Print Page - Joule Thief

Title: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 20, 2008, 03:07:58 AM

Can anyone of you electronics guys answer a question for me concerning the Joule Thief? OK my question is this:
The plans I have call for a 1k resistor. From everything I have learned in electronics thus far, resistors limit the flow and dissipate overage as heat. This seems wasteful to me since the idea of this device is to improve efficiency, as in use all or most of the available energy in a battery or similar system. I am wondering why the resistor is needed? If it gets "warm" at all it is wasting power correct? Is this required to protect the transistor?

I would really appreciate any input here as this is my first Joule Thief. I know they have been around a while and I have a pretty good idea on how they work, at least in relation to the lighting of LEDs. I am also going to experiment with these using supercaps as the power source both with, and without batteries. This will all be tied into my work with earth batteries from which I can already light an LED.

If I need the resistor to protect the transistor, then fine, that's the way it is. It just seems a little counter intuitive from my limited electronics knowledge at this point. Thank you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: capthook on November 20, 2008, 04:11:47 AM

I=V/R : Amps = Voltage / Resistance

A small battery (AA, A,C,D cells) can push over 1.0 amps. An LED or transistor often can't handle 1.0 amp. (check the rating on the package) So you can either: reduce voltage or increase resistance to lower your amps and protect your component. Increasing resistance by adding a resistor is easier (and usually more efficient) than reducing voltage. Your resistor value will be determined by your voltage and how many amps you can safely draw using the I=V/R equation. Resistors are in fact lossy components, but the losses are minuscule in low-power operations and required to keep your other components from frying.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: capthook on November 20, 2008, 04:21:18 AM

Not familiar with the joule thief - sounds like it's a voltage booster?

If you are trying to increase the voltage of your output, you could design a simple voltage doubler (4x, 8x etc) by using a circuit like the attached pic. and/or google voltage doubler.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Yucca on November 20, 2008, 06:10:11 AM

Hi Bill,

You should get good performance using 1 Farad supercap and a joule thief. I have a few 1 Farad 5.5V caps and just running straight into a white 3V LED it lights for quite a while.

I think IÂ´ll have a go at building one too, it may make a good quick chargeup minilamp for nightime paper doc reading etc.

IÂ´m not sure which circuit youÂ´re referencing but IÂ´ll build something like this (IÂ´ll probably end up using different tranny and core):
http://www.bigclive.com/joule.htm

circuit from that page:
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi280.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fkk164%2Fbigclivedotcom%2Fjoule6.jpg&hash=aaca5c639e833ac964b7bf9bf06300dfceec9c6e)

I think the 1K resistor is just there to limit the base current on the transistor, which should only be a miniscule current, certainly not enough to cause any noticable heating. So yes itÂ´s as you first thought to protect the transistor base from getting a heavy hit from the trigger coil.

IÂ´ll be posting pics and run times for my circuit it will be interesting to compare results with you.

Yucca.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on November 20, 2008, 07:30:09 AM

Hi Bill,

Attached is a Joule Thief circuit that uses less current to the base of the transistor.
The resistor can be very high in value, thus less energy is dissipated through the resistor.

Groundloop.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on November 20, 2008, 11:24:31 AM

@all

How many turns of bifilar you used for the coil?

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: pese on November 20, 2008, 12:32:44 PM

HERE SOM HELP for Beginners.

simply electronic schematics

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=z7ABqJ1CKww&feature=related Resistor LED
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=SvqvRNt4fBU&feature=related Capacitors
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=WAZMjLMSd2o&feature=related Transitors
NEWS:

i have Links up to Univrity study - i any need this . please place an messy

PESE

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Yucca on November 20, 2008, 01:04:35 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on November 20, 2008, 11:24:31 AM
@all

How many turns of bifilar you used for the coil?

Jesus

Hi Jesus,

I'm using 22 turns of 30 awg wire.

Yucca.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on November 20, 2008, 01:07:32 PM

Thank you pese!
Thank you yucca!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Yucca on November 20, 2008, 01:29:30 PM

@Groudloop, I will also try your mod of the thief to compare it to what I've built.

@Bill & All,

OK, I've completed my first joule thief as per the circuit I referenced above except I've used a 2N3904 instead of the BC part. My apologies to all for the poor picture quality, I had to use a webcam and it doesn't have focus on it :'(.

I tried to wire it up without labelling the coil wires to begin with and did not wire it up right so it took longer than it should have. Maybe I shouldn't have had that pre teatime beer!

The scope shot is accross the LED when the supercap was at about 0.7V. It shows 3V peaks at about 480kHz

Note:
When I charge the supercap up to 5v and let it run it discharges fairly briskly to about 1V and then slows down, on the scope you can see long coil on times at the higher voltages so the circuit will need modding for a higher working voltage range.

Yucca.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Yucca on November 20, 2008, 01:42:29 PM

@Jesus
I should have said I used 22 bifilar turns so thats 44 turns of copper in total.

@All
After looking at the posted pohto of the circuit I can't see the 1k res (its under the orange wire) and can only just see the tranny to the right of the LED. I am charging my batteries for my better camera as I type and will post a better photo tomorrow.

Yucca.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on November 20, 2008, 01:45:29 PM

you guys should check out amigo's joule thief post over a energeticforum.com
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/1170-ssg-joule-thief-other.html
he showed a simple modification to the joule thief that runs at 14mA if i recall.
with the proper selection of components, it doesn't even budge my 0-500mA analog ammeter.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 20, 2008, 03:01:07 PM

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=gTAqGKt64WM (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=gTAqGKt64WM)

@ All:

Wow, thank you all for your responses. Above is the video posted by Innovation Station on another topic that I am using for my thief. I am using a .825" OD x .500" ID x .250" thick ferrite toroid salvaged from a computer monitor. I wrapped the coil (bifilar) using 22 ga. solid wire (insulated) with 18 turns. (9 wraps). I don't recall what the transistor is on the video but I will watch it again and write it down and try to get from Radio Shack. (Only local source here)

I am on my way to work but I will respond in more detail to as many of the posts as I can when I get back.

I really appreciate all of your posts. For those not familiar with the joule thief, watch the above video as I believe it explains it really well.

Thanks again to all who answered me.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 20, 2008, 06:50:13 PM

@ All:

I am back now, having purchased a few 2N3904 transistors. I was not sure if it called for stranded wire, or solid. I wrapped the first one in solid as it was all I had. I now bought some stranded 22 ga. and I will use that on one of my other ferrites. I am building the first one per the video. Then, I will try Groundloop's circuit.

@ Yucca:

Yes, that circuit looks pretty much like what I am building. Thanks for the info and also for posting your scope shot. I am also glad to hear this will work with supercaps. A while ago, when I first read about the joule thief, some said this only exploited a chemical cell battery due to the nature of their construction. Now I see that it is pulsing the energy which I thought would work with supercaps, and you said it does, so that is good news. I really appreciate your help.

@ Wilby:

Thanks, I will check that out also.

@ pesse:

Thank you also. I found some electronic engineering classes online videos from MIT which I have been watching. They are each an hour lecture by Dr. Walter Lewin and so far, I have watched 12 of them or so. Almost like going to MIT for free. In one of them, he says his one class costs his students over $20,000! (USD) If you, or anyone else is interested, let me know and I will post some links. I have learned more from the helpful folks on here, and from the video courses, than I have learned from reading (and re-reading) my 4 electronics textbooks.

If I have left anyone out, I am sorry. I got a much larger response than I anticipated. I will begin soldering my circuit in a few minutes. If it works ok....meaning if I don't screw anything up, I will shoot some video and post it on youtube with a link posted here.

This stuff is so much fun and, like most things in my life, the more I learn, the more I realize there is to learn.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 21, 2008, 12:57:50 AM

So far so good. I will have two joule thief's here in a bit. One with stranded wire, one with solid.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 21, 2008, 01:12:11 AM

i have used as low as 7 turns and lit 45 leds

the resisitor is nessary it is your freq... it chokes the first coil down and saturates the core ;) ;D

ist

l8r 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 21, 2008, 01:51:04 AM

@ IST:

Thank you. These things are great are they not? Such a neat little, simple device to help us totally drain our batteries. Or, to use in other experiments...................

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on November 21, 2008, 07:59:15 AM

Thanks to all

I made my first functionable Joule Thief.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 21, 2008, 09:51:48 AM

here is my 7 trun tiny jouel theif powering 45 super bright leds in my grow lite design ....

there verry cool lil units ;)

i have built about 60 of thease units... ;D in many diffrent configs....

i have made a unit that powers led flash lights... :) it is a module that takes the place of 2 batteries ...

it actually seams to lite the light almost as long from 1 battery as 3 8)

ist

@yucca thank you ... your scope shot confirms EVERTHING ;)

i never bothered to scope it ..... lol

;)

great work..... ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Thaelin on November 21, 2008, 10:12:29 AM

Hi bill:
Here is a link to get the beginning of all of it. This is a set of on line lectures of many
different subjects. At the bottom of the list is a link to see all 3200+ videos. These are
made possible by the gov of india. Lots there to see.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Dq8blTmSA&feature=channel

thaelin

I found one on how the three phase motors work. In depth.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 22, 2008, 12:27:05 AM

@ Thaelin:

Thanks for the link. I will check them out...I have a lot to learn and I love learning.

Can anyone tell me how to tell the difference from the emitter and collector on the 2N3904 transistor? I made my first joule thief and it does not work for some reason...yes, I'm sure it is something I did, or didn't do correctly. I think I may have a polarity problem as the instructions indicate the collector and emitter but do not say which is which. I am not talking about the middle lead, that is cool. It is the ones on either end I am not sure about. Thanks.

Also, here are some links to the Dr. Walter Lewin, MIT lecture series. These are great, check them out.

http://www.learnerstv.com/course.php?cat=Physics (http://www.learnerstv.com/course.php?cat=Physics)

http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Physics/8-01Physics-IFall1999/VideoLectures/ (http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Physics/8-01Physics-IFall1999/VideoLectures/)

http://freescienceonline.blogspot.com/2006_07_01_archive.html (http://freescienceonline.blogspot.com/2006_07_01_archive.html)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on November 22, 2008, 12:33:45 AM

@pirate

The correct definition could be this one:

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 22, 2008, 12:44:12 AM

Jesus:

Thank you!! The info for the 2N is right there, exactly what I needed. I really appreciate your response.

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: capthook on November 22, 2008, 02:10:14 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on November 22, 2008, 12:27:05 AM
Also, here are some links to the Dr. Walter Lewin, MIT lecture series. These are great, check them out.

http://www.learnerstv.com/course.php?cat=Physics (http://www.learnerstv.com/course.php?cat=Physics)

http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Physics/8-01Physics-IFall1999/VideoLectures/ (http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Physics/8-01Physics-IFall1999/VideoLectures/)

http://freescienceonline.blogspot.com/2006_07_01_archive.html (http://freescienceonline.blogspot.com/2006_07_01_archive.html)

Bill

Thanks for the links! I had seen a few videos of his lectures - and now there's vids of the entire course to absorb.

He is the mad professor type that teaches with enthusiasm that makes the learning even more interesting.

It's resources like these that make me still ohh-and-aah with wonder at the marvel of the internet.

:)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on November 22, 2008, 03:52:20 PM

I thanked you for those links in a PM Bill.

Don't know if it got through tho, due to a browser glitch.

Thanks also to and Thaelin and jesus for the instructional info.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 22, 2008, 08:24:51 PM

@ Cap:

Yes, I received your thanks via pm. No thanks needed. I got the first link from someone on here about 6 months ago. From there, I found the others. I was so happy to get this information then, and I am glad to pass it on now. I believe that is what this site is all about.....or should be. We all should exchange knowledge when we can.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Yucca on November 22, 2008, 09:31:24 PM

Just some thoughts on this:

The thinnest wire I have is 30awg, I think if you use thinner wire then the average current consumption will go down and the LED will stay just as bright. If you want to use thicker wire then you can use more LEDs in parallel without upping current draw. The drive coil takes the current, the coil gauge needs balancing to the LED draw. If itÂ´s too thick gauge then you use power and the LED wonÂ´t get any brighter.

I will try and unwind a cheap minispeaker coil out of a broken kids toy that IÂ´ve seen kicking around the living room. I think maybe you could go REAL thin and up the number of turns a little on the drive side of the coil to make it much more efficient.

I have also had the thought of using the transistor case for the coil form using very thin wire with a superglue spot to start and finish the coil and decreasing the number of turns on the trigger coil to do away with the base resistor completely. Then it would just be 1 tranny, 1 LED and some really thin wire. Maybe the ultimate minimalist joule thief :)

Yucca.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 22, 2008, 09:59:21 PM

@ Yucca:

Sounds good. Go for it and let us know what happens.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on November 23, 2008, 02:02:32 AM

Quote from: Yucca on November 22, 2008, 09:31:24 PM
Just some thoughts on this:

The thinnest wire I have is 30awg, I think if you use thinner wire then the average current consumption will go down and the LED will stay just as bright. If you want to use thicker wire then you can use more LEDs in parallel without upping current draw. The drive coil takes the current, the coil gauge needs balancing to the LED draw. If itÂ´s too thick gauge then you use power and the LED wonÂ´t get any brighter.

I will try and unwind a cheap minispeaker coil out of a broken kids toy that IÂ´ve seen kicking around the living room. I think maybe you could go REAL thin and up the number of turns a little on the drive side of the coil to make it much more efficient.

I have also had the thought of using the transistor case for the coil form using very thin wire with a superglue spot to start and finish the coil and decreasing the number of turns on the trigger coil to do away with the base resistor completely. Then it would just be 1 tranny, 1 LED and some really thin wire. Maybe the ultimate minimalist joule thief :)

Yucca.

heres some data on different cores and turns
http://www.prc68.com/I/LED.shtml#BO

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: spinner on November 23, 2008, 03:40:55 AM

Hmm, this circuit (a very basic transistor oscillator with an inductive coupling) is called "The Joule Thief"? Lol, I can assure you it's more like a "Joule waster"...

Yes, it works with only a few (easy to get or make) components, but that's about all it can do...
It actually works as a (quite inefficient) DC to AC/frequency converter, wasting at least half of the Energy available.

Maybe it's the rather low input voltage where LED is still working that fascinates you?

There are serial (three/four pin "transistor like") components on the market, which allows you >85% efficiency (DC/DC chips, usually needing only a few external low-tech components to work). They all beat this circuit (in efficiency) at least by the factor of two... And they're still not Unity.

Joule Thief? Yeah, sure...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on November 23, 2008, 08:46:57 AM

@spinner

Quote from: spinner on November 23, 2008, 03:40:55 AM
Hmm, this circuit (a very basic transistor oscillator with an inductive coupling) is called "The Joule Thief"? Lol, I can assure you it's more like a "Joule waster"...

Yes, it works with only a few (easy to get or make) components, but that's about all it can do...
It actually works as a (quite inefficient) DC to AC/frequency converter, wasting at least half of the Energy available.

Maybe it's the rather low input voltage where LED is still working that fascinates you?

There are serial (three/four pin "transistor like") components on the market, which allows you >85% efficiency (DC/DC chips, usually needing only a few external low-tech components to work). They all beat this circuit (in efficiency) at least by the factor of two... And they're still not Unity.

Joule Thief? Yeah, sure...

I built a joule thief circuit " http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg139345#msg139345 "
And as today it is still working. It lights 4 leds with a 1.5v battery that only has 0.35volts left.
also if I connect a 0.00v AA battery, it charges it by increments of 0.01v every three hours.

Just build it and see for yourself. The schematic is included.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Yucca on November 23, 2008, 09:19:36 AM

Quote from: spinner on November 23, 2008, 03:40:55 AM
Hmm, this circuit (a very basic transistor oscillator with an inductive coupling) is called "The Joule Thief"? Lol, I can assure you it's more like a "Joule waster"...

Yes, it works with only a few (easy to get or make) components, but that's about all it can do...
It actually works as a (quite inefficient) DC to AC/frequency converter, wasting at least half of the Energy available.

Maybe it's the rather low input voltage where LED is still working that fascinates you?

There are serial (three/four pin "transistor like") components on the market, which allows you >85% efficiency (DC/DC chips, usually needing only a few external low-tech components to work). They all beat this circuit (in efficiency) at least by the factor of two... And they're still not Unity.

Joule Thief? Yeah, sure...

I would agree that although it operates on low voltages it burns more current in the coil chargeup than is captured as BEMF by the LED, but I think if you make the coil out of very thin wire then more efficiency can be had, the coil gauge will need to be matched to the load. Basically up the gauge until the LED stops getting brighter. Or maybe make a very high impedance coil with exceptionally fine wire and many more turns and have a high voltage and incredibly low current light the LED, a bit like a Stiffler SEC. In this scheme the trigger coil ratio will need to be lowered so as not to upset the transistor base.

But it is in it's current form a bit of a Joule waster as you put it, but as I see it plenty of room for improvement.

I think the circuit is a good thing to play with because it helps the experimenter gain a more intuitive understanding for electronics than just buying a 80% efficiency DC-DC converter. The DC-DC converter packages you speak of can any of them operate down to 0.3V input voltage?

Yucca.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: spinner on November 23, 2008, 11:31:13 AM

Quote
I built a joule thief circuit " http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg139345#msg139345 "
And as today it is still working. It lights 4 leds with a 1.5v battery that only has 0.35volts left.
also if I connect a 0.00v AA battery, it charges it by increments of 0.01v every three hours.

Just build it and see for yourself. The schematic is included.
Jesus

Ok, empty batteries still have some juice left (chemical potential) before they're really dead. (as no output current).
The internal resistance of the battery rises tremendously, while the electrolyte decayes...

Measure the voltage of your battery in circuit. Measure unloaded battery with a DMM. Any difference? Use scope to see the waveforms in the circuit,... Digital V-meter is a nice instrument, but has some limitations... You cannot measure pulses of any kind...

You can try using a charged el. cap instead of the battery. Or, use a (low ohm) resistor divider connected to a good battery () and try your circuit (setting up the output at 0,35V). Add filter cap,...

Ah, I see. This circuit "sucks energy" from otherwise "dead" batteries (the ones considered empty after the normal use). So it actually is a Joule Thief...

@Yucca
Any component in this circuit is lossy. Especially semiconductors. Therefore, this circuit cannot be OU.
But it's interesting and educational to play with, indeed.
It may pump the energy from somewhere... ;)

Yes, DC/DC circuits need much more than 0,35V. This circuit, too. Transistor cannot operate with CE voltage that low, but with suitable inductive coupling and a voltage superposition while oscillating it obviously works...

I'll leave all the practical and useful solutions to you, guys!
Cheers!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on November 23, 2008, 11:39:17 AM

Quote from: spinner on November 23, 2008, 03:40:55 AM
Hmm, this circuit (a very basic transistor oscillator with an inductive coupling) is called "The Joule Thief"? Lol, I can assure you it's more like a "Joule waster"...

Yes, it works with only a few (easy to get or make) components, but that's about all it can do...
It actually works as a (quite inefficient) DC to AC/frequency converter, wasting at least half of the Energy available.

Maybe it's the rather low input voltage where LED is still working that fascinates you?

There are serial (three/four pin "transistor like") components on the market, which allows you >85% efficiency (DC/DC chips, usually needing only a few external low-tech components to work). They all beat this circuit (in efficiency) at least by the factor of two... And they're still not Unity.

Joule Thief? Yeah, sure...

ummm... thanks Captain Obvious....

the serial component you speak of are not more efficient, and for sure not by a factor of 2, as tested here...
http://www.talkingelectronics.com/projects/LEDTorchCircuits/LEDTorchCircuits-P1.html

all that aside, my JT lamp uses 3x2 led's 3.3V 19mA each. 310mA drain @1.5V (81%)
now if you buck it instead of boost, and feed the "extra" V back to the smoothing capacitor, gets you closer to 90% efficient.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on November 23, 2008, 12:46:18 PM

@all

I put a capacitor 2200uf 50v to the circuit and after an hour it was filled with 2.44volts. The thing is that it gets empty again somehow and it start it all over again.

The strangest thing is that it is filled with the same battery and circuit. The battery now oscillates between 0.35 and 0.44 volts. I peeled the battery cover to diferenciate it from the other batteries I have.

When I put it back to the circuit, it took about 10 seconds to light the four LDs again without the capacitor.

?????

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 24, 2008, 06:13:19 AM

Quote from: spinner on November 23, 2008, 03:40:55 AM
Hmm, this circuit (a very basic transistor oscillator with an inductive coupling) is called "The Joule Thief"? Lol, I can assure you it's more like a "Joule waster"...

Yes, it works with only a few (easy to get or make) components, but that's about all it can do...
It actually works as a (quite inefficient) DC to AC/frequency converter, wasting at least half of the Energy available.

Maybe it's the rather low input voltage where LED is still working that fascinates you?

There are serial (three/four pin "transistor like") components on the market, which allows you >85% efficiency (DC/DC chips, usually needing only a few external low-tech components to work). They all beat this circuit (in efficiency) at least by the factor of two... And they're still not Unity.

Joule Thief? Yeah, sure...

fool yea sure... i bet u are do you get paid to do what you do? :D

it works and whos fault is it if YOU DONT UNDERSTAND!!! WHY IT WORKS.... :D :D :D

lieing through your teeth EH!!

you can run on for a long time ...... run on for a long time ........ sooner or later gotta cut you DOWN! ;)

;D

IST!

well i guess i will have to make a little test ...... 8)

i have 2 24 led rings.... they run off 4 aa batteries each.... i will install a jt in 1 unit and we will mesure the run time from 1 battery......

and we will in the other unit just let it run with 4 batteries and see how long it runs ....

as tesla stated time is gained..... DOES THAT MEAN RUN TIME..... ;D

;D

Title: !
Post by: spinner on November 24, 2008, 07:06:28 AM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 23, 2008, 11:39:17 AM
ummm... thanks Captain Obvious....

???

Quote
the serial component you speak of are not more efficient, and for sure not by a factor of 2, as tested here...
http://www.talkingelectronics.com/projects/LEDTorchCircuits/LEDTorchCircuits-P1.html

Yes they are. ;D
Why would they (manufacturers) lie about it? Take, for instance, PR4401. It's efficiency is declared under certain conditions, and it can provide a continuous power at #82% (ENERGY EFFICIENCY)!. Try to adopt the circuit discussed in this thread to the same conditions (add rectifying/smoothing, etc..), and see how it will perform....

Or, take a two identical supercaps charged to the same Voltage, and see how long the LEDs will work with both circuits.... Or, find an equivalent serial ic circuit with a PWM output capability... Or,... Whatever...
You're aware that we're comparing a +50 years old electro-tech components against a few years old? I'm sure there's at least some improvement being made....

BTW, Thanks for providing the link... It is a good text, telling a lot about LEDs and suitable LV driving circuits...

As you may have noticed, the author never claims OU. And the only efficiency he's talking about is based on a "personal" light intensity perceptions (not correct measurements). Need I say more?

Quote
all that aside, my JT lamp uses 3x2 led's 3.3V 19mA each. 310mA drain @1.5V (81%)
now if you buck it instead of boost, and feed the "extra" V back to the smoothing capacitor, gets you closer to 90% efficient.

Thanks.. Can you provide a circuit schematics and description/details of a measuring procedure?
The "extra smoothing cap" ALWAYS lowers the combined circuit efficiency... Voltage without current cannot do much work...

OK, i admitted before that we're "not looking through the same glasses"...

Cheers!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 24, 2008, 07:40:50 AM

i appolige spinner

i dont mean to be rude bro

i want my point across properly ...

this is one of the simplest cavatition devices.... ever

;)

once understood

well

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: spinner on November 24, 2008, 07:41:27 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on November 24, 2008, 06:13:19 AM

fool yea sure... i bet u are do you get paid to do what you do? :D

it works and whos fault is it if YOU DONT UNDERSTAND!!! WHY IT WORKS.... :D :D :D

lieing through your teeth EH!!

you can run on for a long time ...... run on for a long time ........ sooner or later gotta cut you DOWN! ;)

;D

IST!

well i guess i will have to make a little test ...... 8)

i have 2 24 led rings.... they run off 4 aa batteries each.... i will install a jt in 1 unit and we will mesure the run time from 1 battery......

and we will in the other unit just let it run with 4 batteries and see how long it runs ....

as tesla stated time is gained..... DOES THAT MEAN RUN TIME..... ;D

;D

Ahh...Ohh.. Geee, thanks, IST!

I feel honored, I finally got attention from the top FE scientist, and the most productive inventor of all times!

Yes, majesty?

Oh, please please please, let me understand....
::)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 24, 2008, 07:49:25 AM

Quote from: spinner on November 24, 2008, 07:41:27 AM
Ahh...Ohh.. Geee, thanks, IST!

I feel honored, I finally got attention from the top FE scientist, and the most productive inventor of all times!

Yes, majesty?

Oh, please please please, let me understand....
::)

now your being an ass

why?

do you think this sh!t dont work....

hummmm i must laugh ....

how much power do you want ;) :)

lol lol !!!

ist

walk the path ..... or pave your own.... im still walking.... my path :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on November 24, 2008, 08:40:07 AM

@all

The circuit is just an efficient way to spend the energy left on an almost dead battery. It is not overunity.
It is still working, but the light is very dim now.
I connected it to an air energy receiver I built and the energy receiver only gets now 0.24v connected to the joule thief.
It does not turn the LEDs on.

Thank you all!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 24, 2008, 09:32:26 AM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on November 24, 2008, 08:40:07 AM
@all

The circuit is just an efficient way to spend the energy left on an almost dead battery. It is not overunity.
It is still working, but the light is very dim now.
I connected it to an air energy receiver I built and the energy receiver only gets now 0.24v connected to the joule thief.
It does not turn the LEDs on.

Thank you all!

Jesus

there is only 1 way this can be proven true or false ....

a run time test .... 2 batteries... power 1 led how long? brand new.... and 2 batteries of the same brand new with a joule theif power a led how long??

not rocket sience here ....

someone please do the test... is time gained?

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: spinner on November 24, 2008, 10:02:20 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on November 24, 2008, 07:49:25 AM
now your being an ass
why?
do you think this sh!t dont work....
hummmm i must laugh ....
how much power do you want ;) :)
lol lol !!!
ist

walk the path ..... or pave your own.... im still walking.... my path :)

Ist, I'm sorry I was acting like an ass... OK, Bro? ;D
I've accepted your apology, now I'm going to smoke a peace pipe... :D

We can always agree to disagree, and I think there's nothing wrong with that...
Cheers!

@Jesus
Thanks for the report!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Paul-R on November 24, 2008, 10:37:57 AM

Quote from: spinner on November 23, 2008, 11:31:13 AM
Ok, empty batteries still have some juice left (chemical potential) before they're really dead...

...remembering that if you put them in a charger, they often charge up again, whatever it
says on the side of the battery.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Freezer on November 24, 2008, 02:10:27 PM

Quote from: Paul-R on November 24, 2008, 10:37:57 AM
...remembering that if you put them in a charger, they often charge up again, whatever it
says on the side of the battery.

http://www.hammacher.com/publish/75357.asp

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 24, 2008, 02:12:06 PM

Quote from Spinner:

"As you may have noticed, the author never claims OU."

Yes, and I never did either. I started this topic to learn about the joule thief and I have been learning a lot. This is just a tool that I believe can be used in other systems to possibly achieve ou. I will be using this with my earth batteries, which to me is already free energy, and some supercaps.

I find this topic very educational as I never knew there were so many variations utilizing different transistors and different size wire and ferrites. I have a lot to play with now for some time to come. I really appreciate all of you that posted all of the great information here. Thank you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: spinner on November 24, 2008, 02:39:16 PM

Quote from: Paul-R on November 24, 2008, 10:37:57 AM
...remembering that if you put them in a charger, they often charge up again, whatever it
says on the side of the battery.

Hi, Paul!
Yes, It's possible to "recharge" non-rechargeable batteries... Kind of.. ;)

The truth is, while one can "revitalize" the battery to even a nominal voltage, such battery is actually not charged (at best it can give some 10% of the original capacity).
Simply because the electrochemical process with common type batteries is not reversible (chemical energy is converted to electricity, but you can't do it in reverse - converting electricity to a chemical potential).

Be carefull if you will experiment with this - charging an "non-chargeable" battery is a hazardous business (the label on the battery is saying so!)
I can confirm - I mistakenly put a NiMh and an alkaline AA battery to charge overnight - luckilly, no fire, only melted plastic, acid fumes and a mess in the morning...

Freezer provided a link :
>>
The Alkaline Battery Charger.
This is the battery charger that can revitalize standard alkaline batteries up to 10 times--verified after rigorous testing by the Hammacher Institute--enabling you to re-deploy previously useless alkaline AAAA, AAA, AA, C, N, D, 6- and 9-volt batteries. It can aso re-charge rechargeable alkaline manganese, titanium, NiCd and NiMH batteries. It uses a sophisticated microprocessor and proprietary charging technology to sense battery types and their conditions prior to charging. It can charge up to four batteries at one time, regardless of the type or size. A built-in voltmeter measures the strength of each battery prior to re-charging and displays the increasing voltage level with four LEDs; charging times vary depending upon the type of bat tery and its current level of charge. Plugs into AC. 2" H x 8 1/2" L x 5 1/2" D. (2 1/4 lbs.)

Item 75357 ................... $69.95
Available for Immediate Shipment.
<<
It says this device can revitalize alkaline batteries up to 10 times...
If the device would really work as claimed, it would be available in any store...

Any experience with this device?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Yucca on November 24, 2008, 03:38:17 PM

Most chemical to electricity process I know of is reversible because it usually involves simple ion transport through electrolyte.

This guy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDwMxISYojM

Says:
The main difference between alkaline cells and NiMh or NiCd is the physical seal. NiMh and NiCd are both alkaline cells also, the electrolyte in both types is alkaline. In fact alkaline cells usually contain NiCd or NiMh electrolyte sludge.

I myself have achieved almost full capacity from used alkalines by charging REAL slow using a current limiting supply (set to ~20mA). It also helps if you put a Stiffler SEC avramenko output (same polarity as charge source) ontop of the main charge current, it seems to help encourage the reverse ion flow by shaking the electrolyte a little.

A crude method of recharging alkalines at home is to take a normal NiMh charger and put it on a time switch set 15min on 45min off cycling for 24 hrs. But beware you may find some brands that leak more than others. For example I have found Duracell to have terribly leaky seals using this method and awoke to find a small blue pool of crud on the bathroom counter top. I wouldn't worry too much about doing this, from my experience the worst you can do is get electrolyte leakage on your charger so use flyleads and clips and put the cell in a soap dish or something for troublefree recharge experiments.

Yucca.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: spinner on November 24, 2008, 03:57:00 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on November 24, 2008, 02:12:06 PM
Quote from Spinner:
"As you may have noticed, the author never claims OU."

Yes, and I never did either. I started this topic to learn about the joule thief and I have been learning a lot. This is just a tool that I believe can be used in other systems to possibly achieve ou. I will be using this with my earth batteries, which to me is already free energy, and some supercaps.

I find this topic very educational as I never knew there were so many variations utilizing different transistors and different size wire and ferrites. I have a lot to play with now for some time to come. I really appreciate all of you that posted all of the great information here. Thank you.
Bill

Hi, Bill!
My posts in this thread were just replies to a discussion about "The Joule Thief" circuit.
The only point I was trying to make was that it is not OU, and that today one can find a modern equivalent integrated circuits with much better performance. Sorry, my "professional deformation"... ;) (God knows when was the last time I worked with a single transistor circuit...)

I admitted later that the "Joule Thief" has some real value like a very good educational/experimental aspect. I allmost forgot how fun is it to play with such circuits... :)

Good luck and a lot of fun with your experiments!
(And - if this means anything - I'm firmly convinced that someday someone will find a new way...)

Cheers!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 24, 2008, 04:31:26 PM

@ Spinner:

Can you give an example of an easily obtainable ic that does the same, or similar thing as the joule thief? I would agree that, by its modern design and use of better materials, it should be more efficient. I would like to play with some of these as well just to see. Hopefully, it will be something simple like a 555 timer ic and not some chip with 10,000 other things built into it. I have never seen a video of someone lighting leds with a single AA bat. using an ic but, if this is indeed possible (and not too complicated) I would like to try it and then make a video. Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: spinner on November 24, 2008, 04:47:20 PM

I think this one is one of the easiest... ANY (even "dead") single cell battery (0,9V-2V), IC, inductor, and a LED(s) (it works nicely with a few microHenry SMD "choke"...).. and, it's 80% efficient...

http://www.prema.com/pdf/pr4401.pdf

Yes, it has limitations, allright....

Anyway, there are many DC/DC chip converters on the market, ranging from mW to many Watts of power...

Check out Wilby's link (on page 3?), too...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 24, 2008, 04:55:06 PM

@ Spinner:

Wow, thanks! If I read that correctly, 55 hours off a single AA bat? That sounds pretty efficient to me. Can we find these for sale in small quantities? I have not searched on the net yet but will. My local Radio Shack carries next to nothing in the component dept. I wonder how these would work with the earth batteries? Thanks for posting this.

Bill

Title: Re: !
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 01, 2008, 06:46:13 AM

Quote from: spinner on November 24, 2008, 07:06:28 AM
???Yes they are. ;D
Why would they (manufacturers) lie about it? Take, for instance, PR4401. It's efficiency is declared under certain conditions, and it can provide a continuous power at #82% (ENERGY EFFICIENCY)!. Try to adopt the circuit discussed in this thread to the same conditions (add rectifying/smoothing, etc..), and see how it will perform....

Or, take a two identical supercaps charged to the same Voltage, and see how long the LEDs will work with both circuits.... Or, find an equivalent serial ic circuit with a PWM output capability... Or,... Whatever...
You're aware that we're comparing a +50 years old electro-tech components against a few years old? I'm sure there's at least some improvement being made....

BTW, Thanks for providing the link... It is a good text, telling a lot about LEDs and suitable LV driving circuits...

As you may have noticed, the author never claims OU. And the only efficiency he's talking about is based on a "personal" light intensity perceptions (not correct measurements). Need I say more?

Thanks.. Can you provide a circuit schematics and description/details of a measuring procedure?
The "extra smoothing cap" ALWAYS lowers the combined circuit efficiency... Voltage without current cannot do much work...

OK, i admitted before that we're "not looking through the same glasses"...

Cheers!

yes they are? wanna post your math for this?
you obviously read the link, you referred bill to it... so you must have missed this part about your super efficient pr4401?

"With this we turn to a surface-mount chip that has been designed to carry out the exact same task as circuit B. The chip is called PR4401.
I could not find any sales literature on the internet, but the manufacturer requires 9,000 pieces to be bought at a cost of 36 cents per piece. This comes to $3,240 if you want to incorporate it into your project.
I have described the pro's and con's of this chip in another article "Circuit Tricks" and you should read the features and work out what they really mean.
When you build circuit "B," you will realize the specifications given in the .pdf for the chip, could be improved. We have achieved a supply current of 18mA for an equivalent brightness of 10mA. The chip requires 25mA. So, all the technology in the world has not surpassed a hand-made circuit."

outperforms by a factor of 2 huh?
and i'm gonna fathom a guess that you also missed the 'circuit tricks' article...

"Now we come to a critical analysis of the chip.
1. The data for the chip states it will operate for 55 hours at 33mA, on a single AA alkaline cell, for an end-voltage of 0.9v. This gives a consumption of 1815mAhr. The capacity of an AA alkaline cell is 2400mAhr when taken to a terminal voltage of 0.8v.
This means the chip is using only 75% of the capacity of the cell.
2. The second point to note is the maximum input voltage for the chip. This is 1.9v.
The chip will not trigger or start properly if the supply voltage is above 1.9v.
This is a big limitation. How many projects work from a single cell? If the chip was designed to operate from 2 cells (3v), the terminal voltage (meaning the end-voltage) could be as low as 1v and this would mean each cell could be used to an end-voltage of 0.5v. This would almost double the number of hours per cell, giving a total of more than 200 hours from two cells.
3. The cost of the chip is about 36 cents when buying 9,000 IC's. This is an outlay of more than $3,200 for a single item.
The cost is too high when you consider its function. It should be less than 8 cents. When you see the Chinese using the chip in a project, you know the price is right. I will wait for this to happen.
4. No supplier for the chip could be found on the internet and the other components (inductor and surface-mount white LED) are also difficult to buy as a single item.
I searched the internet for 3 hours and could not find a supplier or price for the IC. I finally had to contact the manufacturer. Their minimum order was 9,000 pieces!!!!
5. The chip shuts down when the cell voltage reaches 0.9v. This is to prevent deep discharge. This is ok for a rechargeable cell as some have a "memory" and should not be fully discharged, but an alkaline cell can be fully used-up before it is thrown away. Why not use the maximum energy from this type of cell?
6. Their .pdf document for the PR4401 had a number of technical inaccuracies and I wrote to them with the corrections. Up to this point in time, I have not received a reply!!"

limitations indeed. and you think this is one of the 'easiest'?, you can't even buy them, unless you want to drop a couple grand... i guess it also says something about taking datasheets at face value, why would they lie? dunno, maybe cause they are trying to sell them... come on captain obvious, that one is obvious. says something about actually doing the experiment and taking your own measurements, need i say more?

btw, thanks for letting us all know that a simple blocking oscillator is not OU, even though no one claimed it was... captain obvious strikes again ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Trino Cularoid on December 01, 2008, 12:06:43 PM

PR4401 (http://www.ak-modul-bus.de/cgi-bin/iboshop.cgi?showd270!0,115756184917805,PR4401) (Google translation (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ak-modul-bus.de%2Fcgi-bin%2Fiboshop.cgi%3Fshowd270!0%2C115756184917805%2CPR4401&sl=de&tl=en))
One Volt LED (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=get201)
[all links above]

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Thaelin on December 01, 2008, 02:00:44 PM

This one's for Willy:
Since you like to flip the bone, here is you one.

Just couldn't help my self. ;D

If its too bold stephan, just delete it.

thaelin

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 01, 2008, 02:06:42 PM

thanks for your stunningly helpful comment... what an amazing contribution to the discussion at hand ::)
yeah thaelin, if you found any mistakes in my comments please feel free to mention where.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 01, 2008, 02:15:11 PM

Hey, I finally had some time and rewired my Joule thief and it works great! It is running a large ultra bright led from a single AA bat. and it is what I would call bright. (Very bright) I used the 2N3904 transistor for this one but I will fool around with some of the others that you guys mentioned. I had wired the wires from the ferrite incorrectly. Instead of connecting 2 wires together, one from each side of the toroid, I had connected 2 from the same side and it did not work. (Duh)

We are having an ice storm here today but, when I get the time, I will test this out on my earth battery to see if it works the same as with the AA.

I really appreciate all of the information supplied here from you guys. From what I have read here, and on the net, these have been around for some time. what I don't understand is...if I were designing and marketing a small flashlight of some kind, why would I not add this circuit to it so it could run longer and on "dead" batteries? Seems to me to be a good selling point. I know the transistor is pulsing the power and now I wonder what else might also run successfully on pulsed power as well? Probably not a clock. Small motors maybe? Little fans like computer fans?

I know it does not take all that much to impress me these days, but I really like this circuit.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 01, 2008, 02:20:05 PM

nice job bill! success is always fun :)
keep playing with it and remember, newer is not always better. ;)

Title: Re: !
Post by: Walter Hofmann on December 01, 2008, 03:51:02 PM

Hi all,
maybe you can try this IC from linear
http://www.linear.com/pc/downloadDocument.do?navId=H0,C1,C1003,C1094,C1766,P80613,D26511
greetings
walt

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on December 01, 2008, 06:46:13 AM
yes they are? wanna post your math for this?
you obviously read the link, you referred bill to it... so you must have missed this part about your super efficient pr4401?

"With this we turn to a surface-mount chip that has been designed to carry out the exact same task as circuit B. The chip is called PR4401.
I could not find any sales literature on the internet, but the manufacturer requires 9,000 pieces to be bought at a cost of 36 cents per piece. This comes to $3,240 if you want to incorporate it into your project.
I have described the pro's and con's of this chip in another article "Circuit Tricks" and you should read the features and work out what they really mean.
When you build circuit "B," you will realize the specifications given in the .pdf for the chip, could be improved. We have achieved a supply current of 18mA for an equivalent brightness of 10mA. The chip requires 25mA. So, all the technology in the world has not surpassed a hand-made circuit."

outperforms by a factor of 2 huh?
and i'm gonna fathom a guess that you also missed the 'circuit tricks' article...

"Now we come to a critical analysis of the chip.
1. The data for the chip states it will operate for 55 hours at 33mA, on a single AA alkaline cell, for an end-voltage of 0.9v. This gives a consumption of 1815mAhr. The capacity of an AA alkaline cell is 2400mAhr when taken to a terminal voltage of 0.8v.
This means the chip is using only 75% of the capacity of the cell.
2. The second point to note is the maximum input voltage for the chip. This is 1.9v.
The chip will not trigger or start properly if the supply voltage is above 1.9v.
This is a big limitation. How many projects work from a single cell? If the chip was designed to operate from 2 cells (3v), the terminal voltage (meaning the end-voltage) could be as low as 1v and this would mean each cell could be used to an end-voltage of 0.5v. This would almost double the number of hours per cell, giving a total of more than 200 hours from two cells.
3. The cost of the chip is about 36 cents when buying 9,000 IC's. This is an outlay of more than $3,200 for a single item.
The cost is too high when you consider its function. It should be less than 8 cents. When you see the Chinese using the chip in a project, you know the price is right. I will wait for this to happen.
4. No supplier for the chip could be found on the internet and the other components (inductor and surface-mount white LED) are also difficult to buy as a single item.
I searched the internet for 3 hours and could not find a supplier or price for the IC. I finally had to contact the manufacturer. Their minimum order was 9,000 pieces!!!!
5. The chip shuts down when the cell voltage reaches 0.9v. This is to prevent deep discharge. This is ok for a rechargeable cell as some have a "memory" and should not be fully discharged, but an alkaline cell can be fully used-up before it is thrown away. Why not use the maximum energy from this type of cell?
6. Their .pdf document for the PR4401 had a number of technical inaccuracies and I wrote to them with the corrections. Up to this point in time, I have not received a reply!!"

limitations indeed. and you think this is one of the 'easiest'?, you can't even buy them, unless you want to drop a couple grand... i guess it also says something about taking datasheets at face value, why would they lie? dunno, maybe cause they are trying to sell them... come on captain obvious, that one is obvious. says something about actually doing the experiment and taking your own measurements, need i say more?

btw, thanks for letting us all know that a simple blocking oscillator is not OU, even though no one claimed it was... captain obvious strikes again ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 01, 2008, 09:04:10 PM

@ All:

I decided to post 2 pictures of my joule thief. I forgot to mention that I used a 10mm 28,000 mcd LED (white) which calls for 3.5-4 v and 20 mA to operate. The photo with it illuminated does not let you see the single AA battery but, it is there. I thought it would show up but the led is so bright, my shutter blocked out a lot of light surrounding it.

I just found out Ace hardware is selling a string of Christmas led lights with 36 leds and the transformer for $3.99 US. Heck, I paid almost that much for the 1 led from Radio Shack!!! I am going to pick up some to play with.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 02, 2008, 01:04:03 AM

OK, stupid question time. Does anyone know if you can hook up 2 joule thief circuits in either/or series or parallel? Would the transistors have to be in "sync" for this to work? Or, would this allow an even greater amount of output with even less input? Has this been tried? Yes, you can already tell that I am going to try it unless someone tells me that they did and everything blows up. If it is a good enough explosion, I might try it anyway. These things are so cheap to make, even I can afford to lose one or two of them.

Thanks in advance for not laughing at my questions. And for those of you that did laugh? It's OK, I probably deserve it.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 02, 2008, 02:13:46 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 02, 2008, 01:04:03 AM
OK, stupid question time. Does anyone know if you can hook up 2 joule thief circuits in either/or series or parallel? Would the transistors have to be in "sync" for this to work? Or, would this allow an even greater amount of output with even less input? Has this been tried? Yes, you can already tell that I am going to try it unless someone tells me that they did and everything blows up. If it is a good enough explosion, I might try it anyway. These things are so cheap to make, even I can afford to lose one or two of them.

Thanks in advance for not laughing at my questions. And for those of you that did laugh? It's OK, I probably deserve it.

Bill

i laughed, but only because of the highlighted statement, damn near spit out my soda.
i have never tried hooking 2 in series nor parallel, sorry. if it is a good explosion, let us know so we can have some fun too ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 02, 2008, 02:19:02 AM

@ Wilby:

I will let you know what happens. Thanks. (grin)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on December 02, 2008, 07:15:01 AM

LOL :D

yeah, do let us know what you find when you hook two together...

To be honest, I haven't seen a clear scope shot of what exactly
happens in the Joule thief, and I think such a shot might help...

Of course it depends on how you hook them together... You could
try to use the output of one as the input for the second...
You could try hooking both of them to a capacitor (with diodes)
on the ouput side (in parallel) and see what the cap shows...
And you could even try to put several of the ring cores next
to eachother, around a copper rod or thick wire, and see if the
wire shows oscillations when you hook a meter to it.
Seems to me that, if all Joule thiefs work in phase, the ring
cores should also alternate their circular B fields in phase,
and any A field induction in the rod/wire would also seem to
be in phase, which might just give something interesting.
Or totally not. ;) ;D
Just tossing some wild ideas up into the air here. :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 02, 2008, 12:51:24 PM

Quote from: Koen1 on December 02, 2008, 07:15:01 AM
LOL :D

yeah, do let us know what you find when you hook two together...

To be honest, I haven't seen a clear scope shot of what exactly
happens in the Joule thief, and I think such a shot might help...

Of course it depends on how you hook them together... You could
try to use the output of one as the input for the second...
You could try hooking both of them to a capacitor (with diodes)
on the ouput side (in parallel) and see what the cap shows...
And you could even try to put several of the ring cores next
to eachother, around a copper rod or thick wire, and see if the
wire shows oscillations when you hook a meter to it.
Seems to me that, if all Joule thiefs work in phase, the ring
cores should also alternate their circular B fields in phase,
and any A field induction in the rod/wire would also seem to
be in phase, which might just give something interesting.
Or totally not. ;) ;D
Just tossing some wild ideas up into the air here. :)

if you read the thread, links were provided that show scope shots...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 05, 2008, 12:12:54 PM

pure joy .... what else could i add

i have wired 10 rings from 1 supply .. it could lite hundreds of leds ;)

i have lit 90 leds from 1 aa b4 and 3 rings....

the thing is this .... the transistor only can disapate 1.8 wats.... each ..... as the specs say on the 3904 npn

did someone say add em up ;)

ist

btw i have about 20 more things i did with this lil unit ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 05, 2008, 01:23:11 PM

Cool thread Bill,

Maybe you will recall, I was wondering if we could wire up our NS generators like the joule thief, by twisting the 2 ends of differing metals (5 and 6) together then using the other 2 (the 10's) to make a kind of joule thief circuit which is self starting when wet.

I never did it, because I never brought the generator inside to solder it up when I had an extra transistor hanging around.

I should perhaps take this thought over to the stub bifilar thread, but maybe , if you have another transistor free, you could solder it to a NS gen and get it wet and light those LED lights.

Wow, I am so glad you started this thread. I could do this suggestion in a few days, myself.

Thanks Bill,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 05, 2008, 08:05:55 PM

Hi Jeanna:

Yes, I remember you suggesting this a while back. Actually what I hope to do first, is to go back to the carbon rod and magnesium block and wire the Joule thief to that to see what I can get out of it.

The next step would be to try one of the NS coils.

I suspect, but am not sure yet, that I was getting enough juice out of the electrodes that by using the Joule Thief I should be able to light several superbright leds. We will see.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 05, 2008, 09:06:00 PM

what is the ns coil??? hummm ill build it ;D

lol

just bought another new cam but it is junk too i hope to find a good one yet and when i do lol....

you will see amazing sparks....

all leds i have used were super bright leds 8) bring your shades lol ...

this is the spec sheet .... http://www.besthongkong.com/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=&products_id=34

thease are the leds you see in this flashlight

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Freezer on December 05, 2008, 09:27:12 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on December 05, 2008, 09:06:00 PM
what is the ns coil??? hummm ill build it ;D

lol

just bought another new cam but it is junk too i hope to find a good one yet and when i do lol....

you will see amazing sparks....

all leds i have used were super bright leds 8) bring your shades lol ...

this is the spec sheet .... http://www.besthongkong.com/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=&products_id=34

thease are the leds you see in this flashlight

ist!

NS = Nathan Stubblefield

Nice work on the three joule thief device, very interesting look indeed. ;D What kind of stuff are you getting off the secondary running through the cores?

Try looking at this store -
http://www.dealextreme.com/products.dx/category.410~page.1

They have nice cheap led parts, even up to a 50w led.

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.5766

For the best 5w led, I recommend a cree. They even sell tritium vials. :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 05, 2008, 09:30:00 PM

@ ist:

Wow! Nice photos. All those leds powered from a single AA.....very, very cool.

The NS coil is short for Nathan Stubblefield coil which is a bifilar coil used by Nathan Stubblefield in his earth batteries which powered the telephone system (an original design of his actually more like cell phones as it was wireless) for Murry, KY and illuminated his home and also heated it. All this long before the grid reached his area. This was back in the late 1800's. He was also a friend of Tesla's. For more info....see my topic:

Stubblefield coils (bifilar) and speculations
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=4455.0;topicseen (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=4455.0;topicseen)

and Nathan Stubblefield Earth Battery/Self inducting coil replications
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3500.0;topicseen (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3500.0;topicseen)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 05, 2008, 10:41:55 PM

here is a pic of 45 superbright leds powered from a 7 turn jt the lights that are dim are uv bulbs....

yes i have designed grow lights for use with thease units as well and i did a little digging and im going to develop a nano crystal coating paint for the led lights :D

build it spray it n grow lol ;)

this will be one peice of my amazing high speed grow chamber .. :) another part will be a electrostatic injected tesla coil spark thing E :D

wich if you look to nature.. you will see plants grow best after a thunder storms .. :)

and yet 1 more part of it is my charger tpu deal to keep it runnung 4 FREE free food ?? WHAT.. LOL YEP JUST DROP IT ANY WHERE ON THE PLANET AND LET IT GO OOPS I mean LET IT GROW !!!!!

lol

ist

are we there yet ....... ::)

it aint even christmas yet ..... ;) ;) :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Bob Smith on December 06, 2008, 12:02:22 AM

@ Pirate:
You queried a few days back about the possibility of linking a few Joule Thief units together. I looked at Yucca's scope shot at: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg139195#msg139195 and wondered if the quick drop after each spike was producing radiant energy. If this is the case, then I'm wondering if the idea of sending the output of one to the input of another, and the latter's output to the input of another, and so on perhaps 4 or 5 times, would really kick up your spikes and radiant energy production. (might need beefier transistors in the latter ones)

Now, suppose the final output could be run thru an avramenko plug. Could you in effect light incandescent or fluorescent bulbs with this high freq hi radiant energy - much like was done on Doc Stiffler's thread (recall the original "party trick" lighting the bulb with a single wire underwater). Anyway, something to chew on. As soon as I get time, I'll give it a try.
B

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 06, 2008, 01:53:56 AM

@ ist:

That really is amazing. Why do you need a coating on the leds? Are you trying to filter out a certain wavelength of the light spectrum?

@ Bob Smith:

Yes, this is what I was wondering about. My main concern is that possibly the transistor pulses have to be synced in some way in order to work? I just don't understand enough about this stuff yet. I was planning on linking two Joule Thiefs together just as you said, output of one to input of the other, just to see what happens. If it does multiply, or act like a doubler of some kind, you may be right about the 2nd transistor, I may fry it. But if it seems to work ok and has a good effect...well...the way my mind works is that if we can hook 2 together....what about 3?,6?,10? I am just glad these are cheap and simple to build.

I know Dr. Stiffler was using the Avramenko plug and I was following his work almost from the beginning. I had no idea what this was so I googled it to find out. I had never heard of one until Dr. Stiffler's work and then also I saw Stefan's replications on youtube. Are these plugs easy to make?

I am also familiar with Bedini's work. Are you suggesting that there might be some kind of back emf in these spikes on the scope shot? (Thanks for posting the link to Yucca's post, it was good to see it again now that I built one.))

It really would be something if you could light up a neon or florescent bulb using just a single AA battery wouldn't it?

My local Radio Shack is out of the transistors I was using...I bought the last one last week. when they get more in, I will build more. Right now I only have 2 joule thiefs and actually have not completed the 2nd one as of yet. Once I do....I will try a few things and report back. Thanks for your post.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 06, 2008, 03:23:09 AM

are you sh!tting me.....

lol

i need better proof all wires in the pic ;)

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 06, 2008, 03:30:39 AM

8 watt tube

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 06, 2008, 03:34:48 AM

great work 8)

i never tryed it i wish i would have lol !!

great job just awsome .... 8) 8)

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Bob Smith on December 06, 2008, 09:13:23 AM

@Wilby ...very cool!

@Pirate - I'm a relative neophyte in these things, so I don't have a lot of info to share, and am learning as I go along. I'll respond to your last post as best I can: I really don't know about whether pulses need to be in sync when linking 2 JTs together. I would imgine, though, your transistors would have to be more robust as you progress. You might be able to start with a 2n2222, then maybe a 2n3055 (still not a very robust transistor), and then on to something with higher wattage rating. This is due to the fact that if you get bigger voltage spikes, you have to be able to handle them without getting fried.

As for the AV plug, I believe they simply consist in 2 diodes (or two sets of diodes in series) on your pos and neg outputs, to a single lead. Have a look at Fig. 5 in Strebkov's "Resonance methods of electric power transmission" at: http://www.viesh.ru/Development%20of%20Resonance%20methods%20of%20electric%20power%20transmission.htm Some of the Stiffler SEC replication videos also show the AV plug clearly - just a couple of diodes off the pos and neg output leading to a single transmission line.

As far as BEMF in the scope shots, here's what I'm suggesting. The sharp rise in the voltage spike followed by a very, very rapid decline produces a quickly collapsing magnetic field, followed by inductive kick back (radiant energy?). I believe both Bearden and Bedini, in the Energy from the Vacuum videos speak about radiant energy in Bedini's circuits in this way.

My wife left me a honey-do list today before heading off to work -Christmas tree up in living room, lights on front of house, shopping... If I get time today, I'll work at this as well.

Regarding your remark: "It really would be something if you could light up a neon or florescent bulb using just a single AA battery wouldn't it?" ...Wilby, you da man! (Now, try it with the AV plug! :o)

Have fun!
Bob

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Trino Cularoid on December 06, 2008, 09:57:40 AM

Maybe a little background on the circuit itself (please correct me where inaccurate):

Nowadays, one would probably call it a variant of a boost or step-up DC/DC converter, similar to the more elaborate circuits used in some switched power supplies (like the ones in battery-driven audio devices).

It was, however, already somewhat popular during the tube days. There is an astable and a monostable variant. The astable one was simply a free-running oscillator. The monostable one was used as a synchronized oscillator, for example in frequency dividers. With appropriately chosen components, it can also be made to be another type of blocking oscillator, called squegging (or self-quenching) oscillator that produces pulse trains (apparently then used for transmitters to track wildlife).

The minimal version that uses the capacitances of the semiconductor itself instead of external capacitors seems to have become popular again with the Joule Thief (http://bigclive.com/joule.htm), which is based on this article (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=get201) (<-- this is a link).

The monostable version has also been used by John Bedini (and since he has a strong tube background, I doubt he got it from the LED circuit). The main difference of the variants is where the winding leading to the base of the transistor is connected to (+ or -) and the ratio of the number of turns of the windings (which allows a transistor to be operated in the non-linear part of its characteristic curve).

This is just one way to look at the circuit from a higher level. You can analyze it quite differently also,

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 06, 2008, 11:01:28 AM

@ Wilby:

Wow, that is fantastic!!! In the first shot, I see a small coil there. Is this the joule thief or some small transformer? In your next photo, I see what I recognize to be one of Dr. Stiffler's SEC boards (please correct me if I am wrong) I know that will light a tube but are you able to do it with just the joule thief, or some variant thereof?

I am not concerned with the wires going out of the frame on your pictures. You appear to be a straight shooter on here and, although I am usually suspicious of such things, (especially on youtube) I have no doubt that they are what you say they are.

Can you explain to us what your circuit is so we may replicate it? I think this is incredible. Thanks for posting that.

@ Trino:

Thanks for the explanation. I do not know enough to even begin to try to "correct" you. I have read that these circuits have been around for a while, possibly a long while. I do believe that some of the properties of this circuit have been overlooked for a long while also. I mean, I do not ever remember seeing so many leds or a florescent tube powered by a single AA bat. before....ever. (I mean, over the years, prior to me being on OU dot com) I think sometimes a rediscovery of something put to a different use than intended can be as exciting as an original discovery.

@ Bob:

I agree with you about the transistors...even the 2nd Joule Thief in series might fry the 2nd transistor. Thanks for the info on the av plug, I will check that out. I remember them being pretty simple, I just could not remember how to construct one.

As far as BEMF and the quickly collapsing magnetic field goes, I agree with what you say. I don't know a lot about it but it makes sense. I wonder if a joule thief would drive a Bedini type device if the coil was positioned under the rotating magnets? I have a half-built Bedini motor made from a VCR motor, very low friction bearings. Too many questions, not enough time. Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 06, 2008, 11:59:56 AM

i just got a great hi def cam 8)

now we will see :D

i will be makeing many videos...

and i will be conducting super conductive expairments with nano crystals and bemf as you still call it ::)

i do perfer what tesla called it ;)

HEMF

any how vids start to day ....

ist!

i have many more designs for many things..... 8)

one is super conductive wire coating for copper wires and and the wire shape will be square not round..... thus i have 4 feilds not 1 ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 06, 2008, 12:05:40 PM

ist:

What kind of camera did you get? I need to get another one myself. Was it expensive?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 06, 2008, 12:19:52 PM

it was a little costly it cost 550 cdn it is a sony handy cam hybrid dcr 45

here is a pic of it im impressed with it

so far

ist

btw i made a video last night of my mot sparks ;)

verry colourful... :D

i will make a hi def vid of the same i put an anolog meter on it :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CIwC0pMxQE

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 06, 2008, 01:44:16 PM

@ ist:

Nice camera. I use Sony's too in my work but all analog. I would love to get one like yours.

Nice sparks....looks dangerous, ha ha Thanks for the cam info.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on December 06, 2008, 06:30:59 PM

@WilbyInebriated,

Thank you for sharing.

Please check your circuit drawing again. Is the resistor really in parallel with the coil?

Regards,
Groundloop.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on December 06, 2008, 06:46:55 PM

@WilbyInebriated,

Have you tried to remove the resistor?

If the resistor is in parallel with the coil then all it does is burn energy.

Attached is a drawing of a circuit from a Kodak camera.
As you can see the resistor is in series with the coil.

Groundloop.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on December 06, 2008, 07:18:13 PM

@WilbyInebriated ,

Yes I have built it some years ago. And it did work. :-)

But your circuit drawing is not correct. The resistor is used
to bias the base on the transistor. Without it the oscillator stops.

Regards,
Groundloop.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on December 06, 2008, 07:52:23 PM

@WilbyInebriated,

>> whatever. i'm aware of what the resistor is used for on your schematic. thank you captain obvious.

All I want is the correct drawing of you circuit so that I and other can replicate it. :-)

Have you checked the transformer with your Ohm meter to see how the different coils goes to the pins?

edit: Thanks, the image helps.

Groundloop.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 06, 2008, 07:58:15 PM

deleted

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 06, 2008, 08:05:58 PM

@ groundloop... how did the 1kv caps and the reeds work out 4 ya :D ;D

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on December 06, 2008, 08:26:51 PM

@WilbyInebriated,

Calm down a bit.

@innovation_station,

I will PM you.

Groundloop.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 06, 2008, 08:34:06 PM

deleted

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: maw2432 on December 07, 2008, 07:53:10 AM

What happened? I was really hoping to build a circuit for the kids in my Science class to show them how they could light-up a florescent bulb with a 1.5v battery. Wilby's posts seem to have been deleted. Sorry I missed them. Was it done with a Joule Thief? Anyone have something like that replicated?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: maw2432 on December 07, 2008, 08:10:57 AM

I found an old Kodak funsaver with flash. Do I need to modify the circuit from a Kodak camera? What do I need to do?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on December 07, 2008, 09:44:41 AM

Yeah, what's that with the deleted posts Wilby?

I assume whatever was posted is along the lines of what Groundloop
posted, but with all of it deleted I can't be sure.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 07, 2008, 09:53:19 AM

put it back up bro.... 8)

no time left to piss around....

ist

lol!!! why thank you ;)

no i did not see that nice to know .... i might like to run spell check on a bunch of my posts ........lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gyulasun on December 07, 2008, 11:17:37 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on December 07, 2008, 09:53:19 AM

I WANT TO KNOW HOW YOU WERE ABLE TO DELETE YOUr POSTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AS I HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO FOR OVER 1 YEAR ALREADY!!!!!!!! HUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

WTF!!!

i get 15 min at most to mod my posts than that is it

stephen .............................. got an answer?????

Have not you seen this since then? :

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=4207.msg142351#msg142351

Gyula

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: maw2432 on December 07, 2008, 02:52:13 PM

I found this vid for making some mods to a Kodac fun saver flash circuit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XXfEoDIF0Q

Does anyone have any suggestions on such a modification to light a florescent tube? Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 07, 2008, 03:28:31 PM

i removed my posts because of a couple reasons. mainly the fact that my integrity was immediately questioned, it wasn't even an extraordinary claim, just a simple inverter. old hat to some, but kind of a wonder to the newer hats... then i was informed by someone who didn't even bother to actually build the circuit (which can be built numerous different ways, with various coil configs and 1, 2 or even 3 transistors), that the circuit was wrong, repeatedly. this was done due to this persons 'expertise'. whether or not i knew what a resistor was was also brought under question.
then said person claims to have built one long ago, but keeps pestering me how to build one even though i have already provided a schematic and said that it is simply a gutted flash camera circuit.
all this was followed by this paradox of a claim "All I want is the correct drawing of you circuit so that I and other can replicate it." i continued to try to clarify, even explaining that i had used a schematic program that did not have the symbols i needed so i used what was there to best represent the circuit. hell it only had 2 transformer symbols, 4 pin big and small. i drew out a diagram numbering the transformer pins. i stated it was a 5 pin transformer. but they were too busy thinking there is only one way to do it to even listen, much less understand and comprehend what i was explaining.

if you haven't replicated it how can you be sure it's incorrect? oh yeah, expertise.
strange that someone with such expertise and who had already done this before should need the help of someone he suspects doesn't even know what a resistor is?
then i'm told to calm down... well i'm not interested in playing games with such people. this kind of behavior is why the doc left. this board has absolutely zero moderation and the community at large does zero about it. my only real point in posting it was to keep that fire of discovery by doing going in bill.

Quote from: maw2432 on December 07, 2008, 02:52:13 PM
I found this vid for making some mods to a Kodac fun saver flash circuit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XXfEoDIF0Q
Does anyone have any suggestions on such a modification to light a florescent tube? Thanks.

Bill

that will work fine to light a flouro maw. thanks for finding that. point in fact, that is exactly how the circuit i used is built. try and use an 8 watt bulb or smaller. use a fresh 1.5v battery or 2 ni-cad/ni-mh. i hope the kids have fun!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 07, 2008, 08:54:47 PM

Texas instrument is making a joule thief ic http://www.prnewswire.com/mnr/texasinstruments/32692/

Some will benefited from this invention, it runs from very low power input , earth battery, solar, piezo,etc

Some have already started marketing the product

http://mae.pennnet.com/display_article/342401/32/ARTCL/none/none/1/The-Joule-Thief-harvests-vibration-energy-to-power-devices-in-the-field/

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 07, 2008, 11:41:09 PM

MK1:

Great post. Did you notice that Texas Instruments had the "TM" labeled after the word "Joule thief"? This is great. (not really) How can they trademark a name that has been in the public domain for so many years here on OU dot com as well as other sites? the answer is...they can't. but, they did. I do not believe this would ever stand up to a challenge in court. you can not trademark a name that has already been in the public domain. I am not an attorney but this is my understanding.

Other than that....nice to see mainstream folks are finally using a technology that has been around for a while. Thank you for posting this.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 08, 2008, 12:21:22 AM

Quote from: maw2432 on December 07, 2008, 07:53:10 AM
What happened? I was really hoping to build a circuit for the kids in my Science class to show them how they could light-up a florescent bulb with a 1.5v battery. Wilby's posts seem to have been deleted. Sorry I missed them. Was it done with a Joule Thief? Anyone have something like that replicated?

Bill

I don't know about a fluorescent light but I have made 2 of these cuties. They are great. A bit small. Probably good for little fingers.

I got the design from makezine weekend projects called "make a joule thief" I will try to post a pic here, but whoknows?? with all the newest changes here if it will go. If not try makezine archives. I think the newer one is more complicated.

here goes...

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on December 08, 2008, 12:58:38 AM

@ All

I have got a fluorescent bulb to light but it was a $4 bug zapper and it used 2 AA batteries not 1 AA battery but....just hook up the inside wire to one side of the fluorescent bulb and the outside wire screen to the other side of the bulb and press the button and that's it!

It's a resonating circuit and will light the bulb for awhile until the circuit melts down if you keep it on too long or charge a Cap to hundreds of volts in my experience ;)

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 08, 2008, 01:24:31 AM

@ Jeanna:

Yes, I believe that circuit is very similar if not the same I used in my Joule Thief of which I showed in my pictures a few pages back. I also used the 3904 transistor. Nice to see you here.

I remember you experimenting with the Jule Thief about a year ago in our earth batteries topics. I should have paid more attention back then. Well, better late than never right?

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Freezer on December 08, 2008, 01:40:09 AM

Haven't tried this circuit out yet, but maybe people might give it a try.

http://www.josepino.com/circuits/?fluorescent_light.jpc

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 08, 2008, 01:56:56 AM

Quote from: Freezer on December 08, 2008, 01:40:09 AM
Haven't tried this circuit out yet, but maybe people might give it a try.

http://www.josepino.com/circuits/?fluorescent_light.jpc

thanks freezer. that should be a great help to those that can't get their hands on that specific kodak circuit.
about half the cameras i got for my coil gun were fuji and the other half kodak so it seem to be a fairly popular camera at least where i live.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 08, 2008, 02:05:47 AM

@ Freezer:

Excellent post! Thank you. I am going to have some cool gadgets around my house in a few weeks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 08, 2008, 09:47:20 AM

nice link

8)

im gonna take a few more pics of units i have build i found a bunch more ....... built with the jt ... i left a few to be studied in the city ;D

also

i just built my pwm modded by ME!! lol ! ;)

works much the same as the jt ;D

we ll get there verry soon for now

found my 10 jt unit ... my 4 in 1 unit wich is not working at present...... and my out door solar driven jt security light/yard lighting.... thing..

i will add the pics soon ...

i first must finish my 3 freq pwm gatekeeper redirrector :D 8) curcuit this is designed to hit 2.5hz 5hz and 7.5 hz ;D

;D coils will be tuned to 7.5 .....

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on December 08, 2008, 12:08:02 PM

@All,

Attached is my replication of WilbyInebriated circuit. I got the inverter from a Kodak Funsaver Flash camera.
The only modification I did was adding one 1N4007 diode as shown in the drawing. The tube is a 15 Watt type.
The light output is approx. 1/10 of full brightness. The circuit works as claimed by WilbyInebriated.

@WilbyInebriated,

Reading my posts again, I now see that they could be misinterpreted as critic of your person. That was never my
intention at all. I did indeed build the circuit some years back and I have replicated the circuit with a inverter from a
new camera today. The new circuit was a little different than I remembered. So again, I'm sorry that I hurt your feelings,
that was never planned by me at all. I'm not an armchair theorist, something my web site can prove. I honestly work for
promoting free energy as much as my time and money allow me to do. I'm not on this forum to disturb people to quit.
This can be confirmed by my postings and circuits that I have made. I try my best to post accurate information about
all replica I do. Your circuit is a excellent circuit for energy savings. The light output is just enough bright to be
useful in a mains out situation. I'm sorry to see that you deleted your posts. If you find my former posts in this thread
wrong then I will delete them too on request. My web site is here: http://home.no/ufoufoufoufo/ (It is on a slow server and
can be out sometimes.) I hope we can put this behind us now and move on with free energy research.

Groundloop.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 08, 2008, 01:18:59 PM

@ Groundloop:

Wow, that looks pretty bright to me....nice job. I also respect your post in ref. to Wilby. I think you stated it very well.

Thank you for posting both.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on December 08, 2008, 01:40:15 PM

Bill,

Yes, the light output was much higher than expected from such a small inverter circuit. I measured the circuit
to use 0,4 Ampere from the alkaline battery. The light was on for approx. 2 hours before the battery was empty.

The inverter I made back in 2003 was made from a ferrite transformer found in TV's.
It used a lot more power but was able to lit up one 40 Watt and one 25 Watt fluorescent tubes with only
one wire going to each tube. See attached image. I have the circuit drawing somewhere and can post it if
you want.

Tomorrow I will get some more 15 Watt fluorescent tubes and try to see what happens if we put several of
them in series. Maybe we can get more light with approx. the same current usage?

(EDIT) I found the drawing. The transistors are 2N3055 on heat sink. One fluorescent tube connects to Out 1
and the other to Out 2. No wires is needed on the other ends of the tubes. Circuit runs from 12VDC
and uses approx. 30 to 40 Watt. It is probably possible to connect several tubes in series at each output.

Regards,
Groundloop.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 08, 2008, 02:48:42 PM

Could we make this a closed circuit thief by adding other wire to the toroid not connected to the circuit just wounded wire i got as must as 17 volts from one rectified wire, a second one is giving me the same.

Or for continuous running from earth battery.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 08, 2008, 03:33:33 PM

;D

great work GL

thanks for clearing up the the bs with will ...

guys we are all 1 in the same ;)

im now fully stocked to build many controllers ;D

and i will be ;D

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: maw2432 on December 08, 2008, 08:52:49 PM

I would like to give all a Big Thanks for the great circuit info! I think my students will be impressed and inspired to experiment.

I hope to be replicating this weekend - then do a show and tell in class the following week. The students love to
see things that they thought were impossible. (Me too!!)

BTW it is great to see all the respect for each other that is now being shown here. It makes me want to come back and contribute.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on December 08, 2008, 08:58:56 PM

@ Groundloop:

Hello Groundloop

Very Nice job.
In your circuit #82 resistor what value is it?

Thank You.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 08, 2008, 09:03:12 PM

@groundloop

Just a question.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 08, 2008, 11:20:13 PM

Quote from: Groundloop on December 08, 2008, 12:08:02 PM
@All,

Attached is my replication of WilbyInebriated circuit. I got the inverter from a Kodak Funsaver Flash camera.
The only modification I did was adding one 1N4007 diode as shown in the drawing. The tube is a 15 Watt type.
The light output is approx. 1/10 of full brightness. The circuit works as claimed by WilbyInebriated.

@WilbyInebriated,

Reading my posts again, I now see that they could be misinterpreted as critic of your person. That was never my
intention at all. I did indeed build the circuit some years back and I have replicated the circuit with a inverter from a
new camera today. The new circuit was a little different than I remembered. So again, I'm sorry that I hurt your feelings,
that was never planned by me at all. I'm not an armchair theorist, something my web site can prove. I honestly work for
promoting free energy as much as my time and money allow me to do. I'm not on this forum to disturb people to quit.
This can be confirmed by my postings and circuits that I have made. I try my best to post accurate information about
all replica I do. Your circuit is a excellent circuit for energy savings. The light output is just enough bright to be
useful in a mains out situation. I'm sorry to see that you deleted your posts. If you find my former posts in this thread
wrong then I will delete them too on request. My web site is here: http://home.no/ufoufoufoufo/ (It is on a slow server and
can be out sometimes.) I hope we can put this behind us now and move on with free energy research.

Groundloop.

i owe you an apology groundloop. you were right, i should have just calmed down.
i also want to say that in rereading your posts i think i was doing the same thing i was accusing you of doing, i wasn't listening to what you were trying to say, all i heard was 'wrong'. i had used the only transformer symbol the schematic program i had downloaded had with 4 wires and added a pin trying to simulate the 5 pin transformer for someone who would be putting the circuit together and seeing it as a little box with 5 pins instead of how the transformer is actually wound inside. what i should have done was just drawn a box, labeled it T1 and put 5 pins on it. in drawing that way i gave you the impression that that was how the coil was wound? does that make any sense or am i adding more confusion?
i can't take credit for this circuit, its actually the youtube guys from the link that maw posted. i came across it a year or so ago looking for a better igniter for a potato gun. i had a few of the kodak circuits from a coil gun project so i made a couple shockers, great for busy holiday shopping at the mall ;D

@ everyone, i apologize for deleting my posts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 08, 2008, 11:37:51 PM

@ Wilby:

Good to see you here. We need all of the good minds we can get to explore these types of devices.

Shocking coils for the Mall? I'll bet they are effective. Ha ha. I saw a video on youtube somewhere with a guy that made a stun gun out of a small transformer/power supply like those for charging cell phones, or cordless phones, etc. He tried it on his room mate (on camera of course) It appeared to work very well.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 09, 2008, 12:00:30 AM

a few more pics of jt units

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 09, 2008, 01:36:35 AM

@ ist:

Holy crap! What are you doing with all of those wired together? Have you turned this unit on yet? Very impressive.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 09, 2008, 02:07:20 AM

i have played with all of this stuff

:)

all i have showen i have built months ago.... :)

aside my pwms :D and digital curcuits im learning all that stuff now ;D

peace

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on December 09, 2008, 03:04:44 AM

@Slayer007,

I'm not sure what circuit you are looking at but if you are looking at
the Kodak funsaver camera circuit then the resistor is 82 ohm. This could be wrong
since my crappy multimeter is not accurate when measuring a resistor that is soldered
into the circuit. I looked on the net and some circuit drawings says 220 Ohm. I think
the circuit will work with any value in the range of 80 ohm to 1K.

@nievesoliveras,

The resistors used in the 2N3055 circuit is 270 ohm and 27 ohm both 5 watt. The important
thing is to get a 1/10 voltage divider for the base bias. So 300 ohm and 30 ohm will also do fine etc.
But if the values is too high then not enough current will go to the base and you loose output power.
I apologize for the bad hand drawing. I will make a better drawing of this circuit and post it soon.

@WilbyInebriated,

Yes that make sense. I think we just misunderstood each other. As you can see from the text above, I'm still
uncertain of what value that resistor are. The circuit is performing great for such a tiny size. Think of it,
the output coil is made of very thin copper wire and still that thin wire can transfer approx. 0,5 Watt to the light tube.
Have you tried to use Windows Paint when drawing circuits? If you use a lot of copy and paste then you can get very
good drawings. I use Paint for small drawings and convert the drawings to gif format to reduce byte size. I will do
more testing on your circuit this weekend. The circuit is like a small Tesla coil so I think it can do many other tasks.
Sorry for my bad English.

Regards,
Groundloop.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on December 09, 2008, 04:10:57 AM

@nievesoliveras,

Attached is a cleaned up version of the medium power inverter.
If you find any errors in the drawing, please notify me and I will
correct the errors. Various cores can be used for this circuit.
The resistors can be of higher values so that the circuit will
use less input power. Just use resistors that gives you approximately
1 to 10 voltage divide so that the base of the transistors get a little
higher than 0,7 Volt. If you use a Ferrite core and get high enough
frequency then the fluorescent tubes will light up with just one wire
connected. You can also put more than one fluorescent tube at
each output wire. I have not tried to find out how many you can use yet.

Regards,
Groundloop.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 09, 2008, 08:11:21 AM

@groundloop

Thank you for your answer!
Also for the new drawn circuit!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on December 09, 2008, 09:10:24 AM

@ Groundloop

Yes thats what I was woundering.
Thank you Very Much for your response.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 09, 2008, 01:00:03 PM

@all

I was loking for ferrite cores and found none.
I went to walgreens and ask for disposable cameras already developed and after convincing a young girl to help me, she gave me 20 cameras.

So now I am almost prepared to replicate the CFL circuit that is on the link posted by @freezer.

@plengo
Hi there! I have not been able to replicate your excellent work.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 09, 2008, 01:41:56 PM

@ Jesus:

Item #    Image      Description      Price These are about 1" in dia. They seem to work well.
G6683    Medium Toroidal Ferrite Core (Pkg of 5)
Medium Toroidal Ferrite Core (Pkg of 5)
   $1.00

http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/searchprods.asp

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 09, 2008, 02:53:38 PM

@pirate88179

Thank you. If you see in the photos I already have one ferrite toroid. The problem with it is that it is imposible to wrap 600 turns onto it. Thanks again I will check the link soon.

@Disposable Camera Fluorescent Light
http://www.josepino.com/circuits/?fluorescent_light.jpc

Only one of the 20 cameras that even though is not Fuji, was identical to jose espino's was chosen by me.
Then I proceeded to take off the parts not needed.
From a broken microwave I found, I took out the cables connector.
I soldered it into 2 empty holes on the pcb and it fit perfectly.
Then I soldered 2 wires connecting the pcb to the cables connector.
The finished project is photographed. The only thing left is to get the 4 watts fluorecent lamp.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 09, 2008, 02:59:02 PM

what will jesus do :D

lol

great work bro ...... get a flyback or a yoke from a tv ..... already wound ;)

ist

heck get 2 and stack em lol drop a pancke inside..... :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 09, 2008, 03:06:45 PM

Thank you innovation.
Can you make a simple sketch explaining how to do that?

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on December 09, 2008, 04:00:16 PM

@nievesoliveras,

Making 600 turns onto a toroid is possible if you use thinner wire than I stated in the drawing.
It all depends on the size of the core you will use. A small 1 -2 inch core will not hold all that wire.
One way to wind toroid core is first to put your wire evenly spread onto a long
wood stick. Then you use the stick to thread through the toroid.

My drawing was for a medium power inverter so a ferrite core from an old TV or data monitor
is more suitable. It is much more easy with a ferrite core. They are in two halves and easy to wind.

I tried to light up two 15 Watt fluorescent tubes with the small inverter from the Kodak camera. It did not work
with the tubes both in series or in parallel. So I think that my single 15 Watt tube is close to the maximum size
for that little circuit.

Groundloop.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on December 09, 2008, 05:27:22 PM

I have a quick question, and sorry to slow down the conversation but I'm only about 4 months into electronics. I have made 2 Joule thief's and they both work. My first one is larger then my second version. My second JT works slightly better and and has more windings with thinner mag wire. My question is, does toroid size and or more windings make a difference?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: maw2432 on December 09, 2008, 07:04:02 PM

Pirate - thanks for the link to Goldmine. Prices are great.

I found this circuit board that looks very interesting.

http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16565

Do you think it would be worth experimenting with?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 09, 2008, 09:11:32 PM

Thanks groundloop.

That is like making a fish net. They use a wooden needle full of nylon thread.
I need to build one for the wire.
That is if I dont find a normal ferrite.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 09, 2008, 09:53:30 PM

@ Bill:

You would have to ask ist or someone that knows more about this than I do. This is a good site for electronic supplies tho. I bought a color organ to run the lights on my Christmas tree. It was a kit. (some assembly required) I managed to assemble it and solder all of the components to the board without frying anything. (I used a heat sink)

This cool device cost $15.00 (US) and has 3 channels for: High freq. Midrange, and low range. It also responds to volume dynamics as well. So, I can have my tree with blue (for example) lights for bass, red for the midrange, and yellow for the highs and play music and the tree lights will respond. My Dad built one of these in the early 60's. (Had to use tubes back then) This brings back good memories.

I suspect that this lamp driver circuit is similar to the disposable camera circuits discussed earlier. But, as I said, I really don't know. I too am learning and I learn a lot every day, thanks to the posted links and smart folks on here.

We will see what someone else answers. Take care Bill. (good name)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 10, 2008, 02:03:49 AM

Here should be 2 photos of my 2nd joule thief. I packaged this one in an empty film (35mm) container and am running it off a single AA bat. in a battery holder. This is placed face down into an empty water bottle filled with clear glass marbles and then filled with water. It is bright enough to make a great night lite so you can see to walk to the bathroom, or whatever. You can even read by it if you are close enough. (very close) I also used a 10mm 28,500 mcd superbright LED on this one. (clear) I bought some small switches and I will add one later. This is a fun project.

Bill *Edit* I have found if you place it on a small mirror, it bounces light all over the room. *Edit*

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 10, 2008, 02:24:52 AM

Quote from: maw2432 on December 09, 2008, 07:04:02 PM
Pirate - thanks for the link to Goldmine. Prices are great.

I found this circuit board that looks very interesting.

http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16565

Do you think it would be worth experimenting with?

Bill

should work fine for you. i have a similar circuit, slightly larger, taken from a scanner and it has no problem lighting a 2 foot 20 watt tube and the 8 watt shown earlier.

edit: this circuit seems to accept a wide range of input voltage, from 9V to 16V. i didn't try any higher voltages. in this photo it is running off a 12V 1.2 Ah battery

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 10, 2008, 02:33:27 AM

@ Wilby:

Powered by what? Don't tell me it is a single AA bat. (grin) That is a lot of light there, man, that is cool! Do you have any idea how long this will work given the power source? I mean, can you imagine going camping and everyone else is using candles and small LED lanterns, and you hang those tubes from a tree branch powered by a small battery? This would freak the other campers out I am sure. They would be looking around for your generator. Nice work.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 10, 2008, 02:47:24 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 10, 2008, 02:33:27 AM
@ Wilby:

Powered by what? Don't tell me it is a single AA bat. (grin) That is a lot of light there, man, that is cool! Do you have any idea how long this will work given the power source? I mean, can you imagine going camping and everyone else is using candles and small LED lanterns, and you hang those tubes from a tree branch powered by a small battery? This would freak the other campers out I am sure. They would be looking around for your generator. Nice work.

Bill

12V 1.2 Ah battery. you really could hang these vertically, the red croc clip on the right side doesn't have to be connected. the brightness drops a bit when this is done.
no idea on the run time. i think last time i checked the circuit it pulled about 250mA, but that was with the scanner tube, which also makes a great camp light. i have one made from old blank dvd containers and a scanner tube/circuit.

i like your diffuser on your film canister JT!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Freezer on December 10, 2008, 04:50:03 AM

Interesting way to refract the light bill. :)

I tried the jt posted by jenna, and found it works without a resistor if you use 2n5089 in place of the 2n3904. It draws about 32mA at 0.86v for 3 various leds.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 10, 2008, 07:51:27 AM

@all

Greetings!!!

It seems that everybody here has been having important achievements this year.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on December 10, 2008, 11:24:53 AM

Pirate88179,

Great looking lamp. Keep up the good work.

@WilbyInebriated,

WoW, that looks good. Have you tried more tubes in series?
My thought is that if the voltage and frequency is high enough then maybe
we can power up many more tubes in series. I'm currently making a coil
the size of a 9V battery. I will post as soon it is done, hopefully this weekend.
Great work done here.

Groundloop.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 10, 2008, 12:29:23 PM

@all

I have been trying to get a 3w fluorecent bulb and I have not been able to get it. But I tried the circuit I replicated witha neon bulb on it and it lights it, meaning that at least 90 volts are produced.

When I test it with my meter it seems to put out more than a 1000v.
I say that, because, when I put the meter dial to the 1000 dcv, it flashes a bunch of numbers and then it only shows a 1. The same on the other dcv voltages.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 10, 2008, 10:28:27 PM

Quote from: Groundloop on December 10, 2008, 11:24:53 AM
Pirate88179,

Great looking lamp. Keep up the good work.

@WilbyInebriated,

WoW, that looks good. Have you tried more tubes in series?
My thought is that if the voltage and frequency is high enough then maybe
we can power up many more tubes in series. I'm currently making a coil
the size of a 9V battery. I will post as soon it is done, hopefully this weekend.
Great work done here.

Groundloop.

i haven't tried more tubes in series, mainly because i don't have any more. a friend is bringing me a few he had lying about, i will post a pic.

@jesus
nice job. do you have any small fluorescent tubes you can try with it?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on December 10, 2008, 11:20:03 PM

Hello Pirate88179
Nice topic you got here bill, I have been a phantom looksee'er for the past week ;D

Verry interresting stuff here, I remember some of us on the Stubblefield sites had a bit of a go making these JT. I got the bug now.

Yesterday I tried to make my 1st JT, and it didn't work.
This morning I went on the net and took another look at the circuits, and tried all over again, and well, what do you know, it seems to work, chuckle. :D

I followed a circuit that shows a 1m resister before the B2 winding and it also has a BC549 transistor.
I didn't have those so I used a S8050 transistor I scavenged from a solar garden light, seems to be OK.

OK now for the happy stuff
I soldered in a switch in series between the 1.5v battery and the main circuit, soldered in a 200ohm Tpot to adjust the voltage going to the JT.
I got a red LED to stay on at .9 of a volt, without capacitors in circuit.

I have another LED which has flying leads fitered with small clips, connecting it across a 1.5v dri cell won't even give a dim glow, so I know the JT works.
I connected 3 leds up in parallel, on the orig settings of .717 volts and they lit up but were dimmer.

I put my cro on the output and can see a waveform at high freq, man this thing is realy flying along.

Then to make it more interresting I added another switch to switch a 1000uF electrolytic and a .1uF ceramic which are connected between the 1K ohm resistor, I can cut in either capacitor, not much difference, this boosts the light output quite a bit. and to make it interresting, the Leds light at .717 volt.

I put a 3rd switch at the LEDs, adding a Green one to the circuit, now I can switch between Red or Green Leds.

Yup, I had fun today.

jim

@ groundloop, I got your PM and will show you what I want to do, but got to readup 1st on inverters etc.
jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief n Copper n Carbon rods n Iron Plates n Lead
Post by: electricme on December 11, 2008, 12:36:49 AM

To groundloop and others, some background

OK this is my setup at home showing my power from the ground, its only tiny volts.
I have an idea about using Jule Thief to boost volts to drive other small things.

Photo0066 is my Joule thief I made this morning
0067 is the waveform, cro was set on Volts/Division = .5 Time/Division = .2uS (micro seconds)
0069 LED Switched to Red LED
0075 LED Switched to Green LED
0074 toroid I wound this morning, wire came from a microwave fan motor coil. 30turns bifilier (not 20T)

OK next series are of the NS stuff I have been doing, this consists of Copper rods or in this case a sheet of copper berried in the ground, along with Carbon rods (5 of them) they are the separate Positives (+), the Iron plate and the Lead disk being a combined Negative (-).
So what I have connected to the "orange lead" is Green wire a common Neg and the Blue wire, a separate Positave and the Brown wire, another separate Positave.

see 0080.jpg
0078 shows the broader setup.

This is where I want to ask a question, I notice Bill asked this in a previous post here.
Is it possible to use a number of Jule Thieves to get a higher output by ganging their outputs.
Should we use a trifler wound torrid? or a quadbifilier winding?
Should a inverter circuit be used instead, or a combination?

I apologise for hogging the space, If this is not meeting the joule thief forum, I could setup another joule thief forum.
What say you all?

Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on December 11, 2008, 12:43:41 AM

Dont know how to add jpgs together hmmm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 11, 2008, 01:59:54 AM

@ Jim:

Nice to see you here. Feel free to post all you want, whatever you want. You always have some good stuff.

Well, you beat me to it. I have been wanting to get outside and hook one of these to my earth battery but have not had the chance. (yet) I was getting enough to light my leds before and with the JT maybe I can light a handful of them.....FREE!

Nice scope shot. I am not sure but I think your transistor is more heavy duty than the ones I am using. (3904) So, as someone said on here, you can probably get away with a series hook up of several. No telling what might happen.

I got my color organ up and running. I have 2 strings of 100 leds each and I need a third for the 3rd channel. It should be really cool.

I really miss being able to go back when posting and see what folks wrote. For some reason, I only can scroll down and see the last post. I know you said some things in your first post I wanted to talk about, but I can't see what they were. For guys like me with a bad memory, this is not a good thing. (grin)

Anyway, great to see you here. Keep us posted on the earth battery/JT experiments. I will do mine as soon as I am able.

Thanks to all who commented on my little LED water bottle lights. My neighbor suggested using broken glass fragments instead of my glass marbles. (my marbles are not truly clear, sort of opaque) He said he saw it on the net somewhere and it really breaks up the light and looks cool as well. I will try that when I can.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 11, 2008, 02:55:54 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 11, 2008, 01:59:54 AM

Thanks to all who commented on my little LED water bottle lights. My neighbor suggested using broken glass fragments instead of my glass marbles. (my marbles are not truly clear, sort of opaque) He said he saw it on the net somewhere and it really breaks up the light and looks cool as well. I will try that when I can.

Bill

i saw something similar on instructables, it was featured in their 'get the LED out' contest.
http://www.instructables.com/id/Get-the-LED-out-Glass-Filled-LED-Lightbulb/
an egg makes a nice diffuser also
http://www.instructables.com/id/Extremely_Simple_quotEggcellentquot_Night_Ligh/
have you tried adding bleach to the water like those guys in that thread awhile back. http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=4878.0

here are a couple nice JT projects kids might enjoy.
for the boys, http://www.instructables.com/id/Electric-Chair-Joule-Thief/
for the girls, http://www.instructables.com/id/Cat-Burglar-Joule-Thief/

and here is another 1.5V to 350V inverter.
http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-build-the-Worlds-Smallest-Electronic-Shock/

unrelated but one of my personal favs among many on instructables, flaming mini-marshmallow projectiles get me every time...
http://www.instructables.com/id/Butane-badness/

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 11, 2008, 09:25:24 AM

jim welcome 8)

bring it on bro 8)

;D

awsome job ....

indeed this all is VERRY REAL ;)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on December 11, 2008, 02:14:49 PM

@electricme,

>>Is it possible to use a number of Jule Thieves to get a higher output by ganging their outputs.

I do not think you can connect one Joule Thief to the output of the first and get more power.
If you want to make one unit that can drive more LEDs from your earth battery then you
probably need a third winding on your coil. Then the output is insulated from the input.
You did not say how much power you got from the earth battery but if it is around one watt
or so then you can light up many ultra bright white leds with a JT.

Good luck with your research.

@All,

I hand made a new JT coil today. It has 20 turns primary, 20 turns trigger and 2000 turns output coil.
The core is a ferrite rod 40 mm long and 8 mm diameter. My design goal is to switch approx. 12 watt
of power to a fluorescent tube. At 12 volt 1 ampere input the output should be 1000 volt at 10mA.
(Not counting losses in the circuit.) I found the ferrite core in an old PC power supply. The wire is
from a standard small transformer. The coil is held together with hot glue and tape. I taped the secondary
at regular intervals to get some insulation between the layers in the core. I hope this will prevent sparks
form flying inside the output core. I will wire up the circuit this weekend and tell you how it went.

(Edit 12.12.08) I tested the coil today. At higher voltages the coil shorted out on the secondary.

Groundloop.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Freezer on December 11, 2008, 06:40:41 PM

Quote from: Groundloop on December 11, 2008, 02:14:49 PM

@All,

I hand made a new JT coil today. It has 20 turns primary, 20 turns trigger and 2000 turns output coil.
The core is a ferrite rod 40 mm long and 4 mm diameter. My design goal is to switch approx. 12 watt
of power to a fluorescent tube. At 12 volt 1 ampere input the output should be 1000 volt at 10mA.
(Not counting losses in the circuit.) I found the ferrite core in an old PC power supply. The wire is
from a standard small transformer. The coil is held together with hot glue and tape. I taped the secondary
at regular intervals to get some insulation between the layers in the core. I hope this will prevent sparks
form flying inside the output core. I will wire up the circuit this weekend and tell you how it went.

Groundloop.

Looks great.. Sounds very similar to the Stubblefield coil..Do you have any idea how Stubblefields battery worked? After studying his cell, I believe he was gearing it for high voltage, and not concentrating on getting amperage. Mr. Thrapp stated in his radio interview that, "you can make amperage". Have any idea what that means? I have no idea..His cell seems to be like an ignition coil.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 11, 2008, 07:03:02 PM

ist .... calling sparks..... :)

amparage is made hummmmm

hi volts low amps ....... low volts high amps ........ hummmm ;)

left hand right hand hummmm ;)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Freezer on December 11, 2008, 08:46:18 PM

I picked up a fuji for $4. Makes a great joule thief... I used jose pino's circuit, and it works great. It lights a 15w fluorescent bulb, but wouldn't light a 35w.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on December 11, 2008, 09:03:05 PM

@ innovation_station
Thanks for your kind welcome

On AMPS, the best way to explain this simply is to imagine you have two dry cell batteries, a AAA and a D cell
If you take them both apart, the center carbon electrode in the AAA is way smaller then the D size carbon electrode.
Because the surface area is so much smaller in the AAA battery, it will only be able to put out smaller amps (read that tiny Amp)

AMPs is the amount of "current" or energy that has the push or muscle behind it.
However, the Voltage will remain the same in either battery, ie 1.5 volts

Hope this helped you.

@ groundloop
What I looking to do is run 2 JT of 2 seperate feeds, but both feeds share a common earth (-).

Then use the hi freq outputs at the LEDs to drive another seperate torid (no2), which feeds into the primary having a centre tap.
Then make a secondary on the (no2 torid), wind on a lot of turns (dont know how many (just lots)), then feed this into a very small 240v to 12v ac transformer, (out of a plugpak) and rectify the output, and see if this will give me any useful power.

Its just a thought mind you, and probably won't work, but this is a job for afta this weekend.

If this works, then I will make up something like 3 phase input, we will see, just trying a way to get more grunt.

Gona get my frequency meter this week or next week, if it's still there :D

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 11, 2008, 10:25:26 PM

@wilbyinebriated

I dont have any small tubes but I will buy some 9 to 15 watts coil fluorescent bulbs and see what happens.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 11, 2008, 10:55:46 PM

@Jesus:

I am also going to try to make one of these circuits. I don't have any florescent tubes either but, I will scrounge some somewhere. I wonder if a new one takes less energy to light than an old discarded one? Possibly so. I am very excited about this stuff. I guess it does not take much to excite me these days but when I see folks lighting long tubes with little power....I like that. I mean even the small tubes call for many watts. I never knew these watts could live in a small AA battery.

@ Freezer:

Are those neons? Nice work!!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 11, 2008, 11:08:33 PM

@pirate

There is a good guy called Aromaz that made a circuit for lighting fluorescent lamps. I post the link because I know it will be interesting at this precise moment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHPuDrRbaJs&feature=related
His circuit is replicated here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xatumZCta6g

By the way, he has about 28 clips done.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 11, 2008, 11:30:26 PM

@ Jesus:

Thank you very much for posting this. This guy is great!!! This is exactly the type of stuff I want to learn. I saved him to my youtube favorites and I will check out all of his other videos. Great information. Thank you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 11, 2008, 11:32:35 PM

nice yep as simple as it is.... 8)

you can just use the relay when configured properly.... ;)

i dont know it will lit those bulbs altho it produces kicks that you can feel nicely ...

my cap charger is just a relay with a neo magnet spark gap prorpelled by the feild of the coil...

i will post a hooked up pic of it tommorow .... with everything in place ....

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 11, 2008, 11:46:00 PM

@ ist:

I have taken apart cfl's before to get parts once they quit working. Of course, this is dangerous because if you break the tube, the mercury leaks out and you are supposed to call a hazmat team to do the clean-up. But, I was thinking. (also dangerous) Somewhere in there is a transformer to convert 120 v ac to whatever the bulb needs to light. We already know it will light on dc at the right freq. So, my thought is.....can we by-pass the ac stuff and put our power in and still use the high freq. transformer to get it to light with an AA bat or something else small dc? It is just a small pc board in there with a minimal amount of components. I just think that if we put our dc in at the right point, it will still light. Maybe have to use a JT circuit before going in, I don't know. What do you think?

Bill PS I am playing music and watching my Christmas tree light up using my $15.00 board and components from Electronics Goldmine. It works great! It is driving 200 leds and 80 incandescent bulbs on three frequencies and also responds to volume/amplitude. This was a great project. (all projects are great when they work)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 12, 2008, 12:30:45 AM

yes you can do exactly that bill, remove the AC circuit and just hit the tube with high voltage to light it.

edit: i may have misunderstood, were you suggesting stepping up a 1.5V to 120V and then running the cfl from that? that should work too, although i think you have more losses going that route instead of just going from 1.5V to 350V or higher.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 12, 2008, 01:11:11 AM

@ Wilby:

No, you had it right before. I was just thinking of lighting the cfl tube from 1.5 volts dc....no 120vac at all. It may not be full brightness but...I still think it would be cool. Any idea of what part/parts to by-pass on the round pcb?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 12, 2008, 01:39:21 AM

i'd say all of it. just go right to the tube itself. i would think one of those 1.5 to 350V inverters would do it just fine. just try and stick to the lower wattage variety. like groundloop said earlier, there is a limit to how big you can go.
you can also do the inverse, if you break the cfl twist bulb, you can use the circuit to drive a plain old tube.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 12, 2008, 01:42:48 AM

@ Wilby:

Thank you. I think I'll give it a go. What's the worst that could happen? Wait, don't tell me.... ha ha

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on December 12, 2008, 02:15:13 AM

@Freezer,

I have read about the Stubblefields battery but I have no idea on how it worked.

A friend of mine paid some money to call Mr. Thrapp. His impression was
that the only thing he was interested in was getting more money.

Great JT you made.

@electricme,

Is the attached circuit what you have been looking for?

(Edit) Added a drawing for common input voltage.

Groundloop.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 12, 2008, 03:59:23 AM

i wanted to add that a ferrite core is not actually necessary for the simple led joule thief.
in these photos i am using a air core coil for a crystal radio. 2n3904 transistor, 1K ohm resistor. it draws less than 10 mA.

edit: the coil is 50 turns of 24 gauge and 25 turns of 30 gauge in the middle.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 12, 2008, 12:12:28 PM

@ Wilby:

Wow! No core needed eh? And here I was going to order a bag of the ferrite toroids. Thanks for finding this out and posting it.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 12, 2008, 01:13:54 PM

@wilbyinebriated

Is the joule thief running with the current drawn from the air?
Because I can see something that seems a battery there.
If it is running with just the crystal radio generated power. Would you be so kind as to post the schematics or circuits of the components configuration?
I would like to replicate it.
Good Job!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 12, 2008, 01:43:53 PM

@ Jesus:

I believe he is running it off the AA bat. in the photo. I think he just replaced our ferrite toroid with an air core coil which, I didn't know we could do.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 12, 2008, 05:20:14 PM

@pirate

Thank you!
-----------------
I already bought a car ignition coil. Also I bought a 14w fluorescent lamp, But when I connected it to the camera circuit, it gave not much light. I was expecting a little more from it.
My neighbor replaced a circular ceiling fluorescent lamp because it lights at random and I ask her to give it to me so I can make some experiments. The only thing that I need now is the relay Aromaz use on his video.
By the way, anybody has gotten the part number of that relay?

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on December 12, 2008, 06:32:58 PM

A word of caution, re: CFL light bulbs.

I read somewhere that they emit harmful radiation...due diligence called for.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Trino Cularoid on December 12, 2008, 07:32:14 PM

Quote from: Cap-Z-ro on December 12, 2008, 06:32:58 PMI read somewhere that they emit harmful radiation...

Hmmm... References would be a little more helpful... Otherwise it could possibly be mixed up with another terror threat level...

X-ray tube, CRT, FL, CFL, CCFL, etc., work _somewhat_ similarly. Of course you have _some_ kind of radiation (that's the whole idea). But where does your "harmful" start? Well, the technology has been around and in use for many decades (before the 1930s). Are you referring to something specific to CFLs only?

BTW, there are some nice colorful pictures in Wikipedia under FL, CFL and CCFL (try different language selections):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorescent_lamp#Other_fluorescent_lamps
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leuchtr%C3%B6hre#Farben

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 12, 2008, 07:57:34 PM

@ groundloop

i bought all i needed today in the city.... to dup your curcuit altho i want to make imporvements to it with you as i can not draw curcuits as well as yourself nor as quick hey want a job :o ;)

but i want to to switch out the second 3055 for a pnp amoung other things to improve output ...

i just did another BIG DEMO of MY NEO ZAP TECH TODAY...... :D

lets just say they were blowen away ;) 8) so much that i have decided to do a VIDEO FOR EVERYONE ;D

a good friend of my investors just happens to be an electrical engineer :P that has had many years of employment with NASA!!! i beleave he is retired now ;) he will be working with me in the near future 8)

LOL!!!!!

;)

ill post it tonight

btw i picked up 40 more square neos today i now have 60 of them and 6 1mh coils @4 ohms @600hz@8 ohms 1.2khz ;)

nuff bout me for now ..... i got a high quality vid to make for you guys....

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 12, 2008, 09:09:26 PM

@ ist:

Heck, if you get any more supplies and equipment, someone in your neighborhood may turn you in suspecting that you are doing something evil. (Smile) I would love to come and play at your house one day. I think it would be fun. I can't wait to see your video.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 12, 2008, 09:31:35 PM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on December 11, 2008, 02:55:54 AM
i saw something similar on instructables, it was featured in their 'get the LED out' contest.
http://www.instructables.com/id/Get-the-LED-out-Glass-Filled-LED-Lightbulb/
an egg makes a nice diffuser also
http://www.instructables.com/id/Extremely_Simple_quotEggcellentquot_Night_Ligh/
have you tried adding bleach to the water like those guys in that thread awhile back. http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=4878.0

here are a couple nice JT projects kids might enjoy.
for the boys, http://www.instructables.com/id/Electric-Chair-Joule-Thief/
for the girls, http://www.instructables.com/id/Cat-Burglar-Joule-Thief/

and here is another 1.5V to 350V inverter.
http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-build-the-Worlds-Smallest-Electronic-Shock/

unrelated but one of my personal favs among many on instructables, flaming mini-marshmallow projectiles get me every time...
http://www.instructables.com/id/Butane-badness/

@ Wilby:

Sorry I missed the question about the bleach. Yes, I remember that topic which is what gave me the idea to do this with the plastic water bottle. I am sure it has been done before by many but that is where i got the idea. As far as the bleach goes, I believe that was only added to the water to keep it from going bad, and I will do the same if I settle on a final design and seal them up for good. I could be wrong here, but that is what I thought he used the bleach for. Thanks. Here is the photo from instructables with the light bulb filled with broken glass. Now THAT is a good diffuser. I am going to try it in the plastic bottles. Thanks for finding that and posting it.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Freezer on December 13, 2008, 04:01:31 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 11, 2008, 10:55:46 PM
@ Freezer:

Are those neons? Nice work!!

Bill

Thanks and yes, they a Ne2 colored and 1 regular Ne2. The great thing about this is that its already built, all you need to do is remove some components and solder some on.

Quote from: Groundloop on December 12, 2008, 02:15:13 AM
@Freezer,

I have read about the Stubblefields battery but I have no idea on how it worked.

A friend of mine paid some money to call Mr. Thrapp. His impression was
that the only thing he was interested in was getting more money.

Great JT you made.
Groundloop.

Thanks, yea, you can hear in each one of his interviews that he doesn't want to talk about anything, and that he's interested in the money. I still think he knows how to do it, but not willing to share that information, even if you do pay him.

I made small video for youtube about this joule thief. Added a 3 way switch to go between 2 neons and an output plug.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYh49VOTMlQ&feature=channel_page

Found another 23w fluorescent bulb and it lights.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 13, 2008, 06:37:40 AM

@freezer
nice build!

Quote from: nievesoliveras on December 12, 2008, 01:13:54 PM
@wilbyinebriated

Is the joule thief running with the current drawn from the air?
Because I can see something that seems a battery there.
If it is running with just the crystal radio generated power. Would you be so kind as to post the schematics or circuits of the components configuration?
I would like to replicate it.
Good Job!

Jesus

you got me thinking jesus...
i don't think you could place a joule thief in substitution of the ear piece on a crystal radio and have it work. i'd love to see it done although i'm pretty sure you wont get enough amps from a crystal set. but... i don't see any reason why a crystal radio itself wouldn't light a led. try replacing the diode in most any crystal radio circuit with a led. i'd be willing to bet with a good (100-200ft) antenna, a good ground and of course a strong (50K watt) station nearby, it will light.
couple things come to mind, pick a low current led and use a crystal circuit design that will step down the voltage and raise the amperage, like the coil i showed previously. then again, if you aren't nearby a strong station, a crystal set with less selectivity might be a better choice to try and light a led.
hurry hurry, i might just have to beat you to it ;) i'm just waiting on the variable capacitor, because i'm too lazy to just make one. here is the circuit for the coil i showed with the joule thief.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: maw2432 on December 13, 2008, 02:39:52 PM

@Freezer

Very impressive video!! Nice work.
Can you share the details of your modifications?
I want to replicate.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 13, 2008, 03:15:55 PM

8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)MY IST NEO ZAP! TECK 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
WAKE UP ALREADY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlBg-hVTIOM

THE INNOVATION STATION TEAM!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 13, 2008, 03:49:59 PM

@freezer
That is what I have been trying to do lately.
I tried to put together 2 camera circuits to get a brighter ligh and I ended up with several circuits damaged, Including the first one with the neo bulb.
Now I have to start all over again.

Congratulations, You did a great job! Nice video!

@wilbyinebriated
Thanks for the circuit. I already have built the antenna. I tried with my circuit of taking energy from the air and it did not work. I will change the 3awg for a 26awg, because it is too thin and difficult to connect to a breadboard. It loses connection.
I will try your circuit as soon as i can.

@innovation
Those were big sparks on your video!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 13, 2008, 03:56:21 PM

put a number of diodes off it ;)

:D

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 13, 2008, 04:15:44 PM

@ groundloop
??? I tried to replicate your circuit. But my 4 watt bulb only lit up very dimly. Not anywhere near as bright as others seem to be getting. I tried using 100 ohm and 500 ohm resistors and results were the same. I tried 3 volt battery and not much difference. Open circuit output voltage with 1.5 volt battery is about 300 volts. Open circuit output voltage with 3 volt battery is about 500 volts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 13, 2008, 04:23:06 PM

Quote from: Freezer on December 13, 2008, 04:01:31 AM
Thanks and yes, they a Ne2 colored and 1 regular Ne2. The great thing about this is that its already built, all you need to do is remove some components and solder some on.
Thanks, yea, you can hear in each one of his interviews that he doesn't want to talk about anything, and that he's interested in the money. I still think he knows how to do it, but not willing to share that information, even if you do pay him.

I made small video for youtube about this joule thief. Added a 3 way switch to go between 2 neons and an output plug.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYh49VOTMlQ&feature=channel_page

Found another 23w fluorescent bulb and it lights.

@ Freezer:

Very nice, neat little package you made there. Nice craftsmanship. I am off now to check out your video. That is a good amount of light from just a AA battery.....well done!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 13, 2008, 08:00:02 PM

@ groundloop

:) The following circuit is much brighter than the circuit in my previous post. I removed the diodes and added a 30 pF capacitor. You might want to do the same. Still not as brite as Freezer's circuit. I hope he will post it. He seems to have the best performance.

EDIT: Also works from single 1.5 volt AAA battery.
EDIT: Larger capacitor values seem to work better. May be voltage and circuit dependent.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 13, 2008, 09:08:59 PM

Quote from: xee2 on December 13, 2008, 08:00:02 PM
@ groundloop

:) The following circuit is much brighter than the circuit in my previous post. I removed the diodes and added a 30 pF capacitor. You might want to do the same. Still not as brite as Freezer's circuit. I hope he will post it. He seems to have the best performance.

EDIT: Also works from single 1.5 volt AAA battery.

8)

hummmmmmmm...... ;D

Re: IST! NEO ZAP! TECK Breakthrough ....
Â« Reply #12 on: Today at 01:40:57 AM Â»

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6309.10

;)

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 14, 2008, 06:34:24 AM

@xee2
the basic circuit freezer used can be found here.
http://www.josepino.com/circuits/?fluorescent_light.jpc

@jesus
an easy way to use tiny gauge wire with breadboards is to make a small 'post' and wind the thin wire around it a couple times at one end and solder it. i usually make the 'posts' out of about 15 or 20mm of the lead from a diode or a resistor. they go in and out of a breadboard real nice.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 14, 2008, 08:07:18 AM

Thank you wilbyinebriated!

By the way, I have been trying to build the gorundloop first circuit with the kodak camera circuit and those circuits now have many tiny parts instead of regular resistors and regular diodes, that makes impossible to change it to a cfl light driver.
I then have been trying to take out the transformer and build the circuit on a bread board, but each time i try to pull the transformer out it gets broken.
Do you know by any chance, the transformer's part number or the name of it. I would buy it instead of keep damaging all the circuits I got.

I made a composed graphic of the joule thief cfl camera process.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 14, 2008, 08:39:22 AM

@jesus
i was looking at some of the different flash circuits i have and some have 6 pin transformers, some have 5 pin and some even have a 4 pin transformer with a micro transistor on the bottom side of the circuit board. i don't have any like the one you pictured. for the kodak based circuit you will need a 5 pin transformer, for jose's fuji/other? circuit you will need the 6 pin variety.
yes the transformers are very difficult to remove, i always seem to end up pulling at least one pin out of the transformer. some i saved by carefully pushing the pin/s back in and re soldering the wire, some just can't be saved. i have heard you can use welding gloves and a heat gun on the backside of the circuit board and the parts will just fall out. i have not tried this myself.
i have no idea on the part #, sorry.

nice graphic. great summation.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 14, 2008, 08:49:55 AM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on December 14, 2008, 08:39:22 AM
@jesus
i was looking at some of the different flash circuits i have and some have 6 pin transformers, some have 5 pin and some even have a 4 pin transformer with a micro transistor on the bottom side of the circuit board. i don't have any like the one you pictured. for the kodak based circuit you will need a 5 pin transformer, for jose's fuji/other? circuit you will need the 6 pin variety.
yes the transformers are very difficult to remove, i always seem to end up pulling at least one pin out of the transformer. some i saved by carefully pushing the pin/s back in and re soldering the wire, some just can't be saved. i have heard you can use welding gloves and a heat gun on the backside of the circuit board and the parts will just fall out. i have not tried this myself.
i have no idea on the part #, sorry.

nice graphic. great summation.

Thanks
I pulled out the transformer from my first attemp the one with the neo bulb, and it has the six legs but looking from the top of the transformer, the one from the right side of the row that has four is just inserted on the plastic and has no connection to the coil. So I infered that it is just to help strenghten the transformer base or that it has that extra leg for a future coil they will build.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on December 14, 2008, 09:22:47 AM

@Xee2,

I tried different capacitors but the best result I get is with my 15 Watt tube connected
direct to the transformer output windings. I also did run the circuit from 3 volt and I got
a LOT of light but the transistor did get warm very quick as expected. So it is not
recommended to run this little circuit on higher voltages than 1,5 volt.

(edit) I got the same light output with a 100nF ceramic capacitor from the tube end to minus.
The other end of the tube is connected directly to the transformer.

@Nievesoliveras,

Maybe you can try to make your own transformer instead of using transformers from the cameras?
One good source for transformers is the one found in PC power supply. I have found that some
of them can be stripped for wire and then rewired with the number of turns you want. It is a LOT
of work to hand wind the output coil. I have attached a image of my first attempt. The output coil
has 1150 turns (all I could fit) and the input has 4 separate coils, 2 turns each. The high voltage
coil has 0,1 mm enameled copper wire. The input coils uses 0,35 mm enameled copper wire.

Groundloop.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 14, 2008, 09:36:01 AM

i also tried running the kodak mod @ 3V. much more light. i was surprised. i hooked up the ammeter just to see, and it was pulling just over 1A.
i ran it at 4.5V as well, but not for very long.

1150, dang! your hands must be feeling it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 14, 2008, 09:45:44 AM

@groundloop

I found the name of the transformer. It is: Photo Flash Transformer.
I will search ebay and the net for it. It is too difficult for me to build my own.

Thanks again.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on December 14, 2008, 10:01:49 AM

@WilbyInebriated,

I checked the data sheet for the 2SD965 and the data sheet said that the transistor
can handle up to 5 ampere. But as you said, the circuit will not survive for long because
of heat buildup both in the transformer and in the transistor. (I have attached the 2SD965 data sheet.)

The most work when making my own transformers is removing
the existing windings and then breaking the transformer core open. I just heat the black
glue on the transformer ferrite core with a propane flame. Then I pull the cores out of
the transformer housing. Sometimes it works and sometimes I just break the cores
in many small fragments. LOL

Groundloop.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 14, 2008, 12:09:24 PM

I used a propane flame and pulled out four transformers, 2 came out right.
Problem now is they are not wide enough to cross the bread board middle gap.
I will need to add some longer cooper legs and see.

It would be cool if @freezer posted his circuit configuration before I damish anything else experimenting.

Thankyou all.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 14, 2008, 12:31:59 PM

@all

There are lots of transformers here:
http://www.wellgainelectronics.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1217

This specific one is: I5A EE19 PHOTO FLASH TRANSFORMER
I dont know if it is the same as the one graphed by @groundloop.
Does anybody has tried one of these?

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 14, 2008, 01:25:25 PM

@nievesoliveras

Web site shows turns ratio of about 1:10. My guess is that you would need 9 volts instead of 1.5 volts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 14, 2008, 02:38:05 PM

@nievesoliveras

I think this circuit may work using Radio Shack 8-1200 ohm transformer. But, I have not tested it (and do not plan to) so build at your own risk. Use large toroid so that it will not get saturated. Please post results if you build it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 14, 2008, 02:55:39 PM

Using 2 joule thief on a single toroid,i made the coils like this picture using one pnp and one npn so one feeds from positive side of the battery and the other the negative , i am planing on using the excess energy to feed back the circuit helping with the battery consumption the goal would be removing it removing it.Then add coil around the toroid to get power from the induction .

Any comment or input would be appreciated greatly , so far the coils and transistor are working so i have 2 JT working wired up like picture
now i am working on the feedback circuit.red and yellow for pnp and blue and green for npn.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 14, 2008, 04:02:30 PM

@xee2

Thank you for the information and the circuit. I bought the only small transformer that radio shack had it was an audio transformer #273-1380. And it cannot turn on a neon bulb connected to the circuit I made from the disposable cameras given to me. The circuit is included on this post.
The Transformer used on the circuit has six legs, but only five have connections. The circuit connections are exactly as shown. The transformer is viewed from top. It works but it does not turn the 14watts CFL bright enough.

@mk1

That graphic looks promising!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 14, 2008, 04:58:47 PM

@nievesoliveras

Wow, you are quick. I am not sure I understand all that you did. The Radio Shack transformer was not a substitute for the camera transformer. It take the place of part of the camera transformer. The other part of the camera transformer needs to be made but is a simple standard Jule thief transformer that can be made from twisted pair of wires and toroid. You did get the transformer I was thinking of. Since you are building it, I looked it up and modified my circuit to show the correct lead connections.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 14, 2008, 05:10:09 PM

@xee2

I will try it tomorrow.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 14, 2008, 05:42:49 PM

So this is what i got, it runs from the cap for about 2 minutes . And lights 2 leds.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 14, 2008, 07:27:50 PM

@mk1

There was a mistake on the circuit. You said that one transistor is NPN and the other PNP and you drawed them both NPN.
Should it look like this? Or you have the PNP on the other side?
Also, where is the bridge rectifier connected?
Another thing, is the cap electrolitic or ceramic?
Last, where the LEDs are connected?

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 14, 2008, 07:52:05 PM

Thanks , sorry for mistake.I made it with paint i don' t have the appropriate software The cap is electrolytic, and the only output is from one additional coil added and not connected to anything except the bridge rectifier , so the circuit is to provide pulse and the power is then pickup by induction. Like in this schematic

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 14, 2008, 08:01:44 PM

@mk1

Thank you!

If you look well to that circuit, it also has two NPNs.
I also use paint to make my circuits, then I convert them to jpg with irfanview program.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 14, 2008, 08:15:40 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on December 14, 2008, 08:01:44 PM
@mk1

Thank you!

If you look well to that circuit, it also has two NPNs.
I also use paint to make my circuits, then I convert them to jpg with irfanview program.

Jesus

I have made some very, very crude drawings in paint. Where do you get the electronic symbols from? Someone told me you have to copy and paste them but I can never seem to find all the cool symbols and component pictures everyone else seems to have. Thank you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 14, 2008, 08:44:56 PM

On my circuit i wanted opposite symmetry for each side so that it would get the flow going from both sides of the cap and in from both sides as well, to create a self powered joule thief it will need some improvement, but the principle is to get it to self resonate then the pickup coil transmit voltage. So i wound the coil like the previous picture 12 turns each, i believe it was inspired from a Telsa patent, i found it in this forum.
I have built a few small practice amp and gt2 guitar pedals,i don't have much expertise on the subject but that never stop me from doing it.

We can't wait for a savior we have help our self first.Thanks for your interest.

@ Jesus

Thanks again.

@ Bill i took the first jt circuit drawing i found at www.evilmadscientist.com

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 14, 2008, 08:57:28 PM

@pirate

Take this file and save it as bmp and when you are building a circuit choose the symbol and copy it to memory,
paste it back on paint and resize it to the size you need by dragging the square handles.

Do the same with any picture you find on the forum. Save it as bmp and then edit it with paint using its own symbols.

To convert it to jpg use irfanview that can be downloaded free from the internet.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on December 14, 2008, 08:59:38 PM

@Pirate88179,

I use Paint when drawing less complex drawings. For bigger circuit drawings I use Cadsoft Eagle cad.

In Paint there is no library of components. What you do is drawing each component you need in the
circuit drawing by memory. So if you want a transistor then use the Paint built in circle first. Then you use
the line to draw the inside of the transistor. Making a diode is easy, just draw the half of the diode copy
it and paste it. Then select rotate in the menu and turn the half upside down. Now you just move the half
against the first one and you have a diode. Do not use the pencil. Use the line, the circle etc. In a circuit
drawing, when you need more of the same components already made, just copy and paste.

You will be amazed how fast you can make a circuit drawing with a little practice. I also find the zoom in
and out feature very useful in Paint. Also the rotate function is very useful.

Groundloop.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 15, 2008, 12:09:36 AM

@ Jesus and Groundloop:

Thank you both very much!!! I knew I was missing something. I can actually draw pretty well freehand, but with my mouse....forget it. It usually ends up looking like something someone did while drinking heavily. This was very helpful.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on December 15, 2008, 02:20:54 AM

@ bill,
WOW, this forum is rockin along, I go away for the weekend and turn up on monday and we are 5 pages further along.
Awsome

@ groundloop
Thanks for the circuit you drawed up, you did a great job with it, thats just how I imagined it.
For those reading, it is on page 18 about midway through.
Now I had better go a make it hadnt I!!!

Now groundloop, what say we make one that is 3 phase, just to up the power if thats possible ha ha.

I am dum struck with 1.5v AA cell driving a 20W fluro tube, blown away in fact.
I have a few old reject scanners here, going to get the mini-mini fluro out of them.

At all, I ordered a frequency counter, got to pick it up end of this week or just before xmas.

I had a very lucky find on late friday afternoon, visited one of the local dumps, someone had thrown away a 2 channel DEKA MAGNA Theraphy Unit 2.4 with digital display, had a very quick bo-peep inside it. This seems to be wired up very similar to Stan Mayers 555 HHO pulser to make fuel outa H2O. Found 2 big electyrolitics had come away from the main PCB, so it may work.

0110 = Front panel L & R channel controls Digital display in middle
0109 = The guts of the matter
0111 = Frequency board, the 2 elytrolytics are bridged together, one pigtail is metalled fatagued away off the pcb.
0112 = back of the Freq/Intens range switches, if you look at SM patient circuit, he has 3 ranges to chose from, here there are 11positions, hmmm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 15, 2008, 03:32:19 AM

@nievesoliveras

You might want to temporarily add an LED between collector and emitter to show if circuit is oscillating, By shorting out the red and white leads of transformer T2 you will have a standard Joule thief circuit except for resistor value (might use 1K resistor when doing this so as to not zap LED).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 15, 2008, 10:19:06 AM

@xee2

First I made a joule thief. Then I made sure that it was working properly.
Then I added your circuit . I put the led across emitter and collector and shone.
But at the green and blue terminals there was, with the led connected, only 39v ac.
Without the led across gave 54v ac.
It does not even light a neon bulb and spends the battery real fast.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Freezer on December 15, 2008, 10:50:22 AM

Quote from: xee2 on December 13, 2008, 08:00:02 PM

This circuit I have seems to be different than the one I got from the site. I drew it from the top view looking down, as I don't know the correct orientation. I desoldered the parts and put them on a different one for a cleaner look.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 15, 2008, 11:02:18 AM

@freezer

I really do appreciate your help!!!
The only thing I notice is that this circuit is different from the one you used before.
The one you posted is just the same as the one I posted before.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Freezer on December 15, 2008, 11:12:06 AM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on December 15, 2008, 11:02:18 AM
@freezer

I really do appreciate your help!!!
The only thing I notice is that this circuit is different from the one you used before.
The one you posted is just the same as the one I posted before.

Jesus

Slightly different from 5 to 6 pins for transformer.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 15, 2008, 11:25:50 AM

@nievesoliveras

:'( I'm sorry it didn't work. That is the highest turns ratio transformer (readily available) that I know of. But it looks like an even higher turns ratio is needed. My F4T5 tube measures about 96 volts when lit. So you might try 3 volts just to see if that will light your tube, but the transistor will get very hot at 3 volts. I hope your next project works better.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 15, 2008, 12:02:24 PM

@ Jim:

Wow, my dump never has anything that cool in it. Maybe one day......

@ Freezer:

Man, I am impressed! Lighting a CFL and a neon off a single AA! Good light level to from what I can see. Again, I have to say that you do very neat and organized work. Excellent job.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 15, 2008, 12:35:28 PM

My guess at Freezer circuit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 15, 2008, 03:31:51 PM

@ Freezer

Thanks for all of the documentation. In your photo "Fujicircuit3" did you remove the driver components from the bulb? It looks like you are using the bulb just as it was bought from the store.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 15, 2008, 03:53:32 PM

@Xee2:

It appears that way to me as well. If this is the case it is even more interesting. Using the circuitry designed to operate on 120vac (and who knows how many amps to drive it) and powering it all with that tiny AA bat is truly amazing!!! I just can't get over this.

If the folks on this topic keep going at this rate....soon we will have someone running their heat pumps from a single AA.!!.... ha ha.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Freezer on December 15, 2008, 05:30:13 PM

Quote from: xee2 on December 15, 2008, 03:31:51 PM
@ Freezer

Thanks for all of the documentation. In your photo "Fujicircuit3" did you remove the driver components from the bulb? It looks like you are using the bulb just as it was bought from the store.

I took out the circuitry inside the bulb. I'm still wondering the minimum input voltage till it stops working.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 15, 2008, 05:43:06 PM

great work everyone!!!

you guys are the ones changeing this place ....... 8)

keep at it guys this is just awsome to see this unfold......

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 15, 2008, 06:25:51 PM

The transformer you find in a camera is called a trigger coil. any CFL have a inverter coil that may be used as a joule thief.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 16, 2008, 12:25:47 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on December 15, 2008, 06:25:51 PM
The transformer you find in a camera is called a trigger coil. any CFL have a inverter coil that may be used as a joule thief.

just to clarify, camera flash circuits have a transformer and a trigger coil. the transformer is the larger of the two. the trigger coil is smaller, sometimes round, and usually has a wire leading from it to the center of the xenon tube. it takes the 300-400 volts that are across the cap/xenon ends and bumps it up to couple thousand volts or so, to slap the xenon with to make it light.

cfl's usually have a couple inductors on ferrite cores. a high voltage transistor or two and a high voltage cap as well. lots of good parts in them, thanks for mentioning that!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on December 16, 2008, 04:14:44 AM

Bad news, on 1st January I loose one of the 4 dumps I go to for goodies.
Boooo Hoooo, whale bigtime, bring out the hankies, a free shop is closing, its a calamity, i in shock n horror.....
see 0104.jpg

2 weeks a go, for instance, someone chucked out a wind powered prop and hub, its way too big to fit in the car, so I hid it in long grass, hope they dont find it when they buldose the dump ha ha. hope to get to it in a few days to dismantle it.
see 0055.jpg Win prop and hub at dump as I found it.
see 0056.jpg close up of prop hub, if the screws wont move a cold chissle and hammer will do the trick.

I found a LCD monitor screen, front glass smashed, plugged it in to power and the backlight tubes still work, so tomorrow this will be my next job, to scavenge the backlight tubes and HV driver electronics, Ill keep you all posted.
see 0114.jpg this is what a working LCD screen looks like if you drop it face downwards with force.
see 0115.jpg close up of the center of the broken LCD screen, (still working mind you)

@ nievesoliveras,
did you manage to get more voltage out of your JT mabe there is enough room on the HV bobbin to wind on more turns to rase the HV.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on December 16, 2008, 04:22:31 AM

Opps posted the wrong jpg, that is the road to the dump, the dump is actually on fire, someone decided to fire it up.
Hopefully the jpg appearing below is the right one :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 16, 2008, 07:53:17 AM

Quote from: electricme on December 16, 2008, 04:14:44 AM

@ nievesoliveras,
did you manage to get more voltage out of your JT mabe there is enough room on the HV bobbin to wind on more turns to rase the HV.

jim

No I have not goten more voltage from JT. I even used a boost circuit that doubles the voltage. But the CFL light does not burn bright.
With the circuit on the photo I could double the voltage of the camera circuit I have. It outputs 1260volts, but the light is still dim.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on December 16, 2008, 08:09:01 AM

@ Nievesoliveras

Hmmm tricky one this, If you have tried a voltage booster and it still won't get brighter suggests something else is wonky.
I'm no expert at this, but mabe the following suggestions may help.

If the HV unit works on a different JT, then try changing the tube itself, just mabe the tube is wonky or reached its end of life.
or, mabe the HV windings have a internal breakdown under load.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 16, 2008, 08:23:41 AM

Quote from: electricme on December 16, 2008, 08:09:01 AM
@ Nievesoliveras

Hmmm tricky one this, If you have tried a voltage booster and it still won't get brighter suggests something else is wonky.
I'm no expert at this, but mabe the following suggestions may help.

If the HV unit works on a different JT, then try changing the tube itself, just mabe the tube is wonky or reached its end of life.
or, mabe the HV windings have a internal breakdown under load.

jim

I do have a circuit from a CFL spiral bulb that the bulb got broken. I will use that one connected to the house AC to test the tube.
By the way is there any way to use that circuit with an AA battery?

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 16, 2008, 08:37:56 AM

The tube is good.
Then must be the transformer, or I just dont know.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 16, 2008, 09:35:10 AM

@ Nievesoliveras

These circuits will never bring the tube to full brightness because they are only delivering a fraction of the power required for full brightness. Brightness depends on power delivered, which in turn depends on input power and transformer. The following is a photo using the Kodak transformer (open circuit output voltage is about 300 volts). The Fuji transformer seems to work better but I have not tried it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 16, 2008, 11:30:27 AM

Quote from: xee2 on December 16, 2008, 09:35:10 AM
@ Nievesoliveras

These circuits will never bring the tube to full brightness because they are only delivering a fraction of the power required for full brightness. Brightness depends on power delivered, which in turn depends on input power and transformer. The following is a photo using the Kodak transformer (open circuit output voltage is about 300 volts). The Fuji transformer seems to work better but I have not tried it.

You are right! That one you did is as bright as mine.
Nice work!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 16, 2008, 12:29:06 PM

if you want to run the fluoro circuits off of 3V for a sustained amount of time you can change the 220R to something like 1K or higher to keep the transistor from overheating.

i took the kk05a6 circuit pictured below and removed everything but the transistor, transformer and 220R (which i replaced with a 7.5K ohm) resistor. it runs happily at 3V for extended periods with much better brightness.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Freezer on December 16, 2008, 01:08:06 PM

I wanted to add a bit of more information that might help. Try hooking up the circuit with the output in the same fashion as I did with the two outputs. I found that by trying to light the tube by itself without the other neon connected to the output two didn't light the tube as well, even though the switch is is centered on the tube output if that makes sense. Also for maximum brightness, use a duracell, or better. I found other batteries didn't work as well. I think between duracell and energizer, duracell wins for output, and energizer wins for endurance.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 16, 2008, 01:53:35 PM

Thank you @wilbyinebriated!
Thank you @freezer!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 16, 2008, 02:16:53 PM

@freezer
what program are you using to do those circuits? it looks nice.

@all
this should run a neon at about 1.2V, with about 3mA draw.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 16, 2008, 03:34:51 PM

Well, I just purchased a Fuji disposable camera and a 15" long (15 watt) florescent tube. When I get some time, I will try to see if I can use it to light from a AA like some of you have done. I will go back and re-read all of the posts where folks have done this and look at the posted schematics. Hopefully, I will not cause a rift in the space-time continuum if I hook it up incorrectly. (Grin) I may have some questions once I get started. Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on December 16, 2008, 05:47:57 PM

I got a little problem, :(
Varnish is used to stop the original wires from vibrating on the toroid surface.
After removing the old wires, sharp bits of varnish is left on the toroid surface.

What is the best slovent to remove this old varnish, so it wont cut the new wire
when it is wound on the old former?

White spirit, Kero, Petrol, Thinners, Metho,,,,? :)

jim

ps I learned a little trick to stop nuts working loose, use a drop of ladies nail polish, pink colour works best.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 16, 2008, 06:48:20 PM

@ All:

Here should be some photos of my Fuji board. When I bought the camera, it said it had "continuous flash technology" which may be the reason this brand is better for these projects? Not much to the board. I have to go back and read what to take off and what to add. This camera came apart very easily. (I just love taking things apart)

@ Jim:

Acetone might do the trick. (Main ingredient in some nail polish removers but cheap to buy at about $1.00 per quart) I took apart a cfl to get the small toroid and it had the same problem. I basically just shaved it off with my knife...very carefully, and it chipped off ok. Be careful as this could be a dangerous procedure.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 16, 2008, 06:49:48 PM

Here is one more. It would only allow me 2 attachments.

Bill ***EDIT*** I forgot to say that I got a healthy ZAP when I discharged the cap. My finger was on the metal part of my jeweler's screwdriver when I shorted the leads. Good to know it works.... ha ha.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 16, 2008, 08:26:24 PM

@ Pirate88179

That is a much heavier duty transformer than in the Kodak. Be sure to check the leads to see if they match Freezer drawing, in some of the schematics posted for the Fuji camera the transformer is marked T.04 not T9A. What model Fuji camera did it come out of?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 16, 2008, 08:55:23 PM

No wonder the light on freezer's was brighter, that transformer is gigantic.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 16, 2008, 08:56:13 PM

xee2:

It was a $4.00 (USD) camera and the only thing it said was it had "Continuous Flash Technology" whatever the heck that means. Well, it said that you could take multiple photos without waiting for the flash to charge up...so I thought this might be a good thing. I just checked my receipt, it says Fuji QK SMK. I already tossed the box and container into the large dumpster at my complex. Maybe I can look it up online? If not, I can go back to the store, I am there often anyway, and write down whatever it says on the package. The cap is much larger than the camera I took apart last year. (Just to see what was inside)

Thanks for the information on the trans. I will look into that. I really have no idea what I am doing.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on December 16, 2008, 09:12:02 PM

@ bill
Thanks Bill, I will try acitone later on, so you got zapped mate,,,ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haww ha haww chuckle.
ohh my sides are akeing from laughing so much ;D
how are da pinkies bill, do day hurty a little bit? ha ha h ah aaaaah
OK "quiet jim", I better not ware out the friendship

bandaids in the first aid cabinet bill.

I like the BIG capacitor, what a whopper, bet it got quite a punch,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

I once saw a radio repair bloke accidently bridge out a huge capacitor in a 15watt taxi 2 way transmitter using his wrist.
That knocked him around, he shut up shop for the rest of the day.

Seriously bill, take care mate, watch out for the loose juels, they hurty.

Now its my turn to pull apart a LCD back light unit, time to have FUN FUN FUN

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 16, 2008, 10:08:40 PM

@ Jim:

Thanks. Well, I have been shocked before. Once, when I built my first machine shop, the electricians did what they do and passed the inspection. (before we could operate) then, unknown to me at the time, when they screwed the panel covers back on (they had to be open for the inspection) they were missing a few screws. (actually machine screws) So, my electrician used a 5" long drywall screw to hold one of the panels on. This would have been fine except this extra extra long screw cut through a bunch of wires inside the panel. So, long story short, I made a big deal about turning on the power of our little machine shop for the first time, a little celebration with the employees, and me, as President got to throw the mains. Well, we had 4 panels of 400 amps each at 220/three phase. When I got to panel number two, yes, the one with the wood screw, and threw the main, I got shot across the room!!! ( I had my hand on the panel (ground) for leverage when throwing the big breaker) The wall around this breaker box was burned, the box was torched, I was lying on the ground some 10 feet away not knowing who I was or where I was, and my entire body was numb. well, needless to say I hired another electrician to fix the box and to also go over everything the other guy had done, just to be safe. I am lucky to be here. It had destroyed/melted every breaker in that box, and we actually had to buy another box as it was too distorted.

Long story but, I have been shocked before and, I am sorry to say, probably will be again. (probably when building this circuit.!)

Take care Jim.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on December 17, 2008, 04:38:48 AM

@ bill,
sorry I brought back bad memories about being electroquited, yes, you are very lucky to be alive, not to say the extra cost incurred to get another switch panel, it could have gone the other way. :(
Last week I was charging some nicad cells, they were taking their time and then the charging amps shot way up over 17AMPS.
Before I knew it they were hissing like crasy, so I heaved them outside quick smart, then about a minute later there was a huge bang as one of them exploded. I went outside with some water to cool them off, they sure were hot, you coulda fried eggs on them.
Yep bill, one cannot be too careful, now I charge them when I have a 12v DC bulb in series, if a cell shorts out, then the bulb lights up brightly, instead of the current being sinked into the cells. A fuse would cut the power instantly, but I want an indicator.

OK back to jule thief stuff
HP w1907 monitor mods.
pulled apart this back lit monitor, what a job that was.
If anyone wants to get into the insides of a HP LED screen, be very careful, you have to pry off the black plastic surround on the FRONT, its clipped together, then it comes apart with lots of breaking plastic sounds, not for the faint hearted.
I broke the 4 mounting plastic screw assembly because I went in the wrong way.

OK, the photos say it all
0123 = HV coils on the main PCB, there are 2 of them, driven by the accompanied components.
0126 = Working screen without the LCD glass pannel and its circuitry, wanted to see if it would work without it, it does.
0127 = Broken LCD screen next to backing light screen.

Hay guys, I don't want to modify this back light pannel, it would be a shame to muck it up, and it lights the whole room with a very bright amount of light, but being said, just mabe there might be a way to drive it with 12v DC. I sent HP techs a message, asking how to keep it running without a VGA signal, it shuts off after a minute.
I think there is a bit of UV light that isnt being filtered by the missing LCD screen, should I cover it with some stickon anti glair that is used on car windows? anyone know?

Yeah, I had fun today, heeps :D

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 17, 2008, 07:19:03 AM

nice score!
if memory serves, the R G and B inputs are 5V.
edit: my bad it's .7V p-p. pin 5 is listed as TTL ground (monitor self-test) that might do it too.
you should be able run it on 12v like you said, direct to the lamp inverter, unless that's all integrated.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on December 17, 2008, 10:22:13 AM

Jim,

Great idea, thanx. I have a couple of old defective notebooks laying around. Maybe I'll yank the screens off and play around. When I have time that is. Right now just shoveling that damn snow! When is summer here?

Tim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 17, 2008, 12:16:45 PM

@all

People has been asking me how to make the connections on the camera circuit. I discovered that no matter wich one I try it works in this basic way:
Just replace the capacitor with the lamp wires and short the flash activating terminals. After eliminating the resistor, it works!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 17, 2008, 12:36:23 PM

this also works for the kk05a6 circuit. just remove the capacitor and hook up two wires, with the caveat that only the negative capacitor lead can be used with the kk05a6circuit, the other lead has to come off the cathode side of the diode.
i do like to remove the unnecessary components, especially the trigger coil it can easily be rewired with no rewinding, just a snip and a solder, to make a nice 30 to 1 or so step up transformer. some one should try the classic joule thief circuit with one. the xenons are cool to play with too, hook a automotive coil up to a bedini sg and wire the xenon to the auto coil for some nice lightning in a tube.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 17, 2008, 02:16:07 PM

@ Pirate88179

I found 2 Fuji cameras that you may have bought. Image1 looks like it may be cardboard. Image2 looks like it may be plastic. Both are QuickSnap 400 models. Do either of them look like what you bought?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 17, 2008, 02:24:26 PM

@ xee2:

Yes, the top photo looks exactly like it. It did, however, say on the box it came in that it had this "continuous flash" business. they were pretty proud of it and it was marked several times on the outside of the box. I don't recall if it was on the camera itself anywhere or not.

OK, I just found it on amazon. It cost $3.40. Hopefully, here is a picture. This is what I am using.

Bill PS I edited this and tried to add an enlargement so you can see the yellow label on the box. Mine had this.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 17, 2008, 02:39:55 PM

Pirate88179

Thanks. I will try to find one when I go shopping today.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 17, 2008, 02:50:34 PM

@xee2:

Sorry I had thrown away the box and left over debris so quickly. I should have made a note on the model number. I was just excited to begin tearing it apart to get at the circuit board and forgot to do so. I am sure you know more about this than I do but a word of caution, that cap is already charged and ready to go. I never turned on the camera or used it at all and it was charged up. It packs quite a kick.

Good luck with your project. Let us know how you make out with it.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 17, 2008, 02:55:27 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 17, 2008, 02:50:34 PM
@xee2:

Sorry I had thrown away the box and left over debris so quickly. I should have made a note on the model number. I was just excited to begin tearing it apart to get at the circuit board and forgot to do so. I am sure you know more about this than I do but a word of caution, that cap is already charged and ready to go. I never turned on the camera or used it at all and it was charged up. It packs quite a kick.

Good luck with your project. Let us know how you make out with it.

Bill

this probably won't work with that fancy fuji continuous flash wizardry ;) well, it should work but it will just charge up again. you can hold the camera in one hand and bang it hard into the other, if it doesn't flash, turn it 90 degrees and do it again just to be sure. you have to bang it hard, but it will trigger the flash for most models. i used my hand, you can bang it against harder objects at your own risk ;D
this will take most of the bite out of the cap, but it will still probably spark a little if you short it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 17, 2008, 03:23:38 PM

more fun. carefully remove only the xenon, taking care to leave the copper strip attached to the trigger coil and do not remove it with the xenon.
attach the ends of the fluoro tube to where the xenon was and tape the copper strip to the middle of the fluoro tube like it was on the xenon. :o

if you break the copper strip from the trigger coil, or it is not removable, just try and leave yourself a usable lead from the trigger coil to attach to some aluminum foil which you will wrap around the fluoro.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Thaelin on December 17, 2008, 11:09:57 PM

Hi Pirate:
Looked back but could not see the value of the cap. Did you by chance
get the value off of it? Just curious of the uf and volts.

thaelin

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Freezer on December 18, 2008, 07:13:09 AM

Quote from: Thaelin on December 17, 2008, 11:09:57 PM
Hi Pirate:
Looked back but could not see the value of the cap. Did you by chance
get the value off of it? Just curious of the uf and volts.

thaelin

350v 100uF

@All, here's two connected to a fluorescent bulb, using 4 leads of the bulb. Shows brightness between 1 and 2.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 18, 2008, 07:32:58 AM

Quote from: Freezer on December 18, 2008, 07:13:09 AM
350v 100uF

@All, here's two connected to a fluorescent bulb, using 4 leads of the bulb. Shows brightness between 1 and 2.

nice!
do both the circuits have the neon attached? it looks like just the one closest to the fluoro has a neon running too, but it's hard to tell.
have you tried running a circuit to each 'end' of the bulb vs 'across' as you have it?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Freezer on December 18, 2008, 07:38:19 AM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on December 18, 2008, 07:32:58 AM
nice!
do both the circuits have the neon attached? it looks like just the one closest to the fluoro has a neon running too, but it's hard to tell.
have you tried running a circuit to each 'end' of the bulb vs 'across' as you have it?

The second one I made only has one output, and no neon. It hard to predict how they will act. Sometimes I can turn both on and its not as bright, and the coil makes a high pitch sound, but if I turn the second one on right, it works making it brighter. If I put a magnet near the coil, you can eliminate the noise without killing the brightness if its not touching. There seems to be many ways to hook them up, and if you use a ground you can light them with 1 wire.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 18, 2008, 07:46:07 AM

@freezer

It is amazing!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 18, 2008, 11:36:08 AM

great work ....

psst: over the top ;)

but back to the jt i need to make vids of it ;)

l8r

keep up all of this great work !

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 18, 2008, 04:27:20 PM

@all

There is a link that has a lot of circuits of how to use their parts to make light here:
http://www.zetex.com/3.0/catdesignnotes.asp?catid=3&app=Lighting
If we cannot make the lamp to get bright. It is already done by someone else.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 18, 2008, 04:31:15 PM

Quote from: Thaelin on December 17, 2008, 11:09:57 PM
Hi Pirate:
Looked back but could not see the value of the cap. Did you by chance
get the value off of it? Just curious of the uf and volts.

thaelin

@thaelin:

I see Freezer answered this already. I just wanted to add that my cap has no volt or Farrad markings on it at all.

@ Jesus:

Thanks for the link. I will go there and check it out.

Bill ***EDIT*** I looked at a bunch of those circuits there and the lowest input volts I could see was 4.2 volts. Some were 6. I didn't see anything there driving a tube with only 1.5 volts. Did I miss it? As I said, I didn't look at them all. Thanks.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 18, 2008, 04:40:41 PM

good links jesus!

check out the royer oscillator one.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 18, 2008, 04:56:42 PM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on December 18, 2008, 04:40:41 PM
good links jesus!

check out the royer oscillator one.

I checked it already.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 18, 2008, 05:00:31 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 18, 2008, 04:31:15 PM
Bill ***EDIT*** I looked at a bunch of those circuits there and the lowest input volts I could see was 4.2 volts. Some were 6. I didn't see anything there driving a tube with only 1.5 volts. Did I miss it? As I said, I didn't look at them all. Thanks.

Check DN64
Check DN61
The value of it also is that it has information on the transformer windings.
You need to get litle bit of circuits here and there and build with it your own circuit.
For example: The tube rtecommended on Dn8-1 is 12 volts.
The one we are using is 120-230volts.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 19, 2008, 01:29:47 AM

@ All:

OK, this is weird. I modified the circuit according to the instructions posted on the site that Freezer posted. I hooked it all up tonight and...nothing. But, when I tested to see if the battery was in the holder ok, the tube lite up. After several tests, I determined that the only time the tube lights is when I either touch the battery, anywhere, (not real bright) or touch the copper lead from the battery holder. (very bright) If I wave my hand about 6" over the battery, it lights up. I went over the solder joints and made sure I didn't short out anything on the circuit board. Everything looks ok. Then, I picked up the circuit board to do another test and I got a good jolt of juice from where I was holding the board, which turned out to be where the flash tube was soldered to the board before removal. I gave up on it for tonight, but will try again when I can. I can not figure this out yet. My gut feeling is that if there is this much juice where the flash tube was, maybe we should be using it? and, I figure I am acting as a ground of some kind which is why it only lights while I am touching the copper battery holder, or holding my hand near the battery. Very strange. But, I will figure it out. (hopefully) I will post pictures either way after work. Everything is exactly like the Fuji circuit posted by Freezer's link. Everything matched up perfectly.
I installed a switch that even looked like the one in the photos that I got from an old flashlight. I checked it with the meter and it works like it should. Any ideas would be appreciated. Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 19, 2008, 02:15:00 AM

@ Pirate88179

I would guess that one side of the tube is not connected correctly. Try removing lead from each end of tube one at a time. If you can get the same results with one of the leads disconnected, then that lead is not connected to the circuit correctly. Touching the battery is probably providing capacitive coupling between tube and battery through your body.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 19, 2008, 02:24:35 AM

Thank you. I was thinking I was acting as a circuit bridge like Chevy chase in the "Spies Like Us" movie. So, I will check just as you suggest. It is actually pretty bright when I am in the circuit.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on December 19, 2008, 06:38:19 AM

Hey Bill,

Try using something non conductive to hold another battery or a magnet in proximity to see if either has an effect on the brightness.

And is it possible for the circuit to draw energy from the aether into the system by adding an aerial and a ground connection ?

It is always possible that hidden secrets can be found in anomalies.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 19, 2008, 12:07:46 PM

Quote from: Cap-Z-ro on December 19, 2008, 06:38:19 AM
Hey Bill,

Try using something non conductive to hold another battery or a magnet in proximity to see if either has an effect on the brightness.

And is it possible for the circuit to draw energy from the aether into the system by adding an aerial and a ground connection ?

It is always possible that hidden secrets can be found in anomalies.

Regards...

nice cap!

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 19, 2008, 07:15:47 PM

@ Pirate88179

??? I bought a 2 pack of Fuji cameras marked "continuous flash". The camera and circuit board looks like yours but the transformer is marked "99" instead of "T 9A". I do not have camera with macro so I can not post picture. Package bar code was "741010100811".

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 19, 2008, 08:10:19 PM

@ xee2:

I just checked real quick and mine is indeed marked T 9A on the side. Maybe yous is an equivalent one they bought from another supplier? Thanks for the info on troubleshooting. I didn't spend a lot of time with it last night, ended up working a surveillance case until 7:00 this morning. But, I did what you said and with one lead on and my touching anywhere near battery, it worked, with the other lead on, it did not. So, this is my bad connection somehow. It is soldered exactly at the point in the photos on Jose's site. Maybe this weekend I can check the connection again.

@Cap-Z-ro:

I will test as you suggested. Hey, you never know, maybe I screwed something up that will turn out to be a good thing. Then, I can take credit for planning on doing it that way all along, ha ha. Thanks for the input.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on December 19, 2008, 08:39:21 PM

" Then, I can take credit for planning on doing it that way all along, ha ha."

You know Bill, that probably was the case with more 'inventions' than we might think. :)

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 19, 2008, 09:23:18 PM

I checked the "99" transformer pin locations and they match Freezer's diagram. The transformer casing seems to be made of plastic.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 20, 2008, 04:31:12 AM

@ Pirate88179

Works per Freezer circuit. Brighter than Kodak but does not seem as bright as Freezer was getting, but I do not have neon bulb in parallel with tube. If you are still having trouble getting it to work - post photos of board near neon bulb (showing bulb), near diode (showing diode), and on other side of board near positive battery terminal, I will mark them up to show where to clip leads.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 20, 2008, 07:58:01 AM

@xee2

It does look okay!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Freezer on December 20, 2008, 01:42:13 PM

Quote from: xee2 on December 20, 2008, 04:31:12 AM
@ Pirate88179

Works per Freezer circuit. Brighter than Kodak but does not seem as bright as Freezer was getting, but I do not have neon bulb in parallel with tube. If you are still having trouble getting it to work - post photos of board near neon bulb (showing bulb), near diode (showing diode), and on other side of board near positive battery terminal, I will mark them up to show where to clip leads.

Nice work xee. Try a AA duracell, I think that will make the difference. Your image is labelled AAA, so I guess you are using a AAA? I think a AA will have higher amps to work with. I measured the output to be about 180vac and about 14vdc with a duracell AA. On my panel amp meter I got over 5 amps from the duracell alone short circuit. A typical AA can pack some power.

I tried powering a small computer fan with a rectifier, but it was very weak. The fan would barely spin but it would sustain a spin. It stutters along, but if you use a magnet at the right distance from the coil, it starts to spin smoothly, weakly, but maintains a spin. I'm wondering if a cap inline with the rectifier would improve performance. I'm also wondering is there any other ways to rectify ac other than a bridge rectifier? I read about submerging 2 specific types of electrodes in a certain solution to rectify ac, but I'm not sure how that works.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 20, 2008, 03:25:07 PM

@ Freezer

I think the reason your attempt to combine two circuits produced inconsistent results was because you were adding two voltages with varying phases. When they were in phase you got more voltage out, but when they were out of phase you got less voltage out. I think a betterr way to combine outputs from two transformers would be as follows. This should assure that the voltages always add in phase. But I have not tested this.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Freezer on December 20, 2008, 08:42:11 PM

Quote from: xee2 on December 20, 2008, 03:25:07 PM
@ Freezer

I think the reason your attempt to combine two circuits produced inconsistent results was because you were adding two voltages with varying phases. When they were in phase you got more voltage out, but when they were out of phase you got less voltage out. I think a betterr way to combine outputs from two transformers would be as follows. This should assure that the voltages always add in phase. But I have not tested this.

Thanks xee, I hooked it up as in your drawing and it works.
Made another video - :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEojrtKb48w&feature=channel_page

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on December 20, 2008, 09:39:15 PM

@ xee2 & Freezer

Nice collaborative work, that's the best looking JT circuit production yet :o

@ Freezer - Your video is great! Thanks!

Please if you could post the circuit on the first post of this thread, and lock it ;D

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 20, 2008, 11:20:11 PM

@ Freezer

Thanks for the feed back. I am glad you got it working. That should give more light than a single transformer circuit. However, you may want to heat sink the transistor since it is doing the work of two transistors.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 21, 2008, 10:59:16 AM

@all

I posted long ago a link of a guy that makes the cfl work with a 12v battery and a washer machine relay. I replicated the circuit and it works. It is just a little noisy. But it works.

I include here the schematic I composed using different schematics bits.

By the way. My goal is:
To run a motor with an 1.5v or 9v battery and recharge it while it is running the motor.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 21, 2008, 01:02:43 PM

@pirate and @all

Everybody is cordially invited to a new topic I posted.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6362.0;topicseen

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 21, 2008, 06:22:19 PM

Quote from: xee2 on December 20, 2008, 04:31:12 AM
@ Pirate88179

Works per Freezer circuit. Brighter than Kodak but does not seem as bright as Freezer was getting, but I do not have neon bulb in parallel with tube. If you are still having trouble getting it to work - post photos of board near neon bulb (showing bulb), near diode (showing diode), and on other side of board near positive battery terminal, I will mark them up to show where to clip leads.

Thanks, I will do that when I get a chance. As far as I can tell, I am tapped into the right places on the board and I did not short anything with excess solder to any other trails on the board. I am sure I did something incorrect however and will post a picture or two. I just got an el cheapo HD digital camera the other day as a back-up camera. It only cost $50.00, reg. $130.00 but was on sale. If nothing else, maybe I can make better videos of my experiments using it instead of the "video" part of my digital still camera. My good videocam is analog as judges still do not like evidence submitted in digital format, too easy to tamper with.

Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 21, 2008, 07:43:35 PM

xee2:

Here are some pics. The first one, as you can see, shows my connection to the board between the diode and the transformer. It does not cross over in to any other paths. It is hard to see from this angle but my wire comes in almost parallel to the board and connects to that point, and goes slightly beyond but it is above the board at that point. I attach my other wire to where the 4.7m resistor was from the other side as it was easier to keep from shorting out any other paths. Then, I attached my switch. What do you think?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 21, 2008, 08:02:27 PM

@pirate

That looks okay to me!
Just check the switch legs for shortcircuits with an ohmmeter.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 21, 2008, 08:06:14 PM

@ Jesus:

It should be...but, alas, it only lights up when I touch the battery or, when I hold my hand within 6-8 inches of the battery. I can control the brightness of the light by how close I hold my hand, or finger, to the battery itself. Very weird. If I can figure out my newest camera, I will make a vid and post to youtube showing the effects.

I may try resoldering my connections again, just to be sure.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 21, 2008, 08:10:54 PM

@pirate

It is been said that when you need to touch the light to get it going, that the cables are connected wrong. There is a post maybe a few pages back that explains to get one wire at a time from the lamp and touch to see if it ligths, the one that ligths with you touching something is alright, the other is at fault.

It is here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg144771#msg144771

Also check the polarity of the circuit. The polarity on Pino's circuit is wrong.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on December 21, 2008, 08:41:29 PM

I dunno Bill...I might want to leave that one as it is and build another one.

That thing sounds like it might lead to finding out how to receive aether energy.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 21, 2008, 08:44:56 PM

@ Jesus:

Thanks. Yes, I did that test as suggested by xee2. I fixed it now by resoldering one connection. Funny thing is, when I hooked up and removed each wire one at a time to see which it lit with and not, the wire I had to resolder was my "good" connection that lit it up when touching the battery. I have no idea why. I had a cold solder joint it seems but, I guess one could wire this with one wire only (the wire going near the transformer) and have it light like mine did by having your hand near the battery. I might add a switch to the wire going to where the resistor was so I can light it either way if I want.

Here is a picture...it is pretty bright in my opinion, especially considering the power source. (1 AA bat.) Thanks for everyone's help. This is a fun project. Can we make use of the high voltage form where the xenon bulb was? (I got zapped once holding the board there, plenty of juice) I guess Freezer already did this with his neon in this position. I believe he said his tube was brighter with the neon in the circuit, right?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 21, 2008, 09:03:34 PM

@ All:

OK, so now I decided to hook it up to an 18" long 15 watt tube just to see what happens.....IT LIGHTS!!!!!!!

First photo is without the flash, second is with the flash. You can see my circuit on the right (yellow AA battery that came in the camera) and the little tube on the left. (Not hooked up) This is fantastic and amazing to me!!!!! I think this is almost as bright as the smaller tube. Now I want to buy one of the 3 foot long tubes to see what happens. This is great!!!!!

Thank you all!!!!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 21, 2008, 09:34:20 PM

@ Pirate88179

Steps I took:
1. REMOVED LARGE CAPACITOR. Short with screw driver first. This is large enough to cause serious damage.
2. Cut lead at anode end of diode and fasten one end of tube to cathode end lead (end with the line on it).
3. Cut out neon bulb. Leave lead going to resistor. Fasten other end of tube to neon bulb lead going to resistor.
4. Short little lines on one side of holes to the lines on the other side of hole on trace side of board where shown in photo.

My circuit has stopped working so it seems they are easily damage (probably the transistor).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Freezer on December 21, 2008, 09:38:59 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 21, 2008, 08:44:56 PM

Good job Bill. :)
The neon didn't really make it brighter, but seemed to make it more stable. What makes a difference is the battery you use. I found the duracell was the best of what I had to work with as far as pure output. The two circuits in tandem still act out of sinc so I have to first switch to the neon, then the 2nd output and its stable. Maybe xee knows why.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 21, 2008, 09:42:09 PM

@ Pirate88179

You posted your success while I was posting so I guess you do not need it. Maybe it will help someone else.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 21, 2008, 09:59:55 PM

@xee2:

Yes, I did get it working but thank you. I am sure that will help someone, you made it very clear. Sorry to hear your stopped working. Something on mine, either the crystal or the transformer, emits a very high frequency sound. This sound was louder with the short tube than with the longer one. I am going to try to find a really long tube and give it a go. did your transistor get hot at all? If so, maybe a heat sink of some kind might correct this?

@ Freezer:

Thanks for the info on the neon. Is there anyway you can start them both at exactly the same time to "sync" them? May not be possible. Can you add a vr to each so you can "tune" them kind of like what Dr. Stiffler was doing?

@ all:

What about the power coming from where the flash bulb was? Can we use jumper wires and add this to our circuit to the tube? I will be tied up with work this week but I want to try several things now that this is working for me.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 21, 2008, 10:03:24 PM

@ xee2:

I just noticed on your instructions that you say to cut the diode lead? I did not do this. Mine is still in the circuit. Just for what that's worth. ***EDIT*** Also, I attached my other lead to the left side of where the resistor was that we removed, not the one you are showing. I looked on the circuit board, it may end up being the same thing but I don't think so.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 21, 2008, 10:59:10 PM

@ Pirate88179

Thanks for the feedback. I tried to duplicate Freezer circuit (but I may not have). If we try lots of different circuits maybe we will find that one of them is best. You seem to have equal or better results to mine. However, without cutting diode lead I think that you are only putting energy into the tube during half of each AC cycle and so you might get better results if you change your circuit. I may be wrong, but it seems that you have your tube in parallel with the diode, so current goes through diode instead of tube when it is forward biased.

PS - noise is probably coming from transformer. The wires are pulled back and forth by magnetic induction during each cycle.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 22, 2008, 12:12:06 AM

@xee2:

Thanks for the transformer info. I cut my connection to the board on the other end of the diode and, I have to say (subjective) the light is brighter. So, now it is lighting on both cycles of the ac right? The diode is no longer only allowing the one-way flow.

I modeled my board on the instructions from: http://josepino.com/circuits/?fluorescent_light

Freezer also helped me as did Jesus. (and you) I don't recall where he said to cut the diode but, it makes sense. Just like I don't like to see resistors unless they are protecting the transistor or some other vital component.

So, where do we go from here? Freezer is already tying two boards together. How much input do you think the components can stand? For example, can we put two AA bats in parallel to up the power? What about two in series to up the volts? What about the use of a larger transformer? I have salvaged some from several items I took apart.

I would like to stay with the single AA bat and see just how much we can get out of one. So, I guess this means larger coil or coils? I don't really know what I am doing....I know a little but I am learning a lot.

Thanks again. ***EDIT*** Funny thing. I just re-read Jose's instructions and some q&A at the bottom of the page. He told some guy who asked if this circuit would light a 6w bulb and Jose said no, only 4 watts max. How are we lighting 15 watt tubes then?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 22, 2008, 12:48:29 AM

nice job bill!

i agree with xee, you definitely wanna be running AC to the tube. you would want the diode under certain conditions like charging a cap, etc.
that's why there is one on the first pic i posted, it was for charging a capacitor bank for a coil gun.

from here, maybe a push pull config would be better?
they can't stand +3V for very long, the transistor gets blazing hot unless you change the resistor to something higher. i changed out the transistor in one for a D2525 and it seems to handle 3V input fine with that. a tip3055.might be worth a try with the bigger transformer you mentioned. a interesting thing to try bill is to 'replace' the xenon with the fluorescent tube and put the copper strap onto the center of the fluorescent tube as well. charge up the capacitor and flash the fluoro. this will need a circuit with the cap still in it and will also abuse your fluoro. but it is pretty bright.

3V drive is gonna give you much better light. 1.5V is kind of on that ragged edge and does strange things at times, like you noted with your connections.

anyone have a 10K pot to put in place of the resistor and find a 'sweet spot'? i only got 2k's on hand here.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on December 22, 2008, 01:16:04 AM

@ bill
Cap-Z-ro has a good point, we think you have stumbled (by accident) on a way to get the tube to strike other than by normal means.
Put it aside for awhile for a think about it, and begin with another one.

I got an underwater disposable camera (Marina) the other day, and pulled it apart, dare r lots of tiny weeeeeney screws.
Next step is to see if it will work normally outa the case, then take it to bits, ha ha.

There is a biGGG capacitor, no value on it, has a blank can, so I betta watch where I put my pinkies ::)

@all
Merry christmas to you all, and to all, happy juel thiefing ;D

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 22, 2008, 01:24:13 AM

@ Wilby:

Thank you! I forgot to mention you when I mentioned the folks that helped me. Sorry for the omission. These circuit boards are so cheap to acquire that even I can afford to screw around with them. I still have not went to my local film processing lab (I used to give them a lot of business prior to getting my digital still camera) and ask for some disposable cameras that they are going to toss out. Like someone said, if nothing else, a good supply of hardly used pretty good quality AA's.

Can we fashion some kind of heat sink for the transistors on these boards even though they have plastic housings? Does the transistor you recommended to me have provisions for adding a heat sink?

I am convinced that my strange operational characteristics were caused by a cold solder joint. I usually do better than that but, when soldering on a board, my little 25 watt iron can cook things pretty quick so I like to play it safe and not get hot enough as opposed to too hot and melting the board. I have not done much of this type of soldering. I was amazed that my color organ circuit worked as I had to solder about 30 components on a pc board and that was the first time I ever did that.

As far as a heat sink for the original transistors on the Fuji boards, my thought would be to use a tube of the correct ID that would slide over the housing. Maybe it only needs to be about 3 or 4 inches long but maybe that would help? (A good conductor of heat like aluminum or copper maybe?)

Heck, I have already been zapped a couple of times so now I think it is time to play. I also want to see how long a new AA bat will light my 15 watt 18" long tube. Maybe the components will give up before the bat dies? Jose (the guy on the link where I got the Fuji info) says it will light for about 2 hours. IF true, that is also incredible as I have had flashlights with 4 AA bats that were no where near this bright and would not run continuous for that long.

Again, thank you for the information and your help.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 22, 2008, 01:32:29 AM

Quote from: electricme on December 22, 2008, 01:16:04 AM
@ bill
Cap-Z-ro has a good point, we think you have stumbled (by accident) on a way to get the tube to strike other than by normal means.
Put it aside for awhile for a think about it, and begin with another one.

I got an underwater disposable camera (Marina) the other day, and pulled it apart, dare r lots of tiny weeeeeney screws.
Next step is to see if it will work normally outa the case, then take it to bits, ha ha.

There is a biGGG capacitor, no value on it, has a blank can, so I betta watch where I put my pinkies ::)

@all
Merry christmas to you all, and to all, happy juel thiefing ;D

jim

@ Jim:

Hey, that was no accident, I planned that the entire time. (ha ha) It works fine now but I am going to try another one with just the one lead hooked up as this was essentially my problem. I think it will work as mine did and you can control the tube brightness by moving your hand about. (Ok, so it was an accident) Also, the cap in my Fuji was unmarked as well. I guess this happens when you order like 50 million of something, no need to label.

Merry Christmas to you and your family and to everyone else on here. You all are a great group of fellows and I can hardly wait to see what happens next.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 22, 2008, 01:35:15 AM

no worries bill.
yeah maybe a sink out of copper tubing would work, or maybe a tube could be fashioned from aluminum foil? that way you could squeeze it around the transistor good with out worry of crushing it.
the tip3055 does have a heat sink mount. http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062611

if you're careful this shouldn't give you any tingles. try running 3v into it and keep a finger on the transistor so you can shut it off when it gets too hot so you don't fry it. it gets pretty hot within 30 seconds or so.

edit: the pinouts on the tip3055 are BCE, i'm not sure if that is the same as what's original on the fuji.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 22, 2008, 01:38:25 AM

Quote from Wilby:

"if you're careful this shouldn't give you any tingles."

Hey, I'll bet I can easily find a way to get zapped without even thinking about it, ha ha. Thanks. I'll check out my Radio Shack for this one you mentioned. ***EDIT*** Great idea with the foil. Easy to make correct sized tube from it.

Merry Christmas!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 22, 2008, 02:05:37 AM

@ Pirate88179

In answer to your question, "What do we do next"? I am going to buy another camera and build a new board. But I think that trying to get higher output voltage will lead to most interesting results (such as lighting tube with only one connection). The voltage can be increased by driving with 3 volts. But that heats up transistor unless resistor is changed. Using 3 volt battery and changing 220 ohm resistor to 440 ohms should keep transistor from heating up and give higher output voltage (but same output power so tube will not be brighter). The higher voltage will allow circuit to be completed with smaller capacitive coupling to tube and make it easier to light tube with only a single wire. Actually transistor gain is not linear, so resistor value may need adjusting - but I hope you get the idea.

An advantage of the way I am modifying circuit is that it does not require any soldering - just cut some leads and make connections with ez-hooks.

Happy Holidays.

EDIT - You can not heat sink plastic transistor. You will need to replace it with metal case transistor or plastic transistor with metal heat sink built in.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 22, 2008, 02:22:46 AM

@ xee2:

Sounds good. I had another thought....yes it happens. Instead of upping the voltage, can we up the power by going with a C or D battery? If nothing else, may not be brighter but would last longer correct? (maybe not)

As far as the one wire goes, I think that is what I already did with my cold solder joint right? My next board will have just the wire soldered near the transformer which should allow it to light up when a hand or finger is near the battery. That, I believe, is essentially what I accidentally had before with only an AA battery and my bad joint near the removed resistor location. Maybe for one wire operation without using our bodies to help the circuit we need a higher frequency? and, possibly, the ability to tune it somehow? Would an AV plug help us in this situation? (for the one wire set-up) I think I need a larger brain.

Merry Christmas.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: AbbaRue on December 22, 2008, 02:26:41 AM

Dr. Stiffler uses 1/4 inch copper tubing for a heat sink on his boards.
Just cut a piece an inch long and crimp it over the transistor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 22, 2008, 02:28:11 AM

@ AbbaRue:

That's right. I remember that now that you mentioned it. Thanks for posting this. Merry Christmas to you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 22, 2008, 03:11:02 AM

@ Pirate88179

C or D cell will last longer. The transistor is problem with increasing power. Heat sink needs to cool the transistor chip which means it has to make contact with the silicon chip that transistor is made of. This is not possible in plastic case. Heat sinking plastic case will not help cool chip because plastic is a poor heat conductor. Cooling plastic case may help a little but not much. In plastic case most of heat is conducted away by the collector lead which does connect to the transistor chip.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 22, 2008, 03:18:42 AM

@ xee2:

Yes, I was afraid of that. But, since the leads of the transistor go directly to the silicon, could we not place some type of heat sink on them? I mean, I did that when soldering transistors on my color organ. (I have a tendency to fry things if I am not careful, like LEDs) I am probably reaching here but, if the leads are kept cool, maybe at least some of the heat will not reach the silicon? If not, I guess this means replacing the transistor with one designed to handle more power and a heatsink. I was just trying to keep it as simple as possible. Thanks for your answer.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 22, 2008, 06:53:49 AM

well guys i took apart an old 35 mill cam not a disposable one ;)

and i got some cap values the cap was marked lol ;)

it looks much similar to ones in the disposal ones same size in shape anyways...

values are ...

350 sv 160uf photo 55deg c

maybe it matters..... :)

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 22, 2008, 07:56:31 AM

Congratulations @pirate for your success!!!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 22, 2008, 01:00:01 PM

Quote from: xee2 on December 22, 2008, 03:11:02 AM
@ Pirate88179

C or D cell will last longer. The transistor is problem with increasing power. Heat sink needs to cool the transistor chip which means it has to make contact with the silicon chip that transistor is made of. This is not possible in plastic case. Heat sinking plastic case will not help cool chip because plastic is a poor heat conductor. Cooling plastic case may help a little but not much. In plastic case most of heat is conducted away by the collector lead which does connect to the transistor chip.

while i agree that plastic is not as good of a heat conductor as a metal tab, you can heatsink them as was mentioned earlier.
see stifflers thread http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3457.msg111237#msg111237
here in these pictures you can see the copper tube. you can see it in several of the doc's pictures as well. it does indeed work.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 22, 2008, 01:30:28 PM

@ all

It seems that the schematic of Fuji camera on the Jose Pino web page is not correct. Pin 1 of transformer does not seem to connect to neon bulb. The following appears to be the actual circuit I have. Pin 1 is connected to shutter switch or second transformer.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 22, 2008, 03:22:55 PM

I am about to modify my fiji board but one question first, why don't we use the high voltage coil, would it not be preferable to have the highest voltage spike. Ok it only has a switch on it but if it had a 555 or relay switch could we not get higher voltage and more control on frequency of the pulse ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 22, 2008, 03:49:42 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on December 22, 2008, 03:22:55 PM
I am about to modify my fiji board but one question first, why don't we use the high voltage coil, would it not be preferable to have the highest voltage spike. Ok it only has a switch on it but if it had a 555 or relay switch could we not get higher voltage and more control on frequency of the pulse ?

are you referring to the trigger coil when you say high voltage coil?
the transformer steps up the 1.5 volts from the battery to +300 volts or so. the trigger coil then steps this up to 2000 volts or so to slap the xenon with and make it flash while the +300 volts from the capacitor is across its electrodes. so the transformer is a larger step up than the trigger coil is. hope that helps.

i played around with the trigger coil added to the circuit. i never found a configuration where it made an impressionable difference. i'm sure i didn't cover all the bases, so don't take this as discouragement to try.

i found that when running it off a single wire, adding a aluminum coupling plate like in the stiffler thread did increase brightness.

@all
if you wanna run fluoros for peanuts, replicate stifflers SEC.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Freezer on December 22, 2008, 04:44:26 PM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on December 22, 2008, 03:49:42 PM
@all
if you wanna run fluoros for peanuts, replicate stifflers SEC.

I agree, I have 2 of his boards and they are great, although they do take more input to run. I'm wondering if he's gonna release the next higher power version..Be pretty cool to make a hho candle like he has.. :) Maybe put that flame under a tec with heatsink and feed the power back through a cap... I don't see any reason why that wouldn't work.., although you would need some type of water drip system.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 22, 2008, 04:45:58 PM

Sorry that's what i meant, trigger coil like the word says needs to be triggered like a transformer needs ac to work the best voltage comes from square waves , so if its only connected it dose' not work it just deflect the flow. The switch for the flash makes the spike so it needs to be switch on and off to be working. I not sure but my experiment with batteries and coil showed me that if you put voltage in a large enough coil and switch it on and off quickly the spark gap is a lot bigger and you get more voltage when you disconnect the coil , my voltmeter showed up to 1880 volts and no its not multimeter problem , using a simple and crude switching by hand method got a 120 volt neon to flash from a 9 volt battery . So i assume the same could be done here. So i don't really know how to explain it seems like the electricity activated copper transmitting the voltage slap back into place whit greater speed and force when the current is cut.
I hope it makes more sense.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 22, 2008, 05:06:54 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on December 22, 2008, 04:45:58 PM
Sorry that's what i meant, trigger coil like the word says needs to be triggered like a transformer needs ac to work the best voltage comes from square waves , so if its only connected it dose' not work it just deflect the flow. The switch for the flash makes the spike so it needs to be switch on and off to be working. I not sure but my experiment with batteries and coil showed me that if you put voltage in a large enough coil and switch it on and off quickly the spark gap is a lot bigger and you get more voltage when you disconnect the coil , my voltmeter showed up to 1880 volts and no its not multimeter problem , using a simple and crude switching by hand method got a 120 volt neon to flash from a 9 volt battery . So i assume the same could be done here. So i don't really know how to explain it seems like the electricity activated copper transmitting the voltage slap back into place whit greater speed and force when the current is cut.
I hope it makes more sense.

i think i understand you, i may have cause a misunderstanding with the way i stated i had hooked up the trigger coil.
"so if its only connected it dose' not work it just deflect the flow." if the trigger coil is connected to the transformer which is being pulsed, it too is being pulsed.
i tried numerous configs, trigger in series to the transformer then to tube. trigger used as added inductance, etc. i found no improvement, please try and if you find a way, please let us know.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 22, 2008, 05:20:14 PM

Thanks, WilbyInebriated for info. Just on more thing , have you tried it with or without the big cap?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 22, 2008, 05:50:36 PM

@ All:

I just illuminated a 40 watt 48" long tube tonight!!!!!! The brightness is not bad, not bad at all. In the picture with the flash, you can see my Fuji circuit with the single AA battery! This is nuts.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 22, 2008, 05:52:33 PM

Here is one more shot. I had to buy two of these 48" long tubes so I think I will try to light them both. I really do find this unbelievable.... 40 watts!!! Well, ok, it is not full brightness so probably not full 40 watts but it is a 40 watt tube.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 22, 2008, 06:42:42 PM

Great work! Pirate88179 , have you tried a earth ground?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 22, 2008, 06:59:32 PM

@ all

WARNING - I bought another camera at the same store from the same shelf and it is different than the previous one I bought. The transformer is marked T26 and the circuit board traces are physically different (but may be electrically the same). Transformer pins also seem to be different. On the package it says "82% reused or recycled". Therefore there is no guarantee that if you buy one it will work the same as in the posts here.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: maw2432 on December 22, 2008, 07:14:33 PM

@ Pirate

Bill, Great work! How long does it light with one AA battery?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 22, 2008, 07:15:20 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on December 22, 2008, 06:42:42 PM
Great work! Pirate88179 , have you tried a earth ground?

Thanks. Well, when I can, I am going to attempt to power this using only my earth battery using 2 grounded electrodes. I can usually get almost 2 vdc out of it and somewhere around 30 mA's, give or take. I don't know if that is enough or not, we will see. It should at least run several LEDs on the smaller joule thief circuit.

What are you suggesting an earth ground might do with our Fuji board circuits? I would have to modify the battery holder to attempt this. Do you think this would increase light output?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 22, 2008, 07:23:03 PM

Quote from: maw2432 on December 22, 2008, 07:14:33 PM
@ Pirate

Bill, Great work! How long does it light with one AA battery?

Bill

Thanks. I have not tried to see how long it will light as of yet. I will probably wait until I can rig up a heat sink for the transistor before attempting that. All of the pictures I have posted using this circuit and the various experiments have all used the same AA bat. I am guessing the total run-time on that battery is about 45 minutes or so. But, I have been using larger and larger tubes as I go so, I have no idea how long it might run with the 40 watt tubes.

@xee2:

Thanks for the warning. Geeze, that's all we need. I was just getting to understand this circuit and now, maybe we can't get them anymore? When I get a chance, I will try to pick up a few more to see if they are the same as what I started with. Be good to have them around.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 22, 2008, 08:04:04 PM

@ all

The board in the new camera I bought has a red LED instead of a clear neon bulb. I guess LEDs are cheaper so they changed the board to use them. The other components seem to be the same. Packaging was 100% the same for both cameras.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 22, 2008, 08:13:06 PM

@ xee2:

Mine did not have a neon, it had an led. I don't remember what color, I dumped it into my LED supply box when I removed it and it is mixed in. Maybe you now have the board I am using?

I have been working tonight but if I can, I will try the two tubes and see what happens. I may fry something who knows?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 22, 2008, 10:11:38 PM

@ all.

Steps I took for Fuji board with LED (no soldering required):

1. REMOVED LARGE CAPACITOR. Short with screw driver first. This can be left on board but is large enough to cause serious damage and should be removed just to be safe.
2. Cut lead at anode end of diode and fastened one end of tube to lead at cathode end of diode (end with the line on it).
3. Connected other end of tube to battery negative clip.
4. Shorted little lines on one side of hole to the lines on the other side of hole (on trace side of board where shown in my previous photo).

EDIT: Same steps will work for Fuji board with neon bulb.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 22, 2008, 10:27:41 PM

@ xee2:

Great! Will it light the larger tubes this way? Your way is a lot easier than what I did. If it works the same, less work is better.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 22, 2008, 10:45:18 PM

@ Pirate88179

I don't have a large tube, but it will light up pretty bright when doing the Tesla magic trick. I removed lead to the battery negative clip.

EDIT: frequency is about 10 KHz

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 22, 2008, 11:02:08 PM

Last night, I took apart a CFL and unfortunately, one of the 4 wires broke off down inside the thermal cement at the base of the bulb. The others I have taken apart had longer leads that you could cut. This one when you pried the base off it was being held to the circuit board by these leads.

Anyway, I hooked up one wire from each side of the coiled glass tube to the Fuji board and it would not light.....unless I touched the glass tube somewhere. No matter how I hooked up the wires (Minus the broken one) this was the case. I didn't take any photos because 1. I had to be touching the tube and did not want to damage my camera with any voltage passing through me, and 2. although it did light up it was not very bright and I was not impressed. This may have been too large of a bulb as it was supposed to replace 100 watt incandescent ones. Also, it was burned out which was why I took it apart in the first place.

Does any one else have this problem with cfl's? I live in a very small place and all of my bulbs are cfl's. I use about 12 of them. In the last 6 months, I have had to replace 7 of them that burned out, three of which burned up. (actually caught fire!!!) Last year, I had to replace about 4 of them. I have only been using these for about a year and a half. In my experience, they don't last anywhere near as long as my old Edison bulbs. And now, in the US we are being forced to buy these as regular light bulbs will soon be illegal. I can buy GE cfl's (made in China) or some off brand (made in China) and it does not seem to make a difference on longevity.

I would be interested in knowing any of you guy's experience with these things. Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 22, 2008, 11:15:29 PM

@ Pirate88179

Wow - caught on fire, how scary. I have been using them for several years. My patio light is on all night, every night, and lasts for about two years. I think they are all made in China.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on December 22, 2008, 11:23:12 PM

A couple of things about the CFL's.

First, there have been many house fires in the last couple of years that were caused by CFL's. I'll have to try and dig up that article. Secondly, the CFL's purchased in North America do not have a power factor correcting capacitor in them. This means that we are actually paying for more hydro then we are actually using. These capacitors would probably cost an additional .02 cents to have them installed. As far as I am aware, the CFL's in Europe do have these capacitors. The problem here in Canada is that the European bulb are not CSA certified meaning we can't use them. If our house happens to burn down because of the CFL, and they can see that the bulb is not CSA approved, good luck in collecting insurance. I have that article too somewhere. If anyone would like to see it, let me know and I'll dig them up.

Tim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 22, 2008, 11:26:06 PM

xee2, tesla stick !nice! Have tried a earth ground instead of your body for negative pole ?

Also could we modify the remaining circuit in the the cfl blub to work from a AA cell, changing the transistor ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 23, 2008, 12:01:15 AM

@ Mk1

Have not tried ground rod but I am sure it would work. Freezer has already posted photo of CFL working from AA battery.

EDIT: actually I am not sure. It works by capacitive coupling. I assume it will capacitively couple to ground as well as body.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 23, 2008, 12:26:30 AM

I have seen some of lidmotor movies and in some cases it got a brighter light with earth ground .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 23, 2008, 01:12:22 AM

if you are running one wire off the high voltage with the other unconnected, you can observe this capacitive coupling with a sheet of aluminum foil. connect the foil to the side of the tube that is not connected to the circuit and the tube will be brighter, touch that foil with your hand and the tube will get brighter yet.

@mk1
no, i never tried it with the big cap, but i did use the smaller .22pf? cap from another camera circuit.

@pirate
wow a four foot bulb! damn

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on December 23, 2008, 03:32:56 AM

@ all,
How to cool a plastic transistor running over its specs. ::)
This is easy to do, but it is not something we see every day and most people don't think of it at all.

Solder to the transister 3 insulated wires about 8 inches long to the Base Collector and Emitter.
Solder the ends to the correct connection points on the PCB. ;)

Hunt in the kitchen for a small glass open top jar, about 2" high and 2" accross, a babies preteething jelly jar. (don't tell the wife) as Ironhead says "DO IT"
It should have a pop on - off flat lid (eat the contents "yum" or throw it away), wash the jar and dry it. :P

Plonk the transister into the empty jar
Poor in some engine oil or light machine oil. ;D

Now the oil acts as a really good heat sink, it covers the whole transister, not just the back of it.
The elect authority uses the same principles on their power pole transformers to cool them down, they have heat fins.
The same is used on ignition coils, they are all imersed in special transformer oil, does the same job.
No different to cooling down a stubbon hot transister.
If the oil gets very hot, plonk in a bit of finned ally and connect a 12v DC computer fan to it. ;)

Mostly this is self cooling, as the oil close to the transister gets hot, it rises, the cooler oil decends, so it will self cool your transister.

Problem fixed.
Note, don't tip jar over, or it is kitty litter time ha ha :D

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on December 23, 2008, 04:51:58 AM

@all
Wow this thread is going like the clappers, look at the pages, getting bigger faster than I can read them.

@ Bill
congrats on getting your big 40Watt fluros to light up
Good achievement, you earn 10 stars ha ha.

Bill you asked if others are having the CFL treatment, ahhh ha, we are in Australia, we are being forced to buy CFLs, last month the premier anna bligh gave away coupons in the local rag so every one could get a packet of 2 CFLs, the person who got the "green" glower got a free car.
If you break a CFL, the mercury in gas form trickles out, now I wonder if there is a way to soak it up.
I learned in High School science lab, if one heats red lead powder, in a test tube, mercury can be seen to come out.
Yep, and now all the tungston element ones have dissapearred of fthe shelves.
Tungston bulbs cost us 25c to buy, CFLs cost mininum of $3 now that a backward step in anyones langwige.

I was very concerned to hear of your experiences when these CFLs fail bill, If that poster can send or post that info he mentioned I'll read up on it.

Going to do a bit of thinking about the power factor prob, got to be a way around it.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on December 23, 2008, 05:01:47 AM

@ Mr Mag
Could you post a diagram of where the power factor capacitor is placed in the circuit, I got an idea for a fix, but I need some more info.

It would be illegal to modify an existing CFL, then put it back into service, but, could the capacitor be placed midways in a very short extension plug and light socket? that way, the CFL isnt opened up. Am I on the right track, Tim?

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on December 23, 2008, 07:02:30 AM

I posted a item on CFL's on some other thread...according to the report they emit harmful radiation.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: wizkycho on December 23, 2008, 09:30:42 AM

Hi !

sorry to bump in

this seems simmilar enough (at least biffilar)
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/tepcoil.htm

1. has really enyone tried discharging one cap at input and filling up the other at output
after that calculate reamaining energy in both caps.
2. can someone try to energize diode and meassure input current using circuit above (but using biff coil from Joules Thief)
now led will lit when Tr is open and allso when Tr is closed from BEMF...

just speculation...I'll try it - maybe cascading is possible...

Wiz

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on December 23, 2008, 10:23:55 AM

Electricme,

I am not sure exactly where to place the capacitor in the circuit.

I could not find the original document that I read this in but here is another version of the same story. http://sound.westhost.com/articles/incandescent.htm
The information about power factor is close to the end of the page.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Freezer on December 23, 2008, 12:55:01 PM

Quote from: MrMag on December 23, 2008, 10:23:55 AM
Electricme,

I am not sure exactly where to place the capacitor in the circuit.

I could not find the original document that I read this in but here is another version of the same story. http://sound.westhost.com/articles/incandescent.htm
The information about power factor is close to the end of the page.

Interesting article. I also use LED lights, as opposed to incandescent or cfl bulbs. I have a lamp which is the equivalent to a 60w incandescent, but only draws 4 watts.. Led is the way to go..Less power consumption, runs cooler, outputs a pure white light, and lasts longer. You can also drop an led and its not gonna break. On another note, I once met a teacher in college that said he knew a guy who worked for a company who manufactured light bulbs, and had said they came up with a light bulb that would last a lifetime, but said it was covered up, since it would decrease their profits.. :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 23, 2008, 01:23:38 PM

@ Pirate88179

Tesla magic trick (only one wire to tube, other end of tube held in hand) using AAA battery and Fuji board.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 23, 2008, 04:05:39 PM

@ xee2:

Nice work. That is how I lit my cfl but no where near as bright. If you had larger tubes, I'll bet that would work also. One thing I did notice is that even though my first tube (the small one, same as yours) was ok in brightness, the 18" tube was brighter and the 48" tube brighter yet, for whatever reasons. I almost didn't try the larger tubes because I thought there was no way for it to work unless the small tube was super bright. I have no idea why this is except that we are exciting more (larger) gas volume so more light because it is spread out over a longer area maybe? BTW you said AAA battery, is this correct or typo? Mine was running on the AA battery it came with. If it was the AAA battery, this is good news for me for trying it off my earth battery. (lower mA's)

@ Jim:

Thanks. I still have a few more things to try. Yes, the cfl stuff is BS! I hate when people (the government) mess with the free markets. IF indeed this bulb were actually better and more cost effective, they would not have to outlaw Edison bulbs because no one would buy them anymore and they would close down. The fact that this is not happening tells me a lot. So, they have to artificially control the markets. Also here, we can't just throw them away. They have to be treated like hazardous waste (which they are due to the mercury) and sent to a center. And, if one breaks in your home, you are not allowed to clean it up, you have to call in a hazardous materials clean-up company which, as I have heard many stories on the radio, charge many hundreds if not thousands to do so. What a scam. I will never run one of those if I am not home, or if I am asleep. The first one that went bad, I had smelled something like a hot electrical circuit all morning but could not find where it was coming from. A little while later, I walked into the bathroom and turned on the cfls and...poof the smell I had smelled all morning with the lights OFF came in a big rush and black smoke poured from one of the lamps. I cut the switch and grabbed a towel and unscrewed it and dropped in in the sink where it had ignited the plastic housing and was burning pretty good. I flushed it with water and it went out ok. The nest one was in my bedroom and it gave no warning at all...flipped the switch and....poof....black smoke and flames...another plastic fire. Same drill....towel, unscrew....sink...water. The paper here said many of the local house fires were determined to be caused by these stupid things. I am switching to all LEDs as soon as I can. Great idea on the oil cooler for the transistors, I believe Tesla is the one that started doing that for some of his transformer coils. Probably would not need much volume of oil at all for this. Good thinking.

@ Wilby:

Thanks.! I can't wait for my next trick....ha ha.

@ Freezer:

Did you make your LED bulbs or buy them? I know Ccrane Company has some but they are very high. I believe we could make out own using a small/simple ac to dc inverter and a number of super bright 100 mm LEDS. If you did make your own, could you share with us how you did it? I know these are the lights of the future and maybe even the present. My Christmas tree (very small one) has 2 100 led stings on it. (200 LEDs total) They cost almost nothing to run, don't get hot....last forever....what more could we want?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 23, 2008, 04:20:31 PM

Quote from: wizkycho on December 23, 2008, 09:30:42 AM
Hi !

sorry to bump in

this seems simmilar enough (at least biffilar)
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/tepcoil.htm

1. has really enyone tried discharging one cap at input and filling up the other at output
after that calculate reamaining energy in both caps.
2. can someone try to energize diode and meassure input current using circuit above (but using biff coil from Joules Thief)
now led will lit when Tr is open and allso when Tr is closed from BEMF...

just speculation...I'll try it - maybe cascading is possible...

Wiz

You may want to look at Captainpecan's topic: My gift to overunity, or something like that. He has videos and discussions where he charged one cap, ran a motor with it, dumped it into another cap (50/50 split) and then both caps added together had more than he started with in the first place. There was a lot of debate back and forth on this one so I don't really know the outcome as of now.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 23, 2008, 04:31:31 PM

Quote from: MrMag on December 23, 2008, 10:23:55 AM
Electricme,

I am not sure exactly where to place the capacitor in the circuit.

I could not find the original document that I read this in but here is another version of the same story. http://sound.westhost.com/articles/incandescent.htm
The information about power factor is close to the end of the page.

I am quoting MrMag's link here again in case anyone missed it. This is important! This is exactly what I have experienced (I should have taken photos of what was left of mine) and the article is excellent.

Thank you for posting it. What kind of product are they forcing on us where it is considered "normal" for it to burn up at the end of its life span? Heck, even the Ford Pinto got recalled after all of the lawsuits. Hey, we should call these the Ford Pinto of light bulbs.

Excellent post, thank you. *EDIT** I wanted to add that 2 of my 3 failures were in the bathroom fixture that the article says these are not recommended for. I don't recall reading that on the packaging. And, if we can't use these in the bathroom, what are we to use? I am going all LED as soon as I can.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 23, 2008, 04:41:26 PM

@ Pirate88179

Yes, it is running on a single AAA (the same one I have been using for a while). But, it does not look as bright when the lights are on (that's why I took the picture with the lights out). It gets brighter when the second wire is connected. After Christmas I will try try it with a longer tube.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 23, 2008, 04:50:17 PM

@ xee2:

Thanks for the clarification. This is great news for me I think. I am a little low on the mA side on my earth battery as it now sits so this may work without any modifications. Thank you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Freezer on December 23, 2008, 04:52:05 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 23, 2008, 04:05:39 PM
@ Freezer:
Did you make your LED bulbs or buy them? I know Ccrane Company has some but they are very high. I believe we could make out own using a small/simple ac to dc inverter and a number of super bright 100 mm LEDS. If you did make your own, could you share with us how you did it? I know these are the lights of the future and maybe even the present. My Christmas tree (very small one) has 2 100 led stings on it. (200 LEDs total) They cost almost nothing to run, don't get hot....last forever....what more could we want?
Bill

You can get led bulbs online, many stores sell them now. You don't need lots of leds, they sell higher power leds where you only need 1 or a few to get the brightness of a 100w bulb. The cree leds are pretty good.

I haven't ordered from here, but was thinking I'd get a few of these.
http://www.ledwholesalers.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=197

They also sell cft replacement led modules here. They are pretty expensive though.
http://www.luxeonstar.com/fluorescent-tube-leds-c-15.php

I bought one of these a while ago and its a great light. The power is fed through the actual hinges so no wire to loosen and break off when adjusting the lamp position.
http://www.konceptech.com/zbar.html

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 23, 2008, 05:17:24 PM

@ Freezer:

Thanks, great links. Yes, a little pricey on the tube replacement ones but hey, I wonder if we could power one of them with our circuit and a single AA even brighter due to their lower power requirements? A lot of money to find out though.
I will buy some of the other style but I am still going to make a few on my own if I can. I can see it now...."Fire Marshall traces origin of fire to strange contraption stuck in light socket." Hopefully not.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on December 23, 2008, 05:33:50 PM

" They also sell cft replacement led modules here. They are pretty expensive though.
http://www.luxeonstar.com/fluorescent-tube-leds-c-15.php "

Thank you Freezer...I have been searching for alternative lighting for my office for about a year now.

That link is among my best christmas presents ever...and sadly, yes I have led a cloistered and meager existence.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Thaelin on December 23, 2008, 05:40:17 PM

You have to admit, the light from Pirates big tube was impressive for the watt draw. That would be great for background lighting and really effecient too. Where you need point lights, use the high power Led's and save a bunch.
Has anyone here tried to light up a tube that was removed from service due to the blackened ends? Just wondering if they would still be usable as well. We used to do that to them for fun on the dance floor. Via transformer to the output of the amps, would light to the music.

thaelin

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on December 23, 2008, 06:20:21 PM

@ MrMag
Thanks for the input, but I gess I really need a circuit of the actual CFL that Bill had troubles with, so Bill have you got the circuit or do you know if there is a http address where I could get hold of it?

@bill (and others)
BTW many years ago I did a TV course on Studio lighting, and one of the things I learnt was D65 which is the frequency of light we get from the sun. A mixture of all colours that make up white light as we see without effort.

The fluros and white LEDs don't put out this frequency, so our eyes struggle to adjust to the "white" light.
The older 40W fluros had a different phosphor formula to glow at this frequency, but because the "white" was "deemed" to be not so brighter, it went to brighter than white. A bit like marketing for washing the clothes, one brand makes the wash brighter.
So since marketing came on the bandwagon, (more dollars and profit) the output was altered to reflect that.

You can see what I mean by comparing the output of a tungston globe to the CFL light.
I see certain brands have cottoned onto this and are making efforts to produce CFL at "daylight" outputs.
If someone has a bunch of yellow LEDs and a mechanics LED torch light, try swapping 1/3rd of the ultra bright white LEDs for the yellow ones. When you use it, whatever you look at seems to be easier on the eyes. Its a light spectrum thing.

If you go to a butcher shop and look in the meat display cabinet, the meat looks red, if there is fish in the same cabinet, the fish dosent look so good, If you look under the top of the display cabinet, the fluro tubes look "different". These are specially designed to "enhance" the look of the red meat, tricking you that the meat product is better than excellent, ha, lots of light frequencies to trick us up.

If you take a ordinary garden LED solar light, a high white LED and a orange LED one and compair them at night, you can bet london to a brick that you will be able to see further with the yellow/orange unit than the Ultra White ones.

Street lights, the Mercury Vapor light puts out bright white light.
The Lo/Hi pressure sodium lamp puts out a yellow orange light which "seems" to go further.
Its a frequency thing our eyes work best below the ultra white light, better towards the yellow end of the light spectrim.

With that merry xmas all, I will sign off for a few days.
jim
electricme

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Freezer on December 23, 2008, 07:14:44 PM

Quote from: electricme on December 23, 2008, 06:20:21 PM
If you take a ordinary garden LED solar light, a high white LED and a orange LED one and compair them at night, you can bet london to a brick that you will be able to see further with the yellow/orange unit than the Ultra White ones.

I have to kindly disagree. ;D If this was true they would construct led flashlights using yellow/orange leds rather than white. No disrespect, it's just that I've been a long time flashlight freak, and actually have tried many spectrums of leds in flashlights and the warmer spectrum doesn't do so good. I agree it might be harsher than the warm spectrum, but as far as illumination distance and viewing the whites win. The colored leds will most of the time not appear as bright, simply because of the surrounding pigments, although the human eye responds to green the best. It might work well in a foggy atmosphere though, due to the longer wavelength. Objects under my led lamp do look very different from traditional lights as you stated, I've looked at some foods with it, and I was shocked at how different it looked. Avocados look weird.. :)

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 23, 2008, 05:17:24 PM
I will buy some of the other style but I am still going to make a few on my own if I can. I can see it now...."Fire Marshall traces origin of fire to strange contraption stuck in light socket." Hopefully not.
Bill

Might want to take a look at this site. They have great stuff. They have a big variety of led parts, including 10,20 and even 50w leds. They also have the smaller cree emitters which are some of the best leds at that power range. This is the only store I've found that actually sells tritium vials to the us. There is a work around as you can get larger tritium vials through exit signs. ;) Imagine a huge wall of tritium paired with a 100% efficient printable solar panel. I've been wondering if that would actually work?
http://www.dealextreme.com/products.dx/category.917

Quote from: Cap-Z-ro on December 23, 2008, 05:33:50 PM

You might want to shop around a bit, as I haven't checked if that's the cheapest place to buy them. I know luxeon is kind of expensive all around.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 23, 2008, 09:09:11 PM

Hey:

I just lit up 2 40 watt tubes end to end here!!!! I have more pics and will post. all still from the single AA battery!!!

Bill ***EDIT*** I forgot to add this. I could not get the second tube (the one on the left) to light completely. If you look close, there is a very strong neo magnet on the right end of the left tube. I started out on the left end of the left tube and moved the magnet along the length and the light followed it. So, for the pictures, I left the magnet sitting on the right end of the left tube on top.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 23, 2008, 09:10:49 PM

More pics.....

I still think these get brighter the more I add. Is this a new record? I can't believe this.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on December 23, 2008, 09:23:53 PM

Thats really impressive Bill...have you tried connecting the end terminal of the second tube back around to the first tube...mabye using a diode ?

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 23, 2008, 09:29:40 PM

@ Cap:

No, I have not...but now that you suggested it I will. I think I see what you are getting at. If it is a chance for more light, I will do it, ha ha.

@ All:

I wanted to mention this observation to you. When lighting the 6" tube (4 watt I think?) the transformer was singing in a high frequency squeal which xee2 explained was the wires moving. Well, as my tubes got longer this got a little quieter. Now with 2 48" tubes back to back, the circuit is totally quiet and even after running for over 5 minutes while I was trying to get pics, the transistor was cool. I don't know if it is resonance or not but this circuit seems to like this larger load for whatever reason. Of course, maybe this circuit gets quiet and cool just before it blows.....who knows?

I hope someone else replicates this so I know I am not nuts.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Freezer on December 23, 2008, 09:39:27 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 23, 2008, 09:29:40 PM
@ Cap:

No, I have not...but now that you suggested it I will. I think I see what you are getting at. If it is a chance for more light, I will do it, ha ha.

@ All:

I wanted to mention this observation to you. When lighting the 6" tube (4 watt I think?) the transformer was singing in a high frequency squeal which xee2 explained was the wires moving. Well, as my tubes got longer this got a little quieter. Now with 2 48" tubes back to back, the circuit is totally quiet and even after running for over 5 minutes while I was trying to get pics, the transistor was cool. I don't know if it is resonance or not but this circuit seems to like this larger load for whatever reason. Of course, maybe this circuit gets quiet and cool just before it blows.....who knows?

I hope someone else replicates this so I know I am not nuts.
Bill

Good job Bill. I lit 2 40w and half a 15w, but could not light 3 40w, so I think that's as far as the amperage will push. It is weird how you can pull the light down the tube with your hand. Interesting how you used a magnet..Ill have to try that. I tried a industrial energizer AA and it lights brighter, so I think the industrials can put out a bit more power than regular AA.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on December 23, 2008, 09:43:26 PM

Also Bill...try a magnet on the opposite side of the tube from the first magnet...a couple on the first tube wouldn't hurt either, using various polarity arrangements.

I am intrigued that you have a magnet having an amplification effect on electricity.

There's a lesson in here somewhere.

Unfortunately now you're stuck buying more tubes to find out where the limit of the system lies. :)

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Freezer on December 23, 2008, 09:48:06 PM

I can confirm the tube does brighten with a magnet near it..I wonder why...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 23, 2008, 09:49:48 PM

@ Freezer:

Thanks! Geeze, I thought I was the first....darn. (ha ha) I tried my hand first as I have read that this work...but...nothing. Then I got my very strong neo (it was out of one of those shake flashlights) and it "pulled" the light down the tube as I went. When I removed it, it went out so, for the photos, I just left it sitting there.

Well, I did one 48", and then two, and I was going to go for three but....after what you said....now I don't know. (I would have to buy two more as they only come in a 2-pack)

My Fuji came with an industrial AA bat. But, it has to be weak by now with all of my testing. (maybe not)

I may go ahead and try for 3 in a few days. I have plenty of magnets and maybe it will take a few of them to get it to light. I am not really sure why the magnets do this. I have an idea but, if I am right, leaving them on there (taped to the tube even) does not bother me.

It reminds me of when I got my cheap TV from Walmart. It always had a blue spot near the upper right side of the picture. One day, I was messing around with a small neo (God only knows why) and I found that when I held it behind the picture tube (screen) at the blue spot, it went away and functioned normally. So, I taped that small neo to the tv and it has worked great ever since. (3 years) I love magnets!!!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Freezer on December 23, 2008, 10:01:04 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 23, 2008, 09:49:48 PM
@ Freezer:

Thanks! Geeze, I thought I was the first....darn. (ha ha) I tried my hand first as I have read that this work...but...nothing. Then I got my very strong neo (it was out of one of those shake flashlights) and it "pulled" the light down the tube as I went. When I removed it, it went out so, for the photos, I just left it sitting there.

Well, I did one 48", and then two, and I was going to go for three but....after what you said....now I don't know. (I would have to buy two more as they only come in a 2-pack)

My Fuji came with an industrial AA bat. But, it has to be weak by now with all of my testing. (maybe not)

I may go ahead and try for 3 in a few days. I have plenty of magnets and maybe it will take a few of them to get it to light. I am not really sure why the magnets do this. I have an idea but, if I am right, leaving them on there (taped to the tube even) does not bother me.

It reminds me of when I got my cheap TV from Walmart. It always had a blue spot near the upper right side of the picture. One day, I was messing around with a small neo (God only knows why) and I found that when I held it behind the picture tube (screen) at the blue spot, it went away and functioned normally. So, I taped that small neo to the tv and it has worked great ever since. (3 years) I love magnets!!!

Bill

My fuji's came with panasonic industrials but they didn't light the tube as well as the duracell, and the energizer industrial seems better than the duracell. I think you should still try and light more, the two that I bought had different transistors and transformers but were wired the same, so you never know. Weird story about your tv, usually a magnet will damage a screen and cause discoloration. I agree, that magnets are magical. :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 23, 2008, 10:24:10 PM

@ Freezer:

Yes, I have learned there are differences in AA batteries. I bought a solar light with 13 ultrabright leds and it came with el-cheapo rechargeable AA's (4) I replaced them with some very good high mAhour batts and the light was much, much brighter. do you think we can go to C size and up the power a bit to light more? The volts would be the same but do you think the transistor could handle it? I really want to stay with the AA's until I hit the wall then I will be looking for more. I guess we could go with 2 AA's in parallel right? Keep the volts the same but up the mA's?

I guess you can tell I won't be happy until I smoke this thing. Ha ha.

Merry Christmas

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 23, 2008, 10:30:53 PM

Quote from: Cap-Z-ro on December 23, 2008, 09:43:26 PM
Also Bill...try a magnet on the opposite side of the tube from the first magnet...a couple on the first tube wouldn't hurt either, using various polarity arrangements.

I am intrigued that you have a magnet having an amplification effect on electricity.

There's a lesson in here somewhere.

Unfortunately now you're stuck buying more tubes to find out where the limit of the system lies. :)

Regards...

@ Cap:

I am not sure if it is an amplification effect or not. I think that maybe, just maybe, it alters the field inside the tube (or aligns it) allowing the excitement of the gas molecules inside it in some way. Why? I don't know. In other words, if I just stuck the magnet on the right end of the first tube, nothing happened. I had to go down to the left where the light was and "drag" it to the other end. Maybe it is kind of like putting a bowling ball on your bed and pushing down in fornt of it and the ball rolls down toward where you pushed down? And if you kept pushing down and moving forward, the bowling ball would follow the furrow you were making? Better said this way: I don't know.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on December 23, 2008, 10:44:45 PM

@ freezer
Hi there, I have come out of christmas hibernation/vacation to give a part answer about the LED topic :D

No worries, I went and did a quick checkup in the time alowed me and found this Chromaticity diagram which is a bit difficult to understand but once you can, it explains it.
D65 is the colour temperature kelvin, as you know ones eyes are the sensitive to the brighter ranges of the 3 main spectrim colours.
Light Red + Light green (as you pointed out so very kindly to me) + light blue, the middle area is white or D65, which basically means a combination ratio to produce white light.

As you found using your LED torch, some things just looko different, using a different frequency colour to illuminate them, I agree totally, the bumble bee can see ultra violet or violet, we carnt, if we could, flowers for example would look way out of normal colour range that we are used to see.

The same with the "white" LED, at least this is how it effects me, things illuminated by using one or a combination of them if they are the bright white LEDs, the light just seems to lack something, I think the white ultra bright LED has a great more of the blue component in it, thus forcing a whiter brighter light.

If you look at the diagram, the more one delves towards the blue end of the spectrim, the darker it becomes in relation to the other 2 primary colours.

Im going to do a bit more looking up on the net about this over the weekend.

Have a good weekend and christmas freezer
Im looking forward to getting together with my family
hooroo all
jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Freezer on December 23, 2008, 11:53:33 PM

Quote from: electricme on December 23, 2008, 10:44:45 PM
@ freezer
Hi there, I have come out of christmas hibernation/vacation to give a part answer about the LED topic :D

No worries, I went and did a quick checkup in the time alowed me and found this Chromaticity diagram which is a bit difficult to understand but once you can, it explains it.
D65 is the colour temperature kelvin, as you know ones eyes are the sensitive to the brighter ranges of the 3 main spectrim colours.
Light Red + Light green (as you pointed out so very kindly to me) + light blue, the middle area is white or D65, which basically means a combination ratio to produce white light.

As you found using your LED torch, some things just looko different, using a different frequency colour to illuminate them, I agree totally, the bumble bee can see ultra violet or violet, we carnt, if we could, flowers for example would look way out of normal colour range that we are used to see.

The same with the "white" LED, at least this is how it effects me, things illuminated by using one or a combination of them if they are the bright white LEDs, the light just seems to lack something, I think the white ultra bright LED has a great more of the blue component in it, thus forcing a whiter brighter light.

If you look at the diagram, the more one delves towards the blue end of the spectrim, the darker it becomes in relation to the other 2 primary colours.

Im going to do a bit more looking up on the net about this over the weekend.

Have a good weekend and christmas freezer
Im looking forward to getting together with my family
hooroo all
jim

I think I understand what you are saying. I read that during the day or in bright conditions, the human eye is more sensitive to the warmer end like the reds, oranges using mostly the cones. During the night or low light conditions, our eyes are more sensitive to the cool end like greens and blues, with the rods being predominant. So I guess it's subjective, and also dependent on the surrounding conditions.

Have a great Christmas. I still got to pick up some more presents, and am not looking forward to weaving through the crazy mobs. Today it took 20 minutes to find a parking space. :/ When I was leaving an old couple was patiently waiting to take my spot, and in swoops this jerk and takes the spot from them..I should went back and said something, but I didn't feel like getting into a confrontation over a parking space. :P

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 24, 2008, 01:10:11 AM

Quote from: Cap-Z-ro on December 23, 2008, 09:43:26 PM
Also Bill...try a magnet on the opposite side of the tube from the first magnet...a couple on the first tube wouldn't hurt either, using various polarity arrangements.

I am intrigued that you have a magnet having an amplification effect on electricity.

There's a lesson in here somewhere.

Unfortunately now you're stuck buying more tubes to find out where the limit of the system lies. :)

Regards...

bill awsome.... work

;D

and cap !!!

lol ;)

miles in days light years in weeks..... :)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 24, 2008, 01:50:28 AM

here is an easy circuit to replace your aa or aaa. use a step down transformer to get the ac from the wall down to about 5v. it might even run from usb off your pc.
any low dropout voltage regulator should do. i used a upc2933.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 24, 2008, 02:27:25 AM

@ Pirate88179 and Freezer

Magnet causes bright spot on tube because it pulls the stream of ions from the center of tube causing more of them to hit the phosphorus coating on the tube (more ions = more light). Transformer sound may not be getting quieter, it may be getting higher in frequency (going above audible). Higher frequency is good if that is what is happening, because more energy will go through a given capacitance value at higher frequencies. Thus it is easier to light tube with only one wire at higher frequencies. To see if C or D cell will harm circuit, check the current draw when using AA battery and D battery. If current for D battery is not significantly higher than AA battery then D batteries are safe to use and will last longer.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on December 24, 2008, 03:51:30 AM

@everyone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZi3V5HOMc8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZi3V5HOMc8)

Here is a video I did showing my Joule Thief. I got around to making one and it works! ;D
That was such a cool feeling hooking it up to a battery right after soldering it all together and getting this crazy bright light from a tiny LED!
I know I am WAY behind everyone else on this, but I thought I would share my beginner's success.

;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 24, 2008, 10:08:49 AM

@ ist:

Thanks.

@ Wilby:

Nice circuit. Hopefully, I will give that a try. Then it would be easy to make our own led bulbs, or run these tubes from the wall power.

@ Timmy:

Nice job on the joule thief and the video. I saw where desertphile attacked you in the comments section. From his comment, he obviously has no idea how/why this works so, just ignore him. When I power my circuit from my earth battery, it will indeed be free energy or at least free light. I will make (hopefully) a video of that and post it.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 24, 2008, 10:15:56 AM

Quote from: xee2 on December 24, 2008, 02:27:25 AM
@ Pirate88179 and Freezer

Magnet causes bright spot on tube because it pulls the stream of ions from the center of tube causing more of them to hit the phosphorus coating on the tube (more ions = more light). Transformer sound may not be getting quieter, it may be getting higher in frequency (going above audible). Higher frequency is good if that is what is happening, because more energy will go through a given capacitance value at higher frequencies. Thus it is easier to light tube with only one wire at higher frequencies. To see if C or D cell will harm circuit, check the current draw when using AA battery and D battery. If current for D battery is not significantly higher than AA battery then D batteries are safe to use and will last longer.

Excellent point on the higher frequency that I am unable to hear. I am leaning toward that as what is taking place. (now that you pointed it out) I did not notice a bright spot near my magnet on the lit tube. On the second tube, it altered something inside the tube to allow me to "drag" the light the full length of the tube to have it light also. I like your explanation though, it makes sense, the more ions that strike the coating on the tube, the more light.

I still wonder why my hand would not do the same thing? Maybe I was grounded too much? Not enough? Very dry inside my place and a lot of static builds up when you walk on the carpet which may affect it one way or the other.

Question: How do I check the current draw of this circuit without frying the fuse in my meter? Is it safe to check coming out of the battery?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 24, 2008, 11:02:18 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 24, 2008, 10:08:49 AM

@ Wilby:

Nice circuit. Hopefully, I will give that a try. Then it would be easy to make our own led bulbs, or run these tubes from the wall power.

you can run multiple led's from ac with a resistor and a cap. you can also use it to regulate mains voltage pretty well for a 5v supply with a zener. i take apart my old incandescent bulbs that are burnt and put 2-4 white led's in them along with the cap and resistor. it all fits pretty nice and works well.
see this page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Bill_Bowden/page10.htm#lineled.gif) for more details.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 24, 2008, 11:15:56 AM

Quote from: Freezer on December 23, 2008, 11:53:33 PM
Have a great Christmas. I still got to pick up some more presents, and am not looking forward to weaving through the crazy mobs. Today it took 20 minutes to find a parking space. :/ When I was leaving an old couple was patiently waiting to take my spot, and in swoops this jerk and takes the spot from them..I should went back and said something, but I didn't feel like getting into a confrontation over a parking space. :P

the mobs... seriously, take one of your circuits with you in some discreet hand held package like a tic-tac box. it makes a great 'cattle prod'. also, the 330volt caps make nice tazer projectiles when they are fully charged. they fly nicely with a tube of paper attached to end opposite the leads. would be perfect for those swoopers. ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 24, 2008, 11:36:22 AM

well!!

there better uses..... hummm :(

anyhow...

i made you guys a vid of my flashlight modded

ist!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ml5-tviRPCQ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 24, 2008, 11:44:39 AM

@ Pirate88179

Good question about meter. They usually say on front what max current they can take. Always start with meter on highest scale and work down. I was not suggesting putting the meter across the battery. I meant to put the meter in series with the battery while the battery is powering the circuit. My AAA is running at about 360 ma. So you should use a meter able to read at least one amp to be safe, but I suspect that the current will not be much higher with a D cell than with AAA battery. Try measuring your AA battery first.

EDIT: I could not find a D cell, but I did find an old flashlight with C cells. The C cell was running at about 440 ma driving the Fuji board.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 24, 2008, 12:43:33 PM

@ ist:

Nice video. I also have that same flashlight. I am going to have to try that.

@ xee2:

Thanks for the info on the battery mA's. Not too much higher so I guess it shouldn't (hopefully) fry anything. Also thanks for the info on testing with my meter. I have learned to be cautious ever since I blew a few of the amp side fuses. Those are very hard to find around here.

Before I buy more 48" tubes, I may try what Freezer did and just add my 18" to the 2 long tubes. I am almost sure I will have to use a magnet on both the 18" tube and the second 48" tube....even then, it may not light up. If I can get my work done today, I may give it a go later on.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on December 24, 2008, 03:59:23 PM

" the 330volt caps make nice tazer projectiles when they are fully charged. they fly nicely with a tube of paper attached to end opposite the leads. would be perfect for those swoopers. Grin "

I know somebody who can do that completely silently using man made gas. ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 24, 2008, 04:38:12 PM

@ All:

Well, I gave it a try with the 2 48" tubes and the 18" tube connected together......nothing. Then, just to check if I burned the poor little unit up, I tried the small 4 watt tube.....nothing! Upon closer inspection under a magnifying glass, it seems my one connection became unsoldered. So, I just followed the path (pattern) on the pc board and then soldered it to the next connection up, which is a pin on the transformer. All is well again...it works. So now, later I hope to repeat my try with the three tubes. My main problem is that I ran out of jumper wires. I need to get some alligator clips and make some more. (I used several of them for my color organ running the lights on my tree) I just don't have any good way of connecting the tubes together at this point. I expanded some connector tubes to slip over the pins on the florescent tubes and I thought it would work but, a continuity check revealed that is does not. I will figure out something.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on December 24, 2008, 05:19:16 PM

A few turns of wire around the jaw of a clothes pin makes a good temporary alligator clip, and provides a solid connection.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 24, 2008, 05:37:08 PM

@ Cap:

Great idea. Unfortunately, I don't have any clothes pins. I tried small paper clips but they kept popping off. I tried making a small loop of copper wire but it wiggled around too much, not a solid connection. I was thinking of soldering them together but, I might damage what is inside and, I have no place to store 8 feet of light tubes. Oh well, we all run into these little obstacles. I will come up with something or go out and buy some more clips after the stores open again.
Thanks for the idea though.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on December 24, 2008, 07:40:40 PM

If you don't have any clothes pins, then I wouldn't advise hanging the clothes out on the line...especially if its real windy.

Alternatively I would recommend using a dryer and some smog scented fabric sheets...and your clothes will smell like they dried outdoors.

Hope this helps.

Regerds...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 24, 2008, 10:02:29 PM

@ Pirate88179

If you put the tubes next to each other in a U maybe you could get by with shorter jumper wires.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Light on December 24, 2008, 10:27:20 PM

Made some tests on base of joule thief and coil oscillator to get up 20V from 1.5V.
To get a real results needa find a way to increase a current.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 24, 2008, 10:47:50 PM

@ Light:

Nice work there. Great pics. I agree, More power is always good.

@ xee2:

That's a good idea but I have plenty of wire, the length is not my problem, I just don't have enough alligator clips. I am thinking about using some aluminum foil rolled up to make small connectors.

@ Cap:

I have found that if you hook your car's exhaust to the dryer vent you can get that "outdoor" smell into your clothes easily. I don't do it very often, only for special occasions.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 25, 2008, 01:53:44 AM

Well, I gave it a go with the three tubes, 2, 48" and 1, 18". I made some connectors out of solid copper wire that seemed to work ok. This attempt failed. I got the 2 48's lit but could only get the far end of the 18 to light up, and this would only happen when my hand was on the tube. I used two strong neos to "pull" the light but, I could not get it to light the last tube more than about 25% of the length.

I have not given up, but will have to think of something else to try. As Freezer said, maybe we hit the limit of these circuits as they are now. If this turns out to be true I still think it is impressive to light these long tubes with a single AA. The good news is that even after about 10 minutes of run time while I was attempting different configurations, the transistor and the transformer did not even get warm. Oh well, some more things to think about.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 25, 2008, 02:09:37 AM

WOW, what a great thread!

It has taken me all day to read this and probably it's a good thing it is christmas eve, or more posts would have been made. I love this thread.

I am seeing 2 threads inside this one and I need some clarification, please.

I am confused (?) about where the bifilar torroid is in all these camera circuits. Is this just an incorporated element when in the flash ckt? I think I saw one in a pic somewhere, but I am missing them in most of the circuits.

@Bill,
I am so impressed that you are lighting 2 40w fluorescent tubes with one camera circuit. egads!!!

In fact Freezer and xee and nieves, and all the rest oh and IST ... cool!

I have one kodak one ready to go. I also have a 15 w growlight I got for experiments. This will be the experiment . tomorrow. So, please help with the choice of circuit.

I get that there are lots of ways to put this together.

I guess I'll need to reread the thread again tomorrow. I expect to try xee's latest explanation first. Is there a recommendation? ooo this is gonna be fun.

--------

About 4 years ago, I made what I called LED candles. I made them to learn how to make a plain circuit with a resistor etc. They had a little switch and a 47R resistor. I used amber because amber looked more like a candle and somehow it was OK that the light was so small. I found that a kind of paper called --- I forget, rolled into a tube made the light glow and look like a candle. I will remember the paper later.- a kind of fake parchment. (I love the clear marbles.- what about the 'strawberry' design being used on so many christmas lights?)

These amber candles would be bright from 2 AAA batteries for 2 weeks and not in need of recharging for another week, so they were good for 3 weeks.

I made a few using whites. Those candles, using the same set up would burn for 6 to 8 weeks. It isn't that they aren't using the batteries, it is just that they are so bright that even when almost gone, they are still light. - and yes, jim, the light is not as pleasant.

Also on the LED side of things, I have had a string of 35 LED's draped over my window for 2 full years now. They still work great. I never have unplugged them. They make the kitchen and living room bright enough to see. 2.4 watts... And these are a great source of ambient light. If I can get a few grow lights lit using a couple of c batteries and a joule thief for the winter, I will be really pleased.

As far as where next goes... My thought is to see how long it can go on how little battery. Basically, what are the limits.

I am wondering also about the fact that at the same time the frequency is higher and goes quiet, and the circuit is powering more length of light. So, perhaps it is using for power what was being made as heat. Am I mistaken that the transistor was cool with the extra light and no sound??

OK for now (a bit scattered), I will check in tomorrow.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 25, 2008, 03:19:47 AM

@ jeanna

The Kodak transformer does not work as good as the Fuji. I think the same instructions for cutting anode diode lead and connecting one end of tube to lead at cathode end of diode will work (with other end of tube to negative of battery). But you will have to find where the flash switch is and short it out and this will be different on the Kodak.You may need to put a capacitor (value not critical, such as 0.01 uF) in series with the tube to prevent shorting the base bias when using the Kodak.
Good luck.

The Joule thief does not need to be bifilar to work. The camera transformers are equivalent to a Joule thief transformer with an extra winding.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: spinner on December 25, 2008, 05:01:44 AM

Quote from: xee2 on December 25, 2008, 03:19:47 AM
@ jeanna

The Kodak transformer does not work as good as the Fuji. I think the same instructions for cutting anode diode lead and connecting one end of tube to lead at cathode end of diode will work (with other end of tube to negative of battery). But you will have to find where the flash switch is and short it out and this will be different on the Kodak.You may need to put a capacitor (value not critical, such as 0.01 uF) in series with the tube to prevent shorting the base bias when using the Kodak.
Good luck.

The Joule thief does not need to be bifilar to work. The camera transformers are equivalent to a Joule thief transformer with an extra winding.

It's good to see that you people are getting the results, a success. Lighting bulbs with just a volt or two is an achievement.,,,
As long as you are aware that power (U/I) conversion is not really a "FE"....

Cheers!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 25, 2008, 10:27:03 AM

Greetings!!!

I made a composition and added most of the circuits on one paint graphic. The second one is from a kodak circuit.

Happy holidays!!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 25, 2008, 11:37:29 AM

Quote from: spinner on December 25, 2008, 05:01:44 AM
It's good to see that you people are getting the results, a success. Lighting bulbs with just a volt or two is an achievement.,,,
As long as you are aware that power (U/I) conversion is not really a "FE"....

Cheers!

@ Spinner:

Yes, I believe we are aware that nothing "unconventional" is taking place here.....except......what amazes me is that this process has been around a long while and is supposedly "well known", yet, look at ist's flashlight. If you were in the flashlight business, would you not want to make a light that will run off of a "dead" battery and be just as bright, if not brighter, and last many times longer on only 1 AA battery and not the 3 they used? In lighting these long tubes, I am getting much more light (probably for a longer time although not tested yet) than my camping light which lights a small 6" tube using 8 D sized batteries. That light only lasts about an hour on high, which is not all that bright.

Now, as far as FE is concerned.....when/if this operates off of my earth battery (I am going to try both the toroid style and the Fuji circuit) then I believe I have an FE lighting device that will work all the time, day or night.

So, I believe that while these circuits themselves are not ou by any means, they are possibly an essential tool due to their efficiency and maybe can be coupled to other devices like the earth battery, Bedini SSG's, solar cells, small wind power devices....etc. Anyway, these are why I am playing with these. Merry Christmas.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 25, 2008, 11:54:20 AM

Quote from: jeanna on December 25, 2008, 02:09:37 AM
WOW, what a great thread!

It has taken me all day to read this and probably it's a good thing it is christmas eve, or more posts would have been made. I love this thread.

I am seeing 2 threads inside this one and I need some clarification, please.

I am confused (?) about where the bifilar torroid is in all these camera circuits. Is this just an incorporated element when in the flash ckt? I think I saw one in a pic somewhere, but I am missing them in most of the circuits.

@Bill,
I am so impressed that you are lighting 2 40w fluorescent tubes with one camera circuit. egads!!!

In fact Freezer and xee and nieves, and all the rest oh and IST ... cool!

I have one kodak one ready to go. I also have a 15 w growlight I got for experiments. This will be the experiment . tomorrow. So, please help with the choice of circuit.

I get that there are lots of ways to put this together.

I guess I'll need to reread the thread again tomorrow. I expect to try xee's latest explanation first. Is there a recommendation? ooo this is gonna be fun.

--------

About 4 years ago, I made what I called LED candles. I made them to learn how to make a plain circuit with a resistor etc. They had a little switch and a 47R resistor. I used amber because amber looked more like a candle and somehow it was OK that the light was so small. I found that a kind of paper called --- I forget, rolled into a tube made the light glow and look like a candle. I will remember the paper later.- a kind of fake parchment. (I love the clear marbles.- what about the 'strawberry' design being used on so many christmas lights?)

These amber candles would be bright from 2 AAA batteries for 2 weeks and not in need of recharging for another week, so they were good for 3 weeks.

I made a few using whites. Those candles, using the same set up would burn for 6 to 8 weeks. It isn't that they aren't using the batteries, it is just that they are so bright that even when almost gone, they are still light. - and yes, jim, the light is not as pleasant.

Also on the LED side of things, I have had a string of 35 LED's draped over my window for 2 full years now. They still work great. I never have unplugged them. They make the kitchen and living room bright enough to see. 2.4 watts... And these are a great source of ambient light. If I can get a few grow lights lit using a couple of c batteries and a joule thief for the winter, I will be really pleased.

As far as where next goes... My thought is to see how long it can go on how little battery. Basically, what are the limits.

I am wondering also about the fact that at the same time the frequency is higher and goes quiet, and the circuit is powering more length of light. So, perhaps it is using for power what was being made as heat. Am I mistaken that the transistor was cool with the extra light and no sound??

OK for now (a bit scattered), I will check in tomorrow.

jeanna

@ Jeanna:

Merry Christmas!!

Yes, I too am really enjoying this topic. I have learned a lot from the folks here. I would recommend going with the Fuji board as I believe we all determined that the transformer is much bigger. Plus, if you need help, I can tell you how to convert it. (Now that I have learned) They are only like $3.00 brand new, and you can save the roll of film out of it if you want. (35 mm) plus all of the other parts that you will remove from the board are still good for some other project. I think it is a very economical project.

I had a little trouble getting a good connection to the board on one of my leads but, that is my fault. I wanted to be careful not to run the solder across another path on the board (they run very close together) and I didn't want to overheat it. Once I used both my reading glasses and the magnifying glass on my helping hands, I had no problems. (I can't see as good as I used to)

Since you have played with LEDs before, I was thinking that this circuit (the fuji) could be used to run a sh*tload of leds if we add the right resistors or put enough LEDs in the circuit to get the load right. Hey, speaking of that, I have 2 strings of LED Christmas lights I bought this year for my tree. When I take my tree down, I may try to see if I can light 100 LEDs from this board, if it does, then maybe try for 200.

Jeanna, whatever you do, don't listen to me as the other guys on here actually know what they are talking about. (Smile)
You might have to try to hook either the toroid type of the Fuji type to one of your NS coils. Good to see you here.

@ Jesus:

Thanks for posting those circuits. I am sure that will be helpful for others that are joining us here. Merry Christmas.

@ xee2:

Thanks for the bifilar/transformer explanation. I figured it might be something like that but, now I know. Merry Christmas.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 25, 2008, 12:21:09 PM

lets ask a question ...

why do leds light ;D cuz there diodes... lol

why do the tubes light ... cuz they love re or rf still up in the air on that one :D

this can be used both ways as we have seen .....

whats the diff 1 has a diode the other dont .... hummm

ist! ;)

charge a cap with out a diode what is the result?

the big thing is the cores are feroite as it can release super fast opposed to steel or iron .......

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 25, 2008, 01:59:45 PM

@ All:

I have a question. I just attempted to hook my DMM up to the leads on the fuji circuit to see what the output might be. I believe I read it is supposed to be about 300 volts. I set the meter on the ac setting (600 volts) and all I got was first, 700 flashed, then 800 something, then "1.0.00.00." Which appears to me to be some error message. I tried the same thing on 600 on the dc side and got the same result. Can the output not be tested on a DMM? My meter still works so thankfully, I did not seem to fry anything. The 600 setting is as high as this meter will go. I have some other meters, 2 analog and one really good Omega but, I don't want to risk them unless/until I know I am testing this correctly.

Any information would be greatly appreciated.

What I was going to do was to see what was coming off the leads and then compare that to what is available where the neon/led was. (other end of the board where I got a good zap by holding it there) If there is decent power there I was thinking about running a single wire from that and trying the aluminum foil trick, (band wrapped around the third tube) to see if I can get three to light.

Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Freezer on December 25, 2008, 02:10:31 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 25, 2008, 01:59:45 PM
@ All:

I have a question. I just attempted to hook my DMM up to the leads on the fuji circuit to see what the output might be. I believe I read it is supposed to be about 300 volts. I set the meter on the ac setting (600 volts) and all I got was first, 700 flashed, then 800 something, then "1.0.00.00." Which appears to me to be some error message. I tried the same thing on 600 on the dc side and got the same result. Can the output not be tested on a DMM? My meter still works so thankfully, I did not seem to fry anything. The 600 setting is as high as this meter will go. I have some other meters, 2 analog and one really good Omega but, I don't want to risk them unless/until I know I am testing this correctly.

Any information would be greatly appreciated.

What I was going to do was to see what was coming off the leads and then compare that to what is available where the neon/led was. (other end of the board where I got a good zap by holding it there) If there is decent power there I was thinking about running a single wire from that and trying the aluminum foil trick, (band wrapped around the third tube) to see if I can get three to light.

Thanks.

Bill

Try a spark gap and your meter will go crazy lol. Mine was flipping out at 1888, to -1. The digital multimeters don't seem to read pulsed energy so well. I don't think its accurate at all. My analogue doesn't seem to read well either, giving mixed results depending on what setting. The foil works well, just one connected to the lead, and one connected to the foil wrapped around the end of the tube, or even ground works.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 25, 2008, 02:41:25 PM

@ Freezer:

Thank you. I thought it was me. (possibly because it usually is) I just didn't want to keep trying a blow up what has been a pretty decent meter. Since we are not using the trigger coil, is the output still high frequency due to the transistor and the crystal? Something like 50kHz? It just dawned on me that I know static can illuminate these tubes and that is very high voltage, almost non-existent power. So, maybe the key to lighting more tubes at brighter levels would be high frequency and very high voltage. I just read in a catalog that comes to me that I can buy a stun gun that outputs 1.2 million volts and does this from a single rechargeable battery. I'll bet that would light a few tubes up, ha ha. I am sure it is not meant for continuous service however. It just got me thinking that maybe we can up the voltage output here and not worry about the power end of it.

Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 25, 2008, 03:12:47 PM

@Bill,

The reason I got that 15 watt fluro tube was to see how it would light up from my wimhurst machine.

It was not impressive and it was tricky to hold the bulb and turn the wheel. But it did work and proved the concept.

It seems to me that the continuous nature of the high voltage spark is what would be creating this light in your tubes.

I may be repeating what freezer just said, but, the length of the spark will tell you the voltage.

If the spark comes off a small rod and is 1/3 inch it is about 30kv. (ref = ADMoore)

I guess your meter won't be reading that!.

Oh yeah, I was having fun sparking the flash last year and I ended up burning a small hole in my tablecloth and leaving about a 1/2 inch black mark on the table. So, maybe I was getting almost 40kv. (hmm maybe this is what I need for my HHO torch!!!!)

More mysteries continue. Lots to think about.

@xee2, so, I guess the little torroid is a perfectly balanced joule thief, like a filter transformer, whereas the flash is connected off center, so to speak and so it is really 2 transformers each making more volts from fewer. (or reverse)

@IST, I am not sure I am following you. could you please try again. I am way behind you on this and I think you were replying in a way to my question about how the 2 joule thief's relate to each other.?

Well, I guess I will glue the gasket back onto my car door today >:( and buy a fuji tomorrow.

Thanks all for your help. More Q's are sure to follow!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 25, 2008, 03:26:16 PM

Some Christmas Pictures for all:

Fuji board circuit running 200 leds on my Christmas Tree all from single AA battery!!!! In the bottom photo you can see my color organ (the plastic clear box on the lower right) and the fuji circuit. (bottom left) Color organ and everything else is unplugged. All I did was use a red and a blue jumper wire to go to the male plug ends of the two LED strings. (100 leds each)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 25, 2008, 03:27:45 PM

More 200 LED shots....

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 25, 2008, 03:36:18 PM

The top one is a little blurry as my shutter stays open without the flash...hard to keep from moving. The bottom photo is with the flash.

I am glad I tried this!!! These are really bright, hard to tell in the shots but, brighter than when hooked to my color organ and plugged into the wall with loud music playing. I think this could drive 300 easily.

Next, I am going to try to run my heat pump from this circuit. (Just kidding)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 25, 2008, 05:05:41 PM

@ Pirate88179

Easiest way to measure peak open circuit output voltage is to put a diode and cap in series in place of the tube. Let the cap charge up and measure its voltage with DVM. This will be peak DC voltage. Should be about 300 volts peak DC. Then double that voltage to get peak-to-peak AC voltage. Should be about 600 - 700 volts peak-to-peak AC. These are just guesses, actual voltages may be higher.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: maw2432 on December 25, 2008, 05:09:14 PM

@ Pirate

Wow 200 LEDs! Bill that is awesome.

I orded 1 of those CFL Driver boards from Electronic Goldmine for $3.50.

http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16565

It says it requires 5V. I did not have a good way to connect my AA's so I used a 9V battery. No problem lighting two 40Watt bulbs. Plus this little circuit card plugs right into a breadboard. No modifications are needed. I will compare to Fuji Flash as soon as I finish the roll of film and do the circuit mod.

Anyway here are some pics.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: maw2432 on December 25, 2008, 05:13:53 PM

one more photo

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 25, 2008, 05:24:50 PM

@ xee2:

Thanks. I have a bunch of caps and resistors lying about, maybe I'll give that a try. Wow, 700 peak to peak? That is pretty high.

@ maw2432:

Thank you. Yes, I saw that circuit in an electronics goldmine sales paper they sent me with my color organ kit. I would guess that the transformer included with that one is much larger than out Fiji board's. Nice pictures! I would bet you can light a whole lot more with that driver circuit. Thanks for posting your photos. If you get a chance, can you post a close up of the driver circuit? Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: maw2432 on December 25, 2008, 05:54:59 PM

@ Pirate

It is not very large.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 25, 2008, 07:17:50 PM

@ Bill:

Thanks for posting the close-up. So, I take it that the square black and white component is the transformer? That is a pretty good sized one if it is. I also noticed there is a cap on there as well. We removed our caps from the Fuji board per the instructions from Jose. There is no telling what you can light with that rig. 9 volts is a lot more than our 1.5 volts and with that transformer, heck, maybe you can run your house? (just kidding) I'll bet your unit would have fried my 200 leds on my tree. you are making me think a lot now.......hmmmm......

Merry Christmas to you. and, thanks again for responding so fast to my request for a close-up of the board.

Bill (The other Bill)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 25, 2008, 07:53:37 PM

@all

There has been a question about the number 1 shown by the meter.
When the meter reach the maximum voltage of any range it let you now that by showing a number one. My first circuit used to give out about 1200volts shown on the meter screen and then showed the number 1 indicating that the voltage was higher than the 1000v range.

It does not damage the meter.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 25, 2008, 08:19:56 PM

@ Jesus:

Thank you. I think mine showed about 800 before getting the 1's. My highest setting is 600 so I guess that is why it did that. Good to know I did not hurt my meter. I use it all the time.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 25, 2008, 08:28:39 PM

I had to post one more. This is so pretty all lit up on one AA battery!! Sorry for the blurry image. this was my camera's focus at work again.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 25, 2008, 09:03:49 PM

ok im impressed bill lol 8)

when is some one gonna try and CHARGE A BATTERY SO YOU ALL CAN HAVE OU :D

LOL

2 tests charge with hv rectified via a 1n4007 diode ....

and carge with out a diode

try a car battery ;)

i hear deep cycle just love rf / re .....

ist

to hook 2 jt's togather i would make 2 almost the same ;) 1 npn 1 pnp and i might try reversing the wind...

found a great vid lol http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=er4F4BIUAfY

is that an aa battery in there ..... must be 1 hell of a TUNED COIL ;)

to do that...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 25, 2008, 09:40:55 PM

Well Bill,

I think you should take at least one of those 100 led light strings and start it up with this flash pack and use it in your bathroom. (Of course, you should remember to read the voltage on the battery before you begin.) See how long they will last on one battery.

And, see if you need the cfl or if 100 led's is enough. I predict you can even read a magazine with it. I can't read with my 35 blue-covered ones. Maybe you will need white covers instead of multicolored.

I want to see if this is already practical. I think it is. [that is if I understand what you are using]

If one could use one flash pack and one battery and get light at points in a room, there will be no need for lights. Just where you are reading and need to read. Now, how long before the battery goes down.

My led candles use AAA NiMH rechargables and go for weeks, with this a daily or weekly solar recharge could be enough, I hope.

This is so wonderful.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 26, 2008, 12:40:59 AM

@ Jeanna:

Well, 100 of my led lights are colored, the other 100 are clear. Yes, I believe I could easily read with the 100 clear ones. But, when I tried just 100, they were very bright, maybe too bright. I figure that each string is made to run on 120 volts from the wall so, if we are putting out 300 volts, I needed to run the second 100 to keep the others from frying. This is why I think I can run another 100 for a total of 300. These could all be clear leds which would be very, very bright. The leds in the Christmas lights are the very small ones. What I would call a "regular" led is 5mm in dia. and the large superbrights I used in my earlier joule thief experiments were 10 mm. So, I am guessing that these small leds are maybe 2.5 mm? Would it not be cool to run 200 leds from the earth battery? I am going to get more Fuji circuits to play with as I am sure to blow this one out sooner or later.

I have one more question for the electronics guys here. You have all seen my Fuji board as modified per instructions. There is no cap, and I removed all of the other components as instructed. Today, while wiring to my led tree lights, I got zapped yet again....a pretty big jolt. Funny thing is, I had not (on purpose) put the AA bat. in yet while I was fooling with it. It had been sitting on the top of my fridge over night with no battery installed. What is left on my board that can store power like that? Is it that silver crystal can? Or the transformer? The only other thing on there is a resistor and I know they can't do that. Again, this zap was about as good as I got off the cap while removing it. I am baffled by this. I now handle this board very carefully, with, or without a battery installed. (yes, I can learn quick) My guess is the transformer but I have never heard of this effect before.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 26, 2008, 01:59:34 AM

@ Pirate88179

That silver thing is actually a capacitor (probably 0.02 uF). If you had gotten zapped with the fully charged large 100 uF cap (5000 times more energy) you would probably have a small hole in your finger. That is why I suggest removing it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 26, 2008, 02:01:04 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on December 25, 2008, 09:03:49 PM
ok im impressed bill lol 8)

when is some one gonna try and CHARGE A BATTERY SO YOU ALL CAN HAVE OU :D

LOL

2 tests charge with hv rectified via a 1n4007 diode ....

and carge with out a diode

try a car battery ;)

i hear deep cycle just love rf / re .....

ist

to hook 2 jt's togather i would make 2 almost the same ;) 1 npn 1 pnp and i might try reversing the wind...

found a great vid lol http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=er4F4BIUAfY

is that an aa battery in there ..... must be 1 hell of a TUNED COIL ;)

to do that...

Thanks. Nice video. Yes, that appears to be a single AA battery there. What was he doing or trying to do? The flash was impressive but the noise was even better. That was a lot of power seeking equilibrium in a very short time I think.

Interesting idea you have for linking 2 jt's together. What do you think will happen? Do you think they will be synchronized and achieve some sort of resonance? I guess there is only one way to find out.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 26, 2008, 02:07:48 AM

Quote from: xee2 on December 26, 2008, 01:59:34 AM
@ Pirate88179

That silver thing is actually a capacitor (probably 0.02 uF). If you had gotten zapped with the fully charged large 100 uF cap (5000 times more energy) you would probably have a small hole in your finger. That is why I suggest removing it.

@xee2:

A cap? wow, I didn't know that. I thought I read somewhere, maybe on Jose's site, that this was a crystal for tuning or something. If it is a cap, well, that explains it. This thing has zapped me every time I fool with it it seems. I try to be careful but.....zap! Also, I did get zapped with the large cap while discharging it for removal. It probably was not fully charged up (thank God) but it was still a good jolt. Maybe one day I will learn.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 26, 2008, 03:02:26 AM

Don't know if I posted this one before or not. I guess I am still excited by lighting 200 leds from a AA battery. If this is a repeat, I am sorry. I will make some more soon and hopefuly they will be in focus. (I will use a tri-pod)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 26, 2008, 03:56:50 AM

so this is neg potiencal... you are playing with if thease curcuits are useing npn transistors

and if it does it 1 way it will do it the other right...

so when we look to nature ... neg lightning strikes... and positive lightning strikes are quite another story..... :o

so both at once to me seams really powerful....

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: maw2432 on December 26, 2008, 07:14:38 AM

@ Bill

Where did you get your LED Christmas lights? I am sure they go on sale after Christmas..... maybe a good time to buy.
I want to try some with the little circuit card that I purchased. To answer your question about the little round component on the board,
it is marked 101K. It does look like a capacitor. The manufacture is TDK. Yes, the square component is the transformer. It is marked
Danger - High Voltage. I believe it outputs 1000V. With the board placed in the breadboard, I have not gotten zapped (yet). he he. It did work with 2 AA batteries but did not light the 40 watt bulb very bright.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 26, 2008, 12:38:40 PM

@ maw2432:

I got my LED lights at a local grocery store (Krogers) and they were on sale before Christmas....reg. $11.50 ea. and I got them for about $8.00 each. I originally got them just to take all of the leds out of because to get 100 leds from my local Radio Shack would cost about $200.00! Then I decided to use them on my tree and then, I wondered if the Fuji circuit could light them and...well....you know the rest.

If you are indeed pushing 1,000 volts I would be very careful what you try to light up. Each string of my lights is designed to run on 110 vac from the wall with no transformer. I did a quick test with one string just to see if they would light and...wow...they were very, very bright. I only did that for a second or two then turned off. These Fuji circuits are supposed to be putting out about 300 volts so I figured 2 x 110 =220 so maybe I would not burn them out. They are still very bright however. Remember these leds are the small ones like you see used as indicator lights on electronics stuff.

See what others say here but I am thinking that you can probably run 900 lights (9 strings of 100) and if you attempt to run less than that without adding a resistor, I think you will fry those leds. My lights have no transformer that I can see....just a wall plug. See what the electronics guys here say.

I would think you would be safe lighting the long florescent tubes as mine were not anywhere near full brightness. You could try two 48" tubes and I would bet they would be very bright indeed. I think it would be less likely to burn these out although with enough juice, I am sure its possible. I am going to have to get one of these boards from electronics goldmine. I can't remember if you said it or not but will your board run at all with 1 AA battery? Thanks and good luck.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: maw2432 on December 26, 2008, 01:40:40 PM

@ Pirate

Bill, it does not light-up a 48" tube with only one AA battery. I think the Fuji circuit may be better.

The desciption says: Small CCFL driver produces about 1050Vrms from 5VDC to start a CCFL lamp and 295Vrms for VL (discharging tube voltage) a IL of 5mA. Will drive up to 100mm x 3mm dia. CCFL tubes. Inverter is only 1.7â€L x .8â€W x .52â€H (excluding connection pins). Operates from 5 VDC@0.2A. Drive frequency is 30KHz.

There are 2 outputs. I think one for the start-up 1052V and the other for the 295V discharging voltage to keep a bulb lit. It seems to work the same from either output when testing on a 48" tube. It does light up two 48" tubes with no problem with 6V input. I need to get one of those battery holders that uses just 3 AA batteries like the one you have in your flashlight, so I can try it with 4.5V. Radio Shack did not have any. Two batteries (3V) hardly lights a 48" tube. As I posted earlier, it seems to work ok with a 9V battery and also with 4 AA's but I want to see if will work with just 3 of the 1.5V batteries.

I suggest you also order the EIC-801 Solderless Breadboard ($4.95) to plug into for easy testing if you do decide to order the CCFL board. That is a very good price on the breadboard from Goldmine.

Bill

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: maw2432 on December 26, 2008, 03:45:17 PM

@ Pirate

Bill, Krogers now has the LED lights for 50% off the 11.99 price. I just purchased three sets and will test.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 26, 2008, 04:24:27 PM

Excellent!! Thanks, I might pick up a 3rd set.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: casman1969 on December 26, 2008, 04:55:53 PM

Do you think (anyone) that by charging a cap with this style circuit and then using the discharge to power a Bedini/Adams motor you can get some different results???
Locked on PM's but this seems to offer a higher voltage to my motor (6.6' diameter) with low RPMs.
Just wondering out loud...
I know my motor responds better to higher voltages.

Thanks,

Carl

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: maw2432 on December 26, 2008, 05:00:55 PM

My first test of 100 LED lights with the CCFL board was good. But when I put in the second 100 LEDs the lights went much dimmer.
I was using 6V input to the CCFL board. It appears that the Fuji circuit with just 1.5V AA is much better.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 26, 2008, 05:13:54 PM

Quote from: maw2432 on December 26, 2008, 05:00:55 PM
My first test of 100 LED lights with the CCFL board was good. But when I put in the second 100 LEDs the lights went much dimmer.
I was using 6V input to the CCFL board. It appears that the Fuji circuit with just 1.5V AA is much better.

Bill

Man, I don't understand that. Which kind of lights did you get? My Kroger's had two types, I should maybe have mentioned that I got the "icicle" style. My neighbor bought the others that look like the old, regular Christmas tree lights and his were not very bright because the plastic housing covering the leds was too dark and thick in my opinion. I got one set of clear (very bright) and one set of assorted colors. It was a bit of a challenge to hang the icicle lights on my tree but they did the job. Your transformer is larger and you had more input power. I was afraid that you were going to burn out the single 100 strand. Maybe your frequency is too high/low for lighting leds efficiently on that board? I have no idea.

@ Carl:

I am still in the process of building a Bedini SSG and I want to try to use a joule thief circuit in there in some configuration but I have not decided just how. I want to get it running the regular way first, and then see what I can do with the jt circuit. I think there is something there.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 26, 2008, 05:53:37 PM

@ maw2432

Did you have the LED strings in series (voltage going out one and into the other)? I would think they would work best that way.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 26, 2008, 05:55:32 PM

Mine were in parallel now that I think about it, for whatever that is worth.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 26, 2008, 06:05:58 PM

@ Jeanna:

On this page are some close-up photos of my board. You can compare to what you have. Let me know.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.290

One difference is that since that was taken, I cut the lead to the diode on the end without the stripe as was suggested to me. That really helped my output.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 26, 2008, 06:09:21 PM

Thanks Bill,

That will save me hours!!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 26, 2008, 08:15:42 PM

I think the fuji I bought is closest to zee's, but I still think it is different. I have been to joseph pino's site and removed much of what should go, but I have a couple extra resistors and I have a black/grey thing that I believe is a diode as well as a glass diode.

The glass diode has a yellow stripe. Is that the (-) ?

So,
2 diodes,
3 resistors,
1 darlington transistor,
1silver thing someone said was a TDK cap,
1 large transformer,
1 coil,
battery holder still in place as copper braces.

I am not sure which resistors to remove. There is a black paint over the lines underneath so I cannot read where they attach. I can read one of them which goes from a switch to the silver cap.

What was that thin black plastic thing with 2 copper leads. It seemed to be in the right place on the camera to be a switch or a cap turn on somehow... Anyway, it is gone.

xee did you end up with a bulb glowing from your fuji ckt?

I think I am close. I better study the circuit some more to understand what it is supposed to be doing.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 26, 2008, 08:43:55 PM

@ Jeanna:

That thing with the copper contacts is a contact switch. You remove it. I only have 2 resistors, that funky metal cap and the transformer and trigger coil left on my board. Everything else is gone...well I left the diode because you hook a lead to the side with the gray stripe on it. (not sure if anode or cathode) I just cut the other side and bent the diode up from the board a bit.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 26, 2008, 09:18:30 PM

@ Jeanna:

You do not have to remove any components. Just cut one lead. But I recommend removing large cap.

Steps I took for Fuji board with LED (should work for neon version also):

1. REMOVED LARGE CAPACITOR. Short with screw driver first. This can be left on board but is large enough to cause serious damage and should be removed just to be safe.
2. Cut lead at anode end of diode and fastened one end of tube to lead at cathode end of diode (end with the line on it). Make sure there is a good size gap where you cut the lead.
3. Connected other end of tube to battery negative clip.
4. Shorted little lines on one side of hole to the lines on the other side of hole (on trace side of board where shown in my previous photo).

EDIT: The photos were all taken by Bill, I just marked them up.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 26, 2008, 09:56:08 PM

Well, I tried again to light a pretty good size CFL. As you can see, I only got one half of the spiral to light. (There are two tubes intertwined) It would not light at all hooking to the ground and the power side of the Edison base. I ended up using one lead around the base, and the other was attached to my very strong neo mag. which I stuck in the other end of the light. (where the tubes are) So, no direct connection with the second lead, only to the magnet. You can see it on the left in the picture I took with the lights on. (power to the fuji board was off on this one)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 26, 2008, 10:28:33 PM

@xee2,

Quote4. Shorted little lines on one side of hole to the lines on the other side of hole (on trace side of board where shown in my previous photo).

Thanks for the improved photo number 2. Now, It is only the above business I can't get a clear placement on.

What are these traces? Since my architecture looks different from yours, but more like yours than Bill's, I am confused. I took a couple of pics and when I can I will mod them and upload. if I cannot figure out which traces you are referring to.

Thanks for your help,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 26, 2008, 10:35:51 PM

@ Jeanna:

They are covered by a switch in Bill's photos. If you post photo I will mark it up. I do not have macro lens, so I can't post a photo. They are just little lines of trace on each side of hole.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 26, 2008, 10:41:19 PM

@ Pirate88179
Did you remove the cfl circuit? I did and my bulb works.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 26, 2008, 10:59:09 PM

@MK1:

No, it is in original condition. I tapped into the Edison base and then used the magnet and lead on the other end. I took one apart a few days ago but managed to rip out one of the 4 wires going to the tubes. That one was put together a little different than the others I took apart a while back. How did you hook up the 4 wires coming from the tubes? did you tie the two on the same side together?

I just attempted to make HHO with the Fuji circuit and a thin sliver of tungsten wire. No dice. It did not work with a small brush made from fine copper wire either. I did however manage to get another jolt from the board! I think that makes like 6 times now.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 26, 2008, 11:07:06 PM

OK xee2 I made some pics here they are. I hope you can see.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 26, 2008, 11:08:42 PM

ok 1 at a time it is...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 27, 2008, 12:01:36 AM

@ Pirate88179
There are 4 wire like the regular fluorescent tube, one on each side work i dose not mater witch one.Base on my knowledge of the working off the fluorescent tube which use a transformer to convert 120 to 1000 volts (for a 4*40 watt ballast). The same principal is applied to the Cfl the ballast is included and needed to ignite the gas at high voltage.I assumed some of it i may be a ass but it worked in this case. Also the cfl blub circuit is made to run from 120 volts ac so unless its supplied the internal circuit dose not work and even at 120 volt you could not use the ground since correct me if i am wrong, but when it connected it needs to be feed +120 and -120 at the same time to eliminate the magnetic effect on the wire. So i ass that you would need +120 and -120 to work. The best would be to mod the Cfl circuit to work from
different voltage since amp are almost not needed.

But you may have opened a new door with that magnet. I think magnets and coils are part of the future of electricity not as much the past
because it got robed. I think that if you can make electromagnets you should be able to do the opposite put a magnet in a coil as core and get electricity out of it, since the magnet in equilibrium we cant see its potential we need to make waves to see results .Well placed pulse may raise a storm.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 27, 2008, 01:25:04 AM

@ jeanna

This is a guess. Your board is different than mine so this may not be correct. Your photo does not have enough detail to see lines so I am not sure where they are. On my board the lines are next to positive battery clip. Is this a Fuji camera board? But it looks like they are near negative battery clip on your board. These lines are shorted out when the flash charge switch is closed on my board. If you can remember where the flash charge switch was on your board they should be under it. Sorry I can not be of more help. This board is so different than my board that it may not even have the little lines.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 27, 2008, 02:20:40 AM

@ jeanna

This is the Fuji camera that Bill and I modified. There seems to be many variations sold in the same package. But until your board they seem to all be functionally equivalent. I think this is Bill's photo also.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 27, 2008, 03:36:41 AM

Hi xee,

Thank you for your reply and efforts.

I drew a circle around the whole area that is where the switch was. This is a switch that had 2 long thin copper extensions on it going up to where the little camera switch was, if I remember.

Yes, this is a new fuji camera with a continuous flash. the expiration date on the box says 2009/09. Maybe they are older stock... or maybe newer.

Here is the pic.

thanks

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Michelinho on December 27, 2008, 04:37:35 AM

Hi all,

This thread is great. Thanks to Pirate for starting it and all the other making it a great read.

I showed the circuit to my son in law and he told me that it is very close to the electronic fly swatter circuit.
Mine is using 2 AA batteries and can fry any critter that gets slapped. It was also cheap at $5.

Take care,

Michel

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 27, 2008, 04:56:04 AM

@ jeanna

On my boards the black rectangular switch with a hole and two long prongs was the shutter switch, not the flash charge switch. It took me quite a while to figure out how to modify the circuit board I have. Without the ability to test the traces to see where they go I do not think I can be of much help to you. I would suggest buying another board. My experience is that what you get in the package is pure chance. If you buy another maybe it will be like the two boards I have and the board Bill has. The cameras in the package seem to all be rebuilt used units. What you get seems to depend on what was available to be rebuilt.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 27, 2008, 09:53:21 AM

Quote from: Michelinho on December 27, 2008, 04:37:35 AM

Hi all,

This thread is great. Thanks to Pirate for starting it and all the other making it a great read.

I showed the circuit to my son in law and he told me that it is very close to the electronic fly swatter circuit.
Mine is using 2 AA batteries and can fry any critter that gets slapped. It was also cheap at $5.

Take care,

Michel

i have seen thease ..... lol looks like ss wire as the swatter

those in canada home hardware sold thease units....

can we tie it all togather.... now?!?!?!?!

take your cam flash curcuit ... the out put .... put it to a coil 50 turns {lets call this a control }wound on another coper wire
{lets call this a collector } aka..... OTTOS TEST ;)

PASS ENGERY THROUGH THE WIRE ... ;D {collector} impose the kicks {from the control } in that engery flowing throught the wire
{the collector} ;)

what is the result?

ps throw some soft iron in it to keep it from flying all over the place perhaps ferroite ;) the jt operates similar to this ......

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 27, 2008, 11:03:59 AM

@ist

Jesus

Title: Power Supplies for LED Drivers
Post by: Trino Cularoid on December 27, 2008, 01:26:34 PM

Power Supplies for LED Drivers
http://scribd.com/doc/7381636 (http://scribd.com/doc/7381636)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Light on December 27, 2008, 03:09:00 PM

"what is the result?
- Yes, it might be interaction between fields leading to unbalanced force.
Did it once; thereâ€™s a movement but not very effective (say, not like in a coil gun).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: maw2432 on December 27, 2008, 03:12:28 PM

@ Pirate

Bill, thanks for the suggestion, parallel now. They all light but not as bright as when plugged into the wall.
Were your LEDs brighter when plugged into wall? I still think the Fuji circuit may be better.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 27, 2008, 04:00:27 PM

Quote from: xee2 on December 27, 2008, 04:56:04 AM
@ jeanna

On my boards the black rectangular switch with a hole and two long prongs was the shutter switch, not the flash charge switch.

Thanks. That helps.

QuoteIt took me quite a while to figure out how to modify the circuit board I have. Without the ability to test the traces to see where they go I do not think I can be of much help to you. I would suggest buying another board.

I will buy a double pack and maybe I hope they are different. Perhaps I can learn better how they design these things.

How do you "test the traces?" Do you use a dvm?

On the contrary you have been a lot of help.

There is a lot of black rubber-looking paint over much of the traces and I can't tell where things go. I had been thinking this was a kind of heat protection, but maybe it isn't. Perhaps I could scrape some off...

First I will buy 2 more and I will not remove anything but the xenon bulb and big cap. If these are recycled cameras and random in design, then it makes sense to leave all the resistors in place, etc. but just cut the other end off the black diode.

I will check back before I change anything.
Thanks again for this help.

@ jesus, I think you have written the info I need in your very clear circuits. I am still uncomfortable reading circuit drawings. I guess this is how I will learn it. I invite you and anybody else to help.

Thank you,

jeanna

P.S. wow maw... good going. really 9volts isn't too much for 200 bulbs when you think about it. congratulations!

since I can modify this post I will add this link for others that may need it. It helps me a lot.
http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/camera-flash.htm (http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/camera-flash.htm)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 27, 2008, 04:13:58 PM

@jeanna

Greetings!

In the country people use to put an egg to the ligt and see if it is male or female with what they see inside.
In the same way you can put the circuit against a light, at some distance, and you can in this way trace any circuit.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 27, 2008, 07:08:48 PM

Quote from: maw2432 on December 27, 2008, 03:12:28 PM
@ Pirate

Bill, thanks for the suggestion, parallel now. They all light but not as bright as when plugged into the wall.
Were your LEDs brighter when plugged into wall? I still think the Fuji circuit may be better.

Bill

an honest answer to your question is that, yes, they were actually brighter than plugged into the wall. I first tried the 100 led string and just touched the leads and....wow! It was superbright, so much so that I didn't want to burn them up, which I have done in the past. So, I hooked the 2nd 100 string in parallel and it lit up bright as well, but not so bright that I thought I was hurting them. So, thanks to you telling me these were on special, I bought another 100 leds and added them to my tree, replacing one string of tear drop lights. (incandescent) Now, when I run my color organ, I have 1 string of 100 leds for each frequency. (bass, mid-range, and high) It works a lot better.

So now, tonight if I get a chance, I will attempt to light all 300 from an AA battery and see what happens. I am sure they won't be as bright as just 1, or the 2, but I think they will be bright enough to say they are illuminated.

I also bought another Fuji camera. What concerns me, after speaking with Jeanna, is that this one also has the "continuous flash" which is good but, the labeling on the box was square like Jeanna's where it said this and not oval like my first one. I will try to open it up later to see what I got. I think xee2 is correct in that they have millions of these things floating around out there, and it is the luck of the draw to get one we recognize how to modify. Maybe, we can figure out eventually how to modify any style of them, I don't know. I am not sure I know enough yet to figure this out but, with everyone's help here (you all have been just great) I believe we can do it.

I will see what I can do later......no promises. Thanks to all.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 27, 2008, 07:59:57 PM

Well prior to cooking dinner I opened up my new Fuji and....it is different!! It has the same AAA battery that Jeanna's has. Plus, the transformer is at least half the size of my other board. (My first one had an AA bat.) I don't know if this is even the same as Jeanna's or is like the other one Freezer had? The diode is like very far from the transformer and the entire board is laid out differently. I can see most of the paths on the board and only some of them are covered in blue paint, not black, like Jeanna's. (I have no idea why they do this)

I will try to post pics of it later, I have to do my reports from today's activities out in the field, and I want to try the 300 led experiment. I really hope Fuji did not discontinue our "standard" board but they very well might have. This one is probably 5 cents cheaper to manufacture and if so, I don't blame them.

I mentioned to Jeanna that if this is discontinued then maybe, just maybe, a bunch of the good boards might show up in the surplus company's inventory. If so, then we could just buy the boards. She told me that either electronics goldmine or all electronics has three camera boards (surplus) for one dollar. We might have to look into that. Will post more later.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on December 27, 2008, 08:21:01 PM

Well, my first Joule Thief is working beautifully! It is the simple one from MakeMagazine. But, I'm always thrilled when I get anything to work! ;D

I need some expert help here. I might just be hooking the Joule Thief and my multimeter up incorrectly. I connected the positives on the meter and Earth Battery and did the same for the negatives and got 1.046vdc. I connected the positive(two combined wires from the coil) of the Joule Thief to the positive on my Earth Battery. Then I connect the positive of my multimeter to the negative of my Joule Thief. Then I connect the negative of the multimeter to the negative of the Earth Battery. I ended up with LESS voltage with the Joule Thief! So, I kept the same config except I flipped around the Joule Thief and I got the original voltage. Then I went back and just connected the meter and got my original voltage. What am I doing wrong? When I connect the Joule Thief to a AA battery, it works fine with the twisted wires from the coil going to positive and the short leg of the LED to negative. I don't get it. Also, no matter how I tested it, I always got 1.5vdc with the Joule Thief connected to the AA. I thought it was supposed to read a different voltage since the LED needs like 3vdc to light up. ???

So, now that I've got the simple JT working, what would be a good step for improvement from here? I've read this thread all day and I'm only half-way through.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 27, 2008, 08:54:41 PM

@ jeanna

I bought another camera and it also has a red LED (same as last one). I tried to take a photo of the little lines that should be shorted from one side of hole to the other, but it is not very good. I hope it is some help.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 27, 2008, 09:03:31 PM

Quote from: timmy1729 on December 27, 2008, 08:21:01 PM
Well, my first Joule Thief is working beautifully!.....

it works fine with the twisted wires from the coil going to positive and the short leg of the LED to negative. I don't get it. Also, no matter how I tested it, I always got 1.5vdc with the Joule Thief connected to the AA. I thought it was supposed to read a different voltage since the LED needs like 3vdc to light up. ???

So, now that I've got the simple JT working, what would be a good step for improvement from here? I've read this thread all day and I'm only half-way through.

Hi Timmy,

oops that was wrong, nevermind. ;)

I think the little torroid jt that you have made is right. You shouldn't be getting the step up that the flash camera ckt provides. At least not made that way.

I'd say, keep reading. It is interesting and informative and you will be ready to buy a camera and start when you are finished. My eyes went bleary reading it the whole day this week, but I have already trashed 2 camera boards!! think of that.. all in one week!!!

Have fun. This is great, but read it all.

That is my advice, anyway.

Oh and congratulations!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 27, 2008, 09:23:04 PM

Quote from: xee2 on December 27, 2008, 08:54:41 PM
@ jeanna

I bought another camera and it also has a red LED (same as last one). I tried to take a photo of the little lines that should be shorted from one side of hole to the other, but it is not very good. I hope it is some help.

Thanks, xee2, I just finally made a solder bridge between those 2 spots. I don't have a hole there so, maybe that will work.

I am just now, trying to decide what to solder the 2 leads to.

The neg battery end and the stripe end of that black diode? and then cut and pull away the rest of the diode.

Then get my fluro bulb and clip it to the leads?

It seems to me there was a switch on this camera and I should be able to use it, but in all the complications, I am not sure where it is. I see a copper thing with 2 fingers leading to 2 traces and that may be it. I would need to hold it down, but maybe I just shorted out this switch.

I made a drawing of the circuit today. I am not finished looking at the drawing, but I think it is helping.

But first, I want to get the light to shine.

Thanks for your help.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 27, 2008, 09:28:40 PM

Quote from: xee2 on December 27, 2008, 08:54:41 PM
@ jeanna

I bought another camera and it also has a red LED (same as last one). I tried to take a photo of the little lines that should be shorted from one side of hole to the other, but it is not very good. I hope it is some help.

@ Jeanna:

Is that photo of your new board? If it is, that appears to be more like mine. (first one) The main question I have is what size battery did it come with? I think the ones with the big transformer come with AAs not AAAs. (at least mine did) I can't make hide nor hare out of my second board yet. It is a total re-design. I will keep studying it though. I am not sure it is worth it as the trans is so small, but, maybe it will work about the same anyway....who knows.

Bill PS: If that is your new board, those traces are where you can put your switch. I can also tell you then where to attach your leads for the output.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 27, 2008, 09:39:43 PM

@ Jeanna:

The copper piece that has short fingers is what shorts out the little traces. It is the flash switch and is pushed against the little traces by the round plastic part on the front of camera that is lifted up to turn on the flash. I used clip leads to make all of my connections. If you have some they save soldering. I turn my boards on and off by connecting and disconnecting the battery.

EDIT: tube connects between lead at striped end of diode and negative battery clip.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 27, 2008, 09:54:30 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 27, 2008, 09:28:40 PM
@ Jeanna:

Is that photo of your new board?

I think xee's. I made photos last night. Today's new board is exactly the same as my first one. But it is in better shape. no pink tape, the black is there, but I can see through it when I "candle" it as jesus suggested, but the first one is still impenetrable. good for learning - this is.!

QuoteI think the ones with the big transformer come with AAs not AAAs. (at least mine did)

Or, they discovered that the battery outlasts the camera if it is AA. they can replace it if it is a AAA. My unused battery had 1.45v and the used one had 1.29v. alkaline AAA both.

-----

I see a reply by xee while I write this, so...

Quote
The copper piece that has short fingers is what shorts out the little traces. It is the flash switch and is pushed against the little traces by the round plastic part on the front of camera that is lifted up to turn on the flash.

From the fingers, one trace goes to a resistor and the other to that silver cap.

Now, I don't get what the 2 switches are for. they both turn on the flash??

I am getting confused, now.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 27, 2008, 10:03:33 PM

@ Jeanna:

One switch turns on the charge circuit for the flash and the other (one with long prongs) fires the flash when the shutter is pushed.

EDIT: tube connects between lead at striped end of diode and negative battery clip.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 27, 2008, 10:20:40 PM

@ All:

OK, here we go. I just illuminated 300 LEDs with the single AA battery Fuji circuit. The lights are, I believe, (subjective) just as bright as the 200. What do you think?????? The 3 strings of lights are connected in parallel. I can't really try series until I take the lights off the tree. (maybe in April...ha ha)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 27, 2008, 10:22:46 PM

The first pic here is of the rear of the tree and you can see my circuit on the lower left. (yellow AA battery)

I really can't believe this!!! PS You can see my color organ on the lower right. (The plastic box with the large knob) There are 3 female plugs coming out of that, as you can see, and it is not connected to this circuit at this time.

BIll

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 27, 2008, 10:31:43 PM

@ Pirate88179

Good experiment. They look bright to me.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 27, 2008, 10:36:08 PM

@ Xee2:

Thank you. They don't quite light up the room, but you can see my antique telephone (from Bell Labs) in the background on the right that my Dad made into a lamp. Hmm.... I wonder if it will do 400?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 27, 2008, 10:41:17 PM

@ Jenna the first switch is to charge the now removed big cap to about 150 volts then the second switch is to take that charge in to the second transformer to make it 2000 volts so that enough voltage is supplied to light the xeon bulb.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 27, 2008, 10:51:44 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on December 27, 2008, 10:41:17 PM
@ Jenna the first switch is to charge the now removed big cap to about 150 volts then the second switch is to take that charge in to the second transformer to make it 2000 volts so that enough voltage is supplied to light the xeon bulb.

Thanks, mk1,

I don't understand why this switch has been disabled. Isn't it - aren't they both needed in this thing?

So far nothing is lighting up.

I do feel some warmth on the transformer, however.

BTW I did the connections as xee said on the top of the page. wow this thread moves fast, I missed this whole page a minute ago!!!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 27, 2008, 11:22:14 PM

@ jeanna

:( It seems that you have same board as the new board Bill bought. Maybe you should wait until he figures it out.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 27, 2008, 11:29:11 PM

Yeah, It isn't hooked up right.
I just modified a 2bat holder to a 1bat holder. It works on a torroid jule thief right off this bat holder, but the leads I soldered on are not doing the job even with that jt.

I will try a new pic. If it is in focus, I'll post it.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 28, 2008, 12:08:14 AM

@ jeanna

I had the same feeling about the second coil , but it is not needed to light a fluorescent,the first transformer is giving about 400 volt low amp ,usually stored in the big cap up to about 150 volt lower a result of low amp use and time factor, but for fluorescent 400v low amp is enough.I made some experiment with 3.4 volt dead cell phone battery and the same circuit gave me 1800 volts and definitely brighter result but it stops after a 20 seconds . The battery is a us03367v and has a charger circuit included in the battery very interesting for self charging battery system experiment, the charging circuit is fried now but the battery still works fine.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 28, 2008, 12:25:35 AM

OK I think these pics are OK I rotated one so it is as it would be if you just turned it over, (I think)

If anyone can see what is wrong, please let me know.

Thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 28, 2008, 12:29:11 AM

@ Jeanna:

OK here are some pics of my new style board. For clarity's sake, I am calling this style the AAA Board, as opposed to my other one the AA style. (Because of the size of the battery that it comes with) This might help us keep it straight. There may be several versions of this board out there, but this is the only one I have seen up close. Hopefully, this will help others. Also, is a shot of the box the AAA board came in, it was similar to my other box but the continuous flash wording was in an oval on that one, here it is in a square.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 28, 2008, 12:30:08 AM

Box from the AAA Fuji board.

BIll

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 28, 2008, 12:47:29 AM

Here is a AAA board marked up to my best guess as to what Xee2 was saying. I would also cut the other end of the diode as we did on the AA board. I am not sure about this drawing. Try this at your own risk. I am pretty sure the switch goes to the pad and the contact from where the flat copper switch was as I have it marked. We should remove the large cap, and I will probably remove a few other things as well. Please be careful. I will not get to try this for a while.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 28, 2008, 12:55:47 AM

Quote from: jeanna on December 28, 2008, 12:25:35 AM
OK I think these pics are OK I rotated one so it is as it would be if you just turned it over, (I think)

If anyone can see what is wrong, please let me know.

Thanks,

jeanna

Jeanna:

I think it looks like the marked up drawing I posted except....you don't have a switch where marked. If you don't have a switch, you can solder a jumper and turn it on/off by removing the battery but, i would not recommend this way.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 28, 2008, 01:05:22 AM

I am deleting what I wrote because you answered it above. It seems we don't get the notice of the simultaneous post now.

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 28, 2008, 01:18:15 AM

in looking at pics you all posted, this is what i came up with. anyone who wants to give it a shot, please do. large capacitor should be removed.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 28, 2008, 01:40:38 AM

Here is another photo of the 300 LEDs powered by the Fuji circuit. This one I used the flash. I forgot to post earlier.

@ Wilby:

Thanks for the diagram. I believe your way is designed to not use the battery holder that is built to the board correct? I did on the other board and probably will with this one also. We are way different on where the switch goes. I don't know enough to say which way is correct but I guess that is what experiments are for. (And smoke tests)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 28, 2008, 01:46:13 AM

correct, not meant to use the original battery holder.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 28, 2008, 01:53:29 AM

@ jeanna

In order to have the flash switch in the same place on camera body, the flash switch would seem to have to go where marked. Is it possible that the switch is shorting this thing to the metal trace surrounding it?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 28, 2008, 02:23:20 AM

Thank you xee2,

That is the attachment to the (+) battery terminal.

Here is another pic with the switch circled. I think I ruined the picture of the 2 fingers on this one but if you look at this you can see on the other pic what it looks like.

The switch is in a different place from Bill's. I think the architecture of the board changed a lot when they moved to the AAA battery. It looked similar on the outside, but it is a very different switch.

HEY I got lucky.
I just opened the only camera that had a different look and it is one like Bills!! yeay! That is how I can say it changed so much. It is really different.

Back to the one I have 6 of...

Here is the pic showing the switch in place. It is part of the board on this style.

Thank you xee,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 28, 2008, 02:26:48 AM

Quote from: xee2 on December 28, 2008, 01:53:29 AM
@ jeanna

In order to have the flash switch in the same place on camera body, the flash switch would seem to have to go where marked. Is it possible that the switch is shorting this thing to the metal trace surrounding it?

That appears to be the positive battery holder end where it sticks through the board. I believe my board is exactly like Jeanna's, for whatever that's worth. Maybe I can fire it up on Sunday sometime. I striped almost all of the non-needed parts off, at least I hope they are not needed... ha ha.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 28, 2008, 02:30:28 AM

"HEY I got lucky.
I just opened the only camera that had a different look and it is one like Bills!! yeay! That is how I can say it changed so much. It is really different." (Quote from Jeanna)

Does it have an AA battery as opposed to a AAA bat? If so, I'll bet it is exactly like mine. This is good as it appears we may only be dealing with 2 styles here. (AA style and AAA style) That is good news Jeanna.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 28, 2008, 02:41:22 AM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on December 28, 2008, 02:23:20 AM

HEY I got lucky.

:) Great news. I hope you have enough information now to modify it. Good luck.

On the other boards, did you try shorting out the switch?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 28, 2008, 02:43:20 AM

@Bill, this one has a AA. The size of the battery makes the whole design different (as xee pointed out) in order to accomodate the switch staying in the same ergonomic place.

Yup. I think 2 basic styles. It seems I have 3 of each (yesterday's is trash). I bought a 2pack today and went to the counter and asked if I could 'have' 4 more, but I bought the 2 pack. One was like yours and 3 were like mine.

I decided to open the one that looked a bit different and it was like yours. Then I opened the 2 pack and they are both like yours!!!! yeay I really got lucky.

Anyway, I need to turn in. I will be at this again tomorrow.

Thanks everybody for all your help. (Wilby, I will need to really study your suggestion)

@xee2,

QuoteSmiley Great news. I hope you have enough information now to modify it. Goodluck.

On the other boards, did you try shorting out the switch?

I will see if I can figure out where I would go to short it out. pushing the switch in toward the board while clipping the fluro tube did not get it on nor did it light the led on the torroid jt , so, I think something is open that should not be.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 28, 2008, 02:54:38 AM

@ Jeanna:

Excellent news! So, now you have 3 AA boards......good! If you go back a few pages, maybe more, there are plenty of photos, explanations, etc. on the AA boards to hook up correctly. If you have any trouble, let me know. If I make any progress on the AAA board, I will post it right away. It would be good if you can find a slide switch like Jose used (and me too) as it makes it a lot easier (and safer) to experiment with. I found one in an old, cheap, cheesy flashlight. Mine is 3 position but I only used 2 of them, it still fit nicely.

I think I agree with xee2 about the copper surface switch on the AAA boards. I removed mine and I think I will either short it, or look for a switch I can install there, or on some short leads. If that does not work, I will try Wilby's approach. Maybe I should flip a coin?

I think I will contact Fuji and tell them not to make any more AAA boards and stick with the AA board design. I am sure they will listen. Ha ha.

Anyone here think I should try for 400 LEDs? It is tempting as they are only about $5.00 on an after Christmas sale. I can't fit any more on my tree but, they are good to have around any way. Since they are the icicle style, I was thinking that if I get the clear ones, they would make a good night lite spread out on a wall and held up with push pins.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 28, 2008, 03:27:12 AM

I found this on the net. The parts are labeled. Thought it might help.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 28, 2008, 03:47:36 AM

This is the schematic that goes with the previously posted pics above. I don't know if this is the same as the one posted way back on this topic by someone or not. This may help.

BIll

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 28, 2008, 08:17:01 AM

@pirate

With that circuit you can try this simple configuration.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 28, 2008, 08:26:05 AM

hey guys i got luckey too ;D i must say i enjoyed my self lol :D

yea well that is not the reason for my post ....

i been fiddleing with my toys ::) lol :D

so i hooked up a simple closed loop unit.... sure it works .... lol but hers the cool sh!t i put my unit under load and it speeds up ... i take the load away it slows down ;D

the load is a 12vdc deep cycle battery 8) its job is to charge it lol

this sys will never run out of engery.... it will always have enough of a reserve to recharge its self ;D i have a invertor in the mix 2 chargers and 3 batteries 8)

ist

this entire unit is public on ou but not showen how it is hooked up and i will not!! but letting you all know it is easly done ;)

its been running almost 24 hours 12 in closed loop operation

cheers !!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: maw2432 on December 28, 2008, 08:27:06 AM

@ Pirate

Bill, 300 LEDs is truly amazing. I say go for the record and get another set. For $5.00 you can always use the LEDs on other projects.
One question, what should we do with all of the leftover camera capacitors? Do you think they would be good for experimenting with the Young Effect?

BTW have you tried asking for free recycled cameras. They do not seem to mind giving you a few if you ask at the photo shops that I have stopped by.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on December 28, 2008, 09:03:59 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on December 28, 2008, 08:26:05 AM
hey guys i got luckey too ;D i must say i enjoyed my self lol :D

yea well that is not the reason for my post ....

i been fiddleing with my toys ::) lol :D

so i hooked up a simple closed loop unit.... sure it works .... lol but hers the cool sh!t i put my unit under load and it speeds up ... i take the load away it slows down ;D

the load is a 12vdc deep cycle battery 8) its job is to charge it lol

this sys will never run out of engery.... it will always have enough of a reserve to recharge its self ;D i have a invertor in the mix 2 chargers and 3 batteries 8)

ist

this entire unit is public on ou but not showen how it is hooked up and i will not!! but letting you all know it is easly done ;)

its been running almost 24 hours 12 in closed loop operation

cheers !!

@ IS

Are you saying you closed the loop with the Jule Thief circuit or is it another circuit ???

PS: As for "this entire unit is public on ou but not showen how it is hooked up"....when will you take this out of the hidden from public mode and show us the circuit you used? This world definitely could use a helping hand :D

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: maw2432 on December 28, 2008, 09:22:49 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on December 28, 2008, 08:26:05 AM
hey guys i got luckey too ;D i must say i enjoyed my self lol :D

yea well that is not the reason for my post ....

i been fiddleing with my toys ::) lol :D

so i hooked up a simple closed loop unit.... sure it works .... lol but hers the cool sh!t i put my unit under load and it speeds up ... i take the load away it slows down ;D

the load is a 12vdc deep cycle battery 8) its job is to charge it lol

this sys will never run out of engery.... it will always have enough of a reserve to recharge its self ;D i have a invertor in the mix 2 chargers and 3 batteries 8)

ist

this entire unit is public on ou but not showen how it is hooked up and i will not!! but letting you all know it is easly done ;)

its been running almost 24 hours 12 in closed loop operation

cheers !!

Which unit are you refering to? Why would you not want to show everyone how to hook it up?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 28, 2008, 10:15:47 AM

@ nievesoliveras

I agree. The easiest way to light the tube is to just cut the leads off the large cap near the body and then attach the tube to the two leads that are left on the board. You will only get power to the tube for half of each AC cycle, but that is better than no power and it is easy to do. Then all you need to do is figure out how to short the charging switch.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 28, 2008, 11:40:33 AM

Quote from: maw2432 on December 28, 2008, 09:22:49 AM

Which unit are you refering to? Why would you not want to show everyone how to hook it up?

because it is too simple...... i figured it out so can all of you it keeps it fun ya know !

yes similar to the jt unit .... just a wee bit bigger ;)

peace

ist!

know the answer sits there .... wateing for you all to discover it :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on December 28, 2008, 11:44:47 AM

It keeps nagging away at me that the Steven Marks unit may simply be a ramped up 9 volt jule thief.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 28, 2008, 12:04:03 PM

@ Jeanna:

If you want to exactly replicate my modified Fuji AA board, here is how it is hooked up. (I am learning how to use paint)

Legend below.

X= where I originally hooked up to where the resistor was, had a cold solder joint and it burned the area around the connection.

1=connection to the stripped side of the diode

2=My new connection to end pin on transformer AND one side of metal capacitor. (same path) I did the double connection for added strength.

Let me know if you have any questions.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on December 28, 2008, 12:18:53 PM

Well, I'm still on page 27 of this thread, but I thought I would post pics of the board I have. I got lucky and found an 8 year old disposable Kodak MAX HQ. The board seemed similar enough to the ones you all have. I am reading the rest of the thread, but is there anything I can do with this board? Are these boards the "new" developments in Joule Thief tinkering? What should I do with this board to get some power out of my AA's? If it really gives good results, I would try hooking it to my Earth Battery ;D

Oh, I've included pics of my Joule Thief too ;D
Showing off like a proud father or something :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 28, 2008, 12:21:25 PM

Quote from: maw2432 on December 28, 2008, 08:27:06 AM
@ Pirate

Bill, 300 LEDs is truly amazing. I say go for the record and get another set. For $5.00 you can always use the LEDs on other projects.
One question, what should we do with all of the leftover camera capacitors? Do you think they would be good for experimenting with the Young Effect?

BTW have you tried asking for free recycled cameras. They do not seem to mind giving you a few if you ask at the photo shops that I have stopped by.

Bill

I may have to try 400, I can't help it. As far as the caps go, I just saved them with all of my other salvaged electronic parts. To work on the Young Effect, I would use 2 caps that matched exactly, (not that any 2 do exactly, but close as possible) the caps on these boards, at least the ones I have seen, have no markings except which lead is ground. they are probably close to the same values and maybe are the same, but, i would rather know for sure when experimenting or otherwise you have added another variable to the mix. (another unknown) This is usually not good. Plus, having been zapped by these, I would use something smaller to play around with just in case.

No, I have not asked for any cameras as of yet, but I plan on it. Do they let you sort through a barrel of them? (so you can at least pick out a Fuji) or do you just ask for Fuji and they look for some? Or, do you get some Fuji and some Kodak? We have many photo places in our town and I'll bet, not too many folks are asking for cameras here so, possibly I can hit the mother load by going to maybe 10 locations. This is a great idea and I will do it.

If I can get a good number of FREE AA Fuji boards (more than I need) Maybe I can ship some to others that can't get this type in their area? I believe Jesus said he was having trouble finding this board? We will see how it goes.

@ Cap-Z-ro:

You know, that could easily be true. A large toroid winding, some mysterious black tape hiding a "power unit". you are right, maybe just a large JT circuit which would run most electrical devices. (small ones) Good thinking.

@ Jesus:

Thanks for the suggestion on the circuit modification. I will try this on the AAA board.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 28, 2008, 12:31:17 PM

@ Timmy:

Nice photos!! I would suggest reading up on the rest of the topic as all of this is discussed in some detail, and you can also see why most, if not all, of us are favoring the Fuji AA board for our experiments. I am sure something can be done with the Kodak and I believe Jesus has done that and posted about it. There are a lot of photos and diagrams in this topic that you should see. You will also see how we got to where we are now, and what can be done with these circuits.

A short recap:

Modified Fuji AA board lighting 6 inch florescent tube, then 18 inch tube, then 48 inch tube and then two 48 inch tubes. then, I lit 100 leds, then 200 leds, and last night I lit 300 leds, All of the above with an AA battery. (The same battery as it turns out) Others have done some incredible things as well so, I believe it is well worth the time reading to get caught up.

The camera boards are working on the same principle as the original JT circuits. We are also still working with the ones like you built.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: maw2432 on December 28, 2008, 12:47:33 PM

@ Pirate

I just ask them for a few Fuji recycled cameras for school experiments. They asked me how many did I want? Not to be too greedy I said a hand full. So the guy reached down in his barrel and pulled out 5 for me. I figured that I could always go back for more if needed. Although they were all Fuji cameras, there were 3 differnt kinds. I will be taking them apart today and hope at least one is like yours.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 28, 2008, 01:34:11 PM

@ timmy
nice job on your first jt!
i have a couple of those kodak boards you posted, some are identical, some vary slightly from yours. i will take a poke at them later and see what i can come up with.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on December 28, 2008, 03:42:19 PM

@Wilby
Thanks! I really would just be happy turning it into a better Joule Thief than the one I made so that I might be able to do something with my humble little Earth Battery. So far, I have 1.046vdc to work with. I just don't know how to translate what is on my board into what is on everyone else's Fuji boards. From what I can see, I don't think there is even a resistor on this board. I think the two black things on the back are diodes. The capacitor is 330v and 120uf.

Side question:
I've got a bunch of caps and things from an old power supply and I was wondering if anyone knows of a way I can use them on a Joule Thief to improve it. I've got a few 200v 470uf, one that says 2.2k 100vcmc, and quite a few 10v 2200uf caps. There are also two or three big transformers(compared to the camera transformers anyway) on there and some transistors attached to big heat sinks. I also wound a big torroid last night with that stranded copper wire from some cat5 cable.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 28, 2008, 05:22:59 PM

Timmy:

On your earth battery, you didn't say how many amps (Milliamps) you were getting? If you get your carbon rod, you should be seeing almost 2 vdc or so at maybe 15 mA's. (It depends on a lot of variables) I don't know if this is enough to "start" the simple JT circuit or not. My ground is about frozen but when I get the chance, i will see if it will. If it does, then I will try the Fuji AA modified circuit. I am going to begin with the one like you made. All of this testing and not enough time.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: AbbaRue on December 28, 2008, 05:39:13 PM

@Pirate88179
Have you tried connecting 2 diodes as an AV plug to different parts of the board?
Maybe these camera units could function as a cold electricity device as well.
All the components seem to be present that we fined in the Stiffler devices.
The same connection that lights a FL tube with one wire as you hold the other end in your hand,
theoretically should work as a cold electricity connection.
If these do work the same then we may have solved the Doctors biggest problem.
The resonance stops when you connect an external device to his units.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 28, 2008, 05:52:52 PM

AbbaRue:

Yes, that is a great thought. I know about the AV plug (don't really understand it) but I too was curious to see if we can use that somehow. I just do not know enough (yet) to do so. If you do, please try this and report back to us. As you mentioned, and I agree, there are some similarities here with Dr. Stiffler's work and maybe the differences have to do with the AV plug? I wish I knew more. I am learning all the time here by reading and doing. I just think this would be beyond my understanding at the present moment.

I believe Freezer has some of Doc's boards (SEC) and maybe he can discuss the similarities and differences as he sees them?

My brief understanding when doing the one wire connection from the Fuji AA board to the tubes was that I (my body) was acting as a ground in some way. This may not be accurate at all. I was just raised thinking you always need two wires to complete a DC circuit. But after seeing some cool stuff here on OU dot com, I don't think that is true anymore.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: AbbaRue on December 28, 2008, 06:01:50 PM

@Pirate88179
A quick test is to short the 2 ends of the LED string plug together and then just connect one wire to the shorted plug.
That will tell you right away if it works as a cold electricity device.
The string of LED's will work like an AV plug because they are light emitting DIODES.
No other parts are needed.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 28, 2008, 06:33:05 PM

AbbaRue:

Yes, I know they are diodes which is why I can't see this working with the experiment you suggested. But, I also did not know that the leds string might represent an AV plug of sorts....so....I will give it a try and report back. Thanks for the idea. If they do still light, then this means we are closer to what Dr. Stiffler was doing? Well, no use speculating until I give it a try. Thanks again.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 28, 2008, 07:06:03 PM

@Pirate88179

Can not tell what is in package by label. I bought a 2 pack with this label and one of cameras is an AA board with LED (haven't opened the other one yet). I think this is just the new package style and the cameras inside can still be anything.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on December 28, 2008, 07:16:54 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 28, 2008, 05:22:59 PM
Timmy:

On your earth battery, you didn't say how many amps (Milliamps) you were getting? If you get your carbon rod, you should be seeing almost 2 vdc or so at maybe 15 mA's. (It depends on a lot of variables) I don't know if this is enough to "start" the simple JT circuit or not. My ground is about frozen but when I get the chance, i will see if it will. If it does, then I will try the Fuji AA modified circuit. I am going to begin with the one like you made. All of this testing and not enough time.

Bill

@Bill
I haven't checked the mA yet. I will measure this with the galvanised spike and again when I replace the spike with the magnesium. I know really nothing about electricity so I didn't even think to check the mA. Thanks for the reminder. ;D

I just made another JT with a much bigger toroid than the first. I also put a high-brightness pink(the only color they had for high brightness) LED on it and it is incredibly bright! :o
I don't know if it is more efficient or anything. Can someone tell me how to measure how much this is outputting? I'm not sure where to connect the meter contacts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 28, 2008, 07:52:20 PM

@ timmy1729

Measuring the output is hard because it is pulsed high voltage. But you can easily measure the input power by putting an ammeter in series with battery. Then you can adjust resistor value to get best brightness with lowest current. Keep resistor value over 1000 ohms to start just to be safe and not risk damaging meter.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 28, 2008, 07:53:11 PM

Quote from: xee2 on December 28, 2008, 07:06:03 PM
@Pirate88179

Can not tell what is in package by label. I bought a 2 pack with this label and one of cameras is an AA board with LED (haven't opened the other one yet). I think this is just the new package style and the cameras inside can still be anything.

Here is the visual difference from the outside of the camera. THE BOX IS THE SAME FOR BOTH!. I moved---sorry for the fuzz.

The AA has a push button and is a smooth rubberish button you hold for 1 flash or lift up the door for continuous flash.
The AAA has a green button with 4 bumps that you slide up into position for flash.

I hope this uploads.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 28, 2008, 08:50:54 PM

@ jeanna

Great info. The package shows the AA version. I recommend opening the package at the store and demanding your money back if the camera inside is not like the one shown on the package. That way only AA cameras will have to be paid for.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 28, 2008, 09:17:55 PM

@xee2

HA!

I am using the AA that I have since there was a real success with it.
I put a switch on it like Bill's.
Then I soldered the striped end of the diode (underneath).

My question to you is, why should the 2 switch ends be connected on the board?
and
Is there a way to test this without a bulb to know if the power is going where it is supposed to? I should think so, but I need to use my torroid joule thief to get any results. but I didn't short those switch places and I didn't connect the 2 that Bill jumpered together, because on my board, they are both on the same path. I think that means they are connected, doesn't it?

I guess the other thing I did was to check it for resistance and voltage. I never saw more than 1.55v, which is the battery. In many places on the board I get 1.55v.

I am doing this to learn, as much as to light a light, and I think you can answer these.

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 28, 2008, 09:29:41 PM

@timmy

To measure the voltage output place the meter red cable on the collector of the transistor and the black cable to ground.
That should give ac voltage without the LED with the LED could give 2.55v dc or more.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 28, 2008, 09:29:51 PM

@ jeanna

I do not think I understand just what you did. If you put a switch across the little traces on each side of hole then you do not need to short them out (the switch should do that). If you have those traces shorted, then there should be about 700 volts AC between the cathode of diode (side with line) and the negative battery clip. CAUTION - many DVM can be damaged by 700 volts, so check carefully before testing.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 28, 2008, 09:57:13 PM

@ jeanna

When I put a 100 ohm resistor in place of the tube, I measure 0.27 volts AC across it. But this is not an accurate measurement since the AC is not a pure sine wave. CAUTION - if you try this be sure not to get the 700 volts into your meter unless it can take it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 28, 2008, 10:01:19 PM

I just got zapped. good sign.

I will try again.

thanks

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 28, 2008, 10:20:00 PM

@ Xee2:

Ah ha! That is good information. The label you posted is the same as on Jeanna's and my AAA board cameras. As I said before, the first one I got had an oval label with the same wording but, it seems you are right in that it is still the luck of the draw. Good news and bad I guess. It is good news because all of the cameras at the store that I have seen have this new label, maybe this means some of them are the AA board. (I hope)

@ AbbaRue:

I did your experiment. I took one string of leds (100) still mounted on my tree and placed a jumper between the two prongs on the male plug. I took another jumper from ONE of my outputs on the AA board and attached that to one prong of the male plug. When I touched the battery casing....the LEDs lit up brightly. I don't know what this means but it worked like you said.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 28, 2008, 11:07:38 PM

@xee2,

I checked with my meter and I am indeed getting a number as high as 1400v/ It goes up and down when connected to those points you mentioned.

I just changed the tip on my soldering iron and killed it. I suppose it must have a fuse? oh well I guess I will buy a new one - unless someone knows what likely happened. I just took one off and replaced it with the other. same pkg as original- a spark at the wall happened. That has never happened with this 45watt thing. Oh well sparks in the wrong place...

So, I clipped 2 long aligator leads. One from the soldered lead to the diode spot. The other clipped to the neg of the battery near /over the switch. The light did not go on.

I am willing to cut the diode now. If that is all I need.

Bill, did you get nothing until you clipped the fiode? I think I remember it was on but not very bright.

The light is a 15 watt fluoro tube. 18" long.

I am clipping to the opposite ends of the tube and on the same side. Is that right? (I did try every combination, but no light yet.)

jeanna
===============
WOAH
I just got the neon to start.
I went looking for the past pages to see what people told Bill, and I ran across jesus' statement on page 26 http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.250 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.250) where he uses the big cap leads and...

I just did a little and the neon is flashing - the long copper end of the upper flash activating terminals make a spark when I touch them with a plastic tip. but still the light stays off.

@jesus You say to remove the resistor. There are 3 resistors... all of them?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 28, 2008, 11:21:50 PM

@ jeanna

Will your meter read 1400 volts without damage? If so, then take one of you other new AA boards and remove only the large capacitor. Then use your clip leads to short the little traces each side of hole. Then connect the battery. Then measure the volatge between the neagative batter clip and the end of the diode with the line. You should measure at least 700 volts AC. If you do everything is working.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 28, 2008, 11:23:18 PM

@ Jeanna:

Yes, I got plenty of juice prior to cutting the diode. I got (subjective here) about a 25% increase in brightness after doing so. Wow, 45 watts is huge for a soldering gun for these little boards. Mine is 24 watt and if I am not careful, things fry real fast. Why did you clip to the - battery terminal? Unless you are not trying to replicate what I have. I know some have suggested that but...well, you saw my diagrams.

I never took apart my soldering iron but, there might be a fuse in there somewhere. Usually, my large one just blows the breaker if something is wrong. Did you know it is not a good idea to solder under water? (Just kidding)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 28, 2008, 11:32:45 PM

@ jeanna

If you do not cut the diode lead, you can connect the tube to the two leads that where going to the large cap. The only thing you need to do to the board is remove the large cap and short out the little traces from one side of hole to the other.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: maw2432 on December 28, 2008, 11:44:49 PM

@ Pirate

Bill, I went to Krogers today. The 100 LED lights are now $3.00. I should have waited a few days.... sale prices are now even better for the extra LEDs. I purchased a 100 set of the clear white. Each box comes with 2 spare bulbs. I tried one of single spares with a 1.5V battery and it did not light.... It lit brightly with two AA - 3V. It blew at 6V with 4AA. I wonder how we have not blown any of the bulbs with the Fuji circuit.??

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 28, 2008, 11:45:31 PM

Quote from: xee2 on December 28, 2008, 11:32:45 PM
@ jeanna

If you do not cut the diode lead, you can connect the tube to the two leads that where going to the large cap. The only thing you need to do to the board is remove the large cap and short out the little traces from one side of hole to the other.

I will answer this first because it is closest to the config I'm using.
I have not yet cut the diode.
The only think I took out was the large cap.

now,
I have both alig clips/leads on the cap leads.
the other end of each of them is attached to the leads on each end of the bulb.

The neon is blinking - yes this one has real neon.
It is pretty cold in here and fluros need warmth to make light. The neon flashed faster when I wrapped the bulb ends in my (cold) hands to warm it up. So, it did warm it a little, I guess.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 28, 2008, 11:52:20 PM

Great news about the sale! Well, as I said before, when running 100 for a brief second, they were "too" bright. So with 200, or 300, I think we are safe. I have been running mine (300) for a while with no problems. And, what you said is what amazes me about all of this. You ( or me) can't even light 1 of these Christmas LEDs with an AA battery, yet we can now light 300. (maybe more) I am going for 400!!!

Thanks for telling me about Krogers. You can't buy 2 leds at Radio Shack for that price.

300 leds @ 3 volts ea. is 900 volts and I have been told that we are getting close to 1,000 volts counting both sides of the alternating current. Plus there is the frequency factor that I am not sure what LEDs do with that.....if they like that or not....so far....seems they do.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 28, 2008, 11:59:46 PM

@ jeanna

If the neon is blinking you are making at least 90 volts and the little traces each side of hole are shorted together correctly. You should be getting over 300 volts DC at the leads that were connected to large cap. If not then something is wrong. The tube may not work with DC, I have not tested this (but I think it should). Try measuring the voltage across the leads the were going to large cap (without the tube connected).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 29, 2008, 12:01:14 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 28, 2008, 11:23:18 PM
Why did you clip to the - battery terminal? Unless you are not trying to replicate what I have. I know some have suggested that but...well, you saw my diagrams.

Bill

My soldering iron was plopping large glops of solder and what was left for me to connect were those 2 spots underneath that connect the transformer and cap? I think? I wasn't sure about it, However, I WAS sure I'd ruin it with a blop of solder. In fact I went for it once and got a large mist of white powder all over the board. So, that is when I decided I had to change the tip.

While looking for the original description of what you did, I came across jesus' statement to hook it up between cap leads and close the trigger and remove the resistor. I didn't do all those things, but the neon started to flash.

I think I am close. The trigger leads spark when I touch them.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 29, 2008, 12:07:50 AM

@ Jeanna:

Ah, I see. (about the soldering iron) Yes, this is pretty tricky soldering even when the equipment is working properly, those paths are close together and it would not take much solder to bridge two or three of them. On my circuit, the trigger coil is not in play at all so I am not sure what is going on there. If you are going to try to run it on just the dc supply to the cap, I can't be of any help with this. I have not tried it nor do I know why/if it will work. The other guys here will know so, follow what they say.

I have a very fine tip on my iron and it was still hard to "get it right" on this board. So, I understand what you are up against. Just be careful, that little board is juiced up in places I had no idea even had juice. I am now on my 11th jolt, ha ha. Maybe I will learn one day.

Bill ***EDIT*** BTW, I believe Jesus's suggestion was for the Kodak boards as I don't believe he has found a Fuji there yet.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 29, 2008, 12:08:25 AM

Quote from: xee2 on December 28, 2008, 11:59:46 PM
@ jeanna

If the neon is blinking you are making at least 90 volts and the little traces each side of hole are shorted together correctly. You should be getting over 300 volts DC at the leads that were connected to large cap. If not then something is wrong. The tube may not work with DC, I have not tested this (but I think it should). Try measuring the voltage across the leads the were going to large cap (without the tube connected).

240volts

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 29, 2008, 12:15:06 AM

@ jeanna

:) Great your board is working. The tube just won't work with DC. So now measure between end of diode with line and negative battery clip. Should be over 700 volts AC.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 29, 2008, 12:15:45 AM

WOW THE LIGHT IS ON!!!

I DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED.

1- I clipped the trigger leads together. nothing

2 unclipped them.

3- picked up the unit by the xenon flasher and the neon strobed faster and faster.

4- there was a flash.

5 Nothing. no voltage no neon no nothin.

6- I adjusted the clips on the cap and the light went on slowly then brightened wow!

I'm gonna show you with a picture.

wow I am excited!!

time is 9:15PM

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 29, 2008, 12:24:22 AM

@ jeanna

Great, BUT it seems you still have the large capacitor on the board. That could be a problem. I think it would work better and be safer if you took it off. If you do be careful. Short it with screw driver first. It may be charged.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 29, 2008, 12:24:29 AM

YIPPIE

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 29, 2008, 12:28:50 AM

@ Jeanna:

Way to go!!!! That is a 15 watt tube you have there! Isn't this great?????? I hope you can fix your soldering iron but, you were able to do it without it. Nice work! (great picture too)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 29, 2008, 12:29:05 AM

Quote from: xee2 on December 29, 2008, 12:24:22 AM
@ jeanna

Great, BUT it seems you still have the large capacitor on the board. That could be a problem. I think it would work better and be safer if you took it off.

I think you are looking at the back of the xenon flasher.

I popped it and took it off before I did anything .

thank you,

jeanna

It is cold in here. I have a small cfl that resists turning on every morning. I need to touch it and sometimes move my hand around a bit before it goes on. But on a warm morning or in the afternoon, it goes on right away.

59F-60F

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 29, 2008, 12:33:13 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 29, 2008, 12:28:50 AM
@ Jeanna:

Way to go!!!! That is a 15 watt tube you have there! Isn't this great?????? I hope you can fix your soldering iron but, you were able to do it without it. Nice work! (great picture too)

Bill

OMG this is great!! (BIG FONT)

I've been wanting to get a battery operated iron anyway. Sometimes something needs to break before I will replace it with what I want. (I hate to shop)

Jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 29, 2008, 12:37:25 AM

@ jeanna

Looks brite to me. Congratulations. :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 29, 2008, 12:59:02 AM

Thanks,

I hope I don't need to hold the flash mechanism whenever I want it to start. I want to see how long it will stay on for now, or, at least measure the battery after 2 hours. mmm another late night.

btw
I just took the temp at the floor. It is 55F.

Thank you xee and everybody, for all your help.

Jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 29, 2008, 01:18:06 AM

@ jeanna

nice job!

but im concerned with why your soldering iron blew......

anyone got an answer??

hummmm......

how about the higher potencial in the cap touched somthing on the board and was looking for gorund it found it in YOUR WALL SOCKET and blew you soldering iron on its way through

just a guess... i bet there was some BIG POWER THERE TO DO THAT ...OR SOME SMALL POWER RELEASED REAL FAST... ;) WHAT IS THE DIFF LEFT HAND AND RIGHT LOL :D

BE CAREFUL!!!!

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 29, 2008, 01:20:59 AM

@ jeanna

Circuit draws about 400 ma from AA battery. Theoretically, AA battery will last about 3 hours with 400 ma drain. More info here:

http://www.powerstream.com/AA-tests.htm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 29, 2008, 01:51:46 AM

Yes, It may be that. It looks about the same brightness. About 1 hour along the voltage read 0.98vdc. Now it has been 1 hour 40 minutes and the voltage is still 0.98v. mmm

It will be worthwhile working this on the ac part of the circuit. I am starting to understand what you were getting at telling Bill to clip off the diode + end. I assume the next thing after doing that would be to connect the traces so the E- goes both ways through the cap-leads.

I am thinking that the trigger leads didn't work on this before, because I had not eliminated the diode . If both the diode is gone and the trigger switch is closed, then the cap is getting ac according to jesus' post and drawing.

fun.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 29, 2008, 02:06:31 AM

@ jeanna

Yes, shorting out diode will send AC to large capacitor leads.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 29, 2008, 07:29:51 AM

@jeanna

This thread is going very fast!
Yesterday it was about three pages less.
Today I found that you had a tremendous success with an 18" 15w lamp.
That is awesome!

I wish I could find a fuji circuit to experiment with it.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 29, 2008, 08:53:07 AM

hey jesus ....

build your own ;)..... water to wine :)

ist

i am building a wee bit bigger than the cam flash unit.....

i got 3 transformers... i will run em backward ;)

i will build a pulser unit .. wich is already built....

might try a fet .... ;D

ist

sorry no pic i have plans for this unit..... btw i took apart bout 10 transformers last night ...... they are ferroite cores... some are flybacks ;D

have a round center core with a small mag cap gap ;D lol

i will be rewinding em 8)

to suit my needs .....

i also built a big pulse motor yesterday...

and a huge coil..... ;D and i do mean huge .... sure i will post a pic of it .... ;D as im proud of my new coil...

used 14ga and 22ga magwire on a 4"x4" spool ... bifillar .. aircore ... polorized and layered fried from inside out ... im aimeing for 10 layers

i have 5 done so far it is the most perfect coil i have wound yet not 1 wire out of place 8)

btw i have wound all my coils by hand... and i literly have hundreds of coils some milies long .... practice makes perfect!! ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: maw2432 on December 29, 2008, 09:42:25 AM

@ IST

Can you show us pic of your battery charging unit?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: AbbaRue on December 29, 2008, 09:46:07 AM

@jeanna
Is that 400mA drain only with the FLL connected or is it always drawing that much current?

@Pirate88179
You got the 100 LED's to light from one wire I believe we have a cold electricity source here.
If you short the prongs of all 3 strings of LED's and connect that same wire to all three and they light,
then we truly have something awesome here.
I bought a camera on Friday, now I just need to use up the film don't want to waste it.
Then I plan on testing this out too.

@innovation_station
Have you tried connecting just one wire up to a FL Tube to see if a standard JT will light a tube from one wire?
If you connect a bunch of LED's together in series and short them out to form a circle of LED's,
you should be able to connect a single wire anywhere in the circle of LED's and get the whole circle to light up.
If they do than the standard JT circuit also works as a source of Cold Electricity.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 29, 2008, 09:48:42 AM

no sorry ...

@abba sorry i did not i will today i have 2 24 led rings i will post a pic of the compleated unit later on im building many things at once as always lol :)

for my closed loop system .....

i will tell u what is involved

primary bat to pulse motor charges 2 batteries 1 is output to invertor ... other goes to other charger and returns to source.... my primary battery is small output batteries is big... get it ;)

kinda like big cap small cap ;)

ist

free cake is from hemf!!! ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Thaelin on December 29, 2008, 11:49:24 AM

Hi Jenna:
Been hiding in the background and enjoying the fun. Its good to see that these tubes
can be lit up with a small amount of power. I noticed in one of your pics that you have
the board laying on the inside of a metal container such as a cookie tin. This could short
out and cause you grief in the future. A piece of paper, cardboard or such between will
save you getting more parts later.

At Tommy(Timmy)?
Cant remember which, sorry, but thanks for the pic showing the value of the cap used.
This is what I figured, fairly small uf but high voltage. The new ones are most likely same
area uf but at say 600v so that it can retain some of the charge for the next flash.

To All:
Many thanks for shareing your findings and great pics. Just goes to show just how little
power you need to make things happen if done right. The comment about the 9v TPU can
really be viable. Just put it all together in the right combination it the trick.

thaelin

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 29, 2008, 12:31:51 PM

Quote from: Thaelin on December 29, 2008, 11:49:24 AM
Hi Jeanna:
I noticed in one of your pics that you have
the board laying on the inside of a metal container such as a cookie tin. This could short
out and cause you grief in the future. A piece of paper, cardboard or such between will
save you getting more parts later.
thaelin

Hi Thaelin,

Thanks for your concern. You can't see it, but there is a playing card (the joker!) under the circuit.

I have the whole circuit on the tin lid because I didn't want to char the carpet as I did with the tablecloth last year playing around with my first flash camera. ;D )

And, yes, this is a good reminder about the strength of these little things.

@jesus, Too bad you can't get any disposable camera at all? I should think any circuit prepared as you described will work.

@Abba rue,

I didn't say 400mA. That was xee2 and I was wondering where he got that figure. The light is 15 watts at 120 volts, so it should be using 125 mA not 400mA. I think this would be more like what I was seeing. If I had started earlier, I could have tested the battery longer.

The battery was at 0.95v when I turned it off but as soon as it was disconnected, it was 1.05v (this morning it has recovered to 1.30v.)

@All
This morning I turned the switch on and the neon went on for about 1 minute, then stopped. I switched to a new battery then smelled heat and felt that the transistor which was cool last night was hot.

I guess I need to play around with this a bit more. I am afraid to fry my new 35-led string since it lights up my bathroom so nicely for 2.4 watts.

Also on the docket for today. I Since I never cut the diode, I want to do that. I expect a big improvement, now that I understand a bit more about what the circuit does electrically.) But, before that I need to replace the solder iron.

thanks all,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on December 29, 2008, 01:05:52 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on December 28, 2008, 09:29:41 PM
@timmy

To measure the voltage output place the meter red cable on the collector of the transistor and the black cable to ground.
That should give ac voltage without the LED with the LED could give 2.55v dc or more.

Jesus

What do I use for ground, the base fo the transistor? How do I measure with the LED?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 29, 2008, 01:50:32 PM

@ist

Thank you innovation.

@jeanna

I got a camera in the beggining that even though it was not fuji it resembled it a lot. Except that its transformer had six legs but only five were working. It had a leg that had nothing comming from the transformer's coil.
I still have the transformer the transistor, the resistor and the 0.22uf cap.
When I assemble the pieces together, it gives 1000v and it also lights a 13w cfl lamp.

@timmy

Put the meter negative on the negative side of the battery and the positive to the transistor collector to measure without the LED.
With the LED on just measure between its two legs to read the voltage it has.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 29, 2008, 02:03:06 PM

So, I shorted the diode. I had already soldered a jumper wire to the - side so, I looped it around and wrapped it onto the other leg of the diode. So that is shorted.

Then I bent the trigger copper so it stays shut. Now that is shorted.

The starting is a little flakey, but easier than the other way. I move the battery into place, with the switch already on and ON SHE GOES! The battery may be lose - it is. or there is something flaky, but it is staying on and bright.

This time it is ac

The meter reads 0.00vdc and 137vac. measuring either side of the fluro tube. ooo this is soo cool.

I think it started around 9:30AM. I will stay with it- nevermind the solder iron. I wonder if I could add the 35 led string??

Here is the pic AC power:

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 29, 2008, 02:11:20 PM

@jeanna

You know what I did to keep the battery in place. I cut a piece of bicycle inner tube and wrapped around the battery holder with the battery on it. When you cut the rubber tube do it in a way that it comes out like a wide rubber band, or just use a wide rubber band around the battery holder.

Nice job you did!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 29, 2008, 02:23:50 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on December 29, 2008, 02:11:20 PM

@jesus,

Thanks.

That is a good idea about the tire. I used E- tape yesterday. Rubber band is a good idea.

I was thinking that the camera case might make a good "project box", since the battery is really held in place by that camera case. Plus the switch is right there in the right place too. You could just flip the camera charge switch and your under-counter fluro light would go on. If you needed to change the battery just reach into the bottom of the camera case and replace.

It would look kinda funny having cameras pointing out with fluro tubes nearby.

wadayathink Bill? Would this have an effect on a potential burglar to have a light right next to a camera with wires coming out of it hooking them together? ;D ;D

Thanks again for everyone's help.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: AbbaRue on December 29, 2008, 03:35:02 PM

@jeanna
You may want to place something thicker under the board to separate it from the metal.
Like maybe a book or piece of wood, the tracers under the board will set up a capacitance with the
cookie tin lid through the card, and that may cause parts to get hot.
The voltage on these boards is high enough for something like this to matter.
I placed a High Voltage circuit on top of my stove between the burners once and had some components fry.
Nothing was touching any metal, or arcing yet it still fried.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on December 29, 2008, 04:50:55 PM

I was able to light a 40watt flurescent bulb without using the terminals.
I don't know if this is possible with this setup. I ran a piece of copper wire along the length of the bulb and attached it to the signal wire of a cbradio. The shield of the radio (copper stranded) I dropped into a cup of water and set it next to the bulb. The shield has to have no iron involved and just the use of a clip at the termination of the jumper killed the effect. The bulb lights when you key the mike. The mercury vapor seems to be able to be excited by voltage only. Water may also act as an infrared converter so that the reflected 27mhz wave is reflected with the ir running on top of the lower freq. Need more experimentation.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 29, 2008, 05:11:29 PM

Quote from: jeanna on December 29, 2008, 02:23:50 PM
.
.
.
I was thinking that the camera case might make a good "project box", since the battery is really held in place by that camera case. Plus the switch is right there in the right place too. You could just flip the camera charge switch and your under-counter fluro light would go on. If you needed to change the battery just reach into the bottom of the camera case and replace.

It would look kinda funny having cameras pointing out with fluro tubes nearby.
.
.
.
Thanks again for everyone's help.

jeanna

I made a sketch of the possible looks of the counter in the meantime I brainstorm to do some experiments with a bifilar coil.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 29, 2008, 05:12:20 PM

@ sparks

I need at least one lead for an AAA battery.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on December 29, 2008, 05:35:17 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on December 29, 2008, 01:50:32 PM

@timmy

Put the meter negative on the negative side of the battery and the positive to the transistor collector to measure without the LED.
With the LED on just measure between its two legs to read the voltage it has.

Jesus

Thanks for answering the beginner's question, Jesus ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 29, 2008, 05:43:39 PM

@jesus,
That is just what I was thinking. Thanks for the drawing.

@xee2... ?? 1 AAA and the bulb lights? I don't think so?

My AC only worked for 2 hours then started flickering. I touched a few things, then when I touched the copper around the xenon case, it went out (no flash) and has not gone back on no matter what I try.

Maybe I should put it on the stove! ;D

I guess I will go back and sort out Bill's final circuit, then xee's to see how they do.

I did get a new solder iron and I have 2 good cameras, so I guess I ought to make one of each?? Are there any changes from xee or bill I should know about?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 29, 2008, 05:54:56 PM

@ jeanna

Photo is real. The AAA battery is a bit old by now.

Just follow my last set of instructions. That is how mine is built. One of the leads to the large cap goes to the negative battery clip, so you might want to use that instead of the clip if you are not using a separate battery holder.

Did you get another 2 hours out of battery, or just the 2 hours you got last night?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on December 29, 2008, 06:02:38 PM

Quote from: timmy1729 on December 29, 2008, 05:35:17 PM
Thanks for answering the beginner's question, Jesus ;D

@Jesus

??? ??? ???
I measured like you said. What I got was that with or without the LED I was only measuring 1.4vdc. The mA was around 160 or so in both cases. The LED I am using is a Radio Shack 5mm High Brightness Pink LED #276-0019. The package says "FW supply 3.5V (typical), 4.0V (max)" and "FW current 30mA." Isn't the Joule Thief supposed to boost the voltage that it receives?
??? ??? ???

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 29, 2008, 06:50:44 PM

@timmy

The problem most likely is that your Joule thief is not oscillating.
This could be because of a wrong transistor or a shorted or connected wrong toroid coil.
The transistor from radio shack that always work for me is 2n2222. If I use 3904 0r 9014 it does not work.

Make a drawing on paint of how the coil is connected and we will start from there. Also change the transistor to a 2n2222.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 29, 2008, 06:55:15 PM

bout time you chimed in sparks...

lol

i just got back from 2 electronics shops ....wow what a day ... got my switches the cheepest i have payed yet ... got some special materials for some of my advanced tpu's lol ;)

and i got somthing real kool ;D

it has solved my problem or perhaps i did on the way home ;) lol

got the biggest diode and fastest i could find... cost me 45 bucks for 1 diode ;)

somthing like 600v 220 a ;)

i aint gonna blow it lol ... nor is it intended for near those rates in my use ... ;D

ist

but seeing it made it click ;D i will blow no more fets ever lol ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 29, 2008, 06:56:36 PM

Quote from: xee2 on December 29, 2008, 05:54:56 PM
@ jeanna

Photo is real. The AAA battery is a bit old by now.

Just straight off the battery? If so, what is the reason for using this flash circuit??

QuoteJust follow my last set of instructions. That is how mine is built. One of the leads to the large cap goes to the negative battery clip, so you might want to use that instead of the clip if you are not using a separate battery holder.

I will look for your last set. It prob. only 10 pages back or so. :D
I will take note of the neg cap lead.
And is yours still working? If so how long? or is THAT what the picture is?

Quote
Did you get another 2 hours out of battery, or just the 2 hours you got last night?

I got a small response this morning on last night's battery. The neon flashed for 2 minutes. Then it stopped and I wasn't able to start it up.

One of the leads on I think the transformer was bent down and touching something next to it, and by the time I discovered and fixed it, I had changed to a fresh battery. 1.29V NiMH. This is what ran for 2 hours today with the diode and the trigger each shorted. The battery is at the same voltage. I think I broke something. I was fooling around and touched the xenon got a spark - the thing died. I cannot see anything wrong. The transistor has readings that look normal. But they may not be. I may have fried that transistor, I hope not.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 29, 2008, 07:23:57 PM

@ jeanna

The photo is with the AA Fuji board (using an AAA battery instead of the AA battery) with one of the leads to the tube removed.

Another building tip: If you do not have leads with small clips it is hard to clip to the diode lead. If you remove the insulation from a small diameter solid wire then loop about a 1 inch piece around the diode lead and twist it tight then you can clip to the wire. If you don't have a wire to use, you can use the wire from the twist-ties used to close bread wrappers.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 29, 2008, 08:30:50 PM

@ AbbaRue:

I tried another single wire test tonight after work. I had already done the 100 led test so I tried for the entire 300. They would not light. I then tried 200 and they lit, although I would have to say at about (subjective) 30% brightness. I have no idea what this means or does not mean but, that is what happened. On all the tests I had to have my hand near the battery otherwise there was no light. Also, I tested for polarity and it made a difference as well. The LEDs would only light using the single wire from the pin on the transformer, not the lead from the clipped diode. I hope this helps.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 29, 2008, 08:31:12 PM

@Timmy,

I must concur with jesus. As it happens I fried my joule thief torroid today. (I didn't even use the stove as Abba Rue did ;D) but it was my opportunity to change the led to white from red.

I went through the whole thing changing the light and transistor checking polarity all the while. aargh it didn't work as a joule thief.

I had used the 3904. I forgot it doesn't work.

Well, I took out a 2222 and replaced this no good transistor with it. So, I had to do it all over again, this time with the 2222 that I traded with a 3904 on a breadboard. (I was afraid I didn't have one.- but I did.)

So, in the end I too have a new torroid joule thief with a 2222 and white LED. Ah such accomplishment!

;D

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 29, 2008, 08:37:42 PM

Quote from: jeanna on December 29, 2008, 08:31:12 PM
@Timmy,

I must concur with jesus. As it happens I fried my joule thief torroid today. (I didn't even use the stove as Abba Rue did ;D) but it was my opportunity to change the led to white from red.

I went through the whole thing changing the light and transistor checking polarity all the while. aargh it didn't work as a joule thief.

I had used the 3904. I forgot it doesn't work.

Well, I took out a 2222 and replaced this no good transistor with it. So, I had to do it all over again, this time with the 2222 that I traded with a 3904 on a breadboard. (I was afraid I didn't have one.- but I did.)

So, in the end I too have a new toroid joule thief with a 2222 and white LED. Ah such accomplishment!

;D

jeanna

I am using the 3904 on all my JTs with the toroid and all of them light up one or more 10mm superbright white leds. (28,500 mcd's) All of them work using dead batteries as well. Maybe you guys used too heavy of a gauge of wire? (I used 22 ga. on a 1" OD toroid) I have read that this makes them hard to start without the use of a magnet to help it get going. The 3904 is fine for these and I will see how many superbright whites I can light from one later tomorrow.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 29, 2008, 08:43:19 PM

Thought I would repost these to show that the 3904 is just fine for these circuits. Of course, there are many other transistors that will work as well.

@ Jeanna:

You mentioned yesterday during testing that you hooked your Fuji board to your toroid Joule thief....I'll bet you fried the transistor then, or at least, damaged it with the high voltage. Just a thought.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on December 29, 2008, 08:48:24 PM

The action of a flurescent bulb is you heatup the filament and it ouputs infrared waves. Like an incandescent does. The difference is that inside this vacuum tube you have mercury vapor. In an incandescent you got argon which absorbs the ir and converts it into visible freqs. The mercury vapor absorbs the ir and forms a plasma. The plasma is a real good conductor so they have to ballast the line so you don't have a short circuit of electron current from electrode to electrode. Now the plasma doesnt have to have current going through it to be sustained just emwave energy. When the torroidal transformer is used for a choke we convert pulsed energy into heating the core. Again most of this heat is in the ir wavelength. It's all around us we just need to build some decent receivers.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on December 29, 2008, 09:15:33 PM

@ All

Do not stare at high brightness LEDs, because doing so may cause permanent damage to your eyes.

From http://cappels.org/dproj/LED%20Warning/Danger_of_Eye_Danger.html

Other than that, love this thread, keep picking at it :)

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 29, 2008, 09:49:27 PM

@Bill,
My torroid has as many turns as yours. which is 1/2 of Timmy's

Maybe it is the core that is making the difference, .I csnnot even light a red led with a 3904. Jesus says he thinks it is resonance. I don't know, maybe. My torroid core is not one inch, though. It is maybe 1/2 inch with the same number of turns.

About the frying pan issue... I did the test that xee told me to do to see if the cell is working, only instead of using the dmm on 1000V level, I hit those places with the little joule thief. Pop Ouch.

@xee
I plan to make a copy of your circuit before Bills because there is less soldering. I want to recap the steps. I doubt if anyone will mind if I bring this forward 10 pages. so:

1. REMOVED LARGE CAPACITOR. Short with screw driver first. This can be left on board but is large enough to cause serious damage and should be removed just to be safe.
2. Cut lead at anode end of diode and fastened one end of tube to lead at cathode end of diode (end with the line on it). Make sure there is a good size gap where you cut the lead.
3. Connected other end of tube to battery negative clip.
4. Shorted little lines on one side of hole to the lines on the other side of hole (on trace side of board where shown in my previous photo).

Step 4 is because you did not use a switch over those traces.

I'll check in later. Maybe I will have results.

Xee how many hours on one AAA battery?
Bill, is your battery still the first one? Maybe it is running down?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 29, 2008, 10:18:41 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 29, 2008, 08:43:19 PM

@ Jeanna:

You mentioned yesterday during testing that you hooked your Fuji board to your toroid Joule thief....I'll bet you fried the transistor then, or at least, damaged it with the high voltage. Just a thought.

Bill

Actually, I think Abba Rue was right. I cooked it doing nothing unusual, but there was a little shock when I was fiddling with it to keep it on steadily. I touched the xenon and there was a little spark and the light went off and has not gone back on. I bet I fried the transistor. It is likely to be the most sensitive thing and without it there is no oscillation, so, ... I don't know. I did get 2 good 2 hour sessions out of it. On to the next one!

thanks

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 29, 2008, 10:37:03 PM

@ jeanna

Yes, those are the steps I took. Also comments about twisting wire on diode lead and using cap lead instead of negative battery clip. Nothing needs to be removed from board except large cap. Only requires cutting one lead (other than cutting cap leads to remove it). No soldering is required - all connections can be made with clip leads.

I am still on my first battery. I only use it to make tests and take photos.

EDIT: replacing 220 ohm resistor with a larger value will make battery last longer and should still light your LEDs (but wait until you get things working before you try that).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on December 29, 2008, 11:43:10 PM

Quote from: jeanna on December 29, 2008, 09:49:27 PM
@Bill,
My torroid has as many turns as yours. which is 1/2 of Timmy's

Maybe it is the core that is making the difference, .I csnnot even light a red led with a 3904. Jesus says he thinks it is resonance. I don't know, maybe. My torroid core is not one inch, though. It is maybe 1/2 inch with the same number of turns.

jeanna

Well, this is interesting. I've used 3904's on both and both light up really bright. So, in that sense, they work beautifully. They won't even do anything connected to a AA on their own. But on my two JT's using the 3904's, the light is very bright. Here are pics of the new JT. Again, I may just be doing something incorrectly because they obviously work and work well. ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 29, 2008, 11:48:49 PM

this kodak board seems to have some sort of 'continuous charging' thing also. cap was discharged and i got zapped as soon as i put the battery in it. anyways, big cap removed, fluoro in place of it wouldn't light but a neon would. i moved the positive connection back to behind the diode or off the transformer pin and the tube lit fine.

positive lead to tube can be attached at either red box, ground lead to tube can be attached at any black box.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on December 30, 2008, 12:02:27 AM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on December 29, 2008, 11:48:49 PM
this kodak board seems to have some sort of 'continuous charging' thing also. cap was discharged and i got zapped as soon as i put the battery in it. anyways, big cap removed, fluoro in place of it wouldn't light but a neon would. i moved the positive connection back to behind the diode or off the transformer pin and the tube lit fine.

positive lead to tube can be attached at either red box, ground lead to tube can be attached at any black box.

@Wilby
You totally rock! ;D
Is that really all I have to do? Just remove the big cap, hook positive to a red box and negative to a black box? How do I "turn it on" or will it light automatically if the battery is in there?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 30, 2008, 12:06:52 AM

Quote from: timmy1729 on December 30, 2008, 12:02:27 AM
@Wilby
You totally rock! ;D
Is that really all I have to do? Just remove the big cap, hook positive to a red box and negative to a black box? How do I "turn it on" or will it light automatically if the battery is in there?

thanks, yup thats it. sometimes it just lit as soon as i put the battery in, sometimes i had to push the button.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 30, 2008, 12:07:33 AM

WILL YA LOOK AT THE PRESENTATION!!

I very carefully took the camera apart. I was hoping to save the switch because it is such a nice piece of copper sized and placed just right for keeping the light on.

I removed the cap.

I cut the + side of the diode and the whole thing crumbled, so I decided I had better remove it all and solder the red lead right to the board at the place/trace of the - side where it connects to the transformer. I did that from the green side which faces the front of the camera.

I soldered the black lead to the negative side of the battery holder right across the whole square of it.

Then I fed the red wire through the eyepiece. (the shutter is closer, but the wire pinched.)

Then I snapped the camera back in place. It didn't want to stay tightly closed under pressure from the on switch so I used the broccoli band. (fat stiff and tight) And it holds against the switch pressure. have a look.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 30, 2008, 12:15:50 AM

Quote from: jeanna on December 30, 2008, 12:07:33 AM
WILL YA LOOK AT THE PRESENTATION!!

I very carefully took the camera apart. I was hoping to save the switch because it is such a nice piece of copper sized and placed just right for keeping the light on.

I removed the cap.

I cut the + side of the diode and the whole thing crumbled, so I decided I had better remove it all and solder the red lead right to the board at the place/trace of the - side where it connects to the transformer. I did that from the green side which faces the front of the camera.

I soldered the black lead to the negative side of the battery holder right across the whole square of it.

Then I fed the red wire through the eyepiece. (the shutter is closer, but the wire pinched.)

Then I snapped the camera back in place. It didn't want to stay tightly closed under pressure from the on switch so I used the broccoli band. (fat stiff and tight) And it holds against the switch pressure. have a look.

jeanna

nice job jeanna!
you should put that up on instructables.com

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 30, 2008, 12:19:35 AM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on December 30, 2008, 12:06:52 AM
thanks, yup thats it. sometimes it just lit as soon as i put the battery in, sometimes i had to push the button.

That is interesting. How long does the light hold after you push the switch?
It could be a kind of timed light. You know, light goes on so you can find your way to the end of the hall then turns itself out.

Cool.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 30, 2008, 12:25:36 AM

Quote from: jeanna on December 30, 2008, 12:19:35 AM
That is interesting. How long does the light hold after you push the switch?
It could be a kind of timed light. You know, light goes on so you can find your way to the end of the hall then turns itself out.

Cool.

jeanna

it stays on after the switch is pushed.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 30, 2008, 12:32:23 AM

To all
Last nigh i made some experiment with some of the part laying around , so i used a trashed radio power transformer main 70 ohm
and 3 secondary one 1.2 ohm ,2.6 and about 12.8 . I made a Joule thief (1.5v circuit )using a 2n3055 and a 1 k resistor using the lowest secondary as prime in jt and second lowest for secondary.Then i took the main (the one originally used to connect to wall socket) hooked it up to a bridge rectifier and it gave me 80 volts dc and charged a 470 uf 200v quickly up to 120 volt i scared there got quite a spark, it easily lights a neon tagged at 120vdc.I don't have a camera except a fuji lol i should have used it before destroying it, i wish a could show you.

Also really all of you need to build the joule thief it really great. All of you that did here are some of the results of my experiment i added more wires around the the toroid and found that they where also giving real useful voltage doesn't show on meter if not rectified but will work led easily.Tesla pat 381970 could be experiment on toroid ferrite is mostly iron i have experimented winding one and got over 60 volts output from a 1.5 cell. Be careful a led may work even if not properly wired jt led. Led may not light at 1.5 volt dc but ac will do. Most of the jt i have built do not use the regular led wiring i use additional coil to pickup radiant energy from the core and gives me more to work with but you sill connect led the same way.

single strand wire are best they hold in place tight , pnp and npn transistor don't work the same.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 30, 2008, 12:54:31 AM

@ jeanna
You are amazing. I always end up with a bunch of broken pieces of plastic when I take the cameras apart. Does it work?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 30, 2008, 01:36:44 AM

Quote from: xee2 on December 30, 2008, 12:54:31 AM
@ jeanna
You are amazing. I always end up with a bunch of broken pieces of plastic when I take the cameras apart. Does it work?

Microsurgery put to practical use. :D

It works well. It has a flicker to it. It doesn't turn off completely in the flicker. It is just the way fluros are. Somehow, I thought it wouldn't be so running on the battery as it does.

Next is to get some led's to run on what is left when the fluro runs the battery down. I have a single strand of 35. There is no resistor in that kind, because 120 volts divided by 35 gives the perfect voltage for each light in the string. so, it could be dangerous on a full battery, so, I'll wait.

Also, I am counting the time on this AA. It was from a new camera so it will have some meaning, I think.

Maybe this will help opening up the AA camera.

There are clips all around. I mostly used a flat screwdriver and pryed it up. I went around 2 or 3 times each time finding the next set of clips I had missed before. Once the top/front was off, I worked the circuit in the same way. There is a rubber gasket around the flash that holds that corner down. A gentle push and pry gets the cap corner off. But in the center of the board where that rectangular hole is is a long post which I think is glued or made from the other side. It breaks easily if you know where it is.

See if that helps on the next AA camera you open. The AAA have 3 pieces that make the switch and they fall out when it is opened. I haven't solved that one. Anyway the switch on the AAA is not a beautiful copper piece like on this one either..

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 30, 2008, 02:15:01 AM

@ jeanna

:'( It should not flicker. It should work exactly like before after you shorted the diode out. That is all that my mods do. The tube is replacing the large cap and the diode is bypassed. Except that everything after the diode is no longer getting power because of the diode lead being cut. This is good since there is stuff after the diode that will steal some power if the diode lead is not cut. Somehow because of the way you have the leads running inside the case you are getting power coupled from the leads going to the tube back into the circuit. At the frequency the circuit is working at power can go from one place to another easily without an actual connection simply through capacitive coupling. That probably doesn't mean much to you, but I think you should take the board out of the case and get it working OK. Then find a way to package it that does not cause problems.

EDIT: But then again, maybe you want it to flicker so it looks like candles.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on December 30, 2008, 02:56:44 AM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on December 30, 2008, 12:06:52 AM
thanks, yup thats it. sometimes it just lit as soon as i put the battery in, sometimes i had to push the button.

@Wilby
How would you recommend I connect the positive and negative to this board? Should I solder a wire in those spots on the board and then connect to those wires?
Thank you very much for your help and patience with my beginner's questions ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 30, 2008, 03:02:46 AM

Quote from: timmy1729 on December 30, 2008, 02:56:44 AM
@Wilby
How would you recommend I connect the positive and negative to this board? Should I solder a wire in those spots on the board and then connect to those wires?
Thank you very much for your help and patience with my beginner's questions ;D

sure just solder in some wires, if you remove the little silver metal tab thing (i think its for the shutter) that will give you 2 holes to choose for ground. if you remove the diode that would give you a hole for the positive to the bulb as well. i just used alligator clips to test it out.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 30, 2008, 03:07:38 AM

if you get the voltage high enough, you don't even need bulbs ;)
this is shrunk and reduced, the full size image is 2.5megs so i couldn't post it here.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on December 30, 2008, 06:15:08 AM

@ Mk1
welcome to the thread :)

I was very interested to hear you have used parts of a transistor radio transformer and a 2n3055 transistor to get output from a JT.
If you actually got this amount of current out of a jule thief circuit, then this is headding in the right direction. Could it recharge my new Nife cells I wonder?
I would be interested in replicating your JT.
Could you post a circuit please MK1.

@all,
I have been away from this thread for 1 week, my last post was on P38, within this time there has been enormous activity. we are now up to P61. This forum HAS ALMOST DOUBLED IN 7 DAYS. it took me hours to catch up. Teach me to go away for Christmas, ha ha.
I clicked on the thread when it was at 60 then it went to 61 and I hadn't got to the end.

@jeanna
I noticed you had soldering iron troubles, this got me to thinking, I had better go into town tomorrow and buy a emerg soldering iron, (they are on special) just in case the Israeli - Palestinian thing goes belly up and things like soldering irons get scarce, noticed your reply a few posts back, TA.

@ bill
very nice Christmas lights, some a bit blurry, must be my eyes also ha ha, seriously, this is a very good effort bill.

@all can't thank everyone in person enough for the efforts we have all put in this topic (or 2)
There is such a mine of information here now, I also have learnt so much from ist and jesus and everyone.

Way back at the start I mentioned I found a wind generator prop hub assembly at a local dump, (ex Dunlite). I always wanted to drop by at this chappies place who had a wind generator on a tower, we got to talking over a cuppa, I showed him the prop (dismantled) and he got a dose of the green "I want eyetissssss". I was offered a set of 20 Nife 300AH cells, (1.2volts at 300 amps per cell) and a set of much smaller capacity nife cells by this solar energy chap, so I gave it (the prop) to him as a thankyou. Bought some costic soda (electrolyte) for the cells this morning, I intend to hook them up to my 1KW deltec UPS.

For those who don't know about Nife cells, they can be flattened right down to nothing, and then recharged with out any bad effects, don't suffer from memory like nicads, are known to last up to even 80 years if looked after correctly. But they take a long time to recharge and if one discharges at 10% current load eg 300AH rating per cell, is 30Amps safe discharge rate, which is heeps for this kiddo.

I saw a Super Joule Thief on U tube by mutwa

Just had a thought, how long would it take a JT to flattern a 1.2v 300amp nife cell? could someone do the calculations please?

See U all next year lol

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 30, 2008, 07:51:06 AM

@all

I made a mistake on a post and said that the joule thief was resonating, it could be, but what it is doing is oscillating. The transistor with the aid of the resistor and the input from the coil oscillates.

I have four coils I use to experiment building joule thiefs. Only two of them work with a 3904 0r 9014 transistors.
All of them work with a 2n2222 transistor.
That was why I recommended the 2n2222 transistor.

Everybody is happy with their accomplishments. I am happy too and thank everybody for being on this world and sharing your knowledge and friendship.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 30, 2008, 08:07:27 AM

@all

Happy Holidays!!!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 30, 2008, 12:16:44 PM

Wow, I am busy for one night and look at all of the posts!!! I don't know where to begin.

@ Jeanna:

Nice job with your camera case for the circuit! I am like most others on here, when I get done removing the board, there is not much "camera" left, ha ha. Your instructions are great but, both times, I started out really carefully with a lot of patience....but then....2 minutes into it...the brute force approach took over. I agree with those that told you your tube should be on without flickering, unless you are using an old tube you had to replace in your home fixture, then it might be a tube problem. Mine stay constant on and are as bright all the way down the tube, for whatever that's worth.

@ Jim:

Those batteries sound like you could run your house on just a few of them, nice find!

Last night, I experimented briefly attempting to fire a He Ne laser tube I have with the Fuji AA circuit. It would not go. I actually have 2 of these tubes. They are about 2" in dia. and 10" long. It may take more power to get them going. I don't have the specs on these, I just have the tubes. I was hoping to post a picture or two of it working but.......that's the way it goes sometimes.

You know, I really miss being able to scroll down to read at least a few of the previous posts when posting. The way it is now, it shows only the last one. My memory is not good enough to remember all of the posts and what I wanted to say to each so, I will have to go back over them later and post again.

I do agree with Jim that there has been some excellent work done here and I too have learned plenty. Although, I have not learned how not to get zapped by my board. It got me again last night fooling around with the laser tube!

I thank everyone for their participation and contributions to this topic. A week ago or so, I could light 1 led, and now, 300. Geeze, where will we be next week?

Now that we have many others playing with the Fuji circuits out there, there is no telling what we will see. Take care everyone.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 30, 2008, 01:36:40 PM

@electricme

I wish i did post some pic,because it's required to be taken seriously , but i don't have a camera and not planing on buying one but as soon as i will find a way i will post one. There are so many things i have to show you, but you should all tried to do it anyway you will learn so much more, find it for your self it you can make a standard joule thief you can do the same with a transformer , personally i don't think we have time for challenging the validity of finding but barely enough to to save our self, may that time be spent on testing .

Also anyone that made the joule thief ad 2 more wire of the same gauge around the toroid and put leds on them how long could it take to get it?

The crowd that say it cannot be done, never tried. stop preaching start living.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 30, 2008, 01:53:08 PM

@ Pirate88179 and others interested

:) I decided to risk running my Fuji AA board at a higher voltage. I ran it at 3 volts using two AA batteries in series. But only for 5 seconds at a time. The board was not damaged so the transformer is able to handle the higher voltage. I doubt that the transistor will survive longer runs though. The tube more than doubles in brightness. So, it is possible to get the tubes to light brighter by using 3 volts. To do this without frying transistor would require replacing the transistor with one having a good heat sink. I no longer can see well enough to do this, but someone else may wish to try.

EDIT: Draws 2.3 amps at 3 volts so should pick transistor able to handle 6 watts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: AbbaRue on December 30, 2008, 01:59:04 PM

@All
I was wondering if we could get more power out of a Darlington transistor setup, using Power Transistors.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darlington_transistor
One reason for using the smaller transistors is they have a higher hFE factor then power transistors.
But the Darlington setup will take care of this.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on December 30, 2008, 02:01:53 PM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on December 30, 2008, 03:02:46 AM
sure just solder in some wires, if you remove the little silver metal tab thing (i think its for the shutter) that will give you 2 holes to choose for ground. if you remove the diode that would give you a hole for the positive to the bulb as well. i just used alligator clips to test it out.

@Wilby
Excellent! Thank you!!! ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 30, 2008, 02:09:11 PM

@ AbbaRue

Darlington should work. Doesn't have to be a power transistor, just needs good heat sink.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: AbbaRue on December 30, 2008, 02:15:35 PM

I was thinking BIG. Maybe a 100 Watt Joule Thief. ;D
But even for smaller power units, no more fear of burning out the transistor while experimenting.
The tab type of transistors are much easier to heat sink as well.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on December 30, 2008, 02:21:49 PM

Quote from: AbbaRue on December 30, 2008, 01:59:04 PM
@All
I was wondering if we could get more power out of a Darlington transistor setup, using Power Transistors.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darlington_transistor
One reason for using the smaller transistors is they have a higher hFE factor then power transistors.
But the Darlington setup will take care of this.

Interesting. I have been taking parts from an old PC power supply. I've gotten a dozen transistors that seem to be a European BCE config and one or two that seem like they might be power transistors, but I don't know. They could be voltage regulators or something else of which I have no idea. I can post a picture of all of them if that would help. Maybe they could be used to try this idea.

Here is the datasheet for one of them: http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/fairchild/KA7905.pdf
It seems to have that Darlington setup inside. There is a schematic in the pdf.

I'm still trying to get my head around electrical terminology so bear with me. What is this designed to increase? Voltage? Amps? Something else ???

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 30, 2008, 02:25:52 PM

@ timmy1729

If you Google the part numbers you will usually find a data sheet.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on December 30, 2008, 02:32:25 PM

Quote from: xee2 on December 30, 2008, 02:25:52 PM
@ timmy1729

If you Google the part numbers you will usually find a data sheet.

I just edited my post as you were writing. ;D
Thanks for the hint, though. :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on December 30, 2008, 02:39:22 PM

@All
Has anyone tried any of the improvement configurations for the original JT that you can find online? I've seen one that simply adds a diode between the transistor collector and the LED positive and also adds a capacitor between the legs of the LED. Anyone get any improvement through simple things like this?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 30, 2008, 03:46:04 PM

@ timmy1729

Have you read all of posts? That is what many of them are about.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 30, 2008, 04:57:59 PM

Bedini circuit can be used for the Jt i am sure it would work better and recharge a battery and light a led.But really important making the most of the battery.I will post most of the picture soon! Party tomorrow friend with cam :).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on December 30, 2008, 05:23:07 PM

Quote from: xee2 on December 30, 2008, 03:46:04 PM
@ timmy1729

Have you read all of posts? That is what many of them are about.

I guessed I missed where that was discussed.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 30, 2008, 05:27:41 PM

OK Y'all. I just illuminated 400 LEDs!!!!! Yes, single AA battery on the Fuji AA modified board. Again, some of the photos are blurry even though I used a tripod the last 2 photo sessions. This digital camera has a heck of a zoom (optical) which is why I use it for work but my video camera has tons better features for low light conditions.

I am really enjoying the color organ I made so I decided to leave the tree up with the 300 leds on it and I just plugged in the last 100 on the end when I hooked them all up in parallel. Not as bright as 300, of course, but still, not bad, not bad at all considering the power source. This is still the original battery which by now with all of my other experiments and showing to friends and family many times, has probably a little over 4 hours running time on it.

Now I am tempted to go for 500 but....I probably won't. I got the second to the last box of leds on special.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 30, 2008, 05:31:21 PM

This should show all of my new jumper wires I made yesterday which were employed to make this light up. If any one wants a photo from a different angle, let me know and I'll see what I can do.

That's 400 LEDs folks, single AA battery. (I keep repeating this for those that might begin reading the topic here, well, and also because I still can't believe it.

BIll

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 30, 2008, 06:09:24 PM

@ Pirate88179

Wow. That is impressive. You might want to record the voltage and current out of the Fuji board when driving the 400 LEDs. On my little F4T5 tube with AAA battery I am getting about 150 VAC and about 1.6 ma AC. These would only be accurate if the output was a pure sine wave (which it is not) but they give some ideal of the output power. If they are assume to be correct, then I am getting about 0.24 watts out with about 0.54 watts in which is about 44% efficiency. That is a really good efficiency for a cheap voltage multiplier.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 30, 2008, 06:24:44 PM

Hi everyone,

I am writing from beautiful blue bottle cafe on my sweet xo computer. This has been an amazing week for broken things.

last might I was unable to shut my computer off amd today it is on its way to be fixed.

I sure am glad I got this xo to play with. I sure didn't think I'd be using it for real. Good thing I remember my password.

Anyway, I will bbs,well, ( on n off) until my real computer returns home.

The keys on this xo are made for 5 yearold's hands. :)

Have fun.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 30, 2008, 09:35:26 PM

@ xee2:

Thank you. I will try to measure the best I can and see what it says. I agree it won't be totally accurate but at least it might be good for comparison purposes.

@ Jeanna:

Sorry to hear about your computer. They are great tools but when they don't work, they can be a pain. I can usually fix my own problems but, I also have folks that know a lot more than me and I use them when needed to keep running.

@ All:

I have received some negative feedback from some friends that I sent some pics to. They say that I am just plugging the LED lights into the wall and taking pictures. (yeah, some friends right?) So, I took these all from the same position using a tripod and hopefully, you can see the Fuji AA circuit hanging in the tree near the upper left on a close-up. (The yellow battery) Then, you can see the wires that I used to make the parallel connections to the board. I used the flash in some and the others I did not. This should answer any questions about being plugged in. It speaks well of the OU community that none of these questions came from here.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 30, 2008, 09:39:11 PM

Here is another. Again, all taken from the same tripod location. Does anyone think I should go for 500?

I think this circuit is more efficient as the load increases. I will try to test power usage and see how many watts are going in, and coming out. Have an early case in the a.m. Happy New Year everyone!!!!!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on December 31, 2008, 02:16:14 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 30, 2008, 09:39:11 PM
Here is another. Again, all taken from the same tripod location. Does anyone think I should go for 500?

I think this circuit is more efficient as the load increases. I will try to test power usage and see how many watts are going in, and coming out. Have an early case in the a.m. Happy New Year everyone!!!!!

Bill

Go for it!

@All
I'm not able to get a string of LED's or a tube light right now. What can I test out my camera circuit on and not fry?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 31, 2008, 02:27:28 AM

a neon would work well. you might be able to scavenge one from an old surge strip, some have neons in the light up power/toggle switch.

the kodak max circuit seems a little fussy when trying to light my 8W fluoro, but it lights a neon no problem. i have no led christmas lights to try.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 31, 2008, 02:46:11 AM

@ timmy1729

You can put a single LED in place of the tube and it should light. At least that works for me.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 31, 2008, 08:54:52 AM

here is the pic of my coil and my diode i spoke of earlyer ;D

i will not blow any more fets!!!

ist!

the rateing on the diode is 600v 220a continous x2 ;) and can peek much higher .... so each one can handle HUGE POWER.... CLOSE TO 120 000 W

lets do the math 600v x220a = 132 000 w x 2 :o

i guess that means...... 264 kw :o :o :o :o

if i get 3 more diodes... that would mean i could have a 1mw unit ;D

hummmmmm...... ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: maw2432 on December 31, 2008, 09:40:30 AM

@Pirate

Wow, Bill - way to go. Just think of all that wire that AA Fuji circuit had to go thru to light these 400 LED's. I would think if they were all placed close to each other on a circuit board you could light 500 with no problem. I am really amazed.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 31, 2008, 10:31:59 AM

@ maw2432:

Thanks! So am I. (amazed) To hook up all 4 strings of 100 leds each in parallel, I had to use 8 test leads of various lengths. One thing I do not understand (well, there are many things I don't understand) is why polarity does not matter with these diodes? I can hook up the power leads from the Fuji board either way and it still works. Is this because we converted to ac? I guess that would explain it.

I agree. If we had a large enough proto board, I would bet 500 would light up. Plus, I believe it was xee2 (I can't go back and check while posting) that said he ran his Fuji AA board at 3 volts input. With that power I would bet 500 would light up just fine.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 31, 2008, 10:46:20 AM

Quote from: AbbaRue on December 30, 2008, 01:59:04 PM
@All
I was wondering if we could get more power out of a Darlington transistor setup, using Power Transistors.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darlington_transistor
One reason for using the smaller transistors is they have a higher hFE factor then power transistors.
But the Darlington setup will take care of this.

What transistors can we use to make up this pair? Would we benefit any from making up the other pair mentioned in the link you posted? (PNP and NPN) As xee2 suggested, it would not be too hard to replace our little transistor on the Fuji board with something else a little more robust (and heat sinkable) and whilre we are doing that, maybe we should try the Darlington Pair approach as well? I can see it now. I need a bunch more of the AA boards.

@ All:

Since there is really not much left on my Fuji board as far as components go, would it not be possible and probably better to just copy the transformer, transistors, etc and rebuild on a proto board? This would make it easier to test different transistors including the above mentioned Darlington Pair configuration. I would have to figure which pins are being used on the little transformer and how to hook it up but, once we did this, we could find the most efficient combination and then really see what it can do. If we found a set-up we liked that worked well, it would not be hard to make our own pc board for a permanent device since there are only a few components. What do you guys think?

Bill Happy New Year!!!!!!!!!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 31, 2008, 11:04:38 AM

Quote from: jeanna on December 28, 2008, 07:53:11 PM
Here is the visual difference from the outside of the camera. THE BOX IS THE SAME FOR BOTH!. I moved---sorry for the fuzz.

The AA has a push button and is a smooth rubberish button you hold for 1 flash or lift up the door for continuous flash.
The AAA has a green button with 4 bumps that you slide up into position for flash.

I hope this uploads.

jeanna

Wow, I had to go back about 12 pages to find Jeanna's post. I wanted to repost this because it is important for those of us that are going out to seek "FREE" Fuji's from the photo places. If they say we can look through their barrel, or if they have a bunch and ask which ones we want, Jeanna has come up with a quick way of identifying what is inside by looking at the push button. I think this is important enough to repost here now that I went back to find it.

Thank you Jeanna, this will save a lot of us a lot of frustration from bringing home the "wrong" cameras.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 31, 2008, 11:52:03 AM

@ Pirate88179

I only ran Fuji AA board for 5 seconds at a time with 3 volts because I was afraid the transistor might melt if I ran any longer. To use 3 volts I think that the 220 ohm resistor will need to be increased and the transistor will have to have a heat sink. But if seems like the transformer can handle the higher voltage (that is what I was checking).

It certainly would be easier to experiment on a proto-board. The only thing I think you need from the camera is the transformer. I think freezer's transformer pins may not be correct for the Fuji AA boards I am using. If you remove the transformer from the board you will need to confirm the pin out.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 31, 2008, 03:53:30 PM

@ xee2:

Yes, I agree with you. Also, I believe that with a little searching, we can find an OEM supplier of these transformers and probably buy a bag of them for maybe $5.00.

Yes, I remember what you said about the 5 seconds. I didn't mean to imply that one could just pop 3 volts into the board and it will be ok. (I hope no one tried that based upon my comment) I do remember you saying that the transformer seemed ok with it. Also, we need a transistor (or pair) that can handle 6 watts or so correct?

I am looking around online for a full size proto board. I only have a 3 x 5 inch one. I can most likely find a cheap one somewhere. I am not sure about that metal cased capacitor as far as its value. Mine does not have any readable markings on it. That is the only thing, other than the transformer, I may have to use from the board until we can figure out what it is. Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 31, 2008, 04:11:06 PM

yup bill, they light both ways cause it's ac. so you should be able to reverse the polarity on half your led strings to get the most out of what is coming out of the circuit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 31, 2008, 04:14:14 PM

I just ordered a large breadboard from electronics goldmine. And, as long as I had to pay the shipping fee, I ordered a .47 Farad 5.5v supercap to play with and two 265,000 MCD (not a typo) super, super bright white LEDs. Now I have to wait until this stuff gets here......I hate that part.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: markdansie on December 31, 2008, 07:43:59 PM

hi Bill,
I was wondering if you made any progress on measuring power in and power out yet.
Kind regards
Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 31, 2008, 08:01:21 PM

@ markdansie

Here are some tests into a resistor load.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 31, 2008, 08:01:25 PM

Not as of yet. I had two cases to work today, the first starting at 5:00 a.m.!! also, I am not so sure how to do this. I know others have posted to me on how to do this but, I get my meter probes next to this thing that has zapped me many, many times, and I get a little squeamish. I did try once and set my DMM to the max volts setting (not power) and I got an error message.

I have a few thoughts about this. I really want to measure the power when all 400 leds are hooked up, I think that would be the best test. From what I have seen, this thing puts out more and more as the load increases....to a point of course.

My first little 6" FL tube was really not all that bright...I mean it was on but I was not hopeful ( you can see the pics) that any larger tube would be any better, but they were. The 18" was brighter as was the 48" tube. the two 48" tubes were brighter still.

Now, as shown in the posted pics, 100 leds were too bright for their own good, 200 were very bright, 300 were also bright but 400 were not as bright as 300 so, I guess I was reaching the limits of this circuit.

I will try to get some power in/out readings because I think these circuits are more efficient than the numbers xee2 posted. I am not saying he is wrong by any means. (He knows more than I do about these circuits) I guess I am just going by a gut feeling that looks at all of those leds illuminated and then I look at that small AA battery. Maybe this is all standard transformer stuff I would know if I were more educated in electronics but, I have to say at this point that I have never seen anything like this before i got involved with these experiments here.

I would have thought that if circuits like this were readily available then, you and I could have purchased a 48" FL tube powered by a single AA to take camping with us. I have a camping light with a single 6" FL tube and it uses 6 D batteries and will only light for about an hour before the batteries go dead. so, maybe they didn't spend the money on this cheap little circuit? if they knew about it and did not, that was a bad business decision, even though this happens all the time.

So, long story short, I will test and get back to you.

Happy New Year!!!!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 31, 2008, 08:23:34 PM

HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE

May everyone's lights be bright in this and all coming years

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 31, 2008, 10:07:54 PM

Happy New Year Jeanna!!! And Happy new year to all on this topic! 2009 WILL be a good year for all of us.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on December 31, 2008, 11:06:09 PM

@Timmy1729
I went and had a look at the Fairchild web address you posted, the KA7905 in the TO220 is a fixed output voltage regulator, which is used in the negative rail of circuits. Its equilivent in Positave circuits would be KA7805

KA or LM denotes the manufacturer
The 79 denotes a negative device
The 78 denotes a positave device
The 05 denotes the set voltage OUT, it will only alow 5volts out, you could put 12v DC into it, but only 5volts comes out. (use a heatsink).

If you want to have a adjustable output with a knob to adj the voltage range from 2 - 28 volts, use a LM317 in a TO220 package.
I don't recommend you use this on your LED JT

Most PC power supplies use MOSFETS in their switchmode circuits, these are designed to switch voltages on and off rapidly and would not work with the JT.

@all
Darlington transistors
There are several avaliable BC517 or BD139 for starters.
Try the BC517 first, if it carnt handle the current, use a BD139 instead.
Read up on them here http://www.electronics-radio.com/articles/analogue_circuits/transistor/darlington-pair.php or here http://www.best-microcontroller-projects.com/schematic-symbols.html
or read the attatchments.

@bill
I love your photos of the extra LEDs on your last xmas tree posts, nice and steady, very clear and bright.
Wear a pair of surgical gloves, might stop some of the shocks :)
Well done and happy new year.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 01, 2009, 12:23:38 AM

@ Jim:

Thank you! Happy New Year to you also. Yes, the gloves might be a good idea for me since I do not seem to learn very quickly. Take care.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: markdansie on January 01, 2009, 12:42:11 AM

Thanks Xee2 and Bill for the info.
I am looking at using it for camping as well.
Thanks everyone for the ideas and effort...it has been a great holiday read.
Kind Regards
Mark Dansie
Aussie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 01, 2009, 01:55:24 AM

happy new years all!

i found a way to run these circuits (well the kk05a6 anyways) on 3V without changing resistors or anything. 3V @ 250mA. it runs cooler than with 1.5V and the bulb has good (relatively speaking) brightness. it has been running for a half an hour now.
i just got set up to take some pictures and turned my camera on to find out my batteries were low and it shut off, grrr.
back with some pictures when the bedini sg finishes charging batteries.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 01, 2009, 01:55:33 AM

@ Mark:

Happy New year!!!!

Yes, I think we can do some amazing things with these ideas. Jump in. We can use all the help we can get.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 01, 2009, 02:05:15 AM

@ WilbyInebriated

External current limiter, good idea. Happy New Year to all.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 01, 2009, 02:13:26 AM

Quote from: xee2 on January 01, 2009, 02:05:15 AM
@ WilbyInebriated

External current limiter, good idea. Happy New Year to all.

actually no but that would work. what i did was the 'tesla one wire trick' and then connected an alligator clip/cable to the unconnected end of the tube, the tube got brighter draw didn't increase much. so i then connected like 6 alligator clips/cables to make a 10' or line and it got much brighter, draw went up by 50mA. i tried it with a 10' length of 21 gauge magnet wire and didn't have the same effect in brightening the tube. if anyone can duplicate with a fuji or another circuit i would be interested to know what happens.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 01, 2009, 02:34:44 AM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on January 01, 2009, 02:13:26 AM
actually no but that would work. what i did was the 'tesla one wire trick' and then connected an alligator clip/cable to the unconnected end of the tube, the tube got brighter draw didn't increase much. so i then connected like 6 alligator clips/cables to make a 10' or line and it got much brighter, draw went up by 50mA. i tried it with a 10' length of 21 gauge magnet wire and didn't have the same effect in brightening the tube. if anyone can duplicate with a fuji or another circuit i would be interested to know what happens.

I will probably need more information to replicate what you are talking about. I will give it a go with the Fuji AA board modified circuit. So, you are recharging your bats with the Bedini? Good for you! I have heard that this will recharge bats that are "dead" and no longer rechargeable.

Please give me some more info on what you are doing and I will try to replicate it with my Fuji circuit.

Happy New year!!!!!!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 01, 2009, 02:48:55 AM

first time for these energizer lithiums on the bedini.
ok on your fuji circuit only hook up the high voltage lead to one end of the fluoro tube.
do not connect the other end of fluoro tube to circuit ground. it should light the tube with a 3V input. 'tesla one wire trick'.
now connect 4 or 5 of these http://www.bgmicro.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=12195
together to form a long 'alligator string' and connect this string to the end of the tube that would normally be connected to ground. do not connect this 'alligator string' to anything other than the fluoro tube, it should be trailing off like a tail or antenna.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 01, 2009, 03:07:14 AM

@ Wilby:

OK, I will try that. But, I have already tried the "one wire trick" (Tesla) using the 48" tube and the 300 leds on my tree. The tube lit up, but, only if my hand was near the battery on the board. The same with the 300 leds, they lit up but only with some part of my body near the battery. I did not try it with no hands....and an "antenna" lead trailing off. So, I can try this and report back. Happy New Year!!!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 01, 2009, 03:17:54 AM

i just tried it with a 2 foot 20 watt tube and it did not seem to brighten it as much as it did on the 8 watt tube.
batteries are done charging so here are some pics of the 8 watt tube.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jonnydavro on January 01, 2009, 06:01:30 AM

Hi wilby,have you tried connecting the trailing end off your alligator chain to an earth ground?I had good results using an earth ground with single wire illumination using a plasma ball covered in tin foil.I wonder if it will increase the brightness for you? Regards jonnydavro.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 01, 2009, 08:02:38 AM

@ WilbyInebriated

:( On Fuji AA board the current drain from battery is about the same with or without load connected so this does not reduce current for Fuji board with my modifications. Maybe it will work for someone else.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on January 01, 2009, 11:43:51 AM

Quote from Bill:

" Wow, I had to go back about 12 pages to find Jeanna's post "

Bill...right next to the 'reply' button is the 'notify' button...hit that button and whenever there is a new post on that thread, you are notified via email.

All you have to do then, is to click on the link emailed to you and it takes you the thread...directly to the new post.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 01, 2009, 01:53:51 PM

@johnny
i don't have a good 'earth' ground as i am on the second floor. i did use the mains ground and that worked well.

@xee
thanks for trying it out with the fuji for me. no change tween loaded and unloaded huh? strange, my kk05a6 circuit draws less than 180mA @3v input with no load, with load it goes over 500mA.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 01, 2009, 03:27:14 PM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on December 30, 2008, 03:02:46 AM
sure just solder in some wires, if you remove the little silver metal tab thing (i think its for the shutter) that will give you 2 holes to choose for ground. if you remove the diode that would give you a hole for the positive to the bulb as well. i just used alligator clips to test it out.

I think I did something wrong on here because it won't even light a high-brightness LED fully. Also, if I use alligator clips to connect the battery, nothing happens if I clip either positive or negative to the battery connectors on the board. If I clip one of them and move the other clip around on the terminal, it will light, but not very bright. I am thinking I might just make a trip to Walgreens and get the photo guy to give me some fujis. The guy I talked to last week said that they always have a box of used ones that just get thrown away and I just need to ask the manager if it is cool to get a few of them.

Also, since the thread has been discussing transformers, I took some pics of the power supply that I've been grabbing parts from and wanted to see if anybody can tell me what can be done with these transformers. It doesn't necessarily have to be using the camera board. Maybe some JT application to really step up voltage? ;D

Sorry for the poor quality images. They're from my phone and I don't have the steadiest hands in the world.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 01, 2009, 04:17:31 PM

@Timmy1729

There is how i did it with a transformer the transformer needs at least 3 coil use the 2 lowest ohm coil for joule thief circuit.I will post picture soon.

You need to be sure if the transistor you are using is a npn or pnp ,when you see it that it dose not work ,try reversing the battery and or the led.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 01, 2009, 04:40:31 PM

@Timmy1729

This link gives some good instructions on how to build a Joule thief.

http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.evilmadscientist.com/article.php/joulethief&sa=X&oi=revisions_result&resnum=2&ct=result&cd=1&usg=AFQjCNGhx6mr7i8F3HwhKPqShhd6aXzTJw

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 01, 2009, 04:56:26 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 01, 2009, 04:17:31 PM
@Timmy1729

There is how i did it with a transformer the transformer needs at least 3 coil use the 2 lowest ohm coil for joule thief circuit.I will post picture soon.

You need to be sure if the transistor you are using is a npn or pnp ,when you see it that it dose not work ,try reversing the battery and or the led.

I have no idea how many coils those have. I don't really want to take them apart so I'll see if I can find anything on them online somewhere. Thanks!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 01, 2009, 05:00:59 PM

Quote from: xee2 on January 01, 2009, 04:40:31 PM
@Timmy1729

This link gives some good instructions on how to build a Joule thief.

http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.evilmadscientist.com/article.php/joulethief&sa=X&oi=revisions_result&resnum=2&ct=result&cd=1&usg=AFQjCNGhx6mr7i8F3HwhKPqShhd6aXzTJw

@Xee2
Thanks for the link!
I've already built two JT's that work wonderfully. I was just asking if one of those transformers I have can be used to make a :o - JT. Or were you replying to an earlier post of mine?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 01, 2009, 05:22:55 PM

@Timmy1729

You take the time to remove the transformer from the pcboard and then check all the connection with the multimeter and write down your findings, usually set the meter on 200 ohms if you don't see anything it means there is no connections between them, find all the ones that show reading on the multimeter note the the location and resistance on paper this will be the map of your transformer.
But usually 2 connector on bottom of transformer indicates 1 coil,4 = 2 coil , 6 =3coils, etc.Only then you will know if the transformer will fit the built.Pretty much any type of transformer (ferrite or not)will work if it dose not its not connected properly.Also if you get the led to light in the regular jt way it means it is well connected but the real power comes from the last coil the highest ohm rated and still not connected to anything if you connect the multimeter to it you will only get ac voltage It is the reason you need to rectify it with a diode bridge then you will have dc.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 01, 2009, 05:56:25 PM

@Timmy1729

Finding a cheap transformer that will work well is not easy. That is why we are interested in the Fuji transformer. Since you have made a Joule thief before, you should be able to make one using the two lowest resistance coils on a 3 coil transformer like Mk1 did. The Joule thief does not have to have a bifilar transformer. Then hopefully you will get some higher AC voltage out of the other coil on the transformer. But it probably will not be as high a voltage as with the Fuji transformer unless you use a higher battery voltage.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 01, 2009, 06:59:37 PM

@Timmy1729

You don't need to take the actual transformer apart, but you need to remove it from the pc board it is soldered on .
the part aren't hard to find or costly,Pick them from any electronic equipment,old radio,stereo old pc any thing you can get your and on , do not buy anything nothing is gained from that.The power you will get out of it will vary widely depending on the transformer.IF the power is enough for fluorescent tube most likely not, but you still get a lots more useful voltage then 1.5 volts i did get a neon working at about 80 to 100 volts dc.
Fluorescent need more voltage then that.But those high voltage are not very useful except if step down or used on fluorescent or led application.
The fuji circuit is really good,but i don't really trust it for elongated period of time since its not built for constant work or longevity , Its built to be put in the trash and used for minimal period of time.

I find the most interesting parts out of recycling my self , parts i would not be using otherwise and learn about other parts.

The fuji showed us the potential of transformers now we need to look for ways of getting more current since voltage is not a problem .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: HeairBear on January 01, 2009, 07:39:13 PM

Why work on the current? Isn't the idea not to use current? Wouldn't it make more sense to design devices that use much less current? Current is what you are paying for and wasting as heat.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 01, 2009, 07:50:00 PM

@HeairBear

Current yes use less produce more out .More out then in .We need to work on both ends of circuit reducing current in and amplifying the current production out of the system.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 01, 2009, 08:07:04 PM

Hi everybody, I've been wondering if this is could be ac and if it is, how it could be lighting leds. i don't think I answered that Q but this interesting.

I just hooked up that string of LEDs to my camera ckt. then I turned the plug around. The brightness changed noticeably.

The plug doesn't have the obvious polarity that some plugs have so, I can't say what the polarity is.

Bill - or anyone else glowing a string of leds-, would you try this, please on one of your strings?

Hmmm,
so is this partially AC after all?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: HeairBear on January 01, 2009, 08:07:21 PM

@MK1

Getting more current out than in would be a nice easy button for today's existing technology, but, In my opinion current is more of a hindrance than a useful resource. Bedini, Stiffler, Meyer, Tesla, and so on show little or no current with some devices yet they produce a usable energy other than current capable of doing work. And of course, the question one must always ask... When a device is producing more current than it is taking in, where is it coming from? You can not get something for nothing.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 01, 2009, 08:18:59 PM

@MK1
Mk you posted joulet2.jpg, 1 page back showing a circuit.
If I wind a torid using 20turns bifilar and the other coil (the output) going to a rectifier, how many turns would you recommend for the secondary?

Should I wind the secondary coil on the torid first, or last?

Should I use IN4004 diodes or IN4007 diodes for the bridge?

@all
Here is my 1st JT I made a while back, I have it connected to a single 1.2v Nife battery, I connected my Digitech QT-2202 frequency counter to the transister, it shows the JT running at 236.87 KHz.
Function button = 10MHz
Gate Time = 0.1s

I noticed the LED dimmed in brightness when I connected the other clip to complete the crt.

0181.jpg = JT on Nife 1.2v cell
0182.jpg = JT connected to Frequency Counter showing 236.87 KHz second

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 01, 2009, 08:22:30 PM

@HeairBear

Yes about tesla technologies high voltage spike is really useful because it is very easy to pickup by other coils, like wire less power it dosen't mater how many pickup coil you have you will get voltage picked up , those additional coils can be added in parallel for more current and series for voltage.Since high freq pulse travels well trough the air ,think of how many coil you can use. But cpu chips use more and more current and lower every year and would be nice to have, most electronic today don't use much current except computers also more current in needed to run motor generator.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 01, 2009, 08:26:22 PM

Quote from: jeanna on January 01, 2009, 08:07:04 PM
Hi everybody, I've been wondering if this is could be ac and if it is, how it could be lighting leds. i don't think I answered that Q but this interesting.

I just hooked up that string of LEDs to my camera ckt. then I turned the plug around. The brightness changed noticeably.

The plug doesn't have the obvious polarity that some plugs have so, I can't say what the polarity is.

Bill - or anyone else glowing a string of leds-, would you try this, please on one of your strings?

Hmmm,
so is this partially AC after all?

jeanna

if your connection is before the diode then yes it's ac, if your connection is after the diode then it's rectified to dc. that's a rough statement of course. ac can light leds, see this post http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg145832#msg145832 for a couple simple ac led circuits. always use proper precautions with mains voltage.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 01, 2009, 08:44:20 PM

@electricme

Ok it works just as well on toroid but you are limited by space,so far under or over secondary dose not show any difference in output the type of windings and location on toroid will show many different result from good to bad, Playing with the size of the wire permits more windings sine the difference in resistance is not really noticeable but numbers of turn will increase output . I would recommended about 2 to 4 time more then primary. For this part you can experiment with tesla pat 381.970 it permits using 2 joule thief on a single toroid amplifying output when used in a pull push circuit on that one i got from 2 times 2 primary of 12 turn(2 jt ) version and 2 secondary of 48 turns over a coil of each joule thief 2 times(gauge 22) over 30 volts per secondary(so 2 time 30 volt parallel or 1 times series 60 volts).I hope it helps , if not working revise coil polarity i posted a drawing on the early pages of this tread on this forum on the primary windings and circuit i have used for this results.

Using 2n4007 will permit those high voltage spikes to pass thou up to 1000 volts and collect the emf from circuit . The secondary is powered by induction and radiant energy but the switching on and of of primary induce the emf, for the best result the would have to have the squares wave possible the joule thief could be improved on that part .If you put 9 volt dc in a coil and switch on and off quickly you will see spikes up to thousands of volts .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 01, 2009, 08:45:10 PM

@all
I just thought what would happen if I switched the Green LED on instead of the RED LED.

The Frequency Counter showed me a drop from 236.87 MHz for RED LED to 198.00 MHz using the Green LED.
A diference of 38.87 MHz

The oscillope waveforms alter only very slightly, there is almost nothing between them

0184.jpg = closest I can get at .1uS (micro second)
0184.jpg = at 0.5 uS
0186.jpg = at 1.0 uS
You get the idea now.

0190.jpg shows the Green LED ON the connections of the Frequency meter and the Cro.
0191.jpg shows the frequency of 198.00 MHz on the digital display.

I havent a Orange LED handy to compare but I will look out for one in the next couple of days.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 01, 2009, 09:00:36 PM

I don't know if I can do this. I will try to upload 2 pics from this xo sugar. I just took them and got lost with the identities . If this is right, you should see different brightnesses and you should also be able to see that the plug tines are connected differently.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 01, 2009, 09:32:13 PM

@ jeanna,
Do you still have that patient search web address, the free one, please? I want to take a look at 381.970 that MK1 suggested. TA

@MK1 do you mean wind the torid like this and then connect a bridge diode to each out put winding, then parallel them up?

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 01, 2009, 09:36:19 PM

@ Jeanna:

I have tested before and it makes no difference on polarity with my Fuji board. I can hook up either lead to either blade on the male plug. (Yours are like mine, no difference in size on the blades) As I posted before when doing the single wire tests, then it did make a difference on which lead I used and where it was hooked up on the plug. So, since the LEDs are diodes, I am guessing that I have ac on the output. The light level is exactly the same using either wire. I hope this helps. Nice photos. How many leds are on that string? It is amazing that you are not frying them.

@ Jim:

Great work with the scope! Makes me wish I had one AND knew how to use it. I am still trying to figure out a way to power my He Ne laser tubes with this circuit. It may not be possible. I will have to google the serial numbers and see what the power/volt requirements are for these.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 01, 2009, 09:43:13 PM

@wilby,
I love what you did with incandescent bulbs. I plan to mod any I come across just the way you suggested.

These strings of leds are made without resistor or cap. The voltage is close enough when you divide the 120v by 35 lights to the tolerance of the white led.

I connected the ckt without the diode because it broke. I attached the pos lead to the - stripe side of the crushed diode.

I am wondering if literally shorting that spot which is I think what bill did, would be the thing that stops the flicker of the fluros. (or did I do that too? I don't remember)

Thank you, bye the way, for all your helpful comments.

@MK1 and Jim,

You guys shure have the good testing equipment. I approve of your shopping style, too. I haven't been so lucky.

@Jim,

Are we seing a complex ac wave form? What is it you are showing on your screen?

@all,

I did blow one led in one direction and 2 leds in the other. I mean... With the polarity one way - I assume the really bright way, I blew 2 leds. but when I switch plug polarity, only one led is dark. mmm crazy.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 01, 2009, 09:53:46 PM

Quote from: electricme on January 01, 2009, 09:32:13 PM
@ jeanna,
Do you still have that patient search web address, the free one, please? I want to take a look at 381.970 that MK1 suggested. TA

jim

Jim,

it is http://www.pat2pdf.org (http://www.pat2pdf.org). but I suggest you put those words into google for the exact spelling if this turns out wrong.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 01, 2009, 10:08:13 PM

@electricme

If you use a single joule thief it would be best to go all the way around one time for the 2 jt coil,and secondary (output coil longer more resistance)as many coils as you can but don't go all the way around over the beginning of the coil it will cancel the output.If you want to make a dual joule thief on one toroid for pull push (for more voltage)you need do devise the toroid in 4 parts 90 degree apart using opposing coil (180 degree) for each joule thief and then winding each secondary over half of the toroid so you get the up and down push from half of each joule thief, this works with one npn and one pnp for pull push operations.

But your drawing should work if jt primes have enough turns. The rectifier is ok schottky diodes are best.

The drawing is for the 2 joule thief pull push mode. So 4 wire for 2 joule thief and add 2 or 4 secondary over half of it.

http://www.google.com/patents pat to pdf seems down at the moment.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 01, 2009, 10:21:50 PM

Here it is.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 01, 2009, 10:22:42 PM

I got it http://keelynet.com/tesla/

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 01, 2009, 10:36:22 PM

@electricme

I just tough of it if you make a single jt toroid the best way would be one coil of jt on halt of toroid and second on second half that would give you the possibility of going all the way around more than one time .

The tesla patent is a step down transformer but its said that the primary and secondary can be switch around for step up function, since the emf is usually in the minus range the secondary will see it as a plus spike.

the input of coil is the positive side and output the negative side, this plays a big role.

My best testing equipment is the brain , multimeter dose help

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 02, 2009, 04:00:43 AM

@ Jim:

I am impressed with your testing equipment and I believe it will come in handy before all this is over. I do not have the ability to test such as you have. I think we have some interesting things to look into here. We all know that you can take a transformer and up the volts....this is well known. What I don't get from my results is that an led takes about 300 mA's to light up. (and around 3.5 vdc) So, how can I get 400 leds to light up from a single AA battery? Yes, we can up the 1.5 vdc to whatever we need. But, what about the amps? (mA's?) I have not done the math but I believe that there are more mA's needed to light 400 leds than are usually available in a AA battery. What do you think?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 02, 2009, 04:06:16 AM

you dont want to know what i think ..... lol ;)

i love the progress everyone is makeing :)

8)

you are transmitting .... and you are recieving ;D

ist!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 02, 2009, 05:27:29 AM

@All

I made these changes from Jesus' schematic with the exception being that I'm using one LED instead of multiples. Before I added the diode and cap, I was getting 1.4vdc across the LED. Just adding the diode and cap, I am getting 3.0vdc and some change; all from a single AA battery. :o Also, I am getting 115 mA with this as well. Just this simple change gave me more than double my original output. I am soooooooo going to try this out on my Earth battery this morning.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 02, 2009, 09:49:54 AM

I haven't been posting much here but I have been following it very carefully. I have also made a couple of jt's out of some old flash units I had laying around. I also want to try to make one on a little larger scale. I'm not sure if it will work but I will let you all know when I start on this.

The reason I am now posting is to kindly request IS to stop posting his crap on this thread. If you have something to add or help please do. To post that people are transmitting and receiving is crap and only serves to confuse some of the posters. It is a joule thief not a transmitter. Please keep these kind of comments or riddles to yourself.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 02, 2009, 12:40:45 PM

@timmy

Always check ac en dc reading this will help you understand faster, i am pretty sure you ad 1.5 vac before adding the diode.Also connecting led in series lets you how powerful your unite really has.In parallel you don' need more then 3 volt to light multiples.

@all

I have made some jt with germanium transistor and got switching at lower amps, therefore decreasing current taken from battery on each cycle
adding longevity to battery.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: amigo on January 02, 2009, 01:00:27 PM

Quote from: electricme on January 01, 2009, 08:45:10 PM
@all
I just thought what would happen if I switched the Green LED on instead of the RED LED.

The Frequency Counter showed me a drop from 236.87 MHz for RED LED to 198.00 MHz using the Green LED.
A diference of 38.87 MHz

The oscillope waveforms alter only very slightly, there is almost nothing between them

0184.jpg = closest I can get at .1uS (micro second)
0184.jpg = at 0.5 uS
0186.jpg = at 1.0 uS
You get the idea now.

0190.jpg shows the Green LED ON the connections of the Frequency meter and the Cro.
0191.jpg shows the frequency of 198.00 MHz on the digital display.

I havent a Orange LED handy to compare but I will look out for one in the next couple of days.

@electricme

I have not been following this thread religiously but I do check in from time to time...

I'm confused about these measurements, are you sure you are seeing MHz ?!

Back in the days when I played with the Jule Thief I could not get it going higher than maybe few hundred KHz, how is it possible that yours run at MHz level without the use of VHF transistors?

@all

Someone mentioned milliamp gains and currents in general, let's not forget that you are impulse running LEDs here which are semi-conductors and behave differently than normal light bulbs. Why doesnt' someone try to drive incandescent bulbs - find some that are of similar voltage rating to LEDs (3v) and see what happens? :P

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 02, 2009, 01:16:32 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 02, 2009, 12:40:45 PM
@timmy

Always check ac en dc reading this will help you understand faster, i am pretty sure you ad 1.5 vac before adding the diode.Also connecting led in series lets you how powerful your unite really has.In parallel you don' need more then 3 volt to light multiples.

@all

I have made some jt with germanium transistor and got switching at lower amps, therefore decreasing current taken from battery on each cycle
adding longevity to battery.

@MK1

I haven't tried multiples simply because I wanted to get one working first ;D
I read somewhere that lighting LED's in parallel is a bad idea, but that taking strings of LED's in series and lighting those series in parallel is ok. Any idea if that is true or not?

I'll have to see if I can find some germanium transistors around here. This town sucks when it comes to finding parts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 02, 2009, 01:19:46 PM

Incandescent bulb will not light on any circuit on this tread fuji or not there is not enough amp to do so and the bulbs need 120 volts bipolar .
The circuits now experimented are are not working in that mater they are making high voltage spikes useful for fluorescent lighting led work well with it as well, my main interest is in how fast they charge caps with those high voltage spikes then you make a bigger on running from the caps going higher and bigger each time.Then making it run from aluminum and pennies voltaic pile, or recycle beer cans battery.
earth battery could work but would need at least 400 mili amps so you would need a huge number of them in parallel to get that.

Also my explanation of high voltage neg spike(simple experiment should help you understand) as you put current in a coil it excites the copper
into moving electricity but when you stop the voltage abruptly it creates a vacuum effect copper rushes back (in vortex like fashion)in place with greater strength and speed then needed to move it in the first place, to make a truly efficient this needs to be part of equation.

@timmy
i use led as my eyes to see potential on coil winding to show me what the meter cant see.And if you really want a flash light you got the best,
that being said make sure the the 2 coil lead that go to battery positive pole are wound in opposite directions.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 02, 2009, 01:29:59 PM

Quote from: MrMag on January 02, 2009, 09:49:54 AM
I haven't been posting much here but I have been following it very carefully. I have also made a couple of jt's out of some old flash units I had laying around. I also want to try to make one on a little larger scale. I'm not sure if it will work but I will let you all know when I start on this.

The reason I am now posting is to kindly request IS to stop posting his crap on this thread. If you have something to add or help please do. To post that people are transmitting and receiving is crap and only serves to confuse some of the posters. It is a joule thief not a transmitter. Please keep these kind of comments or riddles to yourself.

@MrMag

I may not understand everything IST posts either, but he is doing some cool stuff on his own and I am grateful for whatever he decides to share no matter how he decides to share it. I'm guessing he's a fan of the Socratic method or maybe he wants people to try and think to understand things that he had to work out for himself. His posts are just his personality. Everyone is different. I am grateful that he is generous in sharing his experiments at all. If you don't want to read his posts then scroll past them. Many of us on here appreciate whatever useful information we can get from his posts.

@IST
I, for one, appreciate your posts and I hope you continue to share with us all.Thank you for sharing, my friend 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 02, 2009, 01:40:26 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 02, 2009, 01:19:46 PM
Incandescent bulb will not light on any circuit on this tread fuji or not there is not enough amp to do so and the bulbs need 120 volts bipolar .
The circuits now experimented are are not working in that mater they are making high voltage spikes useful for fluorescent lighting led work well with it as well, my main interest is in how fast they charge caps with those high voltage spikes then you make a bigger on running from the caps going higher and bigger each time.Then making it run from aluminum and pennies voltaic pile, or recycle beer cans battery.
earth battery could work but would need at least 400 mili amps so you would need a huge number of them in parallel to get that.

@timmy
i use led as my eyes to see potential on coil winding to show me what the meter cant see.And if you really want a flash light you got the best,
that being said make sure the the 2 coil lead that go to battery positive pole are wound in opposite directions.

I checked on another JT and only got 0.01 - 0.16v ac going across the LED, which is the same place I measured and got 3.0 v dc on my improved one.The old one only gets 1.3 - 1.4v dc across the LED. Oh, on the old one, I am getting 165 mA. So, I am guessing that the double in voltage is at a cost of a drop in mA?

So, should I NOT wind the coil using both wires at the same time? Should I wind them separately in two layers, one winding clockwise and the other counter-clockwise?
???

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 02, 2009, 01:41:07 PM

Quote from: MrMag on January 02, 2009, 09:49:54 AM
I haven't been posting much here but I have been following it very carefully. I have also made a couple of jt's out of some old flash units I had laying around. I also want to try to make one on a little larger scale. I'm not sure if it will work but I will let you all know when I start on this.

The reason I am now posting is to kindly request IS to stop posting his crap on this thread. If you have something to add or help please do. To post that people are transmitting and receiving is crap and only serves to confuse some of the posters. It is a joule thief not a transmitter. Please keep these kind of comments or riddles to yourself.

im not starting anything with you mr maggs but

your own words clearly show you have almost NO understanding HOW this WORKS....

lol

lay off i can prove almost EVERYTHING I SAID

but it is a puzzel and your still lost ..... lol

i post advandced stuff for those that are ready for it ......

i post simple stuff for beginners....

yes i have this down .....

i can PROVE IT ALL IN TESLAS WORDS.... ;D

do you persue the TRUTH or are you looking for more LIES?!?!?!?!

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 02, 2009, 01:57:33 PM

@timmy

The first think is your transistor pnp or npn, second to make it as simple as possible to start, making it with 2 wire at a time is easier , but you really have to make sure that on the side that 2 coil go to the positive bat they are wound in opposite direction conter and clockwise.Then make other connection, test with led flip led , check results if noting flip battery(pnp,npn issue) Timmy one end of the coil in clock wise
the other is not.

I test with led because the multimeter cant show me the potential in the circuit unless rectified.

@IS
I get you you are the one amplifying the vacuum effect with neo magnet ? if yes big fan. But how to use it ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 02, 2009, 02:10:14 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 02, 2009, 01:57:33 PM
@timmy

The first think is your transistor pnp or npn, second to make it as simple as possible to start, making it with 2 wire at a time is easier , but you really have to make sure that on the side that 2 coil go to the positive bat they are wound in opposite direction conter and clockwise.Then make other connection, test with led flip led , check results if noting flip battery(pnp,npn issue) Timmy one end of the coil in clock wise
the other is not.

I test with led because the multimeter cant show me the potential in the circuit unless rectified.

@IS
I get you you are the one amplifying the vacuum effect witch neo magnet ? if yes big fan. But how to use it ?

lol ;)

that might have been me lol :)

cheers

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 02, 2009, 02:48:04 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 02, 2009, 01:41:07 PM
im not starting anything with you mr maggs but

your own words clearly show you have almost NO understanding HOW this WORKS....

lol

lay off i can prove almost EVERYTHING I SAID

but it is a puzzel and your still lost ..... lol

i post advandced stuff for those that are ready for it ......

i post simple stuff for beginners....

yes i have this down .....

i can PROVE IT ALL IN TESLAS WORDS.... ;D

do you persue the TRUTH or are you looking for more LIES?!?!?!?!

ist!

OK IS, I will call you out on this one.

What I think is happening is that the transistor is pulsing on and off (Blocking oscillator) and the output is increased due to the spikes. This is my simple answer.

Now you can tell me how you think it works.
Tell me how you say it is a transmitter and receiver. I bet you can't.
Forget quoting Tesla or others. I want to hear it in your own words. You are always so cryptic and you never say anything.
I will be surprised if you can describe what you think is happening.

I will drop this since it is a great thread and I don't want to ruin it like every other thread that IS is on.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 02, 2009, 03:03:10 PM

@MrMag

I am not sure IS if is referring to transmitter and receiver energy tech but to transfer of knowledge , He found a thing that is easy and can be done without any transistor by hand, but transistor are a nice help,Tesla did this with motor and brushes. But IS in this tread to watch on people getting it or to get it himself is left to speculation.We see what we look for in life and are prone on inversion .I am not going to this by myself we all have a part to ad in this even if only criticism.

Yes IS is not giving enough to us to see weather or not he gets anything , but we all need cheerleaders .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 02, 2009, 04:33:52 PM

im sorry to all to cludder this thred ....

however it is all 1 in the same ;)

so mr maggs .... to where do you think your kick comes from ;D

it is recieved of course..... and your aa you transmitt with it .... ;D

yep well

its a puzzel keep it that way ;)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 02, 2009, 05:57:43 PM

@ All:

I just ordered 2 supercaps from digi-key. These are 2.7 volt 10F!! Yes, 10 F. They cost about $3.50 ea. I am spending too much money but this is going to be fun.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 02, 2009, 06:03:50 PM

HOW THE CIRCUIT WORKS

" The transformer is configured as a BLOCKING OSCILLATOR and the cycle starts by the transistor turning on via the base resistor.
This causes current to flow in the main winding. The other winding is called the feedback winding and is connected so that it produces a voltage to turn the transistor on MORE during this part of the cycle.
This winding should really be called a "feed-forward" winding as the signal it supplies to the transistor is a positive signal to increase the operation of the circuit.
This voltage allows a higher current to flow in the transistor and it keeps turning on until it is saturated.
At this point the magnetic flux produced by the main winding is a maximum but it is not expanding flux and thus it ceases to produce a voltage in the feedback winding. This causes less current to flow into the base of the transistor and the transistor turns off slightly.
The flux produced by the main winding is now called collapsing flux and it produces a voltage in the feedback winding of opposite polarity. This causes the transistor to turn off and this action occurs until it is completely off.
The magnetic flux continues to collapse and cuts the turns of the main winding to produce a very high voltage of opposite polarity.
However this voltage is prevented from rising to a high value by the presence of the LED and thus the energy produced by the collapsing magnetic flux is converted to light by the LED.
The circuit operates at approx 200kHz, depending on the value of the base resistor and physical dimensions of the transformer. "

that's how it works, as simple as that. no puzzle at all.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 02, 2009, 07:14:14 PM

@ Wilby:

Thanks, that is good information.

@ All:

In case any one else want to get some super caps: http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/90424-capacitor-ultra-400f-2-7v-radial-eshsr-0400c0-002r7.html

The above link takes you to digi-key and a 400 F Cap. At the bottom of that page are links to many other sizes and values.

It is interesting to note that you can buy a 5,000 F super cap on their site. I believe it costs a little over $4,000.00 but, I didn't even know you could get one this large. They have a good assortment of 1,5,10, 50, Farad caps at decent prices. I plan on buying some larger ones later when I can afford to. (Not the 5,000 F cap, too rich for me)

These caps seem to work like batteries. They do not just "dump" everything all at once. I have a small supercap I have used for over a year. I can instantly charge it up and it will light an led for over 2 hours on that one "flash" charge.

I feel like we can incorporate these into our JT circuits in some way. I have already used the supercaps by charging them with my earth battery.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 02, 2009, 07:54:58 PM

your feeling is correct bill, although i think if you want to stick with the boost circuitry you have been using, you need to mod it a bit to lower (buck) the supply (5v supercap) by placing it in series with the load and feed the 'extra' back to a smoothing cap

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 02, 2009, 08:05:26 PM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on January 02, 2009, 06:03:50 PM
HOW THE CIRCUIT WORKS

...
that's how it works, as simple as that. no puzzle at all.

It's no puzzle at all unless you are electrically challenged, like myself ;D
Thanks for the explanation. Now I have to find an electrical engineering dictionary so I can understand it LOL :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 02, 2009, 08:14:31 PM

@All

I went shopping this afternoon and got some silicon and zener diodes to experiment with some more JT improvements from http://wiki.waggy.org/dokuwiki/electronics/joulethief .

I also got a Darlington transistor to try out that idea posted earlier. I don't know what was planned for the darlington setup, but if someone wants to tell me what to do with it, I will test it out for them.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 02, 2009, 08:24:07 PM

@Timmy

Connect the transistor the same way you usually do , assuming that regularly you are using a 2n3904 npn if its a pnp transistor just reverse the battery that should do the trick , you may need to play with the resistance to make sure there is enough to make it switch, if at first nothing happen try a 9 volt battery to see what its doing .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 02, 2009, 08:40:19 PM

@timmy

The zener diode will limit the voltage coming out of it to the specs of the diode and dose stabilize the output but limits the voltage,I am not sure that is what you are looking for , i was thinking of using some my self but to limit the voltage to recharge a battery or feed back to the system .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 02, 2009, 09:07:19 PM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on January 02, 2009, 06:03:50 PM
HOW THE CIRCUIT WORKS

" The transformer is configured as a BLOCKING OSCILLATOR and the cycle starts by the transistor turning on via the base resistor.
This causes current to flow in the main winding. The other winding is called the feedback winding and is connected so that it produces a voltage to turn the transistor on MORE during this part of the cycle.
This winding should really be called a "feed-forward" winding as the signal it supplies to the transistor is a positive signal to increase the operation of the circuit.
This voltage allows a higher current to flow in the transistor and it keeps turning on until it is saturated.
At this point the magnetic flux produced by the main winding is a maximum but it is not expanding flux and thus it ceases to produce a voltage in the feedback winding. This causes less current to flow into the base of the transistor and the transistor turns off slightly.
The flux produced by the main winding is now called collapsing flux and it produces a voltage in the feedback winding of opposite polarity. This causes the transistor to turn off and this action occurs until it is completely off.
The magnetic flux continues to collapse and cuts the turns of the main winding to produce a very high voltage of opposite polarity.
However this voltage is prevented from rising to a high value by the presence of the LED and thus the energy produced by the collapsing magnetic flux is converted to light by the LED.
The circuit operates at approx 200kHz, depending on the value of the base resistor and physical dimensions of the transformer. "

that's how it works, as simple as that. no puzzle at all.

nope there is far more to it ;D

need a link .... ;)

check out my 6 freq controller thred ;D

ist...

when you all get it right you will scare the shit out of your selve if not get electurted in the process... BE WIZE....

it is this

BALANCED RYTHMIC INTERCHANGE for the millionth time .....

when you get it right you will discover speed does not matter ... keep the dam thing way out of resosnance!!!!!!! 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 02, 2009, 09:43:54 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 02, 2009, 09:07:19 PM
nope there is far more to it ;D

need a link .... ;)

check out my 6 freq controller thred ;D

ist...

when you all get it right you will scare the shit out of your selve if not get electurted in the process... BE WIZE....

it is this

BALANCED RYTHMIC INTERCHANGE for the millionth time .....

when you get it right you will discover speed does not matter ... keep the dam thing way out of resosnance!!!!!!! 8)

ist, i've told you a million times not to exaggerate ;)

i've read your thread. sorry, there is nothing of substance there, no circuit diagram, no pictures of circuit, no video showing operation of circuit, nothing, save some cryptic and enigmatic references to some puzzle that you claim to have solved but won't/can't demonstrate and we should just "figure it out" or "get it right". all of this is from you, the guy who didn't believe it when i lit a fluoro tube with an AA powered inverter circuit. in fact you didn't just not believe it, you called it a fake in not so many words. this behavior makes your 'advanced' knowledge extremely suspect. you can lay it all to rest by taking the time to actually post the components needed and each step taken or better yet, a circuit diagram for your 6 freq controller. if you want to contribute with substance, great, we are all for that. mumbling something in enigmatic, cryptic half english does no one any good and only serves to clutter this thread.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 02, 2009, 10:37:51 PM

@all
First of all this is going to be a long answer, as many posters have asked me questions.

@jeanna,
Testing equip, I had to go without to get this stuff as I could see we (I) really do need it.
Is ithe waveform complex, no not really, its just good to be able to see it on a cro and the frequency meter (I made a boo boo it should have been KHz not MHz, sorry all) :-[
Thanks for the http www pat 2 pdf org, I see Mr Mag has provided the patient whilst I was putting in zzzzzzzzz last night.
(well I gotta sleep too, even if it's upside down to you lot) ;D

@mk1
Yesterday I took a yellow torid off a PC SM power supply and stripped the wires, rewound it the way I thought and put it aside to sleep on.
I noticed you posted the right way to wind it, lol, oh well, I live and learn, thanks for the post mk1
see photo0194.jpg

MrMag,
Thanks for posting the 381970.pdf for us all, TA. :)
I will have to put it aside and print it out when I get a printer that works, mine decided to blow a hole in the flexable membrane that runs to the printhead. The Canon PIXMA MP760 dosen't seem to like doing book size runs lol.
BTW I have ADHD, does this disqualify me if I fall short sometimes? My grammer is not perfect, and you should see my spelling, its actrocious, and my maths is dreadful eg 10+10=1000. :P

@pirate (bill),
I don't know much about maths, amps or frequency, there are others here that are better than me, (way way better) but my way of thinking is this.
DC voltage is just a volt output, it is a constant flow of electrons.
if we begin to alternate this constant flow, or twist it upsidedown, backwards and forwards, it turns into AC, if we do it fast, it becomes 50Hz in australia or 60Hz in USA (etc). If we make it go faster and faster and faster, funny things happen to it, it seems to behave differently, than if it was just a steady voltage. This is what is happenning in the JT. Then someone mentioned "radiant energy", so is there actually 2 different lots of electrical energy? Wel that is my humble opinion, and as I am not a electronics tought expert I can only know what I have picked up.
Amps I think is the amount of push the electrons have behind them.

@ ist
I love your little quips and smilies, but behind them I can see you know a great deal more than you are letting on. hmmmmmmm
I can see you are steering the forum this way or that, guiding us (as we all are in our own ways).

I spent about 3 weeks reading Ironheads forum (HHO), now here is similarities between JT and Ironheads forum, but you have to read it all to find what I meen. (resonance frequencies is the key to all this).

@ amigo,
Thanks for pointing out my mistake, (big bite of humble pie here lol) you are right, I had miss read the instrument, (it even had a green LED lit up on KHZ like a bright lighthouse ha ha) It is just on 20years since I used a cro properly, (im rusty) and have no experience at all of using a frequency meter, I am constantly learning, and a new instrument takes time. I decided to buy these instruments as I knew I would need them to replicate peoples ideas they come up with on this forum and the Stubblefield forum. (just commonsence).
I suppose it's a bit like joining wires together, we can twist the bare ends together, and it will work, or do a better job by soldering them.

@timmy1729
Darlington Transisters, someone mentioned, plonk it in the circuit, if it dosent work, change it around or swap the polarity.
If that dosent work, try making a darling transister yourself, use 2 geranimum transisters instead. I think they have a lower turn on base voltage.

Phew, this was long, teach me to go to sleep...........lol

jim

.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 02, 2009, 10:58:28 PM

@ all

My first double jt. Base on tesla pat. and replication of photo0194.jpg.

This is the unit that uses a pnp and npn transistor , at first there was 2 led on it one on each side now replaced by the 2n4007 diodes
With only on jt connected both led lighted , first on powered and second by induction.The red green blue and yellow winding are like the picture on earlier pages and have each 12 turns like the picture,copper coils there are 2 of 48 turns going on 180 degree 2 times so back and forth.
Each side gives me 30 volts.

@electicme

How many turns did you manage to put on it seem to be good for the secondary (4 pickup coil) .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 02, 2009, 10:59:04 PM

@all

My fuji , I removed the ballast from the bulb and it works just as good as a 4 foot pole.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 02, 2009, 10:59:56 PM

@all

my transformer thief , 2n3055 transistor.

This one gives me 80 volts from rectified ac, even after rectifier i get a 25 volt ac reading i have charged a cap to over 120 volt (i stopped there for the mythbuster moment yes the discharge sparks looking like welding , it lights a neon rated at 120 volt ac but about only 70 is required .
The blue leads are not used but could rectified again not to send any thing back in the coil only out because it causes counter field in the bigger coil.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 02, 2009, 11:00:55 PM

@all

transformer thief with a neon 120 vac

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 02, 2009, 11:02:32 PM

@all

Regular jt running 4 led in series with on the additional windings
When i checked readings on this one with the bridge diode, i got 14 volts per additional coil wire. and could very light some more in the usual joule thief fashion.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 02, 2009, 11:04:14 PM

@all

Joule thief with prime and secondary on each side. Germanium transistor.

And some time to digest .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 02, 2009, 11:19:16 PM

@all

Ok a last one .Double jt (tesla pat) led are in series.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 02, 2009, 11:31:37 PM

@ Mk1

Great photos. Thanks for posting them. But, in your photo of CFL running from transformer, is that really running from only one AA battery? That light is really bright.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 02, 2009, 11:35:39 PM

@Xee2

Only one battery is used in these demonstration the yellow one taken from fuji disposable cam.And NO batteries have been harmed in these experiment.Lol

Neon and fluorescent are 2 different things.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 02, 2009, 11:48:21 PM

@ Mk1

In IMGP0476, is the transformer lighting up a CFL or is that just a photo of the transformer with a neon bulb connected? After looking at it again I think maybe I mistook the bright light in the back as a CFL being lit by the transformer.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 02, 2009, 11:52:04 PM

@xee2

On that pick nothing is connected to the transformer yet , my hand are on there way to remove battery from fuji circuit.There is also ambient light.

On the transformer the black wire is the neg lead, and the white and yellow connected together positive one.Not connected yet.

I could have connected more led but don't have anymore , those red led are the same as the white one and will not light from a 1.5 volt source.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 02, 2009, 11:54:04 PM

wonderful pics mk1

Here are a few of my newest camera jt. i made it just like bills. I think I prefer the way xee makes it, however, since you don't need to solder that joint of 2 pins.

3 pics, I hope.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 02, 2009, 11:58:57 PM

@ Mk1,

Thanks. It looks like you have been busy.

EDIT: same to jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 03, 2009, 12:01:26 AM

@ Jeanna:

Excellent!!!! That is a lot of light there from a dinky AA battery. Great photos too. Thanks for posting these.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 03, 2009, 12:05:17 AM

@xee2

The world is changing i am sure you feel it,i am keeping busy , time for laziness will soon be nostalgia lets use what is really ours to make sure we will never be taken again.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 03, 2009, 12:08:48 AM

@ MK1:

Nice work there! Great job with the cfl tube light. My tests with those were not so good. (probably me)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 03, 2009, 12:42:58 AM

@pirate

The only battery that fully light the cfl was a dead cell phone battery,it was so bright but faded out about 5 sec later, and worked a about 10 times , it was giving me about 3.4 volts and some 1.2 amps but it came with a circuit on it a suspect it had something to do with the high amps
because i have burned the circuit and amps reading when down.Further investigation are required .Also if you have 2 working fuji circuit connect 2 on one 4 foot tube then ad more tubes in series,if it works on 2 battery i have a plan to make it on one.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 03, 2009, 12:55:06 AM

@ MK1:

I only have 1 working Fuji AA circuit as of now. I am going hunting for "used" cameras in a day or so. I hope to find many of these. Then, I will try what you suggested. There is so much more to all of this than I first thought.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 03, 2009, 01:45:11 AM

@all

I just edited the content of previous post with picture, some specs and interesting observations.

If you have any question feel free to ask.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 03, 2009, 02:07:16 AM

I took apart a newer version of the cfl lamp and look what I found. There is no ferrite toroid here but, a very nice sized transformer. I may try this on my breadboard when it gets here. This is larger than on the Fuji circuit. What do you think?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 03, 2009, 02:27:09 AM

i don't think the step up ratio will be as high as the fuji circuit. would it work for mk's new circuit?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 03, 2009, 02:30:20 AM

@ Wilby:

I don't know. These are good questions. I guess all we can do is to try and see? Hopefully we can find out without my getting zapped again.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 03, 2009, 02:41:21 AM

Wow again, more advances made, big ones this time.

@MK1
back at the end of post 71 you asked me how many turns I put on my yellow torid, Primary bifilar about 40 the 2 secondaries each got 104 turns. I just tried it and the transistor got hot, so its back to finding out why, prob a wrong connection lol.

What I'm trying to do is create a duel output by exciting the flux in the torid by using just 1 JT. It seems the torid can handle it better than a iron core transformer. (No proofe, just what I think, but I have been wrong before).

I liked the output of your CFL, very bright.

Well MK1 it seems you have beaten me to getting a double JT working, my congrats for doing it the first time ever ha ha, go with it man, you deserve it.
Lets see if you can do a tripple JT

So I see you got the push pull config working using PNP and NPN transistors, would they be BD139 and BD140 complimentary pairs?
So how how much current are you getting? is this OU? is there any radent energy involved?
Will the output be able to recharge a battery? so many questions.

As Bill says sometimes, theres just so much more involved with this joul thief circuit, and we all are coming up with circuits that seem to work, pushing the boundaries, making things work when "others" say it is impossible. lol

@ jeanna,
Yes, nice photos of your fluro tubes, I carn't seem to get my hands on the same disposable cameras downunder, never mind.

@ bill
I will be interrested to see what you can do with that small trannie in your latest CFL.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 03, 2009, 02:56:47 AM

@ All:

Here is a photo of my latest JT coil I just wound tonight. It is wound on a ferrite that is .750" dia x 1.250 " long. It took a lot more wire so, I don't know what effect this will have. I am going to use my last N3904 transistor on this one to see what happens. (You can see the other identical unwound ferrite on the right in the photo)

@ Jim:

I can't wait for my new large breadboard to get here so I can begin to play around....ummm... I mean experiment.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 03, 2009, 03:27:54 AM

@electricme

I took the npn and pnp from a old printer a a2023 and c5611, but will work with almost anything.My multimeter dose not show me everything
i would need a scope, i can't seem to get any reading i believe it has something to do having no real ground connected to pickup coil
i think if we make them center taps to ground it will help getting answers.Its like it adjust to needs.My original goal in making this dual joule thief was to see if excess voltage could be sent from one end of circuit to other with less voltage or even only voltage present in the caps.That would create a self running jt and get energy from pickup coil getting a type of battery generator.

@pirate

What is that wire single or multiple strand and the gauge seem big a bit for that toroid you will need more turns to get decent induction?
Single strand works real well and tight.

Also other types of materiel with conductive properties but more resistive may get us more voltage per turn so more in less space.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 03, 2009, 03:45:39 AM

@ MK1:

That is multi-stranded 22 ga. wire. This is the same wire I used on my other JT's with the 1" o.d. toroid. I just found a company in NJ that sells 4" o.d. toroids. 4" should allow plenty of windings. I don't have a price from them yet, but it should not be too bad as it is a standard item for them. These are 1" think also so lots of mass there.

Isn't 4" about the size SM used?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 03, 2009, 03:58:46 AM

http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/1481978-ferrite-toroid-102mm-od-b64290a0084x830.html

Above is a link to a supplier of 4" OD ferrite toroids. They are about $50.00 ea. I wonder how much better bigger is in this instance? Would this be worth it to try? I can't afford it now but I can add to my wish list. They also have many other sizes listed there. This one is the largest I could find.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 03, 2009, 04:47:13 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 03, 2009, 03:58:46 AM
http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/1481978-ferrite-toroid-102mm-od-b64290a0084x830.html

Above is a link to a supplier of 4" OD ferrite toroids. They are about $50.00 ea. I wonder how much better bigger is in this instance? Would this be worth it to try? I can't afford it now but I can add to my wish list. They also have many other sizes listed there. This one is the largest I could find.

Bill

using a larger core for your transformer will give you greater energy storing capability. if you're not driving larger tubes or multiple leds it's not really needed. always worth a try bill, $50 is pretty steep. i would look inside cast off switch mode power supplies like from a computer. there is usually a pretty big toroid in those, around 1 1/4" od and often already wound up bifilar. would at least give you an idea of how better bigger is without dropping half a benjamin.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 03, 2009, 07:45:44 AM

@bill
I like your new torid, nice, looks like it may have come out of the VGA plug lead off a PC monitor???

A 4" torid would take some beating in the amount of energy it could provide, with this one bill you could wind on many seperate windings, but this size could really be something if you got any fingers dangling around loose wire ends ha

I'm tired, its 10.44pm but I got to answer another post as I 4 got what I got to say, got 2 go n take a lookse back.
jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 03, 2009, 08:13:04 AM

@MK1
Yep just about any NPN and PNP will work, as long as the VCC is within range and you keep an eye on the base current draw. That said I dont know nothin. :D

MK1 I can verify your dual torid is indeed fact as I have managed to duplicate it, only difference I have not got around to adding LEDS to each output winding, but my frequency meter shows output on both seperate windings.

OK @all
I got my second JT working, somehow I managed to connect it up back to front, I had a break from it all, re-check my mouse traps (I'm winning, its a war here, de mouses army v just old me, an I is winning, ha ha. Losses mouses = 7 me = cheese)

OK back to work, a few posts back I posted photo0192.jpg, well I put it together and this time it works, a nice very bright (blinding) white LED is showing itself off.

See photo0197.jpg

The frequency meter shows both seperate output windings with 14.00 KHz
This is on both seperate windings.
see photo0198.jpg

I believe I am energising 2 seperate output winding/coils by just 1 Jule thief.
Next step is to solder some LEDs to each seperate output and see how that goes.
After that, remove the LEDS and solder in 2 seperate bridge diodes, and see what happens then.

I also believe we could energise more than 2 output windings, bigger torids, more windings etc.

OK all I'm off to bed its now

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 03, 2009, 09:22:04 AM

bigg toroides are good verry good.... bigger the better 8)

some one BUY ONE ...... please....

i will help you with a little trick :)

ist!!

i may have my investor order a few for me .... ;)

apaerntly they make bigones in trontro.... close to me .... :)

thane provided a link a while back

be it knowen high speed switching is not nessasary.... ok it is right now cuz your coils are not correct ;D even in the cam flash units ;)

i have far better ways :)

how do i KNOW your coils are wrong ..... cuz your battery will go dead .... even with out recovery to recharge the source it will take months to drain a battery when your coils are correct ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 03, 2009, 09:54:49 AM

@all
I COULDNT GO TO BED, I had to come back and fiddle n solder again. ::)
its 12.43 am what a glutton 4 punishment ha ha. :o

I found out something, the freq energy being put out by each seperate coil is DC pulses, a great streeeeem of them.
OK we should be thinking of some termonology to identify these output coils, I will call each coil either a or b or c or d etc etc.

Experiment
A LED is a DIODE, it can only light up one way, so I tried connecting a LED across the output of coil "a", it didnt light, I reversed the connections and viola, success, it lit up VERRY VERRY bright, almost BLINDED me.
(This is powered by a single 1.5v AA cell, shhhhh don't tell anyone lol)
I'm tooooo tired to do any voltage tests, thats for when I wake up, gonna sleep in tomorrow I think.

I did the same with coil "b" it also did not light, reversing the connection produced a lit LED, it also was VERY VERY bright.

I did notice something, the 1st LED at the jule thief itself dimmed when a load (2 leds) were attatched to their respective coils "a" and "b".

please see photos
photo0201 = shows the JT working, 1 led is lit brightly, so bright it is flaring, need sunglasses, hurts eyes.

photo0204 = shows JT led "on" not so bright, Coil "a" is on, LED is very bright indeed

photo0200 = shows JT led "on" not so bright, Coil "a" is on and coil "b" is on, Both LEDS are very very bright.

In the photo you can see 2 switches, I can turn on either "a" or "b" coil on together or seperate.

@ist, yep torids are good fun, I had a fun fun day. ;D I will have to keep my eyes open for BIG torids at the dumps or the local junk man.
ist, my LEDS are so much brighter than normal, I tink I burnt one out, opppps e daisy, never mind, I got heeps more.
I need a sleep, I 2 silly 4 words. ;D

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on January 03, 2009, 10:22:18 AM

Quote from: Goat on December 29, 2008, 09:15:33 PM
@ All

Do not stare at high brightness LEDs, because doing so may cause permanent damage to your eyes.

From http://cappels.org/dproj/LED%20Warning/Danger_of_Eye_Danger.html

Other than that, love this thread, keep picking at it :)

Regards,
Paul

Hi All

I mentioned this back on page 59 and no one commented but after the last post by electricme (which is quite impressive BTW) I felt this should be repeated here and possibly added to the beginning of the thread to warn people of the possible dangers of starring at bright LED's.

If anyone can post this warning at the beginning of this thread to warn people I would be relieved.

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Trino Cularoid on January 03, 2009, 10:34:42 AM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on January 02, 2009, 06:03:50 PMthat's how it works, as simple as that. no puzzle at all.

However, keep in mind, that it can work somewhat differently if configured (intentionally or not) accordingly (taking into account [transistor] non-linearities, parasitic capacitances/inductivities, etc.). [See e.g. some of my previous postings/references in this thread.]

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on January 03, 2009, 10:49:44 AM

hi, i seen on the first page you were using a 1f super cap same as me! i am having some difficulty with the curcuit lasting more than a minute and i think its due to my wireing. i have a npn transistor thats a positive base right? seems to be activated by a positive charge. now if im using that do i still use the opposite bias transformer coils? ie a1 and b1 are the same end of the wire when starting the turns and b1 and b2 is the "folded end" that was cut after winding. and in an opposite bias we use a1 and b2 for positives forcing the electricity in opposite directions should both coils have power.

on a side note of how it works when the current flows through the white led its supposed to activate the transistor right? then allowing the current to bypass the led for a breif second and then it has to build up again to pass led again? which means the forward flow of electricity in the primary (led) coil needs to activate the base of the transistor magnetically in the transformer coils?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on January 03, 2009, 11:17:06 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on November 21, 2008, 01:12:11 AM
i have used as low as 7 turns and lit 45 leds

the resisitor is nessary it is your freq... it chokes the first coil down and saturates the core ;) ;D

so if the resistor is the Freq, then a larger resistor will slow the pulses? and this is the same resistor on the coil feeding the base transistor the trigger coil right?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 03, 2009, 12:30:07 PM

The led's have capacitance. Anyone put an oscilliscope across the led shunts to see what kinda waveform and intensity we have there and what freq. Low voltage sucks it is incapable of creating any kinda gain from the dielectric polarization of the ambient field around the conductor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 03, 2009, 01:02:28 PM

Quote from: sparks on January 03, 2009, 12:30:07 PM
The led's have capacitance. Anyone put an oscilliscope across the led shunts to see what kinda waveform and intensity we have there and what freq. Low voltage sucks it is incapable of creating any kinda gain from the dielectric polarization of the ambient field around the conductor.

SPARKS.................

you of all people ...... :o

im a give you your dose of left handed edu aswell

do you consider 12vdc low voltage if so i will teach you something .... and you can eat your words.... ;)

lol

i aint being rude here guys.... you will know it when i am ;D

lol

i have a unit i have built wich i supply it 12vdc the draw is minimal the return is huge on 1 pulse...... :o yep a shocking experience ... lol

the huge return combines with the supply.... ;) so LET A SINGLE CHARGE OF THIS UNIT BE FIRST CONSIDERED LOL ;D

IST!

in my off the shelf model .... ;) it will have a hand crank genny ;D to charge it from there it is perpetual with gain and out put to charge car batteries for ever ;)

hummmmm what have i built?!?!?!?!?!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 03, 2009, 01:17:18 PM

12volts yes as an input into a circuit that changes the ambient emwave field in on or about a conductor real fast and induces a much greater voltage yes. 12volt pushing electrons through a high resistance until it gets hotenough to radiate some photons is what I'm talking about as being quite inefficient at running with any kinda gain.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 03, 2009, 01:22:47 PM

Hi everyone,

I decided to peel away the layers of the AAA fuji board. I took some closeup shots.( Wow, I love this xo laptop. This camera is so good and I don't need a tripod. Lucky kids.)

3 pics should follow.
1- just under the hood
2-the black plastic piece in the right place to function as a switch when under the above green layer.
3-The board itself in place. NOTE the battery is in the reversed position on this board with respect to the camera case. (reversed from the AA board.)

Jeanna

EDIT: I see only the number 2 pic is transferred. I will keep fiddling, but this number 2 is the important one, as long as you make sure the green layer is lined up as when it is closed.! sorry.. I will repost when it is ready.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 03, 2009, 01:42:51 PM

the gain in my system comes from the collapse the kick witch is RECIEVED

eh mr maggs.....

;)

i transmit a magnetic wave i pay for it from my battery altho when the coil is ballanced it costs me NOTHING ;D JUST THE FIRST CHARGE....

pulling wisdom teeth AGIN..... ;D

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 03, 2009, 01:44:41 PM

@ All:

Here is a pic of an AC DC transformer I took apart today. This one used to be for an old cell phone I had. I have a bunch of these left over from portable phone bases, etc. I remembered last night that I saw a youtube video about a year ago where some guy made a stun gun out of one of these. So, I opened one up and there is a nice transformer here, as well as some other components we might be able to make use of. I can't read any of the markings on the transistors until I remove them.

I'll bet a lot of us have these things laying about. I don't know if this will help or not.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 03, 2009, 02:05:22 PM

@ Wilby:

Thanks for the tip on toroids in the computer power supplies. I have about 4 of them laying around here. Yes, I agree $50.00 is high. We have a junkyard in town a buddy of mine just told me about. He said there is all kinds of electronics gear tossed away down there. I will check it out. Look at the great stuff Jim was able to get doing this. Yes, I agree I can build a little bigger JT and compare that to the small one to see if/how much better it is before even thinking of getting a $50.00 4" one. Thank you.

@ Jim:

Thanks for the compliment on my latest toroid winding. I did not get it from a monitor wire but it is very similar (if not the same) as the ones used there. These 2 beads came out of an old TV I junked about a year ago. I just took off all the parts I thought I might want to use someday, I am glad I did. Nice job on the multi-coil JT!! Your lights are very bright indeed. Yes, you can easily burn out an led....how do I know this? Ha ha. They smell something terrible when they burn out too. (It probably emits some highly toxic gas) Keep up your great work.

@ Goat:

Yes, I saw your post and I appreciate that warning. I had read that somewhere before. I am glad you reposted it just in case someone here did not see it the first time.

@ Artic Knight:

I have 2 10 F super caps coming in this week!!! I can't wait to use them with our circuits.

@ Jeanna:

Good luck with the AAA board. I have not messed with mine at all but I still have it here. I went back to try to reply to all of the posts I missed and saw your tubes and leds photos again. That is some very good light there. It seems a lot of us are getting very good light levels from these little AA bats. If you are able to get anything from the AAA board, let me know and I will try to replicate it. When my breadboard gets here I want to try some of these other transformers and transistors to see if it will work better, or as good, as the Fuji. They may not even work as good....who knows?

Great work all!!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 03, 2009, 02:17:42 PM

@electricme

I saw your comment on lighting 2 led , one is dimer , Have you used a npn and npn one connected collector to positive bat side and other to neg side.And some how make sure you don't send back current in the coil in the wrong direction because it will decrease efficiency , Ok now
you got the 2 jt running properly bias what do you get on pickup coil once rectified ?

Also if a pnp and npn the pick up coil should giving out ac as mine dose.

I am really happy you invested some time in building this thing out of faith .

I have started posting my results on this site around the 14 of December but ignored .

Great work !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 03, 2009, 02:52:46 PM

I am quoting myself here to help with continuity.

Quote from: jeanna on January 03, 2009, 01:22:47 PM

3 pics should follow.
1- just under the hood
... see pg 75

3-The board itself in place. NOTE the battery is in the reversed position on this board with respect to the camera case. (reversed from the AA board.)

Jeanna

EDIT: I see only the number 2 pic is transferred. I will keep fiddling, but this number 2 is the important one, as long as you make sure the green layer is lined up as when it is closed.! sorry.. I will repost when it is ready.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 03, 2009, 02:53:15 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 02, 2009, 12:40:45 PM
@timmy

Always check ac en dc reading this will help you understand faster, i am pretty sure you ad 1.5 vac before adding the diode.Also connecting led in series lets you how powerful your unite really has.In parallel you don' need more then 3 volt to light multiples.

@all

I have made some jt with germanium transistor and got switching at lower amps, therefore decreasing current taken from battery on each cycle
adding longevity to battery.

@ MK1:

Using the germanium transistor, have you been able to quantify the longevity to the battery yet? I have made no tests in this area. I do have some very good rechargeable AAs that I was planning on using to test and compare longevity on different set-ups. I figure if I used the same battery, fully charged, I could get an idea about which type of set-up last longer. Do the germaniums handle higher power and dissipate heat better than the 3904's I am using? (my guess is yes, not too hard to beat the 3904s)

I have been sort of waiting to do this type of testing until I can add my supers caps into the circuit.

Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 03, 2009, 03:37:54 PM

@pirate

I have not made any test so far to how long it would last,but what i can say is it will work until about .3 volt is left in the battery.
So transistor need different minimal voltage to operate.The batteries we call dead are still full but we can' t use it anymore because most circuits are running at a set voltage, if the battery drop under that point it stops working but the battery is still ad 1.4 to 1.5 and ready for the trash, this is not efficient in any way we need to make sure it works with the minimal energy input, There is 2 ways to make it better work on the output power and lower the input both will increase the power factor and but default the battery will need to go real real dead.
But honestly i don't intend on running from a battery .

The transformer you got should work to get more power it needs at least 3 coils.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 03, 2009, 03:43:12 PM

@ MK1:

Thank you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 03, 2009, 04:52:38 PM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on January 03, 2009, 04:47:13 AM
using a larger core for your transformer will give you greater energy storing capability. if you're not driving larger tubes or multiple leds it's not really needed. always worth a try bill, $50 is pretty steep. i would look inside cast off switch mode power supplies like from a computer. there is usually a pretty big toroid in those, around 1 1/4" od and often already wound up bifilar. would at least give you an idea of how better bigger is without dropping half a benjamin.

Yeah, the old PC power supply I took apart was from an AT case. It had two torroids, one smaller and the other larger, both of which I made into my JT's. They were wound already, but the larger one had eight wire ends to deal with. I didn't know what to do with those so I took them off and rewound it bifilar. The larger one was nearly two inches in diameter. It also came with a ferrite choke that was a ferrite rod with some bare copper wire around it. I'd love to use that if someone can tell me what can be done with it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 03, 2009, 05:33:51 PM

;D

post a pic of it ....

8)

ist.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 03, 2009, 05:47:13 PM

@All

I have a bag full of toroid,I pick up anything electronic most parts are as good as new ,big caps for free, pc power supplie will usually have at least one but may have many, printer are also good, Radio etc.They are packed with resources, we payed the big price for them they ad to mine minerals
extract them put them in parts assemble in circuits that are as valuable as the part, you would not believe the things that can be found that way,tech and parts,(Someone will make sure that you will get the parts you need lol ) then send to land field or back manufacturers to cut cost and make money again.Recycling benefits only those that do them self.If a country needs a certain mineral you make it in a daily used thing so the people drive the price down for them, one more step declare them hazardous to nature and make strict rule for recycling and then you get that mineral for free.Get the picture now?And have part to rebuilt.

In my area i have access to any parts i can buy cheaper then most of you (ridiculous cheap) within a 20 min radius by foot.
But only go when i need a specific part i don't have or really important part you should always have.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 03, 2009, 06:22:14 PM

@ist

How are you stocking the kick back in a cap?.Unipolar charging? or put to work directly.

@all

Be creative in your winding its like art even knots may give interesting results have someone else do it you will never know.\
Like those bracelets made by little girls.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: rensseak on January 03, 2009, 06:44:54 PM

Hi @all

today i built my first JT but not only with a toroid also with a ferrit rod (from a transistor radio). The result is the same as with the toroid.

just my 2 cents so that you have it easyer to wrap your coils. ;)

regards
Norbert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 03, 2009, 07:05:22 PM

Quote from: rensseak on January 03, 2009, 06:44:54 PM
Hi @all

today i built my first JT but not only with a toroid also with a ferrit rod (from a transistor radio). The result is the same as with the toroid.

just my 2 cents so that you have it easyer to wrap your coils. ;)

regards
Norbert

that being said try a nail a screw lol how about air :D

if you are lazy......... lol

buy a relay ... ;)

i can teach you yet 1 more trick ;)

lol

try to recover it in a BIG CAP..... :D even bigger than it could posibly drain in 1 pulse.....

now tell me you dont get the mechinical work for free ;D

never mind the extra electrical engery ...

and well your at it tell me i didnt crack it ;D

ist!

BTW i dont got the CRACK POT AVITAR 4 nuttin ;D ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 03, 2009, 07:26:53 PM

Torroidal cores and ferrite cores can respond to highfrequency changes in voltage whereas laminated soft iron is for much slower transients. Torroidal cores can also utilize eddy currents wheras laminated cores are insulated so as to discourage eddy currents.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 03, 2009, 07:33:20 PM

@All

I was thinking(dangerous, I know) about how to improve our standard JT. Since we have a design that works(i.e. lights multiple LED's), I want to gather a list of what our more experienced posters think is wrong with the design and what would be the ideal to counter that flaw and how we might go about it. I know, you're probably saying "That's what this thread IS." Yeah, I know that, but after 77 pages and a camera circuit thrown into the mix, it's quite hard to keep it straight. But, creating a small summary like this every now and then, should help some of us that are organizationally challenged and don't have an extensive electrical background. The method where everyone blindly experiments when others have made improvements is recreating the wheel many times. Listing problems with the design and solutions that we have found should benefit everyone. This way we will not waste resources rediscovering improvements and can work on further improvements.

So, here is what I remember people saying so far(not necessarily from this thread):
1. The two-wire-at-a-time coil winding isn't the most efficient. What is the most energy efficient method and wire gauge? Is stranded or solid best?
2. Multiple ways energy is wasted. We could use a list of ways from the more experienced among us.I've heard complaints about the resistor, transistor, and other things.
3. Transistor selection. Apparently, some are more efficient for this purpose than others. Which are more efficient?

I am sooooo not trying to be bossy, pretentious, or anything. I'm just trying to help and this is one thing I think would help. I'm not trying to be communist about this either. So, I hope I'm not projecting the wrong idea. ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 03, 2009, 07:55:52 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 03, 2009, 07:05:22 PM
that being said try a nail a screw lol how about air :D

if you are lazy......... lol

buy a relay ... ;)

i can teach you yet 1 more trick ;)

lol

try to recover it in a BIG CAP..... :D even bigger than it could posibly drain in 1 pulse.....

now tell me you dont get the mechinical work for free ;D

never mind the extra electrical engery ...

and well your at it tell me i didnt crack it ;D

ist!

BTW i dont got the CRACK POT AVITAR 4 nuttin ;D ;D

@IST

I am interested. Can you elaborate more on the relay and big cap suggestion? I am going by Radio Shack later and might pick up a relay and big cap if you suggest what to get.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 03, 2009, 08:02:36 PM

@ Goat
I apologise for my 3 post later on reply, I go to sleep for 7 hours, when I wake up there are 3 more pages added to the forum, and more new people coming outa-de-wood-work, ha ha.

On your LED warnings.
YES, I totally agree with you, some of these LEDs can be driven to distruction, in the process of doin so, they are able to exceed many times their normal "rated" brightness, so all those reading this, PLEASE TAKE CARE when you are experimenting.

DON't look directly into the top of the LED

Procedure
make sure you have a suitable resistor in series with the LED (not like me, feeding DC and HFz directly to the LED) I should know better.

If possible, put a "T-Pot" or adj resistor in series with the LED.

I just didn't think about it, and could have payed with it with some eye loss, I was lucky.

Goat, thankyou for posting the original warning, and this last one as well. TA muchly.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 03, 2009, 08:11:41 PM

Quote from: sparks on January 03, 2009, 07:26:53 PM
Torroidal cores and ferrite cores can respond to highfrequency changes in voltage whereas laminated soft iron is for much slower transients. Torroidal cores can also utilize eddy currents wheras laminated cores are insulated so as to discourage eddy currents.

@sparks...

why high freq? you wont want it trust me!!!

the big diff with high freq and low freq with the right coils IS.....HOW MUCH DO YOU WANT!!!..... AND STAY FAR AWAY FROM HARMONICS AND RESOSANCE!

or tune your coils to crap and and hit it fast as the cam flash does... the jt .... a poor way to go ;) ;D

@timmy any relay and a big cap best to play and find out or if you know electronics.... then match it .. i cant say for sure ...

i have been playing with a big one 120 000uf 15v and i can hand pulse it way past its rateing .... HAND PULSE...... ;D IN SECONDS....mabe 20seconds ;D

ist!

i forgot to mention im useing a MOT.... but it is no diffrent with a relay matched ;)

of course there is more parts involved.... and i aint talking ...

BUILT IT.... IT WILL TEACH YOU ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 03, 2009, 08:14:45 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 03, 2009, 08:11:41 PM
@sparks...

why high freq? you wont want it trust me!!!

the big diff with high freq and low freq with the right coils IS.....HOW MUCH DO YOU WANT!!!..... AND STAY FAR AWAY FROM HARMONICS AND RESOSANCE!

or tune your coils to crap and and hit it fast as the cam flash does... the jt .... a poor way to go ;) ;D

@timmy any relay and a big cap best to play and find out or if you know electronics.... then match it .. i cant say for sure ...

i have been playing with a big one 120 000uf 15v and i can hand pulse it way past its rateing .... HAND PULSE...... ;D IN SECONDS....mabe 20seconds ;D

ist!

@IST
I don't want a cap THAT big ;D
My photo cap is as big as I will handle with my limited knowledge.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 03, 2009, 08:37:25 PM

like is said guys i can go on for ever bout this stuff... ;D

and im not trying to pump my ego by anymeans im trying to get you in the right dirrection as nobody wants to figure out the puzzel as i have done ....

call it a boost if you like ;)

i cant watch people waste TIME....

no body read tell the truth thred eh?....

been a year already....

you guys are smart youll get it faster than i ever did ..... lol but i also had to reverse engineer the dam TPU like 50 times first .......

its all on this site.....

and i never picked up a peice of wire b4 i started with the intenction to wind a coil .... ;D

so if i can do it solve it prove it all ....

SO CAN YOU ;D

ISTEAM!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 03, 2009, 09:46:38 PM

@inno

In this particular setup the transistor is going to vibrate like a mofo. In fact it is going to hit a whole bunch of freqs. It will distribute an expotential rise in frequency and subsequent gain in amplitude at the expense of duty. So you wont have the same voltage impressed across the load for a long time but a very high change in voltage across the load for a lot of shortened times. Induced voltage is a result of change in the field about a conductor. The faster you change it the higher the voltage. The higher the voltage the faster you can change it.
Everyone has heard a flash charge circuit. It starts off at a real low freq. and goes ultrasonic but it doesn't stop once our ears cant pick it up. It goes way up there. Hence the transformer needs to be able to respond to highfrequency to get the best bang for the buck.

The relay when it's contacts approach each other and you have two capacitor plates squeezing charge into the space inbetween em the resulting plasma when the contacts short gives a very wide spectrum of pulses. Your coil will pick one out and store it up for a while and shoot it back to the gap with alot more voltage than the little pulses that it sucked up. Voltage begets voltage.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 03, 2009, 09:46:56 PM

@ sparks
Here is what I see on my cro, I connected the earth clip to the 0v of the LED and the probe to the +v of the LED and up popped a image of the insides of the LED, well until I know more thats what it looks like, weird.
This reminds me when I was looking at the waveform of a video signal displayed on a Wave Form Monitor?? (not a vector scope)

OK photo 0205 = side view of the LED extinguished showing probes connected to anode and cathode.
photo 0206 = Cro waveform showing image of LED, weird stuff this.
photo 0207 = LED is ON
photo 0208 = waveform when LED is on
photo 0209 = Close up at ringing at bottom of trace

OK photo 0210 = LED is off, probe connected before switch to both ends of coil "a"
photo 0211 = wave form of open circuit, no load, at ends of coil "a"
notice there is ringing at top of trace and also at bottom of trace.

@Rensteak,
Welcome to the forum.
So you built a JT with a ferite rod out of a radio, now thats excellent.
How did you wind the bifilar coil, how many turns, could you post a photo please
could you draw up the circuit and post it.

Well done Norbert

I have to sestart my PC its locked up hope this gets to forum ok.
jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 03, 2009, 09:57:00 PM

Quote from: sparks on January 03, 2009, 09:46:38 PM
@inno

In this particular setup the transistor is going to vibrate like a mofo. In fact it is going to hit a whole bunch of freqs. It will distribute an expotential rise in frequency and subsequent gain in amplitude at the expense of duty. So you wont have the same voltage impressed across the load for a long time but a very high change in voltage across the load for a lot of shortened times. Induced voltage is a result of change in the field about a conductor. The faster you change it the higher the voltage. The higher the voltage the faster you can change it.
Everyone has heard a flash charge circuit. It starts off at a real low freq. and goes ultrasonic but it doesn't stop once our ears cant pick it up. It goes way up there. Hence the transformer needs to be able to respond to highfrequency to get the best bang for the buck.

indeed but!

even 1 bang from this buck ... lol

and it hurts with out a cap ... if you use a cap this can be fatial in 1 pulse ... depending on the cercimstances.. :o :o ...

so i will not even run the thing as fast as my relays can go....... way too fast!!!!

to really grasp this entire thing you must solve conversion.... ;) then use the ozone layout to selfsustain ...

like i said b4 i never studied the last pattend...

ist!

ok SPARKS.... but what if it could never return to the gap ;) ;D

dont think youll blow anything and it will find it's own path of least resistance on its way to ground and what if it was 10 light bulbs .... ;)

;D

i do perfer to put it in a battery and use an invertor :D lol well until i finish my new IST'S CAPPAC! lol then i will drive the invertor right off it with out batteries ....... lol closed loop 8)

as i said b4 YOUR MIND IS YOUR ONLY LIMITING FACTOR....

peace to all

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 03, 2009, 10:08:13 PM

@electicme

Don't get confused with led,those led are giving about 1.4 volts dc in full sun light, the scope is showing the light reflection in the led.
Check to see how right i am.I have not check it with scope.Led are like solar cell.You got a scope of free energy, lol.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 03, 2009, 10:22:07 PM

@all
Just rebooted the old PC, had a software update in the background, so I used ERUNT to make a copy of the registry as a safety thing :D

Right, I checked the forum and I was right, the cro shots didnt appear so here they are, 2nd time lucky ehhh.

@ Bill
I got your PM, thanks kind sir.

right, 0206 = inside of LED can be seen on the cro screen, weird
0207 = LED side on view to see its insides, sorry its not too clear.
0208 = Waveform of output of coil "a" whilst LED is turned on, one can just see some ringing on the bottom of the screen
0209 = closest I can get to make the ringing bigger.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: amigo on January 03, 2009, 10:55:14 PM

To further help everyone's education on the subject I submit two eBooks, please find the links below:

Light-emitting Diodes : http://www.mediafire.com/?z2i4niwyf2y

Power Supplies for LED Drivers : http://www.mediafire.com/?md0itlk5dgj

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 03, 2009, 11:33:20 PM

Quote from: timmy1729 on January 03, 2009, 07:33:20 PM
@All

I was thinking(dangerous, I know) about how to improve our standard JT. Since we have a design that works(i.e. lights multiple LED's), I want to gather a list of what our more experienced posters think is wrong with the design and what would be the ideal to counter that flaw and how we might go about it. I know, you're probably saying "That's what this thread IS." Yeah, I know that, but after 77 pages and a camera circuit thrown into the mix, it's quite hard to keep it straight. But, creating a small summary like this every now and then, should help some of us that are organizationally challenged and don't have an extensive electrical background. The method where everyone blindly experiments when others have made improvements is recreating the wheel many times. Listing problems with the design and solutions that we have found should benefit everyone. This way we will not waste resources rediscovering improvements and can work on further improvements.

So, here is what I remember people saying so far(not necessarily from this thread):
1. The two-wire-at-a-time coil winding isn't the most efficient. What is the most energy efficient method and wire gauge? Is stranded or solid best?
2. Multiple ways energy is wasted. We could use a list of ways from the more experienced among us.I've heard complaints about the resistor, transistor, and other things.
3. Transistor selection. Apparently, some are more efficient for this purpose than others. Which are more efficient?

I am sooooo not trying to be bossy, pretentious, or anything. I'm just trying to help and this is one thing I think would help. I'm not trying to be communist about this either. So, I hope I'm not projecting the wrong idea. ;D

you're not projecting the wrong idea at all.
i might come at it a little sideways though. before you go listing the problems and what doesn't work, a purpose or goal should be stated. ie: a goal of 80% efficiency or lighting 100 leds, etc.
it's hard to say what is 'wrong', when 'right' hasn't been defined, but i like where you are going with organization.

here's my rundown of your list.
1. depends on your goal. if your goal is a cheap and easy 'mac guyver' emergency light hack, then cat5 or twisted pair phone cable wrapped around a rusty nail or paperclip is great. if you're shooting for 90% efficiency, probably not so great.
2. most of the losses are going to come from the base drive and magnetic components, ie: transformer.
3. the low supply voltage of the JT circuit make selection of a transistor with low saturation voltage critical in obtaining higher efficiencies.

hope that helps

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 04, 2009, 12:11:28 AM

Quote from: timmy1729 on January 03, 2009, 07:33:20 PM
@All

I was thinking(dangerous, I know) about how to improve our standard JT. Since we have a design that works(i.e. lights multiple LED's), I want to gather a list of what our more experienced posters think is wrong with the design and what would be the ideal to counter that flaw and how we might go about it. I know, you're probably saying "That's what this thread IS." Yeah, I know that, but after 77 pages and a camera circuit thrown into the mix, it's quite hard to keep it straight. But, creating a small summary like this every now and then, should help some of us that are organizationally challenged and don't have an extensive electrical background. The method where everyone blindly experiments when others have made improvements is recreating the wheel many times. Listing problems with the design and solutions that we have found should benefit everyone. This way we will not waste resources rediscovering improvements and can work on further improvements.

So, here is what I remember people saying so far(not necessarily from this thread):
1. The two-wire-at-a-time coil winding isn't the most efficient. What is the most energy efficient method and wire gauge? Is stranded or solid best?
2. Multiple ways energy is wasted. We could use a list of ways from the more experienced among us.I've heard complaints about the resistor, transistor, and other things.
3. Transistor selection. Apparently, some are more efficient for this purpose than others. Which are more efficient?

I am sooooo not trying to be bossy, pretentious, or anything. I'm just trying to help and this is one thing I think would help. I'm not trying to be communist about this either. So, I hope I'm not projecting the wrong idea. ;D

@ All and timmy

First thing i think we must focus on is how to recycle the charge sent in the coil.
Like feeding it to opposite side of dual jt At both ends of the coils feeding again to opposite side to increase voltage or sent to a cap for help on initial pulse.

Also finding the best transistor to get saturated at the lowest amps and volt possible ,or taking a 555 timer for switching making sure that the coil are timed , and leave the transistor for amplifying.

Improvement on pickup coil , design or material get more voltage out, in a set space.

Make it self oscillate on caps, creating a self-oscillate transformer, and go to the moon. lol

To do that the circuit needs to work both ways like your lungs , that are filing them self because there empty.

Yes it sounds impossible , but is it? Or at least go back a 100 years when electricity was free as the air.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 04, 2009, 12:46:57 AM

ist's ss mac switch .... ;D whistleing free engery :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBjN0wO05-w

;)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 04, 2009, 01:35:42 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 04, 2009, 12:46:57 AM
ist's ss mac switch .... ;D whistleing free engery :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBjN0wO05-w

;)

ist!

where's the 'free energy'? the video was a relay making noise.
where are your measurements? where is the meter?
no scope, no ammeter, no voltmeter = free energy? come on, please.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 04, 2009, 02:17:03 AM

build it ....touch it ...... feel it ;D

it is there ;)

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 04, 2009, 02:33:34 AM

more vacuous allusions...

parts list... circuit diagram... prove it ;D

IT IS NOT THERE.

ist i hardly believe you have 'solved it all'.
you didn't even believe that high voltage could light up a fluoro tube and pretty much called me a fake when i showed something SO SIMPLE, and yet you want us to believe you actually 'solved for conversion' and found OU? this is absolutely delusional.

i just spent the last hour going through as many of your posts as i could. i made it through 50 pages and didn't find ONE circuit diagram. NOT ONE. now maybe there is one, maybe i missed it, but i doubt it.
point blank question: have you ever posted a circuit diagram of any of your claims?

don't bother to respond with more of your B.S. put up a circuit digram or shut up.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 04, 2009, 02:58:14 AM

@ MK 1 and Jim:

Similar to what MK1 just posted, when I ordered the supercaps what I had in mind to try (among many things) was to see if I can charge 1st cap and run JT (simple model) from the cap. It is 2.3 volts (10 Farad) and the circuit operates on our 1.5 v bats so if the cap is not charged 100% it should be ok. (I hope) That is why I got the lower voltage ones. So now, if it runs on this 1st cap. I then want to make a second JT coil and have it (maybe) pick up the kicks through induction and use those kicks to charge the 2nd cap and thereby capturing more of the energy that is usually wasted.

The above may not be possible, I don't really know. But, this is what I was thinking when I saw those lower voltage supercaps on the online catalog just begging me to order them. If this indeed works at all like I envision, (big if) then I would like to see if I can find a way to link the 2nd cap back to hit the 1st cap to make a complete cycle out of it. This may take manual switching, I don't know. Anyone who knows me on here knows I am over my head with this stuff already and the water is getting deeper.

I am not sure how the "diode" part of the leds will come into play here. In a strange way, I think it might actually help to keep the kicks from flowing back the "wrong" way.

Of course, all of the above may just be a really efficient way to stop the oscillation of the toroids completely.....ha ha.

@ Timmy:

Although I believe we are all working together our goals may not all be in exact alignment. This is fine. I think you need to set whatever goals you want to reach and then work on them, as you have been doing. I have this "master plan" that involves my earth battery as well as a few other ideas kicking around. Plus, the more I learn here, the more those particular goals may shift a bit, or even change completely, who knows? I do agree with you about "not reinventing the wheel" (a favorite saying of my late father's) so I would suggest that when you are going to try something, if you have not seen it here yet, ask. Possibly someone has already tried that very same thing and can save you the trouble if it did not work, or tell you what they learned while attempting it....etc.

I wanted to light an led from an AA battery and did that. I got into the florescent tubes and the camera circuit because I could not imagine being able to replicate that. Then I wanted to light a sh*tload of leds and have done that. Now I want to work on the stuff that MK1 and Jim are speaking of. (Others too) Personally, I think we are all just getting started here. Who knows what some of these guys will come up with? Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 04, 2009, 05:55:12 AM

@ bill and all
That last post was a good speech, you managed to jog me back to reality ha ha.

Just a few minutes ago I was thinking (oops) where I was going to go with my JT, and I thought (oops again) it was time to see if I could put one of the outputs on my JT to good use.
I decided to pick on my "a" output coil, I soldered a diode IN4004 onto the neg side of the LED pin, connected it via black wire to a second batt (-).
Soldered a red wire from (+) on the LED leg and soldered it to the (+) on the batt
Check with multimeter, output = 1.46v

I put a nicad into the modified solar battery holder and it shows 1.00v

Switch on the LED and it is a very dull glow, remove the Battery and it is nice an bright again, put batt back in circuit.

So far the 2nd batt seems to be charging, getting it's charge via the 1st nicad cell, via the JT, pumping the torid, the seperate coil "a" picking up the energy, and putting it into the nicad.

I wont know for sure until I check it tomorrow morning.

De war isss hotting up, Mouses casualty has rissen to 8, yipee, mouse didnt get much cheese this time, so I can use dar bait again. lol
De best trick is to get a piece of cheese, leave it to go hard, then put on trap so he carnt bite it off easly.

@ bill, I sent you a lot of info on electronic stuff along with a good story. I tink I filled up your mail box oooooops.

@ all,
I don't ususlly promote anything on any forum, but since we all here are electronically inclined, I thought I might mention in passing a product we have in Australia, an electronics magazine called Silicon Chip, I get a lot of the stuff outa there, have done so for over 20 years, its a good read and I recommend it. See http://www.siliconchip.com.au Circuit Notebook is good along with Projects to build.

For those reading this and know about Chemtrails, take a look at Novenber 2008 AirNav RadarBox, its a bit easier to trackem now, but the kit is a bit pricy.

Wish I could get my hands ona supercap, I wanna supercap,,,,sniff

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 04, 2009, 06:13:54 AM

@ ist
I took a look at some videos you posted, I liked the one that has a grey plastic box with a knob on the top, and the chattering relay, hmmmmm.

OK lets see if I am right here
The relay coil is energised, the iron core becomes saturated, the circuit is broken by the mechanical points, the result is a hi voltage caused by the collapsing magnetic field, which "may be" fed back to a capacitor or battery or supercap.

The knob is used to give you the best back EMF for the least amount of energy to create the magnetic field in the first place.

OK ist, am I right, parsially right, or wrong, now thats really invitiing myself to get any answer ::) ::) :o ;D

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 04, 2009, 06:29:27 AM

@all
I As far as BEMF in the scope shots, here's what I'm suggesting. The sharp rise in the voltage spike followed by a very, very rapid decline produces a quickly collapsing magnetic field, followed by inductive kick back (radiant energy?). I believe both Bearden and Bedini, in the Energy from the Vacuum videos speak about radiant energy in Bedini's circuits in this way.

I went back to post 8 and saw the above post by Bob Smith, now take a look at my last photo I took, on 2nd last post? I think, I can see what he is referring to, right at the bottom of the pulse is the ringing, it tapers down and ends. hmmm is this radiant energy? I don't know.
This is the photo I zoomed in to.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: rensseak on January 04, 2009, 07:30:57 AM

Quote from: electricme on January 03, 2009, 09:46:56 PM

@Rensteak,
Welcome to the forum.
So you built a JT with a ferite rod out of a radio, now thats excellent.
How did you wind the bifilar coil, how many turns, could you post a photo please
could you draw up the circuit and post it.

Well done Norbert

I have to sestart my PC its locked up hope this gets to forum ok.
jim

hi jim,

i just wound it like the toroid one with 15 turns, but that was only random. When i pull out the coil from the rod the light turns off but lowering the resistens till 0 Ohm (instead a resistor im useing a 5k potentiometer) turns it on again but the curios is that the cabels are much sensetiver by touching. The light is then not as bright as with the rod. Also it seems to me that the color of the light change a little. But there is something odd. there is a fluctuation in voltage about 0.1 to 0.15 V and sometimes a flicker in the light. When it reach 1.235 V (across the battery) the light sudden dims for short then it lights up again and the voltage drops to about 1.100. From there it takes some min. till it reaches again the 1.235 V. That is my observation right now but dont ask me what is going on there. I have only a DMM. i just wound it like the toroid one with 15 turns, but that was only random. When i pull out the coil from the rod the light turns off but lowering the resistens till 0 Ohm (instead a resistor im useing a 5k potentiometer) turns it on again but the curios is that the cabels are much sensetiver by touching. The light is then not as bright as with the rod. Also it seems to me that the color of the light change a little. But there is something odd. there is a fluktuation in voltage about 0.1 to 0.15 V and sometimes a flicker in the light. When it reach 1.235 V (across the battery) the light sudden dims for short then it lights up again and the voltage drops to about 1.100. From there it takes some min. till it reaches again the 1.235 V. That is my observation right now but dont ask me what is going on there. It looks like the voltage of the battery is climbing up. I will let it so now to see what will happen after any hours.

Norbert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 04, 2009, 08:50:06 AM

@ Norbert

Well Well Well, what have we here, take a look every one, here is the 1st time this forum has seen a working example of an "airless" jule thief bifilar wound coil. I am impressed, and the photo is good also. :D

IST mentioned in a couple of his posts that this could be possible, the last pic shows many white LEDs working.

Norbert, this is impressive, congradulations.

You mentioned you have replaced the resistor with a adjustable resistor, again well done, I had thought of this myself but didnt have one so didnt worry about it, you beat me to it. Having a variable resistor here will give you a bit of "control" over what the JT can do, I suppose it could be see as a fine tuning of the JT.

OK, lets get down to the reason you posted.

your voltage goes up and down when you alter settings,.
This is to be expected, as you change something ever so slightly, it will change something else, if the light flickers quickly, this may mean a crook connection. First clean your contacts on the breadboard, then the wires that poke in the small holes, see if that fixes the problems.

The JT is running on the energy inside the rod (magnetic field), when you pull the rod out it is seeking the energy from somewhere, so I think it begins to feed off it's own energy it creates when the rod was inside the coils. So it seems to me the magnetic field produced by the bifilar coils can be utilised without the rod being there, as the field is in existance, energy can be drawn from it as long as it exists, hmmm
Has anyone else got some advice for Norbert?

This topic constantly amazes me, something new every day.
Now I wonder, could a bifilar winding be put on a toilet roll? hmmm

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 04, 2009, 10:34:54 AM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on January 04, 2009, 02:33:34 AM
more vacuous allusions...

parts list... circuit diagram... prove it ;D

IT IS NOT THERE.

ist i hardly believe you have 'solved it all'.
you didn't even believe that high voltage could light up a fluoro tube and pretty much called me a fake when i showed something SO SIMPLE, and yet you want us to believe you actually 'solved for conversion' and found OU? this is absolutely delusional.

i just spent the last hour going through as many of your posts as i could. i made it through 50 pages and didn't find ONE circuit diagram. NOT ONE. now maybe there is one, maybe i missed it, but i doubt it.
point blank question: have you ever posted a circuit diagram of any of your claims?

don't bother to respond with more of your B.S. put up a circuit digram or shut up.

figure it out for YOURSELF ...

PARDEN ME DID YOU HAND ME MY ANSWERS ON A GOLD PLATTER ....

NO YOU DID NOT

LOL

USE YOUR BRAIN ALREADY ::)

I HAVE GIVEN more than ANYONE

IST

yes bro your correct! ;)

but ballance it with a low inductance choke.... ;D btw its an anlum box.... used to sheild my ss parts...

btw will think what you want .... i know real well what i SPEEK OF ;D

where is your proof ...

i have built litterly 50 curcuits or more ;D in ALL my building you must think i did not learn anything ......lmao...

you guys cant figure out the damm synced switching so how in the hell are you gonna understand my hovver board controller witch does not use switching ....

hence my avitar

this is the SIMPLE SHIT then it goes neo ... ;D as i said over a year ago i have gone 10 000 miles beond my neozap wich is miles ahead of this CRAP!!

BTW when i do decide to prove it ..... YOU CAN BUY 1 OFF THE SHELF ;)

riddle me this ....why did i use a dpdt relay... ;) pnp npn ring a bell ... ;D

the controller i have made my own can handle over 2megawatts...... CONSTANT .. :o :o :o

TELL ME WHY I DONT GIVE IT AWAY.....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 04, 2009, 12:12:43 PM

here is 1 more ....

what is the result ..... if you insted of pull electrical engery off of this unit i have showen ;D and compound the magnetic engery ;D

what!! :D

and you all thought ufo's wernt real ...... LOL.... ;D

ist...

what is electricty....? ;) or as my daughter Ali Blyss says "TRISSITY" ;)

for the record public i say this for the first time

i was electruciated at 6 months old ... a baby i was perhaps i died ... and came back ;) who knows ..... but the remarkable thing is it WAS GOOD FRIDAY!!

i tell no lie!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 04, 2009, 12:40:49 PM

IS, LMAO. You were electrocuted. That does explain a lot of your mystery.
But this is the joule thief thread, please stick to the topic. :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 04, 2009, 01:08:58 PM

INDEED... ALL THO IT IS ALL 1 IN THE SAME

lol

sorry guys

lets see results now.... ;D

some one tune a coil low self inductance and high self inductance... :)

wire it as a jt make the unit all 1 wire in the same dirrection pulse from your tied connection ... put a cap on the other end of the low selfinductance wind ... to ground

make this small sacle as it will scare you .. ;D

cheers

sorry for the wisdom tooth lol ;)

but it is needed do it right or dont do it ! ;D

ist! GOT TESLA?? 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 04, 2009, 01:38:07 PM

@norbert

I think you are losing efficiency by having a strait core , i have built some of them already the energy transmitted has not no coil to pick it up or go around, Putting magnet on each end of ferrite should help keeping the magnetic in the bar.

@all

Now for air transmission if you have a very fast switching system so lets call micro levels, and at that point are traveltrough the air easelly
That discovery permitted American to win the second war and are called micro waves.Also see magnetron.If some think i am kidding i added a picture of first prototype.

Used every day talk about driving cost down and research for free.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on January 04, 2009, 02:09:22 PM

ist

you have competition.

modern science cannot explain what i am doing. when i am done, cellphones homes and cars will be fully powered by a powersource in the palm of your hand or in a cell phone battery :D

of course youll need a couple "batteries" for the car but they will be so tiny its neglidgable.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 04, 2009, 02:32:30 PM

@all

One good thing we should do is get are terms right, like radiant energy http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Chapter5.pdf

EMF stands for electromotive force , I Quick search on ignition coil learn the technology should solve that.

Back EMF, I don't really like that term i prefer vacuum because of the way it works.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 04, 2009, 02:40:33 PM

@ MK 1:

Wow, thanks for posting that. That item is a real piece of history. Was that the version made in England? Or did that come later when the US started getting into radar? Most of the younger folks here probably don't know that the first microwave ovens were called "Radarange", and for good reason. Thanks again.

Bill PS since radar was developed prior to the transistor invention, did they used vacuum tubes for the high speed switching?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 04, 2009, 02:53:18 PM

@pirate

This is where i got it,http://www.dkimages.com/discover/DKIMAGES/Discover/Home/Technology/Electronics/General/General-065.html
And other interesting fact is the speed of light factor is archived at 99 percent by our good old microwave oven.

It had to be tubes,Tesla did not have that luxury he had to use motor and brushes to archive switching and timing, harder to make at first be i think it would be a more intuitive process then working with transistor and timers, but not as fast or efficient .The transistor came in 1947.lol

Young people only know what there told, tv closes the loop so not many go beyond , i know i am one but shit started backing up to a point it could not go on, Work needs to be done and cant wait for the Savior to come bail us out it wont.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 04, 2009, 03:25:42 PM

i love the pic of the magnatron ;D

a few mods to it lol and you got my NEO G UNIT :D

ist!

its a big world ...... and well it is teslas work ;D

R U N 2NE 1/1/1/1 ;)

;D

oh yes it is HEMF LOL call it what it is

song time agin ..... little bit of red need more marker ??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-F78yp9urz4 now that is a song from the inside out :).......

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 04, 2009, 03:32:53 PM

Quote from: electricme on January 04, 2009, 08:50:06 AM
@ Norbert

Well Well Well, what have we here, take a look every one, here is the 1st time this forum has seen a working example of an "airless" jule thief bifilar wound coil. I am impressed, and the photo is good also. :D

IST mentioned in a couple of his posts that this could be possible, the last pic shows many white LEDs working.

Norbert, this is impressive, congradulations.

You mentioned you have replaced the resistor with a adjustable resistor, again well done, I had thought of this myself but didnt have one so didnt worry about it, you beat me to it. Having a variable resistor here will give you a bit of "control" over what the JT can do, I suppose it could be see as a fine tuning of the JT.

OK, lets get down to the reason you posted.

your voltage goes up and down when you alter settings,.
This is to be expected, as you change something ever so slightly, it will change something else, if the light flickers quickly, this may mean a crook connection. First clean your contacts on the breadboard, then the wires that poke in the small holes, see if that fixes the problems.

The JT is running on the energy inside the rod (magnetic field), when you pull the rod out it is seeking the energy from somewhere, so I think it begins to feed off it's own energy it creates when the rod was inside the coils. So it seems to me the magnetic field produced by the bifilar coils can be utilised without the rod being there, as the field is in existance, energy can be drawn from it as long as it exists, hmmm
Has anyone else got some advice for Norbert?

This topic constantly amazes me, something new every day.
Now I wonder, could a bifilar winding be put on a toilet roll? hmmm

jim

if you go back to the begining of the thread i posted an aircoil jt long ago, to demonstrate that a core is not absolutely necessary. it was a coil from a crystal radio i built. yes you can use a toilet paper roll.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tak22 on January 04, 2009, 03:33:00 PM

@Artic_Knight

You've been here for a year, asking many many many questions, and thanking others for their help, then you
go all boastfull and cryptic with this:

Quotemodern science cannot explain what i am doing. when i am done, cellphones homes and cars will be fully powered by a powersource in the palm of your hand or in a cell phone battery

of course youll need a couple "batteries" for the car but they will be so tiny its neglidgable.

Are you here to help or annoy? Please contribute or go away ...

@all

If you poke at a 'hinter', will it change it's ways, or will it ignore you?

tak (annoyed and irritated

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 04, 2009, 03:43:55 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 04, 2009, 10:34:54 AM
figure it out for YOURSELF ...

PARDEN ME DID YOU HAND ME MY ANSWERS ON A GOLD PLATTER ....

NO YOU DID NOT

LOL

USE YOUR BRAIN ALREADY ::)

I HAVE GIVEN more than ANYONE

IST

yes bro your correct! ;)

but ballance it with a low inductance choke.... ;D btw its an anlum box.... used to sheild my ss parts...

btw will think what you want .... i know real well what i SPEEK OF ;D

where is your proof ...

use my brain? how bout you use spell check?

proof of what? i haven't made any extra ordinary claims, nor have i made up some bullshit about how this is a transmitter or reciever.
where is your proof of your claims? you claim you can close loop it... PROVE IT.
you don't know what you speak of, this is obvious. if you knew what you were talking about you would have realized how easy it is to light a fluoro tube with a couple hundred volts, instead of demonstrating your ignorance by saying it was faked.

Quote from: innovation_station on January 04, 2009, 10:34:54 AM
i have built litterly 50 curcuits or more ;D in ALL my building you must think i did not learn anything ......lmao...

you guys cant figure out the damm synced switching so how in the hell are you gonna understand my hovver board controller witch does not use switching ....

hence my avitar

this is the SIMPLE SHIT then it goes neo ... ;D as i said over a year ago i have gone 10 000 miles beond my neozap wich is miles ahead of this CRAP!!

BTW when i do decide to prove it ..... YOU CAN BUY 1 OFF THE SHELF ;)

riddle me this ....why did i use a dpdt relay... ;) pnp npn ring a bell ... ;D

the controller i have made my own can handle over 2megawatts...... CONSTANT .. :o :o :o

TELL ME WHY I DONT GIVE IT AWAY.....

lighting a fluoro with high voltage is simple shit... and yet you couldn't figure that out...
you don't give it away because noone wants to be given bullshit.

to reiterate, this isn't ist's 6 freq thread, this isn't ist's neo zap thread this is a joule thief thread so stay on topic or shut up.

(beyond annoyed and irritated)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 04, 2009, 04:14:00 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 04, 2009, 02:40:33 PM
@ MK 1:

Wow, thanks for posting that. That item is a real piece of history. Was that the version made in England? Or did that come later when the US started getting into radar? Most of the younger folks here probably don't know that the first microwave ovens were called "Radarange", and for good reason. Thanks again.

Bill PS since radar was developed prior to the transistor invention, did they used vacuum tubes for the high speed switching?

The reason the magnetron was produced is because of the wavelength of the microwaves would short out the vacuum tubes. The voltage produced between the nodes and antidnodes of a standing wave (wave that reflects in phase upon itself) would develop in the tube between anode and cathode inside the triode and the CURRENT would take out the grid. This can still happen in a radar range when the microwave oven is unloaded. A standing wave field can occur causing the magnetron to become a part of the standing wave and suffer the consequence of voltage gain present in a standing wave field.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 04, 2009, 04:15:07 PM

@ All:

I mentioned the other night that I attempted to light one of my laser tubes with the Fuji AA circuit and it did not work. I just wanted to post a few pics of the laser tube. It is about 12" long and maybe 2" in dia. I have read that you can fire these with the driving circuits from neon signs. I need to look it up again, I forgot where I wrote it all down, but a while back I found out which end was the anode and which was the cathode. These are very high power laser tubes I acquired from a friend of mine. They are brand new. (Never been used) They should put out a good sized green beam if I am not mistaken.

Maybe with a little more power it will fire?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 04, 2009, 04:16:26 PM

Here is one more.

Bill

***EDIT*** Thanks sparks for that explanation. So, this is why you should never run the microwave oven without the glass dish in it? (totally empty) Mine has all sorts of warning labels not to do that. It mentions something about a catastrophic failure or something... ha ha. (Youtube has all kinds of videos of folks doing things with their ovens they should not....al foil, steel, burning candles, etc. Very interesting results...all bad.)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 04, 2009, 04:22:48 PM

@pirate

Hard to tell what are the operating voltages ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 04, 2009, 04:29:02 PM

will btw you are a fool. and i will porpousally NOT USE SPELL CHECK :D just for your kind ;)

listen go read the dam post i never said it was faked .... i said i never did it .... and i said for you to make sure to put all wires in your pictures.... duh!!

solve the shit ... i did ...

now you all pissed me off

GOOD BYE......

if you were not so BLINDED BY THE MONEY ..... SHEESH!!!! YOU WOULD HAVE SEEN IT A LONG TIME AGO....

I AINT DRIVEN BY MONEY....... hence all i have done ....

isteam!!

for the record im still broke lol

ill post it AGIN RIGHT HERE read the dam thing doubt it lol built it and find out ..... lol

not only do you chalange me but tesla as well .......the the man that gave you almost all you have ..... agin FOOL.....

seen the movie IRONMAN?!?!?!?! and you want advanced toys when you can not grasp the simple ones forget it!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 04, 2009, 04:30:04 PM

@ MK1:

I have no idea. All I have is the manufacturer, model number and serial number. It is an industrial laser and is a component of a larger system so it did not have to be labeled like a consumer laser would.

I looked it up about a year ago, and all I found was a diagram showing which end was which. These tubes are probably at least ten years old or so. (guess)

I need to do more searching on the net to see what I can find. I was just hoping I could get enough from the JT Fuji AA circuit to get it to fire up, even if only at low power.

Hey, what would happen if I put the tube in my microwave oven? Just kidding! It is ideas like that which used to get me into a lot of trouble in my younger days.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 04, 2009, 04:34:08 PM

@pirate

Try google patent,http://www.google.com/patents?id=jkk9AAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&dq=4352185

Mk1 name is because i am fast or sleeping. mach1 lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 04, 2009, 04:36:45 PM

@ MK1:

By gosh, that looks just like it....thank you!!!! I am looking at it right now.

Bill ***EDIT*** Correction...that is exactly it!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 04, 2009, 04:41:12 PM

@All

Small toroid JT: I added the diode and cap to this one and it really didn't give as much of an improvement as I saw in the big toroid JT. I think it topped out at around 1.9vdc. So, this tells me that, using identical parts, reducing the size of the toroid reduces output voltage dc.

Big toroid JT: I remade this, keeping the windings on it. I used identical parts with the only exception being that I used the Darlington transistor( Radio Shack PN 276-2068 ). Using this transistor gave me 0.3vdc more than the JT using the 2N3904. So, before I had an output of 3.0vdc and now it outputs 3.3vdc now ;D
Not too much of a gain, but it's a gain nonetheless.

I was told to set a firm goal. So, I think I want to end up with a JT that is as efficient as possible. I don't really care about adding or changing components as long as the original function of the JT remains, which I have been told is a blocking oscillator. If that's not the right term, then whatever it IS. My ultimate goal is to be able to run my air conditioner from an Earth Battery. I think using a JT or some variation of it would be useful in achieving that. To me, that would be a victory like no other. I live in Montgomery, Alabama and the house I rent is old and not energy efficient and the air conditioner is old too. So, my electricity bill for July - September is usually $300+ /month. Most of that is my air conditioner. If it took me $100 in components and stuff to make and Earth battery setup to run the AC off of, I would gladly spend it in order to save me $1000/year.

Don't get me wrong about the camera circuit and other stuff. I am playing with that as well. I'll look into whatever it takes to run my AC from an Earth battery ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 04, 2009, 04:49:29 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 04, 2009, 01:08:58 PM
INDEED... ALL THO IT IS ALL 1 IN THE SAME

lol

sorry guys

lets see results now.... ;D

some one tune a coil low self inductance and high self inductance... :)

wire it as a jt make the unit all 1 wire in the same dirrection pulse from your tied connection ... put a cap on the other end of the low selfinductance wind ... to ground

make this small sacle as it will scare you .. ;D

cheers

sorry for the wisdom tooth lol ;)

but it is needed do it right or dont do it ! ;D

ist! GOT TESLA?? 8)

It would really help to see a diagram of what you are talking about. A picture is worth a thousand words. ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 04, 2009, 04:55:24 PM

you must try real hard to do it in your mind ... first..

only then will you build it with your hands... :)

i mean no harm but ... when you know better it is hard to bite your tounge.. :P

ist!

i posted my biger stuff.... so everyone knows what they play with this is no joke ...

same as edison in the 1800's and the big kickbacks that KILLED MANY BE WIZE....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSmMFog10D0&feature=channel_page

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 04, 2009, 04:59:21 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 04, 2009, 01:08:58 PM
INDEED... ALL THO IT IS ALL 1 IN THE SAME

lol

sorry guys

lets see results now.... ;D

some one tune a coil low self inductance and high self inductance... :)

wire it as a jt make the unit all 1 wire in the same dirrection pulse from your tied connection ... put a cap on the other end of the low selfinductance wind ... to ground

make this small sacle as it will scare you .. ;D

cheers

sorry for the wisdom tooth lol ;)

but it is needed do it right or dont do it ! ;D

ist! GOT TESLA?? 8)

Thank i did try one wire but center taped anyway that is the regular Jt, but i will try the circuit part.
And have a lesson in induction coil and choke, lol

@Will

Stop wasting your time on him i need you with us working.

@All

Education has nothing to do with intellect, yes it is useful to understand some stuff but also blind us from seeing some.
The real smartest people are in the loonies bins, not able to live in a dubbed down environment, none of them are crazy, its just that other people cant make sense of it , and lucky they have a word for it. But be careful those crazy will be the dumb of future generation.

Some ask a lot of question, good there willing to learn,when you learn that way you learn what you want when you want , and not dictated in learning a tons of info , creating a mess and gives no time to analysis.

@Timmy

Congratulate yourself your goal is achieved you got a led working for real cheap,if take time to read all the post you should find enough
to go on for a while more. But if you are looking for a exact part number and schematics, keep scavenging internet it may be there eventual,
In any case i am sure you will be of help,sometime explaining leads to greater understanding .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 04, 2009, 05:00:46 PM

@Pirate

You can use a microwave oven to turn water into a very energetic plasma without the problems burning atomspheric nitrogen and oxygen make. The water keeps the temperature down and the electrostatic field of the standing waves rip the water apart like there is no tomorrow. This is not a do at home kinda project because there is a very good chance of mass to energy conversion which will leave the microwave oven and you in a different form if you get my drift. The water breaks down to h2 gas and with continued electrical excitation breaks down into h1 gas. H1 can then combine to form helium with a large excess of energy as the atomic neuclei fuse. I believe the folks using plasma arc discharge to transmutate garbage into energy are on the verge of finding out that microwave stimulation of the process is going to payoff in a big way. Don't know if this tech will be available to the homeowner but a municipal plant producing clean energy from waste (including human waste like ammonia) would be a dream come true treating the need for clean fuel alternatives and human waste disposal problems in one fell swoop.

Even my dog knows there is energy left in waste. Sorry for the conceptual picture but nature really needs to be observed since it's had millions of years to work out stuff we're trying to do in years.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 04, 2009, 05:31:49 PM

1 more song than to work you go :)

that means you WILL

peace and no hard feelings toward anyone ...

ist
:)

I MUST NOW REMIND YOU

LET IT ROCK! LET IT ROCK!! LET IT ROCK!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETOCzDcAk7I&feature=related

BECAUSE WHEN I ARRIVE I I BRING THE FIRE MAKE YOU COME ALIVE .....

OK WELL LAST SONG REALLY :)

i did my best to notice when the call came down the line ...... ARE YOU HUMAN OR ARE YOU DENCER...LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvVOoCKjonY

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 04, 2009, 05:32:41 PM

Quote from: timmy1729 on January 04, 2009, 04:41:12 PM
@All

Small toroid JT: I added the diode and cap to this one and it really didn't give as much of an improvement as I saw in the big toroid JT. I think it topped out at around 1.9vdc. So, this tells me that, using identical parts, reducing the size of the toroid reduces output voltage dc.

Excellent Timmy. I like the way you work. Now we know something more. Thank you.

QuoteBig toroid JT: I remade this, keeping the windings on it. I used identical parts with the only exception being that I used the Darlington transistor( Radio Shack PN 276-2068 ). Using this transistor gave me 0.3vdc more than the JT using the 2N3904. So, before I had an output of 3.0vdc and now it outputs 3.3vdc now ;D
Not too much of a gain, but it's a gain nonetheless.

Hmm. Intersting oo.
I liked someone's putting a variable resistor to see that change. Maybe that would tell you something more about this transistor?

QuoteI was told to set a firm goal. So, I think I want to end up with a JT that is as efficient as possible.

.... My ultimate goal is to be able to run my air conditioner from an Earth Battery. I think using a JT or some variation of it would be useful in achieving that.

Well, this makes my goal of lighting up my house with 3 or 4 cameras look pretty feeble.

Quote

Don't get me wrong about the camera circuit and other stuff. I am playing with that as well. I'll look into whatever it takes to run my AC from an Earth battery ;D

These go together really well. I have hijacked my alligator clips from my Stubblefield generator AND from my HHO bubbler. I have a strong feeling that all these things we are working on are coming together.

So, Carry on. Keep up the good work and please keep bringing us the information you get from your experiments. We will be using it.

Thank you,

Jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Trino Cularoid on January 04, 2009, 07:29:17 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 04, 2009, 02:32:30 PMOne good thing we should do is get are terms right, [...]

A good starting point is probably Electropedia (IEC 60050) (http://www.electropedia.org) if they have something that fits (use stars like in *keyword* for searches): http://www.electropedia.org

EMF (electromotive force) is "source voltage" 131-12-22: http://www.electropedia.org/iev/iev.nsf/display?openform&ievref=131-12-22 (http://www.electropedia.org/iev/iev.nsf/display?openform&ievref=131-12-22)
CEMF (counter- or back-EMF) is possibly "induced tension" 121-11-28: http://www.electropedia.org/iev/iev.nsf/display?openform&ievref=121-11-28 (http://www.electropedia.org/iev/iev.nsf/display?openform&ievref=121-11-28)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 04, 2009, 07:33:12 PM

Quote from: jeanna on January 04, 2009, 05:32:41 PM
Excellent Timmy. I like the way you work. Now we know something more. Thank you.

Hmm. Intersting oo.
I liked someone's putting a variable resistor to see that change. Maybe that would tell you something more about this transistor?

Well, this makes my goal of lighting up my house with 3 or 4 cameras look pretty feeble.

These go together really well. I have hijacked my alligator clips from my Stubblefield generator AND from my HHO bubbler. I have a strong feeling that all these things we are working on are coming together.

So, Carry on. Keep up the good work and please keep bringing us the information you get from your experiments. We will be using it.

Thank you,

Jeanna

Thank you for the kind words and encouragement ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 04, 2009, 07:40:52 PM

Hello All . I have been following the thread and have made 6 Joule Thieves from various circuits . heres one that dosnt use windings or toroids . It uses a small inductor that looks like a resistor with color stripes on it . I got mine from an old Pc power supply . Sorry for the crude drawing as i copied it from my notebook and it is not my Circuit ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 04, 2009, 08:57:27 PM

@all

There are different type of ferrite, and get saturated at different freq(speed).

interesting film http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdZKxtc8cq8&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sZJgQfO5wg&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvHCQswnjEg&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZDxYHEuy_g&feature=channel_page

@Timmy

play with the resistance on your darlington.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 04, 2009, 08:59:37 PM

Quote from: timmy1729 on January 04, 2009, 07:33:12 PM
Thank you for the kind words and encouragement ;D

Yes Timmy, I think this is important about the smaller the toroid, the less output. I have suspected as much which is why i was looking at the 4" OD ferrite. But, now we have folks using no toroid and no core (air core) and it still works. This is why we need the input from everyone here that is experimenting. I wish I had all the answers but I don't. (maybe someday, but I doubt it)

Running the ac from the earth battery? Wow, that is ambitious. That is a higher goal than mine, at least, at the moment. I will not say it is impossible because, a few weeks ago, I thought it was impossible to light a long tube from an AA battery. I will say that if we all continue to work together, there is no telling what we might be able to do.

Hey, I live just to the north of you here in Kentucky.

@ gadgetmall:

Welcome to the group. I will take a closer look at your drawing later. It is not that crude, you should see my schematics, ha ha.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on January 04, 2009, 09:16:42 PM

tak

i am not bluffing i have found something that will do exactly what i say, i will post later when i have a fully functional curcuit. at this moment what i have used to perform the experiments and prove my "bent" scientific theories will not suffice for proper energy production. i know what i need to complete the circuit and when i have it i will speak more on the subject. without proof i am just another "ist" and i will not have that. lets just say, electricity is VERY misunderstood.

cheers

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 04, 2009, 09:36:15 PM

nice vids... lol

i got 1 4 ya lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjtwZwBaprc&NR=1

what if i told you in 1 push of a button i can and have many times put 135volts in 2 caps the same as this vid .... ;D

the big motor run caps.... 370vac 60 uf

what if i told you the more you add to the unit the better it works lol ;D

i have a vidieo i made where in seconds hand pulseing it i put 558 volts in 2 of these big caps

one wild ride... HOLD THE HELL ON i see a time warp lol

ist!

just because seeing is beleaving ;D

hear ya go 8) as i said i know what i speek of .... and for the record you never stop learning 8) that is what keeps it real!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 04, 2009, 09:43:28 PM

Did anybody get the AAAFuji circuit to actually work?

I know I did by connecting the capacitor leads. -then it shorted out and I started over. I remember xee used a AAA battery, but it was on a AA circuit.

I am looking for someone who got it to work on the lower level, so to speak.

I can find suggestions, but so far no lights. I am asking because I am close enough that the fluro tube lights when I touch the switch with my hand. but not with a plastic handle.

The led also goes on both when I touch it and the light goes on, and it also goes on when I close the switch with a plastic handle and the light does not go on.

A while back xee asked "what is this? and pointed to a battery connection. It is the negative (not the positive as said).

I want to correct this. The polarity on the AAA is opposite from the AA circuit.

This AAA circuit also has a second diode in the neighborhood of the transformer. I am wondering if shorting or cutting it out will hurt?

I thought this would be quick today. I'd just solder up those same leads and ... but no lights.

I think I am close. If anyone solved the AAA circuit or wants to try to help. please speak up!!

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 04, 2009, 10:01:04 PM

Thanks for the Welcome! Here is a couple of pictures (blurry) of the No toroid or coil Joule thief. I used one of My Spare Ice leds . I can run 300 leds off my little Fugi by the way !!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 04, 2009, 10:07:19 PM

@gadgetmall

Well no coil, i would not go that far , Inductor are coils what ever shape they be .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 04, 2009, 10:21:23 PM

Hi gadgetmail.

When you say 300leds on your little fuji... does that mean the AAA type or are you doing theAA type like the rest?

@all,

After posting my query I tried putting a non-electrolytic cap in the place of the big accumulator cap to see what happens.

I held down the switch with a plastic handle and the led went on but no fluro.

I touched the 2 leads of the removed cap with a 0.1uF mylar cap 9green from redio shack) and when I let go the light went on and stayed.

So, now I am much closer. Since the light didn't turn on until I LET GO, I can't just solder it on.

I am sure someone knows what to do. Right?

thank you,

jeanna

EDIT: I went back to do it more and now it won't perform!!

darn!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 04, 2009, 10:36:29 PM

@Mk1

I know but no secondary "coil" or winding one . The Little blue/green with the stripes thing is the inductor .. looks like a resistor but i know its just wire covered in ceramic kind of like some resistors! :-[
@jeanna
Hi. I have 6 like Pirate the AA version . I get them from BIG LOTS ialso Rite Aid has them . They were on sale for 5 bucks for two so i got a couple packs and tore em open and they all are AA . The few that i scavenged are exactly like Pirates with neons . I could probable mess with the aaa and get it to fire up but i don't have one sooo....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Light on January 04, 2009, 10:42:44 PM

â€œI'd just solder up those same leads and, but no lightsâ€¦anyone wants to try to help
- I wish I couldâ€¦With little modification itâ€™s easy to get up to 300V from jt circuit, one can easy light a bunch of leds or gas-tubes, even with one wire.
But the real challenge is to lite a regular bulb (means to get a juice).
We canâ€™t do it without bemfâ€¦Simple thereâ€™s no other way exist.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 04, 2009, 10:45:27 PM

@gadgetmall

Don't be sad i didn't see that part, lol , interesting , do send more info please.

Your camera don't have a macro , take a picture from further and rework it in photoshop or something.

Thank for info and welcome.Sorry if i am rude some times,i am busy on a mission , working on making a joule Meg, looks real good.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 04, 2009, 10:47:32 PM

@Light

Hi , is that the fuji circuit. lol ,nice work!

Welcome!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 04, 2009, 10:58:59 PM

@Mk1
no i wasn't sad it was an embarrassed smily :) I think the Goal is one and the same to have a small lightweight solidstate power device that does something besides light 300-500 plus leds or light CFLS from an aa battery , That is a Major accomplishment in my opinion .No i don't have macro and tried various shots ,just don't work this is the best i can do .
@all
As for the no coil joule thief watch out it puts out a boosted voltage of 4.8 volts and u might blow that led !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 04, 2009, 11:12:25 PM

well it gets wilder ....

you guys and all your posts lol ....

finally here is your vid...

youtube takes soooooooo long....

and well you burry my stuff so quick .... lol :D

a link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVs_7uCbkbQ

explain what you see.... ;D

IST!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Thaelin on January 04, 2009, 11:26:09 PM

IS did you not hear what you said at the beginning of your vid? :o :o

60uf "375v", dude you just blew past the safe working voltage of that
cap. I can assume you have never blew a cap at close range. I have and
that size is going off like a cannon spewing parts and lethal gas all over.
Its one thing proving something to another, but risking that to do it, back
er down bud.

What ever the feelings, be safe in your travels. And 500+volts in that cap
is not safe.

thaelin

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on January 04, 2009, 11:26:56 PM

ist no offense but 60 micro farad really aint much. its not even on single amp volt! and for the voltage rising high this could be done with a step up transformer. doesnt explain free energy. just creative use there of .

perhaps you could delve more into how it was generated since you have a patent? or is it patent pending?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 04, 2009, 11:29:13 PM

@ist

Nice video, you sure gave us a lot in the last few days , lets hope it gives you some respect. Thanks. You Canadian are crazy , I know i am one.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 04, 2009, 11:35:30 PM

like i have been saying.....

lol

;D

when you get it right LOOK OUT!!

KNOW IT IS OUT THERE ... 8)

still doubt me ....

it only takes 1 wrong move an BOOM!

be wize with what you play with ....

there is no reason you cant do this with somthing the size of a quater ;)

but tune it to a SAFE LEVEL

and now you know why i will never let my relay wistel dixie ..... lol

proof enough

i have lots of vids i have made none will be public at this point .....

GOT TESLA??

IST!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 04, 2009, 11:49:02 PM

OK,

Here are a few shots of my ferrite bead. I wound this the other night and posted a shot of it but I did not have the time to add the transistor, resistor, etc. This is still using the 3904 as all of my others. there is a lot more ferrite using a bead and I do believe the light is much brighter. This is yet another 28,500 MCD superbright LED. (white)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 04, 2009, 11:50:30 PM

@ Light

Are those the parts from a Fuji board? I am no sure what parts you are referring to.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 04, 2009, 11:56:21 PM

One more of the ferrite bead JT. We used to be able to post more than 2 pics/post. Well, once Stefan gets the new software up and running, maybe we can then.

I am showing the LED from an angle so it does not look as bright. I believe the extra ferrite mass in the bead helped. I don't know how to reconcile that with those that are using no ferrite and no core at all.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 05, 2009, 12:08:57 AM

Hey!! I just hooked my new ferrite bead JT to my other toroid JT and both superbright leds light up very bright! And, the JT (2nd one in the circuit) with the toroid is waaaay bright! I think it is getting some cumulative (added) energy from being 2nd in line. No pics yet and probably not for a while.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on January 05, 2009, 12:12:50 AM

@ gadgetmall

That is very impressive as far as lighting 300 LED's !!! Pirate88179 is up to 400....but...given what you learned in power recovery from the Bedini circuit do you think that the voltage going to light the 300 + LED's in this project could be recovered to recharge the battery driving the circuit while driving a few less LED's?

Regards to all on this project,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Light on January 05, 2009, 12:13:24 AM

Thks, Mk1, yes all parts from jt plus caps.

â€œyou burry my stuff so quick
- What stuff? Anybody see the â€œstuffâ€? Pls give the reference.
â€œsince you need proof
- What proof is it? To charge capacitor? Can you run 5W bulb or comp-fan from it?
Anyway goodluck with your innovationâ€¦

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 05, 2009, 12:14:43 AM

@pirate

There are shape and iron compound in the ferrite may be also different, they all saturate at different freq,And that is adjusted by the resistor .
Also did you have the same gauge wire and turns as previous atemps.

I also posted some nice video i found on youtube (a few post back it), for less electronically incline .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 05, 2009, 12:16:38 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 04, 2009, 11:56:21 PM
One more of the ferrite bead JT.

...
. I believe the extra ferrite mass in the bead helped.

I don't know how to reconcile that with those that are using no ferrite and no core at all.

Bill

Great light, bill.

I ordered what I thought was the wrong thing last month an got a 1" long , where I thought diameter bead.

I am encouraged to make something of it now with this talk of beefier cores.

Thank you for your comment on how to reconcile these oddments.

We are doing things that are very out there and for which there is no documentation.

So... Please people - When you show a result tell us what you did and what it is. Like how many winds how many wires resistance etc. Maybe even say what you were thinking or trying to get.

(I don't mean things the group is doing in general, just when you go out there.) WE REALLY DO WANT TO KNOW!

My druthers,
Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 05, 2009, 12:30:37 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 04, 2009, 11:56:21 PM
One more of the ferrite bead JT. We used to be able to post more than 2 pics/post. Well, once Stefan gets the new software up and running, maybe we can then.

I am showing the LED from an angle so it does not look as bright. I believe the extra ferrite mass in the bead helped. I don't know how to reconcile that with those that are using no ferrite and no core at all.

Bill

@Bill

Well, that should be simple enough to solve. Let's have anyone using no ferrite or no core, including those using the blue inductors(look like resistors) to post their components and the voltage dc with positive going on the positive of the LED after any diode or cap and negative on the bottom of the negative end of the LED.

@All
Using the diode and cap is what doubled my voltage on mine. The size of the toroid didn't make a difference until I added the diode and cap. Before both were reading the same 1.5vdc. Now the small toroid reads 1.9vdc and the big toroid read 3.0vdc. When I added the Darlington transistor to the big toroid, it bumped it up to 3.3vdc. I'm using an NTE Electronics general purpose diode NTE110MP. The cap is 50V and I think 4.7uF. The writing on it is too small. I need to grab a magnifying glass. I just used the diagram that Jesus posted and I reposted a few pages back. Like MK1 said, I will play with the resistance and I also want to play with the cap as well. I'm also going to use a larger diagram of improvements that I saw and report back tomorrow night on how that goes.

@MK1
What would be a safe resistance to try as a minimum without frying anything? I'm using the standard JT 1k Ohm.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 05, 2009, 12:32:17 AM

Well, I went ahead and stayed up to make a few photos of the double JT. Yes, all wire gauges and other components are exactly the same as all of my others. As far as the number of turns goes, these should be close to the same as the ID's are all the same size and I wind as many as I can stuff through the ID.

Yes, ferrite (iron oxide) has many different compositions all of which give different results electronically. (I have machined a ton of wave guides for cell towers years ago) I have no idea what the composition is for any of my toroids or beads as they were all salvaged. The other day, I scraped the paint off of one I just pulled out of a CFL circuit and thought was ferrite but was powdered iron, which works in a similar, but different way. (according to wiki) So, my control here as far as experiments goes is poor as I don't know what I am working with exactly. Later, I suppose it would be good to order some stock with a known composition and then if we do something great, we can replicate it a lot easier. This was a good point you raised.

Bill

:MK1:

The above ferrite comment were directed at you.

@ Jeanna:

Thank you. Good idea also.

@ Timmy:

Yes, I agree 100% with this idea. I am just having a bit of a time getting my mind around this. so the cap and the diode addition made the ferrite size make a difference? Good to know.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 05, 2009, 12:34:43 AM

@timmy

Check the data of transistor online , and check for minimum voltage at the base , and try to get that.

For the core no core i think its a mater of freq , and and different working range.I did not think possible from so simple circuit.

@pirate

You could check the resistance in the coils for idea resistance per winding .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 05, 2009, 12:42:49 AM

@Goat
re: That is very impressive as far as lighting 300 LED's !!! Pirate88179 is up to 400....but...given what you learned in power recovery from the Bedini circuit do you think that the voltage going to light the 300 + LED's in this project could be recovered to recharge the battery driving the circuit while driving a few less LED's?

I'm already on this using a toroid off the transformer osc and rectifying the voltage with two windings one on top of the other looks good so far . will fire it up in the morning and give results . i think it will need a separate larger winding . Maybe i can wind a Fugi like transformer and an extra winding, large coil with a Big fat 4 inch toroid i got at the junk yard and maybe a 555 timer to play with the Frequency??? We can always step down the 300 +plus ac in another transformer for less volts more amps ... Later .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 05, 2009, 12:59:36 AM

@ MK1:

Thanks, I didn't realize that about the coils resistance.

@ gadgetmall:

Man, you got a 4" toroid? That's a $50 item!!! I need to check my junk/recycling place soon! Great idea about using another transformer to up the power from the too high volts. This is getting very interesting!

@ All:

I keep leaving things out of my posts I meant to put in. My connection of the 2 JT coils was done in parallel using some jumper wires. Thing is, this now tells me that this is more than just taking 1.5 vdc from the bat and upping it to 4 volts to light the led. In parallel, the mA's would have increased, but not the volts right? So why were the 2 superbright leds so bright if the 4 volts were now something like 2.5 or so from my connection? Neither one should have lit with the volts so low right? Or do I have Ohm's law confused? (series adds volts, cuts mAs, parallel adds mA's cuts volts?)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 05, 2009, 01:13:33 AM

Sorry i had to http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=2000718611607454884&hl=en

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 05, 2009, 01:15:56 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 05, 2009, 12:08:57 AM
Hey!! I just hooked my new ferrite bead JT to my other toroid JT and both superbright leds light up very bright! And, the JT (2nd one in the circuit) with the toroid is waaaay bright! I think it is getting some cumulative (added) energy from being 2nd in line. No pics yet and probably not for a while.

Bill

@Bill
I just tried hooking them both in series and parallel. I kept the big toroid JT second because I was afraid it would fry the small one. In series, the light on the small JT lit barely enough for me to see it had anything at all. The big one didn't light at all. ???

In parallel, however, both lit fully! ;D
This is so cool! Both lit fully in parallel from the same AA! ;D
How many can be hooked in parallel and still work?

How did you hook yours up? I wonder if it had something to do with that Darlington transistor. The small JT uses a 2N3904 just like yours. I wonder if there weren't enough mA to power the big JT. ???

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 05, 2009, 01:17:13 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 05, 2009, 01:13:33 AM
Sorry i had to http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=2000718611607454884&hl=en

RIP George

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 05, 2009, 01:35:18 AM

@ Pirate88179

Hooking 2 JT in parallel is no different than powering each with a separate battery as long as the single battery can deliver twice the current required for a single JT.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 05, 2009, 01:37:38 AM

@ Timmy:

Check out my photo if you can see how I hooked it up. Basically, I believe all I did was tie into the lead + from the bat on one end and tied into the - at the led - leg using jumpers. As you said, I noticed NO decrease in the light output and these are high output leds. So, the answer to your question about how many leds we can light in parallel is.....i don't know until we try it. Do we need another coil for every led we add to the circuit? Or, can we just add some more leds to the circuit and they will light just the same?

Keep in mind with the Fuji AA circuit and my 400 leds....they were all in parallel too, for whatever that is worth.

@ MK1:

I had missed your post on the electronic videos, thanks for mentioning it again. Also, thanks for the George Carlin video, I am still watching it. He will be missed.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 05, 2009, 01:40:40 AM

@All that have made a single jt

Take wound a extra wire 2 (if you got 2 times 7 turn = smaller 28 turns)time the number of turns take a smaller gauge wire single strand and connect led to it.

But for better voltage , make a diode bridge i never got less that 14 volts , the reason for the bridge diode is to not sent flow back in the toroid it limits efficiency but without it you can still get more led working.

@pirate

page 82 , Timmy you should like those video to.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 05, 2009, 02:25:12 AM

@ MK1:

I watched the 1st video of the ones you posted links to. Is a diode bridge the same as I think of a bridge rectifier? (4 diodes) This makes a lot of sense to me because in the video, he showed the wave form of ac and then after using the rectifier to make dc it now used the power both above and below the base line. I can't remember if it was Wilby or Xee2 that told me to cut the diode on my Fuji Aa board so I can use the power on both sides. Now, I understand what they meant.

I am not sure about the first part of your post about adding the extra wire though. I counted the windings on my standard JT circuits and they have 20 windings bifilar. (10 of each). One or two of them may have one more or less winding. This was with 22 ga. stranded wire. So, what are you saying to do with the smaller ga. wire? Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 05, 2009, 02:30:32 AM

@pirate

Ok i want you to ad some more wire try fitting twice the total amount of wire so 40 turns, then use those wire to power more leds there will be as much power in those that in the circuit. even 30 time more.

The last movie on transistor is real nice.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 05, 2009, 03:15:33 AM

MK1:

OK, I think I get it now. I take existing toroid JT and as I have 20 windings bifilar, (10 each) I should squeeze in another 10 windings of a smaller gauge and attach those wires to another led....right? It would be almost like a secondary, but not really. My guess is that this will light a bunch more LEDs from the same battery and JT circuit. If this is correct, I will give it a try when I can. Thanks.

Bill PS Finished the Carlin video. Classic stuff to be sure. Again, most young folks won't remember but he was the first comedian on the first show of SNL. I was in high school at the time.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 05, 2009, 03:22:38 AM

@pirate

You are getting warmer more that 10 but 40 turns, I am making 30 volts in a single toroid , and told every one , no body did,
The toroid is transmitting the magnetic pulse to any wire even those not connected to circuit more turns more output, i call it the pickup coil.
You have to do it.

Now you understand finer gauge, and get to next level.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 05, 2009, 03:30:00 AM

@ pirate

Take the 4 diodes in the corner of the transformer picture you posted on page 76 to make a bridge.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 05, 2009, 03:30:12 AM

@ MK1:

So, it is like a secondary right? Except, the input is not pulsed dc it is already ac and yet, you are stepping it up again. I have not even read anything about this in any of my books. I will do it. Going to be a busy week for me but, I will squeeze in some time for this when I can. Thanks for this info.

OK crazy idea time: Let's say I get this to work like you did. Then, what if we took those two wires from the "extra" windings and carried them over to yet another toroid? Still running on the same AA bat, same transistor and resistor on the original JT. Would this then jump the volts up even higher? Possibly the power as well?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 05, 2009, 03:35:08 AM

@pirate

I did do that, and pretty much anything works , listen i got 140 volt out of i single jt.

Coil in series = volt + volt
Coil parallel = amp + amp

I almost forgot start and stop the winding at the same place as the other.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 05, 2009, 07:05:58 AM

@MK1
Wow 140v from a single AA 1.5v battery, thats pritty good.

I have 2 outputs from my single JT on just 1 torrid, so I am happy with that, however I read Bills post he made a JT and wound another torrid and placed it in series with his 1st JT and got more power out.

OK Bill, now this is accellerating this thread, so I have just stripped my 2nd largest torrid, and as MK1 said pile on the turns, so I'm going to do so.
I will wind on, primary 50 turns
Secondry, as many as I can jam on it (go 4 broke ha ha) this should be good, Ill call it my JUMBO TORID
When this is done I will post the results, if it works or not.

Its taken most of the day to read up since late yesterday, man theres a lot of info here. lol

If it has high enough output, then I will rectify it, connect a capaciter accros this, drive a coil and try to capture radient energy from the back EMF to charge a batterty.

@IST
I havent seen your reply to my post yesterday, (it was a goodie ist), :D R U OK
I been to look at your videos, they given me some information, for instance, if you drive a coil with 12v DC, while holding the junctions of the coil with your fingers, then dissconnect the power to the coil, what happens? what do you feel?

Answer ---- a wacken great pulse---- this is the stuff we need to try and harness----- this is the key to get more output.

When a circuit is closed for the 1st instant, the electrons pileup (a key) if one could harness this, then you got more energy ha ha ha ist true

If you tune the on to off energy to a coil, (on time to off time) you have made the energy, trick is to tap into it. Am I right ist? yes

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

I look forward to ISTs responce.

jim

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 05, 2009, 09:09:55 AM

@all
Here is how I am winding my torids

Photo 0239.jpg = Get a small bit of cardboard, fols lengthwise to strengthen it, (hard plastic would be good also).
Cut a "V" in each end. The wire you want to put on the torid is wound on this former 1st.
0237.jpg = I have wound the amount of wire onto the former, ready to thread the bobbin through the Torids hole.
0236.jpg = Torid has been wound with the wire that was on the former.
0240.jpg = Preparing primary with ladies nail polish so any loose turns don't vibrate. (keeps it together when I put the Secondary turns on.

Question, did anyone notice anything different with my primary?
There are 10 loops, I began at turn one and put 50 turns on the primary, then looped it, this is the 1st of 10 "taps", I then continued wrapping on another 10 turns, made a "tap" did another 10 turns, made another "tap" until I made all ten taps, I let the wire run out after 100 turns.

All "taps" will be soldered to a 10 position single pole switch, I select what ever "tap" to feed the + volts to, this will give me greater control of the output of the secondary coil.
If the secondary coil is goiing to put out hundreds of volts, then it is better to alter the output by the primary.

The secondary I will wind tomorrow, TO THE BRIM. ha ha

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 05, 2009, 09:12:03 AM

@MK1 & Bill

Ok, you totally lost me here.
1. Do I keep the current winding I have on the toroid and add the smaller gauge wire on top of that?
2. Or do I strip the toroid or wire and totally re-wind it up with twice as many turns of smaller gauge wire instead?

A visual of the windings and circuit would REALLY help me out here.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 05, 2009, 09:25:09 AM

nicely wound ring ;D

electricme!!

great job ...

ist!

cant wate to see what you do next!! ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: rensseak on January 05, 2009, 10:31:49 AM

Quote from: electricme on January 04, 2009, 08:50:06 AM
@ Norbert

Well Well Well, what have we here, take a look every one, here is the 1st time this forum has seen a working example of an "airless" jule thief bifilar wound coil. I am impressed, and the photo is good also. :D

IST mentioned in a couple of his posts that this could be possible, the last pic shows many white LEDs working.

Norbert, this is impressive, congradulations.

You mentioned you have replaced the resistor with a adjustable resistor, again well done, I had thought of this myself but didnt have one so didnt worry about it, you beat me to it. Having a variable resistor here will give you a bit of "control" over what the JT can do, I suppose it could be see as a fine tuning of the JT.

I suggest you to try it also with a adjustable resistor. Not only that the frequency will change also the power consumption. Change of voltage at the base of the transistor will change also the frequency.

Quote

OK, lets get down to the reason you posted.

your voltage goes up and down when you alter settings,.
This is to be expected, as you change something ever so slightly, it will change something else, if the light flickers quickly, this may mean a crook connection. First clean your contacts on the breadboard, then the wires that poke in the small holes, see if that fixes the problems.

Yes, the last observation of me with the climbing and falling voltage is just because of to many alligator clips. The contacts are bad or lost easily.

Quote
The JT is running on the energy inside the rod (magnetic field), when you pull the rod out it is seeking the energy from somewhere, so I think it begins to feed off it's own energy it creates when the rod was inside the coils. So it seems to me the magnetic field produced by the bifilar coils can be utilised without the rod being there, as the field is in existance, energy can be drawn from it as long as it exists, hmmm
Has anyone else got some advice for Norbert?

Just to say it clearly without the rod the LEDs lights only when the resistance to the base of the transistor is almost 0 Ohm (or direct from the coil to the base).

Norbert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 05, 2009, 01:31:14 PM

@All and timmy

I have to be honest it seems like not many people get the pickup coil bit.Ok lets start fresh , first keep your jt that are working as is .;
Second Just add more wire to it. And this is really important rectify the output otherwise your multimeter wont read if.And will think i am pulling your leg.

Again don't destroy a working unit to test this . The joule thief is center taped transformer (and has 2 coils), And by adding a third coil around it you will get more I like to call if the pickup coil because its only there to pick up more voltage from the core.

If you still don't get it Read all my post .

@electricme

A jt has 2 coil a dual jt has 4 coil , and mine 6 coil , 4 of 12 turns and 2 of 48 turns the last two a call pickup coil.

And if you still don't get this then just do it.

I need you at the same level as me.

And by the way lighting led in parallel shows that you have 3 volt in parallel , it you put 4 in series you need 4 time
3 volt for it to light so 12 volt , that is the reason i use led in series to show my experiment .Anyone can ad as many led in parallel it dosen't really mean much.

Also look at my dual jt you see colors under the copper coil those colors are the jt coil.copper is the pick up coil.

The blue and green coil are on jt 1 and the red and yellow is on jt 2. Plus 2 copper coil Of 48 turns each on top , those are the one giving the output, and are only connected to diode bridge.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 05, 2009, 03:10:52 PM

@ Mk1

Adding another winding will give you something similar to the Fuji transformer (except in the Fuji transformer the extra winding is 1750 turns). A rectifying bridge is not needed to read the voltage from this winding if the meter is set to read AC volts (in that case the voltage is rectified in the meter).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 05, 2009, 03:34:14 PM

@xee2

You got that right , but if you don't use a diode bridge and use them in a closed loop with anything you will kill efficiency buy sending voltage the wrong way, the toroid is like a bucket of water always full and the joule thief make a wave in it we need to only pickup what falls to the ground , syncronyzing the pulse will yield bigger waves more output, if we sent what falls to ground in in f**ks it up adding opposite waves.

But yes you will see some ac .But not everyone check ac and dc reading.

The double jt could most likely give us a lot more when tuning the pulses .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 05, 2009, 03:39:51 PM

@all

I dont know but this thread is going too fast for me to follow.
I will do my best to read each post. There are 88 pages now, maybe when I come back there would be a 100.
Thank you all for sharing the information.

Happy new year!!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 05, 2009, 06:43:48 PM

@MK1

VERY NICE.

Thank you for being so clear.

I used my little torroid jt which has 10 bifilar winds and wound 40 times around that starting and stopping at approximately the same place using 30 gauge mag wire. (red mag wire from radio shack) The total length of this secondary was only 40 inches, so I threaded a yarn needle (fat-big eye-not sharp) and sewed my way around. :D HA!

Jim, you must be a weaver or a sailor to come up with the excellent suggestion to make a bobbin. very nice.

Anyway, I am only getting light from the secondary.

Did I miss something? do I need to just use the secondary to get more than 1 light?

Is it that I am using the 1Kohm resistor?

HELP!

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 05, 2009, 06:54:32 PM

@jeanna

So i assume the secondary (pickup and 3rd coil) , you can connect a led to it it will light, but preferable to use 4 diodes lets say 1n400x

Like on the picture , connect the secondary coil to the ac (little waves like in the bucket) side of it and the led to the dc (+ and -)side.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 05, 2009, 07:00:05 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 05, 2009, 06:54:32 PM
@jeanna

So i assume the secondary (pickup and 3rd coil) , you can connect a led to it it will light, but preferable to use 4 diodes lets say 1n400x

Like on the picture , connect the secondary coil to the ac (little waves like in the bucket) side of it and the led to the dc (+ and -)side.

So we will be using rectified ac, which is now dc with a better wave configuration (Like the guy said in the 1st video) and hence, make use of all the available energy. Excellent. Thank you for the bridge rectifier drawing. I was never clear where to tie into them, or where the output was.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 05, 2009, 07:20:57 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 05, 2009, 06:54:32 PM
@jeanna

So i assume the secondary (pickup and 3rd coil) , you can connect a led to it it will light, but preferable to use 4 diodes lets say 1n400x

Like on the picture , connect the secondary coil to the ac (little waves like in the bucket) side of it and the led to the dc (+ and -)side.

HUH?

The secondary - pickup coil- is lighting the led that is soldered between its wire ends.

But the led from the original joule thief remains unlit.

What does this have to do with additional diodes? (don't answer that yet, please.)

My question is this:

Is the regular led that is part of the joule thief itself supposed to stop lighting?

Thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 05, 2009, 07:37:04 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 05, 2009, 06:54:32 PM
@jeanna

So i assume the secondary (pickup and 3rd coil) , you can connect a led to it it will light, but preferable to use 4 diodes lets say 1n400x

Like on the picture , connect the secondary coil to the ac (little waves like in the bucket) side of it and the led to the dc (+ and -)side.

Can you possibly show a diagram with the bifilar winding and the pickup winding and rectifier and how they are connected? Does the pickup coil tie in to the current JT circuit?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 05, 2009, 07:51:11 PM

@jeanna

Both led are supposed to work.

Usually led light like the regular jt , but also on the 3rd coil but since it is only connected to the led the current sent to the led is then sent back
in the coil , that like i said is a no no. You be doing so are limiting the current for the regular jt ,it could also mean the joule thief is not properly done in the first place(there are other ways to light the led with same parts). So try unsoldering the led and it the original led work you will have your answer.

@timmy

Bifilar only means 2 wire , like the regular joules thief , just put one additional wire on the joule thief you have now, about 40 turns that is all .
Tell me when your done.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 05, 2009, 08:01:55 PM

Good morning all,

@ jesus,
welcome back, it has been a little while since we seen you, like me you have noticed just how fast this thread is moving, very fast inded.
I stay up until midnight some nights, and I comeback next morning and there are 3 or 4 extra pages to catch up on. phew must be powered by HHO :D

Keep going my friend, let it all sinkin.

@ all
Bill (pirate) mentioned a couple of posts back his confusion about "bridge diodes" I see jeanna has provided a nice diagram, well done jeanna, however I thought I might add a little to it also.
How to actually make a bridge diode from discreet diodes.

@ jeanna,
Thankyou for your generious remarks about my bobbin, I was trying to think the right terminology to use with this device, TA.

Jeanna, the LED connected to your actual JT should lite up, this is to give you an indication that it is working, but its main purpose is to help in frequency control of the JT.
The transister has an internal diode (as well as other parts) but its main function is to cut the current to the coil, so the collapse of the magnetic field in the torid will be picked up by the secondary coil of the JT.
It is this "juce" we are trying to harness, the sharper this happens, the more "juce" is produced, Similar to Stan Mayos 555 circuit on his HHO system.
Take a look see at ISTs utube videos, particually the one that has the see through relay chatting away merilly, this should give you a clue.

@ IST, and MK1
Thank you ist for your replies.

MK1 first, you mentioned you had 2 JT on 1 torid, is this right? how many output coils do you have, I am confused, might be me.

I will get back with some more questions for you both shortly, (a few hrs perhapse) I got to wind my secondry jumbo torid and get it all soldered up and working first.

IST, I saw the utube you did where the coil is facing a brown vertical 3" or 4" pipe? I listened to the frequency "sounds", from the 1st then 2nd then 3rd frequencies in the seperate videos.
hmmm I will go back later and watch them again, no comment yet from me, it will come.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 05, 2009, 08:05:32 PM

@electricme

Last page i posted a picture and more details just for you.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 05, 2009, 08:13:59 PM

@ Pirate88179

I think your one inch toroids are the same as some I used a few years ago. I was able to get over 50 volts out using only 20 turns in the following circuit with one AA battery. If you use 200 turns you should be able to get over 100 volts out which should be enough to light one of your 100 LED Christmas strings. May only required 50 turns, but since I have not tested it I put 200 to be safe.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 05, 2009, 08:44:54 PM

@ all
It is SKOOL time ;) and today we will learn how the humble diode can be put together to make a simple Bridge Diode.
You will need 4 diodes, they could be geranimun or silicon ones.
OK AC forms a sine wave, which goes upwords and downwrds (my ADHD playing up again), and this goes on as long as the AC is there.

What we need to do is to "rectify" this stuff going up and down to make it go stright out.
Take a look at 0246.jpg photo.

Get four (4) diodes and lay them out, see photo 0247.jpg and look at 0249.jpg also

Pick up a diode, place it in your fingers like you see in the photos, grab another diode and do the same, make sure you put the "silver" bar at the end of the diode the right way, then twist the ends together.

Now pick up another diode, look at the photo again, twist the end to the diode you want to join it to.

Look at your 3 diodes, double check the diode arrangement is the same as is seen on the photo.

Pick up the last diode, and place it between the last 2 ends that are free, have you got it around the right way, double check.
Twist its leads together.

OK Tripple check your "Bridge Diode" you just made, does it look the same as the one I made in the photo?
If it does, good O, you have a bridge that can do whats a full rectification of a AC voltage.

You could buy a Bridge Diode ready made, but wheres the fun in that? you wouldn't learn. ha ha.

OK, this bridge diode you can now use in your JT you made up, so you can do something else with the power except light up LEDs.

SKOOL is out now.

CAPACITORS is next lesson.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 05, 2009, 08:46:16 PM

@MK1,

I guess I need to sleuth this out.

I re-made my joule thief last week when I blew it up on the AAfuji camera ckt.

I also upgraded it to white light. It works very well. So, that isn't the problem, I am sure.

The new light on the secondary-pickup is lit beautifully.
The voltage across the 1Kohm resistor is 0.56V to the base of the transistor. (2N2222)

Quote from: electricme on January 05, 2009, 08:01:55 PM
Good morning all,

I see jeanna has provided a nice diagram,

not me, but I agree a very nice diagram.
I think MK1

Quote... however I thought I might add a little to it also.
How to actually make a bridge diode from discreet diodes.

That would be great. Please do.

EIT: I see you did, thank you.

QuoteJeanna, the LED connected to your actual JT should lite up, this is to give you an indication that it is working, but its main purpose is to help in frequency control of the JT.

Hmm, Its helping in the frequency control? interesting. Well that part must be working, since the secondary is making the led light up. 40 turns around and only connected to itself. I like it a lot. I plan to add a few more.

QuoteThe transister has an internal diode (as well as other parts) but its main function is to cut the current to the coil, so the collapse of the magnetic field in the torid will be picked up by the secondary coil of the JT.

I understood this. It acts as a switch. I suppose it is some horrible differential equation that helps to calculate what to expect... but this is new, isn't it? maybe we need to make up the math to describe it!?!
I am curious to know what to expect from changing the resistor.

So, I will be making a new one with a couple of variable resistors so I can watch what happens.

QuoteTake a look see at ISTs utube videos, particually the one that has the see through relay chatting away merilly, this should give you a clue.

Unfortunately, because of international licencing laws, Flash is not available on the xo laptop. I will have to wait until my mac returns home to watch any youtube videos.

Thank you both,

jeanna

MORE EDIT,

@xee
What kind of capacitors do you use in this application?
I have made the wrong choice too many times to not ask.

thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 05, 2009, 09:34:11 PM

@xee2
I made a mistake about giving gredit to jeanna for a post, It was you who posted it. :-[
Sorry xee2

jim

@ jeanna thanks for pointing out my mistake, I put it right, TA ;)

@all
jeanna is getting confused with capacitors, and I agree with her, they can be awful to sort out especially the ceramics..
So I did a swift google search and came up with 2 web sites

http://www.justradios.com/uFnFpF.html
http://www.radiodaze.com/capacitor_ID.htm

Just print them out and hang on the wall of the tech work benchs.

@MK1
I went back a few pages (end of P87) and took a look see, thank you for posting this for me.
I think I got it now, your JT setup should be, lets seeeee.

JT1 has blue & green wire
JT2 has red & yellow wire

Output coil 1 is wound in golden wire = 48 turns
Output coil 2 is wound in golden wire = 48 turns

But, all this shares a single torrid bobbin, am I right? and is this the reason you have mentioned about it must be "tuned" for efficency?
I think so, or one section will overlap the other and nullify some of the output.

Interresting.

One last question, in the jpg, I can see 2 x vertical black thingies, are they ceramics? if they are, I have only seen the white or yellow ones.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 05, 2009, 09:54:26 PM

@ jeanna

I use ceramic caps for most things. The part numbers usually stat with "CK". Ceramic caps are not polarized (either side can be positive or negative) and they are pretty indestructible. If you use tantalum caps you must be careful of polarity and the voltage across them.

Resistor controls current transistor uses. Lower resistance equals more current.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 05, 2009, 09:59:59 PM

@ electricme

You got it. But the black things are my 2 transistors .

The list of movie again. about transformer , transistor , diodes and pull push amplification(it works the same way a jt dose) all really simple and well made.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdZKxtc8cq8&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sZJgQfO5wg&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvHCQswnjEg&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZDxYHEuy_g&feature=channel_page

Thanks all, what a nice bunch.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 05, 2009, 10:10:01 PM

Quote from: electricme on January 05, 2009, 08:01:55 PM
Good morning all,

@ jesus,
welcome back, it has been a little while since we seen you, like me you have noticed just how fast this thread is moving, very fast inded.
I stay up until midnight some nights, and I comeback next morning and there are 3 or 4 extra pages to catch up on. phew must be powered by HHO :D

Keep going my friend, let it all sinkin.
.
.
.
jim

Thank you @electricme!

@all
I have a program to convert between the different numbers of a capacitor, I mean pf nf uf etc.
Lets see if the forum accepts it to be posted.

Jesus

Edit:
I could not post it as is I will try on a zip file.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 05, 2009, 11:09:27 PM

oooooowwwwwwweeeeeeeee 8)

you all are just days away.... ;D

i got a wicket deal today on CAPS !! big ens... ;)

a pic... lol

can you beleave 14 bucks each surplus :D

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 06, 2009, 12:45:05 AM

@all
SUCCESS
Vile al use hav ben snoozing, I hav ben vorking too much hard.

I hav vinished vindng my torrid wif da secondary vinding. :D
my vingers are verting, vay ar trembling viff de efervt, vut vit ist vone. ;D 410 loopies vit von da "vobbin" ass the jaeanna zaid.

I sence da IST is zomvare, is ist looking vor da rezolts, later ist, all in good time.
den I vill pooost dem vor every von to ceee. :D

Haaaa ha, ha, my tablites-o have vorn avay, ist time foo get serious again. :)

zim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 06, 2009, 01:07:31 AM

@all

I made this for you , so this is my single jt with pickup coil , it is in the blue box and each ends is to be connected to the diode bridge(after that you can experiment charging big caps or lighting many led lights.

In the red box is the regular led circuit but it has 2 led and it is the part that we should try to reuse to make initial pulse, but since it is high in voltage it is hard to feed back without effecting the current at the resistor that needs to be stable because it will change the freq .

So that is when i decided to but 2 of those on on toroid, to bounce energy from one side to the other.

***REAL IMPORTANT *** The number of turns on the coil work on a ratio factor at the same size. 1volt 4 turns IN = 5volt 20 turns Out .

But since there are 2 wire on the joule thief by making it the same amount you just double the voltage , So the initial potential is not 1.5v but the double 3v.

Sorry i try my best to be clear and simple in my explanation but i am a pour Frenchman,lol

But some german? Electricme you got zapped?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 06, 2009, 01:22:55 AM

@ jesus,
ElecCalcuCap.ZIP file

Thank you for finding that capacitor calculator, I right clicked it and saved the file to my C drive, I clicked on the exe and it poped up.
I dragged the exe to the desktop, it has a nice smiley face icon to click on.

As most of us guys here need it translated into english, so I emailed the software owner asking him if he might do this and put a activation click icon to click on to run the calculaton.
Other than that, good work.

@ ist
Nice work getting all those capacitors, I bet if you hook them all up together they will make a few Farad
What you planning to do with all them caps ist? I know you by now, you got something secret planned up your sleeve ha ha.

@MK1,
Thanks for the thanks, nice to get them once in a while.
Those transisters on your perf board, what value might they be? hmmm got to be a NPN and a PNP, depends on your circuit there.

I will take a look at those Utube addresses shortly, buut first I have to post my work I did today, ist is wanting to know, I know, I know, I just know, ha ha.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 06, 2009, 01:25:53 AM

Quote from: xee2 on January 05, 2009, 08:13:59 PM
@ Pirate88179

I think your one inch toroids are the same as some I used a few years ago. I was able to get over 50 volts out using only 20 turns in the following circuit with one AA battery. If you use 200 turns you should be able to get over 100 volts out which should be enough to light one of your 100 LED Christmas strings. May only required 50 turns, but since I have not tested it I put 200 to be safe.

I added that cap between the positive coming from the battery and the negative going to the battery a shown in the picture to see what it would do. For my big toroid, it did absolutely nothing. The same steady 3.2vdc and 98mA dc.

@MK1
The bridge rectifier is soldered together and tomorrow after work I will see about some more winding on my JT. Actually, I really need to just re-wind the whole toroid because the wires were too short this time and everything is crowded. I just don't like that. I didn't solder everything together very orderly so it's time to start over. I've got a little bit of magnet wire that I think will work for my big toroid. I will try it tomorrow afternoon.

Ok, I have to be up in 5 hours. L8R. ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 06, 2009, 01:33:25 AM

@electricme

Yes they are pnp and npn , i took them a printer board they are made to drive dc motors .They are a2023 and c5611.

@all

It is possible that you already have a ready made bridge diode in old power supply there the ones with 4 legs and a + and - on it.usually black like a big transistor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 06, 2009, 01:33:45 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 06, 2009, 01:07:31 AM
@all

I made this for you , so this is my single jt with pickup coil , it is in the blue box and each ends is to be connected to the diode bridge(after that you can experiment charging big caps or lighting many led lights.

In the red box is the regular led circuit but it has 2 led and it is the part that we should try to reuse to make initial pulse, but since it is high in voltage it is hard to feed back without effecting the current at the resistor that needs to be stable because it will change the freq .

So that is when i decided to but 2 of those on on toroid, to bounce energy from one side to the other.

***REAL IMPORTANT *** The number of turns on the coil work on a ratio factor at the same size. 1volt 4 turns IN = 5volt 20 turns Out .

But since there are 2 wire on the joule thief by making it the same amount you just double the voltage , So the initial potential is not 1.5v but the double 3v.

Sorry i try my best to be clear and simple in my explanation but i am a pour Frenchman,lol

But some german? Electricme you got zapped?

@MK1
Thank you very much for the diagram! ;D
My question is if you connect the ends of the pickup coil to the bridge, which ends of the bridge do you connect them to and what do the other ends of the bridge connect to? It does not look like they connect to anything in the diagram. ???

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 06, 2009, 01:38:05 AM

@timmy

You connect the pickup coil to the ac side of the bridge. That is also covered in detail 2 or 3 pages back.

@all

Good work.
I still have some tricks up my sleeves .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 06, 2009, 01:57:25 AM

@all,
Here is what I have done today, I have made up my secondary Torrid coil, it has the selectable tap in contacts, as I mentioned yesterday.

The idea is to be able to select an HT output with out getting the pinkies zapped, fried, sizzled.

There is a multi tap switch, 0-12, I checked with the multimeter to make sure where the 1st position was, this I isolated as 0v or just didnt solder any wire to it, it becomes in effect the HT off switch also.

We will begin with the winding of the secondary, the tap points, the testing of continunity and the soldering of each tap to the selection switch.

Photo0252 = Torrid, finally I got ALL 410 turns on the torrid, the inner hole became smaller each time I went around.
I got sore fingers, frozen fingers, crampy fingers outa this exercise, phew.

Photo0253 = Cut the ends off each loop at the "tap" point, (leave them as long as you can when wiinding them)
I found I had not left enough "wire lead out" lucky there was just enough.

Photo0256 = Test secondary for open circuit, should do this before you cut the ends, just in case the wire got broken wilst winding.
I was lucky, I got continunity as seen on my mini multimeter.

Photo0240 = Secure all the wires coming out of the Torrid by sneeking into the wifes or daughters nail polish (use the clear stuff) and put
several dollops where the wires come out of the windings.
If you tell them what you are going to do with the nail polish, they will screem No No No, find something else.
But its the best stuff that works, ha ha.

Photo0245 = 12 position switch
Photo0254 = Pick up HT switch, plonk in top of solder (third hand), rotate the shaft "anti clockwise" to stop on the end of travel.
This will be the first position, but as it will not be used as it will be OC, and is your HT off position.

Photo0255 = Test the switch, its OK

Photo0257 = all the "tap" or lead outs from the Primary are now soldered onto their respective positions.

Photo0258 = Locate the low tension entry wires, (Beginning and Ends) of the primary that was wound first, and "tin" solder each end.
Locate the Hi tension secondary (Beginneng and Ends), and "tin" them also.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 06, 2009, 02:03:31 AM

@electricme

Great work!!!!!

Nice rotary switch.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 06, 2009, 02:12:40 AM

@Timmey
No timmey, its lack of sleep, I been up toll past midnight 3 or 4 nights in a row, I'm just silly now, need to find a bed and put some zzzzz in. Besides, I like to liven up the forum sometimes lol ;D

Still got to take a look at some utube videos then see if I can find out what some transisters are. :)

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: rensseak on January 06, 2009, 02:14:18 AM

Hi @ all

i got this morning an idea. What if we combine the compact camera flash circuit with the JT? Yes i know it sounds crazy but what if the foto-flash capacitor becomes our battery for the JT? Ok to use a transistor is then may be not so good idea but as IS told us to use a relay for pulsing.

Norbert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 06, 2009, 02:23:24 AM

@electricme

8) just wild bro

you guys ALL ROCK ;D ;D ;D

this is history being written 8)

we are all apart of it 8)

pure joy!! ;D you guys likeing the TRUTH ? :)

it is being sung to you ......

isteam!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 06, 2009, 02:24:01 AM

@rensseak

Good morning ,I got to go to bed , but that is the ideas getting a good working unit and use that one to feed other ones,
And at some point the transistor will not be enough to do his work, and the relay makes a lots of sense , i bit noisy but real interesting comment,At that speed will be done by Easter, lol.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 06, 2009, 08:47:45 AM

@ timmy1729

Quote from: timmy1729 on January 06, 2009, 01:25:53 AM
I added that cap between the positive coming from the battery and the negative going to the battery a shown in the picture to see what it would do. For my big toroid, it did absolutely nothing. The same steady 3.2vdc and 98mA dc.

Cap across battery is not needed. At low currents it does nothing. But at high currents it will help keep current high as battery becomes weaker. It stores energy while circuit is off and then supplies that energy when circuit is on to supplement the battery current.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 06, 2009, 09:08:03 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 06, 2009, 01:33:25 AM
@electricme

Yes they are pnp and npn , i took them a printer board they are made to drive dc motors .They are a2023 and c5611.

@all

It is possible that you already have a ready made bridge diode in old power supply there the ones with 4 legs and a + and - on it.usually black like a big transistor.

Oh, excellent!!! I was wondering what that thing was! I've got one on that power supply I've been taking parts from! Thanks!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 06, 2009, 09:19:48 AM

@mk1
You always have good ideas to share.

@electricme
You are a good teacher.

I just have a question now from the information you gave us. How many turns you wind before you make a tap?

Nice work!
I condensed it on one paint file and converted it to jpg for viewing almost all of them in one page.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 06, 2009, 09:40:07 AM

@Timmey
Yep lots of goodies can be found in old PC power supplpies, if you can, try getting a reject TV circuit board, PC motherboard, or old video recorder main board, they have lots also. ;)

Someone mentioned I (ZIM) got zapped, here is how it happened, see photo ha ha. ;D

@ all
take a look at this I found googling around tonight, take your time, mabe we can use some of the material to work out torrid windings?
http://www.ee.latrobe.edu.au/~djc/UltraSonics/Ultrasonics.htm

I got my new coil working, the one with the multi switch, position 4 seems to be at fault, the winding is OK, the sw is US. :-\

OK this torrid I wound puts out 16 volt OC 1.2v under load with a LED IC, powered from the 1st torrid, it is in series.
I thought it would be much better, the output is rather dismal, never mind, I will hook it to a 12v AC supply tomorrow and see what happens then.

@ Mk1
I went looking for those transistors a2023 and c5611, they are made by SANYO, it appears you have installed a pair of High Voltage Darlington Transisters in your JT, these are not avaliable anymore. They are a 60volt 5Amp current High Speed Switching Device.
Their equilivents are 2SA2023 and 2SC5611 or BD139 and BD140 devices. :)

I'm going to get 2 NPN BC548s or BC547s or BC546s and make my own darlington just to see if I can. (I can I can I can)

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 06, 2009, 09:52:37 AM

@ jesus
I put 50 turns on 1st, then between every tap I put 10turns on.

Lookie at all my pritty pitches, day all got together, day looksie very nice indeed, thankyou.

its 12.51 in a morning here and I havent heard of midnight snacks, arrrrrr I got icecream ina fridge
hooroo all
jim
ha ha

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 06, 2009, 09:56:17 AM

Thank you @electricme

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 06, 2009, 10:32:20 AM

@ all
While I was eating my midnight snack (icecream yummie) I stumbled into a http fulla good stuff, take a look, I got some.
http://www.tech-systems-labs.com/freesoftware.htm

oooooh it really is good, nothing bad, real good, (makes torrids)

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 06, 2009, 01:51:47 PM

Wow!

A lot of information here on the past few pages!!!! I have to go back and read it all when I can. I have to catch up on my workload here first though. (sigh) I am still awaiting the arrival of my new parts and breadboard. When I get back, I will try to keep from falling behind. Great work all!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 06, 2009, 02:08:33 PM

@all

Ok my pnp npn , Darlington came from a old trash Sanyo dual Tape with ,those little tape motor are also real nice to play with there a bigger size and generate up to 6 volt when turned by hand( same time used in crank flash light)like i said you never know what you can find, when recycling yourself If you like this know that there are also motors in printer step motor giving me 12 ac at low speed.

http://www.brookstone.com/bs_assets/images/shop/large_300/544072_p.jpg

@ electricme

I was afraid of that, in my early test with many turn going around i got low results , it could be the overall design of the coil but with more test with transformer i now evaluate coil in resistance not on turn, The resistance/gauge in copper is marginal , so new material may give us more.
Or more resistance may just need more power to be effective and also the freq range.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 06, 2009, 02:48:50 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 06, 2009, 02:08:33 PM
@all

Ok my pnp npn , Darlington came from a old trash Sanyo dual Tape with ,those little tape motor are also real nice to play with there a bigger size and generate up to 6 volt when turned by hand( same time used in crank flash light)like i said you never know what you can find, when recycling yourself If you like this know that there are also motors in printer step motor giving me 12 ac at low speed.

http://www.brookstone.com/bs_assets/images/shop/large_300/544072_p.jpg

@ electricme

I was afraid of that, in my early test with many turn going around i got low results , it could be the overall design of the coil but with more test with transformer i now evaluate coil in resistance not on turn, The resistance/gauge in copper is marginal , so new material may give us more.
Or more resistance may just need more power to be effective and also the freq range.

@ MK1:

I found this on Wiki: (quoted below) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darlington_transistor

"A similar configuration but with transistors of opposite type (NPN and PNP) is the Sziklai pair, which sometimes called the "complementary Darlington."

You just gave me another crazy idea. I like your idea of measuring the resistance in the coil as opposed to just counting the turns....so...what if we put a VR in the coil windings themselves and therefore allow us to "tune" the resistance in order to tweak the best settings?

Maybe someone already suggested this or is doing this, I am still not up to speed on this topic. (I have a few pages to go) I am going back out into the field in a few minutes, I was just checking in.

would a VR of the correct range in-line with the coil windings, or on the core itself, help us do you think?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 06, 2009, 02:51:38 PM

Hi everybody,

So, as you heard yesterday I took my joule thief#1 which I recently upgraded to use a white light, and wrapped a secondary/pickup coil and attached another white led. The led on the 2dary lights but the basic light of the system never lights.

Then last night I made another joule thief in the same manner. It is different in 3 ways.
1- the torroid is called 'charcoal'
2- I wound 11 bifilar turns
3- the transistor is 3904
oh and also, I made the resistor in 3 parts adding up to 929 ohms and 2 are variable.

The light goes on fine as did the other one.

Then I wrapped 44 turns of red mag wire and soldered on a white led between the ends of the mag wire.
I confirm the action that the original joule thief light goes off when I add this secondary and the light.

Next, Iwound another 44 turns and soldered another white led.

both secondary lights shine brightly and still the original led stays off.

Then I put both circuits in || and all 3 lights shine brightly.

Then I put the 2 in series and the pair on the board with two lihts shine verrry dimly - and the jt with the single secondary does not shine at all.

This means to me there is plenty of 'fire' to act like amps but not enough for voltage on these ckts.

I will try to add some pics.
1-new ckt dark so it its parts can be seen.
2-new ckt with 2 secondary lights, and
3-new and old jt circuits in parallel showing the 3 leds of the secondaries.

jeanna

EDIT. Darn. I will be back to finish the pics.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 06, 2009, 03:15:00 PM

@ jeanna

The LED attached to the collector gets its voltage from the collapsing magnetic field of the collector coil. With the secondary coil present it seems that the secondary coil is absorbing most of the magnetic field energy of the collapsing field and so there is not much energy left to generate a voltage spike to drive the LED on the collector. Mk1 must have had weaker coupling between the secondary coil and the collector coil. Try moving them farther apart or use less turns for your secondary.

EDIT: Before you modify it, check the open circuit voltage of the secondary coil.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 06, 2009, 03:31:48 PM

@xee,

I like the less turns idea. That way I should be able to end up with more secondary leds. I have run out of room in the center with 2 leds.

I should make another one with more distance.

The resistors didn't seem to make any difference that I could see in the brightness.

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 06, 2009, 03:46:30 PM

@jeanna

I don't see the diodes, remember that by connecting leds directly to pickup coil is working but a no no because when the current goes to led it is coming out at the other end and you send it back in the coil,reversing the ripples in the bucket killing efficiency .

@electricme

My 2 x48 turn pickup coil are only covering half of the toroid and back , each one have there half of the toroid.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 06, 2009, 03:54:59 PM

@Bill
Where in the circuit do I connect the pot? I've got an unused one from 10 years ago when I made a guitar. Hey!!! :o :o :o :o Speaking of guitar... ...
Could there be a use for a guitar pickup? It is simply 6 pole magnets wrapped with VERY tiny wire thousands of times. I've got a spare bass pickup and maybe spare guitar pickup that I could try!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 06, 2009, 03:55:59 PM

@xee2,

I saw your suggestion.

Here is what I am reading off my dmm:

battery itself 1.25VC, also 2VAC
across unlit led 1.25VDC IN EITHER DIRECTION, also 2VAC

On 1 of the leds: 1.2VAC, also 0 .003Vdc
On the other: 1VAC, also 0.001Vdc

Wow, that is interesting.

cool!

Thank you

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 06, 2009, 04:14:21 PM

@timmy

So far i have not found any use for guitar pickups in this project.You are very welcome to try, I play and build guitar as well.

If anyone wishes to hear me (this is my blues project) http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=300671855

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 06, 2009, 04:17:38 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 06, 2009, 04:14:21 PM
@timmy

So far i have not found any use for guitar pickups in this project.You are very welcome to try, I play and build guitar as well.

Is there any particular reason for not using them?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 06, 2009, 04:17:53 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 06, 2009, 03:46:30 PM
@jeanna

I don't see the diodes, remember that by connecting leds directly to pickup coil is working but a no no because when the current goes to led it is coming out at the other end and you send it back in the coil,reversing the ripples in the bucket killing efficiency .

I am waayy behind you on this.

When The basic light went out but the 2-y/pick up light went on, I had to check out all these things I did up to now.

however,
I am unsure about the bridge rectifier. Each 2-y pick-up only gives me 2 wires.

Since the 2-y(that means secondary) Is not connected to anything else in this circuit, I need some directions.

Maybe there is a post I missed. I will try to see.

thanks mk1 - this is really terrific, and I appreciate all your help. BTW I am glad you said french. That will help me to understand what you write.

Jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 06, 2009, 04:28:35 PM

@jeanna
Look about three or 4 pages back . the bridge can salvaged from a pc power supply . is a black thing with 4 wires . its marked on it where ac in and your plus and minus out or make one with 4 diodes and the two wires extra connect there giving you a good dc out .

@ALL
DID you all know that the Leds produce voltage like a solar cell . they sure do .1.5 volts at about 10 micro amps . just shine another led in one and measure the voltage off the bare one .. i hooked up two in series and got 3 volts . just something else to think about here .:) I'm waiting on some parts for my big 4 inch toroid and a breadboard as i am tired of breaking the legs off my little transistors and led....Also do your toroids attract a magnet? . just wondering

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 06, 2009, 04:28:51 PM

@jeanna

Yes the pickup coil is not connected to any thing but the bridge diode.

And for the leds i know, i made a small solar power supplies that work from a candle , well placed i got 1.1 volt per leds from a candle,and from a regular bulb 1.5 per led , connecting led in series you ad the voltage , parallel you get more amps but still i got 6 micro amp that means that i should be looking at solar panels for amps.

Also the toroid when the voltage passes true it it is turned in a electromagnet. And the direction of the windings gives polarity to that
electromagnet .

And i really think that the led works on the jt because its AC.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 06, 2009, 04:34:42 PM

@jeanna
If the Bridge power is more than the battery then try feeding it back to the battery...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 06, 2009, 04:38:03 PM

right i was thinking the power from the led is enuff to make a transistor to turn on . if i take a high gain transistor i could multiply the current .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 06, 2009, 04:46:20 PM

@mk1
i meant without wire on them . do they attract magnets?? mine do. so im wondering if all the toroids from power supply's have iron in them ? or do ferrite attract magnets too?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 06, 2009, 04:47:19 PM

@ jeanna

I think you should just try reducing the number of turns. I do not think you will be able to correctly move them farther apart. The most interesting voltage would be the AC voltage between the secondary coil leads with nothing attached. The low value DC voltages you got were because you were measuring AC voltage using a DC setting on the meter.Adding a bridge rectifier might be interesting, but I think not having one is not your problem because all of you LEDs seem to be able to light up, just not at the same time.

EDIT: You can keep removing turns until the AC voltage between the leads of the secondary is 4 VAC when nothing is connected to them.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 06, 2009, 04:58:32 PM

@gaggetmail

Ferrite is mostly iron and easily magnetize just sending current , then become magnets them self, Soft iron in any shapes exhibit really good because they get magnetize easily but don't stay magnetize and also conduct polarity real easy.Harder steel will do the same but tend to stay magnetize a bit , reducing efficient, long answer but yes it will attract magnet but only when under voltage, so basically we are working with electromagnet. But the way polarity works with magnet the same can be said of the jt. The reason why the jt use 2 coil connected in opposite wound direction , because magnets give out more energy when in opposite directions.

But Ferrite magnet are possible.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 06, 2009, 05:19:10 PM

I@Mk1 . I know about electromagnets :) Ive been in electronics for 30 years . I built an inverter from a multi vibrator in the 8th grade back in the 60's to power a black and white tv in my dads car when we went on long trips . . My neos stick to a bare toroid . any shape ,tiny or large ,like they are made of steel . I was just wondering if your toroids stick to magnets . Forgive me if i didn't catch the answer..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 06, 2009, 05:25:00 PM

@gadgetmall

Sorry, did not mean to show you off , but most on this forum don't know that , and yes it is iron, it is sticking to it like glue as all my toroids do. ;)

And happy to see someone that has a better knowledge of the magnetic than me.

Welcome , your help will be needed.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 06, 2009, 05:34:21 PM

Ok thanks for the answer . I was told ferrite was non magnetic as in the old am radio ferrite rods . they are non magnetic and wont stick .Somewhere i heard that iron wouldn't make a good Jt but that Blows that out of the water . i guess I'm getting touchy at my age . even thought I'm a single dad with a 6 year old Daughter i still am Young looking and young at heart , but touchy ..I'm A musician too . Guitar and in a band for 12 Yrs.. So is every electronics person have a musical talent?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 06, 2009, 05:51:56 PM

Quote from: xee2 on January 06, 2009, 04:47:19 PM
@ jeanna

I think you should just try reducing the number of turns. I do not think you will be able to correctly move them farther apart. The most interesting voltage would be the AC voltage between the secondary coil leads with nothing attached. The low value DC voltages you got were because you were measuring AC voltage using a DC setting on the meter.Adding a bridge rectifier might be interesting, but I think not having one is not your problem because all of you LEDs seem to be able to light up, just not at the same time.

EDIT: You can keep removing turns until the AC voltage between the leads of the secondary is 4 VAC when nothing is connected to them.

So, you are saying to measure the ac across the 2 ends of a secondary without a led on it at all.

Reduce it until I get 4 volts AC. That is twice what it reads now on the one with 2 leds.

at the same time,

The jt with only 1 led on the 2-y shows no 0.00vdc voltage at all across the lit led. (even though the same meter reads 0.73Vdc across the basic led and 0.53 across the 1kohm resistor at the base.)

@all,
I do have a bridge rectifier and also I have maybe 4 or 10 diodes I could use in jim's fashion but I still don't know what I'd be connecting it to.

is this not a separate circuit? The 2-y is a separate circuit in a way, cuz it is unconnected by wires to anything in the actual circuit.

Am I now supposed to connect it into the jt circuit?
I need to have that answer before I can even begin.

Here is how I understand what I am being told to do.:

I put the 2 AC connections of the bridge to either side of the led , then I connect + at bridge to + at battery, and - at bridge to - at the battery.

Also a related question is,
since led's are diodes, why wouldn't I be putting them into a ring formation and getting the light at the same time I rectify.

Thank you all,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 06, 2009, 05:58:28 PM

@all

I bought 20 gauge brass and aluminum wire and here are my first result on brass, i used it on a regular jt 8 turns of brass (Jt16/16), nothing on either ac or dc ,
But the led works on it , so to rectified everything the volt meter doesn't see much.

Always check with a led it will show you that the meter blind in some cases..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 06, 2009, 06:04:34 PM

@jeanna

The pickup coil dose not need to be connected to the jt circuit in any way , only to the bridge, only to the bridge for now.Lets keep it simple for now.

I know it doesn't make much sense but do it .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 06, 2009, 06:21:31 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 06, 2009, 06:04:34 PM
@jeanne

The pickup coil dose not need to be connected to the jt circuit in any way , only to the bridge, only to the bridge for now.Lets keep it simple for now.

I know it doesn't make much sense but do it .

I think I am getting closer. -

so, on your diagram... at the ~ symbols connects to either side of the pick up coil because the ~ means ac and ac is happening on that pick up coil.

Now what? Do I put the led on the + and - marks? And do I need to do this for each one?

Am I closer?

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 06, 2009, 06:26:51 PM

@ jeanna

I think you are getting too much help. Mk1 has built the circuit and I haven't, so if he is willing to help you I suggest you follow his instructions. The voltage across an LED is usually set by the forward voltage drop of the LED and will be the same no matter what battery voltage is used to drive it. A resistor is usually used in series with the LED to drop the battery voltage to the correct LED voltage, but when only a small amount of current is available the resistor is not needed.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 06, 2009, 06:34:47 PM

@jeanna

You got it,now that you have connected the pickup coil to the bridge and the + and - (the one not used) are like a battery you can now check that voltage with your voltmeter or connect leds to it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 06, 2009, 07:45:27 PM

Quote from: xee2 on January 06, 2009, 06:26:51 PM

Thank you xee,

In this case the resistor is connected not to the led but to the base of the transistor. The led is parallel to the c nd e of that same transistor. No other resistor is used, to my understanding. (not in my jt's) I have seen various explanations. None of them predict this lighting we are seeing. And, you seem to understand why my led turns off when the 2-y is added.

I appreciate your help.

I am not sure it is too much help. I think I wasn't asking my question very well. I am grateful for all of it.

But, you really ought to build one of these, I thought you had.

I still am planning to try varying the number of turns in the 2-y. In fact I am winding a new jt right now for use with a breadboard. so I can make multiple changes.

@MK1

OK good. I finally understand. I am making a DC source like a battery.

Thank you.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 06, 2009, 08:17:19 PM

@jeanna

I just got the same problem you had lighting the led of the pickup coil and the jt at the same time , i fixed it by changing the led polarity Always make temporary check of the led before soldering that will help you greatly in understanding what goes on in this circuit.Leds are like diodes like in the video the juice only pas one way,it may light even if not connected in the properly if voltage is ac(in this case the led working is not a indication that its connected right).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 06, 2009, 08:28:26 PM

@ gadgetmall
Torrids do attract a magnet, weather they are working or not.
I wanted to see what was going on inside a JT when it was working, so I connected the cro to it (on the output) and watch the waveform as I brought the magnet towards the torrid.

The waveform began to diminish in size, the closer the magnet got to the torrid, eventually it extinguished the output of the torrid, and the LED extinguished.
Now that effect occured on my small tiny torrid, which was my first JT.

On my 2nd bigger torrid, I did the same experiment. (using the same magnet).
The output fell, the LED dimmed, but didn't go out entirely.

There are many variables here, different sizes of torrids, different strength magnets etc etc so this experiment I did only confirms that a magnet does cause an effect, on the output of a JT, but it dosent make the result set in concrete, if you follow my meaning.

@ jeanna
Sorry about leading you astray by my not putting the AC and + & - symbals on my diagram, I expected everyone reading it would know, So my apology to you and anyone else who makes this mistake, and I also have learnt a lesson.

I will repost my diode setup with coloured wires with a simple hookup setup to show you.
RED = Positive (+) BLACK = Negative (-) YELLOW = AC (~)

Diodes come in many amazing shapes and sizes, and have different purposes.

@MK1
I think the trouble I am having with my tapped primary torrid coils is I made the primary with toooo many turns.
To test this, I will supply it with 12v AC, then see what happens at the secondary.
If the output goes way up, then I will be correct, then I will have to make another torrid, I am not going to pull this one apart.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on January 06, 2009, 08:46:43 PM

Re: Magnets effect on toroids.

Has anyone tried holding magnets arranged in opposition or attraction either side of the toroid ?

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 06, 2009, 08:58:02 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 06, 2009, 08:17:19 PM
@jeanna

I just got the same problem you had lighting the led of the pickup coil and the jt at the same time , i fixed it by changing the led polarity Always make temporary check of the led before soldering that will help you greatly in understanding what goes on in this circuit.Leds are like diodes like in the video the juice only pas one way,it may light even if not connected in the properly if voltage is ac(in this case the led working is not a indication that its connected right).

true true, i have a couple jt's that will light the led(s) to the same brightness no matter which direction the polarity is.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 06, 2009, 08:58:38 PM

@all

When making test with magnet remember they are not the same on each side.
And yes it can stop the toroid from working since his it to strong for the pulse of the joule thief to pulse the toroid.The joule uses the magnetic
to transmit the energy to other coil ,but if the pulse is stopped it will not transmit because the pulse is to weak, and its also the reason transformer only works on ac voltage.The real question is where is the voltage going,that's the fun stuff.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: amigo on January 06, 2009, 09:06:45 PM

Quote from: Cap-Z-ro on January 06, 2009, 08:46:43 PM
Re: Magnets effect on toroids.

Has anyone tried holding magnets arranged in opposition or attraction either side of the toroid ?

Regards...

Hey Cap-Z-ro,

I did that months ago back when the first JT mania started. IIRC, on a toroid coil core, one magnetic polarity will almost (or totally?) extinguish and the other slightly enhance the LED light output. Although I wouldn't say it's anything to write home about, but then again I did not spent sufficient time with magnets and JT. I discovered Dr. Stiffler's circuit which could drive far many more LEDs at the slight expense of the PSU...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 06, 2009, 09:17:16 PM

@all And amigo

Good point amigo , since it take some voltage to get the core to transmit and also magnetize the core , if we take care of the magnetizing part with a magnet we should save on that part on energy , maybe be just pulsing with one wire more volts less current. just a tough .Crazy but maybe not.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on January 06, 2009, 09:24:50 PM

Thanks amigo...your results are interesting.

I suspected magnets could possibly enhance the output.

This puts me in mind of the huge spark 'Ist' produced when he used the corner of the magnets.

Could such an alignment also cause a huge increase in the output of the 'j/t' ?

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 06, 2009, 09:30:42 PM

@Cap-Z-ro

I think it could Work but the pulse would have to be as strong or stronger than the magnet.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: amigo on January 06, 2009, 09:34:35 PM

What bugs me here the most is nobody seems to be concerned with the input consumption. Everyone is rejoiced they can lit two or 300 LEDs, but at what expense?

I think the idea with JT is that you should be able to light LED(s) for a long time, implying a low current consumption from the battery. Further more with most of these designs there is a limit to which you can use the battery with the JT until you lose the functionality, LED will go off basically once voltage in the battery drops below certain level.

The point is if your JT uses 20-25mA of current then you might as well hook the LED directly to the battery source and not bother with anything because you are consuming the actual current LED needs to operate.

The best result seems to be around 45-50% duty cycle square wave oscillator. With shorter impulses the LED does not light up as bright, although the current consumption is < 5mA (depending on the circuit).

I think there should be some ground rules set here what the goals are. In my humble opinion some of those would be:

1. Usable light output.

2. Being able to connect more than one LED for greater light output.

3. Minimum current consumption/maximum battery source longevity.

and then the tall order one...

4. Feedback into the battery source for recovery of power.

Even though I am not a big fan of quantifying things, we need to start doing some measurements and see what the gains (if any are) of individual circuits. There should be a solid science behind this and a rational explanation of why. When I say solid science that means experimentation, repeatability, enforced with some theoretical background.

I did post a link to two ebooks earlier that most probably ignored. One was about LEDs, basically A-Z and the other about commercial power drive systems for LEDs. Both did appear to have interesting bits of info that could be used in our quest here.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 06, 2009, 09:40:56 PM

@MK!

Well well,

I just turned the led on my brand new breadboard joule thief and ... it lit right up. amazing. I am aying that alot. Sorry for the repetition. ;)

It is much less bright than the other way, however.

I am glad I made the breadboard effort. (I am not a linear thinker- it is a linear activity) This will make all this much easier.

Soon, I ill see what happens with a 2-y/pick up coil

@Jim,

Your diagram was perfect. I understood the diagram. I was not understanding MK1. It was my problem, not your drawing. In fact, I have not seen such a oood set of instructions. Thank you again or your work producing this.

(waittil bill gets back and sees his jt thread eh?)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 06, 2009, 09:43:53 PM

Geeze, I work all day and now I am even more behind.

First, a word about Ferrite. (iron oxide) Ferrite is NOT iron, it is a ceramic. Some toroid cores are made from powdered iron and the ones I have seen are usually painted with some color like green. These are NOT ferrites at all. Almost all metals occur naturally in the ground as oxides. You do not find iron laying about or aluminum. You find iron and aluminum oxide and these are made into the metals using a furnace.

All of the toroids I have used thus far are ferrite. Now, as someone pointed out many pages back, there are many types of toroids because there are many variations on the mixtures used to make the ferrite itself. The same is true of aluminum oxide. Lab testing has gone to great expense to isolate and control these variations and to be consistent about the properties of the finished materials. A slight change in one ingredient can alter many of the properties. The same with the firing process itself. That is why transformation toughened zirconium oxide exhibits properties that no other zirconia does because of the firing process.

Anyway, I just wanted folks to understand this. I spent over 20 years in the precision ceramic machining industry and we machined every type of ceramic material made. So when someone says my 1" ferrite does this or does that, it in no way means my 1" ferrite will do the same unless it is the exact same material fired in the exact same manner.
(For what it's worth, I am also a musician. I played drums professionally for about 25 years and when I was in college, I learned to play the guitar which I still play daily)

OK here are some photos of my 2 new supercaps that arrived today while I was away. None of my other stuff is here yet as it is coming from another supplier.

Just thought some might like to see what 10 Farad supercaps look like. I put a dime in the photo to show scale. Later, I will go back and read all of the posts I missed, which are many. Keep up the great work.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on January 06, 2009, 09:53:14 PM

@ Mk1 and amigo,

I have great expectations from the properties shown by the j/t...and of course the pulse would have to be strong enough work with the magnets.

In my mind pulsing is the key to everything.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 06, 2009, 09:59:50 PM

Quote from: amigo on January 06, 2009, 09:34:35 PM
What bugs me here the most is nobody seems to be concerned with the input consumption. Everyone is rejoiced they can lit two or 300 LEDs, but at what expense?

My AAfuji flash circuit used 1 AA battery for 2 solid hours lighting up a 15watt fluroescent bulb.
The next day after battery recovery it lit the same bulb for 1 hour.
The following day for 30 minutes.
I am sure there was another 30 minutes left in 10 minute spurts.
(That is the reason I pursued the AAA circuit. I isn't cracked yet.)

My apologies for not reporting this.

QuoteI think the idea with JT is that you should be able to light LED(s) for a long time,

Actually it is that you can light a led at all. You can light a led on 0.5v and use a battery otherwise considered dead.

Quote
The point is if your JT uses 20-25mA of current then you might as well hook the LED directly to the battery source and not bother with anything because you are consuming the actual current LED needs to operate.

I guess you have never tried to do this. Most led's won't light up with less than 1.6volt so you need 3 volts and resistor. And when you do this it lasts for months. It is hard to remember to keep looking it lasts for so long. I have a white on 2 AAA (triple A) with a 47ohm resistor that is still bright after 3 months. er or was that 4... see what I mean?

Your suggestions are good and practical. I think you will find many on this thread are working toward those very goals.

Thank you for your comments, Amigo,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 06, 2009, 10:06:13 PM

@amigo

My multimeter must not work well because a got 8 led in parallel fully (thats all the led a got)lit on a brass wire the don't show ac or dc on it , i would need a scope to see but i don't ,really weird .I am having a hard time getting that one.

Not easy to come to conclusions .Impossible ? The metre seems to agree .

7 turns of brass

@ pirate good looking cap!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: amigo on January 06, 2009, 10:27:22 PM

Quote from: jeanna on January 06, 2009, 09:59:50 PM
I guess you have never tried to do this. Most led's won't light up with less than 1.6volt so you need 3 volts and resistor. And when you do this it lasts for months. It is hard to remember to keep looking it lasts for so long. I have a white on 2 AAA (triple A) with a 47ohm resistor that is still bright after 3 months. er or was that 4... see what I mean?

Hi jeanna,

Actually I did try, long long time ago. :)

That was my point behind the posting of those two eBooks. One talks about LEDs, what they are, how they are made, the physical and electrical characteristics.

Because LEDs are different it is important to look at their spec. sheets before using them. Red, green, white, they are all made from different materials and have different semiconductor characteristics that need to be taken into consideration when designing a power driving circuit, which brings us to the other book I posted.

I do not know if/how much other people here read books but I would hope that I can spark some interest in pursuing the written word to go along with the experimentation. Someone has already done the fundamental research for us, we just need to apply it to get best possible results. :)

Thanks.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 06, 2009, 10:30:10 PM

@ jeanna and others,
Hope this explains how the "bridge" diodes work.

I pulled a plugpak apart, (glue still carnt wiithstand slight hammer plows).
It specs as follows = Primary 240v AC
= Secondary 12v AC
Actual output = 11.2v AC
See 0262.jpg

Next I soldered yellow wires to where the AC connects to the Bridge Diode
Next I soldered the other ends of the yellow wires to the free ends of the Secondary
Next I connect the multimeter to the RED (+) Positave, and BLACK (-) Negative wires.
Next I select DC range

Turn on power, the multimeter says there is 9.82v DC

Next I solder in a 16v 3300uF Electrolytic Capacitor (acts as a filter and smooths the ripples out of the DC)
and I see the output has climed to 15.30v DC

See 0264.jpg

OK that was a cheep and nasty power supply, no fancy regulator or filtering or voltage selection.
It was made just to show you how to connect it up and what it does.

BTW be careful when soldering in capacitors, put them in the right way, RED wire (+) connects to capacitor (+)
Black wire (-) connects to NEG of capacitor.
LOOK on the SIDE of the capacitor, there should be a STRIPE from top to bottom, this denotes the NEGATIVE connection.

Going to try something new, dont know if it will work until I try it....

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 06, 2009, 10:33:16 PM

@all
dont know what happened here no pictures, I'll try again

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 06, 2009, 10:42:39 PM

More interesting stuff.

Earlier today, xee2 suggested to me that I should take windings off my secondary/pickup coil to see when...

Also, MK1 suggested hat I should turn the led round if it goes out when I add the 2-y/pickup coil.

So, I made a breadboard with a joule thief with 11 turns as yesterday.

I understand from MK1 that testing with a voltmeter isn't going to show me much, so, instead of looking for when the secondary coil produces 4 volts as xee suggested, I stuck a led into the other side of the breadboard, and sanded the ends of some mag wire.

AFTER ONE TURN of the mag wire around the toroid, the second light went on when I touched the leads.

(the first light went off also so, I turned it.) And now, after only one turn I have both lights lit. I am going to push this a little. I will do the bridge thing later... this is way too much fun and my AAA is not fatiguing . HA

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 06, 2009, 10:46:12 PM

@Amigo

I saw your posting on led and power supply for neon, thank but honestly did not want to read it , since i am the type of person that needs to experiment and make my own idea , and having a new point of view , i think that slowly learning and allowing people to make mistake , will yield different result , and mistakes that would not be done by well trained and knowledgeable people do.

And by taking it step by step bring unity from chaos .

Discoveries are made by mistake so lets make some.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 06, 2009, 10:49:39 PM

@ Jeanna:

Great work!!! Nice job figuring it out. I am having big trouble keeping up with this topic. I guess I am about 4 pages behind now but I have hours of paperwork to do from today's activities so, there is no telling how much further behind I will be. I want to get up to date with my work and then when my other stuff comes in, I might have some time to experiment.

I owe a lot of you a lot of responses and I WILL get to them. I just really appreciate everyone's attitude on here and all of the help given to others (like me) that need it is also greatly appreciated. Great things can happen this way.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Thaelin on January 06, 2009, 11:04:23 PM

But Pirate, I thought all PI's had secretarys to do all the paper work for them. ;D

That is why I flunked out of being an office worker. I was made a file clerk and that
lasted about a month and I told them to shove it. Got to get my hands into things
that work and move.

8)

thaelin

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 06, 2009, 11:06:42 PM

Here is a try at a pic,

3 turns on that secondary 6 leds in series/parallel.
jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 06, 2009, 11:15:10 PM

@jeanna

Real nice, keep it up !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 06, 2009, 11:25:45 PM

@ amigo,
Thanks for your post, I noted your concerns about it seems no one has been to take a look at the 2 postings you did on LED diodes.

I will put my hand up and say boldly, "I still have not been to take a look" so in a few minutes I will search back for those addresses and take a look.

In defence of my poor actions I will say, there is so much to catch up on here, that I have been side tracked, but it is not intensional, I simply have been distracted by many information going on in this thread, ALL of it is necessary to understand what every one is doing.

This further complicates matters also, I have noticed there have been posts I have made, and no one has passed a remark.
I simply understand at some time whoever reads something I have posted and it just may be the piece that person needed to get something working or not, but I will not worry if everyone has not looked, or passed a remark about it.

I aws up until late last night (past midnight), for several days, I awoke at 9.30AM, stoked up the PC and by 10.30 AM was on the forum checking posts overnight, it now 2.00PM and I have just finished reading them, some have been arriving as I have been on the forum. But this is the nature of this particular thread, it is so interresting that one gets hooked on it, so many interresting experiments are happenning, and all at the same time.

So don't feel dissapointed, we just carn't do everything at the same time, although I do share your concern about no-one has taken the time or effert to go and take a look.
I posted a http address on a web site late last night, that has excellent info that I think relates to this JT topic, I notice no one has remarked, thats OK, no worries, but at least I know about this site and perhapse I could jog peoples memories about it later on.

Amigo you have a lot of knowledge about electrical stuff, and I'm sure I speak for everyone here when I say, we appreceiate you and everything you have done so far, and look forward to many exciting times ahead with you.

I am stuck in a rut right now, things not going my way with my last JT torrid, I had great expectations, and feel let down now, soooooo I'm going to switch tactics, put my stuff away for a bit and read up on LEDS ha.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 06, 2009, 11:52:21 PM

@All

I think it was the other day that I said my big JT was getting 3.3vdc at 98mA(or around there). Well, tonight I took a bigger cap and replaced the one I had across the LED. It was a 10v 2200uF cap. This is the JT using my big toroid bifilar, Darlington transistor, 1k resistor, and germanium diode powering a high-brightness LED. Well, the voltage went up to 3.4vdc but then I checked the mA. From what I have seen with my JT's, when I get an increase in vdc, I get a decrease in mA. Well, my mA INCREASED to 169 mA dc :o

That might not be really impressive, but with my limited tinkering with this stuff, I thought that was pretty cool! ;D

My "Wow, that's cool!" moment was when I removed the battery and the LED dimmed for about 5 seconds and then stayed a constant tiny glow. It was using a constant 2.2vdc at that point. My guess is that the battery charged the cap and when the battery was removed the LED kept glowing from the charge in the cap.

So, at least for this particular setup, increasing the cap across the LED from 50v 4.7uF to a bigger 10v 2200uF gave me 0.1vdc more and increased my mA by 70mA. I need to get some rechargeable batteries. Is there a possibility of feeding that current from the cap back into the battery?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 06, 2009, 11:56:25 PM

@timmy

Nice ! great work. More data, its all coming together nicely .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 07, 2009, 12:40:21 AM

@ jeanna

Nice photo, thanks for posting it. Congratulations on your success. You make a good experimenter.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 07, 2009, 12:40:41 AM

OK this will be today's last pic.

It has 10 turns on the secondary - not because the lights went out, but because I turned the remaining bit of wire.

and 15 leds being run off the main jt which has 1 led itself.

some specs.
red led V_f is 1.8V
Amber led V_f is 2V
white led V_f is 3.2V

Reading voltage from the first in series to the last in parallel shows 7.6V on the dmm
I am using a AAA with a 1.25 v reading.

Jeanna

PS Thank you MK1
and thank you xee2.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 07, 2009, 01:24:55 AM

@ amigo
I found the web site to download the Light Emitting Diode Information
For those who would like it, here it is

http://www.mediafire.com/?z2i4niwyf2y it is 18megs in length, the other is http://www.mediafire.com/?md0itlk5dgi

I also went to http://www.mediafire.com/?4qemem5nmzn this is a 8meg file carnt remember what it is about.

Fancy forgetting what the file is Jim? shame on you, slack man, lol

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 07, 2009, 01:46:07 AM

Quote from: Thaelin on January 06, 2009, 11:04:23 PM
But Pirate, I thought all PI's had secretarys to do all the paper work for them. ;D

That is why I flunked out of being an office worker. I was made a file clerk and that
lasted about a month and I told them to shove it. Got to get my hands into things
that work and move.

8)

thaelin

I hate the paper work!!!! but, we all have it and no....I do NOT have a secretary....I wish many times now that I did, ha ha. When I was in the ceramics business, I had 3 secretaries.....those were the days. (sigh)

@ all:

I am attempting here to get caught up on my post replies. If I leave anyone out, it is not on purpose.

OK you know what? Forget it. I just went back over 5 pages of posts and there is no way I can respond to all of them without increasing this topic another 2 pages. So:

To: (in random order) Mk1, Jim, Timmy, Jeanna, Gadgetmall, Thaelin, Cap-Z-ro, Wilby, amigo, Xee2, thank you for all of your posts. I still have a lot of links to follow and I will. I am still watching the videos posted by Mk1 and they are very helpful. Some of the stuff I knew, most I did not.

Jim:

You are down there experimenting your butt off! I know we all appreciate it.

Jeanna:

Thank you for posting your duration results with the AA battery. That was important stuff and goes toward what my electronics guy keeps asking me. "So, you can light 400 LEDs....BUT, for how long?" How long my butt! I just can't believe we can light all of these tubes, leds, what have you, for any length of time on a single AA!! Your information will be very helpful to me for when I speak to him next.

This topic is moving so fast I hope that no one feels left out or ignored. When I posted that I had lit 400 leds, only 3 folks responded that they had seen my post. I know more saw it, but they were busy with what they were doing at the time and I know how it is. I missed Jeanna's post where she lit the tubes AND the leds and did not comment on that until like 2 days (or pages) later. Jim has done so much here that I don't know if I will ever be able to catch up. I did see where he got zapped though, and this makes me feel a little better. Not that I want him to get zapped, but I have zapped myself so many times, I like being in good company.

Take care all. I have a lot to think about for when my breadboard gets here. VR's, secondary windings, multi toroids. At least I don't have to worry about living alone and being bored.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: AbbaRue on January 07, 2009, 01:56:47 AM

@MK1
You stated:

"My multimeter must not work well because a got 8 led in parallel fully (thats all the led a got)lit on a brass wire the don't show ac or dc on it , i would need a scope to see but i don't ,really weird .I am having a hard time getting that one."

Could explain this post a little more.
What do you mean by the Brass Wire? What did you find special about using Brass wire instead of Copper wire?
Are you using just one wire going to the LED's ?
Please explain your setup about this one a little more. Thx.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 07, 2009, 02:24:06 AM

@Abbarue

Thanks for asking , i was doing some test as we speak, I went to the hardware store and bought 2 types of wire a 20 gauge of brass and 20 gauge aluminium to try to make pickup coil , they would need to be properly isolated but i tried to make sure they would not touch , i did 7 turns , on a regular joule thief, I tested it on ac and dc , tried the bridge , it was giving me like under a volt ac or dc , but i still tried the led it did not work then turned it around and voila , led works that's all i can say i added up to 8 leds to it just as bright. Now i am trying 1 turn of brass , so far one led works , there is only voltage when led is on 1 volt.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 07, 2009, 02:24:54 AM

@ Abbarue:

Crap! I forgot to mention your contributions to this topic also. For that I am sorry. This is a good question you ask of MK1. Could it be that the brass wire has a higher resistance and this might account for his results? Brass is a mixture of copper and zinc right? This would have to have a higher resistance than copper or say, aluminum right? This is why I proposed using the VR so we can adjust this variable. I know Jeanna tried this but I am not sure she used it where I was thinking of in the circuit.

The "ping pong effect".

What I am hoping to try to do with the supercaps, among other things, is to get a ping pong effect going such that the current flows through the toroid and windings and transistor and lights the led. (diode) Where does the excess juice go? what I want to do is to set up the caps so that any unused juice flows back into the 2nd cap. If I can put a secondary on the bifilar toroid and feed that back to the 1st cap, then maybe the efficiency would be improved by an order of magnitude? This is to say nothing about combining this with the Bedini SG motor or earth battery. I have many ideas and so little "expert" electronics knowledge. The main reason I am so hooked on supercaps is the way they "imitate" batteries. All of the other caps I have played with "dump" everything they have in like .00002 seconds. All at once. The supercaps seem to provide energy at a rate demanded by the circuit until their energy is gone. In the case of my earth battery circuit, this was for up to 2 hours after disconnecting it from the earth battery. And this was a very small supercap (my first one) salvaged from a "shake flash light." (5.5 volt .22F) Here is a photo of that circuit.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 07, 2009, 02:40:41 AM

@all

I also tried aluminium 20 gauge 1 turn shows nothing on multimeter , but led worked anyway.

@ pirate

It dose go fast , i answered your question on last page ;)

By the way it was Jeanna that found that 1 turn is enough to light a led.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 07, 2009, 02:59:32 AM

@ MK1:

Well, I am the first to admit, I can't keep up with this topic. I wish this was all I had to do every day. Actually, this is my favorite part of my day, checking OU dot com for responses and posts. I pulled a 1.25" OD ferrite toroid from an old computer power supply. It was already wound with a bunch of turns of what appeared to be magnet wire. But, it was not wound in a bifilar manner so I am going to remove that wire and use this one to make a JT also. I now have 4 of these and that will make 5. You would think I would know all about these by now, but I don't.

I was hoping those zaps from the Fuji circuit would make me more intelligent and activate parts of my brain I am not using. This did not seem to work as of this writing.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 07, 2009, 03:20:20 AM

Quote from: amigo on January 06, 2009, 09:34:35 PM
What bugs me here the most is nobody seems to be concerned with the input consumption. Everyone is rejoiced they can lit two or 300 LEDs, but at what expense?

I think the idea with JT is that you should be able to light LED(s) for a long time, implying a low current consumption from the battery. Further more with most of these designs there is a limit to which you can use the battery with the JT until you lose the functionality, LED will go off basically once voltage in the battery drops below certain level.

The point is if your JT uses 20-25mA of current then you might as well hook the LED directly to the battery source and not bother with anything because you are consuming the actual current LED needs to operate.

The best result seems to be around 45-50% duty cycle square wave oscillator. With shorter impulses the LED does not light up as bright, although the current consumption is < 5mA (depending on the circuit).

I think there should be some ground rules set here what the goals are. In my humble opinion some of those would be:

1. Usable light output.

2. Being able to connect more than one LED for greater light output.

3. Minimum current consumption/maximum battery source longevity.

and then the tall order one...

4. Feedback into the battery source for recovery of power.

Even though I am not a big fan of quantifying things, we need to start doing some measurements and see what the gains (if any are) of individual circuits. There should be a solid science behind this and a rational explanation of why. When I say solid science that means experimentation, repeatability, enforced with some theoretical background.

I did post a link to two ebooks earlier that most probably ignored. One was about LEDs, basically A-Z and the other about commercial power drive systems for LEDs. Both did appear to have interesting bits of info that could be used in our quest here.

I just wanted to correct your post....that was 400 leds. Each led requires 3.0 vdc and 250 mA's to light. Now I don't really know how many mA's are in a AA battery but when I put my meter to one, it is no where near enough to light 10 leds much less 400. We are not creating energy here and this is not OU. I have seen your posts on this board and I KNOW that you understand more about electronics than I do, and I respect that. I just think that this JT circuit is already pretty great (in my mind anyway) and if we all work at it, we can improve it to be something even better. With all of your knowledge and experience, I know you can help us. This circuit is not the answer to everything and maybe not even to anything. But, it just might raise enough questions to help find the answers we all need and want. Thanks for posting here.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 07, 2009, 04:39:58 AM

@all

I made some experiment trying to make a small version of the Meg,I will call the Meg thief , So far i got some strange and interesting stuff,
I actually made my led sing a high pitch sound , I hooked it up to the bridge and got 66 volt dc per pickup coils so 2X66volts dc.(or a presume 2x120 volt ac)

This is a picture of the joule thief a modified to Meg spec , i saved the 2 windings already there and made 2 coils where the tie rap are
They are made 7 turn on each side of the toroid(regular 22 gauge covered single strand(like phone lines)) , and used a 2n3904 and 1 k resistor. And even added a mini neo magnet taken from a cd drive reading head (but the led cried mercy whit or without it). The turns that are on the picture are 24 on both half , 12 going up and 12 down so both ends are in the same location larger than 20 gauge.

Sorry i don't have camera , i wish i could show you , i got friend coming over this week-end i hope they got a camera.

So far this little circuit has showed incredible possibility.

Even a brand new 9 volt don't make that led sing, lol

The sun will rise soon , literally good night .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 07, 2009, 04:53:09 AM

MK1:

Nice work! So, you made this circuit scream like the Fuji circuits then? That must mean there is some serious oscillation going on there. My wire has always been the 22 ga. stranded wire and I am guessing here, the only difference would be the single wire would have less resistance maybe? (maybe not) I didn't see it in the photo but you said you used the bridge rectifier? (I wish we could see the photos while posting here) So, if correct, then your output was pure DC. what was the purpose of the tie wraps? I have seen this on toroids before but I have no idea why folks use them.

Please forgive all of my stupid questions. I am up late and I can't sleep. Do you think it was the 3904 transistor that was making that sound? Have you tried to isolate where it was coming from? On the Fuji circuit, it was the transformer emitting the noise as far as I could determine. Someone said this was due to the wires in the coils moving at high freq. vibration. Do you think the wires on your toroid were moving making this sound? ***EDIT*** I see you said it was the LED.

OK, enough questions for you. Excellent work. One day, folks will go back and look at what we have all done and say......"So, that's how they came up with this."

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 07, 2009, 05:07:55 AM

@pirate

The picture is the toroid before modification, and the tie wraps came with the toroid i just used it like that,
I Really wish i had a cam, it is really the led , the coil doesn't move it i reverse the led it lights but doesn't buzz.

I will have to order a camera from the universe , but it already gave clear seeing and that is already enough, ;)

I guess that toroid told me to leave her be . I am just rewarded.

The jt the smallest high power transformer. :o Next the tpu thief. :o

Edit: the single strand stays on the toroid easily and packs tight , more turns per space.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 07, 2009, 06:19:34 AM

@ MK1
Thats very good news you have there, this is a good success for you and gives us all a boost as well.
I have only wound my torids with very fine wire, it came out of the microwave cooling fan field coil, I don't want to rush this, but I will begin to wind torrids with thicker wire shortly.

@ all

I'm charging Caps, think I'm charging bats, and making 12v fans work, but only one at a time.

Yesterday, I was very dispondent over the failure of my 2nd torrid coil, the one I made up with the 12 tap switch attatched to it.
To recap, the torrid is being driven by my 1st Jule Thief, by one of the 2 seperate coils.

The second torrid HT coils were getting extreamly hot, so there must have been a short or something else causing this effect.
There was no output from the HT section, nothing. So I put it aside and went to bed.

Today I made a couple of changes to this HT coil, I took the bridge diode out, on the LT input, replaced it with a single diode in line with the output from the JT, hooked up the multimeter to the HT and saw voltage. I clicked the switch shaft and the output voltage rose each time the switch went to another position. I added another Diode to the other side of the feed from the JT and this improved it further.

I got it to get up to 70 volts AC, so that was nice to see.

I now decided to add the Bridge Diode I had previously removed, and put it on the HT output, this rectified the output voltage.
I managed to charge a 400v 220uF capacitor, to 40volts, this gave a good snap on shorting the clips.
I replaced this with a 200v 470 uF capacitor, it charged to 35v, It discharged similar

I have a 35v 1000uF capacitor, and this has been on this circuit for about 2 hrs with no probs

I connected a second NiCd as a batt to be recharged, it is too soon to see if it is charging.
I connected a 12v PC power supply fan (0.11A) to the 35v 1000uF cap and it ran for a couple of seconds.
I removed this and replaced it with a smaller 12v DC fan (.08A) and it ran for about 3 seconds.

Next step is to remove the 12v DC fan and try it with a 5v Laptop miniture fan, just to see if this will work for a longer period of time.
I think it will, lets hope the smoke stays inside it ha ha, however I might put a 500ohm pot in series with it, better the pot fries than the 5v fan, they are too hard to come by.

Will get back to you all to let you know what happens.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: rensseak on January 07, 2009, 07:10:16 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 07, 2009, 02:59:32 AM
@ MK1:

Well, I am the first to admit, I can't keep up with this topic. I wish this was all I had to do every day. Actually, this is my favorite part of my day, checking OU dot com for responses and posts. I pulled a 1.25" OD ferrite toroid from an old computer power supply. It was already wound with a bunch of turns of what appeared to be magnet wire. But, it was not wound in a bifilar manner so I am going to remove that wire and use this one to make a JT also. I now have 4 of these and that will make 5. You would think I would know all about these by now, but I don't.

I was hoping those zaps from the Fuji circuit would make me more intelligent and activate parts of my brain I am not using. This did not seem to work as of this writing.

Bill

You know what, I have here also a 1.25" toroid from an old computer power supply and also not wound bifilar. But i conect two of the wires in the JT fashion and it lits also the LEDs.

Norbert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 07, 2009, 08:29:03 AM

@all

I just finished reading all the posts that I was behind.
I congratulate all of you. We are going on the right direction.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 07, 2009, 08:29:13 AM

Quote from: rensseak on January 07, 2009, 07:10:16 AM
You know what, I have here also a 1.25" toroid from an old computer power supply and also not wound bifilar. But i conect two of the wires in the JT fashion and it lits also the LEDs.

Norbert

I'm thinking that 1.25" must be the size of my "big" toroid then because you're describing how I found it. When I took it out of the power supply, there were like 8 wires connected to the board coming from the toroid. It was wrapped with decently thick solid copper wire. I'm guessing 20 or 22 gauge because it was easier to unwind than my 18 gauge. I might try using 18 gauge on the big toroid when I re-wind it.

@All
Is 18 gauge too thick for a JT?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 07, 2009, 08:34:42 AM

@timmy

The gauge will work, try only if you share results ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 07, 2009, 08:36:51 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 07, 2009, 08:34:42 AM
@timmy

The gauge will work, try only if you share results ;D

I always share my results.

My concern was, and this is where my electrical ignorance comes in, that wire that thick would get hot.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 07, 2009, 08:46:15 AM

@all

I want your help on this.
I used the flash circuit as a feed back to the source on a circuit diagram.
I have not been able to test it.
Could anyone having the means to do it, can test this idea for the benefit of us all?

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 07, 2009, 10:51:19 AM

jenna

you do a great job for the ones to follow ;)

awsome

i cant name everyone ....

but to all great work!!

your done....

im a gonna have to fade away YA KNOW !! ;)

all i ask is to PLAY SAFE USE COMMON SENCE ... BE WIZE ...

and REMEMBER ME ... :) i did this for everyone ......

it works .... you will have it all in your own time ;)

stay safe ....

william and the isteam!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 07, 2009, 11:43:03 AM

@Inno

WTF Times are tough kid that's why we're all here. Putting it all out there and contributing to the collective mind. Your efforts do not go unnoticed.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on January 07, 2009, 11:53:08 AM

Perhaps 'Ist' feels unwelcome here as a result of the 9 karma knives in his back...seen next to his name.

Unfortunately it appears Stefan's recently implemented 'karma system' is being used by a minority of malcontents here as a weapon.

Do not be fooled by an intentionally engineered false reading 'Ist'.

I had 1 negative 'karma smite' 2 hours ago...and now I have 4.

Stefan will soon realize what is going on and will likely scrap the idea.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 07, 2009, 11:54:48 AM

@ ALL
Is enamel coated magnet wire ok for multiple windings? Or will it short out if I, for instance, make one winding clockwise and then put a counter-clockwise winding on top of that? Or should I just use insulated wire for multiple windings?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 07, 2009, 12:43:35 PM

@IST

Donâ€™t leave the thread. You do help more than you and a lot of people on here realize. Donâ€™t mind the douche-bags. That karma system is easily abused. Just wait one hour and you can applaud or smite the same person again. We all have our different personalities on here. They may clash at times, but most of us are here for common purposes. I donâ€™t get everything you post, but I am grateful for the ones that help me out. We need all the minds we can get. It would be a shame for you to leave because some people were never taught basic manners.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 07, 2009, 01:33:22 PM

guys it is ok it is not this thred .... :)

you guys have done soooooo well i am proud of all of YOU...... you dont need help .......and soon i cant talk of my work....... you understand you have it ;D

a pic to show my hard work ;D

KNOW IT CAN BE DONE !!

PEACE TO ALL :)

ISTEAM!!

ps will no hard feelings bro ... we are ALL 1 BIG FAMILY :)

i will cut down anyone who cuts down tesla ;)

GOT PLANET ?? NEED POWER?? :o :o :o :o :o :o :) :) :) ;D

OK last song cuz i love this song

3 wize men ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YBaPxbgagc

where are YOU NOW!?!?!?!?!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 07, 2009, 02:24:23 PM

@all

Well it seems a have made enemies,All i see from that is a reflection of the world ,always tools to discredit people and limit knowledge,
most people still what to get rich quick, some are here for that, some are here to learn and so to share knowledge.Is that really what is needed.
If people help each other instead of making money of there back, we would not be in this mess to begin with.Most of what is done here is not much different then 100 years ago except tesla was a genius but was a man, Today modern man has the brain pickup where he left off,if we use it, most of the time we just complicate stuff since its supposed to be,but really is not.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 07, 2009, 04:59:40 PM

@all

I am sorry to revise my last experiment reading on the meg thief , it still gives me 66 volts dc when rectified , but only 25ac ? I got this wrong or is this strange, i will try some type of grounding earth or the neg of battery.So i got two coil giving me 66 volt dc.

If anyone has a tough on this , input would be welcomed.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 07, 2009, 05:58:53 PM

@ Mk1

It is certainly possible. But, without providing more information about what you are doing it is hard to tell if there are any errors. The following is some info on AC that I put together. I hope this helps.

EDIT: These statements are generally true. But when the AC is not a pure sine wave the only way to really make good measurements is to use a scope.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 07, 2009, 06:00:11 PM

@ All:

Nothing really amazing here. I had a few minutes so I charged up one of my new supercaps using a regular battery (1.5 vdc) for just a few seconds. Then I took some jumpers and hooked to the - on the empty bat. holder and the + on my switch. Flipped the switch and.....it lights...very brightly too. I had some other things to do so I just let it run for the fun of it. It has been 16 minutes and it is still on. (Maybe 60% brightness?) The led is a 10mm superbright, white, 28,500 MCD.

Bill ***EDIT*** 19 minutes and the led is all but out. Remember this was only running on the capacitor, no other power source.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 07, 2009, 06:31:51 PM

@pirate

Reel nice those are incredible parts, there not called super for nothing.

This is great.

Some idea on what to do next ,we will need so see how it works when it is feed by a pickup coil , maybe making a special one just for it with as many turns then the jt coil to get the initial impulse back, the real big problem i see so far is to feed it 1.5 volt because i have made experiment with higher voltage on the regular joule thief and at 3 volt you get a 40% lost in energy(it could be limited at input but the jt output about 6 volt at the led and would need to be down at 1.5 in the cap) . But if you only take as much as given it may be enough to get resonance, self resonance.If we can get it to resonate we could tap that energy real easy .

Remark on the TPU unit, it needs 3 freq , its like 3 note make a cord on a piano or guitar we should think of that when tuning it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 07, 2009, 06:44:40 PM

MK1:

Thanks. You raise some good points here. I was hoping to "tap" into the coil via induction to fill one cap. I have to be careful as these SCs (supercaps) are only rated for 2.7 vdc. 2 of them together might handle the 6 volts, but it is still pushing it a bit. I need to get more of these little boogers, maybe some at 5.5 vdc. I have to wait for more $$ to come in.
When I get more time, I will try to catch up to you and the others with the secondary windings, etc. I just need an entire day to experiment with all of this.

PS I gave you and all of the others here a "+" for the Karma thing. If it were really like karma, for every "-" someone gives, it would come back to them as a "-" as well. Inverse for the "+". I don't take it personally because I think it is kind of dumb. We all have much more important stuff to do.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on January 07, 2009, 06:50:26 PM

" Remark on the TPU unit, it needs 3 freq , its like 3 note make a cord on a piano or guitar we should think of that when tuning it. "

@Mk1,

At the risk of ostracization for mixing with someone with as few karma smites as yourself :), might those 3 frequencies be dc, magnetic, and cold electricity ?

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 07, 2009, 07:05:55 PM

@Bill,
Thank you for doing that and timing it. I do like the idea to use a supercap as the ultimate rechargeable battery.

Quote from: Mk1 on January 07, 2009, 06:31:51 PM

Some idea on what to do next ,we will need so see how it works when it is feed by a pickup coil , maybe making a special one just for it with as many turns then the jt coil to get the initial impulse back, the real big problem i see so far is to feed it 1.5 volt because i have made experiment with higher voltage on the regular joule thief and at 3 volt you get a 40% lost in energy(it could be limited at input but the jt output about 6 volt at the led and would need to be down at 1.5 in the cap) . But if you only take as much as given it may be enough to get resonance, self resonance.If we can get it to resonate we could tap that energy real easy .

Remark on the TPU unit, it needs 3 freq , its like 3 note make a cord on a piano or guitar we should think of that when tuning it.

MK1,

Could you provide some closer details on that 40% loss of energy, please?

I have been repeating last night's breadboard jt experiment only I am starting at the edge of the board. I just took a break before I continue.

I want to add the bit about polarity. It is such a strange thing.

I wound the first turn of the secondary and saw nothing. no light... so I turned the led and it lit brightly --this is the free hanging led, mind you, not the one that is part of the jt. I will give more details later, but since I am breaking, I took the chance to say this.

I made the decision to have the leds of the secondary start on the neg side so I wound this first wire of the secondary the other way around.

I would not want to say cw or ccw because this changes if you put your observer's eye on the opposite side, but the other way makes a difference,

It is a cool mystery.

Anyway, about the tpu thought. I decided a few minutes ago to use smaller multiple secondaries and see how it goes with 15 more lights. I'll be done with 15 more lights tonight if not more. I'll let you know, of course.

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 07, 2009, 07:18:36 PM

@Cap-Z-ro

I have had a lot of tough on those same question and my conclusion are, magnets and and electricity are the same it is just the angle you look at it, they are 90 degrees apart, but are the same thing , If you have energy in a solid state it is impossible to see unless it is agitated , So if shake the hell of that energy you will see its potential.Freq is a wave , a speed , a sound , if you get the right maths like guitar a major cord sounds like it fits note (but sure a augmented cord would work better, since it is more symmetrical), but with more volume but it took only the energy from 3 single note.The issue then is tuning the cord so that the toroid vibrates, if the core is under magnetic stress it will show its potential, each toroid core as a freq depending on its size and composition.

To me so far dc seems ok since switching it on and off you get the same as a effect as ac up and down , Not switching will not work since it only transmit its energy when the field collapses.

So lets make them sing.

Then the pickup coil are details.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 07, 2009, 07:32:49 PM

@ jeanna

I made some experiment with the regular jt with a 1.5 volt source and a 3 volt , with the help of the pickup coil and bridge diode I tested the effect of voltage on the output and it was lower on the 3 volt then on the regular 1.5 volt , that means that the resistance at higher voltage would need to be adjusted , but since it would be then constantly changing its real hard to do.So we need to feed it a lower voltage but as many electrons or more but at 1.5 volt, As i can now see since your last night experiment that 1 turn is really powerful and we can put many of those.

@all

Magnet are magic , but you know that since you are a kid. Show me electricity a will magnets.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on January 07, 2009, 07:52:25 PM

@ Mk1

One reason I think magnets are involved is the presence of 2 ring magnets in key element of the microwave oven.

I'm not sure what you mean by a 90 degree difference in the two forces though...I just have a laymans knowledge in this field.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 07, 2009, 08:28:56 PM

@Cap-Z-ro

Think of a electromagnet like volt running in a wire around a core at 90 degrees from the core producing a magnet effect.
The reverse is also possible , the permanent magnet are the reason any conventional energy device are working, it needs some sort of energy to spin the magnet shaft therefore pulsing the stationary coil at 90 degree from it, In a transformer the coil that is connected to the wall socket the primary is not connected to the secondary output coil in any way, the energy is traveling by magnetic current (this is the hot stuff, it can't be calculated by a volt meter but still there), that magnetic current is tricky because you cant see it unless you use it .That probably why some people don't get it , it needs faith to try. So the transformer are 2 electromagnets on a single core first one sending and second receiving what its secondary coil is design for.

So the electric current runs at 90 degrees from the core , creating a magnetic current (you can not see but use)

Try this find some appliance around the house that as a big transformer to work it , find a project transformer to test and place it on top of the other transformer and test the unconnected one , if its well placed it will pickup the voltage from the appliance transformer.

And the magnetron deserve its owns post, It is a really nice thing they got in the microwave, they should not lets us play with that
waves at the speed of light.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on January 07, 2009, 08:44:42 PM

Thanks taking the time help me understand Mk1.

I keep getting the feeling that the concept behind the j/t could be scaled up to produce abundant energy...and magnets are involved in the set up somehow.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 07, 2009, 08:58:50 PM

@Cap-Z-ro

In the jt the coil are like a electromagnet same as magnet except we take a little voltage to make them.Traditional system use magnets that passe quickly in front of a coil like in a alternator , the speeds is limited by the speed of the car motor and that changes the output .

So if we use electromagnet we can create that same effect but with electricity , so we don't have any moving parts like in the motor, and we can make the same effect by switching on and off magnets , Its the same effect as a bedini motor but without movement.

So i resume , In the joule thief we have , meg , tpu, bedini they are all cousins .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 07, 2009, 09:40:39 PM

@all
I think I will try a little something a bit different perhapse.
I made a Tiny Winy Video on ultra low resolution so I can post it here.
I got a small CPU fan to work by my JT, but it only works for a few seconds.
Then I have to wait until the cap recharges, press the sw, and away it goes again.

What do you all think of this?
ist, where art thou, hibernation is over ist, come thou out and remark if you please.

jim electricme

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 07, 2009, 09:46:30 PM

@electricme

Great, real nice , I think that if you make the transistor switch faster buy tuning the resistor it may be enough to make it work.
That is great , where do you guys get all those idea.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 07, 2009, 09:56:48 PM

@mk1

I think I am starting to see why you want to rectify this. Let me describe what is happening in a general way.

I added the second pickup coil. It immediately stressed the system.

Now after making 9 turns - almost as many as the first group has, I am seeing the first group go very dim when the second group goes on. I have had to add more turns to gain the same brightness in this second group and now it is affecting the first group.

However, the voltage of the first group is unchanged with any of these things. The voltage of the second group with its second secondary are showing 1/3 the amount of voltage across them.

I don't know if this is voltage being drawn from the battery or voltage coming from ac bouncing back and forth. (It must be a combination since it is drawing from the battery, but it adds up to way more than the total voltage in the battery.)

Also, I have not seen the 7.5 volts in the whole system as I did last night. If I put the voltage probes between the - leads from the first group from 1 to 15 there is 1.8v and the second group has 0.77v which adds up to 2.57 from a battery that shows 1.25v. If I do the same thing on the + leads the two groups add up to 1.83v. There is nothing 0.00v showing across the usual place, that is between the - and + of either a single led or the group.

Is this also what you have seen?

I may stick a red and amber in here. Perhaps they are better diodes than these white ones??

====

So, again, please, do I put the bridge on the secondary before it goes to the leds so it rectifies what goes into them, or after them using whatever they have done??

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 07, 2009, 10:01:49 PM

@ all
There are 2 X 1.2v NiCd in the video frame, but they are wired in Parallel, not in series, press the [] [] pause button to check it for yourself.

OK, that was my very first successful attempt to run a 12v DC fan from a 1.5v powered system, actually, it is running on 1.2v DC batts ;D

For those who cannot understand AUSTRALIAN speak, the power goes from the batts, to the torrid, then converted to 200+KHz. Then it travels to my SECOND torrid, from there back to a second FULL BRIDGE rectifier, from there to a 35v 1000uF cap. From there to the 12v DC fan, via a press button sw, which I pulled out of a reject microwave.

I took the movie which I call a Tiny Weini Video aka (TWV) file, just to identify it, by my Samsung Mobile Phone, uploaded to my PC using the phones software. Then went to OU on the JT forum, clicked on attatchments.
Went back to my file I made, and downloaded it.

The file itself is a 3GP (what ever that means) but it can be played by Quicktime, PC Studio Multimedia Player and probably heeps of others.

I electricme claim to be the first to power a 12v DC fan for longer than 1 second (its about 3 seconds)

Next.
Power a small relay, and harness the Back EMF somehow to keep the fan working continously.

LASTLY, you can only upload 240KB in total, this means all txt as well, so I tried to keep the TWV file at 200KB
I found this out by trial and error.

i...s...t.... ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,where are you hiding???? it is I electricme

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Bob Smith on January 07, 2009, 10:05:59 PM

Quote

So i resume , In the joule thief we have , meg , tpu, bedini they are all cousins .

Quote

@Mk, if this is the case (and I believe it is), then is pulsed DC the common factor?

And if it is, then in view of the 90 degree relationship between magnetism and electricity, can we deduce anything from these inventions about the possibility of harnessing pulsed DC from a permanent magnet, copper wire and capacitor?
B

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 07, 2009, 10:08:52 PM

@jeanna

Before doing anything check something for me . try flipping the the coil connection is if it helps.That change the current flow side.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 07, 2009, 10:16:01 PM

@Bob Smith

The main difference in the geometry , the jt and the meg are dual coil pulse device(one on, one off), tpu has a 3 coil design creating a 3d effect if you will on the current but having 3 pulse tuning.

And yes i believe they are using that same dc pulse , making use a happy bunch.

Edit i forgot bedini it uses only one coil pulse and one pickup coil.

Mark

I used to work for satellite company as a tech help, so sorry i tend to give to much information.
To pickup all at once.But it may be helpful later on.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: amigo on January 07, 2009, 10:33:23 PM

Gosh darn, this thread moves so fast, I can only read the forums at night and in 24 hours there's 6 pages of posts with more findings and more results. Dare I say this is the fastest moving thread on the site?

Well done everyone!

@Mk1

I feel you might have misunderstood what I was aiming at. The information I posted was to help everyone get broader education on the subject at hand - the LEDs. I personally believe that we should not be repeating mistakes others before us have done. That's why they made mistakes, so we don't have to... :)

Those eBooks should be considered a reference guide on using LEDs based on their characteristics. Someone already figured that part out, we just now need to implement their findings in our situation.

I know it's "boring theory" and I am the first one to complain about it (I'm a hands-on person too), but after so many years of trying to make a hole in the wall with my head, I realize that we should instead rely on *some* initial theoretical part when performing experimentation (ie. use the door instead). :)

@electricme

Thanks for finding those links, they got buried in the mass of posts. Not to worry though, all these posts I hope will remain here for posterity so those who come later can get a whole picture of what exactly we were trying to achieve here (and the pains we had to through to get there) :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 07, 2009, 10:56:11 PM

@mk1

Oh well, I already changed something, but breadboards are nice for that.

Here is the surprise.

Just to redraw this in everyone's heads,

I have one group of leds being run by the first secondary. It has 15 leds and it is arranged in 5 groups of 3 leds in parallel connected in series . This is next to and in series to another group arranged the same way, 3 in parallel which is connected in series to 3 more in parallel and so on. In series on the board, but being powered separately by a separate secondary winding.

Group 1 is just like last nights array of 15 leds and 11 turns of its secondary but it is all white.

Group 2 is the same but only has 9 leds and 10 turns of its secondary.

Lat night I read 7.5 volts across the whole array. I did this and stopped. I was tired. Today I was not seeing this much higher voltage. The only real difference was the colored ones.

I just replaced the last 3 parallel whites with 3 amber leds, and the first 3 parallel white leds with 3 reds.

I read 7.57 volts across the double array. They still take turns going on and off but I can see it is ultra dim not off.

MK1, I have been checking the polarity on the first array that way when I started. I can check the second array. I think I did before I twisted the wire on, but I will try again.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 07, 2009, 11:03:14 PM

@all

I almost forgot the french cousin the mace of Michel Meyer .

http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/mmcgen.htm

The ferrite toroid is a good replacement for the ferrite rod and the holder can be eliminated.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 07, 2009, 11:08:15 PM

@jeanna

The reason i was asking is that i believe the second coil is not connected properly you send back stuff maybe again reversing leds or wire its the same thing it might work.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 08, 2009, 12:05:54 AM

@MK1
Thank you Mark for your kind remarks about the VIDEO I posted on P101 **** HINT ***** to all. ;D ;D ;D

Yep, I have noticed how people don't recognise the Video notification to a normal picture, it seems both are a small paperclip at the bottom of the photo, but in the case of the VIDEO posted, there is nothing to show it, as is done if I posted a photo.

If I posted a photo, it is displayed for all to see, not so a VIDEO, "hint" please Stefan.

I have sent Stephan a PM to see if he can put a ICON, mabe a "2 x 2" video icon appears that can grab the readers attention that a video is avaliable.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 08, 2009, 12:13:52 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 07, 2009, 11:08:15 PM
@jeanna

The reason i was asking is that i believe the second coil is not connected properly you send back stuff maybe again reversing leds or wire its the same thing it might work.

Yes, it is a possibility. I did already reverse it in the beginning. I had a shorted wire and took the new pick up coil out to be sure the winding was going right etc. The thing is it was working, but at a less effective way.

Also, I can see on the dmm that the voltage is still there on the first array even when it is not lighting up, and it is also there on the second array, but with a bigger struggle.

I think I should take both pickup coils out and make one longer pickup coil and see just how far one coil will go on this joule thief. It won't be difficult, I don't think.

It is what I was planning to do today before I wondered about multiple coils using the same toroid.

I am wondering if there is some kind of out of phase going on here. If I could switch them perhaps, they would light in a series and if the switch is fast enough like the first joule thief, I won't see the off times.

Thank you for your help.

jeanna

@jim, this xo laptop thought your movie belonged to the sonic measuring program. I don't know how to tell it what program to open it in. I will watch your tiny video this weekend after my MAC gets back home.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 08, 2009, 12:25:51 AM

@jeanna

I bridge would be a good idea because it help making sense of it to. Having a dc reading , but also see how many led works from a single turn then lets see.You can also try bigger size wire . But i don't really see a limit as to how many can be worked at the same time.

The location of the coil and the symmetry play a role.

Mark , Thank for your work.

ps before destroying new experiment always check coil, battery and leds for polarity by testing it ,nothing will blow but if a mistake was done you will know for sure .
It seems like i have to do it twice .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 08, 2009, 12:34:17 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 07, 2009, 11:03:14 PM
@all

I almost forgot the french cousin the mace of Michel Meyer .

http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/mmcgen.htm

The ferrite toroid is a good replacement for the ferrite rod and the holder can be eliminated.

i can't read french, anyone have any idea how many winds the coils have? and what the crystal freq. is?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 08, 2009, 12:40:59 AM

@WilbyInebriated

I do speak french but it dosen' t say , but i can get you the math.
And think of it i may have a English version.

i will be back

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 08, 2009, 12:47:54 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 08, 2009, 12:40:59 AM
@WilbyInebriated

I do speak french but it dosen' t say , but i can get you the math.
And think of it i may have a English version.

i will be back

thank you mark!
all i could make out was something about variable capacitor, circuit freq. derived from this calculation and something about a bobbin.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 08, 2009, 12:58:07 AM

@all And will

http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?CC=FR&NR=2680613A1&KC=A1&FT=D&date=19930226&DB=&locale=en_V3

There is also a translator on other pages, so you should all be ok ;)

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 08, 2009, 01:16:02 AM

@ Jim:

Great video of your success!!!! I will have to make one soon using my new little digital cam I got a few weeks ago. I am not impressed with the lens it has.

In my mind, if you can run a 12 volt fan for a few seconds......then you can run it much longer with a few adjustments here and there. Unfortunately, I don't know what those might be. You will figure it out though.

@ Jeanna:

I will do some more run time experiments with the new caps when I can. I have no idea what the charging curve is for these and I only hit it with the battery power for a few seconds. I can check that next time with the meter. I am impressed with your work on the breadboard....mine is not here yet. It looks like it sure beats soldering and desoldering for many experiments with different components.

@ All:

My gosh, we have broken the 100 page level and over 1,000 posts already!!!!! This is truly a group effort here. Thank you all.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 08, 2009, 01:57:55 AM

here is jim/electricme's Video0012.3gp converted to .avi for those who don't have a .3gp player.
it seems the conversion to .avi bloated the nice small file jim did to something beyond the 250kb limit allowed by this forum. so here is an external link. Video0012.avi (http://solutionsfor.netfirms.com/Video0012.avi)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 08, 2009, 02:01:34 AM

@ jeanna,
@ all others (some help with geting through the JT mase)
There are lots of help avaliable, this post does not encroach upon that help, it is only provided to enhanse it.

I have been a bit involved with my own JT sorting its problems out, but I have noticed seeing your posts and enjoyed them.
Now, this is a long post, so grab a cuppa T and a bikky (cookie for the yanks). or a bag of lollies :D

You are doing well with this new JT of yours jeanna, nice pics to show us all you got it working. Lit up LEDs show you have voltage and a bit of current. Well done. I have also noticed you are not short of hollering for HELP, good on you.

OK have you ever taken a voltage reading without the LEDS, except for the single one as we see in the circuit that was posted way back at the start of this thread?
If you havent, see if you can do a reading, the volts, then current, make sure you use a full battery, this will always be your BASE readings if you need to work out any mods you do to it in the future.

That said, I also found with my own setup (JT) the LED on the orig JT always dims, if I put a load on the circuit suppplying the HZ to anything I connect to it.
The day it brightens up, brighter than its normal brightness, then just mabe thats OU.

If I connect the flat bat to be recharged, the LED dimms
If I connect the CAP the LED dimms
If I connect the 12v DC PC fan the LED dimms
If I connect the Buzzer Coil the LED dimms

What I am saying, don't worry too much at this stage if the LED dimms, its acting as a Visual Indicator, mA or Discharge gauge right now.
At least you will have output.

OK you can modify or begin by building a new torrid, I mainly put that in because as sure as eggs, there is going to be someone who will stumble on this thread and say HUUUHHH

Get a HB LED, place it between the bare ends of the torrids output wires, take note of the "flat" spot at the base on the bottom of the LED, this is the NEGATIVE leg of this LED.

Note ***,when the LED lites up, take note of the polaritory, mark down the (+) lead, as this thing puts out DC at hi frequencies, and the LED can tell you which copper wire end is positave even if the DMM says it is AC.
We are going tobe passing dc at hi Z through these diodes.

If you can light up a HiBright LED on the output of the 1st torrid, then you are making Hz, and lots of them, over 200KHz in fact.
So you next need to put 2 diodes on this output, one facing one way on one wire, one facing the other way on the other wire.

Heres how to do this.
Hold up a diode with the silver band to it's right, solder the other end to the wire from the torrid that you found was (+)
Hold up a diode with the silver end to it's left, solder the other end the the remaining outwire from the torrid (-)

This becomes the source of energy you will now be working with.

Now, measure the outputs, see what you have on the ends of these 2 diodes (both IN4004 or IN4007)

You should be come aware that the measurements go wonky, here reality, normal stuff gets the flick, on my setup I can measure both AC and DC, thats the nature of this beast the JT.
Remember back to when you were measuring your Stubblefield Cell, you got unusual readings? this is a bit like that now.

OK jeanna, from this point, is where you make it work for you, you have to feed this funny output into "another" torrid.
You can beef up the output of the original torrid by making it with different ratio windings, only you can decide how many turns you want to put on the Primary and secondary.
Perhapse a ratio of 1 to 1 (not bifile), or wound 2:1 or 3:1 or 4:1, this means, say for example, make the primary coil 50 turns, them if its ratio is 2:1 then the secondary is 100 turns, I think you got that now.

Or as I did, my primary is 100 turns T+ 20 turns T+ 20 turns T + etc etc "T" = taps on the primary coil.
I then used a 12 position switch to select the HT output I want, it is a research tool torrid.

There is just 2 seperate coils on this torrid, the input coil and the output coil. Those making bigger ones could have several secondaries and you could connect them in series or parallel, but watch the phasing.

Measure the output of this coil, no load, see if it works, no good proceeding further if it got no output.

The next step is to rectify the "output" derived from the second torrid.
Solder the 2 x (~) legs of the "bridge diode" to the output winding or coil you made.
Next step, measure the output of the Positave and Negative, no output, go back 1 step and check connections or check diodes.

It works? good, now, what was the reading you got? might be very low to high to very high, output, don't worry about high output.

ELECTROLYTICs
Be very careful with these doovers kiddies, they can pack a real punch in one way or another.
Connect it reverse polarity and if you are lucky it wont go boom, so tripple check your connections.

Solder pos wire to pos on cap
Solder Neg wire to neg on cap
WILL the voltage marked on the cap be able to handle the voltage you will throw at it?
DOUBLE CHECK.
I got hit by the canister of one of these things once, it had an inturnal fault, and it struck my collor bone (Clavacle) and left a bloody round mark as well AND IT HURTS BIG TIME.

Get a electrolytic capacitor, to match the voltage, start off with those in PC power supplies, rip them out and solder them in here.

Switch on 1.5 v battery, watch meter, if it slowly creeps up the scale, well and good.
WARNING, from this point on, look out, as pirate knows (and this kid eme), a hefty whack is waiting for those who have careless pinkies.

OK jeanna, if you got this far and you got juice outa the cap, thats good, you now got something you can play with or do things with and are now up to where I am at.

All those reading this thread, if you got to here, go and look for P101, scroll down to where electricme has posted a video showing you a 12v DC fan being powered for several seconds by a 1.2v battery, not a 1.5v battery.
.
There you are jeanna, hope you made some sence outa this.
At all I apologise for the long post.

jim electricme

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 08, 2009, 02:38:02 AM

@Jim,
Thank you for what looks at first glance to be very clear insructions.

You haven't seen voltage readings because I have not yet reported them. I have 2 pages of this information. I won't post it all, I just have it.

(Oh, yes, I did make note at various times of the battery voltage.)

Anyway, it is 11:30, and I am way too tired to make a sensible post. And this deserves it.

I have completed 29 white leds 6000mcd each V_f3.7V each. all on one NiMH rechargeable battery which is a tad bit run down and started today at 1.25v and is now 1.21v.

I will hopefully find the exact diodes I need in my stash tomorrow.

Thanks again.

@mk1

Thank you for your insights. I am too sleepy to continue. but this is very very cool. Thank you. thank you.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 08, 2009, 03:12:33 AM

@ all
This is what I meen about this forum, and noticed by many others, there is so much help avaliable and expressions of kindness, what do I meen? Wilbyinebriated, just decided to do something for me, I had not asked him to convert my video, he saw a need and dit it Thanks kind sir.
Then theres Pirate, who passed on his positave remarks about my video, same as MK1 has done in a earlier post, and jeanna, who carn't see it just yet because she needs to get her own PC back.

Look at what happened to all my great photos I posted yesterday, they now are arranged to fill the screen in an ordly manner, you guys are all great people you have my thanks.

IST, :D where r u my friend, r u ducking in here to have a looksee every now and again? ::)
ist i got a relay hooked up now, i looking at back emf, on my green osc trace, i get tingl eeeeeee fingers if i touch da coil when it is working, i does....ist
jim is getting dare ist, i seen your photos n i have worked it all out (I tink), ha ha ;D ;D

Thanks again all
jim
;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: AbbaRue on January 08, 2009, 05:45:27 AM

@WilbyInebriated
That circuit you posted is found in the Free Energy Guide on page 3-20.
And it's in English. ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jonnydavro on January 08, 2009, 06:13:14 AM

HI,I have been following this thread and love the way everyone helping each other and working together.I would like to share with you what i have come up with.I have used a joule thief to power a pulse motor and 25 leds at the same time.The motor is running and excelerating as the cap charges up and the leds are nice and bright.Here are some pics,circuit and a video.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=JPiTorYYlAU

Regards jonnydavro.

Edit Diode in circuit diagram is 1N4937

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on January 08, 2009, 06:25:26 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 07, 2009, 08:58:50 PM
@Cap-Z-ro

In the jt the coil are like a electromagnet same as magnet except we take a little voltage to make them.Traditional system use magnets that passe quickly in front of a coil like in a alternator , the speeds is limited by the speed of the car motor and that changes the output .

So if we use electromagnet we can create that same effect but with electricity , so we don't have any moving parts like in the motor, and we can make the same effect by switching on and off magnets , Its the same effect as a bedini motor but without movement.

So i resume , In the joule thief we have , meg , tpu, bedini they are all cousins .

@Mk1

Further to the above, I have been wondering what the effect would be if a j/t was made using a ring magnet instead of ferrite...or even 2 magnets in opposition.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 08, 2009, 06:51:39 AM

Quote from: jonnydavro on January 08, 2009, 06:13:14 AM
HI,I have been following this thread and love the way everyone helping each other and working together.I would like to share with you what i have come up with.I have used a joule thief to power a pulse motor and 25 leds at the same time.The motor is running and excelerating as the cap charges up and the leds are nice and bright.Here are some pics,circuit and a video.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=JPiTorYYlAU

Regards jonnydavro.

Edit Diode in circuit diagram is 1N4937

BRAVO! i was wondering when someone would extend it to this. props to you jonny

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on January 08, 2009, 07:16:27 AM

@ electricme

Bill was able to get an led to drink from a cap slowly over a 20 minute period...perhaps if you tossed an led into your circuit, you would get the desired slow release of power.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 08, 2009, 09:10:14 AM

Quote from: Cap-Z-ro on January 08, 2009, 07:16:27 AM
@ electricme

Bill was able to get an led to drink from a cap slowly over a 20 minute period...perhaps if you tossed an led into your circuit, you would get the desired slow release of power.

Regards...

Just from using my 10v 2200uF cap across the LED on my JT, I think that it may have more to do with the cap than the LED. I think this because this cap will take a minute or two to totally be unable to produce light once the battery is removed. My 50v 47uF discharges and the LED goes out immediately. I could be completely wrong because I really do not understand much about this yet, but that's my own observation, for what it's worth ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 08, 2009, 09:22:22 AM

@MK1

I tried adding a quick pickup coil to my existing JT last night using 22 or 30 gauge(I'm guessing at this) enamel coated copper wire. I think I just don't grab the concept of your pickup coil very well. I made about 12 turns and then hooked the ends of this to the + and - of a bridge I took out of an old PC power supply. I then connected an LED to the two inner pins and hooked a battery to my JT. The JT's LED lit like normal, but the LED on the new winding did nothing. So, I flipped the LED. Again nothing. What am I missing here? I'm sure it's something pretty basic. I am a beginner and it was late at night ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 08, 2009, 09:28:39 AM

@jonnydavro
Welcome to the forum

Nice rig you got there, and fancy running a motor and LEDs all at once, nice pics also.
I am off to bed, got to put some zzzz in, its just past midnight, so I will take a look at your U Tube post tomorrow morning

You can all got to work while I sleep ;)

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 08, 2009, 09:31:34 AM

@ Cap-Z

so bill is drinkin from his caps, ha ha, thanks mate, boy ama I tired, will answer this prop 2 morra

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on January 08, 2009, 09:56:26 AM

Quote from: timmy1729 on January 08, 2009, 09:10:14 AM
Just from using my 10v 2200uF cap across the LED on my JT, I think that it may have more to do with the cap than the LED. I think this because this cap will take a minute or two to totally be unable to produce light once the battery is removed. My 50v 47uF discharges and the LED goes out immediately. I could be completely wrong because I really do not understand much about this yet, but that's my own observation, for what it's worth ;D

The is still much to be explored in the cap/led connection.

Regards..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: mdmiller on January 08, 2009, 12:22:46 PM

All of your enthusiasm is contagious. I pulled a toroid from an old PC and my first JT was born last nite, using an MSPA06 for the transistor. It would go out after about 5 seconds so I added another 1K resistor (2 total) and it was running all nite with a couple of hi-brite led's, although after 12 hours it was dimmer. With the battery lower, I pulled the resistors and just had a jumper which worked fine. The toroid had an area where there were no coils from the bifiliar, so I wrapped 5 loops of soft iron enameled florist wire and replaced the jumper with this additional coil. The voltage across the led dropped but the led glowed brighter. I went back and forth between the jumper and the additional iron coil, no question it's brighter. The voltage across the led dropped from .52V to .50V with the iron coil but yet the led was brighter, not much, but this battery was pretty dead and had less than half a volt on the DVM. Curious if anyone is pursuing iron wire, as Leedskalnin noted "I can make more of the magnetic currents with soft iron wire coil than I can with copper wire coil" -- thanks for sharing - Duane

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: AbbaRue on January 08, 2009, 01:55:17 PM

@mdmiller
Do I understand you correctly, you're using the output of an Iron wire winding and getting the LED's to light brighter?
MK1 had interesting results from using Brass wire.
Iron wire is a lot cheaper then copper.
I wonder what results we would get from a JT totally made from iron wire?

These are interesting results and need more investigation.

@Pirate
Are you noting these results too?
May be useful info for your Stubblefield Earth Batteries.
Stubblefield used Iron and Copper windings in his batteries, both were insulated.

@DrStiffler
Maybe you can get better output results from your boards using an inductor wound from iron wire as the output coil?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 08, 2009, 02:02:28 PM

@ Mdmiller and jonnydavro

Welcome , to this forum .

Jonny well done(thank to you Bedini just got better) ;) ,

Mdmiller tell me more i wanted to test soft iron but could not find any, i have a feeling this is really important. :D , I am a big fan of Ed.

@ timmy

The magnet wire is a covered wire there is a varnish on it , If you don't solder it it needs to be taken off to get a good connection.

I usually use a lighter and heat it. I hope this helps.

Thanks everyone

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 08, 2009, 02:55:02 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 08, 2009, 02:02:28 PM
@ Mdmiller and jonnydavro

Welcome , to this forum .

Jonny well done(thank to you Bedini just got better) ;) ,

Mdmiller tell me more i wanted to test soft iron but could not find any, i have a feeling this is really important. :D , I am a big fan of Ed.

@ timmy

The magnet wire is a covered wire there is a varnish on it , If you don't solder it it needs to be taken off to get a good connection.

I usually use a lighter and heat it. I hope this helps.

Thanks everyone

Mark

@MK1
I scraped the coating off down to the bare copper on the ends and soldered them to the bridge. I don't see how I can get any usable current through induction since the pickup coil isn't connected to the battery. It's not supposed to be connected to the battery in any way, right? ???

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: mdmiller on January 08, 2009, 03:15:14 PM

I pulled the cat-5 and small additional iron wire coil off my JT toroid and wrapped on a completely-iron bifilar. This is green florist wire from the craft shop, probably 30 ga, 12X2 wraps on a 30mm toroid. The battery reads .42 V but the led is bright. Brighter than it was with the copper bifilar, I'll see how long it goes. - Duane

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 08, 2009, 03:19:29 PM

Quote from: mdmiller on January 08, 2009, 03:15:14 PM
I pulled the cat-5 and small additional iron wire coil off my JT toroid and wrapped on a completely-iron bifilar. This is green florist wire from the craft shop, probably 30 ga, 12X2 wraps on a 30mm toroid. The battery reads .42 V but the led is bright. Brighter than it was with the copper bifilar, I'll see how long it goes. - Duane

Wow! If Iron works better, this could save me some money playing with this all the time ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 08, 2009, 03:22:53 PM

@timmy

The coil dose not need to be connected to circuit in any way ,have faith! And is your bridge connected correctly?

@Mdmiller

Yo that man. That is great news , cheap iron free energy. Viva Edward Leedskalnin !
And Duane :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 08, 2009, 03:48:10 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 08, 2009, 03:22:53 PM
@timmy

The coil dose not need to be connected to circuit in any way ,have faith! And is your bridge connected correctly?

One end of the wire went to the + post and the other end went to the - post and there was a well-soldered joint. The two middle posts are the outputs, correct? The LED connects to those two middle posts, correct?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 08, 2009, 03:59:45 PM

@timmy

Sorry you got it soldered wrong the + and - are the outputs.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 08, 2009, 04:55:54 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 08, 2009, 03:59:45 PM
@timmy

Sorry you got it soldered wrong the + and - are the outputs.

Whoooooops :-[

I hope I didn't fry anything.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 08, 2009, 05:03:55 PM

@timmy

I am pretty sure it won't blow anything, That fear of breaking stuff has to stop NOW.IF you do its a good thing and it will mean something, but that fear is slowing you down , you have to stop that , try anything that's the point , so far everybody has success , you will to, let it happen.

I know you will show us a lots of stuff.

Keep the great work! :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 08, 2009, 05:13:19 PM

@ All:

I have not had much time but I grabbed my new breadboard and hooked it to JT circuit #3 which I made using the ferrite bead. (Not toroid) I left the original 28,500 MCD superbright LED (10 mm) on the circuit and added one of my new 265,000 MCD superbrights (10 mm) to the circuit in parallel. Man, that thing is very bright!!!! You could make a great flashlight using just one of these things. Both LEDs light brightly...I put a mirror next to the lower powered one so you can see it.

I have much more to do using the caps and the iron wire. I have plenty of iron wire left over from building my Stubblefield coils so I will try it and see what happens. Only thing I don't get is why the iron wire does not short to itself when wound on the toroid? In the NS coils we built, we used cotton insulation. Magnet wire has the varnish. My iron wire is just bare. Of course, he did say it was florist's wire which is probably painted green so maybe that acts as insulation? I am sorry I can't go back and see who posted that while posting here but....good work.

I seem to have 5 folks on this board somewhere that do not like me. (Hopefully not in this topic, ha ha) I have no idea what I might have done to anyone, much less 5 people, to get negative vibes. Oh well, that's life.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jonnydavro on January 08, 2009, 05:18:53 PM

@Wilby,Electricme,mk1, thanks.I think there is plenty off mileage left in this thread.It seems like a big jigsaw puzzle and everyone seems to be bringing a piece.This thread has really peaked my interest and the performance off the joule thief circuit and what can be done with it suprised me.I still can't believe i am lighting 25 leds and running a pulse motor at high rpm on a battery that won't work in my camera and i still have the bemf off the coil to play with so i am joining the train,lets see where it takes us. ;D Regards jonnydavro.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 08, 2009, 05:34:14 PM

@all

If we can get energy from a dead battery , then what is the dead battery life expectancy ? ??? ::)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 08, 2009, 06:11:35 PM

@all

I would like to share with you a circuit. The value of it is the feedback to the source. It does not matter what pulse motor you use. Also the idea can be used with joule thiefs.
You can eliminate anything from it and use the parts you like to build your project. Just share your results too.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: mdmiller on January 08, 2009, 06:23:47 PM

Although I can't get my secondary inductor coil over the toroid to work through the diode bridge I just laid out on my breadboard, I noticed something -- but it could be nothing. There was still some enamel on the wire from the toroid coil where it inserts into the breadboard. This connection when inserted "just so" had properties of very high resistance. When it did, the led pulsed rapidly, the JT oscillating rapidly took me by surprise. For whatever reason, it reminded me of the recent ist video with the chattering relay controlled by a pot. I recall an ist comment about the importance of the resistor controlling the circuit frequency.

1N4007's okay for a bridge ??

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 08, 2009, 06:30:17 PM

@mdmiller

I think you got something there! The power may be enough the make a spark gap , it may be a way of converting and regulating voltage.

Would a small filament bulb work , and permit some type of reading? Anyone ?

Good work!

@jesus

Thank you very much !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 08, 2009, 07:07:36 PM

The huge transistor looking thing I pulled from the power supply last night turned out to be a Schottky Barrier Diode d83-004.
Here is the datasheet http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/61331/FUJI/ESAD83-004.html (http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/61331/FUJI/ESAD83-004.html)
The two end pins are diodes that direct current to go through the center pin.

Can this be of some use? What can I do to experiment with this, if it is useful for a JT?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 08, 2009, 07:39:42 PM

@timmy

Since it is a diode it can be used to direct current like the bridge , there many types of diodes , this is a good one to experiment with, you just need a way to use it .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 08, 2009, 07:45:26 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 08, 2009, 07:39:42 PM
@timmy

Since it is a diode it can be used to direct current like the bridge , there many types of diodes , this is a good one to experiment with, you just need a way to use it .

Mark

Precisely. Any ideas?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 08, 2009, 08:09:26 PM

@ all
Back again afta a sleep :)

@ MdMiller,
Welcome to our JT forum, I agree, enthusiasm is contagious, as AddaRue mentioned to you for Pirates and our binefet, regarding the relationship to the Nathan Stubblefield coil he made ie IRON wire and copper wire.
To be honest I never thought of using iron wire, now I will get some, where are you my faithful magnet, I need to take you shopping with me, lol.

YES, Duane, Bridge Diodes can be made out of IN4007 diodes, they have a higher rating breakdown, I bet you are thinking to use it on your HV side of the transformer.

I just did a little test on a bare almost black torrid, it seems not to have any conduction properties, perhapse someone could verify this also?

@ JohnnyDavro,
I think you have the best output so far with a JT, it is awsome that you can get your stepper motor up to high speed, on a single 1.5v batt, awsome, and driving 25 LEDS at the same time, unbelieable. Well done Sir.

Now I had a real scary thought, I believe a record is going to be broken before this week is out, if JD JT gets a new rewind using Iron wire, how much will he get in output,. I had another thought, what would happen if the windings in a run of the mill generator had iron wire instead of copper wire? hmmmmmm

@ Timmy,
Oh man, go ahead and blow fuses, transistors, LEDs burn out coils, burn out PC fans and transformers, you will learn it norman in electronics research, only way to learn, sides it is good fun doin it.

@ jesus,
Thanks for the crt with the pulse motor, now this is what I will try next time.
BTW, will your crt drive the very small stepper motor ion the back of a floppy drive? here is an opertunity to use this small motor for a different purpose.
A few years ago I modified a car wiper motor to lift my kitchen sash window up and down, power comes from a PC PS.

@MK1,
I forgot to mention that I am using a small fillament bulb in my circuit, I once made a frequency Sine/Square generator as a test instrument, I had to use 2 bulbs, forgot why for, but it was necessary. Anyway I just added them into my JT crt, between one of the output leads going to the input wires of my second HV JT.
Come to think of it, I did have overheating on my second torrid, now I dont, hmmm again.

I'll take a pic and post it shortly.
jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 08, 2009, 08:27:41 PM

@ all
Here is a photo of the Bulb Globe in JT circuit.
jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 08, 2009, 08:44:00 PM

@ timmy
This is for Timmys benefit, although everyone could use this as well, and is off the JT topic but could be related to it.

I picked up a couple of security B&W monitors (2CCD camera switchers built in) cheeply last weekend, after they were running for a couple of hours I could smell hot transformer Plug Pack. Upon touching them, they were very very hot indeed.

Time to get serious, as the black plastic might melt later, lucky for me, they had 2 philips head screws, this alowed me to get to the guts of the matter. Inside, they have a bare bones 240v - 12v AC tranny, AC rectified 4 IN4002 diodes in bridge fashion, smoothing taken care of by a 16V 1000uf cap.

I cut out a big area of the plastic bottom of the casing, moveing the output lead to the case side. Soldered the leads of a 12v DC CPU fan to the miniture PCB and affixed the fan tio it.

I then drilled 20 x 1/8" holes to the top of the caseing, reassembled all and test.

The fan screems its head off with no load, turn on the monitor (and cameras) and the fan noise falls dramaticly, this tells me there is a miss match in the current out from the transformer, at least I tried to fix the heating prob, now it runs much cooler, but I still am not happy with it.

Photos 0272 and 0271

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 08, 2009, 08:47:47 PM

@electricme

Nice picture!

Also when shopping for iron wire , remember that so far the ones that have been used with success are soft iron(same as electromagnet)
Ans it is coated with green paint isolating it ,it may prevent shorts.The reason i think this is important is that stainless or harden types of iron stay magnetized even if a little , but may create a problem .The reason soft steel is used in electromagnet is it will not become a magnet no mater how much volts you put in.

I think the good material is one that also is a good radio waves isolator(shield)

Mark

Edit : also have you tried all your taps in parallel?And getting that reading is real hard on iron coil it the reason i was mentioning the bulb.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 08, 2009, 09:45:58 PM

@ Jim:

Nice pics!!!

@ All:

This business about the iron wire.....I really think we need to find a way to insulate it when wrapping a toroid. This could be done in several ways. Like others on here, I have done a lot of work with the Stubblefield bifilar coil using iron and copper wire. As Jim mentioned, when shopping for iron wire, take a magnet with you....it will save you a lot of trouble from buying "iron" wire that has little to no iron in it.

The florist's wire, painted, is one way to do this. I was thinking about spraying my wire with a clear coat of poly, or anything else that would make it more like magnet wire. Or, one could, as I did, wind cotton string, or some other insulation material, in between the wires on the toroid. I don't like this method as we don't have a lot of room to begin with. But, knowing what little I know, if we just wrap iron wire on a toroid, I believe it will short to itself and not work the way we intend it to. Maybe it would be easier to get this Florist's wire? Maybe I am wrong here but, I can't see how this would work if the coil windings are shorted. My 2 cents.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 08, 2009, 10:05:00 PM

@pirate

Good comment , but since no book as far as i know tells us about what is going on , we may need to check it anyway, lets do it right this time!

Thanks, for letting me in your Topic.

Mark

I don't see many tpu master around here , Are they just hiding .They must be busy some how.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 08, 2009, 10:07:07 PM

@MK1
No, the taps are in series with each other, eg
Wire start at 1 turn put on 100 turns
(I should have begun 20 turns here myself and left out the 1st 100 turns it would have given me a higher output)

Take out a loop, twist the wire (dont cut it)

put on 20 more turns take out another loop
put on another 20 turns take out a loop

Do this another 8 times
So 100 + 10x20s = 300 turns in total.

Feed the AC from the first JT into the primary of the 2nd JT, its a multi step transformer, used oppersate to a multi tap stepdown plugpack

The reason I did this, is because I wanted to see if I could control a much higher output voltage by the lower primary voltage, because to lower the risk fooling about HT settings, does this make sence?

To see the principle working, take 2 identical transformers, and put them back to back.

WARNING, DANGEROUS VOLTAGES
Due to the nature of the internet, where anyone can read this post and not notify they have done so and decide to carry out the following experiment, you do so at the sole risk to yourself and absolve all blame to anyone other than yourself if you suffer from an electric shock.

If you know you are not qualified, or a novice, DON'T do this experiment.
If you ignore this warning and injure yourself thats not my fault.
Only suitably qualified exprerienced persons who know and understand what they are doing should try this.

If you carry out this experiment, you take upon yourself the consquences and can only blame yourself.

*********************************************************************************************************************************

Using a 240v ac power cord that has a 3 pin plug attatched, solder the free ends to the Primary 240v input tabs of T1 (1st transformer).

Solder 2 insulated hookup wires from the 12v ac out tabs on the T1,
Next solder the free ends onto the 12v tabs onto T2 (transformer 2).

Solder a 12v tail light bulb onto these wires.

Solder another 240v lead to the output of T2 of the 2nd transformer.

Then afix a 240v bayanet light fitting to the ends of this lead

Install a 240v bulb to the bayanet fixture

When the power is applied, it is converted from 240v ac to 12v ac, taken to the 2nd transformer and converted again back to 240v AC
The smaller 12v bulb glows showing you it is at 12v.

This principle works on big and small transformers, on low and high voltages.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 08, 2009, 10:26:13 PM

@ Jim:

(Quote from Jim) "If you know you are not qualified, or a novice, DON'T do this experiment.
If you ignore this warning and injure yourself thats not my fault.
Only suitably qualified exprerienced persons who know and understand what they are doing should try this.

If you carry out this experiment, you take upon yourself the consquences and can only blame yourself."

Well, I guess this leaves me out, ha ha. Great post, thanks.

@ MK1:

No, thank you for posting here and being a part of all this. You have done a lot and answered many questions and provided much information and ideas. We are very happy to have you here!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 08, 2009, 10:34:33 PM

@all

Ok I am Still Here for you guys and have been up for days and night experimenting . I got another camera with macro and i am waiting for some parts and breadboard to come in . Great Job Collecting those schematics Jesus . They are helpful .In between Jule Thief thread and feedback to Source this one is taking all the time on line to read if you know what i mean . Plus daily Life as a Dad /mom is killing me . that is why i stay up until 3 in the morn at the kitchen table experimenting . I figured id try this as i have not seen any try yet so I'll be the first being a already have a Bedini running itself , the circuit is posted at the thread feedback to Source.I made a Sloppy Joule thief with 2-40 windings number 22 then on top of that i put 100 windings number 32 and on the other side 20 turns number 16 . I hooked the 32 up to a diode and cap and fed back to the battery . Guess what ? It is slowing down the discharge rate id say a factor of 75 % . i actually see the voltage from a partially dead battery ie 1.100 volts go to 1.115 when i feedback the voltage . . Ok so i put a pot on the base to further reduce the transistor base voltage(germanium) and put a pot on the output to battery so i could regulate the feedback to source and keep the leds lit . i also have another led lit on the number 16 wire . I will probably rectify it's output and feed it back as well .. they have been running for two days now with just a minimal drop in primary aaa battery as it was partially dead anyways ...I appreciate all your post and kind response to my no so technician blab lings even though i dont say it too often(Mk1)(electricme)(all)..thats all for now . Kirk out ! ****edit**** I just checked the battery voltage and it 1.255 !!! What is going on ? Im not jumping for joy yet because i do have the led brightness turned down so they will light up but not full bright .. i will let it run for another day and check it again ..It appears the voltage has gained on the aaa battery from 1.115 two days ago to 1.255 just now ..I aint' kidding . Here is apic . i forgot i changed things around yesterday movin the two green leds to an out of circuit stop between the 32 output and a leg off the transistor place :) .they are not in the same place as the original Jt . i will draw a schematic tonight .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 09, 2009, 12:04:36 AM

@ gadgetmall
Wow, it seems every post for the last 2 days has brought in a new improvement.
Nice to hear you are ducking in here in the background.
(theres lots of other phantom viewers also judging by how many times certain jpgs have been looked at)

Getting a battery recharged whilst still powering the circuit in my book has achieved something very big, but as you said, check it again in a couple of days, mabe over a month or three as something might go wonky.
You could also try a single wet cell, see if that holds its charge.

Im lookin forward to the circuit.

Better yet, if you have enough components, make a mirror copy of your setup, then set them both off together, monitoring one result against the other, that will tell you if one is "slopped together" or not lol.

Thanks for posting photos of your JT Gadgetmall
Looks good.

@ bill,
noooooo my friend, I not ducking out or retiring from this forum, I having fun fun fun.
This is better than a birthday party at McDonalds or Kentuck duck, at least I can have fried pinkies if I get hungry.

Update ao the WAR at home
Mouses deathtole now 9
Me thrivin with glee.
Im running outa cheese bait, (Im eating it too, got competition)
De cobwebbed side verrandah this morning by vaccuum cleaner, got 2 redbacks spiders also.ukky

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 09, 2009, 12:29:44 AM

Quote from: Cap-Z-ro on January 08, 2009, 06:25:26 AM

@Mk1

Further to the above, I have been wondering what the effect would be if a j/t was made using a ring magnet instead of ferrite...

Regards...

Hi cap-z-ro,

My first 2 joule thieves were made from ceramic magnets. I misunderstood the meaning of ferrite. bill explained- this was last year-

What happened is the transistor stopped working. It got I spose the word would be saturated? It wasn't hurt. I was able to take it apart and re-use it, but the magnetism seems to have stopped the working. It sort of worked for about 3 days, then stopped.

@ All,

I have been making a standardization / calibration study today.

I am running the jt with 29 leds in array on a freshly recharged AAA to see how much it looses. It will be done at 10:30 tonight.

To compare these results to some kind of standard, I will use another freshly recharged AAA from the same batch to light a plain joule thief in the same breadboard but without the secondary windings or the 29 leds. Also for 10 hours. That will be done at 8:30 tomorrow morning.

I can tell you it is dropping at a rate of 9 mV per hour. This statement is really only a teaser. I think it has no real meaning by itself.

I will let you know tomorrow.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 09, 2009, 12:37:07 AM

ok heres the circuit . I don't know if i am losing it from lack of sleep but as of this writing its at 1.256 . i ditched the second led on the no 16 wire and let it hang tonight .I'm using Green LEDs it was drawing some current . i have it just barley giving light to tell its oscillating . Nite.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 09, 2009, 02:02:16 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 08, 2009, 09:45:58 PM

..it will save you a lot of trouble from buying "iron" wire that has little to no iron in it.

The florist's wire, painted, is one way to do this.

... if we just wrap iron wire on a toroid, I believe it will short to itself

Bill

Perhaps take a compass in the other pocket because you want soft iron, and soft iron loses its magnetisation after the magnet moves away. So make sure the magnet sticks then when the magnet is moved away, make sure there is no pull on the compass.

I'd say if there is something that is cheap and soft iron and comes insulated go for it.

Also, Jim has mentioned nail polish several times. I think that would work too. I read in one wire brochure that there were many layers to the varnish on the mag wire.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 09, 2009, 02:40:11 AM

Quote from: jeanna on January 09, 2009, 02:02:16 AM
Perhaps take a compass in the other pocket because you want soft iron, and soft iron loses its magnetisation after the magnet moves away. So make sure the magnet sticks then when the magnet is moved away, make sure there is no pull on the compass.

I'd say if there is something that is cheap and soft iron and comes insulated go for it.

Also, Jim has mentioned nail polish several times. I think that would work too. I read in one wire brochure that there were many layers to the varnish on the mag wire.

jeanna

nail polish works well, super corona dope works good also.
http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/4226.html

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 09, 2009, 02:50:04 AM

@All
Well, I decided to experiment with the windings on my big toroid.I think the outer diameter of it is 1.125". I've got a pretty new spool of 18 gauge solid copper wire and some magnet wire from a kid's electronics kit(Hey, they're a good intro to the basics, even if you're 29). I fit 18 turns of the 18 gauge wire and about 38 turns of the magnet wire. I'm thinking it's like 30 gauge or something. I will make a JT of it in the morning. Right now, I need sleep and it's about 1:45am here. It's cool, though. Tomorrow is my off Friday. We get every other Friday off(80 hours over 9 days, though). So, I'll have time tomorrow to play with my JT toys ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jonnydavro on January 09, 2009, 05:32:37 AM

@ electricme.My joule thief (1st one i have ever made)is made with 10 bifilar turns off bell wire on a ferrite identical visually to one i think it was pirate was using.The voltage output off my joule thief by itself i think will be far below what some off you guys have produced its just that i am using the output i have very efficiently.The rotor i have spinning triggers a reed switch which discharges the cap through the coil which then pulses the rotor.I am not using a stepper motor.I am also collecting the bemf from the coil but have not had time to play with that yet.Another thing,the rotor which weighs over 20grams(each magnet is 5g + the mini cd)is mounted on an unconnected dc motor as the bearing,this is producing a voltage aswell so more possibilities there.
The capasitor i am using is 60000uf but you can use one a lot smaller i tried a 4700uf and it worked fine,,just not as fast and with a shorter run down time after the battery is removed so what i am saying is you don't need a massive cap to run a pulse motor if anyone else was thinking about replicating.One other thing,after making the video i left the motor running and the cap climbed up to 4.5v and the motor was nearly turning into a helicopter so i pulled the plug and the rundown time i estimate was over a minute,but i will have to time it next time as it caught me by suprise it was so long.Anyway plenty more to come from me on this yet. ;D
Regards jonnydavro

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 09, 2009, 07:29:12 AM

@all
It was lack of sleep.. the voltage on the battery did drop to 2.148 this morning indicating more current in than out , sooooo I will do more test with a twin unit when the proto board comes in hopefully today along with a couple super caps. I did notice an increase in voltage with the feedback circuit of .015 volts in steps for a brief period of 1 day .it may be that i am using one of those rechargeable Alki Eveready's recharged with a Bedini .this is evident in a replication if you do one . R1 is 10ohms r2 is 200ohms d4 and d2 are 1n4001 d3 and d1 are low power Green leds .r3 is 1 k c1 is 2200 uf 10v q1 is unmarked from a very old camera shutter circuit and u can use anything there with low power hi gain . germanium prefer and the toroid core is from PC power supply .medium size I discussed the winding in previous posts. I will make it My part of this experiment to further this experiment to prolong /sustain the jt with more accurate measurements of current and volt input VS output and Time when i get the proto board..including a Schematic of each . as the led will light in various places as you can see.I think it is possible to decrease the current input to a point where the output windings rectified can feed more out than in . it may take more than two secondaries at x amount of turns and X size wire or a second transformer .. Also will hook up the 555 to control the frequency ..l8r..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 09, 2009, 08:07:06 AM

@ jonnydavro
Thankyou for the circuit and it's explination, well done.

About your UTube video (I had to go to another PC to view it) I can see the big coil, is it a single coil, or bifilar? the reason for me asking I car'nt see it on your circuit you posted.
I saw the 2 identical multimeters, that is excellent pre thought, displaying several bits of electrical info at once is wise indeed.
One can see at aglance whats happening.

I noticed you mentioned there were magnets mounted on a mini cd, a safety flag went off in my head.

If this disk gets up to high RPM as you say, better make sure the glue used dosent let go and the magnet dosent fly off, if it did, it could do a bit of misschiff it it hit something. I suggest you get another mini CD and afix it to the top of the magnets, giving some extra support, and mabe put a steel band around the circumference to help absorb any shock from flying magnetics. If a magnet hit your big coil.......

One other thing, I know I might be harrping on safety here but I have seen the results of accidents, and I refer to a balance problem, if one magnet goes a-stray, that leaves a tremendous force trying to tear the rest of the spinning disk apart, (like loosing a lawnmower blade) it could "take off" in any direction
HEAD for da hills ha ha, wheres ma tin hat, duck unda de sofa.

I am intriged with how you are switching the back EMF and supplying this energy back into the battery, but I cannot see the reed switch you mentioned shown on your circuit, could you repost the circuit with the alterations please.

That said, how about using this modification suggestion instead.
Make a metal disk, (or use a mini cd disk) drill 4 holes (or file slots) at every 90 degrees through this disk, then use a infrared diode and receiving diode to register pulses, feed the pulses to a MOSFET, put several 75v zenner diodes between S & D so the EMF pulse wont destroy the Mosfet.

This will take away the danger of flying magnets as trigger pionts to collapse the coil, which produces the BEMF pulse, but I realise the phisical make and break of points is a key to making square waves, which is happening with this circuit, so I dont know..

Every old printer has these LED proxmidity devices to stop the ink cartridges from crashing into the side of the cases.

I just thought of another mod to this, get another CD motor, put it upside down on the original, (shaft buts up onto shaft) with CD between them.
How? get a 6" nail, drill right through the middle, slip the 1st motor shaft halfway in, slip the upside motor shaft in, and use locktite.
Pirate (bill) could help you with tollerances, you wil have to take my word on this.
This will give you double output, when you do get around to using the power both motors make.

Ohhhhhh should I go to sleep tonight? This thread is awsome.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jonnydavro on January 09, 2009, 10:21:27 AM

@ electricme.Hi jim ;D.Take another look at the circuit, i have reposted it here and highlighted the pulse motor and bemf recovery part.The coil i am using is 250 meters off 28swg enamelled copper wire,single wound.This equates to a 250gram spool off wire from the electronics shop,just wind it all onto another spool unless your lucky and they have left the start and the end showing and then you have a ready made coil.I am not feeding the bemf back to the battery yet i am just collecting it in a 4700uf cap.The bemf recovery is not shown in the video but one thing i will say is when i let the motor run on i connected the bemf recovery cap and diode and when i pulled the plug the main 60000uf cap was at4.54v and the bemf cap (4700uf)was at 4.65v.I was thinking maybe it might be better to try and recharge a separate aa battery.What do you think?
Now safety.Thanks for the heads up on the magnets and i may implement some off your sugestions as eye's and teeth are not as replaceable as a blown transistor but the magnets we are stuck with.Not only do they trigger the reed switch but they are what creates the rotors rotation when oppossing the coils magnetic field.
The use off 2 dc motors as generators in a top and tail fashion is a very good idea and you may see that in a future version credits to you.Anyway if anyone still has questions about the circuit i will be only to glad to help. ;D
Regards jonnydavro

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: mdmiller on January 09, 2009, 12:16:47 PM

@jonnydavro - very impressive, what is the core in your bemf pulse coil? I noticed ist was using aluminum which although non-magnetic can function as a flux shield when electricity is involved but I don't understand all the details.

This JT has run for 48 hours on a dead battery which has stabilized the past 12 hours at 0.4V and running strong -- I had pulled the 1K resistor from its schematic position and just had a jumper - the bulb was brighter with the jumper. Two hours ago, I put a secondary 6-wrap coil on the toroid and ran it through a diode bridge, and ran the DC from the bridge right back to the source battery. Nothing really happened, but when I pulled the jumper and replaced the 1K resistor although the led dimmed, the battery has slowly been self-charging and is currently up to 0.7V. Crazy little beast this JT is.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jonnydavro on January 09, 2009, 03:16:52 PM

@mdmiller.The core in the coil is steel welding rods.This is probably the best matirial to use considering the main function off the coil is to spin the rotor via its magnetic field .The bemf is just a useful bi product which we can put to good use. ;D regards jonnydavro.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 09, 2009, 04:50:09 PM

@All

I see every one getting real busy, congratulations all, this is amazing ,great results everywhere , I have really proud to have you all as human brothers. This is only the beginning, many will come stand with us! What makes this great is that nobody needs to put his name on it , and we all benefit.

@ electricme , jonnydavro , gadgetmall , mdmiller

Great work , you have done in the last few days many fans, keep it up.

@all

There is a reason we are here don't think chance is so kind.

All can help in there way even small details.

Ok some test result , my regular jt with 6 turn of aluminum wire light a 7 w luxon led with no problem. There is also a 42 turn copper coil(30volt) on the jt it lights it brighter , I tried getting electricity out of the aluminum coil in a cap , with no success i still can't see anything on voltmeter ac or dc gives me nothing, did manage to get a cap charged when having a led in series with the cap, so i guess a spark gap is a good way to go, a small light bulb should do . Current may be limited by the bulb amps capacity.I have not been to calculate any amps but the number of led in parallel don't seem to create any issue i only got 20 of them so its early to assume that since the voltmeter doesn't see anything
that the amps are limited since there are none to begin with., I also tried a copper wire connected at both ends of the aluminum coil and the led would not light.

Edit: on my joule meg , the luxon screams for mercy 24 turns copper(only one of the 2 coil is used on the Jmeg ) , i posted how i did it a couple of pages back 10,20,30 pages ? It goes so fast.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 09, 2009, 06:12:58 PM

Hi everyone,

The scientist in me took over for the past couple of days. I have done my best to make some order out of what I have made so far but...

I made a joule thief with 11 bifilar turns and set it up in a breadboard using a bright white LED, a 3904 transistor and a 850R plain plus 220R-trimpot resistors.=, just in case...

That worked fine.

Then using 1 meter length of 30 gauge mag wire (red from RS) and 29 leds (all I had) I began to measure the light and voltage used by the array.

First, I must tell you, I could get no reading across any individual led, nor could I get any voltage across the neg of one to the pos of the next in series.

I think this may be important so I want to stress it.

There are 2 voltage readings from the array. One which reads from one neg pin to the next (or any) neg pin; and also, from one pos pin to the next (or any) pos pin. These vary and are individual according to where they are in the array.

There are 10 leds in series. Each led has 2 more (=3) leds in parallel to it. -except the last one cuz I ran out.

The array looks something like this looking into the lights. The flat side of the D is neg.

-D+, -D+, -D+, -D+
-D+, -D+, -D+, -D+
-D+, -D+, -D+, -D+
...and so here are 4 in series going across (but I have 10),
and looking down here are 3 in parallel.

I made 1 loop of the secondary/ pick up:

I put 1 LED in the board at a time starting from the upper left corner. Then I added the 2 in parallel.

It is not possible to see the voltage across the first column because nothing shows across the led from - to +. But it was very bright and the original in the toroid did not change at all. So, I had 4 very bright leds.

So, I added one in series and 2 more in ||. All 6 lights went dim.. I made one more turn and the array brightened a bit, and 1 more and it was bright. The voltage said
- to - 0.34v and + to + 0.04v. and between - and + there was zero.

So, I kept adding more leds and the lights would dim, and more turns to brighten it.

In the end I had 10 columns of 3 || leds each except the last for a total of 29 bright leds.. When you add the original light which is part of the toroid jt it makes 30 bright lights.

It took 20 turns to make these lights be bright.

The voltage from the first - to the last- was steadily rising to around 1.9v after around 10 turns. but the + to + quickly went to 11.7v etc.

Finally all the lights were in but not bright anymore. This was at 15 turns. So, I wound one at a time and each time it got brighter to about 20 turns. but after 15 turns the voltage started to go down.

Now, I don't know if this is voltage I am catching or voltage I am losing, so I don't know if this is good or bad. hmmm

At 20 turns and 29 lights The voltage showed:
- to - 8.35V and + to + 4.45V.

I got the screwy idea to change some whites to yellow and red.
so, with the first column red and the last column yellow,
The voltage is - to - 1.97V and + to+ 13.1V.

end of day. I mentioned a little to you and tucked in.
=====
next day I wanted to see how much drain off the battery there would be. I recharged 2 AAA batteries together, One would be to test this whole array and see how fast the voltage drained from the battery. The other would be for a plain toroid on the same breadboard but without the 29 lights.

So,

in 10 hours the array drained the battery from 1.43v to 1.25v
but starting with hour 2 the voltage was drawn down from 1.35V to 1.25V (you will see why in a moment)

Last night on the same breadboard but with a plain toroid same specs and the battery had lost a bit to time and started at 1.42V and after 10 hours was 1.27V.

Because that first hour of the battery might be a weak start point, counting this from the second hour to 10th the voltage went
from 1.35V to 1.27V.

The array drained the battery 0.1V And the regular jt drained it 0.08V

So, the difference in drain on a battery between a jt with 20 turns and 30 leds, and a jt with no secondary and only 1 led is 0.02V.

that is 20 millivolts in 9 hours cost of running the extra 29 leds.

wow.

Please repeat this experiment, folks.

MK1 is this the kind of thing you saw?

Anybody else doing this kind of study?

jeanna

EDIT:
I am adding this anachronistically. the ac voltage across the toroid wound with 20 turns but not connected to the array claims that there is 1.3VAC. coming from its leads.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 09, 2009, 06:28:50 PM

@jeanne

Great work, And we need that attention to detail you bring , i get the same types of reading but, did not take time as you did to analyze it , Tell me have you had a chance to try other type of coil(brass, aluminum, or iron), now we have data with copper , and you seems on top of things (essential job), it may be a good thing to see comparative, i got a feeling that many things will be discovered .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 09, 2009, 06:32:26 PM

@jeanna

To check the real amount of voltage ac and dc from your joule thief do the following:

Disconnect the LEDs
Put the meter on ac and measure from the collector to ground (with the battery connected to the circuit)
Then put the meter to dc and make the same measurement.

It should give more than 25v to be a good Joule thief.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 09, 2009, 06:41:23 PM

@nievesoliveras

Thank you Jesus.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Freezer on January 09, 2009, 07:25:09 PM

Don't know if this ones been posted already, but it uses the kodak circuit. Ã¾age 109 ;D

http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-build-the-Worlds-Smallest-Electronic-Shock/?&sort=NEWEST&limit=50&offset=50

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 09, 2009, 07:44:51 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on January 09, 2009, 06:32:26 PM

It should give more than 25v to be a good Joule thief.

Jesus

Thanks jesus,

I am afraid I don't get anything from that. I get 0.5vdc but there is no voltage AC.

But this is to common (red?), ground (black?) shows nothing.

but, I think it is a good joule thief, don't you?

@jesus, can you tell me how to tell which is the collector, base, emitter when it is not marked?

I got these to work by flipping the transistors around. Now I am not sure.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 09, 2009, 07:49:12 PM

@jeanna

The base is where the resistor is connected , and the emiteur is the the one going to the neg(-) of the battery.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 09, 2009, 07:56:13 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 09, 2009, 06:28:50 PM
@jeanne

Great work,

thanks, mark

QuoteTell me have you had a chance to try other type of coil(brass, aluminum, or iron),

Mark

Please explain this. I was too busy and didn't get to ask before.

Do you mean for the secondaries/ the pickups? or for the winding the toroid?

thank you

jeanna

I have some weird kind of metal kevlar
EDIT: KYNAR is what it is called.
maybe/ It is covered and I got it from RS last year when they were out of mag wire. never used it, though.

hmm, I got an idea...

QuoteThe base is where the resistor is connected , and the emiteur is the the one going to the neg(-) of the battery.

thanks mark,
What I mean is, when you have the thing in your hand and it has no markings on it.

There must be a way to tell the pins from each other with a meter. esp the emitter/collector pins.

thx

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 09, 2009, 08:09:59 PM

@jeanna

I have started making experiment with other material used for the pickups coil, to see if improvement could be done , so far there is a good reason to think , no stone should be left unturned. I have made some experiment with aluminum and brass used as a pickups coil and i must say i have more question then results, others have started testing iron on the toroid and get exciting results.

I wanted to make sure ,you get the chance to do your magic.

Since you have made a lots of observation on the energy consumption , I think you you would be the best person to test this .

Tell me what you think?

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 09, 2009, 08:10:23 PM

@ Jeanna:

Jesus posted this twice on here but, I did not want to go back and find out where it was, so, I uploaded a copy I made from when he helped me. (I hope it is readable) I needed this when making my first JT and Jesus responded with this picture.

PS My transistors were the @N type (American)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 09, 2009, 08:39:20 PM

@ jeanna

Great work. Buildinga things lets you know they work. But, I think these kinds of measurements will help you understand why things work.

The current drawn from the battery is set by the battery voltage, base resistor value, and the gain of the transistor. The added turns should not make much difference in battery current. As you have demonstrated.

I do think you should be measuring the AC voltage across the secondary leads when the circuit is running but the leads are not connected to anything except the voltmeter. You will find that this voltage sets the limit for how many LEDs in series will light when put across the secondary leads.

Another useful measurement is the AC ma current between the secondary leads while the circuit is running and the leads are only connected to the meter. This will give the maximum current available to drive the LEDs.

The volrage and current used by your LED array will always be less than these values.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 09, 2009, 08:49:23 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 09, 2009, 06:41:23 PM
@nievesoliveras

Thank you Jesus.

Mark

Quote from: jeanna on January 09, 2009, 07:44:51 PM
Thanks jesus,

I am afraid I don't get anything from that. I get 0.5vdc but there is no voltage AC.

But this is to common (red?), ground (black?) shows nothing.

but, I think it is a good joule thief, don't you?

@jesus, can you tell me how to tell which is the collector, base, emitter when it is not marked?

I got these to work by flipping the transistors around. Now I am not sure.

thank you,

jeanna

Quote from: Mk1 on January 09, 2009, 07:49:12 PM
@jeanna

The base is where the resistor is connected , and the emiteur is the the one going to the neg(-) of the battery.

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 09, 2009, 08:10:23 PM
@ Jeanna:

Jesus posted this twice on here but, I did not want to go back and find out where it was, so, I uploaded a copy I made from when he helped me. (I hope it is readable) I needed this when making my first JT and Jesus responded with this picture.

PS My transistors were the @N type (American)

Bill

@all

This is a real good team!
It seems there is a big difference from the time on my country and the time on your country. You are ahead 4hrs.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 09, 2009, 08:59:46 PM

@MK1

I tried your pickup coil idea and here is what I got:
I used a 4-pin bridge from an old PC power supply, a 1.125" toroid, 18 turns of 18-gauge solid copper wire, 4 turns of 20-gauge(I'm guessing, it's barely smaller than the copper) stranded iron(?) wire as my second coil, a high-brightness pink LED(3.5v) on the JT, a regular plain red LED for the pickup, and 13 turns of magnet wire 30-gauge(guess) as the pickup coil.

I first made the JT function properly. I got 3.1vdc at 109mA. Then I wound the pickup coil and hooked it to the inputs of the bridge. I placed the red LED on the + and - of the bridge and hooked up the battery. Same readings for the main JT. The pickup coil was giving me anywhere from 0.025vdc to 0.75vdc at 3.2mA. The red LED lit but it was not bright and the LED on the JT stayed bright.

@ALL
I wondered if it would be possible to channel that tiny bit of current to charge a cap which would then do something useful. Exactly what, I don't know.

Also, which has had better results for winding toroids; a ton of turns of tiny wire or fewer turns of a bigger wire? I have lost 0.2vdc with this current setup since I rewound the toroid. Earlier I had bifilar winding of 20 or 22 gauge stranded copper. I am wondering if I would get more current out of my pickup coil using that again for my main bifilar windings.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 09, 2009, 09:19:09 PM

@ Timmy

You have been busy, good!

Ok , first if you use a iron or any type of materiel for the coil , it needs to be insulated to not create a short when turns touch .

Second , always check the ac and dc volts of the pickup coil, make sure that the joule thief is connected ok , i stress this because the led working is not a 100% way to say you built it right, always check what happens with the led connected both ways .

I have built jt circuit that works the led but still not properly connected.

Keep the good work,you are about to see amazing things !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 09, 2009, 09:47:14 PM

@ All:

I just received a suggestion from my friend Hans Vonlieven, whom I suspect many of you know. His idea is kind of similar to what Jesus has been working on, with a twist. Hans suggested using a decent (but inexpensive) solar cell to replace our AA battery in the circuit. Many of these are available form places like electronics goldmine for under $5.00. Then, using our superultrabright leds, (like my 2 265,000 MCD units) we feed back into the solar cell this high intensity light output. It may not be enough to run itself, although, if done right, I suspect it might be close, but think of the increase in duration we might get? I am not even thinking of trying this outside. I am already thinking about "jump starting" the circuit with an AA battery and then, somehow, switch over to the LEDs/solar cell for the main input power. This could easily be done by using one or more supercaps. (I knew these would come in handy)

So, we fire this thing up, and shine the LEDs directly into the solar cell.....and see what happens. This thing might run for weeks and weeks....who knows? I think what makes this all very possible is the advent of the very high output LEDs and the new supercaps.

I will try this as soon as I can get some cells delivered here.

Thanks Hans!

Wait, I can almost hear Jesus thinking........hey what if we did this AND hooked this up to a Bedini motor????????
The possibilities are endless my friends. I don't believe in OU so I don't think it will do that but, it may actually be able to close the loop and "self run". Maybe???????

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 09, 2009, 09:50:59 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 09, 2009, 09:47:14 PM
@ All:

I just received a suggestion from my friend Hans Vonlieven, whom I suspect many of you know. His idea is kind of similar to what Jesus has been working on, with a twist. Hans suggested using a decent (but inexpensive) solar cell to replace our AA battery in the circuit. Many of these are available form places like electronics goldmine for under $5.00. Then, using our superultrabright leds, (like my 2 265,000 MCD units) we feed back into the solar cell this high intensity light output. It may not be enough to run itself, although, if done right, I suspect it might be close, but think of the increase in duration we might get? I am not even thinking of trying this outside. I am already thinking about "jump starting" the circuit with an AA battery and then, somehow, switch over to the LEDs/solar cell for the main input power. This could easily be done by using one or more supercaps. (I knew these would come in handy)

So, we fire this thing up, and shine the LEDs directly into the solar cell.....and see what happens. This thing might run for weeks and weeks....who knows? I think what makes this all very possible is the advent of the very high output LEDs and the new supercaps.

I will try this as soon as I can get some cells delivered here.

Thanks Hans!

Wait, I can almost hear Jesus thinking........hey what if we did this AND hooked this up to a Bedini motor????????
The possibilities are endless my friends. I don't believe in OU so I don't think it will do that but, it may actually be able to close the loop and "self run". Maybe???????

Bill

:o
I like that idea!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 09, 2009, 09:54:43 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 09, 2009, 08:10:23 PM
and Jesus responded with this picture.

PS My transistors were the @N type (American)

Bill

Thanks bill,

I saw that when he posted it. I missed the line with the code letters, somehow!!!

thanks to you for reposting and jesus for the original pic.

@xee2

I will check what I can. My meter doesn't have the good resolution.

I left my milliamp capable meter hooked up to a stubblefield battery under a tree for a week - ON - And it rained. Pretty not nice thing to do to a very nice meter... It was also the meter that could read the Hfre of a transistor. :'( .

Thanks for this excellent information -- again!

@MK1

I see -- open ended.

I still haven't put the bridge in yet!!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 09, 2009, 10:06:34 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 09, 2009, 09:47:14 PM
@ All:

I just received a suggestion from my friend Hans Vonlieven, whom I suspect many of you know. His idea is kind of similar to what Jesus has been working on, with a twist. Hans suggested using a decent (but inexpensive) solar cell to replace our AA battery in the circuit. Many of these are available form places like electronics goldmine for under $5.00. Then, using our superultrabright leds, (like my 2 265,000 MCD units) we feed back into the solar cell this high intensity light output. It may not be enough to run itself, although, if done right, I suspect it might be close, but think of the increase in duration we might get? I am not even thinking of trying this outside. I am already thinking about "jump starting" the circuit with an AA battery and then, somehow, switch over to the LEDs/solar cell for the main input power. This could easily be done by using one or more supercaps. (I knew these would come in handy)

So, we fire this thing up, and shine the LEDs directly into the solar cell.....and see what happens. This thing might run for weeks and weeks....who knows? I think what makes this all very possible is the advent of the very high output LEDs and the new supercaps.

I will try this as soon as I can get some cells delivered here.

Thanks Hans!

Wait, I can almost hear Jesus thinking........hey what if we did this AND hooked this up to a Bedini motor????????
The possibilities are endless my friends. I don't believe in OU so I don't think it will do that but, it may actually be able to close the loop and "self run". Maybe???????

Bill

this works bill. i did this about a year ago, however i could not get it to self run, but i did not reflect all the light from the led back to the solar cell, nor did i use 25000 mcd or 20 leds as some are running. i used a crappy solar garden light from harbor freight. it came with a joule thief circuit, no torroid, it used the little plastic coated inline inductors. basically i put the led(s) shining directly up and the solar cell about 4 inches above them supported by a clear plastic top from a dvd 50 pack, this lets some of the light out and gives some to the solar cell.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 09, 2009, 10:11:41 PM

@Bill

http://www.exploratorium.edu/square_wheels/modulated_led.pdf (http://www.exploratorium.edu/square_wheels/modulated_led.pdf)

I was looking up how well solar cells work when powered by LED's and I came across this. It is transmitting audio using an LED and solar cell. How cool is that? :o

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Freezer on January 09, 2009, 10:25:32 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 09, 2009, 09:47:14 PM
@ All:

I just received a suggestion from my friend Hans Vonlieven, whom I suspect many of you know. His idea is kind of similar to what Jesus has been working on, with a twist. Hans suggested using a decent (but inexpensive) solar cell to replace our AA battery in the circuit. Many of these are available form places like electronics goldmine for under $5.00. Then, using our superultrabright leds, (like my 2 265,000 MCD units) we feed back into the solar cell this high intensity light output. It may not be enough to run itself, although, if done right, I suspect it might be close, but think of the increase in duration we might get? I am not even thinking of trying this outside. I am already thinking about "jump starting" the circuit with an AA battery and then, somehow, switch over to the LEDs/solar cell for the main input power. This could easily be done by using one or more supercaps. (I knew these would come in handy)

So, we fire this thing up, and shine the LEDs directly into the solar cell.....and see what happens. This thing might run for weeks and weeks....who knows? I think what makes this all very possible is the advent of the very high output LEDs and the new supercaps.

I will try this as soon as I can get some cells delivered here.

Thanks Hans!

Wait, I can almost hear Jesus thinking........hey what if we did this AND hooked this up to a Bedini motor????????
The possibilities are endless my friends. I don't believe in OU so I don't think it will do that but, it may actually be able to close the loop and "self run". Maybe???????

Bill

Check this video out Bill. This guys using imhoteps radiant oscillator powered by a 1.8w solar panel, lighting up a 40w. I also have a small 1.8w cell and will later give it a try with the camera circuit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkheAYI2udQ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 09, 2009, 10:35:03 PM

Quote from: xee2 on January 09, 2009, 08:39:20 PM

I do think you should be measuring the AC voltage across the secondary leads when the circuit is running but the leads are not connected to anything except the voltmeter. You will find that this voltage sets the limit for how many LEDs in series will light when put across the secondary leads.

Another useful measurement is the AC ma current between the secondary leads while the circuit is running and the leads are only connected to the meter. This will give the maximum current available to drive the LEDs.

The volrage and current used by your LED array will always be less than these values.

I get 1.3 VAC across those secondary leads with the array unconnected.

My meter stonewalls me on the mA, as usual. bad fuse, no doubt.

Thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 09, 2009, 11:08:09 PM

@ Freezer:

Thanks, I will check that out.

@ Timmy:

I will look at that also, sounds incredible.

@ Wilby:

See, I knew you were ahead of your time. Actually, with using four 265,000MCD LEDs as indicated in my latest crude drawing, and using a supercap or caps tied to the solar cell and not the JT output, I think this might work, or come very close to working. What do you think? I am ordering more megabright LEDs and some solar cells from Electronics goldmine in the morning when I get off work.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 09, 2009, 11:17:53 PM

@ Pirate

It would be a real nice way to start it up, sun light even a flame (lighter :-*)could start it(more practical then magnets and elegant).I have done some experiment with some led , and i have found that using a pc parts antistatic bag are good light deflector and easy to work with.

Everyone keep there crazy idea coming, If we don't have enough juice we will just find a way to ad a new coil.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 09, 2009, 11:19:24 PM

@pirate
i think i wish i had some 265,000mcd leds ;D
i think you should go for it, after all, i didn't think you would succeed in lighting 2 four foot tubes from a camera flash circuit but you did.

@timmy
yup lidmotor rocks, as do most of the guys over at energeticforum.com

@all
so who's gonna do the jt-> pulse motor-> fluoro tube? my pulse motor is so ugly i don't wanna show it to anyone. have to wait till i finish my tricoiler.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 09, 2009, 11:22:16 PM

@WilbyInebriated

Tricoiler, are you trying the french pat?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on January 09, 2009, 11:33:15 PM

Great link Timmy...another thing linking the j/t to the TPU.

Also it might be helpful to place a magnifying glass between solar cell and the Led.

That may also end up charging the battery.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 09, 2009, 11:34:17 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 09, 2009, 11:22:16 PM
@WilbyInebriated

Tricoiler, are you trying the french pat?

i am replicating this one using wood instead of plexi.
http://www.icehouse.net/john34/kron.html
but i only have 3 coil mounts made and enough wire for 3 coils instead of six.
all my others have been pretty sloppy and ugly, rollerblade wheel for rotor, bike wheel for rotor, no real adjustment on coil to rotor gap, etc. i need a better platform than that to do tests from.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 09, 2009, 11:35:42 PM

@ MK1:

Yes, there are many way to jumpstart this thing I believe. I was even thinking of precharging a cap to 1.5 vdc or so and going from there. That should run the JT circuit without stressing the transistor and heck, if we need heavier duty transistors to do this...I will get them.

@ Wilby:

Hey, I really appreciate your saying what you did about the 2 floro tubes but it is not necessary. At about the same time you said that, if you told me you could light 400 leds with an AA battery I would have (politely) said you were full of crap. Ha ha. We are evolving here and what might seem crazy one week, someone does the next and we keep having to raise the bar. I believe this is a good thing. As for the 265,000 MCD LEDs, electronics goldmine has them for a little over $2.00 each. You will not believe how bright they are. They are the large 10mm size and I think I read on their site that they are actually made with 4 chips. They don't appear to draw much more juice than my other "ultrabright" 10mm leds which are rated at 2,600 MCD.

For about $3.00 bucks, I can get a solar cell at electronics goldmine that is about (if I remember right) 1.3 vdc and 1 amp output. My question is this......will that 1 amp fry my caps or transistor? I doubt the leds will drive it at 100% anyway but.......would I be better to get a cell with lower amp rating?

I want to order this stuff tomorrow.....I can't wait. check out those high output leds, they were on special when I ordered some last week.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 09, 2009, 11:45:11 PM

@bill
i think the 1.3v 1amp solar cell should be fine. it shouldn't fry your cap and the transistor should be 'protected' by the base resistor.
2 bucks... i might just go order me some of those.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 09, 2009, 11:49:35 PM

@WilbyInebriated

I see bediniesque , Very good , every one seems to be missing how much more that charging battery this thing dose. Its also free movement
maybe 1/10 actually use it. I am completing one my self , lets say the pickup coils (30 selenoid coils stator) on a ssg fan rotor 10 magnets n/s stator up and under the disc , it gives me about 12 volts per selenoid coil on a 9 volt load.

I cant wait to share pictures with you guys.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 10, 2009, 12:15:16 AM

@ Wilby and all:

Below are some links. The 265,000 MCD LEDs are still on special!!!

http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/specials.asp About halfway down the page....265,000 MCD LEDs

http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G14741 .5 volt 1 amp solar cell $2.49 ea. I was wrong, I would have to get 3 of these but....so what?

I am going to try this!!!!!!! Wilby, thanks for the info about the 1 amp and the transistors.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 10, 2009, 12:17:01 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 09, 2009, 11:49:35 PM
@WilbyInebriated

I see bediniesque , Very good , every one seems to be missing how much more that charging battery this thing dose. Its also free movement
maybe 1/10 actually use it. I am completing one my self , lets say the pickup coils (30 selenoid coils stator) on a ssg fan rotor 10 magnets n/s stator up and under the disc , it gives me about 12 volts per selenoid coil on a 9 volt load.

I cant wait to share pictures with you guys.

i can't wait to see the pictures!
speaking of bediniesque, i mentioned amigo's bedinified jt circuit back at the beginning of this thread. i can't recall if it was that circuit verbatim or a fudge of it that i did, but it behaved strangely. it requires a switch, i used a simple momentary one taken from an old vcr. anyways when pressing the switch to get it started my analog 500mA meter would max out. if i held the button for 1 second, when i released it the led would light for 1 second. if i held it for 2 and released the led would light for 2, etc. but when i got up to about 5 seconds and released the led stayed lit and would run continuously till battery was exhausted. here is the strangeness, the amp draw dropped so far i could hardly read it on my 500mA meter. the meter is graduated by 20mA increments and it sat about a needle width above 0.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 10, 2009, 12:19:11 AM

Quote from: Cap-Z-ro on January 09, 2009, 11:33:15 PM
Great link Timmy...another thing linking the j/t to the TPU.

Also it might be helpful to place a magnifying glass between solar cell and the Led.

That may also end up charging the battery.

Regards...

@ Cap:

I have already experimented with the magnifying glass and my Dad's solar cell from Bell Labs. (from the 60's) It does work and work well. I always wondered why folks making solar panels did not use this idea...even Fresnel lenses would work well. Maybe some are doing this now but I have not seen it. I was already thinking of a lens or lenses on my mega LEDs and the solar cells circuit. Good call! ***EDIT*** I still have my Bedini motor I was making (started about 6 months ago) it is about 1/2 built. I just kept getting sidetracked but maybe now all of this will come together?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 10, 2009, 12:30:30 AM

@WilbyInebriated

On those circuit a voltmeter can't really see what is happening, the light are not a bad indication , Because if you get the transistor switching fast enough (you don't need rotation , but hell its free :-X),the vacuum feeds back the battery a bit. But the hardest part is to use the very low ground range spike.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 10, 2009, 12:40:49 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 10, 2009, 12:30:30 AM
@WilbyInebriated

On those circuit a voltmeter can't really see what is happening, the light are not a bad indication , Because if you get the transistor switching fast enough (you don't need rotation , but hell its free :-X),the vacuum feeds back the battery a bit. But the hardest part is to use the very low ground range spike.

i know, it's not a voltmeter.
it's a analog ammeter (like these (http://physics.kenyon.edu/EarlyApparatus/Electrical_Measurements/Ammeters/Ammeters.html)) and it was not measuring spikes on the circuit, it was in series as it should be, between the positive of the battery and the circuit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 10, 2009, 12:52:36 AM

@WilbyInebriated

So what is your view on what is happening , i don' have much more than a digital multimeter.I can't really see more than this.

But i was thinking that if one could calculate the speed a witch the coil collapses when switch of and tune the device to go back on before the collapses finish the energy is recycled before exiting ? But that's is only theory .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 10, 2009, 12:58:35 AM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on January 09, 2009, 10:35:03 PM
I get 1.3 VAC across those secondary leads with the array unconnected.

That is strange. I would expect that there would be at least 10 VAC there. I do not have a circuit built now. but I did this a few years ago and I think I was getting about 20 VAC. Thanks for checking. I am not sure what is going on, so I guess the best thing to do is just keep experimenting.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 10, 2009, 12:59:02 AM

@ MK1:

Jim has a scope, perhaps that would show what you mean? If you could "see" it, then you could adjust and fine tune it. I don't know if a scope would show this or not.....

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 10, 2009, 01:07:36 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 10, 2009, 12:52:36 AM
@WilbyInebriated

So what is your view on what is happening , i don' have much more than a digital multimeter.I can't really see more than this.

But i was thinking that if one could calculate the speed a witch the coil collapses when switch of and tune the device to go back on before the collapses finish the energy is recycled before exiting ? But that's is only theory .

i really am not sure, it still puzzles me. i was stupid and took it apart. a couple months ago, heairbear was over and we were talking about step charging a coil, so i rebuilt it and showed it to him. i still have the coil i used, if you want i can rebuild it again and post you some pictures.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 10, 2009, 01:09:58 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 10, 2009, 12:52:36 AM
@WilbyInebriated

So what is your view on what is happening , i don' have much more than a digital multimeter.I can't really see more than this.

But i was thinking that if one could calculate the speed a witch the coil collapses when switch of and tune the device to go back on before the collapses finish the energy is recycled before exiting ? But that's is only theory .

Sounds reasonable to me.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 10, 2009, 01:57:33 AM

@timmy1729

That could work just as well with the jt , That is if plausible.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 10, 2009, 02:19:09 AM

Quote from: xee2 on January 10, 2009, 12:58:35 AM
@ jeanna

That is strange. I would expect that there would be at least 10 VAC there.

Thank you xee2,

I don't get where your numbers come from. Of course if you built one, it would be from experience.

In my efforts to learn about circuits I set myself the problem of getting the best brightness and the longest life from the battery of my led candles. I was all over the net studying things with dt's and equations I don't remember how to work. I know there is a lot to the equation that describes the amplification effect gained when the base allows a certain amount of voltage through to the emitter(?) etc... but the numbers were all in the 20-30 milliamps range and all aimed at keeping the voltage to the base resistor at or around 0.7V so none was wasted, etc.

Nothing was in the neighborhood of 10 volts or egads 20volts.

So, if if it possible to explain it not too obscurely, I, for one would appreciate hearing and learning about how you expect it to be so high.

QuoteThanks for checking. I am not sure what is going on, so I guess the best thing to do is just keep experimenting.

Always ;)

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 10, 2009, 02:29:34 AM

@jeanna and timmy

I got those video for you they will be a great help . The first one is on transistor , really nice one.
The second is on diode for Timmy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZDxYHEuy_g&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdZKxtc8cq8&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sZJgQfO5wg&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvHCQswnjEg&feature=channel_page

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 10, 2009, 03:11:35 AM

@ Jeanna

I did a bit of playing around to see what I could do. I was using a larger toroid, so that may have made some difference. But I was not using an LED between the collector and emitter of the transistor like you are. I wonder if you would get more voltage on the secondary leads if you removed that LED. All of my LEDs were between the secondary leads. It is best to have half of LEDs with + in one direction and half with + in other direction so that half are lit during each half cycle of the AC.

If you want the best brightness and durations you need to find LEDs that are good for that. I have some LEDs that light bright (well maybe not very bright) on 0.0078 ma and 2.38 volts. I bought them at surplus store and tried to find out who made them, but no one knew. They were marked green super bright 15,000+ MCD at 50 ma and 3.6 volts. One of these LEDs should theoretically light for 8 years using two AA batteries. Or 100 LEDs for one month. I will try to dig one out and post a photo tommorrow.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 10, 2009, 03:18:06 AM

@xee2

I never use the led on my joule thief experiment, and got better results than anybody that might explain it.

Very very good.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 10, 2009, 05:15:13 AM

@all
I just found a nice bit of info on winding ferrite coils, this is a little different though, this chapp uses the vertical transformer bobbins.

Let me know what you think about making a 5 bifiller secondary coil?

click here to go to it http://www.users.on.net/~endsodds/tx.htm

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 10, 2009, 05:30:35 AM

@elctricme

I think the space is the limit, and transformer will work at a given freq . I am working on making one with 22x4 turn coil to connect in parallel
instead of 48 turns , to reduce the volt and get the amps up charging faster the caps also easier to work with and better to feed back to the cap or the battery.

Thanks again, good work!

Edit ; those transformer are like the one you find pc power supply ,those are easy to find in all sizes, can be modified to spec.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 10, 2009, 07:55:00 AM

@all

A year ago I was experimenting with solar panels and found this photo on one instructable from http://instructables.com
It has the electronics hidden inside that icebox and a lamp shinning over it that made it self runner. I could not replicate it though.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 10, 2009, 11:07:19 AM

@ Jeanna

Quote from: xee2 on January 10, 2009, 03:11:35 AM
I will try to dig one out and post a photo tommorrow.

I think that this circuit will keep this LED this bright for several years. There is almost no drain on the batteries so they will last a long time.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 10, 2009, 01:13:27 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 10, 2009, 05:30:35 AM
@elctricme

I think the space is the limit, and transformer will work at a given freq . I am working on making one with 22x4 turn coil to connect in parallel
instead of 48 turns , to reduce the volt and get the amps up charging faster the caps also easier to work with and better to feed back to the cap or the battery.

Thanks again, good work!

Edit ; those transformer are like the one you find pc power supply ,those are easy to find in all sizes, can be modified to spec.

@MK1

I was going to ask about that today anyway. How can I get the amps up? I think that is one thing that will get my Earth Battery to work better with my JT.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 10, 2009, 02:18:49 PM

Hi everybody,
I will try to reply to all the posts at once.

@xee2,
now what an interesting concept. I will pull the jt led out and see what happens.

7.8 microAmps? Then all the earth batteries can work...

Timmy - did you see that? wow.

I will try that today too. Those whites I have seem to never wear down enough to warrant a battery change. Maybe they can work on 7.8 uA. cool.

Thanks

@MK1
Maybe that is why I have had trouble identifying things in your pics. You don't use a led in the jt part of it?
Also the turning around part...
I will view the videos when Mac turns home on Tues next week barring any more floods.

Thank you.

@jesus,
What a find. Too bad you couldn't replicate it.
I think since the toroid materials can vary so widely, it is difficult to replicate many of these toroids.

but, maybe we can find some keys to the parts and so be able to design toroid circuits that others can easily replicate.

@Jim.
I noticed when I added a second secondary, that the thing died. I am wondering if you have had more success with your 20 tap toroid ?

Maybe it can zap some mice? ;D

Thanks everybody,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 10, 2009, 02:32:11 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 10, 2009, 05:30:35 AM
I am working on making one with 22x4 turn coil to connect in parallel
instead of 48 turns , to reduce the volt and get the amps up charging faster the caps also easier to work with and better to feed back to the cap or the battery.

@MK1,

I wonder if that increase in amps is the reason my jt seemed to weaken when I added the second secondary?? more amps... more grunt work for the system. lower frequency etc??

hmm.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 10, 2009, 02:49:32 PM

@all

You have to believe me when saying about high voltage thief , do this 2 jt coil at 180 coil 7 turn each try not to go over 3 wire large and 2 layer , On the side left blank wind starting on one side close to coil 13 turn to the next coil then go over those 13 turn back down making 26 turn coil , make one one the other side. This will give you , 60 volts on those 24 turn coil, so when rectified you get 120volt dc , this is not a joke, please replicate. No led between the collector and emitter.

@timmy

Each coil coil is acting as a battery if you ad then in series you get more voltage , or in parallel to get more amps.

@Jeanna

I really get a feeling something is wrong in your windings , because if there not located in the same spot , the in and out are not the same ,
Please reverse the coil wire. Or all the led on that side remember the led on the wrong side worked anyway.
Edit : pickup coils are like battery , they have a + and - , so you need to check that.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: mdmiller on January 10, 2009, 03:10:02 PM

I had one of those "...hmmmm, I wonder..." moments and seek advice.

Drawing on Leedskalnin's writings, he demonstrates the generation of electricity, almost always using a horseshoe magnet and passing coils thru the neutral point while lighting bulbs. Now, moving the coil thru the neutral point should require no energy to counteract magnetic force. This is in comparison to that required to compensate for the magnetic resistance that might be found in a typical electrical generator. As I sit here with some magnets I've formed into a 'C' shape and passing iron wires thru this neutral area, there is no magnetic pull there, it is definitely neutral.

He further mentions fastening this apparatus to a wheel - he had found - was the most efficient method of generating electricity and he had applied for a patent (yet none can be found). Further, you should not even bother trying it because of his patent. Call me crazy but that seems to be a flag waving.

I can envision johnnydarvo's pulse motor with horseshoe magnets mounted on the perimeter of the rotor with the 'C' facing out - possibly on an interconnected wheel to stay out of the way of the pulse magnets. Then stationary coils with ferrite cores positioned around the perimeter and positioned centered on the rotating horseshoe magnets neutral point. It seems this "generator" would require no torque to power (except overcoming friction) and could be run with a pulse motor.

Sincerely appreciate any thoughts (...including -- gee that's a dumb idea, or that's not the way it works, or it's already being done, or an occasional sanity check is a good thing) - many thanks - Duane

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 10, 2009, 03:31:46 PM

@mdmiller

That's the ford model t secret, the first manufactured car was a hybrid you could get 45 horse power power no fuel , if special magnets where placed in the right position , the first 20 000 model t where like that .

And look at the bedini gate.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 10, 2009, 03:44:16 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 10, 2009, 02:49:32 PM

@Jeanna

I really get a feeling something is wrong in your windings , because if there not located in the same spot , the in and out are not the same ,
Please reverse the coil wire. Or all the led on that side remember the led on the wrong side worked anyway.
Edit : pickup coils are like battery , they have a + and - , so you need to check that.

Mark

Mark,

Please understand. When I got the strange behavior of one set turning on at a time, I removed all the wire, and re wound the whole thing to 20 turns.

I probably was winding the wrong way around on the second winding, but I wasn't testing for that so I removed it all.

=====

I don't understand what same spot you mean. (there are so many possibilities to what you are saying)
Does your experience tell you that the second pickup coil should continue in the same direction as the first/

I think Jim's way of pulling out a tap would assure that they are continuing and that the placement is continuing along. (I think that is what you meant by same spot...)

@xee2,

I can not see anything at all with 150K resistor.

However,

I used 1.5k resistor and I see what I call a dim light. It can be seen from all angles and in a dark room with a diffuser would be a night light.

My dual battery pack reads 2.45V and the resistor reads 1.45k.
Ohms law tells me that is 1.68mA. Not much, and as leds draw less as there is less to draw from, this will last a good long time.

Thanks for the suggestion.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 10, 2009, 03:47:53 PM

Quote from: jeanna on January 10, 2009, 02:18:49 PM
Hi everybody,
I will try to reply to all the posts at once.
.
.
@jesus,
What a find. Too bad you couldn't replicate it.
I think since the toroid materials can vary so widely, it is difficult to replicate many of these toroids.

but, maybe we can find some keys to the parts and so be able to design toroid circuits that others can easily replicate.
.
.
Thanks everybody,

jeanna

@jeanna

That would be marvelous if we can design a toroid with the flash circuit as a model but without the 1750 winds, that would be cool.

Quote from: Mk1 on January 10, 2009, 02:49:32 PM
@all

You have to believe me when saying about high voltage thief , do this 2 jt coil at 180 coil 7 turn each try not to go over 3 wire large and 2 layer , On the side left blank wind starting on one side close to coil 13 turn to the next coil then go over those 13 turn back down making 26 turn coil , make one one the other side. This will give you , 60 volts on those 24 turn coil, so when rectified you get 120volt dc , this is not a joke, please replicate. No led between the collector and emitter.
.
.

Mark

@mk1

I did one simple joule thief with 22 winds bifilar #26 awg wire that gave me about 80 volts between the collector and the emitter with no LED or diode attached. Hence on one post I said that if you measure between the collector and ground, that it is the same as the emitter on an npn transistor, 25 volts at least, that this was a good Joule thief.
I have now one with just 7 winds and I will measure the voltage and post later the results.

Quote from: mdmiller on January 10, 2009, 11:22:22 AM
I've looked all over the instructables.com site for the solar lamp self-runner you showed, can't find it. Do you happen to have the link ???

many thanks - Duane

@mdmiller

I will try to get it. At that time I just took the photos and stored them.
I will make a search inside the site to see if I can find it again.
Do you know that the instructable can be downloaded on pdf format and store it on your hardisk for later use?

Edit:
I found this one: It was a competition that date.
http://www.instructables.com/id/SPREE_Solar_Photovoltaic_Renewable_Electron_/

@all
I can post the rest of the photos I have for a broad idea of the vanished instructable if so you desire.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 10, 2009, 03:52:39 PM

@ jeanna

Since the pickup coil are not in the circuit , you have to make sure that you test the polarity of the coil because , the over all design off the joule thief is really important and just putting wire around in ant fashion and place on the coil , changes the polarity if you don't check all the coil and make sure the output is going the right way . if you can try a coil again like you did at first adding only one led and check connecting the 2 ways see one will work better.

Keep the good work.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 10, 2009, 03:58:24 PM

@all

I must really stress the fact that the design of the coil will make a huge difference in results, Please try the design this is important.

If you just do a regular bifilar jt , you get 30 volt max. There is a lot of thing to be studied in those coil design.

@Jeanna , same spot as same place(location) as the first pickup coil , so to be sure always check the led both ways.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 10, 2009, 04:07:47 PM

@all

I will post the rest of the photos anyway. Maybe it can be of help to someone.

It is very simple. It just needs a 12 volt battery, a 12 volt lamp and a 12 volt lamp connector.
The other thing is a solar panel.
I dont have the part number, but it is easy to get one of those and the 12 volt connector on your country.

Jesus

Edit:
I measured the output of the joule thief with 7 winds 26awg wire and it just gave .54 volts dc and .6 ac.
I dont know what has happened.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 10, 2009, 04:38:40 PM

@ jeanna

I wish I knew who made those diodes. They were $4.00 each and I was so amazed I bought 4 of them. I have no idea if they were just some freak result that happened during manufacturing or if there are other diodes with similar performance available. But, if you want to operate a long time on a single set of batteries, then at least you now know it is possible. It is just a matter of finding the right LEDs. If you see super bright green LED diodes for sale with similar specs you might want to buy one and try it. Who knows, they might be the same.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 10, 2009, 05:02:42 PM

@jesus

I understand how to check the voltage on the joule thief , i know all that , but now its time to go beyond that, I get more voltage and power from my pickup coil , the initial voltage increase (the one for the led)is not needed or a connection to ground that energy increase should be put back in battery , this is a transformer , there is no wire connecting the coils together on a transformer , but it still works.

I hope you get what i mean,i know that i said thank you the last time you showed how to read the voltage on the joule thief. But we are talking pickup coil .

Thanks.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 10, 2009, 05:06:01 PM

@all

Following @jeanna's suggestion of having a toroid that everybody can build i made this graphic on paint with the information given by @mk1.

@mk1

Check this out and make any corrections you deem neccessary.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hansvonlieven on January 10, 2009, 05:06:47 PM

G'day Jesus,

You have just done an experiment I suggested to Bill a couple of days ago in a PM.

I think I know what is happening here. When a Joule thief is connected to a battery the high energy pulses are fed partially back into the battery speeding up the chemical reaction, creating an apparent gain in output. Eventually the chemical reaction is exhausted and the process stops. That is why it does not work with a solar cell.

What do you think?

Hans von Lieven

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 10, 2009, 05:28:35 PM

@ jesus

Here are the modifications , the 7 turn coil are for the joule thief , other coils are pickups 26 turns , and the both ends finish at the same place.
So you go from one jt coil(in red )to the other and back.

Make sure the the 7 turn coil are really close together ,make 3 turn and go back over it.

Thank you very much for the drawing.

Mark

Edit the 2 pickup coil in series light a 120vac neon .The one i used on the transformer thief.

Next step would be to ad 2 more pick up coils over the 2 existing one , In series making 120 volts per side or parallel to get 60v at higher amps.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 10, 2009, 05:53:03 PM

@ All:

Wow, I missed more great stuff here. I have to go back and read!!! I still can't keep up with everyone here.

I just ordered my 3 solar cells which, in series, will give me 1.5 vdc@ 1 amp. I also ordered 5 more 265,000 MCD leds.
And, for $1.00, I ordered a bag of 10 of the small slide switches used on the Fuji boards and, for another $1.00, I got a bag of five 1" OD ferrite toroids also.

I am planning on giving this self run deal a go. I will go back and look at the coils and diagrams posted for the high output JT. Thanks again to all of you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 10, 2009, 06:01:45 PM

@ Hans:

Welcome!!!

As posted above, I ordered my solar cells so...we will find out. I believe it will work, at least to a point. I don't know if it can cross the line and become self running or not but I believe it will run for a very long time no matter what. Thanks again for your idea. If what you just posted is true, then the batteries would give out "more" energy than they are rated for for a short time and then die. These JT circuits, in most of the variations we have here, will run a large number of lights on a "dead" battery for a good long while, and will run many lights on a new battery for a waaaay long time. At least, this has been my, and many other folks here, experience.

But, it still may very be something inherent in the battery itself that the JT circuit exploits in some way and it may not then work with solar or NS battery. (earth battery) I am going to try it to see for myself on both of the above power sources. If nothing else, I will learn more, ha ha.

I am glad you posted here Hans. This is a very good groups of folks and everyone helps everyone else, which is as it should be. G'day.

Bil

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 10, 2009, 06:34:16 PM

@all

The coils in the joule thief , when switching on and off it is creating a magnetic pulse in the ferrous core, when the electricity is in that state the power is so far only limited by pickup coil design , I also think that using some iron wire for the coil in the joule thief circuit , cancel some how the amount of amps needed to run the circuit and bring it to the lowest possible .

The question is what is the limit of the magnetic current.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hansvonlieven on January 10, 2009, 06:42:58 PM

G'day Bill,

There is a simple way to test my theory about the Joule thief and its relationship to chemical reaction.

Take a dead battery (not one that has been exhausted by a Joule thief though) and heat it up. Make it quite hot to the touch but take care not to explode it. Make sure it is properly heated through, not just the surface. Wrap it in some insulating material to keep the heat in as long as possible. Now connect the battery to your LED's and see how much power there is and for how long. The heating up will have the same effect as the Joule thief if my theory is correct as it will re-initiate and speed up the chemical process.

Good luck

Hans

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hansvonlieven on January 10, 2009, 06:47:51 PM

LOL

I just noticed, Stefan has pissed the rating system off. ;D ;D ;D

Hans

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 10, 2009, 06:58:38 PM

@ jeanna and anyone interested,

I went back to the store where I bought the LEDs two years ago and they were selling something that looked the same for $1.95 each so I bought two to see if they worked the same. They light up in the same circuit but are not as bright. They are 5mm green super bright 15,000 mcd 45 deg. Anyone who wants to get some can call Anchor Electronics at 408-727-6393 or fax 408-727-4424. They are in California and have a $20 min order. No web page or email. I suspect that there are other LEDs that will also work at these low currents.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 10, 2009, 08:03:12 PM

@ Hans:

Yes, I toast a beer tonight for the death of the rating system!!!!

I will try your suggestion but, I don't know if you noticed my post about running the JT circuit off of a single supercap? (2.3vdc, 10F) I don't know that this proved or disproved anything but, maybe it did eliminate the battery from the circuit? Maybe the caps acts the same way as a battery? I believe I ran the JT with ultrabright LED from a supercap charged for only a few seconds (was empty before) for about 20 minutes. I used an old AA battery for the initial charge on the supercap. When I get time, I will explore more tests with this. Maybe supercaps take longer to charge up so I can juice it longer....I don't really know but, I was able to run the circuit on a cap only. I didn't know if you saw this. This topic is moving so fast I can't keep up with it. Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 10, 2009, 09:09:34 PM

Quote from: hansvonlieven on January 10, 2009, 05:06:47 PM
G'day Jesus,

You have just done an experiment I suggested to Bill a couple of days ago in a PM.

I think I know what is happening here. When a Joule thief is connected to a battery the high energy pulses are fed partially back into the battery speeding up the chemical reaction, creating an apparent gain in output. Eventually the chemical reaction is exhausted and the process stops. That is why it does not work with a solar cell.

What do you think?

Hans von Lieven

@hansvonlieven

The photos I posted are not my experiment, it was somebody elses experiment a year ago at http://instructables.com .
It was a kind of competition they had and those pictures were explained in detail of how to build it as a self running lamp or something I dont remember exactly.
I tried again to get the link but it just dissapear, I just have left those photos.
My opinion about the charging and discharging battery failure is that in order to get more life out of a circuit like this one we need to use an acid battery 12v and replenish the electrolite with baking soda solution once in a while or as needed.
And the battery could last maybe two years as if it were on a car.

Quote from: Mk1 on January 10, 2009, 05:28:35 PM
@ jesus

Here are the modifications , the 7 turn coil are for the joule thief , other coils are pickups 26 turns , and the both ends finish at the same place.
So you go from one jt coil(in red )to the other and back.

Make sure the the 7 turn coil are really close together ,make 3 turn and go back over it.

Thank you very much for the drawing.

Mark

Edit the 2 pickup coil in series light a 120vac neon .The one i used on the transformer thief.

Next step would be to ad 2 more pick up coils over the 2 existing one , In series making 120 volts per side or parallel to get 60v at higher amps.

@mk1

That is great!
The thing here is that if I can make it inside my head, then I can make it on the outside world.
Thank you!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 10, 2009, 09:45:53 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 10, 2009, 03:31:46 PM
@mdmiller

That's the ford model t secret, the first manufactured car was a hybrid you could get 45 horse power power no fuel , if special magnets where placed in the right position , the first 20 000 model t where like that .

And look at the bedini gate.

i have a model t, and all the ones i have worked on and/or rebuilt don't come anywhere close to 45hp, more like 19 or 20 unless you put a v8 in it. i have never heard of this special magnet arrangement. do you have any more data on this?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 10, 2009, 09:54:28 PM

@WilbyInebriated

I am sure i could could get you all , the patent, ford both the invention from Keely , Its the magneto, with 2 strong u shape magnet could rotate freely like in a Bedini gate, Make a search on google patent , on ford early patents magneto.

http://old-carburetors.com/1922%20Ford%20Operators%20Manual/target15.html some pictures of the magneto magnets.

Ford never told about it , he made a treat of giving them for free when pressured buy big oil not to make cars for everyone.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 10, 2009, 09:55:44 PM

@ Wilby:

That's 20 Hp on a good day, right? That is cool that you have one. You are correct, Henry did not get into that Hp range, even with his 6 cylinder experiments. Actually, I am not sure that his early v-8's put out that much. I just got done reading 3 books my father left me on Henry Ford.

Hey, please feel free to post a pic or two of your car. Sure, it is off topic but I would really like to see it.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Freezer on January 10, 2009, 10:10:40 PM

Couldn't resist making another one of these camera shockers. :D I added a pot, and some sockets to be able to try some other transistors and capacitors, so I'll see if it gets any better. I also tried powering it from my 1.8w panel and didn't get it to turn on. It was partially cloudy so it wasn't putting out much power, so I'll give it a go when it gets sunny. You can also use a xenon tube, which can produce some interesting effects.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 10, 2009, 10:13:43 PM

Below is a motor generator that I'm designing. There are two rings of permanent magnets. They form a slot with the magfield spanning the slot at a constant magnitude. Red North Black South. These sit on a disk with a turntable.
Then coming form the other end and supported mechanically is a second rotor which has current carrying conductors (going into page orange dots). This forms a poleless dc motor type acceleration of the conductors. My hope is to replace the conductors with pms that are polarized to form a field replicating a dc current carrying conductor. This rotor is used to drive a mechanical load. The turntable trying to rotate counter the mechanical rotor has pm's that are spun in alignemnt with a stator having load coils on them. This device uses inertial frame dragging to double the mechanical output as well as the magnetic relativity of the mechanical rotor conductors/pms to the uniform magnetic field across the slot The conductors create a magnetic low pressure area ahead of them and a magnetic highpressure area behind them. The acceleration should go unchecked unless loaded.
Haven't done alot of work with PMS except for repairing like a couple of thousand pmdc motors. Any magnet guys know if a pm can be made with a magnetic field around it that duplicates a dc current carrying conductor of say 25amps?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 10, 2009, 10:13:43 PM

@mk1
oh you're saying the magneto could run freely, i misunderstood you. i thought you were saying the car would produce 40 hp and run with no gas just by placing magnets on it.

@bill
i will try and dig some up. it's no longer stock, it's been rodded out with a v8 and contemporary drive train. my father bought it for my twin and myself 20+years ago when i was about 15, as a project to reel me back in. i was a bit of a wild child. i crashed it into a truck backwards and sideways @ 45mph after the back pressure of the motor blew off the collector pipe for the exhaust. i was doin about 100mph and this wall of flame suddenly appeared on my left arm :o so i freaked out, my rod, my baby, she was on FIRE! so i stabbed the brakes, forgetting my fathers warning of not stabbing the brakes because we didn't have the front ones hooked up. anyone ever done a 100mph in their car and then grabbed the emergency brake? anyways, after spinning down the street for 100yards or so bang, i hit the truck. this was the first day i had my drivers license. ;D you should have seen the look on my fathers face and the cops face when they asked how fast i was going and i said ' dunno, maybe 35'. my dad paced out the skid marks spinning down the street and said 'we will talk when you get home son'

lol good memories

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 10, 2009, 10:25:36 PM

@WilbyInebriated

The magneto could actually power the car, it had more hp with it than the gas engine. That is if you had the proper magnet.

You heard me right the first time.

Don't get confused by old idea of what it and isn't possible, It works like a bedini gate.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 10, 2009, 10:35:30 PM

@MK1

There are guys working with plasma arc discharge. You get the voltage up there and you can burn nitrogen and oxygen. Jeanna is a chemist I think she should know. You can also fracture water and get H1 gas and all sorts of goodies with high voltage.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 10, 2009, 11:07:26 PM

@all

On the toroid project you take one wire(one from each 7 turn coil) from each side , they need to be going in opposite direction around the toroid (those go to the + battery side of the jt circuit). That the best way to make sure you don't make a mistake, A schematic will not prevent a mistake there, if it doesn't work change one of the coil lead.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 10, 2009, 11:12:42 PM

Quote from: sparks on January 10, 2009, 10:35:30 PM
Jeanna is a chemist I think she should know.

My son probably thought I was a chemist when dinner was weird, but no. I was a biologist. Then an artist... Now completely crazy making coils that go pop in the night. ;)

@Mk1,
I am taking apart a filter transformer to copy your transformer thief. It seems that everything has its distinct area on the toroid. Is that right?

Do you connect them across the center? So one of them has pretty long leads and it goes into the jt circuit like the little one, but then you connect the secondaries in series. and that output is 60 v. Do I have this right?

EDIT. oops simultaneous post. I will leave it for any correction you need to make.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 10, 2009, 11:18:47 PM

@jeanna

Yes one of the lead of each coil are connected in the middle.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 10, 2009, 11:22:40 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 10, 2009, 10:25:36 PM
@WilbyInebriated

The magneto could actually power the car, it had more hp with it than the gas engine. That is if you had the proper magnet.

You heard me right the first time.

Don't get confused by old idea of what it and isn't possible, It works like a bedini gate.

highly improbable if not impossible. sounds like an urban myth.
i am not confused. i am quite familiar with magnetos and generators and alternators. i have worked on just about every internal combustion engine manufactured from the model t to now. in a model t, the magneto provides low voltage ac to the trembler coil which makes it high voltage and sends that on to the timer which distributes it to the plugs to ignite the fuel mixture in the cylinders. the magneto on a model t is energized by the engine flywheel that has magnets on it. if the engine is not firing, the flywheel stops turning unless you have someone standing on your bumper cranking the hand crank.

@ bill
here are some pics of the bucket t (thats my crazy dad being santa, freezing his balls off) and an old (bout '63 i think, my father is leaning on the car) one of my father and uncle with the model a. last one is my father and his buddy (they are both crazy)
oh one more thing while i'm so off topic... a shameless plug for my father and uncle's book, the falcon 6 performance handbook (http://falconperformance.sundog.net/)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 10, 2009, 11:40:20 PM

@ Wilby:

Nice!!!! Very nice!!!!!!!

The second pic was a model A correct? **EDIT*** Duh! I just went back and yes, you said it was.

Man, check out that motor in the last pic. Very nice preservation of our automotive heritage....with a few improvements of course.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 10, 2009, 11:50:03 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 10, 2009, 11:40:20 PM
@ Wilby:

Nice!!!! Very nice!!!!!!!

The second pic was a model A correct? **EDIT*** Duh! I just went back and yes, you said it was.

Man, check out that motor in the last pic. Very nice preservation of our automotive heritage....with a few improvements of course.

Bill

thanks bill!
she's my 'little red barchetta, from a better vanished time'
283 chevy with powerpack heads from an old 'vette, '57 i think. posi traction rear end from a pontiac, she's a mutt.
currently it has a baby holley on it for a carb. we used to have a big 'ol carter afb on it and she would lift the front wheels off the ground in low 1.

i also have a 2 door sedan model A that has been sitting for 15 years cause i'm lazy and would rather fish and frisbee golf than make money to do a frame up on it. in the past we have had a 40 ford sedan with a rodded flathead, a 49 merc. currently my dad has his falcon fetish going, so he has a really rodded out 60 falcon and 46 ford coupe that has spent the last 15 years getting a frame up rod job. i got my eye on a 53 studebaker of a friend who has too many projects and not enough time or money, but that darn fishing addiction...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 11, 2009, 12:47:27 AM

OK
Since we are so off topic, and to give my fingers a break and to help Jim in his war on the mice, I will give a little biologist's advice. Anyone who wants to may listen in.

@Jim,

This works.

Oil of pennyroyal causes miscarriages in mammals. The rodents know this by smell, and they will give your house a wide berth if they get a whiff anywhere near it.

We get it in health food stores in the states. It is considered a herbal oil. Put one drop on a cotton ball and stick the cottonball in any of the rooms where the mice will smell it on arrival. If you know where they are getting in even better put it right there. They will turn tail... (It will not harm you.)

(you could also borrow a cup of cat litter from a neighbor - used :P :P) but the smell to you is much more pleasant with pennyroyal. It is pepperminty with an extra hit.

Good luck,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 11, 2009, 01:19:14 AM

@jeanna

The two 7 turns coil are the jt circuit coil connected as usual .
One wire of each coil goes to the + battery.(those wire need to be wound around the toroid in opposite direction , this only determined after all the coils are on)
Ok at the other end of the coils one wire goes to the collector and the other to the 1k resistor exactly like the regular jt.

Now the 26 turns pickup coil are going to give you 60 volts dc each when rectified,If you connect both coil in series out of phase it will give you 102 volts , series in phase 120 volts, Or in parallel 60 volt but double the amps.

@WilbyInebriated

I will let it go for now (i got bigger caps to fry) But don't take my word , research it.
To believe a thing like that one need to make is one mind, but to make a educated guess with out trying to answer to it for your self.Is foolish as foolish as saying it exist in the first place.

@Jim

Fluoride is a rat poison it should be safe around the house since they put it in the toothpaste and in the water (in America)

Lol , this one is funny on so many levels.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 11, 2009, 01:33:54 AM

MK1,

I've come to the end of the first 26 turn coil. If I went into the center and out then around the outside on this coil am I supposed to go the same way around the one on the opposite side?

I don't have a handle on phase. I have no Idea how to tell what phase it would be. If I can just get the direction of turns for the second coil, I think I will be able to do this.

My understanding will come later, after I do it physically.

Thank you.

jeanna

now, don't anyone else give poison suggestions, please. The pennyroyal is a strong deterrent. It won't hurt the mice, they will just stay away because they know they cannot raise a family in Jim's house. - thank you.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 11, 2009, 01:43:40 AM

@jeanne

The phases is when the pickup coil is connected the wrong way.It still works but but not as good.

When winding it, you don't need to be thinking of phases yet only when comes time to connect the circuit.

Thank you , keep your good work.

I would not give Fluoride to anyone.

Mark

Edit :The 26 turn coil are like this picture the 2 white things are replaced by the two 7 turn coil.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 11, 2009, 02:24:21 AM

@ Jim:

OK, here is what you do. Take the Fuji AA circuit and run the 2 leads to a lump of peanut butter that has an electrode in each side of the lump. The mice eat the peanut butter (they love that) and complete the circuit and.......ZAP!!!!! Just like we have been zapped.

But, seriously, get a cat. I have a cat (my daughter's) that is 15 and lives with me. My place has not been invaded by a mouse, cockroach, moth, butterfly, lizard, or any other type of invader. She has killed many in her day but now, the word is out......"Don't go in there!!!!" She now spends most of her time asleep, or sitting on my keyboard while I am typing, or eating. Jeanna is correct. If you have a cat, or if (like her used litter example) they smell a cat, they know not to come in and will go elsewhere. They avoid predators. Of course, mine is a highly trained attack cat but, these are very expensive and hard to come by. (Just kidding)

Counting the days until my solar cells get here! Now I am looking for mirrors and magnifying lenses also. I really think this will be interesting.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 11, 2009, 02:24:43 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 11, 2009, 01:43:40 AM
@jeanne

The phases is when the pickup coil is connected the wrong way.It still works but but not as good.

When winding it, you don't need to be thinking of phases yet only when comes time to connect the circuit.

Thank you , keep your good work.

I would not give Fluoride to anyone.

Mark

@MK1
What wire material and gauge would you recommend for the JT coils on this setup? What for the pickup coils? What did you use to get the results you posted?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 11, 2009, 02:42:58 AM

@timmy

Its 19 gauge (big) for the 26 turns , and 22 for the 7 turns. On the one i have built it copper, but i started making one with the jt coil in brass , someone else is working on the iron. Feel free to try any thing.

I should have the pictures tomorrow. working unit with neon light on and multimeter readings. With all wires on the picture :-*.

Sorry my friend forgot the usb cable.

Edit : all wires are single core. 22 gauge is covered.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 11, 2009, 03:15:06 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 11, 2009, 02:42:58 AM
@timmy

Its 19 gauge for the 26 turns , and 22 for the 7 turns. On the one i have built it copper, but i started making one with the jt coil in brass , someone else is working on the iron. Feel free to try any thing.

I should have the pictures tomorrow. working unit with neon light on and multimeter readings. With all wires on the picture :-*.

Sorry my friend forgot the usb cable.

@MK1
Thanks ;D
I'm going to try and scrounge up another toroid and some more wire and see if I can replicate that. Is each set of wire solid or stranded? Insulated or bare?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 11, 2009, 07:24:06 AM

@all

Here is a summary of what @mk1 has pointed out.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on January 11, 2009, 08:47:48 AM

We discussed the Keeley/Ford magneto in great detail on here previously...I believe it was on the Ed Leedskalnin/ coral castle thread.

All that was needed to get the 'T' running without gas was to insert a pair of cow magnets into pre-machined slots in the bell housing.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 11, 2009, 09:13:32 AM

@Cap

Something like GM's flywheel starter but they use permanent magnets all around. Did they use a flyweel magneto on a model T. The diagram below shows what happens in a dc motor armature conductor. Now if the conductor is replaced with a permanent magnet it will keep moving for a long time. Biggest problem is turning it off. Guess you had to go out and pull the magnets out the engine to shut her off back in the day. And in a torroidal winding the conductor doesn't move but the magnetic field compression does. Very fast past your secondary windings.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on January 11, 2009, 09:22:32 AM

Thanks sparks, I wasn't aware GM were also using magnets in their flywheels.

Magnetic energy is so readily available, yet only a few of us ever figured out how to harness it.

We need one of those psychics that talk to the dead to channel John Keeley. :)

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 11, 2009, 09:42:50 AM

ok, so it was discussed, did anyone replicate? i'm guessing not.
a model t engine is a simple flathead, basically four lawnmower engines in one. did anyone attempt doing this on a lawnmower engine? did anyone actually think cow magnets are going to spin a 63 pound flywheel? yup, 63 pounds, that's what a model t flywheel weighs. how many in the 'discussion' have actually put their hands on a model t magneto or bell housing?
sure it's a cute anecdotal story, but one with absolutely no substance. who is the source saying that keely made the flywheel for ford? keely was a fraud, this is well documented. what 'large' city was the demo held in? it was "reported" that it went off without a hitch and enthusiastically received, yet none of these people that saw it were capable of simply placing cow magnets on their lawnmower engine?
the t's heyday ran till 1927 with millions produced and none of the people who lived through the great depression used this 'cow magnet wonder' to power their cars? no one is currently running their lawnmower off of cow magnets either. go figure.

come on guys seriously, anecdotal stories are nice and cute but don't belong anywhere but the half baked ideas section unless you have some empirical data or working unit to a back it up. if you wanna get your hands greasy and try and get a lawnmower magneto to self run, i wish you the best of luck. have it and start a new thread about it. prove me wrong, i'm triple dog daring you :o

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 11, 2009, 09:47:34 AM

If you were inside a torroidal winding pulsed with dc and there were magnets all arranged with north to south and south to north basically suspended in there according to their magnetic dipole moments. A WAVE of energy would be felt moving through the suspended magnets. From one pulse this wave would continue to circulate around the torroid way after the pulse stopped as the magnets continued to move back into the groundstate arrangement. Notice that the magnets are doing the movement on their own. You have disrupted the spin resonance of the atomic neuclei. Now I don't know or care about whatever got the neuclei into a state of spin resonance (the electron does the same deal but needs another electron to do it with) but this power can be extracted from the atoms by a catalyzing vectored magnetic field manipulation. HEATING atoms and molecules is not the only way to destabilize atomic neuclear spin resonance. Conservation of energy sure but how bout the conversion of mass to energy. It's like a top spinning on a desk like at .1times the speed of light. Touch the damn top and what you got is a conversion of the mass to kinetic energy as the damn top either burns your finger or goes shooting across the room through the wall out into the neighborhood across the planet and out into the cosmos.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 11, 2009, 03:36:00 PM

@MK1
Thanks. The drawing makes more sense now.

@Timmy
someone near the start of this thread said you could get results from a hollow core. Coil guns are hollow, so perhaps it is so. If you don't have a toroid today, you could use a straw. I think the bendy part of a bendy straw should be workable. I actually made a proof-of-concept goilgun with a straw last year. It shot a small nail out of its end, so, it does work.

I think it is worth a try and is on my list. -I still have a supply of toroids.

@Bill

Did you ever make a thorough test on the total time it took to exhaust a AA battery that is running your 400leds and also when it is running your fluoros?

I think this is valuable information.

I personally (scientific training talking) think we should ALL be doing this as well as having a "control" on the toroid- since the materials differ, and also the number of turns in the toroid are different.

What this means is something like :

make a toroid.
put it into a joule thief configuration.
Run the battery down, or at least time and measure the battery use.

Add the secondary or whatever you are testing.
put it into a joule thief configuration.
Light or motor up whatever you are doing
Time how long the battery takes to run down or check voltage after the same time as the other.

These tests can be running in the background. The day I did that jt test, I read 1/2 a book with hourly interruptions for testing the battery. So, it sounds boring, but you don't need to sit with it. just keep going back hourly - or something- to record the voltage.

I personally like the idea to keep the same transistor and use 2 different but totally fresh or recharged batteries, but just make sure you state what it is you are doing.

Away to wind another round,

jeanna

hmm, I wonder about the capacitive value of a teaspoon of peanut butter. ;D ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 11, 2009, 04:10:37 PM

@ Jeanna:

To answer you question simply....no I have not....yet. I am sure you remember but I just want to say it again for any new folks coming in, the 400 leds were lit using the Fuji AA circuit and not the toroid JT.

Your suggestion is a good one and one that I hope to be able to do when I get the time. I was going to use rechargeable AA's so I could have a sort of control for the starting energy in the bats that would be close to the same during each test.

I have not had the chance to even try any of the great ideas posted here with the secondary windings experiments either. Work has been busy, which is good as I can pay my bills and spend a little on components and such. It has left me with little time to experiment though.

I have been wanting to make a video or videos using the digital mini cam I got a little while back. The videos won't have anything new in them, but I want to see if it will work OK and it might be good for me to document some of the early stuff I did that I took pictures of. The lens does not appear to be very good on it and the entire cam is the size of a pack of cigarettes but, it will record in high def. so maybe it will work out.

My other stuff I ordered should be in sometime this week. I am really anxious to try some experiments using the 3 solar cells and the toroid JT circuit.

Hey, thanks for your discovery about the differences in the Fuji cams from the outside. I was at my store yesterday and I thought I might pick up another Fuji and the box had a picture on it that looked exactly as the one I had before, and you described, having the AA battery. Well, just to be sure, I opened the box and...low and behold, it had the button with the 4 bumps on it which as you indicated was the AAA battery version. So, I closed the box back up and put it back on the shelf. The camera in the box was NOT the one they show pictured on the box. I guess this really only matters to folks like us. If we were just using it to take pics, it would not matter. Very good discovery you made there, thank you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 11, 2009, 06:04:28 PM

@all

Bigger pickup coil wire gives more amp, for those how look to feed back the battery should try low turns with heavy wire , this can be done over existing smaller gauge coil.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 11, 2009, 06:16:54 PM

@ All:

I just posted a video on the joule thief over at youtube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VYPbOciC9g

I finally got the little camera figured out. The resolution is not great but it is not too bad. I will be making more soon. At least the audio picked up well on this one. Check it out and let me know what you think.

@ MK1:

That is very good information to have, thank you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 11, 2009, 07:23:49 PM

@pirate

The video is good, the only problem is the audio. When I played it I could not hear it well. I think the volume is too low.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 11, 2009, 07:25:24 PM

@all

It would be good to make a toroid like this one:
http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=CHvuty37bTE&feature=related
Any ideas?

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 11, 2009, 07:58:12 PM

@nievesoliveras

Don't worry about the tpu,that will come in time, lets let people get the basics first, Then the sky won't seems so far after all.
I think we could make a better one , there is to much energy , it needs to more efficient in picking up excess losses , that way its not going to heat up. The main difference , in the 3 coil is the way the use them. It could be one of tow things , first way of doing this.

The first coil magnetize the core dc , second coil pulses with ac , the third one is the pickups coil. Steven never said there was no battery(he said no big battery. By tuning the ac freq close to the core resonant freq,to close will destroy the core.
(so one could take a magnet to replace the first coil, and make a good pickup coil to get a decent operative heat generation.)

The second way we are working on it as it is.Now we have 1 freq going on my double jt i had 2. One step at a time ;)

Remember it takes very little energy to create a magnetic field.The limits of the magnetic field are not calculated in volts or amps.
In that state magnetic is only limited by the pickup coil.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 11, 2009, 07:59:45 PM

@jesus,

yup

I can't see the youtube videos this week but I saw it was steven marks.

Hey, One for each home 120v 20A or so...

We just need to do it in public so everybody can make their own. We need to make em so everyone has instrux... etc.

lets keep dreaming and making turns. sounds like a dance.

@MK!

Without the neon, or diodes, I only have my dmm.

What does your toroid show when it is just the first bunch of turns? (the 2 sets of 26 and the 2 sets of 7) VAC . My dmm has never really been able to display much in the way of vac, but with this it shows up right away.

What I am asking for, is your dmm results from just the thing you and jesus drew last night.

I need to sand the ends and take some more measurements and I will share mine.

ooo la la.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 11, 2009, 08:06:17 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 11, 2009, 07:58:12 PM
@nievesoliveras

Don't worry about the tpu,that will come in time, lets let people get the basics first, Then the sky won't seems so far after all.
I think we could make a better one , there is to much energy , it needs to more efficient in picking up excess losses , that way its not going to heat up. The main difference , in the 3 coil is the way the use them. It could be one of tow things , first way of doing this.

The first coil magnetize the core dc , second coil pulses with ac , the third one is the pickups coil. Steven never said there was no battery(he said no big battery. By tuning the ac freq close to the core resonant freq,to close will destroy the core.
(so one could take a magnet to replace the first coil, and make a good pickup coil to get a decent operative heat generation.)

The second way we are working on it as it is.Now we have 1 freq going on my double jt i had 2. One step at a time ;)

Remember it takes very little energy to create a magnetic field.The limits of the magnetic field are not calculated in volts or amps.
In that state magnetic is only limited by the pickup coil.

@ mk1 ...... and i thought i was nuts ... ;D ;)

ist

so let me get this right :) speeker magnet core.. 7.8hz resonant freq control coil wound around magnet pulsed ac ... not too close and a heavy gage pick up coil....

my question is make the control long ? like many times around the ring ? on top each other? all 1 dirrection or just 1 lap ?

i might just whip 1 up dubble time ...

sure makes wicked sence to me!

nice post!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on January 11, 2009, 08:07:51 PM

the joule thief look like a simple voltage amplifier to me.

someone tryed to light a led(s) and see how much current it draw at various frequencies ?

might also worte trying high voltage while limiting current too.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 11, 2009, 08:39:47 PM

@TheNOP
Yes it is simple, except went you built on it ,lol. Welcome!

@ist

Glad to see you back! The geometry and the overall design , will produce so many variables, it hard to say what won't work when done right.

@ Jeanna

Its time to go the the diodes, i will post a new method of testing coil, so If you can't find one , i guess you should find some in recycling electronic equipment, they are every where,You will do good mother nature likes that. :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 11, 2009, 08:57:05 PM

Hi NOP,

Have you been making this? It seems anything but simple.

C'mon... join the fun!

@All
About 2 hours ago I continued with the secondary I was winding last night. I had wound 26 turns 13 each way as mk1 describes. It looked to me that I had enough wire to finish if I continued. I figured this was the best way to not wind it backwards. ut, I ran out at 18 turnes.

So, 26 on the left side and 18 on the right, but not even. 13 turns on the first layer, and only 5 on the second layer.

I checked how it looked before I took it apart.

The lights went on nice and bright.

I had
0.6 VAC from Collector to + of battery
1.9 VAC from the emitter to the + battery
7.1 VAC across the whole array of 30 from the first - to the last +.

(This array voltage was already up from 4.3VAC which was just the 1 secondary on one side.)
The other part of this that is cool is this:

Remember how I could only get a reading across the neg to neg of the led pins of the array - or pos to pos, but not from neg of first to pos of the last?

Well, I checked with the DC side of the voltage after I saw that I had something AC across the whole thing, and I had :

4.8VDC from - of 1 to the - of 30
and I also had
4.6 VDC from the + of 1 to the + of 30
as usual
0.00 VDC from neg of 1 to pos of 30.
These readings are DC voltage across the array in 2 directions.

So, to my mind, they rightly add up to 7.1VAC.

====

I must have turned it or something maybe shorted or not sanded, because with the rest of the 26 turns I am getting no lights, well just a squeek of 2 sets of lights.

I may start over with one longer piece so I can finish what I couldn't before.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 11, 2009, 09:03:05 PM

@ist

I would probably keep a type of iron core, Its easier to play with coils polarity, we will have to test if attraction or repulsion creates difference in the magnetic output from pickup coil.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 11, 2009, 09:15:05 PM

@ All:

Another video from Pirate Labs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcJG_6YF1X4

This is just the 48" tube lighting of the Fuji AA circuit. I am still learning about this camera.

@ Jesus:

Thanks. I just played it again here on youtube and it was plenty loud on my end. I don't know what could be wrong there.

@ ist:

Welcome back!!!

@ Jeanna:

You are hard at work and I am playing with videos.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 11, 2009, 09:33:55 PM

@ all

This is a circuit i use do see what is happening in the coils(test unit), without scope it will never replace it but helps understanding the coils.

The red dots are the probes , you need to connect those to coils , then reverse the connections, getting those data , will help making some sense of what is happening and coil polarities.

The out goes to the multimeter , Have fun!

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 11, 2009, 09:38:35 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 11, 2009, 09:15:05 PM

@ Jeanna:

You are hard at work and I am playing with videos.

Bill

I am having fun and so are you.

In my life I have come to realize, that is what counts!

I will try to watch your videos again. From the xo forum, I gather I should be able to see but not hear.

I will try.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 11, 2009, 09:45:33 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 11, 2009, 09:33:55 PM
@ all

The red dots are the probes , you need to connect those to coils , then reverse the connections, getting those data , will help making some sense of what is happening and coil polarities.
The out goes to the multimeter , Have fun!
Mark

So, you don't even have this connected to lights? ... or does that 1 diode represent the leds? I see this goes after the array... yes?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on January 11, 2009, 09:51:28 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 11, 2009, 08:39:47 PM
@TheNOP
Yes it is simple, except went you built on it ,lol. Welcome!

sorry but i am failling to see what you are seeing. :(

Quote from: jeanna on January 11, 2009, 08:57:05 PM
Hi NOP,

Have you been making this? It seems anything but simple.

C'mon... join the fun!

yes, i builted one.
but without the proper tools to read the volts/amps accuratly,
i can only think it as something to do with the leds themself.
this is why i asked if someone had look into leds, voltage versus current requirements at various frequencies.

as for neon tube, well...
it as no other meaning then having a high voltage present.
you can even light them with a vandergraff generator.

i am not saying that the joule thief is not worte playing with.
for me, its beauty is in its simplicity.
i will use it whenever i see it fit a job. :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 11, 2009, 09:54:21 PM

@MK1
Hello . I need your opinion . i bought 80 vintage transistors and hes throwing in 20 extra would you say the 2n1194 or 2n1309 for the extra highest gain germanium ??

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 11, 2009, 09:54:49 PM

@jeanna

This is made of all regular diodes, no leds are used.

This is a testing unit it just needs to be connected to any pickup coil and the output to the volts meter.

So you can test the coil see witch way as more current going , so you ca easily find the good phase and get the best output of the system.

I you want to got to the next step you will need ,the bridge diode. I hope you did had a chance to look at the diode movie i posted.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 11, 2009, 10:06:21 PM

@gadgetmail

The main reason the germanium transistor are good ,is that it works a very low voltage input. The actual gain of the transistor will only effect the
gain on the joule thief circuit. The pickup coils will not show a big improvement, the gain In efficiency you get to the basic jt circuit is a good thing it will run longer, if the regular output from the transistor is higher it may help putting it to good uses feeding the battery.

You could have a look at the transistor to find witch one need less voltage at the base, and use that one .

Keep it up.

Nice to see again.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 11, 2009, 10:09:42 PM

Geeze, Desertphile has already replied to my 2nd video. That guy must have nothing better to do than wait for some energy video to be posted and then post why it can't work.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 11, 2009, 10:16:23 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 11, 2009, 09:54:49 PM

I you want to got to the next step you will need ,the bridge diode. I hope you did had a chance to look at the diode movie i posted.

Mark

Thank you mark,

I finally understand what this is. a testing unit. great. One diode testing unit coming up!

No, I cannot see any videos this week. My computer will be home next week. Until then, I am very grateful to have this one.

(I will not risk "breaking" anything in this xo laptop in order to get the video. When my computer comes home, I will download the video stuff. Then if it breaks it won't leave me unconnected. sorry)

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 11, 2009, 10:17:04 PM

@mk1 thank you
@Pirate88179
Desertphile is an A** . I offered him a Bedini Power supply for free to prove he was wrong that i can charge a 12 volt battery with a 6 volt he said i was full of and it wasnt possiblle .only pay shipping and he passed .. for get him he is a Bad Spirit !!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 11, 2009, 10:23:13 PM

@TheNOP

This is transformer you got it,every one knows how is regularly used , The question i have for you is in the core of a transformer how much
voltage or amps you have , and that's as simple as that .

I coil of magnetic material will keep its current in its magnetic state , now we are interested on finding the potential of that magnetic current.

Not every one will see the same potential to gain from such experiment but every one is different.

But remember we are playing with dead batteries ;).even if we don't get more then there actually is and just bring it to usable range.Some are already there.
All new electronics work on logic chips , you don't much for those, And if you need light we got cfl.

Thanks for joining the argument !

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 11, 2009, 10:38:54 PM

@pirate

Nice video, i had good sound,forget those comment on you tube , its a brave thing posting there, everybody has there one idea ,but most are not there one, but that is a different story.

Thank again.

Edit:@jeanna

To build the testing unit you need 5 diodes, one on the wire and 4 more to make a bridge diode.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 11, 2009, 11:18:43 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 11, 2009, 10:38:54 PM

Edit:@jeanna

To build the testing unit you need 5 diodes, one on the wire and 4 more to make a bridge diode.

mmmm
I just hooked up a 4 prong boughten bridge. It has 2 pins + and - and in the middle, a sine wave over the remaining 2 pins.

I hooked the + - to my meter, pushed the battery into the holder and touched one end of the pick up to each of the middle pins.

I got 1.56VDC in 1 direction and 0.8VDC in the other.

Now I can see that something has gone wrong with my coil. for sure.

------

@mk1,

In a bridge thingy with 4 pins, is there already a diode inside? There must be so they can mark which one is negative???

@Pirate,
I am sorry to say I can't watch it.

That guy is on assignment. Pay no attention. It just puts you in a place where he wants you.
You are a fine human being. Remember that.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 11, 2009, 11:34:13 PM

@ All:

Another short video here. This one uses again the ferrite bead to light 3 superbright leds. Nothing new you have not seen here in photos. Oh, duh, I found my little cam has a tiny little switch on the side that is for the macro setting!!!!! The close-ups are now in focus! This will allow me to film better shots of the Fuji circuit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZzGIkiLpfQ

@ MK1

Thank you for your support. I have seen that guy around for a while now.

@ Jeanna:

Sorry you can't see any vids right now but, as you said, better to play it safe for now. Thank you for what you said, that was very nice of you to say.

Anyway, today I just wanted to get familiar with my little cam and I guess I did that. Next time I have some time, I will try to make a video of something new. Of course, I do have to shoot the 400 leds thing but right after that.

Thanks again to all of you for all of your effort put in here and also, for all of your positive attitudes as well.

@ Gadgetmall:

Thank you too for your support on my video attempts. I really do appreciate it.

Hey, I noticed we have not heard from Jim in a bit. I hope the mice are not winning the war down there.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 11, 2009, 11:38:28 PM

hey bill, i was messing about with some of the solar cells i have here. it seems the ones i have are most sensitive to ~880nm. hope that helps with your upcoming project.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 11, 2009, 11:45:32 PM

@ Wilby:

Thanks. How did you know this? Were these marked or did you have some way to measure it? I don't think the ones I ordered had any specs on this, which would have been nice. Do we know what the leds are putting out? I have a lot of stuff to learn and do in a short time it seems. I am kind of hoping you will tell me there is a simple way to measure this. Thanks again.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 11, 2009, 11:49:48 PM

@jeanna

Ok i did not know you had one, that is good. Ok connect the + and - go to the multimeter. you connect pickup coil under test one ac connector , and the other to diode.Usually the side on witch you get more voltage is the + side.

But you can also , just use the bridge 4 leg thigny :D, and connect coil to ac ends and read voltage at the + and -.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 11, 2009, 11:55:34 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 11, 2009, 11:45:32 PM
@ Wilby:

Thanks. How did you know this? Were these marked or did you have some way to measure it? I don't think the ones I ordered had any specs on this, which would have been nice. Do we know what the leds are putting out? I have a lot of stuff to learn and do in a short time it seems. I am kind of hoping you will tell me there is a simple way to measure this. Thanks again.

Bill

to be truthful i have no fancy lab equipment. i took leds of known wavelengths placed them in a lightproof box (as light proof as i could make it) which was then placed over the solar cell. the output/response of the solar cell is what brought me to this conclusion. as i said, far from lab conditions, but it seems to be a reasonable conclusion. 880nm is infrared, so you might want to augment your visible light ones with those. careful with your eyes.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 12, 2009, 12:08:32 AM

I just tried my 20 turn pick up that I used for the 30 LED array in the bridge rectifier.

This shows 16Volts DC WOW

It also shows 24Volts AC ??

MK, is this an anomaly? or is this being wasted? and the reason to add a diode to the pickup coil?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 12, 2009, 12:26:11 AM

@jeanna

Yes it can happen , but if you have only one coil on the configuration ,its really not a problem . If you have more than one try to check all possible connection.

The single diode is for test only.

Edit: Diodes drops the voltage a bit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 12, 2009, 12:39:28 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 12, 2009, 12:26:11 AM
@jeanna

Yes it can happen , but if you have only one coil on the configuration ,its really not a problem . If you have more than one try to check all possible connection.

The single diode is for test only.

Edit: Diodes drops the voltage a bit.

Drops the voltage???? We can't have that now.... ha ha. Do they also drop the power or does that remain the same? I am planning on using the diodes off of that cfl I took apart as per your suggestion. I have a lot of catching up to do.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 12, 2009, 12:45:40 AM

@pirate

On the test i just performed , a germanium gave me 40 volt compared to 35 volts. For voltage germanium is the way to go. But for emf we will need something that can handle high voltage spikes , schottky nte585 diodes may work better.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 12, 2009, 01:32:00 AM

MK1,

I am wondering why your design has 2 sides to it, each one being a bifilar with a secondary.

What is the advantage of splitting into 2 groups when the single produces a big effect.

Maybe this question only comes up for me because I have not explored the limits of the single toroid jt yet.

Do you think I should make one half of this in the reverse of what it is? Have you any idea what happened to make the secondary drop so drastically in power?

This toroid has a lot of space in the center. I will be able to get many more turns.

Did you say you have got one that pulls lots of amps as well as volts?

Thank you,

(I need some sleep. I will wait a bit for an answer, then tuck in.)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 12, 2009, 01:50:45 AM

@jeanna

There is a lot of thing i cant see,but don't confuse your self coils are coils , be concern of the direction only when connecting.

There are no bifilar in this design.One jt wire (7turns)on one side the other on the other side taking as little space as possible.
Leaving all the space for the 26 turn coil.

The reason why this is more effective is that it creates a bigger field from one side to the other. The regular joule thief creates only a field between the bifilar wire.

Plus you get more space for the pickup coil.Do only single wire coil for the 26 turns.

Also look at the picture .
It may be easier to put 2 tierap at 180 from each other ,and stat from there make the big coils first, you go from the bottom tierap winding all the way to the top and back down . same thing on the other side.

Then remove the tierap and make 7 turn coil single wire in the hole left by the tierap.

That should do it!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 12, 2009, 02:06:17 AM

@ all:

Here is yet another youtube video I made tonight. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqESU5w39xY&feature=channel

In this one, I am using the Fuji AA JT circuit to illuminate 100 leds. Still nothing really astounding but, I am getting there.

@MK1:

Thanks for your reply.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Freezer on January 12, 2009, 07:19:16 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 12, 2009, 02:06:17 AM
@ all:

Here is yet another youtube video I made tonight. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqESU5w39xY&feature=channel

In this one, I am using the Fuji AA JT circuit to illuminate 100 leds. Still nothing really astounding but, I am getting there.

@MK1:

Thanks for your reply.

Bill

Good video Bill. Perhaps you could build a circuit to automatically charge the AA from a solar panel during the day, while powering a light during the night.

I made a video powering a small dc computer fan. I'm using a 400v 4amp rectifier, with a tip 3055, using a resistance of 24ohms.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dChpI5lvvMw&feature=channel_page

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 12, 2009, 09:48:16 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 11, 2009, 07:58:12 PM
@nievesoliveras

Don't worry about the tpu,that will come in time, lets let people get the basics first, Then the sky won't seems so far after all.
I think we could make a better one , there is to much energy , it needs to more efficient in picking up excess losses , that way its not going to heat up. The main difference , in the 3 coil is the way the use them. It could be one of tow things , first way of doing this.

The first coil magnetize the core dc , second coil pulses with ac , the third one is the pickups coil. Steven never said there was no battery(he said no big battery. By tuning the ac freq close to the core resonant freq,to close will destroy the core.
(so one could take a magnet to replace the first coil, and make a good pickup coil to get a decent operative heat generation.)

The second way we are working on it as it is.Now we have 1 freq going on my double jt i had 2. One step at a time ;)

Remember it takes very little energy to create a magnetic field.The limits of the magnetic field are not calculated in volts or amps.
In that state magnetic is only limited by the pickup coil.

At least we have you that can understand it. Must of us cannot. I myself cannot yet.

Quote from: jeanna on January 11, 2009, 07:59:45 PM
@jesus,

yup

I can't see the youtube videos this week but I saw it was steven marks.

Hey, One for each home 120v 20A or so...

We just need to do it in public so everybody can make their own. We need to make em so everyone has instrux... etc.

lets keep dreaming and making turns. sounds like a dance.
.
.
jeanna

That is a good dream and I think it is possiblee too.
I can draw a little on paint and maybe I can help with the graphics needed so the people can understand the process.

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 11, 2009, 09:15:05 PM
@ All:

Another video from Pirate Labs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcJG_6YF1X4

This is just the 48" tube lighting of the Fuji AA circuit. I am still learning about this camera.

@ Jesus:

Thanks. I just played it again here on youtube and it was plenty loud on my end. I don't know what could be wrong there.
.
.
Bill

Maybe it is my computer. The operating system I am using is very old. Also the machine.
By the way Congratulations for your videos.

@freezer

Nice video! You and @pirate are the only ones making videos at the present time.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 12, 2009, 11:45:20 AM

@ Freezer:

Great video! Your production software is much better than mine. I have some decent ones but they will not work with my little camera for some reason. It makes me use the camera's cheap software. Yes, I could use the solar panels as you suggested, and i might end up doing just that. What I want to try first is to use them, and my supercaps along with the megabright leds to see how they might all work together. One of my ideas is to construct a box using 1 foot square mirrors (as in the clear tiles folks glue onto walls) This will have mirrors aligned on all six sides when assembled. If I can get the 3 solar cells aligned inside with the leds in the right way, I hope to use all of the available light output by the leds as it will bounce around inside...well hopefully.

@ Jesus:

Thank you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: mdmiller on January 12, 2009, 12:11:32 PM

Mark,I rewound my toroid, didn't have exactly what you wanted, I used some thermostat wire for the 26 turn pickups I'm guessing 26 ga copper. The two 7 turn primaries are iron florist wire and the windings are mirror opposite.

The battery is AA and dead putting out .5 V
When running each secondary 26 turn coil thru a bridge for DC I see one at 4.8V and one at 4.9V with the led on. I do not currently have the 1K resistor in place. This is with an MPSA06 trans-- I have a 2N3904 somewhere I can't find it right now.

With the 1K in place and the led out, the pickups rectified measure 4V DC

I'll need to buy a new battery and try it, this is all I had.

I do the probing next but it will have to be later today. Thanks for your guidance Mark !!
- Duane.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 12, 2009, 12:15:55 PM

@pirate

Don't know if the freq. is high enough but you can dump one lead (no steel in jumper) in a glass of water and just set it near the bulb. The lead to the electrode along the bulb. The mercury vapor gets excited by the emwaves and ionizaton and plasma currents evolve. Basically capturing emwave energy of varying wavelengths and intensities. These are radiated all the time but hard to observe unless you excite the mercury into plasma mode.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: mdmiller on January 12, 2009, 02:39:47 PM

A note to my previous test, I found a little newer battery 1.2V, hooked the pickup coils in series, and see 34V at the bridge (led's are all pulled out). With 2 led's on the primary, the pickups in series voltage drops to 13V

This is all with the resistor pulled and a jumper connected. With the resistor in place I get nothing it's a 1K.

I have a 9V transistor battery, can I hook this up or will I blow the tranny.??

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 12, 2009, 03:35:28 PM

@mdmiller

Good work!, ok the coil in series seems out of Phase try truning one of the coil around(flip the connection).
Iron has a conductivity at about 18 % of the copper, And about 8 times the resistance.
Aluminium had 2 time the conductivity of copper per weight.So we know now the a iron wire will work at really low voltage but don't seems efficient in pulsing.(You could replace the iron)

The 26 turns pickup coil are 13 up and 13 down?

My test are made with 2n3904 and 1 k resistance , test battery1.45 volts.

I don't think a 9 volt can destroy anything except leds.Usually the circuit is giving less output at higher volts.

Also on the jt try changing one of the coils direction.

This is all great data thanks again.

Mark

Edit also the switching freq is really important of higher results.

Neon I use for tests

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 12, 2009, 03:38:07 PM

Hi everybody,

Last night before sleep I put the 30 led array on again to continue to watch it with the same battery it had used with the same toroid and 20 turns. I did not recharge the battery. It was a little refreshed, though, and the lights were bright.

This morning they were out.
The battery said 1.00V

I detached the secondary from the array and returned a single led to the joule thief configuration. It lit again.- That was as a plain joule thief.- but not for long.

So, just to see if I could see what is going on, I hooked up the bridge rectifier to the meter. Then I held the ends of the 2ary to the inner pins. The light went on briefly, the voltage said 2.35Vdc. Then the voltage went down, hit zero then the light went on again, and the voltage returned to 2.35V... This cycle repeated itself over and over.

OK next, I was taking it off and the light went on again.

So, I just held the 2ary ends one in each hand. The light went on and off with perfect drum-like timing.

My take on this is that I provided a tiny bit of voltage on the secondary, and that fed in a reverse way back into the joule which then did a timed on-off thing.

Isn't that interesting?

BTW this is NOT the one like mark's. This is the same toroid I used before with this array.

More to do,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 12, 2009, 03:56:22 PM

@all

Look what i just found!

http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/

http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Chapter3.pdf

http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Chapter5.pdf

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: mdmiller on January 12, 2009, 04:12:47 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 12, 2009, 03:35:28 PM
,,,ok the coil in series seems out of Phase try truning one of the coil around(flip the connection).

Flipped connection on one pickup coil, only 0.6V now

Quote
The 26 turns pickup coil are 13 up and 13 down?

I took the wire, measured to the middle, and put a turn around the toroid at the middle and then I alternated a turn on from each side, it should be the same, in effect it's 13 up and 13 back. Now, each turn on the way back down is inbetween each turn on the way up. Possibly this is the issue.

Quote
Also on the jt try changing one of the coils direction.

Oddly when I did this, and each time power is applied with an led in the circuit, it flashes once and quickly goes out. -- appreciate all of your help - Duane

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 12, 2009, 04:27:38 PM

@mdmiller

The 26 turns are ok, the switching freq i can't say(it may be the problem)try playing with resistance at the base.But you have made some discoveries on iron that are valuable, If you get a set voltage on one side and its not the same on the other there is something wrong,the best way to use the power would be one bridge per coil . But i think , it maybe time to go back to all copper 7 turns , for higher voltage experiment.

Thanks again great work!

Mark

Edit: i will try those same wire and i will test it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 12, 2009, 05:21:30 PM

@ Sparks:

That is an interesting experiment you propose there. I will give that a try when I can. Thank you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on January 12, 2009, 05:39:28 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 12, 2009, 03:56:22 PM

http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Chapter3.pdf

isotopic generator, french patent : fr268613, is a joule thief.

the volts are there, but not the amps.

maybe configuring the joule thief for 21Mhz ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 12, 2009, 05:47:10 PM

@TheNOP

You are getting there, remember that there is no resistance in a inductor,So we could load many core from one wire and one load.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 12, 2009, 06:32:44 PM

Good news everybody!

I reversed the winding of the second secondary on my mk1 coil, and ... ta da..

The array lit up nice and bright.

The voltage across the array from 1 to 30 is

7 VAC and
0 VDC

but when rectified, the secondary itself is

29 to 28 VDC
I also checked the ac volts, but when rectified must be some kind of interpretation
38 - 39VAC.

I am Sooo glad I didn't have to start over.

maybe I will give you all a picture break... we'll see.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Freezer on January 12, 2009, 07:03:46 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 12, 2009, 11:45:20 AM
@ Freezer:

Great video! Your production software is much better than mine. I have some decent ones but they will not work with my little camera for some reason. It makes me use the camera's cheap software. Yes, I could use the solar panels as you suggested, and i might end up doing just that. What I want to try first is to use them, and my supercaps along with the megabright leds to see how they might all work together. One of my ideas is to construct a box using 1 foot square mirrors (as in the clear tiles folks glue onto walls) This will have mirrors aligned on all six sides when assembled. If I can get the 3 solar cells aligned inside with the leds in the right way, I hope to use all of the available light output by the leds as it will bounce around inside...well hopefully.

@ Jesus:

Thank you.

Bill

Thanks, I'm using adobe premiere, but this program doesn't accept my native camera format, which is .avi. All you need to do is find a free converter to change the format. I use windows movie maker to change .avi to .wmv which my program accepts, and use the free divx codec which reduces the file sizes dramatically, yet keeps the same quality.

Quote from: jeanna on January 12, 2009, 06:32:44 PM

Nice job Jeanna, are you powering the leds through the rectifier?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 12, 2009, 07:03:54 PM

@jeanna

Great work, keep it up! :D

Nice picture.

Also, If you want to get a better understanding of the device, This is a good read. http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Chapter3.pdf

Edit: Freezer real nice movie, it even has is dramatic feel , nice touch!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 12, 2009, 07:32:57 PM

Quote from: Freezer on January 12, 2009, 07:03:46 PM

Nice job Jeanna, are you powering the leds through the rectifier?

Thanks freezer,

No, I have been confused about that since mk1 first mentioned it. The rectifier is just a way to see what the secondary is producing. You attach the secondary to the rectifier which also has the meter on it and pop in the battery. The lights of course are unaffected by this.

In the pic you can sort of see 2 copper colored wires, each going to either side of the array. Those are the secondary ends straight up. The joule thief is black on opposite ends of the toroid. There isn't a good angle, but...

I hope to view your movie when my computer gets home... soon

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 12, 2009, 07:48:53 PM

@all

This is a picture of my 30v single jt bifilar, compact unit .Working a 7 w luxon led.

I will post more picture. soon.

It has been my bi-filar testing unit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 12, 2009, 07:57:06 PM

@all
You probably noticed I havent posted since Page 113, I had a trip to hospital by ambulance and I'm back again, checked the posts and they are up to "heeps" n "lots", lol ;D

OK I will now go and read them then get back in several hours

ps I got discharged with a canuala still in my arm, it's true, got a picky of it.. :o :)

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 12, 2009, 08:08:14 PM

WOAH Jim,

I'm glad you are back.

(It must be those mice! darn those mice.)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 12, 2009, 08:24:47 PM

Quote from: jeanna on January 12, 2009, 08:08:14 PM
WOAH Jim,

I'm glad you are back.

(It must be those mice! darn those mice.)

jeanna

Oh, speaking of darn mice...
Is that Pennyroyal you mentioned poisonous to dogs should they somehow get hold of the cotton ball with that stuff on it?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 12, 2009, 08:41:27 PM

@ jeanna

Congratulations. Are you using the two secondary copper coils in series? Or, are you just using one of the copper secondary coils?

@ Mk1,

Very nice fabrication job.

@ Freezer,

I like all of your videos. Well done.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 12, 2009, 08:54:22 PM

That the project joule transformer, in single pickup coil 66 volt , 101 volt in a out of phase , 120 volt in phase. The 120 vac neon works at 102 volts, the volt meter still shows 13 volt , on 120 meter shows 25 volt under neon load.

Jim , you take care!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 12, 2009, 09:04:17 PM

@ All:

Here is yet another video on youtube showing that a JT circuit can light an LED using only a supercap.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWNGUJdQACU

@ Jim:

Holy crap!! I hope you are ok now. I had a feeling something was not right down there. Seriously, I hope everything is ok now.

@ MK1:

Nice pictures man!!!! Now THAT is a Joule thief!!!! Very well done!

@ Jeanna:

Excellent work as always. I admire the way you keep at something if you don't get it to work the first time. a lot of folks do not work this way. Very good for you. Nice job!!!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Freezer on January 12, 2009, 09:27:19 PM

Nice thief Mk1, that's a pretty good output.

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 12, 2009, 09:04:17 PM
@ All:

Here is yet another video on youtube showing that a JT circuit can light an LED using only a supercap.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWNGUJdQACU

Bill

Nice. I did get the regular joule thief to work off the 1.8w solar panel, but not the fuji circuit. I still think the fuji circuit can work, it just needs adjustment, and perhaps the right capacitor.

I found this funny product..
http://www.x-tremegeek.com/templates/searchdetail.asp?sk=MX71419&productID=22498

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: mdmiller on January 12, 2009, 09:47:51 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 12, 2009, 08:54:22 PM
That the project joule transformer, in single pickup coil 66 volt , 101 volt in a out of phase , 120 volt in phase. The 120 vac neon works at 102 volts, the volt meter still shows 13 volt , on 120 meter shows 25 volt under neon load.

Jim , you take care!

Mark you are truly inspirational, (and everyone else here, too ! !)

Question on one of your pictures, I think it was image "IMGP0556.JPG", there are with some white squares on the back of the coil down the axis between the JT coils. What are these ??

many thanks - Duane

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 12, 2009, 09:49:41 PM

Just another video of the JT toroid circuit powering 3 leds from a supercap only.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xn3QVoxHH7E

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 12, 2009, 09:55:14 PM

@Mdmiller

Those are mini neo magnets.Found in the Cd or dvd head, Recycling!

@pirate

Nice video , i am looking at the comment. great work!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: mdmiller on January 12, 2009, 10:11:16 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 12, 2009, 09:55:14 PM
@Mdmiller

Those are mini neo magnets.Found in the Cd or dvd head, Recycling!

...hmmmm, I didn't have that in the JT recipe (although I had neo's tacked onto my toroid yesterday for testing). they appear to have the same pole face in alignment, and bridging the JT coils. can you tell us more about their use ? is the high voltage you are getting dependent upon them? many thanks ! !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 12, 2009, 10:23:24 PM

@mdmiller

I just started testing , sending the ac output from regular jt to the high power jt since its ac i want the test pre-stressed toroid, since its the second transformer , i am still testing . Will give more results as soon as possible.

It will not be needed to get the the same results, they are not used on the test pictures.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 12, 2009, 10:36:50 PM

@all

Most here have made the bedini battery charger, i made mine from a big pc fan.
It has 2 neo disc with 5 pc hd neo magnets in , For generating some more juice,You can see the over all design. When completed it will have 30 of those gray coil , they give me 12 volts each with a 9 volts battery , and about 24volts with a 12 volt load.Now this is not overunity , but i did not finish it. I also found this really nice core for a custom version.

@jim , I am currently training this one for you, its not going well.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 12, 2009, 11:47:00 PM

My video of modified Fuji AA circuit lighting 200 leds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co4WsKOcJk0

@ MK1:

I too have been working on a Bedini, but not lately, but mine looks nothing like yours man!!! That thing is a Bedini on steroids! Nice cat there and yes, I am sure Jim could use one. In the video posted above, you can see me almost fall over while filming because my highly trained attack cat decided she wanted to jump onto the table (her table) while my Fuji circuit was energized. since this was not a good idea and she does not really understand all that much about electricity, I decided to intervene. Of course when she got mad and raced into the other room, I almost stepped on her and just about fell over. She is 15+ years old and still acts like a kitten when she is not sleeping.

I said from the begining that when/if we combine the JT with Bedini/earth battery/solar/etc. who the heck knows what will happen?

Very nice motor man.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 12, 2009, 11:57:35 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 12, 2009, 10:36:50 PM
@all

Most here have made the bedini battery charger, i made mine from a big pc fan.
It has 2 neo disc with 5 pc hd neo magnets in , For generating some more juice,You can see the over all design. When completed it will have 30 of those gray coil , they give me 12 volts each with a 9 volts battery , and about 24volts with a 12 volt load.Now this is not overunity , but i did not finish it. I also found this really nice core for a custom version.

@jim , I am currently training this one for you, its not going well.

nice energizer mark! that is an interesting geometry, hope you keep us up to date on its progress

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 13, 2009, 12:22:21 AM

Well, I did some playing around yesterday to duplicate my best results so far. I wanted to make sure I wasn't getting my hard earned 3.2vdc by a mistake. I rewound my 1.125" toroid with stranded copper bifilar using wire out of a CAT5 cable. I hooked one wire to a 1K ohm resistor and the other to a TIP120 Darlington transistor. I ran a germanium diode up to the LED, put a 10v 2200uF cap across the LED, and hooked the LED to the emitter and soldered a little length of wire to go to the battery from the LED/emitter connection.
I got:
3.2vdc
0.002vac
104mA

I added another 10v 2200uF cap in parallel and got nothing. It took away maybe 0.1mA but I didn't gain anything. Unless I understand less about caps than I thought I did, shouldn't that give me some kind of increase somewhere?

Anyway, using one cap and the exact same setup, I replaced the Darlington transistor with two 2N3904 transistors connected in a Darlington pair. The results with that were:
2.9vdc
.002 vac
115mA
measured after the cap on the + of the LED and on the connection of the LED and emitter.

when I measured across the collector and - going to battery:
1.3vdc
.716vac
157mA

2 caps made no difference here either. I guess I thought that putting two of those caps in parallel would give me a boost somewhere. If anyone wants to give a quick explanation on why another 2200uF 10v cap did nothing for either setup, please do. I'm very curious.

@MK1
Are you all getting those higher voltages simply with the pickup coil through inductance or through the JT somewhere?

Sorry for such a messy post. It's been a LONG day.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 13, 2009, 12:26:02 AM

@ all
A hello to the new posters, comeon board chaps.

OK jim here, I have read all the posts, they are very outstanding, theres a jewell box of information here now.
On late sat night I came across some very interresting info, but got to look it up again to make sure, but the gist of it is this.

Torrids - primary, 1 volt = 1 turn, secondaries can be many turns.
There is a fellow on a web forum in australia, need to get in touch with him personally to see if he can give me more info, he is a gooroo on torrids it seems.

Thanks to MK1
I noticed Hans posts, thanks hans.

Right, first off, thanks to everyone who sent me the most kind words regarding my recient illness, brief as it was, the heeps of leg pulling, wonderful, I enjoyed it immensly, you all are really a pritty good bunch of boys and girls.

Jeanna, de mice are not winning, dey snuckup and hit me from behind ha ha.
I'm winning da war (faith)

Seriously, I know you are all curious, so I will briefly explain, I have Diverticulitis, which means somehow or other small grapefruit size "out-pouches" formed on the "outside" of my colyn wall. Don't know how it happens, but it did, and if the small open hole between bowel and out-pouch gets blocked, it builds pressure, causes discomfort, then within hours one suffers the most agonizeing pain as poison poors into the bowel
I don't remember the trip to hosp, I was shivering as I went into toxic shock.

For instance I was posting on the PC, turned it off, had a shower about 12.30AM, by 3am I'm crook, by 5am im reall crook, water pooring from my forehead like rain drops, PJ top soaked, head fainting, treatment 9 injections pain killers, in 3 days. Drs wanted me to have a "silver stallion" colonoscopy, boy Im brave posting this but it is necessary, because I discovered there is a great percentage of population who are getting about who don't know they have it.

This makes appendicitis be put in the fun bag of tricks.
Im still very sore, and to boot they sent me outa hospital with the drip still attatched in my arm.
Well to be fair, the nursing staff were so busy with one critically ill chap in a bad way all night next to me, then there was lights and alarms going on and off all night long, this morning people being prepd for surgery, an older chap being transferred from hosp to hosp, and me mixed up with it all in the middle.

The Doc said go home jim, the daughter turned up, I got dressed, I forgot about the drip needle stuck in my left elbow, as the staff had, and I walked out in socks with it in plane site for all to see and no-one saw it.
No worries, Its all fixed up, the staff will be told to keep their end in order (they were just overun on their feet, as I said to matron).

see http://www.gesa.org.au/leaflets/diverticulitis.cfm I accidently put a .com here when it hasnt got one

@ bill thanks for noticing I had not been here a while, I was thinking when was someone going to miss me.
Now I gota rest up a bit, I still sore.

Yep I had a little fun to day lol
PS thanks for pulling my leg, loved it.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 13, 2009, 12:38:02 AM

Quote from: electricme on January 13, 2009, 12:26:02 AM
@ all
A hello to the new posters, comeon board chaps.

OK jim here, I have read all the posts, they are very outstanding, theres a jewell box of information here now.
On late sat night I came across some very interresting info, but got to look it up again to make sure, but the gist of it is this.

Torrids - primary, 1 volt = 1 turn, secondaries can be many turns.
There is a fellow on a web forum in australia, need to get in touch with him personally to see if he can give me more info, he is a gooroo on torrids it seems.

Thanks to MK1
I noticed Hans posts, thanks hans.

Right, first off, thanks to everyone who sent me the most kind words regarding my recient illness, brief as it was, the heeps of leg pulling, wonderful, I enjoyed it immensly, you all are really a pritty good bunch of boys and girls.

Jeanna, de mice are not winning, dey snuckup and hit me from behind ha ha.
I'm winning da war (faith)

Seriously, I know you are all curious, so I will briefly explain, I have Diverticulitis, which means somehow or other small grapefruit size "out-pouches" formed on the "outside" of my colyn wall. Don't know how it happens, but it did, and if the small open hole between bowel and out-pouch gets blocked, it builds pressure, causes discomfort, then within hours one suffers the most agonizeing pain as poison poors into the bowel
I don't remember the trip to hosp, I was shivering as I went into toxic shock.

For instance I was posting on the PC, turned it off, had a shower about 12.30AM, by 3am I'm crook, by 5am im reall crook, water pooring from my forehead like rain drops, PJ top soaked, head fainting, treatment 9 injections pain killers, in 3 days. Drs wanted me to have a "silver stallion" colonoscopy, boy Im brave posting this but it is necessary, because I discovered there is a great percentage of population who are getting about who don't know they have it.

This makes appendicitis be put in the fun bag of tricks.
Im still very sore, and to boot they sent me outa hospital with the drip still attatched in my arm.
Well to be fair, the nursing staff were so busy with one critically ill chap in a bad way all night next to me, then there was lights and alarms going on and off all night long, this morning people being prepd for surgery, an older chap being transferred from hosp to hosp, and me mixed up with it all in the middle.

The Doc said go home jim, the daughter turned up, I got dressed, I forgot about the drip needle stuck in my left elbow, as the staff had, and I walked out in socks with it in plane site for all to see and no-one saw it.
No worries, Its all fixed up, the staff will be told to keep their end in order (they were just overun on their feet, as I said to matron).

see http://www.gesa.org.au/leaflets/diverticulitis.cfm I accidently put a .com here when it hasnt got one

@ bill thanks for noticing I had not been here a while, I was thinking when was someone going to miss me.
Now I gota rest up a bit, I still sore.

Yep I had a little fun to day lol
PS thanks for pulling my leg, loved it.

jim

I had a bad spell last year and my Dr didn't know whether it was that or not. I got off easy with antibiotics and a CT scan or MRI. BTW, barium will MESS YOU UP. 'Nuff said. So, from what you said, I'm glad it turned out not to be that. Great to have you back!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 13, 2009, 12:40:52 AM

@jim
glad to hear you are doing better!

@timmy
the higher voltages they are recording is because there is no load, when you load it, the voltage drops. not loading a circuit will change all sorts of things in comparison to when it is loaded.

to quote charlie_v from another thread (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6512.msg149393#msg149393).
"A transformer only converts voltage to current or current to voltage, the power or energy in the transformer is the same (Power = Voltage x Current). So you can take 50 Watts of power and produce 5000 Volts but the maximum current your load can draw would be 0.01 Amps. If your load requires more current than that (i.e. your load is a very small resistance), the power source will not be able to supply it and the voltage in the transformer will begin to drop. Likewise, with 50 Watts you can transform the voltage to 0.005V and the current available will be 10,000 Amps. Of course you'd need very thick wires of very low resistance to handle that much current without over heating and melting the transformer's wire - your load would need to be a very low resistance too).
...The transformer does not create energy, it is only a pressure/flow converter. So feeding back the output of the transformer even if it is high voltage, will not be able to take the place of a generator. This is mainly because the losses in the system bring the operation down to below 100%. If you had 100%, then no loss would be in the generator, and you could close the loop as long as you didn't pull any energy from the system."

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 13, 2009, 02:21:42 AM

Yikes, Seed Savers club put me back a few pages.

@Timmy,
The reason pennyroyal works to repel mammals is that they are well aware that they will not succeed in their breeding imperative.

A dog would stay away. It causes miscarriage in the females. It does not kill.

So, don't worry that your dog will be hurt. But if it is female and pregnant, she could miscarry if she cannot get away because she lives inside. Pennyroyal is not a poison.

Quote from: xee2 on January 12, 2009, 08:41:27 PM
@ jeanna

Congratulations. Are you using the two secondary copper coils in series? Or, are you just using one of the copper secondary coils?

Yes. It is hard to describe, but it is my effort to make the one mark has been experimenting on. It has 2 2-layer coils that form the joule thief segment. The secondary wires are in series and also 2-layer. you can not see where I twisted them together.

EDIT. actually you can - the twisted pair sticking up is their connection.

When I wound the first one up then down again, I crossed over to the other side and did the same thing up then down.

Since they were 2 wires, when I put them together the first time I put the wrong pieces together.

I think the way it is supposed to go is in series, yes.

The lower layer of the coil must go in the same direction on both of them so the currents inside the toroid are continuing to move around in one way.

The tricky part there is that when you wind the second layer of the left side you must cross over to the right side and begin turning the opposite way. It is a head spinner.

Perhaps it would be best if the joule thief wires were also made so the lower layer were also going in the same direction. Maybe mk's are that way and that is why his voltage is so high.

Mark did you do it that way?

I will check all of mine in the morning. It is too late to do anything that requires being awake. ;D

In fact I may have it exactly wrong. I will recheck in the morning.

The part that is hard is that although the wires touching he toroid are turning the same way, the starting place is in the opposite direction. That is why it FEELS wrong to do it right.

I have perhaps made it worse by saying all this. If so, I apologize.

It is really hard to explain.

Thank you Mark for your persistence and patience. There is still more, but this piece now makes building sense to me.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: AbbaRue on January 13, 2009, 02:45:33 AM

Finally finished reading all the new posts. WOW!

@jeanna
Just out of curiosity, try reading the voltage across your 30 LED's. Starting at the 2nd LED and ending at the 29th.
Then try measuring the voltage across the array starting at the 3rd LED and the 28th LED.
Try each of of the legs of those LED's and let me know if you get a fairly high voltage reading.
I had 40 LED's connected in series all light up and got a fairly high voltage reading when I tried this.
I measured close to 100 volts across the array, and noticed a few of them burned out on me.
So I removed some of the LED's which caused the voltage to decrease.
I figure you should get about 70 volts across those 30. Just a guess.

@timmy1729
When you connect more capacitors in parallel you won't see an increase in your output readings.
What you will see is that anything you run off the capacitors will run for a longer time after you cut the power.
That is the purpose for Pirates 10 Farad super caps.
He can run the Joule Thief for some time after the power is disconnected.

@Mk1
Those chapters you posted Chapter 3 and Chapter 5 are from the Free Energy Guide I suggested everyone download.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6394.0
This guide is priceless. I still have a lot of reading to do.
But most of what we are doing here can be found in there.
At least some reference to it.

@All
I think this is one of the best threads on this forum, a project that almost anyone can build and experiment with.
The things you will learn are priceless.
And the mysteries that need to be solved are many.
And just think this is for real! ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 13, 2009, 03:15:11 AM

@timmy

All the power i got came from the pickup coils , nothing else is connected to the jt circuit in any way.

@jeanna

You are getting there, you are making great progress! keep it up.

@abbarue

Nice seeing you again.And yes the information is really valuable, make a hard copy. Keep it safe.

@all

Thank for being here and the positive comment about my cat(and experiment) Miton got more hits then the other picture , he just won't stop bragging. Keep a good spirit January will be long this year.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 13, 2009, 07:42:52 AM

@ all

A couple of free software programs have come to my attention, from the good folks at MICROMETALS in Australia.

These are called "Inductor Design Software" and "RF Design Software" I have downloaded them but not tried them yet.

Both can be downloaded from these good folks at http://www.micrometals.com/software_index.html

I have also asked them to forward me a couple of samples, via their most kind sample offer, I will keep all posted.

I also in my internet travels discovered some more information regarding torrids, a Warpspeed on the backshed windmill forum seems to know what he is doing with torrid figgures.
I found this last Saturday night just before my hospital trip, unfortunitatly I couldnt post it until now.

http://www.thebackshed.com/windmill/FORUM1/forum_posts.asp?TID=753&PN=1

Take a look at this Warpspeed, he makes very interresting reading, some I think we can use in our endeavours, I will try to compact him shortly and see if he could give us any pointers.

@MK1
Thankyou for the kindness you express on a few pics of your beadinee board project, I was very touched by this so was my wife.

@ jeanna,
Thankyou for the suggestions on the cat end product stuff, that is something to think about, I have to go back and read it all up again in the morning, your knowledge about science is quite astounding.

@ bill,
If I'm not in the end of the que, just box up your cat for me, and send it over, ha ha I love those light Blue LED eyes, whacko mate.

Now, someone mentioned a JT output placed between a dollop of peanut butter, hmmm this could work if done right, got promice this one.

Isn't it amasing, a better mouse trap might evolve outa this, just imagine the advertising
"Wonderful Mousetrap discovered by the good folks at OU"

I gotta win da war on miceeees, day not gonna win, I win. (positive thinking)

I had a black cat, so black his coat was deep red, we called him "puss" he was a good mouser, and I still miss the 14 YO fella

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 13, 2009, 08:13:57 AM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on January 13, 2009, 12:40:52 AM
@jim
glad to hear you are doing better!

@timmy
the higher voltages they are recording is because there is no load, when you load it, the voltage drops. not loading a circuit will change all sorts of things in comparison to when it is loaded.

to quote charlie_v from another thread (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6512.msg149393#msg149393).
"A transformer only converts voltage to current or current to voltage, the power or energy in the transformer is the same (Power = Voltage x Current). So you can take 50 Watts of power and produce 5000 Volts but the maximum current your load can draw would be 0.01 Amps. If your load requires more current than that (i.e. your load is a very small resistance), the power source will not be able to supply it and the voltage in the transformer will begin to drop. Likewise, with 50 Watts you can transform the voltage to 0.005V and the current available will be 10,000 Amps. Of course you'd need very thick wires of very low resistance to handle that much current without over heating and melting the transformer's wire - your load would need to be a very low resistance too).
...The transformer does not create energy, it is only a pressure/flow converter. So feeding back the output of the transformer even if it is high voltage, will not be able to take the place of a generator. This is mainly because the losses in the system bring the operation down to below 100%. If you had 100%, then no loss would be in the generator, and you could close the loop as long as you didn't pull any energy from the system."

In the power = voltage times amps let us not forget the time factor. If you can get the voltage and amps flowing a million times a second it screws around alot more with the status quo distribution of charge and it's magnetic field disruption when the charges move. (charges can move without mass moving by the way).
This phenomenon is so disruptive that it will radiate the power out of the system in the form of heat or emwaves unless provisions are made to confine this gain in energy to the field in question.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 13, 2009, 08:20:50 AM

@all

Everybody here desrves an A+.

@electricme
I wish you to get well!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 13, 2009, 08:40:16 AM

Quote from: sparks on January 13, 2009, 08:13:57 AM
In the power = voltage times amps let us not forget the time factor. If you can get the voltage and amps flowing a million times a second it screws around alot more with the status quo distribution of charge and it's magnetic field disruption when the charges move. (charges can move without mass moving by the way).
This phenomenon is so disruptive that it will radiate the power out of the system in the form of heat or emwaves unless provisions are made to confine this gain in energy to the field in question.

You mind translating for the electrically challenged among us(i.e. me). I'm guessing I get the idea. Someone said on overunity.com that the only difference between a lot of electricity and an explosion is the time it takes to release the energy. Do you mean something like that? Or do I just need more caffeine? BTW, I don't care what anyone says, 7am is too early to be at work. :-\

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 13, 2009, 08:47:00 AM

Quote from: AbbaRue on January 13, 2009, 02:45:33 AM
Finally finished reading all the new posts. WOW!

@timmy1729
When you connect more capacitors in parallel you won't see an increase in your output readings.
What you will see is that anything you run off the capacitors will run for a longer time after you cut the power.
That is the purpose for Pirates 10 Farad super caps.
He can run the Joule Thief for some time after the power is disconnected.

I did notice that when I added the 2200uF cap that the LED produces light in some form for a couple of minutes. It's pretty cool, to me at least. So, does the voltage not play a big part in this? Is the 2200uF the amount of charge at the 10v?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 13, 2009, 08:54:01 AM

@ jeanna and anyone else interested

You will get the most voltage if all of your secondary coil turns go around the toroid in the same direction. If you take one side of the toroid and call it the top, then all turns should go from the outside of the toroid to the inside of the toroid when seen from the top (or all turns can go from the inside of toroid to the outside, either way as long as all turns are going the same way). If you use two layers for your coils, then both layers should go around the toroid in the same direction. Just bring the wire for the second layer back to the start of the first layer and start the second layer right on top of the start of the first layer. When the two layer are wound in opposite directions the current induced in one layer will be going in the opposite direction to the current induced in the other layer and they will try to cancel.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 13, 2009, 09:18:05 AM

Quote from: sparks on January 13, 2009, 08:13:57 AM
In the power = voltage times amps let us not forget the time factor. If you can get the voltage and amps flowing a million times a second it screws around alot more with the status quo distribution of charge and it's magnetic field disruption when the charges move. (charges can move without mass moving by the way).
This phenomenon is so disruptive that it will radiate the power out of the system in the form of heat or emwaves unless provisions are made to confine this gain in energy to the field in question.

wouldn't that be a frequency of 1MHz? are you suggesting we will see something special at 1MHz?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 13, 2009, 09:25:35 AM

Volts is the pressure differential say between a faucet tap and the open end of the hose. Then there is the current which is the flow of the water from the tap to the end of the hose. Now we can open and close the valve real fast and we all know that the hose will kick. Because this is when the voltage or pressure differential is at a maximum and the amps or flow will be the greatest and the resistance of the hose the least. Now if we just leave the valve open the hose saturates and the voltage is now distributing itself along the length of the hose and slowly causing the hose to inflate and frictional losses and the need for alot of pressure. But what if we can store the energy of the hose kicking and make it kick real fast.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 13, 2009, 09:35:58 AM

Quote from: sparks on January 13, 2009, 09:25:35 AM
Volts is the pressure differential say between a faucet tap and the open end of the hose. Then there is the current which is the flow of the water from the tap to the end of the hose. Now we can open and close the valve real fast and we all know that the hose will kick. Because this is when the voltage or pressure differential is at a maximum and the amps or flow will be the greatest and the resistance of the hose the least. Now if we just leave the valve open the hose saturates and the voltage is now distributing itself along the length of the hose and slowly causing the hose to inflate and frictional losses and the need for alot of pressure. But what if we can store the energy of the hose kicking and make it kick real fast.

sounds good in theory, how do you plan to put it into reality?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 13, 2009, 10:20:29 AM

@Wilby

The hose moving is liken to an emwave. So I need an observer of the emwave energy that is normally radiated and vibrates every single atom on it's way. I'm working with microwave excited plasma and feeding stuff like water vapor into the pinch zone. Having a hell of a time trying to figure out where the water goes. Lots of white hot light some blue light and a bunch of sound and a little bit of yellow flame. My wife doesn't like the sounds of things when I do it so given women's intuition it's probably not good for ya. Another thing is pulsing an iron wire coil with 30kv that is extended through a plastic block. The electrostatic polarization of the field around this deal is unbelievable. It refrigerates space. The ion wind could drive a small turbine. Got no idea where the heat energy of this space goes.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 13, 2009, 10:37:11 AM

Quote from: sparks on January 13, 2009, 10:20:29 AM
@Wilby

The hose moving is liken to an emwave. So I need an observer of the emwave energy that is normally radiated and vibrates every single atom on it's way. I'm working with microwave excited plasma and feeding stuff like water vapor into the pinch zone. Having a hell of a time trying to figure out where the water goes. Lots of white hot light some blue light and a bunch of sound and a little bit of yellow flame. My wife doesn't like the sounds of things when I do it so given women's intuition it's probably not good for ya. Another thing is pulsing an iron wire coil with 30kv that is extended through a plastic block. The electrostatic polarization of the field around this deal is unbelievable. It refrigerates space. The ion wind could drive a small turbine. Got no idea where the heat energy of this space goes.

so how do you plan to make it useful to mankind?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 13, 2009, 11:00:50 AM

The technology is already in use. NASA has the plasma engines up and going that just need any scource of emwaves to work. Like the gigahertz cosmic background radiation bandwith. Conversion of emwaveenergy into mechanical work is a big deal. A black rock gives off infrared emwaves all day and most of the night. You got an observer that converts emwave energy into an electrostatic field that ionizes stuff and you got a winner.

@Wilby

Hopefully I just did.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 13, 2009, 11:06:02 AM

Quote from: sparks on January 13, 2009, 11:00:50 AM
The technology is already in use. NASA has the plasma engines up and going that just need any scource of emwaves to work. Like the gigahertz cosmic background radiation bandwith. Conversion of emwaveenergy into mechanical work is a big deal. A black rock gives off infrared emwaves all day and most of the night. You got an observer that converts emwave energy into an electrostatic field that ionizes stuff and you got a winner.

@Wilby

Hopefully I just did.

what do plasma engines have to do with a joule thief? shouldn't this be in a separate thread?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 13, 2009, 12:50:57 PM

@Wilbe

Well it started off with how impulse or how fast you change the voltage can get you more bang for your buck then just changing the voltage just once. Then there is Bill lighting up a flurescent with one wire. Mercury vapor absorbing radio wave energy is pretty cool.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 13, 2009, 01:39:10 PM

Quote from: sparks on January 13, 2009, 09:25:35 AM
Volts is the pressure differential say between a faucet tap and the open end of the hose. Then there is the current which is the flow of the water from the tap to the end of the hose. Now we can open and close the valve real fast and we all know that the hose will kick. Because this is when the voltage or pressure differential is at a maximum and the amps or flow will be the greatest and the resistance of the hose the least. Now if we just leave the valve open the hose saturates and the voltage is now distributing itself along the length of the hose and slowly causing the hose to inflate and frictional losses and the need for alot of pressure. But what if we can store the energy of the hose kicking and make it kick real fast.

Thanks for the explanation! ;D
It seems a little clearer now.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 13, 2009, 06:22:37 PM

@sparks

I think you may be the best to try to make a jt magnetron,by making a jt divided in 16 parts with a Brass cathode at the center to pickup the rf field . The core on that one would need to be conductive.

@all

Also we can make a motor out of it , by carefully making 4 coil 90 degrees apart , and dropping a motor axel , with permanent magnet in it.

We have seen nothing yet.

Keep the good work!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 13, 2009, 07:00:26 PM

@all

If the led is not used in the jt circuit, There is no energy used in the coils , the only thing we have Is a street light at the end directing traffic.This energy needs to be stored not be going back to battery , could be directed to charge a battery.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on January 13, 2009, 07:42:26 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 13, 2009, 07:00:26 PM
@all

This energy needs to be stored not be going back to battery , could be directed to charge a battery.

As I watch and learn, I was thinking along the lines of amplification...as in the Stephen Marks toroidal unit.

With all the fertile minds displayed here I have a feeling this thing will be scaled up to produce usable energy.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Bob Smith on January 13, 2009, 10:59:25 PM

I've been following this thread from the beginning, but busy with work. Just a quick tip on sourcing - I managed to snag a few power supplies thrown out by the IT department where I work. Tore one open a couple of days ago and was able to salvage 6 toroids of different sizes and some nice fat diodes. The folks at Wal Mart photo centre gave me a few disposable camera carcasses as well.

I'll try and put this thing together this week. Tho' my real interest is in lighting incandescent bulbs with cold electricity, rather than fluorescent ones. My preference is a transistor (versus 555 timer) to get the right frequency to make this happen (I've tried both, and have gotten better results from the transistor). Has anyone given any thought to moving past LEDs and CFLs to incandescent bulbs? The nice thing about a 555 is that the frequency can be changed with a pot, whereas with a toroid, it's pretty much set. Unless of course a pot can be integrated into the circuit to make this possible.

I was able to get some frequency optimization using a pot in Groundloop's 12V battery charger circuit - see: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=4057.msg75477#msg75477
I'm not trying to derail the thread here. I'm just wondering if somehow something can be integrated into one of these jule thief circuits to change the frequency to bring some resonance (and cold elctricity/radiant energy) to a bulb.
Any thoughts greatly appreciated,
B

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on January 13, 2009, 11:02:14 PM

about the hose analogy.

i am still undecided about the kicks.

those kicks are all voltage with no amps.
but the ringing that come right after look like something we don't had to pay for.
but it is so tiny...

@Mk1
right now we are testing with DC bias on the core so...
is this the way you want to go ?

i don't have the tools to research that anymore.

trying to hit the core at the right time will be a hard thing to fine tune.
environmental frequency disturbances are also to be expected.

replication won't be possible with just a part list, a light source, and a fine tunning tutorial.
well, not unless the electronic circuit can auto fine tune itself.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 13, 2009, 11:11:37 PM

@ Bob:

Welcome! My main goal is efficiency and more efficiency when it comes to electronics. (I am just learning for about a few years now and have a lot more to learn) So, given this, I have never even considered the incandescent bulb as it wastes way too much energy on heat. Heck, the Easy Bake Ovens that girls played with in the 60's baked real cakes (just like it said in the ads on TV) and it used a single Edison based light bulb to do this. Cold electricity is a great thing, don't get me wrong. I have been following Dr. Stiffler's work from a long time ago.

I just like leds because these ARE the lights of the future. They have come a long way since the late 60's. I can take one of my megabright (256,000 MCD ) leds and fire it up to full brightness, and even with the 5 chips inside you can touch the case and.....no real heat there. So, that tells me all, or most all of our spent energy is going to produce light, which is the thing I am after.

Others on here may have different goals and thoughts, but those were mine. Now if cold electricity can light an incandescent bulb...and it stays cool to the touch....then I will be very interested except, they are outlawing those style bulbs here in the US anyway. (sigh) Soon, they will be collector's items. There are great folks here doing great things. Whatever you try, just post it so others will know what you are doing and what worked and did not work. Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 13, 2009, 11:38:30 PM

@Bob

I am thinking about it all the time, even if its not the light of the future but a 100 watt , could power great deal of thing around the house.
Your input are well noted , thanks for the support.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 14, 2009, 01:03:01 AM

Just a quick video of the modified Fuji circuit illuminating two 48" 40 watts tubes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BgPTVkZsxw

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 14, 2009, 01:19:24 AM

Hi everyone,
I will get to the direct questions in a bit, but first, I want to give the results of today's experiment.

I decided to apply the same test to the 'mk1' (that is the name of my jt that is fashioned as mark has been describing). This is the one pictured shining the 30 led array last night.

Once I got it to work, I first wanted to know if it is sapping any more or less energy from the battery than the 'standard' little toroid joule thief which I tested last week with 20 turns of a secondary.

So, I set it up just like the test from last week. I recharged the battery to full. Then, I lit the array and checked the battery hourly for 10 hours.

The starting voltage on the battery was 1.450 V
After the first hour the voltage had dropped by .08V
(Over the course of the first 3 hours the voltage had dropped a total of 0.132V )

but after that 3rd hour the hourly reduction went to less than 0.004V per hour and by the last couple of hours the voltage reduced no more than 0.001 per hour.

This is amazing.

There is no real way to talk about the light except in general terms, but I can say that the brightness went down from 'blazing' to 'bright' during the time the battery voltage was dropping first 80mV then 45mV per hour. It seemed to stabilize and is still putting out very bright level of light even though it is draining only 0.004mV from the battery in any of the last 6 hours.

The battery after 10 hours of lighting the array of 30 leds has a voltage of 1.291Vdc

To compare it properly the voltage used in the last 9 hours was 0.08V. (dis-counting the first hour)

Many things about this mk1 are different from the little toroid joule thief, and the results show this to be a more effective capturer of excess- or something - energy.

Specifically,
The toroid is at least 2x as big in diameter.

The jt part is in 2 separate parts.

There are 52 turns in the secondary with a 19 gauge wire not a 30 gauge wire.

The material of the toroid is a different make up.

I want to compare this more difficult way with the little one.

Since the little one is too little to fit 52 turns of 19 gauge mag wire through its center, I will quickly make a jt like the little one and use first 20 turns on this bigger toroid made of different material, then I will add to the turns to make it 52. I want to see.

The little jt is easier to describe to someone and if it ends up the same, this info will help.

@xee,
I am aware of the type of winding you describe. I tried it last year with a stubblefield coil and it gave different and less good results. Therefore, I will pass. esp. since mk1 has been working hard on this bizarre little toroid.

Thank you just the same.

@AbbaRue.
I don't have all these in series. Only 10 are in series and there are 3 in each series that are parallel totalling 30.

I did check the voltage across the array. I never go near 100 volts, but that may only be because there are only 20 turns in the secondary.

As I mentioned above, I will make another using this bigger toroid material, and put on 52 turns of 30 gauge wire Once I've done that, if it looks promising, I will change the secondary to 19 gauge wire and more turns to see if I can see 100v.

BTW, when you are checking the voltage, are you using the rectifier? or are you just looking at the ac voltage. (you probably have an oscilloscope :), don't you?)

Thank you all,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 14, 2009, 01:44:36 AM

@Bill and Timmy and all,

I did some traveling in Europe in the 80's and 90's. In every hotel or B & B a very power saving system was used. I have wanted to implement it in my own home for a long time.

Just outside each door was a switch to the hall lights. This switch was timed. You could get to the toilet down the hall and if you were not quick enough to get back before the lights went out, there was another timed switch to push by any door so you could get back to your room.

I know that ultimately you probably want more from your capacitors, but...

You could make a light such that you could push the button and get the light to turn on for 3 or 5 or maybe 10 minutes.

There are many applications I can think of like the hallway lights in Europe, to apply the capacitor switch to.

A light at the door of the garage or shed to give you just enough time to put out the trash ;D etc...

Also, Implementing something helps work out the bugs and make you see where improvements are needed.

For what it is worth,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 14, 2009, 07:38:36 AM

@ jeanna
The timed light switch you described just now has a spring which pushes outwards via some type of resistance, this could be a tiny hole to let air pass by or a 555 timer if it worked by power.

Try this as an experiment, get a elytrolytic say 1000uF at 16v DC, solder a resister or pot to pos and neg.
Charge the cap up by a plugpak with say 12v for about 10seconds.
Then see how long before the cap becomes exhausted

Next time, put a lower resister in circuit or adjust the pot

Do the experiment again.

The cap will discharge at adifferent rate

Bridging the top of the cap will discharge it immediatly or eg zero time.

@ Bill
sorry, about the reference I made about boxing your cat up and sending it over to me, I re read the post, it was MK1s kitty cat, ha ha.

@ Bob
Hello there Bob, welcome to the forum, it is nice to see you have been there in the background and not just looking, but are involved in the doings as well, your experience and results will be welcomed.
Bob has very kindly helped me out with another matter, thanks Bob.

@ Sparks
I also make a welcome to sparkes, we can see you have a broad range of electrical experience, thats good. Small Fluro tubes in microwaves makes a good test tool.

@all
I have come to the conclusion that we all are just about ready to delve into radient energy part of the JT, lots of us are now getting results, powering unusual things that couldn't be made to run just with a 1.5volt drycell battery.

My proposal is to use a JT to power a tiny solonoid, if this works, then move up to a larger one, if that works move to a bigger one.
Someone just might get lucky and get a big solonid working imediately.

Any takers?
Has anyone got any ideas?

We need square waves to do this
we need to make something to do it or
we need to buy something to do it.
Ie MOSFET or make and break points

We need to capture the pulse which happens when the magnetic field collapses
We need to be able to tune this so it can happen faster or slower to get the best amount of back emf.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 14, 2009, 07:52:58 AM

@ Bill
I went back and saw your reference to Bob about using a incondesant 100watt bulb, I have done this experiment, but I used a 12v christmas tree bulb.

It was very very dim, but what this tells me is, there is energy avaliable in the JT to drive it.

This could also be used as a test tool, to see if the torrid is capable of a bit of grunt, the brighter the bulb, the more energy is avaliable.

We might have to put 3 JT in parallel, on one torrid with one seperate output winding.

ps I have ordered a "sample" big torrid, several inches in diameter, has anyone else done the same?

ist, (im wispering) where are you, are you dare?

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 14, 2009, 01:48:46 PM

Quote from: electricme on January 14, 2009, 07:38:36 AM
@ jeanna
The timed light switch you described just now has a spring which pushes outwards via some type of resistance, this could be a tiny hole to let air pass by or a 555 timer if it worked by power.

jim

Hi jim,

Thanks, but I was actually thinking of staying strictly with the joule thief but adding a cap.

Certainly, the 555 on single pulse mode can be used as the timed switch.

I wanted to use just the jt along with the capacitor.

Bill and Timmy are both getting their stockrooms ( ;) ) ready with supercaps. I just thought it would show how well this jt could be pushed into active and practical service.

I did some resistance experiments last year (before you were here) to see about filling and unfilling a cap that would shine the led. I never got more than 40 seconds, I think. but it proved the concept to me. I think bill already gets a couple of minutes with his supercaps.

The switch on a spring is an excellent idea. This could be set to be on for long enough to drain the cap and refill it before it was back in rest position.

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 14, 2009, 02:17:18 PM

@all

Last nigh i made 2 new hp torroid, with real heavy gauge copper pickup coil,Today i will test to make them work from the same circuit so only one 2n3904 and 1k resistor, by looping both core at one.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 14, 2009, 04:17:13 PM

@ Jeanna:

So far, I have done 2 tests on the JT supercap system and the first time it lit for about 20 minutes and the 2nd time for a little more at about 24 minutes...after that, it dies down real fast. This was using about a 10 second charge from an AA battery. I have a working theory that since these take a long time to discharge, maybe the inverse is true so, when I get time, I will make some experiments doing this and keep more accurate times and try charging it up a bit longer each time.
Oh, on the second test, I was running the 3 super leds (as you have not been able to see in my video) to make a video and I just left it on my table to discharge. Well, it lit those three 10mm leds for about 23 minutes. I made a note of the time but I was not really timing it as I was doing something else. I really think that with a good long charge up and by using two of the caps together (parallel?) we can see some very good run times on the caps alone. We will see.

Oh, by the way, your computer repair people told me you will never see your computer again. (Just kidding) I hope you get it back soon AND it works.

@ MK1:

I can't wait to see what happens with that one. Good work.

@ Jim:

It's too late, I have already shipped my cat off to you. Just kidding! She helps me with all of my experiments and video making so I better keep her around here, ha ha. I hope you are doing better.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 14, 2009, 06:55:52 PM

@Bill,
I just talked to my computer repair people and they haven't started it yet!. now they promise it will go out the door tomorrow and be here on friday.

I love those results you are getting with your caps.

I think according to cap literature the charge and discharge are the same, as you say. but it seems not. Were you charging it for 23 minutes too? I guess you can take a lot of trash out with that as a timed light! ;D

@All,
I made a joule thief in the original toroid way to test against mk1's style.

I used 11 bifilar turns as usual.

Then using some red mag wire I made 52 turns.

So, this is as big as the one made in mk1's style, and has 52 turns secondary which is the same number as his, but the mag wire is 30 gauge. (like my first one on the 10 hour test.)

I checked this with the bridge and the volts reading one way was 26V the other way was 32V.

The lights are very bright. blazing category.

I had cut the mag wire longer than I needed, so I wound one turn at a time and measured the volts across the bridge. I was noticing that the volts one way was going up and the other way was going down.

I eventually got them even at 63 and 64 turns. and one is 37.5V and the other 34.8V

@AbbaRue.

I measured according to your suggestion from neg of the first to pos of each following light.

Strange. The voltage across the lights went up to about 11.8V on the 8th light, then stayed the same then decreased to 8.4 by the time I got to the end, which is the 10th.

===

Now, I am going to remove the red mag wire and use 52 turns of the 19 gauge. This way the test will be a real comparison of the 2 styles of making the thief.

This will be the same construction as the little one, and it will be on the bigger toroid matching the material, and use the exact same gauge and number of turns secondary as the mk1.

I'll let you know...

jeanna

EDIT: I re-counted the red and made changes. They are now correct.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 14, 2009, 06:57:15 PM

Quote from: Bob Smith on January 13, 2009, 10:59:25 PM
I've been following this thread from the beginning, but busy with work. Just a quick tip on sourcing - I managed to snag a few power supplies thrown out by the IT department where I work. Tore one open a couple of days ago and was able to salvage 6 toroids of different sizes and some nice fat diodes. The folks at Wal Mart photo centre gave me a few disposable camera carcasses as well.

I'll try and put this thing together this week. Tho' my real interest is in lighting incandescent bulbs with cold electricity, rather than fluorescent ones. My preference is a transistor (versus 555 timer) to get the right frequency to make this happen (I've tried both, and have gotten better results from the transistor). Has anyone given any thought to moving past LEDs and CFLs to incandescent bulbs? The nice thing about a 555 is that the frequency can be changed with a pot, whereas with a toroid, it's pretty much set. Unless of course a pot can be integrated into the circuit to make this possible.

I was able to get some frequency optimization using a pot in Groundloop's 12V battery charger circuit - see: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=4057.msg75477#msg75477
I'm not trying to derail the thread here. I'm just wondering if somehow something can be integrated into one of these jule thief circuits to change the frequency to bring some resonance (and cold elctricity/radiant energy) to a bulb.
Any thoughts greatly appreciated,
B

Incandescent bulbs have to heat the filament to emit infrared wave energy. The argon gas in the bulbs absorbs a little of the ir and retransmits it at visible light spectrums. Heating resistive materials to get emwave energy is not a very efficient process. You need the infrared waves build an infrared transmitter. The argon will light up cold. Bill can get more light conversion if he grabs on to the tube.
The mercury vapor inside the tube likes infrared frequencies also. There is a shitload of infrared wave energy around even when it's cold out. Just a matter of tuning in to different stations as the frequency drifts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 14, 2009, 07:23:33 PM

@ Sparks:

I really appreciate the fact that you are posting and reading here. Your posts really make me think, and, to be honest, I have to read some of them several times, and then do a little research on the net to almost understand what you are saying. This is in NO way your fault, it is mine. Many of the other folks that are on here it is the same. They MAKE me THINK! I thank you and I thank all of them for this.

@ All:

I love learning and reading and doing and trying stuff but like a lot of folks, I can be intellectually lazy at times. Well, being intellectually lazy does not cut it here on this topic I can tell you. If my mind is sidetracked by other stuff for a bit, just a very short little bit, I come back here and there are like 3 pages of great posts and experiments and results for me to catch up on. I may never catch up actually, but, I will try.

If I say this too often then please someone tell me to shut up and I will but, this is the best group of folks I have ever been associated with on any research project, or any project for that matter. You all make me try harder just to keep up as you all know I am not a real electronics person. Once again, my thanks to you all!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 14, 2009, 07:28:48 PM

@jeanna

Remember i get 60 volt per 26 turns coil. So 120 volts for 52 turns.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 14, 2009, 07:46:41 PM

Mark:

Do you think it would be better to have one large toroid or several small ones linked together using the same transistor like what you are doing? I didn't know a transistor could share toroids........of course, before this topic, I didn't know a lot of things. Jim is trying to get hold of a large one and if he has any success with it, I may too. I am glad you are here also. Thanks for all of your work and contributions.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 14, 2009, 07:48:43 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 14, 2009, 07:28:48 PM
@jeanna

Remember i get 60 volt per 26 turns coil. So 120 volts for 52 turns.

Yes, but I did not get anything like that. I got 28V from 52 turns. That is a lot less than 120V.
(and when I had the turns going wrong there was around 2vdc. It was only enough to barely turn on 2 series of lights.)

So, I expect the reason may be some technique, some materials, some size of toroid...

That is the reason for my test.

Thank you for putting those numbers right here. It helps the continuity of the test.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 14, 2009, 08:01:23 PM

@jeanna

I got the feeling that if increase the number of turns from the 7 turn coil you may get more, maybe try 10.

I made one with a smaller gauge 26 and did not get much out of it.

@pirate

I bigger one may need more turn , but will permit bigger wire and more turns , and that is real good.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 14, 2009, 08:16:27 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 14, 2009, 08:01:23 PM
@jeanna

I got the feeling that if increase the number of turns from the 7 turn coil you may get more, maybe try 10.

I made one with a smaller gauge 26 and did not get much out of it.

@pirate

I bigger one may need more turn , but will permit bigger wire and more turns , and that is real good.

Why is that? did you do that?
In this trial I have 11 bifilar so 22 altogether.

I am wondering about the magnets. were they part of it when you got 120 volts?

Anyway in a couple of hours or less I will have this done and can measure it.

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 14, 2009, 08:40:37 PM

@jeanna

The magnets are not needed for getting the 120 volt result.But there is a chance your ferrite is different and may need more turns on the jt part of the circuit. And on the pickup coil , a have notice a better juice flow greater power from bigger wire , the 26 turn coil on my Mk1 Unit are like 2X13 serial coil per side .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 14, 2009, 09:13:54 PM

@ all
I'm stumped here on the wire size used by everyone, to wind these coils, as surprising as that may seem to those who know me from my posts.
So I'm going to hold my hand up and holler for help HELP :-[ ;D

I know that wire sizes differ from country to country and this is confusing for me.

Can anyone reading this "help" kindly point me to a website that has a photo of all the wires along with their sizes on a chart that I can download, I need to go back to skool again.

I need to see the actual wire size itself with it's size next to it.

I think others reading this thread would like to get this innfo also.

@bill
Ohhhh you are in fine form today, ie kitty travelling and lost PCs, ha ha :D

I don't think you are overdoing the accolades, (us all being the best group) keep it up kind sir, not enough of this is about in the world.

@jonnydavro
Thanks for the file you sent me, wonderful indeed, it looks even better now.

q1 If I was to make a solonoid coil like yours, how many turns would I need to wind on a bobbin
q2 I only have very thin wire, so my coil would be a lot smaller than the one in your video.

@ MK1, Xee2, jesus, Bob, sparkes, jonnydavro
What do you guru's think of this idea I have?

Should I begin by stripping down a small transformer, and use the transformer laminations to wind on some coils? or should I use a torrid instead? I'm trying to clear the cobwebs in my mind about this.

Attatch a reed switch at one end of the laminations to switch off the energy to the coil.
If I put several reed switches in series, this will stop most of the pit burning inside the reed switches to make them last longer.

Next feed the BEMF through a bridge diode, and feed this into another transformer to reduce the HV pulses back to Lo voltags pulses, then feed this back to my 1.5volt battery?

I know there will be others reading this and will say to use another method, but I think we could go in that direction "after" we have a working setup.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 14, 2009, 09:35:40 PM

@All

I finished winding 52 turns of 19 gauge (EDIT 22 gauge) mag wire over the larger toroid with 11 bifilar jt style. I get exactly the same voltage as with the very skinny 30 gauge.

So, That is not the thing making the big difference here. well that is volts. I cannot test for amps.

@jim. I used to have a conversion chart. One exists. I remember it is from one of the radio guys. Search the web for wire conversion. I'm sure you will find it.

(19 gauge is the fattest mag wire Radio Shak sells and 30 gauge is the skinniest.)

Next, I think I will cut this mag wire in 2 and configure it like the 2 secondaries from the mk1 and see if that makes a difference.

Hopefully I will be finished in under 2 hours.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 14, 2009, 09:38:56 PM

@elctricme

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge

This is what i use as a reference.

@Jeanna

the pickup coil will have the same voltage but more current goes true a big wire so more work can be done (more amps)
I would try making more turns on the 7 turns one.

If you are taking about the 3 pack magnet wire from radio shack , it 22,26,30 my 19 is bigger than anything radio shack got.
So far the green one the 26 i think is useless, 22 the biggest one is the best.
Smaller gauge are great to get real high voltages but real low amps.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 14, 2009, 09:58:04 PM

My mistake. The package is long gone and the spools are unmarked. I guess I am using 22 then.

I don't know another source that sells reasonable amounts to the public. Does anyone know one in the US?

@MK1, I already have more turns than 7 and 7. I have 11 and 11. but it is this that I am testing. I think the test will be finished tonight... I hope.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 14, 2009, 10:05:42 PM

@jeanna

I just want to make sure i got you right, on the toroid of my design you changed the 2x 7 turns to 2x11,if your toroid is different it could help achieve the 60 volts , this is not for the bifilar one.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Bob Smith on January 14, 2009, 10:20:59 PM

@ Sparks, thanks for the infrared info. Food for thought...

I'm going to throw another idea out fwiw, as I'm swamped with work and don't have time to try it for a few days: Somewhere back around page 100, mention was made of using soft iron wire windings. Way back when, I attemped the TPU using insulated soft iron wire I picked up from Home Depot (a little thicker than floral wire, soft light green rubber insulation, sold by 6" coil). No luck. However, given soft iron's rapid magnetizing and de-magnetizing properties, why couldn't a coil of iron wire be substituted for the JT toroid? Making the toroid with insulated iron wire, then the primary and secondary windings with the same wire might yield some interesting results. Maybe the JT configuration can be hybridized with some of the TPU ideas. I have to think about the required "kick" to get it going. Charging a cap has already been mentioned.

A NOTE OF CAUTION: From everything I've read, the TPU packs one massive amount of potentially lethal juice. If you get a runaway current, you can also in theory vaporize your wires. I'm not advising anyone without the proper knowledge to try this - only sharing the idea for those comptetent in handling this kind of high voltage.

Hasta manana amiguitos.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 14, 2009, 10:33:44 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 14, 2009, 10:05:42 PM
@jeanna

I just want to make sure i got you right, on the toroid of my design you changed the 2x 7 turns to 2x11,if your toroid is different it could help achieve the 60 volts , this is not for the bifilar one.

No, mark. I am testing the one I made as truely like yours as I could against the standard little joule thief as described by evilmadscientist.com. I had already made a couple of those, but in order to actually compare the designs, I needed to make a bigger one because the hole of those I had already made was too small to accommodate the fatter mag wire.

I have 2 toroids from a package of 2, so they are matched. I am just changing one thing at a time to see what it is about these 2 designs that makes them different.

Yours is decidedly more difficult and confusing to make. I was hoping to find a simpler way, because I will want to hope people can make their own. It is just a test.

When I am finished, I will either have something just as good but easier or another one just the same. Either way, I'll be finished soon - tonight, or tomorrow.

Thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on January 14, 2009, 10:34:02 PM

@electricme and all

i might be wrong, but i think the joule thief is already using part of the back emf for oscillation.

back emf alone does not have more energy in it then the emf energy used.
yes, you will be able to charge a second battery with it, minus the circuit lost..
tapping on the back emf while charging the battery will reduce the energy sent to it.

like i sayed, the joule thief is a voltage amplifier, by a factor of 2X and 2.2X in my 2 firsts jt, and a core is not really needed for it work.
just 2 separated inductors without cores work too.

but a core sure open other horizons to us.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 14, 2009, 11:04:26 PM

@TheNOP

I even think that it is that emf that induce the power to the toroid and transfers it to the other coils,that is y it works in the first place, A transformer only works on ac , it is the only way it works, transformer don't work from dc, that is the reason in has a transistor, the coils are center bias making it good ac oscillator , the regular joule thief works the led in ac .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 14, 2009, 11:30:48 PM

@ All:

Another youtube video of me lighting 300 leds from the modified Fuji AA circuit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atFTenzGHSA

Thanks all.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 14, 2009, 11:59:58 PM

OK group,

Well, this last version seems to be along the same amounts as all the others.

This one has only one difference from the mk1 design.

It has the bifilar coil going around the toroid. 11 bif = 22 wires.
then the secondary pair as mk1 describes, 13 up 13 down on each side of the center of the jt. for a total of 52 turns.

The toroid material is the same material as the mk1 I made and showed lighting 30 leds 2 nights ago. (I bought this to take apart. It was a filter and may be laminate)

1- the rectified voltage is 29V one way 25V the other way.

2- the array reads about the same:
from the 1st neg to the last pos it reads 7.2VAC (on this place it is 0.00VDC)
from the 1st neg to the last neg 4.8 VDC
from the 1st pos to the last pos 4.8 VDC

So far the best rectified voltage is from the 64 turns which is how many turns were needed to make them even both ways. They total 72.3 volts if you add them together - I don't know why you would do that, but perhaps, that IS the total AC voltage. The style on that winner was entirely evilmadscientist style. -- but this may not be a fair comparison because the number of turns is higher.??

------

Now,
I think the material is likely to be what is making the difference.

Not that 24 volts is a bad thing. Most RV's and solar houses run off 24volts.

So, now, I want to tackle the amps. Or do I?

Mark, what do you think is happening ampwise? Is this emf slop we are picking up from the floor drawing amps from the battery? or from the slop on the floor.?

I will say that the lights were brighter for twice as long with the mk1 set-up. And it still used a bit less than the evilmadscie... style.

I need to re-test the original little jt toroid with the array, because When I was first testing that, I had a LED in the jt which meant that it was coming off the battery, not the emf as the array is.

I will do that overnight. I don't need to take hourly measurements. I can just look after 10 hours.

-----

I am intrigued with the idea of a series arrangement of joule thiefs.

Mark, please tell me how you hook them up.

My thought on this is as follows. (it ought to make it easier to answer, I hope.)

I put a jumper from the Collector of the transistor to a clear spot on the breadboard. I do the same with the end of the resistor, I connect a new jt to these spots, and stick the twisted end into a spot on the red band along with the other twisted end from the other jt.

If that is what you are calling series connected jt's then I am good to go.

thank you especially mark,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 15, 2009, 12:20:05 AM

@jeanne

I think that you could get better then that , from my design the 2 main 7 turns may make up for the difference in core , also when you go up 13 turns that is the first coil, and down 13 turns second coil they are already in series because they change direction.In my experiments there is nothing connected to the pickup coils. The number of turns give you the voltage , the bigger wire lets more amps flow.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Light on January 15, 2009, 12:21:02 AM

Absolutely agree, TheNOP.
It is a voltage transformer, and the more voltage we got, the less amperage have.
And yes, bemfâ€™s part of oscilation here and thisâ€™s only way to get amps.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 15, 2009, 12:42:44 AM

@ All:

Another video showing me lighting 400 LEDs from the modified Fuji AA Joule thief circuit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RVvdCovYDY

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 15, 2009, 12:46:30 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 15, 2009, 12:20:05 AM

I think that you could get better then that , from my design the 2 main 7 turns may make up for the difference in core ,

But, that is how I made yesterday's coil. It is the one called the mk1. It has the 2, 7 turn primaries. One is on the top and one is on the bottom.

Quotealso when you go up 13 turns that is the first coil, and down 13 turns second coil they are already in series because they change direction.In my experiments there is nothing connected to the pickup coils. The number of turns give you the voltage , the bigger wire lets more amps flow.

Primary made up of:
7 turn at top and at bottom (3 over 4 back) connected in joule thief way.

4 secondary coils:
13 up on left side = 1 coil
13 down on left side = second coil
13 up on right side = 3rd coil
13 down on right side = 4th coil.

If I make them 20 up and 20 down (for a total of 80 turns instead of 52), the final result will be more volts.

Am I getting close yet?

:)

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 15, 2009, 12:53:35 AM

I have a name for my New Design Joule Thief...I am going to call it The" Joule Pirate". Available in videos everywhere....well...at least on youtube.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 15, 2009, 01:17:28 AM

Quote from: jeanna on January 15, 2009, 12:46:30 AM

Primary made up of:
7 turn at top and at bottom (3 over 4 back) connected in joule thief way.

Ok that is where i think you could try to ad some turns to get a better response from the toroid and more voltage.

@pirate

Good video for getting the word around, Thanks

@light

Nice work , welcome.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 15, 2009, 01:35:22 AM

@mk1,

OK I will do that tomorrow. There is maybe enough wire on it to make one or 2 more, so it would end up with 8 or 9 turns. It will show what kind of change to expect, even if it is not enough change.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 15, 2009, 01:39:21 AM

Thanks Mark!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: AbbaRue on January 15, 2009, 03:39:54 AM

@jeanna
Thanks for doing the test I mentioned. With only 10 in series you are getting the right results.
My point was made. The more LED's you connect in series the higher the voltage across the array.
For some reason the measurements must be made at the second and second last LED.
Also if someone replaces the LED's with those cheap switching diodes from Radioshack you get similar results.
Somehow the diodes step up the voltage when connected in series.
I believe it may be the other way around, each diode acts as a voltage regulator,
so the more you have in series the higher the voltage of the regulator.
So if each LED regulates at 1.2 Volts then connecting 100 LED's will regulate 120 Volts.
This is why those LED lights Pirate is using have 100 LED's in them.
But once the breakdown voltage of the diode is reached diodes will start to burn out.
This information may come in handy down the road as we dig deeper into this phenomenon.

NOW to a different point; if the Joule Thief follows standard transformer principles:
If you have twice as many windings on the secondary as you have on the primary then you will double the voltage.
So the less windings you put on the primary the higher the voltage output will be across the secondary.
The only reason for having more windings on the primary is to handle higher input voltage.
Because the less windings on the primary the more current it will drain from the battery and the more strain on the transistor.
Now if you have to many windings on the primary you loose energy in the form of heat in the coils due to higher resistance in the coil.
Less windings more heat in transistor, less heat in windings.
More windings less heat in transistor, more heat in windings.
So the art is to find the happy medium.

So in this case Jeanna if you want more voltage output you must either;
decrease the windings of the primary or increase the windings of the secondary.
If you have 7 windings on the primary and 56 windings on the secondary
you should get 8 times as much voltage out as what you put in.
But the JT uses feedback oscillation of the output back into the input.
So 1 volt is boosted to 8 volts and then that is fed back so 8 volts is boosted to 64 volts, etc.
Something like that anyway, so you can get hundreds of volts out of it.

I think I've got it right anyway.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 15, 2009, 03:53:29 AM

@ Abbarue:

Thank you for your post. I just learned a lot more. This is great thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: AbbaRue on January 15, 2009, 04:43:22 AM

@Pirate88179
I like the videos.
That last one with the 400 LEDs, were they connected in series as well just like the 300 were?

Getting all this energy out of an AA battery, WOW!
Just think what a D cell will give you.
Now if we only had one of John Hutcheson's crystal batteries.
Maybe some one should email him about this forum.

The only thing that stops a carbon battery from working is the zinc plate gets covered in oxide so current won't flow anymore.
If you take the zinc plate and sand off all the oxide the battery will work again.
So a large open carbon battery with a large zinc plate easy to access could run this circuit for almost a life time.
This is the principle behind one type of earth battery, the rain and things in the soil keep the zinc plate cleaned.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 15, 2009, 07:26:29 AM

@pirate

Nice videos! Is that the same battery since the beggining without recharge?

Quote from: electricme on January 14, 2009, 09:13:54 PM
.
.
@ MK1, Xee2, jesus, Bob, sparkes, jonnydavro
What do you guru's think of this idea I have?

Should I begin by stripping down a small transformer, and use the transformer laminations to wind on some coils? or should I use a torrid instead? I'm trying to clear the cobwebs in my mind about this.

Attatch a reed switch at one end of the laminations to switch off the energy to the coil.
If I put several reed switches in series, this will stop most of the pit burning inside the reed switches to make them last longer.

Next feed the BEMF through a bridge diode, and feed this into another transformer to reduce the HV pulses back to Lo voltags pulses, then feed this back to my 1.5volt battery?

I know there will be others reading this and will say to use another method, but I think we could go in that direction "after" we have a working setup.

jim

I am not a guru yet. I have not been able to get a decent feedback to the source.
But I know that you are a very good teacher and as so, you are also a good student. I know you can device something to get what you want.
If it is about transformers and toroids, the most indicated ones to help you are the others from the list you made.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 15, 2009, 08:38:54 AM

@Mk1
Thanks for the wire gauge http

@ TheNOP
Thanks for the info as well you posted

@ all
Got to be at a grade 6 (my old school class mates) reception lunch, so I will be back in about 4 days from now.

There is sooooo much to catch up on, couldn't you lot go a bit slower? ha ha ;D
hoo roo

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 15, 2009, 08:42:52 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 14, 2009, 09:38:56 PM
@elctricme

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge

This is what i use as a reference.

@Jeanna

the pickup coil will have the same voltage but more current goes true a big wire so more work can be done (more amps)
I would try making more turns on the 7 turns one.

If you are taking about the 3 pack magnet wire from radio shack , it 22,26,30 my 19 is bigger than anything radio shack got.
So far the green one the 26 i think is useless, 22 the biggest one is the best.
Smaller gauge are great to get real high voltages but real low amps.

18 gauge is the biggest Radio Shack sells around here.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 15, 2009, 10:09:32 AM

These might be a good substitute for leds but a bit pricey. It pertains to my post about lighting an incandescent with high frequency instead of heating filaments to get high frequency. Plasma is like a huge atom. The ionized neuclei stay at point a cause they're heavy. The electrons takeoff and form an electrical current around a bunch of ionized neuclei. It's like an element with an open end atomic weight and scale. Some of the mass of the macroatom is converted to energy in the form of heat and light. So basicallly in this bulb they are creating mass with emwaves and then converting some of that mass back into emwaves at a higher frequency than the input.
Sorry for the thread cloud but I thought you might find this new tech interesting.

http://www.inhabitat.com/2008/04/07/luxim-plasma-light-bulb/

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 15, 2009, 12:53:57 PM

@ Abbarue:

Yes, these were connected in series as someone on here suggested I try about 15 pages back. (sorry I can't recall who, but they were correct) The reason I put that off was my lights were still on my tree and connected to my color organ. I took them off the tree yesterday and this made it easy to plug into each other. I do believe the light output was higher with the circuit in series. Plus, this was a lot faster than hooking up all of my test leads for a parallel circuit. Thanks for your compliment.

@ Jesus:

Thank you. Yes, this is still the original AA battery that came in the camera. It is not rechargeable. I have been using it for every experiment and to show all of my friends that have stopped by for the past month and a half. It is still alive and kicking. I guess I should measure the battery to see what is left on it. I will do that when I get a chance.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 15, 2009, 12:56:54 PM

This is better than christmas morning.

@AbbaRue, thank you for such an excellent explanation. wow.

@Sparks, I was wanting to ask about creating a heat lamp from some IR leds whose rays were caught in a small greenhouse-like enclosure then whose heat was pushed out into a room for space heating. I know you are more inclined to theory, so, I want to ask if there is a theoretical stumbling block here that would need to be stepped over?

Along the same lines and from my less knowledgeable understanding than these 2 above posters, I awoke this morning wanting to post some thoughts that have been rumbling in my head ever since I was successful with the first fuji circuit.

Our man N Tesla never intended for us to be plugged in. He said he had it in mind to send the power over the waves or ethers or I don't know his exact words. Perhaps they would be helpful here.

His ideas centered around high frequency and, I have no doubt that he could have made (maybe did make) appliances that utilized the high frequency that he was preparing to send out from W...cliff. We do know he made fixtures that were receivers which put out light.

I would like to suggest to those here who are interested, to start playing with motors, or non-motors that can perform the same functions as things we now have, but be driven by high frequency, not amps.

Our world could use a whole assortment of appliances that work at these high frequencies. I am talking about skill saws and blenders etc.

So, for those machinists and inventors so inclined... how about this idea?

@all
and along these lines, this is so easy to make a small energy source provide enough hi frequency to do a lot. functionally a lot.

I just looked at my mk1/jt hybrid which I made yesterday and tested last night. That lit the array at the blazing level for 10 hours and the total drain on the battery was only 0.161V. So, in other words. I still have a well charged battery after 10 hours of producing blazing light.

I also want to ask those who are able to figure the calculations of these things to give me some numbers.

The battery is AAA and "holds" 750mA
The resistor is set at 1K ohm on the base of the 3904 transistor.
The transistor is only on for a part of the time, based on the resistance. and perhaps it also changes over time as the battery discharges some.

My little tests are OK for now, because I am doing them all the same etc.

Is there someone who would like to tackle this question of how much I am using in these tests?

Xee2 and AbbaRue came to mind, perhaps there are others.

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 15, 2009, 03:54:46 PM

@ jeanna

The ma-hr is the amount of energy the battery holds. A 750 ma-hr battery will supply 750 ma for one hour or 75 ma per hour for 10 hours. If you measure the current coming from the battery at start and end of each hour (by putting an ammeter is series with the battery) then take average (add together and divide by 2) you will get the ma-hr used during that hour (approximately). Do this for each hour the battery is used and add the results together to get the total ma-hours used. For example: you might use 30 ma the first hour, 25 ma the second hour, and 20 ma for the third hour, then you will have used 30+25+20=75 ma-hours from the battery. If the battery holds 750 ma-hrs, then you will have used 75/750 or 1/10th of the battery charge (10%).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 15, 2009, 04:46:52 PM

Thank you xee2,

I don't have an ammeter. My dmm resoution is too low by a lot.

I don't know if my battery really holds 750mAH or if when it is exhausted it really holds zero.

All I can reliably measure is volts and ohms. I was guessing on the basis of what you are describing. And, I was hoping one could figure it out without a direct measurement.

Thank you,

jeanna

EDIT: I think I asked my question poorly.

I am wanting to know how many amps I am using because I don't have an ammeter. I thought it could be done by calculation. sorry for foggy question.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 15, 2009, 05:03:45 PM

Quote from: jeanna on January 15, 2009, 12:56:54 PM
This is better than christmas morning.

@AbbaRue, thank you for such an excellent explanation. wow.

@Sparks, I was wanting to ask about creating a heat lamp from some IR leds whose rays were caught in a small greenhouse-like enclosure then whose heat was pushed out into a room for space heating. I know you are more inclined to theory, so, I want to ask if there is a theoretical stumbling block here that would need to be stepped over?

Along the same lines and from my less knowledgeable understanding than these 2 above posters, I awoke this morning wanting to post some thoughts that have been rumbling in my head ever since I was successful with the first fuji circuit.

Our man N Tesla never intended for us to be plugged in. He said he had it in mind to send the power over the waves or ethers or I don't know his exact words. Perhaps they would be helpful here.

His ideas centered around high frequency and, I have no doubt that he could have made (maybe did make) appliances that utilized the high frequency that he was preparing to send out from W...cliff. We do know he made fixtures that were receivers which put out light.

I would like to suggest to those here who are interested, to start playing with motors, or non-motors that can perform the same functions as things we now have, but be driven by high frequency, not amps.

Our world could use a whole assortment of appliances that work at these high frequencies. I am talking about skill saws and blenders etc.

So, for those machinists and inventors so inclined... how about this idea?

jeanna

Does anyone know of the relevant patents of Nikola Tesla that deal with wireless electricity?

Last night I took another KODAK that expired like 5 years ago and removed the board. All I did to this one was remove the big cap and battery and soldered one wire to a positive and one to a negative spot that Wilby showed me a while back. I was careful to not burn the board and just melted the solder enough to secure the wire. I didnâ€™t remove anything this time. And, what do you know? It works! Mwahahahahaha!

I know itâ€™s putting out some juice because while I had a couple of LEDâ€™s lit, my finger slipped and mustâ€™ve touched something wrong because I had a shocking experience :-D
I lit one LED and it was very bright.
I lit two LEDâ€™s in series and both were just as bright as with the one.
I put a third in series and all three were just as bright as with the one.

It was late so I set it aside for the night. But, when I get home(in just over an hour! YAY!) I am going to hook it to the multimeter and see what itâ€™s putting out! Itâ€™s gotta be good because that shock got my attention real quick. It was those real good shocks like when you wear a real static filled sweater or something and touch a doorknob.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 15, 2009, 05:06:03 PM

@AbbaRue

Thank for the transformer explanation, those results are however subject to other variables like the speed of the switching transistor
and the saturating freq of the core . regular transformer works on 60 cycle 120 in specific design , i wish it would be as as counting numbers , i my self can't replicate the 120v 60 per side , the core is bigger i get 27v per side , i dropped the turns from the primary and got lower results i lost 5 volts, i tried 500 ohm resistor and got 30 volts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 15, 2009, 05:15:37 PM

@ Timmy:

Good job on the Kodak circuit. Be real careful when testing with your multimeter and set it way higher than anything you think you might be getting or you will fry something in the meter or blow a fuse. The think the Fuji puts out close to 400 volts and I don't know about the Kodak but, since you got bit, you know it is something in the high voltage area. I have been real hesitant to hook up any of my meters to the Fuji circuit's ac output. I don't know if the meters will read that accurately anyway, maybe someone else on here will know.

@ Jeanna:

Excellent work on the longevity tests! 30 leds illuminated for over 10 hours is a lot of light for what little energy you used up. This is very good information. Since I am almost caught up on my video production, I have been wondering around my place looking for stuff I can try to run from the Fuji or blow up, ha ha. You mentioned motors. The only decent size motor I have is in a blender and I am afraid that the output from the Fuji might burn up something in there and not run. I do have a number of 12 volt computer fans lying about, I can always wire them together and hit it for a second or two. I have some very small motors that I will try to run when my bag of 1" toroids gets here from electronics goldmine. (maybe tonight, I hope!!) This shipment also has my solar cells that I can't wait to experiment (play) with.

I just got in several new cases so I am going to be busy again for a while but I will do what I can when I can. Thanks for all of your efforts Jeanna.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 15, 2009, 05:18:26 PM

@ jeanna

Battery voltage is not a good indicator of the amount of charge left in the battery.

An ammeter is a voltmeter and a resistor. Ohms law gives current in amps = voltage across resistor divided by resistance in ohms. If you put a 1 ohm resistor in series with the battery and measure the voltage across the resistor, then the current going through the resistor in milliamps will be equal to the voltage across the resistor in millvolts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 15, 2009, 05:21:53 PM

Hello Gang . I thought i would show you an earth battery powering 2 Joule thieves . one on a bread board and one taped up that i gave to my little girl .The Earth battery consists of a 2 foot ling piece of 3/4 inch galvanized pipe and a 1/8 inch copper gas tube about a foot long . Both are about 10 inches apart with self taping screws holding telephone wire on them . It puts out 1.08 volts and i did not see hardly any current to speak of maybe 1 ma .. anyways its enough to light 2 jts at he same time .not very bright but about 20% and for Free light that is enough to see where your going in the computer room at night .they are wound 25 turns of2 strands of solid telephone wire and Germanium transistors ..the leds are 10,000 mcd from goldmine electronics .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on January 15, 2009, 05:57:26 PM

Quote from: jeanna on January 15, 2009, 04:46:52 PM
I am wanting to know how many amps I am using because I don't have an ammeter. I thought it could be done by calculation. sorry for foggy question.

I = V / R

get the resistance of one diode then measure the voltage passing trug it, each side of it.
or
add a resistance in series with your diode(s) then measure the voltage passing trug it.

do the volts measurement with your bridge rectifier, then add 1.414 to the value you get.

the current passing in the resistance is the same for all the diodes.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 15, 2009, 06:15:35 PM

@ Gadgetmall:

Good work!! How deep into the earth are your electrodes? You will get more amps (mA's) with the plus one being deeper than the minus one at the same dip angle for your location. I am hoping to hook mine up outside but it is 12 degrees F out there now going down to -2 later.....cold!!!!!!!!! Good post.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 15, 2009, 06:47:02 PM

Quote from: xee2 on January 15, 2009, 05:18:26 PM
@ jeanna

Battery voltage is not a good indicator of the amount of charge left in the battery.

An ammeter is a voltmeter and a resistor. Ohms law gives current in amps = voltage across resistor divided by resistance in ohms. If you put a 1 ohm resistor in series with the battery and measure the voltage across the resistor, then the current going through the resistor in milliamps will be equal to the voltage across the resistor in millvolts.

boy do I feel dumb!!! ha I just did exactly that with my 12 volt battery making HHO.

Cool. OK so,

I don't have a 1 ohm but I do have a 10 ohm, so

E=IR
I=E/R
R=9.5 actual
E=0.220
I= 0.023A

So, it appears that my hybrid jt draws 0.023A

YEAY! Thank you xee2.

@the NOP I cannot get any reading across the LED. ziltch, nada. Thank you also.

and thanks everyone for not laughing ;D , (but go ahead, because I am!)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on January 15, 2009, 06:58:55 PM

Quote from: jeanna on January 15, 2009, 06:47:02 PM
@the NOP I cannot get any reading across the LED. ziltch, nada. Thank you also.

voltage reading or ohm reading ?
for ohms, reversing the polarity might help. ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 15, 2009, 07:23:31 PM

Quote from: jeanna on January 15, 2009, 12:56:54 PM
This is better than christmas morning.

@AbbaRue, thank you for such an excellent explanation. wow.

@Sparks, I was wanting to ask about creating a heat lamp from some IR leds whose rays were caught in a small greenhouse-like enclosure then whose heat was pushed out into a room for space heating. I know you are more inclined to theory, so, I want to ask if there is a theoretical stumbling block here that would need to be stepped over?

Along the same lines and from my less knowledgeable understanding than these 2 above posters, I awoke this morning wanting to post some thoughts that have been rumbling in my head ever since I was successful with the first fuji circuit.

Our man N Tesla never intended for us to be plugged in. He said he had it in mind to send the power over the waves or ethers or I don't know his exact words. Perhaps they would be helpful here.

His ideas centered around high frequency and, I have no doubt that he could have made (maybe did make) appliances that utilized the high frequency that he was preparing to send out from W...cliff. We do know he made fixtures that were receivers which put out light.

I would like to suggest to those here who are interested, to start playing with motors, or non-motors that can perform the same functions as things we now have, but be driven by high frequency, not amps.

Our world could use a whole assortment of appliances that work at these high frequencies. I am talking about skill saws and blenders etc.

So, for those machinists and inventors so inclined... how about this idea?

@all
and along these lines, this is so easy to make a small energy source provide enough hi frequency to do a lot. functionally a lot.

I just looked at my mk1/jt hybrid which I made yesterday and tested last night. That lit the array at the blazing level for 10 hours and the total drain on the battery was only 0.161V. So, in other words. I still have a well charged battery after 10 hours of producing blazing light.

I also want to ask those who are able to figure the calculations of these things to give me some numbers.

The battery is AAA and "holds" 750mA
The resistor is set at 1K ohm on the base of the 3904 transistor.
The transistor is only on for a part of the time, based on the resistance. and perhaps it also changes over time as the battery discharges some.

My little tests are OK for now, because I am doing them all the same etc.

Is there someone who would like to tackle this question of how much I am using in these tests?

Xee2 and AbbaRue came to mind, perhaps there are others.

Thank you,

jeanna

Interesting concept. Infrared diode arrays powered by a voltage multiplier circuit. They have the quartz tube heaters but again this is a very inefficient way to generate ir. Water readily absorbs infrared converting it to moleuclar vibration while air is pretty opaque to this freq unless there is a bunch of co2 to absorb and reflect it. Perhaps a water heater first or a portable heater like the quartz tube heaters. It would be interesting though to get some steam vaporized in a low pressure tube and see if ir could ionize it and create a water plazma bulb.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 15, 2009, 07:35:34 PM

@Pirate88179
Thanks ,I'm Tickled and amazed that they are lighting perpetually i hope from the Earth battery i just threw together last week . The 3/4 inch galvanized pipe is 2 feet and even with the ground so my lawnmower don't hit it . It is Negative .. The small copper tubing is only a foot in the ground and i stomped the rest in the dirt so its covered . Its positive . they are less than a foot apart facing north south . I poked around a bit checking that theory and yes it puts the most voltage NS . I will have to get me a longer copper pipe as i see now that is why i get hardly no Ma's .I just wanted to see if the ground really did put out voltage and had it powering a Small Analog meter full deflecting most of the time when i first hook it up then it goes down a little . I wound these toroid's from one of those grab boxes for 3 bucks at Goldmine . I can tell you that mine had 1000's of leds toroid's transistors switches motors magnets coils ,Pots,resistors capacitors diodes tiny relays super caps and i could go on and on . I can stock My shop now all with a 3 dollar grab box . it weighed over 5 pounds .. So if you ever wonder about those suprise grab boxes they have 1000's of dollars in parts if you have to buy them all separate :)As for My 9Th and Tenth Joule thief i was very precise in winding them tight and pretty and it paid off with LIGHT !!I'm Still Experimenting !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 15, 2009, 07:48:46 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on January 15, 2009, 06:58:55 PM
voltage reading or ohm reading ?
for ohms, reversing the polarity might help. ;)

Both. Either.

I think once you are within the circuit something is going on that is not well described. What works about using the resistor at the battery is that the circuit cannot confound it.

Thank you for your suggestion.

@Sparks,

I was thinking of a fishbowl. Something that would heat up like a greenhouse for the same reasons. Maybe it would be worth a try. I think walmart has a cheap aquarium. I have 5 leds that are IR.

I don't have much more room in this house, however. ;D

@Bill,
I doubt if a regular blender would work, since it was designed as a standard (i.e. high amp) motor. I am thinking motors could be redefined to use high frequency low amperage.

I bet there is something somewhere that N Tesla wrote that might give some clues. I think there are Tesla 'scholars' here who might put their thoughts to this problem. (only if they want to, of course...)

@ Gadgetmail

cool earth battery!! 2 joule thiefs... wow.

So, is that 2 jts in series?

How do you put them in series? I am still not sure.

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 15, 2009, 07:59:13 PM

@jeanna
They are two seperate Jt's and the power input is parallel . I just hooked one up it lit and then put the other one on the same source and it lit also . the first one dimmed a little . Cool . and yea its cold here too in Nc ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 15, 2009, 07:59:31 PM

For driving a motor with hf high voltage you have to use a capacitor and diode. The motor has to be of high impedance so it will not respond to the highfrequency pulsing. This way the capacitor charges up and the dc component that is building up on the capacitor finally reaches a level that the motor responds to. Meanwhile your pulsing is still going to the capacitor.

It goes battery to oscillator to diode to motor to capacitor to motor to common.
In other words hook up the capacitor and motor in parallel and then the output from the julethief to these leads.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 15, 2009, 08:21:04 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 15, 2009, 12:53:57 PM
.
.
@ Jesus:

Thank you. Yes, this is still the original AA battery that came in the camera. It is not rechargeable. I have been using it for every experiment and to show all of my friends that have stopped by for the past month and a half. It is still alive and kicking. I guess I should measure the battery to see what is left on it. I will do that when I get a chance.

Bill

That is a great circuit. The problem is that it is too dificult to obtain.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 15, 2009, 08:31:13 PM

yes well

im a tesla fan 8)

lol

well i saw a vid on youtube oh a week or so ago.... ;)

some one has done just this ....

taken a jt powered 25 leds and a pulse motor lol that allows you to constantally charge the cap wile useing it ;D

link ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPiTorYYlAU

congrats to the builder ;D i had to add 1 more vid from this builder as it kickes ass! ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCIjIMDsGVs&feature=channel

ist!

what do you all think about a collector winding around the outside of the last vid 8) also ...

if you were to do this ... and it was square ... lets just say i have blowen many FETS when i apply a neo magnet to the conner ;)

kinda right where those four rotors run

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on January 15, 2009, 08:55:07 PM

I knew the j/t had great potential...thanks Ist.

What is he using to power the bedini motors in the 2nd vid ?

And isn't johnnydarvo a member here...his user name sounds familiar.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 15, 2009, 08:59:11 PM

Hi All,

I want to finish up this amperage thing.

I checked all my 3 jt's for amperage. Also I tried them with a well charged and also a sort of depleted one - in fact the one that ran the array all night.

I was surprised that there was very little difference in amp draw between batteries. (surprised because leds take less when there is less to take)

My first jt was the minimalist one where I was looking for the minimum turns on the pick up to see a decent light. It was 20 turns for the array.

This one draws the highest amperage at 0.026A
The MK1 draws 0.021A
The hybrid mk1/jt draws 0.023A (as I shared before)

So, in a way, the transformer rules apply in that the transformer with 20 turns has lower volts and higher Amp draw.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 15, 2009, 09:20:24 PM

@ jeanna

Current is set by base resistor value, transistor gain, and battery voltage. The differences you are seeing may be due to transistors having slightly different gains.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 15, 2009, 09:33:10 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on January 15, 2009, 08:21:04 PM
That is a great circuit. The problem is that it is too dificult to obtain.

Jesus

Hi jesus.

Yes, but we are far more empowered by making something as good with our little toroids and 1 transistor.

No, I haven't lit my fluro with the jt, but I am going to... ;) and more 8)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 15, 2009, 09:42:08 PM

Quote from: xee2 on January 15, 2009, 09:20:24 PM
@ jeanna

Current is set by base resistor value, transistor gain, and battery voltage. The differences you are seeing may be due to transistors having slightly different gains.

xee2,

Is that true even when the secondary is producing all the energy for the lights?

Anyway, I have it on a breadboard, and it is always the same transistor. And I never changed the resistor The only thing that changed is the battery charge (or the jt I am testing, of course.)

In fact changing the resistor is the next thing on my list of things to change, although I may add another member to this family. I may make another little toroid style jt with as many turns of the secondary as I can fit. Then test them all with different resistor values at the base.

thank you (again),

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: mdmiller on January 15, 2009, 10:29:38 PM

@jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on January 15, 2009, 09:42:08 PM
In fact changing the resistor is the next thing on my list of things to change......

I have had some test JT windings that refused to light with the 1K but I've gotten some blazing led's using a piece of automatic pencil lead (graphite polymer) in its place. They seem to vary somewhat but range around 5 to 100 ohm. I guess I need to pick up a few more resistors, but this works in a pinch. Anyway, I am thinking you may be on to something. - Duane

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 15, 2009, 10:53:04 PM

Quote from: mdmiller on January 15, 2009, 10:29:38 PM
@jeanna

I have had some test JT windings that refused to light with the 1K

... 5 to 100 ohm. ...

Duane,

First, I need to ask, are you talking about the joule thief with secondary?

5 to 100 ohm seems way low. I wonder how much joule thief - oscillation- is happening? Some, to be sure, or a led wouldn't light at all with one 1.5 volt battery.

Did you ever check out how long the battery lasted or how much drain was going on?

I was actually thinking of adding more resistance. I am glad you mentioned this. I will check both more and less resistance.

I love using a pencil. Did the pencil light up? There is a youtube on how to get emergency light if stranded . The guy lit a pencil lead with electricity. So many ideas...

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 15, 2009, 11:00:05 PM

@all

I am trying to replicate my 60 volt (the toroid must have a bigger gauss potential)output and got 30 volt with the same design , i have replaced the 1 k resistor with a 5 k trim pot and then could control the output from about 12v to 45 volt(45v at 42.5 ohm), This mod is a must! a 1 k trim pot should do a better job fine tuning it.

There is about 8 different type of ferrite this is a good way to make sure you get the most of yours.

@mdmiller

Great work on that earth battery.

Edit : some more earth batteries should give you enough to get it fully working, this project it important because i can run from close to nothing , now the Baghdad battery isn't so useless.

http://www.cwsbytemark.com/CatalogSheets/Ferrite_datasheet_oct06/FR_MATL.pdf

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 15, 2009, 11:27:31 PM

@All

Whoa! My Kodak circuit is giving me a steady 283 vdc! Of course it is only outputting 3.5mA. But, I'm not going to be picky. This is cool!
That 283vdc does not feel good if you touch the wrong spot.
I put the positive on the blue square and the negative on the blue circle.

Should I try to put the positive and negative where the cap used to be? Also, would a smaller cap work in the cap spot and not blow up?
*** Ok, I quickly tested and, putting the positive on the bottom cap joint and negative on the one above that, I still got 283 vdc. So, I guess if I were to put a smaller cap there that it would blow up?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 15, 2009, 11:57:21 PM

@ MK1:

Somewhere back in these pages I suggested the possible use of a variable resistor to "tune" these toroids and now you have done it!!! Excellent work. I am glad you posted the value of the one to use because I had no idea at all. I was just going to try a few of the ones I have laying about. I believe Jim used one also if I am not mistaken although I can't recall the value he used. No, wait, I think he used a rotary switch to test his different windings on his secondary. I think you are right in that this will allow us to adjust and tune for a given toroid, wrapped with x wire and using x transistor. This will allow all of us to see results similar to yours I hope.

I am still waiting on my toroids...no shipment came in tonight. I hope they didn't back order something and this is holding up the works.

The one that you used, is that range enough? I mean, can you see where the output is going up and up and up and then drops off as you tune it? This is very good information you have posted, thank you very much!

@ All:

I was going to make another video tonight but I could not think of anything to do for it. Once my other stuff comes in I should have plenty to film... I hope.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: mdmiller on January 16, 2009, 12:09:57 AM

Quote from: jeanna on January 15, 2009, 10:53:04 PM
Duane,

First, I need to ask, are you talking about the joule thief with secondary?

either or both depending on the coil. I'm still messing with some iron wire, the lower ohms works better with it.

Quote
Did you ever check out how long the battery lasted or how much drain was going on?

well, I got bored after 48 hours and disconnected it and rewound the toroid into another configuration. This was with a dead battery for starters and it was still going strong. My scientific process in probably weak, I don't have your absolutely incredible discipline to keep meticulous notes -- I'm jealous.

QuoteI love using a pencil. Did the pencil light up?

no, it was just some 0.7mm automatic pencil lead. nothing that spectacular -- wouldn't it would be wonderful to create a little mini-arc welder with one of these. maybe someday ! - Duane

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 16, 2009, 12:57:15 AM

Here are the results of the little bit of resistor test I did tonight.

I have 3 jt's.
and 1 stationary resistor 800 ohm and that thing sticking up in my pics is a 210 ohm. So it goes from 800 to full on where there is about 1010 ohm.

using the bridge rectifier and 2 voltages here are the results.

minimalist jt (small only 20 turns on secondary
800 ohm 15V
1010 ohm 17V

The MK1
800 ohm 33V
1010 ohm 36V

The hybrid MK1/jt
800 ohm 25V
1010 ohm 25V
Yes, they are the same with either resistance?

I think there are a lot of factors that go into the results. but, I want to go with higher value on these to see if they will go up any more..

BTW, I still cannot light my 35 led string. The array is 30 leds, but really only 10 in series,

I'm thinking the parallel is the real free ride here. Another thing for me to do is make enough winds for my 30 lights to go on in series. Maybe then I can light the string.

Thank you everybody,
what a great day!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sucahyo on January 16, 2009, 01:10:56 AM

Hello all,

my replication:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bALrlSxoquQ

Just to mention that tesla flat spiral has better power. The circuit originally used to light up neon and/or charging battery, that is why the transistor is Toshiba 2N3055.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 16, 2009, 01:50:58 AM

@ timmy1729

Congratulations on working out where to connect the tube. Great photo. Thanks for posting it. What model camera did the board come from?

You can replace the capacitor with any value, but make sure it has a voltage rating of at least 300 volts. The cap is not needed.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 16, 2009, 07:49:29 AM

Quote from: jeanna on January 15, 2009, 09:33:10 PM
Hi jesus.

Yes, but we are far more empowered by making something as good with our little toroids and 1 transistor.

No, I haven't lit my fluro with the jt, but I am going to... ;) and more 8)

jeanna

Thank you for your work Lady Jeanna.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 16, 2009, 08:41:34 AM

hello all

im in the process of rebuilding a few cam units on a hard board ..... why? :)

well i want to charge lets say 3 small value caps like 1uf 2uf 3uf well when they are full they will automatically discharge...

now if i could have the voltage around 90v or so .... and discharge them to 3 diffrent coils i could have some powerful style generator

speed is key ...

you want your caps always ready to fire so dont store large amounts just little ones released real fast! ;D

ist!

probally a good idea to have an overflow neon in there too ...... but once setup it will just run.... all on its own as i see it anyways

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 16, 2009, 08:44:41 AM

Quote from: xee2 on January 16, 2009, 01:50:58 AM
@ timmy1729

Congratulations on working out where to connect the tube. Great photo. Thanks for posting it. What model camera did the board come from?

You can replace the capacitor with any value, but make sure it has a voltage rating of at least 300 volts. The cap is not needed.

It was a Kodak MAX HQ disposable with a continuous flash. The box didn't say continuous flash specifically, but the back of the camera said it would keep the flash charged for 15 minutes. But, same thing. I would press the shutter button and it would flash and then it would automatically charge again. That made getting the battery out safely quite a challenge ;D

So, a cap that is smaller than 300 volts would blow up or something? And, a cap would provide no benefit? I'm sure this works like any other disposable, but does anyone know if it is making full use of both transformers? Someone said on here many pages ago that the circuit takes the battery and uses one of the transformers to step it up to a couple hundred volts and charge the cap. Then it further takes the 300+ volts from the cap and steps it up further, using the second transformer and small cap, to a couple thousand volts to flash the tube. I want to see if it is using both transformers.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 16, 2009, 09:19:16 AM

@jeanna
Hmm. I guess my post didn't post after Mdmillers about the resistors . If you notice a few pages back where i had the proto board of my earth battery powered Jt is has two Variable resistors and a 10 ohm hard resistor . the two pots are in series with the base of the transistor. they are 200 ohm and 20k so what i do is adjust high resistance and go low until the amount of light just starts to be usable and then measure the total resistance across them to the base . this gives me a hard resistor value to replace them in my particular circuit . you can do the same as everyone transistor and coil etc is different in some ways to me this is the best way to figure out the best circuit gain and tuning for your circuits .Just a suggestion as i have done this with all my jts . I'm in the process of incorporating 555 in this circuit to further My experiments with resonate tuning of the toroid . By the way there is a program called sound scope if you don't have an oscilloscope that uses your sound card's line input . it works very well for measuring frequency and waveforms and voltage . I can see the spike and H wave form on my SG circuit and also measure the jt frequency and peak voltage . It may not be as accurate as a real scope but close enuff for a free scope !.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 16, 2009, 10:46:16 AM

@ timmy1729

The camera charges the large cap to about 300 volts and then when the shutter is pushed the 300 volts is sent to another transformer to power the flash. If you only want 300 volts then the large cap is not needed. The circuit will produce about 300 volts continuously, but it will only produce the higher voltage for the flash for a micro-second and then the large capacitor must be recharged before it can generate the high voltage for the flash again. I do not know how high the voltage going to the flash is, but I suspect it is several thousand volts and may be dangerous.

When capacitors are used at higher voltages than they are rated for they usually will short out, but sometimes they will explode.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 16, 2009, 12:46:33 PM

well i built my power supply

i used a d cell battery a cam unit ... modded and a 275vac 1uf cap a rectangular yellow one found inside a microwave .. looked on the net for info found none ..... go figure ...

any how i can continually short the cap it is always full.... 8)

but i cant seam to get it to fire on its own.... hummmm

any ideas....

i will post a pic soon of the unit i made ... i will if i must use relays to switch it but i would like to have it fire on its own i will then dump this cap to a coil of low self inductance .. and see what comes back or use it to produce magnetic waves in an induction style generator that spinns ;D

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 16, 2009, 01:22:48 PM

@Gadgetmail,
soundscope... thanks. I will see if there is something like that written for linux. looks good

thanks

Quote from: innovation_station on January 16, 2009, 12:46:33 PM

any how i can continually short the cap it is always full.... 8)

but i cant seam to get it to fire on its own.... hummmm

ist!

IST,

I am not sure what you mean. (but this time close enough to engage it, so thanks for the clarity!)

When you say 'continually short the cap' are you doing that by hand?

To fire on its own? into another cap? into the inductor?

What you are doing is very interesting. I will appreciate being able to follow along with you.

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on January 16, 2009, 01:24:32 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 16, 2009, 12:46:33 PM
well i built my power supply

i used a d cell battery a cam unit ... modded and a 275vac 1uf cap a rectangular yellow one found inside a microwave .. looked on the net for info found none ..... go figure ...

any how i can continually short the cap it is always full.... 8)

but i cant seam to get it to fire on its own.... hummmm

any ideas....

i will post a pic soon of the unit i made ... i will if i must use relays to switch it but i would like to have it fire on its own i will then dump this cap to a coil of low self inductance .. and see what comes back or use it to produce magnetic waves in an induction style generator that spinns ;D

ist!

@ innovation_station

Not sure if this will help but maybe take a look at Gadgetmall's circuit where he uses an SCR and a high voltage diode to dump the voltage out of the caps as seen here http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6519.msg149358#msg149358

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 16, 2009, 01:34:16 PM

yes i just shorted it by hand DO NOT TOUCH IT!!!

it might hurt... lol

here is a pic i want to get rid of switching to drain the caps .....

there must be a simple way :)

ist!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 16, 2009, 01:50:15 PM

@ IST:

Can you maybe place contacts, or a single contact, on your spinning disk to discharge the caps? A simple copper spring type contact (as used on mini slot cars here in the US) might work. Then, the faster your disk turns, the more shorts you get per second. Just a thought which may not be useful.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 16, 2009, 02:14:31 PM

that ring is for the young effect i called it the young ring ;)

any how i grabbed one of thease power boards from a microwave it has a toroide wound on it with heavy windings so i hooked it up to my cam flash unit and powered it from the 1uf cap hooked my meter to the out put of it .....

now i have 622 vac and 287vdc and i hooked my meter across both on my miliamp scale and it reads 7.25 miliamps

now im not so good at metering things but that seams powerful....

ist

pic of new unit soon

and meter readings

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 16, 2009, 02:51:16 PM

something kool bout this lil unit i only read dc no ac on my meter when i reverse the polarity of my meter i read ac and dc ....

pics..

ist :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 16, 2009, 03:05:18 PM

not to hijack this thred but ....

how bout i throw this into a full wave bridge rectifier and charge a biggggggg dc cap to run a nice pulse motor

;D

so i will do so ;)

ist!

so the full wave brideg rectiefiter made no diff on the out put readings but it will help when i put a big cap there i bet

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 16, 2009, 03:10:47 PM

@ IST:

Don't worry, you are not hijacking the thread. All of this is very interesting and is probably related to what we are doing and what we will be doing. Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 16, 2009, 03:30:00 PM

well i just charged a huge cap in 25 seconds.....

to 75vdc 2500mfd the cap is rated at 400vdc 2500mfd

i will try some of my bigger caps .....

ist

;D

pic

my unit and a big cap 117vdc. ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 16, 2009, 03:51:17 PM

im happy to report after 10 min of turning the unit off i still have 55vdc of the original 117 vdc it seams to leak out slowly

ist...

IM EXTREAMLLY HAPPY TO REPORT THAT THIS UNIT FILLS MY BIG CAPS FAST ;D 15VDC 120 000 UF ;D

now if i can find the whatsit to close the loop we / YOU ARE DONE ;)

@ bill i bet you have a few WHATSITS... laying around ... and a few resistors ;)

charge up a WHATSIT LOL with an aa battery ..... and LET HER GO ....

it took me 2 min to compleatly full that cap to its rateings..... :)

NOW THAT IT IS FULL DO IT AGIN ...... JUST BIGGER NEXT TIME THAN THE TIME AFTER THAT IT IS ALL AT THE EXPENCE OF A D CELL BATTERY ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jonnydavro on January 16, 2009, 06:23:54 PM

Hi everyone.Some great work and cooperation going on here.
@IST. Thanks for your kind remarks.
Your new charger is looking really good.15v into a 120000uf in 25 seconds off a D cell wow!! I would certainly slap a pulse motor on that.
@Electricme. Hi Jim regarding your question about the coil.I used 250 meters off 28swg enamelled copper wire not sure about how many turns but it was one complete 250 gram spool from my local electronics shop but if i were you i would wind a bifilar or trifilar coil as it will give you a lot more recovery options.I am going to swap my coil in the jt pulse motor for a bifilar one for the above reason.
I reposted the circuit for my jt pulse motor on page 108 if anyone is interested in making one.The magnets i used are 25x5x5mm N42 neo's which i forgot to mention and make the motor virtually self starting and it is important to use more than just one led.
I can see plenty off ways to develop the jt pulse motor.I have made quite a few Bedini motors and i must say that I am quite flabergasted that i am getting high rpm's,lighting lots of led's and collecting lots off bemf off a 1.5v battery.I have had a play with it today and i will try to make a video tomorrow.
In the meantime,i tried my joule thief out as a battery charger.I tried to charge a 9v battery(whyi used a 9v i don't know.i shoud try it on a 1.5 also) and it gained some charge.
Here is a video
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=zHsUMIC5eV8
regards jonnydavro ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 16, 2009, 08:18:45 PM

well all almost done it :)

i will post a finished pic of it soon

im mounting the entire unit on a platform ...

then i just bought 6 more cam units 8)

NEXT BOARD.. CAPPAC! is at the mill being machined out of plastic i have already all the 6 caps .... now the charger unit ;)

back to work it never ends.... :)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Freezer on January 16, 2009, 10:00:06 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 16, 2009, 03:05:18 PM
not to hijack this thred but ....

how bout i throw this into a full wave bridge rectifier and charge a biggggggg dc cap to run a nice pulse motor

;D

so i will do so ;)

ist!

so the full wave brideg rectiefiter made no diff on the out put readings but it will help when i put a big cap there i bet

What about the magnet. ;D

Good stuff ist.. Show more pls.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 17, 2009, 12:02:42 AM

I am still looking around for something to run from my joule thief so I can make another video. I just got word that Electronics Goldmine will not be shipping my order until the 22nd!!!!!!! I ordered this a week ago but, I guess something got back ordered. (Probably the solar cells)

I was thinking of plugging my Fuji AA circuit into the wall socket and make my meter run backwards........I also was thinking that this might not be such a good idea.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 17, 2009, 12:33:14 AM

well FINALLY !!!!

ERRR....

i had to rebuild the cam unit.... built another and the darn thing started working agin.... ;D

wild...

any how all done

pics

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on January 17, 2009, 12:36:14 AM

Hi All

Need your help here if you can offer any advice.

Was just pondering about core material use in the jt (or any other ou circuit) and was wondering if anyone has ever considered using the magnets and holder such as pictured here from an old computer hard drive?

Could there be an advantage using these as cores from readily available dead hard drives? I work in IT but there's tons of these out there :)

If the unit is viable as a core which way would be the best configuration for the input and output coils?

Should the primary and secondary be wound around the end posts or the top and bottom plates?

With or without the magnets?

All comments welcome.

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 17, 2009, 01:28:15 AM

waste no time im on to the small pulse motor i have the biggggg one at the cnc... it weighs bout 35lbs b4 machineing and magnets ...

it will be 18 " and it is 2.5" thick... i already made 2 diffrent bigggg coils to power it i also have 2 gear boxes i hope to power with it

all powered from a few c or d cells ... and some cam flashes... ;D

i got 10 1 " round neos x 2" lift of 180 lbs...

my latest pulse coil is quad fillar ..... trifillar primary pulse .... and 1 trigger all 14 ga primaries and 22 ga trigger i will use 3 3055

maybe a few more pics tommorow ... ;)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 17, 2009, 04:20:35 AM

Quote from: Goat on January 17, 2009, 12:36:14 AM
Hi All

Need your help here if you can offer any advice.

Was just pondering about core material use in the jt (or any other ou circuit) and was wondering if anyone has ever considered using the magnets and holder such as pictured here from an old computer hard drive?

Could there be an advantage using these as cores from readily available dead hard drives? I work in IT but there's tons of these out there :)

If the unit is viable as a core which way would be the best configuration for the input and output coils?

Should the primary and secondary be wound around the end posts or the top and bottom plates?

With or without the magnets?

All comments welcome.

Regards,
Paul

Paul:

Others here know more about this than I do but my opinion is that you can't use a magnet for the core because that would interfere with the magnetic field set up by the bifilar coil when fired by the transistor. you could test this easily by bringing a magnet next to a ferrite toroid JT while watching the light. I tried sticking a small magnet into the center of one of my toroid while running and it did not help, it actually hurt performance. But, see what the others on here have to say.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 17, 2009, 09:06:02 AM

after all the building yesterday i decided to try and power something with the unit...

i powered a relay switch just the coil of the relay and.... well i was surprized ....

it ran quite some time b4 it finally drained the cap.... like 100 clicks of the relay or there bouts

so look at my mot and in 100 pushes it has more than filled that same cap..

hummm

back to work ... ;D

this stuff aint gonna do its self ... ;)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 17, 2009, 10:25:53 AM

High frequency high voltage compared to dc is like this. You can carry a book up to the top of a monument. (not an obelisk please) Then you have a choice. You can carry the book back down the stairs and place it on the target outside the monument or just drop it off when you are at the top. Which one will effect the mass of the target the most. Tesla's analogy not mine.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jonnydavro on January 17, 2009, 11:01:14 AM

Hi, :)I had a play with my jt pulse motor today and put another rotor on the unused end off the coil and now i have got 2 rotors spinning.I used 3v for this test and it was like a chinook helicopter.Here is a video off it.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kYWYzevJo_c

The rotor off my jt pulse motor sits on a dc motor for a bearing.When the rotor is being spun by the coil,the dc motor is acting like a generator so i wondered if i could use this output to run another,completly seperate joule thief and the answer is yes.I only used one rotor for this.Here is a picture.
@pirate.Thanks Bill.I am following what you are doing closely and enjoy your vids.Keep them coming ;D
Regards jonnydavro

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 17, 2009, 11:55:43 AM

nice video jonny...

got an idea for you ;)

take a bunch of those units stand them vertical form a ring of many of them throw the ring of em inside 2 pancake coils ...

1 top 1 bottom

harness the extra flying feilds .. but if you fed power into the pancakes would you not have and electron pump :)

neat in the vid how your orange stripes at diffrent points sync with one another... and at other times do not .. hummmm unless it is my eyes but are they not pulsed at both the same time.................. :)

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jonnydavro on January 17, 2009, 12:27:41 PM

@IST.Thanks.i might try your idea out on a smaller scale sometime in the future credits to you.Regarding The rotors syncronisation.They are in sync it's just that they are rotating in opposite directions,its not your eye's. ;D
Regards jonnydavro

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 17, 2009, 01:31:13 PM

@All

Just a thought/question that probably has been answered in one form or another:
I'm winding a pickup coil over/between the windings of my current big toroid(1.125") using 22 or 24 gauge enamel magnet wire. Now, once I run that through a bridge and produce DC, is there any way to put that back into the JT circuit? I'm thinking past the battery(I'm using non-rechargeable and don't want it to blow up). Would it provide any boost whatsoever? I'm thinking(dangerous, I know) that maybe a good point for the + of the bridge would be on the + leg of the LED, between the diode and cap. Correct me, please, but I'm thinking that the diode would keep it moving forward and just add it to the current going into and beside the cap. Then hook the - from the bridge to the spot on the - side of the LED between the light and the - side of the cap. That way the LED would be the diode keeping things in one direction and the cap would smooth out what goes through the rest of the circuit so I don't fry anything(just my luck).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on January 17, 2009, 02:02:41 PM

try this (seen it in a video and its really cool) if you have a magnet that will fit inside a torrid put it in! free style, you will want it enclosed in a tube or something tho! if you dont, build an air coil transformer and try that too! there is a video on you tube of a guy using a bedini motor and had a air coil. he had a small neodinium magnet he put in a tube and placed inside the transformer it sounded horrible but the lights got brighter!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 17, 2009, 02:30:04 PM

i have seen this ;D long ago toooooo.... lol

verry cool !!!!

kinda reminds me of my danceing magnet generator ;) based on marcos danceing magnets... :)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 17, 2009, 02:46:56 PM

Jonny:

Great video man. (5 stars) I think it is incredible that you are using both ends of the coil and driving 2 rotors. I take my hat off to you. Great job!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on January 17, 2009, 03:30:02 PM

@timmy1729

look carefully at your schematic.
the battery is connected to the collector and to the emitter, same as the load...

the load, everything on the right side of the transistor, is almost directly connected to the battery.
the inductor resistance is almost nothing.
it will make no difference if you apply what come out of the bridge rectifier to the battery or not, unless you switch polarity.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 17, 2009, 06:01:40 PM

well boys and girl lol ;)

i got a bunch more cams..... i bet you all were takeing bets on how long b4 i built something lol ;D

anyways....

it has been built

and im building a better one ..... imagine ::)

this one has 12 formers...

next will be 36 and i will call it THE ONE RING all chargeing 1 big cap for higher current applacitions... ;)

ist

sure i will post a design 8) of course you all know me i have gone a few steps more and was thinking of some ceramic magnets and a collector winding ontop the whole ONE RING ;)

ok song time agin....

the ONE THING

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXvB7So4VUw

if i gave it all away for the 1 thing ......

what is the 1 thing?!?!?!?!?!

:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0CVqEbksbc cuz i give it all away ......

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 17, 2009, 06:34:02 PM

Quote from: timmy1729 on January 17, 2009, 01:31:13 PM
@All

Just a thought/question that probably has been answered in one form or another:
I'm winding a pickup coil over/between the windings of my current big toroid(1.125") using 22 or 24 gauge enamel magnet wire. Now, once I run that through a bridge and produce DC, is there any way to put that back into the JT circuit? I'm thinking past the battery(I'm using non-rechargeable and don't want it to blow up). Would it provide any boost whatsoever? I'm thinking(dangerous, I know) that maybe a good point for the + of the bridge would be on the + leg of the LED, between the diode and cap. Correct me, please, but I'm thinking that the diode would keep it moving forward and just add it to the current going into and beside the cap. Then hook the - from the bridge to the spot on the - side of the LED between the light and the - side of the cap. That way the LED would be the diode keeping things in one direction and the cap would smooth out what goes through the rest of the circuit so I don't fry anything(just my luck).

Try something like this.
You have to find the way to connect the negative and the positive output of the bridge back to the battery or the negative and positive of the LED. Also you can connect a second battery to the bridge output and it will be recharged. The LED will turn off while charging another battery.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 17, 2009, 07:41:25 PM

@timmy1729
I posted this schematic several pages back but no paid attention to it so i thought id post it again . It requires you make your toroid with another output winding and it does feed back to the battery and it does prolong the life of a dead battery on this Joule thief . It works . Not ou but you can see it boost the voltage when you feed it back .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on January 17, 2009, 07:47:07 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on January 17, 2009, 06:34:02 PM
Try something like this.
You have to find the way to connect the negative and the positive output of the bridge back to the battery or the negative and positive of the LED. Also you can connect a second battery to the bridge output and it will be recharged. The LED will turn off while charging another battery.

Jesus

did you tested that ?

what is after the first diode that is not before it ?
the answare is : nothing

the part of the ac cycle before and after the first diode are the same.
you simply have rectified the ac, removed a half of the ac cycle, and reduce the volts a bit by .707

and why should the led turn off while charging ?
the led is in parallel with the bridge.
unless the battery being charge use all the available current(short circuit), the led will still light.

the schematic timmy1729 posted show 2 rectifying circuits.
the first diode + the cap is one
the bridge is the second.

the first diode rectify half of the ac cycle, the bridge..., only a half too.
since it is connected after the first diode, only half of the cycle reach the bridge.

note that the bridge rectifier also drop the voltage by 1.424 volt
think about before trying to charge a second battery.

as it is, i would not try to charge a second battery, the joule thief is not a OU device yet.
hooking the output of the bridge to the input will do nothing else then change the frequency at witch the circuit work.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on January 17, 2009, 07:51:07 PM

@gadgetmall
more feedback..., i must test this.
thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 17, 2009, 08:43:49 PM

@TheNOP
Hi . What do you need to know . i posted this 10 20 3050 :) pages ago . This thread is so full of different experiments it took me two days to read thou them all just to catch up . I posted this experiment with a picture i think . I still have this one . make a regular Jt bi with 40 turns . i used a computer toroid not the large one the next size down maybe 3/4 inch . copper wire . then i took the real thin 32 which is a pain to wind cause you have to string it out first and make sure it does not tangle .. I wrapped this in between the the regular windings 100 times . it didn't go around all the way . i think if i had the patients you can wrap 500 or more times but i did 100 .. then i wrapped another unused winding that lights an led but it dims the other one .. I used the pots to adjust the bias and frequency to obtain light and positive feedback . you will see that the battery voltage will increase when you connect the feedback up.. Edit .. Dang W"W" Key is sticky . I know how to spell rapped ::)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 17, 2009, 09:00:34 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on January 17, 2009, 07:47:07 PM
did you tested that ?

what is after the first diode that is not before it ?
the answare is : nothing

the part of the ac cycle before and after the first diode are the same.
you simply have rectified the ac, removed a half of the ac cycle, and reduce the volts a bit by .707

and why should the led turn off while charging ?
the led is in parallel with the bridge.
unless the battery being charge use all the available current(short circuit), the led will still light.

the schematic timmy1729 posted show 2 rectifying circuits.
the first diode + the cap is one
the bridge is the second.

the first diode rectify half of the ac cycle, the bridge..., only a half too.
since it is connected after the first diode, only half of the cycle reach the bridge.

note that the bridge rectifier also drop the voltage by 1.424 volt
think about before trying to charge a second battery.

as it is, i would not try to charge a second battery, the joule thief is not a OU device yet.
hooking the output of the bridge to the input will do nothing else then change the frequency at witch the circuit work.

I was trying to help the guy with the modification he made.
Yes I tested it and it charged a battery in fifteen minutes to a charge that it was used to run the same joule thief with it.
The way I did it is as depicted on the circuit included here.

Edit:
The only change was that instead of 1k resistor I used 220ohm. With it the light is brighter and charges a battey in fifteen minutes. If you use a power supply set at 1.5 volts as input the battery is charged fully in a couple of hours. Do not let it overnight or the battery will leak everithing that has inside and make a mess.
Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 17, 2009, 09:13:57 PM

just another note that it will charge another battery as unloaded produce Ol in the 20 volt scale on the DVM and charged up a 5.5 super cap in 2 mins . Also i have tested Jesus's circuit and it does work ,except i Charged a twin double aa pack and the led gets brighter OR rather stays lit ..I did not do a long term test on his however but i see that it might be possible to bleed some of the double aa power back to source prolonging the run time . possibles .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 17, 2009, 09:17:16 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on January 17, 2009, 08:43:49 PM
@TheNOP
Hi . What do you need to know . i posted this 10 20 3050 :) pages ago . This thread is so full of different experiments it took me two days to read thou them all just to catch up . I posted this experiment with a picture i think . I still have this one . make a regular Jt bi with 40 turns . i used a computer toroid not the large one the next size down maybe 3/4 inch . copper wire . then i took the real thin 32 which is a pain to wind cause you have to string it out first and make sure it does not tangle .. I wrapped this in between the the regular windings 100 times . it didn't go around all the way . i think if i had the patients you can wrap 500 or more times but i did 100 .. then i wrapped another unused winding that lights an led but it dims the other one .. I used the pots to adjust the bias and frequency to obtain light and positive feedback . you will see that the battery voltage will increase when you connect the feedback up.. Edit .. Dang W"W" Key is sticky . I know how to spell rapped ::)

@ Gadgetmall:

Please feel free to post any drawings or photos again, or (if you can find it) post the link to the page. Yes, this topic is moving very fast and deals with at least three different approaches (probably more than that) and it can be very confusing....trust me.....I know this first hand. So, if you think it can help someone and you cannot easily find where you posted it before, go ahead and repost. I want everyone here to help each other as others have been helping me. Which, I am very happy to say, that is exactly what has been happening. Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on January 17, 2009, 09:19:26 PM

i believe bedini showed us best with charging batteries, do not i repeat DO NOT use a higher voltage to charge a battery! it is a false charge!

current battery charging methods send 1.7 volts to a 1.2-.1.5 volt battery, what it sends that recharges it is the amps which does all the work! yes voltage can be funny and drive a light with little to no amps but that is a different principle.

bedini charged his car batteries or lead acids with a +20 voltage spike that had little to no amps to back it. this does not work! it raises the voltage of the battery creating a false positive!

High voltage spikes do help in one area which bedini showed. take a dead battery one that cannot be charged and connect it to a "bedini generator" and you will find that somehow it wakes the batteries up and allows them to function again!

im assuming it cleans the poles of the batteries?

i seen some speak of AC in this curcuit, its not AC as the AC has no way to reverse polarities (the LED IE Light Emitting DIODE) prevents AC. the meters see AC because pulsed DC looks like AC. remember volt meters do not show the whole story especially digital ones they take "snap shots" to compare. if you want a true reading of what your dishing out attatch a cap. what ever voltage it reaches is the voltage your spiking at. remember a cap can only reach the voltage it is charged with!

EDIT: by the way have a look at the jule thief curcuit and compare it to bedinies work, i think you will find they are roughly the same curcuit in principle! use a iron core (not torrid) and you have a bedini pulsing generator!

cheers

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 17, 2009, 09:30:56 PM

@ Artic Knight:

OK, speaking of caps, I have a question. Take my new super caps (2.3 v 10F) for example. I got the 2.3 volt version so I could charge them with an AA battery (1.5 v) and not blow them up. But, How do I know how many amps (or mA's) these caps can hold? For example, if I charge up a supercap with 1.5 vdc from an AA battery, I can get it to light 3 superbright leds for about 20 minutes. Now, if I used a C or D sized cell, would this make the led run longer as I am maybe putting more mA's in to it? Do these caps only really store volts only?

I have searched the net and I have to say that I learned more about supercaps from playing with them than I can find info online. The way they work like batteries has not been mentioned in any of my reading. All of my prior understanding of caps was that...you put X into them and they will dump X out in a micro second.

I plan on doing, or attempting to do, more experiments involving these and even larger caps so any info you could tell me would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance. (PS. I still have some friends of mine that tell me I must be mistaken as a Farad is a huge amount and no one makes a 1 Farad cap much less a 10 F cap. I told him I could buy, if I could afford, a 5,000 F cap and he said that was impossible. He is an old radio guy.)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 17, 2009, 09:50:07 PM

Hey Pirate thanks . HEy i got some of those 2..5 volt 4.7 farads too . Also i got some 5.5 volt .22 farads . I think you said you had an earth battery . I found out that if you put a cap in the input circuit along with the 2.5 volt super cap . it don't light , well it does start to light after about 20 minuets BUT if i use the .22 farad 5.5 volt it lights up almost instant . also it will light brighter with a cap on input But it will light the Jt up a little without a cap . . Now My earth battery is only putting 1.08 volts at an unmeasurable current ie 0-1 ma How does it run a 10,000 mcd led i don't know ? But it does :) Wonder if you tried it Pirate ?

Artic .. as for the bedini i have to say that is not correct . I have 7 bedinies and they all produce High Voltage and Charge the heck out of lead acid and regular Alki battery's . I have burned up several alkie battery's . I heard a wistle one night and happened to look at my 8 pak of AA and one was Spitting Liquid out the top with a Hiss (Rayovac) and i have an over unity Bedini that Charges its own battery plus a secondary battery and i have to dump the charge every 3 days cause the voltage gets up to 16+ and burned one of them up already .. I use a cap on the Bedini output . On the Ou Bedini i pules a cap with an scr sometime 60 to 100 volts just to slow down the secondary batt charge. see here.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRnYQvYEwkM

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on January 17, 2009, 10:06:37 PM

This is a basic joule theif circuit done with a big coil.
The coil I used is a trifilar coil.
It has a 23ga. bifilar winding 750 turns.
Then a 21ga. 450 turns wound on the out side of the two 23ga. windings.
With an iron core.
The + is the start of the coil and the - is the coil ending.

The interesting thing is when its running to place a magnet on the front of the coil.
Then it really takes off and you can hear the coil screeching.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 17, 2009, 10:20:56 PM

@Slayer007 . Thats Cools . Do you use "Dead" 12 volt battery's ;D JUst kidding . I got to try this one too!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 17, 2009, 10:29:33 PM

@All

3 days away is to long to much reading to do.

Welcome to every new posters , those of the energetic forum people sharing there forces , that's the way i like it! Some of you have posted real important things in the early pages , but the nature of the forum you need to repeat really feel free to , the learning curve for some is steeper then others , all your experiments are important , even if it takes a month before get the significance of it.

Really there are now so many people thank without missing anyone , you are all needed never forget that!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 17, 2009, 10:49:21 PM

@all

I have made a 3 core jt it works but out from core one is regular second one it starts dropping a and the last core has about 2/3 of the first core output ,on this first try i only connected each side of the cores in series, this was only to see results and it is not the optimal way to do it but it works.I got decent voltage from all 6 pickup coils 20 volts and up.

@Slayer007

It works with only one magnet ?A second in reverse polarity at the other end of the core doesn't work?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 17, 2009, 11:30:29 PM

ok just 1 more for now to keep you all thinking .. ;)

:)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on January 17, 2009, 11:36:25 PM

Here is a video I just uploaded on you tube.

Notice the voltage just go nuts when I put the magnets on front of the coil.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rt3DMyanfWc&feature=channel_page

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 17, 2009, 11:41:09 PM

@ Mk1

Good experiment. Is this your circuit? What were the voltages?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 17, 2009, 11:44:30 PM

Quote from: slayer007 on January 17, 2009, 11:36:25 PM
Here is a video I just uploaded on you tube.

Notice the voltage just go nuts when I put the magnets on front of the coil.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rt3DMyanfWc&feature=channel_page

now that rocks!!

how about a schem ... for everone to share ...

jesus.... groundloop?

im gonna have to build it ;D

8)

agin awsome vid and great job ....

ist!

ps i know you posted your schem i just mean a compact computer drawen one and im not nocking you drawing skills ;D you should see mine lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 17, 2009, 11:44:54 PM

@Lidmotor , Not yet with us i think but real nice inputs!

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=xrwQJ7oM9ZI&feature=channel_page

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=EgfBWgoxy0A&feature=channel

Great work !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on January 17, 2009, 11:53:33 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 17, 2009, 11:44:30 PM
now that rocks!!

how about a schem ... for everone to share ...

jesus.... groundloop?

im gonna have to build it ;D

8)

agin awsome vid and great job ....

ist!

ps i know you posted your schem i just mean a compact computer drawen one and im not nocking you drawing skills ;D you should see mine lol

Thank You innovation_station

There is a circuit for it on page 141.
Sorry I dont know why it turned out so big.Have to look at my scaner settings LOL.

Sorry I didnt see your P.S at the bottom till after I allready posted.
Yes it is a bad drawing wasnt planed out to good.
But it should just be a basic joule theif circuit with a differant coil configeration.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 18, 2009, 12:23:08 AM

@ slayer007

Good video. You may be able to light a fluorescent tube with your circuit. I think you would be the first to do it with a self made Joule thief.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 18, 2009, 12:25:06 AM

@All

Ok i made some mistakes on the analyze of the circuit , all the pickup coils are the same except the one in blue that has more turns 38 all the others are 24 turns (core jt 2x4 turns per core), The same core can give up to 46 volt per side when used in a single circuit fashion, 3 on them show about 23 volts on all coils, those are better results then expected on the first try. The voltage on 0.4v is the same in all the circuit at every core.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 18, 2009, 12:32:12 AM

@Slayer007

Really really nice movie!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Light on January 18, 2009, 12:41:42 AM

Pickup coils on toroid can multiply oscilating impulses but still needa to do something with charging part of circuit in order to send charge back to the same bttry.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 18, 2009, 12:50:14 AM

@light

Maybe 2 batteries is the way to go until 2 super caps could be put in place.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=xrwQJ7oM9ZI&feature=channel_page Check this out.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 18, 2009, 12:59:38 AM

@ Mk1

Is this correct? If you put all three secondary coils is series it seems like you would get more than 43 volts, so therefore this seems to be a successful way to increase the output voltage.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 18, 2009, 01:08:45 AM

Great videos all!!!

MK1 Thanks for posting lidmotor's videos. I invited him to join us here as well. I sure hope my shipment comes in soon so I can do more stuff too. This is great! A big welcome to all of the new folks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 18, 2009, 01:13:32 AM

@All

Wow, do I feel dumb! I just looked back at the schematic I posted today and I realized I didn't put the pickup coil in there and its wires going to the bridge. ::)

Someone posted something a few pages back about putting a cap in the Earth battery wiring. Can you post a drawing for what you mean by that? I think my Earth battery is on the verge of being able to produce light from an LED. Maybe that would be the little thing that makes it work.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 18, 2009, 01:20:06 AM

@xee2

All my toroid core have 4 coils , 2x4 turns (jt coil used to stress the core)and 2x24 turns, so 3 core = 6 pickup coil plus 6 Jt(4t)coils they all give me about 23v, the voltages are the one my modification of your drawing , the added in series or parallel .The same core and coil in a single core jt give me 45 volts , There has to be a way to get to that.

Is your question about the voltage is a closed circuit on the second 4t coils?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 18, 2009, 01:30:57 AM

@xee2

1 - 22.3 v
2 - 21.5 v
3 - 25.2 v
4 - 35.9 v(38 turns)
5 - 22.3 v
6 - 23.6 v

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 18, 2009, 01:32:43 AM

Timmy:

I used this simple circuit with a super cap last year on my earth battery experiments. I believe it is a 5.5 volt .22F cap. as someone just posted, it would charge up the cap AND light an led very well at the same time. I could then take it off the earth battery (this is where I fist learned a little about super caps) and it would still light for about an hour at a good brightness, and another hour not so much. The LED was brighter with the super cap in the circuit than running on the EB alone.

I am going to try a similar set-up with the new supercaps and the joule thief and the earth battery.....soon hopefully.

Bill

PS This was the circuit used when I made this video a while back: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mq9ZKDKDclY

I was posting on youtube under the name 0WildBill0 at that time. I think this has over 20,000 views.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 18, 2009, 01:34:58 AM

@ Mk1

Thanks for explanation. If all 6 secondary coils were put in series do you think you would be able to get 6 x 23 = 138 volts out?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 18, 2009, 01:41:04 AM

@xee2

Not tested but is seems to be reasonable to assume is series . But it could deliver up to 270 volts . My wire gauge is really big with turns alone it could get 420 easily.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 18, 2009, 01:47:31 AM

@mk1 420 lol now theres a # i know ;D

1 ist cap motor video comeing right up ... ;D

did domeone say perpetual motion was imposible .... lol

did some one say ou was a pipe dream ?!?!?!

;D WELCOME TO MY REALITY ;D

IST CAP MOTOR .... http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=QwjzaHcUkME

later prototypes will be sulf running with out loss AND MUCH GAIN and NO MOVEING PARTS...

AND THE BEST PART NO BATTERIES ;D

but dont forget teslas trick LET A SINGLE DISCHARGE BE FIRST CONSIDERED ;) OR MY TRICK LOL LET A SINGLE CHARGE BE FIRST CONSIDERED ... ;D

IST!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 18, 2009, 01:53:45 AM

@ist

Keep rocking! Great video!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 18, 2009, 02:04:16 AM

@all

There are now a very nice group of circuits to choose from.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 18, 2009, 02:31:56 AM

@ Jesus:

As if I wasn't confused enough already.... ha ha. That is a good post to have them all in one place. Thank you.

Hey, I don't know where you are located, but pm me if it would be possible for me to send you a Fuji AA board. I can get some for free so it is no big deal. Just let me know.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 18, 2009, 02:37:56 AM

thank you jesus 8)

connect the dots ..... ;)

i added to the pic lol

ist

1 more pic just incase you all thought i was not gonna build it lol ;)

oh i for got to mention i have bedini motion and or motionless or TPU'S IF YOU PERFER ..... designs ... aswell

cheers!

yes i do keep quite busy ;D 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 18, 2009, 02:45:40 AM

@timmy1729
if you have at least 1 volt on your Earth Battery you can light up a Joule Thief . Here how i do it

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 18, 2009, 03:32:57 AM

Here is another video I made tonight. This one is just a video of a Jule thief night light I made a while back. I am still awaiting my shipment of solar cells and stuff, so I thought I would make this video in the mean time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUR3jR75ZeQ

Bill

***EDIT*** Not that it matters but the new software I got (video production software) allows me to add music in the background on my videos. All of the music was written, arranged and performed by me for what that is worth.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 18, 2009, 08:23:45 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 18, 2009, 02:31:56 AM
@ Jesus:

As if I wasn't confused enough already.... ha ha. That is a good post to have them all in one place. Thank you.

Hey, I don't know where you are located, but pm me if it would be possible for me to send you a Fuji AA board. I can get some for free so it is no big deal. Just let me know.

Bill

I will PM you the same @gadgetmall with the addreses needed. I am waiting for a reply from @gadgemall on Feddback To The Source thread. (it is a comment about his circuit transistor polarity)

I saw your last video. It was cool that "Pirate Lab" addition that your software allowed you to include. The nightlite looks good. There is a posted picture way back on the thread. For the new people.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on January 18, 2009, 09:26:04 AM

@ Bill,
Your friend sadly is living in the past. he is right however a 1F cap is huge comepared to old standards. 1 Farad is 1 Amp however and as you can see 1 AMP isnt all that much! now consider that 750 milliamps is 0.75 Farad and you have an idea how your caps stand up to a AAA battery! 2700MAH is a AA which measures 2.7 Farad. im sorry but with the invention of Dual Layer Caps also known as super caps or Ultra caps we can now surpass the density of a lithium ion battery! consider this next time you contemplate a electric car! also contemplate that capactiors can be charged in 20 seconds if the wiring and charge controller can handle it!

@ gadgetmall
before i start i would like to say that i am not trying to start an arguement, please run tests to validate any claims you hear including mine!
lets say you have a 12 volt battery and your sending 20 volt spikes at a MAH level, which normally spikes are not that big in our projects so MAH is average. you are not giving it much to work with but your giving it a lot of voltage this increases the voltage of the battery but does not give it the lasting amps it needs to sustain a reaction. try this to test your results, take that battery attatch it to a DC/AC converter (start with a new battery) and see how long it runs on a specified load, then cycle this battery a few times with your bedini and see how long it runs! it will raise the voltage making it appear to be charged but there is no lasting power behind it. ive tried and it didnt work. theres no amps to back it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 18, 2009, 09:50:27 AM

Another good way to store up energy is a resonant circuit. Imagine going and charging up your car with say 400 amps flowing back and forth between a capacitor and an inductor. The capacitor wouldn't have to be that big either if the voltage of the system is up around say 10kv.

Probably the best inductor to use would be the motor driving the wheels. ???
The best capacitor would be a Tesla bifilar wound pancake coil. Insulation may be an issue but still it seems to be the best way to make a big hv capacitor. Very high Q if you consider the total mass of the copper instead of just the surface is "charged".

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 18, 2009, 10:14:17 AM

@Artic_Knight
Hi . I would never start an argument with anyone . I know some people who build a Bedini and never get it tuned right and there for they get "fuzzy"static high voltage ,No true h waveform and therefor a false charge . If you build one and tune it right you do get current to push your high voltage . I'll Leave it to John Bedini to explain that as he has the Patent on this enerigizer and sell them for $1000.00's of dollars so i doubt they produce fuzzy static like you are claiming :)Mine produce over 200 volts at minimum 100Ma the one in the video produces without a neon in the secondary charger burst up to 400 volts at 10+amps . I burnt one of my Analog meters up trying to measure the output current without a battery or neon just the cap .thats why i keep neons all over my circuit to keep the voltage down and as you saw in the video with just a straight secondary output thru a cap i light up a 130volt 2.6watt incandescent bulb to near full brightness even with a neon in parallel with it . go figure /?/. I think there is more people in here that will tell you that indeed there Bedini truly Charged their Battery's up Better than Hard current wasting chargers.I reuse all my Disposable battery's including the 9 volts In everything even My dvms and smoke alarms and i don't notice any difference in length of charge vers new batterys
@nievesoliver

I never got a pm from you about the Germaniums i pmed you about ??

@All
i am here to listen learn and tell My trials errors and experiments . I find that the Joule Thief is much like the Bedini and is also a different animal . I don't want anyone to be mad at me or i don't want to say something that contradicts someone else's Views unless i can back it up with a real device , not an equation or theory Because the Science of What we are doing hasn't really been done yet like we are doing it .And as for Johns Sg Energizer i challenge anyone to tell him his sg circuit don't charge battery's better than a high current charger .?.He's over on the energeticforum.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on January 18, 2009, 10:51:20 AM

@gadgetmall

ok, if this is the case then im assuming you can adjust the output through a transformer and create a self running curcuit with a cap right?

in my opinion the only way to prove overunity or self running is to power via a cap

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 18, 2009, 11:21:36 AM

i have found if you have a false charge ..... your batteries are not conditioned ... and i bet they take time to do so i have done in vs out tests

no ou at this point i think it is because the barreties are NOT conditioned

but my batteries held current ....

cap motor will be done ....

maybe you missed my video.... take a resistor from my big cap fill a small one with it and close the loop it will run with gain ....

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 18, 2009, 12:26:05 PM

View Profile Email Personal Message (Online)


Re: Jule Thief
Â« Reply #1395 on: Today at 12:41:25 AM Â»
   Reply with quoteQuote
@timmy1729
I posted this schematic several pages back but no paid attention to it so i thought id post it again . It requires you make your toroid with another output winding and it does feed back to the battery and it does prolong the life of a dead battery on this Joule thief . It works . Not ou but you can see it boost the voltage when you feed it back .EDIT ****My Friend Jesus just pointed out that the polarity is wrong on the input . Thank you Jesus ! I just used the first transistor symbol i saw and didn't think about polarity . also D3 may light of not . if not just reverse it . same for the other led . Sorry . I just build them and tracing a gob of hanging soldered leads gives me a bit of a head ache . I know it works cause i built it . putting it on paper is kind of new to me or at least i haven't done it in quite a few years (like 30) No wonder it was ignored ;D

* fusionchipJTfeedbacktosource.jpg (73.27 KB, 609x402 - viewed 58 times

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 18, 2009, 12:46:26 PM

@Artic_Knight

Re: Jule Thief
Â« Reply #1439 on: Today at 03:51:20 PM Â»
Reply with quoteQuote
@gadgetmall

ok, if this is the case then im assuming you can adjust the output through a transformer and create a self running curcuit with a cap right?

in my opinion the only way to prove overunity or self running is to power via a cap

Nope . I tried it with JUST a CAP . It BLOWS the transistor from the piggyback coil immediately. the first spin on the rotor produces enuff voltage to light a neon without a cap . i tried this many times it need The battery to absorb the extra voltage . i have not figured a way to run this completely off the cap Yet . I don't know how to make a transformer work on DC ?? My Current is a little over 20ma on the charge from the piggyback coil and i have tried resistors neons scrs etc... . NONE will keep the voltage down and the current up like the primary battery . It has a unique property of reducing voltage while absorbing the current to a point where i need to dump the charge . Its as close to ou that i have ever seen until it burns up the primary . thus that is why i have knife switches and load the secondary. One day i will automate the switch load and hopefully get some real big 12 volt battery's use the extra power on one of my inverters for real home power ..I have Big forklift batterys outside using large solar panels and a powersupply bedini to keep them topped off but that is being used for something different . any circuit suggesting for doing what i have done will be appreciated . but i have proved it to myself and i say if it works don't fix it ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on January 18, 2009, 01:13:33 PM

it depends on the nature of the DC. pulsed DC can operate a transformer however if the pulses are too long some of the energy will be lost IE only a changing magnetic field is harnessed in a transformer such as the joule thief transformer. the Joule thief uses pulsed DC to operate! solid DC strait from a battery obviously will not change the magnetic field and thus you will get nothing on the secondary coil. this is why the Transistor and transformer is needed in this curcuit and everything else is just a performance adjuster.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on January 18, 2009, 01:47:08 PM

have you guys seen this link? it discusses that there is a break down voltage for the transistors. its a good read and possible a pitfall to some here on this forum.

http://cappels.org/dproj/simplest_LED_flasher/Simplest_LED_Flasher_Circuit.html

EDIT: apparently there is a 9v break down for some transistors. its rather interesting. they say you can adjust the frequency of the pulses by geting a lower capacity cap. this could be a easy way to generate your high frequencies if that is what your after. i beleive the ceramic caps are small, dont quote me just a guess. they infest old curcuit boards like a plague of roaches too :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 18, 2009, 01:56:42 PM

puttin on the BRAKES...... :o

now not toooooo fast lol......

but that looks like a self timming curcuit ;D ;)

or darn close..... might be good to sync things up lol ;)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 18, 2009, 02:16:25 PM

@Artic

If a transformer core is already saturated and we hit the core with another pulse what does this do to the core magnetic circuit? The second pulse would be producing some kind of magnetic response in the field inside it's turns but wouldn't the impedance normally associated with core saturation be negligible. In other words would there be an instantaneous flow of current in phase with the applied voltage even though it is flowing in a conductor geometry that would normally not allow this to happen. I'm talking about a torroidal transformer driven to saturation by a first pulse followed in very short order by a second pulse.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on January 18, 2009, 02:23:07 PM

well according to the page, the cap builds up a suitable voltage (9v) then the transistor cant hold it back anymore so its allowed to pass through, once the cap discharges below the breakdown voltage it starts to recharge again, i believe its the zeener diode that has a low primary bias and high flyback bias but is able to operate backwards and that could be used for higher voltages to accomplish the same thing essentially. the transistor is a diode that is able to lower its breakdown voltage as the "base" voltage increases so any diod in this curcuit that is able to operate backwards (and forwards in some cases) can have a voltage control timing effect to it.

so boys and girls if you need a simple timing curcuit well it doesnt get any better than that! will require some tinkering though!

if im not poorly mistaken there is a variable capacitor as well... however i do not know if it would be the voltage or the capacitance that would vary and we would want to vary the capacitance to vary the timing (however a variable RF choke might serve as a magnetic capacitor? they should be variable). that combined with a variable resistor (if needed to prevent burn out of curcuit or to slow the discharge of cap) and you have a perfectly configurable timing curcuit that should be easy to build, it can certainly take a variety of parts in its creation.

it should be similiar to what your playing with minus the transformer.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slapper on January 18, 2009, 02:56:34 PM

Transistors and many other semiconductor devices exhibit interesting characteristics in the circuits presented in this thread.

Do a web search for negative differential resistance oscillators.

Here is a link to Naudin's JLN Labs web page that goes into negative differential resistance circuits in some detail:
http://jlnlabs.online.fr/cnr/negosc.htm (http://jlnlabs.online.fr/cnr/negosc.htm)

Thanks for all the good work guys. Take care.

nap

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 18, 2009, 03:07:53 PM

@Artic_Knight
yep already built this one 2 weeks ago . i discovered putting a cap thru the base with a couple resistors . "electrolytic "that it blinks thus conserving the 1.5 volts for days longer however i did notice when she finally reached a lower voltage on the battery the blinking gets slower and stops and the led remains lit acting like a normal JT letting me know that i have a day or so before it dies completely .. . this is one of the ones i gave my little girl . it is covered with clear goop to keep it intact .Edit forgot to mention that i put this little green thing on it across the electrolytic . It was in a computer power supply glued on top of a capacitor so i think it is a thermistor . Its not Exactly the same using two legs of the transistor but Blink can be made from the 1 volt battery instead of 9 v and i suspect a tuning cap there across the same spot will accomplish a blink also .I thought is was interesting that they can make that transistor run with two legs though . COOL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 18, 2009, 03:43:20 PM

IF YOU WANT TO LEARN SOMETHING KOOL AND HOW IT ALL WORKS ....WATCH THIS VIDEO 8)

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=QRyKVU6YzYw&NR=1

IST!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 18, 2009, 04:32:59 PM

@ Jesus:

Thanks.

@ IST:

Great video man, I like this guy's approach.

@ MK1:

Great videos you posted also. I am learning a lot here but it is hard to keep up!!!

@ Artic Knight:

Thanks for the caps power info.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 18, 2009, 04:50:52 PM

@all
IF anyone needs a Germanium transistor with high gain and low bias . i have a few to give away for your low voltage Joule Thief Experiments .All i ask is you send me a self addressed stamped envelope and i'll give one to ya . Pm me if you are having a hard time finding one as they are now Vintage ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 18, 2009, 04:57:12 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on January 18, 2009, 10:14:17 AM
.
.
@nievesoliver

I never got a pm from you about the Germaniums i pmed you about ??

@All
i am here to listen learn and tell My trials errors and experiments . I find that the Joule Thief is much like the Bedini and is also a different animal . I don't want anyone to be mad at me or i don't want to say something that contradicts someone else's Views unless i can back it up with a real device , not an equation or theory Because the Science of What we are doing hasn't really been done yet like we are doing it .And as for Johns Sg Energizer i challenge anyone to tell him his sg circuit don't charge battery's better than a high current charger .?.He's over on the energeticforum.

I will PM you and @pirate today.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: AbbaRue on January 18, 2009, 05:58:16 PM

Quote from: Magnethos on January 17, 2009, 05:09:28 PM
Maybe this article could be usefull to anyone:

Resonance methods of electric power transmission
http://www.viesh.ru/Development%20of%20Resonance%20methods%20of%20electric%20power%20transmission.htm

I found this link so awesome I had to repeat it here.
According to this article it is possible to transmit electric power from one location to another using a laser beam.
The laser beam converts the air into ions that allow cold electricity to travel, just like using a single wire.
If this is correct you could for eg. send power from your house to your barn using the output from a laser diode.
I can picture the JT. lighting a laser LED and then sending it's power over the beam.
The question here is how to connect the laser beam with our wiring. Needs a transparent conductor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 18, 2009, 06:15:05 PM

Hi all,

I have been in computer-crazy-land since Friday morning. I just breezed through the last 10 pages and I am thinking that this jt recharger (s) is an entirely different item. Like the array, like the joule thief itself. It is working because of not usually described forces or reasons.

[@Jesus,
Thanks so much for putting all those circuits in one place! ]

I think that kind of circuit will turn out to be possible to use, here but the solar panel idea will not.

I have a solar battery charger with a meter on it. It ishows the predicted time to charge your batteries given the amount of sun the panels are seeing/absorbing.

It was very foggy this morning. I stuck the panel outside and saw the meter rise to just to the edge of the margin. (basically nothing)

Then I put my array right in front of it and there was no movement in the needle at all. (even less)

Then the sun burned off the fog, (good day for a test) and the meter is at the high end of the lowest light and predicts it will add 180mA in 3 hours to a AAA battery.

So, When Jesus says he can fully charge a battery with his jt circuit in ANYTHING LESS than 12 hours, This must be a totally different mechanism.

A battery is a chemical thing. There is no reason to think the recharge cannot be made in a way that directly affects the electrons of the chemicals. (or think of something else that would respond to frequency like that.)

mmm more ideas.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 18, 2009, 06:31:16 PM

@jeanna

Charging times not really a good indication since the super cap charge time is so short 20 sec or less, But really try the solar panel in front of your 30 led array for fun and check the reading in volts , the data may be really helpful , thanks again for your great work.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 18, 2009, 07:14:15 PM

@All

Let's not forget Kubikop http://ca.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=B3A9F5D9F5699FC6

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 18, 2009, 07:37:39 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 18, 2009, 06:31:16 PM
...
try the solar panel in front of your 30 led array for fun and check the reading in volts , the data may be really helpful ...
Mark

Yes,

I am in the process. I took advantage of about 4 hours of winter sun on one set of batteries. Now, I will see what 4 hours of the 30 led array will charge on another set of discharged batteries. This will be a very approximate indication of what the array can do in a solar charger.

Of course, I forget. There could be hundreds of leds. I ran out of leds at 30 and I have small breadboards. If I put 300 in a 10 series array 30 deep, the brightness would be great next to the 30. [the 30 is 10 in series and 3 deep.]

And, as those who have been following my tests have seen, There was need for another turn or 3 when I added another led in series, but the light remained just as bright even when I added 2 more in parallel, so, I am guessing || is a free ride.

I will let you know later this evening

thank you,

And welcome to the newcomers.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 18, 2009, 07:42:50 PM

guys no worries on the speed this is how i operate ... 8)

i will slow it back down to a crawl but some were ready some are not no problem

im GONNA WALK YOU THROUGH MY LATEST UNIT !!! ... ;D

pretty well step by step ... so everyone is on the SAME PAGE THEN WE MOVE AHEAD AS 1 8)

REMEMBER ALL WHO STOPED FOR THE CHILD ON THE STREET TO PUT A DOLLAR IN HIS HAND FOR SOMETHING TO EAT!

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=jI7ybx91Pww

WASENT THERE A LINE...... GIVE A MAN A FISH HE WILL EAT A DAY .... TEACH A MAN TO FISH ..... HE WILL EAT A LIFETIME 8)

i have modds to all to make this with ease.... ;D

i used a 4 aaa holder it has a built in switch ... i rewired it from 6vdc out to 3aaa 1.5 vdc out with off and on .... i have 12 in my next unit a total of 36 aaa batteries pics in the next day or so as i compleate it :)

i lay a claim to be able to run 3000 leds from this unit plus self run .... and still have output .... for extended peroids of time ;D ;D ;D 8) 8) 8)

I WILL DESGINING SOLAR STREET LIGHTS... 8) GROW BOXES..... YOU NAME IT STILL HIREING INVENTORS 8) APPLY VIA PM

doubt me go build it ..... ;D

ist

BTW i checked so far 1 curcuit on my board with 1 aaa battery supply .... out put is 705 ac and ... 350 dc ;D x12 :P

added battery holder mod pic

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on January 18, 2009, 09:42:46 PM

Quote from: sparks on January 18, 2009, 02:16:25 PM
@Artic

If a transformer core is already saturated and we hit the core with another pulse what does this do to the core magnetic circuit? The second pulse would be producing some kind of magnetic response in the field inside it's turns but wouldn't the impedance normally associated with core saturation be negligible. In other words would there be an instantaneous flow of current in phase with the applied voltage even though it is flowing in a conductor geometry that would normally not allow this to happen. I'm talking about a torroidal transformer driven to saturation by a first pulse followed in very short order by a second pulse.

sparks im not sure if i understand you completely or not so please correct me if im wrong, my understanding is that you have a saturated core with a magnetic field say rotating clockwise, you add an additional pulse clockwise with the flow and want to know if that will create a current?

understand this, the magnetism can only induce a voltage or current into a wire IF its changing increasing or decreasing. now if you have that core saturated and blast it again essentially adding to it at that moment your only going to get an output equal to the input, after which as the saturation slowly falls (depending on how its rigged i had one keep a led lit dimly for about a minute after power removed) as the saturation naturally falls it will generate a small and slow output. with the coils soo close as they are in most torrids even with the core saturated there is still the "air core effect" where magetism can still be put it however it will be extreamly short lived as there is no room for it to continue circulating in the core. at that point above saturation you have to consider its effects the same as a air core.

does this answer your question?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on January 18, 2009, 09:48:54 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on January 18, 2009, 03:07:53 PM
@Artic_Knight
yep already built this one 2 weeks ago . i discovered putting a cap thru the base with a couple resistors . "electrolytic "that it blinks thus conserving the 1.5 volts for days longer however i did notice when she finally reached a lower voltage on the battery the blinking gets slower and stops and the led remains lit acting like a normal JT letting me know that i have a day or so before it dies completely .. . this is one of the ones i gave my little girl . it is covered with clear goop to keep it intact .Edit forgot to mention that i put this little green thing on it across the electrolytic . It was in a computer power supply glued on top of a capacitor so i think it is a thermistor . Its not Exactly the same using two legs of the transistor but Blink can be made from the 1 volt battery instead of 9 v and i suspect a tuning cap there across the same spot will accomplish a blink also .I thought is was interesting that they can make that transistor run with two legs though . COOL.

yea in a seperate thread i created i looked for timing circuits and they responded with something more complex than i wanted, ie 555 timers and a something wierd ocilator? using 2 transistors, needless to say i figured there was a way to create a timing curcuit with less parts but i just could not bring it to mind. now i know i can use something like a diode (a 2 legged transistor) to accomplish this feat. basically the principle is the same as the joule thief once the voltage is high enough it will "force" its way through the block. now all you have to do is find a suitable block which can come in many forms and packages! a wiki search for diodes should turn up answers on diode behaviors and show a suitable diode for this use. keep in mind even a normal diode has a "saturation" point that must be achieved before current is able to flow even for normal operations! if my memory serves me you can get different diodes with higher (take your pick) saturation levels.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on January 18, 2009, 09:53:44 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 18, 2009, 03:43:20 PM
IF YOU WANT TO LEARN SOMETHING KOOL AND HOW IT ALL WORKS ....WATCH THIS VIDEO 8)

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=QRyKVU6YzYw&NR=1

IST!

in reference to that video i think youll find that the huge spike is negative reversed from the magnets approching the coil which would be positive (or vise versa depending on your positive negative orientation) that spike comes from the magnet leaving the "peak" or dead center of the coil cutting the second half of the coil. basically its one half of a AC generator. back emf counter emf its just the "reversing of currents" associated with a magnet passing a coil. use an ociliscope if you got one to test!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 18, 2009, 10:45:17 PM

my friend i have many things and many ways to achive the same ;) :)

i currently have close to 150 inventions of my own ...

i can do this compleatly from lol a few things..... NO TUBES .... OR SS .... :)

yea well ...

ist!

im shareing some things now ....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 18, 2009, 11:32:56 PM

@AbbaRue,
I went back for this quote of myself and saw your post about the laser beam. wow. thanks. Very cool.

Quote from: jeanna on January 18, 2009, 07:37:39 PM
Yes,

I am in the process. I took advantage of about 4 hours of winter sun on one set of batteries. Now, I will see what 4 hours of the 30 led array will charge on another set of discharged batteries. This will be a very approximate indication of what the array can do in a solar charger.

jeanna

So, after 4 hours of being charged by the 30 led array, the batteries did not budge. They remain 0.5V

The others in 4 hours of winter sun are now in use in a commercial battery run candle. These usually last about a week when they are on for 12 hours per night.

So, winter sun beats the 30 led array.

Since I still only have 30 leds, I will make a series of 2 that are 15 deep and measure the amperage draw.

Oh, but I forgot, I still want to get as many winds on one of these jt's as I can and see what it draws with the array.

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 19, 2009, 01:29:18 AM

hello everyone ... next report ... ;D

well modded all the batt boxes .. i can use 1-3 aaa to power each transformer there is a reason i have used idependent sources... YOU MUST USE IDEPENDENT SOURCES RIGHT NOW TO AVOID PROBLEMS.... :)

we will get there when we need to i can and will fully explain why this is nessary..... mo l8r bout that .....

for right now .....

i finished all the soldering and wireing on the entire main unit ..... still more to do till it is done and ready to run but im getting there ...

i have used 1aaa in all of the boxes to test them out ... it went down flawessssss ;D

all transformers switches and everything works perfect in the first test run .... my avrage voltage is 350 -450 dc each plus 675- 855 vac each... x12

from a single aaa each 12 batteries .. later on the batteries will be replaced with super caps...

so here is a pic of my progress to date on this unit ...

enjoy

ist!

BE DAMN CARFUL IT HURTS AND CAN BE DEADLY ...... GROUPING THEASE TOGATHER ...

DO THIS AT YOUR OWN RISK I ACCEPT NO RESPONCIBIALITY FOR YOU BEING STUPID......

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 19, 2009, 01:39:53 AM

Another video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPWh2hiJ758

Here I am testing 2 different Joule Thief circuits for sound on an AM radio.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Freezer on January 19, 2009, 01:45:07 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 19, 2009, 01:29:18 AM

Where did you get the transformers? Do you have a schematic for that device? So you are trying to combine or cascade all pulses into a ring?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 19, 2009, 01:58:01 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 19, 2009, 01:39:53 AM
Another video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPWh2hiJ758

Here I am testing 2 different Joule Thief circuits for sound on an AM radio.

Bill

great video bill ...

well it means trouble ..... lol

what i dont understand is this.... they sell em the exact way they are ... now so...... 1 would expect they do not cause so much interferience how ever i bet they brodcast at some distance....

need solutions guys.... can this be contained?

if so how ?

i have some answers yes but not ALL!!

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: AbbaRue on January 19, 2009, 02:12:26 AM

@ist
That looks awesome. Will you be giving us some current measurements too.
I hope it will run a regular light bulb.
If it lights a tungsten filament then it will produce heat, and not just light.
Heat is a measurement of real output.
That will determine how much additional energy this unit taps into.

@Pirate
Good test. If you put the camera unit into a box covered with Al Foil it should stop the AM radio interference.
I hope so anyway, good to know that the JT circuit doesn't cause much interference.
But you need to change frequencies to know for sure.
It might interfere on another frequency.

I hope Dr. Stiffler joins us here.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 19, 2009, 02:18:24 AM

@ IST:

Thanks. I thought is was worth looking into. Great work you have been doing there.

@ Abbarue:

You are correct, I did not scan the range of the dial during my test. I can try that soon. I too hope that Dr. Stiffler joins us. I am no expert but that sounded like RF "noise" to me and I would bet it would affect the radio at some distance. As you could hear in the video, as I moved the circuit, it went crazy...up and down in freq. My neighbors are probably cussing me while trying to watch TV, ha ha. If the FCC shows up in the morning, I will just tell them I am searching for free energy. They will understand.....right?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hartiberlin on January 19, 2009, 07:39:19 AM

Hi Bill and ALL,
great work.

Please try to measure the current going from the battery to your circuit via a Low Pass filter
and via an analog ampmeter.

Are the 400 LEDs as bright as if you plug them into the grid ?

Regards, Stefan.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on January 19, 2009, 07:47:36 AM

Here is a video Lidmotor did of the Big Joule Theif.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maRF1nw0J2Q&feature=channel_page

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 19, 2009, 10:00:05 AM

Quote from: slayer007 on January 19, 2009, 07:47:36 AM
Here is a video Lidmotor did of the Big Joule Theif.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maRF1nw0J2Q&feature=channel_page

SLAYER007

i have designed somthing for you but i ask you to stop posting any more details on it

until i have a chance to talk to you ...

im pretty sure you know what you have ..... 8)

if you do not you will when we SPEAK!

PLEASE POST NO MORE FOR A DAY OR SO..... THAN YOU DECIDE WHAT YOU WANT TO DO WITH WHAT YOU HAVE MADE YOUR OWN ...

THE COIL I HAVE DESIGNED IS FAR SEPERIOR TO ANYTHING CURRENTLY BUILT.... yes it is your work well kinda lol

i want to BUILD IT WITH YOU / FOR YOU .... :)

but not just yet ...

i have almost everything i need to build it ..

it is the SLAYER007 TPU COIL...

THE 007 TPU

hang tight bro ... i need at least 1 day b4 i start this build

i have to finish a few more things first.. ;D

peace all

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 19, 2009, 10:07:26 AM

Quote from: hartiberlin on January 19, 2009, 07:39:19 AM
Hi Bill and ALL,
great work.

Please try to measure the current going from the battery to your circuit via a Low Pass filter
and via an analog ampmeter.

Are the 400 LEDs as bright as if you plug them into the grid ?

Regards, Stefan.

my latest unit is designed to do time studyies in and out ....

and take proper mesurements ... i really dont have the time to study it .... so i will ship it out to the engineers ...

i have tonnes to DO .... and many things to design and build...

0000 just another day ....

but im not alone anymore ;D

kinda nice to have some people to talk with bout this stuff.... as many have no clue ...

so i have experienced anyways..

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 19, 2009, 10:40:18 AM

@slayer007

Your circuit is great!
The only problem is that the part labels cannot be seen on the youtube video.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on January 19, 2009, 10:46:47 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 19, 2009, 10:00:05 AM

SLAYER007

i have designed somthing for you but i ask you to stop posting any more details on it

until i have a chance to talk to you ...

im pretty sure you know what you have ..... 8)

if you do not you will when we SPEAK!

PLEASE POST NO MORE FOR A DAY OR SO..... THAN YOU DECIDE WHAT YOU WANT TO DO WITH WHAT YOU HAVE MADE YOUR OWN ...

THE COIL I HAVE DESIGNED IS FAR SEPERIOR TO ANYTHING CURRENTLY BUILT.... yes it is your work well kinda lol

i want to BUILD IT WITH YOU / FOR YOU .... :)

but not just yet ...

i have almost everything i need to build it ..

it is the SLAYER007 TPU COIL...

THE 007 TPU

hang tight bro ... i need at least 1 day b4 i start this build

i have to finish a few more things first.. ;D

peace all

ist!

@ IST

It sounds very good, please let me know when your ready to talk.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on January 19, 2009, 10:51:00 AM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on January 19, 2009, 10:40:18 AM
@slayer007

Your circuit is great!
The only problem is that the part labels cannot be seen on the youtube video.

Jesus

There is a circuit for it on page 141.
Its not drawn to good poor planing on my part.
But it should give you a good idea of how the coils hooked up.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 19, 2009, 10:55:16 AM

@all

Keep doing your great work!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 19, 2009, 11:02:13 AM

Quote from: slayer007 on January 19, 2009, 10:51:00 AM

There is a circuit for it on page 141.
Its not drawn to good poor planing on my part.
But it should give you a good idea of how the coils hooked up.

@slayer007

Thank you!
I reposted that circuit with some modifications on the size and the labels renewed. If that is the same circuit you have on the new video, then we have it already, but it does not ressemble the new video's one.
It is reposted here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg151235#msg151235

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 19, 2009, 11:15:34 AM

@ slayer007

Everyone else is running the JT from 1.5 volt AA battery. Can you please post the output voltages of your circuit when power by AA battery so that it is easier to compare its performance with the other circuits?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on January 19, 2009, 11:32:36 AM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on January 19, 2009, 11:02:13 AM
@slayer007

Thank you!
I reposted that circuit with some modifications on the size and the labels renewed. If that is the same circuit you have on the new video, then we have it already, but it does not ressemble the new video's one.
It is reposted here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg151235#msg151235

Jesus

The new video was done by Lidmotor not me.
The circuit in the video is the same accept he added the ignition were I had the rectifier and a pot going to base of the transistor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 19, 2009, 11:38:33 AM

progress as of now ;D

a few pics...

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 19, 2009, 11:52:17 AM

:)

thank you

william

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on January 19, 2009, 12:02:24 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 19, 2009, 11:38:33 AM
progress as of now ;D

a few pics...

ist!

@ innovation_station

I'm looking for what you describe as the CAP PAC but have searched the forum and cannot for the life of me find your design!

You had started a thread for it here but didn't include the design for this:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=4229.0

I noticed you mentioned it on a lot of threads but I still cannot find it anywhere ???

Would you be so kind as to enlighten us on how it is designed and it's use in the JT circuit please.

Thanks,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 19, 2009, 12:05:27 PM

Quote from: slayer007 on January 19, 2009, 11:32:36 AM

The new video was done by Lidmotor not me.
The circuit in the video is the same accept he added the ignition were I had the rectifier and a pot going to base of the transistor.

Thank you @slayer007!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 19, 2009, 12:06:20 PM

you bet ...

i will fetch the links ....

i think it was in half baked but stephen moved a bunch of my stuff round so i never posted agin in those threds........ >:(

i will put an efford in to find it all

it will be pictured in this thred when it gets back from the mill...

and i will make vids ....

ist!

yep that is the thred .... i posted the design in thanes thred..... sheesh i will look for it ... :)

here is the design i will find the link to where and when i posted this info.. ;)

might take me a bit

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 19, 2009, 12:23:55 PM

@Mk1

Nice videos. You have yourself a Tesla switch. The Tesla switch is basically allowing the current from one battery to charge another. Now lets move it up a notch and replace your batteries with two capacitors. The transformer load allows you to completely discharge the first capacitor and still charge the second. The current is transformed into voltage with less current flow but who cares it is still being captured and doing some work in the meantime. Your current is gonna run no matter which cap is being charged. You will have ohmic losses or heat and will have to recharge your capacitors unless you want to get into fine tuning the conductor fields. Voltage gain is power gain pure and simple. You take 1volt and transform that into 10,000 volts you done good. There's alot of one volts around not alot 10,000 volts around. The faster you allow a magnetic field to collapse the higher the induced voltage. Now you store this induced voltage in a capacitor and hit your next stage with a sharper pulse. The induced voltage gets stored again on a capacitor. Now you spike it again in another stage and store it. Now you can go on and on until your first little spike is now a huge spike. All starting from that first little spike. It will obviously take alot of time for all this spiking and staging and all the rest but we are talking energy here not work. Work is never conserved but energy is.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 19, 2009, 12:36:26 PM

sparks

exactally what you describe is my HEMF CASCADE AMP :)

lol

i have a few things you can work with me on too ;) bro

you see i have this plasma tornado im gonna build .... rotated by a rmf coil .... lol yea in a vacume tube style ....

literly i have 100,s of things i have yet to build lol ... i cant draw em down nor build em quick enough .....

hence THE TEAM!! ;)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Freezer on January 19, 2009, 03:14:26 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 19, 2009, 12:36:26 PM
literly i have 100,s of things i have yet to build lol ... i cant draw em down nor build em quick enough .....

hence THE TEAM!! ;)

ist!

Give me a doodle on a napkin, and I'll draw it up perfect. :) If you want to take it further, I can make you 3d renderings and or orthographics.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 19, 2009, 03:36:07 PM

Quote from: hartiberlin on January 19, 2009, 07:39:19 AM
Hi Bill and ALL,
great work.

Please try to measure the current going from the battery to your circuit via a Low Pass filter
and via an analog ampmeter.

Are the 400 LEDs as bright as if you plug them into the grid ?

Regards, Stefan.

@ Stefan:

Thank you!

No, the 400 LEDs are not as bright as on the grid. If you check out some of my other videos on youtube, I test starting at 100, 200, 300, and then 400. This is all subjective of course by just using my eyes but, the 100 were brighter than the grid, so much so I didn't run them very long as I did not want to burn them up. 200 was about as bright as the grid. 300 a little dimmer than the grid, maybe 20% and 400 was about 40-50% of the grid brightness. All of these videos were made with the LEDs in series but, on here many pages back, I posted photos of all of the same tests wired in parallel. I believe the series tests were all a little brighter at each level, but it is hard to tell.

I have an analog ampmeter and I will be happy to make some tests but, I do not have or know what a Low Pass filter is. If you, or someone tells me a value or a number for a part to get, and how to wire it into the circuit, I will happily do these tests.

Also, back many pages I posted a photo of me running 100 LEDs with only 1 wire. Maybe I should make a video of that as well? I will have to check but I don't think it would run 200 this way, only 100 with single wire with the blades of the male plug shorted together as suggested by I believe it was Abbarue if I am not mistaken. Thank you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 19, 2009, 03:48:48 PM

freezer where have you been lol 8)

we will chat at some point im just so darn busy .....

ya know :) :)

any how

TEST RESULTS..... ;D

PICS AS PROOF .... you dont have to take my word for it lol ...

frist the finished unit .... wich needs a name yet ....

bill i award you the job.... :)

lol

here is a pic

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 19, 2009, 04:10:17 PM

~~~~~~~~TEST RESULTS~~~~~~~~

when i first fired it up thease were my out put mesurments

i played with for a few min b4 i shot all the pics...

when i first fired it up i mesured 85 ma ...

output

and 410 vdc ... 865 ac .... so yes

12 aaa 1.5vdc cells im off to get the rest ..... so i would imagine it will run a little wile from all 36 ....

i have no cap in the unit YET ;D

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 19, 2009, 05:42:06 PM

8)

well got all 36 batteries ... aaa's

and i fired it up and it was putting out 175ma :o

do not touch it!!!

with out any cap

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 19, 2009, 05:59:25 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on January 18, 2009, 02:04:16 AM
@all

There are now a very nice group of circuits to choose from.

Jesus

@jesus,

I thought I would put together your charging jt today.

I only have some 1n4001 diodes, 1 Amp, 50PIV

I don't know anything about diodes by numbers or what the specs mean. I did look up the diode you used in my allelectronics catalog and found it under the switching diodes section where the 1n4001 is in the rectifying diode section.

I assume these are too different in function and cannot be interchanged.

Please someone, tell me if these can be used

thank you,

@Stephan,

So, using a 10 ohm resistor in series with a dmm at the positive battery terminal and applying ohm's law will not give the same result?

If it will be good enough, I will give all the results in one place for you on this.

(I think I used both my filters for use as joule thief toroids! ;D )

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 19, 2009, 06:00:51 PM

well i tested caps ... lots of em and they all charge fast!!!

including the 12vdc 500k uf cap i have less than 40 seconds to over fill that cap ... and it has a digital readout and 2 blue leds on it it powers ...

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 19, 2009, 07:03:03 PM

Quote from: jeanna on January 19, 2009, 05:59:25 PM
@jesus,

I thought I would put together your charging jt today.

I only have some 1n4001 diodes, 1 Amp, 50PIV

I don't know anything about diodes by numbers or what the specs mean. I did look up the diode you used in my allelectronics catalog and found it under the switching diodes section where the 1n4001 is in the rectifying diode section.

I assume these are too different in function and cannot be interchanged.

Please someone, tell me if these can be used

thank you,
.
.
jeanna

The diode 1n4148 uses less voltage or current to work than the 4001 or 4007 but for the purpose of charging the battery with the joule thief you can use the 4001 or the 4007 if you dont have the 1n4148.
Again the purpose of the diode I used is to use les voltage to activate it. So it is safe to use anyone from the 1n400x series.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 19, 2009, 07:21:00 PM

Here is a video showing me lighting 100 clear LEDs using only one wire from the modified Fuji AA circuit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQpx86Eg03g

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 19, 2009, 07:26:51 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 19, 2009, 07:21:00 PM
Here is a video showing me lighting 100 clear LEDs using only one wire from the modified Fuji AA circuit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQpx86Eg03g

Bill

i know your answer lol :)

you need an earth ground and an antenna ;D

teslas radient engery receiver lol

;)

ist!

teslas apprattuse for the utiliazition of radient engery

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 19, 2009, 07:46:49 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on January 19, 2009, 07:03:03 PM
The diode 1n4148 uses less voltage or current to work than the 4001...

... So it is safe to use anyone from the 1n400x series.

Jesus

@jesus,

Thanks. I will give it a whirl.

And, I will add the 1N4148 to my shopping list.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 19, 2009, 08:47:57 PM

@All

Forgive me if I am being a little dense, but did anyone ever say if I could feed the output from my pickup coil back into the JT circuit, bypassing the battery? Not necessarily to make it more efficient battery-wise, but just to output more. Could I hook the pickup coil to where it would feed the LED its energy as well as what the JT circuit produces and sends to the LED? Sorry for asking this again. I think my IQ drops a little every day I go to work.

I just went to Radio Shack yesterday(it's all I have around here) and got a big pack of 2n2222 transistors, a PNP transistor(just to mess with), and two TIP3055 transistors. I also got an LM386N audio amplifier chip, just to experiment with. So, if anybody has any ideas that I can test out this stuff with, let me know ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 19, 2009, 09:10:19 PM

@timmy

You are making a practice amp(lm386), lol i would go with a TDA2003(LM383).The problem i see with the feed back in the joule thief is that its not working very well with more voltage, some adjustments would be needed on the base resistor every time the voltage changes.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Tink on January 19, 2009, 09:14:33 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 19, 2009, 07:26:51 PM
i know your answer lol :)

you need an earth ground and an antenna ;D

teslas radient engery receiver lol

;)

ist!

teslas apprattuse for the utiliazition of radient engery

@ IST ;)
What you need is a rabbit ;)
So you can get at least one fool running after the carrot on your stick ;)
;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
Stop filling up this thread with crap.;)
This thread is about the Joule thief, but of course you are a busy inventor with more than 150 inventions and so you simply didn't had the time to look at thread heads.;)
Show us your goodies or shut up! ;)
Yes I am fed up with you.;)
You are lucky this isn't my forum.;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 19, 2009, 09:15:54 PM

well guys im sick of wateing for youtube.....

so here is 1 vid

I MADE 2 VIDEOS FOR YOU ALL

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=S-NxOrp8gAU

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 19, 2009, 09:28:25 PM

@Tink

Don't go to fast, the joule thief can be tuned to any core it's a mater of finding the right freq , and even a air core would do , now what do you think that means. Air core also means no core how can you say it's not there when you got a radio picking the sound of the jt.

And welcome !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Tink on January 19, 2009, 09:37:19 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 19, 2009, 09:28:25 PM
@Tink

Don't go to fast, the joule thief can be tuned to any core it's a mater of finding the right freq , and even a air core would do , now what do you think that means. Air core also means no core how can you say it's not there when you got a radio picking the sound of the jt.

And welcome !

Okay I will be silent.
The problem I have with IST is that he talks a lot but doesn't say anything.
Free energy is a hobby for me for more then 40 years but at the moment my gas is cut off because I can no longer afford to pay it (my child and I need food) and my house is very cold.
It is getting a bit more serious for me as you may understand, and IST is getting on my nerves with his carrot dangling.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 19, 2009, 09:48:39 PM

@tink

I am sorry to hear that , i my self am luckier for now, and the goal is the same for all of us , the time variable will get to us all in time.
I am filed with the same urgency for all my brothers and believe me it will take crazy tough but they are only misunderstood , All is there for the take , there is nothing really new since tesla but no one seems to take time to get it strait.

People are starting to get it, they still don't really know it. (ist Has a 12 fuji circuit mod)

@all

On short terms we should try to get enough power to run a 12v/120v inverter to get some use from those experiment.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 19, 2009, 10:00:35 PM

Timmy,

I do not know how, but I am suree you can feed it back.

a hundred or so pages back there, I was looking at a jt that had finally run a battery down. I happened to be holding the ends of the secondary with both hands. I got a very regular pulse on the lightt. After I had posted this, I held my hands around the probes of my dmm. It declared me to be 0.05V

So, with as little ass 50 millivolts, the jt will pulse in a feedback. I say feedback, because the battery was still in place in the holder feeding its emptiness into the jt,.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 19, 2009, 10:15:42 PM

@ tink

have a better look cuz wate till you see the NEXT PROJECT LOLOLOL

007 SLAYER COIL 8) 8) 8)

IST!

im glad that unit is done for now ....

i will add the next vid link .... when it finishes

slayer ready to build your unit ....

i will start tonight ... 8 coils.... jt 007 ;)

did you polorize your coils in winding or not ?

also i will use heaver gage for the final wind 14 ga .. 22 bifillar

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 19, 2009, 10:20:02 PM

@ist

I think you could try magnets on the 12 coils you got and tune it. ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on January 19, 2009, 10:25:06 PM

@Tink

???
IST is showing and telling us what he is doing.

his last video was 12 joule thieves made with Fujitsu cam like transformer.

the previous thing he was talking was about getting bigger kick, just like in the Tesla patent he mentioned.
not very different then what the jt is doing, just bigger. :)

if you look back in this tread you will see all of those infos.
in separated posts, yes, but there.

if you can't make sense of those infos, you should not play with what he is doing.
you could end up being severely injure and possibly die.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Tink on January 19, 2009, 10:37:14 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on January 19, 2009, 10:25:06 PM
@Tink

???
IST is showing and telling us what he is doing.

his last video was 12 joule thieves made with Fujitsu cam like transformer.

the previous thing he was talking was about getting bigger kick, just like in the Tesla patent he mentioned.
not very different then what the jt is doing, just bigger. :)

if you look back in this tread you will see all of those infos.
in separated posts, yes, but there.

if you can't make sense of those infos, you should not play with what he is doing.
you could end up being severely injure and possibly die.

Okay TheNOP, I will keep on following this thread and just keep silent.
I will not take back what I have said but will lurk as I have done for some 2 years just to keep threads clean.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on January 19, 2009, 11:26:09 PM

Quote from: Tink on January 19, 2009, 10:37:14 PM
Okay TheNOP, I will keep on following this thread and just keep silent.
I will not take back what I have said but will lurk as I have done for some 2 years just to keep threads clean.

i don't want you to keep quiet at all.
your expertise, ideas, could be helpfull.

it is your right to dislike him for his way of posting informations.

@all
here is something very interesting about "not destroying a source(battery) dipoles"
aka "electrons recycling".

some of you will recognize Mr. Stiffler basic schematic.
just replace the electrodes with a load.

the load will see the same potential difference as if it was connected directly to the source.
in commun speak, it can theoricaly double the charge a battery could deliver.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 19, 2009, 11:32:12 PM

@jeanna Re:holding the ends of the secondary with both hands. I got a very regular pulse on the lightt. After I had posted this, I held my hands around the probes of my dmm. It declared me to be 0.05V

you are so HOT !!!!

lol

just trying to break the tension with a little teck funny ;)

hehe

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on January 19, 2009, 11:43:58 PM

becarefull in handling high voltage.
it can kill you with less amps then you think.

never eard of stories of police officers killing peoples with 9 volts battery ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 20, 2009, 12:05:45 AM

All right, the NOP

but I think when one holds either side of a secondary wrapped around a toroid which is powered by a dead battery with no capacitors in sight. One is pretty darn safe!!

The fuji cap flash burned a char spot in my tablecloth last year. That was 300V spark. pow!

I got good jitters from the cap and xenon copper connection. It was not going to kill me even if I did hold one in each hand.
====
@Gadgetmail,

.05 volts. That's nuthin 8)

Last year, I recorded 0.0964v one day. I may have been upset. I don't remember.

(oooo this mac is so easy to type upon. no sticky keys or anything!)

@Bill,
I just watched some of your videos. Good stuff. I didn't realize you shorted the plug.. (where was I?) I will try that with my array thief. the MK1 is the highest.. 36Volts rectified...

What happens if you touch the open wire? or ground it in the ckt? does it go out ?

thanks all. good info today.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 20, 2009, 12:06:10 AM

Quote from: TheNOP on January 19, 2009, 11:26:09 PM
i don't want you to keep quiet at all.
your expertise, ideas, could be helpfull.

it is your right to dislike him for his way of posting informations.

@all
here is something very interesting about "not destroying a source(battery) dipoles"
aka "electrons recycling".

some of you will recognize Mr. Stiffler basic schematic.
just replace the electrodes with a load.

the load will see the same potential difference as if it was connected directly to the source.
in commun speak, it can theoricaly double the charge a battery could deliver.

Is there a schematic for the electrolyzer?

@All

I made a Darlington pair a week or so ago. Has anyone tried making the pair with an NPN and PNP? I've seen that there are advantages and disadvantages to both. That's why I got the PNP. I wanted to try both ways out. Also, the Wikipedia page for the Darlington said that it also worked with more than two transistors. Anyone try three ??? ;D

No, I'm not building a practice amp ;D
I don't need that when I have a Peavey TransTube Supreme half stack ;D 11 years old and it still is louder than anything I've ever touched. Spinal Tap turns it to 11. I turn it to 1. Playing with people who are mic'd, I turn it to 4. Sorry for the off topic tangent ;D
I got that amplifier chip because it was under a dollar and I wanted to see if I could hack it into a JT circuit or Kodak circuit in some fashion to "amplify" if possible.. I figure if it doesn't work, I can always make a radio ;D And, if I fry it, I'm out a dollar ;D

Can someone recommend where to hook both wires from the pickup coil on the JT? Someone said behind the base of the transistor. Do I use the + or -, and where do I put both of them or just skip the rectifier and where do I put both of them? I also have 1k and 100k resistors and a variable resistor to work with. I've been winding this pickup coil on and off for a few evenings now. I'm going to try and finish it tomorrow night. It should put out some juice! I hope! I'm putting as many windings of this wire on there as I can fit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 20, 2009, 12:50:40 AM

@ Abbarue:

I did the test you suggested and scanned the range of the am band. Wait until you see (actually, hear) my next video which is uploading to YT as we speak. In the 7000 KHz range, I encountered something interesting. This was with the toroid JT circuit. You can actually hear it accelerating to a very high frequency. This starts all over again when I switch off the JT and turn it on again.

Actually, I hope everyone can hear this as I think it is telling us something about our circuits.

@ Jeanna:

About my videos, thank you. As to your question if I grounded the "extra" wire on my single wire tests, no I did not. As for did I try touching it to see what happens...yes I did...and I got Zapped again! Zapped with only one wire. Interesting isn't it? I actually tried what you suggested just after I made that video. I was holding my little camera at the time, I am glad it did not get taken out. Check out this next video. I will post it when done uploading. Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 20, 2009, 12:54:09 AM

Here is the link to my latest video. You have to hear this. This reminds me of the sounds a turbine makes when spinning up. Thanks Abbarue for your suggestion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=041LPyBJULs

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 20, 2009, 01:10:41 AM

@jeanna
touchÃ© and OUCH !!! ;D

@all
ok a way to produce something usable from a joule thief . Has anyone tried that electro lizer with a Fugi yet . the reason i am asking is i am going to because i bought this thing cheap and want to use the gas to heat with .. either from the Bedini output or Fugi .. Its all Stainless Steel with Glass Innards and a window to see the bubbles being produced with rubber seals and a thumb screw closer .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 20, 2009, 01:14:23 AM

IST, the video you posted doesn't make sense at all. You are showing the meter reading current and then switch it over to read volts. I have never seen a meter where you can switch between voltage and current without changing the input lead to the meter. Another problem is that you can't be showing both voltage and current since you don't change the location of the probes when you are taking the readings. The current is measured in series with the circuit and the voltage is parallel. Someone with over what is it 150 inventions should know better than this.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 20, 2009, 01:20:24 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 20, 2009, 12:54:09 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=041LPyBJULs
Bill

When I was a kid I'd go to the new jersey shore with my folks, and I always brought my radio. (had to be 8) of course ) The reception was really bad, and I couldn't count on getting anything. But that sound was there all over the place. I think it was the ship to shore or radar . Probably ship to shore tuning in. Just exactly like that.

Who knew they had the joule thief back in the 50's and 60's? ;D

Great to have that on the video, Bill.

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 20, 2009, 01:20:27 AM

For what it is worth, both of my DMMs will switch between amps and volts without unplugging the probe leads or moving them to a different location on the meter.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 20, 2009, 01:27:20 AM

Pirate, I have never seen that before. Can you please let me know the make and model. I would like to check that out.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 20, 2009, 01:28:39 AM

@ Jeanna:

Thank you. I am not sure but I think this means that when we turn our circuits on, the transistor does not instantly begin working at whatever frequency it and the coil wants to. It starts at a much lower frequency and ramps up. The led appears bright, as usual, but I think that is because even at the lower "start-up" frequency of my circuit, it is still much higher than 60 or 70 Hz so my eyes see the LED as "on" anyway.

Yes, maybe that was radar or something like that. There were and maybe still are a lot of research facilities located in that area so god only knows what you were listening to. I miss the Jersey shore, at least the way it used to be.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 20, 2009, 01:29:52 AM

@Mrmag and all My DMM all switch from mili amps to volts . for instance if i want to measure the Ma's from a dead Jt battery i just switch to DCA for Mili amps and then DCV for volts . Its the 10 amp Plug i have to move . IST is Measuring Ma's

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 20, 2009, 01:33:02 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on January 20, 2009, 01:10:41 AM

@all
ok a way to produce something usable from a joule thief . Has anyone tried that electro lizer with a Fugi yet .

As a matter of fact, I have been planning that next. The 42k number keeps being thrown around for the jt with the 1k resistor. I don't know where that information was verified, but I am wanting to use resonance more than amps to make the gas. So, lets find a thread for that... Make a thread for that? I haven't looked for a while, but I don't think there is one.

All electronics has a peizo that resonates at 21k and I have 3 of them on my list. (now that mac is back home, I can buy some things over the net.)

Didn't Freezer have a video with a joule thief toroid style making bubbles? It was linked here in the early pages, I think.

thanks, lets start a thread,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 20, 2009, 01:37:01 AM

MrMag:

One meter is a Craftsman Digital (Model # 82140) and my other one is an Omega, it is out in my van so I don't have the model number handy just now. If they show up, here are 2 pics of my Craftsman DMM. In the one pic, I am testing mA's on my earth battery, and in the other I am testing dc volts. Note the plugs are in the same position on the meter. I hope this helps.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 20, 2009, 01:37:58 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 20, 2009, 01:28:39 AM
It starts at a much lower frequency and ramps up. The led appears bright, as usual, but I think that is because even at the lower "start-up" frequency of my circuit, it is still much higher than 60 or 70 Hz so my eyes see the LED as "on" anyway.

Bill

bill, I distinctly heard it go down first then up past the start place then way up.

I will check again to be sure.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 20, 2009, 01:39:30 AM

@ Jeanna:

Actually, I believe you are correct. I kind of hear a dip in the very beginning as well.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 20, 2009, 01:41:16 AM

@ bill

;D

i just love your little vids lol

indeed quite intresting ... but ....

i got my eye on that SLAYER COIL oops were gonna throw a little gadgetmall in there toooo lol ;)

im gonna take a silly pic of a basic lay out of the IST! 007 SLAYER - GADGET lol

im winding coils NOW......

IST

ps mr maggs..... lol 8 bucks canadian tire been on sale for a year.....

you only swtch as everyone told you ... for 10 amp or readings... im reading miliamps ..... 200 ma sacle

funny 5 hours and my video will not up load lol hummmmmmmmmmm i wonder why lol ::)

GOT YOUR ACE / KING?!?!?!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 20, 2009, 01:48:33 AM

Thanx Pirate, I will have to look at my meters tomorrow. They are probably the same. I am usually reading in the 5-10 amp range, that's probably where I made the mistake. Ooops, sorry about that ;D

But he is still wrong by not changing the location of where he is taking the readings from. Current has to be measured in series and voltage in parallel.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 20, 2009, 01:51:14 AM

IST, yes I realize my mistake. I am very interested how you are reading volts and amps without changing the location of the leads. Can you tell me where you are getting both readings from?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 20, 2009, 01:51:29 AM

@ Jeanna: Ok lets do that .. I will search tomorrow (well it is tomorrow) morning .. (well it is morning 1:47am) after i go to sleep and wake up :)

@pirate . an interesting thing would be to put a varaible resistor in series with the base resistor and see if you can tune it ????? hey ???

ok last post for the Nite i am exhausted and its supposed to SNOW tonight .. For the first time in 3 years here in the Carolinas we are expecting 6 to 8 inches YEA!!!. i love snow my baby girl was born on a snow day ..
Good Work Good People . Nite!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 20, 2009, 02:23:19 AM

oooooooo it getts better yet lol

ace king gets his brothers..... 3 magnets.....in between out put coils on the back side they will be microwave magnets as long as it still self oscolates... when you close it with magnets each end oppisite faceing eachother it kills the osc as i have seen so they will all face same dirrection .... square neos on the inside ... you cant hardly see em ;D

better pic tommorow ..

ist

finally here is the first video

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=R-S-4YO3UbM

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 20, 2009, 05:40:43 AM

@all

http://www.electronics-tutorials.com/basics/toroids.htm

The toroid are color coded like resistance

TYPE COLOR AL Freq. Range

T50-26 Yel-Wh 320uH power freq.
T50-3 Gray 175 50 Khz to 500 Khz
T50-1 Blue 100 500 Khz to 5 Mhz
T50-2 Red 57 2 Mhz to 30 Mhz
T50-6 Yellow 47 10 to 50 Mhz
T50-10 Black 32 30 to 100 Mhz

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 20, 2009, 08:23:27 AM

Thanx for the answer IST. You know it is this kind of thing that pisses people off about you. As soon as you are asked to explain something or supply a wiring diagram you just ignore them or put them down saying that it's not your problem if they can't keep up or understand. I told you that current measurement is taken in series and voltage readings are taken in parallel. Then you come out with a second video taking measurements the same way. You should take a basic electronics course before you post this type of thing. The only thing you are accomplishing is confusing some of the newer unskilled members like yourself. Maybe I should reply the way you do and it will be easier for you to understand.

:) :) :) :) I NO WHAT YOUR DOING RONG :) :) :) :) :) :)

::) ::)BUT I AINT SAYING ::) ::) ::)

8) 8) 8) 8) 8) I did the same thing a looooooooooooong time ago like 2 years ago. My mrmag super duper ou device. it work's I can prove it :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X

:'( :'( :-* :-* :-* :-* :P ::) just build it already. I can't always hold your hand :-X :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 20, 2009, 08:48:10 AM

perhaps it is you that is doing some thing wrong...

lol

both vids were made at the same time

dont take my work for lol ...

DO IT YOUR SELF IT IS SUCH A DARN HARD THING TO GRASP ... IS IT NOT .... THE WORKINGS OF A CAM FLASH.,... ::) ::) :P

to tell me im doing something wrong.... hummm WHEN I HAVE YET TO SEE 1 PEICE OF YOUR WORK........

AND WHEN I BUILD THE NEXT UNIT IN FRONT OF YOUR EYES ...

YOU WILL THEN HAVE SOME LAME EXCUSE... LOL

HOW I DID IT WORNG ...

BACK TO SLEEP LITTLE SHEEP ...

i aint hear to SPOON FEED YOU ....

DID YOU READ 1 WORD OF THIS THRED ... ?? HAVE YOU BUILT A JT?? DO U UNDERSTAND HOW AND WHY IT WORKS ... LOL

NO YOU DO NOT CUZ IF YOU DID ... YOU WOULD SHUT YOUR MOUTH ... THE KICK .... AND HOW IT IS NOT RECIEVIED ...I MUST LAUGH AT YOU ...

good bye ... MRMAGGS....

WHAT I OFFER IS NOT INTENDED FOR PEOPLE LIKE YOU .....

however the good dont get it unless the bad have it ..

aint that the way it goes ...

btw i dont want to hold your hand mr maggs .... i tryed to fill you in like 2 years ago there bouts same old sh!t from you ....

a dumb construction worker figures it out in RECORD TIME ... when a bunch of highly trainded people get lost in the process ...

i do understand how this could piss you off lol ;D

i have my grade 9 lol ;D and why is this my fault you took a detour...

i have many things ou ... but how did i get them 8) 000OOOooo yea I WORKED AT IT ....... HUMMM now that is another challange for most to stick to something till you figure it out ....

any how

SORRY TO EVERY ONE WHO MUST READ THIS ... YOU CAN THANK MRMAGGS...

ist!

SO NOW YOU SAY MY CURRENT READINS ARE WRONG LOL IT IS A DEAD SHORT DUH!!!!!

and you may actually be correct .... IF WE WERE DEALING WITH KNOWEN ELECTRICTY .....HOWEVER WE ARE NOT!!!!

yes this is the CORRECT OUT PUT SETTINGS .... OF MY UNIT

go buy a disposable cam ..... and take your OWN READINGS... not a costly experience or a big job to do mrmaggs...

got 10 min and 5 bucks.....

then when you know .........you can stop argueing ......

what a surprise mrmaggs has ou .... who did you copy?? lol

so you got what you looked for .... great but do you have what REALLY MATTERS ...... THE UNDERSTANDING I CAN SAY NO U DO NOT ...

NOW HOW CAN I SAY THIS..... ;)

is it time for another history lesson??

need A LITTLE BIT OF RED? 8)

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=-F78yp9urz4

COME HERE IM GONNA SMEAR ANOTHER COLOUR OVER YOU!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on January 20, 2009, 09:28:36 AM

Here is a video of a little joule theif with a transformer attached to it.
You can allso add more coils or transformers to it.

This can allso be done with the big joule theif. ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkAlPWw3DKI&feature=channel_page

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 20, 2009, 09:39:01 AM

Quote from: slayer007 on January 20, 2009, 09:28:36 AM
Here is a video of a little joule theif with a transformer attached to it.
You can allso add more coils or transformers to it.

This can allso be done with the big joule theif. ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkAlPWw3DKI&feature=channel_page

NICE

im gonna start the build today i had to rewind off my spool of 22 ga 2 spools .... all ready to go

did you polorize your coils ? i wound many ac coils ... but i found polorized is better wich i will explain why it is so ...

but i want to dup your work .... the same ... as you have done ...

and i will have time to chat with you today slayer007

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 20, 2009, 09:44:25 AM

Exactly the reply I was expecting.

As a matter of fact, yes I have built a couple of Joule thiefs. My results were not any better than most on here. As a matter of fact others have had better results then myself. So why should I post it?
Anyways, why do you need to see my work for me to tell you that you are not making the proper readings. This is basic electronics/electricity.

You really don't like to be questioned on your posts. When you get a question or request, you can't answer it intelligently so you come up with your "Spoon feed you" crap. The sooner these people figure you out the better.

You probably went to a different collage than I did for my electronics training. Of course I did go there over 30 years ago. I have been in the electronics field for a long time. I was also in the engineering department of a major company and I was in charge of the instrumentation/automation and new technologies that came in. I've worked on vision systems, x-ray machines and quite a few other systems that were new breaking technologies at the time.

But, I guess your grade 8 education trumps that. Idiot...........

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on January 20, 2009, 09:49:07 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 20, 2009, 09:39:01 AM
NICE

im gonna start the build today i had to rewind off my spool of 22 ga 2 spools .... all ready to go

did you polorize your coils ? i wound many ac coils ... but i found polorized is better wich i will explain why it is so ...

but i want to dup your work .... the same ... as you have done ...

and i will have time to chat with you today slayer007

ist!

@ IST

To be honest I'm not sure what you mean by polorized.

The coil shown in the video was wound counter clock wise with a layer of masking tape in between each layer.
It helps to insolate and makes it easer to wind the next layer.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 20, 2009, 09:57:30 AM

Quote from: MrMag on January 20, 2009, 09:44:25 AM
Exactly the reply I was expecting.

As a matter of fact, yes I have built a couple of Joule thiefs. My results were not any better than most on here. As a matter of fact others have had better results then myself. So why should I post it?
Anyways, why do you need to see my work for me to tell you that you are not making the proper readings. This is basic electronics/electricity.

You really don't like to be questioned on your posts. When you get a question or request, you can't answer it intelligently so you come up with your "Spoon feed you" crap. The sooner these people figure you out the better.

You probably went to a different collage than I did for my electronics training. Of course I did go there over 30 years ago. I have been in the electronics field for a long time. I was also in the engineering department of a major company and I was in charge of the instrumentation/automation and new technologies that came in. I've worked on vision systems, x-ray machines and quite a few other systems that were new breaking technologies at the time.

But, I guess your grade 8 education trumps that. Idiot...........

lol

fool if you only knew a few things.... lol im not hear to teach you ...

there is your problem in red ....

also you say you live when tesla invented thease NEW TECKS... LOL u really suck sorry to break it to ya!!

ah!! you built a few.... lol but did u understand them .... NO YOU DID NOT!!

serously im done with you .....

i have no time for your kind ...

william!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on January 20, 2009, 09:58:55 AM

@timmy1729
http://www.stifflerscientific.com/
look for the CRE - Charge Recycle Electrolyzer page
between collector an emitter

@gadgetmall
"Has anyone tried that electro lizer with a Fugi yet"

not with a fuji, but with a comparable output jt yes.
not much gas output.
not supprising considering the amps

@MrMag
series/parallel...
what when your meter is the load, how should you hook it up to read series/parallel ?

gosh..., this tread is really going fast... :o

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 20, 2009, 10:02:28 AM

Quote from: slayer007 on January 20, 2009, 09:49:07 AM

@ IST

To be honest I'm not sure what you mean by polorized.

The coil shown in the video was wound counter clock wise with a layer of masking tape in between each layer.
It helps to insolate and makes it easer to wind the next layer.

ok

what i mean by polorize the coil is this ....

wind 1 layer in 1 dirrection tape the layer ... then bring it back to the same place as where you started ... and wind another identical layer above the last and the wire you brought back

muller stuff here .... and many others use this method ... this will cause the feilds to go to eather ends ... an ac coil is wound back and forth ..... this is wound all from 1 side ...

if you need more info i will post build pics of the coils ...

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 20, 2009, 10:12:39 AM

_{lol

fool if you only knew a few things.... lol im not hear to teach you ...

there is your problem in red ....

also you say you live when tesla invented thease NEW TECKS... LOL u really suck sorry to break it to ya!!}

Who said I lived when Tesla did or that Tesla invented these. You can't add or subtract either hahahahah. You should also show some respect Tesla should have a capital T

_{ah!! you built a few.... lol but did u understand them .... NO YOU DID NOT!!}

IST, if you remember a few pages back, I told you how I think it works. Then I asked you how you thought it works. Did you reply, no. Who doesn't know Willy?

_{serously im done with you .....

i have no time for your kind ...}

Sorry, but I do have time for you. You see what I don't like is disinformation. You like to brag how you are smarter than everyone else yet you have never shown any information. Have you ever shown a schematic or given input and output results, no. But if anyone asks for them you try to put them down. You are way to much into yourself. Stephan should have left the Karma rating on. Funny how you stopped posting during the time he had it on. Now that he disabled it, you back to you old crap again. 150 inventions and they are all useless.

Tink is right and I'm sure there are a lot of others that also agree. I hope the legit posters figure you out. I do see that some have since they ignore your posts and maybe that is what I should do but like I said. I do not like disinformation. You are confusing people with your crap posts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on January 20, 2009, 10:17:46 AM

No on this coil I didn't

I have tried it with other coils on my old first pulse motor I made the coils were this way.
The coils were funnel shaped.

I would like to try that way agine but I dont have the time to wind another coil right now.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 20, 2009, 10:21:19 AM

MRMAGGS PUT UP OR SHUT UP! STRIGHT UP!!

i am building EVERYTHING .... LOL ...

if you can not see that your blind ....

im building what i SAY in front of you posting PROOF .... 8)

yet you fail to build and prove it to yourself ....

agin not my problem ...

THE TRUTH REMAINS THE SAME ;D

if i have made mistakes im only human .... we all make mistakes it is the wize that learn from them .... :)

so im sure if i have mistaken i will be corrected ;)

lol

now can i please build something ........ ::)

slayer007

i will build all my coils polorized ... and there are a bunch .... but it i think it is best we do it this way i will explain as i go why ..and anyone that knows feel free to jump in ...this IS OUR SHOW.... meaning everyones.....

the reason for polorized coils is well a few actually ... 1 the main 1 is this ....

WHEN I APPLY A MAGNET OR AN ELECRTO MAGNET TO THE PULSE COIL AT 90DEG ..... THINGS HAPPIN..... 8)

IST!
MR MAG ... IF I TOLD YOU THE REAL REASON I STOPED POSTING .... LOL AND WHY IM POSTING AGIN ...... YOU WOULD THANK ME !!!! I LEAVE IT THERE ....

SOON LETS SAY I CANT TALK ABOUT IT ...... DUH!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 20, 2009, 10:31:42 AM

NOP, you should not use your meter as a load. It is not designed to do this. You should place a resister across the output of the device and measure the voltage across the resister. Then, to get your current reading place the meter leads between one of the outputs and one leg of the resister.

When I say resister I guess I should have said a resistive load, a light bulb or possibly LED would work.

I am also glad to see that you people are putting bridge rectifiers on the output. I am sure it has been mentioned but most of these meters are designed to work in the 50-60Hz range. The pulsed DC on the output will give erroneous reading when in the AC range due to the high frequency of the pulse. If you want to get accurate readings on the output, a scope is the only way to go.

I hope this helped.

Tim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 20, 2009, 10:39:49 AM

thank you tim!!!

it has helped and i really apreciate your your advice ...

you all know i have 0 electronics skills .... hence the timely .. build adventures i have had .... lol

so you have a great deal of skills ...

well lets get er done ... then im easy to get along with .... dont piss me off tho ;D

lol

ist

coffee then to work i go .... 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 20, 2009, 10:53:08 AM

Modified

Thanx IS, you need to think before you post some things.

Some of the people here do follow what you are doing even though you might think that they don't.
I am just bothered that some of the people that have just started or have a limited knowledge in electronics might get the wrong idea.
But keep on doing your thing. I don't know anyone else who has built sooooooo much.
Good or bad results, I think most people are learning something.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: mdmiller on January 20, 2009, 11:16:43 AM

As a general rule there is a lot of inspiration and ideas here which I sincerely appreciate and I'm diligently trying different JT coil winds and circuits.

I'm trying to learn to fish.

Unfortunately the teachers are in the back of the boat squabbling over the bait and tackle, while I'm trying to learn different methods on how to tie the hook.

gents -- please take the bickering off line, can we resume the JT adventure, my fish sonar is showing some big ones up ahead on starboard. We are all grateful for the lessons.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 20, 2009, 11:35:43 AM

Quote from: mdmiller on January 20, 2009, 11:16:43 AM
As a general rule there is a lot of inspiration and ideas here which I sincerely appreciate and I'm diligently trying different JT coil winds and circuits.

I'm trying to learn to fish.

Unfortunately the teachers are in the back of the boat squabbling over the bait and tackle, while I'm trying to learn different methods on how to tie the hook.

gents -- please take the bickering off line, can we resume the JT adventure, my fish sonar is showing some big ones up ahead on starboard. We are all grateful for the lessons.

now you are an awsome dude 8)

lol

ok tim

lets take another aproch to my mesurements ... let us ask why ? i can mesure current the way i am ... is this a normal thing ?

it looks to me as through put ... :)

and when hooked up like that things get hot ... a little power over a long time ..... or a lot of power over a short time .... ;D

anyhow i must wind now ...

sheesh i need to pick up my feet im slacking already .... :)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 20, 2009, 11:38:47 AM

@all

There are good videos done, there are good circuits shown and there is a good disposition to learn.
Please argue outside of this topic.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 20, 2009, 11:53:56 AM

@jeanna
Hi theres lots of hho threads but i dont see one for Jule thief everything is current and amps no resonate or fugi . Could you please Figure out where we should start this Thread and Name it Please ?

@All
Here are a few of My colored toroids. I know there had to be a table somewhere . thank you Mk1 !
those little high voltage boards i got from goldmine DO work at 1 volt . I saw several hundred pages ago where some one bought the same module and could not get it to run off 1.5 mine work great . they are 5 volt modules cheap and speaking of BIG fish have a look !!
.. That big toroid came from a monster bunch of wire wrapped around it . It took days to unwind it .. Look at the Little Bitty one on the Dime :) I need more wire so as soon as that Beautiful SNOW stops i Might go to my Local Military Scrap yard and grab some formers and break em apart ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 20, 2009, 12:54:33 PM

Quote from: slayer007 on January 20, 2009, 09:28:36 AM
Here is a video of a little joule theif with a transformer attached to it.
You can allso add more coils or transformers to it.

This can allso be done with the big joule theif. ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkAlPWw3DKI&feature=channel_page

i have 8 mots we could use on the big unit ... off of the piggy back pick up coils all 4 x 8 of em or for now i will keep it in its simplest form ....

your exact unit but polorized coils .. then we add to it ;)

ist!

coil pic ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 20, 2009, 01:08:09 PM

@ Gadgetmall:

Just for your information, I read that the "colored" toroids are not ferrite, they are powdered iron. Does that really make a difference to us? I don't know. In the several power supplies I took apart, they used both the ferrite cores and the powdered iron cores. I guess it has to do with what MK 1 said a long way back, they all have different properties and when they design a circuit, they pick the one with the properties they need. I have a green powdered iron toroid I got from a cfl board. When I can get some more transistors, I will make a JT and see if it seems to work the same. Hey, if I use the same wire, and the same wraps as my other one (in the radio tests) and the same transistor and resistor, I can repeat my radio test and see if it has the same sound, or different. I can compare them this way. I really wish I had a scope.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 20, 2009, 01:30:15 PM

@ All:

While waiting for my shipment from Electronics Goldmine (solar cells, ferrite toroids, etc) which is due in tomorrow, I had another thought. Besides attempting to run the JT from my earth battery to light some stuff, I was thinking of building one of those small turbine style wind generators made from a 2 liter bottle. Since the wind still blows at night and it takes very little wind to turn these units quite fast, I was thinking that if I can get the base 1.5 vdc from it to run the JT, I can have outside lights powered by the wind also. Just another idea. I wish I had more time and more money. Great work here everyone.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 20, 2009, 01:51:04 PM

@Pirate
If those meters you showed a few post back were showing your Earth battery out put then there is no way they won't run several Jts . Im running 2 NOW and my volts is only 1.08 current 1ma .they are lit now even covered in snow .(the electrodes not the circuits _there in the house :) Have you tried using a capacitor across the input ??

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 20, 2009, 02:01:22 PM

@ Gadgetmall:

Those shots were taken well over a year ago in the beginning of my experiments with the earth battery. I would have to dig out my numbers but I believe I was up to 2.2 vdc and about 80 mA's. Still a little light in the mA's area to match up to an AA battery. I remember the 2.2 vdc number because a lot of folks told me this was just a galvanic reaction. Well, if that was all it was the limit would be, as we know, 1.5 vdc.

Once the ground thaws out a bit here, I am going to test the JT on it first thing. I put a supercap in series with the led but that is all I had done with a cap in those experiments. It charged the cap while lighting the led and then, I could remove them from the earth battery and take the led inside where it would remain lit for several hours.

I hope to use my new 10F supercaps in a similar manner with both the earth battery, and my solar cells. (2 different experiments)

You beat me to it by hooking the JT to your earth battery. Great job though, I was confident it would work. some of my electrical friends told me JT's only work with batteries but when I made the video showing one operating from a supercap, well, I knew they were wrong and the earth battery should work also. And, you proved it did. Great job!

I studied the earth battery quite a bit last year and I believe I can help you get your volts and power up. PM me if I can be of service in any way. This is going to be a fun spring isn't it?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 20, 2009, 02:28:28 PM

@ All

Remember that the jt circuit can be made with any 3 coil transformer. this unit gives me 80 volts dc, but the ridiculous claim is that you can charge a cap to over 120 volts with it! Please try, it work better than bouncing a jt to a transformer, when i did because i tried it gave me about the same , but the caps did not charge as fast.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 20, 2009, 02:39:49 PM

@mk1

your quick bro 8)

no joke ... errrrrr putting on the breaks .... lol

i like your style .... but this then goes to my HEMF TRANSFORMER ..... please not yet!!! lol

im still tripping round stones here .... ;)

almost done the first pulse coil on my 6th layer ... that will be 240 turns bifiller

i will post construction pics as i finish it ... i dont think i will make the full 450 turns as i need room for my gen coil ... we will see

there is a balance thing when we get to fromers .... :) and a freq thing ...

ist!

to HAVE THE MOST EFFICIENT THING :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 20, 2009, 02:44:59 PM

@ist

I posted that back in December, this is just a reminder, ;D, yep that fast. :o

Thanks again for your work!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on January 20, 2009, 02:46:12 PM

@pirate

ill let you know a little secret that looks like someone else has found as well. look at the laws of eddy currents,. eddy currents is basically an air brake, if there is no eddy (and no iron) in the generator then there will be no resistance! make a custom generator with no iron when you do the windmill and on the output before you do anything with the output tie it directly to a capacitor using a diode to prevent the generator from becoming a motor! this will eliminate eddy currents and practically all resistance except from the mechanical joints.

on a side note can someone please invent the magnetic ball bearing so we can eleminate friction all together!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 20, 2009, 02:50:29 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 20, 2009, 02:44:59 PM
@ist

I posted that back in December, this is just a reminder, ;D, yep that fast. :o

Thanks again for your work!

you are verry welcome ...

im glad people can learn from what i have done ... this is why i share .. :)

ist!

lol now that you say that Artic lol

you need to see my floting magnet generator .... sys lol

it is a magnet floating on another magnet thus eliminiting friction 8) i have put a 10lb copper disc .5 " thick x 7.75 " it holds that fine even when spun ;D low speed of course and ...... you need verry little input to turn it ... and also when it is wound up ... lol

well im sure you get the idea .... ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 20, 2009, 02:51:16 PM

@artic_knight

I got some magnetic gears , i made some discoveries that phi and golden geometry is a way to calculate, magnetic friction. gears you can't see,that's some type of god power! And i love ed(dy) current.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 20, 2009, 02:58:26 PM

mk1 you really crack me up lol..... ;D

how do they work ;D

did the magnetic gear thing too 8)

lol

ist

this is a kool unit ... here you see my magic bearing .... just used diffrently ;)

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=2414.0

my magnetic gear idea ...

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=2180.0

still looking for my magic bearing

Re: the most efficient machine ever built
Â« Reply #115 on: March 26, 2007, 05:42:06 PM Â»

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=1977.110

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 20, 2009, 03:07:24 PM

@ist

Its all in the angles , the only friction my gears have is magnetic and works at great speed , this is back when a was working on my Bedini project, I used small dc brush motor as generator for my magnetic wheel , if you place them in the right geometry it just files , the wheel gose to fast for the motor , they are better generator at lower speed , but the math's are there since the beginning of time , some say golden means
god, then something unseen like magnetic force, eddy current, things not all can see. But that deserves its own topic.

Edit:Utron and pyramids are alike, you will get the answer.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 20, 2009, 04:35:49 PM

slayer 007 coil polorized coil pics

ist

i stoped at 9 layers... 360 turns

so i guess its on to the generator coil .... /pickup /transformer coil 8)

i was thinking 14ag 3 layers non polorized ........ meaning back and forth ......

as i understand the MASS should be close ..... not right on but close .. it may not matter in this unit the way it will be hooked up ......

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: AbbaRue on January 20, 2009, 05:28:06 PM

@All
When taking measurements remember that voltage is read in parallel with the output.
But when measuring Current you need to place some known load across the output and place your
meter in series to measure the current the load is drawing.
If you charge a capacitor you could have thousands of amps across the output.
If you place your meter across it set at mA. you will blow the fuse inside the meter and have to replace the fuse.
The only reason some here have been able to measure the current across the output is
because it was to low to blow the fuse in the meter. So you could measure say 80mA on the 200ma setting.

So if the voltage output measures 400 volts, using a 2k ohm resistor across the output should give you 200mA.
400/2000 = 0.200 amps or 200mA.
But use that to charge a capacitor and you could have 400 volts at 100 amps.
Charging a 2200 uF 400 volt cap off a joule thief circuit and then
connecting a 120 volt 100 watt bulb to the capacitor could burn out the 100 watt bulb never mind your meter.

I hope no one smells burning wire from there meter. ;D
If you touch the 2 leads of that charged capacitor it could kill you
So check the voltage across it before setting it aside, wouldn't want to fry your child or your pet.
IF you do a lot of experimenting with charged caps like this it would be very useful to
solder up 4 or 5 light bulbs in series and use them to discharge your capacitor before putting it away.

@IST
In the video you made on the last page you fried the fuse in your meter when you set it to mA,
that is why you didn't get a reading. Just open the meter and replace the fuse and you should be up and running again.
The reason it didn't fry the fuse on the previous video is because the milliamps were low enough for the meter to handle.
Don't feel bad I have blown quite a few meter fuses myself.
In fact I still need to replace it in one of my meters. This is always the plague of electronics, measuring current.
Voltage is no problem if you go over you just see the overflow error on the display,
but go over on the mA scale and poooofff!! time to get another fuse.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 20, 2009, 05:41:15 PM

thank you abba

as always good words from you :)

and wize i might add....

well guys i got the 007 done ....

i put 4 layers of 14 ga insted of 3 it just kinda fit lol..... 30 turns per layer x4 layers hummmmmm 120 turns ..... gen coil 360 turns pulse coil ....

just funny how that worked out lol :)

ist!

darn close to equal mass too no way ...... could i have planned this better ??? ;)

;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 20, 2009, 06:01:47 PM

so now what ..... piggy back coil ....

gadget you round bro ....

you think same gage ... or some other gage i have 14 22 28 gages to choose from also miles of bifillar speeker wire in many gages ..

ideas ...

ist!

BTW my last pic is my coil head finger puppet ... lol he just needs some IRON as his core ..... or well really that is up to the BUILDERS ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 20, 2009, 06:09:48 PM

@IST
William that is one Perty COil you have there . it put My scrap xformer coil to SHAME! HEHE ;D. No really that is nice winding man . You must of course have some helping hand there or at least a coil winder?? ???
Killer thought i gotta admit ;D when you do something it is done right .. Lets hook er up to the Slayer and see what shes made of and Yes the piggy back coil looks to be FINE THIN WIRE ,,MILES OF IT 32 -34 somewhere in there you can put some rods in the center with some extra hanging off the back and build a test piggy back coil to shove on back of that with some extra single wound clockwise wire ,put a bridge and then a cap and there you have another 100 200 400 extra volts and no telling how many amps you will have now that you polarized it , to play with !! With just My Measly setup i light a 130 volt filament bulb with a neon parallel to it to keep the cap from blowing my face off !! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRnYQvYEwkM
Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 20, 2009, 06:23:20 PM

gadget bro ;D

all my stuff all of it ......is by HAND 8)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 20, 2009, 06:51:48 PM

@all

With all the radio experiment with jt , we clearly see that there is one other element to work with, if we could build a small am radio and tune them to work together , it could be plausibly that some small caps can be charged.Then the limits are again redefined.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on January 20, 2009, 07:05:05 PM

"When taking measurements remember that voltage is read in parallel with the output."

yep, 2 ways to measure a circuit and both can give different reading.
in parallel with a load and without a load

"But when measuring Current you need to place some known load across the output and place your
meter in series to measure the current the load is drawing."

this way you get the current passing trug the load, not the max current available from the source.

a load (shunt) is not a necessity if your meter can read the anticipated amps without frying.
a meter have shunts, one for each scale your meter have.
if you know there will be big amps, get an inductive meter.

one advice.
the first thing we are teach in electronic courses on how to use a multimeter is to go from highest scale to a lower, if needed.
but do not change function(volts/amps/ohms) of your meter while it is connected to a live circuit it is a sure way to fry it.

a think about eddy current.
what if we try to take advantage of it instead of trying to suppress it...
sure, it depends on what we try to do and what would be the benefit/inconvenient.

Edit:
caps measurements is something completly different and the example given is not really a good one for that reason.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 20, 2009, 07:07:02 PM

@TheNOP

Now you are taking, i have been waiting.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 20, 2009, 07:25:53 PM

One problem you will encounter down the road is that most multimeters don't handle highfrequency well. Some radio people may know a scource for meters that measure this but I believe everything is measured in decibels.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on January 20, 2009, 07:27:55 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 20, 2009, 07:07:02 PM
@TheNOP

Now you are taking, i have been waiting.

sorry. :-[

i am a slow typer and often get distracted with family matters.
also add to my deffence that english is not my primary language. ;)

i hope we are finished with the basic electronic lecture.
links to those kind of things were given in the begining of this tread.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on January 20, 2009, 07:34:54 PM

Quote from: sparks on January 20, 2009, 07:25:53 PM
One problem you will encounter down the road is that most multimeters don't handle highfrequency well. Some radio people may know a scource for meters that measure this but I believe everything is measured in decibels.

we know that sparks, a lots of peoples on this forum know that.
but the thing is peoples are using the tools they have or should i say use the tools they can afford at present time.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 20, 2009, 07:37:52 PM

@TheNOP

I am French (ok, bilingual a good Canadian)my self, all i mean is its about time somebody said that, And now people maybe are ready to listen.The world we live in makes us see the opposite of what is said or written , it's just a mater of view.I am happy you did, i did not have the balls . ;D

Mark , thanks for being here Nop

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 20, 2009, 07:56:02 PM

I'm trying to figure out a cheap wattmeter guys believe me. Some kinda homemade wheatstone bridge vumeter or something.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 20, 2009, 08:08:24 PM

@ Sparks:

Electronics goldmine has a watt meter on sale for $19.00. I was going to ask folks on here if this would be handy to have for our tests. It is a Simpson (good name) panel mount meter and if you go to their site you can find it, sorry I just got in from work and did not post a link. You can probably make one for less but, this does not seem like a bad price to me.

@ All:

I will try to respond to the many other posts after I get something to eat as I have not eaten all day. Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 20, 2009, 08:09:11 PM

Sparks, I agree with you there. A scope is the best way to take voltage measurements from this circuit. I also think your right regarding the dB meter. Another possibly more accurate voltage measurement would be an old tube type analog meter. They have about 10Meg input impedance and I'm not sure but I don't think they would be effected by frequency as much as the digital meters. You could probably pick one up at a flea market pretty reasonably. I think I still have one laying around. I guess it's time to do some tests to compare readings from analog, digital and scope.

NOP, the circuit needs to be broken and the meter needs to be in series, period. All of the current needs to go through the meter to get a proper reading. The shunt in the meter is used for the meter to get it's reading from.
In a parallel circuit the voltage across the branches of the parallel circuit are the same. What is different is the current. To get the total current, you add up the currents flowing through each branch. This is why the meter needs to be placed in series and not in parallel.

Sorry to keep harping on this but if these measurement basics are not followed, your results will not be right.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 20, 2009, 08:12:46 PM

@Mk1
You Definably know more about Magnetics than i do . Am i not using Eddy Currents in My Piggyback coil to get the overunity i get ? From the welding rods i mean . I don't have them glued or coated and i get very high magnetic effects from the rear of My coil .I didn't follow Bedini's instruction like he said to the letter . i used variables and what i had .I ended up with purring kitten that is soothing to my ear . It runs no matter what. Short of the battery frying . I know its off topic But i think it could be Valuable information . kinda like winding a joule thief on welding rods ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on January 20, 2009, 08:26:02 PM

" One problem you will encounter down the road is that most multimeters don't handle highfrequency well. Some radio people may know a scource for meters that measure this but I believe everything is measured in decibels. "

That info will save me some mis-steps down the road when I'm ready to start throwing something together...thanks.

Great spirit of egoless sharing going on here.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 20, 2009, 08:29:39 PM

@ gadgetmall ..... ;D

you do have 2 of every gadget knowen to man lol 8)

i see your point tim

i have an old tube style scope.... i might hook it up but it would be better if you would join in the fun ....

and offer your experienced skills to the goal....

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 20, 2009, 08:54:35 PM

@gadgetmall

Its all the same your rod are under magnetic influence of the electric flow, When that flow is cut from dc (not ac)You get hemf (bemf) that induces the core (the shape dose not mater, its just geometry) That hemf manifest it self violently , creating i implosion effect inside the coil and core (high negative spike) on voltmeter , magnetic waves(eddy current is emitted) that can be pickups by radio or nearby core, we can also hear it at some freq.
Every forum of energetic nature are working with that same and simple thing , call it like you will , you need magnetic to get electricity(except some heat conversion system (including solar) or galvanic(its all we really need,Via Bagdad). To get the picture think no look at it in action http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=X-hBMyaigqI.The air hole created imploded the bottom of the beer bottle. That same reaction is created in the coil , and manifest it self in many ways.

I hope it made some sense , sure not,but that another story .

We just need some new ways of seeing things.(or 100 years old way would do)

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 20, 2009, 08:59:56 PM

MrMag:

Thank you for your explanation on what would be "basic electronics" to some, but to me it is essential to know this stuff. I have learned a lot on here since the topic started. I have been reading electronics books left and right, and listening to you guys explain stuff and also watching videos on electronics done by MIT professor Walter Lewin. I am advanced in some areas but also find that I do not know some things that even basic electronics courses would teach. I thank you, and all of the guys here that know more than I do, which right now, might be most of them, for sharing your info.

I have 5 electronics books but not one of them speaks of supercaps as I guess these are newer than my books. Also, none of them mention the joule thief circuit even though they brush on the principle when speaking of induction coils. (very little) I was taught by my Dad that the key to learning is to know what you know, but also know what you do not know and to not be embarrassed to admit that you do not know something. A famous quote from Albert Einstein is an answer to a question ( I don't know the question) in which he said....."I don't know." If a guy like that can admit that, I guess I can also.

@ All:

Just a reminder that since our topic is so successful (read, long) there are folks coming in here that may go back 10 or 20 pages but have not read it all from the beginning and I have no problem with folks reposting something that was discussed on page 5, if it is relevant to what we are doing presently. Heck, I have gone back 2 times and started over reading this topic and you would not believe the important stuff I had missed. Probably this was because I was not at a certain stage where I needed that info, and now, I am and it is all there, just hard to find.

So, once again I wanted to thank each and every one of you for your spirit of cooperation and sharing information that will help all of us. Thank you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on January 20, 2009, 09:28:00 PM

Quote from: MrMag on January 20, 2009, 08:09:11 PM
NOP, the circuit needs to be broken and the meter needs to be in series, period. All of the current needs to go through the meter to get a proper reading. The shunt in the meter is used for the meter to get it's reading from.
In a parallel circuit the voltage across the branches of the parallel circuit are the same. What is different is the current. To get the total current, you add up the currents flowing through each branch. This is why the meter needs to be placed in series and not in parallel.

Sorry to keep harping on this but if these measurement basics are not followed, your results will not be right.

i agree completely with what you are saying and i have say exactly the same.

what i was pointing out is the faq that IST was trying to measure the total amps output capability of his JTs

when there is no load, dead short condition, what is parallel and what is series.

examples:
how would you hook your ampmeter to check the max current output of a AA battery ?
would you have to change probe emplacement to read volts ?

those are not questions for you, they are just an examples.

but here a question for you.
can we get over it and continue experimenting with jt ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 20, 2009, 09:29:33 PM

IST,

I'm on it already. I went out to the shop to look for that VTVM that I thought I had. I do have some analog meters. I am going to fire up one of the joule thiefs and see the different readings I get. YOU HAVE A SCOPE AND YOU DON'T USE IT. For shame. If you need info on it, PM me.

Pirate,

Very glad to help out. I have seen many varying results and I think some of it may be due to the method of measurement. I will try to report back with my results very soon. It's been a very long time since I was into basics. This is also a good exercise for me to brush up on my electronics. Get those old brain cells that I fried in college back up and running again.

P.S. I don't know is one of my favorite sayings. Someone said once that a smart person is not always the one who knows the answer but he knows where to find it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 20, 2009, 09:33:21 PM

@ MK1

how many coils .... 6 in a ring ? 8 ? you say geromerty ... i do agree ...

you pick the # of coils .....

im done my second now i will finish em all tonight .... just the main coils ...

but i need to know how many you think will work best ;D

ist!

WELCOME ABOARD MR MAGS.... ;D ;D ;D

im glad you came around you are needed ..... as we all are :)

and im sorry for being an a$$ lol

but i can be that way some times :)

i dont use my scope for this any more ..... to close to blowing it ... i only use it for small power things ;D

i have had spikes so far of my scope it was wild ....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 20, 2009, 09:36:22 PM

@ist

We live in a 12 based world , 24 pole , the fun is hooking them up !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 20, 2009, 09:44:08 PM

mk1

come on NOW ..... SHEESH NOW YOU WANT MY ANTI GRAVITY ..... lol

slow down bro ...... ;D

whats next the T PORTOR ...... ;) lol jk ....

12 is an excelant # ....... but were only comeing up to second base ....

we have not hit it home yet :)

how about 6..... if you must have 12 .... well then so be it :)

but it will take me a few days longer .....

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 20, 2009, 09:44:32 PM

@all

I was thinking to different types of material used for coil, combining them may give us really interesting result when connected in parallel , the pulse timing is the same but at different resistance load(same number of turns, It may do bigger work.

Crazy enough.

Mark

@ist

6 will be enough for now, but only 3 in series per side the opposite one in the middle reverse polarity , should do for now, but you will need a antenna.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 20, 2009, 09:48:37 PM

iron garden wire too ..... lol

you are nuts!!!!! ;D

lol

i do mean that in the BEST WAY BRO 8)

william

i like 12 better ;D

i will check to see if i have enough materials .. if so it a go ....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 20, 2009, 09:51:57 PM

@ist

Right back at you! ::)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 20, 2009, 09:51:56 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 20, 2009, 09:44:32 PM
@all

I was thinking to different types of material used for coil, combining them may give us really interesting result when connected in parallel , the pulse timing is the same but at different resistance load(same number of turns, It may do bigger work.

Crazy enough.

Mark

@ Mark:

I think I see where you are going with this. I wonder what would happen if one of the coils involved had an air core? Maybe not the first one but maybe the 2nd or third? Who the heck knows what we might get? Copper, then iron, then air. 3 coils, 1 transistor.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: amigo on January 20, 2009, 10:13:54 PM

It is very hard to follow this thread, there's 10 pages of posts a day containing mostly ramblings or vicious personal attacks. A few good bits here and there but scarce...

I know some might say that the creative process is chaotic at times, but please, how 'bout some coherence?

Anyway, would someone please explain to me why is there now a capacitor hooked to the JT all of a sudden? What is the goal with it?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 20, 2009, 10:20:50 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 20, 2009, 09:44:32 PM
@all

I was thinking to different types of material used for coil, combining them may give us really interesting result when connected in parallel , the pulse timing is the same but at different resistance load(same number of turns, It may do bigger work.

Crazy enough.

Mark

Not crazy at all.
I put my stubblefield generators on the shelf last spring.

When this thread was going for about 3 weeks, I thought I'd bring them out again.

But, the thing is mark, this is what Nathan Stubblefield (NS) did. He had one copper wire wound bifilar with 1 soft iron wire. In the end he kept 2 ends up in the air?? for unidentified reasons, then without explaining how, he acknowledged that how you connect the wires is very important, and then he wrapped a secondary around the whole thing. It was the secondary that did the work.

Oh, of course, the thing was also cleverly set up to be its own battery.

As I see it, He was making a joule thief. He had discovered what we are discovering now.

Let's carry on with this. I think the value of the 2 wires is twofold, one to produce the galvanic action of the battery which we may or may not need as he did it, and 2, to provide 2 different resistances for some kind of bias. He had a switch of some kind but didn't describe it.

He was shown using 2 units connected in the middle with a telephone.( I think the switch was there.)

Personally, I think it is all here in this jt that we are making.

Not crazy at all.

jeanna

Gadgetmail, I am waiting til spring for HHO bubbling. I want to be outside for my first tests!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 20, 2009, 11:22:57 PM

well

jenna :)

i got this little discovery i did sooooooo long ago now ..... . well there was 2 actually ;D

you will just love it ...

i will fetch the links

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=2162.0

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=2107.0

;D ;D ;D ;D

notice the dates ....

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 20, 2009, 11:46:52 PM

IST,

were you looking at last night's posts? I find it interesting that we can provide a little energy to a system by touching it. I guess the matrix...

If your comment has to do with my most recent post on the Stubblefield generator, I am afraid I don't follow you.

@All, I just was trying to set up a new breadboard and joule thief. goin crazy, until the jumper came off in my hand... Ha broken jumpers don't work.

Anyway, In the end I made a strobe light that blinks on and off every one second. It seems almost a perfect one second.

Its specs are: 2N3904, 800R resistor 11 bifilar winds. No secondary. HMMM?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 20, 2009, 11:51:14 PM

no worries ... ;D

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on January 21, 2009, 12:02:10 AM

@IST
the first link is a battery reaction for sure.

@jeanna
we have charges difference from one side to the other of our body.
our heart is triggered by electricity, ECG and EEG are possible because heart and brain emit pulses.
the matrix scenarists didn't invented this. ;)

it would be fun if we could light leds with a jt and our fingers . ^^

Edit
not working with me. :'(
time to shop for some germanium transistor me think.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 21, 2009, 12:08:55 AM

IST,

Thanks, but I am not worried. I wonder if you could explain?

The NOP, yes. wouldn't that really be cool to light a flashlight/torch by holding it in the hand? That would be very convenient. Corse the days I'm running at 50 millivolts would be less bright than when I'm running 96 millivolts.

I was setting up to replicate jesus' charger, but now that I have a strobing light, I can do some of those resistor experiments. It is a yellow light since I am out of whites.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 21, 2009, 12:30:04 AM

@the NOP

add a crystal or 2 ;) try agin ... if not might be just a case of longer and finer wire to step it up a wee bit ;)

any ways still much to do 3 coils done ... im gonna aim for all 12 ... see how far i make it

ist!

NOTICE.... in the crystal thred how it charged a cap..... hummmmmmmmmm

what am i saying ...... lol my cap motor started by touch 1 time only

WHAT THE FLUX!!!! IS THIS EVEN REAL LIFE ... LOL

NAW IT CANT BE ... it must be WONDERLAND ... cuz you CANT DO THIS IN REAL LIFE .... CAN YOU? ;)

perhaps this needs a peek ;D as it is peeking at you ............ 8)

Re: free electricty from crystals
Â« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2007, 04:11:22 AM Â»
Reply with quoteQuote
hooked up crystal to cap and yes it will charge a cap i used 24000 hz crystal and 63v 47 u cap charges instantly as it should so..... free energy

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 21, 2009, 12:42:10 AM

theNOP,

What is not working with you?

It feels redundant, but it helps on this thread to give a wee bit of history of what you are talking about. There are so many thoughts etc.

Are you not able to see any millivolts between your hands on the voltmeter? It is really cold in my kitchen er lab, and I am getting 18 millivolts. We aren't really reliable batteries. Maybe some chilis would help? ;D

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 21, 2009, 01:11:32 AM

@ Jeanna:

I have not done this test of yours in years but I just now did it again. (My personal voltage) At first, I set the meter on the 200 millivolt scale and it gave 1111111 which is an error code. I then set it on the 2000 scale and I am reading 225 mv between my left and right hands through my fingers!

I did this same test back in our machine shop (who knows why) and almost all of my employees showed nothing or next to nothing and I was reading over 180 mv. I have no idea what this means. I had just received a bad shock the day before while working on some equipment so I figured that was the reason. And now? Maybe it is all the zaps I have been getting while making my videos with the Fuji circuit.

Just thought I would post this.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on January 21, 2009, 01:17:04 AM

Quote from: jeanna on January 21, 2009, 12:42:10 AM
theNOP,

What is not working with you?

It feels redundant, but it helps on this thread to give a wee bit of history of what you are talking about. There are so many thoughts etc.

Are you not able to see any millivolts between your hands on the voltmeter? It is really cold in my kitchen er lab, and I am getting 18 millivolts. We aren't really reliable batteries. Maybe some chilis would help? ;D

jeanna

i was trying to light a led with my finger but it didn't work. ^^

yes, i can see volts at the tips of my fingers.
also see that my right hand is positive, 40 millivolts.
germanium transistor have a .3 volt barrier, so the reason of my previous remark.

try rubbing your cloths on yourself or rubbing your feets on a rug.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 21, 2009, 01:19:47 AM

you perked my intrest as well

so i did a read lol

on the 20vdc setting i read .44 volts ;D

lol

wild

altho i dont beleave my meters i have torchered em ;D

lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 21, 2009, 01:24:53 AM

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=eZDxYHEuy_g&feature=related

For ist and jeanna I know you can't watch.Others can't watch. lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 21, 2009, 01:27:21 AM

@ IST:

Wow, I am at about 1/4 volt and you are nearly 1/2 volt!! I wonder if we all joined hands if we would be connected in series and can run a joule thief circuit with about 6 of us? Hey, you never know.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 21, 2009, 01:46:00 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 21, 2009, 01:11:32 AM
I then set it on the 2000 scale and I am reading 225 mv between my left and right hands through my fingers!

Bill

woah, maybe you should turn the heat down!

silly night. I'm turning in. My li ght is still blinking

jeanna

I just saw your next post. ;D ;D

We are all facets of the "human race diamond"

When we work together...

WE SPARKLE!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on January 21, 2009, 01:48:05 AM

@IST

sorry but that crystal thingy is not free energy.

you have to apply energy to it for it to give electricity.
in this case: heat

it is based on 2 physic principles.
piezo electricity and metal dilatation from heat.

your finger heat the metal case of the crystal.
pressure on the crystal cause by the metal dilatation create electricity.

you would get much more electricity by applying pressure directly to the crystal inside the metal case.
this is use in piezo cigarette lighters.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 21, 2009, 02:47:05 AM

@ jeanna

I would guess that your JT is blinking because your battery is almost completely dead. Try replacing it with a fresh one and see if it still blinks.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 21, 2009, 03:01:17 AM

Yes, I agree with Xee2. I have read in several places that JT's blink the leds when almost dead. A very regular flash cycle until the battery is almost completely gone.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 21, 2009, 05:23:22 AM

@ all,
I'm up to P150 playing read catch up on all the posts, as ist said "slow down" ha ha, no keep going

This thread beats all others, no kidding.

@bill
Those videos are excellent, keep playing with the sound from your new mixing setup program, volume is OK this end.
BTW that UTube video showing the fuji circuit, sure sounds like a dentists drill lol.

In regards to Stefans prod to you to use a analogue multimeter, he is correct.
The pointer being a phisical thingie will stay put, while the next pulse arrives to keep it there, the DMM will dance all over the place.

I will pull apart my High Voltage analog meter and retrace its resistor array and repost it, this might help someone with the 2 red meters I saw being nulled out by high voltages output from a trifillar coil, hello slayer007

@ arctic-knight
Do you (or anyone else) have come accross a utube video that shows how the magnetic field rotates inside a torrid?
I need to increase my knowledge on this item.

@all
Last week I took a big torrid out of a amplifier, one of the secondaries were shorted internally, so I will be using this one sometime in the JT. Will post a jpg of it later on.

@MK1,
This thread sure makes catching up a long chore, phew and I been on it most of the day, just reading up.

@ slayer007
Thats a good video you made of your setup, I did an experiment this end with the sound, I hooked my frequency meter up to my speaker output and let the utube run. hmmmm don't know what to make of it.
Maby ist can, I got extranious sounds affecting the results I think, but I think this is the first time someone has tried to see if a frequency can be measured via the internet.
take a look at "TINY" video0019.jpg I took this with my mobile ph.

I will try to catch up reading lol

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on January 21, 2009, 07:46:37 AM

Quote from: electricme on January 21, 2009, 05:23:22 AM
@ all,
I'm up to P150 playing read catch up on all the posts, as ist said "slow down" ha ha, no keep going

This thread beats all others, no kidding.

@bill
Those videos are excellent, keep playing with the sound from your new mixing setup program, volume is OK this end.
BTW that UTube video showing the fuji circuit, sure sounds like a dentists drill lol.

In regards to Stefans prod to you to use a analogue multimeter, he is correct.
The pointer being a phisical thingie will stay put, while the next pulse arrives to keep it there, the DMM will dance all over the place.

I will pull apart my High Voltage analog meter and retrace its resistor array and repost it, this might help someone with the 2 red meters I saw being nulled out by high voltages output from a trifillar coil, hello slayer007

@ arctic-knight
Do you (or anyone else) have come accross a utube video that shows how the magnetic field rotates inside a torrid?
I need to increase my knowledge on this item.

@all
Last week I took a big torrid out of a amplifier, one of the secondaries were shorted internally, so I will be using this one sometime in the JT. Will post a jpg of it later on.

@MK1,
This thread sure makes catching up a long chore, phew and I been on it most of the day, just reading up.

@ slayer007
Thats a good video you made of your setup, I did an experiment this end with the sound, I hooked my frequency meter up to my speaker output and let the utube run. hmmmm don't know what to make of it.
Maby ist can, I got extranious sounds affecting the results I think, but I think this is the first time someone has tried to see if a frequency can be measured via the internet.
take a look at "TINY" video0019.jpg I took this with my mobile ph.

I will try to catch up reading lol

jim

WOW electricme that is cool. :o

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on January 21, 2009, 07:59:49 AM

I know this has probably been posted allready but this thread is getting so long I'd hate to have to look thru every page lol.

Could some one tell what frequency a little joule thief is pulsing at or the on off time of the coil?

Thank you

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 21, 2009, 08:43:35 AM

@jeanna
thats fine .Spring is a long way off for me as it just turned Cold . i'll make at thread and Hopefully have My Generator working full steam By then . There is a sense of urgency here as most of us Americans are Jobless and looking for a way to free ourselves from Money mongering Government Controlled Energy thieves !!!!
Al
@All
Very Very Interesting PDF on Magnetic Core Characteristics
http://focus.ti.com/lit/ml/slup124/slup124.pdf

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 21, 2009, 08:51:40 AM

Quote from: TheNOP on January 21, 2009, 01:48:05 AM
@IST

sorry but that crystal thingy is not free energy.

you have to apply energy to it for it to give electricity.
in this case: heat

it is based on 2 physic principles.
piezo electricity and metal dilatation from heat.

your finger heat the metal case of the crystal.
pressure on the crystal cause by the metal dilatation create electricity.

you would get much more electricity by applying pressure directly to the crystal inside the metal case.
this is use in piezo cigarette lighters.

im gonna leave it there .... ;D

ya know .... ;)

but you are incorrect ... no argueing .. we are not there yet ;)

lol

jim im happy your back round thease parts .....

were still in frist gear rounding second base ..... ;D

i dont disagree bout how it can be used but how it does work .... ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 21, 2009, 09:00:20 AM

@all

For the new people and old members. Here is something to treasure.
I did the composition using @grounloop's circuit posted here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg142656#msg142656

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 21, 2009, 09:54:29 AM

@all
I'm tired, it's 12.35AM in Australia, going to get cleaned up and then I will retire for the night.

I have been switching backwards and forwards all night between recovering a shorted monster torid and reading up on the forum posts.
I have also been reading with glee the verbal punch up between the fishermen in the rear end of the dingy ha ha ha

OK, the gong went off and its piece time lol

I have got my hands on a BIG torid, my pinkies are hurtin with "removing" the wire off it, ooooh woe is me.
These things it seems have the primary wound first, then a layor of clear plastic is taped over this complete coil.

Then the secondaries were wound, 70 turns bifilar, then 2 seperate 55 turns, then lastly there was a 18 turns of very fine wire.

This torid had a short circuit, there was a tri-filier it seems, but carnt be to shore, as I had to cut these wires off, as they couldn't be unwound.
The primary I will do tomorra (today) sometime lol.

OK some photos
Photo0296.jpg = Torid in Amplifier, I put a 9v cell on top of it to give you all some idea of its size.
Photo0298.jpg = Torid on bench top, 9v cell on top, 1.5v cell standing next to it.
Photo0300.jpg = 1 bifilar (70turns), removed, 2 coils of 55 turns each removed, 18 turns coil removed.
Notice the burnt insulation, this is where the shorted coil is , just under all the coils I removed.
Notice the clear insulation tape has turned a creamy white.
Photo0302.jpg = Shorted coil has been removed, I am holding the clear tape which seperates the 240v ac primary.
The clear tape is a very special tape, it has very high dielectric breakdown strength of several KV, use only this tape to insulate the coils.
Photo0303.jpg = Only the primary is to be unwound now, tomorrows job afta the clothes get hung on the line, well I'm a retired invalid batchelor ha ha.
Then I gota readup on the forum, I'm still 10 pages back yet.
jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 21, 2009, 10:41:23 AM

TheNOP

Re:
@gadgetmall
"Has anyone tried that electro lizer with a Fugi yet"

not with a fuji, but with a comparable output jt yes.
not much gas output.
not supprising considering the amps

Im not going to use amps . With a distilled water and baking soda not salt they are making lots of gas with tiny currents . I saw one video of a little hho gen producing lots of bubbles with copper electrodes and a 9 volt battery . jeanna and i and others are going to figure this thing out to produce something very usefull from this Jt Thread .. From the gas made with a one volt battery it would be possible to heat with run motors and even create Hydrogen fuel cells for electricity . This is a New Age Folks and we can do it !! We can Change the world . All the rest are all ready Making Great Strides in this Field .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 21, 2009, 11:13:57 AM

Ok, I did some measurements on a JT just to show the different readings you can get. I hope this clears things up.

As you can see in the picture, my DVM shows 57.2 volts on the AC scale, the DC scale showed around 35VDC. Now look at the scope. My probe was on the X10 scale and the voltage reading on the scope reads 17.25 volts. Now 17.25 X10 = 172.5 VDC. A digital volt meter just can't measure at that frequency. Even when I used the bridge rectifier the voltage still only showed around 68VDC.

BTW the frequency was read to be 12.0 kHz. I would imagine that this frequency will reduce as the battery gets weaker. Hence the light pulsing on/off. This happens to mine. It will light continuously for a couple of days and then blink on/off for about 3 more days with the pulses going slower and slower.

As far as the current reading, I do have to change the leads on my meter for current reading. When I took a current reading in parallel with the bulb the meter read .85 mA. When the probes were placed in series the reading was 1.5 mA.

Too bad that everyone here doesn't have a scope to work with :-[

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 21, 2009, 11:44:45 AM

@MrMag
thats a Neon you got there . how about a regular Jould Thief Just that runs an led not a Hv jt like fugi . Just curious now that you have a Great Setup to Measure !!!Look s Great !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 21, 2009, 12:05:31 PM

@ MrMag:

Nice work! That is good information to have...and yes, I wish we all had scopes. Interesting that you got 12 KHz on your JT. Am I correct in thinking that unless we all used the same transistors, and resistor and the same ga. wire and same number of windings and the exact same toroids, that this will vary out here among us? Or, does the transistor and resistor themselves determine the freq.?

@ Gadgetmall:

I may be wrong but I believe that all JT circuits are high frequency. That is why I did my sound tests on both the Fuji and the toroid versions. I just think the Fuji is higher in both frequency and output due to the nature of the size of its coils and windings in the transformer. I am not sure about this, of course, but it makes sense to me that this would be true.

PS I just looked up the specs on the 2N3904 transistor and it says it will operate up to 100 MHz, for what this is worth.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 21, 2009, 12:19:45 PM

@ electricme

Now that is a BIG toroid. I suspect it came out of a very expensive amp that used ferrite instead of laminated steel for the output transformer in order to get better high frequency response and is big in order to have low distortion. That should make an excellent Joule thief. It probably is already wound so that you can use three of the connections to make the Joule thief and the other two will act as an extra winding that can be used for AC output.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 21, 2009, 12:27:53 PM

@ MrMag

Great photo. Thanks for posting it. You are correct, the only way to get accurate measurements of AC waveforms is to use a scope. I hope more people with scopes will post photos.

EDIT: Where is scope probe attached to circuit? It looks like you are measuring the voltage across the neon bulb which limits voltage to about 90 volts plus and minus (180 total for AC). The little spike is the voltage before the neon turns on, but is so quick the scope is not getting a chance to display it. If you remove the neon I think you will get a better picture of the Joule thief output voltage (it will be much higher).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 21, 2009, 12:33:36 PM

8)

thank you mr mag!!

i will hook up my scope ...

i will need some guidence if you dont mind :)

i will find my probe with adjustable x.... settings

but im still winding got 6 done

6 more to go but each and everyone is perfect so far .... ;D

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: AbbaRue on January 21, 2009, 01:21:36 PM

@MrMag
Thanks for the scope picture.
What I find most impressive is how perfect the wave's shape is.
Almost a perfect square wave. Very similar to the output of a 555 timer.
I noticed the top of the waveform is about 2.75 divisions long and the bottom is about 2.0 divisions.

An interesting experiment would be to use a variable resistor in place of the JT. control resistor,
and note the changes in the wave form as you adjust it.
If you do so start with the resistor set to the middle so you don't have a dead short to the transistor base.

It might be a good idea to use a 10 ohm resistor in series with it just so you can't adjust it to zero ohms.
Something for anyone that is planing on using a variable resistor to keep in mind.

Anyone that wants to learn more about electronics should download the zip file at this site:
http://www.falstad.com/circuit/
This circuit simulator is priceless for learning electronics.
Very easy to use just right click to get a list of components and then left click and stretch the component were you want it.
Also like the oscilloscope output it has.
I may start a separate thread on it's use and post some interesting circuits I have designed with it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 21, 2009, 01:33:05 PM

Gadget,

Working on it.

Pirate,

thanks,
I think all of the above. transistor leakage, resister tolerance, coil/toroid material and of course the battery voltage. They will all have an effect on the frequency. I really think that it would be hard for two people to get the exact same results, but they should be close. As Gadget pointed out this is not a simple JT I am using here. It is a Fugi board.

xee2,

Agreed. I guess the one thing I didn't mention is that a scope will show you the true peak-to-peak voltage whereas the DVM shows the RMS voltage.

IST,

It's about time you wiped the dust off of that scope. I'm here to help any way I can. I think your gonna kick yourself for not firing it up sooner.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 21, 2009, 01:35:20 PM

@xee and pirate,

I think you're right about the low battery. I was hunting around last night for an easy way to have 2 battery packs for jt without remaking another. I put 2 very nearly dead (.61 each) NiMH batteries in a 2fer holder. I forgot that a single AAA with 1.22v remaining has a lot more strength than 2 deader ones that equal the same 1.22v.

It blinks less this morning. I was hoping for a jt based timer. It isn't that I want slow blinks. I want to have a way to change the frequency. I guess I will put that idea aside for a while.

I am more motivated to create a heater by putting lots of IR leds in a || way with my jt

Thanks

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 21, 2009, 01:50:50 PM

Jeanna thats good too . I have tons of infared l eds from that grab box i posted a picture of here but they dont produce any heat i can feel heat . there like the ones in remote controls . I fire up a couple and of coarse no lights but i can see them with My camera .You might have different wave length as i have bunches of Laser Diodes that will burn a hole hole in you but they produce light .. Green light red light and sort of purple light .. they are high amperage and need 30 amp power supply to run those at 4.5 volts .. curious as to your heater infrareds specs ??

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 21, 2009, 01:56:03 PM

@Mr. Magg

Now you can play with that duty cycle. The time when there is no voltage changing. The flatline dead bias line.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 21, 2009, 02:42:22 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on January 21, 2009, 01:50:50 PM
... infared leds .You might have different wave length . curious as to your heater infrareds specs ??

Hi gadgetmail,

I don't know the specs.

My plan is to hook them onto my secondary that runs the 30 light array and see.

In fact, I just did. I substituted the 6 I have for 4 whites being run by the secondary. . so then I took a glass lamp globe off the very cold windowsill and have covered the array. The heat from the leds is little enough for me to think I am making my hand feel warm. So, it will have to warm up this very cold globe to really mean it.

On the other hand, I believe the IR can heat your body. I think portable saunas are made with them.

Nevermind the amperage requirements. The joule thief doesn't work like that. We don't know yet how or what it is capable of, so... I may look for some online to see what specs I am looking for.

I had a session on a "jade bed" when I visited a friend last month. I needed an extra towel to keep me from burning. The IR lights look like leds and they are embedded in the "jade". And, they really got very hot to touch.

I figure it is worth a try.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 21, 2009, 03:04:34 PM

@ AbbaRue

It is a square wave because the neon is limiting the voltage. I guess you missed my edit.

Quote from: xee2 on January 21, 2009, 12:27:53 PM
EDIT: Where is scope probe attached to circuit? It looks like you are measuring the voltage across the neon bulb which limits voltage to about 90 volts plus and minus (180 total for AC). The little spike is the voltage before the neon turns on, but is so quick the scope is not getting a chance to display it. If you remove the neon I think you will get a better picture of the Joule thief output voltage (it will be much higher).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 21, 2009, 03:14:31 PM

love the heater idea guys just awsome ....

@ MRMAGS .... you got to have some thing to do too ;) :)

lol

naw im not gonna kick my self ....

oh i have used my scope lots ;D

gadget your nuts... lol 8)

what else you got laying round there lol got any crystals .... raw ones... 8)

i want some one to do a SIMPLE TEST IF THEY HAVE THE MATERIALS ... bang or strike a cupple togather

they light up.... hummmm they discharge a verry formiliar SPARK ;D 8)

hummm

just if some one has this laying around .... if not well no rush ...

back to work i will have pics tonight of the progress of the build ....

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 21, 2009, 03:33:54 PM

OK, here is another shot. I just used a transistor I had laying around so I am going to have to find the right one. I placed a pot (1K) between the base and coil so that I could adjust the bias to the base (re. AbbaRue). I need to find a better transistor since I didn't get very much range out of the pot. Here are some readings I took.

Voltage measured across LED
Current taken in series with the battery
Resistance of the pot
Frequency across the LED

5V - 128mA - 2 ohms - 7.225kHz
4.3V - 107mA - 3 ohms - 5.5kHz

- Anything more than 3 ohms turned the light off. I need to use the proper transistor but I can't find them???

An interesting reading on the voltage shown on the picture. The voltage shown on the DVM and the scope are from the same point. I remember reading in an earlier post that someone could not read the voltage but the LED was still on. I think this will give you the answer.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 21, 2009, 03:56:43 PM

@ MrMag

The LED is also a device that limits the voltage across itself (like the neon in my previous edit, but it is not symmetrical). The voltage when the LED is on will be the forward drop voltage of the diode, and the voltage when reverse biased will be the reverse breakdown voltage of the diode. To measure the output voltage of the Joule thief the output should be open circuit (no load except the scope).

Quote from: xee2 on January 21, 2009, 12:27:53 PM
@ MrMag
EDIT: Where is scope probe attached to circuit? It looks like you are measuring the voltage across the neon bulb which limits voltage to about 90 volts plus and minus (180 total for AC). The little spike is the voltage before the neon turns on, but is so quick the scope is not getting a chance to display it. If you remove the neon I think you will get a better picture of the Joule thief output voltage (it will be much higher).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 21, 2009, 04:07:42 PM

Quote from: xee2 on January 21, 2009, 03:56:43 PM
@ MrMag

The LED is also a device that limits the voltage across itself (like the neon in my previous edit, but it is not symmetrical). The voltage when the LED is on will be the forward drop voltage of the diode, and the voltage when reverse biased will be the reverse breakdown voltage of the diode. To measure the output voltage of the Joule thief the output should be open circuit (no load except the scope).

jt output with no load

2 ohms - 13.00 VDC - 6.65 kHz - 117 mA
3 ohms - 12.62 VDC - 4.15 kHz - 101 mA

Waveform is identical and I'm still in search of my Transistors???????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 21, 2009, 04:32:35 PM

@IST

Re: Jule Thief
Â«

gadget your nuts... lol Cool

what else you got laying round there lol got any crystals .... raw ones... Cool

i want some one to do a SIMPLE TEST IF THEY HAVE THE MATERIALS ... bang or strike a cupple togather

they light up.... hummmm they discharge a verry formiliar SPARK Grin Cool

hummm

just if some one has this laying around .... if not well no rush .

I didn't want to mention it cause its got nothing to do with joule but maybe it does . I collect rocks and crystals . I got BIG gigantic Quartz Crystals and yes they spark when rubbed together ALSO i have Chunks of pyrite with gold in em . They really do give off Electricity when i put the DDM on them . you have to move it around until it contacts the right spot but i saw105 milivolts off one not long ago when i was checking out the Hutchison's Effect Crystal thing . i had to try . maybe hook a few of those rocks and run a JT ????I think so.just go to make some pointy probes to hold em in position..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 21, 2009, 04:44:01 PM

@ MrMag

??? ??? Where are your scope probes? The peak to peak output on the scope has to be a least as high as with neon for load or it would not have lit up. Try setting up as you did to measure across neon and then removed the neon and leave everything else the same.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 21, 2009, 05:13:29 PM

sheesh i need a break from winding ...

lol

gadget i figured you would have some real goddies round there ...

jim i cant waite to see that big jt wound up powering your HUGE CAPS ;D

mr mags im a fire up my scope now .... 8)

what are you useing

i have a jt with 7 turns 3/4 ring 1k 2222a tranny

ist!

well that jt is blowen 4 some reason so i grabbed another ... ;)

this one has 11 turns 1" ring .. with a 3904

i scoped the wave

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 21, 2009, 05:19:05 PM

@all

I think we are running after our tails, i seems it will show the load voltage, we should try to find the maximum load.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 21, 2009, 05:29:47 PM

@Xee2
Thankyou for your kind remarks ie my big torid, TA, you are right, in high quality amplifiers, if you substitute a torid for a iron laminated transformer, there is much less distorsion. A iron transformer rediates EME, if you place another iron transformer on top of a working transformer, then you will be able to measure voltage in the second transformer. The magnetic lines of flux can jump into it.

The Torid transformer contains its magnetic flux, so it is also more efficient.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 21, 2009, 05:36:03 PM

@all
A CRY FOR HELP

I have two more pages of posts to catch up on so I will read them after posting this.

Right oh, I need a bit of help from the gurus who know about torids, weather a forum member or not.
I posted several pages back I need to see a video of what occurs inside a torid when it is working, I want to understand how this thing operates.

Can anyone reading this point me to the web address that explains it, in a simple way?

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 21, 2009, 05:54:32 PM

@ electricme

This gives a lot of information about toroids:

Quote from: gadgetmall on January 21, 2009, 08:43:35 AM
@All
Very Very Interesting PDF on Magnetic Core Characteristics
http://focus.ti.com/lit/ml/slup124/slup124.pdf

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 21, 2009, 06:09:28 PM

a few scope shots...

ist

lol

how can i get sine from square lol :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 21, 2009, 06:20:10 PM

can i buy 2 letters ..... lol

P AND N

vanna can you turn the letters over please .....

X X X & X X X NPN & PNP WHAT :o :o

lol

ist!

vanna can you tell the fine people what they have won ..... ;D 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 21, 2009, 06:24:39 PM

@electricme

I read a lots of thing but the basic is simple , lets say you make one coil around the toroid this coil positive input will become the plus side of the coil the output the negative side (like a electromagnet , the polarity is effected by the direction of the current flow ) that magnetic field alone will produce nothing only when the flow stops and the field is collapsing that the energy is sent to the other coils.In the jt you have 2 opposing field , when one switch it induces the other as the voltage is pushing it.Pickup coil is getting the from both jt coil , since the jt coil are reverse wound(only the connections) you double the magnetic range. Now the fun is to create repulsing or attracting field and testing , create many opposing field , the location of pickup coil are not important in the regular bifilar jt as long as you don't go all the way around because when you do its canceling the voltage because every time you go all the way around it cutting the coil , is like 2 coil in series connected the wrong way will cancel each other.I made that mistake more then once .This is the reason bigger opposing field and good location for wire is the key to the thing.On your big toroid winding you did go over did you? In the tesla patent he had 4 opposing field and pickup coil at the same location.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 21, 2009, 06:36:57 PM

@electricme

This is a good source of information about toroids also:

http://www.dextermag.com/uploadedFiles/Literature_Fair_Rite_Power_App_Material.pdf

I also suggest that you Google "magnetic induction" to see if you can find some simple explanations. A toroid is just a way of increasing the magnetic coupling between wires by increasing the permeability of the space around them.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on January 21, 2009, 06:58:17 PM

@electricme
nice toroid

@gadgetmall
i do plan to use the jt for that too.
but i will stick with faraday's law even with it...

good luck.

Quote from: MrMag on January 21, 2009, 11:13:57 AM
Too bad that everyone here doesn't have a scope to work with :-[

yes, and i am the first to regret it.

thanks for the measurements

@IST
any npn transistor show the same alike trace pattern ?
same thing for pnp ?

you too IST, thanks for the measurements

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 21, 2009, 07:14:09 PM

@all

http://my.voyager.net/~jrrandall/Patents/MEGPatent.htm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on January 21, 2009, 07:17:57 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on January 21, 2009, 04:32:35 PM

i saw105 milivolts off one not long ago when i was checking out the Hutchison's Effect Crystal thing . i had to try . maybe hook a few of those rocks and run a JT ????I think so.just go to make some pointy probes to hold em in position..

Good thought.

Also, I wonder if your crystal may be able to receive what the j/t emits and amplify its output.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 21, 2009, 07:20:16 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 21, 2009, 07:14:09 PM
@all

http://my.voyager.net/~jrrandall/Patents/MEGPatent.htm

now that is even easyer lol looks like we could connect the 2 wires as one .....

looks like a bifillar speeker wire on a piggy back coil :) PUSH AND PULL ;D

CAP now were talking ...

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 21, 2009, 07:24:09 PM

@all

Lets try a crystal radio pickup coil. ;D

It would need to be tuned with the core , silicon iron have more eddy current, then toroid.

@electricme

http://www.physics247.com/physics-homework-help/electromagnetic-induction.php

edit : electric and magnetic are 90 degrees apart

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 21, 2009, 08:13:00 PM

@ Mk1

Here is an example of what you are suggesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiNEHZRm4z4

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 21, 2009, 08:20:07 PM

@xee2

Yep,the last and unknown part of magnetic, now the pickups coil limitation , are broken, as Tesla found.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 21, 2009, 08:26:22 PM

@all

Maybe this little experiment can bring some light.
It is related to the sound of a toroid through a radio. But this one use a light. I can be wrong though.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 21, 2009, 09:49:34 PM

Quote from: electricme on January 21, 2009, 05:36:03 PM
@all
A CRY FOR HELP

I have two more pages of posts to catch up on so I will read them after posting this.

Right oh, I need a bit of help from the gurus who know about torids, weather a forum member or not.
I posted several pages back I need to see a video of what occurs inside a torid when it is working, I want to understand how this thing operates.

Can anyone reading this point me to the web address that explains it, in a simple way?

jim

Hi Jim,

I like this site.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/magnetic/toroid.html (http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/magnetic/toroid.html)

That is the toroid page.

The math is complicated, but then, it is.

But the pictures are so clear, you can see what the drawing means. And, you can also see why this is so powerful.

jeanna

@All,

I am afraid I have seen no warmth with the IR leds. I did some research and I guess, I probably was thinking about IR from a too[hopeful point of view! ;) Oh darn.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 21, 2009, 10:00:27 PM

i just got some toys back from the MILL ;D ;D ;D ;D

will post in a bit ..... ;D

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 21, 2009, 10:31:44 PM

@all
I yelled out for HELP and got a avalanch of it ha ha

@ Xee2 and MK1 and TheNOP,
Thankyou for your kind help with sending me https links and presenting other bits and pieces relating to Induction.

A lot of it I carnt make any thing out of, but sofar I learnt if the Right Hand RULE for Solonoids

Hold a coil in ones right hand, the thumb pointing out to the right, palm open.
Imagine you are holding a coil, now curl your fingers up and over the coil.

Next imagine drawing a magnet out of the coil with your left hand.

The electric push goes to the right whilst the magnet is pulled out the left.

I assume the opersate takes place when inserting the magnet.

NOW, I think the JT is making the same thing happen in the torrid <---> but at high speed.

Is this the FLUX going backwards and forwards? hmmmm and EDDIE currents are those that follow the fingers direction and they reverse also? hmmmmm

I would love to see a video of this happenning, a picture tells a thousand words, and just creates more questions to answer. lol

Thanks again fellas.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 21, 2009, 10:42:42 PM

@all
My big torid is

Diameter = 103mm
Width = 30mm
Hight = 31mm

Colour = Grey which means it is configured for low Hz not Yellow/White for 150kHz or higher.

Well as we seem to be breaking all the known rules in this forum, who cares, lets break another one lol
I'll wind it and see what happens.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 21, 2009, 11:09:52 PM

ONE IST! CAPPAC! ;D

IST!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 21, 2009, 11:13:08 PM

@ist

Could you run a 12/120 volt inverter with that.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: amigo on January 21, 2009, 11:16:21 PM

IST,

I do hope you will be charging and discharging those caps many times a second for it to have any meaning...otherwise you could probably take that contraption and use it as a doorstop, it'd look good. :P

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 21, 2009, 11:19:00 PM

Quote from: amigo on January 21, 2009, 11:16:21 PM
IST,

I do hope you will be charging and discharging those caps many times a second for it to have any meaning...otherwise you could probably take that contraption and use it as a doorstop, it'd look good. :P

lol is that so ...... lol

i have no worries lol ...

i will not dump those caps all at once if i were you ..... do you like your life ?????????

ist!

this is not out put lol i mean you could and will use it for that at some point but not its main use .... ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: amigo on January 21, 2009, 11:21:30 PM

IST,

I'm just trying to figure out what other purpose would there be of slow discharge of capacitors, running more LEDs?

At least with abrupt discharge you could create some usable power. :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 22, 2009, 12:09:55 AM

indeed i will do that but only a little is needed ...

imagine i dumped a whole cap like that to a primary at the speed of electricty ......

when we right now are only useing half of it .... from a 1.5vdc battery.... and getting dc spikes over 500v .. and the other who knows how high a voltage it really is ...

plus those got some amps to em .....

at a quick dump .....

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on January 22, 2009, 12:16:10 AM

IST

check google bigger is not allways better, i have a nickel sized cap that can do 5.5v at 1F yours does 50V at 0.125 farad if im right, if wrong then its 1.25F

go with ultracaps aka super caps aka dual layer caps. there is a guy that has a cap pack the size of yours that will power a house for a month! does 47KW!

looks cool and beastly tho :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 22, 2009, 12:28:49 AM

Hi everybody,

Remember when I noticed that only 1 turn of the secondary would light the lights?

I was setting things up for my array, and I was making the array in series but 3 deep of parallel.

MK1 just asked me to test the one wire thing on some lights, but using different wire gauges.

Since I did do that on the array as it was already (I mean with 1 gauge) I decided to make the array one led and as deep as 30 lights if possible as I test these different gauges.

I never needed to make more than 1 turn no matter what the gauge of wire.

I already know that the lights go dim or out on the next light in series.

This array has 12 leds in parallel with each other. I can do more tomorrow in the daylight.

I tested 4 wires with only 1 turn around the toroid. This toroid has 11 bifilar turns on it so this is a single turn of a secondary wire around that. (light grey toroid)

They ALL lit 12 lights.

The gauge was from 22, 24, 30 in copper and 30 in Kynar, whatever that is. "wrapping wire" from radio shack.

I checked the rectified voltage. 1.09 to 1.06v in all of them.

The 9.5 ohm resistor stayed in the place by the battery terminal. I find it too fiddly to get those wires into the breadboard slots. So, this is with the resistor. The volts across that resistor was .22V so the Amps was .023A the whole time.

I feel pretty sure the amperage of this circuit reflects the cost of the transistor only.

I guess the voltage only goes up with the turns. This is the very toroid that with 52 turns of 22 gauge mag wire gave out 29V and 25V rectified across those secondary ends.

I also did a thing I have wanted to do since the beginning. I had enough extra wire on the 52 turns secondary, so I wrapped it over the whole thing 5 times. (across the hole in the middle) The lights went on beautifully. They were pretty bright.

The brightness is so subjective, It is very hard to be anything more than vague.

However, the point is all the lights continued to go on throughout this little test.

Did I confuse everybody?

One of my conclusions here is that the thinner wire is easier to wind and one can make many more turns in the given space, and that is the way to go.

jeanna

PS For clarity and for anyone who hasn't read all 10 thousand pages of this thread. One light and 12 lights in parallel all light up with the same brightness when given their power from the secondary only.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on January 22, 2009, 12:40:01 AM

It would be nice to see a recap of what the circuit diagram for this device looks like - it seems to have changed over time. I gather nothing from the videos, sorry Pirate, but the video's just not convincing me.

a 125000 mfd capacitor, IST, you have a six pack of these devices; you don't think this is a bit extreme, where do you get these things anyway!? Wouldn't something so large have a capacitive discharge over time, without a load, which decreases the over-all capacity stored; in other words, if you loaded something onto the capacitor, it wouldn't be as effective as a batter of the same size or price relative to charge time?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 22, 2009, 12:55:10 AM

those caps were all i could get at the time supercaps are on the list if i can find a place to buy em ..... looking for 2vdc or less 2f

and biger ones on output ..... the out caps really do not matter ..... depends on there use yes these caps slowly leak altho no concern ...

this is a power suply for many things .... but only 1 of the steps in the system.... point is i charge em for free... well next to it ... ;)

and yes i was gonna use 12vdc 2f caps x6 to drive an invertor with the original design .... but those are not cheep

this was my first original cappac design ...

wate till i build my MEGA CAPS ;)

that is on deck as well ...

for now mechanical engery is my goal with this pac ... to drive my biggggg motor .... from a watch battery...

my motor will weigh at least 50lbs maybe more ... hopeing for 6 coils big ones.... to drive it ... then piggy back off it .... and run gearboxes with it ... for what ever as well

well you get the idea do you not ?

ist!

1000 uses....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Freezer on January 22, 2009, 01:22:30 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 22, 2009, 12:55:10 AM
those caps were all i could get at the time supercaps are on the list if i can find a place to buy em ..... looking for 2vdc or less 2f

This was the best I could find for the cheapest price. There's not many stores that sell these.

http://www.all-battery.com/electricalaccessories_1.aspx

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 22, 2009, 01:44:10 AM

thank you

freezer

those are cheep i will buy a bunch for input side... now just the out put side .....

im designing a new unit to multiply the out of 1 small scale first ...

ist

then close loop the beast ...

pic...

will buy more cameras tommorow .... ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 22, 2009, 02:27:41 AM

@ IST:

Here is a link to where i got my caps.

http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/90424-capacitor-ultra-400f-2-7v-radial-eshsr-0400c0-002r7.html

This page has the ones I want to get next. 2.7v 400F. $30 each. that is a lot of farads for this prince. Makes my 10F look tiny.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 22, 2009, 02:32:40 AM

@ Freezer:

The link I posted above has the same caps for about the same price as where you posted. But, they have a whole bunch (hundreds) to choose from. I had posted this way back but I posted it again for IST in my previous post. My 10F's were about $3.00 ea. I posted above to the 2.7v 400 F ones I want to order next. They have 1F 10 F all the way up to 4,000 F.

If you scroll down to the bottom of the page I posted, you can see a wide range of sizes and that is just in this type alone. That site is a bit confusing and it took me a while to find what I wanted so that is a good page as you can see many other choices on the same page as well.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 22, 2009, 02:38:15 AM

any idea of run time we would get from a 400f supercap on 1 cam unit?

forever did you say .... ;D

i will have to get some ....

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Freezer on January 22, 2009, 02:57:20 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 22, 2009, 02:32:40 AM
@ Freezer:

The link I posted above has the same caps for about the same price as where you posted. But, they have a whole bunch (hundreds) to choose from. I had posted this way back but I posted it again for IST in my previous post. My 10F's were about $3.00 ea. I posted above to the 2.7v 400 F ones I want to order next. They have 1F 10 F all the way up to 4,000 F.

If you scroll down to the bottom of the page I posted, you can see a wide range of sizes and that is just in this type alone. That site is a bit confusing and it took me a while to find what I wanted so that is a good page as you can see many other choices on the same page as well.

Bill

Thanks, I'll probably order some soon. Too bad they don't go down to 1volt.

I'm interested in what ist talked about the crystals. I have like 50 of these crystals lying around all at different mhz, so I might start messing around with that. Perhaps the crystal structure could be excited by magnetic fields or certain frequencies coming off.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 22, 2009, 02:58:43 AM

@ IST:

I don't know how to figure it but my bet is one should light a few leds for a very long time. I have a question for you, or anyone. @2.7 volts can 400F kill us or harm us in any way? I know what a Farad is but I can't equate that to amps of which 1/10 of an amp can kill. I would like to get 2 of these units.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 22, 2009, 03:03:24 AM

@ Freezer:

Yes, I have never seen any at 1 volt....but, I was concerned that I might fry my transistor running it at 2.3 vdc with my 10F caps...then, I got the idea to charge them with an AA battery and....then they only had 1.5 volts. So, if you wanted a 1 volt supercap, just charge it with 1 volt input somehow and that should do it. (At least from what I have observed, I am no expert on these)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 22, 2009, 03:40:02 AM

@ Jeanna
I forgot to include you for your kind "help" a couple of posts back, thank you Jeanna.

@ Pirate,
Will a capacitor kill you, short answer is "yep", if you decide to discharge it directly **** EDITED OUT **** your heart, well have you said your prayers before you do it?
DON'T do it kiddies, it will hurt you, lots and lots.

@ ist,
well now what do we have here, a six pack of lovely capacitors, and biggies to boot, I been sitting here thinking about this ist, hmmmmmmm, and hmmmmmm, would you be thinking of making up some kind of rotary discharge and recharge system?
If one had say 10 JTs, powering separate capacitors, and each controlled by a LED driver counter chip IC, this could be done, the output of the chip switches on a separate MOSFET, this could impulse drive a big stepper motor disk, or a motor designed by yourself that has separate coils?

Is this what you are going to do ist, or have I given you an idea for another invention? lol

@all,
I just setup another computer, and installed a BETA copy of Windows 7, looks good people, don't put it on your working everyday PC as it is knobbled on the 1st of AUGUST 2009, it will stop and you will loose anything you put on it, use a sheep dip PC.
You cant setup via "update 2 Win7" if you got XP, you will need to start off with a blank HD.

I just heard on our news, Pres. B. OBAMA (the pretender) has taken his oath again, whats going on here with this guy? I smell a rat in coat tails with a golden tooth. Before anyone jumps down my throat, google his name, you'll see.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Tink on January 22, 2009, 05:43:29 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 22, 2009, 02:58:43 AM
@ IST:

I have a question for you, or anyone. @2.7 volts can 400F kill us or harm us in any way?

Bill

No.
Voltage far too low.
Never connect poles the wrong way though, or it will explode,..THAT might kill you.
Oh, and don't overcharge it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 22, 2009, 07:14:01 AM

@all and Bill
Bill asked a question generally, it was, can 1/10 of an AMP kill you? ;D

This is a timely question as through out this JT thread, many of us have been jolted whilst pulling apart cameras and coming into contact with capacitors, so in the interest of forum safety, I have presented the below web site.

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_3/4.html

To Bills, question, I have answered YES, and Tink said NO, (thankyou sir), so I decided to google this question
Now I'm not saying that this web address answers YES or NO, I suggest you the reader go and see for yourself.

There are many varables involved, and it is not quite so stright forward as it may seem. :o :-\

Goodnight all

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 22, 2009, 08:06:00 AM

@MK1 he has passed me a link for my output caps last night ... i was wondering if you would be so kind to post the link for the peeps... 8)

i do understand if you do not want to freely GIVE THIS OUT ... but if you do .....JUST DO IT ;D

i forgot to tell you guys bout my alum RINGS .... i had chewed out of some plate alum

they are .25" thick 1 " face and 6" rings... i got 6 of em

was gonna stack em and throw some feroite tranny cores in it wound as a jt ;)

with a magnet on the top of it .... and a few pick up coils round the top ring....

but we will see how far i get back to the slayer 007 coils..

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 22, 2009, 08:26:57 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 20, 2009, 02:01:22 PM
@ Gadgetmall:

Those shots were taken well over a year ago in the beginning of my experiments with the earth battery. I would have to dig out my numbers but I believe I was up to 2.2 vdc and about 80 mA's. Still a little light in the mA's area to match up to an AA battery. I remember the 2.2 vdc number because a lot of folks told me this was just a galvanic reaction. Well, if that was all it was the limit would be, as we know, 1.5 vdc.

Once the ground thaws out a bit here, I am going to test the JT on it first thing. I put a supercap in series with the led but that is all I had done with a cap in those experiments. It charged the cap while lighting the led and then, I could remove them from the earth battery and take the led inside where it would remain lit for several hours.

I hope to use my new 10F supercaps in a similar manner with both the earth battery, and my solar cells. (2 different experiments)

You beat me to it by hooking the JT to your earth battery. Great job though, I was confident it would work. some of my electrical friends told me JT's only work with batteries but when I made the video showing one operating from a supercap, well, I knew they were wrong and the earth battery should work also. And, you proved it did. Great job!

I studied the earth battery quite a bit last year and I believe I can help you get your volts and power up. PM me if I can be of service in any way. This is going to be a fun spring isn't it?

Bill

@Gadgetmall & Bill

Yesterday I hooked up my small toroid JT up to the earth battery with a diode going from battery + to cap +(10v 2200uF) and the cap across the + and - of the JT. I got nothing. Maybe it would work with my big-toroid JT. I'll check this all out tomorrow since I'm off all day. I also tried hooking up my Kodak circuit and got nothing as well. I didn't have my meter with me outside so I don't have any numbers, but I'm going to play around with the meter and magnesium and get the voltage as high as I can and then see if I get anything from the JT and Kodak.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 22, 2009, 08:33:28 AM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on January 20, 2009, 02:46:12 PM
@pirate

ill let you know a little secret that looks like someone else has found as well. look at the laws of eddy currents,. eddy currents is basically an air brake, if there is no eddy (and no iron) in the generator then there will be no resistance! make a custom generator with no iron when you do the windmill and on the output before you do anything with the output tie it directly to a capacitor using a diode to prevent the generator from becoming a motor! this will eliminate eddy currents and practically all resistance except from the mechanical joints.

on a side note can someone please invent the magnetic ball bearing so we can eleminate friction all together!

I thought there were magnetic ball bearings. ???
I have seen magnetic neo spheres. Could that not be used?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 22, 2009, 09:08:31 AM

do you guys think that if we put a few LEDS on the return of the recharge cap it would limit our recharge flow ....

so as not to fill the 400f 2v caps to the point of where they blow our input curcutry....

or

DO WE SKIP THE SMALL CRAP AND STEP IT UP TO THE 3055 THEY TAKE A BEATING LET ME TELL YA ;D WHEN PORTECTED OF COURSE ....

FETS DONT LIKE THIS FLY BACK STUFF....... ITS MORE LIKE FRY BACK LOL

unless ..... more later ...

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 22, 2009, 12:10:15 PM

@ Jim and Tink:

Thanks for your answers. What I was asking was about supercaps. I know 1/10 of an amp can kill, I have read that many times. What I don't know is in a 2.7 volt 400 F supercap, if that would be dangerous. I guess the real question is.....how many amps can be stored in a 400 F supercap and would that be dangerous?

Supercaps are different in that they do not dump all of their stored energy all at one time like the caps on our fuji boards. This is why I am confused here. I will go back and read the link Jim posted. (Thanks Jim) I have read a lot about regular capacitors in my studies but can find very little on super or ultra caps as pertains to possible safety issues. And if a 400 F cap is safe, what would happen with a 4,000 Farad cap?

I was just concerned that I might be getting into a danger zone by ordering these 400 farad caps is all.

Thank you guys for your responses.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 22, 2009, 03:50:53 PM

anyone got a real nice earth battery ..... 8)

the team could use one .....

PLANT THE SEED AND LET THE FLOWER GROW.... :)

ist... 8)

oh got all 12 coils wound up primaries any ways ... gen coils tonight ....

got some welding rods today and more cams

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 22, 2009, 03:57:09 PM

I have two earth batteries but I have to wait for the thaw to experiment with my JT circuit on them. They are easy to make. PM me if you need any info on this.

Here is one of my videos I did over a year ago on the earth battery.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mq9ZKDKDclY&feature=channel_page

My results are much better now and I can't wait to see if it will power a JT circuit.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on January 22, 2009, 03:59:00 PM

@Pirate88179
if i remember right..., 1 farad = 1 ampere.
1 farad = 1 coulomb/volt

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 22, 2009, 04:16:28 PM

@ IST and Pirate . I love My earth battery . i dont know if its galvanic or what but its powering two jts in parallel even under the Frozen Ground . I can't wait till Spring . (MONTHS FROM NOW :( ) to DRIVE SOME MORE ..
@ Timmy
Forget the diode just hook it up straight with a small polorized cap in parallel the one i use is 1000uf at 16v

Yall want to see another Self Charging feedback to source i made yesterday .. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbSV-BqGnYw

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on January 22, 2009, 04:27:10 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on January 22, 2009, 12:40:01 AM
It would be nice to see a recap of what the circuit diagram for this device looks like - it seems to have changed over time. I gather nothing from the videos, sorry Pirate, but the video's just not convincing me.

Maybe a nice circuit diagram? ... from one of you replicators?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 22, 2009, 04:56:29 PM

@ NOP:

Thank you!

@ Gadgetmall:

I can't wait until the thaw either. I saw your video posted on Jesus's topic and watched it from there, good job!

@ All:

My shipment came in!!!!!! These solar cells are very nice and in good shape. I almost forgot I ordered the toroids too (ferrite) and these things are thick! They are 1" OD and 1/2 thick! A lot of mass in them. I got 5 of them for about $1. I alao got 13 little switches like I used on the Fuji circuit board and 5 more LEDs of the 265,000 Mcd variety. I am off to Radio Shack to see if they got their 3904 transistors in. I may get a couple of vr's too while there ......and then, I am going to see what effect the high output leds have on the solar cells and go from there. And remember, this is serious work and I will not be playing or having any fun at all....just serious experimenting....and no fun........Ha, ha...of course it will be great fun, unless I get zapped which I probably will.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 22, 2009, 05:01:36 PM

@ Jadaro2600:

There are drawings and schematics posted on here of everything we have been working on and also of some things we have not tried yet but will. I wish I could tell you what page they were on but just a few pages back, Jesus posted a collection of some of them. I also know there are some near the beginning of this topic. Also, if you are speaking of the small basic Joule Thief, you can go to Insructables.com and search for these circuits. That is where I got the instructions for my first one with the toroid. Sorry I can't be of more help....I need to run to Radio Shack.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 22, 2009, 06:05:58 PM

@ All:

Back from Radio Shack and I am broke again. I bought:

3 2N3904 transistors (It was all they had,again)

5 K ohm pot.

2 28,500 MCD suprbright leds (all they had)

TIP 120 Darlington Transistor

5 1k resistors

3 rolls of magnet wire (22, 26, 30 ga.)

100 ft. of stranded 22 ga. wire.

2 AA battery holders (all they had)

1 toggle switch.

Add this to my shipment today from electronics goldmine and now you can see how I am broke. But, If I can't make something with all of this then, I must be an idiot. (which is, of course, entirely possible)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 22, 2009, 06:30:15 PM

8)

intresting list you have there bill

will we put this all in 1 unit ? ;D

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 22, 2009, 06:43:41 PM

@all

Crazy thing maybe, but if one could fill a bat cap, the ones they used as a supplement in car power for 120v audio visual type application , why not charge it and run a inverter a good one like 1800 watt, you may need more then one to run a house but really?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 22, 2009, 06:49:17 PM

;D

now i think we need a visual .... 8)

just cuz im really NUTS.... ;D I NEED THE LAST ONE ;D ;D

ist!

8400

Dimensions - 12.5 x 9.5 x 9
Size And Weight - 70 Pounds
Amp Information
12 Volt - 9600 Amps
14 Volt - 9600 Amps
16 Volt - 8400 Amps
:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

OMG!!!!!

lol

I KNOW I CAN CHARGE EM ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: ramset on January 22, 2009, 06:55:26 PM

Ist

A Godzilla Batcap?

SWEET!!

Chet

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 22, 2009, 08:50:22 PM

how do i know i will charge those with ease..... ;D

lets ask slayer ;)

see how his meters gooooooo nuttttttttttts .... lol

when we fire up the turbine :) now IMAGINE I JUST BUILT A COIL THAT HAS 12 FEEDS LIKE THAT THEN WE WILL PIGGY BACK OFF THOSE 12 FEEDS .... WITH AS MANY PICKUP COILS AS YOU DESIRE .....

WHEN I HAVE THE MONEY TO SPEND TO TRY THIS ...... you bet i will

most likely buy 12 8400 tho unless we come up with a better way ....

ist!

sounds costly right now .... i may have to speek DIRRECTLY TO THE MANIFACTURE ... FOR A BULK BUY ;)

HERES AN IDEA SO WHAT IF I HAVE TO CHARGE THE OUTPUT BATCAP THE FIRST TIME TO ALLOW SELFSUSTAINEING MODE.... 8)

ask me if i care ..... ;D

00OOoo heres that line agin ........ lol

LET A SINGLE CHARGE OF CAP 1 BE FIRST CONSIDERED

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: amigo on January 22, 2009, 09:20:57 PM

IST

Whereabouts in Canada are you (just wondering)?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on January 22, 2009, 10:24:03 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 22, 2009, 02:58:43 AM
@ IST:

I don't know how to figure it but my bet is one should light a few leds for a very long time. I have a question for you, or anyone. @2.7 volts can 400F kill us or harm us in any way? I know what a Farad is but I can't equate that to amps of which 1/10 of an amp can kill. I would like to get 2 of these units.

Bill

bill i cant believe caps have gotten that dense! 1F or Farad is 1 amp! that 400F cap makes a lithium ion battery look like a potato battery! thats ridicules! i want all my devices powered by supercaps! i have seen a increase in density that as now greatly surpassed lithium ion. and they are cheeper!

arrange for a secondary cap pack equal to the one you are charging and you could dump the charge of one into the other essentially recharging any electrical device in seconds!

bill, that 400f cap will knock you on your butt so fast litterally you wont know you touched it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Sprocket on January 22, 2009, 11:20:35 PM

Here is a good site that should help with regard to capacitor capacities:

http://www.powerstream.com/battery-capacity-calculations.htm (http://www.powerstream.com/battery-capacity-calculations.htm)

Even a 400F low-voltage cap still comes nowhere near alkaline/nimh battery storage. Also note the additional 'drawbacks':

QuoteAs long as we are in the prelude, I might also mention that since the charge in a capacitor is Q=CV that a battery can be rated in farads as well. A 1.5 volt alkaline battery that stores 2 amp hours of charge (thatâ€™s 7200 coulombs) has the capacitance of 4800 Farads. Of course a battery makes an awfully weird capacitor because the voltage doesnâ€™t drop proportionally to the stored charge, it has a high equivalent resistance, and etc.

Also, there is no danger from touching low-voltage cap. leads, irrespective of their capacities, as the resistance-path through the human body is far too high for significant current to flow - grab the terminals of a 12v car battery to prove it to yourself! Shorting them together is another matter however! :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 22, 2009, 11:27:40 PM

i live in ontario...

so sprocket

this does make good sence ... ;D

so this is still safe to play with ? 8)

just dont charge hv caps ..... that is where you can be hurt fast .....

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 23, 2009, 12:41:50 AM

@ ArticKnight:

Thanks for the info. I am using them exactly like batteries. The 4,000 F super caps are expensive at this time (about $4,000 each) I just hooked up a test circuit now with a toroid JT driving 2 superbright leds but I also tied in 2 10 F supercaps and one .47 F cap. I will post a video later tonight or tomorrow but the cool thing is, I can disconnect the battery while lit and you can't see any difference at all in the light output....not even a flicker when connecting or disconnecting. I have had it off the battery now and running for over 20 minutes. I also used a potentiometer to tune the circuit which is also interesting. So, 1 amp = 1 Farad. I believe someone else posted the same thing. (I like agreement) Thanks again.

@ Sprocket:

I read your quote from the article but have not read the article, but I will. Thank you for posting it. One thing that does not make sense to me, and I am not arguing with the article because I have not read it yet, nor do I really know much about these new caps at all, is that Sears now sells a cordless screwdriver using nothing but supercaps instead of lithium ion bats. They said with the lithium the tool will run for 4 hours but takes 5 hours to fully recharge. The supercap model runs for only 2 hours, but fully charges in 3 minutes!!! You can google it if you want, I think Coleman makes one too. Also, the use these now in electric and hybrid vehicles to capture and store the regenerative braking energy. They will one day replace the drive batteries in vehicles but they are not cost effective for that as of yet from what I have read. it would be great to recharge an electric vehicle in like 10 minutes instead of overnight. And, these caps do not wear out even after millions of cycles of charge/discharge as other batteries do. If they outperform high tech batteries in these applications, I can't believe that a regular battery can compare. But, like I said, I appreciate your posting the article and I will go and read it. Thank you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 23, 2009, 12:50:19 AM

@ Sproket:

Great article!! I saved it for future ref. A lot of good formulas in there. Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 23, 2009, 12:59:19 AM

Hi everyone,

I have a report for your consideration tonight.

I continued the test to see if there is any difference or advantage to use thicker wire when wrapping the secondary.

What is required is to push the circuit to its limit and see if I can get more out of it by using a thicker wire for the secondary.

To that end, I restructured the array to be all in a parallel arrangement. I snaked the lights out and back 10 times arranging the jumpers to keep it all parallel. I checked each row before continuing. I have had the 10 ohm (9.5) resistor in series with the battery at the positive end.

The basic circuit is the basic hand made joule thief as follows:

2n3904 transistor
1k ohm at base
no actual led in || with the transistor, but just in the initial set up to be sure the ckt is set up correctly.
Toroid wrapped with 11 bifilar turns wrapped and twisted as described by evilmadscientist.com
1 battery 1.2V
10 R resistor at the pos end of battery.

30 leds in || with this not connected to anything.

Then I wrapped ONE turn around the toroid using various gauge wires:
22 gauge mag wire
24 gauge telephone wire single strand plastic coated - good for jumpers.
30 gauge mag wire
30 gauge kevlar wire coated with teflon.

and tested with the bridge rectifier to see the voltage of the toroid with the 1 turn running off the battery and through the toroid system.

Then I touched either side of the first led and turned on the whole array and tested.

They are so close to the same thing that there is no real difference.
The difference is so small, that it is less than the resolution of the meter.

Each gauge of wire when turned 1 time around the toroid showed 0.88Volts rectified
Each gauge of wire drew 0.19Amp when tested by E=IR with 10 ohm resistor in series with the circuit. In other words, the voltage across that 9.5 ohm resistor was 0.18volts in all cases today with 30 lights. Then I put a fresh battery in the holder still lower, but closer to last night's battery.

There was really no difference between last night's 12 light and today's 30 light array,
On the 12 light array, the voltage through the resistor to measure amps was 0.22V
On the 30 light array, the voltage through the resistor to measure amps was 0.21V

the same.
given a slightly deader battery today.

12 lights or 30 lights the same amperage. being seen in the whole circuit.

So, I have not yet taken this circuit to its limit. I will try putting a resistor of higher value in series with the battery to see if I can lower the incoming voltage enough to make the lights blink. At the place where they blink, I will check the various gauge secondaries to see if a thicker secondary has any advantage or disadvantage.

more tomorrow!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 23, 2009, 01:05:38 AM

hmmm

I was going to pass along the little print the thread trick to jadaro, but I see it is no more. too bad.

jeanna

PS I do like the new layout. Nice to have a whole page.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 23, 2009, 01:17:06 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on January 22, 2009, 04:16:28 PM
@ IST and Pirate . I love My earth battery . i dont know if its galvanic or what but its powering two jts in parallel even under the Frozen Ground . I can't wait till Spring . (MONTHS FROM NOW :( ) to DRIVE SOME MORE ..
@ Timmy
Forget the diode just hook it up straight with a small polorized cap in parallel the one i use is 1000uf at 16v

Yall want to see another Self Charging feedback to source i made yesterday .. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbSV-BqGnYw

Woah,

verrry nice job.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 23, 2009, 01:22:33 AM

finally all 12 are done ... 8)

big job time for a winder.....

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 23, 2009, 01:32:37 AM

@all

Thanks everyone for losing sleep making a stand and working all together , lets me tell you what we will share in the end SUCCESS FOR ALL.

@ist

Nice picture, now the fun begins wiring that to full potential .http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=xWpNs9cabAc&feature=channel_page , you will also need a antenna. ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 23, 2009, 02:06:29 AM

@ jeanna

Very nice report. You make a good scientist. As you have found out, the wire diameter and what the wire is made of do not make any difference in performance (unless the wire resistance is over a few ohms). It is the amount of current flowing through the wire that is critical.

I think you will find that changing current or voltage to the circuit will not make it blink. The circuit blinks when the battery is dead because when the circuit turns on it drains all of the energy available from the battery and then when all of the available energy is drained the circuit turns off. When the circuit is off the chemicals in the battery will slowly replenish the energy in the battery and the voltage will slowly climb. When the battery voltage gets high enough to turn on the circuit, the circuit will drain all of the energy from the battery and the precess will start over. This will continue until the chemicals can no longer generate enough energy to raise the battery voltage high enough to turn on the circuit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 23, 2009, 02:06:53 AM

@all,
Bought a couple of security cameras, had a bit of trouble with the glair affecting them, so I found a set of cool shades, cut em through the nose, cut the arms off, and stuck a shade over each cameras lens. Now I can see outside in comfort. lol ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 23, 2009, 02:15:19 AM

@electricme

Your mice problem seems bigger then a tough , good god tel me you can't see them on cctv .lol ;D

Edit: i forgot http://www.uoguelph.ca/~antoon/gadgets/coils/coils.html

http://jnaudin.free.fr/vpexp/index.htm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 23, 2009, 02:26:29 AM

My Goal in making a JT setup, why am I doing this?

Well even today, a couple of hours ago the power failed because of a storm, my 1KW UPS took over, but it has a limited battery capacity.
I need something that is going to see me through days of no local power supply, so I keept my eyes open for all sorts of stuff I might be able to use. Here is some "stuff" I have been given or found in dumps.

Photo 0311.jpg = My "spare" set of ALCAD cells, in the shed annex

Photo 0313.jpg = My good set of ALCAD 300 cells being charged in the garage (I got these about 3 weeks ago)

Photo 0316.jpg = My 1.0 KW UPS, I took the two 17 AHr gell cells out, and connected pos & neg via a quick connect DC plug and socket
I intend to connect the ALCAD batteries to this UPS, then see how long it will hold up the power for, hopefully for 12 hrs at least.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 23, 2009, 02:47:30 AM

@MK1
Ha ha, loved your mouse joke, Raced over and grabbed No1 CCD camera and plonked it here
0325.jpg = MOUSE TRAP on CCTV lol

0326.jpg = video cam perched on GPO peering downwards at mouse trap device (unda trial) cmon mouse-eeeee, mouse-eeeee, I need to c if da trappe worketh, lol

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 23, 2009, 02:57:28 AM

OH, xee, I think you are right. A bigo resistor won't make it blink. just go out or very dim.

Well, maybe that will be a place to start.

The question is, can I limit the supply of energy to the system so much that only the best circumstance will allow it to work? If I can limit it and a fatter wire will allow more energy into the system, then this will be good to know. Even if a fatter wire does not allow more energy into the system, that is good to know too, because ordinarily, I think it should... because of less resistance. so...

I'm too tired to think any more.

Thank you everybody,
good night,

jeanna

PS
HA HA JIM that pic of closed circuit tv of your mousetrap is really funny!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 23, 2009, 03:19:56 AM

@ jeanna

The power consumed by the circuit is set by the base resistor value, the transistor gain, and the battery voltage. If you always use the same transistor, and always use fresh batteries, then you can put a variable resistor in place of the 1K base resistor and increase the resistance until the circuit just barely lights the LEDs. If you leave the variable resistor at this value, then you can make changes to the transformer and see if the LEDs are brighter or dimmer.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 23, 2009, 03:32:46 AM

@ bill,
Some time ago (I think it was you) mentioned on the JT thread about using a wind generator, anyway, I went out to the Dalby wreckers and bought a kids Raser electric scooter, 24v setup, for $5.
This has a chain drive on it so it will be easier to setup, I have a tower in the back yard so its a matter of relocating the tower as the tree grew around it, and fit a prop to the wheel. I believe these small motors can put out quite a few amps.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 23, 2009, 03:36:47 AM

@ those who know about Fisher n Paykel
check this out lol
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 23, 2009, 03:42:54 AM

@all
F&P stepper motors can be reconfigured as a generator/alternator or as a electric Low Voltage Motor.
These are very interresting things, yep.
If one is made into a DC Motor, it is capable of producing 12 HP, 2 = 24HP, now ehat is enough to turn the wheels of a small size family car.
A job for Ron, later on. lol still no mice in the trap, I can CCCCCCeeeee.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 23, 2009, 05:01:24 AM

@Xee2 and IST and to the techy theory heads

I have a thought that I want to pass around, OK we all are squeesing every last ounce of energy out of our 1.5v or 1.2v cells using a tiny basic transister, nothing wrong with this, and it works.

I read just now, the transister base current load controls the output, (from Xee2?)
Also Jeanna (whos brain is tired right now, has also dropped a clue), wire sizes.

I havent thought of this from that angle, so here goes, this is where I, myself and I make a fool of myself, lol.

What say someone who has a 2n3055 transister, solders 2 x 2000ohms 5 Watt resisters = 1000 ohms to the base of the transister back to the coils of the juel thief.
The Juel Thief being wound with HEAVY Duty wire, bifilar on a torid.

OK my madness says, we just might get AMPS out of the torid.

Use a 1.2v NiCad ir NmH cell as the current taken from the cell will be huge.
Or setup several 1.2volt cells in parallel to handle current.

Notice, we are not going past the 1.5v limit that we have set from day 1.

8888888888888888888888888888888888

If that fazes you, connect the emitter of the small transister and connect it to the Base pin of the 2n3055 and set them both up as a darlington configuration, but use HD wires for current in and out.

OK, lets throw this idea around in the eather, what do the thinkers say?

jim

@ jeanna, thanks 4 the Ha Ha' s made me laugh too.
I'm waiting 4 all the others 2 wake up and post lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 23, 2009, 05:30:08 AM

Now can any of you tell me what that is, i see ferrite , i see pickup coils , 3 galvanic battery on coils, no transistor? Right nature gives us ac anyway, you don't need more.

Its just a step, but the first. Now that has to be the oldest one anyway.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 23, 2009, 06:41:35 AM

@MK1
My friend, you have found-stumbled onto a Stubblefield coil setup.
We will digress a little from the JT thread to explain your find.

These things are bifilar wound
Take a iron bolt, tape it with cotton.
Take a iron wire, insulate it with cotton, and a copper wire, both with the same cross sectional area, then wind them on the iron bolt or former.
Nathan Stubblefield made his with the iron wire being insulated with cotton, or silk can be used. without mentioning names ;) this person will know ha ha

We have 2 threads on the OU forum on just this 1 item.
Localjoes and Pirates (surprise surprise)

IST made a chance remark a little while back I am thinking about, regarding winding cells.
It was mentioned, wind in the normal manner, then when you get to the end of the length of "bolt", stop, make a abrupt 90 degree turn, pull the wires back to the start of the 1st coil layer, place thin insulation over the wire returning back over ontop of the other coils, so there are no shorts, then continue to wind the bifilar wires, when you get to the end, do the same all over again, and again, and again.

Jeanna and Bill, can either of you both remember if NS mentioned in his patient the above method of winding his coils, I certainly carnt, but he just may have deliberately not mentioned it, and this just mabe the key we have been looking for. A close up look at one of his patient drawings shows an extreamly neat wires. hmmm some more.

I think this is what is going on, and it should not be happenning
When you wind a coil in bifilar, you get to the end, if you go back accross the previous turns, the wires form a X, when the cell tryes to work, it nulls out the energy as the magnetic fields cancell Nths and Sths out. This gives zero output.
I remember someone mentioned their cell got warm ot hot, this magnetit energy cancellation would form heat as it happens.

The same thing occurs winding torids, if you wind over your existing coil, it nulls or cancells out the production of energy, as I have had this pointed out to myself, by others. One of my torids got extreamly hot, it hasnt happened again as I changed its connections.

Theory is the NS cell (called a battery in the patient) is supposed to continuously have output, but it has been evading those who have been replicating it, not their fault mind you as this is a real tricky one to get going.
Their seems to be no existing actual stubblefield coils (batteries) that one can rat (take apart) to see how Nathan Stubblefield made his cells, so this makes it difficult to replicate.

You might have noticed Bill and Jeanna making reference to Stubblefield in their posts, take it from me, they are the "ones" who know just about all there is to know on this topic.

This was a good find MK1, you have jogged my memory deeply, and some things (puzzle bits) are beginning to fall into place, hmmmm very interresting this is.

Thanks MK1

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 23, 2009, 08:54:06 AM

@all

Cogratulations to all that have made a successful replication of @gadgetmall Bedini Circuit Self Charger!!!
I have not.

But in the meantime I do. What about a composition of the making of a toroid coil?
Keep the good work!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 23, 2009, 09:17:43 AM

well everyone nice work ....

im back to work .... on this coil .... darn INVESTORS i have not met any so CHEEP!!

may go looking for others that dont care bout there change.....

200 bucks at a time dont do SH!T

I HOPE YOU READ THIS.......

IM OPENING UP ALL OF MY STUFF FOR SALE OR INVESTMENT .... ANYONE BUYING ....

I CAN NO LONGER CARRIE ON THE WAY I HAVE BEEN

I HAVE ARRANGED A TEAM!! AND GUESS WHAT WERE ALL BROKE ...

YET ALL HAVE GIVEN THERE BEST FOR FREE ...

IF I DO NOT GET MORE INVESTMENT

IM A START PRODUCTION ALONE....

IM OFFERING PERSONAL 1 0N 1 TEACHING ... AS WELL

IST!

BOUT SICK OF CHASEING MONEY TO FINISH MY WORK ....

SO TIME TO SELL SOME STUFF....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 23, 2009, 09:19:16 AM

@jeanna

Is it this what you meant with your explanation?
Feel free to do any changes to the graphic.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 23, 2009, 09:23:32 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 23, 2009, 09:17:43 AM
well everyone nice work ....

im back to work .... on this coil .... darn INVESTORS i have not met any so CHEEP!!

may go looking for others that dont care bout there change.....

200 bucks at a time dont do SH!T

I HOPE YOU READ THIS.......

IM OPENING UP ALL OF MY STUFF FOR SALE OR INVESTMENT .... ANYONE BUYING ....

I CAN NO LONGER CARRIE ON THE WAY I HAVE BEEN

I HAVE ARRANGED A TEAM!! AND GUESS WHAT WERE ALL BROKE ...

YET ALL HAVE GIVEN THERE BEST FOR FREE ...

IF I DO NOT GET MORE INVESTMENT

IM A START PRODUCTION ALONE....

IM OFFERING PERSONAL 1 0N 1 TEACHING ... AS WELL

IST!

BOUT SICK OF CHASEING MONEY TO FINISH MY WORK ....

SO TIME TO SELL SOME STUFF....

I would like to buy some things like coils and stuff, but now I am unemployed.
Good luck brother!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 23, 2009, 09:35:30 AM

when i finally make this fly you will be no longer unemployed ...

TRUST ME YOU ARE FAR FROM ALONE ......

THERE IS ONLY A FEW TEAM MEMBERS THAT HAVE JOBS CURRENTLY ....

SOON ENOUGH MY TEAM WILL BE OVER 20 INVENTORS :o

WITH LITTERLY 1000'S OF INVENTIONS .... GO BIG OR GO HOME ...

IST!

1 of my almost investors ... ( i called the deal off.....) for dumb reasons .... as i have learned so far .... was 1 of the BIGGEST LED STREET LIGHT GUYS IN CANADA......

I MAY JUST GIVE HIM A CALL!!!!

BET HE COULD USE A JT STYLE UNIT AND A SOLAR PANNEL .....

FOR EVERY STREET LIGHT IN CANADA...... ;D 8)

WHAT DO YOU THINK.....

i may just sell 1 device to fund all the rest.... :) and guess what i will still own all of my work ....

in sted of only 40% broken between the inventors ..... i anit a buisness guy .... i aint a money guy ....

i try to be a nice guy that shares .... :)

the small board i have made ... will do the job fine ... it would power 5 of his street lights wich consume 120 w currently ....each :P

and i beleave his lights are some of the MOST EFFICIENT OUT THERE CURRENTLY .... i could be wrong tho ... i hear he has no problem selling them

next time your in toronto look around you may just see them ......

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 23, 2009, 10:15:53 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 23, 2009, 09:35:30 AM
when i finally make this fly you will be no longer unemployed ...

TRUST ME YOU ARE FAR FROM ALONE ......

THERE IS ONLY A FEW TEAM MEMBERS THAT HAVE JOBS CURRENTLY ....

SOON ENOUGH MY TEAM WILL BE OVER 20 INVENTORS :o

WITH LITTERLY 1000'S OF INVENTIONS .... GO BIG OR GO HOME ...

IST!

1 of my almost investors ... ( i called the deal off.....) for dumb reasons .... as i have learned so far .... was 1 of the BIGGEST LED STREET LIGHT GUYS IN CANADA......

I MAY JUST GIVE HIM A CALL!!!!

BET HE COULD USE A JT STYLE UNIT AND A SOLAR PANNEL .....

FOR EVERY STREET LIGHT IN CANADA...... ;D 8)

WHAT DO YOU THINK.....

i may just sell 1 device to fund all the rest.... :) and guess what i will still own all of my work ....

in sted of only 40% broken between the inventors ..... i anit a buisness guy .... i aint a money guy ....

i try to be a nice guy that shares .... :)

the small board i have made ... will do the job fine ... it would power 5 of his street lights wich consume 120 w currently ....each :P

and i beleave his lights are some of the MOST EFFICIENT OUT THERE CURRENTLY .... i could be wrong tho ... i hear he has no problem selling them

next time your in toronto look around you may just see them ......

Thank you @innovation.

I think the sky is the limit.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 23, 2009, 10:31:44 AM

WE SET OUR OWN LIMITS.. :)

THERE ARE NO LIMITS...

never was

ist!

now that im back to work on my toy ..... i was thinking of winding teflon tape over my welding rods ... what ya all think?

i put groups of 9 rods ... x 12 groups need to buy more rods ....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: mdmiller on January 23, 2009, 12:28:07 PM

something to keep in mind as you dream about uses for the JT

I made another JT this time using a transformer from an old clock radio instead of a toroid as suggested by MK1. I was happy with the 55 volts it was putting out and hooked it up to an old car battery out in the garage that had been declared totally dead three years ago and has just been waiting for disposal. The old battery started getting a massage by the JT, the battery voltage increasing from 6.5V to 7.5V in ten minutes, but suddenly quit. The temp in the garage is 20F, and the chemical reaction in the 1.5V carbon-zinc battery in the JT had come to an end. I understand lithiums are supposed to be good in the cold, I'll have to try that next.

Now, I see why my neighbors solar landscape lights don't work well in the winter, I thought it was the sun.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 23, 2009, 12:56:59 PM

@IST
Unfortunately there is patents on the Joule thief technology currently used by the government They have a piezo generator that uses the slightest movement to produce 3.5 volts and higher for the military soldier to power stuff take a look !! http://www.rlpenergy.com/ they are building these things on clothes and stuff .. Also i would love to claim the overunity prize but i can't because of Patents .. hers a link you can BUY there Joule thief copywrited module http://www.rlpenergy.com/energy_harv/index.html they Beat us to it Joule-Thiefâ,,¢ Click on the Technology Link . Interesting grafts and schematics .
Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 23, 2009, 01:36:21 PM

not to shoot you down bro.... but as i have said there many ways lol .. 8)

but what do i know

ist!

this is the device of 1000 styles :o 8)

so because a switch is pattended i cant use one ... oooooo darn ... i better invent another they dont have

sparks got 5 mins.... lol ;) i got this high speed rotary style plasma sw idea im flipping round in the back ground of my mind ... ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 23, 2009, 01:54:18 PM

@ Gadgetmall:

Great links, thanks! They are using pizo ceramic materials here which is a different twist than what most of us are doing. Hey, they have patented the Joule Thief but not my Joule Pirate, ha ha. The pizo materials inclusion is what makes it different enough for the patent as the basic joule thief technology has been around far too long for anyone to patent now. They have to show a major improvement on an existing technology which apparently they did. Don't get me started on patents, they are not worth anything to folks like us. I have been down that road 20 years ago and it is not what most folks think it is. Open source is much better for many reasons, including financial, if that is what someone wants.

My Joule Pirate will be different enough to patent but I will not ever even think of doing so. And, once posted on here, no one else can either because you have to prove you are the inventor of any device and if it is was published first by someone else, then, no patent. So, in other words, this was good info to have but it does not deter me in the least. Great post.

@ Jim:

Wow, you are tracking your mice with cctv cams now? You should get an IR lens and then you can see them at night when they are most active. You can also wire up a motion detector to the cams so they only turn on when the mice are active. Then, you can get object recognition software to track each individual mouse and hook that up to a gas laser/trigger mechanism mounted on a 3 axis pan and tilt head and......poof! A high tech seek and destroy mouse trap!!!!
I still say it is easier to wire the Fuji circuit to the mouse trap or to an aluminum pan set on the floor with some cheese on it.....mouse steps on the pan.....Zap!!!! Best yet, get a cat. They are great company and perfect hunters. Great info on the scooters and the stepping motors. I didn't know any of that. Thank you.

@MK 1:

That earth battery diagram you posted was not Stubblefield's. There are several patents that are similar, but different. Stubblefield's was just as Jim described without the use of the sulfur cake which would degrade over time. As Jim mentioned, there are 2 earth battery topic on OU here that explore just about all of the patents and devices in some detail. A lot of experiments are posted there as well. Not to sidetrack our topic here but, in case anyone is not aware, Nathan Stubblefield (Murry, Kentucky) invented and operated the world's first cell phone technology in the late 1800's. he installed a phone system in Murry, KY for the town, lit his farm and house, heated his house, powered the town's phone system (they were not on the grid) all with his earth batteries. It make fascinating reading. There is a monument to him in Murry, KY naming him "The father of radio" as he beat Marconi by many years. When his methods are examined more closely, I agree with most who deemed his device a cell phone as opposed to radio. We had some confusion on our topics about the 2 types of coils he used. One was for the power (earth battery) and the other was the transceiver coil for the phone. Looking closely at all of the pictures we could find, I am not sure if I can tell which is which. Basically, he would take a few earth batteries and stick them in the ground. Then he would stick his telephone transceiver into the ground as well. Then, he would go some miles away (up to 5 miles was reported) and do the same thing. He then could speak to the folks at the first cell or station and they could speak and hear him as well. he was sending the waves through the earth (ground) as well as powering the devices with the earth. (earth batteries) As I said, fascinating history.

The earth batteries I am going to use with the JT are the electrode type, like Gadgetmall's. Carbon rods and magnesium blocks.

@ Jeanna:

You are right...the "print" trick seems to be disabled. I had not noticed that. It was a good feature for scanning back through a lot of pages. Great work on your wire diameter testing. I did some more supercap tests last night and I will make a video if I get my work done today fast enough. (I keep putting off the paperwork by being on here) I am glad you have those leds to test with. I still get a thrill when I wire up something on the breadboard, and it actually works... ha ha. Of course, I have only been using one now for a few weeks. I made a circuit last night and...it did not work the first time. Well, I got up to get a beer to think about what might be wrong and my cat jumped up onto the table and, of course, my breadboard. Would you believe it all lit up then? Evidently, the leads on the supercaps are very thin and I have them stuck right into the breadboard and they must have been loose. She fixed it. It just goes to show me that I never know where I am going to get help from next.

@ All:

More later.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 23, 2009, 01:57:31 PM

@ALL
Hi . No i did not Mean to say anything to discourage . I just know that you cant use a patented circuit . not the switch or led but the concept . Of coarse yall know that . There are things the Government has that you think are science fiction . I personally have a relative who retired from NASA who is under a secrecy act of the US government and he told me some things that are here now that will never be disclosed to the general public. All of wildest dreams are already a reality . Its going to be HARD to put some of them Out that we make . That is why i am just happy with the free energy i make and don't expect to market any of it because it will either bring you unwelcome Visitors to your House or possible
Your Bones picked by buzzards in the Desert :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 23, 2009, 02:06:47 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on January 23, 2009, 01:57:31 PM
@ALL
Hi . No i did not Mean to say anything to discourage . I just know that you cant use a patented circuit . not the switch or led but the concept . Of coarse yall know that . There are things the Government has that you think are science fiction . I personally have a relative who retired from NASA who is under a secrecy act of the US government and he told me some things that are here now that will never be disclosed to the general public. All of wildest dreams are already a reality . Its going to be HARD to put some of them Out that we make . That is why i am just happy with the free energy i make and don't expect to market any of it because it will either bring you unwelcome Visitors to your House or possible
Your Bones picked by buzzards in the Desert :)

You can use a patented circuit or any patented device, as long as you are not going to sell it. (That's probably what you meant anyway) Like most here, I want to make stuff I can use, and share it with others so they can use. I replied to your other post, but you posted the above before my post posted. You may want to look at it. (Or not) I agree that there are many things not seeing the light of day for security reasons, or because they don't think we, the people, can handle it. (Of course, they might be right about that last part.)

"Your Bones picked by buzzards in the Desert" In Jim's case, his bones would be picked by mice. I sure hope he wins the war down there.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 23, 2009, 02:19:43 PM

@pirate . thanks i read it and i posted during before you posted i got a warning on my post before i posted ..SHEEEEESH .. :) yea im going to use anything i build . they will have to fight me for it !i want what you want . to use and share what me make .
@Jim
Had the same problem . I got me one of those Live Traps .Macdonald's and other restaurants use them you wind it up ,put some peanutbutter in the hole and the next morning you got a hotel full of Mice . It will catch up to 25 per wind . If you ask me what i do with them all i can say is i have a friend that dont have to but snake food anymore :o

As far as the WOLF RATS are concerned the cat is scared of them as they are as big as her .. 22 takes care of them ..they don't come round no more .. :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 23, 2009, 02:42:10 PM

the coil

ist

in the works

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on January 23, 2009, 03:11:32 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 23, 2009, 02:42:10 PM
the coil

ist

in the works

Looks Nice ITS

You should be able to use just one of the coils as the joule thief.
Then use the others coils as slaves off the transistor of the JT.

When I tried it with mine it didn't seem to draw much more power.
And the other coils still put out a Lot of power.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 23, 2009, 04:31:46 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on January 23, 2009, 09:19:16 AM
@jeanna

Is it this what you meant with your explanation?
Feel free to do any changes to the graphic.

Jesus

@jesus,
My graphics software is still gone, so I will leave it to you to mod your pic, if I may.

BTW thanks for posting the evilmadscientist pictures of making a joule thief little toroid style. It helps, I am sure.

!- the rectifier diode is only used to measure the rectified voltage coming off the single turn. It may be what you mean, but I want to be clear that the voltage going into the array of lights is NOT rectified.

1a- so, the drawing of the single wind around the hand wound toroid should perhaps show that without the diode bridge, the secondary feeds to the array of lights.

Does that make sense?

2- The led you call blue or white is the one I removed after I was sure the circuit was working.

Thanks for making this drawing.

(I have even lost the original of that which I posted in december.)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 23, 2009, 04:42:34 PM

@ all

The reason i posted the earth battery is it is a jt.Yes many worked on Stubbulfield but none got it to a useful voltage,There is magnetic factor to raise the voltage , most a have seen are jokes sorry! But we can do better now.

It takes the galvanic voltage and pulse the magnetic core with a pickup coil on it for output.The jt to transistor are needed because earth gives us some nice ac .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 23, 2009, 04:51:30 PM

@ MK 1:

I guess that depends on what you define as useful? If you mean just lighting a few leds (forever, for free) which is what we did, then that is correct. If you mean running a heat pump from it, no we did not get that far. My plan is to use the JT with the EB and maybe light some big stuff this time....maybe. (still not a lot of power in the scheme of things) If you have a way to up the power output, I am all ears. It won't be too long before spring is here and I am willing to try all sorts of things outside in my little garden space. No experiment is too crazy is my motto.

I am still trying to figure out how to wire my solar cells. I finally completed my paperwork. I need to teach my cat how to type.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tbest on January 23, 2009, 04:54:48 PM

Hi all
Perfect work here, but this thread goes too fast. :)

Quote from: gadgetmall on January 23, 2009, 12:56:59 PM
@IST
Unfortunately there is patents on the Joule thief technology currently used by the government They have a piezo generator that uses the slightest movement to produce 3.5 volts and higher for the military soldier to power stuff take a look !! http://www.rlpenergy.com/ they are building these things on clothes and stuff .. Also i would love to claim the overunity prize but i can't because of Patents .. hers a link you can BUY there Joule thief copywrited module http://www.rlpenergy.com/energy_harv/index.html they Beat us to it Joule-Thiefâ,,¢ Click on the Technology Link . Interesting grafts and schematics .
Al

The joule thief to "rlpenergy" is probably something like "shake generator" combined with this:
http://www.creative-science.org.uk/piezo1.html & a little complicated joule thief?
Thank you for your excellent work.
Sorry for my English.
Tomas

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 23, 2009, 04:56:47 PM

@pirate

I will built one , that will be enough to replace our 1.5 battery source, I know some already do but, really i looked at the pat yesterday and it not galvanic, also tap water in not a good electrolyte . He said water electrolyte salt water is one, also the outside coil that acts as a magnetic core transformer raising the voltage of the galvanic reaction.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 23, 2009, 04:58:55 PM

tbest:

Welcome Tomas! I am glad you can join our merry band of experimenters here. Yes, it does go too fast at times but, if the alternative is a "dead" topic, I will take fast any day. I just wish we had all of the drawings and pictures located in one easy spot for folks to see without looking through hundreds of pages.

Anyway, welcome aboard.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 23, 2009, 05:27:27 PM

OK bill,

Here's an idea for you... as if you lacked ideas! ;D

I am testing for the lowest level that still gives activity.
MK1 is testing for the magnetic component etc etc
ist is looking to pop the garage with a capacitor carousel.

How about you making a bigger one. But do yourself a favor and keep all the rest of the components the same. See exactly what you can excite from 1.5v etc with one of those bigger toroids you just got... but with the same number of turns and the same kinds of wire etc.

We are a good team.

If you don't I will, but I still have managed to avoid buying a big toroid.

btw, I only mentioned 3 of us. I really mean that we are all very much needed to make this what it is. (the facets of the diamond sparkling and all that)

Maybe Stephan can make us a diamond glyph.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 23, 2009, 05:33:52 PM

Quote from: slayer007 on January 23, 2009, 03:11:32 PM

Looks Nice IST ;)

You should be able to use just one of the coils as the joule thief.
Then use the others coils as slaves off the transistor of the JT.

When I tried it with mine it didn't seem to draw much more power.
And the other coils still put out a Lot of power.

thank you slayer this is awsome advice ....

hey some times i do thease little things to see who catches it lol but if you look back to my coil pics ... you will see 1 flipped ;)

now if you look at my lol ....... controler lol ah not now ;) not there yet

its ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 23, 2009, 06:04:31 PM

@Slayer007

QuoteYou should be able to use just one of the coils as the joule thief.
Then use the others coils as slaves off the transistor of the JT.

When I tried it with mine it didn't seem to draw much more power.
And the other coils still put out a Lot of power.

Would you please describe how you'd do this?

It seems a great idea, but I don't get how you would connect this.

Would you put the same common for all then put the "slave"s (bad word!) in a parallel way to the C and E of the transistor?

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on January 23, 2009, 06:32:07 PM

Quote from: jeanna on January 23, 2009, 06:04:31 PM
@Slayer007
Would you please describe how you'd do this?

It seems a great idea, but I don't get how you would connect this.

Would you put the same common for all then put the "slave"s (bad word!) in a parallel way to the C and E of the transistor?

thanks,

jeanna

Hello jeanna

Yes I would just run the negative side of the coil to the transistor then the positive side of the coil back to source positive.
I added a coil that was made just like the first one to the JT circuit and the curent draw only went up about 20 mill amps more.

I then added three more coils all differant and the curent draw went up around 20 mill amps for everone attached.
I allso added a transformer like in one of my videos were I attached them to a little JT and it put out so much voltage it fried my meter when I tried to read it.

The meter made a screeching sound then it sounded like an ignition coil inside the meter. ???

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 23, 2009, 07:00:31 PM

this is where it GETS REAL INTERSTING ... :)

ist

for this unit i will hook it up as you describe ...

but still a ways away from that

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 23, 2009, 07:03:00 PM

@ all
Mice pick my bones, lol, loved that one bill, ha ha.

Very interresting about the patient question about making something that is patented.......
My view is, if someone made something that was already done and this person honestly didn't know, then forgive him/her

But if there is a group of inventors (like us all) who want to improve a previous device, then I say go for it.
I don't see me being able to mass produce anything so no one needs to fear me from underpinning their item, if I haven't got something I need and can't afford to buy it, I try to make it, my way, my design.

I'm just a curious fellow, that likes to take something apart just as the next fellow, first time was my toy electric forklift I got in the early 50s from unka stan, this escalated to my pushbike, mower engines, ohhh now I'm in memory lane lol.

@ ist,
What say I pull apart a old electric iron cored welder and feed 24v into it via a home made inverter circuit, this should give me 240v AC out at several amps, now this just could have possibilities. Feed it with my big 24v 300 bats outside.
First I will plug it in, connect the meter to it and see what the AC out put is, then feed the same voltage back into it, same as some of us are doing with a second toroid with the JT.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 23, 2009, 07:05:48 PM

@ IST:

You better be careful up there in Canada. Just look what the Canadian government did to John Hutchison. (according to him) They seized all of his lab equipment and took all of his stuff he was playing with. Of course, his experiments may have wiped out every TV within 20 miles so, maybe they had to do something, ha ha. Just be careful.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 23, 2009, 07:32:31 PM

Quote from: jeanna on January 23, 2009, 04:31:46 PM
@jesus,
My graphics software is still gone, so I will leave it to you to mod your pic, if I may.

BTW thanks for posting the evilmadscientist pictures of making a joule thief little toroid style. It helps, I am sure.

!- the rectifier diode is only used to measure the rectified voltage coming off the single turn. It may be what you mean, but I want to be clear that the voltage going into the array of lights is NOT rectified.

1a- so, the drawing of the single wind around the hand wound toroid should perhaps show that without the diode bridge, the secondary feeds to the array of lights.

Does that make sense?

2- The led you call blue or white is the one I removed after I was sure the circuit was working.

Thanks for making this drawing.

(I have even lost the original of that which I posted in december.)

jeanna

I will make the changes you recomend and repost tomorrow.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 23, 2009, 08:33:47 PM

this ring is far from done...

it needs to be contained ...

we will get there tho soon enough ...

ist

maybe a steel belt round the out side ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 23, 2009, 08:40:23 PM

Quote from: slayer007 on January 23, 2009, 06:32:07 PM
Hello jeanna

Yes I would just run the negative side of the coil to the transistor then the positive side of the coil back to source positive.
I added a coil that was made just like the first one to the JT circuit and the curent draw only went up about 20 mill amps more.

I then added three more coils all differant and the curent draw went up around 20 mill amps for everone attached.
I allso added a transformer like in one of my videos were I attached them to a little JT and it put out so much voltage it fried my meter when I tried to read it.

The meter made a screeching sound then it sounded like an ignition coil inside the meter. ???

I see what you mean.
It is ALSO my experience and very believable, that this would be as you say. Each toroid circuit of mine takes 22 milliamps. So, adding them would be the same.

I need to catch up on your videos. Thanks for mentioning it. I saw gadgetmail's motor video last night. this is so excellent.

sorry to hear about your meter.

This is something unconventional for sure.

@jesus,
Thanks for helping make things so clear. It is helping all of us, I am sure.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Freezer on January 23, 2009, 09:29:06 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 23, 2009, 07:05:48 PM

You might try energizing your earth battery with the camera cell with pulsed dc using some diodes. The effect doesn't last but it's an interesting effect. The cell I made here is nothing special with only 2 layers. 1 layer copper and other layer iron. I did wrap the 1 layer with 2 copper windings for another experiment, but here I only used 1 of the copper windings for the water battery.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fR8ek_wFSI&feature=channel_page

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 23, 2009, 11:17:11 PM

:)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: infringer on January 23, 2009, 11:47:00 PM

I have an idea for you ist why not sell mod kits to modify mp3 players and wireless computer mice and other portable electronics....

I see a great market for that!

Hows that for innovation at your station. I would love to have one myself I can solder and such myself. Or even a single unit for charging that would double as a case for the player.

-infringer-

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 24, 2009, 12:35:31 AM

@IST WOW !

That Look like an Intergalactic FLux Star drive Capacitor !! Or the Key Element for the Stargate SCI FI Man SCI FI. .. Definably undercover Gadget !

@All Thanks for the comments for the Video of my Selfcharger . Im hooking it up to a Voltage Divider +joule thief and run some white leds for a perpetual lighting system . I have two more im going to build and put those on 2 Big 200 pound 6 volts and see if i can do anything with those ..I'll have more Vids comming of this one and the other two when there completed .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 24, 2009, 12:35:46 AM

@ Freezer:

Great video! I would have never thought of that. Great job!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 24, 2009, 01:09:36 AM

Hi everybody,

I will be concise, if I can.

I found a pretty good limit to the 30 led array by putting a 12K resistor at the base of the 2N3904 transistor on my hybrid joule thief. This is the same one I used yesterday to test effect of thickness of wire on a single turn secondary.

With the 12K resistor and the 10 ohm (9.5) ohm resistor in series at the pos battery terminal so I can interpolate the amps, I can see the lights, but they are very dim.

The total Amps drawn by the circuit is 0.062V / 9.5 = .0065A OK that is 6 1/2 milliamps. for all 30 or about 220uA each. cool - but I can hardly see them. If I use the same secondary wrapped one time on 1 led, it is bright. So at 6 1/2 milliamps it is bright. I know that to be the right amperage to make this particular light shine brightly, so, I believe this number.

Now, to compare the amperage or voltage of the circuit when this single turn secondary is connected to the array.

They are all the same.

Again.

What is different is the brightness of the lights at the same amperage draw and with different thickness of wire of secondary.

But it is the reverse of what I expected.

The thinner wire is brighter than the thicker wire.

Maybe someone else can run this test for us. I think it needs to be replicated.

I did do this over a few times, because it is so unexpected, but it would be great if someone else could have a whack at it. You don't need to have 30leds, just 6 will do.

Use a 12k resistor at the base of the 3904. If you do not have an ammeter, use a 1 ohm or 10 ohm and ohms law to figure the amps draw from your battery by your joule thief ckt with this highly restricted base. Then wrap one time around the jt toroid using a secondary and place the ends of this secondary wire on either side of the 1st led, then repeat with a different gauge wire.

I got 3 levels:
verrry dim - 30 gauge
much dimmer - 24 gauge and
barely visible - 22 gauge .

The thicker the wire the less bright the array.

I guess this makes me really say this is all about frequency to the point that even the secondary wire is involved in the frequency. The heavier wire I suppose should vibrate more slowly than the thinnest wire.

What do you think?

Thanks to xee for the directions to restrict the base current.
Thanks to MK1 for suggesting an in depth look at the thickness of wire question.
Thanks to jesus for his upcoming drawing.

ooo la la,

jeanna

I will check the rectified voltage and edit this when done. I forgot....
EDIT:
the rectified voltage across the ends of the secondary turned one time around the toroid is 1.11v on all of them. [just for the heck of it, I went around the middle one a second time and the rectified voltage was 1.86V.-but we knew that already.]

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 24, 2009, 02:37:36 AM

@ Jeanna

Congratulations, you now have a way of detecting very small differences in the transformer performance. I am not sure, but I suspect that maybe the differences you are seeing are due to the larger wire increasing the capacitive coupling between the turns of the two windings used for the basic JT. This is equivalent to adding a small capacitance between the base and collector of the transistor which changes the transistor performance slightly. Just as a test, try holding your finger on the windings and see if that decreases the brightness of the LEDs. Your finger will increase the capacitive coupling between the windings. If this is the reason for the differences you are seeing, then by making the secondary winding a separate coil around the toroid instead of winding it over the top of the other windings should reduce this effect.

EDIT: It would be interesting to see if the LEDs are brighter when the two coils used for the basic JT are separated as Mk1 does than when the two coils are wrapped bifilar together as is normally done. The added capacitance between the base and collector will be less when the two coils are not close together (but the inductive coupling will be the same). I always use separated coils but I never actually did this test.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 24, 2009, 03:04:12 AM

@jeanna

Thanks !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 24, 2009, 08:23:33 AM

@all

There have been a lot of new advances in our knowledge here.
I hope that our knowledge be solid and true. The next generation will be the ones that will enjoy our efforts. Our children.
I have seen repercussions of our experiments here all over the world.
So let us do our best effort to do something positive for the ones that will stay on this world.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 24, 2009, 10:04:19 AM

Jenna,

When I get out to the shop, I will try it. One question, did you happen to try wrapping maybe 5 or 6 strands of the small wire once around the torroid and connect the ends together? I don't think it will increase the current to the LED's but it should increase the voltage giving you a higher wattage to the LED's. I think I am going to try this too.

Tim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 24, 2009, 10:18:41 AM

great work just on time of course :)...

lol

im drawing up my compleat ring so all can bee seen .. it is to scale as well ;)

the coils pictured in my coil are not compleate yet the secondaries are what i have laying around ... they will be re wound when the proper gage is found ... ;D

im gonna cut my tubes to a certan length .. and my welding rods to 6"

will atempt this today ..

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 24, 2009, 11:06:18 AM

This thread is neat because it shows you how to get high frequency high voltage out of a chemical reaction. The next challange is to magnify this effect.
This will require resonance. This allows you to take something that is happening very quickly on a small system and have it happen slower on a large system. So it's like when you want to topple something over that is very heavy. You push on it just at the right time fast at a little spot on the mass. It gets swinging back and forth until someone on top is getting a heck of a ride. Now the observer on top will get the ride less any damping or resistance to the resonance and some energy will be needed to have the oberver have some fun. A loaded electric motor can be an inductor in a resonant circuit with proper capacitance in series or paralllel. Your input once the system is swaying if everything is tuned will be to overcome just conductor and electrolytic losses. You of course now need feedback so that your oscillations don't topple the tree the kid is having fun on.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on January 24, 2009, 11:24:11 AM

Quote from: Sprocket on January 22, 2009, 11:20:35 PM
Here is a good site that should help with regard to capacitor capacities:

http://www.powerstream.com/battery-capacity-calculations.htm (http://www.powerstream.com/battery-capacity-calculations.htm)

Even a 400F low-voltage cap still comes nowhere near alkaline/nimh battery storage. Also note the additional 'drawbacks':

Also, there is no danger from touching low-voltage cap. leads, irrespective of their capacities, as the resistance-path through the human body is far too high for significant current to flow - grab the terminals of a 12v car battery to prove it to yourself! Shorting them together is another matter however! :D

well that sites interesting, but i think he got his math confused either that or google is wrong. according to a quick search done by google it determined 1f was 1amp and of course batteries are rated in mah, but usually have 2.7 amps of rated charge, now granted a capacitors voltage drops with the energy stored at a relatively calculated rate so its 5v 5a then 4v 4a but lets face it with a nickel metal hydride battery being at the best ive seen 3.6a and bill finding a cap for 400f or 400 amp according to google. theres no competition,.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on January 24, 2009, 11:40:06 AM

Quote from: electricme on January 23, 2009, 03:32:46 AM
@ bill,
Some time ago (I think it was you) mentioned on the JT thread about using a wind generator, anyway, I went out to the Dalby wreckers and bought a kids Raser electric scooter, 24v setup, for $5.
This has a chain drive on it so it will be easier to setup, I have a tower in the back yard so its a matter of relocating the tower as the tree grew around it, and fit a prop to the wheel. I believe these small motors can put out quite a few amps.

you will also want to eliminate eddy currents, that motor may not be the most effecient to use but a capacitor or capacitor array linked accross the motor (make sure its a one way trip from motor use diods) the capacitor will charge with no resistance and then be able to power the charger curcuit. if there is ANY resistance in copper then it becomes eddy currents, the more resistance the more the eddy and the harder it is to turn your generator! for best results air core picup coils should be used with a strong neodeium magnet.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on January 24, 2009, 11:58:18 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on January 23, 2009, 12:56:59 PM
@IST
Unfortunately there is patents on the Joule thief technology currently used by the government They have a piezo generator that uses the slightest movement to produce 3.5 volts and higher for the military soldier to power stuff take a look !! http://www.rlpenergy.com/ they are building these things on clothes and stuff .. Also i would love to claim the overunity prize but i can't because of Patents .. hers a link you can BUY there Joule thief copywrited module http://www.rlpenergy.com/energy_harv/index.html they Beat us to it Joule-Thiefâ,,¢ Click on the Technology Link . Interesting grafts and schematics .
Al

that technology i would venture to guess is nothing like what ist has been playing with, they are using quarts to generate electricity in a curcuit and they are using sophisticated electronic curcuits to do all this with. the juoule theif we know and love isnt even in that curcuit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 24, 2009, 01:17:31 PM

@Artic_Knight
Nothing Beats the fun we are having with this little circuit and again i only posted the site after looking for more projects i happed to run across it they say and i quote:technology to scavenge energy from ambient sources and convert it to usable electrical power to be stored in batteries or capacitors for further use. The energy harvesting system consists of a Joule-Thiefâ,,¢ Smart Energy Beamâ,,¢ and Energy Keyâ,,¢ collection and storage electronics. In the recent past, energy harvesting from the environment, including human movement, has generated a lot of research interest and many available ambient energy sources such as thermal, optical, mechanical, fluidic, etc. have been investigated.

and i know they probably have a much more sophisticated joule thievs using micro SMT and stuff unlike large torroids . I saw a tiny circuit of a joule thief that fits ina screw in bulb to convert a maglight .using a tiny ferrite bead . Cool .. Also hers a circuit i found that boost the current

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 24, 2009, 01:27:53 PM

nice unit gadgetmall ... 8)

can you still pick up interferience on an am ?

with that small unit?

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 24, 2009, 01:40:32 PM

@All and to Forum Operator /owner

I suggest that there Be a Files Section added so all the diagrams pictures etc . can be posted in one place Zipped up in the name of the thread so we can have all the information in one file and one place the files section ... Anyone Second the Motion ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 24, 2009, 02:59:58 PM

I Agree, and here is my contribution.

Tim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 24, 2009, 05:14:23 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on January 24, 2009, 01:40:32 PM
@All and to Forum Operator /owner

I suggest that there Be a Files Section added so all the diagrams pictures etc . can be posted in one place Zipped up in the name of the thread so we can have all the information in one file and one place the files section ... Anyone Second the Motion ?

I second the motion too.
I have nothing to contribute at this time though.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Sprocket on January 24, 2009, 05:55:27 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on January 24, 2009, 11:24:11 AM
well that sites interesting, but i think he got his math confused either that or google is wrong. according to a quick search done by google it determined 1f was 1amp and of course batteries are rated in mah, but usually have 2.7 amps of rated charge, now granted a capacitors voltage drops with the energy stored at a relatively calculated rate so its 5v 5a then 4v 4a but lets face it with a nickel metal hydride battery being at the best ive seen 3.6a and bill finding a cap for 400f or 400 amp according to google. theres no competition,.

Amps measure the rate of current flow, which includes a time variable, so they cannot be used as units of charge as you are implying! 1 Farad equals 1 Coulomb, which in turn is the charge a capacitor will aquire with 1 amp flowing for 1 second for its potential difference to increase by 1 volt. Whereas the battery capacities you quote are in amp-hours...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on January 24, 2009, 06:05:12 PM

guys im sorry if i come accross as angry or attacking, ive done and continue to do a lot of research on electronics and especially magnetism. i cannot say too much at this time but what i can say is i have discovered a lot of "views" on electronics that with my current research is not true. i have not broken any laws of physics in fact i have mearly had to enforce these laws and break "views" with them to further my research! with any luck i will have a viable product to display here for all to use as free energy, either that or my research for what ever reason may be proven false but i cannot see that happening as my projects have been fundamentally sound.

you guys are doing a great job and having a lot of fun with it! the most important part of science that seems to be lost is the fun in the experiments!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 24, 2009, 06:35:24 PM

@all

We should try little bulbs instead of led.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 24, 2009, 07:13:36 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 24, 2009, 06:35:24 PM
@all

We should try little bulbs instead of led.

i kinda need a break from this bigg coil anyways ...

what kind of bulbs you have in mind..

i just happen to have litterly 1000's... 12 vdc im not sure the rateing but i bet they will be just perfect ...

ist

just in the middle of a single shoot board to see 100 % input vs out put in 1 charge of a cap ... caps are same values....in and out side my idea is to charge in cap to 1.5 vdc from an aa battery ... then turn on the unit ... till cap is drained and read in out cap

to see if in fact this gives the desired results....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 24, 2009, 07:27:37 PM

@ist

A 12v bulbs is ok, the basic idea is to get a regulated voltage out. By using those little bulb and bring them to full brightness .

If you have 12 volt bulb .5 amp , you should have some regulated power. Don't forget 1 turn is about 3vac(pulse dc) having coils in parallel will raise the power. Since there is connection to the battery on the pickup coil , there is only potential energy and is hard to have correct reading.

A 1.5 bulb for feedback to source.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on January 24, 2009, 07:56:20 PM

you will most likely not be able to hook this bulb up like the LED you may find that you need to remove the LED and run it as is with the output from the transistor filtering through the bulb, reason i say this is because the bulb will allow any current to flow through it or so i believe i havent tested it yet. if that is the case it cannot build up the needed voltage to power it! however if you allow the current to build in the coil it will eventually reach the breakdown voltage of the transistor which should be about 9 volts and that may get some light from that bulb! attatched is a drawing of what i speak of.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 24, 2009, 07:59:23 PM

@Artic_Knight

You do know that my pickup coil is not connected to the circuit in any way , and i can light a 120vac neon bulb with it. page 125.

Thanks for the info.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 24, 2009, 08:04:24 PM

@artic-knight
Don't worry if you think you came down a bit hard, no offence taken.
We all are breaking the usual thinking of the way electricity is, I personally think
there are various types of electricity.
One being "hot", it creates heat when taped to it, like the stuff the world makes right now.
Then there is the "cold" stuff, the one that produces a cold reaction when used.
I have read reports the electric motor had frost on it, the harder it worked the colder it got.

Yep there could be even other types of electricity that have yet to be discovered.

@all
Using a bulb should work ok, but use a "grain of wheat bulb" first.
Find a tinyest bulb you can find, lowest current and voltage.
When you blow the filament, then you are tuning the JT in the right direction.
Then move up to parallel and series connected tiny bulbs.

Eventually we will get there.

I saw a MOSFET in a circuit (above), nice one.

Start making several JTs (identical) put the outputs in parallel, this gives more grunt - current out
Then we will start making big progress.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on January 24, 2009, 08:10:23 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 24, 2009, 07:59:23 PM
@Artic_Knight

You do know that my pickup coil is not connected to the circuit in any way , and i can light a 120vac neon bulb with it. page 125.

Thanks for the info.

Mark

MK1 if that is true then it is something i would certainly like to experiment with, i did see that experiment but there was no schematic or drawing that i could see, can you post the connections as i did above so i can view it? thanks!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 24, 2009, 08:14:21 PM

@All . well al be darn theres a Upload and download now ;D or was that there before . if it was i am going blind !

Thanks Stephan !!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 24, 2009, 08:15:33 PM

@Artic_Knight

It is just a regular jt but the coil are limited to 7 turns (on some toroid 4 is enough)and the rest of the toroid is covered with 2 additional coil of 26 turns , They both give me 67 volts .

All of this has been covered in the tread. check some pages before the p 125.

Edit :Now ,you can see! welcome to the tread mate.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 24, 2009, 08:23:36 PM

now there got to be an easer way to get all those attachments .. Most boards have a little paperclip at the home page with the forum thread title to grab all the attachments otherwise if someone has the time (a couple weeks) they can grab all that stuff and zip it up :) With all the information on here we could make a DVD .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 24, 2009, 08:28:23 PM

@ MK1:

I was just rereading about induction coils in one of my electronics books today and it spoke specifically about ferrite toroids. (although not wound bifilar like we are doing) It said that as long as the magnetic field of one coil breaks into the magnetic field of another coil, or coils, there is no connection needed. (Induction) They said there were no losses in using them in this manner. The book had a picture (drawing) of the magnetic fields around the toroid and they extended quite far from the coil itself. I will have to go back and see what you did but I was thinking that we could put a secondary on a separate coil, or coils, and position them coil close enough to the primary coil for induction to take place by overlapping the fields. Do you think this would work? Or, is this basically what you already did? If this works as I described then we could have several secondary toroids with different numbers of windings on them. This would make it easier for testing purposes I believe.

I wound a new JT using one of my new thick 1" toroids and it puts out great! Instead of the 1k resistor I found a potentiometer and used that instead. I can turn the pot and the light gets brighter and brighter and then...it dims a bit. so, I just back off a little to obtain the brightest possible light I can get. One thing I noticed is that when I go too far and the light begins to dim, something in the circuit emits a very high freq. sound just like the Fuji circuit does. I don't know what this means. When I back off and the light brightens, the sound is barley audible. I have also made a circuit with 3 supercaps on my breadboard that run the leds for some time. I want to make a video showing that, all I have to do is touch my battery + to the breadboard power input for less than a second, and the leds light up for about a minute. when I use 2 leds, they just go out when they run out of power. When I use one led, it begins to flash on and off like Jeanna's was doing and will do this for sometime even though I only charged the caps for less than 1 second. I am trying to think of a way to demonstrate this in a video and then I will make one.

@ ArticKnight:

I did not see any posts from you that were harsh in any way. Don't worry about it and keep experimenting and posting. You device sounds fascinating. I can't wait to see it.

@ Jim:

Have you had a chance to play with your large toroid yet? I'll bet that baby can hold some wire. When I get some more money in, I would like to get one as well. Might be a little while though.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on January 24, 2009, 08:33:54 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 24, 2009, 08:15:33 PM
@Artic_Knight

It is just a regular jt but the coil are limited to 7 turns (on some toroid 4 is enough)and the rest of the toroid is covered with 2 additional coil of 26 turns , They both give me 67 volts .

All of this has been covered in the tread. check some pages before the p 125.

Edit :Now ,you can see! welcome to the tread mate.

Mark

so let me understand this you have the primary joule thief running with an additional 2 coils? and your tapping the additional 2 coils which happen to be higher turns to light these lights? thats how it was done?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 24, 2009, 08:39:50 PM

@pirate

There are many factors battery voltage and the resistor will change the freq , Each different core as a saturation freq , at that point the toroid drops in effectiveness , But turning the pot you go form bad to good and good to bad. Get the voltage as high as you can. The bigger the toroid the slower the saturation freq. At high freq you get more pulse per second giving more output.Smaller toroid in theory should give more output
Since it can handle faster switching without full saturation.

You can put as many pickup coil as you want , they do not need to be close to the jt coils.The core keep most of the magnetic in.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 24, 2009, 08:40:39 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on January 24, 2009, 08:33:54 PM
so let me understand this you have the primary joule thief running with an additional 2 coils? and your tapping the additional 2 coils which happen to be higher turns to light these lights? thats how it was done?

Yes Sir , that simple! No wonder most don't get it , its to simple.

Edit : btw , my last one gives me over 200 v .

Also any jt has the power to light over 100 leds easy.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 24, 2009, 09:01:29 PM

@xee2

QuoteJust as a test, try holding your finger on the windings and see if that decreases the brightness of the LEDs. Your finger will increase the capacitive coupling between the windings. If this is the reason for the differences you are seeing, then by making the secondary winding a separate coil around the toroid instead of winding it over the top of the other windings should reduce this effect.

I cannot see any difference from touching the lights. I looked for it today directly, and also I didn't see it last night, (and with all the fiddling to make the different wires touch the array, I would certainly have noticed it somewhere.)

QuoteEDIT: It would be interesting to see if the LEDs are brighter when the two coils used for the basic JT are separated as Mk1 does than when the two coils are wrapped bifilar together as is normally done. The added capacitance between the base and collector will be less when the two coils are not close together (but the inductive coupling will be the same). I always use separated coils but I never actually did this test.

Checking for brightness is very difficult. A meter that detected brightness could do better than one's eyes.

II checked the rectified voltage with the same materials arranged
1- the way MK1 did it and
2- the little toroid style.

28v and 29.v rectified volts off that 52 turn secondary for the MK1
and
29v and 25v in 2 directions rectified volts off the secondary when made the other way.
I called it hybrid because it used the same number of turns of the same types and sizes of materials, but made the little toroid way.

Sorry for the confusion and edits, My notes confused me.
The 52 turns of the secondary gave the same rectified voltage on both

I had some extra length when I was making the hybrid, and so I tried making more turns and got a bunch more volts each way when rectified.

I will look, but it would need to be very different for me to see a difference, I think.

@MK1

Quote@jeanna

Thanks !

you're welcome.

@jesus
PERFECT. VERY NICE PICTURE.

THANKS.

@Arctic Knight

Please look at page 177. Jesus just made a very nice drawing of the circuit.

thanks everybody,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 24, 2009, 09:38:17 PM

MK1

What are the specs on your last one?

Last I heard you were having trouble replicating the first one.

Also, please tell us what went wrong? It will make it easier for us to skip some of the mistakes. (I usually have to make them all myself, anyway, but it might help us.)

Thank you.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 24, 2009, 09:42:07 PM

@ mk1

im gonna have to dup your toroide i have a few bigger ones ... not too big tho i will find them then i will build your style unit ...

my 12vdc bulbs are like 60ma as i recall now have not dug them out yet....

and here is a pic cap to cap test unit to mesure in vs out

caps are 35vdc 4700uf both

ist

well i just ran the test board ... and ....

well tests indicate OVERUNITY.... i could be wrong tho .... but in a 1 shot kinda deal i put 2-3 vdc in the out cap ....

hummm ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 24, 2009, 09:46:05 PM

@ jeanna

Thanks for the test results. It would seem that you have shown that there is not much difference between winding the JT coils separately and winding them as bifilar. That seems like valuable information to know. I think it also shows that adding a little capacitance between coils does not seem to make much difference in performance. Therefore it seems that your experiments are indeed showing that the secondary wire diameter does make a difference in performance. Very interesting. Thanks for doing the tests.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 24, 2009, 10:03:19 PM

@all
Cheesy Smilie missing from line up.

Has anyone beside myself noticed the cheesy smilie is not there? I noticed this when at home using XP,
I am elseware right now using anothe PC, I installed Windows 7 BETA on it and I still got the same icon missing.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 24, 2009, 10:15:41 PM

@Jeanna

Yes , i did have trouble replication the 67 volts on each side, But this is because the toroid is bigger and its optimal working freq is lower,
I managed 45 volt on each side (24turns each 16 gauge) , by tuning the transistor freq the resistor is about 50 ohms , My last project is the same under powered toroid but with 30 gauge and made as many turns as i could , one side is complete the other is not , I have to count the turns, there is more then 100 turns , I don't know how many. I may have to start over , since i forgot to count them in the first place. More detail
asap.

Mark

Edit ; the reason i got lower voltage may be wire gauge resistance factor, but the bigger toroid has less output but more space for turns.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 24, 2009, 10:16:27 PM

@Jim,
Yes, I had. I was wanting to ask. I'm glad you did.
I just happen to have an extra.(I copied them a year ago onto my desktop. I lost some stuff, but not the cheesy smile)

@xee,
I would like some others to replicate these in an orderly fashion (I mean with the same transistor and toroid centers)

Jesus made a great diagram. It is sooo simple to build that making 2 of them should not be a problem. one like the one jesus just drew, and one like MK1 which he drew a while back.

cheesy smile coming up. Maybe stephan lost it somewhere and needs a copy.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 24, 2009, 10:30:43 PM

naw i burnt it out lol :D :D :D

ist! :)

i have bout 50 toroides all diffrent what is the best for freqs the rings .....i saw the colour chart ... most of my bigger ones are black.... i have many yello and some green ones

mk1 what is the exact size and colour you used i may have 1 identical ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 24, 2009, 10:31:04 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 24, 2009, 10:15:41 PM
@Jeanna

Yes , i did have trouble replication the 67 volts on each side, But this is because the toroid is bigger and its optimal working freq is lower,
I managed 45 volt on each side (24turns each 16 gauge) , by tuning the transistor freq the resistor is about 50 ohms , My last project is the same under powered toroid but with 30 gauge and made as many turns as i could , one side is complete the other is not , I have to count the turns, there is more then 100 turns , I don't know how many. I may have to start over , since i forgot to count them in the first place. More detail
asap.

Mark

Edit ; the reason i got lower voltage may be wire gauge resistance factor, but the bigger toroid has less output but more space for turns.

Don't you hate when you forget to count?

I think this is the next important step. If there is really a benefit from staying away from a big toroid, and the thin wire is better than thick, we may find some scaling problems. I personally like the idea of having smaller modules...

Please post the results of the partial along with the full one when you are finished undoing the partial. All the evidence gets added together, even if we must unwind some of it!

Thanks MK1, your work is really great.

jeanna

LOL ist! you burnt it out! ;D

catch it. it is back a few posts!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 24, 2009, 10:32:49 PM

@all

My project is to light my neon from a 1 cent and aluminium foil in electrolyte .Nuts you say.HA HA HA !

Edit : Ok it may need 3 or 4 cents.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 24, 2009, 10:41:07 PM

@ist

So far the green ones, are the best to my knowledge , the 1 k resistor is perfect for it, its a bit less that 1 inch, the 45 v is 1.25 inch (aqua green with a blue side and one all black same size same results there at there best at 50ohm resistor).

Btw , my last project is with the big one even if they are not the best , i can put more turns on it!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 24, 2009, 10:44:26 PM

@MK1,
Yes,
So, if 6 to 12 turns as secondaries can produce 9-12 volts or whatever, and many single wires can be wrapped with 6-12 turns each around the same toroid, When they are added together, or sent off to an external cap or something that can later be added together, then even a rather sluggish toroid can still be very useful.

It may truly be unnecessary to achieve 120v or 240v in one wire.

I think that may be what ist is up to. (I am afraid I still don't follow ist's experiments too well. But, I am following better. )

But, I want to be thinking about how to put secondary ends of wires into one additive form that doesn't wreck the frequency.

@Gadgetmail,
Is that the pic off the net? or are you the guy who devised that?

It is very cool that tiny jt.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 24, 2009, 10:46:26 PM

@ MK 1:

Just remember, if you are using the American cent it is zinc and not copper. I forget where zinc is on the galvanic charts compared to aluminum but unless you use an old one, very old, it has only a microscopic coating of copper which will be destroyed very quickly in an electrolyte.

***EDIT***

Found it:

Potential Differences of metals
Galvanic Series Metal Potential

V Cu/CuSO4 electrode

Magnesium (pure) -1.75
Magnesium (alloy) -1.60
Zinc -1.10
Alluminum (alloy) -1.05
Aluminum (pure) -0.8
Steel (clean) -0.50 to -0.80
Steel (rusted) -0.20 to -0.50
Cast Iron -0.50
Lead -0.50
Steel (concrete) -0.20
Copper -0.20
Brass -0.20
Bronze -0.20
Steel (mill scale) -0.20
Cast iron (high silicon) -0.20
Carbon +0.30
Graphite +0.30
Coke +0.30

Now you can see why I use carbon rods and magnesium blocks on my earth batteries. They offer almost the most potential difference. And, using the earth as an electrolyte does not appear to eat up the electrodes in any way....at least not so far. I hope this helps.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on January 24, 2009, 10:47:26 PM

for all you hydrogen nuts try this. take normal household aluminum foil make 2 electrodes from it and submerge them half way into salty water, now allow the electricity to flow! while it produces electricity it also produces hydrogen and unfortunately disolves the aluminum in the process.

fun stuff......

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 24, 2009, 10:48:06 PM

@Pirate

I am a crazy Canadian , like ist. lol

Edit : I know all about the galvanic scale don't worry , I light led with 8 cents and some foil , coke (the cola)with salt electrolyte.

What make earth good is the potassium in it, fertilizer , bananas , potato are also good. (koh)

Cavitation = implosion = hemf = mother power

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 24, 2009, 10:59:56 PM

@ jeanna

A bigger toroid produces a higher output voltage than a small toroid with the same number of turns (assuming both are made of the same ferrite material). The voltage is produced when the transistor turns off and the magnetic field of the collector coil collapses. The higher the inductance of the collector coil and the faster the transistor turns off, the higher the voltage produced will be. I have done a number of tests that show this is true. But, I am sure you will want to verify it for yourself.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 24, 2009, 11:01:16 PM

@xee2

Not really.My test showed the opposite.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 24, 2009, 11:01:32 PM

@Pirate . you Don't Believe In Ou . What is it that i have UU :)
I just posted a Short Vid of My 300 bright Leds and and 100 watt CFL runnuing from Fugi .the music on the end is one of 7 songs i wrote and copywrited . Im on the Ovation Guitar . recorded Live Halloween Night at MEE MOOS a Big Club having a big Halloween party !! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YAQ9MSrq5Q I gave Credit to you Pirate .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 24, 2009, 11:21:15 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 24, 2009, 11:01:16 PM
@xee2

Not really.My test showed the opposite.

@ Mk1

Hmmm. Strange that we get different results.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 24, 2009, 11:36:15 PM

Quote from: xee2 on January 24, 2009, 11:21:15 PM

@ Mk1

Hmmm. Strange that we get different results.

Xee,
I gather you did these experiments some years ago?
It would probably help a lot if you could provide some numbers and specs or pics (well not pics from years ago, but new pics of old trials?)
You appreciate consistency, and having one more person making consistent measurements and tests will be helpful. (your advice IS helpful, but this could be more.)

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 24, 2009, 11:49:50 PM

@ Gadgetmall:

Really good video!!! (5 stars) That is a lot of light there isn't it? I never could get my CFL to light like that, and that one was 100 Watts right? Excellent work. I liked your music as well.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 25, 2009, 12:03:02 AM

nice vid gadget ... rock in right along ...

i made 1 too lol of my board in vs out :)

ist!

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=ASY--pX9H0w

let it rock :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 25, 2009, 12:14:20 AM

@ist:

Good video!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pardon on January 25, 2009, 12:42:31 AM

hello all I just finished reading all the messages. Great work going on here. I just receive a new bread board so I will be trying to get some testing done soon. I have a circuit built now and it's up and running. so far after 12 hours running .02 volt drop in the battery voltage. I must add that my ferrite bead / toroid is not like any one used so far. I will have to unwind the coil to let you know how many turns i have used. my core is made from a small motor's core (magnet) it's a very flexable core. kinda like the refrigerator magnet stuff. I will let the circuit run all night to see if there is any more voltage drop in it.

Keep up the great work all

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 25, 2009, 12:56:25 AM

@jeanna . no i sad(yea right ) said it was something i found . Mine Is smaller . as soon as i can get me a SMT led ill show it . the transistor and diode and coil are smaller than an American ant .. use to work on surface mount repair for Us cellular so its microscope soldering with pins holding the parts ..
@ IST your NUTS !!! :D good video but i just don't know ..

@pirate . thank for the comments . but you don't believe that My machine is Ou huh ?what is the definition of Ou . I thought it was for instance . take a battery resting voltage . It drops and rest at a given voltage then hook up something that takes power to run . My fanbedini . Voltage goes down as expected BUT feedback and output voltage to the source and it goes up to resting voltage (unity) then goes even higher that resting voltage (over unity ) am i wrong ?
@ all thank you for being My Buds even though your all are just electrons aligning numbers 0 and 1 in my processor on a flat screen monitor :) you all are good Electrons some positive some neutrons and some protons . anyways you are fun to be with ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 25, 2009, 01:09:35 AM

@Pardon

Welcome!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on January 25, 2009, 02:51:49 AM

@ Jenna and MK1
i am having trouble replicating the 3 and 4 coil design, i am not getting any volts or amps! i checked the connections and the volt meter said its fine. any inputs?

@ Bill
how did you set up that earth battery led and cap? im having trouble replicating that too!

i must be an air head tonight as i cant seem to get any of the projects to work. got the joule thief to use 15mah while at full brightness though!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 25, 2009, 03:03:52 AM

@Artic_Knight

You need a little faith, Don't let your meter fool you .Just connect some led to it!

You can also connect it to a diode bridge , If you need you meter .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on January 25, 2009, 03:08:13 AM

yea i just noticed that too LOL

now heres a question for ya, can you get this to work? it didnt do squat for me. i can get the LED to light on the secondaries but when i try to do something like this it fails to work.

edit: basically try to tap the secondaries to charge a cap to keep the unit running, its a test of overunity.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 25, 2009, 03:16:10 AM

@Artic_Knight

Ok , first the coils 3 and 4 are not connected to anything in the circuit except your load or a diode bridge.

It just a regular jt with 2 additional coil.If you can light the jt led you are all set.

This is the funniest thing nobody gets it , yet It so simple,Don't complicate stuff.

Don't worry i had to repeat many times already, Everyone want's to connect them to something , you are not the first or the last to make that
mistake .

Btw , your plan look like Lidmotor jt.

Mark

Edit: If it works the led , make a quick test, take any wire you got make one turn and connect a led to it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 25, 2009, 03:22:38 AM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on January 25, 2009, 03:08:13 AM
yea i just noticed that too LOL

now heres a question for ya, can you get this to work? it didnt do squat for me. i can get the LED to light on the secondaries but when i try to do something like this it fails to work.

edit: basically try to tap the secondaries to charge a cap to keep the unit running, its a test of overunity.

A couple of things. First, I think the resistor should be going to the base of the transistor not off of the +supply. Second, I have a feeling that once you build up a voltage across the capacitor, the transistor will stop working.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 25, 2009, 03:27:54 AM

@Pardon,
Welcome to our group

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 25, 2009, 03:28:49 AM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on January 25, 2009, 02:51:49 AM
@ Jenna and MK1
i am having trouble replicating the 3 and 4 coil design, i am not getting any volts or amps! i checked the connections and the volt meter said its fine. any inputs?

@ Bill
how did you set up that earth battery led and cap? im having trouble replicating that too!

i must be an air head tonight as i cant seem to get any of the projects to work. got the joule thief to use 15mah while at full brightness though!

ArticKnight:

Here is another photo of my earth battery/supercap/led set up. I had posted this in the earth battery topic over a year ago and I reposted it here in this topic, but I can't remember where so, here it is again. This is a 5.5v .22F supercap that would charge from the EB while the LED was lit. I could then disconnect the EB and the led would burn bright for about an hour.

The second picture should be of when I got almost 500 mA's from the EB. (Stubblefield coil) I hope this helps.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 25, 2009, 03:33:37 AM

ArticKnight:

Here is a shot I pulled from my achieves of the supercap/led circuit after it had been disconnected from the earth battery and brought into my house and placed on the kitchen table. It lit for a good while.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 25, 2009, 04:17:22 AM

@ Gadgetmall:

I believe what you are saying, I just don't believe in OU is all. I am not saying you can't get more out than you put in at least the way we measure it. I just think that everything in nature seeks equilibrium and unity and that in any OU device the power is coming from somewhere, even if we don't exactly know where, which will balance the system into unity.

I have had many discussions with folks on here (on a topic I started called What is free energy, what is OU?) about this and hardly any two people agree with any other two so, I don't expect anyone to agree with my opinion, and that's all it is, an opinion. Now, free energy, yes, I have seen it, and can get it and I totally believe in that. Mother nature recycles and I think it is totally possible to recycle electrons, over and over, without consuming anything which to me would be unity, and free energy.

I would like to see more videos on your device...it is really cool.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: rensseak on January 25, 2009, 06:19:05 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 25, 2009, 03:16:10 AM
@Artic_Knight

Ok , first the coils 3 and 4 are not connected to anything in the circuit except your load or a diode bridge.

It just a regular jt with 2 additional coil.If you can light the jt led you are all set.

This is the funniest thing nobody gets it , yet It so simple,Don't complicate stuff.

Don't worry i had to repeat many times already, Everyone want's to connect them to something , you are not the first or the last to make that
mistake .

Btw , your plan look like Lidmotor jt.

Mark

Edit: If it works the led , make a quick test, take any wire you got make one turn and connect a led to it.

hi Mk1

dont get angry, i have replicate it. To me it gives about 320Volt DC but only 0.23 mA DC. There should no LED connected. It is funny to see how it glows a neon bulb. :o

thanks
Norbert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 25, 2009, 11:38:25 AM

kinda reminds me if this lil unit ... 8)

ist

i see that they have thease 1 watt led flashlights on sale this week 15 bucks ... im gonna go buy 1 ... it is a single led ..

im a JT IT!! :)

then i need a small solar cell then a cap and no batteries ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 25, 2009, 12:17:30 PM

@Bill

The energy sure as heck is coming from somewhere. Please look on any 1 atom as a wharehouse of ac voltage or a vibrating tuning fork and it's agoin at frequencies well above what we can hear or see. Take this one atom and put it on the end of a rope and transmit the vibrations down the rope maintaining tension on the rope. The rope will start to vibrate depending on how long the rope is and the tension. The little vibrating atom down one end soon is able to store it's action in the field of the rope. The best part is that little atom is gonna vibrate a long long time by all accounts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 25, 2009, 12:48:00 PM

@ Mk1

I think maybe I understand why we are getting different results for large and small toroids. My large toroids were the same diameter as the small toroids but much longer. I suspect your toroids are the same length (height) but larger in diameter. If you look at the equation for inductance of a toroid at http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/magnetic/indtor.html you will see that increasing the area of the coil increases the inductance. This is what I was doing. But, you will also see that if the area of the coil is kept the same and the diameter of the toroid is increased then the inductance is reduced. I suspect this is what you were doing. So I think it is a matter of how we define "larger" toroid. Would you agree with this?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 25, 2009, 02:27:19 PM

@xee2 that does sound quite intresting

guys just got back from the store what a deal ...

i got the 1w led light and there was 1 left on the shelf of this solar 3 pannel flashlight i was not going to buy it cuz it alomst would have broke me ... but i said i need the darn thing and what the hell is money any way ... lol

so i got it too ... got to the till the thing was half price ;D ;D ;D

i love it !!! 8)

a pic

what am i gonna do with this stuff ... btw the solar light also has a cell charger in it ;D

but b4 i get to this im gonna build a board that uses a watch style battery and charges a bunch of caps far beond what is posible of the tiny battery to further prove the point ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: DrSimon on January 25, 2009, 02:54:11 PM

@Fellows & Others
Now that I have spent *(hours)* going through this thread I can not find (any) posting of a valid "Energy Balance".

What an EB is - is a simple yet hopefully accurate statement of INPUT versus OUTPUT.

If you can not determine the input/output what is this long - long thread about? Gee - for $0.007 in 10K volume purchase a JT as it is called is available from most suppliers. Please excite me and provide the simple "EB" for this work you are all doing.

Simon.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: flathunter on January 25, 2009, 03:06:44 PM

Quote from: DrSimon on January 25, 2009, 02:54:11 PM
@Fellows & Others
Now that I have spent *(hours)* going through this thread I can not find (any) posting of a valid "Energy Balance".

What an EB is - is a simple yet hopefully accurate statement of INPUT versus OUTPUT.

If you can not determine the input/output what is this long - long thread about? Gee - for $0.007 in 10K volume purchase a JT as it is called is available from most suppliers. Please excite me and provide the simple "EB" for this work you are all doing.

Simon.

Perhaps they aint writing for your benefit.
sheeesh!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 25, 2009, 03:13:32 PM

Quote from: DrSimon on January 25, 2009, 02:54:11 PM
@Fellows & Others
Now that I have spent *(hours)* going through this thread I can not find (any) posting of a valid "Energy Balance".

What an EB is - is a simple yet hopefully accurate statement of INPUT versus OUTPUT.

If you can not determine the input/output what is this long - long thread about? Gee - for $0.007 in 10K volume purchase a JT as it is called is available from most suppliers. Please excite me and provide the simple "EB" for this work you are all doing.

Simon.

whats up doc?
yes, please be sure to provide us all with the details of your experiments. *'doc' we are not under your command, please do the work and provide the results so we may all share in your work. as said before - there are far to many talking heads already. maybe another thread where they are into talking heads would be a better place to offer your ideas?

Quote from: DrSimon on May 17, 2008, 04:17:03 PM
*Forest
Yes, please be sure to provide us all with the details of your experiments. *Forest we are not under your command, please do the work and provide the results so we may all share in your work. As Dr Stiffler has said before - there are far to many talking heads already. Maybe another thread where they are into Tesla would be a better place to offer your ideas?

wow, does that sound familiar? or hypocritical?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on January 25, 2009, 03:14:07 PM

Quote from: DrSimon on January 25, 2009, 02:54:11 PM
@Fellows & Others
Now that I have spent *(hours)* going through this thread I can not find (any) posting of a valid "Energy Balance".

What an EB is - is a simple yet hopefully accurate statement of INPUT versus OUTPUT.

If you can not determine the input/output what is this long - long thread about? Gee - for $0.007 in 10K volume purchase a JT as it is called is available from most suppliers. Please excite me and provide the simple "EB" for this work you are all doing.

Simon.

????
i suggest you to re-read the whole tread.

NO claims of overunity as been made.

we are experimenting to find all its aspect.
just use the joule thief where it best apply and leave that OU thing out of it for the moment.

thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on January 25, 2009, 03:31:57 PM

im not claiming there is ou in this device i was simply posing a invite to some of the masterminds of this curcuit to try to get it to power itself. now i realize you are using the extra coils for leds and other lights, but my modification was strictly to show that if there is more energy in this device then we put in that should be the way to tap it or maybe it needs some tweaks, i certainly could not get this unit to power itself which makes me think we are using 120 volts at litterally no amps to power devices, (gonna test on a uv florecent bulb later) this means if this is the case that you could shock the crap out of yourself and not stop your heart! but that is assuming theres no amps in it, as bill stated previously .1 amp can kill easily. i believe 15 mah which is what my curcuit is pulling should be safe especially after it gets pumped to 60-120 volts.

why oh why are we not using this stuff on lighting fixtures? i mean honestly if it only pulls a few mah then this is a excellent way to go green!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on January 25, 2009, 03:45:41 PM

@Artic_Knight

going green is one of the aspects of the jt.

but have we found how to tune the coils for best effecientcy ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on January 25, 2009, 03:46:27 PM

so these toroids have a optimum freq, whats the freq of this curcuit again? somewhere from 10-50 thousand cycles a second? so were looking at .1 to .5 mhz right? thats a grey torried according to the list i found...... can anyone confirm this data?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 25, 2009, 04:16:53 PM

@all

I have to say how funny it is that people think i am angry, Just to show the problem that we are facing is bigger that i tough.
Today people see everything negatively and anything could be said , because of that mind set most get the opposite of what is said.

My goal , is the light the positive side. See things for what they are ! And the modern man can't see anymore, all idea are dictated by other source .Everybody got there field of expertise , and because they got papers they know(reality check, first papers means you learned what they want you to learn, and only strait A's student should be proud of the brain wash.) they are getting the money so they should know.

We are part of nature, all the secrets of the universe can be found in nature, we have no problem understanding( but it is not a book , it goes step by step, you can't get a head unless you got the last step, only then you will be ready for the next.

You make your world, please make it a positive one.

My real goal, is education to me its the only way out of slavery, yes you are all slaves , it is about time to do something.

If i wanted to make money , i would have stay clear of this site , just stealing idea from it for my benefit , that's the old way and it clearly don't work.

Sorry, for those of you how will get the opposite of what i am saying.

Mark

My field of expertise are , music , arts , chess, people, the magnetic universe , and some electronic ! I create stuff not destroy them.

Edit: Ok only 20 mili that is strange i have burned my fuse in my meter with 20 mili?

Also : anyone plays chess?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 25, 2009, 04:39:39 PM

@MK1

I agree with you, mark.

Also, I want to say the EB only comes later when we have some idea of what we have. So far, our experiments have shown unexpected results. There are no equations yet.

I am also here to help dissolve the prison walls. Just seeing them, then later seeing through them will help them to dissolve.

Keep the sight far.

thank you,

@ Arctic Knight,

did you get the jt circuit to work as a little circuit with the light yet? Only after you prove that, should you take the light out and wind the secondary.

Also, remember I got results from ONE turn around the secondary.
Turn a secondary wire once around the toroid of the circuit once you have proved it is set up and working.

The ends of this secondary should light a led. turn the led if not.

Once that gets working, you can light many leds in a parallel way, but if you want to add any in series, you will need to make more turns to achieve that.

If you want to see how many volts are across this secondary you must use a bridge rectifier instead of the leds.

If you do not have a real ammeter, put a 1 ohm resistor in series with the pos end of the battery - right there at the battery, and measure volts, then use ohms law to get how much amp draw there is from this circuit.

AK, I am addressing this to you, but we have found that every once in a while it helps a lot of people to have a little recap.(so I am taking this opportunity to do that.)

I am now wanting to scale this up a little.

@xee,
Thank you for making a word statement out of that formula from hyperphysics.

Thanks everybody,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 25, 2009, 04:46:42 PM

@All

The 26 , Monday something big will happen, i don't know what yet.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on January 25, 2009, 04:52:45 PM

yea 20 mili seems to be the average for these units, ive got mine tweeked to use 15 mili and seems to be full brightness by eye judgement.

my thoughts is about the mhz matching a toroid of the appropriate mhz to this curcuit. how will that play an effect? if i remember right (correct me if im wrong) this curcuit is 10,000 to 50,000 cycles a second which is .1 - .5 mhz i would assume someone has used a torried to match this freq range already?

im going to enjoy trying to see if it can light a florecent, my current toroid is 4 coils each 10 turn. the next one will be 3 coils 2 10 turn and 1 30? maybe... havent decided.

just so everyone knows my measure ments
off of my 4 coil 10 turn each im using one of the secondaries, its giving .4vac and 30mvdc at 8mah the draw on my battery is 1.3v at 15mah

this is some unusual measurements, im going to chalk it up to a digital multimeter not properly reading?
weird

on a side note, adding a cap in parallel with the diod does not work it infact turns the diod off... hmm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 25, 2009, 05:03:52 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 24, 2009, 08:28:23 PM
@ MK1:

I was just rereading about induction coils in one of my electronics books today and it spoke specifically about ferrite toroids. (although not wound bifilar like we are doing) It said that as long as the magnetic field of one coil breaks into the magnetic field of another coil, or coils, there is no connection needed. (Induction) They said there were no losses in using them in this manner. The book had a picture (drawing) of the magnetic fields around the toroid and they extended quite far from the coil itself. I will have to go back and see what you did but I was thinking that we could put a secondary on a separate coil, or coils, and position them coil close enough to the primary coil for induction to take place by overlapping the fields. Do you think this would work? Or, is this basically what you already did? If this works as I described then we could have several secondary toroids with different numbers of windings on them. This would make it easier for testing purposes I believe.

I wound a new JT using one of my new thick 1" toroids and it puts out great! Instead of the 1k resistor I found a potentiometer and used that instead. I can turn the pot and the light gets brighter and brighter and then...it dims a bit. so, I just back off a little to obtain the brightest possible light I can get. One thing I noticed is that when I go too far and the light begins to dim, something in the circuit emits a very high freq. sound just like the Fuji circuit does. I don't know what this means. When I back off and the light brightens, the sound is barley audible. I have also made a circuit with 3 supercaps on my breadboard that run the leds for some time. I want to make a video showing that, all I have to do is touch my battery + to the breadboard power input for less than a second, and the leds light up for about a minute. when I use 2 leds, they just go out when they run out of power. When I use one led, it begins to flash on and off like Jeanna's was doing and will do this for sometime even though I only charged the caps for less than 1 second. I am trying to think of a way to demonstrate this in a video and then I will make one.

@ ArticKnight:

I did not see any posts from you that were harsh in any way. Don't worry about it and keep experimenting and posting. You device sounds fascinating. I can't wait to see it.

@ Jim:

Have you had a chance to play with your large toroid yet? I'll bet that baby can hold some wire. When I get some more money in, I would like to get one as well. Might be a little while though.

Bill

Yeah, my 1.125" outer diameter toroid is my more powerful one. It is busy being wound with a pickup coil right now. That is a pain to wind! I can use a Darlington on my big one and I just got a TIP3055 to see if I can get some more juice out of this thing!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 25, 2009, 05:11:35 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on January 25, 2009, 04:52:45 PM
yea 20 mili seems to be the average for these units, ive got mine tweeked to use 15 mili and seems to be full brightness by eye judgement.

my thoughts is about the mhz matching...

this is some unusual measurements, im going to chalk it up to a digital multimeter not properly reading?
weird

I don't know if we actually know what the frequency is. I asked a while ago, but I don't remember an answer.

The value of the resistor on the base of the transistor supposedly determines the frequency. I believe that is right, but even on the video that showed it on the scope, the author never actually said what the frequency was.

You simply cannot take measurements off the secondary with your dmm.

MK1 devised a way to see the voltage, by using what is essentially a wheatstone bridge.

I was confused about it for a long time. You take the measurements of the secondary across the bridge rectifier while it is running from the battery, but without anything else running off those wires. It is just a way he devised to tell what the volts are across the secondary wires. AND, btw, the voltage is different in each direction. It appears this is really an ac item, and the voltage of the 2 directions added together is the total voltage.

The amps draw seems to be too negligable to test. you have 15 milliamps. cool. I found it remained the same, no matter how many turns or leds.

We can not at this point compare our numbers with each other. These numbers are going to change from one of us to another because we are using different components. And this makes a difference.

So, make the tests keeping in mind that you are comparing numbers to your own numbers.

When we get a lot of these internal comparisons, we will be able to see the patterns.

Thank you, (I have always appreciated your enthusiasm)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 25, 2009, 05:12:13 PM

@MK1

The Jule thief is at the very least displaying the possiblities of efficient storage and transfer of energy. The jule thief gets the voltage up and the frequency up and from there you can go out to play. The designers of the circuit wanted the most bang for the buck on input energy so there you go. How high a frequency and voltage can ya go. Tesla went up to millions of volts and 100,000 of cycles.
used in a resonant cavity with cops in the thousands.
This Jule thief is opening up peoples minds. I see people getting solar panels to power these little jewels. Hooking into Earth batteries. Minny windmills, all sorts of low voltage dc scources out there. I see huge thermocouples of simple design responding to different heat waves generating voltage that the jewel thief can amplify for us.
This of course begs the question why hasn't the power company thought of this.
Believe me they have. They have been converting to highfrequency highvoltage pulsed dc for a long time on their transmission trunks because that's on their side of the meter. Imagine a voltage multiplier a thousand miles long. How much input voltage do you need to getta little action out the wall.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on January 25, 2009, 05:13:44 PM

hey has anyone seen the Frequency refridgerator? this guy uses something like a piezzo electric and sends it a certain frequency that litterally freezes the metal!

i dont have a link but i seen it on tv, rather nice.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 25, 2009, 05:18:02 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on January 25, 2009, 12:56:25 AM
@jeanna . no i sad(yea right ) said it was something i found . Mine Is smaller . as soon as i can get me a SMT led ill show it . the transistor and diode and coil are smaller than an American ant .. use to work on surface mount repair for Us cellular so its microscope soldering with pins holding the parts ..
@ IST your NUTS !!! :D good video but i just don't know ..

@pirate . thank for the comments . but you don't believe that My machine is Ou huh ?what is the definition of Ou . I thought it was for instance . take a battery resting voltage . It drops and rest at a given voltage then hook up something that takes power to run . My fanbedini . Voltage goes down as expected BUT feedback and output voltage to the source and it goes up to resting voltage (unity) then goes even higher that resting voltage (over unity ) am i wrong ?
@ all thank you for being My Buds even though your all are just electrons aligning numbers 0 and 1 in my processor on a flat screen monitor :) you all are good Electrons some positive some neutrons and some protons . anyways you are fun to be with ..

I guess I'm the positron ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 25, 2009, 05:27:47 PM

@ Artic_Knight

Quote from: Artic_Knight on January 25, 2009, 04:52:45 PM
on a side note, adding a cap in parallel with the diod does not work it infact turns the diod off... hmm

You have to wait for the capacitor to charge up before the LED will go on. You may be using a large cap which takes longer to charge up. If you use a few pF it should charge up quick. The frequency is usually between 10 KHz and 50 KHz. I posted the frequencies for the camera circuits I built earlier. I am still waiting for someone to light a fluorescent tube from AA battery using self made transformer. I know it is possible since the camera circuits do it. Maybe you will be the first to do this.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 25, 2009, 05:36:29 PM

@xee2

Good idea! Give me a week , but anyone game on !

Edit: Ok it takes 20 mili at 1.5 v to make the jt work, I got 67 volt out even if its only 20 milli , 67v at 20 milli drop it back down to 1.5 how many amps you get?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on January 25, 2009, 05:37:25 PM

well heres the facts even if ya dont want em MUAHAHAHA

the transistor unless you got a super special one is capable of 50,000 cycles per second, magnetism? well that has a limit based on the materials this limit has a name.. what was it.. hysterisis. then of course you have to account for eddy currents (or do you? maybe they help?) then ofcourse there is something to frequencies but i dont think any of us may be qualified to go down that road! resistances and another question is effeciencies... honestly whats the point, lets just take 15 milli and use it to power a friggen florecent to max power! then we can run our houses from (modded) florecent or halogen lights and even use the JT to tweek our heating systems, with solar hot water systems you can make yourself that work really well all you need is a good storage medium solar hot water makes for a warm house and the ground tap water makes for a cold one, combine this with a JT hacked 6v dc motor and we should have a cheep to operate water pump now take all of this stick it in a salad shaker bowl mix in a 20 watt solar panel and a 12 volt high capacity car battery or even cap bank and what do we have? all the free lights and heating/ac we need for our life powered by a tiny solar panel! now if only we could extend a laptop runtime with this JT without Fudging the data and curcuits that would be fantastic.

well i got some time to spare so lets tweak.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 25, 2009, 05:49:38 PM

If we want a better world , we all need to stand together! And stop waiting for salvation!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on January 25, 2009, 05:55:39 PM

well better world is my motto, im here to develope a alternative power supply if i cannot do that then i want to increase effeciencies of current electrical systems to the point where we can live essentially energy free. lets face it a 200watt solar panel on the roof of a car should be enough to power it, the question is........ how?

heres an experiment for anyone who has a neodyium magnet that will fit inside a torried, stick it in a tube (modified straw if needed) and put it in the middle of the torried and see if it doesnt increase the light! its on youtube, fantastic. something we should be exploring more. i dont have the magnet yet but i think i can get one soon.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 25, 2009, 05:59:27 PM

@Artic_Knight

My small neo are from cd or dvd reading heads ! See page 125.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 25, 2009, 06:06:33 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 25, 2009, 11:38:25 AM
kinda reminds me if this lil unit ... 8)

ist

IST,

That is really intriguing. You have made 3 jt's connected somehow, then through the center of the 3 toroids you have put a thick copper wire. But, not in any old direction. You have put this into a ring formation. so now there is another order of magnitude torus here.

What does it do? eg. how much power?

And, are the 3 jt's the standard circuit?

And

Are they connected in series? (I assume, but never know for sure...)

3 questions here.

Please???

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 25, 2009, 06:15:44 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 25, 2009, 04:16:53 PM
@all

I have to say how funny it is that people think i am angry, Just to show the problem that we are facing is bigger that i tough.
Today people see everything negatively and anything could be said , because of that mind set most get the opposite of what is said.

My goal , is the light the positive side. See things for what they are ! And the modern man can't see anymore, all idea are dictated by other source .Everybody got there field of expertise , and because they got papers they know(reality check, first papers means you learned what they want you to learn, and only strait A's student should be proud of the brain wash.) they are getting the money so they should know.

We are part of nature, all the secrets of the universe can be found in nature, we have no problem understanding( but it is not a book , it goes step by step, you can't get a head unless you got the last step, only then you will be ready for the next.

You make your world, please make it a positive one.

My real goal, is education to me its the only way out of slavery, yes you are all slaves , it is about time to do something.

If i wanted to make money , i would have stay clear of this site , just stealing idea from it for my benefit , that's the old way and it clearly don't work.

Sorry, for those of you how will get the opposite of what i am saying.

Mark

My field of expertise are , music , arts , chess, people, the magnetic universe , and some electronic ! I create stuff not destroy them.

Edit: Ok only 20 mili that is strange i have burned my fuse in my meter with 20 mili?

Also : anyone plays chess?

Play chess? Yep.
Know how to play chess? Yep.
Beat someone who plays it a lot? Nope! ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: mdmiller on January 25, 2009, 06:19:02 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 25, 2009, 04:46:42 PM
@All

The 26 , Monday something big will happen, i don't know what yet.

Mark can you enlighten us a bit as to what this might be about ? Should I stay in bed ? lock the doors? watch CNN ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 25, 2009, 06:23:32 PM

Quote from: mdmiller on January 25, 2009, 06:19:02 PM
Mark can you enlighten us a bit as to what this might be about ? Should I stay in bed ? lock the doors? watch CNN ?

I second this question!
I've got over two weeks of sick time that I would LOVE an excuse to use some of! ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 25, 2009, 06:24:35 PM

to have a well tuned coil...

we need a digial scale

yep i got 1

i think to have a properly tuned unit many things are at play .......but i bet mass will do it

equal mass or close but 1 needs be high self inductance and the other low self inductance

so lets look at it this way .. and i bet this is incorrect right now but it is my current view

3 9 = low and high 6 med = output or secondaries

what will happin is this the low self inductance wind gets gets the power it then connects to the high self inductance wire wich closes the curcuit for it to work like this you need a means to stop the flow in the low self inductance winding many times and i mean DONOT LET IT BACK FEED it must be A 1 WAY DEAL then when you cut the flow it can only travel out the secondaries.... the kick..... a tiny amount is returned to the source from the high self idnuctance winding hence its consumption is tiny ... and its out is huge ..

so when the feild colapses it wants to go out the low self inductance wind .... but WE DO NOT ALLOW IT TO ... and we know it wont go through the choke coil ... so it is locked in the toroide ...... in magnetic FORM ....

next it will look for the next path of least resistance ...

oh it just found it in your secondaries... as long as the resistance is less than the choke and more than the low self inductance .. and we block the return path to source

HEY ITS GOTTO GO SOME WHERE .... :)

ist!

this is my hemf tranny ... ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 25, 2009, 06:28:16 PM

@mdmiller

I will be watching cnn for sure but, i wish i could tell more,Harper will need a miracle to stay in place(a diversion at lest), the way things are going ufo may even be a possibility , on a concrete base there will be an eclipse. A world government is there end game , but could one bring every one together fear! I may take a weeks before we understand .The web bots are sounding the alarm.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 25, 2009, 06:37:25 PM

http://amasci.com/tesla/tmistk.html (http://amasci.com/tesla/tmistk.html)

Check out this page! I don't know if it applies to the pickup coils we are experimenting with, but it might give some of you more experienced people an idea.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 25, 2009, 06:59:08 PM

@Inno

Looks like a sm version.

I just posted this over in Thane Perpectua thread which has digressed into uselessness as there profit makes it's inroads.

It is a way to connect two torroids.

A shorted highimpedance coil current will happen at a different time than the exciting magnetic saturation change. This phenomenon can be exploited on a solid state level also. Input spike on input winding saturates the core while inducing a voltage in a shorted highself induction coil. The current in this coil is delayed not effecting the impedance of the core to the exciter signal. Then current flows in the shorted coil and is inductively coupled to the load windings. You could use two torroidal high frequency transformers for this. Pulse the primary on one. Feed the high voltage secondary to the primary of the second torroid. Feed the load from the secondary of number 2 torroid. Make sure to use a resonant lc setup to feed the pulses into the primary or exciter torroid. An active element like an avalanche diode in series with the exciter torroid output winding and the output torroid primary will help the tendency of the circuit to drift as the core magnetic parameters change. Active tuning of the oscillator always helps but the circuit should run with gain. The output of the secondary will be highvoltage high frequency.
Inno's signature teaches us how to change highfrequency highvoltage pulses into a resonant low frequency high current circuit. When the inductor in this resonant circuit is a loaded motor you can do all sorts of things with the mechanical output.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 25, 2009, 07:05:15 PM

I just uploaded this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD77lY9xG6k

This is showing an interesting effect with my new JT circuit and some supercaps. With the caps empty, and a less than 1 second touch with the + lead of the AA battery, the superbright led lights up for a bit. When the led goes out, I found that if I just lightly touch the top of the transistor, the led lights up again, and will stay lit for as long as I touch the top of the transistor. When I remove my finger...it goes out....touch again...it lights up....all from a 1 second pulse to the superscaps. See what you think, and if you like it, please give me a decent rating. Someone has been going through my vids and giving them very poor ratings lately. Probably some idiot like Desertphile or some other nut from youtubeville.

I am still reading the last 3 pages of posts I missed while working today.

Thank you all for handling the negative post from the newbie in such a direct and yet polite manner. I even say on my videos that this is NOT an OU device and I say it on the video explanations as well. What do I get on the comments section of youtube? "Hey man, this is not OU." Duh. If only they would read a bit and listen a bit before commenting.

As I said, this circuit, to me anyway (and many others here) is a key to a free energy device powered by the sun, earth battery and/or wind. I intend on doing all 3. The more efficient we can make it and the higher the output, the more choices of things we can use it for we will have. I really respect the heck out of you fine people, I really do. Thank you all again.

Bill

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 25, 2009, 07:11:55 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 25, 2009, 06:28:16 PM
@mdmiller

I will be watching cnn for sure but, .The web bots are sounding the alarm.

For whatever this is worth,

It is already tomorrow in Australia where it has already happened.

Wind on little toroids, wind on,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 25, 2009, 07:13:50 PM

thanks bro 8)

i got 1 of thease inverted trannys tuned round here some where

ill digg up the pic ;D

ist!

all is mass to mass tuned = mass primaries and secondaries bet it works both ways ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on January 25, 2009, 07:28:49 PM

http://www.edn.com/blog/1470000147/post/580036458.html?nid=3002

check that out, man we should be makin some money! too bad..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 25, 2009, 07:34:13 PM

Quote from: timmy1729 on January 25, 2009, 06:37:25 PM
http://amasci.com/tesla/tmistk.html (http://amasci.com/tesla/tmistk.html)

Check out this page! I don't know if it applies to the pickup coils we are experimenting with, but it might give some of you more experienced people an idea.

Nice find. The electron cloud inside and mostly on the skin of the conductor acting like air molecules. Makes the coil like a superconductor. Lot easier for energy to be in waveform instead of moving the charge carriers.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 25, 2009, 07:35:45 PM

@ ArticKnight:

Yes, I posted about that way back somewhere. In was advertised about 4 months ago in a trade magazine I get in the PI business. Quite pricey though. I will be making my own for maybe $20 in parts. This is the second device I have seen on the open market using supercaps instead of batteries. (The other is a cordless drill that came out about 1.5 years ago.) I keep telling everyone that will listen that supercaps are the energy storage device of the future, and we can play with them now. Same thing with leds, these are the lights of the future and getting bigger, more efficient and brighter every month. Good catch on the review, I would have never seen it if you did not post it.

@ All:

One day in the not too far future, all electric cars will operate using super capacitors for energy storage instead of batteries. Trust me on this, it is happening as we speak.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 25, 2009, 07:51:14 PM

these guys have been around for a couple years using the ultracap tech
http://www.solarpathusa.com/

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 25, 2009, 07:53:58 PM

Imagine Bill using a supercapacitor that is in electrical resonance with the drive motor inductance. You get up in the morning and make sure the supercap is at full charge in case of any leakage overnight. Ah what the hell give it a kick from the house resonant circuit. Hop in and drive all day. Get home and check the supercap. Damn it's low that old alternator belt driving off the main motor is slipping again. I know I should have bought a Tesla they got themselves that dragless solid state alternator deal for auxillary electrical loads and supercap top off.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 25, 2009, 07:56:23 PM

@ Wilby:

Excellent post! I love stuff like this. It says they don't use ANY batteries in their product line, just supercaps. They are ahead of their time. I hope everyone looks at this site. Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 25, 2009, 08:03:12 PM

@ Sparks:

Yes, and when you do need to juice it up, it takes minutes not hours to do so. The very best part is that these caps can take millions of charge/drain/recharge cycles with no degradation in performance. The batteries used today will last maybe 3-4 years and need to be replaced like we do our cell phone batteries at a cost of like $5,000.00!!! I think most folks buying these hybrids are not told about that part.....they will find out in a few years. What little money they saved in gas will be dwarfed by the batteries expense.

Interesting you mention the Tesla. They are already using some supercaps and moving toward the complete changeover in a year or two I read. If they made and sold 1 million Teslas a year, the cost would be down to where most could afford it.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on January 25, 2009, 08:10:52 PM

I have been reading this thread I am up to page 40

My first attempt at using a Fuji circuit
No diode.

I tried running a small CFL ......it wouldn't work I smelled overheating electonics each time I tried ......not sure what was getting hot .

The picture is a string of 100 LED christmas tree lights.

Does the kind of battery make much difference ?

I have tried both the battery that came with the camera and rechargeable NiMH battery ......... didn't see any difference.
The capacity of the NiMH is supposed to be quite a bit more than the standard battery..

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 25, 2009, 08:18:41 PM

Gary:

If you have no diode then where did you attach your leads? One lead is supposed to go the the side of the diode with the stripe on it (annode???) Then, yo u simply cut the other end and move it away from the circuit board to avoid any arcing. I like the heavy duty batteries that come with the cameras...my first one last a good long time and I am still using it for other experiments. The other lead I attached to a pin on the transformer. (My close-up photo is on here way back but I can post it again if you need it and can't find it easily.) I also tied that lead into another point on the board along the same conductor path for added strength. Did you remove the other resistors and stuff? I only have 1 resistor left on the board I believe. (I'll have to check) the transformer and the capacitor and half the diode. Well, I left the trigger coil too but that is no longer in the circuit.

Let me know if you want the photo or any help or info. Good luck. They are fun once you get them going.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 25, 2009, 08:40:55 PM

@ resonanceman

Congratulations. The battery voltage makes a difference in performance, but other than that the only difference in batteries will be how long they last. To light the CFL you need to remove the electronics and go straight into the tube. What camera board did you use?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 25, 2009, 08:41:34 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 25, 2009, 07:35:45 PM
@ ArticKnight:

Yes, I posted about that way back somewhere. In was advertised about 4 months ago in a trade magazine I get in the PI business. Quite pricey though. I will be making my own for maybe $20 in parts. This is the second device I have seen on the open market using supercaps instead of batteries. (The other is a cordless drill that came out about 1.5 years ago.) I keep telling everyone that will listen that supercaps are the energy storage device of the future, and we can play with them now. Same thing with leds, these are the lights of the future and getting bigger, more efficient and brighter every month. Good catch on the review, I would have never seen it if you did not post it.

@ All:

One day in the not too far future, all electric cars will operate using super capacitors for energy storage instead of batteries. Trust me on this, it is happening as we speak.

Bill

well bill i would like to hear more on this if you care to speek bout it ......

william

i will be wireing up my 1 watt led from a watch battery tonight .... almost done my first watch battery unit it will charge 6 6.3vdc 1500uf caps

my next will go dirrectly to the led with out a diode ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on January 25, 2009, 09:11:49 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 25, 2009, 08:18:41 PM
Gary:

If you have no diode then where did you attach your leads? One lead is supposed to go the the side of the diode with the stripe on it (annode???) Then, yo u simply cut the other end and move it away from the circuit board to avoid any arcing. I like the heavy duty batteries that come with the cameras...my first one last a good long time and I am still using it for other experiments. The other lead I attached to a pin on the transformer. (My close-up photo is on here way back but I can post it again if you need it and can't find it easily.) I also tied that lead into another point on the board along the same conductor path for added strength. Did you remove the other resistors and stuff? I only have 1 resistor left on the board I believe. (I'll have to check) the transformer and the capacitor and half the diode. Well, I left the trigger coil too but that is no longer in the circuit.

Let me know if you want the photo or any help or info. Good luck. They are fun once you get them going.

Bill

Bill

I attached the leads in the same places shown on the Pino website http://www.josepino.com/circuits/?fluorescent_light
I don't have a nice little soldering iron so I had trouble soldering to like in the picture ........so I pulled out the resistor and the diode and ran the wire through the hole ......after that it was easy

I don't remember seeing anything about arcing problems ......could I be loosing power from arcing ?
If so .....a healthy dose of silicone rubber around the connection should fix the problem .

my cameera board looks just like the one on the pino site ........right down to the blue line on the green side

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on January 25, 2009, 09:16:00 PM

Quote from: xee2 on January 25, 2009, 08:40:55 PM

To light the CFL you need to remove the electronics and go straight into the tube.

Xee

That is what I thought they were doing ........I tried that first .......nothing ..

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 25, 2009, 09:35:47 PM

Hi Gary,
I am glad to see you here.

There is no problem with arcing. There could be if you let the diode stay in place after you cut the pos end.

My first time the diode crumbled in the snippers, so, I just cut it out completely.
I think it worked that way, I can't remember, unless I soldered a splotch across to short out where the other side of the diode would have been. That is what I think I did. That way the circuit keeps going around. and can produce the good effects.

Did you short out the little copper traces where the camera switch was? How did you arrange your switch?

Welcome!

jeanna

EDIT:
I just found in my notes. after cutting off the diode, I soldered a red wire to the place where the neg side of the diode had been, and that was my pos side of my circuit.

I didn't use it on a cfl, I used it on a 15 watt fluoro tube. So, the cfl you are using is likely a 27 watt, because that is what gives the =valent to 100watt incandescent bulb. I was able to add a 7 watt fluoro tube later, once that first one was on, and it stayed on too. But not a easily. I bet you are just on the edge of getting the light to light.

j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 25, 2009, 11:33:25 PM

Hi everybody,
Did this site just bog way down? or did I go to a bad website an hour ago? saloowww.
edit: I rebooted. Itsok now. bad website.

OK,

I can make double the lights by putting 2 jt's in what I believe would be called parallel. But when I put them in what seems a series way the lights go way down or off, depending on what I am connecting together.

Is anybody else having a problem putting 2 jts in series?

I may need help in case I am trying to connect them wrong.

BTW,, the lights are all running off the secondaries in each joule thief. I have 2 lights in 1 and 1 light in the other - it is soldered.

Also, the amperage draw also seems to be doubled with the 2.

Has anybody else tried to do this yet?

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 26, 2009, 12:52:38 AM

@ Gary:

Here is the pic of my circuit connections in case it will help. Others have hooked it up in a different way, which may be all the same, I don't really know. I just know that this is the way I hooked it up and it works. Mine is different from Josepino's design. He even says on his page that the circuit will light a 4 watt tube, but no more. That is why I call mine the "Modified Joule thief Circuit."

Jeanna is correct about the switch placement. Possibly, you might have a short someplace while doing that. It is not easy to solder to these PC's at all. One glob of solder can bridge 2 or 3 circuit tracks very easily.

@ Jeanna:

I have not got to the point of hooking up several in series or parallel so, I can not be of much help here. I am sure others can.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 26, 2009, 02:39:24 AM

@ jeanna

I assume that the two JT each have their own transistor. If that is the case, then the AC voltages from the secondaries can not be added in series or parallel effectively because they are not if phase since each transistor is oscillating at its own frequency. The best way to add them is to power both JT from the same transistor. Or, to rectify the voltages into capacitors and then put the capacitors in series or parallel. The DC voltages can be added.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 26, 2009, 03:04:41 AM

@ Xee2:

Bingo! This is exactly what I am going to attempt with 2 Fuji AA bat circuits. Good call.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 26, 2009, 04:04:28 AM

@Timmy
Thanks for asking about my big torid, about (5 pages back) I not back at home yet, but I will begin on it again shortly.
I have been reading up on the posts the again and had a couple of long PMs to answer :D lol.

Yep, it seems that the bigger torids (from what I have read) have a lower output with thin wires.
Mabe I better make this torid a jumbo JT, scale up all components and see what happens.

My lawnmower is kaput, lost its spark, gotta fx this first though,grass getting toooo long.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 26, 2009, 05:11:50 AM

@ Gary
Great to see you again.

Watch out for those camera capacitors, they sure can give a belt lol

Welcome

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 26, 2009, 06:17:07 AM

Quote from: spinner on November 23, 2008, 03:40:55 AM
Hmm, this circuit (a very basic transistor oscillator with an inductive coupling) is called "The Joule Thief"? Lol, I can assure you it's more like a "Joule waster"...

Yes, it works with only a few (easy to get or make) components, but that's about all it can do...
It actually works as a (quite inefficient) DC to AC/frequency converter, wasting at least half of the Energy available.

Maybe it's the rather low input voltage where LED is still working that fascinates you?

There are serial (three/four pin "transistor like") components on the market, which allows you >85% efficiency (DC/DC chips, usually needing only a few external low-tech components to work). They all beat this circuit (in efficiency) at least by the factor of two... And they're still not Unity.

Joule Thief? Yeah, sure...

What are some of those part numbers if you don't mind sir . Id like to have a look.

Also here is a 100 watt daylight output running from my Fugi. all i did was short the diode and remove the cap and short the switch contacts . The output comes off where the cap hooked up . i lit 300 leds bright with it also

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on January 26, 2009, 11:36:38 AM

Quote from: jeanna on January 25, 2009, 09:35:47 PM

Did you short out the little copper traces where the camera switch was? How did you arrange your switch?

Jeanna

I didn't have a switch handy .......so I just clipped an alligator clip across the contacts

Quote

I didn't use it on a cfl, I used it on a 15 watt fluoro tube. So, the cfl you are using is likely a 27 watt, because that is what gives the =valent to 100watt incandescent bulb. I was able to add a 7 watt fluoro tube later, once that first one was on, and it stayed on too. But not a easily. I bet you are just on the edge of getting the light to light.

I must have something not quite right .
I also tried a smaller CFL it was designed to replace a 40 watt light ....... if I remember right it was suposed to use 12 watts .....it should have lit up

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on January 26, 2009, 11:49:04 AM

Quote from: xee2 on January 26, 2009, 02:39:24 AM
@ jeanna

I assume that the two JT each have their own transistor. If that is the case, then the AC voltages from the secondaries can not be added in series or parallel effectively because they are not if phase since each transistor is oscillating at its own frequency. The best way to add them is to power both JT from the same transistor. Or, to rectify the voltages into capacitors and then put the capacitors in series or parallel. The DC voltages can be added.

I was thinking that if you wrapped both JTs on the same toroid they should stay pretty much in sink.

Jim

I am careful .......haven't been bittern yet :)

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 26, 2009, 11:49:47 AM

here is a pic of the new boards i finished ..

watch battery works ... for both boards but led is not full brightness ...

winding a new jt to play with .. 8)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 26, 2009, 12:38:20 PM

well well ;D

so my new jt works like a charm im gonna add more 1 turn secondaries... there is 11 now

i have 4 leds hooked up ... the 1 turns secondaires must be polorized ??? as my led only lites one way .... humm

any ways all 4 so far light i will put 1 led on the rest each... then im gonna add 11 more 1 turns secondaries and see what the results are ..

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on January 26, 2009, 01:34:23 PM

IST

didn't you say at one time that you can achieve OU by driving a ciol with a PWM ?

If we made a T connection to the output of a JT and put a diode on each end of the T couldn't we feed a half cycle to 2 different coils?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 26, 2009, 02:51:42 PM

@ resonanceman

Quote from: resonanceman on January 26, 2009, 11:49:04 AM

I was thinking that if you wrapped both JTs on the same toroid they should stay pretty much in sink.

I'm not sure if that will work or not. But it migh work. The best way to find out is to try it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 26, 2009, 02:55:28 PM

;D

hummm

did i say that lol i probally did lol .....

i think you may be able to tap it that way ...

i finished my 2nd round of secondaries .... i now have 22 independent 1 turn secondaries all lighting leds ... and guess what ... lol

i still have my orginal out put i have not touched yet ..... i put a cap there the lights will not lite...

ist!

pics soon .... might do another round ... with out a load on it ... will not read yet it powers a led .... well i only did 1 of the 3rd round .. and i tryed a few things when i short the coil all the leds turn off ... as well as when i connect the output all the leds turn off except the 1 on the out put disconnect it they come back on ...

weird

i checked out my little solar pannels and led flashlight .... it apears to be compleate junk the most i get off all 3 pannels is like .5 volts

so i tryed a 12v pannel i have and it reads 9v but it cant hardly run a jt.... with 1 led it barley blinks... humm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 26, 2009, 03:11:24 PM

@ Gary:

Why not just use induction and get the full cycle in both other coils at no extra cost? As long as the fields overlap, there does not need to be any wired connection and now you get 2 coils running full cycles for the cost in energy of one. I have not tried this yet, but I will. I read this in one of my electronics books on induction toroids. Just my 2 cents.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: mdmiller on January 26, 2009, 03:18:50 PM

I have a 330uF 200V cap hung off the secondary of my JT (my battery is a bit run down at 0.6V). From the cap I am able to flash brightly a 2.5V standard filament bulb every 10 seconds or so . This is an old style Christmas light strand mini bulb, not LED. I believe these are .5W bulbs (it seems a 50 bulb strand is tagged at 25 watts).

If there were multiple secondary windings, how should they be ganged together to try to keep this bulb going ?? many thanks - Duane

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 26, 2009, 03:27:27 PM

This post is to show what can be done with the jt circuit or any other oscillator for that matter like slappers dc to dc switch. It involves torroidal transformers so I post it here for what it is worth. The main thing to remember is that a coil which shows highimpedance delays it's current flow.

A shorted highimpedance coil current will happen at a different time than the exciting magnetic saturation change. This phenomenon can be exploited on a solid state level also. Input spike on input winding saturates the core while inducing a voltage in a shorted highself induction coil. The current in this coil is delayed not effecting the impedance of the core to the exciter signal. Then current flows in shorted coil and is inductively coupled to the load windings. You could use two torroidal high frequency transformers for this. Pulse the primary on one. Feed the high voltage secondary to the primary of the second torroid. Feed the load from the secondary of number 2 torroid. Make sure to use a resonant lc setup to feed the pulses into the primary or exciter torroid. An active element like an avalanche diode in series with the exciter torroid output winding and the output torroid primary will help the tendency of the circuit to drift as the core magnetic parameters change. Active tuning of the oscillator always helps but the circuit should run with gain.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 26, 2009, 04:10:43 PM

@All

All ,the last experiment , i made a 4 turn bifilar jt , the pickup coil is 112 turn 30 wire , with a 1k resistor it gives me 22 volts , and on a 1 ohm 100 volts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 26, 2009, 04:53:50 PM

@ Mk1

I would guess that if you double the JT turns (from 4 to 8) you will get more voltage out of the secondary coil.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 26, 2009, 04:56:06 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 26, 2009, 04:10:43 PM
@All

All ,the last experiment , i made a 4 turn bifilar jt , the pickup coil is 112 turn 30 wire , with a 1k resistor it gives me 22 volts , and on a 1 ohm 100 volts.

MK1,
I am not at all sure about running these like this.

If the resistor to the base of the transistor is too low value, there will be more voltage at that base and more amperage from base to emitter and then it is in amplifier mode, not switching mode.

I think it is important to sort this out. The toroid will still be working its trick of making the light glow at lower than spec voltage, perhaps, but it may suck up too much juice while it is doing this.

I have seen lots of us doing this even the 220 ohm sounds too low to me, I really think this needs to be looked at.

thank you,

@ist,

Wow - 22 singles. I noticed your single turns are even less than what I was using. I will try this too.

Yes, my experience is also that this has polarity. only one way for those secondary wires on the led.

@xee,
Thank you for making that clear.

I guess it is 2 toroids in series, not 2 joule thiefs in series.

It makes a lot of sense. I need to go out for a bit. I will try it when I get back.

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 26, 2009, 05:58:31 PM

@ sparks ...

this what you mean ?? 8)

ist

all copper is mass to mass tuned ... they all weigh 1.8 g ea.

im a wind a supply jt for this unit and hook em all up

wonder what will happin .... :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 26, 2009, 06:44:10 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 26, 2009, 05:58:31 PM

purrrty = nice work, ist.

How many turns did you count for these?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 26, 2009, 07:02:22 PM

@Inno

Thats what I mean. But you series connect em. A pulse wave modulator will free you up to match the waveform to the input winding on the exciter torroid. You want to pulse it just enough so that you choke the current and harvest the magnetic field response. If your pulse duty cycle is too long you oversaturate the core and waste the input energy. I haven't studied the jule thief enough to see the exact components needed to accomplish this. But a pulse wave modulator becomes your vic or voltage input circuit. Then short out the "high voltage" winding on the exciter torroid using a primary on the ouput torroid. The trick is to get the torroid cores back to ground state before the next input pulse comes aboard.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on January 26, 2009, 07:14:21 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 26, 2009, 03:11:24 PM
@ Gary:

Why not just use induction and get the full cycle in both other coils at no extra cost? As long as the fields overlap, there does not need to be any wired connection and now you get 2 coils running full cycles for the cost in energy of one. I have not tried this yet, but I will. I read this in one of my electronics books on induction toroids. Just my 2 cents.

Bill

Bill

I have not got to the part where some of you are lighting LEDs with one tirn and apparently not loosing power by doing it .
If it was that simple every transformer would be OU .
I am not saying that it can't be done ...... I am saying that I can't do it yet .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 26, 2009, 07:14:55 PM

ok to get this correct the coils look proper now no jt .... i need to use a freq genny on sine wave to match the ressonance of my input winding... all else flows down the line ....

does this sound correct .. ?

ist!

building... :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 26, 2009, 07:28:21 PM

IST,

Yeah, I think your right. A joule thief will not work with this setup. The jt is only pulsing a DC voltage there is no AC sine wave. This is why the LED's on your 1 wrap output are polarized.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 26, 2009, 07:46:18 PM

Gotta agree with Mr. Magg. It would be real lucky if you could get the pulsed dc clocked out to match the primary impedance. It may work though if the core is run below saturation. It won't give you as much bang for the mass but might be good for a demo.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 26, 2009, 08:08:01 PM

Quote from: MrMag on January 26, 2009, 07:28:21 PM
IST,

Yeah, I think your right. A joule thief will not work with this setup. The jt is only pulsing a DC voltage there is no AC sine wave. This is why the LED's on your 1 wrap output are polarized.

well lets make it work ;D

can some one that has the skills and materials build the other half lol 8) the pnp

then we get amped sine from square ........ they must fire at the same time ... then send em down the line ...

but this will be a tricky task ... as the out put of the jt's must match the freq of the exciter coil but this is no toy when done correctly ... in my opinion ...

ist..

will hook the unit up to the freq genny ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on January 26, 2009, 08:26:50 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on January 26, 2009, 07:14:21 PM

Bill

I have not got to the part where some of you are lighting LEDs with one tirn and apparently not loosing power by doing it .
If it was that simple every transformer would be OU .
I am not saying that it can't be done ...... I am saying that I can't do it yet .

gary

in the jt, the transistor amplify the voltage.
but is not all of what make it light leds/neons, with or without, a secondary third coil.

yes, the amplify voltage alone can light multiple leds in parallel and possibly a few in series.
but it is the backemf that do the wonder.

the one turn secondary third coils energy is got, almost all, from the backemf only.
if one turn = < then what is need to light a led, then only the backemf is doing the work
EX: emf: one turn < 3 volt, backemf kick: = > 3 volts for a one turn

seem like the kick is a one way thing with the toroid.

we pick the rising but not the falling ?
does it propagate trough magnetism ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on January 26, 2009, 08:42:25 PM

Quote from: sparks on January 26, 2009, 03:27:27 PM
The main thing to remember is that a coil which shows highimpedance delays it's current flow.

A shorted highimpedance coil current will happen at a different time than the exciting magnetic saturation change

I am wondering if this could be used in conjunction with Paul Lowrences ideas
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6593.0
design 3 in particular

http://greenselfreliantenergy.com/forum/index.php?topic=201.0

design 3 used different core materials to affect the time it takes for the flux to change .

Would using core materials similar to what he would use help with these toroids?
Would Paul get better results if he used different impedances in his coils sets?

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 26, 2009, 09:21:24 PM

so i stuck that coil on the freq genny and scope .... looks like 180 -200 khz works best ...

i can see amplification on my scope ... out is bigger than inputted wave ..

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on January 26, 2009, 09:40:53 PM

@IST
the voltage stepping up does not suprise me, but...

that is strange.
i would have think that the tunelling diode would have changed the output signal trace.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 26, 2009, 09:46:32 PM

@Inno

That looks like open voltage measurements the problem is when you load down the secondary it wont be as pretty.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 26, 2009, 10:28:25 PM

your right sparks not as big but still verry pretty ;D

yes i lit my led from this ...the scope shoot is with the led lit

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 26, 2009, 10:46:50 PM

IST,

That's not a very nice looking sine wave. What happened?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 26, 2009, 11:10:40 PM

lol

well your not gonna like the next eather

;D

i hooked up the next coil what happined ? spikes??

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 26, 2009, 11:29:42 PM

@all

This is a very interesting document

Quote "A minor advantage of a solenoid-wound coaxial choke over a ferrite-ring type is that the line impedance Zo remains constant throughout the system."

http://www.smeter.net/feeding/transmission-line-choke-coils.php

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 26, 2009, 11:42:14 PM

@All,

I am not having a lot of luck piggy-backing 2 jt's, or 2 toroids, that is on 1 transistor.

There are only a few ways to connect them that do not turn out the lights of the first jt.

I can add a wire to the collector side in parallel to it, and one to the base and one into the pos. rail of the breadboard. When I do this the new light is very dim and as I touch the secondary wires of the new toroid to a light the other light (from the first jt) goes dim by what appears to be the same amount of light.

If I connect any wire of the new jt to the emitter, all the lights go out.

The amperage with the new one added is about 0.027, so it isn't costing much, but it isn't adding anything either.

If anyone wants to suggest a better way to put these 3 wires of the new jt, I am open to trying it, but I think this won't be the way to go.

Has anyone else tried this?
If so, did you get the same nil results?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 27, 2009, 12:09:44 AM

@ ist
I noted you got probs with the solar cells, ie low output .5v

Solar cells can be designed to operate best in bright sunlight or overcast days.
Some perform better if there is IR.

Try a different (light) frequency and let us know what happened

When you get the best output, try connecting in series and in series parallel (if you got enough solar pannels)

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 27, 2009, 01:16:59 AM

I think you will enjoy my latest video. You can view it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27QJ92ruzeE

What I did this time was to wire 2 Fuji AA circuits in parallel but, I only used 1 battery!!! I lit a 48" tube and you can see in the video how bright it gets when I switch on the 2nd circuit. I think this is significant and it is telling us something. Please look at this and tell me what you think. I believe this will directly apply to our toroid circuits as well. Thank you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 27, 2009, 01:45:04 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 27, 2009, 01:16:59 AM
I think you will enjoy my latest video. You can view it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27QJ92ruzeE

What I did this time was to wire 2 Fuji AA circuits in parallel but, I only used 1 battery!!! . Thank you.

Bill

I guess this it the way. Parallel.
today I only used a toroid for the second and it did not step it up. So, tomorrow, I guess, i'll go to work with some multiple wires on one toroid. I think without another resistor/transistor, there is nothing to be gained from adding a second toroid.

Nice video. My screen stopped to buffer just when the brightness flushed, and before the camera adjusted. It really is good and bright.

Would you be willing to see how long this will run?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 27, 2009, 02:26:31 AM

@ ist

I think that your last scope shot (both_coils_bigger_spikes.jpg) shows best what is happening. The spikes are the voltage when the LED is off (same as open circuit). When the LED turns on the voltage across it will be limited to the forward drop of the diode (about 2 to 3 volts).

EDIT: a diode does not obey ohms law.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 27, 2009, 02:33:53 AM

@ jeanna

If you want the LEDs to be as bright with two toroids in series then you will have to double the battery voltage so that the voltage across each coil is the same as with one coil. Bill was able to run two JT in parallel because the battery could provide twice the current. In series requites more voltage, in parallel requires more current for same brightness.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 27, 2009, 03:27:18 AM

@ gary ha ha ha ;D

Dip da pinkies in hot laytex cool rapidly in da fridge
Now ur pinkies r insulated from de caps.

jim

@all
De mouse war is to intensify, battle front is the kitchen n pantry
any suggestions please :D

I got a fast enemy, he is a grey blurr, he jumps real fast, gosh da enemy is quick :-\
he eats da cheese off de mouse trap, I betta glue cheese ona trap with tarsans grip?
:-X
No cats in town :o

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 27, 2009, 03:36:46 AM

@ Jim:

Don't use cheese in the traps, too easy to steal. Use peanut butter. They love it and while they are licking it off the trap........WHAM! It works, trust me.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 27, 2009, 04:54:41 AM

@ Bill
I got my 2 mouse traps ready
MT 1 will have cheeze
MT 2 will have Peanut Butter

Photo 0340 = Both setups with ingrediants ready to apply

Photo 0341 = Applying adhesieve to top of trip toungue of mouse trap,
Ammount = 1 drop, smear it a bit
Photo 0342 = Add cheeze to top of glue (its contact cement) squeese tight

Set mouse trap, and put on mouse trail.

Photo 0343 = PeaNut Butter (Bill swears by it) use a BIG HEAP or DOLLOP (well, I don't know the receipe)
Set trap and put on mouse trail.

What is going to happen,,,,, I tink da mousie will get bogged in the heep a peanut butter, might need 4 weel drive, lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 27, 2009, 05:00:52 AM

@ all
I have warned mouse enemy, if he proceeds its curtans ;D

To be continued 8)
jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 27, 2009, 05:20:47 AM

@ all
OK bout time I got back to reality it's JT time

Here is a circuit I just drawed up, how to connect 3 or more JTs in parallel
As we read back a few posts, from Xee2, connecting JT in series you/we/me need to up the voltage, 1 JT= 1.5v, 2 jt = 3v, 3 JT = 4.5v.

If JT is connected in parallel, for 2 JTs = C size cell, 3 JTs use D size cell, more than 10 JTs use a 1.2v High Capacity cell.

OK below the 1st circuit I have put a 1k pot to adjust the base current, the out from the emitter passes through a 5k pot.
Use this to adjust the amount of current you want to use to the base of all transisters.
If you want toput an extra pot between each TR, for ultra tune up, go for it, use a 10 turn trim pot.
10 turn T pot is a pot which has a 10 turn threaded screw, its used for extreamly fine adjustments of electrical circuits, use a small screwdriver to adjust it.

What the circuit does, simply.
We need to turn all transisters on and off in phase, or together.
All ON, and all OFF,
if they turn on and off out of sinc, it mucks up the magnetic fields in the torid.

What I'm trying to do is tripple the magnetic energy in the torid.

I think using a thick copper wire, more amps (mili amps) will be avaliable.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 27, 2009, 06:04:10 AM

@ all
jims

ELECTRICMEs MOUSE TRAP TEST

with a pretend paper mouse.

Have you taken your heart pills?
Have you taken the vallium?
Have you got a nerve of steel?
We shall
seeeeeeeeee

By the third time you play this TINY video,
you will JUMP with fright.

Faster than a bunjie cord
Is lightning faster than a sprung mouse trap?

You be the judge

ARE YOU READY
to
Click on the link below

ha ha ha ha ha

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 27, 2009, 06:49:23 AM

@all

I had i strange idea tonight,
well its 6 am now but there it is.I was looking at a alternator schematic and got the idea of making one on a toroid, to test delta and star wiring , It will need a picture but let me tell you about it anyway ,i have created 6 divided parts on the toroid 3 per wire in a double triangle shape one up , one down (each space are 5 turns) and i added 6 pickup coil (all14 turns) covering 3 parts of the toroid each. Those 6 pickup coil gives me a steady 22 volts each , now i will be able to wire 3 in a delta and rectify and the other in star and rectify to see witch i prefer.

I may have some real ac in there since each 6 parts are wired in opposite poles and falling to ground. I really need a scope.

The regular 2n3904 , 1 k .

More later , i am not sure if that is right , i got to go to bed , lol

Mark

Edit : @Pirate

nice video

@Electricme

nice design i will try it !

@jeanna

2 jt in series you really need to change the resistor , it cost in run time.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 27, 2009, 07:12:42 AM

@Jeanna
That is so Interesting what you are doing . I made a new toroid with 11 turns two wires . and tried the one turn thing . I have a bunch of red leds with wires already on them 4 inches long . you don't even need to wrap them at all just stick one lead thru the hole ,polarized and they light up with no noticeable loss of input current /volts or brightness . Much more light/ns current than running them the normal way off the collector emmiter . Fascinating !. Also tried the 11 turn toroid with the earthbattery . it will not light at all . the earth battery will run a jt with a smaller toroid with 20 turns+ the normal way but will not light one turn leds .
@electricme
funny . any bets that the peanut butter will get em first :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 27, 2009, 08:17:01 AM

Quote from: resonanceman on January 26, 2009, 01:34:23 PM
IST

didn't you say at one time that you can achieve OU by driving a ciol with a PWM ?

If we made a T connection to the output of a JT and put a diode on each end of the T couldn't we feed a half cycle to 2 different coils?

That's the setup for a Schottky diode, I think. Hook the coils to the outer two and the jt to the center ;D Isn't their deal that they have a low resistence?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 27, 2009, 08:17:45 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 27, 2009, 01:16:59 AM
I think you will enjoy my latest video. You can view it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27QJ92ruzeE

What I did this time was to wire 2 Fuji AA circuits in parallel but, I only used 1 battery!!! I lit a 48" tube and you can see in the video how bright it gets when I switch on the 2nd circuit. I think this is significant and it is telling us something. Please look at this and tell me what you think. I believe this will directly apply to our toroid circuits as well. Thank you.

Bill

I did a four joule thieves parallel circuit that worked on one 1.5v battery. There was three different transformers and one of the parallel circuits was with an inductor. So I belive that you could make a parallel circuit with four camera circuits with just one 1.5v battery. If it work. We will see the whole worktable you use when the lights are off.

I could be wrong though.

@all
This is the best thread from this forum for me!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 27, 2009, 08:53:38 AM

@All
I have to report some success! I got an LED to light using my small JT powered by my Earth Batteries. Notice I used the plural because I had to use two earth batteries in parallel. Right now I have two copper pipe and galvanized spike batteries and one copper pipe and magnesium battery. I had to hook one of the copper/spike batts and the copper/magnesium battery in parallel. The copper/mag produces 1.35vdc, but only like 2mA. The copper/spike would give only .3 or so vdc but approx 90mA. I seriously think I'm doing something wrong with my batteries, because there are others that have gotten way better results with just the copper/spike setup. The small JT made the LED light, although not very bright. It was just a regular red LED from a big multi-pack. I need to wait until the ground dries a little to play around with the position of the magnesium. I need to try this with my big JT with the Darlington on it before I put the TIP3055 on it.

@Bill
What material wire did you use to come from your magnesium? All I had available was copper wire. I used it bare so it would make contact. What do you use to come from the carbon rod? I need to just suck it up and buy mine so I can get some juice ;D
Then I will have your setup. Carbon rod & 3 magnesium fire starters, correct?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 27, 2009, 09:08:02 AM

Quote from: xee2 on January 27, 2009, 02:26:31 AM
@ ist

I think that your last scope shot (both_coils_bigger_spikes.jpg) shows best what is happening. The spikes are the voltage when the LED is off (same as open circuit). When the LED turns on the voltage across it will be limited to the forward drop of the diode (about 2 to 3 volts).

EDIT: a diode does not obey ohms law.

i thought those spikes are well beond 2 to 3 v but at a better look they are not... :)

but it is all good

i did lite 4 leds np from that unit but they were not as bright as the jt i think there easyer ways to get there than all the resonant tuneing and stuff like that but who knows ... when i did hook the high self inductance winding to the low one through the diode input wave changed ... as well did the out put the spikes grew ... why?

well as i see it it was because the 2 coils of equal mass but diffrent inductances ..

here is another 1 of my projects im doing .. and i wondered if i could get a little help with it ;D

i want to switch pos and neg but i want diodes on both sides so ... what could i use...?

im not a big electronics guy ... so i do not know thease things ... but is there a diode for neg?? meaning only allowing neg to flow out of the diode and block all else that tryes to return to it ..

basicly i want blocking diodes both ways ... hummm

the only reason for this is so some of you can build it :)

i really do not need diodes ... but it will make it quick and easy for everyone ...

i have a bunch of diodes but they must be the wrong ones .. or i cant get them hooked up properly for my job

can some one let me know ...

i will draw a pic of what i want to do but i need help with the correct parts...

thanks ..

ist!

now i have come up with another way to do the same ...

i will explain it now ... but i want to use dc to do this ... so the only way i can come up with in my mind now is this ... i have not given much thought to this .. but i will fire away any ways..

ac and a bridge rectifier ... this way we convert the real ac ... to dc and pulse .. as i see it can never return to source through the bridge ... any other way it seams to be trickey

i have a varryack

this is not for kids.... this will HURT YOU ... so dont be dumb...

as i remember sm had to use a bridge on the input side ... b4 the transformer ... probally to block it ... so it was forced to look for the next path .. this is my thinking bout this it is not a question of if it works .... i know it works ...

and i have a unit i made long ago that does this but the supply has an over load in it so it blocks the return this is how i figured this out ..

when it over loads the bulb is SUPER BRIGHT I MEAN SUPER BRIGHT video does not do it justice ... yes i know it is only a 7.5watt 120 bulb and the power supply was 19v 4 amp ... but point is it can not lite the bulb ... dirrectly from the supply it is really dim

just a few more ideas ...

this seams to me to be similar to the jt.... where the input cant power the load alone ... ;)

i will add 1 more pic... ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 27, 2009, 09:35:35 AM

this unit apears to charge a battery at a good rate...

but im useing power but as i beleave... more is returned.... than what is used ..

agin i may be wrong ...

ist!

in the unit that charges batteries ... i used 0 diodes only what ever is in the supply wich i have not taken apart yet ..

and the battery was hooked to the secondary of the mot :)

you can watch it climb with every pulse ... the battery ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 27, 2009, 09:35:38 AM

@Inno

The scope shot on the input is a voltage shot. You want the voltage across the input as high as you can get it. Take your input from the pwm and take a look at it with no load on it. This is what you want to see when your unit is operating. High as you can go the better. You want voltage high or impeded by the primary. Just pulse that input coil until the voltage is just as high as when the coil wasn't in the circuit. Now short out your secondary with a lightbulb or lowohm resistor. Readjust your pulse to get it back as high as it will go. Now as Yucca suggested if you want you can feedback the ouput winding to primary winding and disconnect the pwm all together. Put another winding like the primary on the torroid to get it excited and pulse it again adjusting the pwm to it's highest voltage. Put your load parallel to the hv and the primary parallel connection and see if you can lightup the bulb. You smell something cooking it will be best to put a fuse in there because in theory you will be able to shutoff the pwm and everything will stay running in the mains. Like Yucca said kinda TPUish.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 27, 2009, 09:41:09 AM

@All
I did some searching and came up with a small circuit using a new o volt Fet Osc .. This thing is capable of oscillating at voltage as low as 0.16 volts indicating it could be used to drive a Joule thief by hand or body power alone ! I am going to get one as soon as i can sell something ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 27, 2009, 09:45:51 AM

if you can draw it up i will build it ...

im not so good at reading and building ...

its more playing for me when i find something that does not make simple sence to me i question it

but it is indeed kinda hard as i dont know exactly how electricty is suspoto act ...

lol

im a gonna fire up my old charger unit ...

shoot a video ...

ist..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 27, 2009, 10:24:39 AM

@Inno

Quick one gotta go. green coils low impedance fat wire few turns. Red wire fine lots of turns right next to each other equal mass to primary green coils.
Diode high power.
Neon across pwm signal for protection and also a small signal diode in both legs.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: rensseak on January 27, 2009, 10:26:07 AM

there ist a post from Mannix with a simulation file you should really look.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5486.msg153284#msg153284

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 27, 2009, 10:33:50 AM

im gonna be building for weeks lol

im running a battery off my charger unit to see how well it charges ...

it was compleatly dead ....

12vdc lawn tractor battery ..

sparks i got a 1 peice yoke just perfect for this one ... ill build it ...

1 question when you return ... if i may ... what is the relationship between the pwm coil and the other 2 in relation to length and weight i see you made the coil smaller

any how im gonna build it wile the other unit runs ..

ist

got it all done .... yep looks kool... thease are the gages lengths and weights of most of the wires...

primary trigger wire ... 14 ga 2' probally will rewind this one ...10.7g
secondary primary.. 14ga 4' 21.4g
secondary fine 28ga longggggg 21.4 g

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 27, 2009, 05:25:41 PM

@ MK1:

Thanks for your comment on my latest video.

@ All:

I am now, finally going to try winding some secondaries. A quick question comes to mind. Can a secondary be wound bifilar? Where there be any advantage to doing this? Or, is it not a good idea to try? I am going to try some simple single wire single turn, then a few more turns, to see what I can get. I am going to try the induction method of connecting the secondary. Most of you folks are way ahead of me with this type of experiment. Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 27, 2009, 05:32:25 PM

@pirate

Have fun ! try anything , test everything for power , if the meter don't show anything try a led on it anyway!

@sparks

Thanks! for all your contributions!

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 27, 2009, 05:55:46 PM

@ Pirate88179

I do not think it makes much difference if secondary is bifilar or not. But I think a good experiment would be to make a bifilar secondary and then see if there is any difference between a single wire of the bifilar secondary and both wires tied together as a single wire for the secondary. I would not expect much difference but Jeana is seeing a higher voltage with a large diameter wire for the secondary so maybe using both wires together as one wire will also increase the secondary voltage.

EDIT: Correction, I think jeana was seeing same voltage but more current with larger diameter wire. If each wire of the bifilar produces the same voltage and current then putting them together should give an output with the same voltage but twice the current.

EDIT 2: The wires are like separate batteries. If two batteries are put in parallel the voltage is the same but more current is available.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 27, 2009, 06:58:11 PM

well my little mot / laptop power supply pulse charger has been running a few hours now and it is rechargeing my dead battery ..

it is holding a charge dont think it is useing much power from the wall i have not checked there is a tiny amount of heat in the laptop charger and a tiny amount in the transformer other than that ... seams to be fine battery is at 4 vdc now ...

i used a diode as it would not hold the charge in the battery it wanted to flow back out ... noticed this after a bit .... lol

the yoke is done i will post a pic .. have not played it yet

ist!

i also want to build a 2 or 3 cam tranny board to drive the 1 watt led at full brightness ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 27, 2009, 09:02:03 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 27, 2009, 05:25:41 PM
Can a secondary be wound bifilar? Where there be any advantage to doing this?

Yes, please do this.
It is what I was doing and I want replications.
EDIT: MK1 was also doing this although his design was different in other ways as well.

QuoteOr, is it not a good idea to try?

go for it

QuoteI am going to try some simple single wire single turn, then a few more turns, to see what I can get. I am going to try the induction method of connecting the secondary.

thank you.

please do it,

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 27, 2009, 09:23:17 PM

@ MK 1:

Ok, thanks, I will see what happens.

@ Xee2:

Yes, thanks for the info. Tying the bifilar secondaries together would in effect double the mass of the wire. (single wire) I guess the only way to find out is to have a go at it.

@ Jeanna:

Will do. I knew you were ahead of me on this. I will go back and review your posts and then give it a go. Thank you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 27, 2009, 09:40:08 PM

@Bill,

I want to put these together so it is easier for you and for everyone. They get spread apart so quickly, plus I read the wrong lines of my notes in one of my posts adding to the confusion. (sorry)

3 jt's with different numbers of winds as follows
After I made the rectifier thing, I went back and tested the rectified voltage for each direction coming off the secondaries. Yes, they are polarized, and they give a different voltage reading in each direction. So:

#1- 11 turns bifilar as described in evilmadsci.com 20 turns (red 30 gauge magwire)
16 volts dc I only checked one way on this one.

#2 as much as I could like MK1 (so I called it the MK1) 7 turns bifilar/separated and on opposite sides of ring.
52 turns secondary starting at bottom, 13 up 13 down continuing in same direction extending on other side 13 up then 13 down. (22 gauge mag wire)

29 rectified volts one way
28 rectified volts going the other way.

#3 11 turns bifilar as described by evilmadsci.com (but secondary like MK1 so I called it hybrid.)
52 turns secondary starting at bottom, 13 up 13 down continuing in same direction extending on other side 13 up then 13 down. (22 gauge mag wire) (like the MK1)

29 rectified volts one way
25 rectified volts the other way.

The amperage on all of these is within 1 milliamp of each other. .024A no matter how many turns on the secondary.

I sure hope this clarifies.

Please ask any questions.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 27, 2009, 10:03:35 PM

Later I went back and tested to see if the gauge of the wire made any difference.

It seemed that it did NOT make any difference to the voltage or the amperage.

I had a small change between the voltage and amperage required to use the secondaries to run different amounts of lights.

12 lights (1.09V)(0.023A) and
30 lights (0.87V)(0.019A)

200millivolts difference between running 12 lights and 30 lights.
4 milliamps difference between running 12 lights and 30 lights.

Thanks for replicating.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 28, 2009, 12:57:43 AM

just twisted up another jt 5 secondaries wound another 11 secondaries the same as this one just thinner wire

ill fire them up tommorow ..

ist

i did use the watch battery to power the 24 led ring it did lite the leds... just not as bright .. hardly noticeable the diff in the day time tho ...

im hopeing my 2nd coil pictured will power my 1 watt led to full brightness from an aa if not ... well on 2 to or 3 cam units to do so

being that my COSMIC JT ROSE .. coil lit 22 leds indivually fed ..... you guys think they can power cam flash units...?

i have a bunch of thease lower diodes like 4002 - 4005 if i put some diodes in place of the leds and a big cap do you think it will charge faster?

you know me just wondering ;D

i guess really what i could do is to gang all the neg's togather to the cap and just take sepreate pos's off the leds ... lol as they are diodes already :o

gonna work a bit more on the wagon wheel 007 coil ... :)

im a little short on materials but i have enough for the next part ... gonna close the ring in ... i never cut the welding rods yet i may not cut em .. when i picture this unit NOTICE ..... it is work in progress ....... so it is not correct nor finished ... im always open to improvements ....

but this will be built to expariment with :) kinda like coil plugg n play lol

well that did not end out so well lol slid off the table to a pile on the floor :(

oh well start over ... i think i have to cut the rods there is no other way they are too long .... the darn ring is over 3' errrrrrr...

back at it ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 28, 2009, 07:13:32 AM

@all

Here is something to treasure and share.
Keep the good work!

@innovation and @jeanna

Lately you are the most active members in relation with the coil experimentation.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 28, 2009, 08:38:51 AM

http://amasci.com/tesla/tmistk.html (http://amasci.com/tesla/tmistk.html)

I made the long "secondary coil" as shown on this page. The page said wire wrapped around a long thin plastic rod. So, I used a coat-hanger ;D

I wrapped the long straight part with insulated 18 gauge solid copper. I will try doing two small primary coils using a few turns of magnet wire and see if this gives me anything. Hopefully something like this could help with the pickup coil experiments for our JT's.

And, like shown on the page, I'm going to HAVE to try the setup in the picture where the setup is split in two and they are connected by Earth. Ground power transmission!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: flathunter on January 28, 2009, 01:43:58 PM

Thanks to everyone on here for making this such an interesting thread.

Finally got round to completing my first joule thief (standard version like on evil mad scientist vid) and its lighting up at least 5 LEDs, but could probably do way more, I just aint got round to connecting more. Give me time, and i'm hoping for bigger things :) Just as we all are. I love your videos Pirate. Great stuff that really shows what can be achieved with this little blighter. Just one question: I understand you lit those 40 W tubes from the standard set up for the joule thief. I mean you didnt use any extra pick up coils on the toroid, as shown in Jesus' great diagrams with Jeannna's set up. Is this true? Did you just connect the tube into 2 transistor terminals? Or am I missing something??? Wouldnt be the first time!

Lucky experimenting!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 28, 2009, 01:53:03 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on January 28, 2009, 07:13:32 AM
Jesus

@jesus,
Thank you again for a beautiful recap illustration.

There is a change I would like you to make, please. If I understand the drawing that you made on the different types of transistors, the side pictured with the diode symbol is the emitter. The 2N3904 being american made then is reversed from your schematic.

The emitter should be on the upper side, because it belongs on the more positive side of this circuit. The collector connects directly to the negative battery side.

(I personally have trouble with these things because I am dyslexic and have a hard time knowing if I am looking at something in mirror view or straight, so please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe it should be as I stated.)

thank you,

jeanna

ADD EDIT:

@Timmy

QuoteAnd, like shown on the page, I'm going to HAVE to try the setup in the picture where the setup is split in two and they are connected by Earth. Ground power transmission!

Oh yes, please do! I have a copy of that whole page on my laptop that I saved and occasionally pour over. I'd love to see and later share your results.

thank you.

@Flathunter,

welcome. Good job.

I think Bill is working days so I will give you an answer to your question.

He was using the fujiAA circuit when he lit up all those fluoros and christmas led strings. His latest video with 2 of them in parallel, are also the fujiAA circuit as modified.

I am we are also trying to get this effect with the little hand wound ones. I don't think we have done it yet. But, I may have missed something...easily done on this lightning thread!

thank you and please give the details. were you lighting your lights with a secondary too?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 28, 2009, 02:11:00 PM

Quote from: flathunter on January 28, 2009, 01:43:58 PM
Thanks to everyone on here for making this such an interesting thread.

Finally got round to completing my first joule thief (standard version like on evil mad scientist vid) and its lighting up at least 5 LEDs, but could probably do way more, I just aint got round to connecting more. Give me time, and i'm hoping for bigger things :) Just as we all are. I love your videos Pirate. Great stuff that really shows what can be achieved with this little blighter. Just one question: I understand you lit those 40 W tubes from the standard set up for the joule thief. I mean you didnt use any extra pick up coils on the toroid, as shown in Jesus' great diagrams with Jeannna's set up. Is this true? Did you just connect the tube into 2 transistor terminals? Or am I missing something??? Wouldnt be the first time!

Lucky experimenting!

Thank you for your compliments on my videos. I really appreciate that. All of my tube experiments as well as the high number of leds illuminated were all done using the modified Fuji AA circuit. This is a circuit made by removing the guts from a Fuji disposable camera. I first saw this done on Josepino's site. I hooked mine up a little differently than he did which may be why I can light a lot more than he said he can on his site, I don't really know. My latest video was made using 2 modified Fuji AA circuits running in parallel off of one AA battery lighting a 48" tube to a higher light output level than I got by using the single circuit.

On my other videos, I have used the "standard" joule thief circuit as seen on evil mad scientists site. Mine again are a little different as are many of the others on here but, that is the basic design. I try to show each circuit I am using in a given experiment in my videos so you should be able to tell which is which. (I hope)

Welcome to our group here. The more folks we have trying different things, the more we all will learn about these cool circuits. We look forward to any results you wish to post from your own explorations. There is a ton of information buried in all of the back pages but there are a lot of very knowledgeable folks working here that can steer you in the right direction if you need any help. Good luck and again, welcome.

@ Jeanna:

Thanks for re-capping your secondary work. This will make it much easier for me to attempt to replicate. I really appreciate that.

@ Jesus:

Thank you for posting the schematic of Jeanna's circuits. This will be very helpful to a lot of folks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 28, 2009, 03:08:53 PM

;D

do i ever feel stupid lol !! 8)

ist!
;D

@jenna lol did you just fold your 1 turn wire in half and stick it in the center or did you make 1 compleate turn round the ring ...

ok guys lol ....

now insted of leds ...... COILS ...... ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 28, 2009, 04:11:40 PM

@ jeanna

The transistor symbol is correct. There are many ways to draw the symbol. The key difference is which way the arrow is pointing since that tells if it is an NPN or PNP transistor.

EDIT: A NPN transistor turns on when the base is about 0.5 volts more positive than the emitter. A PNP transistor turns on when the base is about 0.5 volts more negative than the emitter.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 28, 2009, 05:12:18 PM

@all

I found something interesting for kubikop http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=zfuShlR8-pI

It runs a 555 timer circuit from the jt, We could use the idea !

First jt runs the 555 circuit, than we use that 555 to switch the second jt toroid , if we do this the freq will not be affected by the change in voltage,

Why is this important ?

Well , the major problem is that the freq is the key to everything,

ex : if the battery is to low the led will flash , not because there is not enough power but because its not switching fast enough, then you adjust the resistor to base to get it going again. (not a problem in 555 circuit)

ex:If the excess energy is feed back in the input(feed to source, or exponential experiment) the raise in voltage will kill the output power!
the jt works it best a 1.5 volt, but only because the switching is in range, using a 555 circuit would permit the same speed of switching (freq) at different voltage maybe exponential .

Thank you all , and to kubikop!

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 28, 2009, 05:22:20 PM

http://www.raztec.co.nz/sensors.html

Any of you know about hall !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 28, 2009, 06:51:33 PM

Quote from: xee2 on January 28, 2009, 04:11:40 PM
@ jeanna

The transistor symbol is correct. There are many ways to draw the symbol.

OK, what I want in the drawing is for the example that is on the bottom right hand corner of your 6 examples. The one with the emitter drawn at the top. This is the one that represents what I did in the drawing jesus made.

Thanks for the explanation.

In fact,

@MK1, You said something that I want to address about the exponential effect. We cannot add to the base without making the transistor turn off. but we ought to be able to use the emitter to another base with a similar circuit using the output from the first jt to flow into this second transistor base. I think ist drew something like that last night. Again, not the first or original base, that is left alone, but the base of a new transistor in a new similar arrangement. This I think should give us the kind of amplification that is in a camera circuit. Maybe weaker, which is probably OK too.

Quote
@jenna lol did you just fold your 1 turn wire in half and stick it in the center or did you make 1 compleate turn round the ring ...

@ist, I did one complete turn around. I would say that it could appear to be 1 1/2 turns when compared to the way you did yours yesterday.

@All,
I have been trying to make a mk1 with a different toroid material, and having no results, but it is my plan to make a new toroid turned to allow more wires in the center to look at some of what Ist has been doing.

Fantastic, really.

thanks everybody,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 28, 2009, 07:03:25 PM

@ Jeanna:

I think you just described the Darlington transistor arrangement. Others can correct me if I am wrong but it sounds like that is what you are suggesting to hook up. If only you thought of this 30 years earlier, it could have been named the Jeanna Transistor. What I always wondered about the Darlington, not the ones you buy but the ones you make from 2 transistors, is why could one not make 3,4 or five transistors hooked together like this?

This just shows that you have good thinking skills Jeanna. Good job.

Darlington transistor
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Circuit diagram of Darlington configuration

In electronics, the Darlington transistor (often called a Darlington pair) is a semiconductor device which combines two bipolar transistors in a single device so that the current amplified by the first is amplified further by the second[1]. This configuration gives a high current gain (written Î², hfe, or hFE) and can take less space than two separate transistors because the two transistors can use a shared collector. Integrated circuit packages are available, but it is still common also to use two separate transistors.

The Darlington configuration was invented by Bell Laboratories engineer Sidney Darlington in 1953. He patented the idea of having two or three transistors on a single chip (and sharing a single collector), but not that of an arbitrary number (which might have covered all modern integrated circuits)[2].

A similar configuration but with transistors of opposite type (NPN and PNP) is the Sziklai pair, which sometimes called the "complementary Darlington."

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 28, 2009, 07:15:14 PM

Quote from: jeanna on January 28, 2009, 06:51:33 PM

@MK1, You said something that I want to address about the exponential effect. We cannot add to the base without making the transistor turn off.

I know Jeanna ,all i am saying a 555 in place of the transistor would do a better job , because it will not have a problem with higher voltage, the transistor is not used to anything but switching in this jt circuit its not there to amplify anything.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on January 28, 2009, 07:47:02 PM

@MK1
there is an amplification in the jt.

what i think you meant is:
it is not the amplification that does the job, it is the frequency of the kicks.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 28, 2009, 07:49:19 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 28, 2009, 07:03:25 PM
@ Jeanna:

I think you just described the Darlington transistor arrangement.

HA!

QuoteWhat I always wondered about the Darlington, not the ones you buy but the ones you make from 2 transistors, is why could one not make 3,4 or five transistors hooked together like this?

I think they do in IC's and in computers. I think this is the main thing of the logic gates used in our computers.

Thanks for this info. I had been meaning to look up Darlington transistors for a while, but I kept forgetting.

jeanna

ADD EDIT

Quotebut switching in this jt circuit its not there to amplify anything.

I was trying to say that exact thing. We are using the transistor as a switch, not as an amplifier. but now that you mention it ... It really isn't a bad idea. Since a transistor does both things. hmm.

I am not in favor of complicating this, but I might want to let someone explore this complication.

Go for it. I am watching.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 28, 2009, 08:14:36 PM

Quote from: timmy1729 on January 27, 2009, 08:53:38 AM
@All
I have to report some success! I got an LED to light using my small JT powered by my Earth Batteries. Notice I used the plural because I had to use two earth batteries in parallel. Right now I have two copper pipe and galvanized spike batteries and one copper pipe and magnesium battery. I had to hook one of the copper/spike batts and the copper/magnesium battery in parallel. The copper/mag produces 1.35vdc, but only like 2mA. The copper/spike would give only .3 or so vdc but approx 90mA. I seriously think I'm doing something wrong with my batteries, because there are others that have gotten way better results with just the copper/spike setup. The small JT made the LED light, although not very bright. It was just a regular red LED from a big multi-pack. I need to wait until the ground dries a little to play around with the position of the magnesium. I need to try this with my big JT with the Darlington on it before I put the TIP3055 on it.

@Bill
What material wire did you use to come from your magnesium? All I had available was copper wire. I used it bare so it would make contact. What do you use to come from the carbon rod? I need to just suck it up and buy mine so I can get some juice ;D
Then I will have your setup. Carbon rod & 3 magnesium fire starters, correct?

@ Timmy:

I had posted this photo before back somewhere. I simply made a ring of stranded copper wire and tinned it with my soldering iron. I made it so the ID of the ring fit tightly to the OD of the carbon rods. Then I soldered on a small connector ring on each one to make it easy for alligator clip attachment .For the mag. blocks I simply tied them together with plastic wire ties and then clipped onto one of the blocks (using the hole) with the alligator clip on one of my test leads. I have seen no indication of damage to any of the connections due to dissimilar wire contact. I was worried about that with the copper but perhaps the coating of solder prevent this...I don't really know. With a little more thought, you or someone else can come up with a better system I am sure but this has worked well for me. when I get back outside experimenting, if I come up with any improvements, I will let you know. sorry for the delay in responding to your post but it got buried a few pages back.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 28, 2009, 08:21:28 PM

Pirate where did you get carbon rods from . and how big are they . The only ones i can find are in d cells old carbon zinc ones ??? My earth battery is Jukin now i found a big copper pipe and drove it today . almost full bright with 25 turn jt the normal way one led . I have one negitive and two positive stakes now . 1.25 volts .02ma

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 28, 2009, 08:24:18 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 28, 2009, 05:12:18 PM
@all

I found something interesting for kubikop http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=zfuShlR8-pI

It runs a 555 timer circuit from the jt, We could use the idea !

First jt runs the 555 circuit, than we use that 555 to switch the second jt toroid , if we do this the freq will not be affected by the change in voltage,

Why is this important ?

Well , the major problem is that the freq is the key to everything,

ex : if the battery is to low the led will flash , not because there is not enough power but because its not switching fast enough, then you adjust the resistor to base to get it going again. (not a problem in 555 circuit)

ex:If the excess energy is feed back in the input(feed to source, or exponential experiment) the raise in voltage will kill the output power!
the jt works it best a 1.5 volt, but only because the switching is in range, using a 555 circuit would permit the same speed of switching (freq) at different voltage maybe exponential .

Thank you all , and to kubikop!

Mark

Mark i cant find that circuit anywhere as stated by kubikop in his comments ..Do you have it i want to rplicate this . all i can find is 555 blinker circuit . TIA

Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: amigo on January 28, 2009, 08:44:55 PM

To everyone:

I feel you are going on a side trip here, and away from the primary function JT was created to do - power the LED for a longest time possible. This expanding of the circuits, doubling, adding more components, coils etc, all comes at a cost of battery "juice."

There are some absolutes one should set to work with, before going forward. Use one 1.5 battery (or two, whatever), use minimum current consumption with maximum gains (sorry no OU here but thats not the idea is it?).

An example goal (or the primary, or only one) should be the illumination - drive as many LEDs as possible to light up a room. We all know that the moment power goes out it's dark and everyone needs light.
If heat is your goal, I suggest you hop over to Dr. Stiffler's excellent thread on SEC and read it through instead of this one.

This is not meant to be a critique of anyone's work, but personally I see nothing of significance accomplished here in the past 200 pages.

Everyone learned something new and that is excellent. Discussion opened avenues for new ideas and thoughts, which can be seen in posts here, but that's diverging from the main subject as well.

What's absolutely lacking is a scientific method, and I don't mean the modern science where they "cook the books" and doctor the results.

I mean the method from 100 years ago or more: observation, recording and measuring, reproduction and understanding. Some bits and pieces but not much really. Nobody seems to be concerned with current consumption for example. Instead this last page now goes to propose use of additional circuitry such as 555 timer.

You know, if this JT circuit is going to consume 150mA at the end, then you might as well just scrap the whole thing and go buy a real PWM module that's used to commercially drive LEDs at far less current, with 90% or better efficiency.

My 2c...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Light on January 28, 2009, 08:45:12 PM

â€œnow insted of leds ...... COILS ......
- Here it is, as many as u want, but thereâ€™s still no amperage, weâ€™re dealing with voltage transformer and nothing else ;Dâ€¦ until at least one of the coils gets in real backemf setupâ€¦

â€œSay Watt ? Stop It .
- I better not. Watt and w.hr is only way to see what r u dealing with.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 28, 2009, 09:13:20 PM

@Amego
Hello their . First off there have been improvement made. Just look at a regular Joule thief . It will run for about three days with the led hooked up to the collector +em miter . Now Jeanna has Discovered we can run 20+ Leds from the back spike alone with less current draw and more light for a longer period of time than the Jt that was originally in the first few pages of this thread . . This thread is going forward or maybe its not moving fast enuff for you :) As far as Commercial PWM are concerned there 60 plus bucks. This project cost a little less than a few bucks . you can buy a string of 100 leds for 2 bucks . the transistors and toroids are free from junk . I have just finished converting all my Flashlights and ringed lights that took 4 battery's to one battery only using Jeanna's Mod .. The ones i did yesterday are running strong on dead battery's they woundn't run one day with four .This is way more efficient that just a Jt . Say Watt ? Stop It . Go to Dr Sniffler's thread this thread is just fine like it is . where is your Contribution to this thread ? Have you build one like it stands now ??we are ready to move on so bring on the 555 Circuit !!Personally i got little lightys everywhere but not before i read this thread . Current draw is always on our minds and this is Pirates thread , we are Just Visitors and should BE positive and Understanding and Helpful ,. There is enuff Negitive People in the world and this is not the place i want to see them . I have fun here and Build and Learn quite alot and im ready to Expend a little Current for experimenting for a good project . The Goal Here is to get something useful from a jt be it a Fugi camera Circuit or what ever and thats what is being done .No one has done what has been done here and recorded it . Light 400 leds or a cfl from a 1 volt battery .. I don't think so .
Al

@IST . Keep Going Man Looking good . !!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: amigo on January 28, 2009, 09:22:31 PM

Hi gadgetmall,

Thanks for reading my post. I guess you misunderstood my intention or perhaps I did not come across the way I wanted.

To answer your questions, I was on Dr. Stiffler's thread on SEC and still am following it. Matter a fact I was among the first people to replicate his findings, and I can say there's merit to what he wrote about. Further more, his circuit is far more superior to JT in possibilities and will drive many LEDs and motors and what not. Go check it out if you get a chance...

I was at the point where you are now with JT many months ago, and you still have a way to go to catch up with me ;)

I just wanted to share some insight, but I guess you prefer to make your own mistakes rather than learning from the mistakes of others.

No worries, to err is human as they say, I just don't believe we all should repeat the same lessons. :)

Cheers!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 28, 2009, 09:37:49 PM

Thanks Amego for your understanding . I investigated Dr Stifflers Page a month ago and decided that his experiments took too much test equipment and Particular Parts that it won't for me . I think i stopped when the Radioactive component was mentioned :) Also you Mention that you were at the point we are now months ago . Could you post a Link with your Design and Measurements please ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 28, 2009, 09:41:20 PM

@ Amigo:

With all due respect, I too have been following Dr. Stiffler's work and I will say that I have not seen him illuminate 400 leds from less than 1.5 vdc AND a tiny amount of mA's. I am not comparing our work to Dr. Stiffler's at all. He is going one way, we are going the other. With this circuit, someone could use the power that would normally charge their cell phone and run 800 or more leds. To me, that means something. If you have another direction you think we should explore, that's fine, we would welcome that. But, to convince us I think you would need to post your experimental results from having already gone that direction. If you do, and it is interesting, others will follow.

Again, I really do not mean any disrespect at all here. I followed your replications of Dr. Stiffler's work along with others on his topic. You did some great work there and I am sure we could all benefit from your knowledge and experience here. Please join in if you think you can offer something to help us, and if you really feel we are going down a dead end, then, I guess that will be seen in the future one way or another. Either way, I am having a lot of fun and I am learning a lot from everyone here sharing information in a respectful way. Sad to say but this is rare on any online forum including this one. Please feel welcome to join us if you want to. Thanks for your posts.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 28, 2009, 09:46:31 PM

i love to build things lol

so i built more.... ;D

aircore jt anyone :)

sure it works lol

since i just love to build i built the next one too ;D

garden wire bifillar copper COLLECTOR then the usual air core jt ;D

naw never ran it yet ... i dont see why it wont work... hummmm

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 28, 2009, 09:48:46 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on January 28, 2009, 08:21:28 PM
Pirate where did you get carbon rods from . and how big are they . The only ones i can find are in d cells old carbon zinc ones ??? My earth battery is Jukin now i found a big copper pipe and drove it today . almost full bright with 25 turn jt the normal way one led . I have one negitive and two positive stakes now . 1.25 volts .02ma

I bought these from a local company called "Airgas". They are also national and on the internet. I paid $20.00 for my carbon rod which is 1"OD x 18" long. Or, was. I have since cut it into 2 pieces 9" long. let me know if you can't find them. there may be cheaper places but last year I searched for a long time and this was the best bang for the buck. Others wanted $100.00 for 1/2" OD x 6" long. It pays to shop around. these, to my understanding, are used in the welding industry as cut-off rods. They may not be used as much as in the past which is why I had to order mine. I have also seen carbon welding rods which are copper clad. These cost more and I think you would have to remove the copper which would be a waste. PM me if you need a part number or website. I don't have it handy or I would post it. I can find it if you need it. Actually, I think I looked it up for Timmy so maybe he can post it? Carbon is basically pretty cheap so, do not pay too much here.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 28, 2009, 09:55:55 PM

Hi everybody,

I just want to say a little bit about a surprise today. (for me anyway)

Someone, I can't remember who - sorry- has suggested a couple of times to reduce the number of primary bifilar turns and proceed. I needed more room in my ferrite beads, So today I started to see how to make one just the same in every other way but fewer primary turns.

And of course, I wanted to have a reference on all the usual numbers for later comparison.

I just made the first secondary and I want to share the surprise.

(using the same transistor etc)

It takes more amperage from the circuit with 6 bifilar turns than with 11. I can only compare with a secondary of some sort, so I did with a single turn (which I have called single all along, which might be called 1 1/2 but not 2)

The rectified voltage is 1.12v and 1.08v in the 2 directions.

My plan, is to make a few secondaries and see what they will do together. Last night Ist showed us that he lit a lot of lights one from each single wound secondary all from 1 toroid.

But, this draws more amperage to do less, just because it has fewer primary bifilar turns. It may be less self inductance and therefore allow or draw more current. Who can explain this? Is this right?

I will make the rectifier friendlier for testing. It is too small and too close together, I may not do any more tests until I finish that tonight, but I thought anyone who wants to can start to replicate this.

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 28, 2009, 10:36:32 PM

@ jeanna

The voltage driving the secondary is generated by the collector coil when the transistor turns off. The greater the current before the transistor turns off, and the greater the number of turns on the collector coil, and the faster the transistor switches, the larger the voltage will be that is generated in the secondary. A few pages ago, I suggested to Mk1 that I thought he would get higher secondary voltage if he increased the JT turns from 4 to 8 on his JT coils. I do not know if he did this or what the results were. But, this is my experience.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 28, 2009, 10:55:47 PM

;D

hey guys i was just kinda wondering if i could ..... lol

well take where i hook up the leds .... and run it through my coper / steel bifillar coil core ... then hook it up to the leds what will be the result?

makes me think OTTOS TEST .... ;D

ist!

i was also thinking of droping a neo the other side of the jt winding on my garden wire core unit

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 28, 2009, 11:38:52 PM

@xee,

I may be missing something in your answer.

It was the amperage into the system that surprised me. Having fewer turns of the bifilar primary seems to have caused the amperage to be 50% higher. This is a big increase.

It was 23mA or so with the 11 turn bifilar,
and this was 33mA with 6 bifilar primary turns.

As far as getting 1.09v across the single turn secondary is concerned, I think that is in line.

Thanks for your explanation. I will study what you said some more.

EDIT:
It is very clear. thank you.

jeanna

@IST

So, could we be making our joule thiefs around a straw?

I made a big order of various ferrite toroids today. Maybe I didn't need to!?!

What are you wrapping these around for your air core, please?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Light on January 28, 2009, 11:48:23 PM

â€œBunch of thievesâ€ :)â€¦One jt powering anotherâ€¦

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 29, 2009, 12:09:41 AM

@ jeanna

I guess I misunderstood what you were saying. I was thinking that you needed to increase the current from the battery with fewer turns in order to get the same output from the secondary. That has been my experience. I am also surprised that there is such a difference in current just by reducing turns on the JT coils. At the moment I can not think of any theoretical reason for that to happen.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 29, 2009, 12:16:54 AM

@ Light

Nice photos. Thanks for posting them It looks like you have been doing a lot of experimenting.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 29, 2009, 01:13:14 AM

hooked up the last unit i made and im not sure if it makes a diff at first glance i wired it up many ways and found it does work the same as just the jt but i can use steel as out or copper or both so as i think i tryed both seperatly but not both at the same time

if you hook it up backwards it will not lite at all if you dont feed out of the tranny through it agin no action ...

but what i was thinking dont know if it will work or not right now but was to feed the steel/ copper collector wind with its own source... and see if it will make a diff the jt running on top of a coil altho now i should be able to wind secondaries off the jt with the air core i cant unless they are identical to the jt in mass i may try that too down the road ..

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 29, 2009, 02:52:21 AM

@ all
Topic = Trying not to replicate the mistakes of others.

OK here is my 2 c worth, I hope you will understand my reasons.

We are al human, and automaticly make mistakes, the JT forum is filled with posters making mistakes, (me also) and when they are discovered, the correct answer is forth coming. But, some of us need to make mistakes so when this happens, we learn better.
If someone said, if you put a 6v filament bulb on a 12v battery, it will blow the bulb, thats right, but if you want to actually see this happen, DO IT, observe what occurs, take a voltage reading, amperage current draw. See how bright it gets to the point it blows.
The bulb blows, it's done its job, time to take it apart and see how it was made etc etc, one learns more.

If a new forum member reading this wants to make a mistake, go for it, then gets the JT to work, he learnt more in the process than it working from the start. (I getting my words mixed up again)

But, there is also the person who already knows what to expect if he connects a transister up wrong, da smooooke comes out and once the smooooke comes out, it dosent work any more ha ha.

I guess what I'm saying is, it really dosent matter at all, if one wants to make a mistake or dosent want to make a mistake.
Its a personal choice, but it is better on the hippocket if no mistakes were made.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 29, 2009, 02:55:11 AM

@ Jim:

Have any of the mice made any mistakes lately? I got $10 riding on the peanut butter. Good to hear from you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 29, 2009, 03:21:46 AM

@all
Topic = Iron coils instead of using a Torid or Transformer with copper wire windings.

Hoo boy, here I go (might be a big mistake lol)

I have a theory which I have PM a couple of people about, but not had any replies.

We are trying to create a magnetic field in a torid, then trying to capture this magnetic field to do stuff with, lighting LEDS etc etc

Someone posted above, he hasn't seen anything new since the first 20 posts, ok here is something new, which relates back to NS.

Get some IRON wire that is insulated, or put some insulation on the iron wire.
Wind a coil with this insulated wire, on a toilet roll, dont use a torid or iron laminations, just make a aircoil.

Whats occurs is this, when power is applied to the coil, the iron wire itself becomes its own magnet.
As we know, as the circuit is broken, the magnetic field collapses, this induces a high voltage pulse inside the same coil which created the magnetic field.

Use a HALL EFFECT Transistor, which can sence the magnetic field and switch off the juce to the coil.

T block the pulse going back through the circuit, put a 1n4004 diode between the bat and the switch.
Using a second diode of sufficient rating, the HVP could be directed via different path, measured with an instrument, rectified, fed to a capacitor etc etc.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 29, 2009, 03:57:19 AM

@all

astable multivibrator , i think this is a 555 way start .http://delabs-circuits.com/cirdir/theory/gates/doc00019.html

@Electricme

It sound real nice keep it up!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 29, 2009, 08:27:26 AM

@ bill
Mice are loosing, I got 2 on Tuesday, off the glued down cheeze trap.

Not to be out done, the dollop of Peanut Butter is looking much smaller, patience is the key here, and da trap will strike.

I put a sign up 4 the mice to read, warning them about the trap, maybe dey not been to mouse skool?
Pass a new law, mouses must go 2 skool ha ha, noooooo then weel never get em.

Bill I up to post 70, I'm compiling a list of circuits we have all posted, Will post them all on one page when done.

@all

Spent a couple of hours unwinding the primary off my big torid, wow what a chore that was.
But I discovered something courious.
When this winding was put on, it was wound bifilar, just like the juel thief, the wires started in a clockwise direction and went all around the torid, then, they reversed all the way back to the beginning

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 29, 2009, 08:32:58 AM

hello all ..

@ jim that is verry intresting .... bout the jt winding then returning to where it started ;D

@jenna i used an old empty wire spool ;D

thease had solder on them ...

so i built and ran the steel coil jt guess i will try some steel on the outside of 1 ;D like some of the sm stuff....

do you think the steel will be electric/magnetic ... wound with the jt in an air core unit or mabe we get MAGNETIC ELECTRIC :)

ONE WAY TO FIND OUT ... 8)

yep gonna build another air core ..

got a question tho ... do we have amparage ... ??? more than consumed .... if so then ... we should try to switch some of it .....

TO GET MORE .... ;D

IST

ill post a pic of the iron wire coil ... i finished the winding and spaced it better all around the coil tryed a neo did not notice a diff ... all expairments with this coil were done with leds ONLY i never metered it ... or scoped it :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 29, 2009, 08:35:56 AM

Quote from: jeanna on January 28, 2009, 01:53:03 PM
@jesus,
Thank you again for a beautiful recap illustration.

There is a change I would like you to make, please. If I understand the drawing that you made on the different types of transistors, the side pictured with the diode symbol is the emitter. The 2N3904 being american made then is reversed from your schematic.

The emitter should be on the upper side, because it belongs on the more positive side of this circuit. The collector connects directly to the negative battery side.

(I personally have trouble with these things because I am dyslexic and have a hard time knowing if I am looking at something in mirror view or straight, so please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe it should be as I stated.)

thank you,

jeanna
...

I think the circuit is okay because the emitter on an npn transistor as the 2n3904 goes to negative. But I will change as you say just to not damage your beautiful way of experimenting. Besides the transistor does not mind if you switch the emitter and the collector connections. It will do its work anyway.

By the way, on a toroid winding, each time you pass the wire through the hole is a turn.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 29, 2009, 09:10:59 AM

@All
i wound an iron wire coil and replaced a regular 22 turn jt circuit with a variable resistor on the base of a germanium transistor and it does not work . I tried it as air core and with a ferrite rod as a core . did not work .i replaced the original 22 turn center tapped toroid and it lit . i stuck a magnet on it so you can see it is iron wire .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 29, 2009, 09:13:54 AM

If you can make the magnetic flux of the core to collapse faster than you built it up your circuit gets a little energy out of whatever collapses it. In an ignition coil of a car the primary current sets the core up very slowly. Then they open this circuit and something majical happens. The wall you just put up gets knocked down. Now you get back all the work piling up the blocks PLUS the work of knocking over the blocks. If you have ever done demolition work you will know what I mean. What force is causing that field to collapse.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 29, 2009, 09:18:15 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 28, 2009, 07:03:25 PM
@ Jeanna:

I think you just described the Darlington transistor arrangement. Others can correct me if I am wrong but it sounds like that is what you are suggesting to hook up. If only you thought of this 30 years earlier, it could have been named the Jeanna Transistor. What I always wondered about the Darlington, not the ones you buy but the ones you make from 2 transistors, is why could one not make 3,4 or five transistors hooked together like this?

This just shows that you have good thinking skills Jeanna. Good job.

Darlington transistor
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Circuit diagram of Darlington configuration

In electronics, the Darlington transistor (often called a Darlington pair) is a semiconductor device which combines two bipolar transistors in a single device so that the current amplified by the first is amplified further by the second[1]. This configuration gives a high current gain (written Î², hfe, or hFE) and can take less space than two separate transistors because the two transistors can use a shared collector. Integrated circuit packages are available, but it is still common also to use two separate transistors.

The Darlington configuration was invented by Bell Laboratories engineer Sidney Darlington in 1953. He patented the idea of having two or three transistors on a single chip (and sharing a single collector), but not that of an arbitrary number (which might have covered all modern integrated circuits)[2].

A similar configuration but with transistors of opposite type (NPN and PNP) is the Sziklai pair, which sometimes called the "complementary Darlington."

Bill

@Bill
I had posted this same question a few pages back. I have used two separate 2n3904's in a Darlington config and have used a TIP-??? Darlington. The TIP gave me greater output than the separate transistors. Apparently I don't know how to make the 2n3904 produce an amplifying effect. Can anyone tell me how to do that?
I was thinking that 3 or more would produce more, but I'm not so sure since the 2-way wouldn't produce as much as the TIP.

@All
I was thinking(dangerous, I know) about using the pickup coil to run another JT, sort of. I was thinking about having a JT setup without the toroid; just the resistor, transistor, and LED. Then taking one wire from my pickup coil and hooking it to the collector spot, where one wire from the toroid would go, and hook the other wire from the pickup coil to the resistor. Would it work? Would it not work? Or would I fry some parts doing that? I just thought about giving the juice from the pickup coil a little "guidance."

Also, could I use the pickup coil as my AC power source for that "Tesla 1-wire trick" I posted last time? I don't want to mess with dangerous voltage since I don't know what I'm doing, but I'd like it to have enough juice to work if it will work.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 29, 2009, 10:15:38 AM

@all
here is an experiment i am doing using a very large toroid wound 4 20 t = 80 turns . battery is .90 volts it was drawing 11ma lighting all 4 leds . i put a capacitor across the pot i am using to adjust the Bias to base of germanium transistor and the current dropped to less than 3 ma doing the same job of lighting all 4 leds bright So now i have 4 leds running at 2.85 ma with a dead battery .just by adding a capacitor in this circuit .I can adjust the current draw to 1 ma and all 4 leds are lit approx 20 % bright . Very Interesting . I don't know of anyone who has a circuit that can light 4 white leds bright at less than 3 ma ???

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 29, 2009, 10:20:38 AM

next new coil

8)

i got soooo many coils i lost count ;D

ist!

what if .... we made 2 in 1 8)

and we made a NPN JT as we have been doing ..... on the ver and a PNP on the hoz.. and they were wound to repell 1 another ;)

TURBINE WHAT ...... 8) generator ?

how about this the first jt powers the second in this unit ... could use a bit of help ... guys... lol

hey if we did use 2 npn jt's could we not wind an alum pick up coil to pull inverted power from it ?? :)

i just happin to have some real thick alum wire ...

kinda like first jt gets powered ... insted of the leds put output to steel wire ... then to led ... check to see that it works ... then to cap ... ;D

put a higher voltage cap there ... then use a 3055 off the bigger cap to power the next one wich would be the hor jt do the exact same thing with it but this time take the out from the steel wire from the inside ... feed it to the alum wire on the outside then to your load .. :)

what ya think ......

should i try it ??

i mean i have already built it ... except the alum it only takes a min but the 3055 curcuit i could use a hand with i dont have many left ... ive been blowing them a bit latley ... could just be a few bad ones tho ... im running low on em tho ...

back to work ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 29, 2009, 10:31:34 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 28, 2009, 09:48:46 PM
I bought these from a local company called "Airgas". They are also national and on the internet. I paid $20.00 for my carbon rod which is 1"OD x 18" long. Or, was. I have since cut it into 2 pieces 9" long. let me know if you can't find them. there may be cheaper places but last year I searched for a long time and this was the best bang for the buck. Others wanted $100.00 for 1/2" OD x 6" long. It pays to shop around. these, to my understanding, are used in the welding industry as cut-off rods. They may not be used as much as in the past which is why I had to order mine. I have also seen carbon welding rods which are copper clad. These cost more and I think you would have to remove the copper which would be a waste. PM me if you need a part number or website. I don't have it handy or I would post it. I can find it if you need it. Actually, I think I looked it up for Timmy so maybe he can post it? Carbon is basically pretty cheap so, do not pay too much here.

Bill

@Gadget
I'll try to remember to post the info in exactly two hours. It's exactly 9:30 and the IT dept won't let me check my gmail until 11:30. The wife was going to get me one for xmas but their online ordering was not working at the time and we ended up using the money for something else, so I still don't have it. But, she tried to order it and sent me screenshots, so I'll post the info in little while.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 29, 2009, 10:44:09 AM

@Timmy
thanks for the reply about those rods . If you get let me know . I found some 1/2 inch 1 foot long copper coated gouging rods at the local welding shop for 50 cent each . I pealed the copper off and left one inch on the top to solder wires on . I think they will do fine .. I found this place on the internet that sells packs of 100 for less than 30 bucks !you can peal the copper sheathing off .http://www.atlweldingsupply.com/Gouging-Rods_c_302-1.html

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Michelinho on January 29, 2009, 10:51:12 AM

Hi all,

I don't know if it can be of any help but here's what I was told: instead of making 300 turns on a toroid, just wind 10 turns on one toroid and 30 turns on a second toroid without breaking the loop. If that works, it would be perfect for the JT.

Take care,

Michel

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 29, 2009, 10:51:18 AM

Quote from: Light on January 28, 2009, 11:48:23 PM
â€œBunch of thievesâ€ :)â€¦One jt powering anotherâ€¦

@Light
Can you post how you hooked the JT's up for one to power the other?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 29, 2009, 10:55:18 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 29, 2009, 10:20:38 AM
next new coil

8)

i got soooo many coils i lost count ;D

ist!

what if .... we made 2 in 1 8)

and we made a NPN JT as we have been doing ..... on the ver and a PNP on the hoz.. and they were wound to repell 1 another ;)

TURBINE WHAT ...... 8) generator ?

how about this the first jt powers the second in this unit ... could use a bit of help ... guys... lol

hey if we did use 2 npn jt's could we not wind an alum pick up coil to pull inverted power from it ?? :)

i just happin to have some real thick alum wire ...

kinda like first jt gets powered ... insted of the leds put output to steel wire ... then to led ... check to see that it works ... then to cap ... ;D

put a higher voltage cap there ... then use a 3055 off the bigger cap to power the next one wich would be the hor jt do the exact same thing with it but this time take the out from the steel wire from the inside ... feed it to the alum wire on the outside then to your load .. :)

what ya think ......

should i try it ??

i mean i have already built it ... except the alum it only takes a min but the 3055 curcuit i could use a hand with i dont have many left ... ive been blowing them a bit latley ... could just be a few bad ones tho ... im running low on em tho ...

back to work ...

T gonna take some current for that to do anything i think William .But it Might work . I would try it with a scrap tranny first .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Thaelin on January 29, 2009, 11:09:05 AM

@ Pirate:

Since no one else has hit on it yet, I would like to be the one to congratulate you
on hitting 200 pages of post. Most never get near this.

BRAVO MY GOOD MAN

Much learned and had a lot of fun reading. I now have a way to passive light my
areas. I only have to turn on a light when I need to work on the bench or such.

thaelin

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 29, 2009, 11:13:24 AM

@Bill

Congrats on 200 pages! I would like to thank everyone who has helped me out since I've been on here.
Here's to 200 more!

Cheers!

Quote from: Thaelin on January 29, 2009, 11:09:05 AM
@ Pirate:

Since no one else has hit on it yet, I would like to be the one to congratulate you
on hitting 200 pages of post. Most never get near this.

BRAVO MY GOOD MAN

Much learned and had a lot of fun reading. I now have a way to passive light my
areas. I only have to turn on a light when I need to work on the bench or such.

thaelin

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 29, 2009, 11:23:26 AM

Quote from: sparks on January 29, 2009, 09:13:54 AM
If you can make the magnetic flux of the core to collapse faster than you built it up your circuit gets a little energy out of whatever collapses it. In an ignition coil of a car the primary current sets the core up very slowly. Then they open this circuit and something majical happens. The wall you just put up gets knocked down. Now you get back all the work piling up the blocks PLUS the work of knocking over the blocks. If you have ever done demolition work you will know what I mean. What force is causing that field to collapse.

. bemf .But why dont an iron wire work for a jt ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 29, 2009, 11:34:00 AM

;D

200 pages in just a few months .... wow .....

lol

here is this coil alum added ... 8)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 29, 2009, 11:42:57 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on January 29, 2009, 11:23:26 AM
. bemf .But why dont an iron wire work for a jt ?

i dont think it is BEMF ....

it is magic .... lol i mean magnetics ... or is that electrics ... ;D

it is the the result of PUSHING AGINST NATURE ... SHE PUSHES BACK ... USE IT 8)

the univirse is in a ballance state ... distrub it....... it will adjust .... take the distrubance away ... she will restore ballance ... but if you afixed your bulb .... as part of the ballance ... it will operate ... 8)

answer WE ALREADY DO THIS .....IN THE JT!!!!!

ist! ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on January 29, 2009, 12:34:55 PM

Here is a video of a small joule thief with a secondary coil winding.
The second coil puts out about 8 volts and can fill a large 4400 mfd capacitor to over 75v in about 10 minutes.

It will allso charge 10AA rechargable all at once just on the second coil.

This is running off a rechargable 1.2v AA battery that has 1.28v in it.
It took about 10 minutes to recharge 10 AA batterys from 8.9v to 13v.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1Z2wUSu5Aw

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 29, 2009, 12:55:24 PM

@ nievesolive

Can you put the EBC letters on the transistor in jenna's circuit diagram, for those who do not understand the symbol? And maybe put a plus sign on the battery?

@ jenna

The collector usually goes to the positive end of the battery and the emitter to the negative for NPN transistors. Are you sure you have the emitter going to the positive end of battery?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 29, 2009, 01:41:16 PM

@ timmy1729

This is how to hook up the transistors for a Darlington Joule Thief. Note that the base resistor will have to be larger since the Darlington pair has a larger gain than a single transistor. I do not know what value will work, I have just put 10K to show it needs to be greater than 1K (it may need to be as high as 100K). Also the circuit will stop working at a higher battery voltage (about 1 volt instead of 1/2 volt) because the voltage needs to be high enough to turn on two transistors junctions.

EDIT: I do not think there is any performance advantage produced by using a Darlington transistor. But, maybe your experiments will prove otherwise.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 29, 2009, 01:44:16 PM

Quote from: slayer007 on January 29, 2009, 12:34:55 PM
Here is a video of a small joule thief with a secondary coil winding.
The second coil puts out about 8 volts and can fill a large 4400 mfd capacitor to over 75v in about 10 minutes.

It will allso charge 10AA rechargable all at once just on the second coil.

This is running off a rechargable 1.2v AA battery that has 1.28v in it.
It took about 10 minutes to recharge 10 AA batterys from 8.9v to 13v.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1Z2wUSu5Aw

well i had 1 more yoke but now used...

i built something similar to your coil... slayer007

yes already ... i used a 2 part yoke 1st part jt 45 turns 22ga second half 22ga single wire 200 turns ....

gonna hook it up to see what it will do ... 8)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 29, 2009, 02:02:06 PM

@All

http://www.airgas.com/browse/product.aspx?Msg=RecID&recIds=379618 (http://www.airgas.com/browse/product.aspx?Msg=RecID&recIds=379618)

This is the carbon rod that Bill has and that I am getting.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 29, 2009, 02:18:10 PM

Quote from: xee2 on January 29, 2009, 12:55:24 PM
@ nievesolive

Can you put the EBC letters on the transistor in jenna's circuit diagram, for those who do not understand the symbol? And maybe put a plus sign on the battery?

@ jenna

The collector usually goes to the positive end of the battery and the emitter to the negative for NPN transistors. Are you sure you have the emitter going to the positive end of battery?

I included the EBC letters and your graphic too.
I have recieved PMs stating that the flipped transistor does not work.
I have used it flipped on other circuits and it have worked. But I never have used it on a joule thief.
It just pass a voltage through it when it is triggered, it does not know what polarity is letting pass through.

Jesus

Edit:

Quote from: jeanna on January 29, 2009, 07:28:58 PM
My apologies to everyone,

I appear to be hopelessly confused about the transistor symbols. I don't know if I will ever be able to clear it up.

Anyway, Jesus, your first drawing was correct.

The emitter goes to the neg of the battery, and the symbol is as you had it. Of course, you were right.

(In a little explanation, which none of you need, of course, it all started after the second lesson 5 years ago. I was fine with following electrons around a circuit, but, all of a sudden when the explanation started with transistors, the current was changed to conventional current and I was now supposed to follow the protons going around the circuit and the symbols and their wonderful arrow pointing the way had to be reversed and Oh my goodness.... )

So, again I apologize.

The Emitter goes to the negative!! whatever that looks like!

jeanna

Yes, jesus, you may delete the wrong drawing.

The lady that made the experiments asks to delete the wrong drawing. But I will leave it here just in case somebody can get something out of it. If for any reason something fails on your experiment, You have been warned that she wanted it deleted.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: flathunter on January 29, 2009, 02:28:05 PM

Great to see everyone is busy busy busy!

Heres a picture of my joule thief lighting ten LEDs. I've used an old AA battery, and instead of a toroid there was an iron bead or cylinder which i found in the back of an old monitor (3cm long). its the standard evilmadscientist version (no secondary coil.) The primary is 9 turns of bifilar wire (from a mobile phone charger). The transistor is everyones favourite, the 2N 3904.
The 10 LEDs are wired in parallel to the emitter and collector (i think :)))))....don't know how many more its capable of yet - need to get some more LEDs and wire.

My multimetre reads 0.89 on the last LED, and 1.29 on the AA battery. I'm assuming this is in Milliamps??!!?? Forgive my ignorance! The voltage is about 1.3 V throught the circuit.

Now, I want big lights like I saw pirate playing with..... :o :o :o
Time for some tinkering...

Cheers for the ideas everyone!

PS I'm a wally with computers - how do i get my photos into a smaller file?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 29, 2009, 02:57:02 PM

@ flathunter

IrfanView is a free program that has a resize function. .

http://www.irfanview.com/

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jonnydavro on January 29, 2009, 03:18:29 PM

Hi.I have been playing around with the joule thief circuit and i am amazed at what i can run with it.Reed switch motors, Dc motors all work great so i thought i would try it with my Bedini Motor.I used my 4 rotor bedini as the test bed as if i got it going i wanted to see if it could run a slave coil as well anyway i am pleased to report that it can.
It spins really fast on 1.5v and can light the neon.
It spins even faster with the slave coil connected as both coils are pulsing the one rotor using 2.4volts.I will buy some new batteries and see if the slave will run on 1.5v.It will also spin two rotors off the one coil.
I have attached some pictures and may make a vid. ;D
Regards jonnydavro

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 29, 2009, 03:28:14 PM

@all

In my test it seems the 2n3904 works with either emitter collector going to the negative battery lead! That is why i say a long time ago that there is more than one way to get the led to light, but that bring us to the next level, we need to try a 2n2222 transistor now!

If someone has one try it one the jt with the collector to the - battery and emitter to the coil, that way its in the negistor(2n2222 in reverse) mode and don't respect the law(ohms), it should be helpful in getting the most of the negative push back. Could be real good for bemf , we will need to implement a simple system to get the back emf and pickup coil power.The 2n3055 could be one also, not sure but bedini likes it , i have to look how he connects it?)

In the feed back , the battery seems to buffer the high voltage and reduce the hv feedback, I am just worried some energy is lost, I wonder if a cap in series with the battery, could help.

@ flathunter michelinho thaelin

Welcome !

@pirate

It dose go so fast , 200 already its exponential input should should guide us !

@slayer007

Great work ! What transistor do you use ?

Mark

Edit : @jonnydavro

Great to see you again , great work!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on January 29, 2009, 04:12:24 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 29, 2009, 03:28:14 PM
@all

In my test it seems the 2n3904 works with either emitter collector going to the negative battery lead! That is why i say a long time ago that there is more than one way to get the led to light, but that bring us to the next level, we need to try a 2n2222 transistor now!

If someone has one try it one the jt with the collector to the - battery and emitter to the coil, that way its in the negistor(2n2222 in reverse) mode and don't respect the law(ohms), it should be helpful in getting the most of the negative push back. Could be real good for bemf , we will need to implement a simple system to get the back emf and pickup coil power.The 2n3055 could be one also, not sure but bedini likes it , i have to look how he connects it?)

In the feed back , the battery seems to buffer the high voltage and reduce the hv feedback, I am just worried some energy is lost, I wonder if a cap in series with the battery, could help.

@ flathunter michelinho thaelin

Welcome !

@pirate

It dose go so fast , 200 already its exponential input should should guide us !

@slayer007

Great work ! What transistor do you use ?

Mark

Edit : @jonnydavro

Great to see you again , great work!

Hello Mark

It's a 2n3055 transistor

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 29, 2009, 04:43:25 PM

000ooo weeeeee ;D

i had 499 vdc out from the use of a magnet on this unit strange .... 8)

humm

i will take a pic ..

weird stuff here.......

so weird that im makeing a video ;D

ist

oh hey lol i forgot to tell you i turn it on with a magnet .... 8) and off and i take the magnet away agin lol ;D

i also add ...... it works when it wants to ..... errrr can be a pain in the a$$ i warned you :P lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 29, 2009, 05:15:23 PM

@ ist

Wow :o 499 volts. Can you provide more details of what you did?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 29, 2009, 05:29:05 PM

On the jule thief unmessed with how high does the cap voltage charge to?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 29, 2009, 05:30:40 PM

im still trying to do it agin i had it down pat than it i move the magnets i was useing 2 of them but after it was going i could take the 1 away ..

out put did not drop ...

strange ...

ist

the ear pericing squeel went silent as the voltage instantly rose ..... :)

im guessing it went into a high speed rotation ....

weird if you hook anything to it it kills the effect .. humm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 29, 2009, 05:50:52 PM

Yikes! I gotta catch up!

Jim, There is a website called treehugger, I think, where the good folks there used a hamster wheel connected to an induction generator to run the lights for the hamster room. ;D pretty funny. Maybe your mice in a cage could be put to useful work? ;D

@jesus, Thank you for making the change and yes, it was a good idea to mark the ends. It is most likely because I am a noob at these things... I cannot find it today, but yesterday I found a site that explained that the voltage mattered more on the collector? was it? I wish I could find that reference today, but see, it makes me think it is the reason our voltage spikes from the toroid are able to do what we are finding. I think in that reference he said the E was affected by current, and the C by voltage - but I may need to edit this if I am wrong.

So, since there is a reason to believe there may be a difference, thanks for posting it as I have actually put it together.

@xee, I have it connected so the E is going to the neg- of the battery.

@MK1, I have a 2N2222 so I will be trying this with my breadboard circuits, and I will be back about it.

Quote from: gadgetmall on January 29, 2009, 10:15:38 AM
@all
here is an experiment i am doing using a very large toroid wound 4 20 t = 80 turns . battery is .90 volts it was drawing 11ma lighting all 4 leds . i put a capacitor across the pot i am using to adjust the Bias to base of germanium transistor and the current dropped to less than 3 ma doing the same job of lighting all 4 leds bright So now i have 4 leds running at 2.85 ma with a dead battery .just by adding a capacitor in this circuit .I can adjust the current draw to 1 ma and all 4 leds are lit approx 20 % bright . Very Interesting . I don't know of anyone who has a circuit that can light 4 white leds bright at less than 3 ma ???

Well, if you are using the secondary to make the lights, I can. I had 30 lights where the total was 23mA so divided by 30 that is 0.76mA each. or 766uA each.

So, gadgetmail, please give a couple of details, how are they wired to be turned on? If they are a part of the original jt circuit, this is a really big difference and you are putting us another big step forward!!!! yeay!

thanks,

jeanna

But I think

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 29, 2009, 07:28:58 PM

My apologies to everyone,

I appear to be hopelessly confused about the transistor symbols. I don't know if I will ever be able to clear it up.

Anyway, Jesus, your first drawing was correct.

The emitter goes to the neg of the battery, and the symbol is as you had it. Of course, you were right.

(In a little explanation, which none of you need, of course, it all started after the second lesson 5 years ago. I was fine with following electrons around a circuit, but, all of a sudden when the explanation started with transistors, the current was changed to conventional current and I was now supposed to follow the protons going around the circuit and the symbols and their wonderful arrow pointing the way had to be reversed and Oh my goodness.... )

So, again I apologize.

The Emitter goes to the negative!! whatever that looks like!

jeanna

Yes, jesus, you may delete the wrong drawing.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 29, 2009, 07:47:21 PM

NPN Not Pointing iN

PNP Pointing iN Proudly

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 29, 2009, 07:48:27 PM

@MK1

I just exchanged the 2222 that I have for the 3904 I have been using in my breadboard experiments. I may not matter, but just to be clear, the toroid in this is the half wound one with the 1 1/2 turn secondary.

The 2222 draws .44A from the same exact set up where the 3904 draws only 0.33A
So, the lights look about the same brightness, but the amp draw is higher with the 2222.

=======
May I get an explanation please?
About counting the turns. If I start at the outside of the toroid and feed both ends through the middle and end where I started, is that 2 turns? It seems one turn to me one complete turn. There are however 2 strands of wire going through the center to get there.
Ist used a way to close the wire by twisting it onto itself and so close it. Is that one turn?

Thank you,

jeanna

@MrMag ;D thanks. I will see if that helps. thanks for trying.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on January 29, 2009, 08:11:58 PM

for turn reference see MK1 post.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg153563#msg153563

a U shape count as 1, even if you make it a twisted paires outside the toroid.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on January 29, 2009, 08:34:21 PM

I have been very busy lately

I was trying to read this thread but havn't had any time to read the older posts
I have gotten to page 40 ....... been there all week

I picked up a couple Mosfets at radioshack when I was near there.

Has anyone here tried a mosfet joule thief?

the mosfets I got are IRF510 they are only 60 volt ...... I was looking for a higher voltage .....but that is all that they had .

I would appreciate a link or 2 about Mosfest and joulethiefs if possible
Not trying to avoid doing my homework .... just trying to streamline it a little so I might actually have time to build something this weekend .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: amigo on January 29, 2009, 08:59:43 PM

@Pirate88179

This thread is moving faster again and it's difficult to reply to posts from six or more pages ago... :)

I'm sorry if my post sounded like a downer, as I explained to gadgetmall it was not my intention. I was of the opinion that the direction of this thread has lost its coherence but I realize now that everyone, including yourself, likes to get their hands dirty so to speak, and just dive into it, trying various things.

Therefore I will take the sidelines and observe instead of partaking. Just because I don't agree with something does not mean it wouldn't be fun for others to do. :)

Thanks.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 29, 2009, 09:00:55 PM

Quote from: jeanna on January 29, 2009, 07:28:58 PM
My apologies to everyone,

I appear to be hopelessly confused about the transistor symbols. I don't know if I will ever be able to clear it up.

Anyway, Jesus, your first drawing was correct.

The emitter goes to the neg of the battery, and the symbol is as you had it. Of course, you were right.

(In a little explanation, which none of you need, of course, it all started after the second lesson 5 years ago. I was fine with following electrons around a circuit, but, all of a sudden when the explanation started with transistors, the current was changed to conventional current and I was now supposed to follow the protons going around the circuit and the symbols and their wonderful arrow pointing the way had to be reversed and Oh my goodness.... )

So, again I apologize.

The Emitter goes to the negative!! whatever that looks like!

jeanna

Yes, jesus, you may delete the wrong drawing.

Lady @jeanna

I left the drawing posted with a warning that if they do something wrong is not your fault, because you asked me to delete it. Because there is no harm to the circuit by inverting the collector and the emitter if the connection is to the negative. The transistor will just let the electricity pass when is triggered by the positive input to the base.
I have used a NPN transistor to manage the positive electricity and it has worked perfectly. What it does not do is to get triggered by a negative signal to the base.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 29, 2009, 09:03:54 PM

Quote from: jeanna on January 29, 2009, 05:50:52 PM
Yikes! I gotta catch up!

Jim, There is a website called treehugger, I think, where the good folks there used a hamster wheel connected to an induction generator to run the lights for the hamster room. ;D pretty funny. Maybe your mice in a cage could be put to useful work? ;D

@jesus, Thank you for making the change and yes, it was a good idea to mark the ends. It is most likely because I am a noob at these things... I cannot find it today, but yesterday I found a site that explained that the voltage mattered more on the collector? was it? I wish I could find that reference today, but see, it makes me think it is the reason our voltage spikes from the toroid are able to do what we are finding. I think in that reference he said the E was affected by current, and the C by voltage - but I may need to edit this if I am wrong.

So, since there is a reason to believe there may be a difference, thanks for posting it as I have actually put it together.

@xee, I have it connected so the E is going to the neg- of the battery.

@MK1, I have a 2N2222 so I will be trying this with my breadboard circuits, and I will be back about it.

Well, if you are using the secondary to make the lights, I can. I had 30 lights where the total was 23mA so divided by 30 that is 0.76mA each. or 766uA each.

So, gadgetmail, please give a couple of details, how are they wired to be turned on? If they are a part of the original jt circuit, this is a really big difference and you are putting us another big step forward!!!! yeay!

thanks,

jeanna

But I think

OK I measured the total ma draw in series with the battery . 2.85ma divide by 4 = 0.71 ma per led . I used 4 windings of 20 all in series center tapped at 40 total 80 turns normal JT no secondary .. It is a Large Green Toroid . and yea i believe from what i have read that this is a step forward . it is still going . i wont touch it until it is dead but that could be a very long time as the voltage is still .90 full bright and 2.84 now . i guess its a little cold in here so the components are just a bit different . WOW . 90 Still .The only mod to the normal jt circuit that made it draw less and put out more was the little non polarized cap marked 680 ,across the variable resistor . ok the variable resistor has three legs . i use wiper and on end for adjustments and put the cap across the resistor part the two outside legs . Does this make sense ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on January 29, 2009, 09:13:21 PM

@resonanceman

you could try it as a replacement for the 3904 but i don't think it will start the jt.
IRF510 gate threshold is 2 volts min, 4 volts max.

you might like to try with xee2's Darlington scematic
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg153736#msg153736

just make sure the IRF510 gate is not feed more then 4 volts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 29, 2009, 09:53:39 PM

@jesus,
That is a fine solution. Thank you.

Quote from: gadgetmall on January 29, 2009, 09:03:54 PM
center tapped at 40 total 80 turns normal JT no secondary
...
green
.....
The only mod to the normal jt circuit that made it draw less and put out more was the little non polarized cap marked 680 ,across the variable resistor . ok the variable resistor has three legs . i use wiper and on end for adjustments and put the cap across the resistor part the two outside legs . Does this make sense ?

I have to try this. I was never able to get 4 lights on my single jt without the secondary... I think, maybe I never tried. I will see in parallel I doubt it is possible in series, so you do have more in a couple of places, I think... wow!

I think you have wound many more turns as well. But you say the only thing that made a difference is the cap

oh boy, this is extra cool because of something I think N Stubblefield did. ...

So, this cap sounds like a 68picofarad cap ? 680 I think that is 68 with no zeros and measured in picos. Is that right?

excellent... stepping forward.

About the resistor, if you measure with your dmm set to ohms, one the base of the transistor and on the other place where it connects to the battery, you should be able to read exactly what the resistance is.

I am curious, what is it?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 29, 2009, 09:55:37 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on January 29, 2009, 09:00:55 PM
Lady @jeanna

I left the drawing posted with a warning that if they do something wrong is not your fault, because you asked me to delete it. Because there is no harm to the circuit by inverting the collector and the emitter if the connection is to the negative. The transistor will just let the electricity pass when is triggered by the positive input to the base.
I have used a NPN transistor to manage the positive electricity and it has worked perfectly. What it does not do is to get triggered by a negative signal to the base.

Jesus

so should it be called npn and ppp lol

no way you could draw it up eh? useing to npn trannys to switch .. both??

would be a great help ;D

ist

now were cappin the gap lol 8)

the old cut the input way back trick :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 29, 2009, 09:58:37 PM

@ jeanna

Don't feel bad about the emitter - collector confusion. Electronics is very confusing. My vision is not very good and I always need to look very carefully at the transistor to see which lead is which. On top of that, not all transistors have the same lead arrangement so it is always necessary to check the data sheet. As for current flow. Everyone teaches it wrong because Ben Franklin decided that electricity was positive charges flowing through the wires whereas it is really negative charges (electrons). But since no one wanted to correct the mistake we still consider current to be the flow of positive charges. Even though everyone knows that the positive charges in a wire do not move. This is so confusing and stupid, but that is the way it is and there is not much that can be done except try to understand what is going on.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 29, 2009, 10:16:37 PM

@All
Here is My Schematic of post 1996 on page 200 of the Jt drawing .71 ma per led running 4 white Leds total current Draw Is 2.85 adjustable down to 1 ma for 4 leds .. I like it . Hope Someone replicates it . I posed before i read your post Jeanna . you might be right on the 68 pico i am not sure either . it is marked 680 ??? One more thing i forgot to mention is the cap across the battery . I completely forgot it and i don't know if it will make a difference or not . i guess i will try it with out the cap across the battery and see if it does anything and report back !!

@Jesus i bet you could clean up that ugly schematic of mine :) your things are on the way btw ..Edited AGAIN : i corrected the schemitic . it is now correct Symbols and polarity My Transistor is pnp

@Xee . Incorrect . read My post 1996 .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 29, 2009, 10:31:44 PM

@ gadgetmall

I would suspect that the 680 capacitor C1 is not making any difference in the performance of the circuit. You might try removing it and see if there is any change. Your good performance probably comes from the large number of turns you are using.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 29, 2009, 10:52:52 PM

@Xee2
No if you read My post you would have seen that the current was reduce drastically by adding the 680 cap . . No one has Done this on a normal Jt circuit to my knowledge . Every Circuit for a Jt on the internet is pulling at least 14ma with 1 led . Jeanna has a Secondary Mod that is As Close .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 29, 2009, 10:52:56 PM

@all

MIT professor http://www.disclose.tv/viewvideo/17024/MIT_Professor_on_Anti_Gravity_Technology/ about a solenoid on a torus.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 29, 2009, 10:56:15 PM

a question if i may lol ;D

lets ask what a cap across the gap will do lol

on the input side... when the feild colapses what will it do first .... FILL THE CAP ?!?!?!?!?!?!

LOL

lets recap when you break the flow it returns first to where you broke it .. hence where we are taping it so

on the input side... cap it where we put the led to cut way back on inputted engery ...

next you need a place to pull out from .... a secondary ... hummm :)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 29, 2009, 11:06:51 PM

@ gadgetmall

Thanks for the correction. I'm sorry I didn't read better. Experiment always trumps theory. I would think the low current is because of the 20K resistor.

EDIT: Did you change the resistor values on the diagram? With a 20K pot the capacitor can have an effect It seems to me that originally the resistor was 20K.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 29, 2009, 11:06:53 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on January 29, 2009, 09:03:54 PM
OK I measured the total ma draw in series with the battery . 2.85ma divide by 4 = 0.71 ma per led . I used 4 windings of 20 all in series center tapped at 40 total 80 turns normal JT no secondary .. It is a Large Green Toroid . and yea i believe from what i have read that this is a step forward . it is still going . i wont touch it until it is dead but that could be a very long time as the voltage is still .90 full bright and 2.84 now . i guess its a little cold in here so the components are just a bit different . WOW . 90 Still .The only mod to the normal jt circuit that made it draw less and put out more was the little non polarized cap marked 680 ,across the variable resistor . ok the variable resistor has three legs . i use wiper and on end for adjustments and put the cap across the resistor part the two outside legs . Does this make sense ?

I have just reread in my electronics books about this. Three legs is not a variable resistor, it is a potentiometer. As you can see on my latest video from a few days ago, I too used a pot as a VR. This is done, according to my books, by using the wiper and one of the other legs. If you use one, the resistance goes up as you turn CCW. If you use the other leg, the resistance goes down as you turn CCW. (and visa versa) Variable resistors have only 2 legs but Radio Shack did not have any so I used a pot. If I am incorrect about this, please, someone let me know. This is what my books say however.

@ All:

Thanks to everyone involved here on reaching the 200 page mark!!!!!!! Over 2,000 posts and we are still going. I still have to go back and catch up from a few pages back. My old cat (15 years) is very sick and I have been working with the vet and taking care of her most of the day. This is indeed a landmark and I appreciate that it was noticed by those that posted about it. Once again, to all of the experimenters and posters.......a real big THANK YOU. You all are great!!

Bil

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 29, 2009, 11:17:24 PM

repost

@Bill,
I am sorry to hear about your cat. Take care of her.

@Gadgetmail and All,
I just plunked a cap .1uf into the place you did,(I think). The lights went way dim. Since I have used all my whites for the array, I am using yellows. In fact it may be easier to tell since they lose brightness more visibly than the whites.

I also rigged up a way to check rectified voltage a little easier and more reliably. It also went down a lot with the cap. one on the um Collector and the other at the far end of the 820R resistor.

I do think it must be the size and 4o times bifilar that makes it so good, but we'll see. Anyway the cap hurt the production on the secondaries of my jt.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 29, 2009, 11:36:44 PM

@mk1

Force felt at afar effect. Tempic field response.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 29, 2009, 11:42:31 PM

@all
i edited My schemitic Again so it is now correct with a PNP transistor . Sheesss ! I just canot get used to drawing circuits and i need to take my time .
@ Jeanna
My circuit is now correct . I will try tomorrow and see if i can actually wind a secondary around My coil and see what it does to the input current but i think what will happen is it will detune and current will probably got up again . we will see..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 29, 2009, 11:47:35 PM

i have noticed similar things with the jt why ?

well i bet the cap is not matched for the jt as well the jt is a verry short wire ... hence low selfinductance ... so why is it called HEMF.....

and what causes HEMF a ballanced winding .... like my mot unit ..... hi and low ... what we are playing with currently

in the jt could be considered inductive discharge .. or flyback ... only part of it ... we need high selfinductance windings ... too
to devolop a big kick with the ability to charge the cap ... .. on the input side FULL WITH EVERY PULSE..

so then you only PAY FOR THE FIRST CHARGE.... OF THE CAP cuz what is returned is always MORE and if you get it right it will fill the cap everytime ... hence input drops off.... it then self sustaines ...

but now you need a bigg enough colapse to power your secondaries as well as charge the cap .......

leaveing it there ;D

ist!

unless ofcourse .... all is in tune ballance and you got some rytmithic interchange going on ..... lol

so that brings up resosnance ... lol

well lets ask why is there even resosnance ... ;D 8) cuz your pushing and so is she 8)

what push and push that dont seam right ..... must be 2 hidden pulls .... too ;)

humm sine ...

has anyone tryed garden wire as the resestor and the second wind.... well im a do it ... 8)

right now .... 1 garden wire and 1 copper wire jt see where this goes

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 29, 2009, 11:53:08 PM

@ pirate
A variable resistor is a pot . for instance a 20k pot is 20 k across and we use the wiper to varie the resistance from 20k to 0 . right ?. I have been in the tv radio business for a long time and a ham operator for 20 years and i can't say that i ever saw a two legged variable resistor unless its a thermistor .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Light on January 30, 2009, 12:27:13 AM

â€œThanks for posting them It looks like you have been doing a lot of experimenting.
- Yes, to make sure thereâ€™s nothing goes beyond school physicsâ€¦

"Can you post how you hooked the JT's up for one to power the other?
- Just make two (or 3 or 5) and connect each following instead of LEDs.

Nothing happens here till we get amperage...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 30, 2009, 12:47:23 AM

funny thing ....

i wound up my next unit copper and garden wire jt and hooked it up b4 any parts and i took resistance readings .... and my coper wind reads .6 ohm and my steel wire ... dubble it exactly .... 1.2 ohm ... just thought i would mention it ...

ist!

ill post a pic later when i get it working properly

well finished it off too and well by the look of the leds it also works .. a magnet do not effect this unit as i thought it would agin i only used the leds to check the out put of it ...

i did not notice any squeel this time .... hummmm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 30, 2009, 02:28:12 AM

@ gadgetmall

I think your idea of adding the base capacitor was brilliant. It seems like it will speed up the turn-off time of the transistor which will in turn increase the output voltage. However, it also looks like it will stop the circuit from oscillating if the capacitance gets too large. What the best value is I do not know, but I would guess something like 50 pF to 100 pF.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 30, 2009, 04:34:34 AM

@ gadgetmall
Nice find about the gouging carbon rods, its excellent leaving the last bit of copper on top of the rods to solder too.

About your iron wire coil in post 200, Perhapse if you might try this one instead, make a air coil on a toilet roll, at least 200 turns, put insulation tape around it to keep it together.

Then put the measuring instrument on it, press the button (to create the magnetic field, then release the button, the magnetic field collapses, creating the pulse of energy.
You should feel a pulse at TP

If you don't feel a pulse, put more turns on the coil, a oscillope should show the pulse, no matter how small it is.

If you get a pulse, put diode at TP position, then feed this to a cap to charge it up.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 30, 2009, 06:14:07 AM

@ amego,
Replying to your post on P203, thats right, we are all with the JT, but we are all doing it just a bit different, we went off a bit with disposable cameras, but this tought us all about capacitors, but it lead us back to the JT with different ideas again.
I posted about my mouse probs, this livened up the JT forum, and I got a ribbing, at least it was a lot of fun also. :)

We got posts of huge coils powering disks with magnets on board, leds on christmas trees, 400 powered by just 1 x 1.5v cell, this is awsom stuff. Just imagine, one person on this forum has been powering his house, lighting his rooms up with just 1 x 1.5v cell, wow, and this forum without doubt must be jato powered it is galloping along so fast, I'll need to ask everyone to slow down, NO put it in high gear everyone, lets have FUN FUN FUN. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

@ bill,
sorry, you may have lost your $10 bet, ;D all the peanut burrer has been "stolen" by a mouse, the tripper is bare, the beggar, mabe I mix concrete, an glue an quick drying liquid wood to the peanur butter? might make harder for his teeth ha ha, heel have to see the mouse dentist afta that lot lol.

Gottaaaaa get this mousssssse.

Going back to catch up reading posts, I'm way behind again :P
jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 30, 2009, 06:32:25 AM

@ all
I had ahorrible thought a few days ago, here it is

If this world monetery crisis continues, what will happen to the internet, (which we rely on for this forum).
Is it possible for a satellite owner to faulter on a payment, and down she goes? or will it be OK.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 30, 2009, 08:42:19 AM

Quote from: xee2 on January 30, 2009, 02:28:12 AM
@ gadgetmall

I think your idea of adding the base capacitor was brilliant. It seems like it will speed up the turn-off time of the transistor which will in turn increase the output voltage. However, it also looks like it will stop the circuit from oscillating if the capacitance gets too large. What the best value is I do not know, but I would guess something like 50 pF to 100 pF.

Thanks . That is good for my lacking ego . Again another accidental find . I just happened to be trying Various diodes and caps on different spots and saw the leds get brighter and the current draw go WAY down.and Soldered that sucker . I tried Various caps last night and the optimum for this coil is 680pf or 68 pf . what i tried was more windings . it detuned and raised the current draw light went dim . i took more winding off . same thing except the current went up and the lights got brighter than bright . i did not have enuff adjustment on my pot to see if i could decrease the current and have full lit leds. i tried adding a secondary with 5 or 6 windings ,nothing on the output . and no further current draw either . so i will try winding a large secondary past the 80 windings with smaller wire and see if i can get anything off the secondary and without increasing the current draw . Also i am using an germanium Transistor . I will try a Silicon transistor today and see what happens.. Oh one more thing . the c2 on my circuit is across the battery . i removed it and the current draw went up and the light got dimmer . So with the elecro cap across the battery the current draw decreased by .20 ma and the light s got brighter . the reason i can see a different in light is i was running 4 leds at 1.15 ma total and the slightest difference is seen.In My circuit it is needed .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 30, 2009, 08:55:24 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 29, 2009, 09:55:37 PM
so should it be called npn and ppp lol

no way you could draw it up eh? useing to npn trannys to switch .. both??

would be a great help ;D

ist

now were cappin the gap lol 8)

the old cut the input way back trick :)

This schematic is a prove that the npn transistor can be used to manage a positive voltage. It works perfectly, but there is not charging feedback to the source.

Quote from: gadgetmall on January 29, 2009, 10:16:37 PM
@All
Here is My Schematic of post 1996 on page 200 of the Jt drawing .71 ma per led running 4 white Leds total current Draw Is 2.85 adjustable down to 1 ma for 4 leds .. I like it . Hope Someone replicates it . I posed before i read your post Jeanna . you might be right on the 68 pico i am not sure either . it is marked 680 ??? One more thing i forgot to mention is the cap across the battery . I completely forgot it and i don't know if it will make a difference or not . i guess i will try it with out the cap across the battery and see if it does anything and report back !!

@Jesus i bet you could clean up that ugly schematic of mine :) your things are on the way btw ..Edited AGAIN : i corrected the schemitic . it is now correct Symbols and polarity My Transistor is pnp
...

The schematic looks good If I find something that is not normal when I study it I will let you know.

Thanks for your help.

@pirate
Well wishes to the health of your cat.
Congratulations for your interesting thread.
Keep being as you are!

Quote from: electricme on January 30, 2009, 06:14:07 AM
...
Gottaaaaa get this mousssssse.
...
jim

There is an easy way I use to catch mouses. You take a whole roasted peanut, the ones that comes without peeling. Attach it to the mousetrap with a small ruber band and before setting the trap, you make a small hole on the peanut cask so the mouse can see its contents but cannot take it out easily.
When the mouse comes to this good smelling casked peanut, it will try to take it quick before the other mouses do it. And whamm, a dead mouse.
Take it and if it is small enough flush it through the toilet and reset the trap. I have killed on this way dozens of mouses. The trap should be set that with almost no force can be triggered.
You will see that there will be a lot less rats around your house. With the same peanut you can take down a dozen rats, that is if you set it again each time before the next rat take the bite from it.

By the way, are you the jim that sent the guru email idea?

@jeanna
You are the lady of the group. You are the one lady that makes the difference.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 30, 2009, 09:18:09 AM

well JESUS... ;D

that is almost my EXACT CURCUIT in my 6 freq controller except i used irf840 mosfets....

and i never used a bridge....

however with the fets i have seen many things ...

1 they need to be tapped some where else other than i have tapped them ... cux i keep blowing them ;D i bet it should be taken from the heat sink

anyhow .... i never tryed it from the jt supply ...

im winding a new coil agin ....

this time it is a garden wire core .... 50' and my second wind is over top of it like the GK4 but all 1 wire .... 28 ga many turns not done it yet ... this will be the high selfinductance winding .... squeezing the core ...

i wraped teflon tape over the core ... it is about 3.5 " across and i tryed to keep it as square as i could ...

so now i have a core of steel wire that will be electrofyed i should be able to wind on this a secondary ... ?? and extract power through transformer action?

i guess we will see..

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 30, 2009, 09:33:08 AM

@ all
In reference to my jt 80 turn series circuit with cap i wound a 100 turn secondary and did NOT get any Volts at all ! 0 - so the secondary is out on this design .I tried winding Cw and CCW no difference 0volts and tried an led nothing . It did however lower the current draw a bit with the wire on top of the Jt coil and the 4 leds are still lit brightly at 2.84 ma . I noticed current draw would go down slightly when i squeezed the outside wires of the toroid .I tried the 680 Pf on the Fugi Circuit to see the effects and it does reduce current draw and seems to prolong the life of the battery . i ran it with a cfl at the way to .47 volts before i lost usable light off the cfl .. the current draw is off the scale on my meter but it did go on scale after adding the cap . i will have to do further test as the battery will have to be soldered in this circuit because the battery holder is kind of loose on the fugi .I wanted top ost Fugi Results because this is very a useful device . The fugi with the cap runs for 4.25 hours on a rechargeable aa nicad producing usable CFL light . this is a 13 watt white light equivalent to a 60 watt incandescent bulb . Look at the light it produces in a dark room .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 30, 2009, 10:45:27 AM

all done this one turned out nice ....

ist!

added a close up of my coil

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 30, 2009, 11:00:23 AM

Quote from: electricme on January 30, 2009, 04:34:34 AM
@ gadgetmall
Nice find about the gouging carbon rods, its excellent leaving the last bit of copper on top of the rods to solder too.

About your iron wire coil in post 200, Perhapse if you might try this one instead, make a air coil on a toilet roll, at least 200 turns, put insulation tape around it to keep it together.

Then put the measuring instrument on it, press the button (to create the magnetic field, then release the button, the magnetic field collapses, creating the pulse of energy.
You should feel a pulse at TP

If you don't feel a pulse, put more turns on the coil, a oscillope should show the pulse, no matter how small it is.

If you get a pulse, put diode at TP position, then feed this to a cap to charge it up.

jim

gonna whip one of thease up next .... 8)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 30, 2009, 11:06:44 AM

Nice

Quote from: innovation_station on January 30, 2009, 10:45:27 AM
all done this one turned out nice ....

ist!

added a close up of my coil

Nice . Wheres the tap at ? I love the Smell Of Solder in the Morning ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 30, 2009, 01:13:47 PM

@ gadgetmall

Quote from: gadgetmall on January 30, 2009, 09:33:08 AM
so the secondary is out on this design

I suspect that you still had the LEDs connected to the collector and that the secondary will work if you try it without anything connected to the collector except the toroid. The Fuji board gets its output from the secondary and you said it worked. When using a secondary, the collector should not have anything other than the toroid connected to it in order to get the highest secondary voltage.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 30, 2009, 01:36:26 PM

Quote from: xee2 on January 29, 2009, 01:41:16 PM
@ timmy1729

This is how to hook up the transistors for a Darlington Joule Thief. Note that the base resistor will have to be larger since the Darlington pair has a larger gain than a single transistor. I do not know what value will work, I have just put 10K to show it needs to be greater than 1K (it may need to be as high as 100K). Also the circuit will stop working at a higher battery voltage (about 1 volt instead of 1/2 volt) because the voltage needs to be high enough to turn on two transistors junctions.

EDIT: I do not think there is any performance advantage produced by using a Darlington transistor. But, maybe your experiments will prove otherwise.

I can't remember if I've responded to this or not. *NOTE* If you take or ever take an antidepressant for ANY reason, do NOT let yourself run out and have to stop cold turkey. It is NOT good!

Anyway...
I have a TIP120 Darlington on my bigger JT and it gives me double the voltage without dropping the mA's too much. Using two separate transistors in a Darlington setup gave me less voltage, so I stuck with the TIP120. I have a TIP3055 that I'm going to try out ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 30, 2009, 02:01:14 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 29, 2009, 11:06:53 PM
I have just reread in my electronics books about this. Three legs is not a variable resistor, it is a potentiometer. As you can see on my latest video from a few days ago, I too used a pot as a VR. This is done, according to my books, by using the wiper and one of the other legs. If you use one, the resistance goes up as you turn CCW. If you use the other leg, the resistance goes down as you turn CCW. (and visa versa) Variable resistors have only 2 legs but Radio Shack did not have any so I used a pot. If I am incorrect about this, please, someone let me know. This is what my books say however.

@ All:

Thanks to everyone involved here on reaching the 200 page mark!!!!!!! Over 2,000 posts and we are still going. I still have to go back and catch up from a few pages back. My old cat (15 years) is very sick and I have been working with the vet and taking care of her most of the day. This is indeed a landmark and I appreciate that it was noticed by those that posted about it. Once again, to all of the experimenters and posters.......a real big THANK YOU. You all are great!!

Bil

Take care of your cat. We'll hold down the fort ;D Give her some extra catnip as a get-well from all of us ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 30, 2009, 02:06:25 PM

Quote from: Light on January 30, 2009, 12:27:13 AM

"Can you post how you hooked the JT's up for one to power the other?
- Just make two (or 3 or 5) and connect each following instead of LEDs.

Nothing happens here till we get amperage...

Could you be a tad more specific?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 30, 2009, 02:11:29 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on January 30, 2009, 08:42:19 AM
Thanks . That is good for my lacking ego . Again another accidental find . I just happened to be trying Various diodes and caps on different spots and saw the leds get brighter and the current draw go WAY down.and Soldered that sucker . I tried Various caps last night and the optimum for this coil is 680pf or 68 pf . what i tried was more windings . it detuned and raised the current draw light went dim . i took more winding off . same thing except the current went up and the lights got brighter than bright . i did not have enuff adjustment on my pot to see if i could decrease the current and have full lit leds. i tried adding a secondary with 5 or 6 windings ,nothing on the output . and no further current draw either . so i will try winding a large secondary past the 80 windings with smaller wire and see if i can get anything off the secondary and without increasing the current draw . Also i am using an germanium Transistor . I will try a Silicon transistor today and see what happens.. Oh one more thing . the c2 on my circuit is across the battery . i removed it and the current draw went up and the light got dimmer . So with the elecro cap across the battery the current draw decreased by .20 ma and the light s got brighter . the reason i can see a different in light is i was running 4 leds at 1.15 ma total and the slightest difference is seen.In My circuit it is needed .

What is pF in relation to uF? All of my caps are uF.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 30, 2009, 02:19:10 PM

@ timmy1729

Quote from: timmy1729 on January 30, 2009, 02:11:29 PM
What is pF in relation to uF? All of my caps are uF.

Converter here:

http://www.unitconversion.org/electrostatic-capacitance/picofarads-to-microfarads-conversion.html

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 30, 2009, 02:35:04 PM

I got it Lower . i wound a Smaller torroid that everyone else uses the about 1 inch one and i wound serial 100 turns center tapped . then on the rest of it i wound 30 turns secondary.. well i am running 4 leds now with less than 1 ma . i can go lower than that which is full bright . but i need to find another resistor because i am bottomed out at 1 ma :) :) :) same dead battery much brighter off the secondary with the cap on the var resistor :thats 1 ma /4 = 0.25ma each ...still experimenting with germanium though . batt at .88.edit ok i got it as low as it can go . i can adjust to.43 ma and still see all 4 lights . here is .81 ma lit good !!! i added another 20k pot and 680pf to the new coil above circuit.thats 0.20 ma per led . Hows that for improvment . I can now run these leds for a Very Very Very long time ..Off of dead batteries

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 30, 2009, 02:41:07 PM

@All

This is for all of you junk fanatics!
I remembered I had this old pc from around 1990 that I got from an old job and that I should be able to find some toroids in that power supply as well. I opened it up and let me tell you, this thing is a gold mine!

I counted six visible toroids of various sizes and windings! There are many different transformers of various sizes and a whole variety pack of caps! There are a couple of 200v 560uF caps on there and two 6.3v 6800uF caps and two 16v 3900 uF caps! Woohoo! ;D :o

One of the board in the pc had about four or five 2n3904 transistors on it! There are more resistors and diodes on this power supply than I could've imagined! It is a beautiful thing!

The point: With the two pc power supplies I've taken apart, the older it is the more cool parts you can find ;D
So, if you are looking for a good source of cheap parts, get an old pc at the flea market or junk yard and save yourself a LOT of money and save the planet at the same time ;D I will post some pics of the two halves of the power supply before I start taking parts from it. It's just a beautiful sight!

Can someone tell me how to test these transformers to see if they are 1:1 or are step-up/down and by how much?

Also, I need a little clarification on something. When I have a cap across the + and - of my LED(just for example), what matters more, the uF or the voltage? like above, I have 200v 560uF or 6.3v 6800uF. What would make my LED brighter, in theory? Caps still confuse me to no end. Does the voltage rating just say that it will output the current at that specific voltage and the uF just say how much current the cap can hold at that voltage? Can it hold current at a lower voltage and output it at that lower voltage? Or does it always output at that rated voltage? Can they hold more current at a lower voltage than it is rated for?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 30, 2009, 02:41:08 PM

@all

I just got 5 more 7w led to play with!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 30, 2009, 02:42:56 PM

you guys are in for a treat ... lol ;D

my little one picked out a new toy 8) for everyone to play with

THANK YOU ALIYAH :) !!!!

just what you need when you need it ;D

so she was at DOLLAR RAMMA .... and she found this little light flasher toy ..

just perfect need i say more .. cheep too 1 buck comes with 1 batteries 3 leds super brights blue green red ... and they chase each other 8)

i will mod it to run on a jt ... and it will turn on my ...... well whatever i hook it to ;D

ist

im going to town to buy a bunch to play with ill post a pic later of this cool unit

:)

i can think of many uses right of the top for this one ......

was thinking of 3 cameras right off the top ;D

how bout 3 jt's on 1 ring with a gen/transformer winding on top of it ...

you know me i will build it ... 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 30, 2009, 02:50:39 PM

@ist that is where a got my 7w led 1 dollar each at DOLLAR RAMMA there from night light bulbs!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 30, 2009, 02:53:19 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 30, 2009, 02:50:39 PM
@ist that is where a got my 7w led 1 dollar each at DOLLAR RAMMA there from night light bulbs!

are you kidding me ... lol

awsome ...

there on the list too!!!! ;D 8)

bbl8r

made a quick video lol of the one i have :)

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=BYeoj2rO720

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 30, 2009, 03:23:08 PM

@Timmy. cool eh! i love power supplyes too.
@mk1 do you see what i did .20 per led :) now there more current left for that 555 !lots more

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 30, 2009, 03:41:09 PM

@all
Here is the newest Schematic for my new Low power JT . .20 ma per white led post 2067 has pictures . it used the secondary of 30 turns to light 4 leds at .81 ma total draw .. can adj lower to 0.43 ma
When you wind this toroid wind 3/4 with 100 turns single wire but pull out a center tap loop at 50 . then wind the 30 turns on the rest of the 1/4 space .. I used enameled wire probable 20-26 . Someone replicate this PLease .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 30, 2009, 03:55:50 PM

@ gadgetmall

The germanium transistor should allow you to get the LEDs to light at a lower battery voltage. To make an accurate comparison between the germanium and silicon transistors you should commpare the input power not just the currents. Input power = battery voltage times battery current. Example: (0.88 volts) x (1 ma) = 0.88 milliwatts input power. With the germanium transistor it may take more battery current to get the same LED brightness, but when you compare the input power, the germanium will probably be the same. The advantage of the germanium is that it will work with lower voltages so simple home made batteries should make it work (for example, a nail and a copper wire in salt water)..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 30, 2009, 03:58:14 PM

@all
This topic is moving fast and there is happiness on all of us.

@gadgetmall and @innovation
You are going very fast on the discoveries. I need some time to digest all the information available now.

@pirate

The fuji circuit arrived today. It is as the circuit I used to make my first neon bulb to light. I broke that one doing experiments. The only things left are the transformer and the transistor.
I will use this one more carefully when experimenting.

Thank you Bill !

The photos I took did not get too clear and I tried about four times.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 30, 2009, 04:01:06 PM

@gadgetmall

Great work! We will need all the juice , some from the hemf , some from the secondaries , and we could send the initial pulse to one other battery and better would be switching battery on each cycle it would run longer , and we may get a better idea on running it on caps.

@allso

The aluminium wire need a special connector to be directly connected to copper , yes interesting, also it is more resistive so you get a higher voltage per turn then copper, also it is 2 times more conductive that copper per weight,(it means you get a big copper wire conductivity in a smaller size and a higher voltage, This is a god idea for secondary!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 30, 2009, 04:33:21 PM

@ timmy1729

Quote from: timmy1729 on January 30, 2009, 02:41:07 PM
Also, I need a little clarification on something. When I have a cap across the + and - of my LED(just for example), what matters more, the uF or the voltage? like above, I have 200v 560uF or 6.3v 6800uF. What would make my LED brighter, in theory? Caps still confuse me to no end. Does the voltage rating just say that it will output the current at that specific voltage and the uF just say how much current the cap can hold at that voltage? Can it hold current at a lower voltage and output it at that lower voltage? Or does it always output at that rated voltage? Can they hold more current at a lower voltage than it is rated for?

I suggest you start here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 30, 2009, 04:38:30 PM

Quote from: xee2 on January 30, 2009, 03:55:50 PM
@ gadgetmall

The germanium transistor should allow you to get the LEDs to light at a lower battery voltage. To make an accurate comparison between the germanium and silicon transistors you should commpare the input power not just the currents. Input power = battery voltage times battery current. Example: (0.88 volts) x (1 ma) = 0.88 milliwatts input power. With the germanium transistor it may take more battery current to get the same LED brightness, but when you compare the input power, the germanium will probably be the same. The advantage of the germanium is that it will work with lower voltages so simple home made batteries should make it work (for example, a nail and a copper wire in salt water)..

Right thats why i always state the battery voltage . The main thing is that i have accomplished something open source that has not been done yet .With the exception Of Jeannas Experiments her lowest Ma per led is .78ma i believe . that is good too . This opens the door up to now power many Leds and motors or whatever from earth batteries and possibles Thermoelectric Cooler module . i have one that puts out 12 volts when heated on one side or small solar cells and even shining light on red leds to produce power . i understand they produce 1.5 volts in sun . i think that one or two will be enuff to power this circuit . and i expect this germanium transistor to oscillate at less than .20 ma . I have made it possible to do many things for practicaly no current .. My next few steps are going to be for the 0 volt fets which then will be self powering . it might be possible now to run a second secondary and loop it back because of the Low Volts /current it takes to run it . I might try that with a Super cap .Also i might add that the toroid is now extreamly sensitive to touch . If i touch the toroid the lights go out and the current goes up . Also with a magnet

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 30, 2009, 06:01:13 PM

Quote from: timmy1729 on January 30, 2009, 02:41:07 PM
@All

This is for all of you junk fanatics!
I remembered I had this old pc from around 1990 that I got from an old job and that I should be able to find some toroids in that power supply as well. I opened it up and let me tell you, this thing is a gold mine!

I counted six visible toroids of various sizes and windings! There are many different transformers of various sizes and a whole variety pack of caps! There are a couple of 200v 560uF caps on there and two 6.3v 6800uF caps and two 16v 3900 uF caps! Woohoo! ;D :o

One of the board in the pc had about four or five 2n3904 transistors on it! There are more resistors and diodes on this power supply than I could've imagined! It is a beautiful thing!

The point: With the two pc power supplies I've taken apart, the older it is the more cool parts you can find ;D
So, if you are looking for a good source of cheap parts, get an old pc at the flea market or junk yard and save yourself a LOT of money and save the planet at the same time ;D I will post some pics of the two halves of the power supply before I start taking parts from it. It's just a beautiful sight!

Can someone tell me how to test these transformers to see if they are 1:1 or are step-up/down and by how much?

Also, I need a little clarification on something. When I have a cap across the + and - of my LED(just for example), what matters more, the uF or the voltage? like above, I have 200v 560uF or 6.3v 6800uF. What would make my LED brighter, in theory? Caps still confuse me to no end. Does the voltage rating just say that it will output the current at that specific voltage and the uF just say how much current the cap can hold at that voltage? Can it hold current at a lower voltage and output it at that lower voltage? Or does it always output at that rated voltage? Can they hold more current at a lower voltage than it is rated for?

Here are the pics:

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 30, 2009, 06:12:03 PM

@ timmy1729

With regards to your earlier question. A capacitor is like a large bucket. Instead of storing water it stores charge. The larger the capacitance in Farads the larger the bucket is and the more charge it can store. A large bucket can store a small amount or a large amount. The amount stored is just like how full a glass of water is. The voltage rating is the maximum voltage difference between the terminals before the capacitor will self destruct. I hope that helps some.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 30, 2009, 06:22:29 PM

@timmy

I think i also see a diode bridge on the second picture.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on January 30, 2009, 06:54:13 PM

@ timmy1729

they sure look cleanner that the brocked atx power supply i got.
i got many of them on the scrap pile...

they got about the same parts, bridge, fets, etc... <--hint to everyone

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on January 30, 2009, 09:24:45 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on January 29, 2009, 09:13:21 PM
@resonanceman

you could try it as a replacement for the 3904 but i don't think it will start the jt.
IRF510 gate threshold is 2 volts min, 4 volts max.

you might like to try with xee2's Darlington scematic
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg153736#msg153736

just make sure the IRF510 gate is not feed more then 4 volts.

Thanks TheNOP

I am going to studdy the darlington circuit and see what I come up with .

At first the narrow voltage range seemed like a problem .

Honesty I don't know where I am going with this circuit .
My knowledge of electronics is pretty limited.

I am following my intuition with this.
My intuition related to electronics is kind of new to me.
I am much better at translating my intuition when it comes to mechanical things .

I am not sure how to wire it ..........but is it possible to use a string of diodes that have a voltage drop that adds up to 4 V?
I think a way to explain it is the connected across the diode string . The voltage of the source and drain would float in relation to the gate and diode string .

On the darlington circuit it might work to remove the 1N4007 diode and the 10 K resistor .
A diode string would be placed from where the 10 K resistor was to the bottom line on the drawing ( from gate to source ? )

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on January 31, 2009, 12:25:58 AM

Quote from: resonanceman on January 30, 2009, 09:24:45 PM
Thanks TheNOP

I am going to studdy the darlington circuit and see what I come up with .

At first the narrow voltage range seemed like a problem .

Honesty I don't know where I am going with this circuit .
My knowledge of electronics is pretty limited.

I am following my intuition with this.
My intuition related to electronics is kind of new to me.
I am much better at translating my intuition when it comes to mechanical things .

I am not sure how to wire it ..........but is it possible to use a string of diodes that have a voltage drop that adds up to 4 V?
I think a way to explain it is the connected across the diode string . The voltage of the source and drain would float in relation to the gate and diode string .

On the darlington circuit it might work to remove the 1N4007 diode and the 10 K resistor .
A diode string would be placed from where the 10 K resistor was to the bottom line on the drawing ( from gate to source ? )

gary

adding a one or 2 diodes before the gate might help(.707 volt drop for each).
but changing the resistor(10k) value should adjust the voltage at the fet gate, if needed.

the 1N4007 diode and the 100 pf capacitor are only needed to get a reading on you voltmeter.
i suggest using a bridge + capacitor instead to get a more accurate reading.

@all
I am asking myself questions about possibilities of rising current consumption.

at school they teach us lengthy on how to get ride of in rush current, bemf, hemf and switching bounce effects.
but not how we could harness them.

from the watts reading i get in a basic jt, i think the fets gate should withstand the spikes, but...
what if we get the hemf really bigger ?

there is two ways i can think of to block the spikes: surge suppressor and zener diode.
those two ways are almost always a waist in energy.
hooking either between the fet gate, or the first transistor collector, and the minus side of the battery might still get the jt running.

i am currently trying different design with a mix of simple inductor + toroid with matched and unmatched turns.
i will post if i find something interesting.

first thing so far is that the first inductance, the one that connect to the base, capacitance change with the number of turn.
in the capacitor to the base schematic, the capacitor is not really needed to adjust the circuit current.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 31, 2009, 02:16:59 AM

@ Timmy1729
I don't know if anyone replied to your P207 cry for understanding of capacitors.
Join the club mate, these things are confusing to any newbie, but I will try to explain one type.

The Electrolytic

These capacitors are polaritory sensitive, there will be a Positave and a Negative connection
The majoritory have 2 wires coming out of the bottom of the cap.

OLDER electros were called Axiel caps, these have a single wire coming out of either end, the Neg is marked such.
These are horizontally mounted.

On the outside of the Vertical mounted cap, will be an indicator of some kind to show you which wire is the Negative one.
This is generally a vertical different colour stripe with a row of ----- going from top to bottom, the wire closest to this indicator is the Negative.

Don't connect capacitors (electros) around the wrong way, they might go boooom.

If you have a cap, the voltage is marked on its side, if it shows 16v that means 16v DC is the limit for that cap
If you connect this cap to 24v it will try to peg the voltage back to 16v but it will begin to get hot and it will fail.

If you see a capacitor (electro) that is leaking white or brown stuff, that cap has been stressed, toss it away
If you see a capacitor that the top is bulging, that cap has been stressed, toss it away.

The uF or pF is the amount of electrical energy the capacitor can hold.
A uF cap can hold a lot more than a pF cap

Theres a whole lot more about caps, but take it from me, you only need to know about the above ones for the time being, better not confuse anyone with too much detail.

hope that helped yo timmy

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 31, 2009, 02:19:59 AM

Thanks to everyone that has expressed concern about my cat. I live alone and she has been my roommate for a little over 15 years. She is hanging in there at this time but I have been in constant contact with the vet since I took her in yesterday for tests. She is home with me and I am trying to take care of her.

I have not had the time to read all of the posts on this, our fast moving topic. I popped in a time or two but I am very behind. Everyone keep up the great work being done here and I will join you as soon as I can. Thank you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: b0rg13 on January 31, 2009, 03:05:25 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 31, 2009, 02:19:59 AM
Thanks to everyone that has expressed concern about my cat. I live alone and she has been my roommate for a little over 15 years. She is hanging in there at this time but I have been in constant contact with the vet since I took her in yesterday for tests. She is home with me and I am trying to take care of her.

I have not had the time to read all of the posts on this, our fast moving topic. I popped in a time or two but I am very behind. Everyone keep up the great work being done here and I will join you as soon as I can. Thank you.

Bill

good luck and i wish you the best with your cat Bill.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on January 31, 2009, 04:37:58 AM

@Xee, Jim
Thanks for the explanations!

So far, I've gotten 5 transformers, the two 200v 560uF caps, many other caps, an MJE13007A transistor, one small toroid, and two bridges off of the boards. I found another Schottky diode on the other board. I will get that tomorrow. Now, it is time to sleep.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 31, 2009, 05:58:27 AM

@ Bill,
Sorry to hear your cat is not feeling too good just now, hope he will get well, you take care also.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 31, 2009, 08:36:38 AM

hi guys i found this really stupidly simple free engery device ;D

thought i would share it :)

i have 2 of them maybe 3 8)

ist!

ringggggg ringggggggg anyone home ;) got the buzz buzz model tooo lol

im gonna make you a VIDEO of my door bell lol ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 31, 2009, 09:09:11 AM

@all

Congratulations to all experimenters here.
This is the link for @jonnydavro's joule thief bedini motor runner. For anyone interested.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6688.new#new

@pirate
We love you. A christian love I mean.

@ist
That buzzer looks promising.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 31, 2009, 09:43:20 AM

8)

well time will tell

ist!

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=LIf3a72f4lo

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on January 31, 2009, 09:59:59 AM

Very cool ITS.

Where did you find a doorbell like that?

I have an old one thats not hooked up any more but it wont work for that. :(

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 31, 2009, 10:53:16 AM

@all . this is the final Mod to Very Low Power Joule Thief . I have Named it Fusionchip/Jeanna Low Power JT Or FJLP Because it used some of her Work !! Combined it produces a Usable Output at Very Low Input Power .Let me Recap : It Beats all Know Public Domain Joule Thief Experimenter Circuits that use a transistor and Claimed to be The Lowest Input power to light 4 White Leds @ .202ma each. So a Normal Jt will extract from a battery 10-15ma while this one extracts 0.20 - 1 ma .. adjustable .. You need two Pots and two 680-Pf . I tried a lot of combinations replacing one pot with a 20 k resistor and it did not reduce the current . I tried different coil configurations for primary and secondary and this is the best combination i came up with . It might be improved So go for it . Also i wound the Coil in an Unusual way and if you want to build it i will give you the SECRET I came up with ;D Can you Guess ??? We will see .Duplicate the Circuit and post the picture and Pm me For the Secret . Hint : I wound primary With One wire .Heres a Quiz for Ya . A cowboy rode into town one weekend on friday and stayed at the Inn for three days and then left on friday . How did he do it ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 31, 2009, 11:44:23 AM

awsome job GADGET!!

;D

thought i would post my next unit

8)

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on January 31, 2009, 11:49:44 AM

Well...I am unable load images or drawings into my pc at present...but I did stay at a Holiday Inn - and I too rode into town on a Friday...stayed the night...and me and my mule rode another 4 hours and arrived home Friday morning.

Wood that qualify me to PM you for the 'secret' ?

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 31, 2009, 11:51:09 AM

Thanks IST ! What are those things at the bottom ?Magnets ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 31, 2009, 11:54:37 AM

@Cap-Z-ro

HAHA ;D No . Wrong Answer !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: plengo on January 31, 2009, 12:30:00 PM

Could someone please, post the lastest schematics for this device here again?

Thank you, Fausto.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on January 31, 2009, 12:39:40 PM

Quote from: plengo on January 31, 2009, 12:30:00 PM
Could someone please, post the lastest schematics for this device here again?

Thank you, Fausto.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg154173#msg154173
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg153745#msg153745

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 31, 2009, 01:07:08 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on January 31, 2009, 10:53:16 AM
@all . this is the final Mod to Very Low Power Joule Thief . I have Named it Fusionchip/Jeanna Low Power JT Or FJLP Because it used some of her Work !! Combined it produces a Usable Output at Very Low Input Power .Let me Recap : It Beats all Know Public Domain Joule Thief Experimenter Circuits that use a transistor and Claimed to be The Lowest Input power to light 4 White Leds @ .202ma each. So a Normal Jt will extract from a battery 10-15ma while this one extracts 0.20 - 1 ma .. adjustable .. You need two Pots and two 680-Pf . I tried a lot of combinations replacing one pot with a 20 k resistor and it did not reduce the current . I tried different coil configurations for primary and secondary and this is the best combination i came up with . It might be improved So go for it . Also i wound the Coil in an Unusual way and if you want to build it i will give you the SECRET I came up with ;D Can you Guess ??? We will see .Duplicate the Circuit and post the picture and Pm me For the Secret . Hint : I wound primary With One wire .Heres a Quiz for Ya . A cowboy rode into town one weekend on friday and stayed at the Inn for three days and then left on friday . How did he do it ?

@ gadget:

Great job!

But, to distract myself for a bit, I did some quick calculations on one of my modified Fuji circuits. You still beat me but I ran those 400 leds drawing 3.1 mA's per led. (Not 10-15 mA's) With 2 of those circuits in series, I think I can cut that figure in half. (Total power was 1.24 amps/400 = 3.1) PS the mule's name was Friday. I have not read past your post in case you gave the answer away.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 31, 2009, 01:44:36 PM

@ Pirate

You are correct and win the Prize . However i tested the input on a Fugi and its over 2000 ma event if you dont put a load on it . I managed to get it down a bit by using My new circuits 680 pf and got the current draw to 1900 ma it could use some work .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 31, 2009, 01:48:44 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on January 29, 2009, 11:53:08 PM
@ pirate
A variable resistor is a pot . for instance a 20k pot is 20 k across and we use the wiper to varie the resistance from 20k to 0 . right ?. I have been in the tv radio business for a long time and a ham operator for 20 years and i can't say that i ever saw a two legged variable resistor unless its a thermistor .

Sorry for the delay in response. I always thought so too as they both seem to act the same. I was just repeating what I had just read in one of my electronic books. On the chapter on vr's, it showed a photo of with just 2 tabs. Then, under that was a photo of a pot and it has 3 tabs. The only difference I can see is that with the pot, depending on which 2 of the 3 tabs you use, you can make the resistance go up or down on the same directional turning of the knob. (hard to put into words correctly) In other words, if I want more resistance by turning the knob clockwise, I can get that. If I want less resistance by turning the knob clockwise, I can get that by using the wiper and the other tab instead. Does this make sense? That is what I am using as Radio Shack did not have any 2 tabs versions. (Maybe they don't make them anymore? This book was about 20 years old or so.)

Man, with your years in tv/radio business and ham hobby, I'll bet you have all kinds of great stuff lying around. That is great. Several folks on youtube have suggested we try running the JT circuit from just an antenna, do you think this is even possible? Art Bell, late night talk radio host (coast to coast show) said once that he put in an antenna array at his home in Nevada and it was the largest of it's kind ever built. He said he had to have an electrician put special devices because he was getting over 200 volts from the air somewhere and it was blowing his stuff. Ever heard of this?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 31, 2009, 02:13:31 PM

@ gadgetmall

Quote from: gadgetmall on January 31, 2009, 01:44:36 PM
However i tested the input on a Fugi and its over 2000 ma

??? I have tested several Fuji boards and they were all using only about 360 ma with the large cap removed. I did not test with the large cap still on the board, but all of our tests have been with the cap removed.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 31, 2009, 02:16:07 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 31, 2009, 01:48:44 PM
Sorry for the delay in response. I always thought so too as they both seem to act the same. I was just repeating what I had just read in one of my electronic books. On the chapter on vr's, it showed a photo of with just 2 tabs. Then, under that was a photo of a pot and it has 3 tabs. The only difference I can see is that with the pot, depending on which 2 of the 3 tabs you use, you can make the resistance go up or down on the same directional turning of the knob. (hard to put into words correctly) In other words, if I want more resistance by turning the knob clockwise, I can get that. If I want less resistance by turning the knob clockwise, I can get that by using the wiper and the other tab instead. Does this make sense? That is what I am using as Radio Shack did not have any 2 tabs versions. (Maybe they don't make them anymore? This book was about 20 years old or so.)

Man, with your years in tv/radio business and ham hobby, I'll bet you have all kinds of great stuff lying around. That is great. Several folks on youtube have suggested we try running the JT circuit from just an antenna, do you think this is even possible? Art Bell, late night talk radio host (coast to coast show) said once that he put in an antenna array at his home in Nevada and it was the largest of it's kind ever built. He said he had to have an electrician put special devices because he was getting over 200 volts from the air somewhere and it was blowing his stuff. Ever heard of this?

Bill

Hi as a matter of fact i have heard of antennas pulling energy out of the vacuum of space ! Thats Exactly how to make what they call and earth/air High Voltage Battery . You ground a copper rod in the earth and attach the wire to one end of a Hv cap then run another wire 200 feet up . and attach the other end of the HV cap . You will have a limitless supply of high voltage only limited by you cap Voltage . It will light neons and probably CFs and florescent tubes . i got two of everything from High powered burning lasers to tesla Flyback . down to metal that catches on fire when it gets wet and metal that is solid at room temperature and turns liquid at 108 degrees.Radioactive rocks and yea tons of ham radios and junk i have collected from the past ..Im a Pack Rat . Here is one of my latest Toys . i need a tube for it . one was broke . 6CW5 This baby put out pulses from .01 kc to over 2.5 mc at voltages at adj. voltages up to 40 Volts . Now i wonder what a TPU or a Toroid / Coil will do with that !! :o I'm gonna find out !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 31, 2009, 02:20:46 PM

Quote from: xee2 on January 31, 2009, 02:13:31 PM
@ gadgetmall

??? I have tested several Fuji boards and they were all using only about 360 ma with the large cap removed. I did not test with the large cap still on the board, but all of our tests have been with the cap removed.

Interesting . i have three more i will check them for current draw when i rip em apart . Mine draws a lot but then it will light up a large CFL with no problem either . It light a 15 watt Blindingly bright ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 31, 2009, 02:27:44 PM

gadget YOU GOT 2 of everyone knowen to man lol

well im takeing apart my door bells ... i want the coils ... ;D

i just happin to have some pipe strap laying around ... might even have 9 coils... ;D

;D and still 1 BUZZER ;)

ROTOATION FROM A PULSE ... 8)

AND GENERATED ELECTRICTY... WILL IT WORK ?!?!?!?!?!

;D

IST!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 31, 2009, 02:40:12 PM

Pirate,

All pots have 3 leads on them. the 2 outside leads are the ends of the resistor and the center lead is the wiper. There were different configurations that were used in older style radios and schematics and I guess still today. If you only used one side of the pot and the wiper the drawing would usually only show these two connections. Also, in some schematics the wiper would be connected to one side of the resistor.

I remember having a long wire antenna probably each side was 60' long. We had it strung out in the yard with the center only about 4' off of the ground. It was a windy day an I think there were storms in the area. We measured close to 1000 volts on the antenna leads. We were not sucking in the ether, it is only a static charge caused by the wind with the possible help of the thunderstorms in the vicinity.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 31, 2009, 03:07:54 PM

@ All:

OK, once again I am showing my ignorance. (I am getting used to it) When I posted about the Fuji circuit using 1,240 mA's, I based that on testing the battery I used by itself. I figured it could not draw more mA's than the battery had in it, which is probably true. Now, if I wanted to test on how many mA's it is drawing while lighting 400 leds....how would I do this exactly? If it was using less mA's than the battery had to offer, then my numbers of mA's per led would drop way down I would guess. I really have no idea how to measure the current draw when connected to all of my leds. If someone tells me, and I have the stuff I need to do it, I will do it. I just figured that with the heavy load of all those leds, it would be using everything the battery had to offer. Once again, I may be wrong. Thank you all.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 31, 2009, 03:18:27 PM

er Bill you put an amp meter in series with the battery . the meter i used had 2000ma 20ma and 200ua . My little Fugi power pack put the meter in OL on the 2000ma using a new Metal-Hydride 1.2 volt battery with 2400 MaH . Now i lowered the input current By putting a 680 pf cap across the base resistor to coil and got it down to 1900 and some and i think this can be got even lower with a variable resistor (pot) in series with the resistor by the transistor . Also i Might add that this is factory made and don't count in the Who can get the Lowest ma draw Contest :) But this Fugi is VERY important .and you win the who can light the most LEDS with a 1.5 volt battery so far !! SOMEONE needs to wind a homemade fugi Toroid . I understand that was Mk1'slittle Contest .Who can Light a tube up First with a homemade coil . When that happens then i think Further improvements can and will be made to reduce the input current to light 1000's of leds for less than 1 ma total . Just a guess but because this is "cold Electricity and you can light up a string of 100 with one wire then it make ggod sence that this is Different electricity than a regular Jt . Its something More .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 31, 2009, 03:48:09 PM

my sg coil is almost done NO!! that does not stand for school girl .... lol

i only used 6 coils ... but it is verry kool :P

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on January 31, 2009, 03:49:31 PM

Better reread that GM...you will see that my mule is named Friday...same as your horse.

And I think my mule may have been around longer than your horsey. :)

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Freezer on January 31, 2009, 03:53:40 PM

Finally got the neon to light up using a coil.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yE5BTwnuKE&feature=channel_page

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 31, 2009, 04:27:55 PM

@ Gadgetmall:

Thank you for the info. I will try to get some readings in about a week or so.

I agree 100% with what you are saying here. As far as "competition" goes, I like to look at things that way as it spurs me on to try to do better, or bigger, or more...or like you...with less. It is all friendly anyway. We are all on the same team here as far as I am concerned.

Now that I know how to check the power draw, I will also go back and replicate my breadboard JT's (I have 4 versions as of this time) and see what they are pulling also. And yes, if someone lights a tube with a "standard" JT circuit, that would be something for sure. Thanks again.

@ Freezer:

Nice video and great job!!! (5 stars) If you can light a neon, do you think it will light a 4 watt tube?

@ IST:

Good job on your video as well. (I gave you 5 stars as well) Keep up your great work here.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on January 31, 2009, 04:52:02 PM

Any one try running two joule thiefs on one transistor?

I tried it and it seems to run twice as fast.
As they both trigger each other.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on January 31, 2009, 04:57:07 PM

Here's a circuit for it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on January 31, 2009, 04:58:22 PM

Sorry that didnt turn out to good ::)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 31, 2009, 07:09:04 PM

@ Freezer

Another great video. Thanks. Is the coil air core? If the fluorescent tube won't light with 1.5 volts try 3.0 volts. It looks like your components will take 3 volts and that would show how close you are (I think tube will light with 3 volts).

How many turns on coil?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 31, 2009, 07:24:01 PM

Quote from: Cap-Z-ro on January 31, 2009, 03:49:31 PM
Better reread that GM...you will see that my mule is named Friday...same as your horse.

And I think my mule may have been around longer than your horsey. :)

Regards...

View Profile Email Personal Message (Online)


Re: Jule Thief
Â« Reply #2097 on: Today at 11:49:44 AM Â»
   Reply with quoteQuote

Well...I am unable load images or drawings into my pc at present...but I did stay at a Holiday Inn - and I too rode into town on a Friday...stayed the night...and me and my mule rode another 4 hours and arrived home Friday morning.

Wood that qualify me to PM you for the 'secret' ?
HAHA you said nd I too rode into town on a Friday..but hey . you can have it too .!

.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on January 31, 2009, 08:12:50 PM

Thanks GM,

My mule will be staying in the barn, unless somebody wants to go riding Friday. :)

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 31, 2009, 09:01:41 PM

@ Bill . Thank you Man for making me feel like im at home here . Your a good Spirit to be around . I enjoy helping others and like being with Positive Attitudes Like most here that contributed to this Big Thread . It's like home here , kick up ma feet and talk like i want and get very few spits in eye anymore now that My ol lady is gone Bye bye :-* ;D . I.The First Schematic on page 200 i believe is a regular Joule thief that was far better than the ones on the build it yourself sites . it drew just 3 ma lighting 4 Leds . That was a bit of an improvement for a Normal JT - way better than those single aa flashlights you buy . they only last at the most a day or two,and now i need to go thru everyone of the modified flashlights i have cause they are probably flawing 10 - 15 ma ,and add a PF cap to them . cause 1 ma is better than 3 . I wish everyone would make at least one of Jeanna's and one of these . I have one of Jeanna's that has been on for a week Straight Lighting My bedroom at night . 10 white leds running Do you realize that one of these baby's and Some fugi's once we get em wound right and Current down . pretty much every light in the house could run off a 12 volt lead acid batt with a voltage Divider to drop it to 1.5 volts , for years ? All My lights are cfl and florescent U tubes anyway like most Bet that would help out a lot of folks here . Too bad the rest of the World outside of overunity.com Dont know about these things yet we got and make . . ..I think we need to get serious down with this and do it .

Where's Jeanna ? i Miss her Calculations ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 31, 2009, 10:24:44 PM

@ Gadgetmall:

Thank you for your kind words. I remember back a few pages....maybe 50, (ha ha) IST modified an led flashlight with the JT circuit. This light is almost exactly like one I have, which I have not yet modified. Here is what I do not understand. If I were in the flashlight manufacturing business, (I spent 18 years in a manufacturing business) and I could make a flashlight that ran on only 1 AA battery, that had very good light output and lasted 5 times longer than the ones with 3 AA bats, why would I not do it? I really don't get this.

Some have said that the JT is nothing new and every EE knows all about it. OK, fine...maybe. What about all of the EE's that work for companies designing flashlights? Could they not charge a little more for a light like IST's, even though it is probably cheaper to make in the first place? Why do we buy a flashlight anyway? We want portable light, a lot of light, and for the longest time possible. Well, to me the JT already does this even without any of the advances we have made on here. So, this tells me that maybe, since everyone always knew about the JT circuit that maybe in actuality, they did not.

We now have a major flashlight company using supercaps instead of batteries. Their light costs over $165.00. It was just released. Hell, you all know I don't know all that much about electronics but I could have told them to use supercaps over a year ago. If I can figure this stuff out, what about the engineers that work for these companies?
Heck, leds have been around for a while and they are just now starting to use them on a regular basis.

So, I guess my main point here is......let's keep on working because, I get this feeling that we ARE the cutting edge. Let the others catch up when they decide they probably should.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 31, 2009, 10:27:15 PM

@all

Congratulations to all that are experimenting and geting results.

Now there is more competition to get the cfl to light with 1.5v and a joule thief.

Jesus

By the way I made a circuit of a joule thief that runs my pulse motor I will post it tomorrow morning for everybody to replicate. The help on this one came from @jonnydavro.
I did a different version though.
Thanks to all.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 31, 2009, 10:47:46 PM

@all

The voltage multiplier circuit is great!!! All the EE's will tell you but there is no significant amperage and whatever. But there is alot of potential for some amperage to be derived from the little stun gun circuits being built.

If for every milli amp milli second you have a voltage multiplier circuit that raises the voltage on a variable capacitor 20volts: At the end of 1 second your capacitor would be up to 20,000 volts. After 2 seconds 40,000 volts. After a minute 1.2 million volts. Now short that capacitor out in say a millisecond.
Amperage in your circuit will be I=E/r Since your resistance is as close to zero as you can get it say .1 ohms. Amperage is now going to be 1.2million volts/.1 or in a miilisecond you are going to get a flow of 10.2 million amps. This was from a flow of 1 milliamp for 1 minute into your system. Lets break that 10.2 million amps for one millisecond down compared to your investment amperage. Input 1 milliamp minutes Output 170 milliamp minutes. There is a gain of 169 milliamps per minute or in one hour you have some extra work of about 10.14 amp hours. If your 10.2million for a millisecond discharge is invested in some reactive energy system that allows this discharge to oscillate for an hour instead of just flowing for 1 millisecond you can see that your voltage multiplier circuit coupled to the proper capacitor and resonant circuit can get very powerful very quickly. 10.2 million amps flowing in a resonant circuit for an hour is sure to let the near field get excited more than lighting up an incandescent bulb with the same investment wattage.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 31, 2009, 11:07:49 PM

Quote from: sparks on January 31, 2009, 10:47:46 PM
@all

The voltage multiplier circuit is great!!! All the EE's will tell you but there is no significant amperage and whatever. But there is alot of potential for some amperage to be derived from the little stun gun circuits being built.

If for every milli amp milli second you have a voltage multiplier circuit that raises the voltage on a variable capacitor 20volts: At the end of 1 second your capacitor would be up to 20,000 volts. After 2 seconds 40,000 volts. After a minute 1.2 million volts. Now short that capacitor out in say a millisecond.
Amperage in your circuit will be I=E/r Since your resistance is as close to zero as you can get it say .1 ohms. Amperage is now going to be 1.2million volts/.1 or in a miilisecond you are going to get a flow of 10.2 million amps. This was from a flow of 1 milliamp for 1 minute into your system. Lets break that 10.2 million amps for one millisecond down compared to your investment amperage. Input 1 milliamp minutes Output 170 milliamp minutes. There is a gain of 169 milliamps per minute or in one hour you have some extra work of about 10.14 amp hours. If your 10.2million for a millisecond discharge is invested in some reactive energy system that allows this discharge to oscillate for an hour instead of just flowing for 1 millisecond you can see that your voltage multiplier circuit coupled to the proper capacitor and resonant circuit can get very powerful very quickly. 10.2 million amps flowing in a resonant circuit for an hour is sure to let the near field get excited more than lighting up an incandescent bulb with the same investment wattage.

Hi CAn you put up a voltage Divider circuit that will Multiply a jule thief out put tp say 1000 volts without it drawing more than an led current of say 1 ma continues . The out put has to be Pulsed to run a divider correct ? or does it have to be pure dc first ?
AL

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 31, 2009, 11:07:51 PM

my next pic of my last coil ...

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on January 31, 2009, 11:21:26 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on January 28, 2009, 09:13:20 PM
Hello their . First off there have been improvement made. Just look at a regular Joule thief . It will run for about three days with the led hooked up to the collector +em miter . Now Jeanna has Discovered we can run 20+ Leds from the back spike alone with less current draw and more light for a longer period of time than the Jt that was originally in the first few pages of this thread . .

just my observation but unless my calculations are wrong i can run a led at full brightness for 7.5 days.

2700mah rechargable nimh / 15mah jt draw / 24 hours in a day = 7.5 days.

now my only question is how much are we getting off those PV garden lights? can u say never ending light?

let me run this scenario by you, take a electrical outlet, restrict the flow with a RF choke and adjust the voltage/amp so that we have 1.2 @ 15mah now we can use this to keep AA charged and in the event wall power is severed you have emergency light!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 31, 2009, 11:28:01 PM

@all

I see you all did great the last few days , thanks all, great work again!

I ran six 7 watt luxon on one pickup coil(secondary) no problem ! Full brightness !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on January 31, 2009, 11:43:05 PM

does anyone have a link to that SEC group?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 01, 2009, 12:07:21 AM

Hi everybody,
Last week I dug my old iMac out of a box and as of today I have a working running debian linux system!!! Whew. well, a few things are running right. I still have challenges, but I am so pleased.

@Gadgetmail, I noticed, finally!, that you are using a PNP transistor. I bought a few of those a couple of years ago but never used them. Is there some reason that you use PNP? or is it because it is a germanium transistor that you use it?

@Arctic Knight,
5 years ago I made a dozen little single led "candles" which I made with 47 ohm resistors and 2 NiMH batteries. They ran for 30 days. The first week to 10 days they were bright enough that it was hard to say they were using anything. I just want to caution you about conclusions, here. Leds are very interesting things, they actually TAKE less from the battery as there is less to take. Anyway, it makes making comparisons really hard.

[BTW there is a commercial fake candle made with 2 batteries but it uses a transistor to make a fake flicker. I have some of these which I got out of curiosity. They run very low in a week. They really only last Monday to Friday. ;) ]

@Slayer, Do you suppose you could put your scanner on a diet? I would like to see that all in one page. Please?

@IST, those are really nice looking coil wheels.
Did you put a wire through the center of the individual coils on their way to the larger ring?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 01, 2009, 12:36:40 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on January 29, 2009, 10:15:38 AM
@all
here is an experiment i am doing using a very large toroid wound 4 20 t = 80 turns . battery is .90 volts it was drawing 11ma lighting all 4 leds . i put a capacitor across the pot i am using to adjust the Bias to base of germanium transistor and the current dropped to less than 3 ma doing the same job of lighting all 4 leds bright So now i have 4 leds running at 2.85 ma with a dead battery .just by adding a capacitor in this circuit .I can adjust the current draw to 1 ma and all 4 leds are lit approx 20 % bright . Very Interesting . I don't know of anyone who has a circuit that can light 4 white leds bright at less than 3 ma ???

Gadgetmai,

I have a couple of questions about this - not about the cap, but the coils.

Do they reverse at the 1/2 way mark? I can't tell from the pic. I think on this one you might have said it was center tapped, but not in the text of the page (p 200)

The other thing. Your circuit only draws 11 mA. The thing I kept noticing with the circuit was that there was about 23 mA draw no matter how many leds were being lit off the secondary.

So, I assume you will see the same effect. But your string is only drawing 11mA. I think your circuit is way more efficiect or powerful at less draw. I don't have a big toroid like yours, but I want to make a copy to find out what in your circuit has made it draw only 11mA?

the PNP?
the germanium?
The large diameter?
The 40 turns?

that is 4 things I can ask about. I guess the question about how you wound them is another.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 01, 2009, 01:17:11 AM

@ gadgetmall
Nice circuit there, now lets see, you have what I think are 2 identical oscillators, the juice arrives at C3, which is refined by R3, the output Hz - frequency, is fed into another identical circuit, the output goes via to the base ot T1, the collector now hits the torrid with frequency.

The 30 turn coil now picks up the collapsing magnetic field, and the "juice" is sent to the LEDs

Your circuit I think, but not sure is a beat frequency oscillator.

One frequency is beating against the other frequency.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 01, 2009, 01:41:29 AM

@ Gadgetmall
I got it, your riddle, ha ha good one.

Answer, his horses name is friday, as you said in the post, ie he rode in on friday.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 01, 2009, 02:04:32 AM

@ gadgetmall
kc and mc
OK is kc = kilo cycles and mc = mega cycles

why were the old terminology done away with, I can remember the radio announcer in the late 50s announcing the transmitter (shortwave) frequencies were such and such kilo cycles and megacycles, transmitting on such and such meter band.

Tesla and stubblefield and monay all worked in cycles, not this Hertz rubbish lol.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 01, 2009, 02:20:58 AM

@ slayer007
Your circuit you posted, could you make it a tiny bit smaller please?
the circuit wires look at my place like they have huge breakes and connected to odds and ends.
Try adjusting the resolution of the camera, make it smaller, say 640 by 320 for starters.

Well done effort wise.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 01, 2009, 02:29:59 AM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on January 31, 2009, 11:21:26 PM
just my observation but unless my calculations are wrong i can run a led at full brightness for 7.5 days.

2700mah rechargable nimh / 15mah jt draw / 24 hours in a day = 7.5 days.

now my only question is how much are we getting off those PV garden lights? can u say never ending light?

let me run this scenario by you, take a electrical outlet, restrict the flow with a RF choke and adjust the voltage/amp so that we have 1.2 @ 15mah now we can use this to keep AA charged and in the event wall power is severed you have emergency light!

Hi . you are Missing post .We have a new Circuit which surpasses anything So far as current draw :) 0.202 ma per led . lets see 1.2 volt Ni-mh 2400 mah = 11881 hours run time or 495 days run time for a single Led on the FJLP circuit . Is my math right : Could someone check me on this ?
* Assumptions:
* Battery stored current is 2400 mAh fully Charged
I = 2400 mAh
* LED draws .202 mA of current
C = 0.202 mA
The calculation is simple division.
I Ã· C = T
2400 mAh Ã· 0.202 mA = 11881 hours / 24 = 495 days
You missed alot since that post Here is the new Circuit That i Claim as Mine and Jeanna's Hybrid . Nothing like it on the internet in public Domain ! http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg154173#msg154173 post #2095

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: flathunter on February 01, 2009, 02:30:02 AM

Quote from: jeanna on February 01, 2009, 12:36:40 AM
Gadgetmai,

I have a couple of questions about this - not about the cap, but the coils.

Do they reverse at the 1/2 way mark? I can't tell from the pic. I think on this one you might have said it was center tapped, but not in the text of the page (p 200)

The other thing. Your circuit only draws 11 mA. The thing I kept noticing with the circuit was that there was about 23 mA draw no matter how many leds were being lit off the secondary.

So, I assume you will see the same effect. But your string is only drawing 11mA. I think your circuit is way more efficiect or powerful at less draw. I don't have a big toroid like yours, but I want to make a copy to find out what in your circuit has made it draw only 11mA?

the PNP?
the germanium?
The large diameter?
The 40 turns?

that is 4 things I can ask about. I guess the question about how you wound them is another.

thank you,

jeanna

I found exactly the same thing with both my JTs. They both draw 0.02 amps, no matter how many LEDS I stack, using an AAA battery. I'm running 35 leds off one joule thief, then hooking another up in parallel to that and running a few more. They're getting dimmer of course, the more I stack, but the first 3 LEDs that I got coming off the second JT seem quite bright in comparison to the first 35. Tonight, i'll try whacking some more on...

Well done to all of you who've got motors running and CFLs lighting off this circuit. I envy you, and will be replicating as soon as possible!

Cheers Gadgetmall for reminding me that to measure current, you just put the multimetre in series with the battery ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 01, 2009, 02:37:21 AM

@ Bill

Flashlights and batteries
You asked why the companies dont put the JT into the flash lights, its because they just don't care about efficiency, battery wize.
If they can get you to go and buy a battery, the battery company loves the torch company, as more batteries need to be bought to run the inefficient torch.

There are more dollars to be made that way, does the company making the batteries care, no, not them, the more we all buy the better they like it.
Now, if the production of batteries fell, because of the JT, hmmmmmm I think they woiuldn't like their bottum line being affected, it all comes down to money.

Roll on the JT ha ha.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 01, 2009, 02:39:32 AM

Quote from: jeanna on February 01, 2009, 12:07:21 AM
Hi everybody,
Last week I dug my old iMac out of a box and as of today I have a working running debian linux system!!! Whew. well, a few things are running right. I still have challenges, but I am so pleased.

@Gadgetmail, I noticed, finally!, that you are using a PNP transistor. I bought a few of those a couple of years ago but never used them. Is there some reason that you use PNP? or is it because it is a germanium transistor that you use it?

jeanna

Jeanna I have a newer Circuit look here . .202ma total .81 for 4 leds Its yours and Mine a hybrid http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg154173#msg154173 Pm me for the SECRET !

@electricme . your right kc kilo thousand cycles mc mega million cycles American terminology Hertz European same thing . Pm me for the SeCRET !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Freezer on February 01, 2009, 06:38:14 AM

Quote from: xee2 on January 31, 2009, 07:09:04 PM
@ Freezer

Another great video. Thanks. Is the coil air core? If the fluorescent tube won't light with 1.5 volts try 3.0 volts. It looks like your components will take 3 volts and that would show how close you are (I think tube will light with 3 volts).

How many turns on coil?

Yes the coil is an aircore, although I use a axially magnetized cylindrical magnet and it fits perfect inside, and this can give you slight tuning capability and an audible feedback, like a speaker. Cores seem to hinder the performance. I tried a soft iron core, and it almost put it out. I didn't count the number of turns, I wound about 9 layers of bifilar 22, and 24, and perhaps about 7 or 8 layers of a third coil of 22. So you want a the 3rd coil to be longest to step up the voltage. The coil form I'm using is about 2" wide by 2/1/16".

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 01, 2009, 08:37:35 AM

Sorry about the last picture.
I hope this one is better.

I noticed on the second coil you can allso unhook it from the collector and just have the power and base hooked up.
And it still speeds up and puts more power out but when its all hooked up it puts out a lot more power.
But it allso uses a lot more to just have to try to find a sweet spot.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 01, 2009, 09:43:39 AM

i resized your pic slayer

im gonna repost it

im gone to find bobbins ;D

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 01, 2009, 10:02:47 AM

@all

I promised to post a schematic today:
It is of my pulse motor running on a 7 bifilar turns joule thief.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 01, 2009, 11:14:46 AM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on February 01, 2009, 10:02:47 AM
@all

I promised to post a schematic today:
It is of my pulse motor running on a 7 bifilar turns joule thief.

Jesus

.COOL ! HMMM you know it should be easy to feedback this one :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 01, 2009, 11:28:25 AM

well walmart ...

i found plastic bobbins and steel ones

i got 36 steel ones ...

and 24 plastic ones ..

im gonna wind them soon

i am wondering the diffrance between steel and plastic ... i bought some more pipe strap and some soft steel bolts ...

i also have some nylon bolts... so if i can find a plastic ring i may do an all plastis unit and a all steel unit

aiming for 12 coil ring 24 coil ring and 36 coils... ring ;D

THE SG SERIES... ;)

ist!

if you like the SG SERIES .... ;D your gonna love the GS SERIES ;) :)

putting this down public... GS = GOLDEN SPIREL

IST'S GS BOBBON JT PANCAKE COIL ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 01, 2009, 12:42:41 PM

Nice IST

You could even use a sewing machine to wind them.
That would save you some time. ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 01, 2009, 12:45:00 PM

heres an IDEA OF WHAT IM UP TO 8)

1 pulse i get 12 rotations from my 36 coil unit ..... :o

OMG.... WHAT ...

lol

EVEN A WEEK FEILD SPUN FAST... IS LOTS.... ;D

IST.....

i assembled the 36 coil steel bobbin unit ... it mesures exactly 17" ;D :o 8)

so guys ...gadget... i want to use your jt config on the coils....

slayer007 ... i want to use your secondairs .... ;D then we will do my trick .... ;D

lets pump it :) the outputs from 36 jt hemf and secondaries will be ganged as 1 output then sent through the GENERATOR WINDINGS ..

TO ACCELERATE IT ;D

coffee time agin .... ;D

so i will pick up some COPPER PIPE STRAP

there will be 2 coils of this in here too ;D single turn for current ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 01, 2009, 01:27:03 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on February 01, 2009, 11:14:46 AM
.COOL ! HMMM you know it should be easy to feedback this one :)

That is the answer I am looking for. This feedback problem has cost me a small fortune.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Light on February 01, 2009, 02:48:45 PM

â€œThat is the answer I am looking for. This feedback problem has cost me a small fortune.
- Agree; the same here.
It will stay a toy forever till another system will be involved. And thatâ€™s exactly what Richard did, he used oscillation circuit for triggering the back emf system (feedback) which gives enough power (juice) to charge bttry and give some more to load.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 01, 2009, 03:46:23 PM

Quote from: Light on February 01, 2009, 02:48:45 PM
â€œThat is the answer I am looking for. This feedback problem has cost me a small fortune.
- Agree; the same here.
It will stay a toy forever till another system will be involved. And thatâ€™s exactly what Richard did, he used oscillation circuit for triggering the back emf system (feedback) which gives enough power (juice) to charge bttry and give some more to load.

good for him .....

lol

i hear he cant stop blowing sh!t up ........ LOL!!!!! ;D

damm silicon ..... :)

ist...

too bad you dont understand what i have showen lol

what is the relationship between copper magnetics and steel?

just standard generator action here ... POWERED BY A JOULE THIEF THAT NOW CONSUMES VERRY LITTLE ... ;)

i took a few pictures ...

what!?!?!?!?! plastics become magnetic at high freq....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 01, 2009, 04:07:43 PM

I have a quick question, because I see something bright!

My newest shipment ;) of various things came yesterday. more 3904's etc. I got a 2N2222 transistor housed in a small metal can. It looks like the one gadgedmail is using.

I know his is germanium. Is mine also when the housing is in the can?

I tried both ways, and the first way, no lights, but the other way around it became REALLY bright. I have some other 2222's and when I tried one of them the light was very dim. It/they were all housed in the little plastic half can.

Does anybody know if the housing says it is germanium?

=====
@Gadgetmail,

I also tried the only PNP transistor I have in the same ckt and there was no light either way.. :( so, I am still curious about your PNP transistor...

More later, but I wanted to get the answer on this germanium question now if I can.

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Light on February 01, 2009, 04:12:06 PM

You shown nothing yet, but â€œhimâ€ did ;D.

It â€œconsumed a littleâ€ only because it needs a little; u canâ€™t beat a schoolâ€™s physic ;D; â€œhimâ€ didâ€¦

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 01, 2009, 04:24:29 PM

@Jeanna
No the metal can is just a different package . I have Lots of silicon Transistors that are "Canned" Look up the number on the transistor to be sure . If you need one (Germanium ) Give me a Pm . Also i used the PNP germanium because it had High gain for this circuit . I haven't tried to replace it yet but i am in the process of Building one more and getting read to solder it up . I should know in a little while if the .20ma is good on silicon too ...

@ist . Wow .. Answer What Is a TPU . ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 01, 2009, 04:44:31 PM

@all

You need to see that! http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/tripole.htm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 01, 2009, 04:55:14 PM

@all

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 01, 2009, 04:59:40 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on February 01, 2009, 04:24:29 PM
@Jeanna
No the metal can is just a different package . I have Lots of silicon Transistors that are "Canned" Look up the number

OK,
I guess it started with the number 2N2222 this one also has A so it is 2N2222A.
Thanks for that quick reply.

Thanks for the offer on the transistor. Maybe, but if these are hard to get, I want to keep going for the easy to get and easy to assemble unit for people to put together simply and by themselves.
========

Here is a little more to compare the 2 transistors. Someone asked this about 10 pages ago. I popped in the black one I had and it nearly killed the light in the ckt. But this is very bright. Maybe the other was shot. I could toss it or sequester it.

OK

I put this in a new circuit I am working on. Same circuit, different jt. My toroids until the others arrive are too small to fit many secondary loops, so I am still in single loop mode. This jt is wound with only 6 bifilar turns and that takes one half of the ring. I figure if the mags in the ring move a little in one way the whole thing is moving, so it needn't be going all around to work. (thanks MK1 for that concept)

So, this jt is finished like the evilmadsci type but only wound 6 times instead of 11 and the total is then 12 loops, 6 each way. I made a 1 turn secondary using 24 gauge tele wire. I am using a 820r Resistor, battery at ~1.25V

With the N3904 transistor

the amperage draw of the whole circuit is 0.035A
and the rectified voltage on the secondary is 0.278V and 0.3V

With the 2N2222A transistor, (brighter)

the amperage draw of the whole circuit is 0.050A
and rectified voltage on the secondary is 0.328V, 0.332V

So, it seems to me that although this 2N2222A gives a brighter light, it does so at the usual cost in amps. However, it does also give a higher voltage on a 1 turn secondary.

I will try a few more things and get back later,
thank you,

jeanna

EDIT ADD wow willya look at that date? 1997 JLN labs... thank you! we're running to catch up!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 01, 2009, 05:08:35 PM

Quote from: Light on February 01, 2009, 04:12:06 PM
You shown nothing yet, but â€œhimâ€ did ;D.

It â€œconsumed a littleâ€ only because it needs a little; u canâ€™t beat a schoolâ€™s physic ;D; â€œhimâ€ didâ€¦

yep no need to beat anything ...

just REWTIRE EM ;D

IST

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Light on February 01, 2009, 05:19:45 PM

canâ€™t do it neither ;D no matter how u call it...

MK1, do you think it's really levitating?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 01, 2009, 05:35:04 PM

Quote from: Light on February 01, 2009, 05:19:45 PM

MK1, do you think it's really levitating?

@Light,
Naudin says it is NOT.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 01, 2009, 05:35:42 PM

@light

No, the plate has metal in but it could, If some kind of eddy flux (from the colliding vortex) it could respond to a plate, but its all in the freq like jt core or no core (plate or no plate) .

And don't disturb the harmony , please!

Keep the good work!

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 01, 2009, 07:17:24 PM

Quote from: Light on February 01, 2009, 05:19:45 PM
canâ€™t do it neither ;D no matter how u call it...

MK1, do you think it's really levitating?

"My Moebius coil is NOT levitating itself, in the picture this is only the copper wire which maintains the coil. I have used this setup for testing the "eventual" thrust generated. The interesting thing is that the Moebius coil is ALWAYS attracted by a grad-B field when the current flow, even if I change the current flow direction. Thus the Moebius coil can interact with the Earth magnetic field."

The above is quoted from the website.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 01, 2009, 07:19:31 PM

Quote from: Light on February 01, 2009, 02:48:45 PM
â€œThat is the answer I am looking for. This feedback problem has cost me a small fortune.
- Agree; the same here.
It will stay a toy forever till another system will be involved. And thatâ€™s exactly what Richard did, he used oscillation circuit for triggering the back emf system (feedback) which gives enough power (juice) to charge bttry and give some more to load.

Thanks light!
Do you have a schematic of what he did?

By the way. In order to make a quote you put the word quote between these brackets [] on top of what you want to quote. To close the quote you put the word quote with a backlash in front and between brackets /quote.
An example follows.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Light on February 01, 2009, 07:41:01 PM

Harmony â€" itâ€™s when everybody sharing, not playing â€œdumb godsâ€...

Thks Bill, I believe itâ€™s like this mebius turning in planetsâ€™ magfield:
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=632OPQGYQIw
Very interesting approach (â€œâ€¦cylindrical capacitor does not turn, but capacitor on the base of mebius coil doesâ€¦â€).

Thks, niev, will do. Schematic in process; does not make sense to discuss it if it's not proven yet by model.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 01, 2009, 08:32:01 PM

This thread had gone off topic so many times...

The "tripole" winding..or mobius winding is just a coil wond half in one direction, half in the other - it's like putting two magnets in opposition. For those of you who don't already know.

I don't know why naudin chose to wind it like he did, i think it's called a half-hitch chain in sewing terms. this creates the 'tripole' effect, yes, but it also creates two longitudinal vectors opposing one another linearly along one side and not another, the bfields are screwy in this setup.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 01, 2009, 08:35:29 PM

@Jeanna
Just to report that Silicon Transistors work FIne On the FJLP Circuit . !! Maybe even Better .. More Test ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 01, 2009, 08:40:18 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 01, 2009, 04:55:14 PM
@all

This is funny . What do you think the polarity's are series or parallel / probable parallel i think .
er this is for your picture of two batteries

how Many People Like Politicians ? How mant People like Thread Politics ? Very Distracting !

And Speaking Of Mobius yall . THAT WAS MY SECRET ;D Coil is Wound in two Direction which is producing more voltage for less input current .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 01, 2009, 09:31:01 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on February 01, 2009, 08:35:29 PM
@Jeanna
Just to report that Silicon Transistors work FIne On the FJLP Circuit . !! Maybe even Better .. More Test ..

Oh, that is very good news, since they are so much more available.
Thanks a lot for checking this,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 01, 2009, 09:39:03 PM

@gagetmall

http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Chapter5.pdf

Page 7

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 01, 2009, 09:48:31 PM

@ All:

Sorry I have not been here much.

I just saw this on metacafe: http://www.metacafe.com/watch/2368671/sugar_and_sulfuric_acid/

Sulfuric acid and suger produces h2o (steam) and a tower of pure carbon!!!! This might be a cheap way for me to get larger carbon blocks for the earth battery component for JT circuit experiments in the spring. I know very little about chemistry but this is cool. Thought some of you might like to see it.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 01, 2009, 10:04:46 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 01, 2009, 09:48:31 PM
@ All:

Sorry I have not been here much.

I just saw this on metacafe: http://www.metacafe.com/watch/2368671/sugar_and_sulfuric_acid/

Sulfuric acid and suger produces h2o (steam) and a tower of pure carbon!!!! This might be a cheap way for me to get larger carbon blocks for the earth battery component for JT circuit experiments in the spring. I know very little about chemistry but this is cool. Thought some of you might like to see it.

Bill

WOW . good Find . I'll Dump Sugar in those Bad Golf Cart Batteries :) Just Kidding .. Wonder if its Cheaper than carbon Welding Rods ? Hey you know that Copper will peal off and it makes a good solder connection . I got some the other day and they are killer .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 01, 2009, 10:33:50 PM

@ Gadgetmall:

Thanks. It looks to be kind of porous but maybe it could be compacted into a good solid rod shape? Maybe a pvc tube and a broom handle ram? It should be pretty cheap to make I think. The only thing about the copper on the welding rods, to me, it adding another metal into the mix. you may end up getting some electrolysis or deterioration at the point of contact of the dissimilar metals. I don't know this to be a fact, I was just concerned about it. Plus, those rods are NOT available in my area as I had looked for a long time. If I had found some, I would have banded them together and used them.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 01, 2009, 11:37:46 PM

@ anyone interested

some test results - see attached.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 01, 2009, 11:50:35 PM

@xee2
excellent,

500K and 10/40 turns. mmm that is nice and interesting

Have you tried a secondary? 1 or 2 turns might light it up very brightly... ;)

Very nice.

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 02, 2009, 12:00:16 AM

@ jeanna

No, that is all I have done so far.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 02, 2009, 12:01:51 AM

@xee2
Good Job. IF you have one TRY a pot in series with your resistor and move the lil cap across the outer legs of the pot then use the middle leg and one outside leg . I have tried it with just resistors and did not get the effect of less current more light . DID you Notice the increase In power when you put the other cap in parallel to the Battery ?Also it seems to matter if you wound in series one wire or two twisted .. i assume you went with one wire being you have odd windings .
Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 02, 2009, 12:49:48 AM

@ gadgetmall

This circuit should have a cap across the battery. That way the cap can charge up slowly at low current between the pulses when the transistor is on. That is why the battery current is low. The cap charges up slowly and then the energy is released quickly when the transistor pulses on. But if the battery can supply the peak current for the pulses, then the cap is not needed. The advantage of the circuit is that it can work from batteries that are not able to supply much current. The AAA battery I am using can supply over 1 amp so the battery cap is not really needed with it, but I put it in because I feel it is a key part of the design.

I think the way I have the base resistor and capacitor connected is best. But, then everyone has their own preferences. Thanks for coming up with the idea of adding the capacitor. It is a great way to reduce the current required from the battery.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Light on February 02, 2009, 12:51:19 AM

Guys, itâ€™s not a point, we can get any HV from it, depending of gauge of wire, turns and capacitors, (see attach). Even put bunch of coils on it and get motors, but it just split the voltage.
But real challenge here to get amperage. Probably using another transformer, or spark gap, or breaker. At least thatâ€™s what I'm trying to get.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 02, 2009, 01:05:27 AM

@ Light

I think maybe you are missing the point. Adding the base cap allows the circuit to light LEDs from simple home made batteries,such as a nail and copper wire in a glass of salt water.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Light on February 02, 2009, 01:11:48 AM

But not getting the HV.
OK, it useless; playing alone.
Good luck...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 02, 2009, 01:43:32 AM

@all

I made research on magnetic amplifier

Quote"
The mag amp is a "magnetic field" kind of amplifier and is of Class H type.

Visually a mag amp device may resemble a transformer but the operating principle is quite different from a transformer - essentially the mag amp is a saturable reactor. It makes use of magnetic saturation of the core, a non-linear property of a certain class of transformer cores. For controlled saturation characteristics the magnetic amplifier employs core materials that have been designed to have a specific B-H curve shape that is highly rectangular, in contrast to the slowly tapering B-H curve of softly saturating core materials that are often used in normal transformers.

The typical magnetic amplifier consists of two physically separate but similar transformer magnetic cores, each of which has two windings - a control winding and an AC winding. A small DC current from a low impedance source is fed into the series-connected control windings. An AC voltage is fed into one AC winding, with the other AC winding connected to the load. The AC windings may be connected either in series or in parallel, the configurations resulting in different types of mag amps. The amount of control current fed into the control winding sets the point in the AC winding waveform at which either core will saturate. In saturation, the AC winding on the saturated core will go from a high impedance state ("off") into a very low impedance state ("on") - that is, the control current controls at which voltage the mag amp switches "on".

A relatively small DC current on the control winding is able to control or switch large AC currents on the AC windings. This results in current amplification."

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_amplifier

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 02, 2009, 01:48:57 AM

I tried a germanium transistor and I needed to change the base resistor to 50K in order to get it to work as well and the battery current went up to 4.6 mA. Germanium should be better since it will work from lower battery voltages, but this transistor does not work as well as the silicon transistor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 02, 2009, 02:07:25 AM

@ Light

I am primarily interested in high voltage also. But there are many areas to explore. For HV I suggest putting a step up transformer on the Fuji board output.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 02, 2009, 02:18:02 AM

Xee2,

I am curious about this. When MK1 first described this cap idea, I immediately stuck a .1uF cap in parallel with that base resistor, and the lights off the secondary went dim. They were still on, but barely. Then you made the response that the cap should have a low value to work in that spot.

I will use this as an exercise to understand caps a little better, so I want to be sure of my thinking.

Right now, I should find a lower value for the base resistor cap, and then add another one in what looks to me as across the battery. On the breadboard, that would be one pin in each battery strip.

That one can be a higher value. Yours is much higher than mine.

Also, please describe which type of capacitor to use in these places.

Thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 02, 2009, 02:34:31 AM

@ Jeanna:

I have been putting all of my caps in the power strip on the breadboard. I have not tried any on the base yet but I will try that when I can.

@ Mark:

Man, those two coils sound like they work like a transistor. That is amazing. They could have been using those instead of tubes prior to the silicon transistor. Unreal.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 02, 2009, 02:52:42 AM

@ jeanna

The cap across the battery should be at least 0.01 uF. If it is an electrolytic then be sure to put the side with the strip to the negative battery terminal. I am using a 10 uF battery cap because that is all I had handy. It does not need to be that large. If you use a larger cap it may take a short time for it to charge up before the circuit will work. The base cap is a good way to get more voltage out with a small battery current. It does not produce an output with more power. The LED is actually only on for a short time during each cycle (it is blinking very fast). The power savings comes from the LED being off most of the time. When you added the cap across the base resistor it caused to circuit to only be on for a short time during each cycle and less power was delivered to the secondary (and less power was taken from the battery). The base capacitor should allow you to get a larger output voltage from the secondary with a small battery current. Do not put a capacitor across the secondary leads or you will drop the higher voltage created. Using the base capacitor should allow you to have your LEDs look as bright but run much longer from the battery.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on February 02, 2009, 08:29:24 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 02, 2009, 02:34:31 AM
@ Mark:

Man, those two coils sound like they work like a transistor. That is amazing. They could have been using those instead of tubes prior to the silicon transistor. Unreal.

I'm not sure but didn't they? Isn't that one of the uses of "magnetic spark quenching"? Well, not necessarily, I admit, but I seem to recall they did use
something like this to either block currents from jumping a spark gap or assisting them in jumping the gap... Or am I confused again? lol ;)

Well anyway, after all the interesting posts you guys put up here, I'll really have to build myself one too! ;D
So, anyone got advice, which is the most efficient/effective setup so far?

Regards!
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 02, 2009, 08:50:08 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 02, 2009, 01:43:32 AM
@all

I made research on magnetic amplifier

Quote"
The mag amp is a "magnetic field" kind of amplifier and is of Class H type.

Visually a mag amp device may resemble a transformer but the operating principle is quite different from a transformer - essentially the mag amp is a saturable reactor. It makes use of magnetic saturation of the core, a non-linear property of a certain class of transformer cores. For controlled saturation characteristics the magnetic amplifier employs core materials that have been designed to have a specific B-H curve shape that is highly rectangular, in contrast to the slowly tapering B-H curve of softly saturating core materials that are often used in normal transformers.

The typical magnetic amplifier consists of two physically separate but similar transformer magnetic cores, each of which has two windings - a control winding and an AC winding. A small DC current from a low impedance source is fed into the series-connected control windings. An AC voltage is fed into one AC winding, with the other AC winding connected to the load. The AC windings may be connected either in series or in parallel, the configurations resulting in different types of mag amps. The amount of control current fed into the control winding sets the point in the AC winding waveform at which either core will saturate. In saturation, the AC winding on the saturated core will go from a high impedance state ("off") into a very low impedance state ("on") - that is, the control current controls at which voltage the mag amp switches "on".

A relatively small DC current on the control winding is able to control or switch large AC currents on the AC windings. This results in current amplification."

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_amplifier

Hi . ok see if i have this right . we make two toroids . wind them serial with the primary- Power that from lest say a Jt which supply the Dc pulses then wind the secondary serial but either wire the two either series or parallel to each other and power that with say a 555 timer set up to produce a Square wave . Will that work ? With a Jt Circuit that will only Draw a Variable Current draw of say .20 to 3 ma Leaving some extra 10 ma to power the 555 timer ?If so i will start on the 555 timer . I think the only other way to get AC would be a using a few transistors to build an astable multi vibrator, Correct ?
AL

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on February 02, 2009, 09:15:33 AM

@ All

Congratulations to all on your concerted efforts on this thread.

Been watching this thread for awhile and noticed that there are a lot of variations on the circuits so here's one without electronics for you all.

This is using a joke buzzer that gives you quite a jolt btw, I used it to light an NE2 bulb. I took out the 3 button cells and ran it from a 1.2 V AA battery, I even had it going through a bridge rectifier which would charge a capacitor to over 100 VDC then another NE2 across that cap would bleed the charge back down to 82 VDC and start all over again.

I didn't try lighting LED's because of the high voltage :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 02, 2009, 09:23:14 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 01, 2009, 09:48:31 PM
@ All:

Sorry I have not been here much.

I just saw this on metacafe: http://www.metacafe.com/watch/2368671/sugar_and_sulfuric_acid/

Sulfuric acid and suger produces h2o (steam) and a tower of pure carbon!!!! This might be a cheap way for me to get larger carbon blocks for the earth battery component for JT circuit experiments in the spring. I know very little about chemistry but this is cool. Thought some of you might like to see it.

Bill

Fascinating, but this reaction doesn't take into account the whereabouts of the sulfur, now does it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 02, 2009, 09:56:35 AM

@ Mk1

Would this Be a Start ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 02, 2009, 10:19:34 AM

@all

Congratulations for the joule thief improvements achieved till now.

I only have a photo of my joule thief running a pulse motor with the rotor stopped and giving 19 volts as output.
Not much but it is strange because it only gives 4.74 volts while running.

On the photo appears with the @slayer007 idea of two toroids but it does the same with just one toroid coil.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 02, 2009, 11:09:26 AM

well guys...

i have been working hard on my coil...

a while back jenna made a suggestion or asked a question .. if i was powering through my cores .. the answer is no not in the orginal design ..

how ever im a bit lazzy .. so insted of pulse to rotation .... i may go with bang em all at once ... then i could use the core as ground

and run the whole thing from 1 3055 ..... i just need 1 trigger coil ... and i still could tap rotation from it just not 12 laps / pulse ...

CORRECTION YES I CAN MAKE 12 LAPS AND GROUND THE CORE LOL DUH WHAT WAS I THINKING ..... THINKING LAZY LOL AND STILL USE 1 3055 8)

you guys decide how i build it ...

IT DOES NOT MATTER TO ME ..... IM OVER 160 RINGS NOW ...

THIS IS YOUR RING .... :)

i got like 20 more to build yet ...

ill post a pic ... got all the little guys wound mounted got a heavy gage pickup pancake coil 2 turns bifillar then neos then a steel band on the inside ...

was gonna incase this thing in plastic...

then wind a transformer round the whole thing ... then pulse it ... use the young effect ... so SPIN IS FREE..... HENCE OUTPUT ASWELL .....

~~~~~~IST!~~~~~~~

drop jennas / gm's jt on input side ... ;D

gm .... how well does your unit charge a BIGGGGGGG CAPPPPPP ;D 8)....

yes my next ring will have no steel in it and will be built for high frequency ;D PLASTIC / MAGNETIC EFFECT :) or is that MAGNETIC PLASTIC :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 02, 2009, 03:10:24 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on February 02, 2009, 11:09:26 AM
Welll William .. I will Check . I have not tried to Charge with it But I will and LYK

Looks Like a Nice Setup .. Hey Build one of those Mag Amp Coils . I'll work on a Circuit ..
@Nieves

Hmmm . Well i know you could Charge another battery up with that hanging BEMF diode for sure huh ?Then make a Switcher out of a 555 Timer for a set switched time . .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 02, 2009, 03:30:02 PM

@gadgetmall

Been trying to figure out the new circuit and found that there is no real connection between the toroid coil and the transistor.
Would you be so kind as to clarify this connections?

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 02, 2009, 04:08:05 PM

mag amp 2 toroide ...

ill whip 1 up

right now how many turns do you want on it 22 ga ok ?

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 02, 2009, 04:21:46 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on February 02, 2009, 03:30:02 PM
@gadgetmall

Been trying to figure out the new circuit and found that there is no real connection between the toroid coil and the transistor.
Would you be so kind as to clarify this connections?

?

Jesus
[/quote/] . sorry

@Ist
22 is what i woule use too..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 02, 2009, 04:38:48 PM

More test results. It looks like with a 5K base resistor the circuit should be able to light up 20 to 40 LEDs in series while using only 4 mA of current from battery. The LEDs would be put in place of the voltmeter.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on February 02, 2009, 04:49:11 PM

nievesoliver
try force your motor to turn backward
you might have a supprising effect.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 02, 2009, 05:11:24 PM

@all

More info i found .on mag amp , http://www.butlerwinding.com/elelectronic-transformer/mag-amp.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_amplifier

There is a book from 1951

"Magnetic Amplifiers by the U.S. Navy (1951), edited by Trinkaus. First came the vacuum tube, then the transistor, right?. Not really. In between there is another lost entity. Electronics engineers of the 1950's believed the rugged little magnetic amplifier was going to replace the fragile vacuum tube in all its functions under a megacycle. Originating in the USA but adopted and developed by the Nazis for the V2 missile, the mag amp after WWII found a clique of boosters among US electronics engineers. This document, unusually passionate and well written for a military tech manual, is their promotional brochure. Evident today only in some motor-control and power-supply regulator applications, the mag amp not only can regulate but can magnify, modulate, switch, pulse-generate, invert, convert, multivibrate, phase shift, and multiply. Mag amps require zero maintenance, can be made indestructible and EMP-proof, and can handle up to 200,000 amperes. Modulate your Tesla coil with a mag amp. This booklet has been completely reset and redesigned for economy and readability. 43 illustrations."

from http://www.teslapress.com/catalog.html

@gadgetmall

It still new to me i will need to build it first to be of more help.

Thank everyone !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 02, 2009, 05:48:06 PM

Cool,

Now, the circle comes back to the beginning. George Trinkaus wrote the 2 booiks about Tesla (the coil, and other inventions) which so inspired me that I began to search for an understanding and a way to follow up on his work to give it freely to all... which has led me here.

I love it when this happens.

@Koen,

Welcome. This is a fun sandbox. It seems to get bigger every time someone else joins! So, com'on in and join the fun.

I would suggest (since you asked) that you get a torus (toroid) made of ferrite, and wind a simple joule thief. It is the basis for all that we are doing, so, you might as well have one or 2 or 3 of them lying around. Check out evilmadscientist.com for the instructions. Or did someone already post them? I or someone can get the good instructions to you if you cannot find them.

Once you have it set up - and using a breadboard might be a good idea, since we change things around a lot- take out the led and wind a secondary and light a few leds from just the secondary.

You will be filled with ideas and you will know where you want to go from there.

Again,

Welcome,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 02, 2009, 06:18:11 PM

@gadgetmall

Thanks You!
I will check if I can understand it and let you know.

Quote from: TheNOP on February 02, 2009, 04:49:11 PM
nievesoliver
try force your motor to turn backward
you might have a supprising effect.

I think that the only thing that needs to be done in order to force it to turn backward is to spin it backward initially. I may be wrong though.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 02, 2009, 06:49:02 PM

@gadgetmall

Pardon my ignorance. But there is still not continuity connection between the toroid coil and the transistor.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 02, 2009, 07:03:16 PM

Quote from: xee2 on February 02, 2009, 04:38:48 PM
More test results. It looks like with a 5K base resistor the circuit should be able to light up 20 to 40 LEDs in series while using only 4 mA of current from battery. The LEDs would be put in place of the voltmeter.

Hi . That is Why i put a Vr in there with a small Value resistor to protect the base . I adjust it because Each color or model of LED takes Different Voltage . What works for My led Might not work for others .. Needs a Continues Bias adj in my opinion :) But thats because i do a lot of testing to . once a value is attained i guess a solid one could be put in its place . Question . If i have a 680 pf across a variable resistor and use only wiper and one end will it adjust the capacitance too ? I have lots of Darlington's from the old power supplies . They Hook up the same Correct . I all ways used two xsistors . .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 02, 2009, 07:23:55 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on February 02, 2009, 06:49:02 PM
@gadgetmall

Pardon my ignorance. But there is still not continuity connection between the toroid coil and the transistor.

Jesus

I need new Glasses !!!!!!!! Its right now . I hope .!! . Every time i have it right on my computer and resize it its wrong when posted . I looked again and its right this time . SHEEEEEESH .... :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 02, 2009, 07:36:14 PM

@xee and @gadgetmail,
I am making what I can of the fusion ckt with the values of things I have. We have 2 or 3 different things going on at this time and I want to clear it up for myself, so please help correct me.

1- is a correction on this 680pF. This size rating is like the resistor color rating system only with numbers. The 6 is a real number and so is the 8 then the third number is the number of zeros and it is measured in picofarads. {680=68 picoFarad]

@jesus, please note this for your drawing for onlookers and history.

2 I have started by adding a 100pF ceramic cap across the base resistor. (it is marked 101 )
Oh yes the transistor is still the 3904 since it is consistent with my other numbers. and the base resistor is 820r and the toroid is 6bifilar turns

3-I put a 0.1uF and later a 22uF cap across the battery rails.

I have kept the 10r Resistor at the pos of battery. (to save on frizszled wires and frazzled nerves. ;)

I have 2 lights arrangements:
3 leds in the array activated by a 2 turn secondary
otherwize
1 led in the "normal" place for a joule thief ckt - because xee2 is making his ckt that way.

Some results:
array of 3 yellow LEDs at secondary
34mA draw into ckt (this is higher than without a cap)
.359v and .336V rectified in a 1 turn 2^o
.95v across battery cap cap value 0.1uF
.7v across 100pF || base resistor.

Then I moved the led into the regular joule thief place and read:
THE LIGHT IS BRIGHTER - QUITE BRIGHT

29mA draw through this ckt
1.00v at battery cap (.1uF)
.47v at base resistor || with 100pf cap
(these results look good)

Keeping the light in this place, I changed the battery cap to 22uF

34mA
.97v at battery cap (22uF)
.49v across base resistor || with 100pF cap

These results look different. Not as 'good'

Any thoughts? (I will make the base resistor a higher value than 820r and get back)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 02, 2009, 08:01:43 PM

@jeanna

Just not to forget that it is very important that everything should be perfectly well done.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 02, 2009, 08:07:08 PM

The small change from 820r at the base resistor to 1k and changing nothing else lowered the amp draw a bit to 31mA down from 34mA
The light is very bright in the regular joule thief position. and since the base voltage remains at .45 and the total voltage across the battery cap is .99, I think this is a good direction.

@jesus,
If you make a drawing, I will know if I have stated all this correctly and if it is understandable. Thank you.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 02, 2009, 08:10:47 PM

Quote from: jeanna on February 02, 2009, 08:07:08 PM
The small change from 820r at the base resistor to 1k and changing nothing else lowered the amp draw a bit to 31mA down from 34mA
The light is very bright in the regular joule thief position. and since the base voltage remains at .45 and the total voltage across the battery cap is .99, I think this is a good direction.

@jesus,
If you make a drawing, I will know if I have stated all this correctly and if it is understandable. Thank you.

jeanna

I am tired for today I will continue tomorow.

@all

In the meantime.

There are two videos that teach how to make a different toroid coil.
Anybody interested go to:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6728.msg154666#msg154666

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 02, 2009, 08:21:49 PM

@ gadgetmall

Quote from: gadgetmall on February 02, 2009, 07:03:16 PM
That is Why i put a Vr

A variable resistor is certainly easier to tweek for best performance. But I find fixed values are better to just get an idea of what the circuit is doing.

Quote from: gadgetmall on February 02, 2009, 07:03:16 PM
If i have a 680 pf across a variable resistor and use only wiper and one end will it adjust the capacitance too ?

I do not thinkd so. But I am not sure..

Quote from: gadgetmall on February 02, 2009, 07:03:16 PM
I have lots of Darlington's from the old power supplies . They Hook up the same Correct . I all ways used two xsistors . .

Yes. The Darlington has an emitter, base, and collector just like a single transistor. Maybe you can find one that works better than the one I bought. You seem to be doing better with the germaniums than I was able to do.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 02, 2009, 09:24:57 PM

@ jeanna

Capacitor codes are a pain. It seems that every manufacturer wants to do something different. In my experience a cap marked 680 is a 68 pF cap. Here are two links in case you do not already have them.

http://wiki.xtronics.com/index.php/Capacitor_codes

http://www.csgnetwork.com/capcodeinfo.html

I am still puzzling over your test results. I do not know if you have the parts, but if you do you might try using something around 5K for resistor and a 1000 pF for capacitor on the base as in my circuit. For me this only drained 4 mA from battery and provided 88 volts for an output which should light a lot of LEDs. How much the circuit is dependend on the toroid I do not know yet (future tests). It does seem that the transistor makes a difference in performance.

EDIT: I think your base resistor has too low a value. With a 1K base resistor I was using about 25 mA from the battery. So your results are not that different than mine. If you go to a 5K or higher resistor your battery current should drop.

EDIT 2: Your base cap may be too small also. If the cap is less than 1000 pF then the base resistor has to be even larger. I am not sure what best value for base casp is. !000 pF was just my first try.

EDIT 3: Toroid is critical. With R=10K I get 3 mA and 54 vots out with my test circuit toroid. With a different toroid with 20 turns and 20 turns I get 11 mA and 30 volts. Test toroid is 2" diam and 3/4" thick of unknown material (maybe laminated steel) and other toroid is 1" diam by 1" long of ferrite. Test toroid is from power supply and is coated with epoxy so it is not possible to see material it is made of.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 02, 2009, 11:23:05 PM

@all

Some more .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 02, 2009, 11:25:14 PM

@xee2 (mostly),

OK I got the amps down but the lights on the secondary are hard to see, and the light when it is in the jt is pretty dim too.

I did not have a 102 but I had a 103, so I used that and I had a 4.5k R (actual 4.6k) for the base so I used that
Also, I have a 47uF cap at the battery.

So, here it is.

Battery 1.3v
R to see amps at bat 9.5r
Cap at battery 47uF
Transistor N3904
Cap at base of transistor 103=10,000pF
Resistor at base of transistor= 4.6Kr

3 lights on a secondary array with a 2 turn secondary (but I checked rectified voltage with a 1 turn secondary - so I didn't go mad)
or
1 light in the usual joule thief spot
lights are yellow and show really well how dim they are when there is not much to light up with. ;)

At the battery
Amps grew a bit over time from .000842A to .00126A
Across 47uF cap across whole ckt=1.29v

At the transistor,
across light 1.30v
across the (10,000pF) base cap 1.17v

the secondary wire with a single turn .025v rectified... then I removed that 10r resistor at the battery just to see and the secondary wire with single turn returned .046v rectified.

Also, I checked the transistor itself
base to - bat 0.165v
base to +bat 1.14v

I guess that is all. It is pretty unimpressive. Maybe the big difference is in the transistor?

Do you have a N3904 that you could put into this and see?

Since your toroid is wound 10:40 I actually think that is making a big difference. These numbers may be right in line given the 6 turns bifilar on my toroid. It looked great without the caps, and I got more rectified voltage and it took a lot more amps! if I can remember back that far! ;D

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 02, 2009, 11:46:04 PM

@ jeanna

See my edit 3 above. I think it takes optimizing of transformer to get best performance. I do not know what works best but I think it is important to have lots of turns on the collector coil. The base coil does not need so many. I am sorry this is not working better for you but now you have a new challenge.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 03, 2009, 12:34:47 AM

i built the mag amp dubble toroide

does it look correct?

ist!

22ga

dc winding 16 turns x2

ac winding 17 turns x 2

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 03, 2009, 12:55:53 AM

@ist

I think you could go , more turns on the ac side like 1/3 dc , 2/3 ac , also since it take one wire for dc switching 2 toroid , the jt has 2 wire so 4 core would be nice , it would also mean 4 ac coils to rectify , also condensers are ac caps :o,

The jt is closer to a mag amps , then a regular transformer , they don't share the same property , interesting , are limitations the same?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 03, 2009, 12:56:52 AM

xee,
It is not that it is not working for me.

There are too many things that changed between what I have been working on and this newer set of ideas for me to know what made them better, indeed, to even know if they ARE better.

At one point today, I put a light in the jt ckt in the usual place (as your ckt is) and it was very bright. but it also used more amps. You have said that your ckt takes very little, but also that the light is dim. Maybe that is what I saw.

I will try with all these parts again with one of the other toroids whose properties I already checked out.

I will make some attempts to change only one thing at a time. First, I will get my order of toroids which has different kinds but also has 4 more like the ones I used for the MK1 and hybrid.

For instance, I will add only 1 cap at the base of the transistor. Already this is 2 parts different from what gadgetmail has because he has been using the PNP. So, I will make that work and check it out.

Then I will add a cap at the battery as you have done, and see what that does.

Then a second cap at the transistor base if nothing is yet improved over what I had before.

In all of this I will try a PNP which I did tonight too, and the 2222 and then I will wind one of the newer rings. One is twice as big as the others.

Thank you for all your help. I am sure I will be asking you dozens of more questions. I appreciate your ideas and advice.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 03, 2009, 01:18:27 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 03, 2009, 12:55:53 AM
@ist

I think you could go , more turns on the ac side like 1/3 dc , 2/3 ac , also since it take one wire for dc switching 2 toroid , the jt has 2 wire so 4 core would be nice , it would also mean 4 ac coils to rectify , also condensers are ac caps :o,

The jt is closer to a mag amps , then a regular transformer , they don't share the same property , interesting , are limitations the same?

ok bro ...

4 cores you got it ....

i will find 4 the same and i will make mods to my coils .. 1/3 2/3 .. dc ac ... but

b4 i do this do my windings look correct as well the wireing .. ?

ist!

ok so i will make 4 2 wound the way they are showen and 2 the exact oppsite..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 03, 2009, 01:18:33 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 03, 2009, 12:55:53 AM

The jt is closer to a mag amps , then a regular transformer , they don't share the same property , interesting , are limitations the same?

yeah, I think this is right.

What limitations are you referring to? I admit I didn't read all that page, I will go back and read it.

good find, btw. At first, I thought it was too far afield, then I realized it is really close to the jt.

It has been under our noses for so long! But now, we need to figure out how to mod all the electrical things in our lives to work on this high freq, low amps. mmmm more fun.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 03, 2009, 01:41:03 AM

@ jeanna

Changing one thing at a time is always best. But I think I have found the key to getting good performance. It seems to be the turns on the toroid. I do not know what the best turns numbers are, but it seems that toroids with similar turns have more similar performance than those that have different turns numbers.

For R=10K and base cap = 1000 pF

case 1: 2"x0.75" toroid >> collector coil = 40 turns & base coil = 10 turns >>> 3 mA and 54 volts (original test coil)

case 2: 1"x1" toroid >> collector coil = 36 turns & base coil = 9 turns >>> 3.5 mA and 51 volts

case 3: 1"x1" toroid >> collector coil = 20 turns & base coil = 20 turns >>> 11 mA and 30 volts

NOTE - case 1 and 2 have very different toroids but about the same turns and they have about equal performance

NOTE - case 2 and 3 have identical toroids but different turns and they have very different performance

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 03, 2009, 01:43:10 AM

@ist

The pictures are dark i can't see much. Sorry. But the good news is there is only 2 way to go.

@jeanna

The difference is one has a core that saturate and other doesn't .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 03, 2009, 02:08:16 AM

@ All:

I was reading in one of my electronics books again....yes, I know.....and at the end of the book, they spoke of a wound ferrite toroid for use in a power supply. They said it was like a choke but, under high power and high volts, to keep the ferrite from getting saturated, they cut a slot in the toroid. They said this slot could be only a few thousands of an inch wide, but it broke the circle and therefore the core could never reach the saturation point.

Now, I no longer have any of my diamond machine tools, but, I can probably rig a way with a few things I have to cut a slot in one of my toroids. (iron oxide is about 8.5 on the Mohs scale of relative hardness, diamond being 10, glass being 5.5) Does anyone think this might be a way to go here? If the core was never able to saturate, then we could feed it whatever we wanted and have no problems.

But, since we are only using an AA battery, maybe this would be a high performance mod that we do not need? I will have to study this in more detail but, I am just tossing this out there. Maybe this would allow the use of a heavier transistor like some here have been using without the additional amp (mA ) draw? I am really impressed by the work being done here and the information that is being exchanged. Once again, I am very proud just to be associated with you folks. Keep it up.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 03, 2009, 02:10:18 AM

@ jeanna

:( Boo. This is a bad idea. You should sick to what you were doing. I get high voltage but almost no current. I can not even light up one of my good LEDs. Bad idea. But nothing tried nothing learned. I am sorry for wasting your time.

It looks like something is damaged. Before LED lit brightly with 50K resistor and now it won't even light up. I am not sure what is wrong.

EDIT: :) Yeh. Problem was the LED was damaged. New LED lights brightly with 10K resistor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 03, 2009, 02:37:17 AM

awsome bill...

reminds me of this video i saw ...

from mit teck tv

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=Pl7KyVIJ1iE&feature=related

i have a few flyback cores round... 8)

also some feroite transformer cores .. might tackel em after thease 4 mag amps are built and working properly.

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 03, 2009, 03:17:38 AM

@ IST:

Thanks man!!! That is a great video! You are correct in that it demonstrated exactly what I read last night. The ring with the cut in it reacted much differently did it not? Again, this may or may not be useful to us....I really don't know.

I hope I live long enough to wind half as many cores as I have seen you wind here in the past few weeks. Your work is awesome, please keep it up and keep sharing. Thank you so much for your contributions to our topic here.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 03, 2009, 05:39:20 AM

@ Bill
Cutting a slott in a torid, I realise you have vast experience with cutting tools, however, would this work for you.

Make a ultra thin disk from a empty tin of baby food (eat the contents first yum), (remember the hot transister fix?)lol,
use a hole punch to make the disk from the lid, make the center hole by drill.

Mount it in a dremmel or high speed drill

Make up some rouge - water to be a lite grinding paste, then spin up the disk, feed the special past and see if it will grind a thin slott in the torid.

One can cut glass using this method.

Dont get your fingers close to the spinning disk, it will taker your fingers right off.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 03, 2009, 07:49:28 AM

@ Jeanna

@jim, this xo laptop thought your movie belonged to the sonic measuring program. I don't know how to tell it what program to open it in. I will watch your tiny video this weekend after my MAC gets back home.

Did you eventually get to see it?

@ all
Ive been cought up in household chores all last and this week, a never ending battle.
Been experimenting with a home made coil, Wound it on a empty solder plastic spool 500Gm.
l, wound one layer, go to the end, took the wire back to the beginning, and started the second layer. Did the same with all 8 layers.
Had to use copper, havent got iron insulated wire yet.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 03, 2009, 08:28:39 AM

@all

I am a little confused here with the new toroid windings.

@electricme

It is nice to see you again.

@gadgetmall
I could not get all the schematics out of post.
I will bother you no more with my insistence.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 03, 2009, 08:34:35 AM

@ALL

I have Not had Time today to look at all the Post YET But I want TO INFORM you That I have REDUCED The CURRENT DRAW ON THE FUGI BOARD TO 0.20 MA This was ON MY BOARD 1900 Ma . . There Is a 220 ohm resistor on the base I replaced it with a small 10k pot and added a cap on the circuit across the last leg of resistor to coil . It lights My 15 watt CLF Bright with ONLY 20 ma .. I am Running it now timing it with a 1.2 volt Ni cad ..see ya Later .!!! Here are the pics . Sorry about the Blur . Ill fix it later gotta run . Its School Award Time this Morn !!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Thaelin on February 03, 2009, 08:45:03 AM

Hi All:
The more I read of using this camera circuit, the more I wonder if all thoes
dead ones down at the as is store would have basically the the same thing.
I was out for a walk the other day and saw the remains of one along the road.
Further inspection shows the circuit board is the same and has the diode, cap
and such on it. I suspect that it is not as efficient as the continuous type but
then there for the pickings.
Even tho the thing was broken, still gave me the circuit to look over and I see
no diffs in it. Removing the parts and rewireing it will tell the story. Has the xformer
on it as well.

Thought I would share that with all. I am in the works to add JT driven FL tubes
in all of the places I can get away with. Many thanks for all here in sharing your
ideas and progress. I am going to help others here cut the electric bills by showing
them how to do this as well. Chow

@ Pirate
Spend the quality time with your friend, I had to put my baby to sleep last year and
I still miss her dearly. Just so empty here now. Hard to miss 118lb rottie.

thaelin

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 03, 2009, 08:55:27 AM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on February 03, 2009, 08:28:39 AM
@all

I am a little confused here with the new toroid windings.

@electricme

It is nice to see you again.

@gadgetmall
I could not get all the schematics out of post.
I will bother you no more with my insistence.

Jesus

@Nieves
Not A Bother Brother At All . I appreciate your Kind And persistent carefully consideration when checking these schematics . As i said before i just build em and am not that proficient in drawing them yet . Please keep up the Good Work . I want to Fix that Last Good one For Me PLEASE!!. Thanks And God Bless ..
Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 03, 2009, 10:31:13 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on February 03, 2009, 08:55:27 AM
@Nieves
Not A Bother Brother At All . I appreciate your Kind And persistent carefully consideration when checking these schematics . As i said before i just build em and am not that proficient in drawing them yet . Please keep up the Good Work . I want to Fix that Last Good one For Me PLEASE!!. Thanks And God Bless ..
Al

Here is the fixed graphic. I did not include @jeanna's recommendations. If you two agree on the same changes, just describe them as precise as possible and I will do the changes.

Jesus

Edit:

Quote from: jeanna
...
Please correct the 680pF to 68pF on those base caps.

The other thing I think is because there is a pictorial element to your schematics, the secondary is actually going through the center of the toroid, but the drawing shows it going around the whole thing. I tried it the other day, and I cannot honestly remember what the results were so I will do it again later, but the thing is that it is going through the center right now and in all the results posted so far. So, please would you make this change too?
...
jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on February 03, 2009, 10:43:05 AM

Quote from: jeanna on February 02, 2009, 05:48:06 PM
@Koen,

Welcome. This is a fun sandbox. It seems to get bigger every time someone else joins! So, com'on in and join the fun.

;D Thank you Jeanna :)
Yeah, it's quite busy over here and everyone seems to have some variation of a JT circuit they're playing with
so I think I'll join in the fun indeed ;)

QuoteI would suggest (since you asked) that you get a torus (toroid) made of ferrite, and wind a simple joule thief. It is the basis for all that we are doing, so, you might as well have one or 2 or 3 of them lying around. Check out evilmadscientist.com for the instructions. Or did someone already post them? I or someone can get the good instructions to you if you cannot find them.

There's quite a few how-to guides on the net so that's not really a problem. There's lots of youTube and other vidstream guides, and there's a few good
text descriptions too. I pulled one from "Instructables" the other day that seems to be fine. It's not really difficult anyway, just make sure you've
got the bifilar trafo, the 2N3904 transistor, the 1Kohm resistor, and the LED all wired correctly and off you go. :)
I have already ordered a bunch of ferrite ring cores, transistors and resistors so I should be able to build a few "classic" JTs next week.

And seeing that Bill has been lighting up 2 fluorescent tubes using a modified camera circuit, I decided to try that as well so I ripped
a disposable camera apart and am now looking at the circuit board... It looks almost identical to the board Bill showed me, the capacitor
is just a different shape but all the connections appear to be the same. I'm not entirely sure yet, as I have been told that it will only work
properly with a Fuji AA board that has a large 3-coil transformer with 6 connectors and I'm not sure if the trafo on my board qualifies as
such... Well, it's only a small step now to turn this into a JT so I'll just go and do that and then I'll see if the board was right I guess. ;)

For those interested, here is an "Instructables" step by step guide on how to turn an old Kodak disposable camera into a Joule Thief:
http://www.instructables.com/id/Create-a-Joule-Thief-LED-torch-or-nightlight-by-re
Mind you, what the guy does is really ripping everything that does not belong in the JT circuit off the camera board, then he pulls
apart the transformer and completely re-winds it using the familiar bifilar wind, then he's basically done with the trafo core what
most JT builders did with a ferrite toroid or bead, and then he hooks it up like a JT again.
This appears to be different from the Fuji camera approach, which does apparently not require dismantling and re-winding
of the transformer at all.. ?

Any more clarification would be appreciated, of course. :)

QuoteOnce you have it set up - and using a breadboard might be a good idea, since we change things around a lot- take out the led and wind a secondary and light a few leds from just the secondary.

Yeah that's the latest bend in the road isn't it? Getting more out by placing secondaries nearby? Now that's interesting. :)
I noticed IST's large ring-shaped setup there... Quite funky. So it's really getting power from the JT that is doing its thing in the middle there? Weird...

QuoteYou will be filled with ideas and you will know where you want to go from there.

Again,

Welcome,

jeanna

And again thank you very much for the welcome :)

Can't wait to get this old fluorescent tube lit up from a near dead battery ;D

Best regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 03, 2009, 10:58:22 AM

@All Ok Folks I got the Fugi Camera Circuit producing full power measure 1800 vdc using the trigger switch shorted . The total Current draw is 12 ma Now Below the public Domain Joule THief Using My Modifications on the page before this one. This Is amazing .one Circuit i did last night is still running 8 hours powering a CFL from a 1.25 Nicad . Still Showing 1.21 volts !!!!! YEA > Get to it these will give enuff power out now to run every light in the house and im guessing but 1000's of leds of a 1.2 volts battery

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 03, 2009, 11:03:01 AM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on February 03, 2009, 10:31:13 AM
Here is the fixed graphic. I did not include @jeanna's recommendations. If you two agree on the same changes, just describe them as precise as possible and I will do the changes.

Jesus

The Information is Correct for this Schematic Alone . Jeanna Is not using this Configuration ! OK so leave it as is and Lable is Fusionchip/with Jeanna Secondary . Number 2 LPJT . Ok when Jeanna Gets the new torroid and decides to wind one like this she can put her measurments ok . Thank You Jesus . You get those part Yet ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on February 03, 2009, 11:12:00 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on February 03, 2009, 10:58:22 AM
@All Ok Folks I got the Fugi Camera Circuit producing full power measure 1800 vdc using the trigger switch shorted . The total Current draw is 12 ma Now Below the public Domain Joule THief

Nice work :)

QuoteUsing My Modifications on the page before this one.

Ok, so that's this one? Quote: "There Is a 220 ohm resistor on the bas I replaced it with a small 10k pot and added a cap on the circuit across the last leg of resistor to coil ."
Sorry to start bugging you but the pics are very unclear, could you perhaps draw a little schematic if you have the time?
Thanks. :)

QuoteThis Is amazing .one Circuit i did last night is still running 8 hours powering a CFL from a 1.25 Nicad . Still Showing 1.21 volts !!!!! YEA > Get to it these will give enuff power out now to run every light in the house and im guessing but 1000's of leds of a 1.2 volts battery

Yeah that sure sounds good! :)
Keep up the good work!

Best regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 03, 2009, 11:51:58 AM

@ gadgetmall

Great work with Fuji board. You have really reduced the power required a lot.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 03, 2009, 11:55:53 AM

@ jenna

I suggest you try to duplicate gadgetmall Fuji board modifications. But if you want to continue with a self made circuit then this is how I added the LEDs.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 03, 2009, 12:39:31 PM

great work gadget ... ;D

i cant waite to build it .... 8)

i hope you put up a SIMPLE SCHEM

for everyone ...

im back at the mag amp coils ... gonna finish winding all 4 .. i will post a pic when i compleate it to confirm it is wound and wired correctly

i have bout 40 more cams to build with ... 8)

nice to see you take an intrest in this keon1 ;D

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 03, 2009, 01:45:55 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on February 03, 2009, 11:03:01 AM
The Information is Correct for this Schematic Alone . Jeanna Is not using this Configuration ! OK so leave it as is and Lable is Fusionchip/with Jeanna Secondary . Number 2 LPJT . Ok when Jeanna Gets the new torroid and decides to wind one like this she can put her measurments ok . Thank You Jesus . You get those part Yet ?

I have only received @pirate's fuji circuit with a slide switch.

@pirate
I tried it and it is the same as the one I made with the first neon bulb. The transformer is six legs but one leg has nothing on it, it is only a pin inserted on the plastic.
But at least I have it! Thank you @pirate.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 03, 2009, 01:48:19 PM

Quote from: Koen1 on February 03, 2009, 11:12:00 AM
Nice work :)Ok, so that's this one? Quote: "There Is a 220 ohm resistor on the bas I replaced it with a small 10k pot and added a cap on the circuit across the last leg of resistor to coil ."
Sorry to start bugging you but the pics are very unclear, could you perhaps draw a little schematic if you have the time?
Thanks. :)

Yeah that sure sounds good! :)
Keep up the good work!

Best regards,
Koen

Hi Thanks . No i wont be Drawing up a Circuit but if you have a Fugi board all you do is short out the Diode . Hook your lamp up to where the cap was .. look at the transformer on the component side. there is a small resistor there between the transistor . remove it and put your pot there or i have found that 3000 ohms works good , . Next turn the board over . trace the resistor to the coil connections . this is where the 68pf cap is soldered . Thats It ! I'll post a Clearer picture of the back in a little while . !! EDIT ITS POSTED CLearer . Also when using the resistor ion my third unit i built today i added a "Start"Switch . Its a small momentary pust to close connected across the resistor if your CLf or tube Will not light up bright to start with . When the batt reaches 1.1 volts or lower this is needed or either a variable. BTW My 13 watt CLF is still lit Batt is 1.17 .. I will let it run for another two hours then recharge the battery . . Number two has been running since 8 this morning CLF 45 watt thats 7 hours so far on that one :)) Much Better . I bet this will light 400 leds for a LONG time !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 03, 2009, 02:15:02 PM

Quote from: Goat on February 02, 2009, 09:15:33 AM
@ All

Congratulations to all on your concerted efforts on this thread.

Been watching this thread for awhile and noticed that there are a lot of variations on the circuits so here's one without electronics for you all.

This is using a joke buzzer that gives you quite a jolt btw, I used it to light an NE2 bulb. I took out the 3 button cells and ran it from a 1.2 V AA battery, I even had it going through a bridge rectifier which would charge a capacitor to over 100 VDC then another NE2 across that cap would bleed the charge back down to 82 VDC and start all over again.

I didn't try lighting LED's because of the high voltage :)

Nice . I wonder if your joy buzzer will power a MOT :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 03, 2009, 02:31:32 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on February 03, 2009, 02:15:02 PM
Nice . I wonder if your joy buzzer will power a MOT :)

oh ... lol i know it does ... and when IST'S NEOZAP is at play it gets wild .... :)

cheers ....

mag amps are almost done ... pics soon

ist

if this is correct i will build 4 more EXACTLY THE SAME ... but i will hook 4 up parelell and 4 up serial gonna need a bit of help with that ...

8)

also i matched primary to secondary all 22 gage wire 1/3 pri 2/3 secondary 14 turns primary ... 28 turns secondary

so what i was thinking with this unit is ... power this with a single jt ... but hook it up with the jt meaning include this in that curcuit just throw it in line with it 2 cores are for pulse coil and 2 for trigger coil ...

think it will work ?

so now i will wind a standard jt to power this unit ... i will make it 28 turns bifillar 22 gage

if it works out proper it should be 1to1 mass tuned

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 03, 2009, 03:31:42 PM

@ All
ok the first Fugi lighting 13 watt CFL DIED at 1.16 volts and ran for 12 and a half hours !

I can get it to go more by adjusting the pot but the current draw goes up to about 30 ma . I will put a fresh battery in it tonight .. I think it would run a string of LEDS much longer . Some one is going to have to drag out there Christmas Lights (Pirate ) and see :) Mine are packed up and unreachable until Christmas .. # 2 is running fine since 8 am this morning !..
I have a few different camera boards like the Kodak and some i got from gold mine(unknown ) . i'll play with them tonight and see if i can boost there performance .
For those that didn't read the post a few pages back have a look Back at them and you will know what i am talking about .L8r
Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 03, 2009, 03:36:21 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on February 03, 2009, 01:48:19 PM
Hi Thanks . No i wont be Drawing up a Circuit but if you have a Fugi board all you do is short out the Diode . Hook your lamp up to where the cap was .. look at the transformer on the component side. there is a small resistor there between the transistor . remove it and put your pot there or i have found that 3000 ohms works good , . Next turn the board over . trace the resistor to the coil connections . this is where the 68pf cap is soldered . Thats It ! I'll post a Clearer picture of the back in a little while . !! EDIT ITS POSTED CLearer . Also when using the resistor ion my third unit i built today i added a "Start"Switch . Its a small momentary pust to close connected across the resistor if your CLf or tube Will not light up bright to start with . When the batt reaches 1.1 volts or lower this is needed or either a variable. BTW My 13 watt CLF is still lit Batt is 1.17 .. I will let it run for another two hours then recharge the battery . . Number two has been running since 8 this morning CLF 45 watt thats 7 hours so far on that one :)) Much Better . I bet this will light 400 leds for a LONG time !

Gadgetmall:

Fantastic work!!! I think I understand everything you did except the cap. I did not see the cap in your photos unless you are speaking of a small electrolytic cap? Is that what I am seeing there? And this goes from the end of your pot down the path to the leg of the transformer right? Mine are wired to one leg of the trigger coil just for added mechanical bond but you say you are using the trigger coil as well? I was also thinking of doing that but I didn't think it would fire much as we removed the large cap.

Sorry for all of the questions but your modification would probably run my 400 leds for hours and hours and hours!!! Or, a 48" tube for a very long time as well. To me, this is very well inside the area of being "useful". This is actually practical and can be replicated and used by anyone. This is far better than any camping light, or home led lighting I have ever seen.!! Great great job.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 03, 2009, 03:43:21 PM

@ gadgetmall

Is this correct? Or should the cap go to the other end of pot?

EDIT: incorrect drawing deleted

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 03, 2009, 03:49:42 PM

@ist

Lest do the jt circuit first, then work the output coils.

I don't think you will be able to test it with a led in the regular jt way, it should not work but put a load or led on the out coils or rectify to adjust the base resistor to decent output.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 03, 2009, 03:54:40 PM

@Xee2:

I think he said the cap went between the pot and the leg of the transformer where the end of the resistor was going before removal. I believe this is correct.

I think I have to use another "new" board to replicate this as I have already removed everything on it that was not being used by the JT circuit idea. In other words, I don't think I have a path or completed circuit going to where the big cap used to be. I guess I could solder in little jumpers where the resistors I removed used to be.

This is a very good improvement he has made here.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 03, 2009, 04:15:19 PM

thank you MK1 . i knew i was doing some thing worng ;D.... lol

i will build that proper mag amp ... just after the GADGET!! lol

mag amp aside lets build THE GADGET !!!

;D ;D

lol

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 03, 2009, 04:34:26 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 03, 2009, 03:36:21 PM

Gadgetmall:

Fantastic work!!! I think I understand everything you did except the cap. I did not see the cap in your photos unless you are speaking of a small electrolytic cap? Is that what I am seeing there? And this goes from the end of your pot down the path to the leg of the transformer right? Mine are wired to one leg of the trigger coil just for added mechanical bond but you say you are using the trigger coil as well? I was also thinking of doing that but I didn't think it would fire much as we removed the large cap.

Sorry for all of the questions but your modification would probably run my 400 leds for hours and hours and hours!!! Or, a 48" tube for a very long time as well. To me, this is very well inside the area of being "useful". This is actually practical and can be replicated and used by anyone. This is far better than any camping light, or home led lighting I have ever seen.!! Great great job.

Bill

Hi Pirate

the first picture shows the Blue pot inbetween the transformer and the transistor
the second photo which i updated shows the little brown cap position .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 03, 2009, 04:41:09 PM

Quote from: xee2 on February 03, 2009, 03:43:21 PM
@ gadgetmall

Is this correct? Or should the cap go to the other end of pot?

EDIT : THAT IS CORRECT FOR THE FUGI I DID !! I was confused and did not read i just saw the picture and told you how i did the JT Which . the cap goes parallel to the outside legs or the resistor part . then i use the wiper and one end of the pot . .

You got it right . i cut one leg off the VR i added on the FUGI . Now as far as i can tell tracing the resistor it looks like i took the base and jumped it to the other side of the resistor and coil /transformer .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 03, 2009, 04:52:40 PM

@ gadgetmall

OK. Like this?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 03, 2009, 04:55:25 PM

Quote from: xee2 on February 03, 2009, 04:52:40 PM
@ gadgetmall

Like this?

haha we posted at the same time look up ! I Edited the answer .. Also i tried different capacitors . Some "short it or stop it some don't . and a Cap across the battery inthe FUGI circuit draws more current . Just an observation with the caps i have here . On a New FUGI board i only removed the Big Cap AND THE FLASH TUBE > thats it the rest of the components are still there .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 03, 2009, 04:59:22 PM

Hi everyone,

I think I have been in deep space or something.

@gadgetmail, Have all these discussions about the PNP and 68pF caps and other caps been about the fuji circuit?

No wonder I couldn't copy it. I was using a simple wound toroid and a 3904NPN to which I added a 100pF cap at the base...

Please clarify. My head is spinning with all the new ideas and posts today.

@xee2, When you said bad idea etc... what was the bad idea, please?

@All,
I got my order of toroids, and also a thing 3/$1 that goldmine called high voltage board which is a stripped camera ckt which seems to have a big transformer. It also has a neon light and some other things we use. no cap no xenon bulb, no battery. I kept quite until I saw the transformer. It has 5 pins soldered. but it is the big one, I am pretty sure.

I want to get to work on something right away... mmm I wonder which way to travel today 8)

@Jim, I saw the one with the mousetrap, but I haven't found the first one yet... (I went looking then got distracted, I think)

thank you all for such a great thread,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Thaelin on February 03, 2009, 05:00:17 PM

Now just take the circuit and power it with a D cell and have lights for a long time.
This is what I have been waiting to see. A FL bright enough to see by from a single
battery. A trip to the As-is for some junk cameras. ;D

thaelin

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 03, 2009, 05:03:31 PM

@ @ gadgetmall

I fixed the last drawing. Hopefully it is now correct.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 03, 2009, 05:12:13 PM

Quote from: xee2 on February 03, 2009, 04:52:40 PM
@ gadgetmall

OK. Like this?

i think so . My Head is not thinking clear but it look right . one leg go to base other to coil which is parallel to the circuit like that the cap jumps from base connection across the transformer which is the other end of the VR Yes .. I have to get something to eat for me and my little one . all have fun and i'll see ya in a bit if you need me .. I think i put the pictures so anyone can do this quick . did i mention u can use a 3 k hard resistor . Just get that Power nabbing resistor outa there !! also . that is my 3rd test Fugi with a hard 3 k resistor . I havent did a test on it but got the current down to 32 or so. Im outa little pots :) . I haven't finished it . still messing with caps and trigger traces .s

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 03, 2009, 05:12:52 PM

@ jeanna

It was late at night and my thinking was not very good. I tried lighting an LED with the 10K circuit and it did not light. The output voltage was still good and I jumped to the conclusion that the circuit was not putting out any current and therefoe told you that it was a bad idea. However, it turned out that it was the LED that was bad. When I tried a new LED it lit up very bright. So the circuit was working but not my brain.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 03, 2009, 05:18:12 PM

Quote from: jeanna on February 03, 2009, 04:59:22 PM
Hi everyone,

I think I have been in deep space or something.

@gadgetmail, Have all these discussions about the PNP and 68pF caps and other caps been about the fuji circuit?

No wonder I couldn't copy it. I was using a simple wound toroid and a 3904NPN to which I added a 100pF cap at the base...

Please clarify. My head is spinning with all the new ideas and posts today.

@xee2, When you said bad idea etc... what was the bad idea, please?

@All,
I got my order of toroids, and also a thing 3/$1 that goldmine called high voltage board which is a stripped camera ckt which seems to have a big transformer. It also has a neon light and some other things we use. no cap no xenon bulb, no battery. I kept quite until I saw the transformer. It has 5 pins soldered. but it is the big one, I am pretty sure.

I want to get to work on something right away... mmm I wonder which way to travel today 8)

@Jim, I saw the one with the mousetrap, but I haven't found the first one yet... (I went looking then got distracted, I think)

thank you all for such a great thread,

jeanna

No Jenna they are different . I just tried the Jt LPJT mod on the fugi last night and it works on it too!! . Sorry . I know i am going at light Speed but these jokers that pop in here saying we haven t accomplished nothing got me ticked and so i have three projects iam working on and SHOWED THEM !!. you keep working on what you got . Ok ?
Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 03, 2009, 05:30:56 PM

im on it however my cam boards are not fugi ... but they are what i have been useing all along and are a decent sized transformer ...

i would expect the same or similar results... 8)

we shall all see ;D

cant wate to build my plastic ring ... ya know .... i put the rest on hold ;)

ist!

but this will be a great power supply 8)

kinda need that first ... ya know :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 03, 2009, 05:44:58 PM

@all

Some tough on the future, The limit are our imagination , find other uses for that power, we got light and power to generate rotation great for generating more power,but we need to think about other application that's the creative part.

At some point we will need to regulate the out coils power to 60 cycle to use on other application.

There have been many different technology used in the last 200 years , all have limitations , that is part of the fun, its a puzzle , find a way to use all of them together for there best application, we will be surprised of the outcome.

Also the time factor, cycles needed to get certain flow needed for good load application some sense need to be made there.

A voltage doubler or get the hv down ? Do we really get the the same amps in as out if we take the hv back down to 1.5V ? Time ?

Could we built a 1.5 v to 12 volt variable transformer , to kill dead bat around the house when they are no longer at spec voltage?

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 03, 2009, 05:51:06 PM

@gadgetmail

Quoteyou keep working on what you got . Ok ?

Oh good. OK ;)

@jesus,I am sure many folks out there, way more than we know, are studying your drawings. You are clear and your captions are right there and...

But the REAL BIG value comes from the discussion that happens when you are unsure or when the 'designer' is making a correction. This draws attention to the point of importance and makes it very clear. So, please continue with this extra contribution. It is very valuable.

And so, in that light, I would ask you to change 2 things, if you would.
Please correct the 680pF to 68pF on those base caps.

The other thing I think is because there is a pictorial element to your schematics, the secondary is actually going through the center of the toroid, but the drawing shows it going around the whole thing. I tried it the other day, and I cannot honestly remember what the results were so I will do it again later, but the thing is that it is going through the center right now and in all the results posted so far. So, please would you make this change too?

EDIT: In fact you get nothing by wrapping the secondary around the outside across the center but not looping through it. I just did it with 3 wraps and there was not even a flicker.

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 03, 2009, 05:56:55 PM

@All
@ thanks but DON'T STOP DOING WHAT YOU ARE DOING because of my work . . We need the test you are doing Jeanna .on the Jt . I just helped get the current down . Continue on .

Looking at the Fugi it looks like there is a heavier gauge wire wrapped around the transformer about 10 or 11 turns // I want to get a toroid to do what that transformer Does and do it with a JT . Then I want to Help Mk1 and IST on the mag amp cause what i see is it needs a pure dc source like a fugi charged cap circuit maybe and an ac source like a Darlington circuit JT maybe .. .. Ramblings of a Mad Scientist Maybe ?

Naw ... I'm gone for a while to eat and take My Meds :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 03, 2009, 06:07:23 PM

@ jeanna

If you are still trying to make a low current JT I suggest you try the 2N2222A transistor snd make a toroid with 10 and 40 turns.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Freezer on February 03, 2009, 06:29:26 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on February 03, 2009, 05:56:55 PM
I want to get a toroid to do what that transformer Does and do it with a JT .

That's what I've been looking at as well. :) I'm not there yet, but heading towards it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 03, 2009, 06:42:21 PM

@Freezer . May i ask what program do you use to draw with ? And i dont see how that circuit works with a cap in series with a winding . :) keep us posted . Nice ~ ***EDIT*** O good you fixed it :)

@ aLL . if anyone is interested , the fugi i lit this morning at 8 am with the 45 watt CFL is still on but i see little spirals effects going on so i expect this one will last another hour .. its been on for 11 hours !! one more . looks like the average for both is 12 hours of CFL light with plenty to spare for LEds i bet .. will measure when it un-lights .the other stopped at 1.16 volts and lasted 12.5 hours with a 15 watt cfl . it was still oscillating and producing energy thought could have lasted maybe another 8 hours on leds ..100+ i think .. EDIT .. ok # 2 FUGI CLF DIED 11 hours 11 minutes voltage is 1.13 and i can adjust it to still light but it draws more current than the initial lowest current drawing setting. i have more than enuff power left because it still is putting out Voltage . .. Next Im having fun are U ?....

TBC

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 03, 2009, 07:00:22 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on February 03, 2009, 04:55:25 PM
haha we posted at the same time look up ! I Edited the answer .. Also i tried different capacitors . Some "short it or stop it some don't . and a Cap across the battery in this circuit draws more current . Just an observation with the caps i have here .

I know this is from pages ago, but this is what I was finding last night too.

The cap across the battery drew more current.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 03, 2009, 07:05:02 PM

Quote from: jeanna on February 03, 2009, 07:00:22 PM
I know this is from pages ago, but this is what I was finding last night too.

The cap across the battery drew more current.

thank you,

jeanna

Hi Jeanna . Not on My Jts .they got brighter and less current draw with cap +battery.. they are 2200uf at 10volts Low ESR ,, on the Jts with secondary or without like a normal jt . The size of Uf matters .and the Voltage cap i use is never more than 16 v caps .
They(caps across the battery) didn't work on the FUGI thats what i meant .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 03, 2009, 07:06:44 PM

Quote from: xee2 on February 03, 2009, 05:12:52 PM
and therefoe told you that it was a bad idea. However, it turned out that it was the LED that was bad. When I tried a new LED it lit up very bright. So the circuit was working but not my brain.

OK good. HA forgiven. I had already tucked in when you sent that!

(Maybe I will catch up to this thread by nightfall. It is already 4PM)

Thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 03, 2009, 07:22:03 PM

well i built it ... but i noticed that if i cap the out put my bulbs get brighter.. im useing 3 7w leds

not sure if they are full brightness or not ..

used a 10k pot and 68 cap but there is not much diff tho to the eye on the leds .. there is 1 spot they get brighter .. im going to try a 3 k resistor next unit ..

ist!

i used a 1kv cap on the out put ... little blue one

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on February 03, 2009, 07:44:34 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on February 03, 2009, 05:18:12 PM
No Jenna they are different . I just tried the Jt LPJT mod on the fugi last night and it works on it too!! . Sorry . I know i am going at light Speed but these jokers that pop in here saying we haven t accomplished nothing got me ticked and so i have three projects iam working on and SHOWED THEM !!. you keep working on what you got . Ok ?
Al

bravo!! nice job on getting your amps down. as bill said this is great for camping i have now wired my fluoros up to mains for a fraction of what they used to cost powered by mains.

bravo again gadetmall!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 03, 2009, 07:46:21 PM

QuoteQuote from: jeanna on Today at 04:00:22 PM
I know this is from pages ago, but this is what I was finding last night too.

The cap across the battery drew more current.

Quote from: gadgetmall on February 03, 2009, 07:05:02 PM
Hi Jeanna . Not on My Jts .they got brighter and less current draw . they are 2200uf at 10volts Low ESR ,, on the Jt . they didnt work on the fugi ..

OK I am glad you corrected me. Here is what happens.

On the secondary circuit (checking amperage when the lights are coming only from the secondary,) the amperage draw goes down with the cap across the battery.

I was playing around with some of xee's ideas last night and he had the light in the primary spot.

With the leds in the primary spot of the jt ckt, and the cap across the battery the amperage goes up. - or at least it did with the caps numbers I was working with.

I really want to keep the lights coming off only the secondary. This is where the free ride is, IMHO.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Freezer on February 03, 2009, 08:05:28 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on February 03, 2009, 06:42:21 PM
@Freezer . May i ask what program do you use to draw with ? And i dont see how that circuit works with a cap in series with a winding . :) keep us posted . Nice ~

You right, I made a mistake on that schematic. I replaced it with the correct one. I use illustrator for line work, and photoshop for formating. They are great programs, but not really intended for circuits.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 03, 2009, 08:09:44 PM

@all

Some more. http://www.ee.kth.se/php/modules/publications/reports/2009/IR-EE-ETK_2009_001.pdf

Dose anyone have the navy magnetic amp book?

http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/4870005?tab=holdings#tabs
http://api.anobii.com/books/Magnetic_Amplifiers/9780970961853/0199c1ee7eab6c6d6a/

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 03, 2009, 08:10:00 PM

This is just a bit more. inspired by what ist just said, although I am not sure what ckt the comment was about??

I just changed the cap on the base resistor which is now 2.2k down from 4.7k (but it is the same for the following:)

Using 100pF the lights of the secondary dimmed a little, but easily seen change.

Using 10,000pF, the lights of the secondary brightened BUT the cost!! The amperage went up 10 times!

@Gadgetmail, you said there was some tuning involved and you ended up with the 68pF. The closest Radio Shack had to 68 was the 100pF and my next larger size is100 times greater and the use was 10 times greater.

The change went from 2.5mA with 100pF (it sez 101) across the base resistor, to 23.6mA with the 10,000pF (it sez 103)

With more amps there was more light. (I don't think 10 times more though) I think I will shut up for a while and wind a new toroid so I can make some planned changes. syl.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 03, 2009, 08:17:47 PM

@all

http://www.google.com/patents?id=srNUAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA1&dq=2548049&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=0_1

This can be done on 2 toroid.

http://www.vias.org/eltransformers/lee_electronic_transformers_09_06.html

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 03, 2009, 08:21:25 PM

Quote from: jeanna on February 03, 2009, 07:46:21 PM
OK I am glad you corrected me. Here is what happens.

On the secondary circuit (checking amperage when the lights are coming only from the secondary,) the amperage draw goes down with the cap across the battery.

I was playing around with some of xee's ideas last night and he had the light in the primary spot.

With the leds in the primary spot of the jt ckt, and the cap across the battery the amperage goes up. - or at least it did with the caps numbers I was working with.

I really want to keep the lights coming off only the secondary. This is where the free ride is, IMHO.

thank you,

jeanna

ok Jeanna > i got your Circuit with cap across the input 10volt cap ,tiny .. and it has been lit for 11 days now running 2 whites 4 reds one green and three rainbow Leds .. Its My Bedside Nightlight . NOW i also have My new Circuit with the larger 10volts cap drawing .81 ma running 4 white Brights .. running for some 4 days now still bright and still running off a dead battery . Ie (.90 ).. . So . I guess it really matters about the Uf . what Uf are you using and what voltage .? It mat take a few minutes for it to stabilize by the way . mine didn't but during some cap input test if they are to low it takes a long time to charge to the battery level and thus heavy current draw .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on February 03, 2009, 08:22:21 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on February 03, 2009, 05:56:55 PM
Looking at the Fugi it looks like there is a heavier gauge wire wrapped around the transformer about 10 or 11 turns // I want to get a toroid to do what that transformer Does and do it with a JT . Then I want to Help Mk1 and IST on the mag amp cause what i see is it needs a pure dc source like a fugi charged cap circuit maybe and an ac source like a Darlington circuit JT maybe .. .. Ramblings of a Mad Scientist Maybe ?

get the resistance between each pins of your transformer, measure the wires size.
those values can be use to calculate the turns.

http://www.cirris.com/testing/resistance/wire.html

you can calculate the ratio too.
measure volts on primary then measure on the secondary.
divide secondary value by the primary value.

in the case of the Fuji transformer keep in mind that one of the coils is center taped.

the Fuji is not the only source for those kind of transformer.
you can find them in almost every electronic appliance.
computer PS, some printers, etc...
size and specifications change but you can always use the trick above to know how many turns are used in them.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 03, 2009, 08:44:23 PM

@MK1

I allso found this on yahoo about Mag-Amp Magnetic Amplifiers.

http://www.butlerwinding.com/elelectronic-transformer/mag-amp.html

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 03, 2009, 08:47:56 PM

@jeanna . Where you got it bright with the 10000pf that is GOOD now all you do is increase the resistance of the base . YOU NEED a VARIABLE resistor in series with your hard value . you will get the ma down and then add a cap on the BASE mod ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 03, 2009, 08:52:18 PM

@slayer007

I posted the same a few pages back, lol thank for your in insert, i have to say that there is still a main part missing in my plans(the dc constant)but the last one dose have a interesting pickups coil arrangement and also need a look at , we are just starting .

That is why a made it to fit the regular jt circuit .

Thank for the 2 toroid on one transistor it was a great help!

great work

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 03, 2009, 09:04:53 PM

i feel like a yo yo lol

errr

you guys build gadgets unit plerase show CLEAR PICS and all mods ...

when you get it finial i will then build it

im gonna build the new mag amp .... with a feroite transformer core ... and the PROPER JT ;)

i think it should have 2 transistors 1 out put coil secondary ... 2 bifillar windings oppesit each other ... left and right hand .... ;)

will build this tonight too ...

ist!

GADGET CAN YOU PLEASE MAKE A TUBE VID TO CLEAR THIS UP SHOWING RESULTS... 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 03, 2009, 09:10:05 PM

@MK1

The dc constant could be a transformer conected to your JT.
Connect the transformer to your collector of the transitor then to the positive of the source.
Then if you have a big winding on your JT you could run that AC through the other side of the transformer.

I have a transfomer that should work good for it.
I'll have to try it out tomorrow. ;)

I did some thing kinda similar with a pulse motor I was working on.
I would send the back EMF from the transistor back through the extra coil winding.

Here is a old video of it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PW3Bz2tdmAY&feature=channel_page

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on February 03, 2009, 10:02:49 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on February 01, 2009, 02:29:59 AM
Hi . you are Missing post .We have a new Circuit which surpasses anything So far as current draw :) 0.202 ma per led . lets see 1.2 volt Ni-mh 2400 mah = 11881 hours run time or 495 days run time for a single Led on the FJLP circuit . Is my math right : Could someone check me on this ?
* Assumptions:
* Battery stored current is 2400 mAh fully Charged
I = 2400 mAh
* LED draws .202 mA of current
C = 0.202 mA
The calculation is simple division.
I Ã· C = T
2400 mAh Ã· 0.202 mA = 11881 hours / 24 = 495 days
You missed alot since that post Here is the new Circuit That i Claim as Mine and Jeanna's Hybrid . Nothing like it on the internet in public Domain ! http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg154173#msg154173 post #2095

no im not missing it im just way behind! i admire that parallel cap you did, its awsome! my 2700 mah said it could run 900 days? dunno but anywhoot were doing something great here,

i need to get back to my other experiments, some of the sciences here are quite close.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slapper on February 03, 2009, 10:23:42 PM

Someone put the mag amp books here a while back:

Magnetic Amplifiers U.S. Navy 1951:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item204 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item204)
You will need DjVu Viewer to open the document inside the zip file.

Magnetic Amplifiers Principles and Applications1960:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item205 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item205)

Take care.

nap

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 03, 2009, 10:32:39 PM

Quote from: jeanna
...
Please correct the 680pF to 68pF on those base caps.

The other thing I think is because there is a pictorial element to your schematics, the secondary is actually going through the center of the toroid, but the drawing shows it going around the whole thing. I tried it the other day, and I cannot honestly remember what the results were so I will do it again later, but the thing is that it is going through the center right now and in all the results posted so far. So, please would you make this change too?
...
jeanna

@jeanna and @gadgetmall

The changes have been made changed graphic is at:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg154882#msg154882

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 03, 2009, 11:03:35 PM

@slapper

Thank you very much!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 04, 2009, 01:02:19 AM

@jesus,
That looks great.

Thank you,

@gadgetmail,
Actually I really only need to make more turns. I was reading 1 or 2 turns. The voltage and brightness goes up with each turn but the amperage stays the same, when the light comes from the secondary. That is why I got excited about your 68pF cap. I didn't have my new toroids until today, so I couldn't actually make the extra turns.

I have been researching other things this evening. I am getting back to it now. I will give details tomorrow, I think.

And, I am doing my best to leave those fuji circuits in the box until I get this more figured out. I know it can be done.

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 04, 2009, 02:01:04 AM

Quote from: Thaelin on February 03, 2009, 08:45:03 AM

@ Pirate
Spend the quality time with your friend, I had to put my baby to sleep last year and
I still miss her dearly. Just so empty here now. Hard to miss 118lb rottie.

thaelin

Thaelin:

Thank you. Sorry to hear about your dog. I apologize for taking so long to reply but our topic keeps cruising along. I really appreciate your thoughts.

@ Jim:

That is not a bad idea with the exception that the rouge that will cut glass in the manner you suggested is not hard enough to even touch the ferrite. Glass is 5.5 on the moh's scale and ferrite is 8.5 and higher. Some is even around 9. Diamond is 10. It will take diamonds to do anything to our little ferrite cores. I have a small collection of diamond drills ranging in size from about 1.5" diameter down to about .030. If I have to, I can drill a series of holes in close proximity and file the rest with one of my diamond files or diamond wire saw. It won't be pretty but it will be a gap. Or, I could stop by my ex-wife's company (which used to be my company before the divorce) and ask to use a diamond saw machine for a few minutes but, I think I would rather have all of my teeth pulled without any anesthetic. Part of the fun of all of this is to make due with what we have, or can get. (scrounge) I know you understand this as you do it all the time. Great find on that ammeter with the cotton insulated wire.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 04, 2009, 02:24:55 AM

I was able to light a neon bulb dimly with a normal JT circuit by adding a cap and changing turns ratio (also used a big toroid).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 04, 2009, 03:16:47 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on February 03, 2009, 09:04:53 PM
i feel like a yo yo lol

errr

you guys build gadgets unit plerase show CLEAR PICS and all mods ...

when you get it finial i will then build it

im gonna build the new mag amp .... with a feroite transformer core ... and the PROPER JT ;)

i think it should have 2 transistors 1 out put coil secondary ... 2 bifillar windings oppesit each other ... left and right hand .... ;)

will build this tonight too ...

ist!

GADGET CAN YOU PLEASE MAKE A TUBE VID TO CLEAR THIS UP SHOWING RESULTS... 8)

Hi WIlliam . IF i had some MONEY i would buy a Decent CAMERA . . My video camera is a hacked CVS video camera i bought for 3 bucks . and my still Camera is a casio i bought on ebay 7 years ago that has a macro switch on it but no zoom so they are as clear as i can get em .. Sorry

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 04, 2009, 03:21:20 AM

Quote from: xee2 on February 04, 2009, 02:24:55 AM
I was able to light a neon bulb dimly with a normal JT circuit by adding a cap and changing turns ratio (also used a big toroid).

So the Turns ratio is not 10 / 40 ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 04, 2009, 04:01:30 AM

@ gadgetmall

Quote from: gadgetmall on February 04, 2009, 03:21:20 AM
So the Turns ratio is not 10 / 40 ?

Turns ratio is as shown in diagram. Normal JT is usually about 10 and 10. Actually neon is bright for a neon but that is dim to me.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 04, 2009, 04:06:51 AM

Quote from: jeanna on February 03, 2009, 08:10:00 PM
This is just a bit more. inspired by what ist just said, although I am not sure what ckt the comment was about??

I just changed the cap on the base resistor which is now 2.2k down from 4.7k (but it is the same for the following:)

Using 100pF the lights of the secondary dimmed a little, but easily seen change.

Using 10,000pF, the lights of the secondary brightened BUT the cost!! The amperage went up 10 times!

@Gadgetmail, you said there was some tuning involved and you ended up with the 68pF. The closest Radio Shack had to 68 was the 100pF and my next larger size is100 times greater and the use was 10 times greater.

The change went from 2.5mA with 100pF (it sez 101) across the base resistor, to 23.6mA with the 10,000pF (it sez 103)

With more amps there was more light. (I don't think 10 times more though) I think I will shut up for a while and wind a new toroid so I can make some planned changes. syl.

thank you,

jeanna

You are at the right spot when the lights got brighter and the current went up . replace your 2.2 with at least 5 to 10 k . I can tell you that the effect of current drop is VERY DIFFERENT using a little carbon vr with the little cap across the legs of it then using the wiper and one end to adjust it THAN using a hard resistor . I proved that to My self .total two different outcomes using the exact same resistance set with vr verse hard resistor . I think the Vr has a little reaction going on with the metal or contact . maybe like a using coil a bit . i don't really know but i thought it worked better on Jt's.

Oh and Jeanna - My HANDEL IS GADGET MALL not GADGET MAIL ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 04, 2009, 04:41:44 AM

@all

From lidmotor http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwbvCWEEcDc

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 04, 2009, 05:03:49 AM

Quote from: xee2 on February 04, 2009, 04:01:30 AM
@ gadgetmall

Turns ratio is as shown in diagram. Normal JT is usually about 10 and 10. Actually neon is bright for a neon but that is dim to me.

Wow . dang thats good . the best neon i ever saw fire was 53 volts and pretty much all my neons fire some where between 83 and 101 volts .. thats Awsome voltage for a 10 turn primary .. HMMMM . I have been using 100 turn primary and get way lower voltage off the transistor or secondary .. Interesting . I have tried 11 20 25 30 50 80 100 so far but not odd taps

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 04, 2009, 05:06:18 AM

@ MK1:

Great video! I am glad to see someone else using supercaps with the joule thief circuit. I believe this is an untapped combination. Now I have to order my 50F caps!!! Thanks. This makes my 2 10F caps look like nothing.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 04, 2009, 05:51:56 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 04, 2009, 04:41:44 AM
@all

From lidmotor http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwbvCWEEcDc

Yes that is Interesting . I have 5 of those modules i will be playing with the Bedini coil or toroid and maybe wrap a coil around the peltier module and play with it that way . Very Cool .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 04, 2009, 07:22:40 AM

@all

What about tthe peltier module with the rectifier and the 50F cap placed under or over the pulse motor or Joule thief magnetic fields and use the produced electrity to feedback the source battery?

I cannot afford the peltier module to make the test. But lots of people here can make the test and post results. If the results are positive I will make savings to buy the parts needed including the 50F cap.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 04, 2009, 07:54:50 AM

Quote from: xee2 on February 04, 2009, 02:24:55 AM
I was able to light a neon bulb dimly with a normal JT circuit by adding a cap and changing turns ratio (also used a big toroid).

Wow thats very impressive Xee2
On your coil winding did you wind the two wires next to each other in parallel?
Or did you wind one at a time like the primary 40 turns then the pickup 10 tunrs after the primary was wound.

Thanks
Great job lighting the neon :o

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 04, 2009, 07:56:48 AM

This is off topic but interesting . I am playing with three Large Hv caps . all discharged . i charge one up to 60 volts . transfer it to the second one the put them in series i get 130 volts . i take that 130 volts and transfer it to the third cap it reads 135 volts . i charge the second cap up with it put them in series and now i have 332 volts i charge the third cap up with those two and then put that in series with the three now i have 1100 volts between the three caps and discharged them . WOW a Major Blast .. All this with a starting charge of 60 volts we have got to build this thing . i know its the young effect but this could be used in our little project !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Thaelin on February 04, 2009, 08:10:25 AM

Gadget, I am rolling on the floor here. 1100v, man what a kabooooom.

Be uuber careful will you. That is heart stopping voltage matey. You need
to make very calculated moves from here on out.

Danger Will Robinson..............

thaelin

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 04, 2009, 08:23:38 AM

Why wont this stuff known 30 years ago . You can make a power supply that would run forever off caps and a motor with a commutator switcher on it with 3 or 4 caps . this is unreal . And yea that experiment is over for now as my caps are rated 550 volts surge Max . and i cannot go one more time :) Thats a thing Cool .. So even with 1 volt recycling these caps in series parallel loops you can get high voltage eventually after a few cycles . Awesome stuff ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on February 04, 2009, 08:24:51 AM

Quote from: Thaelin on February 03, 2009, 08:45:03 AM

@ Pirate
Spend the quality time with your friend, I had to put my baby to sleep last year and
I still miss her dearly. Just so empty here now. Hard to miss 118lb rottie.

thaelin

Yeah, we had to put my brother's dog to sleep on December 20. He was not as big as your rottie, but he was still a big boy. He stayed with my mother when my brother moved out so she could have some company. He was the most spoiled big-baby ever! But, he was always the sweetest and most gentle friend. He did pretty well later on for being 90+ in dog years ;D
To some people, pets become like their children. Others, their best friend. Spoil them while you can! ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on February 04, 2009, 08:28:45 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on February 04, 2009, 07:56:48 AM
This is off topic but interesting . I am playing with three Large Hv caps . all discharged . i charge one up to 60 volts . transfer it to the second one the put them in series i get 130 volts . i take that 130 volts and transfer it to the third cap it reads 135 volts . i charge the second cap up with it put them in series and now i have 332 volts i charge the third cap up with those two and then put that in series with the three now i have 1100 volts between the three caps and discharged them . WOW a Major Blast .. All this with a starting charge of 60 volts we have got to build this thing . i know its the young effect but this could be used in our little project !

Wow, I must've missed some good stuff. I'm like 20 pages behind in my reading thanks to work actually making me... well... work :(

;D
If anyone would care to PM me with any of the major discoveries over the last 20 pages, I would be very grateful. ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 04, 2009, 08:34:31 AM

hi . Timmy . well basically we build a flying saucer so cool ion death rays and .. hehehe.. We got the current way down on the Jt AND the fugi camera board .. How about running 11 -12 hours a CFL on an aa battery ?? or a year lighting leds on an aa battery . yep ya missed a lot . go back and read .. ..

@All

Im kind of curious if any one modded there fugi circuit yet and if you did can you report How Low you got the current draw down ? my lowest is 12 ma on unit one with a15 watt cfl and on unit 2 19 ma -45 watt cfl and unit three i am still working on . it has a 3 k resistor 32ma on it so far . i need some more Vr's and 68 pf caps .. .. Also if you modded one state what kind of lights you ran with it be it tube or leds . I am real curious about the Leds .. at least 200 hundred i would think cause you will burn up 100 ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 04, 2009, 09:45:20 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on February 04, 2009, 08:34:31 AM
hi . Timmy . well basically we build a flying saucer so cool ion death rays and .. hehehe.. We got the current way down on the Jt AND the fugi camera board .. How about running 11 -12 hours a CFL on an aa battery ?? or a year lighting leds on an aa battery . yep ya missed a lot . go back and read .. ..

@All

Im kind of curious if any one modded there fugi circuit yet and if you did can you report How Low you got the current draw down ? my lowest is 12 ma on unit one with a15 watt cfl and on unit 2 19 ma -45 watt cfl and unit three i am still working on . it has a 3 k resistor 32ma on it so far . i need some more Vr's and 68 pf caps .. .. Also if you modded one state what kind of lights you ran with it be it tube or leds . I am real curious about the Leds .. at least 200 hundred i would think cause you will burn up 100 ..

to be honest i have not got this to do anything more than it was .....

what did you mod ??

i see crap bout cap resistor on the supply on the gate ....................................................

for the record what did you mod...

i will do it but not 10 damm times ...

FUGI HERE .....

not jt .........

ist

post a verry clear description of what is to be changed and i will build it and post pics and a video but ... if you will not ....

until then ....

im at the MK1 MAG AMP JT ;) 4 CORE ..... got 1 done now 3 more to go ....

i dont really think i need the fugi .... :o

ive been rounding up 1kv caps and as big as i can find ...... in voltage....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 04, 2009, 10:08:18 AM

Quote from: Thaelin on February 04, 2009, 08:10:25 AM
Gadget, I am rolling on the floor here. 1100v, man what a kabooooom.

Be uuber careful will you. That is heart stopping voltage matey. You need
to make very calculated moves from here on out.

Danger Will Robinson..............

thaelin

tell me why some devices SHOULD NEVER BE CLOSED LOOPED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :o :o :o

hummm

there is no need is some cases ....

i bout tired of investors .... what a waste of my time ....... they have been .... :P

give em an 1" they want the world .... all for LITTLE CARROTS.....

ha!

i dont think so ..... i spent 1000's of hours ... and 10's of thousands of dollars of my hard work to grasp what many never could .........

ist!!

REMEMBER WHO DID THE YOUNG EFFECT.... AND IT IS NAMED SO.....

THANK YOU CHUCK .....

my sg 36 works with a jt and the young effect .... jt to supply it .... jt to ramp it back up for the next lap ......

this powers my tpu generator .......

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on February 04, 2009, 10:21:59 AM

Alright, here's my first modified camera circuit a la Jose Pino
(http://josepino.com/circuits/?fluorescent_light)
with a few slight variations.

First of all I could not get the specific Fuji "continuous flash" disposable camera with the AA board,
but instead I got a really cheap B-brand that recycles old disposables (sloppily I might add).
The board and components look almost identical save a differently shaped cap, and I am still not
sure if the transformer is of the much praised 6-leg variety, but I modded it exactly as Jose did.
Which, if I understood correctly, is also the modification our Pirate uses in his fluorescent tube
experiments.

I did not have a slide switch but I did have an old light switch so I just took that and soldered
it to the board at what looks like exactly the same spot as Jose did.
Oddly enough, my switch does not work. It worked 5 minutes ago when it was still connected
to a lamp, but after soldering it to my circuit, it doesn't work. Or at least, no matter if I
switch it on or off, the circuit doesn't care, it just keeps running. I suppose I have connected
it wrong, but I really don't see where... Maybe it's just an old switch and this last tinkering
session broke it or something...

For your enjoyment, here's a pic of my modifiedd non-Fuji circuit lighting a 4W fluorescent tube. ;D

Oh, by the way, I noticed that the tube also lights up when only one wire is connected and the other
is not, as long as I hold the tube and the wire in one hand. I do not need to touch any of the conductive
parts, it is enough to hold the glass tube and the plastic coating of the wire. The tube does not light
as brightly this way though, and when I do hold the metal part of the wire the tube lights almost
as bright as when the wire is directly connected. Not entirely "single wire" but funky all the same. ;)

Kind regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 04, 2009, 10:35:22 AM

those are the exact boards i have been useing keon1 ...

great ...

i have been lighting 2 9w cfl from 2 aa's also with 1 wire ... at times does not last long even with gm's mod.....

but you get 1 hell of a zap ;D

try it ... lol make sure you hook it up as 1 wire .... into the cfl and touch the cfl wire and the other power wire :o :o :o ZAP!! EVEN MORE BITE THAN MY MOT ZAPS WITH A 12 V SUPPLY ... BUT OF COURSE THAT IS IN 1 PUSH OF MY BUTTON ... and the cam is open and closing the switch many more times ...... hence the bigger feel ... in the ZAP ....

ist!

just built mk1's 4 core magamp ... wound EXACTLY AS SHOWEN AND IT DOES NOT WORK WORTH SH!T

i will re check the damm thing but so far junk...... >:(

im gonna build it with just a few turns to see if there is a diff .... i hope so ... sheesh i the 1 i built i used 3' primaries and 6' secondaries

poor results ... might be my fault ... i dont know i hope to find out it is ....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 04, 2009, 01:02:49 PM

that looks like a fugi board keon1. IF YOU WANT 100% SUCCESS with the FUGI AA version only ! The way i FIX a FUGI board . is:::: tear the board out of the camera . i throw away everything including the film except the Board and battery .. VERY VERY SIMPLE MOD ..

STEP 1 : I KNOW THERE ARE VARIOUS WAYS TO DO THIS BUT THIS IS HOW I DO IT AND IT WORKS EVERY TIME :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::REMOVE THE CAP and STROBE

STEP 2 : JUMP THE DIODE JUST SHORT IT DON'T CUT IT

STEP 3 : re place the 220 ohm resistor between the transformer and the little transistor with a 10 to 20 k pot

STEP 4: NOT Needed - future

STEP 5 : hook up your load to where the HV CAP WAS !!!

STEP 6 : SHORT OUT The TWO SWITCH SOLDER PADS or PUT A SWITCH ON THEM .. you can cut the trigger fingers off (the thin long copper bars sticking off to the side )

thats it except adjust your current draw with an AMP meter in series with your battery to the lowest point you have usable light on you cfl /tube or what ever . this should be between 32-12 ma with one battery 1.18 - 1.58 volts. thats it .NEVER RUN THIS BOARD WITH MORE THAN ONE BATTERY .ITS JUST NOT NEEDED you run it with either an AA, AAA, watch battery (NOT LITHIUM 3volt ) C or D cell

these are the instructions to reduce the current . I can tell you how to engage the other transformer but it is complicated .
IF YOU DO THIS JUST LIKE I SAID YOU WILL GET at least 10 to 12 hours of CFL light . and way more Juice left for 8 more hours to run at least 200 leds . the power reading was 220 volts when my cfl runs out of enuff voltage to fire it . Now i Know this works because i am looking at two of them right now i put a recharged battery in them at 3 am this morning when i got up . they are still lit and its 2:45 pm EdIt light went out here so 11 hours 45 minuets on 45 watt .. 15 watt lasted another 40 minuets . Approx 12.5 hours same as yesterday ..
THE END

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 04, 2009, 01:12:49 PM

@ slayer007

Quote from: slayer007 on February 04, 2009, 07:54:50 AM
did you wind one at a time

I used two separate single layer coils.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 04, 2009, 01:19:37 PM

@ gadget.......

i have re built EVERY CAM CURCUIT I HAVE EVER USED ON ITS OWN BOARD I TOOK WHAT I NEEDED FROM THE CAMS AND RE BUILT THE THING

WITH ONLY THE REQUIRED PARTS.........

IST!

THANK YOU

i did this with your simple mod as well and it poorly lights mf cfl only for 15 min or so....... hummmmmmm

sure i found the sweet spot .... as the bulb gets brighter than falls out if i go to far ......

not near full brightness of the cfl .... why?... my cap says 68 it is a brown creamic a small one .... my pot is 10k.... put this where the resistor should have gone ...

no diode .... on the out .... all else is the same is this YOUR MOD?? OR IS THERE SOMETHING IM MISSING.... tryed cap across battery many diffrent sizes .... gets a tiny bit brighter .... i could not notice a diffrance much between values of caps ...... tryed many ... from high uf to low uf .... same results .... on the bulb

i dont know im only useing a 9w cfl.....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 04, 2009, 01:24:26 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on February 04, 2009, 01:19:37 PM
@ gadget.......

i have re built EVERY CAM CURCUIT I HAVE EVER USED ON ITS OWN BOARD I TOOK WHAT I NEEDED FROM THE CAMS AND RE BUILT THE THING

WITH ONLY THE REQUIRED PARTS.........

IST!

THANK YOU

Its cool man . just giving the proper instruction for My MOD to the FUGI . Ok .. your welcome .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 04, 2009, 01:53:10 PM

@ Koen:

My modification to the Fuji AA board is different from Jose's. I hooked it up just as you see in the pics I sent you. It is not all that different, but Jose says on his site (In the Q&A section) that his will only light a 4 watt bulb and no larger. So, by accident, I must have a little better hook-up design or my transformers are a better variety than his. Gadgetmall has made a major improvement in the Fuji wiring. I have not had a chance to replicate it as of yet but, I will. If you already did yours like Jose, you might skip my way and go right to what Gadgetmall is doing. This is fun stuff.

Gadgetmall:

Fascinating experiments with the caps. I was a believer in the Young Effect from the beginning. I even recommended that he name it that. Others say it can't won't work and we are measuring wrong but, I have seen it for myself. Nice work!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 04, 2009, 01:53:13 PM

@ slayer007

Here is a photo of coil.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 04, 2009, 02:01:17 PM

Xee2:

That looks lit up to me. Excellent work!!!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 04, 2009, 02:24:38 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on February 04, 2009, 01:19:37 PM
@ gadget.......

i did this with your simple mod as well and it poorly lights mf cfl only for 15 min or so....... hummmmmmm

sure i found the sweet spot .... as the bulb gets brighter than falls out if i go to far ......

not near full brightness of the cfl .... why?... my cap says 68 it is a brown creamic a small one .... my pot is 10k.... put this where the resistor should have gone ...

no diode .... on the out .... all else is the same is this YOUR MOD?? OR IS THERE SOMETHING IM MISSING.... tryed cap across battery many diffrent sizes .... gets a tiny bit brighter .... i could not notice a diffrance much between values of caps ...... tryed many ... from high uf to low uf .... same results .... on the bulb

i dont know im only useing a 9w cfl.....

William .It must not be either a fugi or if its a fugi that came with an aaa battery then i hear they are weaker and i don't have one to try and mod . Sorry . I would check the OUTPUT voltage with a DIODE on your LEAD and see what the voltage is if you can get a reading . and then check the current draw with one battery and tell me the measurements ..It might be that some of them come with a weaker transistor or maybe a different transformer ratio . Its possible some of the weaker ones we can replace the transistor with a different transistor or even a Darlington i will see if we can fix it .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 04, 2009, 02:29:19 PM

@Xee2

Thanks for the reply.
Very Nice job.
I'm getting some big 3 inch toroids today.
I was going to make a wind like that but with a secondary on it.

Edit.
I just tried a neon on mine to it light up bright allso.
I was suprised it light up.
I still like the way you wound yours I'll be tring that later today.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 04, 2009, 03:15:42 PM

thank you gadget that may well be the case ...

@xeeee nice work im half done building 1 like it ... but i found some really fine coated wire ;D ;D laying around ... i forgot i bought it

primary is wound ... now i did 30 turns im on the secondary .. it will be 120 turns.. same gage looks like 30 or 32 gage wire ..

i will post when i get it working ..

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 04, 2009, 03:23:50 PM

@ ist

I think 10 and 120 turns will work even better. I am using 21 ma from battery. With 120 turns I suspect that the base resistor can be increased to 2K to 5K and the neon will light with less current from battery. Please post your results.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 04, 2009, 03:33:33 PM

i will post and i can always unwind some off the primary ... if you think this is best i will do so ...

10 primary 120 turn secondary {really just the other half of the jt winding ...} and i do want to wind a secondary over the ring but is there any spical way or place to wind a secondary ..?

ist

i ran out of room on that unit ....

im gonna cut apart the cosmic rose jt and use that core it is bigger

so all will fit .. also im gonna just wind the first part of it bifillar till i get my 10 turns then carry on from there 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xenomorphlabs on February 04, 2009, 03:44:01 PM

@ all: I am trying to wind a secondary coil onto a ferrite toroid core as a pickup (8 windings, tried also 100)
My primary is bifilar wound like the normal joule thief (8 windings).
The joule thief circuit also DOES light up an LED,
but i get absolutely NO VOLTAGE on the secondary. I am using a core salvaged from a PC power supply. I tried a green and a yellow one.
I really have no idea why this would not work.Maybe these cores are no good, so no magnetism reaches the secondary?
Anyone has an idea what is wrong?
Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 04, 2009, 03:47:45 PM

Quote from: xenomorphlabs on February 04, 2009, 03:44:01 PM
@ all: I am trying to wind a secondary coil onto a ferrite toroid core as a pickup (8 windings, tried also 100)
My primary is bifilar wound like the normal joule thief (8 windings).
The joule thief circuit also DOES light up an LED,
but i get absolutely NO VOLTAGE on the secondary. I am using a core salvaged from a PC power supply. I tried a green and a yellow one.
I really have no idea why this would not work.Maybe these cores are no good, so no magnetism reaches the secondary?
Anyone has an idea what is wrong?
Thanks

as i have seen you get 1 or the other

my idea is this use the tranny as we are but send that through the secondary im gonna try that at some point ..

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 04, 2009, 03:55:31 PM

Quote from: xenomorphlabs on February 04, 2009, 03:44:01 PM
@ all: I am trying to wind a secondary coil onto a ferrite toroid core as a pickup (8 windings, tried also 100)
My primary is bifilar wound like the normal joule thief (8 windings).
The joule thief circuit also DOES light up an LED,
but i get absolutely NO VOLTAGE on the secondary. I am using a core salvaged from a PC power supply. I tried a green and a yellow one.
I really have no idea why this would not work.Maybe these cores are no good, so no magnetism reaches the secondary?
Anyone has an idea what is wrong?
Thanks

Hello and welcome.

Those colored cores are powdered iron and not ferrite. Maybe they work the same, maybe they don't, I really don't know, but, they are a totally different material. Ferrite is a ceramic and the powdered iron is a metal. Possibly someone here knows what difference this makes electronically? I would guess it has to do with the saturation levels and values.

Welcome aboard.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 04, 2009, 03:58:27 PM

Quote from: xenomorphlabs on February 04, 2009, 03:44:01 PM
@ all: I am trying to wind a secondary coil onto a ferrite toroid core as a pickup (8 windings, tried also 100)
My primary is bifilar wound like the normal joule thief (8 windings).
The joule thief circuit also DOES light up an LED,
but i get absolutely NO VOLTAGE on the secondary. I am using a core salvaged from a PC power supply. I tried a green and a yellow one.
I really have no idea why this would not work.Maybe these cores are no good, so no magnetism reaches the secondary?
Anyone has an idea what is wrong?
Thanks

Hi, now that you got everything hooked up , remove the led for jt spot and put it on the pickup coil.And remember your meter will not show the power if not rectified.

@ist

I think in the jt there already is a constant dc on either wire , i did a 4 toroid mag amp jt and it works!
Its a 4 mk1 style /slayer double, with 8 pickup coil , i am finishing the positive feedback
will give more details soon. 4 time the one on page 125.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xenomorphlabs on February 04, 2009, 04:06:43 PM

Thanks for the quick replies.
Removing the LED and putting it in the pickup-circuit does not light it up, multimeter reading is 0.00 Volt
in that circuit. So it seems that these cores do not allow the magnetism to flow like in a real ferrite core.
Only explanation that i have until now. Gotta get hold of some real ferrite.
EDIT: MK1 !!! That is worth to check out what happens with a rectifier. Thanks for the hint will try it now.

EDIT2: Bridge Rectifier did not help, still 0.00 Volts, its gotta be the core.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 04, 2009, 04:15:08 PM

I tried the neon JT with a different toroid and it required changing the base resistor to 500 ohms to light the neon.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 04, 2009, 04:20:19 PM

Quote from: xenomorphlabs on February 04, 2009, 04:06:43 PM
Thanks for the quick replies.
Removing the LED and putting it in the pickup-circuit does not light it up, multimeter reading is 0.00 Volt
in that circuit. So it seems that these cores do not allow the magnetism to flow like in a real ferrite core.
Only explanation that i have until now. Gotta get hold of some real ferrite.
EDIT: MK1 !!! That is worth to check out what happens with a rectifier. Thanks for the hint will try it now.

EDIT2: Bridge Rectifier did not help, still 0.00 Volts, its gotta be the core.

if this is TRUE .... YOU HAVE SOLVED MY 4 MAG AMP PROBLEM AS I USED YELLO CORES..... HUMMMMM

thank you ... i will have to re build it agin ...... ;D

sheesh lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 04, 2009, 04:26:23 PM

Quote from: xee2 on February 04, 2009, 03:23:50 PM
@ ist

I think 10 and 120 turns will work even better. I am using 21 ma from battery. With 120 turns I suspect that the base resistor can be increased to 2K to 5K and the neon will light with less current from battery. Please post your results.

I could not light a neon with 10/40 one inch toroid 450 ohm resistor and 5 k pot . this neon fires at 63 volts on the bedini . It does light an led up bright

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 04, 2009, 04:30:04 PM

I used Pc toroids but i only light up Leds with them . Yellow and green . I don't see a difference in iron or ferrite . a magnet will stick like glue to all of them !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 04, 2009, 04:44:14 PM

gadgetmaLL wow I even had to reread your correction to see it. ;D

OK I will put those pots back into my circuit. They were in the way so I took them out. I didn't move them around because I thought the resistance was good enough. When I did nothing visibly changed. I have some biggies around here. I will try them first.

@xeno...
welcome.
The only thing I would add is that the secondary must be pretty tight around the toroid. If it is just in the middle it could show nothing.
Or, maybe there is a cut in it? :)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 04, 2009, 04:57:02 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 04, 2009, 01:53:10 PM

Fascinating experiments with the caps. I was a believer in the Young Effect from the beginning. I even recommended that he name it that. Others say it can't won't work and we are measuring wrong but, I have seen it for myself. Nice work!

Bill

Hi . Yes for all those Non-believerst believe that we are measuring wrong . ask them to take a cap fill it with 12 volts then parallel series them till the reading is close to 3 or 400 volts and stick it up there :) Lets see if they think its reading wrong then ;) : (this is concerning the Young effect) Its real Voltage and Current !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 04, 2009, 05:48:22 PM

i think i found my problem ..... with my cores as this one didnt give the expected results ...

i think i need to have some kind of gap in the windings because i have no gap and i have poor results .,..

time to wind another ... ill get it right yet ..

ist!

i was playing with a cam tranny last night that lit 3 7w leds i bought more but have not tryed em yet

this ring i just finished will not lite 1 ...

i dont know

im thinking on working on something else for a bit as i have but only troubles with this stuff lately ... :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 04, 2009, 06:05:20 PM

@gadgetmall

I have the fugi circuit the way I see it. What do you think about doing changes to it in order to build the circuit that everybody will use to replicate your cfl light?

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 04, 2009, 06:06:08 PM

@Gadgetmall,

I need some help with this please.

I put the 50k pot in at the base and tested the amperage. It seems to be pretty normal, the higher the resistance the lower the amperage and the dimmer the light.

Conversely, the lower the resistance the higher the amperage and the brighter the light.

I have used the 100pF cap at this base resistor and it seems to make the amperage higher for the same resistance than without it.

Please review this.

One thing, I ignored what I wasn't sure of in the diagram. It appears that the cap is not parallel to the resistor, but it has been my understanding that you are putting this in a parallel way. Maybe not. Are you putting the cap between/ in line with the end of the resistor and the neg battery ?

That is the only thing I am not doing, but maybe I should be.??

thank you

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on February 04, 2009, 06:14:08 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on February 04, 2009, 01:02:49 PM
that looks like a fugi board keon1. IF YOU WANT 100% SUCCESS with the FUGI AA version only ! The way i FIX a FUGI board . is:::: tear the board out of the camera . i throw away everything including the film except the Board and battery .. VERY VERY SIMPLE MOD ..

STEP 1 : I KNOW THERE ARE VARIOUS WAYS TO DO THIS BUT THIS IS HOW I DO IT AND IT WORKS EVERY TIME :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::REMOVE THE CAP and STROBE

STEP 2 : JUMP THE DIODE JUST SHORT IT DON'T CUT IT

STEP 3 : re place the 220 ohm resistor between the transformer and the little transistor with a 10 to 20 k pot

STEP 4: turn the board on the solder side . this is not really that hard to do with the leads that would go to the switch facing you and to the left .. look at where you soldered the Pot at . the one trace closest to you is the BASE trace . Follow it past the first leg of the transformer(has a dot on top of the transformer ) and stop at the end of the trace . right directly across from it is the other side of the transformer(three legs soldered ) the other spot for the other leg of the cap goes directly across to that first solder point of the three legs . if you follow that trace you will see it goes to the other place where you soldered the pot .

STEP 5 : hook up your load to where the HV CAP WAS !!!

thats it except adjust your current draw with an AMP meter in series with your battery to the lowest point you have usable light on you cfl /tube or what ever . this should be between 32-12 ma with one battery 1.18 - 1.58 volts. thats it .NEVER RUN THIS BOARD WITH MORE THAN ONE BATTERY .ITS JUST NOT NEEDED you run it with either an AA, AAA, watch battery (NOT LITHIUM 3volt ) C or D cell

these are the instructions to reduce the current I can tell you how to engage the other transformer but it is complicated . BUT if you want to do it i guess the simplest way is to take the diode SHORT CONNECTION and run a little wire from that connection to the leg of the neon closest to the little pulse transformer .. thats it .. this will raise the current draw slightly and is really not needed unless you want over 1000 volts with a bit of a current drain ..

IF YOU DO THIS JUST LIKE I SAID YOU WILL GET at least 10 to 12 hours of CFL light . and way more Juice left for 8 more hours to run at least 200 leds . the power reading was 220 volts when my cfl runs out of enuff voltage to fire it . Now i Know this works because i am looking at two of them right now i put a recharged battery in them at 3 am this morning when i got up . they are still lit and its 2:05 pm
THE END

@ gadgetmall

Thanks for the ongoing progress you've made on the Fuji camera mod, you had me so inspired that I decided to take a chance on buying a 2 pack of cheap disposables for less than 8$ CDN at a local store (Giant Tiger for all you Canadian folks) and it turned out that the first camera I broke open was an IDENTICAL Fuji circuit that is on josepino.com!!!

Using the above quote from you earlier today I put this together so far.
If you can please correct the circuit using MS Paint if possible and if needed.

IMPORTANT:

DO NOT DO ATTEMPT THIS PROJECT UNLESS YOU ARE ABLE TO SHORT OUT THE CAP SAFELY!!!

Start: Remove plastic case off camera and and short out the cap with a well insulated screwdriver.
Remove remainder of the plastic case off camera, seperate and remove the circuit board (PCB).

Step 1: REMOVE THE CAP and STROBE
Step 2: JUMP THE DIODE JUST SHORT IT DON'T CUT IT
Step 3: Replace the 220 ohm resistor between the transformer and the little transistor with a 10 to 20 k pot.
Step 4: POT Placement
Step 5: Hook up your load to where the HV CAP WAS !!!

Optional:

Engage the other transformer but it is complicated (later).

The simplest way is to take the diode SHORT CONNECTION and run a little wire from that connection to the leg of the neon closest to the little pulse transformer .. thats it .. this will raise the current draw slightly and

is really not needed unless you want over 1000 volts with a bit of a current drain ..

IF YOU DO THIS JUST LIKE I SAID YOU WILL GET at least 10 to 12 hours of CFL light.

PS: I'm still short a 10-20 K Ohm pot so I stopped at this point.

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 04, 2009, 06:41:06 PM

Quote from: jeanna on February 04, 2009, 06:06:08 PM
@Gadgetmall,

I need some help with this please.

I put the 50k pot in at the base and tested the amperage. It seems to be pretty normal, the higher the resistance the lower the amperage and the dimmer the light.

Conversely, the lower the resistance the higher the amperage and the brighter the light.

I have used the 100pF cap at this base resistor and it seems to make the amperage higher for the same resistance than without it.

Please review this.

One thing, I ignored what I wasn't sure of in the diagram. It appears that the cap is not parallel to the resistor, but it has been my understanding that you are putting this in a parallel way. Maybe not. Are you putting the cap between/ in line with the end of the resistor and the neg battery ?

That is the only thing I am not doing, but maybe I should be.??

thank you

jeanna

Hi Jeanna . ok i take a tiny pot the middle leg is the wiper . i put My cap 86pf across the entire resistor of the pot itself . then i use one or the other end and the middle leg or the wiper . I keep a Small value resistor on the base at all times before the pot so i don't put a cap on the base at all . there is a resistor on the base then My cap /pot setup to the coil . Make since ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on February 04, 2009, 07:36:03 PM

Quote from: xenomorphlabs on February 04, 2009, 04:06:43 PM
Thanks for the quick replies.
Removing the LED and putting it in the pickup-circuit does not light it up, multimeter reading is 0.00 Volt
in that circuit. So it seems that these cores do not allow the magnetism to flow like in a real ferrite core.
Only explanation that i have until now. Gotta get hold of some real ferrite.
EDIT: MK1 !!! That is worth to check out what happens with a rectifier. Thanks for the hint will try it now.

EDIT2: Bridge Rectifier did not help, still 0.00 Volts, its gotta be the core.

The permeabilities or in this case AL factors i.e. ( inductance per 100 turns2 ) are:

TYPE COLOR AL Freq. Range

T50-26 Yel-Wh 320uH power freq. <--- 0 kHz. - 400 kHz i think
T50-3 Gray 175 50 Khz to 500 Khz
T50-1 Blue 100 500 Khz to 5 Mhz
T50-2 Red 57 2 Mhz to 30 Mhz
T50-6 Yellow 47 10 to 50 Mhz
T50-10 Black 32 30 to 100 Mhz

There is no standard color code for toroids.
Each manufacturer does it his way.
The color codes for iron powder cores shown in the ARRL handbook are for cores made by Micrometals.

for those made by Amidon see this link:
http://www.uoguelph.ca/~antoon/circ/toroids.htm

to me, with a joule thief, it is almost impossible to saturate a pc power supply toroid.
the current and frequencies we seem to get are too low to do that.

if it work with the led at standard place i don't see why it stop working for a third secondary coil.
unless...
reading 0.00 Volts might still be because of your meter limits.
the hemf are polarised, try your diodes both way.

Quote from: nievesoliveras on February 04, 2009, 06:05:20 PM
@gadgetmall

I have the fugi circuit the way I see it. What do you think about doing changes to it in order to build the circuit that everybody will use to replicate your cfl light?

Jesus

could you please get what lead are for witch coil ?

you will have to de-solder the transfo to read resistance between each pins.
if you could also mesure the wires size too, it would be great.
thanks

@IST
what are poor results for you ?

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg154955#msg154955
the max current the jt can give you will be divided by 4
the volts should be same for 2 secondaries and same for the 2 others secondaries.

if my test are right, there is a small volts diff from coil 1 between + and the base, compare to coils 2 between + and collector.
even if they are both same number of turns and same wire size.
i might be wrong tho.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: rensseak on February 04, 2009, 07:37:42 PM

Quote from: xenomorphlabs on February 04, 2009, 04:06:43 PM
Thanks for the quick replies.
Removing the LED and putting it in the pickup-circuit does not light it up, multimeter reading is 0.00 Volt
in that circuit. So it seems that these cores do not allow the magnetism to flow like in a real ferrite core.
Only explanation that i have until now. Gotta get hold of some real ferrite.
EDIT: MK1 !!! That is worth to check out what happens with a rectifier. Thanks for the hint will try it now.

EDIT2: Bridge Rectifier did not help, still 0.00 Volts, its gotta be the core.

Hi xenomorphlabs,

it is not the core u use. For me it works with that kind of core and even the original windings. So i think your connections are somehow wrong. Check it out.

regards
Norbert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 04, 2009, 07:42:42 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on February 04, 2009, 06:41:06 PM
Hi Jeanna . ok i take a tiny pot the middle leg is the wiper . i put My cap 86pf across the entire resistor of the pot itself . then i use one or the other end and the middle leg or the wiper . I keep a Small value resistor on the base at all times before the pot so i don't put a cap on the base at all . there is a resistor on the base then My cap /pot setup to the coil . Make since ?

OH, I see, you kind of split it. there is always a resistor at the base then there is this cap||resistor combo which you adjust. But the cap || resistor is the resonant circuit here. a bit of a tank circuit when you see the end of the coil right next to it, isn't it?

Seeing this as a tank circuit now makes it make a lot of sense.

I see. wow.

---

I was just finding a resonant spot at about 3k with 104 cap and 7k54r with the 103. I took the resistor away from the battery spot to have a look at it with the real juice and I saw what you were describing . As I turned the pot, the light went dimmer for a while then suddenly jumped higher. Corse, so did the amps when I checked back with that 10r resistor.. (It is a lot of fumbling. ) I also noticed that at this sweet spot, there was a marked change in the amperage when I put my hands on the pot. In the end I held it with my fingernails then dropped it to check. I think this was just at that spot. It is very sensitive there. Sometimes I turned the pot and watched the light sometimes I watched the amps.so I think it only happened there.

Egads sooo many things to watch and think about!!

fun.

thanks,

jeanna

I will set up a tank. That does make more sense.

I am now using a 5+5 bif with 50 turns secondary. It is nice to have some room inside the core.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on February 04, 2009, 07:59:07 PM

Hopefully these things will be ready by the time the j/t is fully developed.

Many great possibilities with this technology powered by a j/t.

http://www.gizmag.com/3-led-light-bulb-lasts-60-years-and-could-end-battle-of-the-bulbs/10879/

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xenomorphlabs on February 04, 2009, 08:40:01 PM

@all. Thanks for the input. I traced it down to a wrong connection.

@innovation_station : So the PC power supply toroids DO WORK !!! Hope you find the error in your mag amp :)

After the rectifier i measure 8.65 VDC in the secondary pickup-coil WHILE the LED in the primary circuit
is brightly lit! A Load might change that, needs to be tested.
Big thanks to Slayer007 for that brilliant idea!

Here a shot of it, sorry for the mess hehe:

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 04, 2009, 08:55:35 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on February 04, 2009, 06:05:20 PM
@gadgetmall

I have the fugi circuit the way I see it. What do you think about doing changes to it in order to build the circuit that everybody will use to replicate your cfl light?
I

Jesus

don't know the schemitic is blowing my brain . .. i gave partially incorrect steps . i edited them out .. What i see it the BASE on my board is the transistor pin closest to the plus battery connector . when you close the battery switch it connects the base to the coil -thru the coil -thru the VR to the positive . the cap best i can tell you is connected to the base on the coil to the positive . Has anyone did the pot mod with cap and got very good run time besides me ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 04, 2009, 09:00:19 PM

good going xenomorphlabs
sort of like bell labs only different... :)

@gadget and all,

I made some progress on the tank. Here are some numbers

base resistor 453r
toroid 5+5 bifilar and 50 turns secondary
Variable resistor parallel with cap in line between base resistor and toroid.

Testing variable resistor and 3 different caps 101pF, 103pF 104pF (I want the one in the middle!)

VR - 1K09r 101pF 25.5mA light bright
103pF 25.7mA light bright
104pF 26mA light bright

VR = 5Kr 101pF 12.5mA light not on
103pF 14 mA light on
104pF 14.1mA light on

VR= 10K6r 101pF 7.68mA light on
103pF 6.9mA light on bright
104pF 6.4mA light on less bright

interesting

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 04, 2009, 09:08:43 PM

(/quote)@TheNOP
could you please get what lead are for witch coil ?

you will have to de-solder the transfo to read resistance between each pins.
if you could also mesure the wires size too, it would be great.
thanks
(quote/)

what ? Not me Bro i got light :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 04, 2009, 09:17:24 PM

Another neon JT test using toroid with 10 and 100 turns. This works with base resistor as high as 2500 ohms and only uses 16.1 mA from battery to light the neon. So it seems that using more turns on the collector coil does provide better performance (lights neon with less battery drain).

EDIT:

NOTE: with 1K base resistor the battery drain is 36.8 mA (it was 21 mA with 10&40 turn toroid) so battery drain and output voltage are both increased as collector coil turns are increased. But with more collector turns it is possible to get more output voltage for same battery drain by increasing base resistor value.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 04, 2009, 09:22:12 PM

Quote from: xenomorphlabs on February 04, 2009, 08:40:01 PM

After the rectifier i measure 8.65 VDC in the secondary pickup-coil WHILE the LED in the primary circuit
is brightly lit! A Load might change that, needs to be tested.

xeno-

Check out the amps you are using.

What I found was that the amps are related to the transistor and led in the joule thief circuit itself. When you add lights by using the secondary, there is almost NO extra amperage used.

So, if you take out that light in the jt itself you will save yourself a lot of amps, and be down to just the requirements of the transistor.

That will put you on the same page as a few of us who are now working to get that transistor need down below what is considered normal..

hands in the candy jar, this is.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on February 04, 2009, 09:33:35 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on February 04, 2009, 09:08:43 PM
@TheNOP
could you please get what lead are for witch coil ?

you will have to de-solder the transfo to read resistance between each pins.
if you could also mesure the wires size too, it would be great.
thanks

what ?

the most important parts of the fuji jt is the transformer and its transistor.

i would like to know how this T1 transfo is winded relative to the schematic in this post
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg155334#msg155334

also, the resistance/wire size values would help to build a same ratio toroidal transformer.

the transformer must not be in a circuit for the ohms mesurement to be valide.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 04, 2009, 09:33:36 PM

Quote from: xee2 on February 04, 2009, 09:17:24 PM
Another neon JT test using toroid with 10 and 100 turns. This works with base resistor as high as 2500 ohms and only uses 16.1 mA from battery to light the neon. So it seems that using more turns on the collector coil does provide better performance (lights neon with less battery drain).

So xee2,
I have never used a neon for anything. I can go to wiki, for info, but I assume it is a high voltage number that takes few amps. Is that correct?

I want to ask about the way you are winding your toroid. Since you only have 2 wires, the only way it would shift back and forth would be if the 100 turns were starting in the same place and going in the other direction from the 10 turns. You have already said center tapped, and this is what I am stumbling to describe. Sort of like the MK1 only stripped down into 2 wires and 2 directions. Is this correct?

thanks,

jeanna

Oh yes, one more q. A long time ago you said that transformer in the camera circuit had was it 720 or was it 1720 turns?? Did you count them? did you calculate them?

thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 04, 2009, 09:36:44 PM

[quote @TheNOP ]
could you please get what lead are for witch coil ?

you will have to de-solder the transfo to read resistance between each pins.
if you could also mesure the wires size too, it would be great.
thanks
[/quote]

what ? Not me Bro i got light :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 04, 2009, 09:42:17 PM

Quote from: jeanna on February 04, 2009, 09:00:19 PM
good going xenomorphlabs
sort of like bell labs only different... :)

@gadget and all,

I made some progress on the tank. Here are some numbers

base resistor 453r
toroid 5+5 bifilar and 50 turns secondary
Variable resistor parallel with cap in line between base resistor and toroid.

Testing variable resistor and 3 different caps 101pF, 103pF 104pF (I want the one in the middle!)

VR= 10K6r 101pF 7.68mA light on
103pF 6.9mA light on bright
104pF 6.4mA light on less bright

interesting

jeanna

SEE that is what i was trying to tell everyone but i forgot most of my Glossary(had a brain stroke 2.5 years ago ) . Thanks for reminding an old radio head that is was a dang Tank circuit . SHEEEEsh .... :)
Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 04, 2009, 09:55:41 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on February 04, 2009, 09:33:35 PM
the most important parts of the fuji jt is the transformer and its transistor.

i would like to know how this T1 transfo is winded relative to the schematic in this post
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg155334#msg155334

also, the resistance/wire size values would help to build a same ratio toroidal transformer.

the transformer must not be in a circuit for the ohms mesurement to be valide.

Hi . Oh . No i got no idea man . Maybe some one else will tear theirs apart and unwind it and have calibrated eyeball and tell you the size of wire . i can make a guess :) All i know is i can Mod the sucker and get 12 hours of CFL light for free . and i explained the best i can to do the Mod .. ...thats all i really know .. I would say 15 turns of 26 -primary - 1750 turns secondary of 36 .. two legs are not used that i see on my board

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 04, 2009, 10:12:33 PM

@ jeanna

Yes. Neon is high voltage low current (but more current than LED). It proves that there is over 90 volts with at least some current. If neon lights then it is possible to light lots of LEDs connected in series.

No. My windings are not center taped (I never said that). They are two separate windings. It does not mater which way coils are wound but they need to be connected so that they are polarized as in diagram. Best way to do this is connect it and if it does not work reverse the leads on one of the coils.

One of the Fuji schematics showed something like 1750 turns. I do not remember the exact number.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 04, 2009, 10:36:39 PM

@ jeanna

It seems to me that your research tests show that the base capacitor should be larger than 1000 pF for best performance. Interesting results. Thanks.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 04, 2009, 10:51:17 PM

Quote from: TheNOP
...
could you please get what lead are for witch coil ?

you will have to de-solder the transfo to read resistance between each pins.
if you could also mesure the wires size too, it would be great.
thanks
...

I do not understand your question about what lead are for which coil.
Also desolder the transformer is out of the question. The circuit that now I have is a gift and most not be damaged.

I have a graphic made at the start of this topic with different schematics the first one is the exact way the fugi circuit goes on the pcb but I dont know how the inside coils are configurated.

Quote from: gadgetmall
don't know the schemitic is blowing my brain . .. i gave partially incorrect steps . i edited them out .. What i see it the BASE on my board is the transistor pin closest to the plus battery connector . when you close the battery switch it connects the base to the coil -thru the coil -thru the VR to the positive . the cap best i can tell you is connected to the base on the coil to the positive . Has anyone did the pot mod with cap and got very good run time besides me ?

Dont worry we will try to understand it as well as possible

Quote from: TheNOP
the most important parts of the fuji jt is the transformer and its transistor.

i would like to know how this T1 transfo is winded relative to the schematic in this post
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg155334#msg155334

also, the resistance/wire size values would help to build a same ratio toroidal transformer.

the transformer must not be in a circuit for the ohms mesurement to be valide.

Everybody here does his own measurements with his own flash circuit.

On the graphics there is a schematic that explains the transformer.
The other tests and experiments are on your own.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on February 04, 2009, 11:01:48 PM

@nievesoliveras
that graphics include the data i was looking for.
many thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 04, 2009, 11:07:20 PM

i have lots of transformers so i will take 1 apart and mesure the wires as long as they are not miles long ...

i took a few hour break from this to work out some other projects im working on ...

do you find it makes a diffrance if your wires are neatly wound or just clumped togather i personally wonder if it really matters ...

donk know any more ...

ist!

confused ;D ;D ;D

jesus the first schem on your page is my cam unit but there was never a cap there on any of them i have bought bout 40 of thease all are the same i found 4 diffrent transformers ... the ones i use the red ones are the best i have found ... easyest to get off the board with out breaking them ..

but none have the .22 cap there ..

the cap that is on my board is for the small transformer .... it powers that does it not ...?

so i took 1 apart ... looks like 4 turn primary wound on last .. then at least 2000 turns of verry fine wire ... so i stripped it all out it was incased in some goooie stuff

but i weighed em both ... round .5 grams with the gunk on then ... nearest i can tell they are equal masses ... short fat gage wire longggg skinny wire ...

sounds like tesla to me !!!!!

;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on February 04, 2009, 11:25:34 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on February 04, 2009, 11:07:20 PM
i have lots of transformers so i will take 1 apart and mesure the wires as long as they are not miles long ...

no need to take it all apart. :o
the resistance of the coils, wires size and transfomer dimensions are all that is require. ;)

something like this can be use for wire size measurements
Electronic-Digital-Caliper (http://www.amazon.com/Titan-23175-Electronic-Digital-Caliper/dp/B000B8XYV8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 04, 2009, 11:39:06 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on February 04, 2009, 10:51:17 PM
I have a graphic made at the start of this topic with different schematics the first one is the exact way the fugi circuit goes on the pcb but I dont know how the inside coils are configurated.

Dont worry we will try to understand it as well as possible

Everybody here does his own measurements with his own flash circuit.

On the graphics there is a schematic that explains the transformer.
The other tests and experiments are on your own.

Jesus

Hi Jesus Very Nice Schematics . I can Make a bit more sense of these I will mod one tomorrow for everyone with the correct instructions for getting the current WAY down . Also Mine has a different transistor than all of those listed it is a 2sd2504 . Might be the difference everyone is looking for .. thanks again . GNite .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 04, 2009, 11:46:48 PM

all my cam trannys read d1960 n ....

i have some others that are diffrent but this is what i used for all cam trannyies

as it is what they came with ..

ist!

i could give you resistance readings on my trannys

well gonna build me a tesla cap fire primary and secondary ;D ;D ;D :o

sure i will post the brute... i will make them equal mass ... hell with counting the turns ;D

@ bill ...

think a steel ring with a slice in it will work or just plain old air core .... ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 04, 2009, 11:50:17 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on February 04, 2009, 11:25:34 PM
no need to take it all apart. :o
the resistance of the coils, wires size and transformer dimensions are all that is require. ;)

something like this can be use for wire size measurements
Electronic-Digital-Caliper (http://www.amazon.com/Titan-23175-Electronic-Digital-Caliper/dp/B000B8XYV8)

Yea ist don't take it apart all the measurements are on those schematics including the wire size and turns . COOL .. . I was close ..PRI 6 turns #26 SEC 1750 turns # 45 and tapped another 15 turns #32 . dam im good. :) Almost ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 05, 2009, 12:03:28 AM

@ist gadgetmall

Young thief?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 05, 2009, 12:20:03 AM

@ All:

For what it is worth all of my Fuji Transitors are D1960's like IST's are. The T-9A transformer is also on all of them. Could we not just look up the specs on a T-9A online somewhere to see wire sizes and windings? I am sure Fuji did not build this transformer but bought a boatload of them off someone's shelf that makes it as a standard item.

@ IST:

Thanks. You are right, it may be the same a slicing my ferrite. I guess I just like the challenge.

@ All:

For some reason (ignorance probably) I can not get a handle on measuring amps (mA's) on any of my circuits. Yes, the books all say as many of you have said, measure amps in series, volts in parallel. Fine, I get that. What I don't get is how to do that? Every time I attempt this, it does not show the draw of the circuit, it shows the amps available to be drawn upon in the battery. No matter which circuit I use, or how many leds I am running, the measurement is the exact same as the battery alone. So, obviously I am not doing it correctly.

To put the meter into the circuit like the books say, the circuit has to flow through the meter right? So, I take the red probe of my meter and insert it into my breadboard just after where the battery plugs in on the + side, and then take my black probe and plug that to where the power jumper would normally go to the + side of my circuit and....it is the same as the battery. I did it on the - side and got same results. So, can someone please give me some simple instructions on how to do this properly? I keep getting 1.2 amps no matter where/how I measure, and on both the Fuji and the toroid it is all the same. Once I learn this then I can join in and see what mA's my circuits are pulling now. I really appreciate the help, thank you in advance.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 05, 2009, 12:27:26 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 05, 2009, 12:03:28 AM
@ist gadgetmall

Young thief?

if you can help make it work im in i will build it ...

scratch the t tranny for now ...

got another idea i have a transformer easly taken apart a bigger one just primary and secondary but

what if i wound on the bobbin that is already tuned ... a tuned primary .... hook it up as a jt ... with a 3055 and tap the secondary .... it is a lamanited core... ??? ideas?

ist

i guess there is no way to tune it unless i unwind the primary ... but does it really matter ... it may not as long as it is LOW SELFINDUCTANCE the primary i wind ...

dont know this is why im asking ....

waite a min ..... at a closer look it is center tapped ................................................ hummmm lol

so this means i have 5 out wires ... jt on primary side .... good stuff out the secondary .. might this work ??

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pardon on February 05, 2009, 12:34:54 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 05, 2009, 12:20:03 AM

@ All:

For some reason (ignorance probably) I can not get a handle on measuring amps (mA's) on any of my circuits. Yes, the books all say as many of you have said, measure amps in series, volts in parallel. Fine, I get that. What I don't get is how to do that? Every time I attempt this, it does not show the draw of the circuit, it shows the amps available to be drawn upon in the battery. No matter which circuit I use, or how many leds I am running, the measurement is the exact same as the battery alone. So, obviously I am not doing it correctly.

To put the meter into the circuit like the books say, the circuit has to flow through the meter right? So, I take the red probe of my meter and insert it into my breadboard just after where the battery plugs in on the + side, and then take my black probe and plug that to where the power jumper would normally go to the + side of my circuit and....it is the same as the battery. I did it on the - side and got same results. So, can someone please give me some simple instructions on how to do this properly? I keep getting 1.2 amps no matter where/how I measure, and on both the Fuji and the toroid it is all the same. Once I learn this then I can join in and see what mA's my circuits are pulling now. I really appreciate the help, thank you in advance.

Bill

just think of your meter as a wire and use the meter in place of a wire in any circuit to test amps

so remove a wire and replace it with your meter to measure amps

i hope this helps you out

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 05, 2009, 12:36:50 AM

Hi all,

I just went back to page 1 of this thread and followed a couple of leads given one to amigo's thread on energetic forum which had a link to a page with some interesting info. I imagine folks coming here who are looking at 220 pages, don't bother to follow all the side paths.

This page
http://cappels.org/dproj/ledpage/leddrv.htm#Rusty_Nail_Night_Light (http://cappels.org/dproj/ledpage/leddrv.htm#Rusty_Nail_Night_Light) gave a recap of stuff people wrote in and others experimenting. It is an easy review of the joule thief for anyone who has not built one yet.

The reason I am posting it is that there is a paragraph where the author states that the high gain transistors will have a slower switching rate. Those high gain transistors could need a small (max 22000pF- or was it 66000pF cap) to help speed up the switching time, and give a brighter light and better life.

Perhaps this is some of what we are seeing here in our differences.

I am using the 3904 which is NOT a high gain transistor - nor is the 2N2222. So, perhaps Gadgetmall's performance increase comes from the adding the cap because his transistor might be a little slower?

We can think about this. It is getting late out there on the east coast. Good night everybody back east. Good afternoon all you folks in aussie...

========

About the yellow leds. I have been using those yellows for a few trials lately. I have been reporting dim lights and it was all looking depressing to me, then just now, I switched 3 yellows for 3 whites. now, things are looking bright again.

The value of using the yellows, however is important. I hadn't realized this so much.

I saw the first yellow of a parallel array look much brighter than the next 2. they were decidedly weaker. When I replaced the yellows with the whites, I can no longer perceive the strength difference with my eyes.

So, even though I don't really want to use those less bright yellows, they give valuable information to us.

thank you,

jeanna

PS
The circuit that now has the 3 whites is one with 10k6r after the 454r at the base along with the 103pF cap for the tank. It draws 6.4mA which is 2.13mA per light. trez cool ne c'est pas? 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 05, 2009, 12:47:20 AM

@IST,

Whatever happened to those copper bobbins you wound over sewing bobbins in plastic and steel? I am very curious to know how well they worked as jt?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 05, 2009, 12:52:10 AM

@all

First thing is what dose this means?

And ist how many coil on the transformer? Remember this?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on February 05, 2009, 01:01:10 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 05, 2009, 12:20:03 AM
I keep getting 1.2 amps no matter where/how I measure, and on both the Fuji and the toroid it is all the same.

from the description you give it seem to be the right way to measure current.
one prob on + side of the battery the other probe where the battery + side was connected.
+ side of battery not connected to anything else then the prob.

maybe it is what you see, your jt drawing all of what your battery can give.
but that would mean you have a short circuit at all time...

but just to be sure.
your meter is on amps function, on what scale ?

try the resistor way.
put a 1 ~ 10 ohms resistor, measure it to know the exact value, where you were connecting your meter.
measure the voltage at the resistor, probes on both side of the resistor.
I = V/R, this should give you an approximation

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 05, 2009, 01:16:40 AM

morning . vant(HUH?) Oh Can't sleep heres a look at My boards and lights again . I love em . I remember when these didn't get 4 hours max and would eat a battery before breakfast .... Now 12 hours . Yo u gotta love it cause it is so useful around here especially when the lights go off (Middle of rural area ). lots of power outs and baby is scared of the dark No more . She helped me wind a coil today and soldered a Jt up for her third one now . She sleeps with them :) 7 and Cute as can be awww ,,
@ Jeanna NIce Work . I still say i got it Close with 100 secondary .30 primary and 68pf with two 20 k vr's and 430 -480 ohm resistor total ma 4 leds .81 ma .
I still have your JT running strong for almost 2 weeks on the same battery . I am Proud of IT they are your work and i sleep with them Next to My Bed . .HEHE.

some more pics Of FUGI >< . schematic DONE . Peace to all .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on February 05, 2009, 01:20:31 AM

@MK1

on the mag amp there are 3 coils
1 is the input source (AC)
2 is the control, the signal DC. a bit like the base of a transistor.
3 is the output (AC)

the output is not only related to the turns ratio of the 3 coils, it is also in fonction of the input (coils 1) and the signal (control coils 2) volts/amps feed to them.

at least this is true for mag amp amplifier gain circuit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 05, 2009, 01:26:03 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 05, 2009, 12:20:03 AM
@ All:

For what it is worth all of my Fuji Transitors are D1960's like IST's are. The T-9A transformer is also on all of them. Could we not just look up the specs on a T-9A online somewhere to see wire sizes and windings? I am sure Fuji did not build this transformer but bought a boatload of them off someone's shelf that makes it as a standard item.

@ IST:

Thanks. You are right, it may be the same a slicing my ferrite. I guess I just like the challenge.

@ All:

For some reason (ignorance probably) I can not get a handle on measuring amps (mA's) on any of my circuits. Yes, the books all say as many of you have said, measure amps in series, volts in parallel. Fine, I get that. What I don't get is how to do that? Every time I attempt this, it does not show the draw of the circuit, it shows the amps available to be drawn upon in the battery. No matter which circuit I use, or how many leds I am running, the measurement is the exact same as the battery alone. So, obviously I am not doing it correctly.

To put the meter into the circuit like the books say, the circuit has to flow through the meter right? So, I take the red probe of my meter and insert it into my breadboard just after where the battery plugs in on the + side, and then take my black probe and plug that to where the power jumper would normally go to the + side of my circuit and....it is the same as the battery. I did it on the - side and got same results. So, can someone please give me some simple instructions on how to do this properly? I keep getting 1.2 amps no matter where/how I measure, and on both the Fuji and the toroid it is all the same. Once I learn this then I can join in and see what mA's my circuits are pulling now. I really appreciate the help, thank you in advance.

Bill

Hi Bill . I just set My meter on the highest ma setting mine is 2000ma . one the fugi i leave the battery in but on the back soring clip holding the back i spring it back with a probe and put the other one on the back of the battery still in the holder with the plus of the battery touching its contact . . I was getting 1900 ma before i modded it . Now .81 ma a fraction ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 05, 2009, 01:41:49 AM

@ jenna

I replaced my 1,000 pF base cap with 10,000 pF and performance was about the same but not quite as good. So for me, it looks like I should not go higher than 1,000 pF.

Thanks for the link to the article. It was interesting that he was using base caps.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 05, 2009, 02:13:28 AM

@all

This a great video again from kubikop http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djskrNakKSc&feature=related

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 05, 2009, 04:24:42 AM

@all

i made some test on different toroid they all light the led in the normal jt way, but on same type and position on the pickup coil you got a big gap in results, some observations.

All test on 2n3904 , all results after rectifier so dc reading.

Yellow white(side) , with 1k got 7 volts , the best resistor is 7 ohm , got 32 volts. (xenomorphlabs, slayer007 , you should try changing the resistor value)

The green Blue side , with 1 k got 22v , the best is 55 ohm it gives 45 volts

The forest green , with 1k got 67 volts, the best resistor is 1k! (this one is the stuff of my dreams)

@ist

Toroid have inductance rating , yes the coil but the toroid and the freq is important.

I also found a chart of the wire needed to make a turn around the toroid, we still need to break the size code , but it still is nice to have.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 05, 2009, 05:04:27 AM

@ all
I drove into town today and bought a little device to try and get the best output out of my torrds.
What I got was a "Resistance Wheel", or Resistance Substitution Wheel". It cost me $19.95 Australian dollars, would be about $10 American.

This device has inside it all the resistors from 5 ohm to 1Meg ohm, I clip the red and black clips where the 1K resistor goes at the base of the transistor and after applying power, I turn the wheel until I get the best possible setting, against the best output of the torid.

Look at the scale, the pointers arrow will point to the resistor which is the one putting out the best voltage.

I believe there is a Capacitor wheel as well, I will get one of those as soon as I can.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 05, 2009, 05:21:21 AM

@electricme

Nice find !

I personally use a 30 turn 5k trim pot, so its a bit easier to dial just right.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 05, 2009, 06:54:37 AM

@ all
This is off the JT thread but I think we should all know how to repair a broken instrument, involving the meter pointer.
Over the years I have been involved in electrical work, nothing is more frustrating than the "needle" breaks off for one reason or another.

I had made a hole in my 24V DC distribution switch board, mounted my expensieve Ammeter, low and behold, the pointer indicator had snapped off, oooops i daisy.

Upon inspection, the pointer had corroded, being made of aluminium, it couldnt be soldered..

Closer inspection, revealed the pointer was hollow all the way up its shaft, this makes it much easier to repair.

I cut a suitable length of christmas tree thin glass fibre, I fed this up through the broken shaft, during this process, the shaft broke into 3 more pieces, I fed the other end into the movement section. Using superglue, a tiny droplet was applied to each rejoined shaft section.

This instrument will not be accurate anymore as the moving pointer will be heavier than its designed pointer.

But I managed to salvage my expensive meter.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 05, 2009, 07:58:46 AM

@ gadget.. you leave the electronic on the cfl this could also be my problem ... i have removed all electronics from the cfl's

i got more so i will leave em on there and try it agin ...

also on your mod it apears diffrent than i have done ..

ill get on it in a few min ...

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 05, 2009, 08:05:35 AM

@ All

Make sure you use FERRITE cores not the colored toroids that are powedered iron.
With the powered iron cores I can't get any voltage out of my secondary coil.
And the BEMF is about half what it should be.

I made a big one on a three inch colored toroid it had two JT's on the same toroid with a 100 turn secondary wind.
The JT works but the BEMF is about half what it should be and the secondary winding I get 0 volts.

I have one just like this but with only one JT on the toroid and a 100 turn secondary and I can light a neon on the secondary.
With the powered iron I get 0 volts off the secondary.
I guess with the iron you can't get it to go to a high enought frequency.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on February 05, 2009, 08:47:24 AM

Hmm this is an interesting observation, that apparently ferrite cores
behave differently than iron cores somehow...
Would that mean that the old iron cored PC transformer I have here
could turn out more efficient when I rewind it around a ferrite core??
Interesting stuff... :)

Anyways, since we seem to be slowly moving toward CFL/CFT lighitng
with a JouleThief-like power feed,
does anyone think it possible to move in the direction of electrodeless lamps?
After all, to light a CFL we need high frequency, and to light an electrodeless
lamp we'd need RF, and with the freqs we're using already we're not far off :)
(for info on electrodeless/RF lighting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrodeless_lamp
and for those allergic to Wiki: http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_rf_lighting_tunes/ )

Oh, and of course RF lighting is very Tesla. ;D

I was just thinking how neat it would be if we could actually manage to light up
lamps without direct electrode connection and using only one single wire
per lamp too... ;)
Or perhaps that's more a thing in the playing field of Stiffler than of the JouleThief?

Well, just got a handfull of new ferrite thingies in the mail so I'm off to wind a few
trafos. Seeya later :)

Regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 05, 2009, 09:12:20 AM

Quote from: electricme on February 05, 2009, 05:04:27 AM
@ all
I drove into town today and bought a little device to try and get the best output out of my torrds.
What I got was a "Resistance Wheel", or Resistance Substitution Wheel". It cost me $19.95 Australian dollars, would be about $10 American.

This device has inside it all the resistors from 5 ohm to 1Meg ohm, I clip the red and black clips where the 1K resistor goes at the base of the transistor and after applying power, I turn the wheel until I get the best possible setting, against the best output of the torid.

Look at the scale, the pointers arrow will point to the resistor which is the one putting out the best voltage.

I believe there is a Capacitor wheel as well, I will get one of those as soon as I can.

jim

WOW . that is Nice .. I want one and a cap wheel you got to be kidding .. Wish i had the MONEY and lived in CANADA :) darn..Very Cool Device to have beats the heck out of soldering piece after piece.
AL

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on February 05, 2009, 09:30:15 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on February 05, 2009, 09:12:20 AM
WOW . that is Nice .. I want one and a cap wheel you got to be kidding .. Wish i had the MONEY and lived in CANADA :) darn..Very Cool Device to have beats the heck out of soldering piece after piece.
AL

... just an idea; you could make such a wheel yourself, just make a little wheel
with a slide contact and seperate contact sections connected to each individual
resistor with all of the resistors connected to the outer rim, then connect the wires
to the central connector and the rim, and slide away... that way you'd only have
to solder the thing together once... ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 05, 2009, 10:51:13 AM

i just had a brain fart!! 8)

you see i have this 12vdc flasher for a blinker on your car ... it is electronic .. i was wondering if i charged the fireing cap with a cam unit maybe GADGETMALLS UNIT .....

it will self fire when the cap is full and dump to a light a battery .... whatever :o

how bout a mot..... to go to phase 2 of the cascade amp method... so all of a sudden i could be chargeing

big ac motor run caps in 2 pulses ..... hummmm...

ist .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 05, 2009, 12:08:56 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 05, 2009, 12:03:28 AM
@ist gadgetmall

Young thief?

HEHE . What we Got Beats the OLD Thief anyday huh ? ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 05, 2009, 12:14:38 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on February 05, 2009, 07:58:46 AM
@ gadget.. you leave the electronic on the cfl this could also be my problem ... i have removed all electronics from the cfl's

i got more so i will leave em on there and try it agin ...

also on your mod it apears diffrent than i have done ..

ill get on it in a few min ...

ist!

Morning william . well its 12 noon here but... If you are refering to My BULBS . no they are Stripped Clean . it just looks that way . i even srtipped the metal off the base so we don't get shocked . I have been bit Bunches of times . Way Worst than a "Joy Buzzer " :) the 4 ends inside the bulbs are twised 2 wires each side then i solder two wires and run thenm out the hole in the bottom of the base that i ripped off "theres plastic under it )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 05, 2009, 12:16:38 PM

@all

Here is the @gadgetmall's idea on @groundloop's circuit.

Please give any changes suggestions before the modifying time is up.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 05, 2009, 12:24:17 PM

Mobius ferrite rod (1950's Am/Sw radio) . NOw what . This don't do anything :) hook a bulb up to it and he gets Juice . where was he in the bermenda Triangle ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 05, 2009, 12:29:23 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on February 05, 2009, 10:51:13 AM
i just had a brain fart!!   8)

you see i have this 12vdc flasher for a blinker on your car ... it is electronic .. i was wondering if i charged the fireing cap with a cam unit maybe GADGETMALLS UNIT .....

it will self fire when the cap is full and dump to a light a battery .... whatever :o

how bout a mot..... to go to phase 2 of the cascade amp method...   so all of a sudden i could be chargeing

big ac motor run caps in 2 pulses ..... hummmm...

ist .

your going tohave to show me what to do with MOT's i FOUND two in the dump the other day .. the primary seemd to increase the current .notice that ? HMMMM MOT jewel Thief .. be back in a Bit !!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 05, 2009, 12:39:46 PM

@ gadget in 1 of your cam curcuits the pic looks like a fly back tranny .... meaning the bobbon is only wound around 1 leg and the other goes over the other side of the coil i bet it makes a diff...

all mine are standard transformers with 3 legs ...

how ever i have this REAL NICE MICROWAVE FLY BACK ;D

i will take a pic later

l8r

ist!

hope you all realize why i posted this unit.... ;D 8)

tip .... look at the out put winding on the fly back many short twisted wires..... litz style ...

hummmm

think that will increase the current?!?!! somthing about surface area....

lol this little board is as GOLDMINE .... OF TIPS.... ;)

@ bill lookie that toroide in my last pic.... ;D 2 things bout it ... the RECTANGULAR WIRE ....HUMMMM heave gage ... also your gapped toroide... 8) 8)

want more ... lol lookie the 2 diodes ... ;D lol

naw aint new to me ......... iv had this over a year ... ;)

also notice.. the hv dc caps... 3.0kvdc.... there is another that says 4.5 j 200

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 05, 2009, 03:20:19 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on February 05, 2009, 12:16:38 PM
@all

Here is the @gadgetmall's idea on @groundloop's circuit.

Please give any changes suggestions before the modifying time is up.

Jesus

.68pf dont do what it does on the JT . Will fix it better than it is now later .. 12 ma is good but i think we can do better . Only thing i see wrong on the schemitic is 20 k instead of 20 pot
***EDIT*** ooPs ... its not like mine look at the very last schemitic of yours i drew on please . cap connected to #2

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 05, 2009, 03:48:17 PM

Good afternoon everybody.

I have a request.
Please make at least sort-of complete sentences. It is wonderful to have so many ideas that they come too fast to write them down in a complete way before the next one comes. Exhilirating, in fact.

However, it is really hard to follow. I speak english as my first language but not everybody does, and if it is hard for me to follow, it must be crazy hard for a non english speaking person.

The world will thank you.

I just found a good reference for transistors.

http://search.datasheetcatalog.net/key/2N2222A (http://search.datasheetcatalog.net/key/2N2222A) This one was set for the 2n2222a but you plunk your transistor in question into the search bar and you go. I think it gets to these transformers too maybe.?

btw, it seems the ones we have been using fall under the category of "switching transistors" which is what I think we want.

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 05, 2009, 03:58:39 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on February 05, 2009, 03:20:19 PM
.68pf dont do what it does on the JT . Will fix it better than it is now later .. 12 ma is good but i think we can do better . Onlt think i see is 20 pf instead of 20 pot

Choose the one you want.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 05, 2009, 04:04:23 PM

Quote from: xee2 on February 05, 2009, 01:41:49 AM
@ jenna

I replaced my 1,000 pF base cap with 10,000 pF and performance was about the same but not quite as good. So for me, it looks like I should not go higher than 1,000 pF.

Thanks for the link to the article. It was interesting that he was using base caps.

Hi xee2,
I haven't found one yet that IMPROVES performance. I have just put in a 102pF at the base resistor that filled in between where the rest took me yesterday. But, still, no matter what I put into the battery spot, there is an amperage hit. (the hit is only 10 mA, ) but I wonder why it is there?

What is it supposed to be doing? Is this another "tank"spot?

thank you,

jeanna

I need to re-find my good source for good cheap leds. I do not consider $1 to be good and cheap. Any leads for leds?

EDIT. I actually have found it, but, hopefully there is an omission in their webpage. The only item missing is the single white led, although there is an actual link to the item. I emailed them.

With luck we will have a really good source. I paid $19 for 50 bright leds a few years ago. The prices look the same on all the other items. With fingers crossed...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 05, 2009, 04:07:45 PM

Quote from: Koen1 on February 05, 2009, 09:30:15 AM
... just an idea; you could make such a wheel yourself, just make a little wheel
with a slide contact and separate contact sections connected to each individual
resistor with all of the resistors connected to the outer rim, then connect the wires
to the central connector and the rim, and slide away... that way you'd only have
to solder the thing together once... ;)

O K .. would be nice but dang look at all the packs of resistors you would have to buy then make something : a Wheel with contacts .. that are good and solid connections . too much more work than just buying every single resistor and just soldering them there :) But If that would be the case ( money ) and it came down to it i probably would try it if the world depended on me for something . :) you know war and energy Crisis's and

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on February 05, 2009, 04:11:37 PM

If we take a flyback transformer and pulse it a 15kz 300volt pp input the transformer will take it up to 30 thousand volts at 15kz pulsed dc. That is a voltage multiplier of 100. Now say you have a capacitor that holds on to the 30kv. Now you discharge this into a theoretical o ohm load. The resulting amperage would be 30,000 divided by o. Zero goes into 30,000 alot of times. So give your resistor a value of .1 ohms. Your amperage will now be 300,000 amps. Put an inductive coupling around this amperage flow and you will get some surprising results. The problem is that at this high a voltage you won't get close to the capacitor before it starts discharging through the air whose resistance is quite high. That is why Tesla made sure his zero resistor was already attached to the capacitor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 05, 2009, 04:29:50 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on February 05, 2009, 03:58:39 PM
Choose the one you want.

Jesus

Oh i hate TEST ::) B ..... or the top right one is the correct except one leg is cut off the pot Nieves . thank you . . i posted that it should of connected to 2 because the 2 was across the transformer but looking at it again i see its the same connection and you showed that .. thank you .. was right except for the 20 pot is 20k pot and there is a break in the leg so no connection on the far end of pot . Nice of you to put up those . I couldn't tell nothing from that one that had a box for a transformer on it before your collection of real schematics ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 05, 2009, 05:34:01 PM

I will try to upload the 2 pdf's I have,

The first on this post is 84K and is the full spec sheet on the transistor in gadgetmall's fuji mod.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 05, 2009, 05:36:28 PM

Good that worked. Now for a looong page with cryptic details. If you compare the specs page given above with the shortened details given on this data sheet, you will be better able to use the data sheet.

Here is the datasheet:

http://www.orpheuscomputing.com/technicians/transistor_specs.html

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 05, 2009, 05:37:19 PM

Quote from: jeanna on February 05, 2009, 04:04:23 PM
Hi xee2,
I haven't found one yet that IMPROVES performance. I have just put in a 102pF at the base resistor that filled in between where the rest took me yesterday. But, still, no matter what I put into the base, there is an amperage hit. (the hit is only 10 mA, ) but I wonder why it is there?

What is it supposed to be doing? Is this another "tank"spot?

thank you,

jeanna

I need to re-find my good source for good cheap leds. I do not consider $1 to be good and cheap. Any leads for leds?

EDIT. I actually have found it, but, hopefully there is an omission in their webpage. The only item missing is the single white led, although there is an actual link to the item. I emailed them.

With luck we will have a really good source. I paid $19 for 50 bright leds a few years ago. The prices look the same on all the other items. With fingers crossed...

in reference to cheap white leds . at flea markets athey sell a ring light that has 22 bright 1 watt luxor leds on them for 3 bucks . this light takes 4 aa batterys and i converted them over to JT one batts . i took one apart and cut all the little bright led out . each has its own little circuit board to solder leads on :) Look and see if you have ever seen these. The chinese with all the boxes of stuff allways have little flashlight with bunches of leds in them for cheap !!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 05, 2009, 06:54:18 PM

@all

I do expect that now it will be correct.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 05, 2009, 06:58:40 PM

Thanks gadgetmall,

I just have a hard time breaking into something that works.

Also, I am thinking ahead to making a joule thief party and showing other people how to do this etc. There is enough of a barrier to getting folks to make their own (except for experimenters like us) so, I wanted something clean and new for them.

If this company still sells them 35-40 cents each is pretty nice for a matched batch of leds.

Thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 05, 2009, 07:09:27 PM

@ Jeanna,
Those 2 transister charts were a very good find, I just downloaded them.
Well done Jeanna

@ Mk1
What Post or Page is the stuff you want me to take a look at?

@ Gadgetmall,
Very nice sewing on your mobius coil, I sent u a PM

To those wanting to make your own resistance wheel, it is not hard to do, just buy all the different resisters and a multi position switch, a couple of leads and tiny alligator clips.

Same to make a capacitance wheel

But out this way, the best switch has 1 pole 12 position, which limits how many resisters one can use.
An alternative would be to use a CB radio 40 chanel switch, but I have never tried to see if they are 1 position or multi position, anyone know? I will tear one apart this weekend and get back to all lol.

@ Bill
Hows your cat progressing, hope he is getting better now.

BTW, Bill the peanut butter trap got a mousie, must a got him a few days ago, he crawled away into a dark area, I missed him, smelled a pong yesterday, found it this mornin, smell was real bad. Phew, I'm airing the place, fans going full blast, sprayed the dissinfectant lol.

got to think up a way to keep the peanut butter on a trap without the mouse gobbling up all the PB.
Would a sponge do?

hooroo
jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 05, 2009, 07:22:25 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on February 05, 2009, 06:54:18 PM
@all

I do expect that now it will be correct.

Jesus

Its perfect GM mod !
@electricme .. thanks abunch . about the peanutbutter . just put a tiny smear in and around the trap mechanism ,under the trip behind the trip .. so he has to go in a little farther and Lick it . Don't Feed em :))) They Love the smell of it .....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 05, 2009, 07:28:59 PM

Quote from: jeanna on February 05, 2009, 06:58:40 PM
Thanks gadgetmall,

I just have a hard time breaking into something that works.

Also, I am thinking ahead to making a joule thief party and showing other people how to do this etc. There is enough of a barrier to getting folks to make their own (except for experimenters like us) so, I wanted something clean and new for them.

If this company still sells them 35-40 cents each is pretty nice for a matched batch of leds.

Thanks,

Jeanna

Sure i understand about breaking something .Another idea is you can buy 100 led strings for about a buck . Some of the Christmas lights actually have a "JEWEL" on them that refracts the light and makes them brighter . I got some of those too . Big lots has 25 led strings for 50 cent that run off a little 3 battery pack with a switch . i converted them also . they are bright and "Neat with the little box/switch .. Just an idea . I show My brother how to make one today . and mom want one also ,she takes those clear glass bricks and drills a hole in it then stuffs with Christmas lights in it . It looks Cool ..As for the JT party suggestion would be to stress the importance of how to recycle junk and inefficient ring light etc that take 3 or 4 aa batteries and show them the Alternative advantage of a converted one . i know that ring light lasted 1 day and a half with 4 AA batteries . Now it last for weeks with one AA battery - alternatives to "Clean"stuff . Just a packrats thoughts .. i reuse everything and pass it on ..
Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 05, 2009, 09:52:06 PM

Quote from: sparks on February 05, 2009, 04:11:37 PM
If we take a flyback transformer and pulse it a 15kz 300volt pp input the transformer will take it up to 30 thousand volts at 15kz pulsed dc. That is a voltage multiplier of 100. Now say you have a capacitor that holds on to the 30kv. Now you discharge this into a theoretical o ohm load. The resulting amperage would be 30,000 divided by o. Zero goes into 30,000 alot of times. So give your resistor a value of .1 ohms. Your amperage will now be 300,000 amps. Put an inductive coupling around this amperage flow and you will get some surprising results. The problem is that at this high a voltage you won't get close to the capacitor before it starts discharging through the air whose resistance is quite high. That is why Tesla made sure his zero resistor was already attached to the capacitor.

got your hat on sparks??

probally a good spot for it ...!! :)

@ gadget i have 2 of those rings too 1 is modded with a 5 turn jt it has gone days with a dead battery .... so 1.5 days from 4 eh

O BUT THIS AINT PROOF ...... THEY WANT METER READINGS ..... BLA BLA BLA TELL THEM WHY IT WORKS THEY DONT WANT THAT .........

WELL NO GRASP SIMPLE SH!T NO GET GOOD SH!T ;)
finally i found a fugi unfourtanally it aint the right one ... but i will play with is says quick charge flash .... i got 2 of them ...

next

got another really kool electronic part ......... lol

but hey should i post it .... lol i type how i do dont like it dont read it :P 8) i will change for no one!

what i found was this it looks to be a torroide .... wound similar to a jt ... altho there is more to it ... ;D

i dont think your ready so i will not post it YET

ist!
BTW the part i speek of is i bet ya 40 years old ....... :o

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 05, 2009, 10:47:49 PM

ist what is it . I'm ready ...i'm ready :)
@All
in case anyone is interested i put up a new video . unrelated to jt . its a rebuttal powersupplybedini inside view for some dude who left some serious accusations . i deleted most of them . he is comwarrior69 i believe . ..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aspnQPnaj1g

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 05, 2009, 10:58:32 PM

beleave me i did try to post it bro .....

i will try with this post

ist

NOW IS THAT SOME COOL SH!T OR WHAT?!?!?! ;D

HEY THINK THERE IS 4 SMALL WINDINGS ON THE RING ?? or you think the outter coils are pulse .... there is only 3 coils to this unit 1 wound on a ring the other 2 you see

WELL WELL WELL at a closer look :o o my ... 4 transistors switching the torroide off and on ..... hummmmmmmmmm meaning the coil on the ferroite ring ...... outer must be pick up coils ........

lookie lookie lookie ... pnp and npn imagine ..... want the transistor # too ..... c2655 y 7e a1020 y 7d

they are like this on the board c a c a

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hartiberlin on February 05, 2009, 11:32:12 PM

Quote from: xee2 on February 04, 2009, 04:15:08 PM
I tried the neon JT with a different toroid and it required changing the base resistor to 500 ohms to light the neon.

The Transistor must be able to handle about 90 Volts Collector to Emitter Voltage,
so if you use a lower voltage type transistor it might smoke !
Otherwise well done !

Regards, Stefan.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 06, 2009, 12:21:09 AM

I found some more about mag amp. Remember they can be used for a lots of things even switching stuff also as a regulator, not unlike the jt.

http://focus.ti.com/lit/ml/slup129/slup129.pdf

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 06, 2009, 12:33:07 AM

Well there it is. Nathan Stubblefield's make and break right in his design. It is what I have always thought he meant. And this sez it.

jeanna

btw
I just bought 280 leds for $75 Darn. I have to mess with the christmas wires now! ;) but I guess 27 cents each with diffuser included really is an OK price. I sure hope they are good ones.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 06, 2009, 12:45:55 AM

best hong kong .... led ;)

i have seen some cheep depends on how many you want....

ist!

make and break is only a small part of it it is your engery source GOOD OLD TRANSMIT AND RECIEVE ....

LOL.... THE KICK .... NOW WE FINALLY CAUGHT UP WITH TESLA ..... IN 1888 LOL!!!!

so what is the rest you ask ....... that is your choise .... it is what you do with it that really makes the diffrance ..... im sure i can get ou with out the use of hemf .... or bemf or cemf or what ever you call it today ... lol

there many ways the jt is a toy to teach ... bout the engery you will use to power your toys ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 06, 2009, 01:29:56 AM

@ Jeanna:

Just got back from work a bit ago. Heck, I bought all of my 400 led Christmas lights for less than $18.00. If I had waited until after Christmas, I could have obtained all strings of 100 for about $3.00 ea 100.

Now I have to go back and read all of the many posts I missed.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 06, 2009, 02:15:14 AM

@all

Interesting effect of neo on joule thief from Kubikup http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvJzbcv2nac&feature=channel_page , This guy should be joining us. Ok he uses 12 volts on this one but a really imaginative gentleman .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gk7pCfWOvU&feature=channel_page .This one has scope shots .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjJ4Pk5OrDU&feature=channel_page this one scope with neo ( it doubles the freq)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 06, 2009, 02:21:54 AM

Great video! Yes, I hope he does join us. I used a neo many, many pages ago to increase the output from my JT circuit. (I was just pointing this out for the record.) I believe IST did this also. This was how I got my first two 48" tubes to light fully.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 06, 2009, 02:23:01 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 06, 2009, 01:29:56 AM
@ Jeanna:

Just got back from work a bit ago. Heck, I bought all of my 400 led Christmas lights for less than $18.00. If I had waited until after Christmas, I could have obtained all strings of 100 for about $3.00 ea 100.

Now I have to go back and read all of the many posts I missed.

Bill

Yup, I know. I almost backed out, but then I looked around and they are really the cheapest around. Buying just the lights is over $1 a piece, and the place where I got the ones I used 30 of in my array doesn't show them anymore, but they were $18 for 50 of them. sheesh (to quote gadgetmall) So, I paid 15 for 70 with diffusers. they will light my house for years. I already have 3 strings in 3 rooms. so, fine.
---

I have a question about the string.

Do I need to short the plug ends to make it work?

I wasn't able to light my string with the secondary off my regular jt last week, and I am wondering what direction to go.

I have just finished one with 5+11 primary and 120 secondary. I can cut off the 11 down to 5 after the test if it doesn't work well, but I am wondering if the shorting the plug wires is the key to what will make this work? I don't remember if you got your strings to light with a regular jt or just the fuji. I nearly blew my led string with the fuji, so I won't go there again.

I still need to strip the varnish off the secondary. I will in the morning.

Welcome back.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 06, 2009, 02:31:23 AM

Jeanna:

I only shorted the plug to perform the one wire experiment. The Christmas lights are set for ac so, you can hook up your wires without any worry about polarity. That is what I did in all of my videos. It made no difference.

Trust me on your led price. I know what you mean. I was paying like $2.25/led at my radio shack!!!!!! So, when I could get 100 for $12.00, I jumped at it. Then, the price kept going down. I almost did not buy my last 100 (total of 400) until I saw they were under three bucks! I love the free market. I got a thing in the mail today (which I tossed) that said i could buy an led light bulb, for a limited time only, that has 10 superbright leds on it, and replace my incandescent bulb, for only.....$69.95!!!!!! Holy crap!!! I can make 10 light bulbs for that much and they will be brighter due to the JT circuits.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 06, 2009, 02:33:09 AM

@Pirate

Yes ist did , first and must has inspired many to try, This one shows it on a scope http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjJ4Pk5OrDU&feature=channel_page.

I only got the idea of adding a Pickup coil, That is my part (page 21), but i don't feel the need to remind everyone, but then bedini did it first like the magnet part, now we just know what we are dealing with.

Everyone is needed !

Thank, again for the great topic!

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 06, 2009, 08:34:51 AM

@jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on February 06, 2009, 12:33:07 AM
btw
I just bought 280 leds for $75 Darn. I have to mess with the christmas wires now! ;) but I guess 27 cents each with diffuser included really is an OK price. I sure hope they are good ones.

WOW . I wish i had 75 dollars to spend on LED . I could have bought 6000 white Bright !!
these are very bright and pretty too My daughters jewel Thief

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 06, 2009, 08:42:56 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 06, 2009, 02:15:14 AM
@all

Interesting effect of neo on joule thief from Kubikup http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvJzbcv2nac&feature=channel_page , This guy should be joining us. Ok he uses 12 volts on this one but a really imaginative gentleman .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gk7pCfWOvU&feature=channel_page .This one has scope shots .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjJ4Pk5OrDU&feature=channel_page this one scope with neo ( it doubles the freq)

i tried the pelitier effect on that other video link (LIdmotor)and I can not get any voltage at all from induction . i did it exactly like he did . i grounded one end to real earth and have a lamp like his . No induction at all . I tried wrapping the module with wire and feed a JT thew it . nothing. i tried the high mag field off my bedini . nothing . His ground must be stuck in a telephone wire :) Or he has a screwed up meter .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on February 06, 2009, 08:43:00 AM

Hi All;

Here are some pics of the fuji circuit boards I have. I am trying to figure out how to do gadetmall's mod but realized that my boards have 6 connections on the transformer while the schematics posted earlier show only 5.

Can anyone offer any advice on how to proceed if possible?

Thanks,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 06, 2009, 09:01:48 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 06, 2009, 02:33:09 AM
@Pirate

Yes ist did , first and must has inspired many to try, This one shows it on a scope http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjJ4Pk5OrDU&feature=channel_page.

I only got the idea of adding a Pickup coil, That is my part (page 21), but i don't feel the need to remind everyone, but then bedini did it first like the magnet part, now we just know what we are dealing with.

Everyone is needed !

Thank, again for the great topic!

Mark

I knew there was a part of this new Jt that was you in there somewhere thats why i changed the credits to MK1fusionjenna :LPJT on the schematic i made .Yes we are all needed and need to Build on this thing . we are getting there and all the pieces thru out this Entire thread (i already reread it twice including the side links) are what is giving My inspiration . So when are you going to give out a complete mag amp circuit . Have we gone that far . i don't understand that last post about when saturated it produces the most . why not just use Neos ? I am ready to Fire up something . I got a NEW TUBE FOR MY pulse GENERATOR Yesterday for 1 dollar SO I WILL BE PLAYING WITH THAT. funfunfun .....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 06, 2009, 09:08:44 AM

@goat

Try this one.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 06, 2009, 09:16:41 AM

i used a hard drive magnet i posted this a long time ago in the tpu threds i cant remember when 6 months now maybe more

yep my 15 bulbs got brighter with the magnet

so guys

iv been takeing things apart as i always do ....

i have striped down a few flybacks for the cores ... they are perfect ... 2 parts with a tiny gap ps dont loose the lil plastic peice in between the cores

lots of room for turns... 8)

i have many things im building but agin i cant show them all ....some are advanced to advanced for ou ...

but we will plugg away with what i can post bout

ist

my fugi's are diffrent they have small transformers .. i will take a pic .. they use a aaa transistor reads c5765 2l

for whatever it is worth it says quick charge flash

i have not played them yet.....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 06, 2009, 09:23:44 AM

Quote from: Goat on February 06, 2009, 08:43:00 AM
Hi All;

Here are some pics of the fuji circuit boards I have. I am trying to figure out how to do gadetmall's mod but realized that my boards have 6 connections on the transformer while the schematics posted earlier show only 5.

Can anyone offer any advice on how to proceed if possible?

Thanks,
Paul

yes . JUST REPLACE the 220 ohm resistor with a 10-20k pot and short the diode. this will reduce the base bias . your 3/4 there when you do that . then just experiment with a PF cap . not UF in different places until you hit a spot where you see the voltage get higher then adjust your bias again .You have the correct 5 lead one . if you notice one is not soldered !! this is the exact one i have ! and the transformer is big so looks good . hook your load up to the HV hcap terminals . DO NOT READ THE VOLTAGE UNLESS YOUR METER WILL GO OVER 2000 volts ac . read it with a diode on one lead .you can use a clf to determine the voltage you desire .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 06, 2009, 09:44:51 AM

want the truth ....

the jt needs to charge hv caps ..... acomplish this .... your more then done .... ;)

GADGET... can you charge a hv cap fast ? like 2kv or 5 kv.... from a aa battery ... i do mean fast ....

if you can ... we will proceed if not this stair must be climbed first ... we have not touched conversion yet ..... :o

i dont like going hv as there too many newbiees to get hurt from this .... dont think it will kill you but it will hurt ....

gadget have you tryed the cfl driver ... if you look close in the cfl you will see a properly wound jt ;)

i took a pic... lol

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 06, 2009, 10:30:33 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 06, 2009, 02:15:14 AM
@all

Interesting effect of neo on joule thief from Kubikup http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvJzbcv2nac&feature=channel_page , This guy should be joining us. Ok he uses 12 volts on this one but a really imaginative gentleman .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gk7pCfWOvU&feature=channel_page .This one has scope shots .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjJ4Pk5OrDU&feature=channel_page this one scope with neo ( it doubles the freq)

maybe he was already here ..... ;)

ist! ;D

is it ok if i point the way lol ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 06, 2009, 10:38:54 AM

@ist
Hey william . I dont have many caps (Single ) that will hold more than 1500 volts . I cannot charge all them up at the same time with a jt or fugi . I do have a little cylinder power supply for an old navy night scope that will produce 50,000 volts from a 1.5 volt button cell now its neat . the little tip on it hisses and you can feel air coming off it and it smells real nice :) like rain after a thunder storm in the spring time :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 06, 2009, 10:51:24 AM

yes indeed lots of ways

i have a few of thease tooo 8) 8) 8)

what is it agin an ionizer .... lol

a marx generator !!!!!!! lol

but the point is the jt can do this ....

lets make a new challange

A BUTTON CELL .... POWERED JT .... that can charge kv caps....

you can use multi caps to achive the desired kv...

ist!

ok in this pic you see a 2n 3906 :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 06, 2009, 11:43:12 AM

WOW this OLD UNIT PULSE GENERATOR IS AWESOME !! . .300 to 54 volts neg or positive pulses 1cycle to 2.5 MC . I am playing with some toroids at 7.5 KC :) picture later .. !!!!
AL

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xenomorphlabs on February 06, 2009, 11:46:59 AM

@gadgetmal : Like with the Fuji boards, Lidmotor`s Peltier module seems to be unique. It would be nice to find out the exact module that he has got. I asked him on youtube about the wattage, but he doesnt know it. I figure his is either very small or very large, still trying to understand the effect at all.
What wattage does yours have?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on February 06, 2009, 12:01:37 PM

You can make your own picofarad capacitors out of aluminum foil and styrofoam cups. Charging a low voltage high farad rated capacitor is not the way to go. Takes too much time. Amperage equals voltage divided by resistance. Nothing in there about charge.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 06, 2009, 02:18:57 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on February 06, 2009, 08:34:51 AM
@jeanna WOW . I wish i had 75 dollars to spend on LED .

Me too! :)

QuoteI could have bought 6000 white Bright !!

Where, at flea markets? [they don't exist here. I used to go the montsweeg flea in Maine but no such animal out west.] or somewhere I can also go? I'd still like more. {big lots online doesn't have any.)
I got a reply from the company I bought mine from and they are phasing out the single leds.-- just selling products, now.
I want to push it and see how far it goes. My strings are series circuits. I need 120 volts from my transformer. I gotta do that now.Then I will see if I can light one of them up. I couldn't when I tried before. Maybe this 5+11 primary, with 120 secondary will do it.

Quotethese are very bright and pretty too My daughters jewel Thief

yes, very bright.
I think the diffuser is really important. The little crystal-ly part makes the light seem brighter because it goes all around the room.

Now, did you just cut the wire of the string and hook it up to your daughter's jt?

I am about to sand the ends of my 120 turns...

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 06, 2009, 02:40:13 PM

i have this cfl driver anyone know the output of this thing is .... and if we replaced the input cap and charged it with a jt will it run ??

the cfl curcuit? and we use the cfl to charge a hv cap ?

sound possible ?

ist?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 06, 2009, 04:27:15 PM

@gadgetmall

I got a feeling the a amplification mag amp because they are used to do so many things, a jt with a pickup coil is it,
If you look at the scope shot by kubikop , on each cycle you got 1 wire one and one switching , so you got constant dc, and ac(pulse dc)
and a out coil its sound so much like a tpu, when you but a neo on the toroid it give it a constant dc so the coil that did that now become a ac(dc pulse )coil so it doubles the switching and time, The toroids are very good at keeping the eddy current in the core i did not think it would give it would generate much on a pelltier , in is lamp is a regular transformer(more eddy current), also pelletier module are also polarity , the earth ground i see it as a negative on a battery giving a level of 0volt bottom , it may be lower that 0 . Hall generator may work better , at some point a toroid with a gcut in it will need to be tested a hall sensor in the hole.

@ist

nice picture , are they a transformer or a magnetron from that microwave ? Have you found the magnets?

And there is a step up transformer in the cfl bulbs, also in the fuji circuit the trigger coil not used by anyone here yet, in the cam circuit it steps up 300v to 5000 v yep that little transformer.

@electricme

The last post from page 237.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 06, 2009, 04:57:50 PM

mk1

i got this little plasma bulb ...... dont think it uses much power ... it was my daughters it burnt out .... has a real nice hv transformer in it ;)

glad you know :)

i guess if we used the out of the little transformer through a high freq diode .... we can charge a hv cap .... but i think the freq on the cam unit is too low ...

ist

so i ended up at dollar ramma today ... i found some solar lights ... a steal 2 bucks each .. ;D you get 1 aaa nicad rechargeable battery ... a charge controller a solar pannel a super bright led and a cool jt ring holder when your done .... lol

i have 3 of them been playing with them ... when i get a led real close {thease are tiny solar garden lights} to the pannel i read .7 volts .... wow ... 1 led

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 06, 2009, 05:43:49 PM

Hi everyone,

@MK1 I really do agree with you about the mag thing you have found. I think it is right up this same alley.
===
I have some results

Thinking about fuji ckt again, I am curious about the 3 coils being different number of turns. So, I wound a toroid with the same bifilar wires for 5 turns, then continued with only one of those wires til it was turned a total of 12 times. Then I added 120 turns for a secondary.

The circuit is the basic one. 2N3904, 1Kr Resistor at base 4 LEDs in parallel arrangement running off the secondary.

The regular results of this arrangement are:
without the lights it draws 21.8mA
with the lights it draws 24.6mA
This is new, Once before, when adding lights in parallel, the amps actually dropped.

The rectified voltage in 2 ways with the circuit like this is
42rectified volts
41.1 rectified volts

That is pretty high, I think.

Then,
At the base I added a second resistor 4.7Kr and a cap of different amounts and looked at these results.

First, with the 4.7k resistor added the amps draw became 8.3mA
I tried all the same caps as yesterday and maybe there is a sweet spot. But without all that fiddling, the caps all made the amp draw increase to around 10.3mA

Then I began to unwind the extra winds of that primary bifilar from 12 down to 5 which matches the other wire and so is the usual even bifilar with 5+5 winds.

(the 100pF cap is still || with the 4.7r resistor below the base resistor.)
like so:
5+11=8.7mA
5+10=8.3mA
5+9=7.9mA
5+8=7.5mA
5+7=5.8mA
5+5=6.0mA
5+5=6.1mA

So, the amps draw goes down as the number of turns goes to 5+7 then rises again. :o

The rectified voltage with the 5+5 turns has also dropped and is now
21.4volts rectified and
22.3 volts rectified

So, there you are. Any ideas?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 06, 2009, 07:35:58 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 06, 2009, 04:27:15 PM
@gadgetmall

also in the fuji circuit the trigger coil not used by anyone here yet, in the cam circuit it steps up 300v to 5000 v yep that little transformer.

Umm, if you go way back and take a look at my photos on how I have always used the modified Fuji circuit, the wiring includes the trigger coil. It always has the way I have it hooked up. I originally did that just to make the connection to the board stronger (mechanically) but it turned out to be a happy accident.

Bill ***EDIT*** I do not mean to imply that I am getting anywhere near the 5,000 volts you describe, it is actually closer to 600 which is a lot higher than Josepino was reporting so, I figure the difference must be in the wiring involving the trigger coil, as this is the main difference. It would be nice to fully utilize that little coil. Do you think it would stand up to continuous duty as it was designed for very brief, occasional pulses? I guess we could give one the smoke test.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 06, 2009, 07:36:10 PM

@ jeanna

I think you have missed a few key ideas. When you add the base cap the current from the battery will increase. BUT, so will the output voltage. Now, if you keep the cap in and INCREASE the base resistor value until the output voltage is the SAME as it was with the original resistor before you added the cap, THEN you will find you are getting the same output voltage with less battery current. The same type of thing works with the unequal turns. If you increase the collector turns the battery current will increase but so will the output voltage and if you adjust the base resistor to get back to the original output voltage you will find that the battery is using less current. By doing both, you can get the same output voltage with much less battery current.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 06, 2009, 07:59:45 PM

@xee2,
Thank you.
I had a feeling I wasn't finished with that nasty variable resistor thing.

I will do these things. I agree I do miss these concepts.

also, yesterday I fumbled a question to you and I'd like to re-ask it. Please explain the reason you use a cap across the battery?

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 06, 2009, 08:20:26 PM

@ jeanna

You should use a big cap across battery. It may not be needed if you are only drawing a small current from the battery but I think you should still use it. These techniques of reducing battery current work by pulsing the output. With the cap, the battery can supply a larger current when the circuit pulses on.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 06, 2009, 08:31:18 PM

Quote from: xenomorphlabs on February 06, 2009, 11:46:59 AM
@gadgetmal : Like with the Fuji boards, Lidmotor`s Peltier module seems to be unique. It would be nice to find out the exact module that he has got. I asked him on youtube about the wattage, but he doesnt know it. I figure his is either very small or very large, still trying to understand the effect at all.
What wattage does yours have?

I have % of them 2 were ripped out of a big refrigerator 12 volts 1 .5 inches square 3 i bought there 60cm 55 watt all 12 volt about 2 3 inches square . the three i bought are the biggest you can buy and are 55 watt . They will freeze a drop of water if you keep the other side heat sinked and of coarse they will hit 195 degrees in a few seconds . i tried them all . He is picking something else up i suspect . maybe not .. all pelitier modules are built the same its just the area thats different . thus the wattage .. i can light up a couple jewelthiefs with just hand heat with them cool on the other side ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on February 06, 2009, 08:34:31 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 06, 2009, 04:27:15 PM

And there is a step up transformer in the cfl bulbs, also in the fuji circuit the trigger coil not used by anyone here yet, in the cam circuit it steps up 300v to 5000 v yep that little transformer.

in my cfls, what look like a transformer is not a transformer.
only 2 pins are wired, it is an inductor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 06, 2009, 08:48:57 PM

you think it can be used to generate some big spikes !?!?!?

ist

looks like lots of turns on the square feroite core .....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on February 06, 2009, 09:07:38 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on February 06, 2009, 08:48:57 PM
you think it can be used to generate some big spikes !?!?!?

ist

looks like lots of turns on the square feroite core .....

if only there were space to fit a few primary turn...
those who will try will know. :)

maybe if i take out the wrapping plastic i could probably add a primary on top of it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 06, 2009, 09:15:53 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 06, 2009, 07:35:58 PM
Umm, if you go way back and take a look at my photos on how I have always used the modified Fuji circuit, the wiring includes the trigger coil. It always has the way I have it hooked up. I originally did that just to make the connection to the board stronger (mechanically) but it turned out to be a happy accident.

Bill ***EDIT*** I do not mean to imply that I am getting anywhere near the 5,000 volts you describe, it is actually closer to 600 which is a lot higher than Josepino was reporting so, I figure the difference must be in the wiring involving the trigger coil, as this is the main difference. It would be nice to fully utilize that little coil. Do you think it would stand up to continuous duty as it was designed for very brief, occasional pulses? I guess we could give one the smoke test.

I have hooked it up and got over 1000 volts . its just one wire jumped from the shorted diode to the single post on the trigger ,solder side .that trace also goes to the trigger switch which don't need to be shorted . you see two on the same foil then one . thats the one to engage it . Its on My 45 watt cfl .. It works for me but the current draw is higher and i only get 11 hours of light :) 12.5 on the 15 watt ::)

@jEANNA .
about the cheap leds the best time to get those is right after Christmas . close outs .. the bright leds are plug in just like regular leds . you just bend the two little ends and the led comes right off like a normal led with leads . there is also Spares in every string so i got three EXTRA icicle plugin in replacement light so i didn't have to cut anything on my Christmas light . The other little battery operated strings you have to cut the little wires if you want green leads . lights and just used the bulb base with the icicle's

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on February 06, 2009, 09:24:03 PM

Quote from: electricme on February 05, 2009, 07:09:27 PM

got to think up a way to keep the peanut butter on a trap without the mouse gobbling up all the PB.
Would a sponge do?

Jim

A way to keep the peanut butter on the trap might be to drill small holes in the trip plate and fill the holes with peanut butter .....the oil in the peanut butter will soak into the wood and the scent will last a long time .

An easier way ......and one that doesn't leave your house smelling like peanut butter is to use a small piece of bone .......I usually cut the end off a chicken leg bone ......then use a wire tie to fasten it to the trip plate .........Mice love to chew on things and REQUIRE calcium ..... the bone will be irresistible .......and can be used over and over .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 06, 2009, 10:06:14 PM

Quote from: jeanna on February 06, 2009, 05:43:49 PM
Hi everyone,

@MK1 I really do agree with you about the mag thing you have found. I think it is right up this same alley.
===
I have some results

Thinking about fuji ckt again, I am curious about the 3 coils being different number of turns. So, I wound a toroid with the same bifilar wires for 5 turns, then continued with only one of those wires til it was turned a total of 12 times. Then I added 120 turns for a secondary.

The circuit is the basic one. 2N3904, 1Kr Resistor at base 4 LEDs in parallel arrangement running off the secondary.

The regular results of this arrangement are:
without the lights it draws 21.8mA
with the lights it draws 24.6mA
This is new, Once before, when adding lights in parallel, the amps actually dropped.

The rectified voltage in 2 ways with the circuit like this is
42rectified volts
41.1 rectified volts

That is pretty high, I think.

Then,
At the base I added a second resistor 4.7Kr and a cap of different amounts and looked at these results.

First, with the 4.7k resistor added the amps draw became 8.3mA
I tried all the same caps as yesterday and maybe there is a sweet spot. But without all that fiddling, the caps all made the amp draw increase to around 10.3mA

Then I began to unwind the extra winds of that primary bifilar from 12 down to 5 which matches the other wire and so is the usual even bifilar with 5+5 winds.

(the 100pF cap is still || with the 4.7r resistor below the base resistor.)
like so:
5+11=8.7mA
5+10=8.3mA
5+9=7.9mA
5+8=7.5mA
5+7=5.8mA

I suggest you wind a toroid with 3+5 and see if the same patron prevails. Also it coud be 7+9.
It seems that two less orr two more makes the best difference.

Quote
5+5=6.0mA
5+5=6.1mA

So, the amps draw goes down as the number of turns goes to 5+7 then rises again. :o

The rectified voltage with the 5+5 turns has also dropped and is now
21.4volts rectified and
22.3 volts rectified

So, there you are. Any ideas?

jeanna

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 06, 2009, 10:36:28 PM

@jesus,
Thank you for your suggestion. Is there anyone else that is seeing that 2 makes a difference?

@xee2, so the cap across the battery which appears to offer nothing, is protecting the circuit and allowing a spike to be there faster than a battery would?

@all,
About the circuit with the uneven turns. I see nothing non-linear here as much as I try. I can run down all the numbers for you if someone wants. I am happy to do that. Here is the recap.

The basic circuit with its
1k base resistor, the
2N3904 transistor,
a VR in place below the base with its cap || to it. but the VR is set to zero...and
5+5 bifilar with 120 turns secondary
the secondary to the leds :

The rectified voltage of the secondary is 34.6V both ways
The amp draw is 16.8mA

As I added turns to the primary collector coil the rectified volts AND the amps both went up.

Any time I turned the variable resistor with its parallel cap to anything above zero all the way to 10.8K the amperage went down, but the rectified voltage did too.

--

So, it is all fine to light leds with low amperage and the high voltage which is oscillating, but I am not yet prepared to think I am getting near to replicating this fuji transformer.

The fuji circuit has a clear metallic capacitor in a place that is not on the base of the transistor, I think. This is not the big-mama cap, but something that seems to point towards the second coil which could be a relay. I don't want to add more than one thing to my jt coil at a time and this base cap has not been beefing up my circuit.

@gadgetmall, I am trying to remember if the joule thief basic is where you have added this 68pF cap? I think it is. Do you have any suggestions here?

@MK1 / Ist,
When you count the rectified volts, are you adding the 2 directions together? If the rectified volts read 39v each way is that considered 39vac? or is it 78vac?

@jim,
How about a have-a-heart trap with the modifications that after they are in the trap they go down a hallway to a hamster running wheel which is hooked up to an induction generator? Maybe they can cook your morning coffee. That way, you both win. ;D

Thank you,

jeanna

PS I think kubikop is just showing the peltier effect can go both ways. Really, he boiled water for one side, and he used ice cubes for the other and lit a led for 10 minutes. This is interesting but does not show efficiency. IMHO Now, if a peltier doodad can be run by the high frequency voltage coming off a joule thief, that would be very exciting. In my next order from allelectronics I will get the one they have for $14. It is too high priced for a usual order from them, (especially after those leds) but it is a question I want answered.

Hey Gadgetmall, wanna try it?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 06, 2009, 11:18:47 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on February 06, 2009, 10:36:28 PM
allowing a spike to be there faster than a battery would?

Yes.

Is your secondary coil split into two separate coils? When you give secondary voltages each way, is that the voltages for the two parts of the secondary coil?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 06, 2009, 11:32:06 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXo4-gYBczc

My cat is feeling a bit better so I made a quick video of 100 leds running off a single 2.3 volt, 10 F supercap which is powering the modified Fuji circuit. I am considering ordering a 100 farad cap tonight. Have to check finances first.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 06, 2009, 11:39:13 PM

@jeanna

Remember i got 4 coils 2 pickup coil, i don't even look at the coil voltage both ways , there usually about the same once rectified,

On this picture you see output from pickup coil 1 in red for 67 volts, and 2 in blue for the second 67 volts , all the test are done with the same design of 4 coils , i did it on many different core, and the output is really adjusted by the resistor that goes to the transistor base, on this core 1k is a ok , but not for the other ones. Each different toroid of ferrite or powdered iron will work but at there own speed (adjusted by the resistor) and induction, some need more coil turn some less (on the jt side)for getting enough induction for a good pickup coil output.

This core dark green works at 1k when used with a 2n3904
The yellow with white edge needs 5 ohm with a 2n3904
The green with a blue edge needs a 55 ohm with a 2n3904
The green with a red edge is under testing
All those are the same size toroid

@all

By the way , to me iron rust is iron even if baked in ceramic over , ferrite is mostly iron and powder iron or not it will work when done right , in french "fer" means iron.

Mark

I got pc issue damn the trojan! I getting harder and harder to be with you friends.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 06, 2009, 11:44:31 PM

double post --- sorry

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 06, 2009, 11:47:53 PM

Quote from: xee2 on February 06, 2009, 11:18:47 PM
Is your secondary coil split into two separate coils? When you give secondary voltages each way, is that the voltages for the two parts of the secondary coil?

No, It was something MK1 said he did when I was getting to understand his special coil design back a ways. It took me a while to even understand what he was doing with the rectifier. He and I am just measuring what voltage is available coming off those secondary wires.

It sometimes is rather different in the different directions. They seem the same on this one. So, this is one coil 120 turns measured as though it had polarity.

thanks for that explanation,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 07, 2009, 12:01:19 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 06, 2009, 11:39:13 PM
@jeanna

Remember i got 4 coils 2 pickup coil, i don't even look at the coil voltage both ways , there usually about the same once rectified,

On this picture you see output from pickup coil 1 in red for 67 volts, and 2 in blue for the second 67 volts , all the test are done with the same design of 4 coils

Oh I see. I never did those tests right, then. I didn't have 2 separate secondaries when I made the MK1. I only crossed over the other primary and continued on.

I went up 13 then down 13 and across, then up 13 again and down 13 again. this gave me only 2 ends with 52 turns.

I guess that is also where I got the idea to turn the wires around and check the other way.

All of my results were based on this. This goes for the thickness of wire tests too!

So, my "MK1" must be considered a variation of the one you made, not a replication.

oh well.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 07, 2009, 12:08:59 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 06, 2009, 11:39:13 PM
@jeanna

Remember i got 4 coils 2 pickup coil, i don't even look at the coil voltage both ways , there usually about the same once rectified,

On this picture you see output from pickup coil 1 in red for 67 volts, and 2 in blue for the second 67 volts , all the test are done with the same design of 4 coils , i did it on many different core, and the output is really adjusted by the resistor that goes to the transistor base, on this core 1k is a ok , but not for the other ones. Each different toroid of ferrite or powdered iron will work but at there own speed (adjusted by the resistor) and induction, some need more coil turn some less (on the jt side)for getting enough induction for a good pickup coil output.

This core dark green works at 1k when used with a 2n3904
The yellow with white edge needs 5 ohm with a 2n3904
The green with a blue edge needs a 55 ohm with a 2n3904
The green with a red edge is under testing
All those are the same size toroid

@all

By the way , to me iron rust is iron even if baked in ceramic over , ferrite is mostly iron and powder iron or not it will work when done right , in french "fer" means iron.

Mark

I got pc issue damn the trojan! I getting harder and harder to be with you friends.

Great picture of your coil. I understand it much better now.

Ferrite is NOT mostly iron, it has no iron at all. It is not powdered iron either. It is Fe2O3, iron oxide. Yes, it is basically rust that has been highly compressed and fired at a very high temperature. This is actually how iron occurs in nature as an oxide. The same with aluminum, you don't find aluminum in nature, you find Al2O3, aluminum oxide which is the white powder you see when your aluminum lawn furniture "rusts." Aluminum and aluminum oxide are 2 totally different items as are iron and iron oxide.

From wikipedia: "Ferrites are usually non-conductive ferrimagnetic ceramic compounds derived from iron oxides such as hematite (Fe2O3) or magnetite (Fe3O4) as well as oxides of other metals. Ferrites are, like most other ceramics, hard and brittle."

Now, you say you don't see any difference in the JT circuit application between powdered iron and ferrite, and that is good. I didn't know about that. I was concerned there would be a difference and you proved there is not. Now, if we were making wave guides, I know there is a big difference. Just thought I would pass this on as I spent over 20 years in the precision ceramic machining and ceramic design engineering Industries.

I don't see how you get your toroids wrapped so tight and neat. I pull my wire very hard while wrapping and it still seems to go where it wants to go. The bead I wound a few days ago, I even tried a tie-wrap and it helped, but mine don't look like yours. nice work.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 07, 2009, 12:44:06 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 06, 2009, 11:39:13 PM

This core dark green works at 1k when used with a 2n3904
The yellow with white edge needs 5 ohm with a 2n3904
The green with a blue edge needs a 55 ohm with a 2n3904
The green with a red edge is under testing
All those are the same size toroid

I am sorry to hear about the trojan,

Thank you, btw, for doing this comparison study. It really helps.

I have a question for you.

Is there a way to put these 2 separate winds together? When I tried to do that it lost a lot of power. I assumed I had taken it into an area not suited for use as a secondary. But, since you are making these as separate winds, I assume you can use them in an additive way?

Or, do you use each one on a separate circuit?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 07, 2009, 12:49:38 AM

@pirate

Its pretty easy with mag wire 26 turn on each side 13 up 13 down you just put them in the space left between the wires there all ready , at first the a bit slack but going back down fixes that. You got to make those jt coils first then 13 on each side then come back down then all will be tight. Some toroid really need more inductance from the wire then the jt coil need to be adjusted , after that connect you pickup coil to rectifier in my case 2 rectifier , and adjust the base resistor to get the best output , then you will be in the freq range for the core , other transistor will be adjusted , if you try different transistor the resistor value needs to also be adjusted.

@gadgetmall

For the last mag amp , it just basically said that the coil on a toroid has 2 states of function 1 with the core unsaturated and one when core fully saturated , it goes from high to low inductance and impedance drops to zero (impedance , resistance of circuit drops to zero)

@jeanna

To get the neon i need the in series to get enough voltage, i am working on a positive feed back system to put the positive part from one coil in the other coil and keeping the negative out that way the still in series , when you connect them in series if you don't connect them the right way and the coil have the same number of turn you will get nothing out of the coils.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 07, 2009, 01:03:22 AM

@ MK1:

Thank you! I have been using 22 ga. stranded insulated wire so far. I have 3 spools of magnet wire I got at radio shack a few weeks ago so I will try using that. I appreciate the explanation on how to wind them like yours. Thanks.

Also, as far as your trojan goes, are you using firefox as a browser? I switched about a year ago when someone on here recommended it when there were some problems on this site. I really love it! Then I added adblocker and it blocks all the ads and the pages load really fast. You might try spybot search and destroy (free) to rid your computer of the trojan. Good luck, those are nasty sometimes.

You can download spybot here: http://www.download.com/Spybot-Search-amp-Destroy/3000-8022_4-10122137.html

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 07, 2009, 01:14:24 AM

@pirate

I am a firefox user , and run spybot s&d 2 times a days . lol

Its like some one plays a game!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 07, 2009, 01:27:16 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 07, 2009, 01:14:24 AM
I am a firefox user
Its like some one plays a game!

Glad to hear that. firefox is really good.

I have stopped going to a beautiful site since it uses a very fancy grade of flash, I think. Everytime I visit that site then return here, it takes minutes to load the page and sometimes the whole browser crashes or I need to force quit. I have stopped going there.

Perhaps there is something like this going on?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 07, 2009, 01:29:01 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 07, 2009, 01:14:24 AM
@pirate

I am a firefox user , and run spybot s&d 2 times a days . lol

Its like some one plays a game!

i know this game all tooo well

i have lost 6 computers like this a word to the wize .... get you important info off that machine NOW! soon it will crash and poof gone for ever ..... no joke i have walked this path ....

looks like your coils are pre wound ;) lol

put your info on a dvd or jump drive away from your computer ... you will thank me .... another word to wize .... do not transport the machine if you do it may self destruct in 5 sec..... meaning your hard drive is screwed when you plugg it back in ..... HOW DO I KNOW?!?!?!?!

it happined to me ... seucurty if you like ;) imagine your computer was stolen from your house with intent to steal your work .... ;) poof gone as soon as plugged back in ....

does this happin in real life ..... ??? do you light cfl's from an aa battery in real life .....

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 07, 2009, 01:53:53 AM

@ist

The coil on the picture i got it like that , it seems to be a choke of some kind it really is the best core i got, i have made 7 of them so far that look just as good, i got one with 4 turns on one side and 43 on the other one They both weight the same , with a avalanche diode (actually it is a 22 volts zener), One high and one low inductance it work good but i don't think its worth the effort for a single 23 volt out.Since the saturation takes care of that !

I keep my important stuff , between my ears !

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 07, 2009, 03:49:12 AM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on February 06, 2009, 05:43:49 PM
I wound a toroid with the same bifilar wires for 5 turns, then continued with only one of those wires til it was turned a total of 12 times. Then I added 120 turns for a secondary.

Why don;t you go back to this circuit and change the base resistor from 1K to 10K and measure the battery current. You should still have enough voltage from the secondary to light some LEDs. Use a cap across the base resistor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 07, 2009, 03:50:38 AM

@ All:

Here is a supercap I found. 2.7 volt 650 farad!! It is $78.00. Check it out.

http://www.tecategroup.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=18_20_39&products_id=162

I believe this would run any and all of our jt circuits for a very long time and be almost instantly "recharged". it would be great for home lighting applications I think.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 07, 2009, 10:53:20 AM

mk1 you need to get some garden lights from ramma ... ;D

2$ each ... somthing neat happins when the single aaa battery that drives the led GOES DEAD... ;)

lol

hummmmm

are they already selling us jt's lol ;) it may be the photo cell im not sure yet just noticed it it blinks tho .....

ist

in any event they make AWSOME POWER SUPPLIES FOR THE JT......

AND JUST THE MOST PERFECT RING HOLDER

yep im on it i will mod a unit with jt atached ... and 10x the leds ..... 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on February 07, 2009, 11:38:24 AM

@IST
i got 10 of those garden lights, from ramma. :)

it is the battery, relaxing, chimical reation, that make them blink.
the solar cell might be helping a bit too.
the chip in those light seem to have a voltage threshole a bit higher then the led.

about the solar cells, they output around 2+ volts at around 3+ miliamp in full sun light.

else then a solar cell.
you get a AAA ni-mh 1.2 volts 300 miliamp battery
a battery holder
a very low volt/amp led (i already burnt one)
a 10 ohms resistor
a 1n5819 diode
and a chip relay (might be spdt, dpdt or spst)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 07, 2009, 12:22:01 PM

so we should be able to replace the led with ... a jt no problem and it will operate off the battery system as is ... and we now have a solar battery charger designed to work with our nicad battery so.... now put your cam unit there... power a cfl ... or put a jt there power leds charge batteries YOU DECIDE ... ;D

if you need more ideas im FULL OF EM AND I GIVE THEM AWAY FOR FREE ;D i ask for nothing in return ....

but if im wrong in what i say please kindly correct me ...

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on February 07, 2009, 12:36:06 PM

due to the efficientcy of solar cell, i don't think it can close the loop.
but it is a sure way to recycle some of the energy used to light the neon or leds.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 07, 2009, 01:02:20 PM

Quote from: xee2 on February 07, 2009, 03:49:12 AM
@ jeanna

Why don;t you go back to this circuit and change the base resistor from 1K to 10K and measure the battery current. You should still have enough voltage from the secondary to light some LEDs. Use a cap across the base resistor.

Yes,
This is what I did all the tests on yesterday but in a more cursory way. I changed the base resistor. to 10kVR and checked everywhere in the middle. All I ended up doing, as far as I can tell is dimming the lights by using the higher resistance. It always had a cap. I can do it inch by inch looking for a sweet spot.

I realize now, I only gave an overview. Maybe I will put all the details up. If I do it will be after I unwind a few and see how it looks according to jesus' suggestion of 2+5 with 120 turns on the secondary. That way all those similar details will be together.

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 07, 2009, 01:35:28 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on February 07, 2009, 12:36:06 PM
due to the efficientcy of solar cell, i don't think it can close the loop.
but it is a sure way to recycle some of the energy used to light the neon or leds.

i dont look to close the loop ...

i want bright lights from a solar powered device .... it needs the battery so why take it away ..

quick and simple ....

and an impressive demo unit ;)

ist!
could drop a few solar cells round the cfl if you want ... or if you use leds KEEP EM CLOSE TO THE PANNEL... ;)

it would help to feed some back for the dull days.... to keep the battery topped up .. or close to topped up

would be really cool if it looked like a flower in the end where the solar pannles gather from the sun and at night from the cfl ...

just plant em in the flower bed ... along the walk way bill and jenna if you could design a nice stem for the flower it could turn into a tree ;D

with branches of light

earth battery stem that you plant ... then you have 2 charge sources.... for your tiny battery ....

gadget we need your cam unit built on a board ... tuned to a 40 watt cfl ... to full brightness .... for the lest input possible ....

and there you go

FREE LIGHT FOR EVERYONE ....

JUST PLANT IT .... ALLMOST ANYWHERE ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 07, 2009, 01:54:18 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on February 07, 2009, 01:35:28 PM

just plant em in the flower bed ... along the walk way bill and jenna if you could design a nice stem for the flower it could turn into a tree ;D

with branches of light

earth battery stem that you plant ... then you have 2 charge sources.... for your tiny battery ....

JUST PLANT IT .... ALLMOST ANYWHERE ...

I'm on it IST!, I have been planning the following:

In the spring I think I can get a small galvanized pail. I have seen them with citronella candles in them. I will fill the pail with earth then fill the center part with spent carbon granules from the brita filter, and stick a carbon rod into that. this will give at least .7V. Well, these days .7volts sounds like a lot. So, I will take a little jt with 20 turns secondary and 2 lights and hook it between the pail and carbon rod and have a brilliant outdoor light.

Now, what am I gonna do with all that citronella candle material? ;)

jeanna

EDIT: I just found a bunch of places to get these buckets. 2" beensy ones for less than $1 and 4" ones for under $3. so in the spring...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 07, 2009, 02:05:22 PM

Quote from: jeanna on February 06, 2009, 10:36:28 PM
@jesus,
Thank you for your suggestion. Is there anyone else that is seeing that 2 makes a
difference?
I see you are getting the best with a two turn difference from pri to sec

@xee2, so the cap across the battery which appears to offer nothing, is protecting the circuit and allowing a spike to be there faster than a battery would?

I HAVE NOT FOUND A CAP THAT PRODUCES LOWER CURRENT DRAW ON THE JT . I DON'T USE ONE .

@all,
About the circuit with the uneven turns. I see nothing non-linear here as much as I try. I can run down all the numbers for you if someone wants. I am happy to do that. Here is the recap.

The basic circuit with its
1k base resistor, the
2N3904 transistor,
a VR in place below the base with its cap || to it. but the VR is set to zero...and
5+5 bifilar with 120 turns secondary
the secondary to the leds :

The rectified voltage of the secondary is 34.6V both ways
The amp draw is 16.8mA

As I added turns to the primary collector coil the rectified volts AND the amps both went up.

Any time I turned the variable resistor with its parallel cap to anything above zero all the way to 10.8K the amperage went down, but the rectified voltage did too.

SWEET SPOT DON'T FORGET THE RESONATE SWEET SPOT !!
--

So, it is all fine to light leds with low amperage and the high voltage which is oscillating, but I am not yet prepared to think I am getting near to replicating this fuji transformer.

The fuji circuit has a clear metallic capacitor in a place that is not on the base of the transistor, I think. This is not the big-mama cap, but something that seems to point towards the second coil which could be a relay. I don't want to add more than one thing to my jt coil at a time and this base cap has not been beefing up my circuit.

@gadgetmall, I am trying to remember if the joule thief basic is where you have added this 68pF cap? I think it is. Do you have any suggestions here?

i AM RIGHT ALONG WITH YOU 50 T x 50 t WITH A SECONDARY OF 30 TURNS . WITH TWO TANK CIRCUITS AND A RESISTOR ON THE BASE . .81 MA TOTAL DRAW WITH 4 WHITE LEDS . i WOULD KEEP THE TANK CIRCUIT TAKE YOUR BEST IDEA AND INCREASE THE TURNS TO YOUR BEST READINGS . IT MIGHT BE THAT YOU ARE USING LOWER TURNS SO YOU MIGHT NEED A SMALLER vr.CAP TANK MAYBE 1 K OR 5 K . .. . IF I USE A 101 CAP 102 103 CAPS IT DON'T DO THERE IS A DIFFERENCE IN PICO FARAD AND MICRO FARAD

PS I think kubikop is just showing the peltier effect can go both ways. Really, he boiled water for one side, and he used ice cubes for the other and lit a led for 10 minutes. This is interesting but does not show efficiency. IMHO Now, if a peltier doodad can be run by the high frequency voltage coming off a joule thief, that would be very exciting. In my next order from allelectronics I will get the one they have for $14. It is too high priced for a usual order from them, (especially after those leds) but it is a question I want answered.

Hey Gadgetmall, wanna try it?

already HAVE FIVE MODULES .. i HAVE PLAYED WITH THEM FOR 15 YEARS . THEY ARE FASCINATING TO PRODUCE COLD FROM ELECTRICITY . i LOVE EM . i ALREADY TRIED THE INDUCTION THING . IT DID NOT WORK FOR ME BUT I AM GAME FOR ANYTHING YOU COME UP WITH !!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 07, 2009, 02:31:54 PM

@ MK1:

Also, as far as your trojan goes, are you using firefox as a browser? I switched about a year ago when someone on here recommended it when there were some problems on this site. I really love it! Then I added adblocker and it blocks all the ads and the pages load really fast. You might try spybot search and destroy (free) to rid your computer of the trojan. Good luck, those are nasty sometimes.
I might add that i use all of the above here is one more tip and i have never got a trojen since . its call malwarebytes antiMaleware and its 100% free and effective in remove all those nasty bugs .. get it from www.malwarebytes.org
You can download spybot here: http://www.download.com/Spybot-Search-amp-Destroy/3000-8022_4-10122137.html

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 07, 2009, 02:32:08 PM

@all

I have no circuit to share today, but I have the free energy experimenters dream photo. I know that everybody will like it.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 07, 2009, 02:33:04 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on February 07, 2009, 01:02:20 PM
All I ended up doing, as far as I can tell is dimming the lights by using the higher resistance. It always had a cap. I can do it inch by inch looking for a sweet spot.

I still do not think you get the point of doing this. So they get dimmer. So what. The point is - can you get the LEDs to be as bright with the same battery current using a standard JT? I do not think that anyone can light a neon bulb from a 1.5 volt battery using only 16 mA with a standard JT. But using the cap and extra collector turns I was able to do that. You said early that you wanted your LEDs to run longer from the battery. This is how you can do that. When the circuit is using less current from the battery then the battery will last longer. The cap and extra turns let your LEDs look as bright as a standard JT but with less battery current so the battery will last longer..

I need to do some other things so I will not be checking back very often in the future. I hope you are able to figure this out.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 07, 2009, 02:36:13 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 07, 2009, 01:14:24 AM
@pirate

I am a firefox user , and run spybot s&d 2 times a days . lol

Its like some one plays a game!

Try Malwarebytes anti-malware I use all what you got before and still do with one addition this one it works !! and free www.malwarebytes.org

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 07, 2009, 02:47:54 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on February 07, 2009, 02:32:08 PM
@all

I have no circuit to share today, but I have the free energy experimenters dream photo. I know that everybody will like it.

Jesus

Beautiful Jesus !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 07, 2009, 02:51:29 PM

Quote from: xee2 on February 07, 2009, 02:33:04 PM
@ jeanna

I need to do some other things so I will not be checking back very often in the future. I hope you are able to figure this out.

Thanks for all your help xee2.

I guess what I really want ultimately is to discover a way to make the lights turn on in everyone's home and empower them to do it themselves and for free. (greedy bugger, I must be!)

I do appreciate all your help, and excellent explanations, and patience with me.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 07, 2009, 02:58:21 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on February 07, 2009, 02:05:22 PM
already HAVE FIVE MODULES .. i HAVE PLAYED WITH THEM FOR 15 YEARS . THEY ARE FASCINATING TO PRODUCE COLD FROM ELECTRICITY . i LOVE EM . i ALREADY TRIED THE INDUCTION THING . IT DID NOT WORK FOR ME BUT I AM GAME FOR ANYTHING YOU COME UP WITH !!!!

Darn,
You tried to get a joule thief to turn on the peltier device?
Are they all made specifically for 12 volts?
jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 07, 2009, 03:09:21 PM

@all

I feel sad lately. That is because the magnetic mill inventor died. He was very controversial, to the point that the thread was closed or locked. He was a very good friend though.

If anyone is interested on knowing more about the magnetic mill this is the link:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5660.0

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 07, 2009, 03:10:26 PM

@ jenna

im almost done it ;D

i will post a pic of the unit when i get it throwen togather ..

simple little mods ... nothing hard at all ...

would be just awsome if our jt could do this then we could display our hard work .. it would just fit nice .... right in the top of the unit ...

i like the cfl's cuz there real BRIGHT ... espically out doors ... at night .. wont hurt your eyes if you stair at them like some leds do ...

with some luck ill be done it in an hour or 2 ...

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 07, 2009, 03:11:48 PM

@ jenna

The cap and extra turns let your LEDs look as bright as a standard JT but with less battery current so the battery will last longer..
But they will not provide unlimited free energy. You will need something else to do that.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 07, 2009, 03:17:46 PM

@ All
well what i have done here the last days is experiment with My UNIT PULE GENERATOR that cost me a dollar (for the tube) . This is a great piece of equipment . I can find the resonate frequency from a toroid wound jt . By applying either a negative pulse or a positive pulses or both( AC) i can feed a toroid as little as .30 volts and fire a jt and then adjust the pulses to determine the volts out . quite interesting . Its easy to light a neon up now if you find the resonate frequency of the circuit . Now all i have to do if figure out how to reproduce that frequency with our jt circuit (crystal controlled) or 555 without adding to current draw .. NOTE : now that i have a circuit that light 4 leds for as little as .81 ma's that leaves 13 mas to play with as all the jt circuits on the net pull minimum 14 ma . We are doing what no one else is doing here folks . keep it up . ..pretty soon we will have a circuit i saw the other day . commercial lights 10 CFLS . for rural Areas .. NICE !

This inverter was designed to run up to 10 compact fluorescent lights from a 12V battery bank at a remote location. This was because commercial inverters cause excessive RF interference which prevents shortwave radio listening. Standby pow-er was another issue.
This inverter has a low standby current drain of 40mA, very good regulation and no RF interference since the CFLs are supplied with filtered DC.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 07, 2009, 03:25:38 PM

Quote from: jeanna on February 07, 2009, 02:58:21 PM
Darn,
You tried to get a joule thief to turn on the peltier device?
Are they all made specifically for 12 volts?
jeanna

i have 1 tiny one it will get cold on 1 aa battery but it sucks it dry in a few minuets

I will try it when i get some time . Today . its 67 degrees out side and i am in . I am going outside and soak up some sun !!!l8r Maybe play with some solar panels ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 07, 2009, 04:17:41 PM

Quote from: xee2 on February 07, 2009, 03:11:48 PM
@ jenna

The cap and extra turns let your LEDs look as bright as a standard JT but with less battery current so the battery will last longer..

xee2,

I guess I must have made things really unclear. I just re-read the last few posts. Your reiteration reminds me to say this.

I have not seen the lights be as bright when I use the cap and high value resistor. I want it to be that way, but I am not having the same results that you and gadgetmall have with the cap. I will keep trying.

GM says it is the sweet spot. Maybe so.

I was able to get lots of lights -30- on the same amount of amps as 1. The cap is a good next step for me in my learning, so I will persist.

You referred to the collector coil. I assume you are referring to the bifilar turns, but I would like confirmation, please.

QuoteBut they will not provide unlimited free energy. You will need something else to do that.

corse not. I need my magic wand to do that!

Thanks again,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 07, 2009, 05:11:30 PM

@ jeanna

Yes I mean turns on collector coil (see my diagrams).

In order to see the difference in current you should increase the base resistor value until only 2 or 3 LEDs in series light. Then measure the battery current and see if you can get the same number of LEDs to light as bright with that battery current using a standard JT. With only a few turns for a secondary you are producing a lot of current at a low voltage. With a lot of turns for a secondary you are producing a high voltage at a low current. With the high voltage you can add LEDs in series and all will be the same brightness but they may not each be as bright as one LED with a small number of turns for secondary with low voltage and a large current. But with a low voltage you can not add many LEDs in series.

Good luck. I am sure you will figure it out. You are a good experimenter.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 07, 2009, 05:33:44 PM

WOW,
I started to make some new tests on the 5+12 with 120 turns secondary. It still has a 47uF cap in the battery rails. (I think it was xee2 who said to put a large cap across the battery to keep the battery going longer and the jt stronger. ) It was still there. I was just reviewing what still needed to be looked at, when my eyes fell on a jt circuit that I made a while back that has 20 turns secondary and 2 lights soldered in place.

For unknown reasons ( ;) ) I stuck the red pos lead of this extra joule thief ckt onto the red battery lead on the breadboard which was still measuring the amps and saying .254v (meaning 26mA). I held the black lead to the negative lead of the cap and this extra joule thief lit up very brightly. squint time. And a glance over to the volt meter to see the amps showed it was the same.

I don't know if this cap will ever run down, but I have clipped it in place. And now I will hand draw this ckt for my records.

I guess I need to load up photoshop.

Wow,

So, it would seem to be the same as connecting both + and - of the second jt circuit to the + and - pins of the cap.

But if I do that, I get the lights flicker dance thing. Instead this is solid on the + battery lead and then the - of the cap. There is no flicker dance. Just 2 sets of bright lights.

And no extra amp draw.

Any questions?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 07, 2009, 05:37:27 PM

Quote from: xee2 on February 07, 2009, 05:11:30 PM
@ jeanna

Yes I mean turns on collector coil (see my diagrams).

Well, I mean in person, so to speak. The diagram says 40 turns on your diagram. Is that the collector coil?

thanks

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 07, 2009, 06:20:06 PM

Quote from: jeanna on February 07, 2009, 05:33:44 PM
WOW,
I started to make some new tests on the 5+12 with 120 turns secondary. It still has a 47uF cap in the battery rails. (I think it was xee2 who said to put a large cap across the battery to keep the battery going longer and the jt stronger. ) It was still there. I was just reviewing what still needed to be looked at, when my eyes fell on a jt circuit that I made a while back that has 20 turns secondary and 2 lights soldered in place.

For unknown reasons ( ;) ) I stuck the red pos lead of this extra joule thief ckt onto the red battery lead on the breadboard which was still measuring the amps and saying .254v (meaning 26mA). I held the black lead to the negative lead of the cap and this extra joule thief lit up very brightly. squint time. And a glance over to the volt meter to see the amps showed it was the same.

I don't know if this cap will ever run down, but I have clipped it in place. And now I will hand draw this ckt for my records.

I guess I need to load up photoshop.

Wow,

So, it would seem to be the same as connecting both + and - of the second jt circuit to the + and - pins of the cap.

But if I do that, I get the lights flicker dance thing. Instead this is solid on the + battery lead and then the - of the cap. There is no flicker dance. Just 2 sets of bright lights.

And no extra amp draw.

Quote
Any questions?

jeanna

Lady @jeanna
My questions is:
Can you post your hand draw circuit for us?

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 07, 2009, 06:53:45 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on February 07, 2009, 06:20:06 PM

Lady @jeanna
My questions is:
Can you post your hand draw circuit for us?

Jesus

i was about to ask the same thing ... ;D

my solar light stick has taken shape and i will post tonight

cheep and easy to build... can get everything at dollar ramma but the camera ....

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 07, 2009, 07:05:39 PM

@jesus,

I will have to install photoshop to use my tablet also. I will do it, but in a bit. It is already 4PM and I need to do some things before I can get to it.

I will try once more with words.

Take the drawing you called jeanna's idea. make a second copy of that. Cut off the battery and the 10 r resistor.

On the first drawing add a 47uF cap across the battery.

Move the second drawing into place so the cut battery lines connect to the pos and neg sides of the 47uF cap.

Now, move the line that goes to the pos side of the cap to the battery side of the 10r resistor.

here is the jeanna's idea I am talking about. I will delete this when you have it for clarity sake.

Thanks ,
jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 07, 2009, 07:17:55 PM

Quote from: jeanna on February 07, 2009, 02:58:21 PM
Darn,
You tried to get a joule thief to turn on the peltier device?
Are they all made specifically for 12 volts?
jeanna

Yep a pelitier will light up several Jts in parallel .also tried a fugi it works too . I took ice and put it in a bowl ,sat a heat sink in the ice with a module on it . Then took my hand and warmed the exposed side . It lit about .5 volts .. I stuck a metal cup with hot water on it and it ran up to 3+ volts . it was enuff to light 3 jts and a fugi

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 07, 2009, 07:50:51 PM

@ All:

Another long day on a case and I just got back. I could not wait to post this, then I will go back and catch up...again.

I found the perfect supercap!!!!! I have to wait to save up for it but it is the best deal in the supercap market I have found. here is a link: http://www.tecategroup.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=18

Get this: 2.7 volts 3,000 Farad....yes that's 3,000!!!! $130.00 US. This is only like $40 more than the 650 F caps I was looking at. Digi-key had a price on a 3,000 F cap that was about $3,000.00!!!! I am going to buy this thing as soon as I can. Sorry for all of my excitement but, I can't believe this. I can charge it with the earth battery at night and or solar during the day, and take it with my in my surveillance van and it will run my phone, mp3 player, recharge my digital camera....anything I want...for a long time. I'll bet this will light a 48" tube or a CFL for a very long time. See what you think. This is a serious commercial unit like the use in trains and heavy equipt.

Keep up the great work everyone!

@ Jesus:

I am sorry about your friend. I am sure he will be missed.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 07, 2009, 07:59:50 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on February 07, 2009, 06:53:45 PM
i was about to ask the same thing ... ;D

my solar light stick has taken shape and i will post tonight

cheep and easy to build... can get everything at dollar ramma but the camera ....

ist!

Great. lets see. I guess you are using a camera circuit, from an earth battery... I want to see this.

@Gadgetmall,
Can you use the joule thief to do anything to a small peltier to make it hot / cold?

After lights, I am hoping we can heat our homes and cool our drinks with the joule thief. I do think it is possible.
(- and I am persistent. ;D )

I wouldn't object to heating my home with a 3 volt battery and a joule thief. I am not stuck on the 1.2 volt... 8)

@Pirate, Good find Bill. 3kF now that sounds like tesla!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 07, 2009, 08:14:05 PM

im sorry i do not have an earth battery i could and will build 1 but not right now ... i have just throwen a unit togather to light up things that is all it is cheep to build

and it fits togather real well the earth battery mod to this unit would take seconds ....

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 07, 2009, 08:16:32 PM

@ jeanna

Current is more even (smaller pulses) on battery side of Cbatt so it is easier to get good current measurement. This is what I think your circuit is. If so just copy and mark up in photoshop if you want to.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 07, 2009, 09:18:42 PM

Hmm,
I don't know if this pic will help, or even if this pic will load.

lessee

OK
The alligator clips are holding the additional joule thief to the main one which is on the breadboard.
You can barely see anything, but since you know what the circuits look like, I will just point out that there are 2 complete circuits and they share one battery and one 10 ohm resistor and one 47uF cap.

Maybe this helps?
jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 08, 2009, 12:02:10 AM

I am re-reading this thread a little at a time, and I see on page 17 Dec 12 first groundloop made 2 drawings that are very close to what this is and then in the next post #166, wilby added a picture of 2 thiefs running off a common battery.

So, what I am doing here, is using the cap by the battery to keep it steady and at low amps and long duration.

I am not sure about the amps, yet. It may be the number of turns more than the battery cap.

I am thinking about the turns ratio from primary to secondary. It is true, as xee2 predicts, that the lights in parallel on the breadboard are dim and cannot be brought up as they could in the circuits I have made using a toroid with few secondary turns.

I guess tomorrow, I better make that variation to this breadboard one. I will let these 2 run all night. The soldered circuit here is very bright. It has a VR on it too but the range is only between 500 and 1K, so it won't dim very much.

I am making gloves for a friend, so my hands are pretty busy for now.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 08, 2009, 02:54:20 AM

Well, when I got back from work, I attempted (twice) to make another video but my experiment did not work out like it was supposed to. I hate when that happens. I will try again.

@ IST:

That is a great idea for the garden lights that resemble flowers with the pedals being solar cells. Very good thinking all around I would say. Cheap to make, very functional and a little twist that most folks would love. This is the kind of creativity I enjoy and respect, and I have seen a lot of it right here in our topic. You should make those. It may not make you rich, but it might pay for a lot of wire and supplies. Excellent idea!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 08, 2009, 03:23:15 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 08, 2009, 02:54:20 AM
Well, when I got back from work, I attempted (twice) to make another video but my experiment did not work out like it was supposed to. I hate when that happens. I will try again.

@ IST:

That is a great idea for the garden lights that resemble flowers with the pedals being solar cells. Very good thinking all around I would say. Cheap to make, very functional and a little twist that most folks would love. This is the kind of creativity I enjoy and respect, and I have seen a lot of it right here in our topic. You should make those. It may not make you rich, but it might pay for a lot of wire and supplies. Excellent idea!

Bill

I agree with Ist idea . I see Little tiny flowers and little tree garden lights . you plant them in the ground with copper zinc trunk at the tips of them there are leds and as a boost solar fruit :) with of course the major part our little modded JT :) Great . Lest hurry up make a prototype and start selling .. We can make Millions . just look at those water globes . he already sold MILLIONS OF THEM > this will be a great addition to anyones home /landscape // no ugly solar lights only pretty little bushes and flowers that run from the earth ....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 08, 2009, 04:26:12 AM

@ Gadgetmall:

Agreed. And to those who say...."well, you guys are only in it for the money," I say, hey we need a little money to carry on our research here. Not a lot, but some. I have supercaps, large ferrite toroids, big blocks of magnesium, solar cells, etc. on my wish list at the moment. These are not free. So, IST, go for it, that is an excellent idea that I know will work.

@ Jeanna:

I caught your idea about the little galvanized buckets.....and then carbon rods and JT circuit? This one is also an EXCELLENT idea as well. Cheap (inexpensive rather) self powering led lights..........you probably could not make enough of them to keep up with demand. I admire your thinking and creativity.

I know others here also have some ideas that are great as well. I really enjoy being with you folks and I can not wait to see what we do next. God bless all of you.

Bil

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 08, 2009, 08:30:33 AM

my wish list is too big ... i need bout 3 guys just to write it down lol

i did not finish the light stick last night as my cam curcuit is not the best it could be i have not modded my fugi boards yet

i will take some pictures today

it would be real nice to have a shop ....

i dont care bout money it is all fake ..... if i have it i share it :)

it would be nice to have a place to live too ...

ist

till this all happins i work with what i have or can get for the few cents i have ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 08, 2009, 09:02:07 AM

Quote from: jeanna on February 07, 2009, 07:05:39 PM
@jesus,

I will have to install photoshop to use my tablet also. I will do it, but in a bit. It is already 4PM and I need to do some things before I can get to it.

I will try once more with words.

Take the drawing you called jeanna's idea. make a second copy of that. Cut off the battery and the 10 r resistor.

On the first drawing add a 47uF cap across the battery.

Move the second drawing into place so the cut battery lines connect to the pos and neg sides of the 47uF cap.

Now, move the line that goes to the pos side of the cap to the battery side of the 10r resistor.

here is the jeanna's idea I am talking about. I will delete this when you have it for clarity sake.

Thanks ,
jeanna

You dont need photoshop. What you need is irfanview and paint. Paint comes with windows and irfanview is free on the internet. Just search for irfanview and the free versio will show up.

Also you can draw it on a piece of paper and take a close up photo of it with your camera.

Also the schematic from @xee2 can be taken into irfanview and converted to .bmp by saving it as .bmp. Then opened on paint and changed. Reopen on irfanview and save as .jpg with the changes done. It is very easy and you will use it the rest of your life.

Also on paint you can use a pencil tool and make rough drawings with the mouse.

Remember it is not giving you a fish, but teaching you how to fish.

By the way I will try to do the changes you explained. The point here is that using one of those given ideas the results are faster for all of us.

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 07, 2009, 07:50:51 PM
@ All:

Another long day on a case and I just got back. I could not wait to post this, then I will go back and catch up...again.

I found the perfect supercap!!!!! I have to wait to save up for it but it is the best deal in the supercap market I have found. here is a link: http://www.tecategroup.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=18

Get this: 2.7 volts 3,000 Farad....yes that's 3,000!!!! $130.00 US. This is only like $40 more than the 650 F caps I was looking at. Digi-key had a price on a 3,000 F cap that was about $3,000.00!!!! I am going to buy this thing as soon as I can. Sorry for all of my excitement but, I can't believe this. I can charge it with the earth battery at night and or solar during the day, and take it with my in my surveillance van and it will run my phone, mp3 player, recharge my digital camera....anything I want...for a long time. I'll bet this will light a 48" tube or a CFL for a very long time. See what you think. This is a serious commercial unit like the use in trains and heavy equipt.

Keep up the great work everyone!

Be careful because sometimes it says that is a certain amount of Farads and it results tobe les than a quarter of the Farads specified.

Quote

@ Jesus:

I am sorry about your friend. I am sure he will be missed.

Bill

Thanks!

Edit:
@jeanna

Maybe you mean this? (Look at the @xee2 changed schematic.)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on February 08, 2009, 09:25:58 AM

Hi guys :)

I made a second modified camera circuit, used the same B-brand camera,
but the circuit appears to be slightly different... It still looks nearly identical
to my previous one, and it seems to work the same too as I can light an equal number
of LEDs with it and it also powers the small fluorescent tube at the same brightness,
but I can hear the difference. :)

Really, when I switch it on (now have a working switch attached) it makes an extremely
high pitched sound which is of about the same tone as a tv tube makes, or like a
friend of mine put it "like a dog whistle".
Not many people can hear the sound, I have found that only people with sensitive ears
hear it and most people above 25 don't hear it. Especially people that play in a band
or people over 40 seem to be unable to hear it. I guess it's a high pitch in the same
region as that "Mosquito" device they use to scare off teenagers (what was it, 17kHz?).
The cat also really does not like this sound; he runs off whenever I switch the circuit on.
And in fact, it gives me a bit of a headache too, after a while.

Has anyone else heard this high pitched tone when toying around with a camera circuit?

The odd thing is that my previous circuit does not make the same high pitched sound.
Well, not all the time, that is... When I hook it up to the fluorescent tube and disconnect one
wire, and hold the loose wire in the same hand as the tube, the tube does light weakly
and I can hear a faint high pitched sound. But this is a lot less intense and of a higher
pitch than the sound this 'new' circuit makes.

Also, I have hooked the two circuits to the same battery and tube in parallel and this seems
to decrease the efficiency as the tube lights up less brightly when I do that. This in contrast
to Bill's videos where the tube lights up more brightly when he hooks 2 circuits in parallel.
When I hook them to the tube in parallel with each of the circuits on their own battery, the same
thing happens.
It seems the circuits are not in sync or something. Each one seperately lights the bulb to about
equal brightness but as soon as another is hooked up the tube dims.

As for the classic JT, I got some ferrite rings in the mail but they misread the order or something,
gave me way too slim toroids which are too small to wind a proper number of coil windings on,
so I have re-ordered a bunch of proper sized rings again... ...sigh... ;)

regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on February 08, 2009, 10:32:22 AM

@Koen1

This camera circuit is trying to fill that capacitor with as much voltage as it can in the least amount of time from a low voltage scource. What it does is it increases the frequency and impressed voltage of the charging of the cap in response to the back pressure of the cap. So as the capacitor voltage rises instead of waiting around outputing a set voltage it increases the frequency and voltage. Everyone must have seen forensic detective shows on TV with all that crazy variable oscillator noise going off after every camera flash. The camera flash unit itself is quite a deal. The voltage ionizes the gas into a plasma which grows across the gas field from electrode to electrode. When the streamer plasma spans the gap it appears as a dead short to the capacitor. The current through the seed plasma is so intense that it radiates enough emwave energy to ionize more gas molecules. The electrons upon returning to naturally ordered electron shells release photons absorbed during ionization. Bright light.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 08, 2009, 10:52:00 AM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on February 08, 2009, 09:02:07 AM
You dont need photoshop. What you need is irfanview and paint. Paint comes with windows and irfanview is free on the internet. Just search for irfanview and the free versio will show up.

Also you can draw it on a piece of paper and take a close up photo of it with your camera.

Also the schematic from @xee2 can be taken into irfanview and converted to .bmp by saving it as .bmp. Then opened on paint and changed. Reopen on irfanview and save as .jpg with the changes done. It is very easy and you will use it the rest of your life.

Also on paint you can use a pencil tool and make rough drawings with the mouse.

Remember it is not giving you a fish, but teaching you how to fish.

By the way I will try to do the changes you explained. The point here is that using one of those given ideas the results are faster for all of us.

Be careful because sometimes it says that is a certain amount of Farads and it results tobe les than a quarter of the Farads specified.

Thanks!

Edit:
@jeanna

Maybe you mean this? (Look at the @xee2 changed schematic.)

jesus .... your a good guy!!

:)

i just know ;)

ist!

btw im not selling anything ..... it must be safe 100 percent i think the jt is ok and the cam units as they are already in use main stream ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on February 08, 2009, 12:41:15 PM

Just to let you know, the solar light flowers are available in China for about $5.00 U.S. each. Nice try though.
They also have solar CFL lights for your garden or deck.

I didn't see anything about the earth battery feed, so you might have something there.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 08, 2009, 01:01:04 PM

Hi everyone,
I awoke this morning thinking I had made a big mistake and I needed to just come quickly and say so, but first I checked a few things. I did make a mistake in the way I was thinking the circuit is, but it is still way better than the sum of the separate circuits added together.

I was not checking the amps properly so the meter was not recording the amps from the added circuit. So, adding the circuit does add some amp draw.

It goes from 30 mA on the breadboard circuit to 45mA when the 2 are put together and properly tested for amps.

The second one by itself which adds 15mA to the total, uses 104mA by itself.

@jesus. I understand. I know how to use photoshop, so for me it is quicker than learning a new program. I just need to install it, which is easy enough. I think today will be a good day for that.

(I have a macintosh and mac and windows are antagonistic operating systems, so I cannot just get the program you suggest. Thank you. I am switching everything even the mac to linux which is free and supported worldwide by open source folks who help each other like here. I am doing that a little at a time, though.)

@Ist/Gadgetmall, I love this little solar flower thing. There is a stubblefield reminder in this if you recall the stories that he "lit up the ground" ... trees , mmm yes. Trees lit up is much prettier than street lights any night of the year!

@Bill, thanks, I went looking for a galvanized gift size pail yesterday afternoon. None here. But I do have a big one I can use to try it out. I think it would be good looking - and good safety- to have one little one on each step going up to the front door. Just water it occasionally!

@Koen,
Try them anyway. Kubikop on youtube (sorry no link) shows a really tiny toroid in his basic how to make a joule thief video. I wouldn't be able to do it either, (it is way too small) but we are playing with different numbers of turns. The important thing is to get the magnetic field of/around that toroid to oscillate. There are several different ways people here are accomplishing this. I just "got" how xee2 has been doing this today, so, give the little ones a try.
BTW, I think kubikop used varnished wire. You can use the same color wire. You must not connect one wire to itself, so just do something to distinguish them visually so you twist different pieces of identical wires together once they are wound.

@xee2,
I am still working on the circuit you drew. I have found that when I think you are misunderstanding my question to you, it is I that misunderstands your answer. I just need time.

And, perhaps photoshop.

I will be back. with a drawing. It really isn't as special as I thought. Just the battery cap seems to make a difference. - thanks xee2 for insisting on the battery cap!

Thank you everybody,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 08, 2009, 01:11:02 PM

@ All:

Have a look at this: http://www.metacafe.com/watch/2391318/nextreme_candle_power_demo/

I think this is very closely related to the Peltier Junction or a thermal couple of some kind. Not really related to what we are doing, but it could be with the addition of a jt circuit to use that same generated energy to light a bunch of leds. The folks making this probably don't even know about the jt circuit.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 08, 2009, 02:13:29 PM

OK here it is... I hope ;)

EDIT ADD: One at a time they draw 135mA total but when added together like this they draw only 45mA.
I want to perfect this a bit to find resonance, maybe...
jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 08, 2009, 02:21:49 PM

Thanks Bill,

He has good suggestions in the end. I thought "pretty ridiculous" in the beginning. Was he really proposing to use a candle flame to light a led? No, it sure looked like it for a while though. ;D

Yes, use the heat from the hot wall in your house in the summer to cool the inside of it. reverse in winter.

I hope the jt can do some of this like warm your coffee if not cook it.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 08, 2009, 02:46:09 PM

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/915226/free_electricity_from_thin_air/

I had seen this video before but it was a while ago. Now, with all we know about the jt circuits so far,the 2 volts this guy pulls out of the air should run our toroids....non-stop!!!! I realize this energy comes from radio transmissions...but....so what? Just about everyone has these transmissions around them so why not tap into them for some free light? If we all did this it would not cost the radio station any more than what they are already paying and we all get free light. It looks simple enough to build, even I can probably make one. (ha ha)

Jeanna:

You could light all of your walkway and garden lights for free, forever using this method. I will give this a go and report when I get the time. He has a schematic and parts list at the end of the video. Less than 2 bucks in parts....now that is right up my alley!!!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 08, 2009, 02:59:36 PM

@all

Try it but honestly , that shit don't work , i made 4 of those but fell free to try.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 08, 2009, 03:06:38 PM

MK1:

Really? Crap! I thought we might be on to something. I don't mind trying it anyway but it calls for germanium diodes....these are hard to find these days are they not? I know Radio Shack will probably not have any.

If this works off of radio signals in the air as this fellow suggests, then it seems to me it would be good to have a way of "tuning" to receive whatever frequency is strong in a given area. I guess the antenna length would be one variable. I wonder if the tuner out of an old am or fm radio would help?

I really hope this is not another one of those fraud videos we see from time to time. You know more about this stuff than I do....is there any reason it should work according to the schematic? Or is it all just a bunch of hooey? Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 08, 2009, 03:33:05 PM

geraimum diode ... hummm

i have bout 5 000 diodes .. i bought up a bunch of radio shack surpluss a while ago

call me stupid ... but are thease the clear ones? diodes that i can see through if so i have a few hundred of them ...

;D

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 08, 2009, 03:38:10 PM

@pirate radio shack has them 1n34a germanium diode, yes they are clear,form what i can see is they work better in the sun, they are photo sensitive. there is inventor3 on you tube that still say it works but really i don't see how i replicated his experiment , got close to nothing.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 08, 2009, 03:54:40 PM

So Gadgetmall,

Quote
i AM RIGHT ALONG WITH YOU 50 T x 50 t WITH A SECONDARY OF 30 TURNS . WITH TWO TANK CIRCUITS AND A RESISTOR ON THE BASE . .81 MA TOTAL DRAW WITH 4 WHITE LEDS . i WOULD KEEP THE TANK CIRCUIT TAKE YOUR BEST IDEA AND INCREASE THE TURNS TO YOUR BEST READINGS .

OK, so

You have the 2 tank circuits inline running between the base of the transistor and the coil, do you need both variables?

I am about to see how many turns I can fit on my newer largest toroid. Maybe it is big enough for 100, though I doubt it. Anyway I am mostly wondering about the double tank.

Any advice?

OH YEAH,
@anybody,
this newest biggest toroid says high permeability on it. Is that what we want? or don't want?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 08, 2009, 04:00:40 PM

Well I checked and radio shack does not carry them....so, I ordered on;line from a semiconductor company. Problem is, they had a $50 minimum!!!

So, I ordered a few other things as well:

50 1n34 germanium diodes
50 2n3055 transistors (for my Bedini motor)
10 1n4001 diodes (Bedini)
10 1n4007 diodes (Bedini)
40 2N3904 transistors (joule thief) These were like 20 cents each and RS sells them for $2 ea.
20 2N2222 transistors to try on the jt circuits.

I really can't afford this but at least now I can complete my Bedini motor and try some of the stuff lidmotor is doing. I guess I have to work a lot more now which gives me less time to experiment.

We had 2 other electronic stores here in town but all are gone except for radio shack, and they don't carry half the stuff in this store that is online. I did a search on their site for the germanium and it had no listing. This is better anyway, I'd rather pay 20 cents each for a boatload of parts than what I have been paying at RS.

I guess I will give this a try when the parts come in.

Bill PS I have no idea what the germanium diodes look like as they had no photo.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on February 08, 2009, 04:13:53 PM

Please keep in mind here that the JT is a very efficient capacitor charge circuit.
Do the wattage calculations like after you flash the camera as to how many watts do you have stored in the capacitor. Then think about what Tesla states in all candor in the below.

Yes; I charged the condenser with 40,000 volts. When it was charged full, I discharged it suddenly, through a short circuit which gave me a very rapid rate of oscillation. Let us suppose that I had stored in the condenser 10 watts. Then, for such a wave there is a flux of energy of (4 x 104)2, and this is multiplied by the frequency of 100,000. You see, it may go into thousands or millions of horsepower.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 08, 2009, 04:34:51 PM

Quote from: sparks on February 08, 2009, 04:13:53 PM
Please keep in mind here that the JT is a very efficient capacitor charge circuit.
Do the wattage calculations like after you flash the camera as to how many watts do you have stored in the capacitor. Then think about what Tesla states in all candor in the below.

Yes; I charged the condenser with 40,000 volts. When it was charged full, I discharged it suddenly, through a short circuit which gave me a very rapid rate of oscillation. Let us suppose that I had stored in the condenser 10 watts. Then, for such a wave there is a flux of energy of (4 x 104)2, and this is multiplied by the frequency of 100,000. You see, it may go into thousands or millions of horsepower.

SPARKS!!!

not there yet ....

let it be!!!!

perhaps WE NEED TO HAVE A CHAT!! :o

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Paul-R on February 08, 2009, 05:01:49 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 08, 2009, 04:00:40 PM
Well I checked and radio shack does not carry them....so, I ordered on;line from a semiconductor company. Problem is, they had a $50 minimum!!!

Collect a couple of dumped TVs, monitors, microwave ovens.
With a soldering iron and a solder sucker, you would be
amazed how much useful stuff you can get (secondhand,
yes, but probably in good order) for nothing while you are
watching the telly in these long winter evenings.
Paul.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 08, 2009, 05:21:06 PM

Quote from: sparks on February 08, 2009, 04:13:53 PM
Please keep in mind here that the JT is a very efficient capacitor charge circuit.
Do the wattage calculations like after you flash the camera as to how many watts do you have stored in the capacitor. Then think about what Tesla states in all candor in the below.

Yes; I charged the condenser with 40,000 volts. When it was charged full, I discharged it suddenly, through a short circuit which gave me a very rapid rate of oscillation. Let us suppose that I had stored in the condenser 10 watts. Then, for such a wave there is a flux of energy of (4 x 104)2, and this is multiplied by the frequency of 100,000. You see, it may go into thousands or millions of horsepower.

This type of condenser ? From https://www.addison-electronique.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=8

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 08, 2009, 05:48:57 PM

so i used my old cap motor board with the 275 vac cap on it and i powered a cfl with out mods to it the cap i used on this board is 1 uf at 275 vac

it needs to be smaller value like .1uf :o

i will make this ...

so it will power the cfl with out modding it and and light it to full brightness....

where will this go ..... ;)

william

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 08, 2009, 06:03:22 PM

@ist&pirate

That is weird i got some 1n34 from radio shack even at half price, that was last November.

And the circuit form air i think is a solar deal, more than anything else,take a led(super bright red or white) connect it to your meter then let the led touch a incandescent light bulb, you should get 1.5v. 6 mirco.

I also found this interesting little trigger coil http://www.abra-electronics.com/products/catalog/H-V-Trigger-Transformers-p-4765.html

BTW , abra and addison are my local stores , then there is active. I am so lucky, and addison is so cheap!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 08, 2009, 06:30:36 PM

@pirate

I circuit from air is not a ridiculous idea , but the one on the net is not working, but lest go retro.
Crystal radio , don't need batteries.But we would need to tune it but to what?lol

We need germanium diodes , core and mag wire to start! so lets go!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 08, 2009, 07:03:47 PM

i have about 300 of those diodes just the single wire one ...

i made you guys a video of my un modded cfl being powered by a cam unit and a 275vac cap

NOTE** this is polarity sencitive ...if it dont work 1 way flip the wires ;)

ist!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkjN0GTlCRY

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 08, 2009, 07:17:05 PM

Hi everyone,

I finished winding 100 turns 50 each way on my big 1 1/4" diameter high permeability toroid. I just got them to fit! I took my own advice, and used 2 pieces of green mag wire I think 26 gauge awg from RS. I was careful to sand off the ends of one before I began and at the end I twisted one of each from opposite ends together for the common wire.
This circuit is similar to the recent ones. For clarity, I am using:
Transistor 2N3904,
820r fixed resistor at base
20K VR at base || to a
100pF Cap
Across the battery is a 47uF cap to smooth it all out
yellow or white led single for this test.

The basic jt is a pretty good one, The light is very bright.
With only the fixed resistor at the base for comparison and standardization,
the light is very bright at 20 mA (this is a normal thing for 20 mA to make a bright light)

and moving the VR to 19K ohm the amps drops to
4mA and the light is still very bright. (this goes for yellow and white. remember the yellow shows a weakness in light much earlier than the white does.)
=====
I began to turn a secondary using the same (left-over) green 26 awgauge mag wire ~5 or 6 turns and the light is bright coming from the secondary. It draws
3.5mA
0.935Vrectified.

I will now pull out another 57 inches and wind a secondary potentially as long as either primary-half. and see if the amps can stay low and raise those volts.

thank you,

jeanna.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on February 08, 2009, 07:33:05 PM

To charge that cap of 10uf or fill her up you will have stored in the cap say 200volts and .000010amps which is an input of volt amps of .002va. not much wattage invested there. Now dead short it into say .1ohm resistor. Amperage equals voltage divided by resitance. Your amperage will now be 200volts divided by .1 ohms. Or 2000amps. The wattage distributed or dropped will be amperage squared times the resistance, 4 times 10to the 7thwatts. In that nanosecond of discharge you put out the same wattage as a 40megawatt powerplant. The problem in this sceanario is the resistance of the circuit and the impedance of the circuit. Mother nature does not like 40megawatts moving around in a confined field. Your shorting device is going to be one of the problems. Say it is a screwdriver. As your contact approaches the capacitor terminal the insulating properties of air are going to be overcome and the voltage will start to discharge through the air.Now the cap will discharge at a rate where the resistance is in the thousands of ohms. So now your I=ER is down to 200volts divided by 10,000 ohms which is .002amps. The wattage disappated is now down to 20milliwatts. Huge difference. Still a gain but significantly less.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 08, 2009, 07:36:16 PM

Quote from: innovation_station
jesus .... your a good guy!!

:)

i just know ;)

ist!

btw im not selling anything ..... it must be safe 100 percent i think the jt is ok and the cam units as they are already in use main stream ...

Thank you @innovation. I wish you good luck on selling your inventions. You also are a good guy!!

Quote from: jeanna
...
@jesus. I understand. I know how to use photoshop, so for me it is quicker than learning a new program. I just need to install it, which is easy enough. I think today will be a good day for that.

(I have a macintosh and mac and windows are antagonistic operating systems, so I cannot just get the program you suggest. Thank you. I am switching everything even the mac to linux which is free and supported worldwide by open source folks who help each other like here. I am doing that a little at a time, though.)
...

Lady jeanna we all love you here. You are the only woman I know that do what you do. Keep being as you are.

Quote from: Pirate88179
@ All:

Have a look at this: http://www.metacafe.com/watch/2391318/nextreme_candle_power_demo/

I think this is very closely related to the Peltier Junction or a thermal couple of some kind. Not really related to what we are doing, but it could be with the addition of a jt circuit to use that same generated energy to light a bunch of leds. The folks making this probably don't even know about the jt circuit.

Bill

Great! Isaw the video and what it states is correct. The heat wasted can be reused.

Quote from: jeanna
OK here it is... I hope ;)

EDIT ADD: One at a time they draw 135mA total but when added together like this they draw only 45mA.
I want to perfect this a bit to find resonance, maybe...
jeanna

Thank you @jeanna. It is true that you know how to use photoshop!

Quote from: innovation_station
i have about 300 of those diodes just the single wire one ...

i made you guys a video of my un modded cfl being powered by a cam unit and a 275vac cap

NOTE** this is polarity sencitive ...if it dont work 1 way flip the wires ;)

ist!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkjN0GTlCRY

Great! If the light turns on without modification that is great!

@all
About the energy from thin air. I did the congiguration last year. The germanium diodes that the stores sell are not 1n34 germanium diodes. What they will send you is 1n60 and charge for the germanium diode.
The last voltage the device captured was 90 volts on the 100 volts caps. But if i wanted to use it anyway it only did a big spark and that was it. I did not know how to use the output.
I posted my work on the electrinium thread If I find the link I will post it as an edit to this post.

Jesus

Edit:

At this time my configuration to get energy from the air had an output of 59volts. But the last output I got from it were 90 volts.
I did not know how to use the spark produced from it and I disassembled it and used the parts for other projects.
This is the link for the photo of my energy from the air configuration. I posted it on the wrong place as a newbie.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5479.msg131632#msg131632
Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 08, 2009, 07:42:47 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 08, 2009, 02:59:36 PM
@all

Try it but honestly , that shit don't work , i made 4 of those but fell free to try.

Remember i told you i got a load of germanium diode sto extract electricity out of the air . well put 20 in series and parallel 20 more . It will extract electricity if it is very close to an rf source . Like My uhf or vhf walkie antenna , I think if you string up some wire 60 to 100 feet and make a yagi it will pull some volts . I get 15 volts from getting them close to a transmitter . Also a cell phone .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 08, 2009, 07:46:52 PM

Quote from: Paul-R on February 08, 2009, 05:01:49 PM
Collect a couple of dumped TVs, monitors, microwave ovens.
With a soldering iron and a solder sucker, you would be
amazed how much useful stuff you can get (secondhand,
yes, but probably in good order) for nothing while you are
watching the telly in these long winter evenings.
Paul.

thats what i do !! recycle .. except for those special things..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 08, 2009, 07:51:40 PM

well looks like future tests to be done ...

many things to do ...

if you watch my last vid ... you will read the comments ....

for an improvment ... ;) ;D

ist

thank you stephan :)

@ sparks ..... come on bro .... make the time .... i want nothing from you .... but i would like to talk to you

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 08, 2009, 07:55:25 PM

@gadgetmall

You could try a variable cap to tune so it will give more output if you tune it!
Could we pickups the Rf from the jt maybe delay a cycle ?and feed positive feedback to jt coil.

@ist

Nice video , we need to change the cap to? again?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 08, 2009, 07:58:33 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on February 08, 2009, 05:48:57 PM
so i used my old cap motor board with the 275 vac cap on it and i powered a cfl with out mods to it the cap i used on this board is 1 uf at 275 vac

it needs to be smaller value like .1uf :o

i will make this ...

so it will power the cfl with out modding it and and light it to full brightness....

where will this go ..... ;)

william

This wont go no where because you are back to pulling more current that the bulb uses on the grid :) you got to watch the input current . that is what is important on a jt . not light a cfl like i do with a fugi like toroid for 12 ma . That is the mark you got to beat !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 08, 2009, 08:00:41 PM

Quote from: sparks on February 08, 2009, 07:33:05 PM
To charge that cap of 10uf or fill her up you will have stored in the cap say 200volts and .000010amps which is an input of volt amps of .002va. not much wattage invested there. Now dead short it into say .1ohm resistor. Amperage equals voltage divided by resitance. Your amperage will now be 200volts divided by .1 ohms. Or 2000amps. The wattage distributed or dropped will be amperage squared times the resistance, 4 times 10to the 7thwatts. In that nanosecond of discharge you put out the same wattage as a 40megawatt powerplant. The problem in this sceanario is the resistance of the circuit and the impedance of the circuit. Mother nature does not like 40megawatts moving around in a confined field. Your shorting device is going to be one of the problems. Say it is a screwdriver. As your contact approaches the capacitor terminal the insulating properties of air are going to be overcome and the voltage will start to discharge through the air.Now the cap will discharge at a rate where the resistance is in the thousands of ohms. So now your I=ER is down to 200volts divided by 10,000 ohms which is .002amps. The wattage disappated is now down to 20milliwatts. Huge difference. Still a gain but significantly less.

Could some type of oil permit isolation to capacitor?

@gadgetmall

I would not say beat since we all have a shared goal, to tell the truth i did not have time to do much
the last few days, well not as much has i would have liked, but i cant tell you that much when you get the right freq for the coil and core you don't need much to get the output, and you proved it !
But i fear the amp output , i am still undecided on that one , but i fear that you get the same output amp and voltage per turn on the pickup coil then the input .There is a minimum i like to stay above for maximum output on secondary , and there are many steps to be done and all doing the same thing may not always has time efficient. I am working on getting those to feed each other , one may not run it self , but one feeding the other and your minimal one that may be that first step.

I issuing a challenge , worked to every body advantage ,so be it i got beat, but i would do one more lets get the 19158 members working together , and all forums energetic and others , we still have the net lets use it before its to late!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 08, 2009, 08:02:26 PM

Quote from: jeanna on February 08, 2009, 02:13:29 PM
OK here it is... I hope ;)

EDIT ADD: One at a time they draw 135mA total but when added together like this they draw only 45mA.
I want to perfect this a bit to find resonance, maybe...
jeanna

way too high you know dont you . remember the best Jt on the internet is 14 ma . ours or the one i modded is 0.81 less than 1 ma running 4 white leds . looks like you had it at 11 turns ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 08, 2009, 08:06:35 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on February 08, 2009, 07:03:47 PM
i have about 300 of those diodes just the single wire one ...

i made you guys a video of my un modded cfl being powered by a cam unit and a 275vac cap

NOTE** this is polarity sencitive ...if it dont work 1 way flip the wires ;)

ist!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkjN0GTlCRY

yea but can you run it 10 - 12 hours on an aa battery ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 08, 2009, 08:10:32 PM

@jesus and everybody wanting to use "sky-volts" and caps.

I am NOT an expert about caps, however there is a tweak that I do understand. Sparks (probably xee2) can supply us with the proper numbers, I suspect.

To review the pertinent parts,
When a cap fills, it fills very quickly to about 66% of its upper limit. (then continues slowly)
Also, when a cap discharges it drops its payload very quickly to about 33% of its lower limit. (then continues slowly)
So, the trick is to fill it up (which is easy and quick) then keep it cycling between 33% and 66% of its limits.

That poor high school teacher that had me in his drop in electronics class!!! I pushed and pushed. I had read Trinkaus' book and I knew Tesla had sparked his way to lots of power, and I wanted to light a led with a cap.

He finally helped me to set it up. I had a resistor in line with the cap to slow down the discharge. This worked like this. I charged it with a battery for a second then the cap would light the led for 25 seconds.

In an astable oscillator - the kind you make (not the 555 timer type) you control the filling and discharging of the lights with the resistor in parallel with the cap. You are aiming to keep the levels in the 33-66% range at all times.

So, for those wanting to catch volts from the sky, I think you want to fiddle with a resistor in parallel to the cap.

The cap fills because it is easier since there is no resistance, then at the critical point, it becomes easier to discharge than to keep charging and the energy comes out and flows down the circuit.

Bill has done something like this with his earth battery lighting the led using a supercap.(I think he skipped the resistor and used the L E Diode for the single direction fill then discharge)
Edit add: A diode will give resistance of the minimum voltage so that is enough to influence the energy to go into the cap.

So, all you need is the right cap and the right resistor.

You probably all knew this, didn't you?

I am personally afraid of this potential. It is probably OK, but the sky voltage changes so much from hour to hour, I won't do it.

Please be careful.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 08, 2009, 08:17:09 PM

Quote from: jeanna on February 08, 2009, 08:10:32 PM
@jesus and everybody wanting to use "sky-volts" and caps.

I am NOT an expert about caps, however there is a tweak that I do understand. Sparks (probably xee2) can supply us with the proper numbers, I suspect.

To review the pertinent parts,
When a cap fills, it fills very quickly to about 66% of its upper limit. (then continues slowly)
Also, when a cap discharges it drops its payload very quickly to about 33% of its lower limit. (then continues slowly)
So, the trick is to fill it up (which is easy and quick) then keep it cycling between 33% and 66% of its limits.

That poor high school teacher that had me in his drop in electronics class!!! I pushed and pushed. I had read Trinkaus' book and I knew Tesla had sparked his way to lots of power, and I wanted to light a led with a cap.

He finally helped me to set it up. I had a resistor in line with the cap to slow down the discharge. This worked like this. I charged it with a battery for a second then the cap would light the led for 25 seconds.

In an astable oscillator - the kind you make (not the 555 timer type) you control the filling and discharging of the lights with the resistor in parallel with the cap. You are aiming to keep the levels in the 33-66% range at all times.

So, for those wanting to catch volts from the sky, I think you want to fiddle with a resistor in parallel to the cap.

The cap fills because it is easier since there is no resistance, then at the critical point, it becomes easier to discharge than to keep charging and the energy comes out and flows down the circuit.

Bill has done something like this with his earth battery lighting the led using a supercap.(I think he skipped the resistor and used the L E Diode for the single direction fill then discharge)

So, all you need is the right cap and the right resistor.

You probably all knew this, didn't you?

I am personally afraid of this potential. It is probably OK, but the sky voltage changes so much from hour to hour, I won't do it.

Please be careful.

jeanna

Thank you @jeanna.
You know, I am a visual person and to understand a new principle I need to look at some schematic. If you have any or any link that has them please post.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 08, 2009, 08:22:22 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 08, 2009, 07:55:25 PM
@gadgetmall

You could try a variable cap to tune so it will give more output if you tune it!
Could we pickups the Rf from the jt maybe delay a cycle ?and feed positive feedback to jt coil.

@ist

Nice video , we need to change the cap to? again?

you know i will tear the rest of those very old am radios and get that varicap out of it . i got some cool ferrite rods out of em . I have been wanting to try that varicap with a jt for a while . . Thats a good idea . for a while before all the stations go digital including radio . which is the Fcc plan for our future . I wonder why ? Neuk fallout wont pass vhf uhf signals ?NOPE!. as far as i am concerned with digital tv it sucks big time . It puts every one back on rabbit ears or an outside antenna. at least in this part of the country . some places it dosnt work at all even with an outside antenna .but the old system works fine . something smells of one world government here.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 08, 2009, 08:22:27 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on February 08, 2009, 08:02:26 PM
way too high you know dont you . remember the best Jt on the internet is 14 ma . ours or the one i modded is 0.81 less than 1 ma running 4 white leds . looks like you had it at 11 turns ..

I had 5 +12 turns then the secondary was 120 turns. It is an attempt to be in proportion to the fuji circuit.
It didn't work.

Yes, I agree it is way too high. I am now following your lead with the 50T, 50t wound toroid. see my results so far. they are very good.

I was trying to see what direction to go to raise the volts and keep the amps per light down. I was surprised (xee2 was not surprised) that I could no longer run many lights in parallel when I had added so many secondary turns. In fact those lights are pretty dim.

I still am trying to raise the volts and keep the amps down, but I saw your comment - thank you, and I am first replicating then I will think where to go after that. Maybe series them to raise the volts? Anyway, I am catching up!!

thanks

jeanna
EDIT:
btw, I just grabbed that soldered circuit yesterday to try something out. It is one where the led is in place but doesn't light. I have seen that in those like that that the volts use of .7 per led is there even though the light is off. That is the reason to remove it once the circuit has proved to work. - j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 08, 2009, 08:44:44 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on February 08, 2009, 07:58:33 PM
This wont go no where because you are back to pulling more current that the bulb uses on the grid :) you got to watch the input current . that is what is important on a jt . not light a cfl like i do with a fugi like toroid for 12 ma . That is the mark you got to beat !

lol

gadget i have a bunch of stuff to teach you my friend ;)

this will go across the universe ;)

i dont so much care on the input with what i will do ok ... ;)

if it uses miliamps ... that is all i care what will be done with it is what detrunins your return ...

sparks if verry correct

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 08, 2009, 08:44:44 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on February 08, 2009, 08:17:09 PM
Thank you @jeanna.
You know, I am a visual person and to understand a new principle I need to look at some schematic. If you have any or any link that has them please post.

Jesus

mmm
Here is a link to the astable multivibrator.
http://www.play-hookey.com/digital/experiments/rtl_astable.html (http://www.play-hookey.com/digital/experiments/rtl_astable.html)
It is a tutorial so you make it step by step on the diagram. There are others, but I like to get in there and do it, so this is like that but with no parts to drop!
It is a good site like that. good name too!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 08, 2009, 08:45:40 PM

Been doing reports all day and I come here and I am even more behind!!!

IST:

Nice video, I gave you 5 stars. I bet that will light the bulb only without the cfl circuitry, maybe give it a try.

@ MK1:

Yes, I have read about the trench radios used in WWI. Some of them were tuned by sliding the graphite contact from a pencil down the length of the razor blade that was somehow used in the circuit. I am willing to try any of this...once all my parts arrive.

@ Jesus:

Nice circuit there. With what you know now I'll bet you can run a JT from it easily. I think it was you that posted about the stores switching out the diodes on folks? (I wish we could go back a little more while posting so we can answer everyone) Well, I ordered 50 of the 1N34 germanium and they had better be the 1N34's or I am going to call the folks I ordered from and send them back. Thanks for the warning.

Jeanna:

You are getting there with your low power draw circuit! I like Gadgetmall's take on power....same light, less mA's. Hey, I just read something about silicon transistors in my electronics book....I'll get it and post it here: "If the resistance values are properly selected, there will be approx. .6 volts between the base and emitter on any silicon transistor."

So, I guess this means we can measure the resistance, and adjust the resistance to be this value by adding or subtracting resistor values? That's why I like the pots GM is using because you can tune it exactly where you want it. Mine are too low of ohms to be any value. My radio Shack only had 25 ohm pots, not 25 k, just 25.

@ Paul:

Yes, I have been doing that for years but some of the components I need are specialized parts with specific numbers. I have found that many parts on vcr boards and TVs and computers look like the same part I might need but either have no numbers on them, or some strange number that I am unable to cross check on the internet. I always salvage stuff when I can, but thanks for the tip. Are your diode experiments done with germanium ? Or will any diode work?

I will go back and check the posts as I am sure I am missing some I wanted to reply to.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 08, 2009, 08:49:36 PM

Quote from Jeanna:

"Here is a link to the astable multivibrator."

Now there is a product that will sell! Ha ha.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 08, 2009, 08:52:35 PM

@Bill,
Welcome back ;D

Quote"If the resistance values are properly selected, there will be approx. .6 volts between the base and emitter on any silicon transistor."

That is the reason you expect to need .6volts just to start up a transistor, and also what you can expect the transistor to be using all the time even when it does nothing, it will just let the energy go through even when off. That is why my led candles with the 47r resistor last 3 weeks on a single charge, whereas the kind with the flicker (= transistor) last 3-5 days.

See, this is SUCH a great thread.

THANK YOU AGAIN AND AGAIN

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 08, 2009, 09:08:21 PM

it will not fire the neon with the cap in place .... it will with out the cap ...

but with the cap in place i light my 7w leds to full brightness they are 120 vac as well ... much brighter output with the cap........ it lights the the 7w led with out the cap but not as bright ....

it runs the curcuitry in the cfl from a cam unit with the cap .... this curcuit requires 120vac ....... this is the point........

lower the value to nf...... and raise the volts... as stephen says ...

ist!

however i WANT TO POWER THE CURCUIT ;D LOL I WILL KEEP MY VOLTAGE THE SAME IN THE CAP BUT IT WILL FIRE FASTER .... WITH lower value ....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 08, 2009, 09:19:09 PM

@ jeanna .,
you know from transistor to transistor they are different . you could buy 20 2n2222's and maybe one of them will run on .4 volts .some have better hfe I have seen silicon transistors run as low as .420 volts even thought the specs say 5 or 6 .. I also have a few (very few )germaniums that will oscillate at .2 volts .. we keep those in a safe place ..just a little bit of info . i know you said you had a can 2n2222 and a plastic 2n2222 . same transistor just one works better .If they are not Mil specs then what we get on the open market is just good enuff i guess and sometimes we get lucky ! .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 08, 2009, 09:24:10 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on February 08, 2009, 09:08:21 PM
it will with out the cap ...

ist!

Ist, When I was fooling around with the AAA fuji and I just couldn't get it to stay lit, I found that I needed to hit the bulb with the cap points then hold it with my hands. then it would stay lit.

Gadgetmall told us a little about his switch. Maybe we can get more details... eh GM?

I think you need 2 things going, one a steady stream for keeping it lit and the pop to get it started. I think you are right there.

Since these things are already made for 120 volts lets get them to work. You are sooo close!

I think it must be possible to light the cfl without gutting them.
Keep it coming.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: infringer on February 08, 2009, 09:24:59 PM

Just wanted to add this to your thread might be an idea

http://www.instructables.com/id/FREE-Hidden-Electricity!/

Enjoy and check with your legal regulations...

It appears to me that the joule theif is nothing more then stealing power from the air using resonance LRC I dunno if this is correct but it is my assumption based on guess work and lots of reading.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on February 08, 2009, 09:25:12 PM

@ Jeanna

Great posts :) I love the "Circuit Assembly" on the Astable Mutivibrator link you just posted above. I was thinking that it would be a great addition to this thread (and this forum) and help people understand the circuits being discussed.

Anyone proficient in Java script...

Regards to everyone.
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 08, 2009, 09:42:29 PM

jenna indeed verry nice link you know it will get use my way lol :D

but yes i have no trouble to light a cfl striped down form just an aa battery ... no cap on out

but we want to START A CASCADE EFFECT ;) hence aa powering cfl curcuit as it normally would from mains power ..... hummmmm

sure ... it can easly be done ..... but i want to take the out put of the cfl driver ...... as step # 2 up the ladder ..... so

will the out of the cfl charge a cap ....... :o

if so how much ... how fast .... bill you have some super caps think it will charge them ?

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on February 08, 2009, 09:46:49 PM

Quote from: Goat on February 08, 2009, 09:25:12 PM

Anyone proficient in Java script...

Regards to everyone.
Paul

i am. what were you thinking? same style of clickthru only a JT circuit instead of astable multivibrator?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 08, 2009, 09:50:20 PM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on February 08, 2009, 09:46:49 PM
i am. what were you thinking? same style of clickthru only a JT circuit instead of astable multivibrator?

;D ;D ;D

i cant wait for this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

just awsome idea!!!

will you do this will ....

i will make you a verry kool gift if you do ;) 8)

william

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on February 08, 2009, 10:00:43 PM

Only thing missing is 2 connections from the solar charged battery to the JT circuit inside the 24 LED light running on 1 battery :)

EDIT: The LED's could face either way depending on the application.
EDIT:2 The battery voltage while running the light was 1.26 while the voltage at the diode was 1.24VDC, enough to run a 24 LED JT cct.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 08, 2009, 10:06:29 PM

@ all
I just got back home afta a few days away, got some bad news, don't know if you all heard or not, but some firebug out this way in Victoria, 2 states below me) decided to set a fire going, in 47 degrees Centergrade, he managed to burn down over 700 houses, killed over 100 people. We had offers for help from England and New Zealand, all gratefully received.

I shed a tear over this lot, as our Prime Minister said this morning on the news, they are looking for a mass murderer, I hope the police get him before the good people do, there are a lot of really very angry people here right now, and a lot of sad ones as well.

I wont be posting again until I read up on the 15 pages of posts I gota catch up on.

Bill, I gota 2 more mouses, cheese n Peanutbutter traps = in tally

@ Al its here, will send it today.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 08, 2009, 10:20:05 PM

@Electricme

I quite sadden by the the story i have been fallowing it on the news , it seems that
every country find a different(i am not saying on purpose but its like bad news every days now) way to get people angry and desperate , i hope Canada joins the effort we got some expertise on that subject. I hope all of you down under will be safe.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on February 08, 2009, 10:27:08 PM

@Electricme, my deepest sympathies for your country's needless loss :'(

@WilbyInebriated...Glad to hear you know Java Script...how hard would it be to transfer the best schematics and working models to help people understand where the components go and then transfer them from the breadboard to a printed circuit board (PCB)?

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on February 08, 2009, 10:31:28 PM

Quote from: infringer on February 08, 2009, 09:24:59 PM
It appears to me that the joule theif is nothing more then stealing power from the air using resonance LRC I dunno if this is correct but it is my assumption based on guess work and lots of reading.

sorry, too much guessing and not enough "good" reading.
the joule thief does not stealing power from anything.

read about magnetic amplification, "mag amp", transistor amplification and amplifier feedback.
try to read from academic books.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 08, 2009, 10:37:24 PM

Quote from: Goat on February 08, 2009, 10:00:43 PM
Only thing missing is 2 connections from the solar charged battery to the JT circuit inside the 24 LED light running on 1 battery :)

EDIT: The LED's could face either way depending on the application.

VERY NICE MATCH UP .way cool . keep em commin !!

@all
this is another off topic but it could change the world we live in .hav a look . i borrowed it from somewhere and its very interesting .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on February 08, 2009, 10:42:54 PM

@ gadgetmall

I'm ready to send you all I got to make it a prototype, let me know and I'll send everything I got including all my Fuji boards :)

You're the man at making things happen for the better and I respect that. I on the other hand have had nothing but shit luck at building something useful to all ESPECIALLY the under privileged...that's where my motives are.

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 08, 2009, 10:47:07 PM

Quote from: Goat on February 08, 2009, 10:42:54 PM
@ gadgetmall

I'm ready to send you all I got to make it a prototype, let me know and I'll send everything I got including all my Fuji boards :)

You're the man at making things happen for the better and I respect that. I on the other hand have had nothing but shit luck at building something useful to all ESPECIALLY the under privileged...that's where my motives are.

Regards,
Paul

Well MOM did name me Albert :)

Has anyone ever played with Tritium Vials > forever light . they arnt available in the us but i managed to get some years back when they were deregulated . they are fascinating . they contain tritium gas in a vial coated with phosphorescent powder and the light up . all different colors (yea i got em all ) it is my understanding that the energy they product is equal to 10,000 volts like a tv screen . they are neat and you can read by them in the dark . .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on February 08, 2009, 10:52:09 PM

@ gadgetmall et al

I edited the post already a page back at http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg156351#msg156351

Can we use the voltage at the LED as the driving voltage for a 24 LED JT without affecting the Solar Panel circuit?

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on February 08, 2009, 10:57:24 PM

Quote from: Goat on February 08, 2009, 10:27:08 PM
@WilbyInebriated...Glad to hear you know Java Script...how hard would it be to transfer the best schematics and working models to help people understand where the components go and then transfer them from the breadboard to a printed circuit board (PCB)?

Regards,
Paul

i shouldn't think it would take very long or be terribly difficult to do a simple circuit like the 'classic' JT, other more complex circuits are another story. to be honest i just took a cursory glance at it. flash might be better suited for this purpose as, at least for me, it is easier to rapid develop with.
i will grab their .js scripts and take a closer look when i get a chance, at the moment i am occupied with polishing up some 3d stargate models for a game mod.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on February 08, 2009, 11:07:21 PM

Thanks WilbyInebriated....anything you can contribute on your spare time I'm sure would be appreciated by all to make things clearer :o

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 08, 2009, 11:11:17 PM

Quote from: Goat on February 08, 2009, 10:52:09 PM
@ gadgetmall et al

I edited the post already a page back at http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg156351#msg156351

Can we use the voltage at the LED as the driving voltage for a 24 LED JT without affecting the Solar Panel circuit?

Regards,
Paul

About a month ago?? maybe Jan 1 or so, I posted a pic of my jt lighting 30 leds off the secondary only.

This would have no effect on the circuitry for the solar panel, I believe.

I was using a basic toroid wound with 11 bifilar wires and 20 turns max on the secondary. 1Kohm resistor at the base of a 2N3904 transistor

I stopped at 30 because I ran out of leds. These were 10 in series and 3 deep. So, it was good either way.

In fact, I just came to report more disappointing results. I have yet to improve on that first circuit.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 08, 2009, 11:11:46 PM

Quote from: Goat on February 08, 2009, 10:52:09 PM
@ gadgetmall et al

I edited the post already a page back at http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg156351#msg156351

Can we use the voltage at the LED as the driving voltage for a 24 LED JT without affecting the Solar Panel circuit?

Regards,
Paul

All you need to do to have 24 led on your jt is take wire make 1 or 2 turns on the jt toroid and connect the right way its all you need , but only 24?

Thank again !

Mark

Edit sorry Jeanna we posted at the same time , lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 08, 2009, 11:12:28 PM

Quote from: Goat on February 08, 2009, 10:52:09 PM
@ gadgetmall et al

I edited the post already a page back at http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg156351#msg156351

Can we use the voltage at the LED as the driving voltage for a 24 LED JT without affecting the Solar Panel circuit?

Regards,
Paul

it depends on the ma's of the output circuit and if your Jt is modded with the Jeanna secondary and GM current mod . its possible . is your cell going to cut off the leds in the day ? is then yea it should . i have ran jeanna s circuit now almost 3 weeks and it still is lighting the whites and red .. the green and rainbows are not lighting anymore . on that ring are heavy current eaters . 1 watt each . they are bright . but i got it modded on My jt circuit with jeannas secondary lighting all of them for weeks on a Nicad . so its very possible if your circuit shuts down the jt during the day ..i day of charge should give you days of light with one jt .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 08, 2009, 11:17:07 PM

Quote from: jeanna on February 08, 2009, 11:11:17 PM
About a month ago?? maybe Jan 1 or so, I posted a pic of my jt lighting 30 leds off the secondary only.

This would have no effect on the circuitry for the solar panel, I believe.

I was using a basic toroid wound with 11 bifilar wires and 20 turns max. 1Kohm resistor at the base of a 2N3904 transistor

I stopped at 30 because I ran out of leds. These were 10 in series and 3 deep. So, it was good either way.

In fact, I just came to report more disappointing results. I have yet to improve on that first circuit.

jeanna

this is the one with one loop secondary . thats the one i have ran for three weeks off one half dead battery . good circuit folks .. !! .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 08, 2009, 11:19:13 PM

in the cfl curcuit what if we changed the cap on the input of the curcuit... to a lower value ... also ... it has 2 hv outputs ;D ....

how many strings of 100 leds might 1 light now ?? it may draw more from the source but we are not done with this little gem yet ...

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on February 08, 2009, 11:21:13 PM

Quote from: Goat on February 08, 2009, 10:52:09 PM
@ gadgetmall et al

I edited the post already a page back at http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg156351#msg156351

Can we use the voltage at the LED as the driving voltage for a 24 LED JT without affecting the Solar Panel circuit?

Regards,
Paul

if it has an equivalent circuit then my garden lamp, no.
not without modification or you risk damaging the switching circuit.

yes, if the diode in your garden lamp can withstand the reverse voltage the jt create.

Edit
i managed to pass 270 miliamp trough the switching circuit, untill the battery showed .9 volt, without frying it.

the ni-mh stated 300 miliamps but a can only get 270 max out of it, cheap stuff, but for 2$ i won't sue the maker. ^^

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on February 08, 2009, 11:32:28 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on February 08, 2009, 11:12:28 PM
it depends on the ma's of the output circuit and if your Jt is modded with the Jeanna secondary and GM current mod . its possible . is your cell going to cut off the leds in the day ? is then yea it should . i have ran jeanna s circuit now almost 3 weeks and it still is lighting the whites and red .. the green and rainbows are not lighting anymore . on that ring are heavy current eaters . 1 watt each . they are bright . but i got it modded on My jt circuit with jeannas secondary lighting all of them for weeks on a Nicad . so its very possible if your circuit shuts down the jt during the day ..i day of charge should give you days of light with one jt .

Yes gadgetmall the solar panel has a light sensor and will "cut off the leds in the day".

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 08, 2009, 11:34:15 PM

Quote from: Goat on February 08, 2009, 11:32:28 PM
Yes gadgetmall the solar panel has a light sensor and will "cut off the leds in the day".

Put some tape on it?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on February 08, 2009, 11:37:08 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 08, 2009, 11:34:15 PM
Put some tape on it?

the solar cell is the sensor. ;)

@Goat
see my previous post, i have edited it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 08, 2009, 11:43:54 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on February 08, 2009, 11:37:08 PM
the solar cell is the sensor. ;)

@Goat
see my previous post, i have edited it.

Have a look at the picture there is a little circle and a photo resistor ? (light sensor)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on February 08, 2009, 11:45:41 PM

@ Mk1

If I put my finger on the light sensor the LED goes out in the daytime when aimed at the sunlight, at night it will not do the same, there's not enough light to engage the solar panel and the battery takes over, the photo cell doesn't work until you increase the light towards it or block it depending on the need to switch the photo cell on or off.

I was thinking more like a CFL driven by gadgetmall's Fuji driving the solar panel...but LED's would be a start...there's enough light all around usually to drive the solar panel.

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 08, 2009, 11:50:46 PM

@goat

The solar cell don't charge at night it discharge that my be also part of the circuit? So in the dark the solar is disconnected. Sorry for my mistake.
Keep the good work!

Mark

Edit you need day time cycle , Photo resistor are like a variable resistor checking its value in light and dark and replacing it by a daytime value may do it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on February 08, 2009, 11:54:41 PM

@ TheNOP

Thanks for the input on your edit but I would like to point out that I'm only here part time with only certain input capabilites, figuring out electronic circuits using ZPE or other methods and explaining them using complex mathematics isn't my cup of tea....

The rest of the people on this that that are good in electronics need to see your response and see for themselves if the solar panel to battery circuit can be used properly with the JT circuit without blowing the existing charging circuit.

Getting more from the sun than we are getting now will be a bonus.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 09, 2009, 12:05:03 AM

@ IST:

On your question about the supercaps...yes, I believe they would charge.

@ Jeanna:

Very cool link you posted. That was so well laid out, I could make that circuit on the first try. (and that's saying something) I think it would be great if Wilby could make something like that for the JT circuit, then anyone could replicate this easily. I would do it if I knew how, but I don't.

@ Jim:

I have not heard anything on the news about the fires but I am very sad to hear about it now. Did this idiot do this on purpose? Or was this just some stupid accident? Glad to hear that Team Mouse has lost 2 more players. Maybe soon, they will give up. PS My cat is feeling much better and is eating once again. She is just about back to normal. (Whatever that is, ha ha)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 09, 2009, 12:08:11 AM

glad to hear bout the caps.... :)

here is my light stick ;D 8)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on February 09, 2009, 12:20:31 AM

@ innovation_station

Your Imagination of a flower with all the petals as solar panels makes sense, what if the 400 LED were on top instead of the bottom and could face the solar panels at night, would that be enough voltage to make a JT modified circuit to drive itself and then some?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 09, 2009, 12:23:24 AM

@Goat

Solar panels don't work efficiently under any types of light, But with some of those uv and or redlight we may have surprises.

I sent you pm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 09, 2009, 12:31:10 AM

the peddles are not on it yet i am a busy guy i work on things i can not show ...what i show on ou is a fraction of what i do and have done .. :)

but all aside ...

yes i used the cfl for many reasons ... 1 it is more light for the bang ... 2 it works much better with the solar cells i will mount to the stock as peddles ..

3

they are cheep

1 buck

i have less than 20$ cdn in this unit including the camera all brand new parts ......

in the peddles i will have BACK UP BATTERIES TO INSURE IT IS AT FULL BRIGHTNESS ALL THE TIME AND HAVE A RESERVE ...

HECK YOU COULD PUT AN OUT PUT FOR MP3'S CELL FONES AND SUCH TO RECHARGE IF YOU REALLY WANTED .... 8)

i have no limits... :)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on February 09, 2009, 12:33:12 AM

Thanks Mk1 but I respectfully disagree, if I bring the solar panel close to a light be it incandescent or CFL the LED shuts off.

Now I'm not saying the lights are charging the batteries compared to the sun but what I'm wondering is if a Fuji circuit was to drive a CFL towards the solar panel it may be enough to drive a modified JT circuit to help it along.

Hope that makes sense.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 09, 2009, 12:34:44 AM

@ Goat:

Yes, I agree with Mark and I have been working on that for a week or two. As he said, the solar cells, or at least mine, respond better to a given freq or feqs of light. I was very disappointed when I hit one of my new cells (.5 volt, 1 amp.) with one of my superultrabright leds. My plan was to enclose 100 of the leds in side a mirrored box along with these 3 cells and a jt circuit. My hope was to get the cells to output enough to fire the jt...and so on. I have not given up on it.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 09, 2009, 12:34:45 AM

Quote from: Goat on February 09, 2009, 12:20:31 AM
@ innovation_station

Your Imagination of a flower with all the petals as solar panels makes sense, what if the 400 LED were on top instead of the bottom and could face the solar panels at night, would that be enough voltage to make a JT modified circuit to drive itself and then some?

I don't know the answer to this, but I did try when the question first came up. I have a small solar charger with an analog meter that shows how much solar power there is coming onto the panel. On that day a sunny winter day at 47 degrees lat. the meter went up about 1/4 of the way and was still able to recharge 2 AAA up to their limit. In 3 hours.

Later on that day, I faced my 30 led array right up to the panel a couple of inches away. The meter on the panel didn't budge. I left the lights on this panel for many hours, and the 2 AAA inside were still totally dead.

I don't have too much hope for this. too bad.

jeanna

oops sorry, multiple post. I see what you are saying. Do try it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 09, 2009, 12:44:16 AM

Quote from: Goat on February 09, 2009, 12:33:12 AM
Thanks Mk1 but I respectfully disagree, if I bring the solar panel close to a light be it incandescent or CFL the LED shuts off.

Now I'm not saying the lights are charging the batteries compared to the sun but what I'm wondering is if a Fuji circuit was to drive a CFL towards the solar panel it may be enough to drive a modified JT circuit to help it along.

Hope that makes sense.

I got that part, Why would someone design a night light to work in the sun? They would not !

All i am saying day time charges the battery in the circuit and the battery works at night and the solar is disconnected since there is no light?

All i am saying is that if you reverse the photo cell or just get it stock on daytime use , it will work.

To do that just change the photo sensor with a resistor that has the same value as the sensor in full sunlight.

I hope its clearer now.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on February 09, 2009, 12:47:23 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 08, 2009, 11:43:54 PM
Have a look at the picture there is a little circle and a photo resistor ? (light sensor)

look like you are right.

i took that circle for a screw emplacement as i don't have a photo cell in my units.
i just wonder why put a photo cell when the solar cell could be use.

Quote from: Goat on February 08, 2009, 11:54:41 PM
@ TheNOP

Thanks for the input on your edit but I would like to point out that I'm only here part time with only certain input capabilites, figuring out electronic circuits using ZPE or other methods and explaining them using complex mathematics isn't my cup of tea....

The rest of the people on this that that are good in electronics need to see your response and see for themselves if the solar panel to battery circuit can be used properly with the JT circuit without blowing the existing charging circuit.

Getting more from the sun than we are getting now will be a bonus.

i am not into ZPE myself, i don't even have the smalless idea of what that is.
i am all about using known science faqs to do more, with same, or less.
complex mathematics are not what i like best.
but i prefer them to obscure babling about something no one have figured out yet.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on February 09, 2009, 12:49:28 AM

@ all

Ok so it looks like the solar panels work with the sun but not so good with CFL or incandescent lights indoors....maybe no gain to be had there.

The Fuji JT on the other hand still could light up a lot more LED's as far as the bang for the buck, if we were to nail that circuit down to a version that can fit in that UFO looking prototype I posted earlier we can put a prototype together :)

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 09, 2009, 12:50:45 AM

ok guys with the solar pannels im useing the led shuts off because it sences light and charges the battery......

when i place this solar pannel close to the cfl ... it likes it .... makes the pannel read .7v wich is enough to trigger it to charg the battery and this is at night as it burns ...the bulb.... what will happin in my light stick is this the top pannel on the verry top will control the light turn it on and off in the right time the 3 or 4 i will mount below the cfl will strictly be recharge day and night.... they will also feed the cam unit ... wile they charge... i will disconnect all outputs for the leds they are not needed and they do not DISAPATE ENOUGH POWER TO POWER THE CAM UNIT ...

so ... it will require a dirrect connection to the battery ... but we will use the place where the led was on the top l to power a transistor ... to turn on the battery with the photo cell ..

if this makes sence to you all...

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 09, 2009, 12:53:54 AM

@ist

I posted a work around that at the end of last page. I think easy enough.

Just trick the circuit into thinking it always daytime. And put a switch on the light.

Edit : sorry i forgot great work , but then i would be righting it all day long .

Thank again!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on February 09, 2009, 12:54:13 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on February 09, 2009, 12:08:11 AM

IST, you are a great craftman.
cool stuff you got there. 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 09, 2009, 01:01:30 AM

btw there is plenty of room round the cfl to power 4 of thease with out takeing away from the avaible light and they are at the correct angle for the cfl and the sun ...

thank you THENOP for your kind words .. :)

ist!

i will add the peddles tommorow to this overunity.com PROTOTYPE .. BUILT THROUGH COLLECTIVE THOUGHT ;D

AND I WILL MOUNT THE CURCUIT IN THE UNIT AND CALL IT DONE FOR NOW ...

lots more things to build

were just getting started 8)
1 2 3
what makes you feel good on the inside !?!?!?!?! to know that you all have helped.... 8) to share ... to love.... to get rich ?

i choose to share because to share makes me feel good shareing is careing .. and careing is good old LOVE

AS I SAID MONEY IS NOT MY GAME NEVER WILL BE ..... I WILL TAKE YOUR LOVE B4 I EVER WILL TAKE YOUR MONEY!!!

THE 1 THING ;)

HEY 2 OUT OF 3 AINT BAD :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on February 09, 2009, 05:39:29 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 08, 2009, 02:46:09 PM
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/915226/free_electricity_from_thin_air/

I had seen this video before but it was a while ago. Now, with all we know about the jt circuits so far,the 2 volts this guy pulls out of the air should run our toroids....non-stop!!!! I realize this energy comes from radio transmissions...but....so what? Just about everyone has these transmissions around them so why not tap into them for some free light? If we all did this it would not cost the radio station any more than what they are already paying and we all get free light. It looks simple enough to build, even I can probably make one. (ha ha)

Yes when I saw a (different) version of that video I recalled seeing it somewhere...
This "energy from air circuit" is in fact a replication of the Tate Ambient Power Module: http://www.rexresearch.com/tate/tate.htm
Which was (is?) apparently used or at least intended to be used in things like smoke- and seismic- detectors.

I suppose you will indeed "catch" quite a bit of radio signals with it, so the output does depend on the availability of radio signals
to a degree... But in the related papers mention is made of ground radio signals... Which are if I am not mistaken largely
generated by seismic activity... Which would mean we have our RF source right there, in the ground, and we can just
pick up those waves and use this "power module" to turn it into some usefull current. The entire "power module"
is exactly that "energy from air" circuit, which is in fact a rectifying diode bridge of sensitive (germanium) diodes hooked
to an antenna and a capacitor. A simple "electron pump".

Still, this is indeed a circuit that does seem to be usefull as a power source to feed a Joule Thief circuit.
And for those interested in earth batteries, you could probably just stick the antenna in the ground instead
of the air, and that combined with the proper JT circuit would give a neomodern Stubblefield battery setup... sort of. ;)

Regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Thaelin on February 09, 2009, 06:51:58 AM

Here is one for you scaverngers out there. I just found a Kodak
One Step at the as is and it has a flip up flash. In it is a lot of transistors
and a 5 leg transformer like you guys use. Not to mention a 400uf
350v cap. Even an SCR in there. Not bad for $0.50 I think.
I carefully de-soldered all the parts for the K-jt so I can mount them in
my fl tube for over the computer bench. Will do a pic of the thing running
soon.

thaelin

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 09, 2009, 07:12:11 AM

@ Jeanna
The problem you have with the Solar Panel not working when exposed to a white LED is this, the frequency of the white LED does not match the frequency the solar panel, in other words, it won't work.
The solar panel is designed for a yellow sun, not a blue sun, to check this, get a incondesant light bulb and plonk your solar panel under it, the solar panel will give an output, it will also work if you use a halogen light.

Hope this helped you.
BTW, tomorrow (australian time) I will bring out my solar array, and photograph it and show you all.
I made it on planks of boards, soldered a heep in series, this gives my up to 24v DC in MA as it is only small cells in series.
To get Amps, I connect several arrays in Parallel.

@all
The light resistors correct name is a LDR (Light Dependant Resistor), its correct diahgram (icon) is same as a zig zag resistor, but like a LED (whose arrows point outwards) , the light arrows point inwards towards the resistor.

Experiment by shorting it out, this tricks it into thinking the sun is shining. (resistance is LOW)
Open circuit, it will think to turn "on" the batteries, it has charged. (resistance is HIGH)

@ Bill, I am very pleased to hear pussy da cat is almost better and getting back to his old self. Only wish my cat was still here.

About the bushfires, its not good people, the count has risen since my last post, 131 people have died, whole towns have been wiped off the face of the map, very bad situation. If you could imagine this, the whole town/s are a crime scene, I have never heard of a whole town being barred from anyone by police, every house, shed shops factories, etc burnt out, just ash, unreal, it is the biggest dissaster in Australias history.

If you want to follow it, google Australia Bushfires Victoria. Saw a dad on TV, he s lost 2 kiddies, ,,, horrible stuff, and I havent even mentioned the huge floods we in Queensland are having.
Huge fires below me, huge floods above me, hope they don't combine.

I better get back to catching up the posts

Sorry guys, you people (england having snow in London) were having very low temperatures too, mr badger says 6 more weeks of winter for you lot, hmmmmm is this Chemtrails at work? I feel sorry for those in Cannada, burrr, ice on power lines.

We had huge storms around Christmas time, nice blue skies above for a few days, then chemntrails came back.
Got worse floods in history, blue skies back again, I see a pattern here.
Had higher than normal temperatures, especially when chemtrails have been about, water is sucked right out of us and clouds.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 09, 2009, 09:55:00 AM

i found a cap i will add this to a cam unit to see if it will power the cfl unmodded

value is 100nf 275vac

so i tryed the cap with a cfl just the bulb {a moded bulb} no diffrance ... visual on the output i will do the same thing with a un modified cfl curcuit now

the cap should discharge when it is full so it takes a lot less time to fill this cap cuz how much it holds

when i try this on the un modded if my results are not what im expecting ... i will then remove the input cap on the cfl curcuit ...

and replace it with this cap

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 09, 2009, 10:05:52 AM

Quote from: jeanna
mmm
Here is a link to the astable multivibrator.
http://www.play-hookey.com/digital/experiments/rtl_astable.html (http://www.play-hookey.com/digital/experiments/rtl_astable.html)
It is a tutorial so you make it step by step on the diagram. There are others, but I like to get in there and do it, so this is like that but with no parts to drop!
It is a good site like that. good name too!

jeanna

Thank you @jeanna!
I will study it. By the way on an @pese's post, he states that the two caps polarity is wrong on that circuit. I will have to make tests to check that.

Quote from: @pirate

@ Jesus:

Nice circuit there. With what you know now I'll bet you can run a JT from it easily. I think it was you that posted about the stores switching out the diodes on folks? (I wish we could go back a little more while posting so we can answer everyone) Well, I ordered 50 of the 1N34 germanium and they had better be the 1N34's or I am going to call the folks I ordered from and send them back. Thanks for the warning.

I would like that those words about running a jt from that energy from the air circuit were true. Something is holding me back and I cant get the thing to work for me.

@electricme

Be glad even though your country is flooded and on fire. Be glad because the lord loves you and have you untouched by all the event happening. I mean untouched physicaly.

@all

By the way, I have a solar panel under my desk lamp charging the batteries while I read your posts. The batteries lose the charge the first time by themselves but the second time it seems that they hold it.
The garden solar panels from allelectronics when under a 40 watts bulb gives on my desk 3.45 volts without any battery connected to it.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 09, 2009, 10:45:15 AM

i like that schem but we need 2 of them we could call that a npn unit .....

need the other for the other end ;)

are those 3055 ?

i have a SPECIAL TRANSFORMER I FOUND ;D in an old microwave it is bifillar wound .... both primary and secondary ....

maybe i will drop this curcuit on the mot this is a rare mot..... only one i have ever seen i have taken apart over 30 microwaves ...

also i have a big high freq rectifier ..... 8)

maybe i will get to that ... soon

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on February 09, 2009, 10:50:58 AM

What method do you guys use to pull components off old
circuit boards?
I have used a soldering iron and a pair of fine pliers to carefully and
patiently pull the components from the board, but half the time that
is not enough to get them out properly... it often happens that the solder
on one of the connectors has already cooled and solidified again
before I could pull the thing out.
Is there an easier and more foolproof way to do it?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on February 09, 2009, 11:32:18 AM

@ Koen1

I use a solder sucker (check Google images) along with a chisel tip solder iron. I've heard that there is a solder sucker iron (2 in 1) but never seen one myself.

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Thaelin on February 09, 2009, 11:36:44 AM

Its called a de-soldering station. It has a hollow tip and has suction via a button
to extract the molten solder. This is caught in a filter that you clean off periodically.
I have used many of them. Nice, but spendy and requires a vacuum.

thaelin

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 09, 2009, 12:23:56 PM

@ Koen1:

Thanks for the additional info, I will check that out. You can get a desoldering bulb just about anywhere that sells soldering stuff, for just a few bucks. Or, you can buy one of the little squeeze bulbs that are made to suck "boogers" from a baby's nose. To me, these are almost identical. You squeeze the bulb and then heat the component, say one side of a cap, and then, as the solder melts, you place the nozzle of the bulb one the molten solder and let the bulb expand.....poof, the solder gets sucked into the bulb. Then, do the other side of the component and it should come out.

Most of the time, I am too lazy to look for my bulb so I just remove as much solder as I can with my iron tip by cleaning the tip often and then, say with a large cap, get one side loose and pull it to one side, then heat the other side and rock that out as far as it will go, and repeat until it comes free. Yes, a bit of a pain but I have now tupperware containers full of all types of components that I have removed from various boards. you never know when you are going to need something. Hope this helps.

@ Jim:

Man, it sounds like your country is under attack! Did this guy set these fires on purpose? Or were these accidents? (well, one accident that got out of control) We have people in this country that set large forest fires on purpose, mostly in California, but they are all over the US as well. These folks should be shot!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on February 09, 2009, 01:02:34 PM

They have manual solder suckers at radio shack that are pretty cheap. This is what I usually use. Some people also swear by a product called solder wick. It's a woven copper mesh that absorbs the solder. Just place the wick between the solder and the iron.

If it's a smaller board that you are taking parts off of and your not worried about damage to the board, what I have found to be the quickest way of removing components is once you get the solder melted, just give the board a quick rap on the side of your desk and the solder will fly off.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on February 09, 2009, 01:12:35 PM

Hey thanks for the replies people :)
I heard about this "solder sucker" thing before but that was quite
some time ago and I recall at the time the things were quite expensive
so I forgot about it... Now I'm thinking it might be a handy tool...
But Bills suggestion sounds a lot cheaper ;)
I'm not really familiar with a "baby booger collector" but I assume
you're talking about a sort of pipette -like thing?
I'll dig around in my boxes of collected junk to see if I have
one of those old pipettes consisting of a glass tube and a rubber
bulb on it... That should work to suck up liquid solder.

As for the Ozzie forest fires, it is indeed an inferno. I've watched the images on tv,
it's just horrid.
But I do wonder if it is really true that so much of these fires are intentionally set by people...
After all, there's been a dry spell and freakishly high temperatures for the past weeks now,
temp was well over 40 degrees C (104 degrees F) not long ago.
And on top of that the country is riddled with various Eucalypt species that are famous for
1) sucking up all the water 2) producing volitile oils that form highly combusable oil fumes
when it gets hot and 3) stimulating forest fires when they break out, while 4) not dying in a
forest fire like all other plants, thereby slowly but surely increasing both the concentration
of Eucalypt trees as well as increasing the chances of another forest fire. Or at least, I picked
that one up very quickly when I was there.
Are there really people that are stupid enough to actually go about starting fires in such an
environment? Well, I suppose there must be... There's two things that are infinite: the universe,
and human stupidity. And we're still not sure about the first. ;D
Seems to me it's just a matter of time before the next bushfire breaks out so there's really no
need to light one...
And also seems to me that with a fairly extensive forestry program this risk could be reduced
drastically, by removing the gum trees and replacing them with other types of trees. Obviously
that would only work when a large percentage of the gum trees is removed entirely including
roots, or at least killed off incl roots, but that's doable.
Heh, methinks they should just hire me and I'll draw up a plan to give Oz a much less
fire hazardous foliage and use their heat surplus to get fresh water into the dry outback. ;D
Easy peasy, all proven concepts, just needs a lot of manpower to build it all.

Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 09, 2009, 02:34:10 PM

Here's another joule thief in a 2" ferrite core.
The joule thief has 20 turns and the extra pickup coil it has 160 turns,its 3 layers thick.

When its ran off a 12v battery it can light a CFL off the extra pickup coil.

Here is a video of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8durcYVl_E

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 09, 2009, 03:09:25 PM

i have worked out the curcuit for the ou cfl .. stick..

i will build it...... i am no good at drawing curcuits ... i will build it tho and make it work ... it has a jt in it .. 4 leds a transistor to switch on

and off the cam unit wich will light the cfl....... and it used the original led feed ...wich is switched by the controller by sunlight to power the

jt and switch on and off the cam unit

wich is powered dirrectly from the battery ... by passing the charge controller and original output for the led to allow the cam tranny to pull a few more miliamps.. 8)

everything... is used ... ;)

it is half built i have the small jt wound and powering 4 superbright leds from the solar led feed ... im wireing the switch now to turn on the cam unit from the sencer ..

ill post a pic soon this bord is all in 1 and is designed to fit in the top globe on the cfl light stick ... :)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 09, 2009, 03:34:29 PM

Quote from: slayer007 on February 09, 2009, 02:34:10 PM
Here's another joule thief in a 2" ferrite core.
The joule thief has 20 turns and the extra pickup coil it has 160 turns,its 3 layers thick.

When its ran off a 12v battery it can light a CFL off the extra pickup coil.

Here is a video of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8durcYVl_E

Nice video,
for some reason, youtube is not letting me sign in. It bounces me back to signin... grr... I wanted to rate it..

So, I can ask here, to be sure. I made a jt with a lot of secondary turns and got some pretty disappointing results. I did not in this case wind the secondary in more than 1 layer. Do you suppose that is what I should change?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 09, 2009, 03:47:56 PM

it will make a diffrance layered as it will pick up the other half .. on the back wind no?

anyways im haveing good luck with this little unit

i now have the 4led jt running on the solar switch from the orignal feed led supply i have the second transistos soldered and working from the led feed and switching off and on a seprate supply battery an aux batt... from the peddles ... to feed the cam unit i will add that next to the all in 1 board driven by the solar led lights .. i might add extra jt's to the peddles just to use what is already there i will only put a few leds as i would really like to use this power for the cfl...

ist

moveing along nicely today ... :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 09, 2009, 03:53:14 PM

Quote from: jeanna on February 09, 2009, 03:34:29 PM
Nice video,
for some reason, youtube is not letting me sign in. It bounces me back to signin... grr... I wanted to rate it..

So, I can ask here, to be sure. I made a jt with a lot of secondary turns and got some pretty disappointing results. I did not in this case wind the secondary in more than 1 layer. Do you suppose that is what I should change?

thank you,

jeanna

I think it has a lot to do with the cores.
The one I'm using is ferrite.
I tried it with a couple other cores that were not ferrite and I couldnt get any voltage out of second coil.
Even tho the JT was working and puting out 4v for the BEMF.

Mk1 said he was able to get voltage out of his secondary using non ferrite.
But I didnt have any luck with out using ferrite.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 09, 2009, 04:03:21 PM

Thanks both IST and Slayer,
All the toroids I have bought have said simply ferrite toroid.
This one says high permeability. I don't know if that is good or bad for this. Nobody answered my question on that yesterday, so I guess nobody else knows either.

I guess I will just rewind the secondary into a few layers and see what happens, then I will try to sort out some of these properties.

Also Slayer, on this latest video, you show emf voltage and another voltage you say is from the secondary.

I assume that is the rectified voltage off the secondary as MK1 describes it. Is that right?

In the video, you didn't show this secondary voltage when you went to 12volts and the cfl. Did it go off the chart? Do you know what it was?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 09, 2009, 04:09:56 PM

Quote from: jeanna on February 09, 2009, 04:03:21 PM
Thanks both IST and Slayer,
All the toroids I have bought have said simply ferrite toroid.
This one says high permeability. I don't know if that is good or bad for this. Nobody answered my question on that yesterday, so I guess nobody else knows either.

I guess I will just rewind the secondary into a few layers and see what happens, then I will try to sort out some of these properties.

Also Slayer, on this latest video, you show emf voltage and another voltage you say is from the secondary.

I assume that is the rectified voltage off the secondary as MK1 describes it. Is that right?

In the video, you didn't show this secondary voltage when you went to 12volts and the cfl. Did it go off the chart? Do you know what it was?

thank you,

jeanna

Yes, the yellow meter was showing the rectified voltage off the second coil.
The red meter was showing the bemf coming off the collector going through a diode.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 09, 2009, 04:23:10 PM

@all

A very inexpensive test would be to wind a toroid with, 4turns bifilar first coil and 32turns secondary.
Why I say that that would be an easy inexpensive test?

Because 20/160 is equivalent to 1/8. Thus 4turns times 8turns equals 32turns

so: 20/160 is equivalent to 4/32. Both gives as a result 0.125 that is equivalent to 1/8.

I dont know if just 1/8 will work with the transistor. So I think that 4/32 will be safe for the electronic parts.

What do you think?

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 09, 2009, 04:33:50 PM

@ Koen1:

Yes, the "bugger sucker" is just a small, usually blue squeeze bulb (maybe 3" dia) with a plastic nozzle tip. You have to be a little careful not to melt the tip but it is really no problem. If it was, like you said, you could put a glass or copper tube extension on it but I don't think it is needed. These are about $2.00. You can find them in the baby section of most grocery stores by the food and the bottles, etc. Or, you can buy one in an electronics store for more money and I'll bet they are made at the same factory...they look very much the same. I agree with your take on the fires as well.

Slayer:

Nice video man. (5 stars) I'll bet you don't need that 12 volt battery to light the cfl. Where did you find a 2" toroid? Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 09, 2009, 04:40:29 PM

LarryC posted this in another topic. This is a great litle screen capture program that is free and works very well. You can do screen capture shots of schematics from videos, etc. I thought i would pass it on.

ScreenHunter 5.0

This is available from cnet as well as many other download sites. I loaded it this morning and it works as advertised.
much easier and better than the one I used to use.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 09, 2009, 04:55:54 PM

@all

I made a mk1 style on a ferrite last night, My first real ferrite , So there it is 37 turns pickup coils with 8 jt turns.
The first thing is it works about the same on a broader freq range that is good , but i am sorry the output (22v)is lower then some iron i got.

I also tried changing the jt coil every time i remove a turn , the voltage goes up by 3 volt , until you reach a 3 turn then the effects stops , so by the end i got 36 volts, It work with even 1 turns but gave 33 volts only, I get good voltage out of any type of core because i tune then !
This ferrite also is emitting a sound real cool for a musician to hear a project , because it speaks about the freq , i don't have a scope so it a substitute .

I you can get good result from the pickup coil then tune it , you have to get the right freq, i can not stress that enough! Just use a pot or trimpot to find the right value for the core in the first place! If you lower the battery voltage it all fine but tune the core first!

Also I can't really see a big advantage to this project if cant get the best of the toroid in the first place , 20 ma at 1kh and 1ma at 20kh is the same?

For the recycling bit , solder wick is really nice to work with and a cheap alternative , but you will run out eventually ,
I don't even bother with it any more since some some pc PS need a i think a 75 watt iron to work easy , i only got a 50watt
so, just break the board with a par of pliers to get those toroid .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 09, 2009, 04:56:08 PM

Sorry double post , PC issue , I am going down,lol , messenger down, internet half dead , this side takes like 3 minutes to load a page then try logging in , just got a new one explorer opened about a thousand pages, crap.

Keep the good work, I will be back!

Mark

For screen capture , Just press Ctrl and Prt Scr, Then open paint and select in its window paste and save it any format you like.(windows)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 09, 2009, 05:14:33 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 09, 2009, 04:40:29 PM
LarryC posted this in another topic. This is a great litle screen capture program that is free and works very well. You can do screen capture shots of schematics from videos, etc. I thought i would pass it on.

ScreenHunter 5.0

This is available from cnet as well as many other download sites. I loaded it this morning and it works as advertised.
much easier and better than the one I used to use.

Bill

Thank you @pirate I already installed the ScreenHunter you recommended. Now I need to learn how to use.

Quote from: Mk1 on February 09, 2009, 04:55:54 PM
@all

I made a mk1 style on a ferrite last night, My first real ferrite , So there it is 37 turns pickup coils with 8 jt turns.
The first thing is it works about the same on a broader freq range that is good , but i am sorry the output (22v)is lower then some iron i got.

I also tried changing the jt coil every time i remove a turn , the voltage goes up by 3 volt , until you reach a 3 turn then the effects stops , so by the end i got 36 volts, It work with even 1 turns but gave 33 volts only, I get good voltage out of any type of core because i tune then !
This ferrite also is emitting a sound real cool for a musician to hear a project , because it speaks about the freq , i don't have a scope so it a substitute .

I you can get good result from the pickup coil then tune it , you have to get the right freq, i can not stress that enough! Just use a pot or trimpot to find the right value for the core in the first place! If you lower the battery voltage it all fine but tune the core first!

Also I can't really see a big advantage to this project if cant get the best of the toroid in the first place , 20 ma at 1kh and 1ma at 20kh is the same?

For the recycling bit , solder wick is really nice to work with and a cheap alternative , but you will run out eventually ,
I don't even bother with it any more since some some pc PS need a i think a 75 watt iron to work easy , i only got a 50watt
so, just break the board with a par of pliers to get those toroid .

Have you tried the 1/8 configuration. I mean a combination of 4 turns bifilar and 34 turns secondary. If you do please let us know.

Quote from: Mk1
Sorry double post , PC issue , I am going down,lol , messenger down, internet half dead , this side takes like 3 minutes to load a page then try logging in , just got a new one explorer opened about a thousand pages, crap.

Keep the good work, I will be back!

Mark

For screen capture , Just press Ctrl and Prt Scr, Then open paint and select in its window paste and save it any format you like.(windows)

That is what I usually do.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 09, 2009, 05:39:11 PM

@nievesoliveras

4/34 test results , 2n3904 all 22 awg coils , on ferrite (black ferrite that came from a pc used to be covered by white plastic)1 inch buy .5 inch, With a 1 k resistor 16 volts, tuned with a 20ohms i got 29.2 volts.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 09, 2009, 05:46:51 PM

guys i ran into a problem with the second transistor that should turn on the cam unit for some reason it will not turn on the cam .... do i need a diffrent transistor i used a 4401 .. npn i mesure and it says it is working but maybe it can not handle enough power for the cam ....

what else coulid i use in place of this to take a week signal from the

maybe i just need a seprate photo cell to turn it on as this has become tricky ...

i want it automatic no manuel switches...

ist!

how would i wire a photo cell into the cam as my primary switch ?

i will post a pic of where i got to with this unit

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 09, 2009, 05:52:25 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on February 09, 2009, 05:46:51 PM
guys i ran into a problem with the second transistor that should turn on the cam unit
...

i want it automatic no manuel switches...

ist!

Ist,
What if you make the circuit first with a manual switch to prove that all the connections are correct.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 09, 2009, 06:00:05 PM

all apears to be correct!!

this is where im at right now....

im gonna use the photo cell .. a sepreat one i have a bunch but how do i use 1? as an off and on switch??

ist??

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 09, 2009, 06:52:41 PM

@IST your going to have to build the switch . you need a tiny 3 volt relay or just replace the led with a tiny relay that had the photo cell circuit on it .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on February 09, 2009, 06:55:43 PM

Quote from: jeanna on February 09, 2009, 04:03:21 PM
This one says high permeability. I don't know if that is good or bad for this. Nobody answered my question on that yesterday, so I guess nobody else knows either.

QuotePermeability is the inductance per unit length.
In general, permeability isn't a constant, as it can vary with the position in the medium, the frequency of the field applied, humidity, temperature, and other parameters. In a nonlinear medium, the permeability can depend on the strength of the magnetic field.
In ferromagnetic materials, the relationship between B and H fields exhibits both non-linearity and hysteresis: B is not a single-valued function of H, but depends also on the material.

in short, the more permeable a material is the more flux you can pass trough it.
high permeability mean higher current can pass trough the material before saturation.

current is limited by the size of a core and material type.
higher frequencies can core saturate faster too.

@slayer007
unless the frequency at witch your jt operate is really high, all toroid with a secondary coil will work.
even with a nail you should see some voltage out the secondary coil.
it might not be as effective due to its permeability, but you should get something there.

Quote from: innovation_station on February 09, 2009, 03:47:56 PM
it will make a difference layered as it will pick up the other half .. on the back wind no?

in term of volts you will see at the output, it does not matter.
in term of self inductance and self capacitance, there are differences with the way you wind your coils.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 09, 2009, 07:19:07 PM

@ MK1:

Yes, that is , or was, a good command to print the screen but, ever since I obtained service pack 3 for XP, it no longer works. I can hit those commands 100 times and.....nothing. So, now I use this. But, you are correct, it was the way to do it. (at least for me) What ohm pots are you using? I have tried 3 that I salvaged from different devices and I can't get them to make much of a difference. They range from 10 ohm, to 25 and then 50. I have looked online at various electronics sites and the selection of pots seems rather limited. What is a good number to look for? Also, I thought that when turned the one direction, the resistance either went to 0 or went to the full amount of the pot rating. I have tested these using my meter and....yes, the resistance changes but goes nowhere near 0 on either side of the knob turning. I know I need to get the "correct" pots but have no idea what to get or their ratings. Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on February 09, 2009, 07:21:52 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 09, 2009, 04:56:08 PM
Sorry double post , PC issue , I am going down,lol , messenger down, internet half dead , this side takes like 3 minutes to load a page then try logging in , just got a new one explorer opened about a thousand pages, crap.

disable activex and scripting for internet zone (IE settings/Security)
set trusted site zone to medium and add the sites URLs you wish to permit script applet to run to the permition list.

for maximum security, also disable third party extentions, install on demand "other" and java(advanced setting)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 09, 2009, 07:25:31 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on February 09, 2009, 07:21:52 PM
disable activex and scripting for internet zone (IE settings/Security)
set trusted site zone to medium and add the sites URLs you wish to permit script applet to run to the permition list.

for maximum security, also disable third party extentions, install on demand "other" and java(advanced setting)

I agree except, for maximum security, use Firefox. I have not used IE for 1.5 years and I do not miss it one bit. I know all browsers piggyback on explorer to some extent but, Firefox has worked very well for me.....so far.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 09, 2009, 07:36:13 PM

MMM
Thanks NOP for your explanation. I think I understand the implications. If it can absorb more current before it saturates, and it is the saturation that makes the make and break, then I am using/wasting amps just in absorbing to the limit of the higher permeability.
In normal electronics circuits, I think the higher permeability might be an advantage, but maybe here, it is not.

-----

So, I tried a little thing and got a change of results.

I took out about half of the secondary winds of the coil I made yesterday with the high permeability (...I need to keep giving them names! ). I made them go back in the other direction and turned once again. these are uneven amounts and so only a preliminary look at this, but the lights were very much brighter.

The rectified voltage went from 1.09 v rectified to 1.215 v Rectified. So, still low, but higher and the lights are much brighter. The amps were higher too. I forgot to note them, but I turned the v resistor to get the lights to about the same brightness and the amps draw went down to 4.1mA
'corse there are 4 lights running off this - and there could be more so 4.1 mamps / 4 = 1mA draw per light and the rectified voltage was higher too. This is a small change but all in the right driection from yesterdays big hope.

More later, but likely not til tomorrow. I am going to seed savers tonight. wow it has been a month already! 200 pages I think! ;)

So, to recap, I believe it is true that having the secondary/pickup coil go in at least 2 directions is crucial for good results.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 09, 2009, 07:37:27 PM

@pirate Look for at least 10k to 20 k pots i use pcboard mount type

@Mk1 . I guess you didn't run malwarebytes Anti-Malware . I have been in the computer Business for 30 years i can tell you this will fix your problem if its related to Trojans Virus bad programs etc . . First thing is CLEAR YOUR CACHE . run AntiMalware reboot run it again Clear cache and all temp files including cookies and yea uncheck 3 party browser extentions . they suck as Ie does .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 09, 2009, 07:42:17 PM

@ Gadgetmall:

Thank you! the pc board pots can be used on a breadboard right? Radio Shack seems to have a lot of those, just not the panel mount types like i have been used to. Thank you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 09, 2009, 07:57:38 PM

a relay i was really hopeing there was another way what about a mosfet?? as a switch ;)

i have only a few irf 840's left should work tho .... no?

i might be able to just swap out the 4401 for the irf 840

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPQ8IXqAoTc

what ya think?

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 09, 2009, 08:03:11 PM

@ Gadgetmall:

I have a question for you on your modified Fuji circuit. When you run the cfls until the battery is "dead" at your very low mA draw, have you tested the "dead" batteries to see what, if anything is left in them? What I am wondering is this: Will your Fuji take the batteries down below the threshold voltage of the transistor? Or, if you then took those same "dead" batteries and put them into another JT toroid circuit, will they still do anything at all? My guess is (and it, of course, is just a guess) that your Fuji will take the bats down as low as the toroid version of the JT. I was just thinking a minute ago and was very curious. Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on February 09, 2009, 08:16:26 PM

@IST
what you need is any power switching transistor that can disipate as much as the current need by your jt.
it must also have a low base saturation voltage(.5volts or less)

i don't have any part number for now.
i will try to remember to find some for you.

have you tryed with the transistor that are in the CFLs ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 09, 2009, 08:30:42 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 09, 2009, 08:03:11 PM
@ Gadgetmall:

I have a question for you on your modified Fuji circuit. When you run the cfls until the battery is "dead" at your very low mA draw, have you tested the "dead" batteries to see what, if anything is left in them? What I am wondering is this: Will your Fuji take the batteries down below the threshold voltage of the transistor? Or, if you then took those same "dead" batteries and put them into another JT toroid circuit, will they still do anything at all? My guess is (and it, of course, is just a guess) that your Fuji will take the bats down as low as the toroid version of the JT. I was just thinking a minute ago and was very curious. Thanks.

Bill

Yes . i posted the voltage somewhere in here . the battery voltage will be aprox 1.10 1.17 on the two units running . once the clf stops 12.5 hours there is 1.10 -1.17 volts left . that is why i suggested some one get there leds out and see how far it will go on them :) Mine stays hot another 8 -10 hours after so there is plenty of fire power left for leds.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 09, 2009, 08:33:18 PM

no i have not tryed them ...

im on to somthing else for now

ill be back to this unit soon time for a solar jt battery charger ;D

ill whip 1 of thease up dubble time

almost no mods to the solar curcuits..

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 09, 2009, 08:40:55 PM

@ Gadgetmall:

Thank you. I have not thrown an AA battery away since we all started this. I keep thinking....maybe it is not really really dead yet. I have a baggie full of them and some of my friends are saving theirs for me as well. Might as well really kill them before sending them to the landfill.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 09, 2009, 09:19:20 PM

I wanted to see how many 1.2v AA batterys it would take to light the CFL up.
One just wasn't quite enought to light it up.
So I tried two and it light up.
Its not nearly as bright as it was off 12v but its not bad for just two batterys.

Heres a video of it lighting off two 1.2v batterys.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbdBO3o6qX4

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 09, 2009, 10:00:28 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 09, 2009, 08:40:55 PM
@ Gadgetmall:

Thank you. I have not thrown an AA battery away since we all started this. I keep thinking....maybe it is not really really dead yet. I have a baggie full of them and some of my friends are saving theirs for me as well. Might as well really kill them before sending them to the landfill.

Bill

I recharge them with a bedini also until they leak . maybe 10 times .. when they leak it dries to a white power all over the 8 aa holder . i just wash it in baking soda and water and it clean again . . The cool thing is ones that dont leak . They are enigizers and duracell / the off brands and rayovac Leak after 10 or so recharges . BUT you see they are still usable up to this point ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 09, 2009, 10:11:43 PM

Quote from: slayer007 on February 09, 2009, 09:19:20 PM
I wanted to see how many 1.2v AA batterys it would take to light the CFL up.
One just wasn't quite enought to light it up.
So I tried two and it light up.
Its not nearly as bright as it was off 12v but its not bad for just two batterys.

Heres a video of it lighting off two 1.2v batterys.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbdBO3o6qX4

i bet you will light it with one with a darlington circuit ! good going . looks like you will win that contest . Light a clf from a toroid with one aa !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 09, 2009, 10:30:41 PM

here is a picture of the driver board for the light stick im working on ...

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: weri812 on February 09, 2009, 11:46:19 PM

hello IS ;D ;D

been a long time, like your work.

found this at harbor freight will do the job with a jt and 100 led.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=41427

will build a jt now just to prove it.

all of you are doing good work keep going

God Bless all
wer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 10, 2009, 12:25:22 AM

@ Wer:

First, welcome to our group! Next, that is a great price for something like that. I purchased 3 solar cells a few weeks ago and have not had the time to work with them. Thank you for posting this, and again, welcome to our band of merry experimenters here.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 10, 2009, 01:11:07 AM

@ IST:

I have no idea what you are working on there (photo) but, I am sure it is very good and....keep up your great work. I really wish I knew more about this stuff, but I don't. But, I am learning. Thank you for your many contributions to our topic.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 10, 2009, 01:13:07 AM

@ weri812
Welcome, I have just taken a look at the Solar Cell charger, very nice.

@ all
Just unpacked, and pulled apart my new shed solar light setup ($20 at woolworths), it has a simple PCB same as in a single round solar light, except this does not have a LDR to turn on at dusk.
The solar cell is 195mm x 95mm, is mounted on a swivle base, it charges a 3.6v small nicad battery which is mounted behind the 5 hi bright LED array, warrenty is blown now lol, think I might get a few more if they are not all bought up.

Might mount each one in a bedroom, and drive by a JT, using a single 1.2v niCad

jim

photo0373.jpg = Whole assembly
photo0374.jpg = Solar cell
photo0375.jpg = close up of 5 LED unit

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 10, 2009, 01:19:34 AM

Quote from: slayer007 on February 09, 2009, 09:19:20 PM
I wanted to see how many 1.2v AA batterys it would take to light the CFL up.
One just wasn't quite enought to light it up.
So I tried two and it light up.
Its not nearly as bright as it was off 12v but its not bad for just two batterys.

Heres a video of it lighting off two 1.2v batterys.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbdBO3o6qX4

Coo-ool, Slayer.
A perfect end to this day. I awoke this morning thinking, "hey, maybe it would work with 3 volts. Who says it HAS to be 1.5 volts? just because it is a joule thief.!!!"

Thank you so much for this demonstration that answers my 'question of the day'!

jeanna

Wow, this thread is soo excellent!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 10, 2009, 01:27:24 AM

@ Jeanna and all:

I agree with Jeanna. I am not married to 1.5 volts with the AA battery. What got me into this in the first place was to see what an AA bat could do. We have all seen some amazing things. Now, if someone can run my heat pump using 3 volts, I am all for it!!! I just like how we have moved away from the brute force method of producing light....usable light. Anyone can make light using 120 volts @ 20 amps but....look what we have done with far less. And, we are far from done yet!

I really admire Gadgetmall's circuit with its low power draw. This is why I personally want to stick with the tiny AA battery. Let's see what it can really do. But, if someone wants to use something else, say, a little larger, I say go for it.

Very nice job to all of you folks on here. If I could buy all of you dinner and a beer, I would do so.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 10, 2009, 01:45:26 AM

@all

Thank for all your help for the pc situation , a good news is i am back , the bad i had to reinstall, i also made friend with Linux.

@gadgetmall

I tried your soft but my system could not run it anymore, thanks again.

@newcomers

Good bless those that stand.
Thank again ! Welcome!

@pirate

I use a 30 turn 5k trim-pot so i got 30 turns of range and can dial in anything even none standard value , helpful with coil .
On this project i use only 2 of the legs that is important the first and second one ,
Its a picture of one of those types to get the idea. If you like internet order try abra electronics and addison , And the can is at 83c/us,abra has a real nice selection of solar panel. Addison has germanium diode and transistor.

This is the reason i need a pc these days, I just can't believe yet how things can change in one month.
We may not find all the answers but i think we could show the power of sharing in achieving incredible goals , and a sens of community and greater good.

Thank again !

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 10, 2009, 03:00:29 AM

@ Mark:

Thank you! I will look for one of those pots now. I feel the need to adjust my resistance to get the best results. I have not had that thus far.

Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 10, 2009, 03:21:25 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 10, 2009, 01:45:26 AM
@all

Thank for all your help for the pc situation , a good news is i am back , the bad i had to reinstall, i also made friend with Linux.

We may not find all the answers but i think we could show the power of sharing in achieving incredible goals , and a sens of community and greater good.

Thank again !

Mark

I am glad you are back. (remember, I have just spent the last 2 months reinstalling all my software too)
I think Linux is a good friend to make! almost no viruses etc. and just about any software you could ever want and free and with friendly open source help. What could be better? or at least the way I like it. sharing etc.

@All,
I just did a very small comparison. I just compared the 4 toroids made from the "charcoal" ferrite material.
3 were made with 11T, 11t primary and varying secondaries
1 was made with 6T , 6t and 6 secondary turns.

Of the 3 made with 11T,11t primary:
the 7 turn secondary gave the dimmest light with the least rectified voltage and least amperage.

The one with 20 turns secondary gave much brighter light a bit more rectified volts and amps and
the one with 26 turns secondary gave a very bright light. so bright I could turn the extra resistor to 20kVat the base.
1.99Rect volts
6mA

The one made with only 6T, 6t and a small 6 turn secondary, made very dim light
yet it drew 9.6mA and only gave 1.16 rect. volts.

I turned the base resistor back to 645r and the lights got bright, but the amp draw was up to 27.8mA and the rectified volts were only 1.46rect volts.

I don't know why this small number of primary turns should matter, if it does. In the MK1 there are only 7T, 7t and 52 secondary turns and it gives 29 rectified volts and lights the lights very well. It used 21mA. The hybrid which is 11T,11t and 52 secondary turns also lights 30 lights brightly on a single turn secondary and uses 19mA for the array or .6mA each light.

This is so much better.

Maybe it is just the material. this is such a variance in performance.

I can check out the material a little tomorrow. I can use an arrangement like the worst producer and see how it does with the material like what I used for the MK1 and the hybrid.
==
I also tried to add just a second jt wound toroid to a full jt. I wanted to see if it would be possible to have 1 transistor switch for 2 toroid outputs. It only played one light at a time. That may warrant more tests, It might be a question of resonance between the 2 toroids but it seems a wrong alley too.
OK done for the night.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 10, 2009, 03:41:59 AM

@ Jeanna:

You are one heck of an experimenter! Keep up your great work. Thanks for being here with us.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 10, 2009, 04:53:15 AM

@ Gary
I have only just read your suggestion of using a bone on a mouse trap, this seems like a good idea, next time I have chook, Ill save a bone.
Thanks for your suggestion Gary.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 10, 2009, 06:04:18 AM

@ Xee2
Quite a few posts back you mentioned about current and keeping the battery going or lasting as long as possible.
I been thinking about this over the last few days, hmmm (im thinking lol) ok, we all have been trying to conserve the 1.2 or 1.5v batteries, and that is wonderful, but, what would happen if the JT was wound with heavy wire (same turns) but the transister was changed to reflect this heavy wire, say by the usage of a 2n3055 device which can handle amps.

Would it work? dont know, going to try tomorrow.
See if it will work, see if I can get a bita heat in my torid.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on February 10, 2009, 07:19:03 AM

@IST: what are you trying to do, exactly?
I see you post a lot on some kind of photo-sensitive component
or some other like a mosfet to use as a switch...
What are you planning to do with the switch that you can't do with
a transistor?
Can't you use a Reed/Reid switch?

@all: Is there a common goal to our tinkering here, at all?
It is clear we're all playing with Joule Thief setups and variations
on the circuit, but what are we trying to do, really?
Is the goal to light as many LEDs as possible on one AA,
or is it to light as many CFTs on one AA, or is it to get one nearly
empty AA to light many LEDs, or is it to get actual OU output
from a JT variation...
... or is it just to toy around with a small transformer?

The camera mods are all roughly related to trying to light fluorescent
tubes, the classics to lighting LEDs, but then there's IST and
MK who appear to have something in mind seeing their large
numbers of posts, but it is unclear what...

Anyone for making some sense out of the jumble of sidelines here? ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 10, 2009, 07:46:04 AM

right now im building an out door entrance light ... powered by 6 solar units from ramma i used 1 of my led boards .. i made 6 toroides from the cfl toroides .. they will be powered by the solar unts ... each ring will power 9 superbright leds

for a total of 54 leds 10 mm my pocket blinder .... 8) might need your shades .. the thing is 2 " thick there bouts ..

just put it where ever you want ... this will last more than 24 hours....

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on February 10, 2009, 07:58:31 AM

Ok, so you're planning to use the solar cell during the day
to charge your caps or a battery, then use that to power
several JTs with their array of LEDs during the night?

So the gain would be in lighting more LEDs from that
solar charged battery than would "normally" be possible?

I thought you were working on an OU JT but you're
working on a solar powered JT instead...
Or did I miss something?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on February 10, 2009, 08:59:23 AM

The core of the torroids material has to be matched to the frequencies employed in the circuit. The faster the circuit the less permeable the core material needs to be. At real high frequency just the permeability of air is needed. Magnetic amplifiers control the permeabiltiy or when the core material will saturate. If the ac or pulsed signal to be controlled encounters a saturated magnetic core it passes down the circuit unimpeded. If the core is unsaturated the voltage rise and fall converts into magnetic compression and rarification of the core material and the voltage wave is said to be choked. What is real important to understand here is that dc current flow is a collisional thing. Electrons bumping into other electrons and so forth all the way down the wire. These randomized collisions are very inefficient resulting in heating of the conductor proportional to the amount of collisions necessary to get the job done. Wheras a pulsed rise and fall of voltage transmits it's power as a wave through the conductor electric field. You can have a dc current flowing in a wire and impose on this same piece of wire an ac signal that travels right through the same electric field or conductor. It's like if you had a pipe full of water and you need some pressure down the other end. You can do it two ways. Build up some pressure at the pump against an open valve. Or just smack the end of the filled pipe. Either way you will see the pressure gauge down at the other end go up and down. One is an inertial wave while the other is a resisted flow. Which is more efficient? RESISTED flow or inertial wave. The best part about smacking the pipe is that the wave will do it's thing down the end of the pipe and turn around and do it at the other end you smacked for quite awhile while you take a breather.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 10, 2009, 09:32:07 AM

im just finishing a few things i have laying around ... will post a pic to day of this unit ...

yes solar recharged batteries powering a array of leds .... for the purpous of light ..

next is the same unit just as a cap charger or a battery charger that is on todays list aswell

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on February 10, 2009, 10:31:15 AM

alright then now I get what you're working on ;)
So that switch thing using a photodiode or whatever, that you were
trying to figure out, that was intended to detect when night falls
and then switch on the JT+LED circuit?
Could you not use the solar panel for that in its entirety?
As in, sun goes down, solar panel no longer produces any output,
circuit detects the drop in output and uses that to switch on
the JT circuit... that kind of thing?

As for the JT battery charger, maybe this link could be usefull:
http://www.instructables.com/id/Joule_Thief_Charger
It's fairly straightforward though, only shows how a nearly dead
battery can be used to charge another battery that has more charge in it.
And the implementation is extremely simple: the guy just
hooks his rechargeable battery to the JT output directly.
So perhaps not quite as usefull an instructable but still, there's
a version of a JT charger idea. ;)

Here's an idea: if we can use "ground radio" signals to charge caps,
we could run a JT battery charger on those, then use the charged battery
to run a JT with LEDs... And maybe you wouldn't even need a solar panel
to make your night light work... :)
Plus it could recharge while the LEDs are lit up too.
And of course this could be combined with your solar panel to produce
even more output...

@all: do you think it is possible to build a JT circuit that does not use
transistors, with minimal use of resistors? After all, resistors primarily
produce resistance, turning usefull electrical energy into waste heat,
which seems like squandering good electricity. ;)
I ask because I've been wondering if a JT circuit was already possible
before transistors were developed... Sure, I suppose the right electron
valves ("vacuum tubes") with a control grid could, at the right voltages, be used
as a transistor, and I suppose the same could be done with a "magnetic
amplifier"-like transformer with a control coil... And Tesla of course used
spark gaps to produce the "make and break" effect...
But would it be possible to do so without spark gap or space charge zone
through which the voltage pulse must pass, in a solid state version?

Also, and this is another idea that just came to mind, could we not
use an air-core coil to produce a self-oscillating LC type circuit,
and then use this oscillation as the "make and break" for one or more
JTs? And of course if that would be possible, the next step would be
to see if we can't wind the JT coils on the air-core coil itself...
But maybe that's just a silly idea. ;D If so, please point it out. ;)

Regards,
Koen

P.S. The high-pitched soundthat hardly anyone hears is now,
after modifying a third camera circuit, confirmed and must come from
the magnetostrictive effects on the transformer cores. Apparently
some cores of equal size are not of exactly the same composition
and this results in different magnetostrictive properties.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 10, 2009, 10:59:12 AM

koen1

im glad your here you have great ideas... cant wait to build them ...

on the light stick ... i was going to have the second transistor switch the aux cells and batteries on and for the cfl unit ...

and use the solar units as is only to recharge the batteries the unit on the top will control both jt and cfl ... but there is a problem where the transistor does not supply enough juice for the cam unit to operate ... there is lots of juce in the battery but the transistor will not supply it

i think all i need to do to compleate that unit is find 1 that will handle the power ....

or finally get gadgets mod to work ...... i have not had good luck with his mod as of yet .. but im sure it is because i do not have the same transformer and switch ..

i have 1 more ring to wind on my 54 10 mm super bright pannel ... this thing goes like .5 mile .... 8)

i used pin spots... 12 deg spred leds... verry nice security light ;)

ist!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 10, 2009, 01:04:43 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 09, 2009, 05:39:11 PM
@nievesoliveras

4/34 test results , 2n3904 all 22 awg coils , on ferrite (black ferrite that came from a pc used to be covered by white plastic)1 inch buy .5 inch, With a 1 k resistor 16 volts, tuned with a 20ohms i got 29.2 volts.

Mark

Thank you @mk1 !
I thought that it was going to give more volts.

What do you think on multivibrating the camera transformer as this guy does with his transformer and gets lots of electricity.
He uses 24 volts, we will use 1.5v with the same multivibrating idea.

His video link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3yvdXIjGSo

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 10, 2009, 01:17:27 PM

so there you have it !!!

congrats!!

ist!

thank you jesus .. :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 10, 2009, 01:27:47 PM

@jesus, that is a really cool circuit he has. transistors feeding into each other and also into the transformer.

@All,
Since I was the one who mentioned the multivibrator, I want to comment.

Although it is a good idea, I personally like the mag idea better. It is potentially fussy, but if the 2 magnets can be tuned to resonate, and the saturation of the materials will probably determine that, such that they switch on and off, I think we can get this going without the need for a switching transistor. Maybe the toroid or 2 toroids can supply the switching as well as the transformer-amplification function simultaneously.

I am happy to play with the transistor for now, myself, until I iron out the wrinkles in the designs that are not related to the transistor. Then I will be ready to try to remove it and tune the magnetic aspect of the cores.

I think MK1 is on that already.

@Koen, by the end of your post, I think you answered your own question about the many directions we are going.

I am happy with all the cross-seeding of ideas. I will be glad to return to this on March 2 when I return from my winter camping thing. I am still here til friday and will keep playing right up to the last minute, I think!

Thank you everybody,

jeanna

EDIT:
I was just going back to fetch the drawing from MK1 on that mag amp and I see, way before me, Gadgetmall has put the astable multivibrator in the mag amp circuit. I was thinking along other times at the time and didn't pay close attention! It is always good to re-read this loong thread! -j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 10, 2009, 02:27:54 PM

Here's a short video showing the CFL light off one AA battery.
Using one transistor to trigger the base of the other.
It lights but it's not bright.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peOiMKL7zeI

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 10, 2009, 02:39:33 PM

the mention of the super caps the multivibrator the crystals the bifillar steel copper wire not connected ;) amoung all aother things i was hitting on 2-3 years ago ....

cost me 6 computers .... i deleted my info bout the multivibrater when i finally caught on .... 8)

yes i dirrectly related ALL OF THE THINGS I MENTION TO THE TPU 2-3 YEARS AGO...... :P

IST

LOL!

AND IM SURE THERE WERE SOME OTHERS B4 ME .....BUT NOT MANY ;) THAT EVER SPOKE PUBLIC OF THIS I DID AND CAME TO MY CONCLUSIONS FROM THE SETVEN MARKS VIDEOS....

YEA .... NOT FAR OFF EH!!!!!

8)

just 1 more TRUTH OF MY LEARNING PROCESS... ;D i figured out the tpu and when i finally unconfused my self ... what did i discover ???

well i will tell the concept is the same as i posted in my first 2 weeks of being on this site ..... i learned i already figured it out b4 i posted ANYTHING PUBLIC...

how so you say .... IT IS A POSITIVE FEED BACK LOOP as is my turbine ... self accelerating ... the EXACT SAME THING I EXPLAINED IN MY VERRY FIRST THRED ON OU

CHEERS!

HENCE WHY I CALL THIS THE DEVICE OF 1000 STYLES... :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 10, 2009, 02:59:38 PM

Quote from: slayer007 on February 10, 2009, 02:27:54 PM
Here's a short video showing the CFL light off one AA battery.
Using one transistor to trigger the base of the other.
It lights but it's not bright.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peOiMKL7zeI

Slayer007:

I think the light was pretty bright. Nice work. Are your transistors linked like in a Darlington pair?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 10, 2009, 03:48:32 PM

just thought i would mention i found a photo cell with transistor for 1 buck at ramma and it is for switching 120v

will play with this and see if it will switch my cfl on ...

also i just built the unit jesus just posted i will picture it later on tooo and my micro jt's i built a 6 pac ... it is 2.5" by 1"

ist

btw on the board is printed 94v -0 humm it should work ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 10, 2009, 04:18:12 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 10, 2009, 02:59:38 PM

Slayer007:

I think the light was pretty bright. Nice work. Are your transistors linked like in a Darlington pair?

Bill

Thanks Bill

Yes, There linked like a darlington pair.

There both 2n3055's ones base is hooked up to the joule thief then it has the positive coming into the collector.
Then the emitters going to the base of the other.
Then the collector of the second one goes to the JT and the emitter's going to negative of the source.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on February 10, 2009, 04:21:44 PM

@All
after reading one of jeanna reports, i noticed that one of my reply to IST might confuse peoples.
i could not edit it back.

Quote from: ISTit will make a difference layered as it will pick up the other half .. on the back wind no?

Quote from: TheNOPin term of volts you will see at the output, it does not matter.
in term of self inductance and self capacitance, there are differences with the way you wind your coils.

the volt/amp per turn will be the same no matter how you lay your coils.

the way you lay a coil will make the self inductance and self capacitance of a coil different for each way you wind it.

in the joule thief circuit, changing inductance and/or capacitance of the circuit will change the frequency its operate at.
if frequency change, output volt/amp will change, same thing happen when changing resistance to the base.

Quote from: Koen1 on February 10, 2009, 07:19:03 AM
@all: Is there a common goal to our tinkering here, at all?
It is clear we're all playing with Joule Thief setups and variations
on the circuit, but what are we trying to do, really?
Is the goal to light as many LEDs as possible on one AA,
or is it to light as many CFTs on one AA, or is it to get one nearly
empty AA to light many LEDs, or is it to get actual OU output
from a JT variation...
... or is it just to toy around with a small transformer?

The camera mods are all roughly related to trying to light fluorescent
tubes, the classics to lighting LEDs, but then there's IST and
MK who appear to have something in mind seeing their large
numbers of posts, but it is unclear what...

Anyone for making some sense out of the jumble of sidelines here? ;)

common goal is: learning
the goals are all of what you mentioned.
don't you like things that actualy work and can be use for something ?

IST and MK1 are not the only ones that have something on their mind...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 10, 2009, 04:34:47 PM

Hi everyone,
I just finished my test on the core.
To review, I used the core that has given me the best results by far. I used this core for the MK1 and the Hybrid and it just worked so well. I used the worst performing combination of turns. One that drew more amps to make a dim light.

That winding was 6T, 6t bifilar with a 6 turn secondary.
I think this proves that the core makes a big difference.

To review, the jt toroid made with 6T,6t with 6 secondary turns on the "charcoal" ferrite core, the secondary produced these results:

Base Var resistor 20K ohm
9.6mA draw , 1.16 rect voltage- lights are very dim

to make the lights bright I needed to make the Base var resistor 645 ohm
27.8mA draw. , 1.46 rect voltage

NOW
This toroid today also has 6T,6t bifilar with 6 turns secondary.
As a joule thief with the light in at the C and E positions the light is blazing. It hurts to look at it.
22.3mA (this is more light than I expect at 22.3 mA, (but this is a subjective value.)
24.4mA (NO LIGHT at all. This is just the transistor in place in the circuit!!! higher than with a light!)

with 6 turns secondary
21.6mA draw from the secondary 3 lights blazing bright.

I turned the var resistor to 20kohm where the lights are nice and bright.
4.2mA draw, 1.6 rect voltage.

so at 20kohm with the filter core
the amp draw is about half,
the volts produced are nearly 50% more, and
the lights are very much brighter!

same transistor, caps breadboard lights all the same except the different cores.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 10, 2009, 04:44:31 PM

@all

I think its time to repost this one ? I would really like a positive feedback on this one! ;)
Also it need to build momentum.

Look how nice it is.

@koen1
I don't care much about ou , but powering a city on a 1.5v battery that is still unproven but theorize has plausible , unlike ou. Also the fact that this runs from very low voltage and amps
makes it possible to run from (pelletier, solar panel, mini wind turbine , peizo , Hall sensors , even 2 galvanic ground wire,from air ? etc ) anything they can't sell me on pay per use. If that is all that is needed then why ou ? It takes money to make money , i think it take electricity to make electricity .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 10, 2009, 04:49:03 PM

Quote from: slayer007 on February 10, 2009, 04:18:12 PM

Thanks Bill

Yes, There linked like a darlington pair.

There both 2n3055's ones base is hooked up to the joule thief then it has the positive coming into the collector.
Then the emitters going to the base of the other.
Then the collector of the second one goes to the JT and the emitter's going to negative of the source.

Thanks for doing that slayer.

What a great thing!

It is so much easier than that fuji board with its unknown transformer. and these are high voltage switching transistors, not really meant for much amplification, I understand. (Someone told me the hfre is only 2 or 3 on these 3055's) (so, I bought some) ;D

thank you ,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 10, 2009, 05:01:39 PM

Slayer007:

I just ordered a boatload of the 2n3055's so I can finally complete my Bedini motor. (SSG) So, since I will have about 50 of these lying around, I should be able to attempt to replicate your work. I just wish I had more time.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 10, 2009, 06:00:47 PM

well

i finally found some fine turn pots... 15 turn 1k and 20k 15 turn also i found some trimmer caps 0-50pf 95-420 ;D lol

so i may be able to tune in the gadget mod now i sure hope so ...

i only have 270ohm resistors for the invertor unit ... i will build it with those first see how it works out

ist

a few pics ..... tiny jt 6 pac

and the invertor 2n3055 and 270 ohm resistor 5w

ok good all done the invertor now back to work on the solar light ... the light stick .... and the solar powered jt battery charger / cap charger ...

more pics as i finish the next units.. then the gadget mod .... ;D

oh i have a set of unfinished mag amps too lol always a thing or 2 to do
:)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 10, 2009, 07:29:39 PM

@ist (Quote)
on the light stick ... i was going to have the second transistor switch the aux cells and batteries on and for the cfl unit ...

and use the solar units as is only to recharge the batteries the unit on the top will control both jt and cfl ... but there is a problem where the transistor does not supply enough juice for the cam unit to operate ... there is lots of juce in the battery but the transistor will not supply it

i think all i need to do to compleate that unit is find 1 that will handle the power ....

or finally get gadgets mod to work ...... i have not had good luck with his mod as of yet .. but im sure it is because i do not have the same transformer and switch ..
(/QUOTE)
Heres an idea for your Switch using the circuit that comes with it plus an SCR
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4581542.html

Also is this what you want ?12 ma Draw ?CFL ? CHEAP AA POWER ?? :) Look Close there is a Switch ! I use a lot of Switcheds this is just like My Kicker Switch on the SCR bedini . its a monetary push kicker. Adj lower than lit then FIRE ! .. Haha . I sound like you now been hanging around here too long . GEEEZZZ .. i don't know what up with youtube but when the new video comes online have Close look at that FuGi .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iINoVWbdBpk

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 10, 2009, 07:38:26 PM

wheres the video.... ??

didnt upload ?

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on February 10, 2009, 07:39:39 PM

@IST
maybe you already found yourself a switch transistor, but just in case.

3904 = 330 miliwatt
13001 = 600 miliwatt <--in sunbeam 9 watt neon light

you might be lucky with some computer PS power transistor.
e13007, 2sc2625, both are 80 watts
c4242 is 40 watt
but i don't know the min trigger voltage for them.

i am still trying to find a 1 ~ 3 watts transistor, but have not got any lucky yet.

B.T.W. i think i previously took the wrong reading...
the circuit in the garden lights, both kind = ~ 55 miliamp X 1.2 volts = 66 miliwatt
55 miliamps, not 270 miliamps as i previously stated.
sorry for any inconvenients that might have caused. :-[

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 10, 2009, 07:54:17 PM

thank you

THENOP

that will help me and everyone for sure!!!!

here is the transistor number i found in the photo sencer unit at ramma..

xl 1225 08 d it comes with a photo cell for 1 buck i have not tested it yet or looked up the specks...

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 10, 2009, 07:56:16 PM

Quote from: slayer007 on February 10, 2009, 04:18:12 PM

Thanks Bill

Yes, There linked like a darlington pair.

There both 2n3055's ones base is hooked up to the joule thief then it has the positive coming into the collector.
Then the emitters going to the base of the other.
Then the collector of the second one goes to the JT and the emitter's going to negative of the source.

Yep Told ya how you would win didn't i ? :) good Job Slayer 007 . Its light isnt it ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 10, 2009, 08:13:48 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on February 10, 2009, 04:21:44 PM
@All
after reading one of jeanna reports, i noticed that one of my reply to IST might confuse peoples.
i could not edit it back.

the volt/amp per turn will be the same no matter how you lay your coils.

the way you lay a coil will make the self inductance and self capacitance of a coil different for each way you wind it.

in the joule thief circuit, changing inductance and/or capacitance of the circuit will change the frequency its operate at.
if frequency change, output volt/amp will change, same thing happen when changing resistance to the base.

common goal is: learning
the goals are all of what you mentioned.
don't you like things that actualy work and can be use for something ?

IST and MK1 are not the only ones that have something on their mind...

ANYONE here that ACTUALLY CONTRIBUTED TO A CIRCUIT ,TEST OR REPLICATION Has something on their Mind . Most of it was Spoonfed . Not any more !You gotta Build it Before you know what it can do .http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iINoVWbdBpk I Myself Want something from nothing and got it . Others want Power which is always a Plus . I will Stick with the 1 volt systems after all 1 volt is much easer to get for free from the ground than 3 volts. I luv My LPJT on My earth battery . Perpetual Light ! .. and guess what .. I got circuit so low so low on the input there nothing there to measure once she runs :) .kick her once and she on . Patent pending soon i hope .. ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 10, 2009, 08:18:13 PM

Geeze! Is there a problem with youtube tonight? The last 2 vid links posted on our topic here both say video is not available. Anyone else getting this?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 10, 2009, 08:41:53 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 10, 2009, 08:18:13 PM
Geeze! Is there a problem with youtube tonight? The last 2 vid links posted on our topic here both say video is not available. Anyone else getting this?

Bill

yes,
I just checked with slayer007's video from last night so it is OK.
Maybe the upload is off today.

Did anyone else have trouble signing in lately? My signin returns a message that it is wrong, but it wasn't wrong a few days ago???

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 10, 2009, 09:06:24 PM

lol LOL lol LOL ;D ;D ;D ;D

gadget you ROCK!!!!!! 8) 8) 8)

NOW THAT WAS FUNNY!!!!!!!!!!!!

LOL

anyhow i switched the transistor in the light stick ... and it turned on the clf low im thinking it is still the transistor ... i used a 3904

looks like it will work but MY UNIT DRAWS TOOOOO MUCH POWER FOR MY LIKEING ...

so switch problem is fixed i will rebuild this unit and allow room for fixed value componments

but i have to build a gadget test board first to test the unit out ...b4 i hard board the cam unit ....

i will whip another board up dubble time ...

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 10, 2009, 09:34:32 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 10, 2009, 08:18:13 PM
Geeze! Is there a problem with youtube tonight? The last 2 vid links posted on our topic here both say video is not available. Anyone else getting this?

Bill

yea its screwy tonight . takes forever to go online after upload !! Hey pirate :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 10, 2009, 09:43:46 PM

Gadgetmall:

It's working now. Great vid man! That is good and bright! Nice work!

Bill PS Thanks for the mention in your video.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on February 10, 2009, 10:03:00 PM

You guys need to get organized and do a julethief sit in at a dead tree burner
(power plant). Those idiots could be using 10 percent or less of what they are now. Maybe the dept of Energy will fund something besides neuclear fusion which is gonna make fission look squeaky clean. That's what we all need is changing water into helium. I like the float away ballons and all but how many tons of helium do we really need in the stratosphere.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 10, 2009, 10:09:12 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 10, 2009, 09:43:46 PM
Gadgetmall:

It's working now. Great vid man! That is good and bright! Nice work!

Bill PS Thanks for the mention in your video.

Thanks . I'm so Broke Im starting to feel Like King Midas With a Curse .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 10, 2009, 10:35:31 PM

@ gadget

nice video ... btw i thought your joke was NO VIDEO saying do it your self lol ;)

so well were playing around lol i have a TPU RIDDLE FOR EVERYONE ....

how do you make millions of kicks combine togather as 1 big KICK of current?

answer: !?!?!?!?! ??? oooo yea thats right FIGURE IT OUT !! ;D 8)

ist??

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 10, 2009, 11:00:53 PM

Gadgetmail, I rated it and commented. I finally got through. I guess I had clicked deny one too many times to youtube cookies --- and gmail too. I found it. OK on both counts. what a trip.

@Bill, don't you have a very IN focus pic of the fuji circuit that gadgetmail could use to show the place where he added the cap?

I just cannot see it. I haven't pulled out my fuji boards for more than a half hour, I admit. I am seriously trying to do this with the little toroid, but, I am sure I will learn a lot by getting the fuji board figured out. That is why I am asking.

@GM if Bill doesn't have a good in focus shot of the part you modified, I will take a pic with the xo cuz the pics from that xo are really good. Please, I am still not sure of the cap placement on that transformer.

(I loved your video.)
thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 10, 2009, 11:30:15 PM

I wound another toroid today.
The joule thief was the same but the pickup coil I made biger.
This one was eight layers thick.

I didn't make a video of it but it does light the cfl a lot brighter.
So I guess you should try to make your pickup coil as big as you can.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 10, 2009, 11:34:35 PM

Jeanna:

You mean these? This was before I cut the diode and also mounted my other lead to the pin on the transformer and the trigger coil. I think these are the most clear shots I have though.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 10, 2009, 11:38:20 PM

Here is one after my other modification. This should be better.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 10, 2009, 11:41:37 PM

@ all the world.

Bush Fire toll in Australia is at 181 dead and climbing, Police Commissioner said there were about another 15 bodies, she said the coroner has been advised to have at least 300 places avaliable, awful this.

They found a hall filled with bodies, several towns been obliberated, wiped out, nothing but ashes and cinders, this needs to be confirmed.

Funerals are going to be hard going.

So many countries have offered help, makes one feel so humble, so good knowing there are people out side of Australia who care.

@ Bill
I see someone has posted a photo of the geranimum diode, Bill, this diode is a glass encapusalated device, you can even see the "cats whisker" inside it. These can be found in transister radios, look in the IF section, around the tuner section.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 10, 2009, 11:49:13 PM

@all

Thank for all the positive feedback!

Think of this like a mk1 with 4 pickup coils , the positive of one coil set feeding the the other in perfect sync.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 10, 2009, 11:57:56 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 10, 2009, 11:49:13 PM
@all

Thank for all the positive feedback!

Think of this like a mk1 with 4 pickup coils , the positive of one coil set feeding the the other in perfect sync.

Mark

Mark:

Not to sound stupid but are there 4 pick-up coils there? Or just primary and secondary? I am still learning on how to read electronic schematics so if the answer is there plain in front of me and I don't see it, that is why. I will build this as soon as the rest of my parts arrive. Thank you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 11, 2009, 12:01:46 AM

@jim,
This is such terrible news.
I know Australian firefighters have helped in the Northwest more than once since I have lived here. Once in California and once again in Washington. Sharing help worldwide. It is the way it always should be. Bless all

@Bill,
Yes, actually the first 2 are the ones I was thinking of. They are big and sharp and UNmodified makes it clearer exactly what to do. Hopefully folks who have not ID'd themselves here yet, will be able to make little bright units for rooms in their homes.

@Gadgetmall, does this sound good to you? I also would like a clear shot of the way you made the switch for the high voltage hit to start it up when a little gone.

@ Slayer
I'm on it slayer,
I will see how many I can pack in, now I know which core to use

Thanks so much.
Everybody!
Wow, when you step back and see the contribution. This is awesome!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 11, 2009, 12:02:33 AM

@ Jim:

Thanks. I now have 50 of them on order. (along with a bunch of other fun stuff)

Yes, I have been hearing about the fires down there a lot on the news. They still don't say if they were set, or accidents? I hope they are not getting close to your location there. If it looks like they might...get the hell out. Be smart and maybe head to the coast. Take care of yourself Jim. I am sure the US is offering whatever help we can provide. Australia is our friend. Please be careful.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 11, 2009, 12:04:17 AM

@pirate

Yes on the plan the 2 coil on the left are from the jt side , On the right 4 coil , 2 series of 2 coil , one feeding the other.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 11, 2009, 12:08:58 AM

Quote from Jeanna:

"@Bill,

Yes, actually the first 2 are the ones I was thinking of. They are big and sharp and UNmodified makes it clearer exactly what to do. Hopefully folks who have not ID'd themselves here yet, will be able to make little bright units for rooms in their homes."

Just so you know, all of those photos are of modified boards. It is just that the third photo has even more mods to it. I just wanted to be clear in case some newer folks were looking in. Of course, non of them have Gadgetmall's mods on them if that is what you meant. (I am still working on trying to figure it out)

@ Gadgetmall:

Feel free to mark up the photos any way you like to show your modifications if that suits you. I know you have explained it, but, like Jeanna, I just don't see it yet. Thanks.

BIll

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 11, 2009, 12:44:32 AM

@ all

OK some of you have been waiting for a while for this, but here it is, my BIG TORID JOULE THIEF.

I pulled my BIG Torid out of the cubboard, and wound my JT

I used the thickist wire I could find, put 7 turns on Bifilar.

Transistor is a 2n2222

Base Tr is a 1000 ohm 1/4 watt Brown Black Red

LED is a Hi Bright one.

IT WORKS yippppee.

How big is this thing, take a look at the LM2912 transister I put on the top of the torid
The 2n2222 transister is dwarfed by it

Whats next? Going to put heeps of 2 turn secondaries on this thing and see what happens, ha ha.

Photo0831.jpg = Whole JT on its hugely huge torid.
Photo0832.jpg = Closeup view, showing the turns, big wires, 7 turn primary bifilar.

More to come in a little while

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 11, 2009, 01:04:24 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 10, 2009, 11:49:13 PM
@all

Thank for all the positive feedback!

Think of this like a mk1 with 4 pickup coils , the positive of one coil set feeding the the other in perfect sync.

Mark

MK1,
I went to the butler site today. I think it is all very clear in my mind but then when I see a schematic like this I get twisted around. I get the concept, I believe.

I want to ask if you and I are thinking the ac is coming from the jt. I am pretty sure Butler is not saying that, but maybe they are. It just seems they keep on saying ac source.

My thinking is that the ac is right here in the joule thief and the next core is wound in a single direction and therefore is dc. The battery is feeding them both through a variable resistor, and when the tuning is right the saturation/unsaturation will make and break this just like a transistor, but without the problems inherent in the transistor.

Is this what you are thinking also?

Then the next thing to do is add the secondary and light the light.

All the research on core types and winding proportions and other details are being worked out by the whole group, and they are not yet ready, IMO. When these 2 parts come together we will really have a thing that can go anywhere and light those lights... Then on to cookers etc.

Is this the page you are on?

thank you,

jeanna

EDIT ADD:
Wow Jim, that toroid is really big. Drop it on a mouse!

See what you get from a single turn? then 2 then 3. please. (after that, you can drop it on the mouse.) -j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 11, 2009, 01:21:27 AM

@all
OK I removed the flimsy Red positive wire, soldered a switch to the Torid (+) turn, soldered a heavier Red wire from switch to the battery holder.

Next I unsoldered the 1K ohm resistor, then connected my new tool (Resistor Substitution Wheel) and cliped its leads (black and red clips) to where the resistor was.

Selected the 1k on the resistor wheel

Turned on the switch, and the LED glowed brightly. ;D

Discovery time, this circuit works up to a resistance of 2.2k ohms
It also works down to a low of just 5 OHMs, but I think that is really tooooo much like a short so I took it back up to 1K ohms

The best resistor to use is between 1K ohms and 820 ohms ;)

OHMS RESULT Observed
1 = 0 LED off
5 = LED turns on Tr gets hot
10 = LED on Tr still hot
22 - 56 = LED on Tr warm to cool
up - 1k = LED on Tr cool works OK
2.2K = LED goes very dim Tr still OK
above = LED goes out

See pics

jim

pic 0383.jpg = Resistor Selection Wheel is connected to JT
pic 0386.jpg = 1 K ohm resistor is removed, Red and Black alloigator clips attatched to Tr1 and torrid bifilar junction.
pic 0385.jpg = RSW is set on 5 ohms setting

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 11, 2009, 01:32:28 AM

@jeanna

I am not sure i get your question , but in the plan there are 6 coil on one toroid , 2 for the jt at 180 degrees and i 2 other coil on each side , like the mk1. The pair( one from each side are connected in series (make sure there polarity match) then you rectify it (but a bit differently so you isolate the positive side of the ac wave ) and send it back in the second pair (you can adjust the feedback with a resistor )also connected in series then the output , could be rectified for dc or use as ac.

The mag amp can be used in many ways , this is a variation.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 11, 2009, 01:46:30 AM

Just 4 Jeanna,
the torid mouse trappy ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 11, 2009, 01:52:45 AM

@electricme

Nice drawing ! How is your led connected to the base and collector?

@all

Check those solar panels starting at 3 $ for 3v 25ma, http://www.abra-electronics.com/products/catalog/Flexible-Thin-Film-Solar-Modules-p-5294.html

5$ for .5 volts and 1000ma :o , http://www.abra-electronics.com/products/catalog/Encapsulated-Solar-Cell-Modules-p-4774.html

Now i got your attention http://www.abra-electronics.com/products/catalog/Laminated-Solar-Cells-p-4775.html

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 11, 2009, 01:52:45 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on February 10, 2009, 10:35:31 PM
@ gadget

nice video ... btw i thought your joke was NO VIDEO saying do it your self lol ;)

so well were playing around lol i have a TPU RIDDLE FOR EVERYONE ....

how do you make millions of kicks combine togather as 1 big KICK of current?

answer: !?!?!?!?! ??? oooo yea thats right FIGURE IT OUT !! ;D 8)

ist??

Ahhh . just a Guess here Bra but id say store it in a cap ? then pop it !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on February 11, 2009, 02:19:21 AM

Hi all;

Just thought you might be interested in this picture... it's a "Sunbeam Mighty Bulb CFL", it fits perfectly in the center of the 24 LED's...perfect fit...just a little glue will hold it in place :) now just plug in a solar panel garden light circuit with the battery in it and add a JT or Fuji mod circuit inside the LED case where the four batteries usually go, add a clear dome on top and voila, should be weather proof and self sustaining until the battery totally dies.

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 11, 2009, 02:30:37 AM

@ MK1
I followed a design off U tube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTAqGKt64WM&feature=related thought I would see if it worked, and it did.

LED is connected between (e)mitter and (c)ollector, base goes to centre tap of JT bifiler wires, via 1k ohm resister.

What I'm wanting to do next is to put several 2 turns wires on this torid, and see if it will drive any more LEDS

Thanks Mark

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 11, 2009, 02:49:12 AM

@Electricme

Ok thank one the picture its hard to see, i thought you found something new.

Make sure you make the resistor test with the pickup coil on.

Also i made a test on toroid with a 1 turn rectified in the multimeter , when i made a 4 turns bifilar (it took about 1/8 off the toroid) by moving the 1 turn from one location to the other , and the got 2 volt at the end where the coil are but only .7 volt at opposing side.

Keep the good work.

Ps I am jealous of your toroid

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 11, 2009, 06:25:17 AM

@ all
Big Torid update. ;D ;D ;D SUCCESS SUCCESS SUCCESS ;D ;D ;D

Tonight I wound a seperate secondary coil, on my BIG Torid
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Construction details

bifilar 32 turns.

Lets call the start wires (a) and (b)
Lets call the end wires (c) and (d)

To double the output "energy"
I connected (c) to (a)
(IF IT DOSENT WORK 4 u SWAP (D) TO (A)

The output issues forth from the wires from (b) and (d)

I soldered a 1n4004 diode to the end of (c)
I soldered a 1n4004 diode to the end of (d)

I soldered a Hi Bright LED after the diodes, between + and -
I soldered a Hi Bright LED before the diodes (on the AC or Hi Hz pulsed DC)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The test
I set Resistance Wheel to 2.2K ohms
Turning on the sw1
LED on JT powering torid lights up brightly

LED before the DIODES very dimly lights, LED AFTER DIODES NOT LIT

Turn RW to 1.5K ohms
LED before DIODES lights brighter, LED after Doides light

Turn RW to 1K ohms
LED before Diodes lights brightly, LED after Diodes lights same as previous LED, both appear to be the same

Turn RW to 820 ohms
Both LEDS gain in brightness

Turn RW to 560 ohms
Both LEDs get more brighter

Turn RW to 330 ohms
Both LEDs get even more brighter

I was not game to go to a lower resistance in case I destroyed these LEDs.

I will make a Tiny Weiny Video and post it to show you all what happened.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 11, 2009, 06:46:49 AM

@All
What happened in my above post?

I have connected a Resistance Wheel to the base (b) of the 2n2222 transister.
I am able to get the different levels of brightness out of the LEDS by adjusting the RW to any resistor I want to select.

Tomorrow I will wind on this same torid, another identical coil, then I will add to it the diodes and LEDS and carry out the same test that I did tonight. If this works OK, then I will add another coil, and if it works, I will add on another coil, etc etc.

Eventually, I will see if I can connect all the outputs in PARALLEL and see if I have current.

After that, mabie if I throw in a 4017 IC and solder in a few capacitors, I should be able to discharge them in "rotation".

Hmmm lets see, 1 step at a time ha ha

1 thing before I go, I wound on the torid 2 turns, when I short these 2 wire ends, the JT LED brightens, does anyone know why cause I dont.

Phewwwww I am dissey with success tonight, it has been a fun fun fun day he he

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 11, 2009, 07:25:50 AM

@ Mk1
I made a 2 turn, on this big torid, when I shorted the 2 turn wire together, it brightened the JT LED. Could not measure via DMM any current or voltage, in AC or DC.

Made a 12 turn coil as well, could only just measure some DC, about 1.5 of a volt, but would not light up a LED.

I removed this and wound my last coil on the big torid 32 turns - bifilar, it works so I will stick to this for the time being.
Sorry, havent done any current tests, will do so tomorrow, too tired now 10.20pm

@ jeanna
I had an idea, would it be possible to use a microwave do-nut cake tin or doovar, and mix up some graphite powder (lots of this, a couple of pounds) and araldite glue and let it set in the cake tin to make a huge giagentic torid? or is this wishful thinking?
Mark is jealous of my big torid and wants one badly he he.

ps have a good holiday LJ ;)

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on February 11, 2009, 08:13:28 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 10, 2009, 04:44:31 PM
@koen1
I don't care much about ou , but powering a city on a 1.5v battery that is still unproven but theorize has plausible , unlike ou. Also the fact that this runs from very low voltage and amps
makes it possible to run from (pelletier, solar panel, mini wind turbine , peizo , Hall sensors , even 2 galvanic ground wire,from air ? etc ) anything they can't sell me on pay per use. If that is all that is needed then why ou ? It takes money to make money , i think it take electricity to make electricity .

Ah ok, so you're not out to get OU, you merely strive for free energy, that's it? ;) lol
Well, to be honest I don't really need OU either, as long as I can power my house appliances
from a free source, that's fine. If that means using a simple charge collector (like the solar panel,
earth battery, air static, whatever) to provide input energy for a JT-like circuit that can produce
230V AC that will run my heater, fridge, and pc, then so be it. :)
So I think we're on the same 'wavelength' there. ;)

@Gadgetmall: you said

QuoteANYONE here that ACTUALLY CONTRIBUTED TO A CIRCUIT ,TEST OR REPLICATION Has something on their Mind . Most of it was Spoonfed . Not any more !You gotta Build it Before you know what it can do .http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iINoVWbdBpk I Myself Want something from nothing and got it . Others want Power which is always a Plus . I will Stick with the 1 volt systems after all 1 volt is much easer to get for free from the ground than 3 volts. I luv My LPJT on My earth battery . Perpetual Light ! .. and guess what .. I got circuit so low so low on the input there nothing there to measure once she runs .kick her once and she on . Patent pending soon i hope .. ..

So are you saying you're now going to post only cryptic hints? Are you saying you're going to deny people who ask for it explanations from now on?
You "want something for nothing and got it", but others may not, is that what you're saying?

And what type of "earth battery" do you use? Is it a Stubblefield style coil-wound one, or is it an earth-based "dry cell"?

@electrime: you want to make a toroid from graphite? Why? Isn't really known for its great flux permeability, is it?
But I suppose if you really want to you could make a graphite-based toroid yourself. I would try "waterglass" with lots
of graphite, then mix it well and heat the putty to about 200C which should cause the "waterglass" to solidify. This is
an old method used by some electrical engineers to make a conductive "glue", although in that implementation they
would use something like silver powder instead of graphite of course. But if you don't have waterglass, you could try
with a glue. Some conductive glues consist of acrylic or some other resinous material mixed with silver powder.
So perhaps resinous "glue" would work just as well.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 11, 2009, 09:08:45 AM

@ALL

Hello . This is My final Release of My FUGI JT MOD . Pirate has provided a picture and i doctored it up with the mods . you do not need the HV mods they are there if you want to use them . they will draw excess current in my prototype cutting the time the clf lights an hour more or less also use a 13 to 15 watt spiral cfl for good light . Its not absolute 100 % Blinding Light But its Bright enuff to read by and light a room for 11-12 hours on a good Ni-Mh battery producing 2500mah . it also runs longer on a Duracell . they are 1.55 volts and higher .. It self starts at 1.30 volts anything less need a push of the KICK switch . Mine runs 12.5 hours without the hv mod and stops lighting the cfl with a voltage of 1.12 to 1.17.. I have thought of adding 50 or so 1 to 5 watt LEDS in the output circuit with a switch for back up light when clf fails to fire at lower voltages . It depends on the Temperatures .If yours don't light then the only thing i can think of is your transistor need to be replaced with one of higher gain . All transistors are not created equally i have found .Al last adjust your current draw between 12 and 20 ma for best results enjoy ! If any one needs one and simply can't make it or absolutely want one (and is rich) I can build one for you for 50 dollars plus shipping .a modded cfl bulb is needed . add 20 dollars for them. I need the money and if you need a dependable light source there you have it .I will also build you a Joule thief with 4 leds with a current draw of less than 1 ma for 70 dollars plus shipping ! . Yep i need the money and i am not Cheap :) I was Making 85 dollars an hour on the Job i got hurt on last . Now i have nothing but My wits to survive . I await an SSID Trial soon i hope. It has been two years filed now . ok ENJOY !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 11, 2009, 09:23:05 AM

Quote from: Koen1 on February 11, 2009, 08:13:28 AM
Ah ok, so you're not out to get OU, you merely strive for free energy, that's it? ;) lol
Well, to be honest I don't really need OU either, as long as I can power my house appliances
from a free source, that's fine. If that means using a simple charge collector (like the solar panel,
earth battery, air static, whatever) to provide input energy for a JT-like circuit that can produce
230V AC that will run my heater, fridge, and pc, then so be it. :)
So I think we're on the same 'wavelength' there. ;)

@Gadgetmall: you said So are you saying you're now going to post only cryptic hints? Are you saying you're going to deny people who ask for it explanations from now on?
You "want something for nothing and got it", but others may not, is that what you're saying?

And what type of "earth battery" do you use? Is it a Stubblefield style coil-wound one, or is it an earth-based "dry cell"?

@electrime: you want to make a toroid from graphite? Why? Isn't really known for its great flux permeability, is it?
But I suppose if you really want to you could make a graphite-based toroid yourself. I would try "waterglass" with lots
of graphite, then mix it well and heat the putty to about 200C which should cause the "waterglass" to solidify. This is
an old method used by some electrical engineers to make a conductive "glue", although in that implementation they
would use something like silver powder instead of graphite of course. But if you don't have waterglass, you could try
with a glue. Some conductive glues consist of acrylic or some other resinous material mixed with silver powder.
So perhaps resinous "glue" would work just as well.

Im only going to deny Lazy ass people who do nothing but Complain and wait for someone else to do it for em:). You are going to pay for either By doing it yourself , leaching what you can for free or paying for it , its that simple . Its a Hard fact of Life that you will learn when you hit 50 + . I have in cased circuits probably before you were born.I know what to use thanks .Also there is nothing Cryptic in My instructions and what i choose to do with what i keep "SECRET " Is My Business. . Take a week and reread this thread before you ask all those Questions please .

@ All
Sorry By Bp is up today . and they cut My water off and i had PAID THEM .. ARRRRRHH...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 11, 2009, 09:57:48 AM

Quote from: Goat on February 11, 2009, 02:19:21 AM
Hi all;

Just thought you might be interested in this picture... it's a "Sunbeam Mighty Bulb CFL", it fits perfectly in the center of the 24 LED's...perfect fit...just a little glue will hold it in place :) now just plug in a solar panel garden light circuit with the battery in it and add a JT or Fuji mod circuit inside the LED case where the four batteries usually go, add a clear dome on top and voila, should be weather proof and self sustaining until the battery totally dies.

Regards,
Paul

Hey that is Sweet .Very Good design and Positive Vibes for sure . Now trythe Fugi Mod i posted a pic provided By pirate .

Love it !
Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on February 11, 2009, 10:01:33 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on February 11, 2009, 09:23:05 AM
Im only going to deny Lazy ass people who do nothing but Complain and wait for someone else to do it for em:).

Oh good. There's none of those here anyway.

QuoteYou are going to pay for either By doing it yourself , leaching what you can for free or paying for it , its that simple . Its a Hard fact of Life that you will learn when you hit 50 + .

In this day and age you don't need to have spent over 50 years on this mudball to have figured out nothing comes for free.
Nil ex nihilo, wasn't that how the Romans put it? ;)

QuoteI have in cased circuits probably before you were born.I know what to use thanks.

wow, so why do you need to play the "I'm older than you" card?
And I never told you what to do, did I?
I just asked what exactly you meant there, since it sounded like you were saying something along the lines of
"well it's been fun and I've found what I was looking for so now I'm just gonna leave you guys in the dark"
and what with all the stuff you posted it seemed a little odd for you to just drop out and leave the less
experienced electronics tinkerers to muddle along...

QuoteAlso there is nothing Cryptic in My instructions

No, no, that's not what I meant.
What I meant was in regard to the above, I asked if you were going to start posting only
cryptic hints from now on, instead of the fairly extensive type of messages you posted till now.
Never meant to accuse you of being cryptic already. ;)

Quoteand what i choose to do with what i keep "SECRET " Is My Business.

Yeah I guess... although I wonder why you'd even mention stuff that you want to keep secret anyway.

QuoteTake a week and reread this thread before you ask all those Questions please .

All what questions? Wasn't that many, was it? I was only a bit miffed about your statement there,
didn't really ask you anything besides that and "what type of earth battery do you use".
don't see why I should read 200+ pages just for that...

Well, whatever. I thought we were all here to discuss JT circuit variations and post our
findings with the JT circuits we build... And to share the info.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 11, 2009, 10:08:47 AM

Quote from: electricme on February 11, 2009, 06:25:17 AM
@ all
Big Torid update. ;D ;D ;D SUCCESS SUCCESS SUCCESS ;D ;D ;D

Tonight I wound a seperate secondary coil, on my BIG Torid
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Construction details

bifilar 32 turns.

Lets call the start wires (a) and (b)
Lets call the end wires (c) and (d)

To double the output "energy"
I connected (c) to (a)
(IF IT DOSENT WORK 4 u SWAP (D) TO (A)

The output issues forth from the wires from (b) and (d)

I soldered a 1n4004 diode to the end of (c)
I soldered a 1n4004 diode to the end of (d)

I soldered a Hi Bright LED after the diodes, between + and -
I soldered a Hi Bright LED before the diodes (on the AC or Hi Hz pulsed DC)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The test
I set Resistance Wheel to 2.2K ohms
Turning on the sw1
LED on JT powering torid lights up brightly

LED before the DIODES very dimly lights, LED AFTER DIODES NOT LIT

Turn RW to 1.5K ohms
LED before DIODES lights brighter, LED after Doides light

Turn RW to 1K ohms
LED before Diodes lights brightly, LED after Diodes lights same as previous LED, both appear to be the same

Turn RW to 820 ohms
Both LEDS gain in brightness

Turn RW to 560 ohms
Both LEDs get more brighter

Turn RW to 330 ohms
Both LEDs get even more brighter

I was not game to go to a lower resistance in case I destroyed these LEDs.

I will make a Tiny Weiny Video and post it to show you all what happened.

jim

Very Cool . Most likely you can wind a heap of wire on that baby and light up several hundred leds . or Cfl's

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 11, 2009, 10:28:18 AM

Quote from: Koen1 on February 11, 2009, 10:01:33 AM
Oh good. There's none of those here anyway.In this day and age you don't need to have spent over 50 years on this mudball to have figured out nothing comes for free.
Nil ex nihilo, wasn't that how the Romans put it? ;)wow, so why do you need to play the "I'm older than you" card?
And I never told you what to do, did I?
I just asked what exactly you meant there, since it sounded like you were saying something along the lines of
"well it's been fun and I've found what I was looking for so now I'm just gonna leave you guys in the dark"
and what with all the stuff you posted it seemed a little odd for you to just drop out and leave the less
experienced electronics tinkerers to muddle along... No, no, that's not what I meant.
What I meant was in regard to the above, I asked if you were going to start posting only
cryptic hints from now on, instead of the fairly extensive type of messages you posted till now.
Never meant to accuse you of being cryptic already. ;)Yeah I guess... although I wonder why you'd even mention stuff that you want to keep secret anyway.All what questions? Wasn't that many, was it? I was only a bit miffed about your statement there,
didn't really ask you anything besides that and "what type of earth battery do you use".
don't see why I should read 200+ pages just for that...

Well, whatever. I thought we were all here to discuss JT circuit variations and post our
findings with the JT circuits we build... And to share the info.

Koen1 No offense but you are a very Curious person . Ever heard the phrase "Curiosity killed the cat " I Don't Like Being analyzed and it does really get on My nerves when someone ask a question that has been answered 4 or 5 times already .Just take your time guy and read the whole thread . i have reread it twice and still go back to the very beginning for reference . Once you have done that i am sure you will see where we are at and where we are going and all your questions will be answered . I think i have given the thread of pirate a big boost . No one else on the net had plans for a Low Low Powered Jt or fugi before Us ! . I and select others that have made contributions to the cause and do the back work have given you Light .You may use it ,improve upon it for your benefits . I'm Not greedy and like Ist Somethings are not meant to be given away. even open source . I have seen many new videos pop up now from people looking in on our circuits low powered Jts and Fugis . the word it out . Its exposed for their Benefit and we ask nothing in return . Just to make our world a little better . Peace .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 11, 2009, 10:34:35 AM

Here's just a shot video of the coil with eight layes running a cfl off one 1.2v AA battery.
The light is quite a bit brighter than it was with just four layers.

I allso tried it with two AA batterys and it seems to use less current for more light.

The joule thief uses the same current with the four layer pickup coil as it does with the eight layer coil when its not under load.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niiL1Rhcf6g

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 11, 2009, 10:45:19 AM

im going to repost the video for the last time 8)

why?!?!?!!? cuz i think it is a verry cool effect ;)

ist!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkjN0GTlCRY

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 11, 2009, 11:03:18 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on February 11, 2009, 10:45:19 AM
im going to repost the video for the last time 8)

why?!?!?!!? cuz i think it is a verry cool effect ;)

ist!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkjN0GTlCRY

Very Nice Job IST.

Have you tried it with a modified CFL?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 11, 2009, 11:50:38 AM

i have been lighting modded cfl with a aaa and a cam flash for a while now....

but that vid is special as it is not modded.................................

i just built the gadget tunner board ... for the cam units... to tune this gadget right up i used all i could get round me ... 1k 15 turn pot 20k 15 turn pot 0-50 pf trim cap and 95 - 420 pf trim pot ...

im gonna get this to light the cfl full brightness from a aaa and i hope to have my miliamps draw way down ...

that was the plan for this tester board ....

i will post a pic of it soon

ist!

then i can fianally finish my cam driven light stick

so far in the new light stick board i have a 2n2222a driveing my 3/8" 16 turn bifillar jt toroide i got from the cfl board ;) and 4 super bright blue leds ....and i have a 3904 transistor to turn on the cam unit from the jt/leds from the solar sencer it is working so far ... the transistor in the old board it worked hooked up to the cam unit powereing the cfl so i went with the same in this unit .....

now i need to get the gadget to work ... tuneing time ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 11, 2009, 12:05:04 PM

@ Gadgetmall:

Thanks for posting the instructions on the marked up photo....I think I finally get it now. I guess I lean better from seeing than reading. I will get another unmodded Fuji board and replicate your design from scratch. Thanks again. This is a great improvement and a huge leap forward. The fact that it will run for 12.5 hours at all without burning something on the board up is a great feat in and of itself, not to mention the load of a cfl!!! Great work man.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 11, 2009, 01:10:36 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 11, 2009, 12:05:04 PM
@ Gadgetmall:

Thanks for posting the instructions on the marked up photo....I think I finally get it now. I guess I lean better from seeing than reading. I will get another unmodded Fuji board and replicate your design from scratch. Thanks again. This is a great improvement and a huge leap forward. The fact that it will run for 12.5 hours at all without burning something on the board up is a great feat in and of itself, not to mention the load of a cfl!!! Great work man.

Bill

Hey . If My Leds were not packed away in storage i would hook them up . I think they might draw less Especially running 100 on one wire :) No return so its an open circuit. these are cool . You know i played with camera chargers a very long time ago and i remember when leds first came out .( wow i just noticed im a Sr member now that really hurts :( and it never occurred to me to do anything with it other than charge up a capacitor for a stunner and a pop .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 11, 2009, 02:24:44 PM

@all

I finished reading the posts just now.

The problem is that if you dont read the posts one day then when you come back there is a lot to read.

Congratulations everybody for the achievements!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 11, 2009, 02:53:39 PM

@mk1

I saw a new post of your circuit. My question is about the dots that are on the coil.
I have understood that the dots mean that the wires are on the same end of the coil.
The joule thief uses one wire from one side of the coil and another wire from the other side to make the battery positive connection.
I see on your drawing that the wires that come together as positive are from the same position according to the dots.
Is that the way you built it or it is a mistake on the drawing?

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 11, 2009, 03:33:43 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on February 11, 2009, 02:53:39 PM
@mk1

I saw a new post of your circuit. My question is about the dots that are on the coil.
I have understood that the dots mean that the wires are on the same end of the coil.
The joule thief uses one wire from one side of the coil and another wire from the other side to make the battery positive connection.
I see on your drawing that the wires that come together as positive are from the same position according to the dots.
Is that the way you built it or it is a mistake on the drawing?

Jesus

Hi , see the dots has polarity indicator.

@electricme,

Be careful the its not because they are all connected the same way , that the polarity is respected there is a mirroring effects.

@koen1

I don't think anyone hiding any thing here , but some time to understand something you need to be ready , then it could be has cryptic has can be , people will fallow , it all step by step , some go one by one some run .
Now i guess you will be giving us info on your experiment on your next post.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 11, 2009, 03:58:15 PM

@all

This tread is going to pass the 50 000 hits mark , so i assume that some readers don't share . I don't mind if they educate them self but be careful you will never go beyond these pages and most wont get it or have success replicating it.
We all know it time to stand together, so do it!

You are all needed! And teach what you learned !

That is the only way out.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 11, 2009, 04:07:26 PM

@gadgetmall,
thank you so much for this extra effort to repeat your work. I would never have put the cap in the right place. I knew I was wrong but couldn't get it right. Now, I know I will get it. I must put it off until I return. I am so busy making gloves, finishing socks and such things to keep me warm, so, I am thankful that the information is safely here and I can do it later without dredging it up again.

@jim,
;D HA GIT EM ;D

@jesus, If I am gone for 16 days, will it take me 32 days to catch up? I think so!

I will go back and watch the videos, but I want to make a small report.

I made an attempt to get the slayer newest model. Well, I got 14T,14t bifilar on there for primary and 132 turns on as secondary. I wound all around once and back again then I still had enough for the last 10 turns and I wound them onto the only remaining bare piece of ferrite which was around the place where all the primary wires start and finish.

@MK1 interesting you should mention that.

So then this morning I made some tests and got some "different" results.

Specs first:
Core is from "filter" (has given best results so far)
2N3904 Transistor
47uF cap || to battery leads
800ohm fixed base resistor
100pFcap|| to 20k Variable Resistor set to 20k for now

14+14 turns bifilar primary
132 turns secondary

Plain jt circuit with 1 LED
4.4mA
Plain jt circuit with LED removed
1.6mA

the following tests are all taken from the secondary

1 LED
3.05mA
5.28Rectified Volts

2LED
2.6mA
5.3 Rectified Volts, but second light is barely on???

then, I turned the second light and it worked in the opposite direction.
This is the first time this has occurred. The EE's in the crowd have told me that half of my leds should be in the opposite direction, but I have never seen this even though I have tried many times.

with 2LEDs in opposite directions
3.1mA
1.85 rectified volts.

I am not sure about this rectified volts figure/s. I am going to save up for that hand held oscilloscope at allelectronics. I won't get it til next month. The reason is sometimes the lights change brightness when I have this connected. I remember one day holding the ends of the secondary in my hands and getting a different/higher result. There may be some feeding into the system that is coming from the meter's battery. I just don't like how flaky it sometimes is.

Thank you,

now for those yet unviewed videos!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 11, 2009, 05:03:00 PM

hey guys i just got done my first cfl light fixture..

i made a 6 pac ... and im building strip cfl for lighting ... 3 per strip ...

i will match it with the voltage required to drive them im hopeing to get the 6 pac to light from a aaa battery but we will see even if i have to

use a few solar pannels and rechargeable batteries

at 2 bucks a unit it is not a large cost ... ;) so 6 cfls and 2 solar pannels and chargers per cfl should work out well

you might spend 50 bucks or so to make it .... but hey ....

it will light for free.... 8)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 11, 2009, 07:16:45 PM

@ IST:

I can't wait to see it.

@ All:

All of my parts just came in so now I can complete my Bedini motor and also, try that energy from the air experiment. I have a question about the Bedini for those of you familiar with it. I have read in a few places that I am not supposed to use neos on the motor. They said I should just use the weaker ceramic magnets. Is this really true? (I am loaded with neos of all shapes and sizes) It would seem to make sense that we would want the strongest magnetic field to get the most efficiency from the motor as it would be in a regular motor but, is there something in the Bedini design that works better with a weaker magnetic field from the magnets? I can go to Hobby Lobby and get the ferrite magnets if I have to, I was just hoping to use what I already have and that they might even work better. What do you think? Has anyone used neos on their Bedini? Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 11, 2009, 07:42:17 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 11, 2009, 07:16:45 PM
@ IST:

I can't wait to see it.

@ All:

All of my parts just came in so now I can complete my Bedini motor and also, try that energy from the air experiment. I have a question about the Bedini for those of you familiar with it. I have read in a few places that I am not supposed to use neos on the motor. They said I should just use the weaker ceramic magnets. Is this really true? (I am loaded with neos of all shapes and sizes) It would seem to make sense that we would want the strongest magnetic field to get the most efficiency from the motor as it would be in a regular motor but, is there something in the Bedini design that works better with a weaker magnetic field from the magnets? I can go to Hobby Lobby and get the ferrite magnets if I have to, I was just hoping to use what I already have and that they might even work better. What do you think? Has anyone used neos on their Bedini? Thanks.

Bill

Hey Bill . I use Neos . Thats all i use . It spins like a tornado . the only reason Bedini Dont Like Neos is because the spin is Free and the magnets are Just used to trigger the transistor . However Using Neos Will Have a Magnetic Effect as you could see with My Big Sg that power 120 volt lamp .. and other stuff . So Yes Use Em . you can Always adjust your Distance . Be Sure to have a way to do that . I have one that has Strong Neos and i have a sort of "Reactor core " I can slide the Core material in and out away from the core . Very interesting effect .

take care .
Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 11, 2009, 07:58:03 PM

@ Al:

Thanks for the info!! I was hoping it was something like that. A movable core eh? Great idea. I think I can rig something like that. I did not realize the distance between the rotor and the core was important but, now that you told me, I can see where it might be very good to be able to move it to get the best results. Thanks to your info, I can work on it a bit tonight. I appreciate the answer.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 11, 2009, 08:08:10 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 11, 2009, 07:16:45 PM
@ IST:

I can't wait to see it.

@ All:

All of my parts just came in so now I can complete my Bedini motor and also, try that energy from the air experiment. I have a question about the Bedini for those of you familiar with it. I have read in a few places that I am not supposed to use neos on the motor. They said I should just use the weaker ceramic magnets. Is this really true? (I am loaded with neos of all shapes and sizes) It would seem to make sense that we would want the strongest magnetic field to get the most efficiency from the motor as it would be in a regular motor but, is there something in the Bedini design that works better with a weaker magnetic field from the magnets? I can go to Hobby Lobby and get the ferrite magnets if I have to, I was just hoping to use what I already have and that they might even work better. What do you think? Has anyone used neos on their Bedini? Thanks.

Bill

well neos work to a degree but why are weeker magnets needed ?

well i think you need to match coils to magnets ;) to get decent effects .... no i have not done this but i have a million ideas for it to improve the common bedini

get ceramics or microwave magnets whatever shape you want .....

i got a trick for you to try ;) if i can remember it by the time you get the magnets....

ill touch on this brifly now

basicly take the motor as we know it and sypply it with a intrurupted power supply at 7.5hz so every time the coil is triggered it is fed 7.5 hz square or sine .... whats gonna happin if the coils are tuned ? tuned to what ?? resosnance wire lengeth ..... what!?!?!?!?!?!

lol

nope ...... more to it ;D

bill get week magnets .... so your coils dont need so much masssssssssssss you need MANY TURNS way more than 700 like 2000 turns to start with ... you want to be able to push the magnet flux from the magnet or BEND IT to do this ...

i hope you have a gausses meter ... ;)

and dont for get to make it layered i recomend polorized with bedini push coil ... layered pick up coil i think it can be an ac pic up coil

can get more complacted then this but there ya go ...

ist! :)

HEAR IS YOUR WARNING TO SAVE YOU ALL A TONNE OF MONEY ......

but first a question .... why is neos not the best choise aside the size of coil you need to get good results....???

know how many fets i blew when the neo is in the correct place .... yea they dont like it ..... MAYBE THE KICKS ARE TOO BIG..
maybe only a week feild is required

i have some real nice week rings for my 36 n1 motor ;)

if you want to pulse a resonant freq or close to the coil you better hope your coils can handle it and ... i wont use too biggg a magnet ....

perhaps this is RICHARDS PROBLEM LOL!!

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 11, 2009, 08:58:44 PM

Hey I have an idea!

How about a thread called Bedini with a joule thief? I bet it will have 50 pages before I return. I mean it sounds like a good topic. And a good topic all by itself?

Do you think so?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 11, 2009, 09:27:14 PM

Good idea Jeanna! Jonny Davro already has one. I will post my Bedini stuff over there. ( I was going to start one but I remembered Jonny's topic)

@ IST:

Thank you too for the information.

Bill ***EDIT*** Jeanna: Jonny's topic is called "Joule Thief Bedini Motor."

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 11, 2009, 10:02:07 PM

@ Mk1
Thanks for the tips on the mirroring effects.

@ Jeanna,
What can I say, mice must live in fear of you at your place lol
Thanks for all the nice posts, hope you liked the cartoon too.

@Bill,
I didn't realise you were involved in the Bedini OU device, I havent made one yet, but its on my list of things to do one day.

@Al,
Don't worry, you will win out in the end, and you got real good electric stuff to come yet.

@all,
I had some success with my JT powering my bjg torid, the battery goes flat fairly fast now, but I'm looking for AMPs output, and I can recharge the battery anytime I need to.

Last night I mentioned I had 1 secondary, I rectified the output, and I have 2 LEDs being driven by the JT itself.

This morning I wound another identical secondary, (this makes 2 secondaries), I added identical Diodes and LEDS.

Then half an hour later on I wound a third secondary coil, set it up the same as the previous 2 coils.

All secondaries LEDs light up, I can countol all Parellel outputs via the Adjustable Resistor Wheel.

Next post I will discribe something NEW I discovered ha ha its pritty good this JT.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 11, 2009, 10:13:54 PM

@ Jim:

First, I hope the fires are not getting closer to you.

Yes, I have been following John Bedini's work now for some time. I started a Bedini motor about a year and a half ago but, never finished it for several reasons. Mostly because I was involved in other projects but also because I could not find the components locally and was not sure what to order online anyway. Now I have everything I need...well, except the neon which I also might have lying about. I may have to buy more magnet wire on a larger spool as Radio Shack only sells the required gauges in small spools I which I have 3. I have heard you can't solder the wire to make it longer as it messes up something in the bifilar coil arrangement. So, when I get to the coil part, I may need to find a good online supplier of the two required gauges. (Unless someone tells me you can solder them, then I will just buy a few more smaller spools)

I'll bet your discovery is that, when you add multiple secondaries, the power draw goes up, but not proportionally? Meaning, you can run a bunch of secondaries with leds, say 4, but your power draw only goes up like 1.5 from just the first one. This is a total guess on my part.

Keep up your good work and keep your eye on the fires down there. Be safe.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on February 11, 2009, 10:46:09 PM

hi bill, glad to hear you are going to complete the bedini sg. i thought i might pass this link on to you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkLmRlHKJIY&feature=channel_page
lidmotor shows how to make a sg coil using 2 of the spools from the 3 spool mag wire kit @ radio shack. of course it's geared more towards charging smaller batteries, but a great intro to the bedini sg without having to spend $ on mag wire.

your question on neos was answered already, i thought i might add a bit more. as gadget said, the magnets are there to switch the transistor, so a weak magnet will do the job. the neos, being stronger will want to attract to the core which can cause a sort of 'drag' if your gap between the neo and the core is too close. so, as gadget said, design it so you can adjust that gap.

weak magnets/big coil with smaller gap
strong magnets/smaller coil with bigger gap

with a small coil and small neos from a dvd player, my small SG (four magnets on spindle and platter from old hdd) will charge a 24v battery bank on 20v input and run a 20 watt fluoro no problem. it was literally thrown together from parts laying around.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 11, 2009, 10:49:42 PM

@all, especially those in the electronics and circuit makers

OK I got a fair bit of information, some pics, a circuit I need fixed up so it looks good, and a couple of surprises.
Al sure is sharp, he has picked up I got something here but not quite sure.

I found a inches ruler, my big torid is 4" in diameter, 1 1/4 inches high, with a centrol hole of 1 3/4 inches.

I have wound all my secondaries with the same size wire, (don't know wire size), see pic 0398.jpg

photo 0389.jpg = Reposting my Big Torid showing the Primary, and 1 secondary, consisting of 32 turns bifilar, both LEDs are lit up, see above 0398.jpg. Tiny 2 turn coil produces 1 surprise (later on).

0379.jpg = I have added a second coil next to the 1st coil, it is an identical coil to the first secondary, same components, LEDs lit up.

0400.jpg = I have added a 3rd secondary coil, wound the same as the 1st and 2nd secondaries, now all secondaries are identical, photo shows all LEDs are shining.

SURPRISE 1
OK here is where this gets interresting, if I short out the TINY 2 turn wire ends, (wound between the 3rd secondary coil and the JT primary coil) the LEDS, "only" on the 3rd secondary coil go out, the 1st and 2nd secondaries still remail lit up.

SURPRISE 2
I blew up the last LED on the 1st secondary, it is soldered after the diodes. I replaced this LED and alls well.

SURPRISE 3
I can ROTATE the ENERGY at my WIM inside this torid.
It appears the magnetic field does indeed rotate, but I think it gos like this, (exciting stuff this is wow)

I have been under the belief that the JT sets up the flow of the magnetic field, and it does, but I thought the magnetic field went round and round either clockwise or anticlockwise, depending on the coil wound on the torid.

SURPRISE 4
I think, (but not sure) the magnetic field rotates clockwise, gets to the JT circuit and rotates anticlockwise, then it goes clockwise, then anticlockwise, over and over again and again.

How did I come to this conclusion?
Well it was the tiny 2 turn coil that gave me the clue, it stopped just the 3rd coil LEDs, not the others.

Then I began to adjust the resistor Wheel I have placed between Tr Base and Power supply (1.2v batt).
As I moved the resistor to a lower value, the current also rose (less resistance) and this was able to keep all LEDs on all 3 secondaries lit up brightly.

Rotating the resistor wheel to a higher value resister, lowered the current avaliable to the JT, this had the effect to begin to underpower the torid, the coil LEDs on secondary 3 got dim and turned off, then increasing the resistance further, the 2nd secondary LEDs got dim then went out, then reducing the resistence further, the 1st secondary LEDS went out, the JT LED however stayed on.

I will make a TWV of this and post it for all to see.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 11, 2009, 11:53:48 PM

@ all
Tiny Weny Video below

This shows the LEDs being turned off 1 by 1 as the power to the JT which powers the Torid, is slowly reduced.
The LEDs go out starting from secondary 3, then secondary 2 then secondary 1
Then each LED turns on as the JT is supplying more energy back into the torid.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 12, 2009, 12:22:49 AM

@Bill,
Thanks for your concern about my location to the fires, no worries mate, I'm about 2000klm away from them. :)

Glad to know all your new parts have arrived, whacko, I'm jealous, ha ha now we can expect some new designs here lol :P

@ Jeanna,
A nice brand new cro will be something to crow about ha ha, I bet everything gets tested at full speed, we won't be able to stop you now, new discoveries comeing up soon everyone. :D
Go for it, get em.
PS take your time using this new machine Jeanna, they have safeguards built in, but they carn't think of every thing.
Read that manual, if you carn't understand something, ask, not me, I don't know about these new fangled hand held thingies, whatch a ma callits, or doo dads. ::)

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 12, 2009, 12:26:19 AM

@jim,
How exciting. I have been seeing this too where one but not another will go off and always in the same order. I did not know how to interpret it. So, great, your work has been replicated by me!

Of course, I liked your carrtoon.- and the teeny video. They work well on my computer just show up with no extra work. whatever 3gp is?

Anyway, great stuff.

thank you,

jeanna

EDIT simultaneous post. I won't be getting a strobe until March. and I just hope they still have em.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 12, 2009, 12:39:33 AM

@all
Another Teny Weny Video by electricme

Here is my big torid, I discovered I could turn off just the 3rd secondary output, by a flimsy 2 turn coil, by shorting out the output of this coil.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 12, 2009, 12:45:06 AM

Wilby:

Thanks! I have seen some of his videos but not that one for some reason. This will help a lot. Thanks for the explanation also on the strong magnets/small coil. Makes total sense. As strong as the neos are...too close to the core and it will want to stop at each magnet while turning, like a magnetic detent or something. Thank you.

There is nothing like venturing into new and strange territory and having the help and aid of you folks here. This is really great.

@ Jim:

Nice video. You weren't kidding when you said small. But, it showed everything you were telling us. My videos are not so concise. That really is a huge toroid you have there. That is a very interesting effect you are getting and also interesting that Jeanna was seeing that as well. I wonder what it means?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 12, 2009, 12:54:49 AM

@ Jeanna,
Don't worry if you miss out on the nice new cro, strobe? another will take its place, good things happen to good people.

May I call on your help Jeanna with my TWV, after seeing it on the forum, it looks huge, could you please reduce it so it is not so large, like your (2 wires 4 ends icon). please :)

I realised that people were missing the videos I had made because it is represented by the usual tiny paper clip, which is the same as the photo paper clip.

I thought if I make something and post it every time I post the TWV video, people would see it and realise there was more info about the topic at hand.

Got to go and wind another secondary to this torid, wow, this is fun fun fun.

Thanks Jeanna

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 12, 2009, 12:56:06 AM

indeed jim verry intresting .... 8)

need a small jt there ... ;D powered by the secondary controlling the other 2... then take there output and feed back

what ya think ... great work jim

i am verry glad your not in the line of fire down there be safe ...

ist!

BTW JIM WHEN I SEE YOUR TOROIDE .. I SEE A DEVICE THAT RUNS WITH GAIN

GREAT WORK ....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 12, 2009, 02:28:24 AM

@ all,
Ha ha, you lot who sleep all day long will have a lot to catch up on today, seems like I have taken over this page, well like Ist, I sure have a lot of stuff to show you all.
I have been experimenting with Teny Weni Videos, we can only download 250Kb at each post, (all that Stefen alows) so thats all I can make do of, I have had to reshoot each TWV at least 4 times before I got it right.

I could use Utube but as I cannot save them, whats the point of that, especially as I have slow old dialup so I provide them here for anyone to download and save themselves.

I just been back at my torid, winding on another secondary, now there is FOUR secondaries, all the same size, turns wize, and diodes and LEDs.

I have just 2 remaining spaces left on this torid, so I just might go for broke and add another 2 more secondary coils , or wind on 2 big secondaries with many more turns, and see just what voltage I can get out of this thing.

@ ist, and @Al and @Xee2
with the output, what should I do to get AMPs?
Should I make a series capatance setup, then trigger it to discharge individually into a single huge coil?

I'm thinking of alowing the secondary outputs to charge up a capacitor, then each cap is discharged into the single coil, each secondary being isolated to each other by diodes soldered at the outputs.
Mabie use a MOSFET transister on each output to do this. Use a counting 4017 IC to do this all in a rotary fashion, I know of a electronic kitt in Australia that I could modify to do this.

Use a 555 counting chip to allow control of the rate of discharge, and the time alowed to do it.

I read somewhere yesterday that caps fill up quickly up to a certain percentage, but discharge to a certain percentage.

Use a small cap electrolytic, to do this, as a big cap takes far too lon gto fill up.

or use a small Farad battery, one of Bills ideas.

what say u all.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 12, 2009, 02:33:59 AM

@ all

I noticed I'm a ;D ;D ;D ;D FOUR STAR ;D ;D ;D ;D General Ha ha, what a hoot, a nice reward lol, he he he he.
now im embarrised.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 12, 2009, 02:54:31 AM

@electricme General :o

I can't wait to see that , for the sleeping bit , its 2h30 am here most of the time i don't go to bed before 7am yes am, up by one there is work to do.

@all

The mk1 toroid 2x67 volt is no longer , i will use this toroid on other project , i did some more test in the destruction process , 8 turns at 180 degrees and , Double side 2 thick coils , i actually find some new things on one row of 14 turns it gave me 44 volt fullwave rectified, also when at 67 volt , with a 1k resistor in series with the Meter it dropped to 64 volt , all data is on one coil use. This toroid is by far my best. Its green (i guess it means go). Also not having enough turn on the jt side really make a difference all was good but between 4 turns not even a volt out of the secondary with 5 turn everything is fine. I use a full wave system i believe it prevents negative feedback the effect are quite drastic for the output side leds are not a good indicator there. the output could drop 80 percent the led will still light.

Mark

I cant sleep much if i want to keep up here. ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 12, 2009, 03:01:56 AM

@ all

Discovered a surprise.
After winding on my 3rd secondary, I discovered if I press the button to short out the 2 wire coil, the 3rd secondary stops working, but the 1st and 2nd secondary still have an output.
Weird that. see last TWV video

@ Jeanna,
Thankyou for suggesting I test out the 2 coil against the larger coils, way back about 3 or 4 pages, I was going to remove the 2 coil setup and discard it, now it has brung up further questions to be answered.

Just wound on the 4th secondary, soldered up the usual diode set and LEDs.
Switched on and it is still working.
This is great stuff

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 12, 2009, 04:15:10 AM

Quote from: electricme on February 12, 2009, 02:28:24 AM
@ all,
Ha ha, you lot who sleep all day long will have a lot to catch up on today, seems like I have taken over this page, well like Ist, I sure have a lot of stuff to show you all.
I have been experimenting with Teny Weni Videos, we can only download 250Kb at each post, (all that Stefen alows) so thats all I can make do of, I have had to reshoot each TWV at least 4 times before I got it right.

I could use Utube but as I cannot save them, whats the point of that, especially as I have slow old dialup so I provide them here for anyone to download and save themselves.

I just been back at my torid, winding on another secondary, now there is FOUR secondaries, all the same size, turns wize, and diodes and LEDs.

I have just 2 remaining spaces left on this torid, so I just might go for broke and add another 2 more secondary coils , or wind on 2 big secondaries with many more turns, and see just what voltage I can get out of this thing.

@ ist, and @Al and @Xee2
with the output, what should I do to get AMPs?
Should I make a series capatance setup, then trigger it to discharge individually into a single huge coil?

I'm thinking of alowing the secondary outputs to charge up a capacitor, then each cap is discharged into the single coil, each secondary being isolated to each other by diodes soldered at the outputs.
Mabie use a MOSFET transister on each output to do this. Use a counting 4017 IC to do this all in a rotary fashion, I know of a electronic kitt in Australia that I could modify to do this.

Use a 555 counting chip to allow control of the rate of discharge, and the time alowed to do it.

I read somewhere yesterday that caps fill up quickly up to a certain percentage, but discharge to a certain percentage.

Use a small cap electrolytic, to do this, as a big cap takes far too lon gto fill up.

or use a small Farad battery, one of Bills ideas.

what say u all.

jim

YOU TOTALY ROCK DUDE ....

;D ;D ;D

GREEN DOES MEAN GO !!!

IST!!

jim a question you have 2 diodes on your secondaries if you add another led the other way so you have 2 of them do they both light both ways with both diodes on the secondary?

waite a min....... am i already looking at that in your above picture ...... hummmm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 12, 2009, 04:27:01 AM

@all

Green toroid 4 jt turn 21 turn pick coil one way 75 volts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 12, 2009, 04:40:24 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 12, 2009, 04:27:01 AM
@all

Green toroid 4 jt turn 21 turn pick coil one way 75 volts.

no kidding ..... lol

i have a green unit laying right all ready to go ...

ill whip her up ... ;) 8)

thanks MK1!!

ist!

@MK1

have you wound a bifillar secondary ... ?? with this setup ?? might we get the same effects as jim ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 12, 2009, 05:02:12 AM

@ist

I was testing the toroid, with 22 gauge, on the jt side 6 turns 65 volts ,jt 4 turns 76.3v, That only on way , meaning 21 turns only on one side going one way.

Now i know what i needed , it doesn't need much on the jt side , so more space for pickup coils . It will have 4 coil, 2 bifillar if you will.

Mark

I really need to get more of those green toroid.

This is going to be a new circuit , transistor , and feedback . a run around!

With negative feed back , i can bring down form 75 volts to 14 volts, :o, wait there is a part missing.

Edit if i go back down i get 40 turns and 105 volts.enough to light my neon.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 12, 2009, 09:08:29 AM

@at the rockin IST, lol :)

Ist, your question about the diode arrangement, yes you twigged it, go to top of the class.
I have 1 LED connected across the coil output, now get this, after the LEDs is a set of 1N4004 diodes, Anode Kathode on one leg, Kathode Aanode on other leg, the 2nd LED is connected opersate polarity to the front diode.

I was having alll sorts of problems with LED brightness all over this torid so I removed all LEDs after the 1N4004 diodes.
Then I series connected all secondaries in chain fashion, (series connection).
Then I removed the 2 turn coils I had.

At present, I'm seeing if I can use the output to charge up 2 Nicad 1.5v batteries in series. I will leave then overnite and see what gives in da morning.

Tomorrow morning I will go outside, and get a small "NiCad cell" 1.2volt and see if I can charge this with the JT.
I was reading that the JT is very good of recovering acid batteries, we shall see if this is so, (another JT to make up for this one)..

Now if I use a flip flop, or a multi vibrator, hmmm, I should be able to pulse DC into these cells.

Another thing I must do is to reconnect all secondaries in parallel, this will give me mili or amps.

Ist, my 2n2222 transister is getting warm to hot, depends on how much resistance I choose for the base leg. lol I had better make up a tripple darlington using a 2n2222, BD139 (or BD140) and 2x 2n3055 in parallel, yep lets put a bit of grunt in this thing.

I will post a pritty photo tomorrow and circuit, I'm tired, time for bed-i-byes, retire, a snooze, 40 winks, a sleep. ha ha

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 12, 2009, 10:31:21 AM

@all

Hi!

@electricme

Keep shinning General!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 12, 2009, 10:32:59 AM

Here is a crude drawing of the circuit I used in my last video.

I know it could be better with differant transistors but I use what I have.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 12, 2009, 10:39:46 AM

@slayer007

This is a smaller version of your schematic.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 12, 2009, 11:07:58 AM

@ Nievesoliveras

Thank you for resizing the circuit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 12, 2009, 11:21:43 AM

@ Jesus:

Nice job on the resize. Thanks.

@ General Jim:

Wow man, you are really experimenting up a storm down there! As you know, I am a big fan of the supercaps so I would say give them a try. They appear to charge up a lot quicker than I had first thought, and they will discharge slowly, like a battery when you want them to. I think they are a great tool for us and can be used on many different types of devices. I am going to try to incorporate them into my Bedini set-up once I get it going. Keep up your great work!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 12, 2009, 01:06:25 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVLs5BywOVE&feature=rec-HM-fresh+div

Have a look at the above video. This fellow is using a joule thief circuit to make hho. I think Jeanna would be interested in this.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 12, 2009, 01:23:47 PM

@mk1!! im on it bro 8) 4 turn jt and bifillar pic up coil ...

jim .. wow

how in the heck do i build what you describe ..... ;D i think i have all the parts but the bc.... transistors ... but i will look round see if i cant round up enough parts ..

GRUNT ... ;D I CANT WAITE ... LOL

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on February 12, 2009, 01:31:34 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on January 31, 2009, 02:16:07 PM
Hi as a matter of fact i have heard of antennas pulling energy out of the vacuum of space ! Thats Exactly how to make what they call and earth/air High Voltage Battery . You ground a copper rod in the earth and attach the wire to one end of a Hv cap then run another wire 200 feet up . and attach the other end of the HV cap . You will have a limitless supply of high voltage only limited by you cap Voltage . It will light neons and probably CFs and florescent tubes . i got two of everything from High powered burning lasers to tesla Flyback . down to metal that catches on fire when it gets wet and metal that is solid at room temperature and turns liquid at 108 degrees.Radioactive rocks and yea tons of ham radios and junk i have collected from the past ..Im a Pack Rat . Here is one of my latest Toys . i need a tube for it . one was broke . 6CW5 This baby put out pulses from .01 kc to over 2.5 mc at voltages at adj. voltages up to 40 Volts . Now i wonder what a TPU or a Toroid / Coil will do with that !! :o I'm gonna find out !

It just so happens that I've got three copper pipes in the ground as part of my earth battery setup. I guess I could hook those in parallel, attach one end of the cap to the last pipe, connect wire to the other end of the cap and run it. Would one of my 320v caps from the camera stuff work for this? Oh, so to light something like some LED's, how do I hook them into this?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 12, 2009, 02:37:24 PM

Quote from: electricme on February 12, 2009, 12:54:49 AM

May I call on your help Jeanna with my TWV,

OK here tis

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 12, 2009, 02:42:34 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 12, 2009, 05:02:12 AM

Now i know what i needed , it doesn't need much on the jt side , so more space for pickup coils . It will have 4 coil, 2 bifillar if you will.

Edit if i go back down i get 40 turns and 105 volts.enough to light my neon.

I look forward to seeing you results with this , Mark.

This is the direction I was trying to go and I got flaky and disappointing results. I am glad to see you doing this using your methods and toroids.

thank you very much,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 12, 2009, 02:45:17 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 12, 2009, 01:06:25 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVLs5BywOVE&feature=rec-HM-fresh+div

Have a look at the above video. This fellow is using a joule thief circuit to make hho. I think Jeanna would be interested in this.

Bill

YUP,
and right below it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru8YQ6HUwbU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru8YQ6HUwbU)

So, gadgetmall, we may not need to do a whole thread for this in the spring afterall!

;)
Yeay! everyone is jumping into the pool!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 12, 2009, 02:48:19 PM

@jeanna

The results are only due to the core ,and fine tuning.

thank!

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 12, 2009, 02:49:02 PM

000OOoow weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!

lol

i found somthing a big toroide ... in an audio amp ..... it is green ...

the ring is bout 1.25"

it is already wound ;) ;D

heavey gage wire... intresting how it is hooked up useing fets ..... hummmmm

ill take a pic it is blowen up so i cannot hook it up ....

look at that tagged 99 ;D 8)

rignt on the back i have this old tv tagged 66 watts

no i did not do this ....

lol

wild

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 12, 2009, 02:52:02 PM

Quote from: slayer007 on February 12, 2009, 10:32:59 AM
Here is a crude drawing of the circuit I used in my last video.

I know it could be better with differant transistors but I use what I have.

Hi Slayer007,
They're 3055's aren't they?
Maybe you have the best for the job. HV switching transistors sound good to me.

I would like clarification on the joule thief portion of your circuit, please.
You say 20 turns single layer.
Does this mean this is a single wind of 20 turns, and the oscillating influence is coming strictly from the secondary?

thanks for any clarification you can give here.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 12, 2009, 02:54:12 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 12, 2009, 02:48:19 PM
@jeanna

The results are only due to the core ,and fine tuning.

thank!

Mark

If that is true, then why would you be trying different numbers?
I am watching your results with appreciation.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 12, 2009, 03:23:19 PM

Quote from: jeanna on February 12, 2009, 02:52:02 PM
Hi Slayer007,
They're 3055's aren't they?
Maybe you have the best for the job. HV switching transistors sound good to me.

I would like clarification on the joule thief portion of your circuit, please.
You say 20 turns single layer.
Does this mean this is a single wind of 20 turns, and the oscillating influence is coming strictly from the secondary?

thanks for any clarification you can give here.

No,There is two strands of wire for the JT.
Two strands of wire wound by each other 20 turns
The pickup coil is only one strand.
Eight layers wound back and forth around 480 turns.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 12, 2009, 03:32:16 PM

@jeanna

I needed , to see many things , since i want to increase the number of turns on the pickups , by putting smaller gauge .
First see how many turns i can get in , the voltage range one way and coming back.All thing that make it better design for that special toroid.I have made the first half 22 turns bifilar , so 44 turns total, to gain voltage in the pickup coil it is also good to find the core sweet spot , the right number of turns , more works but reduce the output by 2 to 3 volt per turn , less works reduce the output.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 12, 2009, 05:38:25 PM

@all

the green toroid , is a choke toroid , so High frequency, low loss ,Hi-Flux,/RF carbonyl/iron power core choke coils.

I also found those really interesting and the mention of reactor?lol

http://shinhom.manufacturer.globalsources.com/si/6008811401077/pdtl/Ferrite-core/1008325998/Amorphous-Nanocrystalline-Core.htm

This is a quote

Toroid cores of iron powder are used as RF-inductances, pulse transformers and filter chokes for frequencies up to 200 MHz Iron powder cores have higher saturation flow density that ferrite cores

From http://www.elfaelektroonika.ee/cgi-bin/web_store.cgi?artnr=58-732-03&lng=eng

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 12, 2009, 06:59:38 PM

i made a little picture of my own ... ;D

my green toride crab doing the cap dance ...

ist

i really like his verry cool vortex eyes ... 8)

just a fractal of somthing bigger .... :) or is that smaller?!!?!?!? WHAT .... IT GOES BOTH WAYS ?????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 12, 2009, 07:17:34 PM

@ Ist and @ all
Here is my circuit for my big torid

I have now got 5 secondaries on this Big Torid (BT) (more to be wound on soon)

I wound the secondaries in parallel, because I had saved the wire I used in parallel, as it came off this torid in the first place.
This used to be the 240v feed primary.
I actually saved myself a lot of time because the turns are actually 64 turns to each secondary

I discovered by my cro, the LEDS that were between each output were sucking the juice away and distorting the waveform.
So I removed them all, except for the LED on the JT itself.

JT mod
I had to put a 1k resistor between one of the legs of the LED, as it was getting far toooo bright for my liking.

I have 1 diode to each wire of the outputs, connected AK on one wire, KA to other output wire
I found the diodes which have a .6 of a volt voltage drop, was cutting heeps out of the final output, so I bypassed them all.

All 5 secondaries are now connected in series

The output go to a 1.5v nicad, it seems to be able to charge it up, but for some reason it wont proceed past .99v
Found the cause of this.
All the diodes were loading the circuit and altering the waveforms.

OK, after removing all previous diodes and LEDs
I soldered a "Bridge" diode to the output

With a flatt Nicad connected, the voltage is at .99v and riseing.
Nicad seems to be charging and has reached 1.15v and rising

Open circuit voltage is 26v DC
So there is a bit to play with now.

jim GJ lol

ps all, loved the leg pulling, you are a grand lot, thats for sure.

@ Jeanna
Thank you for the excellent work you did with the icon mod.
TA muchly

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 12, 2009, 07:29:02 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 11, 2009, 10:13:54 PM
@ Jim:

First, I hope the fires are not getting closer to you.

Yes, I have been following John Bedini's work now for some time. I started a Bedini motor about a year and a half ago but, never finished it for several reasons. Mostly because I was involved in other projects but also because I could not find the components locally and was not sure what to order online anyway. Now I have everything I need...well, except the neon which I also might have lying about. I may have to buy more magnet wire on a larger spool as Radio Shack only sells the required gauges in small spools I which I have 3. I have heard you can't solder the wire to make it longer as it messes up something in the bifilar coil arrangement. So, when I get to the coil part, I may need to find a good online supplier of the two required gauges. (Unless someone tells me you can solder them, then I will just buy a few more smaller spools)

I'll bet your discovery is that, when you add multiple secondaries, the power draw goes up, but not proportionally? Meaning, you can run a bunch of secondaries with leds, say 4, but your power draw only goes up like 1.5 from just the first one. This is a total guess on my part.

Keep up your good work and keep your eye on the fires down there. Be safe.

Bill

hi ,this is about soldering wire to make it longer . that is not correct . I soldered wire on my big one that is Ou It Broke during twisting .. . Maybe that i s part of the reason . Just cover the connection up with nail polish .
Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 12, 2009, 07:50:41 PM

@Gadgetmall,
oooo that is very good news. Thank you.

@General Jim,
(I like that. It sounds about right)
I would like to suggest that now that you know the jt circuit is connected correctly, that you remove that primary joule thief light.

Another light from a secondary will give you an output light to be using while you charge your battery-circuit
.
Here is why:
this came from yesterday's post. I repeat part of it here:

Quote
Plain jt circuit with 1 LED
4.4mA
Plain jt circuit with LED removed
1.6mA

That 1.6mA is gonna be used no matter what (sort of) but the light can run for free off (maybe a microamp or 2) the secondary if you take out the light from the "regular" joule thief place.

There was no secondary when I looked at that and it is pure joule thief.

However, you may well have another reason for keeping that particular light in your circuit. I am just making a power saver suggestion.

@slayer - and MK1 - thanks for your explanations.

awesome thread,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 12, 2009, 07:51:41 PM

Quote from: electricme on February 12, 2009, 02:33:59 AM
@ all

I noticed I'm a ;D ;D ;D ;D FOUR STAR ;D ;D ;D ;D General Ha ha, what a hoot, a nice reward lol, he he he he.
now im embarrised.

jim

haha . Hey Jim . I got the same surprise but it made feel my Age :) Go for broke on big Toroid . I think the more winding the less each will put out but it is so large of an area it might run different .. I pick something out of a dumpster today . Never in a Million years . Looks to be a VERY LARGE Magnetic Amplifier . It weighs 30 pounders its a monster .. welcome to the Club
Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 12, 2009, 08:02:42 PM

@gadget

I got one just like it(you can see it on pictures page 126), and i unwound it all, it took like days, At first i used it directly on the output out my transformer jt , i got about 170 volts ac, but not mush power, when i destroyed it i saw why it could not work effectively , but if you take some of the tape and paper of , you should see 2 coil on each side. there is one hidden in the plastic part, but the outs are there.

My only concern about using it it is laminate scilicon steel , i don't think it saturates . Be really go full steam!

I have been using the mag wire from it for the last 2 month .

great find !

Mark

edit I see that all the wire on your seem to get out , but you may have a special wiring inside.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 12, 2009, 08:05:43 PM

Quote from: jeanna on February 12, 2009, 02:45:17 PM
YUP,
and right below it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru8YQ6HUwbU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru8YQ6HUwbU)

So, gadgetmall, we may not need to do a whole thread for this in the spring afterall!

;)
Yeay! everyone is jumping into the pool!

jeanna

Hi jeanna .
Yep that is good news. iIt has been in the high 60's and low 70's all week long . Beautiful over here and i have been outside blowing stuff up with HHo . (Plastic Cup Bubblers) . What a rush! You Be careful camping up there and stay Warm :) I bet your taking a Jt arnt you ? . .
Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 12, 2009, 08:19:42 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 12, 2009, 08:02:42 PM
@gadget

I got one just like it(you can see it on pictures page 126), and i unwound it all, it took like day, At first i used it directly on the output out mt transformer jt , i got about 170 volts av, but not mush power, when i destroyed it i saw why it could not work effectively , but if you take some of the tape and paper of , you should see 2 coil on each side. there is one hidden in the plastic part, but the outs are there.

My only concern about using it it is laminate scilicon steel , i don't think it saturates . Be really go full steam!

I have been using the mag wire from it for the last 2 month .

great find !

Mark

edit I see that all the wire on your seem to get out , but you may have a special wiring inside.

Wow . Dont tell me that big toroid is Steel ? Jeez i know about unwinding Big toriods and i did not know that rign did not com apart . o well . It came Out of a large Pa Amp . Thats how i knew it was a Mag amp . Made for Audio power amplification .I knew i saw that ring somewhere else / DaJaVu . :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 12, 2009, 08:42:37 PM

about my green crab.... lol

if you notice... it is wound if i seperate 1 bilfillar coil and hook oppsitte ends up i HAVE A PRE WOUND JT OF HEAVY GAGE ..... FOR THAT TOROIDE

i will use the red mag wire for this as it is evenly spaced round the ring ... 5 turns.... then i have 3 secondaries ... 1 bifillar ... and 2 singles...

sounds like 12vdc and a 3055 to me .......

ist!

i picked up to new cams .... polorid says dubble flash 1 shot and continous.... hummmmmm i have to take thease apart ...

first continous flash i have found ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 12, 2009, 10:15:05 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on February 12, 2009, 08:42:37 PM
about my green crab.... lol

if you notice... it is wound if i seperate 1 bilfillar coil and hook oppsitte ends up i HAVE A PRE WOUND JT OF HEAVY GAGE ..... FOR THAT TOROIDE

i will use the red mag wire for this as it is evenly spaced round the ring ... 5 turns.... then i have 3 secondaries ... 1 bifillar ... and 2 singles...

sounds like 12vdc and a 3055 to me .......

ist!

i picked up to new cams .... polorid says dubble flash 1 shot and continous.... hummmmmm i have to take thease apart ...

first continous flash i have found ...

Hey IST . In the process of making that Vid you asked for . you want the something from nothing or nothing from something. or nothing is more or more is less ? ;) Too Cryptic i guess . I make ya a Music Video instead .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 12, 2009, 10:22:01 PM

@ Jeanna:

I hope it's not too late to wish you well on your trip. As previously posted, take a JT with you with a superbright, it should last your whole trip easily. It would be a good field test of the unit. Be safe and, good luck reading all the posts when you get back, ha ha.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 12, 2009, 10:41:16 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 12, 2009, 10:22:01 PM
@ Jeanna:

I hope it's not too late to wish you well on your trip. As previously posted, take a JT with you with a superbright, it should last your whole trip easily. It would be a good field test of the unit. Be safe and, good luck reading all the posts when you get back, ha ha.

Bill

Hey . I like The camping too . wish i was going . But i got a moto q phone with internet and email so i probably wouldn't miss anything :. anyone else have a Smartphone .That is what i am use for the internet connection at home also . Bluetooth high speed from a cell phone .hey i could be charging My phone from Jt way better that those you buy . You seen those cylinder cell phone chargers . they are Jts and run off aa bat but only last for 58 minuites . they put out 6 volts .

@electricme . Nice roid you got there and nice circuitry and phone vids are killer ... You got a Scope too! . I got an Ocillagraph 1940's ??.hahaha. it weights about a hundred pounds and has two hundred pounds of dust on it in the barn .. BTW i got you ready for the ship . thanks ....
Al
yea boat anchor , or sinker ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 12, 2009, 10:45:46 PM

Thanks Bill, I will still be able to check in til 3 but likely not after noon, but that is 2 or 3 your time!

I do have a candidate for the 2 weeks. It is the only toy remaining on my kitchen table. There is no switch, just a battery. LEDs are so amazing. I have had a led flashlight hanging from the candle holder of my tent for 2, maybe 3 years, now. I only turn it on when I am in the tent, of course, but the batteries are all originals.
I saw a video by ist, where he loads up a flashlight with a joule thief... everything went right into the battery holder. That is what I want to do with my tent light, but I am not sure I will give it the time this time...
I has been cold nights (30F) and warm sunny days. I have lots of wool. I will be fine.
Thanks everybody...
I may still add a comment tomorrow, otherwise, I will say Hi when I return BEFORE I even start to read it all. ;)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 13, 2009, 12:26:33 AM

@all

Using a Joule Thief to Charge a big 1.2v NiCad wet cell Battery.
I am trying to discover if my JT will be able to charge up a larger battery, other than a AA 1.2v NiCad or NMh 1.2v cell.

I have a number of mid size ALEAD NiCad battery cells, each cell is 9 1/4" High x 3 1/8" wide x 4 1/2" deep
Picked up a couple and brought inside, washed the outside in suds and dried.

1st cell was 0.15volts, at least it wasn't 0v

At 12 MD I began to charge it by using my Big Joule Thief Torid with a fully charged 1.2v MH battery.

Time    JT Cell V    ALEAD Cell V
at 12.ooMD 1.34v    0.15v
at 12.30pm    1.30v    0.54v
at   1.00pm    1.28v    0.61v
at   1.30pm    1.27v    0.64v
at   2.00pm    1.26v    0.66v
at   2.30pm -------    ------
at   3.00pm    1.25v    0.71v
at   3.30pm    1.24v    0.73v
at   4.00pm    1.23v    0.74v
at   4.30pm    1.22v    0.75v
at   5.00pm    1.20v    0.77v
at   5.30pm    1.16v    0.78v
at   6.00pm    1.11v    0.79v
at   6.30pm    0.98v    0.79v
at   7.00pm    0.67v    0.75v Bat voltage dropped, put a fresh AA batt in to continue charging
Ceased recording info.

well this cell seems to be coming up, but it has a very long way to go.

See 0412.jpg = Start Batt charge, AA NiMH is 1.30v
   0413.jpg = Alead 1.2v cell is charging, it has received 0.50volts, not bad as it got this from a AA battery.
   0411.jpg = How big is the Alead 1.2volt battery? Just this big, lol

I should be able to drive every JT I ever make to lite up my house lights, we shall seeeeeeeeeee.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 13, 2009, 12:26:55 AM

@Jeanna

Have a nice vacation!!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 13, 2009, 12:55:26 AM

@ General Jim:

First, if you do not like this nickname, let us know and we will not use it anymore. I like it because it just came about, as all good nicknames do, and I think it fits. but, speak up if you do not like it and I won't use it anymore.

Second, that is good information you have gathered there. I may have missed it but are you also lighting an LED at the same time you are charging? if so, those are not bad numbers.

I was working on my Bedini for a few hours tonight. Got the coil wound, the rotor mounted, and a few other small jobs done. I can't wait to fire this baby up. (I hope it runs)

i have to pass this on. I believe it was on the comment section on youtube for one of lidmotors videos. A guy attempted to replicate his Bedini motor and could not get it to run. Lidmotor worked with him over the course of a few comments and still, no go. Finally, lidmotor said...."You do realize this motor is not self starting don't you?" The guy responded..."Really?" The next comment said the motor was working just fine after he spun it up a bit. Now, I am not making fun of this guy as there is no telling what I might run into that seems obvious to those that already know about it.

Good work General!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 13, 2009, 12:58:03 AM

@all

The new mk1 has 4 pickup coil of 22 turn (2 on each side 22 awg)each giving 72 dc volts.I have not played with anything else for now. Not bad for 88 turns , and 4 turn jt coil at 180.

mark

Now feedback

@electricme

great work!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 13, 2009, 12:58:16 AM

@ Jeanna
Have a good time away, keep safe, throw a line in the creek (if there is one), bet you will be woundering whats been happening on this thread the first day you are away ha ha ha ha.

Wounder if there are any huge black bears where you are going...................na

Have a safe journey to and from, lady J, you will be missed by all of us until your return.

hooroo

General Jim lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 13, 2009, 12:58:34 AM

@jim,
You are re-charging a bunch of niCad batteries from the secondaries of a joule thief using 1 battery to run it?

wow. this is sooo cool.

I guess this is possible, because of the diodes?

waydago, cap'n!!!

@jesus,
thank you.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 13, 2009, 01:03:03 AM

jim you realize that battery is huge.... :o

lol

so even if you stoped your test now ... and mesured the amount used and the amount returned

wich is more or less .... lol

ist!

have a blast..... jeanna ps .. i spelled it right for the first time lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 13, 2009, 01:16:35 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 13, 2009, 12:58:03 AM

The new mk1 has 4 pickup coil of 22 turn (2 on each side 22 awg)each giving 72 dc volts.I have not played with anything else for now. Not bad for 88 turns , and 4 turn jt coil at 180.

So, where you had 7 before you have 4 now, Is that what you mean by 4 turn at 180? And do you have 2 of them (at 180 degrees) the way you had 2 of the 7 turns before? or just 1 primary of 4 turns?

and where you had 52 before you now have 88?

What do you see for amps on this?

72 volts. way cool. This is up quite a bit and you went down in the primary at 180 and up in the secondary (if I am understanding you correctly.)

Thanks MK1, you do great things,
Why don't you repost that link to the butler page? It is really interesting and speaks to much of what we are seeing.

jeanna

@jim, thanks - no bears!

EDIT
thanks ist.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 13, 2009, 01:21:30 AM

@ IST:

Hey, would you mind to post your modification of the led flashlight again here? (I know Jeanna just mentioned it again and I have been thinking about it) I have 2 that I can do the same to and I am sure others would like to see it again instead of hunting through all of the past pages. Thanks. (That is a great project for anyone to do)

@ MK1:

Great going man! do you think this is the max for this set-up? Or, do you think there is more with a few more tweaks? This is awesome!

@ General Jim:

You do know that if you can charge those huge batteries that you will be making history don't you? We are not supposed to be able to do stuff like this. The same goes for Mk1 and Gadgetmall. Don't you guys know the rules man?
If this could be done, the power company would already be doing it. (Yea right!)

Keep it up all you guys.

Bill ***EDIT*** I see we have passed the 50,000 view mark! we should all have a beer together.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 13, 2009, 01:30:28 AM

Quote from: jeanna on February 13, 2009, 01:16:35 AM
So, where you had 7 before you have 4 now, Is that what you mean by 4 turn at 180? And do you have 2 of them (at 180 degrees) the way you had 2 of the 7 turns before? or just 1 primary of 4 turns?

and where you had 52 before you now have 88?

What do you see for amps on this?

72 volts. way cool. This is up quite a bit and you went down in the primary at 180 and up in the secondary (if I am understanding you correctly.)

Thanks MK1, you do great things,
Why don't you repost that link to the butler page? It is really interesting and speaks to much of what we are seeing.

jeanna

@jim, thanks - no bears!

Actually i think the fact that a reduced the jt coil from 7 to 4 is the factor that raised the voltage to over 70 volts,
Now i know that the number of turns on the jt are important in not losing energy , You need to find the point where its just enough turns for the toroid, beyond that you louse power on the pickups coils. so 4 time 22 turn ( each 72 volt dc )
Yes 52 to 88 but from 2 x 67 volts to 4 x72 volt, So far i can say neons are no problem i can light has many has i have 3 on 2 coil , sounds familiar but i don't have 30 of them.

I hope its clearer , next positive feedback , change the transistor to 3055 or dual 2n3904, and voltage doubler. So how dose that sound?

Mark

180 degrees just to say 2 isolated jt coil , for new comers

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 13, 2009, 01:33:48 AM

@ all
Thanks for the kind remarks about my big torid and all the other stuff, TA

@ Gadgetmall
Ohh my, thats a biggie, nice transformer you have there Al, very very nice indeed, and you found it in a dumpster to boot, see all, good things come to those who wait or ask lol. Might be an idea to google it with the brand and model number and see if there is a circuit for it.

You have an Oscillagraph 1940's vintage, fulla dirt? huh, Al, you been mining again, I bet your shed is fulla good stuff (like my shed) lol
Al, if it is what I think it is, hang onto it, don't take it to bits, this thing could be used as a earthquake recorder, barometer, etc etc. I'm going to google it and see.

@Ist,
What are we going to do with yuh mate, I see your turtle torid has had babies, lots of em, look on the table top, all those dark green ceramics, lol. Feeding that lot with juce will keep you going haaaa ha. Lots of sleepless nights changing naps, zaps hee he.

I got more of those 1.2v wet cell nicads, (got bigger ones tooooo, shhhhhhhhhhhh, keeep it quert, whisper ..............
I'm nuts again, tabs worn off.

@ Timmy
Great posts you have there

@ Bill
thanks for all your kind remarks, with my big torid, I only wish you and the others, had one also, it sure would help with results, I'm going to find a way to make them, so at least we can all have experience with this.

@ Jeanna, hope I'm not to late, how much stuff does a holly rolly cake tin hold?
Wanna make a torid cake.

@ all (again)
General Jim, hmmm what say you all, should I or should I not, I'm easy, should I just go for GJ? what ever is easy for everyone.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 13, 2009, 01:51:21 AM

@ GJ:

You mentioned once about us making a large toroid ourselves and this got me thinking. Ferrite is out, too hard to make with high pressures and high temps. But, Mark has shown that the powdered iron works just fine for him, and even better on the high freq. stuff....so.......Intravertabrate (On youtube Bedini stuff) says he makes his own cores by mixing powered iron with glue and it works better with the Bedini than a solid iron core. So, maybe we could get a bag of powered iron and mix it with glue also in the shape, as you mentioned, of a large toroid. Maybe a bunt cake mold or something? Heck, these things are like 10" in diameter! The glue just has to hold it together and the powdered iron could probably (I am no chemist) make up like 90% of the mix.

Something to think about as you brought it up and I saw a similar thing on youtube for the Bedini motor. Just food for thought but remember, you started it.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 13, 2009, 02:26:16 AM

...
or remember that Fisher Price stack of rings? They have a seam and are just plastic molds. Perfect for this. Maybe we need a chemist? Resin rat?

good night.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 13, 2009, 03:07:19 AM

@all

2 coil in series 122.3 volt dc , with my neon on it the voltage drops to 107.4 volts. So i got 2 times 120 volts.

I will have to buy cfl , to try it unmodified.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 13, 2009, 03:12:11 AM

@ MK1:

That is a new record is it not? Great job!!!

@ All:

Anyone ever heard of a Rodin coil? here is a link to the 2nd part of a youtube video. i have never seen a coil like this before and, as it happens, he wound it on a Fisher-price doughnut ring, the same type Jeanna suggested for our toroid casting experiments with the iron powder and glue. Take a look and see what you think?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP5_ShzJcW8

Bil

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 13, 2009, 03:16:20 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 13, 2009, 03:12:11 AM
@ MK1:

That is a new record is it not? Great job!!!

@ All:

Anyone ever heard of a Rodin coil? here is a link to the 2nd part of a youtube video. i have never seen a coil like this before and, as it happens, he wound it on a Fisher-price doughnut ring, the same type Jeanna suggested for our toroid casting experiments with the iron powder and glue. Take a look and see what you think?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP5_ShzJcW8

Bil

I would not say a record, but for 88+8 turn of 22 gauge, then yes or maybe. test battery aaa

Thanks again, but where is yours , one step at a time , you will beat that no problem !

Mark

For rodin coil a donut(the most powerful shape of the universe ) plus tetrahedron coils , that has to be worth something.

Edit . yesterday my toroid gave me 76 volt on 21 turn, today 72v on 22 , i removed a turn on the jt side , and got that 76v back.

That is all dc , i cant really see the ac .

I tried two 2n3904 linked together and got 127 volts. If i put the led at its jt spot the pickup coil drop to 35 volts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on February 13, 2009, 07:04:18 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 13, 2009, 01:21:30 AM
@ General Jim:

You do know that if you can charge those huge batteries that you will be making history don't you? We are not supposed to be able to do stuff like this.

hmm... Really? Jim lists as maximum charge in his bigass battery 0.79V @ 6 am, with the input battery at 1.11V... Though that would at first glance
appear to add up to 1.9V which is clearly higher than the total charge at start, respectively 0.15V + 1.34V = 1.49V and thus would seem to somehow
produce 0.41V from thin air, I can't help but be reminded of the "Young effect" fiasco... Remember, where one charged cap was switched to connect with
an identical but empty cap, and the total voltage of the two caps added up was higher than the starting voltage...yet the actual energy content was lower.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that is necessarily the case here, but I am saying perhaps we should make sure that something like it is not going
on here too.

QuoteIf this could be done, the power company would already be doing it. (Yea right!)

Of course. After all, heavier than air flight is possible, and that was in use in the middle ages already. Err... Or was it? ;) ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 13, 2009, 08:09:20 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 13, 2009, 03:16:20 AM
I would not say a record, but for 88+8 turn of 22 gauge, then yes or maybe. test battery aaa

Thanks again, but where is yours , one step at a time , you will beat that no problem !

Mark

For rodin coil a donut(the most powerful shape of the universe ) plus tetrahedron coils , that has to be worth something.

Edit . yesterday my toroid gave me 76 volt on 21 turn, today 72v on 22 , i removed a turn on the jt side , and got that 76v back.

That is all dc , i cant really see the ac .

I tried two 2n3904 linked together and got 127 volts. If i put the led at its jt spot the pickup coil drop to 35 volts.

WEll that Probably Could be beat With same Windings just a Better gain transistor :) Now your the one who said first it was a contest and it was "on" . remember ? Anyways i googles the Big Mag amp and no information on it at all . even from Billion corp . so I have a Dc source for it and an ac Source fro My Pulse Generator . . I can Light up a 12 volt light with a signal less than 2 volts but reproducing the Frequency is another matter with out a scope . Its Just hit and Miss with a555 . I am thinking a crystal VFO .. I dont think i will Scavange it yet as there was anothe r Massive Power transformer in that Sound amp with probably 10 or 15 pounds of wire .and 15 10 k hi res pots and stuff ..
..

@Jeanna .
Enjoy Nature .!!!! See ya when you return. . Is your Name pronounced G anna or Jean NA .? LUIC

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on February 13, 2009, 08:26:22 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 13, 2009, 01:21:30 AM

Bill ***EDIT*** I see we have passed the 50,000 view mark! we should all have a beer together.

Agreed! Cheers!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on February 13, 2009, 08:49:19 AM

@ All

Just ran across this little article where a small wind turbine is used to charge up a capacitor and power an electric toy car at
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/08/wind_turbine_to_1.php .

Since we can charge up caps to hundreds of volts in a small amount of time using the JT or Fuji circuits it seems to me that if a circuit like the one used in this toy car to convert the potential in the capacitor to drive a small DC motor could be used to slowly bleed off the cap back to the input side, couldn't it? If so then the small amount of power needed to drive the JT or Fuji circuit could load many more caps if they were in parallel to the first cap, then we'd get even more energy to play with.

Anyone know of a circuit to slowly bleed off a cap at a certain voltage, say 1.5 to 12 VDC?

Anyways, just a thought.

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 13, 2009, 09:15:17 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 13, 2009, 03:07:19 AM
@all

2 coil in series 122.3 volt dc , with my neon on it the voltage drops to 107.4 volts. So i got 2 times 120 volts.

I will have to buy cfl , to try it unmodified.

There is a mathematical thing called equivalency or something like that, that stated that one fraction is equivalent to another with different numbers.

It is used for many things. Lets use it to find the equivlent number of turns to get 120v.

If 4 turns bifilar with 22 turns secondary gives 72v. Then the equation to solve for 120v
would be:
22/72 = ?/120
Multiply 120 with 22 and it gives 2640
Then divide 2640 with 72 and it gives 36.67
Rounding to 37 turns

22/72v = 37/120v

So in order to get 120 volts each, you need to make the secondaries of 37 turns according to this mathematical equation.

I could be wrong though.

@general Jim

This paint composition has some of the steps you took to get success.

Jesus

Quote from: Goat on February 13, 2009, 08:49:19 AM
@ All

Just ran across this little article where a small wind turbine is used to charge up a capacitor and power an electric toy car at
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/08/wind_turbine_to_1.php .

Since we can charge up caps to hundreds of volts in a small amount of time using the JT or Fuji circuits it seems to me that if a circuit like the one used in this toy car to convert the potential in the capacitor to drive a small DC motor could be used to slowly bleed off the cap back to the input side, couldn't it? If so then the small amount of power needed to drive the JT or Fuji circuit could load many more caps if they were in parallel to the first cap, then we'd get even more energy to play with.

Anyone know of a circuit to slowly bleed off a cap at a certain voltage, say 1.5 to 12 VDC?

Anyways, just a thought.

Regards,
Paul

I like that. It is a possible feedback to the source.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 13, 2009, 09:47:08 AM

Quote from: Goat on February 13, 2009, 08:49:19 AM
@ All

Just ran across this little article where a small wind turbine is used to charge up a capacitor and power an electric toy car at
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/08/wind_turbine_to_1.php .

Since we can charge up caps to hundreds of volts in a small amount of time using the JT or Fuji circuits it seems to me that if a circuit like the one used in this toy car to convert the potential in the capacitor to drive a small DC motor could be used to slowly bleed off the cap back to the input side, couldn't it? If so then the small amount of power needed to drive the JT or Fuji circuit could load many more caps if they were in parallel to the first cap, then we'd get even more energy to play with.

Anyone know of a circuit to slowly bleed off a cap at a certain voltage, say 1.5 to 12 VDC?

Anyways, just a thought.

Regards,
Paul

Yea thats a thought . only think comes to mind would be a voltage regulator and change the energy to mechanical say with one of those tiny Pager Motors fitted with a N S magnet then coil it to produce the back feed rectified to the source . :) they run off the JT . i tried it . Also there are even more efficient motors that make the tiny pager motor look like a giant . Have you seen the tiny motors on those little helicopters you fly in the house . extremely powerful and very tiny . perfect

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 13, 2009, 10:30:36 AM

i built my super tiny jt with my crab eyes .. lol

they are the smallest toroides i have ever seen .. they mesure bout 3/16 of an " outside mesurement .... i have not ran it yet but i will

ill post a pic ...

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 13, 2009, 10:49:51 AM

@all
My Big Torid seems to be working its little heart out charging up the big 1.2v Nicad battery, I noticed it was having a really hard time of it after a while, about a hour ago I grabbed a couple of heavy duty leads, and clamped Red at Pos on the big Batt, cliped red to torid.
Cliped big clamp to big batt, clipped other end to tiny AA batt neg terminal.

Well, ohhhh my, surprise surprise, the AAbatt was reading 1.10 volts, and it began to climb up to 1.25volts, QUICKLY.
The big batt began to climb up QUICKLY.

Now I don't know whats going on here, I'm tooooooooooo tired to even think about this right now, in the morning I will see whats going on here, tidy up the wires, 1 at a time, then do a TWV on this.

@ Koen1,
JT charging up batt, dont know sir koen1, dont even know if my eyes are playing tricks on me lol.

@ Jesus,
Nice work on my pics, on the one which has a reference to the BD140 transister, could you remove just (BD140) its a pnp device, not NPN. ta

@ Jeanna, where can we find a "resin rat" lol, now where can I put my hands on some iron filings, mabe a machine shop in town!

@ Mk1,
Congrats on getting all that juice out of your JT, excellent work.

@ Bill,
I found a pdf on the rodin coil, how to make it using a electric drill, nice work this, gota find a 4" crystal or make my own.

HooRoo all

GJ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 13, 2009, 11:41:22 AM

i think it is time to ramp this up a wee bit ....

as my investor now tells me i never showed any proof ..... lol

is it my fault he cannot grasp it .....

no!!

so be it .... what a waste of time ......

give them 20 videos .... and they say you have nothing lol!!!!!!

i say they suck .... lol

shall we prove it !?!?!?!?!?!?!

ist!

i just so happin to have 1 of thease laying around yep a real old one ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 13, 2009, 12:18:59 PM

***DELETED***

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 13, 2009, 12:30:47 PM

Quote from: electricme on February 13, 2009, 10:49:51 AM
@all
My Big Torid seems to be working its little heart out charging up the big 1.2v Nicad battery, I noticed it was having a really hard time of it after a while, about a hour ago I grabbed a couple of heavy duty leads, and clamped Red at Pos on the big Batt, cliped red to torid.
Cliped big clamp to big batt, clipped other end to tiny AA batt neg terminal.

Well, ohhhh my, surprise surprise, the AAbatt was reading 1.10 volts, and it began to climb up to 1.25volts, QUICKLY.
The big batt began to climb up QUICKLY.

Now I don't know whats going on here, I'm tooooooooooo tired to even think about this right now, in the morning I will see whats going on here, tidy up the wires, 1 at a time, then do a TWV on this.

@ Koen1,
JT charging up batt, dont know sir koen1, dont even know if my eyes are playing tricks on me lol.

@ Jesus,
Nice work on my pics, on the one which has a reference to the BD140 transister, could you remove just (BD140) its a pnp device, not NPN. ta

@ Jeanna, where can we find a "resin rat" lol, now where can I put my hands on some iron filings, mabe a machine shop in town!

@ Mk1,
Congrats on getting all that juice out of your JT, excellent work.

@ Bill,
I found a pdf on the rodin coil, how to make it using a electric drill, nice work this, gota find a 4" crystal or make my own.

HooRoo all

GJ

The change has been made.

You can get ferrite from a sandbox. Wrap a big neo or other powerful magnet with a plastic bag, so the magnet does not get dirty with iron ferrite fillings, and drag and bury the magnet on the sand box with the plastic on and you will collect pure iron ferrite. Keep playing on the sandbox with the magnet and scrapping the ferrite from the plastic till you have the amount you need.
This is done with the coils for a wind mill. After the ferrite is collected they mix it with glue and pour it onto the coil center as a ferrite core.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 13, 2009, 12:32:23 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on February 13, 2009, 12:18:59 PM
i think ive found a way to back feed using the Jeanna Method . More test but it is rising in voltage in the last hour and the holding reservoir is 3 volts . I have not drawn up a Schematic yet but i can tell you it involves somthing i call the rainbow effect :).

I can help you with the schematic.

@pirate

There is a post on this link that has the rodin coil as a joule thief. I did not post it here because when I posted the rodin toroid link nobody paid attention to it, so I decided to post it on the rodin topic.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6728.msg155934#msg155934

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on February 13, 2009, 12:36:40 PM

A battery has alot of internal resistance in it. I was wondering if the jt power would be boosted if there is run in parallel to the battery a capacitor. I think the capacitor could supply alot of faster energy flux to drive the jt.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 13, 2009, 12:43:27 PM

Quote from: sparks on February 13, 2009, 12:36:40 PM
A battery has alot of internal resistance in it. I was wondering if the jt power would be boosted if there is run in parallel to the battery a capacitor. I think the capacitor could supply alot of faster energy flux to drive the jt.

Exactly that was what I did with my coil cable from discarded phone charger toroid configuration.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 13, 2009, 02:12:42 PM

a pic of an old toy i have ... ;D

i will at some point play with this i may rewind it ;)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 13, 2009, 03:20:00 PM

@ MK1 GADGET JIM BILL AND ALL

i have this nice flyback transformer i took apart .... FOR THE CORE ....

i just happen to have some small spools that SLIDE RIGHT ON ;D

i was wondering what you alll think .... i will wind her up .... i was gonna put 4 spools .... secondaries...... long fine wire ....... 2000 turns or so .... layered .... then wind 2 single windings for the jt

it splits in 2 ... in the middle

i will take a pic ... im open to ideas i will wind it up ... the center core is round at 90 deg the ends are square ...

i have a few of thesae cores ...... LOL...

now is the time to use them ....

ist!

here is a pic

you mean i can put some week magnets in this tooo lol ....

btw those coils displayed are store bought STEEL WIRE LAMINATED ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 13, 2009, 03:36:35 PM

Hey Ist
Now that was a Monster . what about a hundered pound Xformer :)

Hey your the Coil guy winder up ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 13, 2009, 04:03:29 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on February 13, 2009, 08:09:20 AM
WEll that Probably Could be beat With same Windings just a Better gain transistor :) Now your the one who said first it was a contest and it was "on" . remember ? Anyways i googles the Big Mag amp and no information on it at all . even from Billion corp . so I have a Dc source for it and an ac Source fro My Pulse Generator . . I can Light up a 12 volt light with a signal less than 2 volts but reproducing the Frequency is another matter with out a scope . Its Just hit and Miss with a555 . I am thinking a crystal VFO .. I dont think i will Scavange it yet as there was anothe r Massive Power transformer in that Sound amp with probably 10 or 15 pounds of wire .and 15 10 k hi res pots and stuff ..
..

@Jeanna .
Enjoy Nature .!!!! See ya when you return. . Is your Name pronounced G anna or Jean NA .? LUIC

Gadget relax , i just said game on , we are all in this together , I some one other then my has success i am happy just as i would if it where me, Don't lets money cloud your judgment or goals .
there is a great mag amp book , on this site i think slapper posted it .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 13, 2009, 04:10:09 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 13, 2009, 04:03:29 PM

Gadget relax , i just said game on , we are all in this together , I some one other then my has success i am happy just as i would if it where me, Don't lets money cloud your judgment or goals .
there is a great mag amp book , on this site i think slapper posted it .

Hey i was just Creating Pun Man . Im Not serious .. You got to get to know me know .I joke around a bit .. Im your Friend .and its cool . cool . If it wasn't i wouldn't be here trying to help out the cause . Beers on Me .....( Then he goes to the bathroom and you never see him again) ::) As far as Calm goes that aint possible even with 4 Xanax a day .Seriously Most of the time I am Wide open.....have you ever raised a Baby Girl by your self.. Well Istill have a little Fight left in me From the Divorce three years ago and won both the divorce and My Daughter with no Lawyer so Forgive me for My Utterances .. there is no Calm . And I mean no Offense to anyone . I'm a pacifist By nature but a fighter at heart .
I'll read it I love this stuff ..

Al.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 13, 2009, 04:12:50 PM

i think the fly back core will make a perfect test platform .. as it only takes seconds to make diffrent configurations ... ;D :o

think bout the name ..... lol fly back hummmmmm.....

HOW ABOUT FLYBACK FEEDBACK ;) LOL

i have a few cores so i will wind diffrent gages for the secondary

i want high voltage ... to light many cfl's from 1 aa battery ..... how im gonna do that ?

got to be many turns .... if you get more than 1000v then we have some fun ... imagine 1000v x4 .... looks like a verry efficient cap charger of high voltage .... hummm

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 13, 2009, 04:20:28 PM

@ SPARKS ....

you know alot about releaseing hv real fast .... dont you ... :)

what do you mean step it down ..... ;D

how do you mean .... i beleave TESLA HAD MANY WAYS ...... LOL!!! :)

ist

PERHAPS IT DEPENDS IF YOU WANT INTERACTION WITH THE EARTHS MAGIC FEILD OR NOT ;)

ist!

just being me.... i can be noone else ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 13, 2009, 04:20:43 PM

@ist

Feedback , are really hard to control think Jimi Hendrix on acid .Not any feedback will do. it has to be controlled and timed.

@Gadget

I know you are a good man, don't get influenced , stay that way, If money was the answer there would not be a problem in the first place.

Have you found the book magnetic amplifiers.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 13, 2009, 04:26:52 PM

Deleted***

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 13, 2009, 04:30:30 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 13, 2009, 04:20:43 PM
@ist

Feedback , are really hard to control think Jimi Hendrix on acid .Not any feedback will do. it has to be controlled and timed.

@Gadget

I know you are a good man, don't get influenced , stay that way, If money was the answer there would not be a problem in the first place.

Have you found the book magnetic amplifiers.

mk1

watch

pulse core 1 time ...... fill cap on out put .... ....ok drain cap to source ..... take battery AWAY......... :o 8)

IST!

you still have 3 out puts....... hummmmmm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 13, 2009, 04:34:45 PM

@Mk1 are you talking about these
Magnetic Amplifiers U.S. Navy 1951:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item204
You will need DjVu Viewer to open the document inside the zip file.

Magnetic Amplifiers Principles and Applications1960:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item205

The document that Thaelin has been referring to is a very good reference.
The Radio Handbook - Fifteenth Addition
(http://www.PHONECOtech.com/OverU/Hanbook-Exerpt.gif)

Thank you Thaelin for bringing it to our attention.

EDIT **** AHHH so my thinking was right as far as using a Crystal to hold that frequency . I did mention that i can tune a toroid with the Pulse Generator .. I just needed a way to reproduce that frequency on a circuit :)thanks ..

Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 13, 2009, 04:37:05 PM

@ist

If a young can pulse a bedini and keep the charge, I don't see why we could not plus a coil on a toroid , 2 coils running in a 8 design supplied by caps, but for this the transistor may be a isue.

Those cap would only be needed for self pulsing and the pickup coils for power.

Mark

Keep the good work!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 13, 2009, 04:45:05 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on February 13, 2009, 04:34:45 PM
@Mk1 are you talking about these
Magnetic Amplifiers U.S. Navy 1951:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item204
You will need DjVu Viewer to open the document inside the zip file.

Magnetic Amplifiers Principles and Applications1960:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item205

The document that Thaelin has been referring to is a very good reference.
The Radio Handbook - Fifteenth Addition
(http://www.PHONECOtech.com/OverU/Hanbook-Exerpt.gif)

Thank you Thaelin for bringing it to our attention.

Al

Magnetic Amplifiers Principles and Applications1960

Is the one , keep in mind they don't show free energy out of it, but they explain it backward, but reading between the lines and hading to that jt knowledge.

On my last project i got dc giving me ac , 4 coil of ac perfectly timed, now i send the positive part of the wave for one coil into the other , some adjustment with a pot . ?

Btw , i tried again this morning and got 140 volts dc instead on 120 last night.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 13, 2009, 04:52:36 PM

@mk1

can you post a paint dwg or somthing .... i will un wind the crab ... it is a green toride i will build exactly what you have ...

ist...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 13, 2009, 05:27:34 PM

@ist

My toroid is about 1 inch, not the 1.25 one.

I will make a drawing for you, i will need to go to my windows settings and come back, but really its easy.

First make two 4 turns coil on the toroid , with bell wire(22awg) one on each side of the toroid . 4 turn on the inside of the toroid
so on the outside you only have 3 full turn.

So one coil on each side of the toroid. So you get 2 large space for pick up coils .

Then take some mag wire 22 awg about 60 inches , this will give you 2 coil(bifilar), so ply it at 30 inches.(at the end you cut the link)
Make 2 of those.

Then take ply end for the start of the coil go 12 turn of more if you can up to the next jt coil and then start the other side.

Only when both side are on that you can go back down , try to get them in the spaces left by the other wire, that way they will be all tight and nice . On my toroid i managed 44 turns , nice and tight.

Mark

That is for now more to come.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 13, 2009, 06:14:40 PM

There you go.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 13, 2009, 06:49:28 PM

nice dwg

thank you for your time to do this .. i have also 1 green 1 "

i will now build it ..

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 13, 2009, 06:54:30 PM

@mk1

Thank you for the diagram!
The only question I have is the direction of winding of each individual coil.
Can you add an arrow pointing the direction it most be winded?

Thank you.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 13, 2009, 08:04:19 PM

@jesus

This circuit is tuned for my toroid, meaning i have found it sweet spot just enough turns on the jt side 4 each, 3 and 5 lowers the voltage, when i perform the test i always re adjust the base resistor and check with the best resistor value for the jt coils that way i don't get confused by the bat voltage or different coil resistance, i tune it to its max , then get readings.

It gives me 4 times 76 volts dc or 2 times 140 volts dc. improvement can be easily done since i still use the 2n3904 and original circuit.

A different toroid will need test and adjustment to perform has well.

Mark

I bigger toroid can be used, test the jt coil first to get optimum results , then put as many turn on the pickup coil as you can.

60 inch is for a 1 inch toroid. And 22 mag wire , otherwise it won't fit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 13, 2009, 09:32:38 PM

here is a pic of mk2 green toroide

my first crack at it ... i did it wrong.... the windings are correct but i left toooo much wire at the start of the coil as when i came back down i only made 7 turns not 10 for a total of 19

so i will REWIND IT ... BE SURE TO KEEP IT TIDY AND RIGHT ON OR 60 " WILL NOT WORK OUT IN TURNS ... 8)

HERE IS THE PIC

IM GONNA DO STEP BY STEP PICS after i fit it in properly ... 8)

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 13, 2009, 09:36:43 PM

@ist

Start both sides before coming back down, that way you will have more room, also when coming back down try the fit the wires between each other i will draw it .

Keep it up!

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 13, 2009, 09:57:52 PM

@all

Yellow is the way up and pink the way down see how they fit!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 13, 2009, 10:25:42 PM

ahhhhhh thank you mk1

i did not intangle them like that i did but 2 at a time ...

i see you have up down up down ...

yes i will rewind the coil

both at the same time and i will wind the jt last as this one i wound it first ...

its all about learning .... and im all about that .... :)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 13, 2009, 10:29:41 PM

@ist

Put the jt coils on fist as a barrier , at 180 and tight them up good.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 13, 2009, 10:47:02 PM

Thank you @mk1
Thank you @ist

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: weri812 on February 14, 2009, 12:12:03 AM

hello to all

love this group lots to learn made my first jt from scratch.
willing to learn more.

thanks to all and keep up the good work.
will keep working all so.

God Bless

wer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 14, 2009, 12:41:58 AM

weir my friend ... great work !!

im glad you have come to join us here soon the rest will find there way as well 8)

nice job!!

ist!

ok im on the ring now ... i will take pictures as i compleate the steps ...

peace to all !!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 14, 2009, 12:49:48 AM

@weri812

Welcome , we need all the help , we can get , if you have any question please , ask them. You will most likely get more then your waiting for , This little gadget has more to give!

Nice work on that Jt.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 14, 2009, 01:12:06 AM

@all
Hi guys, I'm doing ok with my big torid setup, I left it on overnight, checked it this morning and it was discharging.

OK put a fresh 1.2v battery in this thing, it began to work again.
After a while the 1.2 NiCad goes down, hmmmm do some more thinking, why is it working but going flattttttt.

When a fresh 1.2 batt is put in, it shows 1.30volts on a meter I have placed directly accross Pos and Neg.

I have a meter placed directly at the big NiCad wet cell, this shows >1.20volts it has been >1.30 volts.

But if the 1.2 AA batt discharges, so the output of the torid goes lower, as is expected, but the 1.2v NiCad wet cell, dosent seem to be holding a charge.

Then the penny fell, the 1.2volt nicad wet cell had not been used for years, so I tore apart a old torch, removed the bulb and used this accross the wet cell nicad as a resistance discharger, the bulb gave out a very week light then inside of a minute it extinguished.

Then I put another fresh AA 1.2v nicad batt back in, this time I connected the resistance bulb back in accross the big 1.2v nicad wet cell battery, turned the JT on and away it went.

The whole setup has been running for about an hour, the big 1.2v wet cell nicad seems to be charging up from the AA 1.2volt nicad.
I hooked up the small torch bulb and it glowed, but it seemed to gradually get brighter, but it is operating at half its voltage as it is a 3.6v bulb.
I hooked up another bulb in parallel, it glowed weekly, as it is a 6v globe.

To really test this big Torid, I will see if it can charge up 2 X 1.2volt wet cell NiCads in series = 2.4volts
If it can do this, then I'm on the right track, havent got to OU, if I can keep the wet cells NiCads charged up and return excess power to the original 1.2volt AA NiCad batt then I will be getting closer.

I need a break from this thing at the moment, I will post some photos soon (in a few hours) and its circuit in several bits.

General Jim

Photo 0420.jpg = scope image waveform, probes connected to DC at bridge rectifier, before it goes to big 1.2v wet cell NiCad battery.
0421.jpg = close up of scope waveform.

0417.jpg = Batt AA voltage on left multimeter
Batt voltage after bridge rectifier, before it enters 1n4004 diode at Positave Post
0425.jpg = Meter accross main big cell, showing 1.25volts and riseing

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 14, 2009, 01:23:35 AM

@ Weri812,
Welcome to the Joule Thief forum, just throwing the welcome mat out to you. ;D
Nice to have you aboard, were all a crasy lot here, ::) love to push normal thinking to its limits and beyond. lol

Nice JT, nice tight neat turns, I see it's been running almost 24hrs, is a good result, well done ;) Wer

I'm off to the dump to find any good stuff I kan use on this JT ha ha

General Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 14, 2009, 01:55:37 AM

mk2 wound

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 14, 2009, 02:04:27 AM

@Ist

Looks real nice!

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 14, 2009, 02:07:29 AM

i will finish it tomorrow

thanks mk1!!

and i will post a close up of the loops that are un cut yet and the ends of all coils ...

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 14, 2009, 02:40:40 AM

:o :o :o :o :o :o
Work out this tune lol

Every-ones a-sleep in Ar-merica
Every-ones a-sleep in Ah-merica
Everyones- a-sleeppp in America
All are a-sleepppp inn A--h-meri---ca

sleep on all

General Jim is watching over you

;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 14, 2009, 02:51:47 AM

@electricme

I am still on standby, watching over the sleepers! Its only 2:43.

@ist

I have to do this,maybe my screen but i don't see much on your pictures, when making photo good lighting is really important
to keep the detail in focus. Keep that in mind , you do good , don't hide it!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 14, 2009, 03:23:32 AM

@Mk1
Hello Mark, nice to see you are watching over the sleepers also, ohhh myy wont we get a ribbing when that lot wake up lol.

I was just in the process of posting a post when I got booted by Stefan updating the forum, lost it too, never mind, I understand he needs to do house cleaning to keep his OU site in good working order.

I just arrived back from the dump, got a BIG Brigs and Stratton engine, I tink it needs to be freed up, a job 4 ron. lol

Mark, I noticed your remarks to IST, I also have trouble getting my photos right, light is my problem also, I have tried desk lamps (all types), I think it might be my mob camera auto iris shutting down too soon, might have to learn to use my other 5meg Pixle camera and see if it makes a difference.

Mark, how do I turn hi freq dc pulses ultra low current into stright DC low current?

I think I am getting close to OU with my torid setup.
I think one of the things we need to do is the placement of diodes everywhere to direct voltage and current arround this circuit.

General Jim

@ IST, lookie what I got here. ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 14, 2009, 03:48:19 AM

@electricme

Well general , you can make a smoothing circuit , from 2 cap and a resistor. But i got a feeling this is about charging , fill a cap and discharge , like the bedini .

And try one diode charge, or even no diode .

Mark

Sun is good on picture , fluorescent do well.

BTW i am so jealous about those 2 greenys , a twin mk2 ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 14, 2009, 04:08:29 AM

@ those who are cleaver,
I got a nice one here for someone.
I have 3 coils mounted on magnetic shafts.

I have not seen these before.

The coil end of each shaft has a chissel point.
The other end is squared off.

The coils are wound singerly.

General Jim

I might have to get off the net, big storm approaching me, warnings have said to look out for big hail.
http://mirror.bom.gov.au/products/IDR502.loop.shtml

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 14, 2009, 04:18:59 AM

@ Mk1
You are right, go with your gut, feeling, most times one will be right.

Yes all this time I have thought the way to go with getting heeps of power out of the JT is to fill up a cap, rapidly, then discharge it rapidly, or use a big coil, charge it rapidly, discharge it rapidly, the trick is to know how.

I,m just charging my big 1.2v wet cell and learning at the same time.
I better change the AA batt shortly.
Thanks Mark

General Jim

ps storm is getting real close now, skies very black

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 14, 2009, 07:27:08 AM

@ all
I decided to add another wet cell 1.2v Nicad into my JT circuit, here are my reasons.
This torid is capable of putting out over 36.0volts open circuit, by controlling the voltage I drive the base of the transistor with.
I believe the output voltage will go higher, but not wanting to destroy the LED in series with the 1k resister, or the 2n2222 transister I pegged it back, at the moment the TR has 1.560 ohms + what ever ohms a HiBright has between A and K feeding into its base.

Each wet cell = 1.2volts x 2 = 2.4volts

Present O/C voltage to Both wet cells is 2.60volts
Volts in hand therefore is 0.20volts

I take the output from the torid, rectify this and put it into the series Pos and Neg batt terminals.

As the torrid is supplied by a single 1.2v AA MH battery, I take the Pos from the 1st wet cell battery (1.20volts) and plonk a lead back to the torid pos where the Pos lead from the AA batt feeds into the torid.
Later I must solder in a higher current diode here, then I will insert a LM317 adjustable TR here so I can feed a more precise BACK FEED voltage to the torid.

Photo 0430.jpg = is the waveform displayed after I connect both 1.20volt wet cell NiCad batteries into this JT charging arrangement.

TWV is tooo quick and some places is too dim to read voltages, so I will redoo it tomorrow in daylight.

General Jim

OK time to go to the flicks.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 14, 2009, 07:45:08 AM

Welcome new members!!

Hi! Old members!

I am working on a toroid made with a discarded phone charger cable yet. I am trying to make it to give as much power as it can with an old idea from lady @jeanna.

I have not been able to build @mk1's toroid yet. I will do it as soon as I finish the tests I am doing now.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 14, 2009, 08:43:43 AM

@Jesus,
Hi there friend, I havent pulled apart one of those mobile chargers yet, so they have a torid in them, thats interresting.

Hope you have success with it.

Im looking forward to hearing how you go with it.

I gotta hit the sack
Hooroo

General Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 14, 2009, 10:23:06 AM

HELLO ALL

we will be listing toroide coils for sale on ISTEAM.CA

VIA PAY PAY .... ALL PROCDIES WILL GO TO THE INVENTORS/ DISCOVERS ...

THANK YOU ... EACH AND EVERY ONE OF US THAT HAVE DONE THIS ARE VERRY POOR ..

AND ALL HAVE CHOOSEN TO SHARE PUBLIC ... HERE ON OVERUNITY.COM...

BEFOR ANY MONEY WAS TO BE MADE FORM ANY OF THIS ...

WE WILL BE OFFERING DO IT YOUR SELF KITS AS WELL AS PRE ASSEMBLED UNITS ...

I HOPE TO HAVE THE !STORE UP AND RUNNING SOON ....

ALL ARE WELCOME ....

WILLIAM

mk2 close up pic....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 14, 2009, 02:07:59 PM

well back to work ... 8)

@mk1

we need a driver board built to drive this lil guy ...

lets go small for now ... you made mention a few times your useing 3904 transistors and paired

i will build this board to drive that coil .... what value resistor did you use 1k as the original jt?

jim, posted a schem ... i would bet this is the one to use ...

well ill round up the parts and whip 1 up to test out your coil ...

ist!

might be a good idea to post your drawing tho mk1 just to be sure all are on the same page ... for those that replicate it

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 14, 2009, 04:22:41 PM

@ist

For the resistor i usually try a 1k trim pot, to adjust and get the best value, I see that yours is a bit different it has 5 jt turns , it looks like 4 but its 5. Mine look like 3 but is 4 . It around 115 ohm.

i was sure the Jesus would be putting everything together on one post like he usually dose.

Keep the good work!

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 14, 2009, 05:31:53 PM

@ist

I was trying a 2 transistor like the one Jesus found, it work but can't get more then 35 volts a coil , so if i can't do better then that then, its worthless, it worked right away but i still need to find the right value for resistor. So fer the regular jt circuit, is so much better an simple.

I am checking different transistor , but we need a easy to find one. I will try 2n3055. i will be back.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 14, 2009, 05:59:12 PM

Quote from: electricme on February 14, 2009, 08:43:43 AM
@Jesus,
Hi there friend, I havent pulled apart one of those mobile chargers yet, so they have a torid in them, thats interresting.

Hope you have success with it.

Im looking forward to hearing how you go with it.

I gotta hit the sack
Hooroo

General Jim

Maybe I did not explain it properly. What I used was the coiled cable from the phone charger.
I wounded it over the toroid I had and made a multivibrator. The output was dissapointing, just 0.12v rectfied.

@innovation

I will consider your toroid sale offer.

Quote from: Mk1 on February 14, 2009, 05:31:53 PM
@ist

I was trying a 2 transistor like the one Jesus found, it work but can't get more then 35 volts a coil , so if i can't do better then that then, its worthless, it worked right away but i still need to find the right value for resistor. So fer the regular jt circuit, is so much better an simple.

I am checking different transistor , but we need a easy to find one. I will try 2n3055. i will be back.

Mark

I was telling @general Jim that I built the multivibrator also and the output rectified was 0.12v . If I tested without rectification, the meter wont show anything, 0, nada.
If @ist gets the whole thing going maybe it is better to get money to buy one already made from him, then use it to learn the principles involved and as a light source as well.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 14, 2009, 06:12:37 PM

@nievesoliveras

i have built the 12volt to 230ac , for telia, and not really impress, i can't tune it well, and takes twice the the parts.

Remember if you don't put a rectifier on it , your meter it will show nothing, have you connected a led on it for fun?

Mark

I don't think your phone wire helps.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 14, 2009, 06:24:47 PM

@all

Up to this moment we have this:

Any suggestions for the circuit to use?

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 14, 2009, 06:28:02 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 14, 2009, 06:12:37 PM
@nievesoliveras

i have built the 12volt to 230ac , for telia, and not really impress, i can't tune it well, and takes twice the the parts.

Remember if you don't put a rectifier on it , your meter it will show nothing, have you connected a led on it for fun?

Mark

I don't think your phone wire helps.

I connected a red led that its the easiest one to light and it did not light, then when I rectified it and measured it, it gave 0.12v dc output only.
I will try to use the primary as secondary and the secondary as primary and test again.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 14, 2009, 06:39:37 PM

@all

I used this circuit with the toroid instead of a transformer.
The caps were added now.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 14, 2009, 06:58:28 PM

@all

I got 93 volt dc per coil , with a 2n3055 and a 256 ohm resistor. aaa battery and 50 volts per coil from a button cell lr44
The ac feedback is not needed to get those voltage.
Thank Jesus ! I will try!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 14, 2009, 07:55:13 PM

@all

With a double a battery i got 100 volt dc , per coil , so 400 volts total , so i resume 2n3055 , 256 ohm, and regular jt circuit no led on it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 14, 2009, 09:28:52 PM

i managed to get the coil to run as a normal jt ... lites the led on jt side

when i put 4 leds on the secondaries 1 each ... they all light but jt led goes out ....

i will add diodes now and 4 more leds see if they light

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 14, 2009, 10:17:33 PM

@ist

Let, the jt fly , remove the jt led it brings down the secondary voltage down quite a bit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 14, 2009, 10:24:43 PM

@ Ist @ Jesus @ Mk1

All of you have done well, I like the neetly wound coil, noted the loops for tap points on your torid Ist, nice.
Jesus nice work with the circuits, I am toying around in my head about using a + 0 - battery setup to drive a special torid, havent given this much thought yet, using PNP and NPN transisters (BD139 and a BD140). Just a thought mind you, and use the output to drive power transisters with a direct hookup to the batteries themselves.

Yesterday I found a 12v solonoid which I think I can use as a coil make and break, harness some BEMF. I think I need to make the coil much bigger than it is to get as much energy from the aeather.

General Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 14, 2009, 10:37:27 PM

@ Bill,

(towers of manhatten) lol
Here is a setup I would love to get stuck into, but have put aside for the moment (the big one with 4 terminal posts on top at least).

Look way down between the two big batteries, 1.2volt NiCad cells, there is a AA 1.2volt NiMH batt I use to charge up the others, it is dwarfed big time, ha ha.

Getting back to my current setup, using a AA 1.2volt cell to charge 2 X 1.2v Nicad cells.
The AA bat seems to be lasting much longer now, I went to bed and it was 1.25volts, woke this morning and it was 1.10volts, so thats really good, but I will need to tune this to get it to run without recharging from the wall supply.

It is a bit of a ballencing act, too much one way, and it not enough to keep the process going, Too much the other way and it will not have enough to recharge the 2 batts and have enough to keep the AA bat recharged. A bit of a tightrope to walk.

General Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 14, 2009, 11:02:27 PM

mk1 im only getting 30 v intresting tho ... i used 4 diodes on 1 secondary i can mesure diffrent voltages many ways ......... hummmm

intresting

they range from .8v 6 v 3 and 30 v i find this weird ... any how im playing with it i will solder it to a board eventually ...
it is on 1 of my bread boards

jim

your gonna love the unit i have it is from an old car......... guess what it has 3 coils ;) all in 1 unit ... some one told me it was a regulator ..

might dig it up and take a pic for you

guys im not sure this ring thing is my cup of tea...

i wound a feroite transformer core as a split jt ... i may walk that path... dont know yet .... i was thinking of putting a layered secondary in the middle leg ....

what ya think

also i wound up that flyback core ... i think it turned out well only used 2 coils for now have not ran it yet ....

now if i can find those CELL FONE LITHIEUM BATTERIES ... AND CAN CHARGE EM QUICK might have a good little power source ..

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 14, 2009, 11:12:47 PM

@ist

Try a pot instead of the 1 k resistor, and find the right spot. Also if you keep the led on the jt 30 volt is about all you will get.

Do it right , you are so close.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 14, 2009, 11:45:59 PM

i have a pot on it lol

and that is without the led..... at the best spot...

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 15, 2009, 12:42:49 AM

@ist

I have to say i am a bit confused about those results , but 4 X 30 v dc is not that bad. (my toroid must really be a good one)
It was green but not used has a choke like the one on Jim's picture.

Have you tried the positive feedback?

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 15, 2009, 06:49:34 AM

@all
I have run into a problem.
Has anyone got a simple circuit that can operate from say .6 volt to 3 volt, so I can put 1.5 volt back into my 1.2v NiCad

The JT has been designed for 1.5volt batteries, to recover the last energy that is left in it.
It has not been designed for 1.2volt batteries (as I am using)

So as I am trying to recharge a 1.2v wet cell, I need a tiny bit more than 1.2v to do this.
LM317 wont go that low before it begins to operate and needs a couple of volts overhead to do this correctly.

Any ideas?

General Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 15, 2009, 07:29:53 AM

a few more jts i made ...

have not ran them yet

i built another lastnight it is made of a feroite bobbin with a hole in the center it has a winding round it horz .... i put a 6 turn jt on it

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 15, 2009, 08:35:13 AM

Thank you @pirate
Thank you @electricme
Thank you @mk1
Thank you @ist
Thank you @gadgetmall

Quote from: electricme on February 15, 2009, 06:49:34 AM
@all
I have run into a problem.
Has anyone got a simple circuit that can operate from say .6 volt to 3 volt, so I can put 1.5 volt back into my 1.2v NiCad

The JT has been designed for 1.5volt batteries, to recover the last energy that is left in it.
It has not been designed for 1.2volt batteries (as I am using)

So as I am trying to recharge a 1.2v wet cell, I need a tiny bit more than 1.2v to do this.
LM317 wont go that low before it begins to operate and needs a couple of volts overhead to do this correctly.

Any ideas?

General Jim

My toroid circuit works with less than a volt and recharge the batteries. With the diodes added on the way they are, the charge battery does not lose the charge and the source battery last longer. No OU though.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on February 15, 2009, 08:51:06 AM

Quote from: electricme on February 15, 2009, 06:49:34 AM
@all
I have run into a problem.
Has anyone got a simple circuit that can operate from say .6 volt to 3 volt, so I can put 1.5 volt back into my 1.2v NiCad

The JT has been designed for 1.5volt batteries, to recover the last energy that is left in it.
It has not been designed for 1.2volt batteries (as I am using)

So as I am trying to recharge a 1.2v wet cell, I need a tiny bit more than 1.2v to do this.
LM317 wont go that low before it begins to operate and needs a couple of volts overhead to do this correctly.

Any ideas?

General Jim

try a voltage regulator like a UPC2933 (mine drops out at about .7v) or LT1084CP (datasheet says drop out at 1v), which are similar to an LM317, but of the low dropout type.
i use the UPC2933 in my mains to 1.5v converter, see this post for the circuit. http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg145788#msg145788
hope that helps.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 15, 2009, 08:53:14 AM

ok guys on my new bobbin jt i will put another :P

lol

as i did not see good result on the secondary pic up coil so i will make it a second jt ....

what will be ?? will the outter accelerate the inner jt???????

i will have a horz and a vert jt in 1 unit .... with the pick up coil ....

i will add this picture here aswell ..

jesus no ou eh !! lol

oh yes little tricks ... there so many ... need feed back .... so i was wondering ...

ok we put in 1.5v and we can get out diffrent voltages ... so let us do this .. thake the out put and send to a cap .. put a sw on the cap to fire a second jt .. on the same ring .. or it could just be a primary coil ... and you could have more than 1 hence ... 2 secondaries 1 jt 1 additinal primaris ... and a output coil ...

i was thinking litz style wire ...

ist

the problem is i have 1 million ideas and can not keep up

yet i make another i used the little inductor in the cfl boards ... it has a few thousand winds really fine wire on a feroite bar..... so i wound a bifillar jt over it 5 turns 22 gage...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 15, 2009, 09:49:07 AM

@All
Hi . Captain Jim gave me a clue as to why some of you are not getting your CLF'S lit with the Fugi . I am In the US . WE have Spiral CFL"S that operate on 110 volts ac .. It appears they are made Different in other countries and operate on 220 Vac They are Built Like a Skinny U like our(USA) outdoor bulbs. . That wont work with a gadget Modded Fugi.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pardon on February 15, 2009, 10:33:28 AM

great work going on here.

I have a question for any one that has an answer. when tuning a JT i check the amp output from the emitter and adjust the base resistor for lowest output. ok no problem doing that. but should i use a new batt with 1.5 or 1.2 volts or use a batt that is almost dead (.65 volt) to get the lowest output. or will it make a difference.

I am trying to get a 5 turn MK2 no secondary's working and tunned. also i am using a 2n2222. because i can't get a 2n3904 to turn on any led. so i must be doing something wrong with that one

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 15, 2009, 10:49:23 AM

@All . Well My Circuits have been Validated on the thread Fusionchips bedini feedback to source and its the FIRST FREE ENERGY DEVICE FULLY REPLICATIBLE AND RELEASED TO THE PUBLIC OPEN SOURCE> Yea i got a big head . I am Proud for finally Having a Credible Reputation and not some cooke ::) .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 15, 2009, 11:30:45 AM

i just recieved this 1 hour ago or so

wow

Kymatica youtube it ..... makes me think ....

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: flathunter on February 15, 2009, 02:26:05 PM

Quote from: Pardon on February 15, 2009, 10:33:28 AM
great work going on here.

I have a question for any one that has an answer. when tuning a JT i check the amp output from the emitter and adjust the base resistor for lowest output. ok no problem doing that. but should i use a new batt with 1.5 or 1.2 volts or use a batt that is almost dead (.65 volt) to get the lowest output. or will it make a difference.

I am trying to get a 5 turn MK2 no secondary's working and tunned. also i am using a 2n2222. because i can't get a 2n3904 to turn on any led. so i must be doing something wrong with that one

Have you tried checking the transistor emmitter, collector connections? If they are the wrong way round, maybe thats why your 2n3904 aint working. Just a problem I ran into at first - someone else mentioned they'd had the same problem, so i turned my transistor round, and it immediately worked on a typical JT. I also have the 2n3904, toroid from inside a monitor, 7 bifilar turns (no secondary), , and i can put at least 40 LEDs on it, and they last about 24 hours. I use an AAA old battery from my mp3. I have a shelf with loads of old ones that i just hadnt thrown in the bin, and then I saw this thread and thought, waste not want not!!!!

Now I'm totally hooked ;D Thanks everyone for keeping it real! Will be getting my disposable camera to try some new ideas soon. If anything compoletely amazing happens, you'll all be the first to know!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 15, 2009, 02:33:28 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on February 15, 2009, 08:53:14 AM
...

jesus no ou eh !! lol

oh yes little tricks ... there so many ... need feed back .... so i was wondering ...

ok we put in 1.5v and we can get out diffrent voltages ... so let us do this .. thake the out put and send to a cap .. put a sw on the cap to fire a second jt .. on the same ring .. or it could just be a primary coil ... and you could have more than 1 hence ... 2 secondaries 1 jt 1 additinal primaris ... and a output coil ...

i was thinking litz style wire ...

ist

the problem is i have 1 million ideas and can not keep up

yet i make another i used the little inductor in the cfl boards ... it has a few thousand winds really fine wire on a feroite bar..... so i wound a bifillar jt over it 5 turns 22 gage...

Maybe it is something easy to do, but I do not understand it.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 15, 2009, 03:09:07 PM

anyone ever take apart an old vcr someone told me there was a supercap some times in them round 2f

any how i took 1 apart no supercap but i found just an awsome motor coil in there ;)

imagine 12 coils on 1 ring pushing outward ........ sheesh

pull the old marco trick :)

trow a collector over it

lol

it is as apears to be 3 phase

ist

i did find a small super cap in a vcr!!!!! lol it reads nec 5.5v 0.047f

so it is true they are there but they are small i have not found 2 f but it is a start ... im sure it will find a use ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on February 15, 2009, 06:04:02 PM

Holy Crap guys! I go in for knee replacement surgery and when I get back I have a TON of pages to catch up on.
Wat to go. It sure doesn't look like this thread is going to die soon :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 15, 2009, 06:33:49 PM

@ All:

Just got back from work and I thought I would post some pics. I made this contraption last night. It is simply a piece of clear plastic tubing wound into a coil shape, ala CFL, and filled with water. It is powered by a JT toroid circuit driving 2 leds inserted into the ends of the tubing. Since I post all of my victories here, I thought I would post something that did not work out as well as I had hopped.

I can switch to the 265,000 mcd leds and maybe trim down the length of the tubing. I think this will help a lot. Anyway, I am always thinking but I never claimed that all of my ideas are good, ha ha.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 15, 2009, 06:43:50 PM

HOLY SH!T BILL..... 8) :o

ding ding ding ..... lol and the bells ringgggg

have you tryied a stright tube... led both ends?

looks the the NEW JT WATER STICK LIGHTING EFFECT

HOW BOUT SOME POWERED CRYSTAL IN IT ... 8)

NOW WE CAN GROW FOOD FROM MILIAMPS ...

the jt powered crystal water stick lighting .....

i love it !!!

ist!

will it work .... i know it will ... 8)

well distelled water as it will stay clean we need to test this on a solar pannel see what the returns are .. also what if we got flexi solar pannels and wraped the tube .... intresting bill

im on this

i have to try it ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 15, 2009, 06:57:28 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 15, 2009, 06:33:49 PM
@ All:

Just got back from work and I thought I would post some pics. I made this contraption last night. It is simply a piece of clear plastic tubing wound into a coil shape, ala CFL, and filled with water. It is powered by a JT toroid circuit driving 2 leds inserted into the ends of the tubing. Since I post all of my victories here, I thought I would post something that did not work out as well as I had hopped.

I can switch to the 265,000 mcd leds and maybe trim down the length of the tubing. I think this will help a lot. Anyway, I am always thinking but I never claimed that all of my ideas are good, ha ha.

Bill

Hey Bill Cool ides . USE WHITE plastic STRAWS they look like Skinny FLS Also try somthing besides water maybe milk color ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 15, 2009, 06:59:51 PM

@ IST:

Thanks! I know I can make it brighter with the changes I mentioned. Shorter tube, smaller diameter, brighter leds....etc. Just a little bit of bleach in the water will keep it from going bad. But yes, we could add crystals or crushed glass into the tube to really defract the light for some neat effects. Yes, it works with a straight tube and it about as bright as a light stick. (the chemical glow stick) I just wanted to come up with something that that might replace cfls....at least at my house. Thanks again.

Gadgetmall:

PM me when you get a chance. I think I would like to purchase one of your boards. (modified Fuji) Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 15, 2009, 07:20:06 PM

there is much more to the crystals in this set up then shattering the light

tip

i hear blue leds activate the crystals and the crystals release full spectrum

ist

also for some reason blue is only required this was more of a grow food thing the crystals ..

so i got right into a few vcrs today lol

i now have a whole collection of motor rings ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D might even have a few wrongly built homopolar generators in there too lol

i will add a pic of my finds today ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on February 15, 2009, 08:40:20 PM

Hi All

Great to see you all making progress..it's all good :)

I photographed one of my Fuji camera boards this morning trying to include the PCB traces and just got to editing it tonight (see photo).

This is the Fuji mod by gadget that was posted earlier in this thread but I couldn't make out parts of it so I redid it with a different title, let me know of any changes to include and I will modify it and re post it.

I'm off to get some parts tomorrow :)

EDIT: Was the "103 Cap" on the original supposed to be 103 PF or 103 MF (pico or micro)?

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 15, 2009, 09:30:53 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 15, 2009, 06:59:51 PM
@ IST:

Thanks! I know I can make it brighter with the changes I mentioned. Shorter tube, smaller diameter, brighter leds....etc. Just a little bit of bleach in the water will keep it from going bad. But yes, we could add crystals or crushed glass into the tube to really defract the light for some neat effects. Yes, it works with a straight tube and it about as bright as a light stick. (the chemical glow stick) I just wanted to come up with something that that might replace cfls....at least at my house. Thanks again.

Gadgetmall:

PM me when you get a chance. I think I would like to purchase one of your boards. (modified Fuji) Thanks.

Bill

are you in the US ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 15, 2009, 09:40:28 PM

i have a bunch of thease plastic cores laying round they are from paper spools for till tape ..... and they work awsome !!!

im building a lantern style solar unit ...

i used 2 led 1 in each end .. 10mm

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pardon on February 15, 2009, 10:17:27 PM

I think i have the answers i was looking for. thanks. i was using a 2n2222 trans. and that was my problem. The voltages between the Battery, the Base, the Emitter were always changing as the voltage went down. the voltages were never the same at each location. now that i have a good 2n3904 working, the voltages are the same at each location accept the battery has a higher voltage. but the other locations are all the same voltage.

I had to add turns to the coil with the 2n2222 to get it to light. but with the 3904 i can remove them and now i am back to 5 turns on the coil. also i am now running it at .60 volts. and with the 2222 it quit running at .90 volts

Now i can go back to full voltage and tune it.

Thanks to all for all the great work going on

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 15, 2009, 10:44:03 PM

Quote from: Goat on February 15, 2009, 08:40:20 PM
Hi All

Great to see you all making progress..it's all good :)

I photographed one of my Fuji camera boards this morning trying to include the PCB traces and just got to editing it tonight (see photo).

This is the Fuji mod by gadget that was posted earlier in this thread but I couldn't make out parts of it so I redid it with a different title, let me know of any changes to include and I will modify it and re post it.

I'm off to get some parts tomorrow :)

EDIT: Was the "103 Cap" on the original supposed to be 103 PF or 103 MF (pico or micro)?

Regards,
Paul

HEY Paul . this is the best photo i have seen so far .Great Work ! You do not need HV mod to light CFL Nor 103 cap / how ever if you want to run some leds,neons on one wire with the clf you can add the 103 cap and take the tiny post on top of the small transformer and hook one lead up only and just have the other lead float or attach to the big transformer metal case . it will light up .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 15, 2009, 10:58:10 PM

Gadgetmall:

Yes, I am in Kentucky, USA. Not too far from where Nathan Stubblefield's farm used to be. (earth batteries.)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on February 15, 2009, 11:35:24 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on February 15, 2009, 10:44:03 PM
HEY Paul . this is the best photo i have seen so far .Great Work ! You do not need HV mod to light CFL Nor 103 cap / how ever if you want to run some leds,neons on one wire with the clf you can add the 103 cap and take the tiny post on top of the small transformer and hook one lead up only and just have the other lead float or attach to the big transformer metal case . it will light up .

Thanks for the feedback gadgetmall, you have given us all a lot of useful information so far and I appreciate that.

Wether it's the JT or Fuji in the end, I think that BEMF will be proven eventually to run a circuit with enough energy to recharge the battery driving the circuit, and lighting CFL's and/or LED's :)

Edit: @gadgetmall, was that a 103 PF or 103 MF cap in the cct just to clear things up.

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 15, 2009, 11:38:57 PM

@all

I made the positive feedback on the mk2 , and raised the 120 dc volt to 195 volts dc and shows 67 volts ac, i charge a cap with it and it was going in a 1.2 volt implements , its a 470uf 200 volts . not that big but it goes over 50v in seconds.

@anyone new even if hiding

Welcome!

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 15, 2009, 11:53:42 PM

got an idea imagine that lol

;D

what if......... we droped the input voltage on the cam unit and powered the leds......

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on February 15, 2009, 11:56:06 PM

@ MK 1

"195 volts dc and shows 67 volts ac"...Nice :)

I respect the work that you and all other involved individuals have done on this project so far, but please take a look back on the thread for the clues that gadgetmall has left us, why is it that he can excite the circuits he's working on past the limits of the original circuit made by Fuji for example? There seems to be a pattern to his placement of components such as capacitors (and other components if necessary) to drive the whole circuit into overdrive and get a maximum output voltage for less amperage than the original circuits present on the web.

I believe gadgetmall is closing in on what Tesla was doing with fast switching between coils an capacitors to reach a resonant frequency high enough to drive the originating circuit and then some!

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 16, 2009, 12:02:17 AM

@goat

You are right about the gadget, i will work at it but it has to be tune to the toroid and the resonance circuit , i hope doing both .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 16, 2009, 12:05:35 AM

Quote from: Goat on February 15, 2009, 11:35:24 PM
Thanks for the feedback gadgetmall, you have given us all a lot of useful information so far and I appreciate that.

Wether it's the JT or Fuji in the end, I think that BEMF will be proven eventually to run a circuit with enough energy to recharge the battery driving the circuit, and lighting CFL's and/or LED's :)

Edit: @gadgetmall, was that a 103 PF or 103 MF cap in the cct just to clear things up.

Regards,
Paul

Paul It just has 103 On it . According to Miss Jeanna the Chart Indicated 10 is the number times the 3rd number which is 1000 . No i don't understand that Measurement . because Pf is Pico Farads and is 0.000000001F = 1pF) range or one Millionth Millionth of a farad where as Micro farads are in the 0.000001F = 1uF range and is one Millionth of a farad. so 100 pf = 0.1nano farads or 10,000pf is 0.1uf ? Do you Understand :) BTW on your BEMF idea . Whats more than possible :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on February 16, 2009, 12:13:26 AM

@ MK1

I appreciate your efforts and again no offense to the work you have done so far,

My motive so far is to get the most voltage out of the most efficient circuit we have come up so far, it seems that the Fuji circuits fills the bill in that it's able to drive a higher BEMF voltage from the battery and using very little current,

Having said that, I don't believe the toroid JT is a lost cause, just that what gadgetmall has presented with the Fuji modification has a better return for the battery, perhaps we should be looking at the best return for a $2 solar LED running the circuit, it could recharge the battery in the daytime and run the lights at night.

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: AbbaRue on February 16, 2009, 12:16:44 AM

The numbers on those little caps tell you the number of pF of the cap.
eg. 103 means 10,000 pF 472 would be 4,700 pF.
Just like for resistors the first 2 numbers are the value and the last number is how many zeros to add.

@gadgetmall
Glad to hear the good news about your bedini motor.
Could you please post the link to were the open source instructions are found.
I may attempt a replication my self.

Thanks.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 16, 2009, 12:19:54 AM

Quote from: Goat on February 16, 2009, 12:13:26 AM
@ MK1

I appreciate your efforts and again no offense to the work you have done so far,

My motive so far is to get the most voltage out of the most efficient circuit we have come up so far, it seems that the Fuji circuits fills the bill in that it's able to drive a higher BEMF voltage from the battery and using very little current,

Having said that, I don't believe the toroid JT is a lost cause, just that what gadgetmall has presented with the Fuji modification has a better return for the battery, perhaps we should be looking at the best return for a $2 solar LED running the circuit, it could recharge the battery in the daytime and run the lights at night.

Regards,
Paul

Yep even better recharge in the day ,light and recharge in the night too . Think two aa's and a switcher

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on February 16, 2009, 12:23:19 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on February 16, 2009, 12:05:35 AM
Paul It just has 103 On it . According to Miss Jeanna the Chart Indicated 10 is the number times the 3rd number which is 1000 . No i don't understand that Measurement . because Pf is Pico Farads and is 0.000000001F = 1pF) range or one Millionth Millionth of a farad where as Micro farads are in the 0.000001F = 1uF range and is one Millionth of a farad. so 100 pf = 0.1nano farads or 10,000pf is 0.1uf ? Do you Understand :) BTW on your BEMF idea . Whats more than possible :)

Thanks gadgetmall

All this time people have been telling us "So what, you got more voltage but no amps"

Now thanks to you we have more candle power than before using BEMF,

As far as "Do you Understand " no I don't unfortunately (you lost me), is it PF or MF?

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on February 16, 2009, 12:33:39 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on February 15, 2009, 10:44:03 PM
HEY Paul . this is the best photo i have seen so far .Great Work !

Thanks gadgetmall

I used my cheap HP digital camera with a magnifying glass and the camera shutter on the self timer and a small tripod.

I was trying to get the PCB traces and it worked out nice, I posted the reverse of the circuit with all the components earlier on this thread.

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 16, 2009, 12:38:34 AM

here is a pic of 1 light stick im building a few diffrent ones this is the flat style

2 yellow led 10 mm light stick till spool

here is a pic of a soon to be jt pulse gen ;)

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 16, 2009, 12:42:29 AM

Quote from: AbbaRue on February 16, 2009, 12:16:44 AM
The numbers on those little caps tell you the number of pF of the cap.
eg. 103 means 10,000 pF 472 would be 4,700 pF.
Just like for resistors the first 2 numbers are the value and the last number is how many zeros to add.

@gadgetmall
Glad to hear the good news about your bedini motor.
Could you please post the link to were the open source instructions are found.
I may attempt a replication my self.

Thanks.

Its http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6519.0 Started By Goat to Expose It .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 16, 2009, 12:43:43 AM

Quote from: AbbaRue on February 16, 2009, 12:16:44 AM
The numbers on those little caps tell you the number of pF of the cap.
eg. 103 means 10,000 pF 472 would be 4,700 pF.
Just like for resistors the first 2 numbers are the value and the last number is how many zeros to add.

@gadgetmall
Glad to hear the good news about your bedini motor.
Could you please post the link to were the open source instructions are found.
I may attempt a replication my self.

Thanks.

Also 10,000 pf is 0.1MF uf :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on February 16, 2009, 12:49:46 AM

@ innovation_station

No offense to you or anyone else here on this thread but please take a look back at gadgetmall's Fuji mod.

Can it drive more for less? I think so, but please take one of your own Fuji boards and modify it to drive more lights with less amps as he's doing to prove it to yourself.

I'm not trying discourage anyone from reaching the same goal with the JT and reach as much BEMF voltage at the output as the Fuji cct but if you break it down circuit wise why is gadgetmall's Fuji mod achieving better results so far?

That fact can't be ignored.

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 16, 2009, 12:50:50 AM

Quote from: Goat on February 16, 2009, 12:23:19 AM
Thanks gadgetmall

All this time people have been telling us "So what, you got more voltage but no amps"

Now thanks to you we have more candle power than before using BEMF,

As far as "Do you Understand " no I don't unfortunately (you lost me), is it PF or MF?

Regards,
Paul

thats the conundrum . I don't know either . But i believe if you use either 68 pf or .1uf it will engage the small xformer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on February 16, 2009, 12:57:07 AM

Ok thanks gadgetmall

That's all the info I needed.

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 16, 2009, 01:00:28 AM

im well aware of the gadget....

lol

so you are useing the entire cam curcuit gadget...... hummmmmmm

no wonder ... lol

i only was useing the transfiormer .... no doubt you can light cfls so bright ... unless i missunderstand you

you are useing BOTH TRANSFORMERS...... LOL

ist!

if it can be done with the cam it can be done on the jt thing is we wind our jt ... lol it can be wound to SWITCH CURRENT....... WHERE THE FUGI CANNOT...

what will be if .... you switch current

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on February 16, 2009, 01:20:08 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on February 16, 2009, 01:00:28 AM
im well aware of the gadget....

lol

so you are useing the entire cam curcuit gadget...... hummmmmmm

no wonder ... lol

i only was useing the transfiormer .... no doubt you can light cfls so bright ... unless i missunderstand you

you are useing BOTH TRANSFORMERS...... LOL

ist!

if it can be done with the cam it can be done on the jt thing is we wind our jt ... lol it can be wound to SWITCH CURRENT....... WHERE THE FUGI CANNOT...

what will be if .... you switch current

@ innovation_station

I understand somewhat of what your saying, but can one of the circuits light as many lights as gadgetmall's Fuji mod light as JT mod?

The question you have about gadgetmall's use of the whole circuit is what it's all about, how is he using it to light more lights?

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 16, 2009, 01:20:50 AM

Quote from: Goat on February 16, 2009, 12:13:26 AM
@ MK1

I appreciate your efforts and again no offense to the work you have done so far,

My motive so far is to get the most voltage out of the most efficient circuit we have come up so far, it seems that the Fuji circuits fills the bill in that it's able to drive a higher BEMF voltage from the battery and using very little current,

Having said that, I don't believe the toroid JT is a lost cause, just that what gadgetmall has presented with the Fuji modification has a better return for the battery, perhaps we should be looking at the best return for a $2 solar LED running the circuit, it could recharge the battery in the daytime and run the lights at night.

Regards,
Paul

I really don't see where there would be offense , but really before going into bemf i just what to make sure i got a good working toroid , there are not modification on the circuit , it self . I will keep the power of the bemf and the jt gain to make a better circuit, all i am doing is make sure it has a decent pickup coil on it.

I am making my step , gadget made his, it the combination of all steps that will be the winner. I also made test on positive feedback . I am confident that gadget found a great improvement, don't doubt it .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 16, 2009, 01:36:09 AM

@ goat

i have never not once used the entire cam unit LOL!!

maybe i need to have my way with it tooo...

isint the out put round 4000v?

lol

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on February 16, 2009, 01:42:06 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 16, 2009, 01:20:50 AM
I really don't see where there would be offense , but really before going into bemf i just what to make sure i got a good working toroid , there are not modification on the circuit , it self . I will keep the power of the bemf and the jt gain to make a better circuit, all i am doing is make sure it has a decent pickup coil on it.

I am making my step , gadget made his, it the combination of all steps that will be the winner. I also made test on positive feedback . I am confident that gadget found a great improvement, don't doubt it .

Mark

Thanks for the response Mk1

Even though I thought I had enough BEMF with the "Joy buzzer" I played with earlier it was nothing compared to the Fuji or the JT as far as potential which gsdgetmall has achieved with the Fuji mod to light a CFL so why fight it, if you look at the Fuji cct it has similarities to the JT cct, can we work together to make a similar JT cct with enough components to make it equal, that remains to be seen ( I prefer a ready made Fuji cct) ,

There may be a smarter man than gadgetmall but so far I think he has come the closest to resonating a circuit enough to get the maximum BEMF voltage to make things work.

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 16, 2009, 01:53:58 AM

Quote from: Goat on February 16, 2009, 01:42:06 AM
Thanks for the response Mk1

Even though I thought I had enough BEMF with the "Joy buzzer" I played with earlier it was nothing compared to the Fuji or the JT as far as potential which gsdgetmall has achieved with the Fuji mod to light a CFL so why fight it, if you look at the Fuji cct it has similarities to the JT cct, can we work together to make a similar JT cct with enough components to make it equal, that remains to be seen ( I prefer a ready made Fuji cct) ,

There may be a smarter man than gadgetmall but so far I think he has come the closest to resonating a circuit enough to get the maximum BEMF voltage to make things work.

Regards,
Paul

Goat, you are right , everyone stop working , gadget has it there is noting more to say, yes go buy the circuit!

Lest all do it and be done with!

Goat my friend you are so right!

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 16, 2009, 01:59:56 AM

Hey, has anyone lit more than 400 leds with an AA battery? If not, I still have that record. (for now)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on February 16, 2009, 02:06:42 AM

@ gadetmall

One last question, if we were to take the BEMF from the Fuji output could we use the SCR you used in the Bedini citruit to leak back to the battery? I'm still trying to figure out the capacitor circuit in http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6817.0;topicseen

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on February 16, 2009, 02:09:28 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 16, 2009, 01:53:58 AM
Goat, you are right , everyone stop working , gadget has it there is noting more to say, yes go buy the circuit!

Lest all do it and be done with!

Goat my friend you are so right!

Mark

@ Mk1

The Fuji camera's are cheap and easy enough for me to get, I can ship some to you or others if necessary to prove this cct mod.

What I'm saying Mk1 is that for the cost of playing with a toroid and transistor we could be playing with a standard Fuji circuit. The JT cct is subjective to everyone's use of certain components, ie: the toroid material, the amount of copper wire, cw or ccw around the toroid or other ferrite material core etc.

All I'm saying here is that gadgetmall has shown much more light for less amperage using mods that we haven't seen in JT circuits.

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 16, 2009, 02:33:05 AM

Quote from: Goat on February 16, 2009, 02:09:28 AM
@ Mk1

The Fuji camera's are cheap and easy enough for me to get, I can ship some to you or others if necessary to prove this cct mod.

Regards,
Paul

I got one already , since last December, I am not going to stop working on my toroid for many reason , the first its a 5 dollar cam made to be used once , How reliable is it , is my house going to burn ? Second yes it is real good for what it dose , but unless they actually force me to use cfl , i have no use for it. I get over 200 volts easy from my pickup coils , they are not connected to anything in the circuit , and gadget will help for sure in the circuit it self , when i get down to it.

Now please remind me what you did for the cause, i don't remember? I know you can replicate !

@ all

I guess i will take a break from you guys i couple of days , i don't have a good feel about this right now , some will sell there soul for money,others lack in vision , I had a main goal it was unity , and that has nothing to do with energy , I needed you to all work together , and you did . We all did this together but people don't like that much. Even pirate has to mention his discovery again , this is wrong !

Thanks Pirate for this great tread.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 16, 2009, 02:55:13 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 16, 2009, 02:33:05 AM
I got one already , since last December, I am not going to stop working on my toroid for many reason , the first its a 5 dollar cam made to be used once , How reliable is it , is my house going to burn ? Second yes it is real good for what it dose , but unless they actually force me to use cfl , i have no use for it. I get over 200 volts easy from my pickup coils , they are not connected to anything in the circuit , and gadget will help for sure in the circuit it self , when i get down to it.

Now please remind me what you did for the cause, i don't remember? I know you can replicate !

@ all

I guess i will take a break from you guys i couple of days , i don't have a good feel about this right now , some will sell there soul for money,others lack in vision , I had a main goal it was unity , and that has nothing to do with energy , I needed you to all work together , and you did . We all did this together but people don't like that much. Even pirate has to mention his discovery again , this is wrong !

Thanks Pirate for this great tread.

Mark

"Even pirate has to mention his discovery again , this is wrong !"

I didn't have to, I wanted to....what's wrong with that? Everyone should be proud of what they have done, I know I am. I am sorry but this is NOT wrong. I take strong exception to this comment. You have mentioned your achievements numerous times, as have others....so what? We are all proud as we should be.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on February 16, 2009, 03:08:20 AM

@ Mk1

Please don't go away mad, I didn't mean anything towards you in the previous posts other than to keep an open mind towards the possibilities of a given circuit.

"Now please remind me what you did for the cause, i don't remember? I know you can replicate !"

I have tried my best to stay neutral even though I have messed around with the JT circuit since 2006.

That is the whole point of my post, everyone should be able to replicate lighting 300 - 1,000 LED's or 1 CFL it doesn't matter, how close can we make the JT circuit to the Fuji? The original JT cct could only run 1 LED let alone 300 - 1,000 LED's or 1 CFL light, I think gadgetmall and Pirate et al are onto something!

I haven't succeeded yet on an AA battery where gadgetmall has, I'm not biased here on the JT vs the Fuji, all I'm saying is that the Fuji cct has less variables and can achieve better results across more replicators.

Isn't that what we're after?

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 16, 2009, 03:27:05 AM

@pirate

I am sorry , you see it that way, I never meant to offend you in anyway , and really if wanted to make my self a name, i would have started a tread of my own.I my self only mention once my pickup coil, so sorry i did now , but if you go back and read what i meant by it, that is a other story.

I am sure that any jt can light 400 led from a single battery , i believe Jeanna showed that a while back.

But did bring it to hour attention, and thanks for that.

And again , if you take strong exception to this comment , well your missing the point , sorry for that. Maybe i explained my self badly .But really ?

All I am trying to say is that everyone is needed , lets keep that in perspective.

I never meet to offend anyone , if anyone did , you did that on your own .

I was actually , feeling bad for you , since it seams we should all stop to do gadget mod and be done with it.

That is what i think is wrong, There are many way to get a better circuit, lets not stop at one improuvement.

Mark

And if you are mad about this there is really something wrong.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 16, 2009, 03:29:48 AM

Quote from: Goat on February 16, 2009, 03:08:20 AM
@ Mk1

Please don't go away mad, I didn't mean anything towards you in the previous posts other than to keep an open mind towards the possibilities of a given circuit.

"Now please remind me what you did for the cause, i don't remember? I know you can replicate !"

I have tried my best to stay neutral even though I have messed around with the JT circuit since 2006.

That is the whole point of my post, everyone should be able to replicate lighting 300 - 1,000 LED's or 1 CFL it doesn't matter, how close can we make the JT circuit to the Fuji? The original JT cct could only run 1 LED let alone 300 - 1,000 LED's or 1 CFL light, I think gadgetmall and Pirate et al are onto something!

I haven't succeeded yet on an AA battery where gadgetmall has, I'm not biased here on the JT vs the Fuji, all I'm saying is that the Fuji cct has less variables and can achieve better results across more replicators.

Isn't that what we're after?

Regards,
Paul

Any Jt will light has many led that you have , on pickup coil, you missed that part?

And about the gadget mod i told you already , you are right, so what do you want?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Thaelin on February 16, 2009, 04:19:24 AM

disregard, just a plug to start getting notifys again.

thaelin

By the way, my Jt didn't light the fl. :( cam circuits I got were weak.

oh well, If kodak works, why fight it. Camera store just over the way.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 16, 2009, 04:20:14 AM

@ MK1:

Heck No! We are far from done, at least I am. I totally think we have done well and will continue to do so. We could have stopped at 2 leds as the original jt ran with 1. Look where we are now? Where will we be next moth? 10,000 leds? maybe....who knows.

In the beginning of this topic somewhere, I joked about running my heat pump from a jt circuit and now......maybe that's not such a joke after all? I believe anything is possible. I am almost done with my Bedini and can't wait to hook the jt into that.

Anyway, no it is not time to stop and say we have done it. Everything can always be improved upon in my opinion.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Thaelin on February 16, 2009, 04:23:16 AM

Pirate, thats why its called "Research". RE - Search always new avenues to take
and new ideas to try.

thaelin

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 16, 2009, 05:37:56 AM

@Wilby
Thanks for the web address Wil, I will go and take a look shortly.
I don't know if the UPC2933 or LT1084CP is avaliable in Australia, but will google them both to find out.
Nice to know it turns on at .7volt

Yesterday I discovered a Darlington turns on at 1.4volts.
I had made a darlington with descrete BC548 transisters, I turned on my bat switch, and it didnt work, here I am thinking I had done something wrong, just go to show, when you think you know it, something comes along to humble ones self, lol.

General Jim

@ Pardon,
Welcome to the forum,

Your question of "Should you use a fully charged 1.2v or 1.5v AA cell? or use an almost dead cell.

I JUST GOTTTTTA MOUSE, YIPEEEEE de General STRUK again.

No not you Pardon, I gota mouse plague at my place, tis WAR, de General against de Mouse army, I is winning.
Mouses so far over 20, my army no losses. he he.

OK getting back to the matter in hand,
Using an almost flatt batt is recomended, if you have a working Joul Thief unit, then put the flatt battery in and see what happens,
Use a fully charged cell, if you are starting as a newbie and its your first JT.

The JT was designed for the use of 1.5volts, but us smarties have also included 1.2 volt batts as we don't have to worry about the next battery we have to buy.

Anyway Pardon, try swapping the LED around, or if the LED gets too bright, try putting a 1K resistor between the LED and current source.

Welcome to the JT forum Pardon.

General Jim

now I gotta catch up reading posts, all 40 of em lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 16, 2009, 05:54:24 AM

@ Gadgetmall,
Congradulations with achieving recognition for your circuits, thats wonderful.

Mabe Stefan will give you a special icon to put next to your name, ha ha, well you deserve it Al

You do excellent work on our thread and fit in very well indeed.

Ps, I just took this TWV of fthe TV, it's a rocking chair powered by a V8 engine, sorry about the audio

Hooroo

General Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 16, 2009, 06:48:28 AM

@ Flathunter,
Welcome to the JT forum,
Try any combination

@ Ist,
could you post a photo of that tiny supercap you found inside that VCR, then I will dive into my VCR stash pile and take a look see.

@ MrMag,
Sorry to hear you needed knee surgery, hope you are on the mend
Yep, all the posts, ha ha, it comes with the territory, I discovered this much earlier in the forum days, they do tend to creep up on one.
I panicked a bit during last weekend as I hadnt read any for 3 days, man there was a lot to catch on, still is today.

@ Bill,
Good find experiment about the LED in a see through rope, try taking one LED out of 1 end and look into it, it should be producing light.

You have made up half of an opto coupler if you add a light sensitive transister to the other end, you should be able to send a "signal" through a plastic water pipe.

@ Gadget,
a 103 is a pico farad, it is a ceramic capacitor, they can be tiny round brown flat things, a Tantalum, or a flat square thingie.

General Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 16, 2009, 07:35:51 AM

@ Bill,
This is an experiment I just did, because you posted the experiment using a tube coil.

I setup a wine glass, filled with water, using the JT as a power source, I shone the light through the side of the wine glass.

The light went through the wine glass, water and all, and projected a image of the wine glass onto the side of the battery, it didnt end there.
I moved the LED away from the wine glass, and the image got smaller and smaller.
Is this the first time this experiment has been done?

To see the path the LED light travels through water, shine the light through the glass, and look downwards into the glass, you can see how it is corrolated, "laser beam wize" if I addded any impurity to the water it would become more prominent no doubt.

Thanks Bill, I learnt something new because of your experiment today.

Photo0452.jpg = Wine glass experiment setup in light.
0453.jpg = Lights out, LED held directly against side of wine glass, image fills whole of screen (its my big battery)
0544.jpg = LED moved slightly away from side of wine glass, image gets smaller.
0545.jpg = Tiny image of wine glass on screen, and much brighter.
0546.jpg = LED light beam (very faint) but it shows you it is a tight cone of light, a bit like a lighthouse beam.

Just had a shock, nearly walked into a redback spider, he was a biggie, about 2 1/"2 across, well hidden he was at shin high, a sixth sence warned me something wasnt right so I gat a torch, he was on my stand by battery bank verrandah, I changed his diet to poisen, now I'm happy.

Gonna make a cuppa tea, close one this time.

TA
General Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 16, 2009, 07:41:19 AM

@Ist,
VCR capstan electric motor,
Yep, good find this one, there are many poles and coils on the stator, I wonder if we can turn this into a small wind generator, must do some tests on one tomorrow.

General Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on February 16, 2009, 08:08:00 AM

hi all :)

So we've started placing our leds inside transparent housing for added effect?
Well I suppose we could get some neat effects... but none that aren't sold as non-JT versions yet.
Still, some nice looking twinkle in a light tube powered off a dead battery remains impressive. :)

By the way, still nobody else who is bothered by the high pitched sound emitted by
some transformers on the camera boards?
I sure hope the JTs I'll be winding on the ring cores I ordered don't make that noise...
... it drives me nuts to have that thing beeeeeeeeeep all the time. Good thing I've
got modded camera board that don't scream defiance at me all the time, I'm using those
for my JT games now. :)

@IST: you wrote

Quote from: innovation_station on February 15, 2009, 07:20:06 PM
there is much more to the crystals in this set up then shattering the light

tip

i hear blue leds activate the crystals and the crystals release full spectrum

ist

also for some reason blue is only required this was more of a grow food thing the crystals ..

Can you please tell me some more about these mysterious crystals you're talking about?
What crystals are you referring to? Do you have a link or a term I can google for?
thanks! :)

I was thinking, we could use a transparent plastic tube with water in it, and put some luminescent
powder in the water, then use one (or more) UV LEDs to make the powder glow brightly... ?
Sort of like the poor mans DIY fluorescent tube, but instead of a phosphorescent coating
on the inside of the tube we use "glow-in-the-dark" powder and instead of pulse ionising
a mercury vapour that feeds energy to the phosphorescent material, we'd simply use our
JT-powered LEDs... :)
Ok, I admit I have not considered absorption of the UV by the water nor related ionisation
effects, but I do have a little of such glow powder hidden away somewhere and I also have
a couple of UV LEDs (somewhere around here) so I think I may just try it sometime soon.

You also said, in a later post:

Quoteso you are useing the entire cam curcuit gadget...... hummmmmmm

no wonder ... lol

i only was useing the transfiormer .... no doubt you can light cfls so bright ... unless i missunderstand you

you are useing BOTH TRANSFORMERS...... LOL

Now I've only toyed with my 3 modified camera citcuit "Joule Thief"s so far, lit various numbers and types
of LEDs as well as fluorescent tubes, but have not built one from scratch yet (still awaiting my ring cores,
thinking of cannibalising an old and quite large transformer from an old switchboard now, it's just taking too long)...
... but my camera circuits only have one transformer on them...
And the pics I saw of the camera circuits on Jose's website as well as the pics I've seen from others also show
the same circuit and pcb as I have, with one transformer on it.

What camera board are you referring to that has two of them?
Or are you perhaps talking about using two camera board in tandem??

By the way, that's one freaky looking coil ring setup you pulled from those vcrs! ;D
Can you use it in the same way as the ring of JTs you posted like 20 pages ago?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 16, 2009, 08:36:04 AM

@all
I saw on TV a chappy who got hold of a dozen empty 2ltr lemonade clear plastic bottles, filled them with water, drilled holes in his shed roof, and shuved them halfway through the roof.
The sun shone on them, and from inside they lit up very brightly.

Must try this soon. better the power money in my pocket than in others.

General Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Anothertruthfinder on February 16, 2009, 08:49:31 AM

hi folks ;D i'd just like to say great thread and great work everyone. Ive been having a mess about with a jt - i havent got much in the way of torroids except this big one (4.2" outside diameter 2x120v inputs and 2x7.5 volts outputs) a few wires to mess with hehe. ive had over a hundred leds running nearly full brightness on this setup but the draw varies greatly from 120 milliamps and it will run down to 30 milliamps just lighting the leds. currently i have paralelled 2 duracells which have run this rig for 3 days solid near full brightness but heres the twist - on the 3rd day i decided to try and feedback some juice to source so i put a germanium diode from the base of my bd139 tranny back to the negative rail, i got up this morning and there was no light but the current draw showed 12.3 milliamps this morning - ive let it go on to die totally but it seems to be recharging back up slowly by itself (16.7ma currently) i'm waiting to see if it will get back up to light the leds again. maybe not good results just as a basic jt but this feedback thing is interesting. going to keep an eye on this. ill try and get some pics soon - i'm on a light a room on one aa campaign now hehe!

take care guys and gals and keep up the good work - catchya soon - eel

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 16, 2009, 09:28:02 AM

there 2 transformers in every cam unit ... as i have seen

the second is the little one that goes to the flash...

vcr motors ROCK they are designed from inside out!!!!! hummm

think it makes a diff??? lol

they could and can be used many ways ...

so you dont think i can top the fugi with a homemade jt... i know this is wrong ...

AS THE FUGI IS BUILT WRONG ;D ;D ;D

I HAVE SAID THIS LONG TIME AGO ... IT NEEDS TO BE TUNED .... MORE THAN JUST CAP RES AND COIL ...

but walk the path you have choosen

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 16, 2009, 09:28:53 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on February 16, 2009, 01:00:28 AM
im well aware of the gadget....

lol

so you are useing the entire cam curcuit gadget...... hummmmmmm

no wonder ... lol

i only was useing the transfiormer .... no doubt you can light cfls so bright ... unless i missunderstand you

you are useing BOTH TRANSFORMERS...... LOL

ist!

if it can be done with the cam it can be done on the jt thing is we wind our jt ... lol it can be wound to SWITCH CURRENT....... WHERE THE FUGI CANNOT...

what will be if .... you switch current

I thought thats what we are Doing on the MK2 :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 16, 2009, 09:31:46 AM

Quote from: electricme on February 16, 2009, 05:54:24 AM
@ Gadgetmall,
Congradulations with achieving recognition for your circuits, thats wonderful.

Mabe Stefan will give you a special icon to put next to your name, ha ha, well you deserve it Al

You do excellent work on our thread and fit in very well indeed.

Ps, I just took this TWV of fthe TV, it's a rocking chair powered by a V8 engine, sorry about the audio

Hooroo

General Jim

HAHAHAHA That made Me Side Hurt i laughed so much . Thanks Mate !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 16, 2009, 09:35:15 AM

Quote from: electricme on February 16, 2009, 06:48:28 AM
@ Flathunter,
Welcome to the JT forum,
Try any combination

@ Ist,
could you post a photo of that tiny supercap you found inside that VCR, then I will dive into my VCR stash pile and take a look see.

@ MrMag,
Sorry to hear you needed knee surgery, hope you are on the mend
Yep, all the posts, ha ha, it comes with the territory, I discovered this much earlier in the forum days, they do tend to creep up on one.
I panicked a bit during last weekend as I hadnt read any for 3 days, man there was a lot to catch on, still is today.

@ Bill,
Good find experiment about the LED in a see through rope, try taking one LED out of 1 end and look into it, it should be producing light.

You have made up half of an opto coupler if you add a light sensitive transister to the other end, you should be able to send a "signal" through a plastic water pipe.

@ Gadget,
a 103 is a pico farad, it is a ceramic capacitor, they can be tiny round brown flat things, a Tantalum, or a flat square thingie.

General Jim

Jim I know but i dont understand thats its also a .01MFD also that all . I can go buy a .1uf and its really a 103 PF . At least thats what Google says.Edited

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 16, 2009, 09:41:18 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on February 16, 2009, 01:36:09 AM
@ goat

i have never not once used the entire cam unit LOL!!

maybe i need to have my way with it tooo...

isint the out put round 4000v?

lol

ist!

No ist it is not . well it might be if i had a meter that could read that high but what i see is a bit around 1000 volts PAC . It would be 4000 volts if you fire a 350 volt cap filled into it like its supposed to for an instant to Flash the Strobe.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 16, 2009, 09:54:10 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 16, 2009, 01:53:58 AM
Goat, you are right , everyone stop working , gadget has it there is noting more to say, yes go buy the circuit!

Lest all do it and be done with!

Goat my friend you are so right!

Mark

now now Mk . He like's My mods thats all . i like yours and electricmes and ists and Jeanna's and if weren't for Pirate i would have just thought of a cameracircuit as a glorified pig shocker :) And thank you Goat but its really not necessary i have got more than i ever dreamed and thanks to you i got the the Bedini that charges itself out and replicated from people all over the world now . Wow ! and if some one can use it like me cool. The problem is that for instance General Jim Can't get them Where he Lives and Now I am Putting Slayer007 on a High Pedestal Because he has replicated the Fugi transformer circuit . All i need to do is Build it and try to apply some Current saving mods to it or maybe someone else now that they have the idea i have . that will be the Stuff then .!! So everybody Please Do your own thing and i am Stepping out on the sideline cause i pissed enuff people off already :) LUAIC.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 16, 2009, 09:57:48 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 16, 2009, 01:59:56 AM
Hey, has anyone lit more than 400 leds with an AA battery? If not, I still have that record. (for now)

Bill

Yep thats is true and you should be the one who is praised for bring that up ! BTW rather than Pm you for now please tell us if you tried to mod one and please give your results . It won't hurt My feelins if you couldn't make it work . If not i bet its a different gain on the tranny . !!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 16, 2009, 09:59:26 AM

Quote from: Goat on February 16, 2009, 02:06:42 AM
@ gadetmall

One last question, if we were to take the BEMF from the Fuji output could we use the SCR you used in the Bedini citruit to leak back to the battery? I'm still trying to figure out the capacitor circuit in http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6817.0;topicseen

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 16, 2009, 10:12:13 AM

Quote from: Koen1 on February 16, 2009, 08:08:00 AM
hi all :)

I was thinking, we could use a transparent plastic tube with water in it, and put some luminescent
powder in the water, then use one (or more) UV LEDs to make the powder glow brightly... ?
Sort of like the poor mans DIY fluorescent tube, but instead of a phosphorescent coating
on the inside of the tube we use "glow-in-the-dark" powder and instead of pulse ionising
a mercury vapour that feeds energy to the phosphorescent material, we'd simply use our
JT-powered LEDs... :)
Ok, I admit I have not considered absorption of the UV by the water nor related ionisation
effects, but I do have a little of such glow powder hidden away somewhere and I also have
a couple of UV LEDs (somewhere around here) so I think I may just try it sometime soon.

You also said, in a later post:
Now I've only toyed with my 3 modified camera citcuit "Joule Thief"s so far, lit various numbers and types
of LEDs as well as fluorescent tubes, but have not built one from scratch yet (still awaiting my ring cores,
thinking of cannibalising an old and quite large transformer from an old switchboard now, it's just taking too long)...
... but my camera circuits only have one transformer on them...
And the pics I saw of the camera circuits on Jose's website as well as the pics I've seen from others also show
the same circuit and pcb as I have, with one transformer on it.

What camera board are you referring to that has two of them?
Or are you perhaps talking about using two camera board in tandem??

By the way, that's one freaky looking coil ring setup you pulled from those vcrs! ;D
Can you use it in the same way as the ring of JTs you posted like 20 pages ago?

What a Brilliant IDEA koen1 . your Hear that Pirate . That is perfect ! . I got a Batch of Uv leds too . if you shine them on pink it gives off white light ..

@all
Im out of here and History Because I am Broke I will sell any dam thing i want to where i want to and when i want .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on February 16, 2009, 10:32:25 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on February 16, 2009, 09:28:02 AM
there 2 transformers in every cam unit ... as i have seen

the second is the little one that goes to the flash...

I'll attach a pic of a typical "mod cam JT" board, I've circled a component in red,
is this the component you're talking about? Or is it the small square thingy next to it perhaps?
Since the part I circled only has 2 connectors I did not think it to be a trafo,
and the square thingy next to it is depicted as a capacitor on most schematics,
so I don't think that's it, is it?
Is that second trafo on my pic at all?
If so, please! do point it out, because now I'm wondering where this second trafo is.
Or maybe we're just talking about different camera boards althogether?

(sorry for the questions)

Quoteso you dont think i can top the fugi with a homemade jt...

No, I never said that and neither do I think so. The camera circuit is just a
circuit, I'm pretty sure you (or anyone) could build a similar circuit that
functions as a much better JT than the camera circuit. I never claimed otherwise.
I merely stated that I have so far only played around with the modded camera boards
because I have not got workable sized ring cores yet. I have some, but they are way
too small to wind a decent number of windings on, what with the wire diameter and
the big fingers I've got ;D

Quotei know this is wrong ...

AS THE FUGI IS BUILT WRONG

Well, yeah, duh, it was never designed nor intended to be a JT, it was meant to just make
the camera flash work. For that, it did the job.
And it just so happens that when you rip half the components off the pcb, you're left with
a small circuit that resembles the JT circuit to such a degree that you can perform JT-like
tricks with it such as lighting LEDs and CFTs.
But of course it is not a properly designed JT!

QuoteI HAVE SAID THIS LONG TIME AGO ... IT NEEDS TO BE TUNED .... MORE THAN JUST CAP RES AND COIL ...

Okay okay, no need to SHOUT buddy :)
I don't think that's something we should focus on, tuning the camera circuit. I think the camera circuit is a nice plaything,
but if we really want to make proper JTs, we're better off building one of our (your?) own design and from loose components,
and not by ripping the unneeded components off a cheap camera circuit and hoping for the best.
That's why I like to read about the schematics posted by our more electrotechnically inclined friends here,
so that when I finally get down to building a JT from scratch, I can at least take advantage of the insights
thus shared already. :)

Quotebut walk the path you have choosen

you say that as if I have just declared the camera circuits holy doctrine and the true JT a heresy or something ;D
Not sure I've chosen a path at all really, I'm still planning to build a JT and still keeping up with the thread,
and I certainly don't favour the cam mod over the JT proper. Make no mistake.

How's about those crystals, by the way?

Oh, and when you mentioned "Kymatica", did you mean "Cymatics"? ;)

Kind regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 16, 2009, 11:08:31 AM

well

about the fugi being built wrong ..... it is because it is not designed to harness big kicks... ... my mot APEARS TO BE WIRED CORRECTLY

8)

because in 1 pulse i can put 130v in 2 caps 370vac motor run caps... 60uf

1 push of the button .... now that is a tuned transformer wired to recover and compound flyback

with HUGE OUT PUT OVERUNITY .... ELECTRICAL OUT PUT DUHHHHHHH!!!!!!! NO WAY LOL

my investor was tooo BLIND TO SEE THIS DEVICE IN FRONT OF HIS EYES.... LOL

or understand HOW AND WHY IT WORKS EVEN WHEN TOLD HOW ..... SHEESH

THE HELL WITH INVESTORS ... they all are about money WICH IS FAKE!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL

IM ABOUT WHAT I HAVE LEARNED AND CONTINUE TO LEARN

AND WHAT I CHOOSE TO SHARE WHEN I CHOOSE TO SHARE IT ....

for get the crystals for now .... lol

i have had mine close to 2 years now .... i have not opened the bag.... 8)

it is best to learn WHAT YOU TOY WITH FIRST 8)

IST!

@keon1 ;D verry nice responce ..... to the "Kymatica", did you mean "Cymatics"? lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05Io6lop3mk

;D

good video eh!!!! :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on February 16, 2009, 11:26:40 AM

@koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 16, 2009, 02:05:41 PM

@all

These are ceramic capacitors.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on February 16, 2009, 02:31:55 PM

Hmm okay, that seems to make some sense :)
So the red circled thing is a cap? Then why does it look so funny?
It looks like two small rods with a spool of fine wire wound around
both rods, and a cover of plastic. It also does not mention a voltage
nor a fahrad count... It does read "223K" but I'm not sure if that has
anything to do with the dielectric constant or if it is a serial number.
But ok, it does resemble a cap more than anything else so I'll buy it. :)
I wasn't sure since I know caps in the form posted by Jesus there,
those look familiar, and I have a lot of the other type too, the slightly larger
cylindrical ones (up to much larger of course, but in electronics usually
quite small).

Can anyone explain why this particular cap looks like this, with the
transparent plastic cover and what looks like fine wire wound around
its innards? Why does it not look like the ones more commonly found in
consumer electronics, the type Jesus posted a pic of?

Then the small thingy must be a trafo. Not one with a ring core though,
or perhaps a really miniature one...
So lets say I rip this off and replace it with one of those slightly larger trafos...
... would you say that is a step in the right direction or would you say
it's a waste of time and get to work on a real JT? ;D

Anyways,
thanks for the replies guys :)

Regards,
Koen

P.S. I pulled apart a CFL. Dunno who posted it but for your info: this was
an 8W Philips "Tornado" CFL made for 220-240V with the famous spiral
shaped glass tube and it runs just fine on one of my modified camera boards.
I suppose the electronics may be slightly different in order to handle the 220V AC
but I'm not sure if there's much difference in the CFL tube itself. Don't think so...
I can describe the components on its pcb if you like? Just say so.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 16, 2009, 02:54:13 PM

@ Koen1:

That IS a heck of an idea with the flouro powder and the uv led!!! That might be just what I need to carry the light through the entire tube length. Do you think the powder would stay suspended in the water? Or do you think it would settle out eventually? What about florescent paint? Could we not find a good, bright paint excited by the wavelength of our uv leds and pour a little through the tube to just coat the inside? Then, let it dry and fire it up from both ends maybe? I'll bet my hobby lobby store has this type of paint. I have to try this. If you have the powder, try that and I'll give the paint a go.

What I should do is bring a jt circuit into the store with me wired with a uv led and "try" it on the various color paints to see which is excited the most, then buy that one. I have never messed with any uv leds before. I think General Jim posted way, way back the wavelength they put out.

And yes, that small block on the circuit board is the trigger coil. (As Wilby has so kindly indicated, thank you) I am soldered to one pin on the trigger coil but I don't know if it is really in my circuit or not. I am not getting like 3,000 volts or anything, closer to 400 or so.

@ General Jim:

Fascinating find with the led and wine glass!!! You made a projector and I guess the water and the glass were acting somehow as the lens? I had never seen anything like this before. Good luck on the war. Don't cut them any slack now or they will regroup and launch an offensive. You got them on the run, attack! Attack!

@ Gadgetmall:

No, I have not yet tried to replicate your Fuji mod. I will. I just thought it would be easier to buy one from you and then I could see exactly how you have done this. I have been pretty busy with work (thank God) and have not had much time to experiment as I would like to. Still working on the Bedini when I can, and now, I want to run out and buy some flouro paint to try the tube coating ideas. I get side tracked easily as you have seen.

I totally agree that anyone here can do whatever it is they want to do. If you are able to sell some boards and lights, more power to you. The same for IST and any one of us. To me, this is not "selling out" it is a matter of survival.

The only thing I have seen on another topic related to this (but not really) was where a guy started a topic and knew next to nothing about the subject. (Kind of like me, ha ha) Through many posts, including some from me, he was educated and helped along and some real learning took place on his part. Everyone pitched in to help this fellow and gave him many ideas to try. The guy then, deleted all of his posts and informed us he was applying for a patent.
This was ridiculous as without the others help, he would have never made it work and, he had already disclosed the info he did have in a public forum and therefore a patent is out of the question. (Or supposed to be, that's why he deleted his posts, probably on the advice of his attorney) he was going to waste a lot of money for a patent that would be null and void from the day he got it, if he ever got it. Then, unless he had a lot of money to defend his patent (the average patent defense lawsuit is about 1 million dollars according to my attorney) it would be public domain. Even worse, as my attorney explained to me some 30 years ago when I went through the process, if 3 people jump a patent and a guy can only afford to defend against one, then the patent is considered not defended and therefore public domain. To me, patents are a useless waste of money and effort. My attorney's advice was to invent something, and since I invented it, I should know more about how to make it than anyone copying it. he said I should just make and sell as many as I could, which we did, and then come up with improvements if others try to duplicate the device.

So, to recap, if my water bottle leds or light tube devices were to turn out to be a saleable item, I would do that. Not to get rich, which I wouldn't (limited market) but just to off-set the expenses of buying all of these components I have bought this past 5 months. I see nothing wrong with that at all. If I were to be lucky enough to sell $500 worth of something, I would dump that money right back into larger toroids, bigger solar cells, more and more leds, etc.

So, don't sit on the sidelines here, no one should. We need everyone and their ideas and experiments to benefit all. And, if you can make a few bucks selling some devices, do it. You can't eat a Fuji board or leds right? (I have tried....well, not really.)

Everyone keep up the great work being done here. I am not biased toward the Fuji or the toroid design in any way, I am working on both. Different tools for different applications is the way I see it. Just my humble opinions.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 16, 2009, 03:02:29 PM

@ Koen1:

Trust me, Wilby is correct, that is a cap. I had never seen one like that before either. I know it is a cap because....yes, you guessed it, it zapped me pretty good a few times. I was tired of getting shocked while trying to make my videos and I learned not to touch where the large cap use to be. (zap) then, one day, with NO BATTERY on the board, I was getting ready to video an experiment and I picked up the board and my finger completed the circuit on the cap leads and......ZAP! I was dumbfounded as I had not had a battery on this board all night. So, wanting to learn, I probed around on the board to see what bit me and.....ZAP! I got hit again. I posted all of this many pages ago and someone on here kindly informed me that the silver can thing was a cap. (Thank you whoever that was)

As far as removing and adding another transformer, all I can say is try it. I have run 2 transformers from two boards in parallel from one battery and got a pretty good boost effect so, this should work on the same board too but I don't really know.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 16, 2009, 05:02:08 PM

Quote from: Koen1 on February 16, 2009, 02:31:55 PM
Hmm okay, that seems to make some sense :)
So the red circled thing is a cap? Then why does it look so funny?
It looks like two small rods with a spool of fine wire wound around
both rods, and a cover of plastic. It also does not mention a voltage
nor a fahrad count... It does read "223K" but I'm not sure if that has
anything to do with the dielectric constant or if it is a serial number.
But ok, it does resemble a cap more than anything else so I'll buy it. :)
I wasn't sure since I know caps in the form posted by Jesus there,
those look familiar, and I have a lot of the other type too, the slightly larger
cylindrical ones (up to much larger of course, but in electronics usually
quite small).

Can anyone explain why this particular cap looks like this, with the
transparent plastic cover and what looks like fine wire wound around
its innards? Why does it not look like the ones more commonly found in
consumer electronics, the type Jesus posted a pic of?

Then the small thingy must be a trafo. Not one with a ring core though,
or perhaps a really miniature one...
So lets say I rip this off and replace it with one of those slightly larger trafos...
... would you say that is a step in the right direction or would you say
it's a waste of time and get to work on a real JT? ;D

Anyways,
thanks for the replies guys :)

Regards,
Koen

P.S. I pulled apart a CFL. Dunno who posted it but for your info: this was
an 8W Philips "Tornado" CFL made for 220-240V with the famous spiral
shaped glass tube and it runs just fine on one of my modified camera boards.
I suppose the electronics may be slightly different in order to handle the 220V AC
but I'm not sure if there's much difference in the CFL tube itself. Don't think so...
I can describe the components on its pcb if you like? Just say so.

Very Nice Keon1 . What Kind of Camera Board was it and what kink of CFL . Spiral or u Shaped ?I am Sure others would like to know because most are having a hard time lighting them .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 16, 2009, 05:22:05 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 16, 2009, 02:54:13 PM
@ Koen1:

That IS a heck of an idea with the flouro powder and the uv led!!! That might be just what I need to carry the light through the entire tube length. Do you think the powder would stay suspended in the water? Or do you think it would settle out eventually? What about florescent paint? Could we not find a good, bright paint excited by the wavelength of our uv leds and pour a little through the tube to just coat the inside? Then, let it dry and fire it up from both ends maybe? I'll bet my hobby lobby store has this type of paint. I have to try this. If you have the powder, try that and I'll give the paint a go.

What I should do is bring a jt circuit into the store with me wired with a uv led and "try" it on the various color paints to see which is excited the most, then buy that one. I have never messed with any uv leds before. I think General Jim posted way, way back the wavelength they put out.

And yes, that small block on the circuit board is the trigger coil. (As Wilby has so kindly indicated, thank you) I am soldered to one pin on the trigger coil but I don't know if it is really in my circuit or not. I am not getting like 3,000 volts or anything, closer to 400 or so.

@ General Jim:

Fascinating find with the led and wine glass!!! You made a projector and I guess the water and the glass were acting somehow as the lens? I had never seen anything like this before. Good luck on the war. Don't cut them any slack now or they will regroup and launch an offensive. You got them on the run, attack! Attack!

@ Gadgetmall:

No, I have not yet tried to replicate your Fuji mod. I will. I just thought it would be easier to buy one from you and then I could see exactly how you have done this. I have been pretty busy with work (thank God) and have not had much time to experiment as I would like to. Still working on the Bedini when I can, and now, I want to run out and buy some flouro paint to try the tube coating ideas. I get side tracked easily as you have seen.

I totally agree that anyone here can do whatever it is they want to do. If you are able to sell some boards and lights, more power to you. The same for IST and any one of us. To me, this is not "selling out" it is a matter of survival.

The only thing I have seen on another topic related to this (but not really) was where a guy started a topic and knew next to nothing about the subject. (Kind of like me, ha ha) Through many posts, including some from me, he was educated and helped along and some real learning took place on his part. Everyone pitched in to help this fellow and gave him many ideas to try. The guy then, deleted all of his posts and informed us he was applying for a patent.
This was ridiculous as without the others help, he would have never made it work and, he had already disclosed the info he did have in a public forum and therefore a patent is out of the question. (Or supposed to be, that's why he deleted his posts, probably on the advice of his attorney) he was going to waste a lot of money for a patent that would be null and void from the day he got it, if he ever got it. Then, unless he had a lot of money to defend his patent (the average patent defense lawsuit is about 1 million dollars according to my attorney) it would be public domain. Even worse, as my attorney explained to me some 30 years ago when I went through the process, if 3 people jump a patent and a guy can only afford to defend against one, then the patent is considered not defended and therefore public domain. To me, patents are a useless waste of money and effort. My attorney's advice was to invent something, and since I invented it, I should know more about how to make it than anyone copying it. he said I should just make and sell as many as I could, which we did, and then come up with improvements if others try to duplicate the device.

So, to recap, if my water bottle leds or light tube devices were to turn out to be a saleable item, I would do that. Not to get rich, which I wouldn't (limited market) but just to off-set the expenses of buying all of these components I have bought this past 5 months. I see nothing wrong with that at all. If I were to be lucky enough to sell $500 worth of something, I would dump that money right back into larger toroids, bigger solar cells, more and more leds, etc.

So, don't sit on the sidelines here, no one should. We need everyone and their ideas and experiments to benefit all. And, if you can make a few bucks selling some devices, do it. You can't eat a Fuji board or leds right? (I have tried....well, not really.)

Everyone keep up the great work being done here. I am not biased toward the Fuji or the toroid design in any way, I am working on both. Different tools for different applications is the way I see it. Just my humble opinions.

Bill

In regards to posting Circuits and improvements for instance the Bedini self charger is posted o here with backups from Stephan . So is the Gadget mod to the JT and Fuji . Now what if a Lurker who is not in the forum and steals this and makes Billions of dollars off My Circuit . Your Saying that open source is basically Useless with having Millions of dollars to defend My Circuit when someone steals it and paten tents it . The Only thing i did is mail Myself a copy of the Post and schematic and leave it unsealed . I guess that's useless too huh ?So that on my mind . people allways come up with ideas that make Millions . Look at RON-Co ..He sells junk but people buy it with the right advertisement . And if i happened to have aJt that runs for years and posted it what to stop them . ? Also i guess the people that are uneasy about selling stuff here have food on the table and heat and lights and water .they need to think of someone besides themselves . i the table was turned i would support that cause too. I have ate two meals this past 2 days .supper rice with salt and pepper :) I really need the money so yea if i can help you and you can help me then great . thanks
Al. But don't feel sorry for me cause i count on the Lord for most everything and it always works out the way he want it too . :) Oh if you can get the powder its the best . you can make gallons of pain and liquid and still have enough for year and years . look it up on eBay ..Glow powder.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 16, 2009, 06:47:52 PM

@gadget

I sorry you feel that way, btw i have less money than any of you guys , i have less then 600 a month and a pay over 400 for a apartment , that being said , its - 20 c today. So all i am trying to do is get people working together before its to late, internet 2 is coming real soon , by that time what we have here will no longer be a option.My cat eats pet food , am i eat bread and water , so ? I am not proud of it , but for once i am really at peace.

@all

What i am saying is it not time to play around, the world is changing , internet will be replaced by internet 2 any day now, pay per use sites , so in the end youtube , facebook, myspace , they are trojan , for internet 2 , and are places where the sensorship is accepted. so there will be a main stream internet dumb down , and old internet losing its content because no body will be on it anymore. The time to act is now, we have a chance at doing thing that are bigger that each of us. Help mankind, we only have one chance at this. Yes making a few bucks is a good idea , but really do you think any of our work
will be sold at walmart, power companies will let that happen , yes right. The only thing you can do is built it yourself, that the only way to get it. And my goal is give the to those how want to help them self.Yes selling is good , but got us where we are now ! If you really like your world. so go for it!

@all that got offended , by my comments , i did not offend you , you did that your self. I made money quick of the back of people , and lost my self , got sick , got better when i decided to do good , funny ! No not really , i was raised a good boy , but life forced me to do bad things that are acceptable in big companies .

I am just wishing that those that can stand , do!

god , the pope , the president , none of those will give you anything, if you want help , then help your self , and stop waiting for a savior .

the missing link between humans and monkeys is man , i was born a human ,was made into a man , but will die a human.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 16, 2009, 07:24:27 PM

yes we all are poor

but so what ... the world is poor does that make any of this less real?

no

this is verry real tesla knew it .... ;D

im really surprized with the light i get out of 6 eds in thease light tubes ... i put 3 light tubes on 1 board white leds ... im gonna finish it then post a pic ...

work good for a nite light ...

ist

@mk1 .... if we can get past all the bad in the world today we will realize DEATH WILL BE NO MORE ;)

we will take NOTE to the new advancements in DNA sicence .... you will note that dna can regrow its self

this is real and verry TRUE .......

what is more wild than that ... a hologram can be used as a source .... to cure the infected cells

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 16, 2009, 08:02:12 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 16, 2009, 06:47:52 PM
@gadget

I sorry you feel that way, btw i have less money than any of you guys , i have less then 600 a month and a pay over 400 for a apartment , that being said , its - 20 c today. So all i am trying to do is get people working together before its to late, internet 2 is coming real soon , by that time what we have here will no longer be a option.My cat eats pet food , am i eat bread and water , so ? I am not proud of it , but for once i am really at peace.

@all

What i am saying is it not time to play around, the world is changing , internet will be replaced by internet 2 any day now, pay per use sites , so in the end youtube , facebook, myspace , they are trojan , for internet 2 , and are places where the sensorship is accepted. so there will be a main stream internet dumb down , and old internet losing its content because no body will be on it anymore. The time to act is now, we have a chance at doing thing that are bigger that each of us. Help mankind, we only have one chance at this. Yes making a few bucks is a good idea , but really do you think any of our work
will be sold at walmart, power companies will let that happen , yes right. The only thing you can do is built it yourself, that the only way to get it. And my goal is give the to those how want to help them self.Yes selling is good , but got us where we are now ! If you really like your world. so go for it!

@all that got offended , by my comments , i did not offend you , you did that your self. I made money quick of the back of people , and lost my self , got sick , got better when i decided to do good , funny ! No not really , i was raised a good boy , but life forced me to do bad things that are acceptable in big companies .

I am just wishing that those that can stand , do!

god , the pope , the president , none of those will give you anything, if you want help , then help your self , and stop waiting for a savior .

the missing link between humans and monkeys is man , i was born a human ,was made into a man , but will die a human.

Mark

Monkeys eah ? HAHA . well not me .I was Born a Baby from my mama And Ma taught em about the Bible and how God Created the earth and Heavens . I have seen Miricals that only can come from above man . Peace . Lets do somthing then .. Im working on your Roid ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 16, 2009, 08:08:03 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on February 16, 2009, 07:24:27 PM
yes we all are poor

but so what ... the world is poor does that make any of this less real?

no

this is verry real tesla knew it .... ;D

im really surprized with the light i get out of 6 eds in thease light tubes ... i put 3 light tubes on 1 board white leds ... im gonna finish it then post a pic ...

work good for a nite light ...

ist

@mk1 .... if we can get past all the bad in the world today we will realize DEATH WILL BE NO MORE ;)

we will take NOTE to the new advancements in DNA sicence .... you will note that dna can regrow its self

this is real and verry TRUE .......

what is more wild than that ... a hologram can be used as a source .... to cure the infected cells

HEy . Heres The Eternal Light :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on February 16, 2009, 08:16:17 PM

@ Gadgetmall

Just tried to send you a PM but for some reason it doesn't seem to work today, I got "An Error Has Occurred!
Many apologies, but you can't view just any profile."

Anyways, I made the mod as posted on the circuit board but no go :( I went back and read your instructions but I'm not sure where I went wrong if anywhere, I tested the circuit before doing the mod and it charged up the cap likety split but after removing the cap the strobe jumping the diode replacing the 220 ohm resistor with a 10 k pot and soldering the 2 caps and jump wires all I get at the output is the same voltage as the battery!

Could you take a look back at the PCB pic I posted and see if there's an error on it please.

Edit: I'm posting the pic of the PCB mod, the kicker switch is only a wire which I touch to the 10 k pot if need for now.

Thanks,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 16, 2009, 08:28:25 PM

GADGET nice kit ....

drop me some pics a short vid .. and and the PRICE . I WILL LIST ASAP ... YOU WILL THEN HAVE A JOB :) I KONW THERE IS A DEMAND ...

mk1

same deal ... need pic even just your drawn schem... i will have it drawen in corel draw .. we will list kits... and you will become employed ...

anyone else.....

i do think we need to move away from the cfls tho ... i hear they dont put out the best stuff......

gadget have you tryed a kv cap yet?....

if it wont charge em i got something that does with ease ... but i would like a small unit ... no worries i know EXACTLY WHAT TO DO WITH IT ... AS WILL YOU SOON ;D 8)

@FREEZER

if your still round ... i would really like the mk2 modled 3d ... if you would like to takle this one ... perhaps we could work somthing out ..

i have bout 200 things i could use modled ... but the mk2 is a great unit ... and im sure your 3d modle would GET SENT OUT WITH EACH DO IT YOURSELF KIT

AS I RECALL I HAD A SCHOOL OR 2 INTRESTED IN ORDERS IT WOULD BE A GREAT PLACE TO START ....

ist!

beleave it or not i just found another super cap.... lol in a shake it flash light ... agin . nec 5.5v .047f thats 2 of em ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 16, 2009, 08:37:30 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on February 16, 2009, 05:22:05 PM
In regards to posting Circuits and improvements for instance the Bedini self charger is posted o here with backups from Stephan . So is the Gadget mod to the JT and Fuji . Now what if a Lurker who is not in the forum and steals this and makes Billions of dollars off My Circuit . Your Saying that open source is basically Useless with having Millions of dollars to defend My Circuit when someone steals it and paten tents it . The Only thing i did is mail Myself a copy of the Post and schematic and leave it unsealed . I guess that's useless too huh ?So that on my mind . people allways come up with ideas that make Millions . Look at RON-Co ..He sells junk but people buy it with the right advertisement . And if i happened to have aJt that runs for years and posted it what to stop them . ? Also i guess the people that are uneasy about selling stuff here have food on the table and heat and lights and water .they need to think of someone besides themselves . i the table was turned i would support that cause too. I have ate two meals this past 2 days .supper rice with salt and pepper :) I really need the money so yea if i can help you and you can help me then great . thanks
Al. But don't feel sorry for me cause i count on the Lord for most everything and it always works out the way he want it too . :) Oh if you can get the powder its the best . you can make gallons of pain and liquid and still have enough for year and years . look it up on eBay ..Glow powder.

"Your Saying that open source is basically Useless"

No man, no! Quite the contrary. I am saying getting a patent is useless. This, of course, is my opinion but I did go through all of this about 30 years ago. (at a cost of over $10,000)

If some lurker takes YOUR idea and design and manages to obtain a patent, it would be a very cheap simple matter for you to have it declared null and void...so...they will be out many thousands of dollars for nothing. To obtain a patent, a person HAS to be the inventor, and the device can not have been made public. You could easily prove that this was your design and it was exposed to the public (us) on such and such a date so...they would be totally out of luck. Again, I am not an attorney and I do not give legal advice, but this is what my corporate attorney told me. So, to reiterate, open source is the only way to go.

Great light photo!! I love light.

@ MK1:

Look man, I am sorry for your situation but, do not be fooled, many on here are in similar shape in one way or another. In fact if you bring in 600/month you made a lot more than I did last year....a lot more. And I have to pay 300/month in child support!!! (which is NOT tax deductible) So, let's not compare situations because I have found no matter how bad things have been for me, I do not have to look very far to find someone worse than I am. Things do turn around. It has happened to me before and I believe it is happening once again.

I do believe we are all working together here. Your design (with Jeanna) is doing much better than any of my toroid units to date. We keep this up and there is no telling what we can do.

Also, if you think the "free market" got us to where we are today, well, this is just not correct. We have not had a free market economy since Jimmy Carter. If the government would let the market work, we would be just fine. Again, just my opinion but based on hard facts.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 16, 2009, 08:42:19 PM

@gadgetmall

I am not sure i got what you said , but Darwin , i am not a fan.I am sorry i got this topic out of subject, All i am saying is that man is not human , The modern man live off the back of others, how human is that, keep poping pills , believe me i got to that point ,now out of it , i can tell you there has never been anything wrong with me. Except getting adjusted to society , human dose that , adjust to anything, the question is when its wrong morally , it destroy you , and nobody cares , but i do.

Take what you think i am saying and trash it , but all i want is a better future for all. The creator doesn't care much for people, that can't do it for them self.

Since people only see negative , and i am not about that at all, i did not even right anything negative.

making money , has replace the spiritual need , and guide our action , then what it left of life that is real.

The day you will die , what will you have to show for your trip , got to be a slave all your life , having only one thing in mind money, and making money , and more fun spending money.

We are one the same side, sorry you can't see that.

Yes we live in a tesla world , but we get only got stuff they could make money from. Why ?

Mark

Why do you guys get frustrated? I have no clue ? Did anyone even bother understanding , what i an saying?
Really ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 16, 2009, 08:52:37 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 16, 2009, 08:37:30 PM

Also, if you think the "free market" got us to where we are today, well, this is just not correct. We have not had a free market economy since Jimmy Carter. If the government would let the market work, we would be just fine. Again, just my opinion but based on hard facts.

Bill

Well you got that right.

@ist

My mk2 gives me a 145 volts ac , center tap connected to the neg of the battery no diodes, I am already on the mk6.Smaller gauge 6 secondary on each side , 4 times more output.

@all

I just want all of you to do what you are best at , or can afford to do!
I am not going to do it all alone !

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 16, 2009, 08:59:32 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 16, 2009, 08:42:19 PM
@gadgetmall

I am not sure i got what you said , but Darwin , i am not a fan.I am sorry i got this topic out of subject, All i am saying is that man is not human , The modern man live off the back of others, how human is that, keep poping pills , believe me i got to that point ,now out of it , i can tell you there has never been anything wrong with me. Except getting adjusted to society , human dose that , adjust to anything, the question is when its wrong morally , it destroy you , and nobody cares , but i do.

Take what you think i am saying and trash it , but all i want is a better future for all. The creator doesn't care much for people, that can't do it for them self.

Since people only see negative , and i am not about that at all, i did not even right anything negative.

making money , has replace the spiritual need , and guide our action , then what it left of life that is real.

The day you will die , what will you have to show for your trip , got to be a slave all your life , having only one thing in mind money, and making money , and more fun spending money.

We are one the same side, sorry you can't see that.

Yes we live in a tesla world , but we get only got stuff they could make money from. Why ?

Mark

Why do you guys get frustrated? I have no clue ? Did anyone even bother understanding , what i an saying?
Really ?

I get what you are saying the point is I do not agree with it is all. I am not about money. (Obviously) I have never made any money off the backs of others and I share what I have when I have it. Now if everyone did this, yes the world would be better but, they don't and they won't so, I would not worry too much about it. Not everyone is like you are saying at all. Most people? Probably. That is why I have very little use for most people. I do what I want and go where I want when I want and this does not take money, it just takes deciding to do it and to not be chasing the same things some of the others are. i am very happy with my life now and I sure have a lot less in material things than I used to but, crap like that does not matter to me. One day, I might even be able to afford health insurance, that would be the only luxury I would probably buy.

So, as long as you are not including everyone in what you are saying, then I think we agree more than disagree.

If you sell you coils at IST's store, or somewhere and it helps someone to get more light for less money, this is a good thing. Everybody wins, you get some money, they get light for less....this is how the system is supposed to work. heck I would buy one in a heartbeat.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 16, 2009, 09:01:58 PM

guys i have this real nice shake it .... ;D

it is a bigger one i just took it apart it is a real one ........ means heaver coil big magnet .... has a reed in it and a supercap ... NO BATTERIES EATHER

HUMMMM ALREADY USEING KICK POWER........ DUH!!!!!! LOL

IST

PICS LATER

must be a big cap too as it runs the led a wile from a few shakes .... ;D so do this .... power jt regular one charge super cap ... run ... cam unit power 500 leds from a dead battery ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 16, 2009, 09:07:28 PM

IST:

That's where I got my first supercap and very strong neo from during last year's earth battery experiments. That is a good cap in there if it is like mine was. A lot of good parts in there for the $3.00 I paid for it. Hey, could you post the pics of your flashlight modification again? I am working on one with 13 leds and I think my light is similar to yours. That was a great idea you had there. Better light, more light and longer with less.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 16, 2009, 09:08:26 PM

@ Gadgetmall

Thanks for the Ha Ha's, the rocking chair sure took a belting. Now if they had made it using steel, I wonder how long it would have held up to a V8 engine going flat strap, that would be an excellent and interresting experiment.

Jim I know but i dont understand thats its also a .01MFD also that all . I can go buy a .1uf and its really a 103 PF . At least thats what Google says.

Al, whats happened is, in the early days, when the company who made thiee ceramics decided to name them, they didn't go to all the electroonic manufactures, and talk about using a single uniform discription code, they just decided to call it their way, if their discription of their part made sence to them, too bad for the oppersition.
Then another manufacturer does the same, but not to be outdone, they call it a different thing, but in a way that dosent alter the actual capacitance itself, so as long as everyones electrical discription of their parts is correct and dosent cross any measurement boundaries, then theres not much anyone can do about it. The outcome is total confusion.

Believe me when I say this, many electronic engineers get confused, and I bet they all have a set of tables on their desks to cross reference these parts.

Download a cross reference capacitance chart and print it out and put it somewhere handy.

Yep, I agree, the current ceramic code need a good overhaul so it can be a simple thing to remember and understand.

General Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on February 16, 2009, 09:20:00 PM

Hi All

After getting somewhat confused over the cap values last night I ran across this site that explains it really simple at
http://www.geocities.com/g_wellwood/electronics/capacitors.html and it helped refresh my memory.

Thanks to all that posted, attached is a capacitance equivalent chart as well if anyone needs it.

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 16, 2009, 09:46:42 PM

yes bill i will re post it ... soon :)

i took the flashlight apart it is a 5.5v .33f super cap holds a bit the led runs for 10 -15 seconds it also has a bridge rectifier in it ... so it takes both pos and neg from the coil flips it to dc ... adds up to more ... kicks must also play a roll ..... ;)

ist

just a awsome pulse motor supply and trigger unit ;) ;D 8) jt it did some one say lol :o :P

TIP ....... VCR HEADS ARE A GOOD SUPPLY FOR TPU COILS.... AND HEAVY DUTY PULSE MOTOR FLY WHEEL AND BEARINGS .... REMOVE THE MOTOR ...... KEEP IT ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 16, 2009, 09:58:56 PM

Quote from: Goat on February 16, 2009, 08:16:17 PM
@ Gadgetmall

Just tried to send you a PM but for some reason it doesn't seem to work today, I got "An Error Has Occurred!
Many apologies, but you can't view just any profile."

Anyways, I made the mod as posted on the circuit board but no go :( I went back and read your instructions but I'm not sure where I went wrong if anywhere, I tested the circuit before doing the mod and it charged up the cap likety split but after removing the cap the strobe jumping the diode replacing the 220 ohm resistor with a 10 k pot and soldering the 2 caps and jump wires all I get at the output is the same voltage as the battery!

Could you take a look back at the PCB pic I posted and see if there's an error on it please.

Edit: I'm posting the pic of the PCB mod, the kicker switch is only a wire which I touch to the 10 k pot if need for now.

Thanks,
Paul

Paul do not need HV mod . REMOVE THE PARTS INDICATED . MAKE SURE NO SHORT IN CIRCLE . and use 110 volt spiral bulb .This will not work as posted in previous post on 220 volt bulbs . At least Mine wont . > only other thing is the transistor might needs replacing to a 2sd1960 . All My Fugi have that Transistor and all work however the fugi as posted By Nieves's shows that there are a dozen different transistors on them so they are all not the same but some work some dont .OK hope that helps . DISCLAIMER :***** . USE AT YOUR OWN RISK ! . COULD MAKE YOU PULL YOUR HAIR OUT !*****
Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 16, 2009, 10:16:13 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 16, 2009, 08:37:30 PM
"Your Saying that open source is basically Useless"

No man, no! Quite the contrary. I am saying getting a patent is useless. This, of course, is my opinion but I did go through all of this about 30 years ago. (at a cost of over $10,000)

If some lurker takes YOUR idea and design and manages to obtain a patent, it would be a very cheap simple matter for you to have it declared null and void...so...they will be out many thousands of dollars for nothing. To obtain a patent, a person HAS to be the inventor, and the device can not have been made public. You could easily prove that this was your design and it was exposed to the public (us) on such and such a date so...they would be totally out of luck. Again, I am not an attorney and I do not give legal advice, but this is what my corporate attorney told me. So, to reiterate, open source is the only way to go.

Great light photo!! I love light.

@ MK1:

Look man, I am sorry for your situation but, do not be fooled, many on here are in similar shape in one way or another. In fact if you bring in 600/month you made a lot more than I did last year....a lot more. And I have to pay 300/month in child support!!! (which is NOT tax deductible) So, let's not compare situations because I have found no matter how bad things have been for me, I do not have to look very far to find someone worse than I am. Things do turn around. It has happened to me before and I believe it is happening once again.

I do believe we are all working together here. Your design (with Jeanna) is doing much better than any of my toroid units to date. We keep this up and there is no telling what we can do.

Also, if you think the "free market" got us to where we are today, well, this is just not correct. We have not had a free market economy since Jimmy Carter. If the government would let the market work, we would be just fine. Again, just my opinion but based on hard facts.

Bill

Oh thanks for Clearing that up about if its public then they cant patent it .Great . No Worries Just a thought that these are real good Circuits .All of em . I personally Like The One Jeanna did with two 11 turns then a one turn secondary . that will run from a Dead(1.01volts ) for three and half weeks running 20 leds :) . I Don't like to fuss and i don't want to Shove Christian Values down an Atheist throat . It was wrong and i am deleting that post . .
Mk if you want to be evolved from monkeys thats fine :)
Peace Guys . Lets Do something K ?
thanks Pirate

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 16, 2009, 10:34:12 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 16, 2009, 08:42:19 PM
@gadgetmall

I am not sure i got what you said , but Darwin , i am not a fan.I am sorry i got this topic out of subject, All i am saying is that man is not human , The modern man live off the back of others, how human is that, keep poping pills , believe me i got to that point ,now out of it , i can tell you there has never been anything wrong with me. Except getting adjusted to society , human dose that , adjust to anything, the question is when its wrong morally , it destroy you , and nobody cares , but i do.

Take what you think i am saying and trash it , but all i want is a better future for all. The creator doesn't care much for people, that can't do it for them self.

Since people only see negative , and i am not about that at all, i did not even right anything negative.

making money , has replace the spiritual need , and guide our action , then what it left of life that is real.

The day you will die , what will you have to show for your trip , got to be a slave all your life , having only one thing in mind money, and making money , and more fun spending money.

We are one the same side, sorry you can't see that.

Yes we live in a tesla world , but we get only got stuff they could make money from. Why ?

Mark

Why do you guys get frustrated? I have no clue ? Did anyone even bother understanding , what i an saying?
Really ?

Hey When the the Lady's gone the Boys get rowdy only thing i can figure . No i Know where your coming from . Its called Sin and No one is Immune from it However all we can do is the BEST we can ..Hows the Song go . Teach your Children well ,their fathers Hell . and the Great one here Money is the root of all Evil . . your right but as you can see we ain't got none and they will take you away if you don't have any so lets not go there ok .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on February 16, 2009, 10:44:59 PM

Thanks gadgetmall

I verified and there's no short where you indicated, I took out the HV enable jumper and still getting the same voltage as the battery at the output so it's got to be the transistor.

On the other hand I modified another Fuji board as posted by josepino but added a 5 K pot and 68 pf cap in parallel with the pot and no problems lighting a 45 watt spiral, the kicker is it's a 2SD2504 transistor like on the other ???

Oh well thanks anyways, I'll try to find another transistor tomorrow.

BTW: My bulbs are all 120 VAC from Canada :)

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 16, 2009, 10:54:40 PM

Quote from: Goat on February 16, 2009, 10:44:59 PM
Thanks gadgetmall

I verified and there's no short where you indicated, I took out the HV enable jumper and still getting the same voltage as the battery at the output so it's got to be the transistor.

On the other hand I modified another Fuji board as posted by josepino but added a 5 K pot and 68 pf cap in parallel with the pot and no problems lighting a 45 watt spiral, the kicker is it's a 2SD2504 transistor like on the other ???

Oh well thanks anyways, I'll try to find another transistor tomorrow.

BTW: My bulbs are all 120 VAC from Canada :)

Regards,
Paul

thats great .thats exactly where the 68 cap is on my mod . across the two legs of the Vr . I did not explain the Hv circuit because the output comes from a different spot . and as i said in previous post it draws more current thats why i said don't use it . but if you do then the output is on the tiny transformer on top there is a trigger lead solder point . you can light other stuff from it .. and with one wire . you tanked it .. same thing as what mine is doing . Can you check the transistor . . if you pull it it will only read two ways out of six on the diode setting of the meter if its good . . I have not looked at his site . so i dont know what he did . anyways if your happy im happy .. Its a Mystry why it put out the battery voltage . My Eternal light is exactly as stated mod . It runs 11 hours . the other smaller cfl without the hvmod as i said runs 12.5 hours every time on the same battery i recharge . I got Some BIG BIG D CELL NI MH BATTERIES .they are very Heavy and put out 9000mah at 1.4 volts . HOT batteries .They will catch something on fire if they short out .. i am running the eternal light on that one and see how many days it will run .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 16, 2009, 10:59:53 PM

@gadget

There is about no chance that we evolved from monkeys or apes , I was more of a philosophic point, i was making. And yes 2 years ago i was a full blown atheist , but not anymore, Don't get confused there.But i don't blindly believe in any gods , but we did get conceived in some one image. So its complicated, but lets get ready for the new age !

There are so many things , we don't really get how deep the rabbit hole goes !

And that is not a movie.

We are on the same side mate !

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 16, 2009, 11:42:37 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 16, 2009, 10:59:53 PM
@gadget

There is about no chance that we evolved from monkeys or apes , I was more of a philosophic point, i was making. And yes 2 years ago i was a full blown atheist , but not anymore, Don't get confused there.But i don't blindly believe in any gods , but we did get conceived in some one image. So its complicated, but lets get ready for the new age !

There are so many things , we don't really get how deep the rabbit hole goes !

And that is not a movie.

We are on the same side mate !

Mark

Yes we are on the same side Mark and we Both are revolutionaries and can't Stand the System as it is .i Never did but you know we had to Conform a bit eventually like pay taxes and lade da :) Now look where we are . . I feel it commin too bro . lets get down to what we were workin on .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: AbbaRue on February 17, 2009, 01:05:35 AM

Thanks gadgetmall
I found the step by step instructions video on imhotep's website at:

http://d1190995.domaincentral.com.au/page3.html

I will post my results at the PC fan bedini link so as not the get this thread off topic.

Yes 10,000 pf is the same as 0.001 microfarads or 1 nanofarad.
But the point I wanted all to know is that the numbering system used on all little ceramic capacitors stands for pf.
The first 2 digits are the numberical value and the 3rd digit is the number of zeros.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 17, 2009, 02:53:45 AM

@ All:

Here are some pics of my latest coil light (cfl look alike) which now is smaller and uses two 265,000 mcd leds on each end. I think it looks pretty good and I am almost happy with it. Of course, I am driving it with a single AA on the toroid JT circuit. The tube is filled with just water for now.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 17, 2009, 02:55:31 AM

Here is one more pic with the tubes not lit and the room lights on.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 17, 2009, 03:18:56 AM

@Gadgetmall,
Rice and Salt and Pepper, for a meal, yes I been there and done that too. Even had just a cup of tea to keep going at times.

@ Mk1,
I see by your remarks your cat lives better than you do, I had a cat once, then my wife left (for health reasons) I went shopping for cat food, (for the cat), My shopping was for Tea, sugar and milk, and bickies, I got the Black and White brands, It cost me more the feed the moggy than me. yep I been there also, I still live like that at times, especially if I need to save up for something I really need, sides I could loose some weight. lol
But I help out those who ask me for help if it is possible for me to do so.

Gadgetmall is correct with the religion stuff Mk1, I got a riddle for you, (and others reading here), it goes like this, and it could not be answered except with the passage of time.

Revelation 17. v10
And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

I know who this "king" is, I will give you a clue, it is a prince born in 1948.
He can track his linage back to King David
He claims himself to be of the roman linage

This persons heraldy shield matches up "exactly" with Revelation ch13, v1- v2

Can I proove what I say? YES. The author [Tim Coen and a cup of tea] is just one source, there are many others.

Another clue, he has a throne, with a dragon on it. When he was crowned at 13 years of age.
Another clue, he said to his mother "I am worthy of your earthly worship" (when he was crowned "Prince" of Wales), he was NOT crowned as a king.

"Five are fallen" == 5 kings have died (past tense)
one is == uncrowned king is alive (present tense)
not yet come == not yet come (future tense)
he cometh == to arrive on the scene (future tense)

His 1st name means "man"
His "Name" and "Title", number is 666

He will suffer from a deadley wound, (his right eye and right arm) later on in Revelation it says, the deadley wound caused by a sword.
Ceremonial swords are all around this person, I say, he will have someone very closely associeated with him will try to do him in.

So who is this person? it is Prince "Charles", why does the Bible speak of the "Prince who is yet to come" because he does not have his own kingdom like all the previous in his lineage, (people think he will inherit the english throne, not so) but the Bible says he will be offered the 10 kingdoms, as a prince.

The names of these Kings that have fallen are of all the King Charles.

The Bible does not mention that this person will die, rather it states he will be thrown alive into hell.

Anyway, if anyone wants to google for prince charles shield or heraldic shield, then read Rev 13, and it matches it perfectly, along with all the other stuff he is associeated with.
There is not another person on earth who even remotesly comes close to a match up.

http://philologos.org/bpr/files/Misc_Studies/ms022.htm
http://www.fleurdelis.com/coatofarms.htm

http://www.cuttingedge.org/NEWS/n1678.cfm
http://www.despatch.cth.com.au/Despatch/Vol93_Charles_sustainable.htm

General Jim

Enough of this back to the Joul Thief.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gyulasun on February 17, 2009, 03:28:32 AM

Quote from: AbbaRue on February 17, 2009, 01:05:35 AM

Yes 10,000 pf is the same as 0.001 microfarads or 1 nanofarad.

Hi,

10,000 pF is not the same as you wrote. 10,000 pF is 0.01 microFarads or 10 nanoFarad, ok?

rgds, Gyula

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 17, 2009, 03:45:02 AM

@ Koen1:

About the high frequency noise from the Fuji circuit. Yes, I can hear it as well. It gets really wild when you put a good load on it. This was explained way back in our topic by Sparks I believe. Something about the wires in the transformer. I also get a high frequency noise once in a while from the toroid version as well. I spent 20 years as a professional drummer playing with various bands in clubs....it is a wonder I can hear anything now. At first, I thought the sound went away under load but, as Sparks pointed out, it just moved up into a frequency that I can no longer hear....probably somewhere north of 21,000 Hz.

@ MK1:

So, does this mean on your latest design you will be getting somewhere around 400 volts or so? If I read that right, that is incredible! That is about the same as a Fuji and, soon, you will be able to exceed even these numbers I would bet. Excellent work.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 17, 2009, 03:48:55 AM

@ Gadgetmall,
One of the nicest CFL setups I have seen so far well done.

@ bill,
I can make my torid give out its hi pitched screem just by disconnecting its output lead, seems it likes a load.

General Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 17, 2009, 04:03:09 AM

General Jim:

Ah, but like Sparks said, under load, it is really screaming but you can't hear it....too high in frequency. Makes sense to me. Hey!! Just had an idea for you. Maybe this could be your mouse answer. Hit them with high frequency sound and it will drive them nuts and they will move to another location. You could perfect the Joule Thief Mouse Eliminator. They sell devices in the stores that are supposed to get rid of rodents with high frequency sound so.....why not?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 17, 2009, 04:08:09 AM

@ All:

Before retiring to bed I just noticed we are about to cross the 3,000 post mark here. Not bad considering we started this topic less than 3 months ago. Congratulations to all and thank you to everyone that has contributed to our topic here. And, most of all, thanks to the experimenters.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 17, 2009, 05:20:14 AM

@electricme

Look at this, http://www.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,,5462671,00.jpg why a sheep,lol

there is also a rock under the throne , the most famous rock ever, some queen are in the way , i also live in a colony like you , well most of us are even those down south , the queen doesn't care much what we think as long has she get the money .

Even Bush is related to them. Also have a look at the masonic capital , quite a site on google map.

The 3 city , london, rome , washington.

In us we got the federal bank, in canada we have the federal Government , sounds familiar .

The history we know is crap.

The us did not win that many wars , they didn't win against the german's or the brits . Sorry guys !

Why would england fight there brothers , when 200 years before they got invaded by german's , and they took over the trone , and created windsor palace .

Nothing new here we have been at this for over 6000 years , only when the world will have a unique ruler , the pyramid will be complete.

Anyone not following ?

Those are some of the funny things , none speaks about.

foo fighters , its not a band .

Yes i am nuts

Talking about all this is illegal in some par of the world, but the age of pisces , is almost gone man will regain the ability to see the obvious .

The only way to win a war is to finance both sides.

@pirate

Yes this unity will be powerful 12 coils 2 of those gives me about 150 volts. I will have enough coils to get a feedback system going.

@ist

I was thinking about the fuji and you cap forced discharge , if you can make it happen really fast then trow it in the trigger coil , maybe a lower voltage value one cap to get a full cap fast.

Mark

300 pages 3000 post!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 17, 2009, 07:22:08 AM

@mk1

with the cap showen in my video i can run many 7w leds un modded from ramma ... i have hooked uo 4 befor all at full brightness..

yes i have found a bunch of smaller caps to play with i hope to finish my light sticks today i have 1 running it does power at full brightness from 1 aaa and a ramma solar light board .. im mounting it all in 1 unit

should be all done this this morn ...

alyways much to do ..

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 17, 2009, 07:30:10 AM

@all

Keep doing your good work.

@pirate

Fantastic idea! The water coil I mean.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 17, 2009, 08:15:43 AM

Here's a video Lidmotor did.

This is a replication of the coil and circuit I was woring on.

Great Job as all ways Lidmotor, thank you for making the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwIp3N9tqhA&feature=channel_page

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 17, 2009, 08:26:20 AM

@ bill,
I have a really beaut ultra high pitch plug in the wall device, geasshoppers don't like it, I held one up towards it once, he bent sideways at every screech of the output. I discovered then, that grasshoppers have hearing, I chucked him outside, don't worry he was still alive.

But a mouse, don't know if it will work, but it should in theory.
Good idea Bill, needs further looking into that one.
Mouses chewing bait off the traps, grrrr, waistin bait, didnt invite em to a kraft picnik lol

Wonder how Jeanna is going, bet she got the shoes off, feet up, sipping lemonade, reading handsel n grettel, kniitting and woundering to the point of worry, what we all been up to behind her back, ha ha, a bit like the bos is away and the workers doing their own thing.
Ittl take her a month to catch up reading all this stuff, can she speed read?
(Hello Jeanna).

@Mk1
ROCKS to em all.
Yep the muslems, go round and round a black stone in a square building in mekka.
The kings of england are enthroned on a chair with a rock hidden inside it.
When they wear a crown it has sparklie rocks in it.

Both systems musta been dreamed up by the same bloke, musta had rocks in his head.

I visited england in 93, went to the New Forrest, saw the stone where the arrow bounced off and struck a king in the eye, he died later on.
Stone the flaman crows, carnt get away from rocks lol

General Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 17, 2009, 08:37:06 AM

great video !!! 8)

im itching to play some big super caps lol .....

but today i wind my 1.25" green toroide .....

slayer way ... just plain and real simple ..

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 17, 2009, 08:49:15 AM

@all
we just got 3,000 replies, saw it as I went to post this cartoon.
Well done everyone, from General Jim

The Joule Thief Mouse Eliminator by the production of Hi cycle sounds ha ha.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on February 17, 2009, 09:43:49 AM

Does that work on mice?
I know it works on bugs and mosquitos... Those mozzie repellant
devices that you plug into the wall socket make a sound that is
in the vacinity of the pitch I'm hearing off that beeping transformer.
It makes a similar noise and is equally annoying. (I can't really
use those devices as they annoy me only slightly less than they
annoy the mosquitos ;))

Anyways, the CFL, like I said, it is a Philips "Tornado" CFL,
it has a spiral glass "tube", it says on the box that it uses 8W
at an AC of 220-240V and produces 500 lumen.
I used a hacksaw to get into the plastic base containing the electronics,
then carefully pried open the case untill I had the spiral tube cut
loose from its connectors on the pronted circuit board, and the pcb
loose from its connections to the lamp fitting.
When I hook two of the spiral tubes electrodes to the output of
one of my camera boards, it lights up. It does not light up the tube
to full brightness, but it is easily bright enough to read by.
It works just about as well as the fluorescent tube I played with before.

I am now tinkering with the pcb from the lamp as that too contains a
little transformer and a couple of capacitors, including a 400V 1.8uF one...
... perhaps I can rip some of the components off just like I did with the
camera board and end up with another wannabe-JT circuit? ;)

And I just gotta say

What the heck is going on with the Illuminati conspiracy theory there?
Charles of Wales a descendant of David as well as the Antichrist?
Have you seen the guy? He's got the charisma of a clamshell that man!
Whatever he does he always manages to make himself look stupid...
I really do not see him lead the world as any form of new messiah...
;)

regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 17, 2009, 09:54:50 AM

Quote from: slayer007 on February 17, 2009, 08:15:43 AM
Here's a video Lidmotor did.

This is a replication of the coil and circuit I was woring on.

Great Job as all ways Lidmotor, thank you for making the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwIp3N9tqhA&feature=channel_page

I saw the video but I could not catch the changes he made to the circuit. If you understood, Can you make those changes visible on this composition?

@electricme
Nice drawing general.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on February 17, 2009, 10:18:11 AM

@All new people
Hello! I saw a couple of first-JT creators while reading in a hurry. Great job guys!

@All
People, seriously, is the prideful bickering doing anyone any good? We are all here for the same thing: the most energy for the least input; or something along those lines. But to do that, we have to work together. To keep things scientific, things have to be replicated. Those of us that arenâ€™t very inventive still play a part by making sure that the work of others can be replicated. For those of us that arenâ€™t very experienced, replicating something still feels like quite an accomplishment. So, if people want to post about their accomplishments, so what? If you do not want to read it, scroll past it. It does not hurt you. If someone offers to sell something to help put food on his table and give a less experienced person a boost in their workings here, SO WHAT? If it is a relevant object to what we are doing and it helps someone in their work, then I see no issue. If you donâ€™t like it, scroll past their post. If you donâ€™t want to read their posts for any reason then scroll past it. Some of you act like you are being forced to read every single post.

I, for one, would like to see Gadget and Mark back on here, and anyone else who has left. Everyone is needed.

I am a newbie. I know very little about electrical engineering. But, trying to learn from replicating things I see on this thread had been very rewarding. Like, Bill, I have said that I would like to run my A/C from a JT or any other clean, free, etc. energy. I will not stop until I can. I couldnâ€™t care less if everyone on here gave me shit every time I post. Iâ€™m not on here for anyoneâ€™s approval. Iâ€™m here to learn, contribute what I can, and hopefully run my A/C from JT/free energy. So to those that have left recently, just keep in your mind what you came here for in the first place. We need every person!

And to those giving a hard time to people trying to sell the products of their labor, remember that they are probably in the US and it is not a good time to live here. People are broke, going broke, or will be broke. Some of us have to get money so we can survive and take care of our families. If that means selling circuit boards or science demo items made from recycling electronics(what I will do ASAP), then thatâ€™s what we have to do.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 17, 2009, 10:25:40 AM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on February 17, 2009, 09:54:50 AM
I saw the video but I could not catch the changes he made to the circuit. If you understood, Can you make those changes visible on this composition?

@electricme
Nice drawing general.

Jesus

The trigger 3055 was replaced with a 2n2222.

With a diode comming off the collector of 2n2222 allso.

Allso if you run the a HV line from the light to the collector of the 2n2222 it will allso get brighter.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 17, 2009, 10:41:19 AM

Quote from: slayer007 on February 17, 2009, 10:25:40 AM
The trigger 3055 was replaced with a 2n2222.

With a diode comming off the collector of 2n2222 allso.

Allso if you run the a HV line from the light to the collector of the 2n2222 it will allso get brighter.

Thank you @slayer007

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 17, 2009, 12:05:07 PM

1 assembled solar jt light stick kit

it works ok ... :)

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 17, 2009, 01:01:22 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 17, 2009, 02:53:45 AM
@ All:

Here are some pics of my latest coil light (cfl look alike) which now is smaller and uses two 265,000 mcd leds on each end. I think it looks pretty good and I am almost happy with it. Of course, I am driving it with a single AA on the toroid JT circuit. The tube is filled with just water for now.

Bill

Very Nice Liquid Light Jt . I would Buy one :)

Very Cool Ist . IST . I know it work a good.

thanks people . . Back to making Stuff from Stuff !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 17, 2009, 01:30:44 PM

well im on my green toroide 1.25" im winding the secondary first this will be a layered secondary just 1 wire 28gage i put 120 turns on the first layer

then i used super glue to secure it ... so it didnt get messed up 8)

im gonna wind back to the start with another 120 turns....

layer #2

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: greginthewoods on February 17, 2009, 02:49:55 PM

@All,

This is my first posting to this thread at this forum.
Heartfelt congratulations to all contributors on exceeding average posts >1000/month. A very active research group with significant developmental results. I also admire the group social self-regulation.
In my opinion, there is a fundamental thread undertone of curiosity and pure research; few are concerned with illusions of personal gain. There is an undertone of curioisty and rare alruistic research.

@Bill
Will you drop an email to say hi at Alternative Systems Research Fund (ASRF@bellsouth.net) so we can discuss some things without cluttering the forum? I think you may be interested or I wouldn't waste our time.

-Greg
Alternative Systems Research Fund
Culture's Edge, Inc. (501c3)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 17, 2009, 04:48:28 PM

@ist

Are those hot glue sticks?

@timmy

Don't worry , we are not going any anywhere ! I just needed to get things in perspective, So that the focus remains on the important stuff.

@greginthewoods

Thank you for your post.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 17, 2009, 04:55:46 PM

@all

Welcome to all people that are new on this thread!

@ist

You and @mk1 are the ones that have the record on toroids made!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 17, 2009, 04:56:29 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLNItTf9NrM&feature=channel_page

@ All:

Have a look at the above video. This fellow says that we can double the amount of back emf by using a few tricks. This may well apply to our research here. Check out his other videos as well because he explains how this works. See what you think and let me know. Thanks. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zP4dfxXhxxg&feature=channel This video, he charges 4 batteries with only 2 batteries.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 17, 2009, 05:02:26 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 17, 2009, 04:56:29 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLNItTf9NrM&feature=channel_page

@ All:

Have a look at the above video. This fellow says that we can double the amount of back emf by using a few tricks. This may well apply to our research here. Check out his other videos as well because he explains how this works. See what you think and let me know. Thanks.

Bill

I viewed the videos and they are very interesting. I got the answer I was looking for about the small pulse motor as a trigger.
It is related to the Joule thief because it uses a AA battery and a transformer to charge batteries. By the way the joule thief coil is a transformer.

I may be wrong though.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 17, 2009, 05:09:53 PM

@ mk1 nope till spools ... the picture sux they are way brighter the batt must be dead ..

mk1 i have for you a job .... contact me ... ASAP

HEARS AN IDEA OF THE JOB...... LEDS LIGHT A BIG AND AS MANY AS YOU CAN 8) 8) 8)

FROM AS LEAST AS POSSIBLE TOROIDES ONLY CAM UNITS DONT COUNT!!!!! ;D

I HAVE A BUYER ;)

whos keeping track any ways :) jesus :)

i have a verry nice green ring wound ..... :) 600 turn secondary 5 layers 120 turns 28 ga each .. 7 turn 22ga primary / trigger jt

i made pics of all layers

i will wind a mk2 pickup feedback coil ....

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 17, 2009, 05:13:10 PM

@jesus

Yes it looks like it , but usually a transformer doesn't have a saturable core but the jt dose, that is the reason i think about mag amp, they are wired the same but the core makes the difference,

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 17, 2009, 05:18:06 PM

@ist

I really don't have the money now , to buy the leds, I can light any number you need .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 17, 2009, 05:39:17 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 17, 2009, 04:56:29 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLNItTf9NrM&feature=channel_page

@ All:

Have a look at the above video. This fellow says that we can double the amount of back emf by using a few tricks. This may well apply to our research here. Check out his other videos as well because he explains how this works. See what you think and let me know. Thanks. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zP4dfxXhxxg&feature=channel This video, he charges 4 batteries with only 2 batteries.

Bill

Hello Bill

It looks like he is collecting the negative BEMF allso.
It can be done with the JT allso.

Just turning a diode around on the 2222 transistor with the circuit I'm using.

You can hook your meter or leds or what ever to the backwards diode.
then you can connect it to the negative side or positive side of your source battery.

That way you can collect the positive BEMF and allso the negative BEMF.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 17, 2009, 07:35:17 PM

Quote from: slayer007 on February 17, 2009, 05:39:17 PM

Hello Bill

It looks like he is collecting the negative BEMF allso.
It can be done with the JT allso.

Just turning a diode around on the 2222 transistor with the circuit I'm using.

You can hook your meter or leds or what ever to the backwards diode.
then you can connect it to the negative side or positive side of your source battery.

That way you can collect the positive BEMF and also the negative BEMF.

Hello Slater . I know what you are talking about but could you post your schemitic with the double BEMF for others to Follow . The Search on the site is Not very User Friendly when it comes to searching for post with attachments..Thanks . Greta job on that 480 primary . i bet you double that and you can loose the darlington .
Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 17, 2009, 07:46:02 PM

jt 600 turn secondary wound with mk2 feedback wind 22 ga

done

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 17, 2009, 08:02:45 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lu8uygSM9XM

@ all:

Above is a link to a video I made on the JT Coil Light. I tried an experiment while making this video. Since I have a good supply of the 3904 transistors, I decided to up the input power to see if it can take it. I used 3 AAA bats to drive the jt toroid circuit and the output light is very very good. Better than it shows up on the camera even though it looks pretty good there too. So, it did not hurt the transistor or anything at all.

I know I can use an MK1 style toroid to achieve even better results using an AA battery, but I just want to see if the transistor would handle a bit more input power....and it seemed to.

@ IST:

Very nicely wound man.!!!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 17, 2009, 08:16:53 PM

nice video bill :)

thanks for the complement :)

im just whipping up a solar supply useing a ramma solar light unit but i bought some aa solder on batteries a while ago just dugg em up

i will use 1 of those and 2 solar chargers ... for a supply jt to power this 600 turn unit ... ;D the battery im useing SAYS AVALANCHE!!!! LOL NI-MH AA1600MAH 1.2V

SHOULD MAKE A GOOD SUPPLY

ist

this one shouldnt take long ... 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 17, 2009, 08:23:53 PM

@ slayer007

Congratulations. I think you are the first to light a CFL from a 1.5 volt AA battery using a transformer you made yourself. I made a schematic that I hope is correct.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 17, 2009, 08:39:19 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 17, 2009, 08:02:45 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lu8uygSM9XM

@ all:

Above is a link to a video I made on the JT Coil Light. I tried an experiment while making this video. Since I have a good supply of the 3904 transistors, I decided to up the input power to see if it can take it. I used 3 AAA bats to drive the jt toroid circuit and the output light is very very good. Better than it shows up on the camera even though it looks pretty good there too. So, it did not hurt the transistor or anything at all.

I know I can use an MK1 style toroid to achieve even better results using an AA battery, but I just want to see if the transistor would handle a bit more input power....and it seemed to.

@ IST:

Very nicely wound man.!!!

Bill

NICE ~~~ . I know this is a Stupid question but How did you get the plastic tube to Stay in a Coil ? Was it already a Coil ?
@ist . Good and Tight . i tried the Hv cap on Fugi JT no go also tried dc cap It makes the lamp dimmer.I think i have it at its best current draw with a cfl . 12 ma

@all for the new comers that don't want to read the entire Book and go straight to a Quick Guide . Here is one improvement we have made to a normal Jt . circuit total input is .81 ma and runs 4 Leds for months on a dead aa,aaa,c or d . Circuit is designed to run on less than 1 ma . I have this one still running since it was built . There are many more Circuits in the threads that are Very Good . Try them all !!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 17, 2009, 08:59:30 PM

Quote from: xee2 on February 17, 2009, 08:23:53 PM
@ slayer007

Congratulations. I think you are the first to light a CFL from a 1.5 volt AA battery using a transformer you made yourself. I made a schematic that I hope is correct.

Thank you Xee2

Yes that looks correct,You could allso put a couple diodes on the transistors to pick up the back EMF from the JT.
To light more lights or charge extra batterys.

@ Bill Very Cool Idea I like that.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 17, 2009, 09:16:24 PM

Quote from: xee2 on February 17, 2009, 08:23:53 PM
@ slayer007

Congratulations. I think you are the first to light a CFL from a 1.5 volt AA battery using a transformer you made yourself. I made a schematic that I hope is correct.

Yes i would have thought the Two Diodes would go to the Bases one one way the other the other way .. May not work on this circuit needs to be a two transistor astable i think to get BEMF from two different directions .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 17, 2009, 09:41:47 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on February 17, 2009, 09:16:24 PM
Yes i would have thought the Two Diodes would go to the Bases one one way the other the other way .. May not work on this circuit needs to be a two transistor astable i think to get BEMF from two different directions .

The backwards one will work off the emitter of the 2n2222 it will allso work off the base.
Going off the emitter is 6v going off the base is 9v.
This is off a 1.5v AA.

For the positive there both going back to negative source.

Then you can pick up the positive back emf off the collector of the 2n3055

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 17, 2009, 10:54:38 PM

@Slayer007
I'm going to make a start on replicating your JT today, this looks like it may have great possibilities.
Welll done slayer.

@all
A couple of weeks ago I mentioned about my solar powered shed light.
On Monday I went and bought another two of them.
The solar cell puts out 7.93 volts O/C (open circuit, no load) in almost bright sunlight.
Connected to Battery, it reads charging at 4.01volts at .2 amp

This is pritty good.
If I get one more unit I could make up a 12v solar cell to keep my 12v battery bank "topped" up.

After dismantling the whole unit I found the wire leads out from the solar panel had almost no lead restraint, one good toug and the wire would pull out of the solar connection point, so I added some "contact" cement to this lead.

General Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on February 17, 2009, 11:16:23 PM

@ All

I can see this thread progressing towards solar for recharging the battery during the day and running lights at night to state the obvious, that's why we need lights :)

If we make the best JT or other mod work to recharge more than one AA battery during the day depending on how big a solar panel we have then that's many more batteries and lights at night :)

Another thought that came to my mind earlier, (And please don't try this) is to take a battery and inverter and put that through the JT toroid instead of the transistor circuit, keep in mind I'm talking about a small 12 V battery and a small inverter ;D

Just throwing a few ideas out there.

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 17, 2009, 11:46:05 PM

@ Gadgetmall:

Ah, you asked the million dollar question. This tubing is just clear plastic stuff that comes on a roll. OK, I took an old tomato sauce can and wound the tubing around that. No, it does not want to stay, so, I took some superglue and spot welded the coil joints and let them dry. (a small drop in a few key places just to hold its shape) Then, I could let go of the can and add some more superglue along the joints. Once it all dries, and this takes a while but that is fine as I didn't have to hold it any longer, I just unscrewed it from the can and.....there it is. Not very high tech but, it works. I made it up as I went along. Very easy and cheap to replicate if anyone wants to.

Thanks to all for the compliments on my latest video. I really appreciate it.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 18, 2009, 01:28:24 AM

Has anyone tried this without a ferrite core - perhaps a metal washer or a rod instead?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 18, 2009, 02:18:10 AM

@ jadaro2600:

Yes, MK1, and others, have used powdered iron cores and proved, at least to my satisfaction, that ferrite is not required. His comments on this are listed....well....somewhere back in the many posts we have here. I even think someone made an air core that also worked, but I cannot recall who or any details. To me, with what I know about the JT circuit, I think it is all about matching the core and the transistor and the resistance to achieve maximum output. A balance of all of the variables.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 18, 2009, 04:24:49 AM

@Bill
I'm stuck

I just noticed your comment about balancing the core to all the other variables,I stuck on knowing how to tune the core so to speak, any ideas.

General Jim

I got 2 green cores unwound, thought I would have had them wound by now, there was black glue substance in them, it held me up.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 18, 2009, 04:49:21 AM

General Jim:

This is a question better answered by either Gadgetmall or MK1. I have watched their work and came to the conclusion that if you change wire size, as in smaller diameter, then you need less resistance because the smaller wire has more than larger wire. The core material changes the equation as well. At first, I thought we needed ferrite but MK1 used powdered iron and said he got better results with it. (I believe your green toroids are powdered iron) Same with changing the transistors....a different one of different value will require more/less resistance in the circuit. Now, you know I never claim to be an expert on any of this stuff but I have been paying attention and this is what I believe to be correct. These guys here can give you a more exact response but I think it is clear that the variable resistor, or resistors, is the key to being able to adjust for the other factors in the circuit.

Also, you really should not post a picture of my ex-wife like that. She might get upset and get mad. Ha ha!!!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on February 18, 2009, 08:14:55 AM

Quote from: slayer007 on February 17, 2009, 09:41:47 PM
The backwards one will work off the emitter of the 2n2222 it will allso work off the base.
Going off the emitter is 6v going off the base is 9v.
This is off a 1.5v AA.

For the positive there both going back to negative source.

Then you can pick up the positive back emf off the collector of the 2n3055

@Slayer
Can you post a drawing of what you are talking about for the less experienced among us, such as myself ;D
I have got to try this BEMF stuff.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on February 18, 2009, 08:25:09 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 17, 2009, 04:56:29 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLNItTf9NrM&feature=channel_page

@ All:

Have a look at the above video. This fellow says that we can double the amount of back emf by using a few tricks. This may well apply to our research here. Check out his other videos as well because he explains how this works. See what you think and let me know. Thanks. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zP4dfxXhxxg&feature=channel This video, he charges 4 batteries with only 2 batteries.

Bill

That was cool!

I have taken what I thought were a bunch of transformers off of a PC power supply and tried to replicate this first video. Well, I attached my meter to the other side. Anyway, no matter where I connected the battery or meter, I couldn't get any kind of reading. These are small transformers too. I thought those would work on a AA battery. Here are the pics of the power supply boards again.Are these big yellow squares transformers? What about the big green one? The green one has 4 pins on one side and 3 pins on the other side. They are equally spaced and I could not find any kind of transformer drawing with the 4 to 3 like that where the 3 were equally spaced. I haven't tried the BIG yellow one yet. But, even then, I don't know how to hook them up properly. I want to try the BEMF from that first video! That was just too cool!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 18, 2009, 08:56:58 AM

Quote from: timmy1729 on February 18, 2009, 08:14:55 AM
@Slayer
Can you post a drawing of what you are talking about for the less experienced among us, such as myself ;D
I have got to try this BEMF stuff.

Here's a drawing Xee2 redrew I penciled in a few spots where your can pick up BEMF.

The negative BEMF you can eather go back to negative or positive of the source battery for the BEMF positive.

For the positive BEMF you can do the same I like to go back to negative of the source battery.

This can allso be done with rectifiers instead of diodes.
I think with rectifiers you even get better results.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on February 18, 2009, 09:58:55 AM

@Timmy: yes, those yellow things and the green one too are transformers.
Not sure how you hooked up your meter there, but if you fed a steady DC
into them it may well be that you didn't measure much on the output side,
as typically induction in trafos happens when the current builds or drops
and when the magnetic field builds up or collapses, but not really when a
steady current maintains a magnetic field. Generally trafos work with pulses
or alternating currents. I may be telling you stuff you already know and if so
then forget about what I said just now, I'm not trying to act smart, I'm just
trying to think along with you there on why you didn't get a reading on the secondary.

By the way, I see a couple of really nice looking ring cores there too,
should be usefull in winding your own JT coils if you're going for that :)

@slayer: thanks for pointing out that suggested bemf connection.
So, if I'm folowing you, you're just saying connect the positive bemf feed to either the circuit positive or the battery negative,
and connect the negative bemf feed to either the circuit negative or the battery positive ???
And again, not to be a smartass, but doesn't a rectifier consist of diodes?

regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on February 18, 2009, 10:08:17 AM

Quote from: slayer007 on February 18, 2009, 08:56:58 AM
Here's a drawing Xee2 redrew I penciled in a few spots where your can pick up BEMF.

The negative BEMF you can eather go back to negative or positive of the source battery for the BEMF positive.

For the positive BEMF you can do the same I like to go back to negative of the source battery.

This can allso be done with rectifiers instead of diodes.
I think with rectifiers you even get better results.

@Slayer
What size toroid and what gauge wire did you use to be able to fit 480 turns?

@All
I just got seven 48â€ Fluoro tubes last night along with a light fixture that looks like it holds four and it has the power module and wiring still in itâ€¦ FOR FREE! And she said they were still supposed to work because they were unused. We will see.

If you want to get free stuff and help keep stuff out of landfills and youâ€™re in the US(I donâ€™t know about other countries) check out Freecycle on Yahoo!. People post stuff that they donâ€™t want anymore and, rather than send it in the garbage truck to a landfill, they give it away. The rule that everyone accepts is that what you post has to be outright free. No money, no trading. I found those lights using Freecycle. I also found an old vcr, old tvâ€™s and junk bicycles that Iâ€™m going to pick up through other people. Iâ€™m going to use the bicycle wheels to wind pancake coils to experiment with Teslaâ€™s radiant energy ideas and wireless electricity. Iâ€™m going to try and copy the Peter Lindemann videos from Google Video. Either that or use them to make a simple lathe to wind a secondary coil for a Tesla Coil. Iâ€™m going to use the pedal and gears to make hand-crank AC generators. You can also post stuff that you want too. For those of us without money, it is the only way to get materials to use for experimentation. Itâ€™s amazing how many people would rather give stuff away for free than send it to a dump. Save the planet and get free stuff or give your junk a good home! Everybody wins ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 18, 2009, 10:26:55 AM

Quote from: Koen1 on February 18, 2009, 09:58:55 AM
@Timmy: yes, those yellow things and the green one too are transformers.
Not sure how you hooked up your meter there, but if you fed a steady DC
into them it may well be that you didn't measure much on the output side,
as typically induction in trafos happens when the current builds or drops
and when the magnetic field builds up or collapses, but not really when a
steady current maintains a magnetic field. Generally trafos work with pulses
or alternating currents. I may be telling you stuff you already know and if so
then forget about what I said just now, I'm not trying to act smart, I'm just
trying to think along with you there on why you didn't get a reading on the secondary.

By the way, I see a couple of really nice looking ring cores there too,
should be usefull in winding your own JT coils if you're going for that :)

@slayer: thanks for pointing out that suggested bemf connection.
So, if I'm folowing you, you're just saying connect the positive bemf feed to either the circuit positive or the battery negative,
and connect the negative bemf feed to either the circuit negative or the battery positive ???
And again, not to be a smartass, but doesn't a rectifier consist of diodes?

regards,
Koen

Your right rectifers are just diodes.
But going from emitter to collector on the 3055 with a diode I get 8v using a rectifier I get 15v.
All most twice as much voltage.

As for the voltage on the 2222 theres not much there but every little bit helps.

"if I'm folowing you, you're just saying connect the positive bemf feed to either the circuit positive or the battery negative,
and connect the negative bemf feed to either the circuit negative or the battery positive ???"

For eather the the + or - emf you can go back to eather the battery - or battery +.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 18, 2009, 10:31:34 AM

Quote from: timmy1729 on February 18, 2009, 10:08:17 AM
@Slayer
What size toroid and what gauge wire did you use to be able to fit 480 turns?

@All
I just got seven 48â€ Fluoro tubes last night along with a light fixture that looks like it holds four and it has the power module and wiring still in itâ€¦ FOR FREE! And she said they were still supposed to work because they were unused. We will see.

If you want to get free stuff and help keep stuff out of landfills and youâ€™re in the US(I donâ€™t know about other countries) check out Freecycle on Yahoo!. People post stuff that they donâ€™t want anymore and, rather than send it in the garbage truck to a landfill, they give it away. The rule that everyone accepts is that what you post has to be outright free. No money, no trading. I found those lights using Freecycle. I also found an old vcr, old tvâ€™s and junk bicycles that Iâ€™m going to pick up through other people. Iâ€™m going to use the bicycle wheels to wind pancake coils to experiment with Teslaâ€™s radiant energy ideas and wireless electricity. Iâ€™m going to try and copy the Peter Lindemann videos from Google Video. Either that or use them to make a simple lathe to wind a secondary coil for a Tesla Coil. Iâ€™m going to use the pedal and gears to make hand-crank AC generators. You can also post stuff that you want too. For those of us without money, it is the only way to get materials to use for experimentation. Itâ€™s amazing how many people would rather give stuff away for free than send it to a dump. Save the planet and get free stuff or give your junk a good home! Everybody wins ;D

The toroid is a 2" ferrite I bought it off ebay.

The wire I used is 23ga. for both the JT and pickup coil.

Smaller wire and more windings would have been better for the pickup coil.
At least for lighting a CFL.
But I'm just using what I have around.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 18, 2009, 10:39:11 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 17, 2009, 05:13:10 PM
@jesus

Yes it looks like it , but usually a transformer doesn't have a saturable core but the jt dose, that is the reason i think about mag amp, they are wired the same but the core makes the difference,

Mark

Thank you @mk1 !

I made a toroid coil with an aluminum covered cable taken from a discarded computer monitor.
I wounded 16 turns of that covered wire that has a bare wire and a light blue covered wire running together and the cable is wrapped in aluminum foil and a clear plastic foil.

I connected it to the pulse motor and it run!
I put a 1.5v battery to the collector output via a diode and the battery gets charged.

That is a normal jt charger.

But the thing is that with the motor stopped the running battery does not discharge while charging the other battery.

So the discovery is that with a covered cable like that used on computer monitor cables make the toroid coil special.

The cable number is AWM E101344 style 2990. It has inside about 9 different cables.

Just check on it.

@ist

Yes I am following this thread!

@pirate

That light was brighter than the cfl that you lighted before!
You can do as @ist and make a light kit to sell. The plastic tube is mailed empty with a joule thief and two leds.

@ist can supply the toroids already winded. He is good at that. Also there is @mk1.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on February 18, 2009, 12:21:18 PM

Quote from: electricme on February 18, 2009, 04:24:49 AM
@Bill
I'm stuck

I just noticed your comment about balancing the core to all the other variables,I stuck on knowing how to tune the core so to speak, any ideas.

General Jim

I got 2 green cores unwound, thought I would have had them wound by now, there was black glue substance in them, it held me up.

@ electricme

Take a look at the section entitled "Some tips on getting it running" on this site http://cappels.org/dproj/ledpage/leddrv.htm#Rusty_Nail_Night_Light

Bob Parrott had sent in a drawing to explain how he tweaked his JT setup to draw less amps much the same way as was shown earlier on this thread by gadgetmall.

As Pirate mentioned, there are several core materials that can be used, from an old rusty nail to air core :)

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on February 18, 2009, 12:47:12 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 17, 2009, 04:56:29 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLNItTf9NrM&feature=channel_page

@ All:

Have a look at the above video. This fellow says that we can double the amount of back emf by using a few tricks. This may well apply to our research here. Check out his other videos as well because he explains how this works. See what you think and let me know. Thanks. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zP4dfxXhxxg&feature=channel This video, he charges 4 batteries with only 2 batteries.

Bill

Can anyone tell me what kind of motor he is using in the video?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on February 18, 2009, 12:52:36 PM

Quote from: Koen1 on February 18, 2009, 09:58:55 AM
@Timmy: yes, those yellow things and the green one too are transformers.
Not sure how you hooked up your meter there, but if you fed a steady DC
into them it may well be that you didn't measure much on the output side,
as typically induction in trafos happens when the current builds or drops
and when the magnetic field builds up or collapses, but not really when a
steady current maintains a magnetic field. Generally trafos work with pulses
or alternating currents. I may be telling you stuff you already know and if so
then forget about what I said just now, I'm not trying to act smart, I'm just
trying to think along with you there on why you didn't get a reading on the secondary.

By the way, I see a couple of really nice looking ring cores there too,
should be usefull in winding your own JT coils if you're going for that :)

@slayer: thanks for pointing out that suggested bemf connection.
So, if I'm folowing you, you're just saying connect the positive bemf feed to either the circuit positive or the battery negative,
and connect the negative bemf feed to either the circuit negative or the battery positive ???
And again, not to be a smartass, but doesn't a rectifier consist of diodes?

regards,
Koen

@Koen
So, what power source should I use to try this out? I've got AA and D batteries. He only used a battery in his first video. Should I try hooking wires to the collector and emitter on my JT and then hooking them to the transformer? So, really, what should I use to try this?

Oh, when giving an answer; when in doubt, Timmy does NOT know it ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on February 18, 2009, 01:42:39 PM

Well if you mean you want to test the transformers,
you could produce pulses crudely by connecting only
one of the wires from the battery to the trafo primary,
and tapping the other primary wire to the battery terminal...
That should create a little pulse of DC every time you
tap the wire on the battery, and every pulse should
be transformed into output on the secondary. That way
you can check what volts (and amps) the output is
with your given input.
Of course this depends on the ratio of the transformer
(primary vs secondary that is), and this plus the wire
resistance determines the minimum DC voltage feed.
I would say first do this with your weakest battery, see what
readings you get, if this is not clear enough then take a
larger battery.
Seeing how one can easily produce several hundred volts using a
small transformer and an AA battery, I would rather be safe than
sorry, and use the weakest battery first. Unless you really don't
mind getting a couple of hundred volts jolt your fingers, then
I'd say use any battery you've got. ;)

I'm not sure what exactly you're planning here... I thought you just wanted
to see what the transformer ratio was, in other words, what the output
of the trafo is at a given input.
But now it seems you want to use your JT as power source and feed the
transformer from that?
Well I suppose that may work so I'd say try it :)
I'm not sure, I think there may be a matter of the trafo interacting with the
JT core or some resonant effects that may influence the function, but
to be honest I think guys like Gadgetmall, MK1, Sparks, Slayer, etc can
tell us more about that than I can tell you. :)

regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 18, 2009, 01:54:08 PM

Quote from: timmy1729 on February 18, 2009, 12:52:36 PM
@Koen
So, what power source should I use to try this out? I've got AA and D batteries. He only used a battery in his first video. Should I try hooking wires to the collector and emitter on my JT and then hooking them to the transformer? So, really, what should I use to try this?

Oh, when giving an answer; when in doubt, Timmy does NOT know it ;D

Just a couple post I posted how I was getting twice the voltage comming off the emittor and collector of the 3055 on my JT.
By using a rectifier instead od a diode.
Mabe the recitier is picking up the voltage both way. ??? Any ideas

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on February 18, 2009, 02:14:12 PM

Quote from: Koen1 on February 18, 2009, 01:42:39 PM
Well if you mean you want to test the transformers,
you could produce pulses crudely by connecting only
one of the wires from the battery to the trafo primary,
and tapping the other primary wire to the battery terminal...
That should create a little pulse of DC every time you
tap the wire on the battery, and every pulse should
be transformed into output on the secondary. That way
you can check what volts (and amps) the output is
with your given input.
Of course this depends on the ratio of the transformer
(primary vs secondary that is), and this plus the wire
resistance determines the minimum DC voltage feed.
I would say first do this with your weakest battery, see what
readings you get, if this is not clear enough then take a
larger battery.
Seeing how one can easily produce several hundred volts using a
small transformer and an AA battery, I would rather be safe than
sorry, and use the weakest battery first. Unless you really don't
mind getting a couple of hundred volts jolt your fingers, then
I'd say use any battery you've got. ;)

I'm not sure what exactly you're planning here... I thought you just wanted
to see what the transformer ratio was, in other words, what the output
of the trafo is at a given input.
But now it seems you want to use your JT as power source and feed the
transformer from that?
Well I suppose that may work so I'd say try it :)
I'm not sure, I think there may be a matter of the trafo interacting with the
JT core or some resonant effects that may influence the function, but
to be honest I think guys like Gadgetmall, MK1, Sparks, Slayer, etc can
tell us more about that than I can tell you. :)

regards,
Koen

No, I was simply asking how to get enough juice through the transformer so I can use my meter. The JT was just a wild idea meant to show my confusion ;D I wasn't serious, but I will try it since Slayer got more voltage from doing that. I was thinking that the transistor creates pulses. I don't know if that is me misunderstanding what is going on or not.

Does anyone have any idea what motor he was using in his other two videos? If it is in something I have at home I will use that. If not, I am going shopping later anyway.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 18, 2009, 03:03:07 PM

well i frired up my little green GEM LOL

it works well from 1.5 v squeels up a storm .. im getting 11vac x2 mk2 feedbacks .... im powering the led on the transistor as normal

and my secondary reads 170vac .... all with out any diodes ..... just the 1 super blue wich is extreamly bright that is on the jt unit out put ..

verry verry freq sencitive .... also when you remove the led on the jt the freq drops ... so does the output .... might try a few diffrent leds to see how the FREQS CHANGE THE OPERATION OF THE RING ;)

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 18, 2009, 03:47:05 PM

@ IST:

That is interesting, to say the least. One thing, since you have the led on the transistor, it is still a diode remember, and it is influencing your circuit probably the same as if you put a regular diode of the same value in its place. What do you think?I am making a sort of semi-educated guess here, I don't pretend to know any of this for sure.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 18, 2009, 04:06:18 PM

@ slayer007

Quote from: slayer007 on February 18, 2009, 01:54:08 PM
Mabe the recitier is picking up the voltage both way. ??? Any ideas

Standard voltmeters do not read correctly for anything other than DC and perfect sine waves. For non-sinewave AC or pulsed voltages it is best to use a scope. But the following circuits can be used if no scope is available to read the peak voltages. You might want to check the peak positive and negative voltages you are getting. Note that the only difference between the positive peak detector and the negative peak detector is that the diode is reversed. So the same circuit can be used, just reverse the diode.

EDIT: a full wave rectifier usually produces 1/2 the peak to peak voltage.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 18, 2009, 04:46:43 PM

@electricme

Tuning , first tuning the jt coil for the core. First i will tell you why a made a mk1 style instead of a slayer type , witch i tested back in December. I made one exactly like slayer but made some test, what i did is make a pickup coil 3 turn and rectified it then a moved it at different spot and saw close to the jt coil all was working fine but when the coil is a the middle point the voltage drops really badly, that is why i built mine with 2 coil at 180 , that resolved that issue .

Now tuning a jt coil , first make pickup coil then rectify it , also replace the resistor with a trimpot or pot, then try one turn jt coil
play with the pot get the voltage has high as you can. then ad one turn re tune the pot , do this until your pickup coil start getting a lower voltage ( remember to tune the resistor every time) , so finding the spot where the pickup coil starts losing power , and stay with the one the give you more output on the pickup side. This will make sure that the core is tuned. Why because the ration between the jt coil and the pickup coil will effect the output voltage , so if your jt has to many turns the pickup coil is giving a lower voltage.

After that , remove the pickup coil and replace that one with any numbers of coil , re tune the base resistor , there is a spot where it get higher its a exact spot , when tuning it the voltage goes up , all the way to that point then drops down real fast
so try to find the highs spot . Then you will have a tune jt coil and toroid, the coil makes sure the toroid has just the right amount of inductance and the circuit is switching at the best freq for the toroid.

To many jt turns lowers the output of the pickup coil by changing the ratio.

The resistor is to make sure that the jt coil switch at the best freq for the core.

When changing the battery voltage , the resistor (trimpot ) need adjustment to keep it in operating range .

Mark

I hope this helps

Also , many layer , the first 2 are the best after that they go down a bit.
This is not a issue if you want to run a cfl , since it doesn't need much amp , just high voltage.

This is the reason for my different design and using a bigger wire and less layer.

When the jt has a led in its regular place , it changes the freq so , most of the time i get 1/3 of the secondary voltage.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: RAF on February 18, 2009, 04:49:02 PM

ï»¿Just a hello to all. Finally caught up on the reading in this tread WOW!!!!!

I was intrigued to this tread when i saw Lidmotorâ€™s post on the JT Resonance Effects For
Everyone To Share . Then saw Pirateâ€™s lighting 400 ledâ€™s

Jumped out of my chair, ran to the one and only Fugi camera in the house and tore it apart.
After trying to decipher the circuit found Jose Pino's site and proceeded to de-solder parts off the
board. Anyway hooked up a modified CFL pushed in the battery!!!! arms, Fugi board and CFL
went flying through the air. After modifying another CFL and carefully putting the battery in I
had some great light.

I normally do not join the treads and reply, and do not have anything to contribute as yet.
But as you all know there are a lot of us out here following, doing and learning as we go.
So a hardy THANK YOU ALL and who knows maybe Iâ€™ll come up with an idea to share with
you.

I truly believe that manâ€™s salvation is when we learn to understand one and other and share that
knowledge . However as bad as it is! â€œand this scares meâ€ it will probably get worse before
most learn to understand.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 18, 2009, 05:09:36 PM

Quote from: RAF on February 18, 2009, 04:49:02 PM
ï»¿Just a hello to all. Finally caught up on the reading in this tread WOW!!!!!

I was intrigued to this tread when i saw Lidmotorâ€™s post on the JT Resonance Effects For
Everyone To Share . Then saw Pirateâ€™s lighting 400 ledâ€™s

Jumped out of my chair, ran to the one and only Fugi camera in the house and tore it apart.
After trying to decipher the circuit found Jose Pino's site and proceeded to de-solder parts off the
board. Anyway hooked up a modified CFL pushed in the battery!!!! arms, Fugi board and CFL
went flying through the air. After modifying another CFL and carefully putting the battery in I
had some great light.

I normally do not join the treads and reply, and do not have anything to contribute as yet.
But as you all know there are a lot of us out here following, doing and learning as we go.
So a hardy THANK YOU ALL and who knows maybe Iâ€™ll come up with an idea to share with
you.

I truly believe that manâ€™s salvation is when we learn to understand one and other and share that
knowledge . However as bad as it is! â€œand this scares meâ€ it will probably get worse before
most learn to understand.

Hi , RAF , welcome , you did good registering, you get a chance to ask question and increase your chances to get it before its to late, and yes i am sure that there are many of you guise out there.

Mark

You out there , come join , we are all needed !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 18, 2009, 05:11:10 PM

@ RAF:

Thank you and welcome to our group here. Good job on your Fuji. Please feel free to contribute anything that you think someone might find interesting. This is a good friendly and helpful group of folks here and the more of us, the merrier.
Welcome.

@MK1:

Thank you for your tuning explanation to General Jim. That was very concise and informative. (I am printing it out to save) You explained it so well that I think that even I understand, ha ha. That is great information for our group to have, thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 18, 2009, 05:49:58 PM

still playing the the green unit .... i have it liteing the led on the jt i then put a full wave bridge rectifier there i made from 4002 diodes

so it lights the led i read 1.95 vdc off the bridge

i have a led across the secondary .... it is lit ..... i also have a led across the feed back winding it also lites ...

i added a magnet too it adds more to it .... and when at the right distance i notice a big jump on the bridge ... im building more bridges for all other coils ...

ist

here is a pic

now i cant stop blowing leds on my secondary with leds lit on other coils

i took another pic for you guys .... i added a neon it is lit too and my recharge voltage went up now it is 3.5vdc feed back out got brighter

jt led went dimmer ... ;D ;D :o

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: RAF on February 18, 2009, 06:14:19 PM

ï»¿@ Timmy1729

Does anyone have any idea what motor he was using in his other two videos? If it is in something
I have at home I will use that. If not, I am going shopping later anyway.

Tried this a while back it is a dc motor with one of its armature pickups broken off.
This causes a dead spot in the armature windings, and gives a pulsing affect of the current from
the battery.

â€œNote when i did this i used a unmodified dc motor â€œ so maybe the pulsing has some thing to add
to the setup.

Hope this is what you wanted to know. If so i would use a dc motor i had laying around rather
than buy a good new one

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 18, 2009, 07:23:55 PM

well looks good i just added the last led

on the 2nd feed back coil ... it lites aswell all are lit and i have rectified 1.5vdc off jt side ... i need to make new bridges i will make 4 of them

jt side it will be 4001 diodes hv side secondary will be 4007 diodes feed back coils will be 4002 doides for a total of 16 diodes

i will add a picture when it is finished and see if i can find enough meters to tap all outputs to get voltages ...

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 18, 2009, 08:04:41 PM

Quote from: slayer007 on February 17, 2009, 09:41:47 PM
The backwards one will work off the emitter of the 2n2222 it will allso work off the base.
Going off the emitter is 6v going off the base is 9v.
This is off a 1.5v AA.

For the positive there both going back to negative source.

Then you can pick up the positive back emf off the collector of the 2n3055

You know i thought about this and i am pretty sure the guy is wrong . ..at least in his battery / transformer example . you see a transformer works normally with induction so when he connects the battery the normal job of the transformer is done ,this is not BEMF or BACK ELECTRO MOTIVE FORCE . ITS induction . BUT when he releases the battery ONE BEMF pulse that is normally wasted is release and its only one polarity.the oppisite of the original induced pulse . It is much higher than the first induced voltage .That is why Bedini uses a Diode and he is the one who patented the Idea Of capturing the idea of BEMF ( Its really TIME) with a Diode .He used the term BEMF to get the Patent . there is much more to that pulse than just higher voltage . this would only apply to his primary /secondary demo with the two leds . Now if you wound a trifilar coil with two secondaries with diodes oppisite and pulsed the coil with ac you would get two seperate polarities but not with pulsed DC . Have you noticed that with the Jt the led will only light one way ? )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 18, 2009, 08:42:50 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on February 18, 2009, 08:04:41 PM
You know i thought about this and i am pretty sure the guy is wrong . ..at least in his battery / transformer example . you see a transformer works normally with induction so when he connects the battery the normal job of the transformer is done ,this is not BEMF or BACK ELECTRO MOTIVE FORCE . ITS induction . BUT when he releases the battery ONE BEMF pulse that is normally wasted is release and its only one polarity.the oppisite of the original induced pulse . It is much higher than the first induced voltage .That is why Bedini uses a Diode and he is the one who patented the Idea Of capturing the idea of BEMF ( Its really TIME) with a Diode .He used the term BEMF to get the Patent . there is much more to that pulse than just higher voltage . this would only apply to his primary /secondary demo with the two leds . Now if you wound a trifilar coil with two secondaries with diodes oppisite and pulsed the coil with ac you would get two seperate polarities but not with pulsed DC . Have you noticed that with the Jt the led will only light one way ?

lol

well i did not mention with my new green guy it lites both ways on the secondary feedback coil .... and is much brighter the other way ....

but

when i do this all else stops ..... no neon no led on first feedback coil no jt lite ... however the coil still runns ....

how do i know ... ;D lol

answer .... cuz the led is lit ... lol and if i remove it instantally there all lit up agin

ah just thought i would mention it ...

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 18, 2009, 09:05:20 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on February 18, 2009, 08:42:50 PM

lol

well i did not mention with my new green guy it lites both ways on the secondary feedback coil .... and is much brighter the other way ....

but

when i do this all else stops ..... no neon no led on first feedback coil no jt lite ... however the coil still runns ....

how do i know ... ;D lol

answer .... cuz the led is lit ... lol and if i remove it instantally there all lit up agin

ah just thought i would mention it ...

ist!

Hey Ist . Well with the Way Mk1 Wound his secondary along with oppisit primary's it is possible to catch the forward normal pulse and the higher BEMF pulse . You see now :) Again It dosnt apply to a not so normal Jt . Only normal transformer type . not three coils and you see that guy is wrong .when you turn your led and it lights dim you are intercepting the primary induction and thats why everything goes out .but you turn it and the bemf takes over and wala !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 18, 2009, 09:16:10 PM

@ Jeanna
Where are you ? You are the only girl i know besides My little one . We Miss you .

Albert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 18, 2009, 09:24:18 PM

@ Al:

Jeanna is still on her camping trip. She will have a lot of reading to do when she gets back......

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 18, 2009, 09:52:19 PM

@Timmy
Nice find about the FreeCycle, thats a bonza find, well done.

@Bill,
My 2 green torids, ha ha, I wasn't sending up anyone in particular lol, but I got a good laugh out of it also. ;D

@all
I thought I might repost a web site I have seen, it has free calculaters for those into circuits, anyway its below.
http://www.tech-systems-labs.com/freesoftware.htm
Might be something here that the bofins might like to have.

Got to get back to reading up the threads.

General Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 18, 2009, 11:04:00 PM

@all
My 2N2222 transistor on my JT became very hot all of a suddon, :oI I added a 1.2v D NiMH cell in parallel with the 1.2v AA NiMH cell

My current consumption has risen, I also added a small choke torrid in series with the output from my Bridge diode, the output from this I fed into a big homemade coil, this I feed into my batteries.

So to fix the overheating, I glued a medicine cup onto the plywood base, half filled it with light oil......and plonked the JT transistor in to this oil, now its running better. (remember well back I made the suggestion of heatsinking a transistor, it works).

My multimeter accross the coil output, cannot measure the output on the third battery I am trying to recharge., thought I had broken another multimeter.

I back feed from the BIG 2nd battery back to the torid, the 1st AA 1.2v cell is reading 1.44v.....is it charging????????

we will see.

I changed the Joul Thief's white LED to a RED led also.....tried shorting the LED out before, but the circuit stopped, so the LED is needed in this circuit to operate.

I have white LED at the Bridge diode also, if I take it out the high pulses stop, so this has to be included as well.

General Jim

Ps the AA cell voltage has risen to 1.50v ... this is a 1.2volt NiMH cell

Arrrr Ha found the culprit, I got a low 12v battery in my multimeter.

0474 = Oil Heat Sink with Tr1 a 2N2222 plonked in it upsidedown.
notice the RED LED.
0475 = Current untidy setup in full, 3rd big cell on right is not hooked up, only the other 2 big cells
0476 = Big BLUE coil is the one I wound, about 400 turns or thereabouts (I 4 got), the small choke I insurted this between the bridge and the Coil, the choke makes and breaks the circuit for me. causing the waveform on next photo.
0477 = current waveform

A supriseing thing occurs with my torrid, if I contact any of the secondaries with a + positive, the waveform alters, and I can get many different waveforms, depending where I put the + pos, if I remove the + contact, the wave form still stays.

Sometimes if I remove the batteries, this thing still keeps going.

:-[

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 18, 2009, 11:20:03 PM

Quote from: electricme on February 18, 2009, 11:04:00 PM
@all
My 2N2222 transistor on my JT became very hot all of a suddon, :oI I added a 1.2v D NiMH cell in parallel with the 1.2v AA NiMH cell

My current consumption has risen, I also added a small choke torrid in series with the output from my Bridge diode, the output from this I fed into a big homemade coil, this I feed into my batteries.

So to fix the overheating, I glued a medicine cup onto the plywood base, half filled it with light oil......and plonked the JT transistor in to this oil, now its running better. (remember well back I made the suggestion of heatsinking a transistor, it works).

My multimeter accross the coil output, cannot measure the output on the third battery I am trying to recharge., thought I had broken another multimeter.

I back feed from the BIG 2nd battery back to the torid, the 1st AA 1.2v cell is reading 1.44v.....is it charging????????

we will see.

I changed the Joul Thief's white LED to a RED led also.....tried shorting the LED out before, but the circuit stopped, so the LED is needed in this circuit to operate.

I have white LED at the Bridge diode also, if I take it out the high pulses stop, so this has to be included as well.

General Jim

Ps the AA cell voltage has risen to 1.50v ... this is a 1.2volt NiMH cell

Arrrr Ha found the culprit, I got a low 12v battery in my multimeter.

0474 = Oil Heat Sink with Tr1 a 2N2222 plonked in it upsidedown.
notice the RED LED.
0475 = Current untidy setup in full, 3rd big cell on right is not hooked up, only the other 2 big cells
0476 = Big BLUE coil is the one I wound, about 400 turns or thereabouts (I 4 got), the small choke I insurted this between the bridge and the Coil, the choke makes and breaks the circuit for me. causing the waveform on next photo.
0477 = current waveform

A supriseing thing occurs with my torrid, if I contact any of the secondaries with a + positive, the waveform alters, and I can get many different waveforms, depending where I put the + pos, if I remove the + contact, the wave form still stays.

Sometimes if I remove the batteries, this thing still keeps going.

:-[

hey there electricme ..
you don't have enuff resistance on you base from the look of the lonely resistor there . I would put at least a 10k pot on her in series with it . It's overdrive thats producing heat . BTW .Still no Letter .I guess the Whale Sunk :) But Mine will be By Stork :)
)
Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 18, 2009, 11:29:29 PM

Quote from: timmy1729 on February 18, 2009, 12:47:12 PM
Can anyone tell me what kind of motor he is using in the video?

The small one is a cd player motor, and the grey one is from the tape deck.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 19, 2009, 01:28:42 AM

@Goat,
I went and took a look at Bob Perrotts site, he has almost identical LED JT crts there, spent a lot of time there, stilll havent got to the end of the posts lol
Thanks for pointing me there Paul.

@Slayer007,
Bridge diodes are the way to go, except if you want to direct some of the DC to a particular circuit component or part, or block it from a component etc etc.

Example, to rectify the AC coming out of the secondary of a transformer, use a Bridge Rectifier, (has 4 diodes in it), this alters the AC to DC, but it will have ripples in the DC component, so we use elytrolitics and ceramics to filterout these things.

There are different diode configurations, which produce different outputs, just stick with the old bridge and you should be OK.

General Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 19, 2009, 01:39:29 AM

@Mk1,
Many thanks for explaining to me the tuning of the torrid, EA muchly.
See people, I didnt know so I asked, I not perfect.

Thanks Mark, you go into the top drawer also ;D

General Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 19, 2009, 03:39:29 AM

@Ist,
Congrats on getting your "green" torid working

You got excellent voltage out of it, well done.

@Bill,
Yes, that procedure Mk1 did for me is excellent, I also will be printing it out, when I get to a printer,lol.

This instruction belongs in a special place.

General Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 19, 2009, 04:08:33 AM

@ Gadgetmall,
I'm worried about that item, you should have got it by now, I hope it hasn't gonee astray, well give it a little bit longer.
Mabe customs took an interest in it, not that it isn't anything else than a switch and a bunch of resistors, 2 leads and clips.

I once was sent a package from the US about Stubblefield stuff, it took ages before it got to my end.

About that transistor getting hot, the resistor is solded to a leg of the LED, so it dosent blow, it's a current limiter, I have a resistor connected to the base, it's at the other end of the black clip on the base of the Tr, attatched to a big black wheel!!!!

General Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 19, 2009, 05:07:36 AM

@all
Some time ago I got advice about securing cheeze to the mouse trap tripper, OK, I done it now.

Here is da rules
Give mouse no chance at alll
Have to be totally unfair to mouse or mouses, even little mouses
Got to be unrelenting in your resolve to, get em
Mouse is cunning, he dosent care about yo
Mouse is da enemy, wipe em out, no mercy.

Craft lunch is glued and hard wired (10turns) , lets see if the mouse can get it off, he he he he

General Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: rensseak on February 19, 2009, 05:18:28 AM

Quote from: electricme on February 19, 2009, 05:07:36 AM
@all
Some time ago I got advice about securing cheeze to the mouse trap tripper, OK, I done it now.

Craft lunch is glued and hard wired (10turns) , lets see if the mouse can get it off, he he he he

General Jim

unfortunately they dont like cheeze, it is only a myth, they like more maize or corn. So better you use bread. ;D

Norbert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 19, 2009, 06:59:17 AM

@all

I was experimenting with a new toroid I built with what I could get.
The toroid is excellent turning the motor and making the running battery to last a little longer.
But to this moment I have not been able to get a decent feedback to the source.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 19, 2009, 08:01:08 AM

a pic of my toy

added the 4 bridges im gonna put a few small super caps on it ... to feed back the output

i have 3 super caps i found in my junk 1 from a vcr 2 from shake em flashlights..

2 are .047f and 1 is .33 f

im hopeing to fill a feed back cap off the jt led side through the 4001 rectifier ... im un concerned with any other out put of this coil right now ...

my goal is to keep all coils and bulbs lit as well take feedback off the coil i have tryed on the jt side it does not effect to other out puts at all

here is a pic of the coil and the bridges added

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on February 19, 2009, 08:31:48 AM

Quote from: RAF on February 18, 2009, 06:14:19 PM
ï»¿@ Timmy1729

Does anyone have any idea what motor he was using in his other two videos? If it is in something
I have at home I will use that. If not, I am going shopping later anyway.

Tried this a while back it is a dc motor with one of its armature pickups broken off.
This causes a dead spot in the armature windings, and gives a pulsing affect of the current from
the battery.

â€œNote when i did this i used a unmodified dc motor â€œ so maybe the pulsing has some thing to add
to the setup.

Hope this is what you wanted to know. If so i would use a dc motor i had laying around rather
than buy a good new one

@RAF
Welcome to the thread! That is precisely what I needed to know! Thanks!

@All
I currently have my bigger toroid JT set up as the diagram "Improvements for Efficiency, Component Protection, and Stability." on this page shows: http://wiki.waggy.org/dokuwiki/electronics/joulethief (http://wiki.waggy.org/dokuwiki/electronics/joulethief)

First of all, that setup is a waste of time. You gain absolutely nothing. You're better off just putting a diode between the collector and the + side of the LED and putting a cap across the LED. So anyway, I hooked up a 3v battery to it to see if it would give any higher voltage. Nope. In fact, the 3v batt(bought new last night) gave me a steady 3.0vdc across the LED. My AA battery gives me 3.2 or 3.3vdc across the LED. So, that threw me for a loop. Why does it do that ???

So, I'm going to reduce it back to the simple diode/cap config and then make it like Slayer's diagram yesterday.

Now that I've got all of those 48" fluoro tubes, I've got to find a Fuji so I can light those up. My KODAK won't do it. It puts out a good 288vdc without the 330vdc cap on it. But, it won't light them. Could the flash tube in the board be sucking juice from the circuit? Should I remove it?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 19, 2009, 08:50:11 AM

well i added an avalanche rechargeable battery ... right off the bridge on the jt led and well it recharged REALLY FAST ...

but it stops in bout 2min at .95vdc in the battery ... it had 0 in it when i started and it holds it for quite some time ... so it made no diffrence to the system with the battery on there .. i guess i will add a super cap there ... and see if i can get the voltage beond .95 ... i know it will ;) ;D

i did it last night instantly the super cap was charged to 1.7vdc so that is lots of voltage to feed back to a battery that has 0 -.95 in it

see how this goes

ist!

i just tryed this on another avalanche battery ... and im impressed ....... in less that 8 seconds the second one is at .9 v hummmm

on to the cap deal now

now im wondering if i could run a feed stright through to the battery as i have just done but also add a cap to it and then have a drain from the cap to the battery .... ?? so soon as the jt turns on it fills the battery to .95 then the cap can fill too to what evere voltage it can and dump it or take off both cap and battery so i end up with like 2 volts out of both ... only if the cap will not recharge beond .95 v

well playing as usual ... back at it .....

i have decided to put 2 avalanche batteries and 1 .33f supercap on the jt bridge... ;D ;D 8)

here is a pic of what i will use on the jt led bridge

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on February 19, 2009, 09:45:31 AM

http://www.magnet.fsu.edu/education/tutorials/java/ignitioncoil/index.html (http://www.magnet.fsu.edu/education/tutorials/java/ignitioncoil/index.html)

Speaking of BEMF, this is a very simple introduction to the induction in Tesla coils and ignition coils. Even I understand what it shows ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on February 19, 2009, 11:07:49 AM

For those of us who are inexperienced and/or learning this as we go along(i.e. myself), here is a great visual interactive diagram on how BEMF works. ;D
http://www.magnet.fsu.edu/education/tutorials/java/backemf/index.html (http://www.magnet.fsu.edu/education/tutorials/java/backemf/index.html)

I am going to try this simple setup when I get home this afternoon! That totally makes sense now! ;D
My question to you experienced guys is where would I put a diode in this setup(a la Bedini) to redirect the BEMF ???

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 19, 2009, 11:08:32 AM

Quote from: timmy1729 on February 19, 2009, 09:45:31 AM
http://www.magnet.fsu.edu/education/tutorials/java/ignitioncoil/index.html (http://www.magnet.fsu.edu/education/tutorials/java/ignitioncoil/index.html)

Speaking of BEMF, this is a very simple introduction to the induction in Tesla coils and ignition coils. Even I understand what it shows ;D

nice TIMMY ...

i have a few mods for that unit too!!! ;D ;D

sheesh ...... tho .... can you repost it in 1 week so i can then get to it ;)

im just trying to finish that little green thing ... lol yea ... well that and everything else i have started then imagine the carpet RIPPED OUT FROM UNDER YOUR FEET!!!

but i move along as time stops for no man YET !! lol ;D 8)

ist!

so i hooked up the super cap it charges to 2.1 v off of the bridge ... so i was thinking of hooking up all the - to the super cap and the neg from the bridge then the pos from the bridge into the super cap then 2 resistors off the pos of the supercap to each battery ...

but what value resistor ?? will this work ?? i want the cap to fill first then i want to slowly drain in to both batteries ....

IDEAS ... ?!?!?!?!?!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 19, 2009, 12:44:03 PM

@ timmy1729

The voltage across an LED is a function of the diode current, not the voltage put across it. The voltage usually goes up with current, but in your case it seems that the LED voltage is decreasing with increased current. Increasing the current should always make the LED brighter, although this may not always be noticeable. LEDs do not obey Ohms law.

Your links are good learning places. When you try the second demo, use a current meter in place of the light and note which way the current goes when the switch is closed and when it is opened. That is not clearly shown in the demo.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 19, 2009, 01:33:44 PM

been playing round trying to choke back the flow from the super cap to the recharge batteries ... lol

i discover i need a LOT OF RESISTANCE ... i ended up with 2 1 meg pots hooked togather and it slows it down a bit ....

the answer would be 2 HIGH RESISTANCE DIODES .... ;D where do i find them ?? i think 2 mega ohm should work great ... if not im on

the search for high value resistors ... if not i will stick to the post all works as planned ....

it allows me a BUFFER TIME .... lol in my cap to charge to a higher voltage ... this is required as i see it ...

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 19, 2009, 07:20:13 PM

@ All:

I have been approached by someone that wants us to develop a lighting system for them consisting of the earth battery, supercaps and the JT circuit driving leds. They have looked over our topic here and evidently like what they have seen. I will let you know more when additional information is available. In the meantime, keep up the great work everyone.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 19, 2009, 07:22:31 PM

@Ist
Recharging 1.2v batt from a higher voltage.

I tried this yesterday and got hit pinkies for my trouble, I soldered a diode to my 1.2v batt holder, connected the lead from a full batt and the diode got very very hot.
I might have to put a Zenner in series with a suitable resister and Transistor to peg back the voltage, got to do some thinking about this though.
A few posts back I asked about another circuit involving a LM317 as it needs 3v or higher head room to operate, and the batt driving the circuit is at 1.2 or in some cases 1.5v. I was going to use the LM317 to set the amount of current to the 1st battery to keep it toped up
.
I think the Zenner is the way to go for the time being, until we get better info, what do you all think?

General Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 19, 2009, 07:28:02 PM

@ all

Is there a expert on hall effects in here!

@electricme

Do you have the charger for that battery, to see what it is sending.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 19, 2009, 07:47:45 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 19, 2009, 07:20:13 PM
@ All:

I have been approached by someone that wants us to develop a lighting system for them consisting of the earth battery, supercaps and the JT circuit driving leds. They have looked over our topic here and evidently like what they have seen. I will let you know more when additional information is available. In the meantime, keep up the great work everyone.

Bill

Bill you realize i did this allready a month ago . running two jts . i have a better system now that runs on 1 ma FOREVER ! . we can do it and i will be glad to share it or combine efforts and make it better. you know how to boost the juice on the earth sooo ..
Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 19, 2009, 07:53:24 PM

@all

Any idea?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 19, 2009, 08:16:21 PM

Al:

I was going to send you a pm but I guess we can't do that anymore, at least for now. E-mail me at: wsellis888@bellsouth.net and I'll tell you what I know so far. Yes, I am aware that you did this already....and I am jealous because that was the reason (one of the reasons) I started this topic but I have to wait until spring, or the ground thaw to do this, ha ha. Send me an e-mail and we can discuss what little I know. (won't take long)

Bill ***EDIT*** However this works out, we will do this as a team made up from the experimenters on our group here.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on February 19, 2009, 08:43:52 PM

@MK: cool pic you posted there!
Yep, one rod through two ring cores would sort of equal
a single loop coil on a core with 2 many-loop coils :)
High current through the rod => high voltage from the coils.
... and then connect the coils in "buck boost" fashion,
much like the JTs, with diodes at the right places,
and there you go.

And about the Hall effects, I know a little about Hall effect
in that it is basically identical to what happens in a homopolar dynamo;
doesn't really matter if it's the conductor with the electrons in it that moves,
or if it's the electrons themselves that move through the conductor,
but if it happens inside a magnetic field and perpendicular to the field "lines",
part of the moving electrons are 'deflected' and a secondary electron flow
appears roughly perpendicular to the original flow and the magnetic field "lines",
in the same plane as the original flow.
In a homopolar dynamo this results in a current between rim and center of the wheel,
in a Hall effect probe this results in a current perpendicular to the drive current.
And then there's the quantum Hall effect which is slightly different and involves
the auto-arrangement of opposing spin electrons inside a single current under
the influence of the currents own magnetic field... but that's not what is usually
meant with the term Hall effect. ;)
Hope that helps any?

@Bill: interesting announcement there, about the light thing :)
Can you tell us more?

Regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 19, 2009, 08:51:49 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 19, 2009, 07:53:24 PM
@all

Any idea?

The rod is used when the voltage is ac in order to get the sweet point that the elctricity output is the best.

@timmy posted a link that explains that.

Jesus

Edit:

It is called inductive reactance.

http://www.magnet.fsu.edu/education/tutorials/java/inductivereactance/index.html

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on February 19, 2009, 09:06:25 PM

@ Pirate and All

There's been mentioned of super caps throughout the thread so I thought I'd share a thought with you all, I was at the electronic store to get some parts and big caps here in Canada are OUTRAGEOUSLY EXPENSIVE so I decided to forgo that part of the purchase. On my way home I remembered seeing some bass stiffener super caps at Walmart and decided that for the price it would be cheaper than getting large caps and more versatile across different projects to use one of those instead :)

Here's a picture of it on a gadgetmall bedini fan type setup.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 19, 2009, 09:56:59 PM

@Ist

A Series Parallel arrangement to charge a 12v SLA cell, using a JT

Use a LM3914 Dot/Bar driver IC chip, the outputs could switch on a selected MOSFET, set the time "on" and time "off" then the output goes to the 2nd Mosfet, the same occurs, then to the 3rd, 4th 5th etc etc as many Caps / batteries you want to charge up.
At this stage, use a flip flop circuit to do a series discharge of the caps into a bank of Nicads or wet cell battery.

The 1st hi pulse turns on all MOSFETs completing the crt to the battery, which discharges all the caps into the battery itself.
T 2nd cycle of the flip flop resets the LM3914 chip counter and it begins all over again.

The lower the cap capacity, the faster it can recharge and discharge, which makes the whole shebang work faster.

Set up all your 1.2v Cells or capacitors with a 1N4004 at the positave, so the current dosent leak back to another cell.
Have a number of MOSFETS that can turn on all together, connecting the caps in series to make up whatever voltage you need.

I have not made this up but I see no probs, I will get stuck into a circuit this weekend, and prob go and buy a LED Voltmeter kit or 2 with a handful of MOSFETS, we will see.

The only thing with this, I would need to have a charged 12v gell cell so it could start, or is there another way to do this?

General Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 19, 2009, 10:17:43 PM

@Mk1
Is there an expert on Hall Effect stuff here. :D
Nope but I have had an idea I posted quite a few back.

Get a redundent floppy disk drive, look under it, there is a big flywheel, it has a small magnet that flyes round and round, it passes by a tiny black transister, this is a hall effect transister I beleive, (sorry I was wrong).

*** EDIT *** by Jim,
I Just pulled apart 2 floppy disk drives,
There is NO hall Tr there, sorry guys, my mistake, I was so sure there was one there.
There is a tiny magnet which passes by a tiny wire wound ferite, this is glued to the pcb.
This must be some type of sync pulse or tacho thing for the motor RPMs.

OK lets start fooling around with Hall Effect Transisters, these things are expensieve.

These things sence a magnetic field and turn on or off, same as a transistor, but thats all I know, I can see more studdy time coming up lol.

General Jim

Hooroo, Gotta pak 4 weekend, will try to keep up to date by my laptop.

@bill,
I was a bit crook this morning, will PM u soon as soon as I''m " outa the woods". ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 19, 2009, 10:56:28 PM

@all

this is only the start im open for investment and as you can guess there is a team of us...

;D ;D 8)

if you know what you want we will build it make it work and sell it

all this takes money to do ...

i make this knowen now ... i can easly close the loop and it will run with gain ...

all my words are here on overunity.com for the past 3 years ... know what im still saying the same thing ;D 8)

you all are building it now ... ;D

..... ;D

any how be it knowen i have many things thare not public ... i can build the things i have designed given a fair budget ..

and i dont work alone ... as we all know ..

i have MADE NO MENTION TO ORBIT ENGERY WITCH I CAN CONTAIN AND CONTROL EASLY .. I HAVE SCOPED THIS WAVE ... YEARS AGO .. I HAVE MADE MENTION TO ALL MOST ALL FREE ENGERY DEVICES TO EVER BE CREATED ... ;)

AS I SAID I HAVE LITERLY 100'S OF THINGS I COULD BUILD LOL

anny how i found some thing to aid BIG TIME OUR JT'S

LOL

i will post it tommorow lol

this instantly pumps up my super cap to almost 4vdc... still runs on a aa battery costs 2 bucks lol

ist

@goat ...

where are you located i know your in canada ...

pm me we must speek

8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 20, 2009, 12:51:50 AM

@Mk1
Do I have the charger for my NiMH D cell?, arrr yes and No.

I charge it via Arlec Battery charger, however, I want to use the 2.4v from the big 1.2v NiCad batteries to do this.

As an experiment I cliped the positive lead to the bat +, I forgot to remove it, I touched the diode a couple of minutes later and thats when I realised my mistake.

These D cells are very very light, (not heavy like the NiCads) is this normal for NiMH cells?

General Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 20, 2009, 01:27:16 AM

@electricme

On the energetic forum , the slayer tread , will be really interesting for you , they talk about recharging , its called the big joule thief .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 20, 2009, 02:36:21 AM

@ MK1:

I had heard about this forum from my reading and also the Big Joule Thief topic. I went to that forum and could not find it. so, I did a search on there for the big joule thief topic and it said, no records found, or something like that. Can you post a link directly to it? Thank you in advance.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 20, 2009, 02:44:29 AM

@pirate

There you go. http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/3609-big-joule-theif.html

So edge , are they investor or they want this for free?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 20, 2009, 03:30:59 AM

So, I made my own version, following what was outlined in the B plan on this page:http://www.talkingelectronics.com/projects/LEDTorchCircuits/LEDTorchCircuits-P1.html (http://www.talkingelectronics.com/projects/LEDTorchCircuits/LEDTorchCircuits-P1.html)

And I'm having trouble figuring out how much power it's consuming, I measure across the leads on the LED and I get a 1.1 volt reading and a 26ma current draw - Is this where i'm supposed to measure the power consumption?

Voltage isn't kicking up - and I don't know how to measure the cross frequencies. Any suggestions?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 20, 2009, 06:32:24 AM

@jadaro2600
Hello .Congrats on making your joule thief .I have studied all those schematics on there months ago and Decided we here have the Best Circuits on the internet . I Suggest you stick around and read up a bit . Mk1 and Jeanna fusion mod is a good one and Xee2 has good ones . I personally have one that draws less than 0.81 ma running with 4 bright Leds off dead battery's :) they are all here on the Pirate thread ! As explained in previous post you measure the current draw with your amp meter in series with the battery . We are makin Power now !!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 20, 2009, 07:03:19 AM

@mk1 the hall effect sensor are cheap here http://www.allelectronics.com/index.php?page=search&search_query=hall+&x=17&y=6

2 for a dollar or you can salvage them from a VCR . they are inside the drum head !

also here is a diagram of amagnetic levitating device using a coil and a hall sensor to adjust the field

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 20, 2009, 08:13:06 AM

Quote from: electricme on February 19, 2009, 10:17:43 PM
@Mk1
Is there an expert on Hall Effect stuff here. :D
Nope but I have had an idea I posted quite a few back.

Get a redundent floppy disk drive, look under it, there is a big flywheel, it has a small magnet that flyes round and round, it passes by a tiny black transister, this is a hall effect transister I beleive, (sorry I was wrong).

*** EDIT *** by Jim,
I Just pulled apart 2 floppy disk drives,
There is NO hall Tr there, sorry guys, my mistake, I was so sure there was one there.
There is a tiny magnet which passes by a tiny wire wound ferite, this is glued to the pcb.
This must be some type of sync pulse or tacho thing for the motor RPMs.

OK lets start fooling around with Hall Effect Transisters, these things are expensieve.

These things sence a magnetic field and turn on or off, same as a transistor, but thats all I know, I can see more studdy time coming up lol.

General Jim

Hooroo, Gotta pak 4 weekend, will try to keep up to date by my laptop.

@bill,
I was a bit crook this morning, will PM u soon as soon as I''m " outa the woods". ;)

The hall effect works only with the positive side of the magnet if you want it to work with the negative side you have to put it with the back in front of the negative pole.

@all

Congratulations to all experimenters here!
Thank you for your work and inspiration!

Special thanks to @captain !!!!!!!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 20, 2009, 08:38:55 AM

I was thinking about making a fox hole radio.
And replace the head set with a rectifier and see if I could get enought voltage to run a JT.

Here is a link that shows how to build one.

http://bizarrelabs.com/foxhole.htm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on February 20, 2009, 09:16:55 AM

Quote from: slayer007 on February 20, 2009, 08:38:55 AM
I was thinking about making a fox hole radio.
And replace the head set with a rectifier and see if I could get enought voltage to run a JT.

Here is a link that shows how to build one.

http://bizarrelabs.com/foxhole.htm

Yes, that should be doable.
Although, if I recall my crystal radios 101 correctly, such a foxhole/crystal radio
actually uses a fair part of the collected potential to actively filter out the
other radio frequencies...
And if I am not mistaken in that, then it would seem to produce only
a specific selected frequency output signal.
Would removing the frequency filter LC circuit and using only the
sensitive germanium diodes (or rectifier) not result in the accumulation
of all available charges, instead of only those that match the selected
frequency?
In other words, would a "Tate Ambient Power Module" aka "energy from thin air"
circuit, basically a very sensitive diode rectifier with collector capacitor,
not produce more usefull potential than a crystal radio?

Regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 20, 2009, 09:33:10 AM

Quote from: slayer007 on February 20, 2009, 08:38:55 AM
I was thinking about making a fox hole radio.
And replace the head set with a rectifier and see if I could get enought voltage to run a JT.

Here is a link that shows how to build one.

http://bizarrelabs.com/foxhole.htm

Yep Slayer its possible to put a transformer on that output to boost it . I understand that if you can't find a Crystal earphone (60's 70's) you can use an old telephone ear set and put a transformer on it to hear thru the piezo tele ear piece so i guess this is enuff to put a diode and and see what it produces.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 20, 2009, 09:54:38 AM

@all

I did not want to say anything yet, but I am having a tremendous success!!!!!!
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6362.msg158838#msg158838

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 20, 2009, 10:01:45 AM

About the foxhole circuit.
That was what I had on my mind a few days ago.
Look at this photo I found!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on February 20, 2009, 10:42:25 AM

Quote from: slayer007 on February 20, 2009, 08:38:55 AM
I was thinking about making a fox hole radio.
And replace the head set with a rectifier and see if I could get enought voltage to run a JT.

Here is a link that shows how to build one.

http://bizarrelabs.com/foxhole.htm

hi slayer, jesus and i talked a bit about this back at the start of the thread. i had showed an aircore coil from my crystal radio in a jt circuit to demonstrate that a ferrite core was not needed. jesus thought i was powering the jt from radio waves at first. he expressed a desire to be able to light an led with a non battery powered crystal radio. the idea was mulled over and i suggested he use a led in place of the germanium diode as well as using a bifilar crystal radio coil so the voltage/current could be stepped up or down as needed. i like the idea of using the output to power a jt, i think a bifilar crystal coil would work best in this case also.
red leds and schottky diodes work well in crystal radios in place of the germanium. i can repost the crystal radio circuit with the bifilar coil if you want, the coil can be wound on an empty toilet paper roll. it works very well.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 20, 2009, 10:52:41 AM

@all
What i am about to show you is a Closed loop JT circuit on my proto board . I have secured a neo Patent so i claim all rights to this circuit and the concept .It lights and keeps it's own battery charged I Its been running for a week now with an alkaline battery gaining In Voltage very rapidly. I call this the Rainbow effect .I still have to Load it down a bit as the volts is way over the normal AA voltage . Don't be fooled By the Medusa Toroid Coil(Another Coined Phrase) , It works good !Schematic of this unit will be it in Kit .and i will offer a schemitic for everyone to play with here . .
Al
AKA fusionchip = yahoo
AKA 4Christonly1 =youtube
AKA GADGETMALL = Overunity.com

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 20, 2009, 10:54:03 AM

well i guess i have a few hall sencers .... round 8)

last night i found a aa to cell fone charger at ramma for 2 bucks ;D

puts 4.5 v dc ... works good for a supply ... ;)

congrats jesus ...

getting intresting now ;D

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on February 20, 2009, 01:15:26 PM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on February 20, 2009, 10:42:25 AM
red leds and schottky diodes work well in crystal radios in place of the germanium.

Really?
I thought the entire idea of the crystal radio was to use a very sensitive germanium diode
in order to utilise the extremely weak signals... And since red LEDs and schottkys tend
to need much higher voltages to work, I would expect a crystal set with them instead
of the Ge diode to be a lot less effective with weak input signals...
... but I suppose they can work if the coils transform the weak input to a higher
voltage pulse in a JT variation that merely uses the crystal set to get input.
It's a good idea to try anyway.

Still, I wonder which producs more, a fullblown crystal set circuit, or the
relatively simple "Tate Ambient Power Module" (which is in fact a simple
rectifyier using sensitive Ge diodes to catch even the smallest fluctuations).
I wonder since a crystal set is basically a Tate module with a tuned/tubeable
LC circuit attached...

Anyone? :)

@Al/Fusionchip/Gadgetmall:
Nice pics there!
Did you post a schematic of this circuit earlier? If so, I must dig around
in the thread to find it. If not, are you going to?
Definately something to try and replicate, that circuit of yours!
lol "Medusa coil"... I suppose that refers to the coil shag and not
to how vicious it bites? ;)

Regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on February 20, 2009, 01:38:34 PM

Quote from: Koen1 on February 20, 2009, 01:15:26 PM
Really?
I thought the entire idea of the crystal radio was to use a very sensitive germanium diode
in order to utilise the extremely weak signals... And since red LEDs and schottkys tend
to need much higher voltages to work, I would expect a crystal set with them instead
of the Ge diode to be a lot less effective with weak input signals...
... but I suppose they can work if the coils transform the weak input to a higher
voltage pulse in a JT variation that merely uses the crystal set to get input.
It's a good idea to try anyway.

really. you are correct in that germanium diodes are hard to beat for most low frequency crystal radio designs if no bias is desired, but schottky diodes will work better without bias if higher source and load impedances are achieved.
all that aside, put 10uA bias (easy to get, be clever) on a schottky and it's the clear winner by a long shot. red leds need bias and are really only ok for low freq. but hey, don't take my word for it, build one and try different diodes. expectations can easily be confirmed or dismissed this way.

Quote from: Koen1 on February 20, 2009, 01:15:26 PM
Still, I wonder which producs more, a fullblown crystal set circuit, or the
relatively simple "Tate Ambient Power Module" (which is in fact a simple
rectifyier using sensitive Ge diodes to catch even the smallest fluctuations).
I wonder since a crystal set is basically a Tate module with a tuned/tubeable
LC circuit attached...

Anyone? :)

build them both, try different diodes, gives more definitive results than wondering ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 20, 2009, 02:14:37 PM

i just wound a new mk2 on a black toroide .. i know it is ok for this as it was previsly wound similar....

but i used bell fone wire ..and i made them the exact same lengt jt coils and then i x it by 3 and made the mk2 winding

it is coloured coated wire so i can correct my winding if it is wrong ... ;D

now last night i bought a nova shake it flashlight i removed what i thought at first glance a super cap but indeed it is a small rechargeable nicad .... ;D

it is all ready to go lol so i will use it ;)

i also bought a few crank it flash lights same deal ... wich is ok

:)

so im throwing togather another small unit ... that can and will self run with output ;D 8)

i will get 1 more nova shake it light ... they both will be hooked up on the secondaries.... for out put ... i have the curcuit from a crank jobbie .. flash light i will put on the jt fly back ... to self power ... we will use a small cell fone charger to power the ring ... from a aa battery only for a few min ;) to fill the nicads....

and if i go further on this i can use the cell charger only to fill the jt fly back nicad ... THE FIRST TIME ... ;D

LETS CALL IT A KICK START ;) LOL so whan i compleat this it should be offered as a closed loop kit with a kick starter ... :)

and cheep ...

ist!

i need guys that could place togather kit instructions ... assembly the whole deal ... and im sure we will work out some thing ... 8)

anyone intrested in this job PM me

here is a pic of this unit in the works

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 20, 2009, 03:09:55 PM

Quote from: Koen1 on February 20, 2009, 01:15:26 PM
Really?
I thought the entire idea of the crystal radio was to use a very sensitive germanium diode
in order to utilise the extremely weak signals... And since red LEDs and schottkys tend
to need much higher voltages to work, I would expect a crystal set with them instead
of the Ge diode to be a lot less effective with weak input signals...
... but I suppose they can work if the coils transform the weak input to a higher
voltage pulse in a JT variation that merely uses the crystal set to get input.
It's a good idea to try anyway.

Still, I wonder which producs more, a fullblown crystal set circuit, or the
relatively simple "Tate Ambient Power Module" (which is in fact a simple
rectifyier using sensitive Ge diodes to catch even the smallest fluctuations).
I wonder since a crystal set is basically a Tate module with a tuned/tubeable
LC circuit attached...

Anyone? :)

@Al/Fusionchip/Gadgetmall:
Nice pics there!
Did you post a schematic of this circuit earlier? If so, I must dig around
in the thread to find it. If not, are you going to?
Definately something to try and replicate, that circuit of yours!
lol "Medusa coil"... I suppose that refers to the coil shag and not
to how vicious it bites? ;)

Regards,
Koen

Hi Koen . Yes i will be posting the schemitic as soon as i can draw one up . Every time i post one there is always something backwards or missing and i have to be corrected . I will take My time this time and make sure i draw it correctly then have Nieves Look at and see if see anything that looks wrong . I am getting used to a circuit program . Building it is one thing , putting it on paper is another ..
BTW . yes the Medusa Coil is wound tight except the three secondaries are just thrown on there :)Cant decide if it Looks like a bush or Medusa's head ;D)

Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 20, 2009, 04:15:44 PM

here is a picture of the mk2 hooked up working ...

i can add the bridges ... without effect to the unit ...

next i will hook up the crank jobbie curcuit ...

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 20, 2009, 04:35:47 PM

@jesus and gadget

Congratulation ! great work !

@all

Great thing are happening here lest not forget the power of the collective mind !
I am really proud of all of you! And for all your work and faith.
We did not get confused in 200 years old laws, but made our own laws !

Thank to all of you!

@ist

Real nice , and great picture !

This site is so busy , i cant see it , lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 20, 2009, 05:19:09 PM

@all

I got one other little secret , to get this , you will need to test it to understand.

To test this , you will need a brush motor , a led , and a coil ( it can be a selenoid , i use a coil from a hair clipper , real nice about a 1000 feet 30 gage wire coil.

Ok not take the motor and connect to led , hand turn the motor, yes the led light but the motor will get harder to turn , because of the feedback to it. Now put a coil in series with the led , now the motor turns freely and led light.

Whit that coil now it is possible to run a dc motor from a cap , and keep the cap charged with the jt.

Btw , the clipper coil gives me over 120 volts ac , when i use it on my bedini.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 20, 2009, 06:37:21 PM

Quote from: @slayer007
I was thinking about making a fox hole radio.
And replace the head set with a rectifier and see if I could get enought voltage to run a JT.

Here is a link that shows how to build one.

http://bizarrelabs.com/foxhole.htm

I would like to build one.

Quote from: @koen1
Yes, that should be doable.
Although, if I recall my crystal radios 101 correctly, such a foxhole/crystal radio
actually uses a fair part of the collected potential to actively filter out the
other radio frequencies...
And if I am not mistaken in that, then it would seem to produce only
a specific selected frequency output signal.
Would removing the frequency filter LC circuit and using only the
sensitive germanium diodes (or rectifier) not result in the accumulation
of all available charges, instead of only those that match the selected
frequency?
In other words, would a "Tate Ambient Power Module" aka "energy from thin air"
circuit, basically a very sensitive diode rectifier with collector capacitor,
not produce more usefull potential than a crystal radio?

Regards,
Koen

I need to get some information about those receivers in order to get free energy from the air.

Quote from: @gadgetmall
Yep Slayer its possible to put a transformer on that output to boost it . I understand that if you can't find a Crystal earphone (60's 70's) you can use an old telephone ear set and put a transformer on it to hear thru the piezo tele ear piece so i guess this is enuff to put a diode and and see what it produces.

That would be good to know. How to boost that energy I mean.

Quote from: @wilbynebriated
hi slayer, jesus and i talked a bit about this back at the start of the thread. i had showed an aircore coil from my crystal radio in a jt circuit to demonstrate that a ferrite core was not needed. jesus thought i was powering the jt from radio waves at first. he expressed a desire to be able to light an led with a non battery powered crystal radio. the idea was mulled over and i suggested he use a led in place of the germanium diode as well as using a bifilar crystal radio coil so the voltage/current could be stepped up or down as needed. i like the idea of using the output to power a jt, i think a bifilar crystal coil would work best in this case also.
red leds and schottky diodes work well in crystal radios in place of the germanium. i can repost the crystal radio circuit with the bifilar coil if you want, the coil can be wound on an empty toilet paper roll. it works very well.

Hi @wilbynebriated

Quote from: @innovation
well i guess i have a few hall sencers .... round

last night i found a aa to cell fone charger at ramma for 2 bucks

puts 4.5 v dc ... works good for a supply ...

congrats jesus ...

getting intresting now

ist

Thank you @ist

Quote from: @koen1
I thought the entire idea of the crystal radio was to use a very sensitive germanium diode
in order to utilise the extremely weak signals... And since red LEDs and schottkys tend
to need much higher voltages to work, I would expect a crystal set with them instead
of the Ge diode to be a lot less effective with weak input signals...
... but I suppose they can work if the coils transform the weak input to a higher
voltage pulse in a JT variation that merely uses the crystal set to get input.
It's a good idea to try anyway.

Still, I wonder which producs more, a fullblown crystal set circuit, or the
relatively simple "Tate Ambient Power Module" (which is in fact a simple
rectifyier using sensitive Ge diodes to catch even the smallest fluctuations).
I wonder since a crystal set is basically a Tate module with a tuned/tubeable
LC circuit attached...

Anyone?

Thank you @koen1!
I am interested on building one of those energy receivers.

Quote from: @wilbyinebriated
really. you are correct in that germanium diodes are hard to beat for most low frequency crystal radio designs if no bias is desired, but schottky diodes will work better without bias if higher source and load impedances are achieved.
all that aside, put 10uA bias (easy to get, be clever) on a schottky and it's the clear winner by a long shot. red leds need bias and are really only ok for low freq. but hey, don't take my word for it, build one and try different diodes. expectations can easily be confirmed or dismissed this way.

I am interested on the crystal radio receiver too.

Quote from: @gadgetmall
i will be posting the schemitic as soon as i can draw one up . Every time i post one there is always something backwards or missing and i have to be corrected . I will take My time this time and make sure i draw it correctly then have Nieves Look at and see if see anything that looks wrong . I am getting used to a circuit program . Building it is one thing , putting it on paper is another ..

We will be waiting for that schematic!

Quote from: Mk1 on February 20, 2009, 04:35:47 PM
@jesus and gadget

Congratulation ! great work !

@all

Great thing are happening here lest not forget the power of the collective mind !
I am really proud of all of you! And for all your work and faith.
We did not get confused in 200 years old laws, but made our own laws !

Thank to all of you!

@ist

Real nice , and great picture !

This site is so busy , i cant see it , lol

Thank you @mk1 !

Quote from: Mk1 on February 20, 2009, 05:19:09 PM
@all

I got one other little secret , to get this , you will need to test it to understand.

To test this , you will need a brush motor , a led , and a coil ( it can be a selenoid , i use a coil from a hair clipper , real nice about a 1000 feet 30 gage wire coil.

Ok not take the motor and connect to led , hand turn the motor, yes the led light but the motor will get harder to turn , because of the feedback to it. Not put a coil in series with the led , now the motor turns freely and led light.

Whit that coil now it is possible to run a dc motor from a cap , and keep the cap charged with the jt.

Btw , the clipper coil gives me over 120 volts ac , when i use it on my bedini.

It is a little difficult to understand. But I am looking for something to do now. I will try it.

Quote from: @innovation
here is a picture of the mk2 hooked up working ...

i can add the bridges ... without effect to the unit ...

next i will hook up the crank jobbie curcuit ...

ist

Nice work!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 20, 2009, 07:41:55 PM

here is the unit as it sits just bout to go at the rest of it this is the entire GIZMO

ist!!

im going to add 2 more pictures i want to see who will guess there importance ...

gadget or mk1 you dont count ;D 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 20, 2009, 10:38:12 PM

So, I tried a new setup with similar results. And I was wondering, since Stefan disabled viewing profiles because of scammers; Jesus posted some circuit diagrams of his innovations - I was wondering if any of you would care to repost these or your new ideas.

My latest setup involved a free coil around which a second path coil was wound - ie, the ferrite core was replaced with a copper coil, and this was then wound with a smaller wire. The basic output of the LED didn't change, so i've assumed that my first setup was just as bad is this latest one.

I would post a diagram or image, but it's not looking that great right now.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on February 20, 2009, 10:44:28 PM

Here's my first attempt at a circuit.. I may be measuring the draw wrong. I'm pretty new to electronics, but I am a very good computer programmer. I want to learn electronics. I measured 3.57ma across a 10ohm resistor. I am also using a 35v 10uf cap, 60turn primary with a 40turn secondary in a 1 inch toroid. 2.2k resistor linking primary and secondary winding. The led is a 28,500mcd 20ma 3.5v-4.0v 10mm. The transistor is an NPN 2n3904.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 21, 2009, 01:49:32 AM

@all

this is a quote from this great link http://www.gutenberg.org/files/15617/15617-h/15617-h.htm

Current and Voltage Ratios. In a well-designed induction coil the energy in the secondary, i.e., the induced current, is for all practical purposes equal to that of the primary current, yet the values of the voltage and the amperage of the induced current may vary widely from the values of the voltage and the amperage of the primary current. With simple periodic currents, such as the commercial alternating lighting currents, the ratio between the voltage in the primary and that in the secondary will be equal to the ratio of the number of turns in the primary to the number of turns in the secondary. Since the energy in the two circuits will be practically the same, it follows that the ratio between the current in the primary and that in the secondary will be equal to the ratio of the number of turns in the secondary to the number of turns in the primary. In telephony, where the currents are not simple periodic currents, and where the variations in current strength take place at different rates, such a law as that just stated does not hold for all cases; but it may be stated in general that the induced currents will be of higher voltage and smaller current strength than those of the primary in all coils where the secondary winding has a greater number of turns than the primary, and vice versÃ¢.

Now are you a positive guy or not(sorry Jeanna) , if yes then what is missing here!

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 21, 2009, 02:43:41 AM

@ All:

Man! I am behind on this topic again and I was only away for less than 1 day!!!!! Again, I feel real sorry for Jeanna upon her return. I will catch back up and answer/respond to any posts directed toward me.

I have been working on my Bedini motor tonight and it is almost ready for the smoke test.

@ MK1:

Man, I read that about three times and I can't understand it. I will try it again in the morning. Very interesting information though. I love when things say this will always happen.....except sometimes. I think we are working with the sometimes here. (The exceptions) Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 21, 2009, 02:56:10 AM

Quote from: Goat on February 19, 2009, 09:06:25 PM
@ Pirate and All

There's been mentioned of super caps throughout the thread so I thought I'd share a thought with you all, I was at the electronic store to get some parts and big caps here in Canada are OUTRAGEOUSLY EXPENSIVE so I decided to forgo that part of the purchase. On my way home I remembered seeing some bass stiffener super caps at Walmart and decided that for the price it would be cheaper than getting large caps and more versatile across different projects to use one of those instead :)

Here's a picture of it on a gadgetmall bedini fan type setup.

Walmart has supercaps? That is a large cap and I have never seen anything like that at our local Walmart super center. what department was that in? I will go back over there and check it out. I have to admit I would not have been looking for any over there so this is a great tip. Thanks.!!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 21, 2009, 04:28:45 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 21, 2009, 02:56:10 AM
Walmart has supercaps? That is a large cap and I have never seen anything like that at our local Walmart super center. what department was that in? I will go back over there and check it out. I have to admit I would not have been looking for any over there so this is a great tip. Thanks.!!

Bill

LOL, I think walmart sells these supercaps in the automotive audio section. They even have a digital voltage readout on them. It's a stereophile's capacitor. ..it supposedly keeps you lights from flickering when the bass hits.

btw, you look like a FED in your pictures Pirate.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 21, 2009, 04:54:54 AM

@ jadaro2600:

Really? Thanks. I just thought he added those to the top of the cap. I will be going to the automotive/stereo section of Walmart soon. Thank you for this information.

I look like a Fed? In what pics? Oh, you mean the ones on youtube that are the same as my avatar that we can't see anymore. That is a still shot from a video I did about LisaNova over almost two years ago on youtube. It was one of my first videos. She told me she liked it. (She is almost famous on youtube and was on Mad TV for a bit)

Thank you again.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 21, 2009, 06:23:12 AM

@all

i can't believe how many Elite member are now on this tread, but wait its just the regulars , Great job again, i hate to say it again but success for all!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 21, 2009, 09:05:09 AM

i have one of those caps ... ;D

i did a demo of my cam unit chargeing it lol

yep 50 bucks at walmart ...

there is a vid on youtube of me doing this ...

im gonna tune up the mk2 ...

yes it recharges ALL BATTERY UNITS IN THE SYSTEM ...

and i will try some crystal diodes ... they are a much higher resistance.. almost 1700 ohm ;D

as the ones im currently useing are round 500 ohm

this makes a BIG DIFF as i currently know ;)

and wate till we get into high freq high voltage ... the DIODES are VERRY IMPORTANT!!! ;D

IST!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on February 21, 2009, 09:09:53 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 17, 2009, 04:56:29 PM
:

Have a look at the above video. This fellow says that we can double the amount of back emf by using a few tricks. This may well apply to our research here. Check out his other videos as well because he explains how this works. See what you think and let me know. Thanks. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zP4dfxXhxxg&feature=channel This video, he charges 4 batteries with only 2 batteries.

Bill

It looks to me like this same thing can be done with a JT

As I understand it the motor serves as a small coil and a source of pulses.

A JT creates pulses alot faster than the motor , If the JT was pulsing a small coil placed where the motor is in the video

Anyone have any ideas about how to tune the extra coilI ?
I am thinking that a coil wound the same as the JT coil should be a good place to start

My idea would be kind of like the darlington idea ......except rather than a pair of transistors it would have a pair of coils

I think it would run kind of like the circuit in this thread.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3972.0

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on February 21, 2009, 09:55:26 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 21, 2009, 01:49:32 AM
@all

this is a quote from this great link http://www.gutenberg.org/files/15617/15617-h/15617-h.htm

Current and Voltage Ratios. In a well-designed induction coil the energy in the secondary, i.e., the induced current, is for all practical purposes equal to that of the primary current, yet the values of the voltage and the amperage of the induced current may vary widely from the values of the voltage and the amperage of the primary current. With simple periodic currents, such as the commercial alternating lighting currents, the ratio between the voltage in the primary and that in the secondary will be equal to the ratio of the number of turns in the primary to the number of turns in the secondary. Since the energy in the two circuits will be practically the same, it follows that the ratio between the current in the primary and that in the secondary will be equal to the ratio of the number of turns in the secondary to the number of turns in the primary. In telephony, where the currents are not simple periodic currents, and where the variations in current strength take place at different rates, such a law as that just stated does not hold for all cases; but it may be stated in general that the induced currents will be of higher voltage and smaller current strength than those of the primary in all coils where the secondary winding has a greater number of turns than the primary, and vice versÃ¢.

Yes, that sounds like the standard "law"...
What I find most interesting about the passage is the remark about telephony;
I suppose this refers to the seemingly chaotic interference patterns that led
to the discovery of fractals (Mandelbrot?), which was a direct result of a
study into these interference phenomena in the phone lines.

What's missing? I'm not sure... Do you mean they don't mention self inductance
(emf effects) perhaps? Surely that phenomenon is also described on that site?

@all: I pulled apart a little DC motor and ripped one of the three prongs off
like the guy in the "charging 2 batteries from 1" youtube video did to turn
it into a pulse motor. It runs a bit unsteadily but it does run, and according to
my multimeter produces 30kHz pulses (give or take a few kHz).
I thought this interesting as my meter says the modified camera curcuits
I use to play with CFLs also produce a frequency in the same range.
Have not yet built the simple 6-battery setup the guy shows so I can't
attest to the "splitting the positive" yet, nor have I tried hooking a JT up
to either input or output side of the motor yet. I have noticed that the motor
slows down and often halts when my meter probes are attached, while
it doesn't when the meter is not hooked up, so the meter seems to mess
up the pulse action a bit...
Anyone for some suggestions? :) Always welcome.

regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 21, 2009, 10:54:01 AM

i have tackeled the tuneing ...

and i discover with my cores that if i drop 1 turn on my jt my volts go to 16.35 vdc through the crystal bridges..

and i can turn it any where in the 1k -0 range and it does not drop below 16vdc as well my jt led is bright ...

i used in this new ring for tuneing the core a 3 turn jt and 7 x 7 mk2 secondary inter twined ... ;)

ist

my last unit b4 this one is draining the secondaries right now after runing 8 hours.. on that duracell the secondairy batteries were fully charged ... ;D i have been burning 6 leds in the units for 2 hours now and they are still bright ... ;D 8)

they were charged with the 4 mk2 secondaries off my jt ring ... the secondaires were putting out 4.20 vdc ;D

in the new one there 16 vdc ... new should charge quicker ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on February 21, 2009, 11:00:13 AM

Quote from: Koen1 on February 21, 2009, 09:55:26 AM
I have noticed that the motor
slows down and often halts when my meter probes are attached, while
it doesn't when the meter is not hooked up, so the meter seems to mess
up the pulse action a bit...
Anyone for some suggestions? :) Always welcome.

regards,
Koen

Koen

do you have anything on the shaft of your motor ?

In the video he had a good sized white rectangular thing on the shaft .
At first I thought it was just to make the rotation more visable .........but it is much bigger than is necessary for that ......I am thinking it is working as a flywheel . The pulsing is what is needed from the motor ......The mechanical power it puts out is no longer important .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on February 21, 2009, 11:03:02 AM

Double post deleated

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 21, 2009, 02:56:48 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on February 20, 2009, 10:38:12 PM
My latest setup involved a free coil around which a second path coil was wound - ie, the ferrite core was replaced with a copper coil, and this was then wound with a smaller wire. The basic output of the LED didn't change, so i've assumed that my first setup was just as bad is this latest one.

Further explanation: The red coil is wrapped around a green coil on the inside. There is no ferrite core. The camera flash is overcoming the light from the LED..obviously. The gage of the red wire is higher than the green wire. The red wire is acting as the pass through voltage collector. I haven't tried to reverse the configuration with regard to which one is collecting voltage.

Any suggestion on how to measure the power consumption and where?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 21, 2009, 03:31:21 PM

Quote from: Koen1 on February 21, 2009, 09:55:26 AM
Yes, that sounds like the standard "law"...
What I find most interesting about the passage is the remark about telephony;
I suppose this refers to the seemingly chaotic interference patterns that led
to the discovery of fractals (Mandelbrot?), which was a direct result of a
study into these interference phenomena in the phone lines.

What's missing? I'm not sure... Do you mean they don't mention self inductance
(emf effects) perhaps? Surely that phenomenon is also described on that site?

@all: I pulled apart a little DC motor and ripped one of the three prongs off
like the guy in the "charging 2 batteries from 1" youtube video did to turn
it into a pulse motor. It runs a bit unsteadily but it does run, and according to
my multimeter produces 30kHz pulses (give or take a few kHz).
I thought this interesting as my meter says the modified camera curcuits
I use to play with CFLs also produce a frequency in the same range.
Have not yet built the simple 6-battery setup the guy shows so I can't
attest to the "splitting the positive" yet, nor have I tried hooking a JT up
to either input or output side of the motor yet. I have noticed that the motor
slows down and often halts when my meter probes are attached, while
it doesn't when the meter is not hooked up, so the meter seems to mess
up the pulse action a bit...
Anyone for some suggestions? :) Always welcome.

regards,
Koen

The part that is missing is about more than 1 secondary coil, all coil have the same current.

@ist

Good work! i got something else for you ! Where are you!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 21, 2009, 04:09:19 PM

@all

I finished reading the posts just now.

Welcome new members!!

Welcome @resonanceman
Long time no see you. Since the electrinium.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 21, 2009, 04:38:45 PM

something else i like to say .... ;D

my secondary recoveries are STILL BURNING 6 LEDS ..... ;D

they are not drained it has been over 8 hours!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

lol

ist

ok guys it is time for everyone to catch up

in the jt mk2 style i was tuneing i had constant 16 v for the last many hours on my out put with my jt led lit bright...................

i removed the jt led WHAT WAS THE RESULT?!?!?!?!?

LOL

65 VDC instant jump across my secondaries ... ;D ;D 8)

NOW I WILL RE TUNE IT 8) WITH THE 15 TURN 1K POT TO FIND THE PEEK VOLTAGE OUTPUT

MY UNIT JUST PEEKED 76VDC ;D ;D

if i could get the voltage to 110 vdc it will light the cfl un mooded ... as i currently beleave ;D 8)

the reason i say this is because i just lit a 7w led that uses 110vac un modded .....

the thing is i have over 30 of thease exactly the same toroide core ;D ;D :P

i will be able to tune it right up

yes the bulbs still burn im draining out the batteries compleatly dead then i will repeate the test on a TUNNED TOROIDE

AND SEE HOW LONG THEY TAKE TO RECHARGE FROM 0 RESERVED POWER

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on February 21, 2009, 06:02:40 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on February 21, 2009, 04:38:45 PM
something else i like to say .... ;D

my secondary recoveries are STILL BURNING 6 LEDS ..... ;D

they are not drained it has been over 8 hours!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

lol

ist

ok guys it is time for everyone to catch up

Congratulations :)

I am working on catching up.

I ordered parts for some JTs I should have enough stuff for a dozen or so ........ except for wire and toroids ....... anyone have a link for a toroid that works well?

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 21, 2009, 06:02:49 PM

@ist, look forward to any new pictures of your circuits in action! :)

..hehe, we're on the Pi page now. Aww... atleast, we were on the Pi page. Can someone clarify for me the reasoning behind bridging the terminals with a cap in this diagram?

I don't see what the point is. If there is a newer diagram available, please link me to it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 21, 2009, 06:08:54 PM

Gary:

Electronics goldmine has them 1" OD x 1/2" thick....5 for $1.00. Very good price. That is where I got most of mine.

http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G6683

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 21, 2009, 06:32:17 PM

ok here is a pic of the unit that has been drainging 10 hours from a 8 hour charge at 4.20vdc from my mk2 coil driven from a aa battery

;D

ist

here is another picture of the mk2 coil 3 turn putting out 66vdc

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 21, 2009, 07:02:46 PM

@ist

Great job tuning you toroid, so you say 76 volts dc for each pickup coil ? so 4 time 76volts dc . maybe a 2n3055 could get you close to 100 volts.

Great!

Mark

I think the proverbial box is broken !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 21, 2009, 07:15:31 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 21, 2009, 07:02:46 PM
@ist

Great job tuning you toroid, so you say 76 volts dc for each pickup coil ? so 4 time 76volts dc . maybe a 2n3055 could get you close to 100 volts.

Great!

Mark

I think the proverbial box is broken !

YES!!

in my above picture it is the same aa battery that recharged the unit lastnight and the voltage of it has droped since i first tuned it

i am rewinding a new toroide the same as the one i have been tuneing ... ;D

i will take some clear pics of it in operation once built and TUNED :)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on February 21, 2009, 07:21:44 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on February 21, 2009, 06:02:49 PM
@ist, look forward to any new pictures of your circuits in action! :)

..hehe, we're on the Pi page now. Aww... atleast, we were on the Pi page. Can someone clarify for me the reasoning behind bridging the terminals with a cap in this diagram?

I don't see what the point is. If there is a newer diagram available, please link me to it.

jadaro

As I understand it the JT draws power from the battery in very short bursts ...... when the battery is low that short time span would limit the power available ..........so the cap is trickle charged and the transistor gets access to all the current in a very short time .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 21, 2009, 09:02:46 PM

OMG ...... LOL

:o

12 hours now and the darn batteries are STILL NOT DEAD lol

what is going on ..... lol 4.2vdc .... a untuned coil with ou results.... i should be able to do this 20 times b4 that battery is compleatly dead ...

the supply aa

well

cant waite till i finsh all the mk2 coils... 1 turn 2 turn 3 turn 4 turn and 5 turn ... all with the same secondary 7x7

ist!

i will add a pic of the unit still lit up ;D 8)

oh yea i still have a fully charged jt led recovery battery ;) lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 21, 2009, 09:21:13 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on February 21, 2009, 06:02:49 PM
@ist, look forward to any new pictures of your circuits in action! :)

..hehe, we're on the Pi page now. Aww... atleast, we were on the Pi page. Can someone clarify for me the reasoning behind bridging the terminals with a cap in this diagram?

I don't see what the point is. If there is a newer diagram available, please link me to it.

Here you go.. Build away . the best jt on the Planet or Internet for the Home Experimenter)as far as power consumption .and if your Into A fugi Camera Circuit i ran mine and broke my own record of running a clf for 18 hours straight and the 200 leds for another 8 hours . HHHMMM Add a Solar Panel for a day Charge and get a month or two of light not a bad Circuit if i say so myself !you can thank Everyone here for it . !!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: RAF on February 22, 2009, 12:12:31 AM

sorry but i have always had a hard time with this circuit.

The numbering on the T1 block diagram do not coincide with the numbering in the circuit
diagram.

As far as any fugi camera boards that i have.
I have taken apart a transformer to count the winding but using a ohm meter can confirm this.

I have changed the numbering on the block diagram to match the circuit diagram..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 22, 2009, 12:47:21 AM

progress report lol :D

well guys the darn little secondary recovery batteries are STILL GOING they are getting real dim but they are still putting out light it has been around 16 hours

sheesh ...

now if i can cut down on my recharge time it should be no problem with a tuned unit .... that puts out 30 vdc or more lol ;)

so i finished 2 more mk2 coils all on the same toroire cores

i have the 2 turn done and the 3 turn and the 4 turn just the 1 turn and the 5 turn left to do ;D

i will take a group picture for everyone ;D

we shall call this the MK2 FAMILY lol

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 22, 2009, 01:07:59 AM

Well, for the most part, I've been using a core without ferrite - I've wound a coil using 26 gage wire and then wound that toroidal coil with 30 gage wire. This blocking oscillator is what I use in the jtc.

Can someone please explain how to measure the usage of current in the jtc? ..where should i measure current draw?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 22, 2009, 02:19:33 AM

@ jadaro2600

The ampmeter goes in series with the battery as in following. Transistor was actually 2N3739 (it is wrong in diagram) but any transistor should work. Battery current can be adjusted by varying the base resistor value.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 22, 2009, 02:29:52 AM

@Ist,
Hmmm 2 photos at the top of post 313.

OK there are 2 identical shake torch pcbs and contents thereof. ;)
Without reading the posts further down, I think you are charging the Hi V Caps in parallel using the JT to do it. :)

I must get a couple of 3v X 3watt hi brightness LED torches to play with soon.

General Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 22, 2009, 02:53:57 AM

Quote from: electricme on February 22, 2009, 02:29:52 AM
@Ist,
Hmmm 2 photos at the top of post 313.

OK there are 2 identical shake torch pcbs and contents thereof. ;)
Without reading the posts further down, I think you are charging the Hi V Caps in parallel using the JT to do it. :)

I must get a couple of 3v X 3watt hi brightness LED torches to play with soon.

General Jim

there batteries in the NOMA shake it flashlight ...i wish they were BIG SUPERCAPS..... they have 2 coils in the flash light ... so there is 2 rectifiers in them going to 1 battery ...

then there is 2 discharge settings 1 led wich will be OUTPUT and 3 leds = 1 OUT PUT AND 2 FEEDBACKS 1 push of the button or 2 ;D 8)

lol

i can say i quit counting the discharge time ..... there is still light there ....... hummmmmmmmm

8)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 22, 2009, 03:25:25 AM

@ Ist,
further hmmmmm :-\

I have a hand wind generator flashlight, 1 button turn on unit.
Press button once = 1 LED lights
Press Button again LED off
Press button again = 3 LEDs on
Press button again all LEDs off.

So Ist, you can select the "charge rate"? Lo or Hi?

@ hazens1,
Nice photo of your 1st working JT replication, well done,
and welcome to the group sir.
BTW don't know if the others picked this up, but thats a nice looking big 10mm LED ;D

ps the "others" are so involved they forgot their welcome manners he he he.

General Jim

@all
Q whats total frustration?
A Packing 2 torids to wind this weekend and forget to pack the wire, grrrrr

>:(

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 22, 2009, 08:32:22 AM

Welcome to all newcomers!!!!

@electricme

Those things happen a lot!
Forgetting an important piece of equipment or an important part.

Just take it easy! And keep your mind busy, you'll be alright.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on February 22, 2009, 10:16:17 AM

Quote from: resonanceman on February 21, 2009, 11:00:13 AM
Koen

do you have anything on the shaft of your motor ?

In the video he had a good sized white rectangular thing on the shaft .
At first I thought it was just to make the rotation more visable .........but it is much bigger than is necessary for that ......I am thinking it is working as a flywheel . The pulsing is what is needed from the motor ......The mechanical power it puts out is no longer important .

No, I do not have anything on the motor shaft, it is bare.
I also noticed the white thing on there in the videos, but I'm not sure what it is for.
A second motor I have here, one I have not pulled apart yet, has a black thing that looks like a small pulley
or something attached to the shaft, so first I thought the guy in the vids also had something like that attached.
And I find it difficult to give the axle a good spin with my fingers, but I suppose with a small wheel attached
it would be a lot easier to give the thing a twirl to start the motor spinning, so I have considered that that may
be the only reason for such a fairly large thing on the shaft.
On the other hand, the thing does run a bit unsteady, which is not surprising with 1 of its 3 prongs removed
so only 2/3 of the drive coils work... I suppose a little flywheel could even that out...
So indeed, a flywheel is a good option for the thingy on the shaft.
I'll see if I can't find a little wheel to fix on there.

But perhaps this stuff on a pulse motor is more in place in the "feedback to source" thread?
I'll move my pulse motor remarks there, as to not clutter this JT thread further.

@all: I have decided I'm going to make an air-core JT now.
What do you guys think is the best way: a single wire primary with a bifilar secondary wound
around the primary, or one single trifilar coil where one wire acts as the primary and the other
two as secondary?

@IST: remember the carbon rod thread? What happens if we use JT ring cores around
the rod? Can we run a JT with its efficient LED lighting tricks, and at the same time
use the B field in the center of the rings to induce pulses in a rod, like the carbon thing?
What do you think?
(anyone else is of course very welcome to reply too eh :))

kind regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Bob Smith on February 22, 2009, 11:36:35 AM

Quote@all: I have decided I'm going to make an air-core JT now.
What do you guys think is the best way: a single wire primary with a bifilar secondary wound
around the primary, or one single trifilar coil where one wire acts as the primary and the other
two as secondary?

@ Koen,
Groundloop's RE battery charger works on a trifilar air-core setup. Great RE spikes. Schematic here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=4057.msg75477#msg75477
I don't see why the same principle wouldn't work for the JT. I think they're both variations on the same principle.
B

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 22, 2009, 01:07:54 PM

Quote from: Koen1 on February 22, 2009, 10:16:17 AM
No, I do not have anything on the motor shaft, it is bare.
I also noticed the white thing on there in the videos, but I'm not sure what it is for.
A second motor I have here, one I have not pulled apart yet, has a black thing that looks like a small pulley
or something attached to the shaft, so first I thought the guy in the vids also had something like that attached.
And I find it difficult to give the axle a good spin with my fingers, but I suppose with a small wheel attached
it would be a lot easier to give the thing a twirl to start the motor spinning, so I have considered that that may
be the only reason for such a fairly large thing on the shaft.
On the other hand, the thing does run a bit unsteady, which is not surprising with 1 of its 3 prongs removed
so only 2/3 of the drive coils work... I suppose a little flywheel could even that out...
So indeed, a flywheel is a good option for the thingy on the shaft.
I'll see if I can't find a little wheel to fix on there.

But perhaps this stuff on a pulse motor is more in place in the "feedback to source" thread?
I'll move my pulse motor remarks there, as to not clutter this JT thread further.

@all: I have decided I'm going to make an air-core JT now.
What do you guys think is the best way: a single wire primary with a bifilar secondary wound
around the primary, or one single trifilar coil where one wire acts as the primary and the other
two as secondary?

@IST: remember the carbon rod thread? What happens if we use JT ring cores around
the rod? Can we run a JT with its efficient LED lighting tricks, and at the same time
use the B field in the center of the rings to induce pulses in a rod, like the carbon thing?
What do you think?
(anyone else is of course very welcome to reply too eh :))

kind regards,
Koen

i think i have a few carbon rods :)

i will have to try it..... makes sence tho ..

i will finish the mk2 family .. and few other things i have on the go first tho ...

my leds in the unit under test are .. finally out ... the batteries are drained it took over 20 hours ....

at some point today i will recharge the secondary batteries and repete the test ... with the same aa battery

i have all the mk2 coils wound 1 turn to 5 turn primary jt all have 7x7 ... secondaries so

today i will build crystal fullwave bridges for all of the coils ... each coil requires 5 fullwave rectifiers ... that is 20 diodes x 5 or 6 coils :o

i was ya know maybe thinking i would run the mk2 family torides off the secondary of my last unit 8)

1 coil feeding 5 or 6 i have not decided yet ... most likely 6

ist!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on February 22, 2009, 02:09:51 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 21, 2009, 06:08:54 PM
Gary:

Electronics goldmine has them 1" OD x 1/2" thick....5 for $1.00. Very good price. That is where I got most of mine.

http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G6683

Bill

Bill

Thanks for the link.

I found a few other things on that site that I have been looking for .

I saw that they have super caps there.
Do you know if super caps can be put in series to get a higher effective voltage?

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on February 22, 2009, 03:06:05 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on February 22, 2009, 02:09:51 PM
Bill

Thanks for the link.

I found a few other things on that site that I have been looking for .

I saw that they have super caps there.
Do you know if super caps can be put in series to get a higher effective voltage?

gary

I found something else that might be useful for someone here.

http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16054

"unfinished " Kodak camera boards ...... it looks to me like all the electronics are there .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 22, 2009, 03:56:48 PM

here is a picture of my crystal rectifier board

there is 120 diodes in it 5 groups of 4 per coil this will do 6 coils ..

30 full wave bridge rectifiers....

ist

the funny thing is i have 30 batteries too :) really i have a few hundred .... but 30 will do for now ...

they are from cordless fones ... i got them with all the surplus radio shack stuff i bought months ago for 7 bucks .... literly 7 garbage bags full

the white kitchen ones ... a buck a bag ... now thats my kinda deal :) lol

any how 1 small foot step at a time .....

;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 22, 2009, 04:00:12 PM

@ist

Thank for all your work, great replication, can't wait to see.

@newcomers

Welcome to the treat!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 22, 2009, 04:26:39 PM

Quote from: RAF on February 22, 2009, 12:12:31 AM
sorry but i have always had a hard time with this circuit.

The numbering on the T1 block diagram do not coincide with the numbering in the circuit
diagram.

As far as any fugi camera boards that i have.
I have taken apart a transformer to count the winding but using a ohm meter can confirm this.

I have changed the numbering on the block diagram to match the circuit diagram..

Thank you for taking the time to correct that transformer . I was wondering if anybody else caught that . It matches another transformer on a different fugi circuit . but in essence the connection are the same circuit wise . Basically remove the 220 ohm resistor install a pot put a cap across the the pot resistance and use one end plus the wiper and replace the position of the 220 . then short out the Diode (theres only one on aa fugi ) and output is where the HV cap was .. Simple . No ?
Best regards .
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 22, 2009, 04:35:19 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on February 22, 2009, 03:06:05 PM

I found something else that might be useful for someone here.

http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16054

"unfinished " Kodak camera boards ...... it looks to me like all the electronics are there .

gary

I got three of these . They put out voltage but wont light a clf yet . Lets work on em and other camera circuits like poloroid too . I also got a couple of those little Hv modules they hand . They WILL work down to 1 volt and put out a great deal of power . I also will try to modify this one as it looks very dependable
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 22, 2009, 04:35:47 PM

Deleted double post ( how did that happen ?)
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 22, 2009, 04:36:19 PM

Quote from: xee2 on February 22, 2009, 02:19:33 AM
@ jadaro2600

The ampmeter goes in series with the battery as in following. Transistor was actually 2N3739 (it is wrong in diagram) but any transistor should work. Battery current can be adjusted by varying the base resistor value.

Thank you, it's been a real test to try and get a diagram out of 316 pages of forum posts. And, it seems as though the circuit is using almost nothing.

I posted to following on another thread and though it might have relevance here:

Quote from: jadaro2600 on January 13, 2009, 10:08:40 PM
Thankyou all for your replies..

I've looked into the youtube video ..perhaps we're thinking along the same lines; or maybe not. the jtc looks a bit strange, but i'm a newbie.

I'm attempting to create an equivalent brightness using AC as would be with DC but using less over all power.

Intrinsically, generating AC will have it's drawbacks, or losses involved. etc. I've read that a diode will act as a capacitor given a reversal of normal current flow, but in reversal situations there is heat dissipated. Heat = loss of usable electricity.

I was thinking about half the current would due if a LED could be set into a resonant mode. The circumstances being right ..a resonant LED wouldn't overheat and the eyes would smooth out the frequency... and hopefully not cause seizures.

Given the right forward current and perhaps a reverse current less than that of the forward current and the LED could be brought to resonance.

TK - indeed, 30ma is enough to blind someone using the right kind of LED; i think 20ma is sufficient - especially for green LEDs.

..I would try not to mention the JT circuit over the phone, just say the name out loud and you sound like a criminal. "Yea, i've been working on the JTC". Word of warning. LOL is this one of those slammers, where they fly in with the helicopters?

Quote from: resonanceman on February 22, 2009, 02:09:51 PM
Bill

Thanks for the link.

I found a few other things on that site that I have been looking for .

I saw that they have super caps there.
Do you know if super caps can be put in series to get a higher effective voltage?

gary

Putting your capacitors in series will actually cut the effective capacitance in half, don't know about the voltage, but it stands to reason - if there are two - If i'm fully aware of the capacitors' function at least.

You would actually just use the joule thief itself to increase the voltage. Connect capacitors in parallel.

- - - - - - - - - - -

I still don't understand how to measure the current being used! ..I've tried measuring across from the positive terminal of the battery to where it attaches to the board and i get no reading. I've measured across the resistor and get .6 microamps (ua) with similar results for measuring across the coil connected in series with the resistor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 22, 2009, 04:42:59 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on February 22, 2009, 04:36:19 PM
Thank you, it's been a real test to try and get a diagram out of 316 pages of forum posts. And, it seems as though the circuit is using almost nothing.

I posted to following on another thread and though it might have relevance here:
Putting your capacitors in series will actually cut the effective capacitance in half, don't know about the voltage, but it stands to reason - if there are two - If i'm fully aware of the capacitors' function at least.

You would actually just use the joule thief itself to increase the voltage. Connect capacitors in parallel.

- - - - - - - - - - -

I still don't understand how to measure the current being used! ..I've tried measuring across from the positive terminal of the battery to where it attaches to the board and i get no reading. I've measured across the resistor and get .6 microamps (ua) with similar results for measuring across the coil connected in series with the resistor.

Hi TO MEASURE YOUR CURRENT DRAW > PUT YOUR AMPMETER IN SERIES WITH THE BATTERY . . Simply remove the battery hook you positive from the battery to you circuit then with the negitive put one lead of you meter on the negitive of the battery and complete the circuit to you device with the other lead of your dmm.:)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on February 22, 2009, 05:52:09 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on February 22, 2009, 04:35:19 PM
I got three of these . They put out voltage but wont light a clf yet . Lets work on em and other camera circuits like poloroid too . I also got a couple of those little Hv modules they hand . They WILL work down to 1 volt and put out a great deal of power . I also will try to modify this one as it looks very dependable
Gadget

Gadget

I am planning on getting a few of them .

If I am right about a JT being able to be used in place of the pulser motor one of these boards should do the job ....... Not sure how many batterys it will charge .........but ........that is what experimenting is about

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 22, 2009, 06:03:56 PM

Ok, so it's using 22ma or so. No surprises there. Apparently a fuse had blown in my ammeter.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 22, 2009, 08:20:34 PM

@all

Hi!

I see that there is a lot of activity on the thread.
I am a little behind, but eventually I will catch up.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 22, 2009, 08:54:36 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on February 22, 2009, 06:03:56 PM
Ok, so it's using 22ma or so. No surprises there. Apparently a fuse had blown in my ammeter.

Thats a good Point ! It happens all the time in mine . you were probably Measuring right if you ever stick an amp meter across a battery it will usually Blow it then and there ! Keep Testing guys .. You all are great guys and this is a A great Thread !

@ IST . Hows it Going with that new Light . ? I got a little circuit for it . it runs off a 555 timer and detects the voltage at apreset level then flops it over . Check it out !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 22, 2009, 08:59:52 PM

Why is the 2N3739 preferred over the 2N2222?

Is this a matter of switching frequency?

I also have a question about this setup with regard to that transistor: When current is flowing through the collector to the emitter, is it not flowing through the base?

Also, how do I measure the frequency - across the E C terminals?

I've edited this post several times now ... I couldn't get the low current version to work, i'll try again, maybe there are some sacrifices I could make or some switches.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 22, 2009, 09:42:23 PM

gadget i like it 8)

i have a bunch of 555 round here too

lol

but this mk2 family board ROCKS ..... ;D

ill post a sneek peek soon ;)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 22, 2009, 11:06:42 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on February 22, 2009, 02:09:51 PM
Bill

Thanks for the link.

I found a few other things on that site that I have been looking for .

I saw that they have super caps there.
Do you know if super caps can be put in series to get a higher effective voltage?

gary

Gary:

I have read in several places that you can't put any more than 3 supercaps in series without some fancy controller being involved. I have no idea why this might be but I have seen warnings to that effect on several supercap suppliers sites. Digi-Key is a better supplier for supercaps than EG. Less money for much larger caps.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 22, 2009, 11:34:19 PM

well i tuned my toroides...

i will make them all the same and go for more output ... ;D

5 turn primary jt works best ... 7x7 for my toroides... i get 106 vdc ... per coil x 4 coils / toroide x 6 toroides plus i have the jt i never mesured it yet

i will make 6 of them

ill post a pic tonight

ist!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 23, 2009, 01:08:39 AM

@ jadaro2600

Quote from: jadaro2600 on February 22, 2009, 08:59:52 PM
Why is the 2N3739 preferred over the 2N2222?

The circuit had a 2N3739 because that is what I had been using for lighting a neon bulb which required a transistor with a high Vceo to get a 100 volt output for the neon. With lower output voltages a 2N2222A should work. But I posted this circuit to answer your question about where to put the ampmeter. It was just one I picked that had an ampmeter in the diagram so you could see where to put it. I do not have time now to read this thread very often so I can not help you much. I suggest you take the time to read the older posts since they will probably answer many of your questions.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 23, 2009, 01:56:33 AM

I've got some utilities that might help with this whole affair - I'll just have to go through this thread page by page to get the jist of everything.

I appreciate your help - If i do go through all of this, I might compile it and put it in the downloads / uploads section. This may take a while though, not simple project - it would mean linearizing the entire thread, and since I want to see images - and the print functionality is already broken...I'll have to grab the thing page by page, and incorporate images.

Know any transistors that will operate in the gHz range?

SO I rebuilt what circuit I had earlier - the one pictured in this previous post, and I got the current down to 5.6ma without any noticeable change in brightness of the led. Notice my coil - there is no ferrite core; if you read my post. http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg159136#msg159136 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg159136#msg159136) ...also - I switched the red leads around and it stopped functioning, so it matters which direction the leads are facing - I'll elaborate in a later post. Any inquiries are welcome. putting more than one led in series has an interesting effect - there's none noticeable until i try to measure the current, at which point it drops down to 3.4 ma and the birghtness dims.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 23, 2009, 08:05:43 AM

@all

What about making a joule thief with a computer fan coil unchanged. Just taken out of the fan, adding the joule thief circuit to it and using it as a battery charger?

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 23, 2009, 12:06:54 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on February 23, 2009, 01:56:33 AM
I've got some utilities that might help with this whole affair - I'll just have to go through this thread page by page to get the jist of everything.

I appreciate your help - If i do go through all of this, I might compile it and put it in the downloads / uploads section. This may take a while though, not simple project - it would mean linearizing the entire thread, and since I want to see images - and the print functionality is already broken...I'll have to grab the thing page by page, and incorporate images.

Know any transistors that will operate in the gHz range?

SO I rebuilt what circuit I had earlier - the one pictured in this previous post, and I got the current down to 5.6ma without any noticeable change in brightness of the led. Notice my coil - there is no ferrite core; if you read my post. http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg159136#msg159136 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg159136#msg159136) ...also - I switched the red leads around and it stopped functioning, so it matters which direction the leads are facing - I'll elaborate in a later post. Any inquiries are welcome. putting more than one led in series has an interesting effect - there's none noticeable until i try to measure the current, at which point it drops down to 3.4 ma and the birghtness dims.

Hey 5.6 ma is very good your are getting there !. If you have the parts try a Tank on the base in series with your resistor . It will go into resonance and you will see the current drop way down and the led get brighter .
Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 23, 2009, 12:37:42 PM

here is a pic of the unit im building ...

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 23, 2009, 12:46:54 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on February 23, 2009, 12:06:54 PM
Hey 5.6 ma is very good your are getting there !. If you have the parts try a Tank on the base in series with your resistor . It will go into resonance and you will see the current drop way down and the led get brighter .
Al

By tank, I assume you mean a tank circuit? SO just bridge the resistor with a capacitor?

which i just tried, it seems to increase current usage - but my resistor is in front of my transformer relative to the transistor, you're is behind it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 23, 2009, 01:24:57 PM

@all .
Just wanted to show ya a 50 cent 20 blue led Christmas Toy light string . It supposed to run off three batterys but you know what i did :) I used a Tiny ferrite bead . I found something that had hundreds in them 11turn Bifial primary and a jeanna 5 turn secondary is enuff to light them up Bright ! and with a tank on it current draw is small 1 ma !!!!! Turn Inefficient Junk Into a very eco friendly System !!
Also the Fugi Production Line ready for kits !!!!!!! Thanks to a Good Friend who i met here on the forum and lives not to far for me and sent these . God Bless You !

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xenomorphlabs on February 23, 2009, 01:27:57 PM

@IST: Remarkably complex setup. I wonder what it will achieve!

So you are using MK2, as i understand it has 2 primary and 2 secondary coils on 1 toroid.
Do you use both primaries and feed them from different circuits? I am trying to grasp the necessity
of having 4 coils on there, i am sure it is for a good reason. Would be nice if you could explain that.
Are that 1N60s on your rectifying board?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 23, 2009, 01:28:29 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on February 23, 2009, 12:46:54 PM
By tank, I assume you mean a tank circuit? SO just bridge the resistor with a capacitor?

which i just tried, it seems to increase current usage - but my resistor is in front of my transformer relative to the transistor, you're is behind it.

Yes the 68pf cap is what i use . any other seems to increase current. A tank is a resonate circuit .a cap across the resistive part of a tiny pot is a tank circuit .Just use one end and the wiper to adjust the circuit . again it works a a number of primary's that are untuned .
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 23, 2009, 02:10:35 PM

Quote from: xenomorphlabs on February 23, 2009, 01:27:57 PM
@IST: Remarkably complex setup. I wonder what it will achieve!

So you are using MK2, as i understand it has 2 primary and 2 secondary coils on 1 toroid.
Do you use both primaries and feed them from different circuits? I am trying to grasp the necessity
of having 4 coils on there, i am sure it is for a good reason. Would be nice if you could explain that.
Are that 1N60s on your rectifying board?

it does get a little wild for wires soon lol

the mk2 has 4 secondary outputs plus i use the jt out each coil of the secondary .... is putting out 106 vdc x 4 plus the jt

we are makeing a magnetic feild real fast and colplasiping it we pay for the magnetic feild but not for the colapse so the secondaires are fed from the colapse .. it is best not to take from the source any more than you need

the diode # im not sure what they are .... sorry

i have found the same results any where in the 0-1k range....

not so freq dependent now

the white bars ... will be 30 outputs... the 2 groups of 3 rings will be driven from 2 idependent sources ..

wich are my secondaries .... on my aa powered mk2

it will be a neat unit ..

ist!

i added a 10uf cap across the source on my mk2 coils ... and i have this out put off a dead battery or almost dead ... 90.9 they all read the same ...

im useing a 2n 4401 npn transistor ... and 1k resistor ... there 4 feeds at 90.9vdc ........

have not touched the jt side yet ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on February 23, 2009, 07:27:46 PM

While testing some other configurations, I have come across a peculair combination..

I have what looks like a 5/8in ferrite toroid taken out of a computer supply wrapped 22 times 2 bifilar wind Green magnet wire from Radio Shack. Using a 2n2222 NPN transistor with a 10ohm resistor going from the coil to the base of the transistor. This is all feeding into a circuit I ripped out of a DOT-it H2O round push light that normally operates on 3 AAA's in series ~4.5v. There is a 24ohm resistor on the board with 3 white leds in series and a push button switch.

I'm using a single AA instead to power the JT to power the 3 led circuit. At first it was just as bright as when hooked up to the 3 AAA's consuming around 200ma. The battery voltage dropped from 1.625v to 0.575v in about 4 hours. The transistor was running a little hot, but no more that 150Â° F. I was suprised to see it still running with as little as 5 volts.

Then it ran for another 2 hours dropping from 0.575v to 0.425v and the transistor was now cool to the touch. I remeasured the amp draw at about 25ma. I left in on overnight at that point expecting the battery to be dead when I woke up.

Here's the amazing thing. When I woke up the voltage in the battery was at 0.422v after 9 hours and the brightness was the same as when I went to bed which is about 25% on when the battery was fresh. Then I went to work, another 9hours later the voltage is now 0.419v.

I'm pretty new to this so I have a few questions..

How can the battery voltage only drop 0.006v in 18 hours giving out so much light while appearing to run on ~20-25ma according to the meter?

I'm guessing it has something to do with the rate the circuit was oscilating at. Did the oscilation decrease as the battery drained, thus making the circuit more efficient?

How is this thing still running at such low voltage? I was expecting it to cut off at 0.7v-0.9v according to what I have read about other peoples circuits.

How come when I measure the voltage coming off the transistor it is always less than the battery, closer to the battery the smaller the resistor, but always less when the leds need way more than that to run?

Thank you for your time and wonderful research everbody!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xenomorphlabs on February 23, 2009, 08:33:47 PM

@hazens1:
That is indeed peculiar.
Battery discharge curves might not be completely linear, but this 18 hour period seems
too unusual.
First i would check the battery status of your voltage-meter (forgive me if you have done that of course)
but some people ran into weird readings just to find out that their meter was not operating accurately anymore.
Second, ... KEEP THAT BATTERY !!! ;D

Quote
Did the oscilation decrease as the battery drained, thus making the circuit more efficient?

Too bad not too many of us have oscilloscopes (me neither), that could show the frequency and
would/would not explain something.

Try to repeat the experiment )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 23, 2009, 08:57:10 PM

so far i have 4 coils wired and working with the 10uf caps all are putting out between 89 - 100vdc ..

ill keep at it i hope to wire all 120 wires into the rectifier board tonight ...

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 23, 2009, 09:57:41 PM

I'm not quite using the same setup as you all, and tanking the resistor draws more current - so I don't. I'm getting reading of 6.4ma. I use a 9.84k ohm resistor and a 10pF capacitor in parallel with a 9-50pF varicap for fine tuning. At a total of 24pF, the led seems to be as bright as it has been with other setups. If these varicaps were performing as they should be, then I wouldn't have to incorporate a 10pF ceramic disk capacitor and I could just tune it using the varicap. The real dilema is find good varicaps!

Anyone have any links? - these varicaps I just bought perform like crap!

As I said earlier - the toroid I'm using contains no ferrite and the schematic basically sticks to the original diagrams I found posted elsewhere on the internet. My main innovation is the winding of the toroid - which If i weren't soo ill right now, I might try a few different configurations.

I find that including additonal LED in series - while trying to measure the current useage, causes a low reading and a dimming of the brightness of the LEDs

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 23, 2009, 10:19:06 PM

@jadaro2600,
Hello there, I see you still have trouble with connecting a ammeter to a circuit.

Hope this helps you.

General Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on February 23, 2009, 10:28:52 PM

Even though the meter is brand new and also the batteries in it are new, I did change them out to make sure. About 10 minutes ago I disconnected the circuit from the battery and in about 120 seconds, the battery voltage went from 0.417v to 0.758v and stabilized then I hooked it back up and in about another 120 seconds it was down to 0.425v slowely crawling down to 0.420v over the next 120 seconds and now its back to 0.417v. This sure is some weird reactions. The battery is a Rayovac 1.5v AA, standard Alkaline. I'm going to let it run all night, take some measurements, then maybe I'll disconnect it and let the battery rest while I'm at work and see what happens.

I want to replicate it, but I don't have another identical toroid, I might try a larger and a smaller with the same wind and wire and compare the results.

I'm waiting on some components to try out the latest Gadget/Mk/Jeana/Fusion circuit, so right now I'm trying to learn as much as I can.

If anyone can explain how I can pick components (transistor/wind/etc..) to get the desired frequency, that would be great. My ideal circuit would oscilate at a frequency that the eye sees as a constant light, but has a high light output with a short duty to be as efficient as possible.

Quote from: xenomorphlabs on February 23, 2009, 08:33:47 PM
@hazens1:
That is indeed peculiar.
Battery discharge curves might not be completely linear, but this 18 hour period seems
too unusual.
First i would check the battery status of your voltage-meter (forgive me if you have done that of course)
but some people ran into weird readings just to find out that their meter was not operating accurately anymore.
Second, ... KEEP THAT BATTERY !!! ;D

Too bad not too many of us have oscilloscopes (me neither), that could show the frequency and
would/would not explain something.

Try to repeat the experiment )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 23, 2009, 10:30:30 PM

17ma ...it's ability to light a parallel of LED's is proportional to the capacitance in the capacitor at the bottom right. 100nf currently, although the capacitance could be a little lower and will still function, notice though that the second from the bottom LED is fidgety.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 23, 2009, 10:32:41 PM

Quote from: electricme on February 23, 2009, 10:19:06 PM
@jadaro2600,
Hello there, I see you still have trouble with connecting a ammeter to a circuit.

Hope this helps you.

General Jim

Fuse was blown, figured it out though..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 23, 2009, 10:35:20 PM

@ Gadgetmall
Thanks for posting the 555 timer IC with the diode and coil attatched.

OK D1 job is to prevent spikes from the collapsing coil from destroying the IC.
If you want to use the spikes, and save the IC, remove the D1 from its present position, and place it between + and 1 (coil terminal)
put another D between IC 3 and 2 (coil terminal)

Then solder a bridge diode for full rectification between 1 and 2 (coil terminals).

General Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 23, 2009, 10:38:56 PM

I'm having an simple issue with this circuit - why is it that electricity flows through the LED's rather than just going through the collector - emitter path? This is the only part of this circuit that doesn't make any sense to me.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 23, 2009, 10:54:28 PM

Quote from: hazens1 on February 23, 2009, 10:28:52 PM
Even though the meter is brand new and also the batteries in it are new, I did change them out to make sure. About 10 minutes ago I disconnected the circuit from the battery and in about 120 seconds, the battery voltage went from 0.417v to 0.758v and stabilized then I hooked it back up and in about another 120 seconds it was down to 0.425v slowely crawling down to 0.420v over the next 120 seconds and now its back to 0.417v. This sure is some weird reactions. The battery is a Rayovac 1.5v AA, standard Alkaline. I'm going to let it run all night, take some measurements, then maybe I'll disconnect it and let the battery rest while I'm at work and see what happens.

I want to replicate it, but I don't have another identical toroid, I might try a larger and a smaller with the same wind and wire and compare the results.

I'm waiting on some components to try out the latest Gadget/Mk/Jeana/Fusion circuit, so right now I'm trying to learn as much as I can.

If anyone can explain how I can pick components (transistor/wind/etc..) to get the desired frequency, that would be great. My ideal circuit would oscilate at a frequency that the eye sees as a constant light, but has a high light output with a short duty to be as efficient as possible.

congrats!!!!!!!

i can not waite till you figure out the osolation ;D ;D ;D 8)

i bet you charged your battery ;D

but it seams your osolation is VERRY SLOW .... you will catch my drift when you are able to do this with a cap with a tiny charge ...

i leave it there ;)

agin congrats!!!!!

ist

@ jadro2600 hz lol ever play a blue box?!?!?!?!?! :)

any how if you notice your leds will light both ways when the secondary is wound properly .... one way is standard induction transformer action .... and the other way i can light all leds/neons.... with out effect to the source .... also this is how i extract power ....

DO NOT USE THE SOURCE ...

TIP IF YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND THIS .. BUILD THE MK2 REGULAR JT ..... DOES NOT NEED TO BE TUNED TO SEE THIS EFFECT ....

8)

all 6 are working now ... all putting out 90-100vdc x 24 feeds .... jts recovery are next .... then it is just the 30 rectifiers to wire then it is done ...

8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xenomorphlabs on February 23, 2009, 11:04:31 PM

@hazens1:

QuoteIf anyone can explain how I can pick components (transistor/wind/etc..) to get the desired frequency, that would be great. My ideal circuit would oscilate at a frequency that the eye sees as a constant light, but has a high light output with a short duty to be as efficient as possible.

You might wanna inspire yourself with this new find by Lidmotor/Kubikop:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvRNuz9zx5U

@ IST:

Quotethen it is just the 30 rectifiers to wire then it is done ...

That sounds so nicely insane , "JUST" 30 rectifiers hehe ;D
I am very curious what output that will give you, i smell high amps already...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 23, 2009, 11:14:02 PM

@jadaro2600,
Sorry to hear you arn't not feeling too well just now. :(

You are doing very well so far with the JT topic.
Keep you chin up mate.

Hope you get better soon.
;)

@all
this thread is in arm chair rocking mode at hi speed lol

I had a win over the weekend, I scored a 48v dc UPS for $5 ausie, pulled it apart, water came out, it had a dead earth worm in it.
Stripped it down, washed everything in sudsy water, 4 x 12v gell cells were swollen and cracked. Pitch them. Put on verrandah 4, 3 days to dri out electronics.

Got in touch with MediTech in Toowoomba, they gave me 4 x 12v Mobile gopha chair batteries that had been recicled for free, pluss the manager gave me an extra one, it had a dint on its corner.

Assemble it all, and turn on.
No splat, and it works OK.

I bought 2 LED chaser circuit Kits and 3 New Multimeters as well.
Somehow I have missplaced my best multimeter DMM,
Bought a number of trasnsisters and a set of 400 mm long screwdrivers.
Oh yes, almost forgot, got a couple of those 1Farad batt caps to fool around with.

General Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 23, 2009, 11:19:57 PM

btw did i mention i can lite neons from a dead aa battery with thease coils... 5 turn primary 14 turn secondary

just thought i would remind you ;D

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 23, 2009, 11:38:19 PM

@Ist,
as xenomorphlabs says 30 rectifiers, ha ha, welll done Ist, if you connect them all in parallel, you might have to put 30 one ohm resisters in series with them so if one output is higher or lower, than the others it won't pull the other outputs down and over heat.:)

A bit like using 1 ohm 5Watters on the Emitters with paralleled 2n3055's.

I experimented with a CD rom drive, door tray opener motor today, soldered a RED Led on its output and spun the geared shaft, it lit the led, but the led goes to a certain brightness, then I can feel the motor loading up as I go faster, but the LED stays at 1 brightness level.

Make a good toy wind generator this thing.

General Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 24, 2009, 12:03:34 AM

@all
I pulled apart the centeral motor that spins up the CD in a CD Rom Drive.
Here it is.

There are 9 poles,
What can we do with this one?

There is 3 x IF4 surface mount black thingies here as well. They have 4 legs on them.

General Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 24, 2009, 12:48:04 AM

Kudos to those who had the idea of suing a pre-existing fan winding for a res coil - truth is, any transformer will do it all just a matter of how you wire into it.

I might go get one of the camp-lights with the florescent bulbs in it and take it apart - see what's going on in those things...poke around.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 24, 2009, 03:14:09 AM

damm jim that is a nice one i never took apart the cd rom motor b4 im on it tho ;D ;D

can always use a hand full of those lol 8)

sheesh JIM THIS IS YOUR FAULT .... LOL

now i need 30 of em lol

to increase some amparage .... ;)

ist

btw yes all 60 out put wires are on the board now just the ac wires ... 60 of them ..

4 INPUT WIRES ..... 60 OUTPUT WIRES .... ;D YEA NOW IT GETS INSANE LOL

@MK1

looks like i need a mk6 to drive this puppy a little better ;) 8)

if i do this i have a bigger ring i will use as well then i will use idependent 3v batteries.. x 6 1 for each ... just need a voltage devider .. simple curcuit .. thanks mk1 lol

looks like tommorow night for the new supply ring ... at the earlyest ... 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 24, 2009, 04:45:38 AM

@ Ist
Thankyou for your kind remarks, if you do get to pull one of the CD drive motors apart, they are a 3 phase configuration, each phase has a 4 legered SMP ic, called a TF4, I did a web search for this thingie, couldnt find out anything on it.
Theres a mob of tiny loose balls floating inside it, must be something to do with balancing the CD at high speeds.

PS, everyone, the cartoon is for IST when he goes shopping for "STUFF" at the local electronics shop he he he.

@Gadgetmall,
Im pleased that thingie I sent to you has turned up OK, phew, I am soooooooo releaved, lol.

THIS THREAD NEEDS A BIT OF HELP WITH INSTRUMENTS
@ ANYONE reading this post.

There are two or four forum members who have a VERY URGENT NEED of an OSCILLOPE (Not me, I got one).

So if you live in America, and IF you have an oscillope gathering dust on a shelf (its SURPLUS to your needs hint hint hint) would you please get in touch with PIRATE. (cause he is the forum leader)

Why am I asking? because there are people on this forum that could really use one in their research, and most of us cannot afford to buy
one.
Have I ever helped one of the people on this forum out without being asked? YES, I gave something to Gadgetmall, all the way from DSE in Australia, a brand spanking new instrument, still in its plastic packet.
And it made me feel real good doing this.
Did Gadgetmall ask me to do this for him. NO, so if this Australian invallid pensioner can do this for an American, what can the Americans do for their own kind?

So come on readers, even an old frequency meter as well.
If you have other types, please feel free to send alsol.

Bill, whoooo boy ain't you going to love me he he he he.

General Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on February 24, 2009, 09:16:49 AM

@All

I let the battery sit for about an hour this morning and the voltage went from a loaded 0.412v to an unloaded resting voltage of 1.178v

Triple the voltage unloaded resting for an hour?

Plugged back in and the leds were almost as bright as when the battery was full for about 15 minutes slowly decreasing. I checked the voltage before I left for work and the loaded voltage was down to 0.405v

Seems the extra load from the higher starting voltage sucked it down pretty hard.

@electricme

Your generator expiriment reminds me of a science project I did in school about 20 years back. I had 2 DC motors wired straight together neg to pos, pos to neg. I had a popscicle stick mounted to the shaft of each motor. When I would spin one, the other would spin but not as much. I think the ratio was 3 to 1 or 33% eff in transfering mechanical to electric to mechanical..

I pulled apart a 3.5in floppy drive a few weeks back to reveal a 15 pole 3 phase motor. Pretty interesting stuff..

@xenomorphlabs

Thanks for the info. When I get time, I'm going to have to try messing with some timer circuits.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 24, 2009, 10:47:29 AM

thanks jim for the cartoon pic ;D

i have a few pics for you and everyone 8)

the mk2 tuned 6pac in the works ..

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: flathunter on February 24, 2009, 11:50:15 AM

HELP!!!!

I have no idea whats happened with my latest joule thief. I was using an old toroidal transformer - very large, lots of turns...still dont know how many, in a typical joule thief circuit except i had 2 transistors coupled like a darlington pair (i think :)). They're 2n3904's and i used an old AAA battery. The transformer has a secondary winding which i had wired up to a bridge and 10-15 LEDs. FirstIy i tried about 50 leds in parrallel with the emitter collector of the second transistor in the pair, and they all flashed very brightly as well as the 10 LEDs on the secondary, which flashed dimmer but faster. I then put a 6 volt motor in place of the 50 LEDs. To my utter surprise the motor worked, as well as the extra LEDs on the secondary. I was sooooo happy, I cackled like Dr Frankenstein....This was the most power i'd got with such a battery. I left it running for about 40 mins, and then put it away till the morning.

Anyway, tried it again this morning, and now i cant get a single LED to light with the circuit, unless i use a big 4.5 volt battery. Whats happened???? Ive tried changing the transistors, but to no avail. I've tried the original evil madscientist circuit with no secondary connection....and still nothing. Its almost like my coil has stopped working....why would this be?? I am just making a silly mistake??

Thanks in advance for any wisdom or help offered. I'll be getting a video camera for my birthday, and if i can get my JT back in order i'll definitely be making a video. Thanks to all of you for the continual inspiration ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 24, 2009, 12:37:49 PM

im thinking of building a unit useing all of this stuff

with out any replacable batteries ... it can work from solar or a hand crank ... or both ... lol

choose your path ... 8)

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: flathunter on February 24, 2009, 01:04:52 PM

Quote from: flathunter on February 24, 2009, 11:50:15 AM
HELP!!!!

I have no idea whats happened with my latest joule thief. I was using an old toroidal transformer - very large, lots of turns...still dont know how many, in a typical joule thief circuit except i had 2 transistors coupled like a darlington pair (i think :)). They're 2n3904's and i used an old AAA battery. The transformer has a secondary winding which i had wired up to a bridge and 10-15 LEDs. FirstIy i tried about 50 leds in parrallel with the emitter collector of the second transistor in the pair, and they all flashed very brightly as well as the 10 LEDs on the secondary, which flashed dimmer but faster. I then put a 6 volt motor in place of the 50 LEDs. To my utter surprise the motor worked, as well as the extra LEDs on the secondary. I was sooooo happy, I cackled like Dr Frankenstein....This was the most power i'd got with such a battery. I left it running for about 40 mins, and then put it away till the morning.

Anyway, tried it again this morning, and now i cant get a single LED to light with the circuit, unless i use a big 4.5 volt battery. Whats happened???? Ive tried changing the transistors, but to no avail. I've tried the original evil madscientist circuit with no secondary connection....and still nothing. Its almost like my coil has stopped working....why would this be?? I am just making a silly mistake??

Thanks in advance for any wisdom or help offered. I'll be getting a video camera for my birthday, and if i can get my JT back in order i'll definitely be making a video. Thanks to all of you for the continual inspiration ;)

OK...Just tried the 6 V motor on both my little original evilmadscientist toroids, and it works on both with the AAA battery. So my massive toroid werent doing anything that cant be done with the original design. So perhaps it aint such a great toroid and it dont matter that it aint working :) And its likely that i've made some kind of mistake, and thats why it aint working

It still gives me great pleasure playing with this blighter.....and I'm still Dr Frankenstein.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 24, 2009, 01:13:33 PM

@ Flathunter:

I don't believe you mentioned what type of connections you are using....bread board or soldered. You say you replaced the transistors so, that's good but I would check all of your other connections as well. If that is not it, I would do a continuity check on the individual wires used in the coils to see if maybe one has broken somewhere along the way. If all this checks out.....then I am at a loss as to what to do next.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 24, 2009, 02:26:15 PM

Quote from: electricme on February 24, 2009, 04:45:38 AM
@ Ist
Thankyou for your kind remarks, if you do get to pull one of the CD drive motors apart, they are a 3 phase configuration, each phase has a 4 legered SMP ic, called a TF4, I did a web search for this thingie, couldnt find out anything on it.
Theres a mob of tiny loose balls floating inside it, must be something to do with balancing the CD at high speeds.

PS, everyone, the cartoon is for IST when he goes shopping for "STUFF" at the local electronics shop he he he.

@Gadgetmall,
Im pleased that thingie I sent to you has turned up OK, phew, I am soooooooo releaved, lol.

THIS THREAD NEEDS A BIT OF HELP WITH INSTRUMENTS
@ ANYONE reading this post.

There are two or four forum members who have a VERY URGENT NEED of an OSCILLOPE (Not me, I got one).

So if you live in America, and IF you have an oscillope gathering dust on a shelf (its SURPLUS to your needs hint hint hint) would you please get in touch with PIRATE. (cause he is the forum leader)

Why am I asking? because there are people on this forum that could really use one in their research, and most of us cannot afford to buy
one.
Have I ever helped one of the people on this forum out without being asked? YES, I gave something to Gadgetmall, all the way from DSE in Australia, a brand spanking new instrument, still in its plastic packet.
And it made me feel real good doing this.
Did Gadgetmall ask me to do this for him. NO, so if this Australian invallid pensioner can do this for an American, what can the Americans do for their own kind?

So come on readers, even an old frequency meter as well.
If you have other types, please feel free to send alsol.

Bill, whoooo boy ain't you going to love me he he he he.

General Jim

@General, love the picture!

I have a craftsman multimeter, and it has a duty cycle setting, a frequency meter, but it doesn't get any reading off of the circuit, it's most likely too high to take a reading - perhaps we could make use of some sort of frequency splitter to dumb down the thing? is there even such a thing.

And as stated below...

Quote from: jadaro2600 on February 23, 2009, 10:38:56 PM
I'm having an simple issue with this circuit - why is it that electricity flows through the LED's rather than just going through the collector - emitter path? This is the only part of this circuit that doesn't make any sense to me.

I think this thread multi-page-jumps over night,

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 24, 2009, 02:50:55 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on February 23, 2009, 10:54:28 PM

@ jadro2600 hz lol ever play a blue box?!?!?!?!?! :)

any how if you notice your leds will light both ways when the secondary is wound properly .... one way is standard induction transformer action .... and the other way i can light all leds/neons.... with out effect to the source .... also this is how i extract power ....

DO NOT USE THE SOURCE ...

TIP IF YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND THIS .. BUILD THE MK2 REGULAR JT ..... DOES NOT NEED TO BE TUNED TO SEE THIS EFFECT ....

I've never phreaked before - if this is the blue box your talking about, but I am familiar with the number.

Have you a diagram for the mk2 jt?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 24, 2009, 03:11:25 PM

@jadaro2600

For the mk2, look a page 284 285 286.

my computer got attacked again, i connected my network on the windows side 2 min and check with spy bot and got 214 infection on my window partition, my windows is not booting anymore, this is really not normal.I have not used it in any way and it did not recognize my network card.I did make friends over here but also enemies.

Mk1

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on February 24, 2009, 04:24:46 PM

@ MK1

Sorry to hear you're PC is getting is getting attacked like that, this is what I recommended to a friend that used to have the same problem.

@ All

Excuse me for derailing this thread but the following information may be good for some people with the same problem.

1. Re-install the XP OS on your PC (if that's what your using) along with a Firewall and an Anti Virus before connecting to the internet.
2. Run the Firewall and an Anti Virus updates first when you connect to the internet.
3. Run the Windows OS updates.
4. Download and install Spywareguard on your PC http://www.javacoolsoftware.com/spywareguard.html and run the update tool.
5. Download and install the VMWare player from http://www.vmware.com/products/player/ .
6. Repeat steps 1 through 4 on the virtual machine.

7. COPY THE VM (Virtual machine) FILE SO YOU HAVE A BACKUP AND ONLY CONNECT TO THE INTERNET USING THE VM!

If you're ever unlucky enough to get the VM infected (which is near impossible if set on default to not write to your C: drive) you can just delete it and copy the backup image to the VM program folder and update it and then connect to the internet again and again with this VM backup copy.

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 24, 2009, 05:10:43 PM

Quote from: flathunter on February 24, 2009, 11:50:15 AM
HELP!!!!

I have no idea whats happened with my latest joule thief. I was using an old toroidal transformer - very large, lots of turns...still dont know how many, in a typical joule thief circuit except i had 2 transistors coupled like a darlington pair (i think :)). They're 2n3904's and i used an old AAA battery. The transformer has a secondary winding which i had wired up to a bridge and 10-15 LEDs. FirstIy i tried about 50 leds in parrallel with the emitter collector of the second transistor in the pair, and they all flashed very brightly as well as the 10 LEDs on the secondary, which flashed dimmer but faster. I then put a 6 volt motor in place of the 50 LEDs. To my utter surprise the motor worked, as well as the extra LEDs on the secondary. I was sooooo happy, I cackled like Dr Frankenstein....This was the most power i'd got with such a battery. I left it running for about 40 mins, and then put it away till the morning.

Anyway, tried it again this morning, and now i cant get a single LED to light with the circuit, unless i use a big 4.5 volt battery. Whats happened???? Ive tried changing the transistors, but to no avail. I've tried the original evil madscientist circuit with no secondary connection....and still nothing. Its almost like my coil has stopped working....why would this be?? I am just making a silly mistake??

Thanks in advance for any wisdom or help offered. I'll be getting a video camera for my birthday, and if i can get my JT back in order i'll definitely be making a video. Thanks to all of you for the continual inspiration ;)

Not sure how your running wire to your motor, but the motor itself might have been fubar'ed by the high voltage spikes or there may have been current feedback into the jt circuit: protect the motor with a capacitor and diode protect the the jt from the motor, like so

JTC----|<|--(-)--{ | } jtc > dioides > (capacitor) > motor
JTC----|>|--(-)--{ | }

NO good at ascii art, sorry, and my idea may not be that great after all.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: RAF on February 24, 2009, 05:57:19 PM

ï»¿Here is one i havenâ€™t read yet.

But first the setup, after i modified the fugi camera i found an old amp with two seemingly
matched white plastic coated toroid. Took the wire off both and wound them on one so no i do
not know how many turns but it is full.
Used a 2n3904 transistor , 1k Â½ watt resister and 1.2 v. 700 mah. AA NiCad . Lit out LEDs like
crazy.
To see what out put voltage it was giving, i manufactured a full wave bridge rectifier out of 4
1n4002 diode . Having some capacitors from the fugi i hooked one to the DC side of the rectifier
. A solid 58 V. , i was so impressed i put a 13 Volt brushed DC motor across it.
The motor ran at great speed for a sec then slowed, not to surprising the capacitor held at 4.3
volts but as with the LEDs the amp draw also went down a little.

Sooo... the thing that i find weird , decided to try a 12 volt brush less DC motor.
At first the motor takes off again with great speed then slows , suddenly reverses direction and
runs in that direction maintaining a 4.3 volts at the capacitor until disconnected . ???

Just wondering if any one had seen this before, and could it be even though i have a capacitor to
smooth out the pulse that it is still pulsing the motor and messing up the timing of the motor.
Like most of us i have a limited amount of tools, Volt meters and AC Amp meters all over the
place but just got a DC Amp meter this week, so no Scope yet. LOL

Thanks to All

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 24, 2009, 06:38:13 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 24, 2009, 03:11:25 PM
@jadaro2600

For the mk2, look a page 284 285 286.

my computer got attacked again, i connected my network on the windows side 2 min and check with spy bot and got 214 infection on my window partition, my windows is not booting anymore, this is really not normal.I have not used it in any way and it did not recognize my network card.I did make friends over here but also enemies.

Mk1

Hey Mark . Sorry your getting Bugs . I used to be a fan of norton until i found Avast 4.8 try it it had a very good network and web shield and an excellent Virus program that updates and its all free . If you can run that malwarebytes program on your computer instead of spybot .A you can see Spybot sucks and can't find or stop it all . apparently you have got something still hiding itself in the partition .

Al.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 24, 2009, 07:21:31 PM

well guys i need a supply jt unit

real simple .... so i will make one

i have been playing with a mk2 7x7x5x5 and i wanted to see if infact it is working as planed so i tryed to recharge a dead shake it .... system ..

it did this well and darn fast ... then i tryed on another feed from the same unit ... i added a 3.6v 350 mah and sure enough it charged that one quick too

so i will make a unit that will run from a aa power the mk2 unit it will charge 2 3.6v cordless fone batteries ... then we will take the out put from the to 3.6vdc batteries and we will devide it by 3 for both and feed the 6 pac ...

well time to whip it up

also i mounted the crank and power unit from a crank flash light i will add a mk2 to it too and a battery to be recharged .. then we can give her a few cranks ..and away we go ...

ist!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 24, 2009, 07:37:45 PM

@ist

Good work, there ! I can see you did a simple version of my experiment, lol and did not go overboard , and multiplied everything by 10 as you usually do , ok by six , but you did show restraint .lol

You can also connect all 4 pickup coil per jt in series , or 2 in series then rectify and feed back to the other coil , it charges faster.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 24, 2009, 08:56:26 PM

@ MK1:

About two weeks ago, I got the program malwarebytes as suggested by Gadgetmall and, even though I am using spybot, adaware and AVG and firefox, Malwarebytes found 6 items hiding in my computer and these were all high risk items. I have had no problems since. Just thought I would give a testimonial for it.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 24, 2009, 10:21:24 PM

@all

Thanks again for all the pc solutions, unfortunately my pc won't even boot in the windows partition , i can't even boot in safe mode . so i have to re install again, i will try the virtual machine .

Mk1

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 25, 2009, 12:40:07 AM

OK urgent stuff first.
@ Mki
Sorry to hear about your PC infection problem,
Get and install a copy of HIJACK THIS.

Click on the Hijack This icon and do a scan.
Save the LOG file
Work from the next file that appears.

Take your time looking through the information.
Your C drive programs that load up at start up will be displayed, read carefully.
You should recognise the directories where these programs are installed, if you know your way about in DOS then they will make a lot more sence to you.

Browse down the page and look at all the numbers on the left hand side of the page, these numbers represent different things the file is expected to do.

See if you see any 17,s remove them, these in 99% are hijackers.

Browse up to the top and look for any internet page redirections, these direct your normal web search page to a diferent one. If you see a unknown one delete it, but take care doing so, as any deletions cannot be undone.

HiJack This is a great tool, in the hands of a professional, it can do wonders, if you don't know how to use it, go the the Hijack This web forums and post your LOG file and wait for someone to help you.

***************************************************************************

OK after a XP install I always install Winpatrol
Winpatrol has a tiny little doggy that whoofs if something tries to install itself without my permission, its a freebie, ad has not let me down.

I also have SUPERAntiSpyware (free)
Spyware Terminator (free)
a-squared "antivirus" and also a-squared Anti Dialer, (both are free)

and lastly, get ERUNT, which writes a good registry into C:\WINDOWS\ERDNT\ the date of saved registry appears here
If you can boot your XP into DOS mode, got to the above windows directory and type in the date of the last saved registry file, it will write the registry file back to where it came from and then you reboot the PC, it should come up OK

Hope this helps you.

General Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 25, 2009, 01:00:44 AM

@jadaro2600
Ist is correct, you can light up a LED off a single coil both ways. ;D

Take a look at this TWV I just made
Please excuse the fingers

I held a bare LED across the output from my big torid coil
Holding the LED I turned it 180 degrees and it again lit up ;)

Hope this helped you

General Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 25, 2009, 01:19:13 AM

@RAF,
Reading your post, the motor results was very interresting ideed, my previous post shows how a LED can be lit both ways.
Just maybe this may explain your tiny electric motor "clockwise" and "anticlockwise" motor shaft rotation. But it dosent explain how a 10uF cap allows a reverst electrical energy through it,

is this "radient" energy? ;)

Its extroidanery, what happens wiith our little JT, isn't it all, Raf, can you post your circuit before you attempt to change it, to try to get it to work again. I ask this as you may have accidently stumbled on a quirky wiring setup, not saying it is wrong wiring, since it worked originally.

Any accidental find could be a huge leap forward for us all.

@ Flathunter
You are getting a similar result with a small motor, similar to RAFs, are you both replicating each others work? or is this just a coinsidence? :)
Verry interresting days work all
Well done ;D

In my early years, I connected up 2 winscreen wipermotor shafts together, then using one as a motor to drive the other one, I could gert out enough power to light up a tail light bulb. I was in priimary school at the time ha ha.

General Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 25, 2009, 01:28:30 AM

@ Mk1
I didn't think before did I, should have posted this first before all the other suggestions.

Take out your HD, and put it in another machine as the slave or the primary secondary.

Strt the computer, then go to START>run> type in CHKDSK and let it scan your hard drive
If it finds anything structually wrong, it will correct it.

Restart the PC several times to see if there are any other probs still there.

Do anti virus and malwarebytes scan

Run anything else you think you can do on it, get rid of coolwebsearch if it is there.

Save any stuff you need to, on to another drive

Then put it back in the original PC and reboot it.

If that wont get it to boot, check out your CMOS or BIOS settings.
put your XP CD in the drive and boot off it

Hope this all helps.

General Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 25, 2009, 03:26:45 AM

Quote from: electricme on February 25, 2009, 01:00:44 AM
@jadaro2600
Ist is correct, you can light up a LED off a single coil both ways. ;D

Take a look at this TWV I just made
Please excuse the fingers

I held a bare LED across the output from my big torid coil
Holding the LED I turned it 180 degrees and it again lit up ;)

Hope this helped you

General Jim

This is fantastically strange. Is it possible that the led is attaining resonance in way i described in this post:

Quote from: jadaro2600 on January 13, 2009, 10:08:40 PM

I've looked into the youtube video ..perhaps we're thinking along the same lines; or maybe not. the jtc looks a bit strange, but i'm a newbie.

I'm attempting to create an equivalent brightness using AC as would be with DC but using less over all power.

Intrinsically, generating AC will have it's drawbacks, or losses involved. etc. I've read that a diode will act as a capacitor given a reversal of normal current flow, but in reversal situations there is heat dissipated. Heat = loss of usable electricity.

I was thinking about half the current would due if a LED could be set into a resonant mode. The circumstances being right ..a resonant LED wouldn't overheat and the eyes would smooth out the frequency... and hopefully not cause seizures.

Given the right forward current and perhaps a reverse current less than that of the forward current and the LED could be brought to resonance.

Still don't get why the led would rather light up that there be any current flow through the collector emitter path.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 25, 2009, 07:46:57 AM

@ jadaro2600
you are having trouble in working out how come the current passes through the transister? is this right, relating to the JT?

Well I don't know if I could help you on this, as I am not sure how it works, but some how hi frequencies are involved in this process.

The JT steps up the voltage big time, in the process the current falls to amounts that we carnt measure accuratly.
Some of us have got small voltage in our torids, some of us have got hundreds of volts.

The higher the voltages and frequencies and 1.5v turns into stuff that we don't know about, its almost like smoke or a mist but it can light up LEDs left right and center.
Example is Bills (Pirate88179s) work he pioneed on lighting up literally hundreds and hundreds of LEDs, all on a simple 1.5v AA battery cell, actually I take my hat off to him because he deserves recognition for this, he is the first person in the world who has successfully done this.
That is why this thread seems to have 2 or more seeminly different topics all going at the same time, they are all related and find their roots here on the working of the JT circuit.

When I built my first joule thief, (in the early days) I also made a test LED, it had 2 wires connections, the LED would not light from a 1.5v aa cell fully charged.
But put the same LED on a joule thief, and viola, light shone out of it, using the same test battery.

Anyway, mabe there would be others who would have a better explination than mine, if you do, please hop on and tell. ;)

@ bill,
when does jeanna return? I really feel sorry for her when she see's all the posts to read up on.

Hooroo
General Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: flathunter on February 25, 2009, 09:16:48 AM

@Pirate

Heres my setup:

Original evilmadscientist design. Got 2 JTs, one using a tiny toroid (half inch long i reckon - cylinder), and a wind of 7 bifilar turns, one about an inch long with 9 bifilar turns (mobile phone charger wire on both). I plug em into my breadboard which has a 1k resistor and a 2n3904. They both can power several LEDs in combo with the little motor.
My third JT is the large kind of audio transformer toroid that I actually bought for a different project about a year ago, but then gave up after several lame and dangerous attempts to safely connect it to the mains. Thats the good thing about the JT - less chance of hurting yourself with REAL results :) This toroid has definitely stopped working - its got loads of turns of rather thick wire, as well as secondary leads, and I reckon you may be right that somewhere along the wire something has gone wrong.....at least I still have my little ones :)
Thanks anyhow mate - your videos of the CFLs were the ones that got me going on here!!! I've got a 4w lamp now to play with, and 2 Boots disposable cameras .....Who knows, maybe the boots cameras will be the JT makers dream come true!

@jadaro

Thanks for the advice concerning the motor. I'll try the capacitor and diode in my next circuit. The motor is in good order as its working with the other 2 little JTs I have. I'll be experimenting with the motor much more over the next few days, and if anything interesting happens, especially in regards to RAFs info concerning spinning backwards, you'll all be the first to know!

@RAF

Great work. I second electrics suggestion of a circuit diagram. 12 V motor eh!!!! I'm gonna have to aim a little higher!

@electricme

Its complete coincidence!! But RAF seems to be coming up with some good results, so i'll be doing my best to replicate and see if my motor works in a similar fashion.

@everyone else

Keep the info coming!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: RAF on February 25, 2009, 10:44:22 AM

ï»¿The circuit is pretty strait forward

Just to clarify the brushed DC motor starts out very fast,
and as the capacitor drains slows to a crawl but with some torque

The brush less starts fast but as the capacitor drains the motor
slows then suddenly goes in the other direction

I did put a meter across the capacitor to measure the voltage
during the run

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 25, 2009, 11:11:16 AM

hello everyone here is what i was building yesterday it is a voltage divider

this will be charged from 1 ring and a aa battery and then it splits into 6 switched feeds of 1.2vdc x6 from 4 3.6v cordless fone batteries ..

i would have used super caps but the last investor was too cheep to buy them ... so i walked ... lol

and here we are ... ;D ;D ;D 8)

but yep i will wind the ring todoay that will drive this divider

this powers the 6 pac from 1 aa or crank or solar or closed loop i dont care ... it dosent matter ...

i hear they like solar .....as they say it comes from the sun ;D it is not ou .... lol

solar the world understands ... perpetual engery .... well the world aint there yet ...

;D

ist!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gyulasun on February 25, 2009, 11:34:23 AM

Quote from: electricme on February 25, 2009, 07:46:57 AM
@ jadaro2600
you are having trouble in working out how come the current passes through the transister? is this right, relating to the JT?

Well I don't know if I could help you on this, as I am not sure how it works, but some how hi frequencies are involved in this process.

The JT steps up the voltage big time, in the process the current falls to amounts that we carnt measure accuratly.
Some of us have got small voltage in our torids, some of us have got hundreds of volts.

The higher the voltages and frequencies and 1.5v turns into stuff that we don't know about, its almost like smoke or a mist but it can light up LEDs left right and center.
Example is Bills (Pirate88179s) work he pioneed on lighting up literally hundreds and hundreds of LEDs, all on a simple 1.5v AA battery cell, actually I take my hat off to him because he deserves recognition for this, he is the first person in the world who has successfully done this.
That is why this thread seems to have 2 or more seeminly different topics all going at the same time, they are all related and find their roots here on the working of the JT circuit.
When I built my first joule thief, (in the early days) I also made a test LED, it had 2 wires connections, the LED would not light from a 1.5v aa cell fully charged.
But put the same LED on a joule thief, and viola, light shone out of it, using the same test battery.
Anyway, mabe there would be others who would have a better explination than mine, if you do, please hop on and tell. ;)

Hooroo
General Jim

Hi Jim and All,

jadaro2600 opened a new thread for his question and I tried to answer his LED/collector current question there, see this link:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6905.0

Now let me briefly discuss how the JouleThief circuit operates and how may you improve it. If the principle was already explained I apologize I did not search for it in these long threads.
So it all boils down to induced voltage in a coil when you interrupt the current flowing in it. The collapsing magnetic field induces a voltage pulse across the coil, the polarity of this pulse is just the opposite of the DC voltage you switch across the coil to make the current flow in it. The formula for the induced voltage is V_induced=L(dI/dt) where L is the coil's self inductance in Henry, dI is the current change in the coil in Amper and dt is time in seconds under which the current changes.
So you see the higher the current change and the shorter the time, also the higher the coil's self inductance, the higher the induced voltage you receive across the coil.
This means you can get higher flyback pulse by using a fast switch. A higher amplitude pulse can lite up more LEDs in series because the LED forward voltages add up and you have to defeat their series resultant voltages. 10 white LEDs in series needs at least a 35-40V peak pulse to create and also get some light with certain intensity. You can combine LEDs in parallel from the series chains.
Let's make a small calculation with the formula above, say you switch on 50mA via your 1mH coil in 1usec. Then the induced voltage will be: (0.001H*0.05A) / 0.000001sec=50V If you are able to switch faster than 1usec in a JT circuit then you get a higher pulse in the calculated example.
An extreme example is the spark transformer in cars where you switch a 12V battery to the tapped coil and receive 30-50kV peak pulses. (It is a heavy duty JT if you like, inputting some Ampers at 12V.)

Here is link on using a transformer (basically two coils instead of one or one coil with a tap if you like): http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/an_pk/1109/

No need for using the Maxim specific ICs for the job, a JT can be adapted for the transformer circuit, basically also an autotransformer with 1:5 or higher up-transformation ratio. You simply connect the collector to the tap of the coil and instead of the D1 fast diode you connect the series of LEDs towards the negative pole of the battery like in the JT.

rgds, Gyula

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: RAF on February 25, 2009, 11:45:01 AM

ï»¿Oh good lord !!!!! I am soooo sorry to all

Some times one should get some sleep then try again before posting
Got up this morning caught up on the thread grabbed my JT and drew up the circuit
post it.
Tore apart an old power supply to get the fan to see if the same thing would happen.
All of the voltages where wrong Dazed and confused (a normal state of mind for me)
tried to get the voltages back.
Suddenly remembered i was working with the fugi camera transformer >:(
I have run out of time but will post the Fugi circuit latter tonight

Again i am sorry to start a confusion with the toroid and the fugi transformer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 25, 2009, 01:33:23 PM

well this unit works awsome .... 8) :o

i now have 4 fully charged fone batteries in less than 15 min from a aa battery ....

they do drop off a wee bit after i stop chargeing them but not below 3.4 v dc all 4 were verry low b4 i hooked them up ...

i have not powered anything from this unit yet but i will do that soon

;D

ist!

btw im only useing 2 feeds from the mk2 to test it ... there is still 2 free coils on the toroide wich i will add to the unit ;D i think charge time will be cut in half ... ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 25, 2009, 02:18:19 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on February 25, 2009, 01:33:23 PM
well this unit works awsome .... 8) :o

i now have 4 fully charged fone batteries in less than 15 min from a aa battery ....

they do drop off a wee bit after i stop chargeing them but not below 3.4 v dc all 4 were verry low b4 i hooked them up ...

i have not powered anything from this unit yet but i will do that soon

;D

ist!

btw im only useing 2 feeds from the mk2 to test it ... there is still 2 free coils on the toroide wich i will add to the unit ;D i think charge time will be cut in half ... ;)

Did you tried to power something with the charged batteries to see if the charge is not illusional?

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 25, 2009, 04:15:49 PM

well i let them sit there after being charged ... for 2 plus hours i looked at the meters they say 3.25vdc in 2 0f them and the other 2 i had 2.01vdc the reason for this would be i had previously charged the first group a cupple times so yes over time it does drop down a bit but after a few charges i expect it will even out ...

ist!!

here is a picture of the finished unit all mounted tested and working properly ... 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 25, 2009, 06:48:45 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on February 25, 2009, 04:15:49 PM
well i let them sit there after being charged ... for 2 plus hours i looked at the meters they say 3.25vdc in 2 0f them and the other 2 i had 2.01vdc the reason for this would be i had previously charged the first group a cupple times so yes over time it does drop down a bit but after a few charges i expect it will even out ...

ist!!

here is a picture of the finished unit all mounted tested and working properly ... 8)

@ist you are a hard worker! It seems that you never rest.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 25, 2009, 07:40:59 PM

@RAF,
Never mind about making mistakes, we all do, and I have made some biggies.
Better to point out that you did something wrong and provide the correct solution rather than trying to think they will never figure it out lol.

@ Bill
Thanks for your kind words to me just before.

Now wouldn't it be something to power a lawn mower via a JT, that would save some liquid juice. ;D

General Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on February 25, 2009, 08:22:28 PM

Took back my super cheap $30 Radio Shack DMM and bought a somewhat cheap $70 one that has PC interface, Pulse Width, Duty Cycle and Pulse Frequency. Wow, so much easier to determine what is going on when you can analyze the frequency stuff the transistor is doing!

Wish I could justify $250-$350 to get a good Fluke, but the wife would kill me if she found out I spent that much on one :( She already thinks I have to many hobbies already.. Stunt Kites, Traction Kites, Kite Buggying, RC Helis and Airplanes, Video Game playing and programming...

Also searching the net, I came across a post about 555 timers and the JT and this guy has some pretty awesome circuits. My appoligies if this particular souce of info has been posted already, but here it is..
http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=19075 (http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=19075)

I have 2 JTs running Since last Friday/Saturday. The battery on the one with the 3 led push light circuit is down to 386mv loaded and still going! Amazing! I measured the transistor and it is currently oscillating at 320khz with a pulse duty of 15.5% and a pulse width of 0.485 microseconds or 0.000485ms. The other one is at 1.282v loaded and is running 3, 4v 28,500mcd ultrabright white leds in parallel. That one is running 24khz, pulse duty 63%, pulse width of 26 microseconds or 0.026ms.

I also picked up a few tlc555 timers. I can't wait to expiriment with them!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 25, 2009, 08:51:50 PM

Strange observation: I was attempting to measure voltage across different components in the circuit and noticed that the voltage across the LED is the same as the battery but the voltage across the primary resistor -> toroid -> base connection via the positive terminal across the resistor is infact higher than the voltage of the battery. Increasing the resistance also increased the voltage.

Is this a product of the action of the field collapse? And why would the voltage across this resistor be higher than the battery while the voltage across the LED is the same as the battery? Here is the circuit I am using - I am using a special coil in place of the ferrite cored normal, but it has the same effect. I'll have to wait a bit for antialiasing in the dia program. :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 25, 2009, 10:09:12 PM

since i keep chugging along the path ... i am working on the supply jt for the voltage divider ..

here is a pic

ist!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 25, 2009, 10:46:55 PM

Here is a short video of two joule thiefs circuits connected to the same light.
There both running off the same battery allso.

When I turned both of them up all the way they would want to cancel each other out.
But just connecting both collectors togeather on the 3055's they work togeather.

It would be nice to see what five of them could do togeather.
Or if I was IST maybe ten of them togeather LoL :o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XViorM5VI84

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 25, 2009, 11:07:50 PM

@hazens1

Thank you for the 555 joule thief circuit link.

@jadaro2600

You will soon be dealing with some strange voltages if you keep experimenting.

Quote from: slayer007 on February 25, 2009, 10:46:55 PM
Here is a short video of two joule thiefs circuits connected to the same light.
There both running off the same battery allso.

When I turned both of them up all the way they would want to cancel each other out.
But just connecting both collectors togeather on the 3055's they work togeather.

It would be nice to see what five of them could do togeather.
Or if I was IST maybe ten of them togeather LoL :o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XViorM5VI84

Nice work @slayer!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 26, 2009, 12:35:53 AM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on February 25, 2009, 11:07:50 PM
@hazens1

Thank you for the 555 joule thief circuit link.

@jadaro2600

You will soon be dealing with some strange voltages if you keep experimenting.

Nice work @slayer!

Jesus

Jesus always does nice work :) ..what's really strange is with the 20k resistor, it's only drawing 1.6ma ..but when I try to measure, the light dims, otherwise, it's still just as bright as with a 10k resistor while drawing 6.7ma and not dimming when trying to measure current.

Is that the light singing or the toroids?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: RAF on February 26, 2009, 12:44:07 AM

ï»¿Man I had a hard time to get this going again,
That should teach me to wright it down before going in a different direction.
Well i was some what correct in the schematic, and yes the transistor makes all the difference in
the world.
I do work back and forth on the JT and Fugi circuits and easily confused.
So what is going on now.
The capacitor charges up to 50 volts fairly fast and will climb if one has the patients.
The Brushed DC motor still works the same Starts out fast then slows runs this time at 5.4 volts
The brush less DC motor does not work at all when i connect it i get a big spark the same as if i
short out the cap, meter reads 0 volt.
This motor was out of a Bar Code reader, i have two more and may try with one of the other.
It may also be that it was on the verge of death and i just pushed it over the edge.

Tried the fan out of a PC power supply, wiggles the fan but does not run volts on cap are 3.9

Think Iâ€™ll steal the kids web cam while they are in school and try to make a video, i have never
done this so donâ€™t hold you breath.

Great work all Some interesting things going on here

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 26, 2009, 12:50:31 AM

yep i like those 4401's ;D 8)

work well for me

i dug out this meter i bought a long time ago ... i have not used it much but it think it is time... it has a COMP INTERFACE ... does freq and all that stuff

8)

so i will fire it up after i compleat the source jt ..

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on February 26, 2009, 01:23:55 AM

Ok, so I made a Mk2 toroid 8)

4 turn Main, 4 turn Trigger, 4x22 turn secondaries

I have a n4401 NPN transistor, 2.2k resistor, 1 inch Mk2 Toroid and a 10uf 35v cap.

I have 3x10mm leds 28,500mcd 4.0v on 3 of the secondaries and I have the 3 led push light circuit on the 4th secondary.

Total draw 44.2ma

Leds work both ways, but if more than 1 secondary used, they must all be same polarity or they all shut off.

Amp draw goes from ~40ma to ~44ma up ~1ma for each secondary used. I.E. ~42ma when 2 secondaries are used.

I noticed the pulse frequency goes down, pulse width goes up and pulse duty goes up as I load each of the secondaries up.

I'm going to add a trimmer pot and try different caps and transistors to see what happens with the data.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 26, 2009, 02:03:16 AM

@ Slayer:

Great video! (5 stars) I think you found a way to synchronize the 2 JTs. Great work!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 26, 2009, 02:18:02 AM

@Ist,
Nice setup of your battery charging photo, glad you have been able to make it work, and fast at that.

@jadaro2600,
I think you mare seeing the effect of inrush current, electrons pile up when you switch on a circuit, then they even out and flow through better.

What did you use to draw your circuit? where can I get it from?

General jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 26, 2009, 02:30:44 AM

@all,
Today I decided to make up a light chaser kitt ;D now what can I do with this thing?
Mabe solder a 330ohm resistor to the hi output of the LEDs and send the + to the base of a BC548 to allow the output of a JT to charge up a bank of electrolytics? then discharge them all into a battery? hmmmmm, I'll do a bit more reading up on this one.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 26, 2009, 06:58:04 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on February 26, 2009, 12:35:53 AM
Jesus always does nice work :) ..what's really strange is with the 20k resistor, it's only drawing 1.6ma ..but when I try to measure, the light dims, otherwise, it's still just as bright as with a 10k resistor while drawing 6.7ma and not dimming when trying to measure current.

Is that the light singing or the toroids?

The toroid is the one that sings.
If you can hear it singing, that is a good sign that it is working.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 26, 2009, 07:14:25 AM

Quote from: RAF on February 26, 2009, 12:44:07 AM
ï»¿Man I had a hard time to get this going again,
That should teach me to wright it down before going in a different direction.
Well i was some what correct in the schematic, and yes the transistor makes all the difference in
the world.
I do work back and forth on the JT and Fugi circuits and easily confused.
So what is going on now.
The capacitor charges up to 50 volts fairly fast and will climb if one has the patients.
The Brushed DC motor still works the same Starts out fast then slows runs this time at 5.4 volts
The brush less DC motor does not work at all when i connect it i get a big spark the same as if i
short out the cap, meter reads 0 volt.
This motor was out of a Bar Code reader, i have two more and may try with one of the other.
It may also be that it was on the verge of death and i just pushed it over the edge.

Tried the fan out of a PC power supply, wiggles the fan but does not run volts on cap are 3.9

Think Iâ€™ll steal the kids web cam while they are in school and try to make a video, i have never
done this so donâ€™t hold you breath.

Great work all Some interesting things going on here

Change the capacitor to a lower voltage value and check the same motor again.
Those camera flash capacitors that are without any values printed on them are from 80 to 120uf and 350v.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 26, 2009, 07:23:18 AM

Quote from: hazens1 on February 26, 2009, 01:23:55 AM
Ok, so I made a Mk2 toroid 8)

4 turn Main, 4 turn Trigger, 4x22 turn secondaries

I have a n4401 NPN transistor, 2.2k resistor, 1 inch Mk2 Toroid and a 10uf 35v cap.

I have 3x10mm leds 28,500mcd 4.0v on 3 of the secondaries and I have the 3 led push light circuit on the 4th secondary.

Total draw 44.2ma

Leds work both ways, but if more than 1 secondary used, they must all be same polarity or they all shut off.

Amp draw goes from ~40ma to ~44ma up ~1ma for each secondary used. I.E. ~42ma when 2 secondaries are used.

I noticed the pulse frequency goes down, pulse width goes up and pulse duty goes up as I load each of the secondaries up.

I'm going to add a trimmer pot and try different caps and transistors to see what happens with the data.

Good job!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 26, 2009, 07:29:09 AM

Quote from: electricme on February 26, 2009, 02:30:44 AM
@all,
Today I decided to make up a light chaser kitt ;D now what can I do with this thing?
Mabe solder a 330ohm resistor to the hi output of the LEDs and send the + to the base of a BC548 to allow the output of a JT to charge up a bank of electrolytics? then discharge them all into a battery? hmmmmm, I'll do a bit more reading up on this one.

Maybe you are doing something great on all your small videos. But saddly I have not been able to see any one of them. My machine does not see that kind of videos. The ones that end with .3gp.

Do you know of any small free viewer?

@pirate
How you doing?

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 26, 2009, 07:39:18 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 26, 2009, 02:03:16 AM
@ Slayer:

Great video! (5 stars) I think you found a way to synchronize the 2 JTs. Great work!

Bill

Thanks Bill

Yes putting the collectors togeather they go in sync.
When there in sync it only took 100Ma more to run the other one.

I'd like to add a couple more in sync and see what happens.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 26, 2009, 07:43:34 AM

@ jesus,
Try http://www.sofotex.com/3GP-Player-download_L45547.html
address to download a free video player that can play those 3gp video files

I havent tried this one.
I just googled 3gp video player and this one popped up on the screen.
Hope it works ok.

General Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 26, 2009, 07:55:31 AM

Hello Guys and Gals(Jeanna) :)
well Here is a Partly Modded Fugi AAA circuit lighting a cfl . I have not ran a time run on it it nor checked the current just yet but did manage to light a 45 watt cfl good and bright .The Mod to do this is not hard at all .

@ General Jim .
My Good Friend Down Under .iI want to Thank you so Very Much For Helping Me out even when i didn't even ask you too. You are a True Hero In My Book and Have One Big Heart on ya there Mate . I have Something for You too . ;) I think you will like it .Keep up the Great Work as i have been Slacking a bit cause My Daughter is sick now for 7 days and am exausted but lord willing i'll keep the ticker going :) LUIC
@ Maw2432
You almost set . Many thanks and you also have a Big heart . One Great Teacher !!! ;)

@Pirate

Thank you Very Much . i will be Contacting you and let you know what the happs are :o . Its good ! ;)
And your set too !! ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 26, 2009, 07:57:51 AM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on February 26, 2009, 07:29:09 AM
Maybe you are doing something great on all your small videos. But saddly I have not been able to see any one of them. My machine does not see that kind of videos. The ones that end with .3gp.

Do you know of any small free viewer?

@pirate
How you doing?

Jesus

Download Quicktime

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 26, 2009, 08:05:22 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 24, 2009, 08:56:26 PM
@ MK1:

About two weeks ago, I got the program malwarebytes as suggested by Gadgetmall and, even though I am using spybot, adaware and AVG and firefox, Malwarebytes found 6 items hiding in my computer and these were all high risk items. I have had no problems since. Just thought I would give a testimonial for it.

Bill

Yes it is the BEST Antispyware remove on the net and highly recommended . It finds stuff spybot and microsoft antispyware and Xsoft and All of the so called spyware removers(BULL) . and Of course it is 100% free . It will fix your problems is its bug related and your hijacked . Recommended by all the hackers !!.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 26, 2009, 08:09:20 AM

@all
I also decided to make a dual JT running on one 1.2v Nicad cell.
Got stuck into those two green torids, put 20 bifilar turns on each one.
They are not running in parallel, as they have seperate feeds to seperate transistors.
To bring them into sync, I will solder a wire from each transistor base to base, I should need just the one 1K resistor

They work nice.
Tomorrow I will begin the 480 turns secondary on each torid, gonna have sore pinkies!!!!!!!!!

@jadaro2600
Was it you who was having weird motor running on your joul thief?
Anyway, I remember way back, I could run a 12v PC fan for a couple of seconds, then it would run down and stop.

I discovered it was the CAP, it took a while to charge up, but the JT wasn't putting out enough current to overcome the current drain of the motor. I have been waiting for more identical size torids to wind and connect them in parallel to see if I could get milliamps that way.

Thats one reason I bought that rotary LED kitt, so I can alter the (mark-space ratio) time allicoated to charge up a smaller cap, then when the last LED lights, discharge all 8 caps into the battery.

How I think this should work.
The 4017 IC has 10 outputs, if I take the 1st to the 8th to control the (eight seperate capacitors) charge, the 9th will put a "hi" on 8 seperate diodes to the bases of 8 bc548 transistors, which will dump the voltage accumilated during each cycle and dump it back into the battery driving the whole shing bang. The 10th output will go back to the reset pin on the 4017 IC, it will go through the sequence automaticly all over again.
The 555 timer IC is to control the speed of the 4017 IC chip.

In theory it will work, only thing is, the 555 needs at least 4.5v to work, same with the 4017 IC.
I might have to kick start it with a 12v battery, lol

General Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 26, 2009, 08:18:56 AM

Haaaaa Haaaaaa he he he he haaaaawwww ha ha

I'm tooo silly for words, an its very late.

My two greenies, aint they loverly even got golden eye shadow.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 26, 2009, 08:22:48 AM

Quote from: gyulasun on February 25, 2009, 11:34:23 AM
Hi Jim and All,

jadaro2600 opened a new thread for his question and I tried to answer his LED/collector current question there, see this link:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6905.0

Now let me briefly discuss how the JouleThief circuit operates and how may you improve it. If the principle was already explained I apologize I did not search for it in these long threads.
So it all boils down to induced voltage in a coil when you interrupt the current flowing in it. The collapsing magnetic field induces a voltage pulse across the coil, the polarity of this pulse is just the opposite of the DC voltage you switch across the coil to make the current flow in it. The formula for the induced voltage is V_induced=L(dI/dt) where L is the coil's self inductance in Henry, dI is the current change in the coil in Amper and dt is time in seconds under which the current changes.
So you see the higher the current change and the shorter the time, also the higher the coil's self inductance, the higher the induced voltage you receive across the coil.
This means you can get higher flyback pulse by using a fast switch. A higher amplitude pulse can lite up more LEDs in series because the LED forward voltages add up and you have to defeat their series resultant voltages. 10 white LEDs in series needs at least a 35-40V peak pulse to create and also get some light with certain intensity. You can combine LEDs in parallel from the series chains.
Let's make a small calculation with the formula above, say you switch on 50mA via your 1mH coil in 1usec. Then the induced voltage will be: (0.001H*0.05A) / 0.000001sec=50V If you are able to switch faster than 1usec in a JT circuit then you get a higher pulse in the calculated example.
An extreme example is the spark transformer in cars where you switch a 12V battery to the tapped coil and receive 30-50kV peak pulses. (It is a heavy duty JT if you like, inputting some Ampers at 12V.)

Here is link on using a transformer (basically two coils instead of one or one coil with a tap if you like): http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/an_pk/1109/

No need for using the Maxim specific ICs for the job, a JT can be adapted for the transformer circuit, basically also an autotransformer with 1:5 or higher up-transformation ratio. You simply connect the collector to the tap of the coil and instead of the D1 fast diode you connect the series of LEDs towards the negative pole of the battery like in the JT.

rgds, Gyula

Hi . Thanks for the calculations . I don't know how they fit in on a circuit i made . For Instance take an White 10,000 mcd led that supposed to take 2.9 volts and 20 ma to light it . well i can light 4 of them on .90 volts at .81 ma total bright . So we are Lighting Basically a 10,000 mcd led with a Modded Jt for only 0.20 ma rather than 20 ma and the voltage output is barley 2 volts rectified measurement ???:) . yep its all in this thread somewhere . The Bemf on these are Playing a factor not in any calculation i suspect . If there is an explanation Its probably more In the Nature of a Higher Bemf or energy from the aether than the actual induced voltage . Again this is in a resonate Mod and the Schematics are posted many times so i won't bother to post them again. But thanks for a Scientific Approach !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 26, 2009, 08:42:33 AM

Quote from: electricme on February 25, 2009, 01:00:44 AM
@jadaro2600
Ist is correct, you can light up a LED off a single coil both ways. ;D

Take a look at this TWV I just made
Please excuse the fingers

I held a bare LED across the output from my big torid coil
Holding the LED I turned it 180 degrees and it again lit up ;)

Hope this helped you

General Jim

Hi General :) Do you suspect then that as i suspect that true ac is coming off the mk2 rather than pulsed dc . That is the only explanation i see as an led Will light both ways on ac but not pulsed dc . ??????? so if that is the case Winding a Jt in this fashion will convert PDC to Ac ? I think so .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jonnydavro on February 26, 2009, 08:52:35 AM

Hi.Great work going on here and i am following it closely. ;D
A while back when i made a joule thief powering a pulse motor,Pirate suggested puting a dc motor on top off the pulse motor top and tail fashion as a generator well i had a play a while back with the idea and here is the result.I have not used a pulse motor i have top and tailed 2 dc motors.The top one is powered by the cap which is charged by the joule thief and the bottom motor is the generator.Here is a video off it running.This might have possible feed back to sorce potential or maybe chargeing batteries.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ynFm-JwYjY
@electricme.If you are still having problems with utube,let me know and i will send you the vid if you like.
Regards jonnydavro

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 26, 2009, 09:22:20 AM

@electricme

Thank you!
I tried the viewer of the link you posted and it seems to be working improperply on my machine.
It says something about the engine of my machine is wrong??
I will try now @gadgetmall's quicktime suggestion.

@gadgetmall
I have a battery pack of two triple A batteries charging with a variation of your idea. I did the test the way you told me and it did not work with my toroid's secondary. I used the primay's output to connect it instead and it is working by itself since last night! The special led goes the other way around.
The fire test will be to test the charged AAA batteires on my camera to see if it is not a ghost charge.

Thank you!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on February 26, 2009, 10:12:09 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on February 26, 2009, 08:42:33 AM
Hi General :) Do you suspect then that as i suspect that true ac is coming off the mk2 rather than pulsed dc . That is the only explanation i see as an led Will light both ways on ac but not pulsed dc . ??????? so if that is the case Winding a Jt in this fashion will convert PDC to Ac ? I think so .

lol and I thought I was going nutty :) as I found this too... But I found it with a really crappy ring coil,
which was in fact so bad I pulled it apart and wound a new one the proper way... After which I got
no light from the backward LED...
So, just to get things straight here, what exactly do you mean by "Mk2 fashion winding"?
Is that like one half of the coil cw, the other ccw... no wait, that was the Jeanna variation, wasn't it?
Ah, I see now, I am just confusing the heck out of myself :) ;D
If I have the time later I'll start digging through the 300+ pages to find what exactly the Mk2 variation
was again, then I'll know what you're talking about ;)

A silly question: what if we take the "secondary" wrapped around the JT, and not only connect
a number of LEDs across it, but also connect a suitable capacitor behind these LEDs?
Could we get the LEDs to light up and at the same time collect all of the charges pumped through
them on the cap for later use?? (will try that soon, need to find my caps)
If so, perhaps we could use the charge buildup on that cap to control the input from the battery
into the JT primary, without really needing to use the battery positive and the ground for that
input pulse? I'm thinking, charge builds up on secondary cap coupling, and will need to be
discharged into ground occasionally, but should build up charge untill then...
Hmm... I suppose I need to ponder that a bit more... ;)

regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 26, 2009, 11:11:22 AM

well it got busy FAST ROUND HERE......

LOL

yes ac is generated from the mk2 winding ...

also

i think a led should possibly be there first ... b4 the fullwave bridge... why ?!?!?!?!

well

i liked my supply jt soooooo much i will make 2 of them ... ;D just to insure that it powers the 6 with EASE.......

also my batteries in my devider DRAIN QUITE QUICKLY ... ;D ;D ;D

this is a good thing.... why!?!?!?!?!?!

well

they will always be dead!!!!!!!!! lol hence easy proof!!!

i added 2 places to RECHARGE 4 AA BATTERIES .... ;D

SO A RECAP i will have 2 dead aa batteries driveing this unit ... they will recharge 2 aa each... plus recharge the 6 way divider and power my 30 outputs...

SINCE IM REALLY NUITS I WILL ADD A HAND CRANK UNIT ... to recharge 2 other aa batteries .. and 1 solar unit ...

it is all FREE!!!

IF YOU HAVE 3MIN TO CRANK THE HANDLE OR A FEW HOURS OF SUN.....

:P

WHO SAYS IT CAN NOT BE DONE !?!?!?!?!?!

THOSE THAT SAY NEVER TRIED ......

IST!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 26, 2009, 11:11:28 AM

Quote from: Koen1 on February 26, 2009, 10:12:09 AM
lol and I thought I was going nutty :) as I found this too... But I found it with a really crappy ring coil,
which was in fact so bad I pulled it apart and wound a new one the proper way... After which I got
no light from the backward LED...
So, just to get things straight here, what exactly do you mean by "Mk2 fashion winding"?
Is that like one half of the coil cw, the other ccw... no wait, that was the Jeanna variation, wasn't it?
Ah, I see now, I am just confusing the heck out of myself :) ;D
If I have the time later I'll start digging through the 300+ pages to find what exactly the Mk2 variation
was again, then I'll know what you're talking about ;)

A silly question: what if we take the "secondary" wrapped around the JT, and not only connect
a number of LEDs across it, but also connect a suitable capacitor behind these LEDs?
Could we get the LEDs to light up and at the same time collect all of the charges pumped through
them on the cap for later use?? (will try that soon, need to find my caps)
If so, perhaps we could use the charge buildup on that cap to control the input from the battery
into the JT primary, without really needing to use the battery positive and the ground for that
input pulse? I'm thinking, charge builds up on secondary cap coupling, and will need to be
discharged into ground occasionally, but should build up charge untill then...
Hmm... I suppose I need to ponder that a bit more... ;)

regards,
Koen

hello Koen . Its Mk1's Baby project Concerning Magnetic Amplifiers and the exact diagrams are around page 300 .. at least you wont have to go all the way back and read :) As far as the charge cap and the Ou Jt i have not put it open source . Sorry but i am involved in a Much Bigger Project and it can have world wide implications so i cannot post it open source . i vaguely mentioned the process in this thread somewhere ???. Oh Darn Guess you will have to read it all if you want to know what it is ;)
Regards
gadget ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 26, 2009, 11:22:35 AM

@ hazens1

i noticed you used a green toroide.... well i have 2 diffrent green toroides ...

i have 1 exactly the same as you used .. and i had ok results... but yours looks pastial like ... and not so green ... more lima green

could be a problem ;)

i have also noticed that some other cores are pastel colour ... some of my yellow ones are.... some are real bright yellow....

i think if you add a turn your results will change...

try a black 1 ;)

also DIODES ARE VERRY IMPORTANT ..... this is a lower freq unit so high resistance diodes will work best .... when we get to high freq... or higher ..... we will want low resistance diodes..

just how i see it

i will add a picture of my unit in the works today i hope to get it all hooked up today ...

ist!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 26, 2009, 11:36:39 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on February 26, 2009, 11:11:28 AM
hello Koen . Its Mk1's Baby project Concerning Magnetic Amplifiers and the exact diagrams are around page 300 .. at least you wont have to go all the way back and read :) As far as the charge cap and the Ou Jt i have not put it open source . Sorry but i am involved in a Much Bigger Project and it can have world wide implications so i cannot post it open source . i vaguely mentioned the process in this thread somewhere ???. Oh Darn Guess you will have to read it all if you want to know what it is ;)
Regards
gadget ;D

YOU ARE ARE YOU ...................................

LOL LOL

DID THEY OFFER YOU YOUR MULTI PASS!?!?!?!?!?!?!

LOL

THEY SUCK!!!!

ASK THEM ABOUT THERE FUEL LESS CAR!!!

LOL

THEY ROBB THEY STEAL ....... AND PAY YOU SHIT!!!!!

ASK ME AGIN WHERE I DRAW CONCLUSIONS FROM ;D ;D ;D

DONT BELEAVE ME ..... GO ASK RICHARD .... LOL

THEY WILL FAIL.... WHY?!?!?!?!?! CUZ THEY CAN NOT PATTEND IT .....

DO NOT THINK WHAT YOU HAVE DONE GADGET IS NEW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! PERHAPS NEW TO YOU LOL

THEY WILL GAIN NO PATTENDS IF THEY DO IT IS BECAUSE THEY STOLE......................................

;)

I HAVE LAYED MY CLAIMES 3 YEARS AGO AND I CONTINUE TO DO SO

BE THIS KNOWEN IF YOU STEAL FROM ME ...... ;D I WILL NOT BE BROKE ALL MY LIFE ...........................

AND I WILL RECLAIM ALL OF MY WORK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I KNOW YEARS AGO WHAT I HAVE DONE .... ;D

KEEPS ME IN MY GAME!!!!
;)

IST!!!

;)

THINK TWICE ... I HAVE ... ;D

NOW WHO WANTS REAL FREE ENGERY ??

I CAN BE CONTACTED VIA ISTEAM .CA AS WELL I WORK WITH MK1... REMEMBER WHOS RING IT IS .... 8)

HENCE WHO WILL BE GRANTED THE PATTEND .... LOL

IM NOT WORRIED BOUT PATTENDS ... AS I CAN PATTEND WHAT I LIKE ;D 8)

WHY!?!?!?!?!

HEY JUST LOOK AT PNP NPN AND NO BODY IS THERE YET PUBLIC ANYHOW...

WELL

THINK ABOUT IT WERE YOU OFFERED BILLIONS OF DOLLARS ... I WAS!!!!

8)

MONEY IS THE LIE .................................. LOL

BTW THAT WAS NOT JUST 1 BILLION BUT 100'S OF THEM

LOL

THEN THEY TELL ME AFTER I TEACH THEM I HAVE NOTHING ...

HENCE HERE WE ARE ..................... NOW I GUESS THEW WHOLE WORLD HAS NOTHING IN THERE EYES .... BUT WE KNOW BETTER 8)

SURE THEY WILL SAY O JUST GET IT DONE I WILL PAY FOR IT ... LOL

SURE THEY WILL .....

SO WHEN THEY WALK AND STIFF YOU WITH THE BILL ..... YOU WILL KNOW ... I HAVE A 1000 DOLLAR CNC BILL..............

THANKS ..... BUT THE WHOLE WORLD HAS FREE ENGERY THAT THE BAD GUYS WILL NOT PATTEND AND IF THEY DO

I WILL HAVE THERE PATTENDS REVOKED ;D

THINK I CANT DO IT ?!?!?!?!

PERHAPS YOU READ ALL MY PAST POSTS... LOL AND WHEN THINGS CLICK

I CAN SAY TOLD YOU SO ..... LOL

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gyulasun on February 26, 2009, 11:48:20 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on February 26, 2009, 08:22:48 AM
Hi . Thanks for the calculations . I don't know how they fit in on a circuit i made . For Instance take an White 10,000 mcd led that supposed to take 2.9 volts and 20 ma to light it . well i can light 4 of them on .90 volts at .81 ma total bright . So we are Lighting Basically a 10,000 mcd led with a Modded Jt for only 0.20 ma rather than 20 ma and the voltage output is barley 2 volts rectified measurement ???:) . yep its all in this thread somewhere . The Bemf on these are Playing a factor not in any calculation i suspect . If there is an explanation Its probably more In the Nature of a Higher Bemf or energy from the aether than the actual induced voltage . Again this is in a resonate Mod and the Schematics are posted many times so i won't bother to post them again. But thanks for a Scientific Approach !

Hi gadgetmall,

I included the calculation as mere example for the induction formula, did not mean to refer to any circuits here (though the numbers are not unrealistic at all for a beefy joule thief). :)
Regarding your data, a 10,000 mcd white LED normally consumes indeed 20mA forward current @3.2V forward voltage to light as "superbright" LED @10,000 mcd and within specified viewing angle (ranging 10-25 degree).

So my question is: what you wish to say with your "total bright" description: is the brightness of the 4 LEDs (with the .9V @ .81mA input from battery) is about 1:1 comparable with the brightness of the same LEDs driven by a DC power supply at 3.2V @ 20mA each) and watched from the same viewing angle? (Because the 10,000 mcd brightness comes out from a superbright type LED if your input is like the 3.2V @20mA, from data sheet.)

Do not get me wrong, I do not question the efficiency or COP of your circuit, I simply would like to understand "brightnesses".

Putting it otherwise, let's say your circuit is built into a electric torch case and you use it in total darkness, holding that torch in your hand near and above a book for reading it, and say the 4 LEDs total consumption is .81 mA from .9 V: can you comfortably read, without forcing your eyes at all?
This situation is totally comfortable for reading in the above situation when the LEDs get 3.2V @20mA each directly or from a separate conventional circuit.

Thanks and keep up your excellent work,
Gyula

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 26, 2009, 12:00:20 PM

THERE IS 1 WAY TO MAKE MONEY FROM THIS AND WE ALL ARE DOING IT ...

NO OTHER WAY ....

SELL IT TO YOUR NEIBOUR ....

;)

IST!!

IF YOU WANT TO MASS PRODUCE ..... THEY WANT CONTROL ...

I WILL STAY IN MY OWN CONTROL ..... NOT THERES ... ACCEPT THERE MONEY ... THEY OWN YOU !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL

I WILL NOT SELL MY SOUL............................

THE CHOISE YOURS.............

BTW NOTICE.... WHO DOESENT HAVE A ELIETE TITLE BESIDE THERE NAME .......... ALSO TAKE NOTE TO WHO BEEN SLAMED WITH COMPUTER PROBLEMS..............................

NOT THE ORIGINAL MK2 CREATOR?!?!?!?!?!

HUMMMMMMM

BUT IT IS OK GADGET YOUR ONLY DEALING WITH HEMF................... RESONANCE .... LOL AND ONLY HALF OF IT AT THAT ...

WICH RESOSNANCE IS AN EFFECT OF THE CAUSE .... LOL

AND IT ALL HINGES ON THE LIL KICK .... I EXPOSED LONG AGO ...... I WAS NOT ALONE THEN I AM MOST CERTAINLY NOT NOW ...... LOL

BEMF IS A LIE .......................

I HAVE BEEN SAYING THIS A LONG TIME .... BOCK IT ?!?!?! DO YOU WANT TESLAS OWN WORDS................ I THOUGH SO ....

NOW GET MONEY OFF YOUR MIND.... I HAVE LIVED ON LESS THAN ANY OF YOU ................ DOUBT ME ?!?!?!?!

I STILL HAVE A LIST OF INVESTORS .......................... LOL

BUT IM OPEN SOURCE....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on February 26, 2009, 12:55:14 PM

@IST
Yeah the toroid is Pastel Green with Blue on the top or bottom depending on which way it is sitting. All my toroids were ripped out of a power supply for the bigger ones and I got a few smaller ones out of burnt out CFLs. I'm going to order some off the internet so I know exactly what I have when testing.. Thanks for the advice, I'll try it..

@electricme
My data sheet on my tlc555 timer says it runs 2v-18v. Follow the link I put about JT 555 timer circuits and ppl are claiming to be able to run some 555 timers on only 1v-1.5v I bought 2 tlc555 timers from Radio Shack for $1.59 a piece. Haven't tested them yet, but like I said, the data sheet say minimum 2v for operation. Radio Shack also sells a tlc556 which is 2x tlc555 in a single chip..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 26, 2009, 01:10:31 PM

Quote from: jonnydavro on February 26, 2009, 08:52:35 AM
Hi.Great work going on here and i am following it closely. ;D
A while back when i made a joule thief powering a pulse motor,Pirate suggested puting a dc motor on top off the pulse motor top and tail fashion as a generator well i had a play a while back with the idea and here is the result.I have not used a pulse motor i have top and tailed 2 dc motors.The top one is powered by the cap which is charged by the joule thief and the bottom motor is the generator.Here is a video off it running.This might have possible feed back to sorce potential or maybe chargeing batteries.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ynFm-JwYjY
@electricme.If you are still having problems with utube,let me know and i will send you the vid if you like.
Regards jonnydavro

Good job!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 26, 2009, 01:57:13 PM

OK guys i fired up my comp meter ... ;D

and you all want mesurements .... lol

so be it

my big green coil is running 7.0 -7.8 khz... one could say it is in a close state to magnetic resosnance .... 8)

lol

also i will add a picture of the unit as it sits ... im makeing the second supply mk2 coil

ist

ps when i finally get the print screen deal to work with this computer i will post a comp readout of my coils for every one then scope shoots .... sure i have all the tools .... i might get to digging out my micro amp meters .... lol blew 1 up already tho ...

but i have a few of them :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: wattsup on February 26, 2009, 03:11:40 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on February 26, 2009, 12:00:20 PM
THERE IS 1 WAY TO MAKE MONEY FROM THIS AND WE ALL ARE DOING IT ...
NO OTHER WAY ....
SELL IT TO YOUR NEIBOUR ....
;)
IST!!
IF YOU WANT TO MASS PRODUCE ..... THEY WANT CONTROL ...
I WILL STAY IN MY OWN CONTROL ..... NOT THERES ... ACCEPT THERE MONEY ... THEY OWN YOU !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL
I WILL NOT SELL MY SOUL............................
THE CHOISE YOURS.............
BTW NOTICE.... WHO DOESENT HAVE A ELIETE TITLE BESIDE THERE NAME .......... ALSO TAKE NOTE TO WHO BEEN SLAMED WITH COMPUTER PROBLEMS..............................
NOT THE ORIGINAL MK2 CREATOR?!?!?!?!?!
HUMMMMMMM
BUT IT IS OK GADGET YOUR ONLY DEALING WITH HEMF................... RESONANCE .... LOL AND ONLY HALF OF IT AT THAT ...
WICH RESOSNANCE IS AN EFFECT OF THE CAUSE .... LOL
AND IT ALL HINGES ON THE LIL KICK .... I EXPOSED LONG AGO ...... I WAS NOT ALONE THEN I AM MOST CERTAINLY NOT NOW ...... LOL
BEMF IS A LIE .......................
I HAVE BEEN SAYING THIS A LONG TIME .... BOCK IT ?!?!?! DO YOU WANT TESLAS OWN WORDS................ I THOUGH SO ....
NOW GET MONEY OFF YOUR MIND.... I HAVE LIVED ON LESS THAN ANY OF YOU ................ DOUBT ME ?!?!?!?!
I STILL HAVE A LIST OF INVESTORS .......................... LOL
BUT IM OPEN SOURCE....

HALA F'N LUYA
Finally sunk in. I had prepared a post for you two weeks ago about this same question but decided I better let you figure it out. Great.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 26, 2009, 03:34:38 PM

well

;D ;D

hello wattsup lol

yep amen!!!! eh? lol well i have a cnc mill debt to square up lol im not worried i hear they need some solar amped electricty ... ;D lol

and i need my 200 hp jt pulse motor lol

im sure we will work something out ... plus i hear there looseing work .... as things crash ....

good thing all 4 mills all tools are owned eh ;) and not by the bank ......

anyhow i have had many offers but as you all know this is a big job and can not be done alone ...

so

yea!!

enjoy...

H!STEAM!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 26, 2009, 04:12:54 PM

Quote from: electricme on February 26, 2009, 02:18:02 AM
@Ist,
Nice setup of your battery charging photo, glad you have been able to make it work, and fast at that.

@jadaro2600,
I think you mare seeing the effect of inrush current, electrons pile up when you switch on a circuit, then they even out and flow through better.

What did you use to draw your circuit? where can I get it from?

General jim

I have no motor running on my joule thief - it seems like a good idea though - but it would have to be a special motor or it might fry, maybe a voltage based motor!? I did give some diode advice though to someone with a motor on the jtc.

I used a program called DIA - it's part of the gnome project and it's fairly easy to use. http://www.gnome.org/projects/dia/ (http://www.gnome.org/projects/dia/) I used the electronics sheet - i had to add it to the installation. I'm not sure if this program supports antialiasing exports in windows - but it does on-screen. It's really good looking too - but the template sheets are somewhat spartan. It's also free. there is a windows and linux version. Dia currently supports antialiasing, which makes the the screen look great, but exports are crap at the moment.

Unless you have a cmos 555 timer, it's going to drain a good bit of current just being a timer. This is why I inquired about a frequency divider or something to that effect - if the frequency of the oscillation can be dumbed down, then I imagine, by theory, the current would increase.

Dia examples: one exported, the other with dia's anti aliasing setting screen captured with gimp. After looking at the forum output - the actual diagrams are different when viewed through the link, or if you right click on the image and select 'view image'

@IST
LOL - I think I get what's behind this all - There's enough prior art available in the patent trove for there to be an invalidation call on almost any ou device simply because of the wealth of knowledge available open source.

*edited for accuracy * :P

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 26, 2009, 04:28:37 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on February 26, 2009, 04:12:54 PM

@IST
LOL - I think I get what's behind this all - There's enough prior art available in the patent trove for there to an invalidation call an almost any ou device simply because of the wealth of knowledge available open source.

*edited for accuracy * :P

almost ;D ;)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 26, 2009, 05:20:47 PM

@all

The only thing that money will bring here is restriction of knowledge, if you offer money to someone , the real effect is a it stops the progress , people will want to stop sharing and even erase there post, yes a lot of you guys are smart but we get
more by sharing . First is because we do good , and the creator likes that and gives us more clues to keep helping , if you get distracted by money no more help for you , people will help you but not the big one. Don't get confused tell me how constructive it is to restrict knowledge with money , because people hold on to knowledge they think is worth some thing , and get confused and don't evolve because of there own restraint. Guys don't get confused i am not attacking any one , but ask your self , if what i am saying is true .

I did have to go thou it my self and got out of it. Yes in this world we need money , why is there misery in this world because there always someone to make money of your back. We are only empty containers , built to make money and make someone else rich . That is not the world i like or want leave to next generation .
You still don't get it , think the matrix yes we are all on a grid and linked by wires , try getting someone away from those wires , and you will see they don't feel right , and don't feel safe . Why is that.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: maw2432 on February 26, 2009, 05:27:06 PM

@ IST and everyone wanting to make money - This is also one more reason to open source vs. patents!!!

Check out the movie titled "Flash of Genius" just released at BlockBuster. True story based on the struggle of the guy who invented the intermittent windshield wipers and his fight against the big auto industry even though he had 5 patents.

Inventors should really see this movie.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 26, 2009, 05:56:09 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on February 26, 2009, 11:36:39 AM
YOU ARE ARE YOU ...................................

LOL LOL

DID THEY OFFER YOU YOUR MULTI PASS!?!?!?!?!?!?!

LOL

THEY SUCK!!!!

ASK THEM ABOUT THERE FUEL LESS CAR!!!

LOL

THEY ROBB THEY STEAL ....... AND PAY YOU SHIT!!!!!

ASK ME AGIN WHERE I DRAW CONCLUSIONS FROM ;D ;D ;D

DONT BELEAVE ME ..... GO ASK RICHARD .... LOL

THEY WILL FAIL.... WHY?!?!?!?!?! CUZ THEY CAN NOT PATTEND IT .....

DO NOT THINK WHAT YOU HAVE DONE GADGET IS NEW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! PERHAPS NEW TO YOU LOL

THEY WILL GAIN NO PATTENDS IF THEY DO IT IS BECAUSE THEY STOLE......................................

;)

I HAVE LAYED MY CLAIMES 3 YEARS AGO AND I CONTINUE TO DO SO

BE THIS KNOWEN IF YOU STEAL FROM ME ...... ;D I WILL NOT BE BROKE ALL MY LIFE ...........................

AND I WILL RECLAIM ALL OF MY WORK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I KNOW YEARS AGO WHAT I HAVE DONE .... ;D

KEEPS ME IN MY GAME!!!!
;)

IST!!!

;)

THINK TWICE ... I HAVE ... ;D

NOW WHO WANTS REAL FREE ENGERY ??

I CAN BE CONTACTED VIA ISTEAM .CA AS WELL I WORK WITH MK1... REMEMBER WHOS RING IT IS .... 8)

HENCE WHO WILL BE GRANTED THE PATTEND .... LOL

IM NOT WORRIED BOUT PATTENDS ... AS I CAN PATTEND WHAT I LIKE ;D 8)

WHY!?!?!?!?!

HEY JUST LOOK AT PNP NPN AND NO BODY IS THERE YET PUBLIC ANYHOW...

WELL

THINK ABOUT IT WERE YOU OFFERED BILLIONS OF DOLLARS ... I WAS!!!!

8)

MONEY IS THE LIE .................................. LOL

BTW THAT WAS NOT JUST 1 BILLION BUT 100'S OF THEM

LOL

THEN THEY TELL ME AFTER I TEACH THEM I HAVE NOTHING ...

HENCE HERE WE ARE ..................... NOW I GUESS THEW WHOLE WORLD HAS NOTHING IN THERE EYES .... BUT WE KNOW BETTER 8)

SURE THEY WILL SAY O JUST GET IT DONE I WILL PAY FOR IT ... LOL

SURE THEY WILL .....

SO WHEN THEY WALK AND STIFF YOU WITH THE BILL ..... YOU WILL KNOW ... I HAVE A 1000 DOLLAR CNC BILL..............

THANKS ..... BUT THE WHOLE WORLD HAS FREE ENGERY THAT THE BAD GUYS WILL NOT PATTEND AND IF THEY DO

I WILL HAVE THERE PATTENDS REVOKED ;D

THINK I CANT DO IT ?!?!?!?!

PERHAPS YOU READ ALL MY PAST POSTS... LOL AND WHEN THINGS CLICK

I CAN SAY TOLD YOU SO ..... LOL

Ist I'm doing it for free dude .I didn't ask for a dime other than to be part of something world changing :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 26, 2009, 05:56:34 PM

@ Bill:

I'll bet that is a great movie. I will see if I can find it online. (I watch all of my movies online, most of them before they are released in video/dvd format)

My opinion once again: Patents are useless. Until someone goes through this they may think otherwise but, again my opinion, I went through it and it is a waste of time and money and useless. Of course, everyone is free to think what they want, I have no problems with differing opinions. Look at Tesla (I just read another book about him) Marconi, Edison and many others all jumped many of his patents and........he died a poor man.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 26, 2009, 06:12:08 PM

Quote from: gyulasun on February 26, 2009, 11:48:20 AM
Hi gadgetmall,

I included the calculation as mere example for the induction formula, did not mean to refer to any circuits here (though the numbers are not unrealistic at all for a beefy joule thief). :)
Regarding your data, a 10,000 mcd white LED normally consumes indeed 20mA forward current @3.2V forward voltage to light as "superbright" LED @10,000 mcd and within specified viewing angle (ranging 10-25 degree).

So my question is: what you wish to say with your "total bright" description: is the brightness of the 4 LEDs (with the .9V @ .81mA input from battery) is about 1:1 comparable with the brightness of the same LEDs driven by a DC power supply at 3.2V @ 20mA each) and watched from the same viewing angle? (Because the 10,000 mcd brightness comes out from a superbright type LED if your input is like the 3.2V @20mA, from data sheet.)

Do not get me wrong, I do not question the efficiency or COP of your circuit, I simply would like to understand "brightnesses".

Putting it otherwise, let's say your circuit is built into a electric torch case and you use it in total darkness, holding that torch in your hand near and above a book for reading it, and say the 4 LEDs total consumption is .81 mA from .9 V: can you comfortably read, without forcing your eyes at all?
This situation is totally comfortable for reading in the above situation when the LEDs get 3.2V @20mA each directly or from a separate conventional circuit.

Thanks and keep up your excellent work,
Gyula

Its what i consider usable Light and im half blind :) .No i'm not over driving em or anything but yea i can read from them and it lights a room up at night but you know i know what dim is . Dim is what My earth battery produces on its worst day abut 20 % and you have to be pitch dark to get any use out of it . Normally its 40 % and light the computer room up at night so i dont stub my toes :) But i really do thank the scientific explanation for that because it is Great information to have and you know it will be used . Take a circuit made with a calculation and you know we can make it even better current wise . . Keep up the great work and keep it coming !!. Just because i can't understand why some calculations don't flush with some of these projects is not meant to be Negative . Thanks Guy for replying to me .
Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 26, 2009, 07:26:07 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on February 26, 2009, 12:00:20 PM
THERE IS 1 WAY TO MAKE MONEY FROM THIS AND WE ALL ARE DOING IT ...

NO OTHER WAY ....

SELL IT TO YOUR NEIBOUR ....

;)

IST!!

IF YOU WANT TO MASS PRODUCE ..... THEY WANT CONTROL ...

I WILL STAY IN MY OWN CONTROL ..... NOT THERES ... ACCEPT THERE MONEY ... THEY OWN YOU !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL

I WILL NOT SELL MY SOUL............................

THE CHOISE YOURS.............

BTW NOTICE.... WHO DOESENT HAVE A ELIETE TITLE BESIDE THERE NAME .......... ALSO TAKE NOTE TO WHO BEEN SLAMED WITH COMPUTER PROBLEMS..............................

NOT THE ORIGINAL MK2 CREATOR?!?!?!?!?!

HUMMMMMMM

BUT IT IS OK GADGET YOUR ONLY DEALING WITH HEMF................... RESONANCE .... LOL AND ONLY HALF OF IT AT THAT ...

WICH RESOSNANCE IS AN EFFECT OF THE CAUSE .... LOL

AND IT ALL HINGES ON THE LIL KICK .... I EXPOSED LONG AGO ...... I WAS NOT ALONE THEN I AM MOST CERTAINLY NOT NOW ...... LOL

BEMF IS A LIE .......................

I HAVE BEEN SAYING THIS A LONG TIME .... BOCK IT ?!?!?! DO YOU WANT TESLAS OWN WORDS................ I THOUGH SO ....

NOW GET MONEY OFF YOUR MIND.... I HAVE LIVED ON LESS THAN ANY OF YOU ................ DOUBT ME ?!?!?!?!

I STILL HAVE A LIST OF INVESTORS .......................... LOL

BUT IM OPEN SOURCE....

Chill out William. your paranoid bro . Its got nothing to do with you . and i got a son thats as young as you :) some of this stuff i did 30 years ago . . ok . Its got nothing to do with mk or you . I didnot hack his computer . he is My friend . i thought . GEZZZZZ .

@all My Mods are here . I have hid nothing and contributed what is considered the Best info that has helped further the life of a dead battery further than it every had been . I was the FIRST ONE to do the lowest current draw for an led circuit on this Site OPEN SOURCE .same for the Fugi . If i wasnt , someone show me a dated Circuit with better Current draw than mine or for that Fact Jeanna's because she actually came up with the very first actually Measurement and i believe it was .70 ma per led . Still better than any circuit on the net .and she lit 40 i believe. . We are the only ones who took the time to take some action and measurements for the Benefit of all of you . Even a Commerical Jt can't do it better now . . You think so . prove it / So now i know how Jesus felt when Judas Betrayed him . And you know what . I Still Love ya all .And i will share what i got if you even care to see it .

GN
Gadget .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 26, 2009, 07:59:39 PM

@all

By the way any one here know about bob beck , the inventor of the flash circuit. I problem is thinking ideas are our own , but then tesla did all this 150 years ago and what did he get , nada . Don't think you will get more , the only way to make money is save the money you get now , stop spending for energy , this can only be done if every one get free from slavery .

Don't get offended here , money is good , but is also the only thing that can stop us here . private things every time you get something new its only coming from the collective mind not your own , its given to many . Some are just better at understanding it . My self i think i am just stating the obvious, after looking at everyones work , the answer is there .

I have been watching you all before , making my self known , any one can play chess but it doesn't mean you are any good.
When building something new , you get helped , there is always a part that show it self to you , free of charge , and where is that coming from ?

Try explaining something as simple as 1+1 , and people still don't understand , its not because there dumb , but because there not the ones with good intent and are slowed down until they get real , if not thy wont get it or go past the first step.
The old ways brought us here , if we don't get rid of it , we will never go past this.

Good luck to all ! now do you have a good heart , only you can answer , if your experiment are not going well , look inside and the help needed will come when you are ready . all of this we are doing now is old real old stuff , lets not keep it hidden any longer.

For those thinking a got a loose bolt , good luck ! I have been there !

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 26, 2009, 08:06:41 PM

@all

Batteries are good at discharging , and not really efficient at charging , so you lose energy !

I don't like that but that is the problem.

You want free light make a home made battery when it stops working put more electrolyte in them and get a second run.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 26, 2009, 08:33:17 PM

@ mk1 im working with what i have now not what i will have later

the fone batteries work ok to prove the point ... super caps will work better ..... but i aint got any lol

my little shake lites work awsome with this ..... the darn thing is still charged i have not charged it in days...

ist

now there is confusion ... lol

gadget im not saying anything bad to you .....

nor am i saying anyone hacked anyone ..... wtf .... lol

ok im back to work ....

i need to finish this i got another 50 things to build lol

anyone ready to design kits of there contraptions ... simple things we can list them ...

we can forward any and all orders to the creators ...

as a means to keep it flowing ...

yes tesla did a lot .... but not all of it :) and there will always be things to learn ....

ist!

back to make more things as i do

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 26, 2009, 08:40:01 PM

@ist

Connect the 3.6 volt battery to the voltage divider it will run 3 jt at 1.2 volts each , and charge the battery with has many coils needed to keep the battery around 3.6, also if you coil doesn't get a higher voltage with a different value resistor doesn't mean that it is ok, faster switching will send more current out at the same voltage . Keep the good work!

Mark

@gadget , only you can know if your intent are good, but thanks for your mod , but its time to get busy , and stop thinking you got something great , yes you did , but that's not the point. You are the one how is telling us that you keep some for your self .

I don't care , but you should. Because people won't share with you anymore, its just human i am sure you get that.
Btw , stop those pills , your are looking for your self and will only be there without them . I am sure you look at doing better but what you are looking for is your self .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 26, 2009, 08:47:11 PM

I have yet to make sense out of any calculations on this thread.

At any point, I'm having trouble measuring the frequency on my circuit. Can someone take a look and tell me where to stick the leads - I have a dmm that can measure up to 10mhz.

nm, ..i found that if I increased my resistance, i get a reading of 53-54khz ..decreasing the resisitance results in there not being a reading. This must come as a result of the frequency exceeding the 10mhz capability of my dmm, or it could just be the low voltage there. This is taken between the base and the collector.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 26, 2009, 09:27:29 PM

on my mk2 supply coil i just finished i have 5 feeds ...

from a dead aa ....

they read ... 52.8khz on my jt rectifier ... voltage is 16.17 dc on out puts secondaries they are as followes

1 38.56vdc ... 43.22khz
2 37.72vdc 43.22khz
3 47.30vdc 42.22khz
4 47.30vdc 42.22khz

freq are ac readings.... volts are rectified dc ....

ist

all mesurements were done with out leds ...

gadget it is all good ... and your verry important to the opensource comunity ...

so dont feel like i came down on you bro ... not my intent ... i make my shit known!! as should you ...

i have something for you if you like :) ;)

spring is in the air ... :P

and now the good news i added jt recovery batteries 2 of them off the jt bridge .. they are chargeing ... and i still have 15+ vdc on the secondaries .....

;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 26, 2009, 11:36:02 PM

@ Gadgetmall,
Hi Al, yep, we still don't understand the torid and what takes place inside it, somehow it's the collapsing magnetic fields (plural) that gives out this extra energy. The right hand rule applies in most cases, but I read somewhere that the direction of the magnetic field can be made to go clockwise and counterclockwise, then there is eddy currents which flow, all at the same time also.

The collapsing of the magnetic fields could setup a seperate energy all of its own, (that we don't even know of it's existance) this is a guess on my part but, but scientists tell us that the nucleus of the atom has still more energy particles not yet discovered. Mabe the JT is the tool to find them???????

Mabe its negative energy we have here? :-\

@ Jonnydavro,
If you could send your double topsy generator video to me by email that would be great, TA. :D

@all,
Has anyone ever used EasyTrax, used to design PCBs, I'm getting too many loose wire leads and moving parts that need to be anchored down properly, I forever resoldering wire connections to parts etc etc.

I must get back to reading up the accumilated posts, this forum isnt galloping along, its the Tokyo Express. ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 26, 2009, 11:44:31 PM

Quote from: maw2432 on February 26, 2009, 05:27:06 PM
@ IST and everyone wanting to make money - This is also one more reason to open source vs. patents!!!

Check out the movie titled "Flash of Genius" just released at BlockBuster. True story based on the struggle of the guy who invented the intermittent windshield wipers and his fight against the big auto industry even though he had 5 patents.

Inventors should really see this movie.

Bill

@ All:

Bill is right, this is a movie everyone should see.

You can see it here for free: http://free-movie-online.co.uk/2009/02/flash-of-genius-2008/ (there is a part 1 and 2)
It plays great with the Divx player which you can get for free.

I have finished part one and am now starting part 2. This is a must see for all of us that create and come up with ideas and devices. Thanks Bill for the suggestion.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 26, 2009, 11:45:00 PM

@ Gadgetmall,
This is in reply to your post halfway down on P325, I'm still checking the forum posts, got 5 to go.

Hope your little girl gets well soon, it's no fun being crook, take good care of her Daddy, and I'm thinking of you both.
Thanks for you very kind words Al, much appreceiated.

Hooroo
General Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 26, 2009, 11:48:49 PM

I don't even use ferrite. I just coil around a coil. See my previous posts, page... oh to hell with it, picture included.

And no one has yet explained to me why electricity would rather flow through the LED rather than the transistor E-C path. I don't know how this circuit works with regard to this path. I do know, however, that the higher the resistance, the lower the oscillations of the magnetic flux.

# of turns are inaccurate to the image below.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on February 27, 2009, 12:06:03 AM

Hi all

This was posted by Room3327 back in January on the Towards Realizing the TPU thread, anyways, since we're playing with toroid coils I thought I'd mention it on this thread.

I don't remember seeing this mentioned and if I did miss it then sorry!

In this thread http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5486.msg151756#msg151756 Room3327 gave a pretty good example of how Tesla's 381,970 could be driven by an electronic circuit.

I'm posting a basic idea photo of what I'm seeing as far as the JT is concerned, any constructive ideas as far as circuitry would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 27, 2009, 12:16:21 AM

Just for clarification, I've put my coils at 90 degrees to one another.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 27, 2009, 12:17:09 AM

@Hazens1,
Thank you for that info on the 555 timer, I didnt think it would get to such a low voltage, but then I have had another thought, as LAPTOPS have been designed to run on ultra low voltage and current, just maybe this could also be a source of parts to use with the Joule Thief.

Going to keep my eyes open for junked laptops for now on.

Thanks for that 555 info Hazens1, very good stuff that. ;D

General Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 27, 2009, 02:14:54 AM

Quote from: Goat on February 27, 2009, 12:06:03 AM
Hi all

This was posted by Room3327 back in January on the Towards Realizing the TPU thread, anyways, since we're playing with toroid coils I thought I'd mention it on this thread.

I don't remember seeing this mentioned and if I did miss it then sorry!

In this thread http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5486.msg151756#msg151756 Room3327 gave a pretty good example of how Tesla's 381,970 could be driven by an electronic circuit.

I'm posting a basic idea photo of what I'm seeing as far as the JT is concerned, any constructive ideas as far as circuitry would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Paul

Hi Goat , good one , thanks for the reminder , this is a picture of my Tesla pat test toy. Its all in this tread but most don't have time to read the tread in full , i do think it its a good read. but there you go.

I used 2 jt at 90 degrees interval , got 60 volts from pickup coil output ! But there are not tuned or sync. i may need to look at it , now i know how to fix those issue.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on February 27, 2009, 03:04:05 AM

@ MK1

Thanks for the reply, in Room3327's description he mentioned that this Tesla patent mimics Tesla's motor but without a rotor, but he mentioned Line1 and Line2 being 180 degrees out of phase, you mentioned 90 degrees?

I was trying to figure out how to replace the dynamo with the JT circuit to feed Tesla's circuit with the same wire hookups as in the patent. I mentioned two 555 timers in the picture but that was only a thought, is it possible to use only a transistor as the switch to feed these 2 lines in 180 degrees out of phase as Room3327 mentioned?

You'd have to look at all his posts to get the whole idea of what he's talking about.

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 27, 2009, 03:12:17 AM

@goat

the 2 joules thief are at 180, but the toroid is divided into 90 degrees (2x90 degrees for one jt) when one is up the other one is low , each are part of the same ac wave so you need 180 to get the full wave of the ac .

I hope this makes sense .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on February 27, 2009, 03:32:17 AM

@ Mk1

Thanks I see what you are saying but it's a little bit hard trying to visualize Tesla's patent using your circuit as you posted it.

My query here is can you make the toroid coil act as Tesla intended using the same wire setup he had but using the JT or other circuit to drive it so that you get a rotating magnetic field like in a motor to then translate that into the transformer end of it.

Thanks,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 27, 2009, 04:04:20 AM

@ Gadgetmall and all:

My 48 volt fans are not here yet!!! Included in this shipment are also 3 neons so I can finally fire up my Bedini replication. Anyway, my question is this: I know a dc motor will function as a generator without any modification. What I am wondering about is will a brushless fan also work as a generator without mods? I was outside smoking and it is very windy here tonight and I was thinking that if it would, I could make a small wind generator out of a 48 volt brushless fan (I ordered 5 of them) and, using a joule thief, I can light some leds when the wind is blowing. These fans are obviously built differently than a regular dc motor but, does anyone know if they produce any dc when turning on their own by the wind?

Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 27, 2009, 04:29:12 AM

@Goat,
I have looked at the Tesla 381970 patient, it sure does look like a JT torid setup, but it is a dual energy system.

The key to figuring this out is the "generator" at the bottom of the patient.
The "generator" is NOT a generator as we currently think of a generator, rather, this is a sync pulse unit, or a frequency generator, with low output only, it has just enough output to drive the Tesla Donut, thats is it's sole purpose.
If you examine the picture, the primary coils are the only electrical devices connected to the output, therefore it dosn't require a big amount of energy or power to "excite" the primary coils, which look as though they are wound with much thinner wires.

It works similar to a exciter which is placed on very old generators, their purpose was to provide a small output to start the main generator.
These older generators just would not work without the "excitors"

All this by the way is without reading the patient itself, just looking at the drawing gives me a awful lot of info, I will download and read this patient later on.

OK, the generator I think is being used as the "exciter" or energy maker for the torid, the torid is the actual generator itself with "no moving parts". I would expect the torid would be a single iron bar, it "may" have an "air gap"

The main shaft has 2 sets of 2 slip rings, they could be mistaken as 3 phase or a "star" connections with a 4th slip ring for earth or as in a alternator the "NS" connection, but, these "may be" and I think I am right, are 2 seperate circuits which alternate the output energy to the 2 seperate primary windings which are 90 degrees from the other circuit.

The first circuit, which is fed by the first set of slip rings, feeds energy to 2 sets of primary coils 180 degrees from each other.
The other set of slip rings feeds another set of windings setup as the first set, but at 90 degrees to the first set.

When the exciter shaft is at every 180 degrees of rotation, the torid field collapses, producing a high energy captured by the larger torid coils, so there is 2 pulses revolution.
hmmm ....................not sure ,

(SHADES OF THE MARK 1 and 2 COILS)

MK1 heres your chance, make a MK4 coil, just like this but powered by 2 seperate JT, but have the JT outputs at 180 degreese to each other but in sync with each other, there are, General Jim suggestered it on the 27th of February 2009, ha ha ha.

Prophesy (The Joule Thief is going to go BIG) I'm talking about going into big 1 meter diameter hoops or torids or even bigger.
3 phase, 4 phase, 6 phase, 8 phases 16 phases, 32 phases, 64 phases phewwwwww.
The JT seems to work with Iron as well as ferite, a big steel former should not matter.

Lets get back to the matter at hand.
There are TWO seperate outputs, both energising seperate loads, these windings are designated by the heavier wires, which seem to me to have lesser turns than the primaries.

So what is Tesla trying to do with this item?
I think he stumbled (or thought) how to capture the eather energy" by using a small excitor setup instead of building a huge engine and generator without all the size and weight that comes with a nigraha falls unit.

I saw a couple of chaps on U Tube who had a really huge coil setup that could put out a fair amount of power, this thing seemed to run by itself, examining the images, the coils seemed to have been wound on a steel vertical round former, almost like they had cut a 6 inch in width of a 2 foot diameter steel pipe, and wound the coils around the steel pipe section.
This thing almost filled the width of a coffee table. hmmmmmmm bigtime.

Mabe they had a capacitor start to pulse it up, it wouldn't take too much to replicate this, might get a steel pipe offcut in town and have a bit of a play with this thing, very interresting this one.

Ist's LED light generators crank handle to recharge his nicads could start it up.
I got plenty of copper wire, from microwave transformers, yearrrrrrrssss, I got to make this.

General Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 27, 2009, 04:40:55 AM

@electricme

I did do that like the tesla pat. 8 coil , 2xjt coil , 4 pickups coils , an i read the patent , its a step up and step down transformer
depending on the way the coil are connected. And got me at the mk series toroids. i posted the circuit back in December.
To me the exciter is a switching system could be replace by transistor , i could not get them in sync now i can. The picture on last page is the result. The colored coils are the jt coils and the other are plain mag wire. Since i could not sync them a made the mk1, from one jt. Btw the exciter has it own patent. Not many people know that.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 27, 2009, 04:55:36 AM

I was taking measurements off my jtc for voltage, I had a little radio nearby playing and noticed that there was radio interference when I touched a probe - RF popping, but then it would go away. I know this is natural of electrical signals, but should this be something to worry with?

What if it completely blanked the signal?

What if building a very large one were to create a massive radio transmitter with whimsical broadcast frequencies at unusual wattages and field strengths?

What I meant by 90 degrees to one another was that the normal ferrite core has been replaced with a toroidal copper coil, and this is / was wound as a ferrite core would normally be with the second winding ( voltage collector ) on the outside.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 27, 2009, 05:07:01 AM

Jadaro:

Have you seen my video on joule thief sounds? Here is a link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=041LPyBJULs

You might find it interesting.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 27, 2009, 05:44:21 AM

@Pirate,
I suddenly realised we have 2 bills here now.
Got your PM, no offence taken mate, I accidently pressed the send button, then without thinking wrote some stuff and it wouldn't send, siii
The mouse war is still here, thought it was over.lol

Bill, I have a way you can find out if a fan can be used to be a weather machine ;D
Get 2 12v dc fans, put one so it will drive the other by blowing wind against the 2nd fan, connect the DMM leads to the 2nd fan wires and see if there is voltage there.
If there is, then it will do the job.
Else take the small CD Rom door drive motor and stick a prop about 12" or more long on the shaft, plonk it all on a weather vane to face the wind automaticly, it will work.

@jadaro2600,
Interference fix.
Get some alfoil, cut it into thin strips and cover the torid with it. Wind the strips as you would wind on copper wire, (1 layer will do) this becames a "faraday cage" keeping any radiated frequency enclosed, make sure you earth it though.

General Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on February 27, 2009, 08:19:40 AM

Whoa, what's this ?? :)
Are we starting to move the JT into the direction of the TPU now?

That Tesla patent pic seems to show we are... ;)
Well, why not eh... We've moved from a simple autotransformer to a three or more coil
mag amp setup already,
now with some adjusting it would just be a sort of TPU, wouldn't it?
So, we're going to make the magnetic poles rotate within the core while using the
coils to provide the input pulses as well as collect the output AC?
Great! :)

I bet IST will have a field day ;D

perhaps it would be interesting to look at the posts in this thread too,
in this respect? http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6734.msg159852#msg159852
(basically that post and those below it, but the one above it may also be helpfull)
Those that have experience with TPUs, Tesla's "spinning egg" toroid, and autotransformers
based on a 2-phase "stepper motor" coil setup, will probably recognise what is said
as old stuff, but it may be usefull to those who haven't read much about that yet.

For now, I am going to assume that is what we're heading towards: using at least
4 coils to induce a magnetic field, switching the coil input in such a phase that
the magnetic field "poles" rotate within the core, and then perform the same trick
as we have been doing in the classic JT of using the coils together as pickup coil
and getting higher voltage pulses out...

So... Am I warm yet? Close? What do you guys think? :) ;)

Quote from: electricme on February 27, 2009, 05:44:21 AM
Interference fix.
Get some alfoil, cut it into thin strips and cover the torid with it. Wind the strips as you would wind on copper wire, (1 layer will do) this becames a "faraday cage" keeping any radiated frequency enclosed, make sure you earth it though.

General Jim

Yes, I have read about and seen such type of shielding... Although it wasn't on a coil...
It was a wire that carried signals of a specific frequency, and they used strips of aluminium
that were just a little less wide than the wavelength of the signal was, and the strips all
overlapped with each next strip overlapping the last part of the previous.
The reason for that was, as I recall, that this produces a maximal decrease of the em signal
which is now reflected back to the wire and has no chance to squeeze through the overlapping
strips, but also does not induce strong eddies in the shielding either.
Just fyi. ;)

kind regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 27, 2009, 11:03:11 AM

sure ill whip 1 up but not right now ;D

i have 40 steel pipe cores ;D 5 and 6 " 1/4" thick 2.5 and 3" tall plus a bunch of .5 " keepers ;)

i have a BUNCH OF 22GA WIRE TOO AND 14 GA ;D

but im still building the darn last unit lol

im on it tho

i have already maybe 30 -40 rings built similar to that pattend ... but sure ill do it

lol

i think i need a super cap off the jt bridge first then the batterys ... might speed up the charge time .... im useing 2 engizer rechargleable batteries in the jt recovery holder and useing a disposable aa to drive the unit ... the aa rechargeables are 2500mah each ... so they charge but quite slowly

my devider is easly recharged ... but they do drain out might be because the divider tho ... perhaps it should be switched ...

i would like to finish this unit correctly b4 i move along ... 8)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 27, 2009, 11:37:48 AM

check this out 8)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_gO2EvrKsc

;) ;) ;)

ist!

a new pic ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 27, 2009, 01:37:34 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 26, 2009, 08:40:01 PM
@ist

@gadget , only you can know if your intent are good, but thanks for your mod , but its time to get busy , and stop thinking you got something great , yes you did , but that's not the point. You are the one how is telling us that you keep some for your self .

I don't care , but you should. Because people won't share with you anymore, its just human i am sure you get that.
Btw , stop those pills , your are looking for your self and will only be there without them . I am sure you look at doing better but what you are looking for is your self .

Why Thank you Mark o'le buddy . Wow and to think that My Doctor said i would die without them and had to take them for the rest of My life . Man ... I didn't know Pot Heads were so smart and could Diagnose someone thru the Internet and had Phd's in Pharmacology and a Heart Specialist too . Thanks Alot . I sure didn't want to be on 5 pills a day for the rest of My Life . I'll Stop and and Tell My Specialist i have another one . I am So Lucky to have you as a friend . :-\

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 27, 2009, 03:19:38 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on February 27, 2009, 01:37:34 PM
Why Thank you Mark o'le buddy . Wow and to think that My Doctor said i would die without them and had to take them for the rest of My life . Man ... I didn't know Pot Heads were so smart and could Diagnose someone thru the Internet and had Phd's in Pharmacology and a Heart Specialist too . Thanks Alot . I sure didn't want to be on 5 pills a day for the rest of My Life . I'll Stop and and Tell My Specialist i have another one . I am So Lucky to have you as a friend . >:(

You lets your ego run you ? you are the one how talk about antidepressant, if not i am sorry for my mistake (then i am sorry)heart med you did not talk about that so i don't feel bad about it , yes you may have done that 50 years ago , how rich did you get , you think this time will be different ? Good luck with that, then keep it all for your self , like you mention on this tread and in Jesus one , by the way you did tell me about it. I don't need to learn about it (and don't feel the need to), so don't get confused by my motive. Yes lowering the input is good but if i need 100 turns on a pickup coil to get a few led half lit , i doesn't interest me , i prefer getting over 100 volts from 20 mili , that is my point .

I am saying this for your benefit, if you think pot head is a insult well , so be it! And yes if i had the money for it i would !

I guess you missing the point old man .

You know what they say , about the truth !

Mark

1 mili at 20 khz is the same consumption has 20 mili at 1 khz , so ?

For everyone else i am sorry , for this , money clouds judgement.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 27, 2009, 03:20:34 PM

im almost done the second board i added my super caps to the jt rectifier and i will add another diode from the super cap to the batterys

thease supercaps i found in 1 shake it a cheep one and i found the other in an old vcr 5.5vdc .047f both same value but diffrent in size ...

i hope this will imporve the aa recharge time

i have no problems with the secondaries it took a while to charge them but they are holding well i turned off the charger a while ago and it still reads 3.671vdc 8)

no i never powered anything yet with thease batteries ... maybe today see how it goes ...

get along you 2.... >:( >:(

ist!!

finally both boards are done 1 is not working perhaps a blowen transistor but any way it is done both have super caps in them as a buffer to recharge the 4 aa batteries my other bord is done and working awesome ... it recharges at a much faster rate ... then with out the super cap and diode ...

ill take the compleate pic of the power supply /charge / 6pac driver unit soon as i figure out what is wrong with the second board

:)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 27, 2009, 05:27:21 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 27, 2009, 05:07:01 AM
Jadaro:

Have you seen my video on joule thief sounds? Here is a link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=041LPyBJULs

You might find it interesting.

Bill

Thanks for that - that little experiment proved to me that as the saturation creates heat in the coil transformers, the radiant frequency increases.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 27, 2009, 09:39:22 PM

Heres a little video I thought was neat.
Lighting a neon and LED wireless off the JT.

Just setting a neon by the JT it will light then I can light LED's off the neon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n6GXTptgh4

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 27, 2009, 10:06:05 PM

;D

FINALLY .. that was a pain in .... lol

got them both done working and rechargeing 4 aa batteries plus chargeing the 6 way splitter .. at a faster rate of charge but it sure aint light speed lol

but i can watch my 2 aa engizer 2500 mah batteries climb in voltage ... this is only cuz my meter has 3 . places ... lol

but un loaded the super caps fill super quick ...

so i will take a pic of the unit now..

and im on to assembling the entire unit ...

ist!!

@slayer hummmmm lol ;) you got some radient engery there some where ....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 27, 2009, 10:26:02 PM

Slayer:

That is an amazing discovery there! Is this some type of induction or is it radiant energy as IST suggested?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 27, 2009, 10:34:00 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 27, 2009, 10:26:02 PM
Slayer:

That is an amazing discovery there! Is this some type of induction or is it radiant energy as IST suggested?

Bill

Thanks Bill

I'm not really sure.
But when I tutch the led to the neon the neon got brighter.
I'm guess it because I was the ground on the other end of the led.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 27, 2009, 11:05:39 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 27, 2009, 03:19:38 PM

I am saying this for your benefit, if you think pot head is a insult well , so be it! And yes if i had the money for it i would !

I guess you missing the point old man .

You know what they say , about the truth !

Mark

1 mili at 20 khz is the same consumption has 20 mili at 1 khz , so ?

For everyone else i am sorry , for this , money clouds judgement.

Thanks you Mark .Or should i say Marcus Welby ? :) For Remembering My Birthday !! Yep Im old today !!Well then why in the world did you wait for me to do it first where you allready knew that every one was looking for a better Jt ? huh ? .? Never mind . God will Judge Us accordingly and so with that being the case for all . Money doesn't cloud My Judgment , the lack of it does for feeding My Lassie .You DONT GET IT !!

@@ ALL Well Here is a little boxed Fugi gadget with a Switch and power indicator adjusted for long burn time on a cfl . I was thinking of add a receptical for plugging in Led Christmas Light Strings or the cfl so its a complete portable emergency , Alternative energy power source providing usable Light for a long time from an aa Battery . This one is made with love and given to someone here on the Fourm .

Happy Birthday to Me !
Gadget ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 27, 2009, 11:26:58 PM

Happy Birthday Al!!!!!!!

I hope you have a great day.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 27, 2009, 11:32:29 PM

happy birthday GADGET !!! ;D 8) 8)

YOU MAY BE AN OLDER FART BUT I KNOW YOU ARE A KID AT PLAY... LIFE IS A HARD PLACE....

we all know this.... tooo well

get the part lists for the kits!!!! togather the new web page is almost done... ;D

and we should have a SELL OFF!!! ;D ;D

and see what we can come up with for kits that can be sold ... i have lots of space on my page ... and being it is flash oreinted it only takes seconds to add MORE!!! ;D

so ....

if we BUILD IT THEY WILL BUY IT !!! ;D LOL

BUT WHAT DO I KNOW :P LOL

AGIN HAPPY BIRTHDAY ...

ist!!

and a pic.... ;D

all done tested working as planed ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on February 28, 2009, 01:30:45 AM

Nevermind, I got them to work :)

Nice video!

"Your last 2 videos say they are no longer available??"

Quote from: slayer007 on February 27, 2009, 09:39:22 PM
Heres a little video I thought was neat.
Lighting a neon and LED wireless off the JT.

Just setting a neon by the JT it will light then I can light LED's off the neon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n6GXTptgh4

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 28, 2009, 01:33:57 AM

I believe that is just a problem youtube is having lately. Their advice was to just recycle the page once or twice to reload the video and it will play. It is just timing out. This has happened to me about 50 times over the past few weeks. the reload sort of fixes it. This is listed under known problems under youtube's help area. The videos are available just not loading correctly for some reason.

Bill ***EDIT*** I just hit the link to the video in your quote and it played fine so, just a youtube problem***EDIT***

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 28, 2009, 01:50:01 AM

I just had an unusual experience with my jtc. The thing turned on and then ran without the AFTER the resistor path to the base terminal had been removed. see my old diagrams.

I was like wtf, so I removed the other jtc circuit i had sharing the same led but not having any actual electricity flowing through it, and the whole thing f*ckered up, the only common connection was the LED being chared between the two. I'll try and rep tomorrow. I think that having to toroids ..with the led and transistor between the two may have some sort of resonance weirdness to it - the only person I can muse to ask here for advice would be...

IST! because of all of the toroids he's playing with. :)

and @ALL, i think we've all stumbled onto something here - i didn't think twice about this, but if there could be some sort of quad-action potentials between two torroids at the appropriate angles, then currents might flow in circular fashions.

Some things to note were that I had the thing prototyped on a solderless breadboard and i noticed that parallel lanes had picofarad capacitance between them. just though I would make a note on that because the unused jtc on the breadboard were pinned off right next to the one being used but in reverse polarity.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gyulasun on February 28, 2009, 05:04:30 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on February 26, 2009, 11:48:49 PM
I don't even use ferrite. I just coil around a coil. See my previous posts, page... oh to hell with it, picture included.

And no one has yet explained to me why electricity would rather flow through the LED rather than the transistor E-C path. I don't know how this circuit works with regard to this path. I do know, however, that the higher the resistance, the lower the oscillations of the magnetic flux.

# of turns are inaccurate to the image below.

@jadaro2600
In the meantime I have answered it in your Transistor Discussion thread and I noticed you read it already, now some additions to the above:
The transistor is a controlled switch here, the 20 kOhm resistor establishes how much current will be able to flow through the collector-emitter path from the battery via the coil. The higher the resistor at the place of the present 20 kOhm, the higher the C-E resistance path becomes, hence the smaller the coil current : ---> so magnetic flux also gets smaller, your observation is correct.

Re on your removing the resistor path from the base (you must have meant your 20 kOhm resistor in schematics, see your Reply #3294, page 330) you practically removed the DC bias from the base-emitter and you still found the circuit working.

The explanation is that the base-emitter is able to remain switched on from the pulse voltage coming from your 40 turn coil and base current can flow via your 100 nF capacitor. This kind of operation is called Class-C when the transistor base bias current comes completely from the input AC signal (in this case the input signal is the peak value of the induced current in the collector coil and in the coupled coil) and no any other DC bias is provided. This is not a stable operation because at low battery voltages like 1.2 - 1.5V the circuit may not start up at the first switch on like in the case when the small DC bias is present via the 20 kOhm.
So do not be surprised you cannot start your jf without the 20 kOhm, however once you started it with that resistor present, then you may remove it and the jf continues working in most of the cases whenever the induced and transformed voltage to the B-E is able to open (hence control) the transistor.

rgds, Gyula

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: maw2432 on February 28, 2009, 06:18:57 AM

@ Gadgit

It looks great and bright too. Nice picture.
I bet this will make some kids very happy and excited to see. ;D

Happy Birthday

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 28, 2009, 08:37:50 AM

@Gadgetmall

;D ;D ;D HAPPY BIRTHDAY ;D ;D ;D

Many Happy Returns For The Day

A bunch of flickering neons would make a loverly candle replacement
;) on top of a cake ;)

General Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 28, 2009, 09:00:38 AM

@Pirate
Bill, I bought two 1Farad 5.5v super caps last monday.
As you are the most experienced on them (I think you are anyway), and I havent any experience with them, what is the best way to use them?
I have both in seperate plastic bags at the moment, tucked away in the parts draws.
Never having used these things, I'm a bit timered.

It's almost midnight here, the old brain is a bit dopy with lack of sleep, I betta have a rest lol.

Had to reset the mouse trap 3 times today, there breeding faster than I can get em.

Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on February 28, 2009, 09:14:55 AM

Hi guys,
and HAPPY BIRTHDAY AL :)

I was just looking around an online store for some components
because I plan to build the MK1/Gadgetmall/Jeanna hybrid ultra low power JT
as in the schematic from this post: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg159208#msg159208

I have a few questions that some of you will probably be able to answer... if you don't mind. :)

The stores I checked do not have HEP638 Germanium pnp transistors, and most don't really sell
any Germanium transistors at all.
What other types of (Germanium or other) transistors could be used instead?
And does that require the use of different components in the rest of the circuit too?
(I can imagine the potmeters might have to be changed too. for example.)

Second question is about the 20K potmeters. A store I visited had an offer on pots,
but only of a specific slide-slot type, not of the turn-knob type or something else,
only those slide things. Also, only in a very low wattage.
Besides the pots having to be 20K in this schematic, what else should I look for
in the pots? Should they be of a certain minimal or maximal wattage, does it matter
if they're freakishly cheap low wattage low quality pots?

My thanks in advance to anyone who can answer some of these questions.

kind regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 28, 2009, 09:46:00 AM

hello everyone and older al!!! ;D

just thought i would clear up any confusion over what im building currently ...

there is a total of 6 aa batteries in my unit and 2 are dead ones ... that supply the entire unit ... 4 are rechargeables ... they get recharged ;D

4 more are 3.6 v cordless fone batteries... they are also recharged at a FAST RATE OF SPEED .... after running all night ... they are full....

and are not drainging ....they power the 6 mk2 rings...

so i fiddled with it for a bit last night ... but not enough

I CAN SAY I DID POWER A MK2 FROM A RECHARGED BATTERY FROM THIS SYSTEM ....

AND IT SPITS OUT 110VDC.. X4 PLUS THE JT RETURN...

from the aa i recharged ... did not apear to work well from the fone batteries ... it was late tho ...

i play later on and get it running proplery .. ;)

ist!!

after rechargeing all night long my dead supply batteries still have tonnes of juce in them ;D

i call them dead cuz they came from the cameras ... they are used but still have well over 1v in them

agin i was only rechargeing batteries not powereing the out put rings... at the same time ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: mikem_2au on February 28, 2009, 10:06:06 AM

I found an article on how to make a JT, it also had a WARNING "be careful, very addictive".
A year or 2 later, i think it's time to admit that i have an addiction.

been following this topic for a while now, think you are all doing great things, thought i'd say hi

At the moment i only have a few iron powder torroids wich don't perform well, but have been
trying everything to get the most out of them, then
After reading a post from @gyulasun on page 324, wich i'll admit i don't fully understand.
( i have trouble understanding somthing i can't see e.g. the JT, i see the light come on,
i can't see the magnetic field, the transistor switching, the capacitor charging/discharging,
and so on, ) I thought i'd try something different.

I started with 16 turns primary, 4 turns secondry wich gave me 7vdc 12ma and 42ma draw from battery,

I then wound a third winding, one end went to the collector after a diode, and the LED went between
the emitter and the other end of the third winding, after some tuning i ended up with
8 turns primary, 2 turns secondary and 12 turns for the third winding,
results were - 21vdc 27ma and 39 ma draw from the battery.

Happy with this and not having a ferrite torroid to try this on i decided to add another 6 turn winding
to a fugi transformer
the Existing 8 turn winding ended up as the primary, the new six turn the secondry and the
third winding, well i couldn't count them,

this lit up an un-modded cfl, but only just, and with one hand holding some foil with it beeing attached to
the emmiter, but this was enough to make me smile

i'v attached a couple of pictures, the cfl wasn't as bright as it looks in the photo,
also a edited diagram, first time i have done this, i think it's rite.

must get some sleep now.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 28, 2009, 10:13:11 AM

AWSOME !!!!! POST!!!!!! :)

WANNA KIT IT ?!?!?!?! LOL

;) :)

I WANT OPENSOURCE KITS!!!!!! LOL !!

BRING IT ON!!!!

;D

great job !!

anyone else out there hideing .... i know you are there ..... 8)

this is quite addictive lol been at it a while now ;D

ist!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on February 28, 2009, 11:26:29 AM

I got some parts in

I now have the right transistors

I got some N3904s and some N2222s

My black toroids are not here yet but I have a few that I pulled out of a monitor.

I have a Jt with a M3904 running ........now I can start seeing what I can do with it

:)

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dog812 on February 28, 2009, 12:38:07 PM

Is it possible to run
21 RGB LED's that require 3.6V/30ma on a single AA rechargeable.
I make LED Hula hoops for my gf and her friends.. I am trying to make them cheaper for the girls. You can see my process at my site.. http://ledhulahoop.com (http://ledhulahoop.com)

I have been reading and reading but no deffinite parts list to make what i need.
Does it matter what size the ferrite is for my application? how about resistors.. do i need different ones?
How long will the led's stay lit for on a 2450 mah battery..

any help would be awesome and greatly appreciated.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 28, 2009, 01:58:32 PM

Quote from: gyulasun on February 28, 2009, 05:04:30 AM
@jadaro2600
In the meantime I have answered it in your Transistor Discussion thread and I noticed you read it already, now some additions to the above:
The transistor is a controlled switch here, the 20 kOhm resistor establishes how much current will be able to flow through the collector-emitter path from the battery via the coil. The higher the resistor at the place of the present 20 kOhm, the higher the C-E resistance path becomes, hence the smaller the coil current : ---> so magnetic flux also gets smaller, your observation is correct.

Re on your removing the resistor path from the base (you must have meant your 20 kOhm resistor in schematics, see your Reply #3294, page 330) you practically removed the DC bias from the base-emitter and you still found the circuit working.

The explanation is that the base-emitter is able to remain switched on from the pulse voltage coming from your 40 turn coil and base current can flow via your 100 nF capacitor. This kind of operation is called Class-C when the transistor base bias current comes completely from the input AC signal (in this case the input signal is the peak value of the induced current in the collector coil and in the coupled coil) and no any other DC bias is provided. This is not a stable operation because at low battery voltages like 1.2 - 1.5V the circuit may not start up at the first switch on like in the case when the small DC bias is present via the 20 kOhm.
So do not be surprised you cannot start your jf without the 20 kOhm, however once you started it with that resistor present, then you may remove it and the jf continues working in most of the cases whenever the induced and transformed voltage to the B-E is able to open (hence control) the transistor.

rgds, Gyula

My original post contained many error, it was late, what can I say ( type ). Thanks, this clears things up a bit. It appears that the tank circuit keeps working even with the BE path tampered with.

Quote from: dog812 on February 28, 2009, 12:38:07 PM
Is it possible to run
21 RGB LED's that require 3.6V/30ma on a single AA rechargeable.
I make LED Hula hoops for my gf and her friends.. I am trying to make them cheaper for the girls. You can see my process at my site.. http://ledhulahoop.com (http://ledhulahoop.com)

I have been reading and reading but no deffinite parts list to make what i need.
Does it matter what size the ferrite is for my application? how about resistors.. do i need different ones?
How long will the led's stay lit for on a 2450 mah battery..

any help would be awesome and greatly appreciated.

Nothing is impossible - but you may have trouble maintaining duration on your battery. You will have to divide your battery milliamp hours by the measure of milliamp usage to get how many hours your lights will stay on. I think.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 28, 2009, 02:03:05 PM

Quote from: dog812 on February 28, 2009, 12:38:07 PM
Is it possible to run
21 RGB LED's that require 3.6V/30ma on a single AA rechargeable.
I make LED Hula hoops for my gf and her friends.. I am trying to make them cheaper for the girls. You can see my process at my site.. http://ledhulahoop.com (http://ledhulahoop.com)

I have been reading and reading but no deffinite parts list to make what i need.
Does it matter what size the ferrite is for my application? how about resistors.. do i need different ones?
How long will the led's stay lit for on a 2450 mah battery..

any help would be awesome and greatly appreciated.

Welcome to Pirates Thread !! You New Guys Dive right in and Yes Its Addictive !! AS for your question dog812 yes its here in the forum you can run 20 rgb leds from a 1.5 volt battery and will last about a week full throttle .. search for post By jeanna and Gadgetmall here . and check out the 11 turn primary . one turn secondary . ithink she was lighting 40 whites bright .all our circuits are 1 volt I have some nice circuits you might look at if you want to run them longer . Take care

@All
Thanks for the Birthday Wishes . and Beatings :) all you guys are really cool in your own way . Forgive Me for Flying off the Handle at times .(full mooon) I enjoy your company and don't want to wear My Welcome out . If i do let Let me know and pm to get the heck out . I Know Pirate can lock this thread and i dont want to be a cause to ruin such a nice thread . This is the Coolest thread of them all . One reason is most o fthe stuff to build these things are free and or cheap and everyone can build them and make them better . My 7 year old can make them now . sooo . keep up the great work and lets make these Gadgets Shine ,

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 28, 2009, 02:12:03 PM

Quote from: mikem_2au on February 28, 2009, 10:06:06 AM
I found an article on how to make a JT, it also had a WARNING "be careful, very addictive".
A year or 2 later, i think it's time to admit that i have an addiction.

been following this topic for a while now, think you are all doing great things, thought i'd say hi

At the moment i only have a few iron powder torroids wich don't perform well, but have been
trying everything to get the most out of them, then
After reading a post from @gyulasun on page 324, wich i'll admit i don't fully understand.
( i have trouble understanding somthing i can't see e.g. the JT, i see the light come on,
i can't see the magnetic field, the transistor switching, the capacitor charging/discharging,
and so on, ) I thought i'd try something different.

I started with 16 turns primary, 4 turns secondry wich gave me 7vdc 12ma and 42ma draw from battery,

I then wound a third winding, one end went to the collector after a diode, and the LED went between
the emitter and the other end of the third winding, after some tuning i ended up with
8 turns primary, 2 turns secondary and 12 turns for the third winding,
results were - 21vdc 27ma and 39 ma draw from the battery.

Happy with this and not having a ferrite torroid to try this on i decided to add another 6 turn winding
to a fugi transformer
the Existing 8 turn winding ended up as the primary, the new six turn the secondry and the
third winding, well i couldn't count them,

this lit up an un-modded cfl, but only just, and with one hand holding some foil with it beeing attached to
the emmiter, but this was enough to make me smile

i'v attached a couple of pictures, the cfl wasn't as bright as it looks in the photo,
also a edited diagram, first time i have done this, i think it's rite.

must get some sleep now.

Just a Suggestion . you should get more light is you remove the cap and diode .your filtering the half wave and might loose some of the kick . .in that camera transformer it would be nice if you could show the transformer so i can see how you wound over it .. . Slayer007 has bunches of great circuits and i recommend them Highly ! .
Best regards and I offer a Welcome on behalf of Pirate thread .

Al
AKA Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 28, 2009, 02:38:57 PM

@ mikem and Dog:

Welcome to our topic here. Great job on the cfl lighting there mikem! Yes, these circuits are addicting for sure.

@ Dog:

I am glad you made it to our topic here. Gadgetmall is correct about your leds and the jt circuits here. You mentioned to me on another topic that you might be interested in some kind of kit to do what you would like to do? Several of the folks here can help you with that or, you can use some of the circuits posted here, some many pages back, to build your own device for your application. I agree with Gadgetmall's assessment of running them for about a week on a single AA battery, I think this is completely possible.

If you can't find what you need, I am sure you could pm me, or Gadgetmall, or Jeanna, or IST, or Mk1 and they could help you to find what you are looking for. Some advice for you in the meantime......do NOT toss out any "dead" AA batteries that you may have. Save them all. They are not really dead and will provide you with many, many hours of light with these circuits. You can even tel your friends to save their "dead" AA's in a baggie for you. Then the girls will have "free energy" with their hoops. Your project is a good one.

@ General Jim:

Super caps are cool and you will love them. The main caution I have found is to never overload them voltage wise as they can and will explode. So, 5.5 v cap should not be hooked up in such a way that 30 or 40 volts goes into it. I have been using all of mine just like a battery.

To begin with, just take 3 AA batteries in series and hook them up to 1 supercap for a few minutes. This will load it up with 4.5 volts. Then, hook that up to one of your jt circuits and it will run it for a while. You should be able to light a single led just from the super cap for probably 20-30 minutes. On your breadboard, you can hook both caps in parallel and juice them up with 4.5 volts and then run your circuit 2 times as long. This is the main thing I have been doing with them. I have learned that they do not take as long to charge up as I was originally told. I have a video where I just touch the battery to the cap circuit for less than one second, and it lights 3 high power leds for a while. let me know if I can e-mail you the video. It is on youtube but I think you don't get those if I read right. It is a large file and may be to large for e-mail. Can you access metacafe? A lot of my videos are there also. Have fun with those, you will love them.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 28, 2009, 03:46:14 PM

@all .. for those of you that are looking for Germanium transistors there is a good supply on ebay . I asked the guy i bought mine from and am awaiting a response . some germanium transistors offer high dc amplification at a fraction of a regular silicon transistor base power up voltage ie 2n3904 etc.. they even have Vintage gold 2n2222 transistor i see and their gain exceeds any made today . a good germanium transistor will power up as little as 0.15 volts . most are 0.20 volts . a silicon transistor 0.50 volts . or half a volt .
heres mine
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&item=130279412519
he gave me 50 extra ones too . ask him if he has more

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on February 28, 2009, 03:54:18 PM

Built my first 555 timer led driver. It runs with a single 1.5v or 2. It's brighter with 2 cells. I got the circuit from Bill Marsden at this link..
http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showpost.php?p=117641&postcount=6 (http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showpost.php?p=117641&postcount=6)

Many thanks to him..

Here are some pictures running on 2 AAs. Voltage is dropping about 0.025v every 10 minutes drawing ~50ma. LEDs are really, really bright. Blinding even at an off angle looking at them. Not sure what Henry the coil is. Does anyone know how to calculate that? Looks like the coil is about a 40-50 turn, fine wire on a bobbin ferrite core about a third of an inch tall. I followed the attached circuit almost exactly except the coil and the cap. I think my cap is ~735pf according to my DMM. I'm driving my 4.5v AAA push light circuit with it. I may package this back up into the push light and run it off 2 AAAs instead of 3. I'm going to buy some more from Wallmart. My plan is to come up with a few comparable driving cicuits with 555s ands JTs and compare to the original and see how much better my modifications are. My DMM sampling in the meter view software for the first graph was 1 sample per second and the second one sample per 10 seconds.

In the second sampling, you can see the voltage of the 2 AAs drop from 3.100v to 3.050v over about 20 minutes time.

Transistor is oscillating at a frequency of 93khz, the pulse width is 6.8 micro seconds and the pulse duty is 63.2%

My other plan is to combine a classic JT circuit with this one see what the difference is.

Enjoy :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 28, 2009, 04:20:09 PM

hello all

@ dog i will build you what you need sorry not to reply via pm yet ...

if you like to do it yourself is a great idea :)

GUYS ;D ;D ;D WELL I WAS DOING YES ANOTHER DEMO TODAY ....... BUT NOT INVESTORS ;)

LETS SAY ... IT IS A LIKED THING :)

ok but the kool part is this..... im gonna do a video of it lol

EVER CHARGE A BIG CAP FROM A DEAD AA BATTERY .... AND A MK2 COIL ... LOL !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

I DID TODAY

;D

WARNING BE CARFUL.......

im sure many remember my mot unit ...... lol

TIME TO DO IT WITH A DEAD AA.....

IST!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dog812 on February 28, 2009, 05:24:10 PM

Hey everyone , thanks for the reply..
I just dont know enough about these to make my own design that will work.. and since i am selling these to people I want to make sure they are going to work for reliably for a long time. over and over...
.. i would be willing to buy a design from someone even.. and then make it on my own..

If you are interested please email me to discuss..
dog812 @ gmail.com

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 28, 2009, 05:35:09 PM

OK

i have a design for you i have built tiny ones ...

they work a long time ......

they can lite as many leds as you like ...

ist

powed by a watch battery ... ;)

how many do you want ...

the finished ring mesures 3/8"

i can tune to whatever you want as an output.... as in powering leds 10 20 50 100 dont matter to me .....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 28, 2009, 05:36:28 PM

@ist

Take one of the mk2 toroid and make a positive feed back system , mine charged cap even faster with that system , to do so you take one coil of each side and connect them in series , test to make sure to get the best output , do the same with the second set of coils , then rectified on the negative you keep as negative for cap and the positive side of bridge you send to the not rectified coil , check again for the right phase then take the output of the coil (made for the second set of coil) And that will be the plus side to the cap. it is worth the try !

So you tried feeding the 6 mk2 with the 2 of 3.6v pack , good that was the idea for the divider in the first place that is how it was design , but the question is can you keep those in working range with the coils feedback?

Ist , even if i don't really like money promises , i am not against your kits idea , i have many , but we need a good supply of good toroid and that is the major issue i have , since they all are different we need to make sure they work all the same . Don't you think ? if we need to redesign every new shipment ? not really good idea.

.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 28, 2009, 05:45:46 PM

mk1 i charged my presure washer motor cap from your coil to 102vdc ... with ease ... from 1 feed ....

yes it is lould when you let it out ;D 8)

sure not as fast as i would like but instantlly after discharge i have 50 vdc back in the cap .... or close ...

so imagine this same cap filled by 30 feeds...... ;)

ist!!

heres an idea mk1

lol RAMMA ;)

i can spend a buck a toroide to get tiny ones all the same and have gadget bulbs for the same buck also have some nice caps diodes and transistors ...

1 buck ;)

;D ;D

@MK1 can i kindly advise you to get 1 buck go to ramma buy what you need get the ring out of it tune it .... i will do the same ... ;)

they are already sold .... ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 28, 2009, 05:57:27 PM

@all

Fun facts . A motor rotor can be made of aluminium ? Look at microwave motor?

@ist

Not sure about the ramma they don't have all the same stuff , i did get those part in the 9w cfl from ramma is that it?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 28, 2009, 06:00:58 PM

at ramma for this that i speek of they do ..... :P

lol

1 buck and some time ..... lol

wanna

RACE !?!?!?!?!?! LOL

IST!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 28, 2009, 06:06:24 PM

Quote from: dog812 on February 28, 2009, 05:24:10 PM
Hey everyone , thanks for the reply..
I just dont know enough about these to make my own design that will work.. and since i am selling these to people I want to make sure they are going to work for reliably for a long time. over and over...
.. i would be willing to buy a design from someone even.. and then make it on my own..

If you are interested please email me to discuss..
dog812 @ gmail.com

dog one very important thing i for got to mention is the Jt will have to be ran to a diode cap because Jt's Don't like rainbow Leds . they need pure dc and will just light all three guns on a normal jt . I
play with them also so i can tell you for sure that they work you just need to filter the Jt output .

gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 28, 2009, 06:12:14 PM

mk1 here is a pic ....

toroide may already be tuned.... 8)

ist!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 28, 2009, 06:21:41 PM

@ist

That's the sunbeam 9w cfl circuit?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gyulasun on February 28, 2009, 06:24:58 PM

Quote from: mikem_2au on February 28, 2009, 10:06:06 AM
....snip
After reading a post from @gyulasun on page 324, wich i'll admit i don't fully understand.
( i have trouble understanding something i can't see e.g. the JT, i see the light come on,
i can't see the magnetic field, the transistor switching, the capacitor charging/discharging,
and so on, ) I thought i'd try something different.

I started with 16 turns primary, 4 turns secondry wich gave me 7vdc 12ma and 42ma draw from battery,

I then wound a third winding, one end went to the collector after a diode, and the LED went between
the emitter and the other end of the third winding, after some tuning i ended up with
8 turns primary, 2 turns secondary and 12 turns for the third winding,
results were - 21vdc 27ma and 39 ma draw from the battery.
....snip

@mikem_2au

Hi,

I can assure you I cannot see magnetic field either ::) :) and if you wish something to explain further I will if I can.

I do not know if others here also noticed but I like your numbers on the DC voltages and currents because they reflect higher than one output-input ratio... Have you double checked them?

Assuming 1.5V battery voltage @ 42mA current draw, your input power is 1.5 x 42=63mW and your output power is 7V x 12mA=84mW. You seem to have a COP (coefficience of performance) of 84/63=1.33 !!

Your other setup's input power (with the third winding) is 1.5V x 39mA=58.5mW and the output here is 21V x 27mA=567mW, the COP is 567/58.5=9.69 (mW !) EDIT: sorry for the mW, COP has no measurement unit, it is a ratio.

Congratulations for these results and I hope your DMM does not let you in...

Maybe you could share some tricks how to achieve these excellent results.

Regards, Gyula

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on February 28, 2009, 06:41:17 PM

I hooked a 3v airhogs biplane motor in series with my 40-50 turn bobbin coil. Brightness stayed the same and current draw went down to ~20ma and the motor is spinning now too. That's the same amout of light for 30ma less than the previous circuit. I turn the leds off and let the timer circuit run alone and the motor stops and current draw goes down to ~8ma. If I stop the motor with my fingers with the leds on, the leds brighten by 200% and the motor has some torque to it and ma draw goes up to 40ma. That's 2x the light for 10ma less than the previous circuit.

Voltage went from 3.002v to 2.977 in dropping 0.025v in 60 minutes.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 28, 2009, 06:47:17 PM

@gyulasun

Hi and welcome!

The idea is magnets , like a stator in a motor doesn't move but creates illusion of movement, it still works , but classic theory on how it works are naive but the real stuff is even harder to believe , so i wont go fully there, but lets say it a simple step up transformer , on a saturable core that is magic because has the core saturates the coil inductance also changes , the impedance is reduce in a big way . the basic is creating pulse in a coil , in a normal strait core both ends of the straight core are creating magnetic field basic electromagnet there , but when you do in a toroid that magnetic flux stay in the core , so the fields feed each other, Now the coil there is usually the same current trough all the coils , but in classic theory the voltage output is higher but amps lower then the input , but they only count up to 2 coils , but the law is the same with 3 4 5 6 9 10 coils , same current in all coil ? that is if you think outside of the box. Now how to get a good design that is the question?

Also the magnetic effect on the toroid like the electromagnet , the iron in there is not a magnet , but put it under electrical stress and the metal will try to adjust generating first the magnetic effect but also excess energy , that is where the fun is . The excess energy is only transmited when the coil is shut down .
i wonder is regular magnets work in space?

Mark

I hope this helps !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 28, 2009, 06:51:54 PM

SO the other day I got the circuit to run as usual, but it was brighter - I used a green LED. I removed the resistor and the circuit continued to run without there being a path from positive to the beginning of the capacitor. In other words, the circuit may have looked like this - and I have been unable to replicate the accident.

I was wondering if anyone had any ideas?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jonnydavro on February 28, 2009, 06:52:45 PM

Hi. Here is another avenue for exploration.Today i made a USB Joule thief Bedini motor which charges a 12v battery from the usb port on my laptop.I can think off plenty off other things that could be run in this fashion.Here is what i have up to now.Here is a video off it running.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXWAQ3zTZNw
Regards Jonnydavro.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 28, 2009, 06:58:19 PM

jonny:

Great video man, I left you a comment and 5 stars. What a great idea!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jonnydavro on February 28, 2009, 07:11:08 PM

Thanks Bill,I am quite excited about the possibilities that using the USB port might offer.im going to try a gadget's modified fuji and fluorescent tube next.I am still using the first joule thief i ever made,yet it still charges the cap great.If some off you guys did this with some off the high power jt's god knows what you could power.I really will have to get round to trying marks mk1.
Regards Jonnydavro

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 28, 2009, 07:15:09 PM

lol

do magnets work in space......

LOL

ist

im gonna start that big coil .... putting the 6pac on hold lol ;D

6" iron pipe core.....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 28, 2009, 07:19:45 PM

Quote from: jonnydavro on February 28, 2009, 06:52:45 PM
Hi. Here is another avenue for exploration.Today i made a USB Joule thief Bedini motor which charges a 12v battery from the usb port on my laptop.I can think off plenty off other things that could be run in this fashion.Here is what i have up to now.Here is a video off it running.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXWAQ3zTZNw
Regards Jonnydavro.

design a Jonny kit ... ;D

i will list them

ps my friend has a laser to print the boards.... by the sheet!!! ;)

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 28, 2009, 07:27:24 PM

@ist

Thank , for your involvement in the mk2 project, even if its on hold you really did great with it and poster all the picture , witch i can't do myself for now , and made ideas burst! For all of us hopefully !

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 28, 2009, 07:28:40 PM

Everybody has seen these stick up Led Lights that run off three aaa batterys . So Inefficient ! Here we have a Stickit Jt running off a dead aaa duracell for 6 hours so far and its voltage is .91 volts and its current draw is 5 ma . It lights brighter than the three aaa version . Its a very small ferrite Bead with 11 turns bifilar on a 2n3904 tuned with an adjustable r/c tank stuffed in one of the aaa slots .. I rewired the switch to turn the battery on the jt .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 28, 2009, 07:37:54 PM

@gadget

Those 3 led holder got i 2 yesterday at ramma.

@ist there you got gadget did it , now a i believe you can have more then 3 led with that already and other coil can be added , and jeanna show how powerfull one turn can be!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 28, 2009, 07:40:59 PM

i could give you a list of jt kits i would like designed lol

hho jt
jt charger
jt cfl
jt cap charger kits
jt pulse motor kits ..
jt cascade amps
jt solor modules

i could dream up ideas for weeks lol

mk1

how bout a mk somthing else on an iron pipe ring ?!?!?!?!

im gonna try the jt on it first and see

if it is what I EXPECT IT TO BE LOL

damm there be this serries kits too but ... more advanced kits starting at 500 bucks.... might come with an INVERTOR AS WELL ;) ;) ;D

then wate till i finally hook up with the BATCAP maker lol

00oo yes .... and so it GOES.....

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 28, 2009, 07:43:19 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 28, 2009, 07:37:54 PM
@gadget

Those 3 led holder got i 2 yesterday at ramma.

Yea i guess the dollarramma is like our dollar general . same stuff .. I got a couple of those little plant spotlights looks like a 5 watt led that has a photo cell on it for a buck . Im converting it now .Its a Big waste on aaa cell arnt they . We will Fix em !

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 28, 2009, 07:56:03 PM

@ Gadget:

Another great modification! How much were those 3 led lights? I have many dollar stores here in town and will look for some. This is like the flashlights that you and IST have modded. As I said to you before, I can not understand why the designers of this stuff use such inefficient circuits when building them? OK, so maybe cost is a factor on the cheap stuff but, on the high end flashlights that cost mega bucks....they still use the same inefficient circuits and many batteries.

Great work!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 28, 2009, 07:58:25 PM

@pirate

Led at 33.cent?

And how many battery comp finance dollars store supplier comp to create new need for battery?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 28, 2009, 08:12:17 PM

;D ;D ;D

im done the micro mk2 tiny toroide i can tune it better

:P

i have out put 15vdc x2 feeds ....

;)

ill post a pic in a bit i may tune it better yet!!

took 30 seconds to wind it

btw i know all about 1 turn secondaries..... remember the cosmic rose ;) 22 1 turn secondaries....... ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 28, 2009, 08:13:47 PM

MK1:

Yes, see, I have always wondered who really owns most of the flashlight companies.........I would not be shocked (no pun intended) if it were eveready, duracell, etc. So, what you say makes perfect sense to me. If we keep going like we are, boy, are they going to be pissed.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 28, 2009, 08:35:55 PM

@at all new B ies,
Welcome to Pirates Joule Thief, the marvelous place to be, full of surprises and breakthroughs.

Can we drive a boat with this JT, I think we can. ;D

@Bill,
If you could email that item so I could look at it, that would be great.

Yes, inefficient circuits are designed this way to make people buy more batteries, or, just mabe the designers think the JT is just a toy and ignore it. hmmmmm.

@Koen1,
Germanium transisters I think are the way to go, if one turns on below the usual .6volt silicon ones, then it stands to reason we can get better usage out of it. Theres also something about the humble LED, theres a lot more this device can do that hasnt been discovered as yet. Can it be used as a transister itself? just a throw away line, could be wrong.

The variable resistor (these days) is made for very low currents, although I have seen wire wound ones 40-50 years back, then the car maked Holden (no doubt there are others) had a heavy duty wire wound resistor, mounted in the dash to dim the dash light bulbs.

@ist
I think you mean by charging your 4 batts by 2 batts via the modified 3 pole toy motor?
This is one of the things I want to do.

@mikem_2au
Addictive YES IT SURE IS ;)
I havent seen anyone before use a common earth before, someone mentioned to remove the diode, well as an experiment, add annother diode, back to front to the orig one, then the output will now be a usual (+) with a (0) volt and a (-) negative volt unit.

This hasent been done here before, there are heeps of IC circuits that need this type of voltage driving them. ;D

@Hazens1
running a 555 off 1.5v is a cool idea, but if Mike (above note) could get a result from a +v 0 -v setup that might make the 555 and other JT circuits more efficient.

jim (the generals retired) :o

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 28, 2009, 08:38:56 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 28, 2009, 07:56:03 PM
@ Gadget:

Another great modification! How much were those 3 led lights? I have many dollar stores here in town and will look for some. This is like the flashlights that you and IST have modded. As I said to you before, I can not understand why the designers of this stuff use such inefficient circuits when building them? OK, so maybe cost is a factor on the cheap stuff but, on the high end flashlights that cost mega bucks....they still use the same inefficient circuits and many batteries.

Great work!

Bill

1 buck . total price for modification . nada . all the parts are on other junk. battery is one that i have already recharged at least 20 times in the last several months doing longitivity test on our projects ..

I think i saw big lots had a 4 pack with batteries for about 6 bucks !! that 12 aaa's and 12 hi bright leds
Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 28, 2009, 09:12:01 PM

@ Gadgetmall:

Al, thanks for the info. We have a Biglots too so I will check there first. Hey, if they want to supply all of us with these inexpensive parts not knowing what else they can be used for, so be it, ha ha.

@ Jim:

What do you mean the General has retired? Don't you know that even as we speak, the mice army is busy making more soldiers? I believe they will lay low for a bit and build up their troop strength and then mount a massive frontal attack.....be ready. Hey, you don't think they are intercepting your battle plans off of the computer do you? This might explain how they manage to be one step ahead of your attack plans. Ha ha. Don't give up the fight!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 28, 2009, 10:10:17 PM

i made my video for you all ;D

dead aa chargeing a cap useing 1 feed from mk2 coil

ist!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dpXXvgYrYU

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 28, 2009, 10:43:15 PM

@ist

I made one with the toroid from the cfl , 10 mm by 4mm , got 4x20 volts , should light easy 100 leds in parallel bright. i will try to go for neon on it and button cell , its a tiny one , nano jt lol. Btw it even works with out resistor , little toroid can work at real high freq.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: weri812 on February 28, 2009, 10:50:57 PM

hello fellow workers ;D

is good video

mk1 good work 2ooooooooooooooooo

my jt just died 384 hours. now to build an mk2

see you all later

God Bless
wer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 28, 2009, 11:02:57 PM

This tread is really addictive , and why is that ?

The answer is in you , keep it , good work every one!

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 28, 2009, 11:29:26 PM

SO the JTC is acting as a blocking oscillator. In what ways are there available other methods of winding the transformer circuit? ( other than by switching hands, or while trying to drive, etc. )

I've already explored the ferriteless coil around coil; it seems to work except in small applications.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 28, 2009, 11:35:15 PM

@jadaro2600

Tell me did you check your copper toroid , it is made of mag wire isn't it ?

If yes tell me dose your core put out voltage?

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 28, 2009, 11:40:10 PM

i used bell wire on the micro mk2

i will build another ... and see if i cant get my voltage a wee bit higher maybe drop a few more pick up coils ...

ist

i will use mag wire .... this time

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 28, 2009, 11:41:56 PM

@ gyulasun

Quote from: gyulasun on February 28, 2009, 06:24:58 PM
Assuming 1.5V battery voltage @ 42mA current draw, your input power is 1.5 x 42=63mW and your output power is 7V x 12mA=84mW. You seem to have a COP (coefficience of performance) of 84/63=1.33 !!

Your other setup's input power (with the third winding) is 1.5V x 39mA=58.5mW and the output here is 21V x 27mA=567mW, the COP is 567/58.5=9.69mW !!!!

I assume that mikem_2au was reporting the open circuit voltage from measurements something like the following circit. But the circuit still is very impressive. It seems to be putting two coils in series to get a higher output voltage. I also hope mikem_2au will provide more information about this and his Fuji board mods. To light an unmodified CFL is very impressive.

BTW, I think your explanations were very good. I hope someone will learn from them.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 28, 2009, 11:49:25 PM

@ jadaro2600

Quote from: jadaro2600 on February 28, 2009, 06:51:54 PM
I was wondering if anyone had any ideas?

I think maybe you just did not keep the switch closed long enough. It will take a while for the capacitor to charge up. Try keeping the switch closed for about 5 minutes and see if the circuit will work when it is opened.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on February 28, 2009, 11:53:59 PM

@xee2
to Light a unmodified Cfl . is very hard to do . I have tried it and its like a Short Circuit on My Fugi mod . . I am Not using a diode or cap so the Cfl is getting pulsed . I have tried an unmodified fugi on a unmodified cfl and get a big spark and a flash of light but thats it .
I also want to know how the extra winding is on there . i don't see any room to squeeze wire threw there . Is it on the Outside of the laminations ? Also the Cfl had a Bridge on it and it will of course convert the ac to dc but how is it running off dc in the first place ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 28, 2009, 11:56:06 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 28, 2009, 11:35:15 PM
@jadaro2600

Tell me did you check your copper toroid , it is made of mag wire isn't it ?

If yes tell me dose your core put out voltage?

Mark

The core is torroid shaped, 30 gage wire on the inside and 26 gage wire on the outside. Current paths flow opposite one another - otherwise the device doesn't work properly. So, my particular design is direction dependent.

It's hard to measure the voltage, I'll try some thing in a minute and post my results - the core is different now, so I'll also post a new image of the setup. *edited to add picture.

Where to measure voltage? Also, the resistance in this image is 30k,, and the frequency across the base collector path is 1.6khz

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 01, 2009, 12:23:51 AM

just thought i would mention i just got my voltage to 28vdc from micro mk2 x 1 coil ... out put .... could easly dubble it up ...

it seams each turn adds 2v so maybe i have too many jt windings....

ist

nice coil

jadaro2600

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 01, 2009, 12:27:35 AM

@jadaro2600

I mean the 30 gauge core since its a coil it self could generate voltage , but i see you did not keep the ends out.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 01, 2009, 12:30:06 AM

I consider it purely mathematical - the math, which I know nothing about, would simply be based on the currents flowing here or there and not have to take into consideration the ferrite core or it's material properties, etc.

Having said that, i though that I would mention that I made two other toroids in the same way as the one above but smaller and they proved less powerful.

Also, there is, by length, less wire in the outer winding ( current carrying ) than in the inner winding ( voltage collecting ). Approximately 14 inches and 9 inches respectively.

@mk, i'm not sure what you mean - i've not tried to get it back into resonant mode - it involved a second jtc strung off of the other side of the 4 pin led.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slapper on March 01, 2009, 12:44:29 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 01, 2009, 12:30:06 AM
Also, there is, by length, less wire in the outer winding ( current carrying ) than in the inner winding ( voltage collecting ). Approximately 14 inches and 9 inches respectively.

But your mass between the two are awfully close.

Take care.

nap

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 01, 2009, 12:46:18 AM

@jadaro2600

I see you have 2 jt coils of 26 gauge and a toroid made of copper 30 right? So i see 3 coils here 2 jt and one toroid. You get the picture now?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 01, 2009, 01:05:36 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 01, 2009, 12:46:18 AM
@jadaro2600

I see you have 2 jt coils of 26 gauge and a toroid made of copper 30 right? So i see 3 coils here 2 jt and one toroid. You get the picture now?

lol

will it lite a neon close by and charge materails near by !?!?!

or for some reason does it stay contained ...

my experience copper on copper 90 deg has been not normal ;D

at 1 point i had electrofied standing waves........ at some distance from the coil.....

hummm

wonder how many of my neibours electronics i blew that day in my hood ;) lol

i bet there are still wondering how in the hell it is brand new and defective ?!?!?!?!

lol lol

i can hear there wifes now ...... it just worked fine a min ago ..... lol what did you do SOAPS ARE ON IN 5 MIN LOL

tha poor dude ...... lol

ist!

ooopieeee lol

needless to say i did no more test after seing this over 1 year ago .... not like that any way ... i would not have knowen at all but my father was over that day .... and he walked through it and got a good zap ....

this is the only conclusion i can draw THIS IS BASED UPON AUDIO HENGE TESTS I DID LONG AGO I HAVE DONE THIS WITH AUDIO AS WELL AND MOVER LEAVES ON MY FLOWER PLANT ... THEY TWITCHED WHEN I ADJUSTED THE FREQ....

I COULD PLAY THAT FOR HOURS BACK AND FORTH ... MAKEING THE PLANT TWITCH...

;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 01, 2009, 01:19:41 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 01, 2009, 12:46:18 AM
@jadaro2600

I see you have 2 jt coils of 26 gauge and a toroid made of copper 30 right? So i see 3 coils here 2 jt and one toroid. You get the picture now?

@mk, No, the inner toroid IS a coil used in the circuit, and the one wrapped around it is used to collect voltage; there are only two coils - both are being used.

Check out my Images below, I'll post a schematic of them in a bit - or when DIA decides to cooperate. The path has been altered in the first one, I use a resistor to turn on the circuit, then remove it after a LED is being lit in its place.. and on the second one, I bridged the { ( bias ) the transistor across the coil from the } capacitor to the positive terminal of the green LED. ....i tried biasing with and LED but it didn't work.

@all, It looks like I got the circuit to work with that positive resistance path and without a switch. ;) :)

This circuit works with a capacitor ranging from 450 pF to 15 uF or more. I also got it to strobe for me when I added a tank circuit ( resistor - capacitor ) inline in the positive path. OR by using a capacitor in place of the resistor bridge in the second image while putting a resistor between positive and the base of the preexisting capacitor ( which need to be a large capacitance for this to work ).

*this post was edited for scattered brainedness

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 01, 2009, 01:27:33 AM

@ jadaro2600

Coils are normally put at 90 degrees to each other to minimize the coupling between them. Theoretically there should not be any coupling between wires at 90 degrees to each other if everything is ideal. But, in the real world nothing is ideal and so there is actually a small amount of coupling. I suspect it is the parts of the coils that are not at 90 degrees to each other that are actually doing the coupling. But if not, then it would seem that you have done the impossible - congratulations.

EDIT: The components of the green turns that are parallel to the copper colored wires make one turn that is parallel to the copper colored wires. Thus you have a 1:N transformer. But, the one turn part of the green coil has its own inductance due to the parts of the coil that are not parallel to the copper colored wires. This makes something equivalent to a 1:N transformer with an inductor in series with the 1 turn coil. However, it is more complicated because the inductor is not on ether end of the 1 turn coil, but is in the same place as the 1 turn coil. Thus the voltage that builds up across the inductor part of the green coil when the magnetic field collapses is also across the 1 turn coil. A very complicated situation. This should give you much higher voltage multiplication than would be possible with just two parallel air core coils.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 01, 2009, 02:33:55 AM

Quote from: xee2 on March 01, 2009, 01:27:33 AM
@ jadaro2600

Coils are normally put at 90 degrees to each other to minimize the coupling between them. Theoretically there should not be any coupling between wires at 90 degrees to each other if everything is ideal. But, in the real world nothing is ideal and so there is actually a small amount of coupling. I suspect it is the parts of the coils that are not at 90 degrees to each other that are actually doing the coupling. But if not, then it would seem that you have done the impossible - congratulations.

I think its the fact that the currents are flowing in opposite directions that make this work. I may release a video of what I've done and implement all three circuits in one go, but don't expect me to narrate - I'm shy, :P I don't know why the strobe setup or setup 2 works except for the fact that it's already flowing back onto itself ..feedback, just like it's supposed to be.

the strobe setup works two ways, with it as shown or with the 400 pF capacitor bridging to the collector or from where it is bridging to the base. OR with the capacitor bridging the collector AND the base. The only difference is the speed of the strobe.

Anyway, these are the circuit diagrams for the three setups that I've mentioned recently.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 01, 2009, 02:56:31 AM

@ Jadaro2600:

Good work. Thanks for posting the circuit diagrams. Keep it up.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 01, 2009, 04:22:32 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on March 01, 2009, 02:56:31 AM
@ Jadaro2600:

Good work. Thanks for posting the circuit diagrams. Keep it up.

Bill

np,

Here's something interesting - two pictures to end the evening.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 01, 2009, 04:33:18 AM

@all

I removed the resistor from the jt and replaced it with a diode , it works , with 2n34a 1n4148 and also a led . Interesting i got about 13 to 15 volts per coils and up to 22 volts with a resistor , no amps reading bad fuse, one coil lights all my 9 led no problem , From a button cell , and the nano mk2 , the toroid is the same size as the button cell.

Mark

@ Jadaro2600

Real interesting keep it up!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gyulasun on March 01, 2009, 06:58:39 AM

Quote from: xee2 on February 28, 2009, 11:41:56 PM
@ gyulasun

I assume that mikem_2au was reporting the open circuit voltage from measurements something like the following circit. But the circuit still is very impressive. It seems to be putting two coils in series to get a higher output voltage. I also hope mikem_2au will provide more information about this and his Fuji board mods. To light an unmodified CFL is very impressive.

BTW, I think your explanations were very good. I hope someone will learn from them.

Hi xee2,

Thanks for the kind words.

I would like to correct my mistake on giving the COP a mW designation, it was late last night, lol. So the second COP value when the input is 1.5V x 39mA=58.5mW and the output (with the third wire) here is 21V x 27mA=567mW, the COP is 567/58.5=9.69 (and NOT 9.69mW as wrote it last night). A very high COP indeed, by the way!

rgds, Gyula

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on March 01, 2009, 07:34:46 AM

@Bill
The mice neva went 2 skool liyke i doo, day kant wreed lyke i kan, them dumm mouses. lol
I just gota get more mouse traps, an mouse ammo, then they turn into flying mouses as they pass through the open window, an the birdies get a feed.

Now I wonder if I can hire a pussy cat he he.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: mikem_2au on March 01, 2009, 09:20:32 AM

@gyulasun
Thankyou, i have double checked the results, i had to,
for my own Peace of Mind. I am a little fuzzy on what is Happening
with the third winding, if you have the time and are able to explain
this to me more, it would be greatly appreciated.

The equations you have done in your reply will be very helpful, thankyou.

I also hope to show how i got these results tomorrow, just got to
get it from my head to the screen.

@gadgetmall
the extra winding was threaded through, i'm not sure of
the guage but it was about half the thickness of the winding already
on there. the toroid version was putting out DC but the fugi transformer
was putting out more AC than DC, I'm not sure why but if you or someone know's,
I'll gladly listen.
I have tried to replicate your fugi mod but without success, all i got
out was the 1.5v i put in, not giving up though, i was lucky enough to
grab some fugi's marked down to $1.80 au, must of been almost out of date.

@xee2
you are correct, that is how the measurements were taken.

have only browsed over the last few pages, have to sit down and catch up tomorrow.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: mikem_2au on March 01, 2009, 09:30:10 AM

@xee2

with the toroid version the measurements when taken were without the 10uf capacitor across
the diode and emiter, adding the capacitor lowered the voltage and increased the current.

mike..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on March 01, 2009, 09:53:39 AM

Quote from: mikem_2au on March 01, 2009, 09:20:32 AM
@gyulasun
Thankyou, i have double checked the results, i had to,
for my own Peace of Mind. I am a little fuzzy on what is Happening
with the third winding, if you have the time and are able to explain
this to me more, it would be greatly appreciated.

The equations you have done in your reply will be very helpful, thankyou.

I also hope to show how i got these results tomorrow, just got to
get it from my head to the screen.

@gadgetmall
the extra winding was threaded through, i'm not sure of
the guage but it was about half the thickness of the winding already
on there. the toroid version was putting out DC but the fugi transformer
was putting out more AC than DC, I'm not sure why but if you or someone know's,
I'll gladly listen.
I have tried to replicate your fugi mod but without success, all i got
out was the 1.5v i put in, not giving up though, i was lucky enough to
grab some fugi's marked down to $1.80 au, must of been almost out of date.

@xee2
you are correct, that is how the measurements were taken.

have only browsed over the last few pages, have to sit down and catch up tomorrow.

Hi Thank you for the reply .good work on your Mod and winding that extra coil . its interesting that you said the Fugi mod is putting out what is putting in . thats two people that said that . there must be an error however its not mine at least on the mod part . the pictorial from goat works on mine . . You can get results If you simply change out the 220 resistor next to the transistor with a 5k to 20 k pot and short the diode .hook up a modded cfl to the Hv cap output with the cap removed . Stop there and you should have a gutted Cfl Lit if no then there is a Short .only go this far before you continue ! . ok .. I have done My mod many times exactly this way no problem . . there is a spot on the board that one lead from the pot is soldered to and it will short if not careful Its very close to another connection .I have done this and found it shorted .. . anyways try that . forget the diagram for now just do the above only if you want to get it running . . then proceed if Modded cfl lights . If you find that the error is Mine please let me know on that Picture of the Lines pointing to the area in question .. Like i said before i just build them and try to do the best at showing where the connections are . I have used that picture of goats and have replicated it several times but maybe theres a slight difference . so forget the diagram and do as above first ..

Gadget ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 01, 2009, 10:34:27 AM

well i had my fun with the nano mk2 jt ...

so i guess i will finish the 6 pac.. it is almost done anyhow ..

@dog

you hula hoops are not too cheep .....

so i dont know 15 -20 bucks a unit ... but if you just want a tuned coil and no led then im sure we can get it down to 5-6 bucks each....

if you were thinking a buck or 2 im NOT INTRESTED .....

LOL

I BET NOW YOU SPEND OVER 20 BUCKS ON WHAT IS INSIDE THEM .... WELL THIS WAY YOU DONT NEED A CHARGER...

THROW IN A FEW SPARE BUTTON CELLS ...

ANYHOW... I GOT MUCH WORK TO DO ...,

IF YOU WANT THEM THEY ARE DESIGNED TESTED AND WORKING ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on March 01, 2009, 11:48:26 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on March 01, 2009, 09:53:39 AM
Hi Thank you for the reply .good work on your Mod and winding that extra coil . its interesting that you said the Fugi mod is putting out what is putting in . thats two people that said that . there must be an error however its not mine at least on the mod part . the pictorial from goat works on mine . . You can get results If you simply change out the 220 resistor next to the transistor with a 5k to 20 k pot and short the diode .hook up a modded cfl to the Hv cap output with the cap removed . Stop there and you should have a gutted Cfl Lit if no then there is a Short .only go this far before you continue ! . ok .. I have done My mod many times exactly this way no problem . . there is a spot on the board that one lead from the pot is soldered to and it will short if not careful Its very close to another connection .I have done this and found it shorted .. . anyways try that . forget the diagram for now just do the above only if you want to get it running . . then proceed if Modded cfl lights . If you find that the error is Mine please let me know on that Picture of the Lines pointing to the area in question .. Like i said before i just build them and try to do the best at showing where the connections are . I have used that picture of goats and have replicated it several times but maybe theres a slight difference . so forget the diagram and do as above first ..

Gadget ..

Well I'm on my 6th Fuji mod and still no go, one thing I've noticed is that not all boards are made the same, out of 6 only 2 were made the same. Also, out of 6 only 1 had a D1960 transistor. Some have LEDs instead of NE2s, others have the 4th transformer pin soldered while others don't, some have all 4 pins soldered on the trigger transformer while others only have 2 soldered, and on and on....

I think the best thing would be to get the components off the original Fuji cct boards and onto a separate cct board and start from point A to point Z until we can nail it down to a perfect setup and avoid all these discrepancies between the original circuit boards.

I looked for a datasheet on the D1960 transistor on the web but couldn't find one (D1961 and up), it's also not listed in Jeanna's "Transistor specs for transistors database. Information on Transistor prefixes of 2N 2SA 2SB 2SC 2SJ 2SK 3SK and more.pdf" so if it is a requirement to making it work we need to find an equivalent substitute. I found a site where someone listed using the BC 337 and/or D1960 transistors but without the specs of the D1960 it's hard to tell if they are the same.

At any rate, the closest I got to an output higher than 1.5V while adjusting the 20K pot was not enough to light a CFL but was giving really strange outputs on the DMM, I would get an overload at the 20 VDC scale but only 1V at the 500VDC scale! If I set the DMM at the 500 VAC scale I could adjust the pot to get as high as 64 VAC. I just replaced the battery in the DMM and same results so it's not the battery and my other DMM confirmed the same results....

Edit: In case of confusion for beginners, the D1960 listed above refers to the 2SD1960 transistor, on the Fuji circuit board it is marked as D1960.

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on March 01, 2009, 11:50:00 AM

Here is proof a 555 timer circuit can operate on really low voltage. This one is operating on only 0.973v thats under half the voltage needed according to the timer's specs. The leds are dim, but the circuit is setup for a higher voltage and playing with components can yeild a brighter led or if I ran a single led instead of 3 in series.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 01, 2009, 12:10:35 PM

when i bought my RS junk... i got about 300 chips.....

dont know if they will be of use ...

they are latch gate chips... or something like that .....

ill get the part #

i never checked out there use yet ...

this is what they say ;D 8)

74hct175 quad d-type flip flop with reset ..positive edge trigger ....

hummmmm they are 16 pin chips...

ist?

soooooooooo at a closer look at the chips i have a few diffrent ones..... ;D

this one is 20 pin ... it says 74hct373octal d-type transparent latch 3 stage....

then it says under it high speed cmos logic device ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gyulasun on March 01, 2009, 12:42:15 PM

Quote from: mikem_2au on March 01, 2009, 09:20:32 AM
@gyulasun
Thankyou, i have double checked the results, i had to,
for my own Peace of Mind. I am a little fuzzy on what is Happening
with the third winding, if you have the time and are able to explain
this to me more, it would be greatly appreciated.

The equations you have done in your reply will be very helpful, thankyou.

I also hope to show how i got these results tomorrow, just got to
get it from my head to the screen.

@mikem_2au

Hi Mike,

Thanks for your kind answer. I think what the third winding does is connecting the flyback pulse once again in series with the already rectified flyback pulse so seemingly two voltage sources are added in series. Flyback pulse is created when your transistor switches off the current in your 8 turn coil (or with whatever # of turns) and the collapsing magnetic field induces voltage in all the coils on or close the core. So you seem to peel off at least two skins from the beast :)

Regarding your answer to xee2, I am a bit suprised because I automatically assumed you wrote the LOADED value of the output DC voltage (21V) at the load currrent of 27mA... And now it turns out you measured them separately? If so, please use two multimeters for testing: first at the input for the current and the voltage while you have your load on the output, then move the meters to measure the DC voltage and current at the output on the same load, ok?
Because my calculations I have shown on the COP has any sense in this latter case, otherwise it is meaningless, sorry.

Thanks, Gyula

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gyulasun on March 01, 2009, 01:10:26 PM

Quote from: Goat on March 01, 2009, 11:48:26 AM

I looked for a datasheet on the D1960 transistor on the web but couldn't find one (D1961 and up),

Edit: In case of confusion for beginners, the D1960 listed above refers to the 2SD1960 transistor, on the Fuji circuit board it is marked as D1960.

Hi Paul,

I managed to find some data on the 2SD1960 transistor, see this link: http://www.datasheetarchive.com/2SD1960-datasheet.html see on the right hand side vertical column and it here is a good replacement type from KEC http://www.keccorp.com their type is KTD1146, data sheet is here, page 28: http://www.datasheetarchive.com/pdf-datasheets/Datasheets-115/DSAP001244.pdf

rgds, Gyula

EDIT sorry I gave a different link, the correct one is: http://www.datasheetarchive.com/pdf/Datasheet-021/DSA00362797.pdf

Another good possible replacement is a SANYO 2SD1145, see data sheet here: http://www.datasheetarchive.com/pdf-datasheets/Datasheets-30/DSA-580790.pdf

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on March 01, 2009, 01:32:37 PM

Quote from: electricme on February 28, 2009, 08:35:55 PM
@Koen1,
Germanium transisters I think are the way to go, if one turns on below the usual .6volt silicon ones, then it stands to reason we can get better usage out of it. Theres also something about the humble LED, theres a lot more this device can do that hasnt been discovered as yet. Can it be used as a transister itself? just a throw away line, could be wrong.

LOL Jim, are you bugging my appartment or something? I just told a friend how I thought we could do so :)
I have a few of these green blinker LEDs, they blink on and off by themselves, and as far as I've been able to
figure out they also have a little resistance buit in... I am not sure but I think there is a sort of Zener type
setup in these LEDs that only allows the thing to light up when a current of sufficient voltage and amperage
passes the resistor and the zener, and after that it has a little off time.
But I am not sure, could be less Zener and more transistor as in that it regulates its own passing current...
Anyway, the effect on throughput would seem to be similar: only pulses are passed at regular intervals.
So yeah, maybe we can use such blinking LEDs to produce the input pulses eh? :)

@all: On the subject of the comparison of the JT to Tesla's toroidal transformers and the TPU,
there are a few things I'd like to point out. First of all, yes indeed, the generator was a DC generator
with the slide contact commutators placed at such positions on the generator shaft that the output
came in the form of AC that could easily be produced in two out of phase feeds. Simply placing
the slide contacts on opposing sides of the shaft would give 180 degrees out of phase signals,
placing them at 90 degrees on the shaft can give either type of 90 degree offset AC signal.
Telsa very often used his generator and commutator design to produce the input pulses or AC
which he then used to power his transformers and Tesla coils. So yes, in the toroidal transformer
design as posted a few pages back, the generator is not just a dynamo, it is also an AC generator
that produces two out of phase signals. We should be able to build a transistor-based setup
that produces two such AC signals that are out of phase by 90 or 180 degrees and reproduce
this "rotating" magnetic field trick of Teslas. :)

Second, in the post I just mentioned, it was stated that the input signals are 180 degrees out
of phase. I am not sure about this, I think it may be 90 degrees instead. It seems to me that
at 180 degrees out of phase, the magnetic "poles" generated by the input coils do not clearly
"rotate" in a single direction, rather if you look at the displacement of these "poles", it would
seem that the displacement in the ferrite toroid clockwise is equal to the displacement counter
clockwise, and this does not really constiture a rotation... If we were to feed the input signals
at 90 degrees, the "poles" do "rotate" in a clear direction and the displacement should have
a clear clockwise or counterclockwise direction.
But I must admit I haven't discussed this with anyone else yet so perhaps I am just way off?
Thoughts on this are very welcome!
I have read in a few of Tesla's designs that are sometimes named in TPU discussions that
the signals had a 90 degree offset...

Third, the spark gaps on the secondaries with the one secondary coil connected backwards,
now that's just weird. ;)
The spark gaps themselves are not, the backward coil is. ;)
Spark gaps were clearly used by Tesla in just about all of his transformer designs and he was
also clear on why that was preferable: a spark discharge through the air is actually a large number
of discharges back and forth, with a bias to the positive side. The charge does not jump the gap
in one discharge in the direction of neg to pos, but rather it jumps the gap via the ionised air
conduit, then most of the charge jumps back, and forth again, etcetera, untill most of the charge
has moved to the opposite end of the spark gap and disappeared into that side of the circuit.
According to Tesla's own words, this produced a high frequency oscillatory signal with every
pulse discharge over the spark gap. In the classic Tesla "coil" transformer, he used this oscillation
as input to the transformer primary, which of course caused a great many pulses of upward
transformed voltage in the secondary.
We could of course try to replace the spark gaps with Zener diodes of specific voltage...
That would effectively simulate one crucial quality of the spark gaps: to only allow discharge
when the voltage is high enough, so that the capacitor (or other circuit parts) can accumulate
a higher voltage before allowing the input to flow on through the circuit.
But that would not produce the same typical bursts of high frequency oscillations as the spark
gap would. Instead, it would theoretically produce one clean pulse of charge.
However, I am again not entirely certain of this, since I recall Bedini and some others showing
scope shots of pulsed DC from a transistor-based supply, and those shots seemed to show
a high frequency signal superimposed upon the DC pulses, if the scope had a very very high
resolution. I am still not sure if that is the case with all tranformer-produced DC pulses,
or if that depends on the type and quality of the transistors.
Can any of our older and wiser friends here say something about this? :)
Thanks!

Best regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on March 01, 2009, 01:54:11 PM

Quote from: Goat on March 01, 2009, 11:48:26 AM
Well I'm on my 6th Fuji mod and still no go, one thing I've noticed is that not all boards are made the same, out of 6 only 2 were made the same. Also, out of 6 only 1 had a D1960 transistor. Some have LEDs instead of NE2s, others have the 4th transformer pin soldered while others don't, some have all 4 pins soldered on the trigger transformer while others only have 2 soldered, and on and on....

I think the best thing would be to get the components off the original Fuji cct boards and onto a separate cct board and start from point A to point Z until we can nail it down to a perfect setup and avoid all these discrepancies between the original circuit boards.

I looked for a datasheet on the D1960 transistor on the web but couldn't find one (D1961 and up), it's also not listed in Jeanna's "Transistor specs for transistors database. Information on Transistor prefixes of 2N 2SA 2SB 2SC 2SJ 2SK 3SK and more.pdf" so if it is a requirement to making it work we need to find an equivalent substitute. I found a site where someone listed using the BC 337 and/or D1960 transistors but without the specs of the D1960 it's hard to tell if they are the same.

At any rate, the closest I got to an output higher than 1.5V while adjusting the 20K pot was not enough to light a CFL but was giving really strange outputs on the DMM, I would get an overload at the 20 VDC scale but only 1V at the 500VDC scale! If I set the DMM at the 500 VAC scale I could adjust the pot to get as high as 64 VAC. I just replaced the battery in the DMM and same results so it's not the battery and my other DMM confirmed the same results....

Edit: In case of confusion for beginners, the D1960 listed above refers to the 2SD1960 transistor, on the Fuji circuit board it is marked as D1960.

Regards,
Paul

Hi Goat . I have modded all three the aa with neon the aa with led and the aaa fugi . they are all modden the same way . replace the 220-ohm resistor and short the diode. .. ??? Never had a problem and i got 22 of them all different types and they all light up different Modded CFLS / I have no idea unless the cfls in Canada are using something different in the gasses ???? all mine light up all CFLS . 9 13 24 and 45 watts .. all of them are spiral ... The ones in the usa have all the nasty stuff in them .. mercury Vapor . also you cant read the voltage unless you put a diode in series with your meter and your meter is 2000 volts or higher . has to be on the ac scale with a diode and only reads one way . if it Ols your meter dont go high enuff . when they are modded correctly i get a reading of 1900 and something on the 2000 volt scale .

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: yaz on March 01, 2009, 02:00:54 PM

Tried looking up the 2SD1960 and it's substituted by a Matsuhita 2SD965, which is then cross referenced to a ECG 11.
Hope that helps.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 01, 2009, 02:06:40 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on March 01, 2009, 01:54:11 PM
Hi Goat . I have modded all three the aa with neon the aa with led and the aaa fugi . they are all modden the same way . replace the 220-ohm resistor and short the diode. .. ??? Never had a problem and i got 22 of them all different types and they all light up different Modded CFLS / I have no idea unless the cfls in canada are using something different in the gasses ???? all mine light up all CFLS . 9 13 24 and 45 watts .. all of them are spiral

really?

i have a few fugies... i will find them and take a pic

let me know if you modded the one i have ....

thanks gadget...

ist!

just finally got the mk2 6 divider mounted .. i may cut back on the recharge batteries ... so they charge higher and quicker ... might just have 2 of them insted of 4

i was thinking of adding a tiny jt as a indicator light 1 for each input battery ... and mounting the switch and indicator light jt on the other side of the supply battery ...

:)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on March 01, 2009, 02:14:55 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on March 01, 2009, 02:06:40 PM
really?

i have a few fugies... i will find them and take a pic

let me know if you modded the one i have ....

thanks gadget...

ist!

just finally got the mk2 6 divider mounted .. i may cut back on the recharge batteries ... so they charge higher and quicker ... might just have 2 of them insted of 4

i was thinking of adding a tiny jt as a indicator light 1 for each input battery ... and mounting the switch and indicator light jt on the other side of the supply battery ...

:)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on March 01, 2009, 02:51:50 PM

Thanks guys for the information on the transistors, much appreciated.

@ Gadget

I don't doubt that all of what you say is true, in my case however, no go.

The CFLs are different wattage and without the circuits from 5 to 65 Watts equivalent but the only way they light is using the circuit mod from josepino.com which isn't worth it as it drains the battery too fast. I doubt there's any difference in the CFL gasses wether they are from US or Canada.

So the next step for me is to take the components to a separate breadboard and start over one component at a time ;)

It probably doesn't help that my hands are too big for the Fuji cct, my index finger covers over half the board!!! But I did manage to solder the connections as neatly as possible and checked for shorts which there were none so I have no idea why it isn't working out for me.
I know we discussed the transistors before but even the board with the 2SD1960 transistor didn't work, I tried with just the potentiometer and with or without the caps so I don't know what's going on.

Anyways, thanks for the input.

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 01, 2009, 02:58:59 PM

aaa fugi i have here is the pic ..

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on March 01, 2009, 03:03:42 PM

Not sure if anyone else has tried nanocarbonised paper to transmit energy it works well but it wouldn't make my JT light! Has anybody tried this or know why it wont work?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 01, 2009, 03:18:23 PM

@all,

Sorry, i think the discussion was briefly turned to coil over coil - but there is another three wire setup out there. In any event, the thread has leaped two pages ahead so no worries.

My bridged version was working right, but then went out over night. It may be the result of using a dead battery :P .

In any event, all the designs I've posted recently work. Now - it's on to larger things, CFLs or Neons.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on March 01, 2009, 04:08:06 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on March 01, 2009, 02:58:59 PM
aaa fugi i have here is the pic ..

ist

Hi .ok thats the aaa version i posted a couple days ago here http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg160010#msg160010
post 3256
extreamly simple mod . see the white thing ? thats the positions of the 220 resistor replaced with a vr . the diode short is the black diode on the side of the transformer. not the little glass one .
I have not done anything further on this one as far as tuning but i know it will run that CFL on a lower resistance that the 220 . . o you also push the copper contact down and solder it to keep it on and place the CFL on the hv cap output .. see how easy that is ;D
I told you God gave me a Gift that everything i touched worked . Everyone around here asks for me by name to work on there electronic junk . most of the time im in and out in 5 minuets . King Midas with a Curse :o surely Not King Midas in reverse ::)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on March 01, 2009, 04:20:38 PM

Quote from: Goat on March 01, 2009, 02:51:50 PM
Thanks guys for the information on the transistors, much appreciated.

@ Gadget

I don't doubt that all of what you say is true, in my case however, no go.

The CFLs are different wattage and without the circuits from 5 to 65 Watts equivalent but the only way they light is using the circuit mod from josepino.com which isn't worth it as it drains the battery too fast. I doubt there's any difference in the CFL gasses wether they are from US or Canada.

So the next step for me is to take the components to a separate breadboard and start over one component at a time ;)

It probably doesn't help that my hands are too big for the Fuji cct, my index finger covers over half the board!!! But I did manage to solder the connections as neatly as possible and checked for shorts which there were none so I have no idea why it isn't working out for me.
I know we discussed the transistors before but even the board with the 2SD1960 transistor didn't work, I tried with just the potentiometer and with or without the caps so I don't know what's going on.

Anyways, thanks for the input.

Regards,
Paul

Hey Goat Sorry your having a hard time with it . I have no idea . all your doing is replacing the base bias resistor . it should work the same as before you did the mod if you adjust it to 220 ohms . then all your doing with the diode short is changing the PDC to PAC . that Diode is so the cap will see a polarity and charge up to 300 volts . if you jump that diode the cap will not charge anymore because the voltage has no polarity . are you removing the cap ? . Anyways it should work exactly the same on the very first step and that's is replace the 220 with a VR . Stop there . see if it still works after you adjust that the 220 ohms if it does still work it will charge the cap and the neon or led will light . if it doesn't then something there is wrong . if it does work then jump the black diode . If its an led it will light still but if its a Neon it wont . you can check if its Hv with a neon . if it lights a neon it should be BRIGHT BRIGHT meaning it will fire a CFL . .. ok . Take care ..

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on March 01, 2009, 04:54:16 PM

Quote from: stprue on March 01, 2009, 03:03:42 PM
Not sure if anyone else has tried nanocarbonised paper to transmit energy it works well but it wouldn't make my JT light! Has anybody tried this or know why it wont work?

Hi . Welcome to the Pirate Thread . I Dont know what that stuff is but it sounds like something the black base of my Piggy Back Bedini is made of . It looks like Plastic Drills like plastic , smells like plastic but it Must be impregnated with carbon or something because i can put a continuity meter on it from one side to the other and i get a short . I discovered this when i laid My arm on it and got shocked . I said no its my imagination .. But sure enuff this stuff conducts juice . I had to insulate the Bedini circuit from that plastic conductive base to stop the shocks .weird stuff ..

Gadget .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 01, 2009, 05:53:30 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on March 01, 2009, 04:54:16 PM
Hi . Welcome to the Pirate Thread . I Dont know what that stuff is but it sounds like something the black base of my Piggy Back Bedini is made of . It looks like Plastic Drills like plastic , smells like plastic but it Must be impregnated with carbon or something because i can put a continuity meter on it from one side to the other and i get a short . I discovered this when i laid My arm on it and got shocked . I said no its my imagination .. But sure enuff this stuff conducts juice . I had to insulate the Bedini circuit from that plastic conductive base to stop the shocks .weird stuff ..

Gadget .

Wow , that is strange , its lost energy , we need to find a way to tap that.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 01, 2009, 05:54:43 PM

gadget the closest thing i can find is a 100 ohm resistor ...

there is no 220 ohm resistor anywhere on the board..

ist

it lites the neon fairly bright but not the cfl at all ....

here is a pic of where i understand to mod it ..

btw i never modded it to light the neon .. but when the neon is lit the led goes out ... i notice yours gadget is on ... while the led cfl is lit ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 01, 2009, 07:15:07 PM

ok guys ...

easy way to tell if your doing this correctly ...

;D

first i did was solder the switch...

so now it turns on soon as you put the battery there ... i did this after i removed the flash and the big cap ...

then i took a neon ... it has 2 identical prongs inside it ... so i checked to see if it would light it did but ONLY 1 SIDE OF THE PRONGS..

ok no problem ... it was fairly bright but it would not light a cfl ...

so i just bridged the diode next .. i checked agin with the neon ... now both prongs light..... ok ... so now i have it flowing both ways... i have not checked the cfl

i still have not removed the 100 ohm resistor ..

so i would expect it will light the cfl dimly now ...

still my led on the board is not lit

ist!

i get 0 light in a cfl..... funny cuz my OTHER BOARDS LIGHT IT NO PROBLEM WITH OUT ANY MODS.... JUST NOT FULL BRIGHT!!!!!

got to be the bulbs.....

sounds like you get the bad stuff down there gadget ...

it was putting out 260vac .... un loaded 67 vac loaded .... not near enough .... the others put out 380 or so un modded and it is dimm

not near your brightness...

must be the bulb ... what is your modded aaa fugi putting out in voltage gadget??

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on March 01, 2009, 07:32:16 PM

@ Gadget

Here's a pic of the Fuji board with the D1960 transistor, it barely lights the neon at the output. I cut off the 68pf cap lead which you see hanging in the pic (point 1) and the diode short is clearly visible (point 3), also notice the "Achilles heel" spot is not touching so no short there (point 4).

I took a reading of the pot after taking the pic and it's reading 0.68 K ohms (point 2), that's where the neon is brightest but as you can see it's nowhere near really bright. I'll solder the 68pf cap back in but it really wasn't doing anything for the brightness of the neon.

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 01, 2009, 07:55:59 PM

neon nice and bright no cfl light ??

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 01, 2009, 08:00:39 PM

@all

I know about zener diodes but not that much , so i wonder if you send lets say a 60 volts in a 6 volts zener , yes you get 6 volt out but what would happen to amps.?

Anyone has idea?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 01, 2009, 08:28:25 PM

where will we find zener diodes... to play with ?

i discovered the glass diode in the fugi is 1.5meg ohm ... :o ;D

now i was looking for 1 of thease a while ago....

on my mk2 supply board i used the same diode on the super cap as the bridges ... i should replace those diodes with the tiny glass one on the fugi board ..

my cap would fill higher ... and most likely charge the aa batteries faster...

that is what i think ...

ist

what is the diode in the sunbeam cfl unit ?? a zenier?

so i get another retarted idea lol

so i have thease 3 chaseing leds from ramma ... well add 3 jts to them inplace of the leds... and a few caps that fire when full

with the full caps that fire on there own do it agin only with 100vdc ;D use what comes back as out put ... 8)

now you got your tpu ...

well almost .. ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on March 01, 2009, 08:46:46 PM

Quote from: Goat on March 01, 2009, 07:32:16 PM
@ Gadget

Here's a pic of the Fuji board with the D1960 transistor, it barely lights the neon at the output. I cut off the 68pf cap lead which you see hanging in the pic (point 1) and the diode short is clearly visible (point 3), also notice the "Achilles heel" spot is not touching so no short there (point 4).

I took a reading of the pot after taking the pic and it's reading 0.68 K ohms (point 2), that's where the neon is brightest but as you can see it's nowhere near really bright. I'll solder the 68pf cap back in but it really wasn't doing anything for the brightness of the neon.

Regards,
Paul

Goat . that yellow wire with the + is hot and the one beside it is hot . ok then you need to measure the resistance acrosst the middle leg of your pot to the outside led . get it close to 220

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 01, 2009, 09:42:40 PM

Latest bridged version of my joule thief.

This is another one without a ferrite core, just a simple transformer - 16 / 26 windings - 16 for the current producing coil and 26 for the voltage collecting. This one is turned on by a bridging the positive lead of the LED with the positive of the battery.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on March 01, 2009, 09:46:27 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on March 01, 2009, 07:15:07 PM
ok guys ...

easy way to tell if your doing this correctly ...

;D

first i did was solder the switch...

so now it turns on soon as you put the battery there ... i did this after i removed the flash and the big cap ...

then i took a neon ... it has 2 identical prongs inside it ... so i checked to see if it would light it did but ONLY 1 SIDE OF THE PRONGS..

ok no problem ... it was fairly bright but it would not light a cfl ...

so i just bridged the diode next .. i checked agin with the neon ... now both prongs light..... ok ... so now i have it flowing both ways... i have not checked the cfl

i still have not removed the 100 ohm resistor ..

so i would expect it will light the cfl dimly now ...

still my led on the board is not lit

ist!

i get 0 light in a cfl..... funny cuz my OTHER BOARDS LIGHT IT NO PROBLEM WITH OUT ANY MODS.... JUST NOT FULL BRIGHT!!!!!

got to be the bulbs.....

sounds like you get the bad stuff down there gadget ...

it was putting out 260vac .... un loaded 67 vac loaded .... not near enough .... the others put out 380 or so un modded and it is dimm

not near your brightness...

must be the bulb ... what is your modded aaa fugi putting out in voltage gadget??

I think its the Bulbs also . Must be different regulations in Ca. We got Ge bulbs i dont know if i have seen a sunbeam spiral .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on March 01, 2009, 09:50:44 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on March 01, 2009, 07:15:07 PM
ok guys ...

easy way to tell if your doing this correctly ...

;D

first i did was solder the switch...

so now it turns on soon as you put the battery there ... i did this after i removed the flash and the big cap ...

then i took a neon ... it has 2 identical prongs inside it ... so i checked to see if it would light it did but ONLY 1 SIDE OF THE PRONGS..

ok no problem ... it was fairly bright but it would not light a cfl ...

so i just bridged the diode next .. i checked agin with the neon ... now both prongs light..... ok ... so now i have it flowing both ways... i have not checked the cfl

i still have not removed the 100 ohm resistor ..

so i would expect it will light the cfl dimly now ...

still my led on the board is not lit

ist!

i get 0 light in a cfl..... funny cuz my OTHER BOARDS LIGHT IT NO PROBLEM WITH OUT ANY MODS.... JUST NOT FULL BRIGHT!!!!!

got to be the bulbs.....

sounds like you get the bad stuff down there gadget ...

it was putting out 260vac .... un loaded 67 vac loaded .... not near enough .... the others put out 380 or so un modded and it is dimm

not near your brightness...

must be the bulb ... what is your modded aaa fugi putting out in voltage gadget??

withthe bulb off it put out 275 vac with it on only 170

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on March 01, 2009, 10:02:32 PM

@ Dr. Mk1 :)
Hey thanks for the clipper tip . that baby put out on the magnetic field the piggy back bedini uses . another 110 volts to play with ! . thank ya ! those coils are very Nice .. I had three of them and so My dog is Buried and i cut My own hair with Scissors sooooo.... hehehe ,,

@ all . Well its got to be the CL is Different in other countries We are GE energy Smart Cfls . at least that is what is at the dollar store ,wallmart , big blue , kmart .. they work nice .. Maybe we can include them in a kit .. IF Customs don't get em .
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 01, 2009, 10:05:44 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 01, 2009, 08:00:39 PM
@all

I know about zener diodes but not that much , so i wonder if you send lets say a 60 volts in a 6 volts zener , yes you get 6 volt out but what would happen to amps.?

Anyone has idea?

first, sorry if a disappeared for a while, had computer problem, dead mother board.

zener acte much like a variable resistor.
they do not limit the voltage at their "threshole" value per say.
they are usually used to sink the over voltage trough a resistor.

all zeners i have work with to date are only able to withstand miliwatts.

ex: 1n227 14.5 volts 400 miliwatts

real life values without sinking resistor :

at 10 volts input you get 1.8 volts output
at 15 volts input you get 3.4 volts output, diff of 11.6 volts
at 20 volts input you get 7.2 volts output, diff of 12.8 volts
at 25 volts input you get 11.6 volts output, diff of 13.4 volts

except for input values of less then the zener "threshole" value,
the voltage accross the zener will tend to stay near the zener "threshole" value.

note that in reverse i measure a drop of only .1 volts at the output for all input values.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 01, 2009, 10:12:36 PM

@all

My sunbeam works ?

@gadget

Yep hair clipper i estimated it at about 1200 feet of mag wire and the laminate core work real well, lets remember its a electromagnet that work from 120 volts ac .

it also great on my bedini , sine i have bi pole neo magnet disk it get 120 volts ac easy per coil , that is from one coil.

Also i have found some fm transmiter on toroids , hummm , some people wont like that. Air born electric current humm room thempeture super condutivity.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 01, 2009, 10:16:51 PM

just finished the tiny jt indicator light and the on and off switch

this fits inside the aa supply holder .. where the other battery should go

ist!

now i could wind a secondary ... on the tiny put a rectifier off it and a cap and feed this in with the in put of the big mk2

but i will keep it simple for now .. ;D

ist!

@mk1 but is that a aaa fugi board ... i can light cfl too .... with other cam units .... what is the voltage out ... also looks like a heavy duty battery were mine was a cheepie ...

plus the transformer is much larger than the one on my fugi board ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 01, 2009, 10:23:26 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on March 01, 2009, 10:05:44 PM
first, sorry if a disappeared for a while, had computer problem, dead mother board.

zener acte much like a variable resistor.
they do not limit the voltage at their "threshole" value per say.
they are usually used to sink the over voltage trough a resistor.

all zeners i have work with to date are only able to withstand miliwatts.

ex: 1n227 14.5 volts 400 miliwatts

real life values without sinking resistor :

at 10 volts input you get 1.8 volts output
at 15 volts input you get 3.4 volts output, diff of 11.6 volts
at 20 volts input you get 7.2 volts output, diff of 12.8 volts
at 25 volts input you get 11.6 volts output, diff of 13.4 volts

except for input values of less then the zener "threshole" value,
the voltage accross the zener will tend to stay near the zener "threshole" value.

note that in reverse i measure a drop of only .1 volts at the output for all input values.

Thank for the answer , i got a 3 volt 1/2 watt zener , if i run from 100 v dc , What do you think , would this improve the amps.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on March 01, 2009, 10:30:38 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 01, 2009, 10:12:36 PM
@all

My sunbeam works ?

@gadget

Yep hair clipper i estimated it at about 1200 feet and the laminate core work real well, lets remember its a electromagnet that work from 120 volts ac .

it also great on my bedini , sine i have bi pole neo magnet disk it get 120 volts ac easy per coil , that is from one coil.

Also i have found some fm transmiter on toroids , hummm , some people wont like that. Air born electric current humm room thempeture super condutivity.

Sweet ! . I have no idea why some work and some dont ? Yea i see that coil is the stuff . it get more juice running the mags in from of it and hardly no cog at all . Real Nice find . Hehe The Heck with em . I know those cfl bulbs have to produce Rf interference, Maybe thats why they are going total Digital on Tv No more Vhf or uhf .. What in the world Does the FCC expect us to do with all those pocket tvs and crank emergency tvs . what a sham .. .

gadget ....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 01, 2009, 10:31:17 PM

@gadget

For your jt mod germanium the nte 102 seams to be easy enough to get , the question is would it work ?

http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/9365/NTE/NTE102.html

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on March 01, 2009, 11:12:21 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 01, 2009, 10:31:17 PM
@gadget

For your jt mod germanium the nte 102 seams to be easy enough to get , the question is would it work ?

http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/9365/NTE/NTE102.html

Mark

well that one has a on voltage of .27 and a gain of hfe 135 . it will work better than a 2n3904 but it looks like i got the last one on earth . No wonder i got the lowest running current Jt . the transistor is /on voltage specs 0.15 and the Hfe is 275 .. Its is a Shame they Made all the Great stuff way back then . BUT . I have about 80 - 130 coming :) I found an old ham buddy who has a bunch of GERMS hep638 Motorola Vintage transistors made for the military .. . ..they will be supplied in the LPJT Kits . I see that NO one on Net has them or the specs .. its that rare . I have several that i cannot even find a spec sheet at all because they are so rare . only one at 4 star electronics and you have to get a quote for it . I bet they are 30 40 bucks.with shipping . I think any good germanium signal Amp will work very good with Low power Jule Thieves as long as they run 20 mhz and a gain better than 125 .. I think that is why i am having sucess in most of My projects . I got Rare Stuff that you cant buy anymore .even My sk3606 is VERY Special . none available anywhere .. and they do somthing nothing else does . Man . I am Sorry Guys . I never realized until i actually tried to find some of those parts .. Rarer than Moon Rocks .. There is a guy on ebay that is selling Vintage 2n2222 gold transistors that exceed any made today .. and a good price too . edit . oops some one snagged them already today .. ifound a price on the hep 638 . made in 1967 . very rare . 80 dollars .. wow . Ok Im selling Mine for 50 each :) ..

Gadget ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on March 01, 2009, 11:14:42 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on March 01, 2009, 08:46:46 PM
Goat . that yellow wire with the + is hot and the one beside it is hot . ok then you need to measure the resistance acrosst the middle leg of your pot to the outside led . get it close to 220

@ Gadget

I measured the middle leg of the pot to the black lead at the output next to the yellow one and I get 1.25 K ohms but that's as low as it would go. I replaced the pot with a 20 turn one and got it down to 220 ohms but the neon is still low, it gets just a little brighter if I go up in resistance and will shut off if I decrease the resistance somewhere below 220 ohms.

I must be the most unlucky person at this Fuji mod... LOL....

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 01, 2009, 11:27:05 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 01, 2009, 10:23:26 PM
Thank for the answer , i got a 3 volt 1/2 watt zener , if i run from 100 v dc , What do you think , would this improve the amps.

depend of what you mean by "improve the amps".

the miliwatts will be about the same across the zener then as provided by your circuit.

anyone have tryed electroluminescent nightlight from ramma ?

they do light with my Kodak 2 AA board, took from a old 110 mm camera.
i can light 10 of them in series, i have not tested how long they can stay on tho.

i also have no problem lighting cfls, no matter the size and type, but the circuit is not tuned and drain batteries fast.
a 9 watts ramma sunbeam with last only 1 hour on that circuit board.
i only removed the capacitor, shorted the first diode going to the cap and shorted the on/off switch.
i hook the cfls to the leads that where used for the flash tube.
without shorting the diode the cfls won't work.

my problem is to find good transistors from the junk parts i have.
the one in cfls are not good for making a one battery jts.
the ones i can get from PC power supply mostly don't work, like the cfls one, or work so poorly...
didn't had much luck finding good ones. :(

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on March 01, 2009, 11:30:59 PM

Quote from: Goat on March 01, 2009, 11:14:42 PM
@ Gadget

I measured the middle leg of the pot to the black lead at the output next to the yellow one and I get 1.25 K ohms but that's as low as it would go. I replaced the pot with a 20 turn one and got it down to 220 ohms but the neon is still low, it gets just a little brighter if I go up in resistance and will shut off if I decrease the resistance somewhere below 220 ohms.

I must be the most unlucky person at this Fuji mod... LOL....

Regards,
Paul

Gosh .I am so sorry Paul . that Sucks .. Mk1 is in Ca and he lit his . This is a Big Bummer for me as well . I really wanted this to work for everyone . Looks like only 30 percent are having success at some of My projects .. I have More coming for you folks and so does Mk and Ist .. Im letting someone else do a few Miracals though for a while . I like others doing Bad things with these Lil circuits . .. I really have no idea why it dosnt work for you . I have the same transistor on 3 and they work fine . even the little aaa circuit transformer is three times smaller than the aa fugi and it works good . I will Mod that sucker when i feel better and get a couple hours 10-18 off it ..

Best Regards
Albert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 01, 2009, 11:35:46 PM

Alright, so guys, I think we should set a goal here; perhaps something worth starting a new thread on, but because I don't have any materials to work with when it comes to being as far as some of you with lighting CFLs and neons.

I think the idea here it to be able to replace the transformer array presently in existing overhead florescent tube lights with a Joule Thief Circuit capable of utilizing a 12 volt source as it is normally what's found in smart houses, campers, and automobiles.

A transformer capable of lighting 6 12 24 48 or large florescent tubes would truly be a marvel - if it can be designed to use less sources wattage than pre-existing AC 120v setups, then the simple fact that it's a more efficient device might garner some more attention.

As it stands, there are lantern-type lights which use CFL, that come with pre-existing wiring what we are simple re-invinting the wheel for here.

I think that rather than continue to making the same thing over and over - some destingation to all of this may be in order: Thus far...There is the Bedini - jtc combination idea, as well as some other devices which may have implications for the TPU.

I've started a couple of threads which may be of relevance to this one.
The Transistor Discussion here:http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6905.0 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6905.0)
And the Blocking Oscillator Multiforms discussion here:http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6931.0 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6931.0)

Meanwhile, I've got a new jtc.
jt_attempt_8.jpg is a linear transformer consisting of two equal lengths of same gages wire twisted tighly around one another. The interesting part of this one is that, given the circuit configuration, the LED will flash - slower if the capacitor attached to the blocking oscillator is higher, and if it is lower, it will speed up to the point of being continuously on - and then not at all if the capacitance is too small.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on March 01, 2009, 11:58:37 PM

@Koen1

LOL Jim, are you bugging my appartment or something? I just told a friend how I thought we could do so
I have a few of these green blinker LEDs, they blink on and off by themselves, and as far as I've been able to
figure out they also have a little resistance buit in... I am not sure but I think there is a sort of Zener type
setup in these LEDs that only allows the thing to light up when a current of sufficient voltage and amperage
passes the resistor and the zener, and after that it has a little off time.
But I am not sure, could be less Zener and more transistor as in that it regulates its own passing current...
Anyway, the effect on throughput would seem to be similar: only pulses are passed at regular intervals.
So yeah, maybe we can use such blinking LEDs to produce the input pulses eh?

Ha ha ha, No I 'm not bugging you, I havent the experience to do that ha ha.
Here we are halfway around the earth, and 2 people have a similar electronic thought about using an identical device in a different way than it was intensionally designed for.

I have seen a LED when connected in series with the Joule Thief secondary output coil produce ringing on my CRO's screen, when set to DC on the middle centre line, I see a + and a - output. I must do a bit more testing.

Using a Zenner to allow pulses above a certain voltage sounds ok to me, I think the humble neon would be able to do the same, when it conducts, it would pull the voltage low, then after it extinguished, the voltage would go hi, then it would conduct etc etc, so it could be used as a switch.

Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 02, 2009, 12:13:49 AM

now that looks like some thing i said a while ago ...

lol

i can get free engery from a battery a peice of wire....

lol

im sure i said that some where ... lol

ist!

i am able to light a cfl for over 1 hour with a cam unit ... with out modding the diode... well i bet if i mod the diode it is twice as bright!! ...

lol

here is a pic of my jt led indicator installed and working properly .... it has no effect on the mk2 coil ... it still works fine ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: mikem_2au on March 02, 2009, 01:00:17 AM

just thought i would post some interesting results,

i started fresh with a different iron powder toroid.
i tuned this similar to the way described by Mk1 on page 306
but without a pickup coil and aiming for highest ma rather than volts

also, i wind the third winding with the same amount as turns as the primary,

16 turns primary - 4 turns secondary
11vdc 15.9ma

third winding 10uf cap from diode to emitter

16 turns 16.87vdc 22.34ma without cap
11.59vdc 39.2ma with cap

32 turns 23.6vdc 17.5ma without cap
11.3vdc 38.1ma with cap at this point i also get -> 4.12vac

48 turns 28.45vdc 17.26ma without cap
10.75vdc 33.6ma with cap -> 5.7vdc

i will be adding more turns tonight to see what happens.

i found it interesting the more turns i added the lower the vdc i got and the higher the vac.
i am going to have to find an online store where i can buy some better toroids to try this on.

must go read the past days post now.

mike..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: weri812 on March 02, 2009, 01:24:49 AM

HELLO GROUP

Mk1 your fugi board is like mine same battery ;D

i just took mine a part and mod it like is instruction. no cap no flash off swith wired on all the time. the on board neon lit fine and would nock the heck out of ya. shorted the blk diod neon will not lite but will lite 80 leds with resitors on a 12v
lite turn signal board. got alot to catch up with. the three pictures that i took will show you how bright it is about 5 times brighter than in the picture.

good working to all

God Bless
wer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 02, 2009, 02:13:03 AM

@all

I got a real good result on the nano mk2 , using a 5225b 3 volt zener diode to replace the base resistor , i have check the zener for resistance
Got nothing real high resistance , still worked real good.

I have no clue why its working.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 02, 2009, 02:31:50 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 02, 2009, 02:13:03 AM
@all

I got a real good result on the nano mk2 , using a 5225b 3 volt zener diode to replace the base resistor , i have check the zener for resistance
Got nothing real high resistance , still worked real good.

I have no clue why its working.

Mark

Can you post a circuit diagram? I'm having monotony problems.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 02, 2009, 02:35:20 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 02, 2009, 02:31:50 AM
Can you post a circuit diagram? I'm having monotony problems.

Its the regular jt but a diode instead of the 1k resistor , regular 2n3904 , i have tried many all worked but not has good has the 3 volts zener.

And keep all the great experiment , out of the box!

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 02, 2009, 03:48:41 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 02, 2009, 02:35:20 AM
Its the regular jt but a diode instead of the 1k resistor , regular 2n3904 , i have tried many all worked but not has good has the 3 volts zener.

And keep all the great experiment , out of the box!

Mark

I put a 1N914 switching diode in its place and noticed something unusual ...i took an amp reading on it, using the diode and the milliamps being used went from 9.8 dropping quickly down to 2.3 with no noticeable difference in LED brightness.

you'll have to note though that my resistor is up front of the current carrying loop... this seems like a frivolous place to put a resistor or a diode, but the effects are now even more unusual!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 02, 2009, 03:53:53 AM

@ All:

Great work everyone. Boy, do I have some catching up to do. Something like 5 pages since yesterday!!! Keep it up.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on March 02, 2009, 03:55:00 AM

Hi All

I decided to create a separate thread for the Fuji mod, hope you all don't mind.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6932.0;topicseen
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6933.0;topicseen
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6934.0;topicseen

I hope that we can all come together and create a CFL driver circuit that everyone can create and use :)

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 02, 2009, 04:00:44 AM

@ Goat:

I think we have done this already if you read the many previous posts here. All of mine work, and Als, and Jeanna's, etc. Al even has a nice package designed for his Fuji circuits. (I know you know this already)

Feel free to make whatever topics you want, I just don't see the point is all. This topic has been about (give or take at different times) 50% Fuji and 50% torroid JT's. So, speaking of the Fuji here is not hijacking this topic at all. At least, not in my opinion. ***EDIT*** Why did you create 3 topics of the same name?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: flathunter on March 02, 2009, 10:07:13 AM

Hi guys! Finally got something to make videos on - Soory in advance for extremely lame camera work!

Heres my vid of a joule thief running 48 LEDs and a tiny motor. Its using an AA battery, a germanium diode instead of the base resistor (it seemed like the LEDs were brighter with the diode) and 2 toroids in series. One typical little J.thief toroid (half an inch) and one big old (audio?) transformer toroid. It dont seem to work without the second massive toroid - I can only get the LEDs lit, or the motor running, but not both.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uagQdFdJjeE

Still No joy with any CFLs - even when I try ''cheating'' and using a 4.5 V battery. Ive seen Pirates Fuji mod, and Slayers BIG thief lighting CFLs and its making me green with envy!!!!

Great work guys - lets keep breaking those personal challenges!!!! I reckon thats what this site is all about ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on March 02, 2009, 01:29:13 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 02, 2009, 03:48:41 AM
I put a 1N914 switching diode in its place and noticed something unusual ...i took an amp reading on it, using the diode and the milliamps being used went from 9.8 dropping quickly down to 2.3 with no noticeable difference in LED brightness.

you'll have to note though that my resistor is up front of the current carrying loop... this seems like a frivolous place to put a resistor or a diode, but the effects are now even more unusual!

Ooh someone else who puts crucial components way up front in the loop instead of their more logical place :)
I've also tried with the transistor way up front, theat seems to work too. But I must admit that still makes
more sense to me than your moving the resistor to the front... lol :)
Hey, but you say you're getting good results? Must try that variation then! :)

Btw, can you tell me how you hooked that diode up? You said you replaced the resistor with a switching diode...
Are you now talking about the "classic JT" setup where the resistor is in front of the transistor control pin,
or is this already the variation where the resistor is up front in the current loop, and then instead of a resistor
you used the diode? Does that mean the transistor is still in the circuit?

I was actually thinking of replacing the transistor itseld with a blinking LED or a switching diode...
...but I haven't decided yet.

@electrime/GeneralJim: lol yeah well I guess we were just on the same wavelength there eh? :)
I think your remark on possibly using a neon is interesting...
Basically we seem to be coming up with different yet quite similar ways to produce a burst
of charge... Zener could work, neon could work, transistor does work...
In fact, I just realised that the neon might be closest to Tesla's pulse generator, which
was the simple spark gap. :)
But in view of the total absence of any replies on my Tesla toroidal "TPU" post a few pages
ago, I suppose there is hardly any interest in comparing it to Tesla's toroidal transformer,
so I shall try to stop mentioning it. ;)
It is weird though, because that design looks so much like a JT with double secondary that it's
just uncanny.

@Goat: I also have no idea why your modded camera board won't light your CFL...
How many watts is the CFL?
Are you trying to light the CFL tube itself, or are you trying to light the entire CFL lamp from
the normal/standard socket connector? If you've got the glass tube connected to the camera
board it should work fine...
It can't really be the camera board now, can it guys?
Well I suppose it could... But I've tried tree different camera boards now, all are AA, all
are very similar except for a few slight variations in components, but they all had the same
300V cap and the same neon, and they all light up both my small 4W fluorescent tube
as well as my 8W spiral tubed CFL...
So I'm sorry to say I have no clue why yours doesn't want to work. :(

you could always try to build a JT from scratch to light your CFL...
I think Slayer007 (well Slayersomething anyways) posted a fairly nice JT about oh 100 pages
back or so, which he used/uses to light up a fluorescent tube. He posted a full schematic.
That would mean winding your own transformer and soldering the components together,
instead of just cannibalising a camera and ripping some unneeded components off the board,
but it would also be a completely self-made JT that powerd a CFL, and there's not too many
people who have done that... most just use the camera board mod for CFLs. :)
So ehm... yeah, basically there already IS a JT circuit that can run CFLs and fluorescent tubes.

@IST: have you managed to finish your "6pack" JT MK2 variation yet? :)
If so, I can't wait to hear how well it performs. Do you have a datalogger or something, so that
you can hook the batteries to the logger and have your pc compile a nice graph of the battery
charges for the entire duration of your test run?
That way it would be easy to see how much the feed batteries put in and how much the
receiving batteries actually gain. (Yeah, I'm still hoping for an OU JT battery charger ;D
and I can tell you it's damn hard to type with your fingers crossed ;))
By the way, I didn't really see on the pics, does that setup include LEDs too?
That's be really cool, a battery charging over unity JT night light. :o 8) ;D

@the rest: keep up the good work guys! (and gals in case Jeanna is reading this ;))

best regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 02, 2009, 03:24:48 PM

@koen1

I did have a reply for you on the tesla pat , i made a 2 jt to exact coil specs , it work great, and i have learned a lot for it.

And for the diode , you just need to replace the base resistor , with it , i have used zeners , swithching diodes and even a led , they all worked. My 3 volt zener is giving me the same output has a well tuned resistor for the base. the real question is is it lowering the consumption of the jt.

Keep the good work!

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 02, 2009, 05:52:24 PM

Hi everyone,
Oh my oh my, I will be many days reading all the pages. I was on 285 when last here!

SYS

jeanna

(@GM. pronounced like Gina or jean-na. )

EDIT hours later...

OMG it is like those dreams where you run as hard as you can but you are still in the same place. All day I keep reading and I am still in the 200's!!

love it.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 02, 2009, 05:53:17 PM

Quote from: Koen1 on March 02, 2009, 01:29:13 PM
Ooh someone else who puts crucial components way up front in the loop instead of their more logical place :)
I've also tried with the transistor way up front, theat seems to work too. But I must admit that still makes
more sense to me than your moving the resistor to the front... lol :)
Hey, but you say you're getting good results? Must try that variation then! :)

Btw, can you tell me how you hooked that diode up? You said you replaced the resistor with a switching diode...
Are you now talking about the "classic JT" setup where the resistor is in front of the transistor control pin,
or is this already the variation where the resistor is up front in the current loop, and then instead of a resistor
you used the diode? Does that mean the transistor is still in the circuit?

I was actually thinking of replacing the transistor itseld with a blinking LED or a switching diode...
...but I haven't decided yet.

...

best regards,
Koen

The circuit failed overnight. The diode was upfront. transistor is behind everything... the LED actually exists between the two across one of the windings and the transistor... i posted a diagram a few pages back - it's a bridged version.

Using my linear transformer and a diode, I make a flashing circuit - flashes really slowly.

What difference would it make whether or not the resistor existed up front in behind, ..would the net effects across the path be the same regardless?

I think I fried my transistor btw - source voltage perhaps being too high, but I don't know. It's a 2N2222 - these are the only ones I've been using.

Now, about the diode - usually there's a voltage drop across diodes. I have a picture of my using a diode AS a resistor in the circuit, but i had to incorporate a manual resistance switch to activate it - this is problematic though, because it was a red LED, and those are usually low voltage, so...

Have you though about using a Schottky diode then a resistor up front then the current winding. or some variation thereof?

Also, I've made so many different circuits with this, and have come to the conclusion that I don't know what's going on - I'll just leave it at that, especially after seeing that post about ignition coils.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 02, 2009, 10:50:24 PM

@ All:

I am still awaiting my shipment that includes neons so I can fire up my Bedini motor with the JT circuit. There are some other components in this shipment that will help me with other experiments. It has been 2 weeks and still no parts!!!!

I have so many ideas that I want to try but, so little time and money. If it ever thaws out here I will attempt the JT circuit on my earth battery.

@ IST:

You need to include your flashlight mod in your online store devices. This will sell I promise you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 02, 2009, 10:52:25 PM

@ Jeanna:

Welcome back!!!! We all mentioned several times that you would have some heavy reading to do once you returned. There is some good stuff in these pages so, I think you will like what you see. Nice to see you back. Good luck with your reading.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 02, 2009, 11:20:08 PM

* notes that it got quite. must be the overlord telling me to go do my calculus homework.

I bought a small 6" florescent tube and I want to make it light up with a JTC. As mentioned earlier, the slayer mod may be the way to go. Are there any other suggestions for circuits ( other than hacking a fuji camera ) ..I would rather custom build my hardware.

Is this pulsed DC or is it AC ( non uniform )?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on March 02, 2009, 11:33:04 PM

Quote from: Goat on March 02, 2009, 03:55:00 AM
Hi All

I decided to create a separate thread for the Fuji mod, hope you all don't mind.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6932.0;topicseen
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6933.0;topicseen
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6934.0;topicseen

I hope that we can all come together and create a CFL driver circuit that everyone can create and use :)

Regards,
Paul

@ All

Well the first Fuji barebone test circuit was successful, now lighting a CFL from a single AA battery!

See http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6933.msg161181#msg161181 for photos.

I'm not currently doing any mods on the original board so that I can test different transistors.

If it lasts a couple of hours I'll move it to thread 1 as a successful easy replication.

Thanks Al et All :)

Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 03, 2009, 12:19:13 AM

welcome back jeanna

hope you had a great time !! :)

@keon1

im working away on my 6pac toy i will have new pictures tommorow i have finished the supply board ... i cut back on the rechargable batteries... im only chargeing 2 now ... seams to work ok.. it does charge much quicker with 1 aa

it is all mounted and working well it keeps the 4 3.6vdc batteries toped up ...

the 6pac is allmost all wired up ..... down to 6 wires in and 60 out .... it is not mounted yet ..

or tested .. all rings work and put out 24 feeds of 100vdc i dont know bout the jt feeds i have not tapped them yet ...,

@bill

im gonna list prefinished flashlights as well as kits... for a number of diffrent flashlights... i currently have a small silver one im modding right now...

there was a problem with the first one i did and i did not mention it ;D yet .... it needs to be switched ... cuz it will drain the battery when the leds are not being powered ... THIS DID PROVE TO BE A PROBLEM .... ;D but that is ok ... for that mod ... ;) i will simply add a small switch to the ring .... but i dont like this to sell it AND I DONT WANT ANY WIRES CONNECTING ANYTHING ANYWHERE .......

SO

now you have to open up the darn thing everytime you want to use it and flip the switch to turn the ring on .....

still something i dont want to sell ..... :) so ... i sat down with another small one ;D ;D it is just a bit better ..

i solved the switch problem TOTALLY ;) no wires... so that is good news ....

now i can sell my kits modded or do it your self kit ... ;D ;D 8)

so they will be for sale soon THE JT DEAD BATTERY FLASHLIGHT ...

no idea what they should sell for ....?? tho ... hummmm ideas?

any how when i compleat the SIMPLE SOLUTION MOD I WILL POST HOW IT IS DONE ...

now my ring turns on and off with the orginal switch ... aswell does the leds without any external wires... ;D

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 03, 2009, 01:05:41 AM

@ All:

I had an idea so I am going to try it. I started a topic...Joule Thief Circuit Diagrams,etc. here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6942.0

This is a locked topic but it will eventually contain all of the circuit diagrams posted here for easier reference for folks. i may add some photos as well. this will be so anyone can look and find the schematic they are looking for without having to wade through all of our posts. If I have a wrong diagram, or if you feel I have left some out, please tell me here, or im me and I will fix it. It is going to take me some time to go back through all of our posts here and pull out the technical stuff, so please be patient.

I am doing this in the interest of providing fast access to all of the technical information we have built up over these past few months. Also, please feel free to post here, or im me, with any additional stuff you think should be included. Thanks again to everyone for making this topic so enjoyable and informative.

Bill PS I had wanted to do something like this for the earth battery topic last year, but never got around to it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on March 03, 2009, 01:31:59 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on March 03, 2009, 01:05:41 AM
@ All:

I had an idea so I am going to try it. I started a topic...Joule Thief Circuit Diagrams,etc. here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6942.0

This is a locked topic but it will eventually contain all of the circuit diagrams posted here for easier reference for folks. i may add some photos as well. this will be so anyone can look and find the schematic they are looking for without having to wade through all of our posts. If I have a wrong diagram, or if you feel I have left some out, please tell me here, or im me and I will fix it. It is going to take me some time to go back through all of our posts here and pull out the technical stuff, so please be patient.

I am doing this in the interest of providing fast access to all of the technical information we have built up over these past few months. Also, please feel free to post here, or im me, with any additional stuff you think should be included. Thanks again to everyone for making this topic so enjoyable and informative.

Bill PS I had wanted to do something like this for the earth battery topic last year, but never got around to it.

@ Pirate

Good move on your part :)

The transformer pin numbers don't match the circuit at http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6942.msg161198#msg161198 , this was noticed and corrected by RAF if memory serves correctly, which post way back I can't remember.

Here's the link to my interpretation of the Fuji transformer pins http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6933.msg161181#msg161181

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 03, 2009, 01:38:45 AM

@ Paul:

Thanks. it is early yet for getting these posted and I am sure I will have more outdated or revised diagrams as I go. Thanks for pointing this out. I will make the change.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 03, 2009, 02:13:04 AM

Hi and good night everyone,
I got to page 304 I think. so it will be a while more. I just want to add a couple of comments.
@Goat. I love the fuji circuit but it is a manufactured product. and as good as it is, it seems to change a lot over time. we kind of went over this already. IT IS A REALLY GOOD WAY TO LEARN WHAT IS NEEDED IN A DESIGN OF OUR OWN.

@GADGETMALL,
WOW, THAT CFL ON YOUR FUJI MOD IS BEAUTIFUL.

oops sorry about the caps.

@jim,
I used a ultrasonic device to keep the squirrels away. They had chewed through the eves in my house in Massachusetts, and were playing hockey with acorns in the space over my bedroom and under the 3rd floor space. No one could get in there and they chewed through any fixes that were added.
The supersonic device added to the 3rd floor room made them leave. ahh I could sleep again!
You could try it on your mice. It was a higher pitch than my ears could hear so it won't bother you.

MK1,
I am really interested in going the mag amp route. I think this is the real answer since it won't be vulnerable to overvoltage destruction as the silicon transistors are.
Not only that it is what I think the guys in the last century were doing/using and calling make and break.
I have copied the butler information. Have you made any progress? I have only gotten to page 304. If you added info nevermind, but if not, I would really love to hear about this.

There is more, but I forget.

@Bill,
Good idea to make a thread that just has the pics and the circuits.

BB tomorrow,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 03, 2009, 02:29:22 AM

@jeanna

Welcome back!

Lets say i did not have that much time lately but its all going good, my project tonight is a mk8 , so 16 X 27 turns lol, i usually get 100 volts from about 22-24 turns , i want to to a cfl test , sine i got a neon full on , from a button cell on my mk2 , i tough cfl time good willing.

Btw , me and gadget , got into a argument , we bought apologized , and are good friend now , so don't worry about it !

Mark

@pirate

Real good idea , you got there !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 03, 2009, 02:51:15 AM

@ Jeanna and MK1:

Thank you very much. I was trying to think of a way to get folks the info they need without reading through all of our posts. I, myself, have seen a posted schematic, then order the parts online to replicate and about a week later when the parts came in, I found myself searching through about 28 pages of posts to find the schematic of what I was wanting to replicate when I ordered the parts. This will take time to do and even more time to go back and correct everything, but I feel it will be worth it.

As Paul did, please contact me as I am starting at the beginning of the topic and if I post a drawing that has since been revised or updated, let me know and I will make corrections. As a matter of fact, I saw what Paul was trying to do with his topics and it reminded me of something I thought of doing with the earth battery topic long ago, but just never got around to doing. Our great topic here has so many posts, it is hard for us active posters to keep up much less someone new coming into our topic for the first time. Most of the new folks ask..."How can I build a Joule Thief?" and we answer, well....it was posted way back somewhere....find the schematics and build it. Hopefully, my efforts will help this a little.

It is going to take a while and I may not have all that much time all of the time. Knowing you guys, by the time I get "done" there will be another 50 drawings to post up over there, ha ha. But, that's ok.

Also, please let me know either here, or via im if I credit someone incorrectly, or not at all for one of their drawings. I really respect everyone's ideas and input and I want them to receive the credit they deserve for their work so, if I get this wrong, it will not be an insult to me for you to correct me. Any ideas anyone has to improve the data posting topic, please tell me.

Thanks again to everyone here that has made our topic so interesting and worth participating in.

Once again, welcome back Jeanna!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on March 03, 2009, 03:05:00 AM

@ Pirate...Bravo and a big thank you :)

If we can get everyone to help you move the most recent circuits to the beginning of the thread it would get everyone up to speed that much faster, good move.

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 03, 2009, 03:18:59 AM

@ Paul:

You may be correct. I was doing them in the order they appeared originally but, maybe I should start at the end and work backwards like you suggest. Well, I did post Gadgetmall's Fuji mod in the beginning and then went in chronological order.

This is a good suggestion and at a good time. It would be hard to reverse all of this once it was nearly done, ha ha. I will see what I can do. Thank you for your idea, it is a good one.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 03, 2009, 03:27:14 AM

@pirate

thanks again

@all

The mk8 is look like a xmas ornament , looks good on my green Gem toroid , copper red mag wire 216 turns on each side hum , only took 25 min to do hum , say what , yep , how you say , real simple , i like simple things less is more , i always try to get it so anyone could do it !
Since i don't have much faith on the selling power , of america , yes small a , like small e .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on March 03, 2009, 03:31:28 AM

@ Mk1

All the newer and better proven circuits and suggestions should be added at the beginning of Bill's new thread in order to keep everyone up to date.

Edit: MK1 you had a good suggestion of putting the link to the thread and location of the original circuits. Good one!

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on March 03, 2009, 03:41:06 AM

@ All

One thing I have a problem with in the JT thread is the components used in the circuits. Could I ask everyone to post as much information as possible on the toroid used in the circuit, there's just too many discrepancies among toroid material and size out there.

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 03, 2009, 04:02:30 AM

@ Paul:

Mark made a very good point. If I put all of the "new" stuff at the beginning of the topic and then, a few weeks later there is newer "new" stuff...I can't go back and add that in first. I think I have to do this in the order we originally did it to be consistent with future advances and entries. As for the page ref. I can do that but it will take me a lot longer. Probably be good to have though.

I think folks have been pretty good about the details of components....when they have any. Some of the problem might be that, like me, a lot of folks salvage components from other circuit boards, devices, etc. and this information is not available. I have many components from cfls for example, that have no markings on the capacitors, or transistors or the diodes. None at all. This makes it hard to replicate and kind of blows the scientific approach for sure. But, I agree with you, whenever possible, folks should label and document everything they use.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on March 03, 2009, 08:25:39 AM

Just wanted to let everyone know I'm still alive ;D

When they started producing this new product here at work, I had to take over some additional duties. They actually want me to work! Can you believe that? :o

;D

So, I've gotten uber-behind on the thread. I did manage to play with Stevesrd's pulse motor(from Youtube). I've gotten some WICKED power using two AA batteries in series, using a tiny DC motor(don't know the minimum voltage), and a transformer from an OLD calculator. Just the BEMF from this lights two high-brightness LED's and two regular LED's all in series! And, when the motor is running, DO NOT TOUCH THE BEMF alligator clips! It's a shocking experience! ;D
I think General Jim would say it was "biting the pinkies."

I will need to go back and re-meter this thing, but the BEMF I measured when the motor is running from two AA's seems wrong. I hooked the meter up correctly, but I was getting things like 20Amps AC and a few hundred volts from the BEMF in little bursts. I have a DC motor that runs on a minimum of 6v DC. If I can ever get the damn thing open, I will turn it into a pulse motor and see what I can get from it. Maybe, I can use a JT to get it to run on less and see what BEMF I can get from that. Unfortunately I don't know how much of a step-up the transformer is. The mains plug ran into the big side and stepped down so I turned it around. I'll see if I can post a video of it this week. Seeing those LED's running like that from 3v dc, a pulse motor, and a transformer is just COOL ;D

I'll try to catch up on the thread this weekend.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on March 03, 2009, 08:33:02 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 02, 2009, 03:24:48 PM
@koen1

I did have a reply for you on the tesla pat

oops, sorry for overlooking it ;)

Quote, i made a 2 jt to exact coil specs , it work great, and i have learned a lot for it.

Great stuff, I still need to wind mine. Did you feed the input signal from the transistor to the
2 input coil sections at 180 or 90?
Or did you use the two input coil sections as we have been doing in the classic JT?
(that is, battery feed to transistor to primary, switching of transistor done via secondary,
no two seperate signals, no 180 or 90 degree offset)

QuoteAnd for the diode , you just need to replace the base resistor , with it , i have used zeners , swithching diodes and even a led , they all worked. My 3 volt zener is giving me the same output has a well tuned resistor for the base. the real question is is it lowering the consumption of the jt.

Thanks, that is very usefull info. So indeed we can use all kinds of diodes insted of the transistor.
And you are correct in that the question is not really if we can use them as such, but whether or not this increases the JTs energy efficiency.

I have a datalogger somewhere around here, and when I finish the toroids I'm trying to wind I plan to hook the circuit up as a battery
charger using a few caps and diodes and then stick it on the logger for a prolonged test run. I plan to start with one full rechargeable
AA and two empties and see what happens. I am not sure whether or not I should try to combine it with LEDs to get a sort of
JT powered battery charger flashlight, or if I should rather do away with the LEDs and use diodes that don't consume any energy instead.
Suggestions are always welcome!

Regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on March 03, 2009, 08:47:06 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 02, 2009, 05:53:17 PM
What difference would it make whether or not the resistor existed up front in behind, ..would the net effects across the path be the same regardless?

I'd say so yeah but most JT circuits I see on the web are all identical and have them behind...

QuoteI think I fried my transistor btw - source voltage perhaps being too high, but I don't know. It's a 2N2222 - these are the only ones I've been using.

Now, about the diode - usually there's a voltage drop across diodes. I have a picture of my using a diode AS a resistor in the circuit, but i had to incorporate a manual resistance switch to activate it - this is problematic though, because it was a red LED, and those are usually low voltage, so...

Hmmm yes I see what you're saying. And the voltage drop is also something I wondered about... If the goal is to light the LED then it's
of little importance but then that's not the best spot for the LED either, and if it's for switching purposes then do we really want a voltage drop eh?

QuoteHave you though about using a Schottky diode then a resistor up front then the current winding. or some variation thereof?

Yes, thought about it but have not tried yet. Can't find a good Schottky around here although I'm sure I have a few hidden away somewhere...

QuoteAlso, I've made so many different circuits with this, and have come to the conclusion that I don't know what's going on - I'll just leave it at that, especially after seeing that post about ignition coils.

LOL well at least that is very honest and clear. :) I think I understand what is going on but I have trouble explaining it.
Besides, depending on how exactly the coils are wound and pulsed there are so many possible variations, and while they mostly do the same
thing(s), some variations might be extremely more efficient than others.

Thanks for the reply! :)

Regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on March 03, 2009, 08:57:35 AM

@Jeanna: Welcome Back! ;D
Did you enjoy your outing? :)

@Pirate: Great idea, that seperate thread for schematics! Thanks a huge lot! :)
I think you're right on the posting order, you can't really stick the newer
schematics in front of the older posts, so posting them in chronological
order would probably be best. And it is just as clear, really.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 03, 2009, 10:25:35 AM

hears a GREAT IDEA.......

stop doing it with miliamps ::) :P

try amps!!! ....................

ist!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 03, 2009, 10:30:41 AM

now imagine my coil that currently puts out 110vdc...... or 110vac .... hummmmmm....

it requires 1 volt to operate...... hummmmm it returns 110v hummmmm

now

WHAT WILL BE IF?

I USED 1 VOLT AT 1 AMP WICH EQUALS 1 WATT AS A SUPPLY ...

WHAT WILL THE RETURN BE !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!.......

:o

IST!!

just incase you wanted it in 0's n1's lol it would read 110 110 1 110 111 ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on March 03, 2009, 10:47:00 AM

ehm... isn't that a matter of the transformer ratio?
So if you're getting out 110V from a <1V input,
at what? 20mA?
So that's a 1x20=20mW ?
divided over 110 Volts would be 0.1818 mA ?

Now if that's correct, then if you were to take a 1W input
at 1V and 1A, then if the transformer ratio remains the same,
you should get out something like 9.09 mA ....

So what's so super about that, exactly? ???

Unless of course the ratio output:input is >1 and standard
transformer ratios are useless... ;) ;)

regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Thaelin on March 03, 2009, 10:54:19 AM

A little late in the lineup but here. I was reading the part where some one
wanted two signals from the same torrid but 180 out of phase. I did this
very thing while playing with transmission lines.
Simply wind two coils around the torrid as output but reverse to each other.
Then join the two start sides as the common. The other two will now be reverse
phased to the other in reference to the common.

Also one coil with a center tap will do the same.

thaelin

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 03, 2009, 11:15:18 AM

Quote from: Koen1 on March 03, 2009, 10:47:00 AM
ehm... isn't that a matter of the transformer ratio?
So if you're getting out 110V from a <1V input,
at what? 20mA?
So that's a 1x20=20mW ?
divided over 110 Volts would be 0.1818 mA ?

Now if that's correct, then if you were to take a 1W input
at 1V and 1A, then if the transformer ratio remains the same,
you should get out something like 9.09 mA ....

So what's so super about that, exactly? ???

Unless of course the ratio output:input is >1 and standard
transformer ratios are useless... ;) ;)

regards,
Koen

listen

HAVE YOU BUILT THE MK2 YET! ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! JUST WONDERING ........ and im not tooooooo sure you have read the thred......

if you did HALF OF YOUR QUESTIONS WOULD BE ANSWERED......

lets say .... this WHO CARES WHAT THE OUTPUT IS ...... lol

THE QUESTION IS MORE THIS HOW MUCH OUT PUT DO YOU WANT ..............................

also i can make 1 coil with 110v or i literly could make 20 .... on the SAME RING ..... DONT MATTER TO ME ....... THE INPUT WILL BE THE SAME ....

the out put will be whatever 1 coil is x how many i put there :P sheesh ....

NOW POP A CAP ON EACH OUTPUT .......................DUH .....

IST.......

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on March 03, 2009, 01:58:07 PM

Quote from: jeanna on March 02, 2009, 05:52:24 PM
Hi everyone,
Oh my oh my, I will be many days reading all the pages. I was on 285 when last here!

SYS

jeanna

(@GM. pronounced like Gina or jean-na. )

EDIT hours later...

OMG it is like those dreams where you run as hard as you can but you are still in the same place. All day I keep reading and I am still in the 200's!!

love it.

jeanna

JEANNA !!! I Missed You ! ;) I hope you Had a Good Time . Please Disregard the Dog Fights . you know the Boys get roudy when the girls gone :) Glad you are back in on piece !.
Albert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on March 03, 2009, 02:06:38 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on March 03, 2009, 01:05:41 AM
@ All:

I had an idea so I am going to try it. I started a topic...Joule Thief Circuit Diagrams,etc. here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6942.0

This is a locked topic but it will eventually contain all of the circuit diagrams posted here for easier reference for folks. i may add some photos as well. this will be so anyone can look and find the schematic they are looking for without having to wade through all of our posts. If I have a wrong diagram, or if you feel I have left some out, please tell me here, or im me and I will fix it. It is going to take me some time to go back through all of our posts here and pull out the technical stuff, so please be patient.

I am doing this in the interest of providing fast access to all of the technical information we have built up over these past few months. Also, please feel free to post here, or im me, with any additional stuff you think should be included. Thanks again to everyone for making this topic so enjoyable and informative.

Bill PS I had wanted to do something like this for the earth battery topic last year, but never got around to it.

My Gosh . I dont know how you are going to do that . . You have to go thru every post ? I wish there was a way like on other fourms to list the attachment on a thread so you wount have all that work . well if you take the time to do all that then i will download them all and zip em and post in download section . ok ? I wanted to do that but the thread got to be a Monster !! . I am Sick as a Dog . temp is 103 . I check with ya ll l8r
gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on March 03, 2009, 02:12:14 PM

okay no offense IST, but it is not like your posts are extremely clear
so don't blame me for not catching everything you drop a hint to...

And yes I have read the thread but no not every page. This thread
grows exponentially and I don't always have time to read every
additional page.

No I do not have a working "MK2" yet, and in fact it is still not
entirely clear to me what exactly you mean by that.
Do you mean the toroid as posted by MK1, that pic that shows
a toroid with 2 small 4-winding input JT coils and 4 coils placed
oppositely on the ring between the input coils, which are all wound
of 12 winds one way and 10 back?
If that is what you call "the MK2" then no, I have not wound that yet.

I have only built a bunch of classic JTs, a few camera mods, and I have
been doing some experiments with coil variations in the classic JT circuit.
So far I have gotten a few nice results using a secondary around the JTs.

But I cannot say that I have any form of conclusive proof that the output
I'm seeing in the secondary load (the LED series) is not pulled from the
battery entirely.
Can you?
Are you very sure that you can pull as much output from it as you want
with the same input, as you say?
Not that I don't want to believe you, but how sure are you?

Also, I am not the frantic builder that you are. I do not have very much time
to spare and when I do have time to spend on JT experiments I struggle
with the coils. I have not obtained any large ring cores yet, the largest I
have are like 2cm outer diameter, so I need to wind them with really fine
wire, and whith my fingers about as wide as the entire ring core that is a hell
of a job. ;) So it takes a while to wind one and often something goes awry
during winding and the stupid wire gets tangled or whatever and my coil is
messed up so I have to uncoil part of it and re-wind... Really tedious.
What I need is a midget to wind my coils for me, I think. ;D

To answer your question: it is not so much about what voltage output
I'm looking for, it is the wattage that counts. Ultimately it would be great to
have a self-running 230V AC generator. But we're not at selfrunners yet,
so let's look at battery chargers then...
I would like to make a battery charger that can charge 2 batteries from 1.
Soon as we have that, expand it with a 4th battery and an auto switching
circuit that flips the connections, effectively replacing the full batteries
with the empty ones when the first are fully charged. Then we could use
that 4th battery as direct output while the other 2 are being charged from the
one source battery.

I was seriously considering to make a toroid wound like that Tesla toroid,
and try to feed it signals that are 180 and 90 degrees out of phase to see
what comes out. MK1 apparently did so, and he got good results... but I don't
knw what those results were and how they were "good"... could be good because
it behaves like a good JT, or could be good in that it puts out tonnes of excess
energy, who knows...
As long as I don't have a way to produce that 90 degree phase offset I don't
think I will be attempting any winding of that coil contraption. I have enough
trouble as it is trying to get my multiple coils on as it is. ;)
Now I must go, have to finish winding a secondary before wrapping the primaries
around it. Still no MK2 I'm afraid, just a simple double secondary JT.

Kind regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 03, 2009, 03:15:12 PM

Al:

Man, I hope you feel better.

Yes, this new project I am attempting will take some time, so far I am up to page 45.....a looong way to go . I am getting better at it and now adding the page where the diagram or photo was posted.

Thanks everyone,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 03, 2009, 04:25:43 PM

@koen1

I guess , you will have to try it , the mk series , are design to give a ac out put , by having the 2 coil at 180 from each other and the coil going up and down , Has for getting more , then in that is still not clear , if you would like to clear the confusion , i will help you to make one , if you like that . But traditional theory state that the current is equal in the coil that is with one prim and on secondary , but you can make many secondary they are all the same.

My last mk2 light many neon for a button cell , that is with a regular jt circuit . The secondary are not connected to circuit , So i am real happy with results . My neon are rated at 120 ac.

Now , lets not forget the other ways to get excess energy , like the back emf and tuned tank , to keep the battery going , i don't care much for battery running with gain , because to battery will need to be replaced in the circuit eventually , so not that interesting to me.

Mark

@thaelin

yep , the only thing really needed is the winding direction , you can make the Tesla pat , on one transistor , just by being careful on how its wound , the regular jt is like center tap coil bout coil are going in opposite direction.

@gadget

Dr mk1 is on duty , lol , take care bro!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 03, 2009, 04:56:48 PM

@all

Sorry i have to , every year banks make incredible profit , usually the profit are calculated with the operation fee , now one year it doesn't make profit , it goes bankrupt ? what ? How many company have loses , not less gain and manage to keep in business , what the fuck is so special with bank ? They got your money , the only thing they make is money every year , every atm makes millions for them , how can they
do that , where is the money made last year , and the years before that . Back in last september dow was at 14 000 , now at 6776
every one i know is loosing money every day. I was told about the future last june and i have to say it is all planed , and its going down next month . I smell the amero real good now.

I am so lucky to live at this time in history ! Well nothing has really changed yet.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xenomorphlabs on March 03, 2009, 05:43:12 PM

Quotewhat the fuck is so special with bank ?

They have the governments by the balls, infiltrated the administration and manipulated it to
inject money into them which has in turn to be taken up as a credit (out of thin air) from the same banking apparatus that receives the so-called "stimulus" in a way that they double profit from this biggest heist in human history by charging interest on this credit to be paid by the tax-payers.
9 trillion USD stolen until now, more to come. While property is consolidated and homes are taken away from home loan debtors.
The ultimate plan is to gain centralized control of world politics by handing over political power to a
"world financial institution" that will supersede all governments. This is done by creating a problem (financial crisis), then waiting for the reaction (people calling for measures against the crisis) and finally offering the solution, a new world bank with a new world currency that will solve the very same crisis that they have created.

These coherences can all be googled, read in mainstream news.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on March 03, 2009, 06:29:04 PM

I have had problems with bank EMF also...

Regerds...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 03, 2009, 06:42:23 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on February 26, 2009, 07:29:09 AM
Maybe you are doing something great on all your small videos. But saddly I have not been able to see any one of them. My machine does not see that kind of videos. The ones that end with .3gp.

Do you know of any small free viewer?

Jesus

Hi Jesus,
I am taking a break from reading. Maybe someone already answered you.

Quicktime reader works perfectly on those 3gp on my machine. Maybe this is only a mac or linux thing but quicktime reader is free for MS based computers too.

I am catching up!!!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 03, 2009, 08:00:07 PM

I am up to page 60 on pulling the drawings and some photos. It is slow going but I will get there....eventually.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 03, 2009, 08:52:19 PM

@Pirate; We thank you sincerely for all the reading that you're doing. As it stands, the website seems to be slow - maybe my internet connection is just creeping along.

@those worried about the banks. Banks are the union. ...and the dow is at 7K or so now. there is a big wtf that needs to go out about this,... haha@ the fact that this gets posted in the Joule Thief thread though, that's real funny.

Meanwhile, I've just bought some transistors from a local supply company retailing NTE products. Is anyone familiar with this brand?

Also, Has anyone used a darlington pair for a transistor instead of the usual npn type?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: weri812 on March 03, 2009, 10:03:47 PM

hello all

good to see you back jeanna :) :)
great work pirate. :)

and here is my hard work. see picture

ALL keep up the good work

God Bless
wer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 03, 2009, 10:10:45 PM

nice weri

i made a drawing for everyone how to make a mk2 coil

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 03, 2009, 10:16:40 PM

@ist

Nice , thanks , i guess we will see cfl on the regular jt soon, and about the same run time has a led, yes forever. lol.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on March 03, 2009, 10:25:05 PM

Well...so much for my 'bank EMF' joke.

Comedy is a lonely business. :)

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 03, 2009, 11:09:01 PM

OOO my tongue is hanging out. but I finally made it!
I am not too sure about the comprehension though!

My first question is to

@MK1
Is your numbering system about the number of doubled pick up coils?

A MK1 had 13 up and 13 down on each side of the 2 jt winds. So, is a MK2 gonna have that plus another set of 13 up and 13 down on each side?

(I realize the 13's could be changed to different numbers.)

Is this your numbering system?

@IST
Thanks for that drawing. I will see if I can see/read it. I will ask q's if not, OK?

@Gadgetmall,
I can wait til you get better -- soon I hope. I am going to try a fujimod on my aaa fujiboards. I think this is really cool. If we, because of you, can make cfl circuits that last 12 hours on 1 aaa or aa, this is fabuloso.

@jadaro,
Would you be willing to move your resistor and cap into the spot BETWEEN the base of the transistor and the 40 turn coil? Just to see what happens. I am not asking you to conform. I want to have a basis for comparison on your copper coil toroid.

This could be a real breakthrough if it works the same or are you seeing better?

(then you can continue with your experiments.) Thank you very much.

It is 8PM. I think I will break for supper!

Thank you all,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 03, 2009, 11:09:09 PM

@ Weri812:

Great work on the tube light with the Fuji!! nice job.

@ IST:

Thanks for posting the MK1 coil info diagram....that will be included when I finally get caught up on the diagram topic. I am sure your info will help a lot of folks.

@ MK1:

Yes, I think you are correct....not too far from cfls on the toroid JT circuits now. This is doable for sure.

@ Cap-Z-ro:

That's ok, we will be here all week....da ta boom! Yes, comedy is a lonely business for sure. Ha ha.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on March 03, 2009, 11:17:00 PM

@all
I been havin a slack attack, now I got a lot of catching up reading to do.
Built a few electronic kits, Tryangle and Square wave generator.
Built a 0-15v DC adjustable power supply.
Built a 2.3v to 9v DC to DC converter, it has a torid I had to wind.
Trying to recover 8 x 12v Gel cells, filled them with EPSON SALTS

@The NOP,
Sorry to hear you motherboard died.
If you still got it, take a good close look at the larger capacitors, if there is one or more with a bulging top, replace the cap/s they will probably be a parcial short.
If you see a cap leaking, replace it also.

That should fix er up.
Back to study.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 03, 2009, 11:48:16 PM

@jeanna

Yes mk1 has 1 pickup coil on each side , mk2 has 2 , and mk6 has 6 so total 12, and mk8 so 16 .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 03, 2009, 11:52:02 PM

Mark:

Are we going to see the MK 10 soon? Or, would you need a larger toroid to make this?

Keep up your great work here and thank you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 04, 2009, 12:11:25 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 03, 2009, 11:48:16 PM
@jeanna

Yes mk1 has 1 pickup coil on each side , mk2 has 2 , and mk6 has 6 so total 12, and mk8 so 16 .

Mark

Awesome.

How do you put these together? or do you just run each pickup to a different array or electrical function?

I think since I already made a mk1, I can make a mk2 without too much confusion, eh?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 04, 2009, 12:54:25 AM

Quote from: jeanna on March 03, 2009, 11:09:01 PM

@jadaro,
Would you be willing to move your resistor and cap into the spot BETWEEN the base of the transistor and the 40 turn coil? Just to see what happens. I am not asking you to conform. I want to have a basis for comparison on your copper coil toroid.

This could be a real breakthrough if it works the same or are you seeing better?

(then you can continue with your experiments.) Thank you very much.

It is 8PM. I think I will break for supper!

Thank you all,

jeanna

I'll have to get back with you about that. I have an ear ache right now - it's been one thing after another - cold / flu - sinus infection - ear ache ...what next? ...scientific breakthrough? :P

I'm going to have to build the device from scratch - I've been experiementing with linear transformers - basically 1:1 ratio - but with little success.

I did attempt to do what you asked, but to no avail - but after connecting it in regular way - it's not working in normal mode.

By asking me to arrange it this way - do you mean bridge the resistor with a capacitor - as in have capacitance across resistance between the coil and the transistor? This seems simple enough. I'll give it a try.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 04, 2009, 01:32:18 AM

@jeanna,
Ok so I threw together another JT to try your idea ..I include these pictures because if what you asked was as stated above ( confusing to me ) ...I may have to build another one to test your idea.

I wound this toroid there with twice as many windings on the upper path from + to collector as there are from + to base. The windings are setup so that the paths oppose one another on the toroid as far as direction of current. This circuit doesn't seem to accept a capacitor. NO capacitor... and just for verification, this is using a 1.5v battery. This seems absurd to me..not having a capacitor.

Both coil paths are the same in these photos. The toroid is from the charred remains of a CFL. Both version of this circuit use about 1.6ma when inserting the ammeter, the current starts out initially around 4ma and then rapidly decreases to ~1.6ma ( close to theta :P )

The third image is a bridged version - it uses about 2ma with the resistor in the middle. COme to think of it, image three doesn't look like it should work at ALL...but it does, somehow.

Edits to add images and text. FFR - this green led seems to produce more light than usual - it's aparent brightness at operating voltage is exceedingly bright 900mlm or something like that. So, forewarning that when tested with other LED colors, the brightness was low except for red.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on March 04, 2009, 02:02:15 AM

@Jeanna,
I am 5 posts back playing catchup like you.

Welcome back to the thread.
Hope you managed to relax and recharge the internal batts.

I have a Multi frequency thingie pluged in the power point, the red led flashing as power is on, green LED cycles through Hi to Low back to high, I will see how it works over time.

@bill,
This is a excellent idea about putting all the circuits i one section.
I think you should keep the posts in the order they were posted as people can then see improvements as they are made, however I my views are flexable.

@all,
Got to buy a lawnmower, mine wont start siiii, and its getting too old in the tooth, and the grass n weeds are a foot long.
I might get 2 battery operated ones, petrol is going to go through the roof shortly. At least I won't be worring about petrol, oil or sparkplugs.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 04, 2009, 02:40:03 AM

@ Jim:

forget the lawnmower...just set fire to it....oops....bad idea. Teach the mice to eat grass or get a goat.
Thank you for your kind words. Yes, we have to keep in in the order they were posted or it will not work, as MK1 pointed out. I am through the first 100 pages.........

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 04, 2009, 06:42:31 AM

Quote from: electricme on March 03, 2009, 11:17:00 PM
@The NOP,
Sorry to hear you motherboard died.
If you still got it, take a good close look at the larger capacitors, if there is one or more with a bulging top, replace the cap/s they will probably be a parcial short.
If you see a cap leaking, replace it also.

That should fix er up.

Thanks for the tip, but i had already gone through that.
look like it is a chipset ic that is at fault.

@Pirate88179
great idea you had there with the schematic tread.
know that it have already helped someone, me. :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on March 04, 2009, 07:29:47 AM

@IST: Hey thanks a lot for that MK2 drawing there bud! :)
I had trouble sleeping last night so I decided to wind one,
I tried to follow Mark's instructions on that schematic from page
200 or so and wrapped two bifilar secondaries, one on each side,
12 turns up, 10 turns down, just like on that pic from MK1.
Then wrapped two single wire coils on either side as the primaries.
Looks like your pic so I'm hoping I did it right. ;)
Will hook it to the transistor etc later this evening, and see what I get.

@MK1: Thanks for your reply Mark. :)

QuoteI guess , you will have to try it , the mk series , are design to give a ac out put ,
by having the 2 coil at 180 from each other and the coil going up and down ,

Yes, that part I had figured out ;)

Quoteas for getting more , then in that is still not clear , if you would like to clear the confusion , i will help you to make one , if you like that .

Thanks for that offer bud. I just made an MK2 style ring last night and will try it tonight, but if I for some reason can't get it to work I'll give you a call. :)

QuoteBut traditional theory state that the current is equal in the coil that is with one prim and on secondary , but you can make many secondary they are all the same.

Yes. But does that not mean, according to standard stransformer theory, that the input from the primary is divided over the secondaries?
In other words, we can feed a primary 1V and have a secondary that puts out 100V, but the amps in the secondary should also be 1/100th of that of the
feed; now adding another secondary, that secondary will also show 100V, but now both secondaries should have 1/2 * 1/100th makes 1/200th of the amps...
So that the total power input still equals the total output?
That is exactly why I nagged IST just a few posts back; If there is no actual power gain but only voltage multiplication, then sure you can charge
batteries from the output but if they only pick up the same power as was put in (minus losses) then I wonder what use it is, really.
If the gain is in the ability to suck the last little remaining charges out of non-rechargeable batteries before you throw them away,
then I suppose that is a more energy efficient way of emptying batteries, and compared to just throwing the battery away when the
output drops below the norm that woudl of course be a good way to save energy. But that's just using batteries more efficiently,
and the impression I got from IST was that power gain was implied.

QuoteMy last mk2 light many neon for a button cell , that is with a regular jt circuit . The secondary are not connected to circuit , So i am real happy with results . My neon are rated at 120 ac.

Well I can't argue there, that is an impresive feat! :)

QuoteNow , lets not forget the other ways to get excess energy , like the back emf and tuned tank , to keep the battery going

Yeah, ok. The tuned tank is a little hazy still, not really seeing how that gets us excess energy, and the back emf that's another thing...
What exactly is so remarkable about back emf? From what I recall from the books, the "emf" phase is simply the phase in which
the magnetic field is built up or formed by the current as it starts to run through a coil. The back emf is simply the collapse of that
magnetic field. With a secondary, both phases induce a movement of electrons, and both phases are already used in every AC
transformer that uses rectifiers or diodes... So it seems to me that, if we first had a transformer which we build wrong so that
we neglected to use that back emf phase, and then later we add the back emf phase, then yes indeed the new version would
seem to produce excess output... But only because we used a flawed design before.
But hey, I may be wrong and overlooking something so please correct me if I'm off here. :)

Quote, i don't care much for battery running with gain , because to battery will need to be replaced in the circuit eventually , so not that interesting to me.

LOL yeah well I would prefer a batteryless version too. A closed loop self-powering JT that produces usefull output, preferably of the
230V AC variety with oh Idunno 300 Watts of power? That would be awesome.
But untill anyone manages to actually close the loop, make a JT self-run without batteries, and still manages to pull output
from the secondaries, I suppose the battery version is easier to develop...
And if we could make such a self-charger with a battery switching circuit, it'd still take what, 2500 mAh before the battery needs
to be replaced...
Besides, in theory we should be able to run a JT off a simple salt water "battery", a lemon-, vinegar-, or earth- battery, a "crystal radio" collector,
probably even just the potentials collectable from two steel rods stuck in the ground. If we can use that to produce output pulses that can
recharge a battery bank (like those used to store solar power), we can probably run several simultaneously too, and keep a battery bank
charged which can power home appliances (through an inverter).
Yes, we'd still be using batteries for storage, but still, the input would be cheap if not free.

And that's assuming we don't have any excess energy eh... with excess energy would be even neater ;)

On the banks subject, they are a bunch of thieving bastards! ;D there you go, I said it. :)
Have you seen the film "Zeitgeist"? Ok it does mix religion, politics, 911, the banking system, etc,
into one big conspiracy ball to bounce around, but there is a piece in it about the international
and in particular the US banking system that is apparently an eye-opener to many people.
It sort of explains how the entire US banking system including the Federal bank and the world bank
is designed to increase debt and magically conjure up money by means of creative bookkeeping.
In every other sector of society that is called fraud, in the banking world it is considered normal.

Also, does anyone notice how much money is being pumped into the clearly improperly organised
existing corporate industrial structure and how little is done to punish the guilty parties (read:
the bankers who knowingly and willingly traded worthless mortgages and stock for their own
financial gain, to the expense of just about everyone else) and how little is done to reform the
structure so that it doesn't happen again?
Also, most governments seem to think that pumping money into large corporations to keep their
workers employed a little longer before the company is forced to lay them off is a good thing,
and they seem to think that the middle class needs none of this financial backing...
Which is weird because we all know that a healthy economy and society needs a relatively
large middle class, but the support goes to the upper class while the middle class goes
bankrupt and the lower class goes unemployed. Didn't the people in our governments learn
that kind of stuff in school? You gotta wonder... ;)

@Cap-z-ro: got your bank emf joke but a bit late ;) Does that stand for "evil monetary fools"? ;D

@GeneralJim: I have a fairly effective anti-mouse device. It is propped up on a chair most of the
day but it switches on in the evening and hunts them down one by one.
It is called Fritz, the cat. I think it works quite well. ;)

kind regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gyulasun on March 04, 2009, 08:49:06 AM

@mikem_2au

Hi Mike,

Many thanks for your interesting results. However, may I kindly repeat my question on your method of measuring those DC input and output voltages and currents? I mean whether you use two meters at the same time: one voltage and one current meter?
For instance in your first post you wrote: "I started with 16 turns primary, 4 turns secondary which gave me 7vdc 12ma and 42ma draw from battery." Here you meant the 7V was measured across your load when your load consumed 12mA? And the 42mA at the input was measured when your load was drawing the 12mA?
The same question would go also to your measured data with your third coil tests you had referred to also in your first post here.
These measurements are important to clarify because this is the only way to avoid misunderstandings.

Regards, Gyula

Quote from: mikem_2au on March 02, 2009, 01:00:17 AM

just thought i would post some interesting results,

i started fresh with a different iron powder toroid.
i tuned this similar to the way described by Mk1 on page 306
but without a pickup coil and aiming for highest ma rather than volts

also, i wind the third winding with the same amount as turns as the primary,

16 turns primary - 4 turns secondary
11vdc 15.9ma

third winding 10uf cap from diode to emitter

16 turns 16.87vdc 22.34ma without cap
11.59vdc 39.2ma with cap

32 turns 23.6vdc 17.5ma without cap
11.3vdc 38.1ma with cap at this point i also get -> 4.12vac

48 turns 28.45vdc 17.26ma without cap
10.75vdc 33.6ma with cap -> 5.7vdc

i will be adding more turns tonight to see what happens.

i found it interesting the more turns i added the lower the vdc i got and the higher the vac.
i am going to have to find an online store where i can buy some better toroids to try this on.

must go read the past days post now.

mike..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on March 04, 2009, 08:55:03 AM

@all

I wish to say that my machine first lost internet connection, Then began saying when rebooted that the hard disk did not exist.
Then it began to sound a beep at regular intervals, after a while it began to sound a continuous beep and that was it for the machine.

It took me a long time to save the harddisk's information with another machine and to install another motherboard. I must mention here that for to get the internet working again was a real hard job. After I got the internet working I had to download the motherboard drivers and they were incomplete. The motherboard is a used motherboard I bougth long time ago on ebay.

I must now begin to read all the information that has been posted in all the threads I am following now and hope that my machine does not do the same thing again.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 04, 2009, 10:32:26 AM

LIKE I SAID MANY TIMES

this is my 7th computer..... :o :o :o

this has cost me a great deal not only the materials to build the hundreds of things i have .... the time ...

but it dosent matter ...... i will keep at it

keon1

let me ask you what will be when you charge a cap......... does this increase your AMPARAGE?!?!?!?!?!?!?

now

lets say i have 30 feeds .... from 2 dead aa batteries .... now what will be if i put 30 cam caps on my output .... then i used a switching device to systematically drain them .... but at a speed that THEY ARE ALWAYS FULLLLLLLLLLL HUMMMMMMMM

or if SOMEONE CAN EXPLAIN HOW AND WHY CAPS SELF DRAIN.....

AND WHAT CAPS WOULD BE THE BEST SUTIED FOR THIS ..... I WOULD EXPECT THE LITTLE GREEN CAPS WILL WORK FINE FOR THIS

the ones you find in a cfl driver.....

now also take note to MY OUTPUT FREQ...... LETS SAY I PUT IN TO MY COIL ... 1KHZ @1V

AND IM RETURNED 52KHZ @110VDC ... EVEN IF THE OUTPUT WAS ONLY 2 MILIAMPS TO LIGHT A NEON .... CUZ THE HIGH SPEED THERE IS AN INCREASE .............................................

PLUS X 4 OUTPUTS.... so what porpus does the cap serve..... does it transform the high freq to pure dc?!?!?!?!?!?!

if it does then ..... :P

LOL

we shall see.... ;)

IST!!

the way i see it ..........

i should be able to isolate the source compleatly from the out put except for the use of the input engery to make a magnetic feild ...

to do this you want to be able to light leds from your secondaries ... and the jt led should stay on......... i was able to do this ...

once this is achieved ... we then will need 2 secondaries .... for 1 full wave bridge rectifer .... and the leds should stay in place so you DONT PULL FROM THE BATTERY ON THE SECONDARIES...

YOU WILL PULL YOUR NEG FROM THE BATTERY FOR THE JT FLYBACK LED... ... BUT YOUR SECONDARIES ARE COMPLEATLY IDENPENDENT OF THE SOURCE ...... IF YOU USED THIS ANY OTHER WAY IT WILL ACT AS A TRANSFORMER FROM THE SOURCE ON THE OFF CYCLE ... THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THIS BUT IT WILL DRAIN BATTERIES ...

I DONT WANT TRANSFORMER ACTION .... I WANT THE FREEEEEEEEE STUFFFFFFFF 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 04, 2009, 12:32:11 PM

so i guess it is time to look inside the toroide.... ;) 8)

what happins on a micro scale ...

the electrons are converted to magnetics in the jt coils ... 180 deg from 1 another ... ok so the first coil gets it power the second is choked down .... so it flows slower through the windings ...

so in the toroide it flows both ways... neg and pos or n and s but as the first feild traveles around the ring in magnetic form ...it slams in to the choked coils traveling magnetic feild .... they cross.... and then is intrupted .... the colapse then happins ...

so it is a timeing thing ... hence varing the restance of the second coil.... changeing the freq....

when the colaps takes place ... it back flows out ..... to all that is there ..... ;)

then we rectify it cuz it is actually cold electricty

the rectifier is a flipper ... ;D cold to hot!!!! hummmmm

and caps love cold juce.... ;)

they are TRANSLATING DEVICES ;) SO IS A BATTERY BUT AT A COST....... ;)

ill save the rest for the next 400 pages ..... lol ;)

ist!

THIS IS A BUILD IT... SHOW IT .... EXPLAIN IT .... SHOW :P THEY USED TO CALL THIS SHOW N TELL..... 8)

lol DID YOU LIKE THE IST COMEDY/REALITY ACT ;D

DATA BOOM!! LOL

added a few pics of mk2 6pac

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 04, 2009, 01:39:51 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on March 04, 2009, 06:42:31 AM
Thanks for the tip, but i had already gone through that.
look like it is a chipset ic that is at fault.

@Pirate88179
great idea you had there with the schematic tread.
know that it have already helped someone, me. :)

TheNop:

Thank you, I appreciate knowing it has helped.

@ Jesus:

Sorry to hear about computer problems. Seems like there is a lot of that going around. Best of luck to you with it, I know it can be very hard sometimes.

@ IST:

I think your theory went over my head. I am going to have to go back and re read it. Thanks for posting it.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 04, 2009, 01:59:44 PM

if we want to advance this .... can some one look into useing a 9v battery dropping down the voltage... to 1.2 -.5 vdc ...

and in the process makeing more amprage available to the unit to switch hence increaseing out put ....

ist!

i may be able to find a few fets... ;) to do this .... key is to keep the spikes with in working range ... ;) so you dont start popping fets...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: flathunter on March 04, 2009, 02:39:27 PM

This is the same circuit as my other joule thief video. This time there is a secondary coil off the big toroid (which is still run in series with my mini toroid.). The secondary is connected directly to a CFL. I noticed that when I run the joule thief circuit, just the motor and LEDs work, but when i disconnect the battery the CFL flashes. I spose theres some back EMF that does this. I've tried disconnecting the motor and LEDs to see if the CFL will light continually, but to no avail - it doesnt even flash on disconnection. Anyone got any ideas on some modifications i could make to get the CFL to light continously on my 1 AA battery????

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5TSksBwE2g

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 04, 2009, 03:02:14 PM

@flathunter

where did you get that core...... that is huge ..... :o

i want 1 lol

but im cheep ...

you need high self inductance coil to get a nice hv kick from the colapse ... that will power the cfl

you get a small one from the motor windings.... ;)

you can add additinal CHOKE COILS... as you see fit to enhance this effect ....

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 04, 2009, 03:08:31 PM

@ ist

Good work ! looks real nice.

@koen

The current is the same in all the coils .

@flathunter

Nice video , great work !

@all

I said that in the end , sharing and success for all was my goal , i am happy to see it happening , we may have to fight to keep our pc running tho.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 04, 2009, 04:07:39 PM

@ flathunter

Quote from: flathunter on March 04, 2009, 02:39:27 PM
Anyone got any ideas on some modifications i could make to get the CFL to light continously on my 1 AA battery????

Why don't you make the slayer007 circuit?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 04, 2009, 04:32:21 PM

here is 1 more RAMMA TRICK ;D

1 buck..... IRON GARDEN WIRE .......................

then make a simple mk2 on it but you must TUNE TO THE CORE MATERIAL AS THIS IS NOT FEROITE...

after that SPEEKER WIRE ... MANY SHORT STRANDS...... or litz...... NOW IT SOUNDS LIKE A TPU :D

ist

;)

yep gonna you guessed it ..... BUILD 1 ;D 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 04, 2009, 04:56:49 PM

@ All:

Finally my shipment arrived! It had my neons so I can (hopefully) fire up my Bedini motor and also, five 48 volts fans so I can attempt to replicate Al's device. Plus, five ultraviolet leds for my other tube light experiments.

I have a question: I also ordered 2 panel mount voltmeters to build into my Bedini set-up to measure input drain and charging battery status. These are 2 x 2" square and were not expensive. I thought I ordered dc meters but I got ac volt meters. Is there any easy way to convert these little meters or am I better off to just use my 2 small multimeters instead? They are 0-180 volts so I thought that would be perfect for reading the bats on the Bedini. I would appreciate any input on this. Thanks guys....and Jeanna.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 04, 2009, 05:00:24 PM

I got the rest of my parts in today ........so it is time to get busy :)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
I have a couple of questions .

On most of the JT schems there are black dots on one end of the the windings.
I am pretty sure that they are to show winding direction or something but I wondered what the exact meaning of the dot is.

I have read a few times that the JT core becomes saturated , Is there a practical way to tell when the core reaches saturation ?
I think this is important because I am planning on working towards a mag amp type of JT.

I hope that someone can help with these questions ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 04, 2009, 05:00:43 PM

@all

Many people now start to get some juice from the air , ? well yes , the toroid is generating magnetic wave , you can pick them up on a radio , and with some foil , but also sends energy some light neon and led . Well now for people that tried to tell us no way in the beginning , told you!

Now do you get the pickup anthena on the tpu , well take your time !

Lets have fun , its not over .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64KIzB5cVHA&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAZI7pDJv5s&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMqVdCpho4g&feature=channel_page

I did not post all the example feel free to check all lidmotor and kubikop also slayer i don't remember is youtube aka

Thanks Jesus for his great help on this !

Now its getting serious , but why would magnetics be air born be careful the apple is coming .LoL Maybe to soon !

Its be cautious not to waist energy this time around , lets face it they don't show coil in schools anymore now lets learn it anyway!

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 04, 2009, 05:02:38 PM

Quote from: Koen1 on March 04, 2009, 07:29:47 AM
But does that not mean, according to standard stransformer theory, that the input from the primary is divided over the secondaries?
In other words, we can feed a primary 1V and have a secondary that puts out 100V, but the amps in the secondary should also be 1/100th of that of the
feed; now adding another secondary, that secondary will also show 100V, but now both secondaries should have 1/2 * 1/100th makes 1/200th of the amps...
So that the total power input still equals the total output?

that is true only if you put the coils in series.
what if you short one of the coil, will it change anything on the other coil(s) ? ;)

tuned tank can be compared to lasers.
by bouncing its light source between specially designed mirrors the light is amplify.

my opignon, on what IST is trying to explain, is that we can play with current(amps) time frame and a few other things.

ex: at 1 amp/second, for each 2 seconds, if you accumulate, you will have 2 amps.

sure, it is not usefull when viewing this in seconds, but in milliseconds you can do lots of thing when doubling the base volts/amps each 2 milliseconds.

the thing is that a cap does not take 1 second to discharge, even if there is 1 amp in it.
this is an other time frame change, you get 1 amp almost instantaneously.
that is a really really big amps kick.

inrush current and bemf, are always throwed away in main stream electronic.
there are a few exceptions tho, like flyback transformer that use the bemf.
using them instead of trying to get ride of them is one big part of the jt success.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on March 04, 2009, 05:07:16 PM

Quote from: xee2 on March 04, 2009, 04:07:39 PM
@ flathunter

Why don't you make the slayer007 circuit?

It will allso work better if you have a rectifier off the secondary coil and have a capacitor across it.

The light will stay brighter, It should keep around 300v on the cap when the lights on.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 04, 2009, 05:10:55 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on March 04, 2009, 05:00:24 PM
I got the rest of my parts in today ........so it is time to get busy :)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
I have a couple of questions .

On most of the JT schems there are black dots on one end of the the windings.
I am pretty sure that they are to show winding direction or something but I wondered what the exact meaning of the dot is.

I have read a few times that the JT core becomes saturated , Is there a practical way to tell when the core reaches saturation ?
I think this is important because I am planning on working towards a mag amp type of JT.

I hope that someone can help with these questions ..

Hi , welcome again ! Yep the dots show polarity , but it could be done in so many ways , usually means the coil input is North (positive side) the output is South (negative)

There is a magnetic amplifier book on this side , worth to have a look at , saturation all toroid are different and if no data , it needs to be tested , a scope would be helpful , i don't have one , so i can't help there , but get it to work first worry later ?
Someone will help for sure.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 04, 2009, 05:29:15 PM

@all

Mk8 first test data , 2n2222, 92 volts rectified X 16 . On a 1 inch green gem toroid , i will tune some more , but looks good , btw 2 layers thick.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 04, 2009, 05:37:57 PM

Jadaro,
I am sorry to hear about your ears. take your time and get better.

I am uploading a change to your drawing that represents my request to you.

I had a high permeability toroid which gave lousy results. I am impressed with the low amperage results you are seeing and I am curious about how the toroid itself is changing things on your circuit. (also how it compares to the high permeability toroid I used.)

Anyway, I hope this clears up what I am asking for. Please measure the amps draw and the volts and the original battery voltage as measured when you make the test.

Thank you,

OH and, I really do recommend that you try to wrap a few turns of another secondary through the center of this toroid and see what the lights do from that. (this means after you prove the circuit works with the light as you have it, pull it out and see about lighting it with the secondary ...)

@Gary,
Hi

Yes, those dots indicate that the coils are going in opposite directions. It happens when you twist the wires as described in the make a joule thief instructions. You don't need to decypher it.

It seems that it is what makes this little jewel work. ;) The self inductance that was the enemy of some (and which NT fixed with his pancake) is not at all the same problem here while the jt is making the ac out of the nearly dead battery.

jeanna

jadaro pic follows

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 04, 2009, 06:15:11 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on March 04, 2009, 01:59:44 PM

ist!

i may be able to find a few fets... ;) to do this .... key is to keep the spikes with in working range ... ;) so you dont start popping fets...

IST

I just got some MOSFETs from Electronic Goldmine 2N7000 I am going to try to get them to work in a JT soon.

http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/searchprods.asp

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 04, 2009, 06:25:56 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 04, 2009, 05:10:55 PM
Hi , welcome again ! Yep the dots show polarity , but it could be done in so many ways , usually means the coil input is North (positive side) the output is South (negative)

There is a magnetic amplifier book on this side , worth to have a look at , saturation all toroid are different and if no data , it needs to be tested , a scope would be helpful , i don't have one , so i can't help there , but get it to work first worry later ?
Someone will help for sure.

Mark

Thanks Mark

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 04, 2009, 06:31:28 PM

Quote from: jeanna on March 04, 2009, 05:37:57 PM

@Gary,
Hi

Yes, those dots indicate that the coils are going in opposite directions. It happens when you twist the wires as described in the make a joule thief instructions. You don't need to decypher it.

It seems that it is what makes this little jewel work. ;) The self inductance that was the enemy of some (and which NT fixed with his pancake) is not at all the same problem here while the jt is making the ac out of the nearly dead battery.

jeanna

Jeanna

Thanks for answering
:)

So my bifilar bi metal pancake coils might work for a JT .......right?

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 04, 2009, 06:40:01 PM

i would discharge the 30 freely filled caps to it ;)

then use what comes back ;D

ist!!

i could cut it down to 3 outputs if i want ..... ;)

imagine how fast 3 caps would charge ... with 30 feeds..... from 2 dead batteries ...

see where this goes...................

?

ist!!

any how back to right now the mk2 6 pac is all mounted ... i will wire it up next ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 04, 2009, 07:18:10 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on March 04, 2009, 06:31:28 PM

So my bifilar bi metal pancake coils might work for a JT .......right?

gary

Yes

I recommend making one joule thief in the way of the instructions on the evilmadscientist page - the makezine video. It comes up on youtube along with almost any joule thief page.

The reason is you will get more of its implications by making one with your hands than by thinking it through in your mind. It wants to teach itself, sort of...

A while ago someone here had disappointing results using bi metal in a joule thief. But this is what our old friend Nathan Stubblefield was up to. About that I have no doubt. So, I think it should be pursued more.

I sure am glad there are so many different people on this project. There are so many possibilities that need to be tried out. I am glad you are here and caught up too!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 04, 2009, 07:45:08 PM

@all

My idea on the Nathan Stubblefield , first the battery is made with the copper and iron coils the cotton to isolate the electrolyte from touching the copper directly like any battery , then you sit it in the electrolyte the third coil iron only is pulsed by the battery and since its iron its magnetic action is amplifying the output of the battery , like a core on the jt but on the outside. Ex ignition coil is reverse and self powered.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 04, 2009, 08:29:58 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 04, 2009, 07:45:08 PM
@all

My idea on the Nathan Stubblefield , first the battery is made with the copper and iron coils the cotton to isolate the electrolyte from touching the copper directly like any battery , then you sit it in the electrolyte the third coil iron only is pulsed by the battery and since its iron its magnetic action is amplifying the output of the battery , like a core on the jt but on the outside. Ex ignition coil is reverse and self powered.

Mark

MK An iron secondary? I don't remember seeing that before .

It does fit my theorys ....... I think that magnentic fields should be captured better by iron than by copper because the magnetic fields are attracted to the iron . I am going to play with these ideas once I have a little more experience with JTs

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 04, 2009, 08:35:05 PM

@ist, ..do you have time or do you have time? ..lol

@jeanna, I'll try this configuration, but I don't think that it will work. By adding in a secondary - do you mean remove the led and hook it up across yet another ( tertiary ) coil added into the mix?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 04, 2009, 08:45:39 PM

@jadaro2600

Jenna is taking some time to teach you , take the time to listen, its for your benefit .

@Gary

I think that since the first is a regular battery , copper to iron galvanic action , in a coil way to take the magnetic pulse from the other coil . The galvanic show has ac and dc on meters , so Dr we got a pulse send it to the outer coil and third one iron takes electricity but react magneticlly inducing more power in both galvanic coil , it feed it self.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 04, 2009, 08:49:54 PM

Quote from: jeanna on March 04, 2009, 07:18:10 PM
Yes

I recommend making one joule thief in the way of the instructions on the evilmadscientist page - the makezine video. It comes up on youtube along with almost any joule thief page.

The reason is you will get more of its implications by making one with your hands than by thinking it through in your mind. It wants to teach itself, sort of...

A while ago someone here had disappointing results using bi metal in a joule thief. But this is what our old friend Nathan Stubblefield was up to. About that I have no doubt. So, I think it should be pursued more.

I sure am glad there are so many different people on this project. There are so many possibilities that need to be tried out. I am glad you are here and caught up too!

jeanna

Jeanna

I am here but can't say I am caught up .

I made one JT a couple days ago .....only took a few tries to get it working .

Sense then I have tried quite a few times ....... nothing .

I agree that I should make a few " normal " JTs ......... I bought 5 black toroids ..... I plan on expermenting with iron wire cores ...... a little ......I have 6 rebar tie wire cores ready.
I understand that iron cores have not worked well for others .......but I am going to try a trick or 2
:)

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 04, 2009, 08:57:51 PM

@Jeanna,
Ok, so I redid the circuit in that config and the led goes out, and I strung a third coil into the circuit and used it to light the led, which does work, but tanking the led doesn't work in either case. Not in my circuit at least - i can put a small cap on the circuit, but doesn't seem to do much.

I may just need to go larger all together. Thanks for the tip about the tertiary coil. This is a 4.86k resistor i'm using. In the latter config, it's drawing 3.75ma.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 04, 2009, 09:00:08 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 04, 2009, 08:45:39 PM

@Gary

I think that since the first is a regular battery , copper to iron galvanic action , in a coil way to take the magnetic pulse from the other coil . The galvanic show has ac and dc on meters , so Dr we got a pulse send it to the outer coil and third one iron takes electricity but react magneticlly inducing more power in both galvanic coil , it feed it self.

Mk

I agree

I think that the back emf from the field of the secondary collapsing will be partly rectified by being attracted more to the iron than the copper ........

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 04, 2009, 11:17:11 PM

EDIT
see below for confusion here.

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 04, 2009, 08:57:51 PM
@Jeanna,
Ok, so I redid the circuit in that config and the led goes out, and I strung a third coil into the circuit and used it to light the led, which does work, but tanking the led doesn't work in either case. Not in my circuit at least - i can put a small cap on the circuit, but doesn't seem to do much.

I may just need to go larger all together. Thanks for the tip about the tertiary coil.

Very nice, Jadaro.

I also found that the basic light goes out. I was encouraged to not let it bother me by MK1 who said just pull it out.

This is true. That light that is drawn into the basic jtc takes full energy from the system, however the light produced by the secondary (you called it the tertiary) is a free ride. It is here that I got 30 leds to light for the same juice. I could have lit more. I ran out at 30 leds. (And I stopped clocking them at 12 hours and the battery still had plenty left.) This is a very surprising configuration and very exciting.

You have now started to show that the ferrite may not be necessary.

Earlier, we were discussing the importance of having the right kind of ferrite. Perhaps the right kind of ferrite is a copper wire! ;D

Thank you for doing this test. I appreciate it a lot.

I am not sure what you mean by tanking the led?? I meant to make a tank circuit at the base of the transistor to the coil, and not at all to the light. ??

I only put the cap into the drawing of yours because you had it nearby. Gadget used the resistor at the base as a variable resistor and took it to almost 20k. His cap was 68pF. These 2 ie the resistor and small cap seem to be tuners to this part of the system, He is the one who used them as I re-drew your drawing.

Thank you,

jeanna

edit
I almost forgot this cool part.

QuoteThis is a 4.86k resistor i'm using. In the latter config, it's drawing 3.75ma.

add another light -or 30 ;) - on your breadboard parallel to the first one and see if it isn't as bright. If it isn't add it in series.

Also, could you give me the turns count on all 3 coils, please?

thanks again,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on March 04, 2009, 11:31:58 PM

Hi All

Well I tinkered around with the transformer from the Fuji circuit instead of the toroid and it definitely has different properties see: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6933.msg161635#msg161635 , it can run a CFL and can light a neon on only one output wire! Don't those take like 80 -90 VAC to light? Anyway Jeanna you're right about the placement of components like the diode you mentioned where it has a decremental effect on the circuit, it's all about placement of components and tuning.

Edit: I have achieved lighting a neon with 1 wire before and it was because of RF so I was told, I kind of agree but why only 1 wire and still enough voltage to light the neon?

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 05, 2009, 12:09:48 AM

Quote from: jeanna on March 04, 2009, 11:17:11 PM
Very nice, Jadaro.

I also found that the basic light goes out. I was encouraged to not let it bother me by MK1 who said just pull it out.

This is true. That light that is drawn into the basic jtc takes full energy from the system, however the light produced by the secondary (you called it the tertiary) is a free ride. It is here that I got 30 leds to light for the same juice. I could have lit more. I ran out at 30 leds. (And I stopped clocking them at 12 hours and the battery still had plenty left.) This is a very surprising configuration and very exciting.

You have now started to show that the ferrite may not be necessary.

Earlier, we were discussing the importance of having the right kind of ferrite. Perhaps the right kind of ferrite is a copper wire! ;D

Thank you for doing this test. I appreciate it a lot.

I am not sure what you mean by tanking the led?? I meant to make a tank circuit at the base of the transistor to the coil, and not at all to the light. ??

I only put the cap into the drawing of yours because you had it nearby. Gadget used the resistor at the base as a variable resistor and took it to almost 20k. His cap was 68pF. These 2 ie the resistor and small cap seem to be tuners to this part of the system, He is the one who used them as I re-drew your drawing.

Thank you,

jeanna

edit
I almost forgot this cool part.
add another light -or 30 ;) - on your breadboard parallel to the first one and see if it isn't as bright. If it isn't add it in series.

Also, could you give me the turns count on all 3 coils, please?

thanks again,

jeanna

I stated in a previous post that the fluctuation in the copper toroid type would be purely mathematical based on current and wouldn't need to take into account variability in the ferrite ( paraphrasing, that is ). This just seems logical - to have the voltage collecting coil surround the current in such a way that the collapsing field yields a voltage and any current flowing in it induces the needed shut-off opposition current to create oscillations in the circuit.

Some of the earlier versions of my circuit did in fact use only copper wire ( http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg160711#msg160711 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg160711#msg160711) is one version of the circuit with copper only and this is the other http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg160678#msg160678 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg160678#msg160678) showing a closeup of that type of toroid. ). If you read down the page a little on the second link, I've got this toroid lighting LED's in different places.

The one I've tested at your request is using a ferrite core. I'll have to wind another toroid in order to fill your request - but happily - ...I'm apt for experimentation on this, it's the only circuit I seem to be able to get to work. I didn't count the number of turns on the most recent one, I just went by length - the current carrying wire is half as long as the two other wires, one which is freely wound around the toroid lighting the light and the other which is going to the collector.

If you look at these images, the circuit is different than the one most recently built. I will be making a new toroid - one with an inner 'loop' around which will be two other loops ( to test the most previously assembled setup without using ferrite ) If all goes well, I'll post my results - including the exact number of windings, wire length, etc. for base reference. I will be needing more LED's ...

Perhaps I misspoke - I meant tanking the resistor. I the most recently wired circuit, tanking the resistor had a negative effect - here is a photo of this device. Pin-outs on the toroid are hard to see, I'll avoid this in the future.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 05, 2009, 12:16:16 AM

@ Goat

Quote from: Goat on March 04, 2009, 11:31:58 PM
Edit: I have achieved lighting a neon with 1 wire before and it was because of RF so I was told, I kind of agree but why only 1 wire and still enough voltage to light the neon?

The Fuji transformer will also light a small fluorescent tube with one wire (but not very bright). This was posted previously in this thread.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 05, 2009, 12:21:13 AM

Oh my what a lot of confusion!

QuoteThe one I've tested at your request is using a ferrite core.

No, not a ferrite core at all!
I only wanted to see what your wound wire ring did. I will wait to hear and disregard my conclusions from before!

thanks for the quick clarification.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on March 05, 2009, 12:23:45 AM

@ xee2

Can we convert that 1 wire AC to DC to run LEDs? The battery I'm using to light the neon is really DEAD...LOL...

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 05, 2009, 12:38:38 AM

@ Goat

Quote from: Goat on March 05, 2009, 12:23:45 AM
Can we convert that 1 wire AC to DC to run LEDs? The battery I'm using to light the neon is really DEAD...LOL...

Yes. But you probably need good battery. RF energy goes through wire and returns by capacitive coupling to ground side of circuit through the air. How well it works depends on voltage and frequency of RF. Adding metal plate to unconnected end of diode and ground side of circuit will increase the capacitive coupling and improve performance. Diode will light with AC as well as DC. RF is just high frequency AC.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 05, 2009, 12:53:59 AM

Quote from: Goat on March 05, 2009, 12:23:45 AM
@ xee2

Can we convert that 1 wire AC to DC to run LEDs? The battery I'm using to light the neon is really DEAD...LOL...

Regards,
Paul

YES you can ... Look here! : http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6594.0 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6594.0) single wire transmission. what a perfect tie-in for you. :)

Quote from: jeanna on March 05, 2009, 12:21:13 AM
Oh my what a lot of confusion!

No, not a ferrite core at all!
I only wanted to see what your wound wire ring did. I will wait to hear and disregard my conclusions from before!

thanks for the quick clarification.

jeanna

np, sorry for any confusion - i forgot that you had read through some 100 pages of posts. I'll have to post those results tomorrow or sometime Friday.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: flathunter on March 05, 2009, 12:55:54 AM

Thanks lots everyone for your comments. :) I will be trying slayers circuit next I reckon (Thanks Xee2 and slayer), but it'll take a little time to rewind the core on my big toroid.

@Slayer. Does the CFL work better when there is a rectifier on the secondary???? I thought CFLs were made for AC, and so I didnt consider putting a bridge on the secondary....but perhaps this is the best way. I'll try wacking a bridge and a capacitor (how many V and Farads???...any recommendations??? I have a party pack at the moment ;)) tonight, befiore I rewind the big toroid.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 05, 2009, 01:27:39 AM

Speaking of one wire on the JT circuit.... here is a link to a video I did a while back lighting 100 LEDs using only one wire from the JT AA Fuji circuit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQpx86Eg03g

there is much more that needs to be explored here in this area. I did not use an AV plug nor did I use and earth ground. We need to test this using both.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on March 05, 2009, 03:04:18 AM

@ Pirate

After a lot of messing around with 1 wire outputs I've come to the conclusion that it's definitely RF, I've burned my fingers enough times when I temporarily shorted the output wires with my Big Fingers...LOL

It lights CFLs and Neons but I still haven't had any success lighting LED with any decent brightness. Like you showed in the video LEDs will light just not as much as a CFL from what I've seen as far as brightness.

When you were running hundreds of LEDs were you using 1 wire or both off the Fuji circuit?

The interesting part to me is the use of an off the shelf transistor, transformer, a variable cap and resistor and you get totally different effects than a toroid :) I find the basic circuit, as far as I've tried, relatively easy for everyone to experiment with as long as they can get a hold of the same transformer, that could be a problem but getting a hold of the right toroids are no easy feat either....

Anyways it's all very intersting oh and thanks for the schematics thread again, the chronological order works for me :)

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on March 05, 2009, 06:48:36 AM

@all
I've been a bit involved in other matters over the last few days (UPS's) so my presence here has suffered, but I have been thinking about what we are all doing and some ideas have been tumbling around in my head, (yep I got one of those things, fulla grey stuff on the inside and growin white hair on the outside lol)

@ist and those who are good at math, cause I'm dumb.

OK, this my 2 cents worth,
what we are trying to do is drive a JT with 1.2v or a 1.5v Battery.
This we have achieved in leeps and bounds.

Will this idea work, but first I present ist's quote below (thanks ist).
**************************************
hears a GREAT IDEA.......

stop doing it with miliamps

try amps!!! ....................

ist!!
*************************************

Method 1
OK, make a number of JT's, connect them all up i parallel, you would need a lot of them to get any usable output.

Method 2
Use the output of 1 JT, connect to the base of a 2n3055, or a BD139 (smaller transistor npn) the collector connected to the bottom of a big coil, the top of the coil connected to the (+) Pos of the 1.5v battery. The coil energises, when the base of the TR goes "hi", Then it collapses when the base goes "lo", the pulse we rectify, and put it back via diode to the battery.

I also see a problem, if the coil has too many turns of wire, it won't be able to energise properly, because it'l need more volts, so how many turns and what size wire should be used so it will work with 1 cell?

I know we have been trying to make a 1.5v cell last as long as possible, but I think if we trade off some grunt or amps for efficiency, (as ist suggestered) then we might begin to get somewhere.

If a NiCad celll is shorted, it can put out tremendous amps.

If the 2n3055 cannot switch on and off because it needs a higher voltage, then we have to find a different device to do it, or find a way to do it.
Mabe we need to use a smaller vibrator coil to switch more amps through a bigger coil?

I can see this is going to be a balancing act, between coil saturation, Tr switching, current and voltage avaliable and timing or frequency on to freq off, or in other words a mark space ratio.

Then again this might be pie in the sky!!!!!!! but I carn't help thinking that other OU devices have been made, but they all use higher voltage, no one is attempting to do this with just 1.2 or 1.5v

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on March 05, 2009, 10:33:42 AM

@IST: thanks for trying to make me see the light :)
but unfortunately your posts haven't clarified a thing for me...
What I make of it is that you seem to be saying that charging a cap
doesn't take any amps and so the amp draw on the primary
and battery connection will never increase when you pull a larger
voltage out of the secondary to charge the cap?

You also seem to be saying that high freq high voltage pulses
in combination with a capacitor and diode(s) produces a DC
output that is measurably higher than the input pulses fed to
the transformer primary.

Like I said before, I would like this to be true and want to believe you,
but have you really measured the exact power in vs out already?
So not just the volts and freq, but the amps too?

If this is true then can anyone else please confirm this, like Gadgetmall,
Jeus, Mark/MK1, electrime/Jim, anyone?

And if it is true then how come you, IST, with your uncanny ability to
whip circuits and coil contraptions together in the blink of an eye,
haven't turned your OU ouput device into a selfrunner yet?
Seems to me that if you're really getting out more watts than
you're putting in, you'd want to remove the input feed asap... right? ;)

Oh and the reason why I'm so sceptical is simply because I have not
observed any OU effects in the little experiments I have done so far
with my simple JT variations using one or two secondaries.
So far I simply see the JT direct output drop proportionally to the
increased load added to the output secondaries. This is exactly what
one would expect to see from a transformer with multiple secondaries.
Yes I can collect charge on caps on the secondaries. But I think
what I catch in the caps is lost in the JT, although I can't really be sure.
The only gain I can clearly see in my experiments so far is that we can
now do this with "empty" AA batteries.

I like your new show and tell variety hour ;D but I'm sorry to say
it is still just a jumble of exclamations and not a very clear story.
I'm sure you have a good point to make but could you please underline
it or rephrase it so it is more understandable?

@MK1: Well I finally made an attempt to the MK2 coil the other day,
and I tried it on a very basic JT last night, and...
... I got very little. I can light a single LED off each of the 4 secondary
coils but as soon as I hook up a second LED in series they refuse to
light.
I must have done something wrong... Now since you say you're getting the same
current in all secondaries, I'm going to try again but let me describe what I did
so you can point out where I went stupid. ;)
So, as the basic JT I use a simple 2N3904 hooked to a 1K resistor hooked to the
end of the secondary coil of the JT, which is connected on the other end to the
primary coil and the battery positive. The primary coil is hooked to the transistor
negative on its other end. Classic, basic JT.
For this MK2 I used a 4-wind primary coil for the base JT and another for the base
JT's secondary coil, which are wound at positions 12 and 6 o'clock on the ring core.
I used real fine wire for the extra "secondaries". Wire was folded over to get a bifilar,
then I used this bifilar wire to wrap two secondaries. Wound them like the old MK2 pic
said, so that's 12 windings one way, say from 8 to 10 o'clock, and 12 oppositely
from 4 to 2 o'clock, then turned the thing around and wrapped 10 windings back
from 10 to 8 o'clock and 10 from 2 to 4 o'clock. Then I wrapped a piece of tape around
it all to keep the wires in place, and I cut the bifilar ends to get a total of 4 secondaries,
two on the one side and two on the other side.
It is possible that I dropped a winding somewhere as I had to re-wind one of the secondaries
after it got tangled up, but that shouldn't really make very much of a difference, should it?

After this I hooked the 4-winding JT coils up to the transistor and battery, and I put LEDs
on the secondary terminals. I put two on, on in reverse of the other, so I can see if there
is any alternating current going on. There is none. I only get output in one direction.
The output of the secondaries is very weak too: one LED will light per secondary, but more
will not.
I can light more LEDs from a classic JT, or a classic with a single secondary...
So contrary to what I should be getting I am not seeing any high voltage nor
AC from the secondaries here...
Something clearly did not go as planned. Which is really frustrating because
I really want to see what all this talk about excess output is about but this stupid
thng doesn't do anything of the sort... :-[
First I thought it was the wires, that perhaps I had broken the flimsy wire or something,
but a quick test with a LED and a 3V battery shows all the wires are intact and connected
properly. So I am at a loss why this thing doesn't want to play.
If you have suggestions for troubleshooting, please put them forth.

I am completely confused now... :(

I guess I'll go wind a new core later today, try one with 2 base coils of 4 windings each,
and with 2 or 4 secondaries of 4 windings too.
If what IST says is true and there is simply ou output coming from caps+diodes connected
to the secondaries, it should be possible to hook a secondary or two to a cap via diodes
and on to the input via diodes again, and the cap + diodes should provide enough current
to power the JT. With output to spare from the other secondaries that would still light some LEDs.

@theNop:

Quotethat is true only if you put the coils in series.
what if you short one of the coil, will it change anything on the other coil(s) ?

Yes, in theory it would have a slight effect since there is still induction going on
in the shorted coil. If the resistance of this coil is smaller than that of the circuitry
connected to the non-shorted coil, then there will definately be current running through
the short, and this current uses some of the total power that was input by the primary coil.
But if you don't short the coil and leave it disconnected, there is no current path and
there will be a lot less inductive effect.
Not that it matters because we aren't talking about shorted or disconnected coils,
we're talking about a second secondary with a load, similar to the first secondary.
So that's simply two secondaries with the same load which equals one secondary
that is twice as long and has two loads attached... Or doesn't it? :)

Anyway, it is possible that the time frame thing is what IST was trying to say...
But then it is still not very clear... After all, doesn't the transformer concept
use the same principle? The energy put into the system during a relatively long
span is concentrated into a higher energy level over a shorter span, and this results
in what we can measure as relative voltage increase with amp decrease or vice versa...?
Isn't that exactly what I've been whining about these past couple of posts?
Or have I not had enough coffee yet and am I just being silly here? ;) :)

@All: Have been looking for HEP638 Germanium transistor as in the Fusion/MK/Jeanna
low power JT schematic, but these seem to have gone extinct. There's none to be
found anywhere, and I can't even find proper specs on that type. Without proper specs,
I can't figure out which ones are comparable and could be used instead.
Also have been looking for 1N34 Germanium diodes for use in an "energy from air"
aka "Tate Ambient Power Module" circuit to use as input source for a JT.
These 1N34s also seem to be very rare and expensive.
As replacements I am considering AA121, 1N60, D2E, or FO215 diodes. These
are also rare and expensive but at least I can find one or two on ebay.

Can anyone please offer some advice or suggestions on other replacement diodes
or transistor types, and on where to get them cheap?
Thanks!

Kind regards,
Koen

P.S. I just ran into a shop to buy some stuff, found this little device for sale:
it has the size and look of a plastic gas lighter, it takes 2 AAA batteries (1.2V),
and when powered it blinks a little LED and produces 5.15V output.
It comes with connectors to the most common brands of mobile phone,
and is sold as "emergency mobile phone/MP3 player charger" for around $5.
Now I'm not sure but this sounds like a sort of JT to me... ??
I got one and have 2 AAAs charging up now in order to test how much of the
batteries gets used. I suspect that it isn't really a true JT and that the gizmo
will stop functioning when the batteries get low, instead of actually draining the
batteries completely like a JT would.
@IST: hey, if they manage to sell these gizmos that probably aren't even able
to run off "dead" batteries, then you must be able to sell such a charger that
is able to run off "empty" batteries... Right? :) ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 05, 2009, 11:35:53 AM

well guys i dont need to prove a thing ;D

you do ...... ;)

lol

when it comes right down to it .... lol this is ou..........................

it is the kick.........

and if you care to go beond this .... ;D sure we can do that too...

i hear they still scrach there heads to why transistors amp things ;D

lol

harmonics!!
;)

anyhow ... keon1 MAYBE YOU NEED TO TUNE IT :o

DID YOU SEE MY PICTURE ...

i lite the jt led full bright and the 4 secondaries are 3/4 all at once .... this tells the whole tale .....

they are not lit from the hot engery supplyed ... but from the cold returning

transmitt in ordor to recieve ... tiz the way of the universe ... :)

let this be knowen THIS MUST BE TUNED MANY WAYS ;)

not just tuned as mk2 unit is ... it is 1 aspect ... of tuneing ...TUNE TO CORE MATERIAL .... ok then there is inductive tuneing ... then there is curcuit tuneing ... as GADGET HAS DONE ON THE FUGI...

then in to out tuneing ....

im sure i could find a few more ways it must be tuned ....

then we could go all the way... 369 mass to mass tuneing tooo...

i dont care ...... it is the kick that is it .... ;D plain and simple .... all ou devices use this kick ....... be it electrical or other ;)

like cavatition even resosnance ... teters on this KICK..... KICK = COLPLASE

IST!!

now im wireing .... then photo shoot and the cap test..... ;D

@koen1

@IST: hey, if they manage to sell these gizmos that probably aren't even able
to run off "dead" batteries, then you must be able to sell such a charger that
is able to run off "empty" batteries... Right? Smiley Wink

now that was a verry constructive .thought ;D ;D ;D

now you bring in to the mix potencials ... lol ;)

so im sure this will work!!!!!

works real well with caps charged with cold ... and 2 open ends..... ;)

i call it orbit!!

btw this is not new .... :)

nuttin new under the sun......

and diodes .... have resistance.... hummmmm i hear lowest common resistance diode is 100 ohm ..... a GOOD FRIEND OF MINE IS WORKING HARD ON A 1 OHM DIODE..... ;D :P

WHY!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

LOL

HIGH VOLT HIGH FREQ .... I TOLD HIM TO GET A TUBE ... ;D ;D 8)

100 OHM DIODES ARE FOUND IN COMPUTER POWER SUPPLYES....

as i have seen the higher the resistance .... the higher the rectified voltage... the lower the resistance of the diode ... the higher the amps lower the volts.....

i got work to do now l8rz!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on March 05, 2009, 01:15:28 PM

Okay IST, you say you don't have to prove a thing but I do...
Well, I'm trying to, but I'm getting zip.

It might help if you could describe exactly what I should do to make this work then...

You say "tune it". Ok.
How? Tell me, instead of telling me I need to relieve the symptoms but not telling me how?
Obviously if I knew how to fix it I would have tried to do so already.
Like I said before, this may all be clear to you but I don't have magic xray vision
so I can't see what is or is not tuned, I only see LEDs lighting up and my meter
showing a measurement.
So yeah, I understand that tuning is probably required to get this to work, but I
have no clue how to go about it. Sure, the type of core material must play a role there,
and so does the type and diameter of wire, and the voltage and amperage of the input
current, and the duration of the pulse, and then there is resonance tuning, and inductive
tuning, and circuit tuning, all of those things can be tuned. But how do I go about that?
Some of the things I can work out a little, but a little is not enough to tune anything properly.

Also, yes I understand that you are convinced that everything you're getting from
your secondaries is "cold current" or "radiant energy".
But can you tell me HOW you can be so sure? It's not the fact that you are sure
that it's RE that I question, my question there is HOW do you know for sure?

But that's all secondary to the main matter here.
So I'll just say it again for clarities sake:
I want to build a working JT-based setup that produces excess output like yours.
I want to try and use that to charge batteries.
I have been trying to get the same results using a JT with additional secondaries,
and so far I have not been able to get anything that looks like your output.
PLEASE give me some clear advice, possibly shcematic even, on how to
build and tune it so that I can get these results?

Clearly just telling me that the trick is in the kick and the tuning is not
enough, I don't know how that helps me to fix my circuit. I need some
more detailed descriptions to imitate what you are doing there.

Sorry for the questions, I know you're more of the building type than
the explaining type, but I'm starting to get really frustrated here...
... you keep posting exciting stuff and I can't seem to even get anything
of the sort going over here... :(

kind regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 05, 2009, 01:35:27 PM

Hi Koen1,

I will study the rest of your post, but when I got to the place where you said you had connected the secondary to the base resistor I could no longer concentrate.

The secondary is NOT connected to anything.

Even with the MK1, you just do the same jtc.

those 2 secondary wires are to be connected only to the led array.

I went through my january posts for a friend's convenience yesterday. I will post these as annotated links now. They are just so you can see the reference to the lights I got to shining from secondary wires which are otherwise unconnected to the circuit. Sometimes the pics help.

here is the list The pages are specific posts :

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.590 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.590)

tube lit with camera ckt NO secondary here - obviously
----------
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.955 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.955)

1st report of one turn secondary just words no pic
-------
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.959 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.959)

3 turns on 2dary 6 leds
------
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.965 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.965)

10 turns on secondary

15 leds
---------
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.1233 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.1233)

30 leds lit

jeanna

EDIT
Oh how annoying. It used to be that my browser took me to the exact place on the page if I had it in the URL. No longer. Anyway, If you look at the last number of the URL, you will know the number of the post, so scroll down to get there. eesh, sorry.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 05, 2009, 01:37:57 PM

ok

im sorry to make anyone angry no a goal of mine ...

i recomend a black toroide cuz i have always had secucess with them ... all diffrent shaps n sizes ... jt or mk1 style ... secondary it does not matter with the black ones i have seen any ways....

yellow suck!! lol but there diffrent yellows aswell ..

stick to black it has worked for me ...

now wind a mk2 on it .... i used 14 turn secondaries.... 7 each way x4 wires.... they are inter twined .... and close to the core ....

now you must tune it for your core .... ALL CORES ARE DIFFRENT ...

so you want to be able to get out of your coil what you desire ... when i did mine i went for voltage CUZ I WANTED TO CHARGE CAPS ....

i dont care bout the amprage .... it DOES NOT MATTER... SURE MORE THE BETTER BUT ... I DONT HAVE TO HAVE AMPRAGE ... WELL MUCH ANY WAYS ;) FOR THIS STYLE UNIT ...

to tune it you will wind your secondaries... I DID THIS WITH 1 SET TO FIND THE BEST WINDING CONFIG FOR MY CORE...

if you notice on my mk2 nano you see how i tuned it ... 2 output coils ... plus i work with how much space i have on the ring ...

my nano had 3 turns secondaries each putting out 15vdc plus the jt flyback ... so 3 outputs... 1 input .. my jt coils also had 3 turns...

this is what i found simple for out put for the hula hoops... to power 20 leds.. or more if i wanted ... i would simply wind another bifillar pickup coil ... then im up to 5 outputs @15vdc...

and if i used FINER WIRE ... WELL you get the idea.... ;)

so on my mk2 6pac coils... i used 7x7 and 5 turn jt as i ballanced it to gain more cuz im CHARGEING CAPS... THOSE PUT OUT 110VDC - 90VDC

THIS AINT EVEN THE CORRECT WAY....................................

but it will do for now....

ist!

it will get you where you want to be...... :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on March 05, 2009, 02:32:35 PM

Quote from: jeanna on March 05, 2009, 01:35:27 PM
Hi Koen1,

I will study the rest of your post, but when I got to the place where you said you had connected the secondary to the base resistor I could no longer concentrate.

The secondary is NOT connected to anything.

Hmm okay now you're having the same confusion as I had a while ago :)
when you guys refer to a secondary, you're talking about any additional coil that is wrapped around the basic JT.
But the JT itself consists of two coils around a core, of which only one coil is fed the input pulse.
This is basically a transformer with the primary being fed the input pulse and the secondary only
playing along in the output phase, an auto-transformer. When I say "the resistor connected to the
secondary of the JT" I am talking about this second coil that is always part of the basic JT and
always connected to the resistor on one side and the primary coil on the other.
So the JT's second coil, the secondary, is always connected otherwise the basic concept of
turning the input pulse into double its voltage would never happen.

It is the second "secondary", actually a third coil and not a second at all, that is wrapped around the first two and not
connected to them.

If we consider the JT to be a single primary coil, then this non-connected coil would be the secondary.
But I can't help but see the JT as a two coil setup and that makes the "secondary" the third coil
in my mind.

I hope that cleared up the confusion? :)

So yes I understand that the ouput part connected to the LEDs is not connected to the
basic JT circuit and that the "secondaries" are wrapped around the basic JT.

And I have done so, and I do get output when I wind it very basically with the basic JT
and one "secondary" (or third coil if you will) and when the secondary has all the LEDs
on it. That works, no problem.
But it is also very clear that when I do this, the original LED on the basic JT circuit,
the one that is in parallel with the transistor, that becomes quite a bit less bright.
That seems to indicate power drop in the JT while the secondary is obviously getting power,
and that seems to be exactly what you'd expect from a transformer.
So that's what's causing the confusion on the subject of output power: I don't see anything
out of the ordinary besides inductive coupling which is the basis of "wireless power",
but IST and MK1 (and others?) have been reporting huge voltages and accordingly large
DC output from their secondaries...

Thanks for the pointers to your experiences with secondaries! :)

Kind regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on March 05, 2009, 02:37:57 PM

@IST: Thank you for the advice and tips. :)
I shall ponder them and see if I can work it out a bit better now.

**edit**
My cores are dark grey ferrite, almost black. None of those bound
iron powder things, no funny colours, just the colour of ferrite.
I have a few types of wire, just ran out of one so now I mostly have
like 0.5mm switching wire and 0.1mm fine enameled wire left.

Okay so you tune the thing with the secondaries by... doing what??

Quoteto tune it you will wind your secondaries...

Still not getting it...
What must I look for, when is the secondary "tuned" to the core,
and how do I determine that?

Quoteif you notice on my mk2 nano you see how i tuned it ... 2 output coils ... plus i work with how much space i have on the ring ...

Yes, I see that you used two output coils, and I see that you say that it is tuned.
I do not see how you determine that it is tuned, I do not follow what exactly I must do with the coils and the space on the core
to get it tuned. Tuned to what? Usually "tuning" refers to resonant phenomena, as in that the input signal is in phase with
a secondary signal or something like that... but I don't follow how I can do this. It has something to do with the secondaries,
ok, good, but what, and how do I see when it is tuned or when I need to add or remove another winding, and what do I do with the
spacing, and all that...??

Quoteand if i used FINER WIRE ... WELL you get the idea....

Ehm... No? If you use finer wire, it will not conduct actual amps as well due to higher resistance,
but voltages will be fine... But does it add anything, really?
Or do you just mean to say that with finer wire we can wrap a lot more secondaries? Yeah, ok,
I follow that. ;)
**edit**

Don't get me wrong here; I am not angry with you at all.
I am just a bit frustrated with this setup that I can't get to do
what you seem to be getting it to do and I don't follow why
it doesn't want to.
I appreciate your input and advice a lot. Please don't think I do not.
:)

Regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 05, 2009, 02:59:26 PM

Koen,

Thanks for clearing that up. You are correct in the way you described this.

I would only like to add a couple of comments.

1- take out that led from the c-e in the transistor. I only use it there to prove I have not made a mistake in connecting up my circuit. This light takes the expected 20 to 30mA from the ckt and is not useful here.

2-My 30 led array was actually 10 in series but each of the 10 had 2 in parallel to that. I later made them all in parallel and I think they lit up fine using the MK1 or the hybrid.

I did a wee study about turns to lights and in my array I needed around 1 1/2 to 2 turns per light to make it bright. there was a stepwise increase in power with each turn. And I believe this changes with each ferrite core. - not sure though.

I found that the high permeability ferrite to be lousy when it came to making more power. (the switching matters)

I don't remember now what all the calculations were, but with too many secondary turns, it seemed that I actually lost power. It must be more voltage than I can use at the expense of the small amount of amps that I need.

Another tip just before I left, I learned that the secondary SHOULD be wound at least one time back over itself. So, the way MK's secondaries are wound up and then back down again is best, I think.

--
As to this being a transformer...
Yes, that is what it is. But at the same time it is the inverter that is making AC from the battery.
The secondary only works because the dc has been converted to ac. In a recursive way, it is the same wires doing both.

I just want to repeat for everyone, to let the basic jt be the main circuit, but let the secondary do ALL the work. This is where the free ride comes in.

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 05, 2009, 03:03:44 PM

Quote from: Koen1 on March 05, 2009, 02:32:35 PM
Hmm okay now you're having the same confusion as I had a while ago :)
when you guys refer to a secondary, you're talking about any additional coil that is wrapped around the basic JT.
But the JT itself consists of two coils around a core, of which only one coil is fed the input pulse.
This is basically a transformer with the primary being fed the input pulse and the secondary only
playing along in the output phase, an auto-transformer. When I say "the resistor connected to the
secondary of the JT" I am talking about this second coil that is always part of the basic JT and
always connected to the resistor on one side and the primary coil on the other.
So the JT's second coil, the secondary, is always connected otherwise the basic concept of
turning the input pulse into double its voltage would never happen.

It is the second "secondary", actually a third coil and not a second at all, that is wrapped around the first two and not
connected to them.

If we consider the JT to be a single primary coil, then this non-connected coil would be the secondary.
But I can't help but see the JT as a two coil setup and that makes the "secondary" the third coil
in my mind.

I hope that cleared up the confusion? :)

So yes I understand that the ouput part connected to the LEDs is not connected to the
basic JT circuit and that the "secondaries" are wrapped around the basic JT.

And I have done so, and I do get output when I wind it very basically with the basic JT
and one "secondary" (or third coil if you will) and when the secondary has all the LEDs
on it. That works, no problem.
But it is also very clear that when I do this, the original LED on the basic JT circuit,
the one that is in parallel with the transistor, that becomes quite a bit less bright.
That seems to indicate power drop in the JT while the secondary is obviously getting power,
and that seems to be exactly what you'd expect from a transformer.
So that's what's causing the confusion on the subject of output power: I don't see anything
out of the ordinary besides inductive coupling which is the basis of "wireless power",
but IST and MK1 (and others?) have been reporting huge voltages and accordingly large
DC output from their secondaries...

Thanks for the pointers to your experiences with secondaries! :)

Kind regards,
Koen

i have been confused 10 000 times in my path to learneing the way of the DEVICE OF 1000 STYLES.. :)

this has been no easy task ... but it has been a learning experience ... and i have learned ...THAT THE LEARNING NEVER ENDS ;)

i think the jt is fed constant power .... to both coils 1 is slowed down the other breaks the the curcuit or intrupts it ... ;) it is a plain old viberatior or a closed relay ... or a BUZZER :o

both coils make magic feilds... ;D i mean magnetic ....

the transformer action in my eyes only ocours when the unit is on when the unit is off the leds are lit ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

now this works both ways...

to get only the good stuff i think you really need half wave rectifers ... or leds ... litt as i have showen a few times....

then rectify it ... and cap it ... this will be compleatly idependent of the source as you take NOTHING FROM TRANSFORMER ACTION ...

i think for the out put secondary would be 2 coils 1 from each side common ground to a full wave rectifier ... common goes on the dc side.... and the other 2 wires on the ac side ... ;D ;D ;D ;D

WHAT WILL BE?!?!?!

IST!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 05, 2009, 03:13:58 PM

It is interesting you brought the amp/resistance from thin wire again, Koen,

I did a test for mk1 using his design that I had copied and measured the rectified volts and amp draw from different gauge wires used as secondaries. (This was very tedious, but) I am glad, because I found out that there was no real advantage to using the thicker wire.

This is nice to see because one can fit a lot more turns or separate secondaries in a narrow core with thin wire.

Thanks for asking, I had forgotten to mention that.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 05, 2009, 03:25:00 PM

i use thick bell wire ..... cuz

dammm im LAZY ;D

i have wound hundreds of thin wire coils ..... 8)

and i like to make quick tests... if it works ... it works.... lol ;)

so .... start thinking 369 after you get it wound properly ... ;D 8)

and mass TO mass so this means .... if your first jt coil is 3 your second will be 6 ... and the secondary or 3rd will be 9 ... do it any way you want ....

lol

same as my MY HEMF TRANNY ....... :) only loose the resistor sub it for a high self inductance winding ... 8) tuned by mass.. ;)

IST!!

but first tune to your core material ....

@Mk1 got any ramma garden wire ...

we should use it ... it is cheep...... everyone can get it........ and there is lots of room ;D it is IRON WIRE LAMANITED .... IT HAS TO WORK LOL

PLUS WE ARNT THAT HI A FREQ YET ANYWAYS... ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 05, 2009, 03:37:03 PM

@all

Stop the long post , i just woke up ! Everybody good today , actually i wanted to say thanks to you 2 , helping me now to show people , not easy , but i am glad , i took time for you 2.

@koen

First the jt coil, need to be tuned to your toroid ,and your results will be as good as your toroid.
make sure the led works in the regular jt way , then i can be removed , to stop the confusion on secondary coil i call it pickup coil.
Those pickups coils are only connected to the diode bridge , you need it to get the meter to read it properly .
Also i like my pc , don't care showing ou , bedini could show it without any problem and still doesn't the man is smart, and alive.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 05, 2009, 04:13:04 PM

Hi Mark,

I also want to repeat that the 2 jt wires with only a few turns at 180 are the working joule thief and must be connected so the mag field reverses.

Ist did a beautiful drawing, but this detail is not there. The jt wires appear to be unconnected, where in fact they must be twisted together as in any joule thief.

I realized this detail is rarely mentioned so I wanted to here.

thanks,

------

@MK1
When you get voltages like 100v or even 60 v rectified, have you also done other tests beyond the meter, to see how much is available? or what work it does?

I am curious. or is this the staying alive part?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 05, 2009, 04:22:22 PM

Quote from: jeanna on March 05, 2009, 04:13:04 PM
Hi Mark,

I also want to repeat that the 2 jt wires with only a few turns at 180 are the working joule thief and must be connected so the mag field reverses.

I will look at ist's drawing to be sure this detail is there.

I realized this detail is rarely mentioned so I wanted to here.

thanks,

------

@MK1
When you get voltages like 100v or even 60 v rectified, have you also done other tests beyond the meter, to see how much is available? or what work it does?

I am curious. or is this the staying alive part?

jeanna

the detail is there .... and this can be configured many ways

as in designing a task for it ... and then designing the ring acordingly ...

it goes both ways .... they can reverse or they can slam was it not called bucking config ...

agin this all depends on the units use...

ist!!

here is simple proof... ;D

a homopolar generator ... 2 speeker magnets ... and a alum disc... in a cordless drill ...... spin it ... with the magnets attracting ...

what is the result?!?!?! ill tell you ... voltage .1 1.5...pure dc ... ok now flip the magnets so they oppose each other ... and force them togather now you have a bucking configuration ... spinn the drill

what is the result?!?!?!?!

ill tell you agin ... 1.5 vdc 3 vdc ..... big amps .. 0 back torque ...

problem is to take the power off it ...

TESLA SOLVED THIS PROBLEM .. by sectioning the disk wich actually intrupts the flow and he harnesses the big kick

THANK YOU ....

IST!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 05, 2009, 04:51:19 PM

Hi Ist,

I only meant it is not in the drawing.

In the drawing the ends of the 2 little wires are short and facing out and there is no connection shown between them.

I am not finding fault with you, I just wanted to point it out for someone new to the joule thief.

sorry,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 05, 2009, 06:07:02 PM

Quote from: jeanna on March 05, 2009, 04:51:19 PM
Hi Ist,

I only meant it is not in the drawing.

In the drawing the ends of the 2 little wires are short and facing out and there is no connection shown between them.

I am not finding fault with you, I just wanted to point it out for someone new to the joule thief.

sorry,

jeanna

no need for sorrys ... :)

in the pic i made i show a finished wound pick up coil showing all ends at the top this means back wind them but properly ... ;)

i tryed to indicate this in all my mk2 coils as i used 2 diffrent colored wires for each winding

all is good

we will get er done yet ;D

ist

ill post the 6pac tonight it is almost compleatly finished ... ;D

ps .... i did not have to build the sectioned tesla copper disc to understand this simple concept ...

THIS IS THE TRUE...

we can pull out the old TESLA BIBLE if we need more proof ;D

lol

but people get pissed when i use my RED MARKER lol ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 05, 2009, 06:29:22 PM

Quote from: jeanna on March 05, 2009, 04:13:04 PM
Hi Mark,

I also want to repeat that the 2 jt wires with only a few turns at 180 are the working joule thief and must be connected so the mag field reverses.

Ist did a beautiful drawing, but this detail is not there. The jt wires appear to be unconnected, where in fact they must be twisted together as in any joule thief.

I realized this detail is rarely mentioned so I wanted to here.

thanks,

I did something sounding similar to what you describe - them being 180 to one another - I've been calling it a linear transformer because it's just two wires tightly twisted together without a toroid or any core.

@all, the latest edition of Nuts and Volts as a DC to DC converter which utilizes a a toroid in a similar fashion that the joule thief is built.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 05, 2009, 06:57:53 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 05, 2009, 06:29:22 PM
I did something sounding similar to what you describe - them being 180 to one another - I've been calling it a linear transformer because it's just two wires tightly twisted together without a toroid or any core.

@all, the latest edition of Nuts and Volts as a DC to DC converter which utilizes a a toroid in a similar fashion that the joule thief is built.

Egads words just confuse more than help.

Hi jadaro,
Did I see it in one of your pics?

When Mark made his MK1, he literally split the bifilar element of the joule thief and put the 2 parts at the opposite ends of the toroid. (His reason was to eliminate a dead or at least low voltage spot that happened at the mid-place)

Then he wound the pair of secondaries on either side of these wires. I just called these wires the joule thief wires.

When you make one of the MK series, you need to connect the plus end of one side of these joule thief wires to the minus end of the other side. I called it twist.

He called his pair of secondaries "pick up coils" to be less confusing.
---

Now, If I saw what you are talking about, it is a tightly twisted string of wire twisted like 2 ply twine. I expect this to have some effect and I am wondering if you have studied what?

The folks on Time chatter who make and use time machines use this kind of twist in their sonic resonator machines. They call it caduceus coil.(I don't think it is a good name but you will see the time reference if you search for it.) I think your name linear transformer sounds closer???

--

Do you agree that this thing described in nuts and volts is a dc to dc converter?
I wonder how, since the joule thief makes ac from the dc.
I wonder what they are trying to say?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on March 05, 2009, 07:02:07 PM

Ok guys, thanks for all the helpfull tips and good advice :)

I'm sorry for all the fuss, I shall shut up for a bit ;D and
just start all over. Whipe the breadboard, pick
a new core and wind again.
I'll keep it very simple this time; If I want to charge
some AAs I don't really need much volts anyway,
so I'll do 6 identical 5-turn coils, two opposing ones for
the basic JT and 4 Pickup coils. (thanks for that one Mike,
that gets rid of the confusion completely :))
If I can dig up some good diodes I'll put them on there,
but as a start I'l just use a few LEDs. See what I get
on my caps.
I can always connect two pickups on one side together in
series to see what happens... Transformer theory says
it'll double the voltage of one single pickup... but we'll see ;)

Suggestions as to what caps, diodes, and anything else
(# of turns on pickups, placing??? of pickups) are most welcome :)

Thanks again! :)

Regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 05, 2009, 07:13:17 PM

Quote from: Koen1 on March 05, 2009, 10:33:42 AM
@theNop: Yes, in theory it would have a slight effect since there is still induction going on
in the shorted coil. If the resistance of this coil is smaller than that of the circuitry
connected to the non-shorted coil, then there will definately be current running through
the short, and this current uses some of the total power that was input by the primary coil.
But if you don't short the coil and leave it disconnected, there is no current path and
there will be a lot less inductive effect.
Not that it matters because we aren't talking about shorted or disconnected coils,
we're talking about a second secondary with a load, similar to the first secondary.
So that's simply two secondaries with the same load which equals one secondary
that is twice as long and has two loads attached... Or doesn't it? :)

Anyway, it is possible that the time frame thing is what IST was trying to say...
But then it is still not very clear... After all, doesn't the transformer concept
use the same principle? The energy put into the system during a relatively long
span is concentrated into a higher energy level over a shorter span, and this results
in what we can measure as relative voltage increase with amp decrease or vice versa...?
Isn't that exactly what I've been whining about these past couple of posts?
Or have I not had enough coffee yet and am I just being silly here? ;) :)

what does a step up transformer do ?
it make volts higher at the detriment of amps.

what does happend if you put multiple coils, that step up all to same voltage, in parallel ?

put a resistor on one of the coil if you want instead of shorting it, it is the same.

about time frame, maybe an analogy will help understand it.
take 1 pound, lift it 1 foot high, you have apply xx joules of energy to lift it that high in xx millisecond.
now let it drop, it take x to hit the ground.

apply the same force on the same 1 pound for xx time 2
let it drop, it take xx time 2 to hit the ground.

there will be a difference when it will hit the ground...

with a cap, the discharge is instantanious, it can be compare to that 1 pound crushing deep into the ground as the velocity would be so high.

there is no excess energy at this point or is it ? ;)

@Goat
About the capacitive coupling when using only one wire.
it does not matter from where the electrons come from, simply add more capacitance will make the light brighter.
think of it as if you were adding a capacitor between the light leg and your other wire.
it will still draw on the battery.

@all
for those having problems with Gadget RC mod.
here something that will be helpfull to you when knowing that the frequency at witch the jt work is making a lots of difference, the on time as well as the off.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RLC_circuit

i had fairly good results with that mod, but still, not good enough for my liking.
it just need a bit more tuning and better transistors then what i have available right now.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 05, 2009, 07:16:34 PM

Quote from: jeanna on March 05, 2009, 06:57:53 PM
Egads words just confuse more than help.

Hi jadaro,
Did I see it in one of your pics?

...

The folks on Time chatter who make and use time machines use this kind of twist in their sonic resonator machines. They call it caduceus coil.(I don't think it is a good name but you will see the time reference if you search for it.) I think your name linear transformer sounds closer???

...

Do you agree that this thing described in nuts and volts is a dc to dc converter?
I wonder how, since the joule thief makes ac from the dc.
I wonder what they are trying to say?

thank you,

jeanna

The linear transformer I used is described here - with picture. http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg160975#msg160975 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg160975#msg160975) It about 16 inches long strand of two-ply wire in red. Actually, this setup is very strange to me, so I'll have to redo it. This is actually a strobe circuit.

Calling it a caduceus coil is probably a misnomer. This would imply that they are actually connected at one end - these run opposite direction - it would be more like a double Ouroboros ...like Auryn from the never ending story. :) :P

The nuts and volts dc to dc converter is a complicated junker. too many circuit components to be even remotely efficient. There is quite a bit of math and technical information about how to choose a ferrite core and how many windings are needed, etc.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 05, 2009, 07:25:00 PM

your answer is trial and error

we call this tuneing it ;D

ist!!

when you find the best for your core you do what you like with it ....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on March 05, 2009, 07:38:39 PM

@Jeanna,

Yes when you posted as shown below

I just want to repeat for everyone, to let the basic jt be the main circuit, but let the secondary do ALL the work. This is where the free ride comes in.

Thank you,

jeanna

@ist,
you mentioned several posts back, let the amps do the work.

I also have mentioned several times, that we need Grunt or amps to get some sort of decient output, anyway, its time to develop the JT further so those of us who want to charge up a 12v battery can do so.

Thats right, let the JT part of the circuit, create the frequencies to drive the magnetic fields in the torid.
But, I'm beginning to realise, if the output frequencies to drive the torid are not strong enough to produce a strong magnetic field, then all you will get is a weak magnetic field (ampliptude) rotating in the torid.

So we also need to strengthin this by putting some grunt (higher than Milliamps) somewhere between the JT and the torid.

I propose the JT is used to create the frequencies, as we have been doing all this time, but adding a GRUNT/POWER circuit, within the JT circuit.

When the JT is made-wound, include a 3rd wire, so it is a Bi-filiar wound device.

The 3rd wire has a direct connection to the (+) positave rail, (battery) which is switched by a [current] transister (a 2N3055 needs a higher voltage to switch on) so it could not be used at this present time, perhapse using 3 geranium transisters in parallel should do it.
The other end of the coil (3rd bi-filar that is) connects to the collectors, the emitters to the (-) Negative rail.

It is a known thing, that a transistor when switched hard on, produces little heat so it should work OK.

The 3 bases of the 3 transistors are turned on by the output taken from the (Emitter) of the JT itself.

The way I see this, the stronger magnetic field inside the torid, will produce a stronger collapse of the magnetic field, which produces a stronger output in any secondary wrapped around the torid.

When Iooking at the katering ignition system, there is a switching of 12v DC AMPS to saturate the primary coil, the "switch, is the ignition points" they switch the full current avaliable to the primary coil.
If the secondary coil was made differently (instead of 1 single coil) but had several much smaller coils, and all coils connected in parallel, the output voltage would be reduced, but its amps would be the sum of the output secondaries.

The photo is just a circuit to show only just the 3rd bifilar coil, how this works.
Sw1 is opened, no voltage or current flows.
If Sw1 is closed, voltage and current flows, the coil is energised, a magnetic field is produced.
When Sw1 is opened, the magnetic field collapses.

The more current or grunt that can be applied to the coil, the stronger the magnetic field becomes, the more energy is avaliable from the collapsing magnetic field when the switch is opened.
(Of corse you all know this stuff)

Where Sw1 is, the JT output is branched off at the emitter of the transister, to drive the base of the transistor/s as seen here at point B.
A 250ohm - 1000 ohm resistor between JT and 3rd coil transistors could be added.

If the emf of the 3rd coil collapsing is too much then a diode placed between C and E might have to be included.

I might have to redraw the circuit, duh.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 05, 2009, 07:55:19 PM

;D 8)

jim what can i say

bingo ;)

ist!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 05, 2009, 07:58:49 PM

@all

I finally sorted all the 16 pickups ends so 32 i color coded them.i will need insulation on those tho. But for now i get anything between 115 and 80 rectified dc volts per coil , so 16 times. my 120 volts ac neon only need on each to work real nice , i don't like maths but 16 neon on a button cell , sounds nice, but it could be better . well i guess i will try a cfl soon since i have 2 sides on that toroid i should be connecting both sides of the cfl. :o Nothing new here , run along !

Mark

Btw on one 1 inch core and there is room for more coils.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 05, 2009, 08:28:13 PM

holy crap.... lol 16 neons on a BUTTON CELL ... LOL

I LOVE IT

;D

JIM I MADE MENTION BOUT 6 MONTHS AGO ABOUT THE CURRENT AVABIL FROM A AA BATTERY LOL

1 of the previous investors i demo to said a friend of his was able to get almost 26 amps at ALMOST A DEAD SHORT FROM A AA :)

hummmmmm

lol

;)

can we do both tho lol we all have 2 hands.... i bet TRICITY has tooo!! ...

you could visualize this like this ... lol ;D

look at your 2 hands ... you can move them up or down .... ;)

why is tricity any diffrent

in fact .... ;) lol

i want 1000 pages in this thred ... ;D for the 1000 styles lol ;)

dont for get the 10 000 posibilitys along the wey lol ;) ;D

ist!!

gotta save a few aces for l8r ya know lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 05, 2009, 08:37:02 PM

@electricme
i suggest using a separate power source for feeding the 2N3055.
high amps won't be gentle to your jt transistor, it won't be gentle to your 2N3055 neither.

to see what i mean, take a basic jt, but change the led location.

put the led, with right polarity, in parallel with the battery.
also try in series, the led hook to one side the battery, + and/or - side, then to the wire that would normally be hooked to the battery.
polarity of the led will matter.

it will be easyer to protect the 2N3055 base when using a separate power source.
also this way the 2N3055 will not interfere with the jt inner working.

EDIT
i forgot.
when testing in series, you will need a switch to short the led intermitently, rapidly.
a jumper can be used too.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 05, 2009, 08:41:00 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on March 05, 2009, 08:37:02 PM
@electricme
i suggest using a separate power source for feeding the 2N3055.
high amps won't be gentle to your jt transistor, it won't be gentle to your 2N3055 neither.

to see what i mean, take a basic jt, but change the led location.

put the led, with right polarity, in parallel with the battery.
also try in series, the led hook to one side the battery, + and/or - side, then to the wire that would normally be hooked to the battery.
polarity of the led will matter.

it will be easyer to protect the 2N3055 base when using a separate power source.
also this way the 2N3055 will not interfere with the jt inner working.

If the location of the 3dr coil and timing is taken under consideration , it could be done , but the jt wouldn't be needed anymore , but electricity is only used to create a mag field , i well paced magnet could also do.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 05, 2009, 08:42:24 PM

i just hate to clutter this thred but ;D lol

heres a DA TA BOOM!!! LOL

use the out of 110vdc lol ;) :)

ok really im done guys ... :)

ist!

ok GUY STOP SETTING ME OFF LOL !! I MEAN IT ...

I HAVE DONE THIS ... long time ago ...

mk1 your right ....... i was able to place a magnet permantly on the coil ...... and when i applyed another there

the rest is history 8) :o

lets just say it came ALIVE .. ;D LOL ... THIS IS MY CAP CHARGER ...... I DID THIS B4 I KNEW WHAT I HAD ...... IT IS ALL OVER THIS SITE ... EXCPT HOW IT IS DONE .... ;)

this song fits.....

do listen to it ;) 8)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQgmf3QSW8E

you could tell how we felt from looks on our face ....... :o

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 05, 2009, 08:50:46 PM

@ist

Do you mean Lorrie Matchett style , or just of the main one plug per house deal.

http://www.disclose.tv/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2280&view=unread#unread

In this life we are defined by the way we make money , lets do it for all, and all for one !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 05, 2009, 09:13:18 PM

@jeanna

I built another toroid of copper, as I said earlier and I can't get it to work at all.

I'm not sure what to do about the copper toroid - only the one I have pictured is working. The latest winding was a fail. This incorporated a coil, with a twisted pair wrapped around it.

Just to make sure my transistor worked, I built another linear transformer, and replaced my resistor up front with an LED and it lights up. I've included a diagram of this circuit. It's component-simple. The linear transformer is 10 inches long - 26 gage wire - just a large free standing loop ( it's stiff enough to stand up and not fall over ).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on March 05, 2009, 09:29:08 PM

@Mk1
Yes the JT would not need to be used, for instance, drive a rotary contact switch with a 1.5v toy motor, let the conuncator switch the coil in and out, the coil energises and de energises depending where the position of the comunitator is at the time.
But it is a bit more difficult controling the Mark Space ratio, but it is possible. ;D

However, the JT is the timing electronics to do this. ;)

@ ist
My friend, are you alright? :o you seem extreamly excited today,,,,, 8) maby I have discovered something you are happy about? lol ;D ;D ;D
Yes BIG AMPERAGE can be GOT outa a 1.2volt NiCad battery, Heeps and Heeps, just short the cell out, watch out for the pinkies if you hold the bare wire between your fingers ha ha. ;D

I must buy a battery charger for the meter itself at the local scrap yard and try this again, fun fun fun time comeing up chaps. :)

arrrrrh kaboom, it vill verk, velly goot, den ve ave mooooor powerrrrr, den vee no vot to dooo wiff it?. ya, make it vork.

jim

(abosulutly crackers to day lol) :P

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 05, 2009, 09:42:05 PM

http://www.scribd.com/doc/6907836/thetpu

http://www.scribd.com/doc/6907813/steven-mark?ref=Sex%C5%9Ehop.Com

http://www.scribd.com/doc/95105/The-Hendershot-Motor-Mystery

http://www.scribd.com/doc/6905208/endgame

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 05, 2009, 09:49:04 PM

@ jadaro2600

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 05, 2009, 09:13:18 PM
I built another toroid of copper, as I said earlier and I can't get it to work at all.

If it worked before it should work now. Have you tried reversing the connections on one of the transformer wires? As you pointed out, the currents needs to be flowing in opposite directions in the coils. It is not easy to understand which way the currents are flowing so reversing one set of leads is worth a test.

EDIT: Also, with the diode added, you will need a battery voltage of about 1.5 volts to get the transistor to turn on.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 05, 2009, 09:59:52 PM

@jadaro,
In this drawing there is no resistor at the base of the transistor. In my understanding this resistor is necessary to control the number of times the transistor turns on and off.

@General Jim and Ist,

I am glad to see an understanding arising about the 2 different interests in the use of a joule thief.

Now that the fuji ckt is sequestered and doing fine there, we can see we really have basically 2 plans among us.

@all,
Please let me say here that I think IMHO that everyone should be pursuing the direction they find most delightful.

That said...

I am for doing something with low amps, and doing something with that once achieved. I have no real interest in getting a big amp draw.

I am interested in high frequency low amps and exploring those possibilities.

more later...

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 05, 2009, 10:26:11 PM

Quote from: xee2 on March 05, 2009, 09:49:04 PM
@ jadaro2600

If it worked before it should work now. Have you tried reversing the connections on one of the transformer wires? As you pointed out, the currents needs to be flowing in opposite directions in the coils. It is not easy to understand which way the currents are flowing so reversing one set of leads is worth a test.

EDIT: Also, with the diode added, you will need a battery voltage of about 1.5 volts to get the transistor to turn on.

I tried this - apparently I need a finer gage wire in the primary - there seems to be only a weak mag field. THe issue is, it's a new coil, so the design is different. THe other toroid works, it's just a weak effect as well.

@jeanna,
That circuit posted works - just not with my most recent torroid. It may be a broken circuit. Nothing seems to be going well today with this.

@all,

Can any of you recommend a transistor with a very low activation voltage?

Wasn't someone thinking of replacing the transistor with a diode? ..maybe a Schottky or a Zener? or some combination?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 05, 2009, 10:29:30 PM

OMG MK1

WE ARE ALL IN THIS TOGATHER .....

i bet you had a previous nik ....

ist

8) :o

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 05, 2009, 10:36:05 PM

@jeanna

You can replace the jt regular resistor with a diode , i have tried many they all work, the pickups still works. i don't really think the transistor needs to be removed for lowering consumption since a transistor is basically 2 diodes. The reason for removing it would be to get the freq stable at different voltages , that would give us more to work with, helping at lower bat to keep speed therefor increasing run time.

But i did not make any amp draw test , you are so good at it, so you can try a diode to replace the 1 k resistor .

Mark

We all get the instruction but the difference is what we make of it , and the heart will determine that.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 05, 2009, 11:11:36 PM

Hi Mark,

First, I think I must have said something poorly.

I think the transistor with its resistor is the best way to keep the amp draw low. I think if you remove the transistor the draw will go up.

I understand a transistor is basically 2 diodes (or maybe 3) so a single diode will do something.

But what I do not understand is why I would use another diode to control the base and therefore the frequency. I don't understand what makes an extra diode at the base better than a resistor or a resistor and cap.

I guess the most basic question I have here is what is it in the diode action that would make it vary with the voltage and allow the same frequency be available to the secondary with varying voltage?

I hope I expressed my question clearly!

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 05, 2009, 11:19:14 PM

@jeanna

All i am saying is it works try for your self , replace the resistor with diode you can check the drawing on the circuit , it may be a way to save some energy lost in the resistor , I know it works , how good is it i don't know.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 05, 2009, 11:33:33 PM

My configurations are far from normal. :P The intent is personal, however, so I wind up redrawing over and over again.

The idea isn't to replace the transistor. I read about these spacistors for higher frequency, but I think it would be pointless given I can't measure anything over 10mhz.

Anyway - I bridged the collector across both windings to the front of the coil with and LED and got it to light as well. What's interesting about all of these configurations is that they light the LED. This may be due to the fact that an LED has capacitance.

I think ist's or mk1's circuits are probably more refined --well, they are more refined than mine.

My meddeling has been for the purposes of understanding electricity and oscillators.

On second thought, the idea of replacing the transistor with a diode array of some sort seems silly now.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 06, 2009, 12:17:08 AM

Hello all:

I just got back from a long and boring surveillance. I will continue to update the schematic topic as soon as I can. I see now that there are about 5 more pages on here and I only updated 10 last night. I may never be caught up. Please, everyone, keep up your great work and sharing of this work. Thank you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 06, 2009, 12:29:13 AM

so who is READY!?!?!?!

FOR WHAT YOU ASK NOW LOL ;D

BUT ...............THE IST JT HHO WATER CAP DUH!!!

DID SOME ONE SAY FLUX CAP ;)

LOL

IST!

well i gotta do something with this nice voltage supply ... and all those cam caps ... ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgYPHNUqI6A

NOW COME ON I GOTTA TO BE ABLE TO DO SOMETHING WITH THIS UNIT LOL 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 06, 2009, 12:32:44 AM

http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/18810/Leedskalnin_generator_config/

http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/18809/Ed_Leedskalnin_flywheel/

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dodoshlodo on March 06, 2009, 03:38:05 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on November 20, 2008, 03:07:58 AM
Can anyone of you electronics guys answer a question for me concerning the Joule Thief? OK my question is this:
The plans I have call for a 1k resistor. From everything I have learned in electronics thus far, resistors limit the flow and dissipate overage as heat. This seems wasteful to me since the idea of this device is to improve efficiency, as in use all or most of the available energy in a battery or similar system. I am wondering why the resistor is needed? If it gets "warm" at all it is wasting power correct? Is this required to protect the transistor?

I would really appreciate any input here as this is my first Joule Thief. I know they have been around a while and I have a pretty good idea on how they work, at least in relation to the lighting of LEDs. I am also going to experiment with these using supercaps as the power source both with, and without batteries. This will all be tied into my work with earth batteries from which I can already light an LED.

If I need the resistor to protect the transistor, then fine, that's the way it is. It just seems a little counter intuitive from my limited electronics knowledge at this point. Thank you.
Bill

Hi Bill,

The resistor is crucial for a JT to work. It is required to get each coil to fire into each other setting up the oscillations. The higher the resistance the higher the frequency the lower the Amp draw... So we want the resistance.
I just got my JT running a large 40Watt Fluoro Tube on 2xAA's!

Im new to this forum so i thought I'd show u guys my JT's so far (not including the big Fluoro Tube one - havent made a vid yet)

Ive been able to recover a completely dead battery with my JT - a battery that wouldnt accept a charge from a conventional charger:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFW1d5G6NnM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFW1d5G6NnM)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWq2GNpbU_I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWq2GNpbU_I)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlfAcMGwfsM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlfAcMGwfsM)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIdohgylDTM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIdohgylDTM)

-shlodo

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 06, 2009, 03:48:11 AM

@Dodoshlodo,

Welcome , Nice vids , and editing , even astral hendrix , great work.

Thank for sharing with us !

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 06, 2009, 04:42:19 AM

@all

real important , for understanding the jt

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6ooNR39xxc&feature=channel_page

There are 4 to watch , good night!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 06, 2009, 05:30:50 AM

@jeanna,

I got the latest toroid to work, however, placing a tertiary coil on the toroid yields no results - no lighting of an LED of a freely wound coil. At any rate, this particular coil isn't boosting voltage very well at all and it's drawing 32ma just to light a LED - so it's a no go.

But I'll keep trying. The way my toroids are wound is primary coil is counter clockwise with secondary wound top-over and in and back around with an over-all direction being clockwise. Magnetic fields are at 90 degrees to one another - so, generally speaking, they're probably half as efficient as they could be.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dodoshlodo on March 06, 2009, 05:56:30 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 06, 2009, 05:30:50 AM
@jeanna,

I got the latest toroid to work, however, placing a tertiary coil on the toroid yields no results - no lighting of an LED of a freely wound coil. At any rate, this particular coil isn't boosting voltage very well at all and it's drawing 32ma just to light a LED - so it's a no go.

But I'll keep trying. The way my toroids are wound is primary coil is counter clockwise with secondary wound top-over and in and back around with an over-all direction being clockwise. Magnetic fields are at 90 degrees to one another - so, generally speaking, they're probably half as efficient as they could be.

The 2 wires must be wound together to work, not one over the top.

Heres my latest video of 2xAA running a 40Watt Neon Tube with a hand wound core. It has 30 turns for the 2 JT coils and a 3rd coil with 530 turns
enjoi:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJgb6tZWlP0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJgb6tZWlP0)

-shlodo

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 06, 2009, 06:35:28 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on March 06, 2009, 12:29:13 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgYPHNUqI6A

now that is what i called crushing deep into ground. ;)

how long does it currently take you to fill those caps ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 06, 2009, 09:38:23 AM

sorry bro that was not my work but i intend to do this... 8)

i dont expect it will take long to charge them but im thinking 100 v is my limit ... as this is what my rings put out constant ...

i dont want the caps to compound .... meaning i want them to fill to there value at most then i will drain them ...

i do not want to keep filling the caps to the point of overfull ... so far i see with the mk2 it will only charge the caps .. to the value of the output ...

i in the past have been able to over charge big caps with ease .... i hear they make a big boom when the go off cuz they were over charged ...

lets get rid of this problem .... 8)

ist!!

i will be chargeing cam caps today ...

from dead aa batteries...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 06, 2009, 11:44:40 AM

@ dodoshlodo

Thanks for your videos. Can you provide any information on the current flow from the battery for the large fluorescent tube? Will the tube light from 1.5 volts? What is the diameter of your toroid? Your seem to be getting performance similar to slayer007 with only one transistor - great work.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 06, 2009, 12:09:58 PM

here is a demo video i made of the mk2 coil ....

from last weekend ...

not done with my cam ... hence the poor audio quality ...

its all good...

ist!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iL1_4rbySa8

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 06, 2009, 01:08:13 PM

Quote from: dodoshlodo on March 06, 2009, 05:56:30 AM
The 2 wires must be wound together to work, not one over the top.

Heres my latest video of 2xAA running a 40Watt Neon Tube with a hand wound core. It has 30 turns for the 2 JT coils and a 3rd coil with 530 turns
enjoi:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJgb6tZWlP0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJgb6tZWlP0)

-shlodo

...and...

Quote...The way my toroids are wound is primary coil is counter clockwise with secondary wound top-over and in and back around with an over-all direction being clockwise.

The primary coil is in place of the ferrite toroid. The secondary coil is wound top-over, inside the toroid, then out and back around with winding going around the toroid in an overall clockwise motion.

You seem to have wound your primary and secondary that same way I wind my secondary. Do you see? Our toroids are two of different designs.

I have no access to ferrite toroids.

@ist, nice video

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 06, 2009, 01:25:35 PM

and now a few pics

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: flathunter on March 06, 2009, 01:40:00 PM

Quote from: dodoshlodo on March 06, 2009, 05:56:30 AM
The 2 wires must be wound together to work, not one over the top.

Heres my latest video of 2xAA running a 40Watt Neon Tube with a hand wound core. It has 30 turns for the 2 JT coils and a 3rd coil with 530 turns
enjoi:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJgb6tZWlP0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJgb6tZWlP0)

-shlodo

Great Video, Great Music, and Great Skills.... :o

Commendations and thanks for sharing ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 06, 2009, 01:57:24 PM

@dodoshlodo,
welcome to this great thread. I like the way you built your ckt.

@MK1
I will indeed try a diode and see what it does.

@Jadaro,
I was going through my list of science items this morning and I came across the original joule thief circuit where Kadarov SP? put the resistor just where you did. hmm.

I guess the next thing before giving up on a copper wound core, is to wind the outer part in the bifilar way we are doing. Makezine has a video of the how to on that. I am pursuing this because if this does work, it will not matter if we cannot get ferrite cores to match each other.

BTW, how many turns of mag wire did you use when you made the core from copper wire? I know you answered this once but Maybe you changed it. And anyway I think it is a good idea to always include the components in the post. The thread is so big and the ideas are so varied.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 06, 2009, 02:29:26 PM

@ jadaro2600

I have made a drawing of your coil construction, I hope it is correct. I think you can add an additional output winding as follows. Make a 2" diameter 10 turn copper coil. Make a 2" diameter 100 turn copper coil. Put both coils next to each other and wrap the green wire around both of them. Take the green wire to the collector. Take the 10 turn coil to the base. Put an LED between the leads of the 100 tun coil. If you use 3 volts, I think you may be able to replace the LED with a neon and have it light. I have not had time to test this, so try at your own risk.

NOTE - large diameter coils should work better than small diameter coils.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: weri812 on March 06, 2009, 03:16:01 PM

HellOOOOOOO To All Workers

this ia my new jt it is on a gray core 1" by fold windings 10k adj resitor and 1 colector winding running 2 jumbo led.

little slow at learning this stuff but having fun at the same time. "someone watching me" 8) 8) 8)

all keep up the good work

God Bless ALL
wer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 06, 2009, 06:49:19 PM

well guys

i got word from jt himself ... lol

the web page and online store will be online tonight ...

so if you for some reason you cant build it yourself we are gonna offer mk1 nano and mk2 nano coils ... kits and .. already built and tested coils ......

the mk1 and mk2 nano kits are 7.95 cdn each

+ shipping

wound coils are 10 bucks ... nano mk1 and mk2

as well there a number of kits and many more to come

ist!!

http://isteam.ca/ will be up and running tonight .. 8)

hope your feeling better GADGET ... I CAN'T WAITE TO ADD YOUR KITS AS WELL .. :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 06, 2009, 08:00:04 PM

Quote from: xee2 on March 06, 2009, 02:29:26 PM
@ jadaro2600

I have made a drawing of your coil construction, I hope it is correct. I think you can add an additional output winding as follows. Make a 2" diameter 10 turn copper coil. Make a 2" diameter 100 turn copper coil. Put both coils next to each other and wrap the green wire around both of them. Take the green wire to the collector. Take the 10 turn coil to the base. Put an LED between the leads of the 100 tun coil. If you use 3 volts, I think you may be able to replace the LED with a neon and have it light. I have not had time to test this, so try at your own risk.

NOTE - large diameter coils should work better than small diameter coils.

The diagram is right.

Your setup was my second guess. I'll have to try that.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 06, 2009, 08:21:18 PM

8)

you all ready to build this yet..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Erf7Fn--324

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=1977.0

i did ~~~~NAME THE THRED CORRECTLY ... ;D ;D ;D~~~~ ;) :)

?!?!?!?!!

but properly ....

i knew there was a reason i never finished it yet ..... ;)

ist....

this is a HIGH SPEED WATER POWERED TURBINE GENERATOR OF HIGH CURRENT THAT IS INTERUPTED INDUCEING A COLD KICK THAT CAN BE RECTIFIED AND USED ...

JUST LIKE THE JT ..... EXCEPT ..... NO SILICONE ...... SHEESH ....

LOL

HEY what have i learned !?!?!?!?!?!?!

CAN YOU SAY GOOD BUY!! 2 YESTERDAY??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryYTkISzN2s 8)

and now A BLAST FROM THE PAST .... LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCxOpk0r2Vw

i like to dream .... yes yes HOW GOOD IS YOUR EYE.... ;) WORKS GOOD TO WINK..... :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 06, 2009, 09:13:46 PM

The primary coil is 26 turns of 30 gage wire wrapped around a AA battery with as many turns of 26 gage wire wrapped around as possible - it is, by reference, approximately 4/5ths the length of the primary.

I didn't wind a tertiary on this one. the last one I tired didn't work, so I'll just have to make another one later.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 06, 2009, 09:59:03 PM

jadaro,

If you wrap a bifilar pair around your primary, you will have an equivalent configuration to at least mine and many others. This will show you if your copper wire core is worthy of pursuit.

This is how my mind works on this kind of thing and if it does not interest you, please say so and I will stop giving suggestions.

I got a lot of good results from most of my toroids. More than one light.

The one that gave me disappointing results was a 1 1/2 inch hi-permeability ferrite core. But these results were only poor compared to my other results.

for example: 1 jt wound with 11 bifilar turns (means 22 turns wound side by side but where the first of one wire and the last of the other were joined so the mag field oscillates)
When I wound 26 turns around as secondary I got a very bright light which drew only 6mA. When I rectified the voltage on this 26 turn wire I saw it was reading 1.99V

All of this was from a 1.2v NiMH battery.
So, I got more voltage from the secondary than I was putting in and I got a white led to shine brightly at 6mA where it normally would need 30mA for the same brightness.

These results only look good when NOT compared to my other results. But they are still pretty good.

I am hoping your copper wire can be tuned to give some good light. I appreciate what you are doing.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 06, 2009, 10:28:05 PM

Quote from: jeanna on March 06, 2009, 09:59:03 PM
jadaro,

If you wrap a bifilar pair around your primary, you will have an equivalent configuration to at least mine and many others. This will show you if your copper wire core is worthy of pursuit.

This setup you suggested was tried - it drew more ma than what would normally be used to light the bulb. As well, the freely wound unintegrated tertiary wasn't producing any results - so to answer your question, THUS far it isn't working.

Don't bother pursuing it. The fields are at 90 degrees to one another, the coils it just a novelty in this thread thus far; in order to make it relevant and get the fields at 180 degrees to one another, i would have to make a fine coil of the secondary - it would be like a coil of a coil around a loop.

It's like waging war on logic though, it would be like using a guitar string for the secondary.

Conventional joule thief toroids use ferrite and the current bearing primary is of fewer turns and shorter length than the secondary going to the collector, or as the case may be with some of you, there is a pickup coil, aka the tertiary - where the energy is drawn off and utilized ... there may even be a forth coil, where this is also used to draw off energy.

The designs are many. I'm just looking for a ferrite free design so that from-scratch applications can be made.

Getting the fields at 180 degrees seems to be the key - I'm thinking that one of my linear transformers trifilar wound using the tertiary as the draw for LEDs may be yet another way of going about it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 06, 2009, 10:53:37 PM

build an air core jt ... i did this too there is a pic in this thred...

use a old wire spool ;) plain old jt ...

i bet you can use a secondary in a air core... but.... it must be resonantally tuned ;)

hence identical coil

i can find you a video if you like ... :)

mit made a good one ... they just dont want to tell us what to do with it ;)

ist!!

video.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfUuwnD2-fg&feature=channel_page

1 more .. ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tDX85ZK14Q&feature=channel_page

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 06, 2009, 11:06:17 PM

Air core! ..it does work. This is a step towards the Rodin style coil.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 06, 2009, 11:25:58 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 06, 2009, 11:06:17 PM
Air core! ..it does work. This is a step towards the Rodin style coil.

nice....

the pretzel jt air core kit lol

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 07, 2009, 09:57:01 AM

and 1 more good song ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xXQFnIEf_Q
8)

drops of jupiter ...

tell me .... did you sail across the sun ..... did you make it to the milky way ....

tell me did the wind sweep you off your feet! ?!?!?!?!?!

did you finally get the chance to dance along the light of day...... and head back toward the milky way ..

ist!! ;)

aint nobody yapping so ill drop some songs.... dont like it dont read it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAKF3_hCSNs&feature=channel

CALLING ALL ANGLES ....

WHEN YOU CAN FEEL THE WORLD SHAKE FROM THE WORDS I SAID..... :)

I WONT GIVE UP IF YOU DONT GIVE UP ..... :)

HIS TEAM!!

I HOPE YOU ALL ARE READY TO MEET VIRGINIA 8)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7C4sUTg_kZw&feature=channel

ITS NOT EASY ..... 2 b me ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84b949k8HCw&feature=related

ist!

100 years... ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmoE8_U-JTw&feature=channel

and the last one for today .......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdubINqgzig

Kryptonite ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 07, 2009, 12:17:19 PM

I have been thinking about the second thread .

This is just my thoughts ........ I don't expect any changes because of this post ....... just something to think about.

It seems to me that if we are l near a breakthrough that could lead to OU or even just a great savings of electricity ....... we should be looking at the big picture .
The attitude now seems to be .......if a new person comes here and asks questions the common response is " read the thread "

The thread is much to long for many people to read.
The time I can spend here is limited . At the moment I can keep up with the new posts and maybe build a little . If I need to go back and read the old posts to catch up .....I won't have time to build.

There is also an attiude that for lack of a better name I will call "information shob". It is an attitude like ......I have the information .... you don't ..... you need to do your homework. One way this attitude shows up is by sharing only the most basic details . .. for example ....... when the information requested is on another site ......... and you give the site .....rather than a link to the exact information . If you have the link .....share it . I have lost alot of time reciently to this . Lost alot of my own links a few months ago when I had to reformat my drive .

In my opinion if we have something of value here ..... we need to be able to get it out to as many people as possible as quickly as possible . ...............to me this means making the second thread into a condensed version of the original thread.
The knowledge should be gained on the first thread .......the results should be put in the second thread .

I would like to see some one write a JT primer for the second thread .

I would also like to see a simple basic JT schematic ....... We should have the easiest and most basic version listed for the new people .

I also think that the second thread is to way to much work for one person . I am pretty sure that a thread can have more than one moderator here .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 07, 2009, 12:33:41 PM

this is your option .... if you are new dont want to waste a few days to learn........ IT IS GONNA COST YOU MONEY .... PEROID...

I HAVE SPENT YEARS LEARNING WHAT I HAVE ..... ;) AND WELL OVER 50 000 IN CDN MONEY I NEVER HAD TO WASTE ..... BUT I HAD A DESIRE TO KNOW!!

AND NOW I KNOW ...... BUT SO DO YOU :) IF YOU TAKE THE FRACTION OF TIME I HAVE SPENT TO SHARE THIS WITH YOU ... :o

or option #2

BUY MY KITS FOR 7.95 ...... AND YOU STILL LEARN ;) PS IM NOT THE ONLY ONE GUYS ..... MANY KNOW THIS MANY LIVE IN FEAR!!!

IST!!

KITS ARE FOR SALE.... NOW!!

YOU CAN ALWAYS SPEND THE TIME AND MONEY I HAVE .... ;D TO FIND THIS VERRY SAME PLACE .. :)

BTW THEASE KITS ARE NOT ALL MY WORK BUT EVERYONES ... 8)

comeing soon.... THE PENNY POWERED NO BATTERIES NEEDED MK SERIES COILS...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: maw2432 on March 07, 2009, 02:16:18 PM

@ All

Anyone hear from Gadgetmall ? In one of his last posts he said he a temp of 103 and was very sick. I hope he is ok.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 07, 2009, 02:43:59 PM

Yeah, I am concerned too!

@Gary,
I made 2 pics for you from Bre Petit's pdf on the joule thief from makezine. The schematic is the one we have been using since I posted it before, but since I cannot find it I am reposting it. The other is the 2 photos of the wire details when finishing winding the toroid and putting it together.
I could possibly post the pdf, but it may be too big, so here is this. I hope this helps.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 07, 2009, 02:45:45 PM

@maw2432

You are right gadget is missing , i am fearing for him , but he may have pc issue , like me and Jesus .

@resonanceman

First i would like to say that i have included in my post all the details to get this jt up and running , i my self use the very basic jt schematic
and now get over 1000 volts .

I don't feel like repeating , not because i don't want you guys to get it . I am convince that you will get it only if your heart is in the right place
since it is as simple as 1 plus 1 .

In the last week i posted many thing to understand , they are all good info , sorry if you don't see that , then you are missing the point .

Facts , jeanna tried to show jadaro . i took time to make sure jeanna got it right ,and btw i am really proud of her all info are included in the first 150 pages. Page 125 there is a picture of the mk1

please don't discard info because you don't understand , this thing is so simple , i have a hard time believing its that hard to get.
So replicate for now . And never test result with meter only because you may not find it , it take some faith .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 07, 2009, 03:12:37 PM

Here's an interesting thought: What's happening to electricity on the way back to the battery? This circuit terribly misshapes the flow of energy from the battery...is this going to effect the battery? As in, what type of electricity is flowing back to the negative?

I read one post where spikes from a battery where charing capacitors in such a way as to create a voltage larger than that of the battery source voltage.

Speaking of breakthroughs: ..has anyone considered pulling their juice from a homopolar motor to power the joule thief? or how about powering an hpg with a jt?

Also - I'm worried about these toroids emitting waves ...they are oscillating at high frequency, they may very well be emitting radio waves - if powerful enough, they could be in violation of FCC laws. Pirate posted a video of his toriod emitting AM radio waves.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on March 07, 2009, 03:18:31 PM

Gadgetmall is out of hospital, alive but still ill on another thread.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 07, 2009, 03:25:32 PM

@jadaro

In my mk8 on one coil a 470 uf reaches 35 volts in 3 sec. so i have 15 more coils ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 07, 2009, 03:26:51 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 07, 2009, 03:25:32 PM
@jadaro

In my mk8 on one coil a 470 uf reaches 35 volts in 3 sec.

Have you a link to some place which sells both ferrite cores and magnet wire?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 07, 2009, 03:32:04 PM

@jadaro

I don't have a supplier for toroid yet. mag wire radio shack has them in us , btw where are you , but first look for any toroid (recycle a old pc that should do), i will show you how i do it then you will have a idea of what to do with the copper project you got , i believe you should follow your think there . but i feel you should try ferrite first .

Mark

Any body interested ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 07, 2009, 03:34:38 PM

Quote from: jeanna on March 07, 2009, 02:43:59 PM
Yeah, I am concerned too!

@Gary,
I made 2 pics for you from Bre Petit's pdf on the joule thief from makezine. The schematic is the one we have been using since I posted it before, but since I cannot find it I am reposting it. The other is the 2 photos of the wire details when finishing winding the toroid and putting it together.
I could possibly post the pdf, but it may be too big, so here is this. I hope this helps.

jeanna

Thanks Jeanna
your links show me that I am doing it right .....but no light yet .

gary .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 07, 2009, 03:36:45 PM

@all

Btw what i have is to big for me , lol i need your help .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 07, 2009, 03:46:26 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on March 07, 2009, 03:34:38 PM
Thanks Jeanna
your links show me that I am doing it right .....but no light yet .

gary .

@Gary

There is a list of to thing that could go wrong , first the led is not connected the right way , second npn and pnp transistor don't work the same quick test revese the battery connect plus on the minus side check the bout ways . If still nothing one of the coil is wrong so exchange the ends of the coils .Check led bout ways.

Lets get that fixed !

Then to serious business .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 07, 2009, 04:20:58 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 07, 2009, 03:46:26 PM
@Gary

There is a list of to thing that could go wrong , first the led is not connected the right way , second npn and pnp transistor don't work the same quick test revese the battery connect plus on the minus side check the bout ways . If still nothing one of the coil is wrong so exchange the ends of the coils .Check led bout ways.

Lets get that fixed !

Then to serious business .

Mark

Mark

thanks .....checked all those things

The transistor is a 3904 I bought a dozen or so of them just for JTs
I also have some 2222s and some 2n7000s ( small signal MOSFETS ) that I hope to get working later .

Itr has to be some simple dumb mistake

I got my first JT running in just a few minutes ........but sense then I have been unable to get another one going .

I will get it ........eventfully

:)

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 07, 2009, 04:32:39 PM

@gary

2n2222 and 2n3904 , are pretty much be all you need , since we will not be using the original jt coil to pick up the extra juice, but additional coil. A better transistor will most likely consume more energy , some like to run with higher voltages , i don't care . That is just me there , if a 1.5 battery runs of a week , like the led jt that is enough for me now.

Also the transistor can work both way has long as you keep the base. i some time tune the core with the transistor reversed .

Mark

You said you have one working , so make a additional coil around the one working and put a led on it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gyulasun on March 07, 2009, 04:35:10 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 07, 2009, 03:26:51 PM
Have you a link to some place which sells both ferrite cores and magnet wire?

try these for ferrite toroids:

http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/products.asp?dept=1050

http://www.oselectronics.com/ose_p88.htm

http://www.surplussales.com/Inductors/FerToro/FerToro-3.html

rgds, Gyula

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on March 07, 2009, 04:37:44 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 07, 2009, 03:36:45 PM
@all

Btw what i have is to big for me , lol i need your help .

What kind of help do you need?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 07, 2009, 04:45:34 PM

Quote from: hazens1 on March 07, 2009, 04:37:44 PM
What kind of help do you need?

One man knowing , is vulnerable , many many people ,that is a different thing, I need many replication , many understanding .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 07, 2009, 04:53:41 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 07, 2009, 03:25:32 PM
@jadaro

In my mk8 on one coil a 470 uf reaches 35 volts in 3 sec. so i have 15 more coils ?

I don't think I understand what you mean by this. Other than it being a matter of fact - what context is it in Are you saying that you use 16 coils? on the same toroid?

..thanks for those links gyulasun!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 07, 2009, 04:59:01 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 07, 2009, 04:53:41 PM
I don't think I understand what you mean by this. Other than it being a matter of fact - what context is it in Are you saying that you use 16 coils? on the same toroid?

..thanks for those links gyulasun!

On the mk8 there is 16 coil i need one , to get 100 volts rectified dc. one coil connected on a 470uf i get 35 volts in 3 sec.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 07, 2009, 05:13:04 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 07, 2009, 04:32:39 PM
@gary

2n2222 and 2n3904 , are pretty much be all you need , since we will not be using the original jt coil to pick up the extra juice, but additional coil. A better transistor will most likely consume more energy , some like to run with higher voltages , i don't care . That is just me there , if a 1.5 battery runs of a week , like the led jt that is enough for me now.

Also the transistor can work both way has long as you keep the base. i some time tune the core with the transistor reversed .

Mark

You said you have one working , so make a additional coil around the one working and put a led on it.

Mark
I agree that the 3904 is enough for the standard JT
The MOSFET is for other things . Mastering the basic JT is just a start ........from there it goes to seeing what you can do with it . or how you can modify it .

The 2N7000 has a gate threshold min of 0.8 so it should still work pretty good on AAs

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 07, 2009, 05:55:18 PM

I just found a toroid from an old pc power supply, actually four of then of various types and sizes, I hooked up the one that's about an inch in diameter, and it seems to work - but, I suppose that there are some issues with the way I wound it... I'm attempting to wind a third coil on it now. The odd thing is, it work with my basic circuit but won't accept a large capacitor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 07, 2009, 06:01:44 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 07, 2009, 05:55:18 PM
I just found a toroid from an old pc power supply, actually four of then of various types and sizes, I hooked up the one that's about an inch in diameter, and it seems to work - but, I suppose that there are some issues with the way I wound it... I'm attempting to wind a third coil on it now. The odd thing is, it work with my basic circuit but won't accept a large capacitor.

Keep it simple for now.

Then put a third coil on it , and connect a led on it , if it don't work reverse the polarity on the led . Don't trust the meter. it will not always showing voltage when not rectified.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 07, 2009, 06:11:31 PM

ok guys

i actually did some SIMPLE MATH

im not so sure i should explain this

but with the next advanced MOD ... :o

WE WILL ENAHANCE THIS EFFECT 1000 TIMES ....

IN A TOROIDE.... ;)

now how can this be .... ....

i guess this CLAIM ... WILL REQUIRE AN EXPLANATION ...

just not right now

ist ...

@jim .... i bet you know

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 07, 2009, 06:14:45 PM

Ok, it's simple now :P

I have a 1 inch toroid with three coils on it, ..the one going to the collector is reversed relative two the two other coils on it; each of which is exactly half as long as the first coil.

The second coil goes to the base. An LED can be put between the collector and ground and will light; The tertiary ( freely wrapped coil, which ) does indeed light an LED. It won't seem to light LEDs in both places at the same time though.

I used a switching diode to rectify the current off of the tertiary and placed a 100nf 250V ceramic disk capacitor across the rectified tertiary coil and it's storing around 13 volts.

I'm going to try using the short coils in the circuit and the long coil for lighting LEDs now.

32ma ..which was hard to measure, it's not lighting LEDs when I measure the current by inserting the ammeter ( I'll have to use jeanna's method for measuring )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 07, 2009, 06:32:04 PM

i have decided to build another coil ...

this i will tune public ... in pictures ...

i will start with a 7x7 turn pick up coil this i will wind first it will be bifillar ...

next i will wind 2 jt coils the same dirrection around the ring... each will have 6 turns ... i will make the jt lite as usual jt does ...

then i will remove 1 turn from the primary jt windings ... 1 from each

next i will take a voltage reading and compair the diffrance ... the voltage reading for this tuneing test will use transformer action and kick action .. ran through a full wave bridge rectifier built of high restisance diodes geramium .. 1700 ohms ... there bouts..

and if my voltage across the pickups has droped ... i will remove another turn and repeate this process down to 1 turn and compair results

until i find what it is i desire ... i then will add aditinal outputs .....

and add leds to restrict the use of transformer action ...

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 07, 2009, 06:36:53 PM

@ist

Don't forget the trimpot and check the highest voltage point with the different turns , to make sure of the data.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 07, 2009, 06:38:44 PM

@MK1
And to add to the pic on page 125 was it? I must say, I appreciated your patience and I followed it and went on to other things. NOW, I realize that I had made both secondaries into one. I did all that with 1 secondary and I could have split that into 2.!!! So, I will now go back and check out what I got on EACH side.

I awoke this morning with a question. If you put the rectified voltage from just one of your secondaries/pick-ups into the battery rail of another joule thief, does it take the voltage up again to another level? If you get 24 rectified volts from one pick up, does it work the same as using a 24volt battery on another one? If it does, you ought to be able to light that cfl in no time. ??

@Gary, are you using a breadboard or are you soldering? I switched to breadboard back in January. It helped a lot.

I agree with MK1 try the one that works for right now. Remove the led that is in place in the basic jt circuit.
Then with as few as 4 to 10 turns in a secondary you can have a bank of 6 leds running. And they will be consuming no more than that first one does now.

Taking out the led from the basic circuit saves a lot in usage.

Here is what I think I do.

After making the toroid with the bifilar turns, I twist the opposite ends of the opposite wires as shown in the pic.
Then put that twisted set into the red rail of the breadboard.
Then I put the transistor into the breadboard and add the 1K resistor at the base and over a few lines to get it out of the way. Then I add one single wire of the toroid to that line at the end of the resistor.
Then add the other single wire from the toroid to the collector of the transistor
Add a jumper from the emitter to the black rail.

Now put a led in the lines of the collector and emitter. If it doesn't turn on reverse the led.

I think that does it. Please let me know if it still doesn't work.

Sometimes I have to push all the wires into the board a couple of times. Often putting one in pulls out another. That goes for the battery connections too. (Mostly this happens when I am doing a lot of testing, but if everything seems right and it still doesn't work, take out and recheck all the connections.)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 07, 2009, 06:39:26 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 07, 2009, 04:59:01 PM
On the mk8 there is 16 coil i need one , to get 100 volts rectified dc. one coil connected on a 470uf i get 35 volts in 3 sec.

my guess is ~100 volts in ~10 seconds.
at 16 feed that would be ~100 volts/~47 milliamps per .6 second.

would be more then great if we could go milliseconds...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 07, 2009, 06:47:02 PM

@ Jeanna:

That was a very good explanation of the JT construction, thanks for putting it up here. I will add one other thing that might help folks that are having trouble with the circuit. As are most small transistors, the 3904 is very easily damaged (destroyed) when soldering if you don't use a heat sink. My soldering iron is only 24 watt and I have fried several before I dug out my heat sinks....since then no problems. Just thought I would add this as a possible problem/solution for folks. Of course, if you are using the breadboard method like Jeanna and a lot of us, then this does not apply.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 07, 2009, 06:49:58 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on March 07, 2009, 06:39:26 PM
my guess is ~100 volts in ~10 seconds.
at 16 feed that would be ~100 volts/~47 milliamps per .6 second.

would more then great if we could go milliseconds...

The cap size can do that 47 uf , Or am i wrong .

I guess i am saying it depends on what you will run from those caps.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on March 07, 2009, 06:58:16 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 07, 2009, 04:45:34 PM

One man knowing , is vulnerable , many many people ,that is a different thing, I need many replication , many understanding .

I'm replicating away. I have tried dozens of configurations since I've gotten involved in this. My limits right now are time and parts. As I get more stuff and try different things, I'm learning quite alot. I've built a working MK2 with the 4 tertiary coils on a ~1 inch toroid. I did a detailed post a while back. Just one of the dozens of things I've tried. I just recently tried a coil on a ~5/8inch toroid with bifilar 2x27 turn Primary and Trigger with a single 54 turn Tertiary. I rectified the Tertiary to get 20 volts from a ~1 volt Alkaline AA. I'll be making a detailed post about that some time. I've also used my 555 timer circuit to charge batteries or run my MK2 JT from. I've got a circuit in mind that I'm working out in my head to use a double 555 timer circuit with voltage sensing to drive a JT circuit with a fairly large toroid (2in+, 5, 6..?) when I can get a hold of one. I'll then use the Tertiary coils rectified to drive classic JT circuits that have smaller coils all identical then rectify all in parallel or series to charge, make light, power lasers, power electrolyzers, whatever.. All the toroids I have to test with are 2x~1in, a ~5/8in, ~1/2in, 2x~1/4in and I have some more 1in coming from ElecGoldmine. One goal of mine is to rewrire my house lights to a seperate circuit with motion lights and timers and drive this system using solar+wind to charge batteries that will drive the JT circuit LEDs put in place of my CFLs then all my lighting needs will be free the grid and work even when the power is out. Will be costly, but any money put in will recoup in just a few years time. Specially since they have new LEDs coming out that are manufactured on larger silicon wafers instead of the current material which will make LEDs 10 times cheaper in the next 3-5 years. Once that tech is mass produced, ppl will start making the move to LED lighting in houses, especially when new homes are built which would be the easiest time to install such a modification. One days sun and wind should at least give you several weeks of nonstop light with moderate use. You have energy to spare and never have to worry about a blackout putting you in the dark. Run some electrolizers with any excess power and store in tanks to be used later for heating/cooking/hot water needs. I want to be completely off the grid in 10-15 years. Free Energy, Overunity, Underunity, Cheeply Captured Energy, I don't care what it is :P

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 07, 2009, 07:01:49 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 07, 2009, 06:49:58 PM
The cap size can do that 47 uf , Or am i wrong .

maybe it is me who is counting wrong. :-[
~47 milliamps per .6 second or ~470 milliamps per .6 second ?

a 47uf cap should divide the time by 10, but also the milliamps by 10

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 07, 2009, 07:21:37 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on March 07, 2009, 07:01:49 PM
maybe it is me who is counting wrong. :-[
~47 milliamps per .6 second or ~470 milliamps per .6 second ?

a 47uf cap should divide the time by 10, but also the milliamps by 10

Even if only 47 mili at 100 volts thats still is more then 1.2 v at 22 mili . Over ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 07, 2009, 07:44:41 PM

Ok, so i changed things around and am using the long coil for lighting the LED ..I rectified it with a switching diode and put the same capacitor across the ends and got a reading of 27.6 volts.

I'm adding a new circuit diagram for this, it's probably just a reiteration of someone else's design so I'm not going to brand it in any way...something to note is there is no capacitor needed to run this circuit. Tanking the resistor does work, but it has a negative effect on the brightness of the LED in any of the optional configurations as well as the main configuration.

The circle with the two arrows coming out of it is just a photon emitting component. I can't seem to find a good looking LED icon for DIA. Blue parts of this diagram are different setups that I've found work as well.

This circuit seems to work with the LED across the large coil, or with a capacitor included as shown. This doesn't seem to effect the operation very much at all - brightness goes down only slightly. I've included pictures of this circuit working in the optional form.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 07, 2009, 07:53:47 PM

@jadaro2600
it would benifit you greatly to use a 10 ~ 20 k ohms trim pot

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 07, 2009, 08:13:43 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 07, 2009, 07:44:41 PM
Ok, so i changed things around and am using the long coil for lighting the LED ..I rectified it with a switching diode and put the same capacitor across the ends and got a reading of 27.6 volts.

I'm adding a new circuit diagram for this, it's probably just a reiteration of someone else's design so I'm not going to brand it in any way...something to note is there is no capacitor needed to run this circuit. Tanking the resistor does work, but it has a negative effect on the brightness of the LED in any of the optional configurations as well as the main configuration.

The circle with the two arrows coming out of it is just a photon emitting component. I can't seem to find a good looking LED icon for DIA. Blue parts of this diagram are different setups that I've found work as well.

This circuit seems to work with the LED across the large coil, or with a capacitor included as shown. This doesn't seem to effect the operation very much at all - brightness goes down only slightly. I've included pictures of this circuit working in the optional form.

Nice work there , the base resistor can be change with a 1 of 2 k pot , bigger for the tune tank , or higher voltage input.

Also led can light from one turn pickup coil , on many pickup coils unit a bridge rectifier is better .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 07, 2009, 08:16:35 PM

Nice Jadaro,

I thought that blue thing was a cap???

Jesus put up a page of picture icons/glyphs that can be downloaded as pdf and copied. I am assuming (hoping) DIA can move marqueed and cut bits into place and turn them etc.

If so, I noticed that Bill has already put that page of electronic glyphs up onto the consolidation page. Have a look. Makes life easier when you can cut n paste!
EDIT:
here
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6942.4 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6942.4)
But, I don't see a led there either. You could cut it off a pic that you like. take it as a screenshot then modify or take from it. (I do that kind of stuff all the time. saves a lot.)

Hazens,
Please report more often. I am looking forward to see what you have to show.
One reason to report often is that it is inspirational to others. Even if someone doesn't replicate your work, many times something you do will help or tweek someone's thoughts and cause a new design or idea to come forward.

This really is a think tank, and when we use it that way, we get very good results.

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 07, 2009, 08:31:58 PM

The blue thing in the previous images is a capacitor - the circuit is setup in the optional configuration as shown in the circuit diagram. Here is another picture without it.

I have a 10k variable resistor; I'll stick in it and see how it works. ..*edit; as it so happens, I almost fried the transistor. This thing is very sensitive, it seems it won't take resistance over 2.5k or so. at 0 resistance, it nearly fries the transistor, ..but nothing happens at 10k.

I put a 1k resistor and the 10k varistor in series to test this. that's not what is pictured below, however.

This toroid is poorly wound - I'll probably wind one of the others later - with a bit more neatness.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 07, 2009, 08:39:17 PM

@jadaro

Nice ! Now how many led do you have? Connect all of them .

They will light.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 07, 2009, 08:50:45 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 07, 2009, 07:21:37 PM

Even if only 47 mili at 100 volts thats still is more then 1.2 v at 22 mili . Over ?

i can't get my mind to simply accept those numbers, it can't be that simple.
can it really go over the current passing through the torroide :o
i must see this by myself.

i made a few mk2, it will be easy to add more coils to them.
different size, with ramma garden wire for the torroid.
the start and ending are welded together with a semi automatic welder.

1 x 2 inchs X 2 layers
1 x 2 inchs X 3 layers
1 x 2 inchs X 4 layers

the 2 inchs measurement is the coils internal diameter.

2 X ~10 turns for the jt, .22 gauge with 4 pickup coils, .30 gauge
10 k pot for tuning

i don't have any 3904 or 2222 to test with.
no electronic store near my home and i don't have a credit card to order some.

fortunatly, i have found 2 transistor i can use.
c2120
B714 <-- work great but need 3 volts

i can't see any real difference from torroids found in computer power supply and the torroids i have made.
well, there are differences, but after tuning the jt coils, all torroids give me almost the same output.

for an unknow reason i do seem to get a bit more output with the even layered torroids.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 07, 2009, 08:55:27 PM

Has anyone tried activating the transistor with a different power supply. As in, have one battery powering the coil-to-base and another going through the transistor in a separate circuit?

I know we've got a few people using 555 timers. But what about separate power supplies all together?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 07, 2009, 09:23:44 PM

hmmm ramma garden wire is the next new thing in electronic circuits! ;)

Maybe the us has some kind of garden wire. Is this paper coated steel?

OK down to specs.

NOP Please explain. You made steel (or iron, or aluminum) toroids (YEAY) and you said they are 2 inches I guess diameter. and some layers. I guess this is 2,3,4 layers thick, but how many turns are on each layer, please.

You welded the ends so it is a loop - right?

I am soo glad to hear this. I may go to the garden center in town to find some garden wire.

again...
Is is paper coated?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 07, 2009, 09:46:33 PM

@jeanna

There is a thing here in the US called floral wire - which is steel, and is coated with a green paint to keep it from rusting. It's also cheap.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 07, 2009, 09:53:49 PM

Quote from: jeanna on March 07, 2009, 09:23:44 PM
hmmm ramma garden wire is the next new thing in electronic circuits! ;)

Maybe the us has some kind of garden wire. Is this paper coated steel?

OK down to specs.

NOP Please explain. You made steel (or iron, or aluminum) toroids (YEAY) and you said they are 2 inches I guess diameter. and some layers. I guess this is 2,3,4 layers thick, but how many turns are on each layer, please.

You welded the ends so it is a loop - right?

I am soo glad to hear this. I may go to the garden center in town to find some garden wire.

again...
Is is paper coated?

thank you,

jeanna

coated steal wire, kinda like bailling wire but smaller size.

yes, it is a loop, soldered, but not sordered with electrical solder.
use a spot welder or a semi.

0.075 inch = 1.97 mm, plastic, pvc ?, coated wire.
0.043 inch = 1.1 mm, without the coating.

1 inch high X 2 inchs diameter
12 turns = ~1 inch

.036 is 20 gauge, .048 is 18 gauge

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 07, 2009, 09:56:32 PM

Idea _ ? _

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 07, 2009, 09:57:51 PM

Quote from: jeanna on March 07, 2009, 06:38:44 PM

@Gary, are you using a breadboard or are you soldering? I switched to breadboard back in January. It helped a lot.

Jeanna

I am using a breadboard ,,,,,,,it turned out that was the problem .
It turns out I don't think in breadboardese

It is working ...........but not real well
It is maybe 1/4 as bright as my first one .
The transistor is pretty hot . the transistor on the first one runs cool . .......both 3904s
The difference is the toroid and the windings .......the first was a salvaged toroid ........ I put as many windings on it that I could fit .
The new one is one of my new black toroid s.........and only 7 windings
I am guessing that the new toroid is not fully satutating
I am using a pot for the resistor to aid tuning .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 07, 2009, 10:04:16 PM

@all

When you wind the coil , you can experiment with many design , but some just don't work good or at all, it happens more frequently with the bifilar jt coils . I know my design works good but the best i don't know that.

Mark

@gary

More turns on the jt side is not always needed , to really test result , test the pickup coil output , the resistance at the base need to be under 1 k .

Ho gadget is back.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 07, 2009, 10:17:41 PM

@mk1
the ones with coating would be 18 gauge or more.
will be hard to twist that, but should work.

i think thinner and more turns should work better tho, for the core.
but i won't be able to test that until i find some thinner garden wire.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 07, 2009, 10:27:04 PM

@TheNOP

I would said harder but not hard, I believe the iron is different. any any one has one.

But i don't know if there good enough to get my results , so far my toroid is one inch.

@all

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_h2EYPvQDqE Just because of George.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 07, 2009, 10:31:06 PM

It may be a while before I get to the point of playing with iron cores ........but some of you are there now ,,,,,,so here is an idea I was planning on trying .

One of the ways that is used to keep inductors from coupling is to place them at 90 degrees to eachother.

It seems to me that if a wire is wrapped around a toroid made of a few loops of iron wire the iron wire and the windings are 90 degrees apart

If the iron wire for the core is wrapped around a plastic tube or something flexible .....it becomes a coil and parallel to the copper coil
Once the first layer is wrapped the plastic tube could be formed into a circle and then another layer of windings added if required .

A number of iron wires could be wrapped in parallel to keep the resistance low .......

I am guessing that being in the center of the toroid and being iron it should be very sensitive ..........but it could overheat because of the higher resistance .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 07, 2009, 10:42:07 PM

@all

tesla showed us to make core from iron wire but also to isolate them , But why , since the coil wire are isolated them self.

Because the core is a coil.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 07, 2009, 11:20:50 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 07, 2009, 10:04:16 PM

the resistance at the base need to be under 1 k .

Except that 1k gave me really good results for most of my toroids.

I think it may be the toroid.

I don't know what heats up the transistor, but I am guessing it is too much voltage that heats up a transistor. And that would mean that you should limit it even more.

Anyway 14.7K base resistor was the sweet spot on one of mine.

I sure could be wrong, here, but that is what makes sense to me.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 07, 2009, 11:25:27 PM

@jeanna

What kind of pot 15 k ?

There are 3 legs on a pot , make sure you tested the right side.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 07, 2009, 11:26:54 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 07, 2009, 10:42:07 PM
@all

tesla showed us to make core from iron wire but also to isolate them , But why , since the coil wire are isolated them self.

Because the core is a coil.

Did he use the ends or did he keep the thing in a coiled loop?

This is very interesting. It is what I am finding so interesting about what jadaro and now (is it) NOP?? is doing.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 07, 2009, 11:30:19 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 07, 2009, 11:25:27 PM
@jeanna

What kind of pot 15 k ?

There are 3 legs on a pot , make sure you tested the right side.

Mark

Oh yes, I tested it and because the pot was hard to use, I tested the actual resistance right off the hooked up wires. no mistake there.

I think this is from what gadget was doing, but I thought you were doing it too. So, maybe I need to get back into my time machine and check the dials! ;D

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 07, 2009, 11:31:14 PM

i have noticed that when the coil is tuned ... i can turn my resistance ... anywhere between 0-1k it does not effect my out put....

ist!!

about 1000 x

lol

that is with the same aa battery ... :o

sure it will use power but i bet it will lite a 100 w 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 07, 2009, 11:38:13 PM

@ist

My mk1 had 8 turns and did that to it didn't mater where the pot was , but i brought it down , otherwise you can't find the sweet spot , and by making it 4 turns i got a higher voltage at the right freq. i assume that difference consume more from the input. But that said if the resistor value is not changing the output result that could also be good at different input voltage . both are good ! But faster is faster.

Mark

Edit @Jeanna , it would complicate things a bit , so the gadget is not on yet.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 07, 2009, 11:49:29 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 07, 2009, 10:42:07 PM
@all

tesla showed us to make core from iron wire but also to isolate them , But why , since the coil wire are isolated them self.

Because the core is a coil.

also because you have more eddy currents lost when not insulated.

the reason why i welded my garden wire ends together is the perpetual magnetic holder device, witch use coils looped together...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 07, 2009, 11:52:33 PM

i hope you ALL REALIZE HOW SICK N TIRED OF BEING BORKE WE ARE ......

we are adding a DONATE BUTTON TO OUR SITE....

so if you find our RESERCH USEFUL AND YOU CAN AFFORD TO DONATE PLEASE DO ...

AS THIS WILL DIRRECTLY AIDE THE CREATORS OF THE MANY THINGS GIVEN FREE OF CHARGE AND ALLOW THE EXCHANGE OF FUTURE PROJECTS

IN A PUBLIC NATURE ... ;)

WELCOME TO THE MIDDLE OF THE MIX CAN YOU SORT OUT THE RIDDLES N THE TRICKS?!?!?!?!

IST!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 08, 2009, 12:02:10 AM

Quote from: TheNOP on March 07, 2009, 11:49:29 PM
also because you have more eddy currents lost when not insulated.

the reason why i welded my garden wire ends together is the perpetual magnetic holder device, witch use coils looped together...

My view on the subject is iron will heat if the energy is not released in one way , you may be able to get that energy out , use it and keep running cold.

As for the perpetual holder that is something else in my mind , and Ed did show how to run magnet motors .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 08, 2009, 12:15:18 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 08, 2009, 12:02:10 AM
My view on the subject is iron will heat if the energy is not released in on way , you may be able to get that energy out , use it and kepp running cold.

As for the perpetual holder that is something else in my mind , and Ed did show how to run magnet motors .

YES YOUR CORRECT MK1..

BUT LOL I CAN GET WILD HERE IF YOU LIKE ......

i have done a great deal of tests over time ...

regarding this style unit ...

TIP

i used a peice of pipe ... thin wall it was a closed ring ... i wound like 1500 turns or more on it ....

why did the steel pipe get supper hot .... BUT YET MY WIRES REMAINED COLD......

also

here is the dammmmmmmm secreat agin yes another .... you must have a release ... MEANING HAVE A WAY TO REMOVE THE COMPOUNDED MAGIC / ELECTRIC .. FIELDS...... SO HEAT DOES NOT BUILD ....

grab a darn drill poke a few holes in and wind a collector in the pipe

MPI ..... ;)

IST!!

:)

COME ON GET HIGHER .... IF I COULD WALK ON WATER .........IF I COULD TELL YOU WHATS NEXT ... :) MAKE YOU BELEAVE ... MAKE YOU REMEMBER .... ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flAvh1o-s5E

EVERYTHING WORKS IN YOUR ARMS....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 08, 2009, 12:31:21 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 07, 2009, 11:38:13 PM
@ist

My mk1 had 8 turns and did that to it didn't mater where the pot was , but i brought it down , otherwise you can't find the sweet spot , and by making it 4 turns i got a higher voltage at the right freq. i assume that difference consume more from the input. But that said if the resistor value is not changing the output result that could also be good at different input voltage . both are good ! But faster is faster.

Mark

Edit @Jeanna , it would complicate things a bit , so the gadget is not on yet.

So, it must not have been you, I guess it was gadget.

I need to get one of those good kind of pots so I can make very fine changes in the resistance. There is a spot where the resistance suddenly changes the output light to much brighter and the usage goes down, then it goes up again. It is how gadget got 12 hours on one AA with his fuji circuit.

But even with a toroid,

I was comparing the hi permeability toroid with 6 bifilar turns and a 6 turn secondary. The hi permeability gave me a bad result so I made one with the same 6 bif and 6 turns secondary but on a good toroid.

The regular jtc internal light was really blazing bright and took 21.6mA
I removed the internal light and the jtc draw went UP to 24.4mA
Then I changed the resistor at the base until I got a good spot and at 19.8K ohm I had 3 lights on nice and bright and the draw was only 4.2mA. The rectified volts were 1.6v

The next one I did was with 14 bifilar and 132 turns secondary.
The amps were 1.4mA without the internal led and 4.4mA with it and
3.05mA with the led on the secondary and catch this
2.6mA with 2 leds off the secondary and then up again to
3.1mA with 3 leds.

On that last one which was inspired by something slayer had done, I changed the secondary to go up and down like on the MK models and got these good results. Before that they were not as good.

So, I think having the secondary coil going in 2 directions is important.

I need to look at this one a lot more. I really need to get that hand held strobe meter. I think it will tell something here. I'll get it along with the multiturn pots after next week.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 08, 2009, 12:38:06 AM

I think we have a problem then. Unless we can come up with a way for the magnetic moment to be so minute that it has little effect on the atoms at a quantum level -- ..the alternating current is going to create heat, this is how they heat treat drill bits - through induction heating. What I think we need is a magentic moment which stays close to the coils.

We're using devices which range in frequency of hertz to megahertz.

Maybe I need to understand why we're using these toroid in the first place.

They have a high Q response; is the closed loop of the toroid responsible for the effects of the Joule Thief?

If this closed circuit is what's key, then perhaps my original coils were the right way to go? Maybe I just need to concentrate on a fixed design. Or maybe I need to incorporate an additional element to boost the magnetic field when current flows?

edit:
Maybe we need to have a discussion on the most basic principles of how the Joule Thief works.

I can tell you right off that it's a blocking oscillator which uses flyback voltage and a collapsing magnetic field to boost input voltage to higher levels. This is about all that I know though - I've gone through so many designs, and posted so many circuit diagrams that any one refutes the other or takes it into a different direction all together. _ i'm begining to question the very inner working of such a simple device.

The fact that this device has to be tuned means that we're going to be at the mercy of our toroids and the variances. If we can compel ourselves to harness the power of the collapsing magnetic field without a ferrite toroid then we may be moving towards something that nearly anyone can replicate with just a few basic parts. ( moving towards kit status :) )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 08, 2009, 12:55:18 AM

i think the core material is mainly to contain it ...

HOW EVER MATERIAL RELEASE TIMES ARE VERRY IMPORTANT ...

YES THIS WILL CAUSE BIG PROBLEMS ... WITH THE FCC

YOU MUST ABIDE WITH IN THERE LIMITS....... ;)

I HEAR 1 K IS SAFE ;)

GO BEOND I HEAR YOU MAY GET A VISIT LOL

TIP

RICHARD WILLIS GAVE ME THIS TIP

THANK YOU RICHARD.... 8)

IF FOR SOME REASON YOU SEE HYDRO GUYS RUNNING AROUND BANGING POLES WITH SLUDGE HAMMERS YOU WILL KNOW ...

THERE LOOKING FOR YOUR INTERFERIENCE RINGS..... ;)

HENCE THE NEED FOR A SPECTRUM ANYILIZER ... FOR LARGE SCALE BUILDS....

SOMETHING ABOUT INTERFERIENCE AT SOME BIG DISTANCE ........... ;)

I GUESS IT TRANSMITTS.... I GUESS IT RECIEVES AS WELL LOL ...

HUMMMMMM

IST!!

sounds like something i said near the start of this topic .... i was jumped on ... by those that did not understand this .....

lol

i hope we now have an understanding of this now ... :)

i fired back they ALL WALKED .... ;D 8) :o

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 08, 2009, 01:03:04 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on March 08, 2009, 12:55:18 AM
i think the core material is mainly to contain it ...

HOW EVER MATERIAL RELEASE TIMES ARE VERRY IMPORTANT ...

YES THIS WILL CAUSE BIG PROBLEMS ... WITH THE FCC

YOU MUST ABIDE WITH IN THERE LIMITS....... ;)

I HEAR 1 K IS SAFE ;)

GO BEOND I HEAR YOU MAY GET A VISIT LOL

TIP

RICHARD WILLIS GAVE ME THIS TIP

THANK YOU RICHARD.... 8)

IF FOR SOME REASON YOU SEE HYDRO GUYS RUNNING AROUND BANGING POLES WITH SLUDGE HAMMERS YOU WILL KNOW ...

THERE LOOKING FOR YOUR INTERFERIENCE RINGS..... ;)

HENCE THE NEED FOR A SPECTRUM ANYILIZER ... FOR LARGE SCALE BUILDS....

SOMETHING ABOUT INTERFERIENCE AT SOME BIG DISTANCE ........... ;)

I GUESS IT TRANSMITTS.... I GUESS IT RECIEVES AS WELL LOL ...

HUMMMMMM

IST!!

sounds like something i said near the start of this topic .... i was jumped on ... by those that did not understand this .....

lol

i hope we now have an understanding of this now ... :)

i fired back they ALL WALKED .... ;D 8) :o

by "IF FOR SOME REASON YOU SEE HYDRO GUYS RUNNING AROUND BANGING POLES WITH SLUDGE HAMMERS YOU WILL KNOW ... " what exactly do you mean by hydro guys?

Also, I understand the device may be transmitting a signal of some sort - I've had qualms about this before. Which is why I haven't bothered puling out this 2 inch toroid I've got sitting over here. I'm trying to innovate around the toroid ( no pun intended ) but the idea of winding toroids is actually a rather expensive and time consuming one - if a better way can be found around it - while not creating AM transmission to Mars, then as the good captain says " make it so ".

Maybe the JT can be tuned to run at 60hz. :P

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 08, 2009, 01:13:33 AM

@all

Those that think no one care about what is being done here , just look , what internet is saying , mk1 and ist are wrong.

LoL Thanks google.

The first one attacks credibilty and the other the idea. That is there choice from 300 pages of text , with ist or mk1 mentioned.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 08, 2009, 01:59:09 AM

i hear china wants this ... :o 8)

perhaps there sample is in the mail .... ;)

ist!

so it has begun.......

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 08, 2009, 03:10:35 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on March 08, 2009, 12:55:18 AM
YES THIS WILL CAUSE BIG PROBLEMS ... WITH THE FCC

YOU MUST ABIDE WITH IN THERE LIMITS....... ;)

I HEAR 1 K IS SAFE ;)

GO BEOND I HEAR YOU MAY GET A VISIT LOL

just put a shield over the big unit and ground it. ;)

@jadaro2600
Hydro = electricity making compagnies in canada.
hydro quebec, Ontario Hydro to name a few.
there is a lots of water streams that can be tapped in those provinces.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 08, 2009, 03:19:34 AM

Quote from: TheNOP on March 08, 2009, 03:10:35 AM
just put a shield over the big unit and ground it. ;)

@jadaro2600
Hydro = electricity making compagnies in canada.
hydro quebec, Ontario Hydro to name a few.
there is a lots of water streams that can be tapped in those provinces.

come and work with us .... you are most welcome to do so ...

:)

also cap it first ;) then ground it put it to work on the way out as well a sheild the unit ;)

ist

i have 4 copper discs i will have machined for my water turbine .... 40 lbs of copper .... .5" thick ...

im not worried i can prove all of this beond a shadow of a doubt!!!

;D

but i want to share as you all know how big this is...

be this knowen i have designs for my ist mag thrustor puls motor that runs from 1 jt will drive this unit as well as my WATER TURBINE ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 08, 2009, 03:24:52 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on March 08, 2009, 03:19:34 AM
come and work with us .... you are most welcome to do so ...

:)

also cap it first ;) then ground it put it to work on the way out as well a sheild the unit ;)

ist

i have 4 copper discs i will have machined for my water turbine .... 40 lbs of copper .... .5" thick ...

im not worried i can prove all of this beond a shadow of a doubt!!!

;D

but i want to share as you all know how big this is...

be this knowen i have designs for my ist mag thrustor puls motor that runs from 1 jt will drive this unit as well as my WATER TURBINE ...

Might as well make a homopolar generator.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 08, 2009, 04:06:32 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 08, 2009, 03:24:52 AM
Might as well make a homopolar generator.

MY GOOD FRIEND ....

i already told you where to get 1 ;)

you can drive this from a motor from a TOY CAR .... then ... well power it from a mk1 nano... ;D and a button cell

then you can switch THE HIGH CURRENT GENERATED FROM THE HOMOPOLAR GEN ....

just for you i will take you a picture of a good homopolar generator than can be used to do so 8)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 08, 2009, 04:23:33 AM

@ Mark and IST:

Wow man, you guys are famous on Google evidently. Way to go. That is pretty weird if you ask me. My opinion is with this sort of negative response, you must be on the right track. Keep up the good work you guys are doing.

@ All:

I just finally fired up my Bedini and it actually worked!!! Funny thing though, when I shut it down to go smoke a cigarette, I disconnected the Supply battery (I am using 9 volt nicads) and it was still running at top speed. I watched it for about 5 minutes and then disconnected the battery that is being charged (it was a drained 9 volt nicad) and then the motor began to decelerate. I didn't know these would run on the charging battery alone....this is weird. I am only mentioning the Bedini motor here because, once I get a handle on it, I am adding the JT circuit to it as others have done already. The only thing I have wrong is that the magnets (neos) are south facing out instead of north. I did not realize this until I had them glued 8 ways from Sunday. I just wanted to fire it up to see if it worked before ripping it apart and reversing the magnets.

I have been working a lot lately but I am still watching and learning here from all of the posts.

My thought on the toroid purpose in the JT circuit is that it acts like a capacitor for the magnetic field created by the bifilar wiring. I have no basis for this opinion other than my own observations. A cap stores electrical energy and I feel like the toroids store the magnetic field for a brief amount of time before, during and just prior to collapse and then it cycles all over again. Just my 2 cents.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 08, 2009, 04:38:13 AM

@pirate

My bedini fan charges even if its not rotating . The circuit is pulsing there you go.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 08, 2009, 04:40:30 AM

@ Mark:

Wow, that is very interesting. I am learning so much here. I appreciate it.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 08, 2009, 04:47:35 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 08, 2009, 04:38:13 AM
@pirate

My bedini fan charges even if its not rotating . The circuit is pulsing there you go.

Mark

DO NOT FOR GET THE INCREASED OUTPUT AS A RESULT OF THE NO MOTION ....

my mkc unit does the same

i wont fetch the thred link ... it is here ... i built it a long time ago now :)

it is a true bedini unit polorized coil .... removed from the motor with permanate magnets on the back side ...

ist

trying to find that hpg pic for you ... it was a motor from a vcr ... to fast forward / rewind... it is weighted ... and is perfectly sutied for the purpous i mention ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 08, 2009, 04:48:14 AM

@all

I have a good idea , we always think high tech but i got this one for you , we need some thing that keep the same freq even if it has a different voltage . So Lets go low tech !Go crystal!

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 08, 2009, 04:54:48 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 08, 2009, 04:48:14 AM
@all

I have a good idea , we always think high tech but i got this one for you , we need some thing that keep the same freq even if it has a different voltage . So Lets go low tech !Go crystal!

Mark

WERI ... WHERE ARE YOU BRO 8)

you made mention to PROGRAMABLE CRYSTALS .... YEARS AGO ... ;)

WE NEED THE LINK WHERE YOU MAY HAVE FOUND THEM

lol

ps great idea mk1 .... ;D

ist!!

i threw togather a mk1 style jt on a iron garden wire core ... from ramma

this is in simplest form ...

now comes the tuneing ... ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 08, 2009, 11:00:24 AM

@ All:

Well, not that you need a play by play but I am up to page 128 on the diagrams topic for the Joule thief. I have been somewhat busy but I will get it caught up as soon as I can. Thanks for your patience.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 08, 2009, 01:35:24 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 08, 2009, 12:38:06 AM

... then perhaps my original coils were the right way to go? Maybe I just need to concentrate on a fixed design. Or maybe I need to incorporate an additional element to boost the magnetic field when current flows?

... If we can compel ourselves to harness the power of the collapsing magnetic field without a ferrite toroid then we may be moving towards something that nearly anyone can replicate with just a few basic parts.

Yes Jadaro,

This is exactly why I have been watching what you are doing and hoping you will keep going this way!!

Bravo.

wow. I love this group.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 08, 2009, 01:57:34 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 08, 2009, 04:48:14 AM
@all

I have a good idea , we always think high tech but i got this one for you , we need some thing that keep the same freq even if it has a different voltage . So Lets go low tech !Go crystal!

Mark

Got suggestions?

I have a bunch. I tried one on a stubblefield generator. (But of course, I didn't have the wires hooked up right. This spring, I will try that again.)

Mine are all from left over stock from other places and they are ALL in the MHz range.

Are you talking about stone crystal?
Anyway isn't that also a crapshoot? I mean unless it is the kind already made for a frequency, isn't the frequency a random number?
Please explain. I like the idea but I cannot get past these questions.

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 08, 2009, 02:08:37 PM

Jadaro

hey wanna try just 2 peices of wire ... 8)

;)

this is the same as the wire spool ...

aircore but i dont think shape matters so much ;)

ist!

anyone could build it .... regular jt take the core away ... lol

try just 2 wires stright NOT WOUND ... PERHAPS A PANCAKE ;D SPEEKER WIRE JT 1 LOOP

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 08, 2009, 02:26:40 PM

Has everyone had the chance to read this?

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6774.0 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6774.0)

It is short and sweet for the moment. And right up our alley.

Ist, is this the tesla patent that you referred to earlier?

----
The print function is back!! THANK YOU STEPHAN!!!

EDIT oops not for us though. We are too big. darn.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 08, 2009, 02:33:27 PM

i did not refer nor did i answer when it has been posted lol

;)

yes i have studied it .... ;D

amoung many many many more ........

sure i have a few like that .... first i saw that thred you posted tho :)

but dont matter to me i know how almost all tesla works ... almost 8)

it is best to learn in a pracital way tho 8)

ist!

the things i dont know bout tesla are because i never looked ;) i dont like to just copy ... i try to be original as best i can .... but some things ... are just not our own ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: alan on March 08, 2009, 03:05:27 PM

(interesting thread)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 08, 2009, 03:05:52 PM

@Gary

There you go !

@all

Years ago i was working for a big sat co, and i was training new staff , there must have been 30 of them , all went well , six month later one of those trainy came to me , he had been working for 5 month and a half , in a customer service for cable provider , and told me real happy about it now i know what you mean by the power button , The guy took 6 month to learn how to open a tv and that way the power key.

Sad but true. But not is fault Its mine ,i should have taken time to learn about the man he was from senegal first job of the boat.

Now say a picture is worth a thousand words , well i added some words anyway, and schematics.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 08, 2009, 03:24:12 PM

@all

Some words on the mk8 , green gem toroid , 16 coil 8 per side , 14u/13d so total 27 turns per side . 1 k trim pot 2n2222 transistor
output 85 to 120 volts per coil , one coil lights a 120 vac neon , all can be used at once you can connect them in series to get higher voltages or parallel for more amps, the pot adjust the output and freq.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 08, 2009, 03:42:11 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 08, 2009, 03:24:12 PM
@all

Some words on the mk8 , green gem toroid , 16 coil 8 per side , 14u/13d so total 27 turns per side . 1 k trim pot 2n2222 transistor
output 85 to 120 volts per coil , one coil lights a 120 vac neon , all can be used at once you can connect them in series to get higher voltages or parallel for more amps, the pot adjust the output and freq.

Mark

i guess i better build it bro

and we will list this kit aswell

we must speek b4 this as the kit price will reflect the output of the device .... ;)

ist

why green? lol just what you have or do you find it to be best ... ?

i have a few more green ones ... but they are smaller

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 08, 2009, 08:55:12 PM

I am playing with my 3rd JT

It is wound with 4 wires plus a shorter wire for the connection to the transistor base.
15 turns for base ......I think 22 for the other 4
I used the black toriod from electronic goldmine at 22 wraps I could no longer get the wires through the center of the core . .

I wound all the wires at the same time ...like one large wire.

I expermented a little with a cap on the transistor base leg ....... I ended with a .1uf with the pot I am using this combination allowed adjustment from a few flashes per second .....to very bright near the other side of the pot .

One question . when running full brightness the transistor a 2N3904 is to hot to hold my finger on . ....is this normal ?

I have been playing with the "secondarys "
I pulled the " original " JT LED out ...... I believe Jeanna said it used up to much current in that position.

I am low on LEDs need to order more.
Right now I have all my spare leds lit up .

3 ultrabright 5mm and ultrabright 10 mm
I am sure that I could light more because the LEDs that were already lit changed very little when I added more.

The last LED that I hooked up was the led I pulled out of the original JT LED position .
I only had one set of secondary leads left ......I had the my DMM hooked to those leads .
My DMM was reading 1.380 AC when I hiiked up the last LED the meter went to 1.384
Can anyone explain how I can gain .004 by adding more load?
It has been running for close to an hour and a half ........ the voltage of that secondary has been slowly dropping ........it is now 1.354

I can't wait toget some more LEDs and load this thing up ?

sorry if this stuff is way behind what you are doing .
Part of why I am posting it is for others just starting out .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 08, 2009, 09:42:50 PM

Hi Gary,

First you are not way behind.

Yes, Isn't it strange how you can get higher voltage when you add another light? I have had this happen too.

I hope you can give a better description of what your wires are like. I mean, what of the 5 wires is doing a back and forth dance and what ones are straight? At the moment they sound independent of each other except as they are all effected by the mag field of the toroid.

Did you say you are using a 1kohm resistor at the base?

I never get any heat. I believe it is because I always protect my base with at least 480 ohm resistor, and that is when I am adding the 20k pot to the 480. I think heat is because too much voltage therefore amps is going through the base.

Oh also, do you have a bridge rectifier you can temporarily put on your secondary? This will give you the rectified volts. I think you may be surprised how much voltage you are producing there.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 08, 2009, 10:42:57 PM

Quote from: jeanna on March 08, 2009, 09:42:50 PM
Hi Gary,

First you are not way behind.

Yes, Isn't it strange how you can get higher voltage when you add another light? I have had this happen too.

I hope you can give a better description of what your wires are like. I mean, what of the 5 wires is doing a back and forth dance and what ones are straight? At the moment they sound independent of each other except as they are all effected by the mag field of the toroid.

Did you say you are using a 1kohm resistor at the base?

I never get any heat. I believe it is because I always protect my base with at least 480 ohm resistor, and that is when I am adding the 20k pot to the 480. I think heat is because too much voltage therefore amps is going through the base.

Oh also, do you have a bridge rectifier you can temporarily put on your secondary? This will give you the rectified volts. I think you may be surprised how much voltage you are producing there.

thank you,

jeanna

Jeanna

I tried to explain the wires in as much detail as I can
Not sure what you mean by back and forth dance .
The 5th wire .......the short one went to the base of the transistor .
One end of the short one connected to one of the other wires ........as in the basic JT schematic you posted .
That left 3 wires for secondarys

I am using a 1K pot ......with the .1UF cap the wiper is near to the end of its travel ....... I am not sure if that is near 0 resostance or near 1k ....... I did not measure it yet and I don';t know much about RC resonance ..... at the other end of the pot the lLEDs flash maybe once a second .

..I got a couple bridges ....I will play with them tomorow .

.I am going to order some more LEDs then call it a night

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 09, 2009, 12:44:49 AM

@all

I sneak peak at the mk8.

The meter is connected to a high amp diode rectifier it lowers the voltage , in a big way , but i still have good stuff out , the meter is connected to only one coil, so 15 left.

No Claims here. except canadian tire have nice and cheap meters.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: weri812 on March 09, 2009, 01:06:21 AM

hello all

@is that is a vfo "variable frequency oscillator" or use a pll "phase lock loop" and a vco "voltage control oscillator"

all will give a variable frequency.

God Bless
wer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 09, 2009, 04:15:18 AM

I I wound yet another toroid, the largest one that I have and used a NTE210 transistor ( higher voltage and current )

Using a previous setup, I was only able to get a 12 or so volts out of a 1.5v input, 50v out of a 2.5 volt input and 240v out of a 9v..which is when the transistor started to heat up...I was indeed able to light up a 6 inch florescent tube with the 9v battery - but that's just not what this thread's about.

I need some tips on winding the toroid to achieve maximum volts from the 1.2 volt rechargeable battery. I only tested the above to prove to myself I could get 200+ volts out of my transformer.

I suppose what I need is the mk1 or 2 - I've tried this method, but not in locations like are marked in the other thread pirate posted.

*edit; at one point the toroid was singing - but it went away after adding the capacitor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on March 09, 2009, 09:18:50 AM

You want extreme voltage from a single AA battery?

Just grab the coil from a Gas Grill Ignitor like this one at Walmart..

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=8587363#Features+%26+Specifications (http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=8587363#Features+%26+Specifications)

I think this generates 25k volts from a single AA.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on March 09, 2009, 09:30:37 AM

@ist Post 365,
;D ;D ;D Ha ha ha, heeeee haaaa, you are right ist.

Very early on, way back in the beginning of this thread, I mentioned about using a valve with the JT, in other words, replace the transistor by a valve. ;) ;) ;)

It will need a hi voltage (400v-600v)on the grid or plate, well some of us have been getting JTHT, but no current, so it could be useful.
We probably will need a valve with a 1.5v heater, this will need some research.
I can see it now, Valve radio powered by the Joule Thief.

We need a chassis, which can be a flat board, say 12" by 12" or there abouts to attatch the workings to.
We will need a valve
We will need its matching vave base, as valves are a plug in device.
We will need "condensors" haaaa, capacitors
We will need resistors
We will need to research up on valve circuits, so I sugest SILICON CHIP magazine for a start, they have had a valve radio restoration section for decades.

Last year, I contacted a number of valve "jocky's", got a couple of replies, but didnt present them as I thought no-one was interrested.

A VALVE does the same thing as a Transistor, or, if correctly said time line wise, the Transistor does the samething as a VALVE.

Valves have a "A" battery and a "B" battery.
Why!!!!!!

One battery powers the filiament's the other supplies HV to the valve plates to attract the electrons off the cathode heater, arrrr ha.
I'm getting wayyyyy ahead of you all, cmon ist, lets get started on this.

OK if there are any valve jockies reading this, please, if you know of a valve whos filament is 1.5v or lower, please post the valve number, where to get it and how much it might be to buy.

ist, would a microwave valve work?

I had better get back to reading up the posts, I'm like 3 days back.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on March 09, 2009, 10:35:20 AM

Alright people, I'm back ;D

So, I did a little testing this weekend.
Built a fresh toroid, and wound 6 coils of 4 turns each on the ring core.
Two of these are placed exactly oppositely of eachother,
these were used as the basic two JT coils.
The other 4 coils were pickup coils.

Output per pickup is too low to light a LED. If I connect 2 of the
output coils in series, they will light LEDs. If I connect all 4
output coils in series, they will light an equal number of LEDs.
If I connect a capacitor to these output leads via a rectifier bridge
made of 4 Germanium OA90 diodes I see voltage accumulate
on the cap, quickly rising to 25V.
If I connect LEDs over the cap, I get a total number of bright LEDs
that is just about one LED more then what I can light from the
secondary directly, which in turn is about 1 LED more than I can
light from the JT base circuit if I don't use the pickup coils.
With the LEDs connected over the cap, I do see a constant cap
charge of about 5.5V while the LEDs are lit up.

This clearly shows that the voltage of the pickup coils is related to
the number of turns they have in respect to the number of turns on the
JT coils.
It also seems to indicate that, although the individual coils clearly do not
produce enough output to light the LEDs properly, the pickup
coils wired in series and via diodes to a cap do appear to enable lighting
of an additional LED.
I cannot conclude that I am getting OU at all, based on this. I cannot conclude
that there is definately no OU going on either.
All I can conclude is that I am getting voltage on the cap, but that could just as easily
be fully accountable since I'm not measuring the input wattage and output wattage yet.

I have now shorted a rechargeable battery so that it should be empty when I get home,
and then I plan to hook the empty battery to the capacitor and a half empty one
to the input side and just leave it to run untill the source is empty. Then I'll check how
much charge the other battery has, and if that is more than the source had at start,
then there might be chance to conclude possible OU effects.

Another idea I had but haven't tried yet, is to not use the battery connection all the time.
Say we were to charge a capacitor from the battery, then disconnect the battery, then
discharge the cap over the JT... If we do that once, the output capacitor should now
store a charge, and it should be easy to see if the charge is higher or lower than the input
charge, as long as we use two identical caps... right?
I suspect this will not work, as I suspect we really do need that battery amperage for the JT
transformer action to work properly...

Well ,anyways, so far I'm still not seeing any power gain, just seeing one or two more LEDs
light up and volts stored on the cap, but since the input feed is not being monitored
there is no way to relate it back to the input so no way to be sure that we're not just
feeding all that output in from the battery.

I'm starting to feel a little disillusioned here... Here IST and a few others have been getting very
excited over their output, seemingly suggesting that they're getting more out than they're
putting in, but after all this time and all my whining ;) there's still only those claims by
the same few, and I'm not seeing anything of the sort in my little tests.
It can't be that difficult, can it? Should be quite simple: either more comes out than goes in,
in which case it is a mystery why nobody has yet charged more batteries than it takes
to run it, or a little less comes out than goes in, in which case it is very understandable
why nobody has yet charged more batteries from one source battery.

So what is it now?
Is ANYONE really getting out more energy (so that's joules or watts and not just volts)
than is put in with any form of JT-based circuit ??
Or was that all just hot air? ;)

Kind regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on March 09, 2009, 11:29:11 AM

@Koen

I'm going to puff a bit of hot air HOT HOT HOT lol

If you want to get some useful energy (wattage or Amps) from a JT you need to parallel up JT.

Ie, make a dozen identical JT's
Connect all the transistor BASES (b) together, all other connections go to each seperate JT itself.

Then each seperate JT has to have it's own secondary.
Put a rectifier on each secondary output, you will need say 12 bridge rectifiers.

Connect all the negative outputs together
Connect all the positave outputs together

That will give you Output GRUNT

Now, you will have OG at whatever the secondary is supplying.
To get more, wind extra seperate secondaries with fewer turns, this lowers the voltage to what ever amount you want.
Play with it.

I'm going to bed, my eyes are droooooooooping, my mind is sloooowing downnnnnnnnnn.
I tink I is tired out.

Its a bit like pluging a power pak into the power point, it puts out say 12v at 1 amp
Plug in another plugpak next to it, then connect the outputs in parallel, you have 12v at 2 amps now
Do the same with a third one, now you got a 3 amp output
Do it again with a 4th one, now you got 4 amps output, but still at 12v

Hope that explained it.

night night all

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 09, 2009, 12:22:24 PM

@jim ;D

i have a few sm tubes ;)

they are 6vdc/ac heater and dubble triodes ... i have 6 of them ...

vhf .... ;D

koen1 this works EXACTLY AS DESCRIBED .....

no claims but i hear some people are able to light cfl full bright ... :)

from 1 of the mk series coils ... and a battery for extended peroids ... with out a tuned tank .... ;)

anyhow

i made a mk3 coil it will be listed on the site aswell FOR SALE ...

here is a pic

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 09, 2009, 01:44:34 PM

so i guess next is the mk4

:o

mk1 built this months ago im gonna repost his pic ...

i will now built this it will BE listed aswell

...

looking for anyone that has a small liquid battery kit .... if no one has one i will design 1 tooo it will be listed as well on the site for sale ... to power thease units with out conventinal batteryies ...

ist

i need to fetch his pic

i have been working on a MK1 NANO PEEK-O

IT IS SUPER TINY

compleated size is 1/4 "

ill add a pic ....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 09, 2009, 02:33:00 PM

Nice pic IST!

I mean that MK3 is really clear.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 09, 2009, 02:47:18 PM

OOPS I missed a page.

Good work Koen1. I think your systematic approach is much needed. I appreciate it. I don't think we are getting ou. But we are making useful what was otherwise wasted. Evidently, THAT was a considerable amount of very useful energy.

Keep on. The work is good and will give you more results. BTW I needed only one turn for one led, but I needed 8 turns to light 12 (I think 12 or 15) and this is from that little one with out any improvements from MK1. So, keep on keeping on.

@Jim, yes. Good stuff.

@MK1, beautiful - if overly large pic showing details. I see your set up is as full of alligators as mine.

thank you,
I will be back next week. Goin away again... ;)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 09, 2009, 02:58:58 PM

@Koen1

Good work, but honestly never got those low result , one turn gives me 2v rectified.

Your toroid is not a good one but it you go more turns on the jt side it should work.

Many people can light led on a single turn pickup coil , and Jeanna more then 30 per 1 turn pickup coil.
So the is something wrong. Btw the jt circuit will work even if the transistor is the wrong way around , also if the jt coil going to the collector and the one going to the base resistor are inverse .

Keep the good work, you are almost there .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 09, 2009, 06:08:02 PM

one thing i want to point out about the words "good toroid" or "no good toroid".

QuoteWhen one coil is near another, a varying current in one will produce a varying magnetic field which cuts the turns of the other coil, inducing a current in it. This induced current is also varying, and will therefore induce another current in the first coil. This reaction between two couple circuits is called mutual inductance, and can be calculated and expressed in henrys.
The symbol for mutual inductance is M. Two circuits thus joined are said to be inductively coupled.
Tee magnitude of the mutual inductance depends on the shape and size of the two circuits, their positions and distances apart, and the permeability of the medium. The extent to which two inductors coupled is expressed by a relation known as coefficient of coupling (k). This is the ratio of the mutual inductance actually present at the maximum possible value.
Thus, when k is 1, the coils have the maximum degree of mutual induction.
The mutual inductance of two coils can be formulated in terms of the individual inductances and the coefficient of coupling with the formula: M = k square root(L1L2)

if the coupling coefficient is low, you will need more turns on the jt coils to compensate.
the coupling coefficient will also affect any pickup coil(s).
the jt coils turns # change will also affect the transformer ratio, to get a say voltage on a pickup coil will require more turns.

air core do work but not very well due to the coefficient of coupling.

just to let you know, i get pretty good results with iron core toroids.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 09, 2009, 06:25:00 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on March 09, 2009, 06:08:02 PM
one thing i want to point out about the words "good toroid" or "no good toroid".
if the coupling coefficient is low, you will need more turns on the jt coils to compensate.
the coupling coefficient will also affect any pickup coil(s).
the jt coils turns # change will also affect the transformer ratio, to get a say voltage on a pickup coil will require more turns.

air core do work but not very well due to the coefficient of coupling.

just to let you know, i get pretty good results with iron core toroids.

Nicely said, thank you . I do like my toroid because the number of turns needed on the jt side are low , i like that because it leaves more room for pickup coil.

I can't wait for more info and pictures.

Mark

http://www.electronicsurplus.com/ccp75172-universal-toroid-core-829-0080-40156.htm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 09, 2009, 07:04:11 PM

@alll

Very interesting on dirty electricity making people sick, now that can only hurt, lol ya right it can't heal .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOwyn-xVXV4

One they tell you there is a electricity field , you can't see , hum sure the meter dose , if a meter dose it means we can tap that field!

How to put a spin on a story.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 09, 2009, 09:03:08 PM

Why does my toroid sing?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 09, 2009, 10:04:33 PM

@Jadaro

Coil sing most of the time , not always in audible range. loose coils don't help.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 09, 2009, 11:33:10 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 09, 2009, 09:03:08 PM
Why does my toroid sing?

because of induction.

if you want to atenuate it, dip your toroid in melted wax and let it cool down.
glue, shelac and other similar things, like varnish can also be use.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 10, 2009, 12:08:01 AM

Thankyou - know any good places to bet wire varnish? ...this stuff needs to be as temperature dependable as possible.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 10, 2009, 12:48:54 AM

for those wanting to make their own iron cores, here is the way i used.

you will need:
-a pipe, the size you want/need, any kind, as long as it is rigid.
-a sheet of paper, not needed if your pipe is a cardboard type, toilet paper core is not rigid enough unless your wire is really thin.
-tape, any kind, electrical tape do fine.
-super glue, cyanoacrilic, fast curing type
-garden wire or similar insulated iron wire
-something thin that won't burn easily, the thinner the better.
-a welding machine, spot welder are automotive welder type.

-put the paper sheet around the pipe, tape it so you can remove it from the pipe later.

-keep some wire length to be able to weld the ends together.
length depend on the thickness of your core but can be cut later.
bend it at 90 degree and tape that wire length to the paper

-make one turn, this turn must be as strait as possible around the pipe
tight it and glue it with super glue, let it dry.

-add more turns, but glue the wire every 1/4 turn to the one already turned.
one drop was enough for me, no need to glue it all the 1/4 length.
to make sure it won't deform, you can later dip it in varnish if you want.

-add as many layers as you want/need.
make sure you keep enough wire to be able to weld it to the other end.

-put something, as thin as possible, that will not burn, where the 2 ends will meet.
like thin fiberglass cloth or leather.
i used thin flexible fiberglass circuit board, about 1/64 thick without the copper on it.

-weld the 2 ends together

it does a better job if the layers are paired as the ends will be on the same side.
make sure you will be able to get your core off the pipe easily, double check the pipe ends and sand them if needed.

the gluing process is time consuming, have patience, it will pay off.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 10, 2009, 12:57:29 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 10, 2009, 12:08:01 AM
Thankyou - know any good places to bet wire varnish? ...this stuff needs to be as temperature dependable as possible.

shelac was/is also used/use for electrical insulation.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 10, 2009, 01:55:32 AM

Quote from: TheNOP on March 10, 2009, 12:57:29 AM
shelac was/is also used/use for electrical insulation.

Have you a picture of your core?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 10, 2009, 02:03:51 AM

sounds awsome the nop ;D 8)

i cant waite to see it !!!!!!

guys im just testing a mk1 nano the 1 pictured on web page .....

im getting a constant 44vdc 1 winding ....

i will check for 25 leds ... next

but it should be close

ist... :)

TIP ...... i leave 6 " of wire to tune it :P i can add more or take away to find what is best suttied for the perpous...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 10, 2009, 06:33:33 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 10, 2009, 01:55:32 AM
Have you a picture of your core?

i am very sorry, i have no digital camera not even a webcam.
only an old 35mm reflex camera.
no scanner either. :-[

i will have to borrow one.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on March 10, 2009, 07:50:23 AM

@ ist
I have an idea, silly of me ha ha ha ha ha, butu think about this.

Alter the profile of the current LED, to beam the light output.

Huhhhh!!!

The clear top section of the LED is in the shape of a dome, it is done this way to try to spread the output light so one can see the glowing from a certain angle. I have seen a couple of LEDs with flat faces

OK, use some type of cutting instrument, (I need bill here he knows the best cutting instruments avaliable) and cut the top of the LED OFFFFF at 90 degrees perpendicular to the side.

ie looksee here [___] pretend this is an upside down LED he he

Then get a sharp drill and drill down into the top, in the center of the LED.
Why do this? (mutter mutter mutter say the purests)

because the led puts out coherent light like a laser beam, now stick this modified into a torch and see just how far it will cast its beam.

I havent done this so I dont know if it will work, but a drill cutting faceing I think is at 90 degrees, so if the LED light is not focosed, then it should be when it exits the LED.
A word of warning, this will be injurious to eyes so be careful, just think what a star LED would do, turn it into a JT search light.

@Koen1
If you are getting your JT to light just 1 LED then you are making headway, because I bet you sure cannot make it light up just using the single 1.5v battery cell.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 10, 2009, 11:23:37 AM

Hello Everyone,

This is my first post :) I successfully built a JT using the instructions from evilmadscientist.com! It works great and I can light 20 10mm LED's with no problem at all. My fluke tells me that I am using .879 on the battery with a 6.14 mA draw.

I have also been playing around with the fuji mod and was wondering what type of CFL's everyone is using? I can not seem to get one to light at all. I can get the small 4 watt GE tubes to light just fine they are not very bright but they will light. I have tried to light the 10 watt CFL's modded but they wont even flicker. I have also tried the 45 watt CFL's from wal-mart as well, no luck.

I tested the output voltage on my mod and my meter reads 238 V AC. if I connect this to my modified CFL I can test right at the leads of the CFL and it is still reading 238 V AC going in. And not even a flicker? Any ideas?

Oh and another strange thing is that if I take an unmodded 15 watt CFL and screw it into a lamp, then run the Leads from my fuji board and when i say leads I am talking about the two that did go to the big cap. I place them on the lamp cord the part that plugs into the wall. The CFL will come on at half brightness and half of the tube lighting if that makes any sense at all :)

Any help would be great!!!

Thanks!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on March 10, 2009, 11:42:22 AM

Quote from: jeanna on March 09, 2009, 02:47:18 PM
Good work Koen1. I think your systematic approach is much needed. I appreciate it. I don't think we are getting ou. But we are making useful what was otherwise wasted. Evidently, THAT was a considerable amount of very useful energy.

Thanks and yes I agree that using the battery power that was otherwise wasted is indeed a good thing.

QuoteKeep on. The work is good and will give you more results.

Well I hope so...

QuoteBTW I needed only one turn for one led, but I needed 8 turns to light 12 (I think 12 or 15) and this is from that little one with out any improvements from MK1. So, keep on keeping on.

So that's just a pickup coil around a basic JT then?
See, that's what I have some trouble with here...
Why is it that you can use a single turn pickup for a single LED, and some apparently can light quite a number
on a single turn pickup coil, but I seem to be getting out only barely more than the basic JT puts out?
Well, I just don't get it.... :(

I'm going to play around with a few variations but after all this time trying I'm starting to get a bit annoyed
with my toroids here... Tried all kinds of things and not once got anything like the grand outputs some
others are talking about...

I may just toss the entire JT part in the bin and try to make a simple 1:200 trafo and simply use the
transistor to pulse the primary or something... that should also be able to run off 1V and nearly "dead"
batteries and should also transform the input to 200 times that voltage...
Lol yeah ok I won't be able to wind a 200 turn coil on those small ring cores at all, so I guess it'll
have to be a larger old transformer...
Any "back emf" effects seen in the JT should also occur in any other pulse fed trafo, shouldn't they?
So just hooking diodes up to the coils at the right spots should be able to pick some of that up...

@Jim: Yeah ok, you're right in that I can't make the LED light from the single AA battery,
and that it does light from that same single AA when a JT is used.
doesn't even matter how many turns you use on the JT core, as long as the basic two JT coils
have an equal number of turns. So a ring core with a total of two turns can already produce the
double voltage at half the amperage of the feed current. That part is simple enough.
The basic JT I can build and it will work, no problems there.

It is the expansion, the upgraded versions that use pickup coils, that's what is confusing me.
Most claims of these pickup versions seem to include significantlygreater numbers of LEDs
lit with multiple pickup coils and some even include seemingly ludicrously high voltage DC output.
This is the part I have trouble with and cannot seem to replicate.
I just do not see much greater numbers of LEDs lit on my pickups, I see like one or two more in total...
I do not see enormous DC output, I see exactly what can be expected from the trafo and the input,
coming from a DC connection with a capacitor in parallel that retains a higher charge than the
feed current. That doesn't really show any excess energy or energy gain or whatever at all,
which seems to be in contradiction to what some of the guys here have apparently been getting out.
And this is becoming quite frustrating. People saying I'm on the right track while I just see
the same old dusty track I was on before... :-\

Regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: ScienceMan on March 10, 2009, 11:54:54 AM

Hi Guys

I want to do a JT for a science project for school.

I'm slowly reading this thread from the end to the beginning to try and get an idea of the best JT to use for my project...

Any suggestions for which circuit and what winding config. could be used to light up fluorescent tubes using the smallest possible battery (to give a contrasting appearance between supply and output)?

Any help would be much appreciated.

SciMan

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on March 10, 2009, 01:41:56 PM

@ Gadgetmall

You need to try one of the eight inch round 22w cfl's for your Fugi.

They light a lot brighter than the 10w spiral cfl's
Even with the JT turned all the way down the light will still light.

I couldnt believe the differance in light off two batterys on my JT its almost full brightness.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 10, 2009, 03:43:07 PM

@koen1

Show me a picture, also when testing different thing on the jt , i pre wound a pickup coil and rectify it so i know what is going on.
And yes only one pickup coil is not more , but many will see. But if you rectified your coil and tested many pickup coil and gone nothing,
Then your core is bad, change that.

Also what transistor and resistor are you using.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 10, 2009, 04:34:23 PM

I found an interesting sealant for us - maybe not the least toxic, but it seems to be heat resistant to 1200 degrees.

http://www.rustoleum.com/CBGProduct.asp?pid=112 (http://www.rustoleum.com/CBGProduct.asp?pid=112)

...Never thought about using a spray on enamel normally used on grills.

...And it comes in a few colors as well. I'll have to give it a try in a well ventilated area. Hopefully my coils never reach 1200 degrees. This was available at Lowes.

--
The easiest CFL to use is one that you can buy without all the baggage - those 6" lantern bulbs...or the bend-abouts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 10, 2009, 04:53:28 PM

Quote from: Koen1 on March 10, 2009, 11:42:22 AM
yeah ok I won't be able to wind a 200 turn coil on those small ring cores at all, so I guess it'll
have to be a larger old transformer...

what gauge are you using and what is your toroid size ?
are your components specs Equal to the other member(s) you wish to replicate the work ?

Quote from: Koen1 on March 10, 2009, 11:42:22 AM
Any "back emf" effects seen in the JT should also occur in any other pulse fed trafo, shouldn't they?
So just hooking diodes up to the coils at the right spots should be able to pick some of that up...

back emf is only one side of the coin.
it as a conter part and the beginning of it exhibit the same behavior voltage wise, but in reverse.

Quote from: Koen1 on March 10, 2009, 11:42:22 AM
doesn't even matter how many turns you use on the JT core, as long as the basic two JT coils
have an equal number of turns.

not true, it don't need equal number of turns.

Quote from: Koen1 on March 10, 2009, 11:42:22 AM
Most claims of these pickup versions seem to include significantlygreater numbers of LEDs
lit with multiple pickup coils and some even include seemingly ludicrously high voltage DC output.
This is the part I have trouble with and cannot seem to replicate.
I just do not see much greater numbers of LEDs lit on my pickups, I see like one or two more in total...
I do not see enormous DC output, I see exactly what can be expected from the trafo and the input,
coming from a DC connection with a capacitor in parallel that retains a higher charge than the
feed current. That doesn't really show any excess energy or energy gain or whatever at all,
which seems to be in contradiction to what some of the guys here have apparently been getting out.
And this is becoming quite frustrating. People saying I'm on the right track while I just see
the same old dusty track I was on before... :-\

it is simple
with a ratio of 1:200, and enough milliamps, you should be able to light ~200 3v leds in series and more if you are using the .7 volt threshold ones.
do not see that as excess energy, it is not.
instead test how leds work at high frequency, theirs specs are given for dc, not for high frequency ac.
same thing for cfl, learn why and how they light.
to my knowledge, no one here gave measurements that prove energy gain.
most are only stating faqs or part(s) of it.
some with in between lines suggestions of further test that might be done, but that is as far as it goes.

i can confirm it to you.
there is no ou in a basic jt, with or without a step up transformer coil.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on March 10, 2009, 06:08:52 PM

regarding the sealant or wire insulation, super corona dope works great, covers all the bases.
http://www.web-tronics.com/sucodo554.html (http://www.web-tronics.com/sucodo554.html)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 10, 2009, 06:31:06 PM

@ScienceMan

Hey I am new here as well :) Try starting out with a basic JT to get the feel for the device. You can also try the fuji mod. So far I can light a 4 watt tube with 1 AA battery.

Take Care and good luck!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 10, 2009, 09:48:24 PM

Quote from: ScienceMan on March 10, 2009, 11:54:54 AM
Hi Guys

I want to do a JT for a science project for school.

I'm slowly reading this thread from the end to the beginning to try and get an idea of the best JT to use for my project...

Any suggestions for which circuit and what winding config. could be used to light up fluorescent tubes using the smallest possible battery (to give a contrasting appearance between supply and output)?

Any help would be much appreciated.

SciMan

if you want to build yourself.

what you will need:
-1 core, 1 inch toroid will do. (you are not limited to just toroids)
-1 transistor, 2n2222 and 2n3904 are mostly used but most camera's flashes ones are proven to work very well.
- wires, 22 gauge for the jt coils, 30 gauge or less is recommended for the pickup coil.
-1 capacitor, 47 uf will do. (optional)
-1 diodes bridge. to take measurement, not need in the final device.
-1 potentiometer, 10k ohms will do
-1 protoboard(breadboard) is recommended but is optional.
-1 voltsmeter

-put a temporary coil on your core, about 10 turns will do.
it is for tuning your jt coils

-put the joule thief coils at 90 degree on each side of your temporary coils.
that make it so your jt coils are 180 degree appart.
make them 10 turns each but keep long enough of wire to be able to add at least 10 more turns.

-hook the diodes bridge to the temporary coil, + and - pins goes to your voltsmeter.

-make the jt connections as per the schematic, see below.

now you are ready to tune the jt coils to your core.

1 -sweep the potentiometer slowly from one end to the other, while keeping an eye on your voltsmeter.
get it to the highest voltage it can go, mark down the measurement.

2- compair the measurements, if this is the first measurement go to step 3.

a - if voltage get higher than previously do step 3

b - if voltage is lower remove the last turn you made, you are done with the tuning.

c - if this is the second measurement and it is lower go to step 4

d - you had to many turns and now voltage is lower, redo the last turn, you are done with the tuning.

3 - disconnect the battery, add one turn on the coils that have less turns, or pick one if this is the first measurement.
reconnect the battery and do step 1

4 - you have to many turns.
do step 3, but keep in mind you must remove instead of adding during the remaining of the procedure

tuning is now done.

-remove the temporary coil and add the true pickup coils, between the jt coils.
the number of turns is dictate by the application you want to use your jt for.

for cfls application:
the transformer of the fuji camera is known to be able to light cfls.
they have around 2000 turns in them.
this can get a bit troublesome at that high number of turns.
so i suggest Mk1 way of doing it, multiples coils.

the figure here is a mk1 coils:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6942.msg162320#msg162320

an mk8 (16 coils, 8 coils on each side of the jt coils, is sayed to light cfls)
but an mk4(8 coils) or mk6(12 coils) might work too.
connect all pickup coils in series.

note: the the pickup coils can also be tuned.
but that is an other procedure than the one above.
it involve volt per turn measurements.

have fun. ;D

P.S. for those who can see errors in this post, or see it can benifit from additional informations.
please feel free to copy, make the needed changes, then repost it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on March 10, 2009, 10:19:31 PM

1/2 inch toroid wrapped 22 turns x 2 bifilar Green 26 gauge magnet wire. 88 turn Red 30 gauge Tertiary. N2222 NPN transistor. 461pf 1kv capacitor and 10k resistor parallel. Running on 1.2v 2100mah rechargeable AA. Puts out 18v rectified from 1.3v load. Current load is 8ma.

Edit: Tertiary is actually 88 turns, not 44. Sorry..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on March 10, 2009, 11:14:34 PM

Quote from: hazens1 on March 10, 2009, 10:19:31 PM
1/2 inch toroid wrapped 22 turns x 2 bifilar Green 26 gauge magnet wire. 44 turn Red 30 gauge Tertiary. N2222 NPN transistor. 461pf 1kv capacitor and 10k resistor parallel. Running on 1.2v 2100mah rechargeable AA. Puts out 18v rectified from 1.3v load. Current load is 8ma.

@hazens1

Nice presentation of your JT using only 8 mA, congradulations ;D

I noticed that you mentioned the JT coil was 22 turns x 2 bifilar Green 26 gauge magnet wire while the 4 turn Red 30 gauge Tertiary is exactly double the number of turns.

How was the Tertiary wound in relation to the JT primary?

It looks like it's all wound at the same time to me but please elaborate if you can, it looks different than the MK JT coils at 180 degrees which is ok as you seem to have a greater output with low power consumption than the original JT circuit :)

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: ScienceMan on March 11, 2009, 12:10:37 AM

@ TheNOP

Thank soooo much for those plans - I've got all the parts so I'm good to go. I'll build it this weekend and will post results!

SciMan

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 11, 2009, 02:44:11 AM

@All

Most of my design need a real low resistor some times under 100 ohms , but may over heat the transistor , i have found a simple work around
No electronic here but coil design , now its running at the same speed with 850 ohms , i usually have 4 turns on each side so now 6 it dose remove some room for pickup coils.

Mark

Edit Core is iron powder toroid

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 11, 2009, 04:28:25 AM

Is the toroid a conductor? Does it conduct on the inside?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 11, 2009, 06:32:58 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 11, 2009, 04:28:25 AM
Is the toroid a conductor? Does it conduct on the inside?

the ones in power supply give me about a few 100k resistance.
so yes, most toroids could be conducting.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on March 11, 2009, 07:29:29 AM

Quote from: Goat on March 10, 2009, 11:14:34 PM
@hazens1

Nice presentation of your JT using only 8 mA, congradulations ;D

I noticed that you mentioned the JT coil was 22 turns x 2 bifilar Green 26 gauge magnet wire while the 4 turn Red 30 gauge Tertiary is exactly double the number of turns.

How was the Tertiary wound in relation to the JT primary?

It looks like it's all wound at the same time to me but please elaborate if you can, it looks different than the MK JT coils at 180 degrees which is ok as you seem to have a greater output with low power consumption than the original JT circuit :)

Regards,
Paul

Sorry, I was mistaken. The Tertiary coil is 88 turns.

I wound the primary and trigger coils at the same time using a double strand CCW around the core 22 times for 2 coils of 22 turns filling the inside exactly 1 layer 360Â° outside layer was ~50% filled. Then I came back and wound the tertiary 1 time between each wind of the primary and trigger going around core twice (second time around was CCW or to the right of the first) giving 88 turns CCW 720Â°. I can try to take some closer pics..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on March 11, 2009, 08:24:34 AM

@all,
Just a snipert of info here, can you tell if electricity is different.

When I was a kid, in Lae in New Guinea, (early 50s) we had a kerosene light, and fridge, then the electric power was connected, but at 8pm the generators were turned off, the lights would blip once, then we knew we had 5 minutes left before the power was off to the whole town..

I could tell (don't know how) that the power there was smooth.
I moved to Australia, and I could tell the power here was harsh.

Both these countries used 240v AC at 50cycles (I dislike the word Hz to discribe cycles)

I could sence it or feel it, no, I didn't have to touch it to find out. :P
Afta a while I couldn't tell the defference

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on March 11, 2009, 09:50:37 AM

@Jim:

can you describe what you mean when you say you "felt"
a difference between the "smooth" and the "harsh" AC?
(trying to understand what this difference may be)

Do you think that has to do with a smoother sinewave output?

And on a sidenote, does Australia have 240V AC?
Or is that like we have here in the Netherlands, 220-240V,
averaging out at 230? Just nitpicking here ;)

I have heard people who use inverters to produce AC talk
about how smoother sinewave output is "better" and less
"stressful" on the equipment/appliances than less smooth
AC that doesn't so much come in neat sinewave as it does
in alternating pulses (block wave)...
Do you think that's what causes the difference in "smooth"
and "harsh" AC? If so, would that imply that inverters are
used in Australia to produce the grid AC?

And just a thought, may be silly, I leave that to you ;)
Let's assume we'd have a "harsh" non-sinewave AC,
could we not "smooth" that out by using some caps
to take the sharp edge off the pulses? Just throwing an idea up here... ;)

Regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on March 11, 2009, 09:54:21 AM

@altrez,
Welcome to the JT forum. :)

Its heartening to know you have already made a JTand it works, congrats from me and all.

I wont aswer your queri about the fuji, as there are others here who are the specialists.

But it's good to know you havejoined us.

jim

@ScienceMan
Welcome also to the JT forum, :)

You want to get your school kids to make a JT, this will surprise them, (and you) ha ha.
I think this is an excellent idea. ;)

If you ask ist here, or Gadgetmall, he will probably have some JT kits that he could sell to you if you or the kids havent got access to the torids etc etc.

Just make sure you have one working before you dive into the room, anyway we can help you with the how and what to do.

Bacilly your JT needs 1 transistor, (BC548, or 2n2222 or 2n3904) as long as it is a npn device.
Use a core torid anywhere from 1/4" to a 1" diameter, yellow or black core, either will work.
Torids are attracted to a magnet, but have no resistance.

Some copper wire, try any size, wind anywhere from 2 bifilar turns to 12 around the torid.
If you need heeps of fine copper wire, see if you can locate a fan out of a dead microwave, and unwind the wire off the coil. or use jiffey hookup wire.

You will need a least 2 LEDs, 1 goes between the collector and the emitter of the transistor
Keep the 2nd LED to see if your torid can put out usable energy.

If the school has a cro, hook it up to different points and look at the waveforms.

Wind a secondary coil on the same torid, but dont go over the bifilar windings, for example, start the secondary, wind wind, then stop before you get to the other end of the bifilar coil, and this is the secondary ending.

Solder the led to the secondary ends, turn on the juce.
Next unsolder the LED, turn it around and resolder it again, and see what occurs.

Next, unsolder one LED leg, and solder a 1N4004 diode in between.

Try soldering LEDs in series, then try LEDs in parallel

Hope these ideas are of help to you.
Let us know how you go.

Almost 4 got, if you want to wind a big secondary coil, cut some cardboard that will fit through the torid, say 1/4" wide, 3" long, cut a NOTCH V in each end, wind as much wire onto this, then feed it like a weavers shuttle through the torid.
Saves you going troppo.

jim

@Koen1
Sorry to keep you, and don't know if anyone has helped you.

OK, I didn't understand you had a working JT, I thought you had problems in hooking it up, sorry old chap.

Right, so it's your secondary you are having problems with.....?

In case this is it, try this

Wind 80 turns on the torid which has the JT bifilar coil on it.
Don't wind over the top of the Bifilar turns because it will interfeer with its operation.
If you need to, you can wind turns back over the ones you wound, this will be you secondary second layer.
I read somewhere that the magnetic flux works well up to 2 layers, even to 3 layers, but it diminishes after that.

In my above post to Scienceman, I mentioned some things about his secondarie coils, that could help you also.

If you get an output from the secondary, then grab another torid and wind 20 turns onto it.
Then wind a secondary onto it also, then see what the voltages are.

@altrez and Science man, the outputs from these JT will contain NO amps, only ma, but they can light up fluros and neons.
But, most of us here have found that we are getting DC and AC together, and it appears that rotating magnetic fields are involved inside the torids.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 11, 2009, 11:02:58 AM

im happy for everyones achievements

:)

are we ready for GRUNT YET?!?!?!

eventually i will try to use some heavy duty transistors from a comp power supply ;)

someing like 30 amp @1.5v would be CRAZY ;D

so i see NO REASON TO TUNE THE DAMM THING TO 5MA...... THIS IS A WASTE OF A COIL :o :o :o ALSO YOUR COIL WILL HAVE TO RUN IN RESONANCE .... LOL CHANGE THE LOAD..... SO DOES THE FREQ CHANGE LOL

LMAO!!

THE WAY I HAVE TUNED MY MK2 COILS..... THEY ARE NOT FREQ DEPENDENT :P :P :P meaning .... lol out put remains the same in working range..... ;)

IST!!

8)NOW DO ASK ME HOW I AMP THE OUT OF MY COIL BY 1000 10 000 100 000 TIMES?!?!?!?! 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on March 11, 2009, 11:15:52 AM

Quote from: electricme on March 11, 2009, 09:54:21 AM
@Koen1
Sorry to keep you, and don't know if anyone has helped you.

Well yes and no, people clearly offering helpfully intended advice,
and I'm certainly gratefull for that, but I'm still not seeing anything
spectacular in my output...

QuoteOK, I didn't understand you had a working JT, I thought you had problems in hooking it up, sorry old chap.

Lol no that wasn't it :) The JT works like a charm. Great way to use "dead" batteries in flashlights etc.

QuoteRight, so it's your secondary you are having problems with.....?

Again, yes and no. I can get output from a secondary or two even, but it is nowhere near the
high output some have reported. And I'm not just talking about the volts here,
if it was only volts that'd be fine, but some have reported getting high voltage DC out,
now that's something I'm not seeing at all. For that would seem to imply actual
power gain as in not only is the output higher voltage but it has actual amperage too...
What I see is very straightforward transformation of low volts high amps to high volts
low amps, but not at all high volts at near input amps.
But hey, perhaps I should just forget about the reported high voltage DC output eh?
That seems to be the part that I'm just not seeing here and also what frustrated me,
but if I just forget about that then I've got a nice working JT so I could just leave it at that.

QuoteIn case this is it, try this

Wind 80 turns on the torid which has the JT bifilar coil on it.
Don't wind over the top of the Bifilar turns because it will interfeer with its operation.
If you need to, you can wind turns back over the ones you wound, this will be you secondary second layer.
I read somewhere that the magnetic flux works well up to 2 layers, even to 3 layers, but it diminishes after that.

Yeah, I was thinking, could we not wrap a layer of simple iron garden wire around it like a sort of
additional core layer and could this perhaps enable us to wrap another coil layer around it? Just a wild thought. ;)

QuoteIn my above post to Scienceman, I mentioned some things about his secondarie coils, that could help you also.

If you get an output from the secondary, then grab another torid and wind 20 turns onto it.
Then wind a secondary onto it also, then see what the voltages are.

Ok, thanks for the tip!
Erm... ???
Are you saying to take the output from the pickup coil and feed that straight into
a primary coil that is wound on a different and seperate ring core? Did I understand
that correctly?

Now I'm probably saying something stupid here, but would that not simply act as
a transformer that is fed the output from the JT pickup?
So then let's say the JT pickup puts out 5V pulses, we feed this into a trafo
with a 20 turn primary and let's say a 40 turn secondary, then the secondary
will simply put out 10V pulses, right?
So then why not just wind a pickup coil on the JT with a lot more turns?
Or does the flux action in the JT core interfere with the simple trafo action perhaps?

Anyways, I shall wind a seperate trafo on a core and feed it the pickup output,
see what I get.
Thanks for the tips. :)

@Mark: just to get back to your Tesla toroid imitaion experiments with the JT,
did you get any significantly higher output when you used 2 sets of JT input
coils at 90 degrees to eachother, like that Telsa toroid patent showed?
If so, then perhaps I should try that?
Did you try the setup with one normally wound pickup coil and one of which
half is wound oppositely to its other half, like shown in that patent pic?
Or did you use two pickups that are wound normally?
lol still trying to figure out how to get more power out ;)

Kind regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: ScienceMan on March 11, 2009, 11:19:30 AM

@ Elctricme

Thanks very much for the reply... Just to tell you -> I'm 14 years old and I am a "school kid" (sounds as though you think I'm a teacher) ;D ;D ;D... Perhaps my name should have been ScienceBoy not ScienceMan ha ha... But anyway thats besides the point...

Thanks a whole lot for those instructions and like I said earlier, I'm gonna make the JT this weekend and post results and photo's etc... Thanks again :)

SciMan (SciBoy)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 11, 2009, 12:38:44 PM

@ Elctricme

Thank you for the warm welcome! I do have another question that is not related to the fuji circut that perhaps you or someone else might be of some help. I built the JT from the instruction's at evilmadscientist.com and I got all my parts from radioshack. Right now I am simply connecting LEDS to the main one in the circuit and there all in parallel. I have got around 15 LEDS running just fine. And I am sure I could add at-least 15 more. I think most of the people on this forum put there's in series, is there a reason for this?

The more I read in the forum the more I think I am missing something. Should there be a diffrent coil then the one the LED's are connecting too? My coil is only 6 turns or a 3/3.

I noticed on here that some coils have way more turns then mine. I also completely removed the resistor once I added more leds to the main circut. And my mA drawn went down slightly.

Again thank you for the warm welcome!

Take Care!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: weri812 on March 11, 2009, 04:30:03 PM

HELLO ALL

MADE A PDF

DOWNLOAD HERE http://dc17.4shared.com/download/92369513/2b2fe2e3/HOW_TO_BUILD_AND__TUNE_THE_JT_COILS.pdf

God Bless
wer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 11, 2009, 04:59:45 PM

@altrez

Welcome , and yes try something put one more coil on it and connect your led on it , they will light , 1 turn may be enough to light all your led , now if you can light all the led you have parallel on it , how many 1 turn coil can you put on your toroid
And how many led can you put on those , the answer is to many , for the money a have.

I only connect leds in series to check voltage , but in parallel is the way to go.

Mark

Edit @all also longer jt coil lowers battery draw.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 11, 2009, 05:39:14 PM

Quote from: ScienceMan on March 11, 2009, 11:19:30 AM
@ Elctricme

Thanks very much for the reply... Just to tell you -> I'm 14 years old and I am a "school kid" (sounds as though you think I'm a teacher) ;D ;D ;D... Perhaps my name should have been ScienceBoy not ScienceMan ha ha... But anyway thats besides the point...

Thanks a whole lot for those instructions and like I said earlier, I'm gonna make the JT this weekend and post results and photo's etc... Thanks again :)

SciMan (SciBoy)

LOL , don't worry you will be a man here , i can't wait to see , you result , we will help you no problem . If you do show your friends how then you will a teacher.

Thank for being here !

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 11, 2009, 06:20:46 PM

@Mk1

Thank you for the help. I took one piece of wire that I had left over from my first JT build and wrapped it around an open spot on my toroid 4 times. So now I have the extra coil of wire on the toroid and it will not light an LED, I also tested it with my meter and it shows no voltage.

I am not sure what I might of did wrong. Do I need two different piece's of wire on this new small coil? Or do I need to wrap it on top of the wire that I have already placed on the toroid?

Thank you so very much!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 11, 2009, 06:28:06 PM

@all

Tesla tube co. Ez 81 is this a clue.

also real nice find tesla 1894.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/13040608/The-Researches-of-Nikola-Tesla-1894

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 11, 2009, 06:32:51 PM

Quote from: altrez on March 11, 2009, 06:20:46 PM
@Mk1

Thank you for the help. I took one piece of wire that I had left over from my first JT build and wrapped it around an open spot on my toroid 4 times. So now I have the extra coil of wire on the toroid and it will not light an LED, I also tested it with my meter and it shows no voltage.

I am not sure what I might of did wrong. Do I need two different piece's of wire on this new small coil? Or do I need to wrap it on top of the wire that I have already placed on the toroid?

Thank you so very much!

At this point , one turn will not show you anything on the meter , it doesn't mean its not there , how is you toroid again bi filar or mk style . but first the led you did try directly on the coil nothing else , there is 2 way to connect led check both
If nothing try 2 turns .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 11, 2009, 07:19:55 PM

Quote from: innovation_station
THE WAY I HAVE TUNED MY MK2 COILS..... THEY ARE NOT FREQ DEPENDENT meaning .... lol out put remains the same in working range...

how did you tuned them ?

i thought a core is chosen for it frequencies response, a working range, and, wave length coupling methods only used for core less coupling.

i am a bit confused at trying to decipher what you wrote.

Quote from: Koen1 on March 11, 2009, 11:15:52 AM
if it was only volts that'd be fine, but some have reported getting high voltage DC out,
now that's something I'm not seeing at all. For that would seem to imply actual
power gain as in not only is the output higher voltage but it has actual amperage too...

maybe i have missed that post.

but it surely don't imply a power gain.
almost all voltsmeters will display a dc value when measuring ac of high frequency.

my meter do read ac and dc voltage out of my 110 mm flash camera.
there is no caps on it anymore i removed it.

Quote from: Koen1 on March 11, 2009, 11:15:52 AM
Yeah, I was thinking, could we not wrap a layer of simple iron garden wire around it like a sort of
additional core layer and could this perhaps enable us to wrap another coil layer around it? Just a wild thought.

it would help the inner coils, but there will be almost no interaction of the internal magnetic field and the outer coil(s).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 11, 2009, 07:28:07 PM

@Mk1

I am using the bifilar coil. I just tried it again with 1 and 2 and 3 turns and just the LED tested each side of LED and it will not light?

Any ideas?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 11, 2009, 07:36:11 PM

@TheNOP

To get it to work at the same voltage , at any freq , you just need some more turns , on my first mk1 it had 8 turns jt coil
and gave me 67 volts at any resistance from 1k to 1 ohms , but get higher voltage with 4 turns 100 volts. there are some trade of in both cases. If we had a better way of timing thing at any battery voltage my would help getting higher results .
But for a battery powered device its better to have 8 turns , because when the battery drops to low it doesn't effect the output so much , but for getting better voltage in a small toroid not that good because you need more turns pickup coils .
But no problem with bigger core.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 11, 2009, 07:39:09 PM

Quote from: altrez on March 11, 2009, 07:28:07 PM
@Mk1

I am using the bifilar coil. I just tried it again with 1 and 2 and 3 turns and just the LED tested each side of LED and it will not light?

Any ideas?

remove the jt leds , see what happens , if noting there is something wrong in the connection to the transistor , make sure you got the collector and emmiteur right. also the led on the jt side may not be connected right.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 11, 2009, 07:47:09 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 11, 2009, 07:39:09 PM
remove the jt leds , see what happens , if noting there is something wrong in the connection to the transistor , make sure you got the collector and emmiteur right. also the led on the jt side may not be connected right.

When you say remove the JT LED. Do you mean the one that is connected to the coil that I have now? I am just a bit confused. I have 10 LEDS running from the JT right now. I just removed all of thoses but the one that is connected to the transistor and bifilar coil. The new coil I added to the Toroid still will not light the the LED. Do I also need to remove the single one connected to the bifilar coil as well? So that the only LED that is connected is the one on the new single wire 3 turn coil?

Thank you so very much for all the help.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 11, 2009, 07:52:48 PM

Quote from: altrez on March 11, 2009, 07:47:09 PM
When you say remove the JT LED. Do you mean the one that is connected to the coil that I have now? I am just a bit confused. I have 10 LEDS running from the JT right now. I just removed all of thoses but the one that is connected to the transistor and bifilar coil. The new coil I added to the Toroid still will not light the the LED. Do I also need to remove the singe one connected to the bifilar coil as well? So that the only LED that is connected is the one on the new single wire 3 turn coil?

Thank you so very much for all the help.

Ok , my idea of this circuit is to not use any led on the jt but rather make them run from the pickup coil since when done right one turn can light up to 30 led in parallel then the question will be how many single turn pickup coil can you put on that toroid. and yes you connect the led to the pickup coil only , if you want to see the voltage , you will need diodes.

I hope it make more sense now

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 11, 2009, 08:01:33 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 11, 2009, 07:52:48 PM
Ok , my idea of this circuit is to not use any led on the jt but rather make them run from the pickup coil since when done right one turn can light up to 30 led in parallel then the question will be how many single turn pickup coil can you put on that toroid. and yes you connect the led to the pickup coil only , if you want to see the voltage , you will need diodes.

I hope it make more sense now

Mark

Mark,

Yes it makes perfect sense to me now. I built my JT with the first LED soldered directly to the transistor and coil. The way I understand your idea to work is that I would simply remove the LED from my JT circuit and then add a 1 wire 1 turn pickup coil on the same toroid. And connect that to my LED bank to see how many LEDS I could run from that one pick up coil.

At that point I would add another 1 wire 1 turn pick up coil and try adding more LEDS to that.

Is that correct?

Thank you!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 11, 2009, 08:09:27 PM

Quote from: altrez on March 11, 2009, 08:01:33 PM
Mark,

Yes it makes perfect sense to me now. I built my JT with the first LED soldered directly to the transistor and coil. The way I understand your idea to work is that I would simply remove the LED from my JT circuit and then add a 1 wire 1 turn pickup coil on the same toroid. And connect that to my LED bank to see how many LEDS I could run from that one pick up coil.

At that point I would add another pick 1 wire 1 turn pick up coil and try adding more LEDS to that.

Is that correct?

Thank yo!

Yes it is !

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xenomorphlabs on March 11, 2009, 09:11:04 PM

@ jadaro2600

QuoteIs the toroid a conductor? Does it conduct on the inside?

Google : Eddy current

The coils also induce electron movement in the core material (considered as core loss)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 11, 2009, 09:37:25 PM

Quote from: altrez on March 11, 2009, 07:28:07 PM
@Mk1

I am using the bifilar coil. I just tried it again with 1 and 2 and 3 turns and just the LED tested each side of LED and it will not light?

Any ideas?

Bifilar for the two driving coils only - collector coil is a stand alone. This is where you wrap one two or three coils. Any load on that coil will effect the gains on the other coils.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 11, 2009, 09:40:30 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 11, 2009, 07:36:11 PM

i know why it behave like that, i simply didn't made the joint with what IST was talking about.
thanks

overdriving the base is not a real solution.
how can we limit the base feed when battery is full and amplify it when it get low.

the basic way i know would be a zener diode but that might screw up everything.
try your zener diode between the base and the - side.
using it as a variable resistor like you did can't really solve that problem entirely either.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 11, 2009, 09:46:27 PM

Quote from: xenomorphlabs on March 11, 2009, 09:11:04 PM
@ jadaro2600

Google : Eddy current

The coils also induce electron movement in the core material (considered as core loss)

Gosh! ...I'll just have to scrape the paint off one and check. ..and it doesn't appear to conduct.

Next time, to help telling someone to Google it appear less lazy and rude, you should just craft the search url for Googling it like this: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Eddy+currents&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq= (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Eddy+currents&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=) that way it makes it actually look like you've helped.

Telling someone to Google it is like telling them to go to the library ...want to hit it more on the head - just tell them to shell-out 40k for a college education.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 11, 2009, 09:49:21 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 11, 2009, 09:37:25 PM
Bifilar for the two driving coils only - collector coil is a stand alone. This is where you wrap one two or three coils. Any load on that coil will effect the gains on the other coils.

Ok , first 2 jt coils 1 to collector one to base with the resistor, basic jt . other coils are pick up coils only connected to bridge or any diode , otherwise it will not show on the meter.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 11, 2009, 09:54:54 PM

@ Mark:

Thanks for repeating this. Most don't seem to get it. We need the rectifier to see what is really happening or, maybe lighting a bunch of leds says the same thing but, testing with it rectified is the way to go. Thank you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on March 11, 2009, 09:57:10 PM

@all,
Gadgetmall has been very very sick, I last heard from him about a week ago, since then nothing.

jim

@ Koen1,
240v query.
How did I know the difference between both power supplies? Well it's hard to discribe, this is over 50 years ago,.

All I could say is I felt the power in Lae as smooth and effective, the power in Australia felt like it was harsh, as though it had a wild beast inside it, with a sharp saw tooth about it, like I said, difficult to discribe.

Koen, your post on P(376) you mentioned also that the voltage is averageing out at 230v, funny that because in Australia this is also occuring, there was an article in the Silicon Chip about this, I wasnt aware of this situation until I read it last week, so I am confused like you hmmmmm, wonder whats going on here? Big picture wize.

No, the Grid is powered by Hitension AC, 33,000 volts, this drops down via transformers to different feeds to eventually 240v (230V) 50cycles (Hz for those who like Hz lol.) for Town and City usage
There is 3 phase power line poles along my street, there is a transformer on 2 poles about a 100 yards away from me, this supplies a 3 phase to the town, I'm on a single phase.

I will answer your other post further down the page shortly.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 11, 2009, 10:06:30 PM

@ Jim:

When I worked for my father in his NJ machine shop, we installed 3 computer controlled diamond surface grinders. they had all sorts of problems and the techs came down many times from Boston (at our expense) to try to fix them. well one bright guy decided to put a metering device on the grid supplied power to see what was actually powering the machines. we found out that, even though we were paying for 220volt 3 phase power that many times during the day, it dipped to 175 volt and also sometimes went to 290 volt. Now this was 3 phase and it did a lot of damage to the computer circuits when this happened. The manufacturer said it was not their problem because the machines were designed to operate on a certain range of power input. Well, a spokesman for the local power company said that, under their requirements, they only had to supply an average voltage of 220 3 phase as measured over a one month period. He said it might go as low as 110 volts and as high as 350 volts and still be in "acceptable levels".

Bottom line is we were on the arm for all machinery repair due to this fluctuation. After a while, I replaced the internal components with stuff that could handle the real ranges a lot better.

So, we never really know what we are getting from the local power company.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 11, 2009, 10:09:58 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 11, 2009, 09:46:27 PM
Gosh! ...I'll just have to scrape the paint off one and check. ..and it doesn't appear to conduct.

i did not scrape the paint off it, i broked it and checked for the resistance inside.
core capable of higher frequency will be less conductive, more resistance.

i rechecked, the piece i found back is about half a yellow toroid, resistance show 32k ohms

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 11, 2009, 11:17:35 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on March 11, 2009, 10:09:58 PM
i did not scrape the paint off it, i broked it and checked for the resistance inside.
core capable of higher frequency will be less conductive, more resistance.

i rechecked, the piece i found back is about half a yellow toroid, resistance show 32k ohms

Thanks for that - it was informative. I'm in a rut lately.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on March 11, 2009, 11:57:49 PM

@Bill,
That was very interresting you said about the power company supply of "regulated" power.
I
n our town there is only one business, it has a huge electric motor to drive a grain conveyer, which loads the farmers trucks.

I have noticed when it is first turned on, the lights dimm down for a second then rises back up to normal brightness, then when this motor is switched off, the lights go very bright for a second then go back to normal brightness.
Same thing happens if something jams up the works.

Whats hapenning is the motor turns on, the windings see a huge short, the armature rotor spins up and the amps supplied to it seems to be amplified, then when the motor is shut off, the higher amps-power has to level itself out so it takes a second to do so.

I think my UPS sorts the highs and lows out automatically, when I check the UPS's log file I can see the ups and downs displayed, it matches the times this occurs.

Yep, Bill, if you got a big factory close to you that uses big heeps of power, then when they startup or shutdown this could cause those problems.

I.m worried about Gadget, Bill, very concerned.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 12, 2009, 12:15:26 AM

@ Jim:

I too am worried about Al. Maybe I can try to call him on Thursday. I know his daughter was sick, and then he got sick......I hope they both are OK.

I have been very busy but I will continue the other JT diagram topic as soon as I can.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 12, 2009, 01:20:56 AM

Quote from: TheNOP on March 11, 2009, 09:40:30 PM
i know why it behave like that, i simply didn't made the joint with what IST was talking about.
thanks

overdriving the base is not a real solution.
how can we limit the base feed when battery is full and amplify it when it get low.

the basic way i know would be a zener diode but that might screw up everything.
try your zener diode between the base and the - side.
using it as a variable resistor like you did can't really solve that problem entirely either.

That is the reason for my new jt windings. 2x on page 376 , so i don't need to go low to get speed.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on March 12, 2009, 01:26:26 AM

@Scienceman,

Ha ha, well you sure had me fooled, I thought you were all grownup like us old fogies he he. ;D

Anyway, since you are soooo keen to know about the Joule Thief, (it's a good topic and other stuff), I and the others can help you with it. ;)

One thing, don't be intimidated by anyone here, be bold, ask a question no matter how silly you think it may be, you never know, someone reading your request, will have an answer. We are all here to find out about the Joul Thief and to get as much out of it as possible.

ScienceMan, this forum has a very open mind, on just about anything, I have a problem with mice, ohh man do I get my leg pulled, but its all in good taste, others ask by Private Email, if you need to tell someone off, because you are cranky, wellllllllllllllllll, count to 10, ha ha, some times I go away, have a cupa T, think about it a bit, and then come back and answer. If you think I have made a mistake, then say so, I will not be offended.

When you get it working, and become experienced with your JT, you are going to notice that some of the devices will seem to do things that the text books say is impossible, but if you knew about "radent energy" and Nikola Tesla, (which the education system will never tell you about) then things might become more clear to you.

I'm going to tell you about 2 names of people who made amazing discoveries and inventions over one hundred years ago, they are Nikola Tesla and Nathan Stubblefield. Both these gentlemen knew each other, and were good friends, both had inventions, both had patients of the discoveries they made. As you study these men, you will come accross others who have made discoveries. Sooner or later, you will "know" that there are things happening in the science world that dosent seem right in some way or another, this I will leave for you to examine yourself, the answers are there, just go a bit deeper to get there. Dig around and look for Patents, they contain hidden secrets also.

Go to your local library and get out the books relating to these men if you can find them, ask the libranian to get them for you.
Reading them will show you of two men who made most of the discoveries in the electrical, if you decide to take up a career in electrical, you will probably not be told of the existance of these two men, or their discoveries,and there are reasons why this is so.

Ignorance is one of the main resons, because people back in those days were frightened by the things they did, and did not understand, we understand them as ordinary gifted people and know they are OK.

For instance, if you could get hold of a Phero of egypt and time machine him into today, then he would be frightened of the car, the light switch, the radio, the washingmachine, the plane, the water that goes through pipes, hot and cold at that, airconditiooning, the TV, the computer, what a gas this would be, then after he went back to his time, and told everybody about what he had seen, they would think he was nuts, bonkers, out of his cotton picking mind. cool thought ehhhhh

So this is what we on the JT do here, make and do the impossible.
Look at IST, one of our posters, he is a very learned man, he posts in crypt, you have to double and tripple read his posts to make out what he is up to. If you know what he is saying, then you will understand. Jeanna, the "lady" of the forum, she is incredably gifted in solving hard to find out stuff, she wont let go until there is an answer, most of us are like this, and I know you are one too.

The current way of the power mobs is to say there is only one way to make electric power, actually this is not true, google for "Cold" power or "radient" energy, there are other key words, you will come across devices that can heal all types of diseases, these have been suppressed. The "Rife" machine is one, every cell resonates at it's own frequency, so if you can put a signal at that frequency, the target will vibrate at it, if you apply power to this , it will be overloaded and fail, hmmmm.

If you get a car, you could make up a "browns gas" bubbler,or make up a HHO producer.

Power can be got from the air itself, via a vertical antenna wire, a sparkplug and a dead battery.
I have an idea to use a welding wire feed from a MIG welder spool, to do this, ha ha ha arrrrrrrr ist, fill a ist balloon with hydrogen (caustic soda and water and aluminium) this could be made to rise hundreds of feet high, even higher, higher you get the wire, the more voltage comes down the wire. Do this in a vacant area away from power lines. Use insulated tools or remote controlled rods and switches etc.

The deeper you research, the more you will find, there is another word to google "aeather" this also dosent exist as far as all the "science teachers say) 99999.99 persent of the world thinks this, you would be told you meant eather, a gas or anastethic.
Yes, there are discoveries to make.

Take a copper rod or pipe, about 12" long, drive it into the ground, (this is the North) now about 3 feet away, (to the south) drive in the ground a aluminium pipe or rod, now connect your DMM or multy meter to the copper, (+) and aluminium is the (-), and see what you have, set your meter on volts, low scale.

Pirate88179 has made several Utube videos you could take a look at.

Do a bit of research about "Chemtrails" and "vaccinations" at Rince.com

Save these web pages, as your data manual and read them.

Hope I havent overloaded you scienceman, I can tell that you are going to go real places and make discoveries.

So ScienceMan, I like all the others here will look forward to seeing your photos of your JT and the posts you make.

jim
;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on March 12, 2009, 01:50:22 AM

@ The NOP and MK1

Over driving the base.

I could be wrong here and please put me right if you think so, but I think we need to look for a AVC or Automatic Voltage Control circuit to incorporate into the JT.

As our battery gets lower, so the amps to drive the circuit get higher, and the volts get lower further, its an automatic thing, but the output gets lower as well.

A bit like the AVC in radios, (Automatic Volume Control), once you set the volume, this circuit keeps the volume pegged at that level, it only gets lower, if the threshold is passed by the setting pot, (the volume knob), because the battery got even lower..

If we could come up with a small component circuit, to compensate for this, then we might be able to get better results.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on March 12, 2009, 03:14:35 AM

@altrez,
LED's in parallel and in series, there is a reason for connecting them this way?, yes, well if using them in the preferred manner.

The LED is a current working device, one has to limit the amount of grunt being supplied to it, or if the LED is over supplied, it well have its life reduced, or it will fail.
To try and stop this hapenning, a resistor is placed in series between the LED and the source of the power.

Now, if you have connected your LEDs in parallel, you may have noticed one or two have different light output, this is becaue they are not identically made, or not derived from the same batch, so to get an even brightness, you should put a variable resistor between the LEG and power source, and brighten it until it shows the same brightness. Measure off the resistance with a DMM and solder in a fixed resistor of the amont shown on the DMM.

LED's in series are another matter, generally 1 resistor is soldered at the end of the "chain" of LED's.
The LEDS should show an even brightness, but still could be effected by some being not so exact as others.

This being stated, I have also noticed that LEDs seen on the Joule Thief circuits, seem to operate very well indeed without resistors, even though in several cases here, they seem to be operating far in excess of voltages presented to them, they also seem to display different properties, under the power of the JT, which flys in the face of my above statement.

I can have a LED turn on in one direction, then flip it 180 degrees, and it will still work in the other direction.
The trick is not to be too concerned about this hapenning, as amazing as this may seem to be, but I think it is because of the very hi frequencies the LED is subjected too. DC and AC behave very fifferent to the normal DC and AC are all used to in everyday life, and this JT brings confusion when trying to explain this.

Just accept it and flo with it, see if other devices work differently.
For example, someone recorded they had a electric motor run clockwise, then it slowed down, stopped and started up going anticlockwise, hmmmmm time lol.

Had an idea, oppps,,,,,, the tiniest electric motor I have ever seen is on one of those radio controlled infrahred helicopters, it is the tail rotor with a tiny prop on its shaft, this might run on a earth battery copper rod setup....

Sorry about taking so long to reply.
jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on March 12, 2009, 05:32:08 AM

regarding being able to flip led polarity, here is a neat experiment.
i'm assuming the use of a 1K resistor on the base of the transistor.
raise the resistance on the base of the transistor to 2K, now flip the led, is it brighter, dimmer or did it go out?
lower the resistance on the base of the transistor to less than 1K and repeat led test.

:o

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on March 12, 2009, 09:56:31 AM

Quote from: xenomorphlabs on March 11, 2009, 09:11:04 PM
Google : Eddy current

The coils also induce electron movement in the core material (considered as core loss)

If the core material is electrically conductive, like pure iron for example, then yes.
But if you're using quite nonconductive ferrite cores, then there shouldn't be
any Eddies. Obviously. ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on March 12, 2009, 11:00:43 AM

Quote from: electricme on March 11, 2009, 09:57:10 PM
@all,
Gadgetmall has been very very sick, I last heard from him about a week ago, since then nothing.

Yes, starting to worry here... If anyone knows what's going on with him, please let us know?
Bill? If you manage to phone him, please tell him we're all quite worried about him?

Quote@ Koen1,
240v query.
How did I know the difference between both power supplies? Well it's hard to discribe, this is over 50 years ago,.

All I could say is I felt the power in Lae as smooth and effective, the power in Australia felt like it was harsh, as though it had a wild beast inside it, with a sharp saw tooth about it, like I said, difficult to discribe.

Hmm yeah well I asked because I also got the impression that the grid output in some places is less "smooth";
I got the impression that the "harsh" current that some countries have is more like the non-smoothed AC
that many inverters put out, which is why I mentioned it.
I find that a bit odd still, for the places that had such "harsh" grid output that I visited also use high tension
lines to carry the power to the substations, and the substations look very similar to what we have around
here so it seemd strange to me that they'd put out so different a type of AC...
But then again, it could just be a matter of crappy workmanship... badly built transfomers or something...

QuoteKoen, your post on P(376) you mentioned also that the voltage is averageing out at 230v, funny that because in Australia this is also occuring, there was an article in the Silicon Chip about this, I wasnt aware of this situation until I read it last week, so I am confused like you hmmmmm, wonder whats going on here? Big picture wize.

Oh good, so I'm not the only one wondering. ;)
We used to have a fairly steady 220V here, and all appliances clearly stated that, but over the past decades it seems to have shifted
to an average of 230V, and most appliances now state 220-240V... I suppose it may have something to do with the linking of our
national power grid to those of the surrounding countries...

QuoteNo, the Grid is powered by Hitension AC, 33,000 volts, this drops down via transformers to different feeds to eventually 240v (230V) 50cycles (Hz for those who like Hz lol.) for Town and City usage
There is 3 phase power line poles along my street, there is a transformer on 2 poles about a 100 yards away from me, this supplies a 3 phase to the town, I'm on a single phase.

Ah yes, 3 phase. We have 2 phase here. We also do not have transformer boxes on poles, all our transformers are housed in little isolated boxes on the ground
or in slightly larger transformer shacks built of stone. All the wires run underground here, except of course for the high tension wires. Our telephone lines
also are underground. Makes for a lot less hassle with the weather; no problems with lightning hitting the poles or boxes, no poles blown over in a storm, etc.
I never really understood why some countries opted for 3-phase AC... I thought that was mainly usefull for higher tension? We have 3-phase on the industrial
lines over here, so factories, greenhouses, etc, they have a 3-phase higher tension feed that is on a seperate grid. But the average household only has 2-phase 230.

@ScienceMan/Boy ;)
Sorry for the late welcome, but: Welcome to the thread ;D

I think Jim gave some nice pointers. If you haven't done so yet, then i think it would indeed be a good idea
to read up a bit on Tesla. And Stubblefield, if you're interested in Earth Batteries. And well, kinda depends
if you're a reader or not, but if you are it might also be interesting to read some about Grey and his "splitting
the positive", Moray and his "radiant energy" amplifier, Kron and his "open path", Bedini and his "radiant energy
battery charging motor", and possibly Bearden's book "Energy from the Vacuum".

Besides the method of pulling energy from the air as Jim described, you could also do it differently;
http://www.rexresearch.com/tate/tate.htm and http://www.angelfire.com/ak5/energy21/ambientpower.htm
as well as this thread on the forum http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6972.msg162822#msg162822
describe a way to pull energy from the air using a few diodes, capacitors, and an antenna.
The antenna does not necessarily need to be high up in the air, a number of people claim to have
gotten similar output from an "antenna" stuck in the ground.

Not sure aboutthe chamtrails though... Jim, what's that about? ;)

Kind regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: ScienceMan on March 12, 2009, 11:08:05 AM

@ Electricme

Wow..... Thanks a ton load for the warm welcome and tips etc ;D... and yes, just the mi neut amount that I know about the JT already proves extremely interesting and "text book impossible". About a few months ago, my Dad introduced me to the Tesla and Bedini side of things (amazing things out there) and oh I wish we could learn these things at school. In fact, for this science project I am doing, I was previously going to do the Bedini Motor - radiant energy and all that and it blows my mind (amazing to think that we still use the same type of electricty that we did 100 years ago ???). I changed my mind though because in the science competition that I was going to enter into with this project, there had already been Bedini Motors so I decide to do something defferent... the JT.

So thank you again and I am now really really excited to get into the swing of things and get going...

And also @All, thanks for those of you who have also welcomed me and already given me tips, plans etc etc already (MK1, Altrez, TheNOP, Koen - Thanks) :)

Right... Time to get cracking with the JT ;D.....

ScienceMan

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 12, 2009, 02:32:57 PM

@ Electricme

Thank you so very much for the post. I am at work right now and plan to build my 4th JT tonight :) with all the great Ideas on this forum I tend to read more then work!

I noticed that Nathan Stubblefield's name gets mentioned quite allot around the forum I live in Kentucky just about 1 hour away from where he lived. Perhaps there is just something about us Kentucky boys and free energy!!!

GO WILDCATS!!

@Mk1

I am building the JT with the 1 wire output. Thank you for all the help. I will let you know when I get it working :)

@ScienceMan

You are welcome.

Take care!!!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 12, 2009, 03:10:04 PM

@ altrez:

Hey, I am in Bowling Green. I didn't know if you knew that or not.

@ Jim:

Great and very helpful posts you have been making. Thank you for doing so. Now, about those mice..... ha ha.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 12, 2009, 04:44:32 PM

Quote from: Koen1 on March 12, 2009, 09:56:31 AM
If the core material is electrically conductive, like pure iron for example, then yes.
But if you're using quite nonconductive ferrite cores, then there shouldn't be
any Eddies. Obviously. ;)

if it is "quite nonconductive" then there will be less magnetic coppling at lower frequencies.

cores material must be choosed base on the frequency you intend to work with.
no matter the core's material, it will have eddy currents in it, even plastic, given a high enough frequency.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on March 12, 2009, 08:05:08 PM

@electricme Pirate mk1 ist jeanna koen
Hey Guys . I'm Still Breathing but a bit weak and just have not been very well or felt like Jt'ing :) but i'm getting better . I hope you guys don't get this . its turned into Viral Namonia and it's hell cough. I like went from age 30 to 80 in a few weeks .I have never been sick like this before and it show me who was boss . I have to kick My self in the ass to get going and Do what Must be done. But i just got finished with supper for me and the little one and was thinking of you guys and what was going on .Thank you all for Think of me , that was real nice . Well i did play a little and i took My Modified Stickit light that runs for a week on an aaa battery and put and extra secondary on there and laid a spare aaa in there charging its little heart out while you have light :) that way you always have a hot battery to swap !! I like it and its going into a kit .. Eternity Stick it Gadget with Builtin Charger ! nice and Bright .. .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 12, 2009, 08:35:31 PM

Al:

Glad to hear you are doing a bit better. We were getting worried about you.

Nice work on the light. I like the idea and I'll bet you could sell a bunch of them.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 12, 2009, 09:11:02 PM

@Mk1

I cant seem to get the pick up coil to work. I have tried just about everything and it simply will not light one LED. I have built 3 different JT all with out the LED and tested them first to make sure they where working. On the other side of the toroid I wrapped 1 turn of wire and nothing. Went up to 4 turns and never got it to light. I used 3 different types of wire for the pick up coil and still no results? I even wrapped the wire on top of the bifilar wire and still it never worked?

I also used 4 different leds and tested them all on each JT before hand to make sure it was working. However I can not get the pickup coil working. Any ideas?

@Pirate88179

I am in Hopkins County :) about 130 miles away from BG I think.

Thanks!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 12, 2009, 09:40:03 PM

Quote from: altrez on March 12, 2009, 09:11:02 PM
@Mk1

I cant seem to get the pick up coil to work. I have tried just about everything and it simply will not light one LED. I have built 3 different JT all with out the LED and tested them first to make sure they where working. On the other side of the toroid I wrapped 1 turn of wire and nothing. Went up to 4 turns and never got it to light. I used 3 different types of wire for the pick up coil and still no results? I even wrapped the wire on top of the bifilar wire and still it never worked?

I also used 4 different leds and tested them all on each JT before hand to make sure it was working. However I can not get the pickup coil working. Any ideas?

@Pirate88179

I am in Hopkins County :) about 130 miles away from BG I think.

Thanks!

Make a bifilar jt first to get , it working , 10 turns should do . the pickup coils will work any way, also did the led work in its collector to emiteur regular connection.

You have done a working jt already then disregard comment , so take the one you have to test first , just put a additional coil , it the jt is bifilar the place you put the pickup coil is very important . Some toroid just dont work well in the mk type windings they need more turns to be effective with those you go bifilar.

I use 4 turns one the jt side because my toroid permits it first .

Mark

@gadget

Welcome back !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on March 12, 2009, 09:55:21 PM

Altrez wind your secondary the opposite and see if you light it that way . Its polarized and the loop has to be one way or the other . Weird i know .

Gadget .. Master of the milliamp :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 12, 2009, 09:57:30 PM

@Mk1

My bifilar JT coils work great and I have made 4 different ones. I can run 15 LEDS off of each one I tested. The first one I made I left the LED in the Circuit but after I read your post to remove it I did so. I tested it by touching the leads of the LED to the regular hook up on the transistor and it worked great! I then tried the pickup coil and it simply will not light one LED no matter how or where I put it on the toroid. I just tried 22 AWG magnet wire from radio shack as a 12 turn pick up coil and it will not light one LED. I tested all the connections and I also tested the magnet wire to make sure it had a good connection to the led. I also went up to 3 volts on my JT circuit to see if that would work. No luck :(

Thanks for all the help.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on March 12, 2009, 10:05:52 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 12, 2009, 09:40:03 PM
Make a bifilar jt first to get , it working , 10 turns should do . the pickup coils will work any way, also did the led work in its collector to emiteur regular connection.

You have done a working jt already then disregard comment , so take the one you have to test first , just put a additional coil , it the jt is bifilar the place you put the pickup coil is very important . Some toroid just dont work well in the mk type windings they need more turns to be effective with those you go bifilar.

I use 4 turns one the jt side because my toroid permits it first .

Mark

@gadget

Welcome back !

Hi Mark I agree . Some torroids like a yellow one i have here wont work Mk2 Style or any other style other than a piss ant bit of light no matter how many or less turns . I usually can know if the torroid is any good if just 3 to 7 turns of twin wire . If it don't light the normal way BRIGHT its a piece of trash . Hunt for more !!! I got one i thought was plastic it was so light weight but a magnet sticks to it and it works very good ..

Gadget ..
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 12, 2009, 10:06:16 PM

@altrez

First take the one working but without the led then try a coil on it make sure you don't put the coil over the ends of the jt coil, it worked for everyone , so there is something wrong , do you have a camera , also what is the transistor and resistor you use. and you tried the led directly on the pickup coil and nothing else on it , no connection to the battery here.

Mark

Edit also the magwire is coated you need to remove those at the end of the wire for it to work, just use a lighter 22 gauge will not burn , but don't try that with 39 it just burns away.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 12, 2009, 10:27:46 PM

@all

On the mk8 i connected all the pickup coil in series , starting at 4 coil i get sparks when the ends touch each other , i am still having issue with connecting then together matching them to get the full output.

But its a great unit.

i get about 100 volt per 30 inch pickup coils , i tested up to 90 inch.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 12, 2009, 10:36:07 PM

I got a idea , smoke alarm , are built around electric sensor could those be used to get more energy from those toroid jt. Maybe more effective then am tuner.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 12, 2009, 10:41:07 PM

@Mk1

You recently posted a toroid design where the coils crossed the toroid; did this work?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 12, 2009, 10:53:25 PM

@gadgetmall

Hello! I did try winding it different ways and it made no difference.

@Mk1

I now have 5 working JT circuits and not one of them will work with a pick up coil :( I have tried 1 turn and I just tired 12 turns and nothing works. The only thing I have connected to the pick up coil is the LED and I have switched that back and forth. I even made what I call a floating loop coil where I can move the coil around on the toroid to find a sweet spot. It never worked!

So I have tried it now 25 different ways with 5 different types of wire. It must be my toroid s I got them from radio shack :( the JT's work and will light 30 LEDS from 1 AA battery!!!!!!!! However I can not get any configuration of a pick up coil to even flicker 1 led. I will take pictures tomorrow night and post them I must be doing something very wrong!

Thanks for all the help!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 12, 2009, 10:55:29 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 12, 2009, 10:41:07 PM
@Mk1

You recently posted a toroid design where the coils crossed the toroid; did this work?

It did what i needed it to do , at first i tried 3x3 so 6 per side, then 2x2 4 per side, my goal was to get it working in range for my toroid with larger base resistor , and yes it worked. And it bogs me a bit, those will need to be added after the pickup coil , and that i am not used to .

So i guess i hate that it worked making my job a bit harder.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 12, 2009, 11:14:35 PM

@Altrez

Ok so you did try to connect the led in both way, try changing the battery polarety , so neg to positive , and test the led again .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on March 12, 2009, 11:24:16 PM

Quote from: altrez on March 12, 2009, 10:53:25 PM
@gadgetmall

Hello! I did try winding it different ways and it made no difference.

@Mk1

I now have 5 working JT circuits and not one of them will work with a pick up coil :( I have tried 1 turn and I just tired 12 turns and nothing works. The only thing I have connected to the pick up coil is the LED and I have switched that back and forth. I even made what I call a floating loop coil where I can move the coil around on the toroid to find a sweet spot. It never worked!

So I have tried it now 25 different ways with 5 different types of wire. It must be my toroid s I got them from radio shack :( the JT's work and will light 30 LEDS from 1 AA battery!!!!!!!! However I can not get any configuration of a pick up coil to even flicker 1 led. I will take pictures tomorrow night and post them I must be doing something very wrong!

Thanks for all the help!

Hi . As a last resort put a diode on your secondary and get the voltage reading .. try to light it that way ok .?

edit**** but you must disconnect the normal collector em miter leds first ... i got a few rs ones and they work fine . one note here is i have several leds that wont light on a jt either but they will light up on 3 volts dc .. I havent figuared that one out yet . only thing is they must take too much current to light ..

Gadget

@ IST

Where are you Boy ? Did you Fly away with you know who ? "E"

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on March 13, 2009, 02:30:29 AM

@ Gadget
Welcome back man, ohhhhh we thought you was going to die for sure, I can tell you are OK now, you giving cheek ha ha.
Seriously Al, we were all very very concerned for you and your little girl, good thing she jogged your memory about the forum, she gets a BIG GOLD STAR for doing that in my book. You owe her a double icecream in the summer time, lol.

@scienceman,
Ha ha, you and your dad are gonna have a lot of study to do he he, but it is a joy to study up on something you like doing.
Did you see those web sites posted, heeps of em, now I betta go and take a looksee too or you will begin to know more than this old fella.

@MK1
Did I read this right Mark, you got sparks out of a Joule Thief, you not imagining this? because sparks mean GRUNT, AMPS.
And this means we are very very close to getting 1.5v to drive a 12v motor or a resistance load.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on March 13, 2009, 02:42:25 AM

@Wilbe,
Your post on 380, the test you suggest, my JT wont light above 1k ohms, but if I drop the resistance, the LED gets brighter and brighter, and I have noticed one thing, for some reason, it is almost impossible to over drive the LED if it is connected between the Emitrer and Collector. The LED gets very bright, as I use my resistance wheel.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 13, 2009, 03:12:22 AM

@electricme

I swear to god , sparks , you got to try this , you have what seems to me like the best toroid (the green one )to try this.
I just finish a new mk1 , 4 jt turns 22 bell, 15 foot 30 gauge , i get 670 rectified dc, i did not tune it yet , and i got to do the other side.

But the mk8 , charges caps so fast , 16 at a time , scary truly.sparks , and dose a fuji sound.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 13, 2009, 03:26:27 AM

I just ordered a bunch of 'crap' ...some Schottky diodes, toroids, transistors, ...capacitors, etc. Perhaps I'll be able to make a decent Joule Thief later this week.

Things are cloudy with a chance of meatballs.

- - - -
I'm still wondering if the ingnition coil design may be a different approach to the toroid element of the joule thief;

Taking such an approach would mean using two different ignition coils with a switched ( alternated ) connection between the two of them.

+ ( ignition 1 ) X ( ignition 2 ) = resistor-base \ collector ...etc. Passing the inner coil of one to the outer coil of another, reverse the connection.

It's too bad I don't have a more flexible method of diagramming circuits.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 13, 2009, 03:29:46 AM

If I'm expecting 900 volts of rectified DC voltage ..and I only have two capacitors capable of 500 volts each - is it a safe bet to hook them in series to measure the voltage.

..Wouldn't connecting the two give them the ability to withstand 1000 volts since it acts like a voltage divider?

-||---||-

?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 13, 2009, 03:34:38 AM

@all

Well now i don't get it the first 2 test gave me about 650 volts , i took a break to have a smoke then got bat to it now it only gives me 250 dc, and 135 ac , i will have to test some more , so that is not so conclusive , nut has of right now , the mk8 is still delivering more power , but there is something i am missing now .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on March 13, 2009, 03:56:10 AM

@Koen, and to ALL

I read your post where you asked me about Chemtrails.

I looked outside just now and saw this pic I have just taken.
The 3 long fuzzy clouds are 3 chemtrails which are dispersing.
I also noticed that Haarp was going this morning overhead this morning.

Here is a link to some proof of "poisen clouds"

There are two documentaries which have been made, shocking and very upfront.
here are the web addresses to download from, go to the bottom of the page,
save to HD or CD, they are big files.

http://www.worldwithoutparasites.com/chemtrails.html#documentaries

Break out the kooo-ka-kola n pepsi with the jubes and popcorn, settle down to the pictures.

0002.jpg and 0006.jpg = my place on the 10th jan 2009
0517.jpg = looking NNE 13th march 2009

jim

@Gadget,
Get some MMS into you if you want to get rid of that bad chest infection, here go here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeZsY7iMiqc.
http://www.mmsfacts.com/tag/jim-humble

If things get so bad you carnt breathe, or there is a chemical smell in the air, you need to clean the air.

If you need an air filter, make up a water tank, out of a 20ltr drum, put the aircompressor outletlet into the bottom of the drum, half fill it with water, add some dishwashing deturgent, or something that will bind the junk to the water, not too much, you don't want bubbles all over the place. Then turn on the compressor to drive chemair through the water, any junk cloud chem will dissolve in the water, clean air bubbles to the top, just let the clean air in the house.

Air filters will not stop the tinest chemtrail junk, only a air water filter will do it properly.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on March 13, 2009, 04:23:20 AM

@ MK1
If you really are getting these results then this is a very big breakthrew.

You know you will be responsible for these pages galloping along llol.

Mark, do everyone a favor and post a pic of this JT and if it's not too much troub post the circuit, TA

This is really goodie goodie gumdrops stuff.

I gotta get my green torids out n get them replicating MK1s success

Man the skeeters are really bad tonight.

Just gota message Prince Charles (AC) said the global warming will last for 100 months, hmmmm he is running the program, top mason, top in the iluminarti, and all that stuff.
Think he got cheek.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 13, 2009, 05:24:52 AM

@Jim

For the most power the mk8 is real good i posted it a few pages back, but the mk1 is still under test it got 650 volts dc then 670 , then dropped down to 250 volt rectified , on the ac side over 150 v, but can't get it back up to 650, but there are sparks , with both but the mk8 works better .

the new mk1 is strange , when charging a cap it starts slow and goes faster and noisier . basic jt 4 turns
2n2222,1k trim pot, i may have broken the diodes ; i will need to test, as soon as the bridge is connected i get some high pitch noise.

Mark

so the new mk1 has 15 foot of 30 magwire perside, the mk8 8x 30 inch per side the twisted into one wire.

Edit i just tried a new bridge and the first 2 times again it was over the limit of my meter over 1000 volt
rectified dc , but the again on the third time it went down to 220 , i must be dreaming , could i have busted 2 bridge .( d5sba20 and d3sba60)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 13, 2009, 06:33:53 AM

Quote from: electricme on March 13, 2009, 02:30:29 AM
Did I read this right Mark, you got sparks out of a Joule Thief, you not imagining this? because sparks mean GRUNT, AMPS.

not exactly true.
corona discharge don't need big amps.
static electricity give visible sparks too.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on March 13, 2009, 07:30:56 AM

http://www.brojon.org/features/brojonstory.html

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on March 13, 2009, 09:53:51 AM

Quote from: electricme on March 13, 2009, 03:56:10 AM
@Koen, and to ALL

I read your post where you asked me about Chemtrails.

I looked outside just now and saw this pic I have just taken.
The 3 long fuzzy clouds are 3 chemtrails which are dispersing.
I also noticed that Haarp was going this morning overhead this morning.

Here is a link to some proof of "poisen clouds"

There are two documentaries which have been made, shocking and very upfront.
here are the web addresses to download from, go to the bottom of the page,
save to HD or CD, they are big files.

http://www.worldwithoutparasites.com/chemtrails.html#documentaries

Break out the kooo-ka-kola n pepsi with the jubes and popcorn, settle down to the pictures.

Lol OK thanks, I got me a film to watch tonight. ;)

I have heard much about chemtrails before, including the claim that chemtrail goo was
tested and showed extreme amounts of Barium, which later turned out to be nonsense
as the concentration was misread as "percent" instead of "parts per million" or something
like that... I believe that original claim is also featured in Metallica's video clip "All Nightmare Long",
at the very end where chemtrails are briefly mentioned.

I have read various claims on the chemtrail subject; some claim the chemtrails are intended for
weather control, others claim they tie in with HAARP projects, others claim they contain weird
bacteria cultures, others claim they contain poisonous chemicals intended to infect the population...
... and then there's people that claim there's no such thing, that it's just a matter of busy airways,
condensation trails, and some of the kerosine that airlines dump as standard procedure before
landing. This latter explanation could account for the chemical smell and skin irritation that some
people claim to experience from chemtrails...

I don't know. I live about 30km from our nation's largest airforce base and Apaches, F16s, Chinooks,
Hercules, and all kinds of planes fly overhead every day, as well as the international sky lanes
criscrossing overhead right next to the airforce fly zones, and I don't see any chemtrails ever.
Oh sure, every now and then I see a thin condensation trail but it's nothing like the pictures
I see on chemtrail websites where the sky is literally covered in criss-crossing exhaist trails.
So it could be anything. Could be that your government is indeed spraying you guys with nasty
chemicals just for fun, could be they're secretly boosting your collective immune systems by
gradually exposing the population to increasing levels of germs, could be that they are just very
bad at planning skylanes and very good at making themselves look suspect, I don't know.

What do you believe it is?

Quote@Gadget,
Get some MMS into you if you want to get rid of that bad chest infection, here go here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeZsY7iMiqc.
http://www.mmsfacts.com/tag/jim-humble

Hmm well I studied the MMS story a bit and it comes down to Sodium Chlorate solution.
The "Miracle Mineral Supplement" is nothing more than sodium chlorate pool cleaner in water.
Just a little of the stuff is enough to kill bacteria and many parasites, but not to have much negative
effect on the human body. Too much, on the other hand, is also not at all healthy to humans.
Humble claims to have cured all kinds of stuff with it, from the common cold to malaria to hiv even.
Mind you, it only works with chlorate, not with chlorides. The sodium part is not necessary, the
chlorate, ClO^3-, is the active component. Or so Humble claims.
Chlorate is officially labeled as a very active oxidiser that should not be ingested, by the way.

QuoteAir filters will not stop the tinest chemtrail junk, only a air water filter will do it properly.

Interesting... has the chemtrail stuff been tested for ultra fine particles?
I recently read an extensive article on the explosive increase of asthma and bronchitis in developing
countries, and the very strong suspicion which was now being tested and seemingly being confirmed
that these respiratory and immune system conditions that asthma and allergies are, have a strong link
with the increase in the use of diesel fuels. It was found that the extremely fine particles of the size and
type predominantly produced in the combustion of diesel fuels have a dramatic effect on a certain
protein complex related to the human immune system. This complex apparently serves to alert the
immune system and stimulate active response to various parasitic infections, which result in the
immune system going into overdrive and getting rid of the parasites before they have had a chance
to settle in. The studies showed how people that live in or have relatively recently migrated from
the jungle regions of Africa, where the number of parasites is very high and infections are common,
appear to have a genetic predisposition for a much more active and aggressive variant of this immune
response than the average European for example. This would account for the fact that specifically
Africans and their descendants seem to experience explosive increases in the occurence of
asthma, allergies, and respiratory ailments when they move to or live in a region where diesel fuels
are used extensively. Developing countries where economic growth is accompanied by increased
use of diesel fuels also show a directly related increase in such immune diseases. In countries
of similar stature and demographic composition where gasoline is used instead of diesels,
this increase is a lot less dramatic and the link is not so clear.
Obviously there's lots of other people that get such diseased besides people with an African
background, but there does appear to be a relation to originating from people that have
lived in jungle or bush for generations.
Further study is needed, but the article did mention that researchers were now looking at
the exhaust fumes of commercial airliners as another possible source of such fine particles.
One thing seems clear: the ultra fine particles in exhaust fumes of combustion engines
can apparently provoke our immune systems to an overkill response, causing all kinds of
ailments in the "allergy" field, and it seems very plausible that the enormous amounts
of fumes produced by airplanes have a similar effect.
People living in areas that are below busy airlanes would experience such effects many times over.
Even if the fumes were normal engine exhaust and nothing chemtraily would be going on.

Wowsers...

Okay, sorry for all that off topic stuff people,

Back on topic! ;D

JTing across the universe ;)

Regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 13, 2009, 10:31:46 AM

@Mk1

Here are a few pics, 1 of the coil and 1 of my LED test panel. I have tried this 30 diffrent ways and simply can not get any voltage from the secondary on any JT setup I have. If you look closely at the pick coil I made you will see the secondary of Magnet wire. I also left a white secondary of cat5 cable just as a point of reference I have also tried phone wire. I have tried 1 turn up to 33 turns of magnet wire on the secondary and it will not light an LED. I have also put a diode across the wire and it shows no voltage.

I tested all the pick up coils I made for continuity and they all test fine. I switched LEDS out flipped them replaced battery's changed polarity I simply have no idea why I can not make this work. It seems like it should be fairly simple. What could I be doing wrong??

Thank you all so much for the help.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 13, 2009, 01:51:50 PM

@altrez

Hi tell me , what wire is that , first its loose ,tight those wires, they need to be well done , what transistor do you use and resistor. The wire direction seams ok, but i don't know your blue toroid , try more turns keep bifilard for now but make it all the way around, with some room.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 13, 2009, 01:57:47 PM

@Mk1

Thank you for spending so much time to help me figure this out. I have a 1 k resistor and the npn3904 transistor. The wire for the bifilar coil is from a CAT5 ethernet cable. The toroid is from radio shack.

Thanks!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 13, 2009, 02:40:42 PM

Quote from: altrez on March 13, 2009, 01:57:47 PM
@Mk1

Thank you for spending so much time to help me figure this out. I have a 1 k resistor and the npn3904 transistor. The wire for the bifilar coil is from a CAT5 ethernet cable. The toroid is from radio shack.

Thanks!

No fair, my Radioshack doesn't sell much of anything, let alone toroids.

Can someone tell me why I would want to use a PNP transistor rather than an NPN transistor and why there is an operational difference?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 13, 2009, 02:43:12 PM

Quote from: altrez on March 13, 2009, 01:57:47 PM
@Mk1

Thank you for spending so much time to help me figure this out. I have a 1 k resistor and the npn3904 transistor. The wire for the bifilar coil is from a CAT5 ethernet cable. The toroid is from radio shack.

Thanks!

Ok , your wire is multi tread , or single , single work best and is easy to twist around the toroid, that will look better and work also , and there will be more space on the toroid, those toroid may need more turn to be effective , so lets go all the way around first , make it work with the jt light , really make sure your transistor is connected properly , because the connector and emmiteur are reversible
but really work both ways but are not working as good.

When done test again with a pickup coil over the other coils

That should get you started , you need to learn about your toroid , and how many turns needed.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 13, 2009, 03:12:34 PM

@Mk1

Ok here is my plan of attack for this evening. I am going to rewind the toroid all the way around. I am then going to test it with my LED strip. If all looks good at that point I will wrap a pickup coil around the toroid and post what happens.

Thank you!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: ScienceMan on March 13, 2009, 03:21:21 PM

@all

I'm in the middle of winding a coil but I'v got something to ask...

What are the black dots by the coil symbol in some circuit diagrams? ???

And also, does it matter in which direction I wind the coils?

Thanks

SciMan

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 13, 2009, 03:39:17 PM

@ScienceMan

It indicates coil direction , you can worry about it later when its time to connect everything to the transistor .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on March 13, 2009, 03:43:58 PM

@all

I just finished reading about 20 pages now!!!

Quote from: ScienceMan on March 13, 2009, 03:21:21 PM
@all

I'm in the middle of winding a coil but I'v got something to ask...

What are the black dots by the coil symbol in some circuit diagrams? ???

And also, does it matter in which direction I wind the coils?

Thanks

SciMan

The black dots on a coil representation mean that those ends are winded on the same side. Almost always those dots are situated on the two end wires of the bifilar coil in this case.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on March 13, 2009, 06:32:30 PM

Just to put the chemtrail issue to bed...on this thread at least.

If they were in any way beneficial, we would have long been hearing through the media how well our leaders were looking after us.

But its like pulling teeth to get them to acknowledge they exist.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on March 13, 2009, 08:35:47 PM

@Koen
My excellent friend, I can see that you are in need of proof that MMS does what it is claimed to do.

I will be a TEST guinea pig, just for you. ;D

Having lived in a tropical country for 23 years (new Guinea) and a sub tropical country (Australia) just below the tropic of capricorn, I have a number of skin cancers on both arms. The Dr removed one about 5 years ago on my left leg calf area, he chopped one out of my right upper ear lobe. >:(

All the others, the doctor freezes them off using nitrogen, it stings like crasy for hours afterwards, it hurts like I have had a red hot poker applied, and the area forms a blister, and in a week or two, it drops off. >:(

Last year I heard about MMS, soooo I bought a MMS kitt, set it up at home and dosed myself. :)

Then I decided the taste was just tooooo awful, so I made up a single drop of MMS with 5 drops of activator, waited for the regulatery 3 minutes, and put this mixture drop by drop on the skin cancers on my right arm.
I did this for 2 to 3 weeks. :o

I did not treat my left arm, I left it as it was to compair. (I'm glad I did). ;)

The area around the skin cancers became redened and swollen as the MMS worked, I did several applications each day, which in the end, was too much, it gave me a chemical burn, however, I put up with it as it really didn't trouble me. The drops did tend to spread and they had an effect on where it went, but I tried to localise it to the skin cancer as best as I could.

Now ALL the skin cancers on my right arm have dissappeared, all swelling has left, the skin is smooth except for old age wrinkles. The hair follicoles are not effected, it looks excellent. ;D

My LEFT arm still has the skin cancers, not many now but there is one that is a stubbon one, but I did not treat it.

I will begin to treat this arm, tomorrow, and you all can see the progress for your selves.
I have taken a photo of it and will post it below.

BTW, MMS is being banned in Australia, must be something about it that the DC dont like about it.
I'm not interrested in paying out dollars until the day I die to them, and be in bad health, it's my right as a humanbeing to take good care of my body, by good food, clean air and water.

Koen, do you accept the challenge,,,,,,,,, :D

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on March 13, 2009, 08:48:08 PM

Quote from: Cap-Z-ro on March 13, 2009, 06:32:30 PM
Just to put the chemtrail issue to bed...on this thread at least.

If they were in any way beneficial, we would have long been hearing through the media how well our leaders were looking after us.

But its like pulling teeth to get them to acknowledge they exist.

Regards...

They are Real and they are Killing us off one by one . I never saw them in the 60's nor the 70's nor the 80's but in the early 90's they started to appear . It would take a perfectly Blue sky day and turn them into a Miserable overcast whitish diffused sun day . Now just about every morning i get up before the sun does and i already see 8 or 9 chemtrails starting to expand into what looks like white clouds . I know you all see them too. there everywhere and the thing is only the blackjet make them . I can see two jets on the same altitude side by side and one is a standard airliner and its trail dissipates within a few hundred feet . the other white smoke that dosnt go away . I HATE YOU CIA I hate YOU FBI i HATE YOU HOMELAND SECURITY > KILL ME LIKE YOU HAVE ALL THE OTHERS FOR THEM TRYING TO DO GOOD FOR HUMANITY . YOU WILL NOT SUCCEED AND WILL DIE BEFORE THE LAST PATRIOT DOES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry .. you may now return to your regular scheduled death !

PS .. I am a GOD FEARING PERSON WHO LOVES LIFE AND HE NEEDS EVERYONE OF US TO STAND UP FOR OURSELVES SOOO.... BUT if anyone has Tesla's DEATH RAY PLANS please CONTACT ME As I would LOVE TO GO bird HUNTING !! YES I WOULD !. :-\

Thanks Jim . Im off to see a movie ..

;)
Gadget ,,

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on March 13, 2009, 10:41:13 PM

Quote from: ScienceMan on March 13, 2009, 03:21:21 PM
@all

I'm in the middle of winding a coil but I'v got something to ask...

What are the black dots by the coil symbol in some circuit diagrams? ???

And also, does it matter in which direction I wind the coils?

Thanks

SciMan

It does not matter which direction you wind the coils.
Fold the wire in half. Wind wire through toroid. when done you will have 2 physical coils of wire, coil A and Coil B.
One end of the coils would be A1 and B1 the other end of the coils would be A2 and B2.
The dots on the drawings are showing that wires A1 and B2 are connected together.
When done, you will have 3 connections to the toroid, A2, A1+B2, B1
It doesn't matter the order in which A2 or B1 are used.

Hope this helps

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on March 13, 2009, 10:48:58 PM

Its down to a battle for the attention of the masses gadget.

What must be overcome is the conditioning process that has them totally influenced by the brainwashing box...which is the tool of psychopathic murders.

Hope you and your family are doing better...take the advice offered above and check out b0rgs 'cancer cure' thread for many other important health remedies.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on March 13, 2009, 11:36:56 PM

Quote from: Cap-Z-ro on March 13, 2009, 10:48:58 PM
Its down to a battle for the attention of the masses gadget.

What must be overcome is the conditioning process that has them totally influenced by the brainwashing box...which is the tool of psychopathic murders.

Hope you and your family are doing better...take the advice offered above and check out b0rgs 'cancer cure' thread for many other important health remedies.

Regards...

Yes i agree. i fired up a batch of Colloidal silver tonight . .. In the Meantime I am going to hit the Military Surplus scrap yard tomorrow and see if i can scrape up a few thousand pounds of wire and transformers(those big power station ones i saw there ) and a Couple of thousand caps :) Yea i'll rig me up a nice toroid with a point on it . Muhahahahah .. Master of the googlewatt ??? And this is for My Gal . Ain't nobody going to hurt you again baby.

Ps . No wonder they want to get rid of Transmitters, vhf uhf vlf towers and limit an amateur radio operator to Digital communications . The Digital Change on Tv is a Big part of this . Take it from a Ham operator of 26+ years .. Ive seen the change .. When the Government Lies they Lose My Vote and its war they are imposing on Us the people . Take a STAND and they call it terrorism As they Kill us all off one by one .One can't do it but all of us can by the Grace of God.

Albert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on March 13, 2009, 11:55:23 PM

@ Gadgetmall

Glad to see your back and in better health, I don't know about that last drawing though...easy does it....LOL...2 much POWER ???

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on March 14, 2009, 12:23:21 AM

Quote from: Goat on March 13, 2009, 11:55:23 PM
@ Gadgetmall

Glad to see your back and in better health, I don't know about that last drawing though...easy does it....LOL...2 much POWER ???

Regards,
Paul

Hi Paul . Just trying out to even the odds .. now if everybody builds them one who gonna stop us now .. Yea .. ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 14, 2009, 02:51:22 AM

Hey Al, you can't post the HAARP plans here, we will get into trouble. Where is Tesla when we need him?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 14, 2009, 03:36:26 AM

I fully expect every Joule Thief replication to be insanely different...and I have come to realize that not everyone reads posts in their entirety or threads for that matter.

@all,

If you've seen some of my posts, you know that I've created a ferrite-free design which employed a coil about a coil.

I was wondering ( in the late stagnation of this thread and the subsequent wandering toward chemtrails ( oil vapor - which I see all too often living near an air-force base an all ) ) ... if anyone has had any secondary thoughts about coil design which did not use ferrite?

This type of design would be something scalable and wouldn't require the specificity of any material other than the gage of wire and the general configuration - perhaps a special setup? ..an ignition coil setup or something random like that.

Lately, I've asked myself a few questions regarding how this device could be improved to be more flexible when it comes to replicating without extreme deviations in baseline design ( sort of like a standard ); Not that I wish to regulate anyone's creativity, however, the presence of such a multitude of designs can create confusion for anyone wanting to 'get started'...I also understand that I'm just asking for more, and varied, designs - which is totally hypocritical.

Since not everyone has access to ferrite toroids, and not every toroid is the same; my initial designs were made without them, however the perpendicularity of the magnetic fields causes some question as to their efficacy - generally speaking, it's like having a voltage collecting sleeve around a ring-shaped coil, and thus it collects a minimal amount of voltage when the magnetic filed collapses - which brought to mind an interesting reversal of the input and output terminals on the coil. To my surprise, the voltage gain was the same in either configuration. Any attempts to add a tertiary coil to the design nullified any gains. Remember, this isn't your average coil setup...

Anyway, I've added many configuration images to this thread, as well as posted many circuit diagrams. My request is for any information any of you might have on alternative ferrite-free or toroid-free coil configurations.

I've posted an image of the first ferrite-free coil that worked for me.

I'm aware of ignition coils, but the National High Magnetics Laboratory ( which I've been to and toured ), has a demonstration on these devices which is informative, but not the best example.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on March 14, 2009, 05:19:26 AM

@jadaro2600,

Your idea of making a benchmark is worthy, but as you have also realise, we all have different torrids and setups, and I am about to post another setup, which to my thinking has never been done before, anywhere at all.

Your above post has jogged my memory.
For some time I have been thinking of a way to harness the magnetic flow "inside" the torid, not winding a wire around the outside of the torid.

1 wind a coil of copper wire on a broom handle, take the "coil" off the broom handle and carefully bring both coil ends around to face each other.

2 get a former, say a cake baking tray that has a centre hole in it. (It makes donut cakes).

3 make up a mixture of iron filings, and if you can, powder a torrid or 10 and mix the lot up in some binding agent, say glue, lots of araldite slow setting stuff.

4 poor some of this mix into the former tray.

5 lift the coil you just made, and plonk it inside the baking tray.

6 poor in the rest of the mix and let it all set.

This is the only way to make your own torid to see if you can capture the flowing magnetic field in a torid.

I havent see ist posting for awhile, hmmmm ist, is all ok with you?

I got 2 micies, eeeeehhhhhhr

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xenomorphlabs on March 14, 2009, 08:43:43 AM

QuoteGosh! ...I'll just have to scrape the paint off one and check. ..and it doesn't appear to conduct.

Next time, to help telling someone to Google it appear less lazy and rude, you should just craft the search url for Googling it like this: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Eddy+currents&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq= that way it makes it actually look like you've helped.

Telling someone to Google it is like telling them to go to the library ...want to hit it more on the head - just tell them to shell-out 40k for a college education.

Please add to your user profile that you want to be treated with velvet gloves in this forum.
If you take offense even in well-meant replies addressed to you, then you might have had a bad day?
All you are saying is YOUR interpretation, i was just trying to help, which was obviously a waste of time.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on March 14, 2009, 12:12:14 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on March 14, 2009, 02:51:22 AM
Hey Al, you can't post the HAARP plans here, we will get into trouble. Where is Tesla when we need him?

Bill

Hi Bill as you can see i'm a bit TEEED :)Because everyone is getting sick and sicker of the Pathogens and poison in our air. Anyways what i posted is Public Domain (well in another country at least ) and i assure you the HARRP plans are Public Domain as well . Its a Very high powered Very Low Frequency Meggawatt Transmitter . It is very Simular to Teslas Peace Ray .

@jarado
And no Jarado its not "oil Vapor" i live near an air base also .(actually i am at ground ZERO 50 miles between three major airbases) they are very careful about there exauses .. What i'm talking about is the SPRAYING Chemtrails . If you have a good telescope like i do you can see its not exhaust from the motors . As far as Experimenting with Ignition Coils thats a bit expensive and its cheaper to order your torroids than it would be to go to autozone and buy an ignition coil for 45 bucks .. Plus you can wind a much better Tesla coil with plans already on the internet . Mk1 has the best High voltage Design with the exception of the first one to light up a cfl and thats slayer007 . . You need IRON or Ferrite cores if your playing with the relatively low frequency's of a JT . generally its between 20 to 100 cycles per second and My feelings are the core is needed to propagate the BEMF pulses that are generated at these low Frequency's .. . Way way back at the beginning we discussed using Nails and such which do work fine as does air core and coils but not very good for a secondary winding which is where the kick is.

@electric me .. Nice work there Mate . You know you could add some crystals ans other metal shavings with your Internal clockwise coil core and have one nice orgone generator . they sell cans of resin at the hobby store and that would mix well with the Shavings ,, Nice movie links . I saved them and got them on my site now and EVERYONE should see them .. Thanks

@all the Ideal Joule Thief will Make Lots of light with a minimum of current draw and several designs here supersede any design on the internet . Groundloop has one of the first designs which incorporates a capacitor with a Jt and Drastically reduces and on timing which is where your current is going ,, jeanna and Mk1 along with mrmag and countless others have reduced the input to as little as .20 ma per led . unheard of but then again we are using PAC to power the leds. they are designed for dc not PAC so unexpected results will occur . . Now if we can take a Jt and power a FL tube with .20 ma is an achievement . this will be accomplished with more windings on a secondary and better tuning of the primary with caps and resistors ,, i know i can light a cfl with as little as 9 ma from a Fugi so it can be done on a torroid.. that is in itself an achievement because the best circuit on Public Domain is 14 ma full bright led . We beat that By 13.80 ma .. Now lets capture more of the wasted energy inside of a torroid .
Where is IST ?

GADGET

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 14, 2009, 03:01:15 PM

@ Al:

I was just kidding about HAARP. It was 1:00 a.m. and I just got back from 10 hours of surveillance and I was a little giddy I suppose. I thought it was funny at the time, ha ha. Glad to see you are better.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 14, 2009, 03:18:10 PM

@ Jim:

You mentioned a variation of this idea a while back to make our own large toroids and now you have added placing a coil inside the toroid. This idea is totally unique and intriguing. Excellent idea! I might suggest that a conductive glue or cement be used? Electronics goldmine sells some. Of course, it would be good to know what they put in it to make it conductive and that might make it hard to control the process and values of this toroid in future mixes.

I really like your idea of crushing up smaller toroids and throwing them into the mix. It would not be hard to make a powder out of them. (Using safety glasses of course) And at $1.00 for a bag of 5 one inch toroids from goldmine, for a few buck a lot of the same material could be obtained.

I just had a thought that might be easier to try the properties of the mix prior to using the glue. Remember my tube lamp experiments with the plastic tubing? What if I made a circle of the same tubing, and dumped all of my mix (in powder form) into it and then closed the circle. Then, I could wrap bifilar in a standard JT set-up and see if this particular mix worked. If it does, and the values look good for tuning, then we break out the glue and your cake pan and make a very large version. I believe my test idea will work ok as the fairly thin wall of the clear plastic tubing should not block any of the magnetic properties of the ferrite/mix. Just a suggestion to your already outstanding idea there. I hope I can get some time soon to try it. I am going back out again for another long night.

Keep your brilliant ideas coming.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 14, 2009, 03:41:04 PM

@all, this is FFR, not to question individual intelligence. Someone somewhere will have enough time to eventually go over this thread and catalog the ideas set forth herein.

@electricme,

I look forward to your setup. The idea of using powdered iron has crossed my mind, but rather than doing it as you described - I was going to simply coat the wire in glue and apply the iron powder. This could be repeated - in effect, there would be a multi-layer powder-coated wire ...this would effectively strengthen the field directly around the wire - it would also reduce those eddy current in the toroid that xenomorphlabs mentioned ( that I've been aware of - and after some experimentation, they do indeed form in toroids ).

Most of my bifilar setups incorporate a twisted pair of magnet wire which has been ( twisted tightly and evenly ); this is how I've made my experimental linear transformers - and they do work without being in any special location - they're referred to as a gimmick in the electrical realm.

I've thought about using the gimmick as the primary and a tertiary as a pickup - this has been the implied suggestion of many here. Now adding iron powder-coating to the gimmick might increase yields substantially. I think the idea is a good one.

I have a hard time finding local supplies - I did find some 1200 (F) degrees grill paint made by Rust-Oleum - it might make a good adhesive for this while remaining heat resistant - if everything is spaced just right, it might make a better coil coating then this enamel that normally comes with the magnet wire. It's reporting to be about twice as heat resistant than most enamel on high grade mag wire - but this stuff it probably just good for local setups like you've mentioned.

It sounds like you're suffering the plagues or something - hope all gets better.

@gadgetmall,

Firstly, I can't ignore the need for ferrite - but I did, and the results were weak, so yes, ferrite is needed - the configuration is left to question though. Eddy current will form in the toroid, and this swill cause losses to heat - eventually, maybe not at first, but at resonance when the steady state potentials are reached and everything is warmed up so to speak, there will be a measurable loss.

Some people have reported an unusual effect that when they first turn their device on, they get a brighter light and after a few seconds, things dim down a bit. This is due to heat - heat destroys the field - it might also be caused a rotating magnetic field or a current flowing around the toroid since they do conduct on the inside.

I think it's the eventual idea is to light fluorescents using the joule thief with as little current as possible - my proposal was to stick to a 12v source - but I realize there are already application using this. I got one lit with a 9v battery, but the transistor got hot. I haven't revisited that design either.

Also, I understand the notion of chemtrails - I've seen them frequently - but I have a feeling that some of what I'm seeing is the result of temperature differentials and the condensation remaining at certain altitudes rather than at others. It doesn't help living near so many airports. I don't trust these emissions regardless - this gradient is just an even more valid excuse for them.

@gadgetmall & electricme,

If the magnetic domains in ferrite could be insulated, then the effects generated when subjecting them to a magnetic field could potentially increase. The toroids conduct about their circumference. The method proposed by electricme may indeed help isolate the effects of circumferential eddy currents. The idea proposed might isolate magnetic domains closer to the wire away from where eddy currents are more apt to form ( since electric current flows at the center of a coil more so than about it's circumference )

Know of any iron based paint? It would save me / us the trouble of trying to powder coat a coil setup. :) something red maybe? ..I've even entertained the idea of powder coating with iron oxide as well - since oxygen is a polar molecule in the environment.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on March 14, 2009, 03:59:08 PM

@jadaro

Use metal flakes paint. Maybe it is real metal flakes.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 14, 2009, 04:02:30 PM

@ Jim:

Using your idea of the crushed/powdered ferrite and my idea of the plastic tubing, we could also then experiment with the "gap" principle we were discussing a while back. Instead of having to saw through an existing ferrite toroid, due to the flexible nature of the tubing, we could easily experiment with various gaps whose width could easily be accurately controlled with a screw mechanism. As was pointed out by someone, these gaps were used to create the high freqs required by radar during the war so by being able to very precisely change and control this gap, we might push our frequencies much higher than we thought we could as being limited by the transistor.

Just a thought.

@ Jadaro:

I like your idea of coating the wire. No mater if you use ferrite powder of iron powder, with your method you could shape your wire exactly how you want it, because this will not be flexible after wards, and spray the wire with your paint and while wet, apply a thin coating of powder, let dry and repeat as many times as needed to get the amount of material to cover your wire. You may even be able to use a heat source to "bake" your finish on as you go. (be careful of exploding fumes from the paint) With this method, I imagine you could get a pretty thick build up of material fairly quickly. As the layers are building, you could also perform some tests to see where you are magnetically (and for tunability) so you could see when to stop layering. I think this is also a great idea that you have to build a wire inside the core essentially.

This will be fragile when done but I'll bet it will work! As for the iron paint, I am not sure what is added to the high temp paint you already thought of but my guess it would either be a metal powder or a ceramic refractory material of some kind. It might be listed on the side of your can. I think it would be better to add your own powder as you go so you, and then others, can replicate it. Great thinking on your part here.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on March 14, 2009, 04:08:51 PM

2 rechargeable 1.2v batteries will run a 8 watt fluoro very nicely. i can run voltages from as little as .95v to 6v, but it's not really a classic jt, more of a resonant 'royer'.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 14, 2009, 05:03:11 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 14, 2009, 03:36:26 AM

@all,

If you've seen some of my posts, you know that I've created a ferrite-free design which employed a coil about a coil.

I was wondering ( in the late stagnation of this thread and the subsequent wandering toward chemtrails ( oil vapor - which I see all too often living near an air-force base an all ) ) ... if anyone has had any secondary thoughts about coil design which did not use ferrite?

This type of design would be something scalable and wouldn't require the specificity of any material other than the gage of wire and the general configuration - perhaps a special setup? ..an ignition coil setup or something random like that.

Lately, I've asked myself a few questions regarding how this device could be improved to be more flexible when it comes to replicating without extreme deviations in baseline design ( sort of like a standard ); Not that I wish to regulate anyone's creativity, however, the presence of such a multitude of designs can create confusion for anyone wanting to 'get started'...I also understand that I'm just asking for more, and varied, designs - which is totally hypocritical.

Since not everyone has access to ferrite toroids, and not every toroid is the same; my initial designs were made without them, however the perpendicularity of the magnetic fields causes some question as to their efficacy - generally speaking, it's like having a voltage collecting sleeve around a ring-shaped coil, and thus it collects a minimal amount of voltage when the magnetic filed collapses - which brought to mind an interesting reversal of the input and output terminals on the coil. To my surprise, the voltage gain was the same in either configuration. Any attempts to add a tertiary coil to the design nullified any gains. Remember, this isn't your average coil setup...

jadaro

I agree we need to come up with an alternative to the toroids ....... they are not available everwhere and not alll of them will work with the JT .
I have come up with something that works ..... I am not saying that it works great .....but the voltage I have got is similar to the voltages from my black toroids from electronic goldmine .

I am calling it a floppy toroid . :)

I imagine that most people have an old VHS tape laying around .

I found one .... tore it apart then broke the top off the full real and pulled about 3/16 think loop off the real.
I then wrapped electrical tape around this loop of magnetic tape .

I have sense wrapped 2 bifilar windings ( about 6 feet each ) of wire from a cat5 cable around the toroid ( MK style )
( edit ...... that is 2 windings each one a bifilar twisted pair )
I have got each of these coils to light a led ........and now I have them running in parrallel in one JT
Connecting them in parrallel lowered the voltage just a little .....but I am guessing that others here will improve greatly on my results so far

The voltage I was talking about is measured by hooking a bridge across the diode .......then a cap to the bridge and messuring the voltage on the cap I got 2.9v for the bifilars separately and 2.7V with them in parrallel

( edit ......this toriod did not work without the a cap across the transistor load resistor . I recommend using a pot ..... the range that it work in is narrower than the black toroids.
I used .01uF and .1uF the .1uF works better )

I plan to keep playing with this . :)
Maybe a secondary or 2

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 14, 2009, 05:40:41 PM

This is also funny, because not everyone has VHS tapes anymore, or heat resistant enamel paint for that matter ( as I mentioned ) ..I like your idea though, ..using the tape as a core crossed my mind before also - though, I never actually tried it.

I used to have a bunch of tapes, big and small, for whatever reason they were thrown away though. I have a few small ones, I might try to implement an inversion of what you just mentioned, and place the tape around the outside. Post a Picture if you can, you've made an innovation.

Lately my joule thiefs have been working without capacitors, but this probably has something to do with my LED's I'm using.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 14, 2009, 05:45:20 PM

@all

the toroid , there are many thing to know , first the need to circuit to switch in there range , they decide , some need more turns to be effective with those you can still get 30 v dc pickup coil , if you go bifilar all around the toroid , make sure to not go over the the the ends of the jt coils. In a better toroid you can go lower jt coil turns , but there only good at there own frequency , now if you want instant gratification stick to ferrite core most are good , what is cool about it is that it works at a wider range of freq , so you should get result for the get go , that said they need testing to be sure the design could not be improved . Some need more voltage those are bad for this toy.

Keep those wires tight !

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 14, 2009, 05:53:49 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on March 14, 2009, 05:03:11 PM

The voltage I was talking about is measured by hooking a bridge across the diode .......then a cap to the bridge and messuring the voltage on the cap I got 2.9v for the bifilars separately and 2.7V with them in parrallel

I get confused , but i just want to make sure didn't use bridge and diode , so could you give more details

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 14, 2009, 06:26:02 PM

I hate to interrupt any thought processes here, but is it maybe a good idea to use switching diodes to rectify the current coming off pickup coils? ( 1N914/1N4148 ) seems to support signals up to 100mHz...they're also cheap and abundant.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 14, 2009, 06:33:51 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 14, 2009, 05:53:49 PM
I get confused , but i just want to make sure didn't use bridge and diode , so could you give more details

MK1

As far as I know the best way to measure the output of a JT is by rectifying the output with a diode bridge then charging a cap with the bridge .........that is what I was doing .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 14, 2009, 06:44:57 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on March 14, 2009, 06:33:51 PM
MK1

As far as I know the best way to measure the output of a JT is by rectifying the output with a diode bridge then charging a cap with the bridge .........that is what I was doing .

gary

Thank, so you do use the rectifier only , ok , do you ave a pot , to try to find a better freq , and get more output?

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 14, 2009, 07:43:44 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 14, 2009, 06:44:57 PM
Thank, so you do use the rectifier only , ok , do you ave a pot , to try to find a better freq , and get more output?

Mark

from my previous post

Quote
( edit ......this toriod did not work without the a cap across the transistor load resistor . I recommend using a pot ..... the range that it work in is narrower than the black toroids.
I used .01uF and .1uF the .1uF works better )

with the cap across the pot changing the pot seems to change the frequency .

I have tied changing the number of turns to get better voltage ........but havn't had much luck yet

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on March 15, 2009, 12:36:39 AM

@all,
Just had word via my daughter, my wife has been taken to hosp, :( seems the other day the pest control fellas decided to spray chemicals inside her unit.
She has COPD, needs a oxygen generator to breath 24 - 7, in otherwords really bad lung disease, she is in intensive care, so I gotta fly in to town.

There really is some whackos unthinking mongrells in this world who don't give a rats, about anyone but themselves, and if they are told to spray, they spray, if she dies, wonder if I can sue the.........off em. (I apologise for the language fellas and Lady, but I'm not tooo level headded right now). >:(

grrrrr

OK gotta go, I will recheck posts when I get time
Those who pray start prayin
Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on March 15, 2009, 01:00:21 AM

Hi folks, I have already sent healing thoughts for you and your wife Jim. Whatever happens just know all that we can control is ourselves and as you can see what happens in a world when others wish to dominate and control others, it doesnt work out so well. Stay centered and at peace and the love we give is all that matters.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 15, 2009, 01:11:14 AM

@electricme,

You seem to have certain ailments - among you and your family - and your relative closeness to airports and other things I now find more suspicious than once before.

I hope everything works out for you both - for the better.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on March 15, 2009, 05:40:11 AM

@Skywatcher123, Jadaro2600, and others peeking into the JT forum.
Hi guys,
Thanks for the concern and the kind thorts, and I apologise to all for my emotional outburst topsides.
The missus is on the mend again, she carn't talk for too long (now that can be a blessing lol), however she is in a ladies ward and should be out of hosp soon.

The daughter (good kid, and on the ball) opened up the flat, turned all the fans on full, now there is hardly any smell from the antivermemsprayerswhoaredopes.

Because of this little upset, I havent been able to begin treating my arm, not to worry, it will get started when I get back home, I'm baby sitting a flat just now.

@bill,
Thank you for your kind words in the above post relating to my Internal JT Coil idea, Jeanna had a really good idea, get that plastic hollow coloured ring toy, but I would cut the plastic ring in half and turn it into a former. Now, how can I smash up many torrids into powder in a safe manner, hmmmmmmm

I wonder where IST is, Bill, if you are able to make contact with ist, could you let us all know if he is OK please, I hope he is not doing a "Gadget" on us all.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on March 15, 2009, 05:51:40 AM

@Jadaro2600

I like this idea you have, coating the wire with the torrid powder, that seems like a good idea.

QUOTEing
I look forward to your setup. The idea of using powdered iron has crossed my mind, but rather than doing it as you described - I was going to simply coat the wire in glue and apply the iron powder. This could be repeated - in effect, there would be a multi-layer powder-coated wire ...this would effectively strengthen the field directly around the wire - it would also reduce those eddy current in the toroid that xenomorphlabs mentioned ( that I've been aware of - and after some experimentation, they do indeed form in toroids ).

Most of my bifilar setups incorporate a twisted pair of magnet wire which has been ( twisted tightly and evenly ); this is how I've made my experimental linear transformers - and they do work without being in any special location - they're referred to as a gimmick in the electrical realm.

I've thought about using the gimmick as the primary and a tertiary as a pickup - this has been the implied suggestion of many here. Now adding iron powder-coating to the gimmick might increase yields substantially. I think the idea is a good one.
UNquote

If you can get some of the "paste powder torid" to stick on your bifilair wires, it would make for a interresting experiment.

@all,
I thought of this setup as the magnetic fields rotate inside the torid, now it may just turn into a JT generator.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on March 15, 2009, 10:20:12 AM

Quote from: electricme on March 15, 2009, 05:40:11 AM
@Skywatcher123, Jadaro2600, and others peeking into the JT forum.
Hi guys,
Thanks for the concern and the kind thorts, and I apologise to all for my emotional outburst topsides.
The missus is on the mend again, she carn't talk for too long (now that can be a blessing lol), however she is in a ladies ward and should be out of hosp soon.

The daughter (good kid, and on the ball) opened up the flat, turned all the fans on full, now there is hardly any smell from the antivermemsprayerswhoaredopes.

Because of this little upset, I havent been able to begin treating my arm, not to worry, it will get started when I get back home, I'm baby sitting a flat just now.

@bill,
Thank you for your kind words in the above post relating to my Internal JT Coil idea, Jeanna had a really good idea, get that plastic hollow coloured ring toy, but I would cut the plastic ring in half and turn it into a former. Now, how can I smash up many torrids into powder in a safe manner, hmmmmmmm

I wonder where IST is, Bill, if you are able to make contact with ist, could you let us all know if he is OK please, I hope he is not doing a "Gadget" on us all.

jim

Jim . Our Lord Works in Ways we cannot imagine , I am Glad she is getting better . I have spoken to William(ist) and he is fine . He will see us soon ..
We all need to do some Soul searching and wake up people . Make your electricity and Hide it for the times to come
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBeLtkiQUfs

Paranoid .You should be ... Well what do you think now ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoacYPa4mX8

Yes I am also a revolutionary and have always loved Mankind and want the perfect world with Peace and Love . But when satanic forces are at work as they always have been and you have a near death experience your eyes your mind and you soul see Bad things everywhere . I have been told that i have a rainbow aura and that i am an old spirit . I just want you guys to remember what was important is being propagandized and the true inner peace and love will set you free In Christ Name only . . But just Look around . people are plastic and have been blindfolded into a sterotype way of thinking .we have been programmed to think everything is ok . Very Few of us can Grasp inner peace or see the things that are now unfolding . Please remember me and that i tried to help By opening your eyes as they carry you away into one of these camps through out the world . I have verified 5 in my area alone and yes i am scared for My Loved ones .Everyone is not good . 2012 is coming .In 2001 a national press conference with the media announced the Real presence of UFO /alien Threats and Demanded the Investigation be reopened Ie UFO DISCLOSURE!! . This was done By High ranking officials from all over the world .To day have you heard of anything about it in the News ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TumtnsMbB8s
and another in 2007 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17nQ9zHUatI
Yes i want you all to survive because i Love you . wake up please with the possibility and prove it to yourself .
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 15, 2009, 11:02:18 AM

Quote from: SkyWatcher123 on March 15, 2009, 01:00:21 AM
Hi folks, I have already sent healing thoughts for you and your wife Jim. Whatever happens just know all that we can control is ourselves and as you can see what happens in a world when others wish to dominate and control others, it doesnt work out so well. Stay centered and at peace and the love we give is all that matters.

Hello Skywatcher

This post caught my attention .

In one short post you met all my requirements for friendship .........I find that surprising :)

Let me explain a little .

You said you sent healing thoughts . To me this makes you a lightworker . Someone that consciously chooses to help heal others by sending love or light .

Quote

Whatever happens just know all that we can control is ourselves and as you can see what happens in a world when others wish to dominate and control others, it doesnt work out so well.

All we can do is control ourselves :) wise words
And this talk about trying to dominate others not working very well , Does this mean you don't believe in the power games that most play ?

last but not least

Quote

Stay centered and at peace and the love we give is all that matters.

This is the message that I would truly share with others ...............but usually it falls on deaf ears .
We live in a world where power and money is all that matters to most people.

It is like a breath of fresh air to find someone that seems to understand peace and love.

We have physical bodies .........but those bodies are not who we are .
We are spiritual beings playing a physical game .
In short ........We are love .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on March 15, 2009, 11:08:56 AM

Hello everybody!!!

I am glad that @gadgetmall and @electricme's wife are okay, also @gadgetmall's daughter.

In general I am trying to mix a lot of different ideas and make at least a good unity joule thief pulse motor.
In order to accomplish the task at hand I replicated a cat whisker device posted back on this thread.

My replication is this one and I would like to know which side is the cathode.
Does anybody knows?

Special thanks to @pirate for this great topic!!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on March 15, 2009, 11:21:18 AM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on March 15, 2009, 11:08:56 AM
Hello everybody!!!

I am glad that @gadgetmall and @electricme's wife are okay, also @gadgetmall's daughter.

In general I am trying to mix a lot of different ideas and make at least a good unity joule thief pulse motor.
In order to accomplish the task at hand I replicated a cat whisker device posted back on this thread.

My replication is this one and I would like to know which side is the cathode.
Does anybody knows?

Special thanks to @pirate for this great topic!!

Jesus

It should go through the razor blade then come back out the safety pin.
Also I think you might have to blue the razor blade for it to work.

Heat it up with a torch till it glows red hot.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 15, 2009, 11:49:44 AM

Some of these look like they could be pre made JT coils.

http://www.surplussales.com/Inductors/FerMisc/FerMisc-2.html

they also have lots of toroids

http://www.surplussales.com/Inductors/FerToro/FerToro-3.html

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slapper on March 15, 2009, 01:40:49 PM

@Jadaro2600:

I've used this 'magnetic' paint stuff: http://www.kling.com/magneticpaintindex.html (http://www.kling.com/magneticpaintindex.html)
Seems to work okay. Got some at a local Michaels Arts and Crafts store.

@nievesoliveras

Take a look at what this dude has done with different materials: http://home.earthlink.net/~lenyr/zincosc.htm (http://home.earthlink.net/~lenyr/zincosc.htm)
Here is his main url: http://home.earthlink.net/~lenyr/index.html (http://home.earthlink.net/~lenyr/index.html)

Take care guys.

nap

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on March 15, 2009, 02:10:01 PM

Quote from: slayer007 on March 15, 2009, 11:21:18 AM

It should go through the razor blade then come back out the safety pin.
Also I think you might have to blue the razor blade for it to work.

Heat it up with a torch till it glows red hot.

Thank you @slayer !
I will try that.
Hope that it work.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on March 15, 2009, 02:26:46 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on March 15, 2009, 11:49:44 AM
Some of these look like they could be pre made JT coils.

http://www.surplussales.com/Inductors/FerMisc/FerMisc-2.html

they also have lots of toroids

http://www.surplussales.com/Inductors/FerToro/FerToro-3.html

gary

Thank you @resonanceman. The toroids are cheaper At Goldmine.
Those already made toroids are fantastic though.

Quote from: slapper on March 15, 2009, 01:40:49 PM
@Jadaro2600:

I've used this 'magnetic' paint stuff: http://www.kling.com/magneticpaintindex.html (http://www.kling.com/magneticpaintindex.html)
Seems to work okay. Got some at a local Michaels Arts and Crafts store.

@nievesoliveras

Take a look at what this dude has done with different materials: http://home.earthlink.net/~lenyr/zincosc.htm (http://home.earthlink.net/~lenyr/zincosc.htm)
Here is his main url: http://home.earthlink.net/~lenyr/index.html (http://home.earthlink.net/~lenyr/index.html)

Take care guys.

nap

Thank you @slapper
Those are good links!!
I will give it some time.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 15, 2009, 03:52:55 PM

I made a joule thief with a graphite core last night - there doesn't seem to be any difference in performance without the graphite core - I just thought I would mention that.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 15, 2009, 04:10:22 PM

hello everyone

im fine

just trying my best to find my SELF ;) i have just split from my family .... we all are learning as we go....

GADGET!!!

>:(

I DID NOT LIKE THAT SIR!!!

i know 100 % what MY GOOD FRIEND TESLA WOULD SAY ;)

WIZE THE HELL UP

IM WARNING YOU !!!!

I NEED MY OTHER HALF........ IM NOW SERCHING ......

IST!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on March 15, 2009, 04:21:27 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on March 15, 2009, 04:10:22 PM
hello everyone

im fine

just trying my best to find my SELF ;) i have just split from my family .... we all are learning as we go....

GADGET!!!

>:(

I DID NOT LIKE THAT SIR!!!

i know 100 % what MY GOOD FRIEND TESLA WOULD SAY ;)

WIZE THE HELL UP

IM WARNING YOU !!!!

I NEED MY OTHER HALF........ IM NOW SERCHING ......

IST!

hey Ist . I thought you would like My nice big Tesla Project ;) and you know i still love ya man .. part of learning is to Teach what you learn . I'm just trying to wake up some people to the Destruction that is going to happen .i know i am watched . Good . They already are killing me and mine and everything i love. so to hell they go !! Jesus don't want a bunch of chicken shits that hide and run he wants us to Join him and his army against EVIL . And you know theres plenty of that everywhere .We don't want that here now do we ?

Gadget ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 15, 2009, 05:13:42 PM

@Gadget

I was awaken last year , thanks to alex jones movies, and i have been at work since. And legends of atlantis a 6 movie that that is actually quite interesting but really long , before asking question about its relevance you need to watch it full, and ask your self why this movie got finance and why it done.

@all

My green toroid was a common mode choke coil,

I hope this helps .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on March 15, 2009, 05:19:42 PM

Hi folks, thanks for the kind words Gary ( resonance ). Indeed if caring about what happens to others is called a lightworker then ' I AM ' and i can assure you there are many more in the world that care its just the ones that dont seem to care work so hard to make it appear that few care. Oh and by the way if anyone thinks that creator source will allow these ones to enslave us any further or put us in camps has not looked to the sky much. there were massive ships on Oct. 14 its just they didnt decloak the massive ones for certain reasons, the future is bright folks and im not wearing shades, hehe. And on the techno front i have built a JT, using a big green toroid i think i got it from a pc power supply. it works its just it doesnt compare to the likes of the fuji circuit which ive read about on the thread for powering leds and such, it would be nice if we could get the same performance as the fuji with the JT. One more thing, i've built many devices over the years, like right now ive built a permanent magnet heater like the one troy reed invented and it generates intense heat instantly and by gearing the drive motor properly one can attain high efficiencies similar to heat pumps, however I see my endeavours as my creative outlet because even if i came up with the perfect excess energy device right now the majority of the people would never have access to it and that is the problem, not a lack of self sustaining energy sources, what we have is a lack of spiritual wisdom and knowledge.

peace love light :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on March 15, 2009, 05:29:39 PM

Hi All

I came across an interesting site this morning with a short section on toroid types, winding and Q, then my NIC (Network interface card) died!

Ah well back online now so here it is:

http://users.catchnet.com.au/~rjandusimports/tut_5a.html & http://users.catchnet.com.au/~rjandusimports/wind_deg.gif

It's geared towards wideband transformers but might be of interest to some, the winding degrees drew my attention as other than the types of toroids and wire size there's also a relation to the windings that people may not be aware of.

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 15, 2009, 05:29:43 PM

@SkyWatcher123

Welcome, nice toroid you got there, i see you have 2 coil, the fun begins at 3 coil , but go for 4 right now.
you keep the 2 coil you have on for now , and rap 2 more around those 2 starting and ending at the same place as the others, then connect led to it, then find a bride rectifier to be able to get full wave on those 2 new pickup coil.

Nice to see i am not alone.

Mark

Those toroid from pc usually give me 45 volts from 2 pickup coil of 24 turns , more turns to get higher voltage.That is when it done in the mk1 way.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 15, 2009, 06:18:11 PM

@mk1

when you fully awaken .... :)

you will realize WE ALL ARE HERE ALREADY :)

;)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 15, 2009, 06:57:41 PM

Quote from: SkyWatcher123 on March 15, 2009, 05:19:42 PM
Hi folks, thanks for the kind words Gary ( resonance ). Indeed if caring about what happens to others is called a lightworker then ' I AM ' and i can assure you there are many more in the world that care its just the ones that dont seem to care work so hard to make it appear that few care. Oh and by the way if anyone thinks that creator source will allow these ones to enslave us any further or put us in camps has not looked to the sky much. there were massive ships on Oct. 14 its just they didnt decloak the massive ones for certain reasons, the future is bright folks and im not wearing shades, hehe. And on the techno front i have built a JT, using a big green toroid i think i got it from a pc power supply. it works its just it doesnt compare to the likes of the fuji circuit which ive read about on the thread for powering leds and such, it would be nice if we could get the same performance as the fuji with the JT. One more thing, i've built many devices over the years, like right now ive built a permanent magnet heater like the one troy reed invented and it generates intense heat instantly and by gearing the drive motor properly one can attain high efficiencies similar to heat pumps, however I see my endeavours as my creative outlet because even if i came up with the perfect excess energy device right now the majority of the people would never have access to it and that is the problem, not a lack of self sustaining energy sources, what we have is a lack of spiritual wisdom and knowledge.

peace love light :)

Skywatcher

Simply caring for others does not make you a lightworker . .......it takes a certian clarity . Or you could call it an awareness of soul.
Our religions tend to teach us mostly about judgement and retribution .
IN my opinion the only thing our religions should be teaching is God is love .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on March 15, 2009, 07:23:36 PM

OK now were getting off the JT and into some deep sh>>>>T!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 15, 2009, 07:34:01 PM

@ All:

I finally got a video of my Bedini replication up and running on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRO8Pdh35bA

In case you are wondering why I am posting this here, it is because next, I will attempt to run it from a JT circuit.

Thank you to everyone on here that helped me with this replication.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 15, 2009, 08:42:51 PM

I recently returned to my linear transformer setups. Input source voltage is 1.3V; the voltage as read across the leads of the 1uF capacitor is 2.74V. The linear transformer is a tightly twisted pair of 26 gage wire approximately 12 inches long. This is the transformer I'm planning on coating with magnetic paint.

Can anyone tell me why this LED is lighting up like this?

Here is a circuit diagram and picture. *edit; note: switching the capacitors doesn't adversely effect the voltage reading.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on March 15, 2009, 09:12:19 PM

Quote from: SkyWatcher123 on March 15, 2009, 05:19:42 PM
Hi folks, thanks for the kind words Gary ( resonance ). Indeed if caring about what happens to others is called a lightworker then ' I AM ' and i can assure you there are many more in the world that care its just the ones that dont seem to care work so hard to make it appear that few care. Oh and by the way if anyone thinks that creator source will allow these ones to enslave us any further or put us in camps has not looked to the sky much. there were massive ships on Oct. 14 its just they didnt decloak the massive ones for certain reasons, the future is bright folks and im not wearing shades, hehe. And on the techno front i have built a JT, using a big green toroid i think i got it from a pc power supply. it works its just it doesnt compare to the likes of the fuji circuit which ive read about on the thread for powering leds and such, it would be nice if we could get the same performance as the fuji with the JT. One more thing, i've built many devices over the years, like right now ive built a permanent magnet heater like the one troy reed invented and it generates intense heat instantly and by gearing the drive motor properly one can attain high efficiencies similar to heat pumps, however I see my endeavours as my creative outlet because even if i came up with the perfect excess energy device right now the majority of the people would never have access to it and that is the problem, not a lack of self sustaining energy sources, what we have is a lack of spiritual wisdom and knowledge.

peace love light :)

I beg to differ on your heat source .we would have access to it if you shared it . would you kindly lead us to where we may build a magnet Heat source . If you love us then you have to know that most of us here are poor , freezing and in poverty and would like to know how to heat with magnets :) IF you dare share ? You hear that Tink ? . tink is in the background lurking and i for one am like him in that i have no money no food no heat and has Children and i'm disabled and no one will hire me because cant walk straight (vertigo) This Peace love light Crap was in the 60 and 70s . been there done that . Its dog eat dog now .Look there are Charging 5 year olds with murder . Crack dealers on every corner , pregnate girls at 7. Not all is right if your Blind then you can't see past the smoke . If you have Spirit then i assume you are a Christian and go to Church and have been saved by the Blood Of Christ . If not you are dammed to hell .And there will be tribulation even for us that are saved . . No matter how Nice you are ..Sorry to be Blunt but you are not saved by your kindness and your good deeds or intentions . your are save By submitting and professing you are a sinner to Jesus and Change and spread the word that he is coming after the tribulation which is now upon us .

@Slayer007 . I tried the Ring Light and WOW yea it works good . Doing a time test on one now . and it was a Burnout one at that..
Man Lidmotor is really rocking with his latest flip flop Jt . Love it ..

Peace Love in Christ
REX 84
Gadget ..

@goat > i know you probably think i've gone off the deep end but i assure you what i have said in this forum is as real as the reflection in the mirror when you look in it . :)

@ Pirate . Forgive me . I'll shut up and Dissapear now . The low powered Jt is very Important because you can power it from the earth .. We proved that . So if yall can improve that Jt to run your bedini .we will always have Light now .. take care ..

Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on March 15, 2009, 09:14:37 PM

@ All

Couldn't resist (Tongue in cheek), the price was reduced from $5 to $0.50 so I bought it ;D

Amazing that we can program LED letters into a moving Fan but we can't tune a JT or a TPU..

I thought long and hard on all the Tesla patents and all the other people in the OU/FE conquest this is what I came up with ;D

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 15, 2009, 09:43:11 PM

It's usually not the CFL that burns out, it's the starter or the electronics in the base of the socket - I can't explain the long tubes though - I don't understand why these burn out at all - it makes no sense - There's really nothing to go bad in them.

Does someone care to explain?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on March 15, 2009, 10:08:20 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 15, 2009, 09:43:11 PM
It's usually not the CFL that burns out, it's the starter or the electronics in the base of the socket - I can't explain the long tubes though - I don't understand why these burn out at all - it makes no sense - There's really nothing to go bad in them.

Does someone care to explain?

They have Filaments in them to heat up the mercury Vapor . the One you see above is burnt out blackened by the broken filament . But as you notice they don't care about heat with high voltage .. / if the heater don't go the gas will eventually burn up . Ie the Flickering Fl tube .. Bu those will work also on one of our Hv circuits .. and your right 99 % of the Cls i use are burnt out electronics .. i have never seen one last 5 years .. much less one and if we were the designers of those bulbs and circuits we would be running running them with this cold electricity rather than wasting amps heating up mercury to create a conductive vapor... real wast imaging running those ballast sucking 2 amps when we can run them off 1 volt at a few milliamps and they would never go bad.

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 15, 2009, 10:10:40 PM

jadaro2600:

My non-technical explanation is......planned obsolescence. All of mine that have actually caught fire (cfl's) were due to a malfunction in the base. You are correct, as long as there is gas in the long tube, and the florescent material is still covering the inside of the glass, I too do not see why they would get black on the ends and no longer work efficiently.

After lighting the two 48" tubes with the AA on the Fuji, it occurs to me that maybe too much power is being run through the commercial types? OK, so mine we maybe 1/2 brightness but it was on 1.5 volts. Have you ever seen and felt that ballast required (supposedly) to light a long 2 tube fixture? It weighs a bunch and gets very hot...and this is on a 20 amp breaker@ 120 volts. Something is wrong here.

So, anyway, I agree with you and also share your curiosity on this as well.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 15, 2009, 10:12:57 PM

Al:

We posted at the same time. I agree. I have all CFL's in my home and not one has lasted over a year, and many less than 6 months. We can do better and guess what? We will. Thanks for the explanation on the filaments in the long tubes, I had no idea they were there.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 15, 2009, 10:14:57 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 15, 2009, 09:43:11 PM
It's usually not the CFL that burns out, it's the starter or the electronics in the base of the socket - I can't explain the long tubes though - I don't understand why these burn out at all - it makes no sense - There's really nothing to go bad in them.

Does someone care to explain?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorescent_lamp
-heater(prime exciter) burn up.

-the arc within the tube slowly burn the gas inside.

rubbing the tube from one side to the other will often start it up.
a higher voltage/current will do the same but gas will burn more rapidly.
a higher frequency will excite the gas more.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 15, 2009, 10:17:40 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on March 15, 2009, 09:12:19 PM

If you have Spirit then i assume you are a Christian and go to Church and have been saved by the Blood Of Christ . If not you are dammed to hell .And there will be tribulation even for us that are saved . . No matter how Nice you are ..Sorry to be Blunt but you are not saved by your kindness and your good deeds or intentions . your are save By submitting and professing you are a sinner to Jesus and Change and spread the word that he is coming after the tribulation which is now upon us .

Just because something has been taught for 2000 years does not mean it is true.
The bible has some great truths in it but for the most part our current religions don't teach those truths .
Our religions tend to teach the parts of the bible that keep people submissive to their control .

The teachings that are in the bible that lead to finding peace and love within are mentioned ocasionally by most religions ........
We all know most of them ......but because they are not activly taught people don't understand their importance.
One of these is God is love .
God is not some huge mean vindictive beast just waiting to send us to hell for simply doing what he created us to do . .
Why would anyone want to spend eternity with a God that is much less loving and just than the average human? .
What parrent would condemn a child .............any child to torture forever for a simple mistake ?
Yet ...........God made us free to choose ....... How twisted is that?

My truth is ...............Religion as we kniow it is corrupt
My truth is .........God is love.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on March 15, 2009, 10:33:00 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on March 15, 2009, 10:17:40 PM
Just because something has been taught for 2000 years does not mean it is true.
The bible has some great truths in it but for the most part our current religions don't teach those truths .
Our religions tend to teach the parts of the bible that keep people submissive to their control .

The teachings that are in the bible that lead to finding peace and love within are mentioned ocasionally by most religions ........
We all know most of them ......but because they are not activly taught people don't understand their importance.
One of these is God is love .
God is not some huge mean vindictive beast just waiting to send us to hell for simply doing what he created us to do . .
Why would anyone want to spend eternity with a God that is much less loving and just than the average human? .
What parrent would condemn a child .............any child to torture forever for a simple mistake ?
Yet ...........God made us free to choose ....... How twisted is that?

My truth is ...............Religion as we kniow it is corrupt
My truth is .........God is love.

gary

Gary . you are wrong . you are born Condemned and a sinner and learn right from wrong and eventually the 10 commandments . If you keep all of them then confess you are a born sinner then you are saved . other wise your are a fool to think that there is no devil . Its not God that is going to condem you its SATAN and his false religion . there is only one religion and that is Christ . . If you believe in God then you Must believe there is hell and its ruled by satan . Very Few will be saved because of this "NEW Religion " it is a False One and god warned us if you read the Bible . King James version 1812 . the only true word . not the ones that are worded different .. Don't think for i minute that God won't wipe Life off the face of the earth like he did once before in Sodom and Gomorrah and the great flood that Noah lived thru because he listened and obeyed and Feared God like we all ought to . to love him is to fear him because he didn't put us in the mess. who is going to Blame God for Killing all Life except on the ark . You ? He saw what he created from dust to be turned back into dust . and i think the only reason we are here now at the point of tribulation is because Jesus asked the father to forgive us and give us one more chance .Times Up. What have you done for Him ? what are you going to say when you are at the gate when asked did you enjoy your life and the second question . what did you do for me while you were living a flesh life i gave you ?
Gadget ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 15, 2009, 10:38:54 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on March 15, 2009, 10:17:40 PM
Just because something has been taught for 2000 years does not mean it is true.
The bible has some great truths in it but for the most part our current religions don't teach those truths .
Our religions tend to teach the parts of the bible that keep people submissive to their control .

The teachings that are in the bible that lead to finding peace and love within are mentioned ocasionally by most religions ........
We all know most of them ......but because they are not activly taught people don't understand their importance.
One of these is God is love .
God is not some huge mean vindictive beast just waiting to send us to hell for simply doing what he created us to do . .
Why would anyone want to spend eternity with a God that is much less loving and just than the average human? .
What parrent would condemn a child .............any child to torture forever for a simple mistake ?
Yet ...........God made us free to choose ....... How twisted is that?

My truth is ...............Religion as we kniow it is corrupt
My truth is .........God is love.

gary

I THINK THIS IS ALSO TRUE ...

many things have been modified in the past ... this will end !!

WE ALL WILL KNOW THE TRUTHS!!

what is it to be HUMAN... it is to FEEL .... :) ;) ;D >:( :( :o 8) ??? ::) :P :-[ :-X :-\ :-* :'(

IT WAS A GIFT TO EACH AND EVERY ONE OF U ;) SO YOU COULD HAVE THE CHANCE TO EXPEREINCE A HUMAN EXPERIENCE....

HENCE A GIFT TO EXPERIENCE FEELINGS ....

with out being human .... dont think you get the chance to feel...

if ya feel that .... lol :)

ist! some where out there ........ :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 15, 2009, 10:39:23 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on March 15, 2009, 10:33:00 PM
Gary . you are wrong . you are born Condemned and a sinner and learn right from wrong and eventually the 10 commandments . If you keep all of them then confess you are a born sinner then you are saved . other wise your are a fool to think that there is no devil . Its not God that is going to condem you its SATAN and his false religion . there is only one religion and that is Christ . . If you believe in God then you Must believe there is hell and its ruled by satan . Very Few will be saved because of this "NEW Religion " it is a False One and god warned us if you read the Bible . King James version 1812 . the only true word . not the ones that are worded different ..
Gadget ..

Gadgetmall

2000 years of brainwashing is not easy to overcome ...........but it is possible.

The truth is the truth no matter what religions teach.

If you want the truth .............STUDY the nature of love .
What brings you the feeling of love?
The more you understand love the more you will understand God ............because God is love .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 15, 2009, 10:55:59 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on March 15, 2009, 10:38:54 PM
I THINK THIS IS ALSO TRUE ...

many things have been modified in the past ... this will end !!

WE ALL WILL KNOW THE TRUTHS!!

what is it to be HUMAN... it is to FEEL .... :) ;) ;D >:( :( :o 8) ??? ::) :P :-[ :-X :-\ :-* :'(

IT WAS A GIFT TO EACH AND EVERY ONE OF U ;) SO YOU COULD HAVE THE CHANCE TO EXPEREINCE A HUMAN EXPERIENCE....

HENCE A GIFT TO EXPERIENCE FEELINGS ....

with out being human .... dont think you get the chance to feel...

if ya feel that .... lol :)

ist! some where out there ........ :)

IST

EXACTLY

Our culture places great value on intellect .......and intellect has its place .......but intellect can't bring happiness.
Money and power can ony bring fleeting moments of happiness If you search for happiness through money and power you will always be seeking MORE ........MORE money MORE power.

Becoming more spiritual is all about FEELING more love peace and joy ..... If you don't FEEL these things ......you don't have these things..

The human race is on the edge of a great change ........ a change where we cast off the corruption that has controlled us for century's.
If we can't cast off this corruption ...... the human race is doomed ......... we can't keep going on the way we have been going.
Finding practical energy solutions is just the tip of the iceburg ........ there are many many other ways that humanity s killing itself or our envirnment .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on March 15, 2009, 10:57:44 PM

@ jadaro2600

The only explanation for the failure of long tubes that I can think of is the distance between the spark gaps, other than that I can't think of a better answer.

Edit: I agree with everyone on the bulb being able to be run and light on high voltage after the CFL circuit has failed, some of the modded CFL's that came off of burned circuits still light on a 1.5 VDC Fuji type circuit for me even though the 110 VAC circuit was dead, the CFL light isn't ;D

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 15, 2009, 11:04:48 PM

@pirate

Nice video, and really nice motor, you got there.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on March 15, 2009, 11:06:41 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on March 15, 2009, 10:39:23 PM
Gadgetmall

2000 years of brainwashing is not easy to overcome ...........but it is possible.

The truth is the truth no matter what religions teach.

If you want the truth .............STUDY the nature of love .
What brings you the feeling of love?
The more you understand love the more you will understand God ............because God is love .

gary

Gary What Religion are you?. and how long have you been saved My friend . I have been saved and a Baptist Christian since 1994 april 12 // My Church Is New Testament Baptist Church and we study the Bible every Sunday at 10 am at Bible School . God is your Heavenly Father Jesus was his son Christ . You believe what you want as we Christians are taught to tell the truth and spread the true word if you try to tell someone the truth and they refuse to listen then turn and dust the dust off your boots and walk away . and know that you did what God wanted you to do . Try . God Hates Sinners who wont repent . . Love is to know Christ by which ONLY you are saved . the Brain washing is Mans words Not Gods. . Amen ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 15, 2009, 11:06:51 PM

@resonanceman,

It's been taught for well over 2000 years ..

@All, others who've stayed relatively on topic,

Planned obsolescence isn't all together a bad thing, it's just -- How short is the obsolescence going to be. There isn't much distinction between neon signs and florescent tubes; I see these are different patents all of which are very old!

It occurs to me that, after having read the wikipedia entry, the use of CO2 to create light is probably one of the answers we need for what to do with CO2. ...create light.

It's interesting that some of you say that it "burns up". ...for all practical purposes, what is that supposed to mean?? "burns up" is rather connotative. ..having the bulb turn black on the ends is one thing - but is the lamp loosing gas or what?

I understand that if there isn't a ballast, the lamp would eventually begin to get hot and start using considerably more power - which is why there is a ballast in the first place. What I don't understand is the idea of anything leaving the tube - isn't it supposed to be sealed?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on March 15, 2009, 11:13:33 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on March 15, 2009, 10:55:59 PM
IST

EXACTLY

Our culture places great value on intellect .......and intellect has its place .......but intellect can't bring happiness.
Money and power can ony bring fleeting moments of happiness If you search for happiness through money and power you will always be seeking MORE ........MORE money MORE power.

Becoming more spiritual is all about FEELING more love peace and joy ..... If you don't FEEL these things ......you don't have these things..

The human race is on the edge of a great change ........ a change where we cast off the corruption that has controlled us for century's.
If we can't cast off this corruption ...... the human race is doomed ......... we can't keep going on the way we have been going.
Finding practical energy solutions is just the tip of the iceburg ........ there are many many other ways that humanity s killing itself or our envirnment .

gary

Well I've only told a few people so far that wouldn't laugh at me because they are my friends and family, ever since it happened my outlook on life hasn't been the same...Yeah call me crazy but less than a year ago I seen a UFO while I was waiting on a taxi back to the office outside a building ...I observed some details of the ships flight pattern that few have seen...I now know they're here...what can I say to those who have seen them and at the same to those that haven't...more of us seeing them over the years gone by can't be all crazy...can we?

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 15, 2009, 11:15:39 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on March 15, 2009, 11:06:41 PM
Gary What Religion are you?. and how long have you been saved My friend . I have been saved and a Baptist Christian since 1994 april 12 // My Church Is New Testament Baptist Church and we study the Bible every Sunday at 10 am at Bible School . God is your Heavenly Father Jesus was his son Christ . You believe what you want as we Christians are taught to tell the truth and spread the true word if you try to tell someone the truth and they refuse to listen then turn and dust the dust off your boots and walk away . and know that you did what God wanted you to do . Try . God Hates Sinners who wont repent . . Love is to know Christ by which ONLY you are saved . the Brain washing is Mans words Not Gods. . Amen ..

:)

Wiping the dust of my boots and walking away

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on March 15, 2009, 11:23:20 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on March 15, 2009, 11:15:39 PM

:)

Wiping the dust of my boots and walking away

gary

But now, specially, walk humbly with God when your graces are strong and vigorous, .... The best man is in the church the man who is willing to be a doormat for all to wipe their boots on .
Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 15, 2009, 11:29:35 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 15, 2009, 11:06:51 PM
"burns up" is rather connotative. ..having the bulb turn black on the ends is one thing - but is the lamp loosing gas or what?

in a way, yes, it loose gas.
it getting transformed to something else.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on March 15, 2009, 11:49:13 PM

nice SG bill. clever idea on the implementation of the variable gap. 2 thumbs up.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 15, 2009, 11:50:33 PM

@all

Yes ufo are , and have been here for a long time, but what are they , or why are they here. But i don't care how is right or wrong , we all need to question inner motivation because they will only be easy obtain goals if base on good intent , a pure heart if you will , there are many different faith but are all base on the the heart , there is 2 truth love and fear both are the motors of the world, i my self think we are good and can make a difference when we get down to it , i prefer the religion base on being a jesus then then story of his teaching , because he did tell us all about it , most are still at the first degree of interpretation , but the upper level of church know all about it, we all have amazing abilities that are hidden by false education , now its time to decide to do good , because its so easy to do bad , there are no friends in todays world when it comes to money , god what us to each find our own answers , that is the goal of life growing at each step the all will give us , the truth will not be on tv or in a dictionary , the goal is the trip the voyage true knowledge , the answer is also the goal that is the trip in the first place, nothing else , we all have our own truth , and is the only one that maters anyway. So i don't really see any good or goodly behavior i questioning someone else faith . The first goal is seeing our self for what we are not what our ego is hiding fro us.

Lets god and good heart teach you the way of life that will save us , or else ...

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 15, 2009, 11:51:31 PM

when we speek about CHRIST .....

do we speek of the MAN JESUS or CHRIST

do we speek of 1 or the other or both??

jesus was his NAME .......... CHRIST IS WHAT HE KNEW .........

CHRIST MEANS TO KNOW ;)

NOW IS IT THE MAN OR THE MIND!?!?!?!?!?!

CHRIST IS IN US ALL ... ;)

IT IS NOT THE MAN OR THE WOMAN IT IS THY MIND!!!

IST

MAKE OF THIS WHAT YOU WILL...... so the correct interpertation of jesus christ would be JESUS TO KNOW .... HE KNEW HIS MIND ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 15, 2009, 11:55:35 PM

@ist

Nice answer , i see we are talking the same language , your wording is a bit more to the piont tho. Lol ;D ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on March 15, 2009, 11:58:57 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on March 15, 2009, 11:51:31 PM
when we speek about CHRIST .....

do we speek of the MAN JESUS or CHRIST

do we speek of 1 or the other or both??

jesus was his NAME .......... CHRIST IS WHAT HE KNEW .........

CHRIST MEANS TO KNOW ;)

NOW IS IT THE MAN OR THE MIND!?!?!?!?!?!

CHRIST IS IN US ALL ... ;)

IT IS NOT THE MAN OR THE WOMAN IT IS THY MIND!!!

IST

MAKE OF THIS WHAT YOU WILL...... so the correct interpertation of jesus christ would be JESUS TO KNOW .... HE KNEW HIS MIND ;)

Christ = Messiah and last one for 2 nite My Brethren
"The woman saith unto him, I know that Messiah cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that unto thee am he."
John 4:25-26

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 16, 2009, 12:03:24 AM

Christ = Messiah

LOL

wate with the rest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

lol

nobody is gonna save YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i beleave it was said when i return ..... I WILL BE LOOKING AT MYSELF!!! HINT HINT .....

LOL

ist!

stop thinking someone is gonna save you .... you MUST SAVE YOURSELF... ;)

YOUR HIGHER SELF IS NOT SO FAR AWAY AS YOU MAY THINK ;) ;) ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS LOOK INSIDE :)

FIND IT ..... AND MERGE ... ;) THEASE TIMES ARE COMMING .. :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 16, 2009, 12:20:38 AM

Sometimes I just want to turn up the bottle when I look at the internet.

- - -

I'm fixing to find the courage to use this magnetic paint on my bare wires. I may wait until tomorrow though.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on March 16, 2009, 12:22:10 AM

in 50hz main lamps, fluorescent lamps' are driven by magnetic core ballasts at low frequency; typically 50hz. however, magnetic ballasts allow sufficient time for the ionized mercury gas in the discharge to recombine between each half cycle of the 50/60Hz supply, necessitating a re-strike of the lamp.
lamp lifetime, audible hum and a noticeable lamp light flicker are significantly reduced if the fluorescent lamps are excited at higher frequencies, for example, above 25kHz. the higher frequency excitation also provides a higher lumens/watt output, yielding higher overall efficiency, as there is no longer sufficient time for significant re-combination to occur. ;D
prior to ignition, an 8watt tube requires a peak voltage of approximately 200-300v to initiate conduction, but once struck the tube voltage drops to around 56v after warm-up period.

flicker is caused by worn bulbs and/or ballasts. the striking voltage of the lamp increases both with age and decreasing temperature and the ballast can not supply it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 16, 2009, 12:23:58 AM

@ MK1 and Wilby:

Thanks guys for your comments on my SG. Everyone here has helped me in one way or another on this, and many other experiments I have done. I really appreciate the sharing of knowledge we seem to have here on this topic.

I am going to take Al's advice and get 2 small lead acid batteries and hook them up. Once I get the feel for this cool device, I will begin playing with modifications that will hopefully improve it. If not, I have about 50 3055 transistors so I can try different things without much worry.

The screw mechanism seems to be a bit overkill but I have seen an improvement in output by "fine tuning" it. The range is a bit more broad than I first thought but, there is a range of distance that helps. My guess without measuring is that it is about .100". I can tune much closer than that but I did not know this at the time I built it. I just wanted all of the adjustments I could have in case I didn't wind the coil correctly or made some other error in construction.

Once again, thank you to all of you for helping me on this project, as well as all of the others I have been attempting. you are a great group of fellows. (and Gal.)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on March 16, 2009, 12:35:20 AM

bill, i saw you ask about neos in your youtube sg comments. try it out, stick another set of neos on top of the ones you have. i wouldn't glue or epoxy them just yet, a wrap of electrical tape around the circumference and their own magnetism should be fine for some quick tests. i got much better output by adding some neos and opening the gap a bit more vrs one set of neos and a much smaller gap. it should accelerate to top rpm faster with more neos also. glad you got it built!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 16, 2009, 12:40:41 AM

@mk1

i have something commeing in the mail for you soon 8)

my previous investor has contacted me agin an OLD INVESTOR whom i have knowen a few years now.... ;)

12 cores are being purchised and 6 are going to me and 6 to you mk1

from us they will sent out to be confirmed and idependently tested

to work with in the fcc guide lines ...

so where does this go ....

ill tell ya

OUR COLLECTOR RINGS ARE ALREADY BEING SOLD IN LARGE AMOUNTS ...... AND THEY AINT BUYING THEM FROM US ...... HA!!!!

I DO LOVE CHANGE .... ;D

TIME FOR A BETTER ONE EH!?!?!?!?!?!?! LOL!!!

!ST!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 16, 2009, 12:48:18 AM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on March 16, 2009, 12:35:20 AM
bill, i saw you ask about neos in your youtube sg comments. try it out, stick another set of neos on top of the ones you have. i wouldn't glue or epoxy them just yet, a wrap of electrical tape around the circumference and their own magnetism should be fine for some quick tests. i got much better output by adding some neos and opening the gap a bit more vrs one set of neos and a much smaller gap. it should accelerate to top rpm faster with more neos also. glad you got it built!!

@ Wilby:

Thanks! What I was wondering about was adding 4 more neos along the diameter of the rotor. In other words, I have seen these motors built with 2 magnets. They did not seem to turn very fast. I have used 4 and it turns well. If I used 8 equally spaced along the circumference, would this increase the rpm? Or, better yet, would this increase the output in any way? Or, should I stack the neos as you have suggested? So many questions about my new device here. I am really having fun with this thing. Thanks for your input, I really appreciate it.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 16, 2009, 12:59:37 AM

@all

http://www.disclose.tv/viewvideo/19942/Dr__Michio_Kaku___2012_Solar_Storms_Are_Coming/

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on March 16, 2009, 01:05:15 AM

on a smaller diameter rotor you have to be careful so as not to 'overlap' the magnets fields... you want about a magnet and a half betwixt each magnet. 8 might be pushing it on that vcr rotor, maybe six? i guess you would be the best judge of that. personally, i would play with stacking them first, just because it's easier to do then adding more to the circumference.
more input voltage will give you more rpm, try 20v or 24v on the input. i'd throw a wrap of electrical tape around the edge if you do this, flying magnets hurt ;)
my first bedini sg was on a bicycle wheel which made it really easy to add/remove magnets. played with 1- 12 magnets. i don't have a tach, but if i recall, adding more magnets along the circumference didn't increase the rpm, just reduced the time it took to reach top rpm. damn, i really should keep better notes, sorry.

having fun is what it's all about ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 16, 2009, 01:26:42 AM

@ Wilby:

Thanks. That makes a lot of sense to me. I am going to swap out to two 12 volt lead/acid cells which should, as you say, increase the rpm. I forgot about the overlapping fields. I did read this somewhere and I am glad you pointed this out.
Yes, my magnets are super glued first, expoxyied second, and have three wraps of tape for safety. It would be easy to unwrap the tape and try double staking the neos which I will do. There are so many variables to play with it will keep me busy for a while. I want to try a JT circuit on the input, and then the output and see what happens,

It spins up pretty fast as it is. The only thing I have noticed is that if I decrease the resistance in the beginning, and then add it as it speeds up, it goes faster quicker.

Thanks again.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 16, 2009, 01:50:45 AM

Just thought that I would chuck this in here: I'm getting better results with 2n2222 transistors than with the 2n3904 transistors.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 16, 2009, 02:06:55 AM

Jadaro:

That's good to hear. I had to buy a bunch of stuff to get by the min. and I ended up grabbing a bunch of those as well. I have not tried any of them yet, but this is good news. They look a little more robust to me with their metal caps. Easier to heat sink if we need to.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 16, 2009, 02:26:20 AM

@ jadaro2600

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 15, 2009, 08:42:51 PM
Can anyone tell me why this LED is lighting up like this?

Your circuit is functionally equivalent to a JT with the wires forming the transformer. The capacitor in series with the LED blocks DC but will pass AC and the LED can be lit with an AC voltage. AC meaning any voltage which is not at a constant DC voltage level thus pulsed DC would be considered AC in this case.

As the current starts to flow in one wire it creates an increasing magnetic field around the wire. This increasing magnetic field then creates a current in the second wire. Two wires twisted together make a very simple transformer. Making the wires longer will increase the current produced in the second wire. Adding iron or ferrite near the wires will effectively increase the electrical length of the wires and thus also increase the current produced in the second wire.

You seem to be the only one actually doing JT research. BTW, PNP and NPN transistors are functionally identical except they use opposite polarity voltages and adding two capacitors in series creates a combination with half the capacitance and twice the voltage capability.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 16, 2009, 03:03:10 AM

Quote from: xee2 on March 16, 2009, 02:26:20 AM
@ jadaro2600

Your circuit is functionally equivalent to a JT with the wires forming the transformer. The capacitor in series with the LED blocks DC but will pass AC and the LED can be lit with an AC voltage. AC meaning any voltage which is not at a constant DC voltage level thus pulsed DC would be considered AC in this case.

As the current starts to flow in one wire it creates an increasing magnetic field around the wire. This increasing magnetic field then creates a current in the second wire. Two wires twisted together make a very simple transformer. Making the wires longer will increase the current produced in the second wire. Adding iron or ferrite near the wires will effectively increase the electrical length of the wires and thus also increase the current produced in the second wire.

You seem to be the only one actually doing JT research. BTW, PNP and NPN transistors are functionally identical except they use opposite polarity voltages and adding two capacitors in series creates a combination with half the capacitance and twice the voltage capability.

@xee2,

This is good news - to have some questions answered! thank you xee2 :) This might solve my high voltage problems, I'm lacking any capacitors that could hold better than 500 volts, and I'm wondering if there some way to connect them so that I can mathematically dumb down the results. SO, connecting them in series will cut the voltage ( divided by the number of capacitors - given they're identical )?

I've been calling my twisted pairs a linear transformer - they're also called gimmicks if they're used as a capacitor. I'm hoping that these simplify things for any numbers that my evolve out of it - they would be independent of any ferrite or iron after all.

@Pirate88179, These are from the shack - sorry to disappoint you, :( ..they're the standard semicircular plastic ones. I too recently ordered a bunch of stuff from electronics goldmine, but I have yet to receive any tracking information. If you ordered the ones made of metal, I commend you, they do seem more physically sound than these plastics. It's really hard to monitor temperature on the plastics, either they're smoking or they're fine. ...and if they're operation is in question, testing with a finger usually winds up in a scald. :P.

I obtained a pint of magnetic pain for $13 - but I haven't wanted to do anything today ( it's Sunday ). The container is made of plastic with a metal lid. Out of curiosity, I brought a magnet near the side and it sticks - which is good news - sticks on the bottom too. Moving the magnet around on the surface produces odd shifty sensations.

@all,

I'm having a hard time figuring out how to measure output voltage in my circuit. I can drop the capacitor on the right side of this and add it somewhere else - I have plenty of switching diodes for rectifying - but there is no 'pickup coil' in this design - otherwise things would be easier = just bridge rectify the pickup coil and bridge the output terminals with a high voltage capacitor and take a measurement.

Looking at my previous diagram, has anyone got any suggestions? I'll post another one with more working are - feel free to take it to paint :P

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 16, 2009, 03:49:50 AM

I got bored and made a PNP type Joule Thief circuit diagram - tested it; it seems to work fine also. Blue indicates the negative side of the circuit - notice I flipped the battery.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on March 16, 2009, 07:30:12 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on March 16, 2009, 12:03:24 AM
Christ = Messiah

LOL

wate with the rest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

lol

nobody is gonna save YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i beleave it was said when i return ..... I WILL BE LOOKING AT MYSELF!!! HINT HINT .....

LOL

ist!

stop thinking someone is gonna save you .... you MUST SAVE YOURSELF... ;)

YOUR HIGHER SELF IS NOT SO FAR AWAY AS YOU MAY THINK ;) ;) ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS LOOK INSIDE :)

FIND IT ..... AND MERGE ... ;) THEASE TIMES ARE COMMING .. :)

IST . DONT YOU EVER MOCK CHRIST . !!! >:( your reject him he rejects you ! . WISE UP SOUL SEARCHER !. I already see where your Headed . Hope you like you ass well done :o Ever seen THE STAND ?
And for those of you that would rather get stoned and drunk than listen to the truth ,well thats SATEN for ya . He would rather have you sleep ..

GADGET

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 16, 2009, 11:19:25 AM

@ jadaro2600

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 16, 2009, 03:03:10 AM
( divided by the number of capacitors - given they're identical )?

Yes.

Does your circuit work without the 1 uF capacitor?

NOTE: The following circuits are for AC inputs. The input voltage must be greater than 0.7 volts for peak meters and 1.4 volts for full wave rectifier in order to bias diodes on.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 16, 2009, 11:36:36 AM

Quote from: xee2 on March 16, 2009, 11:19:25 AM
Does your circuit work without the 1 uF capacitor?

No, but with reduced capacitance.

*edit "It will work with a smaller capacitor"

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 16, 2009, 11:49:40 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on March 16, 2009, 07:30:12 AM
IST . DONT YOU EVER MOCK CHRIST . !!! >:( your reject him he rejects you ! . WISE UP SOUL SEARCHER !. I already see where your Headed . Hope you like you ass well done :o Ever seen THE STAND ?
And for those of you that would rather get stoned and drunk than listen to the truth ,well thats SATEN for ya . He would rather have you sleep ..

GADGET

DROP IT!! LAST THING I WANT TO DO IS RIP U A NEW ASS......

CUZ YOUR WRONG .... OK

THEY MODIFYED SH!T HENCE IF YOU KNEW THE REAL DEAL YOU WOULD NOT POST THINGS THAT CAN BE FOUND WITH EASE

;)

AND YOU IF WERE IN TUNE.......U WOULD NOT SIT WHERE YOU ARE ....

DROP IT !!!

IST!!

BTW CHRIST IS YOUR MIND.... YOU ARE AL ...... NUF SAID!!

I added a pic of my new jt core ....

i also added 2 more pics..... think bout them ;)

this is not a free engery device lol ...it is a conversion device ... there is no mass curcuitry involved .... this is a simple device constructed of balling wire ..... ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 16, 2009, 02:35:23 PM

im working on the mk3 coil this will be sent out for testing .....

i installed a 15 turn 1k pot ... i am now able to make it sing ... i will install only half wave rectifers ..... on all 6 outputs ... jt flyback WILL NOT BE USED ...

i will then put caps on all feeds i was thinking of useing the ramma flasher units i have to drain the caps provideing 2 feeds of LARGE OUT PUT ...

with out the special high amp mod ;)

ist!

ill post a pic when i get to finishing it ... :)

tip when you are able to light leds from the pickups.. both ways .. you notice the jt light should not dim much at all when you add additinal leds to all of the coils.. when in the CORRECT DIRRECTION ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on March 16, 2009, 02:51:34 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on March 16, 2009, 02:35:23 PM
im working on the mk3 coil this will be sent out for testing .....

i installed a 15 turn 1k pot ... i am now able to make it sing ... i will install only half wave rectifers ..... on all 6 outputs ... jt flyback WILL NOT BE USED ...

i will then put caps on all feeds i was thinking of useing the ramma flasher units i have to drain the caps provideing 2 feeds of LARGE OUT PUT ...

with out the special high amp mod ;)

ist!

ill post a pic when i get to finishing it ... :)

tip when you are able to light leds from the pickups.. both ways .. you notice the jt light should not dim much at all when you add additinal leds to all of the coils.. when in the CORRECT DIRRECTION ...

real good Job on your ego william . watch it come to pass William . You can wipe your feet on me anytime . your welcome .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 16, 2009, 04:15:08 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on March 16, 2009, 11:49:40 AM
this is not a free engery device lol ...it is a conversion device ... there is no mass curcuitry involved .... this is a simple device constructed of balling wire ..... ;)

nice toroid.

i am currently making one a bit like that.
4 inchs inner diameter, 4 inchs high, 4 inchs thick.
the first garden wire spool is already wounded.
next weekend i will bring it to my brother in law to weld the spools together so i can continu windding it.
i am gona put heat shrink tubing where the welds are.

@Jadaro2600 and electricme
you gave me an idea about eddy current tapping.

i have made a garden wire coils, but this one ends are not weldded together.
i will test it as soon as i have transistors.

my last one burned last week, soldered it one time too often.
i need a breadboard too or i will keep burning them...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 16, 2009, 04:19:46 PM

@TheNOP,

Does it have to be so big? ..Can't you simply tune it down for testing purposes?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 16, 2009, 04:46:58 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 16, 2009, 04:19:46 PM
Does it have to be so big? ..Can't you simply tune it down for testing purposes?

depend for what i want to use it for.
as you might guess, i won't use 1.5 volts on this one. ;)

i already have i bunch of smaller cores made with the same garden wire for testing.
3 2 inchs internal, 1 inch high, with 2, 3 and 4 layers width. <<---opps edited
2 ~half inch internal, half inch high, with 2 and 4 layers.

those have been tested and work good with the right number of turns on the jt coils.

B.T.W.
i found out that a sheet of paper is not the best thing to use.
super glue will pass through the paper and glue the whole thing to the pipe.
use plastic to cover your pipes, book covering plastic work good.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 16, 2009, 04:49:38 PM

cant waite to see yours

THENOP

gadget relax im working on it .... you know how damm hard it has been ... ;) egos are a pain ..... i know this first hand ...

i thought i would post this ...

to help anyone i can out with this...

i am able to light the jt lite ... and my leds on my mk3 windings.. both ways AND THE JT LIGHT STAYS LITT.... HUMMMMMM....

BUT I KNOW I GOT THEM RIGHT WHEN I ADD A SECOND LED AND THE JT LIGHT DOES NOT DIMMMM

WHEN I GET IT WRONG IT SINGGGGGS .... meaning i have RESONANT TRANSFORMER ACTION .....

i do not want this yet ... altho WHEN BUILT PROPERLY ... WE/YOU CAN MAKE EXECLENT USE OF THIS .....

GADGET KNOWS THIS .....

;)

hence input will drop out put will increase both the resonant transformer action and the good stuff.....

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 16, 2009, 04:59:09 PM

@TheNOP,

The idea is that any oscillator has the potential to create radio waves.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 16, 2009, 07:29:35 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on March 16, 2009, 04:15:08 PM

@Jadaro2600 and electricme
you gave me an idea about eddy current tapping.

the core needs to be made of insulated wire .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 16, 2009, 07:50:38 PM

8) ..some work being done with magnetic paint. Just an hour or so, And I'll be able to get some results. This paint is very ferromagnetic. ( dripped sideways and onto a magnet. That other stuff I bought was crap, a big grey slug in the bottom of the can, and it didn't mix well at all )

This was dipped, I may brush the stuff on other tests, it seems it would waste less.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 16, 2009, 08:12:31 PM

Preemptive Circuit diagram. Blue is the optional component I'm testing, the rest above it is the voltage testing area. Point out any flaws please.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 16, 2009, 09:02:18 PM

Well, ...I lost 2 volts with the magnetic paint, so it's back to the drawing board.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 16, 2009, 09:03:59 PM

Hi everyone,

Wow, this thread is like a fast paced novel. It even has some drama worked in!

I am happy to see that the missing members have shown up.

Also, welcome to all the newcomers!

I have a note I made to myself to make a MK2, 3, ...8. Also, to use my Stubblefield generator that I made for a battery input and see how it works as a jt. (and of course the ground is beginning to warm up so an earth battery in place of the battery is in order too.)

I will be buying that hand held oscilloscope if it is still available, and some of the pots that are multiple turned. I need them for the tuning.and then... well, I am not too sure...

Oh, I want to share this dream fragment. I think that at this stage someone here will know what to do with it. I am still not, but I think the jt is where the dream applies.

It isn't really a dream, it is just a piece of downloaded info that says, make 3 coils on 3 axes. I think jadaro's coiled coil and twisted transformer are getting close to this 3 axes idea, so... for what it is worth, there it is.

I will wind something tomorrow. I need a nap already. I have been reading this thread for 7 hours and my eyes are too tired to make something today.

It is great to be back.

jeanna
EDIT
I really love Nassim Haramein's work. I hope he doesn't mind.
I am adding this little pic to show what I mean. If you imagine the core toroid as jadaro has made it then look at the energy directions traveling around the toroid itself. I think that defines 2 axes, then add the spiral that travels through the center. It is on a third axis. A pic is worth 1,000 words:

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 16, 2009, 09:34:35 PM

@ jadaro2600

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 16, 2009, 08:12:31 PM
Point out any flaws please.

Not a flaw, but a reminder. When the LED is in the circuit it will limit the collector voltage to the LED forward voltage drop (usually about 3.5 volts), so any voltage changes due to the transformer will not be evident.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 16, 2009, 09:59:42 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 16, 2009, 04:59:09 PM
The idea is that any oscillator has the potential to create radio waves.

????
i don't see you point.
care to give me more details of what you have in mind ?

see this MIT lecture, you will find it quite interesting.
it will help you to understand why you have the results you had with the mag paint.

well, the whole 8.xx lectures are interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3eI4SVDyME&feature=PlayList&p=C2CEECFD938FD494&index=16
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxuGDEz8wDg&feature=PlayList&p=C2CEECFD938FD494&index=17

Quote from: Mk1 on March 16, 2009, 07:29:35 PM
the core needs to be made of insulated wire.

garden wire is insulated.
the way i done it is like an insulated coil, not far from a slotted toroid.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 16, 2009, 10:20:47 PM

@Jeanna

Welcome back , Nassim Haramein , is a great man , even if he did not invent the flower of life , he is one of the best at explaining it for every one to understand , he is one of the most important thinker of our age.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 16, 2009, 10:25:29 PM

Quote from: xee2 on March 16, 2009, 09:34:35 PM
@ jadaro2600

Not a flaw, but a reminder. When the LED is in the circuit it will limit the collector voltage to the LED forward voltage drop (usually about 3.5 volts), so any voltage changes due to the transformer will not be evident.

I've noted this - I take measurements with and without the LED in place. After coating with magnetic paint, a reduction in voltage occurred. This is puzzling to me.

@TheNOP,

I've watched both of these lecture - in fact, ALL of them from the 8.02 series. Very interesting stuff.

@jeanna,

I've noticed that smaller versions of my coil about a coil design don't work as well. There seems to be a g-spot with these types - which is only slightly comforting.

I like the picture though - it's thought provoking. But I still don't know what you mean by three axis. I have my own ideas, ..such as trisecting volumetrically a sphere ..and putting soils in that configuration, but things get complicated.

It seems wise to have the voltage collecting medium at the center of everything collapsing.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 16, 2009, 10:43:57 PM

@jadaro

Are you trying to tell us something that we don't get yet , i admirer your persistence in expressing your idea , i am still not sure of your motive , can you lite a neon on your experiment ? Or make usable voltage ? except lighting led because any jt dose that. Maybe people don't see a point in what you are doing except pure research , your experiment show well why the jt works in the first place induction between the wires , but i still am i bit lost on why perusing that alternative since its not really anything new , now please make one of those with many wire run the jt on two of those and see if there anything in the other coil.Sorry if you feel your idea are not followed but people don't follow what they don't understand.

@all

Some people earn a living making people fight on forums and prevent proper exchange of idea , google dirty dozen , but there is more to it. And yes there are some trolls on this site, why are there none in our jt topic , maybe because there are no tpu in the tittle , or we don't know who they are.

Dose any one knows what tpu stands for. and tell me what we are doing here.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 16, 2009, 10:47:51 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 16, 2009, 10:25:29 PM
But I still don't know what you mean by three axis. I have my own ideas, ..such as trisecting volumetrically a sphere ..and putting soils in that configuration, but things get complicated.

It seems wise to have the voltage collecting medium at the center of everything collapsing.

I think you're on it. I don't know exactly what I mean either. But, it has always made sense to me that if we follow the shapes of nature, we will find ourselves wealthy with abundance, the way nature is. I don't see why this should not apply to electricity and magnetism.

I am sure you know what I mean by 3 axes. x,y,z.

Here is how I think it relates to this cosmic geometry.

The x,y axes are described in the locus of points going around the height and width of the toroid.
The z axis is described either in the wires that you (and others like ist) have made with the garden wire, or in the collection of it all in the secondaries that go through the center.

But, I am still intrigued by the picture that shows the energy shooting both up and down in a spiral formation. And this reminds me of your linear transformer (I think) where you twisted 2 wires tightly around each other.

So, I am wondering if you could not get a better result with your twisted-2 wires as collector wires than the regular secondaries we have all been making from simple mag wires.

thank you (and others too) for your interesting work,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 16, 2009, 11:09:12 PM

I don't know if this will help or hurt. I just added the 3 axes.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 16, 2009, 11:14:11 PM

@jeanna
add a spin to it and you got yourself a pulsar.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulsar

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 16, 2009, 11:18:52 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 16, 2009, 10:43:57 PM
@jadaro

Are you trying to tell us something that we don't get yet , i admirer your persistence in expressing your idea , i am still not sure of your motive , can you lite a neon on your experiment ? Or make usable voltage ? except lighting led because any jt dose that. Maybe people don't see a point in what you are doing except pure research , i know about the toroid supply problem , your experiment show well why the jt works in the first place induction between the wires , but i still am i bit lost on why perusing that alternative since its not really anything new , now please make one of those with many wire run the jt on two of those and see if there anything in the other coil.Sorry if you feel your idea are not followed but people don't follow what they don't understand.

@all

Some people earn a living making people fight on forums and prevent proper exchange of idea , google dirty dozen , but there is more to it. And yes there are some trolls on this site, why are there none in our jt topic , maybe because there are no tpu in the tittle , or we don't know who they are.

Dose any one knows what tpu stands for. and tell me what we are doing here.

Easy one first: Toroidal Power Unit.

Hard one next...

The Idea is to find a configuration where NO ferrite is used. Which I admit is a stretch for those high voltage situations... But when compiling information, a monotony of configurations can actually hide potentials in a system. Varying the configuration ultimately leads to innovations. I know you know this.

I also should point out that...I'm not going to dance about the fact that not many people are following my idea, no mystery there, there is however, someone on youtube whose done similar work - where he got his idea from is a mystery to me. here's his video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOcMylA1xdk&NR=1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOcMylA1xdk&NR=1).

My intentions are to minimize losses in the system - a toroid will loose to eddy currents...unless they are being constructive to the process - but the real idea is that flyback transformers are used for creating voltage and oscillations - so, when it comes to frequency, they're ( ferites ) limited...so are transistors, etc.

Your designs are good enough - I'm just innovating horizontally / tangentially at this point.

...which is why I tested some magnetic paint. And as it turns out, doesn't work so well an the outside. Herein lies the rub. If the ferrite or iron powders or magnetic paints are decreasing the efficacy of the setup, then obviously something can be improved - I don't need to stress this here - especially after posting this on page 396.

Anyway... Replacing the ferrite with some element which utilizes the eddy current losses is the idea - It's something a few people have been exploring here.

Recently I've entertained the idea of using a Villard circuit to boost voltages - it requires AC voltage, or something close. These are also called Greinacher circuits. Of course it requires AC ..and not DC, so some modification to my coil around coil setup would indeed have to occur.

*Edit ... from a previous post

Quotesphere ..and putting soils in that configuration, but

to "putting coils in that"...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 16, 2009, 11:20:59 PM

Quoteadd a spin to it and you got yourself a pulsar.

Yes,

It IS spinning. All the energy is spinning in all those directions. Electricity and magnetism twirling around in a great cosmic dance. Shall we?

;)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 16, 2009, 11:34:51 PM

Quote from: jeanna on March 16, 2009, 10:47:51 PM

I am sure you know what I mean by 3 axes. x,y,z.

I thought you were talking about some other configuration. Silly me.

I see what you mean now - it's too bad I don't have any jacks laying around ( the toys ). These made from steel or something might be interesting, a nice plastic would make a neutral setup.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 16, 2009, 11:59:17 PM

@jadaro

Base on my reading of toroid the the most efficient at containing eddy current , and i say that energy lost are a lot less , then traditional toroid, but i believe eddy current is a good thing it permits energy to be dispersed in the core and the air , eddy current is still electricity or energy you will minimize the lost if you pick it up ,the law say that the current is the same in all coil , you just add more coil , its stupid simple. Then on a toroid its also a transmitter , just google it toroidal transmitter , you will be looking at a jt , any radio will also prove it , if i had 100 radio they would all be picking it up , even a thousand , lost energy i say lost opportunity. The core reaction to current is part of the magic here , the reaction to the current is manifested is a magnetic way that is part of it to a major part , copper is not exhibiting the same property , they can make excess energy from the vacuum effect when pulsed at high speed , but that is not all the jt is about. Copper on copper its induction.

Idea to try your wire coil around a toroid , maybe make a core of magnetic paint and bigger copper wire and one of iron wire , you make coil and encase them in paint , keeping the end of the core . Those could be pulsed form the center of the toroid or jt coil type outside and release the excess eddy current in the core .
Also try many wires pulse 2 of them and check the output from the others , maybe pulse 2 pair at different freq.

@all

The otto tup is 2 toroid copper core , that is nice but he is missing iron , but if you think about what its doing maybe the upper coil is picking up energy just like a radio coil.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 17, 2009, 12:00:59 AM

Jadaro,

I just watched the video you posted.

Thank you. This is very good. I think I will have to try it first. I want to see what a secondary will do on that, for starters. cool.

Also, I am not sure it is important to minimize the losses right away. You are getting something, right? Nathan Stubblefield used copper and iron in his generator which is basically this joule thief. He put up with losses we don't have here. The iron has resistance that copper doesn't have but he was using the galvanic difference to start up his joule thief. All the output from his joule thief came from the secondary.

As we have shown over and over, the jt circuit takes very little to run itself, and, the secondary is where the payload is. Then what do the losses matter? As long as the circuit is running, there is a way to extract the energy through the secondary. (At least that is how it looks from here.)

I am tired now. I will try this out in the morning.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 17, 2009, 12:17:53 AM

Quote from: jeanna on March 16, 2009, 11:20:59 PM
Yes,

It IS spinning. All the energy is spinning in all those directions. Electricity and magnetism twirling around in a great cosmic dance. Shall we?

;)

jeanna

welcome back Jeanna

i was trying to upload a video i made for every one to you tube all night .... with out luck :) so... yea

i guess we DONT GET TO SEE IT ON A PUBLIC NOTE YET ... this is ok .... it was demonstrating ... transformer and non transformer action in the mk3 coil ...

i will keep trying if i manage to get it online i will post the link

the cosmic dance ;)

lets try it out :)

ist!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 17, 2009, 12:26:14 AM

@Jeanna

Vortex power , nature's own .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 17, 2009, 12:37:54 AM

@all

Any of you that tried to tune a guitar or base or any type of string , when the 2 string star to sound the same you can hear a oscillation that stops when they are perfectly tuned , that phenomenon is showing 2 freq close to one another give a third one if the same the oscillation stops, the third has more power the peak are greater , that can be simulated on a toroid with 2 jt circuit on it.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 17, 2009, 01:59:39 AM

General theory question for anyone: ...an affirmation.

What we have when we bifilar wrap and toroid, and then supplement with a pickup coil could also be called a trifilar winding?

If yes,
Say I have a trifilar winding where the bifilar elements of the coil are of equal length and the third wire forming the trifilar element is longer than the bifilar winding; while pulsed currents are made to flow in opposite directions in the bifilar winding, and the third wire is in proximity to the bifilar winding - will this third wire produce AC current?

Given the strangeness of my wording: ...will the third wire, the 'pickup' coil produce AC current?

I'm posting with the expectation that the answers to the above questions are yes.

Generally speaking then; to go without a ferrite core, all someone would have to do is create a trifilar wound transformer, yes?

- - - - -

I recently wound several hundreds of turns of wire around a needle, overlapping the coils - it's an ugly job really, it about four layers of 30 gage wire with the solenoid being about 3/4 on an inch long and 1/8 inch in diameter. I then wrapped this with two layers of 26 gage wire in the same direction ( both wound clockwise - not opposing ).

I then removed the needle, and inserted the transformer into the joule thief circuit and tested it. It works with either coil going to the base - current made to flow in opposite directions. The strange thing about this is...using my most recently posted schematic, removing the LED from the circuit, I get a higher voltage reading when I make current flow through the smaller gage wire on the inside than if I set the smaller gage wire to pass to the collector.

These results make it easy for me to just add another coil - especially if the greater voltage is being collected on the outside, rather than the inside. I read in a few old book that it doesn't matter that the coil is returning over itself because the over-all flow isn't changing rotational direction.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 17, 2009, 02:07:01 AM

since they wont let me upload my vid ...

i decided to wind a PICK UP COIL ..

this is what i did ... i used 22ga enamiled magnet wire .. just like mk1 did .. but i started with 8' lengths of it ... 10 of them then i put all 10 in a cordless drill and TWISTED ALL OF THEM as 1 ...

so in 1 pick up coil i have 20 ends 10 outputs....

i then wound this on my iron garden wire core ... now i did the mk2 winding config on it ..only half way across the ring ...... but i went 12 up and 12 back ... intertwined ... now this only takes up 1/4 of the ringgggg ... so i could add 3 more as this one is ... and that is ONLY 1 LAYOR ON THE RINGGGGG ..... i used 14 ga as the primary jt winds ...

so that now is 80 ends 40 outputs ..... of all the same .... ;)

NOW WHERE WILL THIS GO !?!?!

IST!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 17, 2009, 02:18:50 AM

I added a third coil to my previously described bobbin-like coil, and it only picks up 2V ..vs the 20v that's accumulating at the collector.

edit: I added the needle core to the thing, and it increased the voltage reading from 20V to 27V ...another interesting one. If I could just find some very lite gage iron wire - I might have something interesting to test.

@ist, there's no telling :P

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 17, 2009, 02:29:11 AM

i have decided to advance the basic unit ..

are you in mk1?

i will use the mk4 config...

utilizing pnp and npn switching useing mosfets ... yes i have them already for months now ..

it will have 4 14 gage coils and 4 PICKUP COILS of 22 gage

im thinking for the SAKE OF EASE each pickup coil will be 1 output .... so i will have 4 outputs ...

this is the MK4X4

ist !

ill add a few pics soon ...

i have a bunch of thease diodes ...... something like 3amp @upto 800v i have 3000 or so..... should work good for half wave rectifiers ..

here is a simple dwg i made ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 17, 2009, 03:11:16 AM

@ jadaro2600

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 17, 2009, 02:18:50 AM
I added a third coil to my previously described bobbin-like coil, and it only picks up 2V ..vs the 20v that's accumulating at the collector.

??? How many turns did you use for the added coil? I was expecting the voltage to be multiplied. So I guess the transformer is not working the way I thought it was. Did you make your coil as in following drawing?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 17, 2009, 03:21:46 AM

@jadaro

You only have induction with copper no transformer effect here.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 17, 2009, 06:08:35 AM

you know what my problem is lol

i cant stop changeing my mind....

lol
i will rewind this unit and make the first mk2 garden wire core unit ... with litz style wire 10 strand the pickup coils will be as mk2 coil

so i will require 40 22gage wires twisted in 4 groups of 10 and the pickups will be wound bifillar in the mk1 way...

ist

i took a few pics when the core was wound for the mk4x4 here they are it is now wound as a mk2 ... ill add pics later on when i finish the other side of windings..

this pic is 1 8' picup coil after being twiisted im down to about 7' :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 17, 2009, 01:00:37 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 17, 2009, 01:59:39 AM

I then removed the needle, and inserted the transformer into the joule thief circuit and tested it. It works with either coil going to the base - current made to flow in opposite directions. The strange thing about this is...using my most recently posted schematic, removing the LED from the circuit, I get a higher voltage reading when I make current flow through the smaller gage wire on the inside than if I set the smaller gage wire to pass to the collector.

Jadaro,

Would you please explain this again?

Are you only connecting this needle wound bit that is in the galactic center?

Is no other part of the toroid connected in your circuit?

I will try something like this. I like this. I wonder if the galactic center is the inflow or the outflow of the energy in this system? Good. It is only 10 AM. I can get started!

thank you,

jeanna

ist, keep trying?? (I have never been successful uploading anything to youtube.myself)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 17, 2009, 01:25:49 PM

Apparently last night, in my experimentation, I confused a few people,

For clarification; I simply wound a bunch of 30 gage wire around a needle, and then a bunch of 26 gage wire around that, and then a third 26 gage around that. The number of turns was increasingly less - however the voltage produced by the second winding significantly increased if I ran the current through the smaller inner winding. Leaving the needle in gave it better flux response.

I haven't made any new toroids - even though I should - I've been trying to figure the best setup - and as I noticed above, the ignition coil-like setup isn't working like an ignition coil!

@xee2,

Not exactly, but now that you've posted it, I'll test that one later too - it seems worth a try. I've already tested one where the outer winding is a bifilar. with little results.

@jeanna,
No, I haven't tested the galactic center idea yet - I haven't even come up with a setup that wouldn't put all the axis perpendicular to one another.

@Mk1,
Is induction supposed to be a weaker force than flux?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 17, 2009, 02:29:26 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 17, 2009, 01:25:49 PM

@jeanna,
No, I haven't tested the galactic center idea yet - I haven't even come up with a setup that wouldn't put all the axis perpendicular to one another.

Jadaro,
That each coil should be perpendicular to each other was what my 'dream' or 'download' told me to do!

That is why I got excited when I first saw your posts.

thank you, I will be testing this soon.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 17, 2009, 03:10:52 PM

@jadaro

It induce the voltage it has , so max 3 volt , 1.5 max per wire average 3 volts max about 2 volts rectified.

Try again with the inner copper core replaced by iron , it would need insulation .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 17, 2009, 04:27:44 PM

I just made a totally copper thingy. It is made the way the guy on the youtube video linked by jadaro showed.

1" diameter 5 turns bifilar wire around that then continuing with 10 turns around this core. It lit the primary jt led.
It lit it well,
but I did not get anything from 5 turns of a secondary.

If someone else gets good results with this I will try some other numbers of turns etc.

I spose it is an OK way to make a standard joule thief, but it won't be doing what we are doing.

I just reviewed a bunch of my others. Yes they are still good. ;) They didn't weaken from neglect.

On to a MK2 or 3!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on March 17, 2009, 04:39:39 PM

I was woundering if we had Leedskalnin type coil on a toroid.

With a couple pickup coils in bettween the two main coils if it would do any thing.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 17, 2009, 04:41:42 PM

Quote from: slayer007 on March 17, 2009, 04:39:39 PM
I was woundering if we had Leedskalnin type coil on a toroid.

With a couple pickup coils in bettween the two main coils if it would do any thing.

I am a fan of Ed , but i don't really get , what you are saying please , give more details.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 17, 2009, 04:52:40 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 17, 2009, 03:21:46 AM
You only have induction with copper no transformer effect here.

i might not be interpreting this correctly, but...
a transformers can not work without induction.
be it a 2+ coil(s) or an auto transformer(like the second transformer in the fuji's circuit trigger transfo)
curent passing through a wire create a mag field that induce a current in an other nearby wire.

@jadaro
no matter how you do your transformers the most important things are the surface, the speed of change and strength of the mag field.

each turn can add up to a mag field, but for that you need a way to concentrate each loop into one spot, a core.

the problem with cores is that all material you can use today, to concentrate the mag field, have hysteresis limiting the highest frequency at witch the core can work at.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on March 17, 2009, 04:53:32 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 17, 2009, 04:41:42 PM
I am a fan of Ed , but i don't really get , what you are saying please , give more details.

Mark

If you have two coils on a U shaped iron rod.
Both north sides of the coil facing out then you connect the negative side of one coil to the positive side of the other coil.
With a small piece of lite iron tutching both ends of the coils.
Then you pulse a quick jolt of power into the coils the coils they will stay magnetized even when the powers unhooked.

I was woundering if done with a toroid if the magnetic force would keep going around the toriod.
Then if you had a couple pickup coils in bettween the two main coils if you could pick up any power.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 17, 2009, 04:59:16 PM

Quote from: slayer007 on March 17, 2009, 04:53:32 PM
I was woundering if done with a toroid if the magnetic force would keep going around the toriod.
Then if you had a couple pickup coils in bettween the two main coils if you could pick up any power.

the answere is..., no.
no mag field change, no voltage on the secondary.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 17, 2009, 05:08:07 PM

@slayer007

so you are talking about the perpetual motion holder , it is made from a u shape magnet, and are responsible for rotating the magnet wheel. If you put a iron bar on it it closes the magnetic gate so that the current travels trough the magnet,it also store energy , released when the magnet is pulsed. i will try to find my old info on it , and post it.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on March 17, 2009, 05:23:47 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 17, 2009, 05:08:07 PM
@slayer007

so you are talking about the perpetual motion holder , it is made from a u shape magnet, and are responsible for rotating the magnet wheel. If you put a iron bar on it it closes the magnetic gate so that the current travels trough the magnet,it also store energy , released when the magnet is pulsed. i will try to find my old info on it , and post it.

Mark

Yes, MK1 thats what I was talking about.

TheNop just posted it wouldnt work I was hoping the force would bounce back and forth between the iron plate from coil to coil.
But I dont know it was just a thought

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 17, 2009, 05:28:17 PM

@slayer

there is something similar to that holder on a coil , is called a hall sensor or generator.

Mark

But keep you idea coming please.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: rensseak on March 17, 2009, 05:29:07 PM

Quote from: jeanna on March 17, 2009, 04:27:44 PM
I just made a totally copper thingy. It is made the way the guy on the youtube video linked by jadaro showed.

1" diameter 5 turns bifilar wire around that then continuing with 10 turns around this core. It lit the primary jt led.
It lit it well,
but I did not get anything from 5 turns of a secondary.

If someone else gets good results with this I will try some other numbers of turns etc.

I spose it is an OK way to make a standard joule thief, but it won't be doing what we are doing.

I just reviewed a bunch of my others. Yes they are still good. ;) They didn't weaken from neglect.

On to a MK2 or 3!

jeanna

Hi jeanna,

i did it also except that i have about 25 to 30 turns around the core. that is really surprising for me. and look how many LED's. i will let it so till tomorrow morning. i used the wire from a LAN cable.

Norbert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 17, 2009, 05:34:22 PM

@rensseak

Can it run on a single 1.5v battery or only 2 for 3 volts.

@all

http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/electromag/electricity/inductance.html

Also tesla used is toroid iron coil core has stator for motor .

this book is really great http://www.scribd.com/doc/13040608/The-Researches-of-Nikola-Tesla-1894

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: rensseak on March 17, 2009, 05:48:10 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 17, 2009, 05:34:22 PM
@rensseak

Can it run on a single 1.5v battery or only 2 for 3 volts.

@all

http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/electromag/electricity/inductance.html

yes it can. the two bats are low in voltage together they are about 1.1 V and under load they have 0.9 V. i can see one of this two bats is eaven empty.

Norbert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 17, 2009, 06:06:27 PM

@rensseak & rensseak,

This is similar to my setups with the copper coil around a coil - but not exactly - It's actually simpler the way he is doing it.

It would be interesting to know what kind of output voltage you are getting from that in it's current form, as well as it were versus what it would be as just a twisted pair of equal length.

This is the basis of what I've been doing...relatively speaking. ...I suppose that having videos would help my cause, but I'm just too shy atp. And no youtube account consequently.

@all,

In the inner workings out our blocking oscillators - the things which ultimately turn the transistor on and off at high frequency - isn't there fly back voltage created in the coil-to-base when the transistor is turned. ...isn't this what turns the transistor off? ...creating the oscillations in the first place.

Yea, I rtfm, btw. I was just wondering why we're not also capturing that fly back as well.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: rensseak on March 17, 2009, 07:20:08 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 17, 2009, 06:06:27 PM
@rensseak & rensseak,

This is similar to my setups with the copper coil around a coil - but not exactly - It's actually simpler the way he is doing it.

It would be interesting to know what kind of output voltage you are getting from that in it's current form, as well as it were versus what it would be as just a twisted pair of equal length.

This is the basis of what I've been doing...relatively speaking. ...I suppose that having videos would help my cause, but I'm just too shy atp. And no youtube account consequently.

@jadaro2600

the output voltage rectified and with all the LED lighting is 2.01 V and without the LEDs over 9 V.

"as well as it were versus what it would be as just a twisted pair of equal length."

mmmhh i do not anderstand you here fully ???

Norbert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 17, 2009, 07:27:27 PM

Quote from: rensseak on March 17, 2009, 07:20:08 PM

@jadaro2600

the output voltage rectified and with all the LED lighting is 2.01 V and without the LEDs over 9 V.

"as well as it were versus what it would be as just a twisted pair of equal length."

mmmhh i do not anderstand you here fully ???

Norbert

You have a toroid made of a twisted pair. If it weren't a toroid... if it were just a twisted pair.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 17, 2009, 07:34:33 PM

Quote from: rensseak on March 17, 2009, 05:29:07 PM

Hi jeanna,

i did it also except that i have about 25 to 30 turns around the core. that is really surprising for me. and look how many LED's. i will let it so till tomorrow morning. i used the wire from a LAN cable.

Norbert

Excellent!!
I did cut a big enough piece to make more winds. I will try to get 20-30 and see. Now, just to be sure, are you running these many lights as primary jt lights?

By primary jt lights, I mean is it a stack of leds in parallel to each other hooked up between the C and E of the transistor?

Or are they running off a secondary that is added to the copper coil with 25-30 turns? (I think not since you did not mention a secondary, I just want to hear it from you.)

I read beyond this post I quoted and see that the rectified voltage is 9 volts from a 1.1v battery pack. good stuff.

Did you measure the amp draw?

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 17, 2009, 07:55:10 PM

i just built my first mk8 .... looks like it turned out well ...

i have not fired it yet tho i used the same cores ... so my tuneing and winding config should not change ... i did add a few more turns on the pickups i have 10 up and 10 back both sides 30 ga magnet wire 8 strands twisted x2 ...

i have started the MK HV! coil its out put is high voltage over 1000v...

ist!

i will add pics soon aswell we will list thease kits to the page ....

back to work ...... ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 17, 2009, 08:44:02 PM

I'm getting very poor results with a floral wire core. - I get better results out of a linear transformer. It seems as though the iron wire I'm using is stifling the whole process. I've tried my configuration shorted out and disconnected.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 17, 2009, 08:45:50 PM

OK renseak,

I just made 30 turns around this all copper ring. I made it as described in the video and after finishing 5 times around using 24gauge tele wire continued to make 30 turns around that core. Then I twisted it beginning of one to end of the other wire and set it up like a jt.

The light is fair. It is bright. but not as bright as the 2 lights working off a secondary that I took the battery from.

And the amp draw is 29.5mA
The light should be much brighter for that draw.

I cannot get another light to light in parallel to this one either. It puts out the first one and takes a minute or so to light that first one again.

I am wondering if I have hurt the breadboard or something. I cannot get the result you have. Darn.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 17, 2009, 09:05:07 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 17, 2009, 06:06:27 PM
In the inner workings out our blocking oscillators - the things which ultimately turn the transistor on and off at high frequency - isn't there fly back voltage created in the coil-to-base when the transistor is turned. ...isn't this what turns the transistor off? ...creating the oscillations in the first place.

my understanding of it is that it create both: inrush current and back emf.

when the transistor close, the flow to the base cease, opening the transistor back as the current is taking the less resistance path.
when the base feed get back high enough, either feeded by the back emf or the normal emf, the transistor close again.

well, i am not sure at this point if it is the bemf or its induced current in the other jt coil, Lenz's law.

@Mk1
speaking of Lenz's law, just an idea.
putting the jt coils between each pickup coils, one or 2 turns each.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 17, 2009, 09:15:17 PM

@jadara

It do work i bit better but , i can't put enough pickup coil on them and get 30 to 40 volts because of the turn ratio.
If you put more turns on the jt side you need even more to get the out put , if you need low turn low voltage it better , but not for high voltage.

@all

http://www.disclose.tv/viewvideo/20040/Could_Bush_be_arrested_in_Canada__/

Right , that will happen , but still funny.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 17, 2009, 09:17:05 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 17, 2009, 08:44:02 PM
I'm getting very poor results with a floral wire core. - I get better results out of a linear transformer. It seems as though the iron wire I'm using is stifling the whole process. I've tried my configuration shorted out and disconnected.

???
what coils configuration, twisted iron/copper pair ?
what are the differences compair to your needle experiments ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 17, 2009, 09:30:12 PM

Ten turns of floral wire - around which a bifilar coil is wrapped. The results is a bifilar around a coil. I use the bifilar for routs to the base and collector. Collected voltage without an LED is 11.5 volts, but with a load it's 3.05... I've got better configurations.

There is almost nothing coming off the iron wire itself.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 17, 2009, 10:13:00 PM

Needle rail ...

Nice and boring. if anyone cares, the longitudinal direction are the same but the winding direction ccw vs cw... inner is 30g and outter is 26g. 12v unloaded, but the damn thing draws 75ma.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 17, 2009, 10:24:39 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 17, 2009, 09:30:12 PM
Ten turns of floral wire - around which a bifilar coil is wrapped. The results is a bifilar around a coil. I use the bifilar for routs to the base and collector. Collected voltage without an LED is 11.5 volts, but with a load it's 3.05... I've got better configurations.

There is almost nothing coming off the iron wire itself.

One the iron wire did you check only with a meter ? iron is more resistive but still a conductor , and yes it hardly show anything out , put a led on it to get a quick answer , but that said , the circuit could also show almost anything in , think about that one .

Mark

Keep the good work

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 17, 2009, 10:56:50 PM

@MK1,

Did you ever save the pages of your posts on the results you are getting with the MK2-8?

It will save me a lot of research time if you already have the pages marked somewhere in a notebook or something. My most important and amazing results were all in january on pages 108, 168 and 171. It was after that that you made the MK2 and beyond.

I am hoping you can save me a bit of eyeball use, if you know what I mean.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 17, 2009, 11:01:31 PM

@Jeanna

I wish i did , but no , since its all saved in there , and i have a good memory , but what do you need.

Mark

Edit Btw all i have most of the power sup type of toroid , i can test the and help get good results.

The mk1 2x 67 volts on 24 turns , 8 jt turns, to many turns to get tuning done and lowers the turn ratio 2n3904 1k

mk2 4x80 to 120 volts 22 turns 22 awg, tuning resistor , 4 jt turns helps get the voltage up 2n3904

mk8 16x 85 to 140 volts , 27 turns 30 awg 8 wire twisted into one , tuning resistor , 4 jt turns helps get the voltage up 2n2222

The 2n2222 gives a better out put , i am not sure if its connected properly , the base is the same , i usually test both with the trimpot.

But first know your toroid . then get a good design.

If it need 20 jt turns to work good then to get the same voltage out you need 20 turns pickup coil, but 4 turns on the jt side and 20 you 5 time more.

But there is as much power in the pickup coil then the 2 jt coil , i know the amps are low but it still 1.5 volts in 2 coils so the power factor is 3 volt , the toroid and freq will do the rest .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 17, 2009, 11:16:08 PM

the mk8 is all done

here is a pic of it

ist

almost 1/4 way done the MK HV!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 17, 2009, 11:20:42 PM

@jadaro2600
you must really ask yourself what are the differences between your needle and iron coil setup.

the most important things are the number of turn and the connections way(ccw/cw).
the reason i say this is that i can't believe the differences between steal and iron can produce so much discrepancies in the results you can get.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 17, 2009, 11:21:50 PM

@MK1
I just read your reply on your profile page. I thought it would be shorter. I read all of Bills summary thread and he is up to the MK1.

I guess if you could tell me the conceptual changes you made to the MK1 that increased it stepwise, I would not need to repeat your steps. (unless to replicate)

Did you ever go higher than the original 7 turns on each side of the toroid? I think many of yours the number of jt turns went down as you tuned them. Is that so?

And did you always make the pickup coils in the first up then down way?

Did the pickups ever cross over each other? If they did, did it hurt or help?

I remember something like always have the ends at the place where the jt ends are. Or something like that? This would mean that many pickups would cross over each other.

Any other principles you can think of?

thanks a lot,

jeanna

@IST

Quote from: innovation_station on March 17, 2009, 11:16:08 PM
the mk8 is all done

here is a pic of it
ist

Thank you for that pic. You just answered a couple of those questions!

thank you

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 17, 2009, 11:22:28 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 17, 2009, 10:24:39 PM
One the iron wire did you check only with a meter ? iron is more resistive but still a conductor , and yes it hardly show anything out , put a led on it to get a quick answer , but that said , the circuit could also show almost anything in , think about that one .

Mark

Keep the good work

I checked it, it was .001 volts ac, and .001 volts rectified dc. In any event, I got it to work by running current through it to the base. ..then I tested one of the bifilar's output and still nothing. Seems a frivolous endeavor at this point.

Iron is just being to stubborn for me. I'm getting better results with just a mass of wires - I wonder if something like a rubber band ball configuration might work better? .. ::)

*edit: The steel used in the needles are high carbon maybe? I'm not entirely sure what the deal is with the iron/steel i'm using - the fact that I don't know it's exact properties is probably enough of a reason to stop using them

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 17, 2009, 11:30:51 PM

if looking at the homopolar generator, eddy current is all about amps and very low voltage.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 17, 2009, 11:31:15 PM

@jeanna

The mk1 2x 67 volts on 24 turns , 8 jt turns, to many turns to get tuning done and lowers the turn ratio 2n3904 1k

mk2 4x80 to 120 volts 22 turns 22 awg, tuning resistor , 4 jt turns helps get the voltage up 2n3904

mk8 16x 85 to 140 volts , 27 turns 30 awg 8 wire twisted into one , tuning resistor , 4 jt turns helps get the voltage up 2n2222

The 2n2222 gives a better out put , i am not sure if its connected properly , the base is the same , i usually test both with the trimpot.

But first know your toroid . then get a good design.

If it need 20 jt turns to work good then to get the same voltage out you need 20 turns pickup coil, but 4 turns on the jt side and 20 you 5 time more.

But there is as much power in the pickup coil then the 2 jt coil , i know the amps are low but it still 1.5 volts in 2 coils so the power factor is 3 volt , the toroid and freq will do the rest .

Its about 100 volts for 30 inch of copper wire , 2n2222 are better , and the trimpot will get you in freq for the toroid.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 17, 2009, 11:36:23 PM

@everyone,

I also want to add that while we may not be taking many amps from the battery we are getting the same effect from the spike.

It is my understanding (and I am no EE) that the height of the "sine" wave curve is what defines the amps of the energy. The spike gives us the effect of higher than actual amperage.

Now, this may just be a confusion on my part with the words amplitude and amperes, but I think... they are shown as the same part of the curve. If not PLEASE someone correct me.

thank you,

jeanna

@MK1
thank you for that summary.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 17, 2009, 11:43:06 PM

@jeanna

Also the mk1 hv , you need high voltage diode for that one , 15 foot of 30 gauge on each side. but you really need to know your toroid before doing this, it a good job.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 18, 2009, 12:11:39 AM

@jeanna
amplitude is the difference between the lowest value and the highest value of what you are measuring.
amperes is a measure of the amount of electric charge passing a point per unit time.

ex: 1 A = 1 coulomb / 1 second.

the peek value of a signal wave/pulse alone is not enough to tell you the energy quantity you have.
you can think of the voltage as the pressure in a hose and the current as water flow.

in the jt transfo case, the spikes come from the pressure.

ex: you would not want to put your hand in front of a 3600 PSI pressure washer.
suprisingly, the quantity of water(current) flowing out is not that big.
but look the work those machine can do at that pressure.

W = I * V
I is the current
V is the voltage
W is the power in watt

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 18, 2009, 12:15:05 AM

@mk1,
I never used any diode in the joule thief except when I used the bridge for checking the output voltage.
Is this what you mean?

or do you use a diode to keep things going in DC?
(I can't imagine why you would switch to dc after achieving ac, but I don't understand some of these points at all.)

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 18, 2009, 12:22:35 AM

the reason i switch it to dc... is because the AC FREQ is tooooooo HIGH ...

rectify it and dump in a cap bleed off cap to charge batteries .... or WHATEVER U WANT .... ;)

this solves the high freq ac thing .... to a point ...

if we used iron... i bet we can get 60 hz ac out of it ;) lol

almost done the MK HV! quite a few turns to it ...

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 18, 2009, 12:23:18 AM

Quote from: jeanna on March 18, 2009, 12:15:05 AM
I never used any diode in the joule thief except when I used the bridge for checking the output voltage.
Is this what you mean?
jeanna

yes
the voltage you can get can go higher then the reverse voltage limit of the diode you might use.
if thisoccure they will blow up.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 18, 2009, 12:25:02 AM

@jeanna

The diode are mostly needed for running other electronics most work on dc, but in the case of led it doesn't really mater ,
i also use them to check voltage and comparing to ac , it give ma a idea of the wave form , since i don't have a scope.

I guess so far i am just finding ways to get juice out , but not finding uses for it.

So what are your goals .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 18, 2009, 12:34:47 AM

Quote from: TheNOP on March 18, 2009, 12:11:39 AM

in the jt transfo case, the spikes come from the pressure.

Thanks NOP
I will show you an example of one of my favorite sites. Barry's coil gun java applet. In this example the volts are 100v and on the graph the amps are shown as the wave height.
In ac the electron charge goes first one way then another way. This is why I made the connection to the back emf caused by the collapse that produces the spike.

I guess I don't think of the jt as a pure transformer. I think of it as an inverter/transformer. And when does the amps get separated from the volts when the thing is operating as both simultaneously. ?

Oh, I am talking about the stuff that produces work off the secondary which does not take a greater draw from the battery than the draw of the transistor alone.

While I think it is possible to rig this jt up to be an ordinary electronics circuit, there are also many configurations which do not fit into that regular square box, if you know what I mean. lighting 30 leds from one single turn of the secondary using 1.2v is one example.

I am trying to see if it is possible to expand the E=IR etc formula to see how this observation we are making can exist. Just musings, really.

thank you for your explanation,
here is barrys waveshot:

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 18, 2009, 12:41:43 AM

Can someone explain what the notation 50WVDC max means?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 18, 2009, 12:42:27 AM

@MK1
As far as my goals are concerned...
I want to push this to see how far it can go.

My life MO is always to know how things work. (ergo my little attempt at explanation, which is not necessary for many folks, but is very necessary for me.) ;)

Lots to go on tonight.
thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on March 18, 2009, 02:54:51 AM

@all
I'm back home again at long last, nice to be home.
Wife lookin better, they moved her to the maturnity because of extream lack of beds in the usual ward, boy have I got a story of mismanagement here to tell, another time, it will keep.

DIODEs, I did a little snooping around about diode specifications, the penny dropped the other day, some people here carn't figure out why thei projects stoped working, it's the specifications the divices are rated at.

1N4004 can handle up to 600 volts, at this voltage, current it can handle is reduced, so if your JT puts out say 1kv or higher, then kiss your diode goodbye.

Yep might be time to use signal diodes or switching diodes, but Hv types.

How come I misse this small item? because my DMM wont display a voltage that high, I just thought my JT wasn't working, when it was over 1KV out, trap to be aware of.lol

I'm about 12 pages back, soo Im here but studying along also.

@Bill,
I found a "Forum Downloader" a free one via google, got to set it up and see how it performs.

@Gadgetmll,
I visited your web site, and saw the CT movies link, very good.

Theres a new utube downloader out, seems to work nice, I will give the details shortly.
****** EDIT http://www.flvsoft.com/download_flv/

Now I had betta unpack the charriot

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: rensseak on March 18, 2009, 03:07:03 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 17, 2009, 07:27:27 PM
You have a toroid made of a twisted pair. If it weren't a toroid... if it were just a twisted pair.

@jadaro2600

oh, i didnt try it, but i think there will nothing happen.

@jeanna

> By primary jt lights, I mean is it a stack of leds in parallel to each other hooked up between the C and E of the transistor? <

yes they are in parallel and between C and E. for the amp draw i was reading 0.34 mA direkt after rectifying no load. My transitor is a BD139 an no resistor. this morning the light is off.

there is only two twisted wire with that is build the core and the turns around the like what you have done just with more turns.

Norbert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: rensseak on March 18, 2009, 03:23:09 AM

Quote from: jeanna on March 17, 2009, 08:45:50 PM
OK renseak,

I just made 30 turns around this all copper ring. I made it as described in the video and after finishing 5 times around using 24gauge tele wire continued to make 30 turns around that core. Then I twisted it beginning of one to end of the other wire and set it up like a jt.

The light is fair. It is bright. but not as bright as the 2 lights working off a secondary that I took the battery from.

And the amp draw is 29.5mA
The light should be much brighter for that draw.

I cannot get another light to light in parallel to this one either. It puts out the first one and takes a minute or so to light that first one again.

I am wondering if I have hurt the breadboard or something. I cannot get the result you have. Darn.

jeanna

like what i said my wire is from a LAN cable. each wire there is still multi stranded.

the light is not as bright as you can reach it with a ferrite core.

Norbert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 18, 2009, 04:30:09 AM

Quote from: electricme on March 18, 2009, 02:54:51 AM

How come I misse this small item? because my DMM wont display a voltage that high, I just thought my JT wasn't working, when it was over 1KV out, trap to be aware of.lol

Well, I mused about the voltage issue a while back.

My solution is / was to put a few like-propertied capacitors in series to divide the voltage down for reading across one of them. If they're all of the same type, then the division should be evenly spread across the components.

This doesn't solve the diode problem, the fact that these diodes can handle higher forward voltages then reverse voltages makes them a shaky deal. ...also, the properties change as they heat up - of course, most of you / us know this already.

@rensseak,

These work fine as a twisted pair, it has to be a tight twist though - not so sure about larger wire. This type of setup is only good for minimal voltage gains. Having a comparison of data is useful for building an object model. It looks like you may have gotten a reading that's rather remarkable.

@any / all
Measuring the current must be done by inserting the ammeter into the circuit. ..just put it inline upfront. I don't want to insult though - I had to be told this - I was getting odd readings. Sometimes inserting the ammeter can cause the circuit to behave differently.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on March 18, 2009, 08:35:51 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 18, 2009, 12:41:43 AM
Can someone explain what the notation 50WVDC max means?

50 working volts DC. normal operating voltage

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 18, 2009, 11:25:39 AM

welcome back MR MAGS..

hope all is well with you ..

2 sample cores are due to arrive today ;D

yes they are BIG ONES ...

5.5" ill take a pic .... i hear they got the addy wrong ... lol ;)

i just cant waite to whip em up ;D 8)

AND A BIG WARM WELCOME TO EVERYONE NEW .... yes im a little slow on all the DUE WELCOMES... but it is a big job learning ... and it has been a crazy ride...

im getting there tho ... :)

jim ... bring it on ..

cant waite to see the good old cart ;)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 18, 2009, 11:33:15 AM

Quote from: jeanna on March 18, 2009, 12:42:27 AM
@MK1
As far as my goals are concerned...
I want to push this to see how far it can go.

My life MO is always to know how things work. (ergo my little attempt at explanation, which is not necessary for many folks, but is very necessary for me.) ;)

Lots to go on tonight.
thanks,

jeanna

i also know this feeling ;)

things may go well beond our current comprehention ... :)

ist!

a device of such importance .... and so simple in operation DESERVES THE MOST DETAILED EXPLANANTIONS.... :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 18, 2009, 12:34:11 PM

@ jadaro2600

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 18, 2009, 04:30:09 AM
This doesn't solve the diode problem,

The voltage across the diode when it is forward biased (turned on) is only about 0.7 volts. The only problem possible when forward biased is too many amps. But almost all diodes will handle 1 amp pulses. The problem cones when the diodes are reverse biased. The reverse breakdown voltage can be increased by putting diodes in series. But putting diodes in series will also increase the forward voltage required to turn them on. The 1N4007 will block reverse voltages up to 1000 volts. To handle larger reverse voltages just put several diodes in series. Two 1N4007 in series will handle 2000 volts of reverse bias and have forward drop of about 1.4 volts (it will take 1.4 volts to get current to flow through the two diodes in series).

I do not think diodes are the problem. Transistors can not handle large collector - emitter voltages. This is specified as the Vceo voltage. Exceeding this voltage can destroy the transistor. The Joule thief generates high voltage pulses at the collector, this is most likely source of problems.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 18, 2009, 01:35:36 PM

finished winding the MK HV!

turned out ok this is wound on the same cores as all other mk coils i have made ... same amount of jt primary turns 5 turns ..

i have not ran it yet but i will mount it today .. and compleat it and well lets light some CFL'S....... ;) or charge some self timing caps ....

you see i have this awsome hv cascade built .... just not BRAVE .....TO FIRE IT UP ...... :) this is where the DANGER RESIDES!!!! HVDC CAPS ....

when you discharge through a gap .... and can varry the distance of the gap ...

does this effect conserved power !?!?!?!? :) lol

ist ;D

now this leads to a cap spark gap young effect ELECTRIC motor idea im working on in my mind ... hv but .... well few can handle simple things .. so why go too wild with it yet ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: weri812 on March 18, 2009, 02:49:59 PM

Hello All

nice work going on.

@jadaro2600
edited wer

50 WV DC means that is the maxuming working voltage that you can use with that device without burning it up. you all ways want to use less voltage or large WV [ working volts] to not burn up your device. This really applies to capacitors real nasty when they explode. In some cases you have to look at max amps this also can be a mess crash and burn.

God Bless All
wer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 18, 2009, 03:48:37 PM

Quote from: jeanna on March 18, 2009, 12:34:47 AM
I will show you an example of one of my favorite sites. Barry's coil gun java applet. In this example the volts are 100v and on the graph the amps are shown as the wave height.
In ac the electron charge goes first one way then another way. This is why I made the connection to the back emf caused by the collapse that produces the spike.

oops.
spikes, not spark.
sorry about that.

bemf is caused by the colapse of a mag field.
and if i interpret Lenz's law correctly, it oppose the colapse.
so it try to keep the current going in same direction, rising the volts trying to do that.
velocity of the collape is what i think give the volts boost.
i might be wrong tho.

yes, what you call spike are known as peek
E=IR = I(R*R)
the I and E are true rms values unless peek is stated.
Ep is not the true power.
it is a maximum power value reached for a short period of time, not a value that is constant.

you are right when thinking it is probably a peek current that light the jt leds
even if the rms approximation values we measure at the output of our diode bridge is less then what the manufacturer state for their leds.
the frequency of these peek current is what give us the impression that the leds are always on and is also playing a role in the brightness of the leds.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 18, 2009, 04:25:46 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 18, 2009, 12:41:43 AM
Can someone explain what the notation 50WVDC max means?

50 Watts Volts DC perhap ?
usually there are no words abbreviated to a single character in a part number, only units type.
but it really depends in what context this was taken from.

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 18, 2009, 04:30:09 AM
@any / all
Measuring the current must be done by inserting the ammeter into the circuit. ..just put it inline upfront. I don't want to insult though - I had to be told this - I was getting odd readings. Sometimes inserting the ammeter can cause the circuit to behave differently.

I = V / R ohms law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohm's_law
with this you can get the amps used in a circuit.
put a 1 ~ 10 ohms resistor in place of where you would normally hook your ampmeter.
measure the real value of your resistance first.
read the voltage drop at the resistor then calculate.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on March 18, 2009, 05:07:11 PM

WVDC MEANS WORKING VOLTAGE D.C.

I am pretty sure that the LED lights due to the voltage spike on the JT.
As in all electrical circuits, when power is initially applied to the circuit there is a voltage spike. To prove this, look at a light bulb or vacuum tube filament and see what happens when you first apply power. You may also notice this surge when you turn on your TV or Stereo.

The reason the jt lights the LED is that you are applying power on and off very fast so that you get multiple spikes or surges in the circuit. It is the voltage that is lighting the LED's not the current. The same applies to the fugi circuits. The higher the voltage to the tube, the brighter the light.

I feel Jeanna is on the right path when she mentioned about looking for the highest output voltage with the lowest battery current drain.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 18, 2009, 05:22:14 PM

Quote from: MrMag on March 18, 2009, 05:07:11 PM
WVDC MEANS WORKING VOLTAGE D.C.

I am pretty sure that the LED lights due to the voltage spike on the JT.
As in all electrical circuits, when power is initially applied to the circuit there is a voltage spike. To prove this, look at a light bulb or vacuum tube filament and see what happens when you first apply power. You may also notice this surge when you turn on your TV or Stereo.

The reason the jt lights the LED is that you are applying power on and off very fast so that you get multiple spikes or surges in the circuit. It is the voltage that is lighting the LED's not the current. The same applies to the fugi circuits. The higher the voltage to the tube, the brighter the light.

I feel Jeanna is on the right path when she mentioned about looking for the highest output voltage with the lowest battery current drain.

dont think it matters lol ;)

i want to use power and a lot of it ;)

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 18, 2009, 05:41:46 PM

@xee2,

What I meant by forward voltage wasn't the drop in voltage accrued during use - it's the amount of voltage that the diode can handle while 'switched on'.

And putting two diodes in series to gain twice the reverse voltage handling doesn't make sense to me ( But i'm no electrical engineer ) - not at least to gain reverse voltage tolerance. It does, but it doesn't... only considering voltage drops across multiple components in a circuit? true / false?

@any,

Diodes have a power dissipation - I assume this is shorthand for how much voltage and current they can handle in their operation before destroying themselves?

Would the ACTUAL number with regard to this 'power dissipation' be obscured by the fact the conditions in the diode are in fluctuation? In one direction there is current and voltage flowing, but in the other, there is nothing? ...trying to make sense of the 'power dissipation' is becoming interesting...

On the Vishay 1n4148 switching diode, the power dissipation is 500mW - meaning it could handle a wide range of voltage / ampere circumstances. The max forward current on this same model is 500ma ... and I suppose that at that current it could only sustain 1 volt - which is equal to the voltage drop?!

@all,

Lets say, for instance, that we have two diodes of equal properties on the same line, in parallel so that current can flow through the line in either direction - wouldn't the reverse voltage on one be irrelevant - the diode essentially being protected from any breakdowns since the current and voltage would be flowing through the other diode?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 18, 2009, 06:57:10 PM

@ jadaro2600

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 18, 2009, 05:41:46 PM
What I meant by forward voltage wasn't the drop in voltage accrued during use - it's the amount of voltage that the diode can handle while 'switched on'.

That is the reverse breakdown voltage. Putting two reverse biased diodes in series is just like putting two capacitors in series. In fact, a reverse biased diode is equivalent to a small series capacitor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 18, 2009, 08:12:03 PM

Quote from: MrMag on March 18, 2009, 05:07:11 PM
I am pretty sure that the LED lights due to the voltage spike on the JT.

if it was only due to the voltage, some peoples in here would not have problems lightning their troublesome leds.

Quote from: MrMag on March 18, 2009, 05:07:11 PM
As in all electrical circuits, when power is initially applied to the circuit there is a voltage spike. To prove this, look at a light bulb or vacuum tube filament and see what happens when you first apply power. You may also notice this surge when you turn on your TV or Stereo.

the name of this is "inrush current" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inrush_current

QuoteWhen a transformer is first energized a transient current up to 10 to 50 times larger than the rated transformer current can flow for several cycles. Toroid transformers can have up to 80 times larger inrush, because the remanent magnetism is nearly as high as the saturation magnetism at the "knee" of the hysteresis loop.

Quote from: MrMag on March 18, 2009, 05:07:11 PM
The same applies to the fugi circuits.

not exactly.
my kodak camera flashes rely on an oscilator, a step up transformer and an auto step up transformer to trigger the flash tube.
the oscilator is not a "blocking" type in my flash unit and the fuji one don't look like using one either.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on March 18, 2009, 09:03:18 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on March 18, 2009, 05:22:14 PM
dont think it matters lol ;)

i want to use power and a lot of it ;)

ist

Please explain what you mean about you don't think it matters. What doesn't matter??

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: AbbaRue on March 18, 2009, 09:07:06 PM

@All
Before trying any new core materials try running them across a magnet a few times and then see if they remain magnetized.
If they remain magnetized then you don't want to use them as a core material.
If they don't attract a magnet at all then using them is probably no different then using an air core.

I went down to the beach on the weekend, still ice on the shoreline here in Canada
but some Canadians were out in shorts and short sleeve shirts after all it was 52 degrees out. ;D
Anyway, I brought a magnet with me wrapped in a plastic bag, and I moved it through the sand to collect some magnetite.
I collected about a pound of it in the short time I was there.
I used a hard drive magnet which may be strong but it doesn't have a lot of surface area.
The next time I go I plan on bringing one of my 4 inch diameter ring magnets.
They sell them at hardware stores mounted in a steel base with a 1/4 inch hole in it, to mount a coat hanger hook.
I hope to collect a lot more magnetite next time.

You can mix the magnetite powder with fiberglass resin and hardener and pour it into a mold to make any shape core you want.
They call this a "Dirt Cheap" ;D way to make transformer cores.
Any patch of sand should yield some magnetite if you run a magnet over it.
They call it "Riverbed Magnetite" and experts say it makes the best core material of all natural sources.
Google the subject to find out how much resin to magnetite to mix.
You don't need a lot of resin and it is quite cheap, a liter of it should make dozens of cores if not hundreds.
For a mold you could use wax and carve the shape in it, then remelt it to make a new mold if it gets damaged.
I'm not sure if the resin will get hot enough to melt the wax while curing though. Never tried it.
Or you could use some type of plaster or clay material. Drywall mud is quite cheap.
I would build a large mold with many cores in it so I only need to mix the resin and magnetite once.

Addendum: Here is a link on this forum on making magnetite cores. What an awsome forum we have here!
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3318.380

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 18, 2009, 09:28:20 PM

@Mk1

I made a new JT with more wire and a tighter grip around the toroid. I still can not get a pickup wire to out put anything. The JT itself will light 25 LEDS from one AA battery. So I know its doing something. I am just not sure why I can not get the pick up coil to work. My next step is to buy some better parts that others have had success with.

@ALL

Can someone please recommend a few places online to buy some good toroid's and good wire to wind them? I really want to get the pick up coil to work. I want to buy the best wire I can and the best toroids that I can find. I know that the pickup coil should work and I have hooked it up 45 different ways with no success. All of my JT circuits have worked even the first time I attempted it. Its just the pickup coils that I can not replicate.

Thank you all so much!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 18, 2009, 09:33:47 PM

Quote from: altrez on March 18, 2009, 09:28:20 PM

Can someone please recommend a few places online to buy some good toroid's and good wire to wind them? I really want to get the pick up coil to work. I want to buy the best wire I can and the best toroids that I can find. I know that the pickup coil should work and I have hooked it up 45 different ways with no success. All of my JT circuits have worked even the first time I attempted it. Its just the pickup coils that I can not replicate.

Thank you all so much!!!

Try looking for toroids in the power supply of an old computer - if you don't have one - a burnt out CFL contains one in the base.

There are many places online to buy these things. If you find a place that will sell you both, then it's probably a good place.

@Pirate
Are you LED's connected in series or in parallel? ..in your videos that is?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 18, 2009, 09:52:43 PM

Quote from: altrez on March 18, 2009, 09:28:20 PM

Can someone please recommend a few places online to buy some good toroid's and good wire to wind them? I really want to get the pick up coil to work. I want to buy the best wire I can and the best toroids that I can find. I know that the pickup coil should work and I have hooked it up 45 different ways with no success. All of my JT circuits have worked even the first time I attempted it. Its just the pickup coils that I can not replicate.

Thank you all so much!!!

Hi Altrez
Can you show us a picture?

Electronic goldmine has a nice choice of toroids. Others have also recommended other places, but they were more expensive - but not expensive, so you can look back a couple of weeks from now if you want.
I tried 5 types from the goldmine. I like the one that is called a filter really a lot. Also the medium toroid that sells 5/$1 or is it $2? Good size and good toroids.
Just don't get the one called high permeability. That one taught me that we want low permeability for the joule thief to work.
I am using telephone extension cord wire. It is about 22 or 24 gauge, comes 5 or 6 strands of different colors per extension cable. It works quite well and is relatively easy to strip.

My pickup or secondary coils are usually mag wire, but this needs to be well sanded at the ends. I had pretty good results using the telephone wire for secondaries too. The trouble with it is the plastic is so thick it is hard to get many turns.
I did a bit of research in january and found that the thickness of the secondary wire did NOT effect the ability of the secondary to function. (see page 168 and 171 for some of those results. So, I like using either the red 30 gauge or the green 26 gauge mag wire from radio shack.

@AbbaRue,
Thanks for this idea for getting magnetite for making our toroids. Are you on the east or west side of the continent? I may try some when the weather warms up some. (you must be in BC since the temperature was so 'warm'.) Are we looking for a non conducting glue or would sodium silicate or silicon gel work?

OK everyone,
I did some back reading today and I am about to make a MK2 or 4 using the toroid called filter. It is what I made the MK1 out of btw. (That part will be consistent.)

more when that is done.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 18, 2009, 10:00:26 PM

@AbbaRue
thanks for the core making technique.
i will probably try it eventually.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 18, 2009, 11:08:31 PM

Quote from: AbbaRue on March 18, 2009, 09:07:06 PM
@All
Before trying any new core materials try running them across a magnet a few times and then see if they remain magnetized.
If they remain magnetized then you don't want to use them as a core material.
If they don't attract a magnet at all then using them is probably no different then using an air core.

I went down to the beach on the weekend, still ice on the shoreline here in Canada
but some Canadians were out in shorts and short sleeve shirts after all it was 52 degrees out. ;D
Anyway, I brought a magnet with me wrapped in a plastic bag, and I moved it through the sand to collect some magnetite.
I collected about a pound of it in the short time I was there.
I used a hard drive magnet which may be strong but it doesn't have a lot of surface area.
The next time I go I plan on bringing one of my 4 inch diameter ring magnets.
They sell them at hardware stores mounted in a steel base with a 1/4 inch hole in it, to mount a coat hanger hook.
I hope to collect a lot more magnetite next time.

You can mix the magnetite powder with fiberglass resin and hardener and pour it into a mold to make any shape core you want.
They call this a "Dirt Cheap" ;D way to make transformer cores.
Any patch of sand should yield some magnetite if you run a magnet over it.
They call it "Riverbed Magnetite" and experts say it makes the best core material of all natural sources.
Google the subject to find out how much resin to magnetite to mix.
You don't need a lot of resin and it is quite cheap, a liter of it should make dozens of cores if not hundreds.
For a mold you could use wax and carve the shape in it, then remelt it to make a new mold if it gets damaged.
I'm not sure if the resin will get hot enough to melt the wax while curing though. Never tried it.
Or you could use some type of plaster or clay material. Drywall mud is quite cheap.
I would build a large mold with many cores in it so I only need to mix the resin and magnetite once.

Addendum: Here is a link on this forum on making magnetite cores. What an awsome forum we have here!
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3318.380

;D ;D ;D

i think this is the most valuable info in this whole topic ....

thank you sir...!!

i have NANO MAGNITTE... ;)

ist

but it was not cheep and was not purchised for this style unit ..... :)

CREATIVITY HOLDS NO LIMITS ;D ;)

check this out ;D ;D ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCfrmYZ2zko

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 19, 2009, 12:06:04 AM

@jeanna,

I'm having no luck getting a third wire to pickup properly on one of my custom duos ...on top of this I've only been able to get so much out of them when it comes to voltage and salvation of current.

SO, I'm going to switch up and try some coil tricks to see if I can't get the spikes to work a little better.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 19, 2009, 12:57:42 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 19, 2009, 12:06:04 AM
@jeanna,

I'm having no luck getting a third wire to pickup properly on one of my custom duos ...on top of this I've only been able to get so much out of them when it comes to voltage and salvation of current.

SO, I'm going to switch up and try some coil tricks to see if I can't get the spikes to work a little better.

OK jadaro and Koen and Altraz and anybody else having trouble,
My first question is have you made a joule thief in the standard way?

If not, please try doing that. I will go through it now:

Using some tele wire wind 2 wires close together making 11 turns of them. This gives you 22 turns in all.

Then, because you used 2 different color wires, and you can tell them apart, connect the beginning of one to the end of the other. Just twist them with their exposed copper ends for now.

Put this twisted-together end into the red+ rail of the breadboard.

Then put one other end into the line that is at the end of the base resistor,
then the other end at the collector of the transistor.

Use a 2N2222 or 2N3904 transistor
1k ohm resistor at the transistor base.

Make sure this base resistor is right on the base and that the other end of the resistor can go to the toroid. I notice there are some circuits around that use this resistor at the other side of the toroid. Do not do that for now, OK?

====
EDIT: add a jumper to the black rail from the emitter of the transistor.
I made a better description. If there is still time I will rewrite it here. I just made the changes that make it better, though. I will be back to find that better description later.
====

After you check it all and the battery connection, add a led between the C and E of the transistor. If it does not light turn it around.

Only now can you play with the secondary.
But, first, remove the led that is in the regular jt spot.

I found that 5 turns guaranteed a light from the secondary. (I mean even on a bad toroid)

I hope this helps.
---

I also have been having trouble with one of my breadboards. The foil must be torn away too much. Also, one of my leds doesn't want to light much and it can make the parallel array turn off. This never happened in January. Also, my expensive double ultrabright is looking yellowish. I am not getting a bright white color no matter what. I have no idea why. My components have not been connected to anything for 4 weeks.

@jadaro, I know you are using a different circuit design. There are too many interesting variables going on here to make more than one change at a time makes the whole process too difficult. And besides IT may be the trouble.

@all,
OK you just heard about the trouble I am having with components and breadboard.

I just made a start on a MK2 or 3.

Before I started, I wanted to doublecheck the toroids that I have made before just to have a beginning set of numbers.
I chose one of the nice early ones. It is too small for a lot of secondary, but it is made just like the one I just described and has 20 turns secondary made with red 30 gauge mag wire from RS.

I was checking for amps so the volts and brightness are a little down too. I used a 9,5 ohm resistor at the red rail of the battery.
Here is what it showed.

.27v, 28mA no light anywhere, just the transistor is on.
.26v 27mA led in the jt place
.16v 16.8mA 2 lights from secondary of 20 turns.

"MKHybrid"=made like standard jt but with MK1 numbers of turns on same 'filter' toroid
.20v 21mA no led
.20v 21mA led in jt place
.10v 10.5mA superbright looking yellow. Regular leds no light???

Another filter toroid wound with 6 bifilar and 8 turns secondary
.23v 24mA no light
.23v 24mA led in the jt place
.19v 20mA led on secondary

The new one I am testing
MK2 4 turns each at 180 degrees
.25v 26mA no light
.25v led in jt place
.21v 22mA led on a quickly wound 8 turn secondary.

Don't you think it is interesting that on ALL of these, the volts and amp draw go down when I use the secondary to light the led's?
--

@MK I remember reading your reason to separate the bifilar into 2 parts and separate them by 180 degrees. So far, I have not had better results by doing that and I am wondering if you will describe what happened that made you decide to split the bifilar turns?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: AbbaRue on March 19, 2009, 01:00:55 AM

@jeanna
I live in Sarnia, ON. which is at the bottom tip of Lake Huron I'm about 60 Miles from Detroit, MI.
We had a nice mild week here, Wed. we reach 65 F.

I don't know if regular wood glue or silicon would work. Some people have used epoxy glue but it can be costly.
The best resin I know of is fiberglass resin. You can buy it at any auto supply shop, it's used for auto body repair.
You mix the resin with the magnetite really well and then you add the hardener stir it some more and pour it into the mold.
The mixture will be a thick paste so you should get some latex gloves so you can push the mix into the mold with your fingers.
Something like playdough, or window plaster.
It cures in a few hours, and then you have your toroidal core.
The ratio is 70% magnetite to 30% resin.
Nice thing is you can experiment with odd shaped cores to see what results you get.
Maybe even some type of 3D core like in your illustrations.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 19, 2009, 01:34:11 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 18, 2009, 09:33:47 PM
Try looking for toroids in the power supply of an old computer - if you don't have one - a burnt out CFL contains one in the base.

There are many places online to buy these things. If you find a place that will sell you both, then it's probably a good place.

@Pirate
Are you LED's connected in series or in parallel? ..in your videos that is?

Jadaro2600:

That would depend on which video you are talking about. (I have 20 posted on youtube now) If you are talking about the 400 lead experiment, on the video they were in series. But, if you look way way back here somewhere, I had done the same experiment with them in parallel and posted photos. (This was prior to my getting the $49.00 HD videocam) In the ones using the supercaps only to light the leds, I believe they were in parallel. I hope this helps.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 19, 2009, 02:03:43 AM

Thanks for the details, AbbaRue.

I am south of seattle. I will see if there is magnetite on the beach hereabouts when the weather turns.I bought some last fall to use with the crystal battery . I remember it was not too expensive, but enough to make a big toroid might be. Anyway it will be a good excuse to go to the beach even if all I get is more jaspar.

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 19, 2009, 05:33:51 AM

@Pirate88179, Thankyou - I'll have to find a decent HD camera, :P

@jeanna,

Thankyou, I've made several normal joule thief circuits with regular ferrite toroids. And now...Perhaps I'll make something different yet again. I'm waiting on parts to come in the mail, but they're not going to help me with this new setup I've got. I may be able to make something from this new one with regard to your three axis dream ... if I place these inductors just right in the setup below. I was thinking about a spherical trisection with three inductors.

@All, A new one - Helmholtz Style, this particular setup is void of any capacitors, I just used a pair of like inductors. When taking an unloaded voltage reading off an inserted diode rectified capacitor between the collector and ground yielded a 85.4 volt reading! I used a 1k resistor on that one. I don't know why this works without a capacitor - probably a natural resonance. This is using < 20ma, just depends on what LED I'm using.

I can move the inductors around and note their effective positions. Fun for playing with coil positions.

This setup still functions when the inductors are at 90 degrees to one another - but not when one is move past the other side by side.

I might have to order some new inductors.

*edits, voltage reading was wrong. additional info was added as well.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 19, 2009, 06:12:31 AM

Another deviation on the whole Helmholtz inductors idea... this time lighting up a tester neon. Which was lit, but is now flashing. Voltage reading across the capacitor is 111.0v :)

It's interesting these operate like they do. The soldering on these was done alike on both of them, so, the red wire on one corresponds to the red wire on the other. ( i.e. they're wired opposing in the circuit just like any standard joule thief ).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 19, 2009, 07:38:53 AM

@ jadaro2600

Well done. Are the coil forms plastic or ferrite? Did you wind the coils yourself or buy them? At 111 volts you need to be concerned about the transistor collector voltage. I suggest you always keep the neon in the circuit to limit the collector voltage. Your transistor apparently is able to handle 111 volts but may not take much more.

EDIT: to get higher output voltages you will probably need to add another coil with more windings coupled to the collector coil. That way the collector voltage does not have to be as high as the output voltage.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 19, 2009, 08:04:01 AM

Well, this is just what's accumulating if I put a diode on the collector to a capacitor. The actual voltage when there's an LED on it is different.

The inductors are some sort of ferrite. They're attracted by a magnet. They came from a DSL filter. ( an older one ) ..there are four of them in each filter.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 19, 2009, 08:36:58 AM

@ jadaro2600

Each spike on the collector coil will add charge to the capacitor until its voltage reaches to peak spike voltage. With the neon across the capacitor, when the capacitor voltage gets to about 100 volts the neon turns on. If the net current coming into the capacitor is less than the neon current, then the neon will discharge the capacitor until the voltage drops to under 90 volts and the neon turns off and the process repeats. If the current coming into the capacitor is greater than the neon current, then the capacitor keeps increasing in voltage until it reaches the peal spike voltage.

The spike voltage will be limited to the capacitor voltage while the capacitor is charging.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 19, 2009, 08:38:41 AM

I fried the switching diode in the picture. I'm now using a different transistor and diode all together. The setup is now putting out 170 volts - I still can't get it to light up this CFL though, I think the thing need just a little bit more voltage.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 19, 2009, 08:48:45 AM

@ jadaro2600

The transistor spec you need to be concerned about is the max Vceo. If you can find data sheets on internet for your transistors you can select the one with the highest Vceo and use it.

I reccommend 1N4007 diodes.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 19, 2009, 09:07:09 AM

I'm getting a few 1800 volt capacitors soon. There are a few transistors also. I have the worst luck with these components.

Everything is a mess! I need to order more diodes and more relevant transistors. This inductor thing is turning out to be funny - with the neon connected, I can move the inductors apart and watch the neon flash, with them closer together the neon stays lit.

The odd thing is that the inductors will work when put 90 degrees to one another.

In the diagram, the colored paths... it's either one or the other.

*edit: added new circuit diagram

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 19, 2009, 09:13:45 AM

@ jadaro2600

You might want to try adding another coil coupled to the collector coil like this in order to get a higher output voltage. I think it takes about 300 volts to turn on a fluorescent tube (and I think that voltage drops once it is on). But I do not have a scope so I can not measure this.

EDIT: If properly connected the voltages generated by the two coils should add (so you should be able to inrease your output voltage). How much will depend on coupling between coils.

EDIT 2: corrected circuit drawing.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 19, 2009, 09:15:28 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 19, 2009, 05:33:51 AM

@jeanna,

Thankyou, I've made several normal joule thief circuits with regular ferrite toroids. And now...Perhaps I'll make something different yet again. I'm waiting on parts to come in the mail, but they're not going to help me with this new setup I've got. I may be able to make something from this new one with regard to your three axis dream ... if I place these inductors just right in the setup below. I was thinking about a spherical trisection with three inductors.

edits, voltage reading was wrong. additional info was added as well.

I got up early to edit an omission from my post from last night. So, before I go back for an early morning re-awakening... ;) I will reply to this.

I am not sure what you are saying about your regular jt circuit. You complained yesterday that you are not getting anything from the secondary.
It is from that plain jtc that we are all getting the extra energy off the secondary at little to no additional cost from the battery. If you have made several of these, are you able to get the energy off the secondary of them?

thanks for your innovations,

back to sleep for a while,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 19, 2009, 09:46:52 AM

Quote from: jeanna on March 19, 2009, 09:15:28 AM
I got up early to edit an omission from my post from last night. So, before I go back for an early morning re-awakening... ;) I will reply to this.

I am not sure what you are saying about your regular jt circuit. You complained yesterday that you are not getting anything from the secondary.
It is from that plain jtc that we are all getting the extra energy off the secondary at little to no additional cost from the battery. If you have made several of these, are you able to get the energy off the secondary of them?

I haven't been able to get anything off of my pickup coils that I've added to my custom copper toroids - not anything significant. But, from the regular jtc's I get plenty - as well as from this most recent thingy I've made, it seems as If I'm getting a lot from that too. I'll have to add another coil to it to see what happens.

@xee2,

Thankyou, I was thinking of doing something along those lines - the circuit diagram help. I added one to a recent post a page back. All of my components have changed from the pictures. I don't think that I have a transistor that can handle anything over 75 volts.

@all, Since the juice is flowing through the led's or what have you, wouldn't it be safe to say that ther's not to much danger to the transistor? ...wouldn't the extra components just sink the current and voltage? ...this is not in reference to setups with pickup coils.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dog812 on March 19, 2009, 10:08:54 AM

I have been following this thread for awhile.. i finally went out and bought the parts needed to make a regular JT tonight..

I will it give it a go tonight after work.

I was wondering..Which wire is better to use? i have all different sizes.. 22 ga - 30 ga.

And i have been trying to figure out what you all mean by secondary? I can t find the original deffinition of it in here.
Is it like a whole other coil you add to the circuit?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 19, 2009, 10:17:25 AM

@ jadaro2600

If you put an LED between the collector and emitter it will limit the spike voltage so you will not be able to get a high output voltage. A neon between collector and emitter will limit spike voltage to about 100.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 19, 2009, 10:23:02 AM

@ dog812

Wire diameter is not critical. Basic secondary circuit is as follows.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 19, 2009, 10:33:19 AM

@ dog812

In this case the 27 turn coil would be used for the secondary. See jeanna posts for more info.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 19, 2009, 11:47:38 AM

i took a pic of the magnitte i have

i have 300 g

i will be takeing pictures today of the rings i have compleated in the last few days ... also i will be testing them today

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: rensseak on March 19, 2009, 02:20:28 PM

@ jadaro2600

here is a prof. i rewound my "just coper coil" and was using only the twisted wire and it lights also all LEDs.

regards
Norbert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 19, 2009, 02:49:42 PM

@renseak,
This is interesting that you can do this.
Please tell us the amps draw from that array.

Also, is there anything else that is different from the regular jt circuit in that? If so please supply the information.

@xee2,
I approve of your suggestions for the terminology and thank you for making it so clear. Now, if you go back (sorry) and add the joule thief light in its standard position between C and E and name it so, this will be perfect. Do you agree?

Also thanks for such a good drawing of the split jt wires.

@all,
Isn't it a worthy idea to always include the components (including number of lights and their arrangement) and amp draw/volts produced if known on anything you are posting as result? This is such a long thread with so many contributors, it really helps me to have this information all together in one post.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: rensseak on March 19, 2009, 03:33:26 PM

Quote from: jeanna on March 19, 2009, 02:49:42 PM
@renseak,
This is interesting that you can do this.
Please tell us the amps draw from that array.

Also, is there anything else that is different from the regular jt circuit in that? If so please supply the information.

jeanna

@jeanna

i connected my dmm to the plus side of the bat. in series between the rest of the circuit and it reads 63 mA. rectified it reads 9.7 V at 0.41 mA, so there is no big change in measuring and also in the circuit it self except that i rewound the coil and using the twisted wire as it is like you can see in the photo.

Norbert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 19, 2009, 04:01:09 PM

@ jeanna

Drawing with some LEDs added.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on March 19, 2009, 04:13:37 PM

Posted on the Coral Castle thread...food for thought possibly.

"
Hey Pese,

I recall that Ed was said to be heard singing to the coral stones...something I feel is an important component of his work.

Over on the 'joule thief' thread they make reference to the coil making an audible sound which they tuned into silence.

I'm wondering if the frequency of that sound could be tuned to accomplish what Ed did by looping the secondary coil around an heavy object ?

Regards... "

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 19, 2009, 04:49:57 PM

@xee2,
VERY NICE. thank you.
lets make a note of the page for newcomers so we can help them and so this is our standard terminology. It is what we have been using, and now with the drawing to ID the names, things should get easier.

@All,
Is there a table somewhere that describes the wavelength relating it to the frequency? If I find one I will post it.
EDIT: I found what I was looking for. an applet from msu. It shows that all the wire lengths in a range that we can and are using correspond to radio waves and maybe a bit microwave. If it is below 1/3M it is a microwave, if I remember. anyway... done.

@MK1, are your secondary lengths arbitrary? or are they relating to the wavelength you want?
You seem to tune them to the toroid, but not the frequency desired.

I need to wait for my precision pots. RS didn't have them or I'd have bought one for use today. My best toroids have at least 6 + 6 turns for the primary... so far, anyway.

@Cap-z-ro, That sounds good. ;)

thank you all,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 19, 2009, 05:18:08 PM

@jeanna

i tune the numbers of jt coil to get the best output , but also use the trimpot the find the freq needed for the toroid , i drive the transistor the the needed freq.Every time a make adjustment i also check the trimpot , with the meter one the pickup coil , so i get a better idea of what is going on. I spilt the coil bot many reasons , first the have a better voltage over the whole toroid , because it doesn't rotate , also create a bigger opposing field , isolating the pole create the ac , also make more room for pickup coil (in a prime location on a free toroid), i also try to keep the jt turns low , because it then takes less pickup turns to get higher voltage.

Not all toroid work the same , they all do but when it comes to pickup coil ferrite is a good choice because it works good at a greater freq range , but does not the the real high voltage , powder iron need the right freq and jt turns i bit harder to get working , but even some are better then others , learns about the toroid , buy always having a pickup coil
on and connected to meter and tuning the trimpot finding the sweet spot .

So far i get the same voltage and usage of all my pickup coil .even when i got 16 .

I have blown many led , with this , then they still work but not in all situation like new ones .

The 30 inch is about 22-27 turns on a 1 inch toroid , some toroid give me max 48 volt from 30 inch, and others up to 140 volts , but 48 v x 16 that is still quite good . That said i usually get 48 volt from the toroid in power sup the bigger ones .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 19, 2009, 06:33:19 PM

@jeanna, I'll be sure to include more information about what I'm posting - unfortunately, I'm using parts which are salvaged from defunct devices, so Identifying them can sometimes be a pain.

@rensseak, Yea, that's what I was talking about with the linear transformer. :) This is how I test some setups.

@xee2, The diode is helping protect from backfires - it's routing to the capacitor ...in which case:

@all, My initial concern is that we have huge spikes in flux, and these translate to voltages beyond the capabilities of most transistors' V_ceo rating. Then, allow me to ask again,

Since the juice is flowing through the led's or what have you, wouldn't it be safe to say that there's not to much danger to the transistor when we run a diode off the collector and use this path for the boosted voltage? ...wouldn't the extra components just sink the current and voltage? ...this is not in reference to setups with pickup coils.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 19, 2009, 06:38:35 PM

Quote from: Cap-Z-ro on March 19, 2009, 04:13:37 PM
Over on the 'joule thief' thread they make reference to the coil making an audible sound which they tuned into silence.

I'm wondering if the frequency of that sound could be tuned to accomplish what Ed did by looping the secondary coil around an heavy object ?

are you saying Ed moved the coral blocs by electrical or sound means ?

if yes, know that i am able to lift a 10 tonnes slab as many feet in the air as you want.
alone, with no machineries, chains blocs(like you can see him using in some of the photos of him working), electricity or sounds.
me alone, well..., with the help of physic's laws.
i can even make concrete blocs roll easily, as if they were a wheel if i want.

the required tools to do that are very simple.
shovel, buckets, sand, a lever(in some cases) and rail road wood blocs are about all that i would need.
well..., if you can find ways to work with the center of gravity of an object, knowing Newton's laws of motion will help greatly.

i am not saying it can't be done with electricity or sound
it is possible and have been scientifically proven.
i am just pointing out that this can be done by other mean then those two.
but look at the energy it currently take to do that and the size of the objects experimented on...

and if you want my opinion, the way i would do it, was used to build the pyramids.

@all
please peoples, don't write meta physical stuff here.
there are specialised forums where this kind of talk would be more appropriate.

even if the meta talk help develop the mind and, some times, can give new ideas, it almost always end up in useless posts in here, or worst, in flaming wars.

every peoples have their own believes.
please respect them.
as much as you like to be respected.

Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 19, 2009, 06:47:45 PM

I realize that jeanna may be right when it comes to posting clear specs on what the circuits are and contain.

It's probably equally important to add comments to the images we post, and as lazy as I am, after reorienting myself in here - I realize that it's probably just as important to create parts lists in the circuit diagrams as well as in the images 'comments' property ( This can usually be added when saving an image ).

Doing this means going back to the component labeling schemes they use in electronics courses - R₁, R₂, T₁, D₁...etc.

It may in fact become easier for someone to specifically reference a drawing or diagram without much fuss.

- - - - - - -

Also, Jesus posted a large sheet of circuit icons, ..does anyone have a more detailed sheet of drawing icons, I need a good template library. ( I'm sticking with Dia for now. )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on March 19, 2009, 06:54:15 PM

" are you saying Ed moved the coral blocs by electrical or sound means ?

if yes, know that i am able to lift a 10 tonnes slab as many feet in the air as you want.
alone, with no machineries, chains blocs(like you can see him using in some of the photos of him working), electricity or sounds. "

No TheNOP...I am only speculating on the technique Ed may have used to move 30 ton blocks 50 miles on a 3/4 ton truck...which should have collapsed under the weight, under normal conditions.

I suspect his singing to the stones and possibly a joule thief type apparatus may have been used, and 'tuned' by Ed by pitching his voice so.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 19, 2009, 07:01:05 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 19, 2009, 06:33:19 PM
@jeanna, I'll be sure to include more information about what I'm posting - unfortunately, I'm using parts which are salvaged from defunct devices, so Identifying them can sometimes be a pain.

Of course. And then that could be the very thing causing the result, so it is worth at least a general description.
And, I know not all transistors say who they are etc.
Thanks for the effort.
We will all win from it.

EDIT we posted simultaneously, jadaro. thanks again.

@MK1,
Thanks for going into so much detail. You helped me. I am sure you helped others too.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 19, 2009, 07:23:30 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 19, 2009, 06:33:19 PM
@all, My initial concern is that we have huge spikes in flux, and these translate to voltages beyond the capabilities of most transistors' V_ceo rating. Then, allow me to ask again,

Since the juice is flowing through the led's or what have you, wouldn't it be safe to say that there's not to much danger to the transistor when we run a diode off the collector and use this path for the boosted voltage? ...wouldn't the extra components just sink the current and voltage? ...this is not in reference to setups with pickup coils.

V_ceo is not the only think to be wary about, V_be too.
transient surge voltage is often stated in transistor data sheets but not always.
the higher the transient surge the higher the transistor life time risk to be diminish.

i don't think we can use diode to protect the transistor in the way you and i would like.
it will simply get in the way, no boost.
in faq, only half protection can be achive, but at the expense of half the power.

i am sure of this, but don't take my words for it, test it yourself.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 19, 2009, 07:49:53 PM

I have just made another JT and the basic circuit works just fine. I can light 10 LEDS from an old AA battery. I still can not for whatever reason get the pickup coil to work, even with 25 turns of 22 AWG mag wire. That took what felt like forever to wrap lol. I am not giving up, I plan on ordering some better toroids to see what happens.

What puzzles me is that everyone else has such great success with the pickup coil and I have yet to get a flicker from any pickup coil I have added. I have tested with 3 different types of wire and even with 6 different JT builds 1 turn up to 25 on the secondary no luck.

Thanks for all the help!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 19, 2009, 08:13:18 PM

You may try twisting your two primary wires together, winding while spreading the turns evenly around the toroid. Then place your pickup coils over this if you have to. You may have a high permeability toroid.

What we need to use is low permeability - as someone pointed out a few pages back.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 19, 2009, 08:33:15 PM

jadaro2600

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 19, 2009, 06:33:19 PM
My initial concern is that we have huge spikes in flux, and these translate to voltages beyond the capabilities of most transistors' V_ceo rating. Then, allow me to ask again,

Since the juice is flowing through the led's or what have you, wouldn't it be safe to say that there's not to much danger to the transistor when we run a diode off the collector and use this path for the boosted voltage? ...wouldn't the extra components just sink the current and voltage? ...this is not in reference to setups with pickup coils.

Yes. Putting an LED from the collector to the emitter will limit the spike to a few volts. This is fine for lighting LEDs located between collector and emitter. But the small spike voltage will not produce much voltage in a secondary coil. Using a neon will limit the spike to about 100 volts. This will also limit voltage produced in secondary but not by very much. Using a single diode is not good since the current will flow from battery through it instead of going through transistor because it only takes 0.7 volts for current to flow through it. Whereas, current will not flow through LED unless voltage is over 2.5 volts which only happens when there is a spike. However, three or more diodes in series could be used since then it would take over two volts for current to flow through them and battery voltage is only 1.5 volts. So current would only flow through them when there was a spike.

Using a secondary will allow you to get output voltages exceeding the Vceo of the transistor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dog812 on March 19, 2009, 08:37:17 PM

Hey thanks for the images about coils.. I see that it is a second coil on the same ferrite..

But what does the secondary coil do? Why add a second coil?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 19, 2009, 08:50:00 PM

Quote from: dog812 on March 19, 2009, 08:37:17 PM
Hey thanks for the images about coils.. I see that it is a second coil on the same ferrite..

But what does the secondary coil do? Why add a second coil?

Well now dog812, that is the sweetest story around, these days.

Once you remove the led from the jt position, and instead touch it with the secondary leads, it will light as bright, sometimes brighter than in it's jt place. Then, you can put as many as you own in parallel with it and they will all light up really bright. The amazing thing is the amp draw will stay the same or believe this or not, go down.

There is no explanation for this behavior, but we have been seeing it over and over. Once you get how to do it right, you can just push it.

MK1 found that you can add another secondary and you can light AGAIN more lights on the same amount of original energy. So far, he says he has 16 secondaries.

So just play with it. Many of us are going in slightly different directions. For instance, I want to get these lights lit from .7v on an earth battery. I also want to piggy back one secondary to be the voltage source to another one...
MK1 has been pushing the output voltage tests to see if he can get household (I assume) voltage.
Ist and MK1 want to charge caps and use them to deliver the energy as dc.

We are all thinking our own ways and adding to each other's knowledge base by sharing what we find.

So, eat more than one and share what you find! ;)

We all benefit.

thank you

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dog812 on March 19, 2009, 09:00:31 PM

Ahh i see.. thanks jeanna

So for my application of lighting 21 RGB LED's from a single AA rechargeable.. I would probably want to use a secondary..
How many twists on the primary coil and how many on the secondary do you think i should try. .. in your opinion?
I am using 2n2222 's if that changes anything.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 19, 2009, 09:00:31 PM

Quote from: dog812 on March 19, 2009, 08:37:17 PM
Hey thanks for the images about coils.. I see that it is a second coil on the same ferrite..

the 2 smaller coils are the jt normal coils
one to the base the other to the collector

the third, the bigger one, is the "pickup coil".
view it as the secondary of a transformer where the 2 jt coils are both the primary coils.

Quote from: dog812 on March 19, 2009, 08:37:17 PM
But what does the secondary coil do?

as stated above it is the secondary of a transformer.

Quote from: dog812 on March 19, 2009, 08:37:17 PM
Why add a second coil?

for energy conversion.
to get a step up or step down transformer or as an isolation transformer.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 19, 2009, 09:08:40 PM

Quote from: dog812 on March 19, 2009, 09:00:31 PM
Ahh i see.. thanks jeanna

So for my application of lighting 21 RGB LED's from a single AA rechargeable.. I would probably want to use a secondary..
How many twists on the primary coil and how many on the secondary do you think i should try. .. in your opinion?
I am using 2n2222 's if that changes anything.

I am not sure what rgb leds are, but the answer should be the same.

I think most of us think the toroid itself is what will give you the best results when good.
Any ferrite toroid will give you the results you want.

Just start winding. If you can afford it (toroids are cheaper than the shipping) keep winding new ones and try them out on a breadboard with the same transistor and resistor etc. So, then, if you change one of those components, you can compare the toroids. Make sense?

Pretty soon you will be well informed about what is happening and you will be adding to the discoveries.

Please share what you find.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dog812 on March 19, 2009, 09:10:42 PM

Also one thing i dont get on the diagram.. is the secondary only hooked up to the LED? not to the rest of the circuit at all? Collecting the energy from just wrapping around the coil?

Sorry i am new..

By RGB LED , i mean those ones that change colors.. from red to green to blue.. to whatever mix..

So about making the coill.... i have a local electronics store that carries all this stuff.. different size torrids etc..

I am still un certain of how many wraps i should i use? i see some say fold the wire in 2 and do 11 turns.. some say 20 turns..
And how many on the secondary?

What should i try first?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 19, 2009, 09:16:20 PM

Quote from: dog812 on March 19, 2009, 09:10:42 PM
Also one thing i dont get on the diagram.. is the secondary only hooked up to the LED? not to the rest of the circuit at all? Collecting the energy from just wrapping around the coil

YUP. Makes me smile every time. I like to call it a free ride. It isn't free because without the battery turning the transistor on and off there would be no lights, but it only costs you what that transistor takes. :)

QuoteBy RGB LED , i mean those ones that change colors.. from red to green to blue.. to whatever mix..

I think those are different colors with different directions. Maybe you will see a different color light when you have it going from the secondary. As long as they were not meant for 12 volt input and include resistors, you should be OK.

Let us know. Do you have a camera?
pics are fun to see.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 19, 2009, 09:27:54 PM

I have a question. I just took a toroid out of my old power supply. Should I place the pickup coil on a bare spot on the new toroid or completely cover the toroid first with the main JT bifilar coil and then wrap the secondary / pickup coil on top of that?

Thanks!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 19, 2009, 09:32:21 PM

Quote from: altrez on March 19, 2009, 07:49:53 PM
I have just made another JT and the basic circuit works just fine. I can light 10 LEDS from an old AA battery. I still can not for whatever reason get the pickup coil to work, even with 25 turns of 22 AWG mag wire. That took what felt like forever to wrap lol. I am not giving up, I plan on ordering some better toroids to see what happens.

What puzzles me is that everyone else has such great success with the pickup coil and I have yet to get a flicker from any pickup coil I have added. I have tested with 3 different types of wire and even with 6 different JT builds 1 turn up to 25 on the secondary no luck.

Thanks for all the help!

So Altraz,
Did the latest page with the flurry of Q n A help?

My first question that I have asked you and others before is, did you remove all those leds from the regular jt place when you try to get the secondary to light a light? You will not be able to have both going at the same time. (well, it is possible, but rare.so do not try for it.)

It is cool to light so many lights from one battery, but if you are using the regular jt position for the lights, you are just letting them suck the amps out of the battery.

Please let me know the answer to this question and we can go from there.

Oh and also I did not get confirmation from you that you had properly sanded down that varnish. It is very thick on the 22awg mag wire and clear so it is really hard to see if it is still getting in the way of connection.

jeanna

BTW, I found that with 11 turns of 2 wires in the regular jt as evilmadscientist directions, ONLY ONE turn on the secondary was enough to light a led. IST replicated this. We both shared pics so others could see. So, yes, the EE's love to talk about the rules. (and I very much appreciate them for being here and explaining the rules, cuz, I sure don't know, ) but the normal rules do not necessarily apply. One turn secondary transformed from 22 turns primary should not be able to turn on any led.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 19, 2009, 09:34:58 PM

Quote from: altrez on March 19, 2009, 09:27:54 PM
I have a question. I just took a toroid out of my old power supply. Should I place the pickup coil on a bare spot on the new toroid or completely cover the toroid first with the main JT bifilar coil and then wrap the secondary / pickup coil on top of that?

Thanks!

It is best if the secondary is touching the toroid, so squeeze it in between the bifilar primary turns where you can.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 19, 2009, 09:42:21 PM

@dog812 and altrez
once you have a working jt try this.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg162806#msg162806

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 19, 2009, 10:05:40 PM

@jeanna

I have took every step that has been posted. I tested the mag wire with a DMM for continuity to make sure it was making a perfect connection. I also have now tried 3 different types of toroids no luck. I posted some pics about 15 pages back. I will take new pic's on Friday of all my JT and post them perhaps you can find something I have missed.

Thank you ALL so much for the help.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 19, 2009, 10:42:07 PM

Great work everyone! I really appreciate how everyone is helping the new folks here...this is great and what it is all about.

Easiest way to get the insulation off of the magwire I have found is to hold in in a small flame for a few seconds until you see clean, bare metal.

Latest video of my Bedini replication using 2 lead acid batteries. (a bit off-topic I know but not for long)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QznwV4SzYho

Take care everyone.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on March 19, 2009, 10:50:41 PM

@all
I have been away doing other things, but are back now, I discovered this little bit, made me shiver, but I think all those in USA should take note of it, it is titled Are You A Terrorist it seems by ones innocent actions, one could be "deemed" to be so, by these blokes anyway.

http://www.prophecynewswatch.com:80/March20/2013.html

Back to reading the posts, I'm at P388, siiiii I got held back a bit saving UTube chemtrails, suppose this makes me one of the above toooo.

Happy JTing all

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 19, 2009, 11:14:36 PM

Just out of curiosity,

Has anyone use both an NPN and a PNP transistor in thier JTC? ...didn't someone try this a while back?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 19, 2009, 11:41:15 PM

@jadaro

I just found a transistor for you high value problem http://www.nteinc.com/specs/2900to2999/pdf/nte2999.pdf

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 19, 2009, 11:54:36 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 19, 2009, 11:14:36 PM
Just out of curiosity,

Has anyone use both an NPN and a PNP transistor in thier JTC? ...didn't someone try this a while back?

yes, relatively early in the tread and resurfaced later.
soory i don't remember at what pages.

here the early attempts
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6942.msg161197#msg161197
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6942.msg161429#msg161429

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 20, 2009, 01:08:40 AM

@Mk1,

The NTE brand is actually carried locally - and the price jumps just that much too, It's like pulling teeth trying to find the right thing in their store though.

I found a few that might do the trick though: 2N5550, the TIP49 or the TIP50. The TIP's are particularly interesting.

Could you please explain the meaning of the terminals?; I've read about mosfets before, but I don't quite understand why I would want to use that over any of these. Is there some benefit to the use of a mosfet over a bjt?

@TheNOP,

Thank you for that, I might try one of those setups later; I do have a few inductors laying around.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 20, 2009, 01:44:23 AM

@All

I am tying to power a jt circuit with toroid and addition coil ( actually the mk4 ) , with a mk1 , first i just connect a 1 turn and it works a led in the regular mk4 spot. since the design of the mk4 with 2 transistor pnp and npn it only works one way , but if i reverse the pickup coil power and turn the led it also works . The mk4 is a bit strange since you have 2 jt reverse polarity if you power only one side both sides led light.

Mark

Edit , i really don't get how i can power one unit with the other on one turns , 4 turns , also works , and no rectification ,

so i could have one to the battery and 10 connected to it easy then do it again , and then get some , all that on a single pulse , of what the hell is that signal.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on March 20, 2009, 02:22:25 AM

@all
OK, I just began treating the skin cancers on my left arm with MMS ;D
Dosage 1 drop of MMS to 5 drops activator
I used a long match stick to apply the mix to my cancer spots.

It will take time fto notice any reactions, days to weeks, so all be patient.

Now it's back to reading posts 8)

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 20, 2009, 07:06:37 AM

@electricme

I hope everything is ok with your skin cancer! I will pray for you!

@ALL

Here is a picture of my new JT it will power 32 leds from my old AA battery. However i can not get a pickup coil to work. The mag wire in the picture is what I am using as my pickup coil. I have tried 1-30 turns no luck. Any ideas?

I do not have an LED attached to the transistor I tested the circuit by touching the leads from my led bank to the transistor and it lit them very bright.

Thank you all!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 20, 2009, 07:59:33 AM

@altrez,

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 19, 2009, 08:13:18 PM
You may try twisting your two primary wires together, winding while spreading the turns evenly around the toroid. Then place your pickup coils over this if you have to. You may have a high permeability toroid.

What we need to use is low permeability - as someone pointed out a few pages back.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 20, 2009, 08:02:55 AM

@ altrez

Magnet wire is covered with clear insulation. I assume you have removed the insulation where you are making contact with the wire. If not, that is most likely your problem.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on March 20, 2009, 08:05:56 AM

Posted by Hoptoad on another thread...may be applicable to the jt.

" Perhaps this is a little off topic, apologies in advance, but it relates to efficiency.

In an article written by Nikola Tesla entitled "The problem of increasing human energy", first published in June 1900 by Century Illustrated Magazine, on pages 196 and 197, there are a few paragraphs devoted to the value (or not) of iron in electrical current generation and transmission.
The following quote is word for word, but the bold highlighting is my edit.

Quote:

"Unless we should make a radical departure in the character of the electric currents employed, iron will be indispensable.Yet the advantages it offers are only apparent. So long as we use feeble magnetic forces it is by far superior to any other material; but if we find ways of producing great magnetic forces, then better results will be attainable without it.

In fact I have already produced electric transformers in which no iron is employed, and which are capable of performing ten times as much work per pound of weight as those with iron. This result is attained by using electric currents of a very high rate of vibration, produced in a novel way, instead of the ordinary currents now employed in the industries."

End Quote:

With rare earth supermagnets such as NIB's now becoming cheap and commonly available, Teslas comments above, should be given greater attention when contemplating the design of more efficient motors and generators.

Ironically, Neodymium Iron-Boron magnets (NIB's) do contain some iron. But Tesla wasn't commenting about the material characteristics of the source of a strong magnetic field, he was referring to the materials of the inductive coils/cores and housing assembly used for generating electric current from the strong magnetic field and also transmitting it to a load.

Particular attention should be given to Tesla's comment on the use of electric currents with a high rate of vibration (frequency) for use with his ironless transformer.

Regarding motors, the most efficient motor /generator developed for the "civilian" world thus far was developed by the CSIRO and ultimately produced in 1996-7 for use in the Australian Solar Car Challenge entry vehicle called the "Aurora".

Note the ironless specs of the motor in the pdf link below.

http://www.totallyamped.net/adams/AuroraSolarCarMotor1997.pdf

Cheers ... KneeDeep.... and who among us, would argue with Tesla? "

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on March 20, 2009, 11:25:00 AM

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 20, 2009, 12:09:15 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on March 20, 2009, 11:25:00 AM
@all
Just for your Information . RGB leds will not work on a Jt normal or secondary as it stands . . The reason why is they RGB leds Have a MicroChip in them and Malfunction on a Jt . . I have The cure ! I have Played with them and have ran them fine with a modification I have .Same goes for any Chipped Led be it Blinking or rainbow RGB's

Regards
GADGET

Care to share?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dog812 on March 20, 2009, 01:47:49 PM

Yes would you please share with me, as that is my main reason for making this ... RGB hula hoops are main seller.
http://ledhulahoop.com

Quote from: gadgetmall on March 20, 2009, 11:25:00 AM
@all
Just for your Information . RGB leds will not work on a Jt normal or secondary as it stands . . The reason why is they RGB leds Have a MicroChip in them and Malfunction on a Jt . . I have The cure ! I have Played with them and have ran them fine with a modification I have .Same goes for any Chipped Led be it Blinking or rainbow RGB's

Regards
GADGET

Also... I think i may have bought the wrong transistor.. will a PN2222 Work? haha.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 20, 2009, 03:05:49 PM

Hi dog812,
(what a funny name!)

I don't know about the transistor, but if it is working in the bjt it is probably not the problem.

Maybe as gadget suggests you should put aside the rgb's for this testing period.

I am seeing a couple of things in your pic that have caused me problems.

1- the bifilar part that you show is an advanced style not a basic style. Make one with the bifilat turns going all around so you end where you began. That is the basic.
2- the secondary turns are in the only place that could be a dead spot.
I asked MK1 about this because he found a dead spot in his. But again, that is a LATER design, not the basic joule thief.

3- I found that it is much better when I wrap the secondary first up then down as in all of MK1's designs.

I like MK1's designs, and yet at the moment, I still have a better result with the hybrid.

The Hybrid is made with 2 secondaries each one going up then down as in the MK1, but the bifilar basic jt part of the hybrid is 11 turns bifilar just like the very basic.

Tuning comes later. (some of them do better with fewer than 11 turns, but then there is the problem of placement etc.)

So, make 1 with 11 turns bifilar just like the evilmadscientist one, (prove the circuit with a led then remove it) , add secondary turns around the side -NOT opposite the end/beginning of the basic part.
Check for traces of varnish on your mag wire and touch the wire to the plain led.

Let me/us know how this beginning step does.

(My 29leds were all lit from one like this. Later I uploaded a pic of 30 using the MK1, but those basic ones really do work well.)

thank you,

jeanna

(did the dog eat a hula hoop too? ;D )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 20, 2009, 05:24:40 PM

A good magnetic core material must have high permeability.
this increase the coefficient of coupling.
but be carefull, the permeability is generally a function of the frequency

that mean: find at what frequency your circuit will run then choose the proper core for it.
you can cheat by adding more turns, but it is not the proper way to get the most out of a transformer.

if your jt can't reach a high enough frequency, that is needed for your core to work at it maximum efficiency, you will see blind spot(s) on it.
because the coefficient of coupling will be low (less iron in it, more resistive).

a way to kinda solve this, is like jeanna sayed.
is to spread the coils all around the core.
you can have only 8 turns it does not really matter, just spread the turns all around the core

"Soft" iron can create a field as much as 50,000 times more intense than with an air core.
but because iron is a relatively good conductor, it cannot be used in bulk form(solid form) with a rapidly changing field(frequency), as intense eddy currents will appear due to the magnetic field, resulting in huge losses (this is used in induction heating).

that mean that the more a core material is a good conductor, the more intense eddy currents will be.
is not copper more conductive ? ;)
copper act as an air core witch is best at higher frequencies and at low frequencies it not good because there is almost no coupling at all.
and the higher the frequency the more intense eddy currents will be...

lamination and powdered techniques help greatly in reducing eddy currents lost, so, there are no reason not to use iron or other high iron material as a core.

be aware of the hysteresis curve of the meterial you want to use tho.
as this is what limit the highest frequency you can use your core at.

hysteresis is the time it take for a material to change it magnetic poles(north to south/south to north)
if the frequency is higher then it take for a material to change it magnetic poles, you will loose efficiency by alots.

it is worth noting that the current frequencies the jt work at(from various reports of peoples having scope) is well inside iron's hysteresis curve.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 20, 2009, 05:41:27 PM

@theNop

What to you think of aluminum core. All good info there , but a bit technical for none ee .
Keep the good work , cant wait to see what you are up to.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 20, 2009, 06:40:57 PM

FUNNY you mention this......

i tryed to post a pic earlyer on today

yea i leave it there.... lol

sure ill get to posting it ... lol

my cores came today ... they are GREAY 5.5" ;D

the pic i was gonna post ... ALUM ;)

ill try it now

lol

more than meets the !

ist!

but first this video!!!! ;) ;D 8)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWyTxCsIXE4&feature=related

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dog812 on March 20, 2009, 06:46:52 PM

Well thanks to everyone who has helped.. I finally built my first working Joule Thief. Was easier than i thought.. I have no volt meter or breadboard.. I am very newb.

I tried winding the secondary coil.. but i get nothing.. I wound it the sme as the first coil. but did 22 turns of 30 ga folded in half then cut and connected the same as the primary .. ? is this correct? or should it just be a single wire wrapped?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 20, 2009, 06:50:59 PM

@Mk1,

I just got a different NTE brand transistor - its the NTE89. Along with a bunch of other things, but I saw this movie 'Knowing' and have gotten sick to my stomach...So, I'll probably not be doing much testing tonight.

http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/nte/NTE89.pdf (http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/nte/NTE89.pdf)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 20, 2009, 07:08:13 PM

a friend passed me this video

thought i should share it!

ist

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3lNZ0u_ghw

fast car!?!?!?

we grow.... ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dog812 on March 20, 2009, 07:26:20 PM

Ok.. I got the secondary finally working.. Just wrapped a single wire about 6 times around..
The LED is not very bright but it is working..
How do i get it brighter? More warps , less?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 20, 2009, 07:38:04 PM

Quote from: dog812 on March 20, 2009, 06:46:52 PM
Well thanks to everyone who has helped.. I finally built my first working Joule Thief. Was easier than i thought.. I have no volt meter or breadboard.. I am very newb.

I tried winding the secondary coil.. but i get nothing.. I wound it the sme as the first coil. but did 22 turns of 30 ga folded in half then cut and connected the same as the primary .. ? is this correct? or should it just be a single wire wrapped?

dog812

First, congrats for the first working jt! It is confusing until you get accustomed to where things go.
So, yeay! good going.

Now,
You have made 2 secondaries .

The secondary is not in any way connected to the regular circuit. So, somewhere else (even in the palm of your hand) touch the sanded or burned ends of one of those mag wires to each side of a led and you will get a light. If not, turn the light around.

If that still doesn't make a light, sand the ends of the mag wire more - I find this more trouble than it seems it should be, but it twists when you sand it or burn it, and whole segments of the varnish go untouched. be persistent. (of course you will)

And, of course, be sure you have only one wire not the ends of 2 different wires. (that is the only trouble with making 2 secondaries as you have done.

Good going.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dog812 on March 20, 2009, 07:50:01 PM

So what do i do to light more LED's without them dimming too much?
More or Less primary turns?
More or less secondary turns?
Something else?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 20, 2009, 07:56:41 PM

@Dog812

Good work there , since most toroid are different then mine i can't say for sure , but 2 things one try try try , second the resistor in the circuit can be replaced by a potentiometer to get those light brighter , also have tried connecting the led the other way around. There is no need for meter if you try different things more led in series will show you a bit about how much voltage you got , once you light one brightly then you can add more in parallel.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 20, 2009, 07:58:20 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 20, 2009, 05:41:27 PM
What to you think of aluminum core.

from a mag field point of view, aluminum and copper behave the same.
strong opposition to magnetic induction(Lenz's law).

aluminum is a bit less conductive then copper but more then iron and does not concentrate mag field.

i don't have much more, mag or electrical, datas on alu, a side those above.
only un-verified, by me, ears say, witch i will probably look at later.

Quote from: Mk1 on March 20, 2009, 05:41:27 PM
All good info there , but a bit technical for none ee .

thanks , but i am not an electronic engineer.
if one is blindly poking around, how can he be sure he found something new or be sure he did'nt missed something ?
peoples should seek more infos on the stuff they work with.
once know, it is easier to build something with it and know why it does or does'nt work.

Quote from: Mk1 on March 20, 2009, 05:41:27 PM
cant wait to see what you are up to.

humm..., me too.
what i am up too...
i am in reading mode, tech stuff, as i am missing components to experiment with.
finished a few cores to prepare tho.
and tommorrow i will finish my big toroid, after passing at my sis house to weld the wires.
its for tesla transformer experimenting.

got a few test planned.
a few play with eddy currents and the test i promised you to do.
i will post my results objectively when done.

also some small projects:
hearth batteries.
a few solar cfl garden lamps.
and i got a few electroluminescent panel i wish to make something of.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 20, 2009, 08:11:32 PM

Quote from: dog812 on March 20, 2009, 07:50:01 PM
So what do i do to light more LED's without them dimming too much?
More or Less primary turns?
More or less secondary turns?
Something else?

Yes, well that is what all this talk about tuning is all about.

When I lit the array of 30 leds, I started with one turn. I never needed more than 53.. That is what the MK1 had on it, but if the lights are in series, they need more, in some cases, anyway.
I did a whole study of how many turns for how many lights on the secondary. Then I picked up a different toroid because it was bigger and I could put more turns on it and... it was completely different!

I have been doing a thorough study of one type of ferrite toroid today starting exactly as I told you this morning.
I made a secondary using a 40 inch long piece of wire. But at first it only had 5 turns on it. I made measurements then added 5 more turns etc. I will make a full report later on when it is finished.

I am now in the process of removing the primary turns and measuring it that way.

There is a place where the amps use goes really low and the lights glow really bright. I ran out of secondary wire before the reverse began to happen.

Soon I will know the best number of turns for the primary.

MK1 has another way which is close. He starts with the primary.

Then when you are done you have the good information on all the toroids like the one you are testing. Others will be different.

The NOP just said hi permeability is good. I am not sure at all if that is true.

My high permeability toroid which cost me a lot more than the others performed miserably. Because of his post, I may recheck it, but for now, I think that came out of a text but not experience with a working jt.

So, lots of words to say... just try it!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 20, 2009, 08:11:39 PM

@nop

Thanks again. On the alu and copper issue there is heat dispersion factor i know both are good , alu is a good rf shield i don't know for copper it works but what is best , also copper to alu it doesn't connect electrically it need special connector
humm its like electricity doesn't travel in the same state in both. Its said that alu is 2 time better conductor then copper that is per weight.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dog812 on March 20, 2009, 08:25:24 PM

Thanks for the info everyone..
I see there is a lot of different readings from different items used..
I thought there might be a rule of thumb or something about more or less turns.. but i see its trial and error..

I took apart my secondary and made it 22 turns .. it still doesnt light the second LED in paralell very well.. so maybe ill try a new torrid and use less primary turns..
Thanks again.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 20, 2009, 08:28:58 PM

@all

Just an update.. I have fallowed everyone's excellent advice and tried 10 different configurations tonight. Still no luck with the pickup coil. Once I can get it to work I will post a step by step of what it took. So far I have used 4 different toroids 3 different types of wire. Tested everything at least 30 times. And have had one of my friends give it a try as well and he could not get it to work either.

All of my JT circuits always work perfectly and the toroid from the last picture I posted is lighting a grand total of 35 LEDS!@!@!@! It will not accept a pickup coil however. No matter how I space the bifilar turns or where I wrap the pickup coil.

My best guess is that I need to order a toroid that works with a pickup coil and that others have had success in adding a pickup coil.

Thank's!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dog812 on March 20, 2009, 08:30:27 PM

P.S. Someone mentioned a "potentiometer"
Is ther any certain specs on this thing i shold be looking for.. or
this is my local electronic store i shop at.. if you can tell which item to go get from here. that would be great..
http://www.rpelectronics.com/ (http://www.rpelectronics.com/)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 20, 2009, 08:41:33 PM

;D

notice the alum i posted 2 machined aum rings ... alum wire ....

will not be used as showen ;)

lol

dont go thinking it is a jt on an alum ring .... lol

i WILL CUT THE RING ... lol i will then insert a relay COIL ...

LOL

ist!

same goes with the wire ... why?!?!?!?!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 20, 2009, 08:51:52 PM

Quote from: jeanna on March 20, 2009, 08:11:32 PM
The NOP just said hi permeability is good. I am not sure at all if that is true.

My high permeability toroid which cost me a lot more than the others performed miserably. Because of his post, I may recheck it, but for now, I think that came out of a text but not experience with a working jt.

:)

high permeability, yes, but permeability is in relation to the frequency.
you must choose the core material with a frequencies range in mind.

high permeability + highest frequency capable toroid are not good for a jt.
but most toroid can be somewhat fixed to work in a jt circuit by spreading the coils all around the core and/or adding more turns on all coils.

what i wrote on cores was from both, text books, and from experience.
not only with the jt but with other transformers too.

i do recommend that peoples look those infos up by themself.
and most important, please, correct me when i am wrong.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 20, 2009, 08:57:27 PM

An interesting thing just occurred to me: Has anyone thought of using a broken washer for their 'toroid'. I think they're called lock washers ( not the star shaped one, the ones with the break in the form )

By placing the windings of the primaries ( + to collector ( red or black ) and + { resisted } to base ) nearest to the break in the washer - the primaries are proximal to one another, yet distal through the conduction of the broken washer. Eddy currents are minimized through a broken ring - their path is limited.

Placing the tertiary ( blue ) ( secondary, aka pickup coil ) between these two .. wouldn't this sequester flux voltages?

Here is an image - I'll just have to draw it by hand.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 20, 2009, 09:25:35 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 20, 2009, 08:11:39 PM
Thanks again. On the alu and copper issue there is heat dispersion factor i know both are good , alu is a good rf shield i don't know for copper it works but what is best , also copper to alu it doesn't connect electrically it need special connector
humm its like electricity doesn't travel in the same state in both. Its said that alu is 2 time better conductor then copper that is per weight.

for heat sink copper is a bit better(recall from my physic and electro classes).

for rf i don't know, probably copper is a bit better but any metal should be able to shield rf adequately.
iron is use for most apparatus and shielded cables mostly use alu, but this might be for $$$ reasons

per weight i don't know.
what i know is: that for same current rated wires, you need 2 times the wire size with alu, compaired to copper.
since the resistance is different, both require different wire side connection surface for same current rating.

alu
2.7 g/cm3
28.2 nÎ©Â·m

copper
8.96 g/cm3
16.78 nÎ©Â·m

edit
that would be a bit less then 2 times for the size also a bit less then 2 times by weight
if i calculated correctly...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 20, 2009, 09:32:33 PM

Quote from: altrez on March 20, 2009, 08:28:58 PM
My best guess is that I need to order a toroid that works with a pickup coil and that others have had success in adding a pickup coil.

before doing that, give iron a try, a coat hanger or even a 2~4" nail will do.
build the jt as usual, when it work whind an other coil on top of the 2 others.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 20, 2009, 09:36:52 PM

@TheNOP

Thank you for the advice. I will give that a try and see what happens :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 20, 2009, 09:57:19 PM

00000OOOOOOOoooooo my

lol

so im winding my big cores ...

and i get to thinking lol ... :) how bout .... mk2 style .... hv 1 side low v high current the other lol lol ;D 8) 8)

ist!

:o :o

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 20, 2009, 10:09:36 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on March 20, 2009, 09:57:19 PM
and i get to thinking lol ... :) how bout .... mk2 style .... hv 1 side low v high current the other lol lol ;D 8) 8)

ist!

Cool idea,
Did you try it yet?

@MK1
When you get those high numbers on your rectified voltage, do your lights go dim ever?

I just popped a bunch of ones I made before, (so I don't repeat them) and I see again that some that should have gotten better got worse and I am still surprised.

Do you get reversals in amount of light too?

Also, MK1, when you put together your secondaries in series, did you get a better result than if you had just continued with a single longer secondary?
I am afraid I do not understand the reason for many secondaries connected in series. Could you please explain?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pardon on March 20, 2009, 10:16:11 PM

Hello all please correct me if i am wrong but the transistor used 2n2222 or 2n3904 makes a big difference in length of wire going to the base or collector. in my testing i have found that if the same length wire is not used. the shorter wire has to go to the base on a 3904 and on the 2222 it has to go to the collector.

this may or may not help getting JT's to work the first time

just trying to help and thanks to all for the great information

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 20, 2009, 10:43:18 PM

Quote from: Pardon on March 20, 2009, 10:16:11 PM
Hello all please correct me if i am wrong but the transistor used 2n2222 or 2n3904 makes a big difference in length of wire going to the base or collector. in my testing i have found that if the same length wire is not used. the shorter wire has to go to the base on a 3904 and on the 2222 it has to go to the collector.

this may or may not help getting JT's to work the first time

just trying to help and thanks to all for the great information

2N3904 can only switch one-third the current of the 2N2222 , but otherwise has similar characteristics.

what do you mean by the shorter to the base and longer to the collector ?
i don't see why one would need a shorter wire on the base and the other on the collector.
you have a picture of what you meant ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 20, 2009, 10:55:51 PM

Quote from: Pardon on March 20, 2009, 10:16:11 PM
Hello all please correct me if i am wrong but the transistor used 2n2222 or 2n3904 makes a big difference in length of wire going to the base or collector. in my testing i have found that if the same length wire is not used. the shorter wire has to go to the base on a 3904 and on the 2222 it has to go to the collector.

this may or may not help getting JT's to work the first time

just trying to help and thanks to all for the great information

hello Pardon

From what I have seen the wires can be equil or different ......it doesn't seem to matter that much ......at least not if you are looking for maximum voltage from a secondary

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 20, 2009, 11:01:17 PM

@jeanna no

i did not try it yet i dont think i need to lol ... i has to work ... lol ;)

i did manage to wind up my first pickup coil .. ;D

30 strands 22 ga 12 ' when i finished TWISTING IT i have 8'4"

so 60 ends .. 30 outputs .... 1 wire ;) lol

looks like 15x15 up and back ...

trying 5 turn primaries ... lol as the speck sheet test of the cores ... used 5 turn :D

and i like the out of 5 ;)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 20, 2009, 11:07:06 PM

@jeanna

If you connect them is series you get more voltage , in parallel more current .

If you burn the led they will go out.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 20, 2009, 11:27:17 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on March 20, 2009, 11:01:17 PM

so 60 ends .. 30 outputs .... 1 wire ;) lol

HOW do you tell them apart.??
This is a serious question. With that many ends it must look like stranded wire.

Quotetrying 5 turn primaries ... lol as the speck sheet test of the cores ... used 5 turn :D

and i like the out of 5 ;)

I agree 5T is becoming a favorite of mine. It seems to be a good number for a toroid. More than just a start...

I just had 4 rectified volts from a 5T primary and 4 or 5 T secondary and with a good light too. 3 LEDs on the secondary looking real bright.

@MK1
I didn't mean that.
I mean what is the reason you cut it apart? If you are just going to connect it in series?

I haven't burned out any LEDs from a secondary yet, but I have had them refuse to light when they should have. Maybe this is why? I will check them again.

thank you,

jeanna

my oscilloscope and precision pots didn't get here yet. Darn, I need so much patience to wait til monday.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Thaelin on March 20, 2009, 11:45:39 PM

The photo of the NTE FET has a protection diode in it. This will short the
reverse spike from the coil. Some fets do not have this and would be good
for it as an option.
Just for fun, I have a 5" torrid that I will have to wind a JT on and see what
happens. Think it will be way too much for it to work on.

thaelin

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 20, 2009, 11:50:18 PM

@Thaelin

Welcome , and you may have surprises , thank for the Fet info .

@jeanna

I wanted to test the coils , on the Mk8 , and its easier to wind 27 turns then 216 , its almost a regular wire but a regular wire is not insulated .

Mark

Edit : also by winding it both ways it light the led in both direction , also i use one coil on each side it give me 240 instead , plus i use a second pair to feedback the positive part of the wave it boost the voltage by sending it back in the wire it effects all the coil buy induction , and the feedback timing is perfect. So now the unused coil are also working better. i can get a good voltage form any coil even if i don't have the right leads (not has high but almost), to separate them you color code them first or tell them apart with the meter check the resistance.

more wires to play with. but the mk hv is less troublesome for really high voltage , no connections to make but , not much learned in the process .

On one toroid coil one way check the led , then wind the other way then test again the led now it light in both direction.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 20, 2009, 11:58:13 PM

Quote from: Thaelin on March 20, 2009, 11:45:39 PM
The photo of the NTE FET has a protection diode in it. This will short the
reverse spike from the coil. Some fets do not have this and would be good
for it as an option.
Just for fun, I have a 5" torrid that I will have to wind a JT on and see what
happens. Think it will be way too much for it to work on.

thaelin

lol smak it with a lil more GRUNT LOL

;)

@jeanna ... ;D

i dont worrie bout that ..... lol how hard can it be ... i was thinking a meter ... cont beeper

i have lots of 800v rectifier diodes ... 3amp 8) 2 per output .... wire .. then we will pull from source and free stuff + just free stuff

sounds like lots 0 bang for the buck ... ;)

sure ill list thease on the !STORE TOO

IST!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 21, 2009, 12:20:21 AM

Words of warning and praise... ???

The electronics goldmine Electronic Surprise Box that I got in the mail contained a bunch of stuff - by bunch I mean about 4 pounds of stuff. There were 32 400vdc capacitors and 32 orange neon bulbs as well as a few circuit boards, a water pump, a few inductors, and a few other things I think are piezoelectric / or condenser microphones. It also had a few cigarette lighter plugs w/ fuzes.

I think the neons made it worth it ...I can't tell which lead is the positive on these capacitors though.

I also got a solar cell, and lots of transistors and lots of toroids - I should have much to post in the time to come. Perhaps I'll even try that washer idea that I posted a page back.

Quote from: Pardon on March 20, 2009, 10:16:11 PM
Hello all please correct me if i am wrong but the transistor used 2n2222 or 2n3904 makes a big difference in length of wire going to the base or collector. in my testing i have found that if the same length wire is not used. the shorter wire has to go to the base on a 3904 and on the 2222 it has to go to the collector.

this may or may not help getting JT's to work the first time

just trying to help and thanks to all for the great information

I've noticed similar phenomenon; the 2n2222 works better for me than the 2n3904. I made this observation using equal lengths of wire though with transistors made from the same company.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pardon on March 21, 2009, 01:34:05 AM

Quote from: TheNOP on March 20, 2009, 10:43:18 PM
2N3904 can only switch one-third the current of the 2N2222 , but otherwise has similar characteristics.

what do you mean by the shorter to the base and longer to the collector ?
i don't see why one would need a shorter wire on the base and the other on the collector.
you have a picture of what you meant ?

Sorry but i don't have a pic. i have a coil that has 20 turns going the the Base/trigger and 70 turns going to the Collector/power. what i get with a 10 k ohm base resistor is .64 volts at the base and i get 1.03 volts at the collector. the bat voltage is 1.05 with no connection. the amp draw is .06 ma. that is the only coils of wire on this torrid the trans is a 3904.
with a 2222 trans i have to switch the base and collector wires and the base voltage using the same coil now has a base voltage of .04 and the collector is now 1.04 volts and the led is not as bright with this trans. the amp draw is now .09 ma.

so i am getting a better performace from the 3904. i wanted the highest voltage on the collector before adding a secondary to it

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 21, 2009, 01:50:19 AM

;D 8)

FIRST THIS SONG ... ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q77oJSOSiCs :)

and now my work

ist!

enjoy :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 21, 2009, 07:21:35 AM

@TheNop

I took 3 different nails of 3 different sizes. I made the JT circuit and it works fine I can light all my LEDS with it. However I can not get a pickup coil to work with the nails either. I am not sure why. i have tired to do this so many different ways with so many different types of wires and core's. And I have never had any problems making an extremely powerful JT pushing over 30 LEDS and running very brightly from my AA.

I just cant seem to grasp the concept of the Pickup coil. I have wound my own transformers with no problems at all. And they always work. So its not like this is a new concept to me.

My Steps thus far:

4 diffrent types of toroids.
3 diffrent types of nails.
3 diffrent types of wires
2 diffrent types of transistors.
1-36 turns on priamery JT bifilar coil
1-80 turns on pickup coil.

Not once not even a flicker from the pickup coil. And no voltage on the pickup coil when tested with a diode.

Any ideas?

Thanks!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on March 21, 2009, 09:31:43 AM

Quote from: altrez on March 21, 2009, 07:21:35 AM
@TheNop

I took 3 different nails of 3 different sizes. I made the JT circuit and it works fine I can light all my LEDS with it. However I can not get a pickup coil to work with the nails either. I am not sure why. i have tired to do this so many different ways with so many different types of wires and core's. And I have never had any problems making an extremely powerful JT pushing over 30 LEDS and running very brightly from my AA.

I just cant seem to grasp the concept of the Pickup coil. I have wound my own transformers with no problems at all. And they always work. So its not like this is a new concept to me.

My Steps thus far:

4 diffrent types of toroids.
3 diffrent types of nails.
3 diffrent types of wires
2 diffrent types of transistors.
1-36 turns on priamery JT bifilar coil
1-80 turns on pickup coil.

Not once not even a flicker from the pickup coil. And no voltage on the pickup coil when tested with a diode.

Any ideas?

Thanks!

Remember that for the pick up coil to work you must take out any LEDs you have connected between the ground and the collector.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 21, 2009, 09:44:33 AM

I did take out the led for every test. I only used the led to verify that the JT is working. I then remove it and test the pick up coil. After a full morning of testing I have still had no success with a pickup coil. I have now built 12 JT's lol they all work fine but not one will work power a pickup coil.

Thanks!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on March 21, 2009, 10:19:07 AM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on March 21, 2009, 09:31:43 AM
Remember that for the pick up coil to work you must take out any LEDs you have connected between the ground and the collector.

Jesus

No.. In more than half the variations I have tried, I have gotten both the transistor and secondary(pickup coil) leds to light at the same time.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jonnydavro on March 21, 2009, 10:38:54 AM

@altrez.Hi.Can you put your ampmeter in series with the battery.If so what are the readings when-
1.Normal JT led in place
2.After removal off Normal JT led .Do not replace it for tests 3/4
3.Secondary coil open circuit
4 secondary coil with led
This will give us a clearer picture what is going on in your circuit.
regards jonnydavro

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 21, 2009, 11:16:41 AM

Quote from: AbbaRue on March 18, 2009, 09:07:06 PM
For a mold you could use wax and carve the shape in it, then remelt it to make a new mold if it gets damaged.
I'm not sure if the resin will get hot enough to melt the wax while curing though. Never tried it.
Or you could use some type of plaster or clay material. Drywall mud is quite cheap.
I would build a large mold with many cores in it so I only need to mix the resin and magnetite once.

Addendum: Here is a link on this forum on making magnetite cores. What an awsome forum we have here!
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3318.380

AbbaRue

Wax should work well for molds as long as the cores are small .

The curing process of fiberglass resin creates heat. With small parts that heat is dissipated quickly..
Large parts can overheat . 1 inch thick is a common limit for size ......maybe it would have to be thinner when using a wax mold.

Another possibility for molds is silicone rubber
I have used it for molds before , the difficulty is in making the mold so that it does not squash the silicone when it is being held in place to poor the resin.

If you are using just enough resin to bind the magnetite particles together the heat may not be an issue at all ......the magnetite will absorb much of it .

If you find your cores have to much magnetite I would suggest a filler ...... Portland Cement has been used as a filler in Epoxy resin for some applications such as restoration of buildings .

hope this helps

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 21, 2009, 11:54:35 AM

Quote from: Pardon on March 21, 2009, 01:34:05 AM
i have a coil that has 20 turns going the the Base/trigger and 70 turns going to the Collector/power. what i get with a 10 k ohm base resistor is .64 volts at the base and i get 1.03 volts at the collector. the bat voltage is 1.05 with no connection. the amp draw is .06 ma. that is the only coils of wire on this torrid the trans is a 3904.
with a 2222 trans i have to switch the base and collector wires and the base voltage using the same coil now has a base voltage of .04 and the collector is now 1.04 volts and the led is not as bright with this trans. the amp draw is now .09 ma.

so i am getting a better performace from the 3904. i wanted the highest voltage on the collector before adding a secondary to it

what you see is not always what you think it is.

this is showing you that both transistor have a bit different base triggering threshole voltage.
you can often see the same thing with two same part number that were not manufatured at same time(different batches) or not by same manufacturer.
since your coils are not the same size, the bigger coils get a greater potential difference compaire to the smaller one.

i suggest using a potentiometer instead of a fixed resistor.
you will get better result when adjusting the base resistor, with both transistors.

Quote from: altrez on March 21, 2009, 07:21:35 AM
I took 3 different nails of 3 different sizes. I made the JT circuit and it works fine I can light all my LEDS with it. However I can not get a pickup coil to work with the nails either.

there is a possibility that your transistor is not cconnected properly, collector/emiter.

just in case.
are your leds 3v type ?
if not, your jt might not be working at all...
try to light one directly from the battery to make sure.
if they light, put 2 or 3 in series, add one until the battery can't light them.

and the third coil is not connected to any of the jt connections, it is only using induction to work.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 21, 2009, 12:25:53 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 19, 2009, 06:12:31 AM
Another deviation on the whole Helmholtz inductors idea... this time lighting up a tester neon. Which was lit, but is now flashing. Voltage reading across the capacitor is 111.0v :)

It's interesting these operate like they do. The soldering on these was done alike on both of them, so, the red wire on one corresponds to the red wire on the other. ( i.e. they're wired opposing in the circuit just like any standard joule thief ).

Jadaro

Interesting idea

I have a couple of inductors that look similar to yours ....I can't read the numbers on them ...they are not exactly the same ......but close .....they are on ferrite cores.
I will have to see what I can do with them .

gary
gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on March 21, 2009, 12:48:04 PM

@all
Just for your Information . RGB leds will not work on a Jt normal or secondary as it stands . . The reason why is they RGB leds Have a MicroChip in them and Malfunction on a Jt . . I have The cure ! I have Played with them and have ran them fine with a modification I have .Same goes for any Chipped Led be it Blinking or rainbow RGB's They Need Pure Dc ! . Simply Put a Diode or Bridge rectifier on a secondary Output fed to an electrolytic Capacitor then you can light Chipped Leds .. L) Hope this helps everyone !

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 21, 2009, 12:56:41 PM

Quote from: dog812 on March 19, 2009, 10:08:54 AM

And i have been trying to figure out what you all mean by secondary? I can t find the original deffinition of it in here.
Is it like a whole other coil you add to the circuit?

Welcome Dog812

The JT is the 2 original wires of the coil connected with the start of one to the end of the other .
The secondary is an addition to the original JT

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 21, 2009, 01:56:57 PM

@Altraz,
I think johnnydavro's ideas are the most straightforward to help you, but I seem to remember that you do not have a dmm.
Is this true? They can be bought for under $10. Allelectronics has a good little cheap one.

also,
Do you have ANY regular LED's?

I don't remember where you live, but even radioshack sells leds that should give you the information on wether or not your secondary is functioning. (they have expensive single ones but they also have cheaper ones in a bag) I am assuming the money is a problem, cuz it is with so many of us here, but if not, just go and spring for some of these things. (pardon me if this is untrue)

@gadget thanks for that simple solution.

@all,
I have a blinking light on the secondary EDIT: make that PRIMARY of a jt .5volt battery this morning. The amps draw is oscillating to 4mA then 0.5mA then 0.00 then up again very regularly.
(EDIT there is no rectified voltage from the primary...)
BTW there is a cap across the battery that is oscillating from .5v to .6v too, so it is not happening from a battery recovering but the .5 volt level, I think.

Since it is 11, I should get some breakfast!! b back soon,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 21, 2009, 03:50:46 PM

Quote from: dog812 on March 20, 2009, 08:30:27 PM
P.S. Someone mentioned a "potentiometer"
Is ther any certain specs on this thing i shold be looking for.. or
this is my local electronic store i shop at.. if you can tell which item to go get from here. that would be great..
http://www.rpelectronics.com/ (http://www.rpelectronics.com/)

Dog

a potentiomete or pot is a variable resistor
it will usually have 3 coonnectors on it ........one to each end of the resistance element and the center to the wiper .
You will be using the center and one of the other connections

If you have an old radio or something like that the volume control is a potentiomete

they make pots with different resistances ..... try to get one with at least 1 K restance ......more is OK

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 21, 2009, 03:58:17 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on March 21, 2009, 03:50:46 PM
Dog

a potentiomete or pot is a variable resistor
it will usually have 3 coonnectors on it ........one to each end of the resistance element and the center to the wiper .
You will be using the center and one of the other connections

If you have an old radio or something like that the volume control is a potentiomete

they make pots with different resistances ..... try to get one with at least 1 K restance ......more is OK

gary

Dog

while you are thinking of getting parts

When you replace the resistor in your JT with a pot if you connect a capacitor across the connections of the pot you will have a tank circuit . I have found that some toroids don't work without this cap .
The tank goes into resonance at different frequencys based on the capacitance and resistance ...... if you get I usually try a 1uf cap and a.01uf sometimes with the 1uf the JT will slowly blink .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 21, 2009, 05:08:22 PM

Hi everyone,
I have a little success to crow about.
I only made 1/2 of a MK2 and lost count so I will have to recount it. And besides I can't really tune this til my precision pots come monday, BUT

I did get 10.8v and 10.6 v rectified from the 2 secondaries I wound. This feels cool. The light got terribly bright with each one. Not orange, but blazing bright when I turned the base resistor down and the only resistor is one that measures 799ohm.

Now, I will do my best not to get distracted while counting again. ;)

Thank you Mark. This is a great design.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 21, 2009, 07:02:16 PM

Jeanna is correct on the DMM's from Allelectronics. I bought 2 of them 2 $8.00 each and I was impressed on how good they work. (I am using them on my Bedini for input and output meters)

@ Jeanna:

Way to go! yes, Mark does have some great designs and I hope all of us can replicate them. It is fun when it works isn't it? I love this stuff!

@ MK1:

Thank you for your contributions here and your designs. More folks than you know are replicating these and are enjoying the output. Please keep up your good work.

@ All:

Another slightly off-topic video I made today after work. Yes, it is still just the Bedini motor but...this thing has been running for a couple of days and just keeps going. Soon I will tie it all into what we are doing here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2W0kOQAkYDc

I have a lot of reading to catch up on as well as continue my quest to update our diagrams topic. I have been so tied up lately but...I will do it I promise.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 21, 2009, 07:24:03 PM

well just to inform.....

THIS AINT NEW..... NEW TO MOST ..... ;)

1 WORD TESLA... DUHH!!

LOL

I SEE NHOTHING NEW IN ANY OF THIS ............

hummmmmm...

the pickup coils are nothing more than a generator winding .... the jt nothing more than a motor ...

im still scratching my head why this is any diffrent than anything else ... :)

lol

it is not ... well the wohle world only uses half it but ... it AINT NEW .... LOL

so i saw today a working ou device built many years ago.... simple sure i saw it work ... lol sure same old sh!t lol

but i think input was 220 v ac 1 phase output was 220v 3 phase .... hummmmmm

lol

sure it works well ... lol

but it is machinical .... and requires a grid source ...

altho i hear somthing like 36 dollar hydro bill ... hummmmm hence the grid powers the device ... the device powers 220v 3phase shop tools........

what is it ... lol but a mechanical ring ... ;)

!st

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jonnydavro on March 21, 2009, 08:00:28 PM

Hi.Jeanna mentioned a few pages back that you could light led's on a secondary coil and the current draw to the primary JT goes down well i can confirm her findings.I had to add a 1k pot after the ampmeter to control the input voltage to the jt circuit and then by tuning this pot and the 1k pot on the base off the transistor you can indeed get the effects jeanna described.Thanks Jeanna for reiterating this important discovery.Here is a video.I will try to post some pic's here tomorrow but my file compressor has evaporated .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5irW__iwfk
Regards jonnydavro

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 21, 2009, 08:09:20 PM

Hi everyone,

I guess my only problem is that I must have made enormous square holes in the foil of my 2 free breadboards using all those leds. So, now, the wires which are slightly smaller and round (therefore much less contact area) are giving me flaky results in my tests.

So, this morning I made the first half of a MK2 and this afternoon I completed it.
Each side has 2 wires going up 13 turns and going down 12 turns for a total of 4 wires of 25 turns each.

After fiddling etc with those aforementioned breadboard wires etc. I have been able to measure between 18V and 21V rectified on the 4 secondaries

and that totals around 80Volts. all coming from a 1.24v battery.

yeay wow yeay wow!!

thank you,

jeanna

@ist, of course it isn't new. Just new to anybody who hasn't tried it yet. ;)

@Pirate88179
Hi Bill. I'm glad to hear you are still here.
Is it warming up yet in BG KY? You still have the best shot for lighting up your street with some earth battery fed led christmas lights. Won't your apartment manager love you? HA!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on March 21, 2009, 08:13:54 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on March 21, 2009, 07:02:16 PM
Jeanna is correct on the DMM's from Allelectronics. I bought 2 of them 2 $8.00 each and I was impressed on how good they work. (I am using them on my Bedini for input and output meters)

@ Jeanna:

Way to go! yes, Mark does have some great designs and I hope all of us can replicate them. It is fun when it works isn't it? I love this stuff!

@ MK1:

Thank you for your contributions here and your designs. More folks than you know are replicating these and are enjoying the output. Please keep up your good work.

@ All:

Another slightly off-topic video I made today after work. Yes, it is still just the Bedini motor but...this thing has been running for a couple of days and just keeps going. Soon I will tie it all into what we are doing here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2W0kOQAkYDc

I have a lot of reading to catch up on as well as continue my quest to update our diagrams topic. I have been so tied up lately but...I will do it I promise.

Bill

Do not get misled for a long duration of a bedini motor with a 12v battery as source.
If you take a look to the pictures, you will see that the source is discharging very slowly.

You need to readjust the potentiometers in order to find a spot where the source voltage goes up.
If you cant find that spot. I give you an official welcome to the club. There are thousands of experimenters including me that have not been able to make the source battery to charge.

I have been able to only get the battery to not discharge, but to be undecided if going up or down. The voltage goes down a point and then goes up a point.

But never have been able to make it charge. The source battery I mean.

Jesus

Edit:

Another important thing is that if you do not want your charging battery to become a ghost charged battery (damaged) do not let it charging if it is not discharged.

Get the information on how to make a regulator with a zener diode and a light bulb or LED, in order to get the light to spend the overcharge voltage when the battery is completely charged.

Remember I appreciate your friendship.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 21, 2009, 08:34:53 PM

Quote from: jeanna on March 21, 2009, 05:08:22 PM

I did get 10.8v and 10.6 v rectified from the 2 secondaries I wound. This feels cool. The light got terribly bright with each one. Not orange, but blazing bright when I turned the base resistor down and the only resistor is one that measures 799ohm.

Jeanna

You light all those LEDs with just 10V ?

My LEDs have not arrived yet so I did not try to see how many I could light ....I didn;t want to risk burning out any of the few I have .

My last toroid I got if I remember right 37V with the original JT Led in place . 48V with it removed . both of those readings were rectified DC

I am winding another toroid ......hoping for 150 V or more .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 21, 2009, 09:47:01 PM

@Pirate,

I don't know if you are attempting feedback to source or not, but there's an idea. ...you could try running the device from one of those small 12V batteries, Duracell makes them, they're for garage door openers - unfortunately they're not for recharging. I think they have model number 21/23...this could be used to power the device, while it charges the other?

@IST, ...nothing new means not infringing any patents. :) this is especially true when what Tesla wrote about was published back in the late 1800's early 1900's.

@jonnydavro,

Interesting phenomenon you've witnessed - this essentially means it's using less with a pickup coil, this could have something to do with the fact that when the light isn't lit, there's more impedance from circuit flows - in other words, without a load, the device is essentially short circuited.

@resonanceman, and all,

I've gotten the basic Joule Thief to work with many inductors, all successfully. I got the voltage readings in upwards of 160 volts across a capacitor...

@gadgetmall, thanks for the information about the chipped LED's.

@jeanna,

I'll have to try an mk1 or 2, I may try a deviation - I've got about 15 toroids now.

@all, has anyone attempted winding ferrite bars instead? ...toroids are a pain to wind.
Also, isn't the idea of having a pickup coil to capture voltages that would normally be soaked up by the collector - i mean, placing the pickup coil between the two primaries, or in some equivalent manner be like buffering the flux collapse?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 21, 2009, 10:11:18 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on March 21, 2009, 08:34:53 PM
Jeanna

You light all those LEDs with just 10V ?

My LEDs have not arrived yet so I did not try to see how many I could light ....I didn;t want to risk burning out any of the few I have .

My last toroid I got if I remember right 37V with the original JT Led in place . 48V with it removed . both of those readings were rectified DC

I am winding another toroid ......hoping for 150 V or more .

gary

I got my new toroid wound ....not quite what I had hoped

87V with the JT LED 101V without
No real power ....... I was thinking that once I got around 100 V I would be able to light my string of LED christmastree lights ..... Nothing not even a blink

I am going to try to tune it a little ....... maybe I will get a little ,more ...

gary

edit

adding caps acrss the base resistor seems to add some power
I added a 150uf cap with the resistance low it flashes very slowly .........but the flashes are VERY bright .
With the BIG cap I get 102 V with the JT LED 126 with the LED remooved

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 21, 2009, 10:43:36 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on March 21, 2009, 10:11:18 PM

I got my new toroid wound ....not quite what I had hoped

87V with the JT LED 101V without
No real power ....... I was thinking that once I got around 100 V I would be able to light my string of LED christmastree lights ..... Nothing not even a blink

I am going to try to tune it a little ....... maybe I will get a little ,more ...

gary

edit

adding caps acrss the base resistor seems to add some power
I added a 150uf cap with the resistance low it flashes very slowly .........but the flashes are VERY bright .
With the BIG cap I get 102 V with the JT LED 126 with the LED remooved

Use a ceramic disk capacitor with a 1kv rating ..the higher the capacitance, the longer the discharge due to the draw and drain from that capacitor. I've noticed on some of my models that the capacitance on the tank circuit part of the joule thief doesn't need to be all that high because it effects the pulsing.

Your christmass lights may be require ac power. If so, remove any diodes from your pickup coil.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 21, 2009, 10:44:56 PM

VOLTAGE COMES AT A COST!!

;)

if you want higher voltage... you need higher resistance ..... ;)

this is how i get 110vdc from 7x7 pickup .......

any where in the working freq....

if i use a 4000 series diode my voltage is less than half ...... ;)

if i want to charge caps i want voltage .... if i want to drive motors light bulbs and such i want LESS resistance and i will get less voltage and more amprage ...

if you want a sm17 well npn pnp 2 jt's 2 caps and 1 BIG RING... ;D and dump the caps .... ;)

im sure you get it by now ...

ist!

so what you want to build next!?!?!?!?!?!

did soeone want a GARAGE POWER SUPPLY??

SURE WE CAN BUILD THEM :)

CONTACT ME ... I HAVE TIME IM SELLING NOW ...

I WILL BUILT THEM ... I MUST EAT AS EVERYONE .... I WILL START WITH 1 KW INVERTORS ....

NO LIMITS!! ;)

THE BATCAP WAS POSTED

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 21, 2009, 10:51:38 PM

@jonnydavro,
I missed your post before. Thanks for making that youtube vid. It is very clear.
And thanks for the replication.

@Jadaro,
Who knows what it means. I know the amount without the light lit is what the transistor takes. I don't understand why a short anywhere is necessary to describe this. [I think it is tuning] also,
The transistor is using the amount going through the base wether or not any thing is across the C,E. Plus there is nothing at all connected to the toroid secondary winding when it is not being used to turn on a light..... I don't think electronics has an explanation for this.

tee hee... toroids are fun to wind!! (its all attitude ;) )

@resonanceman,
I am not really turning the lights on with 10V. They are arranged in parallel and really take only a couple of volts.
All of my christmastree lights from 3 different companies are designed in groups of about 35 in series. If you divide 110 by 35 you get 3.1v or a nice safe voltage for a bright white led. .a spike won't kill the string and a dip won't turn it off either.

When I did that 30 led array in january, the arrangement was a combo series parallel. There were 10 in series and each of those has 3 in parallel.

Later I rearranged my array to 30 all parallel and not only did they all light, but there was little more required than to light just one.

IMO 30 leds is too many to be a useful light. The light strings are nice, but I think they should be rearranged in parallel for use with a jtc.

Someone AbbaRue, maybe, told Bill to short the 2 light prongs in the led string. This was with a fuji ckt, but it is what allowed Bill to light his 400 lights, or something like this.
Bill, can you supply the info here?

Way back wilby posted a few circuit diagrams for possible ways to remake a LED light built into a standard light bulb. A modification of this idea is appealing to me for use in house lighting. I have a spotlight led. Frankly it is too bright to use. It is great as a flashlight. but it makes it hard for me to see anything in a darker corner when it is on. It is too bright.

Imagine complaining about getting 87volts from 1.5! How far we have come!

thank you all,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 21, 2009, 11:26:13 PM

@ Jeanna:

To clarify, if I can. When I was told to bridge the two prongs from the male plug on my led Christmas lights, it was to see if it would light using one wire only. It did. 100 leds lit using only one wire from the modified Fuji circuit. All of the other videos I have done lighting leds with the Fuji was with using both prongs either in parallel or series...it didn't seem to matter that much for the light output. I hope this explains it. If not, let me know and I will try to make it more clear.

Also, Jeanna, I watched Jonnydavro's new video and his conclusion is exactly what you had posted before. To me, this is indeed a good replication and, having seen Jonny's other work, he knows what he is doing. Add more leds and the amp draw goes down or stays the same. They did not teach this in electrical engineering classes I am sure. (no offense meant to EE's) Great job Jeanna! (and Jonny)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 22, 2009, 12:06:00 AM

IMAGINE THAT .....

my you tube vid finally uploads.......

IST MK3 COIL TRASNFORMER NON TRANSFORMER ACTION ;)

enjoy!!

ist

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jiodkjo9hpk

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 22, 2009, 12:17:31 AM

@ IST:

Great video! This really means something here. The other led does not seem to know another one is lighting up at all. This goes to what Jeanna did, (and Mark) and now Jonnydavro. I think this is very important. Great work.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 22, 2009, 12:22:11 AM

if you notice in my last video ...

there 3 sources of out put :o

my big ringggs use ALL 3 ;)

i want a pig on the input if ya feel that ;)

ist!

thanks bill for all your positive support ..... and everyone WHO BELEAVES IN THE TRUTH

i guess NOW YOU SEE WHY I HAD SUCH A HARD TIME TO UP LOAD IT ....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 22, 2009, 12:33:42 AM

After I returned last weekend, I went through all the still existing toroids in my stash. I compared records and took a new look at some.

Now, I may have missed one but I believe there was only 1 toroid that did not display this interesting lowering of amps draw with the addition of the secondary driven led.

In fact, most of them lower the amps draw a small but repeatable bit when you add a led in the bjt light place. Not much, but always the same for the toroid.

So, the one that is different has a lot more bjt winds. It has 14 bjt winds and it had 132 secondary all but a few going in one direction around the toroid from beginning to end. ... . It is possible that if I had just made the secondary turn back to the beginning place, the results would be more like the rest of them. I won't be doing this though. Anyone who wants to try, be my guest...

This does bring up an important point, and for those just starting out making jt's let me explain.

When you wind the secondary it really helps a lot to start where the wire that goes to the common is (this is the twisted beginning/end one) and progress away from that point and return (probably) starting about half way along the length of your secondary.

MK1 incorporates this in his directions and I have always used this method since I made my first MK1. (except for this one I took down today). I was reminded of its importance. I made a pretty bad copy of the toroid slayer made with 8 layers or something... I didn't make 8 layers, but when the results looked bad, I pulled some of the secondary off and rewound it back in the direction of the starting place and the results improved.
EDIT... I just found that toroid in my notebook. It turns out this one that is no good IS the one I made in a lousy copy of slayers toroid.

So, for what it is worth, I recommend winding all your secondaries in 2 directions.

thank you,

jeanna

EDIT. That is a very good video ist. Thank you.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 22, 2009, 12:52:22 AM

i whipped up a quick IST MK GARAGE POWER STATION UNIT ......

GOT THE DOW ..... WE GOT THE TIME ....

ISTEAM!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 22, 2009, 01:09:04 AM

That's purrty ist.

Is it going to have just the one side?
And whose job is it ;) to sort through those wires! ;D

What do you get from this one for results?? ??

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pardon on March 22, 2009, 01:11:05 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 21, 2009, 09:47:01 PM
@all, has anyone attempted winding ferrite bars instead? ...toroids are a pain to wind.
Also, isn't the idea of having a pickup coil to capture voltages that would normally be soaked up by the collector - i mean, placing the pickup coil between the two primaries, or in some equivalent manner be like buffering the flux collapse?

I have but only one. it's 1/4 inch dia by 1-3/8 long. the 1st winding(power coil) equals the length of the bar about 50 turns. and insulated from the bar. the 2ND winding also insulated from the 1st winding is 15 to 20 turns spaced out for the length of the bar(trigger coil). the secondary is insulated from the 2ND coil and wound end to end and back plus a few turns back to the other side. so i have 3 wires out each side. the first 2 coils need a cross over 1 wire from each side to light an led (normal JT wiring)

i did not test it with a normal JT ckt. but here is what i get Bat voltage no load 1.04 v Base = 0.75 before resistor and cap Base = -0.43 v after res and cap. the collector =0.75. collector after a diode 3.47v. the secondary rectified =+7.65 v with led and +9.23 with out led in place.

also when this ckt is powered off the led stays lit for over 1 minute but it's very very dim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 22, 2009, 01:12:47 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 21, 2009, 09:47:01 PM
@all, has anyone attempted winding ferrite bars instead? ...toroids are a pain to wind.

yes.
they also work, are they better ?, i can't say.
what i know is toroids are better all around compaire to El core, inculding work at higher frequencies.

ferrite bars are normaly only use as inductors but my flash unit is using one for its auto transformer.

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 21, 2009, 09:47:01 PM
Also, isn't the idea of having a pickup coil to capture voltages that would normally be soaked up by the collector - i mean, placing the pickup coil between the two primaries, or in some equivalent manner be like buffering the flux collapse?

there are a lots of reasons to separate the jt coils.
the first is Lenz's law of induction.
an other is that they are, in a way, working against each other.
by spreading the coils around the toroid there are less chances of blind spots

sometime i am wondering how a 1/x ratio would work.
1 being the number of turns of the base coil and x the number of turns to the collector coils.
theoricaly this should lower the voltage picked up, by induction from the collector coil, by the base coils.

B.T.W.
@all
what IST is playing with is called Litz wire.
Litz wire is often used in the windings of high-frequency transformers.
it increase their efficiency by lowering both skin effect and proximity effect.

@Mk1
i have already played with litz wire, at school.

each individual wire are affected by the core current in the same manner, even if they are twisted, they are as if they were separated coils.
that mean that i already know the outcome of one of the test i was to make.
it increase the efficiency at high frequencies.
i will still do that test and post the results as promised tho.

Quote from: innovation_station on March 21, 2009, 07:24:03 PM
the whole world only uses half it but ... it AINT NEW .... LOL

i agree with you, but there are good reasons for this, technical, and monetary.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 22, 2009, 01:25:03 AM

@jeanna

naw im just lazy ... it will have 2 windings ...

i have been through a alot in the last few weeks

lets say my mind aint on my work .... it was 2 years ago ....

now its just getting BORING....

ist!

gotta have a life too...

i have been saying this SAME THING for soooooooo looooooonnnnnggggggg

;)

perhaps way back in LOTR THRED... ;)

looked for help all over .... all i herd was yea right sure it works ... then some big people come to see me TELL ME I GOT NOTHING ...

AND I SAY

NO YOUR WRONG AND YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT IM SHOWING YOU .... THEN TOOOOOO CHEEP TO BUY ME A FEW SUPER CAPS .....

I THINK THEY JUST DID NOT WANT ME TO PROVE THEM WRONG ;)

YET 1 MORE TIME .....

ist!

simple solution for the wires ... in my winding

put diodes in pairs ... solder 2 to each wire lol your done match em up with a meter ;)

it does not need to be difficult.. :)

i guess i will assemble the diodes this coil gets 120 diodes all 800v 3 amp ... i may be able to cut back on them ... tooo ... it is what ever i desire for output and runtime ... it is a BALANCEING ACT

AND NOW WE ARE BACK TO RUSSEL BALANCED RYTHEMIC INTERCHANGE...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 22, 2009, 01:31:11 AM

Quote from: jeanna on March 21, 2009, 10:51:38 PM
@jonnydavro,
I missed your post before. Thanks for making that youtube vid. It is very clear.
And thanks for the replication.

@Jadaro,
Who knows what it means. I know the amount without the light lit is what the transistor takes. I don't understand why a short anywhere is necessary to describe this. [I think it is tuning] also,
The transistor is using the amount going through the base wether or not any thing is across the C,E. Plus there is nothing at all connected to the toroid secondary winding when it is not being used to turn on a light..... I don't think electronics has an explanation for this.

it does :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformer

QuoteWinding resistance dominates load losses, whereas hysteresis and eddy currents losses contribute to over 99% of the no-load loss. The no-load loss can be significant, meaning that even an idle transformer constitutes a drain on an electrical supply.

that mean that the loss is greater without a load.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 22, 2009, 02:04:22 AM

Quote from: TheNOP on March 22, 2009, 01:31:11 AM
it does :)

that mean that the loss is greater without a load.

And the loss is the amps draw? so, the amps draw is greater without the load?

hmm.

thanks. There is no way in the world I would have been able to put that together to mean this.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 22, 2009, 02:21:26 AM

This lower amp draw from a loaded transformer is what caused the 'vampire devices' hysteria back in the energy star craze ...those wall transformers / block devices that we use to charge cell phones, and what not actually use electricity even though they're not really in use.

@all having success,
Some of you that are having success with your toroid winding - have you though about creating a PDF or some versioned document for instructions - this would make it easier for Pirate to move it to the diagrams thread when the time comes.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 22, 2009, 02:21:49 AM

i have decided to do a little math regarding the coil im showing ...

i will use 2vdc-.5vdc as my supply ...

now each out put as the wire is rated can handle 600v@10amp my diodes can handle 800v @3amp

so out put of my coil could be 800v 1.5 amp ... no worries ... my wire canhandleit ascan my diodes ... now

imagine 30 outputs of 800vdc @1.5 amp ... and that is only 1 side ...

so now you say how the hell you gonna get 1.5 amp @ 800v ..... x 30

hummmm

i bet you ALL ALREADY KNOW ;)

tune it to the voltage you desire ... and give her some GRUNT :) lol

i will increace the driveing amprage.. till i get the desired out put amprage .....

ist!

YOU KNOW IT!!

BTW IF IT IS WRONG ... FIX IT!!!!! IM A KID WHO DROPED OUT OF SCHOOL DONT EXPECT PERFECTION .... WITH A VERRY LIMITED KNOWALAGE OF ELECTRONICS

were lucky i made it this far ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 22, 2009, 02:26:53 AM

Quote from: jeanna on March 22, 2009, 02:04:22 AM
And the loss is the amps draw? so, the amps draw is greater without the load?

hmm.

thanks. There is no way in the world I would have been able to put that together to mean this.

jeanna

a secondary coil(s) does not "draw" amps upon the primary.
a transformer secondary, by virtue of induction, only use the current that is already circulating in the primary.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 22, 2009, 02:36:27 AM

I've posed this question once before; I will simply rephrase it now due to the fact that it's been a broken thought across many posts.

Shouldn't we worry about what type of voltage is bouncing back to the negative end of the battery? Couldn't this effect the battery?

I understand that these device are using transient surges from collapsing magnetic fields, and that there are pickup coils which are harvesting these voltages - in most circumstances - however, doesn't it stand to reason that there may be high voltages returning to both the transistor as well as the to the battery, and that these components and the coils connected to the collector and base mad be getting voltage flux from the pickup coil as well?

There are options, zeners, etc, however, the ideal setup is one that minimally effects the transistor and thus the battery as well. And we could come up with some elaborate system for that, but I bet it would turn out a lot like the ballast in a florescent light fixture.

Of course, the quest for over unity would have us all looking at a completely resonant circuit, where all we need is to start the process of resonance and let the device do the rest, however, that's more or less what the toroidal power unit is all about.

I still wonder if the fact that this is a toroid has something do do with it's effects - which is why I asked about the ferrite rod, and posted that picture of the split lock-washer. I'm thinking about sacrificing one of my toroids to create a split in it just to see if this effects operation as I think it may - what gets me started in on the weirdness of all of this is, that the majority of electromagnetic fields ( flux lines and thus current ) are at the center of any coil and so out toroids must be conducting, if at least a little, on their inner material, as well as at their center of gravity.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 22, 2009, 03:54:41 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 22, 2009, 02:36:27 AM
Shouldn't we worry about what type of voltage is bouncing back to the negative end of the battery? Couldn't this effect the battery?

adding a cap in parallel with the battery should help eliminate the transient surge going back the the battery.

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 22, 2009, 02:36:27 AM
base mad be getting voltage flux from the pickup coil as well?

yes, same surge goes to the base.
see my suggestion of turns ratio for the jt coils.

a zener diode will probably return us to what IST sayed.
"the whole world only use half of it"
the proper way to use a zener diode is to sink the over voltage through a resistor, sink = loss energy to me.
but currents always seek the less resistive path, who know what the result would be.
it need to be tested.

a zener can be use unconventionally to damp the voltage but it is no better than a resistor in that case.

we must thrive to keep the triggering voltage of the base as low as possible,.
so a ~.7 volts or lower can reach the base at all time.
while protecting it and not imper the current flow between the collector and emitter.

a separate low voltage triggering circuit, blocking/non blocking or crystal oscillator , can possibly be used too.
that circuit can be protected by diodes without affecting the jt transistor/coils operation.

b.t.w.
ballast in a fluorescent, unless it is electronic(screw in cfl), are resistive transformers.
meaning the amps are limited only by resistance, 7.5kv at ~80 watts.
at higher frequency, we don't need 80 watts...
look like it still cost less to waist energy to resistance then using the right way to limit amps.
unless they keep for future, so they can ask more $$$ for that "innovation".

but, with the price of copper, it is slowly changing i think.
i had to change my furnace ignition transformer, the replacement part is an electronic one. :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 22, 2009, 08:12:41 AM

@jonnydavro

That is a great idea! I will try that today and then post the results from 3 different toroids. Thank you for the help!

@TheNop

The Leds I am using to test with are RadioShack part #276-0005 Ultra High Brightness 10mm White LED with a FW supply of 3.5V and a max of 4.0V. They will not light from the battery at all by there self. If I add in the JT circuit they will light just fine. And yes I have th 3rd coil setup for induction work only. Thank you!

@jeanna

I have around 6 DMM to test with :) I do have a local radioshack here in Kentucky where I buy all of my LED's from. Thankfully god has blessed me with a understanding wife and money is not an issue with small projects such as this one. So thankfully I can buy things as I need them with in reason. I have around 40 LEDS ranging from 3.5v to 1.7 volt And I have tested the JT with all different types of LEDS. All of my JT circuits work. No pickup coils work however. Even with a 1.7volt LED on the pickup. Thank you for helping me try to figure this out!!!

@ALL

Thanks!! This is really an awesome place to hangout and tons of nice people!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 22, 2009, 10:49:43 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 22, 2009, 02:36:27 AM
I've posed this question once before; I will simply rephrase it now due to the fact that it's been a broken thought across many posts.

Shouldn't we worry about what type of voltage is bouncing back to the negative end of the battery? Couldn't this effect the battery?

Jadaro

If we made a JT powerful enough the voltage bouncing back to a battery could become a problem .
As it is now .......I think that most people are working on getting the most that they can from the secondary . It is somewhat isolated from the rest of the circuit . so risk to the battery or transistor is minimal .

Quote

I still wonder if the fact that this is a toroid has something do do with it's effects - which is why I asked about the ferrite rod, and posted that picture of the split lock-washer. I'm thinking about sacrificing one of my toroids to create a split in it just to see if this effects operation as I think it may - what gets me started in on the weirdness of all of this is, that the majority of electromagnetic fields ( flux lines and thus current ) are at the center of any coil and so out toroids must be conducting, if at least a little, on their inner material, as well as at their center of gravity.

Conducting electricity and conducting magnetic flux are 2 compleatly different things .
A magnetic conductor does NOT need to be an electrical conductor .

The thing about toroids is they keep the flux path within them ..... at least that is my understanding.
The fact that there is a complete flux path helps create a little " magic " at times .

To get the same type of affect from a rod you would have to add a return path for the flux ........transformers do this with the laminated iron that goes around the coil .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on March 22, 2009, 11:05:02 AM

Here are 2 pictures with 4 classic JT circuits running. All 4 are using 10k resistors and NPN 2222 transistors. Each pair is sharing a single rechargeable 2100 mah 1.2 volt battery. LEDs are 10mm White 100ma ultra high brights. All LEDs have brightness approx equal to running off 3.6v, 80ma power supply from RC car recharger. There is a 1 amp chip style bridge rectifier on each board not being used..

4 different coil arrangements....

1. 1 inch ferrite toroid sold at Elec Goldmine in 5 pack for $1
2. 1 inch ferrite High Permeability ferrite toroid sold at Elec Goldmine for $1 each
3. 1 inch Yellow ferrite mystery toroid ripped out of a comp power supply (had to add a small cap parallel to resistor to get to light)
4. 3/4 inch diameter, 2 inch long ferrite transformer core taken out of a microwave oven

All have 10 turn bifilar made up of 22ga speaker wire from Radio Shack

1. Power consumption is 20ma
2. Power consumption is 22ma
3. Power consumption is 18ma
4. Power consumption is 25ma

Reguardless of core meterial, all these cores are pretty much doing the same thing with 10 turns. Not sure why number 3 needs a cap to light, might have something to do with the cores inherrent frequency. Adding the cap parallel to the resistor changes the frequency of the circuit.

Enjoy! Questions? Answers ???

TYGER

.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 22, 2009, 01:37:12 PM

sure i have a question ...

cap voltage...

also

why did you not split the jt on the flyback

and wind collector coils..... WHERE YOU PUT THE JT...?? ?? somthing fly out the conners?!?!?!

IST?

how you gonna ramp it up ?? lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 22, 2009, 02:05:35 PM

Hazens1

very good job.
Thank you so much for doing systematic work on these toroids. It has real meaning.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on March 22, 2009, 02:23:35 PM

@IST
Just expirementing around to get some things straight in my brain. I threw these 4 coils together just to see the difference that each has on identical or nearly identical circuits.

@Jeanna
Thanks!

@All
Here are some of my recent working cores. Some with Secondary(Pickup) coils, some with just Base and Collector coils. All of these with the right resistor/capacitor were able to light LEDs from the classic JT Collector/Emitter location and/or Secondary coils if it had one.

1. 38 turn bifilar 26ga (Base/Collector) on a 1.25 inch power supply toroid (NO Secondary)
2. 22 turn bifilar 30ga (Base/Collector) on a 0.25 inch CFL toroid (18 turn 26ga Secondary)
3. 22 turn bifilar 26ga (Base/Collector) on a 0.50 inch power supply toroid (88 turn 30ga Secondary)
4. ~80 turn bifilar 26ga (Base/Collector) on a 10 turn 22ga copper 2 inch toroid (10 turn 22ga used as core works as a Secondary)
5. 10 turn 26ga Base, 10 turn 26ga Collector on a High Permiability 1 inch Elec-Goldmine toroid (80 turn 26ga Secondary)
6. 22 turn bifilar 26ga (Base/Collector) on a 5/8 inch power supply toroid (44 turn 26ga Secondary)
7. ? turn ?ga (Base/Collector) on a Transformer core from power supply (NO Secondary)
8. ? turn bifilar 22ga (Base/Collector) Speaker wire air core on spool (NO Secondary)

TYGER

.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 22, 2009, 02:26:29 PM

@MK1,
Did you ever try to make secondaries that have different lengths all on the same piece of ferrite?

I am thinking of kicks, now. I am just wondering if you tried it. It will not be an easy thing to wind .

Here is my idea.

To start with there will be 2 lengths, but ultimately there will be 3 .

put all the jt stuff at one end.
take 1 wire 90 inches and fold it in half and mark its center.
Do this with another that is 60 inchec long and mark its center
Do something to be able to distinguish the ends.

twist all 4 wires together up to the center mark of the shorter one.

wrap this around a toroid to the first center mark just described.

Take the remainder of that shorter wire and hold it aside and continue wrapping up to the middle mark of the longer one.
Turn and wrap down to the point where the shorter one has been held aside.
Add this shorter one and continue to wrap all 4 wires to the place where it all began.

This should give 2 kicks per cycle, should it not?

Maybe it will cancel.

It is worth trying, but if you have already found that it cancels, maybe not.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 22, 2009, 02:35:34 PM

@hazens1, how well does #5 perform?

@ist, Have you ever though about using a Villard / Greinacher circuit for ramping up voltages?

@all,
Villard / Greinacher circuits here:http://www.kronjaeger.com/hv/hv/src/mul/ (http://www.kronjaeger.com/hv/hv/src/mul/)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 22, 2009, 02:41:00 PM

Quote from: altrez on March 22, 2009, 08:12:41 AM

@Altrez,
I am thinking what is wrong might be how or where you are hooking up your secondary wires.

Did you already answer this?

Exactly what are you doing with the burned/sanded secondary wire ends?
You have made a pic of your basic jt or toroid. If it is too hard to describe, can you upload a pic of the secondary wires in place and not working?

This is such a puzzle. I am sure the answer is very simple. Once solved, it will probably help lots or others too.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 22, 2009, 02:48:34 PM

@jeanna

I did make coil of different type on a single toroid , i am not a fan of the separated coil on one side , because of the dead spot it creates .
On your 20 per coil you may get a bit better results , but not that much , its the toroid .

@Hazen1

I don't think you should be twisting the ends of the coil together. and the end of the pickup coil don't leave them on the other coil.

Btw i don't see why your toroid should not work.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 22, 2009, 03:04:09 PM

Now I'm confused: do we need high permeability or low permeability?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 22, 2009, 03:49:38 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 22, 2009, 03:04:09 PM
Now I'm confused: do we need high permeability or low permeability?

RIGHT!

I just checked for resistance of the toroid material because someone said this predicts the permeability. (I think my brain is high permeability! There are so many contradictory things. ;) )

I have 4 that are not painted - well maybe 3. One looks like cement, but it may be paint.

the highest permeability according to the vendor has a resistance of 12Kohm from inside to outside the material.
EDIT btw this gave me the hands down worst results (except for the one I mentioned last night.

I have OK results using the medium toroid from goldmine 5/$1. This one says 3Kohm

The 2 best ones are the little charcoal from allelectronics which is definitely not painted and it is >2Mohm off the chart
and the 'filter' from goldmine which may be painted and is also >2Mohm.off the chart.

the charcoal is too small for many turns of secondary so it is limited.
This 'filter' gives me my best results.

Is it OK to remove the paint from these things? anyone know?

Thanks jadaro. good question.

@MK1

I missed if you ever tried different lengths on your MK's?? ??

EDIT ADD:

I got higher results from the secondary on my MK1 in January. 30v and 29v. But these were from 52 turns up down up down and 7T bifilar split primary. I think you are right it must be the toroid. but with 25 turns = 20 volts each way rectified from 1.2vbat on each of 4 wires from the same core with room for more is not discouraging at all.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 22, 2009, 03:53:15 PM

I got some toroids from the same place and they're giving me crap - I'm having better results with these Helmholtz style inductors that I posted a while back.

I mean, these toroids are absolutely giving me crap results.

*edit: I put a coin in between the two Helmholtz style inductors, and the circuit will stop functioning. It's interesting that these two aren't physically sharing a core, yet they work all the same and produce ~120v.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 22, 2009, 04:01:01 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 22, 2009, 03:53:15 PM
I got some toroids from the same place and they're giving me crap - I'm having better results with these Helmholtz style inductors that I posted a while back.

I mean, these toroids are absolutely giving me crap results.

Sorry i don't see it that way .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 22, 2009, 04:04:47 PM

Jadaro,
Did you ever get 20 or 30 rectified volts from the secondary on your helmholz coils?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 22, 2009, 04:17:57 PM

Quote from: jeanna on March 22, 2009, 04:04:47 PM
Jadaro,
Did you ever get 20 or 30 rectified volts from the secondary on your helmholz coils?

jeanna

You keep saying secondary - there is no secondary if it's pickup coils you're talking about - in this setup, and there's no pickup coil yet per se.

Quote from: jeanna on March 22, 2009, 04:04:47 PM
Did you ever get 20 or 30 rectified volts from ... your helmholz coils?

Absolutely! ...and here's another picture or two; I'm getting 120 volts in the first one (repost) where I'm getting 80 volts in the second one. The second image - I have the inductors setup so that current flowing through them is such that the top of one is north and the top of the other is south, if I touch the two together while the circuit is running, the neon flashes faster or glows - and the coils stick together through magnetic attraction.

You'll have to forgive me, I couldn't capture the image while the neon was in flash, :P, but the second one does indeed work.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 22, 2009, 04:30:15 PM

@jadaro

On my toroid i light a neon like yours but i can light 16 of those on the mk8 , from 6 mili.
I am not using scalar you can use them but its not the idea.
And none of my toroid need a cap to work?

@nop

Thank for almost saying i am right , lol.

Mark

Edit there are other things beside permeability , like flux density.

Since all toroid are different its hard to understand what is going on , if every time you make a toroid its a new type ,
use one and learn.

In the end if you still don't get it , you may not be meant to, sorry but true .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 22, 2009, 04:58:10 PM

@all, jeanna

Here's two videos of the device in it's working state, ..if you listen to it, it does sing when it gets mashed together. ..it's very quiet though, it may get cut out by the video encoder.

..if it will let me post them. http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item253 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item253)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 22, 2009, 05:25:41 PM

@jedaro, I will check it out in a bit.

@All,
I decided to re-test the MK1. Remember this was the first one to light 30LEDs off the secondary/pick up coil.
I used the 'filter' toroid material
2N3904
a cap below the base transistor to smooth the pot. R=2.5Kohm
I never wrote in my notes if I used the 2 sides separately and I was never sure. So, I just did that part of the test over.

btw, ALL these measurements include the 9.5ohm resistor coming off the battery. I just can't be bothered to remove it at every step after checking amps. sorry.

16mA bjt no light
17.6mA bjt w/led in jt position -- this one went up!
8.9mA 52turn secondary/pickup 1 light
9.0mA 52turn secondary/pickup 2 lights
9.1mA 52turn secondary/pickup 3 lights these also went up according to the leds added. (sorry the 30 lights are put away!)

30V Rectified no leds
13.8V Rectified led going one way
4.0V Rectified led going the other way

This is all as in January

Then I separated the 2 ends and used them as singles

each half rectifies to
19V
and each side the rectified volts goes to
2V with led going one way and
15V with led going in the other way.

So, connected they are less than the sum of the 2 wires.

I wonder if the explanation for this is the same as the explanation for why Gary couldn't light a cfl even though he had enough volts.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 22, 2009, 05:28:24 PM

@jadaro

I still don't see anything interesting about your setup, i did see that before , i don't see where you can improve to get results comparable to mine .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 22, 2009, 05:53:16 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 22, 2009, 05:28:24 PM
@jadaro

I still don't see anything interesting about your setup, i did see that before , i don't see where you can improve to get results comparable to mine .

I've got your mk1 and mk2 -how to- picture, what I don't understand is the winding.. does it go all the way around or are there more than one pickup coils?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 22, 2009, 06:00:30 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 22, 2009, 05:53:16 PM
I've got your mk1 and mk2 -how to- picture, what I don't understand is the winding.. does it go all the way around or are there more than one pickup coils?

The mk1 has 2 coil one on each side , not going any where but up and down on one side , the same on the other,
Mk2 has 2 on each side mk8 8 on each side. And stop trying to picture it and look at some pictures of it .

because the are some . I will not make a pdf , because its not for every one , people that think about making money before helping others get it , just don't get it , all the info is in those 150 first pages , i have read my self every post many times to make sure i understand what people are trying to say , and don't go to the next until done .

You do have some great idea , and are a good worker , but in my views you are not really giving anything new or even worth my time , sorry for my honesty. I am getting all the results i have stated any thing i do works , great but that is not the goal . So far there is more energy coming out then go in , and i don't use any tricks like hv caps , or bemf hmf
or what ever is fashionable on this site . Its just a regular step up transformer but a efficient one .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 22, 2009, 06:34:23 PM

The idea behind the helmholtz setup is that the coils are independent of one another - and you may not see much in the way of improvement for that, that's agreeable all together, the idea is that they're as independent of one another as your coils - being across from one another, however mine are separated by air and this makes it more difficult to add any pickup coils.

Additionally, we have the issues of the toroids emitting radio waves and sometimes sound.

When was it agreed that there was more output than input?

Why not just turn the thing on itself and have it power itself once and for all. :)

Or will bright lights cause it to malfunction? :P

*goes back to read the first 1500 posts*

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 22, 2009, 06:40:08 PM

Quote from: jeanna on March 22, 2009, 03:49:38 PM
Is it OK to remove the paint from these things? anyone know?

yes and no

yes: it won't make any differences on the way it work if the paint is not there.

no: the coating is there to protect the wires from sharp edge and protect from short circuits.
wire can move during operation(buzzing sound), with enough time, it can wear off the varnish off the wire causing a short.

be cautious about your resistance reading of some of your toroids.
you might think a toroid surface is a nude surface, when in faq it is actually varnished.

drill a small hole or scratch, about .020 ~ .060 mil deep, on both side, then take your measurement from there.

again.
high permeability = the degree of magnetization of a material in response to a magnetic field.
it is complex when frequencies is involve, but not that hard to see what is happening.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permeability_(electromagnetism)

for those who say ferrites are the best.
permeability frequency
ferrite (nickel zinc) 20-800 Ã— 10-6 H/m 100kHz ~ 1 MHz
ferrite (manganese zinc) >800 Ã— 10-6 H/m 100kHz ~ 1 MHz

that mean ferrites coefficient of coupling is at it highest when at ~550 kHz.
lower frequencies then 100k or higher then 1 MHz make the coefficient of coupling drop drastically.
it is the coefficient of coupling that determine a transformer efficiency

at what frequency is your jt working ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 22, 2009, 06:41:46 PM

@MK1,
When you put the pickup coil on the toroid for tuning do you also put all the ends in series? or do you just use one of them for the tuning?

I can go to the MK2 I made yesterday and possibly take away or add another turn and see if I can improve on the end voltage.

I am also wondering if you experience this deep loss of voltage really twice what it should be when you have a load?

I understand the polarity thing with the leds, of course, but when the pick up is running the led and I am still looking at the rectified voltage, I watch this voltage go down by 6 volts. So, as unexpectedly as the volts are high, they are also dropping off at a high rate.

Have you seen this?
Do you have a remedy for it?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 22, 2009, 06:50:20 PM

@jadaro

Your 2 inductor is what i call scalar . Before making improvement at least understand what you got.

has simple has you make it sound please do make it work on its own.

And yes you cant really ad more pickup coil , good how hard is it to understand there is the same current in all the coils. more coils more current , but not more then in the 2 primary .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 22, 2009, 06:52:31 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on March 22, 2009, 06:40:08 PM

that mean ferrites coefficient of coupling is at it highest when at ~550 kHz.
lower frequencies then 100k or higher then 1 MHz make the coefficient of coupling drop drastically.
it is the coefficient of coupling that determine a transformer efficiency

at what frequency is your jt working ?

That is the big question now, isn't it?

BTW this is not a simple transformer.
If there were not the inverter function going on simultaneously there could be no transformer action. I know everyone knows this, yet it seems over n over to be ignored.

We have a transformer and the ratio of turns sec to primary is what determines the output. But we also have an inverter.

This is a mysterious inverter. It has the frequency based on all the same things the transformer does.

This is the reason it is necessary to tune it. And the reason not all of these will tune alike.

Thanks for your help thinking about the varnish. I think I will skip it. Since it is no use to scrape off the paint just to know the resistance of the toroid since it won't save me any tuning time.

Oh well. It is fun to do. I don't need to save effort.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 22, 2009, 07:43:43 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 22, 2009, 06:50:20 PM
@jadaro

Your 2 inductor is what i call scalar . Before making improvement at least understand what you got.

has simple has you make it sound please do make it work on its own.

And yes you cant really ad more pickup coil , good how hard is it to understand there is the same current in all the coils. more coils more current , but not more then in the 2 primary .

I respect your work and your improvements to the subject at hand, but how am I supposed to, as you put it "understand what you got", as defined by you --you call it 'scalar', ..and I suppose I'm to understand that what I've got is the definition of 'scalar' - at least in your mind? Could you elaborate please?

If there's more out than in, then simply make two identical devices, and power one with the battery and the other with the output from the first, if you get an even higher output from the first then you're onto something.

...otherwise, it's just a voltage anomaly - the transformer action is mucking up what's measurable with respect to 'work that can be done'.

@jeanna, and all,
I'm going to post these few more picture of the Helmholtz setup and then I'm going to leave it alone for a while. This includes four 'orientations' where different voltage readings are taken from diode rectified third and fourth inductors.

In each, there is a small disk capacitor and a large rectangular capacitor, - the large is off the main, the small disk capacitors are independent of the circuit - acting as pickup coils, this is a 1kv 200pF capacitor and one or two 1n4148 switching diodes. The numbers aren't impressive - there's definitely not any more out than in.

Smaller number is /are the pickup coil(s) - so by all standards and practices here - it's crap for a setup - but it may be relevant to people attempting resonant circuits with inductor arrays ( or what not ).

Image 1:75v + 3v
Image 2:75v + 13v
Image 3:79v + 11.7v *ceramic disk capacitor not show in picture, oops
Image 4: 75v + 7.5v + 7v

Since this isn't a strategic placement thing, and because most Helmholtz coils don't conduct at 90 degrees, this is somewhat strange to me - and I'll leave it at that.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 22, 2009, 07:59:52 PM

@jadoro

I just don't see what you are doing , in this tread , since it has no toroid or jt circuit.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6763.0;topicseen that is one

Scalar wave , google it.

Even if its interesting , it deserve its tread .

By the way , if you don't feedback the right voltage it not going to work .

But yes i don't like saying there is more out then in , because people get dumb , when that happens .
I don't need to prove anything to anyone but my self , its all i need .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on March 22, 2009, 09:26:50 PM

@jadaro
Performs quite well for a High Permiability core. I have measured as high as 104volts rectified from a 20ma battery draw on a single rechargeable using a 1k ohm resistor to the base. I got the core from Elec-Goldmine. http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16332 (http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16332) I wound that using some new wire from Go Brushless. It's called newbie wire, because you can get the same gauge in different colors to distinguish the different coils. http://www.gobrushless.com/shop/index.php?app=ccp0&ns=catshow&ref=magnet+wire+newbie (http://www.gobrushless.com/shop/index.php?app=ccp0&ns=catshow&ref=magnet+wire+newbie) As far as what works best, high or low permiability? I don't think it matters as long as you match the frequency of the circuit to the material the toroid is made of.

The Green coil goes from the Positive of the battery to the Resistor which goes to the Base of the Transistor. The Red coil goes from the Positive to the Collector of the Transistor. The Gold coil is where the good stuff is :P

TYGER

.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 22, 2009, 09:40:31 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 22, 2009, 07:59:52 PM
@jadoro

I just don't see what you are doing , in this tread , since it has no toroid or jt circuit.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6763.0;topicseen that is one

Scalar wave , google it.

Even if its interesting , it deserve its tread .

By the way , if you don't feedback the right voltage it not going to work .

But yes i don't like saying there is more out then in , because people get dumb , when that happens .
I don't need to prove anything to anyone but my self , its all i need .

da ta boom !!

;D

dont blame ya there bro .... lol

jadoro

well i do find yout setups intersting ...

;D

dont give up bro i know you know where your going but lay off the the ou part .... YOU WILL LOSE THE BATTLE .... the facts speek FOR THEM SELVES...

btw it has to be a transformer ...

and it is .. it also interacts with THE EARTHS MAGIC FEILD ...... in the resonant transformer action .... this is the SONG IT SINGGGGGS... then there is inductive discharge ... or the colapse if you like the original jt only uses the colapse ... spike and the neg from the battery ... i see no transformer relation any where in the original jt nor is there a of relation turns .... just battery and kick ...

so

3 sources ... the battery ... the resonant cold ... and the colpapse

i want to know what is so DAMM hard to grasp .... lol this is SIMPLE SHIT!!

just try reverse engineering the TPU..... to find out it is THE KICK... with in the first few words SM says lol ;)

same tatictis ... as the op's..... lol

you have the RIGHT TO USE THE KICK.....

but anything i say after this point is ALL THAT IS REMEMBERED and you JUST FORGOT THE RIGHT that was given in the first line LOL

ist!

;D

THE SMOKE IS THICK ... AND THE MIRRORS DISTORT THINGS ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 22, 2009, 10:09:07 PM

@all

I have to say have fun , keep working hard , but first understand what you are doing , explain it to your self first.
Learn from you toroid it is the only way to get a good design .

And don't complicate stuff that is not.

That is about it for me , my time here is almost done .

@ist

Keep the good work , also get peace with gadget.

@pirate , electricme ,jeanna , nop , gadget

Keep the good work

I will need to go back to real life now get money , i have spent many nights up to get light , now i need to insure my own survival

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 22, 2009, 10:34:46 PM

Well,

@ist, thnkyou,

@all, I don't even tempt to go for ou.

I just find it interesting to try different setups - my goal isn't OU, ..it's actually what I had outlined many pages back - a simply 6-12v step-up flyback transformer for lighting large florescent light fixtures.

The idea is to patch a marketable product for use from low voltage low ampere sources for use in solar-direct applications.

Ideally, this would be implemented in a way that automotive RV's could utilize the light produced from high frequency high voltage output.

Additionally, while reading about CFL's the idea was brought up that CO2 may be used instead of mercury vapor lamps, ..this may prove interesting as an angle for a new type of 'green' lighting.

The only problem with the mobile setups is the RF generated from the toroids - hence why I've chosen to look into additional setups. I also understand that a toroid may be the LEAST polluting when it comes to electromagnetic radiation.

I really would like to see more about the CO2 lighting.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 22, 2009, 10:35:17 PM

Quote from: hazens1 on March 22, 2009, 09:26:50 PM
@jadaro
Performs quite well for a High Permiability core. I have measured as high as 104volts rectified from a 20ma battery draw on a single rechargeable using a 1k ohm resistor to the base. I got the core from Elec-Goldmine. ...
...

The Green coil goes from the Positive of the battery to the Resistor which goes to the Base of the Transistor. The Red coil goes from the Positive to the Collector of the Transistor. The Gold coil is where the good stuff is :P

TYGER

.

Interesting Hazens1,
This exact toroid is my worst performer. 104 rectified volts is way good.
The highest I got with this was 1.25V rectified. So, I put it away.

Did you stress it? Can you turn on a cfl? or a small ac motor? Or just,If you put a small load on it does it go way down?

You have connected these in a novel way, I think. I may just be tired, but to repeat it back to you, you have used 2 separate wires and connected them separately to the same connection points of a bjt. Is that right? These red and green wires are not connected to each other? They must be going in opposite directions, then. Is this correct?

Interesting.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 22, 2009, 10:39:03 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 22, 2009, 10:34:46 PM
Well,

@ist, thnkyou,

@all, I don't even tempt to go for ou.

I just find it interesting to try different setups - my goal isn't OU, ..it's actually what I had outlined many pages back - a simply 6-12v step-up flyback transformer for lighting large florescent light fixtures.

The idea is to patch a marketable product for use from low voltage low ampere sources for use in solar-direct applications.

Ideally, this would be implemented in a way that automotive RV's could utilize the light produced from high frequency high voltage output.

Additionally, while reading about CFL's the idea was brought up that CO2 may be used instead of mercury vapor lamps, ..this may prove interesting as an angle for a new type of 'green' lighting.

The only problem with the mobile setups is the RF generated from the toroids - hence why I've chosen to look into additional setups. I also understand that a toroid may be the LEAST polluting when it comes to electromagnetic radiation.

I really would like to see more about the CO2 lighting.

What do you think make your 2 inductor work .

Rf/Scalar wave

the rf from the jt needs to pickup its excess energy , and the overall design needs to be shielded that is all
So i don't get your point.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 22, 2009, 10:45:19 PM

shielding just routs the noise elsewhere - if it's mobile (ungrounded), won't it just go through the shielding? ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 22, 2009, 11:04:16 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 22, 2009, 10:45:19 PM
shielding just routs the noise elsewhere - if it's mobile (ungrounded), won't it just go through the shielding? ..

a shield reflect the rf.
there can even be holes in that shield and the shield would still reflect the signal.
this is true as long as the rf wave length is bigger then the holes.

wrap it in alu foil and forget it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on March 22, 2009, 11:05:02 PM

Hello gang . This is another just for your information . ALL oscillators Produce RF . If it oscillates its a transmitter . A jt is and can be tuned for a specific radio frequency .If you know Morse code like i do you can send messages for quite a distance if hook a long piece of wire to your toroid connection .. and if you add wire your adding an antenna .. I know because Im an armature radio operator for nearly 26 years . We used to make one transistor QRP shortwave transmitters with Just a transistor some resistors a few coils and caps . Wala !! . RF is GOOD !! The right Frequency and ionosphere conditions and you can transmit for 1000's of miles . I have logged japan ,Russia Germany and about 20 more countries with a small one transistor osc..

@ Dog . Hope you enjoyed the little gift .. Email me with the results . thanks

Edit ... found em . there still on the net .the one on the bottom is the one i remember using morse replacing the optional Mic .

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 22, 2009, 11:18:23 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 22, 2009, 10:09:07 PM
@all

I have to say have fun , keep working hard , but first understand what you are doing , explain it to your self first.
Learn from you toroid it is the only way to get a good design .

And don't complicate stuff that is not.

That is about it for me , my time here is almost done .

@ist

Keep the good work , also get peace with gadget.

@pirate , electricme ,jeanna , nop , gadget

Keep the good work

I will need to go back to real life now get money , i have spent many nights up to get light , now i need to insure my own survival

Mark

yes im sure gadget and i will find common ground ...

guys my time here comes to an end soon as well my job has been done ... long ago ....

learn from my mistakes ... save yourself a lifetime ;)

of work...

so yea i need to work on me .... ya know ... done the free engery thing the perpetual motion thing ... solved many parts and peices of the riddle they left for us to get lost in

i have played all cards im willing to play

keep thinking ... it will take you to your fast car ....

it brought mine to me ..... ;)

dont think this is all i have done lol ;) come on you know me better than this ... this is the simple stuff......

as i have said neozap is next and i already advanced that to almost it wildest form ;)

but why get light years a head all it does is SLOW YOU DOWN ... ;) i know first hand lol

ist!

or you could say i know LEFT HAND ;)

peace to all

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 22, 2009, 11:23:01 PM

Here is a page with some of that info in a slider applet form
http://lectureonline.cl.msu.edu/~mmp/applist/Spectrum/s.htm (http://lectureonline.cl.msu.edu/~mmp/applist/Spectrum/s.htm)
All that we are doing is well within the standard radio frequencies. So, I think we do need to contain these devices in faraday cages.

Cool gadget. I am envious of your knowledge.

I have a small collection of cookie tins (I collected them against mice in a cabin ahem!) Anyway I think it is easy enough to make a small metal box serve as electrical unit for a room or cabin. If it is big enough and if we get this right, we could even mount a plug into the side of one.

Just imagine cadbury biscuits making the lights go on!

I'm stoked. After getting 80 volts I am waiting impatiently for the precision pots for tuning a MK3 or 4.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 22, 2009, 11:53:06 PM

Hazans1:

Nice job on the coils! Thanks for the magwire link. I have been looking for a good supplier other than my local Radio Shack. Great work.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on March 23, 2009, 12:00:06 AM

Quote from: jeanna on March 22, 2009, 11:23:01 PM
Here is a page with some of that info in a slider applet form
http://lectureonline.cl.msu.edu/~mmp/applist/Spectrum/s.htm (http://lectureonline.cl.msu.edu/~mmp/applist/Spectrum/s.htm)
All that we are doing is well within the standard radio frequencies. So, I think we do need to contain these devices in faraday cages.

Cool gadget. I am envious of your knowledge.

I have a small collection of cookie tins (I collected them against mice in a cabin ahem!) Anyway I think it is easy enough to make a small metal box serve as electrical unit for a room or cabin. If it is big enough and if we get this right, we could even mount a plug into the side of one.

Just imagine cadbury biscuits making the lights go on!

I'm stoked. After getting 80 volts I am waiting impatiently for the precision pots for tuning a MK3 or 4.

jeanna

Jeanna your a sweet person . You have far more marbles left than i do ;) and you can learn morse in less than a week .. once you learn it you never forget it . Keep on keeping on !! ( ive been listening to much my web site hehe ) ;D Biscuit light JT :) they are going to say What is the world is that ?

Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 23, 2009, 12:12:56 AM

@ Jadaro:

I find what you are working on interesting as well. We ran into Helmholtz in the earth battery research and now he pops up again here. Keep up your experiments and keep sharing them with us. Thanks.

@ IST:

I hope your time here with us is not done....I understand about work though. I have had little time left after working these past few weeks. I appreciate all of your contributions, research and experiments you have posted here. Thank you.

@ MK1:

Same thing. I hope you continue to join us when you can. You have contributed much to our knowledge base here. Your devices (MK1, 2, 8 etc) are just now being successfully replicated here by some. These are great achievements and I know we all appreciate your sharing them with us. Thank you. Best of luck to you in your work and, as I said, I hope you can continue to be with us when you can. Take care.

@ All:

That is great info Gadgetmall posted about the rf business. Just for kicks, the other day I test my standard JT circuit (3904, 1k resistor, 1" ferrite toroid) with one of my RF detectors that I use in my business to locate wiretaps and hidden cameras for some of my clients. It has a freq. range of 50 mHz to 6 gHz. For what it is worth, it did not detect anything from the circuit. So, based upon what Gadgetmall posted, I would guess that the freq. on this JT is either higher, or lower than my detector's range. Common sense would lead me to believe it is lower than the range. Just thought I would share this little test.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on March 23, 2009, 12:18:21 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on March 23, 2009, 12:12:56 AM
@ Jadaro:

I find what you are working on interesting as well. We ran into Helmholtz in the earth battery research and now he pops up again here. Keep up your experiments and keep sharing them with us. Thanks.

@ IST:

I hope your time here with us is not done....I understand about work though. I have had little time left after working these past few weeks. I appreciate all of your contributions, research and experiments you have posted here. Thank you.

@ MK1:

Same thing. I hope you continue to join us when you can. You have contributed much to our knowledge base here. Your devices (MK1, 2, 8 etc) are just now being successfully replicated here by some. These are great achievements and I know we all appreciate your sharing them with us. Thank you. Best of luck to you in your work and, as I said, I hope you can continue to be with us when you can. Take care.

@ All:

That is great info Gadgetmall posted about the rf business. Just for kicks, the other day I test my standard JT circuit (3904, 1k resistor, 1" ferrite toroid) with one of my RF detectors that I use in my business to locate wiretaps and hidden cameras for some of my clients. It has a freq. range of 50 mHz to 6 gHz. For what it is worth, it did not detect anything from the circuit. So, based upon what Gadgetmall posted, I would guess that the freq. on this JT is either higher, or lower than my detector's range. Common sense would lead me to believe it is lower than the range. Just thought I would share this little test.

Bill

Hi Bill . For sure that Fancy detector will detect an fm transmitter ? well you shouldn't have posted that now they will go buy one of those cheap Mr microphones :) operates in the 28 -30 MHz Fm/Am band. Otherwise called HF or enev better a cheap kids walkie talkie . 27-28 Mhz .. anyone remember CB .well below 50 mhz.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 23, 2009, 12:40:17 AM

so im winding my second 5.5" toroide ... i finished the last one ... ran out of 22 ga but i managed to get 2 pickup coils of 30 strands each ... and it worked out to 22 turns 11 up 11 back both sides

my newist pick up im winding is 28 ga.... so yea i made it 15 feet long .... im aiming for 50 wires of 28 ga... i will build 2 of thease for this coil .....

the coil is called !ST MK1 100 5.5 " YES THAT MEANS 1OO OUTPUTS.... ;D 200 ENDS...

ist

here is a pic of 50 strands of 28ga.. twisted 15 feet long I also added my rings ... 60 and 100

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 23, 2009, 03:58:06 AM

@gadgetmall, Pirate88179

Just for future reference, where should we measure the frequency of oscillations? ...I've been taking measurements across the collector and base as well as th collector and emitter.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on March 23, 2009, 04:53:15 AM

@ TheNOP

Quote back on P394 @Jadaro2600 and electricme
you gave me an idea about eddy current tapping.

You are welcome lol

@all, today I found a 2 foot diameter steel ring, half inch thick, 1 inch deep, had to leave it at the dump (I hided it because it was smoking, and too hot, heat wize, to put in the car), will go back tomorrow to get it.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 23, 2009, 06:37:55 AM

@All

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg139195#msg139195
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg151928#msg151928

again
what is the best toroid and what is your toroid frequency ? ;D

don't trow away those "bad" toroids yet. ^^

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on March 23, 2009, 07:01:45 AM

@ Jeanna, mainly, just because cause you posted the U beaut torid ha ha
but this is for all who read this post.

I gota idea again, all, ooooops, wooha, time to put the thinking caps back on, I throwing a curved one, lol

When reading this, please see the torid in the horizontal plane.

Your 3 axis torid idea has intregued me, we can excite a magnetic field by the bifilar winding, we can access this magnetic field by winding a wire coil vertically around and around the torid, but from my reading up on the magnetic fields, inside the torid, one magnetic field goes round and round in the horizontal plane, (this is the one we capture and work with presently) the other magnetic field goes at 90 degreese to the horizontal one.

In fact there are 2 seperate magnetic fields within the torid, and possibably there are 3.

The present windings we wind on the torid, harnesses only 1 magnetic field, the horozontal internal magnetic field.
(this can be made to flow in either direction continuously, or it can be made to oscillate backwards and forwards.

Right -O-, picture a present wound torid, either a Mk1 or Mk2 on the horozontal plane.

Idea 1
OK, so what would we get out of "another" coil, if it was wound on the outside circumference of the torid, over the present vertical windings? but at 90 degrees to the vertical wires?
Just go round and round the outside of the torid, number of turns, who knows? (told yha it will make you think).
Would it be able to capture the 2nd magnetic field which is rotating at 90 degreese to the horizontal magnetic field?
I don't know!!!!!!!

Idea 2
A third (3rd) coil could be wound and slopped inside the torids center
Would this work? again, I don't know.

Idea 3
Looking at the torid JPG, (Nassim Haramein's I think), I see there is presented a vertical vortex or cone which by its presentation gives me the impression that here is another magnetic field to be investigated.

Perhapse a wide long coil made, but no smaller than the center of the torid, could be wound in its axis length and held vertical to the center of the torid. Perhapse if this was a "double inverted cone" winding, it might work.
Picture two ice cream cones, placed point to point together.
The smaller points meet inside the center of the torid.
What happens? who knows, just another funny idea I have lol.

I have not tried this, all this just came to me, but it makes sence to me.

Every TV set which has a cathode tube, has the cone wound "yoke", so there must be something in this.

Very big thunder storms have "sprites", which is lightning energy, which appears to proceed from the top of the storm, going in the vertical direction heading out into space. Pilots have remarked about seeing this happen.

In my astronomy days, I came accross theories of jets putting out huge energy within torid shaped solar galaxies.

Im stuck way back on post 394

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on March 23, 2009, 08:01:35 AM

Quote from: jeanna on March 22, 2009, 10:35:17 PM
Interesting Hazens1,
This exact toroid is my worst performer. 104 rectified volts is way good.
The highest I got with this was 1.25V rectified. So, I put it away.

Did you stress it? Can you turn on a cfl? or a small ac motor? Or just,If you put a small load on it does it go way down?

You have connected these in a novel way, I think. I may just be tired, but to repeat it back to you, you have used 2 separate wires and connected them separately to the same connection points of a bjt. Is that right? These red and green wires are not connected to each other? They must be going in opposite directions, then. Is this correct?

Interesting.

thank you,

jeanna

The High Perm 1" with Red, Green and Gold was wound CCW into the center of the toroid. Green first 10 turns, then Red 10 turns, then the Gold 80 turns to fill left over space in toroid. I hooked up the Green End of wire to Positive, Red Start of wire to Positive. Kind of like a center tap. I'll test a little more with this core to get some more numbers. Stay tuned..

I also plan on making a video using the Green, Red and Gold wire to make a core and show the assembly of the entire circuit. Maybe this coming weekend..

TYGER

.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 23, 2009, 11:07:13 AM

im thinking of winding a second identical over the last one ...

i would expect a drop in voltage but ... im pretty sure we will have yet more output i will walk this dirrection ... next i will need to wind 3 more wires of 50 strands ...

we will see how this will go it actually was verry easy to do ..

so i need to work out the diodes yet i will drop it down to 2 diodes ... per output ... simply i will solder all 1 way on 1 side and all other way on the other side but i will require wire connections from both b4 the diodes .. so if i go with 200 output wires i will need 400 diodes and i will have 400 sepreat outputs each wire has to outputs .. ;)

ist!

getting NUTS NOW ...lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on March 23, 2009, 01:30:58 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 23, 2009, 03:58:06 AM
@gadgetmall, Pirate88179

Just for future reference, where should we measure the frequency of oscillations? ...I've been taking measurements across the collector and base as well as th collector and emitter.

Hi Jadaro2600 . Well I would think because we are concerned with the output frequency you would have to measure it on the collector to ground with a very high resistance so as to not upset the not so stable frequency of that Jt . Unless you are running a 555 to stabilize the frequency ..

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 23, 2009, 03:35:39 PM

@Electricme,

Thank you Jim for mentioning this 3 axis thing again.

I have a bag of inductors like the ones jadaro is using and I am thinking this is the way this 'dream' meant it. - That is that the vertical third axis would be in the middle.
It would probably radiate outwards at the ends in a conical shape by itself.

I don't know.

Today, I was planning to make a MK3. Since I want to keep all the wires straight (an old textile habit of mine!) I am adding one secondary wire at a time.

Maybe instead, I can try something with an inductor. Trouble is, I have never used those before, and that means there are a lot of unknowns added all at once.

@IST

You are making such beautiful coils. I really want to hear about the output.

Is there ever a time when the secondary/pickup gets weaker?

I think you do take measurements. Please divulge them!

thank you,

jeanna

ooo my o-scope just arrived. bbs

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 23, 2009, 07:48:07 PM

@jeanna

For the mag wire ends I burn off the enamel and then lightly scrape the wire. I then test them with my DMM to make sure there is continuity and that all looks perfect. I just got back from radio shack and plan to build a new JT on a Breadboard.

@ALL

Can someone please recommend a good Oscilloscope for projects such as this? I want to use it for other things as well. I plan on building a HHO generator and lots more. I have been looking at usb ones that are around $400 are there better ones out there for this type of work? I would like to keep the cost down to below 1 grand.

Thanks!!!!!!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on March 23, 2009, 08:25:35 PM

@all
I thought you Might be interested in these TOP SECRET :o Diagrams . I Can't tell you where they came from as the answer is I Don't Know . hope you can Duplicate them . We Will need them Shortly !Enjoy
the bottom pictorial is Near Unity
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 23, 2009, 08:27:03 PM

Hi everyone,
Well, I have never read a manual through even once. This time I read it through 2 1/2 times before I turned on my new hand held oscilloscope.

I cannot tell much yet. It certainly does work. If I put it on my fingers or temple or brain stem area I get different waveforms.

So, I sat down to gingerly test a jt. I was holding the secondary in my left hand and my right hand was holding the probe probably right at the tip and I saw a jt type of waveform. It was the skin effect being read by the machine. That is cool.

Then I put the probe directly onto and read the secondary and got a waveform

THEN, I changed body positions and saw the waveform again and realized I was holding the probe just over the center of the core of the toroid. It was not touching anything just hovering over the center of the core.

I then put the probe on the opposite side and the wave was still very spiky but different and it went in the opposite direction!

I need to read the manual a couple more times, I think, to find out how to freeze the frame it so I can study what I am seeing. Man, this is cool.

Altrez, this is $189 from allelectronics. It is made by Velleman. The one they sell at allelectronics is the slightly less fancy one, so you could find the one with the back light and the ability to send the info/screen to your pc. but this takes 5 AA'a and I think it is gonna do what I need. (as long as I can find my magnifying glass!) check it out.
@Altrez,
When you have the dmm probes on your secondary testing for continuity, don't you see a voltage too?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 23, 2009, 08:39:55 PM

@jeanna

I read no voltage on the pickup coil. Thanks for the advice on the O-Scope I will check them out :)

Thank you so much!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 23, 2009, 09:19:21 PM

@gadgetmall,

Interesting piece of work you've got there! What the heck is it?

@jeanna,

It's good to have one of those, I wish I could afford one that works with linux - my issue is with the frequency range of the devices.

I noticed that the toroids are sensitive - they whole oscillator is sensitive to temperature, etc. You should take readings at initial startup and after every minute for five minutes - it may give you a better overall result - I'm not sure what kind of documentation you do of your own work; this is just the scientific advice. :P

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 23, 2009, 09:46:30 PM

@ Gadgetmall:

Very interesting post. The main thing that jumped out at me is the term "Metglass". We, (My father's ceramic company) made the original nozzles for this process developed by Allied Chemical in Parisipanny, NJ. We made them hundreds of these nozzles and the process involved pouring molten metal onto a 15 foot diameter water cooled wheel. The metal instantly crystallized and formed an heretofore unknown metal with very unique electrical properties. This is the single reason that starters for vehicles, as well as alternators got about half the size and still put out the same, or more.

We used ultrasonic impact grinders to generate the very accurate slots required for these nozzles which were made from zirconia. We also had to machine some very accurate details using diamond surface grinders as well to allow them to mate with the machine. I used to have some strips of this stuff but, where it went, I have no idea.

Anyway, this brought back memories for me...thanks. Now I will go back and see if I understand anything else about it.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 23, 2009, 10:14:38 PM

Quote from: altrez on March 23, 2009, 08:39:55 PM
@jeanna

I read no voltage on the pickup coil. Thanks for the advice on the O-Scope I will check them out :)

Thank you so much!

I just had a thought.

Are you wrapping your secondary wires through the center of the loop? (like where your girlfriend is standing when she is dancing with the hulahoop.) I know the solution is simple. I got a led to light with just one loop through the center. It was brighter with 2 loops, so I recommend starting with 5 loops, but no more.

One other possibility... MK1 found there is a dead spot just opposite the place where the wires connect. I don't think it is dead enough for you to get nothing, but maybe...

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on March 24, 2009, 12:52:51 AM

@Jeanna,
A new scope? :) you have a new oscillope ;D , a hand held unit at that? ;D ;D
well well well, congrats to you jeanna. :P

You have waited for a long long time for this instrument, now the world of electronics is going to open up to you, be prepared for more questions it will produce, like, whats that squiggly line for, whats that long line going up and then down, ha ha. 8)
(I spend hours on scope time displays)
All the Ooooh's and the arrrrr's as you begin to understand the waveforms and what they mean lol.

Jeanna, I am so happy for you, I know it (mr scope) will take pride of place in your instrument bay or rack.

Do you have an adjustable power supply? (it can take the place of batteroes, it can even recharge batteries with a series light bulb).

Sometimes it is a struggle trying to understand what some electrical part is doing, especially if you carnt see the smoke, now you can see the smoke that makes the transister work, lol

Try this Jeanna, clip the black earth lead to the neg at the battery, then move the tip of the probe to the base of the OJ transister, you should be able to see the on and off pulses waveforms, ehhhhhaaaaa, the way to gooooo.
Try it before the resistor, then after the resistor.

Connect the probes to a loud speaker then speak into it, the waveform of your voice will be seen.

Warning, don't try High Voltage probeing, without a 10meg ohme resister in series with the probe itself, sometimes you might have to put a 20Mohm one there.

@ all
wisper, Someone has gota oscillope an they read the manual, 2 1/2 times good lasss. ha ha
Keep that manual close to you, you will need it constantly for a while.

@Jeanna, thing to remember is to always setup the trace on the middle line,(0volt probes not touching circuit) then work out your measurements from there, the trace will go upwards or downwards, you go by the division pattern on the scope and the Volts/Time Division scale, yours may also have a digital read out too.

Another thing to do is take the scope and a Joule thief to a electronic repair man/place, and ask them to show you and explain to you the waveforms etc etc.

jim
he's got a screw loose in the top paddock 2 day

@bill,
I went back and got my steel ring, it was still there, i'm in the process of steelbrushing the scale off it right now.

jim

a new scope, a new scope whacko, a new scope, a new scope, wonders will never cease, its going to get rather interresting from now on folks, a woman with a lot of scope is going a scopeing, lots of posts coming up hee hee hee, comon scopiiee, tell me whats happenning here, lol ;D
quiet jim, get back to study on post 400
;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 24, 2009, 01:13:35 AM

I made an interesting winding today - it's bifilar - twisted pair, wound all the way around, evenly spaced 28 winds of 26 gage wire around a ferrite toroid - electronics goldmine #g16332. I then wound a pickup coil on this, three winds in between each of the bifilar winds. As I said earlier, I'm getting junk results on these toroids so far - until now.

Well, basically, I removed the resistor entirely. The thing runs off of pure inductance flyback to the base. ...I apologize in advance for not including the specs - I'm fixing to hit the sack.

The transistor is not overheating - if it was, then it would overheat with the resistor there in the first place, there's a big red line where I removed the resistor. Circuit diagram is included in the post with a picture.

Led on the right is running off the pickup coil, there's a large capacitor on the left that read 40v when the circuit is unloaded.

There is no neon in this picture despit it being in the diagram - it's a non essential path.

Mk1 is right, @ jeanna, btw, less is more, but this is with regard to his setups - I'm just looking for weird phenomenon when I prototype. This one is what i've been looking for when it comes to weirdness - I seem to have gotten the flyback voltage to trigger the base - as potential flows in from positive to the collector through the inductance, the flyback trigger the base, and it automatically turns on, ..so, the flyback is what's cutting the thing on in the first place - the capacitor is there to keep a little charge in the system.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on March 24, 2009, 05:59:45 AM

@all
How Do I Upload A Video To U Tube

I just recorded a item on TV channel SBS on the 24th March 2009 using my video camera.

It is 113megs in size.

It is about Ocean Polluting with 6 tons of iron, you can see it flowing through a tube
the aim is to force algae blooming in the oceans

Aerisols Spraying.

These people also want to cover a thousand miles of oceans with stuff,

close up of aerosol spraying using prop lo altitude planes.
U can see it being prepared.

If I can convert it from MOV to a smaller file I would try this first

But I need to know how eo make the 113meg file smaller if possible.

Bill or Gadget, any pointers please

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on March 24, 2009, 06:40:47 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on March 23, 2009, 08:25:35 PM
@all
I thought you Might be interested in these TOP SECRET :o Diagrams . I Can't tell you where they came from as the answer is I Don't Know . hope you can Duplicate them . We Will need them Shortly !Enjoy
the bottom pictorial is Near Unity
Gadget

Interesting pics there Gadget :)

Seems a little odd to me though... First of all, is this claimed to be over, under, of "near" unity?
The text on the pics suggests different things...
Second, this seems like a very rough MEG variation or something similar... It is easy to see
that the basic concept here is that permanent magnets are used to provide a permanent
magnetostatic field, and the L1&2 coils are intended to pulse that field, which should result
in a fluctuating magnetic field at the collector coils and these should produce output pulses...
But since induced current is (according to established theory) a result of the change of the
magnetic field strength and/or polarity, the magnetostatic field of the permanent magnets
should not really add anything to this amount of change of field strength since all the change
is produced by L1&2 and not at all by the magnets... So one would expect to see fairly normal
transformer action as long as the input pulses to L1&2 are fed correctly.

I have pondered such variations for a long time and this is almost exactly one of the variations
I have considered. Not the most promising one, I must say.
I still have a slightly different design that is also intended to use a permanent magnet for flux source
but the core is shaped quite differently.
To drop a hint, I think we want to be able to reroute the flux path in such a way that the collector
coil(s) really sees the field "flip over" periodically. This cannot be done in a single loop core,
it needs a special double loop core with control coils to induce the "flipping over".
But that is still an experiment I want to perform. I just have some trouble obtaining the right
core elements. I need several U-cores and one or two I-cores too, and I can only find very
expensive new ones to order so the experiment is on pause untill I find some cheap ones
(or hit the lottery).

Kind regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 24, 2009, 07:00:55 AM

@jeanna

I am not sure exactly what you mean by center of the loop? Is the loop the toroid? I asked my wife to grab the hula-hoop out of the closet to help me figure this out. She looked at me a bit odd and then agreed. After watching her demo the hula-hoop dance I forgot what I was doing and umm we went to bed :)

What is the loop? I have wrapped my pickup coil through the center of the toroid like I wired up the main circuit.

Thank you so much!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gyulasun on March 24, 2009, 07:17:57 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on March 23, 2009, 08:25:35 PM
@all
I thought you Might be interested in these TOP SECRET :o Diagrams . I Can't tell you where they came from as the answer is I Don't Know . hope you can Duplicate them . We Will need them Shortly !Enjoy
the bottom pictorial is Near Unity
Gadget

Hi Gadget,

From the pictures I recall Bill Alek's SmartPACK projects done in 2002 - 2005 era, see some links on that:

http://www.intalek.com/Papers/Handout3.pdf this includes the schematics you uploaded...

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=445.0

http://www.zpenergy.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1460

http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/Organizations/Intalek/index.html

Bill claimed a COP of 1.2-1.3 for his SmartPACK device... To my best knowledge, nobody replicated it yet, at least I have not seen any further report on it. And Bill took down the SmartPACK topic from his website.

Bill is also a member here as Doctor Whodini http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=4202.60;topicseen

rgds, Gyula

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gyulasun on March 24, 2009, 07:35:42 AM

Quote from: gyulasun on March 24, 2009, 07:17:57 AM

... And Bill took down the SmartPACK topic from his website.

Bill is also a member here as Doctor Whodini http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=4202.60;topicseen

rgds, Gyula

Here is what internet archive wayback machine found on his SmartPACK page:

http://web.archive.org/web/20050721082438/http://www.intalek.com/Index/Projects/SmartPAK/SmartPAK.htm

This is his main page at present: http://www.intalek.com/Index/Index.htm

rgds, Gyula

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on March 24, 2009, 08:36:13 AM

@ALL >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(

URGENT you download and save this item and get it out to be seen world wide.

POISEN SEAS POISEN SEAS POISEN SEAS

What is Poisen Seas? go and take a look at this site, I don't have the means to record it, its in a different format unfortunatly

If you know how to save this to your HD, I think it a good idea to do so, then put it with the Chemtrail stuff before this is pulled off the SBS news.

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/1012836/Can-nature-help-us-combat-climate-change?

I thought we only had a problem with the atmosphere, we also have a HUGE problem with the Earths OCEANS.

I just discovered this tonight.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: timmy1729 on March 24, 2009, 08:55:55 AM

@All
Just letting you know I'm still alive. I've been way busy and when I wasn't busy, I was too exhausted from being busy :P
Some really cool person gave me a giant microwave through FreeCycle. I'm going to dismantle that behemoth and get the transformer and other parts out of it.

On my other experiment I took my small dc motor and hooked it in series between my battery and transformer. I use a 4 AA battery holder with 4 AA batteries. That produces some wicked voltage. Then I ran from the transformer into a rectifier and put a diode pointing out from the + of the rectifier. Then I put a 330v 120uF(I think) cap from a disposable camera across the diode and - of the rectifier. That ended up increasing the 6v to 300+ vdc. Although, by the time the voltage got that high, the amp reading was so low that it wouldn't even register on my multimeter. But it produces one awesome spark when I short out the cap :-)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on March 24, 2009, 09:04:55 AM

Quote from: gyulasun on March 24, 2009, 07:17:57 AM
Hi Gadget,

From the pictures I recall Bill Alek's SmartPACK projects done in 2002 - 2005 era, see some links on that:

http://www.intalek.com/Papers/Handout3.pdf this includes the schematics you uploaded...

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=445.0

http://www.zpenergy.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1460

http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/Organizations/Intalek/index.html

Bill claimed a COP of 1.2-1.3 for his SmartPACK device... To my best knowledge, nobody replicated it yet, at least I have not seen any further report on it. And Bill took down the SmartPACK topic from his website.

Bill is also a member here as Doctor Whodini http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=4202.60;topicseen

rgds, Gyula

Hi . Thank you for the link . I really didn't know where the pictures came from they are some harvested from a Picture plucker i have that feeds them in a directory of every site i ever visited . Its an Interesting Concept using Magnets and air gaps . etc.. This could be replicated easily with a a big toroid cut in half with some bar magnets.. Its the Signals i don't get . I would assume it need an ac signal of some sorts to make it work OU . Never the less It appears to look somewhat Like a magnetic amplifier that Mk1 was trying to Show us.. Take care

@ Electricme . Hi Jim . you tube wont take that file if its over 10 mins.. Google will but you have to sign up with them . same with you tube . Youtube is censoring a Lot of videos and Killing accounts and Videos like the one you are talking about . They want to Hide it from the Public .we are not supposed to know about chem trails ,poison seas Fema camps Rex 84 NWO and the Likes . They want us Dumb Like we are ;) some of us anyways see Thinks Different Just Like some see Christ as Their savior Like Me and Some see the Devil as theirs .. God Bless . I will Try an Snag it .. Put it up for the Ones that open there eyes..
BTW . Cant wait to see yore Extra Big smokin ring :)

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on March 24, 2009, 09:10:10 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 24, 2009, 01:13:35 AM
I made an interesting winding today - it's bifilar - twisted pair, wound all the way around, evenly spaced 28 winds of 26 gage wire around a ferrite toroid - electronics goldmine #g16332. I then wound a pickup coil on this, three winds in between each of the bifilar winds. As I said earlier, I'm getting junk results on these toroids so far - until now.

Well, basically, I removed the resistor entirely. The thing runs off of pure inductance flyback to the base. ...I apologize in advance for not including the specs - I'm fixing to hit the sack.

The transistor is not overheating - if it was, then it would overheat with the resistor there in the first place, there's a big red line where I removed the resistor. Circuit diagram is included in the post with a picture.

Led on the right is running off the pickup coil, there's a large capacitor on the left that read 40v when the circuit is unloaded.

There is no neon in this picture despit it being in the diagram - it's a non essential path.

Mk1 is right, @ jeanna, btw, less is more, but this is with regard to his setups - I'm just looking for weird phenomenon when I prototype. This one is what i've been looking for when it comes to weirdness - I seem to have gotten the flyback voltage to trigger the base - as potential flows in from positive to the collector through the inductance, the flyback trigger the base, and it automatically turns on, ..so, the flyback is what's cutting the thing on in the first place - the capacitor is there to keep a little charge in the system.

Thank you @jadaro !

Looking at your joule thief circuit modification I see that it is like the bedini ssg main circuit without a resistor and a diode.
That gives me a good idea to resucitate my Joule Thief Pulse Motor.

I have a question though. The pick up coil has a label 3:1. Does that mean that there is a bifilar wind that is 3 winds for each 1? Or it is just saying that you added three turns?

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on March 24, 2009, 09:46:45 AM

Did someone say High Permiability Toroids suck? Well, take a look at this.

Toroid: http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16332 (http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16332) - Fair-Rite Products Corp type 5975001301 high permeability ferrite toroid features 75 (ui = 5000) material. Size is 25.4mm (1" outer dia.), 15.5mm (0.61" inner dia.), and 6.35mm (0.25") Thick. AL(nH) = 3140. Weighs 9.6 grams.

Wire: http://www.gobrushless.com/shop/index.php?app=ccp0&ns=prodshow&ref=MW-26G-XXX-KR (http://www.gobrushless.com/shop/index.php?app=ccp0&ns=prodshow&ref=MW-26G-XXX-KR) - Our 26 AWG magnet wire with DBHPN (double-build heavy poly-nylon) insulation helps to reduce the possibility of electrical shorts when winding your motor. Available in gold, green, and red so you can wind each of the 3 phases of your stator with a different color. This helps reduce the odds of incorrectly winding your stator, as well as gives it a unique look. These kit rolls contain approximately 24 ft.

Base Coil(Green): 10 Turn
Collector Coil(Red): 10 Turn
Pickup Coil(Gold): 80 Turn
Transistor: 2n2222 NPN
Resistor: 1K Ohm 1/4 Watt
Rectifier: 600v 1a Chip Style
Battery: Polaroid 2100mah 1.2v Rechargeable

I'm getting 211 volts rectified from a 75ma battery draw with no load. As load is added to the circuit, the ma draw on the battery drops. With 12 ultra bright LEDs in series on the pickup coil, the draw drops to 60ma. Fully charged, the battery could last 24+ hours at this draw. I could push it more, but I don't want to burn the Transistor. Perhaps I'll try a bigger Transistor and see. Edit: (I tried a TIP31 NPN transistor with 500 ohm resistor to get 235v rectified on 1 AA and 340v rectified on 2 AA.) The toroid vibrates when a load is put on the pickup coil. I can feel the change with my fingers when I turn it on and off. It sings a quiet, very high note also when loaded.

I'm going to make the same wind on the lower permiability 1 inch core I got from Goldmine and compare the results.

TYGER

.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 24, 2009, 10:30:39 AM

hazens1

verry nice...

your coil is wound sooooooooo nice ...

great job !!

im adding diodes to my big coil i will do some tests ..

ist!

love the tool box ;)

got spin!?!?!?! lol

so i bought thease switching diodes a little while ago ... at RS they come in a 50 pac for 4$ #1n914 type diodes ....

http://www.oup.com/us/pdf/microcircuits/students/diode/1N914B_philip.pdf

theres the specs...

was thinking i might use thease cuz there cheep highspeed and can handle 100v and up to 225ma each :o lol

so i got a quick mod i will do to the diode to allow just 1 solder per wire and i will have out wire and diode out ... bend it!! lol

and the other side ill do it the other way ...

for my latest coil i will finish in the next few days ... i would need 2 pacs of 50 per wire .. x 4 wires ... so yea 8 pacs ... x50 and each pac gives 100 ends ... ;D :o

sounds like work ....

but .. i have done similar in the past in this thred .... so i know it will work fine ... ;) i will then gang them to 1 BIG BRIDGE AND BATCAP!! IT ;)

invertor and your pannel ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 24, 2009, 01:30:46 PM

Quote from: hazens1 on March 24, 2009, 09:46:45 AM
Did someone say High Permiability Toroids suck? Well, take a look at this.

.

OK, I will try it again. I was working in a different direction when I wound mine, and I may have done the exactly opposite thing I wanted to get good results.

I did buy 2 and I am glad I didn't toss the other! ( :) fat chance, I never toss anything)

So, I will add this to my list and even have a look with my new scope.
---
EDIT ADD:
@Hazens,
There is a good possibility that you do not need 10 turns bifilar to perform the inverter function. You could maybe get away with as little as 3 up and 3 down. then your secondary would give you a very high voltage output.

I will try this myself today.
---

BTW scopers,

Jim guessed dBv had to do with decibels, which is the only thing I could think of too. Is there anyone out there who knows?

There are 3 output forms. dB and dBv and dBm plus the ability to set a user defined dBref.

From the manual, this may be a clue:
dBVmeasurement (dBV ac)The measured ac signal is converted to dBV (0dB=1V)
and also
dBm measurement (dBm ac) The measured ac signal is converted to dBm (0dBm=0.775V)

What the heck does this mean?
Is it really taking so much trouble to convert the signal to loudness of sound? I don't get it!

thank you,

jeanna

@hazens and ist,
if you change the word inside the tags from red to yellow it is much easier to read and actually looks like a highlighted word.
like this:
hard to read
just as hard to read
easy to read - right?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: ScienceMan on March 24, 2009, 01:44:28 PM

Hi JT people

Have been caught up with exams and numerous projects for school and I have been off the JT subject for a while (not that I was here on this thread much before) .. but now I'm back at it.

@Hazens...

Absolutely awesome coil you got there --> wound so nicely. I think I might make the same one as you have described there after a small JT (plans from other people) just to get the feel for it... 211V rect. pretty cool! ;D

ScienceMan

Edit: Hazens... Where is the load on this circuit? and when you say you are drawing 75mA - what is drawing that?

ScienceMan

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 24, 2009, 03:55:22 PM

Quote from: ScienceMan on March 24, 2009, 01:44:28 PM
.. but now I'm back at it.

Edit: Hazens... Where is the load on this circuit? and when you say you are drawing 75mA - what is drawing that?

Hi scienceman,
Good question what is taking the draw?
Perhaps hazens will answer later. I may be able to answer it partially, for now, though.

The transistor draws something - sometimes it draws more without a led than with one. 75mA seems high for just the transistor but that high permeability threw my results. It was very different from the others.

OK back to the wind.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 24, 2009, 06:15:30 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on March 24, 2009, 09:10:10 AM
Thank you @jadaro !

Looking at your joule thief circuit modification I see that it is like the bedini ssg main circuit without a resistor and a diode.
That gives me a good idea to resucitate my Joule Thief Pulse Motor.

I have a question though. The pick up coil has a label 3:1. Does that mean that there is a bifilar wind that is 3 winds for each 1? Or it is just saying that you added three turns?

Jesus

This means that for every bifilar wind, there are three winds of the pickup coil. However, I think it's behaving in such a way that ( since there is more coming off the collector coil ) the device should run the same without a pickup coil.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 24, 2009, 06:17:55 PM

Quote from: electricme on March 24, 2009, 08:36:13 AM
@ALL >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(

URGENT you download and save this item and get it out to be seen world wide.

POISEN SEAS POISEN SEAS POISEN SEAS

What is Poisen Seas? go and take a look at this site, I don't have the means to record it, its in a different format unfortunatly

If you know how to save this to your HD, I think it a good idea to do so, then put it with the Chemtrail stuff before this is pulled off the SBS news.

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/1012836/Can-nature-help-us-combat-climate-change?

I thought we only had a problem with the atmosphere, we also have a HUGE problem with the Earths OCEANS.

I just discovered this tonight.

jim

...let's just hope that duckweed doesn't find a way to grow in salt water.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 24, 2009, 06:30:31 PM

IST

How big are the toriods you are using ?

I need some bigger ones ........do you have a link for the ones you have been using?

I remember you saying something about using MOSFETS for a big JT
Have you got a JT working with a MOSFET ?
I have played with it a little .........but didn't get it working.

A comment I got about using MOSFETS for JT is that they arn't needed .
I agree ..........but I also WANT to use them .

The MOSFETS I got to try making JTs with are 2n7000

any tips ?

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on March 24, 2009, 07:06:13 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 24, 2009, 06:15:30 PM
This means that for every bifilar wind, there are three winds of the pickup coil. However, I think it's behaving in such a way that ( since there is more coming off the collector coil ) the device should run the same without a pickup coil.

Thank you @jadaro !

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on March 24, 2009, 07:29:18 PM

Quote from: ScienceMan on March 24, 2009, 01:44:28 PM
@Hazens...

Absolutely awesome coil you got there --> wound so nicely. I think I might make the same one as you have described there after a small JT (plans from other people) just to get the feel for it... 211V rect. pretty cool! ;D

ScienceMan

Edit: Hazens... Where is the load on this circuit? and when you say you are drawing 75mA - what is drawing that?

ScienceMan

Thanks!

That is the draw with no load. Any load put on the pickup coil causes the amp draw to drop. The more I load it, the more the amp draw drops. I wish I had some led string lights to test with. I tried an unmodified CFL with a very faint flickering of the bulb. I don't have any spares to cannabalize to try straight to the tube. I can drop the load on the battery to 10ma by upping the resistor to a 10k ohm and I still get 80v rectified. When I tune the coil for best voltage using a pot set to about 500 ohm I get 235v and you can clearly hear the toroid singing. I tried 2 AA rechargeables in series for about 2.5v input and I I got 340v rectified using a TIP31 Transistor with a 125ma no load draw on the battery. Still have lots to try. Still need to compare the other toroid with the same wind. Once I decide which toroid I like the best, I'm going to try different winds. So much to do, so little time...

@jeanna
I'll try modifying the turns when I get a chance to see what happens. I have 2 of those toroids as well as 5 of the others.

TYGER

.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pardon on March 24, 2009, 07:36:32 PM

Hello @all I was just wondering if anyone has tried to use either a 150 Lumens 4 w led or a 100 Lumens 3 w led with a JT.

also i just salvaged a real nice green toroid from a pwr suply. works without rewinding but i may wind it the mk1 way.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 24, 2009, 09:40:23 PM

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

@ALL

Success!!! I got the Pickup coil to work FINALLY!!!! Once I put it on my breadboard and took the time to test EVERY part of the circuit it worked perfect! I have a BIG list of THANK YOU'S to EVERYONE who helped me.

Thank you @jeanna @MK1 @TheNOP @jadaro2600 @electricme @Pirate88179 @slayer007 and for all the people I left out I am sorry I will go back and check all the posts and add your name.

One thing I did notice is that the transistor gets HOT is that normal for the 2n3904?

I will post pics soon. I am so happy! I am not sure what I was doing wrong before as it would always light an LED but now it lights the LED at least 20 times brighter! From a PICKUP COIL! :):):)

THANKS!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 24, 2009, 09:50:34 PM

Beautiful job.

No, the transistor should not get hot. (tell her to put the hulahoop away for a while! ;D )

Maybe you should raise the resistor value. Part of its function there in between the transistor base and the base winding is to protect the transistor. If it is in the right place and the resistor is 1k, I dunno. Mine never get hot. corse it is chilly where I live. (the air in the room is a heat sink.)

congratulations!!!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 24, 2009, 10:02:18 PM

Quote from: altrez on March 24, 2009, 09:40:23 PM
One thing I did notice is that the transistor gets HOT is that normal for the 2n3904?

what is your base resistor ?
you might want to use a more resistive one and/or use a heat sink if the heat become an issue

Quote from: altrez on March 24, 2009, 09:40:23 PM
now it lights the LED at least 20 times brighter! From a PICKUP COIL! :):):)

be carefull not to blow it/them out.
adjust the voltage by removing turns on the pickup coil or add more leds in series until it match your output voltage.

ex: 3 volts for single led or multiple leds in parallel.
9 volts for 3 leds in series or multiple 3 leds in series in parallel.

you can also add more pickup coils tune to the voltage you need

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pardon on March 24, 2009, 10:14:41 PM

Iwas just looking arround and found this interesting thing

With PR4402 PREMA Semiconductor offers the next IC in a family of 0.9V LED boost drivers, operating white LEDs from one battery cell. While PR4401 is best suited for LED currents of up to 20mA, PR4402 is capable of 40mA. The current is set by the inductor value, resulting in a low number of external components. Applications are pocket torches, key ring pendants or head lights and LCD back lighting in single-cell devices like MP3 players.

The one-cell battery operation is very attractive. It allows design of smaller and light weighted products at lower cost. In multiple-cell operation of rechargeable batteries often one cell can be destroyed by a deep discharge. With the PR4401/4402 there is no more reason for using several battery cells or for implementing the classical light bulb. With one battery cell and depending on the application one inductor only as external component, a very small-sized circuitry can be realized with the PR4401/4402, both SOT23 packaged. The driven LED current is almost independent from the supply voltage, which guarantees a constant brightness even with a discharging battery.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 24, 2009, 10:27:01 PM

Altrez:

Great job! These things are great once you get them to work, and now that you have...there will be no stopping you. Way to go!

@ Pardon:

Great find there. Am I mistaken or is this a kind of solid state joule thief? If it is, I wonder how its efficiency compares to some of the ones we have here? Possibly someone else knows more about this than I, which would not be hard to do. Thanks for bringing this to our attention.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 24, 2009, 11:41:29 PM

@Pardon,
Interesting find. I think this backs up what we are doing. Whoknows maybe it is one of us? I am glad to see it. Sometimes, for inventors the hardest thing is to stop long enough to bring something to market. good for them.

@All,
I am charging the batteries for the scope... so

I pulled the precision pot out of the bag and tuned my MK2.
It was going along fine then the LED blew.
oops
I forgot to take it out! oh well, the voltage kept going up to 26.3V rectified shown on the bridge.

The resistor ended up being 204ohm. (I may start again at the high end.) If I find another sweet spot, I will report.

The part I forgot to change before I did this was the 2 wires of one pickup side in on the breadboard in parallel. I guess the amps must have blown the led. I don't think it got too close before, or maybe I wasn't able to hold that precise resistance amount long enough to blow the light before. oh well. another day another dollar, as they say. Too bad it really is a dollar to replace these things.

I did get some 65centers from allelectronics to try. They are not as bright but really ok. I think 4 or 5 in a cluster going in different directions inside an old frosted bulb may look pretty bright. Well, that is down the road a bit.

So, to recap this calamitous report
2N3904
MK2 wound primary 4T,5T pickups as follows:12 up 13 down on one side of primary, 12 up 13 down on other side. (so 25 each)
and using all 4 pickups, but 2 sets of each from a side lighting leds and
204 ohm base resistor
Rectified volts 26.3V - can only check one at a time.
Amps draw without lights 29.7mA
Amps draw on 2^o with light that blew 43mA
Amps draw on whole ckt with all secondaries and 2 lights 27.6mA
as you can imagine the lights are blazing (until they blow ;D)

This is not yet enough for a cfl, but it is getting there!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on March 25, 2009, 12:01:20 AM

Quote from: Pardon on March 24, 2009, 10:14:41 PM
Iwas just looking arround and found this interesting thing

With PR4402 PREMA Semiconductor offers the next IC in a family of 0.9V LED boost drivers, operating white LEDs from one battery cell. While PR4401 is best suited for LED currents of up to 20mA, PR4402 is capable of 40mA. The current is set by the inductor value, resulting in a low number of external components. Applications are pocket torches, key ring pendants or head lights and LCD back lighting in single-cell devices like MP3 players.

The one-cell battery operation is very attractive. It allows design of smaller and light weighted products at lower cost. In multiple-cell operation of rechargeable batteries often one cell can be destroyed by a deep discharge. With the PR4401/4402 there is no more reason for using several battery cells or for implementing the classical light bulb. With one battery cell and depending on the application one inductor only as external component, a very small-sized circuitry can be realized with the PR4401/4402, both SOT23 packaged. The driven LED current is almost independent from the supply voltage, which guarantees a constant brightness even with a discharging battery.

Hi . I saw these a few months back . they are very inefficiant . As you can see in the forum here we are running 10,000 mcd Leds with .0.20 milliamps at .20 volts off a JT ..

Gadget //

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on March 25, 2009, 12:13:04 AM

Quote from: jeanna on March 24, 2009, 11:41:29 PM
@Pardon,
Interesting find. I think this backs up what we are doing. Whoknows maybe it is one of us? I am glad to see it. Sometimes, for inventors the hardest thing is to stop long enough to bring something to market. good for them.

@All,
I am charging the batteries for the scope... so

I pulled the precision pot out of the bag and tuned my MK2.
It was going along fine then the LED blew.
oops
I forgot to take it out! oh well, the voltage kept going up to 26.3V rectified shown on the bridge.

The resistor ended up being 204ohm. (I may start again at the high end.) If I find another sweet spot, I will report.

The part I forgot to change before I did this was the 2 wires of one pickup side in on the breadboard in parallel. I guess the amps must have blown the led. I don't think it got too close before, or maybe I wasn't able to hold that precise resistance amount long enough to blow the light before. oh well. another day another dollar, as they say. Too bad it really is a dollar to replace these things.

I did get some 65centers from allelectronics to try. They are not as bright but really ok. I think 4 or 5 in a cluster going in different directions inside an old frosted bulb may look pretty bright. Well, that is down the road a bit.

So, to recap this calamitous report
2N3904
MK2 wound primary 4T,5T pickups as follows:12 up 13 down on one side of primary, 12 up 13 down on other side. (so 25 each)
and using all 4 pickups, but 2 sets of each from a side lighting leds and
204 ohm base resistor
Rectified volts 26.3V - can only check one at a time.
Amps draw without lights 29.7mA
Amps draw on 2^o with light that blew 43mA
Amps draw on whole ckt with all secondaries and 2 lights 27.6mA
as you can imagine the lights are blazing (until they blow ;D)

This is not yet enough for a cfl, but it is getting there!

jeanna

Hello Jeanna . Yea after Blowing every white led i had practically i decided to hook up a few strings of 200 white leds on my mk2 . Its lights them Bright .! But im sad cause i blew My Daughters Jewel Thief so im working on another one . Dont try to run another Jt with an led with mk2. it will flash like a camera flash.

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 25, 2009, 12:57:23 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on March 25, 2009, 12:13:04 AM
But im sad cause i blew My Daughters Jewel Thief so im working on another one . Dont try to run another Jt with an led with mk2. it will flash like a camera flash.

Gadget

Good advice. Thanks. I might not have paid much attention to tonight's misadventure.

You BLEW your daughter's joule thief with a MK2??? Is that what you just said?

Too bad it doesn't have quite enough to light a fluoro. I tried it on my 7w 10 inch fluro and it didn't budge it. I guess a cap is the necessary part for this. Maybe a MK2 is enough with a cap.

Here is the problem I had with the MK2.

I could get the 2 pick-ups from each side to work in parallel. But when I tried to add the others they went out...or the led went out ... There could have been shorts, but I didn't see any... come to think of it maybe the led was trying to blow then? hmm.

When I tried to put them in series, I just got nothing.

I am next going to try making something like what Hazens made today but with some slightly different numbers, and by tuning the toroid in the beginning.

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 25, 2009, 03:14:30 AM

LEDs can not handle high reverse voltages. If you always use two LEDs in parallel with opposite directions, then they will be able to handle larger reverse voltages since one of them will always be forward biased and thus limit the reverse voltage on the otter one.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 25, 2009, 04:31:23 AM

re:

Quote from: xee2 on March 25, 2009, 03:14:30 AM
LEDs can not handle high reverse voltages. If you always use two LEDs in parallel with opposite directions, then they will be able to handle larger reverse voltages since one of them will always be forward biased and thus limit the reverse voltage on the otter one.

@all,

Is it safe to assume that a bridge rectifier can handle higher voltages than it's single part - for instance, the forward voltage max is 400v but the reverse voltage breakdown is 200v, ..if I have 4 of these on a 300v AC source configured in as a bridge rectifier - can it be assumed that the diodes will be able to take the heat - Isn't the current and voltage prone to flow in the path of least resistance?

I consider this on topic because of the nature of pickup coils in these setups, and the tendency for large surges to be created.

@jeanna, how is that oscilloscope working out?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 25, 2009, 05:15:08 AM

@ jadaro2600

Full wave rectifier has current flowing through two diodes in series at a time thus will be OK if peak voltage is twice diode rating. Peak to peak voltage can be four times diode rating.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on March 25, 2009, 06:55:10 AM

@all,
I got a surprise he he he he he

A tiny ring
its Georgious
its lovely
its a gem
its a joule.....will it MAGNIFYYYYYYYY
should I put 3 JT in 1/3rd spacing?
How many secondaries should I put on this thingi?
will it workkkkkkk.
will it GRUNT lol

and,,,,,,, I got a ..................................potty , now I'm crackers ROFL

all is not as it seems

ha ha
jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on March 25, 2009, 08:48:09 AM

Cheezes Jim, that's one huge ring core you found there! ;D

With that much space to play with, I'd try a fullblown 2-phase Tesla
toroid... So that's at least 2 seperate sets of 2 oppositely placed coils,
each set wired in series and both sets fed an input AC signal that is
90 degrees out of phase, so as to produce a rotation of the two
magnetic poles in the ring core. Then use two sets of secondaries or
"pickup coils", also consisting of oppositely placed coils, one set
connected in series and the other connected like the JT primaries.
But yeah, how to get the 90 degree off phase? Idunno.

If you're "just" going for JT action... Well I suppose you could
wrap several basic JTs and use them at the same time...
But I'd expect the result to be the same as what you'd get when you'd
just use a higher input voltage and current in a single JT primary.
You do have a lot more room for "pickup" coils on that toilet-sized
core, so you could of course wind a crazy huge number of turns
for a pickup coil and get crazy high voltage out...
A 10 turn JT fed 1V with a 10.000 turn pickup should give out nice
1000V pulses, if all goes well ;)

regards,
Koen

P.S. does anyone have or know a cheap source of ferrite U- and I-cores?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on March 25, 2009, 09:01:47 AM

Quote from: Pardon on March 24, 2009, 10:14:41 PM
Iwas just looking arround and found this interesting thing

With PR4402 PREMA Semiconductor offers the next IC in a family of 0.9V LED boost drivers, operating white LEDs from one battery cell. While PR4401 is best suited for LED currents of up to 20mA, PR4402 is capable of 40mA. The current is set by the inductor value, resulting in a low number of external components. Applications are pocket torches, key ring pendants or head lights and LCD back lighting in single-cell devices like MP3 players.

The one-cell battery operation is very attractive. It allows design of smaller and light weighted products at lower cost. In multiple-cell operation of rechargeable batteries often one cell can be destroyed by a deep discharge. With the PR4401/4402 there is no more reason for using several battery cells or for implementing the classical light bulb. With one battery cell and depending on the application one inductor only as external component, a very small-sized circuitry can be realized with the PR4401/4402, both SOT23 packaged. The driven LED current is almost independent from the supply voltage, which guarantees a constant brightness even with a discharging battery.

this was mentioned back on page 6 of this thread. see my post http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg141252#msg141252
in response to spinners at the top of the page.
newer is not always better. the chip requires 25mA. so, all the technology in the world has not surpassed a hand-made circuit.
great to see you doing research on it though. ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 25, 2009, 11:27:02 AM

say iaiii yiaiii boom !!

lol

so got my big ring running ... sure i fired the scope up

if you touch the outputs ... you FEEL IT ... ;D 8)

with out any diodes ..... ;)

i have been able to see a few hundred volts on my scope ... the thing sings with or without a load tranny or not tranny the thing SINGGGGGSSSS LOL

i can see sparks if i short it ... small ones but i C EM

jim YOUR NUTS LOL you gonna split the 3 jt? so you got 6 pushers ... and drop collectors in between them ?!?!?!?! ;D

william

so next i need a BATCAP!! ;D

i will add diodes today and scope it and MAKE YOU FINE PEOPLE A VIDEO ... ;)

CAREFUL WITH THIS UNIT IT BLOWS THINGS UP ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Paul-R on March 25, 2009, 11:45:03 AM

Quote from: Pardon on March 24, 2009, 10:14:41 PM
I was just looking arround and found this interesting thing

With PR4402 PREMA Semiconductor offers the next IC in a family of 0.9V LED boost drivers, operating white LEDs from one battery cell.

I found this datasheet for you:
http://www.prema.com/pdf/pr4401.pdf
Paul.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: ScienceMan on March 25, 2009, 02:20:44 PM

@Ist

A few hundred volts - thats alot. Nice

@Hazens

Quote from: hazens1 on March 24, 2009, 07:29:18 PM
That is the draw with no load.

Ok cool

Quote from: hazens1 on March 24, 2009, 07:29:18 PM
Any load put on the pickup coil causes the amp draw to drop. The more I load it, the more the amp draw drops.

Ah thats the amazing thing behind the JT coil... wow! ;D So it has a similar effect as the Bedini motor or radiant energy (correct me if I'm wrong)... Awesome...

@All

So does the JT have something to do with radiant energy?

Thanks

ScienceMan

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: AbbaRue on March 25, 2009, 03:27:05 PM

@electricme
You need to rub that large metal ring with a strong magnet and make sure it doesn't stay magnetized.
If it stays magnetized it won't work as a transformer core.

@gadgetmall
After seeing your post #4234 with the picture of that magnet coil configuration.
It reminds me of Tom Beardens MEG.
Then I took another look at the MEG. and couldn't help but think about replacing the 2 control coils with JT windings.
I also came up with the idea of using 2 microwave fan motors to make a MEG.
Just hacksaw the section flat were the rotor is inserted on one of the motors and remove that section completely from the other.
The stack of magnets can be inserted were the rotor used to be and JT windings can be placed around the cores.
Probably would want a higher power transistor for the JT circuit though.
And who says the JT has to run on a 1.5 volt battery.
Add more windings and it can use a much higher voltage battery.
8 times the windings should work with a 12 volt battery.

@All
I just think it might be time for some to take the next step with the JT and try building a power supply to run larger things.
And the MEG may be the way to go. Mk1's coil setups have many characteristics of a MEG. Just need the magnets.

@MK1
Have you tried placing a stack of neo. mags. across the inside of your toroidals were you have the 180 deg. split.
IF you do that it should function just like a MEG. Take another look at the MEG.

http://www.cheniere.org/megstatus.htm

The only difference between your toroidals and the MEG is the MEG uses 2 U shape cores, and a toroidal is 2 half circles.
Or did you leave that gap in your toroidal setups just for this very purpose down the road?
Theoretically the toroidal transformer should work even better. (It's an easy Mod for anyone to try)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: AbbaRue on March 25, 2009, 03:59:58 PM

@MK1
Sorry I missed your post #974 were you said you were building a small MEG. (found it today)

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.970

I kept coming across posts were you mentioned using a magnet but it never sunk in that you were using it to make a small MEG. :-[
This thread is so large it's very easy to miss a page with key points on it.
Summing things up how well is it working?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 25, 2009, 04:07:48 PM

Scienceman

As far as I can see no radiant energy has been shown from a JT .............yet
It looks like it is a combination of capturing the spikes caused by the magnetic field collapsing and transformer action .

Does anyone have a link for a larger toroid that works well ?

I want make a bigger JT ........not toilet sized yet .........but bigger than a normal toroid .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 25, 2009, 04:43:23 PM

A long time ago (january, I think ;) ) I said I wanted to do the fuji ckt but in a hand wound way.

So, I looked hard at that fuji ckt this morning and decided to wind a little trial toroid in a slightly different way. I had a hint of this thought yesterday but this is a bit different.

I made the primary with 5T and 8T. but I did it by centering the 2 primary wires and winding 2 1/2 in each direction, then continuing with only one of them out in both directions. I could have made it perfectly even, but I see I didn't quite.

charcoal 1/2 toroid
2N3904 transistor
799ohm base resistor
1.35v battery
primary centered 5T,8T
secondary 18T

As a bjt the led is very bright. and it draws
34.1mA

I added 18 turns secondary just to see. and by now, these results are not too surprising.
with
1 led 24.2mA
2 led 23.6mA
3 led 22.4mA

The point of this was the secondary multiplication so I rectified the volts and saw
11.25volts

Then I turned on my new scope with freshly charged batteries.
The timer marks are now set and the way I read it, this scope is telling me that I have a very nice sine wave. I mean it is even. pointed but even and the center mark for this one is in the center of the curve. the MK1 and 2 had more dramatic sharp spiky curves but they were all above or all below the center line.
I have no idea if this is significant, but it seems it to me.

The scope says I have not 11volts but from peak to peak 750mV |/\/\/\/\/\/\|18 full curves in 2usec.

Anybody have an idea? I am still trying to make the dmm rectified volts and the strobe measurement of the volts agree. I have not been able to do this yet in 2 days.

It is possible that the symbol looks like peak to peak but is rms. I am still learning. Is there anyone who can say that this looks like a possibility? I mean would 750 mV rms be equivalent to 11.5 rectified volts?

So, I got 2 things from this little test.

1- there is a nice shape ac produced when you center the primary wires, even if you have different length wires in the primary.
2- there is good amplification from primary to secondary, but the bridge and scope do not agree how much - by a lot.

thank you

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 25, 2009, 07:02:42 PM

@ jeanna

It would seem that you have a 100:1 scope probe. On a good scope with and a good probe the display will automatically adjust for this. But not all scopes and probes do this. Most likely you are getting 75 volts peak to peak which would be about 37 volts DC out of a full wave rectifier for a perfect sine wave. Try using the probe on a 1.5 volt battery and see what shows up on the display - don't forget to zero the scope first - short out probe and adjust vertical trace position to 0 volts. It sounds like you got a good scope for the price.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 25, 2009, 07:05:45 PM

Oh dear,
I guess I am now up against tuning again.

I had a lot more secondary wire that was unwound when I took those test measurements this morning. So, I wrapped it all. 40 turns. I expected the secondary readings to go up.

They went down.

The amps draw also went down, but this is the wrong direction. strange bird this jt!

with 40 turns on the secondary instead of 18 and the same 5T one way connected to 8 T the other way, the amps draw for 3 leds off the secondary was 12.7mA (22.9mA before)
The rectified voltage as shown through the bridge was no longer 11.25 volts but 6.7V rectified. The scope said 0.485v this time I found a symbol meaning rms maybe. Anyway they both went down. I guess I happened on a good resonance in the earlier wind. Maybe I will take one turn out at a time.

ugh!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 25, 2009, 07:09:26 PM

@ jeanna

RMS is only meaningful if input is a perfect sine wave. Don't use it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 25, 2009, 07:22:40 PM

Quote from: xee2 on March 25, 2009, 07:02:42 PM
@ jeanna

It would seem that you have a 100:1 scope probe. On a good scope with and a good probe the display will automatically adjust for this. But not all scopes and probes do this. Most likely you are getting 75 volts peak to peak which would be about 37 volts DC out of a full wave rectifier for a perfect sine wave. Try using the probe on a 1.5 volt battery and see what shows up on the display - don't forget to zero the scope first - short out probe and adjust vertical trace position to 0 volts. It sounds like you got a good scope for the price.

OH good some help!! Thanks xee2!

The manual calls it x1 and x10 probe, so I am not sure.
There is an automatic display, but it goes by too fast to understand. I used it on my skin yesterday to be sure the machine was working. (THAT was interesting.)

Then I found a way to make the screen show timed divisions on the x axis and voltage on the y axis. I can change the resolution of these. But I don't understand (or maybe can't see well enough) the symbols for the voltage.

I will read the manual and try to figure out how to do what you just described. There is a dc function and somehow a way to move the trace lines. I saw them both a couple of times.. ;)

Remember when digital wristwatches first came out? there were 2 max 3 buttons and depending on how long you pushed them the buttons did different things. This is what is going on here to add to my total newbyness.

I will try to quickly re read the part you refer to

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 25, 2009, 07:43:55 PM

I wonder if it is the decibels readings.

I recognize the initials, but that is it.

dB= measured signal (ac+dc) is converted to dB (0dB=dBref which is user defined !!)
dBV= measured signal (ac+dc) is converted to dBV (0dB=1 V)
dBm=measured signal (ac+dc) is converted to dBm (0dB=0.77fV)

I assume ac+dc means for either and both. there is also a list for just ac.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 25, 2009, 08:45:08 PM

@ jeanna

0 DBm is one milliwatt. DB are log measurements. I suggest you avoid theses. They really have no use for what you are doing.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 25, 2009, 09:52:36 PM

@ All:

Here is a video of my Bedini replication that I attempt to show the sounds of the rpm's through my stereo. The thing I don't understand is that, I have a base resistor of like 460 ohms and two vr's of 5k each. when I fire up the motor, the two vr's are closed down to their 0 point. Once the motor accelerates, I can open up the primary resistor and it speeds up. After a bit, I can then close the primary vr back to 0 and it goes into what I call...second gear, and really takes off. then, I add some resistance on the primary vr and it goes even faster. I have no idea why.

I am not attempting to link a JT to it yet so this is off-topic but, I would like to understand why this does this if anyone knows. Thanks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfprTzG5SY4

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 25, 2009, 10:21:57 PM

awsome video Bill!! ;D ;D

i made one too but not quite as cool .... ;)

my big coil on the scope....

ist

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXuf_w3p4Sc

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 25, 2009, 11:02:53 PM

IST:

Thank you.

Great video man, where the heck did you find a source for that size toroid? Your sparks, as you know, did not show up on the video but, I could hear the toroid pitch change and also hear the arcing so, I know they were there. Trust me, I know sometimes video cams don't see what we see when filming. Great job man.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on March 25, 2009, 11:53:35 PM

@Bill,
Awsome things happenning with your Bedini.

By your discription, you have made a Bedini with an Electronic Gearbox, now if you can find the electric gearshift how to change gears, man ooooh man.

@Jeanna,
I needed to reboot my PC to fix the access problem I had.

@all
Thanks for the wonderful jibes of my big hoop a ring, I might bury it vertically half way in the ground one day and see what comes out of it, a sort of modified JT come NS coil setup.

BTW, did anyone figure out the reason for the potty?
Its a spare replacement for the original if it breaks.
You need a spare to be replaced "imediately" if one gets broken, if one hasent the funds to buy one immediatly, one is then in trouble BIG time, ha ha, so it is there for when it is needed.

Now I had betta go and see the latest flicks ;D

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on March 26, 2009, 09:19:00 AM

@Jeanna: that's a neat research plan you've got there...
The carbon toroid, is that intended to see what effect the carbon has
instead of an iron or ferrite core?
I recall you mentioning carbon's diamagnetic properties some time ago...
... but I had this nagging feeling in the back of my mind that there
was more to carbons magnetic properties than meets the eye...
... and after a quick peek in some of my books, now I know why. :)
In general and especially in the period before say the 1990s, carbon
was and is considered to be "non-magnetic". Unfortunately, materials
that show very weak diamagnetism are often considered to be "non-magnetic",
so that doesn't really help much. Later research has shown some
very interesting, allbeit weak, magnetic effects in certain types of carbon
materials. (A fairly good overview can be found in the book entitled
"Carbon Based Magnetism; an overview of the magnetism of metal-free
carbon-based compounds and materials" by Marakova & Palacio, 2006,
ISBN-13: 978-0-444-51947-4. In case anyone is interested. ;))
Certain allotropes of carbon have different magnetic properties.
So-called "pyrolytic" carbon aka "fullerene-like" carbon structures
indeed are diamagnetic, although true fullerenes as in bucky balls
and diamond structures tend to be only very weakly diamagnetic
in respect to for example pure graphite or certain types of carbon
nanotubes.
Carbon nanofoam on the other hand is ferromagnetic.

May I ask what type of carbon material your toroid is made of?
Is it graphite or pressed&baked carbon fiber?
I presume it is not a nanofoam nor fullerene as I assume it is
difficult to find those in toroid shape...?

In any case it will be very interesting to see how a carbon toroid
affects the JT function.
Since I still adhere mostly to the transformer style interpretation
of the JT I would suspect the efficiency of such a setup using
carbon to be lower than that of a ferrite or iron core JT;
but to be honest, what with the magnetic field collapsing and the
back emf that appears to be playing a role here too, other interesting
effects might occur. I am secretly hoping for the anomalous
carbon-boron-carbon "stimulated artificial beta decay" phenomenon
to show up in setups involving carbon and induced magnetism and
current in it. (see the carbon fusion thread)
;)

@Bill: Great respect for the Pirate for that beautiful Bedini replication of yours!!! :)
It looks really nice. What, if I may ask some dim questions, did you use for
cover on that motor? It looks a little like the metallic cover of a desk lamp I have here... ;)

That "gearing up" effect that you get when you fidget with the variable resistor there,
that is remarkable.
It reminds me of the "peripiteia effect" in that the "peripiteia" motor also speeds up
when an adjustment is made that should actually make it slow down.
Have you considered this similarity? It might be worth looking into?
(Idunno, I'm just offering suggestions, it just seems to me that something similar may
be happening there.)

Interesting side effect in your video is the increase of "static" picked up by the
microphone as the motor steps into "second gear"... Almost as if your adjusting
of the variable resistor causes an imbalance which causes increased "static",
and as if the speeding up of the motor then re-establishes the balance with the
simultaneous effect that the "static" disappears again...

May I ask what output you're getting from it, what the input is, and if you've
already done some experiments with the output to check if it's normal,
"cold", or mixed current?

Keep up the piracy! Lol! ;D :)

regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 26, 2009, 11:20:53 AM

a friend passed me this link just incase someone cares.....

http://api.ning.com/files/ebDSQQpw7fKImqre8XK2nb7Om0uhoBOmnd79lSxK9Gajeeojcc3ULdw*DXTR3tw6ZD3MIFghAYscWho9RBkXTgTMtpGZBrZx/clifhigh22march2009.mp3

it was wild to say the least ... ARE OUR THOUGHTS REALLY AND TRUELY OUR OWN .... OR ARE WE JUST BORROWING THEM ;) LOL

hence me posting it ..

ist!

so it gets more wilder yet .... ;D

so i took a few readings .... im haveing a hard time to match up the wires ... ;D but i find out lol does it matter !?!?!?!?! ;)

lol

i can read as high as 3.5vac ac at 4 ma / wire ...+/- and now this means .... well btw no diodes ..

lol

MY OUTPUT APEARS TO BE 10.7KHZ so the cheepie meter says ... it seams to build up ...... hummmmm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on March 26, 2009, 02:41:59 PM

I made a coil out of the other 1inch toroid from Goldmine http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G6683 (http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G6683) to compare to the High Perm toroid. Wasn't able to fit the 10-10-80 configuration on it since the High Perm has a larger inner diameter, so I had to manage with a 7-7-70 (Base-Collector-Pickup). Will have some pictures up when I get a chance. I tuned the pot (0-10k ohm 15 turn pot) for max voltage from the pickup coil and ended up with about 500 ohm resistance. This gave me 250 rectified volts with a draw of 125ma with no load from a single rechargeable AA at about 1.35 volts. I can charge a 200 volt 22uf cap for less than 1 second and get a massive spark shorting out the capacitor after charging. I can light all my LEDs (about 20) from the pickup coil using a 10k ohm resistor dropping the draw down to 20ma for the first LED and dropping about 0.5ma for each LED added in parallel. With the 10k ohm, I get 75 volts rectified with 20ma no load draw. Since I have 5 of these, I'll start trying different configs with them. The performance and efficiency seems to be a little bit better than the High Perm but pretty close to the same values. With a resistor range of about 300-1000 ohm, both toroids sing an audible sound. Max draw on both toroids was about 350-400 ma at about 300 ohm resistance into the Base. I can drop the draw down to less than 1 ma using a 0.1uf cap in parallel to the 10k ohm resistor. LEDs are not very bright at this draw, but still put out decent light. Hope all this info helps.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 26, 2009, 03:25:31 PM

@ hazens1

Well done. Thanks for providing so much information. Is this what your 1 ma circuit looks like?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on March 26, 2009, 05:16:02 PM

Quote from: xee2 on March 26, 2009, 03:25:31 PM
@ hazens1

Well done. Thanks for providing so much information. Is this what your 1 ma circuit looks like?

Well done! That's exactly what I have minus the 10uf on the battery, but that can only improve the efficiency. Are you using an application to make diagrams or cut and pasting them?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 26, 2009, 05:32:51 PM

@ hazens1

The 10 uF cap will not make much difference at 1 ma battery drain, but it will help when you are draining large currents from the battery with a capacitor across the base resistor. The cap across the base resistor should also reduce the battery drain when getting 200 volts out. My diagrams are cut and paste using Serif DrawPlus. Please keep posting your results.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 26, 2009, 06:26:35 PM

@ Koen:

Thank you. First, that cover is nothing more than a flashlight reflector turned upside down. It was sitting on my work table close by and I looked at it, and it matched the diameter of the VCR head so.......I have no real reason for gluing it on except that it fit so nice and was there. Yes the bit about the pots being in one position and it accelerates to a point, you add some resistance, it speeds up, once it reaches equilibrium, you set the pot back to where it was (all the way off) and the motor takes off...then you go back to where you were with adding a little resistance and it speeds up again....I have no idea why. Once you get to this point I had tried to repeat to go even faster but it will not. I have not yet been able to measure any real output numbers as folks have said I need a scope to see the spikes as my DMMs will not pick them up. I have received several 300-400 volts shocks (subjective on the amount) and it does charge the charging battery pretty well so...I think it works but to what efficiency, until I find a scope I will have no real idea. Yes, I agree about the static, there is a slight buzz when you accelerate the motor when it balances at it's equilibrium for that setting, it goes away, run it up higher and the static returns until balance is achieved again. This noise is very very low and hard to hear and my bearings are very good (so far) which is why I used the really sensitive mike and had my stereo cranked up as well. Thanks for your kind words and comments.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 26, 2009, 06:31:23 PM

@Koen,
Thank you for that interesting information on carbon.
My toroid was called "charcoal" by allelectronics. It is very small but quite powerful. It seems to me better than most of the others.

@hazens,
Wow, man thank you. for that information.
I also have 5 of these, and I have wound 3 of them.
I too, find them somewhat better than the high perm toroid from goldmine (which I also have 2 of.)

I have wound some close to what you have. I will make a copy today - tonight and tune it and see how these compare. It is really helpful to be using the same toroid as someone else. I think Bill has 5 of these too.

Thanks for being so precise in your measurements and your report. This is very helpful to everyone, because it is meaningful.

@xee,
Thanks for explaining again why the battery cap is there. I have been taking mine out when doing multiple toroid measurements because it causes too much adjustment in some of them. (I put it back when I am just working with one for a while.)

jeanna

EDIT:
I just found the one that is closest to Hazens. This was untuned, and I was looking for other things at the time. I am soo grateful for this reexamination, Hazens,

2N3904
790ohm resistor at base
5T,5T bifilar primary
116 turns secondary/pick up
21V rectified
bjt no led 21.8mA
BJT with 3 leds 24.6mA

there were other things going on like caps in various places etc...

I will first tune this since I now have the precision pots, (and pop in a 2n2222 also) then I will rewind the primary with 7T,7T. and look at the voltage from there.
Thanks again Hazens!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 26, 2009, 08:16:04 PM

i did a second vid .. of my input ma draw my out freq... and scope shots ...

enjoy

RAIN DELAYS .... WE AWAKE NOW!!

IST!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2C6Ej8swnkQ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on March 26, 2009, 08:24:55 PM

@ist,
Just going back to your video, I was watching for the sparks as you bridged out the multi ends together, I also didnt see any sparks, I think the reason is, because the wire ends didn't match each end, or there were so many in parallel, some may have missed because several may have been presented back to front.
Hmmm I'm getting toung tied here, if all the (A) ends were soldered together and all the (B) ends were soldered together, then I think a spark would have been forth coming.

This is nice work you are doing IST, I found a microwave oven with a switchmode power supply in it a couple of weeks ago, its main transformer has a very similar parallel winding setup as you have done.
I sat down last night thinking about this for some time.

Using this method of winding many seperate strands in a drill has some merit, as it means you only need 1 torid instead of 50 torids.
A great big hmmmmm indeed.

@Bill,
I also noticed on your video of your bedini. the interference as the drum head assembly spun up, then I also saww the interference dissappear. This was during the close up as you brought the camera close to give us some idea of the sounds it made.

Both videos were excellent.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on March 26, 2009, 08:54:56 PM

IST,

Next time can you stretch out the waveform and set your trigger to channel 1 +.
The waves you are showing on the video do not really mean anything. You can't see the actual waveform.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on March 26, 2009, 10:08:02 PM

@all
I knew about the following web site a few years ago but forgot where I had it, found it just now.
It has many circuits, including a page with a circuit to make a simple o scope.

http://www3.telus.net/chemelec/Projects/Oscilloscope/Scope.htm

There is an instrument that we havent tried to make to see if we have high voltages and that is a deflecting foil or plastic bag HV scope
Cut 2 thin shopping bag strips, suspend them from a wire, then connect the HV output to the wire, the greater the charge, the further the 2 strips repell.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 27, 2009, 07:56:02 PM

Hey it looks like we are back on the air again here....Good job Stefan. Thank you.

@ Jim:

Thank you. Also, great idea on the hv detector. I saw a similar device being used in one of the MIT electronics course videos. Sounds easy enough to make.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on March 27, 2009, 08:25:43 PM

Hey i thought it was just mine but i see everyone had the problem . Thanks Stefan . I know that was a job !

Gadget ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 27, 2009, 09:19:30 PM

i thought they show me all i need ed to see lol

altho i have now split the wires im pairing them up int 60 pairs ... and i had some rinnnnninggg lol waves not to long ago then it blew my transistor .....hummmmmm

so no i never had the cam close but

i ended up useing a aa battery and a mater to find its pair .. as there is cross feeding from the wires .... hummmm ;) hint hint lol

the scope shows the spikes both ways ... pos and neg from 1 pulsed dc source ... i also was able on my scope to see somthing NEW LOL per haps there some kind of current node ...... and voltage nodes..... hummm it was neat ....

lol

im still pairing the wires .... lol

glad to be back up and online agin ...

i just LOVE growing ..... ;) ;) ;) nuttin quite like it .... ;D

!steam!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 27, 2009, 10:11:32 PM

OH hooray we're back!

Hi everyone.

I got 100 volts today!! I blew up 5 more leds for a total of 7.

Also, I got the scope to show its stuff. I sort of remember what I did.HA

Anyway. I tried to take a pic to show you all what the screen looks like and maybe you can see the 75volt side .

bbs,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 27, 2009, 10:23:15 PM

http://www.disclose.tv/viewvideo/20573/RUSSIAN_MILITARY_SHOWS_OFF_ANTI_GRAVITY_TECHNOLGY/

Hi every one .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 27, 2009, 10:39:44 PM

Hi everyone,

Today I made as close a copy as possible to the one hazens made the other day. He got 214volts. I don't know why I got 100v, but here is the picture. I took the picture mostly to see if I could get some way to show you the wave form I am getting.

This one is pretty spiky.

I have only 1 probe, so I can only see/show one side of the waveform. sort of.

Anyway, this is the part that has 85volts from the line to the tops of the spikes.
The other direction draws out in many of the missing spaces, so maybe it goes up then down like a real ac. I kind of think it does even though it is spikey.

I could tell you anything because it isn't clear enough. On the right side of the screen is the list of parameters shown. Hz msec voltage peak to peak
beneath the graph is the rms~. Xee says not to pay attention to that. OK.

You can see the all green mag wire coil
7T, 7T inverter wires (bjt)
68 pickup turns (not quite 70)
2n3904 transistor
precision pot ~250ohm
47uF cap at base

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on March 27, 2009, 11:05:46 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 27, 2009, 10:23:15 PM
http://www.disclose.tv/viewvideo/20573/RUSSIAN_MILITARY_SHOWS_OFF_ANTI_GRAVITY_TECHNOLGY/

Hi every one .

Hey doc !:) how u doing . or rather what u doing ? yes that is cool link..
take it easy Marcus ..

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 27, 2009, 11:18:44 PM

@all

Sorry , i got really sick , i have been vomiting for the last 5 days now, i am trying to keep up , got i problem with my doctor not wanting to help me get back on my feet (i needed a saline solution for support and got denied by a bitch that get a dr pay check , stupidity comes it all size and sexe ) ,i have a hard time passing water , man is this world going to.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on March 27, 2009, 11:39:45 PM

Quote from: jeanna on March 27, 2009, 10:39:44 PM
Hi everyone,

Today I made as close a copy as possible to the one hazens made the other day. He got 214volts. I don't know why I got 100v, but here is the picture. I took the picture mostly to see if I could get some way to show you the wave form I am getting.

This one is pretty spiky.

I have only 1 probe, so I can only see/show one side of the waveform. sort of.

Anyway, this is the part that has 85volts from the line to the tops of the spikes.
The other direction draws out in many of the missing spaces, so maybe it goes up then down like a real ac. I kind of think it does even though it is spikey.

I could tell you anything because it isn't clear enough. On the right side of the screen is the list of parameters shown. Hz msec voltage peak to peak
beneath the graph is the rms~. Xee says not to pay attention to that. OK.

You can see the all green mag wire coil
7T, 7T inverter wires (bjt)
68 pickup turns (not quite 70)
2n3904 transistor
precision pot
47uF cap at base

jeanna

nice setup Jeanna . you suppose it might be the difference in wire guage in this case . you both are using the same toroid right ? I got some other one comming ..
Gadget.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 27, 2009, 11:51:52 PM

Thanks gadget,

It was the exact same gauge. and the same toroid and (almost) the same numbers. I found that the wire ends were too close to each other and kept shorting when I was taking measurements, so I unwound 2 secondary to 68 instead of 70.

I used the 2n3904 which gave me better results, but I plunked in a 2n2222 (what hazens used) just to see. the voltage went down.

I should have used the 10Mohm resistor on the secondary to look at some lights, but maybe tomorrow I will find it. It is on another breadboard around here somewhere. ;)

Anyway the main reason I took the pic was to show the screen of the new scope.

Does anybody have advice on how to get a neon to light here? I think it should be lighting, shouldn't it? There is no circuit for it. I just have the 2 pickups in next to each other (series) on the breadboard. There are 2 wires taking their output to the bridge when I am measuring that through the bridge. I pull the wire when the scope is on. Should I do something else to make a circuit? It seems complete to me, but ...

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Thaelin on March 28, 2009, 12:01:56 AM

Hate to rain on that one but you can hear the rotor. What can be done with video these
days, that is nothing really. Good job tho.

thaelin

Quote from: Mk1 on March 27, 2009, 10:23:15 PM
http://www.disclose.tv/viewvideo/20573/RUSSIAN_MILITARY_SHOWS_OFF_ANTI_GRAVITY_TECHNOLGY/

Hi every one .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 28, 2009, 12:11:37 AM

Can someone with an oscilloscope post a picture of what's going on between the emitter and ground ( - )?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 28, 2009, 12:53:52 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 28, 2009, 12:11:37 AM
Can someone with an oscilloscope post a picture of what's going on between the emitter and ground ( - )?

Won't that be different with everyone's different set up?

On my 7,7,68 pictured above, the emitter says 8.9v (!!) and is mostly straight with a little ripple rising up pretty frequently but it is small. The scale is such that the little ripple is 8.9v. But I am not sure if I am measuring what you want.

The high voltage surprises me. I checked the base and it says 2,5v. Hmm that is a lot of draw just for the transistor with no light or anything. Isn't that interesting. Sorry, no pic tonight. too hard still. I am balancing it on my knee while holding the camera. I don't want to drop either one.

I don't know it this will help.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 28, 2009, 02:02:24 AM

@ jadaro2600 and jeanna

??? I usually consider the negative side of the battery to be ground. The emitter is connected to the negative side of the battery. Since they are both connected to same place, how can there be a difference in voltage between them?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 28, 2009, 02:25:00 AM

@ jeanna

Congratulations. Isn't 100 volts the highest you have gotten?.

I suspect he just has a better 2N2222 than you do. The 2N2222 has a large variation in performance from unit to unit. I recommend 2N2222A which is sorted for better performance and is usually only a penny more. He also used a 0.1 uF cap not a 47 uF cap which may make a difference. Did you adjust the base resistor value for highest voltage?

A 100 volt output is close to lighting a neon. They usually need a little over 100 volts to turn on and then will run with only 90 volts once they are on. Just connect the neon between the two leads of the secondary coil. No rectifier or cap is needed. It works both ways.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on March 28, 2009, 02:32:03 AM

@all
Eeeeehaaaar looks like Stefan's got the website up again, Thanks Stefan.

Nice to see us all back, Jeanna, Al and ist, I got your PM's about the access prob.
Yesterday I had troubles accessing it, I thought it was my PC needing a reboot, but after doing this, I still had intermittiant access probs.
This morning early, All I could see was the top bar and a blank secrrn, I could send Jeanna a reply, but after that, it locked up. I couldn't reply to all the others, must still be a grelmin in the works, but at least Stefan got the main forum working.

I'll send this and see if it appears like it normally should.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 28, 2009, 02:52:04 AM

Quote from: xee2 on March 28, 2009, 02:02:24 AM
@ jadaro2600 and jeanna

??? I usually consider the negative side of the battery to be ground. The emitter is connected to the negative side of the battery. Since they are both connected to same place, how can there be a difference in voltage between them?

lol, you're right, ...I just thought that the current might be pulsing or some other thing might be going on on that route.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 28, 2009, 03:10:11 AM

Is it just me or is this circuit a little cross? Doesn't this waste energy to a larger degree - it's got a path straight through, so to speak.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 28, 2009, 03:42:41 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 28, 2009, 03:10:11 AM
Doesn't this waste energy

Yes.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on March 28, 2009, 04:11:25 AM

@Mk1,
You poor old thing, sorry to hear you are crook.
Its bad chucking up for 5 days. :o

Quote from: Mk1 on March 27, 2009, 11:18:44 PM
@all

Sorry , i got really sick , i have been vomiting for the last 5 days now, i am trying to keep up , got i problem with my doctor not wanting to help me get back on my feet (i needed a saline solution for support and got denied by a bitch that get a dr pay check , stupidity comes it all size and sexe ) ,i have a hard time passing water , man is this world going to.

Its not fun being crook.
Get some chicken broth into you, my mum used to give us kids that stuff, yum, and it fixed the tummy up too.
Sneek a tot of rum, or brandy or in it, (hide it, don't tell anyone) lol.

Hurry up and get better Mark.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on March 28, 2009, 04:31:03 AM

@Jadaro2600
If you want to give the JT grunt, this is one way to do it without the 1.5v AA

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 28, 2009, 03:10:11 AM
Is it just me or is this circuit a little cross? Doesn't this waste energy to a larger degree - it's got a path straight through, so to speak.

No, this one dosent wast energy,
If you look at the Battery, it is up to 24v DC. If you presented that voltage to the base of the transister, it would go pooof and let the smoke out lol
The 2 resisters allow a "portional" amount of voltage to the transisters base, BUT, the "full" 24v would bee seen at the top of the coil. When it is operating, there would be a tiny fluxuration seen at the junction between the two resisters, Very cleavor circuit this one.

It could easily have been done by placing just 1 resistor on the +.

BTW, how did I get my above post message inserted inside with MK1's post?
Now I'm confused.

The Mouse war, Casualtys mice =11 in 2 days
Thanks Jeanna for those tips.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: ScienceMan on March 28, 2009, 07:27:00 AM

Hi All

Found this interesting invention by Ann Ainslie using Back EMF that appears to be similar to the JT. You might have seen it before but I think it's worth checking out.

http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?wo=1999038247

ScienceMan 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 28, 2009, 08:08:25 AM

Quote from: ScienceMan on March 28, 2009, 07:27:00 AM
Hi All

Found this interesting invention by Ann Ainslie using Back EMF that appears to be similar to the JT. You might have seen it before but I think it's worth checking out.

http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?wo=1999038247

ScienceMan 8)

Good find Scienceman

I didn't read the whole thing
From the schematic it could be a JT ......it doesn't show if the starts for the coil are hooked up start to end or start to start .
How they are tapping power might be worth studying

This could also be a way to add grunt to a small JT

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on March 28, 2009, 08:17:02 AM

@Scienceman,
Good find that circuit, I can see we will be placing diodes all over the JT now just to see what we can see will happen with it.
So much new stuff turning up don't know where to begin.

PS, don't forget your school studies, they are important for you, but we need you here also he he ;D

@all, mouse trap went off again, make Dtoll = 14 now, just for 2 days work.

Saw amother mouse, he ran over the top of the deddem still stuck in the trap before I could get to it, so at least another one to be got.
Traps need to be tuned, just like the Joule Thief.

@Bill
This thread is just awsome, I really cannot thank you enough for starting it.
Is all OK? I havent see you posting much. :-\

what a weekend it has been so far.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on March 28, 2009, 08:21:44 AM

Quote from: ScienceMan on March 28, 2009, 07:27:00 AM
Hi All

Found this interesting invention by Ann Ainslie using Back EMF that appears to be similar to the JT. You might have seen it before but I think it's worth checking out.

http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?wo=1999038247

ScienceMan 8)

Hello ScienceMan

I started a thread a couple days ago about her called MAGNETIC FIELD MODEL .

She also has a web site.

I read some of her patent it looked like she was capturing some of the energy before it went to the motor and sending it back to the source battery.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on March 28, 2009, 09:37:26 AM

I think there seems to be some confusion on the high voltage setups that I have done. Since my amp draw was going past 75ma which is the most I like to push the 2n2222 since it starts to get warm. Don't wan't to burn anything out. So I switched to using a TIP31 npn which is available at Radio Shack and it is able to push 3amps so it should handle 1-1.5 amps without heating up at all. Also, my high voltage circuit does not use any capacitors at all. If I place a cap (0.1uf) parallel to the resistor (500 ohm) it drops the voltage down to about 100 volts. So anyone trying this setup, try a larger transistor and take the cap out. Here is a diagram attached. Thanks @ xee2 for posting the original that I have modified to represent the circuit that I got 250 volts from. Do NOT place an LED on this one unless you want to toast it. Or unless you have at least a dozen in series placed after the rectifier, If you place them non rectified you should place 2 rows opposite polarity to take the voltage from both directions. Hope this helps :P

Also, if you don't have a 500 ohm or preciscion pot, you can place 2 x 1k in parallel to get 500 ohm.

Edit: I added some pics of the 7-7-70 coil which after recounting it is actually 7-7-71 :P
The pic with the captions shows where each of the wires connect to in the circuit and the arrows pointing into the center of the toroid shows the coil starting position for each of the 3 coils and the arrows outside the toroid show the winding direction. I always wind over the top of the toroid into the center then back around from under the toroid. Have fun!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: ScienceMan on March 28, 2009, 11:26:46 AM

@resonanceman and @electricme

Thanks....

@electricme

Yea its amazing how when you put positive thoughts into something, things pop up all over the place...
And yes I must make sure I don't get carried away with this much more valuable stuff and forget my school work ha ha ;)

@slayer

Quote from: slayer007 on March 28, 2009, 08:21:44 AM
Hello ScienceMan

I started a thread a couple days ago about her called MAGNETIC FIELD MODEL .

She also has a web site.

I read some of her patent it looked like she was capturing some of the energy before it went to the motor and sending it back to the source battery.

Haha was also going to start a new thread on the MAGNETIC FIELD MODEL but somehow in terms of her actual device (invention) I think we should post it here because it relates greatly to the JT we have in this thread. In terms of the theory behind Ann's invention and what she talks about (the magnetic field etc.) will be cool on your thread ;D ;D ;D.

As far as I understand the patent (not much ;D), she captures the back EMF from the disturbance in the magnetic field when the FET switches on and off... not sure how she captures it in a seperate circuit to use on a different device or load....

Good Stuff!!!

ScienceMan 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 28, 2009, 12:27:13 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 28, 2009, 03:10:11 AM
Doesn't this waste energy to a larger degree - it's got a path straight through, so to speak.

2 resistors in series hooked to the power source like that, is call "voltage divider"
it is a crude and inefficient way to split the source voltage across resistor.

not only does it split the voltage, it also limit the current.
I = E / R1 + R2
I is the same across each resistors.
the current passing in R2 is the waist.

Quote from: resonanceman on March 28, 2009, 08:08:25 AM
This could also be a way to add grunt to a small JT

yes
both circuits are equivalent except for the diode and the base feeding.
R1 is only to limit the current in her circuit.

same for the jt circuit, feed the base by other meens, or, solve the self feeding to base voltage problem and limit the current passing Q1(transistor) so it don't blow up.

Quote from: electricme on March 28, 2009, 08:17:02 AM
@all, mouse trap went off again, make Dtoll = 14 now, just for 2 days work.

you should make mices stew and sell to chineses, i eard they like that delicacy. ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 28, 2009, 01:23:19 PM

im just

BLOWEN AWAY.... how far we have come ... me i dont care bout the rings ... or this teck ...

this was all left for thos that comprehend it ...

from who ... but the MASTER of course ...

if you want a lie ... go reserch the others .... lol if you want the TRUTH.. go to THE SOURCE ... ;)

he will never leave ... ;)

H!S TEAM!!

MK1 BRO ... i hope all is well ...

dont worrie tho .. ;)

were there now .... ;D they know now ... ;D

it is time to advance in life ... and the SHORT BUS .... IS FULL ......LOL

thats ok WE GOT THE FAST ONE ..... ;)

PEACE ALL .... i wish i could share my feelings on growing ... amazing .... some kno .... not many tho :)

LIFE IS JUST UNMATCHED BY ANYTHING KNOWEN TO US ..... :)

THE BEST OF YOU ....... THE FOOO...

http://www.facebook.com/ext/share.php?sid=75069469848&h=kG23B&u=UMxgg&ref=mf

MY HEAD IS GIVEING ME LIFE OR DEATH ..... BUT I CANT CHOOSE ..... LOL ya right.... ;) :) ;D

i got another confession my FRIEND im no fool ...... IM GETTING TIRED OF STARTING AGIN......... SOME WHERE NEW ....

WILL YOU WANT TO RESIST .... DONT BE ABUSED ...... :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 28, 2009, 02:09:04 PM

@TheNOP, haha..picture looks like it says "to puke generator".

..thanyou all for the information about the diagram. It did seem a little strange.

Now, for another question, ..I have a DMM, and it has a diode checking mechanism ..which, when placed across the appropriate leads on a diode, gives me a number ( usually a less than one as a decimal, such a 0.671 ). Is this number the voltage drop I can expect to see across it?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 28, 2009, 04:02:37 PM

Quote from: xee2 on March 28, 2009, 02:25:00 AM
@ jeanna

Congratulations. Isn't 100 volts the highest you have gotten?.

Thank you.
Yes, it is. I am on my way to making a hand wound fuji ckt.
yeay!!

QuoteI suspect he just has a better 2N2222 than you do. The 2N2222 has a large variation in performance from unit to unit. I recommend 2N2222A which is sorted for better performance and is usually only a penny more.

In fact mine are 2N2222A. I was being lazy skipping the A.

But I see Hazens has clarified. a TIP31 3amp transistor. I will need to look up what that is. I have some mosfets, but I am under the impression they will not start with the low voltage of a AA battery. Could try though...

QuoteDid you adjust the base resistor value for highest voltage?

Yes.
Mine is best at about 250ohm

QuoteA 100 volt output is close to lighting a neon. They usually need a little over 100 volts to turn on and then will run with only 90 volts once they are on. Just connect the neon between the two leads of the secondary coil. No rectifier or cap is needed. It works both ways

.

Thank you xee,

All this helps a lot.

btw, when jadaro asked for a pic of the wave across emitter and neg bat. I just touched the emitter leg. It was there I saw ??8 or so volts in a little ripple. And that is when I touched the base leg and saw 4.4volts.

Xee,(or anybody) isn't this going to kill my transistor? Why is it still OK?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 28, 2009, 04:35:06 PM

Quote from: jeanna on March 28, 2009, 04:02:37 PM

btw, when jadaro asked for a pic of the wave across emitter and neg bat. I just touched the emitter leg. It was there I saw ??8 or so volts in a little ripple. And that is when I touched the base leg and saw 4.4volts.

Xee,(or anybody) isn't this going to kill my transistor? Why is it still OK?

thank you,

jeanna

This is exactly what I've been worried about - ..the flyback is causing spikes which could theoretically damage the transistor. In most industrial situations, the transistor is controlled with a cmos clock and is specifically timed to work as it should - we're mostly working without all of the control circuitry..

This isn't the case with the resistor moved between the coil and the base - in this case it's minimized, however, there's still fluctuations.

Removing the resistor all together is how I got my inductance driven transistor to work - whenever the energy flow from the positive to the collector attempting to get to ground, the co-wound coil has an induction in it, which activates the base, the basae turns on and then there power flowing through the coil to the collector and it's turned off - flyback in the other direction - it gets turned off, etc. No need for and path from positive through to the base... here is a diagram, and a picture of it in action. This isn't using a 2n222, I'm now using a more resistant NTE210. There are two configurations shown - either works.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 28, 2009, 04:45:18 PM

Hmm,Jadaro,

What am I missing?

I cannot see a difference in the 2 pictures. I expected the cap to be in different places, but, I am not seeing any difference.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 28, 2009, 04:48:34 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 28, 2009, 02:09:04 PM
looks like it says "to puke generator".

it say "to pulse generator" for me. :P

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 28, 2009, 02:09:04 PM
I have a DMM, and it has a diode checking mechanism ..which, when placed across the appropriate leads on a diode, gives me a number ( usually a less than one as a decimal, such a 0.671 ). Is this number the voltage drop I can expect to see across it?

it is the resistance of your diode.
you can use your DMM on ohms settings to test if i am right.

@jeanna
4.4volts to the base is ok

@All
this give a fairly good understanding of transformers.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/9659415/Practical-Transformer-Handbook
take note of the differences between what is sayed to be "the appropriate way" and the way it is use in a jt.
those differences are crucial and are what make a jt work like it does.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 28, 2009, 04:59:00 PM

Quote from: jeanna on March 28, 2009, 04:45:18 PM
Hmm,Jadaro,

What am I missing?

I cannot see a difference in the 2 pictures. I expected the cap to be in different places, but, I am not seeing any difference.

thank you,

jeanna

Nothing, it's only different in the circuit diagrams. I just posted one without the lights on.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 28, 2009, 05:29:08 PM

i used a 9v batt with my 1 " mosfet irf840 jt

i made a video months ago of it i never released it public

it was sent over seas as i understood.....

i will look for the video i made and sent ... so im NOT FUNDED FROM THEASE PEOPLE SO I CAN NOW RELEASE IT PUBLIC ...

so ya

lol

im digging ...

ist!

it was on a scope aswell ...

i have others too ... same thing lighting BULBS...... DIFFRENT COIL ......SAME THING ;D 8)

see how youtube likes me today .....

???

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 28, 2009, 05:50:19 PM

@Jadaro, OK thanks. One is a lot easier to see.

Just before I changed my winding to be exactly (not just conceptually) like Hazens, I took another look at the waveforms. But this time I added a 104pF (=100,000pF) ceramic cap across the base resistor / base and also put a yellow led (15cents) in the bjt spot.
So, the voltage across the secondary pickups went way down. One way it was 4volts and the other I forget 8 or 12volts peak2peak.

The wave is much more smooth. - much more what I think I need to run a normal toaster etc.

So, here are 2 pics 100k each, so maybe 2 posts??

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 28, 2009, 08:29:36 PM

@ jadaro2600

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 28, 2009, 04:35:06 PM
There are two configurations shown - either works.

The circuit with cap going to positive end of battery is better since there will always be enough voltage to turn on transistor when the transformer allows current to flow into base. The other circuit will only work if transformer charges cap to at least 0.7 volts, which may not happen if capacitor has large capacitance.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 28, 2009, 08:32:06 PM

@ TheNOP

Good transformer reference, and its free (best kind).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 28, 2009, 08:50:56 PM

@ jeanna

Why don't you build his low current circuit? You have all of the parts for that. I don't think you have lit up any LEDs with only 1 mA yet.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 28, 2009, 09:32:53 PM

Well xee2,

It was a while ago so maybe you forgot.
I ran 30 leds on 19mA and they were all very bright.
I could have run more but I ran out at 30.

It works out to 0.63mA each. I am not sure, but I believe it is still the record.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 28, 2009, 09:54:03 PM

@ jeanna

But you were using 19 mA he is only using 1 mA to light multiple LEDs. I am not sure how many LEDs his circuit will light, but it might light 30 LEDs with only 1 mA or 2 mA or 3 mA. His circuit produces high voltage so LEDs need to be in two series strings. Just something you might try.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 28, 2009, 10:42:43 PM

Quote from: xee2 on March 28, 2009, 08:50:56 PM
@ jeanna

Why don't you build his low current circuit? You have all of the parts for that. I don't think you have lit up any LEDs with only 1 mA yet.

@xee
Which one is that?
Are you referring to jadaro's circuit?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 28, 2009, 11:02:54 PM

My circuits usually don't light more than two LED's ...I don't know where to get a whole strand of them. I'm actually trying to light CFL's, rather than LED's - just because of the high voltage and the notion that it's easy to blow an LED.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 29, 2009, 01:14:56 AM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on March 28, 2009, 10:42:43 PM
@xee
Which one is that?

This one.

You may need to reduce the base resistor value to light more LEDs or make them brighter. That will increase the current. But I think you should be able to light a lot of LEDs with only a few mA. Remember, they should be in series (as shown), not parallel.

Most AA batteries will supply 1 mA for about 2 months.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 29, 2009, 01:15:09 AM

@ Jim:

I am fine but just have been busy with the business and all for the last week or so. It has been pretty crazy. We had a tornado touch down here today and several more just to the west of my location. you know, if you use a good barbecue sauce and marinate them just right, mice are pretty good eatin'. Just toss 'em on the barbie. (Just kidding)

@ All:

I really like the work being done by the folks here and I especially like the details being posted now about everyone's experiments. I know I have been lax about the details in the past and I too will try to jump on board when reporting results.

As I observed many, many pages back, some of us have different goals here in mind with our JT circuit experiments, which is just fine. I believe no matter what our personal research goals might be, we can all still learn something and be inspired by another's work even if they are going along a different path. That is why, if you look back over our many posts as I have been doing in order to compile our diagrams topic, I have never really told anyone "hey, that is off-topic, please start another topic for that". The reason for my attitude on this is simple. We have had many discoveries and inspirations here from stuff that might, at one time, been considered by some to be "off-topic". I would never want to lose the knowledge we, as a group, have gained by limiting our research areas. Jadaro has just said his research is learning more toward lighting cfls. I, myself, have had no luck in that area but I did have some success with the modified Fuji JT and long tubes. Now I am playing with the Bedini motor and soon, back to the old earth battery experiments. Both of these devices will somehow (in my mind at least) combine well with the JT circuit and that is where I am hoping to go. Gadgetmall found a way to reduce the current draw on the Fuji and had great success lighting cfl's as well as leds. Jeanna, working hard as usual (she makes me feel lazy) has a circuit that uses very low mA's lighting 30 leds, and if she had more leds at her disposal at the time, I know the number would have been higher. Still, her amp draw, or lack thereof, was fantastic for the light she was getting from her hand wound toroid. I believe she was replicating one of the many MK designs that we are fortunate enough to have had developed by Mark and shared with us.

So, what is my point? My point is that I believe it is fine if we have 20 folks working on 20 different devices for 20 different reasons, or any combination of folks/devices as it turns out to be. I can be working on something and then see someone else's success with something else, and I change directions in order to attempt to replicate that device.

Please everyone keep up the great work and great posting and reporting of that work. I am still a little short of time but I will attempt to do the same. Thank you to everyone.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on March 29, 2009, 03:08:38 AM

@Bill,
Sorry to hear you had a tornado touch down close to you, phew, I knew something was up, had a very uneasy feeling before I sent that off to you, I get these feelings when I know something is not right, got something like with the gadget a few weeks ago, just knew, that I knew, get the same when one of my kids prang a car or done somethin they shouldnt.

Glad to know you are OK, close call, just hope there was no loss of life in your neighbourhood.

Ha ha ha, thank everyone for the mouse receipies, they even been comeing in by PM also.
The tally so far for the last 3 days is up to 18.
Had to fine tune the mouse trap, physics and phychology involved, wow its a goodun now, like a v8 with quad headders.

file smooth the trip mechanism, oil the main spring, polish the cross bar piece, level the U hinges.
Force cheeze UNDER the two steel pronges so the mouse has to tug downwards on the trip lever.
Place the trap on the floor. Place two 12v DC gell cells either side of the mouse trap to force mr mouse to the front of the trap.

Mouse eyes position is like those on a horse, they see mainly at the sides, not so much in front, when they chomp on the bait, they might miss seeing the cross bar coming down on em.

OHHHH it works, lol

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 29, 2009, 03:23:25 AM

Quote from: electricme on March 29, 2009, 03:08:38 AM

file smooth the trip mechanism, oil the main spring, polish the cross bar piece, level the U hinges.
Force cheeze UNDER the two steel pronges so the mouse has to tug downwards on the trip lever.
Place the trap on the floor. Place two 12v DC gell cells either side of the mouse trap to force mr mouse to the front of the trap.

Mouse eyes position is like those on a horse, they see mainly at the sides, not so much in front, when they chomp on the bait, they might miss seeing the cross bar coming down on em.

OHHHH it works, lol

jim

Completely off-topic;

Bad weather here too. But no mice - there were rabbits, a few years ago, like a small heard of them would come out at night and graze on the stuff in the yard - they also ate the hot peppers I planted out back - but then hawks started nesting near by and I haven't seen them since. It's a good thing they're not the type of rodent to get in the house and eat things up. Perhaps eliminating the source of the problem might be in order? - why are they there? If you live somewhre that you're able, you may want to try a diversionary tactic - like making it more appealing away from the house. I hear that snake accessible mouse housing is one way - but keep setting traps; or buy a cat. :P

Anyway;

@all,
I recently wound a toroid where the primaries ( BC paths ) were of equal length and were spaced evenly around the toroid.

Does anyone else think it may be more productive to do things this way? ...isn't evening out the flux a good idea?

After I did this, I simply wound the secondary ( pickup coil ) over the primaries. Any suggestions.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on March 29, 2009, 03:37:06 AM

@Jadaro2600
The DMM diode test.
Yes, what you see there is the resistance reading.

If you use a Analog Multimeter, the needle may go all the way to the right, if you switch the diode around and try again, the needle should only rise a small amount.
If the needle goes halfway or more, the diode may be shorted out
If you get no Analog readings then the diode is open circuit, it is kaput

A good test for a diode is to rig up a single cell aa battery with a light globe 1.4v tin series.
Then let the diode become the "switch" .
The diode should light the bulb only in one direction.
If the bulb dosent light at all, diode is U/S
If bulb lights in both directions, diode is U/S

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on March 29, 2009, 04:14:41 AM

@Hasens1,

I want to try and make your JT circuit oscillate at 50hz.
If the 2nd Cap .1uf in the tank circuit was increased to a higher value, what shoul it be?

jim

MT went off again, score up to 19

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 29, 2009, 11:50:40 AM

Quote from: electricme on March 29, 2009, 04:14:41 AM
I want to try and make your JT circuit oscillate at 50hz.
If the 2nd Cap .1uf in the tank circuit was increased to a higher value, what shoul it be?

f = 1 / 2pi * R * C

2pi is 6.2832

it is faster with calculators ;)
~16.7 mS is 1/60 of a second, 20 mS is 1/50 of a second.

http://www.tpub.com/neets/book2/3d.htm
http://www.cvs1.uklinux.net/cgi-bin/calculators/time_const.cgi
http://www.lautsprechershop.de/tools/t_schwingkreis_en.htm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on March 29, 2009, 11:59:10 AM

Quote from: electricme on March 29, 2009, 04:14:41 AM
@Hasens1,

I want to try and make your JT circuit oscillate at 50hz.
If the 2nd Cap .1uf in the tank circuit was increased to a higher value, what shoul it be?

jim

MT went off again, score up to 19

With a 10k ohm resistor and a 10uf 35v cap I was able to get 50hz from the pickup coil after the rectifier. When I place an LED on the pickup coil after the rectifier the LED flashes brightly about 10 or more times per second. Looks kind of like a strobe light. Epileptic experimenters beware :P

Edit: If I lower the resistance to 9.9k ohm the flashing appears to be steady and the unloaded pickup coil freq is 160hz after the rectifier.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 29, 2009, 12:38:23 PM

@all

Would anyone happen to have a link to the PDF that was posted here. It was about the navy and magnetic amplification :) I can not seem to find it.

Thank you!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Bob Smith on March 29, 2009, 01:58:53 PM

I've been following this thread from the sidelines from the beginning (trying to keep my head above water with work - little time for much else). I'd like to throw out an idea for an open source healing apparatus using the JT:

Healing With LED and Laser light
I've been reading about how different frequencies of light penetrate much deeper into tissue than ordinary light, to help bring about faster healing. I wonder if the JT could be used to efficiently power light wands for this purpose. Members are already powering 30-plus LEDs. Why not develop a configuration like the one in this link:
http://laserscenarfusion.com/q1000.php
Here's their main site:
http://laserscenarfusion.com/

I don't know anything about low intensity laser LEDs, as mentioned in the link, but maybe the JT would power them as well.

I have had some significant relief from computer mouse overuse tendinitis from this sort of technology. A know of parasite cures using similar light wand technology.
Why not try and build it ourselves?
Maybe this is best for another forum thread. Just say the word, and I'll start it.
Any thoughts, anyone?
Bob

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 29, 2009, 02:52:58 PM

@xee,
That is the coil and close to the circuit (the caps sizes may differ) I was using yesterday and today.

I did not get a low amps draw at all. It was much higher than most of my other toroids. My base resistor at 10k barely lights a light.
At 2k the draw was ~30mA on the jt.

And that one is the one that blew my leds..

@all,
I made a led tester and it turns out only 3 are gone completely. 3 still work in a normal circuit, but are kaput for the jt circuits.
This is yet another indication that this jt is pushing the box out so to speak. It means to me the leds can operate as 20 amp users or as very low amp users but high frequency not too high voltage users.

Also:
As promised, yesterday I re-wound my 7-7-70 med toroid to be wound just like hazens. The results dropped to 15 and 4 volts on the 2 sides of the secondary. I first got very grumpy but then rewound it and again I have 85v on one side and 18-22v on the other. I am trying to even these out, but I may need to try a different approach.

@Hazens,
Yes, putting the primary winds on opposite sides is very good way to go. It is what characterizes the MK designs.
He found a dead spot opposite the wire ends of the primary. He calls it 180. So, he split the primary into halves. This gives the opportunity to then have pickups wound on either side of the primary halves. These can be added in parallel for more amps-'grunt'. I have not been able to connect them in series yet, but he and IST both do.

All of these pickup coils give out as much as one does with no additional draw from the battery, and their power does not diminish by adding more still. If you have a coil and ferrite material where the secondary/pickup gives 30 volts, each and every pickup coil added to that same toroid will also give 30volts. So, that is the reason I got 120volts potential off my MK2. I never got more than 30v, but 4 of them add up to 120v when MK1 and IST put them in series. (I must be doing something wrong)

@Bob Smith,
Sounds like a reason for you to start winding. Each of us has a personal idea and goal, as Bill so eloquently stated earlier. We are not likely to go for someone else's goal. But I bet you will get lots and lots of help if you start and share and need any answers.

OK Off to wind a central core coil just to see what happens... ;)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 29, 2009, 03:17:33 PM

Quote from: altrez on March 29, 2009, 12:38:23 PM
@all

Would anyone happen to have a link to the PDF that was posted here. It was about the navy and magnetic amplification :) I can not seem to find it.

Thank you!

Lost it - I think I looked at it, and there wasn't much to it - not like the title implies.

Here's an interesting link...
http://www.butlerwinding.com/elelectronic-transformer/mag-amp.html (http://www.butlerwinding.com/elelectronic-transformer/mag-amp.html)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on March 29, 2009, 06:12:27 PM

Here is a fun coil config. Still testing it, but I can use the 1 toroid for 2 JT circuits or use the coils in parallel or series with a single JT circuit.

7-7-28-7-7-28
B-C-P-B-C-P

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 29, 2009, 08:03:52 PM

Quote from: hazens1 on March 29, 2009, 06:12:27 PM
Here is a fun coil config. Still testing it, but I can use the 1 toroid for 2 JT circuits or use the coils in parallel or series with a single JT circuit.

7-7-28-7-7-28
B-C-P-B-C-P

...and how is this working out for you?

@all, Concerning the transistor...

After some experimentation, and headache, I've found that the winding traveling to the base from the resistor ( ie, from positive ) can be decreased, while the winding to the collector from positive increased. This seems to correlate with an increased voltage at the collector... In other words, more winding on the path to the collector yield more voltage AT the collector - just as any step up transformer would.

Then, at this rate, a magnetic collapse, in the presence of increased voltage, with only two coils, would cause voltage spikes across the coil to the base. This is apparently what causes the transistor to shut of as current is impeded.

Taking this a step further, we have the pickup coil, which benefits from both of these collapses- however, the current flowing through one isn't the same as the current flowing through the other, therefore the magnetic field density is stronger on the path from positive to the collector, which causes and sinusoidal waves to have a DC offset ( the waveform of the pickup coil is not on center - the waveform isn't true AC, it's more like pulsed DC ). This is the resultant waveform despite the ratio of the base and collector windings being a one to one ratio ( in many or the designs here ).

I think that a true AC waveform will be in balancing out the voltage generated from collapsing magnetic fields on both the base winding as well as the collector winding - which seems a difficult task. Taking into consideration a loaded pickup coil, this becomes even more complicated.

...we're left to fiddle.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 29, 2009, 08:25:30 PM

Hi everyone, (outer left field particularly),

I am doing something way out there today.
I've been working on this nuts idea for a while now.
It goes like this:

Can I rectify the secondary ac and put that into the battery rail, then run that through a toroid without another transistor? (I would like to keep the manufactured parts down) So, will the input of a pulsed voltage take the place of the transistor? and if so, can I use it to amp-up the output to a high enough voltage to be useful?

But for a preliminary test, I just looked at the quality of what comes out of the bridge.

So here was this afternoon's test:
Take the secondary and rectify it. Not to get the full voltage, but to get the dc pulses.
Now take those pulses and run something with them. I just tried 2 || leds, of course.

So, the secondary through a full wave rectifier shows 18volts (this is one of my very small and simple ones. -for proof of concept-only)

But it is doing it at a pulse of 3.45volts, peak to peak. (as shown on the scope)*

I take the output from both sides of the rectifier and put them into the input of a little circuit and it lights the lights. on the pulse only.

The scope shot sez this is a beautiful and even sinewave. the base line x axis is centered. (I picked the toroid that gave me the most even, but I don't think this is why.- more tests must follow)

So, the uneven pulse of the pickups here is 3.45v and the result is a beautiful sinewave of 3.45 peak to peak.

Test pre-A is now complete and successful.

So, on to higher voltages more pulses and higher output.

Jeanna

* What this means is that the voltage difference between the 2 separate pickup wires is out of phase so much that there is a wave form that "happens" as a result. It is like the beats you hear when the cello string is not quite tuned to a perfect 5th with the next string. The difference of the differences, if you will.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 29, 2009, 09:59:15 PM

Quote from: jeanna on March 29, 2009, 08:25:30 PM
Can I rectify the secondary ac and put that into the battery rail, then run that through a toroid without another transistor? (I would like to keep the manufactured parts down) So, will the input of a pulsed voltage take the place of the transistor? and if so, can I use it to amp-up the output to a high enough voltage to be useful?

...

* What this means is that the voltage difference between the 2 separate pickup wires is out of phase so much that there is a wave form that "happens" as a result. It is like the beats you hear when the cello string is not quite tuned to a perfect 5th with the next string. The difference of the differences, if you will.

Well, eventually, the 'positive feedback' will overcome the breakdown voltage of the collector - which is what i've been worried about this entire time. I'm thought about doing this very thing, but I can only imagine that because of the nature of the timing, that one would be on and the other would be off, and they would, as you point out, be out of phase - and would be destructive to one another, or worse - they could wind up squeezing the waveform into a higher amplitude, but provide much less useful energy and become even more worrisome.

The idea, I suppose, is that when pulsed DC runs through a CFL, the murcury vapor has a tendency to collect at one end, and so, the poles have to be shifted to keep the bulb working properly - which is why sometimes the weaker power sources will light only one end of the bulb.

Harmonics are symmetrical across a symmetrical body. I pointed out in my previous post that, since there's a current disparity between the collector and base coils, then the magnetic field is 'whop-sided' and so is the waveform that results between the two, so, in turn, any pickup coils are going to have non-symmetrical bias to them - wanting to flow in one general direction more than another - you can see this by placing a diode across an nonrectified pickup coil in one direction, and then in the other - and make a note that it may be brighter in one direction than another - or in some cases, it might not light up at all, or it might light both ways and there be little difference between the two, which is the end result of a complicated balancing act.

SO - I had this idea that the current flowing through each could be the same, however, the inductance could be different - and in turn , the magnetic flux as well, this would achieve the same effects as a blocking oscillator - I guess it would mean fewer winding on one coil than the other. This has a bit to do with my resistorless design a few pages back. My problem is accounting for the pickup coil - which seems to be where everyone is getting their higher voltages from.

I'm getting 40 volts rectified off of three turns going to the collector, and this is only a few turns away from exceeding the capabilities of the 2n2222...

*edit:

I tired rectifying flyback in the coil to the base back onto the coil to the collector and it ultimately lowers the voltage there, so, I'm guessing there's a destructive wave patter in the timing on my model. This doesn't exclude the idea though, ..on a secondary, if you try to patch back in flyback to the collector, it will probably have the same effect.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 29, 2009, 10:38:12 PM

@Jadaro,
Ah yes.
We were typing at the same time when we made our previous posts. I was still typing a bit after you. Our ideas have a lot in common. I love it when this happens.

I am not talking about letting the flyback get to the transistor. This is entirely taken from the secondary and after it passes through the rectifier. (I even stuck it on a separate breadboard.)

This is not where I am going ultimately. I just wanted to see if the pulses could be changed into a good useful waveform and to my delight they can.

I was thinking I needed to study up on the inductors or toroids you have been using, since your approach may be the very thing this needs to finish up and work.

My 7-7-68 from yesterday gives me 85v on one secondary wire, and 22volts on the other. This ought to give me plenty to play with. But not leds. I have no desire to lose any more of them on this. I am looking for some kind of thing that will work on 30 to 60 volts ac. Of course, there is nothing, is there? Why would there be?

Thank you for your input. It has been most helpful.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 29, 2009, 11:45:58 PM

Quote from: jeanna on March 29, 2009, 10:38:12 PM
But not leds. I have no desire to lose any more of them on this. I am looking for some kind of thing that will work on 30 to 60 volts ac. Of course, there is nothing, is there? Why would there be?

for 60 volts, 20 x 3 volts leds in series will do.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 30, 2009, 12:15:53 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98q4Ic6UL7c&feature=rec-HM-r2

You all HAVE to watch this video. This is a toroid winding machine in action. I always wondered how it was done and it seems pretty simple. We all need one of these machines. In the beginning, he is just loading the wire, watch as it winds the toroid nice and neat......and fast!!!!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on March 30, 2009, 09:29:35 AM

Quote from: jeanna on March 28, 2009, 09:32:53 PM
Well xee2,

It was a while ago so maybe you forgot.
I ran 30 leds on 19mA and they were all very bright.
I could have run more but I ran out at 30.

It works out to 0.63mA each. I am not sure, but I believe it is still the record.

jeanna

:) me 0.20 ma . at .20 vdc but i cheated . i used a VERY RARE germanium . so i guess that don't count . Do i hear a Challenge !!! Yea . Im game if you are .
Gadget . lets shoot for a string of 100 leds . white christmas lights .. who can run em the lowest on a Jt with silicon xsistor

GADGET

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on March 30, 2009, 09:38:58 AM

Quote from: jeanna on March 29, 2009, 10:38:12 PM
@Jadaro,
Ah yes.
We were typing at the same time when we made our previous posts. I was still typing a bit after you. Our ideas have a lot in common. I love it when this happens.

I am not talking about letting the flyback get to the transistor. This is entirely taken from the secondary and after it passes through the rectifier. (I even stuck it on a separate breadboard.)

This is not where I am going ultimately. I just wanted to see if the pulses could be changed into a good useful waveform and to my delight they can.

I was thinking I needed to study up on the inductors or toroids you have been using, since your approach may be the very thing this needs to finish up and work.

My 7-7-68 from yesterday gives me 85v on one secondary wire, and 22volts on the other. This ought to give me plenty to play with. But not leds. I have no desire to lose any more of them on this. I am looking for some kind of thing that will work on 30 to 60 volts ac. Of course, there is nothing, is there? Why would there be?

Thank you for your input. It has been most helpful.

jeanna

jeanna and others . They are selling strings of leds at big lots and walmart ,kmart and various places that sell patio and outdoor stuff . they are not christmas leds but are now sold as patio lights and next will be halloween light . I saw strings of whites for 8 dollars . I havent blown any yet . AND as a bonus there are several spares in each pack of lights to play with for little Jts :)
Gadget .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gyulasun on March 30, 2009, 10:28:33 AM

Quote from: altrez on March 29, 2009, 12:38:23 PM
@all

Would anyone happen to have a link to the PDF that was posted here. It was about the navy and magnetic amplification :) I can not seem to find it.

Thank you!

@altrez

Here is a link to the Navy training course and Module 8 includes magnetic amplifiers from PDF page 131.

http://www.tech-systems-labs.com/navy.htm

rgds, Gyula

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 30, 2009, 12:58:23 PM

@all

Magnetic Amplifiers U.S. Navy 1951:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item204
You will need DjVu Viewer to open the document inside the zip file.

Magnetic Amplifiers Principles and Applications1960:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item205

I just found it.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 30, 2009, 01:12:50 PM

@ist @all

I am not sure i come to the same conclusion as you do , the reason it light the led in both polarity is because the pickup coil winding goes in both direction , on that design if you have a pickup coil in one way it will only light the led in one way two .I think in one direction it works on induction only . That being said the important thing to see here is that you can get power out without creating a counter wave that kills efficiency, not having a scope , its really hard to confirm , but i tough its important to look at.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jiodkjo9hpk ( this is ist video)

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 30, 2009, 01:52:32 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on March 30, 2009, 09:38:58 AM
jeanna and others . They are selling strings of leds at big lots and walmart ,kmart and various places that sell patio and outdoor stuff . they are not christmas leds but are now sold as patio lights and next will be halloween light . I saw strings of whites for 8 dollars . I havent blown any yet . AND as a bonus there are several spares in each pack of lights to play with for little Jts :)
Gadget .

Good.
I don't have a big lots near here but there is a walmart.

I tried out the 65 cent each bright white leds from allelectronics. These are older and not as bright as the new ones, but still plenty bright especially when 5 are put together in parallel and put into a used-to-be frosted edison bulb.

Thanks for the tip,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 30, 2009, 02:26:19 PM

indeed mk1

i agree fully all i have said is not 100 percent accurate ... as i have verry limted electronics skills ...

i think induction ... transformer action but it is resonant tuned .. so that means pulsed ...

i know it is the colapse for sure ...

this i know beond this i have no idea

i have done 100 upon 100 of tests and such ...

on a # of things ... i cant be right ... and there is always more to it ....

i learn as i go .. all i can do ..

so altho be it knowen there many ways....

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 30, 2009, 04:44:57 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 30, 2009, 01:12:50 PM
@ist @all

I am not sure i come to the same conclusion as you do , the reason it light the led in both polarity is because the pickup coil winding goes in both direction , on that design if you have a pickup coil in one way it will only light the led in one way two .I think in one direction it works on induction only . That being said the important thing to see here is that you can get power out without creating a counter wave that kills efficiency, not having a scope , its really hard to confirm , but i tough its important to look at.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jiodkjo9hpk ( this is ist video)

Mark

So which one is more important, the induction wave or the collapsing wave?

I liken the motion to slosh, but it seems like the flux is all sloshing more in one direction than another.

@all, btw, for anyone who answered me on my diode test questions, this reading is not in fact coming out as Ohms, the readings for one diode are different - I have a diode testing setting on the DMM, and the units it measures out are in V, which I assume is volts,....

Can anyone shed light on this? THe resistance reading is one thing, then on the diode test setting, it is another.

For instance, on this 1n4001 diode, it has a resistance of 3.8 megaohms, and a diode test reading of 0.512 (v)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on March 30, 2009, 05:31:34 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 30, 2009, 04:44:57 PM
Can anyone shed light on this? THe resistance reading is one thing, then on the diode test setting, it is another.

For instance, on this 1n4001 diode, it has a resistance of 3.8 megaohms, and a diode test reading of 0.512 (v)

it could be the diode threshole voltage.

test it with a variable source voltage.
when it start to conduct remove the diode and read the voltage then compaire.

my DMM, both, show me the resistance.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gyulasun on March 30, 2009, 06:12:36 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 30, 2009, 04:44:57 PM

@all, btw, for anyone who answered me on my diode test questions, this reading is not in fact coming out as Ohms, the readings for one diode are different - I have a diode testing setting on the DMM, and the units it measures out are in V, which I assume is volts,....

Can anyone shed light on this? THe resistance reading is one thing, then on the diode test setting, it is another.

For instance, on this 1n4001 diode, it has a resistance of 3.8 megaohms, and a diode test reading of 0.512 (v)

When your DMM is in the resistance range the voltage difference between the probe tips it uses for the R measurement is normally much less than a Silicon diode's forward voltage drop of 0.6 - 0.7V so it can only show a high resistance (the diode cannot conduct due to lack of forward voltage).
If your DMM has a separate diode test setting, the voltage difference between the measuring tips is about 2 - 2.5V so it can open most of the diodes (even red LEDs but not white or blue ones) and the display shows directly the forward voltage of the diode under test at a certain (small) forward current like say 0.5 - 1mA, not more. This low current explains why your 1N4001 has .512V forward voltage (threshold).

Of course you could check the open voltage difference between the tips of your DMM in either the resistance or diode test ranges by measuring the DC voltage by another DMM set in DC voltage range.

If the resistance range has several settings like 200 Ohm, 2kOhm, 200kOhm etc the voltage difference of the tips changes (increasing) accordingly so you can see different resistance values for the same diode but voltage difference still way under any forward voltage value. This may not be so in case of older analog multimeters that were designed with higher output test voltages in their resistance range.

Bottom line is if you have the diode test setting in your DMM, then use it for diode or transistor B-E or C-B diode checkings but no much sense for using the resistance range for such tests.

rgds, Gyula

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 30, 2009, 07:00:39 PM

@jadaro

I don't have sufficient testing equipment , to determine that , but if you can get power out without effecting the efficiency of the original circuit , it may be a good way to go . It light led both direction because of the coil that go back and forth them self , and doesn't seam create any disadvantage to the pulsing circuit ,It may be easier on the transistor.

Mark

Edit also the coil has self inductance when done like that , witch doesn't seem to destroy the pole when powering something.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 30, 2009, 08:30:59 PM

Well I am now up to page 200 in updating the other diagrams topic. Whew! Not even halfway done.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 30, 2009, 09:27:10 PM

Good job Cap'n,

Your work makes the job of researching the older posts much easier.

Thank you for all of it.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on March 30, 2009, 10:22:48 PM

Added another pickup coil to the 7-7-70 that was getting ~250 volts. Now the first Pickup gets 230 volts and the new one gets 160 volts. When I run them through 2 seperate bridges then tie the bridges in series, I get 330 volts unloaded with a 1.2 volt 100ma input from a 1k ohm resistor. When I drop the resistor down to 500 ohm the dual bridge goes to 350 volts and the input goes to 120ma. Much better than the 250 volts at 125ma from the single Pickup coil. The second pickup coil doesn't get as many volts on it's own since part of the wind is not right next to the toroid. Pictures to come in the near future. Also since the 2 pickup coils are not equal in position relative to the toroid the circuit sings 2 seperate notes when it resonates. Dual tone for the win, maybe.. I'm going to wind a new one but wind the multiple pickups at the same time to even them out similar to the MK series. Will probably still end up with about 350 volts total for 2 pickups. Maybe I will drop the wire size to 30ga and squeeze in 4 pickup coils. I also plan on adding a third or forth pickup to this coil so I can see if it will resonate with 3 or more frequencies. Maybe I can make a whole orchestra from a single toroid :P

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 30, 2009, 11:21:37 PM

hazens1:

Excellent job man! Did you say this was from a single AA battery on your JT coils? 350 volts, now that is well within the Fuji territory some of us had been working in earlier. To my knowledge, no one has achieved this much output on hand wound toroids here thus far so.....very, very great job! I know one of Jeanna's goals was to reproduce our Fuji results using the regular JT type circuit and it appears you have now done so.

I know you said photos were forthcoming but can you please post a step by step, or schematic of your circuit as I know, myself included, other will want to replicate it. I am very excited by this so again, great job and thanks for posting.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 30, 2009, 11:32:57 PM

There seem to be a number of variations on the joule thief design... insofar as I can tell, there is flyback on the coil-to-base.

Has anyone thought about the flyback pulse charging the battery? ..this would require the resistor to be behind the coil and at the base of the transistor.

An initial idea. Diagram Included. Does anyone have the charging characteristics of a single AA rechargeable battery on hand?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 30, 2009, 11:36:34 PM

jadaro:

Flyback=back emf? If so, now you are talking Bedini here. He got it to work with his charger so now maybe we can employ similar ideas to do the same thing with our circuits?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 30, 2009, 11:44:31 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on March 30, 2009, 11:36:34 PM
jadaro:

Flyback=back emf? If so, now you are talking Bedini here. He got it to work with his charger so now maybe we can employ similar ideas to do the same thing with our circuits?

Bill

I'll be sure to keep an eye on it; after posting, it dawned on my that flyback might be employed on a second battery, then your Bedini came to mind; the whole thing would be solid state though, there wouldn't be anything moving except the ( holy grail ) magnetic field.

It would likely require a diode diversion from the flyback to the battery, I could use maybe a zener to regulate things? ..but these are funny devices that short out all the pulse. :) Anyway, the whole thing may be a flop on account of the losses of current.

As it stands, I think that there's a bit of waste going through from the positive, through the base and out of the emitter, but that's just how electricity flows, lol, now, I already made a jtc work without that resistor, and only on induction - it's a few pages back with a diagram, but this doesn't solve my problems with the transistor being overdriven, voltage wise.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 31, 2009, 12:00:25 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 30, 2009, 11:32:57 PM
There seem to be a number of variations on the joule thief design... insofar as I can tell, there is flyback on the coil-to-base.

Has anyone thought about the flyback pulse charging the battery? ..this would require the resistor to be behind the coil and at the base of the transistor.

An initial idea. Diagram Included. Does anyone have the charging characteristics of a single AA rechargeable battery on hand?

I am confused.

There are other things about this drawing that are different, but you have now put the base resistor where most of us have been putting it all along.

I see there are other differences like the cap and diode parallel to the led which is still in the expensive bjt position. and that cap at the base, well, [edit.] I guess it was gadget that did something like that to his fuji that ran the cfl for 12 hours.

I think way back jesus posted his circuit of his charging jt. I think Bill has already posted it on the circuits pages early, like page 2, maybe.

But really Jadaro, get rid of that led. It just takes power from the battery. A secondary of almost any number of turns - like even one- will light the led for virtually nothing. In fact usually, the amps use goes down when you add the led on the secondary. It certainly is less to run it on the secondary than that bjt place.

Try it, You'll like it! 8)

jeanna

(I have been installing software today. It is a welcome relief to look at a jtc!)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 31, 2009, 12:01:10 AM

Jadaro:

I would not worry too much about the transistor being overdriven. Gadgetmall said he sometimes uses 3 or 4 transistors wired together for protection. I just saw a youtube vid of a guy that had a simple Bedini motor and, God only knows why, it wasn't turning all that fast, he had something like 50 of the transistors all mounted on a board and wired together. I am guessing in parallel so I guess that would not raise the operating level that the transistors function, as far as start voltage. If you are interested, let me know and I will try to hunt up that vid. Maybe Al can chime in here with a thought or two.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pardon on March 31, 2009, 12:37:58 AM

this is not a real good drawing but i am new to drawing. this one i have been playing with a little bit. i think it wants more voltage/current but its fun to play with. i have made the leds blink but they are dim by adding a cap. but as a modified jt i get real good light from the leds. but i can't seem to get them to run in series. and i have not tried a secondary yet.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 31, 2009, 01:19:21 AM

Hi Pardon,

It is quite a nice drawing, in my opinion.

I will say it to you too. take out those leds from the bjt. They are only useful to make sure you have things connected right. I always use one, but then take it right out.

The special thing happens with the secondary/pick up.

Also, you have .92v at the no load. etc. What do you mean by that?
Are you meaning to say amps there?

It looks like a really good circuit. Just move those leds to a secondary. You will get very good light and at barely any amps cost. You will love it.

I can't codify it, xee can, but I usually get lots of bright lights when arranged in a parallel way.
In series is more problematic. It seems you need 3 to 5 additional wraps of the secondary for every new light you put in series.
I know that is not what I showed in january, but many since then have taken many turns for each additional light when put in series.

I am just trying to do something systematic with some of mine. I have a lot and sometimes the lights are bright with no draw and sometimes they are dim with a lot of draw. There are a lot of factors.

for instance, I was just checking something tonight and my eyes got blasted with 300millivolts!!!on the secondary as tested on the scope.

BTW what is the toroid you are using?

lots of questions, sorry,
what you have is a good jtc, though, after those lights are moved ;)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pardon on March 31, 2009, 01:29:04 AM

I found this so i thought i would post it here. i hope this may help out

THE TRANSFORMER
The secret of this circuit is the transformer.
We normally think of a transformer as a device with an input and output, with the voltage on the input and output being connected by a term called "turns ratio."
If the output has more turns than the input, the output voltage will be higher. This is called a setup
transformer. If the output has less turns than the input, the output voltage will be lower.
This applies to "normal" transformers where the voltage is rising and falling at a regular rate, commonly called a "sinewave."

But the transformer in this circuit is different.
The voltage applied to it is not rising and falling smoothly, and thus it does not work in normal "transformer mode."
The voltage is being applied and then turned off. When the voltage is applied, the primary winding (the 90 turn winding) produces magnetic flux. When the voltage is turned off, the magnetic flux collapses and produces a VERY HIGH voltage (in the REVERSE DIRECTION), in all the windings.
Our transformer is really a coil in flyback mode with a feedback winding.
The feedback winding delivers a voltage to the transistor to turn it on HARDER. If the winding is connected around the wrong way, the circuit will not work.

The other important factor about the transformer is the core material. There are many different types of
ferrite. Ferrite is a type of iron which is powdered very finely so that the magnetic lines that pass through the particles do not create eddy-currents. These eddy currents absorb the magnetic flux.
The circuit also employs a term called RE-GENERATION. This is the effect where a circuit is turned on slightly by a component (the base resistor in this example) and then the transistor turns itself on more and more until it is fully turned on. The feedback winding is configured so that the voltage it produces (actually the current it produces) is fed into the base to turn the transistor on. Thus the feedback winding is very clever. It produces energy and is delivered in a particular direction - in
other words it can be a positive or negative energy. In this case it produces positive energy, to turn the
transistor on harder.
This is called POSITIVE FEEDBACK as it turns the transistor ON during the active part of the cycle.
Now we come to the MAIN, PRIMARY or FLYBACK winding. This winding produces a high voltage during part of the cycle (the FLYBACK part of the cycle) and this is passed to the LED.
If the LED is removed, the transformer produces a high voltage with a low current, but when the LED is
inserted, an amazing thing happens. The energy from the transformer is converted to a lower voltage with a higher current. What actually happens is the LED absorbs the energy and turns it to light as soon as the voltage rises to 3.6v. We could achieve the same low-voltage, high current requirement, with less turns, but the number of turns has to be determined so the core does not saturate.
The voltage for the LED is produced when the transistor is switched off and the magnetic flux in the ferrite core collapses. The speed of the collapse produces a very high voltage in the OPPOSITE DIRECTION and that's why a positive voltage emerges from the end connected to the LED. These two facts are important to remember. The other important fact is called "transformer action." This is the action of magnetic flux. When a voltage is applied to a winding of a transformer or a coil of wire, a current will flow and this will produce magnetic flux. If another winding is present, the magnetic flux will cut the turns of this extra coil and produce a voltage in it. However, there is a very important point to remember. The magnetic flux can be: EXPANDING, STATIONARY or CONTRACTING.
When the magnetic flux is expanding, a voltage will appear in the second winding mentioned above.
When the magnetic flux is stationary, NO VOLTAGE will appear in the second winding.
When the magnetic flux is contracting a voltage will appear in the second winding with REVERSE
POLARITY. The size (the amplitude or "value") of the reverse voltage will depend on the speed of the collapsing magnetic flux. If the flux collapses quickly, the amplitude will be very high.
That's how the transistor turns itself on and on until it is fully turned on. At this point the current flowing through the circuit is a maximum but the flux is not expanding so the base of the transistor does not see the high "turn-on" energy and thus the transistor suddenly turns off.
The magnetic flux collapses and the transistor sees a reverse voltage on the base to keep it turned off until the flux is fully collapsed. The current through the resistor enters the base to start the cycle again.
From this you will be able to see how the transistor and transformer work.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on March 31, 2009, 03:15:04 AM

@Bill,
Thank you for the link to the YouTube address, I took a look at it, its pritty good.

@ Xee2 and Gadget,

ho ho ho, do I smell a competition or a challenge between you both, the first to get 100 LED's lit from the lowest voltage possible, in time for christmas?, nothing like a competition challenge to hone the electronic skills. Whats the prize? ;)

Lets make this interresting.
Now, do they have to be turned on all the time, or can they be made to work by being turned on and off so fast that the eye cannot see it happenning, or is there a limit of time they have to be lit, anything from 1 second, or 1 miinute or 10minutes or, for 1 hour.

@Gadget,
I'm having a field day, Bought my usual Silicon Chip magazine, inside for free was the Jaycar catalog, drool drool drool.
Christmas wish list time again lol

@all,
Inside the above mag is an article on a Micro Curent Adaptor, I havent read it yet, but from a quick look through, some of us here might be able to use it. This is a Kitt that one attatches to the DMM meter.

@Jeanna
You asked me about amps on a DMM, the above might be of use to you.

Puppy Linix, I went to the below address because I heard there was a program called Puppy Linix, but when I got there I was bamboozeled by it all.
What actual file would I need to download to install on my older laptop? I want to try this out.
http://www.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_111196/article.html what do you think of this jeanna?

@all
Silicon Chip has some good stuff. Scroll down the page to see the LED current limiter
http://www.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_30372/article.html this could stop LEDs turning into fuses.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on March 31, 2009, 03:52:41 AM

@Pardon,

Thankyou for posting the explination on the whole operation of the Joule Thief, even this old fogie understood it, well I'll need to read it a couple of more times for it to be understood completly, :)

Seriously, Pardon, it is the best way this has been explained that I have seen so far, thankyou ;D

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on March 31, 2009, 08:07:17 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on March 30, 2009, 11:21:37 PM
hazens1:

Excellent job man! Did you say this was from a single AA battery on your JT coils? 350 volts, now that is well within the Fuji territory some of us had been working in earlier. To my knowledge, no one has achieved this much output on hand wound toroids here thus far so.....very, very great job! I know one of Jeanna's goals was to reproduce our Fuji results using the regular JT type circuit and it appears you have now done so.

I know you said photos were forthcoming but can you please post a step by step, or schematic of your circuit as I know, myself included, other will want to replicate it. I am very excited by this so again, great job and thanks for posting.

Bill

Here ya go. I was able to get 365 volts from a 1.3 volt 125ma input. More testing and such to come when I have time. The added Pickup coil is the Green wire mixed in with the original Pickup in Gold wire. All 26ga wire from www.gobrushless.com, it's called newbie wire since you can get the same gauge in 3 different colors :P

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on March 31, 2009, 10:47:05 AM

Pardon,

I am not sure where you found this information but I am not sure if they are talking about a joule thief. The explanation doesn't make sense.

In the jt circuit, when power is first applied the transistor is fully turned on.
There is a small magnetic field setup on the inductor.
Flow through the Collector/Emitter junction flows.
This sets up a larger magnetic field in the inductor in the opposite direction.
This opposite field chokes out the flow to the base turning the transistor off.
When transistor is turned off, flow stops at the Collector/Emitter junction removing the magnetic field.
With the field removed, power is now able to flow again to the base of the transistor and it starts all over again.

This is why you are getting the high frequency on the jt.
As soon as power is applied, the circuit quickly quenches it or turns it off.

Also the reason the inductor to the base is weaker than the C/E inductor is that the base of the transistor only requires a small current to turn on the transistor. But, when the transistor is turned on, it is pretty much a direct short ( large current) across the C/E junction.

Tim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on March 31, 2009, 11:43:15 AM

Yeah, I'm not so sure either...

Certainly most of the story is correct in that it accords with standard
transformer theory, and the positive feedback part is explained quite
nicely.
But I do get the impression this is more of a general explanation,
much like the Mag-Amp explanation(s).
Sure, a JT is a form of mag-amp setup, just like it is a form of
boost-converter setup, which is a specific transformer circuit,
which a flyback transformer is another variation of...
... so yeah they are all related and share certain characteristics,
some are largely similar, others have specific differences.

But is there really a problem with how the JT works?
I thought it was fairly clear?
The two JT coils act like a boost converter, switch the transistor,
this causes regular pulses in the JT coils and regular flux
pulsing in the core. The pickup coils now do exactly that, they
pick up that flux in the form of a moving charge. Ratio of pickup
coil turns to JT coil turns should determine the voltage produced
by the pickup coil. It's as simple as that.
The only thing I still find a bit unclear is whether or not there is
any actual power gain. Some posts from a while back seemed to
indicate an actual gain in power, as in the actual energy output
in watts being larger than the energy input (in watts). However,
the suggestive posts along that line seem to have disappeared
now and seem to have been followed up by posts mentioning
voltage gain only... and that is entirely possible and understandable
as transformer effect.
Sure, output in the order of 100s of volts with an input of only 1.5 volts
is quite remarkable, but possible and understandable. So I assume
nobody is actually claiming power gain, and the voltage gain well,
that's cool but not magic nor OU.

Still, JTs are quite cool little things! :)
just the other day I bought a couple of those cheap stick-on LED lights
that you see so many of in shops nowadays... This type needs 3 AAAs
to run 3 ultrabrights... Or at least, that's what they want you to think.
After cracking one open it turns out there's zero circuitry in there, only
the LEDs, a little switch, and a little resistor. I can simply stick one
AAA in there, and hook a tiny bead-wound JT to the battery and the
connector, and the thing works like a charm. Now I can light all of those
lamps on one pack of AAAs, instead of having to buy 4 packs of batteries. :)
Oh, and it's fun to watch your friends be amazed when you show them
you're not using 3 batteries but rather 1 batt and 1 tiny gizmo. ;D

Kind regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 31, 2009, 11:45:37 AM

@ hazens1

Quote from: hazens1 on March 31, 2009, 08:07:17 AM
I was able to get 365 volts from a 1.3 volt 125ma input.

Excellent. The voltage coming out of the rectifiers is DC. But, the DC voltage is going up and down in voltage with the input voltage to the pickup coil. Because the coils are on the same toroid, the voltages out of the two rectifiers will probably go up and down together. But by adding capacitors between the positive and negative outputs of each rectifier you can keep the outputs of each at the maximum voltage and then if you put the caps in series you will get the sum of the maximum voltages. It is always a good idea to use caps across the output of rectifiers to smooth the DC ripple. If you add the two caps you may be able to get a slightly higher output voltage.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gyulasun on March 31, 2009, 12:07:01 PM

Quote from: MrMag on March 31, 2009, 10:47:05 AM

I am not sure where you found this information but I am not sure if they are talking about a joule thief. The explanation doesn't make sense.

Hi Tim,

He probably found that info here: http://www.talkingelectronics.com/projects/LEDTorchCircuits/LEDTorchCircuits-P1.html

My take on this jt circuit is it is a blocking oscillator and works like that.

rgds, Gyula

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 31, 2009, 02:56:55 PM

@all

Hi , Again.

Current and Voltage Ratios. In a well-designed induction coil the energy in the secondary, i.e., the induced current, is for all practical purposes equal to that of the primary current, yet the values of the voltage and the amperage of the induced current may vary widely from the values of the voltage and the amperage of the primary current. With simple periodic currents, such as the commercial alternating lighting currents, the ratio between the voltage in the primary and that in the secondary will be equal to the ratio of the number of turns in the primary to the number of turns in the secondary. _{Since the energy in the two circuits will be practically the same, it follows that the ratio between the current in the primary and that in the secondary will be equal to the ratio of the number of turns in the secondary to the number of turns in the primary}. In telephony, where the currents are not simple periodic currents, and where the variations in current strength take place at different rates, such a law as that just stated does not hold for all cases; but it may be stated in general that the induced currents will be of higher voltage and smaller current strength than those of the primary in all coils where the secondary winding has a greater number of turns than the primary, and vice versÃ¢.

@koen1

You are the only one that had some comment last time, i posted this.
Yes in a single pickup coil design there is no ou. The law say same current in all the coils.
But that law also say the current is the same in all the coil, The law is the law , but a good lawyer would tell you to go technical, so i will be the lawyer today.

Since the current is the same in all the coil primary and secondary that are equal but at different voltage, and all the coil are the same , you put more pickup coil on there by law the current will be the same in all coil (btw you can't decreace the jt side, so therefore all coil will have the current that the jt coil has by law)they will still have the same current , now those pickup coil are all containing the same current as the jt coil , now tell me is that more or less ? So lets do maths
so the same current in all pickup coil , that are equal to jt coils , we know only one pickup coil has the same so you need at lest 2 pickup coil to get more current and interesting result.

Last time i just posted the law , and ask if you are a positive guy, because i think if it works for Bedini(on some design you clearly see many coil windings but only 2 are used ?, the guys is telling us about it , but not giving it up he doesn't uses those for triger believe me , those with Bedini's maybe time is for some new coils.)
As a Lawyer I think we have a case .

We need to stop looking at the box !

The last time i posted i should have made it more to the point, really sorry about that.

Mark

source http://www.gutenberg.org/files/15617/15617-h/15617-h.htm page 166

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on March 31, 2009, 04:40:33 PM

MK1,

The current is not the same in the primary and secondary, the power or volt/amps is, excluding any losses. By adding additional coils to the toroid you are basically adding additional secondaries which will split the power output between them.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 31, 2009, 04:43:11 PM

@MrMag

Can you prove it either way? That is the question?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on March 31, 2009, 04:52:04 PM

MK1,

Let me explain it this way.

Lets say I have a transformer that has a 1:1 ratio. This same transformer has 10 secondaries on it.

What I am saying is that if I feed in 120V at 10 amps, each secondary will have 120V at 1 amp.

What I think you are saying is that the outputs should be 120V at 10 amps each.

Is this what you are trying to say?? Maybe I lost something.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 31, 2009, 05:14:59 PM

Quote from: MrMag on March 31, 2009, 04:52:04 PM
MK1,
The output i
Let me explain it this way.

Lets say I have a transformer that has a 1:1 ratio. This same transformer has 10 secondaries on it.

What I am saying is that if I feed in 120V at 10 amps, each secondary will have 120V at 1 amp.

What I think you are saying is that the outputs should be 120V at 10 amps each.

Is this what you are trying to say?? Maybe I lost something.

i think all coil will have 120 10 amp each.

You said your self 1 for 1 ratio so there equal, no gain here. but that is with 1 primary and one secondary , but the laws say the current is the same in all the coil , so 10 amps is 10amps in each coil , it doesn't say to devide the output per secondary, you do !

Can you prove that ? That is the question.
There is nothing that show the the amps is divided by number of secondary .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 31, 2009, 06:39:52 PM

Quote from: electricme on March 31, 2009, 03:15:04 AM

Puppy Linix, I went to the below address because I heard there was a program called Puppy Linix, but when I got there I was bamboozeled by it all.
What actual file would I need to download to install on my older laptop? I want to try this out.
http://www.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_111196/article.html what do you think of this jeanna?

jim

Yes,

Take a look and try it out.
The open source community is alive and well in linux land.

Go for it on one of those older computers of yours.
It seems to support firefox
I saw sea monkey also
And flash player
What more could you want.
A gui? yup, it has one of those too
The size is too small for me to remember... ;D Oh well, it is very small which means fast.

Linux is the way of the future, at least MY future ;) .

so in short. IMO...Try it, Jim and please remember to let me know.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 31, 2009, 07:29:00 PM

Quote from: jeanna on March 31, 2009, 12:00:25 AM
I am confused.

There are other things about this drawing that are different, but you have now put the base resistor where most of us have been putting it all along.

I see there are other differences like the cap and diode parallel to the led which is still in the expensive bjt position. and that cap at the base, well, [edit.] I guess it was gadget that did something like that to his fuji that ran the cfl for 12 hours.

I think way back jesus posted his circuit of his charging jt. I think Bill has already posted it on the circuits pages early, like page 2, maybe.

But really Jadaro, get rid of that led. It just takes power from the battery. A secondary of almost any number of turns - like even one- will light the led for virtually nothing. In fact usually, the amps use goes down when you add the led on the secondary. It certainly is less to run it on the secondary than that bjt place.

Try it, You'll like it! 8)

jeanna

(I have been installing software today. It is a welcome relief to look at a jtc!)

I actually modified thw wrong circuit diagram and still posted it, it was late. I will create a new drawing - my problem is all my circuit diagrams are 'saved-as' from an original...I need to do some serious diagram work before I can repost my idea. It's too late for me to withdraw the design at this point.

Quote from: Pirate88179 on March 31, 2009, 12:01:10 AM
Jadaro:

I would not worry too much about the transistor being overdriven. Gadgetmall said he sometimes uses 3 or 4 transistors wired together for protection. I just saw a youtube vid of a guy that had a simple Bedini motor and, God only knows why, it wasn't turning all that fast, he had something like 50 of the transistors all mounted on a board and wired together. I am guessing in parallel so I guess that would not raise the operating level that the transistors function, as far as start voltage. If you are interested, let me know and I will try to hunt up that vid. Maybe Al can chime in here with a thought or two.

Bill

He probably had that many in series to drop the voltage across the multiple components - which means jack when a high voltage pulse slams into a PN junction wall ...it would still have the first junction to deal with. But I've been advised on the characteristics of components, they're capable of handling a bit more than what's reported, in well-manufactured pieces, that is.

-weather is bad here, will post more later;

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on March 31, 2009, 08:26:37 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 31, 2009, 05:14:59 PM
i think all coil will have 120 10 amp each.

You said your self 1 for 1 ratio so there equal, no gain here. but that is with 1 primary and one secondary , but the laws say the current is the same in all the coil , so 10 amps is 10amps in each coil , it doesn't say to devide the output per secondary, you do !

Can you prove that ? That is the question.
There is nothing that show the the amps is divided by number of secondary .

Mark

In a transformer, power in = power out. They are rated in volt amps. 120 volt in at 10 amps is 1200 volt/amps. The output no matter how may secondaries can only supply you with this amount be it 12 volts at 100 amps or 1200 volts at 1 amp.
If what you were saying is true, everyone would have a transformer in their house.

Sorry, but this is basic transformer theory. How would you like me to prove it? I would be more than happy to prove it to you but since this is basic theory, I think it more important for you to prove to me otherwise.
I really hope you can. I will then run out and buy a transformer for my house.

Tim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 31, 2009, 08:32:41 PM

@MrMag

Basic,lol . its all i can say.

If the transformer ration is 1 to 1 , why would you get less? 1 for 1 on every secondary coil , what magic law get the current down per/coil , where is that in that basic law that also say all coils are the same .

Think about it before answering.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on March 31, 2009, 09:05:40 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 31, 2009, 08:32:41 PM
@MrMag

Basic,lol . its all i can say.

If the transformer ration is 1 to 1 , why would you get less? 1 for 1 on every secondary coil , what magic law get the current down per/coil , where is that in that basic law that also say all coils are the same .

Think about it before answering.

Mark

First off, 1:1 ratio is in regards to the number of windings which reflect the voltage in vs. voltage out. I think you need to do some further research. I am sorry if it seems that I am picking on you, i am not. I jst want to set the record straight to those who may not know.

Quote from Electrical Power System and Transmission Network.

As you know, the amount of power used by the load of an electrical circuit is equal to the current in the load times the voltage across the load, or P = EI. If, for example, the load in an electrical circuit requires an input of 2 amperes at 10 volts (20 watts) and the source is capable of delivering only 1 ampere at 20 volts, the circuit could not normally be used with this particular source. However, if a transformer is connected between the source and the load, the voltage can be decreased (stepped down) to 10 volts and the current increased (stepped up) to 2 amperes. Notice in the above case that the power remains the same. That is, 20 volts times 1 ampere equals the same power as 10 volts times 2 amperes.

quote from the link you posted

Current and Voltage Ratios.
In a well-designed induction coil the energy in the secondary, i.e., the induced current, is for all practical purposes equal to that of the primary current, yet the values of the voltage and the amperage of the induced current may vary widely from the values of the voltage and the amperage of the primary current. With simple periodic currents, such as the commercial alternating lighting currents, the ratio between the voltage in the primary and that in the secondary will be equal to the ratio of the number of turns in the primary to the number of turns in the secondary. Since the energy in the two circuits will be practically the same, it follows that the ratio between the current in the primary and that in the secondary will be equal to the ratio of the number of turns in the secondary to the number of turns in the primary. In telephony, where the currents are not simple periodic currents, and where the variations in current strength take place at different rates, such a law as that just stated does not hold for all cases; but it may be stated in general that the induced currents will be of higher voltage and smaller current strength than those of the primary in all coils where the secondary winding has a greater number of turns than the primary, and vice versÃ¢.

Note that the use of the word current is not used to mean amperage but total power.

I hope this will satisfy you, or at least all others. Does anybody else disagree with me ????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 31, 2009, 09:11:36 PM

@MrMag

I am not feeling picked on , don't worry about that , but i am afraid you are missing my point.

But thank for trying.

Mark

All laws are with 2 coil design and not many people saw the need to put more coil since , they can easily understand it.
But its all there.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 31, 2009, 09:19:13 PM

Quote from: MrMag on March 31, 2009, 09:05:40 PM

...
In a well-designed induction coil the energy in the secondary, i.e., the induced current, is for all practical purposes equal to that of the primary current, yet the values of the voltage and the amperage of the induced current may vary widely from the values of the voltage and the amperage of the primary current.

...I think what you have highlighted here is an emphasis on what the main passage suggests - that someone can vary the number of turns and thus, vary the voltage and current widely.

Not that varying one will incidentally cause wide ranges of either without bound or reason, ...that is to say.

And you would get less ( as it stands, a moot point indeed, that is ) that if electricity flows through even a small portion of conductor it looses something, the degree of measurability is thrown into question, which is why we put up with tolerances, throw fixes into the design, and move on. The inductor is actually a fix for some problem in circuit design, and a kink in yet another - each part will ultimately have it's place.

Having a perfect transformer is almost an absurd thought - not that there haven't been absurd ( working ) thoughts before.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on March 31, 2009, 09:20:15 PM

Quote from: Pardon on March 31, 2009, 01:29:04 AM
I found this so i thought i would post it here. i hope this may help out

THE TRANSFORMER
The secret of this circuit is the transformer.
We normally think of a transformer as a device with an input and output, with the voltage on the input and output being connected by a term called "turns ratio."
If the output has more turns than the input, the output voltage will be higher. This is called a setup
transformer. If the output has less turns than the input, the output voltage will be lower.
This applies to "normal" transformers where the voltage is rising and falling at a regular rate, commonly called a "sinewave."

But the transformer in this circuit is different.
The voltage applied to it is not rising and falling smoothly, and thus it does not work in normal "transformer mode."
The voltage is being applied and then turned off. When the voltage is applied, the primary winding (the 90 turn winding) produces magnetic flux. When the voltage is turned off, the magnetic flux collapses and produces a VERY HIGH voltage (in the REVERSE DIRECTION), in all the windings.
Our transformer is really a coil in flyback mode with a feedback winding.
The feedback winding delivers a voltage to the transistor to turn it on HARDER. If the winding is connected around the wrong way, the circuit will not work.

The other important factor about the transformer is the core material. There are many different types of
ferrite. Ferrite is a type of iron which is powdered very finely so that the magnetic lines that pass through the particles do not create eddy-currents. These eddy currents absorb the magnetic flux.
The circuit also employs a term called RE-GENERATION. This is the effect where a circuit is turned on slightly by a component (the base resistor in this example) and then the transistor turns itself on more and more until it is fully turned on. The feedback winding is configured so that the voltage it produces (actually the current it produces) is fed into the base to turn the transistor on. Thus the feedback winding is very clever. It produces energy and is delivered in a particular direction - in
other words it can be a positive or negative energy. In this case it produces positive energy, to turn the
transistor on harder.
This is called POSITIVE FEEDBACK as it turns the transistor ON during the active part of the cycle.
Now we come to the MAIN, PRIMARY or FLYBACK winding. This winding produces a high voltage during part of the cycle (the FLYBACK part of the cycle) and this is passed to the LED.
If the LED is removed, the transformer produces a high voltage with a low current, but when the LED is
inserted, an amazing thing happens. The energy from the transformer is converted to a lower voltage with a higher current. What actually happens is the LED absorbs the energy and turns it to light as soon as the voltage rises to 3.6v. We could achieve the same low-voltage, high current requirement, with less turns, but the number of turns has to be determined so the core does not saturate.
The voltage for the LED is produced when the transistor is switched off and the magnetic flux in the ferrite core collapses. The speed of the collapse produces a very high voltage in the OPPOSITE DIRECTION and that's why a positive voltage emerges from the end connected to the LED. These two facts are important to remember. The other important fact is called "transformer action." This is the action of magnetic flux. When a voltage is applied to a winding of a transformer or a coil of wire, a current will flow and this will produce magnetic flux. If another winding is present, the magnetic flux will cut the turns of this extra coil and produce a voltage in it. However, there is a very important point to remember. The magnetic flux can be: EXPANDING, STATIONARY or CONTRACTING.
When the magnetic flux is expanding, a voltage will appear in the second winding mentioned above.
When the magnetic flux is stationary, NO VOLTAGE will appear in the second winding.
When the magnetic flux is contracting a voltage will appear in the second winding with REVERSE
POLARITY. The size (the amplitude or "value") of the reverse voltage will depend on the speed of the collapsing magnetic flux. If the flux collapses quickly, the amplitude will be very high.
That's how the transistor turns itself on and on until it is fully turned on. At this point the current flowing through the circuit is a maximum but the flux is not expanding so the base of the transistor does not see the high "turn-on" energy and thus the transistor suddenly turns off.
The magnetic flux collapses and the transistor sees a reverse voltage on the base to keep it turned off until the flux is fully collapsed. The current through the resistor enters the base to start the cycle again.
From this you will be able to see how the transistor and transformer work.

Hi Pardon . Nice Drawing . It looks Very similar to the one i made 300 or so post back :) The Vr / cap adjust the Bias of the base and creates a resonate tank . Mine is 100centertapped x 30 secondary running 4 leds at .81 ma total or .20 ma per led . I still have this circuit running now for 3 months . i added one of my 5 volt glass solar cells to it and just a wee bit of light a day keeps it running strong ! Notice How Jeanna secondary works wonders ;)

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on March 31, 2009, 10:16:38 PM

Quote from: electricme on March 31, 2009, 03:15:04 AM
@ Xee2 and Gadget,

ho ho ho, do I smell a competition or a challenge between you both, the first to get 100 LED's lit from the lowest voltage possible, in time for christmas?, nothing like a competition challenge to hone the electronic skills. Whats the prize? Wink

Lets make this interresting.
Now, do they have to be turned on all the time, or can they be made to work by being turned on and off so fast that the eye cannot see it happenning, or is there a limit of time they have to be lit, anything from 1 second, or 1 miinute or 10minutes or, for 1 hour.

@Gadget,
I'm having a field day, Bought my usual Silicon Chip magazine, inside for free was the Jaycar catalog, drool drool drool.
Christmas wish list time again lol

Hy Jim . I know what you mean about catalog wishin . I spend days looking over each item and what i will do with it . heheheh, > I wonder if Dick Smith still sends out Flyer's . They used to have some cool stuff. I know one thing they got that is Unique(Thanks) BTW . I got a little something going your way . I will just let it be another surprise . I am doing well in the kit biz (Thank you all for supporting Asia and I ) and its time ..
yes sound like a nice side project to light up 100 . I already am lighting 20 now with less than .. well lest see i won't spoil it buy stating My ma draw but it beats My old record by a factor of X . :)

the Prize . Christmas ... . Hmmm . .I'll donate somthing ..

L8r

Gadgetmall

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 31, 2009, 10:36:44 PM

@all

Logic Circuit for toroid!

http://www.google.com/patents?id=dmZVAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA1&dq=toroidal+power+inductor+unit&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=0_1

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 31, 2009, 11:26:59 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 31, 2009, 10:36:44 PM
@all

Logic Circuit for toroid!

http://www.google.com/patents?id=dmZVAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA1&dq=toroidal+power+inductor+unit&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=0_1

...if every patent were written so that an idiot could understand the device, then the world would be a much better place. The last few dozen patents were written as such, the more recent they are, the harder they are to understand.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pardon on March 31, 2009, 11:37:38 PM

@Jeanna the no load meaning is no connection but just measuring the battery voltage. and i am using a salvaged 3/4 inch black toroid from a computer supply. so far it's my best one.

@Electricme your welcome for the information. if you or anyone finds any problems with it feel free to change it and make it better. reading it myself sure cleared up how JT's work.

@ Mr Mag you may be right i my self do not understand but what was written sounded like what i am seeing with the circuit i posted, plus it makes since to me.

@Gyulasum yes that web site is where i copied the transformer information from. but i did not get all the information he had posted on his version of lighting a led. after all he uses 2 transistors at 80 ma and 1.2 volts. and after adding some tuning parts he gets his circuit down to about 20 ma draw

@Gadgetmall thanks i guess it is very much like the one you posted. thanks for pointing that out i really didn't realise it until you let me know. wow your ckt was one i wanted to build so i am going to update my ckt to the one you made. thanks again

@all i only posted my version of the ckt because some one had said their ckt blinked and they said they didn't know why or how they did it. well i did the same thing and i wanted to know how to make a jt blink so i found that if i changed the resistance to a higher resistance and added a electro cap i could make my ckt blink. then i found the transistor information so i posted it because i could see what was being explained was happening in my ckt. and with my own eyes and not with a scope. if that makes any since. so now i have a strobe light JT.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 01, 2009, 12:52:23 AM

Hi everyone,

I have a question. I am wondering where is the ground in a jtc? And, could it be that one is needed? The battery is not the ground once the circuit goes into the secondary.

The reason I am wondering this is because I have noticed that when I touch the secondary with my hand in any way, the scope often shows well over 100 volts. But without my hand it might see only 30volts.

Remember this is NOT a plug in scope, so there is no AC from the wall and no ground from the wall to confound this. (Or help if it is needed.)

I don't know what capacitive coupling is, but I know people get told that is what does interesting things that don't count, like make the fluoro go on etc. So, I wanted to be sure I wasn't making capacitive coupling happen, so wandering in the dark, so to speak, I pinched the secondary with the metal pliers and put it on the table and let go. 114volts. But when that is not attached, 32 or 12 volts.

IF there is a "normal" explanation for this, would someone please give it?

Do you suppose a ground is needed on the jtc when the secondary is functioning?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 01, 2009, 01:11:42 AM

Yeah,
I just tried another one.

115v on only one secondary wire makes this my best jt toroid.

I clipped a 24 inch alligator clip to the other side of the wire while the scope was reading it, and let the clip rest on the floor, and the volts shot up to 237v.

Maybe I am the only one that missed this, but if not... there it is!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 01, 2009, 01:22:07 AM

hmm, interesting, perhaps it's the magnetic fields of the earth and the generated flux that are reacting to one another?

A dimple in the ambient field.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 01, 2009, 03:05:35 AM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on April 01, 2009, 01:11:42 AM
I clipped a 24 inch alligator clip to the other side of the wire while the scope was reading it, and let the clip rest on the floor, and the volts shot up to 237v.

Where are your scope probes attached? Try taking the 24" lead and touch it to various parts of the circuit. It would seem that you have a higher voltage somewhere that is coupling to the lead.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on April 01, 2009, 06:27:31 AM

@Mark/MK1, @MrMag, and a little wave to Pardon ;)

Well it looks like MrMag has hit exactly the same snag as I did.
Transformer theory does state that one primary with N turns
with 10 secondaries with equal number of turns each, is similar to
having one N turn primary and one 10N turn secondary.

So you see, MK1s claims of getting out 120V 10A in each secondary
seems entirely contradictory to transformer theory, which states
each secondary much see only 10% of the total voltamps, and in
total all secondaries together must see a total of 100% the input.
Minus losses of course, but that aside.

This is exactly what had me confused (and is starting to get me confused again ;));
MK1 seems to have been claiming to get the full input energy from each
seperate pickup coil, while I have tried and just don't see that happening in
my little experiments...
... what I see in my experiments seems to be exactly what transformer theory
states: when I use 1 primary JT and one "pickup" coil, I get out almost exactly
what I put in, which is almost exactly what the basic JT puts out without pickup coils.
When I use multiple pickup coils, the output per coil drops. When I decrease
the number of turns per pickup so that the total number of turns for all pickups
combined is equal to the original number of turns on a single pickup coil,
and I wire them together, I effectively have a single pickup coil again and this
puts out exactly that same power.
I do not see that every pickup coil puts out the full input power individually.
I see them put out a total that is equal to the input.

So Mark, I am not out to debunk you or anything ;) but I still am quite
amazed at the output you are getting.
I just don't get it. ;) ;D

Do you think it has something to do with the core material you are using, perhaps?
I am just fishing for possible explanations here...

Kind regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on April 01, 2009, 07:26:11 AM

Quote from: jeanna on April 01, 2009, 01:11:42 AM
Yeah,
I just tried another one.

115v on only one secondary wire makes this my best jt toroid.

I clipped a 24 inch alligator clip to the other side of the wire while the scope was reading it, and let the clip rest on the floor, and the volts shot up to 237v.

Maybe I am the only one that missed this, but if not... there it is!

jeanna

Jeanna I have also noticed the effect of touching the coil and seeing the voltage go up . Its producing a strange reading much like a Fugi circuit being read with a dmm . Goes crazy reading voltages from it . Possibley due to Very High Frequency or maybe Rf ? ,I'll try and wrap it with Al foil then ground it say at the screw on an electracial outlet wall plate . .

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 01, 2009, 09:42:29 AM

@koen1

I never claimed 120 v 10 amp ? You guys are really good at not making any attempt to understand, what i am saying.
Its just real sad...

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 01, 2009, 10:11:09 AM

@all

Now that we can get so high voltages with a single AAA battery. I was watching a video from @lidmotor about a LED box he made that utilizes the swap switch idea from @kubikop.

I made a composition of the circuit mixed with @gadgetmall's tank (pot and cap).
And after understanding the way the switch swaps the battery I thought that we can create if it has not been created already, a commutator to do the same thing automatically or a very well done and simple enough flip flop situation, that will swap the batteries all the time while the motor or circuit is running.

In this case it is a Joule thief circuit. But it can be used with a pulse motor after attaining the desired inexpensive on parts and on voltage or current used circuit.

also we can just use it as @kubikop designed it and switch it every day.
Any opinions, ideas?

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on April 01, 2009, 11:58:42 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on April 01, 2009, 09:42:29 AM
@koen1

I never claimed 120 v 10 amp ?

Hmm well okay maybe you didn't actually claim getting that output,
but when MrMag posted the following:

Quote
Lets say I have a transformer that has a 1:1 ratio. This same transformer has 10 secondaries on it.

What I am saying is that if I feed in 120V at 10 amps, each secondary will have 120V at 1 amp.

What I think you are saying is that the outputs should be 120V at 10 amps each.

Is this what you are trying to say?? Maybe I lost something.

(http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg167137#msg167137)

you did reply:

Quotei think all coil will have 120 10 amp each.

(http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg167145#msg167145)

So indeed you did not say you are getting that as actual output in a working JT,
but you do seem to be suggesting this is what is happening in your JT setups...

And all I am saying is, exactly what I have been saying for a while now,
that when I test that with my own JT, what I see is exactly what MrMag describes
and is exactly NOT what you describe.
The reason this has me somewhat confused and frustrated is that I really want to
replicate that disproportionally high output that you describe, but I haven't seen
a single hint of such disproportionally high output in any of my own tests.

QuoteYou guys are really good at not making any attempt to understand, what i am saying.

Well I find that a bit insulting to be honest.
I've been trying to understand how you get that disproportionally high output for quite some time,
otherwise why do you think I keep bringing it up? I can assure you I do not do it because it gives
me pleasure to keep whining about the same subject... although I admit it may look like it does ;)
I went quiet and stopped bringing it up for a little while since nobody seems to be able or willing
to say much about it that makes the thing understandable, and in fact nobody else really does claim
such disproportionate output, apparently.
But now that it was brought up by MrMag again, hey why not revisit the weirdness. ;)

QuoteIts just real sad...

Well, from my perspective it's more frustrating to hear you repeat the same story about
a disproportionally high output which does not appear to accord with transformer theory
nor with my own experiments.
I am trying to understand what you are saying and so far it does not appear to make sense.
This is not due to unwillingness on my part. I want to believe. ;)

But hey, if it is impossible to make us understand what is apparently a clear picture in your mind,
and if this results in you becoming frustrated or fed up with my replies,
then perhaps I should just shut up, conclude that you are apparently magically seeing output
that nobody else sees, and stop worrying about what seems to be a very interesting discrepancy.
I don't like to do that because I prefer to understand things and this is something that does not compute.

At the moment, however, it seems like we're in a sort of stalemate, where you keep repeating
your view which involves an output of N times the input with N pickup coils, while I and MrMag now too
keep repeating that transformer theory says input and output energy must be equal and there is
no magic multiplication of the output by increasing the number of coils. That is clearly not getting us
anywhere.

I don't want to upset you or anything so I shall try to refrain from posting anything regarding this
stalemate.
If you feel like trying to explain what you do see and I am apparently missing, I am all ears. :)

Kind regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on April 01, 2009, 12:08:40 PM

@Jesus: looks like a neat combo of battery swapper and JT...

Can you please explain what exactly the use is of swapping the batteries on a JT input?

Is the idea to recharge one of the batteries while using the other as source,
or something like that?

Regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on April 01, 2009, 01:15:20 PM

Koen1,

Ditto, couldn't of said it better myself.

It is sad though that we are requested to prove basic theory when the ones with results outside the norm argue without explanation or technical results.

I do believe that OU is possible with pulsed DC. However, I feel this will only happen with high voltage DC, not the 1.5 or 3 volts that are being used here.
The basic use of a jt to light multiple LED's and possibly CFL's at this low voltage is very impressive, but I really don't think OU is involved. I really do hope that I am wrong.

Tim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 01, 2009, 01:17:11 PM

Quote from: Koen1 on April 01, 2009, 12:08:40 PM
@Jesus: looks like a neat combo of battery swapper and JT...

Can you please explain what exactly the use is of swapping the batteries on a JT input?

Is the idea to recharge one of the batteries while using the other as source,
or something like that?

Regards,
Koen

That was the idea of a guy called @kubikop.
He made a circuit that uses the source battery and recharges the other battery as you said and when it is switched the other day it use the charging battery as source and viceverza.

The goal here is to acomplish the same with the least parts as posssible and to use it to move something greater and use that other moving thing or another circuit as a recharger to a battery bank. The energy can be used on many ways.

Even though there could be a pick up coil that can be used to recharge a battery or batteries while the joule thief works swapping back and forth, I dont know if it could be to much load to it.

Do you have any ideas on how to exchange the two positives as this switch does but just with a transistor maybe or a zener diode that triggers when a certain voltage is attained and shuts off after getting out of that voltage directing the voltage pass to one battery or the other?

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 01, 2009, 01:17:53 PM

@koen1

All i have been saying is , if you have a 2 coil transformer 1 to 1 turn ratio , if we take away lost energy and tell there 1 to 1
the secondary should have the primary current , and adding other coil will not effect those 2 coil results and you will have current in the other pickup coil .voltage and current will be determine by turn ratio . If its not the case the law that is wrong.

Think transformer with many secondary windings.

Edit Btw the fact that you can't get my high voltage results are more representative of your toroid being not good , more then anything else , its a green one inch toroid , i have only one that are giving me those really high voltage, but if you tell me what you got , i may have one , and will test to see the result you can expect. I have no reason for laying about voltage since it has no amps reading to show current . One of the things i have on all of others here is i made over 30 winding different design over the same toroid and tested all of them in same fashion. Since my test are always one the same toroid help me improve on design , because i see real result , not data subjected to other toroid and transistor and get confused by it. Also i can tell you how to do it and made pictures of them(ist got almost as good result with a charcoal toroid for gold mine but some of his are also because of is diode are germanium)if you still don't get those result , no one got bad results with my design , if they did they have a bad toroid. also you need to tune the freq to the toroid with a pot .

Many thing can happen when someone try to build this , not everyone thinks alike and many make modification , modification are part of learning , but they are no design of mine . So i don't really feel bad about it.
Some have a hard time making there coil tight on the toroid , not my fault either , it not hard you hold the coil on every turn the first 3 turns are a bit loose but at the forth you should be able to make them nice and tight .
Sorry if i just am better. Anyone can play chess , but try me !

Anyway , most of the design on this tread i have tried and told you about the best.

My toroid was taken from comun mode ac inductor its green most likely high flux , Get i clues?

And where are your picture of those toroid ?So i could bring some seance into you guys

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 01, 2009, 01:54:54 PM

@all

There is this circuit that @gadgetmall did on february I think. That it is supposedly simpler than the one from @thedaftman which link was posted on the same thread.

This is the link for @gadgetmall's circuit.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6362.msg159397#msg159397

This is the link for @thedaftman's circuit.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6362.msg159185#msg159185
For me has been too complicated and the parts difficult to get.

@gadgetmall
I dont understand the circuit. even though it is a 555 ic. I think that the 555 uses too much voltage to work and can deplete the battery faster than it is charged.
Maybe you know some other simpler way on the line of the @kubikop idea of just switching the two battery positives with a switch.

Thank you in advance.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 01, 2009, 02:56:10 PM

Quote from: xee2 on April 01, 2009, 03:05:35 AM

I clipped a 24 inch alligator clip to the other side of the wire while the scope was reading it, and let the clip rest on the floor, and the volts shot up to 237v.

@ jeanna

Where are your scope probes attached? Try taking the 24" lead and touch it to various parts of the circuit. It would seem that you have a higher voltage somewhere that is coupling to the lead.

There is only one probe. It is attached to one side of the secondary wire.

I attached the alligator clip to the other end of the same secondary wire and let it touch the floor.

There is no other part of the circuit other than the basic jt. and for this while there are no caps, so no accumulation there.

It is almost as though the floor or ground were a load. Or, and I do not understand the reason for the ground in house currents. It is said that it is there to return to the source or meter . or something.

In the bjt, the battery neg is the ground because it is a closed loop. There is no closed loop with the secondary wire / wires wound on the toroid, however.

I didn't check amps draw at the same time because I didn't want the other battery from the dmm to be involved in any way. So, I do not know if it draws more. I can check. (I will check other parts of the circuit as you suggest.)

The bjt battery was at 1.35v

This toroid is wrapped 7T,7T, and 116T secondary

@All those people working on this MK1 secondary multiplication subject,

If I figure the above circuit has 14T primary running 1.35v where the secondary is 116 turns that is a ratio of 1:10.7.
[If I remember how to work ratios, this is figured by adding 14 plus 116 to a total of 130. now, 14:130 is 1:10.7 ]

My calculator insists that 1.35 x 10.7 =14.45 [1.35 :14.45 = 1 : 10.7]
This means to me that this transformer should be getting me 14.46 volts output.

Since it shows 115v, I am seeing a ratio of 1.35 :115 or 1 : 85 . unless the 237v is valid then I am seeing 1.35 : 237 or 1 : 175.5 . - pretty sweet.

thank you all,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 01, 2009, 05:12:26 PM

@ jeanna

First check the max inputs allowed for your scope. If you are using a /10 probe then you can only go up to 10 times the max input.

The scope needs to measure the voltage between two points, just like a DMM. The tip of the probe is one point and the clip on the lead attached to the probe is the other.

To measure the voltage in your pickup coil, connect the tip of the probe to one end of coil and the clip on the probe to the other end of pickup coil.

If you are measuring over 100 volts with only one lead of scope connected to coil, then I assume the coil probably has over 100 volts between coil ends.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 01, 2009, 05:30:39 PM

Thank you xee

Now, why couldn't they have told me that in the manual? I thought that little thing that looks like a clip was for resetting to factory defaults, which was something the manual mentioned.

The manual never mentioned the clip.

thank you so much.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 01, 2009, 06:24:35 PM

@nievesoliveras,

I think we're thinking along the same lines - but I don't know why we should need a motor / generator... The idea is to have a switching mechanism which somehow stores and dumps current from one side of the circuit to another, yet does so while simultaneously creating more ...or, should I say, a higher energy to dump into the charge battery.

This could be done with a collapsing magnetic field, the collapse of the flux could generate a more powerful volt/amp pulse than source. Proving this and building around it is the problem.

@jeanna,

I look forward to seeing your waveforms, :P

There are two ground in a standard wall outlet, one is an upper plug, and the other is the round plug, the other upper plug is an actual current carry phase. On the 250v supply, there are three phases available, sometimes the unit has to be grounded separate the large supply line. One phase for each plug. Other than this, I'm not sure how the energy could be measured unless it was grounded ...the meter spins when there's energy being wasted or used - it's because the energy is flowing from the station to ground and the meter is sitting in the circuit. The power station essentially create a difference between ground at the station and ground at your house, and you benefit from it.

( Someone please correct me if I'm wrong )

@All,

What's everyone having better luck with, High permeability or Low permeability?

RE: Transformer Ratio, The fact that the ratio is different and yet the voltages are higer is indicative of core material saturation effecting flyback power output. I think that the increase is due to the actual magnetic field collapsing and not some magic, or what have you..

Has anyone calculated the watt output of a collapse versus the watt input? (This may have to be done by an electrical engineer)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 01, 2009, 08:04:57 PM

@xee,
I am very grateful for your help. I just whipped through all the charcoal coils and the MK2 with no stress. Everything made sense and stayed consistent. thank you. I am smiling :) :)

@Jadaro, OK bud,

Quote@jeanna,

I look forward to seeing your waveforms, Tongue

Here are 2 pics

The teeny little charcoal toroid, cat #Tor23 from allelectronics 10 / $1
6T,6T,74T2^o
I recorded 68.7v in one direction and
64.2v in the other on the secondary of this.
The secondary is made of 30 gauge Kynar??? (I got it from RS when they were out of the tri-pack last year. It is called Kynar wrapping wire.)

The scopeshot pic has a lot of glare - sorry
I froze the screen at 2.66k Hz because of this interesting waveform. All the rest of the speeds showed variations of a somewhat normal looking wave. This appears to the human eye to have a shadow wave within the actual linear arrangement, I couldn't resist. Too bad for the glare.

2N3904
140 ohm base resistor (still there from yesterday)
1.35v battery

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on April 01, 2009, 08:43:01 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 01, 2009, 06:24:35 PM
@nievesoliveras,

I think we're thinking along the same lines - but I don't know why we should need a motor / generator... The idea is to have a switching mechanism which somehow stores and dumps current from one side of the circuit to another, yet does so while simultaneously creating more ...or, should I say, a higher energy to dump into the charge battery.

jadaro

I have been working on something that may be able to switch current between 2 circuits
The specific application I am workiing on is something to protect my the base of my transistor from high voltage .......I am working on a JT style driver to work with an 18 V battery

I don't want to try to explain what I am trying to do .......I WILL explain it once it is working .
To try to explain it before I have a working model is like inviting all the skeptics to fill this thread with garbage .
I would much rather work on my design than argue theory .

I sure wish I had a scope :)

So far things look promising

:)

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 01, 2009, 09:18:34 PM

@jeanna,

Interesting waveform indeed, ..it's a bit puzzling though, with these devices, like calculators, the waveform they can display is only so descriptive of what is actually taking place. In your second image, you have a waveform which looks very similar to the waveform which is generated of a graph of the TCP/IP traffic when downloading streaming video. It is consistent, but because the sampling rate is out of phase with the oscillations, there is a secondary waveform on the display. The data on the readouts is more valuable than the actual picture..

I'm beginning to wonder if I need an oscilloscope at all. The frequency and other things I can measure on the DMM may be more valuable / cost effective than buying an oscilloscope.

..If I find any graphing software worthy of mention, then I'll post a link to it, ..the only thing the dmm can't do is capture the full resolution of the waveform. Come to think of it.. it would have to be capturing waveform data in the GHz range in order to be useful for looking at a magnetic field collapsing - at least from a precision point of view.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on April 01, 2009, 09:49:06 PM

Jadaro2600

You need to remember that a DMM will show you the RMS voltage and not the true voltage. RMS (root mean square) is .707 of the actual. I am not exactly sure how it would handle the spikes if it does at all. Most if not all DMM's are calibrated to work at 50/60 hz. range and not the frequencies we are working with on the jt. I would highly recommend something that will show you the actual waveform be it software or hardware.

Tim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 01, 2009, 10:06:46 PM

Quote from: MrMag on April 01, 2009, 09:49:06 PM
Jadaro2600

You need to remember that a DMM will show you the RMS voltage and not the true voltage. RMS (root mean square) is .707 of the actual. I am not exactly sure how it would handle the spikes if it does at all. Most if not all DMM's are calibrated to work at 50/60 hz. range and not the frequencies we are working with on the jt. I would highly recommend something that will show you the actual waveform be it software or hardware.

Tim

Well, for developement purposes, knowing what's going on in each component is the idea. RMS voltage, I've never counted on the RMS voltage, it's never read correctly in the frequency settings ..I have three different multimeters. There's a duty cycle a frequency setting, and the AC voltage - which I don't use, I just rectify the current with a diode..or two, this obvoisly takes away from the peaks, but so does loading the device.

Yes, though, an oscilloscope is needed, but ..the ones that cost as much as a new car.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on April 01, 2009, 10:21:33 PM

Not sure if it matters to anyone, but I was in Walmart today and I saw these new solar LED units that use a single 3.2 volt rechargeable lipo AA instead of the normal 1.2 volt AA cells for greater brightness. The batteries are the same AA size cells, but almost triple the voltage. They are selling spare 3.2v lipo batteries in 4 packs for about $10. Might be worthwhile for anyone needing a higher cell voltage in a smaller package. These cells put out the same voltage as 2 alkaline AA's when fully charged.

A few days back someone said Walmart and a few other retailers were starting to sell LED string lights similair to the Christmas tree LED strings. I could not find them at my Walmart. If anyone has gotten these at a Walmart, what department were they in and how much were they?

I also found an article about a new chip size solar cell for micro electronics that can produce 4 volts at 50 and 100 micro amps and 8 volts at 25 and 50 micro amps.
PopSci article: http://www.popsci.com/diy/article/2009-03/penny-wise-solar-power (http://www.popsci.com/diy/article/2009-03/penny-wise-solar-power)
Unit Descriptions: http://www.clare.com/Products/SolarCell.htm (http://www.clare.com/Products/SolarCell.htm)
Digikey sells them here: http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Cat=1966326&FV=fffc00d4 (http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Cat=1966326&FV=fffc00d4)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 02, 2009, 12:56:29 AM

@all
I had a virus attack, theis 1st April thing, so until I get this sorted out, I will be off air awhile.

Im on someone elses PC in another town, so I carnt read posts.

Got to download AV tools and copy to my PC.

What happened, PC got slower and slower, rebooted a few times, eventially lost email as well.
2 little screens on my tool bar wink, but as soon as I get to any web sites, I get a DOS attack.

I screened for this 1 April, but it didnt show up, hmmm we will see.

@Groundloop
Got your PM, thanks, I will be in touch ASAP with you.

jim

BTW mice = 32

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on April 02, 2009, 02:54:40 AM

grizzly snuff is giving away little led flashlights with a can of chew. these flashlights have a little canister in them the size of an AA battery that holds 3 little button cells instead. these little canisters work excellent to add a joule thief to, and a great way to 'plug n play' a jt circuit into about anything that can take a AA battery. i can take some pictures if anyone wants.

-edit: this is NOT an advertisement for grizzly chew. i don't work for them, and i don't care what you put in your own body. i just wanted to let people know about them.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 02, 2009, 03:11:05 AM

Wilby:

Good to see your post. Yes, please post pics of this conversion as I am in the process of converting a few of my led 3 AAA lights to a JT and a single AA like Ist and Gadgetmall did. It would be worth buying the chew to get that light. I am also trying to quit smoking and used to chew so maybe this is the time. Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on April 02, 2009, 07:37:31 AM

Quote from: hazens1 on April 01, 2009, 10:21:33 PM
Not sure if it matters to anyone, but I was in Walmart today and I saw these new solar LED units that use a single 3.2 volt rechargeable lipo AA instead of the normal 1.2 volt AA cells for greater brightness. The batteries are the same AA size cells, but almost triple the voltage. They are selling spare 3.2v lipo batteries in 4 packs for about $10. Might be worthwhile for anyone needing a higher cell voltage in a smaller package. These cells put out the same voltage as 2 alkaline AA's when fully charged.

Yeah, I also noticed there seem to be a few non-standard batteries on the marker nowadays... I haven't seen thses AA-sized 3.2V ones yet,
but I have seen 3.5V ones of a diameter somewhat larger than normal AAs and a length slightly smaller, their size is almost the same as
those Lithium batteries they have been selling for use in camera's for several years... But they are less expensive and have a lower voltage...
Still, interesting to see other types of battery being sold. :)

As for LEDs, I read an interesting article in the newspaper today.
The Dutch office of Measurements (loose translation of the name) has recently tested 5 different LED lamps for 2 claims;
LED lamps are claimed to be even more economic than energy-saver lamps by 25%, and are claimed to produce an equal
amount of light, if not more.
None of the 5 major brands of LED lamps passed the tests. None of them were, in the end, actually 25% more economic
than energy-saver lamps while at the same time produceing equal or greater amounts of light. Some did produce comparable
levels of lighting, but were not more energy efficient than energy-saving CFLs, some were more energy efficient but
clearly did not produce equivalent levels of lighting.
Another test involved actual user experiences with LED street lighting, where they had replaced all lamps in lamp posts
with LED lamps in a (couple of) city block(s). After a certain period, the residents were asked for their opinions on the
new LED steet lighting, and they said that the LED street lights spread much less light over the direct surroundings of
the lamp posts, causing a fairly well illuminated area in the direct vacinity of the lamp post, but the area a little further
away from the lamp posts was a lot darker than used to be the case with the old lighting, and this caused a great
contrast between light and dark zones located close to and further away from the lamp posts, respectively.
This, the residents indicated, did not increase their feeling of security nor did it make things very easy to see:
where before you could easily see a car or bike approach over a fully illuminated road, now you would see a car
or bike approach through a series of light spots and darker areas. Of course the cars etc still have their headlights,
but that's not the point.
Anyway, some further tests are planned, but if these confirm the complaints from residents, it will probably be
advised not to implement LEDs as street lighting just yet.
Thoughts on this, anyone? :)

QuoteI also found an article about a new chip size solar cell for micro electronics that can produce 4 volts at 50 and 100 micro amps and 8 volts at 25 and 50 micro amps.

Interesting article.
I found such chips for sale at www.budgetronics.com quite a while ago. They sell em for 1.95 Euros each, max output 4V 50uA.
Although perhaps their 5.95 Euro 4.5V 50mA cells are more interesting? They're quite small too, 6cmx6cmx3mm... Ok, not nearly as tinyas those chips,
but then again their amperage is a lot higher... ;)

kind regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 02, 2009, 10:32:57 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 01, 2009, 06:24:35 PM
@nievesoliveras,

I think we're thinking along the same lines - but I don't know why we should need a motor / generator... The idea is to have a switching mechanism which somehow stores and dumps current from one side of the circuit to another, yet does so while simultaneously creating more ...or, should I say, a higher energy to dump into the charge battery.

This could be done with a collapsing magnetic field, the collapse of the flux could generate a more powerful volt/amp pulse than source. Proving this and building around it is the problem.

The point is that if we could get the Jule thief circuit to self run with the automatic switching of two batteries, then we have the 1.5v power supply problem solved.
This circuit is used as a power source for any project, in my case is a pulse motor.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 02, 2009, 02:22:07 PM

@all

no matter how many coils and turn ratio you put on your transformer, the current passing through them will be the same in all coils.

it does not mean you will have, more on the pickup coils, then what the primary have passing through it, Lenz's law will always apply.

there are reasons to use multiple pickup coils.
getting less lost of what the primary is providing is one.
but getting more then what the primary(ies) is/are feeding is not one of them.

@MrMag
you are right, there is no ou involved.
but you have to agree that there is something realy interesting about the kicks...

@Pardon
flyback does not mean polarities are reversed.
there are a few posted jt's scope pictures that will prove this to you.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 02, 2009, 02:35:12 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 01, 2009, 06:24:35 PM
This could be done with a collapsing magnetic field, the collapse of the flux could generate a more powerful volt/amp pulse than source.

do you have proofs of this ?

my current understanding of this magnetic field collapse is: it is equal to the emf that have induced it.
only the time frame change, not the energy.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 02, 2009, 04:29:56 PM

@jeanna

Nice scope shot , is that from the mk style cross wind pickup coil ?

@the nop and all

Thank! That being said there is not more energy out then in but the fact is that energy can be used for many different things
at a same time , it just a mater of having the coils for it.

Ok so its not more but the same energy on many output , we are used to linear pattern but this is not, we usually use the power we got to do one thing at a time , this is better , its not more energy but better usage of the energy.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 02, 2009, 04:30:42 PM

Does anyone here know what the leads on these components are made of? Tin perhaps? the transistor, the LED or the diodes?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on April 02, 2009, 04:57:18 PM

@gyulasun

Thank you!

@Mk1

Thank you!

@ALL

I just got a new toroid from an old power supply and plan on getting a new fluke scope and a Hall probe. I think there is something very intresting about this whole JT concept and have been working 15 hour shifts to fund some advanced research! If anyone can make any recommendations on Magnetic field probes I would love some link's. I plan to map the Toroid out in FEMM and have full scope readings and V/A on each pickup coil.

Take care!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on April 02, 2009, 06:43:42 PM

OK GUYS IM BACK!!!!!!!!!!

lol ;) ;) ;D

lookie

mr maggs we gonna have a CHAT SIR!! lol ;)

but perhaps i will just do it public insted..... lol

so a scope a big ring !st mk2 60 AND A AA BATTERY ..... WHAT CAN I DO WITH THIS ......

SHALL I BLOW YOUR MIND NOW OR MAKE YOU WATE ......... ;)

IST

i dont like to see people getting picked upon!!!

so ...... ;D

stop argueing it and go with it

the LIGHT SIDE THE RIGHT SIDE ;) LOL

WHERE ARE YOU !?!?!?!?!
STUCK IN THE MIDDLE !?!?!?!
HUMMMMMMMMM

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on April 02, 2009, 07:16:23 PM

here is picture (bad quality, cellphone camera) of the grizzly flashlight and the battery canister (disassembled). sorry for the delay on getting the pics up bill. i was on dike patrol, we got a river here in fargo giving us a bit of a problem. things are better now but still gotta keep an eye on them.

edit: this is the first flashlight i have ever owned with a warning on it that "this product may cause gum disease and tooth loss" ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 02, 2009, 07:17:55 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on April 02, 2009, 04:29:56 PM
@jeanna

Nice scope shot , is that from the mk style cross wind pickup coil ?

@MK1,
Thanks,

That is a half wound but wound with the wire adjacent to each other (bifilar). I found it very difficult to make only a few turns on opposite sides and keep them tight when I connect them across the center. I made 2 with the same core and same number of primary winds but with the 2 different configurations (this and the cross wind set up).

Over the next few days, I will be sorting out the number of primary turns and how they are wound to see what effect these 2 elements have on the results with the secondary. There is good reason to think the MK cross wind is much better even when not as tight.

Continuing to describe this one, I respected what you discovered about the dead spot, and I wound the 2 wires next to each other to the half way place (right to the dead spot) and went no farther. This means that most of the secondary (60 turns) is on the opposite side (14 turns are in between the primary wires). All that white pick up wire is many layers thick. In the end I was threading it through and pulling tight to get just one more through the center.

It gives average 66volts which is pretty remarkable for such a little thing.

However the one with the cross wind MK style, gives 20volts off a 6 Turn 2^o. If you multiply that 6 by 12 to get close to the same number of 2^oturns, and multiply the 20v by the same factor of 12 you should get 240volts. I will see if it works out that way. But I will wind it and see. I will not just extrapolate it.

It is just the kind of thing I am doing these next few days, so I am glad you asked this just at this time.

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on April 02, 2009, 07:23:09 PM

MADE A NEW VIDEO JUST NOW

CALLED IT WAKE UP CALL!! ;)

MY SCOPE IS ON THE 10X SETTING AND 2V/DIV

LOL

I SCOPED ONLY 1 WIRE... HOWEVER ALL ARE THE SAME ..... ;) BTW 0 DIODES ... AND NO RESISTER LOL ;) 2222A IT GETS HOTT....

;D

IST!

THE BEST THINGS GO UNSAID :) MORE A FEELING THING ........ :o ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1f9p08HRHg

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 02, 2009, 07:42:14 PM

Hi Ist,

That is another good video. I have some questions for you. (or anybody)

The frequency meter changed many times showing different numbers.

What does this mean?

What frequency is it telling about?

I am not sure how to ask my question, but that is my best shot at it for now.

A separate question comes up.
I am finding that when I play music and use the scope there is a bit of rhythm that seems to be picked up by the scope.

Is it not better to play the music and the scope separately?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on April 02, 2009, 07:45:05 PM

LOL

the music makes no diff for me

the freq is 1.4 khz

when i intrupt it

lol

what do u see ;)

this is 2 freq mixing A BEAT FREQ IF YOU LIKE........ LOL :)

welcome aboard lol ;)

ist!

NOW MATCH IT CORRECTLY AND LOOK OUT!!!!! ;)

I MADE A REAL SHORT VIDEO ... FOR EVERYONE NO MUSIC ... JUST THE SCOPE ;)

ENJOY ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtGSk33ssAY

AND I NOW ADD THIS TO THE VID ABOVE ... LOL WHAT IF.................... ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYeoj2rO720&feature=channel_page

HUMMMMM

I THINK YOU WANT MECHANICLA SWITCHING THO ;)

MAYBE 5VDC RELAYS OFF THE FLASHER ......

:)

just 1 song .... cuz i love music ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jigwFk44C0A

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 02, 2009, 08:24:26 PM

Thanks IST,

What is so helpful for me is that it is just the same picture of a waveform that I get over and over. Sometimes close together sometimes tall or short and tall, but the pulse almost always looks like that.

I mean, now I know the scale. It is the pulse that looks like that. It is not just a part of a pulse, but the pulse itself.

I am still trying to figure out what I am seeing because I am so new to the scope.

thanks a lot,

jeanna

EDIT add

Quotethe freq is 1.4 khz

when i intrupt it

In other words when you pulse the pulse?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on April 02, 2009, 08:33:54 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 02, 2009, 08:24:26 PM
Thanks IST,

What is so helpful for me is that it is just the same picture of a waveform that I get over and over. Sometimes close together sometimes tall or short and tall, but the pulse almost always looks like that.

I mean, now I know the scale. It is the pulse that looks like that. It is not just a part of a pulse, but the pulse itself.

I am still trying to figure out what I am seeing because I am so new to the scope.

thanks a lot,

jeanna

EDIT add

In other words when you pulse the pulse?

jeanna

;D ;D ;)

1.4khz constant jt style .... nuts when you do as you said :)

ist!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on April 02, 2009, 08:34:54 PM

Nice videos IST :)

Can you just explain a little bit more what we're supposed to see?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on April 02, 2009, 08:38:37 PM

@ pirate
i wonder if one of those little supercaps would fit in these canisters. that would be neat.
here is a pic of a jt flashlight conversion i did a year or so ago. i took apart the incandescent bulb and used its base to make a new led bulb with an incandescent screw in socket. i wasn't paying attention and soldered the bulb to the base with the polarities reversed so i need that silly little redwire that goes from the jt to the battery. i used a piece from the tip of a multimeter probe for the black spacer to make it the length of a battery and cut a section of drinking straw to make a cover for the circuit and filled the voids in it with epoxy. i can try and take a close up of it if you want. long story short, been looking for a nice sized thing to do this with and this battery case in the grizzly led light is perfect.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on April 02, 2009, 08:45:40 PM

Quote from: Koen1 on April 02, 2009, 08:34:54 PM
Nice videos IST :)

Can you just explain a little bit more what we're supposed to see?

i see the wave form from the jt curcuit .... right .... lol then i take the power away ...

what do u see for an instance!?!?!?!?!

i see ringing.... what what what waht!?!?!?! an echo hummmm lol

that is what i see ;)

ist!

ok really 1 more tip ..

just to not confuse ... anyone

now watch this video after you achive the ringing colapse as i have showen with 2 freqs on my SCOPE ..... do this with it ;) ;D ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jiodkjo9hpk&feature=channel_page

lol ;D

and just cuz i am truly sooooo nice and care for everyone ... i add this vid next

lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dpXXvgYrYU&feature=channel

now cap it!! lol but isolate it first from the input!! ;)

there ya go

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on April 02, 2009, 09:03:34 PM

IST,

There may be some ringing from the power being removed but I don't think you are seeing an echo.
What it looks like to me is that the scope is trying to find the trigger point in the pulse.
Sorry, I don't think it's anything else than the scope trying to lock into the pulse.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on April 02, 2009, 09:04:19 PM

Ah, echo? :)

and that echo, is that like a bunch of pulses that you can each
collect using, idunno, a pickup coil... or is it only a sort of
"shallow reflection" that disappears when you try to collect it?
In other words, is each pulse on the scope shot of that "echo"
a real pulse and can all those pulses be picked up,
or is what looks like a pulse train on the scope in actuality
a resonance that is destroyed as soon as an attempt is made
to collect it, resulting in the collection of the single pulse energy only?

btw, how many turns does the JT base for that have again, and
how many the pickup?

regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on April 02, 2009, 09:10:42 PM

YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

LOL

I HAVE 60 OUT PUTS OF THE SAME ..... LOL WITH 1 FREQ ... MY OUT IS 1.4KHZ... 4.5VAC 25MA X60 :o :o :o 8)

ADD THE SECOND FREQ WHAT WILL BE ...

ISOLATED OR NOT

LOL

IST!

OH YA RIGHT NO DIODES :P :P :P

HONESTLY YOU MUST THINK IM STUPID DUH!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL I AINT!!! ;) ;) ;) HAHAHAHA!!

THIS AINT NEW

I RELEASED THIS LONG AGO............ WAKEUP !!!

IST HEMF TRANNY ......

BUILD IT ANY WAY YOU WANT THE ANSWER HOW ANY WHY REMAIN THE SAME .... ;D

THATS OK YOU CAN THANK ME AND ALL OTHERS THAT DID THERE PART IN 5 YEARS WHEN YOU FINALLY CATCH ON SHEESH LOL :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on April 02, 2009, 09:28:53 PM

IST,

It is going to be hard to put a second freq on the unit. The toroid itself is pulsing at 1.4K now, I would think you would be better off trying to increase the frequency to 3K or higher. This would give more pulses with a higher amplitude hence, more voltage and possibly more current.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on April 02, 2009, 09:30:39 PM

NOW YOU REALLY WANT AN ADVANCE MENT ???

LOL

POWER 2 WIRES OF THE PICKUPS DUH!!!!

LOL

WITH THE FREE OUT PUT!!!

WARNING DONT GET ME STARTED I WILL CONFUSE THE SHIT OUT OF YOU IN A FEW POSTS !!!! ;)

LOL

IST!

now really im done with teaching ... public

im selling private lessons 1 on 1

i will fully teach ... i got to eat like the rest of you

pm if intrested

william

im gone enjoy

and NEVER GIVE UP

:)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on April 02, 2009, 09:36:51 PM

LMAO. IST you almost do that with every one of your posts now. :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 02, 2009, 09:39:09 PM

@ Wilby:

Thanks for posting that. Yes, if you get a chance, a close up would be helpful I think. As far as the supercaps I have, yes any of them would fit neatly into a flashlight situation since we are removing most of the batteries. You have the small one, (first one I played with on the earth battery topic) that is about the size of a hearing aid battery, 5.5 volt, .47 F, and the others are about the size of a cigarette butt. (2.3 v, 10F) By now, I guess I should be able to figure out the wiring or rewiring of a flashlight meant for 3 AAAs and use the JT and 1 AA. I just need to sit down and do it. One of my problems is I want to replace the 5mm leds with 10mm superbrights and the reflector will have to be modified for this, or, I may have to make a custom reflector. (Not easy to do here)

Koen1 mentioned the use of led street lights and the comparison to "regular" bulbs and I do not doubt the outcome. My thoughts are, the main thing I have seen in most led flashlights, or lights for that matter, is a total disregard to designing the reflector around the led's light emitting characteristics. A regular Edison based bulb puts out light differently than the led and until some bright young engineers make reflectors that capitalize on this instead of what is now being done, Koen is correct about the leds as they stand today. I have always said on here, these are the lights of tomorrow and I still believe this but, it is going to take some rethinking about the way light is delivered.

In my little office I can have 4 ultrabright leds running on my breadboard from a JT circuit and a couple of supercaps and it light it up enough so I can type. All I did was use a few mirrors at certain angles and the light is just fine. they light for hours and hours from a single AA as you all know.

Thanks for the photo and if you can do a close up of your mod, or a simple diagram, I would appreciate it as I know others will as well. Thanks.

@ All:

I am still working on the diagrams topic but, i want to call your attention to a post made by Spark's that I think we need to revisit. If you go to that topic and look it is one of the last posts I put up. He speaks about high voltage and amps, and lack of amps, and how, if we get the volts up high enough and dump into a cap, the amps will be there as well. I know I missed it the first time around and it is very good reading. I don't normally copy posts for that topic but in this case, I made an exception.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 02, 2009, 09:39:51 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 02, 2009, 04:30:42 PM
Does anyone here know what the leads on these components are made of? Tin perhaps? the transistor, the LED or the diodes?

have you try a magnet on them. ;)
probably tin or zinc plated.

@WilbyInebriated
i would rush to change my wep keys if i were you...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on April 02, 2009, 09:49:28 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on April 02, 2009, 09:39:51 PM
@WilbyInebriated
i would rush to change my wep keys if i were you...

they are not my wep keys ;) i just like to be informed about what's going on in my little neck of the woods ;)
encryption, making or breaking, is a hobby of mine.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 02, 2009, 09:50:56 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on April 02, 2009, 09:39:09 PM
@ All:

I am still working on the diagrams topic but, i want to call your attention to a post made by Spark's that I think we need to revisit. If you go to that topic and look it is one of the last posts I put up. He speaks about high voltage and amps, and lack of amps, and how, if we get the volts up high enough and dump into a cap, the amps will be there as well. I know I missed it the first time around and it is very good reading. I don't normally copy posts for that topic but in this case, I made an exception.

i have sayed the same thing a while back, remember the time frame posts.
and if you look at IST signature, you get it in each one of the posts he make...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 02, 2009, 09:56:45 PM

NOP:

I don't doubt that. Just remember, I am only up to page 220 on my other topic, it is very slow going because I have to convert every posted photo (for some unknown reason) and then upload it. So, if you said it prior to page 220 then I am sorry I missed it. If you said it after page 220, then I am sorry I didn't see it when you posted it. I was just trying to give a shot in the arm to some of the folks that may be thinking volts are nothing. I already know you and IST don't think that way, as well as many others on here. I hope you understand. Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 02, 2009, 10:01:40 PM

Quote from: Koen1 on April 02, 2009, 09:04:19 PM
Ah, echo? :)

and that echo, is that like a bunch of pulses
...

btw, how many turns does the JT base for that have again, and
how many the pickup?

regards,
Koen

@Koen,

I am not going to try to answer that, myself.

I do want to say again that this is a cathode ray version of the digital therefore squared off picture I am getting from almost all of my new scope shots.

Last night, for instance, I saw six in a bunch. the tops followed a sine wave shape, then they stopped for a while and there was nothing. Then they repeated.

Most of mine are so complex I cannot identify the beginning of a repeat. But the basic shape and the repeating of the basic shape into a pattern is what I am seeing. Each coil , of course, has its own fingerprint, so to speak.

The example I just gave was for the coil I described to MK1 earlier today. It has only 6 winds and the primary is split. This split is the same type of primary that IST uses in the one he
shared today. This shape only shows up when I set the scope to a certain frequency too. - It is there, but hard to recognize.

Echo?
I think no one really can say for sure what they are. Maybe the word kick is a better word than echo? I dunno.

My efforts will be to even these forms out over the total wave. I think it is probably not good for anything to have such raw spikes going through it. (Maybe that is just the human talking but they hurt.)

I do have one that appears to be almost perfectly even. I am looking for what makes this even-ness happen.

Oh so many experiments to do....

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 02, 2009, 10:03:18 PM

@Pirate88179
i understand. :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on April 02, 2009, 10:12:32 PM

just cuz i can be an ass sometimes lol

just 4 u MR MAGS

yea it is the scope trying to find its self lol lol lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=068l0trm6TI

LOL

:)

IST!

hers a pic of youtube on pause..... ;)

@ mr mags ... i dont care if you invented the scope .... lol ..... per haps your 30 years of training hinders you ..... ;D

want more pics .... lol

come on why dont you BUILD IT MR MAGGS ;D ;D ;D

LOL

so just HOW MANY VOLTS ARE THOSE SPIKES..... LOL LOL

ALL IS DONE ON THE 10X PROBE ... :P VOLTS PER IN MY LAST PIC ARE .1V/DIV

LOL

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on April 02, 2009, 10:18:13 PM

IST,

Your not seeing anything special there. I have been using a scope for over 30 years, so I guess you need a little more than 3 years to realize this.

Tim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 02, 2009, 10:22:36 PM

I think the orange street lights are as efficient as an equivalent brightness LED...Led's don't buzz, either. But some toroids do.

Heh, If I were designing them, they would operate off distal fields, they wouldn't even get hooked into the line, just have to be next to it, but I think that would be costly in terms of metal.

..I think the leads, are zinc plated iron / steel.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on April 02, 2009, 10:24:04 PM

Sorry, let me explain a little better.
A scope uses a CRT with a focused beam that is always on.
When you apply an input to the scope the circuits controlling the beam start to send signals.
It is an analog scope so the voltage applied and transferred to the beam winds up to the inputted pulse.
It is not a true indication of what is being inputted until the signal is fully converted in the circuitry.
Of course this windup period is very short but if the trace is set to a high time base, you will see exactly what you have shown.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on April 02, 2009, 10:31:56 PM

Have not had much time for expirementing lately, but I did take my 7-7-70-70 coil and try running it with 2 AAs instead of 1 for a total input of 2.5 volts and 115ma unloaded draw. The 2 Pickup coils rectified and serialized produced 500 volts with 500 ohm at the base of the TIP31 tranny. That's a 200:1 voltage ratio.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on April 02, 2009, 10:47:48 PM

a pic i circled the diffrent things YOU SEE IN IT....

the 2 vert boxes are the 1.4khz pulse .... the oval is a combining wave .... a result of the 2 no? and the big square the spikes.... ;)

if im wrong please do explain ....

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 02, 2009, 10:51:01 PM

Quote from: hazens1 on April 02, 2009, 10:31:56 PM
... That's a 200:1 voltage ratio.

Interesting Hazens,

Most of mine seem to be about 100 times more than expected. Did you see what the factor was with just one 2^o coil? If it is also around 100 , that would at least reflect some of my findings.

And maybe I can see a pattern?

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on April 02, 2009, 10:58:24 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on April 02, 2009, 10:47:48 PM
a pic i circled the diffrent things YOU SEE IN IT....

the 2 vert boxes are the 1.4khz pulse .... the oval is a combining wave .... a result of the 2 no? and the big square the spikes.... ;)

if im wrong please do explain ....

ist!

The two vertical boxes, I agree.
The big square, probably just noise. I honestly don't think it's anything special.
The oval wave. I think you got me there. Could just be some residual wave from removing power or it could actually be something else. Not exactly sure on that one but is there enough of it there as far as voltage is concerned. Don't even have the foggiest idea how you would be able to capture the little bugger to use it for something??
Any ideas?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on April 02, 2009, 11:05:48 PM

mr maggs ...

perhaps i shall drive my ass there and teach you in person lol ;D

sure we can use every part of this ;D

lol

i honestly think the oval is a result dirrectly from mixing 2 freqs now we add a neo to amp it ;)

and you got my ist cap charger ..... ;D

come on guys ....

its not hard it was hard as hell to figure this out backward .... lol ;)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on April 02, 2009, 11:06:27 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 02, 2009, 10:51:01 PM
Interesting Hazens,

Most of mine seem to be about 100 times more than expected. Did you see what the factor was with just one 2^o coil? If it is also around 100 , that would at least reflect some of my findings.

And maybe I can see a pattern?

Thank you,

jeanna

When I just had the single pickup coil 7-7-70 and was getting 250 volts from 1.3v input thats about 192:1 and the 7-7-70-70 with 1.3 in was getting 350 volts, that's 269:1. I bet if I add a 3rd pickup coil the ratio will hit over 300:1 output from input. The numbers do not add up to normal transformer theory. I would expect 13 volts from the 7-7-70 coil with a 1.3 volt input. These ratios are at least 10 times higher than I would have thought.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on April 02, 2009, 11:10:25 PM

IST,

You are more than welcome to come here with your coil. I would love to put it on my scope.
Maybe we could teach each other something.
Looking forward to your visit.

Tim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on April 02, 2009, 11:14:26 PM

Quote from: MrMag on April 02, 2009, 11:10:25 PM
IST,

You are more than welcome to come here with your coil. I would love to put it on my scope.
Maybe we could teach each other something.
Looking forward to your visit.

Tim

mr maggs i owe you a favor .... im sure you well remember ... ;D

thanks btw for the freq genny !!!!

william

i will visit you ...

YOU KNOW I DID ..... :) MR MAGS

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on April 02, 2009, 11:17:42 PM

IST,

Any time any day you pick.
No problem with the genny, I hope you put it to good use.

Tim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 02, 2009, 11:23:26 PM

@ IST and MrMags:

You too get together and I am SURE we will all learn something. That would be great.

I was shopping for scopes on e-bay but...they are a LOT of money and no telling if they are damaged, which is why they might be being sold. (I would have no idea) At least, Jeanna's is new and since it is portable I am sure it has its limitations but, it works and to me that is the main thing.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 02, 2009, 11:25:04 PM

Ok, so I have these little brain farts every once in a while..

How is it that there is a correct voltage building up between the collector and base/ground?

I see that a source amp and voltage flows trough the coil to collector, and when it's turned on, there is a magnetic flux created, but when it goes off, shouldn't the voltage have an opposite polarity than from where it's coming from?

Which coil is creating the larger flux here? ..the coil to base or the coil to collector?

I usually don't wind a secondary, to test thing, and I notice that there's always a larger collector voltage occurring, obviously, but I'm not exactly understanding where the polarity of the charge is originating from.

---

Currently, I have a small jtc setup so that there are even turns of each, and I'm getting 60 volts, and am able to light up 9 small leds with it on 55ma ..I also noticed that the more leds I attach, the less ma it consumes...this comes at a cost to led brightness though. I also took a measurement of the path heading to base, and it's only using 1ma and ..there is a 1v drop across the resistor, with source voltage of 1.32v.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on April 02, 2009, 11:30:36 PM

i think im slowly pulseing the ring close to resosonance

im only HAND PULSEING IT ....

.. LOL

rember this lil thing lol ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBjN0wO05-w

lol

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 02, 2009, 11:43:17 PM

Quote from: hazens1 on April 02, 2009, 11:06:27 PM
When I just had the single pickup coil 7-7-70 and was getting 250 volts from 1.3v input thats about 192:1 and the 7-7-70-70 with 1.3 in was getting 350 volts, that's 269:1. I bet if I add a 3rd pickup coil the ratio will hit over 300:1 output from input. The numbers do not add up to normal transformer theory. I would expect 13 volts from the 7-7-70 coil with a 1.3 volt input. These ratios are at least 10 times higher than I would have thought.

I see.

first, yes, good. You are getting even more than 10 times the expected.

Personally, I believe the usefullness of this voltage will depend on its regularity. I could be wrong

The other thing you have just reported, is that it is not purely additive.

I have seen this too.

The second pickup added much more (and still way more than the 10 times of transformer theory) but it did not double the results of just having one.

@All,
I have been leaning toward making the pick up from one wire, on mine as a result.

Also, since I am also trying to get a smoother curve or a curve of the peaks, at least, I want to keep them from 'rogue' waves. Perhaps what ist has shown us tonight is the way a rogue wave forms.

Thanks Hazens. This helps,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on April 02, 2009, 11:53:02 PM

jeanna

that seams verry intresting ....

might be i can not pretend to know ... lol

i dont know ... for sure ....

i think kinda like the dubble slit thing... waves combining
and if i hook up the relay i can sw 1v 30 amp with ease .. but you want to put it to work or it will melt the relays FAST ...

1 side was orange spark other green ... in past test ... useing relays ..

so i should be able to adjust the freq with ease ...

and TUNE THE 2 FREQS FOR SAFE WORKING RANGE ...

SPIKES MAY WELL BE HASH..... AND THE GOOD STUF IS THE RESULTING WAVE ... BY VAREING THE 2 FREQS ... IM SURE I CAN VARRY THE COMBINED WAVE

in voltage .. for sure with ease ...

but NOW THIS GOES TO MARCO RODINS MATH 3+6 YOU GET 9 ;) LOL

HOW DID I HEAR IT B4 ... 3 TIPS TO THE ICEBURG... HUMMMM...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 03, 2009, 12:01:22 AM

@Jadaro,
I may not be understanding your question. If so my apologies.

I look at the bifilar wire wound around the toroid as the source of the actual oscillations.

I - the charge and mag field etc with vectors and all the rest, goes first one way to the center tap, then returns to the beginning.

Each time it does this it reverses the whole shebang.

2-The pulses coming from the transistor base, control the saturation of the magnetic element. The pulses have other functions like using less dc from the battery because the system is off much of the time, possibly creating the rogue wave if the timing is just right, etc.

I personally don't think the CE part of the transistor is doing too much beyond its own transistor thing. Of course, I could be wrong, and if you are using the light in the bjt place, the CE has every thing to do with the light. But what is to be gained by using the jt that way? It is already established that it can let you use an otherwise dead battery far longer etc.

forgive me if I misunderstood your question.
thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 03, 2009, 01:14:22 AM

@jeanna, and others, ..

To help me better understand, is the following statement correct. If the resistance of the path from positive to base is substantially low, the the resistance between collector and emitter becomes zero. The net effect is that, when the transistor is on, the full amount of current can flow between coil to collector to ground through the transistor. Only when the resistance across base is substantially high does the the resistance between collector and emitter vary; I noticed that the resistance between C and E was around 3.5k when the resistance at B was 14.8k...etc, like a variable resistor this thing could be.

If I'm not mistaken then, there is more current flowing through the collector coil than through the base coil? Wouldn't the collector coil have more control over the magnetic flux? Doesn't this same coil have to have enough current to cause induction current to oppose that of the base current enough to shut off the transistor?

And since there is a large current flowing through the collector coil, wouldn't there be more inductive flux in any adjacent coils? ..isn't this why the pickup coil gains so much more than the input - just being generally in the flux area - As I see it, the path to base is only to cause the switching on and off via inductively being impeded by a larger magnetic flux?

This can be seen by placing the resistor up from, and resisting through both coils and equal amount, say 1k for each coil, and the circuit ceases to function because there isn't enough BMF to impede the current flowing in the other coil and thus no 'blocking-oscillator' action occurs, and there's no transformer action for the secondary coil to harness.

Quote from: jeanna on April 03, 2009, 12:01:22 AM
I personally don't think the CE part of the transistor is doing too much beyond its own transistor thing. Of course, I could be wrong, and if you are using the light in the bjt place, the CE has every thing to do with the light. But what is to be gained by using the jt that way? It is already established that it can let you use an otherwise dead battery far longer etc.

I think you fully understand the question, and thank you! :) There is almost nothing to be gained from using the CE path shorted across the terminals, but this is the way the original creator did it, apparently there is something unique about the NPN wall the makes it more favorable to flow through the short than through the CE to Ground path.

@all,
My basic question then is: is it not shorting the path when the CE path is turned off..as if to say, Is this path not available at the time? And at that same time, is that when the magnetic field is collapsing?

If so, then it is as if there is a large negative voltage pulling toward the positive pole, because the path is simply a load between the two supply terminals with ...let's say, an adjunct circuit irritating the process to such a degree as to cause the voltage between the terminals to gain enough strength for it to overcome any resistance impeding the normal function.

..this is not the case with a pickup coil, the gains realized as mentioned above are lost, only to become effected by a pickup coil. In other words, when adding a pickup coil, there are still these huge transient surges available at the collector, AS well as at any pickup.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 03, 2009, 02:35:20 AM

@MrMag
i fail to see what you meant.
what is different between inputing multiple frequencies with frequencies generators and doing it manually ?
when doing it manually, generating lots of hash, a scope is not fast enough ?

@jadaro2600
to get an answere to your question require a dual trace scope.
monitor from the negative of the battery and the base
see it relationship with the negative of the battery and collector.
i think when one is high, the other will be low and vise versa.

i am solely relying on the less resistive path the current should be taking to come to that conclusion.
since the collector path is open the battery put a high to the base that turn on the transistor.
all the current pass through the collector, and, at the very same time, almost none goes to the base witch turn off the transistor.
etc..., etc...

the base coil is there to start the oscilation.
it is probably creating other effects as well, but currently i am not sure what exactly.

i can have the exact same results, as with the basic jt, with only 1 coil and an external signal to the base of the transistor.
that mean that those spikes are clearly not coming from the base coil.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gyulasun on April 03, 2009, 06:13:04 AM

Hi All,

I think if you study this link here, many questions on the basic Joule thief circuit operation will be answered:

http://www.tpub.com/neets/book9/36e.htm

The schematic in Fig. 3-33 is a bit different from a basic Jt (there is a coupling capacitor C1 in series with L2) but I think the working principle remains the same if you connect L2 in series with R1 and omit C1. [Jadaro2600 found even R1 could be dismissed (at least once the circuit already started)].

rgds, Gyula

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on April 03, 2009, 08:09:52 AM

@IST & @MrMag:

Hey now that might just be a very good idea,
to meet up so MrMag can take a close look
at what IST has got, and maybe he can then
give a bit more clear description and explanation?

Not to be negative toward you IST, but your posts are
often quite unclear and confusing. Enthousiastic,
yes, that they are too, and you are clearly still very
actively building and experimenting, but still,
your posts are most often not clear. Or at least,
it is unclear what exactly you mean to imply with
many of your suggestive remarks, and it is hard to
distill clear information from them.
So perhaps with a little input from MrMags point
of view, that could also get some things clear.

Don't get me wrong eh IST, if you really have
an ou setup there then of course that's great!
:)

Regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on April 03, 2009, 08:55:17 AM

@pirate
i tried to take a closeup but my camera is being uncooperative, leaving me with this craptacular 2megapixel cellphone camera. i will see if i can borrow a camera and get some decent closeups. how it's done is going to change depending on the layout of the batteries, lamp and the switch for each flashlight. i am assuming you want to mod a 'maglight' type of flashlight from what you have said so far.
trick is you want the circuit in series with the battery and the led. here is one way to do it. it uses a dual jt, one npn, one pnp locked together by sharing the same core.
http://cappels.org/dproj/vboostLED/vboostLED.html
there are other ways of course, like fudging the traditional one transistor jt topology so the led is not across collector/emitter as i did in my light.

sorry again for the delay in reply, thank the flying spaghetti monster that the floodwaters are finally beginning to recede, i am sick and tired of chucking sandbags and have got some new stiffler experiments to do!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on April 03, 2009, 09:14:48 AM

@ jadaro2600,

You are correct in the operation of the jt. One of my post a couple of days or so ago explain exactly what you are saying.

The base current is low compared to the CE current. Since the coil is wound in opposite directions, when current runs through the CE junction, the magnetic field created is larger then the field created by the base current. This will stop the flow to the base re-opening the CE junction.
The LED being placed between the CE junction acts the same as an indicating fuse. As long as current flows across the CE junction, the LED will not light,(the path of least resistance) when the CE junction is off, the LED will light.

@ TheNOP

The scope is fast enough but you still need to differentiate between noise and signal.
Using multiple frequency generators would be the best way to do it. As I mentioned, you want the highest spike and frequency available. Once the highest frequency is found, a second or even a third frequency could be added as long as it was a harmonic of the main frequency and in sync with it. Then your pulses would be additive and possibly increase the overall voltage on the secondary.

Doing it manually is impossible, unless you can do it 1.4K times per second, consistently.

@ Hazens1

The reason it looks like you are getting more than a 10:1 ratio is that you are actually supplying more than 1.3 volts. It is the spikes being caused by the on/off operation of the CE junction that are causing the high voltage on the secondaries. If I have to guess with the voltages you have on the output, I would say that with the 250v secondary, you are probably getting 25v spikes from the CE junction.

@ IST,

Thinking about it a little more, I wonder if that trace you show in the oval that you drew could be caused by the current flowing to the base of the transistor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on April 03, 2009, 09:34:07 AM

i cant know for sure how this works ..

but it works...

im useing short pulses ...

of a freq close to coils resosnance ... 1.4khz makes it sing

not perfect resosnance ... i dont want it tuned to resosnance .. things BLOW UP

so diblertly tune off......

then we send a short pulse of 1.4khz so something like 1.5hz should work well

if you add a neo i would try 2.5hz ;) use a core !!!! word to the wize ..... ;)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on April 03, 2009, 10:00:17 AM

Ist,

You want to run it in resonance. You will have the lowest current drain on the battery in resonance. Believe me it will not blow up.
It will only be a problem if you use positive feedback that is causing a steady increase in the output.
That will NOT happen here.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on April 03, 2009, 12:03:10 PM

i know i can configure this a million ways ...

i know this yes mr magg i agree resonance is important!! but all depends upon its use ... ;D

i choose not to use resonance ... it is not required ....

to achive big output

plus when in resonance add a load you need a self tuneing unit.....

so it will always adjust its self

wrong way!!!!

lol

this is the pain in the ass way of doing it!!!

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 03, 2009, 12:23:10 PM

Quote from: gyulasun on April 03, 2009, 06:13:04 AM
I think if you study this link here, many questions on the basic Joule thief circuit operation will be answered:

http://www.tpub.com/neets/book9/36e.htm

thanks
this confirm what i was thinking.

it also clarify, for me, the role played by the base coil.
with the resistor, it set the frequency as well as the duty cycle.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 03, 2009, 01:03:55 PM

@gyulasun, I have one that will start without it ( the resistor ), without a switch as well, it's pictured here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg165655#msg165655 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg165655#msg165655) and here http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg166453#msg166453 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg166453#msg166453) as a recitation.

@MrMag, thankyou for that confirmation. This makes things more clear now.

REgarding the oscilloscope ghosts, this is probably an effect similar to when you remove the probes from a voltage reading. Sometimes I get a sudden increase in voltage before it drops. This sometimes happens just as I'm pulling the leads away.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 03, 2009, 05:24:42 PM

I was making some adjustments to one of my Joule Thief Circuits, and made an interesting observation... when setting the circuit up as shown in the diagram below, the result voltages are higher, not by much, but, the diode or other load can be put in place of the upper capacitor, with no connection to ground, the flyback just goes through back to the coil rather than shorting through a load to ground or 'slamming' into the transistor...

I suppose it wants to take the circular path.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gyulasun on April 03, 2009, 06:13:37 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 03, 2009, 01:03:55 PM

@gyulasun, I have one that will start without it ( the resistor ), without a switch as well, it's pictured here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg165655#msg165655 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg165655#msg165655) and here http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg166453#msg166453 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg166453#msg166453) as a recitation.

Ok, it can start even without the R1 resistor indeed, induction and / or the charge/discharge of the series capacitor with L2 insures this when the battery voltage is connected, the transistor works as a kind of Class-C amplifier / oscillator.

Earlier you asked:

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 28, 2009, 06:09:04 PM
I have a DMM, and it has a diode checking mechanism ..which, when placed across the appropriate leads on a diode, gives me a number ( usually a less than one as a decimal, such a 0.671 ). Is this number the voltage drop I can expect to see across it?

Yes it is the forward voltage drop. Many digital multimeters have a separate diode test setting either embedded in the resistance measuring range or next to it separately. In this range the DMM is designed to display the voltage drop (not the forward resistance) in Volt, so your value of 0.671 is 0.671V for that diode, measured at a low (about 1mA) forward current via the diodes to be tested. You can check the diodes between transistor electrodes (BE or CB) in this diode test setting too and in case of Germanium or Schottky diodes you can nicely see the differences in the forward voltage drops.

Re on you interesting observation you find a bit higher voltage across the upper capacitor: I think the explanation is that between those two points the baterry voltage and the flyback voltage of L1 add up in series so in theory the extra voltage is just the value of the battery voltage minus the two voltage drops of the diodes leading to the upper capacitor.

rgds, Gyula

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 03, 2009, 07:00:17 PM

Quote from: gyulasun on April 03, 2009, 06:13:37 PM

Re on you interesting observation you find a bit higher voltage across the upper capacitor: I think the explanation is that between those two points the baterry voltage and the flyback voltage of L1 add up in series so in theory the extra voltage is just the value of the battery voltage minus the two voltage drops of the diodes leading to the upper capacitor.

rgds, Gyula

This makes some sense, the reading was 105 volts on the upper and 100 volts on the right.

...there was some reverse bias, I could get the LED to light up in the opposite direction, but the polarity ... and the voltage as configured was giving my a very dimly lit LED. I attribute that effect to the action of the collapsing field in the coil-to-base.

@all,

Has anyone come up with anymore results on the voltage difference between the secondary ( pickup ) and the ground? I was reading that there were some boosted readings?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 03, 2009, 07:26:44 PM

The following refers to a standard Joule thief circuit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 03, 2009, 09:41:16 PM

Thank you xee2,

That is clear, sensible and simple.

IMO that is the best explanation of the bjt.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 04, 2009, 10:23:52 AM

@jeanna

Howdy!

When you say 07,07,70 2(degree symbol)

What do you mean with the two and the degree symbol. What does that mean?

Thank you in advance.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 04, 2009, 12:39:54 PM

@ jadaro2600

Good observation. As your experiment shows, the voltage from the collapsing magnetic field in the collector coil is actually developed across the leads of the collector coil.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 04, 2009, 01:19:54 PM

@all

http://www.rexresearch.com/mra/5568005.htm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on April 04, 2009, 01:56:55 PM

hi mk1, just wanted to make you aware that there is a MRA thread on overunity already.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6662.0

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 04, 2009, 02:55:46 PM

preemptive circuit diagram...

I tired this one already, and though it has only partial relevance with the previously mentioned magnetic amplification, it's not a great setup...

There is inductive cancellation.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 04, 2009, 03:21:50 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on April 04, 2009, 10:23:52 AM
@jeanna

Howdy!

When you say 07,07,70 2(degree symbol)

What do you mean with the two and the degree symbol. What does that mean?

Thank you in advance.

Jesus

Oh, I am sorry.

That is a shorthand for secondary. I can't remember where I learned that one, maybe math class, or maybe it is a biology symbol.

1^o= primary
2^o=secondary
|| = parallel

Thanks for asking, you were probably not the only one.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 04, 2009, 06:57:05 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 04, 2009, 03:21:50 PM
Oh, I am sorry.

That is a shorthand for secondary. I can't remember where I learned that one, maybe math class, or maybe it is a biology symbol.

1^o= primary
2^o=secondary
|| = parallel

Thanks for asking, you were probably not the only one.

jeanna

Thank you @lady jeanna !

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on April 04, 2009, 11:12:43 PM

I am looking for a source for toroids

Does anyone here have any experience with specifications for cores ?

Here is a spec sheet I found on the web

http://www.cmi-ferrite.com/Products/Materials/data/Summary%20Data%20Tables.pdf

All the Mn Zn ferrites have pretty high initial permeability
The Ni Zn ferrites have much lower initial permeability
I think that is probably important ;sense we are using very low power .

Also because of low power I think low Coercive Force would be important
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coercive_force

I am thinking that C2050 might be a good choice for normal JTs
CMD5005 might be a good choice if you are going for some grunt .

Any commments or advice ?

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 05, 2009, 12:57:13 AM

Continuing with my questions about the flux and flyback in general;

Does anyone think that, since the voltage builds across the coil when the transistor is turned off, then it couldn't be the induction in the coil to base that's cause it, and instead just the collapsing magnetic field..

I'm pretty sure that xee has pointed this out, then having said this;

1. There must also be a voltage collapse occurring in the coil to base as is occurring in the coil to collector?

2. Am I ( or am I not ) the only one that's operating the transistor in such a way as to completely turn the transistor on? ...is there anyone that's NOT using it in this way...because not using it in this way would indeed result in transistor resistance, and thus, there may be less amp drawn from the battery? ..and the result may be heat on the transistor?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 05, 2009, 02:15:50 AM

@resonanceman
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=selecting+a+transformer+core&btnG=Search&meta=
http://www.mag-inc.com/pdf/twc-s2.pdf page 5

Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 05, 2009, 12:57:13 AM
1. There must also be a voltage collapse occurring in the coil to base as is occurring in the coil to collector?

depend on what you call "voltage collapse"
whatever is happening in the base coil, it is way much less then in the collector coil.
it is a need part for the oscilation, but not what give the voltage spikes.

Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 05, 2009, 12:57:13 AM
2. Am I ( or am I not ) the only one that's operating the transistor in such a way as to completely turn the transistor on? ...is there anyone that's NOT using it in this way...because not using it in this way would indeed result in transistor resistance, and thus, there may be less amp drawn from the battery? ..and the result may be heat on the transistor?

turning the transistor on = shorting the battery poles.
the longer you short it, the faster you drain the battery.

do you have a scope ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 05, 2009, 02:49:34 AM

@ jadaro2600

The voltage is created by the collapsing magnetic field. It is a consequence of the collapse, not the cause.

Coupling between coils should be considered as a result of changing current flow, not voltage.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 05, 2009, 03:03:25 AM

Quote from: xee2 on April 05, 2009, 02:49:34 AM
@ jadaro2600

The voltage is created by the collapsing magnetic field. It is a consequence of the collapse, not the cause.

Coupling between coils should be considered as a result of changing current flow, not voltage.

Ok, now things are making more sense, thankyou. It seems then, that it's less transformer action that's being usefull and more the logical physics that's being harnessed here - So then there is less transfers of current, per se, while the transistor is off.

Quote from: TheNOP on April 05, 2009, 02:15:50 AM
depend on what you call "voltage collapse"
whatever is happening in the base coil, it is way much less then in the collector coil.
it is a need part for the oscilation, but not what give the voltage spikes.
turning the transistor on = shorting the battery poles.
the longer you short it, the faster you drain the battery.

do you have a scope ?

@TheNOP,

I'm sorry, no, things would be much clearer then, but alas I have none, and if I did, it would have to be a multichannel ib order for it to be useful.

I didn't actually mean voltage collapse, I meant field collapse, but it typed out wrong. The ides is then that magnetic field collapses, then a voltage occurs, but why is the voltage collapse occuring in such a way as to be of the same polarity as the direction of the current flowing, this doesn't make sense to me ... I thought it would be created in such a way as there would be a voltage collapse in the opposite direction.

Is there not a polarity to voltage? or is it like I had suspected, just a difference between two points?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 05, 2009, 03:50:03 AM

@ jadaro2600

Voltage is a way of measuring electrostatic force between charges. It tells how hard an electron is pushed or pulled as it is brought near a bunch of charges.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 05, 2009, 03:54:22 AM

A second thought, or third;

If we're getting these voltage spikes on recourse from the transistor being shut off, then all voltages picked up, from secondary coils, are then an effect of the current of the current being cut off as well, ...then how is it that an MK2 coil, or a 7,7, etc is getting results as it is could not be made better by ...

Winding the coil to collector be wound Bifilar with the secondary and the coil to base being wound, either under these with less winds, or over this, in some small section of the toroid...

By this I mean, wind bifilar all the way around, while using one of these for the collector and one for the pickup coil, and then adding a number of turns on a third wire for the coil to base?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on April 05, 2009, 09:45:36 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 05, 2009, 03:03:25 AM
Ok, now things are making more sense, thankyou. It seems then, that it's less transformer action that's being usefull and more the logical physics that's being harnessed here

Ehm... is transformer action not a great example of logical physics? I think I don't follow your statement...

Quote- So then there is less transfers of current, per se, while the transistor is off.

Transfer of current between what? Between source and circuit there should be zero transfer of current when
the transistor, used in this case as an auto-switch, is off. Logically, in that phase any "transfer of current"
between the primary and secondary will not be drawn from the unconnected source. But that "transfer of
current" is still induction, is it not? Be it electromagnetic (via the flux core) or direct (wire to wire)
induction, still induction... Right?
If you think I completely missed the point you were trying to make, please tell me? ;)

QuoteThe ides is then that magnetic field collapses, then a voltage occurs, but why is the voltage collapse occuring in such a way as to be of the same polarity as the direction of the current flowing, this doesn't make sense to me ... I thought it would be created in such a way as there would be a voltage collapse in the opposite direction.

And why did you think that, if I may ask? (yes sorry for the annoying question ;))

Quote
Is there not a polarity to voltage? or is it like I had suspected, just a difference between two points?

Ehm... perhaps I misunderstand your remark, but yes, there is polarity, it is positive or negative, and yes, that is just a relative difference in
potential between two points. I fail to see the problem... ?

Regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pardon on April 05, 2009, 10:39:10 AM

I just wound a new bar last night it has 21 turns wound first then 7 turns wound on top of that. all wires are wrapped close and tight and insulated between the layers. and centered on the bar. if i take the 7 turns and connect that coil to the collector and the 21 turn coil to the base i get almost all battery voltage going to the trans. plus the led is very bright. if the coils are reversed i only get half the voltage and the led is dim. i think if i used a fully charged battery it would blow the led it is that bright. it also ran all night with very little battery voltage drop. what i don't understand is that the voltage measured at the led but after the diode is a small minus voltage like -.04 volt.

i think i like bars they are so easy to wind and seem to work just as good.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on April 05, 2009, 10:58:15 AM

Quote from: Pardon on April 05, 2009, 10:39:10 AM
I just wound a new bar last night it has 21 turns wound first then 7 turns wound on top of that. all wires are wrapped close and tight and insulated between the layers. and centered on the bar. if i take the 7 turns and connect that coil to the collector and the 21 turn coil to the base i get almost all battery voltage going to the trans. plus the led is very bright. if the coils are reversed i only get half the voltage and the led is dim. i think if i used a fully charged battery it would blow the led it is that bright. it also ran all night with very little battery voltage drop. what i don't understand is that the voltage measured at the led but after the diode

Where is this diode in your circuit? Does the voltage perhaps increase if you use 4 such diodes as a rectifying bridge?

Quoteis a small minus voltage like -.04 volt.

i think i like bars they are so easy to wind and seem to work just as good.

Yeah, apparently all kinds of other coil configs work for a JT, not just the ferrite toroid core type.
I have seen simple air-core coil versions that appear to work quite well too, and of course
there's the braided/entangled iron- and copper wire type which seems to work,
and Jeanna has been using a carbon toroid recently, so yeah I suppose a bar wound
coil will also work, sort of a crossover between air core on the outside and solid core
on the inside...
The fact that air-core and even braided/entwined wire versions seem to work almost
just as well would seem to imply that direct induction either plays a role in the effects
we're seeing...
... right? (If anyone disagrees then please point out why? ;))

Kind regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 05, 2009, 11:51:09 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 05, 2009, 03:03:25 AM

without a pickup coil(s) there is almost no "transformer action".
the "transformer action" is only to oscilate the transistor.

when we interupt a current flow in a conductor the voltage will temporarely rise in the conductor.
those spike, correspond to the collapse of the mag field that was created by the current flow.
but, when current is interupted, there is no circuit path for the currents anymore, there is no currents flow, it is just rising the potential.

to understand how those voltage spikes are created, one need to add a time constant to the equations.
the voltage measurement we are taking are in reality volts/second, but it does not take a second for a mag field to collapse.

a coil is much like a capacitor in a way, it store energy in the form of a mag field and can release it faster then it take to fill it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 05, 2009, 03:15:16 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 05, 2009, 12:57:13 AM
...
2. Am I ( or am I not ) the only one that's operating the transistor in such a way as to completely turn the transistor on? ...is there anyone that's NOT using it in this way...because not using it in this way would indeed result in transistor resistance, and thus, there may be less amp drawn from the battery? ..and the result may be heat on the transistor?

Hi Jadaro,

I am using the transistor as a switch in the way of xee2's description.
I do not get overheating.

AbbaRue gave me a bit of vital info a while back (350 pages ago, maybe) He pointed out that
fewer primary turns will use more amps, and will make the transistor heat up . He also used the words stress the transistor.
More primary turns will cause heat in the primary wires themselves.
So, the 'art' is to find the medium place.

---
I was hunting down information and found a really good site. It is from New South Wales. The teacher made the site for personal reasons after watching high school teachers be told what to teach or something like that - political reasons. The High schools were being told to teach history of physics and not physics, so he put up this excellent site for high school physics remediation. ;)

Unfortunately for math deprived americans, at least, understanding AC requires comfort with calculus, because everything is moving in curves every moment. It is easiest to default to DC laws and muddle through. However, I am convinced that while we can muddle through this, it might be easier to face the dragon.

So, I read all the words and watched all the flashes, and it really is very good information.

One piece of information that is very relevant is that at high frequency, the voltage rises in respect to the current.
At first, I thought they both moved away from each other, but it seems more that the voltage rises a lot while the current stays where it is.

This is exactly what we are finding.

This explains how it is that we are not seeing plain transformer proportions. What I do like about this is that it is from nonfringe physics. I like the verification.

http://www.physclips.unsw.edu.au/jw/AC.html (http://www.physclips.unsw.edu.au/jw/AC.html)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 05, 2009, 03:50:45 PM

Quote from: Koen1 on April 05, 2009, 09:45:36 AM
Ehm... is transformer action not a great example of logical physics? I think I don't follow your statement... Transfer of current between what? Between source and circuit there should be zero transfer of current when
the transistor, used in this case as an auto-switch, is off. Logically, in that phase any "transfer of current"
between the primary and secondary will not be drawn from the unconnected source. But that "transfer of
current" is still induction, is it not? Be it electromagnetic (via the flux core) or direct (wire to wire)
induction, still induction... Right?
If you think I completely missed the point you were trying to make, please tell me? ;)

I say

Quotethere is less

, this is referring to the action of the coil to base on the coil to collector with regard to the voltage produced, ..if there is 'transformer action', induction or otherwise, when the coil to base is on and unimpeeded by the coil to collector, then there will be LESS current transfered via this mechanism to the coil to collector from the coil to base, even if the coil is off via the transistor, than there would be in the inverse situation. This does cause the oscilation action, this is simply a recitation of something that's already been stated here.

My postulate is that there is energy transfered to the coil to collector via the coil to base even though the coil to base may be turned off. We both admit that even though a coil is turned off, that energy can be transfered to it, right? ...this would be minimal, but still present.

I can't assume that one is taking pace and not the other - and I have to account for the degree to which it is taking place, because I can rectify the current off the coil to collector BOTH ways and get readings, and one way is significantly less ( yet larger still, than the source voltage ) than the other, but still measurable.

Without a secondary, there is little transfer of current, because when one is off, the other is on, the currents already in them are more powerful than anything 'to be transfered', ON top of that, the path of resistance on the coil to base is much higher than the path of resistance on the coil to collector. This means that it only takes a little bit of 'transformer action' to turn the transistor off... we both know that's really the trick here on the oscillations; unless the impedance resistance is so high that it matches or exceeds the resistance of the path from positive to the base of the transistor, then there should be some degree of oscillation in the circuit.

With a secondary, there is little current and more voltage transfered because the collapse of the magnetic field is what's causing the voltage energy in the pickup coils. Someone here stated that if you let a cap charge long enough on a secondary, then you will get current back..this is true, there is transformer action on the secondaries...but;

I say that it is less, because if we thought of magnetic field collapse causing voltage as transformer action, then we would see voltage gains in transformers even in the 1:1 ratio would we not? ..so I say that the whole effect is less transformer action and more logical physics because ...

Yesterday, I took a crap, and when the turd hit the water, some of that water splashed back up but the turd continued falling in that direction. ..this is a crude revelation of what I mean, but it's like a drop of water hitting a still body of water, the drop goes in, but water there comes back up... this is something like a magnetic field collapse, barring any potty humor, because a voltage gain can be realized without a transformer, without more then one coil, all that is needed is a single coil (inductor ) to attain a voltage spike.

We have them, generally speaking, setup in such a way as to create an inductive switch, which in some ways, obscures the beauty of the magnetic field collapse causing the voltage, ..if you venture towards the timer controlled circuit, there is no induction which triggers the oscillation, only a timer. IN a way, this is more reliable because it becomes less reliant on ambient temperature for oscillation frequency, but in as much as it is reliable, it is costly to run via current.

Obviously, with temperature, the cores would change their dynamics a bit - this is all hinging on the fact that magnetic fields begin to fail at elevated temperatures.

Quote from: Koen1 on April 05, 2009, 09:45:36 AM
And why did you think that, if I may ask? (yes sorry for the annoying question ;))
Ehm... perhaps I misunderstand your remark, but yes, there is polarity, it is positive or negative, and yes, that is just a relative difference in
potential between two points. I fail to see the problem... ?

Regards,
Koen

The reason I say that, is the magnetic field collapse causes a voltage - I've apparently been fooled by my own drawings though. I forget that one of the windings is reversed to the other, so disregard my musings on the polarity of voltage ( or lack thereof ), it's an oversight on my part.

Quote from: Pardon on April 05, 2009, 10:39:10 AM
I just wound a new bar last night it has 21 turns wound first then 7 turns wound on top of that. all wires are wrapped close and tight and insulated between the layers. and centered on the bar. if i take the 7 turns and connect that coil to the collector and the 21 turn coil to the base i get almost all battery voltage going to the trans. plus the led is very bright. if the coils are reversed i only get half the voltage and the led is dim. i think if i used a fully charged battery it would blow the led it is that bright. it also ran all night with very little battery voltage drop. what i don't understand is that the voltage measured at the led but after the diode is a small minus voltage like -.04 volt.

i think i like bars they are so easy to wind and seem to work just as good.

I once did a similar thing with a needle, I wound many turns of 30 gage wire around it, and then wound about 14 or so winds around that of 26 gage wire, by running the inner coil to the base and the outter coil to the collector, I got a larger collector voltage than I did in the opposite configuration. This is nearly opposite the effect seen in the toroid setups, I assume that it is because the more winds, the larger the flux..etc. Maybe things are a bit different without a ferrite core, maybe what we did isn't so similar?

@TheNOP, This is what I was trying to say, and you quoted me, but there's nothing showing up in the box? So I assume it had something do do with transformer action?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 05, 2009, 04:24:07 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 05, 2009, 03:15:16 PM
Hi Jadaro,

I am using the transistor as a switch in the way of xee2's description.
I do not get overheating.

AbbaRue gave me a bit of vital info a while back (350 pages ago, maybe) He pointed out that
fewer primary turns will use more amps, and will make the transistor heat up . He also used the words stress the transistor.
More primary turns will cause heat in the primary wires themselves.
So, the 'art' is to find the medium place.

...

jeanna

I wouldn't dare make you read my most recent post an reply, so I put it here instead, :P

I'm not quite sure what you mean by primaries, but I can assume from your latests interest with the MK2 and Hazen's designs, that putting less turns on the coil to base and the coil to collector is what you mean? This makes sense, as a strong field is a good thing, so, I can imagine that fewer turns means less flux generated...and more turns mean more heat gnerated.. and you're right, there's a balance here / there.

But wouldn't putting ( interleaving ) the windings create a stronger effect .... I'll post a picture of a toroid I've been working with,

This would lead to less energy spent on creating the desired effects.

The way I have this setup, if for use with two transistors, two joule thief's setup on the same toroid with the same resistor in front of the base, all coils are wound opposite...but this is irrelevant, I got it to work, but with much less voltages produced.

The Idea is as Illustrated, the red wire is the coil to base and the green wire is the coil to collector, the blue wire is the secondary. In this way, I picked up more voltage from the collector coil than in the secondary, proving, at least, what you've mentioned.

My idea is that putting the coil to base inside the coil to collector would yield a higher voltage across the collector than putting it next to the coil to collector. Not working with secondaries.... and so, imagine then, the black wire is then wound with the red wire ( moving it ), red and black wire being primaries, and then the green being a secondary ( while for now, disregarding the blue wire ). This would put the magnetic collapse closest to the secondary.

I'm currently testing many configurations on this toroid.
---
I can understand stressing the transistor, I think, from what I've gathered, that when there's a load available, and the transistor is off, then it will be less effected my the higher voltage - which can just as easily be diverted away with a diode and a load.

*edit, forgot to post the picture. And edited some keywords.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 05, 2009, 05:09:18 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 05, 2009, 03:50:45 PM
@TheNOP, This is what I was trying to say, and you quoted me, but there's nothing showing up in the box? So I assume it had something do do with transformer action?

really ?
i am sorry.
it have to do with your brainstorming.

the way you explained it was not understandable by me.
the terminology, the words, you are sometime using are not defined the same as in a science dictionary. this is confusing me.

about the base coil/collector coil.
ask yourself what is creating a mag field in a wire and how you can lower or magnify it.
then ask yourself what is the currents passing in each coil and the resistance involved for each.
note: inductances do not have resistance

don't get me wrong, i am not saying both coils do not interact inductively with each other, they do.
simply that that interaction is not what make leds light both ways.

the voltage does not only rise at the collector coils, it rise almost everywhere in the circuit, and since the base coil is in reverse...
that is why the led glow dimmer on one way, it draw the currents that would have otherwise triggered the base of the transistor sooner.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 05, 2009, 05:38:35 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on April 05, 2009, 05:09:18 PM

that is why the led glow dimmer on one way, it draw the currents that would have otherwise triggered the base of the transistor sooner.

So, oscillation frequency then changes when the LED is put one way as opposed to the opposite way?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 05, 2009, 05:49:27 PM

@All,
Am I the only one who is beset by confusing values and inconsistent results?

I have been filling the gaps in my knowledge of some configurations, and although it is not necessary to go into detail yet, I am having trouble knowing what I am seeing.

So, for instance on one coil today:

The scope says 147v Now, the shape is such that there is a lot of straight line like no volts or 1.3 volts or something... then a skyscraper then a plain spot and another skyscraper. Maybe 6 skyscrapers in one screensworth at 1.2KHz. So, maybe the net effect is less.

The full bridge rectifier on this secondary pair only sees 30V OK maybe the skyscrapers have needle antennae and most of them are under 31v.

But the really sad part is that with a pair of diodes and one of those fuji caps I removed from the fujiboards last december, I can only collect 5.8 volts in about 1/2 minute.from the secondary of this jt coil.

What gives here?

Do I need to leave the cap there for a long time? Very long if it is going to get to 100 volts.

Does anybody have any ideas?

BTW the reason for dropping back a bit is because the other day I had a pretty steady series of waves at 120 volts and this did not light my string of christmas leds.

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 05, 2009, 05:55:00 PM

@ Jeanna and all:

I have been keeping up with our topic here but have remained silent as the research at this point is beyond anything I understand....even a little. I have some ideas but nothing to back them up so...I will be quiet and let others that know much more respond to these issues. One point Jeanna with your cap charging experiments, possibly your high voltage spikes (back emf?) are at a frequency that is not appreciated by the caps? you know, like some types of batteries do not charge well off the Bedini but yet others do with the same output? Just a guess/thought. Good work.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 05, 2009, 06:27:49 PM

@ jeanna

You should have a small value capacitor across the DC outputs of the rectifier. It will charge up to the maximum output from the rectifier. Without it, you are trying to measure a pulsed waveform with a DC meter and that does not produce accurate answers.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 05, 2009, 07:19:28 PM

Thank you xee2,

I am still wanting to verify that I am using the right scale on the scope. I don't trust it or me.

So, I took the 2 secondary wires A and B I put a diode on the end of each one facing opposite directions and used these to fill the cap.
That was that.

I was surprised with how very low it was, so I hooked up the full bridge rectifier again.

I stuck A and B into their own slots in a breadboard and in the same columns I put a wire each of which was connected to the 2 ~ spots in the bridge. (600volt bridge)

So now, instead of just reading the outside posts of the rectifier I must wire a cap to them?
Is 100pF enough?

Thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 05, 2009, 07:27:44 PM

I'm getting unusual results too, but I have no oscilloscope, I can only go on intuition. So I've been asking a lot of questions lately.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on April 05, 2009, 09:00:33 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 05, 2009, 05:49:27 PM

Does anybody have any ideas?

BTW the reason for dropping back a bit is because the other day I had a pretty steady series of waves at 120 volts and this did not light my string of christmas leds.

thanks,

jeanna

Jeanna

Voltage alone is not enough ....... you need enough current .

It is my experience that when I connect a JT or camera circuit to a load that is to large I get nothing .......it is like the load just sucks up the energy from the JT
I remember you saying that your transistor never gets hot
I use a pot on mine ....... I check to see what it does as it goes through the whole range of the pot ..... I also check the whole range with several different caps .........MOST of the time the highest voltages are with very low resistance and no cap ......

Remember a while back there was talk about inducing power in more than one secondary ?
Someone said that you can't take more power out of any secondary than you put into the primary .... ......so I suggest you lower the resistance on the base of your transistor and let it heat up just a little ..........or add another secondary or 2 and use them in parrallel

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 05, 2009, 09:02:26 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 05, 2009, 07:19:28 PM
So now, instead of just reading the outside posts of the rectifier I must wire a cap to them?
Is 100pF enough?

Yes.

To check your scope, you should be able to measure the voltage of a battery with the scope and then compare that with the reading on the voltmeter.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 05, 2009, 09:16:19 PM

Thanks xee2,
I am learning things that are obvious to anyone who has used a scope.

What I had to learn by trial because it was not in the manual, is that the probe can be x1 or x10 and the meter can also be x1 and x10, but that is probably to get a close resolution. I need to know what is the real reading. I have learned how to do that by what happened with the cap and bridge today. (I hope. ;) )

Perhaps you can save me a week or longer...?
I can switch the speed from 12Hz up to 240kHz - I can't remember the top.

What does this mean? Is this the length of time between the time markers? perhaps the meter is sampling at this rate?

I sometimes see what looks like a real close up but continue to move the meter in the direction that showed me the close up, and it again looks like a long shot not a closer up shot. This is the reason I cannot figure out what it means.

If I were looking at anything close to normal, it would be easy to guess right.

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 05, 2009, 09:31:58 PM

@ jeanna

Other than suggesting that you check reading with a battery, there is not much I can do to help you with the scope. Most scopes are calibrated in units of time and voltage, not frequency. You should try reading manual again.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 05, 2009, 09:44:08 PM

@ jeanna

Perhaps you could try looking in the yellow pages for a ham radio store near you. Take the scope to the store and ask if there is anyone there that can help you understand how to use it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 05, 2009, 09:44:30 PM

Hi everyone,

I think that what I have run into is what they used to call self-inductance.

Tesla solved the problem of self-inductance with his pancake coil.

For instance, I had a toroid with a primary that took up 1/5 the space around the ring. I had 42 volts using a secondary of only 8 turns. And I captured them in a cap, proof that they were there. Then I added another 6 turns and filled all the open space of the toroid, and the volts went up to 52v. Too bad, I didn't bother with the cap.

Next I wound this back to its starting place with a total of 22 turns. The voltage now read 75volts But I DID check with a cap. It only filled to 4.3volts. That was pretty hard to believe, but now, I think it was correct.

Finally, I did the MK1 thing sort of, and wound the wires really close together went up then down. The voltage on the scope said 73volts. I cought 49volts in the cap in about 10 seconds.

See, I was thinking the way MK1 was winding the wires so close together would make worse self-inductance, but now, I think he really discovered something special. At least for the toroid shape. Thank you Mark!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 05, 2009, 09:47:41 PM

@xee2,
I have an email address for an american help desk at velleman. I will ask there. Thanks.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 05, 2009, 09:57:02 PM

@jeanna

Thank You ! very much for all your detailed research !

Mark

Edit : i think the cross winding help keep the coil pushing and pulling (not just pushing) and help to keep the wave integrity
giving a better charging and robust current.

Also , i don't know about adding current in the jt coil , but a positive feedback on the pickup coil works well , you need at least 2 pickup coils but 4 is better and a bridge of diode .

You rectify one pair and send the positive from the bridge into the second pair , then the negative on the bridge and the out of the coil and your coil output .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on April 05, 2009, 10:44:10 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on April 05, 2009, 02:15:50 AM
@resonanceman
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=selecting+a+transformer+core&btnG=Search&meta=
http://www.mag-inc.com/pdf/twc-s2.pdf page 5

TheNOP

Thanks for the links

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 05, 2009, 11:04:21 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on April 05, 2009, 09:57:02 PM
@jeanna

Thank You ! very much for all your detailed research !

you are welcome. I am grateful for your discovery.

...
Mark,
Would you please say this part again? I am not sure what you are saying here:

Quotethen the negative on the bridge and the out of the coil and your coil output .

Then the negative from the bridge goes where?

Maybe a little drawing? That is hard, I guess.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 05, 2009, 11:57:34 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 05, 2009, 05:38:35 PM
So, oscillation frequency then changes when the LED is put one way as opposed to the opposite way?

yes
the word "draw" is not an appropriate word to describe what is happening, the effect stay the same tho.
by adding the led one way, the impedance of the base coil is changing.

you can view impedance as resistance, but they are not the same thing, it is like apples and bananas.
a true resistance does not vary with frequencies, impedance does.

@jeanna
the values you get from different measurement methods are normal.

the values you see with your scope are peak values, you can also see the duty cycle and the frequency.

the values you see with your dmm across a bridge diode are average values.
still not true rms values mostly due to the duty cycle and frequency.

the values you see with your dmm across a bridge diode + capacitor, without a load, are cumulated energy.

the more spikes you have and/or the bigger the spikes, the more energy you get.

inductance is when the mag field one or more turn(s) of a wire affect an other wire.

self-inductance occure when the mag field one or more turn(s) of a wire affect other turn(s) of the same wire.
since the mag field can create a current flow in the wire next to it, if this happen in the same wire, an induced currents can flow in that wire ahead of the current creating the mag field.
that is why an inductance does not have resistance.

@resonanceman
one more thing about cores materials.
the most important factor is the frequency.
choose your core base on the frequency range you expect it to work at,
because you have to balance leakage inductance and Eddy currents lost.

but keep in mind that most values given for cores are mostly for ac currents.
the jt work on pulsed DC, not AC, so things like Hysteresis are not factors that matter.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 06, 2009, 12:20:49 AM

Quote from: jeanna on April 05, 2009, 11:04:21 PM
Then the negative from the bridge goes where?

it is like connecting the 2 coils in series except that one coil is rectified first.

Ex:
connect one coil to a bridge rectifier
connect the + side to the other coil in series.
take measurement between the other side of the coil and the - side of the bridge.
or vice versa.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 06, 2009, 12:44:41 AM

@Jeanna

Thank , for the fast cap charging test on the cross windings , and this is a positive feedback system .

There is a mistake in my explanation the drawing is better. Tested on the mk2 each coil gave 76 volts 2 connected together 125 volts , and with the feed back 200 volts , it also raises the other coil by inductance i tested the setup on the mk8 and got the higher voltage in the other pickup coil also.

Pickup coil A and C are on the same side of the toroid , and B and D on the other.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 06, 2009, 01:06:14 AM

I hate to be a dragging poster, but..yet another thought on the blocking oscillator action.

Doesn't the fact that a switched on transistor pose a path of less resistance to ground, wouldn't the transistor being 'on' cause less energy to flow through the path to the base based purely upon fundamentals of the electricity wanting to take the path of least resistance?

It was pointed out that inductance and resistance aren't as alike I a once thought they were, this is now obvious to me, :-\, they can be looked at similarly, but only to a certain degree. In some situation, a large inductance may behave like a non ohmic resistor with a time derived resistance - like a bell curve of sorts? All true ohmic resistors dissipate heat ( losses ).

I apologize for my non-tradition electronics perspectives, I have on hobby background in these matters.

---

I guess one way to test the idea would be to completely remove the ability for the inductive forces impeding current flow in the base coil from that of the collector coil..and simply have them not interact. For instance by completely removing the coil to the base, and see what happens when they share a source voltage and current... which I'm off to do right now.

*edit, maybe I should just go take a course. :P ..this didn't pan out at all, :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 06, 2009, 01:18:11 AM

OK Mark,

(I must quickly write this before I lose the picture in my head.)

As it appears to me, the energy coming out of the AC part of the bridge is actually used for a load of some kind.

The rectified part that is coming off the dc of the bridge is sent back into the jt coils.

--
I don't have 120 volts coming from mine. Are you saying I can feed them both back into the jt for another boost? Or is feeding the DC part enough?

I would think it would be.
But I am really new at this electronics stuff. wow.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 06, 2009, 01:22:10 AM

Quote from: jeanna on April 06, 2009, 01:18:11 AM
OK Mark,

(I must quickly write this before I lose the picture in my head.)

As it appears to me, the energy coming out of the AC part of the bridge is actually used for a load of some kind.

The rectified part that is coming off the dc of the bridge is sent back into the jt coils.

--
I don't have 120 volts coming from mine. Are you saying I can feed them both back into the jt for another boost? Or is feeding the DC part enough?

I would think it would be.
But I am really new at this electronics stuff. wow.

thank you,

jeanna

On the mk2 there are 4 pickup coils ABCD , the positive from one pair AC is send back to the other pair BD.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 06, 2009, 01:28:47 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on April 06, 2009, 01:22:10 AM
On the mk2 there are 4 pickup coils ABCD , the positive from one pair AC is send back to the other pair BD.

First, I connect A and C so not to cancel the voltage. This longer wire becomes A-C.
I repeat this with B and D this becomes B-D

I am understanding that only one of these pairs is rectified B-D

A-C is still oscillating. Is it not?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 06, 2009, 01:34:37 AM

@ jadaro2600

Equivalent JT circuit. Transistor works as switch. Base coil is just to turn transistor on and off. Try it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 06, 2009, 01:34:57 AM

@Jeanna

Now that you can charge the cap real fast think at my mk8 i can charge 16 caps real fast 35 volts in 3 seconds easy , it may not fun something a rated at 35 volts dc , but even if it runs something at 5 to 10 volts that would be great.
My 3 seconds to 35v is on a 470uf 200v electro cap and it keeps charging but times 16 so 560 volt at 470uf in 3 sec , that is interesting power there.

In my Opinion you proved my charging claims and concept, Thanks again.

Mark

Edit @Xee2 @jardaro

Maybe a relay could do ? A STDT may be able to pulse 2 coils , cross induction would not be a problem i think and may even be beneficial.!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 06, 2009, 01:35:35 AM

HMM
I am really too tired to continue tonight.

I now see that A and C are from opposite sides of the split jt. I need to see if this is how I divided it. I think I separated it with the highest voltage. The wave is beau-ti- ful. At 60KHz it isn't a pure sine but it is all gentle curves that are almost half above the x and half below the x. I will try to send a pic, but maybe tomorrow.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 06, 2009, 01:46:46 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 06, 2009, 01:06:14 AM
Doesn't the fact that a switched on transistor pose a path of less resistance to ground, wouldn't the transistor being 'on' cause less energy to flow through the path to the base based purely upon fundamentals of the electricity wanting to take the path of least resistance?

in a perfect world, yes.
in practice, it is not completely true.
an ignorable current is still present, but is not enough to trigger the transistor.

Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 06, 2009, 01:06:14 AM
In some situation, a large inductance may behave like a non ohmic resistor with a time derived resistance - like a bell curve of sorts?

yes
while the currents is changing there are no resistance because induction only occure while the mag field change.
if the mag field stop changing, you will have normal resistance to the current flow.

Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 06, 2009, 01:06:14 AM
I guess one way to test the idea would be to completely remove the ability for the inductive forces impeding current flow in the base coil from that of the collector coil..and simply have them not interact. For instance by completely removing the coil to the base, and see what happens when they share a source voltage and current... which I'm off to do right now.

that would be interresting.
the worst thing that could happen is killing the oscilation. ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 06, 2009, 01:49:00 AM

Quote from: xee2 on April 06, 2009, 01:34:37 AM
@ jadaro2600

Equivalent JT circuit. Transistor works as switch. Base coil is just to turn transistor on and off. Try it.

[picture]

LOL, yeah, I see what's going on... I edited my previous post, after I set everything up, I realize that this is exactly as you have it pictured. :)

As always, thankyou xee2 for your patience.

@all, what is everyone using to create their circuit diagrams, ..DIA is giving me some minor issues with template images, I only have access to these inductors loopy inductors, I have to scrounge to create a transformer... It takes some time.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 06, 2009, 01:50:40 AM

I added really a lot of contrast so you can see the curve.

This is 2 combined wires. The frequency of something I think the coil is 60kHz and the voltage is around 85volts

The other pair is similar.

I think there is a lot of good potential here.

good night,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 06, 2009, 01:58:28 AM

@jadaro2600
try TinyCAD
it is a free application that can be found at sourceforge.net

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 06, 2009, 02:38:22 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on April 06, 2009, 01:34:57 AM
@Jeanna

Now that you can charge the cap real fast think at my mk8 i can charge 16 caps real fast 35 volts in 3 seconds easy , it may not fun something a rated at 35 volts dc , but even if it runs something at 5 to 10 volts that would be great.
My 3 seconds to 35v is on a 470uf 200v electro cap and it keeps charging but times 16 so 560 volt at 470uf in 3 sec , that is interesting power there.

In my Opinion you proved my charging claims and concept, Thanks again.

Mark

Edit @Xee2 @jardaro

Maybe a relay could do ? A STDT may be able to pulse 2 coils , cross induction would not be a problem i think and may even be beneficial.!!

I put two jtc, on one toroid, there's am image of the toroid 5 pages back or so, ..it works, but the voltages without a load are much lower then in a standard setup. This may or may not be what you are referring to.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 06, 2009, 01:43:55 PM

@mk1

I have been having problems understanding your successful transformer.

What I see is that A and B are the rectified AC The output is C as positive And D as negative.

I have not been able to replicate your work yet. It is still too confused.

Maybe we can put it clear with drawings, What do you think?

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 06, 2009, 02:31:43 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on April 06, 2009, 01:43:55 PM
@mk1

I have been having problems understanding your successful transformer.

What I see is that A and B are the rectified AC The output is C as positive And D as negative.

I have not been able to replicate your work yet. It is still too confused.

Maybe we can put it clear with drawings, What do you think?

Jesus

The letters are the 4 pickup coil needed to make this, where it say ac its only referring to the diode bridge .
Also i made a mistake in my explanation or the drawing , i know it works i used the drawing to test and got good results
But did i make it like i said instead ?(by mistake)

But if you want to have power to charge cap fast , you don't need that , you just need cross wind pickup coils , use 30 gauge and make it into one wire by twisting them together all of them will fill caps fast.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 06, 2009, 03:01:05 PM

@pirate

You have a nice motor so now is time to get serious , get old hair clipper get the coil with the laminated core and use them for picking up the magnetic of the magnet , and get lots of power !!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 06, 2009, 03:16:43 PM

Mark:

Nice drawing and pic! Does the clipper coil have a core? Looks like a lot of windings there. So, I just use it as a pick-up coil then? What do you think it will put out as far as volts/mA's? I have had my eye out for an old set of clippers ever since you raised the idea way back. I hate to salvage the parts from mine as I cut my own hair (what is left of it) and have for over 30 years or so.

Maybe I can find some at a second hand shop...I will check around. Heck, I can buy a new pair for about $20.00 which is probably cheaper than all that wire would cost me at Radio Shack.

Great post, thanks. I need more power....I always need and want more power.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 06, 2009, 03:26:01 PM

@pirate

I got 3 of them my self on my bedini it reaches 120 v ac, on a 12v dc supply , there is over 1000 foot of wire and there is a core usually easy to remove (if you like air core, really doesn't work that good ) The core is good for high voltage .

My bedini if you remember the picture , is a bedini fan first , the fan circuit charge battery and give rotation , so the dick on top is free and doesn't need pulsing , the disc is made of hard drive disc with 5 hd magnet so the disk is N-S-N-S-N-S-N-S-N-S, 5 cycles per rotation , also the disc design permits coil over and under it.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 06, 2009, 06:36:50 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on April 06, 2009, 02:31:43 PM
The letters are the 4 pickup coil needed to make this, where it say ac its only referring to the diode bridge .
Also i made a mistake in my explanation or the drawing , i know it works i used the drawing to test and got good results
But did i make it like i said instead ?(by mistake)

But if you want to have power to charge cap fast , you don't need that , you just need cross wind pickup coils , use 30 gauge and make it into one wire by twisting them together all of them will fill caps fast.

Thank you @mk1 !

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 06, 2009, 07:16:52 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on April 06, 2009, 03:16:43 PM
Mark:

Nice drawing and pic! Does the clipper coil have a core? Looks like a lot of windings there. So, I just use it as a pick-up coil then? What do you think it will put out as far as volts/mA's? I have had my eye out for an old set of clippers ever since you raised the idea way back. I hate to salvage the parts from mine as I cut my own hair (what is left of it) and have for over 30 years or so.

Maybe I can find some at a second hand shop...I will check around. Heck, I can buy a new pair for about $20.00 which is probably cheaper than all that wire would cost me at Radio Shack.

Great post, thanks. I need more power....I always need and want more power.

Bill

Most newer models contain a motor, and not a large winding... the motor has an offset axis, so that it can cause the teeth of the electric razor to vibrate back and forth wile attached to the axis.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 06, 2009, 07:36:20 PM

@jadaro

Hair clipper not trimmer or nose air remover , lol, i have coils for 3 different maker , even those from wallmart.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on April 06, 2009, 08:18:24 PM

awsome work everyone ;D

i saw the quote bout the PANCAKES... ;D

i have shiped a whol box of rings for testing!!

so ya im sick of the feroite rings ...

time for pancakes n syrup ;)

also i found this kool video online ;D

is it real? lol YOU KNOW IT IS!!! ;)

ALSO WHY WOULD I POST THIS ? lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4JPx0eZdJQ :o

and find your self a TESLA SHIELD ;) ;) ;D

got spinn get tuned ;)

!ST!

so 3 active DNA STRANDS ...... hummmmmm :) well .....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 06, 2009, 11:01:03 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on April 06, 2009, 01:43:55 PM
...It is still too confused.

Maybe we can put it clear with drawings, What do you think?

Jesus

Jesus,

I am wondering if the arrows, or some of them are going in the wrong direction?
Aren't the 2 AC points of the bridge for ac INput? If so, is the load pulling from the toroid before it gets to the bridge?

Also, Isn't the neg on the bridge supposed to be coming out of the bridge?

This drawing and the instructions have me very confused.

Today, I used a diamond shaped bridge, made as Jim described a while back. It works really well. Since I couldn't figure what Mark said in the instructions and since I want more voltage if possible,

I put all the pickup wires from the MK2 in series, and ran them through this bridge into a cap.

The cap was able to collect 82 volts from this bridge.

The scope says the wires are oscillating with 109vac. (remember that nice wave? that one.)

My only problem is that the string of leds doesn't light. I remember someone told Bill to short out the plug of his led lights or something. I have tried several things and haven't got it to light yet. :(

Bill do you remember what you did? Or does someone have some advice on this?

thank you,

jeanna

(I checked. The string does turn on when plugged into the wall.)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 06, 2009, 11:21:56 PM

Jeanna:

I just hooked the output from the JT to the male ends of the plug. Polarity did not matter. I lit all those leds wired in both series and parallel. I think what you are speaking of is the "cold" electricity tests suggested by someone (I am sorry that I can't recall their name at this time...brain fart) where I shorted the 2 male prongs on the plug and used one wire to light the leds. That is the only test where I shorted the two plug blades together.(It worked but only for 100 leds)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 06, 2009, 11:24:13 PM

@Jeanna

Have you tried like the drawing , nothing makes sense at first.

@ISt

I believe it is time you put some of you in the jt ! You can and should adapt your cap charger to the toroid!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 06, 2009, 11:32:54 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on April 06, 2009, 11:24:13 PM
@Jeanna

Have you tried like the drawing , nothing makes sense at first.

I did my best to do that, but I just cannot get started with it. I have the bridge and I proved that I made it right and it works. I have 4 ends that are all ac. A,B,C and D

In the end I used A and D all hooked together in series to try to light the led string that I think should light. But, it didn't.

Will you try to re-state what I am supposed to do?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 06, 2009, 11:36:36 PM

Some of you were experiencing large voltage differences between 'earth' and coil. Who and how?

Was there anything more to this, did anyone make a note of their experiments?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 07, 2009, 12:42:43 AM

Jadaro,
could you give an example of what you are asking about?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 07, 2009, 01:01:04 AM

Well, that's just it, it was a couple of fleeting comments, you noticed this when you first posted results from your oscilloscope, that higher voltages were attained by grounding some part of the JTC.

Perhaps, it was the secondary? ..it came off as a sort of greater effect from grounding. If need be, I'll go back and try to bring up some quotes, but I'm somewhat overwhelmed for time lately.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 07, 2009, 01:01:18 AM

@MK1,
A and C are on one side of the split. A is on the underneath side of the wind. It comes from underneath.
B and D are on the other side of the split. B is on the underneath of the wind. It comes from underneath.

Hook up A and B to the 'ac' tips of the bridge.
Hook up C and D to the pos and neg sides of the bridge.

All wires are attached to something.

Splice a load in the wire A between the AC point of the bridge and the toroid.

Is that what you did?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 07, 2009, 01:12:37 AM

@jeanna

There are 2 pair of coil in series , each pair are made from one coil on each side of the toroid, Test the pair to make sure they are connected properly meaning you get good voltage out and , and remember that like led they are polarized, only on one side(one direction) can you use the magic of crosswind pickup coils . Then connect on those 2 pair to the bridge and test with meter where it say load.

Give me dc voltage with full bridge (4 legged bridge or star 4 diode ) from one coil , then 2 coil connected is series (one from each side) then voltage at the load.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 07, 2009, 01:22:15 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 07, 2009, 01:01:04 AM
Well, that's just it, it was a couple of fleeting comments, you noticed this when you first posted results from your oscilloscope, that higher voltages were attained by grounding some part of the JTC.

Perhaps, it was the secondary? ..it came off as a sort of greater effect from grounding. If need be, I'll go back and try to bring up some quotes, but I'm somewhat overwhelmed for time lately.

Well, I was not using the scope properly. xee2 showed me to use the clip and the probe .

Were there other people? Maybe there were.
Yes, time is short in April in the US.

I am looking for information on grounding.
I got a bunch of information the other day, but I can't seem to find out the reason there is a special ground in the plugs in the ac line in america. This is only true when the use is 120 volts. The 240volts circuit uses both prongs for 120 ac juice and uses only 1 ground.
We didn't always have polarity in our plugs, but now, the juice is only on the thinner prong. The other prong is for neutral which is also called ground.
And this occurs from a center tap, somehow. Perhaps that is why older appliances have both prongs the same and they don't complain about the sockets being polarized.
The circuit breakers are necessary so if there is a melt down in the toaster, it won't keep shorting and bring all the power from the power company into that line and burn up your house.
This means the power company power is going into the earth and not back to the power company, doesn't it?
I am trying to find the logic in the circuit.

At the very least, I have this question, Does ac need to be grounded?
Does it need this so we can be charged? or is there something inherent in ac that requires a ground?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 07, 2009, 01:36:41 AM

I don;t think AC itself needs ground, it simply wants to get to ground, and I think by using AC from the power company designed system, that in fact anything that's used is considered returned to ground, not nescisarily everything going to the house, just what's not returned to the station - this is in an analogous sense and may not be what is actually happening.

It is as if, there is constant push and pull on the line, and when a push stays a push, and doesn't go back to the company, it's gone to ground, is accounted for, and you're billed for it.

I may be wrong, but I don't think AC needs ground, just AC from the power company, it's three phase, or one phase depending on the voltage.

AC is a different concept than what the wall is - say you have an inverter for creating AC from your cigarette lighter in the car, ..there's a ground on the car, but it's not earth, it's the frame, ..and the ac may be going back to frame, but it's most likely going back to the inverter, then back to 'ground' on the frame.

I do believe that AC to the house routes out the same way, what they call ground isn't actually earth.

SO what I was wonder then, has anyone witnessed any anomalies with regard to 'earthing' their JTC in any way? Putting their load between the JTC and earth itself. perhaps via a secondary?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 07, 2009, 01:46:34 AM

Jeanna:

I have always done my own house wiring (My Grandfather owned an electric contractor company in CA) and I was taught that on house ac 120, there are 3 wires, the black (hot) the white (neutral) and the ground. the ground is there to give the juice somewhere to go rather than through you if there is a short and that can save your life. It was supposed to allow the breakers to blow (or the fuse) in time to save you. Now they have GFI circuit breakers which react very very fast so they are safer. A lot of folks died before the fuse or the breaker would trip in the old days.

Now, let me share and add to your confusion. Whenever I would run the romex to the breaker box for a new (additional) circuit, I was taught to make sure and tie the neutral (white wire) to the ground bus. So, I asked a guy once and said " So, the neutral is also a ground?" And he said "No, it is NOT a ground!" Yet, it was tied to the earth ground bus bar. So, I have no idea what is really going on with house AC evidently.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 07, 2009, 01:49:37 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 07, 2009, 01:36:41 AM
I don;t think AC itself needs ground, it simply wants to get to ground, and I think by using AC from the power company designed system, that in fact anything that's used is considered returned to ground, not nescisarily everything going to the house, just what's not returned to the station - this is in an analogous sense and may not be what is actually happening.

It is as if, there is constant push and pull on the line, and when a push stays a push, and doesn't go back to the company, it's gone to ground, is accounted for, and you're billed for it.

I may be wrong, but I don't think AC needs ground, just AC from the power company, it's three phase, or one phase depending on the voltage.

AC is a different concept than what the wall is - say you have an inverter for creating AC from your cigarette lighter in the car, ..there's a ground on the car, but it's not earth, it's the frame, ..and the ac may be going back to frame, but it's most likely going back to the inverter, then back to 'ground' on the frame.

I do believe that AC to the house routes out the same way, what they call ground isn't actually earth.

SO what I was wonder then, has anyone witnessed any anomalies with regard to 'earthing' their JTC in any way? Putting their load between the JTC and earth itself. perhaps via a secondary?

Jadaro:

In your vehicle example, it is grounded. The frame is only the ground because, (look at your battery connections) the - side of your battery goes directly to either the engine block or the frame or sometimes both. (since the use of aluminum blocks) So, it has a direct path back to the battery minus post.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 07, 2009, 01:50:23 AM

@MK1

I said this:
A and C are on one side of the split. A is on the underneath side of the wind. It comes from underneath.
B and D are on the other side of the split. B is on the underneath of the wind. It comes from underneath.

Hook up A and B to the 'ac' tips of the bridge.
Hook up C and D to the pos and neg sides of the bridge.

All wires are attached to something.

Splice a load in the wire A between the AC point of the bridge and the toroid.

Is that what you did?
and you replied with this:

Quote from: Mk1 on April 07, 2009, 01:12:37 AM
@jeanna

There are 2 pair of coil in series , each pair are made from one coil on each side of the toroid, Test the pair to make sure they are connected properly meaning you get good voltage out and , and remember that like led they are polarized, only on one side(one direction) can you use the magic of crosswind pickup coils . Then connect on those 2 pair to the bridge and test with meter where it say load.

Give me dc voltage with full bridge (4 legged bridge or star 4 diode ) from one coil , then 2 coil connected is series (one from each side) then voltage at the load.

Mark

Does that mean that what I said was wrong?
I tried to make the names on the diagram reflect the actual wires on the toroid.
I have made sure I got the highest voltage each time.

They are all connected as I described in my statement.

This is the part that does not make sense.

QuoteThen connect on those 2 pair to the bridge and test with meter where it say load.

Give me dc voltage with full bridge (4 legged bridge or star 4 diode ) from one coil , then 2 coil connected is series (one from each side) then voltage at the load.

In this description I count 6 wires.

Also, I cannot put the high voltage pairs together or the voltage will be lost.

I wrote my best understanding of what you are saying. Please use my words to explain this, if at all possible.

Many people appreciate your work with this.

I will do this part tomorrow:

QuoteThen connect on those 2 pair to the bridge and test with meter where it say load.

What you said about dc doesn't make sense to me. so, I will wait for more explanation if you can give it.

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 07, 2009, 06:59:22 AM

@Jeanna,

***********************
I put all the pickup wires from the MK2 in series, and ran them through this bridge into a cap.
**********************
Try soldering a diode to the end of each output before you parallel all the ends up together.
Sometimes the voltage could go back inside the torid and cancel out the rest of the output.
Any backfeed to the torrid will be seen as 180 degrees out of phase, which will cancel out any output.

Jim

@all

I downloaded a copy of TinyCAD, and have been having a fiddle with it, does anyone know how to change a DSN file to a JPG or Giff file so I can post my efforts here?

The PUPPY is having a siesta on its CD.........................all is not as it seems, I burnt the iso, BUT BURNT IT WRONG OOOOOOH
ha ha.

jim

@ist
Resonance ISSSSS the key my friend. lol
Filling a single LARGE cap defeats the purpose, filling smaller caps in parallel and discharging them together works faster.
When I get my circuit up on here it will explain itself.

jim

@Bill,
I also are struggling in this forum, don't feel you arn't on your own mate, some of the stuff (maths) is way over my head also.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on April 07, 2009, 08:48:08 AM

@electrime: it is interesting that you mention cap sizes and charge/discharge speed.
I have been pondering this for a while, and although my conclusions seem to accord with
standard capacitor theory I still feel like there is something missing, yet I can't pinpoint it.

Basically, a low Farad cap, let's just for the sake of argument say we use a 10uF cap of 10V,
will charge up to the potential of 10V much faster than a 10F cap of 10V will, simply because
the total amount of electrons that is needed to "fill" the cap is 100 times smaller.
This leads to a much shorter charging time given a fixed amperage feed, and so the smaller cap
delivers 10V of potential at 1/100th the amperage, approximately 100 times more often
than the large 10F cap will.
The total energy should still be equal, and possibly even somewhat higher on the larger cap,
since a high Farad count usually also means a better dielectric and less leakage current in the cap.

My question is, although it would seem that smaller caps charge and discharge faster and more often,
they also yield less energy, so which would actually be better to use?
Yes, a high Farad cap takes much longer to reach the same voltage, but at the same time it can
store more actual electrons... And we all know that volts are not energy, so how usefull is it really
to go for high volts at nearly zero amps, thus also very few actual coulombs? If in the end the output
depends on the number of coulombs per second per volt, then sure you can more easily "collect"
a voltage on low Farad caps, but the actual energy you "collect" is proportionally small. And in theory,
collecting more coulombs at lower volts should amount to equal energy output...
So is it really very usefull to collect high volts at very low amps, or could we just as well collect
high amps at very low volts, energy-wise?
;)

@IST: I fail to see what angels have to do with Tesla Shields... Can you explain? :)

Regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Thaelin on April 07, 2009, 08:58:03 AM

On saving your drawing to a jpg, just do a shift/printscrn. That makes a copy of the whole screen.
Then bring up paint, click edit, paste and you have the image on the paint screen. Click file, saveas
but before you save, at the bottom check the file type and change to jpg. Bingo you now have it. If you
want to crop it before saving you can get rid of all the excess border stuff.

thaelin

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 07, 2009, 10:02:23 AM

@Koen
I think you meant to say 10uF 10v cap compared to a 10uf 100volt cap.

Yes, I have been browsing my mind with this for some time now, how to get amps/grunt out of this circuit.
It is like putting 20 x 12v DC car batteries in parallel, to get 440amp hrs.

I don't have enough parts to make up a parallel triggering circuit, but in my mind I can visualise it, what I mean, I can actually see it, weird.
I believe I could do this 2 ways.
Use 1 big torid or use 20 smaller torrids
Use 1 transistor or 20 seperate transistors (Mosfets)

If twenty 10uf x 5.6v capacitors are paralleled up, their outputs can be trigered to fire together, making a 20 times power output.
The trick is to fill each capacitor in turn, so the fill time is important as well as the capatance.

Some circuits of the JT will be able to do this in 1 second, others would take a little longer.

I believe a 555 timer or a DOT/BAR IC chip could fulfill this role, then just adjust the time of fill (watching a DMM to do this) with a T pot, then the next cap is filled and so on.
I bought a LED chaser kitt and built it just to get a better idea on what I should do, it has been on test for over a month on the verrandah.

Anyway when I get to making and saving the circuit it will become apparent.

@Thaelin,
Thankyou for the fix I needed to convert a DSN file to a JPG file
It looks a little complicated, but I will tackle it tomorrow as its midnight here.
Im off to retire.

My thanks to everyones help.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 07, 2009, 12:36:06 PM

@jeanna

First thing first, if you cant get reading from coils in series then there not connected right , you need to connect them good first , i also want to make sure that your 2 coils in series are made from one coil on each side.

The reason i ask for dc voltage reading is to know if your coil are connected properly , there are not 6 ends but 4 the middle is connected to other coils. remember when connecting 3 coil together there are 4 way to connect not 2.

Only then will we talk about the bridge.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on April 07, 2009, 12:46:09 PM

That sound like an idea that will work, now it's time to build ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 07, 2009, 03:39:03 PM

@Jadaro,
I just tried it yet again today,
I saw fleeting differences when I dropped the alligator clip to the ground from literally anywhere on the ckt. I say fleeting because I don't know how to call it. I started at 109v on the scope. This is with all the pick up wires in series. It is the maximum potential of my particular toroid. It says 109v consistently. When I dropped the clip to the floor in my house the V reading went to 111v, but then it stayed there when I removed the clip. My impatience outpaced the system, perhaps. There were more changes, but they did not seem to reflect dropping the clip to the ground.

Thank you for your thoughts.

@Bill,
Thank you for that description.
In it lies my wondering why the second ground on the circuit is necessary. I will be back to this subject.

Thank you.

Jim
I put them in series not parallel.

thank you.

Quote from: Mk1 on April 07, 2009, 12:36:06 PM
@jeanna

First thing first, if you cant get reading from coils in series then there not connected right , you need to connect them good first , i also want to make sure that your 2 coils in series are made from one coil on each side.

The reason i ask for dc voltage reading is to know if your coil are connected properly , there are not 6 ends but 4 the middle is connected to other coils. remember when connecting 3 coil together there are 4 way to connect not 2.

Only then will we talk about the bridge.

Mark

I guess you must have missed it when I said that I checked for the highest voltage. I have checked and re-checked the voltage to get the highest values. You might recall I collected it in a cap to prove that I have it in the correct way.

I understand that there are 4 wires. But your description implies 6 to me.

I am going to try to make a drawing from your drawing of the MK2. I will try to re-label the wires to show you which ones I have put together for the highest voltage effect.

Yes, one coil IS from each side. I confirmed this today.

Thank you for your patience,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 07, 2009, 03:54:15 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 07, 2009, 01:22:15 AM
This means the power company power is going into the earth and not back to the power company, doesn't it?
I am trying to find the logic in the circuit.

At the very least, I have this question, Does ac need to be grounded?
Does it need this so we can be charged? or is there something inherent in ac that requires a ground?

the "ground" in a house is essencialy there for protection against short circuit.

it is true that there are no return wires to a central, the return is done through earth.
but the neutral wire in your house is the center tap of a transformer.

the reason why we now have polarised prongs is because of electronic equipments.

one example are televisions vs osciloscopes.
you should always make sure both appartus are plug the right way, or, that you use an isolation transformer(1:1 ratio) with your osciloscope.

the reason is that when pluged non polarised, you can get a potential difference, 70 volts+, between the tip of your probe and any part of the tv's circuit.
the same is true for a dvd, vcr, etc..., you would connect to your tv, one bad isolating capasitor and you can get a 70 volts+ potential difference between them.

at a central the currents is a 3 phased currents.
unless you are a compagny requiring 3 phases, the currents entering your house is single phased.
no matter if it is 240 or 120 volts is it always single phase.
the neutral in a 120 volts system is the center tap of a transformer.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 07, 2009, 04:17:17 PM

Quote from: electricme on April 07, 2009, 06:59:22 AM
@all

I downloaded a copy of TinyCAD, and have been having a fiddle with it, does anyone know how to change a DSN file to a JPG or Giff file so I can post my efforts here?

simply use the export function from the "File" menu.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 07, 2009, 04:35:38 PM

@jeanna

You did get higher value from the coil connected in series good, there are only 4 coil 8 ends now connected in series 4 ends (you can think of those coil in series as being one coil ) Then connect them like the schematics .

Mark

Edit i know you got a scope now but don't forget the volt meter test coil and coil in series also.

It would help me understand what you are doing, that was the reason for my question on coil.

Like voltage from one coil , then 2 coil in series , then connected like the schematics, i know the bridge part doesn't make sense but do any way and check voltage at the load mark.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 07, 2009, 04:46:27 PM

@MK1
I have made a little change to your MK2 drawing to show how my wires are arranged.

I just saw your last post.

Please understand that this is exactly where I was yesterday when I began asking for help. I cannot make it like the schematic. My best effort which was this morning gave me a smaller result. The series wires were 108v to 111v but through the bridge as I believe you are describing gave me much smaller like 49v (I didn't write it down.)

Anyway here is a drawing to show how they are connected to get best results so far.

1 and 3 across the split, and 2 and 4 across the split. Each pair gives around 80V. When these are combined in series the total result is 108V.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 07, 2009, 04:59:15 PM

@jeanna

it seems ok , but remember the mk3 video of ist he used the same coil to light the led in one way and the other , only difference is on the jt light, one way its good the other its not , the coil in series need to respect that also , once done you connect one pair to bridge like the schematics. Then test the voltage you should get at least 150 volts .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 07, 2009, 05:17:29 PM

@MK1,

OK one more thing before I go and do it (again).

Please tell me what corresponds to AB,CD on the schematic. This is the question I was asking yesterday. (language is sooo difficult, please keep trying.)

This is how I did it already.

I will make another drawing for more clarity.

thanks

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 07, 2009, 05:34:28 PM

@jeanna

Maybe you complicate stuff , a bit . But ABCD are coils , you then connect them in serial pair AB and CD , that is done already , you told me you get 80v per pair, didn't you? Also remember the coil are polarized , not easy to see on cross wind pickup coils ! Since the leds work both way ! (ist mk3 coil video)

Now stop looking at the letters they are there to make a point of using coil from both sides of the toroid to make your pair.

Now to the bridge!

Mark

Edit The AC is for the bridge since it has 2 AC leg and a + and a - leg.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 07, 2009, 05:53:31 PM

Quote from: electricme on April 07, 2009, 10:02:23 AM
@Koen
I think you meant to say 10uF 10v cap compared to a 10uf 100volt cap.

Yes, I have been browsing my mind with this for some time now, how to get amps/grunt out of this circuit.
It is like putting 20 x 12v DC car batteries in parallel, to get 440amp hrs.

I don't have enough parts to make up a parallel triggering circuit, but in my mind I can visualise it, what I mean, I can actually see it, weird.
I believe I could do this 2 ways.
Use 1 big torid or use 20 smaller torrids
Use 1 transistor or 20 seperate transistors (Mosfets)

That is a direction i like !

Things to think about , First the cap charge time , someone told me they change depending on the overall charge percentage , if that is true then we can take advantage of it , lets say it charges faster the first 10% , then you get a one rated at 1000v the 10% faster means 100v after that it still charges then but slower.
Also recover time a quick sparks and the time it take to get it back up.

I think the toroid selection is really important it need high flux properties , and smaller then bigger , the freq is a major issue since more cycles is more power for less, and believe me i wish you all a good toroid like my green one inch,
and believe me there is room for more turns and pick up coils , i could go 10 to 12 on each side , all of of those charge caps fast , a 470uf 200 v get over 35 v in seconds , a 10uf would get 100v instantly , no kidding , i connected 4 of those cap and scared my self sparking caps .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 07, 2009, 06:03:11 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on April 07, 2009, 05:34:28 PM
@jeanna

Maybe you complicate stuff , a bit . But ABCD are coils , you then connect them in serial pair AB and CD , that is done already , you told me you get 80v per pair, didn't you? Also remember the coil are polarized , not easy to see on cross wind pickup coils ! Since the leds work both way ! (ist mk3 coil video)

Now stop looking at the letters they are there to make a point of using coil from both sides of the toroid to make your pair.

Now to the bridge!

Mark

Well I get 108volts. I did this yesterday which is why I asked for help.

Forget 150 volts. It is 108v. And for proof I get 73volts in a cap within a few seconds and 82volts if I wait for a couple of minutes. 73volts is 66% of the total 108volts.
I think you know why I am using the 66% amount.

That is off the bridge as described in the schematic.

I will now do it one more time and I will exhaust every possibility of polarity just to be sure.

I sure hope this works,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 07, 2009, 06:11:57 PM

@jeanna

Ok , i will make a mk2 and re test , and get back at you.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 07, 2009, 06:13:40 PM

@Koen1

the thing about charging/discharging caps is about getting the minimum volts/amps requirement to make something work.

take a 60 watts bulb, it does not require 60 watts to light it.
you might think that this watts minimum requirement must be meet in term of volts/amps per second, it is not.

just like leds, neons, from what we can see from the jt, it take less currents then what the manufacturers tell us it should take to light them.
no power gain here, simply the leds, neons, are not always on, but our eyes don't see it because of the frequency at witch it happen.

take a 10 volts/ .1 uF cap when discharged trough a .1 ohms resistor, how many amps will you get, in say, in a picosecond ?
hint: a huge amont of amps.

it is all about volts/amps time frame.

all this is even without going into the "young" effect...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 07, 2009, 06:38:26 PM

Considering that LED's are solid state lighting, then it's not really that surprising that a high voltage bump will cause it to produce as much light as factory statements..etc.

Consider the fact that it produces light when loosing energy, the electrons come down an energy level, or what have you. Pulsing an LED causes it to do this with frequency, a voltage pulse is most likely a better way to light an LED than a continuous current and a continuous voltage.

There are arguments that this could damage the PN junction, but most LED's, if they're going to blow, they're going to blow, it's only a matter of time, ..that's a very thin lead wire going to the top of that salt-grain sized wedge of semi conductive material.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 07, 2009, 06:38:36 PM

@Jeanna,
Sorry about that, I went back and took a relook at your post, you are correct.
I had better not post advice when I am tired. :-[

For those wondering about this, Jeanna mentioned in a previous post about a series connection, somehow I thought it was a parallel connection. dumb huh.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 07, 2009, 07:20:53 PM

@MK1
Bingo, you got it, this is what I have been saying for some months now, but this refers only to those who want grunt output, not to those who are going for economy with their JTs.

That is a direction i like !

Things to think about , First the cap charge time , someone told me they change depending on the overall charge percentage , if that is true then we can take advantage of it , lets say it charges faster the first 10% , then you get a one rated at 1000v the 10% faster means 100v after that it still charges then but slower.
Also recover time a quick sparks and the time it take to get it back up.

I think the toroid selection is really important it need high flux properties , and smaller then bigger , the freq is a major issue since more cycles is more power for less, and believe me i wish you all a good toroid like my green one inch,
and believe me there is room for more turns and pick up coils , i could go 10 to 12 on each side , all of of those charge caps fast , a 470uf 200 v get over 35 v in seconds , a 10uf would get 100v instantly , no kidding , i connected 4 of those cap and scared my self sparking caps

Actually, caps (electrolytic's) recharge up to about 80% fast, then they soak up the rest in a graduated time scale depending on how much voltage/current is pushed at them.

So the trick is in timing arrangements, does one need the "fully" charged cap? probably not, if you could trade time to charge for time to use the accumulated charge.

Having a adjustable circuit to control this helps.

Picture 8 10uf caps rated at 6.5volts, all setup in a line, then you put the pos and neg lead on the 1st cap, charge it for 1 second, move the leads to the 2nd then 3rd etc etc.
Now connect all the negs together, now connect all the Pos together, then bridge out the Pos and Neg leads, POW.

OK in practice you would need a mosfet in series with each cap, then connect all the mosfets triggers together, then you got POW.

In reality, a timing circuit is used to wiz around to recharge and discharge all the caps, then you got POW, POW, POW, POW
A train of high energy DC Pulses

A bit like a rectifier, rectifying 50Hz, ac to 25 pulses of DC if 1 1N4004 diode is used.

BUT, to do this, you need to take a feed directly from the Pos 1.5v battery to control the pulses.
You need to also take a feed directly to the Torid coils.
You need several in dependant torids or coils, there are a number of configurations, to get a result.

Bill and someone else (forgive me I have forgotten) way back was charging his special battery's/caps, and when he put them all in parallel, and bridged out the leads, BOOOM.

Yep the JT has a fair bit of potential.

@TheNOP,
Thank you also for the DSN to JPG tips, I just love making circuits, its yummy stuff.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 07, 2009, 07:59:01 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 06, 2009, 11:01:03 PM
Jesus,

I am wondering if the arrows, or some of them are going in the wrong direction?
Aren't the 2 AC points of the bridge for ac INput? If so, is the load pulling from the toroid before it gets to the bridge?

Also, Isn't the neg on the bridge supposed to be coming out of the bridge?

This drawing and the instructions have me very confused.

Today, I used a diamond shaped bridge, made as Jim described a while back. It works really well. Since I couldn't figure what Mark said in the instructions and since I want more voltage if possible,

I put all the pickup wires from the MK2 in series, and ran them through this bridge into a cap.

The cap was able to collect 82 volts from this bridge.

The scope says the wires are oscillating with 109vac. (remember that nice wave? that one.)

My only problem is that the string of leds doesn't light. I remember someone told Bill to short out the plug of his led lights or something. I have tried several things and haven't got it to light yet. :(

Bill do you remember what you did? Or does someone have some advice on this?

thank you,

jeanna

(I checked. The string does turn on when plugged into the wall.)

The Rectifier bridge has two ac as input as you said and two outputs. one is negative dc and the other is positive dc.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 07, 2009, 08:16:04 PM

a normal light bulb is not much different then a led, only the way to make the light is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NUbsQt-G9U
at around 33 minutes till the end.
notice how long the light stay on for the bulb.
now, ask yourself, what if this was pulsed instead of being on all the time.
also compare to how long the light stay on for the flash.

in the last experiment, ask yourself how many amps was flowing trough that wire in a fraction of second.
that wire would probably had be able to witstand 450 joules second or more.
450 joules second = .450 joules per microsecond.
but the time frame was: 450 joules in less that a microsecond...
can we do more work with same energy ? ;D

an other example is IST video about lighting an unmodified cfl with a jt and a cap.
it work because the cfl transistors are not triggered until a certain voltage is reached.
with a proper delay mechanism, one could use a normal light bulb to get to the same result.

being able to discharge 60 watts of power, be it for a picoseconds, 26 times per second, should be enough for our eyes to be tricked.
flickering would be the only thing to hint us about the faq it is not always on.
well, due to the resistive nature of a light bulb, it might actually take more then 26 times per second.
but that give the basic idea of how it should be possible.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 07, 2009, 08:51:44 PM

@TheNOP

What you are saying is correct, this is the way we can save 1.5v energy in our batteries.

The same principle is used in the motion picture industry, (not to save batteries).
I once was a Assistant Projectionist at the Huon/Stewart theatre in Lae in New Guinea (during my Hi school days and early working life).
The Gaumont Galee 35mm projectors had a frame rate of 24 or 26 frames per second, this alowed the scenes to be seen as a flowing medium without any flicker, but those people who were sensitive to flicking lights did say say could notice a flicker, hence the words "I'm off to the flicks tonight".

As you mentioned, the LED "appears" to stay on all the time, but in fact it is pulsing at a very high rate.
If you wanted to save more 1.5v DC from your batteries, then lower the hi frequencies to a much lower ON to Off time ratio, I believe the times could be trippled or doubled in battery life.

I asked way back if anyone had a circuit that could pulse the JT to 50 Hz, and silly me didn't write down where the answer was posted, dumb uh.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 07, 2009, 09:06:46 PM

@all
Here is my first efforts using TinyCAD to make a circuit diagram.
I need to give arknowledgement to the original circuit maker as I used his to make this one so I wrote the thanks inside the png file itself.

My thanks to those who sent in suggestions on how to convert and attatch to the forum pages.
TA

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 07, 2009, 09:18:10 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on April 07, 2009, 07:59:01 PM
The Rectifier bridge has two ac as input as you said and two outputs. one is negative dc and the other is positive dc.

Jesus

Hi Jesus,
I think the part that has me most confused is the ac part.

MK1 shows a load coming off the ac end of the bridge. He indicated that is the meter. When I use the meter in this spot as drawn, I get a lower voltage than when the 4 wires are not connected to the bridge. ??

But first let me describe what I have:

Each wire pair shows about 75 to 79 volts.

Then, before I made the bridge connection, I put all 4 wires in series. Like that, I see around 108 volt. So, I believe there is some reduction from I guess phase canceling.

OK so, after I checked that, I disconnected the series connection of the 4 wires and I was back down to 2 pairs of wires each one showing 75 or 79 volts again.

I put one pair on the dc ends of the bridge and the other pair on the ac ends of the bridge.

On the + end of the bridge I get 37volts
On the - end of the bridge I get 51volts
On one of the ac ends I get 3volts
on the other of the ac ends I get 47volts.

These are readings I did over and over. Many times a wire was loose or detached and I did the reading again. I never got close to 100volts through this bridge and certainly never got the sum of the 2 separate wires which would have been 150volts.
MK1 says he gets both ac and dc from this bridge. I am interested in keeping the ac.

Have you made a MK2?
What are your results so far?

thank you,

jeanna

edit add- good drawing esp for a first one, jim.!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 07, 2009, 09:23:06 PM

@ Jim:

Nice job on the circuit!! I'm off to check to see if I won the Tektronix O'scope auction.....it closes in like 20 minutes.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: amigo on April 07, 2009, 09:33:26 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on April 07, 2009, 08:16:04 PM
a normal light bulb is not much different then a led, only the way to make the light is.

If you really wanted to say something like this perhaps this would've been better:

"A normal light bulb is not much different than a LED as they both produce illumination."

and stop there...because the two are polar opposites in every other way.

The whole reason JT works is because of the intrinsic characteristic of the LED.

Somewhere buried in this thread I posted a link to an eBook about LEDs but many have ignored it, so for your benefit I'll post it again: http://www.mediafire.com/?z2i4niwyf2y

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 07, 2009, 09:47:05 PM

@amigo

You are right but tesla did light incandescent light bulb, from hv pulse.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 07, 2009, 09:50:31 PM

@jeanna

Try connecting one pair to both ac legs and the DC+ into the other pair try both ways , check voltage between bridge neg and coil output.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 07, 2009, 09:54:30 PM

Quote from: amigo on April 07, 2009, 09:33:26 PM
"A normal light bulb is not much different than a LED as they both produce illumination."

and stop there...because the two are polar opposites in every other way.

any way, you got my point.
both are emiting light.

@jeanna
don't be disturbe by the bridge diode marking, ~ ~ - +
they are not input/output mark per say.
you can put ac on the - + pins and get dc on the ~ ~ pins.
the marking are only to help us to know in advance what pins will be the + and what pin is the -.

from what i make from your explanations your error is to connect the 4 leads to the bridge.
only 3 leads from the coils connect to the bridge, the remaining last lead and the last bridge pin are where you put your meter.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 07, 2009, 09:55:21 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on April 07, 2009, 09:50:31 PM
@jeanna

Try connecting one pair to both ac legs and the DC+ into the other pair try both ways , check voltage between bridge neg and coil output.

I think I did that.

If you think I did not, please put it on the drawing or something like that, because I cannot follow your words very well.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 07, 2009, 10:01:20 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on April 07, 2009, 09:54:30 PM

from what i make from your explanations your error is to connect the 4 leads to the bridge.
only 3 leads from the coils connect to the bridge, the remaining last lead and the last bridge pin are where you put your meter.

I connected the meter to the ac lead and then to the last wire. That was where the drawing said to put the load. MK1 said this was the meter.

Here is how:

First I set up all the 4 wires as I described, then one at a time I removed a wire and inserted the meter between it and the bridge point where it had just been.
Then I replaced that wire and moved on the the next one. This is how I arrived at those 4 voltage readings from the 4 points of the bridge.

I cannot understand that schematic any other way.

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 07, 2009, 10:04:38 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on April 07, 2009, 09:47:05 PM

You are right but tesla did light incandescent light bulb, from hv pulse.

the story does not tell us with how many initial watts he did it.
well, i am not aware of such data so...
i would not go as far as saying that to prove if a jt can light a normal bulb or not.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 07, 2009, 10:04:47 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on April 07, 2009, 09:18:10 PM
On the + end of the bridge I get 37volts
On the - end of the bridge I get 51volts
On one of the ac ends I get 3volts
on the other of the ac ends I get 47volts.

??? I do not understand this. The voltage should be between the + and - outputs (with meter set to DC) or between the two AC inputs (with meter set to AC).

If one lead of voltmeter is on the + output and you are getting 37 volts, where is the other lead of the voltmeter connected? It should be connected to the - output.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 07, 2009, 10:09:33 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 07, 2009, 09:55:21 PM
I think I did that.

If you think I did not, please put it on the drawing or something like that, because I cannot follow your words very well.

thank you,

jeanna

Well , its not like the schematics , So you tried both ?

And you did try the dc+ in the second coil in both direction?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 07, 2009, 10:19:01 PM

@ All:

This is a little off-topic but then maybe not really. I just won an ebay auction on my scope. It is the Tektronics 2213 with dual channels and a range of 60-99 mgHz. Here is a photo. MrMags was very helpful to me in deciding if this was a good price or not. I started bidding on it at $5.00 and ended up getting it for $104.50. It even has the original manual with it. (thank God) I can't wait to begin to try to learn how to use it.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 07, 2009, 10:20:09 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on April 07, 2009, 10:09:33 PM
Well , its not like the schematics , So you tried both ?

And you did try the dc+ in the second coil in both direction?

Yes, and one way was higher than the other.

Lets see, I have been trying to make this like the schematic. Is there any way you can describe this to Jesus, for instance, so he can fix the schematic?

that would make things great.

I doubt you will find too many people as doggedly determined and persistent and tenacious as I am. If you want people to be able to make this, it needs to be at least very clear since it is inherently so confusing.

Just a suggestion.

thank you,

jeanna

Oh Bill, I am so jealous. wow.....congratulations!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 07, 2009, 10:26:15 PM

@Jeanna

I will fix it if it need to , i am not sure yet , since you can't make it work , is it because of the drawing ?

I need to confirm it for my self first .Are you sure also about the phasing of the coil the positive from the bridge you did try
connected to each ends of the second coil?

Mark

@pirate

Real nice!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 07, 2009, 10:28:04 PM

@ Jeanna:

Thank you. I am going to need a lot of help to learn this thing. I may be e-mailing you many questions........

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 07, 2009, 10:32:18 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 07, 2009, 10:01:20 PM
I connected the meter to the ac lead and then to the last wire. That was where the drawing said to put the load. MK1 said this was the meter.

then the problem is how the coils are connect in series.

knowing that one coil must be connect to the opposite side coil (180 degree) and same for the 2 other coils.
connect to get the highest voltage for each 2 coils paires.

connect one paires to the bridge.
there are 2 ways it can be connected - + or ~ ~, it does not matter

connect one lead of the second paires to the bridge
then check the voltage between the remaining bridge pin and the remaining lead.
change the second paires leads if voltage is small.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 07, 2009, 10:56:01 PM

@Jeanna

I also see that we don't check the same thing , i see your voltage readings are in ac , and i always check the rectified dc voltage, this make a use difference in the results.

Mark

If you get over 100 v ac , that should be more in dc or the same.It depends on the wave shape.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 07, 2009, 11:21:59 PM

@all

I have found new toroid to use , and they look even better then the green wonder.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 07, 2009, 11:52:16 PM

@MK1,
I was just testing for the highest. I get zeros on the dmm for vdc so I used the vac and just went for the highest value. Then I turned on the scope and read it there for accuracy. I am reporting scope measurements, not dmm, unless I say so. If so, I just did it to be expedient. I can quickly see the best connection that way.

Now, I have been using the full bridge rectifier so I don't see how you can tell me you use a bridge and I don't.

Anyway I just ruined it.

I saw it was loose and I wanted it to stay tight so I tightened it up and put a small amount of tape around the outside edge. Now instead of 75volts on the scope one pair reads 20volts the other 14 volts..

Maybe I didn't ruin it. It wouldn't turn on the string of leds, maybe the higher reading was a false reading.

I don't know.

Just for today, ALL I was doing was trying to match my MK2 with the schematic, which I find out was a complete waste of the day because it isn't supposed to match it.

I am not smiling.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on April 07, 2009, 11:58:53 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on April 07, 2009, 09:54:30 PM
any way, you got my point.
both are emiting light.

@jeanna
don't be disturbe by the bridge diode marking, ~ ~ - +
they are not input/output mark per say.
you can put ac on the - + pins and get dc on the ~ ~ pins.
the marking are only to help us to know in advance what pins will be the + and what pin is the -.

from what i make from your explanations your error is to connect the 4 leads to the bridge.
only 3 leads from the coils connect to the bridge, the remaining last lead and the last bridge pin are where you put your meter.

NOP,

It does matter how you connect the bridge to the circuit. AC has to go to the ~ ~ pins and the + - Are the DC output. If you look at how the diodes are connected you will see what I mean.
The two AC connections have their diodes positioned 1 with the anode and the other with cathode on both AC connections. The DC side have the two diodes connected anode/anode and cathode/cathode.
So, if you connect AC to the DC terminal there will be no flow through the rectifier during 1/2 of the cycle.

Tim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 08, 2009, 12:12:41 AM

Quote from: MrMag on April 07, 2009, 11:58:53 PM
NOP,

It does matter how you connect the bridge to the circuit. AC has to go to the ~ ~ pins and the + - Are the DC output. If you look at how the diodes are connected you will see what I mean.
The two AC connections have the diodes positioned 1 with the anode and the other with diode. The DC side have the two diodes connected anode/anode and cathode/cathode.
So, if you connect AC to the DC terminal there will be no flow through the rectifier during 1/2 of the cycle.

Tim

oops :-[
you are right.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 08, 2009, 12:29:44 AM

@jeanna

Sorry you think you waist your time but , there is no way to tell the drawing is bad ? I will test first since i cant get the data to tell from here what you are doing ?

So i guess i will have to make one other toroid mk2 and test my self , and i will ! And i will keep you posted on the schematics .

@all

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru8YQ6HUwbU&NR=1 Important because if its true this is a jt !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 08, 2009, 12:30:05 AM

Quote from: xee2 on April 07, 2009, 10:04:47 PM
@ jeanna

??? I do not understand this. The voltage should be between the + and - outputs (with meter set to DC) or between the two AC inputs (with meter set to AC).

If one lead of voltmeter is on the + output and you are getting 37 volts, where is the other lead of the voltmeter connected? It should be connected to the - output.

Hi xee2,
Sorry, I missed your post earlier,

I don't know if my reply to Jesus answered your question.

There are too many wires to do what you are talking about. MK1 said there was something 'special' about this schematic. Except for being incorrect, I am not sure how special it is. FYI Jesus posted a schematic a few pages back. Jim just added another.

This is a diamond shaped hand made bridge. I pinched a probe onto one of the endpoints and the other probe onto the wire that is supposed to be connected to that point.

This way, there is still a connection of sorts, but with the meter "in between" the parts that should be connected. This should tell me what is happening volt-wise at that connection place.

The problem with the schematic is that there is nothing that comes of the toroid no output. There is a continuous loop from battery jt driven coils around in a loop. The only place where a load is indicated is on that upper ac leg on its way back to the coil.

Except the drawing has the arrow going the wrong way.

I have been trying to get an answer that could shed light on the fact that even though I got 108 volts on the scope - real ones this time- I was unable to light the string of leds that runs on 110v. It should run on way less than 110. The lights should be on but very dim way down to a very low voltage. This is 70 leds. It says it is a series connection, so, I guess it is either strongly protected by being undervoltage, or 2 parallel strings each 35 leds in series. Either way, it should light and it does not. My battery draw is well over 25mA and as far as all my other work shows, this should be plenty.

I am ready to turn a different way.

If you have any ideas about why I am not able to light those lights, please let me know.

as always, thanks for your help,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 08, 2009, 01:10:49 AM

Quote from: jeanna on April 08, 2009, 12:30:05 AM

There are too many wires to do what you are talking about. MK1 said there was something 'special' about this schematic. Except for being incorrect, I am not sure how special it is. FYI Jesus posted a schematic a few pages back. Jim just added another.

This is a diamond shaped hand made bridge. I pinched a probe onto one of the endpoints and the other probe onto the wire that is supposed to be connected to that point.

This way, there is still a connection of sorts, but with the meter "in between" the parts that should be connected. This should tell me what is happening volt-wise at that connection place.

The problem with the schematic is that there is nothing that comes of the toroid no output. There is a continuous loop from battery jt driven coils around in a loop. The only place where a load is indicated is on that upper ac leg on its way back to the coil.

Except the drawing has the arrow going the wrong way.

Jeanna, if the second pair is connected the wrong way around it will cancel the output same thing happen when you connect the coils together, now the bridge going the wrong way ? Your bridge or the picture ?
Anyway i am almost done on a mk3 toroid , i will run some test and we will see.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 08, 2009, 01:41:48 AM

@ Jeanna,

OK. I think by sitting back here I have managed to see where both of you are at with this bridge diode, which is driving you both up the wall.

I think the problen is this, Jeanna knows the way the bridge works, but, dosent understand that the bridge diode can be configured to make it work in a different manner as she currently understands it.

Jeanna, you are not wrong in your thinking about this, as you know there are 4 internal diodes in a bridge arrangement.
But, did you know it is not the rule to use all the diodes, in the bridge configuration?

For instance there are times where a bridge diode can be used as a single diode, the others are ignored, (why? perhapse a single diode wasnt avaliable) or 2 of the diodes can be used, the others are ignored, or three diodes can be used and the single diode can be ignored.

If I break open a simple battery charger, I often see a wire leading off from the bridge up to the PCB board, this is supplying half wave rectifying current to the electronics to turn on the yellow LED.
Most battery chargers supply a pulse or half wave charge to the battery, espicially if it is switchable between 6v and 12v

It just depends on the circuit designer, and that such a "simple" diode arrangement" can cause so much confusion.

If the circuit in question was re-drawn using indiscreet diodes, I think you would have no problems in understanding it.
I hoped I was able to shed some light on this for you Jeanna.

jim

@Bill,
Congrats with winning that oscillope, everyone here is going to beat a parth to your front door ha ha ha. I'll bring my "big" bag, it'l fit nice n snugg, lol. Seriously, the Tetronics range of scopes are excellent, ask the fellow you got it from for some quick tips on setting it up.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 08, 2009, 02:05:49 AM

Thank you all for the congratulations on the scope. It does not come with probes so I will have to find the correct ones. I do realize there is a large learning curve here so, don't expect any fantastic results from me right away....(or ever maybe?)

Since I have started playing with the JT circuit, a lot of folks on youtube and elsewhere always seemed to ask..."Can you post a scope shot of that?" And maybe, soon, I will be able to.

Thanks again to all of my friends on here who have guided me, and helped me with the scope purchase. In no particular order: MrMags, Jim, Jeanna, and also to my friend and associate Gary, (retired Military Intelligence) who taught me in the last few hours how to post a higher bid in the last 20 seconds. We will see what happens.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 08, 2009, 02:09:47 AM

@ jeanna

Quoteauthor=jeanna link=topic=6123.msg169307#msg169307 date=1239165005]
This way, there is still a connection of sorts, but with the meter "in between" the parts that should be connected. This should tell me what is happening volt-wise at that connection place.

I think part of your problem is that you are not measuring voltage correctly. If you measure the resistance between the ends of the two voltmeter leads while the meter is set to read volts you will find it is thousands of megohms (very close to an open circuit). So you were putting an open circuit between the two points that were suppose to be connected. To measure voltage the meter leads need to be placed in parallel with the device you want to measure the voltage of. Like at both ends of a resistor to measure the voltage across the resistor. Your measurements are going to be meaningless until you learn how to make them correctly. Actually, I know that you do know how to make them correctly, but you seem to forget every now and then.

EDIT: Then again, maybe you were doing it correctly if you wanted to find the voltage between those two wires. But since the two wires were no longer connected, the circuit was probably no longer working and so your voltage measurement was still probably not what you wanted. As you can tell, I am confused about what you are doing.

My apologies if you are doing it correctly and I am just too tired to think straight.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 08, 2009, 02:39:14 AM

@xee
2 nights ago I received a reply from MK1 that made me want to make a device like his to capture my output from a copy of his coil.

He said something I could not understand. Partly it was the english and partly it was my lack of experience with electronics. Maybe you can understand it and shed some light for me. He said:
===

"i think the cross winding help keep the coil pushing and pulling (not just pushing) and help to keep the wave integrity
giving a better charging and robust current.

Also , i don't know about adding current in the jt coil , but a positive feedback on the pickup coil works well , you need at least 2 pickup coils but 4 is better and a bridge of diode .

You rectify one pair and send the positive from the bridge into the second pair , then the negative on the bridge and the out of the coil and your coil output ."

===
Since that time I have been doing my interpretation of what he said to me and then doing it again and again. I can't explain it at all. But, maybe you can. I appreciate help, here.

As I mentioned before, I am trying to get that string of lights to light since 108 volts across the leads of the 2 secondaries connected in series ought to be able to do that. - but didn't

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 08, 2009, 02:45:55 AM

@ Stprue,
Welcome to the forum. ;D

Please forgive the lack of manners of all here not welcoming you earlier, dreadful. :o 8) ??? ::) lol

I have been playing catchup, which means I have been away for a few days and have to read up on everyones posts, thats how I came to notice your presence and the lack of a welcome. (just keep looking, you will be blitzed with welcomes now)

Phew, this thread hasnt got out of top gear, it's well and truly oiled and tuned lol

Stprue, nice to know you have decided to make a JT, please post your results, ask questions no matter how out of left field they may seem, you never know, you just might give us all a breakthrew we need, theres lots of knowledgeable folks on here who will jump for joy to help in any way they can. ;D

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 08, 2009, 02:50:19 AM

@ jeanna

Please see the apology I added to my previous post. For the same reason (I think I am too tired to think straight) I do not think I should try to figure anythink else out tonight. I will look at your post again tomorrow.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 08, 2009, 02:50:40 AM

@jeanna

You know that when you put coils in series you need to test the voltage to be sure there connected in the right phase , the same is true when connecting 2 pair of coil together , like in the circuit, so make sure you send the positive of the bridge the right way in the second pair.

But for the signal pushing and pulling , the crosswind (up and down) dose that not the feedback.

The only mistake so far is to have explained it first like i remembered , but i am not sure since the drawing (schematic)is where i got the idea , and i explained it wrong , but the drawing should be good since that is what i did to get results.
Now it could also be that i did not do the connection like the drawing and got good result by mistake , probably not.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on April 08, 2009, 08:08:28 AM

Wow I can hardly keep up with this thread! It looks like everyone is working very hard to move everything forward. I am still working away on my first two pick up coils and so far it seems to me that adding more pickup coils really does not give any more power.

Is that true or have I totally missed the target? I can light no more LEDS with 2 then I can with one? And in fact it seems they get dimmer on the second coil? I was planing on rectifying the AC on the very end of my LED bank back to DC and pulsing that into a battery. I have plans on switching the power from battery to battery to see if I can keep the light shining so to speak.

Has anyone else worked in that direction? My idea is simple with a micro controller I can make a switch that will read the voltage on the wire. As soon as it hits a certain voltage it will switch to the next battery that should be fully charged. At that time the old battery will trickle charge from the back end of the circuit.

Thank you all so much :):)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 08, 2009, 11:11:41 AM

Quote from: electricme on April 07, 2009, 09:06:46 PM
@all
Here is my first efforts using TinyCAD to make a circuit diagram.
I need to give arknowledgement to the original circuit maker as I used his to make this one so I wrote the thanks inside the png file itself.

My thanks to those who sent in suggestions on how to convert and attatch to the forum pages.
TA

jim

I am grateful that you are my friend, but the truth is that the circuit is not mine, is @mk1's. The credit should go to him.

Quote from: jeanna on April 07, 2009, 09:18:10 PM
Hi Jesus,
I think the part that has me most confused is the ac part.

MK1 shows a load coming off the ac end of the bridge. He indicated that is the meter. When I use the meter in this spot as drawn, I get a lower voltage than when the 4 wires are not connected to the bridge. ??

But first let me describe what I have:

Each wire pair shows about 75 to 79 volts.

Then, before I made the bridge connection, I put all 4 wires in series. Like that, I see around 108 volt. So, I believe there is some reduction from I guess phase canceling.

OK so, after I checked that, I disconnected the series connection of the 4 wires and I was back down to 2 pairs of wires each one showing 75 or 79 volts again.

I put one pair on the dc ends of the bridge and the other pair on the ac ends of the bridge.

On the + end of the bridge I get 37volts
On the - end of the bridge I get 51volts
On one of the ac ends I get 3volts
on the other of the ac ends I get 47volts.

These are readings I did over and over. Many times a wire was loose or detached and I did the reading again. I never got close to 100volts through this bridge and certainly never got the sum of the 2 separate wires which would have been 150volts.
MK1 says he gets both ac and dc from this bridge. I am interested in keeping the ac.

Have you made a MK2?
What are your results so far?

thank you,

jeanna

edit add- good drawing esp for a first one, jim.!

The sad thing is that I have not been able to understabd fully the principle @mk1 tries to explain. I am confused and tired of studying an electronics course from RS.

Quote from: altrez on April 08, 2009, 08:08:28 AM
Wow I can hardly keep up with this thread! It looks like everyone is working very hard to move everything forward. I am still working away on my first two pick up coils and so far it seems to me that adding more pickup coils really does not give any more power.

Is that true or have I totally missed the target? I can light no more LEDS with 2 then I can with one? And in fact it seems they get dimmer on the second coil? I was planing on rectifying the AC on the very end of my LED bank back to DC and pulsing that into a battery. I have plans on switching the power from battery to battery to see if I can keep the light shining so to speak.

Has anyone else worked in that direction? My idea is simple with a micro controller I can make a switch that will read the voltage on the wire. As soon as it hits a certain voltage it will switch to the next battery that should be fully charged. At that time the old battery will trickle charge from the back end of the circuit.

Thank you all so much :):)

That is a nice idea. The use of a microcontroller to switch batteries. If you make a schematic, please post it here.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 08, 2009, 11:37:25 AM

@jeanna and @mk1 and anyone that wants to join us.

Let us clarify this @mk2 toroid configuration for everybody.
Remember this will be for the future generations, and for us.

Just save this graphic as .bmp and change it on paint with your ideas. Then save it on paint as .jpg and post it. I will do the same with your answer till we get it understandable for everyone.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 08, 2009, 11:48:56 AM

@ nievesoliveras

I think the idea of a diagram is great. This should help a lot. But, the diodes as shown in your diagram block both DC and AC from going through the circuit. They are equivalent to an open circuit. I assume you are going to attach something to the DC outputs of the diode bridge.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on April 08, 2009, 11:57:39 AM

im just peeking in ... lol

but

i remember STEVEN MARKS.... saying something like ...

i use a full wave silicon rectifier on the INPUT! FIRST.... hummm

Y?

cuz he takes the ac off the small coil .... ;) rectifies it to dulsed dc and powers the big coil with it :)

ist!

:o
i got a picture up here SOME WHERE .... from WAY BACK IN LORDS OF THE RING THRED .... ..

I LOVE BRINGING BACK MEROMERIES.... ;D

same same ...

well then ya kno ... ya get the ist magic feedback coil going on ... 8)

and well im at it lol you need the teteheedron .. and inner circle the outter will be there and free for use...

sheesh ufo next??!!?? ;D

i add this pic ... to visialize ... not nessarly as showen ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 08, 2009, 12:02:05 PM

Quote from: xee2 on April 08, 2009, 11:48:56 AM
@ nievesoliveras

I think the idea of a diagram is great. This should help a lot. But, the diodes as shown in your diagram block both DC and AC from going through the circuit. They are equivalent to an open circuit.

This is just one part of this @mk1's circuit posted by me with @mk1's and @jeanna's comments here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg168892#msg168892

After we get clear this two coils we will go to the other two, then to the two used for the Joule thief. I do hope that you understand.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 08, 2009, 01:45:28 PM

@mk1

A graphic explanation of my first question. It seems that the other one is misunderstood.

The question is on the graphic.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 08, 2009, 01:48:40 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on April 08, 2009, 11:37:25 AM
...
Just save this graphic as .bmp and change it on paint with your ideas. Then save it on paint as .jpg and post it. I will do the same with your answer till we get it understandable for everyone.

Jesus

Perfect.

Thank you, Jesus.

AND your first 2 questions clarified my problems really well.

I will put the results together and post it sometime today... unless I find problems I haven't noticed yet.

@xee2,
I am not sure any more that I am putting the probe clip in the right position.

I read a couple of how-to web sites today on scopes and the red clip is pictured staying on the plug of the electrical output. No mention is made of the black clip except it can just hang there. (of course, I don't have a red clip. I assume this is because my scope is battery powered.) I assume the use of the black clip is, as you pointed out, to be used as the other probe against which the tip probe is measuring the wave.

The question remains, however, is there a place, using this drawing, please, of where the clip should be attached. I want it to be on the ac side of this circuit. I do not want to re-introduce any connection of the basic battery circuit back into my measurements.

thank you,

(anybody else want to help if xee2 isn't around?)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 08, 2009, 02:00:15 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on April 08, 2009, 01:45:28 PM
@mk1

A graphic explanation of my first question. It seems that the other one is misunderstood.

The question is on the graphic.

Jesus

Jesus,

The problem I have with the use of clockwise and ccw is that if the viewer moves to the opposite side the direction changes. If you could greatly magnify the drawing, or better yet use a magnification of the MK2 as I did yesterday. I changed the names adding more names, because it only confuses us to have any names repeated but for different parts.

At the bottom of the MK2 is a clear drawing of the coils and their directions.

Anyone who has made one will be able to immediately know what the lines mean and the questions about the directions becomes very clear.

I think we should assume that someone has one to look at for reference.

A washer with string wrapped around it is enough to make a difference in following the questions.

I might put up a drawing that can be used for changes along with yours. for now, maybe

thank you so much for stepping forward.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 08, 2009, 02:08:34 PM

@jesus

I will have more answers today on the feedback, that said you forgot one coil connection option there 4 not 3.

Mark

http://www.alan.melia.btinternet.co.uk/toroids.htm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 08, 2009, 02:13:59 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 08, 2009, 01:48:40 PM
Perfect.

Thank you, Jesus.

AND your first 2 questions clarified my problems really well.

I will put the results together and post it sometime today... unless I find problems I haven't noticed yet.

...

jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on April 08, 2009, 02:00:15 PM
Jesus,

The problem I have with the use of clockwise and ccw is that if the viewer moves to the opposite side the direction changes. If you could greatly magnify the drawing, or better yet use a magnification of the MK2 as I did yesterday. I changed the names adding more names, because it only confuses us to have any names repeated but for different parts.

At the bottom of the MK2 is a clear drawing of the coils and their directions.

Anyone who has made one will be able to immediately know what the lines mean and the questions about the directions becomes very clear.

I think we should assume that someone has one to look at for reference.

A washer with string wrapped around it is enough to make a difference in following the questions.

I might put up a drawing that can be used for changes along with yours. for now, maybe

thank you so much for stepping forward.

jeanna

The clockwise we are going to use is this one:

We will wind the wire going through the toroid from the upper side and comming out from the bottom, then repeating the process again till the desired turns are achieved.

After finishing the first one without changing the toroid up and down present position move the toroid on your palm so the already made winding moves 180 degrees from you and start the same process again.

That is, going through the upper side through the toroid and coming at the bottom with the wire and repeat.

I will make a graphic later with this instructions included.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 08, 2009, 02:23:31 PM

@ jeanna

Scopes are very confusing because they have so many things that can be changed. Many, if not most, scopes are dual channel. That means that they are two voltmeters with the voltage of each being displayed as a separate trace. A dual trace scope has two probes and is usually used to look at the timing of pulses coming in and out of the circuit. For a dual trace scope each probe has two connections. I think you have a single trace scope. In which case you only have one probe. The probe is just like a voltmeter. It has two connections, one is the tip and one is the clip on the attached wire. Voltage is always measured between two points in the circuit. You can not measure the voltage on a battery with just one lead of the voltmeter. You need to have one lead on the positive terminal and one lead on the negative terminal. Since voltage is always measured between two places, in order to understand where the voltage was measured it is necessary to state what the two places were that were used to measure the voltage. I am not sure if this helps or makes you more confused, but I hope it helps.

For instance in this drawing by jadaro2600 he shows the two points that the voltage is measured between.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 08, 2009, 03:13:55 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on April 08, 2009, 01:45:28 PM

A graphic explanation of my first question. It seems that the other one is misunderstood.

The question is on the graphic.

like xee2 wrote, the load must not be where you putted it.
unless there is a load on the + and - of the bridge, there will be no currents flow where the load is.

@jeanna
just like a dmm your scope got 2 wires to make the measurement.
some probe also have a 3 rd small wire on it.
that small wire on the probe is the same as the other wire.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 08, 2009, 03:14:09 PM

Thanks xee2,
No, it doesn't confuse me.

I want to be able to measure the oscillations that are occurring on the secondary. I want to be sure I am not introducing anything from the bjt, so I don't want to use the bat ends or the transistor legs or the resistor etc.

I just cannot think of what to anchor this clip to. (except another oscillating wire! :( )

Thank you for this help.
===
@Jesus,

When you come out of the center of the toroid and go around are you going to the left or the right from the first?

I think it introduces a very confusing element here. And, please remember this is not a straight rod. It is a washer. So, it is circular and its cross section is also circular. I think this is a lot of the problem, and I don't think we should add to it.

Here is a modified 'blank' from the drawing Mark made of the MK2. I changed the numbers so that each wire end has a new number. What do you think? (other than it is not pretty!)

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 08, 2009, 03:19:19 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on April 08, 2009, 02:08:34 PM
@jesus

I will have more answers today on the feedback, that said you forgot one coil connection option there 4 not 3.

Mark

http://www.alan.melia.btinternet.co.uk/toroids.htm

Thank you @mk1 !

I am still studying my first electronic course now.

Here is the promised Graphic:

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 08, 2009, 03:25:21 PM

@jesus

The only real answer for coil phasing is to test the 4 option get the highest voltage that charge cap without the jt led flikering . That is the first step , it can vary depending on winding technique .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 08, 2009, 03:25:49 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 08, 2009, 03:14:09 PM
Thanks xee2,
No, it doesn't confuse me.

I want to be able to measure the oscillations that are occurring on the secondary. I want to be sure I am not introducing anything from the bjt, so I don't want to use the bat ends or the transistor legs or the resistor etc.

I just cannot think of what to anchor this clip to. (except another oscillating wire! :( )

Thank you for this help.
===
@Jesus,

When you come out of the center of the toroid and go around are you going to the left or the right from the first?

I think it introduces a very confusing element here. And, please remember this is not a straight rod. It is a washer. So, it is circular and its cross section is also circular. I think this is a lot of the problem, and I don't think we should add to it.

Here is a modified 'blank' from the drawing Mark made of the MK2. I changed the numbers so that each wire end has a new number. What do you think? (other than it is not pretty!)

thank you,

jeanna

I was confused. Now I am more confused.
But that is good, because this time we will solve our confusion.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 08, 2009, 03:31:43 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on April 08, 2009, 03:25:21 PM
@jesus

The only real answer for coil phasing is to test the 4 option get the highest voltage that charge cap without the jt led flikering . That is the first step , it can vary depending on winding technique .

Mark

You mean, making the toroid with the pickups and trying the four connection variations till we get the desired result.
I think that for a person coming new to the site is not clear and easy to replicate.

It would be better to choose one of the variations that is exactly the same as the one you are using in order to replicate and get the same results.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 08, 2009, 03:36:00 PM

@ nievesoliveras

Nice drawings.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 08, 2009, 03:59:29 PM

@Jesus,

Are my drawings what is confusing you?

In case, I will just say, I renamed those numbers to 1-8 instead of letters, since the letters can look like ACDC and other confusions we do not need.

@All,
I want to add not to the confusion, I hope, that there are 10 variations or combinations of these wires not 4.

#1 can connect with #5,#6,#7,#8 . once #1 is connected #2 can connect to three others, then #3 can connect to two others and finally THE CHEESE STANDS ALONE! ;D

This is the reason every wire should have a name and every wire pair should have a letter. AND the letters should not be ABC or D, but something never used, which is why I propose JKLM.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 08, 2009, 04:00:31 PM

Quote from: xee2 on April 08, 2009, 03:36:00 PM
@ nievesoliveras

Nice drawings. Where did they go?

Those are from my humble inspiration.

This is the 4 different connection possibilities plus the @mk1 recommendation.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 08, 2009, 04:07:47 PM

@ nievesoliveras

This is the only connection that makes sense to me.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on April 08, 2009, 04:11:19 PM

NOT TO CONFUSE ...

but to clarifly .... ;)

i drew!!

here ya go

take it or leave it lol ;) :)

ist!

369 ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on April 08, 2009, 04:15:10 PM

oops dubble post ...

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 08, 2009, 04:19:26 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 08, 2009, 03:59:29 PM
@Jesus,

Are my drawings what is confusing you?

In case, I will just say, I renamed those numbers to 1-8 instead of letters, since the letters can look like ACDC and other confusions we do not need.

@All,
I want to add not to the confusion, I hope, that there are 10 variations or combinations of these wires not 4.

#1 can connect with #5,#6,#7,#8 . once #1 is connected #2 can connect to three others, then #3 can connect to two others and finally THE CHEESE STANDS ALONE! ;D

This is the reason every wire should have a name and every wire pair should have a letter. AND the letters should not be ABC or D, but something never used, which is why I propose JKLM.

jeanna

What got me confused was the lines drawn circling in the center of everything. Those lines add to the confusion of what line goes where?
We have to choose the way of winding the wires with just single wires at first. Then after deciding the correct one, all the others go the same way.

Quote from: xee2 on April 08, 2009, 04:07:47 PM
@ nievesoliveras

This is the only connection that makes sense to me.

That is the same connection for a joule thief coil. Then if it is that one everything is duplicating a joule thief toroid coils each time the wires are added.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 08, 2009, 04:24:06 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on April 08, 2009, 04:11:19 PM
NOT TO CONFUSE ...

but to clarifly .... ;)

i drew!!

here ya go

take it or leave it lol ;) :)

ist!

369 ;)

That seems a winded coil on a toroid with 6 coils firing to the center. And disguized as an old symbol.
I think that the outside coil is a moebius coil or a name close to that one.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 08, 2009, 04:25:07 PM

@Jesus,

I think you are drawing the primary joule thief windings. ?? ??

In the winding of the "pickup"/secondary coils in the MK series, you wind first up in one direction then continuing to wind you go down.

This actually reverses the wind from cw to ccw (or ccw to cw). Everyone should do this with a string and a pencil or a wire and a pipe.

This 2 directional winding "up then down" is what Nathan Stubblefield did. It is also the way the caduceus is wound.I believe it is the reason for the success MK1 is having.

Plus, as already stated:
In the case of the MK2 you just have more choices for connection. Every added wire going up then down on both sides of the split adds 4 more ends and more connection possibilities ... It is something that absolutely must be kept straight.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 08, 2009, 04:34:41 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 08, 2009, 04:25:07 PM
@Jesus,

I think you are drawing the primary joule thief windings. ?? ??

In the winding of the "pickup"/secondary coils in the MK series, you wind first up in one direction then continuing to wind you go down.

This actually reverses the wind from cw to ccw (or ccw to cw). Everyone should do this with a string and a pencil or a wire and a pipe.

This 2 directional winding "up then down" is what Nathan Stubblefield did. It is also the way the caduceus is wound.I believe it is the reason for the success MK1 is having.

Plus, as already stated:
In the case of the MK2 you just have more choices for connection. Every added wire going up then down on both sides of the split adds 4 more ends and more connection possibilities ... It is something that absolutely must be kept straight.

jeanna

Those are simple single pickup coils remember I chose to simplify first the configuration of the ac current going to the rectifier and coming from the two diferent coils A and C.

If you look the bifilar coil is divided on @mk1 original circuit at: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg168892#msg168892

The two coil separated are at: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg169420#msg169420

Jesus

*******Edit******

You see I am confused. I said coils A and C and that is incorrect.
The coils are A and B. Forgive my mistake and confusion.
The coils I am trying to isolate are first A and B.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 08, 2009, 04:50:07 PM

Ah yes,

Before we go any farther, please change the names of the coils on your basic schematic to JKLM. Or, JK instead of AB for now.

That will help us and everyone who follows, and it is easier to change it today. You may not be ready to add the extra coils and wires today which is fine, but when you are, there will be this ABCD confusion built right into everything. So, please please change the names!

And,
No, you cannot simplify it to the point where the coil just goes in one direction.
MK1 did a very good job describing how to draw this. I have saved his drawing in the original on my computer. I will upload it now, but REMEMBER all the numbers must be changed from 1234,1234 to 1234,5678. OK?

I think making a MK1 is the best way to simplify this. I will look for a drawing if this, although I think there is not such a clear one. You can supply it once you understand the MK2. But I may try also.

I am tired of taking measurements that prove to be meaningless, so I may just like it.

thank you,

jeanna

pic follows of MK2 instrux for making the MK2.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 08, 2009, 05:09:21 PM

OK I found it on page 10 or so of Pirates circuits page. THANK YOU again, Bill!!

MK1's instructions done on Jesus' computer before his motherboard went south!

jeanna
edit
I changed the coil numbers here to J and K as they correspond with the schematic.

MK1 please correct me if I did this wrong. I think it is right.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 08, 2009, 05:15:49 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 08, 2009, 04:50:07 PM
Ah yes,

Before we go any farther, please change the names of the coils on your basic schematic to JKLM. Or, JK instead of AB for now.

That will help us and everyone who follows, and it is easier to change it today. You may not be ready to add the extra coils and wires today which is fine, but when you are, there will be this ABCD confusion built right into everything. So, please please change the names!

And,
No, you cannot simplify it to the point where the coil just goes in one direction.
MK1 did a very good job describing how to draw this. I have saved his drawing in the original on my computer. I will upload it now, but REMEMBER all the numbers must be changed from 1234,1234 to 1234,5678. OK?

I think making a MK1 is the best way to simplify this. I will look for a drawing if this, although I think there is not such a clear one. You can supply it once you understand the MK2. But I may try also.

I am tired of taking measurements that prove to be meaningless, so I may just like it.

thank you,

jeanna

pic follows of MK2 instrux for making the MK2.

I Changed the letters to J and K respectively. We are on the first step of understanding the whole thing.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 08, 2009, 05:16:16 PM

@all

I just tested a blue coated toroid a bit smaller 1 inch and got barely nothing from the mk type design , Also really important
some transistor work better the wrong way around the base stay the base, and most will work well both ways the jt led light just the same in both direction and the difference is the voltage output on the pickup coil it really make a huge difference in voltage , when testing the voltage on pickup coil always use bridge and remove the led on the jt side!!!
So always test both ways !

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 08, 2009, 05:42:04 PM

@Jesus,

Good, now the drawing of the instructions for making a MK1 and the schematic for a MK1 are labeled similarly

We are on our way! What a team!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 08, 2009, 05:47:25 PM

@all
I just finish a mk3 toroid .
I started testing some data, first one coil alone 43 volts dc(bridge used), 2 coil in series one from each side 67 volts dc (bridge used).

The drawing is the winner on my toroid , but i did get other results ranging from 6 volt dc to 40 to 33 to 67 dc.

I consider the start being the one under and the end the last turn back down.

I hope this part could work for everyone.

Mark Now more testing on the bridge!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 08, 2009, 05:51:28 PM

edit You posted the answer to my question while I typed.

thank you,

jeanna

btw please have a look at the drawings and schematic and give your opinion.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 08, 2009, 05:54:32 PM

On a tangential matter - involving this confusion and more;

Why would there need to be more than one secondary? Why wouldn't there just be one that went all the way around? or most of the way?

Or is this what all the fuss is about, testing the peculiarities of multiple secondaries?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 08, 2009, 06:01:53 PM

Hi Jadaro,

It just doesn't work well or at all, depending on how many turns where they start and where they end.

When you go up then down on one side then cross over then go up then down on the other side you get much higher numbers.
Try it . You will see. I just posted a pic of a MK1 which is much easier and way less confusing to make than the next in the series. Make one of these and you will have a start. Then it will be time to make a MK2.

It is worth it, even if I couldn't light that string yesterday.

The close-up of the winds on the grey background pictured in the MK2 instructions will give a good detail of the windings of the single stranded MK1. Just don't do the longer folded wire bit.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 08, 2009, 06:02:33 PM

@jadaro

Because you get current in all secondary , same current ,just more to use.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 08, 2009, 06:11:26 PM

@ MK1

In these two drawings the pickup coils are not wound the same way. In MK1_coil_instrux.jpg if both coils are considered to be wound from start to finish in ccw direction, one coil is wound "over, down through center, under" and the other coil is woulnd "under, up through center, over". Whereas Jt_Mk2_2.JPG has both pickup coils wound "over, down through center, under" when considered to be wound from start to finish in ccw direction. Does that matter?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 08, 2009, 06:13:28 PM

Well, considering this, has anyone tried to attach an actual signal generator to the coil to establish what frequency, if any might be more beneficial than another?

Someone had a diagram of a 555 powering the the whole affair, I was thinking that this may be an easy way to optimize a coil setup, then move to a circuit without the timer having been familiarized with the operating environment under different frequencies.

The core itself is given to chance from person to person, perhaps an optimization method may be in order.

There is tuning with resistance, as has been mentioned before. Has anyone tuned with a fixed current and a variable frequency, or variable capacitances involved in the blocking oscillation action?

On another note, I though about the voltage slamming effect - I refered to it as such because the voltage is produced when the transistor turns off and has no where to go but through a load..

I built a PNP type jtc, and put all of the coils on the opposite side of the transistor - in such that, any large voltages will already be at ground..I may be mistaken though, I'll have to go back through the diagrams.

..and here one is.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on April 08, 2009, 06:18:44 PM

It is my understanding that you do not get extra current in the pickup coils? For example If you have 3 amps going into the pickup coils it will be shared between the 3 coils that would give you 1 amp on each coil. Not 3 amps on each pickup coil. If that was the case we would have over unity would we not?

I might be completely wrong :) And if so can someone please be so kind as to explain??

Thanks!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 08, 2009, 06:21:56 PM

Quote from: altrez on April 08, 2009, 06:18:44 PM
For example If you have 3 amps going into the pickup coils it will be shared between the 3 coils that would give you 1 amp on each coil. Not 3 amps on each pickup coil.

That is correct. If the coils are identical, the current will divide equally.

EDIT: The loads on the coils need to be identical also for the current to divide equally.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 08, 2009, 06:22:59 PM

Quote from: altrez on April 08, 2009, 06:18:44 PM
It is my understanding that you do not get extra current in the pickup coils? For example If you have 3 amps going into the pickup coils it will be shared between the 3 coils that would give you 1 amp on each coil. Not 3 amps on each pickup coil. If that was the case we would have over unity would we not?

I might be completely wrong :) And if so can someone please be so kind as to explain??

Thanks!

Lets not get into this again , but make one , then tell me !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on April 08, 2009, 06:23:10 PM

maybe this is where resonance fits .. :P

lol

ist!

TYG4U ......MK1!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on April 08, 2009, 06:26:26 PM

@Mk1

I am not sure what you are talking about? Lets not get into what? Did you go OU with your setup? If so then I am very impressed!!!!!!

Take Care!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 08, 2009, 06:27:05 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 08, 2009, 06:13:28 PM
Well, considering this, has anyone tried to attach an actual signal generator to the coil to establish what frequency, if any might be more beneficial than another?

Someone had a diagram of a 555 powering the the whole affair, I was thinking that this may be an easy way to optimize a coil setup, then move to a circuit without the timer having been familiarized with the operating environment under different frequencies.

The core itself is given to chance from person to person, perhaps an optimization method may be in order.

There is tuning with resistance, as has been mentioned before. Has anyone tuned with a fixed current and a variable frequency, or variable capacitances involved in the blocking oscillation action?

On another note, I though about the voltage slamming effect - I refered to it as such because the voltage is produced when the transistor turns off and has no where to go but through a load..

I built a PNP type jtc, and put all of the coils on the opposite side of the transistor - in such that, any large voltages will already be at ground..I may be mistaken though, I'll have to go back through the diagrams.

..and here one is.

Good idea!

I have had a feeling that the jt freq needs to be tuned to the resonant freq of the pickup coil.

Can you study that , i personally don't have the tools.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 08, 2009, 06:30:00 PM

Quote from: xee2 on April 08, 2009, 06:11:26 PM
@ MK1

In these two drawings the pickup coils are not wound the same way. In MK1_coil_instrux.jpg if both coils are considered to be wound from start to finish in ccw direction, one coil is wound "over, down through center, under" and the other coil is woulnd "under, up through center, over". Whereas Jt_Mk2_2.JPG has both pickup coils wound "over, down through center, under" when considered to be wound from start to finish in ccw direction. Does that matter?

@xee2,
The numbers 1234 and 5678 are catywumpus. However, if you follow the drawing that has just the 1st half finished you will have made the wires go in the right direction.

When I made mine, since I didn't realize the great number of possibilities of connections, I did not make a good label on each wire end. I suggest that everybody do this. I also suggest after the wires are cut that you make more marks on them to distinguish those cut pieces, and make note where they came from in the winding.

So, because I did not do what I just suggested, I cannot be totally sure, but I believe that you cannot just continue with the same wire. I believe they are crossed with their pair for the best voltage.

It is one of the important things I will test on my next MK2.

So, In South America there is a complex system of tying small knots at the end of strings in some counting systems. I suggest something like this.

1,2,3,4, small dots or marks on the first side or set of coils J and L and
5,6,7,8 on the second or K, M set.

This will distinguish the wires later after you determine the best pairs. And you will be able to connect them to their places in the schematic.

I don't know if a sharpie will dissolve the varnish. I think Nail polish might, so leave enough room for these markings beyond the toroid.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 08, 2009, 06:31:33 PM

Quote from: altrez on April 08, 2009, 06:26:26 PM
@Mk1

I am not sure what you are talking about? Lets not get into what? Did you go OU with your setup? If so then I am very impressed!!!!!!

Take Care!

Nothing against you mate , there is about 20 pages of that argument , and that was not really helpful . But everyone is needed , are you still having trouble ?

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on April 08, 2009, 06:32:43 PM

when you transmitt throught resosance there is 0 loss.... hummmmm...

pic a freq ... ;D put as many antannas as u desire ...

just like wireless i net ... access point users .... ;D

all users share the same freq ... ;)

ist

just my 02 cents ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on April 08, 2009, 06:36:14 PM

@Mk1

I am not having trouble per say. With yours and everyone's else great help I got my pickup coil working great. I am now however extremely confused and very excited at the fact that you seem to claim you have went OU? If that is not the case then please correct me. However from what you seem to be saying is that you get the same current on each pickup coil!!! If that is true then you have done it my friend!

Thank you for taking the time to respond!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on April 08, 2009, 06:41:11 PM

@xee2

Yes that's the way I understand it to work. I am confused however as to why Mk1 is getting the same current on each one of his pickup coils? Did he go OU? I am so sorry for all the questions but I just don't understand exactly what is happening with all the different configurations?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 08, 2009, 06:50:05 PM

There is not more energy then put into it, but more outputs more of the same energy , so it is not a OU principal , but you do get more use out of the same energy.

I think this should be ok with everybody. This is my point more anyway but not OU.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on April 08, 2009, 06:54:51 PM

@Mk1

I still do not fallow? What exactly are you saying? Are you saying that I can have 3, 3 amp loads one on each pick up coil? If I am only putting 3 amps into the pickup coils and I am getting 9 amps out then that is AWESOME!

I guess I don't understand what OU is? It seems to me that if I am only putting 3 amps into the system and I can run 3 3 amp loads at the same time with pickup coils then I am going OU?

Thanks for all the help my friend!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 08, 2009, 06:59:17 PM

@altrez

Lets first understand ac current , its not dc and doesn't work the same way and what are amps when there is only inductive connections(core).

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on April 08, 2009, 07:06:06 PM

@Mk1

Humm I do not understand AC well enough to have any type of intelligent conversation about it ;) I thought current was current? Am I wrong? Please forgive my ignorance!!

Take care!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 08, 2009, 07:14:16 PM

@altrez

MK1 said he did not want to spend time arguing about it. Why don't you let it be?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 08, 2009, 07:17:06 PM

I like to call it a free ride.

Picture the farmer delivering a load of hay. Once it is delivered, the horse still has to pull the wagon back to the barn.

If you hop on top of the wagon, the horse would have to SEE you to even notice. You weigh less than two bails of the hay that is gone.

So, it is NOT without cost. Ask the horse as he climbs up the last hill, but it is no more than was there anyway. That is why I call it a free ride.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on April 08, 2009, 07:31:25 PM

@all

I am sorry if I upset anyone. I was simply curious and trying to have a better understanding.

I am very sorry....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 08, 2009, 08:24:00 PM

@altrez
like xee2 sayed, the results is not 1 amps in each of the 3 coils.

currents create magnetic flux and the magnetic flux is passing through all the coils.
that mean the currents is passing through all the coils no matter how many coils there is.
this is a known physic faq.
does that mean ou ?
it would be true without what Lenz discovered about induction.

the results depend on the impedence of each coil and the impedence is affected by the load.
and this is a good thing.

once a cap is charged, it won't affect the other coils...

@jadaro2600
making the jt with multi coils is not a must do thing.
all depends on what you make it for.

litz wire for low lost at high frequency. <-- btw, that is form of multi coils.
single pickup for very high potential.
multi coils for testing cap discharge theories.
etc...

just build to the specs you need.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 08, 2009, 09:30:11 PM

@ TheNOP and @altrez

The coupling between the coils is very complex. To solve a general case requires knowing the mutual coupling between each coil and each other coil and the source and load impedances. This creates an array of simultaneous equations which have to be solved. This is usually too complex to do be hand and needs to be done using special programs in a computer. But if all pickup coils are identical and all of their loads are identical, then the current will be the same in each pickup coil and the sum of the energy in all the pickup coils will be less than the energy going into the primary coil. I do not know of any simple explanation that will make this easy to understand.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 08, 2009, 09:48:19 PM

Maybe I can help here a little bit. If you power the JT circuit from an earth battery, then it is OU in my opinion...or free energy, whichever you choose to call it.

I will attempt to do more catch-up on the other topic tonight. Thanks for all of your patience. (Finished my taxes today!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 08, 2009, 10:00:54 PM

Hi everyone,
I thought it was time for a little light entertainment. So, I dug my MK1 out of the box.
I re checked and changed the way I was connecting the wires, I have a good amount, but according to both the rectifier and the scope, I have less than the cap collects.

The bridge rectifier which is much more satisfactory than the one I bought ready made some months ago, says I am getting
38.9VDC after all the rectification. This is close to what I got in January when I made this MK1.
The strobe says
25V going up and
24V going down.
Since I still don't know where to connect it I tried a bunch of places, but the highest is with the probe on one wire end and the clip on the other. I don't know where else to put them. I reverse these for the different direction waves.

Then I put the cap cut out from the AAA fuji ckt in place between 2 more diodes and collecting from the - and + of the bridge and wow I got 110 volts in the cap.

My goodness, where did all that voltage come from?

By the time I pushed the shutter it had gone down to 95 so I can't prove it with a pic. But I can prove 95 volts even though it was 110volts when I first measured it .

have a look.
The blurry labeled pic is the one with fuzzy details of how I set it up. But you don't really need to know that, I think.
The crisp one is taken from a 6 inch tripod sitting on an overturned cooking pot. Ha, (I know what a cooking pot is for!)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on April 08, 2009, 10:24:39 PM

Ok well a bit of a topic change :) I am working on my fuji mod and can light a 4 watt tube just fine. However I can not light my Christmas lights? Its 100 mini lights, the type you get from wal-mart. Anyone have any ideas?

Thanks!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 08, 2009, 10:32:49 PM

@ altrez

They have to be LED lights.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on April 08, 2009, 10:34:37 PM

@xee2

Yeah I thought so.. I am going to order some this week to test my mod with :) thank you for all the help!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 08, 2009, 10:42:47 PM

Quote from: xee2 on April 08, 2009, 09:30:11 PM
But if all pickup coils are identical and all of their loads are identical, then the current will be the same in each pickup coil and the sum of the energy in all the pickup coils will be less than the energy going into the primary coil. I do not know of any simple explanation that will make this easy to understand.

i agree

the faq the sum will be lower is easily understandable tho.
the same is true with only a primary and 1 secondary.
it resume to: lost. nothing is perfect.

multiple coils lower some types of losts depending on how they are done that all.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on April 08, 2009, 10:46:38 PM

@TheNOP

I did not try a cap on the output. However they are not LED lights they are mini lights. I am going to order some LED Christmas lights.

Thank you!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 08, 2009, 10:53:00 PM

@all
In still on Post465, reading this I see Jeanna brought up a good point relating to testing circuits.
Where do I put the clip?

My suggestiion is to those of us who make the diagrams is this.
What say we place a marker, call it a TP (Test Point) on special areas of the circuits that one can go and stick a probe or DMM lead to.

If the circuit designer says a certain voltage should appear here, and it dosent, then he/she can go bak and check it further.

ETP being for "stick the earth clip or probe to
TP being for "stick the active probe to"
TP1 = 1st test point
TP2 = 2nd test point
TP3 = 3rd test point

Example Waveforms.
Quite a few of us now have scopes, cros, to help in our research, so waveforms could be addid.

But at this point in time Im still learning TinyCAD, by the addition of a waveform, for a particular section of the circuit, would be of vital help if one needed it.

What say we also put a *Note* area so if someone prints out the circuit, it will also print several blank lines so the person can jot down their observations about that circuit.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Now I gota fix up a mistake I unintensionally made on my 1st circuit I posted.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 08, 2009, 11:08:17 PM

@all
I have fixed up my 1st attempt of making a circuit which is a copy of MK1 original
Corrected the owner name
Added TP (test points)
Added a Note area with lines
jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 08, 2009, 11:10:53 PM

Quote from: altrez on April 08, 2009, 10:46:38 PM
@TheNOP

I did not try a cap on the output. However they are not LED lights they are mini lights. I am going to order some LED Christmas lights.

Thank you!

i noticed it after posting and proptly removed my question in hope you would not get it.
look like i was not fast enough. :)

@electricme
i think the bridge is wrongly placed.
the load should not on the AC pin but on the + or - pin.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 08, 2009, 11:52:35 PM

I guess I am in the mood for light entertainment tonight.
Bill this is for you. It is in celebration of your finishing taxes today, and any good excuse to have a little laugh.

My computer claims that this is 20 K

Just one page of reading. Kind of like a highschool kids term paper on electricity, but a bit too clever.
It is called 'What is Electricity?'
I think everybody should pay close attention.

enjoy,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 09, 2009, 12:35:17 AM

Quote from: jeanna on April 08, 2009, 03:14:09 PM
Thanks xee2,
No, it doesn't confuse me.

I want to be able to measure the oscillations that are occurring on the secondary. I want to be sure I am not introducing anything from the bjt, so I don't want to use the bat ends or the transistor legs or the resistor etc.

I just cannot think of what to anchor this clip to. (except another oscillating wire! :( )

Thank you for this help.
===
@Jesus,

When you come out of the center of the toroid and go around are you going to the left or the right from the first?

I think it introduces a very confusing element here. And, please remember this is not a straight rod. It is a washer. So, it is circular and its cross section is also circular. I think this is a lot of the problem, and I don't think we should add to it.

Here is a modified 'blank' from the drawing Mark made of the MK2. I changed the numbers so that each wire end has a new number. What do you think? (other than it is not pretty!)

thank you,

jeanna

@Jeanna
The purpose of the clip is to anchor it to an earth on the circuit or the Batt 0 volt.
This allows you to have one hand free to adjust the scope if needed.

If you buy a special screw or push on clip for the probe end, you can set the scope up to make long term recordings without having to hold the probe all this time as well.

***************************************
I have a problem with quoting, how do I make a quote, if it is just a couple of lines?
I can quote the whole item, with the black thin line shown or I can quote a single line without the black line shown.

How can I show a quote of 1 line with the black line shown as well?

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 09, 2009, 12:49:10 AM

@ Jim:

Excellent idea my friend! I like that we can post circuits with a built in place for future comments. Very good thinking from down there in Aussie land. About quotes.....Jesus posted about this many, many pages back. If you look when you "quote" something, you see what Jesus told us about....certain computer symbols and all. (I can't remember) What I do, which works but is not as efficient as the advice Jesus gave, is to hit the quote button, and then, while creating the message, I just delete anything in the message that is not important. BUT, do not delete the computer symbols at the end of the message or it will not appear as a "quote". So, leave the stuff at the very beginning of the message and the stuff (symbols) at the end of the message, and it will show up as a quote.

@ Jeanna:

Thanks for the mention of me having my taxes finally done....I am still celebrating over here. What a relief!!! And also now, my scope was shipped and will be here in about 1 week. I am too excited for words.
Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 09, 2009, 12:58:42 AM

Quote from: electricme on April 09, 2009, 12:35:17 AM

@Jeanna
The purpose of the clip is to anchor it to an earth on the circuit or the Batt 0 volt.
This allows you to have one hand free to adjust the scope if needed.

If you buy a special screw or push on clip for the probe end, you can set the scope up to make long term recordings without having to hold the probe all this time as well.

***************************************
I have a problem with quoting, how do I make a quote, if it is just a couple of lines?
I can quote the whole item, with the black thin line shown or I can quote a single line without the black line shown.

How can I show a quote of 1 line with the black line shown as well?

jim

Hi Jim,

When you click the quote button you get the whole thing. It starts with the identification of where it comes from etc. At the bottom is the end quote tag it looks like the word quote with a / in front of it and in square brackets.
I usually take out what is not what I want to respond to. then the person's ID is included.

But if you want to make a quote in a blue box when it is from some other place or whatever first highlight the part you want to quote and then push the button for the quote that stephan has provided. like so,

Quote
How can I show a quote of 1 line with the black line shown as well?

The reason the black line is there is that is how the web page was designed.

The bare necessity for the blue quote box:

As long as the [ quote ] is at the beginning and the [ /quote ] is at the end, it will come out in the blue box, (I added spaces so it wouldn't happen just there.

Does that help? I can give more info if you want more.

===

Thanks for the info on the clip.
I am not sure all of it applies to my probe. Since I don't have the plug in type of scope,

Now, if the purpose is to anchor it to earth, and this is not a battery circuit (being separated from the battery by being on the other side of the transformer) I should be able to have the proper effect by clipping the clip to the alligator clip which is on the floor. Is that right? (You do realize I do not want to involve that battery side of the circuit in this post transformer side, don't you?)

Which is the battery 0 volt? red or black? (electrons goes from neg to pos, but conventional current goes from pos to neg. eesh )

thanks a bunch.

jeanna

btw comments space is a good idea.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 09, 2009, 01:10:29 AM

@ Jeanna:

Thank you for replying to Jim in greater detail than I was able to. I did not know about the select the text and THEN hit the quote button. See? I learn something new here everyday. Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 09, 2009, 01:26:16 AM

Oh OK,
Here is the easiest one to do, hardest to describe.

Select the text. then 'copy' then hit the quote button. The 2 quote tags appear at your cursor, with your cursor in between.
like so, (without the space): [quote ] | [/quote ] So then just paste, and the quote is inserted in between the quote tags and you are done.

Just remember to move your cursor to the end of the second tag so you "get out" of the quote.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 09, 2009, 03:11:30 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on April 09, 2009, 12:49:10 AM
@ Jim:

Excellent idea my friend! I like that we can post circuits with a built in place for future comments. Very good thinking from down there in Aussie land.

@ Jeanna:

And also now, my scope was shipped and will be here in about 1 week. I am too excited for words.
Bill

Lets see if I have done this right.
First I clicked on the white quote flag
Then cleared all I didnt want to see in the quote
Then typed here what I wanted to say.

Now I will post it.

Ohhhhh yes, Bill, what happens if your parcel with the cro dosent arrive in 1 week?
This is a bit like expecting a kid to arrive, Bills going to have a cro he he he.

@ Jeanna,
No, all scopes I know have a clip, (I will go and recheck your model again just to make sure) it is joined to the earth braid internally, goes back to the BNC plug on the scope. Changing it is a bit like changing a bayonet light globe, gently push downwards, twist chrome BNC anti-clockwise and it should come away from the meter.

You should have a detachable scope lead set, this alows you to replace the present probe with Hi Voltage one or just to allow you to get a replacement cro probe lead.

Now do this test, please.

How to check your 1.5v dry cells

Set the Scope to DC.
Set the trace to a speed that is just going fast.
connect a 1.5v battery to the probe, clip to negative

Did the trace line go up above the center line? it should have

Try the same with 3v, 4.5v, 6v
At each of the higher v batts the trace line should rise higher.
When you disconnect, the trace line returns to the middle setting.

Connect a 6v AC from a transformer to the input
6v is 16.97v peak to peak (ie 6 * 2 sqrt 2) Your AC is 60Hz
so you can check the sweep rate calibration by measuring the period of signal.
60Hz has a period of 1000/60=16.67 milliseconds

Check with a frequency meter, eg 1000Hz = 1 ms

How do I know all this, I cheated, read it on line.

Hooroo all

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 09, 2009, 04:39:14 AM

@ Jim:

Good job with the quote thing....you have got it now.

I am paying close attention to your scope advice here as....yes, soon I will have one. As per your original suggestion, maybe the good EE guys on here should start a topic about "Scope Use 101" or "How to use a scope". This was your idea and I think it is a good one. The guys here (you included) are helping Jeanna and I think that is great. But, Jeanna and i can not be alone. I would bet that there are many that are new to this technology and would benefit from some tutorials on proper scope use.

So, maybe you guys that are old hands at using a scope can begin a topic for this? If so, I will read it for sure. I remember when I joined this forum about 2 years ago, I watched a video that Stefan made on his Dr. Stiffler replication. I was amazed at his use and knowledge of a scope. It was like black magic to me. so, there are plenty of educated fellows on here (and gals) that could contribute to that topic, so I call upon you educated members to start this topic and give a leg up to folks that are just now discovering scopes. (This was Jim's idea)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 09, 2009, 04:46:12 AM

My latest JT video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTyDCigcF5U

In this video, I used 2 small (5mm) ultraviolet LEDs inserted into plastic tubing coated on the inside with green florescent paint. My quest in making this video was to see if we can design a circuit that can "pulse" the battery over and above what the standard JT circuit already does. I am using supercaps here and....they can light these LEDs for a while after a pulse. what I am after is a way to do this automatically to pulse the battery maybe every 30 seconds. This, I believe, will give us another order of magnitude of light output from an AA battery. See what you think.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on April 09, 2009, 08:37:30 AM

hey bill, how about a 'drinking bird' that makes the battery connect? that way you are staying away from something that uses more of your battery, ie: the 555, etc.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on April 09, 2009, 08:39:31 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on April 07, 2009, 05:53:31 PM

That is a direction i like !

Things to think about , First the cap charge time , someone told me they change depending on the overall charge percentage , if that is true then we can take advantage of it , lets say it charges faster the first 10% , then you get a one rated at 1000v the 10% faster means 100v after that it still charges then but slower.

Yeah, ok, but I think the point I was trying to make is not clear. I'm sorry, can't really pinpoint where that point is, but I do feel some friction
in thinking about this... I shall try to indicate the point roughly, by the following. If it is not clear, then I apologise in advance. ;)

Thing is, I hear a lot of talk about volts, as if the volts are the charge. They are not. The charge is in the form of electrons which each carry the actual charges.
The number of electrons therefore must effectively be the amount of charge. The number of electrons is indicated by the number of Coulombs, where 1 Coulomb
is one mole of electrons. For more charge to be stored on a capacitor, more Coulombs should be stored in it.
The amount of Coulombs that can be stored is indicated by the Farad count, 1F = 1C / 1V. So for the maximum actual charge to be stored, a high F cap
would seem to be needed. A low Farad high Voltage capacitor stores less charge per volt, even if the volts are high. A 1F 100V cap should store 100 times
less charge per volt than a 100F one.
Now high Volts can of course be used to induce charge movement in a medium, if there are already charges available, and this explains (partly)
why AC can light the gas filled lamps Tesla used for example. So for use in lighting the high voltage AC is of course usefull.
But if we want actual current ouput, then it seems to me that we want to store actual charge, not just have high tension and little actual charge.
Or do you feel I am mistaken in that? If so, please indicate where I'm off?
Then, on a side point, there is the matter of capacitor leakage. Lower Farad caps generally have a significantly higher energy leakage than
high Farad ones, due to the quality of their dielectrics. So it would seem that, in order to minimise capacitor losses, a higher F cap is
better than a lower F cap. Again, if you feel I am off, please say so. :)

Oh, perhaps it helps if I mention that, obviously, the actual voltage on a cap is directly related to the amount of coulombs stored in it,
so it still comes down to the amount of charge. The more charges accumulate, the higher the voltage of those charges on the cap.
So in the end, it is still primarily the coulombs ond only secondly the volts that the capacitor handles.
Hmm... I am afraid I can't really put it much more clearly than that, and that I may still not have made clear what the point is... :(
I suppose it is something along the lines of "Which is more important for our actual energy output, is it high volts, or is it
the amount of charge?" and in that respect, is it indeed high volts with hardly any charge that we want to store in caps,
or is it rather low to medium volts at a significant charge that we want to store?

I am not entirely sure why people keep bringing up the parallel pickups or parallel wires low F caps...
Sure, they can be charged and discharged faster, and at that high voltage at low charge is easy to handle with low F caps,
and sure, you can discharge them in parallel and get the combined charges out, resulting in more amps.
But would it not be equally easy to wind the pickups with much less turns so they put out high charge at lower voltage,
then connect them in parallel and via diodes to a single high F low V cap?
Energywise it shouldn't make much difference, and the high F cap may even prove to be more efficient in use due
to its lower leakage...

... I suppose it dpends on what you want to do with the output.
If you want high voltage output for some reason (?) and you want fast charging and discharging, then low F high V caps would
be best. If you want charge rather than voltage, and you want energy instead of speedy switching, then high F caps would
seem to be better.

And again, please do point out any problems you see in this, and other replies are also welcome of course. :)

Kind regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on April 09, 2009, 08:52:33 AM

"i would just like to know what an electron is" ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 09, 2009, 09:08:06 AM

@Koen,
I agree with you entirely, got no beefs at all, I see you have also poped in to your post a mini post from MK1. MK1 did this in reply to my suggestion.

As we all know the forum is made up of several people having a joint aim to develop the JT, but there are different ends to the outcome.
My main aim id to try and get grunt so I can make muscle to drive a motor, others want to squeese as much out of a AA battery as it is physically and electrically possible, and I take my hat off to them, what they have achieved so far is enormous.

The only way to get grunt/muscle is to have a heavy current draw from a battery capable of doing it, the NiCad can deliver this for me.
So I have drawn up the circuit here to give all an idea of what and how I want to do it.
This is not a be all and end all circuit, but I will also change it in a few days so capacitors and MOSFETS can be used, well its 11PM an I gotta have a sleep or I go troppo lol.

@bill,
I also looking forward to having a go with your scope he he, thanks for the plug about scope skool.

@Jeanna thanks also for all the good tips you sent so I can post bits of quotes, TA.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on April 09, 2009, 09:55:35 AM

i'm still trying to figure out if koen is suggesting the electron is a discrete particle...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 09, 2009, 09:58:33 AM

@Koen,
What is a light chaser? If you click on the TinyWeenyVideo under the postage stamp icon, then it should popup.

I want to incorporate the "principle" of the LED chaser, to charge up 8 CAPs, in turn, then use the 9th LED "HI" or (+) to fire all Mosfets at once, so all 8 caps dump their current together into a load.
I am not going to stick my finger in it to find out if it works, I'll bridge the output with a 5amp fuse instead.
The circuit will take a fair bit of work to figure out, but not too difficult, but any maths, you can do ha ha, I'm dum at maths.

If it gives an indication of working, then I could double up the output by adding 8 more Caps, or altering the time each cap is filled before the next cap is filled.
If it takes 1/100th of a second to fill a 4.5uf 16v cap, it should take 1/10th a sec to fill all 8, so every sec it should dump 10 times into whatever load it sees.
is this right? too tired to care right now.
hooroo all
c U all tomorra some time

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 09, 2009, 10:06:58 AM

@Wilby

Yeah, me too, Koen got me all beat when it comes to maths he he.

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on April 09, 2009, 09:55:35 AM
i'm still trying to figure out if koen is suggesting the electron is a discrete particle...

Now is it a particle of light? a photon perhapse?

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gyulasun on April 09, 2009, 10:22:24 AM

Hi All,

Here is good link on oscilloscope usage for those wishing to get more knowledge on the 'How to's:

http://www.hobbyprojects.com/oscilloscope_tutorial.html

And here is a simpler text on it: http://www.williamson-labs.com/scope-main.htm

rgds, Gyula

EDIT Video on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIfo_-d82Co Part1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUIgAu3QQWQ Part2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_KuGEh0PyA Part3

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 09, 2009, 11:03:29 AM

@all

I found the work on the @mk1 I was doing before my computer got broken.
Looking at the diagrams and with the new posts I have read, I got to the conclusion that the pick up coils winding is not the way I depicted on my graphics.

I will try to explain graphically the winding direction of the first two pick up coils now named J And K, when I get the time and the inspiration to do it.

@mk1 have explained it very well since the begining. We need just a little graphic details to clarify the exact winding directions he used.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 09, 2009, 11:12:02 AM

@pirate

Nice video and nice idea.

@electricme (general)

That idea of yours to get power looks good to me.

Thank you to all the people.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on April 09, 2009, 11:51:34 AM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on April 09, 2009, 09:55:35 AM
i'm still trying to figure out if koen is suggesting the electron is a discrete particle...

:) Hehehe I like that :)

To be honest, I don't really think it is. But I don't mind suggesting it, if that amuses you. ;D

I personally think the view of the electron as a cloud of virtual photons is more logical, but
I am inclined to believe that is still not exactly how it works. I am inclined to believe the
electron is in fact a quasi-coherent virtual photon structure, and perhaps we need to go deeper
still and label it a quasi-coherent virtual sub-photon structure.

Not that that really has anything to do with the stuff I posted earlier, those are simply definitions
straight out of the books.
Now I don't like to use Wiki as reference because it so often contains serious flaws, but on these
definitions Wiki appears to give the same explanations as the books I have (read):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coulomb

QuoteOne coulomb is the amount of electric charge transported in one second by a steady current of one ampere.

and

QuoteThe electrical charge of one mole of electrons (approximately 6.022 Ã— 1023 electrons, or Avogadro's number) is known as a faraday (actually â€"1 faraday, since electrons are negatively charged). One faraday equals 96485.3399 coulombs (the Faraday constant). In terms of Avogadro's number (NA), one coulomb is equal to approximately 1.036 Ã— NA Ã— 10âˆ'5 elementary charges.

And there it seems I shot myself in the foot eh :)
I used a wrong definition. I said before that 1 Coulomb is one mole of electrons. It is not, 1 Faraday is 1 mole of electrons,
and 1 Coulomb is approximately 1/96500th of a Faraday, therefore 1/96500th of a mole of electrons.

Nevertheless, it is this definition itself that suggests that a Faraday, and with it also a Coulomb, consists of a definite number of electrons.
Whether these electrons are indeed discrete particles or not, the definition of the Coulomb appears to view them as such,
and since this is directly related to calculating the Farad value of capacitors and the Amperage of currents,
it would seem that all these formulae do assume them to be discrete particles indeed.

So the matter is not so much do I believe they are discrete particles,
the matter is that by dfinition they are assumed to be, in electrical theory.
If you have a model in which they can be handled as indiscrete particles,
then I would really like to hear what your new definitions are of Amperage, Coulombs, Farads, etc.
:)

Regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 09, 2009, 12:06:08 PM

@koen

I really don't see your point, but mine is if you can generate higher voltage it can be used with more electronics everyday
the logic chips usually work well from 5 to 9 v , now if you can run them from dead battery , you can also easily find 1.5 volt substitute to it , home made battery . The battery i use is now .7 volt and it still charges cap , but please tell me did you try to build it to see its potential or are you just saying those thing for argument sake .

Mark

If you are not a builder , i doubt that you are wasting your time , making points while others make discoveries and get results , not ee book crap .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on April 09, 2009, 12:11:27 PM

Quote from: electricme on April 09, 2009, 09:58:33 AM
@Koen,
What is a light chaser? If you click on the TinyWeenyVideo under the postage stamp icon, then it should popup.

Thanks Jim :) So that's what you meant by "chaser". I have heard such a thing called "running light". Either name seems equally silly,
but at least I now know what you meant.

QuoteI want to incorporate the "principle" of the LED chaser, to charge up 8 CAPs, in turn, then use the 9th LED "HI" or (+) to fire all Mosfets at once, so all 8 caps dump their current together into a load.

Yes, nice idea :) I'm still looking at it, have to think it over at leasure... Think it may be a very usefull setup...

QuoteI am not going to stick my finger in it to find out if it works, I'll bridge the output with a 5amp fuse instead.

Aw, here I thought we were going for the old "burn your finger, join the club" routine lol :)
(those who visited the carbon rod thread know what I'm talking about, those who didn't, well, it's more joking sillyness)
Yeah, better not finger 5 amps, those grunts bite! ;)

QuoteThe circuit will take a fair bit of work to figure out, but not too difficult, but any maths, you can do ha ha, I'm dum at maths.

LOL :)

To be very honest, I am more of a conceptual guy myself. I only do the maths because well, if you don't do it yourself, nobody else will
do it for you either, and if you want some exact figures you'd better go figure. LOL Oh my I'm getting really silly now... Better log off soon I guess :)
But really, there must be people around that are actual math whizzes and can work stuff like this out in a jippy.

Regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on April 09, 2009, 12:44:15 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on April 09, 2009, 12:06:08 PM
@koen

I really don't see your point, but mine is if you can generate higher voltage it can be used with more electronics everyday

Yes, I got that point of yours, I just don't see what's so spectacular about it.

Quotethe logic chips usually work well from 5 to 9 v , now if you can run them from dead battery , you can also easily find 1.5 volt substitute to it , home made battery .

Yes, that is indeed the nice thing of JT-style setups, you can increase output voltage from a 1.5V battery. Still think you'll also increase amp draw on the battery if you pull a constant DC output at higher volts, but I won't press that point as it appears to lack consensus and don't really want to get into arguments here.

QuoteThe battery i use is now .7 volt and it still charges cap , but please tell me did you try to build it to see its potential or are you just saying those thing for argument sake .

Did I try to build what? You act like I am commenting on a specific circuit that you built... I don't even know what exactly you are talking about.
As far as I know you are still talking about your multiple pickup coil toroids... And since I got quite confused trying to get a clear picture of that, and we nearly had a little fallout on the subject of there being any power gain since I misunderstood you and thought that was what you said, I actually dropped your MK coils entirely. It was just too confusing, what with reports of excessive voltage gain one the one hand, accounts that seemed to state actual power gain on another, and dismissal of power gain from a third angle... And then IST jumping in, whose hyperenthousiastic posts very often appear to claim OU but never show it... So yeah, I quit trying to follow exactly
what you are doing. What I make of it is that you are aiming for high voltages for reasons unknown, and I still don't know how much actual power you are getting out...

My recent posts on capacitors and Farad values are, in case you are interested, related directly to my ideas for a circuit. I was pondering the circuit and the
Farads I would need, when this admittedly much less specific and more fundamental issue made me wonder if this was the best way to go, energy-wise.
So that's why I brought this up, and with the varied public in this thread there is a fair chance of a few nice and possibly enlightening answers or replies.
Yes, I do build, but I do think about what I build long and hard before I start building. I know some people do it the other way around. If that works for them,
then they must do that. This works for me, and is also a lot chaper than building a lot and finding out that half of it was useless. ;)

QuoteIf you are not a builder , i doubt that you are wasting your time , making points while others make discoveries and get results , not ee book crap .

Excuse me? :o Do you mean to say:

QuoteIf you are not a builder , and i doubt that you are, then you are wasting your time with ee book crap and making points, while others make discoveries and get results.

If that is what you mean, then I am not at all amused.
Here I am trying to get the picture clearer in a civil manner, and there you go insinuating I parrot e-book talk?
What's worse, claiming you are making discoveries and getting results, while you've really only been posting more of the same
for weeks now, that you're getting high voltages. What amazing progress and grand discoveries, that you are still getting high
voltage from a transformer... What grand discoveries did you make then? What, besides the higher voltages, are you getting?
Please don't act like you are the pioneer who is very busy doing important discoveries and I am an idiot. That is not nice.
If you are such a great pioneer and have made such impressive discoveries, perhaps you can clearly explain what they are then,
before you start making negative ans accusing remarks about others?

Regards,
Koen

P.S. If anyone else is as annoyed with me trying to get some things straight as MK appears to be,
please say so... and I'll try to keep out of your thread.

[/quote]

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 09, 2009, 12:52:34 PM

Hi Koen,
I think the reason folks use the volts numbers for their capacitor descriptions is that the meters we own measure volts not Farade. So, they do work together and the volts measure does indicate the farads measure, somehow.
Don't ask me to do it, please, cuz I couldn't.

@all the scope helpers,

Thank you for all your suggestions. I am now armed with the right questions to ask the velleman help desk.

I will study the manual to find out how to make the screen keep the DC option so I can use it. (or ask them)

I will ask them how they propose I should set a zero reference. (using the clip that is shown in the picture but is never even mentioned in words in the manual.)

stuff like that. Thank you all ,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 09, 2009, 01:14:16 PM

@koen1

All i am saying is show something i never heard about, and yes sometimes things go beyond logic, you can tell me i am wrong all you want dude , i personally don't care , all i am saying is unless you build it you will not get much , Like tesla call them initiated ones, people that build to learn in the process , Stop hiding behind your calculator !

Let me ask you all those laws 200 years old , are they always right ? Then tell me , lab data and laws always match.
The problem is no one took the time to make sure they are , the only way to do so is to mirror them if they don't work both way them those laws sounds more like clues , questioning results ? question the model!

Beside telling people are wrong , what can you give us , maybe ideas on modification? and constructive ?
Its harder when you need to get down to it?

I usually read all post , i am sorry i even bothered to read yours , i am still waiting your input but only downput , no lab testing ? or picture , schematic , or idea , so what is your goal.

You seem to say you know this stuff , then show us something new . Not picking one people to raise your self worth , and i am a easy pray , since i don't really care what other think , education is a good thing but can also be a prison .

I can admit when i am wrong , but so far i have no reason to do so .

Mark

Edit : I don't claim OU since it logically can't be , there will never be more energy then inputted in the system, but using only one secondary is a waist of energy , since all coil are subject by the same flux and exhibit the same properties this doesn't break any laws, so yes the current is the same in all coil on a toroid , having a bad toroid will produce more lost , i even posted picture many times showing those high voltage ! what else do you need , and some people did even better , As far as suggestion of OU then i would say people are funny since they only see what they are programed to , and that always affect the way we read things and see , i am not any different and i like to say to my defense i have a different conception of what is needed in this world , battery charging motors are a good beginning but at one point we need to realize that charging battery is energy losing process , because battery are hard to charge and time consuming, But since we would only need 1.5 volts on this technology we could still do charging battery but from chemical reaction , home made battery , cheap made from recycled household product , that is almost free , now why would i even care to claim OU, Since its not the concept anyway , you make those claims your self , but that being said having more output of the same current its a improvement , and yes i made improvement on the jt design , the first i made was to put one secondary on a regular jt , last year , now i can put 20 , and they all give me the same so , what can i say .

Edit again , Yes there is loss of energy in the toroid , get a radio and a jt the radio will pick it up , now tell me if i had 20 radio , only one would work? same with the coil !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 09, 2009, 01:24:00 PM

OK all you scop-ies (scopie, noun = person who knows how to use a scope)

Where would YOU connect the ground probe if YOU were to test the secondary from a joule thief?

Please, if you don't mind, test a few usual places and see what seems to be right to you.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 09, 2009, 01:51:28 PM

@all

I Just found this , the circuit could be adapted for jt , but also the circled part is interesting there is a coil there humm...

I also did more test on the positive feed back i got 90 dc volts, but it was late , i will make some more today.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 09, 2009, 02:12:36 PM

@all

Ok gadget showed us that creating a resonance on the base coil , can lower the amp draw , the following circuit dose the same but on the collector coil using the hho cell like a capacitor, we could use the idea and make thanks to gadget and Guru , a double resonant circuit both coil , humm ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 09, 2009, 02:49:02 PM

Here is something we can do with a joule thief. ...Light 100 leds on 1 battery per sheep.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2FX9rviEhw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2FX9rviEhw)

We probably won't but it is quite a sight.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 09, 2009, 02:53:14 PM

@all

More interesting stuff from Lidmotor http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khS827uuqfM&feature=channel

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 09, 2009, 03:04:13 PM

Mark,
I am winding a MK1 on a blue toroid. It is both thicker or taller in the cross section of the ferrite, and bigger in diameter than the one I used before.

I could probably fit more than 13 up and 12 down (per side) with the extra space.

I am wondering if you have any reason that you use the number of winds you do?

I am assuming it is the best fit, but I can change it easier now than later, so I am asking now.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on April 09, 2009, 03:16:51 PM

Quote from: Koen1 on April 09, 2009, 11:51:34 AM
:) Hehehe I like that :)

To be honest, I don't really think it is. But I don't mind suggesting it, if that amuses you. ;D

I personally think the view of the electron as a cloud of virtual photons is more logical, but
I am inclined to believe that is still not exactly how it works. I am inclined to believe the
electron is in fact a quasi-coherent virtual photon structure, and perhaps we need to go deeper
still and label it a quasi-coherent virtual sub-photon structure.

Not that that really has anything to do with the stuff I posted earlier, those are simply definitions
straight out of the books.
Now I don't like to use Wiki as reference because it so often contains serious flaws, but on these
definitions Wiki appears to give the same explanations as the books I have (read):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coulomb and
And there it seems I shot myself in the foot eh :)
I used a wrong definition. I said before that 1 Coulomb is one mole of electrons. It is not, 1 Faraday is 1 mole of electrons,
and 1 Coulomb is approximately 1/96500th of a Faraday, therefore 1/96500th of a mole of electrons.

Nevertheless, it is this definition itself that suggests that a Faraday, and with it also a Coulomb, consists of a definite number of electrons.
Whether these electrons are indeed discrete particles or not, the definition of the Coulomb appears to view them as such,
and since this is directly related to calculating the Farad value of capacitors and the Amperage of currents,
it would seem that all these formulae do assume them to be discrete particles indeed.

So the matter is not so much do I believe they are discrete particles,
the matter is that by dfinition they are assumed to be, in electrical theory.
If you have a model in which they can be handled as indiscrete particles,
then I would really like to hear what your new definitions are of Amperage, Coulombs, Farads, etc.
:)

Regards,
Koen

oh i was amused all right. ;)
well said, but, there are a couple problems with assuming the electron is a discrete particle... assuming a discrete particle gives us trouble with maxwell's equations, as there are no wave solutions in spherical coordinates and the discrete electron has spherical symmetry. another problem is the infinite fields (singularities) of the point electron at the center. singularity avoidance was attempted using a "renormalization" process wherein infinity was subtracted from infinity to obtain the desired result. i don't think you or anyone else would call such 'sensible math'. ;)
i quoted einstein's question about the electron because einstein wished to resolve the disparity between the experimental properties of the electron and the commonly assumed discrete electron. he also wanted to know why it appears that “god plays dice” according to the uncertainty interpretation of quantum
mechanics using assumed discrete electrons, that he did not believe, which i do not believe either. it has been resolved, by wolff, meade and haselhurst who found that the wave structure completely replaces the material particle. this is what einstein wanted to know. finding that the material particle electron does not exist, removes the probabilistic interpretation of the wave functions and assures us that 'god does not play dice'. i could infact argue that quantum waves are indeed real and e m waves are not... ;)
but that's a different discussion for another time/place.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 09, 2009, 03:19:54 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on April 09, 2009, 02:53:14 PM
@all

More interesting stuff from Lidmotor http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khS827uuqfM&feature=channel

Pretty interesting.
I like the part that shows the connection between the spikes forming and the leds going on.

thank you MK1 and lidmotor,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 09, 2009, 03:21:13 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on April 09, 2009, 04:46:12 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTyDCigcF5U

from a circuit energy usage point of view, the energy usage will stay the same with or without the super caps.
the battery, when connected, will have to feed the jt circuit and charge the caps at the same time.
the energy stored in the caps is drainning from the battery then used when the battery is disconnected.

the only thing that might make the battery last longer is the chimical reaction inside the battery due to the relaxation time.

Quote from: Koen1 on April 09, 2009, 08:39:31 AM
I suppose it is something along the lines of "Which is more important for our actual energy output, is it high volts, or is it
the amount of charge?" and in that respect, is it indeed high volts with hardly any charge that we want to store in caps,
or is it rather low to medium volts at a significant charge that we want to store?

check back my post on the MIT caps experiments.
try to investigate all the aspects of those experiments.
specially on what happen when you discharge a cap.

Quote from: Koen1 on April 09, 2009, 08:39:31 AM
... I suppose it dpends on what you want to do with the output.

exactly.
the voltage and amps must fit the application for witch you build your circuit for.
if your need is to blow wires then you need lots of coulombs.

take a 10 volts 10uF cap, fill it to 3 volts and connect a 3 volts led to it.
why did the led blowed up ? you only had 3 volts 10 microamps in that cap.
do we really need lots of charges ?

for me, the talk about the "power gain" is about efficientcy gain.
if it is more efficient you have more power out that you would normally had by other ways.
the "test it and see it by yourself" is a must do thing.
it does not automaticaly imply a ou claim.

one can beleive what he want to beleive, but when facing the test results, one can no longer make assomptions of what was actually meant.

@electricme
i can't make out if you talk about discharging the caps at same time or sequencialy.

i think a cascade discharge would be more appropriate.
i was wondering how to do that.
using leds chaser..., nice idea.
might work
thanks

Quote from: jeanna on April 09, 2009, 01:24:00 PM
Where would YOU connect the ground probe if YOU were to test the secondary from a joule thief?

Please, if you don't mind, test a few usual places and see what seems to be right to you.

to one of the secondary lead of the coils you want to measure and the other probe to the other lead.

a scope is like a dmm.
if you want to measure the potential difference between one of the battery post and your coil then that is where you need to put your probes(probe and "ground").
this is a bad example tho, that would not be a usefull measurement most of the times.

so i guess what is buggling you is if your measurements are meaningfull or not, is that it ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 09, 2009, 03:23:18 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 09, 2009, 03:04:13 PM
Mark,
I am winding a MK1 on a blue toroid. It is both thicker or taller in the cross section of the ferrite, and bigger in diameter than the one I used before.

I could probably fit more than 13 up and 12 down (per side) with the extra space.

I am wondering if you have any reason that you use the number of winds you do?

I am assuming it is the best fit, but I can change it easier now than later, so I am asking now.

thank you,

jeanna

The only reason for the number of turns is to get the most out a given space, i usually test with one wire of the size i will use then put has many turns possible going one way , that gives me a idea of how many turns can be fitted nicely , on one row , lets say i want to make a mk2 i would take that number and divide it by 2 , mk3 by 3 etc. that gives me the number of turns i can fit one way , usually on the way down to keep it nice you can't fit that many so usually the way up has more turns then the way down.

That said all toroid are different so that first coil will also give me test voltage , because i test the test coil , first to get a idea of the toroid flux , and know then if the toroid is good for a mk design coil , also this is the point where i test the number of jt coil needed for that toroid , just enough, if you put to many turns on the jt side it lowers the pickup coil voltage and coil ratio.

Those data are needed to get the best results , since all toroid are different .Also try lighting a led both ways on the one way coil , it wont , but one the coil goes both ways the led will also do.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 09, 2009, 03:34:09 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on April 09, 2009, 03:23:18 PM
The only reason for the number of turns is to get the most out a given space,

OK good.

Because, you also want all the wires to be able to touch the toroid, don't you? I think I remember from way back that there should only be one row thickness.

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 09, 2009, 03:44:50 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 09, 2009, 03:34:09 PM
OK good.

Because, you also want all the wires to be able to touch the toroid, don't you? I think I remember from way back that there should only be one row thickness.

thanks,

jeanna

Yes , that is part of the plan , by knowing the exact number of turns for the space then all coil will be touching the toroid on the out side but there will be a second row on the inside since it smaller but on the out side there will be enough space for sitting them tight on the core not the other coils. also the data you have at that point will suggest adjustment like going to a smaller wire for more turns to get higher voltages.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 09, 2009, 03:54:54 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on April 09, 2009, 01:24:00 PM
OK all you scop-ies (scopie, noun = person who knows how to use a scope)

Where would YOU connect the ground probe if YOU were to test the secondary from a joule thief?

Please, if you don't mind, test a few usual places and see what seems to be right to you.

thank you,

jeanna

You can place the ground clip anywhere. But, unless you tell where it is no one will know what voltage you are measuring. Just saying I measured 10 volts is meaningless. You need to say what two places the voltage was measured between. To measure the voltage generated in a coil, you would connect the clip to one end of the coil and the probe to the other end. But if you do not say that is where you are measuring, then the reader could think you are measuring between some other two points.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 09, 2009, 04:09:28 PM

@xee2,

Thank you.

I will be clear that I measure between the 2 wires.

I assume the way to say this is NOT across since there is nothing it is across from. A cavern of space exists between the 2 wires, so I assume between describes it pretty well.

Really then, one becomes the ground or reference point for the other.

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 09, 2009, 04:24:26 PM

@ @ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on April 09, 2009, 04:09:28 PM
Really then, one becomes the ground or reference point for the other.

Yes. When measuring the voltage between the two ends of a battery. If the ground clip is connected to the negative end of a battery, then you will measure a positive voltage at the probe. If the ground clip is connected to the positive end of the battery, then you will measure a negative voltage at the probe tip. The scope, or voltmeter, displays the probe voltage relative to the ground clip voltage.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 09, 2009, 05:22:43 PM

@xee2

Thank you,

Quote from: TheNOP on April 09, 2009, 03:21:13 PM

to one of the secondary lead of the coils you want to measure and the other probe to the other lead.

so i guess what is buggling you is if your measurements are meaningfull or not, is that it ?

Thank you theNOP,
Sorry I missed your reply earlier.

Yes, I am not sure my measurements are meaningful.

On the one hand ,

Yesterday while testing the MK1,

I filled a cap with 110 volts after running those volts around a bridge rectifier.
The dmm saw 39 volts from the same set up.

When I hooked the 2 wires of the secondary to the probe and clip of the scope,
The scope only saw 24 volts with the spikes going one way and 25 volts with the spikes going the other way.

On the other hand,

Using the same arrangements but testing the MK2 a few days ago
The dmm reported seeing 38.9 vdc
The cap hardly collected anything I cannot find my notes of it. I probably didn't write it down and kept fiddling to fix or figure what was wrong. I think it was something like 4.8 or 6vdc

This time the scope said the combined sides of the MK2 had a peak to peak voltage of 108 vAC. But this is when I tried to get the led string to turn on but it wouldn't.

So, I am getting too low or too high results and I am using the probes on each wire of the secondary so this is the curve.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 09, 2009, 06:07:41 PM

@ Wilby:

Now that is an excellent idea! Do you think the bird would move ok with the slight added weight of an electrical contact? This I have to try. Great thinking. Thank you.

@Gyula:

Thank you for that scope info and the links. I will watch the vids and read all of the information. I appreciate your posting it.

@ Jesus:

Thanks for your compliment on my latest video. Thank you for posting the drawings of the MK toroids, I am sure this will help folks, including me.

Jeanna:

About the sheep....I don't know what to say.... ha ha. What will they think of next?

@ TheNop:

I see what you are saying but I am not totally convinced this is the case. At first glance it would appear to be. But, think about this, we know the led is off and on so fast we can't see it but it is this off time that I believe contributes a lot to the longevity of our lighting from a small power source. (1.5 AA) OK, so to pulse the battery say once every30-60 seconds for 1 second I believe would add to the efficiency of the circuit by being "off" as much as it is "on" at those intervals. Now, I believe you are correct about the supercaps pulling the "juice" they need to tun the leds for the selected time interval, we can't get around that. My line of thinking is that by hitting the supercaps for only 1 second will allow less juice to be pulled from the battery over time as there would be if connected 100% of the time. In other words, what I am trying to say is maybe this would increase efficiency a bit over a given time period, it would not, of course, be OU or even U. Possibly it would be a step closer to U. I guess the question is this: Do the supercaps continue to pull anything from the battery once they are fully charged up? If they don't then my idea is full of crap as this would make the battery "think" it was off until the caps needed more power. If there is a continued drain once the caps are full, then I think this idea may have some merit. Once again, I freely admit....I don't know. It should be pretty easy to test once I get the pulsing mechanism worked out possibly with Wilby's bird. Thanks. PS You might be correct about the battery chemical reaction downtime effect.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 09, 2009, 06:43:09 PM

@Bill,
Don't you want to be filling the cap from the secondary?

Since we show over and over that the amps draw from the battery is no more and frequently less with the addition of the secondary, you would be filling the cap with no extra loss from the battery.

I don't propose to know how to set up the design to do this, [perhaps another jt type switching circuit with a really high value resistor] but it seems the obvious thing to me when as long as the battery circuit is going, the secondary will fill the cap. Once the cap has filled the first time, it will take over and only go off when it is completely exhausted from getting secondary juice from its own push in place of the battery.

Thinking in terms of time, if the fill time of the cap is 1/8 the emptying time then you will have a loong time before the thing cycles itself off and needs to turn on the battery again. And that would be on for another 1/8 the time the cap could provide the energy for the secondary to refill the cap.

I think your battery would last 8 times as long as with a jtc. since it would be off for so much of the time.

jeanna

PS corse, it did seem that the cap was running things for 20 times as long as the battery. I forget if you timed it?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 09, 2009, 07:20:34 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on April 09, 2009, 06:07:41 PM
I guess the question is this: Do the supercaps continue to pull anything from the battery once they are fully charged up?

if no other things are connected the answare is no.
once a cap is charged currents will stop flowing.
this is true for DC.

in our case, a current will be draw from the cap and cap will be filled at same time by the battery.

one more thing that might encourage you is that the frequency is changing with the voltage.
a cap voltage is dropping faster then a battery.
that is about the same as setting the jt for lower frequency.
but we know that setting the jt resistance for lower frequency will cause problems with transistor triggering at a higher battery voltage.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 09, 2009, 08:35:00 PM

@MK1,

I am having a really hard time with this MK1 I am making from a blue toroid.

You mentioned you were having a hard time with a blue toroid when making your MK3 yesterday.

Was it by any chance a blue toroid from electronic goldmine? part G16460 by any chance?

The light goes on then slowly dies out like something is taking its juice. I have to touch it to get it back on.

The circuit works fine with every other toroid. I just popped a few in to check if something just broke in the circuit, but the other toroids are fine all connections are fine etc.

I wound 30 pick ups 15 up then 15 down on each side. Then I thought that was too tight and took off a few. It seems to be down to 13 up and 13 down. Is that the right thing to do? Is that what you are doing when you are tuning this.

I was quite alarmed to see no light at all, then just a flaky flickery light after I removed a couple of secondaries. I even re-wound the bifilar just to make sure. But the circuit is on drawing 30 mA without the light, but the light is only a temporary glimmer.

The sheep would not look good with this one! ;)

Help? I mean is this the same blue one? Is taking off turns the way you do it?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 09, 2009, 09:24:23 PM

@all

Here is the way I think the @mk1 toroids are wound or winded. There are two.

@mk1
Which one of those two ways is the correct one?

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 09, 2009, 09:53:39 PM

@nievesoliveras

7654321
|
|
1234567

just like the jt coils

the reason the digits are reversed is that the coil is on the other side of the toroid.
kinda a mirror effect.
take a toroid, put a coil on it, then turn it 180 degrees, what do you see ?
what was on the right side is now on the left side.

all coils start to the left
turns are added going right of the start points
then back to start points over itself.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 09, 2009, 09:57:59 PM

@Jesus,

The MK1 has 2 windings on each side of the split bifilar winding. That is 4 wires all together.

1 piece of the bifilar on one side and opposite that the other.

Now, each pickup coil goes first up, then it returns down. So the start and finish of the pickup wire is in the same place.

This is what makes the MK series different from all other ways we have/ I have tried.

Go up then down.
Starting with a new wire and on the other side, go up then down.

I have to do something for a few minutes, but I will download your pic and draw over it. OK?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 09, 2009, 10:09:24 PM

@jeanna

My blue Toroid is not from goldmine, but its useless i got four of them .

@jesus

Both should work , the second one is like 2 coils in one i would connect the battery positive lead to the middle of the toroid to make the 2 coils , but those coil are only on the jt side , and the toroid used will dictate the number of turns needed on the jt side.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 09, 2009, 10:26:59 PM

@Mark
Thats a good explination you have done back a bit on explaining the way to tune the JT, however I am still confused.

Is there any chance you could make a video and post it on youtube giving a blow by blow account on tuning it, perhaps is several small steps, mabe make a series of them instead of one big one. I would find this much easier to follow.

I am a visual person, and this would help me no end, plus the more ways to explain it would be better for everyone.

Nice work with the labeling, now I am drawing a long bow, but if the MK1 is seen from the "plan" view, could you also add the points of the compas to identify the placement of each coil.

eg North coil , South coil, East coil, West coil,
North and South coils are JT coils
West and East coils are secondaries output coils.

Just a thought.

jim

@Jesus,
Thanks for your remarks on my circuit, I plan to improve it using a switching 10 channel IC and mabe even cascade several to make more output.
We have to see how this prototype goes first.

jim

@ Jeanna,
I found my scope explination 4 beginners, it relates only to the JT, and have sent it to you.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 09, 2009, 10:27:29 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on April 09, 2009, 09:53:39 PM
@nievesoliveras

7654321
|
|
1234567

just like the jt coils

the reason the digits are reversed is that the coil is on the other side of the toroid.
kinda a mirror effect.
take a toroid, put a coil on it, then turn it 180 degrees, what do you see ?
what was on the right side is now on the left side.

all coils start to the left
turns are added going right of the start points
then back to start points over itself.

Check this out.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 09, 2009, 10:33:50 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 09, 2009, 09:57:59 PM
@Jesus,

The MK1 has 2 windings on each side of the split bifilar winding. That is 4 wires all together.

1 piece of the bifilar on one side and opposite that the other.

Now, each pickup coil goes first up, then it returns down. So the start and finish of the pickup wire is in the same place.

This is what makes the MK series different from all other ways we have/ I have tried.

Go up then down.
Starting with a new wire and on the other side, go up then down.

I have to do something for a few minutes, but I will download your pic and draw over it. OK?

jeanna

Check the explanation on the new graphic composition and see if that is what you say.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 09, 2009, 10:36:52 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on April 09, 2009, 10:09:24 PM
@jeanna

My blue Toroid is not from goldmine, but its useless i got four of them .

@jesus

Both should work , the second one is like 2 coils in one i would connect the battery positive lead to the middle of the toroid to make the 2 coils , but those coil are only on the jt side , and the toroid used will dictate the number of turns needed on the jt side.

Check the explanation of the winding on the graphic composition just poste and see if that is correct of the pickup coil. Then I need to clarify the other two coils winding direction.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 09, 2009, 10:39:31 PM

Quote from: electricme on April 09, 2009, 10:26:59 PM

...could you also add the points of the compas to identify the placement of each coil.

eg North coil , South coil, East coil, West coil,
North and South coils are JT coils
West and East coils are secondaries output coils.

Just a thought.

jim

@Jesus,
Thanks for your remarks on my circuit, I plan to improve it using a switching 10 channel IC and mabe even cascade several to make more output.
We have to see how this prototype goes first.

jim
...

Thanks for asking @mk1 to add the compass points and sharing your knowledge with us.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 09, 2009, 10:50:37 PM

OK I made a start.

I connected the primary [ end of one and beginning of the other.]

The numbers 1234567 do not apply to the primary so I just drew the connecting lines.

In dark red, I drew the first side only of the pick up; It is coil J and it has wires #1,#4. (I am planning for the MK2 so I am going to keep these letters and numbers the same as they will be in the MK2 if I do it right! ;) )

Let's see how this goes.

jeanna.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 09, 2009, 11:04:02 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 09, 2009, 10:50:37 PM
OK I made a start.

I connected the primary [ end of one and beginning of the other.]

The numbers 1234567 do not apply to the primary so I just drew the connecting lines.

In dark red, I drew the first side only of the pick up; It is coil J and it has wires #1,#4. (I am planning for the MK2 so I am going to keep these letters and numbers the same as they will be in the MK2 if I do it right! ;) )

Let's see how this goes.

jeanna.

Thank you Lady Jeanna !

That is going up winding counterclockwise and winding down counterclockwise.
Is the other side going up winding clockwise and coming down winding clockwise too?

if it is so, then only thing we need to be sure of is the directions of winding of the two primary coils and start replicating !

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 09, 2009, 11:19:05 PM

There is a drinking bird, and a drinking bird...

one of them is a funny thing that operates on evaporation, and another is an electrical circuit which pops at a given interval.

I would post a diagram, but my desk is a total disaster...spring cleaning is imminent.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 09, 2009, 11:25:32 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on April 09, 2009, 11:04:02 PM
Thank you Lady Jeanna !

That is going up winding counterclockwise and winding down counterclockwise.
Is the other side going up winding clockwise and coming down winding clockwise too?

if it is so, then only thing we need to be sure of is the directions of winding of the two primary coils and start replicating !

Jesus

OK Jesus,

Yes, It is woundjust the same as the MK2 before it is cut. The wires are #8, I am pretty sure. And it is coil number K
I took it back and made a change.

I guess you want to call the wires cw and ccw because we can know what we are talking about?

If you start to wind it, you see that when a cw wind turns back and goes down, it changes to ccw. If you keep the turning direction the same but reverse the progression of the winds, the cw turns to ccw. It is the reason it only matters for us to be able to talk about them.

I keep MK's drawing close so I get it right.
The split primary wires want to loosen up a lot so it is good to tape them down a little.

looks good to me.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 09, 2009, 11:40:39 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 09, 2009, 11:25:32 PM
OK Jesus,

Yes, It is woundjust the same as the MK2 before it is cut. The wires are #8, I am pretty sure. And it is coil number K
I took it back and made a change.

I guess you want to call the wires cw and ccw because we can know what we are talking about?

If you start to wind it, you see that when a cw wind turns back and goes down, it changes to ccw. If you keep the turning direction the same but reverse the progression of the winds, the cw turns to ccw. It is the reason it only matters for us to be able to talk about them.

I keep MK's drawing close so I get it right.
The split primary wires want to loosen up a lot so it is good to tape them down a little.

looks good to me.

jeanna

Thank you @Lady Jeanna !

I will continue tomorrow drawing the whole thing for review by you and the other members.
The next thing is to get the accurate connections to be made among the coils.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 10, 2009, 12:02:06 AM

@all

I hope this will help !

First thing tuning, on step one the green coil is put on tight leaving room so that two other coil (for the jt)can be added 180 degrees
apart, the green coil needs to be connected to a diode bridge to get voltage readings .

On step 2 , you start adding jt coils one at a time and check voltmeter every time you put more turns , that way you see the difference it makes continue adding turns until the voltage on the voltmeter start going lower, this will mean you have reached the point where you start messing up with the turn ratio , meaning you add more you get lower voltage.

On more step i do is every time i change the jt numbers of turn i also tune the base resistor , usually a pot of 1k is used, you try to get the highest voltage on the voltmeter . i also keep the voltage data and the resistance at the base by checking the resistance used by the pot in the circuit.

At this point you will know that you have the right number of turns on the jt coil, and the green coil number of turns fitting in the toroid,.

At that point based on results decide to use smaller gauge the get more turns and higher voltage .

You will also have a good idea on the toroid working range.

To make a good design , you need to learn about the toroid first at this point you should have a good idea about doing so.

Step 3 , Start putting pickup coil on the toroid, you need to put the coil on both sides going one way and leave wire to come back over the coil the other way on step 4.Making a cross windings.

If you want more pickup coil , you need to put them all at the same time , so make sure to remember the green coil for the room available .

Lets say 20 turns fit , then on a mk1 you should have about 20 up then 16 down , mk2 having 2 pickup coils on each side numbers would be 10 up 6 down , you get the idea.

When you need more then 3 pickup coil , twist all those wire into a single one then do it all at once.

Now why the cross windings , you will then have the coil pushing and pulling , you can test it with a led that will now light both ways , it also helpful in charging caps.

I hope did not forget to much, i would really make a video but , i really don't have any money to buy a camera , and none of my friends have one, but honestly most of my time and energy is on putting food in my stomach.

Mark

How to test dead spots use a single turn pickup coil , then connect it to a bridge and voltmeter and move it around the empty space left on the toroid , if you find a spot where there is no voltage that is a dead spot.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 10, 2009, 12:08:30 AM

@ Jadaro007:

I didn't know there were 2 devices called drinking birds. I assumed....and we all know what happens then, that Wilby meant the evaporation bird, which is what I ordered. I got a smaller one that dips about every 30 seconds or so. I think this will be ideal to test my theory, or my idea anyway. I am thankful that Wilby thought of this. Of course, I hope he didn't mean the other one you referenced.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 10, 2009, 12:16:43 AM

@ TheNOP

Quote from: TheNOP on April 09, 2009, 03:21:13 PM

take a 10 volts 10uF cap, fill it to 3 volts and connect a 3 volts led to it.
why did the led blowed up ? you only had 3 volts 10 microamps in that cap.
do we really need lots of charges ?

for me, the talk about the "power gain" is about efficientcy gain.
if it is more efficient you have more power out that you would normally had by other ways.
the "test it and see it by yourself" is a must do thing.
it does not automaticaly imply a ou claim.

one can beleive what he want to beleive, but when facing the test results, one can no longer make assomptions of what was actually meant.

@electricme
i can't make out if you talk about discharging the caps at same time or sequencialy.

i think a cascade discharge would be more appropriate.
i was wondering how to do that.
using leds chaser..., nice idea.
might work
thanks

Hello and thankyou for the question.
As you mentioned in your above statement, use a 10uf 10volt cap etc etc, and the result was as you posted.
The inrush current fried the LED, you didn't state if the LED had a series resistor connected to it to protect it, as the LED is a current handling device, but we here have made it work and very successfully wiht high voltages toooooo.

So to answer you question directed to myself, here goes.

What I want to do is have a lot of identical capacitors, electrolytics, then use a Dot/Bar driver IC to discharge all the caps in one instant of time, which will produce the energy that is required to drive any electrical motor, device or even to recharge a battery.

A 10v cap won't recharge a 12v battery, but substitute a 16v cap willl do nicely.

I want to use a JT, powered by the 1.2v Battery, as this is a NiCad, it can give me the amps to do it, the AA size carbon battery is incapable of supplying these amps. Why use a JT and not a 555 timer?
Well I want to, and the JT output is used to pulse the caps to charge them.

The switching arrangement to control the time it takes for each cap to refill is done by resistors and capacitor tank circuit, the resistors being a mixture of fixed values and pots for fine tuning the timer between charge time and switching to the next cap to be filled, the discharge and the reset function on the IC.

The steps to do this is to have an arrangement of MOSFETS, capacitors and a DOT/Bar driver IC configured in such a way where the timing of the IC itself is controlled, which controlls how much time the pin out of the IC will supply energy to each capacitor in turn.

So the output pins of the IC go from 1 to 10, but I only use 8 outputs to be used to go to each independant cap circuit.

Then I take the 9th output from the IC which usuallys turns on a LED, is redirected to switch on ALL the MOSFETS together (in Parallel) will then dump all the energy from the charged up caps into whatever load one wishes to apply to the circuit.

Now there is one last LED driver, the 10 one which usually drives a LED also, but instead of driving a LED, this part of the circuit is taken back to the "reset" pin of the IC, so the whole process occurs over and over and over again and again.

Just as we all saw in the TinyWeeny Video I posted a couple of Posts back, lets take a quick lok at this now.
The LEDs all are lit in turn by the IC, which directs each LED to be litup in turn, so the string of LEDs appears to light up as the light goes round and round and round.
This circuit has been worknig since switch on over a month ago woithout fail.
I wont be using this identical circuit, rather I will design my own as the one shown in the tiny video is only there to show everyone the principle, which does work as you can see. Go back and take a look.

No doubt there will be refinements along the way, how long before a 1.2v NiCad cell will work, who knows, actually at this point in time I only need to get the circuit working, after having reached that gole, then fine tuning occurs, perhaps between every 10th cycle a burst of discharge energy could be sent back into the NiCad battery, a bit like stooring up energy in a flywheel and using that energy to recharge the circuit.

I am not making any claim to OU, I need proof of a working model over a period of months, even a year or two to do that.
But that is a long way away from this kid right now.

I will begin the circuit shortly, it will be a biggie, but got a little googling to get some more info.

I hoped this explained it for you.
jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 10, 2009, 12:48:57 AM

@Jeanna,
No LEDs on problem

Quote from: jeanna on April 09, 2009, 05:22:43 PM
This time the scope said the combined sides of the MK2 had a peak to peak voltage of 108 vAC. But this is when I tried to get the led string to turn on but it wouldn't.
I am using the probes on each wire of the secondary so this is the curve.

This might be a "loading" of the circuit while your scope probe is in the circuit.

If the X times switch is in the X1 position, this will definatly load the circuit, so switch the probe to X10 and try again.

If you still get a bad result, put a 10meghome resistor between the probe tip and the circuit.

If this dosent help then something else is not quite right.

Hope this helps

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 10, 2009, 01:16:57 AM

Quote from: electricme on April 10, 2009, 12:16:43 AM
I hoped this explained it for you.

yes it did.

but i am a bit sad.
you don't see it like me.
a mk8 would fill those caps in no time.
no needs to complicate the charging process at least this is the way i think.

anyway, each one is own way.
don't blow up what you are trying to make work. ;D
depending on the size of caps you want to use, big resistors at the output of your caps should help you.

good luck

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 10, 2009, 01:19:41 AM

Quote from: electricme on April 10, 2009, 12:48:57 AM
No LEDs on problem

You should ask the sheep if it is a problem! ;) ;D

QuoteThis might be a "loading" of the circuit while your scope probe is in the circuit.

How long does that take? It goes on for many minutes. ..

Quoteput a 10meghome resistor between the probe tip and the circuit.

you mean between the probe tip and the clip. I will try that tomorrow.

I do think something odd happens with coils that are wound first up then down.
It is what Nathan Stubblefield did too.
And this MKx design is the same kind of caduceus winding with a secondary.

I do not remember JLN labs testing their caduceus coils with secondary coils. I should have a look.

Thanks for these suggestions.

BTW I like your chasing leds. You say they have been running on one AA for 10 weeks?

could you start with an earth battery?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 10, 2009, 01:44:57 AM

@Jeanna
I think the barr barr's didn't mind the LED coat. ;D

Quote from: jeanna on April 10, 2009, 01:19:41 AM
BTW I like your chasing leds. You say they have been running on one AA for 10 weeks?

could you start with an earth battery?

No I ddin't say the LEDs were running on 1 AA battery, for 10 weeks, no this was a kitt I bought from Jaycar in Toowoomba, about 100K's away from me, it was designed for 12v DC by someone else.It is hooked up to a 12v Car battery.

I am only displaying this to show people the "principle" (which works) I want to use with my own circuit. ;)

Hmm earth battery powered unit, mabe one day, not yet though.

@all,
Could someone post a photo of one of these "blue" torids that don't seem to want to work.

@TheNOP,
Don't worry, dont cry. dont be sad :( my friend about me not using your idea (MK8), I want to get my idea working first, then I will try your idea too. ;)

HAPPY EASTER ALL for 2009

hooroo

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 10, 2009, 01:50:14 AM

Ah, the earth battery comes up again. Gadget already ran his JT from the EB and soon, I will be attempting the same. Jeanna, maybe all that work and research we did a while back will pay off for us soon?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 10, 2009, 01:53:47 AM

@electicme

It would not take long to make a mk8 or 10 for that mater , am it is what you are looking for , Nop knows .
I also do , its simple and you have 2 green toroid , they are from comun mode choke like my green gem toroid.

This is the best toroid to my knowledge , aren't they 1 inch ?

you need 30 gauge wire 16 times 30 inch should do .

But i know you like to take your own way.

So no problem here, more wire is simple and effective .I doesn't mean you can't do the same with multiple pickups on multiple toroid , its just more cap charged, but at a lesser cost .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 10, 2009, 02:35:55 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on April 10, 2009, 01:53:47 AM
@electicme
I also do , its simple and you have 2 green toroid , they are from comun mode choke like my green gem toroid.
This is the best toroid to my knowledge , aren't they 1 inch ?
Mark

Hi Mark, are these the torids you are referring to?

Thanks for the advice, I do need it from time to time, I keep forgetting things, gulp,
could you point me to the best MK8 and MK10 link so I can take a looksee please.

jim

@all,
I need a visual perspective on wire gages.
could someone post a photo of some wire with a word and arrow pointing to the wire, saying This Is a 30 gauge wire, etc etc

Here is a little chapp I found some time ago, cute isn't he ROFL ha ha

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 10, 2009, 02:41:03 AM

Sorry all wrong photo.
Try this one. ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 10, 2009, 03:07:41 AM

@ Jim:

Nice video man! I just now watched it. I thought it was just a few pages back...more like 10, ha ha. For some reason, that reminded me of a mouse chasing its tail. (Just kidding)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 10, 2009, 04:55:23 AM

@Bill,
Thank you kind sir, I had a lot of fun building it up, I have a few other electronic kitts to build but they have to wait for another day.

I have to get my latest circuit done first.

I think I will take an early mark tonight, I'm yawning like it's going out of fashion.

Hooroo Bill

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on April 10, 2009, 09:02:06 AM

@Mark/MK:

Whatever dude.
You may be very good at winding coils, but you are also very good at reading things that I don't write,
and then blaming me for it.
Yes I have my questions concerning for example your high output,
but I have not said anywhere that you are wrong in your measurements, have I?
No, I have not.
I have said that I do not believe you are getting any power gain, but since you never clearly
claimed any power gain but that only appeared to be so because of the unclear formulation,
that was not calling you wrong either, was it?
So actually, I never said you were wrong about anything.
What I have said many times, and I will say it again, is that I have my questions, I am a little
confused about the various posts by various people that seem to claim power gain,
and that I do not see that happening at all in any of my experiments nor in the theoretical model,
and that what I do see happening does appear to accord with the model.
And I have asked for clarification from anyone who feels like it.

How you manage to twist that into me accusing you of being wrong, I don't know.

But please stop your insinuations and attempts to insult me, they only serve to make you look bad.

If you wish to show off some of your great discoveries, perhaps you could simply describe them?

Regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on April 10, 2009, 09:27:14 AM

@pirate, yes i meant the evaporation bird, glad you like the idea. as far as the issue with the electrical contact, i have great faith that a clever man like yourself shall have no problems overcoming any such issues.

@koen, mk has tried several times, quite civilly i might add, to assist you and anyone else. perhaps you should learn his native language so as to remove the language barrier that YOU seem to have trouble overcoming. once again to reiterate, the onus is not on mk, the onus is on you. you are the one who wants to replicate it, not mk.
let me put it another way, how many possible ways are there to wind the simplest mk version? have you exhausted all those possibilities with builds? i suspect the answer here is no... you are the one with questions, perhaps you should first do due diligence in answering them for yourself? or you could take some pictures of your builds, good closeups, post them and see if anyone can help you figure out where you went wrong.

your theoretical 'model' has numerous issues, first and foremost it is based upon assumptions. the existence of electrons in the wave functions of the schroedinger equation need not be assumed unless you choose. the equation does not demand this. you may assume that discrete material electrons exist, or do not exist. it's up to you. the math of quantum mechanics is neutral and takes no position. it is not possible to understand energy transfer unless you abandon the notion of a discrete particle and accept the fact: the electron is a quantum wave structure.
do you have some new equation for singularity avoidance where infinity isn't subtracted from infinity? i would love to see it ;)
seriously, the mechanism of energy transfer using maxwell's equations has insurmountable problems. i tried to explain this to you in my last post...

no offense, but you do tend to 'parrot'. my first encounter with you here on overunity was you 'parroting' some hearsay about bedini sg's trashing batteries and it took several pages for me to get you to finally admit that you had never built one and had no plans to, if i recall.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on April 10, 2009, 10:16:30 AM

@Wilby: that Bedini battery stuff was from Bedini and Bearden themselves,
if you call that "hearsay", then everything Bedini said about his motors is "hearsay".
Whether or not I built an SG does not change that, so that is irrelevant to the point.

But hey, apparently it is difficult to stick to the issue, and even more difficult to
simply state what grand discoveries have been divulged that I have apparently missed.

Fine.

I won't bother you with all those difficult questions anymore.
Have fun tinkering endlessly. :)
Bye.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on April 10, 2009, 10:31:18 AM

@all

Has anybody used a carbon rod or other shape to make a JT? If so what were your results?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on April 10, 2009, 10:56:25 AM

Quote from: Koen1 on April 10, 2009, 10:16:30 AM
@Wilby: that Bedini battery stuff was from Bedini and Bearden themselves,
if you call that "hearsay", then everything Bedini said about his motors is "hearsay".
Whether or not I built an SG does not change that, so that is irrelevant to the point.

But hey, apparently it is difficult to stick to the issue, and even more difficult to
simply state what grand discoveries have been divulged that I have apparently missed.

Fine.

I won't bother you with all those difficult questions anymore.
Have fun tinkering endlessly. :)
Bye.

Quote from: Koen1 on March 31, 2008, 04:16:14 AM
I merely point out that I have heard tons of stories about and from people
building Bedini motors and other battery chargers who experience the
dead battery phenomenon. It is well known and even Bedini and Bearden
mention it.

LMFAO... koen we covered the lesson on the definition of hearsay a long time ago, i guess you didn't get it then. http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=4362.msg86796#msg86796
one more time then, if you have built a replication then what you say about your experience with it is first hand. if you haven't built a replication anything you say about it is hearsay. ie: if bedini tells you something about one of his experiences with an sg that he built, that IS NOT hearsay. if you repeat what bedini told you to someone else, that IS hearsay. i don't know how it can be explained any clearer than that, nor do i understand why you take so much offense to that fact...
bedini and bearden talked about it occurring under VERY SPECIFIC conditions... ie: very little or no amperage going to the batteries. bearden makes a special point of emphasizing that (that a discrete amount of amperage is required) in EFTV2...

what no pictures of your builds? apparently that must be too difficult? ;)
what was the issue again? your failure to make as good of a jt mod as mk?
or was the issue my issue with your 'theoretical model'? if so, you're gonna cry and run off because someone has disagreed with your 'theoretical model'? ::)
the difficult question is now in your hands. how do you propose to validate your assumed discrete electron? do you have a solution for singularity avoidance that does not involve subtracting infinity from infinity? if you have such a solution, then i have no problems with your 'model'. until then, well, it pretty much sucks...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: mikem_2au on April 10, 2009, 10:57:34 AM

hey,

I thought i would start with a mk1 before attempting the mk2, there i sat trying to figure
out how to connect the two pick-up coils in series, i thought back to when
i had both pick-ups wound up but not down then imagined slideing the two
pick-ups around the toroid and noticed that they are both wound around the
toroid in the same direction, the second pick-up is actually wound backwards.
So the end on the second pick-up wich stayed stationary while i wound the other
end up the toroid was actually the END and not the Start as i thought.

So i connected the two pickups in series, the END of the first pick-up and the START
of the second pick-up (the start being the end i wound up and down)

a single pick-up gave me 134v
pick-ups in series gave me 141v

then 1 pick-up to the rectifier.. one end of the second pick-up to the positive
side of the rectifier, the other end used as the new positive and the negative being
the negative side of the rectifier .. i got 247v
this fills a cap fairly fast to 247v then slowly climb's to 270v

I think i'm going to try the mk2 tomorrow..

hope you all can understand the way i have explained what i have done,

getting a bit late here, better get myself some sleep
mike..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on April 10, 2009, 11:21:55 AM

Quote from: mikem_2au on April 10, 2009, 10:57:34 AM
hey,

I thought i would start with a mk1 before attempting the mk2, there i sat trying to figure
out how to connect the two pick-up coils in series, i thought back to when
i had both pick-ups wound up but not down then imagined slideing the two
pick-ups around the toroid and noticed that they are both wound around the
toroid in the same direction, the second pick-up is actually wound backwards.
So the end on the second pick-up wich stayed stationary while i wound the other
end up the toroid was actually the END and not the Start as i thought.

So i connected the two pickups in series, the END of the first pick-up and the START
of the second pick-up (the start being the end i wound up and down)

a single pick-up gave me 134v
pick-ups in series gave me 141v

then 1 pick-up to the rectifier.. one end of the second pick-up to the positive
side of the rectifier, the other end used as the new positive and the negative being
the negative side of the rectifier .. i got 247v
this fills a cap fairly fast to 247v then slowly climb's to 270v

I think i'm going to try the mk2 tomorrow..

hope you all can understand the way i have explained what i have done,

getting a bit late here, better get myself some sleep
mike..

bravo mike! nice results thanks for posting them, perfect timing too i might add ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Koen1 on April 10, 2009, 12:30:57 PM

@Wilby: yes, I know you enjoy insulting and harassing people.
It is great that you have found such a nice hobby.
It would be even nicer if you could do it in silence.

It is easy to be an ass, you show so well how easy it is.
I bet everyone respects you for that.
Good luck with your people skills there.
Keep it up and you may even get a Golden Ass award.
;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on April 10, 2009, 12:36:01 PM

Quote from: Koen1 on April 10, 2009, 12:30:57 PM
@Wilby: yes, I know you enjoy insulting and harassing people.
It is great that you have found such a nice hobby.
It would be even nicer if you could do it in silence.

It is easy to be an ass, you show so well how easy it is.
I bet everyone respects you for that.
Good luck with your people skills there.
Keep it up and you may even get a Golden Ass award.
;D

i only harass the harassers...
wow you are ending this conversation the same way you ended the one about bedini's work (which you have never replicated but know so much about), with unfounded accusations and name calling. why am i not suprised? well, that's what happens when a person has no ground to base their arguments on, they resort to all sorts of strange behaviors.
you asked for comments, you got them. don't cry about it and call people names, get on that math and solve that singularity avoidance issue, be the hero of classical EE theory ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 10, 2009, 12:36:03 PM

Quote from: Koen1 on April 10, 2009, 09:02:06 AM
@Mark/MK:

Whatever dude.
You may be very good at winding coils, but you are also very good at reading things that I don't write,
and then blaming me for it.
Yes I have my questions concerning for example your high output,
but I have not said anywhere that you are wrong in your measurements, have I?
No, I have not.
I have said that I do not believe you are getting any power gain, but since you never clearly
claimed any power gain but that only appeared to be so because of the unclear formulation,
that was not calling you wrong either, was it?
So actually, I never said you were wrong about anything.
What I have said many times, and I will say it again, is that I have my questions, I am a little
confused about the various posts by various people that seem to claim power gain,
and that I do not see that happening at all in any of my experiments nor in the theoretical model,
and that what I do see happening does appear to accord with the model.
And I have asked for clarification from anyone who feels like it.

How you manage to twist that into me accusing you of being wrong, I don't know.

But please stop your insinuations and attempts to insult me, they only serve to make you look bad.

If you wish to show off some of your great discoveries, perhaps you could simply describe them?

Regards,
Koen

I am sorry but you did it again , no OU claims , but better toroid yes, but do build!
Btw have you and answered to any of my arguments?

Jesus , its not worth the argument , the guy is sleeping and is incapable personal views , its sad but not your fault .
I will stop reading his post since he has nothing new or constructive for us.He is a idea guy with no idea and no clue.
He seems to be a bright puppy , what a waist.

Mark

Edit i really don't care how i look , since i have goal that are beyond your comprehension and even beyond me self, but so far i still look better then you.

Now can you help us or not , get your feet wet , find a toroid then explain it to us dumb dumb , have fun , and believe me you will.

Life is not a dogma , we each need to get the answers for our self , edison did not have any education even less on electronic , but some of us did. But he is a god.

But then Tesla made him go nuts , why Edison ego could not let him learn from the master.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on April 10, 2009, 12:39:44 PM

or post those pictures of your builds koen, someone might be able to spot your error... man thats a difficult one though isn't it ;)
oh that's right, you gave up on those by your own admission. and you're still harassing people about it? even though you gave up on building one? wtf dude?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 10, 2009, 12:48:10 PM

@electricme

I remember you posted a picture of them 2 green toroid on one board , with mk looking coils on each side.

The last drawing and explanation on tuning , is for you and Jesus and anyone interested to replicate. even koen1.

I will also try to answer any question anyone has.

Mark

@mike

Nice work !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 10, 2009, 01:05:45 PM

Mike:

Nice work there! Congratulations man. I would like to ask if you can post some photos of your replication if you are able to. I am sure this might help some others with this concept. (Like me, ha ha) Welcome to our merry band of experimenters. You are off to a really great start!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 10, 2009, 01:29:56 PM

@all

Norton amp ? I just found this .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 10, 2009, 01:43:17 PM

Quote from: stprue on April 10, 2009, 10:31:18 AM
@all

Has anybody used a carbon rod or other shape to make a JT? If so what were your results?

Some have, good luck finding it though - people are fascinated with the toroid, it creates a sort of closed loop for the magnetic flux.

@all,

Yesterday, I saw off in the distance, a cloud, and rain was falling from that cloud, and the wind was blowing it far from it's base, and it was immediately evaporating into the next cloud.

And then, I thought about the Joule Thief.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 10, 2009, 01:54:25 PM

Lots happening today.
I have 3 pics for you, Jim
----
the bad blue. I don't know if this will help
#G16460
----
The filter I like so much. I made the MK1 and MK2 that both work well from this. The MK1 from this lit 30 leds in january.
This is how it comes 19 turns on each side. I take them off.
G16214
----
My favorite, the one allelectronics calls charcoal. It works really well, but is small. Pictured here is the minimum pack of 10 with the now famous one whose 20 turn secondary lit 29 leds in jan, and a single next to a AA battery. All wound this fits into a AAbattery slot.
@TOR-23

Incidently, the book that is underneath them in the pics is Patrick Flanagan's book Pyramid Power" with its MOST interesting and inspiring cover. ;)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 10, 2009, 02:17:24 PM

@Jeanna

The second picture looks good , they look like comun mode choke , there usually the right stuff some are better , but usually all good.

How big are they , i hope we could find 1 inch like those .They are high flux usually.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 10, 2009, 02:37:32 PM

Quote from: mikem_2au on April 10, 2009, 10:57:34 AM

So i connected the two pickups in series, the END of the first pick-up and the START
of the second pick-up (the start being the end i wound up and down)

yes, it is confusing. I think it is the best reason to cut them. Then just do as the man says.

Quotea single pick-up gave me 134v
pick-ups in series gave me 141v

Right. My experience also. It would seem that one got swallowed up by the other until you...

Quote. i got 247v
this fills a cap fairly fast to 247v then slowly climb's to 270v

I am beginning to think that the meters are missing the spikes but the caps are not.

Thank you for sharing your results. It confirms much of what I am getting too.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 10, 2009, 03:12:55 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on April 10, 2009, 02:17:24 PM

The second picture looks good , they look like comun mode choke , there usually the right stuff some are better , but usually all good.

Yes, I made the MK1 and hybrid using this in january. I liked it (and the charcoal from allelectronics) so well I bought more (of both)

QuoteHow big are they , i hope we could find 1 inch like those .They are high flux usually.

Just over 3/4 inch OD and just under 1/2 inch ID (over 2 cm OD and just over 1 cm ID) The cement color is a paint of sorts. It peeled off with the black glue when I pulled off the wires, once.

Most of the ones I have tried from the goldmine are here:
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/products.asp?dept=1050 (http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/products.asp?dept=1050)

But, remember, I have NOT been able to achieve the results you are getting with your choke. I get under 40volts from each side of my MK1 and this is the one that seems to be able to deliver 110 volts to a cap when fully rectified.

The filter is pictured 4th down on the page. You can also see the bad blue, and the high permeability disappointment, scrolling down is the 5 pack of medium.

These mediums are not bad. A lot of us have these and this fact makes it useful for comparisons. If one of us hits a good number of turns etc, the rest of us can try it out.

Goldmine's minimum is $10.00 and the shipping is $7.00 so you might as well get some extras to try out.

@Bill,
I am remembering that the earth battery arrangement that lit a red led, employed a supercap IN PARALLEL arrangement with the led. I think this is where your answer will come for filling and discharging simultaneously.
I really don't know if a change in cap or adding a resistor also would enable you to get your goal, but something tells me you were on it a long while ago.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 10, 2009, 03:13:05 PM

@electicme

Check this out! I know you will like it ! they trying to find justification.

http://www.disclose.tv/frameset.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailymail.co.uk%2Fsciencetech%2Farticle-1168637%2FObama-pollution-particles-stratosphere-deflect-suns-heat-desperate-bid-tackle-global-warming.html

http://www.disclose.tv/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3185&view=unread#unread

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 10, 2009, 03:24:47 PM

@jeanna

Yes they are good but not that good , 40 volts dc is not bad for those, you could get more with smaller gauge more turns, I just got some toroid that are about the same got 45 volts on a 24 turn pickup coil , made from 26 gauge mag wire , its not getting the good numbers the green one gets , probably bigger flux , but i did not have time to tune the charcoal one yet so i won't comment yet , but testing the jt turns to make sure to get the best output, then going to a smaller mag wire
will get you closer. Also i did mention about the transistor 2n2222 work even when the collector and emitter are reversed
this you need to test to see , one side is better , the 2n2222 is also called a negistor .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 10, 2009, 03:36:34 PM

Mark:

I am glad to hear that as I have a bunch of the 2N222's.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on April 10, 2009, 03:42:44 PM

allelectronics also has a toroid that's over 3 inches across! Jeanna did you make a JT out of carbon?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on April 10, 2009, 03:59:40 PM

Quote from: stprue on April 10, 2009, 03:42:44 PM
allelectronics also has a toroid that's over 3 inches across! Jeanna did you make a JT out of carbon?

i made one with carbon but i didn't use the carbon in the way you are referring to. it was more of a parlor trick, a little spoof i tossed together to show some friends how easy it is to make something look like something it is not. it was fun seeing their faces when i showed them a working led with apparently no batteries or power input. it was activated carbon by the way, the kind you find in fish tank filters, i'm not sure if that would work so well for a core. ironically that is part of what i convinced them the carbon was for, that it needed to be there. the 'all important', 'will not suck the vacuum without it' QHC (quantum/hydro/carbon) spark gap ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on April 10, 2009, 04:13:08 PM

Thank you for the reply, they are had to get around here so far...for me anyway. :P

I had an idea to use conductive nanocarbon with a JT but I wanted to see if anybody has tried to make a carbon rod JT and if the results workable. I was interested to see if carbon resonated in a similar way to ferrite.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on April 10, 2009, 04:18:02 PM

Quote from: stprue on April 10, 2009, 04:13:08 PM
Thank you for the reply, they are had to get around here so far...for me anyway. :P

I had an idea to use conductive nanocarbon with a JT but I wanted to see if anybody has tried to make a carbon rod JT and if the results workable. I was interested to see if carbon resonated in a similar way to ferrite.

i'll look in my aquarium junk box and see if i have some carbon from the old freshwater days. if i find some some i figure i'll crush it and stuff a section of drinking straw to made a 'rod'. don't know when i'll get to it, i'm trying to figure this anomaly i'm having with a certain li-ion battery that runs my fluoro tube twice as bright as the others, so someone please beat me to it.

can you scavenge a carbon rod from an old battery? messy but if they are hard to get where you are it might be the best route.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 10, 2009, 04:26:42 PM

@ Wilby:

Thank you for your comment and again for the drinking bird suggestion. I just received notification that it was shipped today. This will be fun. My friends that see this at my place will now know I am nuts, ha ha. If it works at all, I, of course, will make some videos. Thanks again.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on April 10, 2009, 04:29:50 PM

Good idea about the battery, I didn't think about that...thanks!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on April 10, 2009, 04:32:20 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on April 10, 2009, 04:26:42 PM
@ Wilby:

Thank you for your comment and again for the drinking bird suggestion. I just received notification that it was shipped today. This will be fun. My friends that see this at my place will now know I am nuts, ha ha. If it works at all, I, of course, will make some videos. Thanks again.

Bill

sweet! it just seemed like the 'freest' way to do a make/break connection to me, i can't wait to see it!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 10, 2009, 04:39:34 PM

@Mk1
i hope we are not in for an other ice age...

@All
i am still asking myself witch way i should go. :-\

mechanical rotary switch
using a motor to turn it.
the switch would have to be custom made.

i could probably use multiple brushes around a flywheel that have only one contact.
that contact would be connected to the shaft and a brush used to pickup the output.
a mk8 would require 16 separated brushes, connected to the 16 caps separately.

someone have other ideas on how to easily make such switch ?

or full solid state

555 timer

decade counter/driver
either a 4017B, 7490 or MC14017
http://www.nxp.com/acrobat/datasheets/74HC_HCT4017_3.pdf
http://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/MC14017B-D.PDF
need 2 of those for 16 caps

i can also use more of them as a frequency divider, up to divide by 10 for a single chip.
the 555 timer can then be use at a higher frequency for the jt

silicon controlled rectifier.
2n681 25amps/25volts
2n6835 25amps/100volts

the neat thing about scr is that they stay on as long as a minimum currents flow through them.
the problem with SS is: the SCR must be able to withstand the caps discharges currents.

i don't think i will have much problems at small scale if i choose my caps carefully.
but i do plan to try with 120 volts later and that mean really big currents spikes...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on April 10, 2009, 04:40:56 PM

At some point this weekend I will try to post up some pictures of my hazen1 coil set up. It is not perfect but I can get about 95 to 106 rectified dc volts and I can adjust and add stuff to this rig. Not bad for my 2nd JT...I have also recently made a 555 IC that I can adjust the wavelength and frequency that I plan on experimenting with. I will post all results.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on April 10, 2009, 04:47:11 PM

Oh I forgot to mention the 106 voltage only pops up when I ground it, witch is through my power supply so I'm not sure if it's accurate!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 10, 2009, 04:50:28 PM

@thenop

I was thinking about a small motor , and making the switch rotor , from copper pc board , i was planing on making a drawing on it with a sharpie and put it in the solution , the brushes i was thinking of looking for old drill or something like that .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 10, 2009, 05:12:57 PM

Quote from: stprue on April 10, 2009, 03:42:44 PM
allelectronics also has a toroid that's over 3 inches across! Jeanna did you make a JT out of carbon?

Hi stprue,
I pushed quote so I didn't forget to answer you. I am sorry I haven't remembered yet, and welcome to this very active thread!

I haven't tried the big one but it is on my list. I hate to shop and put off even things I want. Oh well, my patience improves this way ( ;) or something)

The tor 23 is the one. It is not identified as carbon, so I am not sure if you are asking about the toroid. I am about to report on 2 of these so heads up after I finish with replies.

Carbon. I used spent carbon from a brita filter in an earth battery set up and it worked well, Also it worked sort of ok with a carbon rod a welder gifted me.but that is another thread... we can meet over there for that.

I have tried to have some system. So, no carbon rod , just a charcoal toroid. Take a closer look at the cover of that book in those pics on last page. It is a very close up shot of the iron atom taken in the 60's by some special microscope. It has a familiar look, doesn't it?

@MK1
I have found that to be true with the 2n2222 also. I did this cuz I got the kind in a can and I wasn't sure which leg was which so I flipped it and both sides worked. cool. LEDs are working both ways with the 2N3904, so I wonder if it is also flip-able.

I think I may have missed some but oh well

@wilby, it is nice to see you again.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 10, 2009, 06:21:19 PM

OK everyone,
While you were all typing this morning, I was trying out something I have wanted to test for a while.

This is what I called a piggyback a few weeks ago. For non americans, it means one carried on the back of another.

I wondered if the hay-wagon could give a lot more free rides.

First I set up a bjt using the one from the pic this morning. That is the 'berry'
the berry has 11T,11T with 36T2^o
I tested its amps and stuff

Then I took the berry's 2^o wires and tried two different things with them
1- I put them through a full bridge then into the battery rail of another jtc
2- I put them straight into the battery rail of another jtc.

This battery rail is the input for a second jtc which is pretty closely matched.
I just named it 'widow' because it is black and red.
it has 5T, 8T, 40T 2^o

There are 2 breadboard circuits.
Both use 2N3904
around 800-950 ohm resistor at the base of the transistor.

(I know,I know, I can get more bigger results with lower resistance here. This is a study.)
The battery is starting to run down. It is at 1.31v.
===
here goes:

I used the berry for the first jt

The first jtc draws 26.2mA by itself.
When the secondary wires are passed through a full bridge it I can collect 22 -37 volts in a cap(wow)
Also from the secondary, the scope sees 8.22 v with 1 wave showing at 120 kHz.
We already know this berry lights lots of leds 5 in series or 29+ in parallel.

[I also checked out using a 3 volt battery, but more on that later.]

Then I put the widow into its own breadboard.
This by itself draws
33mA with a led
38mA with no led
Between the secondary wires, the scope reports
11.5volts with no led
6.9 volts with a led in the bjt place.

==

Now for the fun

I put the secondary wires from the berry through the bridge then jumpered them into the battery rail of the widow.

The bjt led of the widow actually went on although dimly,
The secondary wires from one jtc actually started up a whole second jt circuit!!!!!.]
I tried using a 104pF cap across the transistor base resistor and it did not help with the light or it was not noticeable.

MK suggested I try the piggy back without rectifying and so I stuck the secondary wires from the berry straight into the battery rail of the widow's circuit, without rectification.
This must reduce the effect by half since the rail is designed for dc from a battery.

The light went on dimly.
I used the 104pF cap in the base resistor place and the light steadied. It was still dim, but no longer flickery.

Now, I checked the widow's secondary wires 2 ways.

1- through the full bridge.and collected in a cap it filled the cap to 1.4 volts (not much but more than the starting battery.)

2- Without the bridge the scope reported 0.51 volts between the 2 secondary wires, (even without the led and 104pF cap)
and the widow's secondary cannot light a led.

===
Oh, and with both circuits going, the amps draw was 27.8mA higher than the berry alone, lower than the widow alone.

After a rest, I will reverse the places of the 2 circuits and put the widow in first.
-===-==-

I am pretty happy with this.
That it works at all is amazing.
I think it will be possible to find an amplification.

I would like to find a way to put the secondary from the berry directly into the toroid of the widow to get its vibrations going without the effect of the rectifier or the battery rail.

Maybe if I put it across just the base it will start up the second transistor.
Then would I use a cap across the C and E?
Hmm starting to sound like Stubblefield.

I better take a break!

thank you all,

jeanna

I took a picture of them both piggybacked lighting a light.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 10, 2009, 07:27:02 PM

@all

Here is the promised graphic.

We need now to get the best pickup coil connection in order to get the most output.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 10, 2009, 08:04:33 PM

Hi Jesus,

It looks beautiful.

I think L and M are still not right.
The 2 wires in the middle spot there are the primary joule thief otherwise bifilar windings. The letters L and M are to be reserved for the second sets of wires that make the MK2. So, the MK1 does not even have the L and M.

Yes?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 10, 2009, 08:15:42 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 10, 2009, 08:04:33 PM
Hi Jesus,

It looks beautiful.

I think L and M are still not right.
The 2 wires in the middle spot there are the primary joule thief otherwise bifilar windings. The letters L and M are to be reserved for the second sets of wires that make the MK2. So, the MK1 does not even have the L and M.

Yes?

jeanna

Thank you @Lady Jeanna.

You are right !

The L and the M were for the bifilar pickups.
I will repair it now and repost. I still have some time before the post becomes permanent.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 10, 2009, 08:20:16 PM

Jesus,
I just changed both the drawing and the schematic.

jeanna
edit

done

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 10, 2009, 08:53:49 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 10, 2009, 08:20:16 PM
Jesus,
I just changed both the drawing and the schematic. lets see.

jeanna
edit

I just removed the first one. I am not sure about the schematic. Where is the bjt? Is it in the box to the left? Or is it the way I just changed it?

I changed the posted graphic:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg170306#msg170306

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 10, 2009, 09:01:30 PM

Jesus:

Thank you. You are always on top of these things. I appreciate your efforts here.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 10, 2009, 09:06:27 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on April 10, 2009, 09:01:30 PM
Jesus:

Thank you. You are always on top of these things. I appreciate your efforts here.

Bill

Thank you @pirate!

@jeanna

Check if this composition answer your question.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 10, 2009, 09:18:29 PM

@jeanna

Check this link first. Maybe the answers are there already.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg169771#msg169771

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 10, 2009, 09:27:00 PM

@ALL

Concerning the positive feedback , it dose work ,but the mk8 is giving me better results for the same input, yes the positive feed back raises the overall output but you use 4 coil to do so , and those 4 coil could charge 4 more caps , in this view the overall gain may be marginal.

You can experiment with it , but build a mk1 first learn to tune it and go mk6 or 8 , you will then see the potential, and have learned valuable knowledge .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 10, 2009, 09:29:04 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on April 10, 2009, 09:27:00 PM
@ALL

Concerning the positive feedback , it dose work ,but the mk8 is giving me better results for the same input, yes the positive feed back raises the overall output but you use 4 coil to do so , and those 4 coil could charge 4 more caps , in this view the overall gain may be marginal.

You can experiment with it , but build a mk1 first learn to tune it and go mk6 or 8 , you will then see the potential, and have learned valuable knowledge .

Mark

Thank you @mk1 !

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 10, 2009, 09:29:26 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on April 10, 2009, 09:18:29 PM
@jeanna

Check this link first. Maybe the answers are there already.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg169771#msg169771

Jesus

Perfect.

I must have missed the edited version. It is very complete.

So, lets all get making some MK1's

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 10, 2009, 09:32:08 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 10, 2009, 09:29:26 PM
Perfect.

I must have missed the edited version. It is very complete.

So, lets all get making some MK1's

jeanna

I still have the same question.
How do I connect the two pickups in series? Is it the same way as the Joule thief coils are connected?

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 10, 2009, 09:48:26 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on April 10, 2009, 09:32:08 PM
]Is it the same way as the Joule thief coils are connected?

Definitely not this. The up and down takes care of the switch back.

QuoteI still have the same question.
How do I connect the two pickups in series?

No, Or maybe, but just make them and see.

I believe series is right, the part that you will not encounter until it is finished and right in front of you is that when you finish going up then down the first time, you see that what used to be cw has turned to ccw. Then your head begins to spin. So, Mark is right, (again!) just make the 2 pick ups then test each pair for the best voltage then solder them together.

I say this because even if you were to keep it straight while making the MK1, which I did, you will have a much more difficult time with the MK2 and then exponentially from there because with each new increase, you will have 4 wire ends to put together.

Plus, I believe, not sure, the better voltage from the MK2 comes from some added induction in some wires and it is not necessarily the best to keep them in series. I am not sure.

Later, I have a thought about keeping track of them so we WILL know, but for now, lets begin.

If anyone is not ready to commit real wire to this, it is possible to mock it up with string. Just to see what happens and how much wire to cut to not waste any etc. I like string. ;D
.
jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 10, 2009, 09:49:41 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on April 10, 2009, 07:27:02 PM
Here is the promised graphic.

We need now to get the best pickup coil connection in order to get the most output.

from what i make of the right most toroid, you are showing a end to end connection.
it must be end to start

the middle toroid
the arrow is confusing, the arrow should be on A1
B2 should be ending under the toroid like A1
the way i have build it, all coils start and end the same, the arrow should be on the J labeled side.

i find it simpler not to end all the wires at same region of the toroid.
each coils start and end at it begining and are easily identifiable.

same here:

Quote from: nievesoliveras on April 10, 2009, 09:06:27 PM

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 10, 2009, 10:01:18 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on April 10, 2009, 09:49:41 PM
...

the middle toroid
the arrow is confusing, the arrow should be on A1

Yes, theNOP,
It is true.

The A1 and A2 on the drawing should be reversed.
EDIT: no that is wrong the drawing is correct.
thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 10, 2009, 10:09:03 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 10, 2009, 10:01:18 PM
The A1 and A2 on the drawing should be reversed.

i have not noticed that, but now that you are saying it.
yep, that also.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 10, 2009, 10:14:52 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on April 10, 2009, 09:32:08 PM
I still have the same question.
How do I connect the two pickups in series? Is it the same way as the Joule thief coils are connected?

Jesus

First the jt coil are used in the regular jt circuit way, you connect them if it doesn't work then connect one of the coils the other way around.

Now the pickup coil are not connected to the circuit in any way , once you are done making a mk type pickup coil you can if you chose connect them in series , i usually test the 4 ways they can be connected since i don't always start on the same side of the toroid.

To charge caps they do not need to be connected in series , on the mk8 i charge 16 caps fast without serial connection
if i do connect them in series i will only have 8 cap charged faster higher . is it more , i cant say .

First build and tune .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 10, 2009, 10:18:21 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on April 10, 2009, 09:49:41 PM
from what i make of the right most toroid, you are showing a end to end connection.
it must be end to start

the middle toroid
the arrow is confusing, the arrow should be on A1
B2 should be ending under the toroid like A1
the way i have build it, all coils start and end the same, the arrow should be on the J labeled side.

i find it simpler not to end all the wires at same region of the toroid.
each coils start and end at it begining and are easily identifiable.

same here:

Quote from: jeanna on April 10, 2009, 10:01:18 PM
Yes, theNOP,
It is true.

The A1 and A2 on the drawing should be reversed.

thank you,

jeanna

If you look at the schematic included on the last composition, you will notice that the joule thief coil has A2 and B1 joined as the center tap to positive.

I did the same on the rightmost divided Joule thief coils.

If you see where the pick up coil J starts, it is the same as the primary coil A1, They start under the toroid.
If you see where the pick up coil K starts, it is the same as the primary coil B1, They start over the toroid.

The circuit and the real toroid must match and they are matched just like that.
If you want any changes, draw them on the composition and I will try to change them tomorrow.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 10, 2009, 10:22:45 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on April 10, 2009, 10:14:52 PM
First the jt coil are used in the regular jt circuit way, you connect them if it doesn't work then connect one of the coils the other way around.

Now the pickup coil are not connected to the circuit in any way , once you are done making a mk type pickup coil you can if you chose connect them in series , i usually test the 4 ways they can be connected since i don't always start on the same side of the toroid.

To charge caps they do not need to be connected in series , on the mk8 i charge 16 caps fast without serial connection
if i do connect them in series i will only have 8 cap charged faster higher . is it more , i cant say .

First build and tune .

Mark

Thank you @mk1 !

I need to wait for the wire. I will practice with the toroids I have using a string as @jeanna suggested. On that way I will know almost exactly the lenght of the wires that will be needed.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 10, 2009, 10:26:26 PM

@mikem_2au,
Nice to see you again mike, I went back a little bit and saw what you had written about the Joule Thief topic, "be very carefull, very addictice" how very true, lol
I hope you are getting some good results from your JTs.

@stprue,
Has anyomne used a carbon rod? I don't recall if anyone tried this, if you want to give it a go, get a D dry cell, and remove the carbon rod with a set of pliers, be careful to extract it in line with the body of the battery, you might have to give it a gentle twist.

@Jeanna,
Thankyou for the photo of "The Bad Blue" (TBB) this might catch on ha ha, if a magnet can affix itself to the side of TBB torid then it can absorb a magnetic field which can be used.

@all and especially to Jeanna,
I think I just may have a "new" way we can utilise the Torids.
I was looking at Jeannas photo she posted on P480, look for DSCF4744.jpg

There was a "bar" inserted inside the JT, then I thought, why has she put a magnet (my assumption) inside the torid?
Then I went and got all my Neos Magnets and 2 large torids and placed 4 neos between 2 torids, jpg is here/below to show you.

Now instantly I thought, wind a JT bifilar around the magnets, wind a secondary on the two torids and see what happens.

I havent done this yet, got more thinking to do.

Then I did something else. I got a heep of other torrids and connected them in a magnetic chain so to speak, they all held together.

Nice, so what now? what would I get if I would a secondaries on all torids and they are all magnetically coupled.

Get enough torids and one could make a daisy torid chain hmmmmmm time.

@all
could someone do an experiment please, cause I carnt get my hands in the stuff I need to do it, and this could benifit all of us.
I want to see the magnetic fields a torid puts out.
1 with only a bare torid
2 with just the JT bifilar windings
3 with JT windings and 1 secondary
4 with a MK1 setup
5 with a MK2 setup

Hold a torid under a stiff thin plastic sheet, sprinkle fine iron filings on top of the plastic sheet, energise the torrid take a photo of it.
Where the magnetic lines are concentrated, that is the best place to place secondaries, if the torid has a dead spot, then mark it with a permanent marker, so one would only have to do it once.

If I can see the magnetic lines of force, this will give me the best area to place any other windings on that torrid.

OK I had better get these photo I took an hour ago.
jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 10, 2009, 10:28:58 PM

@Mk1
there are different kind of brushes.

the ones in household device, blenders, saws, drills, etc..., are high voltage low currents type, 120volts 15 amps.
they will wear fast with more currents.

the ones for 12 volts device are good for more currents.
but, from what i have been told, they don't support high voltage very well.

the advice i got was not to use the 120volts type for applications that require lots of currents.
2 sources sayed the same, one is a household device repaire men(vaccum cleanner, blender, etc...)
the other was from a car electric repaire/rebuilder shop(starter, alternator)

there are also industrial types, but they are hard to find an cost a lot more.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 10, 2009, 10:36:01 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on April 10, 2009, 10:18:21 PM
If you look at the schematic included on the last composition, you will notice that the joule thief coil has A2 and B1 joined as the center tap to positive.

...
If you want any changes, draw them on the composition and I will try to change them tomorrow.

Jesus

EDIT
Your picture is correct.

oops sorry.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dog812 on April 10, 2009, 10:48:52 PM

Well i have given up on the color changer LED's .. they just dont seem to work very well with more than one..
I am powering 42 colored leds with just a JT and a AAA.. the only ones that seem to play nice together are the blues, whites and pinks.. I also added some greens but they dim the blues a little.

(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.postimage.org%2FaV1Fy4wJ.jpg&hash=a08177d09c8c36ebe9e0a39902e631722b4a7753) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV1Fy4wJ)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 10, 2009, 11:05:35 PM

Good job dog812!

waydago!!

It looks ready to go into a AA battery holder.

Is it?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dog812 on April 10, 2009, 11:09:40 PM

yah the case around the AA is so it will fit AA holders..
Because my led hula hoops are only 3/4" diameter . And the AA battery holders dont fit.. So i am stuck with the AAA - AA things..

I am trying to work out all the bugs before i put a hoop together with the JT in..

Any ideas how i can make it work better? Or get more LED's of differnt colors / voltages in there? Usually i like to use etleast 7 different colors, 3 of each.. = 21 in total.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 10, 2009, 11:24:32 PM

dog812,

It has been around 5 years now since I made some led "candles" using 2 AAA and 47 ohm resistor and a switch.

I wanted them to be brighter, In series they were all less bright and every time I put them in parallel one would be brighter than the other. I guess they must be pretty evenly matched. And, there is nothing for it.

It would be very tedious to hand match them every time you made them. At least they are so much more standard now, they don't give that same problem they used to with the same color. Well, maybe they still do, and there is enough phosphor on the brights that it hides the difference??

Actually Amigo occasionally stops by and gives us his favorite led site. If you read all the pages to get here, you have seen his posts. Maybe that led information could help. I hope so.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dog812 on April 10, 2009, 11:25:23 PM

I have tried using a resistor , the smallest one i have is a 47 ohm.. And the yellow , orange will light up.. but very dim..
Will a smaller resistor work? Like 1 ohm ?

Also what are caps used for.. i plug a cap in the board and it turns it off.. I put a 47 ohm resistor on one side and plug it in and it stays lit but dim.. ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 10, 2009, 11:32:16 PM

Quote from: dog812 on April 10, 2009, 11:25:23 PM
I have tried using a resistor , the smallest one i have is a 47 ohm.. And the yellow , orange will light up.. but very dim..
Will a smaller resistor work? Like 1 ohm ?

Also what are caps used for.. i plug a cap in the board and it turns it off.. I put a 47 ohm resistor on one side and plug it in and it stays lit but dim.. ?

I heard somewhere that you could put two like resistors in parallel and half the resistance of the one.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dog812 on April 10, 2009, 11:36:45 PM

Like one on the positive and one on the negative? or 2 in line together?
Sorry i dont know what that means?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 10, 2009, 11:37:14 PM

You don't need either of those if you're doing the lights off the secondary, which you are.

If you were to use capacitors you would use them to smooth the wave. I think you will lose too much light because the cap will tamp down the high frequency effect. I am no expert on caps, and I probably shouldn't be answering you, but I am pretty sure you won't benefit from either.

Definitely not the resistor. I used that because in a normal dc type circuit the led will not light with 1.5 volts. So, I needed to use 2 AAA's and a resistor. you literally burn the materials inside the led when you use 3 battery volts with no resistor.

It is the amps that burn the led. the volts we are discovering more every day... more to come ;)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 10, 2009, 11:43:24 PM

Quote from: dog812 on April 10, 2009, 11:36:45 PM
Like one on the positive and one on the negative? or 2 in line together?
Sorry i dont know what that means?

Twisting the leads of the resistors together. ...treating two as one, they will be side by side, ie, parallel. ...series is one after another.

| | < parallel & series > _ _

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dog812 on April 10, 2009, 11:45:15 PM

I am not using the secondary right now.. just a straight JT with 6 paired turns..

I found that the secondarys i tried didnt light up bright enough .. and were too time consuming to make..

Unless you know of a easy jt with secondary that will work for me?

I tried both ways with the resistors.. it made no difference with the amount of light ...

but now i added 7 more LED's 4 red, 3 orange, up to 49 off one recahnrgeable AAA .. so we'll see how long it lasts ..

I still need to make them brighter if i am going to use the JT in my hula hoops.. http://ledhulahoop.com

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 10, 2009, 11:55:48 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on April 10, 2009, 04:39:34 PM
@All
i am still asking myself witch way i should go. :-\

mechanical rotary switch
using a motor to turn it.
the switch would have to be custom made.

i could probably use multiple brushes around a flywheel that have only one contact.
that contact would be connected to the shaft and a brush used to pickup the output.
a mk8 would require 16 separated brushes, connected to the 16 caps separately.

someone have other ideas on how to easily make such switch ?

Hello TheNOP,

A mechanical rotary switch could be made from a comutator from an armature from any generator (not alternator) electric drill, grinder etc etc.

Remove every second brass contact the brush usually makes contact with, be careful you don't dislodge the ones nexto it.
Then fill the space with epoxy 2 pack that will harden to a glass finish, put this modified armature in a lathe and turn the whole lot to a smooth finish (I used to do this as an autoelectrician), then ressamble.

I forgot to mention to remove all the windings, after that, solder a wire link to the oppersate communitor bar pieces so the armature brushes can make continunity.

BTW, armatures are designed to be spun at very high speed, and make millions and millions of mechanical contacts.
Drive this with a electric motor using PWM control circuit, to give you a speed contril.

hope this helps.
jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 10, 2009, 11:55:49 PM

@ dog812

Quote from: dog812 on April 10, 2009, 11:09:40 PM
Any ideas how i can make it work better? Or get more LED's of differnt colors / voltages in there? Usually i like to use etleast 7 different colors, 3 of each.. = 21 in total.

Not all LEDs turn on at the same voltage. When you put an LED that turns on at 3.0 volts in parallel with an LED that turns on at 3.5 volts, only the 3.0 volt LED will turn on. This is because as soon as the lowest voltage LED turns on it hogs all of the current and the voltage will never go higher than what that LED needs to stay on.
If the LEDs are in series this problem does not occur.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 11, 2009, 12:01:07 AM

Dog812,

Did you see my post from earlier today?

It is on page 480. Look at the 3rd picture and get that toroid. It fits into the AA battery holder and I wound a secondary I remember only 20 or 30 winds with red radio shack mag wire. It lit all 30 of my bright white leds. They were in a parallel arrangement. that is, just as jadaro just described, as though all the long legs were taped together and all the short ones together. each wire which is the end of the secondary goes to one leg of the led pack. Try it with one then 3 just to get the concept.

You want to persist on this one. It is the way to go for sure

allelectronics part# TOR-23, 10/$1. 10 cents a piece. It is a very good deal. Mag wire is great but you must sand the varnish off right? It is great for your application because it is so very thin.

try it again,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dog812 on April 11, 2009, 12:07:31 AM

I dont see how you wound 20 or 30 secondarys in that pic??
maybe i dont understand ?

you wind 2 wires together to make the JT , that is the primary , correct?
Then you take a second single wire, and wind it.. that is the secondary, correct?

In your picture all i see is the pair of wires winded together?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 11, 2009, 01:50:34 AM

Quote from: dog812 on April 11, 2009, 12:07:31 AM

you wind 2 wires together to make the JT , that is the primary , correct?
Then you take a second single wire, and wind it.. that is the secondary, correct?

I'm sorry dog812, the pic is too blurry. If you look carefully you will see a shininess around a lot of the red in the center of the toroid in the bottom pic. That is the very thin red varnish coated mag wire. It is so thin that it is easy to pull it tight when winding it as secondary and really bury it in between the primary wires. Yes, you are correct about the wires. It is just a lousy picture.

I was busy with my latest tests and didn't get back to you. Sorry for that. It probably looked rude.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 11, 2009, 01:59:35 AM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on April 10, 2009, 10:18:21 PM
If you look at the schematic included on the last composition, you will notice that the joule thief coil has A2 and B1 joined as the center tap to positive.

I did the same on the rightmost divided Joule thief coils.

If you see where the pick up coil J starts, it is the same as the primary coil A1, They start under the toroid.
If you see where the pick up coil K starts, it is the same as the primary coil B1, They start over the toroid.

The circuit and the real toroid must match and they are matched just like that.
If you want any changes, draw them on the composition and I will try to change them tomorrow.

sorry to annoy you with this again, i could'nt resist.
not that it give me problems.

it is just that i am trying to anticipate newcomers questions.
perfection come from small details...

your graphic make sense as a whole, yes.
but not when comparing to other "how to make jt" on the internet.

most state biffilar, wound in same direction.
if you were to slide one of the coil 180 degrees around, each coil will be a mirror of the other.
that is depicted in your pictures rightmost toroid.
but the connection does not go with schematics showing end to start connection of the coils.
that simple faq can be misleading when trying to make out the circuit from different sources.

the middle toroid, left side coil, is not a problem.
it is wound in reverse to get the start and end at the south possition
the winding is still in same direction and create a mirror of the right coil.

again, i feel that:
all coils be made the same is simple and, no or very little, questions can arise from that.

i would like to modify the pictures..., the faq is i don't know how and/or if i have the right software to do that.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 11, 2009, 02:27:35 AM

@All,
Well it sure is a good thing I am doing this for my own edification and not for your approval! ;) Your silence on this afternoon's report is deafening!

Here is another one. Now, don't go to sleep!

I kept the berry in the initial jt spot and used its secondary wires in the battery rail of the next jtc as earlier.
This time I used a toroid named XTree. XTree has 7T,7T,116T2^o

All the same components are in both breadboards.
2N3904 one in each circuit
950 ohm at base of Berry's transistor
820 ohm at the base of the XTree's transistor

As before,

I checked the vitals of each one separately then when combined I took the combo vitals.

So, The only thing I really need to mention is that the XTree with its 116T2^o puts out a bit more juice than the widow. That is why I picked it for this next trial.

From the battery as a bjt:
XTree secondary produces 9 volts rectified, and through that same bridge a cap collects 25 volts

==
So, after I put the Berry's secondary into the battery rail of the XTree jt circuit, I measured 23.7mA being drawn out of the battery for the 2 ckts together. [the battery goes into the berry ckt and only the berry's secondary wires go into the XTree's ckt.]

With the XTree being fed juice from only the secondary off the Berry ckt, the XTree's bjt led goes on just nice and bright.
I tested a couple of things and NOW, the rectified voltage off the XTree's secondary is 16.5 volts. The scope says 4.36 volts

I connected the XTree's secondary wires to the legs of- and lit - 3 leds in parallel.

They are not bright, but they are running off a second generation secondary being fed 4.36 volts.

And you aren't impressed enough to comment. man what a bunch. ;D ;D

Finally, here is a blurry picture with labels that didn't turn out as well as I had hoped.
Including one insert from a different angle.
You can clearly see that there are 2 circuits here.
It is hard to see the secondary wires which is too bad. The berry secondary wires are in the battery rail feeding the Xtree ckt. And the XTree secondary wires are wrapped around the legs of one of those 3 lights.

I think this is really cool.

Wait til I put in something really powerful.

Actually, as always, I am trying to see what goes on. You may not remember, I want to make a hand wound circuit that has the same kind of kick up and power of the fuji circuit. And I am hoping to be able to start it with an earth battery. If not, a single AA or AAA.

here is the pic.

jeanna

The Berry is to the right and the XTree is on the left.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 11, 2009, 02:41:58 AM

Jeanna:

I, for one, am paying attention and I am sure I am not alone. Don't let the "silence" fool you. I watch, and if I have nothing constructive to add (which happens a lot) then I remain silent. All of us know the hard work and rigid documentation you do on your experiments and we are all the better for it. Don't ever think otherwise. I have like 5 projects going on at one time so please do not take my silence for lack of respect for your efforts. I am a better experimenter from having worked with you and I am sure others here feel the same.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 11, 2009, 02:44:01 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 10, 2009, 11:32:16 PM
I heard somewhere that you could put two like resistors in parallel and half the resistance of the one.

in parallel
R total = 1 / 1/R1 + 1/R2 + 1/R3 ... + 1/Rn

in series
R total = R1 + R2 + R3 ... + Rn

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on April 11, 2009, 02:51:05 AM

Ditto to that Bill ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 11, 2009, 02:52:29 AM

Quote from: jeanna on April 11, 2009, 02:27:35 AM
The scope says 4.36 volts

just thinking of something...
what is your scope's probe set at, 1X or 10 X ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 11, 2009, 08:23:06 AM

@Jeanna

I have been reading up on some of the posts I have missed, now thankfully I'm up to date.
Now then, lets seeee what do we have we here ;D

Quote from: jeanna on April 11, 2009, 02:27:35 AM
@All,
Well it sure is a good thing I am doing this for my own edification and not for your approval! ;) Your silence on this afternoon's report is deafening!
Here is another one. Now, don't go to sleep!
I think this is really cool.

Wait til I put in something really powerful.

Mabeeee we are all in shock and struck dumb and carnt reply he he he. ;)
Wellll Im getting tired now and due a sleep, trouble is, Im at 180 degrese from you lot, an upsidedown to boot ha ha.
Knowing you Jeanna, you will come up with something powerfull, look out all, get the tin hats on, something big is going to happen,,,,,

Seriously Jeanna, as Bill and a couple of others may have mentioned, you do, doo excellent work, I have also noticed over the years, you have the ability to roll three times as much work into your Joule Thief or "stubblefield" projects as "almost" anyone else, not trying to over state this, just taking notice.

I also, like Bill have have noticed the thorough way you record all your obversations, can I prove it, yes.
One of the photos you posted of a JT has also come along for the ride, the waveforms can be seen in your jottings, I don't know of anyone else who goes to these lengths, but then again you are a scientist.

I also read the posts (which can take me quite a while as I have dialup), and I think for quite a while about what I have read, not only your posts, but all others as well. (then I forget it). :D

The amount of research you do puts me to shame, I'm not saying go slow, just keep going at the pase you have set.

Well its 10:10 PM here, time for me to hit the sack, so if there is any flaming, I'll be better able to handle it with a fresh mind. 8)

hooroo all
jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: mikem_2au on April 11, 2009, 11:32:06 AM

well, didn't get around to winding a mk2 today, hope to have it done in a day or 2 and
if all works out ok, i will post some results along with pics.

Thanks all for the reply's.

@electricme, i got good results with the mk1, mixed results with other experiments..
but a good way to learn, Trial and Error.. good to hear from you.

@WilbyInebria, thankyou, i didn't notice the discusion you were having until after i posted,
i now know what you mean by 'perfect timing'

@Pirate88179, Thankyou for the welcome, i hope to post some photo's soon.

@jeanna, i'm the one that should be thanking you, your persistence with the mk-series is one of the
reasons i have started replicating the mk1, and now the mk2. i am glad my results were of some
interest to you.

Thank you @mk1, and for all the information you have posted on your mk-series.

well, tis late and i'm betting my kids will be up early, Happy Easter....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on April 11, 2009, 12:01:26 PM

Well at. 2.4mp I still can't post pic's! ???

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 11, 2009, 12:07:30 PM

@ stprue

I think the limit is 250 kB. I usually reduce size and convert to gif.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dog812 on April 11, 2009, 12:34:24 PM

use a external picture host..
http://www.postimage.org/ and just post the direct link.

Example :
http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV1Fy4wJ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on April 11, 2009, 12:38:04 PM

Just a test!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 11, 2009, 12:43:02 PM

@jeanna

Needless to say that without your replication , i would be in trouble , you do confirm most of my research , and help people
understand and also make them want to try.

So far on the piggy back , i have noting else to say , i am planing on redoing my experiment but with a lm317 to get a steady 1.5 v the power the second toroid, if it can be done with success then i will try to power the first toroid from the second one , so one powering the other .

Thank again, for everything!

Mark

Picture of the mk8 16 pickup coils on a one inch toroid

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on April 11, 2009, 12:43:12 PM

Ok finally, here is the hazens 1 rig I have been using. I have also made a 555IC that has adjustable wavelength and frequency. Let me know what you think!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on April 11, 2009, 12:43:51 PM

Rig

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on April 11, 2009, 12:44:16 PM

Underside

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on April 11, 2009, 12:45:17 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on April 10, 2009, 01:50:14 AM
Ah, the earth battery comes up again. Gadget already ran his JT from the EB and soon, I will be attempting the same. Jeanna, maybe all that work and research we did a while back will pay off for us soon?

Bill

Hi Bill Congrats on being a Mod !!! . very Cool . Yes i am working on several Earth Projects .soon to light up 1000 leds !! . I also am experimenting with the 555 timer to replace the transistor for a more precise frequency adjustment . and yes the work on 1 volt !! no more current drain than a silicon transistor so the it doesn't take 5 volts to run a 555 timer . also i will get some time to give out a schematic or two when i get them drawn . I got me 4 cameras off eBay for less than 40 dollars for all of them . three are 8 Mp !!! on is 5 mp . I love them so no more blurry videos or photos . I miss you guys and need to catch up here so I'll be on the back burner for a while . Also try Darlingtin transistors . they will more than double the output and you can feed back a secondary to make it run with less ma draw . I've done it from 120 Ma and feedback to less than 50 ma with 300volts out . Not Mk stuff just normal jts with few secondaries .
Look . i love you guys and Belive me . Love Christ and Happy Easter !!

Albert

aka Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 11, 2009, 01:08:13 PM

@ stprue

Looks nice. Can you post some of your performance results, such as voltage out and battery current? What transistor are you using? What is base resistor value?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dog812 on April 11, 2009, 01:09:47 PM

Will using different components make the LED's brighter?
Like using a 3904 instead of the 2n2222?
Or using a smaller resistor ? like a 900 ohm instead of 1k ohm?

or does any of that matter?

Does it matter what kind of wire you use? Strand or solid?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 11, 2009, 01:34:28 PM

I've noticed that the associated parts do change the dynamics of the circuit - if you want to throw more current at your load, then you will need to get a new transistor.

Personally, I've toyed with the idea of using this CRT transistor..high frequency, higher current and higher overall tolerance.

The 3904 will give you more range to work with. Some people have mentioned stressing the components - after all, most of them only cost about 15c each save for the LED itself, which I have actually blow on more than one occasion.

There are arguments for an against all ideologies of mechanics regarding how you setup you joule thief circuit.

@555 timer interested people,

Try using a transistor as a switch between the to be tested joule thief and the 555 timer circuit. This will isolate the 555 timer from the joule thief elements. You will need two batteries, of course.

@all, this thread has jumped 16 pages in two days, ad before that, when there was so much confusion about how to wind a toroid, it jumped 10 pages. Very interesting.

Nice setups everyone. Lately I've been working with two jtc's on one toroid, I'm attempting to use a single resisted source for a switch. When one jt turns on, the other is off, and the inductance which causes the oscillation to turn off then activates the other jt. This has been working, but at reduced voltages.

I'm actually having problems figuring out how to wind it, I want to create AC, not a malformed DC-biased AC.

SO I have a problem, How do I form AC from three wires, one is common ground ( - ) and the other two are positive, yet one if off and the other is one while in operation? I imagine a Diode arrangement might do the trick, ..but I'm thinking it's a bit more complicated than this.

If this works, I won't need a mechanical switch, or a drinking bird ( which operates through evaporation, and thus it's timing varies with the atmosphere )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 11, 2009, 01:47:24 PM

@ jadaro2600

For symetrical AC you should experiment with circuits like this

http://www.aaroncake.net/circuits/inverter.asp

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on April 11, 2009, 02:09:47 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 11, 2009, 01:34:28 PM
I've noticed that the associated parts do change the dynamics of the circuit - if you want to throw more current at your load, then you will need to get a new transistor.

Personally, I've toyed with the idea of using this CRT transistor..high frequency, higher current and higher overall tolerance.

The 3904 will give you more range to work with. Some people have mentioned stressing the components - after all, most of them only cost about 15c each save for the LED itself, which I have actually blow on more than one occasion.

There are arguments for an against all ideologies of mechanics regarding how you setup you joule thief circuit.

@555 timer interested people,

Try using a transistor as a switch between the to be tested joule thief and the 555 timer circuit. This will isolate the 555 timer from the joule thief elements. You will need two batteries, of course.

@all, this thread has jumped 16 pages in two days, ad before that, when there was so much confusion about how to wind a toroid, it jumped 10 pages. Very interesting.

Nice setups everyone. Lately I've been working with two jtc's on one toroid, I'm attempting to use a single resisted source for a switch. When one jt turns on, the other is off, and the inductance which causes the oscillation to turn off then activates the other jt. This has been working, but at reduced voltages.

I'm actually having problems figuring out how to wind it, I want to create AC, not a malformed DC-biased AC.

SO I have a problem, How do I form AC from three wires, one is common ground ( - ) and the other two are positive, yet one if off and the other is one while in operation? I imagine a Diode arrangement might do the trick, ..but I'm thinking it's a bit more complicated than this.

If this works, I won't need a mechanical switch, or a drinking bird ( which operates through evaporation, and thus it's timing varies with the atmosphere )

Hi . you dont need two batteries . One will will run a 555 . they will operate on very low volts and current if given the proper circuit . . So they are juts like leds in a way they are all measured at dc values not PDC . PDC will run brighter with less current . . Yes its cool that you are trying to reinvent the inverter , i want to too but run it off the earth instead of Mucho batteries . Lets .get to work !!

Gadget ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 11, 2009, 03:19:34 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on April 11, 2009, 02:52:29 AM
just thinking of something...
what is your scope's probe set at, 1X or 10 X ?

Hi theNOP

It was set up as 1x.

If 10x, I would have had to divide by 10 to get the real voltage figure.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 11, 2009, 04:01:57 PM

The switches need to be replaced by complilmentary square waves from the 555 timer. You will have to figure out how to do that yourself.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 11, 2009, 05:00:20 PM

@xee2,

Thank you for that diagram. It makes me think that if things are arranged well, the only adjustment needed is in the base resistor.

And many of us have been doing a lot of preliminary investigation on that one ! ;)

Thanks you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 11, 2009, 08:00:50 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on April 11, 2009, 02:09:47 PM
Hi . you dont need two batteries . One will will run a 555 . they will operate on very low volts and current if given the proper circuit . . So they are juts like leds in a way they are all measured at dc values not PDC . PDC will run brighter with less current . . Yes its cool that you are trying to reinvent the inverter , i want to too but run it off the earth instead of Mucho batteries . Lets .get to work !!

Gadget ..

This isn't exactly what I was hinting at, but ..

I was more referring to using two separate energy sources, one to power the 555 and one to power the JT.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 11, 2009, 10:14:16 PM

@Jeanna

I am taking a liberty her and reposting your Berry and Widdow JT (which appeared midway down on P482) test, for the purpose of us all here to go over it again.
You have started another JT setup you know, don't you? This is another way to use the JT as a POWER SUPPLY.

I recommend us all to take a look at this again, and see if we can improve on it, if this is OK with Jeanna, of course.

This is similar to what I did wayyyy back just after I joined this thread, but I didn't think to piggyback another JT powered by the FIRST JT
I went on by powering another torid, which if I recall it had a "primary and a adjustable "secondary" which had "taps" coming out which had a 12gang switch so I could "select" whatever output I need at the time.

Quote from: jeanna on April 10, 2009, 06:21:19 PM
OK everyone,
While you were all typing this morning, I was trying out something I have wanted to test for a while.

This is what I called a piggyback a few weeks ago. For non americans, it means one carried on the back of another.

I wondered if the hay-wagon could give a lot more free rides.

First I set up a bjt using the one from the pic this morning. That is the 'berry'
the berry has 11T,11T with 36T2^o
I tested its amps and stuff

Then I took the berry's 2^o wires and tried two different things with them
1- I put them through a full bridge then into the battery rail of another jtc
2- I put them straight into the battery rail of another jtc.

This battery rail is the input for a second jtc which is pretty closely matched.
I just named it 'widow' because it is black and red.
it has 5T, 8T, 40T 2^o

There are 2 breadboard circuits.
Both use 2N3904
around 800-950 ohm resistor at the base of the transistor.

(I know,I know, I can get more bigger results with lower resistance here. This is a study.)
The battery is starting to run down. It is at 1.31v.
===
here goes:

I used the berry for the first jt

The first jtc draws 26.2mA by itself.
When the secondary wires are passed through a full bridge it I can collect 22 -37 volts in a cap(wow)
Also from the secondary, the scope sees 8.22 v with 1 wave showing at 120 kHz.
We already know this berry lights lots of leds 5 in series or 29+ in parallel.

[I also checked out using a 3 volt battery, but more on that later.]

Then I put the widow into its own breadboard.
This by itself draws
33mA with a led
38mA with no led
Between the secondary wires, the scope reports
11.5volts with no led
6.9 volts with a led in the bjt place.

==

Now for the fun

I put the secondary wires from the berry through the bridge then jumpered them into the battery rail of the widow.

The bjt led of the widow actually went on although dimly,
The secondary wires from one jtc actually started up a whole second jt circuit!!!!!.]
I tried using a 104pF cap across the transistor base resistor and it did not help with the light or it was not noticeable.

MK suggested I try the piggy back without rectifying and so I stuck the secondary wires from the berry straight into the battery rail of the widow's circuit, without rectification.
This must reduce the effect by half since the rail is designed for dc from a battery.

The light went on dimly.
I used the 104pF cap in the base resistor place and the light steadied. It was still dim, but no longer flickery.

Now, I checked the widow's secondary wires 2 ways.

1- through the full bridge.and collected in a cap it filled the cap to 1.4 volts (not much but more than the starting battery.)

2- Without the bridge the scope reported 0.51 volts between the 2 secondary wires, (even without the led and 104pF cap)
and the widow's secondary cannot light a led.

===
Oh, and with both circuits going, the amps draw was 27.8mA higher than the berry alone, lower than the widow alone.

After a rest, I will reverse the places of the 2 circuits and put the widow in first.
-===-==-

I am pretty happy with this.
That it works at all is amazing.
I think it will be possible to find an amplification.

I would like to find a way to put the secondary from the berry directly into the toroid of the widow to get its vibrations going without the effect of the rectifier or the battery rail.

Maybe if I put it across just the base it will start up the second transistor.
Then would I use a cap across the C and E?
Hmm starting to sound like Stubblefield.

I better take a break!

thank you all,

jeanna

I took a picture of them both piggybacked lighting a light.

Jeanna, if you have this circuit, might you post it here please.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 11, 2009, 10:57:11 PM

@all,
Got myself a whole lot of Green LED's, :) saw this at the Dalby scrap place I frequently go to, I took the chance they would all be blown, Payed about a $5 for the lot, they had been exposed to the weather, got a bit dirty, but they all work, he he.
So what is it? It's is a green traffic light
What else did I get? well a heep of Torids on 3 circuit boards, along with some big relays and thyristers and neons.

AFTER FEASTING ON THIS LOT, go back and read Jeanna's item ABOVE.
see if you can understand it

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 11, 2009, 11:06:15 PM

OH Jim,

It gets even better!

I will post today's wonderfulness as a schematic so you can look at it right away, then I will add to the post with an edit later so they are together, and I will be explaining it.

wow. you really got some prizes today. ye shall be known as, "Jackpot Jim".

;),

jeanna

EDIT

To explain.

I added some sophistication by re-naming this as a 2Tier Joule Thief Circuit. This explains itself.

Also, Most of the following description is what I did with the second tier. If I did it to any element of the first tier, I say so.

The first tier is a pretty straight forward joule thief with secondary.

Widow Toroid - "Charcoal Tor-23" 5T,8T,40T2^o
2N3904 Transistor
237Ohm Resistor at Base of transistor
1.35v battery

The secondary is fed into the - and + of the second tier battery rail.

XTree toroid "Charcoal tor-23" 7T,7T,116T2^o
NO transistor
NO resistor at base either
BJTLED is necessary and on
3 LED in || running off the secondary
The orphaned JT lead with no transistor connects to the - side of the Secondary leds for increased brightness.

Once it was going I tuned the base resistor on the first tier to achieve best brightness. This was 237 ohm as drawn.

When I removed the second transistor and saw the lights all stay on and maybe get a bit brighter, I looked around for a place to stick the orphaned lead from the toroid.

Connecting it to the - battery rail (second tier ), all the lights went out.
Connecting it to the + battery rail (second tier ), the BJT led stays on, but all the secondary leds go out.
Connecting it to the - of the secondary set of leds all the lights stayed on and the secondary fed lights got a bit brighter.

Since the led is a diode I replaced it in the BJT position with a 1N4001 type diode (the only kind I have) observing polarity and all the secondary lights went out.

I can put the BJT led into the - and + slots of the 2nd battery rail, but the secondary lights go out. This may be because I am limiting it because the bjt is a yellow and the secondaries are white.
The BJT can be white. BUT not in the battery rail. It won't light there.

Finally I checked the amps draw at the battery, because it seemed to me that there was much that was dependent on a good flow.
It was 54.21mA so, it was drawing a lot. And when I connected the battery + in series to the 10 ohm resistor for checking the amps, the secondary lights (on the second tier) went way dim.
If I use a bright white for the BJT of the second tier, the amps draw goes down to 52.6mA.

I am no longer working with matched bright whites. I will spend some time to match a few, I think I am confounding a few things I don't need to by using unmatched LEDs.

But, anyway...

YES!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 11, 2009, 11:10:17 PM

@ Gadgetmall:

Thanks Al, good to see you again.

@ Jim:

Nice find at the scrap yard!!! I ran across a place on the net that sells used traffic lights....just the leds....I'll see if I can dig it up. Good way to get a bunch of them. Nice toroids! Looks like some of them are pretty thick, you will have a lot of fun with those I'll bet.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 11, 2009, 11:29:03 PM

@ All:

Stefan has been kind enough to make me a moderator on my topics. So, if anyone has posted somethnig, say a schematic, that later turns out to be incorrect and they want it removed for clarity, pm me with the page number and a title of the posted diagram and I can now remove it.

This will also help me greatly with the other topic as I have had folks tell me that something is not correct and by the time I go back...it was too late for me to change it. So, if anyone notices any errors on the diagrams topic, same thing, let me know I and I will make the change. Thank you all again.

Bil

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 12, 2009, 02:04:58 AM

@Bill,
Thanks for the kind words Bill, and it is also good to know you have been made a moderator of your forum, congradulations.
So that is what all those green stars are for ha ha ;D

I do have a post for you to take care of, I will PM you its location, TA

Quote from: Pirate88179 on April 11, 2009, 11:10:17 PM
@ Jim:

Nice find at the scrap yard!!! I ran across a place on the net that sells used traffic lights....just the leds....I'll see if I can dig it up. Good way to get a bunch of them. Nice toroids! Looks like some of them are pretty thick, you will have a lot of fun with those I'll bet.

Bill

I'm surprised you all didn't hear my yell of surprise when I hooked them up and they all lit up, whacko hooray.

@all,
If you look closley at one of them (torids), there is 2 inside one wire wrapps, soooo what have we here? I have heard we can piggyback torids one on top of each other heres proof.

Would Jeanna be able to make a double torid of each JT she posted 2day in her amazing circuit? ;)
instead of her single JT torids, I bet there is heeps more power to tap out of them now. Sorry Jeanna, no rest for you tomorra he he ;D

Congradulations Jeanna, on your amasing success with your present JT.
Now a hint, begin to think about paralling up the second stages.

Whats the final gole all? turn it into a power station. GRUNT n MUSCLE eeeee harrrrr

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on April 12, 2009, 11:07:56 AM

@jeanna bravo! i just love the way you take the basic jt and keep on extending it.

@jim wow, nice score :o, i'm jealous

@stprue nice builds! glad you took the perfect timing comment the way i meant it, after i read it, i realized it might be construed the wrong way.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 12, 2009, 11:13:04 AM

@all

Look at this it can be done with a toroid. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEEaAwwGTZM

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on April 12, 2009, 12:09:26 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 11, 2009, 11:06:15 PM

Great work Jeanna

I have tried to drive one JT with another several times without success .

I will try to replicate your findings soon

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 12, 2009, 12:51:01 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 11, 2009, 03:19:34 PM
It was set up as 1x.

If 10x, I would have had to divide by 10 to get the real voltage figure.

thanks.

err..., i think you meant, multiple by 10.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 12, 2009, 12:54:54 PM

@MK1:

That video is very interesting. Folks should look at that and see what maybe we can do with it. Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 12, 2009, 02:08:47 PM

@all

I have found this interesting schematic , searching for the tpu. also http://www.loris-hemlof.com/thetpu.pdf

This one is for fun http://www.loris-hemlof.com/UFO.html I don't really care what people think about ufo , i am bias since i have seen one years ago.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 12, 2009, 02:53:06 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on April 12, 2009, 11:13:04 AM
@all

Look at this it can be done with a toroid. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEEaAwwGTZM

Thanks MK1,

I do think it is just about fiddling. The mag field in/around/from/to/? the center of my toroids has made the light go out and the transistor momentarily stop working on several of my jtc's. I am not surprised to see what this video showed.

Thanks for sharing the link.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 12, 2009, 03:20:55 PM

Quote from: electricme on April 12, 2009, 02:04:58 AM

If you look closley at one of them (torids), there is 2 inside one wire wrapps, soooo what have we here? I have heard we can piggyback torids one on top of each other heres proof.

Would Jeanna be able to make a double torid of each JT she posted 2day in her amazing circuit? ;)
instead of her single JT torids, I bet there is heeps more power to tap out of them now. Sorry Jeanna, no rest for you tomorra he he ;D

Congradulations Jeanna, on your amasing success with your present JT.

thanks

QuoteNow a hint, begin to think about paralling up the second stages.

jim

Hold that thought, Jim.

I still need to make 2 tiered circuits with the filter and the medium toroids. (I will skip the "bad blue" and only maybe use the high permeability). .

Then even later, I will be using the MK2 which actually has multiple secondaries on one toroid.

My thought on adding layers of coils and toroids is to go slowly. I think it is all too easy to happen upon a phase cancelling effect by stabbing at coils in the dark, so to speak. I want a better idea of what to expect from small multiplications before I go too fast.

(I always dive right into the deep end, but then, I get out of the pool and learn how to swim - if you get my meaning.)

@theNOP,
I did mean divide. That is about the only thing that is clear in my manual. ... I think...

@Thanks all for smiling at my results and progress.

@All,
please advise.
I asked jesus a while back to make the secondary drawn in a less schematic and more drawing way. It helps to explain with the schematic more precisely what I am doing. If it is unnecessary and too wrong and odd, please let me know and I will change the schematic.

I will be going through the most likely suspects in the next week(s) and posting that schematic over and over, so, now is a better time to change it. The real advantage of using the "proper" schematic is that I can easily identify how many turns are on each side of the primary, and how many turns in the secondary right there in the schematic.

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 12, 2009, 04:11:57 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on April 12, 2009, 03:20:55 PM
I did mean divide. That is about the only thing that is clear in my manual. ... I think...

The 10x probe means that the voltage at the tip of the probe is 10 times larger than what goes to your scope. Therefore you need to multiply the scope reading by 10 to get the voltage at the probe tip. Some scopes will sense what probe is set to and automatically adjust the value displayed so that no multiplication or division is needed. Sometimes probes are marked divide by 10 instead of 10X, but both probes do the same thing - it is very confussing but that is the way it is. That is why I suggested checking the scope scales using a battery.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 12, 2009, 04:49:56 PM

@All,
I noticed something I didn't test last night, so before I change the toroids I am using I want to report this.
This orphaned wire may be causing it I don't know.

It is repeatable.

Amps draw in the BJTL place on the second tier can have parallel lights and the addition of those lights REDUCES the draw. It does this by 1 milliAmp per led. Also, bye the way, the light here in this BJTL spot is great - very bright and does not diminish with the addition of more in || with it.

Whereas the ones on the second tier secondary draw more microAmps with each additional one added.
Also, all the ones on the second tier secondary are quite dim.
This would be expected in a normal ckt, but is only true on some jtc's . (I believe those times are when there is a wide difference between the number of primary winds and secondary. not sure.)

I think it is especially odd that there is big reduction -mA- with || leds in the BJTL spot and small increase -uA- in the secondary.

Has anybody else noticed this in their regular jtc's?
There are several people who have found better results using parallel lights in the BJTL spot.
Have any of you also managed to wrap a secondary and get it to light?
If you have, what is the behavior of the amps draw with the addition of the lights in the different places?
Either or both. Any info on this is valuable.

This may shed light ;) on some of our outstanding questions.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 12, 2009, 05:05:46 PM

Quote from: xee2 on April 12, 2009, 04:11:57 PM
@ jeanna

The 10x probe means that the voltage at the tip of the probe is 10 times larger than what goes to your scope. Therefore you need to multiply the scope reading by 10 to get the voltage at the probe tip. Some scopes will sense what probe is set to and automatically adjust the value displayed so that no multiplication or division is needed. Sometimes probes are marked divide by 10 instead of 10X, but both probes do the same thing - it is very confussing but that is the way it is. That is why I suggested checking the scope scales using a battery.

Hi xee2,

I must correct this first. It is x1 and x10. I probably wrote it backwards.

This one does not sense it. I must do it myself.
I just don't think I am ever getting over a thousand volts! Or even 735 volts. I am sure that is 73.5 volts. And, in fact this is what drove me to get out that full wave bridge and fill a cap.
And, darn, the cap didn't agree with the scope or the dmm. I believe the cap. It could not be getting more than what is going in... and, yes, I always short it first.

I wish I could figure out how to get this thing to show me the dc of a battery. It is available, but I can't figure what series of buttons to push to get that screen up. There is a real estate problem on the screen. It is 2 inches tall by 3 inches wide and can only show so much, as you can imagine.
I am blaming the terse manual for my difficulty.

I have not been ignoring your suggestion. I just haven't been able to get the thing to show the dc.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 12, 2009, 05:19:55 PM

@ jeanna

I agree with your reasoning and you have more information than any of us, so if anyone is correct I would assume it is you. But what you are reporting seems strange. Most scopes have a knob that can be set to AC or DC input. But since your scope is digital this is probably set in a menu somewhere. Once you find where to set it. Then you can just set the sweep to its slowest rate and then intermittently touch the probes to the battery terminals and the trace should bounce up and down as you do this. I don't know what else I can say that might be helpful. Good luck.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 12, 2009, 06:37:01 PM

OK everyone,

Check THIS out:

I put in another jtc to test and while fiddling the second tier secondary came out of its place in the neg side of the LEDs. As I was trying to return it to its slot my hand slipped!! :o and the wire hit the negative side of the battery rail. all the lights got bright. the amps draw lowered and now, we are in business.

I made a preliminary drawing. As you can see there are 8 lights now, 4 in the bjtl spot and 4 in the secondary spot all in the second tier. OMG. this is too cool. I put this secondary in the battery rails yesterday but not before the orphaned jt wire came out. IT as you can see because it is attached to the yellow clip is in the neg of the leds that are also connectedon their pos side to the one legged secondary.

ooo too cool.

jeanna

EDIT
I am sorry. I just realized the leds were the other way around. I hope I made all the changes to the above text correctly and here is the new pic with drawing.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 12, 2009, 07:26:12 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 12, 2009, 03:20:55 PM
@theNOP,
I did mean divide. That is about the only thing that is clear in my manual. ... I think...

on 1x you are actualy taking measurements through a 1 mega ohms resistor.
on 10x, you are taking measurements through a 9 mega ohms resistor.

the probe is dividing by 10, so, you must multiply your reading by 10 when the probe is set on 10x.

you say the reading at cap is higher then what the scope show.
altho it might be possible, it is usually just a matter of sweep resolutions.
i mean, getting spikes of 735 volts are quite posible, but since they occure very very fast, they might not be visible on the 1ms setting but might show on the 1u or lower.

as for reading DC(not pulsed) with your scope.
since the display is not really high, it is really difficul to see the trace position change.
you can only see the equivalent of 2 divisions for each polarities and can't clearly see dc bias, i think.
so it leave you to rely solely on the digits volts reading.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 12, 2009, 08:44:35 PM

theNOP,
You and xee2 know a great deal more than I am ever likely to know about scopes. I may have been wrong when I said x1 and x10 so and so.

I usually have the scope and probe set to x1 with volts per division at about 4 or 8v until the waves go off the screen and I quickly push x10 button on the meter. I don't have anything going at the moment to make sure I am not saying it wrong. The thing is that it is pretty clear at the time, I think anyway, and when I look at the full range that is possible in total volts per division clues and that sort of thing.

Also, right now, what I am doing is taking my attention away from the waves. And, I can't find a good place to measure much.

I still take measurements, but yesterday and today they were in the 1.2v-3.6v range.

I appreciate your help. I actually think I need to talk to the help desk at velleman. This is just another story of the missing manual except they printed one.

thank you and xee2,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on April 12, 2009, 08:50:36 PM

I have decided that I am not likely to find the kinds of toroids that I will need.

I have been looking into making some toroids myself.

I thought I would post a few things that might be of interest to someone here.

On this page
http://www.lessemf.com/faq-shie.html#Lead-Copper

under

Why can't I just use lead or copper or aluminum foil for magnetic shielding?

There is a partial list of permeability's
It is interesting that Nickel is half the permeability of iron .
Cobalt is not listed but I believe it is similar to Nickel

There are some interesting products on this site .
on this page
http://www.lessemf.com/mag-shld.html
There is a wide range of high permeability products.
Small strips of the foils or tapes could change a low permeability toroid into a much higher permeability toroid
I tried a toroid made of VCR tape . I did get a JT to run with it ........but the flux didn';t seem to travel around the whole toroid ...I could not get a secondary to work at all . I am thinking that a little high permeability tape or ribbon might fix this problem .

On that page is something I have heard about but not found before .
METGLASÂ® MAGNETIC SHIELDING FILM
imagine a JT made with about a pound of this stuff :)

A little further down the page ......something that might be very handy
MuMETALÂ® WIRE
I am planning on gettins some of this later just to test some theorys I have .

I am currently looking for a source of powdered nickel. I am thinking it might be about the right permeability to start with ...... from there I can add lower permeability stuff or higher ....depending on the application .

I am thinking that raising the permeability of the toroid with a central core that is high permeability like Mu wire is the way to go .

I hope to test what could be a variable permeability toroid .
I am thinking that the secondary may need a different effective permeability for best results .
If a medium permeability toroid was made by using a low permeability body with a core made with something like Mu wire .......
IF the strands of Mu wire were closer to the surface the effective permeability of that area would go up .
This effect might be easiest to do with one of the high permeability foils.
If a banana shaped core was made then wrapped with foil ...... and the ends twisted as thin as possible ..... if the ends were connected and then the whole thing inserted into a mold and filled with a low permeability mix ..... it should make a toroid with 2 very different permeability's ( assuming the foil is thick enough to carry the flux all the way around the toroid )

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 12, 2009, 09:24:00 PM

@all

I have been surviving lately and could not be as usual. But here I am again and with a question to @mk1 or anyone that can answer it.

How do i check the resistance used by the pot on the circuit?

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 12, 2009, 09:41:10 PM

@Mk1,
I took a look at this video on U Tube, wasnt this amazing, as the magnet was applied, the motor slowed and the AMPs went up
I gess this relates to the effect we see as a battery discharges, as the voltage gets lower and lower, the Amps go up to compensate for less voltage.

Reversed the Magnet and the AMPs fell and the motor speed up.
Here we see the oppersate, the same effect can be seen if the voltage is rased over the supplied battery voltage, ie: 12v batt add 1 wet cell =14v, the Amps go down as the "over volts" are above what is required to drive the dc motor.

I used to see special batteries made for the oldre VW beetles, they had a 6v system, when the extra cell was added, the lights improoved to no end, the starter motor worked real good, just had to tweak the generator to give a little more output.

Now, what would happen it the iron laminations which this transformer was wound with were "Pre magnetised" that would be interresting, if the iron was magnetised the wrong way, the output would always struggle, if magnetised the other way, the output would be "always enhansed".

jim

Good find this one.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 12, 2009, 09:47:40 PM

Hi Jesus,
I am not sure I understand your question. It is just the same as measuring the resistance with a static resistor, except the legs are usually harder to see and reach.

There are usually 3 legs... I don't think I understand your question. please ask it again.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 12, 2009, 10:02:55 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 12, 2009, 09:47:40 PM
Hi Jesus,
I am not sure I understand your question. It is just the same as measuring the resistance with a static resistor, except the legs are usually harder to see and reach.

There are usually 3 legs... I don't think I understand your question. please ask it again.

jeanna

@lady jeanna

If you read the @mk1 explanation on the posted graphic composition. He says that every time he changes the JT number of turns he also tune the base resitor, usually using a 1k pot trying tp get the highest voltage on the voltmeter. Keeping the voltage data and resistance at the base by checking the resistance used by the pot in the circuit.

Then my question is how do I check the resistance used by the pot in the circuit?

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 12, 2009, 10:09:08 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 12, 2009, 08:44:35 PM
... I quickly push x10 button on the meter.

then your scope know on what scale you are on, so the values are always displayed accordingly.
i just wanted to make sure.

your's is unlike most probes that have that switch on the probe itself
with most of those probes, the scope is not aware of the resistor change.

Quote from: resonanceman on April 12, 2009, 08:50:36 PM
Why can't I just use lead or copper or aluminum foil for magnetic shielding?

because, nothing known can shield a magnetic field.
we can only redirect the lines of force.

the problem with cores is the frequency.
if the currents you try to push in them is AC, then hysteresis is also a problem.

less iron = need higher frequencies to compensate for poor coupling.
higher frequecies mean more magnetic flux change per second this compensate for the poor coupling.

more iron = more eddy currents loss at higher frequencies, so it call for special cores construction.
steel insulated wire cores are the best, the smaller the wire the better it is.
the eddy current loss is in function of the square of the frequency and inverse square of the material thickness.
the higher the frequency and/or the thicker the core material(non insulated), the more eddy currents loss you get.

all max frequency for materials, you might find on the net, are for AC and are based on hysteresis limitations, not on eddy currents loss.

the JT play with plused DC, not AC, so hysteresis is a lesser problem.

METGLAS has a really low hysteresis curve, meanning it can work at very high frequencies, but its saturation point is really low( .2 tesla, iron is 2 tesla).

industries do not use steel wires for cores due to contruction cost.
they are making tradeoff between $$$ and efficientcy.

MuMETALÂ® WIRE is interesting indeed.

@all
why be affraid of eddy currents when your jt is not running at very high frequency ????

garden wire cores are cheap when you don't count the time it take to make. ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 12, 2009, 10:14:04 PM

@jesus

A pot has 3 leg , you will need to use leg 1 and 2 or 2 and 3 , you can test any pot for overall value between leg 1 and 3 , now if you use 1 and 2 take the resistance reading between 1and 2 , if you use 2 and 3 then check resistance between those two.

You find first the spot where the voltage for the pickup coil is at his highest .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 12, 2009, 10:18:57 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on April 12, 2009, 09:24:00 PM
How do i check the resistance used by the pot on the circuit?

the best way is to take it out of the circuit then measure it.

an other way is to go with ohms law, but the spikes might get in the way.
R = V / I

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 12, 2009, 10:28:31 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on April 12, 2009, 10:02:55 PM
@lady jeanna

If you read the @mk1 explanation on the posted graphic composition. He says that every time he changes the JT number of turns he also tune the base resitor, usually using a 1k pot trying tp get the highest voltage on the voltmeter. Keeping the voltage data and resistance at the base by checking the resistance used by the pot in the circuit.

Then my qestion is how do I check the resistance used by the pot in the circuit?

Jesus

@Jesus,
I think what he means by this is that he changes the resistance until he gets the highest rectified voltage from the secondary. Then he pulls out the battery and checks what the resistance is that he has just turned the pot to, then he writes it down and then puts it all back together and takes the next step.

I have not yet been able to make myself take all those steps. I am sure he is right and I should.
For now, My MK1 and MK2 remain un-tuned.

I just used the same numbers of winds that he used and saw that the way he makes these MK's is far better than anything I have made in all the other ways I have tried.
Even untuned, these are way better.

If I have still not answered your question, please try again.

@the NOP

Quotethen your scope know on what scale you are on, so the values are always displayed accordingly.
i just wanted to make sure.

I have a button for x1 and x10. It toggles between the 2 levels. It reads volts as though it knew, but it does not. I need to divide by 10 when I am on the x10 level unless the probe switch is also switched.
I am sure you have a better understanding than I have.
For now, I am muddling through. I am looking at the "pretty" wave forms, but do not really know what I am seeing. Like a child, I think.

thanks for your help,

jeanna

@theNOP,
I object. If you use ohms law you are making assumptions that may keep you from finding the truth.
Measurement is the only way for an experimenter.
MHO

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 12, 2009, 10:32:58 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on April 12, 2009, 10:14:04 PM
@jesus

A pot has 3 leg , you will need to use leg 1 and 2 or 2 and 3 , you can test any pot for overall value between leg 1 and 3 , now if you use 1 and 2 take the resistance reading between 1and 2 , if you use 2 and 3 then check resistance between those two.

You find first the spot where the voltage for the pickup coil is at his highest .

Mark

Quote from: TheNOP on April 12, 2009, 10:18:57 PM
the best way is to take it out of the circuit then measure it.

an other way is to go with ohms law, but the spikes might get in the way.
R = V / I

Thank you @mk1, thank you @thenop.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 12, 2009, 10:34:59 PM

Thank you @jeanna

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 12, 2009, 11:21:29 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 12, 2009, 10:28:31 PM
I have a button for x1 and x10. It toggles between the 2 levels. It reads volts as though it knew, but it does not. I need to divide by 10 when I am on the x10 level unless the probe switch is also switched.

that is what i meant, and it show you also understand what is happening.

your scope don't know when the probe is at 1x nor when it is at 10x unless you tell it to your scope.
or it has an other 10 times divider in series with your probe at the push on a button.

meanning the 10x button is either to tell the scope the probe is set at 10x, or it is an other 9 meg ohms resistor in series with the 1 meg or 9 meg resistor of the probe.

that is why xee2 asked you to test with a know fixed supply.

Quote from: jeanna on April 12, 2009, 10:28:31 PM
I object. If you use ohms law you are making assumptions that may keep you from finding the truth.
Measurement is the only way for an experimenter.
MHO

:)
i make no assomptions when using ohms law, voltage and currents are also measurements.
all depend on the accuracy of those measurements.
that is why i sayed "the best way is to remove then measure the resistance" ;)

i perfectly know that Ohms law does not hold all the time, that it is a law of specific case.
but in the case of the above measurements, the way they are done, it does apply.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 13, 2009, 12:10:59 AM

OK theNOP or xee2 or other scopies,

I have another question about where to put probes. I have this circuit. It is a complicated loop going from the second tier toroidal secondary through its own toroid and around to the first tier secondary. This has 2 spots with leds brightly shining all in parallel with each other. I just put the probes on the second tier secondary and the orphaned wire that is connected to one parallel array of leds. I read 4.11 volts.
I did not disconnect anything so like a dmm, it was reading across the ... whole thing from one end of the secondary to one wire of the toroid the secondary is wrapped around. I get the same number if I put the probe on the positive incoming wire of the first tier secondary.

My question is, if this is a kosher way to measure with a scope. I got a waveform that is very complex and repeats, but I am not sure.
I think it is reading the whole second tier along with the secondary from the first tier. of course there are also 8 leds in there that I did not remove.

I am comparing this to how you measure across a resistor. Everything is connected as is and undisturbed.

thank you,

jeanna

This schematic may help.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 13, 2009, 12:41:51 AM

the only time it is not safe for your equipements are when you are trying to measure something bigger then the capability of that equipment.
you will shurely blow a fuse or fry your equipment if it ever happen.

and other is when the scale your equipment is set at is too low for the voltage you try to read, it might blow a fuse or blow a network resistor.
always make shure you choose the correct scale before applying the probe.

if you don't know what voltage to expect.
first ask yourself if it will be within the equipment maximum capability.

if yes, start at the highest scale. always start at the highest scale when unshure.

if no, try to estimate the maximum voltage you think you might get.
ex: 1 000,10 000, 35 000 volts in case of a tv flyback transformer
then calculate the minimum resistor values you should put in series with your probe to be safe.
always go for the highest resistance and lower it if you can't measure anything.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 13, 2009, 12:53:37 AM

Thanks theNOP,

I found I was doing that after I had checked with filling the cap. I am glad to know this is how to do this.

I will continue to use the cap first with a new toroid. I was worried about unexpectedly high results hurting the scope before I learn how to use it.

Thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dog812 on April 13, 2009, 12:54:56 AM

Where is the best place to get torrids online?
I get mine from here locally, but i dont know if there prices are very good? http://rpelectronics.com Like $7 for 3..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 13, 2009, 01:11:32 AM

@ Jeanna,

The question on the whereabouts to place your probes, I you are referring to circuir "orphanwithlights.jpg" which I think you are.

Looking at the right hand part of the diagram, one would place the clip to the earth being the neg battery side, probe could be placed anywhere else.
That said, we now tackle the substance of your question, relating to 2nd Tier.

OK, now for placing probes on the 2nd Tier side.
This side of the circuit is "floating" in regards to the 1st tier, as there is no actual physical electrical wire connection to it.
Any measurements will not be accurate, if you leave your earth cro clip, on the 1st tier.
.
So you need to establish a new "terminal point" to make your measurements, try cliping the probes earth lead to the (-) as seen which feeds the 2nd Tier circuit. make all your measurements from this "point".

Looking again at you new circuit you have two DC outputs being made from your 2nd Teir, The 1st output, is derived from the 2nd Torid itself, driving the single LED, the 2nd output, is derived from the 2nd secondary which is driving the 2 LEDs as seen.

So if you clip the probe earth end to the Negative, from your 1st Torid secondary output, as the base point to take readings, you should have success.

@all
I stayed up half the night watching the treddley bike race in France, it was the "cobblestones" event.
Well, this was exciting, sure was glad I wasnt a rider, those roads were extreamly bumpy, there were several bike crashes, the public in one town fell onto the track as bikes were going past, one camera bike collided with a narrow bridge, Giant figureines, lovely scenery, wild narrow streets, lots of history, yep full of surprises.

Next big event is the "Tour De France" I'm gona hook up my projection TV for that one.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 13, 2009, 01:18:05 AM

Quote from: dog812 on April 13, 2009, 12:54:56 AM
Where is the best place to get torrids online?
I get mine from here locally, but i dont know if there prices are very good? http://rpelectronics.com Like $7 for 3..

Electronics goldmine.

http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/searchprods.asp

Five 1" dia. for $1. You can't beat that. I hope this helps.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 13, 2009, 01:44:20 AM

Quote from: electricme on April 13, 2009, 01:11:32 AM
The question on the whereabouts to place your probes, I you are referring to circuir "orphanwithlights.jpg" which I think you are.

Looking at the right hand part of the diagram, one would place the clip to the earth being the neg battery side, probe could be placed anywhere else.
That said, we now tackle the substance of your question, relating to 2nd Tier.

OK, now for placing probes on the 2nd Tier side.
This side of the circuit is "floating" in regards to the 1st tier, as there is no actual physical electrical wire connection to it.
Any measurements will not be accurate, if you leave your earth cro clip, on the 1st tier.
.
So you need to establish a new "terminal point" to make your measurements, try cliping the probes earth lead to the (-) as seen which feeds the 2nd Tier circuit. make all your measurements from this "point".

Looking again at you new circuit you have two DC outputs being made from your 2nd Teir, The 1st output, is derived from the 2nd Torid itself, driving the single LED, the 2nd output, is derived from the 2nd secondary which is driving the 2 LEDs as seen.

So if you clip the probe earth end to the Negative, from your 1st Torid secondary output, as the base point to take readings, you should have success.

the accuracy of the measurements will be as accurate as the accuracy of your equipment, no matter where you put the probe.
it could be meanningless measurements in some cases, but that have nothing to do with the accuracy.

it all depends on what you are trying to find.
you can try to put a led(s) from the - side of the battery and the second jt pickup coils if you want.
you are only limited by your imagination.

one thing jeanna could measure is the voltage difference between where she put one set of led(s) and the other set.
trying to find witch place is best and if placing a bypass wire help either set.
if yes, what are the trade off.

because trade off there will be.
it is nature's ways, there are always trade off.
the question is: are those trade off are in your favor...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 13, 2009, 01:53:42 AM

Quote from: electricme on April 13, 2009, 01:11:32 AM

So you need to establish a new "terminal point" to make your measurements, try cliping the probes earth lead to the (-) as seen which feeds the 2nd Tier circuit. make all your measurements from this "point".

Looking again at you new circuit you have two DC outputs being made from your 2nd Teir, The 1st output, is derived from the 2nd Torid itself, driving the single LED, the 2nd output, is derived from the 2nd secondary which is driving the 2 LEDs as seen.

So if you clip the probe earth end to the Negative, from your 1st Torid secondary output, as the base point to take readings, you should have success.

Excellent Jim,

I have been wanting to measure this and measure it with out the lights. Many times the lights take a great deal of what looked like power from the secondary. One light might take the power down by 10 or more volts.

I put the clip on the neg incoming from the first tier secondary and then turned on the scope.

I assume this is how it sets up that baseline for all subsequent tests. Please correct me if that is wrong.

Then I looked at a bunch of places. They were all between 4.62v and 6,93v.

But most interesting to me was between the bjt led and the baseline with and without lights.
So, with all 8 lights the voltage here was 4.62v.

With all lights removed except one in each parallel row, the reading was 6.42v

I can remove the last light from the secondary of this second tier, and the voltage like this is 6.93v but the led must stay in the bjt led place.
If I short that line with a jumper or a 4001 diode the voltage goes out.

Thank you. This helps me complete the tests on this one.

jeanna

edit.

Quoteone thing jeanna could measure is the voltage difference between where she put one set of led(s) and the other set.
trying to find witch place is best and if placing a bypass wire help either set.

I need to check those places in the morning. I did get 8.73 between the 2sides of the secondary leads with the lights removed

And the bypass wire is what the orphaned wire that used to go to the base of the transistor does. the magic, if you will.
Thanks too theNOP

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 13, 2009, 02:18:24 AM

@ All:

I noticed earlier today that Stefan has moved this topic, and the diagrams topic to our own Joule Thief Heading in the forum. I just wanted to comment that I think this is a good thing and I appreciate Stefan doing this for us. Thanks again for everyone's hard work and inspirational posts. Also, thank you Stefan.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 13, 2009, 02:25:01 AM

@ALL

I have an idea, which I passed by Bill, as he is moderator, he thinks it is cool, but asked me to pass it by everyone here first to get everyones opinion first.

Those who have been following this thread have lamented at times (me also) the lack of an Index about all the major posts. :)

So I am willing to pop my hand up and make a index, which could be placed at a significant area on the forum, say at the 500th post.

To do this, I would have to "reserve all the pages" in Post 500, buy presenting some blank posts with the words RESERVED for FORUM INDEX ;D

The posts would continue onward from 501.

If everyone is all in one mind and thinks this is OK. Please let us know. :)

We are in the 490's now so P500 willl have to be reserved very soon.

Bill as moderator said to me, he will remove the RESERVED pages to insert the INDEX when it is ready.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 13, 2009, 03:01:44 AM

@electricme and Pirate88179
if for whatever reasons the number of posts per page change, it will have to be changed back again.

instead
what if a new tread, like the schematic one, was done in place ?
with only links in it ?
with short descriptions ?
what is important and what is not ?

it kinda duplicate the schematic/photo tread tho.
if you look at it, each posts has the cross reference link to the initial tread post.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PowerJunkie on April 13, 2009, 03:02:17 AM

Hello everybody,

I made my first Joule Thief yesterday and having a bit of trouble. I made it according to the guide on YouTube by the Make Podcast (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTAqGKt64WM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTAqGKt64WM)) as it looked pretty simple! I've made a 1/2" ferrite toroid with about 24 loops of thin copper wire. I am using a 2N3904 transistor. I tried out a AAA and AA (separately) battery and it worked great! I read the comments and saw that Colin Mitchell from TalkingElectronics explained how to improve upon it. I connected the feedback winding lead (that used to be connected to the end of the resistor, as shown in the YouTube video) directly into the Base [Middle Lead] of the Transistor and connected the resistor between the "Feedback winding" lead and the other lead that acts as the positive supply. I have used both a 1,000ohm and 20ohm resistor as experimentation. Here's the schematic of the "improvements" I did, so you understand what I did: http://www.instructables.com/files/deriv/F2I/ZRXQ/FR0ZHOS5/F2IZRXQFR0ZHOS5.MEDIUM.jpg

I tried it and it worked great! It was now twice as bright than it was when I first made it according to the video. I have tried out both a 2.1V Green LED and 3.6V Super Bright White LED and they're bright as heck when connected to a AAA or AA battery! Now, here come's the problem! I'm making this to use as an "idiot light" for a couple of engine sensors in my engine compartment. I've tried connecting my Joule Thief to multiple sensors that puts out around 2.0 V and 2.5 V. My problem is that the darn LED doesn't light up! Nothing at all. Now, if I remove the resistor completely that's bridged between the "Feedback winding" lead, then it lights up so darn DIM that you'll have to put your eyeball up to it in a pitch black moonless night to see a hint of light glowing from within. This is while using the 2.1V Green LED OR the 3.6V Super Bright White LED. Yet, take it off and connect it to a AA battery (with OR without the resistor bridged, it doesn't seem to matter with a battery!) then it works beautifully - the white LED is so bright that it blinds you!

Can anyone give me any idea's why it's not working with the vehicle, but works with a AA battery that's 1V less? I can even use a nearly-dead AA battery that's putting out 0.9V and it's 5,000 times brighter than it is on the vehicle. I have ensured that it's completely grounded in the vehicle, as well. I've also tried connecting a 22N capacitor from the feedback winding lead to the negative lead, but it doesn't seem to change a thing. One thing to note is that I connected the raw leads of the 2.1V Green LED (just the LED only, no Joule Thief or anything) to the engine sensors and the LED lit up just fine. It wasn't as bright as it is on a Joule Thief with a AA battery, but it definitely lit up!

I'm ready to chuck this damn thing in the trash bin since I've spent around MORE than 15 hours in the last 3 days fooling around with this thing trying to figure it out! This is COMPLETELY foreign to me (I've never done any electronics before) but I'm a quick learner!

I really need to get this to work, so ANY help, drawings or general ideas at all would be HIGHLY appreciated!

Thanks so much!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 13, 2009, 03:11:52 AM

Well, it appears as if we can post our own topics in this forums. Why not do so.

Take everyone's different winding techniques for example? ...or setups using multiple toroids?

Or fluorescents?

Or High voltage?

or General questions?

Or the JTC Bedini or JTC pulsemotors, etc.

Start your own related thread. ...Maybe at the 500th page, the thread should be locked for referencing purposes only.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 13, 2009, 03:26:46 AM

@ Jim:

TheNop raises a good issue I did not think about. If we shift to 15 posts per page, or 5, or whatever, it will no longer be page 500. Maybe we need to think about this or, as Jadaro says, if someone wants to make an index page, maybe they can start another topic? I don't really know but, this is why I suggested running it by the good folks on here. If we all put our minds together, I am sure we can come up with something workable.

Hey, I just had an idea Jim, if you make an index, I can insert it into the first post on the diagram topic. I can erase what I posted on the first post and put in the index. Maybe this is a better way to go?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 13, 2009, 03:30:05 AM

Quote from: PowerJunkie on April 13, 2009, 03:02:17 AM
Hello everybody,

I made my first Joule Thief yesterday and having a bit of trouble. I made it according to the guide on YouTube by the Make Podcast (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTAqGKt64WM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTAqGKt64WM)) as it looked pretty simple! I've made a 1/2" ferrite toroid with about 24 loops of thin copper wire. I am using a 2N3904 transistor. I tried out a AAA and AA (separately) battery and it worked great! I read the comments and saw that Colin Mitchell from TalkingElectronics explained how to improve upon it. I connected the feedback winding lead (that used to be connected to the end of the resistor, as shown in the YouTube video) directly into the Base [Middle Lead] of the Transistor and connected the resistor between the "Feedback winding" lead and the other lead that acts as the positive supply. I have used both a 1,000ohm and 20ohm resistor as experimentation.

I tried it and it worked great! It was now twice as bright than it was when I first made it according to the video. I have tried out both a 2.1V Green LED and 3.6V Super Bright White LED and they're bright as heck when connected to a AAA or AA battery! Now, here come's the problem! I'm making this to use as an "idiot light" for a couple of engine sensors in my engine compartment. I've tried connecting my Joule Thief to multiple sensors that puts out around 2.0 V and 2.5 V. My problem is that the darn LED doesn't light up! Nothing at all. Now, if I remove the resistor completely that's bridged between the "Feedback winding" lead, then it lights up so darn DIM that you'll have to put your eyeball up to it in a pitch black moonless night to see a hint of light glowing from within. This is while using the 2.1V Green LED OR the 3.6V Super Bright White LED. Yet, take it off and connect it to a AA battery (with OR without the resistor bridged, it doesn't seem to matter with a battery!) then it works beautifully - the white LED is so bright that it blinds you!

Can anyone give me any idea's why it's not working with the vehicle, but works with a AA battery that's 1V less? I can even use a nearly-dead AA battery that's putting out 0.9V and it's 5,000 times brighter than it is on the vehicle. I have ensured that it's completely grounded in the vehicle, as well. I've also tried connecting a 22N capacitor from the feedback winding lead to the negative lead, but it doesn't seem to change a thing. One thing to note is that I connected the raw leads of the 2.1V Green LED (just the LED only, no Joule Thief or anything) to the engine sensors and the LED lit up just fine. It wasn't as bright as it is on a Joule Thief with a AA battery, but it definitely lit up!

I'm ready to chuck this damn thing in the trash bin since I've spent around MORE than 15 hours in the last 3 days fooling around with this thing trying to figure it out! This is COMPLETELY foreign to me (I've never done any electronics before) but I'm a quick learner!

I really need to get this to work, so ANY help, drawings or general ideas at all would be HIGHLY appreciated!

Thanks so much!

Well, there are basically three things to make sure of:

The shorter winding goes to the base, and can be resisted at the base, or at the positive terminal.

The windings should be opposite flowing ..this can be a tough spot for some people. If you were to wind them the same way around the mass of the toroid, then they would essentially flow the same way if they were connected ....

these coils need to be put in the circuit so that the flow of one opposes the flow of another. A toroid isn't always the best example of how to wind a transformer. consider a bar, and say you were to wrap two wires around it at the same time, and when you start, you have a yellow and a green wire on the inside, and when you finish you have yellow and green on the outside ....green is on path yellow is another.

putting the green path on the inside connecting it to the positive terminal and the green on the outside connected to the collector. now, the yellow on the outside must now connect to the resistor which is connected to the positive terminal and the yellow on the inside must connect to the base of the transistor.

there must be a capacitor connector from the emitter to the end of the resistor where the yellow coil starts.

- - - - -
All that you need is a twisted pair of wires, you do not need a toroid. simply get a twisted pair, connecting one wire from start end to positive, and its other end to collector, now at the end of the twisted pair, connect the free wire to the resistor and the other end to the base. Here is an image of this, here is a schematic.

The third schematic is both npn and pnp, the one on the bottom is the normal mode, the dots on the coils represent the opposite directions that the coil have to be put in.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 13, 2009, 03:30:43 AM

@PowerJunkie
hi
and welcome

what are the sensors you are talking about ?
i know what engine sensors are, but just to make shure we are talking of the same thing.
they might not be what you think they are.

can they provide at least 10 miliamps ?

you say they provide 2 volts, is that AC, DC or plused DC ?

i would not recommand to anyone to connect a jt to any car engine sensors.
it would be the best way to create unexpected problems.
but that depends on what exactly you are calling sensors.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 13, 2009, 03:46:43 AM

@PowerJunkie

the best way to connect your jts in a car would be to make a 1.2 volts power supply for them.
it is really easy to do one, you can search the internet for schematic.

use a LM317 or a LM337 regulator, a resistor or a potentiometer, a diode and 2 capacitors.
you can feed them with up to 48 volts and they give out between 1.2 and 37 volts, or 1.5 volts less then the input if the input is less then 37 volts.

the diode and one of the cap are not nescessary but they will help filter the jt's noise.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 13, 2009, 03:51:32 AM

@Pirate88179

inserting in the first post, without deleting what is currently in it, look like a good idea.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PowerJunkie on April 13, 2009, 03:56:23 AM

Thanks to the replies to both of you! I know that I made it right and wound it right since it's lighting up a 3.6V White LED from nearly dead 0.9V AA battery. The issue I'm having is that it's not lighting up when it's connected to a 2V or 2.5V power source in the engine compartment, yet works with a 0.9V AA battery. ???

The sensor voltage is a constant 2V or 2.5V DC. I'm assuming the sensors provide at least 10 mA since the 2.1V Green LED will light up if I touch the raw leads on to the wires. It lights, but it's a bit dim. Why would you not recommend connecting it to a car engine sensor? The sensors I'm trying to hook up is the Mass Air Flow and Throttle Body sensors. I'll be switching out to dual intakes (which will be including larger Mass Air Flow sensors and Throttle Body senors on each intake) and I'm making this so that I know if the secondary intake is active.

I'm pulling out my hair here since it work beautifully with a nearly-dead battery but not on the car..

Thanks again for any help!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 13, 2009, 04:08:13 AM

@Bill re Thread INDEX

I'm fine with that Bill, I've got no problems with the change, I wouldn't want you to upset the posts by inserting or removing them.

I will get back to you with this shortly.

@ PowerJunkie

Welcome to the forum.

Your request for help is OK, but no-one here as I know has ever applied the JT to any vehicles electrical system.

Now that said, dosent meen it couldn't be done, just it might not be able to be applied in the way you are trying to do.

If you are looking to attatch it to your engine sensors, then I wouldn't recommend this as at this point of time as no-one here to my knowledge has done it, and I know a slight change in voltage and current with engine management computer could enrich or lean the fuel injection, either one could clog your engine or burn it out, and I would not recommend the JT just for that reason.

But for getting more brake light output, then mabe, but as I mentioned, we have never applied it to this application.
For a start, the vehicles voltage applied to the tail lights would need to be reduced to1 volt max to take advantage of the JT output, then it would have to pass a vehicle inspection by Dept Main Roads, in your country, there would be too many leagal aspects attatched to using the JT this way.
The alternator in the car can put out up to 14.7Volts, so you would need a "regulator" to cope with this.

For instance, the LM317 voltage regulator can reduce 35v down to 1.5volts, but that could still be too high for the JT to cope with.

***EDIT ***
Theres also probably another matter of spikes, the electrical enviroment in a car is "noisy" so the JT would need a fair amount of suppression.

But I like the idea of another way the JT could be used for, full marks for that.

@ The Gadget or IST
Mabe you both or "others" might see a way the JT could be applied in a car?

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on April 13, 2009, 10:22:12 AM

Quote from: PowerJunkie on April 13, 2009, 03:56:23 AM
Thanks to the replies to both of you! I know that I made it right and wound it right since it's lighting up a 3.6V White LED from nearly dead 0.9V AA battery. The issue I'm having is that it's not lighting up when it's connected to a 2V or 2.5V power source in the engine compartment, yet works with a 0.9V AA battery. ???

The sensor voltage is a constant 2V or 2.5V DC. I'm assuming the sensors provide at least 10 mA since the 2.1V Green LED will light up if I touch the raw leads on to the wires. It lights, but it's a bit dim. Why would you not recommend connecting it to a car engine sensor? The sensors I'm trying to hook up is the Mass Air Flow and Throttle Body sensors. I'll be switching out to dual intakes (which will be including larger Mass Air Flow sensors and Throttle Body senors on each intake) and I'm making this so that I know if the secondary intake is active.

I'm pulling out my hair here since it work beautifully with a nearly-dead battery but not on the car..

Thanks again for any help!

Hi . The "Signal " line you are working with is not designed to feed voltage and is considered a "Logic " signal . I do not think it will run a Jt as it is Multiplex meaning it carries more than one signal . Chances are that it has logic or clock pulses on it . If you really want to give it a try put a small capacitor across it noting the polarity . It might smooth out the logic in this signal line a bit. and it might not . If not then you will have to use that signal to trigger another circuit with your jtr battery . I know its a little too much over the head but that signal line shows a small amount of Dc and as you can see it barely lights an led which means there is not enuff current in that line to power your current hungry Jt .. Measure the input current of your jt with an amp meter in series with your Jt and you can see how much it needs to work.. BTW you risk Blowing your computer module messing with those signal lines so please dont blame me if it blows out :) .

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tak22 on April 13, 2009, 12:36:55 PM

is this a joule thief? ;D 1,300 tubes

tak

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 13, 2009, 01:06:35 PM

Quote from: PowerJunkie on April 13, 2009, 03:56:23 AM
Why would you not recommend connecting it to a car engine sensor? The sensors I'm trying to hook up is the Mass Air Flow and Throttle Body sensors.

most sensors won't be able to do their job, the jt will cause interferences and they will stop to work.

cmos logic gates in the high state are often only disipating 1 ma

you could use 12 volts switch and 12 volts light to do the same.
but use your own pressure sensor switches and throttle switch, no matter if you are gona use a jt or not.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dog812 on April 13, 2009, 01:15:14 PM

Has anyone ever tried this circuit? Does it work better?
http://www.instructables.com/files/deriv/F2I/ZRXQ/FR0ZHOS5/F2IZRXQFR0ZHOS5.MEDIUM.jpg
Does 22n mean 22uF?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 13, 2009, 01:19:41 PM

Quote from: dog812 on April 13, 2009, 01:15:14 PM
Has anyone ever tried this circuit? Does it work better?
http://www.instructables.com/files/deriv/F2I/ZRXQ/FR0ZHOS5/F2IZRXQFR0ZHOS5.MEDIUM.jpg
Does 22n mean 22uF?

nanofarads

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 13, 2009, 01:21:50 PM

Hi All,
I must have had a bad connection yesterday. I will read today's posts in a moment, but first, I want to say The second tier bjt led is not necessary for the second tier "secondary" leds to stay on. (I had stated that it was)

I may need to re-draw the circuit. I am not sure that second tier secondary correct. It only has 1 wire from the secondary on one side of it
The other secondary wire is straight in the neg rail.
bbs

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on April 13, 2009, 01:26:24 PM

Quote from: dog812 on April 13, 2009, 01:15:14 PM
Has anyone ever tried this circuit? Does it work better?
http://www.instructables.com/files/deriv/F2I/ZRXQ/FR0ZHOS5/F2IZRXQFR0ZHOS5.MEDIUM.jpg
Does 22n mean 22uF?

yes, i have built that variation. works great.
putting the capacitor and resistor in that position allows the rail voltage to hit the feedback winding of the transformer but prevents the signal generated by the winding being lost through the resistor as happens when the resistor is right on the base of the transistor.

what happens is the circuit freq. will double (approx.) giving the led twice the pulses (approx.) and the amp draw will half (approx)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dog812 on April 13, 2009, 01:34:59 PM

So is that better? More effiecient?
What is 22n? Like if i wanted to buy it what am i looking for? 22 uF?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 13, 2009, 01:38:11 PM

Now that I have read all the posts since last night... I must agree an index is a great idea.
I think a perfect place for an index is the first post of the other thread whose name can be changed to include the word index, perhaps.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dog812 on April 13, 2009, 01:41:34 PM

I am still learning.. trying to understand this stuff..

I am still struggling reading the diagram. and figuring out what stuff is..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on April 13, 2009, 01:44:22 PM

Quote from: dog812 on April 13, 2009, 01:34:59 PM
So is that better? More effiecient?
What is 22n? Like if i wanted to buy it what am i looking for? 22 uF?

the led won't really have a noticeable change in brightness but the circuit will be more efficient, yes.
you can use a 10n also. actually the best capacitor value will sorta depend on what you choose for your resistor value.
i would say you can range the resistor from 1000ohms (sometimes written as 1K) to 2700ohms (sometimes written as 2k7) and be A OK using either a 10n or 22n capacitor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 13, 2009, 02:12:13 PM

Quote from: dog812 on April 13, 2009, 01:34:59 PM

What is 22n?

http://www.translatorscafe.com/cafe/units-converter/electrostatic-capacitance/calculator/nanofarad-%5BnF%5D-to-farad-%5BF%5D/

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 13, 2009, 02:49:53 PM

Hi everybody,

I have been unsatisfied with the schematic for the 2 tiered joule thief, so I changed it. Please look at the one below.

I think this is correctly representing what the circuit looks like.

Please note the absence of the second transistor and its base resistor.

I connect the toroid lead that ordinarily connects with the transistor base to the neg side of the column of parallel leds.

One of the secondary wires from this jt toroid is now redundant.
I connect one secondary wire to the pos of the column of leds
The other goes directly to the neg battery rail.

Of course this neg battery rail is not being fed by a battery. Instead, it is being fed by the secondary from the first jtc.

This shows where the circuit really is here.

I found 2 basic voltages.
With the probes on the pos side of things the voltage is 1.2v. On the negative side of this it is 6.4volts.
I will give more specific details on this in upcoming posts.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dog812 on April 13, 2009, 02:51:21 PM

thanks guys very helpful

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on April 13, 2009, 03:05:56 PM

hello everyone

hope everyone had a wonderfull easter weekend ...

just letting you all kno im still round ...

i will be doing some pancake tests soon.... i will use the pancakes as powerfull jt coils with the large grey toroide ... this should prove intresting ..

as well im linking a bunch of tesla pattends togather to further prove it in his own words ... ;D

the top pancake will be 1 pulse and the bottom will be the second ... this is an oreo cookie stack ;) 8)

and the 2 pancakes will be the same size and gage 4 turns ... 6' 14 ga bifillar

there a tonne of ways this can be configured... ferroite core is the OREO COLLECTOR

ist

building this this week

;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 13, 2009, 03:07:38 PM

@jeanna
the first jt pickup coils is ala mk way ?

i am asking because, if it is, then the red + and - does not really have a meanning since it output an ac signal.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 13, 2009, 03:42:14 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on April 13, 2009, 03:07:38 PM
@jeanna
the first jt pickup coils is ala mk way ?
i am asking because, if it is, then the red + and - does not really have a meanning since it output an ac signal.

This one is not a an MK design. It has the name "zebrak", meaning zebrawithkynar. It is the one I jammed as many turns of 30 gauge kynar through. I remember 74 turns on this secondary.... I am building up to the mk series. I want to understand the circuit part of this first using the "ordinary jtc with secondary".

I think you are correct.
The + and - have little to no meaning. BUT, it would make this schematic too hard to understand without using the usual + and - for reference.
And, I put the leads off that first tier secondary into the + and - battery rail.
---
EDIT:
I changed the color, too. I didn't realize it was still red until you mentioned it.
--
This is the differentiation place between the one + side of that first tier toroid and the - side. (This is what I want to absolutely confirm in a bit.)

The wave of this looks like tak's picture. (great pic tak22), although some of the waves go on the other polarity, most of them are on just one side.

There is a difference shown by the scope when I put the probes on what I called the + side (1.2v) and what I called the - side. (6.4v) It is a significant difference for something that is a continuous wire at that place.

I need to recheck to be absolutely sure where this so called pos and neg switch occurs. My guess is at one of the toroids, but I will say exactly in a bit. (that is, if I can ;) )

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 13, 2009, 07:54:48 PM

OK one more try for clarity.

This is a color coded schematic. I had to sort of return to the original "drawing" style to get the secondary more clear.
I also added a faint echo of the transistor and its base resistor that are now removed. I showed with colors what place a wire would have been connected in the original design...I hope.

here goes.

Let me know if it is still unclear.

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 13, 2009, 08:41:45 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 13, 2009, 07:54:48 PM
Let me know if it is still unclear.

it is clear.

what is unclear, to me, is what you are trying to achive.

don't let this disturb you tho.
i do not want to discourage you from doing whatever you want to do.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on April 14, 2009, 12:02:03 AM

jeez you guys have really been moving along with this! has anyone by chance tried a bifiliar coil similiar to the one used by tesla? tesla states that the specific design of his bifiliar coil had a "high frequency and capacitance" property going for it, supposedly it "gained" power during use. his coil used 2 seperate wires placed side by side and wound in the diagrams as a pancake coil but i think it merely used the pancake design to iliustrate the unique pattern it had. simply put take 2 wires side by side and wind them 10 turns around a torrid now connect the end wire of one of the coils to the beginning wire of the other so that each coil essentially travels the same direction down the torried then back to beginning to do it again :D i will be testing this myself soon.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 14, 2009, 12:39:44 AM

@Artic_Knight

i believe my cross winding coil is exactly that.
since you need to connect them you could also do it with one wire.

Mark

But thank for your input , it a good info.

Edit , the previous statement is not good there is a difference between the pancake and the cross winding , but i know now how to make a pancake coil pickup coil with one wire one the jt, i will test and post the steps.

Thank again Artic_Knight

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 14, 2009, 01:21:22 AM

Hi everyone,

I have been studying this new circuit all day.
I want to point out something very interesting about this 2 tier circuit.

There are 2 separate places that have output on the second tier. they are
1- the basic joule thief light place where the legs of the LEDs are at the collector and emitter of the transistor, and
2- the secondary coming off the toroid.

1--, the bjt led spot.
This no longer has a transistor driving the upper circuit and so the place becomes a bit difficult to describe.
The lead from the toroid that normally goes to the collector is still in its place and the LED is directly connected with that.
The other leg of the LED is connected to the negative battery rail .
This is placed exactly as it always is.
Many leds can run in parallel with this bjt LED with NO extra amps draw.
It is usually the brighter one of the two places.

2--, the secondary spot.
This is also not made in the usual way, because only one of the secondary wires is connected to the positive leg of the LED.
The lead from the toroid that is no longer connected to the base and base resistor is connected to the negative of this led.
(This is the one I dubbed orphaned.)

The remaining secondary lead is connected to the negative of the battery rail.

Many LEDs can also run in parallel with this spot.

As far as I can tell these are quite separate spots. The lights have different brightnesses.

They are on distinctly different parts of the circuit.
The only thing they have in common is one lead to the second tier toroid. But it is the opposite lead.
Because of the bifilar arrangement of this toroid, they should be getting their pulses at different times and from opposite directions from each other.

I took a bunch of measurements tonight. The second tier toroid stayed the same (XTREE) as did the base resistor (237ohm) on the first tier.
I tested 4 toroids on the first tier.

In every case, the amps draw was less with the second tier running than with the first tier running alone.
And in all of those I measured, the more lights that were running, the lower the amps draw.
Some of us are accustomed to this phenomenon, but it is here again.

I measured the volts with the scope.
They are never high.
Remember, the lights are in when I am measuring the volts.
This usually lowers the voltage considerably, so the true voltage is probably higher.

OK that's it for now.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on April 14, 2009, 01:46:40 AM

check this out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_AGbBsa45E

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 14, 2009, 04:54:30 AM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on April 14, 2009, 01:46:40 AM
check this out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_AGbBsa45E

most of the stuff he show is about capacitive coupling at high frequency.
"high" here is relative.

what do you think pc board makers are up against.
at 100 mhz, even 2 traces on a mboard can couples just by being side by side.
carefull layout must be done when creating those board.

you can achive the same thing at any frequencies with capacitors.

i think connecting to an actual component is easyer for most peoples to see things as a closed loop circuit.

wires, "ground", yourself, etc... can become a capacitor plate and the higher the frequency, the lower the capacitance need to be for coupling effeciently.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 14, 2009, 11:40:40 AM

@all

I just made a drawing of artic knight idea , i just made it of one wire all credit goes to Artic.

It has not been tested yet.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on April 14, 2009, 02:33:09 PM

nice work mk1!!

i cant wate to build this guy 8) :o

looks like it is self induceing ;D

good old otto test with a core ... wow

amazing design !!!!!

!ST...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 14, 2009, 02:48:38 PM

@jeanna
you seem amaized that the currents goes down when more leds are added.

take a few resistors and a power source.

put one resistor and measure the currents
add an other resistor in series, measure the current again
add a third resistor in series, measure the current again.

what conclusion can you make from that experiment ?

me, i came to this:
resistors in series are not current dividers
the resistors are placed in series in order to increase the resistance, therefore decrease the current in a circuit.

and if, like me, you also took voltage measurements:
resistors in series are voltage dividers
the current is the same in all resistors connected in series.
the same current flows through each series resistor.

with this experiment, you have prouved Ohms law.

the same can be done to explain the load/no-load currents behaviors.
your experiments with transformers, will bring you to Faraday's, Maxwell's, Lenz's, AmpÃ¨re's and Lorentz's finding on induction.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 14, 2009, 03:50:58 PM

Well, theNOP,

I am unable to talk (let alone argue) theory with you or anyone else.

I do not believe the amps draw on a circuit is lower with 3 resistors in parallel than one resistor in line. The volts across those resistors will drop. I remember that from the beginning DC currents book I borrowed from someone a while back.

In fact, I was under the impression that the resistors value would add up to the same amount as the one when more were added in parallel to this. Using E=IR the lower the volts value passing through each resistor, the more amps draw.

I think this how house lighting is set up. All the plugs in your house are in parallel to the trunk line and as you add resistors more amps are drawn into use and they have a way to bill you.

I could be so totally wrong about this that it would be silly to even talk about it. It is how I thought things were. That is all. I am new to this subject, and easily confused. You already know that.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 14, 2009, 03:58:32 PM

Hi everyone,

I wrote this little description of how to make a 2 tiered joule thief circuit.
It it simple for anyone who has made a regular one.
It is especially easy to make this on a breadboard.

So for anyone who wants to see what this is doing,
and maybe help figure out what it is doing,
here:

I will also repost the drawing.

=====
Make 2 separate joule thief circuits.

Make them out of similar components and sizes, turns, number of secondary winds etc.

Test each one separately for amps draw with and without a LED in the BJTL spot.
Leave the BJT LED in place.

On both circuits, fix a good wire to the ends of the secondary.

Decide which will be tier 2. NOW, Remove the BJT LED from tier 1.

On tier 2, find a comfortable spot to put the secondary for LEDs
Put one secondary wire into each row.
Place 1 LED in parallel into this spot.
(Now, tier 2 has 2 LEDs, one in the usual place, and one in this secondary spot.)

Using the secondary wires from tier 1, fire up tier 2 by placing one secondary wire in the + and - of the second tier battery rail.

Go ahead and turn the circuit on with the basic battery feeding into tier 1.
Notice the light.
There may be just barely a dim spot of light in one or there may not be any. You could adjust the base resistor, but don't bother yet. Don't worry for now.

Remove the tier 2 transistor and resistor.
Nothing will change.
Take the toroid lead that used to be in line with the base resistor, and jumper it to the negative leg of the LED in the secondary spot.
And move the secondary lead from the same spot (negative lead of the LEDs) and now place it into the negative battery rail. (second tier still)
Kaboom, the lights will get bright. watch your eyes!
====
Next time you won't need to go through all the extra steps. It is better this way for the first time. OK?

jeanna

---
After rechecking I must report that I burned out my battery holder while using this circuit last night.
The connector on the outside of the neg black connection is gone with a little discoloration.
The battery is OK and the spring on the neg inside across to the end of the red pos wire is also fine.
Just the outside of the neg side.

I do not know what this means, but please do not walk away with this plugged together until we figure this out.
j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 14, 2009, 07:09:51 PM

you are right about resistors in parallel.
they are current dividers.
voltage stay the same across each one.
currents goes up each time you add a resistor.

my example was not to tell you how your circuit work.
it was merely an example to let you see such a currents behavior is possible.
it is not just theories, those are verifiable faqs, that is why they are call laws in the first place.

what is not obvious in my previous post is:
although you can measure a coil resistance, voltage and currents,
Ohm's law will not apply if the voltage and currents are induce with a magnetic field.
when there is induction, Ohm's law does not hold anymore.
Ohm's law still apply to circuit on both side of a transformer separately, but does not apply for what is happening between the two.

there are ways to make a transformer Acts like you see(currents wise) in your circuit.
adding more load lower the currents.

but there are also ways to make a transformer do exactly the reverse.
adding more load draw more currents.

we are not dealling with resistance then, we are dealling with impedance.

for simplicity, let say that impedance is just a variable resistor that can change with a load.
if adding a load reduce the impedance of the primary winding, more currents will flow through it.
if adding a load make the primary winding impedance higher, less currents will flow through it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 14, 2009, 07:13:52 PM

@all

I have found other toroid that give me higher voltages like the green gem , charcoal about one inch , in good supply .
I may even make kits now so no more excuses , i would not make kits unless i had good toroid , but now i do !

Some voltage , ok on a regular jt 1k base resistor 2n2222 , on 15 turns i get 64 v rectified dc , i also made a pancake pickup coil 16 turns it gives 70 volts rectified dc , leds light both ways like the cross windings , its not clear what is the best , so testing will need to be done.

Good work everyone ! page 500 is around the corner not bad for a tread that started last November !

Mark

Thanks to all of you , i have hope for the future ! He Jeanna is burning plastic , way to go Jeanna !

I am willing to send one to you koen1 !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 14, 2009, 07:27:56 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 14, 2009, 03:58:32 PM
Remove the tier 2 transistor and resistor.
Nothing will change.
Take the toroid lead that used to be in line with the base resistor, and jumper it to the negative leg of the LED in the secondary spot.
And move the secondary lead from the same spot (negative lead of the LEDs) and now place it into the negative battery rail. (second tier still)
Kaboom, the lights will get bright. watch your eyes!

and what happen when the 2 tier is not there ?
leds connected alone on the first tier.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 14, 2009, 08:32:06 PM

off cue and old, but here they are..

two very strange coreless windings. The upper is a self inductor and the lower is a linear transformer ( which works, btw, rectified 7v, not substantial, and no way to add secondaries that I can see, but I tested it none the less ).

::)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dog812 on April 14, 2009, 09:42:15 PM

I just made 2 similar JT's one basic with 6 paired windings, 2n2222 and 1K resistor.. and one using the same # of turns , same torrid size.. everything but using this schematic.. http://www.instructables.com/files/deriv/F2I/ZRXQ/FR0ZHOS5/F2IZRXQFR0ZHOS5.MEDIUM.jpg adding the 22n cap..

I didnt notice any change in brightness.. And i have no voltmeter yet.. so i dont know if it is any better.

Still searching for way to light these led's up brighter.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 14, 2009, 09:57:22 PM

@dog812

You really should get a cheep meter , mine cost 10 dollar , it will really help you !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dog812 on April 14, 2009, 09:59:25 PM

Yah makes sence.. haha.
What is a good cheap meter to get?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 14, 2009, 10:09:35 PM

@dog812

Find a cheap one for now . It should have at lest volts and amps .

You did some great work so far , i cant wait to see you with tools , you will be flying !

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on April 14, 2009, 10:09:46 PM

Quote from: dog812 on April 14, 2009, 09:42:15 PM
I just made 2 similar JT's one basic with 6 paired windings, 2n2222 and 1K resistor.. and one using the same # of turns , same torrid size.. everything but using this schematic.. http://www.instructables.com/files/deriv/F2I/ZRXQ/FR0ZHOS5/F2IZRXQFR0ZHOS5.MEDIUM.jpg adding the 22n cap..

I didnt notice any change in brightness.. And i have no voltmeter yet.. so i dont know if it is any better.

Still searching for way to light these led's up brighter.

Hi . you 2n2222 is not very good amplifier . try a 2n3904 in place of your design .

@jeanna .HI !! Very Nice out of the box thinking . I like it . It Does appear to have GAIN . Hey More leds brighter and less ma is GAIN . You can't get that with a regular one transistor Voltage amplifier circuit . look at all the experiments in this thread no way . I am waiting for some torroids of a know value and will replicate ya !! .

@Mark . Send me one or at least pm me about Em . Nice work
Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 14, 2009, 10:18:49 PM

Quote from: dog812 on April 14, 2009, 09:59:25 PM
Yah makes sence.. haha.
What is a good cheap meter to get?

dog812,
If you are in the states, allelectronics has one for $9.00.

I am glad to see you have 2 similar toroids.

Did you say you wound a secondary on your toroids?
and the leds?

I was playing with caps a little and sometimes, they really do make a nice sine wave out of a nasty bunch of spikes, but then, the voltage takes a big hit.

Do you have a pic so we can see? We like looking at people's lights! ;)

cool,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 14, 2009, 10:27:12 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on April 14, 2009, 10:09:46 PM

@jeanna .HI !! Very Nice out of the box thinking . I like it . It Does appear to have GAIN . Hey More leds brighter and less ma is GAIN . You can't get that with a regular one transistor Voltage amplifier circuit . look at all the experiments in this thread no way . I am waiting for some torroids of a know value and will replicate ya !! .

Oh wow thanks gadget,

(known value... you mean not out of the junkyard... oh. ;D )
It will be part of what I am doing, but just get a few that are the same from the goldmine, (NOT the bad blue or hi perm)
The medium is ok. That is the ferrite that was in the 1st tier that may have been responsible for melting the black plastic on the neg battery lead. They are 5/$1. The minimum order is $10, so pick up some filters and a meter or buy some leds too.

yeay!

thank you,

jeanna

EDIT the "same" part is not really necessary, but it could get really wild if you use too many different components and turns and turns ratio...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 14, 2009, 10:39:53 PM

@ All:

Yet another cheesy video I just posted on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYhNw6SuTfA

I call this one "Wilby's Bird Experiment". Here I use the standard JT circuit with ultraviolet leds attached to plastic tubing coated with black light paint powered by three supercaps energized by an AA battery via Wilby's Bird. (The legendary drinking bird) This allows me to pulse the supercaps without spending ANY energy as the bird is self-energized through evaporation. It is still running in my kitchen and I love this little bird.

Thanks again to Wilby for his very inspired idea. I still have some tweaking and adjustments to make and I am not convinced this will make the battery last longer but, it is cool and it just might.

@ Jeanna:

Very good work over there. Thanks for posting those concise instructions on your experiment.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 14, 2009, 10:50:07 PM

@pirate

So funny ! Nice video ! ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 14, 2009, 10:56:53 PM

@ Mark:

Thank you. I wish I had thought of this but the credit goes to Wilby. As long as there is water in the beaker, this thing just keeps going. My cat is not too sure about this new addition to my kitchen.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 14, 2009, 11:44:57 PM

@pirate

Just move the plates closer to the bird's head in order to charge the cap faster.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on April 14, 2009, 11:55:51 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on April 14, 2009, 10:39:53 PM
@ All:

Yet another cheesy video I just posted on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYhNw6SuTfA

I call this one "Wilby's Bird Experiment". Here I use the standard JT circuit with ultraviolet leds attached to plastic tubing coated with black light paint powered by three supercaps energized by an AA battery via Wilby's Bird. (The legendary drinking bird) This allows me to pulse the supercaps without spending ANY energy as the bird is self-energized through evaporation. It is still running in my kitchen and I love this little bird.

Thanks again to Wilby for his very inspired idea. I still have some tweaking and adjustments to make and I am not convinced this will make the battery last longer but, it is cool and it just might.

@ Jeanna:

Very good work over there. Thanks for posting those concise instructions on your experiment.

Bill

thats is awesome bill! too cool

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 14, 2009, 11:58:19 PM

@Pirate,
You do good video.

Thanks wilby for getting Bill inspired to try this!

So, Bill was that red wire going to the leds a secondary?
I couldn't tell.

nice video.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 15, 2009, 12:11:13 AM

@Pirate88179
you could put your contacts lower on the bird and the plates on the support frame.
the length of the plates can change.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 15, 2009, 12:18:58 AM

@ Jesus:

Thank you and, nice drawing! It is still cold here but, I was cooking spagetti for dinner and, the kitchen heated up and....Wilby's Bird was cycling at about every 18 seconds. So, this will work better in the summer. I can move the contact up but, I have to let the bird reach its full extension or he does not hit the water. But, you are right, I only need to change the wire brushes to a smaller gauge so they come into contact sooner and therefore will be in contact longer. This thing is in a delicate balance and I originally tried to use the contact switch from one of my Fuji camera boards (I knew they might come in handy one day) but, even that thin copper contact was too much for the bird. Thanks for the comment and the picture and your suggestion. I will try it in a few days, as well as a few other ideas I came up with. I think this will work.

@ Wilby:

Hey, you now have a bird named after you. While this might not become quite as famous as Schrodinger's Cat, it now goes down in the annals of energy research history. Ha ha. Thanks again for the idea!

@ Jeanna:

The red wire you see is from where I had originally installed a switch which I removed for this experiment. This is just the original basic JT on a 1" toroid from electronics Goldmine, using the N3904 transistor and a 1k ohm resistor. The leds are 5mm ultraviolets with the plastic tube coated with black light paint. The toroid is wound bifilar with 22 ga. wire. The Bird is still running in my living room as I type this.

Thanks again everyone! Hey, almost 500 pages here. Great job everyone.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 15, 2009, 12:21:16 AM

Quote from: TheNOP on April 15, 2009, 12:11:13 AM
@Pirate88179
you could put your contacts lower on the bird and the plates on the support frame.
the length of the plates can change.

Thanks. Yes, good idea. As I said above there are a lot of "tweaks" that can be played with here. This was just my 2nd attempt to get it to run after UPS delivered it to me this afternoon. I swear, these are really cool little devices. Thank you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 15, 2009, 12:25:04 AM

It is better than New Years Eve. 500 here we come.

Bill, can you tell us how you painted the inside of the tube and what you used, please?

I really love what that looks like.

Maybe there could be some hula hoops in fluoro light too!

OK so, maybe you only need to wind 20 turns of a secondary and use those wires to light the leds. Your bird and caps may catch up to each other.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 15, 2009, 12:36:05 AM

@ Jeanna:

I used (From my local Hobby Lobby store) Createx fluorescent airbrush colors black light paint. I used a very complicated scientific process to coat the inside of the tubes. (not really) I simply filled the plastic tubing with the paint and turned it around a bit to make sure it was fully coated, then gently blew most of the paint out using my lips. I then dried them using a hair dryer. I did this 2 times to get a good even coat on the inside. It has a tendency to bead up on the plastic as this is water based paint.

And yes, your idea of adding a secondary might just make all of the difference. I will be trying that for sure. I was hoping to get "extra" light from the tubes and the paint and it actually might be a little more than the regular leds of this size, but, it was not as good as I had hoped. There are other ways to use this paint and the ultraviolets that I will be trying. I am thinking of stuff I can paint and then shine the leds on. I am sure you will have some good ideas on this too. Heck Jeanna, you could paint one wall with this (I can't I am renting) and bounce 30 uv leds off of it and maybe light the room, who knows?

Thank you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 15, 2009, 12:51:20 AM

@The NOP:

I was just thinking about your idea and I believe you are right. I could make a contact in a radis shape of the arc described by the movement and mount that on the base lower on the bird's body in order to have contact earlier and longer. The trick will be do it in a way that has like 0 drag and still have contact. I feel like I have already increased the resistance in the circuit as I used to be able to (as done in my earlier videos) just touch the contact for 1 second and have it light for almost a full minute. Now, with thinner wire and less contact area, which I believe gives me increased resistance, I don't get as much bang for my buck on the contact. I will think about this some more but, I think it is a good idea and I really appreciate your suggestion, thank you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 15, 2009, 01:37:13 AM

@All,

I did a wee bit of work tonight. Photoshop work, that is.
I never gave any voltages on this surprising circuit, and I thought you ought to see what I saw.

I took measurements from 4 circuits yesterday.
Here are the results of one of them.
They are all similar.
I put the interesting numbers of volts in turquoise on the colored schematic.

I forgot to type in the amps draw from a 1.29vAAA battery = 31.6mA for the 2 tier ckt.
The first tier all by itself weighs in at 36mA

Have a look:

jeanna
edit.
hmm it's a bit light.
All the measurements were taken with the ground where that round dot is. = the negative side of the "secondary" leds and stuck the probe and measured at the spot with the arrow. I used the scope for these numbers.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 15, 2009, 01:48:32 AM

A few pictures of my Lab Assistant and roommate inspecting a mysterious device in her living room.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dog812 on April 15, 2009, 01:52:56 AM

@gadget Ill pick some N3904's up tomorrow.

@jeanna
Here is a couple pics.. i am testing using 15 whites right now just to see how long it will last.
http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pq21aVJ0
http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pq21a_Ii
http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pq21b4HA

I bought some 50k Pots today.. but i cant figure out how to get them to work? Is there a link somewhere?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 15, 2009, 02:12:52 AM

Quote from: dog812 on April 15, 2009, 01:52:56 AM
I bought some 50k Pots today.. but i cant figure out how to get them to work? Is there a link somewhere?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potentiometer

use the center terminal(the wiper) with one of the other.

to find it, with any kind of potentiometer, you can test with an ohmsmeter.
you will know witch one is the wiper when turning/sliding the knob don't change the resistance.
that will mean your probes are not on it ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 15, 2009, 02:13:35 AM

Quote from: dog812 on April 15, 2009, 01:52:56 AM
@jeanna
Here is a couple pics.. ...
....
I bought some 50k Pots today.. but i cant figure out how to get them to work? Is there a link somewhere?

I love that battery holder.
Also, I never thought about putting all the parallel lights on the battery rail. It would have saved me a lot of time a couple of months ago... so, thanks for those pics.

A pot has 3 legs.
Put your meter on ohms. Now, touch 2 of the pot legs and find 2 that say something other than the maximum. Usually a center one is involved with the outside legs being the maximum. When you find them, clip some alligator clips on longish wires to those 2 legs. While watching the ohm count on the meter, turn the little screw in the center of the pot and watch the number of ohms change.

I usually bend one of the unused legs out flat so I don't get confused when the thing is set in place.

To change the resistance just turn the pot screw until the lights get to what you want them to be, then pull out the pot and measure the resistance. (You can't measure resistance with the battery connected to the circuit. ) So, you can measure it in place if you remember to take out the battery and if you can reach the legs.

I am getting tired, I hope this makes sense.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 15, 2009, 02:15:48 AM

Quote from: dog812 on April 15, 2009, 01:52:56 AM
@gadget Ill pick some N3904's up tomorrow.

@jeanna
Here is a couple pics.. i am testing using 15 whites right now just to see how long it will last.
http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pq21aVJ0
http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pq21a_Ii
http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pq21b4HA

I bought some 50k Pots today.. but i cant figure out how to get them to work? Is there a link somewhere?

@ Dog:

50k pots are probably too much for what you are trying to do. I use 5k and even those are too large with the 1k base resistor. It will work, but you will find that your adjustment range of turning goes from like 320 degrees to like 4 degrees.
Pots are simple. There are 3 connections, the one in the middle is the wiper. Just attach your wire in series with the base resistor to one of the 2 side connectors. Take the line out from the wiper which is in the middle. If you put your meter on the pot before wiring, set it to continuity setting, and as you turn the pot you will see that one of the connectors to the wiper will increase resistance when turning clockwise and then, the other will decrease resistance when turning clockwise and visa versa. Just use the meter and it will be obvious to you right away. Others here know more about this than me but, that is what I know. Nice pictures man.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 15, 2009, 07:57:05 AM

@ Bill,
Congradulations, the Forum is at 500.
All the best for another 500 whacko posts
jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Thaelin on April 15, 2009, 09:55:04 AM

500 pages at 10 posts per page, that makes it 5000

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Going to set a record here folks.

thaelin

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dog812 on April 15, 2009, 10:02:21 AM

Thanks for all the help. I guess ill try to return these 50k pots and get some 5k's..
I am also going to try some 3904's and see if that makes any difference compared to my n2222. And i guess ill be buying a cheap voltmeter.. make this a lil easier. ;)

Well these 15 LED's have been lit off 1 rechargeable AAA battery for 12.5 hours and still going..
It has already almost doubled the time of a normal JT.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on April 15, 2009, 10:07:55 AM

Quote from: Thaelin on April 15, 2009, 09:55:04 AM
500 pages at 10 posts per page, that makes it 5000

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Going to set a record here folks.

thaelin

500 is awesome

1000 is better ;)

so im working on the next ring .. i will have some pics today ;D

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 15, 2009, 12:12:33 PM

Quote from: dog812 on April 15, 2009, 10:02:21 AM
Well these 15 LED's have been lit off 1 rechargeable AAA battery for 12.5 hours and still going..
It has already almost doubled the time of a normal JT.

Excellent.
I assume you mean that circuit you asked about yesterday?

good job.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 15, 2009, 01:13:46 PM

5k, 50k or 1meg ohms potentiometer, it does not matter much.
but what is really helpfull is its resolution.

multi turns potentiometer are best to set a precise resistance.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on April 15, 2009, 05:25:34 PM

It may be worthwhile to wind a j/t in KLM fashion or to incorporate one or two into the j/t circuit.

These KLM coils are really cutting edge thinking.

http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Chris_Brown%27s_KML_Coils#How_to_Make_a_KML_Coil

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 15, 2009, 05:26:49 PM

@ Jim:

Thank you my friend. You are a good man.

@ All:

I finally managed to pick up my scope from the Post Office here. It is great and seems to work on both channels. It has complete documentation and manual and, a bonus guide on how to use o'scopes. My probes arrived yesterday so now, I just need to read a lot and get started. This will be fun.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 15, 2009, 05:27:33 PM

Hey Everyone, we just hit our 5,000th post!!!!!!! Congratulations to everyone and also, thank you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 15, 2009, 05:36:48 PM

Quote from: Cap-Z-ro on April 15, 2009, 05:25:34 PM
It may be worthwhile to wind a j/t in KLM fashion or to incorporate one or two into the j/t circuit.

These KLM coils are really cutting edge thinking.

http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Chris_Brown%27s_KML_Coils#How_to_Make_a_KML_Coil

Regards...

@ Cap:

I was reading the topic Sterling started here on OU. I am not familiar with the KML coil but the claims made in Sterling's topic sound too good to be true. Time will tell I suppose. Thanks for posting that here. I would be interested in what the others think. Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on April 15, 2009, 05:45:29 PM

Bill...the fact that it is drawing energy from air coils like Daniel Pomerlou has peaked my interest.

I have been kicking Pomerlou's circuitry around my head for the last few months and I have some ideas on what might be happening...and the KLM coil makes sense according to my theory.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 15, 2009, 06:53:51 PM

Hey Bill,
Let me welcome you to the "New Scope Owners" Club.
This will be fun, for sure.

@Cap-z-ro.
Interesting and the timing too. I have no memory of how far back it was, but there is a post with a pic of coils on all 3 axes back there somewhere. I awoke one morning last fall with a download I didn't know what to do with and it was just like what those antennae coils are doing. I too thought this should be incorporated into the joule thief circuit.

I don't think anyone has had much luck with it, however. :(

It is always good to have another idea to roll around.

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on April 15, 2009, 07:02:23 PM

Odd how things are somehow synchronized isn't it Jeanna.

As soon as I saw that coil it reminded me of the j/t.

This thing may be just what the j/t needs to get the amps we all need.

" there is a post with a pic of coils on all 3 axes back there somewhere "...I must have missed that one...I'd sure like to see it now though.

I certainly wouldn't expect you or anyone to go hunting for it though. :)

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 15, 2009, 07:56:38 PM

Well cap,

your wish, said the Genie...

This is what I posted which had to do with the "download". I actually saw 3 coils on 3 axes, but couldn't figure how to do it without them getting in each other's way. Sterling did it.

Here is the pic. I took the pretty part off the Nassim Haramein website TheResonanceProject.org because to me they relate in an important way.

jeanna (aka Genie ;) )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 15, 2009, 08:04:03 PM

Quote from: Cap-Z-ro on April 15, 2009, 05:25:34 PM
It may be worthwhile to wind a j/t in KLM fashion or to incorporate one or two into the j/t circuit.

These KLM coils are really cutting edge thinking.

sorry, but for having tryed something similar and what the guy actualy say of it experiment.

Quote"1st example power station runs for many hours depending on load and charges it self. The only problem i need to over come is a 00.01 point loss over time then it holds at 12.15 and slowly go's 00.01 lower and get's slower losing charge and takes at least 20 minutes now to lose 1 volt by itself because the charger is sucking to much power then it's putting back into the battery. All i need to do is make the 00.01 climb and i'm set to put any load on it :) that it can handle :) The TV was allot of watts for the system to handle it's self in 6-7 hours just lost about 2.3 volts the safety features of the inverter shuts down the system if voltage drops to 10.5-11"

he could have achive 30 minutes to an hour more without the charger.
those coils don't do much the way he use them.

might worte trying with a jt to see what would be the output tho.
but i don't expect much out of it.
it is not much different then an ordinary inductance with a bit of self inductance added.

@Pirate88179
congrat for your new "baby" :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on April 15, 2009, 08:30:57 PM

Thanks Jeanna...was that memory, luck, or esp ?

I will have to let that thing simmer a bit in my mind.

@NOP...I am more interested in the antenna aspect of that concept, in relation to Pomerlou's circuit.

I see potential there, and in combination with j/t properties.

I have to ponder the possibilities a spell...there are so many variables involved here to consider.

If Jeanna is receiving "downloads" maybe she could be the one to put it all together...as most of the greats were good 'receivers'.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 15, 2009, 08:58:49 PM

@Cap-Z-ro

from what i have read about Pomerlou, the phemomena are closely related to him.
his device does not work without him being there.

i guess this rule most of us, if not all of us, out of OU with replications of his way of windding coils.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 15, 2009, 09:14:58 PM

@Bill,
I bought 2 kinds of paint today.
a garish yellow that glows greenish under a uv led. It says fluorescent paint.

The other one is glow-in-the-dark.
It does not say fluorescent. Nor does it need a uv light.
It gets charged with light then glows when the light is off.
It might be fun. Maybe I should strobe it, or something.

I got a strobe effect today on the 2tier set-up, with a battery dying at 1.09v when rested, but .54v when working. The supercap in the battery rail kept up a good strobe, if slow. It was quite even.

I think the former is what you have. So, count me in!

I painted the inside surface of a small glass tea-light candle holder. It needs a second coat.

I have a small question. How many uv lights are you using? It looks like 2- one on each end. Is that right? I think I will solder this one, because I am fresh out of breadboard space, and besides it might be a good job for a real joule thief with 2 uv leds on a secondariy

Do you have any advice?
I will post a picture, of course, when it looks like something.
Right now, the paint looks very smear-y because there is only one coat. I hope one more will do it.

This is fun.

Thanks for the idea.

jeanna

EDIT.
The reason I mentioned the 3 axis configuration back whenever was because something jadaro was doing with multiple choke coils reminded me of it. He was using the joule thief concept but with a straight line configuration, so I offered it to him.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on April 15, 2009, 09:15:23 PM

" from what i have read about Pomerlou, the phemomena are closely related to him.
his device does not work without him being there. "

If I am on the right track, that may be only because no one but him knows how it works...and if would follow that no one but him knows how to engage the effect.

Something to consider for sure.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 15, 2009, 09:30:14 PM

Jeanna:

I was using one then I decide to add another since these uv leds are the small kind and not high output. So, what you saw in the video was simply two separate leds and two pieces of plastic tubing. I think one is a bit longer than the other. I was trying to see how far the light would excite the paint....it is not that far. I still think this idea has some merit as we can excite the materials using the uv bandwidth to get possibly more light than from a standard led as the light would then go out in all directions and not be so confined as our leds now are. This was the original idea anyway. I just have not yet found the best "delivery" device for this approach. Now, if anyone knows of ultrabright 10mm uv leds, then this would get better real fast. To me, the main problem of leds, as I have said before, is their directional nature of output. I was hoping to diffuse the light over a larger area using the photons released by the excitement of the material in the black light paint. There is a lot of experimenting that can be done in this area and I am very sure, someone will come up with something better than I have done.

I like the idea of using glass Jeanna, my plastic tubing is opaque and limits the light output from the start. If I could find some glass tubing locally, I think it would work better.

Thanks for welcoming my new scope everyone, it will take a while but.......at least it works.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dog812 on April 15, 2009, 09:37:31 PM

Well today i picked up some 3904's and didnt notice any difference from the 2n222A i was using before.
I also experimented with the pots.. and found that removing the pot / resistor completely made the LED's the brightest..
Why would that be? What is the point of using the resistor in this schematic? http://www.instructables.com/files/deriv/F2I/ZRXQ/FR0ZHOS5/F2IZRXQFR0ZHOS5.MEDIUM.jpg

I finally picked up a voltmeter.. so hopefully i can get better at testing.. now i just need to figure out how to use it.. so far no readings make sence to me haha.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on April 15, 2009, 09:46:23 PM

hey bill and jeanna you can get small sections of glass by taking apart a fuse. i use them all the time, for my QHC spark gap, as a roller in my van de graff, etc.
they aren't that big, but then bill said the light doesn't go very far. heck you might be able to just fill the glass tube with paint, glue the led to one end and and seal the other?

maybe a UV laser diode with no collimator instead of a led? i have run IR and red laser diodes off a jt. needs current limiting or you're rolling dice with you laser diode.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 15, 2009, 09:49:29 PM

Dog:

Excellent that you got a meter, good going. OK, here is my non-professional opinion of the resistors. Waaaay back in the beginning of this topic, I asked about resistors as I have always seen them as "wasting" energy. (they get hot, heat takes power) The answer I received from many of our fellow experiments was that it is there (resistance) to protect the transistor. OK, I can live with that. Then, I started using variable resistors and found I could get a very bright light with low power draw and the transistor survived ok.

So, if you get a bright light without ANY resistance, and your transistor does not get hot or blow out, then my unskilled opinion would be not to use one. Whatever you have done in your circuit due to materials, components and windings may allow this to happen and it is important for us to understand that.

As Jeanna can tell you, you may see, once you use your meter, that your power draw is way, way up with no resistance and, that getting the proper resistance give you almost the same amount of light, and 1/10 the power draw, which leads to better longevity.

Well, this is all I can contribute I am sure others that know more can help. Nice job.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 15, 2009, 09:59:44 PM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on April 15, 2009, 09:46:23 PM
....

i have run IR and red laser diodes off a jt. needs current limiting or you're rolling dice with you laser diode.

Even with a joule thief using one AA battery? I guess if you have the resistor way down, that could be a problem.. I am still surprised that you say this.

thank you

jeanna

EDIT add:
@Dog812,
Yes, I do concur. You may want to test for amps draw with your new meter and see. I will explain if you need directions for that.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on April 15, 2009, 10:04:37 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 15, 2009, 09:59:44 PM
Even with a joule thief using one AA battery? I guess if you have the resistor way down, that could be a problem.. I am still surprised that you say this.

thank you

jeanna

yup, one battery. sorry, my bad i meant to say regulated current.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on April 15, 2009, 10:15:20 PM

Wow over 500 pages! This is something very special and I feel so blessed to be apart of it. Congratulation's Bill!!!!! I have a quick question :) I am looking at buying a new Toroid the cost is around 30 dollars! it has a Permeability of 5000.

Does that sound unreasonable? I would gladly spend over 100 for a good Toroid!

Thanks!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 15, 2009, 10:15:22 PM

OK

This deserves its own post.

It is about not needing the resistor at the base for the jt effect.

It is something I think is definitely possible on a first tier joule thief.
It has been well described by xee what happens in a jtc, but I think the bifilar winding has a way of making the current go back and forth even without the transistor.

If you look at the 2 tier jt I made the other day, only the regular jtc on the first tier has a transistor and resistor.
So, the secondary which is AC is feeding the second jtc as though it were a battery. (If it isn't really nice AC, it sure is pulsed dc.)
So, with that going into the second part of the thing, the whole second tier does the joule thief thing.
It does it all over the place too.

I have put leds in 3 places now and while they are related to the second tier toroid, only one place is in the usual way, and they all work.
In fact they work much better than they do when I keep the second tier exactly to 'code' for a joule thief.

So, who knows?

Just keep trying things and we will make more and more progress.

BTW, Isn't your circuit the one with the extra cap and extra resistor?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 15, 2009, 10:17:56 PM

Quote from: altrez on April 15, 2009, 10:15:20 PM
Wow over 500 pages! This is something very special and I feel so blessed to be apart of it. Congratulation's Bill!!!!! I have a quick question :) I am looking at buying a new Toroid the cost is around 30 dollars! it has a Permeability of 5000.

Does that sound unreasonable? I would gladly spend over 100 for a good Toroid!

Thanks!

-Altrez

I think you want LOW permeability.
Hi flux low permeability.
Right MK1?

What we use is the cheap kind, I am pretty sure.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dog812 on April 15, 2009, 10:47:35 PM

Thanks for all the info on resistors ... and everything else.. I never would have figured this stuff out if i didnt find this site.

OK.. so testing my current draw.. i think i am doing this right.. I have the red wire in the spot that says 10A

When i test it with 1k resistor in : 3.2 - 3.4 with noticeable less light.

2.2k resistor : 3.2 - 3.4 same amount of light.

resistor out : around 3.7 2x brighter.

5k pot : 3.6 same brightness with no resistor.

using the extra 22N cap method.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dog812 on April 15, 2009, 11:19:06 PM

P.s.
when it says 3.6 what does that mean? since its on the setting of 10A do i x10?
What unit is that in? milliamps?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Thaelin on April 15, 2009, 11:35:57 PM

If you look at the tech sheet on the transistor, you will see an entry that
deals with the base junction. The resistor is there to limit the amount of current
that flows through this junction. Too much and you kill it. The more current
you let flow through, the more power that is allowed to flow from emitter to
collector or vise versa depending if npn or pnp. Since we are using only 1.5v here
the transistor is capable of handleing it. The 3904 is a general purpose switching
transistor widely used in old equipment.
Now when you start upping the voltage, look out as it will smoke them quick, I know.
Would be a good rule to not go below 10 ohms at 1.5v just for safety reasons. I
have seen people use 10 ohms on a 3055 at 12v and that is really pushing it hard.
Using ohms law, you can figure how much to add for the voltage used. Specs say it
breaks down at 6 volts, but remember you are inducing it from a kick back from the
coils too.

thaelin

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 16, 2009, 03:59:39 AM

This is a drone post, :P.

I got some new parts today, and decided to demonstrate a proof of concept. Circuit diagram is included, along with two pictures.

I'm NOT using a resistor, only a capacitor, and an axially molded inductor of 15 micro Henrie which contains ferromagnetic material around which is a larger coil. This simple setup produces 7.5 volts at the test side, without an LED present.

These two elements, or some similar element setup is all that is needed to begin the oscillation process. This particular setup is running at around 2.5MHz...tomorrow, I will attempt to run many led's off this one circuit. Then later, I will be using this setup to turn on the oscillations - isolating the blocking oscillation action to this particular two-piece setup, thus freeing up the toroid for primary and secondary winding or some other setup.

The pictured circuit is extremely sensitive, ..in order for it to start, the main capacitor must be completely discharged. I'm not able to insert an ammeter - it simply will not cut on with it in the circuit.

*edit: I was able to light 5 LEDs before the circuit started dimming...after 9 things were still lighting up, but not so well. :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 16, 2009, 04:08:35 AM

@ Jadaro:

Nice work! This is very interesting and needs to be looked into further. This goes along with my original thinking of not liking resistors. Thanks for posting this.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 16, 2009, 04:09:21 AM

@Bill,
Thanks Bill, I see you have some probes!!!!! and your scope has arrived, ooooooh dats goodiegumdrop stuff that is he he.

Plug her in and fire-er up, cmon man, toss away da booklet, I'm eager to try er out, now wheres my travellln bag, here it is, I'm comin bill, better hide it ha ha ha.

Serious now, good for you mate, silver plug at the cro end is a BNC, the sharp prong at the other end is the point, the aligator clips on the earth, ha.

Set it to DC to make some measurements.

I'm about a day late I see, oh whell, never mind, now we are going to see some reposted readings, goodo.

Congrats again Bill. Well done.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 16, 2009, 04:12:35 AM

@ Jim:

Thanks man, I am looking forward to it too. I was reading the manual this evening and....it is not all that long. I guess they figured if a guy buys a scope, he probably already knows how to use it. I also got another manual on how to use a scope, and I think this will be a lot of help for me. Take care my friend.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 16, 2009, 04:30:12 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on April 16, 2009, 04:08:35 AM
@ Jadaro:

Nice work! This is very interesting and needs to be looked into further. This goes along with my original thinking of not liking resistors. Thanks for posting this.

Bill

Thank you, I'm wondering though, for my particular setup, if a JFET or MOSFET may be more appropriate.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 16, 2009, 05:05:05 AM

@Bill,
The resistor which is applied to the transistor base is there to limit the switching current to the "junction", If you were to "drive" the transistor with a 12v DC battery, it would turn into the sun for a split second, the smokle comes out and its good for the bin.

The resistor, limites or reduces the amount of current to oscillate it, especially if it was driving a small loud speaker.
If you dont have the right resistance, the output could be too low or too harsh or distorted.

Ohhhh, here I go again, Another Idea.

if you have a xtal (crystal earpiece) hook this up to the output and see if you can HEAR the Joule Thief.
You might have to put a 1k-220 ohm resistor in series with it though.

OR hook up a loudspeaker.
See if the LEDS pulse or not, will the scope display a different waveform?

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 16, 2009, 05:10:26 AM

@ General Jim:

Great idea here. I will look for one of the ear pieces and give it a go. You always come up with these great experiments.

PS I saw an ad on ebay where your mice are looking for a human trap. Be careful.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on April 16, 2009, 08:07:57 AM

@jeanna,

Ok so a Permeability of 125 would be better then 5000?

Thanks!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 16, 2009, 12:19:55 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 16, 2009, 03:59:39 AM
Circuit diagram is included, along with two pictures.

I'm NOT using a resistor, only a capacitor, and an axially molded inductor of 15 micro Henrie which contains ferromagnetic material around which is a larger coil. This simple setup produces 7.5 volts at the test side, without an LED present.

These two elements, or some similar element setup is all that is needed to begin the oscillation process. This particular setup is running at around 2.5MHz...tomorrow, I will attempt to run many led's off this one circuit. Then later, I will be using this setup to turn on the oscillations - isolating the blocking oscillation action to this particular two-piece setup, thus freeing up the toroid for primary and secondary winding or some other setup.

Well jadaro, I believe your set up is closer to what Nathan Stubblefield did than any other.

Your explanation is close to how I have explained his generator, also.

An EE friend told me he thought the NS generator oscillated at or in the MHz range.
In fact, this is the reason I did not buy the hand held scope last year. (My friend said 100MHz-200MHz.)

So, I am very interested to find out what is happening with your circuit.

thank you for this,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 16, 2009, 12:42:52 PM

Quote from: altrez on April 16, 2009, 08:07:57 AM
Ok so a Permeability of 125 would be better then 5000?

I guess. I have never seen any numbers. I only bought one that was called high permeability and it was really bad. (Hazens1 said his same one was fine) Then MK1 made the point that we are looking for high flux and I gather flux and permeability mean opposite things.

Just buy some medium toroids from electronic goldmine. While you are there, since the is a ten dollar minimum, get a few more types, but save your money and do not buy the bad blue which they call med blue, and don't buy the high permeability, unless you want to see if high permeability will work for you. It is $3.25, I think. I find the filter is a good one.

Get some extra 3904's and some diodes and caps, and a breadboard. It is too bad they don't sell mag wire too. ;)

@All,
I am going to try the filters that I have wrapped into jt toroid coils in my new circuit today.
The idea is that according to some, the first transformer in the fuji circuit was the one that raised the voltage the most. Then after that, the second transformer could do less transformer work and fill the cap to be ready for the xenon flash.

I have been keeping this in mind, and I will use the higher ratio transformers on the second tier just to see, but I want to put them on the first rail first.

Also, for now, I am continuing to use the XTree (the name derives from its wire colors: christmas tree because it is green and red with shiny red tinsel wire) on the second tier. It may not be the best choice in the ultimate design, but for now I am keeping the second tier the same and the transistor and base resistor on the first tier the same too.

I am recharging some batteries and I will start with freshly recharged ones too. The amps draw is much higher with a high input voltage, which I am used to with all other LED circuits.

OK for now,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 16, 2009, 01:18:53 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on April 16, 2009, 04:08:35 AM
This goes along with my original thinking of not liking resistors.

the base resistor is not only to protect the transistor base, it set the frequency as well.

@all
the frequency is gadgetmall's "secret" of his succes with adding cap on the base to reduce current draw.
it change the frequency as well as the duty cycle, no mystery or unprouvable things there.

if you understand RC circuit then you can reproduce gadgetmall results easily.
if not, you will need a lots of experimenting and a lots of logic to repete it.
and if you can't think logicaly, you might never be able to replicate it at all.

same thing goes with the cores
if you don't understand core's limitations and how to set the transistor's frequency you will get "bad" cores and not know how you can fix it.

@jadaro2600
i like what i see here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg171923#msg171923
that is an other proof that toroids and ferrites are not needed.
but that depends on your needs.

try replacing the resistor with a bare wire, currents will go up and more leds will light up brightly.
a potentiometer can still be used too, just make one of it lead go through the coil.

don't use any additionnal caps and diode
just the leds at the "normal" jt place
between collector and emiter, between the battery's pole will also work.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 16, 2009, 01:27:42 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 16, 2009, 12:42:52 PM
@All,
I am going to try the filters that I have wrapped into jt toroid coils in my new circuit today.
The idea is that according to some, the first transformer in the fuji circuit was the one that raised the voltage the most. Then after that, the second transformer could do less transformer work and fill the cap to be ready for the xenon flash.

the second transformer is there to trigger the xenon tube, not to fill the cap.
it is an autotransformer type, use to excite the xenon tube, so the cap can discharge through the xenon tube.
it rise the voltage further in the 3kv+ range(no amps) to excite the tube.
the cap won't discharge through the xenon tube without it.

fixed typos: "excite"

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 16, 2009, 01:35:59 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 16, 2009, 03:59:39 AM
This particular setup is running at around 2.5MHz...

how did you found that, you have a frequency counter ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 16, 2009, 01:39:47 PM

OK,
I see.

Still, it is the second tier that has the smaller ratio. I don't remember what. I suppose I will need to know when I am trying to fine tune my circuit.

for now, I am still just doing primary information gathering about this novel circuit.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on April 16, 2009, 02:14:13 PM

i'm done with this forum. stephan removed a post of mine on his 'be a vegetarian' thread. absolutely unacceptable.

nice meeting all of you, this is the best group of people on the board right here.
:-*

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 16, 2009, 02:28:35 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on April 16, 2009, 01:18:53 PM
if you understand RC circuit then you can reproduce gadgetmall results easily.
if not, you will need a lots of experimenting and a lots of logic to repete it.
and if you can't think logicaly, you might never be able to replicate it at all.

same thing goes with the cores
if you don't understand core's limitations and how to set the transistor's frequency you will get "bad" cores and not know how you can fix it.

theNOP,
Half of the people working on this thread do not have a great deal of experience or knowledge about these things.
We are here to learn, and to help each other.
We are also here to share our experimental ideas and results with each other.

Perhaps it is time for YOU to share some of your experimental results with us.
You make it clear that you have already tried and therefore you understand the things we are doing.
Since you have such great understanding I think it is time for you to take a turn and share your experimental reasons for saying the things you say.

For instance, what experiments did you design and perform that have taught you about toroids and their potentials.
What experiments have you made with RLC circuits.
Did you have any results?
What (exactly) did you find?

I am talking here about joule thief related circuits.
Have you made a joule thief circuit?
Does it light up your house at night?
Did you use a cap at the base?
what transistor do you find works best?
How many turns on each half of the primary jt winding do you prefer and why?

All taken from YOUR experiments, I mean.

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on April 16, 2009, 02:31:16 PM

Wilby, you are a valuable contributor here...perhaps it was simply a mistake.

Please explore that possibility before leaving.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on April 16, 2009, 02:31:18 PM

@jeanna

Permeability (electromagnetism), the degree of magnetization of a material in response to a magnetic field

I believe I am going to try four 2.9 Inch Toroid's. I am going to get them with the fallowing specs 145 1000 5000 and 10000. Then I will test each one to see if there is a difference. I will post all of my findings as well as my test rig.

Thank you for all the help!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 16, 2009, 05:18:03 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 16, 2009, 02:28:35 PM
theNOP,
Half of the people working on this thread do not have a great deal of experience or knowledge about these things.
We are here to learn, and to help each other.
We are also here to share our experimental ideas and results with each other.

i am here for the same reasons.
but you can say that it is less for learning then it is for sharing and the ideas.

Quote from: jeanna on April 16, 2009, 02:28:35 PM
Perhaps it is time for YOU to share some of your experimental results with us.
You make it clear that you have already tried and therefore you understand the things we are doing.
Since you have such great understanding I think it is time for you to take a turn and share your experimental reasons for saying the things you say.

i am sharing.
if you mean sharing photos, then i guess i am not sharing much as i have no camera.

my understanding does not come only from my experiments with the jt, i have a diploma in electronic.
it don't wort much today when knowing what i went through since my school days but anyway...
suffice to say that i didn't worked in that field at all all those years.

Quote from: jeanna on April 16, 2009, 02:28:35 PM
For instance, what experiments did you design and perform that have taught you about toroids and their potentials.
What experiments have you made with RLC circuits.
Did you have any results?
What (exactly) did you find?

first i learned the theoretical stuff at school.
after the teaching of a new component, we were assigned the basic experiments with the electronic components.

i have PMed you with some experiments that you can do to understand how transformer work.
from where do you think those proposed experiments came from ?
were they not related to the jt too ?

transformer, transistors, RL, RC, RLC are just a few of the circuits or components we were teached.

stuff like:
-what does happen when varying the resistor value.
-what does happen when varying the capacitor value
-what does happen when varying the inductor value

we had the tools to get those values, so, yes, i had results for those circuits.
for me, i came to the conclusion that the theoretical stuff was right, that indeed, what we were teached applied to those circuits.

don't you think that if those circuit are also found in a jt, then the same basic rules apply to them ?

Quote from: jeanna on April 16, 2009, 02:28:35 PM
I am talking here about joule thief related circuits.

if you can't see that basic electronic circuits do apply to a jt circuit then i fear i can't help.

Quote from: jeanna on April 16, 2009, 02:28:35 PM
Have you made a joule thief circuit?
Does it light up your house at night?
Did you use a cap at the base?

yes, more then one.

yes, sometime, it is on for time based experiments, so not always. my goal, for now, is not to illuminate my house.

some, yes. some, no. depends what i was testing.

Quote from: jeanna on April 16, 2009, 02:28:35 PM
what transistor do you find works best?

i don't really know, mine "best" was a c2120.
all transistor should work, but it must trigger at the voltage you are using.
my problem is i don't have any of those low base voltage transistor to work with 1.5volts anymore.
the one i have work with minimum 3~5 volts to the base.

Quote from: jeanna on April 16, 2009, 02:28:35 PM
How many turns on each half of the primary jt winding do you prefer and why?

i have no preferences.
it is not a preference, it is a must do thing.
it all depends on what components/meterials i am using.

for low in iron cores(10+) i put more turns then for laminated iron(1+).
but, for low in iron cores, i also change the frequency at the transistor base to make it higher.
same for laminated iron, but then, i make it low frequency instead.

Quote from: jeanna on April 16, 2009, 02:28:35 PM
All taken from YOUR experiments, I mean.

for everythings i am saying in this tread, i am trying to include only what can be proved.
be it stuff i learned in my young time, or from any experiments i have done, with a jt or not.

and if i am wrong in something please feel free to rectify me, i will be thankfull.
i am not perfect, but i am trying.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 16, 2009, 06:21:54 PM

@ TheNOP:

Thanks for sharing your background information here. I have learned a lot since we all started this and, I know there is a lot more to learn. I had a decent overview knowledge of electronics from my machine shop days but, nothing like the real nuts and bolts stuff I now know and am learning here. If someone told me 2 years ago that I would now be attempting to learn to use a scope, I would have thought they were nuts, ha ha. I have to agree that the laws are laws for a reason, because they hold up. Does that mean there are no loopholes or exceptions? Maybe, possibly, doubtful, unlikely....I don't know.

I just read somewhere either in my electronics book, or on here somewhere that Ohms law stops working when a magnetic field is introduced....do I have this correct? Maybe it was from one of my on-line electronics lecture series....if I have this wrong, let me know and I will correct this. Otherwise, I will try to remember where I read this. If not in a magnetic field, there was some conditions where Ohm's law no longer works. (I hate when I can't remember stuff exactly) Thanks, I appreciate your contributions here.

@ Wilby:

Don't leave us man, we need guys like you. Possibly there was a misunderstanding due to the language difference here?

@ Jeanna:

I like the direction your work is going and soon, I will begin attempts to replicate. I think I have most, if not all, of the stuff here to do it. I even have some 2N222's to have a go with also. Take care.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 16, 2009, 06:54:03 PM

@Pirate88179
the "laws" are not how nature work, they are only interpretations of it.
almost each one apply to specific cases only.

like i sayed, Ohm's law sometime does not apply, but in general it does.
Ohm's law is not the only one that does this.

you can probably verify my saying about Ohm's law and a few others in one or more of those lectures.
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=C2CEECFD938FD494
those are physic lectures btw.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on April 16, 2009, 07:10:29 PM

Sorry, been away for a while.. Have been real busy at work and other stuff. Got a shipment of 100 LEDs in the mail today and thought I would take a minute and test them. I bought 100x 5mm 20,000mcd 3.6v 20Â°-25Â° viewing angle LEDs for $8.99 shipped on Ebay a couple weeks ago. Finally have enough LEDs to test some of my newer circuits. I quickly put 43 in parallel on the Pickup coil after the rectifier on my older 3/8inch Green/Red Christmas toroid. I think it is a 20-20-80 wind if my memory is correct. 26ga on the Base and Collector and 30ga on the Pickup. It could do more LEDs, but I ran out of room. Circuit uses a 2n2222 with a 10k ohm parallel with a Blue Radio Shack bulk pack cap labeled 561-1kv. Input draw in the following picture is 1.35v at 17ma. Ignore all the crap on the Left breadboard, it is not hooked up and I was too lazy to remove it from previous experiments :P

Also, the brightness of the LEDs that are not directly under the camera are misleading since these have such a narrow viewing angle. Viewed directly above each LED is as bright as the ones in the center of the picture. All the LEDs are fairly bright. Probably as bright as if they were being driven off of 10ma direct DC current at 3.6 volts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 16, 2009, 07:12:20 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on April 16, 2009, 01:35:59 PM
how did you found that, you have a frequency counter ?

This is a good question.

I have a DMM which shows me duty cycle and frequency. I tested it on sound system with a tone generator, and things are fairly accurate. I took the measurement between the base and the collector. I assume that when we're talking about frequency on such a basic setup, that it's the frequency which is across these leads.

I've taken some others as well, so here are my revised numbers for this particular setup...

Measurement: Base - Collector: Across Inductor to Base
Duty Cycle: 78.6% : 99.9%
Frequency: 2.756 MHz:1.054 kHz

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 16, 2009, 08:33:03 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 16, 2009, 07:12:20 PM
I tested it on sound system with a tone generator, and things are fairly accurate. I took the measurement between the base and the collector. I assume that when we're talking about frequency on such a basic setup, that it's the frequency which is across these leads.

I've taken some others as well, so here are my revised numbers for this particular setup...

Measurement: Base - Collector: Across Inductor to Base
Duty Cycle: 78.6% : 99.9%
Frequency: 2.756 MHz:1.054 kHz

cool
i can only guess when it come to frequencies.
a frequency counter cost to much for my current ressources.

what model is it and how much does it cost ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 16, 2009, 08:34:08 PM

@Hazens1
Bravo!!
For a lot of things.
The price for those leds, for one.
The good output for another.
Glad you are back.

@Jadaro,
What does duty cycle mean and how does it relate to this?

@All,

I only have a moment right now, but I just finally succeeded in collecting 6 volts from the second tier and. yup, you guessed it, The first tier had a (very weak and only partial) MK1 style toroid pumping it.

I will get into it more a bit later.

I also wanted to say, because Altrez wants to try an expensive hi permeability toroid, I pulled out my hi perm jt toroid wound with lots of secondary I think 7T,7T,68T maybe.

The thing as a first tier is just disappointing, as before, but on the second tier the most interesting thing happened and I believe it is the hi perm that is responsible.

The second tier lights (4 in 2 spots) blaze brightly.
There is one connection that the scope can find no volts 0.00v then bump, .6v for one spike, then back to zero.
It may have some use after all, because for the blazing lights the draw was 29mA.
For now, I am glad I did not take it apart.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 16, 2009, 08:45:09 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 16, 2009, 08:34:08 PM
What does duty cycle mean and how does it relate to this?

frequency is the number of cycle per unit of time. second, microsecond, nanosecond, etc...

duty cycle is how much of this cycle remain in a state versu the other state.

ex: for pulsed DC, it is how long it stay in the on state and how long it stay in the off state for each cycle.
for AC it is how long on the + side and how long on the - side.

AC can be concidered as a tristate cycle, but the second state is almost never saw in electronic.
+ 000 - 000 + 000 - is not something usual.
+ 0 - 0 + 0 - or +++ 0 --- 0 +++ 0 --- is

duty cycle in AC can be view like this:
+++ 0 - 0 +++ 0 -

in DC:
+++ 00 +++ 00 or + 000 + 000

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on April 16, 2009, 09:36:45 PM

if the red line begins where the green line begins then yep thats what i was talkin about! if thats a green wire lead going through the coil to the red where the green wire sticks up then that is definately the design. the whole idea is that the electricity takes the "same path" twice. of course not by the same wire. but if i remember correctly wireing one clockwise and the other counter will cancel all magnetism so the wires litterally have to be wound side by side. i may not be able to test this as soon as i want but i would love to hear feedback since its tesla im allways all ears!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on April 16, 2009, 09:59:31 PM

this is complete hypothetical crap so if your still interested read on!

the way tesla spoke of this pancake coil as it was origionally thought to be was that it had a capacitive value, now that sounds to me like the longer the current is applied the more the magnetism added up. imagine if we had a coil designed like this! in water terms the deeper you go the greater the pressure is. relatively speaking if we use a "regular" coil as it was put it would allow the magnetism to freely leave the coil thus resulting in a river effect, water in equals water out. keeps flowing and moving but does not acumulate. now if we create a special coil its like putting a dam in place. now the water piles up and the water at the bottom of the "lake" or center of the coil has added pressure. a spring that has been squeezed and is ready to release its energy if you will. once we let it go it returns to normal shape. IE if we applied this to the joule thief it would in effect continue to add to the magnetism in the torroid until we had it pull a trigger. 1.5v X (factor of time) equals a additional magnetic pressure we did not have before and then BANG! we release all at once. wonder what could be done with that?!?!

additionally i do not know at this time how we could build it and use it but i have seen some people report "wierd" effects coming from the pancake version.

also to note if the "tesla coil" as illustrated is a cut coil as i suggested then we would have to assume that the wires are not side by side but actually layered. this could make a difference as it may create the compression force of the magnetism suggested here.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 16, 2009, 10:03:53 PM

@ Wilby,
I along with others have enjoyed your posts here on Pirates (bills) forum.
Perhapse Stefan accidently erased the "vegie" posts you mentioned, I also have accidently erased several PMs that I was about to post and had to rewrite them again, it's a real pain when this occurs.

If Stephan did it on purpose, there may have a very good reason for doing so, had a virus been hiding inside a post waiting for activation? and the safe way to protect his web site would be to remove a section? I don't know.

But if it was me, I would ask Stephan the "hows and whys" and see what he says first before you burnt your bridges.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 16, 2009, 10:25:39 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on April 16, 2009, 08:45:09 PM

duty cycle is how much of this cycle remain in a state versu the other state.

ex: for pulsed DC, it is how long it stay in the on state and how long it stay in the off state for each cycle.
for AC it is how long on the + side and how long on the - side.

@ AK.
I pretty much understand this part of your explanation.
I appreciate it. thanks.

I am not sure how jadaro used it.

He said 78% : 99%

I would think the 2 percentages would have to equal 100% unless 78% of the upper cycle and 99% of the lower cycle. ?? ??

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 16, 2009, 10:31:39 PM

@ Hazens1:

Great job over there! Especially, like Jeanna said, the price on those leds, that sounds like a deal to me.

@TheNOP:

Yes, these are exactly the video courses I have been watching. Dr. Walter Lewin is fantastic! There are actually about 50 lectures in this series from the MIT website, and others. I freely admit that the math part of this, which is a huge part, is beyond my current understanding. He can go over my head about 5 minutes into the lectures but, I can then watch them again and again....sooner or later...something should sink in yes?

Yes, I agree with you on the laws and their specific applications. I am not one of these people that say toss out all of the laws of physics, electronics, etc. As you said, we have these for a reason and they have enabled our society to create some fantastic things by applying them. We do not disagree on this at all. I just wish I had your background and then, things might be a lot more clear to me than they are now. But, I am working on that.

@ Al:

The lecture series that TheNOP posted are wonderful and I highly recommend them to anyone wanting to learn about physics, electricity and magnetism. Back when these were taped, in the 90's, I believe he said just his one course cost the students $20,000.00!!! So, free is really good.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on April 16, 2009, 10:33:06 PM

Measurement: Base - Collector: Across Inductor to Base
Duty Cycle: 78.6% : 99.9%
Frequency: 2.756 MHz:1.054 kHz

He is taking the readings from 2 different points.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 16, 2009, 10:37:26 PM

AH I see.

Thank you MrMag, that helps.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dog812 on April 16, 2009, 10:49:02 PM

Finally i got some meter'd results for you.. thanks to Jeanna

Ok I made this schematic.With my mod of taking out the resistor. And only 6 paired winds on the torrid cuz that is all that would fit with 26 awg wire.
http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gx1fn9VA

Then i put 15 White LED's on and used a 68 OHM resistor for the reading. As you can see it says .9 Volts / 68 Ohm resistance = 13.2 Milliamp draw.
http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gx1fn7qr

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 16, 2009, 10:51:31 PM

@Artic_Knight
what is "wierd" about Tesla pancake coil ?

it have some properties but that is not wierd at all.
this coil is a capacitor, resistor and inductor all in one.
this coil also use its capacitance to cancel out its inductance.

if i remember right, at resonnant frequency the current will only be affected by the coil's resistance.

edited
MrMag opened my eyes about jadaro measurements. :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 16, 2009, 11:04:11 PM

Hi everyone,
I got some extra volts today. 9volts picked up and caught in a cap while 4 lights were blazing. (really blazing)

I took a pic and labeled the parts so you can see it.
The first tier toroid is called "MK.4" because it is less than half of a real MK1
The second tier toroid is the "XTree".

I have the list of volts and amps here in the text, though. I erased the components from the background and I don't know if it will be easier to see with big white splotches or harder.

Amps draw
38.9mAmp = First tier alone with bjt led
42.6mA = Both Tiers with bjt led in first tier and 4 leds in 2 spots in second tier.
45.8mA = Both Tiers with just 4 leds in 2 spots in second tier.

I got a wide range of voltage differences between the same set of places I have been finding them and they are high in all the same places and low too.
This time the high looked high enough to see what a capacitor would capture from the highest spot.
The 2 wires that display the greatest voltage difference are

1- from the "orphan" which is turning on the row of 3 lights. You can see them on the left. (I call them secondary, but that is the wrong term)
2- to the negative battery rail.

the scope reads the waves as 11.5 at 12kHz but the capacitor was able to collect

9volts

Here is the pic. You can see how bright the lights are. there are bright reflections off the cup and the diode wire.

Reminder:
the orphan is the green lead (with the yellow clip) from the second tier joule thief whose transistor and resistor were removed.
This left that lead without function.

But it was putting one of the secondary wires from that upper joule thief into the neg. battery rail that made all the lights go very bright.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Thaelin on April 16, 2009, 11:09:00 PM

If willy is so upset at having a post deleted, he should look at my posts
in Dr. Stifllers thread. Like most of them get the ax. ;D Seems I worded
a post wrong and he took it bad and wouldn't consider anything else from
then on. Its not the end of the forum for sure. You just have to brush it off
and continue.

thaelin

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 16, 2009, 11:15:05 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on April 16, 2009, 10:31:39 PM
Yes, these are exactly the video courses I have been watching. Dr. Walter Lewin is fantastic! There are actually about 50 lectures in this series from the MIT website, and others. I freely admit that the math part of this, which is a huge part, is beyond my current understanding. He can go over my head about 5 minutes into the lectures but, I can then watch them again and again....sooner or later...something should sink in yes?

some maths parts are still over my head too, so don't worry too much about your current understanding.

those maths are not easy.
but, yes, watching them again and again will sink in.
even more if you take the time to learn side stuff like what sigma, kappa, omega, etc..., values are or what they define.

but for me, what is more important is the explanations, the examples, derive from those formulas.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 16, 2009, 11:23:46 PM

@TheNOP,

The DMM I have is a sears multimeter, they're cheap, have a diode test function and can take frequency measurements up to 10MHz... I have one DMM which does the same thangs as the other, except it can also test transistors. Although, it putts strange numbers out there...

Most any of the sears DMM's are cheap.

@jeanna,

Duty cycle is pulse duration ( time on ) divided by the pulse period (waveform from peak to peak). I'm guessing that the DMM does this math on it's own... ( from the frequency and the duty cycle ), I can get a rough estimate of the wave form, but only a stone-age estimate.

I tried to create a table, but the forum code would not work. I will use highlight next time.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 16, 2009, 11:29:54 PM

@TheNOP, Jadaro2600

Thankyou both, for bringing the Duty Cycle up, and explaining it so well.

Some of my past suggestions involve the Duty Cycle, but I put it differently, I am referring to the amount of time needed to fill a capacitor, then switching between that one and then filling another capacitor, then fill a number of them.
Then switch them all together and discharge them in one go.

C1 fill time   ST C2 fill time ST C3 fill time ST C4 fill time   ST C5 fill time ST C6 filll time ST C7 fill time   ST C8 fill time ST DumpTime RT
/|-------------------|-|-------------------|-|-------------------|-|--------------------|-|--------------------|-|--------------------|-|--------------------|-|--------------------|-|--------------- |--\

/    = each cycle begins (capacitor filling stages)
|-|    = division of times which shows where the switching stages occur
C1-8 = Tha actual time the control circuit is allowing that capacitor to fill, weather it be to 60%, or 70% or 80% or to 100% (controled by a Tank circuit)
ST = Switching State Times, between each capacitor reloads
DT = Dump Time, the time allowed to dump the contants of all capacitors together in one go, BOOM
RT = time allicated to begin the whole process again.
\    = cycle ends, and a new cycle begins.

A Pulce Width Modulation power supply does the same thing to control the speed of a DC motor.
But this different to the raising or lowering voltage.

My TWV I posted a few pages back uses the same principle to give the effect of the LEDS going round and round, but its circuit switched the LED ON, for a certain time, then the next LED is switched on and so it continues for eva.

Confession time 4 me, I had heard of the Duty Cycle years ago, but I forgot it, if that seems silly, but it happened, so thanks to Jeanna for asking her question "What is the Duty Cycle?"

@ TheNOP,
If you have a mobile ph (don't answer that), then use the camera function to post a photo of your JT, this is how I make all my photo and Tiny Videos posts here.
To those who have a very good grounding in the electronics fields, and are able to run rings around us others with your knowledge/explinations, and we know it took you years to accumilate this wealth of knowledge, but there are others here who havent any ideas on what it is exactly you may be talking about, (and are confused easily by new termiinology) so if you could give just the very basic explination in simple ways, then us (me) slow learners would have a betta chance of understanding it.

I see Bills drinking bird now very differently, as a Mechanical and electrical variable Duty Cycle controlled by "temperature" and "fuel" (water) and mother nature.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 17, 2009, 12:17:52 AM

Quote from: dog812 on April 16, 2009, 10:49:02 PM

Ok I made this schematic.With my mod of taking out the resistor. And only 6 paired winds on the torrid cuz that is all that would fit with 26 awg wire.
http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gx1fn9VA

Then i put 15 White LED's on and used a 68 OHM resistor for the reading. As you can see it says .9 Volts / 68 Ohm resistance = 13.2 Milliamp draw.
http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gx1fn7qr

Nice job, dog812,

So, what do you think about a secondary ?

Do you think you could drive leds from a secondary off your toroid? Maybe it would only use half of what you are using!

Good going,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dog812 on April 17, 2009, 12:28:49 AM

Quote from: jeanna on April 17, 2009, 12:17:52 AM
Nice job, dog812,

So, what do you think about a secondary ?

Do you think you could drive leds from a secondary off your toroid? Maybe it would only use half of what you are using!

Good going,

jeanna

I would but there was no more room on the torrid.. ill have to use smaller wire.
I was trying to keep it simple , for my hula hoop design.. so i can keep the labor costs down. One of these days ill make a JT'd hoop.

Do you thinki could keep the 6 paired winds with a 20 wind secondary? or would i need to add more then 6? Will the secondary just not work if there is not enough primary winds?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 17, 2009, 12:55:28 AM

Quote from: dog812 on April 17, 2009, 12:28:49 AM
I would but there was no more room on the torrid.. ill have to use smaller wire.
I was trying to keep it simple , for my hula hoop design.. so i can keep the labor costs down. One of these days ill make a JT'd hoop.

Do you thinki could keep the 6 paired winds with a 20 wind secondary? or would i need to add more then 6? Will the secondary just not work if there is not enough primary winds?

I think 6 is fine.
I am not sure, but your toroid looks like the tor-23 I buy from allelectronics. They are very small, but if you look at the XTree you will see lots of turns of mag wire, I have to look it up, but plenty of red 30 gauge mag wire fit. I just pull it tight and it slips through the space between wires and you could probably fit 20 or 30 turns in that one.. The zebra with kynar uses that 0.3 inch tor-23 and it has 7T,7T and 74Turns of kynar which is 30 gauge and the covering is a bit thicker than the varnish.

I forget you have a business purpose. I understand how the labor is an element., but either way you are going to need to string the leds along the circumference and solder the joints, or something like that, so winding a secondary is only a small addition

...

corse, maybe you are protecting the transistor with all those diodes. hmmm.

I dunno. I am just curious.

So, I will have to do it, I guess, huh?

good stuff.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 17, 2009, 01:04:35 AM

@jadaro2600
thanks, i will look in sear catalog

@all
a more complete infos on duty cycle:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_cycle
witch resume to what me and jadaro2600 have sayed

Quote from: electricme on April 16, 2009, 11:29:54 PM
To those who have a very good grounding in the electronics fields, and are able to run rings around us others with your knowledge/explinations, and we know it took you years to accumilate this wealth of knowledge, but there are others here who havent any ideas on what it is exactly you may be talking about, (and are confused easily by new termiinology) so if you could give just the very basic explination in simple ways, then us (me) slow learners would have a betta chance of understanding it.

things that are simple for me might not be to everyone, i know that.
problem is i can't make it more clearer then what i have wrote so far.
that is why i post reference links as much as possible about what i say.

to explain things any better would require more then just a few posts.
it would require 3 years of teaching at 3 ~ 4 hours per day.
that is what it took me to get my diploma 30 years ago.

if i ask you to do a test, to learn something specific.
will you be able to make something out of it if you don't even know the base ?

making experiments for learning is great.
but you have to sit down, think about the results, and understand the "what and why" before moving to the next experiment.
and if you do other experiments, it is better be to understand more clearly what you didn't understand in the previous one.
if you don't, you are missing a lot and might not be able to understand the next results either.
then term the circuit as weird, strange, illogical, magic, etc...

@all
to master the joule thief, at low or high currents, you need to get total control over the base of the transistor.
RLC, RC circuits are one way to achive this.

to get the highest voltage, at the highest currents, you also need to master induction and transformer as well.

untill you understand why i say this, you won't have much succes.
unless you are really lucky.
but then, due to componants tolerences, not all will be able to reproduce, maybe even yourself.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 17, 2009, 01:29:35 AM

Quote from: electricme on April 16, 2009, 11:29:54 PM
@TheNOP, Jadaro2600

Thankyou both, for bringing the Duty Cycle up, and explaining it so well.

Some of my past suggestions involve the Duty Cycle, but I put it differently, I am referring to the amount of time needed to fill a capacitor, then switching between that one and then filling another capacitor, then fill a number of them.
Then switch them all together and discharge them in one go.

C1 fill time   ST C2 fill time ST C3 fill time ST C4 fill time   ST C5 fill time ST C6 filll time ST C7 fill time   ST C8 fill time ST DumpTime RT
/|-------------------|-|-------------------|-|-------------------|-|--------------------|-|--------------------|-|--------------------|-|--------------------|-|--------------------|-|--------------- |--\

/    = each cycle begins (capacitor filling stages)
|-|    = division of times which shows where the switching stages occur
C1-8 = Tha actual time the control circuit is allowing that capacitor to fill, weather it be to 60%, or 70% or 80% or to 100% (controled by a Tank circuit)
ST = Switching State Times, between each capacitor reloads
DT = Dump Time, the time allowed to dump the contants of all capacitors together in one go, BOOM
RT = time allicated to begin the whole process again.
\    = cycle ends, and a new cycle begins.

A Pulce Width Modulation power supply does the same thing to control the speed of a DC motor.
But this different to the raising or lowering voltage.

My TWV I posted a few pages back uses the same principle to give the effect of the LEDS going round and round, but its circuit switched the LED ON, for a certain time, then the next LED is switched on and so it continues for eva.

Confession time 4 me, I had heard of the Duty Cycle years ago, but I forgot it, if that seems silly, but it happened, so thanks to Jeanna for asking her question "What is the Duty Cycle?"

@ TheNOP,
If you have a mobile ph (don't answer that), then use the camera function to post a photo of your JT, this is how I make all my photo and Tiny Videos posts here.
To those who have a very good grounding in the electronics fields, and are able to run rings around us others with your knowledge/explinations, and we know it took you years to accumilate this wealth of knowledge, but there are others here who havent any ideas on what it is exactly you may be talking about, (and are confused easily by new termiinology) so if you could give just the very basic explination in simple ways, then us (me) slow learners would have a betta chance of understanding it.

I see Bills drinking bird now very differently, as a Mechanical and electrical variable Duty Cycle controlled by "temperature" and "fuel" (water) and mother nature.

jim

I brought this up a while ago, I mentioned something called a Greinacher / Villard circuit. THese are also called Cockroff Walton circuits....although this is component intensive, it would do basically what you have mentioned here. Here is a picture of one. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Stacked_Villard_cascade.svg/733px-Stacked_Villard_cascade.svg.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Stacked_Villard_cascade.svg/733px-Stacked_Villard_cascade.svg.png)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage_multiplier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage_multiplier)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockcroft-Walton_generator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockcroft-Walton_generator)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 17, 2009, 01:42:19 AM

@TheNOP
Thankyou, I have just been, read the wiki on the Duty Cycle.

TA ;)

If I fed 1000v into a coil with 1000 turns of thin wire as its primary
and, if the secondary had 14 turns, would I get 14v out?

If I wound the secondary with a much thicker wire, as well, would this allow the output to be higher in amperage?

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 17, 2009, 01:58:23 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 17, 2009, 01:29:35 AM
I brought this up a while ago, I mentioned something called a Greinacher / Villard circuit. THese are also called Cockroff Walton circuits....although this is component intensive, it would do basically what you have mentioned here. Here is a picture of one. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Stacked_Villard_cascade.svg/733px-Stacked_Villard_cascade.svg.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Stacked_Villard_cascade.svg/733px-Stacked_Villard_cascade.svg.png)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage_multiplier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage_multiplier)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockcroft-Walton_generator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockcroft-Walton_generator)

voltage doubler don't provide lots of output currents.

might wort testing with a jt pickup coil(few hundreds volts), 2+ doubler stages and cfls.
more then 4 stage might become risky without good insulation between the caps and diodes, insulation on the trace side would be needed too.

if i remember right, currents is based on the caps values.
the higher the capacitance, the higher the output currents.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 17, 2009, 02:24:45 AM

Quote from: electricme on April 17, 2009, 01:42:19 AM
If I fed 1000v into a coil with 1000 turns of thin wire as its primary
and, if the secondary had 14 turns, would I get 14v out?

yes.
less the inevitable lost and that lost depend mainly on your core and wire resistance.

Quote from: electricme on April 17, 2009, 01:42:19 AM
If I wound the secondary with a much thicker wire, as well, would this allow the output to be higher in amperage?

no
well, not exactly.

the currents at the secondary is determine by the primary and the turn ratio.
less the inevitable lost, as you can guess it by now. ;)

your secondary need wire size that can handle the currents.
making it with bigger wire size then it take(require), is sayed to be a waist of copper by the industries.
meaning it does not have any significant effect.

for me, more can also do less, bigger wires have less resistance.
but remember, it does not have any significant effect, meaning the gain is almost none.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 17, 2009, 04:16:42 AM

An interesting website: http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-15.htm (http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-15.htm) talks about pulses prolonging battery life with certain types of batteries.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 17, 2009, 04:29:56 AM

@all

I just came accross some interresting information which might us all in out JT endeavours.

Flyback Inverters for dummies http://www.dos4ever.com/flyback/flyback.html

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 17, 2009, 05:10:01 AM

@Jadaro2600,
Thankyou for your links to the Walton Crockcroft web sites. I will now go and take a look at them.

@ TheNOP
Thankyou also for your reply

I posted my original questions to see if there would be an answer forthcoming, and the answers have arrived.

Now I can "see" that torrids are not the only method one can use to make a hi voltage, but I also knew that the WC is used in some "bug zappers and in some negative iron air purefiers.
I came accross a web page which had a Microwave oven transformer modification, but this trannie can put out 2000 volts from 240v primary.

My main reason on posting, was, what would occur, if I fed the JT output back into a transformer, and get it to make an amp output.
I'm sorry if I was not too clear about this, but I somehow think I have my answer. :P ;)

Now I am thinking we need to be switching amps into/through the Joule Thief to get a usable amperage output.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on April 17, 2009, 07:30:48 AM

@electricme

Thanks for the link!!!

@jeanna

Nice work! Its looking really good!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on April 17, 2009, 07:44:32 AM

Quote from: electricme on April 16, 2009, 11:29:54 PM
A Pulce Width Modulation power supply does the same thing to control the speed of a DC motor.
But this different to the raising or lowering voltage.

My TWV I posted a few pages back uses the same principle to give the effect of the LEDS going round and round, but its circuit switched the LED ON, for a certain time, then the next LED is switched on and so it continues for eva.

Here are some simple PWM and expandable light sequencer circuits I have been planning on combining with a JT. Have not had the time yet, but maybe someone else does :P

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 17, 2009, 09:59:50 AM

@all

Congratulations to all that have attained success!
I cannot deviate from my goal. Feedback to the source!!!

@hazens1

Which is the correct circuit for the 555 assisted 43 LEDs. (photo included)
I was going to ask what was that IC circuit there, but you posted some circuits that hint that it is a LM555.

thank you in advance.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on April 17, 2009, 12:19:27 PM

@ Hazens1

I have tried to replicate your 7-7-70-70 1 inch coil with no luck, I think due to the fact that the wire is all the same color, so I must have crossed something. Could you post some additional pictures so I can see where everything is going?

Thank you very much

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 17, 2009, 02:14:12 PM

Quote from: electricme on April 17, 2009, 05:10:01 AM
Now I can "see" that torrids are not the only method one can use to make a hi voltage, but I also knew that the WC is used in some "bug zappers and in some negative iron air purefiers.

even with voltage doubler there are losses, less then with transformer, but they have draw back too.
currents limitations is only one of them.

Quote from: electricme on April 17, 2009, 05:10:01 AM
My main reason on posting, was, what would occur, if I fed the JT output back into a transformer, and get it to make an amp output.
I'm sorry if I was not too clear about this, but I somehow think I have my answer. :P ;)

Now I am thinking we need to be switching amps into/through the Joule Thief to get a usable amperage output.

it will work to some extend.
i remind you that jeanna showed that she can light leds with only one turn on the pickup coil.
assuming a 7:1 ratio, the currents should be 7 times greater then the primary and voltage 7 times lower.

what you can do is make the collector coil 1000 turns and the pickup coil 1 turn.
the problem will be: is the transistor will be able to withstand the mag field collapse spikes...

an other side effect will be that the load won't change the primary's impedence the same way.
you can concider this as a "good" or as a "bad" thing depending on what you are expecting of your circuit.
ex: primary currents going high with more load, or down with more load.

in electronic there are always tradeoff, choices to make, to get the job done more efficiently and how we want it.
feeding a transformer into a transformer is, in my opignion, not the best thing to do.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 17, 2009, 03:05:42 PM

@all

I have resumed to testing on the mk1 hv , i made a diode bridge from 1n4007 , since my other bridges could not withstand the voltages , so 15 foot pickup coil , it gives me anything between 850 and 500 v rectified dc playing with the base resistor .

I think the pickup coil is a bit to much , i will try shorter ones , this one is strange when charging a cap it starts slowly and then start its high pitch noise and start charging fast real fast .

@gadget

I will send you one core as soon as i can !

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on April 17, 2009, 03:34:44 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on April 17, 2009, 09:59:50 AM
Which is the correct circuit for the 555 assisted 43 LEDs. (photo included)
I was going to ask what was that IC circuit there, but you posted some circuits that hint that it is a LM555.

Those circuits I posted are future things I want to implement into a JT and have nothing to do with the 43 LED test that I did.

That chip is a 600volt 1amp Bridge Rectifier from Goldmine: http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16049 (http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16049)

The circuit posted in the pic is just a classic JT with a resistor parallel with a cap on the Base coil.

I whipped up a quick diagram. Hope this helps..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on April 17, 2009, 04:25:52 PM

@Mk1

Do you have any pics showing voltages and other data you can post? Your coil sound impressive!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 17, 2009, 04:47:40 PM

Quote from: stprue on April 17, 2009, 04:25:52 PM
@Mk1

Do you have any pics showing voltages and other data you can post? Your coil sound impressive!

Well its a regular mk1 design the pickup coil are made from 30 gauge 15 foot on each side. 1k trimpot 2n2222
I wish i a had a pic to show you .But to be honest people don't even believe i am getting 140 v dc even with a picture ,
So i don't really care , but it would be great for believers . The truth is within all of us , some just can't believe , i believe its a illness of hour modern world , to much tv mind control.

The plan to make it has been posted for a long time.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 17, 2009, 05:12:34 PM

@stprue,

MK1's coils ARE impressive.
Give it a try. I am here too.

I never built the high voltage one, but I have built 2 real MK toroids and 3 sort of but not exactly the same way.
I get the concept and can help with details, if MK1 cannot.

Just post your questions and I or MK1 will try to help. OK?

Also, ist has shown his HV here and I believe on youtube.
You might search on youtube and watch ist's videos about these.
They are good and ought to be able to help too.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 17, 2009, 05:28:21 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on April 17, 2009, 04:47:40 PM
But to be honest people don't even believe i am getting 140 v dc even with a picture

i don't see why they don't.

i am getting more then 140v on some of my toroids.
2 of them even go over the 500 volts range of my cheap meter.
but i must confess, i am not using 1.5 volts, i use 3 volts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 17, 2009, 07:29:42 PM

Quote from: hazens1 on April 17, 2009, 03:34:44 PM
Those circuits I posted are future things I want to implement into a JT and have nothing to do with the 43 LED test that I did.

That chip is a 600volt 1amp Bridge Rectifier from Goldmine: http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16049 (http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16049)

The circuit posted in the pic is just a classic JT with a resistor parallel with a cap on the Base coil.

I whipped up a quick diagram. Hope this helps..

Thank you @hazens1 !

You know, I am trying to get feedback to the source and if I have success your circuit is on the list to replicate. Others to name a few are @jeanna's and @mk1's circuits.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 17, 2009, 09:09:58 PM

Can someone try to replicate what I have done with the capacitor in place of the resistor? ...it's actually a really simple switch, just make sure the cap is discharged before you insert it, or before turning the circuit on.

You can do this by temporarily shorting the cap with a piece of wire while it's in the circuit or by inserting it while it's out of the circuit. The capacitance needed is dependent on the induction effects in the toroid.

Here is another diagram. I feel as If I'm the only one attempting this.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 17, 2009, 10:07:32 PM

@Jadaro,
You may have replaced the resistor with a cap, but my circuits are not like yours so what good would this do?

I am not sure which cap you want also. Your drawing shows 2. I could give it a shot, so please tell me which cap in your drawing is replacing the resistor in your drawing...

My resistor is always at the base of the transistor as it is what controls the frequency. I have had a cap there parallel with the resistor which is like what gadget did. It seems to smooth things out a lot. Trouble is it smooths out the spikes and the special effects caused by the spikes sometimes goes away.
That is probably more to do with the capacitance than the fact of the cap being there I used 101pF to 104pF (remember the last digit means number of following zeros.)

@All,

I found a new and exciting way to read my 2 tier circuit. I KNEW there was a figure 8 in there somewhere. I got major volts in the rectified capacitor today, by setting the AC input to the bridge from the orphaned Emitter wire on one side and the secondary wire wrapped around the same toroid and in a positive area.

The same goes for putting the AC input points going into the bridge being the Collector wire and the other secondary wire which is in the neg spot in the circuit.

A scope shot says even a bit more.

Have a look. I found a place where the light is good. at least in the late afternoon.

The first tier toroid here is the MK.8 which is almost exactly a MK1 and the XTree is still on the second tier.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 17, 2009, 10:32:20 PM

Since I have the scope and camera ready, I put a 104pF across the Collector and Positive rail .

The second tier shot I took before just changed to this.

Notice the drop of 80 volts down to around 20 volts. This is what I mean about the caps . They make nice waveforms, but colser to a sinewave at a big cost. I don't know which is better or rather more useful?

Another quick pic.

jeanna
EDIT
On looking at it again and comparing the 2 scope shots, it seems that the cap has only permitted the rising waves to be incorporated in the pattern. It is all above the x axis, and the number of total waves is closer to the number of upward spikes than the total which has many more downward ones.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 17, 2009, 11:01:24 PM

About the capacitor, I wasn't aware of the notation.

When I post a diagram, the number is the number as it is measured with my DMM. 0.120uF is just that.

I see, then this would be why I'm getting lower results with my setup.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 17, 2009, 11:17:28 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 17, 2009, 11:01:24 PM
When I post a diagram, the number is the number as it is measured with my DMM. 0.120uF is just that.
I see, then this would be why I'm getting lower results with my setup.

I don't have a dmm that tells capacitance. That is cool.

If I helped, I am glad.
I was amazed myself to see the 85volts hit this place in the circuit took with that cap.
I better remove it before I forget! :P

@Hazens,

Would you be willing to share your ebay source for those leds?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 17, 2009, 11:19:40 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 17, 2009, 09:09:58 PM
The capacitance needed is dependent on the induction effects in the toroid.

you are playing with a RCL circuit that have almost 0 resistance(wire resistance only).
changing the cap value is changing the frequency.

for a ~ 10k frequency
i use a tuned circuit, a 5 uH and 47uF, to the base(4 turns).
a ~10 ohms ~10 uF also work.

i can even go higher then 10k Hertz with my home made laminated iron cores and still have go results. are they better at a higher frequencies ?, i don't know because lack of proper tool.
but they do go down with a tuned circuit for 400k Hertz.
same for my power supply toroids.
i have not calculate for other frequencies yet, my caps collection is a bit low.
mean i don't have a lot of different caps values.

my only one ferrites toroids need a higher frequency and more turns to work ok.
tuned circuit 400k Hertz
it is a black one, no paint on it.

i can only guess the real frequency tho, because the base coil also affect the tuned circuit.

tuning the frequency to your core is a key factor.
reducing the off time is an other, for maximising the currents.

are you seeing something else ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 18, 2009, 01:57:02 AM

@jeanna
always keep an eye on the frequency when playing with caps at the transistor's base.
get it as high as possible while looking for the best output voltage.
then you will know what is the best frequency for that specific toroid.

you have a scope, you can do this without having to calculate componantes values, by trail an error.
i am sure you will get the hang of it very quickly. ;)

if you notice, not only the trace as change in the pictures you posted, the frequency changed too.

if you go for a lower currents as possible for, lets say, only 3 leds, to extend the battery's life.
then lower the frequency as much as it is possible.
use a piece of iron instead of a toroid.

if you go for cfl at lowest current as possible, then use insulated laminated iron
and lower the frequency as much as it is possible

for each applications use the most appropriate materials and componants...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 18, 2009, 02:10:12 AM

I'm having issue with my secondary, it's not picking up as much as the coil to collector.

I've seen all of the MK designs, I've even come up with a few of my own, ..the most I'm getting is around 100v or so.

any suggestions?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 18, 2009, 02:38:13 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 18, 2009, 02:10:12 AM
I'm having issue with my secondary, it's not picking up as much as the coil to collector.

I've seen all of the MK designs, I've even come up with a few of my own, ..the most I'm getting is around 100v or so.

any suggestions?

keep on playing with RC or LC to the base.
since you have a frequency counter in your DMM, you can do as i suggested to jeanna, trial and error.
changing the cap and/or the resistance and/or inductance.

litz wire and a high frequency core will help at very high frequency.
adding more turns on the collector's coil will help too, but it change the ratio, so you will need more pickup turns as well.

me, a 556 dual timer to feed the transistor base is my next step.
i plan for a separate power supply ( 7805 )

p.s. do you have your DMM model number ?
i can't find any meters at all in sears's online catalog.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on April 18, 2009, 03:51:55 AM

Quote from: jeanna on April 17, 2009, 11:17:28 PM
@Hazens,

Would you be willing to share your ebay source for those leds?

thank you,

jeanna

I will never reveal my secrets :P :P :P

Ha, here is the exact item that I recieved. Still some left. I've tested all 100 and only 3 of them did not work. CCC = Cheap China Crap, but real cheap for what you get ;D At about 10 cents a pop, you don't feel to bad when you pop a few. Some of the sources on ebay you can get like 500 for less than $50 or I've even seen 1000 for less than $80 before.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=180341278500&Category=66954&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26its%3DI%26otn%3D1 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=180341278500&Category=66954&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26its%3DI%26otn%3D1)

Here is a direct link to all of his auctions http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/dxy_dxyduan (http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/dxy_dxyduan)

He even has 100 watt 6000 lumen element for less than $100. I've seen one of these before and they put out as much light as a 1500 watt halogen 8) 8) 8)

I dropped the test circuit down to just 15 of them and here is a night time pic of it after running for 36 hours.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 18, 2009, 04:55:11 AM

@TheNOP,

I've played with the circuit, it's really sensitive.

I'm getting better results on voltage with the Helmholtz style inductors. I'm able to light a Neon with it, and I'm getting 160v, but there is no secondary. If I could get ahold of some basic ferrite rods, I could most likely get a great deal more out of the same style of setup.

It's confusing that the voltage on a collapsing magnetic field in an inductor is in the same direction as the current, I would think that there would be a reverse in the polarity, but I guess not.

@all, or Mark

Can one of you with an mk coil, ie, a toroid with three windings, two primaries, and a secondary, try something for me... namely this circuit. I'm currently strapped for time, and I haven't made any of these coils just yet.

This is a basic JT circuit absent the power source. I was wondering if adding the blue path would increase voltage readings on the secondary ( orange ).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 18, 2009, 07:50:09 AM

@ jadaro2600

Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 18, 2009, 04:55:11 AM
It's confusing that the voltage on a collapsing magnetic field in an inductor is in the same direction as the current, I would think that there would be a reverse in the polarity, but I guess not.

The direction of the current flow in the coil does reverse when the magnetic field collapes. Look at the direction of your diode. The voltage polarities across the collector coil must be reversed for current to flow through the diode in that direction.

I think you know enough math to understand the following. This explains why you are not getting more voltage across your secondary coil.

where:

Vp = voltage of pickup coil
Vc = voltage of collector coil
Np = turns in pickup coil
Nc = turns in collector coil

If the pickup coil and the collector coil are assumed to be two coils making up a transformer, then standard transformer theory gives the following equation

Vp / Vc = Np / Nc

which can also be written as

Vp = Vc Np / Nc

Therefore the pickup coil voltage will never be higher than the collector coil voltage unless it has more turns than the collector coil.

.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on April 18, 2009, 08:01:30 AM

Quote from: stprue on April 17, 2009, 12:19:27 PM
@ Hazens1

I have tried to replicate your 7-7-70-70 1 inch coil with no luck, I think due to the fact that the wire is all the same color, so I must have crossed something. Could you post some additional pictures so I can see where everything is going?

Thank you very much

Pics of that coil can't get any better than what is already on here. Have you made the 7-7-70 first before adding the second Pickup coil? If you can get the single Pickup version working, the 2nd Pickup should not be very hard to add. Getting some colored wire definately helps. The link I posted before for the newbie wire is really good and cheap wire.

The pic below shows a pretty good shot of a 10-10-80 which is wound the same as the 7-7-70 just with a different toroid. Shows where everything hooks up.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 18, 2009, 09:47:34 AM

@all

It seems that there is a race of how much voltage you can produce. That is cool, but it is not what we need now.
The race should be about how much voltage I can feedback to the source battery from my coils.

Then when you can maintain your configured circuit working with its own produced energy, you can use it to keep the voltage you have attained working for as long as the battery resist the process.

Lets race for the retroalimentation of the joule thief first. We have the voltages attained already.
Remember this is just my opinion and I could be wrong.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dog812 on April 18, 2009, 01:17:59 PM

@hazens1

Wow those are beautiful coils. I wish i wasnt limited to a 1/2 inch torrid, which i am in my application.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 18, 2009, 01:18:39 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on April 18, 2009, 09:47:34 AM

Lets race for the retroalimentation of the joule thief first. We have the voltages attained already.
Remember this is just my opinion and I could be wrong.

Jesus

Hi Jesus,

While I tend to agree with that, I must remember, so I am reminding you also, that we all have different interests which are driving the ideas and inspirations that we are coming up with.

When we put them together, we will have the whole picture and the whole invention. (indeed many inventions!)

I believe this can best be accomplished only when we act from our own personal inspiration, because THAT is the source of our creativity.

The help we are constantly giving each other, is how I picture an earth paradise. This is my personal image on it.

thank you and everybody,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 18, 2009, 02:09:01 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on April 18, 2009, 01:57:02 AM
always keep an eye on the frequency when playing with caps at the transistor's base.
get it as high as possible while looking for the best output voltage.
then you will know what is the best frequency for that specific toroid.

Your suggestion looks like a good one, but I am not sure what you suggesting for me to do.

When you say

Quoteget it as high as possible while looking for the best output voltage.

Are you saying to change the frequency by changing the number of turns?
Are you saying to change the value of the cap when you say get IT as high as possible?
Perhaps you are suggesting thai I should be reading the scope at a different frequency value?

Quoteif you notice, not only the trace has change in the pictures you posted, the frequency changed too.

Yes, and this is one of the many changes that are happening together that are making my learning how to use my new scope more difficult. (since I still can't figure how to see the dc of a battery!)

What do you mean I noticed the frequency has changed too?
Is it this:
I have the frequency set to 2.4KHz. This is the space of time between the 2 vertical markers.
In one circuit the number of pulses is more than the other. Is that the frequency change you are talking about?

I thought I had all these things worked out. But your questions are making me unsure that I have.

...

Quotefor each applications use the most appropriate materials and components...

I will have to leave that part alone for a while. I will return to it for sure.

Just for clarity,

Quotewhen playing with caps at the transistor's base.

jadaro's drawing had 2 caps.
My little test that produced the second scopeshot, was made by adding a 104pF cap across the Collector and Common. not at the base where the resistor is.
I may have tested the wrong place for him.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: powercat on April 18, 2009, 02:56:20 PM

Hi all
I regularly look in on this thread but don't post BUT MyLOW wheel + Joule Thief
from [TinselKoala] at alt.snakeoil ??? ???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYQM8WbCq2Y

cat

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 18, 2009, 04:20:56 PM

Thank you @jeanna !

Thank you @powercat !

On another video he is making the Mylou wheel to turn with a pulsed coil. So it could be misleading the idea that it is turning by itself and also turning a bicycle dynamo to run a joule thief.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpcB3JqKAiQ&feature=channel

Time will tell.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on April 18, 2009, 10:36:22 PM

@all . Hi . Ok i have been given some Parts for the earth battery and various know values of torroids from Greg at Alternative Systems. have a look . Our Goal Is 1000 leds from a special Jt and Earth battery
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3500.msg172636#msg172636

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 18, 2009, 11:12:20 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on April 18, 2009, 09:47:34 AM
@all

It seems that there is a race of how much voltage you can produce. That is cool, but it is not what we need now.
The race should be about how much voltage I can feedback to the source battery from my coils.

Then when you can maintain your configured circuit working with its own produced energy, you can use it to keep the voltage you have attained working for as long as the battery resist the process.

Lets race for the retroalimentation of the joule thief first. We have the voltages attained already.
Remember this is just my opinion and I could be wrong.

Jesus

we are not at this point yet, at least not me.

currently, you will not be able to feedback to any battery, on the market, efficiently enough.
the jt does not have more output then input, maybe with the young effect, i don't know if it will ever be possible.

we have something that is working here.
what i want, is to upgrade it, be able to do more with less.

while you are dreaming of perpetual motion and ou,
i am dreaming of heating, lightning, my home, cook my food, etc...,
on a small 1.5 volts battery, without even going anywhere near ou...
it that sound more unrealistic then ou ?

Quote from: jeanna on April 18, 2009, 02:09:01 PM
Your suggestion looks like a good one, but I am not sure what you suggesting for me to do.

When you say
Are you saying to change the frequency by changing the number of turns?
Are you saying to change the value of the cap when you say get IT as high as possible?
Perhaps you are suggesting thai I should be reading the scope at a different frequency value?

be methodic, one change at a time.

try different caps in parrallel with your jt's potentiometer at the base.
look the frequency on your scope while sweeping the pot from one side to the other really slowly.

write down the cap values and minimum/maximum frequencies you can get with that cap.
also write down the maximum voltage and at what frequency it was.

when you have tryed at least 3 different caps, look at the data you wroted down.
then guess what caps values you should try next in order to get a higher voltage.

once you have found the right frequency for you core keep that cap and resistor values, then move forward.
try with more or less turns on the collector coil and pickup(s)

always make sure that, if the frequency you have found change when you add/remove turns to the collector's coil,
you must set it back to the right(found) frequency before measuring the output currents.
also for each turn you add/remove to the collector's coil you must also add/remove the same number of turn(s) to the pickup's coil before measuring the output currents.
when currents start to lower, undo the last change, then move to add turns on the pickup's coil only,
untill you reach max voltage, or, remove the pickup coil and re-turn it/them to the voltage you need.

Quote from: jeanna on April 18, 2009, 02:09:01 PM
Yes, and this is one of the many changes that are happening together that are making my learning how to use my new scope more difficult. (since I still can't figure how to see the dc of a battery!)

if you have a 12 volts battery, try this:
the horizontal trace in the middle of scope screen is the zero volts line.

the volts divide marker are horizontal small bars, on the left side of your screen
the scope vdiv setting set how many volts per screen divisions.
at 10 vdiv you might not see the trace move.
try on 1 volt per division.

connect your scope probes to the 12 volts battery and you should see that line going up or down.
if you remove the probe the line goes back to the center

Quote from: jeanna on April 18, 2009, 02:09:01 PM
What do you mean I noticed the frequency has changed too?
Is it this:
I have the frequency set to 2.4KHz. This is the space of time between the 2 vertical markers.
In one circuit the number of pulses is more than the other. Is that the frequency change you are talking about?

2.4 khz is the frequency, not a setting.
that is the place i want you to keep an eye on, the Hz values.

the settings on a scope are in time units, second(s), milisecond(ms), microsecond(us), nanosecond(ns), etc...
they are for the screen trace resolution, to help you distinguish the cycles.

frequency = [number of cycle(s) between the 2 vertical markers] / time unit

your scope calculate it for you, like a frequency counter.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on April 18, 2009, 11:58:17 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on April 18, 2009, 11:12:20 PM
we are not at this point yet, at least not me.

currently, you will not be able to feedback to any battery, on the market, efficiently enough.
the jt does not have more output then input, maybe with the young effect, i don't know if it will ever be possible.

we have something that is working here.
what i want, is to upgrade it, be able to do more with less.

while you are dreaming of perpetual motion and ou,
i am dreaming of heating, lightning, my home, cook my food, etc...,
on a small 1.5 volts battery, without even going anywhere near ou...
it that sound more unrealistic then ou ?
be methodic, one change at a time.

try different caps in parrallel with your jt's potentiometer at the base.
look the frequency on your scope while sweeping the pot from one side to the other really slowly.

write down the cap values and minimum/maximum frequencies you can get with that cap.
also write down the maximum voltage and at what frequency it was.

when you have tryed at least 3 different caps, look at the data you wroted down.
then guess what caps values you should try next in order to get a higher voltage.

once you have found the right frequency for you core keep that cap and resistor values, then move forward.
try with more or less turns on the collector coil and pickup(s)

always make sure that, if the frequency you have found change when you add/remove turns to the collector's coil,
you must set it back to the right(found) frequency before measuring the output currents.
also for each turn you add/remove to the collector's coil you must also add/remove the same number of turn(s) to the pickup's coil before measuring the output currents.
when currents start to lower, undo the last change, then move to add turns on the pickup's coil only,
untill you reach max voltage, or, remove the pickup coil and re-turn it/them to the voltage you need.
if you have a 12 volts battery, try this:
the horizontal trace in the middle of scope screen is the zero volts line.

the volts divide marker are horizontal small bars, on the left side of your screen
the scope vdiv setting set how many volts per screen divisions.
at 10 vdiv you might not see the trace move.
try on 1 volt per division.

connect your scope probes to the 12 volts battery and you should see that line going up or down.
if you remove the probe the line goes back to the center

2.4 khz is the frequency, not a setting.
that is the place i want you to keep an eye on, the Hz values.

the settings on a scope are in time units, second(s), milisecond(ms), microsecond(us), nanosecond(ns), etc...
they are for the screen trace resolution, to help you distinguish the cycles.

frequency = [number of cycle(s) between the 2 vertical markers] / time unit

your scope calculate it for you, like a frequency counter.

Ou is easily obtained with the right control electronics and power sources . .....flip flop flip flop 2 sources 0 volt electronics .Yes there is such a thing much like a young effect .one of the keys in this setup is to oscillate at the lowest possible voltage and current . an example is a zero threshold voltage n-channel FET .. These are new on the market and can oscillate at0.16 volts ..
Gadget .

Gadget ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 18, 2009, 11:59:15 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on April 18, 2009, 11:12:20 PM

Nice goals, Thanks for sharing where you are coming from.

Quotebe methodic, one change at a time.

of course.

Quotetry different caps in parallel with your jt's potentiometer at the base.

I did a lot of that before I got the scope. I only found a straight line. More resistance, less light in the jt or in the secondary run leds.. Less resistance, more light.

I know gadget did this with the fuji with success. I haven't seen a sweet spot by changing the resistance. (I may have the other day.)

..

Quotelook the frequency on your scope while sweeping the pot from one side to the other really slowly.

What am I looking for?
...
...

Quote
2.4 khz is the frequency, not a setting.
that is the place i want you to keep an eye on, the Hz values.

the settings on a scope are in time units, second(s), milisecond(ms), microsecond(us), nanosecond(ns), etc...
they are for the screen trace resolution, to help you distinguish the cycles.

frequency = [number of cycle(s) between the 2 vertical markers] / time unit

your scope calculate it for you, like a frequency counter.

I don't get a number except in dB that might describe a frequency. I think dB's are amplitude, so I don't know about that.
I will look around this thing again.

I can set the amount of time between markers and the scope tells me what the setting is in terms of seconds and Hz. This is what you can see on the screen. I had set the time to 2.4kHz.

I am most likely missing what to do to get the scope to calculate the frequency. So far, the only thing the scope is calculating is the volts and some other things like rms and dB if I want them.

thanks for your help. I guess my biggest question is.
What am I looking for in the frequency when it is right?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 19, 2009, 12:13:27 AM

@all

News about the mk1 High voltage , dual 80 inch pickup coil , 850 v rectified dc its about 70 turns , 2n2222 with 1k base resistor diode bridge made of 1n4007. Any idea what i will be doing with this one ? And this is from a one inch toroid .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on April 19, 2009, 12:25:58 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on April 19, 2009, 12:13:27 AM
@all

News about the mk1 High voltage , dual 80 inch pickup coil , 850 v rectified dc its about 70 turns , 2n2222 with 1k base resistor diode bridge made of 1n4007. Any idea what i will be doing with this one ? And this is from a one inch toroid .

Mark

WOW Mark . nice Man . I still want one . I will treasure it and hide it for the Times to come .. . need something let me know .
Gadget

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 19, 2009, 12:33:33 AM

@gadget

I will send you one , pretty soon i am waiting for my check , so i have enough to mail it to you , so i will need to wait 2 weeks.

I like the cap flop idea , it should work great .

Mark

I also found this little thing , look at the power input.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 19, 2009, 12:54:32 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on April 19, 2009, 12:13:27 AM
News about the mk1 High voltage , dual 80 inch pickup coil , 850 v rectified dc its about 70 turns , 2n2222 with 1k base resistor diode bridge made of 1n4007. Any idea what i will be doing with this one ? And this is from a one inch toroid .

Mark

Very nice, Mark,
And a one inch toroid too. You must have used thinner wire to get it all in there?? 850volts. Watch out! no leds for you!

----

I had some success with my MK.8 today.
This is made going up then down then across then up then down. This only has 10 x 4 so 40 turns with 6T,6T primary not split. ( that's why it is not MK1)

It was in the second tier circuit, where there is no transistor at all,

I lit 24 white leds IN SERIES!!!

The other cool thing today was that I was able to light 3 yellow leds in the first tier in series , and use an extra secondary to drive the second tier with blazing bright leds.
I am sure the frequency is important in what is happening in the second tier. I pulled one wire out of a led leaving only one secondary wire on the + leg and the led stayed lit. (I don't need to say that shouldn't happen.)

But I must say I am drawing two conclusions from all this second tier thing.
1-It is frequency as I just said,
2-The total volts produced by one battery running 2 jtc's in stepwise fashion is often less than just one jtc with secondary if that is wound well.

I would say this second result is what I have been studying for the last week. I wanted to see if one battery powering the jtc in stepwise fashion would give more useful power or not.

I will see more of what it can or cannot actually do in the next few days. meters can only promise. I want the full delivery before I am sure it is there (or not there.)

thank you all,

jeanna.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 19, 2009, 01:01:17 AM

@jeanna

I forgot to mention 80 inch 30 gauge , so 6.666666666666666666666 feet. Tested on a aaa battery.

Mark

Edit Jeanna nice work there 24 led in series !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 19, 2009, 01:40:00 AM

Quote from: jeanna on April 18, 2009, 11:59:15 PM
I did a lot of that before I got the scope. I only found a straight line. More resistance, less light in the jt or in the secondary run leds.. Less resistance, more light.

you have, but now you are not in the dark anymore, you have a scope that show you the frequency.
you are not in the dark like me anymore.
but yet, i still manage to get "good" results by other means, that are not exactly as strait forward as a tool that can tell me the frequency.

Quote from: jeanna on April 18, 2009, 11:59:15 PM
I know gadget did this with the fuji with success. I haven't seen a sweet spot by changing the resistance. (I may have the other day.)

with just the resistance, you only rely on the feedback through the base coil for the frequency.
by using a tuned "resonator"(RC circuit), you can make the frequency higher.

Quote from: jeanna on April 18, 2009, 11:59:15 PM
What am I looking for?

depends on your goal.
first, the best frequency for your toroid.
best frequency = higher voltage/currents and less loss.

Quote from: jeanna on April 18, 2009, 11:59:15 PM
What am I looking for in the frequency when it is right?

nothing in the frequency itself.

when the frequency is right for you toroid then,
you will have less loss and will have almost reached the maximum currents your jt can provide to you.

Quote from: jeanna on April 18, 2009, 11:59:15 PM
...I don't get a number except in dB that might describe a frequency. I think dB's are amplitude, so I don't know about that.
I will look around this thing again.

I can set the amount of time between markers and the scope tells me what the setting is in terms of seconds and Hz. This is what you can see on the screen. I had set the time to 2.4kHz.

I am most likely missing what to do to get the scope to calculate the frequency. So far, the only thing the scope is calculating is the volts and some other things like rms and dB if I want them.

in this picture
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg172374#msg172374

the 50 us/div mean 50 microsecond per division and is call the time rate.
that division on your screen is the inbetween the 2 vertical bars.

count the number of cycles between the 2 bars
if you have trouble to count them set that 50 us/div to something faster. like: 1 us/div.

if you do the math, 2.40kHz will be the result.
that 2.40kHz in the pic is the frequency, the number of cycle per second.

the 4.15us value is the time between 2 peeks(spikes)

the 160 v value is the peek to peek value, value from the lowest peek to the highest peek (average).
the 105.3 v value is the calculated rms value, it is not very accurate if the signal is not 60 Hz.

Note
the frequency can change with the time rate.
the cycles i see on that pic are not always the same and that is why it can change.

that kind of signal making the frequency(Hz) value not as accurate as you set the time rate lower,
and more accurate(more average) at higher time rate.

as you can see, you are not changing that value with per say.
that Hz value accuracy can change with the "kind"," purety"(i can't find the right word), of the signal and the time rate setting.
but still, it is way better then nothing.

the 20 v/div mean 20 volts per division, those divisions are on the left side of the screen from top to buttom.
set that to 1v/div for the 12 volts test i suggested to you.

Quote from: Mk1 on April 19, 2009, 12:13:27 AM
News about the mk1 High voltage , dual 80 inch pickup coil , 850 v rectified dc its about 70 turns , 2n2222 with 1k base resistor diode bridge made of 1n4007. Any idea what i will be doing with this one ? And this is from a one inch toroid .

cfls ? ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 19, 2009, 01:48:56 AM

Quote from: jeanna on April 19, 2009, 12:54:32 AM
I pulled one wire out of a led leaving only one secondary wire on the + leg and the led stayed lit. (I don't need to say that shouldn't happen.)

jeanna...
it is not magic, it is call capacitive coupling.

it is the same as putting a capacitor between the free leg(s) of the led(s) and almost anywhere on the jt circuit.
the higher the frequency of your circuit the better the coupling is.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 19, 2009, 01:57:08 AM

Since I've been in a rut lately, I decided to take some readings on my Helmholtz style inductors.

I get more voltage difference by rectifying the fly back toward the positive than toward the negative.

I also noticed that I can get a frequency reading between my finger and the collector.

And that the metal plate sticking out of some of these transistors doubles as the collector.

The frequency measurement values go down when there's a load in the circuit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 19, 2009, 02:17:34 AM

@ MK1

Quote from: Mk1 on April 19, 2009, 12:13:27 AM
News about the mk1 High voltage , dual 80 inch pickup coil , 850 v rectified dc its about 70 turns , 2n2222 with 1k base resistor diode bridge made of 1n4007. Any idea what i will be doing with this one ? And this is from a one inch toroid .

Congratulations. But how did you get 70 (or is it 140) turns on a 1 inch toroid? You must have magic fingers.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 19, 2009, 02:24:21 AM

@ jadaro2600

Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 19, 2009, 01:57:08 AM
I get more voltage difference by rectifying the fly back toward the positive than toward the negative

About how many volts difference do you get?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 19, 2009, 02:24:37 AM

Quote from: jeanna on April 19, 2009, 12:54:32 AM
I wanted to see if one battery powering the jtc in stepwise fashion would give more useful power or not.

unfortunatly, it will not.

transformer are the worst, the most energy waisting, componants in electronic, even when made carefully.
well..., not exactly true, they come second, just after low value load resistors.

the jt circuit secret is that it step up the voltage without a transformer.
but sometime, most of the time, we can't avoid using transformers.
what electronic componant can support very fast repetive high currents spikes...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 19, 2009, 02:38:12 AM

Quote from: xee2 on April 19, 2009, 02:24:21 AM
@ jadaro2600

About how many volts difference do you get?

Measurements were, 165v to 160v, a 5volt difference ..this isn't substantial, but, my setup doesn't incorporate a secondary, I guess I should just wind an MK2 and get it over with. OR one 7,7, coil type.

I just keep getting bad results on these toroids that I purchased.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 19, 2009, 02:59:55 AM

Quote from: TheNOP on April 19, 2009, 02:24:37 AM
unfortunatly, it will not.

transformer are the worst, the most energy waisting, componants in electronic, even when made carefully.
well..., not exactly true, they come second, just after low value load resistors.

the jt circuit secret is that it step up the voltage without a transformer.
but sometime, most of the time, we can't avoid using transformers.
what electronic componant can support very fast repetive high currents spikes...

The horizontal scanning transistor for a cathode ray television, or the deflector transistor for the same.

Try the NTE89! ..here's a datasheet http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/nte/NTE89.pdf (http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/nte/NTE89.pdf), I have one, it costed my $10 us, but I think it's well within the parameters of joule thief lunacy. I'm itching to try it, I'm thinking of using it with a 12v source, or a 6v source, to try and light up form long cfls.. hehe, the not so compact florescent lights

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 19, 2009, 03:26:43 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on April 18, 2009, 11:58:17 PM
Ou is easily obtained with the right control electronics and power sources . .....flip flop flip flop 2 sources 0 volt electronics .Yes there is such a thing much like a young effect .one of the keys in this setup is to oscillate at the lowest possible voltage and current . an example is a zero threshold voltage n-channel FET .. These are new on the market and can oscillate at0.16 volts ..

the "flip flop", for lack of better term, Dr Stiffler concept, seem logical, it look possible, promising.
the young effect, is predicted by physic laws, so it look possible to me too.
if not decide other wise by mother nature...

the question is: why are those 2 techniques are not at an application level as the jt is ?

i can anticipate currents limitation due to capacitance needs, at least in the first technique, but the question still remain.

i am focusing on the jt, but be sure that i keep those in the back of my mind for later.

Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 19, 2009, 02:59:55 AM
The horizontal scanning transistor for a cathode ray television, or the deflector transistor for the same.

Try the NTE89! ..here's a datasheet http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/nte/NTE89.pdf (http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/nte/NTE89.pdf), I have one, it costed my $10 us, but I think it's well within the parameters of joule thief lunacy. I'm itching to try it, I'm thinking of using it with a 12v source, or a 6v source, to try and light up form long cfls.. hehe, the not so compact florescent lights

it does not fit my current need of a mk style transformer.
but might become handy later for up to 600v applications, mk style.
thanks

might be better for cfls application then a toroid.

it need at least 5 volts 200mA to trigger the base, 5 volts is also needed for a 556 timer. ;D
we will not be able to trigger the base with a coil with transistors like this one...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on April 19, 2009, 02:57:09 PM

@Hazens & @Jenna

Thank you for your responses. Hazens I have made a not so accurate version of your 7-7-70 and I can get around 111v DC with it. I am just blown away that Mk1 and others are getting upwards of 850v DC. I wish I had more time to tinker. I will post some pics with voltage data at some point soon!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 19, 2009, 02:58:27 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 19, 2009, 02:38:12 AM
I just keep getting bad results on these toroids that I purchased.

i missed this one and, if i am remembering right, it is not the first time you say this.
but one thing came to my mind this morning.

you are probably basing yourself on the maximum spikes voltage you can get without a pickup coil then with one in place.

more loss is truly to be expected, but the reasons you came to that "big loss" conclusion might be flawed.
what you seem to take for a big loss is not the real loss.

one example of what i mean is this:
the pickup coil, under load or not, (more under load because of how the primary is made) affect the frequency of your jt.
if the frequency is not the same when you are taking your measurements,
then you are comparing apples to oranges.
it is not the real loss.

when i said "be methodic in your experimentations" it mean change only one parameter at a time.
if adding a component change a key factor, you must find a way to make that factor back to what it was before even thinking of taking measurements..

ask yourself what you are trying to do and be practical in the way to achieve it.
ex: for what applications do you want to use your jt ?
i respect your idea of eliminating losses at all cost but...
using a $10 transistor to light a $3 4" cfl is not what i call very money wise.
it is for sure one of the ways to skin a cat tho. ;D

what transistor would it need for a 110 volts motor, do such a transistor currently exist ?
that is just one of the reasons i am going with the mk transformer style.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 19, 2009, 02:59:00 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on April 19, 2009, 12:33:33 AM

I also found this little thing , look at the power input.

Pretty interesting. I like how it is sitting on the earth. I like it a lot.

Is there any more information than these drawings? They look like something out of a notebook.

Great find!!
Thanks so much for posting it.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 19, 2009, 04:12:30 PM

Quote from: stprue on April 19, 2009, 02:57:09 PM
7-7-70 and I can get around 111v DC with it. I am just blown away that Mk1 and others are getting upwards of 850v DC. I wish I had more time to tinker. I will post some pics with voltage data at some point soon!

HEY stprue,

That is fabulous!
111v good going. I think it is about my maximum voltage, too.

What blows ME away is that more people have not even tried that MK1.

Even my variations are better than anything else, even if they are not as good as the real thing.
In fact my little variations are teaching me a lot about this subject.
I think more than my other experiments... except the 2 tier.

waydago stprue!!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 19, 2009, 04:29:17 PM

@theNOP,

Quotethe 4.15us value is the time between 2 peeks(spikes)

Ahh finally. I see it.
Thank you. and thank you for your persistance.

Quoteand

Note
the frequency can change with the time rate.
the cycles i see on that pic are not always the same and that is why it can change.

And, that is the reason it has been hard to figure it out by logic. Its behavior changed as more time went on or at closer resolution. But not having to do with anything I was doing, just where the scope was picking up the wave at the moment.
WHEW!

Quotethe 20 v/div mean 20 volts per division, those divisions are on the left side of the screen from top to buttom.
set that to 1v/div for the 12 volts test i suggested to you.

I will try again, but so far I have only been able to use .1 .2 .4 .8 4 8 and 20v/div. (Unless I switch to the x10. I have more there, but I am not yet sure what this resolution is. I feel it is better to keep to the simple beginners level for a while, unless forced by a higher voltage spike problem.)

Quote
it is call capacitive coupling.

it is the same as putting a capacitor between the free leg(s) of the led(s) and almost anywhere on the jt circuit.
the higher the frequency of your circuit the better the coupling is.

Ah, I have been wanting to know what that means. Now, I have 'experienced' it, so to speak.

where does it come from?
so, it was evidence of the high high frequency in that particular trial, wasn't it?

Quote
Quote from: jeanna on April 18, 2009, 09:54:32 PM
I wanted to see if one battery powering the jtc in stepwise fashion would give more useful power or not.
unfortunately, it will not.

transformer are the worst, the most energy waisting, componants in electronic, even when made carefully.

the jt circuit secret is that it step up the voltage without a transformer.

And this is a jt with the secret. NO?

Is there a 'normal' or other way to step up the step up?

If I used a matched pair of jt cores and 1^o windings but made the second tier a 'step up' from the first tier, would that possibly give me more, rather than less?

I better try that!
(even if physics says I won't. ;) )

again,
thank you for your patience and help,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on April 19, 2009, 05:29:06 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on April 18, 2009, 11:58:17 PM. an example is a zero threshold voltage n-channel FET .. These are new on the market and can oscillate at0.16 volts ..

Gadget do you have a part number?

It sounds like something I would like to play with

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 19, 2009, 06:17:29 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on April 19, 2009, 04:29:17 PM
Is there a 'normal' or other way to step up the step up?

Use a step up transformer as follows.

EDIT: I modified circuit diagram so that it will be easier to understand.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on April 19, 2009, 06:43:23 PM

I just made my first MK2 .......at least that is what I think it is .

4 windings 2 on each side of the toroid .......each winding wound in the opposite direction as the one next to it .
the windings cross in the middle of the toroid . ( goldmine 5 for $1 toroid )

It lit up the very first try .
I have not added a secondary yet .

I have not tried to tune it .
I have a question ......... I made it with 10 wraps on each leg I think I remember that 7 worked well
Isn't tuning it mostly about matching the input windings to the toroid ?
If so .......if I tune it now .....it should stay tuned after I add my secondarys .

I put a few extra wraps on so tuning should be a matter of removing wraps ....... I am going for high voltage with this ......so ......once it is tuned I plan on filling the rest of the toroid with secondary windings .

I used #28 wire for the primarys what about #30 for the secondary?

Any comments or suggestions ?

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 19, 2009, 06:49:20 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 19, 2009, 04:29:17 PM
@theNOP,
Ahh finally. I see it.
Thank you. and thank you for your persistance.

you are welcome.
my pleasure. :)

Quote from: jeanna on April 19, 2009, 04:29:17 PM
And, that is the reason it has been hard to figure it out by logic. Its behavior changed as more time went on or at closer resolution. But not having to do with anything I was doing, just where the scope was picking up the wave at the moment.
WHEW!

i see you are begining to understand it.
but the way you are saying it could cause confusion.

to show you what i meant, a bit better :
take a ruler and put it on your scope screen.
look at the distance between spikes, they are not evenly spaced.

at higher rate you see less spikes on the screen.
that mean that at a higher(ex: ns) rate setting, you don't have an accurate representation of the whole thing.
at lower rate( ex: ms), you have a more representative sample, so even if the cycles are not evenly spaced, it cause less calculations innacuracy.

Quote from: jeanna on April 19, 2009, 04:29:17 PM
I will try again, but so far I have only been able to use .1 .2 .4 .8 4 8 and 20v/div. (Unless I switch to the x10. I have more there, but I am not yet sure what this resolution is. I feel it is better to keep to the simple beginners level for a while, unless forced by a higher voltage spike problem.)

a 4v/div while measuring 12volts will be ok for you to see how DC is shown on a scope.

Quote from: jeanna on April 19, 2009, 04:29:17 PM
Ah, I have been wanting to know what that means. Now, I have 'experienced' it, so to speak.

where does it come from?
so, it was evidence of the high high frequency in that particular trial, wasn't it?
And this is a jt with the secret. NO?

there are two ways circuits can couple, induction and capacitance.

one is a magnetic coupling, like transformers, that can only go as far as the mag field itself.
note : the coupling rise with the frequency and lower with distance.

the other is a potential(charges, volts) difference between 2 points.
note : the coupling rise with the frequency and lower with the distance, but that distance is much greater then a mag field(ex: radio waves).

call it aether if you like, i prefer capacitive coupling because capacitance explain that phenomena.

view it as a capacitor between your led and the battery because its what it is.
in your case the plates are the led lead and the wires of the jt,
separated by a dielectic, that in this case is air.

Quote from: jeanna on April 19, 2009, 04:29:17 PM
Is there a 'normal' or other way to step up the step up?

the "normal" way to step up is one properly made transformers and/or with voltage doubler circuits.
voltage doubler circuits have currents limitation that can be problematic in some applications.

the unconventionnal way is like what the jt is doing, with kicks(spikes).
but a jt is not able to step down. <--hint to all.

Quote from: jeanna on April 19, 2009, 04:29:17 PM
If I used a matched pair of jt cores and 1^o windings but made the second tier a 'step up' from the first tier, would that possibly give me more, rather than less?

I better try that!
(even if physics says I won't. ;) )

it can't give you more that way.
the more you add resistive componants the less output you will get.
in a transformer, the losses are not only resistive, there is also coupling/hesterisis/eddy currents losses.

i am not trying to discourage you.
by all means do your experiments, see for yourself.

the more you get to know something, the more you will be able to find ways to get around it.
sometimes you can get around it, sometimes you can't.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 19, 2009, 07:37:23 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on April 19, 2009, 06:43:23 PM
I just made my first MK2 .......at least that is what I think it is.

It is a MKx because the number after the MK part is defined by how many secondary wires you wind. one on each side of the primary = 1

Quote4 windings 2 on each side of the toroid

.
Well, that's a new one. Keep it, I say. Let's see what it will do.

QuoteIt lit up the very first try

yeay!

QuoteI made it with 10 wraps on each leg I think I remember that 7 worked well
Isn't tuning it mostly about matching the input windings to the toroid ?
If so .......if I tune it now .....it should stay tuned after I add my secondarys .

Since each is double does that count as 5 and 5?

Yes, tune this by removing the primary winds till the light brightens then one partial turn lowers it again. Did I say that in a confusing way?
I think you are supposed to be turning the pot for this too. I am not sure, because MK1 makes a secondary commitment before he tunes his primary, so he can check with a bridge on the output. But I think that is a refinement for a later MKx.

After you tune the primary to the toroid the rest does not affect it.(supposedly)

Quotewhat about #30 for the secondary?

Mark used heavy wire (22 gauge) until last night. He used 30 gauge on the one he reported last night. Was that 850V?
In January, I did a test for Mark that showed that the thickness of the wire of the secondary does not make much difference. He just proved that again.

I wound the MK 0.8 which is less than 1 ;) with a secondary made using 10 up then 10 down then across (not cut) then 10 up then 10 down. I would like to suggest this to you. The wire I used was green magwire from RS and the length of the wire was 44 inches. I was winding the "filter" which is close in size to the medium you are using..I think it (may be) a better one for our purposes. It gives 120volts by itself when in a jt circuit.

BTW, when you are winding the 'down' direction, you must snuggle the wire in between the previous up direction wires.
This will give a cross of the wire.
I am wondering if where that cross is makes a difference. For now, I am keeping the cross on the inside of the ring.

The reason I am suggesting this is it will work, and it will not take too much wire while you get the hang of how to wind it and the twisting and kinking that happens. The longer your wire the more your fingers get in the way! etc.

I have a medium that does well and it has 8T,8T for the primary winding.
That means 8T going one way before the tap that combines the 2 wires, and 8T the other way.
I have yet to do the grunt work of tuning to frequency. theNOP has just gotten through to me about that. I will be providing more, but I think you are in a pretty good starting place with 10 and 10.

Great going!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 19, 2009, 08:23:07 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on April 19, 2009, 06:43:23 PM
I have not tried to tune it .
I have a question ......... I made it with 10 wraps on each leg I think I remember that 7 worked well
Isn't tuning it mostly about matching the input windings to the toroid ?
If so .......if I tune it now .....it should stay tuned after I add my secondarys .

good question, hard to answere.

tuning is an art.
it is much like troubleshooting.

the thing is hard because multiple parameters are at play.
i will only write about the more important ones for the jt.

adding a pickup with a load will change the natural bjt's frequency.
changing the base's resistor value can fix that most of the time, but not always.
adding a RC to the transistor base, a capacitor in parallel with your potetiometer, might be required.
capacitor and resistance value can vary

cores(toroid) can be made from various material.
some have low coeficient of coupling(ferrite, best at higher frequencies), some have high coeficient of coupling(iron, best at lower frequencies)
higher here does not nescessarly mean mHz and lower does not mean 60 Hz either.

to fix poor coeficient of coupling you can do 2 things :
get the transistor to work at an higher frequency. <- most effective on some materials
or add turns to your bjt's base and/or collector coil.
sometimes both methods are required.
spreding the turns around the toroid can help too, but never forget that the mag field is at 90 degree to the wire creating it.
wire at \ and at | does not make exactly the same effect on the core.

the first thing you must do is to find what problem(s) your core have.
too low frequency ?
poor coupling ?
both ?
EDIT: too high frequency ? <--not usual, but possible

i hope this will help everyone.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on April 19, 2009, 09:00:37 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 19, 2009, 07:37:23 PM
It is a MKx because the number after the MK part is defined by how many secondary wires you wind. one on each side of the primary = 1
.
Well, that's a new one. Keep it, I say. Let's see what it will do.

yeay!

Since each is double does that count as 5 and 5?

Yes, tune this by removing the primary winds till the light brightens then one partial turn lowers it again. Did I say that in a confusing way?
I think you are supposed to be turning the pot for this too. I am not sure, because MK1 makes a secondary commitment before he tunes his primary, so he can check with a bridge on the output. But I think that is a refinement for a later MKx.

After you tune the primary to the toroid the rest does not affect it.(supposedly)

Mark used heavy wire (22 gauge) until last night. He used 30 gauge on the one he reported last night. Was that 850V?
In January, I did a test for Mark that showed that the thickness of the wire of the secondary does not make much difference. He just proved that again.

I wound the MK 0.8 which is less than 1 ;) with a secondary made using 10 up then 10 down then across (not cut) then 10 up then 10 down. I would like to suggest this to you. The wire I used was green magwire from RS and the length of the wire was 44 inches. I was winding the "filter" which is close in size to the medium you are using..I think it (may be) a better one for our purposes. It gives 120volts by itself when in a jt circuit.

BTW, when you are winding the 'down' direction, you must snuggle the wire in between the previous up direction wires.
This will give a cross of the wire.
I am wondering if where that cross is makes a difference. For now, I am keeping the cross on the inside of the ring.

The reason I am suggesting this is it will work, and it will not take too much wire while you get the hang of how to wind it and the twisting and kinking that happens. The longer your wire the more your fingers get in the way! etc.

I have a medium that does well and it has 8T,8T for the primary winding.
That means 8T going one way before the tap that combines the 2 wires, and 8T the other way.
I have yet to do the grunt work of tuning to frequency. theNOP has just gotten through to me about that. I will be providing more, but I think you are in a pretty good starting place with 10 and 10.

Great going!

jeanna

Jeanna

I am posting the schematic that I was going by .

I might have caused some confusion by the description I used .
To me the windings that make the JT itself work are primarys ......no matter how many there are ...... the JT will not work without at least 2 primary windings .

To me a secondary is added in addition to the primarys ..... the JY will work with out the secondarys

SO .......according to my way of thinking the JPG has 4 primary windings ......no secondarys

Mine looks just like this except the picture shows 3 windings on each leg ......mine has 10 .
Just in case I did do something different than the rest of you ..... I connected it by hooking the leads on the l left side of the picture together and plugged them into B+
The wires on the right side of the picture connnect to my pot and my transistor .
A cap across the pot didn't seem to help anything .

Thanks for the details about tuning ......I have been doing that some on my other JTs ........but adding a partial wrap and checkinig again is a step beyond what I was doing ...........thanks

I am thinking of adding 4 secondarys to what I have now .....
After I tune it I am thinking of winding half way to the other winding and back .....repeating that on the other side .......and then repeating the whole process again om the opposite side ......that gives me 4 secondarys ..... I should be able to put them in parrallel or series

My next JT is going to be a little one ....... I have a toroid that I got out of a CFL it is just a little over 1/4 inch across .
I have been looking at those LED lights that clip in a hat .........I can make one smaller than that :) I am thinking of using a rechargable button cell for the battery

I have not figured out how I am going to connnect a charger to the battery .... any connector would probably double the size of the unit .
I am thinking an inductive coupling might be best ...... just not sure exactly how to get it done .......maybe a small pancake coil in the unit and another in the charger .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on April 19, 2009, 09:27:47 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on April 19, 2009, 08:23:07 PM
good question, hard to answere.

tuning is an art.
it is much like troubleshooting.

the thing is hard because multiple parameters are at play.
i will only write about the more important ones for the jt.

adding a pickup with a load will change the natural bjt's frequency.
changing the base's resistor value can fix that most of the time, but not always.
adding a RC to the transistor base, a capacitor in parallel with your potetiometer, might be required.
capacitor and resistance value can vary

cores(toroid) can be made from various material.
some have low coeficient of coupling(ferrite, best at higher frequencies), some have high coeficient of coupling(iron, best at lower frequencies)
higher here does not nescessarly mean mHz and lower does not mean 60 Hz either.

to fix poor coeficient of coupling you can do 2 things :
get the transistor to work at an higher frequency. <- most effective on some materials
or add turns to your bjt's base and/or collector coil.
sometimes both methods are required.
spreding the turns around the toroid can help too, but never forget that the mag field is at 90 degree to the wire creating it.
wire at \ and at | does not make exactly the same effect on the core.

the first thing you must do is to find what problem(s) your core have.
too low frequency ?
poor coupling ?
both ?

i hope this will help everyone.

Thanks The NOP

I don't know that my toroid has any problems .......I used it because I have had my best success so far with this kind of toroid .
( goldmine 5 fir $1 )
I always start out with a good sized cap across the pot
I have found that some will work without the cap but not all of them ......but so far they have all worked with a cap .....so I use one to get first light

Quote

spreding the turns around the toroid can help too, but never forget that the mag field is at 90 degree to the wire creating it.
wire at \ and at | does not make exactly the same effect on the core.

This does not agree with what I have been finding
At first I started spreading the windings around the toroid ......the idea was to cut down on dead spots.
I think the design of the MK2 eliminates most of the dead spots .
I have notices that squeezing the windings close together usually helps more than winding them tightly on the toroid .
Because the primary windings are single layer ..... I have been placing a string across the outside of the toroid where the windings will be ....... and I tie the windings together once I am finished

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 19, 2009, 09:52:31 PM

@Gary,

QuoteMine looks just like this except the picture shows 3 windings on each leg ......mine has 10 .
Just in case I did do something different than the rest of you ..... I connected it by hooking the leads on the l left side of the picture together and plugged them into B+.

So far so good.

QuoteThe wires on the right side of the picture connect to my pot and my transistor .

You mean connects to the pot the other one to the collector , I am sure. So, yes.

QuoteA cap across the pot didn't seem to help anything

Me either.

I think you are starting with too many turns.
MK1 indicates that he uses only a few.
Your tuning will tell, but expect it to be more like a total of 7 of each color total.
That would be 7T,7T primary.

Gary, do yourself a favor and just wind one even temporarily like the MK1.
You can take it out and do the other as you suggest.

When you wind the MKx secondary you go up then down on one side of this.
I don't think you need to cut but leave some wire when you cross over and then go up then down again.
That is an MK1 It is really powerful.

thanks,

jeanna

PS

I somehow missed that picture. I thought I had been through all the pages of this thread at least 3 times.

I have never seen that one!
I have not made mine like this, but I will.
Mine are made with red on one side connected through the middle to the other color on the other side. This way looks like it won't want to un-wrap as much. That is what I didn't like about the split method.

Do you happen to know what page or date that is from? or, did MK1 post it?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on April 19, 2009, 09:58:47 PM

Hello All,

I just wanted to take a second and say that I am so very impressed with everyone's hard work. I have ordered 5 new toroid's from CWS. I plan to start testing them in the next week, I also ordered a new scope and a LCR meter.

I think that I am very close to powering a cfl from my current setup my goal in the next two weeks is to power a 15inch tube!

Take Care,

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on April 19, 2009, 10:25:58 PM

" I thought I had been through all the pages of this thread at least 3 times. "

Jeanna.......no wonder you were able to locate the tri-axis toroid so fast!

Still impressive nonetheless though.

By the way I may have missed it because it hasn't occurred to me until now, has anyone tried different sizes of wire between the primary and the secondary ?

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on April 19, 2009, 10:36:48 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on April 19, 2009, 05:29:06 PM
Gadget do you have a part number?

It sounds like something I would like to play with

gary

Hi Gary yes part numbers are ALD110800/ALD110900. They are available from Digikey as quad and dual devices in PDIP and SOIC packages in four different models and they feature, as the most salient specification, Gate Threshold Voltage of 0.0 V +/- 0.01V @ 1 uA. A Matched pair can "Flip Flop" for free ....

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on April 19, 2009, 10:42:01 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 19, 2009, 09:52:31 PM
@Gary,
So far so good. You mean connects to the pot the other one to the collector , I am sure. So, yes.
Me either.

I think you are starting with too many turns.
MK1 indicates that he uses only a few.
Your tuning will tell, but expect it to be more like a total of 7 of each color total.
That would be 7T,7T primary.

Gary, do yourself a favor and just wind one even temporarily like the MK1.
You can take it out and do the other as you suggest.

When you wind the MKx secondary you go up then down on one side of this.
I don't think you need to cut but leave some wire when you cross over and then go up then down again.
That is an MK1 It is really powerful.

thanks,

jeanna

PS

I somehow missed that picture. I thought I had been through all the pages of this thread at least 3 times.

I have never seen that one!
I have not made mine like this, but I will.
Mine are made with red on one side connected through the middle to the other color on the other side. This way looks like it won't want to un-wrap as much. That is what I didn't like about the split method.

Do you happen to know what page or date that is from? or, did MK1 post it?

Jeanna

Sorry I didn't record where it came from ........but I am sure you should have seen it ......I am pretty sure that it was in a sting of posts I think MK was explaining them to you ........ the one I posted was I think the second in the string .

I made this one because it looking at the drawings it made sense to me . ....... the way the MK1s drawings are done I am not sure how to go about it .

I agree that there are to many turns on mine ......I intended on making sure I had plenty then taking some off . ......

I am out of time for tonight .
I hope to get a secondary wound tomorow

Rather than working on my secondary tonight I did the primarys for my little toroid .
havn't tested it yet .......but it is wound

On my little one I tried just a litle hot glue to hold the wires in place .... it works pretty good ....... it is easy to get to much glue on there .........but if you heat it up pretty good you can wipe it off with a rag .
I just used a dab on the side of the toroid ...... Just enough to keep the wire in place to start wrapping .
I only glued the first wire into position ...until I was done with that set .
I find it is easier to wind them with a little space in between then push them together . .
SO .......when I had put on enough wraps I squeezed them together and tacked them into place with a little more hot glue .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on April 19, 2009, 10:47:27 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on April 19, 2009, 10:36:48 PM
Hi Gary yes part numbers are ALD110800/ALD110900. They are available from Digikey as quad and dual devices in PDIP and SOIC packages in four different models and they feature, as the most salient specification, Gate Threshold Voltage of 0.0 V +/- 0.01V @ 1 uA.

Gadget

Thanks Gadget

I will look them up tomorrow

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 20, 2009, 01:36:40 AM

Quote from: resonanceman on April 19, 2009, 09:27:47 PM
I don't know that my toroid has any problems .......I used it because I have had my best success so far with this kind of toroid .
( goldmine 5 fir $1 )
I always start out with a good sized cap across the pot
I have found that some will work without the cap but not all of them ......but so far they have all worked with a cap .....so I use one to get first light

doing things empiricaly is not something easy to do.
there can be a lots of misunderstanding of the observations of an experiment.
in faq there are more misunderstanding when you know nothing about the subject.
it is also more easy to completly miss something important.

you are all ready to learn from other members of this forum.
why not learn from others that really know their stuff ?
learning from academic stuff, then prouve them right or wrong trough experimentations is way faster.
to me, it kinda look like each of you is re-inventing the wheel separatly.

you may have success with the goldmine's 5 for $1, but do you know if you can make work better and how to know for sure ?

from your question on "how to tune", i am assuming that you don't really know and would like a step by step tutorial.
the problem is that this tutorial would contain so many "if", "and" and "or" that it is almost impossible to make one.

the how many turns tuning of the primaries is only an attempt to conserve spaces.
more turn then nescessairy wont do much once the maximum coupling is reached.
well, there will be other parameters changes.
it will change the jt frequency when under load.
those changes can either be good or bad depending on your core.

like i said, there are so many factors at play, that most of you won't make it far with only empirical methods.

@ALL
what i wrote here is not only for resonanceman, it is for all that read my post.
same thing with most of my replying posts.
so, if you missed informations, thinking the reply was not for you, then i suggest to you to go look back.

Quote from: resonanceman on April 19, 2009, 09:27:47 PM

Quotespreding the turns around the toroid can help too, but never forget that the mag field is at 90 degree to the wire creating it.
wire at \ and at | does not make exactly the same effect on the core.

This does not agree with what I have been finding
At first I started spreading the windings around the toroid ......the idea was to cut down on dead spots.
I think the design of the MK2 eliminates most of the dead spots .
I have notices that squeezing the windings close together usually helps more than winding them tightly on the toroid .
Because the primary windings are single layer ..... I have been placing a string across the outside of the toroid where the windings will be ....... and I tie the windings together once I am finished

but never forget that the mag field is at 90 degree to the wire creating it.
wire at \ and at | does not make exactly the same effect on the core.

the picture there show what i mean by spreding the coil around while keeping the wires at 90 degrees relative to the core.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg172911#msg172911
so, i think we are saying the same thing. ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 20, 2009, 01:46:07 AM

@Cat
Welcome to the JT forum.
It's nice to know there are people out "there", do read up on what we are doing. ;)

You are very welcome to join us when you feel ready to do so.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 20, 2009, 03:08:27 AM

@ MK1

Quote from: Mk1 on April 19, 2009, 12:13:27 AM
News about the mk1 High voltage , dual 80 inch pickup coil , 850 v rectified dc its about 70 turns , 2n2222 with 1k base resistor diode bridge made of 1n4007. Any idea what i will be doing with this one ? And this is from a one inch toroid .

Is the red wire how the pickup coil was wound to get the 850 volts? How many turns did you use for JT coils?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 20, 2009, 08:19:25 AM

@mk1

I made some changes to the windings in order to understand better the correct way the wire is wrapped around the toroid. I could not follow the wire turns on the original graphic.

I paid attention to the wire starting in one direction and ending on another direction.

Is this correct?
I will use an @mk1 toroid coil on a switching circuit I am planning.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 20, 2009, 11:04:39 AM

@mk1

This is my attempt to make this drawing clearer. Is it correct?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 20, 2009, 11:46:25 AM

@all

The mk x2 are for the jt side of things , so you get a double pulse on each side, so 2x faster, i used it so i could get the same voltage from the pickup coil with a bigger resistor at the base .

I did not use it to get the 850v, i just used more turn on the pickup coil that is all .

@jesus

Your drawing is wrong on the right side blue coil output should be on the outside not the middle.

@xee2

Yes it could be used has a pickup coil , but i did not design it in that fashion .

@Nop

Tell me if the freq would be set by something else then the base resistor like a quarts or a resonant circuit would the freq be more stable, then with just a resistor.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 20, 2009, 12:55:08 PM

@MK1

Please take a look at your drawing close-up from the one that Gary posted last night.

I think the colors of the wires crossing in the middle are mixed up. Could this be what is wrong?

When I follow the blue wire starting from either side, when it is finished coming out from one set of turns it must be where the red wire is in order to cross over to the other set of turns before they are wound.
(The same thing happens with the red.)

Thank you for this information,

Of course, if it doesn't work, we do not need to use it. I am not sure if it worked when you tried it.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 20, 2009, 01:19:12 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 20, 2009, 12:55:08 PM
@MK1

Please take a look at your drawing close-up from the one that Gary posted last night.

I think the colors of the wires crossing in the middle are mixed up. Could this be what is wrong?

When I follow the blue wire starting from either side, when it is finished coming out from one set of turns it must be where the red wire is in order to cross over to the other set of turns before they are wound.
(The same thing happens with the red.)

Thank you for this information,

Of course, if it doesn't work, we do not need to use it. I am not sure if it worked when you tried it.

jeanna

The drawing may not be as precise , as some would like , but its not wrong , and yes it works , other wise i would not have bothered making it. I posted the conclusive result .

Mark

Ok a made a new one see next page.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dog812 on April 20, 2009, 02:08:19 PM

I tried both ways of winding that MK1 today.. i couldnt get anything to work.. how do the wires get hooked up after winding?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 20, 2009, 02:19:08 PM

@dog812

You are taking about the regular mk1 jt coils , one on each side, if yes then connect them like the regular jt then if it doesn't work reverse on coil , it it still doesn't work, its a toroid that is not good for the mk style jt , that toroid will need more turns on the jt coil , so it would work better in a bifillar way.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 20, 2009, 02:42:42 PM

@all

Ok i see where , some get confused , i hope this will fix that.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dog812 on April 20, 2009, 03:05:58 PM

Yah i did that..
But then i tried every combination of hooking them up to the transistor and couldnt get it to do anything. Oh well..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on April 20, 2009, 03:06:48 PM

@Mk1

That pic should be clear enough for everyone. Thank you very much Mk1! The x2 is the 850vdc, as mentioned 1 page back, right? If you include one more graphic showing the primary and secondary wire orientations I feel anyone (myself included) could replicate. Also are you using 30 gage mag wire for all windings?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 20, 2009, 03:57:19 PM

@stprue

Well , the x2 is not needed to get 850v , usually when i test a toroid and winding i drive the base of the transistor with lower resistor value to get it a the right freq , but lower base resistor also mean that the battery drains faster, i order to get
the same freq but with a higher base resistor value , so the battery will last longer.I have design the x2 .

I hope this make sense.

Mark

On the jt side i still use 22 bell wire, but the pickup coil 30 gauge.

Edit i also use some 26 gauge but never got good result from them, i don't know why.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 20, 2009, 04:26:55 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on April 20, 2009, 11:46:25 AM
Tell me if the freq would be set by something else then the base resistor like a quarts or a resonant circuit would the freq be more stable, then with just a resistor.

yes.
stability is not required at this point tho.

if by "stability" you meant will always stay the same then the answere is yes too.
it will always stay the same, no matter if there is a load or not on the pickup coils.
the base coil will have no purpose anymore, it can be removed.

with a quarts oscilator, 555 or 556 timer, a normal transformer can be use for frequency up to 10k Hz.
maybe more since hesteresis is not a problem with pulsed DC.
toroid can be used for higher frequencies.

one important thing to know about core's materials is that the min/max frequencies overlaps with each other.

ex:
iron = up to 10kHz (ac) insulated laminated iron only
ferrite = min 5kH, max 200kHz (ac)
some other ferrite type might = min 100kHz, max 800kHz (ac)
etc...

if someone ever find charts with (materials = frequencies) or (material = coefficient of coupling) data, please post the link.
thanks

N.B.
i will not be as much present here then i was lately.
my forced vacation is over, i'm going back to work.
so don't worry if it take long for me to reply. :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on April 20, 2009, 05:18:01 PM

@ Mk1

Yes this makes since. I usually connect a POT to my JTC's so I can tune to specific frequencies and for those of you that may not know this CAN be beneficial depending on the load you are testing. It's funny that you have had no luck with 26 gage. My last attempt at the Hazens 1 7-7-70-70 coil which I could only fit 10-10-41-41 on I used 26 for everything and when I finally got it to work I was only able to get 6-7vdc out of it. Disappointing considering the time and effort.

@ All & @ Hazens 1

I will post some pic's (soon) of my 10-10-41-41 maybe I'm doing something wrong that you can help me with.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on April 20, 2009, 05:31:08 PM

@Mk1

I forgot to ask you if you are using 1 inch goldmine torroids?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on April 20, 2009, 05:48:06 PM

@Mk1

How is the primary and secondary hooked up? Can you please provide a complete pic like the one above?

If so I will make an Mk x2 this weekend ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 20, 2009, 07:01:37 PM

Quote from: stprue on April 20, 2009, 05:48:06 PM
@Mk1

How is the primary and secondary hooked up? Can you please provide a complete pic like the one above?

If so I will make an Mk x2 this weekend ;D

Hi stprue,
Mk1 has not answered yet. I know he got some new toroids to try, but I am sure his first and really good one so the kind he recommends is the kind like my "filter"

Mine is not as crazy good as his, but it is way good. And it is better than all my others.

I posted 3 pics a few pages back and the filter was the middle one.

I am also curious about this new one of Mark's.

If MK1 is gone for the evening, I can perhaps put together some of his directions for making the MK1. I have put them together for myself.

I need to eat lunch. It is 4 PM and I will do this a bit later if MK1 hasn't done it by the time I get back.

jeanna.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on April 20, 2009, 07:59:56 PM

I have been trying to tune my MK2

I have decided that I don;t know what I am doing

I have just been reading the voltage across the LED

I have removed several windings from each leg .....I am still getting the same voltage.
1.384 after thinking about it for a while .....it seems to me that all I am reading is the voltage the LED is operating at .

Can someone explain exactly what to measure when tuning the windings.

Thanks

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 20, 2009, 08:08:16 PM

@all

Page 478

Right now i am trying to replicate the mk1 high voltage on my new toroid.

The x2 is made to replace the regular mk type coils.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on April 20, 2009, 08:29:58 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on April 20, 2009, 07:59:56 PM
I have been trying to tune my MK2

I have decided that I don;t know what I am doing

I have just been reading the voltage across the LED

I have removed several windings from each leg .....I am still getting the same voltage.
1.384 after thinking about it for a while .....it seems to me that all I am reading is the voltage the LED is operating at .

Can someone explain exactly what to measure when tuning the windings.

Thanks

gary

I am trying it again with a diode bridge and cap
I will be measuring the voltage at both extremes of my pot .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on April 20, 2009, 08:56:23 PM

i was looking through the tesla patents and there is one that definately shows a joule thief curcuit.. it showed a mechanical rotary switch that made contact with 2 coils side by side that became one wire then went through a dual coil step up transformer! very interesting looked like there was more than needed to solve the issue he wanted which was a high frequency high voltage transformer power supply. very similiar to the work here. i found it in a book store if i remember i will get the patent number as i could not locate it on a quick search here.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 20, 2009, 09:36:03 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on April 20, 2009, 07:59:56 PM
Can someone explain exactly what to measure when tuning the windings.

the output of a pickup coil.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 20, 2009, 09:40:37 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on April 20, 2009, 08:29:58 PM

I am trying it again with a diode bridge and cap
I will be measuring the voltage at both extremes of my pot .

Gary,
If you measure across the LED's legs you will be limiting what you see by the limits of the led.

If you wrap about 7-10 turns around the toroid as a temporary secondary. you can use that. Put that on the ac leads of the bridge and collect the + and - into a very big cap. I am using one from the fuji camera that I had cut off. It is capable of 300v and I have been producing about 110v in my smaller MKx's.

I am about to do this very procedure with a MK_2x primary just to tune it.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on April 20, 2009, 09:50:44 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on April 20, 2009, 09:36:03 PM
the output of a pickup coil.

Thanks TheNOP

That makes sense .

I was trying to avoid adding a secondary at this time .

I guess I will have to .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on April 20, 2009, 10:06:00 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 20, 2009, 09:40:37 PM
Gary,
If you measure across the LED's legs you will be limiting what you see by the limits of the led.

If you wrap about 7-10 turns around the toroid as a temporary secondary. you can use that. Put that on the ac leads of the bridge and collect the + and - into a very big cap. I am using one from the fuji camera that I had cut off. It is capable of 300v and I have been producing about 110v in my smaller MKx's.

I am about to do this very procedure with a MK_2x primary just to tune it.

jeanna

Thanks Jeanna

I guess I was to busy doing what I was doing to stop and think about what I was doing .

I have used a cap from a flash unit for a while ......I switched to a smaller cap so it would charge up faster .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 20, 2009, 10:23:38 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on April 20, 2009, 10:06:00 PM
Thanks Jeanna

I guess I was to busy doing what I was doing to stop and think about what I was doing .

I have used a cap from a flash unit for a while ......I switched to a smaller cap so it would charge up faster .

gary

I just got 32 volts from the new MK 2x using what was already on the filter. I think it is 19 turns. I usually take them off, but this time I saved myself the trouble. After it is tuned and I have a good look at the frequency on the scope (coming up!) I will remove them and make a MK1 wind with what was it 80 inches? Maybe 60. I don't have a cap higher than the fuji.

or maybe I do...

theNOP or someone else, If I put 2, 300volt caps in parallel, can I add up what they collect from the bridge to a total of 600v?

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 20, 2009, 10:34:28 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 20, 2009, 10:23:38 PM
theNOP or someone else, If I put 2, 300volt caps in parallel, can I add up what they collect from the bridge to a total of 600v?

no and yes
volts add in series.
capacitance(ex: uF) add in parallel

if your bridge does not output 600volts the caps will simply be filled to the maximum the bridge output.

charging in parallel then changing the caps connections to in series, must not stay connected to the bridge, would give you 2x the bridge output

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 20, 2009, 11:37:31 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on April 20, 2009, 10:34:28 PM
no and yes
volts add in series.
capacitance(ex: uF) add in parallel

...
...

I want to see if I can collect 600 volts (should I be so lucky) and not to explode a cap, I wondered if I could use 2 in parallel then add them up separately using a dmm on HV.
That will work won't it?

From your top line, I think I need to put 2 300v caps in series to charge them. So, the rest of your comments mean I should not safely do this?

Thanks

@All,
This is cool,

I took this filter which is similar to the recommended choke type toroid MK1 uses. It comes with 2 19turns coils to be used as a filter.

I left them on this time. In the space between the ends of the wound filter, I wound 3-4T of2 wires split as drawn in this new MK 2x style. So I would count them 7T,7T

This is a blockbuster, I think. Look at this.
With some new understanding of my scope, (thanks to NOP and all the other scopies) I connected the cilp and probe to the ends one side of the filter wires and looked at the frequency on the scope.

It was already at 24kHz and made 3 waves right there. It looked just like this: --v----v----v--
I turned the base resistor down and the waves spread out and when they stopped at one wave --------v--------,
I checked the resistor. 70 ohm.
the voltage was 41 volts.

so a recap
at 70 ohm R_B
41Volts and one wave is about
24kHz

Untuned the cap had collected 32 or 35 volts.

Then. I tried the resistor the other way- up. the waves got deeper and the voltage was 66-64-65v like that.
The resistor was now at 517 ohm , and next I moved the boundary lines of the frequency counter to be at what looked like exactly one wave
--|=--\/----|=-\/- so between the 2 vertical bars the frequency is now 45kHz. This is very very cool for some HHO reasons, but the whole thing is so great.

So, if I am correct in what I just did, the results are

45khz
65volts
with 517ohms at the base resistor.

Yes?

Thanks to all the scopies for giving me so very much help and patience, esp theNOP, who was the most unrelenting. ;)

wow,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 21, 2009, 12:01:43 AM

@jeanna, consider using two identical capacitors in series.

-||-||-

This will cut the voltage across the leads on one in half relative to the outermost leads. Parallel won't achieve anything except increasing capacitance.

You can test this, of course, just setup an experiment.

This will, of course, cut the capacitance of the whole unit in half due to the reciprocal nature of the setup. This is only when the capacitors are identical, otherwise, things get more complicated. Consider this as a voltage drop across multiple elements in series. :)

Two achieve the same capacitance and twice the rated voltage, you would need two sets of series in parallel.

-||-||-
-||-||-

*edits for content, post was a bit premature

Also, I've noticed that when collecting a capacity large and in the uF range, that elements being powered by that capacitance may flicker.

Perhaps what you need is a high voltage nanofarad capacitor? I found some in a multipack, 1kv, ~700pF (actual measure)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 21, 2009, 12:28:04 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 21, 2009, 12:01:43 AM
@jeanna, consider using two identical capacitors in series.

-||-||-

This is the solution.
Yes, thank you.

This is the reason for my questions:

At some point in this outrageousness, the voltage is going to hurt my meters.
I wanted to have a way to find out how much voltage was in the spikes without doing that.
I am now on the threshold of this,
IF I follow up using this 'filter' and wind the pickup of the MK1 onto it. With 65volts on just the jt coils, I may just get something too high to test.
Blowing a few LEDs is annoying but cheap compared to blowing meters.

So, I have 3 of each size cap from 6 fuji cameras. So, I could be fine if I fill these caps, then measure them.

But, theNOP says if I USE the caps... well,
I won't be using the caps except as a test device.
So the only other thing theNOP says to watch is the bridge itself.

Even then, MK1 is saying he has blown some bridges.

I am OK up to 1Amp on the diodes I have but they do not say anything about volts.
My bridge is good to 600 volts.

@MK1 What have you done to measure 850volts?
At some point we will all need to deal with this, I think.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 21, 2009, 12:52:29 AM

@ Jeanna:

Great work!! Don't quote me on this but my understanding and experience with my DMM's is that higher voltage does not hurt them. If I exceed whatever scale I am on (in volts) I just get the error message..."1". Now, checking amps or mA's is another matter entirely. I am on my 4th fuse on my 2nd best meter on the amps side. The meter is still fine but those fuses are a pain to find around here. I have accidentally put over 1,000 volts through my meter and still just got the 1 error code....no harm done.

See what the other guys say that have much more knowledge about this than I but, this has been my experience with DMM's so far. (I have 4 of them now)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 21, 2009, 12:53:34 AM

@ Jeanna

My multimeter goes up to 2000v , but the bridge is the issue here , i used the 1n4007 diodes to make a bridge , they are good up to 1000v , other diodes usually will drop the output voltage within there respective spec .

Also i see that you made the X2 , with that toroid you use i think you could go 2 turns instead of 3.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 21, 2009, 01:06:44 AM

@Bill,
Hi
The problem with the dmm is it doesn't do a good job of reading the volts on this phenomenon.
I think the spikes are too slim and fast. Wow, crazy 45KHz tonight.

Bill, Have you been able to play with your new scope?

@MK1,
Yes, the bridge and the diodes.
My diodes are 4001.
I will see if I can find their limit.
Or do you know it?

OK, It will be only frustrating but I will not ruin things.
If the diodes drop the voltage.
How do you know that?
What meter or method did you use to learn that you had more volts and the diodes were dropping it?

----
I will try using fewer turns.
What is the voltage you have gotten from the split jt wires with just a single direction secondary?

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 21, 2009, 01:12:20 AM

@ Jeanna:

Yes, I have tuned it to establish the baseline, and adjusted the trace rotation and even adjusted and tuned the capacitance of my probes. (All per the manual) That is about as far as I have got thus far. Lots of switches and dials there. Trust me, it will take me a while. But you are doing well and that is great. You give me hope. Keep it up.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 21, 2009, 01:18:00 AM

@Jeanna

I have tried many different bridge on the hv toroid , so far there is not enough amp to break my diodes they just keep the voltage within there respective specs , that is when the voltage exceeds there limits .

Some diodes will drop the voltage anyway and there is sometime a over 20 volts range between 2 bridge.

Mark

1n4001 are 1 amp 50 volts. You need a new bridge !!!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 21, 2009, 01:24:59 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on April 21, 2009, 01:18:00 AM
...

Mark

1n4001 are 1 amp 50 volts. You need a new bridge !!!!!

mmm, guess so.
It is a good thing I waited on my next order! I will add them 4007 or better.

thanks,
jeanna

here from allelectronics
4007 1,000 volts 1 amp, 6/$1
1N5408 1,000 volts 3 amps, 3/$1

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 21, 2009, 01:43:44 AM

@all

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiIkeFXqRos
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1815461677597553845

Ok its a old one , but it should look so familiar .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 21, 2009, 02:32:09 AM

@ jeanna

Some voltmeters may survive over-voltage, but not all. I have fried a few myself so be careful. I recommend using your 1:10 scope probe when measuring high voltages. Or, make you own voltage divider with two resistors. They should be over 100K each. For example, if R1=R2 then the voltmeter will read 1/2 of Vin. If R1 = 9 x R2 then voltmeter reads 1/10 of Vin.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 21, 2009, 06:41:15 AM

caps use the same calculations as resistors, but not for calculating resistance.

in series voltage capacity are added but capacitance is reduced :
Vmaxtotal = V1max + V2max + V3max + etc...
Ctotal = C1 x C2 x etc... / (C1 + C2 + etc...) or Ctotal = 1 / 1/C1 + 1/C2 + etc...

with caps in parallel :
safe max voltage is the voltage of the lowest rated cap.
Ctotal = C1 + C2 + C3 + etc...

you can add diode in series to rise their max reversed voltage tolerance.
you can make 1 bridge made of 2 or more diode in series, same configuration, instead.

edited : was in a hurry to go to work, sorry.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 21, 2009, 01:14:08 PM

@Jadaro

Check those http://www.google.com/patents?id=gEs7AAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&dq=toroid+coils&source=gbs_summary_r&cad=0_0#PPA4,M1

http://www.google.com/patents?id=P04zAAAAEBAJ&dq=toroid+coils

http://www.google.com/patents?id=azpvAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA1963&dq=pull+push+toroid+amplification&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=0_1#PPA1963,M1

http://www.google.com/patents?id=wjs5AAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&dq=toroid+coils&source=gbs_summary_r&cad=0_0#PPA2,M1

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 21, 2009, 04:33:19 PM

Quote
I recommend using your 1:10 scope probe when measuring high voltages. Or, make you own voltage divider with two resistors. They should be over 100K each. For example, if R1=R2 then the voltmeter will read 1/2 of Vin. If R1 = 9 x R2 then voltmeter reads 1/10 of Vin.

a variation of the above

i might be wrong but i think all scope probes are using a 1 meg and a 9 meg ohms resistances.

add a 1 meg ohms at the tip of your probe and using the other lead of the resistor to get the reading will give you a 2x or 11x probe, depending on what the probe is set at, 1x or 10x.
you can use other resistors too like a 2 meg for a 3x or 12x, 5 meg for 6x or 15x, 10 meg for 11x or 20x

so, if your scope is good for up to 200 volts with a 1x,
on 10x it is able to read 2000 volts safely.
at 20x it would be good for up to 4000 volts safely.

for a DMM it is different as you must know the scale's resistance first.
so the voltage divider trick is more convenient.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 21, 2009, 04:38:33 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 20, 2009, 11:37:31 PM
From your top line, I think I need to put 2 300v caps in series to charge them. So, the rest of your comments mean I should not safely do this?

it mean that you can't connect the caps in series while they are connected in parallel to the pickup coil.
it is an imposibility ;)

and if you disconnect one then connect it in series with the other cap and connect it to the pickup coil too,
you will have a suprise, perhap even a fryed coil.
300 volts would flow back into the coil.
caps in series = 600, coil provide only 300 = diff of 300

Quote from: jeanna on April 20, 2009, 11:37:31 PM
45khz
65volts
with 517ohms at the base resistor.

Yes?

except for the resistance value, time rate of when 2 other values were taken ?
if it was low then yes, they are what you got.

alway use the lowest time rate when reading the values.
ex: 100ms

higher time rates are to get a better indeep visual of the trace(also called signal or wave).
ex: 1ns

this will give you better averaged and calculated values for "non perfect" signals.
by "non perfect" i mean when cycles are not always the same in a 1 second peroid.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 21, 2009, 05:28:36 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on April 21, 2009, 04:38:33 PM

this will give you better averaged and calculated values for "non perfect" signals.
by "non perfect" i mean when cycles are not always the same in a 1 second peroid.

This makes sense.

Quote
QuoteQuote from: jeanna on April 20, 2009, 08:37:31 PM
45khz
65volts
with 517ohms at the base resistor.

Yes?
except for the resistance value, time rate of when 2 other values were taken ?
if it was low then yes, they are what you got.

I don't understand your question.
It may be about the english.
Except for what resistance value?
It was the base resistor when I made the test (517 ohm)
All 3 things go together.

I changed the resistor until I got the highest voltage, then I moved the time markers to see what the frequency was.
That is why they all go together.

I will take out a turn or 2 and repeat this business.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on April 21, 2009, 07:28:26 PM

here is the tesla patent that resembles our work here on the joule thief. its initial dual coil design gets the high frequency (without need of transistor) then runs it through a second transformer for the extra kick in high voltage. and to think there could be a high voltage high frequency regulator with nothing but a copper wire :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 21, 2009, 11:38:37 PM

@Mk1,

I don't seem to be getting a big difference with this filter when I lower the number of turns.

I went down to 1 turn of each wire on one side and 3 on the other.

The frequency of a single wave could be found at a number of places.
It makes me think of harmonics.
The volts were about the same when I changed the resistance at the base.
The only thing that changed a lot was the base resistance to achieve the volts at any frequency.

I think the first one is the best.

Perhaps I already knew that and that is why I started there.
I cannot find it in my notes, but it is likely that I already determined that 6T,7T or 7T,6T is the best for the filter.

I may wind a MK1 with what wire I have left tomorrow.
I got the notice that my newbie wire and my Chinese LEDs are both on their way, so I may take a walk in the spring weather tomorrow, instead.

Maybe after a nights rest I will realize a different way to look at this.

thanks all,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 22, 2009, 04:49:06 AM

I think we've reached an advanced level of understanding of the Joule Thief Circuit. Progress continues to be made.

@all,

I was just wondering if it was the collapsing magnetic field of the coil to collector that is causing the voltage gains in the secondary - wouldn't the coil to base be interfering with the maximum gains attainable by the secondary?

I've wound a toroid with fine gage wire 340o then placed two addition coils, one in the gap and the one evenly spaced around the toroid. there are nearly 150 winds of 30 gage wire for the pickup, there are 12 winds of 26 gage going to the base and 12 winds of 26 gage going to the collector. Still, I get more voltage when using the 150 winds as the coil to collector than I do when using it as a secondary.

My secondaries work, just not very well. I'm consistently having more luck with the coil to collector - which puts me in a position to damade the transistor due to over voltage.

*note, as soon as finals are over, I'll have time to wind a few MK's

@MK1, those are some interesting patents you've posted. IS any one your favorite? ..any one inspirational?

I like older patents, that filers had to explain themselves clearly, so that the public could understand what was being said, this seems to have ceased with many filers, and things have become the art of vaguery.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 22, 2009, 06:34:26 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 22, 2009, 04:49:06 AM
I was just wondering if it was the collapsing magnetic field of the coil to collector that is causing the voltage gains in the secondary - wouldn't the coil to base be interfering with the maximum gains attainable by the secondary?

in a way, yes.
but not as much as you might think.

there is a tradeoff here.
either you complicate the circuit to trigger the base with an external oscilator and remove the base coil.
or you keep the circuit like it is now, simple, yet,
hard to master because changing 1 small thing affect a key factor.(the frequency)

for 1.5 volts applications the bjt is the way to go.
for higher voltage source, an external oscilator is perfered, by me at least.

external oscilator is also possible with 1.5 volts, but since we must prevent interferences from reaching the oscilator circuit it limit the lowest voltage it can operate at.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 22, 2009, 10:10:29 AM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on April 21, 2009, 07:28:26 PM
here is the tesla patent that resembles our work here on the joule thief. its initial dual coil design gets the high frequency (without need of transistor) then runs it through a second transformer for the extra kick in high voltage. and to think there could be a high voltage high frequency regulator with nothing but a copper wire :)

Do you have a modern version of this circuit?

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 22, 2009, 11:53:30 AM

@ jadaro2600

Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 22, 2009, 04:49:06 AM
I get more voltage when using the 150 winds as the coil to collector than I do when using it as a secondary.

Yes. So what. You seem to be missing the point. Which is:

Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 22, 2009, 04:49:06 AM
I'm consistently having more luck with the coil to collector - which puts me in a position to damade the transistor due to over voltage.

If you have a high voltage on the collector coil it will zap the transistor. You do not say, but I am sure that the voltage on the 150 turn coil when used as a pickup coil is much higher than the voltage on the 12 turn collector coil when used as part of the JT. Measure them and tell me what the voltages are. The point is that using a pickup coil allows you to get high voltage without zapping the transistor. You seem to have some sort of mental block about this.

The pickup coil can also be used to get higher currents if it has fewer turns than the collector coil. More turns than collector coil yields higher voltage than collector coil, fewer turns yields higher current than collector coil.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 22, 2009, 12:11:05 PM

@jadaro,

I have been "downloading" (from the quantum field) a lot of information for the last month. AK's insistence on sending us to view Tesla patents ( ;) ) got me to do something I have been wanting to follow up on but have not. It is the main reason I do not want to COLLECT the output in a capacitor. I want to keep it as AC.

In this patent is Tesla's discovery, more than the light bulb or the spark gaps as switches or anything. This is what has been in our faces and hidden from view all along.

Please look at and read his comments in this
http://www.pat2pdf.org/pat2pdf/foo.pl?number=462418 (http://www.pat2pdf.org/pat2pdf/foo.pl?number=462418)

In this patent he states that his discovery has to do with excessively high voltage and frequency.

It would seem that since in AC, the amps go first one way then the other, never really going anywhere at all, that Tesla discovered that merely having them "exist" for an extremely short time is the same thing as having them "travel" down" the wire.

Hidden in plain view.

We need higher voltage and higher frequency.

Lets DO IT.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 22, 2009, 01:44:11 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 22, 2009, 12:11:05 PM
Please look at and read his comments in this
http://www.pat2pdf.org/pat2pdf/foo.pl?number=462418 (http://www.pat2pdf.org/pat2pdf/foo.pl?number=462418)

In this patent he states that his discovery has to do with excessively high voltage and frequency.

It would seem that since in AC, the amps go first one way then the other, never really going anywhere at all, that Tesla discovered that merely having them "exist" for an extremely short time is the same thing as having them "travel" down" the wire.

Hidden in plain view.

We need higher voltage and higher frequency.

Lets DO IT.

jeanna

you are already doing it jeanna.

knowing what tools he had, to come to his conclusion, how would you have describe what Tesla discovered ?
making corelation between, the old electric terms, and the today's terms, use to describe things, is not always easy unless you have experiences in the field.

did you know that in his last years of life he found that extremly higher voltage was not needed to see a "new" electricity ?

today, we have better tools and you can see what Tesla needed high voltage to see, ... in the jt.
i tell you, frequency is the key.

no matter what someone else tell you, we have Tesla knowledge teached to us at schools.
they don't teach who first discovered inrush current nor who discovered mag field collapse effect.
but they do teach us about them.
they teached me how to suppress them, or how to use the later in high voltage applications such as flyback transformer.

and you know what ?
what i see when i look at the open SM TPUs are, ... joule thiefs.

the later TPU are probably also relying on other specific effect(s) as well,
but at the base there is those kicks at high frequency in both.
no OU, just a new way to make things work.

for me SM's special inverter is nothing more then a modulated AC signal made with a ~5kHz currents carrier.

i might be wrong, but that is my educated guess.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on April 22, 2009, 01:46:59 PM

@ ALL

HAPPY EARTH DAY

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 22, 2009, 02:31:59 PM

@all

Great earth day!

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 22, 2009, 05:30:58 PM

Quote from: xee2 on April 22, 2009, 11:53:30 AM
@ jadaro2600

Yes. So what. You seem to be missing the point. Which is:

If you have a high voltage on the collector coil it will zap the transistor. You do not say, but I am sure that the voltage on the 150 turn coil when used as a pickup coil is much higher than the voltage on the 12 turn collector coil when used as part of the JT. Measure them and tell me what the voltages are. The point is that using a pickup coil allows you to get high voltage without zapping the transistor. You seem to have some sort of mental block about this.

The pickup coil can also be used to get higher currents if it has fewer turns than the collector coil. More turns than collector coil yields higher voltage than collector coil, fewer turns yields higher current than collector coil.

Now that I'm aware of my mental deficiencies, and my mental block. All that I can do is reiterate.

There is a limit to what can be done with a 1.5v source. You don't zap the transistor if you give it somewhere else to go when the transistor is off.

The only time that the voltage occurs is when the transistor shuts off and the magnetic field collapses. This causes voltage in a secondary as well. Meanwhile, however, there is induction in the secondary, and the current momentarily reverses prior to this large voltage spike.

Excuse my deviations from the secondary trend, but, isn't it prudent to realize that if there is a large voltage in the collector coil, as well as an available current equal to that of the source battery, then the circuit potential (as in available energy for use on a load) across the collector coil through to ground ( not through the transistor ) is higher than there would be for any proximally located secondary coils?

Everything coming off the emitter is wasted in the process of creating oscillations. Perhaps someone with an oscilloscope can confirm my hypothesis that energy coming from the emitter is pulsed? This would mean putting the probes between the positive pole of the battery and the emitter on a setup where there is a scondary? ...or am I yet again suffering from a mental block?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 22, 2009, 05:50:04 PM

Why are we aiming for high frequency?

Doesn't it make sense that the higher the frequency, the closer to continuous something becomes?

In order to fully harness the power of a collapsing magnetic field, the best frequency will depend on the induction, core permeability and capacitance of the path, material and the circuit respectively.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 22, 2009, 06:12:24 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 22, 2009, 05:30:58 PM
The only time that the voltage occurs is when the transistor shuts off and the magnetic field collapses. This causes voltage in a secondary as well. Meanwhile, however, there is induction in the secondary, and the current momentarily reverses prior to this large voltage spike.

wrong.
you are forgetting inrush currents.
and the small reverse voltage is caused by the base coil.

Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 22, 2009, 05:30:58 PM
Everything coming off the emitter is wasted in the process of creating oscillations.

????
it is not waisted, why are you saying that ?

simple faqs :
switches give us inrush currents at closure time.
we also have a coil, that give us voltage spikes when the switch open.
yes, there are 2 distinctive kicks in a jt, both of same polarity, same as the initial currents flow.

if you are to add more resistance, ex: a load, between either side of the transistor and the battery, you will minimise inrush currents.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: amigo on April 22, 2009, 06:34:37 PM

To those who celebrate the "Earth day"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5Miv4NHsDo

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 22, 2009, 06:40:46 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 22, 2009, 05:50:04 PM
Why are we aiming for high frequency?

aiming for a specific frequency is more like it.

Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 22, 2009, 05:50:04 PM
Doesn't it make sense that the higher the frequency, the closer to continuous something becomes?

it will never be continuity.
frequency it is about difference of potential in time.
ask yourself what is the difference between 60Hz and microwaves.

Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 22, 2009, 05:50:04 PM
In order to fully harness the power of a collapsing magnetic field, the best frequency will depend on the induction, core permeability and capacitance of the path, material and the circuit respectively.

i don't really care about the mag field collapse.
i am marely just using the coil to get the voltage at the level i need.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 22, 2009, 06:53:48 PM

@ jadaro2600

Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 22, 2009, 05:30:58 PM
Now that I'm aware of my mental deficiencies, and my mental block.

Sorry if I sounded offensive. I thought you were asking for help and I was only trying to help you.

Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 22, 2009, 05:30:58 PM
The only time that the HIGH voltage occurs is when the transistor shuts off and the magnetic field collapses.

Yes. If the high voltage exceeds the Vceo of the transistor while the transistor is off then the transistor could be damaged. The pickup coil is a way to avoid this problem. If there is a diode or neon between the collector and emitter then the voltage can be limited by going through that path. But then current is wasted going through the diode instead of going back through the collector coil and inducing current in the pickup coil. Unless it is being used to light LEDs or charge a capacitor. So a decision needs to be made about where to take the energy from the collapsing magnetic field out of the circuit. It should either be at collector or at the pickup coil. Using both will split the energy between the two.

Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 22, 2009, 05:30:58 PM
Everything coming off the emitter is wasted in the process of creating oscillations.

Yes. At first most of the energy goes into creating the magnetic field and little goes out the emitter. Once the magnetic field is created then all of the current flowing through the coil is wasted going out the emitter. By adjusting the frequency and the inductance of the collector coil, the amount of energy lost through the emitter can be minimised by never allowing the magnetic field to be fully created (but then less energy is available when the field collapses so there is no perfect solution).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 22, 2009, 07:02:28 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 22, 2009, 05:50:04 PM
Why are we aiming for high frequency?

Doesn't it make sense that the higher the frequency, the closer to continuous something becomes?

Jadaro,
Did you read this patent a few times?

He is substituting frequency for amps.
Tesla discovered AC, but in this patent, I think, he is describing what is different about AC.

If it is true,and I think it is, that frequency is the AC substitute for amps or charge in the circuit, then we need to be getting the frequency to be up there with the voltage spikes.
Or maybe it doesn't matter.
Maybe it already is.
We just need to pack the pulses so close together it will be as though it were continuous.
Maybe it is the voltage that doesn't need to be so terribly high.
Maybe 150 or 250volts will be enough if the frequency is high as to be continuous.

Tesla was using a spark gap from a capacitor to make the pulses.
We are using a transistor.

He was using a generator to make a small amount of electricity that he put into the caps and discharged them.
The discharge made the voltage spike.
The high frequency of the high voltage spikes did a lot of work.

That patent even describes what to do with the other wire.

He says it should go to a piece of metal on the wall, or otherwise to the ground!!!

I think it is very significant that it is an early patent.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 22, 2009, 07:05:24 PM

@ jadaro2600

Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 22, 2009, 05:50:04 PM
In order to fully harness the power of a collapsing magnetic field, the best frequency will depend on the induction, core permeability and capacitance of the path, material and the circuit respectively.

Yes. Frequency should be selected to get best performance from the toroid. However, if you want to do one wire power transmission using capacitive coupling, then the higher the frequency is the more power will couple through a given capacitance.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 22, 2009, 07:06:43 PM

@xee2,

QuoteSo a decision needs to be made about where to take the energy from the collapsing magnetic field out of the circuit. It should either be at collector or at the pickup coil. Using both will split the energy between the two.

This is where "The Man" connected a wire and ran a motor, or the light bulb in the picture, or any other light bulb, according to him.

EDIT ADD
The problem with using the collector is that it is now DC again, and you are using amps.
If you use the secondary/pickup, you are still in AC and in so doing, you are not using amps, you are still able to use just volts and frequency.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 22, 2009, 07:37:15 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on April 22, 2009, 07:06:43 PM
EDIT ADD
The problem with using the collector is that it is now DC again, and you are using amps.
If you use the secondary/pickup, you are still in AC and in so doing, you are not using amps, you are still able to use just volts and frequency.

Good point. It is very hard to get AC off the collector - emitter path without shorting out the transistor. But it can be done using a couple diodes and a transformer.

EDIT: I was just looking at this recently, and I think it turns out that twice as much power is available when using a pickup coil as when using the collector-emitter path.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: amigo on April 22, 2009, 08:53:57 PM

On the subject of transistor C-E and AC, if you draw the transistor into oscillations like Dr.Stiffler does in his circuit, then the resulting output siphoned via a capacitor and an air coil, in resonance of the base oscillator, is always AC, as DC can not traverse across the cap.

Albeit, you are getting wide band harmonious high frequency oscillations, so how you step that down to your needs is your choice. But, if you have followed Dr.Stiffler's developments, AV Plug is used to convert that output to DC and feed it to LEDs, motors, neons, etc.

Regarding Tesla, I think it is important to note that he MADE his own motors and light bulbs that were specifically created and tuned to work with his electrical sources. Just assuming that you can connect a today's incandescent bulb or a motor is erroneous thinking.

About Tesla's patent #583,953 he says on page 1 line 47:

"...or provide independent condensers, and employ means for charging said condensers in multiple and discharging them in series through the primary of the transformer"

Here he is charging capacitors in parallel and discharging in series to gain higher voltages. This can be achieved by using a specific circuit called Marx Generator (which was invented later), that creates high voltage DC pulses:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marx_generator

And here is a write up on how to build one (I like this one, very fancy):

http://members.tm.net/lapointe/marxmain.html

Lastly, I do not believe you will see much with 250V as that is probably not even enough to crack the air barrier in a spark gap of one millimeter size.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on April 22, 2009, 08:55:07 PM

@ALL

Here is a pic of my fuji circuit running 140 LEDS! I have worked on it off and on for awhile and I just got some LED Christmas lights in to test with :):)

Take Care,

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 22, 2009, 09:48:29 PM

I don't know what I was thinking when I made that comment about continuous AC...I'm not in my right mind.

So finding the right frequency is the point. I'm assuming.

There is waste coming out of the emitter, but we have to have it in order to complete the circuit. SO it's not really wasted but for a short time.

I my previous post a few pages back, I mentioned the duty cycle. I'm thinking that a low duty cycle will mean less power being consumed.

I think i'll try to take some more measurements off one of my circuit that uses a capacitor instead of a resistor. As I understand, most of you put the resistor at the base, that isn't how I've done things, it does make sens to put the voltages up from before the drop, but I've gotten the idea in my head that it only takes a little bit of inrush current in the collector coil to block that in the base coil.

I think at one point, I was measuring 1ma of current going to the base, this is a paltry amount and easily upset by induction, and with that same low current, the 2n222 turn itself on full throttle. This is why I put the capacitor up front, removed the resistor at the base. It only takes a little bit to turn the transistor on, having a continuous current pass through here can be replace with reaction from the other coils.

I'll just have to get this whole thing working with a secondary coil to make it relevant.

The Marx generator, Greinacher / Villard / Cockroft-Walton circuits are all basically the same...they're component intensive, and In order to perform their best, I think some of the require clean AC.

@jeanna,
I did read the patent, it's an oldy but goody. He's specifically vague.

He mentions using both AC and pulsed DC for the effects he mentioned. But these diagrams in the patent are a complete mystery to me..the seems very general.

@all,

Letting things spark is a good way to create X-rays. Rather than just creating tazers, maybe we should just try to put a load on it?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 22, 2009, 09:54:17 PM

@Altrez,
WONDERFUL
Is this not very satisfying.?
It almost fits perfectly in an altoids box. Protect it from touching the metal and nail it to the fence! ;) Patio lights

@Amigo,
It is very hard to respond to you when you come here and tell us about someone else's work and how he does so and so and changes it by such and such method. What you say is probably fine, but it is so not what we are doing here that it is too hard to respond.
The Tesla patent is a different one
462418
He specifically states that any kind of bulb will work.specifically a carbon filament bulb (I assume of the edison type) will work, although he prefers the one he has made himself. It also works on a motor.
This patent is earlier than the one to which you refer.

@All,
I was recharging my scope batteries today. I really need a power supply wall-wart to recharge them at night!

I took out some turns on my filter as suggested by MK1 last night and tested it for
frequency and
voltage at various
resistances at each new number of turns.
This is only the primary jt turns I am changing. It is the MK_2x split primary type I am testing here.
(I am using 10 up and 10 down just to take a reading. I will make a full on MK1-2x tonight or tomorrow.)

MK1, you were right the fewer turns does give a better mix.

In light of finding this #462418 patent, I noticed that INDEED, as the resistance changes (goes up in this case) the frequency goes up, and the voltage goes down, given the same number of turns of wire. It is not ohm's law (a quick look tells that) however, the relationship of the frequency to the volts and resistor is similar to what it would look like using amps in the equation. NOT the same equation for sure. (hmm.)

Here are a couple of examples:

with the same wires arrangement I got
105kHz
56V at
795ohms on base resistor

or changing the resistor
111kHz
53.9V at
975 ohms on base resistor

and for another example, after changing the wires

117kHz
52V
975ohms at base resistor

and changing just the base resistor
45kHz
95.4V
36ohms at base resistor

So, I can get higher frequency or higher voltage.
One goes up when the other goes down.

More art. ;)

jeanna

PS I just got my newbie wire. It looks beautiful. I'm ready to roll!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 22, 2009, 10:26:10 PM

what is DC and what is AC ?

AC is a DC currents that is switched in polarities over a period of time, it is not a sharp switching.
the higher the AC frequency, the higher the number of changes per unit of time.

does higher frequency AC have more guts then lower freq AC ?
yes, and same for pulsed DC

for 60 Hz, the maximum currents is reached only 120 times per second.
the ultimate currents guts is pure DC, but it does not have the same properties as AC.
ex: with pure DC, induction only happen when currents is first applied,
it do nothing in term of induction once it is flowing,
there are no capacitive coupling either.

one other thing, else then when currents is first applied, AC = no inrush currents.
and no mag field collapse either, the mag field is forced to change over a time period.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on April 22, 2009, 10:36:32 PM

everyone here has a different perspective of where this "should go" to attain results, im sure no one is disreguarding high frequencies however i would like to know why they would not benefit the work? a frequency is how often it cycles and we would want as much frequency as possible to attain more results faster. with voltage well lets just say the less amps you use the smaller the wire can be, high voltage is the way to go to keep wires smaller and watts higher :)

my thoughts is, if it worked for tesla back in the day it will work for me! and that man LOVED some high frequency high voltage.

cheers

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 22, 2009, 10:46:01 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 22, 2009, 09:54:17 PM
Here are a couple of examples:

with the same wires arrangement I got
105kHz
56V at
795ohms on base resistor

or changing the resistor
111kHz
53.9V at
975 ohms on base resistor

and for another example, after changing the wires

117kHz
52V
975ohms at base resistor

and changing just the base resistor
45kHz
95.4V
36ohms at base resistor

So, I can get higher frequency or higher voltage.
One goes up when the other goes down.

did you look at the currents too ?
the frequency will be lower with the pickup under the load of your ampmeter.

and what about when it is 1.40kHz ? ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on April 22, 2009, 11:05:52 PM

Took the same 20-20-80, 3/8 inch toroid Christmas coil from my previous posts and dropped the resistor down to 1k and changed the transistor to a TIP31 npn. I measured 100v rectified across a 200v, 22uf capacitor. Charge stabilised after approx 1 minute. So I removed and discharged the cap and proceeded to hook up 25 LEDs in Series and here are the results. Total current draw loaded is 53ma and the LEDs are pretty bright too. I would compare the brightness from each LED as if it was running off 3.6v, 20ma continuous DC each. Almost blinding 8)

I noticed something when measuring using capacitors. Appears that my DMM does not measure peak voltage since when I remove the cap the voltage measures 70v and the cap measures 100v. I'm guessing the cap charge maxes out at the peak pulse voltage and the DMM is measuring an average voltage rather then a peak voltage when measuring pulsed DC across an unknown time period ??? I checked my DMM manual and could not find any documentation that concerned pulsed DC measurements.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 22, 2009, 11:18:19 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on April 22, 2009, 10:46:01 PM
did you look at the currents too ?
the frequency will be lower with the pickup under the load of your ampmeter.

and what about when it is 1.40kHz ? ;)

No currents.
I was just tuning the jt primary, and determining the optimum number of turns for this toroid called 'filter'.
I wanted to add the relationship of frequency in there separately tonight.

Remember, I do not have an amp meter. I just use the 10 ohm resistor at the + battery lead in series to the meter.

What do you mean, and what about when it is at 1.4kHz?

@Hazens,
good job. 25 in series.
Did you stop when the lights dimmed?
Soon we will be able to light those christmas strings from our own wound toroids!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dog812 on April 22, 2009, 11:24:49 PM

@hazens
Nice work.. that torrid is awesome!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 22, 2009, 11:43:49 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 22, 2009, 11:18:19 PM
Remember, I do not have an amp meter. I just use the 10 ohm resistor at the + battery lead in series to the meter.

oops, i forgot

Quote from: jeanna on April 22, 2009, 11:18:19 PM
What do you mean, and what about when it is at 1.4kHz?

same numbers of turns but not in 2X formation.
you had 1.4kHz in one of your previous post picture.

QuoteSo, I can get higher frequency or higher voltage.
One goes up when the other goes down.

is this still true at 1.4kHz is what i meant.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 23, 2009, 12:18:06 AM

Quote from: TheNOP on April 22, 2009, 11:43:49 PM

same numbers of turns but not in 2X formation.
you had 1.4kHz in one of your previous post picture.
is this still true at 1.4kHz is what i meant.

OK I will check that out it is in the next breadboard over.
I am starting to have a real estate problem. breadboards on the kitchen table... eating on my lap...
;)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 23, 2009, 12:59:13 AM

@theNOP
I don't know what the 1.04kHz was you were thinking of.
I think it was the MK .8
But that was not 1.04 kHz.
Anyway The MK .8 with 20 up and 20 down across 20 up 20 down in 2 examples of base resistance shows:

21kHz
126V
36ohm base resistance

50kHz
95.7V
973 ohm base resistance

It appears so far that as the base resistance goes up the frequency goes up
As the frequency goes up the voltage goes down.

This is a sampling of 13 tests so far all are the same way.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 23, 2009, 01:24:24 AM

@ hazens1

Quote from: hazens1 on April 22, 2009, 11:05:52 PM
I noticed something when measuring using capacitors. Appears that my DMM does not measure peak voltage since when I remove the cap the voltage measures 70v and the cap measures 100v. I'm guessing the cap charge maxes out at the peak pulse voltage and the DMM is measuring an average voltage rather then a peak voltage when measuring pulsed DC across an unknown time period ??? I checked my DMM manual and could not find any documentation that concerned pulsed DC measurements.

Bridge circuit (full wave rectifier) charges capacitor across DC output terminals to half of the peak to peak input voltage. When DMM is set to AC it measures the full wave rectifier voltage (half of peak to peak) and then multiplies by 0.707. This would be the RMS voltage of the AC input if the input AC was a perfect sine wave.

When the positive and negative peak voltages have equal magnitudes, then a full wave rectifier will output half of the peak to peak voltage. When the positive and negative peak voltages are not equal, then the full wave rectifier will have an output equal to the largest peak voltage.

Thus you could have anything between 100 volts peak to peak up to 200 volts peak to peak.

Assuming you are using the capacitor at 100 volts, then each of the 25 LEDs in series is getting 4.0 volts. But the LEDs will probably limit the voltage to 25 X 3.6 volts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on April 23, 2009, 05:40:22 AM

Quote from: jeanna on April 22, 2009, 11:18:19 PM
@Hazens,
good job. 25 in series.
Did you stop when the lights dimmed?
Soon we will be able to light those christmas strings from our own wound toroids!

Nope, just what would fit easily on the breadboard. I need to get some bigger boards. I'm sure that circuit could handle more, same as the 43 in Parallel setup could handle more.

@xee2
Thanks for the info. Makes sense.. Also, I removed the cap after the rectifier, only used it for measuring.

@All
Based on previous test circuits, I've got an idea that should push the 1 inch Goldmine toroid to about 1k volts. Just need to find the time to wire up the config that is in my head and test it. Also going to need to have a plan to measure it since my DMM only goes to 1k. Goldmine has a 35k volt cap and maybe a voltage divider :o http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16864 (http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16864)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on April 23, 2009, 07:08:13 AM

@jeanna

Thanks! Oh and BTW i ordered a scope just like yours it will be here Monday! I figured it would be a good one to learn on and should last awhile.

Take Care,

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 23, 2009, 12:01:16 PM

@ hazens1

Quote from: hazens1 on April 23, 2009, 05:40:22 AM
Also going to need to have a plan to measure it since my DMM only goes to 1k. Goldmine has a 35k volt cap and maybe a voltage divider :o http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16864 (http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16864)

Make you own voltage divider with two resistors. They should be over 100K each. For example, if R1=R2 then the voltmeter will read 1/2 of Vin. If R1 = 9 x R2 then voltmeter reads 1/10 of Vin.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 23, 2009, 01:05:02 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 23, 2009, 12:59:13 AM
@theNOP
I don't know what the 1.04kHz was you were thinking of.
I think it was the MK .8
But that was not 1.04 kHz.
Anyway The MK .8 with 20 up and 20 down across 20 up 20 down in 2 examples of base resistance shows:

we can't compaire this toroids values with the other one you are testing.
too many things are different.

QuoteSo, I can get higher frequency or higher voltage.
One goes up when the other goes down.

my point is that this quote will not be true anymore when the frequency will begin to be too low for your toroid.

btw
to be able to compaire the effect of removing or adding turns on the jt coils, you must remove/add to the pickup coil in order to keep the same turns ratio.
if you don't, you will only be measuring the ratio difference, without any clues on the real gain or loss.

there is also something else to take in consideration when trying to achive very high frequency.
since we are not dealling with signal amplification,
there is a point where the frequency will limit the currents flow.
this is because of the circuit's resistance, mostly the coil impedance, but also the transistor's internal resistance.

since the currents rise with time and it rise more slowly with greater resistance,
if you don't give it time to reach it maximum, then you are limiting it.
this is where duty cycle can help us to some extent.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 23, 2009, 02:28:33 PM

Quote from: altrez on April 23, 2009, 07:08:13 AM
@jeanna
...BTW i ordered a scope just like yours it will be here Monday! I figured it would be a good one to learn on and should last awhile.
-Altrez

Cool.

Now, we can help each other figure it out!

I am starting to get it, now.

@theNOP

Quotethere is a point where the frequency will limit the currents flow.

Maybe then we will be getting somewhere.
When frequency can act like amps or current, we will not need amps.
I do believe this is what Tesla discovered and tried to tell us in that patent someone thought was vague.
Well, that patent is just the circuit of how to hook it up when it is produced.
He was talking about it in general over the course of many patents.
Too bad his patents are all we have.
But, perhaps they are good enough because he was forced to explain himself in them.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on April 23, 2009, 03:45:43 PM

here is a cleaned up version of the "tesla thief"

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 23, 2009, 04:19:29 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 23, 2009, 02:28:33 PM
@theNOP
Maybe then we will be getting somewhere.
When frequency can act like amps or current, we will not need amps.

i think you have missed my post where i crudely explain what is AC currents.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg173667#msg173667
it is not the exact definition, but i was thinking it would help you see more clearly what Tesla meant.

i will elaborate a bit more about it.

let say you have a source that can only deliver 1mA per second, 1 cycle taking a second.
if frequency per second double, you will have .5mA per .5 second, because your source can't give you more per second.

now let say your source is adding 1mA per cycle, a cycle taking 1 second.
if frequency per second double, you will get 2 mA per second, 1mA per .5 second.
it will only keep adding while your power source can provide more.
pass that point, you will have to find a way to increase the output of your source.

the frequency is not what do work, the volts + amps do.
EDIT : not exactly true, frequency do some works, where there is coupling, either capacitive or inductive, but those are transfer of energy.

ex:
what i am trying to determine is, if i double the volts/amps at the expense of the frequency(ex:skipping 1 cycle per 2 cycles to double the amps), can i make anything i want work as if the volts/amps as been doubled for real.

looking at the jt, i think the answere is yes.
not because the jt is doubling the volts/amps at the expense of the frequency, it does not.
but the jt create a similar effect.
it make something work that otherwise would not work.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on April 23, 2009, 06:05:05 PM

@Mk1 & @Jeanna

Here is my attempt at the Mk1 x2 coil. Let me know if this looks right to you. Any tips on the hook-up would save me some time.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on April 23, 2009, 06:07:23 PM

On the bottom one you will notice crossovers. I also have crossovers on the sides but I wasn't sure if I need them across the bottom as well.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on April 23, 2009, 06:08:24 PM

It's been more then a delay for me to post this data! I honestly can't remember how asked me but here it is anyway.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on April 23, 2009, 06:38:00 PM

what AWG is that wire? stprue And what type of Toroid?

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on April 23, 2009, 06:44:10 PM

The Toroid is the standard 1 inch 5-$1 goldmine and as for the wire...

Pick-up=30 guage mag from RS

JT wire=28&26

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on April 23, 2009, 06:51:39 PM

@ Hazens1

Please elaborate on your 1K JT idea ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 23, 2009, 07:24:11 PM

Quote from: stprue on April 23, 2009, 06:07:23 PM
On the bottom one you will notice crossovers. I also have crossovers on the sides but I wasn't sure if I need them across the bottom as well.

Hi stprue. Very nice.

You cannot avoid the crossovers when you are winding the coil back down after you wound it up. Each wind down has to go over the one coming up from the bottom layer.(otherwise it cannot make its progression back down.)

I try to keep my crossovers in the inside. I only do this because when I heard the winds count on the inside of the toroid more than the outside, I figured if the cross is strong (or weak) it would be amplified if I keep it all inside. [If it is weak and it hurts things, it should show up as a problem easier if I keep it consistent.]

very nice.

I see a metal cased transistor. Is that a 3055? Are you going for extra high voltage too? ;)

Good job,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: amigo on April 23, 2009, 07:47:47 PM

@jeanna,

I am sorry, I assumed that everyone here is also reading other threads on this forum, as they all relate to the search for "free energy." One can, and should, never put all eggs into one basket... :)

Dr.Stiffler's work has been presented here and is still available. I strongly encourage everyone to read the whole thread because it contains valuable information and development time line.

After all you never know where you might get an idea to further your own branch of research, but you will definitely never get any if you do not venture into other areas, that's for sure. :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 23, 2009, 08:21:31 PM

Thanks amigo,

I am relatively new to electronics and I have had a hard time following his work. I should try again. I have learned so much since the last time I looked at his thread, I may find it easy to follow, and inspiring.

Of course, it seems every time I look up from my own work table, it is 11:30PM again...

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 23, 2009, 09:29:30 PM

Hi everybody,

I checked out the relationship between the
resistance of the transistor base,
frequency and
voltage when in a jtc a little bit more today.

To review, I checked toroids wound as 'a known', and without changing anything about the toroid, I put it into a breadboard with the same individual
2N3904,
1k ohm pot at the base of that transistor

Then on my scope, I checked and recorded both
the voltage and
the frequency coming off the secondary wire of a known description.

Then I changed the value of the resistance at the base of the transistor while watching the voltage and frequency change.

The first one I tested was the "zebra with kynar".
6T,6T,74T

Here are 3 tests on the same "zebra with kynar":

181 kHz
47 V
971 ohms

142 kHz
59 V
262 ohms

33 kHz
79 V
0.6 ohms

Then I put the "XTree" through the same tests.
11T,11T, ~75T

80 kHz
53 V
971 ohms

38 kHz
91 V
32.5 ohms

Both of these cores are on the Tor-23 called 'charcoal'.
This is a very small .3 inch ID toroid. I have always liked the results but because it is so small, it just doesn't get the volts. It occurred to me after last night's tests that this may be something that will give me higher frequency . I think it did.

Also, these similar cores have the same number of turns of the secondary, although the materials of the secondary are different the gauge of both secondarys is 30 awg.
However, these are made with different primary turns.
Also, they are not made the MKx way.
They are both made the evil mad scientist way, but one has fewer turns.
The battery is about 1.3v (that is something that unfortunately changes over time.)

So, please, look again and see what you see different about them when I change just the base resistance.

What I see changing is the frequency goes up and the voltage goes down when I raise the base resistance.

Tonight I will use a 20k ohm pot and have more of a look. If I see a turn around at any point I will do more precise tests.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 23, 2009, 10:35:42 PM

@ jeanna

I am not sure if you will understand this (because I think it is a bit confusing, not because I think you are not smart), but this is my attempt at explaining why the base resistor changes the frequency. Perhaps you, or someone else, can make the explanation simpler to understand.

THEORY OF JOULE THIEF FREQUENCY VS BASE RESISTOR VALUE by xee2

Increasing the base resistor value reduces the base current. This current flows through the base coil. When the resistor value is high the current is very small. When the base resistor value is low the base current is larger.

When the transistor turns on the current increases slowly in the collector coil (as a result of the inductance of the coil). The changing current in the collector coil induces a current in the base coil that opposes the base current that is already flowing there due to the base resistor. The larger the current change in the collector coil is, the larger the opposing induced current in the base coil will be.

When the transistor turns on the collector coil current builds up very slowly. At some point the increasing current in the collector coil will be large enough that the opposing induced current in the base coil will be large enough to cancel the current due to the base resistor and then the transistor will turn off. If the base resistor value is small, then the base current will be large and it will take longer for the opposing base coil current to increases to a large enough value to be big enough to cancel the base current flowing due to the resistor. Thus it takes longer for the transistor to be turned back off when the base current is large (small base resistor value) than when the base current is small (large base resistor value).

The frequency is just how often the transistor is turned on and off. With a small base resistor value (large base current) this happens less often during each second due to the longer time it takes the transistor to be turned back off. Thus increasing base resistor value increases frequency and decreasing base resistor value decreases frequency.

So frequency depends on the base resistor value and the collector coil inductance.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 24, 2009, 12:10:16 AM

@Xee2,
Your explanation is very clear and makes plenty of sense to me.

@All,

I want to finish reporting this little series of tests.
I used the XTree and the same transistor and battery etc as before.
Except, I substituted a 50k pot in the base resistor spot.

It had started at 1.3k ohm so in the beginning it
had these results

90 kHz
48.8 v
1.3 kohm
23mA draw *

I turned the pot until the wave I had changed from 1 inside the markers to 2 and stopped,and moved the markers to the exact spot and took the measurements.

142 kHz
29.5 V
10.3 kohms

and continued.
A sudden change occurred on the screen. It may be an anomaly, but the wave form switched from being in one place to suddenly being in another, like moving 180 degrees along. so the up was now down.
I went back and forth. It is repeatable at that spot.
The trace was a very smooth and beautiful sinewave from here on.
At a continuing cost of volts.

181 kHz
26.9 v
12.5 kohms
7.3 mAmps draw *

then

200 kHz
21 v
26.5 kohms

and finally

200 kHz
7 v
48 kohms
1.1 mA draw *

These last 2 are both at 200 kHz but the voltage continued to drop as the base resistance continued to rise, and the wave is just beautiful. a pure sine wave.
I do not think that really matters, or if it does, it comes at a grave price

So, there it is.

jeanna

* EDIT:
I just realized I never mentioned amps draw from the battery once in this whole thing, so I did 3 checks on the XTree with this 50k pot at the base of the transistor and the amps draw on the circuit is

23mA at 1k ohms

7.3mA at 12.6 kohms

1.1mA at 49 k ohms

I will go back and add these numbers in places close to the right spot.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 24, 2009, 12:32:30 AM

i totally agree with xee2

my resume would be this :

Increasing the base resistor reduces the voltage reaching the transistor base, giving the transistor less time to conduct currents.
because the base coil reverse voltage oppose the voltage at the base more rapidly.

decreasing the base resistor augment the voltage reaching the transistor base, giving the transistor more time to conduct currents
because the base coil reverse voltage has to be greater in order to oppose the base voltage.

this is one of the reasons why i suggested less turns on the base coil.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 24, 2009, 02:10:58 AM

Quote from: xee2 on April 23, 2009, 10:35:42 PM
THEORY OF JOULE THIEF FREQUENCY VS BASE RESISTOR VALUE by xee2

Increasing the base resistor value reduces the base current. This current flows through the base coil. When the resistor value is high the current is very small. When the base resistor value is low the base current is larger.

When the transistor turns on the current increases slowly in the collector coil (as a result of the inductance of the coil). The changing current in the collector coil induces a current in the base coil that opposes the base current that is already flowing there due to the base resistor. The larger the current change in the collector coil is, the larger the opposing induced current in the base coil will be.

When the transistor turns on the collector coil current builds up very slowly. At some point the increasing current in the collector coil will be large enough that the opposing induced current in the base coil will be large enough to cancel the current due to the base resistor and then the transistor will turn off. If the base resistor value is small, then the base current will be large and it will take longer for the opposing base coil current to increases to a large enough value to be big enough to cancel the base current flowing due to the resistor. Thus it takes longer for the transistor to be turned back off when the base current is large (small base resistor value) than when the base current is small (large base resistor value).

The frequency is just how often the transistor is turned on and off. With a small base resistor value (large base current) this happens less often during each second due to the longer time it takes the transistor to be turned back off. Thus increasing base resistor value increases frequency and decreasing base resistor value decreases frequency.

So frequency depends on the base resistor value and the collector coil inductance.

I like your explanation. And TheNOP's as well.

Please then tell me what causes the transistor to heat up?

Wouldn't only partially opening the transistor CE path create resistance in the transistor and thus heat buildup? Or am I thinking of a transistor acting more like a resistor and/or relay?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 24, 2009, 02:13:06 AM

Jeanna:

Excellent tests and results. Thank you for doing them and posting them. I also want to thank our electronics guys (I know there are more of you out there) TheNOP and Xee2 for taking the time to explain things to us that we "should" have already learned. The thing I believe is very encouraging is that, the more we as a group study and experiment with the JT, the more we find that it isn't "exactly" what was once thought. That is good enough for me. I never claimed, nor do I do so now, that this is any type of OU. I think this is but one of several devices that can't be totally fit into one simple definition. I believe Tesla, and then Stubblefield, knew this as well. As our EE guys have said all along..."no magic" and I believe they are correct. But, as long as we can continue to make this circuit do things that are not now currently being done, then I am happy.

Don't get me wrong here. I confess to not understanding enough about "conventional" electronics to argue with anyone. That is not my point. OK, here is what I am trying to say. Even though this may be well known and old school, it is not being used in ways it could be and that is what I think we are doing best.

I just read about the Honda Insight produced in 2000. (They stopped production but these cars are sought after) This vehicle made over 75 mpg!!!!! Now Honda has began making it again all these years later, and it gets like 50 mpg!!!

I love finding new uses for old things.

Thanks to everyone on here for their participation and contributions. I have been silent for a while but have been here reading and learning. Keep it up. I can't think of anything more fun than this.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 24, 2009, 02:16:55 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 24, 2009, 02:10:58 AM
I like your explanation. And TheNOP's as well.

Please then tell me what causes the transistor to heat up?

Wouldn't only partially opening the transistor CE path create resistance in the transistor and thus heat buildup? Or am I thinking of a transistor acting more like a resistor and/or relay?

Jadaro:

My understanding, and others that know more can correct me, is that a transistor is either off or on. No in between. there is "supposed" to be nothing bleeding through partially either before it switches on, or off. That is why it is one beautiful invention. (Thank you Mr. Shockley) Now maybe, given manufacturing tolerances, there is some partial seepage. If so, it would be news to me but then, I am getting used to learning from you folks on here.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 24, 2009, 03:47:21 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on April 24, 2009, 02:16:55 AM
My understanding, and others that know more can correct me, is that a transistor is either off or on. No in between. there is "supposed" to be nothing bleeding through partially either before it switches on, or off. That is why it is one beautiful invention. (Thank you Mr. Shockley) Now maybe, given manufacturing tolerances, there is some partial seepage. If so, it would be news to me but then, I am getting used to learning from you folks on here.

not exactly true.
transistor can be half on, if it wasn't able to be, you could not use it to amplify a signal.
the voltage between the base and emitter of the transistor determine the currents that will pass between the collector and the emitter.

it is true that, in the case of the jt, we are using the transistor as a switch tho.

but nothing is perfect, our transistor switch is not perfectly on or off.
that is why all transistors have a frequency limits, time is needed for them to fully conduct.
some transistor are close to be as fast as a mechanical switch tho, in regard to the time needed before conducting.
they are call fast switching transistors

@jadaro2600
the currents passing trough the transistor create the heat, more current, more heat.
all transistors have internal resistance, just like any semiconductors do.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: captainpecan on April 24, 2009, 04:00:31 AM

I have been trying to get caught up on this thread for a while, damn, it's friggin' huge! For good reason too, this circuit is superb and a lot of fun to learn from! Just wanted to pop in and share my latest replication of it. I cant say it's free energy, but I can definitely say it's making me scratch my head and redo tests over and over...

Thanks to Pirate for peaking my interest in this circuit some time back!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pr2_YkVxReQ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 24, 2009, 04:51:15 AM

@ Captainpecan:

Good to see you! Nice video. Welcome to our group of merry experimenters here. Actually, you will see a few pages back that the Young Effect was being discussed in a positive manner. These are good folks here. Open minded, intelligent and very helpful. I don't think any of us has reached the limits of what this circuit can do. It is not magic by any means but, I still believe it is one of those overlooked things in science that has a place for further exploration. The folks here are very sharp. I am having a lot of trouble trying to keep up with them.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on April 24, 2009, 09:54:15 AM

Quote from: captainpecan on April 24, 2009, 04:00:31 AM
I have been trying to get caught up on this thread for a while, damn, it's friggin' huge! For good reason too, this circuit is superb and a lot of fun to learn from! Just wanted to pop in and share my latest replication of it. I cant say it's free energy, but I can definitely say it's making me scratch my head and redo tests over and over...

Thanks to Pirate for peaking my interest in this circuit some time back!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pr2_YkVxReQ

Hello captainpecan and welcome .
I Like your Video A+ .the Music almost gave me convulsions though ;D Really Mind blowing when you got Vertigo :o Can you Share what circuit you used and the size of your toroid and winding ? Thank you for discovering the cap effect . I have never seen it demonstrated in a better way than you did . Very out side the box thinker . We need your concepts here to further this project along . Lots more coming !!!

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on April 24, 2009, 10:08:32 AM

@ Jeanna

In the picture I recently posted you will see one side of the coil having a double crossover and the other side does not. On your Mk1 do you have a single or double crossover winding? Also Do you have any pic's on your set-up? I'm a big visual learner :o

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 24, 2009, 12:05:18 PM

@ jadaro2600

Quote from: jadaro2600 on April 24, 2009, 02:10:58 AM
IWouldn't only partially opening the transistor CE path create resistance in the transistor and thus heat buildup? Or am I thinking of a transistor acting more like a resistor and/or relay?

Like NOP said, the transistor is much like a variable resistor. But the resistance never goes all the way to zero. The amount of heat generated is current squared times the resistance. When the transistors resistance is high the current is low so not much heat is generated. When the resistance is low the current is high and the high current generates a lot of heat. Since the amount of heat generated is proportional to the square of the current, doubling the current produces twice as much more heat as doubling the resistance.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 24, 2009, 01:18:52 PM

Good morning everybody,
Welcome captainpecan.

Bill, there is another thing to remember about the transistor being off or on. If you leave the battery in and don't switch the juice off, you will drain .7v (or maybe .3v for germanium) because it is not quite off ever. It is a little open all the time. It is why my candle circuits with a switch outlast (by 20 days) the commercial circuits with a flicker. They use a transistor to make the flicker.

stprue, I have made them every way you can imagine, and probably more.

Until last week all my bifilar wraps were not crossed in the center except for the MK1, because it is part of the MK1 design to do that.
In fact, the MK0.8 is a MK1 in every way except it has a non crossed bifilar primary. It does well, but I think this double cross is solving the problems of looseness, I was having with the single crossed primary.

=====
Yesterday's tests were preliminary in some ways, but they did show the reciprocal relationship between the frequency and voltage output.
There seemed to be a bit uf uncertainty so I want to put this out for everyone straight up, so to speak:
The base resistor is just the "rheostat" that determines the resistance which in turn determines the speed of switching.
It is the speed of switching = the frequency- that I was after for my switching transistor.

Today, I will return to the 2 tier circuit.
I can see it was a good idea.
I mean, if N Tesla did it in his patent, I guess I can do it too. ;)

N Tesla brought in a small amount of generated electricity. He didn't care. I could be from any source.
Then he used it to fill and discharge sparks.
These were low voltage sparks.
The sparks happened at high frequency.
Then, he used a transformer element with a lot of "very thin wire" in his circuit to raise the voltage.
For us this transformer is a second transformer.
But that is because the first one is part of the jtc and producing the switching frequency.

I am going to play with the 2 tiered circuit in this way.
First to create high frequency but maybe not so much voltage, then, second to raise the voltage by means of a transformer.
I will be using a toroid to do that, but maybe it is the wrong kind of transformer at this point. We'll see.

It is already 10 o'clock! Oh yes, that is AM. whew... ;D

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 24, 2009, 01:50:37 PM

Quote from: stprue on April 24, 2009, 10:08:32 AM
@ Jeanna

In the picture I recently posted you will see one side of the coil having a double crossover and the other side does not. On your Mk1 do you have a single or double crossover winding? Also Do you have any pic's on your set-up? I'm a big visual learner :o

The pictures I have already posted (page489,490) are the best I have. But the details of the wind are too fuzzy for my MK0.4 or 0.8.
I need to get out the xo-laptop. It took awesome pictures. but later, I want to do some other things first.)

sorry.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on April 24, 2009, 01:59:19 PM

No prob. ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on April 24, 2009, 02:12:09 PM

@all

Did anyone try Artic_Knights idea back on page 496? If so what were your results?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 24, 2009, 04:11:08 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 24, 2009, 01:18:52 PM
N Tesla brought in a small amount of generated electricity. He didn't care. I could be from any source.
Then he used it to fill and discharge sparks.
These were low voltage sparks.
The sparks happened at high frequency.
Then, he used a transformer element with a lot of "very thin wire" in his circuit to raise the voltage.

most transformers Tesla was using are not "conventional" transformers.

if it is a coreless transformer, very high frequency is needed for good coupling.
be carefull not to mismatch infos of both kind.
what apply to one might not nescessarly apply to the other in the same exact ways.

Tesla was relying on capacitive coupling in most of his experiments.
i am not saying he was not also using induction, he does, but to a lesser degree.

at very high frequencies, you can't have a core because a core at those frequencies would create too much losses.
Eddy currents and hesteresis losses.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on April 24, 2009, 07:56:53 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 22, 2009, 11:18:19 PM
@Hazens,
good job. 25 in series.
Did you stop when the lights dimmed?
Soon we will be able to light those christmas strings from our own wound toroids!

jeanna

Here's 58 in series. Dropped the resistor down to 500 ohm, everything else is the same. Brightness is about half compared to the 25 in series.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on April 24, 2009, 08:31:27 PM

Where did you get the good deal on those leds again?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dog812 on April 24, 2009, 09:36:39 PM

There is tons of LED's on ebay.. That is where i get all mine for my hula hoops.

Nice work hazens.. What parts are you using in that JT?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 24, 2009, 09:51:00 PM

@Hazens
Fantastic. 500 ohm. not bad. I bet the amps draw on that battery is no too bad either. Nice.

@All,
I decided to make a sketch of how I have connected all the wires in the 2 tier arrangement.
I made this for myself to help me wrap my head around what is happening.
There are 3 coils of wire going around 2 toroids.
Only one transistor is needed.
I lowered the resistor because there was not enough light. Now, I may try to raise it again, because it is quite bright. It is lighting 2 leds in series in 2 related, but separate places.

I just want to have you all get a look at the crazy way the connections are here. This produces the best light, however, there are many ways to get light out of these wires when the first tier is put into the second tier as a complex source.

Remember, there is no separate battery, no transistor, and no base resistor on the second tier.

I did one thing which gave a surprise which I need to follow up.
I had made just 1 turn around the second tier toroid to free up the real secondary wires to test them.
Then, just to see, I used that single turned wire in place of the other and yup it was way bright. I think brighter.

That is when I decided to ask you to have a look.
Maybe the turns differential going way down on the second tier will be advantageous.
Ah more questions than ever.
Please have a look, and I invite comments. (be kind ;) )

jeanna

Red and green are secondary wires, purple wires are the second tier primary bifilar.

EDIT
The vital stats are
220 ohm
125 KHz
59 V
measuring the 80 turns green second tier secondary wire ends while the single turn is in making the bright lights brighter.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on April 24, 2009, 11:14:11 PM

Quote from: dog812 on April 24, 2009, 09:36:39 PM
Nice work hazens.. What parts are you using in that JT?

Here's a diagram.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on April 24, 2009, 11:19:40 PM

Quote from: stprue on April 24, 2009, 08:31:27 PM
Where did you get the good deal on those leds again?

Ebay. Follow the link. Takes about 2 weeks from Hong Kong retailer. He has all kinds and many different colors. I bought the 100 super bright white for $8.99 shipped.

http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/dxy_dxyduan (http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/dxy_dxyduan)

Edit:
I plugged my 7-7-70-70 coil on the Goldmine 1inch 5for$1 toroid into the circuit. I changed the cap to a 100nf. I'm measuring 42ma input and of course this coils sings as I believe it is resonating. LEDs are approx 3 times brighter than my previous test with the 3/8 inch toroid at 100ma input. The first pic is with the lights in my room dimmed and the other 2 are with the lights on. All pics are with the camera flash off. I'm gonna wire in some more LEDs in series. I bet this setup will light all 100+ of my LEDs without flinching. Talk about Super Bright 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 25, 2009, 01:48:04 AM

@ hazens1

Congratulations on your excellent circuit performance and thanks for posting the photos and circuit diagram. I also think your 7-7-70-70 will light 100 LEDs. It may even be able to light a CFL if you remove the rectifier.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 25, 2009, 01:57:44 AM

Wow Hazens1, this is great. It is so bright!
Have you tried these non rectified?
I think they should work without the rectifier. I am curious.

@All,
I think I am making my second tier thing too complicated.
I am beginning to think I only need an ordinary inductor.

I have never made one, but it should be easy after all this circular type.

Last week or when it all started, I had made up the 2 tiers and used the secondary from one to power the next.
But it was terrible. It was very dim.
MK1 had just mentioned that some of these transistors are able to work in reverse direction. So, just in case mine would work backwards, I took it out to flip it.
But when I took it out nothing happened to the lights. So, I had several extra wires, then I dropped one and it landed on the a hole and the lights got very bright, and that is when it all started.

I can see by the diagram I put up earlier, that there appears to be some duplication of leads. Maybe I don't need so many wires. Maybe I just need 2 and maybe neither one needs to be bifilar. At this second tier place anyhow.

It should be easy to try.
I will get to that this weekend.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 25, 2009, 02:27:10 AM

@ Jeanna:

I have been working on replicating Jonnydavro's No Bearing One Magnet Bedini Motor. I have 2 videos on youtube but have not posted them here as it is a bit off topic. However, several other folks have placed air core coils along the high speed spinning magnet and are getting very good power output from them. these coils are no more than a Radio shack coils of magnet wire as it comes from the store. This is being used as a "pick-up" coil. Not bifilar. Maybe the same thing is true for your pick-up coils as well. Let me know and I can post links to mine, Lidmoter's and Jonnydavro's videos on this device. Great work Jeanna as always.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 25, 2009, 02:42:58 AM

@all,
You are all doing excellent work here, puts me to shame with my lack of posting, but I just did something which took over a week to do.

This is not related to the actual Joule Thief itself but it could be.

My Accedential Experimental Battery Recovery Experiment.

I got myself 2 x 12v 12AH Gell cells from my local scrap place, it turned out 1 was OK, but the other Gell cell batt just wouldn't take a charge, no matter how much I abused it. Read trying to pump in a 12v batt a charge of up to 28volts.

So I took off (prized) all the access covers, and put in 20mm of water in each cell.
Still no go, it wouldnt charge.
Then I added about 60mm of hot water to each cell from the tap, now it began to recharge, but only to about 5volts.

Then I boiled the billy, got the water stinking hot, filled the syerange and put some more "HOT HOT water" in each cell.
Well well well, the battery recovered, it came right up to full voltage, at a charge rate of 13.1 volts at half an amp.

I can only assume, the hot water was the key to break down the sulfation on the plates.
BOILING WATER, be careful with it.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 25, 2009, 04:56:49 AM

@Jeanna,
Back on P524 you mentioned something about a pure sine wave.

I'm not sure if you know this but to get a pure sine wave out of a single 1.5v DC battery, using a single transistor is a very big achievement, so you have my congradulations.
See if the same waveform exists on your scope by changing the transistor to a different one of the same value and type.

If we can now take a look at the UPS power supply, the first ones were square waves which were inverted, then the waveforms started looking like a staircase, then as progress was made they eventually became heeps of tiny squarewaves to look like a sine wave.

Well done Jeanna.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on April 25, 2009, 09:36:08 AM

Quote from: jeanna on April 25, 2009, 01:57:44 AM
Wow Hazens1, this is great. It is so bright!
Have you tried these non rectified?
I think they should work without the rectifier. I am curious.

Yes, I've tried without the rectifier and it still works. Slightly less bright though.

Here is an update with 96 LEDs in series. I switched out my rechargeable for an almost dead alkaline at 1.15 volts. Now, I'm really out of breadboard realestate :P but I know it will do more ;D

I have a toast 12v Lead Acid motorcycle battery from my 1985 Honda Shadow 500 VTC. I believe it won't take a charge anymore because of sulfation buildup. I'm going to try hooking this circuit up to it to see if I can fix it.

Edit:
Added some more pics with the room lights dimmed. First 2 lights on, second 2 lights dimmed. Last one is a bonus pic ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on April 25, 2009, 10:13:29 AM

Quote from: electricme on April 25, 2009, 02:42:58 AM
@all,
You are all doing excellent work here, puts me to shame with my lack of posting, but I just did something which took over a week to do.

This is not related to the actual Joule Thief itself but it could be.

My Accedential Experimental Battery Recovery Experiment.

I got myself 2 x 12v 12AH Gell cells from my local scrap place, it turned out 1 was OK, but the other Gell cell batt just wouldn't take a charge, no matter how much I abused it. Read trying to pump in a 12v batt a charge of up to 28volts.

So I took off (prized) all the access covers, and put in 20mm of water in each cell.
Still no go, it wouldnt charge.
Then I added about 60mm of hot water to each cell from the tap, now it began to recharge, but only to about 5volts.

Then I boiled the billy, got the water stinking hot, filled the syerange and put some more "HOT HOT water" in each cell.
Well well well, the battery recovered, it came right up to full voltage, at a charge rate of 13.1 volts at half an amp.

I can only assume, the hot water was the key to break down the sulfation on the plates.
BOILING WATER, be careful with it.

jim

Jim

There is another way to recondition old batterys

Here is a link for the booklet that I learned it from .
http://www.eagle-research.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=35
It has been years sense I bought the booklet ........I can't find it any more. ....... I think this site is worth supporting .
This site was the first place I learned about open source .

I have made several recoditioners and used them for years .
I recondition the battery in my var a couple times a year . ..

Basicly the reconditioner is just a capacitor and bridge
The idea is to provide a low power pulsing DC current
The size of the cap is important .... it must be small enough to avoid creating bubles as it charges . .......

I reconditioned a sealed lead acid battery from a UPS that had been sitting in storage for years .
It was down to .4 V
It took several weeks with a .1uF cap to get it up to normal voltage ......it has been OK for over a year now .
I am currently testing the charger on NiCads ...... one of my 18 V Dewalt batterys is shot ..........It had only used them a couple times in the last few years ........... one is holding a charge pretty good .........the other will not longer take a charge from its charger .........it tries a couple of minutes then flashes an error signal .....

I will let you k know if the battery recovers . .... it is making very slow progress so far .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on April 25, 2009, 10:31:38 AM

@ Jenna,

Great work on those super brights!

@ All

i think i have a different Ocilating curcuit to try, ill give it a go sometime and report news if any is worth reporting. basically the transistor is leaky and wastes current, what i would like to see is all the current 100% ocilated (no steady current mixed with variable current) i have had no luck eleminating the steady currents that leave the transistor to the battery. this curcuit might do it since it should eliminate the transister all together. the rig is basically the same that we have been using however one of the 2 orig coils will be tied to a cap only, when the battery is turned on the magnetism produced will charge the cap and when able to do so will create a reverse burst of magnetism stopping the flow. hopfully it works as well as i want :).

the trouble with this curcuit is we will need to add a step up transformer after getting the current to oscilate.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on April 25, 2009, 10:41:22 AM

Great work hazens1

:)

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 25, 2009, 11:46:44 AM

@hazens

Nice work there , you may want to try them in parallel , they should be brighter , but you did show high voltage there.

@artic knight

A transformer doesn't work on dc, you need ac to make the voltage jump from the primary to secondary.
The transistor is needed for creating the kick.

@jeanna
Nice work , i always thought that the voltage would be higher at a faster freq, well it seems i was wrong.
Its a good thing that you are sharing those valuable info , keep the good work.

On the pure ac , it looks like a perfect wave but in ac the 0v is in the middle of the wave, i think on the jt the wave is a bit offset.But it dose look real nice tho.

Mark

Edit . I have found a real nice book on Tesla's work

http://www.scribd.com/doc/13040608/The-Researches-of-Nikola-Tesla-1894

http://www.scribd.com/doc/259156/LyneOccult-Ether-Physics-Teslas-Hidden-Space-Propulsion-System

http://www.scribd.com/doc/3876818/Denicolai-Tesla-Transformer-for-Experimentation-and-Research-96pp2001

There are more details then in the patents.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on April 25, 2009, 12:00:06 PM

@Hazens1

Great work and great proformance on your coil. Thanks for the link to the leds ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 25, 2009, 12:34:58 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on April 25, 2009, 11:46:44 AM

http://www.scribd.com/doc/259156/LyneOccult-Ether-Physics-Teslas-Hidden-Space-Propulsion-System

when a paper contain more occult and suppression theories then provable scientific faqs, i call it a novel...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dog812 on April 25, 2009, 12:55:05 PM

@hazens
Nice work man..

@all

What is the pros and cons to hooking up led's in series or paralell. I have been thinking of hooking mine up in series.. for my hula hoops. But i dont know if it is a good idea. If one goes they all go out.correct.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on April 25, 2009, 01:51:44 PM

@MK1

yes the magnetic current has to change to induce a current but can 2 coils alone turn each other off and cause a pulsing dc current? this i shall test.

@ all

could someone be so kind as to test this basic joule setup and tell me what the output is on the osciliscope? if i could get a picture of it that would be fantasic and greatly appreciated! im looking to see what the voltage out is, what its pattern is, even its frequency. im also looking to see if it drops back to 0v output between cycles. this setup is using the standard torrid with the transistor and a small capacitor. the output reading that im curious about comes from the return path to the battery.

if anyone is able to do this quick test for me i would be most grateful for the data!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 25, 2009, 02:59:09 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on April 25, 2009, 12:34:58 PM
when a paper contain more occult and suppression theories then provable scientific faqs, i call it a novel...

Nop disregard that one , if its not for you , but the other ones are still worth reading.
But honestly , fiction doesn't really exist , and the occult by definition is secret , and only for the ruling class of this world,
Don't take my word for it, the truth will not be televised , quand radio can , raconte des mensonges au nouvelle de 6 h , c'est pas facile de comprendre , ou de savoir la verite . Meme la soit disante mytology grec , quand Platon et c est solide platonique son't en avance sur nos technologie et compreention moderne, et que la republique est aussi une vraie description du monde moderne , la verite n'existe plus . La verite est quelque chose de personel .
Si tu veut commence par quelque google video sur la fleur de la vie. Aussi fait des recherche sur bohemian grove,
Apres , on parlera si tu le desir . Mais regarde ces video seulement si tu est pas trop religieux , si non ca peut t'affecter.

Marc

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 25, 2009, 03:02:52 PM

@all

I found this one, the coil could be put on a toroid , this should work on 1.5 volts . it could be a way to have a single kicking coil, leaving more room for more pickup coils or we could do a dual circuit so two coil in a pull push config.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 25, 2009, 03:03:30 PM

MK1,
Thanks for that fabulous book. I will be reading it all day 514 pages. Tesla speaking to audiences demonstrating his ideas etc. Much was normal back then and forgotten now. It is so amazing that they were setting up experiments to watch the sparks and wonder at them. Fabulous. He also has named names of those who described alternating currents before him. Very nice. Thank you.

Quickly,
Thanks Jim, MK1 Bill and anyone else for the appreciation.

@Dog812,
In series you need more volts. That is the reason lighting 25 of them or OMG 58 in series is significant. It shows a strength in the system that is not needed in a parallel arrangement.

In parallel if you have one that is more "open" to current it will take it and the rest will suffer and, I think??, it could blow because it is getting too much.

I am not sure if one going out will kill them all at this higher frequency we are using on the secondary of the jtc.

My guess is that if you take the time to make sure none are much brighter than others you will be ok. Maybe make tester with a very high high resistor (150 ohm) and 2 batteries on a breadboard and just pop in all your leds 2 or 4 in parallel and see how they look in comparison. Maybe you could make one like that for all in one HH. Get the resistance so high you can only see a dot of light. That ought to be an easy way to check for even-ness.
Maybe throw a red in series first to make the whole string behave for the test.

Anybody else with a good and easy way. ?

@AK,
I am not sure how to accomplish what you are wanting. If you put the cap in there you seriously lower the voltage spikes, for one thing. And anyway, where could you apply the probes to see what you want to see in oscillation? Between the base resistor and the battery neg? Between the bat pos and the tap? Through a resistor?

Also, have you looked at the mag-amp. MK1 has periodically presented us with mag-amp links. You can more easily find these on Bill's circuits thread. I have seen them there.
The mag-amp makes oscillations without a transistor. It uses a cap and pot in parallel together between 2 toroids.
(I will be playing with this but have not yet.)
It does it by means of a relationship between 2 cores and 4 coils and different rates of magnetic flux. It is something I need to come back to . I am not able to think in those terms yet.
Butler winding web site has more details. I think MK1 has posted the link in the other thread too.

OK, I'm back to 1894 and Tesla giving a lecture.

syl,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 25, 2009, 03:11:36 PM

@all

I think this is what Jeanna is taking about , crating a pulse from resonant circuit made of one resistor and one cap.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 25, 2009, 04:59:24 PM

Oh this is cool

Remember how I noticed a reciprocal relationship between frequency and volts?
But, it was surely not linear like ohms law. and it was definitely always going in the same reciprocal way.
It never reversed that part.

In the lecture I am reading NT refers to this and proposes a 'law' which he has not proved and which he says would be very difficult to prove. (No kidding. without a scope - very.)

light and heat from a spark, which I would perhaps consider to be watts?
so, substituting watts for light and heat from a spark:

W=F x V²

W= watts (or pico watts)
F= frequency of oscillation perhaps in Hz because this is what he was using
V = volts

EDIT: On further thought, not watts, but something that has the same or similar effect but is NOT watts. ( - I like this idea.)

Anybody who wants to try that today before I get a chance, have at it!

jeanna

EDIT ADD
this is too sweet. We already know his sentiments but this is so hopeful. I put it here because we are fulfilling his goals now in this century on this forum.

... "We may be producing a practical illuminant on these lines. We would then be simply using burners or flames, in which there would be no chemical process, no consumption of material, but merely a transfer of energy, and which would, in all probability, emit more light and less heat than ordinary flames. "
N Tesla

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 25, 2009, 05:27:31 PM

@ Hazens1:

Very nice work there. That is a lot of light!

I have to read the Tesla links. This is great.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 25, 2009, 07:03:37 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on April 25, 2009, 02:59:09 PM
Nop disregard that one , if its not for you , but the other ones are still worth reading.

too later, i red the 3 of them.
that is why i said, one of them is not usefull.

why do you say ancients great philosophers knew better ?
modern sciences are based on their works, and theirs works were based on what they observed in nature.
atoms, when first said existed, was the smallest possible thing in the universe, but today we know better.

Tesla was a genie, no daought about that.
but he was not playing with magic things, unlike what most peoples here seem to think.
he was able to think of the outcome of his experiments even before doing them.
the reason he still was doing them was to prove it to himself.
but to do that, you must understand with what you are playing with, you must know all or at least most of the rules.

you don't trust the news but you trust unknown men/women who wrote unverifiable things just because he/she wrote it in an occult/obscure way. ???
nature does not work on believes, it work on rules.
sometime there are special cases, sometime there are none, but the rules will always be there.

might be better to take this private if we are to argue about what is truth.

about the circuit here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg174236#msg174236

the 1k resistor is in the way.
it is protecting the transistor from heavy currents, but it is also limiting the inrush currents effect.

@all
in series the total resistance limit the currents passing in each led, no matter if your supply can provide you more.
in parallel you are not limiting the currents passing in the leds.

but, in both cases, be carefull that the voltage is not way higher then what the leds can tolerate.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 25, 2009, 08:08:01 PM

@ hazens1

If my theory of base resistance vs frequency is correct, then reducing the number of turns on the base coil should allow the current in the collector coil to get to a larger level before the transistor is turned off. This is because the amount of current induced in the base coil is a function of the number of turns - more turns equals more current, less turns equals less current. Since the voltage produced across the collector coil is a function of the current flowing through it when the transistor is turned off, then allowing the current to increase to a larger level before turning the transistor off should create a larger voltage across the collector coil when the magnetic field collapses. This in turn should produce more power in the pickup coil. Therefore, by changing the number of turns on your base coil from 7 to 2 you should produce more output power from the pickup coil in your 7-7-70-70 circuit. This might be helpful if you try to light a fluorescent tube.

NOTE - you do not have to remove your 7 turn base coil, just add a 2 turn coil and use that for the base coil.

previously posted theory re-posted so you know what I am talking about:

THEORY OF JOULE THIEF FREQUENCY VS BASE RESISTOR VALUE

Increasing the base resistor value reduces the base current. This current flows through the base coil. When the resistor value is high the current is very small. When the base resistor value is low the base current is larger.

When the transistor turns on the current increases slowly in the collector coil (as a result of the inductance of the coil). The changing current in the collector coil induces a current in the base coil that opposes the base current that is already flowing there due to the base resistor. The larger the current change in the collector coil is, the larger the opposing induced current in the base coil will be.

When the transistor turns on the collector coil current builds up very slowly. But at some point the increasing current in the collector coil will be large enough that the opposing induced current in the base coil will be large enough to cancel the current due to the base resistor and then the transistor will turn off. If the base resistor value is small, then the base current will be large and it will take longer for the opposing base coil current to increases to a large enough value to be big enough to cancel the base current flowing due to the resistor. Thus it takes longer for the transistor to be turned back off when the base current is large (small base resistor value) than when the base current is small (large base resistor value).

The frequency is just how often the transistor is turned on and off. With a small base resistor value (large base current) this happens less often during each second due to the longer time it takes the transistor to be turned back off. Thus increasing base resistor value increases frequency and decreasing base resistor value decreases frequency.

So frequency depends on the base resistor value and the collector coil inductance.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 25, 2009, 08:23:28 PM

@Nop

Nature is magic.Like i said truth is inside the man, your truth is not better then mine or mine better then yours.
Modern man always assume what is and what can be, until proven wrong .

But the occult doesn't mean magic in any way , it only means hidden, and believe me there are some crazy people
ruling over us , with some really crazy values and practices , how can you see a prison without bars, prison for the mind.

Human history as tough is only partial truth.

We can't even get how important plato and his revelation are yet, even with this modern technology we have now.

And my views on relevance of the occult tesla book, is still undetermined , since i did not even have time to read the said book. That being said , i can't say if anything is more truthful then anything else. I can said that if a man can think its a mater of time before he can realize his tough, aren't we living in a star trek technology world.

My point is unexplained can be conceived as magic , and man has a long history of taking advantage of others less knowledgeable man.

My message is to keep a open mind , and a pure heart !

I know many time , i said things that seems crazy , and go overboard on ideological views , because i feel there is no time have a closed mind.

I would love it if everyone could know the real nature of man and gods , anything you see on this earth are based on the flower of life , and i believe that man is here to learn to love ( having no ego to cloud there judgment or actions) only then dose the real truth will be reveled step by step. But every soul will see it in a way that is best for them.

In the end all i am saying we no longer have the luxury to think that we know more or have the most evolved technology
then Pre-Diluvian Civilizations , we are only starting to see what the oldest human text mean. And lest face it most technologies we use everyday was invented to make war , from there conception to execution , in a war there are many fronts , there is even a war being fought in every one mind , these days internet is under assault and its mater of time before they stop it.

I would really like to show you stuff , that will make think and maybe you will see what i mean .But I your are willing .

Also free energy and perpetual is old stuff , it works . check magnetic current page 22 for details.

But sometimes truth is so simple , the modern man likes complicating stuff , and this is a weakness.

I don't pretend knowing everything , because i know nothing more then i think i do.

But like a said no harm here or argument , i would just love people to keep a opened mind.

Mark

Any of you that read this , please find your own answer to life big questions.

The real genius of Tesla was his intentions , he never made anything to make money of the back of others , he did all those great things for us free of charge.

This is on of the reason he was hidden , from the common man. And said to be crazy.

Yes i know i am crazy , but that is not all i am .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 25, 2009, 09:41:40 PM

deleted - was useless post.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on April 25, 2009, 10:13:51 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 25, 2009, 03:03:30 PM
In series you need more volts. That is the reason lighting 25 of them or OMG 58 in series is significant. It shows a strength in the system that is not needed in a parallel arrangement.

OMG, you must have missed my post with 96 in series :o

@xee2
Thanks, I'll have to give that a try. I've tried to light modified CFL tubes before, but so far I've only got the end to flicker a little. I have a 13watt and a 26watt, so maybe I'm trying to light to much wattage and need to locate a smaller tube. Maybe a 4 or 8 watt.

@All
I've noticed another interesting thing about the 7-7-70-70 coil. I can light LEDs using only 1 wire hooked to the Positive of the series. They are very faint, but brighten a little when I touch the Negative with my finger. Also, If I touch the Negative of the series with one hand and the Negative of the Rectifier output with the other hand all the LEDs are almost as bright as if they were connected directly. The electricity must be passing through my body to bridge the connection. I'll try to get some pics later.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 25, 2009, 10:36:54 PM

Quote from: hazens1 on April 25, 2009, 10:13:51 PM
OMG, you must have missed my post with 96 in series :o

You caught me, Hazens. I forgot the number but at the time didn't bother to check. Please accept my apologies.
96 96 96 96 96 96 yeay 96!! ;D

Quote@All
I've noticed another interesting thing about the 7-7-70-70 coil. I can light LEDs using only 1 wire hooked to the Positive of the series. They are very faint, but brighten a little when I touch the Negative with my finger. Also, If I touch the Negative of the series with one hand and the Negative of the Rectifier output with the other hand all the LEDs are almost as bright as if they were connected directly. The electricity must be passing through my body to bridge the connection. I'll try to get some pics later.

Here is a quote from the NT lecture I am still reading. It is jammed with great information. It is a favorite thing for me to go back into times past and listen. This and the other books from that link are really good for that . There is even a Tesla AUTObiography at that site.

I will leave it white because it is easier to read.

Quotequote from N Tesla:

"The preceding experiment is only one of many equally interesting experiments which may be performed by the use of only
one wire with alternations of high potential and frequency. We may connect an insulated line to a source of such currents, we may pass an inappreciable current over the line, and on any point of the same we are able to obtain a heavy current, capable of fusing a thick copper wire. Or we may, by the help of some artifice, decompose a solution in any electrolytic cell by connecting only one pole of the cell to the line or source of energy. "

Quoteendquote

page 236
The Researches of Nikola Tesla 1894

This is a book written by a contemporary. Real history.
Thanks MK1.

I have repeatedly heard this phenomenon sloughed off as "just capacitive coupling" or something like this as though it were not important or a solution. I believe this is a very important thing and I am delighted to hear that you have found it experimentally.

I will keep reading,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 25, 2009, 10:43:04 PM

Hazens1,
I keep forgetting to ask you. On your 7T,7T,70,70
Is the 70,70 done like the MK1? Which means did you go up 35, down 35 then across and up 35 then down 35?

I have a 7T,7T,70 and I would like to make it into a replication.
Is it on a medium?

thanks

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 25, 2009, 11:23:33 PM

@all

Two really interesting drawing.

the first one is from a generator for boat.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 26, 2009, 12:03:42 AM

@all

Be safe stay at least 3 feet away from any stranger, the pandemic is only starting . And its worst than reported.

Mark

Good bless the cause and you all !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 26, 2009, 12:45:53 AM

Seriously, this stuff is always worse than they tell us. It is coming up through our porous border from Mexico. If these folks were coming in legally, they would all have been vaccinated and checked. Not a perfect defense but a heck of a lot better than what is happening now.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 26, 2009, 01:56:24 AM

@pirate

There are no vaccine for this strain of flu, i would not go get a vaccine even forced because i think it may get there.
In this carbon tax world getting a mix of nano chips and a potentially deadly mix of dead virus , because we are still the biggest producer of co2 , they plan on taxing life , they will get carbon credit for population reduction .
This is the plan , they have been working hard for years to get people to accept the fact that population reduction would be a good thing, ecologist have been mislead into thinking so , and the message has worked .
Yes some animals will go of the face of this earth , but that is natures way , otherwise we would still have dinosaurs running around today. there will still be life on this planet humans or not, and the evolution continues .

Mark

One man can not change the world , but one man can bring the message that will change it!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 26, 2009, 02:06:35 AM

Whats ina bottle? anti pendemic stuff
This is for Mark or anyone who needs to get better
Its MMS, get a "starter kit" to begin

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 26, 2009, 02:34:48 AM

Thanks Electricme !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 26, 2009, 02:50:23 AM

MK1:

I had a swine flu shot back in the 70's when I was in college. My cousin, who was head of Allied Chemical's Metglas Division at that time, had a bad reaction to it and spent 5 years crippled in a wheelchair from it. I know this is a different strain, they always are. I just hope Jack Daniels will cure it.

Thanks Jim, I will check that out.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 26, 2009, 02:57:54 AM

@pirate

Lol, i hope jack will do !

As long as we can stay away from human butchers .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 26, 2009, 05:49:14 AM

@all
I have just been listening to the Regional and the National Australian news on ABC TV.
They mentioned the Swine Flu which is in America, hold onto your hats, guys n gals, it has hit New Zealand, there are 10 recorded cases already there.
None here in Ausie so far, I expect this to change in a few days. :-\

Although I have a burning question, just how come this flu appears in America and New Zealand within the same day?
It usually takes a few days to incubate before symptons to show up, this smacks of delibratly being spread. >:(

I was speaking to Bill yesterday and we both didn't have any idea of this, and this is so widespread, I think it is a NWO thing.

If you want any chance of travelling through it better than others, then google for "MMS Jim Humble" ;D
Then order a "starter kitt"
Or gointo a health shop and ask them about it.
Take vitamin C for at least 2 weeks before you begin the MMS

@Bill,
I will send you my "accent" hahhahahaha ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 26, 2009, 06:48:06 AM

G'day Jim:

Actually, I heard that this originated in Mexico. Then quickly moved into southern California and several other areas of our southwest. (Close to the Mexican border) The problem in modern day society is that if someone coughs on you in southern California today, and you get on a plane (exposing everyone on the plane as you breathe the same air) and go to NZ then infect 10 others there that infect 10 others....it will grow exponentially. (and I am not good at math) All those other folks on the plane will also infect countless thousands. This could get very bad very quickly. I don't know what the incubation period for this is but if it is like a typical flu, 2-5 days. So, there were already thousands probably infected or exposed before the first symptoms showed up in the 2nd wave of infected folks.

Be safe everyone. Thanks for that information Jim.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on April 26, 2009, 09:25:06 AM

Quote from: jeanna on April 25, 2009, 10:43:04 PM
Hazens1,
I keep forgetting to ask you. On your 7T,7T,70,70
Is the 70,70 done like the MK1? Which means did you go up 35, down 35 then across and up 35 then down 35?

I have a 7T,7T,70 and I would like to make it into a replication.
Is it on a medium?

thanks

jeanna

Nope, It's all one direction. I wound 7t Base, then 7t Collector then 70t Pickup on the Goldmine Medium 5 for $1. I later came back and wound a second 70t Pickup in between the previous 70t Pickup. On the Pickup coils, the inside layer is a double and the outside layer is a single. This is all done using 26g magnet wire. If you think about how the 2 pickups are wired in my latest tests, it is actually a 7-7-140 coil. I plan on making this MK1 style when I have time to wind more coils to compare performance.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 26, 2009, 11:33:25 AM

@all

The incubation period is 10 days without symptoms , 10 to infect your friend and loved ones.
This is not a joke.

Mark

@hazen1

Can you test for dead spots, make a single turn pickup coil , and check the voltage around the toroid by moving that coil and checking the voltage with a bridge, depending on the toroid there may not be one, but you will see , so basically look for a spot where there is less voltage or none. This will tell you if the design could be improved.If there is no dead spot then use smaller gauge to make more turns, to improve on your design .

i hope this will help

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 26, 2009, 11:47:20 AM

@all

I have been replicating the mk1 high voltage, on other toroid , now i am really confused , my meter show below 200 v then it goes over , i change the setting to 1000v now its showing me 800 v, but if i go back to the 200 v setting it show under 200v
so i get readings in both ranges , my meter is not helping much on this , i scope would be better .
But my new toroid are good but strange readings .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on April 26, 2009, 11:50:22 AM

the picture i post here has the battery and probe info i was hoping for. what i wanted to see is the frequency, wave, and voltage information for the pure oscilation version of this curcuit. the cap is included to supposedly increase the frequency and the resistor is removed to see how the curcuit would like to perform with no restrictions. its been years since i had access to a osciliscope and dont recall how to properly probe (plus dont have access to one yet :'( ) but im interested in the output of the "oscilating curcuit" itself as this should be.

my objective is to find the simplest purest and best performing oscilator then from there build up on it to power what ever be the case and hopefully being mindful of these objectives come to a better version of the joule thief :)

thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Thaelin on April 26, 2009, 11:58:51 AM

Hi all:
Just wanted to share my last bit of fun. I made a jt out of a large metal washer. It worked ok
but what was funny was the scope output wave. It has two distinct waves with one superimposed
over the other one. Like haveing the on and off pulses of the transistor riding on an AC signal. Very
strange. Funny to see it. Other than that, nothing to boast about for output wise.

thaelin

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on April 26, 2009, 01:02:07 PM

@MK1
Thanks for the info about dead spots. I'm beginning to think a DMM alone is useless for testing the output of these high voltage JT. I get weird reading as well. Like when I add a cap to the output the measured voltage goes up anywhere from 10%-100% depending on the circuit used.

@All
Soon, I'm going to send a JT into the air at night on an Electric RC Airplane I'm building. I want to add lots of lights, so a high voltage JT circuit will be perfect and won't drain my main engine battery since I'll use a seperate battery for the JT. I've got the fuselage finished. I just need to add the LEDs, JT, Servos, Motor, Speed Control, Reciever and Batteries. Wow, I've got a lot of work to do ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 26, 2009, 01:05:15 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on April 26, 2009, 11:47:20 AM
I have been replicating the mk1 high voltage, on other toroid , now i am really confused , my meter show below 200 v then it goes over , i change the setting to 1000v now its showing me 800 v, but if i go back to the 200 v setting it show under 200v
so i get readings in both ranges , my meter is not helping much on this , i scope would be better .
But my new toroid are good but strange readings .

i suspect that the resistance of your voltmeter is changing the impedance of the coil enough to change the frequency.
the resistance is lower on a 200v range then on the 1000v range.

@Artic_Knight
i can't make your circuit to start oscilating.
are you getting anything else then the battery's voltage ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on April 26, 2009, 01:33:42 PM

@NOP

which curcuit the one with the coils only? i havent tested that out yet and dont know if it will osciliate i would think that it would but thats not a sure thing. if you want you could try this also. isolate a coil and add a cap to it. if they are set up like the JT so that one creates a magnetic field that opposes the other (one coil wired backwards or using a flow of electricity opposite of the battery) it should oscilate then.

once the current on one coil reaches the potential of the current in the other coil but in a opposing field they should cancel out creating our oscilating effect.

sorry, right now im more focused on a couple side projects that utilize high frequency dc and havent spent as much time with the JT. what i really need is a osciliscope. i may have to rent one for a day or something :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 26, 2009, 01:47:47 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on April 26, 2009, 11:50:22 AM
the picture i post here has the battery and probe info i was hoping for.
...

my objective is to find the simplest purest and best performing oscilator then from there build up on it to power what ever be the case and hopefully being mindful of these objectives come to a better version of the joule thief :)

thanks

You know I still struggle with circuit diagrams. (I am improving with all the practice. ;) )
Still, I think the battery is upside down to the aspect of the rest of the circuit.
The tap of the toroid windings which I believe is what you have drawn into the neg side of the battery is supposed to go into the positive.

Plus add to it all that good information from xee2 on the value of high resistance to increase the oscillations of the jtc.
I refer to this because it has been MY experience that the higher the resistance the higher the frequency.
I went as high as 50K ohm. I think that is high enough to show the tendency.

In any case, I could stick a probe on a jt, but I would not be showing the circuit you have unless I change it around...

I first want to look at the frequency changes xee2 suggested in his explanation of jtc oscillation, where the collector coil can have more turns than the base coil to give higher frequency.

Anyway, If you can clarify, I may be able to help.

jeanna

@All,
Go to the health food store.
Get some teatree oil and some eucalyptus oil.
Put 1-3 drops of each onto a cloth hankerchief.
Breathe into this and keep the hankerchief tucked into your collar.

You will be safe.
No coughed virus can make it past this barrier, and if you do get a touch of it, you will build up immunity better than any other way.
Hopefully, you have had some kind of flu in the past 2 or 3 years, because this will offer better real protection than any vaccine- esp. the kind they give out now with killed bits of virus DNA.
THAT Emperor is wearing no clothes, my friends.
(I studied biology oh so long ago, and immunology was the field I worked in.. I am not a modern expert, but I do know that nature provides the best cure - always.)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 26, 2009, 01:58:00 PM

Quote from: Thaelin on April 26, 2009, 11:58:51 AM
Hi all:
Just wanted to share my last bit of fun. I made a jt out of a large metal washer. It worked ok
but what was funny was the scope output wave. It has two distinct waves with one superimposed
over the other one. Like haveing the on and off pulses of the transistor riding on an AC signal. Very
strange. Funny to see it. Other than that, nothing to boast about for output wise.

thaelin

Every once in a while I get a thing like that too. Do you have more specific information you could provide with this?
I was planning to return to the toroid that gives me this appearance of a double wave, but I didn't know what it meant.
People here suggested an interference pattern, but I am not sure.
Maybe it does mean something?

However, we need all the info right down to the
battery, and transistor, base resistor value, and how many turns, and maybe the kind of washer... OK?

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on April 26, 2009, 01:58:09 PM

yea i wont swear that i have the orientation of the parts 100% accurate. it was a quick draw. one thing i have noticed tho is you can reverse the battery and it will work however youll have to change some of the electronic setup to produce the same results using the opposite current. in reality i think its probobly about the best thing but i am not satisfied with the transistor leakage, it may be miniscuel but its still leakage!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Thaelin on April 26, 2009, 02:12:54 PM

Hazens:
That is going to be one super flyer. You will be the envy of them all. I bet you are going to
start a fad that will sweep the world. People have not done such as it does drain the batts. In
gas run, the batts are small and run the controls so many will not put extra things on them.

Let the fun begin. Me and a friend did a powered hang glider years ago. Should have seen the
looks at the park when it came flying over them. Wing span was just over 3 feet.

;D ;D

thaelin

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 26, 2009, 02:14:02 PM

@ hazens1

Quote from: hazens1 on April 26, 2009, 01:02:07 PM
I'm beginning to think a DMM alone is useless for testing the output of these high voltage JT. I get weird reading as well. Like when I add a cap to the output the measured voltage goes up anywhere from 10%-100% depending on the circuit used.

Nice toys. The DMM will only give accurate readings using the AC input if the the voltage being measured is a perfect sine wave. When you use a diode and capacitor, the capacitor will charge up to the peak voltage. The DC reading across the capacitor will always be more than the DMM AC reading since the DMM reads RMS voltage when set for AC input.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 26, 2009, 02:25:08 PM

@ Artic_Knight

There are a number of videos on utube that show scope shots of JT outputs. I have watched them but I do not have a list of them. You might try looking there under Jule thief and Joule thief.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 26, 2009, 03:05:03 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on April 26, 2009, 01:58:09 PM

... i am not satisfied with the transistor leakage, it may be miniscuel but its still leakage!

I agree with you, and
It is not miniscule.
If I leave my battery hooked to my toroid over night, it drains the battery down and I need to charge the battery.

It is only miniscule if you are using it to power all the lights in your house!

I will be using an EB this summer and getting my lights to work off the earth. (still a transistor, though)
Later I am looking into the mag-amps. So, if you are wanting to make oscillation happen without a transistor, look into the mag-amps.
This is a real thing. The company Butler winding makes these for people.

I will look at a plain jt toroid for you. just the toroid on a battery.
I think you are wanting to see if the wires configuration is making an oscillation.
I will look to see and let you know.

Now, I want to know too. It is similar to what N Stubblefield did, except his was so much more complicated with its internal battery starting system. I will be reexamining his/my NS generators with my scope soon. I want no rain when I am out there!!

jeanna

EDIT:
Nope. Nothing.
I even tried every connection possible and I also put in 2 taps from 2 toroids into each polarity and connected one wire from each and the free wire still showed no oscillation. It was certainly running around the coils back and forth a lot, but not giving an oscillation output. Just a straight run reading.
sorry. :'(

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 26, 2009, 04:26:28 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 26, 2009, 01:47:47 PM
I first want to look at the frequency changes xee2 suggested in his explanation of jtc oscillation, where the collector coil can have more turns than the base coil to give higher frequency.

it will probably change the frequency, but not make it higher.
i might be wrong tho, i have no way to verify that.

but what i can say is that it will give you more amps at the pickup coil.

about the magamps.
there are specific ways of working with them, and limitations you will have to work around, that you might not be aware of.
ex: there is always a leakage at off time, that is greater then with a transistor.
you must energize the control coil before the signal input in most cases.
signal input must be AC or pulsed DC.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 26, 2009, 04:46:35 PM

Quote from: xee2 on April 25, 2009, 08:08:01 PM

So frequency depends on the base resistor value and the collector coil inductance.

@xee2,
This is about collector coil inductance

I just made a test I already did before, but I made it again with the scope measuring frequency. I checked a bunch of things.
The base resistor did not change. It remains at 220 ohm.
I am looking at the effect that the base/collector turns have on the system.

I used the widow (black widow = black and red with red magwire ;) in case you were wondering)
The widow has 5T,8T,40T

I first made the 5T into the collector coil and the 8T wire into the base coil. Then I read off the 40T secondary to get the oscillation frequency and voltage-out through the secondary.
222KHz
52V
220 ohm base resistor

then I reversed them so the 8T became the collector coil, and 5T the base coil.
125KHz
57V
220 ohm base resistor

===
I added this widow to a second tier and read the secondary of the second tier. I wired it up like that drawing from yesterday.

back to 8T in base
200KHz
36V
reversed the widow's secondary wires input to the second tier cuz there is a difference in light output
181KHz
45V

Now with 5T in the base of the widow on the first tier, and reading the secondary wires of the second tier
200KHz
20V

reverse the wire input to the second tier
105KHz
25V

I hope this makes sense in light of your theory, or will add information necessary to augment it.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 26, 2009, 05:05:59 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 26, 2009, 04:46:35 PM
I hope this makes sense in light of your theory, or will add information necessary to augment it.

thanks for the confirmation jeanna.
yes, you have demonstrate that that theory is true.

since the transistor is conducting for a longer period of time, it is normal that the frequency drop lower.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 26, 2009, 05:23:16 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on April 26, 2009, 04:46:35 PM
I first made the 5T into the collector coil and the 8T wire into the base coil. Then I read off the 40T secondary to get the oscillation frequency and voltage-out through the secondary.
222KHz
52V
220 ohm base resistor

then I reversed them so the 8T became the collector coil, and 5T the base coil.
125KHz
57V
220 ohm base resistor

Thanks for testing. This seems like an important test to do. Your results seem to match my theory. Increasing the turns on the base coil will increase the frequency and decreasing the turns on the base coil will increase the power produced by the pickup coil. Good work. You seem to be getting better at using your scope also.

Also, as you showed with your previous tests, increasing base resistor value increases frequency and decreasing base resistor value decreases frequency.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 26, 2009, 07:30:00 PM

Well how nice,

I am glad this test helped. I am also glad you were there to interpret it!

This is a picture of one of those 2 tiered scopeshots.
You cannot see the details but you can see the quality of the wave.
On the left border there is a short blank area. just above this you may be able to see a little dot. That is the x axis. So, it is a very little low.
It seems that this is one benefit of the 2 tiers.
I can barely remember what I was thinking I would do with the 2 tiers. Whatever it was, I don't think it worked, but something else has come of it.
thank you for your help,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 26, 2009, 07:58:43 PM

@ jeanna

You seem to be pretty good with computers. Is there a way to send the scope screen to the computer? Most digital scopes have this feature. That would make it easier to post better scope shots.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 26, 2009, 08:14:06 PM

Ah, that is a different model scope. I need to get out the xo laptop and see. Those pics it took were so terrific. But the glare is so deep, maybe not. Oh well.
:)

Here is a drawing of a new connection I discovered today. The lights are very bright and yet the volts dropped to 17 from around 40. It is the frequency that went up. This time it is 285KHz. The wave looks nice like the last one too.

Remember,
only 1 transistor 2N3904
Base 220 ohm
on first tier with the Widow.

Second tier has only MK .8 wires and lights

...
removed some extra text - no good idea
.....

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 26, 2009, 08:43:17 PM

@jeanna

There might be a software for your scope, so you could see the readings on the computer screen, that would be really helpful
you could then take screen shot of the wave.

I can make some research for you, what is the scope model.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 26, 2009, 08:50:54 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on April 26, 2009, 08:14:06 PM
the volts dropped to 17 from around 40.

I would guess that somehow you have made the equivalent of a step down transformer. In a transformer, if the voltage is stepped down then the current is increased. The LEDs are probably getting brighter because they are being driven with more current.

Having more voltage than the LED can use does not make it brighter. This is why LEDs can be added in series without decreasing the brightness of the other LEDs (since the extra voltage is just being wasted if there are not enough LEDs to use it). In parallel all of the current is divided between all of the LEDs. Thus adding an LED in parallel will decrease the brightness of the other LEDs. At 40 volts, you seem to be providing more voltage to the LEDs than they can use. By converting some of that voltage to current you made extra current that the the LEDs could use and thus they got brighter.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 26, 2009, 08:57:07 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on April 26, 2009, 08:43:17 PM
@jeanna

There might be a software for your scope, so you could see the readings on the computer screen, that would be really helpful
you could then take screen shot of the wave.

I can make some research for you, what is the scope model.

Mark

@Mark,
Thanks.

Velleman HPS10
It has to be LINUX software, remember.
I don't think there is a way to get it into a computer. There is a scsi type connector and an IR port on the other model which is HPS40, but not this one. Also, the manual is written for both, so be sure you are following the info for the -10.

I will open up the xo laptop and see if it can take a better pic.. I am just being lazy. Got to clear a space first!

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 26, 2009, 10:20:23 PM

@jeanna

It seems there are none for the HPS10 , i will keep searching. But it doesn't look good , the hps40 would but its a bit to late for that one.

Mark

But make some picture from a greater distance , i will blow it up for you, the pictures are not clear because you don't have a macro on the camera , but if the picture is taken in good light condition , it will be easy to blow the picture and keep the details.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 26, 2009, 10:45:38 PM

@Mark,Thank you for all these good offers.

I did find a spot with good light without glare one day. I didn't bother today. A good tripod would be just the thing. The 2 dollar one doesn't help very much, a little but. I just thought you would enjoy seeing the wave which is what you can see from that pic.

I can hardly see the screen with my eyes. It is dark and there is glare.

Oh well, for $189 I have learned about frequency and its relationship to volts and maybe its relationship to amps in an ac environment.

That is worth the $189, to me. It is too bad that I cannot share it with you all.

And I will be able to take this scope outside to the ground where the Stubblefield generators will be planted.
Maybe I am the only one who will be able to do that.

Thank you again,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 26, 2009, 11:09:46 PM

Quote from: xee2 on April 26, 2009, 08:50:54 PM
@ jeanna

I would guess that somehow you have made the equivalent of a step down transformer.

Hi xee2,

This may be what it is.
Right now the battery is below 1.1v
It now gives me 7 volts and lights all the lights but not as well.

I think I will recharge and start again before I add too many extra thoughts.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 26, 2009, 11:16:39 PM

@all

I have been working on a mk1 hybrid , with the micro tpu self runnig circuit, and i got a led to stay on for 3 minutes and 55 second, without battery , ok its not really bright , but i just took any cap a had laying around and a 100 k pot, so i put the battery on it for a 1 second and the led say on for over 3 minute , but not flashing , constant on time.

this is still worth work on it.

I have posted the circuit a few pages back. There it is again http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1815461677597553845

Marc

@ hazens1

Try your jt on a button cell i should work , and saving weight for the plane.I can light neons with a lr44 button.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 26, 2009, 11:41:38 PM

@ jeanna

I posted this on page 220 but I have re-posted it here since I thought you might find it interesting. It shows the same relationship between base resistor value and frequency that your experiments showed. So I think the two experiments confirm each other.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 27, 2009, 12:33:22 AM

@xee2,
I do remember that.
Thanks for re posting it here.
In this, you have only used a bjt and you have also shown the same reciprocal frequency to voltage effect by varying the base resistor.

When you measure the voltage as you have drawn it, do you use the legs of the cap for placement of the probes?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 27, 2009, 01:35:48 AM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on April 27, 2009, 12:33:22 AM
When you measure the voltage as you have drawn it, do you use the legs of the cap for placement of the probes?

Yes. The voltmeter and ampmeter were permanently attached as shown during the testing. Frequency was measured by holding probe near collector coil and using capacitive coupling through the air to the probe tip with ground clip to negative of battery. The frequency counter would not have been able to handle 100 volt input pulses.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 27, 2009, 02:23:51 AM

One day, I'll post some new material here..but lately I've been sick. And there are finals, and things will be busy until May 10th or so...

Has there been any momentum on the electronic switching idea for the Bedini?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 27, 2009, 04:25:35 AM

@jadaro

I hope you will get well soon !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 27, 2009, 09:23:53 AM

@ Jadaro,
Sorry to hear you are not well. :(

Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 27, 2009, 09:55:47 AM

@Jeanna,
Heres my anti flu stuff (I read your receipi a few pages back) now I have something to fall back on if the 1st one dosent work, ha ha.

Thursday Plantation Tea Tree Oil (I have been to the factory 6-7 times)
Goanna Eucalytus Oil, (nope I havent been there) ;)

Goanna Salve (carnt buy it any more)
Kokoda Insect Repellent (same agin)

and I threw in a photo of some bugs, pritty ones that I saw last week in the prickley tree, I'm not a Bottinist so I carnt tell you it's name, but it sure does prickle.

@All
Today I have unsoldered a number of printed circuit boards, for their parts, and stripped the large copper wires off all my big torids.
Got more of the same to do tomorrow.
The temperature is falling here now, the snowy mountains had a half a meter of snow overnight, the cold weather will arrive tomorrow.
More snow due to fall down south in the next two days.

@Bill,
I found my multimeter which I thought I had lost, it was outside on one of my spare 1.2v Nicad 300amp hr batteries, I simply forgot where I had put it.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dog812 on April 27, 2009, 10:23:59 AM

Anyone tried putting the secondary under..?
It works pretty good.. but i cant get it to work with a resistor..in this pic i am using a pot.. but i have it maxed out in order for it to work.
6-6 over the 30 turn secondary.
http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=PqnlDQr

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 27, 2009, 12:29:24 PM

@ dog812

Interesting test. I would think that it would work OK but it doesn't. That is the value of experimentation. Some people say that coils work better when they are tight against the ferrite, but I have made many coils with turns not tight (like your white wires) and they worked. I never did any tests to see if they worked better when tight. However, I do think that the way you have made it may be reducing the coupling between the collector coil and the base coil, since both of them are probably more tightly coupled to the secondary than to each other the way you have made it. I do not know why that would make using a resistor a problem though. I would think that it would make it necessayr to use a larger resistor. Which is another example of why testing is the only way to tell if it will work.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 27, 2009, 12:50:01 PM

@Dog812

I tried and got better result when all coils are starting and ending at the same spot on the toroid, you really should try.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on April 27, 2009, 03:38:01 PM

Quote from: dog812 on April 27, 2009, 10:23:59 AM
Anyone tried putting the secondary under..?
It works pretty good.. but i cant get it to work with a resistor..in this pic i am using a pot.. but i have it maxed out in order for it to work.
6-6 over the 30 turn secondary.
http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=PqnlDQr

Dog

I have tried putting the secondary under the JT windings ... I have not had much luck with it so far .
IN theory it should work great there ....... it should be in position to catch more of the flux .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on April 27, 2009, 03:39:17 PM

Duplicate post deleted

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 27, 2009, 03:47:45 PM

Quote from: dog812 on April 27, 2009, 10:23:59 AM
Anyone tried putting the secondary under..?
It works pretty good.. but i cant get it to work with a resistor..in this pic i am using a pot.. but i have it maxed out in order for it to work.
6-6 over the 30 turn secondary.
http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=PqnlDQr

Hi Dog812,

By maxed out do you mean zero ohms.

This is very interesting, esp. in light of how N Tesla insists that he gets better results with the secondary inside.

I wonder if there is any sparking happening in the coil reducing its strength. I read how NT had to bury his thin wire in oil to prevent gratuitous sparking that reduce the effect he was looking for.

OIL no good on Hula Hoops. yuck.

This is reminding me of a toroid or 2 that I consider unreliable because sometimes the results are good and sometimes terrible and the only thing that changed was a breeze in the room. I wonder. The sparks can be too small to see. Especially at high frequencies.

Maybe that is another hula hoop product.
Sparks as the hoop turns. That would look really cool.

In the book about/by Tesla that I am reading he says this is the reason he prefers secondary wire to be covered by gutta percha. This is latex rubber and withstands a lot before breaking down and permitting a spark.
(I wonder if Kynar is aluminum covered with gutta percha? same rubbery feeling hmm)

@xee2, Is the sparking the same thing as the capacitive coupling you EE educated guys talk about?

@MK1,
I have also tried winding all wires to the same place and it does seem to help. I am not ready to say it is necessary, but I am ready to say always try it before giving up on an idea, because it may make the difference.

==
quote from the book:
p.217
" In trials of this kind* the experimenter arrives at the
startling conclusion that, to pass ordinary luminous discharges
through gases, no particular degree of exhaustion is needed, but
that the gas may be at ordinary or even greater pressure. To
accomplish this, a very high frequency is essential ; a high po-
tential is likewise required, but this is merely an incidental neces-
sity."
*He is making high frequency sparks pass through a wire. The wire or the entire space between 2 wires or the wires themselves etc. become illuminated.

from the link MK1 provided the other day to scribd.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/13040608/The-Researches-of-Nikola-Tesla-1894 (http://www.scribd.com/doc/13040608/The-Researches-of-Nikola-Tesla-1894)

very interesting lecture.
=====

good pic, btw.
thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 27, 2009, 03:55:31 PM

@all

On a bifilar jt , the pickup coil needs to be starting and ending at the same location , if the pickup coil goes over the end or start of the pulsing coils it usually doesn't work.

Mark

Edit slayer007 had the same problem at first.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 27, 2009, 04:45:26 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on April 27, 2009, 03:47:45 PM
He is making high frequency sparks pass through a wire. The wire or the entire space between 2 wires or the wires themselves etc. become illuminated.

I think this is referring to things like neon tubes. If you look at the electrodes in a neon bulb they seem to be glowing. But actually it is the ionizing gas at the surface that is glowing. In a long neon tube, the gas between the electrodes glows. But this takes a very high voltage.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 27, 2009, 04:49:56 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 27, 2009, 03:47:45 PM
@xee2, Is the sparking the same thing as the capacitive coupling you EE educated guys talk about?

no
the sparkes occure when the voltage(potential) between 2 wires is greater then what the dielectric can support.
the potential difference ionise the dielectric to the point it start acting like a conductor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 27, 2009, 05:12:03 PM

It is quite common to put the primary over the secondary. It is the way most auto ignition coils are made. So I do not understand why it would be a problem in a JT. The following drawing is from http://www.familycar.com/CLASSROOM/ignition.htm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 27, 2009, 05:29:32 PM

This site is doing a funny thing today. I just returned after having given up and I find that my post was indeed accepted. crazy.

So, after a long delay,

@MK1, Good clarification. thanks.

@xee2, It may have turned into neon tubes but during that lecture to the London EE's I quoted the words he used to introduce a demonstration of several examples of wires vibrating at high frequency which passed very small sparks evenly across the space between them through the open air. He even used a single strand in a way to glow with sparks.

The point of my question was that perhaps this tiny sparking is occurring across the air around the toroid whose overlaying primary is creating the very high frequency. Perhaps when the secondary is so close to the toroid this is made a worse problem.

Hazens has not complained about this and his magwire has a thicker coating than the RS magwire, I believe.

Anyway, Dog812, I am only saying it may NOT be worse. It may actually be more successful, but in being more successful, it may have a sparking problem coming along unexpectedly.

And
Thank you theNOP and xee2. I now know this is not what capacitive coupling means.

thanks all,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 27, 2009, 05:52:36 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 27, 2009, 05:29:32 PM
...but during that lecture to the London EE's I quoted the words he used to introduce a demonstration of several examples of wires vibrating at high frequency which passed very small sparks evenly across the space between them through the open air. He even used a single strand in a way to glow with sparks.

corona discharges.

Quote from: jeanna on April 27, 2009, 05:29:32 PM
The point of my question was that perhaps this tiny sparking is occurring across the air around the toroid whose overlaying primary is creating the very high frequency. Perhaps when the secondary is so close to the toroid this is made a worse problem.

Hazens has not complained about this and his magwire has a thicker coating than the RS magwire, I believe.

Anyway, Dog812, I am only saying it may NOT be worse. It may actually be more successful, but in being more successful, it may have a sparking problem coming along unexpectedly.

i can't really say why some are experiencing problems making their toroid that way.
but i don't think corona discharges are at play with the jt.

it is known that mag fields have greater pressure inside then outside a coil.

if this can prouve it to all. ;)
Tesla is specific about that when he talk about his pancake coil.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 27, 2009, 07:07:42 PM

There is a distinction made by NT between low frequency (high voltage) coronal discharges and those of high frequency.

the difference and what that portion of his lecture was about, is that with high frequency and somewhere he includes 10k hz as high enough, the discharge is very even and produces not streamers and individually identifiable sparks, but what appears to the human eye as a steady smooth brightness. He admits this is because the frequency is faster than the human eye can percieve it, but the point he is making in his lecture is that at high frequency high voltage sparks look like a smooth light at ordinary pressures and of ordinary air.

(!)

He even admits that in cases of even higher frequency, the sparks are so short they are invisible... but then he shows that they are still there.

Anyway, Dog812, do not give up. You may have found something too problematic to use with your HH's. But it may be great for something else.

This is the reason everybody should be sharing about their joule thief trials, even if something isn't working as wanted.
We all benefit by the discussion.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 27, 2009, 07:49:46 PM

@jeanna
corona discharges and spark gap discharges.

the first is high voltage and is not really affected by frequencies.

the other is, and can occure at relatively low voltage, a few hundred volts, depending of the gap size and the dielectric inbetween.

most enameled wire are rated for at least 7k volts, but there are lower grades too.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 27, 2009, 08:17:23 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on April 27, 2009, 07:49:46 PM
..

depending of the gap size and the dielectric inbetween.

The gap size is very small on a closely wrapped secondary and the dielectric is air.

Quote
most enameled wire are rated for at least 7k volts, but there are lower grades too.

Maybe it is a language thing. Nevermind.

It is also very very easy to make a small scratch in the thin varnish esp on the green or red varnish from the 26 or 30 gauge available from RS. A scratch even if it doesn't go through could allow a tiny and invisible discharge that would confound dog's results.

It isn't as though he is doing something really different here. He is just putting the secondary inside the primary. I am explaining how it could be possible to have a worse looking result by reversing the secondary position to on the toroid. As xee2 explained this is commonly done, so should be fine.
I have 2 toroids like that. Only not all the time. Just when the wires are a little too close to something... or each other. I can't see what, but I cannot trust those toroids and don't use them for most tests. They should be MORE powerful, but they are less powerful.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dog812 on April 27, 2009, 08:30:32 PM

When i said i had my pot maxed out.. i meant it was at 0 ohms.. sorry to be confusing..
I just tried it with a 68 phm resistor and it works. So maybe the 1k is just too big.. Ill keep popping in different ohm resistors till i find the highest one that works..

The main reason i put the secondary under the primary is due to space.. and a lack of it.. I am limited to a certain size due to my application.

Also when someone said i want the wires to be in the same location? What does that mean exactly?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dog812 on April 27, 2009, 08:31:11 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on April 27, 2009, 03:55:31 PM

On a bifilar jt , the pickup coil needs to be starting and ending at the same location , if the pickup coil goes over the end

What does this mean??

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 27, 2009, 08:59:20 PM

I think this just means you must not have the secondary/pickup wire on top of (or under) the place where the primary wires begin their turns - or end their turns. I think the primary 's job is to make the oscillations happen, and then since the secondary is actually oscillating, the secondary oscillations could negate the primary ones if they meet at the all important turning point of the primary coils.

Does this make sense?

I am glad to hear the resistors work.
I think it is your pot. I have one that cuts off the circuit when it gets to a max spot.
Maybe you have one like that too.

A bunch of us have been able to take the resistance very high. I went to 50K and xee2 took his to 500k.

The frequency just gets higher and higher with more ohms in the base resistor. (well we have not found a limit yet.)

Great stuff dog812,

thanks for describing your work.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 27, 2009, 09:59:26 PM

@Xee2
Your post is very timely indeed, last night I completed removing the copper wires off the torrids, what a job that was, I have strained my right arm, the wires were around 2mm to 2.2mm diameter (thats right, built for amps). Story and picks below.

Quote from: xee2 on April 27, 2009, 12:29:24 PM
@ dog812
Interesting test. I would think that it would work OK but it doesn't. That is the value of experimentation. Some people say that coils work better when they are tight against the ferrite, but I have made many coils with turns not tight (like your white wires) and they worked. I never did any tests to see if they worked better when tight. However, I do think that the way you have made it may be reducing the coupling between the collector coil and the base coil, since both of them are probably more tightly coupled to the secondary than to each other the way you have made it. I do not know why that would make using a resistor a problem though. I would think that it would make it necessayr to use a larger resistor. Which is another example of why testing is the only way to tell if it will work.

As I mentioned above, I removed the wires, I was left with a torid which has a white plastic shell covering the torid itself.
I pulled off the covers and could see there is no way that the previous windings could be in touch or be as closely wound a plastic encased torid as is in other cases.

There must be a reason for this, but I dont know at the moment, I have to phone up a fello (electrical design engineer) who is very high up in the power supply mob in Toowoomba in a couple of minutes about another torid question and I willl ask him what is going on here.

Enjoy the photos.
jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 27, 2009, 10:20:15 PM

@all

I hope this will make sense .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 27, 2009, 10:55:23 PM

@ All:

Great work folks!

Just a note. Stefan said on another topic that he will be switching to another software and server tomorrow. This is good news. He also said that the site may be down for about 24 hours. (the bad news) but, when back up and running, it will be a lot better. I just wanted to pass this on.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 28, 2009, 05:44:52 AM

@Bill,
Thats good news Bill, hope Stefan has a better run with this new server.
Now I'm back to unsoldering some dumped crt boards, but some news from me here.

@all,
I went to the local dump yesterday an picked up a solar pannel, a big one. ;D
Its got a hole in it, about 1" by 2", anyway, I took it home, cleaned it up, the glass panel is broken, like a cars windscreen, tiny bits of broken glass everywhere, the solar cells are even bulging at the ground level, I'm not even going to entertain the thought of strightening it, as they will snap for sure.

Its got a proper voltage blocking system consisting of 6 heavy duty diodes, I hooked this panel up to a flatt car battery and it charged this battery up with about 8 hours of sunlight.

0631 = full solar pannel
0632 = hole in pannel, sorry about the quality of the pics, low sunlight.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dog812 on April 28, 2009, 10:10:06 AM

Well I tested a bunch of resistors last night..
from 2.2k down to 47 Ohm.
The JT would not work from 2.2 K - 100 ohm.. but would work with 68 ohm and under. sadly i dont have any resistors between 100 - 68..
But still is wierd why it would only work with such a small resistor..
I am glad it works though.. makes it so much easier to wind with such a small torrid.

How come i cant get any readings from the secondary? Is this normal?

So all i have been doing is testing my battery, to see how fast it drains.
Testing the over / under JT.:
68 ohm w/ 3 LED's

5:38 pm Monday.
battery at 1.37V

10:24pm
battery at 1.25v

7:00 a.m Tuesday.
battery at 0.85V

Not very efficient. But the LED's are super bright !!!!
http://i40.tinypic.com/10clq1k.jpg

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 28, 2009, 10:29:14 AM

@Dog812,
Nice big pic of your torid coil setup.

Don't worry too much about the resister being so low, my setup will light with a 50 ohm resistor, then it stops working.
I can also get the JT working all the way up to a 2,000 ohm resistor, and it stops there also, so there is this intermediate range where it will operate.

We have the lower and the upper limites, but as every torid and windings are different, there is no actual set in stone measurement.
You will have to find out what is best for your particular setup.

hooroo

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 28, 2009, 12:35:39 PM

@dog812

Did you test your secondary with a led or a diode bridge, because sometime it the only way to see it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 28, 2009, 01:36:08 PM

Jim:

Man that panel is a great find!!!! There is not telling what people will toss out these days. That panel is made up of many cells (as I know you know) and it looks to me like 90% are just fine. Heck, if it is charging your battery as it is I would just leave it that way. That is a good sized panel. A few more like that and it's off the grid for you mate. My question is....what will someone down there throw out next?

Today, I am picking up a magnesium block I ordered from a local company yesterday. It is 5 pounds!!! I will use that with my carbon rods in the earth battery to see what I can light up using the JT technology. The mA's output should be decent if I have it figured correctly. We will see what happens.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on April 28, 2009, 05:39:42 PM

@Mk1

Here is the Mk x2 (I think) that I have made the gauge for the JT windings are 22mag and the primary and secondary are 24 from an old component I took apart. Now that I know it works as you stated I take off the 24 and use 30mag. I'm assuming that this is what will give me more voltage! Do you have any advice to make it better other then what I will be doing to it?

1 inch toroid goldmine

Wire as seen above
JT windings 3-3 on each side
Primary & Secondary windings 14 each and on each side

Rectifiers are 1000v @ 1 amp

5K POT

2N3055 power transistor

P.S. I love how it will light leds regardless of the polarity! Does this mean it self adjusts its waveform to the load being used?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on April 28, 2009, 06:01:37 PM

@Mk1

It's funny I just readjusted the wiring and now I'm getting 150+ recitified DC Volts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 28, 2009, 06:02:57 PM

@stprue

Nice work!

Ok first depending on the toroid the turns on the jt side could be better with only 2 turns per coil per sides, leaving more room for the pickup coils , you should test it before changing the pickup coils.

Then try to fit as many turns of 30 gauge going on way make it tight , after that going back down try fitting the turns between
the turns of the first layer , this will make sure you are getting as much on it as you can, you theoretically should have as many turns going down. Also it will make it nice and tight, the wires will cross on the inside of the toroid, not on the sides.

Keep it up , also check the value the pot is set on , data reference .

Mark

edit

The bread board is not to good with wires that are smaller then 22 gauge i usually solder some 22 on the end so it doesn't have connection issue when using the board.

150 real nice , turn the pot really slowly it may get you more !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on April 28, 2009, 06:18:25 PM

@Mk1

Thanks for the compliment and thanks for the advice, I will try the JT with 2 turns. How many turns with 30 gauge do you think I could get with a 1 inch toroid?

I'm planing on buying some 3.38 inch (or close to it) torrids from all electronics soon. That will make for some interesting experiments.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on April 28, 2009, 06:23:01 PM

@Mk1

I forgot to ask you, I have realized the you can make a single crossover or a double when re-winding bak down. How are yours done because the one you see in the pic's I just put up has both a single on one side and a double on the other. I ask because even though it can light an led on either side, one of the side is pretty dim. Do you know what's happening?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 28, 2009, 06:44:18 PM

@stprue

its hard to say how many you should be able to put on , but you could very well have over 70 turns , i usually have a single cross over .

also i suggest putting both side on first going one way that will make sure you have the same number on each side, only the go down.

Edit its about 80 inch of wire on each side.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 28, 2009, 08:17:24 PM

Hi everyone,
I guess the new server went on pretty easily? I just thought I would try and here we all are.

Dog812,
I think there is something hooked up wrong. I do not believe that you should have the effects you are having.
Just to be sure are you using all new parts?
I think there is something wrong. Lets try to work this out.

stprue,
Beautiful toroid.
MK1 is the expert here. You are in the right hands.

@All,
I made some tests today relating the number of turns frequency and volts. There is no surprise, but confirmation. more turns higher volts lower frequency.

I had to stop in the middle to recharge my scope batteries. I am looking for the right adapter... this is too often.

I gave you the results. Now, I am going to try to add the table I made and see if this forum format will accept it. So, if there is something weird below, just don't worry, I am playing. If it looks like a table then cool.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 28, 2009, 09:07:45 PM

@All,

As you can see the table is not from the forum table function. Oh well. The screen shot is easier anyway.

All these data mean to me that the next step for me is to get as many turns as possible to get the voltage as crazy high as possible then crank up the base resistor value to get the highest frequency possible and still maintain 110 or 170 volts.

I read in a search that 170 is the peak to peak we get in the states to give us a rms of 120 volts which is what the electric company claims we get, so this may be the reason my led string didn't light when I had 110 volts on a pick up.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dog812 on April 28, 2009, 09:08:06 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 28, 2009, 08:17:24 PM
Dog812,
I think there is something hooked up wrong. I do not believe that you should have the effects you are having.
Just to be sure are you using all new parts?
I think there is something wrong. Lets try to work this out.
jeanna

All new parts yes..
3904, 3/4" torrid, 30 mag wire for secondary, 22 awg white for the primary.. 68 ohm resistor.. 3 x 5mm white LED's
I made the torrid using gadagets method of a single wire , wrap 6 times, leave a inch excess, then wrap the last 6 times.With the inch excess being where you hoop the battery positive.

What could be wrong? And why do you think there is something wrong? Just how fast it is dieing?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 28, 2009, 09:10:02 PM

Quote from: stprue on April 28, 2009, 06:23:01 PM
@Mk1

I forgot to ask you, I have realized the you can make a single crossover or a double when re-winding bak down. How are yours done because the one you see in the pic's I just put up has both a single on one side and a double on the other. I ask because even though it can light an led on either side, one of the side is pretty dim. Do you know what's happening?

on one side you are changing the base's coil impedence.
on the other side you are changing the collecter's coil impedence.
since it is the base's coil that make the transistor oscillate it affect the frequency more then when you change the collecter's coil impedence.
but that is just the short explanation.

what is happening to the base coil is defined by Lenz's law.
a currents passing in a wire create a mag field that induce a currents in any near wires(or in a core).
that currents created by a mag field, if allowed to circulate, will create a mag field that will oppose the mag field creating that currents.

that is the reason i do not talk about coil's resistance but about coil's impedence.
both are a "resistance", but not the same kind of resistance.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 28, 2009, 09:18:58 PM

@Bill,
Thanks for those kind remarks about my "new" second hand solar pannel.
One month ago I saw a "snapper" rideon mower at the dump, it was ancient, but I had to leave it there, but I took the spark ign coil, he he.

The rest of it ended up being bulldozed and burnt.

I am lookoing forward to seeing what results you get from this 5Lb magnesium block, I think ship writes use these things on ships hulls, or is that zinc blocks? mabe someone here could let me know for shore.

@Jeanna,
Go crazy, thats the way lol, go for broke and try to squeeze out as many volts as you can.

@all,
I'm going to start to wind some turns on my huge steel ring I found last month, go to clear some space first, this needs a whole table top to it's self.
So the lounge room becomes the workshop for a little while, oooooh the joys of investigations of the JT. ha ha.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on April 28, 2009, 09:35:15 PM

@ stprue
if you change your base resistor, you can change which led(s) polarity lights up brighter or make them both light the same. i mentioned this back at the start of the thread but no one has really played with it yet. tuning the base R to get the led(s) to light to even brightness regardless of polarity will give the 'closest to sine' you can easily get without using a scope.

@ bill and jeanna
thank you both! you were both right. i just needed to go do some fishing and disc golfing and think about it. stephan can censor whatever he likes, seems he's starting to make a habit of it... ie: fuzzytomcat's post.

@ cap-z-ro
thanks for your support!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 28, 2009, 09:38:43 PM

@jeanna

Nice work !

My only concern is that you did the test with a fixed base resistor value , you would have benefited even more by finding the sweet spot on the resistor every time you change the turn count, yes there is the freq factor , but its not all .
This is why i always use a trim-pot.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 28, 2009, 09:48:52 PM

Quote from: dog812 on April 28, 2009, 09:08:06 PM
All new parts yes..
3904, 3/4" torrid, 30 mag wire for secondary, 22 awg white for the primary.. 68 ohm resistor.. 3 x 5mm white LED's
I made the torrid using gadagets method of a single wire , wrap 6 times, leave a inch excess, then wrap the last 6 times.With the inch excess being where you hoop the battery positive.

What could be wrong? And why do you think there is something wrong? Just how fast it is dieing?

....
....

Quotefrom 2.2k down to 47 Ohm.
The JT would not work from 2.2 K - 100 ohm.. but would work with 68 ohm and under. sadly i dont have any resistors between 100 - 68..
But still is wierd why it would only work with such a small resistor..

The reason I say there is a bad hook up is because there should not be any place where it stops working completely.
Not in the middle between working resistance and working resistance.
This is the base resistance you are talking about, right?
It is the only place where I have a resistor.

There have been too many times where while moving a resistor (or wire) in or out of the breadboard I dislodge something.
Then it doesn't work, but at another time, it works just fine.
It was just a connection.

Breadboards are easy but when you get flaky results always suspect the breadboard first.

So,

Please retry all the places where the base resistor made a no result.
This is not the opposite of a sweet spot. This means a connection problem to me.

That said, since you gave the details, you are at the hairy limit of the voltage that will run this from the secondary.

And, did I hear you say this is off the primary bifilar? You still aren't getting the secondary to work??

These 2 things are the reason I want to give you some attention tonight.
I think you should have this working from the secondary.
And there is a straighter line relationship between the components and the results.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 28, 2009, 09:57:08 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on April 28, 2009, 09:38:43 PM
@jeanna

Nice work !

My only concern is that you did the test with a fixed base resistor value , you would have benefited even more by finding the sweet spot on the resistor every time you change the turn count, yes there is the freq factor , but its not all .
This is why i always use a trim-pot.
Mark

I might have found a higher amount by doing that, but I would have missed the principle that I was checking.

I had a trimpot and I checked it at the beginning and it was my purpose NOT to make any change in anything except the number of turns,
This way, we know that the change in frequency and volts I saw came only from the number of turns.

(and maybe a little problem seeing the screen and maybe a little from the batteries starting to go flat.) but I think this relationship is pretty clear, now.

Now, we can all find the sweet spot for the toroids we have and push the limits on the volts then after they are way high, push the limits on the frequency.

Without nailing this down it would forever be a guess.

Thank you.
I am pretty happy it is all working out so clearly.

That lecture from our man Tesla has made a big difference for me.

thank you again and again,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on April 28, 2009, 09:59:44 PM

Great to see you back Wilby...hope just the fish were biting.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 28, 2009, 10:11:46 PM

Wilby:

Welcome back! Good decision. We are about to have a lot of fun here.

Jeanna:

Stefan just opened a topic telling us about the switch. It has not happened yet...very soon though. He said we will loose all of our PM's so we need to back them up. Check out his topic on this. Then, there will, sadly, be some downtime. (according to Stefan) But, after the switch, I think things will be a lot better.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dog812 on April 28, 2009, 10:17:01 PM

@jeanna

Sorry to be confusing..
what i was saying is it wouldnt work with any resistor above 68 ohm.. the next resistor value i have higher than 68 was a 100 ohm lieing around and it would not work in the base position. And every other resistor i tried above 68 Ohm's did not work.. 100, 180, 190, 1k, 2.2k....
Only my 47 and 68 ohm resistors worked...

Also.. i am lighting the 3 LED 's off the secondary.. .. they light up very bright.. but only for about 24 hours.. if that matters

I just cant get any readings on my multimeter off the secondary wires... it just reads 0.0

I was wondering if that was normal?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 28, 2009, 10:31:21 PM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on April 28, 2009, 09:35:15 PM
...
tuning the base R to get the led(s) to light to even brightness regardless of polarity will give the 'closest to sine' you can easily get without using a scope.

Wilby's back!!!

good.

I will give this a try. So, I put 2 leds into the bjt light place and adjust the base resistor til they look even. Yes?

This is probably the missing piece to make the wires going into the second tier on my 2 tier thing even. Right now, it makes a difference which one is where.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 28, 2009, 10:37:26 PM

Quote from: dog812 on April 28, 2009, 10:17:01 PM
@jeanna

Sorry to be confusing..
what i was saying is it wouldnt work with any resistor above 68 ohm.. the next resistor value i have higher than 68 was a 100 ohm lieing around and it would not work in the base position. And every other resistor i tried above 68 Ohm's did not work.. 100, 180, 190, 1k, 2.2k....
Only my 47 and 68 ohm resistors worked...

no that is not right.

Quote
Also.. i am lighting the 3 LED 's off the secondary.. .. they light up very bright.. but only for about 24 hours.. if that matters

That is about right.
The transistor takes a bunch and with the resistor anywhere below 1000 it will go that fast.

QuoteI just cant get any readings on my multimeter off the secondary wires... it just reads 0.0

I was wondering if that was normal?

that is normal. It is the reason I was pushed to buy the scope.

You must do the diode bridge and measure it better yet capture it in a capacitor before you will know.

It gets tedious, for someone like me, anyway. ;)

Have you taken the led out of the bjt light place?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 28, 2009, 10:39:58 PM

@ jeanna

While you are doing your testing perhaps you could check the effect on frequency of putting a capacitor across the base resistor. Just put a 0.1 mF (or whatever you have) across the base resistor while doing some other test and see if the frequency goes up or down. I would expect the frequency to be decreased by the addition of the capacitor. But I have never tested this.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 28, 2009, 10:52:44 PM

@jenna

Well , i don't really agree , yes its a good test , but finding the sweet spot would have most likely mean that the freq would be about the same on every number of turns tested, since the purpose is to find the right amount of turns for better results.
Now we know the lower freq give more but how many turns is the best we don't know from your test.

There are many variables , battery voltage , the core , the jt turns , and the freq , the way i did it show how many turns are better for a given core, ex between my mk1 with 8 jt turns that actually got the same voltage with any base resistor value (so the voltage was the same at different freq )and the one with 4 turns got 25 volts more .

Mark

Dog812, told you diode bridge !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 28, 2009, 11:41:20 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on April 28, 2009, 10:52:44 PM

Well , i don't really agree , yes its a good test , but finding the sweet spot would have most likely mean that the freq would be about the same on every number of turns tested

Ah, remember Mark, I am a scientist.- "Most likely" -doesn't work for me.
I need to find that out.
I don't enjoy driving things into the ground. I find it too boring to do exhaustive tests all the time, but I do need to experiment in an orderly way from time to time to be sure of what I am finding.

Quote
... since the purpose is to find the right amount of turns for better results.

Well, you know, I think the purpose is to find the best results for our purposes.
We all have the same general purpose, but we all have a different angle on it.

I think our purpose is to find the right amount of turns that will give us a high voltage along with a high frequency. And we all have ideas on doing that. We are working together adding to our understanding and ability to move forward and we can only do that when we understand what we have and what we are doing.

I personally appreciate everything everyone's work here.

QuoteNow we know the lower freq give more but how many turns is the best we don't know from your test.

True, but I wasn't asking that question yet.

What I am showing is that when the volts go up the frequency goes down and
when the volts go down the frequency goes up.
Yesterdays test showed that the base resistor value can change the frequency and therefore change the volts.
Today's test shows that the number of turns also changes the volts which in turn change the frequency.

Now,

There is something to work with here.

We need high volts and we also need high frequency.

No one in this last 100 years paid much attention to Tesla's discovery that frequency in some way is a substitute for amps. This is MY discovery that he made this discovery.
I am very interested in following up on this.

I got this lead directly from Tesla.
I have been looking for this lead since I first read George Trinkaus' book about 18 years ago.
I found what I needed with the greatest of ease 2 days ago. Basically I opened the pdf and went right to it. I must follow up on a thing as clearly guided by intuition as this was.

nuf said and.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 29, 2009, 12:09:35 AM

Quote from: dog812 on April 28, 2009, 10:17:01 PM

I just cant get any readings on my multimeter off the secondary wires... it just reads 0.0

Sometimes, I use the AC Volts on the dmm just to get an indication. This number is meaningless, but it does go up and down when it should.

Having the leds lighting will take the voltage reading down a lot more than they should, so remember to remove them when checking out the ac voltage.

So, for a quick check, this will help.

The thing I think you are trying to do is get more than 24 hours out of one battery charge. Is that right?

This is why it is important to get the base resistor value way up.

I think you told us, but please again, how many lights are you wanting in a H Hoop?
It really shouldn't matter because you will probably put them in parallel.

I am thinking if you can get the base resistance (=frequency) up to maybe 15K ohm and yet have enough voltage to run the set in parallel, the battery should run a looong time.
I thought the trouble with too high frequency might be blowing the lights.
But maybe it isn't.
Maybe it is just the voltage that blows them.

Since I am only now actually separating the 2 - frequency and volts, I never looked at this before. maybe It will be obvious soon.
Perhaps I ran the 30 leds from a lowish voltage jt secondary because I had a high frequency.

I lit 30 leds off two very different toroids not realizing this important distinction.

there is a picture of the 30 leds on from the MK1 which has over 30 volts. (maybe over 60 - I forget.)
The berry doesn't have high voltage (7 volts) , but it has pretty high frequency and it lit 29 leds in parallel for low amps use from the battery.

Wow, this is so interesting. And it is coming together.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 29, 2009, 12:21:24 AM

Quote from: dog812 on April 28, 2009, 10:17:01 PM
what i was saying is it wouldnt work with any resistor above 68 ohm.. the next resistor value i have higher than 68 was a 100 ohm lieing around and it would not work in the base position. And every other resistor i tried above 68 Ohm's did not work.. 100, 180, 190, 1k, 2.2k....
Only my 47 and 68 ohm resistors worked...

Also.. i am lighting the 3 LED 's off the secondary.. .. they light up very bright.. but only for about 24 hours.. if that matters

what is your pickup's number of turns ?
leds are in series or parallel ?

Quote from: jeanna on April 28, 2009, 11:41:20 PM
No one in this last 100 years paid much attention to Tesla's discovery that frequency in some way is a substitute for amps. This is MY discovery that he made this discovery.
I am very interested in following up on this.

where did you got that impression that not one payed attention to Tesla ?
you have study him, good, but have you study modern physic and/or electronic ?

frequency is not a substitute for amps.
frequency is use for transfering more amps in Tesla's coils since there are no core in them.
but there is also obstacles with higher frequencies and you have nailed one in your previous experiments.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 29, 2009, 12:24:51 AM

@jeanna

All i am saying is that at one point , the base resistor value will not change the pickup coil voltage anymore.
I said most likely because i don't have a scope. So how can you find the sweet spot if it doesn't change the output voltage. Also the sweet spot is the best freq for the core .

I have posted many times , the directions ,but most still prefers re doing the same mistakes i have done to get my knowledge.

Like i said with 8 jt turns on my toroid , the voltage output is the same with any resistor value 1 k or 1 ohm.

I am sorry i didn't bothered explaining all my mistakes.

I may not be a scientist , or even a ee , but i still got you and many in the right direction.

By the way my walk around for getting a higher freq without having a lower resistor value (x2) worked.

Actually , i must be a really lucky guy since everything works for me.

Also , i will have access to a scope soon , would someone tell me , when i check the freq , do i have to get down to one single wave , or just make sure it stops moving to get the good reading ?

Any how , i will take a break .

I have a real ou device to finish , Yes real !

Mark

I will be back in a few weeks!
good luck!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 29, 2009, 12:27:43 AM

@ All:

Here is a quick video of my standard JT circuit powered by my new and improved earth battery:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmsDvNDTz_w

No supercaps yet, nothing fancy, just a test to show it will light an ultrabright LED (28,000 MCD) I just grabbed one of my JT circuits that was handy and it has the ferrite bead instead of the toroid. 2N3904 Transistor and 1k resistor. This is just the start. It has been lit now for almost an hour. I hope to do many experiments with this new set-up. It should get better with time like the last EB but right now I am getting 1.8 vdc output. I have not been able to measure the mA's yet. I have to replace my fuse on my meter which I will do here in a bit. I just wanted to get this first video in the can.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on April 29, 2009, 12:27:52 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on April 28, 2009, 01:36:08 PM
Jim:

Man that panel is a great find!!!! There is not telling what people will toss out these days. That panel is made up of many cells (as I know you know) and it looks to me like 90% are just fine. Heck, if it is charging your battery as it is I would just leave it that way. That is a good sized panel. A few more like that and it's off the grid for you mate. My question is....what will someone down there throw out next?

Today, I am picking up a magnesium block I ordered from a local company yesterday. It is 5 pounds!!! I will use that with my carbon rods in the earth battery to see what I can light up using the JT technology. The mA's output should be decent if I have it figured correctly. We will see what happens.

Bill

Hi Bill . Man I have been busy .. Hey 5 Lb Block is Nice .. I thought of Something i have laying around . 4 of them . they are Magnesium Rims off an old Peugeot ! They must weight 30 pounds or so . i am going to bury them this week end ... Well i haven't caught up on the post yet but saw yours and i know you will have some Ma's . I am getting 15 ma's at 1.9 volts with just a 12 inch mag rod ... and one carbon welding rod 2 feet apart ..

@ all
I got BIG super caps for sale pretty cheap . they are normally 80 bucks . Maxwell 650farads at 2.7 volts 55 bucks .. HUGE and they shock you at 2.7 volts . ( i felt it ) these will run a Jt for Many many days or for that fact they run leds for days and days .. .

Gadgetmall

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 29, 2009, 12:28:45 AM

Quote from: TheNOP on April 29, 2009, 12:21:24 AM
frequency is not a substitute for amps.
frequency is use for transfering more amps in Tesla's coils since there are no core in them.
but there is also obstacles with higher frequencies and you have nailed one in your previous experiments.

page 236
"We may connect an insulated line to a source of such currents, we may pass an inappreciable current over the line, and on any point of the same we are able to obtain a heavy current, capable of fusing a thick copper wire." N Tesla

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on April 29, 2009, 12:41:18 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on April 29, 2009, 12:27:43 AM
@ All:

Here is a quick video of my standard JT circuit powered by my new and improved earth battery:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmsDvNDTz_w

No supercaps yet, nothing fancy, just a test to show it will light an ultrabright LED (28,000 MCD) I just grabbed one of my JT circuits that was handy and it has the ferrite bead instead of the toroid. 2N3904 Transistor and 1k resistor. This is just the start. It has been lit now for almost an hour. I hope to do many experiments with this new set-up. It should get better with time like the last EB but right now I am getting 1.8 vdc output. I have not been able to measure the mA's yet. I have to replace my fuse on my meter which I will do here in a bit. I just wanted to get this first video in the can.

Bill

nice vid! run walkway lights at night and use a cvs to switch to charging batteries during the day!

@jeanna
yup that's what i meant. you have a scope so let us know what you find out. all i have is a scope in multisim and these little circuits don't really like the sim, too hard to figure the q on a hand wound inductor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dog812 on April 29, 2009, 12:42:39 AM

Quote from: jeanna on April 29, 2009, 12:09:35 AM
This is why it is important to get the base resistor value way up.

I think you told us, but please again, how many lights are you wanting in a H Hoop?
It really shouldn't matter because you will probably put them in parallel.

I am thinking if you can get the base resistance (=frequency) up to maybe 15K ohm and yet have enough voltage to run the set in parallel, the battery should run a looong time.

I would like to light like 20 + in paralell.

What would i have to do to use such a hich resistor? More turns on the pick up?

Quote from: TheNOP on April 29, 2009, 12:21:24 AM
what is your pickup's number of turns ?
leds are in series or parallel ?

6 turns.. paralell

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 29, 2009, 12:47:09 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on April 29, 2009, 12:24:51 AM

All i am saying is that at one point , the base resistor value will not change the pickup coil voltage anymore.
I said most likely because i don't have a scope.

I believe this is not true.
I have gone as high as 50Kohm and xee2 has gone to 500kohm. As the value of the base resistor goes up and now we see the frequency goes up too, the voltage goes down.
It does change.

QuoteLike i said with 8 jt turns on my toroid , the voltage output is the same with any resistor value 1 k or 1 ohm.

I am talking about higher than 1K and maybe you do need a scope to see this.

QuoteSo how can you find the sweet spot if it doesn't change the output voltage.

I don't follow what you are saying here.

You have found something very important and I am using your design.
Your design takes longer to make, so for some quick tests I use the others that are easier and quicker to put together.

For today's test I used the primary of the new MK2x and a simple turns secondary up to 9 turns. All I saw today was a confirmation that as you know, the volts go up when there are more turns in the secondary. (Of course they do it is basic transformer theory.) But when the volts went up today because of more turns, the frequency went down.
I needed this confirmation.

I think your work is terrific.
Do you have a house being lit or an electric stove or heater?
There is more to do.
Some of us need to understand the principles of this in order to continue.
My tests are often designed to show the principles.
I need them.
If you don't then that is OK.
We are all different and we all work differently even when our goals are basically the same.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 29, 2009, 12:56:54 AM

Quote from: jeanna on April 29, 2009, 12:28:45 AM
page 236
"We may connect an insulated line to a source of such currents, we may pass an inappreciable current over the line, and on any point of the same we are able to obtain a heavy current, capable of fusing a thick copper wire." N Tesla

you are taking that out of context.

an autotransformer.

take 1 wire, make 10 turns, a tap, 1000 turns.
apply 120 volts/1 amp between the tap and the 1000 turns ending of the wire.
you will get 1.2 volts/100 amps between the tap and the start of the 10 turns.
all from same wire.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 29, 2009, 12:57:47 AM

@jeanna

You remember the first mk1 2x67 volts. I got the same voltage out of the pickup coil , the trim pot didn't change the voltage in any way , so 67 volt the value of the resistor didn't change the voltage at all. i got 67 volt with any resistor value.
67 no mater where my trim pot is set , any value gave me 67 volt.

i hope it will make sense now . And by the way IST found the same thing but on his toroid he needed 5 turns.

And that was with 8 turns on the jt side, the most important is not to forget the toroid is the boss .

Yes playing around with other things help understanding but ...

Did you at least try to tune it my way , maybe you would already know what i am saying !

Mark

All of you on here , at least try it my way once then do what you what!

Also when asking question , i see that people never do it right if you tell them how to do it right , but if you tell them what not to do then they will listen.

Hum...

and yes i still have plenty of stuff to show , but one thing at a time , what we are doing is old stuff for me , i did not really work on it since January , i am still waiting for more people to get where you are .

Edit , but remember that with 4 turns the resistor does change the pickup coil voltage!

So the system doesn't always work the same way, i will wait for you to say it again (mark was right again)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 29, 2009, 01:14:36 AM

Quote from: dog812 on April 29, 2009, 12:42:39 AM
I would like to light like 20 + in paralell.

What would i have to do to use such a hich resistor? More turns on the pick up?
6 turns.. paralell

I think you should be able to do it now.
Parallel is the same as one.
page 168 jan 21 is where my notes say this is recorded.

I lit 30 on one turn with the hybrid which was made with the primary like the evilmadscientise type and I ignored the 52 secondary turns but wrapped a single turn secondary around that and right off that single turn I lit all those lights because lighting them in parallel is like lighting one. It took 19mA from the battery to do this.

More turns will make them brighter until they start to blow from too many volts.
higher base resistance will lower those volts to a safe level and lower the amps draw from the battery.

So my tests from today were not a moment too soon, I guess.! (xee2 already told me this back in january.)
Please Try that and let us know.

Use only 1 led, because one is the same as 20 in parallel.
Add the turns carefully or add them til the light blows.
Then add resistance until the light doesn't blow anymore.

You will blow lights this way, but you won't need a scope! ;D

This way you will find the right number of turns to get the volts you need and the highest base resistance you can use to save on the amps draw.

capiche?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 29, 2009, 01:21:11 AM

@jeanna
my example of the autotransformer might not be the best example.

Tesla is refering to his coreless transformer, it can step down as well.
but like the step up one, it need a higher frequency then those with cores.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on April 29, 2009, 01:24:29 AM

not quite a joule thief but made completely from 'junk'. a junk thief?
bulb is from a scanner that was tossed out.
circuit is a royer in resonance.
diffuser (needs work yet) is from a 100 stack of dvd's
power is a 3.7v lithium ion battery from a cellphone someone tossed out. it will also run on 2.4v from 2 rechargable aa's.
base and circuit /battery compartment is a 5 liter keg. lite beer required for the double entendre...
not shown is the circular solar cell for the top. i haven't got around to taking it all apart to add that to the circuitry.

cheers!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 29, 2009, 01:38:47 AM

Wilby:

You have invented light beer...ummm, I mean the beer light. Great job man. That looks very bright indeed. Maybe I will attempt to replicate it. The problem I see is that all of those sized kegs at the stores are all full of beer. I would have to try to find a way to empty one and, also find something to do with all that beer. Hmmm, this is a real puzzler. Wait! I've got it! It may be possible for me to empty it one glass at a time. This will take a lot of hard work but, it will be worth it to have a light like that. I may have to wait a bit after emptying the keg before doing any soldering, ha ha.

Seriously, very nice work.

@ Al:

Good job on the Earth battery. Mine is still new, it will go up a bit over some time. As for the car wheels, someone suggested that a while back on the Stubblefield topic. The only problem I see is that i don't think they are anywhere near 100% magnesium. Probably mixed with aluminum and who knows what else. Still, there is a huge mass so, it may still work very well. Your price is good on those supercaps. Somewhere back in here, I posted a link to Maxwell (I can dig it up if you like) for their 3,000 Farad supercaps at about $100.00 ea. (can you get those at a discounted price?) It will take me a while to save up for one of those after getting my scope. Good luck on the lighting project. I think I have like 5 projects going at once over here. Maybe a 6th if I replicate Wilby's lamp.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dog812 on April 29, 2009, 01:46:18 AM

Quote from: jeanna on April 29, 2009, 01:14:36 AM
Use only 1 led, because one is the same as 20 in parallel.
Add the turns carefully or add them til the light blows.
Then add resistance until the light doesn't blow anymore.

So when i am adding turns. I am adding bifilar turns? so instead of 6 it would be 7, and so on..

I can only fit 6 turns with the 22 ga.. Ill have to use that crappy 30 ga mag wire. I hate that stuff.. its so brittle.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on April 29, 2009, 01:46:50 AM

thanks bill. i think your glass by glass plan is a sound one ;)
yes it is very bright. i am still surprised. i used very low saturation transistors from zetex, ztx869
i am really excited about your EB projects, all of you that are doing them. i think bill's idea of using super caps off an EB is great and couple that to a jt to bump up the voltage enough to pulse charge a cell phone battery i think we can run one of these beer lights off an EB.
the sun doesn't always shine and the wind doesn't always blow but the EB is always there.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 29, 2009, 02:13:29 AM

Quote from: dog812 on April 29, 2009, 01:46:18 AM
So when i am adding turns. I am adding bifilar turns? so instead of 6 it would be 7, and so on..

I can only fit 6 turns with the 22 ga.. Ill have to use that crappy 30 ga mag wire. I hate that stuff.. its so brittle.

No
You are adding turns to the secondary and they are single.

The bifilar 6T,6T which is called the primary makes the oscillation happen.
The resistor at the base of the transistor controls the speed of the oscillation
The number of turns on the bifilar also effect the speed of oscillation because of many factors.
When that basic joule thief is already all set and the light works etc. You remove the light from the basic joule thief place and wind some single turns around the toroid in addition to the 6T,6T bifilar.
This is the secondary , also called the pickup, and it can be made with thin wire.

This secondary is somewhat independent of the joule thief circuit.
It does not actually connect to anything in the bjt circuit but it is turned on by induction created by what is happening in the bjt circuit.
It benefits from the oscillation of the bjt and has a corresponding oscillation which has enough stuff to turn on the leds.

I know you know a lot of this. I just thought I would go over it all just to put it together.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 29, 2009, 02:45:11 AM

Quote from: jeanna on April 29, 2009, 12:47:09 AM
I believe this is not true.
I have gone as high as 50Kohm and xee2 has gone to 500kohm. As the value of the base resistor goes up and now we see the frequency goes up too, the voltage goes down.
It does change.I am talking about higher than 1K and maybe you do need a scope to see this.I don't follow what you are saying here.

Really test it ! On my toroid it happen at with 8 turns , Ist found that at 5 turn , and told everyone about it . Actually he said that his was not freq dependent , i believe its the right wording.

The rules you are trying to make , don't work on any number of turns, but do test!

This is nothing against your work, but there is a bit more to it !

So for the scientific mind , these facts are important ! Testing for the sweet spot , would have showed you that , at one point you not have been able to find a spot better then the other .

Mark

Edit , i show people how to do it because every time someone has something worth attention , you get 200 pages of people arguing about how its impossible , and no one making it , or trying before someone get the same results
since not everyone is able to make things right , you only need one person to say it doesn't work , and then your done and wasted your time.

So i am not about to burn steps.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 29, 2009, 03:02:52 AM

the greater the frequency, the greater the capacitive coupling is.
the greater the frequency, the smaller the capacitor value need to be for coupling(displace the currents)

that is why leds and neons can be light with just 1 connected wire at relatively high frequencies.
as long as the potential difference between the 2 ends is high enough, you don't even need wires to light them.
and it does not only apply to lights.

the greater the frequency, the greater the inductive coupling is.
the greater the frequency, the more currents is transferred inductively.
and the greater the frequency, the less the turns ratio of a transfo is meaningfull.

in electronic those are often called "parasitic coupling" because they are unwanted effect in most applications.
radio, computer, tv and a lots more.
in fact, in almost all appliances that deal with high frequencies.
this is why computer cables, such as IDE/SCSI cables, have a ground wire between each signal wire.

between 60Hz AC, 400Hz AC and DC, DC pack more energy.
high frequency, AC or pulsed DC, pack less energy then DC, but more then low frequencies AC/pulsed DC.
this, and inductive coupling, is why 450Hz is used in special inverter. ex: airplane applications
ever wondered why caps rated for 100 volts AC will blow up fairly fast if connected to a 100 volts DC source ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 29, 2009, 03:06:04 AM

Hey, before going to bed here, I just volt tested the earth battery and it is now up to 2.0 vdc. I noticed this in my tests last year with the smaller set-up. The longer it is in the ground and the more you use it, the volts will climb up a little bit from where you started.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on April 29, 2009, 03:17:50 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on April 29, 2009, 03:06:04 AM
Hey, before going to bed here, I just volt tested the earth battery and it is now up to 2.0 vdc. I noticed this in my tests last year with the smaller set-up. The longer it is in the ground and the more you use it, the volts will climb up a little bit from where you started.

Bill

2 volts, that's sweet. make one of these, http://www.instructables.com/id/Leyden_jar_of_DOOM/
let it charge and tap off it when you need. i'm kidding about the leyden jar of doom of course but the 2v is sweet.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 29, 2009, 03:36:53 AM

@dog812

to add to jeanna's post here (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg175033#msg175033)
you are not limited to only parallel or only series leds connections.
it can be a mix of both.
ex: 5 set of 4 leds in series connected to 5 different pickup coils.

it is hard to tell what is your problem since i never had one like your.
you can try jt's coils variations. ex: 6T8T, 6T10T

you will get more if you split the 2 jt's coils 180 degree from each other and put the pickup coils inbetween.
they must not go over the jt's coils, because the turns that will be over them will affect them more.

i know your application have a space restriction.
maybe a toroid is not the best thing to work with in your case.
try with a nail or other piece of iron.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 29, 2009, 08:29:23 AM

@Bill,
I just took a look at that video you posted where you have planted the 5 LB magnesium block, atta boy, you are getting some more volts too and amps coming up soon also.

Very nice video.

Now, I think you will get more out of your setup by exposing more cross-sectional area to the earth, just make the electrodes bigger.

Good job Bill

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 29, 2009, 08:48:31 AM

@Jeanna,
There is always a happy moment when reading the posts, I had a good chuckle at these remarks of yours, ha ha.

Quote from: jeanna on April 29, 2009, 01:14:36 AM
Add the turns carefully or add them til the light blows.
Then add resistance until the light doesn't blow anymore.

You will blow lights this way, but you won't need a scope! ;D
capiche?

Whats the motto here? geta scope, saves the LEDs ;D

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 29, 2009, 09:04:31 AM

@Wilby,
Very nicely made JT powered beer light, and I see you want to also setup a solar cell to recharge it during the day, good thinking there.

Well done sir. ;)

@Bill,
I made that suggestion way back on the localjoes forum.
My thinking is, the greater cross-sectional area you can expose with the EB then you will get more ma building up to Amps.

You could test this by connecting your DMM in ma to the JT, then remove the 2nd carbon electrode, watch the DMM then reattatch the 2nd Carbon electrode.
I've been keeping my eyes open for any broken magnesium rims, no joy so fer.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on April 29, 2009, 12:25:19 PM

@Mk1 & The NOP & Wilby

Thank you for the info's on the last posts I made, I'm pretty sure I uderstand what you all were saying!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 29, 2009, 10:58:27 PM

Hi everyone,
I just found a surprise in my mailbox...
I am 200 very bright leds richer. and it only cost me 18bucks including shipping
Thank you Hazens1

The legs are a bit short. I could make a joke here, but I won't.
But these are very bright. I just popped on into a jtc on the table. I could read by just one. not bad for 9 cents.

OK. I have been reading the tesla lectures all day. no experiments to report.

@Dog812, Did you find the help you needed?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on April 29, 2009, 11:01:59 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on April 29, 2009, 12:21:24 AM
frequency is not a substitute for amps.
frequency is use for transfering more amps in Tesla's coils since there are no core in them.
but there is also obstacles with higher frequencies and you have nailed one in your previous experiments.

while checking out previous posts to see if the forum "moving" was a succes, i noticed that those 2 last statements in one of my post might be seen as contradictory.

the obstacles i refered too are:
-the way a bjt trigger the transistor change the currents with the frequency.
this will not be true if the transistor is triggered by external mean

-the source might not be able to provide more amps.
see my post here (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg173842#msg173842)

o.t.
posting seem to be possible but there are still a few forum's bugs to level out i think.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on April 30, 2009, 05:05:57 AM

Quote from: jeanna on April 29, 2009, 10:58:27 PM
Hi everyone,
I just found a surprise in my mailbox...
I am 200 very bright leds richer. and it only cost me 18bucks including shipping
Thank you Hazens1

The legs are a bit short. I could make a joke here, but I won't.
But these are very bright. I just popped on into a jtc on the table. I could read by just one. not bad for 9 cents.

Your welcome. My LEDs appeared to be standard length, about an inch with the neg being slightly shorter. How short are the ones you got?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 30, 2009, 06:26:26 AM

Since I have been playing with leds I have seen 2 different ways of determining polarity. The first, and most usual, is that the positive lead is longer. Some newer leds, especially the 10mm ones, have a flat on the plastic bulb on the negative side. This is all I know.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on April 30, 2009, 06:38:39 AM

you can also tell by looking for the semiconductor die in the 'cup'. the cup is the cathode.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 30, 2009, 06:47:56 AM

Wilby:

Great graphic!! Thanks. I didn't know that. See, I learn something new every day from you folks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on April 30, 2009, 09:56:59 AM

@ Jeanna

I have ordered 100leds from Hazens source as well I cant wait to get them. I'm also waiting on some toroid's that are over 3in in diameter, /DC-DC converter, more POTs .01uf 400v caps, mica caps and some other stuff.

Can't wait!!!

P.S. Since you have wound JT's so many different ways I might as well as you if you have tried the winding the JT part of the coil along the top of a torrid and then put another torrid on top of that, then wind your primary and maybe a secondary around both torrids?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 30, 2009, 12:34:45 PM

Quote from: hazens1 on April 30, 2009, 05:05:57 AM
How short are the ones you got?

They are about half the regular length.
these are the non-Mandarin type. (that was my joke) shorter but still chinese.
I am pleased. Actually this is the right length. I always end up cutting about half off anyway.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 30, 2009, 12:50:23 PM

Quote from: stprue on April 30, 2009, 09:56:59 AM

if you have tried the winding the JT part of the coil along the top of a torrid and then put another torrid on top of that, then wind your primary and maybe a secondary around both torrids?

There is one I have not tried.

I am not sure about this. the JT part of the coil IS the primary. So, it would be already wound. then to put another toroid then add a secondary. ?

I think this might give interesting results along the lines of the mag amp.
If you put a cap and pot between the primary toroid and the secondary wire wound around both, you might get the stop reverse stop reverse that is described in some of the amg amp language. I don't know if it can be done without a transistor, but it may if you do it this way.

If you can get the toroid to stop working and the collapsing field to stop and have nothing work for a moment then have it all start up again just based on the flux plus windings I think you can make a transistor-less joule thief, but It is not something I have tried yet.

(so, who needs to sleep?)

The ferrite has to be the right kind.
The winds have to be the right number/s
The resistance and cap making the 2 coils talk to each other has to be the right amount.
I think it will be fiddly to get it right.
GO for it.

@All,
I just went to my profile settings and changed the number of posts per page from the default of 10 to 25. It really helps. I might even change it to the top number which is 50. My page references are all wrong, but "change is a good thing!"

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dog812 on April 30, 2009, 10:03:21 PM

Well i made another Primary over secondary Torrid today..
6 - 6 on top of 70 turn secondary.
It works .. lights LED's.

What kinds of test should I be doing? I am still confused on what test really show any useable data.. To see which one is doing a better job?
If you can tell me where i should be doing these tests on my breadboard aswell that would be a huge help..

Here is a pic and my schematic i am using..
http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aVyBe1A
http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aVyBlw0

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 30, 2009, 11:44:15 PM

Excellent, Dog812!!,
I like the idea of this. There is more room and you are more likely going to want to change the primary than secondary. Having it right there on top is the ultimate convenience.

I think you should start making one.

If you can light 1 you can light 20 in parallel.

I see you are using 2.2k resistor on the base. That ought to limit the amps draw.

You do not need to do any more tests if what you want to do is put lights into your hhoops and start making some money. Go for it.!.

Have you designed the switch yet? the battery holder etc?
I assume you have made a bunch of these in some form, because you showed the video, but I am not sure what more you need to know.

In fact you could try to get more resistance into the base and see how long the battery can last. That is all I would be doing. There is nothing to stop the business now.

Please let us/me know when you have a prototype.
(or, of course if you have any questions.)

great job!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 01, 2009, 12:22:16 AM

@xee2,
Well, this is really interesting.

I repeated the little test on the frequency and volts in relation to the number of turns of the secondary today. Since you suggested putting a cap in parallel with the base resistor, I did that too.
This is a small preliminary test. I only cut a piece of wire long enough for a dozen secondary turns.
I set the base resistor at 929ohm. and made one turn at a time.
I measured the cps and the volts with each turn and added the cap every other time.
It was all pretty straightforward or straight lines.
The more secondary turns the more volts came out from the secondary and the lower the frequency.

The cap seemed to lower not only the frequency but destroyed the voltage. Then all of a sudden it went very very high. Both frequency and volts jumped. The frequency went from a dwindling
113KHz and 1.6volts at 9 turns to
384 KHz and 3.72 volts at 10 turns and then
416KHz and 4.11volts at 11 turns.

I took it all out and started over in a systematic way. This was very promising.

It occurred to me that a smaller value cap in the beginning with only one turn might be able to boost things, and I might have picked the wrong size cap for the job, so I ran the test again. I pulled the beginning tail tight in hopes that I could get 12 turns in total.

So, this time I started with a 100pF ceramic which did not help until I had 4 turns.

At 6 turns a 1,000pF ceramic made the output improve over the 100pF, then only at the 12 turn did I need the 10,000pF cap to really improve the results over the 1000pF.

I didn't have anymore wire for more turns at that point and stopped for the day.

The way I did it, was I looked at the data without any cap, then added the cap. When the frequency boost was going down too much and the voltage was diminishing I checked the next cap. I will make a table. these words are too hard.

The really exciting thing happened with 12 turns, and I should make a longer wire to see what happens with 15 and 20 turns.

The frequency jumped to 2.2MHz Megaherz!!! and yes the volts dropped to 3v-5v. It was an amazing thing to see. There was this thing trying to be a sinewave. It was made out of little waves that traveled up and down the larger wave. a wave of waves. Wow. Each little wave traveling on the bigger wave is what is 2.2MHz.

OK xee, please say... what is this? what do I do with this.

I will make a table and screenshot and post that soon.

thank you for that suggestion and thanks in advance for any help ... ;)

jeanna
I will just add the table as pic below.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 01, 2009, 01:15:59 AM

@ jeanna

This is a list of things that effect frequency as I see it:

WAYS TO INCREASE FREQUENCY:
1. increase base resistor value
2. increase turns in base coil
3. decrease turns in collector coil
4. decrease turns in pickup coil

WAYS TO DECREASE FREQUENCY:
1. decrease base resistor value
2. decrease turns in base coil
3. increase turns in collector coil
4. increase turns in pickup coil

Thanks for the data you are taking. I am still not sure I understand the effect of adding the capacitor across the base resistor. I think the basic function is to increase the time it takes the transistor to turn on again after it has turned off. Since the transistor is turning on less often it draws less energy from the battery. But if a capacitor is also put across the battery, then energy is stored up in the capacitor across the battery between the times when the transistor turns on and therefore when it does turn on it has many times more energy available than it would have from just the battery. So in that respect the capacitor should lower the frequency. The extra energy available from the battery capacitor means that the voltage produced when the transistor does turn on is much greater than it would be without the base and battery capacitors. In addition, I think that the capacitor speeds up the transistor turn off time. The voltage generated across the collector coil will be larger when the transistor turns off quicker. Thus I think that adding the capacitor across the base resistor and also adding a capacitor across the battery will increase the voltage produced by a given size battery.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dog812 on May 01, 2009, 01:41:40 AM

@jeanna
I am still trying to get the LED's brighter.. They last long enough..
But they just arent as bright as using the proper batteries..
That is my next goal.. finding a way to get em brighter

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 01, 2009, 01:52:35 AM

@ jeanna

When I look at your data it seems like adding the capacitor increased the frequency (opposite of my theory - so maybe theory is bad).

I used the base capacitor to get enough voltage across the collector coil to light a neon (about 100 volts). I do not still have my data, but I think I was not able to get that high a voltage without the base capacitor. Also, I was able to reduce the battery drain needed to get a given output voltage by adding the base capacitor and simultaneously increasing the base resistor value. I think it was Gadgetmall who first suggested this and he also noticed that he needed less battery current for a given output voltage when the base capacitor was added.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 01, 2009, 02:23:26 AM

@ jeanna

Hazens1 was able to lower the frequency so much he could see the LEDs flashing on and off by adding a 10 uF capacitor across a 10K base resistor. You may not be able to duplicate this since your circuit is different, but it does seem to support the idea that increasing the base capacitor lowers the frequency.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 01, 2009, 03:01:41 AM

Quote from: xee2 on May 01, 2009, 01:52:35 AM
I think it was Gadgetmall who first suggested this and he also noticed that he needed less battery current for a given output voltage when the base capacitor was added.

yes it is Gadgetmall.
he was using the cap to limit the current, by changing the frequency and probably duty cycle too.

and its also work in reverse.
it might not be obvious, but i stated this before.
we can change the cap and/or resistance (RC circuit) values to fit the frequencies we want/need.

@jeanna
thanks for showing that the pickup coil can affect the frequency.
i was expecting something like this, from an impedence point of view, but could not confirm it.

note that things will not be exatly the same with a load on the pickup coil(s).
a cap is only a load while charging(acte like a variable load).
once charged, it is not a load anymore, unless you discharge it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on May 01, 2009, 06:12:28 AM

i'm a little confused as to this what this base cap actually is.
is this a cap in parallel with with the base resistor? is that what's meant by 'across'?
or is this cap going from the base resistor to the negative rail??

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on May 01, 2009, 08:02:24 AM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on May 01, 2009, 06:12:28 AM
is this a cap in parallel with with the base resistor? is that what's meant by 'across'?

Yes

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 01, 2009, 02:26:38 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 01, 2009, 01:52:35 AM
@ jeanna

When I look at your data it seems like adding the capacitor increased the frequency (opposite of my theory - so maybe theory is bad).

I used the base capacitor to get enough voltage across the collector coil to light a neon (about 100 volts). I do not still have my data, but I think I was not able to get that high a voltage without the base capacitor. Also, I was able to reduce the battery drain needed to get a given output voltage by adding the base capacitor and simultaneously increasing the base resistor value. I think it was Gadgetmall who first suggested this and he also noticed that he needed less battery current for a given output voltage when the base capacitor was added.

Hi xee2,
Thank you for all your comments.
I am returning to this one for a few reasons.

Your theory was not entirely wrong.

The frequency did decrease and it did a lot when I used a higher value cap. It was just some good luck that the length of wire I had cut off gave me just enough to get to the number of turns necessary for the 103 (=10000pF) to come into play in the way to oppose your theory. So, under a certain threshold your theory applies.

I went back and retested the turns/cap value again and that is what I showed in the table last night.

The other part is I never put a cap across the battery. I had not seen any help from it since you suggested it to Gadget, and I eventually removed it.

I would like to try that again. Would you suggest a size and style cap to put here, please? (you don't have to be right, just get me close!)

Also, was the neon which you were able to light because of the base cap placed across the E-C of the transistor? You got 100v across there?

Thanks, xee

@Dog812,
Maybe you have too many turns on your secondary?

I am not sure what made me want to say this today. I don't have a theory to support it.
I just think something is wrong.
5 turns on your secondary is enough to light one light blazing bright. One is the same as 20 if they are in parallel.

I think you are the person who put all the lights in the battery rail, aren't you?
Run the secondary around the toroid 5 times then put the ends into the battery rail that is NOT being used for the battery.

Then put one light into the rail and keep adding them. Keep the polarity of all the lights the same. If they suddenly go dim, put the latest one aside and use another one. Or if you have an extremely bright one and the rest are not so bright do the same.

Please let me know how this works.

@theNOP,
Somehow, many times you seem to be talking about something different from what I am talking about.
So, just to be very clear about my set-up,
There is NOT a cap attached to the ends of the secondary.

@Wilby,
Yes, Hazens is right. The cap has one leg on the base of the transistor and the other leg on the far end of the base resistor.

Thanks everybody,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 01, 2009, 05:23:02 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on May 01, 2009, 02:26:38 PM
I would like to try that again. Would you suggest a size and style cap

I use a small 10 uF capacitor.

Quote from: jeanna on May 01, 2009, 02:26:38 PM
Also, was the neon which you were able to light because of the base cap placed across the E-C of the transistor?

No. The C-E capacitor was just used to measure the peak voltage. It was not used with the neon bulb.

Quote from: jeanna on May 01, 2009, 02:26:38 PM
You got 100v across there?

Yes. I was able to get over 200 volts. But I needed a transistor with a high Vceo so that the voltage would not zap the transistor. The table I last posted was a test of the performance I was able to get by adding the base capacitor. Its purpose was to see what happened with the base capacitor. Lighting the neon was just verification that I was actually geting at least 100 volts out.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 01, 2009, 05:37:29 PM

@ jeanna

How are you measuring frequency? Are you measuring using the two vertical line markers? If so are you making sure you are measuring from the start of one pulse to the start of the next pulse (not the end of the first pulse)? The time between pulses needs to be included when measuring frequency. Adding the base capacitor seems to increase the time between the pulses while the time it takes the transistor to turn on and off again remains about the same.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 01, 2009, 06:16:40 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 01, 2009, 05:37:29 PM
The time between pulses needs to be included when measuring frequency.

Yes, this is how I am doing it.

I noticed I was cutting off a pixel a few days ago and I corrected the results since then. But these corrected results are what I have put on my last couple of tables about frequency. (I noticed that I was measuring from the same place to the same place and so not measuring that pixel at all. Now I land on one spot and then got the same spot one wave away and move forward one pixel so I am sure to include the spot. This makes the frequency a tiny bit longer.)

When I discovered what I was doing, It was at the beginning of a test a few tables ago. I retested that one to be sure there is no significant amount of mistake in these results.

QuoteAdding the base capacitor seems to increase the time between the pulses while the time it takes the transistor to turn on and off again remains about the same.

In fact that is exactly what it looked like before the number of turns reached the threshold. one wave, then a big space or line, then another wave. The waves looked the same but were separated by a longer line.

So, the slower frequency was not an even thing. ie. The slower wave was NOT evenly spread out over time.

I am glad you mentioned this. It means this part of your theory is still intact. There is just this threshold.

Do you have any ideas about what the 2.2MHz is all about? That is
1- a very big jump and
2- the way it looked was completely different from all the others.
Do you need me to attempt a drawing? I might give it a try.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 01, 2009, 06:49:00 PM

Hello All,

I just wanted to give a quick update my new toroids have arrived! The big one is very high flux and low permeability. I have 4 other Big ones to test with.

I hope to have the big one in the picture wound with 6 pickup coils this weekend. I will post my results :)

Take Care All,

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 01, 2009, 07:00:15 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on May 01, 2009, 06:16:40 PM
Do you need me to attempt a drawing? I might give it a try.

No drawing needed, your explanation is clear. Thanks for the offer. Right now I have no idea what is happening. Perhaps you can look at the voltage across the base resistor (which is also the voltage across the base capacitor). This should build up slowly until the transistor turns on and then drop sharply when the transistor turns off.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 01, 2009, 08:13:36 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 01, 2009, 02:26:38 PM
@theNOP,
Somehow, many times you seem to be talking about something different from what I am talking about.
So, just to be very clear about my set-up,
There is NOT a cap attached to the ends of the secondary.

i know, you was talking about a cap in parallel with the base's resistance.

i have a tendency to anticipate things a bit.
sorry about that.

while this does not directly apply to the way you are testing :

Quote
note that things will not be exatly the same with a load on the pickup coil(s).
a cap is only a load while charging(acte like a variable load).
once charged, it is not a load anymore, unless you discharge it.

they are still good hints for your future experiments.

the first can be applyed to your actual circuit(s) at anytime.
the second was a warning about thinking caps are always a "load".

maybe i am trying to go too fast.
sorry again.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 01, 2009, 08:40:54 PM

@all

I need some help winding coils. Can anyone suggest a good way to keep the coil in place? Right now I am using electrical tape and it looks bad.

How can I get a good looking coil? Do I need something sticky on the toroid to keep the wires down? I am using the red radio shack mag wire for my pickup coils and as soon as I let go of the wire it spaces out. I was going to try some super glue but did not want to ruin the toriod? How are you guys getting such good looking coils?

Thanks!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 01, 2009, 08:58:54 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 01, 2009, 07:00:15 PM
Perhaps you can look at the voltage across the base resistor (which is also the voltage across the base capacitor). This should build up slowly until the transistor turns on and then drop sharply when the transistor turns off.

;D
Surely you jest!
At 312 KHz +, +, I probably can't see the dmm move that fast! ;)

Actually the voltage there is 1.35v while without the cap it is 1.2v and the battery alone is 1.27v

I think I have done enough tests on this toroid with this primary.
I will wind it into a MK1x2 now.

@Altrez,
You will have to ask Hazens how he makes his if you want that look.
You can get the wire fairly tight and even if with each angle of the turn you pull it tight around, so I am saying 3 or 4 times per turn you tug and straighten. Even so, I have not been able to achieve the look Hazens gets.
I have used a tiny crochet hook to pull the wire through. It doesn't get the kink that it gets when you "sew" it through.
good luck,

@theNOP, OK I see.

Thank you all,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 01, 2009, 09:31:12 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on May 01, 2009, 08:58:54 PM
;D
Surely you jest!
At 312 KHz +, +, I probably can't see the dmm move that fast! ;)

Yes, using a DMM would be hard. Good thing you have a scope.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 01, 2009, 11:18:12 PM

@Jeanna,
For the next 2 days im at a PC that has a broadband connection, I want to download the Tesla information you mentioned, (I have taken a quick looksee but I must of missed where you posted it, the red forum background is throwing me). If you still have the http address to it, would you mind posting it again please, and if there is other items on Tesla avaliable, could you send those addresses also.

I can see some really great studdy coming up. :D

@Stefan,
Thankyou for putting the smily icon back, I did miss it. TA

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 01, 2009, 11:33:19 PM

@jeanna

Thank you!

@Hazens

How do you get such great looking coils :)

@ALL

Here is two new pics. My setup looks awful! However I am running 10 LEDs and charging a 9volt battery at the same time!!!

Take Care!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 02, 2009, 12:56:48 AM

Quote from: electricme on May 01, 2009, 11:18:12 PM
@Jeanna,
For the next 2 days im at a PC that has a broadband connection, I want to download the Tesla information you mentioned,
jim

Hi Jim,
Here ya go:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/13040608/The-Researches-of-Nikola-Tesla-1894 (http://www.scribd.com/doc/13040608/The-Researches-of-Nikola-Tesla-1894)

There are a few on that page. I like this so far the best.
There is an autobiography. Evidently an interview. a verbal thing transcribed. It is very interesting, but this is the one with the stuff he was trying to explain that no one followed up on but turned into 60 Hz instead.

He goes into some detail about how with his ac one need not use the circuit for the ground, but one can just connect it to the real ground.

He was trying to integrate his new idea into what was already around, so there is a lot of stuff you must wade through about light bulbs etc.
Also, he didn't have a switching transistor and needed to create sparks for the high frequency. We have it easy. But if you cut through the stuff we do not need, you will see everywhere in this, that there is all the information we need. Well, all the information along with all of our minds working and sharing, too.

Thanks to MK1 for first posting this.

Enjoy!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 02, 2009, 02:52:57 AM

@Jeanna,
Thanks for this swift responce, I'm downloading it as I post this off to you. TA muchly.

@altrez
Your are right, it looks terrible, but who cares about that,, I dont, it's functional, the thing works, and that is what counts.
It wont be long before you will be feeding some of the charge current back into the battery, ha ha and what will it be doing then?
A never ending energy device.........hmmmm has a nice ring to it.

I must be going troppo, I forgot to sign my post, duhhhh

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on May 02, 2009, 04:54:08 AM

@all

My new Toy i called it the Tricycle , Yep 3 jt on a single toroid, But why mark?
Well for fun , but only one circuit is connected to the battery , the two other circuit are feeding of the toroid and are NOT connected to the battery in any way , so 3 jt for the juice it takes to power one ! The leds are really bright on all 3 jt circuit.

Now what about having one feed the other ? You say crasy stuff Mark , Yep but it works !

On a one inch toroid , the drawing show the right number of turns.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on May 02, 2009, 08:24:07 AM

Quote from: altrez on May 01, 2009, 11:33:19 PM
@Hazens

How do you get such great looking coils :)

OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder) :D

I have the wire looped once around a finger on the pulling hand while I use a finger on the other hand that is holding the toroid to push the wire onto the toroid as I wrap. After each turn I keep constant pressure on the wire to keep it tight. You can also use a popscicle stick to push the wire onto the toroid to get it as flat as possible against the toroid's surface. All in All, just take your time and figure out a technique that works best for you. After countless tries it get easier and better.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 02, 2009, 04:31:04 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on May 02, 2009, 04:54:08 AM
@all

My new Toy i called it the Tricycle , Yep 3 jt on a single toroid, But why mark?
Well for fun , but only one circuit is connected to the battery , the two other circuit are feeding of the toroid and are NOT connected to the battery in any way , so 3 jt for the juice it takes to power one !

Nice work, Mark.

So, the output from the first fills the cap which acts as the input to the second which fills a cap which acts as the input for the third?

This is the same kind of thinking without the caps I was using for the 2 tier. But then I found that I do not need the second transistor.

Have you tried to use a LOW value cap so it can follow the switching of the first level transistor?
You may also be able to eliminate the two second level transistors?

That might be worth doing since the transistor is the juice drunk. (sorry american joke)- it is an energy waster.

This would take some tuning type of work and patience. You abound in this attribute! It would need to be the smallest cap that would allow the switching to stay like the switching of the transistor. I was using what I had, and I do not know the limits or the overlap, and there is an overlap.

So, I found it needed to be a small cap I used a ceramic cap, and this allowed the switching to occur to a certain value of volts. If I used a cap that was too large value, the switching slowed down.

I am not comfortable with the small and large features of the cap design, but I think I stated the parameters.

Very powerful this multi level joule thief.

I have been trying to make mine in thirds also. I just wonder how it works so well for you if the place at 180 degrees is such a dead spot.
Maybe it is not such a dead spot, after all?

Thank you for this inspiring drawing.

I thought I was going to solder a normal jt with secondary to a battery today, but this looks like too much fun.
I am going to try my suggestions I just made to you, instead. HA!

thank you again, Mark!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on May 02, 2009, 06:57:13 PM

@jeanna

so far my tricycle 2nd and 3dr circuit are only powered by the coil the cap charge it self , this was a testing circuit , i got some more idea for it, but it really works well , i have tried other electro caps value they can be almost any thing .

@all

I made this also , to test the coil in a delta and star configuration , i made 6 coils going all the way around .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 02, 2009, 07:06:33 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on May 02, 2009, 06:57:13 PM

I made this also , to test the coil in a delta and star configuration , i made 6 coils going all the way around .

Wow, Mark,
You may ignore my pm. you answered my question about the cap size, so I will try what I have.
I need to clear a board or 2!
This is very exciting.

(I am learning so much in this thread. I would have struggled so much a year ago. )

Did you measure the amps draw from the battery with one then 2 or 3 added like this?

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 02, 2009, 10:06:45 PM

Hi everyone,

I am still finding strange and wonderful things with my 2 tier setup.

I was getting ready to remove all the pieces from the 2 breadboards and tried putting a small 100pF cap into the battery rail of the upper tier.

Then it began again.

Today,
After putting a small (100pF) ceramic cap into the second tier battery rail and I got 4 distinct ways to turn on lights. They need each other in some way. I can light all of them as single circuits, and I can light all 4 at the same time and sometimes if I remove one wire 2 other lights go out.

There is one place where both polarities are working at the same time, and another where the polarity is so strong, that if I turn just 1 light around ALL the lights in all the places go out.

They are inter related. And the whole path of the wires involved is reminiscent of a figure-8 or a flower. Maybe 2 figure 8's with one petal removed.

In the end I added another 100pF cap into the battery rail going into the lower tier too. Not much changed, but it is still there.

The only weak lights are the ones off the second tier secondary. But those are able to go equally in either direction!
EDIT:
These actually are not weak at all. I forgot there were 3 in series in each direction!

It is using or drawing 30mA from the battery and altogether, there are 11 lights;

Well if I strip it down to its most basic arrangement of lights, it uses 34mA and 5 separate leds which follow 4 different paths and one which follows the same path but with opposite polarity. A truly ac line.

I think this is a lot like the more compact design that Mark is drawing. I am not sure enough to take it apart.

So, I better get some more little breadboards, and I really should solder up a real jtc with secondary and a switch and in a case as I had planned early this morning.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on May 02, 2009, 10:47:47 PM

@all
I know its not the place , but i feel there is no place like here.

I look at my current project , it will be slow since i don't have the part , now how to call it credits goes to bedini and his fan (some for Imothep) also Ed !!!

In clear yellow the magnet disk, in red the bedini propeler less fan motor charger, Ed's Pmh for generator coil .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 03, 2009, 01:01:59 AM

please note the two experiments posted previously will not work, the double coil in parellel does not build up any kind of magnetic current in itself to oscilate and adding a cap to the second coil does not help matters. the transistor is required for oscilation.

i have tried several experiments and they simply leave me asking more questions.
below you will find 2 pictures, the top is where i placed a cap accross the coils with the positive of the cap at the collector of the transistor. this lowered my MA draw by half but had the same effect on light output! i would imagine this leaves the cap fighting against the curcuit but then why does it reduce current?

the second photo is where i have been viewing the cap and resistor in parellel and when seing this i had to ask, how does the cap discharge? the way its positioned would allow the cap to charge but there is no return flow unless the resistor is added in parellel and then the cap energy is wasted! the cap will simply discharge through the resistor back to the other end of the cap essentially doing nothing to the curcuit except providing another way to allow electricity to flow in parellel to the resistor, in this case effectively lowering resistance to the base. so i looked and realized allow the current to flow back and it should work rather well. well it didnt. this is a dissapointment as it didnt make sense to me.

at this time i realize i have not attempted 2 experiments i should have IE the negative of the cap on the top picture is on the base of the transistor, what about positive on the base of the transisor?

the second experiment that needs to be tested is when the cap is allowed to charge to base it is allowed to have its discharge source from the negative pole of the battery. i will try to find a way to isolate it within the coils to amplify the signal.

so far allowing the cap to try and perform duel functions of powering the base of the transister while charging then discharge to the coils amplifying the magnetic current has been a failure but this option should be explored for as you can assume the most effeciency comes when you can have items serve a duel purpose simultaneously.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 03, 2009, 01:09:08 AM

i do not know if it has been tried already however this curcuit appears to draw all of its work off of the coil attached to the collector of the transistor, if this is the case then the coil attached to the base of the transistor should be eliminated and the curcuit could be modified further, i have yet to work out anthing in response to this but simply have a capacitor connect to the positive of the battery and the base of the transistor, have a coil would around the torried going to the collector and when the cap becomes charged it should aid the coil in producing the work needed, however the collector of the transistor will need to be connected to base to allow the cap to properly discharge and utilize the single coil twice. this may build up enough magnetic current to light the led and reduce resistance and draw from the battery.

further tests on this will be conducted.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 03, 2009, 03:12:55 AM

a capacitor in parallel stop AC current and allow just DC to pass.
well, only small ripples of the AC current will be visible.
this is call decoupling
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decoupling_capacitor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decoupling_capacitor)

in series a capacitor is doing the reverse.
it allow AC to pass, but prevent DC currents to pass trough.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 03, 2009, 03:25:28 AM

@ MK1:

Great new designs there. Excellent graphics too.

@ All:

Here is another video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RsFMyZbj1I

Some of you may be interested in this. I am replicating Jonnydavro's No Bearing Single Magnet Bedini Motor. I have not attempted to run this from the Joule Thief circuit but Jonny says it should. I will give it a go.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 03, 2009, 08:38:23 AM

@electricme

Yes it works great :) Today I plan on rewinding the large toroid having 4 small pickup coils and one very large one for the feed back into the main power system. I feel that I should get up to around 50v when I rectify the main pickup coil.

@ALL

I believe I read somewhere perhaps on here that you can take a toroid and apply ac voltage to the primary coil and then wind a secondary on the toroid to power something else. And that if it worked the device would have no effect on the main device or draw anymore power then what is being used to power the main AC device.

I tested the idea and it works! Below are some pics form this mornings experiment. I have also started to add this to my fuji mod as well. My fuji circuit has around 230v AC and once I figure out how to add the concept to that I will post my schematics!

You could add a toroid with a pickup coil to any AC device and get energy from the magnetic filed :) I do not know if this is free energy but it is there and it shows no more draw with the toroid in place.

I am not sure who's idea this was or where I first read the plans but as soon as I find out I will give a link.

Take Care,

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 03, 2009, 01:19:59 PM

Quote from: altrez on May 03, 2009, 08:38:23 AM
you can take a toroid and apply ac voltage to the primary coil and then wind a secondary on the toroid to power something else. And that if it worked the device would have no effect on the main device or draw anymore power then what is being used to power the main AC device.

The joule thief creates ac. So, by wrapping a secondary around the toroid of the first joule thief you have an ac wire.

What I assume you have there is a really powerful one, because although I can't see the string of leds lit I assume they are??

I can not get 110 volts from my secondary yet, but MK1 can.

I am glad you brought this up.

Please show with a drawing what you are doing here? Is that plug on the table a free standing unit?or is it attached to the wall power.

Is that big toroid one that you paid $30 for? I guess if it is high flux and can do everything, it might be a good buy???
Thanks for sharing this with us.

Keep it coming,,, please.
thanks for doing this.

@All,
Last night, I was restoring my youtube lists from when I lost them earlier this year, and I came across a scopeshot from lidmotor where he adds a magnet to the toroid. The frequency immediately doubled.
That was very interesting. and
At the same time the volts dropped in half.
Hmm.
that was very very interesting, don't you think?

jeanna

the ou site seems to have caught on fire!
I kind of like the red.
I really like the pale grey background for the posts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 03, 2009, 02:13:37 PM

@jeanna

Here is a very crude drawing of the setup. So far I have only wound 30 turns on the pick up coil. And its hitting 7 volts when I rectify the DC! The primary is simply wrapped around with the wire from the lamp.

There is absolutely no effect on the amp draw of the lamp I have tested this 10 times with different configurations. The lamp is plugged into my test inverter. However it could run off mains just as well.

So far I have tested and noticed that as I add turns to the pickup coil I get more and more voltage that is to be expected. However it never adds any more draw to the current that is already powering the lamp.

I think with enough turns this could produce some real power!

Neat stuff!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 03, 2009, 02:36:41 PM

@jeanna

The string is Christmas lights that are being used to test the draw on the toroid when it is passing AC to see if there is any effect on them.

I am testing with the LED bank in the picture. I am sure I can hit way over 100 volts as soon as I wind the coil. And also it will not effect the primary circuit at all.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 03, 2009, 02:57:23 PM

@ jeanna

These are the results I get by changing the capacitor across the base resistor. Notice that the capacitor produces an increase in output voltage from about 5 volts up to about 17 volts and also reduces the battery drain from about 10 ma to only about 0.2 ma. The LEDs were put in place of the voltmeter for the photos.

EDIT: I tried 9 LEDs in parallel and the results were not as expected. When voltmeter is replaced by LEDs in parallel the current drain on battery is increased. With one LED in place of the voltmeter, the battery drain is 1.4 mA. With nine LEDs in parallel in place of the voltmeter, the battery drain is 1.5 mA. These results are when using 106K base capacitor. The increase in battery drain seems to be a result of the LEDs limiting the voltage produced at the collector. When the voltmeter is replaced with seven LEDs in series, the battery drain is still about 0.21 mA. The seven LEDs in series are not very bright. But this is only about 0.21 mA / 7 = 0.03 mA per LED.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 03, 2009, 03:31:25 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 03, 2009, 02:57:23 PM
@ jeanna

These are the results I get by changing the capacitor across the base resistor. Notice that the capacitor produces an increase in output voltage from about 5 volts up to about 17 volts and also reduces the battery drain from about 10 ma to only about 0.2 ma. I took a photo with the 106K capacitor to show that even at 0.2 ma battery drain it lights an LED very bright. This photo was taken with the lights on and is dark because the camera tried to correct the exposure for the bright light coming from the LED. I am sure it will light many LEDs but I am not very motivated to spend any time proving it. I do not understand why you are getting different results. The LED was put in place of the voltmeter for the photo.

in this image the cap on the base will discharge through the resistor back to the cap thus wasting the current stored in the cap.

additionally i found that adding a 10uf cap in parellel with the battery had no affect on the draw. this doesnt make sense as there should be additional draw from the supply unless the joule theif has become saturated to the max.

i have yet to figure out how to get the cap to aid this however imagine charging the cap while triggering the base from the current leaving the other end, then when it discharges have that filtered through the coils to increase the magnetic flux.

i do not know how much work i will do on this particular project as the joule thief is a simple way to make hf pulse dc for me and nothing more.

this circuit is maddning with its complex behaviors and simple design.

@NOP i noticed a similiar behavior as to what you described with the cap. when i had it in parellel with a coil it smothed out the current however when i had it linking the 2 coils together it decreased current draw in the curcuit? how is that explained.

perhaps with the cap bridging the coils as defined prior by me falls under the allowing ac only? and if that is the case this is what we want and with a increase in frequency through a increase in the resistance on the base that should get the light output back up. perhaps adding a cap in parellel to the battery would help as well.

it would appear part of the current is becoming magnetic field, and then this magnetic field gets obsorbed by the coil and added to the dc current allready available thus creating the increase to 3v essentially making the magnetic portion of this curcuit a capacitor of sorts

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 03, 2009, 03:42:06 PM

@ Artic_Knight

Putting capacitor across battery is always a good idea, but it will not have much effect unless there is an intermittent current drain that is higher than the battery is able to supply. The cap is able to store energy drawn from the battery at a current it is able to supply and then during short intervals supply current at a level higher than the battery could supply.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 03, 2009, 04:11:45 PM

Quote from: altrez on May 03, 2009, 08:38:23 AM
I believe I read somewhere perhaps on here that you can take a toroid and apply ac voltage to the primary coil and then wind a secondary on the toroid to power something else. And that if it worked the device would have no effect on the main device or draw anymore power then what is being used to power the main AC device.

I tested the idea and it works! Below are some pics form this mornings experiment. I have also started to add this to my fuji mod as well. My fuji circuit has around 230v AC and once I figure out how to add the concept to that I will post my schematics!

You could add a toroid with a pickup coil to any AC device and get energy from the magnetic filed :) I do not know if this is free energy but it is there and it shows no more draw with the toroid in place.

I am not sure who's idea this was or where I first read the plans but as soon as I find out I will give a link.

unfortunaly it does not work like you think.

Quote from: TheNOP on April 28, 2009, 09:10:02 PM
a currents passing in a wire create a mag field that induce a currents in any near wires(or in a core).
that currents created by a mag field, if allowed to circulate, will create a mag field that will oppose the mag field creating that currents.

it mean : you can't have a free lunch this way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenz%27s_law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenz%27s_law)

it won't work, not because of Lenz's law.
Lenz's law is just an interpretation of phenomenas.
it is because this is how nature work.

if it was as simple as that, everyones would know it by now.
thinking all EE, electriciens, electronic repair mens, are idiots, or, they are all put to silence by "MIB" is mathematicaly impossible.

@all
study, then you will know how it work or can't work.
you will be able to focus more on ways to achive your goal this way.

sometimes a phenomena might do exactly what you want/need.

sometimes, you have to work around those phenomenas.
it won't help if you know nothing about them.

most of the time, unwanted phenomenas can not be worked around.
the only thing you might be able to do is trying to minimise them as much as possible.

a good example about minimising some unwanted phenomenas is the mk toroids designs.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on May 03, 2009, 04:19:14 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on May 03, 2009, 04:11:45 PM

thinking all EE, electriciens, electronic repair mens, are idiots, or, they are all put to silence by "MIB" is mathematicaly impossible.

wow, that's a heck of a conjecture... how in the world did you ever come to the conclusion that he was thinking this?
regardless, i'd love to see your math on that... ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 03, 2009, 04:40:32 PM

@TheNop,

I never said anyone was an idiot. I simply posted some results from one of my countless experiments. I am not sure why it works and welcome the chance to learn how it works.

As of now however I am pushing 100 volts, filling caps and lighting led's all from that simple mod of a lamp cord with a toroid.

Its very easy to reproduce the results I have posted and in doing so the experimenter will see and can easily prove that this type of setup draws no extra power form the source and yet there is a gain of power with the use of a pickup coil. I do not know why it works but it does work.

Thank you so much for your input it is most appreciated.

All the best,

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 03, 2009, 05:09:51 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on May 03, 2009, 03:31:25 PM
additionally i found that adding a 10uf cap in parellel with the battery had no affect on the draw. this doesnt make sense as there should be additional draw from the supply unless the joule theif has become saturated to the max.

a cap in parallel do not allow AC or pulses to pass trough.
the battery provide DC currents not AC or pulsed DC.
why should it draw more or less currents ?
a cap is not a resistance.

the currents is limited in series connections tho.
the limitation is caused by the capacitance of the cap.
ex: a cap in series with a lamp will see the current passing trough them affected by the cap value.
the smaller the cap values, the less bright the lamp will be for a given frequency.

due to the chemical nature of batteries, a cap will assist, if placed in parallel to the battery.
it charge and discharge faster then a battery can.

Quote from: Artic_Knight on May 03, 2009, 03:31:25 PM
i noticed a similiar behavior as to what you described with the cap. when i had it in parellel with a coil it smothed out the current however when i had it linking the 2 coils together it decreased current draw in the curcuit? how is that explained.

see above comment and example.
a cap can only be charge/discharge xx miliamps in a given time frame.
the time frame can be somewhat instantanious or set by frequency. ex: 60Hz or any RC, RLC constant.

@altrez
i was not saying you had sayed or implied that.
it was just a question to open eyes about the fact i wrote.
the forum crashed on me the first way i wrote it was in a question form.
sorry if i made it appear like you was saying that.

what you are doing work, yes.
what i say is your statement, "draws no extra power form the source ", is not true.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 03, 2009, 05:21:15 PM

@TheNOP

With my meter's I can not see it drawing anymore power. With that said can you point in the right direction to see that it really is pulling more power?

I have tried 3 different meters and had a friend come over and test with their meter as well. We simply can not find any extra power draw? We have even isolated it down to a source power supply and again it shows no extra power used?

Do you know of any different tests I might perform to show that it is in fact drawing more power with the toroid in place?

Thank you!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 03, 2009, 05:58:16 PM

Quote from: altrez on May 03, 2009, 05:21:15 PM
With my meter's I can not see it drawing anymore power. With that said can you point in the right direction to see that it really is pulling more power?

I have tried 3 different meters and had a friend come over and test with their meter as well. We simply can not find any extra power draw? We have even isolated it down to a source power supply and again it shows no extra power used?

Do you know of any different tests I might perform to show that it is in fact drawing more power with the toroid in place?

i already did tell you where you can have more infos on this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenz%27s_law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenz%27s_law)

if you make it so your secondary draw more current.
the light britness of the lamp will tell it to you.
you can use a normal transformer for testing this.
either short the secondary for a quick short period, be carefull if doing this, and check what the light does.
or use small values resistances able to support a lots of watts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 03, 2009, 05:58:37 PM

@Altrez,
The part I am just not understanding is why you have the 120 volt electric power supply in your drawing.

What you say agrees with what I have seen, but I have used a 1.2 volt battery for my power source. Your pictures insist you are using the 120 volt ac from the wall.???

Are you using the main power? or are you making a joule thief and using the ac from that?

==

xee2,
I just checked in from making a jtc in an altoids box. (I will show you all when I commit to a frame for it.)
I will need to study my notes to see why you say my results are not in agreement with yours. I thought they were!

First it is 3PM and I need some lunch! (altoids all gone!)

bbs,
jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 03, 2009, 06:26:36 PM

@jeanna

I am using 120 volt output from an inverter that I built into the wall plug that you see in the picture.

@TheNOP

I will give that a try..

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 03, 2009, 07:06:23 PM

@altrez

what you are saying about:

Quote
With my meter's I can not see it drawing anymore power

is half of the truth.

i screwed it up a bit here, sorry.

Quotewhat i say is your statement, "draws no extra power form the source ", is not true.

is only true in 1 case.
but there are 2 cases that can happen.

you will have less currents on the lamp if the impedence of the coil is to go higher.

you will have more currents if the impedance of the coil was to go lower.

it is a simple resistances in series problem.
where one of the resistance is a coil impedance.

my main point is that the current will be affected with the way you are doing it.
there are no gain to be made that way.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 03, 2009, 07:09:28 PM

@ jeanna

With reference to the base capacitor test circuit posted on last page. When voltmeter is replaced by LEDs in parallel the current drain on battery is increased. With one LED in place of the voltmeter, the battery drain is 1.4 mA. With nine LEDs in parallel in place of the voltmeter, the battery drain is 1.5 mA. These results are when using 106K base capacitor. The increase in battery drain seems to be a result of the LEDs limiting the voltage produced at the collector. When the voltmeter is replaced with seven LEDs in series, the battery drain is still about 0.21 mA. I Will edit that post to show this new information. The seven LEDs in series are not very bright. But this is only about 0.21 mA / 7 = 0.03 mA per LED.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 03, 2009, 07:49:47 PM

i propose 3 good reasons for why there should be additional current drawn when a cap is in parellel with a battery

1. you now have 2 power sources in parallel available to deliver current twice as fast
2. a capacitor discharges faster than a battery therefor should provide additional current
3. a battery now has to charge a cap and power the curcuit thus creating extra draw

with these reasons there was still no additional draw seen on the battery and doesnt make sense.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 03, 2009, 07:59:40 PM

@ Artic_Knight

I posted a theory of what might be happening several pages back. All theories need verification. If you have a scope then you may be able to verify some of the aspects of the theory. I do not have a scope so I can only guess at what is happening.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 03, 2009, 08:12:12 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 03, 2009, 07:09:28 PM

With reference to the base capacitor test circuit posted on last page. When voltmeter is replaced by LEDs in parallel the current drain on battery is increased. With one LED in place of the voltmeter, the battery drain is 1.4 mA. With nine LEDs in parallel in place of the voltmeter, the battery drain is 1.5 mA. These results are when using 106K base capacitor. The increase in battery drain seems to be a result of the LEDs limiting the voltage produced at the collector. When the voltmeter is replaced with seven LEDs in series, the battery drain is still about 0.21 mA. I Will edit that post to show this new information. The seven LEDs in series are not very bright. But this is only about 0.21 mA / 7 = 0.03 mA per LED.

I agree about the leds limiting the energy in the system. I suppose it could be at the C-E gain.
I am not putting any Leds there with a couple of notable exceptions.
It does get silly how LITTLE amps draw from the battery can still produce a light with these circuits.
I have marked up your chart and schematic in an effort to cover all the differences.
I think the main thing I was wanting to say yesterday is that the 103KpF cap was out of range until I had 12 turns. In all the other numbers I used even smaller caps. There was an overlap in their effects on the system. Perhaps I should continue and make more turns, but I won't at least for now. I am happy that after 12 turns the frequency soared to 2.2MHz with the 103kpF cap which had just gotten into range. I would expect that to go down as the turns and volts went up. At some point I would be where your chart begins.
But as you said yesterday, these 2 circuits are so different and I am testing off the secondary completely where you are testing in the BJTLed place.
Here is the chart all marked up.

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 03, 2009, 08:31:32 PM

Newman's Hot Cinnamon Torroid with 4 bright whites.

The problem is mostly with the shutter, I think. This is the macro setting, but I need to push the button sooo deep that I cannot keep the camera still at this range. But it is also out of focus. I need a tripod, really. :D

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 03, 2009, 08:31:46 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on May 03, 2009, 07:49:47 PM
i propose 3 good reasons for why there should be additional current drawn when a cap is in parellel with a battery

1. you now have 2 power sources in parallel available to deliver current twice as fast
2. a capacitor discharges faster than a battery therefor should provide additional current
3. a battery now has to charge a cap and power the curcuit thus creating extra draw

with these reasons there was still no additional draw seen on the battery and doesnt make sense.

you can propose what you want, it won't change how it work.

the cap is not a source.
in parallel with a DC source, it is a storage place for the current.

a cap is only a load when it is charging, once charged no more current will flow.
the fact that a cap can provide current does not change that.

the energy is took from the cap only when the battery can't provide the current fast enough.
well..., its not exactly true, it is a bit more complicated then this.
but the end results are alike.

a cap is mainly use for 2 things when connected in parallel.
-provide lots of currents in time of needs.
ex: car amplifiers caps use for subwoofer peek performances.
-or current filtering(smooting).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 03, 2009, 08:47:49 PM

Jeanna:

Nice work there! I think the problem with your photos on macro is not enough lighting (no pun intended) in the room. Your shutter stays open longer to gather enough light and, even when I use a tripod, it can still get blurry, if there is any movement at all. If you can take a light or two and place them near your subject, or use a bright flashlight like a floodlight, I believe you will get more clear photos. You could try out my theory on a sunny day outside. Take the same photos of your box project on macro outside and see if it is not more clear. Maybe this will help.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 03, 2009, 09:53:51 PM

@Bill,
Thanks I will look into this.
Here is what worked before, so, I just edited that post and exchanged the last blurry pic for 2 more sharp ones, one with camera flash and the other with leds on.
I have to put the camera on 5MPixels and rest the camera on something, in this case the table, so when I push the shutter the camera cannot move, then majorly enlarge and crop it.

I wanted to take this picture, mostly because I used the newbie wire for the primary bifilar. It is 24 awg and in red and green. This is a very nice winding thickness. The secondary is 17 or 18 turns with 30awg from radio shack.
It isn't as purty as Hazens, but the newbie wire sure helps.

The switch is bad. It doesn't always turn off when off and doesn't always turn on when on. And I think there is a leak. I can read 0.042V across the battery when the switch is off.

Back to the drawing board.

There seems to be enough room in this box to add a charging circuit.

I will also scrap the homemade battery holder too. It is too bad - it is sooo close. The box should be holding the ends of the battery tight enough, but it doesnt.

So, please have another look.

Thank you,

jeanna

EDIT,
Oh bye the way, the base resistor is 2.2k (like dog812's) and the amps draw appears to be 100uA. Not too shabby for 5 lights, eh?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 03, 2009, 10:38:15 PM

Jeanna:

Very nice pictures!! Very well done with that package design.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 04, 2009, 03:23:56 AM

New record for me, neon bulb lit with only 4.4 mA from AAA battery.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 04, 2009, 03:38:13 AM

@all

All the new posts has a lot of new territery to catch up on, some of it is real good food to digest :D

However, I got troubles at my end, I seem not to be able to get a complete download of all the information people post, and I am not able to make PMs, even to myself.

Has anyone else noticed this today?

Also, on P546, 2 photos would not show up in their designated places on the screen, and only half of a circuit came through, I'm missing some info.

This makes it very difficult to follow the discussions. :'(

Im on Dialup, 4Gig CPU, with 2Gig of RAM so this should be in the right ball park power wize.

I only noticed these hickups after the new forum web change cutover last week.

I am open for suggestions HELPPPPPP lol.

Please see the attatched photos

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 04, 2009, 03:51:45 AM

@ Jim:

Good to hear from you my friend. What browser are you using? Stefan said during the changeover (in that topic) the new site is optimized for Firefox, which I highly recommend. I am not saying this is your problem but, it is faster, safer, and offers add-ons like adblock, youtube download, etc. Way, way better than IE could ever be.

I learned about this about a year ago on here and made the switch. Especially with dial-up, you need all of the speed and less bulk you can get. so, my advice is, if you don't use it already, get Firefox (mozilla.com) and then see if you still have problems. If you need any help with it, I am here and would be all too happy to assist. but, you won't need me as it is very user friendly and easy to learn. One day will do it. Plus, you can customize your pages and put stuff where you want it to be. Take care.

@Xee2:

Wonderful job on the low mA draw there. I still can't keep up with you folks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 04, 2009, 03:59:11 AM

@ electricme

I have been getting complete page but sometimes it takes quite a while for it all to get to me. Preview does not seem to be working when posting.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 04, 2009, 09:32:40 AM

@Bill
Thankyou for the Firefox Mozilla tips, I willl wait and see what happens.

@Xee2
Thank you for your last post, I see you also have probs, but its in preview, I had not tried this.

When I tried to make a PM, a warning appeared stating my internet could not open the item.
Then when I tried later on, it could, but I didn't make the actual PM in case it was still flakey

I wonder if this is wide spread? I'l take a look in the morning and see if others have probs.

At least the smily face is back lol

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 04, 2009, 12:31:56 PM

Hi Jim,
I didn't think anyone still used IE anymore!
Really, the change is way easy. It almost does itself.
In other words, please don't wait.

I found that when I stopped the flash animations, which means it stops them from automatically playing, (you just push the button to see it) all my troubles stopped.

It takes a really long time for those flash based ads to download themselves. One odd thing about flash (at least used to be) is that it all must download before anything begins. So, while it is a small file, you see nothing until it is all there. This means that all the ads in their entirety must download before your page can freely load.

Plus many times they are downloading from some other site. I can't say how many times I have waited for chitika to finish sussing my life so it can run my ads for me! ;)

Glad you are back.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 04, 2009, 12:35:37 PM

Quote from: altrez on May 01, 2009, 06:49:00 PM
Hello All,

I just wanted to give a quick update my new toroids have arrived! The big one is very high flux and low permeability. I have 4 other Big ones to test with.

I hope to have the big one in the picture wound with 6 pickup coils this weekend. I will post my results :)

Take Care All,

-Altrez

Where did you get the large torriod?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 04, 2009, 12:39:48 PM

@ Hazens 1

Any updates on your 1000v JT idea?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 04, 2009, 02:31:42 PM

Quote from: stprue on May 04, 2009, 12:35:37 PM
Where did you get the large torriod?

Stprue

I asked the same question ( PM)

I understand that this is the page that they are on .

http://www.cwsbytemark.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=206_222

I asked which permeability he got ( 60 or 120 ) no answer yet .
I am guessing 60 because we are using very low power .

I am thinking of ordering a few different sizes soon.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 04, 2009, 02:55:01 PM

@resonanceman

I got the 125. And it humms or sings when you apply power to the toroid :)

Take Care

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 04, 2009, 02:56:38 PM

It must be 60, thank you for the link. I just ordered some over 3 inches but they had no info in them so I guess I will just try them and find out.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 04, 2009, 03:03:26 PM

@Altrez

Fill that thing up with wire and post some results. I'm interested in what something what a torroid that size can do ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 04, 2009, 03:04:38 PM

Sorry about the sentence structure!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 04, 2009, 03:08:30 PM

@stprue

Thats the plan. I am sure it will run a CFL with 1000 turns of wire. That is my next test.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 04, 2009, 04:22:21 PM

@ Jeanna

HI Jeanna, hope all is well, here is that double ferrite w/jtwinding in b/t that I asked you about. I will let you know my results soon.

1-1-20-20

1-1= 22g
20-20=24g

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 04, 2009, 04:26:23 PM

In that bottom pic you can see the 22g in between the 2 ferrites!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 04, 2009, 04:30:52 PM

Quote from: stprue on May 04, 2009, 04:22:21 PM

HI Jeanna, hope all is well,

of course, thank you.

Quotehere is that double ferrite w/jtwinding in b/t that I asked you about. I will let you know my results soon.

1-1-20-20

1-1= 22g
20-20=24g

I hope so! this is way too much suspense!!!
before you go away, please explain: why do you have a 1T,1T primary? Or am I not understanding your shorthand.

Mine would mean you have 1T of 1 wire and 1T of another to set the oscillations in motion, then 20T on 1 secondary and 20T on the last, which I would assume is the one on the outside. Is this right?

interesting thing here.
thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 04, 2009, 04:48:33 PM

@Jeanna

Yes that is exactly right, sorry I'm really not very good at explaining things because I get impatient. I just finished scraping the insulation off(I think), so after I hook it up I will let you know of my results. I might not finish it tonight because I think I can hook this up (possibly) a few different ways a normal JT cant work.....maybe. I"m really less then a novice in electronics so we will see.

P.S. Not sure you noticed but this is a Mk1 modification/I went up and then down!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 04, 2009, 05:46:04 PM

>you can propose what you want, it won't change how it work.
Right on both accounts!

>the cap is not a source.
>in parallel with a DC source, it is a storage place for the current.
is it not a source? funny its taking a charge from the battery and powering the curcuit thats an additional load with no increase!

secondly. if its not a source how can we use a cap to power curcuits for long periods of time with the supercaps? and dont say thats different cause its not! sure a supercap may be slower than a regular electralytic which i have not seen any documentation to prove this accusation but for the sake of argument lets say its true. then it has a slower response but that is the only difference.

>a cap is only a load when it is charging, once charged no more current will flow.
>the fact that a cap can provide current does not change that.
absolutely agree!

>the energy is took from the cap only when the battery can't provide the current fast >enough.
>well..., its not exactly true, it is a bit more complicated then this.
>but the end results are alike.

now lets debate this one, if a cap discharges at the same time of the battery doesnt that double the amps? the only way to control that is to actually limit it in a power control and supply curcuit? i mean if twice the amps are available per pulse arent they going to be used? there is no limiter here to the current that should flow! well none that has been identified as of yet that im aware.

>a cap is mainly use for 2 things when connected in parallel.
>-provide lots of currents in time of needs.
>ex: car amplifiers caps use for subwoofer peek performances.
>-or current filtering(smooting).

in times of need.... so it wont discharge given the chance? seems to me we are giving it 2mhz worth of chances to discharge completely.

yes the filtering or smoothing of current has been addressed but is not a concern for this particular instance.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 04, 2009, 05:52:40 PM

@Jeanna

Not looking good so far but sometimes you just need to setp away for a while and then re-look/re-try!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 04, 2009, 05:54:32 PM

The scope says
20KHz
125Volts between the 2 legs of one of the leds. (I forget if I had the x10 on. grr, I need to check that again.)

This is melting my switches!!

No, I think I put the switch in the wrong place.
Never put the switch in the wrong place.

The remarkable part is that the lights went on even when the switch was ...

very hot. (just as the box says. Hot cinnamons yikes!)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on May 04, 2009, 07:18:21 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 04, 2009, 05:54:32 PM
The scope says
20KHz
125Volts between the 2 legs of one of the leds. (I forget if I had the x10 on. grr, I need to check that again.)

This is melting my switches!!

No, I think I put the switch in the wrong place.
Never put the switch in the wrong place.

The remarkable part is that the lights went on even when the switch was ...

very hot. (just as the box says. Hot cinnamons yikes!)

jeanna

Hoo-wwee! You all are doing some good work. You're getting into the range where RF burns can be a hazard, though. If you want to see my fingers smoking and some LED's lighting up with outrageous voltages check out my "Resonance effects for everyone" vids. Using gotoluc and groundloop's circuits and aircore coils I was able to light up a neon bulb, in series with some LED's...with a single wire. And I gave myself some nasty little RF burns too!! "Smokin" as they say.
I absolutely love the JT. I've built a few and they are amazing. Keep up the good work!
--TK

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: peterpunk on May 04, 2009, 09:50:39 PM

@all

Hi all:

After that the kodak circuit not matched anyone here, I decided to buy a ferrite toroid core.
Now I got a 58mm outer 40mm inner and 17mm thick ferrite toroid.

I researched an read a lot of messages of this thread and other forums, but I don't know where to start.

The questions are...

Bifilar or Trifilar?

Gauges?

I used a screw to wind the wire (#28) to pass through the hole, but if its bifilar how should be done?

Thanks!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 04, 2009, 10:10:34 PM

@all,
Ohh boy, RF, smokin parts, ohhh lookout, getting into energy here that I'm not so sure of. :D
I think we need to sit down and do a bit of research on RF energy and see if precortions need to be put in place.

@TinselKola,
Welcome to our little Joule Thief forum. ;D
I see from your post you have done a little donut winding ha ha.
Thanks for the above post, it has served a timely purpose regarding RF.

I know in the design of RF PCBs the layout for parts and copper tracks is critical for the operating frequencies, and they have small earthed boxed covering tuned sections in TV tuners, hmmm
But this is about all I understand about this.

@stprue,
Nice double torids wound as a Joule Thief, would you get better results from this if you made the bifilar windings out of tripple wound wire? ;)
Worth a try in this case, just to see what occurs.

I had several double toroids here which I posted pics of quite a few pages ago, did you see them?
Well done with the double T.

@Jeanna,
Thankyou for your kind welcome back, TA muchly. :D

Double toroids, mabe you could try the same as stprue has done, but see if those badies, the blue toroids you have there can be made to work? (only if you want to of course).

@ Thaelin
I got your PM ok, no worries, but when I went to reply, I couldnt.
A Red cross screen popped up, I clicked the OK to get rid of it, then a white screen opened, I clicked the blue arrow to get out of it, then screen appeared to reply to your PM.

Then I saw the address name was missing, so I exeted it. :-\

@ Bill,
Im going to tale a serious look see for Firefox and see what happens when I install it.
Im using IE7 right now, hope I don't loose anything.
:D

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 04, 2009, 10:24:36 PM

Jim:

You won't lose anything because you will be starting over with a new browser. You can still keep ie7 and all your favoite places (bookmarks) but they will be on ie7. You will just be using Firefox as your browser. Once you try it and love it, which I know you will, you then name it as your default browser, and use it from then on.

ie can still be opened and used any time you want. But, trust me, once you bookmark your favorite places again in Firefox, you will never go back to ie again.

There are many things you can do to Firefox to make downloads and page loading much faster, even though it is already at least 3 times as fast as ie from the start.

Just remember, you won't be removing ie at all, it will just sit there and not be used.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 04, 2009, 10:53:02 PM

@Bill,
Thanks for all this excellent help, its appreceiated very much.
Im just about to do this but I want to say a hello to

PeterPunk,
Hello there is it "pete"? we are all a weird mob here, but you are welcome to brouse, wind torids, post your results and dont hesitate to ask for help (I can see you have done this) lol.

If you take a look at http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.5470
you will see 2 big black DOTs, these are the beginnings of the Bifilar windings.

Stick with just 2 wires for the moment, until you understand it completly as it is very easy to get the wire ends mixed up.

Keep in mind we are only going to use the TORID part of the circuit.
The rest of the circuit can wait for a bit, until you get the torid down pat.

The DOTS represent the beginning of the wires.
The ends of the coils have nothing. (no DOTS)

At the top left of the circuit mark the TOP left wire as A
At the bottom Right of the circuit mark the wire as B
At the top right of the circuit mark the wire as C
At the bottom left of the circuit mark the wire D

Connect A and C wires together.
The wire D end goes to the Base of the transistor
The wire C end goes to the Collector of the transistor.

OK pete, hope this helped.

I gotta find a FOX :D ;D :D ;D and stick it on the FIRE ;)

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 05, 2009, 12:03:11 AM

Hi everyone,
I took a break this afternoon and watched some youtube videos.
gotoluc has some awesome tutorials on how to know when you have resonance without a scope.

In his tutorial he says you must have a signal generator, but, I really think you can use a joule thief as the signal generator and adjust the base resistor.

Anyway, I noticed with all of Luc's examples as the resonance went up the voltage went down.

He was not looking there, of course, but as he added caps and lowered the freq or raised it every time the frequency went one way, the voltage went the other. Right up to resonance. (Maybe including resonance too. That is hard to say on someonelse's screen, but it sure looked that way.)

I Also saw one from um kubicop? or maybe lidmotor. This was a couple of days ago. He was showing a nice wave and showed what happened when he stuck a neo onto the toroid. It stuck hard and the frequency doubled. Bam!, there were suddenly twice as many waves on the screen.

That is what he noticed, which is important.

I happened to notice (one commenter did as well) the volts went very much down too. I cannot say how much, but here is the pattern again and people are making it happen all over the place.

coool.
thanks Luc and kubicop,

jeanna

PS. Really, I was having a bad battery day. (like hair only different.)

TinselKoala
It was a stupid mistake that I made with the switch, so don't get excited about that. There are far more really exciting things going on here. And we are getting high frequency without the stupid mistakes. Like the pickup coil resonating at 2.2MHz on the 12th turn using a 10,000pFcap across the base resistor...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 05, 2009, 01:54:26 AM

@ All:

I just uploaded another video to youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4gRDwPqSz4

This is my earth battery running a joule thief and lighting 4 ultra bright 10mm 28,000 MCD LEDS to full brightness!!! I think I can light a lot more.

This is still just a regular JT although this time I made one for this circuit with a toroid instead of a bead. This is so cool!

Jeanna, you are gonna have fun with this over the summer I'll bet.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 05, 2009, 05:15:25 AM

@Bill,
Well done Bill, I have just taken a look at your latest video on Pirate Labs, those 4 LEDs are lookin really good now, I envy you, lol, I have got to find a supplier for magnesium bars and those huge carbon rods.

You are setting the pace here now, ha ha, after seeing what you have done, we all should be breaking our necks to replicate it.

If I was you, I would seriously consider running a set of wires into your abode, and set it up from there.
If you put a bridge diode on the output, see if you can charge a 12v battery, would you have enough power to run the Bedini?

Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 05, 2009, 06:44:57 AM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on May 04, 2009, 05:46:04 PM
is it not a source? funny its taking a charge from the battery and powering the curcuit thats an additional load with no increase!

secondly. if its not a source how can we use a cap to power curcuits for long periods of time with the supercaps? and dont say thats different cause its not! sure a supercap may be slower than a regular electralytic which i have not seen any documentation to prove this accusation but for the sake of argument lets say its true. then it has a slower response but that is the only difference.

now lets debate this one, if a cap discharges at the same time of the battery doesnt that double the amps? the only way to control that is to actually limit it in a power control and supply curcuit? i mean if twice the amps are available per pulse arent they going to be used? there is no limiter here to the current that should flow! well none that has been identified as of yet that im aware.

look, a cap in parallel with a battery can be compared to a pump and a hot water tank.
as you take water out of the tank, it is replaced with new water from the pump.

the water tank in itself does not use the water, if you don't open a valve, the tank does nothing, the pump either.

if it is presurised, it can be used as a "pump", but what is keeping the pressure is the water pump.

Quote from: Artic_Knight on May 04, 2009, 05:46:04 PM
in times of need.... so it wont discharge given the chance? seems to me we are giving it 2mhz worth of chances to discharge completely.

yes the filtering or smoothing of current has been addressed but is not a concern for this particular instance.

given the chance, yes.
but even at 10GHz is won't have the chance unless you give it time to do so.
don't forget there is a battery replenishing it too.
it would be easyer to do so at 1Hz, the cap discharge time is related to the circuit resistance and/or for how long the circuit is closed(currents circulate)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nyctuber on May 05, 2009, 07:41:05 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 05, 2009, 01:54:26 AM
@ All:

I just uploaded another video to youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4gRDwPqSz4

This is my earth battery running a joule thief and lighting 4 ultra bright 10mm 28,000 MCD LEDS to full brightness!!! I think I can light a lot more.

This is still just a regular JT although this time I made one for this circuit with a toroid instead of a bead. This is so cool!

Jeanna, you are gonna have fun with this over the summer I'll bet.

Bill

They ran the telegraphs off this if I'm not mistaken. Very cool thanks for the video.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on May 05, 2009, 09:04:58 AM

thought you guys might like to see this, very cool, simple and elegant. there is an instructable. :)
http://www.yankodesign.com/2009/03/26/energy-seed-a-yanko-love-story/
http://www.yankodesign.com/2008/10/10/trashing-batteries-for-brighter-sidewalks/

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 05, 2009, 09:28:51 AM

@all

I know this is a slight off topic, please have a read then continue with the forum. TA

Australian Politician has a bit of guts.

Whats hapenning in AUSTRALIA regarding the NWO and its hidden agendas?
Read this and see if it reflects the American agendas.

http://www.johnston-independent.com/independents_view.html#.

@Wilby
Trashing batteries for sidewalks, I will take a looksee at you post in the morning its 11:23pm here..

hooroo all

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 05, 2009, 10:05:24 AM

Quote from: electricme on May 04, 2009, 10:10:34 PM
@all,
Ohh boy, RF, smokin parts, ohhh lookout, getting into energy here that I'm not so sure of. :D
I think we need to sit down and do a bit of research on RF energy and see if precortions need to be put in place.

@TinselKola,
Welcome to our little Joule Thief forum. ;D
I see from your post you have done a little donut winding ha ha.
Thanks for the above post, it has served a timely purpose regarding RF.

I know in the design of RF PCBs the layout for parts and copper tracks is critical for the operating frequencies, and they have small earthed boxed covering tuned sections in TV tuners, hmmm
But this is about all I understand about this.

@stprue,
Nice double torids wound as a Joule Thief, would you get better results from this if you made the bifilar windings out of tripple wound wire? ;)
Worth a try in this case, just to see what occurs.

I had several double toroids here which I posted pics of quite a few pages ago, did you see them?
Well done with the double T.

@Jeanna,
Thankyou for your kind welcome back, TA muchly. :D

Double toroids, mabe you could try the same as stprue has done, but see if those badies, the blue toroids you have there can be made to work? (only if you want to of course).

@ Thaelin
I got your PM ok, no worries, but when I went to reply, I couldnt.
A Red cross screen popped up, I clicked the OK to get rid of it, then a white screen opened, I clicked the blue arrow to get out of it, then screen appeared to reply to your PM.

Then I saw the address name was missing, so I exeted it. :-\

@ Bill,
Im going to tale a serious look see for Firefox and see what happens when I install it.
Im using IE7 right now, hope I don't loose anything.
:D

jim

If I get this thing to work and I get decent results I will give that a try. Thanks for the advice!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 05, 2009, 10:09:08 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 05, 2009, 01:54:26 AM
@ All:

I just uploaded another video to youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4gRDwPqSz4

This is my earth battery running a joule thief and lighting 4 ultra bright 10mm 28,000 MCD LEDS to full brightness!!! I think I can light a lot more.

This is still just a regular JT although this time I made one for this circuit with a toroid instead of a bead. This is so cool!

Jeanna, you are gonna have fun with this over the summer I'll bet.

Bill

This is really some great progress, pretty soon you will be lighting your house for free ;)

Some questions...

How long do the earth batter materials last? Since they are in the ground.

I'm sure you have ansewered this before but what is the amperage on your EB?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 05, 2009, 10:19:05 AM

Quote from: peterpunk on May 04, 2009, 09:50:39 PM
@all

Hi all:

After that the kodak circuit not matched anyone here, I decided to buy a ferrite toroid core.
Now I got a 58mm outer 40mm inner and 17mm thick ferrite toroid.

I researched an read a lot of messages of this thread and other forums, but I don't know where to start.

The questions are...

Bifilar or Trifilar?

Gauges?

I used a screw to wind the wire (#28) to pass through the hole, but if its bifilar how should be done?

Thanks!

Check out the JT diagrams section, there is a lot of good info in there.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Paul-R on May 05, 2009, 11:44:52 AM

Quote from: electricme on May 04, 2009, 03:38:13 AM
@all

All the new posts has a lot of new territery to catch up on, some of it is real good food to digest :D

However, I got troubles at my end, I seem not to be able to get a complete download of all the information people post, and I am not able to make PMs, even to myself.

Has anyone else noticed this today?

Also, on P546, 2 photos would not show up in their designated places on the screen, and only half of a circuit came through, I'm missing some info.

This makes it very difficult to follow the discussions. :'(

Im on Dialup, 4Gig CPU, with 2Gig of RAM so this should be in the right ball park power wize.

I only noticed these hickups after the new forum web change cutover last week.

I am open for suggestions HELPPPPPP lol.

Please see the attatched photos

jim

When photographing TV or computer screens, bear in mind that the screen forms
in 1/25 th of a second. The shutter speed should be EXACTLY 1/25 or a multiple
of this (i.e. a longer exposure).

Next to impossible.

The next best thing is a tripod and a slow exposure of a second or so, hoping
that the camera can alter the iris accordingly.

Paul.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 05, 2009, 11:54:36 AM

since the cap has the ability to diliver more power faster i would imagine having the cap in parellel with the battery may be increasing the frequency. considering this is a self regulating curcuit IE when enough current has been built up it releases through the led its a self resetting thus it doesnt matter how much or how fast you can deliver current its allways going to max out at the same level here. but if its able to bring the curcuit to its activation point faster then perhaps its also increasing frequency?

hard for me to tell considering i dont have a scope. if someone feels up to it they could test this.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 05, 2009, 12:05:35 PM

More base capacitor tests. This is with 5 turn base coil. Next post will be with 2 turn base coil.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 05, 2009, 12:09:29 PM

More base capacitor tests. This is with 2 turn base coil. Last post was with 5 turn base coil. This circuit will light neon with only 3 mA.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: flathunter on May 05, 2009, 12:46:41 PM

This particular thread's been on fire since day one, so apologies if someone has already left the answer to my question....

Anyone know any links for advice on Earth Batteries? And where can I buy supercaps from? I'm in Russia at the mo, so i need a company willing to send them out here.

Thanks to everyone for their superb contributions to this great topic. Pat on the back for the whole lot of us, and a special thanks to all the regulars...you know who you are ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 05, 2009, 01:15:00 PM

@ Jim:

Thank you very much. I agree that anyone that is interested should replicate this. I have some plans in the back of my head for later on, depending how much I can get out of this. Remember, I am using the simple, basic JT circuit here. Once I see where those limits are, I will then learn how to wind the MK series and see what I get with those. I will also try to replicate what Jeanna has been doing. This will be an on-gong project for this summer. (and well beyond hopefully) With your salvage abilities, I am confident that you will locate your materials in short order. I am also going to test Jonnydavro's idea to run my replication of his single magnet, no bearing Bedini motor from the earth battery. I have to modify my circuit to comply with his upgrades, but he thinks I am getting enough to do it. That would be cool.

@nyctuber:

Thanks. Yes, we read about that in our earth battery research topics. They found out quite by accident that the telegraphs were still operating long after the batteries had shorted out.

@peter:

Welcome to our topic. At the bottom of this post in my signature line is a link (or should be) to the diagrams and schematics topic that goes along with our topic here. There are schematics and photos as well as a page reference for each one so you can come back here and read the associated posts. I would start out bifilar and build the most simple version and light an led from an AA battery and then go from there. You will find a lot of help here from some very friendly and knowledgeable folks. Welcome again.

@ Wilby:

I have not read your links yet but they look very interesting. I will read them right after I post this message. Great find.

@stprue:

I have not tested the amps in a day or two but as of then, the output on the meter was 12 mA's. This is up from 8 when I first installed this new system. The longer it is in the ground at a given location, the higher the amps seem to go. The most I have ever pulled out was 472 mA's with my Stubblefield coil replication last year. As for how long the materials last, all I can say is I have been running an earth battery for over 1.5 years, and I am still using the same materials that show no indication of any material breakdown to this point. Someone asked me if I can say if I am losing micrograms of the materials and I have no way to test or know that. It is possible there is some breakdown at a level I can't see with just my eyes. Thank you.

@ flathunter:

I would suggest a google search of "earth batteries". There is a good WIKI page with a good explanation of them as well as some good links. Some scientists in Russia have done some excellent work with these. Then, check out Localjoe's topic on earth batteries, and my topic on Stubblefield coils and speculations here on Overunity forum under other new battery topics. Everything I know about earth batteries is contained within those 2 topics. Let me know if you need any help. As for who is allowed to ship what to your country, if it is a US company they would be following the restrictions imposed by the state department. Your country probably exports these materials and I am sure they are available there. Best of luck to you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: flathunter on May 05, 2009, 01:22:35 PM

Thanks mate!
Yeah, I've just read the WIKI page and it is a good summary. I'll be checking out the threads you mentioned over the next week or so but unfortunately I dont have any land to do any testing. I live on the fifth floor and that aint changing for another year or so....but when it does change i wanna be ready to get my new place running off some simple stuff in the back yard - as you've proven is possible. Perhaps not the whole house....yet. But heh, when we get to page 1000, who knows how much you'll be powering??? Thats why I'll be keeping my eyes on your vids for some time :)

Keep going!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 05, 2009, 01:50:13 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 05, 2009, 12:09:29 PM
More base capacitor tests. This is with 2 turn base coil. Last post was with 5 turn base coil. This circuit will light neon with only 3 mA.

Great stuff xee2,

In all these diagrams you have a 220pF cap and a 2N4007 diode also across the legs of the neon.

I assume these are an important part of lighting the neon?

Also, is it possible that I have a blown neon? It came from a fuji camera and I have not added the above elements to my jtc, but when I have tried , my ckt did not get the neon to light.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 05, 2009, 02:47:38 PM

:o WARNING THIS SITE IS INFECTED WITH WWW.SUPER188.COM VIRUS :o

:o WARNING THIS SITE IS INFECTED WITH WWW.SUPER188.COM VIRUS :o

:o WARNING THIS SITE IS INFECTED WITH WWW.SUPER188.COM VIRUS :o

:o WARNING THIS SITE IS INFECTED WITH WWW.SUPER188.COM VIRUS :o

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 05, 2009, 02:57:56 PM

@ jeanna

I do not think you can blow out a neon so it is probably OK. The 220 uF cap and diode limit collector voltage. Without the 220 uF cap the neon will light brighter but battery drain will also be higher. This is because without 220 uF cap the collector voltage will go higher when magnetic field collapses.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 05, 2009, 02:58:24 PM

Xee2:

Thanks for the heads up. Is it the site that has this or your hard drive? What software did you use to alert you to this? I will run a diagnostics on my computer just to be safe.

Thanks,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 05, 2009, 03:06:45 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 05, 2009, 02:57:56 PM

....

Thanks xee2.

jeanna

Ij ust googled the www address you gave and what came up was the downloads page for drivers for a webcam from july 2007. Could it really be still active?
Good luck.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 05, 2009, 03:40:40 PM

deleted - duplicate post

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 05, 2009, 03:46:26 PM

@ Pirate88179

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 05, 2009, 02:58:24 PM
Xee2:

Thanks for the heads up. Is it the site that has this or your hard drive? What software did you use to alert you to this? I will run a diagnostics on my computer just to be safe.

Thanks,

Bill

It is being detected by AVG antivirus software. It is trying to attack Internet Explorer so you may not have problem with Firefox. It is only on this site. I assume the software is protecting me, but I am not sure if I want to use this site with the virus on it. I am also having trouble posting this message.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 05, 2009, 04:08:49 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: xee2 on May 05, 2009, 02:57:56 PM
Without the 220 uF cap the neon will light brighter but battery drain will also be higher. This is because without 220 uF cap the collector voltage will go higher when magnetic field collapses.

I should have said 220 pF not 220 uF. But I am sure you realize that. This virus is getting me confused.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 05, 2009, 04:35:01 PM

@ Xee2:

Thank for the info. I just ran Malwarebytes and AVG and all is clear over here on my end as far as I can tell. Maybe, like you said, it is attacking ie users. Yet another good reason to switch to Firefox although, nothing is perfect when it comes to these type of attacks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 05, 2009, 04:44:39 PM

@ Pirate88179

This is the message I keep getting when on this site.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 05, 2009, 05:03:03 PM

xee2,
Please switch to firefox.
As I have said and Bill and others, it is an easy switch. It was designed to be very similar to ie so the migration would be easy for the people who need it most.
I know 2 really computer-daffy people who switched without a glitch.
Really. There is no sense in staying with ie. (I spose for the drama, but you don't seem too addicted to drama. ;) ).

I am checking things with the base capacitor again.

When it is in range - and it must be in range, the rise in frequency is beautiful. Thanks for that tip.

Now, I need to figure how to get a high voltage at the same time I have the high frequency.

Or maybe I really don't need to have such a high frequency and I can afford to give it up for voltage. Still trying things first.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 05, 2009, 05:03:33 PM

@ Xee2:

I'm no computer expert by any means but to me, that does look like it attacked a vulnerability in IE. I just had a thought, I wonder if this is what happened to Jim as well? Up until last night, he was using IE7 I believe he said it was. I don't keep up with it but isn't IE up to like IE11 or 12 now? If so, that would mean he has even more open areas for an attack.

Thanks for posting this.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 05, 2009, 06:03:57 PM

On my work computer it will start loading the page but before it can it will close out of everything, programs/internet ect. Is this being fixed for the website or is it already on my work computer?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 05, 2009, 06:15:28 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on May 05, 2009, 11:54:36 AM
since the cap has the ability to diliver more power faster i would imagine having the cap in parellel with the battery may be increasing the frequency. considering this is a self regulating curcuit IE when enough current has been built up it releases through the led its a self resetting thus it doesnt matter how much or how fast you can deliver current its allways going to max out at the same level here. but if its able to bring the curcuit to its activation point faster then perhaps its also increasing frequency?

hard for me to tell considering i dont have a scope. if someone feels up to it they could test this.

the thing you got wrong is thinking the cap have plenty of time to discharge.
it does not unless you try to make it do that.
transistors have internal resistance, transformers have variable impedance depending on how they are made and the load on it.

once a cap is charged it has no "load" effect anymore, so why should it affect the frequency once charged ?
shure, it does affect the circuit a tiny bit.
the cap can provide a burst of current that is replenished during the off time of the transistor.
the cap provide just burst, it does not discharge completly, the reality is far from that.

let say the battery does not have enough time to replenish the cap.
what will happen ?
it will only charge to a level the battery can cope with, the frequency will be the same as if no cap.

the cap in parallel with the battery do help, in 2 ways.
it provide currents burst and store back the un-used part of a backemf, if there is any.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 05, 2009, 06:27:26 PM

@ All:

Stefan posted that the threat has been removed. It was posted a little while ago on a topic about this threat.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 05, 2009, 06:37:53 PM

the super188 virus use iframes to run scripting/javascript without any restrictions that normaly apply to those.

firefox is not affected since the iFrames handling code is not the same.
IE is, if scripting or javascript is enabled in "internet zone" sites.

i think MS made a patch for this a few weeks ago.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 05, 2009, 07:03:24 PM

Bill

I just thought I would put in my 2 cents in about firefox

I switched several years ago after having some problems with hackers .

My son told me that most hackers go after people that use IE and outlook express .
I switched to firefox / thunderbird and have not had anyproblems sense .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 05, 2009, 08:01:35 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on May 05, 2009, 07:03:24 PM
Bill

I just thought I would put in my 2 cents in about firefox

I switched several years ago after having some problems with hackers .

My son told me that most hackers go after people that use IE and outlook express .
I switched to firefox / thunderbird and have not had anyproblems sense .

gary

your son is right.
if i were to chose witch one to crack, i would chose the one that is the most used and its happen that it is also the one with the worst default settings.

i am using IE, but not with default settings.
and it is more secure then firefox with its default settings...
i got the payload with IE..., without getting infected.

the first part set the iFrame to load and run a javascript, "office.js".
it is still in my temp internet folder and will be deleted when i am going to close IE.

edit: nevermind, it would not be a good idea to post the payload here. :-X

:D
he used hex encoding to hide the code from clear view.
one of the script is pretty clever tho.
it use an unconventional way to run an unauthorized shellexecute.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 05, 2009, 09:23:48 PM

@ Pirate88179

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 05, 2009, 06:27:26 PM
@ All:

Stefan posted that the threat has been removed. It was posted a little while ago on a topic about this threat.

Bill

Thanks for the update. I am no longer getting the warning messages so I think he fixed the problem. I also scanned my computer for viruses and none were found so I guess the software I have did a good job of protecting me. I am still having problems posting, but I think that is just an overloaded server.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 05, 2009, 10:10:31 PM

@Bill and Xee2
I switched over to Firefox yesterday morning, I didn't want to say anything until I had a chance to use it. That was a lucky squeek, I missed the IE virus attack by hours lol, The install/Setup went smoothly, no probs.

Is Firefox all it's clamed to be? well it is much faster displaying a web page, that is true, that said, I am still suffering from slow downloads, Firefox did not boost the downloads. I only see the faster web pages displayed if they have been downloaded previously. But I havent seen the popups, so yes a inprovement, and it stopped a virus attack.

I still have some photo frames not being filled out 100%, the only way to get this fixed would be to get Satellite access, as the Telstra just don't want to update my exchange in my town. I will think about this a bit more.

@paul-r,
Thanks for the advice with photo exposures, its difficult, but not impossible, I tried to negate the frame flashing, by taking the photo on an angle, thought I had it right, but it jumped when I pressed the trigger. It dosent matter as this was just to show people what I was seeing displayed on my CRT screen.

@stprue,
It should work OK, just make sure the wires are connected the right way, if it wont work, take the other end and connect that iup instead.

@Jeanna,
Blown a neon, Tch Tch Tch, now how did you do that?
If the neon was originally used for a house hold device, check the resistance on the series resistor, it's value should be as marked by its colour code, resistors do have a habit of "going high" if they have been stressed out.

Say it was originally 10,000ohm, going high would make it to read 12,000 ohms or higher, if it has gone high, throw it in the bin, its no good.
I did manage to destroy a neon once, I put the wrong resistor in series and fed 240v AC into it, hmmm it went BOOM, glass went everywhere. Not recommended at all.

@all,
I did a short web search for Magnesium bars or rods last night, I found out they are also used for putting in water tanks and on steel hulled boats,

@Flathunter,
Perhapse you could go to a ships write and see if they have any for sale, hot water systems have them also.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 05, 2009, 10:18:20 PM

@ Jim:

Good news about your Firefox. Now, there are a lot of options available once you get into it. I would suggest that you get the add-ons called: Ad blocker, No script and download helper. I have these and they work great! Download helper allows you to download, and convert, any FLV files, such as a youtube video. E-mail me later and I can give you links on how to "hotrod" Firefox to increase your speed. You are still going to be limited by dial-up but, you can make it the best it can be. And, as you have seen, it has already saved you from an attack.

You can also customize your settings, and page layout and buttons, and headers and look and feel. It will take you a little while to decide what you want but, I promise you this, once you get it the way you want, you will never click on IE again.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 05, 2009, 11:10:52 PM

Quote from: electricme on May 05, 2009, 10:10:31 PM

I switched over to Firefox yesterday morning, ..

Is Firefox all it's clamed to be?
and it stopped a virus attack.

yup
:)

Quote
@Jeanna,
Blown a neon, Tch Tch Tch, now how did you do that?
If the neon was originally used for a house hold device,

No, jim... it was in a fuji camera.
I thought it worked in the camera but it has never worked in any of my breadboards, so I just thought I should ask.

hey,
The php doesn't seem to be working. I had to type in all the code even for mr smily.

Is this true for others too?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 05, 2009, 11:48:50 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 05, 2009, 11:10:52 PM
yup
:)

No, jim... it was in a fuji camera.
I thought it worked in the camera but it has never worked in any of my breadboards, so I just thought I should ask.

hey,
The php doesn't seem to be working. I had to type in all the code even for mr smily.

Is this true for others too?

jeanna

everything work fine for me.
except the spell checker and post preview.

try deleting your temporary files.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 06, 2009, 01:17:52 AM

Hi everybody

I have some joule thief information.

I liked the widow so the other day I made one with a primary just like it and put it into the curiously hot box. (5T,8T,8Tsecondary)

Today I wondered if the newbie wire made any difference to the performance. Since I want another exact widow configuration, I made one and tested it all along the way.

The jtc is the same regular jtc with pickup.
2N3904
different resistors. see below.
The way I put the wires in the jtc is denoted like this:
B5T, means The wire with 5 turns is connected to the base resistor and C8T means the wire with 8 turns is connected to the Collector.

The widow is 5T,8T,40T
made from tele wire with the thick plastic coating and the gauge is 24 awg.

There is another difference which is the way I wound the 40T secondary pickup wires.
When I wound the widow, I wound it pretty irregularly and it seems I started and turned at half way and ended at the beginning area, but it is not regular, and the secondary wires are about 3 deep. I used 30 awg
I wound the newbie all around then kept going past the beginning til done; with each wire carefully placed in between the previous row. I used 26 awg.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 06, 2009, 01:22:18 AM

Quote from: TheNOP on May 05, 2009, 11:48:50 PM
everything work fine for me.
except the spell checker and post preview.

try deleting your temporary files.

I can do the full quote, but if I copy some text and use the quote button it does not put the code in place so I can paste.
And I cannot use the smily buttons or url buttons.
Maybe I need to recheck my profile, I noticed something about php the other day when I made my pages loong.

I may make them 50 posts now instead of 25. One load and I can read the day.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 06, 2009, 01:39:21 AM

@ All:

OK, I had to do another video with more 10mm ultra bright LEDs and here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEr6-4TeCTA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEr6-4TeCTA)

That is 7 of these bright leds. I bought some more today so I have the specs.......28,500 MCD, 10mm, 3.5-4.5 forward volts, 30 mA's. This is for each and now there is 7 from the earth battery and basic joule thief circuit. I did add another 2.3 volt 10 farad supercap but, I don't know if this helped or not. I just added it to the circuit because I had it sitting around.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 06, 2009, 02:54:01 AM

@ jeanna

In the 2nd to top line of your data chart (widow-tele wire) there are two sets of data for the tor23 B5T C8T 40T toroid. One gives frequency as 125 kHz and other as 222 kHz. Both have same base resistor and voltage. What is the difference that produces the different frequency?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 06, 2009, 07:10:49 AM

@all

Disturbing news.
I just read about the proposed Icann Internet control being taken away from America to a proposed G12 which is made up of 2 members of each country as suggested by this article.

October this year is the deadline, Bush wouldn't do it, will Obama do it to appease europe?

http://www.prophecynewswatch.com/May06/0671.html

I think if this goes ahead, then the internet freedom will be curtailed by the interests of the government where you reside.

Australia Gov has a "secret hit list" which has not been published, nor do they wish to let anyone know which web site is on this NAZI list. >:(

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: utilitarian on May 06, 2009, 10:58:20 AM

Quote from: electricme on May 06, 2009, 07:10:49 AM
@all

Disturbing news.
I just read about the proposed Icann Internet control being taken away from America to a proposed G12 which is made up of 2 members of each country as suggested by this article.

October this year is the deadline, Bush wouldn't do it, will Obama do it to appease europe?

http://www.prophecynewswatch.com/May06/0671.html

I think if this goes ahead, then the internet freedom will be curtailed by the interests of the government where you reside.

Australia Gov has a "secret hit list" which has not been published, nor do they wish to let anyone know which web site is on this NAZI list. >:(

jim

1. I commend your trust in the USA for something, that's unusual here
2. I frown at your reliance on prophesies
3. I frown at your wild off-topicness - why don't you go to "we can't handle the truth" or whatever that forum is

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 06, 2009, 01:34:50 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 06, 2009, 02:54:01 AM
@ jeanna

In the 2nd to top line of your data chart (widow-tele wire) there are two sets of data for the tor23 B5T C8T 40T toroid. One gives frequency as 125 kHz and other as 222 kHz. Both have same base resistor and voltage. What is the difference that produces the different frequency?

Actually that is the widow on that line, and the difference is how it is connected to the joule thief.

The first 4 columns are all connected with the 5T on the base resistor of the transistor.
The second set of columns is all wired with the 8T on the base.

I tried to make the table more chart-like but I see I need to refine that. Maybe a heavier line between the 2 halves of the chart would make it clear?

Thanks for studying the chart,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 06, 2009, 01:51:17 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on May 06, 2009, 01:34:50 PM
Actually that is the widow on that line, and the difference is how it is connected to the joule thief.

The first 4 columns are all connected with the 5T on the base resistor of the transistor.
The second set of columns is all wired with the 8T on the base.

I tried to make the table more chart-like but I see I need to refine that. Maybe a heavier line between the 2 halves of the chart would make it clear?

Thanks for studying the chart,

jeanna

My mistake. The chart is clear. I just missed that. Thanks.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 06, 2009, 02:26:33 PM

@ jeanna

I started to look at pickup coil (even though I still do not understand fully how the base capacitor is working). The pickup coil produces a voltage when the transistor turns on with one polarity and then a larger voltage with the opposite polarity when the transistor turns off. This is one way of looking at these two voltages. But a scope is probably better. Note the diode gets reversed for one set of measurements. The polarity of the voltages depends on which way the two pickup coil leads are connected and thus will be reversed if the leads are reversed. The voltmeter is set to read DC volts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 06, 2009, 03:53:29 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 06, 2009, 02:26:33 PM
@ jeanna

I started to look at pickup coil ....

...The polarity of the voltages depends on which way the two pickup coil leads are connected and thus will be reversed if the leads are reversed. The voltmeter is set to read DC volts.

xee2,
What happens if you put smaller value cap at C? - like 104 or 105pF
I don't have (nor does my Radioshack) any caps larger than 104 (0.1uF) so, I can't answer this myself.

I have been seeing that at very high frequencies the polarity may not matter. At some point as the frequency rises, the polarity of the LED stops making any difference, but below that point, it does.

I am wondering if the cap will help this effect happen at lower frequencies. But. I am sure the cap must be in range to have any effect relating to frequency like this. (I am just beginning to see this, so it may be off base) but this might be easy to do if you have a .1uF - 1uF cap around that you could plug into the base cap "C" spot.

I took out those 12 turns I made on the filter. I am planning to make around 100-120 turns around that core today. It is possible that this will put MY TOROID out of range for any of my own caps. arrgh! --- On second thought, maybe I will make 30-40 turns on that toroid today.

EDIT
Let me add this here,
You are showing lower overall voltage with the cap. This may be a function of higher frequency and not the cap.
I can also see that with the cap --or again, maybe this is because of the higher frequency,-- the polarity is not so severe.
I feel like we are on the cusp of something here.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 06, 2009, 04:15:25 PM

@ jeanna

I have no answers to your questions. I am just starting to look at this. I reversed the base and collector coils - data follows. I plan on doing a B2T-C2T-P100T test and then making a new coil with more turns in the pickup coil.

EDIT: re-posted data. One of voltages was wrong.

If voltmeter is replaced with NE2 neon bulb it lights brightly without base cap and very dimly with 100 uF base cap.

Added more cap values for jeanna.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 06, 2009, 05:37:46 PM

In the previous circuit with a 104K base capacitor, when the voltmeter is replaced by 9 LEDs in series the current increases to 28 mA.

EDIT: As the number of LEDs in series is decreased, the battery drain is increased. This indicates that the voltage across the pickup coil leads effects the battery drain.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 06, 2009, 07:00:28 PM

@ Jeanna

Double ferrite does nothing! Not sure why but it will not resonate. I can tell it's hooked up right because I can see amp draw out of my power supply but there is no voltage associated with it, So like my Hazens 350vdc coil it will not work. More then likely user error but regardless it needs to be dismantled.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 06, 2009, 08:16:09 PM

Quote from: stprue on May 06, 2009, 07:00:28 PM
@ Jeanna

Double ferrite does nothing! Not sure why but it will not resonate. ..

Hi stprue,
I am sorry to hear that.

I wonder if you had enough primary bifilar wires on there to set the primary in motion?
It might take more on that end since ultimately it is changing the mag field on 2 toroids?

Oh well, it is almost as much fun taking it out, Or as we used to tell people in the yarn shop, if you liked knitting it once, you'll like knitting it again. ;D

(good the smiley worked today)

thanks for the report too,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 07, 2009, 12:34:04 AM

Hi everybody,
I made half of a new series of tests today.

xee2's tests are a continuation in a way. My largest cap is xee's smallest. Thanks xee for doing that.

Mostly the important words are included in the pic, but just to say,
I removed the primary bifilar I have been using to tune this filter as a MK x2.
I used the newbie wire for it. But there is this piece of must be epoxy in a drop right in the interior and in the way.
So, I went to the Hazenz type of primary wind and left that epoxy blop as the dead spot opposite the primary.
I then wound 23up and 23down on one side of this filter. I kept the 10 up and 8 down from earlier tests and re-tested this with that wire.
I will remove that wire tomorrow and replace it with the rest of the MK1 which I will then test some more.

There are a lot of numbers.
I sorted them to make it easier to read.
I sure hope there aren't any mistakes!
I think the trends are clear if you take the time to pour over it a bit.
So, please don't be put off.
I think this is important to what we are doing here.

thanks everybody,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 07, 2009, 12:36:21 AM

only one attachment tonight. darn here is the coil with the 10 up and 8 down side on the scope.
jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 07, 2009, 01:30:51 AM

@all,
You would have all seen the post by Utilitarian he sent to me, before I rose from my bed this morning.

Should I let this lye, should I ignore it, should I even reply?

I wish everyone on the forum a great and happy day. ;)

hooroo

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 07, 2009, 01:57:30 AM

@Jeanna
These are excellent notes you are making on your research, the layout is well done.

Very very good.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 07, 2009, 03:13:42 AM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on May 07, 2009, 12:34:04 AM
I made half of a new series of tests today.

Wow. That is a lot of tests. I think that we can say that increasing the base capacitor value generally increases the frequency. I was unable to test that myself without a scope, Thanks. However, there are some spots in your data where this does not seem to hold true. I wonder what is happening at those spots.

I did do some more testing today. results will follow.

.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 07, 2009, 03:30:33 AM

Tests with 2500 ohm base resistor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 07, 2009, 03:35:46 AM

Tests with 250 ohm base resistor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 07, 2009, 04:34:07 AM

@Xee2
Nice work you have done with your setup.
I like the way you and Jeanna both record your findings.

Today I decided to make another Joule Thief, just a run of the mill one.
This one is black/gray, it has a outside diameter of 53mm Inside diameter is 33mm

I would 9 turns bifilar onto the torid, (wire size is about 1/4mm in size).
Before the winds, I placed some insulation consisting of cello tape, then wound over that.

The LED is a Ultra bright Green one, sorry, don't know anything else about it as it was salvaged.

The Battery is 1.2 NiCad cell.
Transister is a 2n3904 in a plastic case.
Test Resistor "was" a 1000ohms, I replaced this with a 1K pot for tuning purposes.

OK here is a question, how come the green LED is on at NO current draw?
I made a mistake, can you find it? :-[

The LED is not bright, very dim.

At FULL brightness, this circuit draws 150.0+ma and riseing. (edited after mistake was discovered)

photos
0671 = JT working very low light, at NO amps, see meter.
0672 = JT is at full brightness, resistor setting is at 17ohms current drawn 0.14ma
0673 = LED extinguished, but crt drawing 0.26ma

0674 = Closeup of Green LED and Transistor 2n3904
0675 = Torid with Bifilar turns = 9 consisting of red/gold wire varnish.

hooroo
jim

My mistake was, The meter is on mA, the plug from the test leads is in the wrong position.
When I moved the plug to the correct position, the mA rose to 150+mA not 2.2ma as seen on the meter.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 07, 2009, 07:11:32 AM

@all,

What are SERIES wound and PARALLEL wound Toroids?
Is it possible to have a combination of them together?

0676 = All the Torids have been wound in SERIES, huhhhhh?

All turns are over, through then under and do this 6 times for each toroid, dont cut the wire..
then grab toroid No2 and do the same again, then do No3 to toroid No7.

0677 = Several SECONDARIES have now been completed, 25 turns on each toroid. Sorry dont know the wire sizes. Several are seen completed, several to be done.

0678 = ALL Secondaries are now done, whats next? No sleep tonight for me.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 07, 2009, 08:43:41 AM

@all,

0679 = I have soldered 1 diode onto one leg to each secondary output toroid.
0680 = Each Toroid now has its own 16v 1000uF electrolytic capacitor

Does it have output? YES, so far.

There is no other circuit driving this part of my design, (so far, he he,
more coming soon)

Is there voltage? YES there is. 3.53 volts (hand pulsed)

I am driving this set of SERIES torids by a single 1.5v NiCAD battery cell.
I am rapidly tapping the Pos with the positive feed wire to get it working, soon I want to connect the 6Pak to the humble Joule Thief, why?

The JT becomes the "switch" to produce the on - off pulses to drive the 6 pack.

I will need to put another transistor on the bare bones Joule Thief to act as a "current" switch, mabe a 2N3055 in a TO3 case.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 07, 2009, 09:33:32 AM

@ electrime @ Jeanna

There is really some great work being done by you guys.

Nice pics!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 07, 2009, 10:49:13 AM

@stprue,
Thank you muchly for the kind words.

I have a problem, I need about 6 volts to use to switch a big current transistor, mabe I will go to bed and sleep on it, ha ha.

Quote from: stprue on May 07, 2009, 09:33:32 AM
@ electrime @ Jeanna

There is really some great work being done by you guys.

Nice pics!

Got some more photos of the progress.

0679 = Diodes now soldered to one leg of each seperate toroid.

0680 = Any output? YES Yippee, well I needed a cheer me up.

0681 = Side view profile of the 7 Pak, showing the Capacitors and some of the Green LEDs.

EDIT oops, I just noticed I have reposted the 2 above photos before, nevermind.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 07, 2009, 11:30:40 AM

@ electricme

Quote from: electricme on May 07, 2009, 04:34:07 AM
OK here is a question, how come the green LED is on at NO current draw?
I made a mistake, can you find it? :-[

What is the minimum reading on your meter? I suspect that there is current flow but it is too low for your meter to read.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 07, 2009, 11:35:31 AM

@ jeanna

Your data seems to indicate that the frequency is increased as the base capacitance is increased. Yet you said a while ago that you could see the spacing between the pulses increasing as the capacitance increased. Thus I would expect that the frequency would decrease as the capacitance increases. Can you check this out?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 07, 2009, 12:17:04 PM

@ electricme

Why not try small transistors for each or a few med. sized one!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 07, 2009, 12:30:29 PM

@ Mk1

Any new progress on your Mk x2?

I have just purchased some ferrite toroid's that are 3.38" in diameter, I don't have any permeability or flux specs. Maybe you know, they are from all electronics. Anyways when testing a ferrite I remember you mentioning using 1 wire looped around 1 time, and then put voltage through it/use a bridge and look for fluctuations! Is this correct. How do I know when I have maxed out my turns on any part of the coil?

Do you have any recommendations on a coil of this size? Amount of turns/gauges/what voltages to expect?

I have one more question on winding. You told me that when winding back down you only overlap 1 time. Is this correct? On my coil it seems like you have to overlap on both the inside as well as the outside of the coil to correctly wind back down. Maybe I'm wrong but it looks like you would be back winding on the inside if you don't overlap on the inside of the coil.

I hop this isn't to confusing.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 07, 2009, 12:32:12 PM

@ Jeanna or all

Have you wound a Mk1 x2 on a toroid of this size? If so what were your results?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 07, 2009, 01:27:12 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 07, 2009, 11:35:31 AM
@ jeanna

Your data seems to indicate that the frequency is increased as the base capacitance is increased. Yet you said a while ago that you could see the spacing between the pulses increasing as the capacitance increased. Thus I would expect that the frequency would decrease as the capacitance increases. Can you check this out?

Did I say that?

It varies.
This is what I am talking about when I mean it has to be in range to increase the frequency.
If the cap is too large for the job, the frequency and the volts become lower than without any cap.

See reply #5421 the first 2 lines.
In fact I have a 3rd line not published.
103cap 80KHz 0.44V and then changed to 101cap and got 200KHz, 3.21V

Later - it was with more turns on the secondary - the same overly large cap that reduced the freq and volts on 1,2,and 3 turns, became very helpful in making the frequency faster with 12 turns..
I sure don't understand it, but I think what I saw before is consistent with yesterday's table.

Not long after that post, I think I was describing the effect of the capacitor on the shape of the wave. So, the frequency would be the same, but the shape would be different.
Like this:

__|__|__|__|__ and __/\_/\_/\_/\_ both have the same frequency. They both have 4 peaks in 14 spaces, but when the cap is too big for the job it looks like the one on the left.

I thought you had described this and I brought it up as a confirmation. But the frequency itself would not be different.

thank you. I will check further to see.

@All,

I think it needs to be done in an order.

I adjust the frequency of the toroid with the bifilar by changing the number of turns on the primary bifilar and plugging this into the bjt ckt, and checking this on the scope looking at a secondary of any description. This is just to see a directional change if any with the number of turns on the primary bifilar. (Like what MK1 does, only easier)

Unlike what MK1 was doing, I am going for the highest frequency and nevermind the volts for this part.

So, now the toroid is able to vibrate at its maximum. I can change the base resistor to anything and add as many secondary turns I want to for higher volts.

Now, is when I am also adding these caps across the base resistor and seeing an additional result. (But only when the cap is in range.)

I am sure a formula is lurking around here somewhere. ;)
(more data are needed for this formula to present itself! so please, everyone can help.!!!)

OK I am off to wind that second side and test.
I will check in every once in a while too!

thank you,
jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 07, 2009, 01:40:20 PM

Quote from: stprue on May 07, 2009, 12:32:12 PM
@ Jeanna or all

Have you wound a Mk1 x2 on a toroid of this size? If so what were your results?

No.
I was planning to get that toroid from allelectronics too, but I have managed to put off the purchase for 2 1/2 weeks so far! ;) (some other people like shopping).

You asked MK1 a couple of questions I could answer too.
You can get 1 or 2 crosses per turn on the going back down part. If you just go up then turn and go down you should only be able to get 1 cross. This you can put anywhere, but since the inside is tighter than the outside it is natural to put it there on the inside of the toroid.

More secondary turns = more volts; roughly speaking.

You max out your turns when you run out of room. BUT, this is all too new and still very experimental. I think slayer007 had 7 or 8 rows of turns, so maybe it really does not matter?

Just start. A lot of this will clear itself up when you have put your hands into it.

have fun,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 07, 2009, 01:58:25 PM

@Jeanna

So with the jt part of the coil I could make...say...the two 3 turn crosses / across the coil and my wind ups/ and downs I need to max out? Is this right or am I just confusing what the different windings are called?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 07, 2009, 02:05:27 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on May 07, 2009, 01:27:12 PM

_ and __/\_/\_/\_/\_ both have the same frequency. They both have 4 peaks in 14 spaces

I wish I had a scope. So maybe the decrease in current when the base capacitor is added is because the spikes get narrower. The narrower spikes would have less energy than the wide spikes and thus use less current. I was assuming the decrease in current was because there was a longer time between the spikes with the added capacitance. Any more data you can collect on this would be appreciated. Thanks for what you have done already.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 07, 2009, 02:27:26 PM

I managed to light a fluorescent tube with 1.5 volt AAA battery.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 07, 2009, 02:38:39 PM

@ Xee2:

Nice work on the tube lighting! I'll bet you could light a 15 watt one with that same set up.

@ Jeanna:

Excellent research and data you are compiling for all of us. I really appreciate all of your hard work.

@ Jim:

No worries mate. (like my accent?, ha ha) If you, or anyone posts anything I feel is way too far off topic and/or of no value to the folks here, I will mention something. So, unless that happens, carry on as usual and don't worry about it. We are a good group here and, even though I have moderator privileges, I have not used them on this topic in our almost 6,000 posts. I don't foresee that changing. So, sure as Bob's your uncle, (another thing I heard in a movie) I appreciate your efforts here as well.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 07, 2009, 03:27:23 PM

Simplified fluorescent circuit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 07, 2009, 03:46:21 PM

Quote from: stprue on May 07, 2009, 01:58:25 PM
@Jeanna

So with the jt part of the coil I could make...say...the two 3 turn crosses / across the coil and my wind ups/ and downs I need to max out? Is this right or am I just confusing what the different windings are called?

Yes, start by making the 2, 3turn crosses.

Then put on as many as you can fit. of the up then down on each side.
Or, since you need to cut off the wire before you start to wind, carefully measure an amount of wire - 4-5 feet and start winding. When you get to the halfway mark (fold the wire and lightly crease it first) return back down.

I got some pretty great results yesterday with only half of the winds on, so you can tell at half way if you want to cut a bigger piece and start over, or what you want to try.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 07, 2009, 03:51:25 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 07, 2009, 02:27:26 PM
I managed to light a fluorescent tube with 1.5 volt AAA battery.

WOW xee2!

J4J! (jumping for joy)

bravo. and both ways... without a cap as well. Fantastic

xee, do the secondary 100 turns go in the up then down or just around configuration?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 07, 2009, 04:10:43 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on May 07, 2009, 03:51:25 PM
xee, do the secondary 100 turns go in the up then down or just around configuration?

They are just wound in one direction. They go almost all the way around the toroid.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 07, 2009, 04:12:32 PM

deleted - double post happened for some reason

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 07, 2009, 04:48:35 PM

parallel RC circuit, the capacitor current is 90Â° out of phase with the resistor (and source) current.
it keep the transistor in conducting state for longer.(duty cycle)

the jt also have an inductance( the base coil ) so,
in series with the resistance + cap in parallel to the resistor that give us an equivalent LC circuit and a RL circuit.

LC =frequency(hz) = 1 / 2Pi RootSquareof(LC)

RL = frequency(hz) = R / 2Pi * L <--frequency that the filter will attenuate to half its original power

the bjt is using an RL circuit.
lowering the current to the base make the transistor conduct for a less longer time.

that is why some of you sometimes get odd measurements values.

calculating the inductance value is possible but a bit complicate.
Maxwell's equations are usually used for that.

for air core coils, inductance is in function of coil geometry and number of turns.
but when there is a core, permeability must also be taken into account.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 07, 2009, 04:57:42 PM

@ jeanna

Thanks for the help with frequency vs base capacitance. I stopped taking frequency measurements because I thought my frequency counter was not giving correct readings with the unsymmetrical waveforms. But now that you have explained what you were seeing on scope, I think it is giving correct answers (just not the ones I was expecting). The following results match what you are getting. So it seems the base capacitor is narrowing the pulses rather than increasing the spacing between them. In fact, it must be decreasing the spacing between them if the frequency is increasing. Thanks for the info. If you can do any confirmation tests they will be appreciated.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 07, 2009, 05:07:43 PM

Wow not that I'm home using the mac I cant see any of the pics of xee's I was just viewing at work! Anybody know what's wrong?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 07, 2009, 05:09:56 PM

@Jeanna

So at the end you don't go around the toroid completely and start the overlapping that way? That's not how I did mine but I would like better results then I'm getting anyway.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 07, 2009, 05:52:38 PM

@Mk1

Thanks for the advice on winding for the JT part. Bringing it down to 2 each side brought my volts up pretty nice!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 07, 2009, 05:53:58 PM

Maybe ill try 1 each side!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 07, 2009, 06:03:40 PM

@ all

1 and 1.5 doesn't work so 2 windings each side works the best for "this" set up.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 07, 2009, 06:16:38 PM

@Mk1 @Jeanna @ anyone that cares!

This is one of my new toroids that at some point soon I will be making into an Mk1 x2 coils first I want to make 1 more 1 inch toroid Mk1 x2 using smaller gauge wire for the primary.

Parts to be used
Power Transistor (not sure what one yet)
POT (not sure or the resistance yet maybe a 500 Ohm we will see)
2 800v @1 amp bridge rectifiers or larger
Maybe some sort of cap but honestly I have not seen to much a difference by adding one.
JT wire 22mag or larger
primary lots of 30mag

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 07, 2009, 06:30:54 PM

Quote from: stprue on May 07, 2009, 05:07:43 PM
Wow not that I'm home using the mac I cant see any of the pics of xee's I was just viewing at work! Anybody know what's wrong?

Do you have firefox 3. something?

"Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X 10.4; en-US; rv:1.9.0.6) Gecko/2009011912 Firefox/3.0.6 "

I couldn't use camino even tho it is the same gecko engine.

It is the only one that seems to work, and maybe you need a pluggin or 2. I loaded this months ago but never turned it on til last night cuz camino was working fine.

==
@xee good. I am glad to see this.

====

QuoteSo at the end you don't go around the toroid completely and start the overlapping that way? That's not how I did mine but I would like better results then I'm getting anyway.

Right. go half way around or less because the primary is in the way. then turn around and go back down. - that is half. This really makes a difference.

I see you have good voltage, Is that 195v?
---
About the resistance.

Make your life easy put a 1k pot or even a 5k pot in there. This way you can turn it til the light brightens or til the voltage goes way in one direction etc. then you pull the battery and see what the resistance is.

The power transistors are not necessary, IMO.
You need a switching transistor. It is OK to use a power transistor, but the thing that makes this work sooo well is the high frequency of the pulses.
I am sure about that now.
The 2N3904 and the 2N2222 both are able to switch 200M times (? could that be? I think so.)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 07, 2009, 07:27:51 PM

Quote from: stprue on May 07, 2009, 05:07:43 PM
Wow not that I'm home using the mac I cant see any of the pics of xee's I was just viewing at work! Anybody know what's wrong?

Is there a place reserved for where the image should be? If so, right click on it and select "show image" If that does not work, or there is no image place, your pop-up blocker or other security stuff may have to be reset. I am using the latest version of Firefox (can't remember the number) and have no problems as of yet. (fingers crossed) This version just became available like 2 days ago.

That is some excellent voltage you are getting out of that. I would bet my earth battery would power it. I really need to start winding like you guys are. I am still using the "standard" JT. How much was that large toroid? I think Jim said you could use the 2n3055 which is what i have used on both my Bedini motors. I don't recall how much voltage it takes to run it but probably more than the 3904 or the 222. I can't wait to see what that baby will do. Nice work.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 07, 2009, 08:05:14 PM

@Jeanna and Bill,

I am using Firefox 3, I assume this is the latest software.

I'm still having trouble with images of peoples work being displayed, sometimes its OK, sometimes not. I'm putting this down as a download bandwidth problem.

@ Bill,
I see you noticed that slight problem, ha ha, thank you for your "moderator" post.

@stprue,
It looks as though you have been to the same shop I went to regarding that nice black/grey toroid.
I am getting function out of mine, I look forward to seeing your results.

@all,
OK, does any one here have the foggiest idea of what my experiments with the Joule Thief are leading up to? I have had 1 nibble, no one here has asked, why am I'm tying 7 torids in a Series Parallel configuration. Did you all miss it?

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 07, 2009, 08:22:51 PM

@xee2
I had a meter problem.

Quote from: xee2 on May 07, 2009, 11:30:40 AM
@ electricme

What is the minimum reading on your meter? I suspect that there is current flow but it is too low for your meter to read.

I discovered I had not changed the RED plug lead from the 10Amp setting to the V ohms input on the meter, after I had switched over to the ma setting.

Silly mistake on my part.

Thanks for the enquiry

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 07, 2009, 08:44:51 PM

@stprue

Quote from: stprue on May 07, 2009, 12:17:04 PM
@ electricme

Why not try small transistors for each or a few med. sized one!

Good question, I havent decided to drive the 7 series toroids primaries with a NPN Transistor, Mosfet or IGBT.
With the last 2 items, I need to watch out for spikes which could destroy them, then again, I need to push several Amps through the primary to get the output I need, so I think I will use something in the 20-30 Amp range device, perhaps an IRF540N MOSFET or equilivent device.

Then again, if I decide to drive each toroid individually, then I will use individual transisters.

I have been testing my JT this morning, and not having much luck with turning on a 2N3055, or should I say, use the pulses of the JT at the collector to pulce the 2N3055 transistor on and off.

I added another 1.2v NiCad in series with the other NiCad, but the bulb weekly glows.

If I bridge out the BC548 transistor, between the Collector and the Emitter, then the 2N3055 switches hard on, the 6v globe shines.

I think I need another medium powered transister to switch the 2N3055 on and off with the JT pulses.

I will draw up a circuit and you can see what I up to so far.

Thanks for asking
jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 07, 2009, 08:52:45 PM

Quote from: electricme on May 07, 2009, 08:05:14 PM
OK, does any one here have the foggiest idea of what my experiments with the Joule Thief are leading up to? I have had 1 nibble, no one here has asked, why am I'm tying 7 torids in a Series Parallel configuration. Did you all miss it?

in series, probably bigger backemf, but less currents.
almost same as resistor in series calculation, except for the resistance variations that must be taken into account.

in parallel, my guess is it won't change much more then if you were to connect 2 transformers one after the other.

those with a scope can test this.
-jt with a pickup, number of turns of the pickup 20 turns
-an other toroid 2 * 20 turns coils

-connect one coils of the 2* 20 toroid's coil to the jt's pickup
-connect a potentiometer to the other 2* 20 toroid's coil, as a load.

vary the load potentiometer and check if it affect the jt's frequency/amps/volts.

if it does, like i think it is, from my own experiments, there are no advantages to do it like this.
only more losses to be get.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 07, 2009, 09:14:51 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 07, 2009, 06:30:54 PM
..., but the thing that makes this work sooo well is the high frequency of the pulses.
I am sure about that now.

i am happy to see someone saying the same thing i said long ago.
probably not from the same understanding of things as me, but that in not important for now.
just know that the frequency is important for more then just one thing.
there are limiting factors in any electronic circuits, no matter its apparent simplicity.

next step you are begining to, or are already, understanding it.
duty cycle and the _|__|__|__ vs _/\__/\__/\__ signal, for the current strenght.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 07, 2009, 09:37:36 PM

@ Jim:

I am using FF version 3.0.10. It just came out the day before yesterday. if you are not sure if this is the latest you have, click help on the tool bar at the top, select check for updates, and it will tell you. Also, unless you turned it off, FF will alert you to new versions every once in a while. I found the videos on how to speed up FF and I will e-mail them to you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 07, 2009, 09:37:59 PM

Quote from: electricme on May 07, 2009, 08:44:51 PM
@stprue

Good question, I havent decided to drive the 7 series toroids primaries with a NPN Transistor, Mosfet or IGBT.
With the last 2 items, I need to watch out for spikes which could destroy them, then again, I need to push several Amps through the primary to get the output I need, so I think I will use something in the 20-30 Amp range device, perhaps an IRF540N MOSFET or equilivent device.

Then again, if I decide to drive each toroid individually, then I will use individual transisters.

I have been testing my JT this morning, and not having much luck with turning on a 2N3055, or should I say, use the pulses of the JT at the collector to pulce the 2N3055 transistor on and off.

I added another 1.2v NiCad in series with the other NiCad, but the bulb weekly glows.

If I bridge out the BC548 transistor, between the Collector and the Emitter, then the 2N3055 switches hard on, the 6v globe shines.

I think I need another medium powered transister to switch the 2N3055 on and off with the JT pulses.

I will draw up a circuit and you can see what I up to so far.

Thanks for asking
jim

Jim

I just checked the datasheet for IRF540N
I don't think it will work.

Like most MOSFETS I have seen it has a diode between the source and drain ..... I may be wrong but I think a diode there would waste half of your pulse

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 07, 2009, 09:44:07 PM

from what i understand about florescent lights they love high frequencies, if thats true then should a curcuit designed for higher frequencies be better? according to the work posted by jenna putting a base cap on this at 1f i believe should generate a wonderfuly high frequency. also increasing the base resistor will help a bit, yes it lowers voltage so we can utilize the other technique posted in this forum of having a small primary large secondary (correct me if i got that backwards) to raise the voltage back up. if nothing else a secondary transformer could be utilized to step up the voltage once the desired frequency was met.

additionally i am interested to see if adding the cap accross the coils will help. with jennas work and utilizing the caps ability to create a more true AC current i think we could do the following curcuit to potentially maximize the lighting of a florecent.

i noticed the cap accross the coils does dim the light to a led but it should be generating a more natural AC instead of pulse DC that looks like AC. this curcuit i would think would help with the power draw and lighting the light.

i dont know what the optimum uf would be for the cap accross the coils however.

tell me what you think.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 07, 2009, 10:28:59 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 07, 2009, 07:27:51 PM
I don't recall how much voltage it takes to run it but probably more than the 3904 or the 2222.

Bill

The part you will thorouighly understand once you have done it is there is no extra voltage passing through the 2222 or 3904 when you run the jtc off the secondary.

I didn't realize til today that you haven't done this.

Take one toroid you have already made and wrap a piece of green RS mag wire through it a dozen times. Sand the ends and watch those LEDs light up. And watch how they don't take any extra amps draw from the battery to do this also.

try it, Bill. You'll like it.

I am about to drop another table on youseguys. I am getting better at table making... I think.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 07, 2009, 10:30:53 PM

@ Artic_Knight

I am still trying to understand what the base cap is doing. I do not want to make things more complicated by adding another variable. I do best working on one problem at a time.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 07, 2009, 10:34:36 PM

OK here are the circuits I have drawn up.

0686 = This is my current JT showing the 2n3904 (TR1) which is pulsing the coil.
There are 2 transistors, in this configuration.
Transistor (TR2) is connected by it's base leg to the first transistors Emitter output leg.

Photo 0687 shows a different view of it.
Photo 0688 is the current circuit.

I have 2.4v DC (+) from the batteries entering TR2 at the Collector, my scope shows identical pulses from the first transistor entering the base of the second transistor. The Emitter of the second transistor (with the white wire) shows pulses coming out on the scope.

I have soldered a white wire, is soldered to the (B) base of transistor 3 which is the 2N3055.

But I think there is not enough power to the TR3's base to turn this device on properly.
I might have to change TR2 to a BD139 or a BD681 so there will be enough current to turn "on" the 2N3055 transistor

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 07, 2009, 10:43:44 PM

Here is one more quarter toward the finish of the information on this latest JT 3T,4T,84T
I unwound the scrap of filter wire it came with and which I have used for other tests. Then I wound the other half of the MK1. Now, I have been refining this one for a while. I tuned it when MK1 first described the split primary. I cannot do the split on this because there is some epoxy I cannot remove and I am using that spot for a blank and wrapped the toroid with the epoxy in the dead spot. I still have not tested the dead spot thing myself. I should see where it is.

Here is a screenshot of the table.
This is like the others plus more.

I measured the frequency and volts and ampsdraw as before and also I put a LED in 2 places and measured some more.
I measured the frequency and volts and amps draw with the led in the BJTL spot.
Edit. I measured the volts and frequency across the secondary leads only. (-thanks for asking, xee2.)

The numbers for this are in the table, but I must say that the light was only good on some of it.
On the bottom 3 rows with the 2200 ohm resistor the light didn't go out, but it went out.- if you know what that means. the tiniest speck ever seen.

But no surprise, I put the LED off the secondary and it was bright and beautiful for any cap value.
Now I think of it, these leds are pretty good.
I didn't blow any of them, and perhaps I should have. wow!

OK here goes.

Oh, I will reverse the 3T and 4T in the B and C tomorrow and repeat these same measurements. (the last quarter.)

jeanna
EDIT:
I fixed the mistake in the headings
I did not take measurements of frequency and volts when the secondary was lighting the led. I only took mA there.
I took the frequency and volts with the lights in the BJTL spot only.
I will change this and repost it. I want to catch as many as possible before you download this.
and again for easier understanding.
sorry. I will repost it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 07, 2009, 11:32:15 PM

@Jim,
It is an interesting thing you are trying to do.
I did the 2 tier circuit where the output from the secondary was the feed to another whole JTC, and learned that the second transistor was completely unused by the circuit. I took it out and the circuit worked on the pulses provided by the single transistor.

It was weak, however, until I connected the wires in a mobius or infinite loop utilizing 3 out of the 4 available coils all being run by the first coil. Then the circuit was strong.

This is not what you are doing.

If what you are doing appears weak, remember to try something else. Do not stop right away.

What you are doing looks a bit more like the idea MK1 posted a few days ago. Not the same thing, but on the same lines as his.

Well, I say, go for it.

the most you can lose is a bit of solder. Right?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 07, 2009, 11:38:53 PM

@ jeanna

Nice looking charts. Are all of the voltages measured between the two pickup coil leads? If not, can you explain where the voltages were measured.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 07, 2009, 11:52:10 PM

@ Jeanna:

What Jim is now describing is what I meant in my earlier post about the 3055 transistor needing more juice to turn on. I have nothing against the 3055, i am using several of them as we speak, I just was pointing out the additional power needed.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 08, 2009, 12:09:18 AM

@All,
I just finished a reply, it took me about an hour, to all those who have helped me today, and I went to preview, then it siezed up, I could not post the reply, and I ended up loosing it,

Then when the RED message appeared at the top of screen mentioning someone had made another post, and to take a look if I wanted to. But didn't.

I still could not post.

I saw a paperclip with a .jpg file so I clicked on this and was promply told I could not open it as it wasn't allowed.

@ Bill
Any chance of PMing Stefan, and ask him if he is aware of the probs some of us are having on this new forum he has updated to?
He probably is aware of it, but tied up with other stuff.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 08, 2009, 12:11:59 AM

Jim:

You can turn off the alert when someone is posting at the same time you are if you want to. I have mine turned off. You can do this in the look and feel section on your profile if I remember correctly. As for the paperclip, I have never seen that one.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 08, 2009, 12:14:05 AM

Quote from: xee2 on May 07, 2009, 02:05:27 PM
@ jeanna

I wish I had a scope. So maybe the decrease in current when the base capacitor is added is because the spikes get narrower. The narrower spikes would have less energy than the wide spikes and thus use less current. I was assuming the decrease in current was because there was a longer time between the spikes with the added capacitance. Any more data you can collect on this would be appreciated. Thanks for what you have done already.

This needs a reply, because the skinny spikes are often the ones without the cap and the broader more sinewave-like are the ones with the caps.

On some with the higher caps value, the wave is very wild. The scope cannot make it out at first and it looks like a coil gun wave. The so called ring. First tall then shorter and shorter etc. Ist showed one like this once. He was hand pulsing it with the battery, if you remember.

But this was happening with the cap 103 and 104 only. But the overall voltage and frequency if it was true, was quite low there. I suspect the scope just couldn't read it properly.

The other thing to mention is that I am seeing a pretty steady change in volts and amps draw. and, there is no surprise with the amps draw on the BJTL spot. the light goes really dim when the amps draw is low.

As always, the surprise is found on the secondary. The light off the secondary was not blazing but very bright no matter what the cap size was. And you will notice that the amps draw did increase when I had the light running off that secondary.-- by about 10mA.

The only place where there was trhe same brightness led running off the secondary and very little amps draw, was on the bottom 2 rows of the 2200ohm group. With the 103 and 104 and with the led across the secondary, the amps draw was only 2.6 and 2.3mA.

The brightness of the light off the secondary is unchanged by the cap.
With or without a cap at the base of the transistor, it is still bright but about 1/3 as bright as in the BJTL spot with no cap.

So, it seems the cap will change the basic circuit, but the effect on the light being lit by the secondary is extremely small. Not visible.

I wish you had a scope too!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 08, 2009, 12:15:02 AM

Jim:

Do your pms not work either? If not, let me know and I will copy and paste your post to Stefan. Are you running adblocker and no script yet? If so, look down in the lower right hand corner of your page, unless you say it is ok, it will block some items on a page, the same with adblock at the top right side of the page. Most of them, you don't want, but some, you do. It will learn as you tell it.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 08, 2009, 12:18:54 AM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on May 07, 2009, 09:44:07 PM
from what i understand about florescent lights they love high frequencies, if thats true then should a curcuit designed for higher frequencies be better?

yes, they love rf.
22kHz and 66kHz unit for florescent lights do exist and they are way more efficient then normal ballasts.
the problem is sheilding the rf, to be fcc compliant, cost more.
that is why they are not available on the public market.

Quote from: Artic_Knight on May 07, 2009, 09:44:07 PM
according to the work posted by jenna putting a base cap on this at 1f i believe should generate a wonderfuly high frequency. also increasing the base resistor will help a bit, yes it lowers voltage so we can utilize the other technique posted in this forum of having a small primary large secondary (correct me if i got that backwards) to raise the voltage back up. if nothing else a secondary transformer could be utilized to step up the voltage once the desired frequency was met.

problem is no jt is the same, a cap value might not work the same on all jts.
same for the number of turns

Quote from: Artic_Knight on May 07, 2009, 09:44:07 PM
additionally i am interested to see if adding the cap accross the coils will help. with jennas work and utilizing the caps ability to create a more true AC current i think we could do the following curcuit to potentially maximize the lighting of a florecent.

i noticed the cap accross the coils does dim the light to a led but it should be generating a more natural AC instead of pulse DC that looks like AC. this curcuit i would think would help with the power draw and lighting the light.

i dont know what the optimum uf would be for the cap accross the coils however.

tell me what you think.

in series with the collector coil, you will limit the current by the cap value. ex: 1mF = 1miliamp

in parallel, i am not sure.
it is related to the pontential difference between both coils.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 08, 2009, 12:19:44 AM

Quote from: xee2 on May 07, 2009, 11:38:53 PM
@ jeanna

Nice looking charts.

Thanks. It is tricky because it is an html editor and it is an html table.

QuoteAre all of the voltages measured between the two pickup coil leads? If not, can you explain where the voltages were measured.

Yes, and that is the reason I do not have voltages and frequencies for the set with the led across the secondary. I would like to know if there is a way to read them accurately at the same time.

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 08, 2009, 12:28:45 AM

@Bill,
WOW, three posts on this forum while I ducked out for 5 minutes. Ha ha.
I got your email Bill, I want to post these circuits first, then while the 2 emails are downloading, Ill buy a carton of milk, I like my cuppa T, lol

@Jeanna,
Thank you for the encouragement, its very welcome.

@all my main gole here is to get some output power from my JT battery, to drive a 12v DC fan or wiper motor, if this means using up the amps in the battery 7 times faster, then so be it.
I can always recharge the battery.
After this is working, then I want to syphon some of the excess energy back into the battery.

OK, here are the circuits.

0682 = Whole circuit, it is drawn on a A4 size sheet but will look much smaller on your PC.
0689 = I cut the sheet in half so to speak. This is the LEFT side of the crt
0691 = Right side of the circuit
0692 = Close up of Toroids, showing 1 section out of 7, X by 7 to get 7 times output.
0692 = Close up of how I soldered in the 2nd transistor, which is powered off the 1st JT transistor.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 08, 2009, 12:55:13 AM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on May 08, 2009, 12:19:44 AM
I would like to know if there is a way to read them accurately at the same time.

I am not sure if I understand correctly. But, when you put an LED between the two pickup coil leads (or anywhere for that matter) the LED will act as a voltage limiter and limit the voltage to about 3.5 volts. If two LEDs are put in series, then each one will have 3.5 volts across it and so two in series will be a 7.0 volts (etc.). Thus the LEDs will set the voltage until they exceed the available voltage. So I guess the answer is no. If that is not what you were asking, please ask again.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 08, 2009, 01:11:54 AM

Quote from: xee2 on May 08, 2009, 12:55:13 AM
But, when you put an LED between the two pickup coil leads (or anywhere for that matter) the LED will act as a voltage limiter and limit the voltage to about 3.5 volts.
...
. So I guess the answer is no.

Thanks xee,
That is exactly what I meant. It is too bad. I was trying to peek into the frequency and voltage across the secondary by using another coil turned around the same toroid. I only got a peek, because I could only get a general gauge of the shape etc of the wave.

I wonder if I used the 2 exactly paired halves of an mk1 and read across one half and used the other half for the led. I wonder if I could see any difference from the coil output. who knows what it would be so, It still would not say much.

thank you for that answer,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 08, 2009, 03:56:54 AM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on May 08, 2009, 01:11:54 AM
I wonder if I used the 2 exactly paired halves of an mk1 and read across one half and used the other half for the led. I wonder if I could see any difference from the coil output. who knows what it would be so, It still would not say much.

All of the coils are very tightly coupled to each other by mutual coupling. Anything you do to the load on one coil is going to effect the other coils.

One of the voltages in your data matrix is 140 volts. That should be more than enough to light up your neon bulb.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 08, 2009, 08:33:10 AM

Quote from: jeanna on May 07, 2009, 06:30:54 PM
Do you have firefox 3. something?

"Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X 10.4; en-US; rv:1.9.0.6) Gecko/2009011912 Firefox/3.0.6 "

I couldn't use camino even tho it is the same gecko engine.

It is the only one that seems to work, and maybe you need a pluggin or 2. I loaded this months ago but never turned it on til last night cuz camino was working fine.

==
@xee good. I am glad to see this.

====
Right. go half way around or less because the primary is in the way. then turn around and go back down. - that is half. This really makes a difference.

I see you have good voltage, Is that 195v?
---
About the resistance.

Make your life easy put a 1k pot or even a 5k pot in there. This way you can turn it til the light brightens or til the voltage goes way in one direction etc. then you pull the battery and see what the resistance is.

The power transistors are not necessary, IMO.
You need a switching transistor. It is OK to use a power transistor, but the thing that makes this work sooo well is the high frequency of the pulses.
I am sure about that now.
The 2N3904 and the 2N2222 both are able to switch 200M times (? could that be? I think so.)

jeanna

Thank you for the info's Jeanna, I think I understand everything. On the set up you see I am using a 500Ohn POT but it's out of the pic. 195v rectified which really isn't to bad considering that it is not wound correctly. It is still capable of llighting neons and leds on either polarity.

Thank again ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 08, 2009, 08:41:29 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 07, 2009, 07:27:51 PM

That is some excellent voltage you are getting out of that. I would bet my earth battery would power it. I really need to start winding like you guys are. I am still using the "standard" JT. How much was that large toroid? I think Jim said you could use the 2n3055 which is what i have used on both my Bedini motors. I don't recall how much voltage it takes to run it but probably more than the 3904 or the 222. I can't wait to see what that baby will do. Nice work.

Bill

That particular toroid is 3.38", is from www.allelectronics.com and cost $3.50 each, I purchased 4 so I hope they work good. You should definetly start winding your coils in some form of the Mk1 styles. My next one I will document closely and post. As for your earth battery, well I bet it would light that rig of mine. I Would like to know more about your exact set i.e. cost materials and where you purchased from. Between these 2 techs even currently we should be able to light our houses for free!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 08, 2009, 08:46:47 AM

Quote from: electricme on May 07, 2009, 08:05:14 PM

@stprue,
It looks as though you have been to the same shop I went to regarding that nice black/grey toroid.
I am getting function out of mine, I look forward to seeing your results.

@all,
OK, does any one here have the foggiest idea of what my experiments with the Joule Thief are leading up to? I have had 1 nibble, no one here has asked, why am I'm tying 7 torids in a Series Parallel configuration. Did you all miss it?

jim

I have a feeling I will need to buy more wire before I start the big toroid. I remember you post a high voltage/high amp diagram w/like 8 to 10 coils, You have started your construction haven't you?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 08, 2009, 11:58:49 AM

Here is the pdf from motorola on their 2N3055

also a screenshot of a list that includes our 3 transistors
2N2222A .......... 300MHz
2N3055...............800KHz
2N3904...............300MHz

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 08, 2009, 01:12:36 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 08, 2009, 03:56:54 AM
@ jeanna

All of the coils are very tightly coupled to each other by mutual coupling. Anything you do to the load on one coil is going to effect the other coils.

Thanks. I will have a peek.

QuoteOne of the voltages in your data matrix is 140 volts. That should be more than enough to light up your neon bulb.

This is why I am puzzled. I fixed up another one from another high voltage cam circuit today. It doesn't light either.

I have asked before, but I just think there is something obvious to others that I am missing, like a diode or something.
Just staright across the 2 wires in the same 'across' way that the scope claims 140v or 125v today with a more tired battery, should do it, I believe. Especially as the curve of the wave is not very spiky at all. I really don't understand this.

I just put 16 superwhite leds in series which lit OK, and should require 56 volts. 8 light very brightly. I am sure I could satisfy the 'turn-on' voltage of at least another 8 or 16 so that is 24 or 32. if 32, that would prove that I have 112 volts, but I can see nothing on either neon.

I tried putting an electrolytic 100v 47uF cap across the battery where you usually have a high value cap, and still nothing.

I think I will try a 3 volt battery input and see what the scope says then test a neon there too.

Am I hooking this up wrong?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 08, 2009, 01:27:40 PM

Does your DMM give you the same voltage readings?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 08, 2009, 01:32:08 PM

Hi stprue....
My dmm says 24ACVolts.

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 08, 2009, 01:49:42 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on May 08, 2009, 01:12:36 PM
This is why I am puzzled. I fixed up another one from another high voltage cam circuit today. It doesn't light either.

Most neons light at about 100 volts. But they can be made to light at other voltages also. Maybe the ones you have were made to light at 300 volts for the camera. This is a good source of neons if you want to buy some (all they show are not always in stock).

http://www.allspectrum.com/store/index.php?cPath=29&osCsid=ecb4b87c00ed60c698acdbdb263626d0

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on May 08, 2009, 02:20:09 PM

One thing to bear in mind is that these little neons like ne-2 have very high resistance when "off" and very low resistance when "on". So it is possible to have sufficient voltage, while the neon is non-conducting, to create a plasma in the neon, but it might only last for such a brief time that the flash is invisible to the eye; but because the resistance went to zero for an instant the voltage drops and the neon turns off...

I don't know if this is the explanation, but it's something to consider.

(This is why you don't want to hook a neon up to an unregulated voltage source without a current-limiting resistor. They can fail spectacularly, like a blasting cap, if they are allowed to draw as much current as they want...)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 08, 2009, 02:51:09 PM

Thank you both.
It sounds like the flash camera is not my best source either way.

I just completed my next order with allelectronics. It NEVER fails that within 24 hours my next order begins.

Oh well, I did blow a new led so there is enough to do that as well as to light 8 blazing bright and probably 32 some.

Oh the new order includes 3 of those toroids. Maybe we can get them to sing together eh, stprue?

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 08, 2009, 04:38:45 PM

A touchy circuit...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 08, 2009, 05:17:14 PM

Wow I just realized that the pic are loading but I have to scroll over to the right. Hmmm strange!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 08, 2009, 05:32:07 PM

@Jeanna

Is this what you were talking about when winding back down? This is obviously loose as to see details? I'm still getting both the inside/outside crossovers!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 08, 2009, 05:38:36 PM

@Jeanna

It seems like to me that the only way to not double overlap you need to skip a turn each time! Is this true? I don't get the double overlap this way!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 08, 2009, 06:00:10 PM

Hi stprue,
The pic is nice and clear and close enough. (HOW are you doing that?)

I am not too sure about your question, because what I see there is that some are crossed on the outside but others are not. You can force them to cross in the inside, by forcing the outside to NOT be crossed and to stay in between the same 2 wires until after you have turned and go inside again.

Now, when the wire emerges from inside, you move it over inbetween the next wires . This way the cross is forced to be on the inside.

So,
I keep my thumb on the wire after it has emerged from the inside and carefully keep it from straying by pulling it tight and keeping it tight and when it goes over the last curve on the outside I move my thumb to hold the wire in this place.
Then, I feed it through and when it comes out again I check to make it go between the next 2 wires and hold it with my thumb again.

I can't do any of this in a hurry.
I put on some soothing music stick a piece of chocolate in my mouth and start.
It usually takes about an hour or one cd.

I am not sure if this was your question. If not, please ask again.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on May 08, 2009, 06:00:57 PM

@stprue

Try doing the same thing with the cross on the inside of the toroid , that way the outside of the toroid will have all parallel windings and leaving you more room for turns . also look at my post on page 478.

@jeanna

The only thing that can vibrate a core is it own resonant freq , if its not right is will not vibrate even at very high hz , but with those freq other core could start to look interesting .

Also when you test the coils with a led , is this with the led connected to bridge output of just to the pickup coil . It make a big difference .

I guess it is clear the the base coil is under the influence of the collector coil , i started to have issues with that an i am looking for solutions .

@xee
Great work , lighting the tube ! I wonder what would happen if all 4 legs of the tube where connected , maybe 2 pickup coil ? humm
I find that its not only a voltage issue but also freq with those tubes

@all

You can design and type of winding you like , some design on some toroid work but not on other some will have dead spots but you will not know if you don't check, there so much fun to have winding those toroid , don't be afraid to improve the design , but try to stick the the same toroid or same type , winding more then once is just more fun .

Dead spot can be tested , really quickly you need one wire and a diode bridge .

Take the wire make a single turn coil around the toroid .

Connect the coil to the bridge using the ac legs , connect volt meter to dc side of the bridge.

Turns the jt circuit on , test around the toroid for spots with week or no voltage , compare to high peeks , with those info it should be clear if the design is appropriate for the toroid .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 08, 2009, 06:34:24 PM

Ok so it's like an inside core diameter crossover and then on the outside you thread under loops previously made? I do get the described look with one crossover in the front. Is this right?

Sorry for all the large pics I just want to make sure I'm doing this right ???

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 08, 2009, 07:05:18 PM

Yes, I think that is all right.
You make the change of 'slot' between wires before it turns the corner to even come out from the bottom. That keeps all of it inside.
I really don't know if it matters where it is, but you will run out of room inside if the cross to the next slot happens not on the inside.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 08, 2009, 07:09:47 PM

@ MK1

Quote from: Mk1 on May 08, 2009, 06:00:57 PM
I wonder what would happen if all 4 legs of the tube where connected , maybe 2 pickup coil ?

The two pins or shorted together inside the tube so it does not matter which one is used to supply the voltage.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 08, 2009, 08:03:48 PM

Quote from: stprue on May 08, 2009, 06:34:24 PM
Ok so it's like an inside core diameter crossover and then on the outside you thread under loops previously made? I do get the described look with one crossover in the front. Is this right?

Sorry for all the large pics I just want to make sure I'm doing this right ???

Sorry for the time. I made 2 pics with the xolaptop then photoshoped em with captions.

The first one shows 2 crosses inside and the beginning of the next one coming out. But it is on the other side so I turned around to the camera and

the second shows making the change to the next slot while still underneath and before coming back out.

It is like what you show and the switch to the next slot happens before you make the turn to go back out.
jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 08, 2009, 08:19:23 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on May 08, 2009, 06:00:57 PM

@jeanna

The only thing that can vibrate a core is it own resonant freq , if its not right is will not vibrate even at very high hz , but with those freq other core could start to look interesting .

I don't understand. but maybe I will later.

QuoteAlso when you test the coils with a led , is this with the led connected to bridge output of just to the pickup coil . It make a big difference .

There is no bridge here at all.

I am using the scope for voltage peak to peak and frequency measurements.
I am using the dmm with a 10 ohm resistor in series with the probe for mAmps measurements.

There are 2 different places where I put the LED for the test.
I put it at the ends of the pickup. (so there is no frequency or voltage test here.
I also have it in the Basic Joule Thief Spot.BJTS. And, when it is there, I can check all 3 voltage, frequency and mAmps with the led in that spot.

It makes a difference; and that is why I am testing it there. I want to see and share the difference that it makes.

With the LED running off the pickup there is a bright light and the amps draw changes with the various caps.

Quote
I guess it is clear the the base coil is under the influence of the collector coil , i started to have issues with that an i am looking for solutions .

Yes, and tonight I will be switching the 4T and 3T around to see the difference this makes because this is the very issue here.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 08, 2009, 08:32:18 PM

Quote from: stprue on May 08, 2009, 06:34:24 PM
Ok so it's like an inside core diameter crossover and then on the outside you thread under loops previously made? ??? ???

I think I got it!!

I think what you are doing is you are trying to make the wire switch slots on both sides.
That sounds dumb. I am sorry this is very hard to describe.

Now, Here is what I do.
After the wire has crossed inside and it is in a slot between 2 wires keep it there until you get to OVER the top.
thread it through inside and let it cross there.
at the bottom, turn it back up and stop and look at it . Holding everything really tight except for the end of the wire, push against the wire as though you were going to push it back out again. You will see where the last 'slot' was, because it tries to move.
Now that you know where the last one was, you can skip one wire and go into the next slot and up and around...

Maybe this try will help.
I will try again if it still isn't clear.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 08, 2009, 09:15:32 PM

YES I think I got it. It is late fro me but when I get a chance I will post through Pics' how to wind an Mk1 style coil (I think).

Thank you Jeanna for your patience with my non-stop questions that have probably been answered in the past 500+ pages.

I have been looking at this site for a few years now but only just starting to get into the meat and potato's of building.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on May 08, 2009, 09:17:35 PM

@jeanna

the core like a fine crystal wine glass has a freq , finding the right note (freq)
will make the core vibrate .Ex ; like a 440 tuning fork of A , if you tap it it will give you the note A , now if you have a tunes instrument and play the A note , the Fork will start vibrating on it own .

Ex glass breaking , crystal vibrates good if you find the right note you can break it , if not it will not vibrate and break.

So all i an saying is high freq fine but the right for the core will release more energy since the core will vibrate .

Also my point about the bridge is that if you just connect the led to it you send back energy in the coil , it usually changes the voltage for the coils in a big way . Just something to keep in mind .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on May 08, 2009, 09:23:37 PM

I get interesting effects when I expose my JT toroids to external magnetic fields. Like a DC field from a strong NdBFe magnet, or a strong oscillating field from an externally driven electromagnet. The LED changes color!!

No, not really. ;)
But it does vary in brightness a lot, all the way from off to berry berry bright, so I know varying the saturation level of the flux in the toroid can change the behaviour of the circuit. I think this might be a way of simulating the effects of different permeability materials using a single toroid.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 08, 2009, 09:34:56 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on May 08, 2009, 09:17:35 PM
@jeanna

the core like a fine crystal wine glass has a freq , finding the right note (freq)
will make the core vibrate .Ex ; like a 440 tuning fork of A , if you tap it it will give you the note A , now if you have a tunes instrument and play the A note , the Fork will start vibrating on it own .

Ex glass breaking , crystal vibrates good if you find the right note you can break it , if not it will not vibrate and break.

So all i an saying is high freq fine but the right for the core will release more energy since the core will vibrate .

Also my point about the bridge is that if you just connect the led to it you send back energy in the coil , it usually changes the voltage for the coils in a big way . Just something to keep in mind .

Mark

all this talk of "resonate frequencies" is nice but would it really have an effect with electronics? i mean i can see finding the right frequency for water so you can decrease the amount of power needed to break it up into hydrogen, resonate frequencies i can see for destruction! but to harness free energy?

im not saying its impossible cause i have seen some wierd things but if your looking for resonate frequencies to help you i would say it would need to be with electrolysis to get anything extra. but thats just me.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 08, 2009, 11:01:19 PM

The following is a partial repeat. The first is the repeat from last night. I changed 2 columns to be more consistent.

These should be easier to read.

Reversing the base and collector coils had a strong effect in many places And it also played into something with the base caps.

there were 2 places where the brightness of the leds was so divergent from the pattern, I had to make a note.

I hope there are no mistakes tonight!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 08, 2009, 11:12:35 PM

@MK1
About resonant frequencies.
Don't forget the fact of harmonics.
A resonance of one of these toroids is probably pretty low.
It is probably a dull thud.

I have seen very definite signs of resonance on the scope, but not much benefit from either the brightness of the lights or the volts going up or amps going down.

I am only saying we aren't there yet.
We are still groping in the dark.

Thank you for everything- your discoveries and your assistance, just the same,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 09, 2009, 01:09:03 AM

@ jeanna

I assume Picture 2.png is 3TB,4TC,92T2 and Picture 3.png is 4TB,3TC,92T2. Is that correct? What are the two mA readings given for mAmp LED2 in second chart? Do you still have your 64 uF capacitor off of the Fuji camera board?

EDIT:
It might be interesting to try a 2TB,5TC,92T2 with a 220 ohm base resistor, if it is not too hard to change the turns, and compare that with the results I got with a 2TB,5TC,100TP with a 250 ohm base resistor. Although I suspect the transistor makes a significant difference in performance.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 09, 2009, 01:43:17 AM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on May 08, 2009, 09:34:56 PM
all this talk of "resonate frequencies" is nice but would it really have an effect with electronics? i mean i can see finding the right frequency for water so you can decrease the amount of power needed to break it up into hydrogen, resonate frequencies i can see for destruction! but to harness free energy?

im not saying its impossible cause i have seen some wierd things but if your looking for resonate frequencies to help you i would say it would need to be with electrolysis to get anything extra. but thats just me.

everything have a resonant frequency, electronic circuit make no exception.

you can spread a frequency to a broader frequencies spectrum, but it split its strenght between each frequencies in the range.
no matter how many tuning fork you have, it make no difference.
total frequencies strenght = source strenght - losses.
the maximum energy transfere occure at the resonance point.
but nothing is perfect, losses are unnevitable.
if it was to be something else, we would not be here by now.
the universe would had self destroy long ago.

whatever you do, fixed resonance alone won't give you more out then in.
we need a second power source for that to happen.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 09, 2009, 02:53:05 AM

One wire lights 2 LEDs

EDIT: caution, can blow out both LEDs

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: allcanadian on May 09, 2009, 03:34:15 AM

@theNOP
Quote:
"the maximum energy transfere occure at the resonance point.
but nothing is perfect, losses are unnevitable.
if it was to be something else, we would not be here by now.
the universe would had self destroy long ago.
whatever you do, fixed resonance alone won't give you more out then in.
we need a second power source for that to happen."

I once performed a mechanical resonant experiment whereby I attached a vibrating motor from an electric toothbrush (1.5v) onto the end of a 1/8th inch rod 14 inches long. The rod/vibrating motor was held in my bench vice and the vice attached to a 30" x 60" x 3/4" thick bench top. I tuned both the speed of the vibration motor and the rod length to match the resonant frequency of the bench top(a resonant cavity) at which point I noticed a 1lb weight would jump up to 1/2" off the bench top almost continuously. In fact I calculated there was over 10 lb's of material on my bench moving and jumping about.The so-called experts told me the vibration stored energy at resonance and that this was the cause for these effects, like pushing a swing or the swing of a pendulum. What the experts could not tell me is how a 1.5v input at milliamps could lift all that weight upward while the objects were also producing dampening effects. The work calculated, force times distance displaced upward had little relationship to the 1.5v milliamp input. The simple answer to this puzzle few seem to understand is that the rod oscillated on the horizontal axis and the bench top on the vertical axis therefore the oscillating rod could not perform direct "work" on the table top it could only set it into oscillation at it's natural resonant frequency. This is nothing like the effects quoted by the experts ie... pendulum's and swings, LOL. The only thing I would ask people to consider is the fact that many of the laws of nature we are taught were written with quill pens under oil lamps over 100 years ago. Most of these laws are valid ---- while others are not,as some are based on repitition or making the same mistakes over and over. In any case keep up the good work.
Regards
AC

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 09, 2009, 05:25:13 AM

@stprue

Quote from: stprue on May 08, 2009, 08:46:47 AM
I have a feeling I will need to buy more wire before I start the big toroid. I remember you post a high voltage/high amp diagram w/like 8 to 10 coils, You have started your construction haven't you?

Hello Stprue,
Yes, I have begun construction.
In the photos, you should be able to see a heep of diodes, I put 1 diode per output coil, this when jury rigged with hand pulsing, I can charge up a 1000uF 16v capacitor.

I need to modify each section as seen on my circuit, make up 7 bridge diodes to take their place.
The single diode was there, just to "prove" it works, it does.

I need to add a battery or super cap to the output of the circuit.

What I have'nt done yet is to design and make a timing circuit, to take the place of my fingers making and breaking the circuit.

Then I need to make another part of the timing part to allow the 7 caps to dump their energy into the super caps, this has to incoroperate a "time" constant. If it is set too low, the supercaps will not fill properly, and I have to put blocking reverse diodes to prevent the discharge of the supercaps back into the circuit in case a component goes wonky.

Thanks for the inquires.

EDIT, I re-read your question to me, I miss read your original question, I see you are referring to my circuit I posted wayyyy back, which was made on TinyCad, (its a free program), so my answer should have been "no", I havent begun to make that circuit, but, some of its parts are being incorporated with my present one.
I will get around to making it, but I wanted to see if other ideas I had worked first.
This is the trouble of inventing, I have so many I want to do I get stuck on 0, lol

I should fire-up TinyCad and make a proper circuit of my present work with it.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: petersone on May 09, 2009, 06:50:43 AM

Hi Allcanadian
As you said
I would ask people to consider is the fact that many of the laws of nature we are taught were written with quill pens under oil lamps over 100 years ago. Most of these laws are valid ---- while others are not,as some are based on repitition or making the same mistakes over and over. In any case keep up the good work.
Regards
AC
I like to think of them as rules,and it is the exception that proves the rule.
peter

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 09, 2009, 08:23:55 AM

@petersone,
I agree with your interesting remarks below.

Quote from: petersone on May 09, 2009, 06:50:43 AM
Hi Allcanadian
As you said
I would ask people to consider is the fact that many of the laws of nature we are taught were written with quill pens under oil lamps over 100 years ago. Most of these laws are valid ---- while others are not,as some are based on repetition or making the same mistakes over and over. In any case keep up the good work.
Regards
AC
I like to think of them as rules,and it is the exception that proves the rule.
peter

I might add to this, at times we see hostility by those who deny to accept if a "known" law is discovered to be not quite true, and the person suggesting this is held to ridicule, even if if it is only theory.
I can say I have a relative who is very good at mockery, when I have passed certain thoughts by him in the past. :D

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: petersone on May 09, 2009, 08:30:36 AM

Hi Jim
There are a lot of them about,and not only relatives,I like to stay well clear of them!!
peter

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 09, 2009, 08:31:18 AM

Quote from: xee2 on May 09, 2009, 02:53:05 AM
One wire lights 2 LEDs

Xee

That is cool :)

I am going to play with this idea a little .

Have you tried to see how many LEDs you can light ?

I am guessing that you are using the natural capacitance of the LEDs to power them

If I am right adding more capacitance will allow you to drive more LEDs

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Paul-R on May 09, 2009, 09:51:23 AM

Quote from: xee2 on May 09, 2009, 02:53:05 AM
One wire lights 2 LEDs

What an elegant little circuit. You folks are really very clever.
Paul.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 09, 2009, 10:42:32 AM

@ resonanceman

Quote from: resonanceman on May 09, 2009, 08:31:18 AM
Have you tried to see how many LEDs you can light ?

I have blown 2 LEDs with this. I do not think I will play with it anymore. Please report your results.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 09, 2009, 10:49:48 AM

Quote from: allcanadian on May 09, 2009, 03:34:15 AM
I once performed a mechanical resonant experiment whereby I attached a vibrating motor from an electric toothbrush (1.5v) onto the end of a 1/8th inch rod 14 inches long. The rod/vibrating motor was held in my bench vice and the vice attached to a 30" x 60" x 3/4" thick bench top. I tuned both the speed of the vibration motor and the rod length to match the resonant frequency of the bench top(a resonant cavity) at which point I noticed a 1lb weight would jump up to 1/2" off the bench top almost continuously. In fact I calculated there was over 10 lb's of material on my bench moving and jumping about.The so-called experts told me the vibration stored energy at resonance and that this was the cause for these effects, like pushing a swing or the swing of a pendulum. What the experts could not tell me is how a 1.5v input at milliamps could lift all that weight upward while the objects were also producing dampening effects. The work calculated, force times distance displaced upward had little relationship to the 1.5v milliamp input. The simple answer to this puzzle few seem to understand is that the rod oscillated on the horizontal axis and the bench top on the vertical axis therefore the oscillating rod could not perform direct "work" on the table top it could only set it into oscillation at it's natural resonant frequency. This is nothing like the effects quoted by the experts ie... pendulum's and swings, LOL. The only thing I would ask people to consider is the fact that many of the laws of nature we are taught were written with quill pens under oil lamps over 100 years ago. Most of these laws are valid ---- while others are not,as some are based on repitition or making the same mistakes over and over. In any case keep up the good work.
Regards
AC

you are assuming that 1.5 volts few mA can't do that.
i am not.
neither am i saying that what you have experienced can't be reproduce.
i can do the same thing, not with an electric toothbrush, but i can do it.
the lenght of the rod is not as important as the off center weight.

your's "so-called experts" are probably not far from the truth.
they tell you how, it is energy compression.

beleive me, you can do more with only 1.5volts then you can think of.
for me, the jt is just the proof of such energy compression concept.
your's vibration experiment is an other one.

it is not because something has been observed and studied 100 years ago that it is not still valide today.

what do you understand of those kinetic energies "rules" ?
maybe you have not even learned all of them, as you can't see how they apply to your vibration experiment.
my reasonning to say this is the fact you don't see how a relatively small source of energy can achive what you saw.

but what is all that have to do with "resonance alone not being able to substain itself" ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 09, 2009, 11:30:06 AM

Quote from: petersone on May 09, 2009, 06:50:43 AM
Hi Allcanadian
As you said
I would ask people to consider is the fact that many of the laws of nature we are taught were written with quill pens under oil lamps over 100 years ago. Most of these laws are valid ---- while others are not,as some are based on repitition or making the same mistakes over and over. In any case keep up the good work.
Regards
AC
I like to think of them as rules,and it is the exception that proves the rule.
peter

then even what Tesla has wrote might be mistake repeted over and over...

modern physic laws are based on observed phenomenas.
no laws are perfect tho, part(s) might be missing in some of them.
but if you don't know them, you don't know what is missing and will not be able to say if a laws can be used or not in what you are doing.

ex: Ohm's law, Kirchhoff rules, can not be used when the current is induced by a magnetic field.
does that mean they should be ignored ?

it have nothing with being old or not.
it is about what you understand of those laws and rules.
learn them, know their limits, and used them where they can be applied.

if your goal is to rediscover those phenomenas (laws/rules) by yourself, in case something might have been missed, it is your business not mine.

for me it is simpler to think about what have been teached to me in my physic classes, then see where i should look for the missing part(s).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 09, 2009, 04:06:45 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 09, 2009, 01:09:03 AM
@ jeanna

I assume Picture 2.png is 3TB,4TC,92T2 and Picture 3.png is 4TB,3TC,92T2. Is that correct?

Yes, it is.
I am sorry. I forgot to relabel the lower half of the page. I outclevered myself. I saved many hours by copy/pasting the whole table after I finally got it right... then just changed the numbers inside, but didn't re-label the lower half. - sorry.

QuoteWhat are the two mA readings given for mAmp LED2 in second chart?

This was amazing to see.
I find it easier to stay accurate if I just put the numbers down right off the scope or dmm and analize them later.
I had the 2 wires from the secondary in 2 slots of the breadboard for this part of the test. I could only read mA from the dmm this time, but I flipped the led backwards and saw 19.8mA one way and 21.7mA when it was flipped. So, I made another column and read both ways. At that time I only noticed that the light stayed bright even when the draw from the battery went to 3.4 then 2.7mA and with the flip of the light on these 2 which was no brighter to the eye, the draw was 22.8mA and 22.7mA.
It was later that I saw that the whole column or 2 columns had diverged through the test. The same divergence happened with both base resistor values, but was very strong with the higher base resistor value.

QuoteDo you still have your 64 uF capacitor off of the Fuji camera board?

Yes.
64uF
which one is that? Is that the clear/silver one?

QuoteEDIT:
It might be interesting to try a 2TB,5TC,92T2 with a 220 ohm base resistor, if it is not too hard to change the turns, and compare that with the results I got with a 2TB,5TC,100TP with a 250 ohm base resistor. Although I suspect the transistor makes a significant difference in performance.

I made this with the primary in the Hazens style so it would be easy to unwind a couple of turns. I could easily try this.

Let me check first:
You used a 250r resistor at the base and with no cap across the base resistor got 350v p to p at a 140.1 mA draw.
Also you used a 104 cap and got 195.4v p to p with a 36mA draw from the battery.
Is this what you want to see if I get?

There would be 3 basic differences outside the variations caused by different individual components.

Transistor 3904 vs 3055
220pF cap across secondary leads
doide across secondary leads
edit: and the size of the toroid mine is 1 inch yours 2 inches

I will try.
Maybe you could remove the 220pF cap and diode from the secondary and give me your results also.

It may be worth doing to gain some continuity with our results.

I think the only pF we are using that is the same is the 104 which is 100000pF which is .1uF. I have smaller and you have larger. I also have 22uF and 47uF 100V
but they are cans with polarity so I don't thing they will substitute.

I also have a few 3055's that I could try.-- but I would prefer to put that off til later.

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 09, 2009, 04:10:52 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 09, 2009, 02:53:05 AM
One wire lights 2 LEDs

EDIT: caution, can blow out both LEDs

Thank you xee2!!!

I did thin on my 2 tier ckt and the only response from someone was to tell me that high frequency could do that sort of thing.

thank you
thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 09, 2009, 07:26:28 PM

@ Jeanna and all:

I am winding a new toroid today. (electronics goldmine 1" OD X 1/2" ID Ferrite) I have a question: I have wound 4 turns (bifilar) of 22 ga. wire on the right side from 2:00 to 5:00. I am planning on winding a bunch (to be determined) of 22 ga. magnet wire on the other side. (This is all I have at the moment) I do not want to put an led on the primary side, just like I did in my video "Earth Battery Lights 7 LEDS". I am wondering if, after I put the wires that would normally go to the led into the breadboard power rail (like I did in the video) if I can then also put the secondary wires there too? It seems to me that if I get any higher voltage from the secondary side, I should be able to place this in parallel with the primary power output on the rails and, it should be "in sync" as it is running of the same 3904 transistor. I am trying to get all of the volts out I can for another earth battery experiment. Has anyone done this that we know of and/or can it be done?

I know I need thinner wire for a real secondary but, I figure if I have enough winds, it should step up a little anyway. (Maybe not)

Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 09, 2009, 07:38:15 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on May 09, 2009, 04:06:45 PM
64uF which one is that? Is that the clear/silver one?

No. It was the large black one that charged up to 300 volts.

Quote from: jeanna on May 09, 2009, 04:06:45 PM
I will try.
Maybe you could remove the 220pF cap and diode from the secondary and give me your results also.

Without the diode and 220 pF cap I would not be able to measure the voltage since I do not have a scope. With your scope you do not need the diode and 220 pF cap.

I do not think the size of the toroid maters too much but I do think that the transistor may make a difference.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 09, 2009, 07:53:29 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on May 09, 2009, 04:06:45 PM
but they are cans with polarity so I don't thing they will substitute.

I also have a few 3055's that I could try.-- but I would prefer to put that off til later.

The "cans" will work. Best to put side with stripe to base, but should work either way at the low voltage across the base resistor.

I do not expect you to get exactly the same results.

I think you will get better results with the 100 ohm resistor using the 2N3055 when you get around to trying it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 09, 2009, 07:57:15 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on May 09, 2009, 04:10:52 PM
I did thin on my 2 tier ckt and the only response from someone was to tell me that high frequency could do that sort of thing.

That is true. Nothing really special, but some people do not seem to realize that.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 09, 2009, 08:21:19 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 09, 2009, 07:57:15 PM
@ jeanna

That is true. Nothing really special, but some people do not seem to realize that.

I think it is something special and some people do not realise this.
It is a big clue to what Tesla discovered.

I am really glad you posted it.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 09, 2009, 08:32:01 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on May 09, 2009, 08:21:19 PM
It is a big clue to what Tesla discovered.

I agree. This is a basic part of much of what he was doing. That is why I usually call it "one of Tesla's magic tricks".

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 09, 2009, 08:47:33 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 09, 2009, 07:26:28 PM
... I do not want to put an led on the primary side, just like I did in my video "Earth Battery Lights 7 LEDS".

It is a good idea to put a led in the usual led spot (BJTL) to be sure everything is working and there are no surprises. Then take it out. that is fine.

QuoteI am wondering if, after I put the wires that would normally go to the led into the breadboard power rail (like I did in the video) if I can then also put the secondary wires there too?

The secondary is producing AC, so you won't get it all unless you rectify it.
So, my question always is, why bother with making the ac if you are just going to rectify it.

AC has special properties which we in this modern world (except for theNOP of course) don't know much about.

It is this secondary that will light 30 to 100 lights for little more than the amps cost of 1 and often the amps draw actually goes down when you do this.

OH Bill, I am so glad you are going to do this!

QuoteIt seems to me that if I get any higher voltage from the secondary side, I should be able to place this in parallel with the primary power output on the rails and, it should be "in sync" as it is running of the same 3904 transistor. I am trying to get all of the volts out I can for another earth battery experiment. Has anyone done this that we know of and/or can it be done?

I am not sure, but it sounds a lot like my 2 tier circuit.

QuoteI know I need thinner wire for a real secondary but, I figure if I have enough winds, it should step up a little anyway.

You will be fine. The thinner wire allows for more turns but 20 or 30 is ok to see the concept. Remember it was only 1 turn that lit a led in january. I figured for good brightness it was best to plan about 3 to 5 turns per led when making a secondary.

jeanna

I am trying to post my results from today and the site won't take my post. Hopefully soon.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 09, 2009, 09:08:43 PM

@xee2,
I made another chart and added your chart to it and the other without the change for comparison.
I cannot seem to get the site to do anything with it. It says done, but nothing happens. I will try later.

Basically the results were not anything special.
I killed a bunch of lights. I guess 41mA is too high.
I was drawing 41mA from the battery when I had the led across the secondary wires. The volts were 80v or 64v and freq 33KHz or 55KHz so in a range that has not killed lights recently. .

The only place with the low mA draw was with the 104 and the led at the bjtl spot.
The waveform on that one with the 104 cap is weird and I could see it today with the 2TB,5TC92T setup along with that 104 cap.

It is a camel hump.

Both peaks of a hump pair go to the same height 91-96 volts, but the low of the wave goes to about the middle and returns up to the top again. This is probably why one of my number sets looked off yesterday. The scope was having trouble with it, I guess. I will continue to try to post this this evening.

jeanna

Please note: My two charts were made on different days with different battery voltage or strength. I put this here for reference, but it is only helpful, but too bad I didn't do it all at the same time..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 09, 2009, 09:42:35 PM

@Jeanna,

Quote from: jeanna on May 09, 2009, 09:08:43 PM
I killed a bunch of lights. I guess 41mA is too high.
I was drawing 41mA from the battery when I had the led across the secondary wires. The volts were 80v or 64v and freq 33KHz or 55KHz so in a range that has not killed lights recently. .
jeanna

I think you might have to begin to include a "protection" resistor in your chain of LED's.
I have'nt said anything about this before, but have been waiting for the above results to occur.

You are getting blown LED's because you have been able to increase the current by refining the design of the toroid, with the high voltages.
Before hand, you have been running the LED's with high volts, and hardly any mA's

The protecting resistor is a current limiting device, it will stop the LED's from being over driven and being destroyed, what size/value to use I wouldn't know as the higher voltages and frequencies your LED's are being driven at is a fluxating quantity, so if you want to see bright LED's use a lower value, if you want very good current protection, use a higher value.
I suggest you put a adjustable pot (say 5k ohms) and a (separate DMM set to mA) in series with the LED string, that way you could alter the LED brightness and monitor the current drawn.

The same principle is used to protect Neons from destructing from higher voltages, as was posted a few pages back.

hope this helps

jim

Ps set up a single LED with a DMM set on mA, add a 1K ohm pot, (press the Hold feature to capture the highest result) and take the LED to destruction, note down the reading.
This will give you a basemark on what to keep an eye out for.
I know it will destroy the LED, but better to fail 1 LED than a whole string of them.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 09, 2009, 10:42:49 PM

@ jeanna

::) "I will call this one xee's LED killer" ::)

Yes it is dangerous. As you get higher output voltages this circuit will become more dangerous. I use neons instead of LEDs when voltage is over 100 volts (they can survive several thousand volts for a short time). I try not to use LEDs if voltage is over 40 volts. Be careful not the fry the scope or DMM. But if you are going to light a fluorescent tube you are going to need about 400 volts. BE VERY CAREFUL. Always use your /10 probe.

Your 2TB,5TC,92T2 with 104 cap and 220 resistor yields 91-96 volts @ 41 mA. My 2TB,5TC,100TP with 104 cap and 250 resistor yields 161 volts @ 36 mA. To get over 400 volts I needed to use a 100 ohm resistor and 247 mA with the 104 cap and 288 mA without the cap. I do not think your 2N3904 transistor will survive that.

I suggest you wait until you have some NE2 neons and then try using the 2N3055 transistor - if you want to continue to try to make a circuit to light a fluorescent tube. At this point it looks like your toroid will work but it may need extra turns.

What ever you do - good luck and be careful.

EDIT: I think that more pickup coil turns will reduce the current required, but this is yet to be proven.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 09, 2009, 10:57:17 PM

Quote from: electricme on May 09, 2009, 09:42:35 PM
@Jeanna,

I think you might have to begin to include a "protection" resistor in your chain of LED's.
...

Thanks Jim,
There was not much indication that this would happen.

Take a look at the chart I was finally able to post, (If you are able to get it, that is.)

Look across just one line and you will see that the amps are well within safe range. The volts are lower and also the frequency is lower than many have been lately.

It was only when I actually put a led across the secondary that the mA went as high as it did!!!!

This is so odd. But that is why I made the orange burn color for this chart. ( ;) )

Thanks for your kind help.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 09, 2009, 11:50:23 PM

@All,
We already knew something like this, but I just quantified it a little bit. And maybe found a way to check first to be sure the amps draw wont be too high, or indeed what the amps draw actually IS from a secondary wire. Have a look.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 10, 2009, 12:42:05 AM

Quote from: jeanna on May 09, 2009, 08:47:33 PM
AC has special properties which we in this modern world (except for theNOP of course) don't know much about.

some peoples are even more knowledgeable about this i am.

those properties have been teached to me.
any EE, even simple electriciens, know them.
maybe not all can see how else, then in "conventional" ways, they can be used, but the infos about them are all over, in education book and internet.

please do some search, cross reference your finding, make your own experiences when in doubt.

when you don't see something, on the market for example, it does not mean it does not exist, have been forgot or was never studied.
more often then other, it is because of monetary reasons and/or ease of manufacturing that gouvern what will be available or not.

did you know that Tesla's hv coils have their modern equivalents ?
they are primarly used for testing dielectric materials.

in bref.
what i am trying to tell you is that your perception of what is know and what is not know, is based on your own knowledge.
not on the actual modern science knowledge.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: allcanadian on May 10, 2009, 12:48:59 AM

@theNOP
Quote:
"you are assuming that 1.5 volts few mA can't do that.
i am not.
neither am i saying that what you have experienced can't be reproduce.
i can do the same thing, not with an electric toothbrush, but i can do it.
the lenght of the rod is not as important as the off center weight."

Actually I knew the results before the experiment, I was only proving them for myself. As for the off center weight (the motor), the same results were produced without the motor by striking the rod. The rod length itself (a mass) determines the rate of oscillation which is the cause of the effects, in much the same way as the potential difference induced at the ends of a length of wire is determined by it's wave period as well as the magnitude of the inducing force. In any case I posted this experiment so that others could understand that resonance can happen on many levels and is a major factor in the efficiency of any system.
Regards
AC

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 10, 2009, 01:15:52 AM

@ Allcandain:

Yes, I agree with your example. The length of the rod, its mass (which can also be a function of diameter) determines its frequency exactly like a guitar string. Bridges have been destroyed with resonance. (Tacoma Narrows Bridge) Also, aircraft control surfaces as well. (it is called flutter in aviation) Very powerful additive/cumulative effects at work.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 10, 2009, 01:20:22 AM

Quote from: allcanadian on May 10, 2009, 12:48:59 AM
Actually I knew the results before the experiment, I was only proving them for myself. As for the off center weight (the motor), the same results were produced without the motor by striking the rod. The rod length itself (a mass) determines the rate of oscillation which is the cause of the effects, in much the same way as the potential difference induced at the ends of a length of wire is determined by it's wave period as well as the magnitude of the inducing force. In any case I posted this experiment so that others could understand that resonance can happen on many levels and is a major factor in the efficiency of any system.

look
the off center weight is at play in this case.
the lenght as no other purpose then displacing the proper amount of weight to reach a frequency.

with a rotational movement the lenght is not critical, the off center mass is.

in a swinging movement the lenght is critical to get the proper mass displacement to get a specific frequency.

both ways are a bit different but achive the same thing with the same mass displacement.

i think everyone here know my opignion about frequencies by now. ;D

i feel like we are bloating this tread a bit with this o.t. stuff.
i would be happy to continu this discution in private with you.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 10, 2009, 02:04:48 AM

TheNop:

I'll leave that up to you but I have no problem with this discussion as I believe it is related to our efforts here. Having a good understanding of frequency and resonance and how it relates to the JT circuit is important. Maybe others do not agree.

I see your point about the rotational (unbalanced) motion of the pager motor. (toothbrush, same thing) I had not accounted for that. In that example, one could vary the rpms of the motor and greatly affect the frequency of the motion of the rod. Anyway, this is fascinating stuff.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 10, 2009, 02:48:37 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 10, 2009, 02:04:48 AM
TheNop:

I'll leave that up to you but I have no problem with this discussion as I believe it is related to our efforts here. Having a good understanding of frequency and resonance and how it relates to the JT circuit is important. Maybe others do not agree.

I see your point about the rotational (unbalanced) motion of the pager motor. (toothbrush, same thing) I had not accounted for that. In that example, one could vary the rpms of the motor and greatly affect the frequency of the motion of the rod. Anyway, this is fascinating stuff.

Bill

fascinating indead.

and it can become really complicated to some because the energy is, sometime, not linear in time.
meanning that the energy level at one time is not always the same then at an other time.
ex: 1uA per cycle at 1 Hz = .5uA per cycle at 2Hz
and AC curve, the max energy level is only at the peeks.

this is why we have RMS measurement, to compaire apples with apples.
but there is a problem with RMS, not only is it calculated relative to a frequency, it must also take into account the form of the signal.
there is a cosine used in the calculations of the RMS values so it will only be accurate for a pure AC signal.

if you can't make sense of the above then... :-\

the above does not even include energy compression concepts.
most peoples might understand that charging a capacitor is a way to compress energy.
that a coil's backemf is compressed energy.
they know those effect, but don't know why it is compressed energy.
and, usualy, they will find it even harder to see the same at a much smaller scale combined with frequencies.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 10, 2009, 04:15:56 AM

@all,
This topic of resonance is a very interesting thing. :)

Rife used the same principle to destroy cancer cells in any living tissue, how?
He found out the exact vibratory wave length of the cell concerned (all cells vibrate at different wave lengths) so he tuned his "amplifier" and just sent a wave into the cancer cell.
The cell began to vibrate until it self destruct, easy.

Because no other frequency was involved, all the other tissues were OK.

Back onto the JT and LEDs blowing, I have found a fairly circuit, but it will need a slight modification, it involves placing 2 or more 1N4007 diodes in series which can switch a couple of transistors. I have forwarded it to a member here to take a look at, hopefully it can be used as a research "tool". ;)

@Jeanna,
I managed to take a look at your "orange" chart, I noticed on the next chart you made, you have documented the current drawn to how many LEDs you have placed in the circuit.
How many LEDs did you manage to blow to make this chart. hmm :P

Good work this.

jim

What does produce 1 pulse and can break glass? a 5lb hammer he he. ::)

@all again,
I have medified my set 7 series wound toroid's.
I removed all 1N4004 diodes, made up 7 Bridge diodes and soldered them across each torids output coils.

I have removed the 1000uF 16v caps, replaced all but 1 with different uF and Voltage values.
I'm trying to see which Cap/Volt works the best.
Then as I was going to test, this setup, the batt was flat, batt on charge.
I will test this setup soonest.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 10, 2009, 08:02:29 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on May 08, 2009, 09:17:35 PM
@jeanna

the core like a fine crystal wine glass has a freq , finding the right note (freq)
will make the core vibrate .Ex ; like a 440 tuning fork of A , if you tap it it will give you the note A , now if you have a tunes instrument and play the A note , the Fork will start vibrating on it own .

Ex glass breaking , crystal vibrates good if you find the right note you can break it , if not it will not vibrate and break.

So all i an saying is high freq fine but the right for the core will release more energy since the core will vibrate .

Also my point about the bridge is that if you just connect the led to it you send back energy in the coil , it usually changes the voltage for the coils in a big way . Just something to keep in mind .

Mark

That is a really interesting way to look at a ferrite. Do you think it would be possible to have several cores set up exactly the same way, power one of them and have all the others resonate as well? maybe not it seems like these cores vary from one to another even if they are the same like the 5 for 1$ goldmines!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 10, 2009, 08:06:23 AM

Quote from: TinselKoala on May 08, 2009, 09:23:37 PM
I get interesting effects when I expose my JT toroid's to external magnetic fields. Like a DC field from a strong NdBFe magnet, or a strong oscillating field from an externally driven electromagnet. The LED changes color!!

No, not really. ;)
But it does vary in brightness a lot, all the way from off to berry berry bright, so I know varying the saturation level of the flux in the toroid can change the behaviour of the circuit. I think this might be a way of simulating the effects of different permeability materials using a single toroid.

Yes I think you are right in this statement! Subjecting a mag field will also change amp draw and resonance effects. I think it is worth dabbling with mags in regards to these coils.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 10, 2009, 08:18:04 AM

Quote from: electricme on May 09, 2009, 05:25:13 AM
@stprue

Hello Stprue,
Yes, I have begun construction.
In the photos, you should be able to see a heep of diodes, I put 1 diode per output coil, this when jury rigged with hand pulsing, I can charge up a 1000uF 16v capacitor.

I need to modify each section as seen on my circuit, make up 7 bridge diodes to take their place.
The single diode was there, just to "prove" it works, it does.

I need to add a battery or super cap to the output of the circuit.

What I have'nt done yet is to design and make a timing circuit, to take the place of my fingers making and breaking the circuit.

Then I need to make another part of the timing part to allow the 7 caps to dump their energy into the super caps, this has to incoroperate a "time" constant. If it is set too low, the supercaps will not fill properly, and I have to put blocking reverse diodes to prevent the discharge of the supercaps back into the circuit in case a component goes wonky.

Thanks for the inquires.

EDIT, I re-read your question to me, I miss read your original question, I see you are referring to my circuit I posted wayyyy back, which was made on TinyCad, (its a free program), so my answer should have been "no", I havent begun to make that circuit, but, some of its parts are being incorporated with my present one.
I will get around to making it, but I wanted to see if other ideas I had worked first.
This is the trouble of inventing, I have so many I want to do I get stuck on 0, lol

I should fire-up TinyCad and make a proper circuit of my present work with it.

jim

This is the project on tcad, and I see the obvious differences, I just remembered it looking similar in my head anyway. What are you going to use for your timing circuits? 555 DPMS (DPMS Something like that) or a combination?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 10, 2009, 11:53:40 AM

Quote from: stprue on May 10, 2009, 08:02:29 AM
That is a really interesting way to look at a ferrite. Do you think it would be possible to have several cores set up exactly the same way, power one of them and have all the others resonate as well? maybe not it seems like these cores vary from one to another even if they are the same like the 5 for 1$ goldmines!

that is true, no ferrite will resonnate at the same frequency.
but their resonnating frequency should be relatively close to each other if they are from same batch.

ressonnance have more then one effect, one of them is energy compression.
problem is, you can't tap that energy off without turnning the ressonnance effect off.
trying to use the energy will lower the energy compression effect, if not kill it completly.
if the resonnance is not used for its compression effect, then its other effect can by usefull in a circuit.

if you want to prouve me wrong on this, you will be better trying with Dr Stiffler SEG then trying with a jt.
those 2 are using different ways to basicly get the same end results.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on May 10, 2009, 12:00:19 PM

Here's my latest coil using the Goldmine 5 for $1 toroid. This is untested, I need to get some other stuff done before I start playing with it. I spent about an hour winding this.

3 Turn Base Coil
7 Turn Collector Coil
150 Turn Pickup Coil

Pickup coil is wrapped up then down. From the end of the Collector coil to the start of the Base coil back to the end of the Collector coil.

Stay tuned... Until then, enjoy the pics!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 10, 2009, 12:16:01 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 09, 2009, 08:47:33 PM
It is a good idea to put a led in the usual led spot (BJTL) to be sure everything is working and there are no surprises. Then take it out. that is fine.
The secondary is producing AC, so you won't get it all unless you rectify it.
So, my question always is, why bother with making the ac if you are just going to rectify it.

AC has special properties which we in this modern world (except for theNOP of course) don't know much about.

It is this secondary that will light 30 to 100 lights for little more than the amps cost of 1 and often the amps draw actually goes down when you do this.

OH Bill, I am so glad you are going to do this!

I am not sure, but it sounds a lot like my 2 tier circuit.
You will be fine. The thinner wire allows for more turns but 20 or 30 is ok to see the concept. Remember it was only 1 turn that lit a led in january. I figured for good brightness it was best to plan about 3 to 5 turns per led when making a secondary.

jeanna

I am trying to post my results from today and the site won't take my post. Hopefully soon.

Jeanna:

I want ac as the output like I am using now, so I don't think I want to rectify it. My next goal is to light a flouro tube from my earth battery. It appears I don't have quite enough grunt to fire the Fuji circuit so, I am looking for a higher voltage ac output than my regular JT circuit is giving. Unless I am mistaken, I can use all of the ac and don't want to rectify to eliminate half of it. Of course, I could be wrong....it has happened before, ha ha.

Excellent charts by the way.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 10, 2009, 12:38:56 PM

Comming soon

LM1

:)

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 10, 2009, 12:52:00 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 10, 2009, 12:16:01 PM
I can use all of the ac and don't want to rectify to eliminate half of it.

a diode bridge will rectify the totality of the AC current minus the diodes threshole voltage.
the losses with a bridge is ~1.4volts, whitch is the diode threshole voltage of 2 diodes.

Quote
instead of this:
/\ /\ /\ /\
\/ \/ \/ \/

you will get this:
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\

a single diode:
/\_/\_/\_/\

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 10, 2009, 01:07:51 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on May 10, 2009, 11:53:40 AM
that is true, no ferrite will resonnate at the same frequency.
but their resonnating frequency should be relatively close to each other if they are from same batch.

ressonnance have more then one effect, one of them is energy compression.
problem is, you can't tap that energy off without turnning the ressonnance effect off.
trying to use the energy will lower the energy compression effect, if not kill it completly.
if the resonnance is not used for its compression effect, then its other effect can by usefull in a circuit.

if you want to prouve me wrong on this, you will be better trying with Dr Stiffler SEG then trying with a jt.
those 2 are using different ways to basicly get the same end results.

I have scene Dr. Stiffler's stuff but I haven't kept up with it as it was beyond my understanding at the time. I understand your explination.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 10, 2009, 01:10:20 PM

Quote from: hazens1 on May 10, 2009, 12:00:19 PM
Here's my latest coil using the Goldmine 5 for $1 toroid. This is untested, I need to get some other stuff done before I start playing with it. I spent about an hour winding this.

3 Turn Base Coil
7 Turn Collector Coil
150 Turn Pickup Coil

Pickup coil is wrapped up then down. From the end of the Collector coil to the start of the Base coil back to the end of the Collector coil.

Stay tuned... Until then, enjoy the pics!

Dam.. your coils are sooo nice.

Good job I can't wait to see what that is capable of!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on May 10, 2009, 01:32:53 PM

Quote from: stprue on May 10, 2009, 01:10:20 PM
Dam.. your coils are sooo nice.

Good job I can't wait to see what that is capable of!

Thanks!

It could have been better if I took more time on it. If you look close you can see a couple of spots where I had to skip an overlap on the pickup on the way back because the alignment was getting off.

Oh well ;D if it turns out good, I can spend more time on the next one that will have 30ga in place of the 26ga pickup coil and I should be able to put 250 or so turns on it :o

Just got done mowing the lawn, taking a break now. Got lots more stuff to do, but I might get around to testing today and we'll see just how good it does ;)

Also, this new coil was inspired by Xee2's latest achievements. Thanks for the inspiration Xee2 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 10, 2009, 02:15:04 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on May 10, 2009, 02:48:37 AM
fascinating indeed.

and it can become really complicated to some because the energy is, sometime, not linear in time.
meaning that the energy level at one time is not always the same as at an other time.
ex: 1uA per cycle at 1 Hz = .5uA per cycle at 2Hz

Quoteand AC curve, the max energy level is only at the peeks.

I assume these are 2 different separate things, related but 2 different sentences.

Your formula helped me make some examples

at 220r I got 193uA/Hz. at 95V that = 18uW /1Hz
...
...
I just deleted the rest because I want to double check the decimals.

My assumption is that this provides me a basis for comparison between these coils. It is on a 1Hz basis that I am comparing them

So, if I have 18uw/Hz at 52KHz and 82uw at 35 KHz I can just calculate the watts per Hz and see what I have?

thank you ,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 10, 2009, 02:20:32 PM

I did some tests on NE2 neon bulbs. They seem to light and stay lit at 60 volts with 10 kHz pulses. I also did some tests on the 4 watt fluorescent tube and it seems to need at least 367 volts to light with 10 kHz pulses.

EDIT: Neon voltage may not be correct.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 10, 2009, 02:29:22 PM

@ hazens1

Quote from: hazens1 on May 10, 2009, 01:32:53 PM
It could have been better if I took more time on it. If you look close you can see a couple of spots where I had to skip an overlap on the pickup on the way back because the alignment was getting off.

Nice looking coils. I do not think your errors in winding will have any effect in performance. I am looking forward to your test results.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 10, 2009, 03:24:55 PM

@ jeanna

Watts = amps x volts

Frequency does not effect how many Watts there are. Amps is the number of electrons flowing through wire per second. Thus watts is actually electrons x volts for each second. This number does not change with frequency unless there is something in the circuit that is frequency sensitive. If you divide watts by the number of cycles per second, then you have the number of watts per cycle. For a given number of watts, there will be less watts per cycle as the frequency is increased since the number of cycles per second increases with frequency.

Perhaps this will help. Perhaps it will confuse you. But I hope it will help.

Now to really confuse you. Since it is possible to measure amps and volts over very short periods of time, then they can be measured over small parts of each cycle. When this is done, since the voltage is highest at the peaks of the AC cycle, and since watts is amps times volts, then therefore when the watts are computed over very short periods of time during each cycle there will be more watts at the peaks of the AC cycle than at the zero volt points. But all of these small periods of time are just part of the total amps and volts flowing through wire per second. For AC the effective "average" voltage is the RMS voltage. So for AC the volts in the equation for watts is the RMS voltage.

watts = amps x Vrms

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 10, 2009, 04:11:00 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 10, 2009, 03:24:55 PM

Watts = amps x volts

Frequency does not effect how many Watts there are.

I realized when I read your reply that I had forgotten to finish my formula sentence. What I meant to write was:
193uA / 1Hz x 95V = 18uw /1Hz
The next step would be to multiply this per Hz amount by the number of Hz so, I would then multiply 18uA x 52,600 times per second that this peak occurs. In this example it would give 0.946mA/sec.

It may not be the same as what a rectifier would see or what a dc would show in this same sort of exercise, but it would be a similar basis for comparison. One might even find that the mA draw from the battery has a relationship to this number.

and it IS necessary to add the "/Hz" label. So watts per Hz could should be able to be compared to other watts per Hz. I could do this privately, but even if it is not kosher, it might give someone else a good or better idea.

Thank you for supplying this additional information (and the experimental information as well).

jeanna

edit

QuoteI did some tests on NE2 neon bulbs. They seem to light and stay lit at 60 volts with 10 kHz pulses. I also did some tests on the 4 watt fluorescent tube and it seems to need at least 367 volts to light with 10 kHz pulses.

And did you happen to note the amps draw at that time?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 10, 2009, 04:48:59 PM

Why does 30 gauge always fail me? Less then 5v and lots of effort and time!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 10, 2009, 05:06:30 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 10, 2009, 02:15:04 PM
Quotemeaning that the energy level at one time is not always the same as at an other time.
ex: 1uA per cycle at 1 Hz = .5uA per cycle at 2Hz

and AC curve, the max energy level is only at the peeks.
I assume these are 2 different separate things, related but 2 different sentences.

yes, they are different things, but at same time, closely releated to each other.

the first example is only to show you that there are multiples ways to get to the same energy level.

the other remark about the AC curve is what is more important.
in 1 cycle the current go from the lowest point to the highest points over a period of time.

what i meant by those 2 things is that 2 spikes of 50mA will actualy give you less energy then one cycle of 10mA 60Hz pure AC current.

one is a peek current value, while the other is .707 of 10mA for the real RMS value or is the actual RMS value since our tools are making that calculation for us.

Quote from: jeanna on May 10, 2009, 02:15:04 PM
Your formula helped me make some examples

at 220r I got 193uA/Hz. at 95V that = 18uW
...
...
I just deleted the rest because I want to double check the decimals.

My assumption is that this provides me a basis for comparison between these coils. It is on a 1Hz basis that I am comparing them

So, if I have 18uw/Hz at 52KHz and 82uw at 35 KHz I can just calculate the watts per Hz and see what I have?

no
you can't calculate it like that unless the current and voltage you are measuring are true RMS values.
that is why we have problems with measurements accuracy when we are not measuring DC or 60Hz AC
see xee2 post (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg177512#msg177512)

where the frequency help is that inductions and capacitive coupling are all about currents changes in a peroid of time.
the more the currents changes rapidly in a period of time, the more energy is transfered.

but there are limitations..., as with everything in this world...
you will be limited by the current reaction time.
that current reaction time is caused by the resistance, or impendance, the current is fighting against.

it is up to you to use that fact to your advantage.
you might want to deliberately limit the current this way.

or you can try to find ways to minimize that limit.
by finding how you can minimize the resistance.
or how to give more current flow time, so it can reach it maximum before switching it off.

i often said thing are complicated.
they are in fact a lots of simple things that are interacting with each other in ways that can become somewhat complicate.
there are as many possibilities that there are limitations.
the art is to work around them or at least minimize them for the specific application you are trying to develop.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on May 10, 2009, 05:10:47 PM

Found some new toys at Menards :)

I found the smallest CFL ever. 1 watt ??? Sells for $5 as a night light. Box says 1.6 watt, but the bulb seems to be the same as the replacement 1 watt CFL garden lights that I saw there also. Not much in electronics in this sucker. No toroid either.

I found a Solar 50 LED rope light $12 that runs off a single 600mah AA battery. Looks like they are using the solar panel as double duty (charging and light sensing) as there is no photocell to detect dark. Just cover up the solar cell and it lights up. Amazing, 50 leds on a single AA battery and solar in a neat little package that charges itself. I was going to invent this, but the Chinese already beat me to it :D :D :D But there is always room for improvement ;)

Enjoy the pics. I'll be playing around with these in the near future.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on May 10, 2009, 05:21:29 PM

@stprue

Nice looking toroid , try something for me , i think there is a problem with the connection to the bread board , i have one just like yours and i usually need need to use the clipper cable between the pickup coil and rectifier to get good connection, or i solder a 22 gauge wire at the end so i could connect it properly to the board.

Mark

Also have you tested the toroid in other configuration ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 10, 2009, 05:21:47 PM

This was a test to try to find minimum voltage and current needed to light fluorescent tube. The tube is very dim at 137 mA.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 10, 2009, 05:34:42 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on May 10, 2009, 05:21:29 PM
@stprue

Nice looking toroid , try something for me , i think there is a problem with the connection to the bread board , i have one just like yours and i usually need need to use the clipper cable between the pickup coil and rectifier to get good connection, or i solder a 22 gauge wire at the end so i could connect it properly to the board.

Mark

Also have you tested the toroid in other configuration ?

Than you Mark I will try this later tonight or tomorrow. I think I will re-scrape and then try your suggestions. I may have wound it wrong also, it is difficult to describe how to wind this coil. When I figure it out I will post it to you with pics for your approval and then post to the forum.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 10, 2009, 06:00:06 PM

Quote from: hazens1 on May 10, 2009, 12:00:19 PM
Here's my latest coil using the Goldmine 5 for $1 toroid. This is untested, I need to get some other stuff done before I start playing with it. I spent about an hour winding this.

3 Turn Base Coil
7 Turn Collector Coil
150 Turn Pickup Coil

Pickup coil is wrapped up then down. From the end of the Collector coil to the start of the Base coil back to the end of the Collector coil.

Stay tuned... Until then, enjoy the pics!

I just noticed This is Mk style!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 10, 2009, 06:24:24 PM

@Hazens,
There is probably a little piece of clear plastic preventing the battery from discharging while it is in the shipping box.
This allows the solar panel to directly light the light when the sun is out but it stays dark at night!.

I just went through this with a friend.

Xee.
Thank you for that information.
According to my calculations which may only be internally consistent and not verifiable according to the usual tests and pure sine waves which we are not making...

Your fluoro with cap is using
22.1mw per hour
and the one without the cap which is dimmer is using
14.36mw/hr

I should try lighting a fluoro.

Here is an example of the calculations I am using. This is on 4 circuits without cap. I decided not to confound this with the cap effect.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 10, 2009, 06:47:23 PM

@ Jeanna

Not sure if you saw my recent failure here is a different idea. On the inside is it overlapping over the top of the previous overlap as well as the bottom wire? Here are the pics.

I am probably more annoyed at my self then you are!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on May 10, 2009, 06:51:34 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 10, 2009, 06:24:24 PM
@Hazens,
There is probably a little piece of clear plastic preventing the battery from discharging while it is in the shipping box.
This allows the solar panel to directly light the light when the sun is out but it stays dark at night!.

jeanna

No, I checked the circuit and there is no photocell in it at all. There was no plastic piece preventing the battery from discharging since this kit has it's own on/off switch. I opened in up, flipped the switch and it turned on after I covered the solar panel. I looked for a photocell and did not see one, so I opened it up to take a closer look. I'm guessing the circuit senses the voltage from the solar panel reaches a certain lower limit or less than X volts which would happen if it got dark and it triggers the batteries to run the LEDs. There is a microchip in there, I'm going to look up what it is when I get a chance.

On another note. I was testing my new toroid and SUCCESS 8)

I was able to light a 6 inch, 4 watt florescent tube! I'll post a diagram with details later, but here are some pics. I was able to light it before and after the bridge rectifier. I capped the rectified output to get a votage reading and this new toroid is hitting 404 volts from a 1.2 volt input. Amazing that the little 1 inch Goldmine toroid is capable of this :o

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 10, 2009, 06:54:22 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on May 10, 2009, 05:21:29 PM
@stprue

Nice looking toroid , try something for me , i think there is a problem with the connection to the bread board , i have one just like yours and i usually need need to use the clipper cable between the pickup coil and rectifier to get good connection, or i solder a 22 gauge wire at the end so i could connect it properly to the board.

Mark

Also have you tested the toroid in other configuration ?

Mark can you take a look at the pic below, I have made all winding on the inside instead of the out! Is this what you were talking about. Also in the above coil I actually stop via U-Turn on the inside and start making my back windings! Maybe this is why it is not working properly?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 10, 2009, 07:02:25 PM

@ jenna
when you got the best results with the smaller and larger windings you had the smaller attatched to the base of the transistor right?

@ all

From what i have seen of this curcuit and correct me if im wrong many thing it is AC. my understanding is to be AC you need to rotate from forwards to backwards or + to -. on the other hand DC or a continuous unchanging current cannot possibly do this right? i mean how could you possibly transfer currents using DC from coil to coil?

My favorite teacher once showed be the experiment that changed my life and views as it is what holds me to the belief that i can produce a unfathomable amount of energy from a power supply in a cell phone. he took a regular copper water pipe and dropped a magnet down it. this magnet floated all the way down it had soo much resistance in eddy currents it litterally suspended itself in the air! now in order to produce the eddy currents needed to suspend itself it had to move, so it moved slowly, very very slowly. when attached to a load IE a 40 watt florecent it actually lit the bulb and dropped at a normal rate.

what we are working with here is pulsed DC as shown in the scope shots i have seen posted. i also know its dc by the curcuit layout. the coils are crossed or inverted which means that current can flow down them in their current setup at the same time and produce a magnetic current in the same direction by both. niether coil is opposing the other thus cannot create the negative needed for AC and there is no magnetic collapse happening here either as it is allowed to freely leave in the coil through the led.
now the magnetic field in itself is not strong enough itself to light the led and neither is the battery but when you have a 1.5v battery with a 1.5v magnetic current now you have 3 which is good enough. it travels at a high frequency through the led which we all know from teslas work has remarkable effects of stimulating lights and quite possibly leds with less work than they are rated for. the high frequency travels on the outside of the wires not internally like regular current thus it meets less friction and thus less resistance allowing it to perpetuate the high frequency if tapped right. what it also does is eliminate losses that would normally be incurred when trying to light a florecent or led because now it does not have to travel through a mercury gas no, instead it travels on the outside of the bulb like static electricity normally does to stimulate the phosphors directly thus again reducing friction or resistance and thus eliminating most of the dirty work.

in short what we have here is a magnetic capacitor of sorts allowing for parellel power supplies to be added and generate a larger voltage which can be used to do work. or you could bypass the led and just go for some good high voltage high frequency current :)

ME

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 10, 2009, 07:03:21 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on May 10, 2009, 06:24:24 PM
Your fluoro with cap is using
22.1mw per hour

No. watts = amps x volts = 0.137 x 1.5 = 0.2055 watts = 206 mW
In one hour the energy used will be = watts X hours = 0.205 Watt-hours = 205 mW-hr

A typical AA battert has 1000 mA-hr at 1.5 volts = 1500 mW-hr
therefore, AA battery should light fluorescent bulb for 1500/205 = 7.3 hours

Or you could just divide 1000 ma-hr by 137 ma = 7.3 hours since the voltage is always the same.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 10, 2009, 07:17:05 PM

@ hazens1

Quote from: hazens1 on May 10, 2009, 06:51:34 PM
On another note. I was testing my new toroid and SUCCESS 8)

Excellent. Now there is no reason why ohers can not do the same thing since all of your parts are available from Goldmine.

Thanks for the update.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 10, 2009, 07:30:20 PM

Quote from: stprue on May 10, 2009, 06:47:23 PM
On the inside is it overlapping over the top of the previous overlap as well as the bottom wire? Here are the pics.

I am probably more annoyed at my self then you are!

that looks great.
Previous overlap? I have never looked as closely as this. I just turn it at the bottom and make it go into the next slot and move on.
I only see one cross at a time in your pic.

edit:
wait, I do see 2 crosses. How many times are you going over this same spot?

Just make sure that you are consistent and you will be able to change something in a meaningful way.

It looks really good to me.
Oh, nevermind the failures. I toss them into a box. If I need the toroid for a new one I know where to look.

As a matter of fact, I re-tested the high permeability and the bad blue last night. No there was nothing I missed before. They are both terrible.
Maybe they are christmas tree ornaments...

;)
jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 10, 2009, 10:01:05 PM

is that a 555 timer setup on the led rope lights? the joule thief is not a curcuit you see in electronics usually but a 555 setup would be the same essentially. well, the draw is a bit higher from what i gather but still better than no controller at all!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 10, 2009, 10:17:46 PM

i do not recall if i got a link from this site to the torroids i seen or not, there are however some uniquely wound torroids one such i believe was called the morbious. this one used a plastic toy doghnut and nails, the nails held the wire in place because the way the coil was wound was over the outer edge into the torroid at a angle wich ran the wire nearly straight through the center circle. there was another where they actually braided wire around the torroid. if i happen to see them again i will post links.

different windings definately can have an effect on the performance.

on a side note with this frequency talk what is it you hope or think will happen with the resonate frequencies? i forsee several options, one you find the resonate frequency to shatter the torroid. two you find one that might cause the frequency to continuously climb, three and one that i would love to see, you find the frequency that generates a ever growing voltage spike reguardless of input. i would relate that to a rogue wave in the fact that waves keep combining until they become one big wave. and sadly, as partially pointed out before i dont think your going to be able to tap a resonate frequency as electricity directly and get any benifit. i could see if you found the right frequency for a electric motor that continiously increases spede until self destruction and perhaps use that as a physical generator type output.

im currious though what do you expect or think will happen with the "right" frequency?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 10, 2009, 10:41:50 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 10, 2009, 07:03:21 PM
@ jeanna

No. watts = amps x volts = 0.137 x 1.5 = 0.2055 watts = 206 mW
In one hour the energy used will be = watts X hours = 0.205 Watt-hours = 205 mW-hr.

@xee,

Huh?

V x A = W
that is of course what I was using to get this formula calculation.

but 1.5V??

How about 367V x 0.137A = 50.28 W

I wonder how long this will run?
Would you care to use the experimental approach and time it?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 10, 2009, 11:01:34 PM

@ArcticKnight

Quote@ jeanna
when you got the best results with the smaller and larger windings you had the smaller attached to the base of the transistor right?

@AK,

I will quickly answer what I think you are asking but read on.
I got higher volts when the fewer turns were at the base.

That is the interesting question.
What makes it better?
Is the higher frequency that Tesla said he needed to start with the thing I need to push up?
He was using a spark gap where we get to use a switching transistor, so we don't need to bother with all those details about the sparks and keeping things clean or at the right angle. He had a lot to overcome just to get the high frequency he was looking for.

He said he used a generator to produce the juice for the sparks which he made according a machine that Herz had used. I don't know about that machine but, I trust he did.

So, his plan was to drive the frequency really high and then put it into a transformer with hundreds of turns of very fine wire. This put the voltage up. I can see that the frequency lowered as he got the voltage up. My guess is that he had to drive the frequency high in the first step so there was room for it to come down as he made the voltage rise.

That is where I am.

I was wondering if I could calculate this in a reproducible manner and therefore have a 'tag' for want of a better tern, to identify its usefulness. (I am trying to avoid words like potential and power here because they have already been taken.)

So you might see there is no easy answer here about which is better.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 10, 2009, 11:17:21 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 10, 2009, 07:03:21 PM
A typical AA battert has 1000 mA-hr at 1.5 volts = 1500 mW-hr
therefore, AA battery should light fluorescent bulb for 1500/205 = 7.3 hours

Or you could just divide 1000 ma-hr by 137 ma = 7.3 hours since the voltage is always the same.

it is a bit more complicated then this.
don't forget that the voltage will drop over time.
the delivered watts is not constant during the discharge of the battery.

the battery rating is given in amp/hour and your 137 mA, if it is a measurement values, is in amp/second

Quote from: Artic_Knight on May 10, 2009, 10:01:05 PM
is that a 555 timer setup on the led rope lights? the joule thief is not a curcuit you see in electronics usually but a 555 setup would be the same essentially. well, the draw is a bit higher from what i gather but still better than no controller at all!

probably not.

one of the function of that chip is to switch from charging the battery and lightning the leds.

whithout knowing the voltage feeding the led, it is hard to tell if it is also incorporating a dc to dc converter(jt like voltage converter) or not.
i doubt it does.
the leds are probably low voltage, low current type.

Quote from: Artic_Knight on May 10, 2009, 10:17:46 PM
i do not recall if i got a link from this site to the torroids i seen or not, there are however some uniquely wound torroids one such i believe was called the morbious. this one used a plastic toy doghnut and nails, the nails held the wire in place because the way the coil was wound was over the outer edge into the torroid at a angle wich ran the wire nearly straight through the center circle. there was another where they actually braided wire around the torroid. if i happen to see them again i will post links.

different windings definately can have an effect on the performance.

Rodin's coil

Quote from: Artic_Knight on May 10, 2009, 10:17:46 PM
on a side note with this frequency talk what is it you hope or think will happen with the resonate frequencies?

...

im currious though what do you expect or think will happen with the "right" frequency?

good questions.

what is the "right" frequency related too and how does it help you with what you are trying to achive.
what will you use the resonnance for.

personaly, the right frequency, for the jt, is the one providing me the most energy transfer with the materials i am using.

and i use resonnance to get frequencies i want/need or to filter them.

E=MC^ conversion is not what i am looking for with the jt.
i don't think 1 frequency alone can provide such conversions.

and just wild speculation.
even multiple frequencies won't do, at least not at the energies levels concentration that are normally occuring in nature.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 10, 2009, 11:43:49 PM

@ jeanna

I hope you had a happy Mother's Day.

Quote from: jeanna on May 10, 2009, 10:41:50 PM
How about 367V x 0.137A = 50.28 W

The current is measuring the drain from the battery which is about 1.5 volts. The current through the tube is much lower and it would require putting an ampmeter in series with the tube to measure it. You can't take the voltage from one spot and the current from another.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 11, 2009, 12:24:07 AM

Quote from: xee2 on May 10, 2009, 11:43:49 PM
@ jeanna

I hope you had a happy Mother's Day.

Thank you, my son is proposing to his sweetheart sometime this weekend. A sweet thought. And the sky was blue... a beautiful day.

QuoteYou can't take the voltage from one spot and the current from another.

I was afraid that might be true. so, the amps draw is only good for total amps draw measurement.

If I put a 10r resistor in series with my dmm set to volts and then measured between the secondary wires, would I get anything meaningful?
I could perform ohms law on it but it isn't dc at that point.

I think it would be as meaningless as this is.

thank you,

jeanna

edit,
I just want to add that there IS a relationship between the battery drain and what is happening at the secondary. It might be possible to identify what it is.

Yesterday I made a list that definitely showed how the amps draw decreases as MORE load is put on the secondary. I can't say the limit of that, but shorting those wires gave the highest cost to the battery and (how many? I think it was) 9 leds took the least.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 11, 2009, 01:05:41 AM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on May 11, 2009, 12:24:07 AM
If I put a 10r resistor in series with my dmm set to volts and then measured between the secondary wires, would I get anything meaningful?

It would give you the amps (from I = E/R) going through the 10 ohm resistor and the voltage between the pickup coil leads from which you could calculate the watts being generated in the resistor using the formula: watts = volts squared divided by resistance. This wold be how much power the circuit is delivering to a 10 ohm resistive load. If you also measured the voltage across a 10 ohm resistor in series with the battery you can calculate the power being used from the battery by using the same equation. Dividing the power delivered to the load by the power being used from the battery gives the efficiency of the circuit. But, remember to measure the battery current with the 10 ohm load on the pickup coil leads since, as you have noted, the current drain on battery is dependent on the load on the pickup coil.

At this point I do not think this maters as much as how bright the tube gets and how much current is used from battery.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 11, 2009, 02:27:39 PM

@xee and any others who are interested.

I have decided that I can justify using the amps draw from the battery to calculate an approximate watts figure or at least a sort-of output figure. The purpose is to describe quantitatively what is happening at the secondary.

1- The amps draw is a time based term. It means joules per sec.

2- the frequency of the pulses is by definition a time based term. 52KHz means 52 thousand times per second.

3- If I divide the number of amps being drawn through the system on a per second basis by the number of pulses per second, then I should be seeing the number of amps per pulse.

4- There is an upper limit to the amps being drawn from the battery into the jt system and the amps draw figure defines that limit. While computations based on this amps draw value may not be strictly correct, I believe that as long as all other things are equal (things like caps or leds being equal and in the same places) this computation of amps per pulse is correct enough to use.

So, I plan to use it.

Unfortunately I am dyslexic and decimals very long strings of zeros give me trouble. I may have made a mistake in yesterday's calc's which I have not found, but I like the method. I believe it is valid and useful.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 11, 2009, 03:33:49 PM

@ Jeanna:

This is a response I received to my EB light 7 leds video. This fellow says he is an electrical engineer. It may help:

"Hey Bill, I mentioned to you how to measure the maximum power from any battery source and determine it's output impedance. For a JT circuit you are now working with a discharging inductor, so it's a different story. An ideal discharging inductor has a theoretical output impedance of infinity. That means it doesn't matter what value of resistive load you connect to it, the inductor will raise it's output voltage enough to keep the current flowing at it's initial rate.You can use that knowledge to make a very easy power output calculation for the JT. Just connect a bigish cap and a resistor in parallel as the load for the JT circuit. The pulsing inductor will charge the cap and the resistor will drain the cap. It will stabilize at a voltage were the average power out from the JT inductor will be dissipated in the resistor. So your JT output power is then V(cap)-squared/R.Suppose you measure 10 volts when you use a 1K resistor. If you change the resistor to 2K then the cap voltage will stabilize at a higher voltage. When you do the calculation again, you should measure the same power. As long as the cap is big enough it will smooth out the inductor pulses. If you multiply R x C, you get units of seconds, the time constant. As long as the time constant is 10x longer than the JT pulse period you are fine, the voltage across the cap will be near DC.The JT circuit has a fixed output power, independent of the load. That's in contrast to a battery power source were the output power from the battery is dependent on the type of load. So if you make the power calculation using the RC load, then reconnect an LED configuration, you will know how much power the LEDs are dissipating."

Let me know what you think,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 11, 2009, 04:12:23 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 11, 2009, 03:33:49 PM
@ Jeanna:

This is a response I received to my EB light 7 leds video. This fellow says he is an electrical engineer. It may help:

"Hey Bill,

...
As long as the time constant is 10x longer than the JT pulse period you are fine, the voltage across the cap will be near DC.The JT circuit has a fixed output power, independent of the load.

Let me know what you think,

Bill

Thanks Bill,

It looks good.
I wonder if he meant to say RC instead of DC. He must have.

I will jot this down and keep it.

He is only talking volts here. I know the R C time constant bit is coulombs in the cap which translate to joules per sec so end up sounding like amps.
Do you think he would answer you about DC or RC? Would you please ask him?

I particularly like the last sentence that I quoted above.

It makes me think of our house power, so I think this is right, I mean he isn't dising you/us. Our house power is all parallel as Tesla described in that patent on the circuit connections. So, to give the same directions to you for use on the joule thief seems right to me.

Thanks a lot,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 11, 2009, 04:27:43 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 11, 2009, 04:12:23 PM
I wonder if he meant to say RC instead of DC. He must have.

he really meant DC.
the voltage at the cap and resistance across the cap will almost be DC.
it will be DC with ripples on top of the DC.

W = V * I
W = (V * V) / R
W = (I * I) * R

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 11, 2009, 05:59:10 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on May 11, 2009, 04:27:43 PM
he really meant DC.
...
W = (I * I) * R

DC as in direct current?
The battery?

I guess it won't help me find an easy reliable way to calculate the amps at the secondary.

Thanks.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 11, 2009, 06:04:00 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 11, 2009, 05:59:10 PM
DC as in direct current?
The battery?

yes

Quote from: jeanna on May 11, 2009, 05:59:10 PM
I guess it won't help me find an easy reliable way to calculate the amps at the secondary.

wrong

put a cap with a resistance across it then connect the pickup coil to the cap.

measure the voltage of the cap.
Watt = (V * V) / R

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 11, 2009, 06:12:16 PM

@ Jeanna:

Yes, I agree with TheNOP. This was supposed to be an easy way to test power from a JT circuit according to the guy who posted it on my vid page. As NOP said, with the cap and resistor in parallel hooked up to what would normally be ac output, should show up as "mostly" dc. I think I understand this now even though I did not when this fellow posted it as a video response. I learn something new every day here, sometimes even 2 things, ha ha. (That's about my limit)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 11, 2009, 07:10:44 PM

Hi Bill NOP etc,
Thanks for the help.

I find this a bit like disecting a cadaver. I want to see what is happening with this thing when it is alive (the scope shows a lot of activity) and the best the experts can give me is a frozen section of a cadaver.

You do realize that after the cap is full I then need to recalculate using that RC formula and ohms law to extrapolate how much activity must have been going on to allow the cap to fill under those conditions.

There are a lot of assumptions going on here. I think there is a less convoluted method. At lease, now, I am pretty sure this is all that is out there and I haven't missed it.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 11, 2009, 07:29:41 PM

@Mk1

I just re-read pg 478 and according to your turn ratios say 20 up 16 down you must be skipping some is this right?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 11, 2009, 07:32:07 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 11, 2009, 07:10:44 PM
I find this a bit like disecting a cadaver. I want to see what is happening with this thing when it is alive (the scope shows a lot of activity) and the best the experts can give me is a frozen section of a cadaver.

You do realize that after the cap is full I then need to recalculate using that RC formula and ohms law to extrapolate how much activity must have been going on to allow the cap to fill under those conditions.

There are a lot of assumptions going on here. I think there is a less convoluted method. At lease, now, I am pretty sure this is all that is out there and I haven't missed it.

one thing that might not be obvious is that the resistance can be replaced with led(s)

a resistance in parallel with a cap is a filter, when in parallel to the source.
since the pickup coil is connected in parallel to the cap and the resistance, it is a filter, not a RC circuit.

you, we, want RMS values whenever possible.
RMS values = DC values

the above pickup|cap|resistance trick can provide us with fairly accurate RMS measurements.

to get the watts or current you only need to know the voltage and the resistance.
W = (V * V) / R
I = V / R

i just found a good link for you all.
Ohm's formulas (http://www.the12volt.com/ohm/ohmslaw.asp)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 11, 2009, 07:34:02 PM

If this is right I think I finally have it ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 11, 2009, 09:29:06 PM

Quote from: stprue on May 11, 2009, 07:34:02 PM
If this is right I think I finally have it ;D

I think you have it!
hooray!

let-r-rip!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 11, 2009, 11:49:39 PM

jenna

i would say the high frequency is best as far as my goals are concerned. that would put the large coil on base then im assuming?

with the circuit commonly used to light a florecent on this forum the high frequency would be fine. the high frequency generated by the joule thief would remain high frequency when being stepped up in a secondary transformer.

if you will reference the tesla patent on high frequency generator that i posted he does this very thing, altho he does have to use a medium of sorts to produce the frequency just as we use the joule thief he then takes that frequency and runs this through a tesla coil of sorts. as a matter of fact one could say he simply had in that patent a high frequency tesla coil as the secondary step up transformer could have its secondary winding grounded and the other suspended in air to produce the same results.

thats all a tesla coil is, a circuit to control the flow and a step up transformer that has one end of a secondary winding grounded with the other being a aerial.

one of the many experiments i plan to test is a joule thief powering a second step up transformer utilized as a tesla coil just to see the difference from a regular tesla coil. my prediction is we will get more sparks and less noise!

a unique fact of high frequency current that i think has been stated before is that the thin wires are all thats necessary to transport it as it travels on the outside of the wire. also since it travels on the outside of the wire i anticipate less resistance.

something to note there is a magnetic device of sorts that came between the vacuum tube and transistor. its not well noted but its a magnetic amplifier. they saturate the core with dc and introduce ac once the core has been saturated and this keeps losses down to about 0. interesting fact. with that circuit in mind it shows that a saturated core is a happy core.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 12, 2009, 12:08:41 AM

ArticKnight and Jeanna:

I just got my electronics goldmine "Specials" pages in the mail today and i see they have trigger coils at a very low price. (300+ volts) Since I am a long time fan of the Fuji circuit I was wondering if, as Fuji did, we could use the trigger coil after our JT base coil, which would replace the transformer in that circuit. My goal also, now, is to light some tubes from my earth battery and all I need are volts to do so. I may get some of these (less than $1 ea.) and give it a go. My uneducated guess is that, depending what is fed into them will reflect in the out put. What do you guys (no offense Jeanna) think?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 12, 2009, 12:50:25 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 12, 2009, 12:08:41 AM

I just got my electronics goldmine "Specials" pages in the mail today and i see they have trigger coils at a very low price. (300+ volts) Since I am a long time fan of the Fuji circuit I was wondering if, as Fuji did, we could use the trigger coil after our JT base coil...
What do you guys ... think?

Bill

Give it a try.
I need to look it up to see how a trigger coil works. It sounds good to me 300volts. And it isn't just a coil or transformer with a high secondary count? It would certainly be convenient to be able to buy those things.

From the goldmine, I bought 3/$1 high voltage board that was intended for a camera circuit. It is just a designer's circuit, I guess... It has a neon and silver cap transistor and relay and the nice transformer. I have put off using, however, because I ... um, well, I am just that way.

I think you will be able to run a fluoro from the fuji ckt in your front yard, actually.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 12, 2009, 01:23:40 AM

@ Jeanna:

I have tried the Fuji circuit on the EB 2 times now and.....nothing. I don't think I have high enough mA's to fire that circuit. Remember, that has a pretty good size transformer before the trigger coil. That is what is leading me to think of this possible alternative method. The trigger coil is so small ( you have seen them) that I think it would take not a lot to get them working and, since you guys are already getting some good juice out of the JT I thought this might be a good match.

But, you are correct, only one way to know and that is to try it. Try it I will. Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 12, 2009, 01:39:31 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 12, 2009, 01:23:40 AM
@ Jeanna:

I have tried the Fuji circuit on the EB 2 times now and.....nothing. ...

But, you are correct, only one way to know and that is to try it. Try it I will. Thanks.

Bill

I am wondering about the cap you have in the battery rail. I remember it was that supercap in parallel with your led that was the first to light last year.
Maybe all you need for the fuji to start is the cap??

Remember xee said yesterday the fluoro tube won't light without the diode and cap by the light. I kindof remember the one that lights but dimly had no cap at the battery rail. He said, I think, the cap in the rail took more juice from the battery but the light was stable and bright. Without the battery rail cap it would light but was dim. Without the rail cap the amps draw was lower too, so it all makes sense.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on May 12, 2009, 01:46:46 AM

I heard it in a 'round-a-bout way that you can light a florescent tube with high voltage dc, however, the mercury vapor in the tube will tend to migrate to one end.

The prudent thing to do is have consistent AC on these, or, switch the polarity of the current every now and then.

This will increase tube life... which I still fail to see why these things burn out, theoretically, they shouldn't, if they're sealed and made well, they should last as long as LED's or longer.

Perhaps they're design is a failure, but their principle of operation is a success?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 12, 2009, 02:03:46 AM

@ Jadaro:

My understanding, such as it is at this moment, is that the output from the JT circuit is AC. Even if it is pulsed DC, which is still up to some debate, the trigger coil I am speaking of "should" output real AC. (maybe not?)

@ Jeanna:

Yes, I remember that. all of my recent supercap applications with the earth battery, they are in parallel on the input side of the breadboard from the EB. so, are you saying that maybe I should stick one of the supercaps after the JT and before it goes out to when I try to run the Fuji circuit? If my understanding of what you are saying is correct, then yes, I have not tried this. I never thought of that. i was basically just trying to smoothe out the input form the EB which I am still not sure is DC or pulsed DC. so, now I can try the Fuji off the EB with a supercap after the JT and before the Fuji. This is a great idea to try! (If I have this correct) Thank you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 12, 2009, 02:26:04 AM

@all,
My PC came down with a major Virus and Trojan attacks (3) and BackDoor Bots.
So I've been off air a couple of days, hopefully it is all OK now.

I was using Firefox, did a search for overunity, and when I clicked on the link, I was re-directed to a "naughty" web site, before I could get out, it had downloaded infected my computer. The PC began to go real slooooow, Anyway it's all fixed up, and thats the main thing.

OK, just to revisit resonnance for a second only, I have a 50Hz mechanical/electrical meter, there are a number of "reeds" which vibrate to a fixed set of frequencies, as the hz go either side of the 50hz, so the corresponding "reed" vibrates up and down.

Photo 0722.jpg = 50Hz vibrating reed mechanical meter.

Photo 0716.jpg = Yesterdays sunset as I was heading back home.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 12, 2009, 03:58:09 AM

@stprue,
Thanks for your interest in what I am doing.

I have made a crt of the 1st experiment I did with my 7 toroid primaries in series.
There is no 555 timing of the pulses to the transistor, I just tapped the Pos wire which is in series between the battery and the 1st toroid. The Bat Neg or earth is connected to the last Toroid primary wire end.

All LEDs will not light when you connect the circuit, they only go ON only when the circuit is broken, the collapsing magnetic fields energise the separate secondaries which charge the capacitors and light the LEDs.

Primary consists of about 10 turns, put a few more on if you want to.
Secondaries are of 14, put a few more on if you want to.
If you have a capacitor rating of 2.2uF at 50v the LED lights on and off very fast
If the capacitor is rated at 1000uF at 16 volts, it will not light as many more pulses are required to fill the cap and light the LED.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 12, 2009, 04:30:16 AM

@all
I made a slight mod to my above post.
jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 12, 2009, 08:30:25 AM

@all,
I just found this little place on the net, it could help people with calculating.

Resistance Chart Power Wheel wall chart Power calculator

Trey this link here http://www.leonaudio.com.au/res_code.htm

and for a ceramic chart, try here http://www.justradios.com/uFnFpF.html

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 12, 2009, 09:44:52 AM

Quote from: jeanna on May 11, 2009, 09:29:06 PM
I think you have it!
hooray!

let-r-rip!

jeanna

I now know/think I know why my recent coil didn't work! I was going between every wire but to do this my crossovers alternated one in the going accross the front of the winding and one going back across over the winding. Maybe the fields cancelled eachother out!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 12, 2009, 09:59:06 AM

Quote from: electricme on May 12, 2009, 03:58:09 AM
@stprue,
Thanks for your interest in what I am doing.

I have made a crt of the 1st experiment I did with my 7 toroid primaries in series.

jim

Well it is very interesting work to me! Have you seen any benifits to this set up in conparison to a single coil set up? (Data)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 12, 2009, 10:01:42 AM

NICE my 100 20,000mcd leds have just come in ;D

@Pirate

Can you let me know where you got your magnesium and carbon from?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 12, 2009, 11:06:51 AM

I have been busy.

It has been a few days sense I have had time to read any posts here .

I am going to post a little about my new JT

I am calling it LM1

Sorry I don't have any pictures
I tried to send some from my phone but they did not show up for some reason .

This kind of JT requires a lower voltage LED than most . I am using a red one . (2 V )

LM stands for Lazy Man :)
So it is pretty easy to make .

I started with a full coil of red Radio Shack magnet wire .
That is 200 ft of #30 mag wire for the non Radio Shack people here . :)

This wire comes with the start of the wire sticking through the center of the spool .
I sanded the enamel off both ends .............OK ...... the secondary is finished .
It is time for the primary .

You have to understand how to tune a coil to make this kind of JT .
There are MANY options for cores ......
I have found that around 15 wraps bifilar works well with no core . (2 wires each about 6 ft )

Using 2 Electronic Goldmine 5 for $1 toroids in the center of the spool works well at around 8 turns

This is a low power JT but I have been getting good results with it .

I am working on a driver for a 60 LED array out of a LED floodlight .

The basic LM1 isn't strong enough to light this array. ( 1.2 volt AA battery ) It runs around 50 volts with only the original JT LED

For LM1.2 I used an empty Radio shack spool and put some #38 mag wire on it .
The wire broke when the spool was maybe 1/4 full ( about the same as radio shack puts on them )
I did not look it up ........but if someone remembers how many ohms per foot #38 wire has this coil is 355 ohms
I put a temporary primary on it .
The temporary primary was made with a pair of wires from a cat5 cable
6 wraps ( 32 in )
160 V with no load .
Driving the array the voltage drops to 74 V
The array is by no means at full power . It is more like 1/4 power
I intend to power it with an 18 V battery eventually.
I tried 3V it was MUCH closer to full brightness .
No core on this JT
I would have tried it with a toroid or 2 but I would have had to cut the wire off of some of my old JTs first .
I think that the JT will handle more power with the toroid in the center.
The voltage drops slightly when a core is added (at least if it is tuned for no core) but the LEDs got brighter

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 12, 2009, 11:15:37 AM

@hazens1,
I like that mini fluro you have there, very nice. :D
There should be a lot of room in the container to setup a JT within it.
jim

@xee2,

I have just "almost" completed a JT using the diagram you posted back on P571, labled mA fluorescent circuit.jpg
I haven't got as far as including the 1N4007 diode or 220pf ceramic, something 4 tomorrow, it's 1.00Am in the morning here.

I soldered a LED across the (C) and the (E) of the 2N3055 transistor, they both get a bit warm, the LED is very bright, which shows it is working.
I got 50 ohms from paralleling up 2 x 100 ohm resistors, for those not in the know, parallelling resistors, divides the resistance, it also doubled the wattage of the resistor.

Base coil = 3 turns
Collector coil = 7 turns

Secondary =160 up the torids side then 110 turns back down the side. = 270 turns total.

First time I used a 2N3055 on a JT, I'm happy with that.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 12, 2009, 11:53:23 AM

I made 2 LM1s and one LM1.2

Now for the fun stuff :)

I have been playing with JTs and back EMF ( flyback ) for a while.

I hooked up my LM1.2 in normal JT fashion . ( 2n3904 5k pot and a 1uF cap across the pot .)

I then hooked the output of the LM1.2 to the secondarys of the LM1 coils ( coil only )
I used the secondarys because the coil is larger , I am looking to capture flyback pulses .

My 60 LED array was a little brighter when hooked up this way .
(Still way under full power but brighter than just the LM1..2 alone )

I then hooked up the primarys of the LM1s to a diode bridge and fed that into a cap . ( each LM1 primary was making about 5 V) ( the 2 primarys combined to make about 5.6 V .....2 seperate bridges might work better )
I then connected the cap to the battery .

The output for the JT array was .08 A
The output of the battery was .04 A

The battery voltage went up until it hit 1.295 then pretty much stopped .
I am guessing this is about as much as this type of 1.2 V battery wants to take .

I used 3 meters for this .
I ran it several hours .
I did not let it run overnight.
I tried letting others setups run unattended before . each time I came back my battery was dead .
The JT has a pretty narrow resonance band ..... I think when the voltage changes enough it slips out of resonance and the whole thing goes out of whack .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 12, 2009, 12:26:35 PM

Sounds like an idea I have been thinking about! Please post some pics when you can!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 12, 2009, 12:42:35 PM

@ electricme

That's a great looking coil, must have taken some time to wind that one! What is it putting out for voltage?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 12, 2009, 12:57:35 PM

@ electricme

Quote from: electricme on May 12, 2009, 11:15:37 AM
@xee2,
I have just "almost" completed a JT using the diagram you posted back on P571, labled mA fluorescent circuit.jpg
I haven't got as far as including the 1N4007 diode or 220pf ceramic, something 4 tomorrow, it's 1.00Am in the morning here.

Why didn't you just use the simpler circuit I posted previously on page 559? Didn't it work for you?

The circuit I posted on page 571 was only to test for minimum battery drain and may have to be modified to work with a different coil.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 12, 2009, 01:48:59 PM

Quote from: stprue on May 12, 2009, 10:01:42 AM
NICE my 100 20,000mcd leds have just come in ;D

@Pirate

Can you let me know where you got your magnesium and carbon from?

I got my carbon rod at a local welding supply company called Airgas. (They are on the internet) I actually ordered from the website and had it shipped to the local store. The part number for this is buried somewhere on my Stubblefield Coils and Speculations topic. It was 1" dia. x 18" long and about $20.00. Someplace in my files from 2 years ago, I have the receipt with the part number if you can't find it. These are called gouging rods in the welding industry. (No copper cladding here) The magnesium came from another local company (Miller's Bottled Gas) that supplies propane and propane accessories. These blocks are used when they set a tank in the ground to stop the corrosion of the steel. (sacrificial anodes) This 5 pound block cost about $45.00. and comes ready to put in the ground. They had to order this from a warehouse someplace. If you need a part number on this too, let me know. I would think any similar business in your area would have access to these same blocks.

I hope this helps.

@ Jim:

Nice coil man. It would take me a week to wind that many turns, ha ha.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 12, 2009, 02:37:52 PM

@ Pirate

Thank you for the infos sir!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 12, 2009, 03:04:28 PM

@ Pirate

In your set up it looked like you were using 2 carbon rod, is this true? Actually what is in your set up exactly? The videos I have seen are all at night! To me it looks like it has great potential. I have been thinking about setting up a nice looking track light system for my living room. I'm not sure if an EB could power it but I could always make a 1.5volt power supply and start saving $$ now!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 12, 2009, 03:09:59 PM

Yes, I am using 2 carbon rods in my set-up. It is actually the 18" long rod cut in half because in the winter when I first did this a while back, I could not get the rod deep enough into the ground, so I cut it. I have the 2 carbon rods buried on the north meridian alignment (Not magnetic north) and 12 feet to the south I have the mag block. The 2 carbon rods are wired to each other. I am sure I can light a bunch of regular power leds which I will try shortly. I have been using the high output leds in my tests thus far.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 12, 2009, 03:21:32 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 12, 2009, 02:03:46 AM

so, are you saying that maybe I should stick one of the supercaps after the JT and before it goes out to when I try to run the Fuji circuit?

No, that isn't what I was saying.
-----
parenthetical remarks:
Because, my experiment with the 2 tier showed that although the PULSE from the first tier IS passed along to the second tier, the power drops off the cliff.
In fact the crazy loop that works well in the 2tier experiments are using both toroids and both secondaries and one bifilar from the second level., like Gary's and also like Jim's multi level circuits.

(On my 2 tier ckt, the only coil that is not hooked to all the others is the bifilar on the first tier that is connected in the BJT way with the transistor etc.
------

But this is not what I was talking about when I asked about the supercap.

Quoteso, now I can try the Fuji off the EB with a supercap after the JT and before the Fuji. This is a great idea to try! (If I have this correct)

Don't let me stop you just because it wasn't what I meant!

I meant to directly connect the fuji to the EB, but if the Kentucky powergrid :) isn't strong enough, add a cap somehow between the EB and the fuji.

I assume you are connecting the magnesium side to the neg side, and the carbon side to the pos battery tab in the fuji ckt. So, put the cap across the battery clips of the fuji ckt.

Another way to say it is,,where you had the led in your first EB that lit, put the fuji ckt. Now, put a cap across the fuji battery just the same as the led.

I guess this is hard to describe.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 12, 2009, 03:29:22 PM

@All,

Can anybody describe how a mains meter works?
I mean the meter the power company uses to determine how many amps of power you are taking from their power plant?

What is the basis onwhich it works?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gyulasun on May 12, 2009, 05:46:36 PM

Hi,

Here is an explanation, (principle is based on eddy current induced in an Alu disk):

"The electromechanical induction meter operates by counting the revolutions of an aluminium disc which is made to rotate at a speed proportional to the power. The number of revolutions is thus proportional to the energy usage. It consumes a small amount of power, typically around 2 watts.
The metallic disc is acted upon by two coils. One coil is connected in such a way that it produces a magnetic flux in proportion to the voltage and the other produces a magnetic flux in proportion to the current. The field of the voltage coil is delayed by 90 degrees using a lag coil. [1]This produces eddy currents in the disc and the effect is such that a force is exerted on the disc in proportion to the product of the instantaneous current and voltage. A permanent magnet exerts an opposing force proportional to the speed of rotation of the disc - this acts as a brake which causes the disc to stop spinning when power stops being drawn rather than allowing it to spin faster and faster. This causes the disc to rotate at a speed proportional to the power being used.
The type of meter described above is used on a single-phase AC supply. Different phase configurations use additional voltage and current coils."

quoted from wikipedia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_meter ) and the link (1) is here: http://www.usbr.gov/power/data/fist/fist3_10/vol3-10.pdf Fig.4 PDF page 12

rgds, Gyula

Quote from: jeanna on May 12, 2009, 03:29:22 PM
@All,

Can anybody describe how a mains meter works?
I mean the meter the power company uses to determine how many amps of power you are taking from their power plant?

What is the basis onwhich it works?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 12, 2009, 05:59:46 PM

@ Jeanna:

Yes, it is hard to describe but you did and I understand it now. I will try that. if that does not work, I will try it with the JT and the cap where I thought you meant. Thank you.

Gyula:

Thanks for posting that. It is a good explanation.

Bil

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 12, 2009, 06:50:56 PM

@Gyula,
thank you.

@all,

hmmm.
the instantaneous current.
I have seen the formula that uses the instantaneous current. I think it is more accurate. It probably assumes rms.

I suppose in the states instantaneous is 1/60th of a second. Other places it is 1/50th of a second.

In one of my coils an instant is a lot shorter in time. It is 1/52,700 part of a second.

I made a mistake in my table. I forgot to multiply the watts of one pulse by its frequency to get the total watts for one whole second. I fixed it, but I will recheck it before posting.

I am still pondering this.

When current goes back and forth, the magnetic flux pulses. Only the voltage is measured. So, when the current goes back and forth the voltage pulses.

Why can't the current be directly measured?
Does the magnetic flux pulse higher when there are more amps?
And is that amps drawn?
If they are always available, then they should be showing up in the meter, but they only show up when they are being used?

And when they are drawn where do they go if what they are doing is going back and forth?

If some of them are converted to heat or light there would be fewer available for the return trip. But what return trip?

If I use 250mA from my 1.2 volt battery, the volts and 250mA are available to go through the wires of the primary. They do. And they do this on a one way trip to the other side of the battery.

But on their way, they jiggle and jump a lot.

The jiggle and jump is reflected in the pickup or secondary wire which lights leds and now fluorotubes.

What is the amps draw?

It cannot be more than 250mA since that is what is coming out of the battery, no more is available for use.

just thinking... this time while I type.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on May 12, 2009, 07:24:46 PM

Update on the 50 LED Solar string light that I got at Menards..

The 8 pin Chip appears to be a logic switch that turns ON the LED string when the voltage from the Solar Panel drops below ~0.5 volts. So no photocell for switching on the string just as I thought.

The Solar Panel is approx 1.5" x 3" and outputs ~2.2 volts directly under a 13 watt CFL. When the sun start shining again I'll test output under direct sunlight.

The Output to the string of leds is approx the same voltage as the battery 1.2-1.4 volts. The LEDs appear to be wired in parallel, so they all must be 1.2-1.5 volt LEDs. I've yet to measure current draw. Will do that soon, need to make an adapter to place in between the string connection and the Solar box.

I should be able to wire a JT circuit to the output of the Solar charger/battery combo box.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 12, 2009, 08:35:40 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on May 12, 2009, 01:46:46 AM
This will increase tube life... which I still fail to see why these things burn out, theoretically, they shouldn't, if they're sealed and made well, they should last as long as LED's or longer.

Perhaps they're design is a failure, but their principle of operation is a success?

it resume to : everything degrade with time, more stress = degrade faster.

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 12, 2009, 02:03:46 AM
My understanding, such as it is at this moment, is that the output from the JT circuit is AC. Even if it is pulsed DC, which is still up to some debate, the trigger coil I am speaking of "should" output real AC. (maybe not?)

the trigger coil you speak of is an autotransformer.
they are normally use for high voltage, low current applications.
such a transformers are used in applications that do not require circuits isolation.
autotransformer are sharing a common "ground" wire.

Quote from: electricme on May 12, 2009, 02:26:04 AM
@all,
My PC came down with a major Virus and Trojan attacks (3) and BackDoor Bots.
So I've been off air a couple of days, hopefully it is all OK now.

I was using Firefox ...

??? your antivirus should have detected those before they even got installed and run, they are old virii.

also, you are the first one who dare say he was infected using Firefox.
had you changed its default settings for some less secure settings ?

Quote from: jeanna on May 12, 2009, 03:29:22 PM
Can anybody describe how a mains meter works?
I mean the meter the power company uses to determine how many amps of power you are taking from their power plant?

What is the basis onwhich it works?

they are induction based, like motors.
they use Lenz's law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenz%27s_law) to their advantage.
a current flow create a mag field that, when put near an aluminium disk, will influence it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 12, 2009, 08:49:40 PM

@ jeanna

If you use a scope to measure the voltage across a resistor you are also measuring instantaneous current since the current is just voltage divided by the resistance (just like you measure current using your 10 ohm resistor).

Current is the number of electrons that flow through the wire. Voltage is how hard the electrons push on each other. If you have a capacitor charged to 100 volts then it contains a lot a electrons pushing on each other with 100 volts of force. If you connect it to a capacitor charged to 50 volts with a wire then the electrons will flow from the 100 volt capacitor to the 50 volt capacitor since they are being pushed on harder at 100 volts than at 50 volts. A return wire is needed to make a complete circuit when you do this. The current is the flow of electrons between the capacitors. If there is no wire connection between the capacitors then there is no place for the electrons to be pushed and they stay in the capacitor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 12, 2009, 09:00:20 PM

@ Xee2:

Thanks for that information.

@ Jeanna:

Jeanna!!!!! I did what you said and I just lit 100 leds from the earth battery!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You were right, this is what I did way back I had just forgotten. I had used the supercap with the JT back then and that is why I was trying it with the EB JT circuit BUT, I could not run the JT and then put a supercap after it like I was suggesting earlier because, my JT output would blow the cap. (I knew there was a reason I didn't do that.) I had originally just tried to run the Fuji off the EB alone and....no go. Now, I did as you suggested, nothing except the EB powering the Fuji and one 2.3 10 Farad supercap in parallel and.....they all light!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (String of 100 led Christmas lights) This may be a record of some kind.

I am now off to make a video once it gets a little darker outside.

Thanks so much Jeanna! I guess I am learning so much new stuff that some of the old stuff is going out the other side of my brain, ha ha. It must be full.

Video forthcoming.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on May 12, 2009, 09:14:06 PM

bravo bill!
i got 5 stars ready for your vid.
let's see one with a fluoro too ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on May 12, 2009, 09:52:25 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 12, 2009, 09:00:20 PM
@ Xee2:

Thanks for that information.

@ Jeanna:

Jeanna!!!!! I did what you said and I just lit 100 leds from the earth battery!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You were right, this is what I did way back I had just forgotten. I had used the supercap with the JT back then and that is why I was trying it with the EB JT circuit BUT, I could not run the JT and then put a supercap after it like I was suggesting earlier because, my JT output would blow the cap. (I knew there was a reason I didn't do that.) I had originally just tried to run the Fuji off the EB alone and....no go. Now, I did as you suggested, nothing except the EB powering the Fuji and one 2.3 10 Farad supercap in parallel and.....they all light!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (String of 100 led Christmas lights) This may be a record of some kind.

I am now off to make a video once it gets a little darker outside.

Thanks so much Jeanna! I guess I am learning so much new stuff that some of the old stuff is going out the other side of my brain, ha ha. It must be full.

Video forthcoming.

Bill

Congratulations @pirate!!!!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 12, 2009, 10:09:00 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 12, 2009, 06:50:56 PM
hmmm.
the instantaneous current.
I have seen the formula that uses the instantaneous current. I think it is more accurate. It probably assumes rms.

I suppose in the states instantaneous is 1/60th of a second. Other places it is 1/50th of a second.

In one of my coils an instant is a lot shorter in time. It is 1/52,700 part of a second.

I made a mistake in my table. I forgot to multiply the watts of one pulse by its frequency to get the total watts for one whole second. I fixed it, but I will recheck it before posting.

I am still pondering this.

When current goes back and forth, the magnetic flux pulses. Only the voltage is measured. So, when the current goes back and forth the voltage pulses.

Why can't the current be directly measured?

how can you count electrons that pass from one side of a virtual gate to the other side ?
the easiest way is to measure the voltage accross a know resistance that is connected in series to the source.
a ampmeter is doing this.

Quote from: jeanna on May 12, 2009, 06:50:56 PM
Does the magnetic flux pulse higher when there are more amps?

the current does not create a mag field, the current flow is.
that being said, yes, more current flow create bigger mag field.

Quote from: jeanna on May 12, 2009, 06:50:56 PM
And is that amps drawn?
If they are always available, then they should be showing up in the meter, but they only show up when they are being used?

And when they are drawn where do they go if what they are doing is going back and forth?

If some of them are converted to heat or light there would be fewer available for the return trip. But what return trip?

If I use 250mA from my 1.2 volt battery, the volts and 250mA are available to go through the wires of the primary. They do. And they do this on a one way trip to the other side of the battery.

But on their way, they jiggle and jump a lot.

The jiggle and jump is reflected in the pickup or secondary wire which lights leds and now fluorotubes.

What is the amps draw?

It cannot be more than 250mA since that is what is coming out of the battery, no more is available for use.

see previous comment about current flow.
current can be compared to a pump + a pipe, in lots of ways.
the water in the pipe does nothing by itself.
you need pressure and something the can displace the water.
you can have pressure alone, but if the water is not allowed to move, there will be no water flow.
if the pump can only dissplace a small amount of water, even if you have a lot of pressure, you will have low gallons per minute output.
the way you can measure the water output is to place a relatively low resistance(flow meter) to measure the working force against the resistance.

with plused DC the current only goes in one direction, the fact it is pulsed does not change that.
unless you are dealing with pure DC, you can not assume that the amps peek is reached instantaniously or that it is always at it peek.
the time constant must be part of the equation.

with AC the current flow direction change.
but think of it as if you were flipping the battery + and - at a given frequency.
the charge imbalance of the battery still do the same work not matter whitch way it is connected.

for a pure sine wave .707 is the constant that will calculate the true RMS value.
but that constant change with the wave form.
if what you are measuring is not a perfect sine wave you can't use peek * .707 = RMS
you need to find the proper constant value for the wave form you have first, and that is not simple.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on May 12, 2009, 10:39:52 PM

Here's the Diagram for my 1 inch 5/$1 Goldmine Toroid Fluorescent JT Circuit. I modified Xee2's diagram to match my setup. Thanks Xee2!

Check out the last pic. I took the 1.6 watt tube from the night light and put in in the circuit. Pretty bright! 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 12, 2009, 11:01:20 PM

@ hazens1

Very nicely done. Is that really a ten ohm base resistor?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 12, 2009, 11:05:29 PM

@ hazens1:

Nice Job there! Floro tube on a JT circuit. Xee2 was the first I know of to do this on a hand wound JT and now, you have done it. Excellent work!

Xee2:

Great circuit there!

@ All:

Youtube is STILL down for maintenance so I have to wait to upload my next video.

@ Wilby:

Thanks man, I appreciate that.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hartiberlin on May 12, 2009, 11:16:06 PM

Hi hazens1 ,
nice light output at the U-shaped tube.

How much current are you drawing in this picture from
the AA battery ?

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 12, 2009, 11:27:56 PM

@stprue, and all, :)

Referring to my 7 toroid setup, I see "you want some [Data]".

I haven't got much as I'm in the process of designing the pulse circuit on paper first, then I have to get the parts which I don't have here, and the shop which sells them is a 200 klm round trip away.

OK.
I built the 7 toroid string first, just to see if it could be done, and it can. :D
There is "NO limit" on how many toroids you could put into a string/series setup, except for the "resistance" of the wire used in the primary.

All, the Toroids are all the same dimentions, share the same colours Lime green with a darker green ring on the top,

The primaries.
These are NOT bifilar wound, each toroid is just a simple coil, all primaries are connected in SERIES, wound with a single wire, consisting of 7 turns each, this could have been achieved by several wires then solder them in series.

The Secondaries
Each secondary has 24 turns, wires size are identical.
So up to this point, the circuit matches all 7 toroids.

Next I modified the 7 toroid array.
There are a range of different diodes and diode configurations, as well as different capacitors.

I did it this way to give me a better idea of which combination works the best.
I should be able to see at a glance which is the combination to use for all 7 toroids.

Toroid DIODE used CAP uF & Value LED colour Size Results if any seen
T1 Bridge 1N4004s 470uF 16v Green 3mm Nil
T2 1 diode 1N4004 1000uF 16v White HB 5mm Nil
T3 Bridge 1N4004s 100uF 16v Green 3mm Slow 2 light slow 2 dim
T4 Bridge 1N4148s 2.2uF 50v Green 3mm Lights fast on & off
T5 1 diode 1N4004 1000uF 16v White HB 5mm Light V Fast on V Fast off
T6 Bridge 1N4148s 450uF 6.3v Green 3mm Nil
T7 Bridge 1N4004s 1000uF 16v White HB 5mm Nil

All primaries coils share the voltage and current.
All secondaries give a different output because of different diodes and capacitors and LEDs used.

To test it, I supplied power from a single 1.2 volt NiCad cell.
Current drawn in 5 seconds "on" time, was 5.5 Amps

Flicking the red positave wire produces pulses, my hand gets tired too fast.
The cell went flat rather quickly, so it is back on charge again lol.
Don't worry, I will do a more intense range of tests as soon as I make up a PWM circuit.

But what I have "observed" is this, the center Toroids seem to work better than the "outer" ones.
Mabe this is because the energy meets up in the middle? but somehow this should not be so.

The LED's only go on when the power is removed, so the power pulse "on" time will need to be set at a value as well as the power "off" time, which is the The Mark Space ratios.
Mark = ON time (capacitor charge up time)
Space = Off time (capacitor discharge time)

What I'm seeing here is, if the capacitor is a lower capatance value it will charge quicker and discharge quicker.

So my brief testing shows me there is 2 capacitors I can use so far.
It looks like is the 2.2uF @50v or the 1000uf @16v.

Until I get a PWM setup, it would not be wize to do any more testing, as I expect these results to be totally different again.
When all is ready for full testing, there will be scope screen images, Hz meter counts, DMM readings in Volts and Amps.

Then again, I "might" rewind the secondaries with thinner wire and double the turns, then see what that brings forth. ;D

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 12, 2009, 11:47:29 PM

@stprue
Not much voltage out 31 volts AC. :)

Quote from: stprue on May 12, 2009, 12:42:35 PM
@ electricme

That's a great looking coil, must have taken some time to wind that one! What is it putting out for voltage?

The whole thing except the toroid gets warm to hot.
The 2n3055 gets warm.
The LED gets hot.
Current draw from 1.5v NiCad = 1.210 amps, too much for this kid, but then again, if it is designed to put out grunt, then heat is the result of this, so it could be what I have been looking for to power my 7 toroids string, hmmmm.

Next step is to put a 1N4007 diode in series with the output with a capacitor accross that.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 13, 2009, 01:28:15 AM

Earth Battery Lights 100 LEDS!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaUBxUJrGzY

Here is the video. Youtube finally let me upload it. it is short but much more to come. Jeanna, thank you again!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 13, 2009, 01:37:12 AM

@hasens1,
That is a very nice glowing tube there, well done.
Nice tight turns on the coil also.

When will you be able to miniturise the circuit so it will fit back into the fluro tube assembly holder?
That will look real pritty then, and it has a switch built in also.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 13, 2009, 02:02:49 AM

@All,
Someone was looking for Carbon Rods for their Earth Battery Experiments
Try this website here (thanks Bill)
AirGas
http://www.airgas.com/browse/product_list.aspx?catID=418&Keyword=Carbon%20Rods several rod sizes
http://www.airgas.com/browse/product.aspx?Msg=RecID&recIds=379618&WT.svl=379618 1 inch rod size

Unfortunately AirGas isn't out this way in Aussie land.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 13, 2009, 02:14:42 AM

Jim:

Thanks for posting those links, I have them somewhere but, who knows where, ha ha. What do you think of my 100 led earth battery experiment? I am really excited about this! Now I want big, big supercaps. Today leds, next month, my home ac unit, ha ha. (Hey, you never know)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 13, 2009, 02:20:01 AM

@Bill
Yeay! I knew you could do it!!!!!!!

@Hazens,
Thank you for that diagram

Now there are 2 fluorotubes. This is so exciting...
I have one of those mediums left. I don't have that transistor, but maybe it will be OK. I do have some fuji ckt transistors, but I bet the 3904 can do this.

10 ohms? that is low!
Does it get warm?

400v is higher than the fuji got the volts. I bet you could light a bigger tube with higher wattage rating.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 13, 2009, 02:23:49 AM

@ Jeanna:

Thank you very much!

@ hazens:

Jeanna is correct. My Fuji put out just under 400 volts and I was able to light two 48" tubes (40 watts each) with it using about 1.3 volts input. They were not full brightness of course but still, it was a lot of light. I'll bet your JT can do at least one of those right now.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 13, 2009, 03:48:31 AM

I am so stoked I can't sleep so I made another video. In this one, I am using the same Earth battery, Fuji Joule Thief, and 2 supercaps to light an 18" long 15 watt tube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fV-xjRy3I4

This is fun!!!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 13, 2009, 04:35:44 AM

@Bill, Ooh Sleepless one who is so stoked with success, he he.

Congrats with all your success, I took a look at the 1st quick video you put on youtube, very very nice indeed, you wouldn't want to trip over that lot in the dark, you might get ankle jolts ha ha.

Seriously, the Joule Thief forum has really made huge inroads from the plain old simple JT, it's awesome what we are all doing here now.

Con Grads Bill, well done mate.

@all, ;D

I just got sat on my ass :-[ by my Hazens1 JT circuit, hazens, you didn't warn me it has "bite" with in it lol. To make it worse, the battery wasn't connected at all. It whacked me a beauty.

I also forgot I had soldered a 103K 1Kv rated SWC disc ceramic capacitor across the 2 x 100ohm resistors, between the Base and the Toroids leg.

I had just soldered a 104K Polyester capacitor across the output after the single diode, I connected the battery, it loaded up, I had disconnected the battery, then wack, it hit me with 319.volts.
I just measured it on my new DMM.

Hay, is this something we have missed, is the Polyester range of capacitors better than the humble ceramics? Polyester capacitors have a translucent look with them. I have a fer in my parts draws, gonna do some experimenting soon.

But gota watch at Bills second video first. he he.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 13, 2009, 05:18:46 AM

Jim:

Thank you very much! This was fun tonight and this morning. sometimes things don't work out the way we planned, and sometimes they do.

So, you got zapped by your Hazens replication eh? Remember, a lot of folks say (including my college physics professor) that volts can't do any work. So, that pain you felt must have all been in your imagination.

But seriously, excellent job on the replication. I really need to catch up. (I keep saying this I know) I am only using the Fuji because I have not done what you folks have done but, that is next. (I hope) you guys have proved something Jeanna said she wanted to do a long time ago. and, that is to hand wind a toroid, or toroids that had the same or better output than the modified Fuji. I believe you all have passed that point now and things will only get better from here.

I still say you should wire one of those to your mouse trap. ZAP!

Thanks again Jim. And, thanks again to everyone here.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 13, 2009, 09:49:34 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 13, 2009, 01:28:15 AM
Earth Battery Lights 100 LEDS!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaUBxUJrGzY

Here is the video. Youtube finally let me upload it. it is short but much more to come. Jeanna, thank you again!

Bill

Awesome! I knew it could be done! Great job ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 13, 2009, 09:51:29 AM

Quote from: electricme on May 12, 2009, 11:27:56 PM
@stprue, and all, :)

Referring to my 7 toroid setup, I see "you want some [Data]".

I haven't got much as I'm in the process of designing the pulse circuit on paper first, then I have to get the parts which I don't have here, and the shop which sells them is a 200 klm round trip away.

OK.
I built the 7 toroid string first, just to see if it could be done, and it can. :D
There is "NO limit" on how many toroids you could put into a string/series setup, except for the "resistance" of the wire used in the primary.

All, the Toroids are all the same dimentions, share the same colours Lime green with a darker green ring on the top,

The primaries.
These are NOT bifilar wound, each toroid is just a simple coil, all primaries are connected in SERIES, wound with a single wire, consisting of 7 turns each, this could have been achieved by several wires then solder them in series.

The Secondaries
Each secondary has 24 turns, wires size are identical.
So up to this point, the circuit matches all 7 toroids.

Next I modified the 7 toroid array.
There are a range of different diodes and diode configurations, as well as different capacitors.

I did it this way to give me a better idea of which combination works the best.
I should be able to see at a glance which is the combination to use for all 7 toroids.

Toroid DIODE used CAP uF & Value LED colour Size Results if any seen
T1 Bridge 1N4004s 470uF 16v Green 3mm Nil
T2 1 diode 1N4004 1000uF 16v White HB 5mm Nil
T3 Bridge 1N4004s 100uF 16v Green 3mm Slow 2 light slow 2 dim
T4 Bridge 1N4148s 2.2uF 50v Green 3mm Lights fast on & off
T5 1 diode 1N4004 1000uF 16v White HB 5mm Light V Fast on V Fast off
T6 Bridge 1N4148s 450uF 6.3v Green 3mm Nil
T7 Bridge 1N4004s 1000uF 16v White HB 5mm Nil

All primaries coils share the voltage and current.
All secondaries give a different output because of different diodes and capacitors and LEDs used.

To test it, I supplied power from a single 1.2 volt NiCad cell.
Current drawn in 5 seconds "on" time, was 5.5 Amps

Flicking the red positave wire produces pulses, my hand gets tired too fast.
The cell went flat rather quickly, so it is back on charge again lol.
Don't worry, I will do a more intense range of tests as soon as I make up a PWM circuit.

But what I have "observed" is this, the center Toroids seem to work better than the "outer" ones.
Mabe this is because the energy meets up in the middle? but somehow this should not be so.

The LED's only go on when the power is removed, so the power pulse "on" time will need to be set at a value as well as the power "off" time, which is the The Mark Space ratios.
Mark = ON time (capacitor charge up time)
Space = Off time (capacitor discharge time)

What I'm seeing here is, if the capacitor is a lower capatance value it will charge quicker and discharge quicker.

So my brief testing shows me there is 2 capacitors I can use so far.
It looks like is the 2.2uF @50v or the 1000uf @16v.

Until I get a PWM setup, it would not be wize to do any more testing, as I expect these results to be totally different again.
When all is ready for full testing, there will be scope screen images, Hz meter counts, DMM readings in Volts and Amps.

Then again, I "might" rewind the secondaries with thinner wire and double the turns, then see what that brings forth. ;D

jim

Data received and thank you for the time you put into it! ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 13, 2009, 12:01:36 PM

Oh my goodness, Bill,

This is so awesome. I just saw your videos with the fuji circuit. Also, I thanked you there and I will repeat now, thank you for the credit you gave me. I believe as we encourage each other we will all just gain and gain.

Thank you for documenting all your work and successes.

awesome,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 13, 2009, 12:42:49 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 13, 2009, 03:48:31 AM
I am so stoked I can't sleep so I made another video. In this one, I am using the same Earth battery, Fuji Joule Thief, and 2 supercaps to light an 18" long 15 watt tube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fV-xjRy3I4

This is fun!!!

Bill

In a sence isn't this free energy or at lease one on the most efficient and clean energy. I think it must be a record!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on May 13, 2009, 12:59:57 PM

Quote from: hartiberlin on May 12, 2009, 11:16:06 PM
Hi hazens1 ,
nice light output at the U-shaped tube.

How much current are you drawing in this picture from
the AA battery ?

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

Amp draw is about 140ma at 1.3 volts input with the 1.6 watt tube.

Quote from: electricme on May 13, 2009, 01:37:12 AM
@hasens1,
That is a very nice glowing tube there, well done.
Nice tight turns on the coil also.

When will you be able to miniturise the circuit so it will fit back into the fluro tube assembly holder?
That will look real pritty then, and it has a switch built in also.

jim

I wish I was as good at creating Time as I am at winding coils :D
Eventually, I will get to it..

Quote from: electricme on May 13, 2009, 04:35:44 AM
I just got sat on my ass :-[ by my Hazens1 JT circuit, hazens, you didn't warn me it has "bite" with in it lol. To make it worse, the battery wasn't connected at all. It whacked me a beauty.

jim

Yeah, gotta watch those circuits. I'll have to start putting disclaimers on my diagrams :o
I was testing the 4 inch tube and forgot I had 2 x 200v, 22uf in series on the output and I touched the tube's contacts and got a good jolt myself.

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 13, 2009, 02:23:49 AM
@ hazens:

Jeanna is correct. My Fuji put out just under 400 volts and I was able to light two 48" tubes (40 watts each) with it using about 1.3 volts input. They were not full brightness of course but still, it was a lot of light. I'll bet your JT can do at least one of those right now.

Bill

Congrats on the Earth Battery stuff!

I'll be testing some larger tubes as I aquire them. I need to get some larger toroids too, so I can increase my output voltage and amps. I like using the 26ga since it is so sturdy and provides good amps in the output. Using 26ga, I think I'm at the limits of the Goldmine 1 incher. I could go to 28 or 30 guage, but that might sacrifice some amps on the output. I've had higher voltage before, but could not light floros. I think you need amps in the pickup as well as volts to do it.

Quote from: jeanna on May 13, 2009, 02:20:01 AM
@Hazens,
Thank you for that diagram

Now there are 2 fluorotubes. This is so exciting...
I have one of those mediums left. I don't have that transistor, but maybe it will be OK. I do have some fuji ckt transistors, but I bet the 3904 can do this.

10 ohms? that is low!
Does it get warm?

400v is higher than the fuji got the volts. I bet you could light a bigger tube with higher wattage rating.

thank you,

jeanna

Your welcome!

The 10ohm does not get warm. I could go higher resistance, but I adjusted for maximum voltage and it happened to max out at about 10ohm for this coil.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 13, 2009, 02:56:31 PM

@ Hazens1

My best results have been with 22 and 24 gauge wire. At 400 volt you're all set at this point the amps will make things other then lights work!

Great job, I will be replicating your latest coil!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 13, 2009, 03:58:21 PM

nice Pirate88179 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=profile;u=8844)
how long does it last ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 13, 2009, 04:00:18 PM

Quote from: hazens1 on May 13, 2009, 12:59:57 PM
EDIT
nevermind. I found your original post.

Quote... I've had higher voltage before, but could not light floros. I think you need amps in the pickup as well as volts to do it.

Maybe.

The fuji transformer has extreeeeemly skinny wire (1760T secondary) and can light the fluoro. I had the 15watt fluoro lit for 2 hours straight then 1 hour after the battery recovered and one more total with several more recovery times in between. I call it 4 hours, but 2 straight through.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 13, 2009, 04:01:13 PM

OOO goodie
I just got my 3.38" toroid!!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 13, 2009, 04:02:32 PM

Quote from: stprue on May 13, 2009, 12:42:49 PM
In a sence isn't this free energy or at lease one on the most efficient and clean energy. I think it must be a record!

Thank you very much. Well, to me it is free energy but others on Youtube will not agree on this point. One guy told me that it takes thousands of amps of electricity to make a magnesium block so it isn't free energy. I said that that power was already spent, and the block was on a shelf somewhere in a warehouse so to me, once the material costs (mine) are surpassed, it is free energy. I mean, it takes electricity to make transistors, caps, etc. At some point, I think it is rediculous to factor all of that in. It took electricity to make the copper wires in our homes but, we don't get billed for that every month by the power company.

There may end up being some consuming of the magnesium annode over time, I don't know. This is the first I have run a set-up of this size so we will see. But, to me it is a form of free energy, or at least, free to me energy or even almost free to me energy. Whatever it is, I like it. Thanks for your comments.

@ Jeanna:

Thank you for posting your comments on youtube. Now, I want to build one of those coils that is shocking Jim and hazens and power that with the EB.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 13, 2009, 05:08:16 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 13, 2009, 04:01:13 PM
OOO goodie
I just got my 3.38" toroid!!

jeanna

There nice looking aren't they?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 13, 2009, 05:17:36 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 13, 2009, 04:02:32 PM
Thank you very much. Well, to me it is free energy but others on Youtube will not agree on this point. One guy told me that it takes thousands of amps of electricity to make a magnesium block so it isn't free energy. I said that that power was already spent, and the block was on a shelf somewhere in a warehouse so to me, once the material costs (mine) are surpassed, it is free energy. I mean, it takes electricity to make transistors, caps, etc. At some point, I think it is rediculous to factor all of that in. It took electricity to make the copper wires in our homes but, we don't get billed for that every month by the power company.

There may end up being some consuming of the magnesium annode over time, I don't know. This is the first I have run a set-up of this size so we will see. But, to me it is a form of free energy, or at least, free to me energy or even almost free to me energy. Whatever it is, I like it. Thanks for your comments.

Bill

Electric company charging you for the copper wire...Don't give them any ideas ;D

I understand what some people are saying but only you have all your parts that are reasonably priced to me anyways it would be free that's my goal as well!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 13, 2009, 05:19:11 PM

I tried adding windings to my LM1.2 The voltage went down rather than up .

It does seem to be a little stronger though.

One thing good about it . From what I have seen when pulsing coils to get back EMF pulses the coil you use for the pulsing has to be higher inductance than the receiving coil .

\
I have a feedback loop with one LM1 running now .
I find that it is easy to tune the system if you have a couple of meters .

I am reading 1.3309 V on the battery the current from the battery is .03A
The output is reading 61V with the LED array on . 95 with the array dissconnected .
With the array disconnected I get a reading of .25A This is probably not an accureate reading because of frequency and spikes .

maybe tomorow I will hook up my bridge and cap to the out and read the DC output for a while .

My array is pretty dim at this power setting .....right now I am more interested in the OU than the power .

Here is a picture of my LN1s

Not pretty but easy to play with :)

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 13, 2009, 06:49:17 PM

I just gave up on posting my other pictures today

I just spent most of the last hour getting timed out .

On the positive side I was running my LM1.2 and making spikes with my LM1

It is clearly OU .

It had been stable for around an hour .

If I had not been sitting here waiting for my post to go though I would not have noticed that the battery had dropped half a volt and the LED array was starting to flicker .
I wiggled a couple of wires that I have had problems with on my breadboard .......and the flickering stopped ....... a few minutes later the voltage was back up there ...... around 1.305
It seems to be the battery that is holding the circuit at a fairly constant voltage .........I hope I am not frying it :)

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 13, 2009, 07:02:58 PM

@Hi gary,
That's pretty cool.

My hands are verrry full at the moment 18.89 feet of wire eesh...., so I cannot type any more.

Did you ever make a circuit drawing?

very cool. Did jesus see this, I wonder?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 13, 2009, 08:40:25 PM

@ Jeanna

Ahhh you are already winding the 3.38''....NICE

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 13, 2009, 09:09:04 PM

Actually no.
I decided to hold myself in check a little and use my last med 5/$ toroid to copy what Hazens did.
I have found it to be easier to measure one or 2 turns and make the cut wire as close to the actual length as possible. In this case I added 10 inches at each end. I think I figured 1.375 inches around times 150 turns was 208 inches and 20 more divided by 12 is almost 19 feet.

It is quite a job keeping the wire from getting caught in itself.

Next. I will use the new big one.

I still have 2 more filters. They are better material but smaller diameter than the 5/$1med.

I think that 3.38" will be good. anyway I hope so.
It has a good shape, not too high for the diameter, I think.

Have you even started to make a primary for that one?
I wonder if it will need more wire or primary turns to make it oscillate?

I expect to be using the Hazens1 center tap winding method for the primary.
It is easier to add and subtract turns using his method.

I actually found the dead spots in the 5/$1med today.
It is more like not exactly 180 degrees from the primary.
Instead it is 180 degrees from the end wire that goes into the transistor.
So, there are 2 and if the primary is 12 oclock, then the dead spots are at 5 and 7.
Does that description make sense?

I am making this one just like hazens, so there will be minimal differences.

I took a peek at 50 turns, which is all I did in 2 hours. (it will get faster as I have less loose wire flapping around)

with 220r it drew
27mA at
17KHz and produced
160 volts.
The shape was mostly flat line with occasional spikes.

With 2200r it drew
1.3mA (12.8mA with a BJTL in place) and at
33.3kHz produced
89.9 volts.
The shape was similar but the spikes were closer together and shorter.

I s'pose that is going to be right with another 100 turns and the return direction. I may look again when I turn back and again at 100 turns, just to watch what happens along the way. It might be interesting.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 13, 2009, 10:51:10 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 13, 2009, 09:09:04 PM
Actually no.
I decided to hold myself in check a little and use my last med 5/$ toroid to copy what Hazens did.
I have found it to be easier to measure one or 2 turns and make the cut wire as close to the actual length as possible. In this case I added 10 inches at each end. I think I figured 1.375 inches around times 150 turns was 208 inches and 20 more divided by 12 is almost 19 feet.

It is quite a job keeping the wire from getting caught in itself.

Next. I will use the new big one.

I still have 2 more filters. They are better material but smaller diameter than the 5/$1med.

I think that 3.38" will be good. anyway I hope so.
It has a good shape, not too high for the diameter, I think.

Have you even started to make a primary for that one?
I wonder if it will need more wire or primary turns to make it oscillate?

I expect to be using the Hazens1 center tap winding method for the primary.
It is easier to add and subtract turns using his method.

I actually found the dead spots in the 5/$1med today.
It is more like not exactly 180 degrees from the primary.
Instead it is 180 degrees from the end wire that goes into the transistor.
So, there are 2 and if the primary is 12 oclock, then the dead spots are at 5 and 7.
Does that description make sense?

I am making this one just like hazens, so there will be minimal differences.

I took a peek at 50 turns, which is all I did in 2 hours. (it will get faster as I have less loose wire flapping around)

with 220r it drew
27mA at
17KHz and produced
160 volts.
The shape was mostly flat line with occasional spikes.

With 2200r it drew
1.3mA (12.8mA with a BJTL in place) and at
33.3kHz produced
89.9 volts.
The shape was similar but the spikes were closer together and shorter.

I s'pose that is going to be right with another 100 turns and the return direction. I may look again when I turn back and again at 100 turns, just to watch what happens along the way. It might be interesting.

jeanna

I see, no I have not started the 3.38'' yet. I think I'm intimidated. I wouldn't want to mess up with that much wire. One thing that I will be doing to help me wind it is keeping the wire in the wire coil it came with. I'm not sure if you noticed but the radioshack wire conviently fits through it but barely. I will shave off some siding. This way I wont have to worry about tangling up the wire and it will be way quicker 8)

I am also going to copy Hazen1 new coil but I honetsly didn't know he had a pirticular style to do it. Also I still don't know how to find dead spots or the right amount of turns. For me it is trail and error and guest based on what I have seen. I am still very new to this.

About the amount of wire on primary and JT part. I deffinetly think it will be more then any of us are used to.

P.S. I finished my new attempt at the MK1 e2 today. I will test tomorrow and post some results ;D

I think I can, I think I can, I think I can...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: captainpecan on May 14, 2009, 01:16:32 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 13, 2009, 04:02:32 PM
Thank you very much. Well, to me it is free energy but others on Youtube will not agree on this point. One guy told me that it takes thousands of amps of electricity to make a magnesium block so it isn't free energy. I said that that power was already spent, and the block was on a shelf somewhere in a warehouse so to me, once the material costs (mine) are surpassed, it is free energy. I mean, it takes electricity to make transistors, caps, etc. At some point, I think it is rediculous to factor all of that in. It took electricity to make the copper wires in our homes but, we don't get billed for that every month by the power company.

The voice of a skeptic never ceases to amaze me. So I guess if you happened to find a completely naturally occurring magnesium block that did not take any electricity to make, then it would finally be free energy? No, that's right, a different excuse would be in order then. I wish more people would wake up, and see the truth. Since energy cannot be created or destroyed, we still have exactly as much energy now as we did a million years ago. Oh, and money did not exist then either... So technically, doesn't that mean that every bit of energy we have ever used, has been FREE???? The only thing we are ever paying for, is for someone to rent us the free energy we did not go out and get for ourselves. I really don't think it's that complicated to be honest... lol... It's no different than paying for water. The water has always been free to all of us, but if we would like it to be clean, and ran directly to our faucets, we have to pay for it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: captainpecan on May 14, 2009, 01:30:09 AM

@all

Time has been really short for me, working two jobs and all in these though times, so when I get some free time to check back in, everything has moved 50 pages already, lol... So sorry if I missed the answer to this, but has anyone posted any results of work joining a Tesla Switch concept, with the Joule Thief yet? I'm interested in working with these two to make the Joule Thief even more efficient, but I am not seeing any info of others trying this yet? I'm obviously not the first one to think about this, does someone have any info available I can follow? Many thanks in advance!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 14, 2009, 04:50:16 AM

@all,
I tried to do a post here and seem to have lost it, so I will try again.

This is hasens1 circuit I am following
This afternoon, I blew the UB green LED which was between the 2N3055 Collector and the Emitter.

Last night, it was looking a very nice pritty light blue colour, very soft, then now I just happened to look down to see it fade to a green tiny point, then it was extinguished, never to light again. boohoo. :'(

Next time I will put a 1k resistor between the LED and the transister, but I will also put a switch in here so I can turn it on or off, just to keep an eye on the transistor.

I discovered something else, the LED was cutting back the HV output of the toroid.
Before the LED blew, the output was 319volts
After the LED blew, the output went up to 435volts
A difference of 116volts.

This turns out to be only "half" the output which is avaliable. :D see photo below
More surprises to follow soon with pics

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 14, 2009, 05:19:27 AM

Jim:

435 volts? Wow! I really have to make one of these. Don't want to touch that one with the fingers.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 14, 2009, 07:31:37 AM

@All
Hi Guys . I have been very busy and sorry have not posted in a while . i am still on page 551 :(
@Hazen1
Man you have got to be kidding ! Here is my replication of your 3 - 7- 150 and i only got 2 volts >:( .. there must be a direction of turns that is missing . . I am Ticked because that was a pain to wind . tell me the directions of turns for 3 and 7 and 150 . mine are all cw .. I am using your exact parts and wire ,

GADGET

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on May 14, 2009, 07:48:52 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 14, 2009, 07:31:37 AM
@Hazen1
Man you have got to be kidding ! Here is my replication of your 3 - 7- 150 and i only got 2 volts >:( .. there must be a direction of turns that is missing . . I am Ticked because that was a pain to wind . tell me the directions of turns for 3 and 7 and 150 . mine are all cw .. I am using your exact parts and wire ,

GADGET

CW, CCW, should not matter. I can flip my coil over and it goes from CW to CCW.

I wind mine over the top through the hole, under then back over the top CCW usually. This could also be explained the opposite way... Wind under then through the hole over the top then back under CW.

The winding direction is a complete circle starting with the base, then the collector, then the pickup until I hit the base then I go back with the pickup until I hit the collector again and I'm done.

What Transistor with what resistor are you using?

I am hooking up the base and collector coil wires that are in between the base and collector coil to the posistive. The base (Green) goes to the resistor then the base of the tranny. The collector (Red) goes straight to the collector of the tranny.

Also, did you check with the ends of the coils not twisted. Sometimes I end up with a short where they are twisted and it messes it up.

Hope this helps.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 14, 2009, 07:51:25 AM

@Bill,
ha ha ha, yes, the photos dont lie. :D

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 14, 2009, 05:19:27 AM
Jim:

435 volts? Wow! I really have to make one of these. Don't want to touch that one with the fingers.

Bill

Just remember, this thing is getting to the stage where everyone will have to be careful with it, expecially if you intend to load up capacitors with it, because it has punch.

Hazens1 bless his soul, and I have both received fair wallops off this circuit.

Now, heres a clue, can yo all figure it out, how to get more out of this circuit?

Bill, your above post is 200v lowerthan my best, :D
I have been able to raise the voltage to OVER wait for it, 600volts. ;D ;D ;D

Do I hold the record so far the highest output from any toroid on the forum so far?
If I dooooo then it wont be long before someone here brakes it in this forum.

OK a pic to proove it, its a little dim as I was in a rush, add 3 more volts to this what you see to see what I saw before I took the photo. ::)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 14, 2009, 08:09:37 AM

@Gadget,

Nice to see you again, and that is a lovely looking coil!!! will it work he he.. ;D

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 14, 2009, 07:31:37 AM
@All
Hi Guys . I have been very busy and sorry have not posted in a while . i am still on page 551 :(
@Hazen1
Man you have got to be kidding ! Here is my replication of your 3 - 7- 150 and i only got 2 volts >:( .. there must be a direction of turns that is missing . . I am Ticked because that was a pain to wind . tell me the directions of turns for 3 and 7 and 150 . mine are all cw .. I am using your exact parts and wire ,

GADGET

Here's the trick to getting some volts out of Hazens1 coil replication, and I'm sure everyone will be interested in this.

Gadget, I did what you did, (I assume that is), I measured the output on my DMM, without the diode and ceramic capacitor in place, I also read a low voltage, like 10v, I didnt think this was cool at all, and thought I had made a big mistake. (but I hadnt).
The transistor and the LED was getting HOT.

It turns out the LED is sinking/soaking up at least 100 volts.

Then I added Hazens1 second part of the circuit, 1N4004 and the pF cap and my volts shot up through the roof.

Try it my friend, I think you will be surprised.

Another thing is to, don't use a electro capacitor, use a ceramic as Hazens1 suggests, a 105k ceramic, I havent got any of them so I (cheated again) and used a 104k ceramic capacitor.

I also (cheated again siiiii) and wound 270turns on my secondary, on two layers.
3 turns on the base coil, 7 turns on the collector coil.
I used a 2N3055 transistor as I didn't have a TIP31 darlington transistor.

I also did something that I shouldnt have (but I did), I joined a second length of same size wire, just solded the ends, then used nail polish (clear stuff called ARTMATIC Nail Enamel Vernis a ongles) to insulate the wire, then used a single layer of black insulation tape to insulate the join properly.Then I wound over the 1st layer up and back to the start of the original wire.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 14, 2009, 08:20:16 AM

@ electricme

To get more vots out just add more turns to the pickup coil and/or reduce base resistor value. However, there is a lower limit to base resistor value after which the voltage starts to decrease.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 14, 2009, 08:37:44 AM

Quote from: hazens1 on May 14, 2009, 07:48:52 AM
CW, CCW, should not matter. I can flip my coil over and it goes from CW to CCW.

I wind mine over the top through the hole, under then back over the top CCW usually. This could also be explained the opposite way... Wind under then through the hole over the top then back under CW.

The winding direction is a complete circle starting with the base, then the collector, then the pickup until I hit the base then I go back with the pickup until I hit the collector again and I'm done.

What Transistor with what resistor are you using?

I am hooking up the base and collector coil wires that are in between the base and collector coil to the posistive. The base (Green) goes to the resistor then the base of the tranny. The collector (Red) goes straight to the collector of the tranny.

Also, did you check with the ends of the coils not twisted. Sometimes I end up with a short where they are twisted and it messes it up.

Hope this helps.

I have to say i am stumped . Using ***edit***tip31 and tried 10ohms all to way up to one meg ;) checked for shorts . nope . i untwisted them . o well . i have a bad headache now .ready to see what a hammer does to it :)bet it will spark then . thanks for the reply .

One question .. when you wound the 150 did you go backwards after you hit the end ? . i did . when i ran out of space i just continued the same direction over the and in between until i met the beginning .. I also tried 2n3904 and tip 121 . arrrh . I will try the diode and cap . i am using ceramic caps though ..

Hi Jim !!!!
thanks for the tips .. I can't imagine what the heck .. I have been dealing with low input stuff for so long now its permanent ::)

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 14, 2009, 08:45:02 AM

@all

How did I manage to get 636 volts out of Hazens1 circuit?

When Hazens1 drew it up he placed just 1 x 1N4004 diode and ceramic cap in series, this will rectify the AC and give you the DC, but this is "pulsed" DC, it loads up the ceramic almost instantly.

I got to thinking, there are 2 wires out so if we are rectifying 1 output, then theres a second component that is being wasted.

I then thought, if I put a bridge rectifier across this, then I would get out more, but I held back and did something that others here have not done.

With a AC output, you can configure the circuit to
   become a POSITAVE HIGH +
   then have a Zero or 0 or earth 0
   with a Neg - NEGATIVE LOW -

eg    (+) to 0 to (-) configuration

So I made up the DIODE - cap as seen in the Hazens circuit,
Then I made an identical second copy, and solded the diode - cap with
the cap joined to the 2nd wire output of the secondary.

0732 = circuit I altered to match up with Hazens1 circuit
0733 is a closeup of this circuit.

To connect to the output of this circuit,
The Positive is atatched between the top Diode and cap
The 0 point volt is the center tap
The Negative is attatched between the bottom diode and the cap.

There are 3 sets of output power here.
Between the (+) and the (0) is the    1st Test Point
Between the (0) and the (-) is the    2nd Test Point
Between the (+) and the (-) is the    3rd Test Point

Voltages between + and 0 should be the same between 0 and -
Voltages between + and - should be higher, but under double.

Oh yes, I intend to replace the 2 diodes with 1N4007s because this is approaching 1N4004 ratings.

I appolagise for not using Tiny Cad, someone took all my fancy cymbles away and it's stuck on a blank screen.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 14, 2009, 08:52:04 AM

@ gadgetmall

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 14, 2009, 08:37:44 AM
Using tip21

Transistor is critical. Only transistors so far shown to work are the 2N3055 and TIP31.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 14, 2009, 08:57:21 AM

Quote from: xee2 on May 14, 2009, 08:52:04 AM
@ gadgetmall

Transistor is critical. Only transistors so far shown to work are the 2N3055 and TIP31.

Yes that was a typo . using and tried tip31 and darlington tip121
Well i tried it 8 ways from Sunday and it wont work . Guess i will get a another toroid out of the batch and try again. I am Cursed. At least i can ligt 4 bright leds from 0.80 ma at .20 volts:)

gadget ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on May 14, 2009, 10:19:32 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 14, 2009, 08:37:44 AM
One question .. when you wound the 150 did you go backwards after you hit the end ? . i did . when i ran out of space i just continued the same direction over the and in between until i met the beginning ..

Gadget

Yes

Also, the single diode + cap measurement I believe is from Xee2's diagram. What's not in my diagram is the 600v 1a bridge rectifier that I use for measurements. I was using a couple of 200v 22uf electro caps in series to take voltage measurements after the bridge. Now I'm using a 104k 1000v blue Radio Shack ceramic after the bridge to measure the voltage since it charges instantly and has less chance of zapping me if I accidently touch the leads.

My coil starts singing when it is close to maximum voltage and is at it's loudest when I'm at maximum voltage as I'm adjusting the resistor pot. I've had many coils that sing. Not sure the frequency of the singing, but about half the people who have seen it cannot hear the singing so it must be close to the end of the human audible range. When I'm adjusting, I use a 10k ohm fine tune pot then when I get the right setting, I measure the pot then use the closest resistor I have. Going from lower to higher resistance while measureing voltage shows a voltage curve. Always use a pot to fine tune the coil. Each one has it's own preferred fequency and adjusting the resistance changes the freq.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 14, 2009, 10:22:16 AM

When i put a 104- 105 cap in series with the secondary i get 0 volts dc or ac ?? I have always got that . now if i put the cap in series with the diode then i get about 7 volts . this is the maximum i get even with a darlington . the cap is killing the circuit . it will also work as a normal jt lighting a bright led only at 10 ohms.anything else it stops oscillation . and yes i removed the led before testing.i have really never got over a few volts on any secondary i ever wound . the most was 10 volts and that was an attempt at an mk 2 . I have anew tiny Square Fl from goldmine and i really wanted to light it with the hazen1 setup but looks like i am one who is stuck in Low power mode... Now if i charge an electro cap up i get 80 -90 volts dc but as soon as i try to use it of course it drops instantly ..

MK1 . Are you here ?

Well i'll chat later have to run to the Rshack and finish a project for a customer . The Fugi he is getting has ran for 16 hours with 1 13 watt CFL and he is almost ready for the mail . L8r and thanks . I will wind another one when imy nerves calm down.

Gadgetmall ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on May 14, 2009, 12:57:09 PM

@all

All i can say is well done everyone !

@electricme

Change the diodes they are limited at around 400 volts, 1n4007 go up to 1000, sorry i still have over 850 volts, and that is 2 times 2 coils. 2 tubes ;)

@all

Now we need to make some improvement on the output circuit and should really look into finding a way to switch the coil , because loading the coil can affect the frequency set at the base , and change the volts output drastically.

Mark

Gadget nice to see you back !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 14, 2009, 01:03:18 PM

Hi gadget,
I don't know if this will help.
When I made my first Hazens replication, I mis-read the way he was turning the primary.

The way it should be is like a center tap.

One color ends and the next begins, but the way the turns go is a continuation . The thing that makes the oscillation happen is the fact that the joining wires/ the twisted wire which is actually a center tap, is the one that goes into the pos rail.

I hope this helps.
I was 1/3 of the way through mine yesterday when I got lots of volts etc. I am expecting this to work.

@Hazens,
I want to ask for a repeat explanation on exactly everything you have there.
What are the diodes and caps and where.
All of them, please.

@anyone,
I have a technical question now,
What is the easiest/best way to solder up the 3055 to make this a joulethief for HV?

thank you.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 14, 2009, 01:32:51 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 14, 2009, 05:19:27 AM
Jim:

435 volts? Wow! I really have to make one of these. Don't want to touch that one with the fingers.

Bill

YES it is time to start to experiment with more advanced coils.....you must realise the eb jt Tech are at least the key for lighting potential free enggy!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 14, 2009, 01:34:02 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 14, 2009, 01:03:18 PM
Hi gadget,
I don't know if this will help.
When I made my first Hazens replication, I mis-read the way he was turning the primary.

The way it should be is like a center tap.

One color ends and the next begins, but the way the turns go is a continuation . The thing that makes the oscillation happen is the fact that the joining wires/ the twisted wire which is actually a center tap, is the one that goes into the pos rail.

I hope this helps.
I was 1/3 of the way through mine yesterday when I got lots of volts etc. I am expecting this to work.

@Hazens,
I want to ask for a repeat explanation on exactly everything you have there.
What are the diodes and caps and where.
All of them, please.

@anyone,
I have a technical question now,
What is the easiest/best way to solder up the 3055 to make this a joulethief for HV?

thank you.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 14, 2009, 02:59:45 PM

Hi everybody,
I just got to the halfway mark of the newest 3T,7T now 78T well I made a few too many I will fix it, but first, some numbers and an observation.

First the observation.

No part of the secondary can get near enough to touch or overlap the primary.
I may stick a piece of fat wire to separate these. The light barely lights, but when I fiddle with the loops nearest the (as it happens) base coil the light suddenly lights up. or goes almost off.
MK1 has been saying this. I just want to repeat and agree with it.

so, here it is so far,
EDIT: I fixed the problem with a string here are the revised numbers. Please disregard the earlier ones.

3T,7T,78T
23.1V I am sure of this
11.6KHz I am not sure. At many scales there are good waves 100Hz or 100KHz
27.8mA
220r

change the base resistor:

93V
25KHz
10mA
1.6mA with 103 Base resistor cap also
2200r

I will take a wee break and make a table. I see this needs to be near the last report. I will put them together later, but just for now the volts plummeted and the frequency rose from the 50T secondary to the 78T secondary. I have a feeling the volts are higher IF I can keep the secondary away from the primary.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on May 14, 2009, 03:31:31 PM

New Diagram..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 14, 2009, 04:00:14 PM

Thanks Hazens. That is a great diagram.
I understood that you could light the light with or without the bridge and without any caps in that light part of the ckt.

Would you please verify this (no caps)?

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on May 14, 2009, 05:14:23 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 14, 2009, 04:00:14 PM
Thanks Hazens. That is a great diagram.
I understood that you could light the light with or without the bridge and without any caps in that light part of the ckt.

Would you please verify this (no caps)?

thanks,

jeanna

Yes, I could light the Floro with no diodes and no caps on the pickup coil. Sometimes I have to touch or ground one of the leads of the pickup coil to get the Floro to trigger. Most of the time it lights after a few seconds. With no caps on the pickup coil it is safe to touch one lead, but use caution when using this technique to trigger the Floro and never touch the pickup with a cap on it!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 14, 2009, 05:41:26 PM

Quote from: hazens1 on May 14, 2009, 05:14:23 PM
Yes, I could light the Floro with no diodes and no caps on the pickup coil. Sometimes I have to touch or ground one of the leads of the pickup coil to get the Floro to trigger. Most of the time it lights after a few seconds. With no caps on the pickup coil it is safe to touch one lead, but use caution when using this technique to trigger the Floro and never touch the pickup with a cap on it!

... but you always use the bridge?

I just don't get this kind of power, but I don't ever use the bridge for lighting the fluoro.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 14, 2009, 06:52:24 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on May 14, 2009, 01:03:18 PM
I have a technical question now,
What is the easiest/best way to solder up the 3055 to make this a joulethief for HV?

Just wrap a wire around leads and solder, but try not to use any more heat than needed. The collector is a bit harder. I would suggest using a screw and nut and wrapping wire around screw. Personally I just use clip leads because that makes it easy to try different transistors.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 14, 2009, 07:08:41 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 12, 2009, 12:08:41 AM
ArticKnight and Jeanna:

I just got my electronics goldmine "Specials" pages in the mail today and i see they have trigger coils at a very low price. (300+ volts) Since I am a long time fan of the Fuji circuit I was wondering if, as Fuji did, we could use the trigger coil after our JT base coil, which would replace the transformer in that circuit. My goal also, now, is to light some tubes from my earth battery and all I need are volts to do so. I may get some of these (less than $1 ea.) and give it a go. My uneducated guess is that, depending what is fed into them will reflect in the out put. What do you guys (no offense Jeanna) think?

Bill

sorry been a little busy, bill i would say as jenna did give it a go. let me give a quick run down tho from what i have learned to try to help you in this matter.

first of all start with a small tube, secondly dont limit yourself to using the electrical contacts as high frequency voltage travels on the outside of things and can light a florecent from being in contact with the glass itself!

as far as the electronics is concerned i would try having a cap as the "battery" in a typical joule thief setup but the positive end of the cap be on the positive ground and the negative end of the cap on the negative ground, the cap in parallel will hopefully build enough charge to run the jt, you should make use of a diode in this config to keep the current in the cap. or use a npn transistor on the cap with the base and collector on the positive end of the cap and the emitter running to a additional cap to collect a charge. this will allow the "earth battery" to discharge when charged into a cap and keep the electricity there. reference my picture to see the transistor in action.

once you get a JT running from this you will want it to go through a step up transformer, have a 3rd coil in the JT and have that power the primary on a step up transformer and the output if enough juice is available will be the highest voltage it can be.

keep in mind to raise the voltage you have to lower the amperage and if theres no amps left you cant get any more volts so it does have a "peak"

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on May 14, 2009, 07:38:36 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 14, 2009, 05:41:26 PM
... but you always use the bridge?

I just don't get this kind of power, but I don't ever use the bridge for lighting the fluoro.

jeanna

I can light the Floro with or without the bridge. I posted pics of the 4 inch tube being lit with and without the bridge.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 14, 2009, 09:18:33 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 13, 2009, 01:28:15 AM
Earth Battery Lights 100 LEDS!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaUBxUJrGzY

Here is the video. Youtube finally let me upload it. it is short but much more to come. Jeanna, thank you again!

Bill

great job man!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 14, 2009, 09:52:03 PM

Artic_Knight:

Thank you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 14, 2009, 10:13:25 PM

AARGH!!!
AAAARRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!!!!
AAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

I now have another doorstop made like the hazens coil. The first was like slayer then 3 like hazens. Will I ever learn?

I never get results when I wind the secondary all the way over and all the way back.

2 whole days!!!!

grrrr

The same work would be lighting the sky if I had done it like the MK1

What is with that?
Gadgetmall... did you ever get results?

It seems to put itself out when you go all the way over and all the way back.

grr

not happy... not smiling
jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 14, 2009, 10:15:44 PM

@xee

thanks for the info. I will use that soon.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 14, 2009, 10:47:46 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on May 14, 2009, 10:13:25 PM
What is with that?

Maybe you are shorting out the turns. If you have a real good ohm meter you can measure the ohms in 12 feet (or however much you used) of wire and then measure the ohms in your coil. If the coil is less it is shorted. It is not real hard to short through the enamel coating (I prefer using plastic coated wires for that reason).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 14, 2009, 10:53:58 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 14, 2009, 10:13:25 PM
AARGH!!!
AAAARRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!!!!
AAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

I now have another doorstop made like the hazens coil. The first was like slayer then 3 like hazens. Will I ever learn?

I never get results when I wind the secondary all the way over and all the way back.

2 whole days!!!!

grrrr

The same work would be lighting the sky if I had done it like the MK1

What is with that?
Gadgetmall... did you ever get results?

It seems to put itself out when you go all the way over and all the way back.

grr

not happy... not smiling
jeanna

I am having the same results as you Jeanna .Worst . 10 whole volts . WOOPE !! and i wound 150 turns . man its hard not to get kinks with all that wire hanging down the hall :D .. I think the wire going back is canceling the voltage kick somehow . There is a difference in cw and ccw . we proved this 489 pages ago . . I am stumped . now using 2n3055 . 10.45 volts rectified with 104 caps 1004 diodes . Bridges . nothing to write home about . . Will go for number 2 tomorrow night .. .
I am Using Good wire and have checked for shorts , Getting about 9 ohms on mine and i have even painted it with Clear Nail Polishto make sure its not shorting . Not that here <>

Hi Mark !!. I need your power !!!!! Move some over here .!!!

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 14, 2009, 11:06:31 PM

I agree with Xee2 on this. It just takes one small place (Edit: ok maybe 2 places) of mag wire that is not insulated and....poof, a short. Plus, consider that even if you didn't do anything to short it, there is always the possibility that when this stuff was made, probably in China, that maybe a batch or two did not get completely coated. I would do the continuity/ohms check just to see what that tells you. If you do have a short, you may be able to use Jim's nail polish trick once you locate it so maybe you don't have to unwind it.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on May 14, 2009, 11:20:32 PM

@all

My take on the output coil volt killing design .

First there is no real energy in the pickup coil , so it is susceptible to pulsing coil direction flow , the power can be stopped in the coil . This can help or kill the voltage.

I have not found a way to make a convincing design when the coil goes over the 360 mark. You are welcomed to try something else.

@gadget

I don't get it , you still did not get the desired output , maybe your not ready for it , stick around a bit , busy making kits , make some time for us , please . You are the resonance expert so far , i got so much stuff for you.

@electric

I did post this comment before but , it doesn't always get to port , probably my fault bad identification on the replies , yes the led drop the voltage big time , get better diode 1n4004 are god for 400 volts , you may have more then you think ! Nice multicore unit .
I have stuff for you also my friend.

@jeanna

Sorry to hear that , well it happen , what ever you can call that distraction to divine intervention is only judge by the results . ;)

Mark

Gadget you got a pic of your winding ? It can be some little detail , do you have other toroid like it ?
Did you test the toroid before committing to over 100 turns ?

We will get it to work !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 15, 2009, 12:01:24 AM

Hi everyone,

thanks for the suggestions. I don't have any shorts. 1.0 ohm resistance on 19 feet of wire.
I have about 40-50 feet still unused of telephone wire same 24 gauge as this which is showing 2 ohms resistance.

I think it is putting itself out.

In fact it is putting the PRIMARY out. It isn't oscillating at all. NO LED in bjtl will turn on even a speck.

I am just trying to think of a way to efficiently remove just some of this wire so I can rewind it like MK1. So far, I cannot.

Maybe I will toss it into the box with the other 3 that are wound this way.

Just please if you remember, remind me not to use this winding method again!!!! (I am not actually planning to need to be reminded.)

OK tomorrow is another day.

I can see about that 3 3/8 inch ferrite. I wonder how many turns it will take to get it into motion...

smiling again (rose colored lenses) ;) ,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 15, 2009, 12:24:16 AM

Hi Mark Its an exact replica of the hazen1 3 7 150 on goldmine toroid. i have several more roids like it . and yea i tested one of those toroid with 2 20 turns and its bright all the way thru the range of 5 ohms to 330k as a normal Jt . also tried another one 11 turns . very good normal jt . .. I assumed this Jt toroid was being used By many with excellent results . The hazen coil has to be rewound here . Im going to unwind it where it reached the other side before i go backwards and check it there . then im going to do it with 20 20 what ever .
At the present it will only oscillate at 10 ohms with a cap across the base . this is not good . I know . Its not matching with 3 7 . unbalanced some how and my transistors don't like it .no resonance at all . I don't think My Tank will help this sucker . .. ok back to you after i get thru with Being buzy :) Its just it was so perty i had to try ;) Now i need your power to light My fire !!!!!!!!!.I'm ready im ready . I can do big things with tiny inputs but i want Rf Juice now to burn and shock . My stuff i can put on my lips like a 9 volt battery .. you are on top of it .

Jim nice going mate . Tis awsome . and Hazen1 . you must have the magic toroid :-X

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 15, 2009, 12:53:56 AM

I decided to take out the turns in pairs and look at when the bjtl goes on.
It still isn't on in the regular way, but now after removing around 8 pairs of turns so around 134 turns IF I use the 103K which is the same as 100nF cap across the base resistor the light goes on blazing on.

but the secondary still only produces 0.25V as shown on the scope.

I will keep on unwinding in pairs and let you know when the BJTL returns to the on situation.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 15, 2009, 01:11:48 AM

@All,
I finally got TinyCAD to fireup, had to import its libraries by hand.
It turns out this is an install problem.

@Gadget,
Keep going with your toroid, it wil work.

I pulled my toroid out of the front panel of a standard tower PC, the power, LEDs and Turbo switch wires make a single turn through it.

Here is Hazens1 Circuit I have modified to my JT here

jim

PS can anyone tell me how to alter the width and heighth of this circuit, (the white bit or background) please.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on May 15, 2009, 01:21:48 AM

@gadget

You need less turns on the jt side , otherwise you will not get those high voltage easily.

@electricme

Don't forget to test other diodes ! those are 400 volt you may have more then that !

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 15, 2009, 01:22:49 AM

@ Jim:

Nice drawing. I did not pay attention to your warning and, while studying your drawing, I touched the yellow areas on my screen and I got a pretty good shock! Just kidding. Nice job.

@ All:

Uploading, as I type this, is yet another video. This time, I have illuminated a 48" tube with the earth battery/joule thief/supercaps circuit! I can't believe it works!!!

I will post a link shortly.

bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 15, 2009, 01:34:26 AM

@ All:

Here is my video of a 48" tube lit from my earth battery:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kL8ys8m0-4

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 15, 2009, 01:42:33 AM

@Jeanna,
How to solder up a 2N3055 transistor to make the HV output on Hazens1 way.

Quote from: jeanna on May 14, 2009, 01:03:18 PM
@anyone,
I have a technical question now,
What is the easiest/best way to solder up the 3055 to make this a joulethief for HV?

thank you.

jeanna

Hmmm this is a good way to stop the angries, lol. ;D

Put the 2N3055 upside down on the table, with the "pins" uppermost, as you can see on the pic below.

The pin on the left side is the Base, the pin on the right is the Emitter, the case is the Collector.

I used a ordinary file to remove the plateing so I could solder directly onto the brass caseing, this helps a lot in connecting.

WINDING info.
All turns in the same direction, over, through and under, back up outside and accross and down through and under etc etc.
All coils wound the same.
Hope this helps you.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 15, 2009, 02:04:50 AM

Good day jim,
I know I pronounced that wrong but...
Thanks for the description of the 3055 setup.

I took out 1/2 of that medium thing. It only barely flicks the littlest bit of the basic light. The secondary here has counteracted the primary!
By now it is almost half empty and there is still no waves above .3v on the secondary. Every once in 10 turns I pop in a different toroid to see if the set up is broken. nope, they all work fine. Just not this one. I looked at one of the other failures using this med. the one I made like slayer's it gives 17volts and 10KHz . nothing really, but at least something. The placement of the turns and that they are not perfect is most likely the difference there. I ran out of wire and skipped alot and it is way better.

OK I started the really big one.

It is much more gratifying.

I get 19volts from the primary plus a 7 turn secondary just to find any blind spots. I will continue tomorrow. I had to end on an encouraging note, or I would waste my sleep doing it.

Hey congratulations on your multilayered set up. I like it even though it is all rectified. Maybe someday you can unrectify it! and use the ac somewhere. HA!

@Bill.
I am on my way. wow 48 inch!
I knew you could do it!

Light up that bowling green and play some pins!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 15, 2009, 02:35:48 AM

Lower current with "new" coil. I changed collector coil from 5 turns to 10 turns. Tube sometimes needs a helping touch to get it to light.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on May 15, 2009, 03:00:32 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 15, 2009, 01:34:26 AM
@ All:

Here is my video of a 48" tube lit from my earth battery:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kL8ys8m0-4

Bill

i gave it 5 stars bill. i see just now you got my note about lighting 2 like you did before. i wonder how many led chains it will light up? if you're lighting four foot fluoros it should have enough to run 4 chains of 100 leds also?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: mikem_2au on May 15, 2009, 03:01:04 AM

hi all,
i had a go at @hazens1 design today. i could only
fit about 190 turns on a unknown dark green toroid.
this would not light a 4Watt fluro until i connected the
end of the pickup to the base, the start to one end
of the fluro, and the other end of the fluro to the
negative rail, this is how the capacitor is connected
in the fugi circuit.
i'v modified @hazens1 diagram to show this, the
diode isn't needed, this is the diode @gadgetmall
shorts in the fuji circuit. now my fluro lights without
the need of touching the tube as i've needed to do in previous experiments.
just thought this may help someone.

the lines at the bottom of the pic show how i wound
the toroid, just felt like doing something different.

mike..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 15, 2009, 03:19:11 AM

Wilby:

I was also thinking that. Basically what I have been doing is going back and recreating all of my Fuji experiments only using the EB instead of the AA battery. So.....the 200 leds, 300 and yes....400 are on my list. I am probably going to hit the wall soon with these two 10 farad caps. Once work picks up again, hopefully, I can get that 3,000 F cap and then....look out. Thanks for watching it and also for the rating.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 15, 2009, 03:38:51 AM

@ mikem_2au

Thanks for the circuit mods. I will try this and see if it eliminates the need to touch my tube.

EDIT: Are you sure you have pickup coil connected to base? I though it was connected to collector coil in Fuji circuit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 15, 2009, 06:43:49 AM

@Bill,
I went and took a looksee at your latest Utube video showing the 48" fluro being lit up.
That is excellent, I couldnt access the leave a message as Im not on my regular PC, ha ha.
5 stars mate. :D

Just an idea I have for you, leave several batteries on charge via the earth battery, all day long then connect them up to run the fluro at night. Someone here suggested you/ we use a LDR to switch on a transistor at sunset, it WILL work. ;)

Australian slang strine
@[Arvo] [Bluey], (you will no who you are) 8)

[G'day] [mate], is the way to say it, said like (Gu'd - day) At sunup, I got rid of the [Bush oyster] lol.
Isn't this Jule Thief a [bottler].
Some people think the JT isnt their [Bowl of rice], but it's [Beaut].

I gotta go to [Brisvegas] next week for a fello [Cain toad], so I'll pick up some bits for the JT if I don't [cark it] on the way. I might [Chuck a sickie] to do this.

I will keep the [Mintz plates] open on the [Frog and toad] on the way.

I see you were mad as a [cut snake], you were really [Spewin] before, never mind, just sit down with a [dogs eye] and calm down a bit, but look out for the [Dunny budgies], [Fair dinkum], I think you are [flatout like a lizard drinkin] with all the research you do, I'm off to see some [Aerial pingpong] with a [Sanger] later on tonight.
Wish it was the [Bush telly] instead, boiling the [Billy] and munching on a [Bikkie].

Tomorra, this [Banana bender] must get a [Scratcy], and if [She'll be right], I'll [Skite] and [Shout] you all if I win.

Now I gotta take a [Squizz] at Bill's video and [veg out], then I will see if anyone is trying to [White ant] my [Yakka] on the JT.

I'm [grinning like a shot fox].

hooroo

jim

OK Jeanna, and others, here is a web site to cut your teeth on ausie slang. ;D
http://www.koalanet.com.au/australian-slang.html

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: mikem_2au on May 15, 2009, 09:28:51 AM

@xee2, yes, the pickup is connected to the base.
( the end not the start of the winding)
i have sacrificed 2 Fuji transformers to find out what
went where, so i could try and replicate with a toroid.
I will try and post same pics of what i found soon.

mike..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 15, 2009, 11:34:56 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 15, 2009, 03:19:11 AM
Wilby:

I was also thinking that. Basically what I have been doing is going back and recreating all of my Fuji experiments only using the EB instead of the AA battery. So.....the 200 leds, 300 and yes....400 are on my list. I am probably going to hit the wall soon with these two 10 farad caps. Once work picks up again, hopefully, I can get that 3,000 F cap and then....look out. Thanks for watching it and also for the rating.

Bill

Bill Great Going . I figured a super cap would run all that stuff . Now i guess i need to make us a Flip Flopper to file from the dead cap to a Charged one . This only applies to the little suoer caps . the ULTRA cap will run them for days on end . I now have several Monster 650 farad caps that run jts for 4 days . I have also built a regulator to carry the 2.7 volts down to 1.6 to run fugi stuff. I am a little disapointed at my hazens replication because this would have been refined by me to the least amount of input but that ain't the problem . it just dont work with the amount of turns on the primary Jt . Now the LPJT has 100 turns primary center tapped and works on a lot of different toroids . I might hook this one up backwards and see what it does :)

@electricme . I love Australia !! your too cool man .
@ mark . Less? ok ill go 3 x3 and see !!

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: mikem_2au on May 15, 2009, 11:40:52 AM

it's a bit late but i think I've got it write. if not,
let me know.

Fuji Transformer as i see it.. (looking down on to it)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 15, 2009, 12:23:24 PM

@ Gadget:

Thank you!

Wow man, 4 days is too cool! I really want to get a 3,000 farad cap but, work has been a little slow lately (which is why I have time for these experiments) and it will be a while before I can afford one. In the meantime, I might want to order one of your caps. That is a good price you have on them. I am only using 20 farads now so the jump to 650 F would be significant.

I feel like I am cheating a little by going back to the Fuji but since others on here have hand wound toroids that exceed the Fuji (not me) I feel like I can eventually learn to do that and switch later on.

Don't give up on your Hazens replication just yet. It is probably something simple that is wrong like Jim said. I have no idea as I am not that far along yet.

Thanks again and keep us posted on your lighting project.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 15, 2009, 12:24:28 PM

@ mikem_2au

Quote from: mikem_2au on May 15, 2009, 09:28:51 AM
@xee2, yes, the pickup is connected to the base.
( the end not the start of the winding)
i have sacrificed 2 Fuji transformers to find out what
went where, so i could try and replicate with a toroid.
I will try and post same pics of what i found soon.

mike..

Thanks for doing this. It is exactly what someone has needed to do but everyone was too lazy and my vision is not good enough to let me do it. Your diagrams are great.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on May 15, 2009, 12:48:19 PM

@gadget

Before undoing every thing try putting a bifillar coil in the basic jt way starting and ending at the same spot the pickup coil does .

Connect it to the jt circuit ( make sure to use a 2n2222 or 2n3409 so i could get a idea , resistor should be under 1k)if you cant get more then 30 volts then its a bad toroid.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 15, 2009, 01:04:39 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 14, 2009, 10:47:46 PM
@ jeanna

Maybe you are shorting out the turns. If you have a real good ohm meter you can measure the ohms in 12 feet (or however much you used) of wire and then measure the ohms in your coil. If the coil is less it is shorted. It is not real hard to short through the enamel coating (I prefer using plastic coated wires for that reason).

What do you mean short through the enamel? I think that must have happened to my on one of my Hazen coil attempts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 15, 2009, 01:30:41 PM

@ mikem_2au

I made a schematic of your diagram but it does not look correct. Could the 220 ohm resistor be on the base of the transistor as in the modified schematic? This would make more sense electrically.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 15, 2009, 01:56:54 PM

Here is what I will try today.

I had a very 3D morning thinking about how the MK designs work and the one yesterday didn't.
(The part that was so amazing to me was that it was able to stop the working of the primary, because the basic joule thief light stopped working.)
I realize that the MK is basically a center tapped secondary.

The first winding is A the second down direction is B but when it crosses the centerline and continues in the same direction BUT is on the opposite side, it is effectively the same as turning the turning direction and therefore the pulse direction around. So when the second side of B is finished and you come back to the center you are winding in the A direction, but since it is on the opposite side it is also effectively opposite to the original A winding. You can have as many turns as you planned and they are all wound in the opposite way from the ones they are adjacent to, but they are just like one wound with a center tap.

This should mean that if I take yesterdays thing half way out, then make a 1/2 turn and continue to the end. each wire will be operating in the opposite direction on each half of the toroid and it should do everything it is supposed to do.

I don't really expect too many people to follow this. I am very spatial and I can see it, but maybe someone else can. (So, I offer it here.)

I will let you know.

And have a look at the center point of this baby (opposite the colored primary wires) . does it not seem to be making some small change here? I don't know.

It may take another 2 hours, but if it works, it will give another option for winding to us.

@stprue,
I was thinking it might not be a short on yours either. So, there is no verdict yet.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 15, 2009, 02:41:27 PM

OK
well, I added back 10 more turns 5 and 5 but after a twist in the wire which would make it turn around.
There is a tiny flash of the light when I put in or take out the battery but the basic JT led still only lights when there is a 103 or larger cap across the base resistor.

I will put this away now.

@MK1,
BTW, the way Hazens does the primary works very well. I have used it and tried it against other designs many times and it does as well or better.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 15, 2009, 04:50:36 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 15, 2009, 01:56:54 PM
Here is what I will try today.

I had a very 3D morning thinking about how the MK designs work and the one yesterday didn't.
(The part that was so amazing to me was that it was able to stop the working of the primary, because the basic joule thief light stopped working.)
I realize that the MK is basically a center tapped secondary.

The first winding is A the second down direction is B but when it crosses the centerline and continues in the same direction BUT is on the opposite side, it is effectively the same as turning the turning direction and therefore the pulse direction around. So when the second side of B is finished and you come back to the center you are winding in the A direction, but since it is on the opposite side it is also effectively opposite to the original A winding. You can have as many turns as you planned and they are all wound in the opposite way from the ones they are adjacent to, but they are just like one wound with a center tap.

This should mean that if I take yesterdays thing half way out, then make a 1/2 turn and continue to the end. each wire will be operating in the opposite direction on each half of the toroid and it should do everything it is supposed to do.

I don't really expect too many people to follow this. I am very spatial and I can see it, but maybe someone else can. (So, I offer it here.)

I will let you know.

And have a look at the center point of this baby (opposite the colored primary wires) . does it not seem to be making some small change here? I don't know.

It may take another 2 hours, but if it works, it will give another option for winding to us.

@stprue,
I was thinking it might not be a short on yours either. So, there is no verdict yet.

jeanna

Jeanna

I am very spatial too ......but you lost me with this one.

I think if we had Spatial Olympics here you would win :)

At all

I am trying to make the version of the JT that does not have a resistor .
I have the schematic but I have not been able to make it work.

Can anyone give any tips .......or even an idea of how far back to to try to find more on it ?

Is the orange part required?

Thanks

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 15, 2009, 05:47:49 PM

@ resonanceman

Quote from: resonanceman on May 15, 2009, 04:50:36 PM
Is the orange part required?

No. I think the idea is to use one of the 3 options presented. If you are using the output from the pickup coil then the orange part is not required.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 15, 2009, 07:33:25 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 15, 2009, 05:47:49 PM
@ resonanceman

No. I think the idea is to use one of the 3 options presented. If you are using the output from the pickup coil then the orange part is not required.

Thanks Xee
That makes sense .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 15, 2009, 07:57:26 PM

Quote from: stprue on May 15, 2009, 01:04:39 PM
What do you mean short through the enamel? I think that must have happened to my on one of my Hazen coil attempts.

If you have some shellack or something similar you could dip your toroid in that .

As I undersand it the people that used to clean large motors for a living cleaned out the windings then dipped them in shellack just to be sure that they did not have a problem when the motor was started again .

They probably have a newer product for that kind of stuff now.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: mikem_2au on May 15, 2009, 08:03:16 PM

@xee2 thanks for your comments and time,
your schematic looks wrong, i have edited my
pic to try and make it clearer for you, hope this helps.

mike..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 15, 2009, 08:19:41 PM

@ mikem_2au

Quote from: mikem_2au on May 15, 2009, 08:03:16 PM
your schematic looks wrong

Yes, it looks like it is. I did not interpret your diagram correctly. Thanks for the corrections.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on May 15, 2009, 08:29:42 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on May 15, 2009, 04:50:36 PM
At all

I am trying to make the version of the JT that does not have a resistor .
I have the schematic but I have not been able to make it work.

Can anyone give any tips .......or even an idea of how far back to to try to find more on it ?

Is the orange part required?

Thanks

gary

This is a picture I created; the colored parts are all optional points where voltage can be derived.

Here is a picture of a JTC running without a resistor, and instead a capacitor. In the drawing you reposted, the capacitor can either be as shown, or instead linked to the positive terminal. If you look at the pictures, you can see there is no resisted path to base, there is only a virtual circuit there where induction or flyback opens the transistor.

This type of circuit is hard to control when it comes to frequency, however, it will reach reach resonance, and it can then be tuned by adjusting the capacitor's capacitance instead.

( there is a delta to this of course, the circuit will only work within a certain range )
*edits:

I apologize for the mess, but I used different transistor in these pictures, it didn't seem to matter which one, the both worked, the little one is a 2n2222 and the big one is an NTE210.

Coils for the base and collector are turned side by side..in this instance, they are a twisted pair, and the pickup coil is 3 winds to one wind of twisted pair ( hence the notation in the schematic ) ..i have gotten this to work in other ways, however, this is the best example.

Also, the third picture is an axially molded inductor, with an inductor around it. This circuit runs at high frequency, the axially molded inductor contains magnetic materials ( ferrite ) and looks like a resistor. This circuit also does not use a resistor.

( I guess these were the last experiments I did with this circuit before finals started )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 15, 2009, 08:33:16 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on May 15, 2009, 12:48:19 PM
@gadget

Before undoing every thing try putting a bifillar coil in the basic jt way starting and ending at the same spot the pickup coil does .

Connect it to the jt circuit ( make sure to use a 2n2222 or 2n3409 so i could get a idea , resistor should be under 1k)if you cant get more then 30 volts then its a bad toroid.

Hi . Same results BUT i took an identical toroid and would 11 turn Bi Normal jt without all the 150 turns and it lights bright from 5 ohms to 100 k SO i wound on the other side 15 turns secondary put a diode and 104 cap on it . 39 volts . I would the secondary opposite ccw . so i added another 20 turns 59 volts .. This is with 2n3904 . Ok now i see . the secondary HAS to be opposite wound i think . Now i will try the same setup winding the secondary the same way as the bifialiar 11 turns and see what the results are . I am pretty sure i can keep wrapping wire on the secondary and increase the volts now . this is the highest i have see so far with these toroids with so little windings .what you think mark ?

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 15, 2009, 08:42:08 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 15, 2009, 01:56:54 PM
Here is what I will try today.

I had a very 3D morning thinking about how the MK designs work and the one yesterday didn't.
(The part that was so amazing to me was that it was able to stop the working of the primary, because the basic joule thief light stopped working.)
I realize that the MK is basically a center tapped secondary.

The first winding is A the second down direction is B but when it crosses the centerline and continues in the same direction BUT is on the opposite side, it is effectively the same as turning the turning direction and therefore the pulse direction around. So when the second side of B is finished and you come back to the center you are winding in the A direction, but since it is on the opposite side it is also effectively opposite to the original A winding. You can have as many turns as you planned and they are all wound in the opposite way from the ones they are adjacent to, but they are just like one wound with a center tap.

This should mean that if I take yesterdays thing half way out, then make a 1/2 turn and continue to the end. each wire will be operating in the opposite direction on each half of the toroid and it should do everything it is supposed to do.

I don't really expect too many people to follow this. I am very spatial and I can see it, but maybe someone else can. (So, I offer it here.)

I will let you know.

And have a look at the center point of this baby (opposite the colored primary wires) . does it not seem to be making some small change here? I don't know.

It may take another 2 hours, but if it works, it will give another option for winding to us.

@stprue,
I was thinking it might not be a short on yours either. So, there is no verdict yet.

jeanna

Jeanna out of the three hazen reps did you ever wind the secondary opposite from primary's ? I think this is the problem . I did a test winding an 11 turn bi jt on one side and then another 15 in the opposite direction . I get a Good Higher voltage now . I tried the same 11 turns on top of th e150 hazen and still get 10 volts and hard to control so its is killing the core somehow .
with 11 on a blank toroid its perfectly tuned . now i am going to add 80 on the other side and try not to overlap and see if when i do over lap it goes down or not .

Gadget

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 15, 2009, 09:49:03 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on May 15, 2009, 07:57:26 PM

If you have some shellack or something similar you could dip your toroid in that .

As I undersand it the people that used to clean large motors for a living cleaned out the windings then dipped them in shellack just to be sure that they did not have a problem when the motor was started again .

They probably have a newer product for that kind of stuff now.

they dip the coil of motors and transformer in "shellac"(resin or similar stuff) to minimize Mechanical losses and/or Stray losses.
for re-inforcing the insulation too, but it is a protection against temperature then for re-insulating the wires.

you would make a better job if you were to dip your wires in the resin and let them dry before winding your coils.
you will never be sure you have properly re-insulated your wires perfectly othewise.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on May 15, 2009, 10:12:46 PM

@gadget

Are you sure the toroid is the same one from goldmine ?
I know it is a decent one .

The diode used are also really important in testing , i like the 1n4007 because there good up to 1000 volts and i made test and compare different
bridges , and get huge difference in voltage like over 50 , the 4007 don't drop it much , they are not germanium but real good .

Have you use the page 478 guide.

Using that method i can quickly determine , the quality of toroid a good one i usually get 70 to 100 volt dc(rectified) at 1k.

Ok some idea for you , now that you have almost stopped the battery draw, why not go one more step , the base coil resonance is good but if both the coil are in resonance , noting should slip away .

The pickup coil can easily power other transistor, the tricycle is a good proof of that , i plan now on setting it in a endless amplifier way .

Have you tried the collector coil resonance ?

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 15, 2009, 10:21:12 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on May 15, 2009, 10:12:46 PM
@gadget

Are you sure the toroid is the same one from goldmine ?
I know it is a decent one .

The diode used are also really important in testing , i like the 1n4007 because there good up to 1000 volts and i made test and compare different
bridges , and get huge difference in voltage like over 50 , the 4007 don't drop it much , they are not germanium but real good .

Have you use the page 478 guide.

Using that method i can quickly determine , the quality of toroid a good one i usually get 70 to 100 volt dc(rectified) at 1k.

Ok some idea for you , now that you have almost stopped the battery draw, why not go one more step , the base coil resonance is good but if both the coil are in resonance , noting should slip away .

The pickup coil can easily power other transistor, the tricycle is a good proof of that , i plan now on setting it in a endless amplifier way .

Have you tried the collector coil resonance ?

Mark

Hi Mark . Of Coarse i'm sure they are from goldmine. and the 150 turns from the hazen is killing the core no doubt at all . Jeanna sees it and i see it . The Jt 3 and 7 does not light a light. It will light a little with a 10 ohm resistor . 5 oms no light 15 ohms no light 10 ohms a little light . I have scrapped that one and wound another one using bell wire . 11 turns Bifilar on one side and 70 secondary on the other side . I get 115 volts . The Difference is i would the secondary the opposite direction than the primary and i used bell wire . I got 30 turns then checked the volatge it was 35 i then wound another layer and then another and another 4 layers thick and 115 volts DC . this is rectified with a 1007 and using a 104 cap . Its higher but it still is not what i am looking for but i am smiling cause i am lighting up a RED neon bright !! . I have a few more blanks and i might wind them later on tonight ..edit got 128 volts using two 1n4007 one cap from a fugi and 330 ohm resistor Battery is a nicad 1.110volts. I noticed if i turn the diodes around the other way i get 10 volts ??????? and the last photo a small portion of this months windings . what a mess

Gadget

gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 15, 2009, 11:00:08 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on May 15, 2009, 08:29:42 PM
This is a picture I created; the colored parts are all optional points where voltage can be derived.

Here is a picture of a JTC running without a resistor, and instead a capacitor. In the drawing you reposted, the capacitor can either be as shown, or instead linked to the positive terminal. If you look at the pictures, you can see there is no resisted path to base, there is only a virtual circuit there where induction or flyback opens the transistor.

This type of circuit is hard to control when it comes to frequency, however, it will reach reach resonance, and it can then be tuned by adjusting the capacitor's capacitance instead.

( there is a delta to this of course, the circuit will only work within a certain range )
*edits:

I apologize for the mess, but I used different transistor in these pictures, it didn't seem to matter which one, the both worked, the little one is a 2n2222 and the big one is an NTE210.

Coils for the base and collector are turned side by side..in this instance, they are a twisted pair, and the pickup coil is 3 winds to one wind of twisted pair ( hence the notation in the schematic ) ..i have gotten this to work in other ways, however, this is the best example.

Also, the third picture is an axially molded inductor, with an inductor around it. This circuit runs at high frequency, the axially molded inductor contains magnetic materials ( ferrite ) and looks like a resistor. This circuit also does not use a resistor.

( I guess these were the last experiments I did with this circuit before finals started )

Thanks jadaro

I am sure that your reply will help alot

I am calling it quits for tonight .
It has been one of those days . :)
Tomorow I will probably find sone silly mistake that SHOULD be almost impossible to miss .

I am not real sure about the frequency thing .

I will have to find a way to keep it in resonance .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 15, 2009, 11:35:39 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 15, 2009, 10:21:12 PM
... Of Course i'm sure they are from goldmine. and the 150 turns from the hazen is killing the core no doubt at all . Jeanna sees it and i see it . The Jt 3 and 7 does not light a light....

. The Difference is i wound the secondary the opposite direction than the primary and i used bell wire ...

Hi gadget.

I cannot answer your question.
ALL my primaries go in two directions.
It is therefore impossible to say that the secondary is wrapped opposite to the primary.

But what I described earlier is very close to what you said about the 2 directions.

Ours are too different to relate exactly, I guess.

Anyway,
I think the thing that makes the MK designs a winner every time, is that the secondary wires go in both directions as well as the primary. So, both the primary and the secondary are going in 2 directions.

the medium toroid 5/$1 is an OK toroid, but it is not great. The choke type toroids are better. I am sure.
It is OK and may be OK enough.

@All,
I finished a table on something I was doing last week before I jumped into the Hazens non replication. :(

The frequency range went from
38KHz to 111KHz and the volts went from
60V to 375V. -- in opposite directions, of course.

(This is on the 3T,4T,92T that I have made all those tables on.)

I found a resistance (560r) that produces a voltage 154V with a frequency of 20KHz. the shape of this wave is not a constant one, and looks like the resonance waves seen on barry's coilgun site. High then lower and lower and lower then high again.

I will see what this can do. It has enough constant waves to look like ac (not a straight line with one very high occasional spike. That is what happens in the high voltage low frequency ranges)

Looks good to me.

so, now I have to make it do something...

The thing about the shape of the waves is this. While I was testing it with the pot I saw regular waves some had bumps on them, but they all looked about the same height. Then I chose a resistor in between 2 that gave me 160V and 185V. But when I put it in place the shape of the wave changed. I will try it anyway. It reminds me of something gadget said about using a pot. but this was the reverse.. Oh well, It seems there is always something unexpected.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Thaelin on May 15, 2009, 11:57:18 PM

Just curious, but has anyone tried to wind the first layer of the pickup coil and then just jump over the two small coils and wind the second layer? This would approximate what tesla did with his pancake which made it perform better. I am still in my work week so have no time to play.
On winding torrids, I have found that I have to be very careful when looping the wire through the hole not to scrape it on the edges as they are usually sharp. Have scared a lot of wire and had to throw it out. This is especially true of the choke torrids out of old PC power supplies. Most of mine have been encased in a plastic cover which I remove to get the wire right on the surface of the torrid.
And last but not least, I did notice on another board where the person had a conductor running the length of the tube to help light the gas. This on a 48" tube. May be an easy way to get more light for the input.

thaelin

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 16, 2009, 12:04:51 AM

Quote from: jeanna on May 15, 2009, 11:35:39 PM
Hi gadget.

I cannot answer your question.
ALL my primaries go in two directions.
It is therefore impossible to say that the secondary is wrapped opposite to the primary.

But what I described earlier is very close to what you said about the 2 directions.

Ours are too different to relate exactly, I guess.

Anyway,
I think the thing that makes the MK designs a winner every time, is that the secondary wires go in both directions as well as the primary. So, both the primary and the secondary are going in 2 directions.

the medium toroid 5/$1 is an OK toroid, but it is not great. The choke type toroids are better. I am sure.
It is OK and may be OK enough.

@All,
I finished a table on something I was doing last week before I jumped into the Hazens non replication. :(

The frequency range went from
38KHz to 111KHz and the volts went from
60V to 375V. -- in opposite directions, of course.

(This is on the 3T,4T,92T that I have made all those tables on.)

I found a resistance (560r) that produces a voltage 154V with a frequency of 20KHz. the shape of this wave is not a constant one, and looks like the resonance waves seen on barry's coilgun site. High then lower and lower and lower then high again.

I will see what this can do. It has enough constant waves to look like ac (not a straight line with one very high occasional spike. That is what happens in the high voltage low frequency ranges)

Looks good to me.

so, now I have to make it do something...

The thing about the shape of the waves is this. While I was testing it with the pot I saw regular waves some had bumps on them, but they all looked about the same height. Then I chose a resistor in between 2 that gave me 160V and 185V. But when I put it in place the shape of the wave changed. I will try it anyway. It reminds me of something gadget said about using a pot. but this was the reverse.. Oh well, It seems there is always something unexpected.

jeanna

. Hi Jeanna . Well i am getting some =where tonight at least with the neon . If you take two wires for the primary and wind them the same way the same time its going one way . at the start of the wire from the bottom of the toroid thru the middle up and around would be clockwise so My bifilar primary is always one direction . then i start the secondary in reverse on this one that is lighting a neon . at the start from the top thru the middle around and back in the middle is counter clockwise . At least that's the way i see it :) See My Mess above .. Junk ...but some of them run for weeks ., I need new proto boards cause im soldering everything i am doing . Mk style is next on My list also . I need that Hv to light a cool Little square Floro i got from goldmine for a buck ..

Albert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 16, 2009, 12:42:06 AM

Thanks Al,

I just really like the MK design. It has worked from day one. I am surprised you have not tried it yet.

On the subject ot the primary. A center tap makes the thing go in both directions. You wind the whole thing in the same way so any new colored wire just continues the same direction. Once that center tap is in the battery rail the electricity goes both ways.

I can actually show this in my 2 tiered circuit.

One whole light circuit relies on being one side of the 2 directional primary. It isn't a primary anymore once it is on the second tier, but I don't know what else to name it. It goes from the pos rail around the toroid in the opposite way from the other one which also lights a led or fifty in parallel, and it is independent of the other. They relate. I can shut off the flow to either one or both, but what I do to one of them does not always effect any other one.

@Thaelin,
The MK design is doing the thing you are talking about. It isn't a flat pancake, but it is the effect. I tried to describe this this morning. It is just one of those things. It is easy to see, but really hard to describe.

Try making a MK1. I think you will be pleased.

@All,
so, if I have 154 volts and I connect it to a light bulb that requires 120 volts and is rated at 7.5 watts, I should be able to get that to light using the secondary wires . I only need 62.5mA at 120 volts to get to 7.5 watts, so what makes this so hard to achieve? The battery certainly has that much amps ready for draw. I put a lithium in the holder today.

?? ?? ??

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 16, 2009, 12:58:17 AM

@ mikem_2au

I think this schematic is correct. Thanks for the help and thanks for taking the time to figure out the Fuji circuit. I am not sure when I will get to it, but I will be trying various ways to eliminate the need to touch the tube to get it light.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 16, 2009, 01:30:01 AM

I hit over 1000 volts using a darlington tip121 with a 100 {50x2) turn centertapped primary and 108 secondary !!! Its out putting that weird voltage and frequency the fugi does to meters and over flows the meters . i tried it on 2 meters !! interesting the Tv started to Buzz and Make static and kill the picture .. I am tired its 1:30 am . i will take some pictures tomorrow .
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 16, 2009, 02:08:00 AM

This circuit does not seem to have any problem turning on (no need to touch tube to get it to light). 100 turn coil can be either polarity.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on May 16, 2009, 03:25:32 AM

Quote from: resonanceman on May 15, 2009, 11:00:08 PM
Thanks jadaro

I am sure that your reply will help alot

I am calling it quits for tonight .
It has been one of those days . :)
Tomorow I will probably find sone silly mistake that SHOULD be almost impossible to miss .

I am not real sure about the frequency thing .

I will have to find a way to keep it in resonance .

gary

It's important to note that the capacitor must be COMPLETELY discharged before attempting to get it to work. I recommend shorting it out with a component lead, or a screw driver ...this tends to snap the circuit on. DO this only briefly though, or the full amount of current will flow to the base and ruin the transistor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on May 16, 2009, 06:43:10 AM

Thalen mentioned scraping the enamel off his wire on the sharp edges of the torroid.

A dremmel tool with a rubber cone bit should round off the sharp edges nicely.

Great work by you peeps BTW...the spirit of cooperation makes opening this thread an anticipated pleasure.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 16, 2009, 06:53:04 AM

@ Cap:

Good idea but, it won't work. Ferrite is like 9 on the Mohs scale of relative hardness, with diamond being 10. For comparison, glass is 5.5. Now, if you put diamond paste on that rubber, it would do it but it would take a long time because that is a lapping procedure. The toroids I got from electronics goldmine all had their edges broken at a 45 degree angle. (Nice machining job) One could get some diamond plated files and use a little water and break the edges if they are sharp. Trust me, this stuff is hard.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on May 16, 2009, 07:03:18 AM

Mornin' Bill,

This is obviously a problem for many people...you would think they would smooth the edges on their moulds...thereby producing smooth toroids.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 16, 2009, 07:08:34 AM

Cap:

The ones I have were machined on the edges, and very nicely too. I think it is the ones folks salvage out of power supplies that might not have had the finish treatment. But, in reality, most of these probably come from China, and we already know of their lack of quality control.

Good morning to you as well. Good to see you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on May 16, 2009, 08:41:30 AM

Edit: Added output volts measured using a Radio Shack Blue 561-1kv (560pf, 1000v, Ceramic) capacitor on the Pickup coil.

@All

Sorry that some have had trouble replicating my setup. I did a little expirimenting to try to find the best setup. I'm still working, but I thought I would share some preliminary results with you.

I took some of my Goldmine 5/$1 toroids and wound a 7t Base, 7t Collector the way I usually do. (Wind the Base CCW Over, Thru the Hole, Under then Back Up. Then the Collector Starting at the End of the Base CCW Over, Thru the Hole, Under then Back Up.)

Then I wound a 21t Pickup various ways. All using a 1k ohm Base Resistor on a 2n2222 Transistor. All starting at the End of the Collector.

1. CCW Over, Thru the Hole, Under then Back Up for 11 turns then 180Â° back Up through the Hole, Over then Down CW 10 turns back to start of Pickup. This gave 5 measly volts at 1.2v, 70ma input. (Is this how some of you were winding the 2nd layer?)

2. CCW Over, Thru the Hole, Under then Back Up for 11 turns then CW Over, Thru the Hole, Under then Back Up 10 turns back to start of Pickup. This gave 70v at 1.2v, 70ma input. (This is how I wound the 3t-7t-150t, 400v Floro circuit.)

3. CCW Over, Thru the Hole, Under then Back Up for 21 turns single layer. This gave 70v at 1.2v, 66ma input. 1 layer seems more efficient then 2 layers, no suprise there ;)

For try #4, see the quote below..

Quote from: Thaelin on May 15, 2009, 11:57:18 PM
Just curious, but has anyone tried to wind the first layer of the pickup coil and then just jump over the two small coils and wind the second layer?

thaelin

4. CCW Over, Thru the Hole, Under then Back Up for 11 turns then JUMP back to the start of the Pickup and CCW Over, Thru the Hole, Under then Back Up for 10 turns. This gave 82v at 1.2v, 70ma input. Wow 15% better output voltage from this setup ;D Thanks Thaelin :)

I've got more testing to do. Now I'm going to try varying the way I wind the Base and Collector coils and see how this affects things, but I know how I'm going to wind my next Major Pickup Coil 8)

Re-measured all setups using a 560pf, 1000v, Ceramic capacitor on the Pickup coil to get peak spike voltage.

1. Capacitor measured volts = 7v
2. Capacitor measured volts = 118v
3. Capacitor measured volts = 122v
4. Capacitor measured volts = 134v

hazens1

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 16, 2009, 10:04:22 AM

ok here is the weird bifilar / secondary setup on a large black toroid with a know Value given to me by Greg for EB research . the number is visible . Its low perm high flux . I am getting over 1900 volts . this setup Takes the Tv out . Im on satellite and the tv is about 8 feet away .The Voltage is fluctuating as i get near the setup .I need to Box this one .. using tip121 50x2 primary CW 108 secondary (green) ccw . I tried this on two meters one ol'ed on the 750 volt scale . this one is set on the higest setting 300+ and the meter can measure 2000 volts before it Ol's

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 16, 2009, 10:07:41 AM

Quote from: jeanna on May 16, 2009, 12:42:06 AM
if I have 154 volts and I connect it to a light bulb that requires 120 volts and is rated at 7.5 watts, I should be able to get that to light using the secondary wires . I only need 62.5mA at 120 volts to get to 7.5 watts, so what makes this so hard to achieve? The battery certainly has that much amps ready for draw. I put a lithium in the holder today.

?? ?? ??

you do not have 62.5mA at the pickup coil(s).
i am assuming your mA values are taken from a resistance in series with the battery and are not values taken from the pickup coil.
a step up transformer rise the voltage but lower the amps.

@all
there are 2 ways to make coils cw and ccw.
but it all end up to how you are connecting them.

if you start (under/through the center), ccw, the coil will end (through the center/on top).
if you start (on top/through the center), cw, the coil will end (through the center/under).

if you make a ccw and wind from start going left, when finished, look at that coil's end carefully.
you just have made a cw coil...
if you make a cw and wind from start going left, when finished, look at that coil's end carefully.
you just have made a ccw coil...

anyone wondered why a jt that have less coil's turns on the base's coil, seem to get more voltage out at the pickup ? ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 16, 2009, 10:15:41 AM

Quote from: TheNOP on May 16, 2009, 10:07:41 AM

there are 2 ways to make coils cw and ccw.
but it all end up to how you are connecting them.

if you start (under/through the center), ccw, the coil will end (through the center/on top).
if you start (on top/through the center), cw, the coil will end (through the center/under).

if you make a ccw and wind from start going left, when finished, look at that coil's end carefully.
you just have made a cw coil...
if you make a cw and wind from start going left, when finished, look at that coil's end carefully.
you just have made a ccw coil...

anyone wondered why a jt that have less coil's turns on the base's coil, seem to get more voltage out at the pickup ? ;D

Sometimes but in my configuration above i am using a darlington and a cap to resonate this one and a 104 cap on the base makes this one go wild . with 2 50 turn primary jt and 108 secondary with a bit of Jims idea on the boost output
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on May 16, 2009, 11:03:12 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 16, 2009, 10:04:22 AM
ok here is the weird bifilar / secondary setup on a large black toroid with a know Value given to me by Greg for EB research . the number is visible . Its low perm high flux . I am getting over 1900 volts . this setup Takes the Tv out . Im on satellite and the tv is about 8 feet away .The Voltage is fluctuating as i get near the setup .I need to Box this one .. using tip121 50x2 primary CW 108 secondary (green) ccw . I tried this on two meters one ol'ed on the 750 volt scale . this one is set on the higest setting 300+ and the meter can measure 2000 volts before it Ol's

Gadget

Congrats!

Although, I would not trust the accuracy of any readings with a meter that was designed for a max of 300v. Could be off a little or alot.

Try using 2 resistors of same value in series on the output to create a voltage divider and you should get half of the 1902 volts or 951v. You could use the 750v DMM with 3 resistors in series and measure the first resistor to get 1/3 of the actual voltage which would be 634v, well within the range of the 750v meter.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 16, 2009, 11:09:09 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 16, 2009, 10:04:22 AM
ok here is the weird bifilar / secondary setup on a large black toroid with a know Value given to me by Greg for EB research . the number is visible . Its low perm high flux . I am getting over 1900 volts . this setup Takes the Tv out . Im on satellite and the tv is about 8 feet away .The Voltage is fluctuating as i get near the setup .I need to Box this one .. using tip121 50x2 primary CW 108 secondary (green) ccw . I tried this on two meters one ol'ed on the 750 volt scale . this one is set on the higest setting 300+ and the meter can measure 2000 volts before it Ol's

Gadget

Heres more pics of a different meter . the battery low just came on . I 'll chareg it up later . It very close to accurate still . It's ol'ing on the 1000 VDC scale ... this is what I am looking for . Now i'm going to Box it and make a small circuit board to hold everything tight and start on the tuning circuit . Its not Tuned on the input as low as i'd like . 65 ma at 1.2 volts right now and the output is fluctuating wildly as i get near it . . i'll get it and i have another of these toroid s . i believe i can go higher than this but i need an HV probe to measure it now . all my meters wont go any higher . this should light 1000 + leds i hope . I also got shocked and it felt more like a 110vac shock rater than an rf HV shock. it was buzzy and knocked me back ! ;D I will devise a separate tank for the input and hopefully stabilize it so it don't have all that radiation its putting out . Harmonics i am sure .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 16, 2009, 11:17:00 AM

Quote from: TheNOP on May 16, 2009, 10:07:41 AM
anyone wondered why a jt that have less coil's turns on the base's coil, seem to get more voltage out at the pickup ? ;D

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 16, 2009, 10:15:41 AM
Sometimes but in my configuration above i am using a darlington and a cap to resonate this one and a 104 cap on the base makes this one go wild . with 2 50 turn primary jt and 108 secondary with a bit of Jims idea on the boost output
Gadget

i know what you mean by "sometimes".
those "sometimes" are because of the way jts are made.

once you understand how and why the transistor base is affected, you won't have those "sometimes" anymore.
well..., you will know how to fix it.
there are multiple ways to fix it, a cap is only one way.

my above question is not really a question as you might have guessed.
it is a fact that will always be true.

a current induced in a wire, by a mag field, will always go in the opposite direction to the current creating the mag field.
how is the base's coil winded compaire to the collector coil...

unless your jt coils are done i a way to minimise the "bad" effects on the transistor's base signal,
a diode at the output is not something optionnal.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 16, 2009, 11:27:48 AM

Quote from: TheNOP on May 16, 2009, 11:17:00 AM
i know what you mean by "sometimes".
those "sometimes" are because of the way jts are made.

once you understand how and why the transistor base is affected, you won't have those "sometimes" anymore.
well..., you will know how to fix it.
there are multiple ways to fix it, a cap is only one way.

my above question is not really a question as you might have guessed.
it is a fact that will always be true.

a current induced in a wire, by a mag field, will always go in the opposite direction to the current creating the mag field.
how is the base's coil winded compaire to the collector coil...

unless your jt coils are done i a way to minimise the "bad" effects on the transistor's base signal,
a diode at the output is not something optional.

Ok . Well mine should be close to 1 to 1 as i have 100 turns primary and 108 turns secondary .. Its a Mystery why i get Extremely high voltages from this configuration . thanks for the input nop I am not questioning your statement on jt transformer theory . . I wish i had a scope . this thing is disrupting Televisions throughout My house and the volts/current are radiating from the torroid . i could guess the frequency might be very high but i don't know for sure .more test on this toroid . .
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 16, 2009, 11:52:50 AM

@ gadgetmall

Will your 1000 volt output light a fluorescent tube? If so, what battery drain is required?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 16, 2009, 11:57:45 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 16, 2009, 11:27:48 AM
Ok . Well mine should be close to 1 to 1 as i have 100 turns primary and 108 turns secondary .. Its a Mystery why i get Extremely high voltages from this configuration .

don't forget the inrush current and/or backemf nature of the voltage being induce in the pickup.

edit:
the ratio is not ~1:1, the coil are 50 turns each from what you have said, not 100 each.
remember the primaries are cw vs ccw.
one of the coils will induce current in the pickup without the transistor's base signal being affected.
the other coil will affect the transistor's base signal.

all depend in what direction you allow the current to flow in the pickup coil.

if you use the mk series ways to make your jt, both coils are affecting the pickup while minimising a "bad" sides effect on the transistor's base signal.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 16, 2009, 11:58:03 AM

Quote from: xee2 on May 16, 2009, 11:52:50 AM
@ gadgetmall

Will your 1000 volt output light a fluorescent tube?

yep and with one wire . I'll picture it in a bit after lunch .!! I bet it will light several in series . Edit . Still eating and playin . Here is a picture of the only two big cfls i have the ring is lit with one terminal . Its kind of hard to see because of the brightness of the spiral . also there is a neon lit too .
gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 16, 2009, 12:43:37 PM

@ gadgetmall

Thanks for the pictures. Can you give some battery drain readings? You seem to be doing this at very low current.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 16, 2009, 12:47:02 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 16, 2009, 12:43:37 PM
@ gadgetmall

Thanks for the pictures. Can you give some battery drain readings? You seem to be doing this at very low current.

Thanks . Its high still in my opinion but its a darlington transistor and not tuned with a tank . close . 69 ma @ 1.2 volts using 1.5 k on the base with a 104 cap across . i'm shooting for the current draw of a normal jt of 14ma or thereabouts with the HV output . I am pretty sure i can do this but this thing needs to be in a cage ;)
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 16, 2009, 01:12:26 PM

@ gadgetmall

Wow! That's great. It is amazing that you are able to light the fluorescents that bright with only 69 mA. Good work. I am looking forward to your future posts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 16, 2009, 03:26:36 PM

I increased turns on collector coil and was able to light fluorescent tube with only 50 mA but it is not anywhere near as bright as gadgetmall was able to do.

EDIT: added alternate circuit

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 16, 2009, 04:49:13 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on May 16, 2009, 10:07:41 AM
you do not have 62.5mA at the pickup coil(s).
i am assuming your mA values are taken from a resistance in series with the battery and are not values taken from the pickup coil.
a step up transformer rise the voltage but lower the amps.

@NOP,

You are right. I forgot. I don't have a light so I think it is going through the circuit.
It is ma wasted by the transistor but not being used in the circuit.

@xee,
Thanks for reposting this ckt.
I don't have room for 10 but it would be easy to modify the 3T,4T,92T to be closer than it is to 2T.10T. I will double-check to see if I NEED the 3 and 4 to start up the oscillations in the toroid, or if 2 and 10 or 6 can do it I have all the parts you describe.
My toroid is smaller in diameter, though. I actually think this is a problem.
It is less than 1 inch.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 16, 2009, 05:07:22 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on May 16, 2009, 04:49:13 PM
My toroid is smaller in diameter, though. I actually think this is a problem.
It is less than 1 inch.

Size of toroid should not matter. It is the proportions of toroid that effect performance. If one toroid has all dimensions shrunk be the same percentage then performance will be the same except for saturation. I use big toroids because they are easier to wind.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 16, 2009, 05:34:34 PM

@ALL . And now Made it a bit better and call it the HVJTGADGET . and TV DISRUPTOR :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 16, 2009, 05:37:30 PM

Thanks xee.
That is interesting.

I have been searching U value for flux and I cannot find much by googling. Is the U value high in hi flux or low?
I ask because the high flux ferrites at the online source somewhere has U values of 60 and 120. The one Gadgetmall just showed has a much higher number. I am wondering which to buy.

@All,
I just found a limit of sorts.

I am setting up the enormo toroid for winding, and I found that with 2 turns as the base coil, I must have a HIGH value resistor or cap at the base in order for the light to go on. (I found a flicker then out spot too.)

However, with just one more base coil turn, a low value resistor lights the light just fine.
This was 2T, 9T but 3T,9T is great. I think I will play with this a bit more. This may be valuable and might add to our understanding of what is happening here at the base coil or perhaps the base to collector relationship. I will have a little look..

@Gadget,
What is that straight ferrite with the turns doing in your circuit?

I had a dream this morning and I was being taught to use a thing like that. My teacher said I could buy them, but I would learn more if I made them myself and experimented. (good teacher!)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 16, 2009, 06:00:09 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 16, 2009, 05:37:30 PM
Thanks xee.
That is interesting.

I have been searching U value for flux and I cannot find much by googling. Is the U value high in hi flux or low?
I ask because the high flux ferrites at the online source somewhere has U values of 60 and 120. The one Gadgetmall just showed has a much higher number. I am wondering which to buy.

@All,
I just found a limit of sorts.

I am setting up the enormo toroid for winding, and I found that with 2 turns as the base coil, I must have a HIGH value resistor or cap at the base in order for the light to go on. (I found a flicker then out spot too.)

However, with just one more base coil turn, a low value resistor lights the light just fine.
This was 2T, 9T but 3T,9T is great. I think I will play with this a bit more. This may be valuable and might add to our understanding of what is happening here at the base coil or perhaps the base to collector relationship. I will have a little look..

@Gadget,
What is that straight ferrite with the turns doing in your circuit?

I had a dream this morning and I was being taught to use a thing like that. My teacher said I could buy them, but I would learn more if I made them myself and experimented. (good teacher!)

jeanna

Its a ferrite tuning coil and part of the tank circuit Uh unknown but is providing a capacitive reaction between the ring , 5 k VR and 104 cap . That little coil boosted the volts up and its intention was to narrow the harmonics but it juts amplified them in resonance and really fuzzes out a tv . I had a bag of different ones and just picked this one cause it fits. . accidents happen and this was a good one . I have one more core and i want to double up on the secondary this time may be several Outs ...

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 16, 2009, 08:01:30 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 16, 2009, 06:00:09 PM
Its a ferrite tuning coil and part of the tank circuit Uh unknown but is providing a capacitive reaction between the ring , 5 k VR and 104 cap . That little coil boosted the volts up and its intention was to narrow the harmonics but it juts amplified them in resonance ...

====
Thanks . Its high still in my opinion but its a darlington transistor and not tuned with a tank . close . 69 ma @ 1.2 volts using 1.5 k on the base with a 104 cap across . i'm shooting for the current draw of a normal jt of 14ma or thereabouts with the HV output . I am pretty sure i can do this but this thing needs to be in a cage ;)
Gadget

So, Gadget, how is it connected and to which of these parts? I mean is it parallel to the pot and cap?... in series with them

Also in the bottom right hand corner of the close-up where this is prominent, there is something else I do not recognize. Maybe I should and it is at a funny angle. Please tell me what it is?

I like altoids boxes. curiously strong circuits, deserve to be in the right container you know. ;)

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 16, 2009, 08:45:49 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 16, 2009, 08:01:30 PM
So, Gadget, how is it connected and to which of these parts? I mean is it parallel to the pot and cap?... in series with them

Also in the bottom right hand corner of the close-up where this is prominent, there is something else I do not recognize. Maybe I should and it is at a funny angle. Please tell me what it is?

I like altoids boxes. curiously strong circuits, deserve to be in the right container you know. ;)

thank you,

jeanna

YES VERY STRONG . I don't know which parts there a cap a Vr and a tuning coil ?? maybe the wire is what you see . I smushed it and did not cut it . Did anyone say More Please . Ok here ya go ! And a Fresh Battery for the meter ! heres a close up and a schematic i think ::)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 16, 2009, 09:32:21 PM

Al:

Nice job man, that is fantastic output! If I can ever figure out how to build this, there is no telling how many leds I can light from the old EB. That is like running 3 Fuji's and then some. Great job. I believe the bar has been raised.

BTW I was looking on your site for the 650f supercaps and did not see them, can you point me in the right direction? Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 16, 2009, 10:43:45 PM

thanks Gadget,

My next questions are what could you do with it if you did not rectify it, and how much is there if it is not rectified.

I am very curious about this aspect.

You and Bill are capturing the ac which is in the ground and augmenting it into useful ac electricity, through the fuji ckt or through this new toroid.

This 1300 volts on your meter is such an awesome amount and although I suppose it would only count as half (maybe, I am not sure if it would be half) if you could keep it as an ac you should be able to transform it up and down and put things in a parallel way like our house currents, and then what could you do?

I am very excited to see this and I personally want to see what the ac possibilities are. (maybe, its a girl thing.)

thank you so much,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 16, 2009, 11:29:28 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 16, 2009, 10:43:45 PM
thanks Gadget,

My next questions are what could you do with it if you did not rectify it, and how much is there if it is not rectified.

I am very curious about this aspect.

You and Bill are capturing the ac which is in the ground and augmenting it into useful ac electricity, through the fuji ckt or through this new toroid.

This 1300 volts on your meter is such an awesome amount and although I suppose it would only count as half (maybe, I am not sure if it would be half) if you could keep it as an ac you should be able to transform it up and down and put things in a parallel way like our house currents, and then what could you do?

I am very excited to see this and I personally want to see what the ac possibilities are. (maybe, its a girl thing.)

thank you so much,

jeanna

Its pulsed Dc because i am not rectifying fullwave bridge . Its a little different than what electricme described in the output stage . On the Ac scale it sholde be about 2600 volts ? . I spose i could light up a bunch of Christmas treelights in the house and out in the yard ? Mainily i wanted enuff to light CFLS but i believe more light from leds . I just got 100 200000 5mm 20ma white leds and they are brighest i have ever seen . one will light up a room if delineated with some translucent plastic . so 1000 to 3000 should light the whole house on one of these babys . I am using a cell i tor out of an oldder laptop battery and they charge up to 1.4 volts and 4500mah . the one im using now i havent charged in 2 days and its been testing around the clock . I got an old altoids light wanna see it runs 24 hours a day 7 days a week and hurts your eyes . the led is a 1 watt luxeon i ripped out of a light . I put it either on top of an overhead CFL and when i shut the cfl off i still have light. If its bright outside i set in on the window sill . runs for 50 hours on a 5 hour light charge .
and here is another old bedini using lagr speaker and nedium magnet flywheel with a small coil charging a jt battery and lighting up twin eye balls. the bright shot is all jt light no flash . Of course this thing is spinning at 3000 +rpm and charging up 10 other batterys also .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 16, 2009, 11:33:30 PM

Since the sun is about to set on the pacific ocean, and I awoke today with a dream about studying inductors, I figured it was time to start. :D

I did look up inductors and found all the same stuff I have read many times before. I had a familiarity and better understanding than ever before, but nothing too new hit me, so watch out...

I wrapped a ball point pen with 12 turns of 26awg mag wire and stuck it in parallel with the base resistor of my current MK1 which is the 3T,4T,92T I used to make all those tables. There probably should be a cap also, but there is not.

The lithium battery starts too high 1.65v. so, I changed back to a NiMH at 1.35v for this. Also, the light got a bit brighter with the added inductor.

Sizzle... steam starts to pour from the top of the transistor.
Oh! did it get hot. I may have saved it, because nothing stopped working.

So, using a 540ohm base resistor which yesterday gave me
154volts at
20Khz, I looked into this.

first, today this was reading not the above amounts (maybe from input difference) but I got a lot less,

64.5Volts and
64.5KHz (same number!)

After I put the ball point inductor into the board with the legs parallel with the base resistor, the numbers changed to
83-89 volts
18.5 KHz.

And it was hot again.

Jadaro, do I remember that you had a heating priblem with your helmholz inductors?

I don't really know what to do with this but it did really raise the volts. I may look into this, but the heat is a problem. I think the next thing to try is in series with this resistor, yes? yes.

and a cap.

ok 4 now, the sun has set.

jeanna

EDIT simultaneous post
@gadget,
VERY very nice altoids box. very nice.
I didn't realize that dc converted the way you said-- doubled instead of halved. It is even better. I am glad you say you didn't full bridge it. I still need to work to understand this better.
very nice

btw, since I have a scope and I can see this.
MOST of the time at least with all my MK1's, the waves are almost equal both above and below the center x axis. It is the reason I keep calling it ac.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Thaelin on May 16, 2009, 11:58:40 PM

Actually, the way Gadget has the output caps and diodes is a voltage doubler circuit. They are used where you want high voltage at the cost of the amps output. Each stage will drop the amps out more. Simple but works well.

thay

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 17, 2009, 12:23:36 AM

Quote from: jeanna on May 16, 2009, 11:33:30 PM
Since the sun is about to set on the pacific ocean, and I awoke today with a dream about studying inductors, I figured it was time to start. :D

I did look up inductors and found all the same stuff I have read many times before. I had a familiarity and better understanding than ever before, but nothing too new hit me, so watch out...

I wrapped a ball point pen with 12 turns of 26awg mag wire and stuck it in parallel with the base resistor of my current MK1 which is the 3T,4T,92T I used to make all those tables. There probably should be a cap also, but there is not.

And it was hot again.

I don't really know what to do with this but it did really raise the volts. I may look into this, but the heat is a problem. I think the next thing to try is in series with this resistor, yes? yes.

and a cap.

ok 4 now, the sun has set.

jeanna

EDIT simultaneous post
@gadget,
VERY very nice altoids box. very nice.
I didn't realize that dc converted the way you said-- doubled instead of halved. It is even better. I am glad you say you didn't full bridge it. I still need to work to understand this better.
very nice

Yes in series with the base before the resistor cap will stop the overheating .

Nite nite . I have been at this for over 24 hours this weekend and i am shot .. you all take care and Dream About our future Energy Solutions we all are comming up with .. Sweet electric dreams

ALBERT
AKA the Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 17, 2009, 01:04:41 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 17, 2009, 12:23:36 AM
Yes in series with the base before the resistor cap will stop the overheating .

Nite nite . ..
...and Dream About our future Energy Solutions we all are coming up with .. Sweet electric dreams

Gadget

yup, well, maybe dream on. I tried it and nada. no heat, but no effect either. The circuit didn't even notice it.

I might give it a try with a cap also in the parallel etc.

more to try tomorrow.

dream on ... ;)

Hey, thanks for sharing so much today, gadget. It was great to have you around again. You are an inspiration.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on May 17, 2009, 03:59:30 AM

I woke up from my own dream and could not go back to sleep.. It's 3:00 am here in Iowa. My dream directed me to take my smallest toroid, a 1/4 inch that I took out of a 13 watt CFL and wind a classic JT and it would light the world :)

So I quickly put a 14t-14t bifillar on it and hooked it up using a 1k ohm and a 2n2222. Man that thing is tiny! Barely bigger than a single 5mm LED! I fired it up with a nearly dead AA and the pictures say it all 8)

I have 64 LEDs in parallel on a board for testing high output JT circuits. WOW!!! These are 64 of those 100 x 5mm 20,000mcd LEDs I got from Ebay and they are bright 8)

This has got to be a record for the smallest, simplist, highest output classic JT. It looks like it could light way more than the 64 that I have hooked up too ;D

I'm getting tired again. I'll take measurements in the morning and some more detailed pics.

Pictures were taken in pitch dark with the flash off.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 17, 2009, 07:54:41 AM

Quote from: Thaelin on May 15, 2009, 11:57:18 PM
Just curious, but has anyone tried to wind the first layer of the pickup coil and then just jump over the two small coils and wind the second layer? This would approximate what tesla did with his pancake which made it perform better. I am still in my work week so have no time to play.
On winding torrids, I have found that I have to be very careful when looping the wire through the hole not to scrape it on the edges as they are usually sharp. Have scared a lot of wire and had to throw it out. This is especially true of the choke torrids out of old PC power supplies. Most of mine have been encased in a plastic cover which I remove to get the wire right on the surface of the torrid.
And last but not least, I did notice on another board where the person had a conductor running the length of the tube to help light the gas. This on a 48" tube. May be an easy way to get more light for the input.

thaelin

WOW I was having a dream about this exact set-up this morning. I ended up waking up way to early for a Sunday. I think crossing over the 2 smaller windings will fit easier and may increase performance. I guess one of us will have to try it ;D

Oopps you're way ahead of me I'm still catching up on pages from a few days ago!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 17, 2009, 08:02:44 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 16, 2009, 10:04:22 AM
ok here is the weird bifilar / secondary setup on a large black toroid with a know Value given to me by Greg for EB research . the number is visible . Its low perm high flux . I am getting over 1900 volts . this setup Takes the Tv out . Im on satellite and the tv is about 8 feet away .The Voltage is fluctuating as i get near the setup .I need to Box this one .. using tip121 50x2 primary CW 108 secondary (green) ccw . I tried this on two meters one ol'ed on the 750 volt scale . this one is set on the higest setting 300+ and the meter can measure 2000 volts before it Ol's

Gadget

Incredible Gadget, is there a site we can get these toroid's from?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 17, 2009, 08:04:41 AM

@xee2
I apologise for missing your post to me.

Quote from: xee2 on May 14, 2009, 08:20:16 AM
@ electricme

To get more vots out just add more turns to the pickup coil and/or reduce base resistor value. However, there is a lower limit to base resistor value after which the voltage starts to decrease.

I agree with you xee, but depending on your particular coil, will depend on the results you get with it.
I have found every coil I have made is hobsons choice. :D

I miss 1 day and there is heeps to catch up on, phew.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 17, 2009, 08:11:57 AM

@Mk1
Diode limitations

Quote from: Mk1 on May 15, 2009, 01:21:48 AM
@electricme

Don't forget to test other diodes ! those are 400 volt you may have more then that !

Mark

Thanks Mark, I have been on the net looking for a number of diodes with higher ratings, the 1n4004 is at 400volts, so next thing is to make a bridge diode from 1N4007's and see how that goes.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 17, 2009, 08:26:37 AM

@ Gadget
@Jeanna
I think I may have stumbled on why both of you have not been getting results with Hazens1 HV toroid

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 15, 2009, 11:34:56 AM
Bill Great Going . I figured a super cap would run all that stuff . Now i guess i need to make us a Flip Flopper to file from the dead cap to a Charged one . This only applies to the little suoer caps . the ULTRA cap will run them for days on end . I now have several Monster 650 farad caps that run jts for 4 days . I have also built a regulator to carry the 2.7 volts down to 1.6 to run fugi stuff. I am a little disapointed at my hazens replication because this would have been refined by me to the least amount of input but that ain't the problem . it just dont work with the amount of turns on the primary Jt . Now the LPJT has 100 turns primary center tapped and works on a lot of different toroids . I might hook this one up backwards and see what it does :)

@electricme . I love Australia !! your too cool man .
@ mark . Less? ok ill go 3 x3 and see !!

Gadget

I took my Hazens1 into Dalby, and accidently left my good Red $80 DMM back at my place, but I had a run of the mill el-cheepo $15 DMM with me.
I connected up the battery and the DMM and it read very low low voltage, then I thought about the trouble you both had trying to see any voltage on your own DMMs.

Is there any chance that some DMMs just carn't read certain JT configurations, even if they are working?
When I return home tomorrow, Im going to test this quick smart and report what I find.

jim

@Gadget,
Is there any chance you will return to Ausie? even if for a holiday?
Everybody is welcome to come to the Land Down Under, we all upside down anyway he he.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 17, 2009, 08:28:06 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 16, 2009, 11:29:28 PM
Its pulsed Dc because i am not rectifying fullwave bridge . Its a little different than what electricme described in the output stage . On the Ac scale it sholde be about 2600 volts ? . I spose i could light up a bunch of Christmas treelights in the house and out in the yard ? Mainily i wanted enuff to light CFLS but i believe more light from leds . I just got 100 200000 5mm 20ma white leds and they are brighest i have ever seen . one will light up a room if delineated with some translucent plastic . so 1000 to 3000 should light the whole house on one of these babys . I am using a cell i tor out of an oldder laptop battery and they charge up to 1.4 volts and 4500mah . the one im using now i havent charged in 2 days and its been testing around the clock . I got an old altoids light wanna see it runs 24 hours a day 7 days a week and hurts your eyes . the led is a 1 watt luxeon i ripped out of a light . I put it either on top of an overhead CFL and when i shut the cfl off i still have light. If its bright outside i set in on the window sill . runs for 50 hours on a 5 hour light charge .
and here is another old bedini using lagr speaker and nedium magnet flywheel with a small coil charging a jt battery and lighting up twin eye balls. the bright shot is all jt light no flash . Of course this thing is spinning at 3000 +rpm and charging up 10 other batterys also .

200,000mcd is very bright but the brightest I have seen are from goldmine 265,000mcd 10mm but they are 3.25 per led :o

That could get expensive quick!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 17, 2009, 09:00:48 AM

@gadget,

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 16, 2009, 10:04:22 AM
ok here is the weird bifilar / secondary setup on a large black toroid with a know Value given to me by Greg for EB research . the number is visible . Its low perm high flux . I am getting over 1900 volts . this setup Takes the Tv out . Im on satellite and the tv is about 8 feet away .The Voltage is fluctuating as i get near the setup .I need to Box this one .. using tip121 50x2 primary CW 108 secondary (green) ccw . I tried this on two meters one ol'ed on the 750 volt scale . this one is set on the higest setting 300+ and the meter can measure 2000 volts before it Ol's

Gadget

Phew, do I see 1900 odd volts on your setup?

I can see I'mm going to have to take a serious look at getting a High Voltage meter from somewhere soon.

Try putting a few PC power supply capacitors in series and see what sort of energy they put out when you short them, (seriously, wear ear muffs if you try this and rubber gloves).

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on May 17, 2009, 09:27:18 AM

Update:

I'm drawing 25ma at 1.25v input to light 64 super brights using this tiny 1/4 inch toroid in classic JT configuration.

I put a diode and a cap to measure output voltage. I measured 87.3 volts in a 104k-100v Green 100nf capacitor from Radio Shack.

The last 2 pics, I took the whole thing and moved it to the 64 LED test board and it's now running off a tiny 1.5v button cell that has 1.13v left in it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Paul-R on May 17, 2009, 09:37:30 AM

I am pretty bambouzled by the exotic thinking in this thread, and hope
that this enquiry is not too facile.

I notice from the xee2 post, #5903, that he appears to be supplying 50mA
at 1.5v, and driving a flourescent tube marked 5 watt.

Is this load actually 5 watt? If so, your overunity counter should be off the
scale.

Paul.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 17, 2009, 09:51:12 AM

@Hazens1
Good ideas come from dreamin, good work.

Quote from: hazens1 on May 17, 2009, 03:59:30 AM
I woke up from my own dream and could not go back to sleep.. It's 3:00 am here in Iowa. My dream directed me to take my smallest toroid, a 1/4 inch that I took out of a 13 watt CFL and wind a classic JT and it would light the world :)

So I quickly put a 14t-14t bifillar on it and hooked it up using a 1k ohm and a 2n2222. Man that thing is tiny! Barely bigger than a single 5mm LED! I fired it up with a nearly dead AA and the pictures say it all 8)

I have 64 LEDs in parallel on a board for testing high output JT circuits. WOW!!! These are 64 of those 100 x 5mm 20,000mcd LEDs I got from Ebay and they are bright 8)

This has got to be a record for the smallest, simplist, highest output classic JT. It looks like it could light way more than the 64 that I have hooked up too ;D

I'm getting tired again. I'll take measurements in the morning and some more detailed pics.

Pictures were taken in pitch dark with the flash off.

I don't know why but I am really amased at the scope of the work we have all been doing here on Bills thread, this is really excellent work.

OK now to offer another suggestion to all those who have bright LEDs and tubes.

Now it's time to put the JT illuminators hanging from the roof/ceilings, then see how much light is produced.
Try and "project" the light using a concave mirror, on of the camping magnifying ones.

To find the focal point, direct sunlight off it onto a wall, when the light is a tiny pin prick, measure the distance from the wall to the mirror, divide the mirror diameter into the length away from the wall. = FP
Mirrer dia = m
Mir2wall n inches = L
Divide m into L = F P

Now you can project the light of a JT where ever you want it to go.
Turn a 3W LED into a search light.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 17, 2009, 10:02:02 AM

Quote from: Paul-R on May 17, 2009, 09:37:30 AM
I am pretty bambouzled by the exotic thinking in this thread, and hope
that this enquiry is not too facile.

I notice from the xee2 post, #5903, that he appears to be supplying 50mA
at 1.5v, and driving a flourescent tube marked 5 watt.

Is this load actually 5 watt? If so, your overunity counter should be off the
scale.

Paul.

We haven't created any overunity here just an extremely efficient way to make things light up (leds/CLF) Between the voltage and the frequencies we create efficiencies. There is a lot more to it then that and there are a lot more qualified people here to ansewer your question in much greater depth but that's the gist of it!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 17, 2009, 10:02:47 AM

@Thaelin,
Exactly, you are right on sport, now will gadget try a voltage trippler diode arrangement?

Quote from: Thaelin on May 16, 2009, 11:58:40 PM
Actually, the way Gadget has the output caps and diodes is a voltage doubler circuit. They are used where you want high voltage at the cost of the amps output. Each stage will drop the amps out more. Simple but works well.

thay

I have another thought, could this HV circuit drive two or three identical Doublers in parallel?
Then recombine both outputs via a multi tap transformer to get a different output?

Just an idea, may or not work.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 17, 2009, 10:21:34 AM

@Paul-r,
Welcome to the Joule Thread, where the unknown is done by the unknown, ha ha.

I knew nothing about this stuff and I still know nothin, but if I suggest somethin and somethin comes of it, then thats good, and I happy at that.

You are welcome to throw your hat into the ring and join the merry parti, welcome aboard.

I' tired, its midnight, somehow I need a snooze.

hooroo all
C yah 2 morra

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 17, 2009, 10:49:12 AM

The Schematic OF HVJT two pages back is wrong (as usually) After studying this thing i correct it . The past wouldn't led me edit today do here is the right one .
@Pirate feel free to move this picture over the Plans one two pages back .

@Hazens Nice . I noticed those little beads are even stronger ! I use 11 turns x2 number 36 wire on them for my Eternity lights and several other multi led projects here .
@ Jim Good Morning . Or night :) Thanks for the Ideas !!and the r wheel!

@all
More toys and Mr fatty is done . What will it do ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Thaelin on May 17, 2009, 10:57:13 AM

Hi Electricme:
The problem with them is they have some losses. The more you stack, the more you lose in the chain. I have had a ten set to up the voltage a lot but lost all the amps at the end. Was so high volts it would arc if I didn't watch it. The diodes had to be from old MO's so they wouldn't burn up. Caps were rated at 3kv.
As for chaining these, I think you will defeat your purpose there. But then I have never done it and this thread is about venturing into uncharted lands/space. I just wished I had something useful to add to give back that has been given me here. My next electric bill should be near the monthly minimum or so as I am converting over to all LED lighting using info from here. In the near future I want to go FL's as I get burnt ones for free all the time. I have a collection of them now. All are full spectrum type and should be great for use.
As said, if you start stacking these doublers, dont touch the wrong place. Remember the voltage tripler in TV's nowdays puts out 35k and its a killer.

thaelin

Quote from: electricme on May 17, 2009, 10:02:47 AM
@Thaelin,
Exactly, you are right on sport, now will gadget try a voltage trippler diode arrangement?

I have another thought, could this HV circuit drive two or three identical Doublers in parallel?
Then recombine both outputs via a multi tap transformer to get a different output?

Just an idea, may or not work.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 17, 2009, 11:10:33 AM

I HAD a big multiplier x 8 i think , i made . I have to dig it out . It was builtto fire a carbon dioxide laser i played with years ago . Blew holes in Sheets of Stainless ... the tip end glows blue and is fun to play with (if you know what your getting in to) .. I'll hook it up and the only way its going to be measured is by the length of the spark gap . I aint putin my meters on it ! ;D. Well i can't Find . It . I misplaced it in My Shop full of years of gadgets / I'm Not strong enuff this morning to move crates of parts and whatnots . so i guess i'll build another one later on . I did find several old Hv power surplus that had an X2 multiplyer . I might take the parts off and used them to make a few more stages . Even though the Current is low on Very High Voltage you can light up More with them . And at a Distance without wires.
Gadgetmall

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 17, 2009, 11:12:59 AM

Quote from: Paul-R on May 17, 2009, 09:37:30 AM
I notice from the xee2 post, #5903, that he appears to be supplying 50mA
at 1.5v, and driving a flourescent tube marked 5 watt.

Is this load actually 5 watt? If so, your overunity counter should be off the
scale.

Paul.

you can't simply assume the output of his jt is 5 watts just because the tube is rated for 5 watts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 17, 2009, 11:37:28 AM

@ Paul-R

Quote from: Paul-R on May 17, 2009, 09:37:30 AM
Is this load actually 5 watt?

No. The power delivered to tube is less than power used from battery.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 17, 2009, 11:54:14 AM

@All
For those of you interested in Earth Battery Jt stuff here is a little simple circuit that takes the EB and charges up an ultracap and uses a small solar panel to detect night and turn on your Jt . the advantage it the solar panel not only is the light detection but also helps charge if there is sun as an advantage . this Works very well !!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 17, 2009, 12:04:21 PM

@ gadgetmall

It looks like the 69 mA is with no load. I think that battery drain will increase when fluorescent tubes are put on output. Can you check to see what battery drain is when your circuit is lighting a fluorescent tube?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 17, 2009, 12:46:40 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 17, 2009, 12:04:21 PM
@ gadgetmall

It looks like the 69 mA is with no load. I think that battery drain will increase when fluorescent tubes are put on output. Can you check to see what battery drain is when your circuit is lighting a fluorescent tube?

from my experience, it will more probably drain less with a load.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 17, 2009, 12:52:22 PM

@NOP and xee,

So, what is the 5 watt tube using if you

1-

Quoteyou can't simply assume the output of his jt is 5 watts just because the tube is rated for 5 watts.

and
2-

QuoteThe power delivered to tube is less than power used from battery.

Is this for real?
What on earth CAN you assume?

We seem to be going around in circles.
On the one hand the laws of physics are used recursively to keep all assumptions inside the "Known" box,

(this is reasonable enough for trained people,)

and on the other we cannot assume that when we turn on a 5 watt light that we are giving it what it needs , which in this case would be 5 watts?

thank you for any thoughtful answers,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 17, 2009, 01:03:37 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 17, 2009, 12:52:22 PM
@NOP and xee,

So, what is the 5 watt tube using if you

1-and
2-
Is this for real?
What on earth CAN you assume?

We seem to be going around in circles.
On the one hand the laws of physics are used recursively to keep all assumptions inside the "Known" box,

(this is reasonable enough for trained people,)

and on the other we cannot assume that when we turn on a 5 watt light that we are giving it what it needs , which in this case would be 5 watts?

thank you for any thoughtful answers,

jeanna

you can assume that you don't need the energy level to its rated level to make something work.

the cfl does not need 5 watts to light up.
note that this 5 watts rating is to get the "full" britness at 60 Hz.

a one HP motor does not need 746 watts to be able to rotate its rotor.
you do need 746 watts to get one HP of torque tho.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 17, 2009, 01:24:22 PM

Quote from: stprue on May 17, 2009, 10:02:02 AM
We haven't created any overunity here just an extremely efficient way to make things light up (leds/CLF) Between the voltage and the frequencies we create efficiencies. There is a lot more to it then that and there are a lot more qualified people here to ansewer your question in much greater depth but that's the gist of it!

I respectfully disagree. Input power to my earth battery-joule thief-supercaps circuit=0 Output from circuit=1.95 volts, about 12mA's....enough to light the 48" tube, and soon (hopefully) much more.
But, you are correct in that it is the EB doing this and not the JT. I am just using the JT as a tool which, by itself, is not OU.

Also, Goldmine now has 285,000 MCD leds (about the same price ea. as you mentioned) and these are the brightest I know about. I bought a handful of the 265,000's but just received a circular from them listing the 285,000 leds. my guess is that we probably could not even notice the brightness difference between the two visually.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 17, 2009, 01:26:50 PM

@ All

I wish more of you had success with the Hazens1 design. I have thrown together a very clumsy version following his directions to a tea. The voltage is far from 404 but like I said this is an unrefined and clumsy version. It is using 24gauge mag wire maybe 51 up 40 something down/tip31/500ohm pot set on lowest/and a 800volt bridge.

I think people are have success because they are scraping the enamel off the wire and they are not winding properly. With this particular coil you need to take your time. We all know Hazens1 has Patience and always carefully constructs his coils. Any way here are some pics!

@Hazen1 maybe to help some people you should re-post some of your original pics, the one that shows winding direction and how to hook up!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 17, 2009, 01:29:39 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 17, 2009, 01:24:22 PM
I respectfully disagree. Input power to my earth battery-joule thief-supercaps circuit=0 Output from circuit=1.95 volts, about 12mA's....enough to light the 48" tube, and soon (hopefully) much more.
But, you are correct in that it is the EB doing this and not the JT. I am just using the JT as a tool which, by itself, is not OU.

Also, Goldmine now has 285,000 MCD leds (about the same price ea. as you mentioned) and these are the brightest I know about. I bought a handful of the 265,000's but just received a circular from them listing the 285,000 leds. my guess is that we probably could not even notice the brightness difference between the two visually.

Bill

I did not know that 285000 I wish I saw those I just ordered the 265. As for your EB it is overunity to me too ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 17, 2009, 01:31:11 PM

This one didn't post for some reason. ???

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 17, 2009, 01:39:13 PM

@ jeanna

First it is a 4 watt tube. That means it uses 4 watts when plugged into 120 volt AC supply.

I am surprised you asked about this. If you replace your 10 ohm resistor that you connect in series with the 1.5 volt battery to measure current with a 100 watt 10 ohm resistor do you really think that the battery is going to deliver 100 watts into it just because it is labled 100 watts? The 100 watts is the maximum power that can be put into the resistor without damaging it. Consider it a game. When you see something that says "100 watts" you need to play the game of "what in the world do they mean by that?".

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 17, 2009, 01:46:11 PM

@ Pirate88179

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 17, 2009, 01:24:22 PM
I respectfully disagree. Input power to my earth battery-joule thief-supercaps circuit=0 Output from circuit=1.95 volts, about 12mA's....enough to light the 48" tube, and soon (hopefully) much more.

Your EB is just like any other battery except you made it yourself. It gets its energy from the electrodes which are used up in the process of generating voltage.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 17, 2009, 02:00:09 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 17, 2009, 01:39:13 PM
First it is a 4 watt tube. That means it uses 4 watts when plugged into 120 volt AC supply.

I am surprised you asked about this. If you replace your 10 ohm resistor that you connect in series with the 1.5 volt battery to measure current with a 100 watt 10 ohm resistor do you really think that the battery is going to deliver 100 watts into it just because it is labled 100 watts? The 100 watts is the maximum power that can be put into the resistor without damaging it. Consider it a game. When you see something that says "100 watts" you need to play the game of "what in the world do they mean by that?".

your resistor example is truly what to expect from the watts rating of any electric componants and/or appliances.

but, to me, your first statement is somewhat contradicting your resistor example.
i would say : it can support up to ~4 watts without degrading too fast or blow up.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 17, 2009, 02:08:36 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 17, 2009, 01:24:22 PM
I respectfully disagree. Input power to my earth battery-joule thief-supercaps circuit=0 Output from circuit=1.95 volts, about 12mA's....enough to light the 48" tube, and soon (hopefully) much more.
But, you are correct in that it is the EB doing this and not the JT. I am just using the JT as a tool which, by itself, is not OU.

it can't be called OU.
if you could, any alkaline batteries would be OU devices.

it is a free source of energy, yes, just like wind and solar.
but like everything else, tapping it technicaly cost something.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 17, 2009, 02:09:13 PM

@ TheNOP

Quote from: TheNOP on May 17, 2009, 02:00:09 PM
but, to me, your first statement is somewhat contradicting your resistor example.
i would say : it can support up to ~4 watts without degrading too fast or blow up.

That is why I said you need to play the game of "what in the world do they mean by that" because it can mean different things.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 17, 2009, 02:26:30 PM

I think this is correct.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 17, 2009, 02:30:01 PM

@xee,
As I understand this to call a lightbulb 4 watts means that at 120 volts it draws 33.4mA and so V x A= W therefore 4 watts.

With leds it is different.
Some of them are rated for turn on and some are rated for best brightness I don't think any are rated for burn out, but maybe some are.
That is the reason it is so hard to compare led turn ons.

But standard 120 volt 60Hz bulbs?

It may answer the question I have about why some can get a light to turn on and others cannot. My 7 watt fluorotube was harder for the fuji to turn on than my 15watt fluorotube, so this fits some of my experience, but in this world of ultra-standardization, I am surprised.

And, I am sorry to think I have to play that game.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 17, 2009, 02:46:22 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 17, 2009, 01:46:11 PM
@ Pirate88179

Your EB is just like any other battery except you made it yourself. It gets its energy from the electrodes which are used up in the process of generating voltage.

This is not true at all. There is an EE on my youube videos saying the same thing. He also says I need water for the electrolyte for the reaction. I told him my best readings are in totally dry soil and he says that is impossible. The electrodes do NOT get used up in this configuration. For those that don't know about how an earth battery works I suggest reading the research done by us on those two earth battery topics. Through our experimentation we proved it is not galvanic and the electrodes do not deteriorate at all. You can light an led with 2 copper pipes cut from the same tube if you get the spacing and alignment correct. How can you have a glavanic reaction with 2 similar metals? I asked this EE this and he said you can't get any volts from 2 copper pipes. I have done it and seen it and he has not.

Please read the research done on the earth batteries before making definitive statements about them that are not correct. Don't take our word for it, make one yourself and see, then you will know. Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 17, 2009, 02:46:40 PM

Q jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on May 17, 2009, 02:30:01 PM
As I understand this to call a lightbulb 4 watts means that at 120 volts it draws 33.4mA and so V x A= W therefore 4 watts.

Yes. But it will only be 4 watts if both 120 volts and 33 ma are available. If 120 volts is available but only 10 ma is available, then the tube will only be using 120 X 0.01 = 1.2 watts. In the JT the output can have 120 volts but not also 30 ma and so it can not light the tube to its full brightness.

Actually, in the JT we are not using the tube the same as if it were in a light fixture. We are using it more like a neon tube.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 17, 2009, 02:50:36 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 17, 2009, 02:30:01 PM
But standard 120 volt 60Hz bulbs?

assuming the voltage does not change.
you need to understand why in some cases you can force more amps in a device, while in other cases you can't.

the higher the heat of the filament of a bulb, the greater it resistance will become.
if the resistance increase the current passing through the filament will be proportionaly limited by that resistance.
the vacum, or inert gase, inside the bulb prevent it from interacting with other gases that could destroy the filament.

the filaments of such bulbs are made with materials that can support the heat while emitting light.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 17, 2009, 02:57:35 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 17, 2009, 12:04:21 PM
@ gadgetmall

It looks like the 69 mA is with no load. I think that battery drain will increase when fluorescent tubes are put on output. Can you check to see what battery drain is when your circuit is lighting a fluorescent tube?

no that was with a load . it was 65 ma without . I have it much lower now 59 ma with a load . It will get better than that because My fugi mod ,one of them is 15 ma with a load on a 45 watt cfl . now its not as bright but it stays lit longer than 16 hours on 1.4 volt Nimh @2500 mah
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 17, 2009, 03:00:49 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 17, 2009, 02:46:40 PM

Actually, in the JT we are not using the tube the same as if it were in a light fixture. We are using it more like a neon tube.

What does this mean?

How are we doing this? Are we using volts plus something else?

thank you,
jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 17, 2009, 03:03:50 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 17, 2009, 01:39:13 PM
@ jeanna

First it is a 4 watt tube. That means it uses 4 watts when plugged into 120 volt AC supply.

I am surprised you asked about this. If you replace your 10 ohm resistor that you connect in series with the 1.5 volt battery to measure current with a 100 watt 10 ohm resistor do you really think that the battery is going to deliver 100 watts into it just because it is labled 100 watts? The 100 watts is the maximum power that can be put into the resistor without damaging it. Consider it a game. When you see something that says "100 watts" you need to play the game of "what in the world do they mean by that?".

The 4 watts are what it takes to Light the Filaments and get em hot and vaporize mercury as all floros have Filaments and the filaments are rated just like an incandescent 60 watt bulb. We dont need no stinkin filaments with cold electricity. So the actual power to lite them will be in the milliamp range on a jt

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 17, 2009, 03:08:22 PM

@ Gadget:

That is my understanding as well. Similar in the way the Dr. Stiffler replications light a tube, all high volts and high frequency, very low mA's. I'll bet we could light a tube in which the filaments were broken, what do you think?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 17, 2009, 03:08:37 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 17, 2009, 02:26:30 PM
I think this is correct.

The output is wrong . well its right from yesterday . i posted the corrected one today . everything else looks ok
The input is anode cathode same with out
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 17, 2009, 03:13:00 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 17, 2009, 02:46:22 PM

... How can you have a glavanic reaction with 2 similar metals? I asked this EE this and he said you can't get any volts from 2 copper pipes. I have done it and seen it and he has not.

...Don't take our word for it, make one yourself and see, then you will know. Thanks.

Bill

Yes Bill,

And, for anyone's interest I supply the following information:

0.012V copper to copper today.
These are 2 copper pipes I stuck in the ground over a year ago.
The reason they are there was to see what the non-galvanic 'currents' were that are in my back yard.

0.429V between one of those copper pipes and a stubblefield generator that I never removed. (the one that killed my meter last fall.)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 17, 2009, 03:13:50 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 17, 2009, 03:08:22 PM
@ Gadget:

That is my understanding as well. Similar in the way the Dr. Stiffler replications light a tube, all high volts and high frequency, very low mA's. I'll bet we could light a tube in which the filaments were broken, what do you think?

Bill

YES my ring Floro Is burnt out and wont light normally because the filaments are broke but i still light it .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 17, 2009, 03:14:31 PM

@ Pirate88179

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 17, 2009, 02:46:22 PM
This is not true at all.

Please read the research done on the earth batteries before making definitive statements about them that are not correct.

You are welcome to think I am wrong. I am a firm believer in experimental proof trumping theory. So I would say go with your experimental proof. But, just keep in mind that maybe you are not completely understanding what is happening. You might also look at your electrodes after a couple of years and see if they are still all there.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 17, 2009, 03:29:02 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 17, 2009, 03:13:50 PM
YES my ring Floro Is burnt out and wont light normally because the filaments are broke but i still light it .

Oh really?
That is exciting. I have 3 burnt out cfl's I was unwilling to toss or even recycle (same thing most places)

OK now, I can take them apart with some gusto.
Actually one was not burned out itself; it was threatening to set my house on fire. It will feel good to open that one up!

thanks,

jeanna

edit
My take on your drawing from last night is that the 2 diodes are going the same way (out of the secondary wires) and both are then going through caps on to the light or meter etc. Is that correct?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 17, 2009, 03:31:01 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on May 17, 2009, 03:13:00 PM
0.012V copper to copper today.

I am not saying this is correct. But I think it is possible.

There are currents in the ground between metals that are there besides your copper pipes. Some of these metals are just part of the soil and some are objects put into the ground for one reason or another. When you put your two coopper pipes in the ground they may just be acting like probes on a voltmeter and reading the voltage that is generated by the currents that are already there flowing in the ground.

If that is the case, then I think it is probably fair to say that the EB is getting its voltage from the ground and not from the electrodes.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 17, 2009, 03:41:53 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 17, 2009, 03:31:01 PM
...

If that is the case, then I think it is probably fair to say that the EB is getting its voltage from the ground and not from the electrodes.

I think like the ocean and the atmosphere, that these currents in the earth are AC. or Random C at least.

It is very difficult to collect AC as everyone here is showing. If you collect it you must stop it from continuing to happen. It is from the caps that Bill uses that one can suspect that there really is a lot of AC in the ground. Enough to believe that the stories one hears about Nathan Stubblefield lighting up the hill and heating his house could be true.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 17, 2009, 03:48:54 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 17, 2009, 03:08:37 PM
The output is wrong . well its right from yesterday . i posted the corrected one today .
Gadget

I just looked again, I am not sure if this (xee's) is not the same for the output??

BTW what is the value of the disc cao?

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 17, 2009, 03:50:20 PM

@ Xee2:

I wrote and submitted this 5 minutes ago but...it disappeared so I am trying it again.

I am the first to admit I, nor probably anyone else, fully understands what is happening with the EB's. To me, the mystery is part of the fun. My carbon rods have been in the earth since Nov. of 2007 and I dug them up to move them farther away for my new set-up. They looked brand new to me once I cleaned the mud off them. My understanding, limited as it is, is that any deterioration will occur on the anode side. (magnesium or whatever is used) My small Mag. blocks looked ok too but, that is only visual. If I were more of a scientist like Jeanna, I would have weighed them very accurately before burying them. I have no way to do that with great accuracy and, I did not think of it until just now. Stubblefield always said he had no damage to his metals even after years in the ground. I doubt he weighed his either though. The dry ground part of this threw me as it seems counter-intuitive but, several testers reported this from different areas of the world.

So, I feel like there is a lot more to this that needs to be explored. there are several "working" theories as to where the energy comes from. Telluric currents, grid leakages, (In Stubblefiled's time, there was no grid) molten earth core (iron and nickel) spinning and reacting with the copper in the upper crust like a generator, etc. I have no idea which of these, if any, is the real case.

You should try this sometime. You can do it on a small scale very fast and cheap. Maybe you will be the one to figure out why it is happening. If you decide to give it a go, pm me and I can give you some good links on alignments and stuff. Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 17, 2009, 03:55:48 PM

@ jeanna

If it is AC, perhaps it is from the power lines. The pole transformers have an earth ground and currents run through this and capacitively couple to the wires. This creates a lot of AC ground currents near the poles with transformers on them. Most older houses were required to have an earth ground at the fuse box and these also could generate AC currents in the ground. The problem in understanding what is going on is that there are so many unknown variables. So I think your approach and Bill's of just saying "I did this and it worked" is possibly the best that can be done.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 17, 2009, 04:06:31 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 17, 2009, 03:55:48 PM
@ jeanna

If it is AC, perhaps it is from the power lines. The pole transformers have an earth ground and currents run through this and capacitively couple to the wires. This creates a lot of AC ground currents near the poles with transformers on them. Most older houses were required to have an earth ground at the fuse box and these also could generate AC currents in the ground. The problem in understanding what is going on is that there are so many unknown variables. So I think your approach and Bill's of just saying "I did this and it worked" is possibly the best that can be done.

Xee2:

You hit it exactly here. If I put up an antenna and catch radio station waves and can make light out of it for free, and it does not cost the radio station any power loss at all, then I will do it. If my local power company, or a house, has ac leakage into the ground and I can use it to light my home for free, I will do it. It is there anyway and will not cost anyone anything more if I do or don't.

But, as I mentioned in the above post a few minutes earlier, in Stubblefield's time, there was no grid. It was late 1800's and he lived in a remote area of Kentucky.

So, my bottom line is, yes I would love to know where this is coming from and how it works which would help me exploit it more efficiently I am sure, but, it is not needed for me to know. Does that make any sense? (I think better than I type most of the time)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 17, 2009, 04:06:38 PM

@ gadgetmall

I looked at your drawing again and I do not see what I did wrong. I did combine two parallel caps into one for simplicity, but that is electrically equivalent. If you can tell me what is wrong I will correct it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 17, 2009, 04:44:34 PM

@ gadgetmall

Jeanna pointed out my mistake. Thanks jeanna. So, is this correct?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on May 17, 2009, 05:35:42 PM

@all

Great work again !

I personally only use the full wave bridge because it is the most efficient , it allow 2 time more current to come out then a single or double diode rectification .

Voltage double are nice , i may use them to show off , since i already got 2X850 volts rectified dc , now double that 3400 volts ? , on a regular 2n2222. Change the transistor and then !? ...

Ok some more idea , there is a chip by texas instrument that is basicly a jt , but will not produce those high current but could be used to make the 1.5 volt to run a jt from basically nothing or everything is a point of view, there are some already made piezo jt texas instrument that deliver out to 3 v . No everyone has room to use a Earth battery , but also how many solar panel would you need to produce more energy even if not working 24 h a day .

I found some interesting link on magnetic current , http://www.crunchgear.com/2008/10/09/magnetic-battery-discovery-may-lead-to-cooler-laptops/

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 17, 2009, 05:54:58 PM

KK1:

Now you talking! By the way, congratulations on your high output. That is really fantastic.

I know that Gadget has solar cells on his site (for a very reasonable price I might add) and I was thinking of adding the other ones I got from electronics goldmine to the EB set-up eventually. (Gadget has probably already done this or at least has plans to) I am also considering adding a small wind turbine (it has to be real small as I live in a small apt.) to the mix as well. This is what I call total energy production. Not just one thing or one source but, heck if they are all there waiting to be used, let's use them. Once folks get into using very large supercaps (Gadget also has these and it's the best deal on them I have seen anywhere) they don't care what charges them or, how many sources it comes from. Once charged, they can run just about anything you want to run.

I just wanted to post this for folks that might think I am married to the EB as an energy source. I want it all, EB, solar, wind, and, we can get it for a hell of a lot cheaper than these energy magazines tell us. One day, hopefully soon, I will get another house and then I can play all I want with different energy sources. The good thing about KY is that the power company HAS to buy all of your excess power back, not at wholesale, but at the retail price it charges its customers. Of course, if everyone did this they would change that law I am sure, but for the first few that do it, it will be a good way to generate income.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 17, 2009, 06:04:44 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on May 17, 2009, 05:35:42 PM
I personally only use the full wave bridge because it is the most efficient , it allow 2 time more current to come out then a single or double diode rectification .

you do.
but i remind you that your jt's coils and pickups are made in such a way that the transistor's base strenght is almost not affected when letting the current flow in either direction in your pickup coils.

what is benefic in a particular setup might not be in all setups.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 17, 2009, 06:07:56 PM

@ gadgetmall

The base coil looks like it has two inductors on it. If so, do you have both in series or are you only using one of them?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on May 17, 2009, 06:43:04 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on May 17, 2009, 06:04:44 PM
you do.
but i remind you that your jt's coils and pickups are made in such a way that the transistor's base strenght is almost not affected when letting the current flow in either direction in your pickup coils.

what is benefic in a particular setup might not be in all setups.

@nop

Yes i made most of the steps on the coil design front but i see a future where some more steps will be needed going beyond cfl and leds.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 17, 2009, 06:44:48 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 17, 2009, 06:07:56 PM
@ gadgetmall

The base coil looks like it has two inductors on it. If so, do you have both in series or are you only using one of them?

are in series seperated and joined at the middle . ferrite rod slides .. here is the output circuit in cave man style

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 17, 2009, 06:55:57 PM

OK gadget,
I was about to post to xee that there is one cap he has missed in his drawing. I was trying to redraw it for myself and I saw this, and I cannot finish until it is clarified either.

Now your hand drawn has only 2 caps in the output part also?? ??

Plus I can't follow what that means, "separated and joined in the middle".
I can't do that one at all! :D

please help!

thanks,
jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on May 17, 2009, 06:55:59 PM

@all

Any of you know what rochelle salt is ?

http://rimstar.org/materials/piezo/rochelle1.htm

It was the crystal used in the head of those old record player , on the net you will easily find that they generate energy when under pressure , i wonder if we could just pulse them !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 17, 2009, 07:06:41 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on May 17, 2009, 06:43:04 PM
...but i see a future where some more steps will be needed going beyond cfl and leds.

You know Mark,

In a world where there are no lightbulbs, the night time light is the most important thing by far.

Gadget must live for small periods without electricity and I used to live in an area so rural that when 100 trees fell in a big storm it might take over a week for the lines to be cleared. It is really important to be able to see at night. And without the air pollution of the candles or oil burning for light. Both are hydrocarbons and both are in the enclosed space of your house.

The fridge and the toaster and dvd player are all important to a degree, but the lighting really IS the most important.

Now, the teleportation machine is high on my list of up and coming, so don't get me wrong here, I just want to add this perspective of the ultimate importance of having the lights on at night..

jeanna

edit

QuoteAny of you know what rochelle salt is ?

http://rimstar.org/materials/piezo/rochelle1.htm

It was the crystal used in the head of those old record player , on the net you will easily find that they generate energy when under pressure , i wonder if we could just pulse them !

All sorts of info is on the Hutchison crystal battery thread in the "other batteries section" right next to Stubblefield battery.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 17, 2009, 07:21:12 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 17, 2009, 06:55:57 PM
OK gadget,
I was about to post to xee that there is one cap he has missed in his drawing. I was trying to redraw it for myself and I saw this, and I cannot finish until it is clarified either.

Now your hand drawn has only 2 caps in the output part also?? ??

Plus I can't follow what that means, "separated and joined in the middle".
I can't do that one at all! :D

please help!

thanks,
jeanna

Ok i have two caps in parallel on My cucirt atthe end/ I noticed a bit more output with two on top of each other . As far as that goldmine inductor coil . think of it as one coil and just spread the middle a bit.Thats all . a little space in the middle . Its really two small coils joined in the middle and now we have one coil

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 17, 2009, 07:27:36 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on May 17, 2009, 06:55:59 PM
@all

Any of you know what rochelle salt is ?

http://rimstar.org/materials/piezo/rochelle1.htm

It was the crystal used in the head of those old record player , on the net you will easily find that they generate energy when under pressure , i wonder if we could just pulse them !

Mk1 Hey . I still need what you offered . Non of my Mk design work because none of My good torroids will work with three and 4 turns . or 3 and 7 . they work fine at 11 and 11 up but i get no volts except the way i did it on this last one . With out the darlington 104 cap at the base and output circuit i get 60-80 volts with a diode and cap and 2n3904 . so those parts make all the difference . good thing is the low input so far on the darlington to make it amplify !
Gadget .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 17, 2009, 07:29:22 PM

Rochelle salt is a pizo electric, just like tourmaline and a few others. I believe it is the cheapest and easiest to come by. Pizo material is very weird. We used to machined large disks of the stuff for a military application. To hold it on our magnetic chucks on the surface grinders we would wax it to precision ground steel plates. Well, to wax it you have to heat it. Evidently, when you heat this stuff, it builds up a charge. We found out the hard way. Then, we discovered that, if you discharge it when it is hot, when it cools, it builds up another like charge. We learned the hard way once again. the material supplier warned us about this later (too late) and said these were capable of putting out over 3,000 volts in a single discharge. No wonder it hurt. Yes, I was the one that learned these lessons the hard way. I don't recall the name of the composition but we just called it pizo material.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 17, 2009, 07:41:32 PM

here is the thread

Quotehttp://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=972.0

An Italian contributor named sutra told about rochelle salt and gave the recipe. Or someone else did. Sutra lived near someplace that had a natural supply or something like that.

It is easily made using sodium carbonate which is washing soda and cream of tartar. but check out that thread.

I wonder if one of them like Koen1 would be interested in pulsing one of their already-made crystal concoctions.?? or tourmaline? or magnetite?

ha

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 17, 2009, 08:03:16 PM

the EB is both galvanic and not galvanic at same time.
xee2 and Pirate88179 are both part right about what they are saying.

there are charges potentials imbalances in earth soil.
is it not much different then taking a measurement across a resistor.
those charges imbalances can be caused by a lots of things, be it chimical or not.
the electrodes are not always what is causing the chimical charges imbalances phenomena.

from what i understand of nature, everythings affect every other things in a way or in an other.
i have never saw a single phenomena occuring without an other phenomena also being present.
you can see the dominance of a specific phenomena in nature, but they are never alone.
everything in nature is in an imbalenced state and are trying to balance themself.

@gadgetmall
filaments in cfl are use to heat and ionize the cfl's mecury vapor, not to vaporise it, it is already in a vapor state.
this is needed at 60Hz in order to excite the vapor to a point that it start to conduct current, so it can emit UV light.
the intense UV light is then poorly converted to visible light by the phosphor on the tube's wall.
the filaments are only using a small part of the current provided by the ballast.

an ordinary 4 feet tube ballast is normaly 80 watt with a 7.5kV output.
ask yourself why, at 7.5kV, it still can't light without the heater filaments and why a jt can light them up without the filaments.
what is the biggest difference between the 2 supplies...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 17, 2009, 08:31:00 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on May 17, 2009, 08:03:16 PM
the EB is both galvanic and not galvanic at same time.
xee2 and Pirate88179 are both part right about what they are saying.

there are charges potentials imbalances in earth soil.
is it not much different then taking a measurement across a resistor.
those charges imbalances can be caused by a lots of things, be it chimical or not.
the electrodes are not always what is causing the chimical charges imbalances phenomena.

from what i understand of nature, everythings affect every other things in a way or in an other.
i have never saw a single phenomena occuring without an other phenomena also being present.
you can see the dominance of a specific phenomena in nature, but they are never alone.
everything in nature is in an imbalenced state and are trying to balance themself.

@gadgetmall
filaments in cfl are use to heat and ionize the cfl's mecury vapor, not to vaporise it, it is already in a vapor state.
this is needed at 60Hz in order to excite the vapor to a point that it start to conduct current, so it can emit UV light.
the intense UV light is then poorly converted to visible light by the phosphor on the tube's wall.
the filaments are only using a small part of the current provided by the ballast.

an ordinary 4 feet tube ballast is normaly 80 watt with a 7.5kV output.
ask yourself why, at 7.5kV, it still can't light without the heater filaments and why a jt can light them up without the filaments.
what is the biggest difference between the 2 supplies...

No there is liquid Mercury in it and it vaporizes from the heat of the filiment. changes from a solid to a gas from the heat he Gas that is in it is Argon or krypton or xexon not mercury vapor. Have you ever noticed silver coating on th ends of a tube . patent says :n combination with a discharge lamp comprising an elongated light-transmitting arc tube containing a predetermined amount of mercury which when fully vaporized during normal operation of said lamp will provide a predetermined pressure of mercury vapor therein, and an outer light-transmitting envelope having an interior surface spaced from and enclosing said arc tube, the improvement which comprises: You need to read up on them here . After the mercury Vaporizes the Starter turns off the filiments and iniatiates the Hv to Light the tube . after the tube is lit the Mercury goes solid again . thus that is why you have to restart them . Or the old ones that use current hungry balast . 4 watt floro bulb is the filament wattage .
http://home.howstuffworks.com/fluorescent-lamp2.htm

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 17, 2009, 08:55:38 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 17, 2009, 08:31:00 PM
No there is Mercury in it and it vaporizes from the heat of the filiment. Have you ever noticed silver coating on th eends of a tubr . patent says :n combination with a discharge lamp comprising an elongated light-transmitting arc tube containing a predetermined amount of mercury which when fully vaporized during normal operation of said lamp will provide a predetermined pressure of mercury vapor therein, and an outer light-transmitting envelope having an interior surface spaced from and enclosing said arc tube, the improvement which comprises:

you are assuming that the mercury is in, or on, the filaments.
this is only partly true for the mercury being on the filaments.
it is everywhere in the tube.

Quote
elongated light-transmitting arc tube containing a predetermined amount of mercury

does not mean that the mercury is in a liquid state initially.
it does not say it is not either.

Quote
which when fully vaporized during normal operation

does not mean that the mercury was not, in part, in a vapor state initialy.
it does however mean that part of the mercury is not fully in a vapor state, when not in normal operation.

if what you are assuming was true, a jt would not be able to light cfls.

ever eared about nocive mercury vapors at room temperature ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 17, 2009, 08:59:13 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on May 17, 2009, 08:55:38 PM
you are assuming that the mercury is in, or on, the filaments.
this is only partly true for the mercury being on the filaments.
it is everywhere in the tube.
does not mean that the mercury is in a liquid state initially.
it does not say it is not either.
does not mean that the mercury was not, in part, in a vapor state initialy.
it does however mean that part of the mercury is not fully in a vapor state, when not in normal operation.

if what you are assuming was true, a jt would not be able to light cfls.

I'm not going to argue with you . Yes there is a few drops of liquid mercury in tube light . break the end off one and catch it . I have do it many times .Also take along cold one and tip it back and forth . you can see the mercury roll from side to side . A fugi or high voltage or sec or tesla coil have the HF voltage to overcome and light the argon or xeon like in a neon . for milli amps . As you see they are simply making us spend money on good electricity when we are doing it from a fraction . you wont see these Jts on the widespread market cause Ge want you to spend money on electricity . Now imagin taking all the cfl bulbs that take 26 watts to light the filament in them and take the little toroid in it and change the circuit from hot to cold and then you have alight that runs from 14 ma 1 volt rather than 26 watts at 117 . well then you could light your whole house on less than one watt . they know that will kill the oil and economy . I hate them money grubbing Politics about spend and spend . Look ay Mylow .National security got his but for somthing that can give energy for free.
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 17, 2009, 09:00:16 PM

NOP:

Here is my educated guess. I think that JT's and Dr Stiffler's SEC can light tubes because, at 60 hz there is not enough excitement of the gas inside the tube so they need to add the amps to heat the filament. We can do it because we have substituted higher volts and frequency to excite the atoms in the tube to the same end without the heating effect of the element wich is probably just a resistasnce heater like on a stove (but smaller, of course) and requires amps to heat.

Just a guess based on observations, I have no emphirical data to back this up.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 17, 2009, 09:11:42 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 17, 2009, 09:00:16 PM
NOP:

Here is my educated guess. I think that JT's and Dr Stiffler's SEC can light tubes because, at 60 hz there is not enough excitement of the gas inside the tube so they need to add the amps to heat the filament. We can do it because we have substituted higher volts and frequency to excite the atoms in the tube to the same end without the heating effect of the element wich is probably just a resistasnce heater like on a stove (but smaller, of course) and requires amps to heat.

Just a guess based on observations, I have no emphirical data to back this up.

Bill

Your are right Bill . and you have long tubes look at th ebottom and tilt it back and forth . see the liquid mercury . Also mercury is solid or rather liquid at room temperature not a gas . it only is vapor when heated !
Read all about em here and the element mercury
http://home.howstuffworks.com/fluorescent-lamp1.htm

http://theodoregray.com/PeriodicTable/Elements/080/index.html

GADGET

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 17, 2009, 09:33:07 PM

@gadgetmall
i am not arguing with you.
my point is that you only see one of the posible mercury states at room temperature.
the heaters are not needed after the cfl is in operation.

you are right about the money stuff.
but there are also other things to consider.
the rf can become problematic in a lots of ways.

@Pirate88179
yes, the frequency a the key factor in making the discharges in the tube.
whitch in turn excite the mercury, that when excited will emit UV, etc...

but it is wrong to assume lot of heat is needed to turn liquid mercury into its vapor state.
mercury already release its nocive vapor at room temperature.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 17, 2009, 09:45:11 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on May 17, 2009, 09:33:07 PM
@gadgetmall
i am not arguing with you.
my point is that you only see one of the posible mercury states at room temperature.
the heaters are not needed after the cfl is in operation.

@Pirate88179
yes, the frequency a the key factor in making the discharges in the tube.
whitch in turn excite the mercury, that when excited will emit UV, etc...

but it is wrong to assume lot of heat is needed to turn liquid mercury into its vapor state.
mercury already release its nocive vapor at room temperature.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 17, 2009, 09:46:44 PM

NOP:

I don't disagree with that and let's also consider that, at room temperature as you say, that would also be at atmospheric pressure which in the tube is way, way less so, to me, any out gassing of the mercury vapor would be enhanced by the partial vacuum. So, I don't really know. Perhaps we would never see the full light output of a tube no matter how high a voltage and freq. we put into it without those elements? I assume (bad word) they are there for a reason as it costs money to put them there and if they did not need them, they would not be there.

So, I can see both sides of this just from observations. But, as Gadget said, you can light a tube without those elements.

In a nutshell: I don't know.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 17, 2009, 09:51:58 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 17, 2009, 09:46:44 PM
NOP:

I don't disagree with that and let's also consider that, at room temperature as you say, that would also be at atmospheric pressure which in the tube is way, way less so, to me, any out gassing of the mercury vapor would be enhanced by the partial vacuum. So, I don't really know. Perhaps we would never see the full light output of a tube no matter how high a voltage and freq. we put into it without those elements? I assume (bad word) they are there for a reason as it costs money to put them there and if they did not need them, they would not be there.

So, I can see both sides of this just from observations. But, as Gadget said, you can light a tube without those elements.

In a nutshell: I don't know.

Bill

the gas is a catalyst and give off UV invisible rays . the "LIGHT comes from the Phosphor coating . Different Coatings produce different colors .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 17, 2009, 09:53:35 PM

@ All:

On another note, we just passed another milestone here and are fast approaching another one. I see we now have over 100,000 views of our topic here. In just another few posts, we will have over 6,000 replies!

Just a quick note to thank everyone here participating in our topic. All of you together have made it what it is and I personally thank each and every one of you.

We have made some amazing leaps and discoveries here to this point and I don't see any reason that will not continue. I also believe we have set a high standard for internet forum behavior here as well, for not only this site, but many others.

If I could express how much I have learned from all of you since we started, I would. Trust me when I say it is quite a lot. Most of you are ahead of me in winding JT's and I don't mind. I am just very happy to be a part of such a wonderful, intelligent, caring and sharing group of individuals here.

Thank you all.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 17, 2009, 10:11:46 PM

@all .here is real free light . they run for practically ever . they are small florescent tube coated with a phosphor for different colors . I have had these for 10 years and they give off light in the dark permanet with a tritium gas that produces an electron release much like 10,000 volts in a tv screen and lights the phosphor . . I got these and they are not available in the US .. I call it Alien Technology of sorts .. very cool . Need no light to recharge cause they stay lit all the time for free . I took the lights in the dark with there own light . They are available in the UK however . The Half Life of Tritium is supposed to be 10 to 15 years . I have a watch with tritium dial from the 50s My grandfather gave me and it is still lighting bright enuff to see under the covers of night .! Others have said the radiation is permanent and will last forever .. I have seen these tubes build for the military that are HUGE . As Big as 12 inches and are used By them for light . they Produce Bright Usable light to read by for the Military oF course containing over 10,000 milli curies . these colored tube contain over 100 milli curies of trit. . the legal limit is less than 1 millicuri for a us citizen and that is what you see in Glock sights and navy seal watches .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 17, 2009, 10:28:40 PM

Gadget:

Are those filled with tritium? I had tritium night sites on my old Browning Hi-power 9mm pistol and they were said to last for 10 years as well. (Not as big as those) I want to get some for my Glock 40 cal. one day, they were nice. The sites are about $100.00 or so and, as I said much smaller than those. Very nice.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 17, 2009, 10:33:33 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 17, 2009, 09:46:44 PM
that would also be at atmospheric pressure which in the tube is way, way less so, to me, any out gassing of the mercury vapor would be enhanced by the partial vacuum.

yes, atmospheric pressure is a factor.
is far from being a vaccum, the air is replaced by an inert gase.
it is initialy less then atmospheric pressure, yes.
but the purpose of it is only so the tube don't explode when in operation.

if you look at the documentations gadgetmall posted, you will see that the mercury turning into vapor actually create a pressurisation of the tube.

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 17, 2009, 09:46:44 PM
So, I don't really know. Perhaps we would never see the full light output of a tube no matter how high a voltage and freq. we put into it without those elements? I assume (bad word) they are there for a reason as it costs money to put them there and if they did not need them, they would not be there.

So, I can see both sides of this just from observations. But, as Gadget said, you can light a tube without those elements.

In a nutshell: I don't know.

you can sleep on both your ears, you will be able to light those cfl fully even without the heaters.
what fully vaporise the mercury are the discharges in the tube.

the process start with the ionisation of the gases.
without enough ionisation the cfl won't light.

at 60Hz it take more mercury vapor to cause the initial discharge then at higher frequencies, that is why heater are used.
in other words, the initial resistance of the tube is too high at 60Hz to start conducting without assistance.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 17, 2009, 10:37:25 PM

NOP:

That correlates with my thinking on this. Thank you.

Bill

PS I just noticed we hit 6,000 posts here!!!!!!!!!! (Edit)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 17, 2009, 11:28:12 PM

one more thing.
about the cost aspect of cfl.

it cost less to incorporate heaters then to incorporate a "decent" rf shield.

the tube itself will also emit rf if the power supply is rf based.
that is the reason we do not see those kind of supply in general stores.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 17, 2009, 11:38:53 PM

Good going everyone!

I just passed page 120 so you all must be on page 600 too? (50 posts aper page is much easier to read)

I am half way through the biggo fatso. Winding it sure goes fast when you can just put the whole spool through the middle.

I am putting 240 turns on this one... 60up,60down,across,60up,,60down. So far I have 131 volts on this secondary. I will perfect the primary when I finish the secondary, but for now, it is a slower oscillation. I am just using a 1k ohm resistor, and I am sure I will need a much higher value resistor to keep the frequency from dropping through the floor.

131v
17kHz
1k ohm

at
79ohms I got
275V but only
7.2KHz
This is not a good level because I cannot go much less than 79ohm.
But anyway that is the range so far.

half way

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 18, 2009, 01:32:02 AM

Jeanna . Good Nite :) here is something you might find interesting on the balun used for tuning in series with a resistor choke coil \ May have been posted before . in my archives

gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 18, 2009, 03:14:12 AM

@ Thaelin,

Quote from: Thaelin on May 15, 2009, 11:57:18 PM
Just curious, but has anyone tried to wind the first layer of the pickup coil and then just jump over the two small coils and wind the second layer? This would approximate what tesla did with his pancake which made it perform better.

conductor running the length of the tube to help light the gas. This on a 48" tube. May be an easy way to get more light for the input.

thaelin

Is this what you mean about crossing the Primaries, start winding the secondary, when you get to the primaries, "dont wind over them", but rather pass the wire accross the primaries, then continue to wind another set of coils over the 1st secondary layer.

Fluro toobes, I can remember when these things came out and there was a silver strip which went from end to end, then this strip seem to disappear after a few years.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 18, 2009, 03:51:26 AM

@all,
We had a couple of people here a few days ago, who had a problem with seeing any output from Hazens1 HV circuit. (Including myself over the last weekend).

I mentioned I had taken my Hazens1 replication, in to Dalby, forgetting my red multimeter.
Upon testing, I also could see nothing on the output, and I came up with a theory that it might be the multimeters.

I was right, I'm back home and have made another test, lo and behold, my expensive RED DMM can see the output, but my el cheepo Yellow DMM cannot, it sees only 8volts on AC HV, whilst the Red DMM sees 230.1v.

Please see the photos, the yellow DMM seems to "load up" and wont present a reading, however the Red DMM can read the output.
I switched the yellow DMM to DC HV, there is no DC, the output on the red DMM begins to rise from 230.1 v to 297.6v up to 596volts

Both DMMs were connected in parallel to the output of Hazens1 circuit.

If I short out the Output leads, there is a TINY but very intense white/blue spark, a completly different spark if one shorted the 1.5v cell.
As shore as eggs, I ain't gonna test this with my toungue.

If anyone else has different DMMs, it would be nice if this DMM theory could be verified.

BTW Hazens 1 circuit does work, but, have we progressed so far along now that we all must look at very good quality instruments, instead of the old el-cheepo ones?

This weekend I will be picking up another Bench top power supply, Adjustable 1-30volts, adjustable current 0-2.5 amps

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Thaelin on May 18, 2009, 04:27:20 AM

@Electricme:
That is it. I am not sure of the value it will get as I said. I still have no time to play. I just had to work Sat again. This really bites, I want to hit the bench for a while but not yet. I have a full week comming up too. Please let me know here what is the outcome. Thanks for trying it.

thay

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 18, 2009, 05:03:32 AM

@Gadget,

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 17, 2009, 10:49:12 AM
@ Jim Good Morning . Or night :) Thanks for the Ideas !!and the r wheel!

The ideas and gift, no worries, glad I could help you out Al.
Morning or night, don't know he he, but it sure looks dark outside my window ha ha.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 18, 2009, 05:23:11 AM

@Jeanna,
Very, very true, you hit the nail on the head.

Quote from: jeanna on May 17, 2009, 12:52:22 PM
@NOP and xee,

So, what is the 5 watt tube using if you

1-and
2-
Is this for real?
What on earth CAN you assume?

We seem to be going around in circles.
On the one hand the laws of physics are used recursively to keep all assumptions inside the "Known" box,

(this is reasonable enough for trained people,)

and on the other we cannot assume that when we turn on a 5 watt light that we are giving it what it needs , which in this case would be 5 watts?

thank you for any thoughtful answers,

jeanna

In Australia we have 40w 60w 75w and 100w bayonet light bulbs (and the usual CFLs also, which we are being forced to have).

I found out that 10 years ago, the powers that be, decided to lower the voltage output from the power stations, from 240V ac, to 230vAC.
The upshot is, a regular 100Watt rated light bulb, will not now give out the rated wattage as is read on the glass bulb.
I'ts only slight, but it is so.

Bring onwards the Joule Thief ;D

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 18, 2009, 06:01:25 AM

@xee2 and TheNOP

Quote from: TheNOP on May 17, 2009, 02:00:09 PM
your resistor example is truly what to expect from the watts rating of any electric componants and/or appliances.

but, to me, your first statement is somewhat contradicting your resistor example.
i would say : it can support up to ~4 watts without degrading too fast or blow up.

If I go to the shop and buy a light fitting, say for example a 100Watt light bulb, it will consume "more" wattage/current to produce the 100 watts of light, so it can give the stated output?

BUT,,,,will the same 100 watt light bulb take more current to run, :D
if it is a bulb rated at 240v at 50Hz or
120v at 60Hz?

Remember, as the voltage is lowered, the current go's up to compensate for the lower voltage.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 18, 2009, 06:08:07 AM

@Bill
You are correct when you say, free light, power etc etc when you have taken the energy from the earth. What ever method you use, design or buy dosent come into it as far as I am concerned.

This is the same if I give you a fully charged up battery, and say go for it, use as much as you want.
I know I have to make or buy something to produce the energy, but once the means has been developed to to this (JT) then the energy can be replentished, but then again, energy cannot be destroyed, it just takes a different form, so it exists. ;D

All we do is just tap into the energy source.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 18, 2009, 06:43:32 AM

@Xee2
I let out an Arrrrr when I saw the circuit you drew up as "gadgetmall circuit.jpg"

Quote from: xee2 on May 17, 2009, 02:26:30 PM
I think this is correct.

If you could change the uH coil which is on the Tr1 Base leg, to a "tuned" slug coil that would be good.

This is the way I see its operation.
The signal, hz etc, enters the tank circuit consisting of the fixed capacitor value, which can be adjusted by the fixed, semi value of the resistor. From this point onwards, usually up to this point in time, no-one else has applied a uH/H (henry) choke into this part of the circuit.
(The Jule Thief is growing ha ha)

Now, the choke can also be "tuned" for harmonics, so we take the signal from the tank output and fine tune it here, then feed it into the resistors base leg.
The choke coil oscillates by itself, but you can "tune" this by inserting a graphite core, and screwing it further in or out of the coil, squeesing or widening a coil in the front end of a radio IF section does a similar thing.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 18, 2009, 09:31:50 AM

hey bill have you seen teslas radiant oscilator work? after seeing your earth battery joule thief it dawned on me, you are recreating teslas radiant oscilator.

"The earth has a charge of 96,500 coulombs. With a potential of 360,000 volts, the earth constitutes a capacitor of .25 farads (farads = coulombs/volts). If the formula for calculating the energy stored in a capacitor (E =1/2CV2) is applied to the earth, it turns out that the ambient medium contains 1.6 x 1011 joules or 4.5 megawatt-hours of electrical energy. In order to utilize this high-voltage energy you must do two things â€" make an energy sink and then devise a way of making the â€œsinkâ€ oscillate."

now the planet is a 4.5 megawatt capacitor its collecting energy from somewhere or everywhere and releasing it in the form of lightning, (told you bill i wanted to harness lightning!) a cap simply stores that charge so that means we have a burst of 4.5 mwh but what is our continuous?

the difference between the earth battery and the "radiant oscilator" is that the oscilator uses an arial antenna and a ground. we are using 2 grounds.

the good news is we have our oscilator curcuit all we need is a .3v ? difference to get it to work. or has someone been able to go lower?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 18, 2009, 09:44:53 AM

Quote from: electricme on May 18, 2009, 06:43:32 AM
@Xee2
I let out an Arrrrr when I saw the circuit you drew up as "gadgetmall circuit.jpg"

If you could change the uH coil which is on the Tr1 Base leg, to a "tuned" slug coil that would be good.

This is the way I see its operation.
The signal, hz etc, enters the tank circuit consisting of the fixed capacitor value, which can be adjusted by the fixed, semi value of the resistor. From this point onwards, usually up to this point in time, no-one else has applied a uH/H (henry) choke into this part of the circuit.
(The Jule Thief is growing ha ha)

Now, the choke can also be "tuned" for harmonics, so we take the signal from the tank output and fine tune it here, then feed it into the resistors base leg.
The choke coil oscillates by itself, but you can "tune" this by inserting a graphite core, and screwing it further in or out of the coil, squeesing or widening a coil in the front end of a radio IF section does a similar thing.

jim

Hi Jim / it is a tunable Choke there 4 sure . It has a ferrite .graphite rod in it that slides tight and i have it close . I'll play with more on the next one im building . I tried the mk1 . I just don't have toroid s that like 3 and 4 turns.
@Xee . ya a Slash and and a few bars on that coil symbol please .

@MK! I'll pay you for one !! Please

We need to Discover your 800 volts without a darlington . Wish you had a Number on that toroid but i'll take a blank if you can spare it or the source .

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 18, 2009, 09:58:34 AM

Quote from: electricme on May 18, 2009, 06:01:25 AM
If I go to the shop and buy a light fitting, say for example a 100Watt light bulb, it will consume "more" wattage/current to produce the 100 watts of light, so it can give the stated output?

BUT,,,,will the same 100 watt light bulb take more current to run, :D
if it is a bulb rated at 240v at 50Hz or
120v at 60Hz?

Remember, as the voltage is lowered, the current go's up to compensate for the lower voltage.

what will actually happen current wise depend on the type of light emitting device.

bulb are a resistive type device.
that mean if you lower the voltage, the current will also get lower.
if the resistance was made specially for 240 volts, 100 watts, and you feed it 120 volts, it will use only 50 watts.
if you use a 125volts reated bulb and feed it 240 volts, the filament will blow because you are doubling the current when rising the volts at that level.

note : it is not "100 watts of light".
the light quantity is dependant of the current passing through it, yes.
but that watt rating is not the quantity of the emitted light.

with cfl it is not the same thing.
cfls are not resistive type devices.
they will allow current through them as high as you can provide to them, up until they blow.
4 feets cfl ballast are a "resistive" type of transformer in order to limit the current going to the cfls.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 18, 2009, 10:09:06 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 17, 2009, 10:11:46 PM
@all .here is real free light . they run for practically ever . they are small florescent tube coated with a phosphor for different colors . I have had these for 10 years and they give off light in the dark permanet with a tritium gas that produces an electron release much like 10,000 volts in a tv screen and lights the phosphor . . I got these and they are not available in the US .. I call it Alien Technology of sorts .. very cool . Need no light to recharge cause they stay lit all the time for free . I took the lights in the dark with there own light . They are available in the UK however . The Half Life of Tritium is supposed to be 10 to 15 years . I have a watch with tritium dial from the 50s My grandfather gave me and it is still lighting bright enuff to see under the covers of night .! Others have said the radiation is permanent and will last forever .. I have seen these tubes build for the military that are HUGE . As Big as 12 inches and are used By them for light . they Produce Bright Usable light to read by for the Military oF course containing over 10,000 milli curies . these colored tube contain over 100 milli curies of trit. . the legal limit is less than 1 millicuri for a us citizen and that is what you see in Glock sights and navy seal watches .

I was looking into these a few years back with an idea that maybe I could sandwitch some of these between two small solar panels to get some volts. They are probably not bright enough though!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 18, 2009, 10:15:09 AM

Quote from: jeanna on May 17, 2009, 11:38:53 PM
Good going everyone!

I just passed page 120 so you all must be on page 600 too? (50 posts aper page is much easier to read)

I am half way through the biggo fatso. Winding it sure goes fast when you can just put the whole spool through the middle.

I am putting 240 turns on this one... 60up,60down,across,60up,,60down. So far I have 131 volts on this secondary. I will perfect the primary when I finish the secondary, but for now, it is a slower oscillation. I am just using a 1k ohm resistor, and I am sure I will need a much higher value resistor to keep the frequency from dropping through the floor.

131v
17kHz
1k ohm

at
79ohms I got
275V but only
7.2KHz
This is not a good level because I cannot go much less than 79ohm.
But anyway that is the range so far.

half way

jeanna

Nice work Jeanna, so it sounds like you took my advice to just sliding the spool through the center. Did you have to cut it down smaller?

P.S. Did you see my working Hazen1 design I'm getting 261v no resistor and I think I can get more 300+ well we will see!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 18, 2009, 10:46:02 AM

Quote from: stprue on May 18, 2009, 10:15:09 AM
Nice work Jeanna, so it sounds like you took my advice to just sliding the spool through the center. Did you have to cut it down smaller?

Thanks, no I used the wire from newbiewire and the spool is smaller. It fits right in.
BTW I was in Radio shack the other day and the spools of their wire are now this same kind also. These fit right through the center. I just dropped it into the center. It worked so easily. I hope the ferrite is strong enough, but I am not sure yet.

QuoteP.S. Did you see my working Hazen1 design I'm getting 261v no resistor

No, and since that was my 4th copy using the secondary going all one way then turning and returning all back the other way, I am not going to even think about it anymore.

@Jim,
I had my scope on the Hazens replication. I think that said it all. The voltage was 0.025v on the hazens and without turning the scope off or changing anything on the scope, another toroid from my collection performed exactly as it always does. No, it was not OK. It killed the JT. I think any winding that goes beyond the halfway mark will kill the JT. the MK1 uses 2 such windings, but they are a bit less than halfway around and they are centertapped. It makes all the difference. It not only allows the toroid to pulse the mag field, it enhances it like a swing.

@Arctic Knight,
Perhaps you should actually MAKE a joule thief. I think you will see many many similarities with many of Tesla's writings. I believe we are all seeing these similarities. Just make one... you will see too (and then you will know what we are also seeing).

@Gadget,
What is the size of the disk cap in your diagram? Do you think it matters? I mean the one farthest to the right of the 3 coming off the secondary.
EDIT ADD
these guys have a $25 minimum, but the choke cores are the high flux, in fact this page is all high flux.
http://www.cwsbytemark.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=206_222 (http://www.cwsbytemark.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=206_222)

thank you all,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 18, 2009, 10:50:59 AM

@Gadget and Bill,
You should be able to do this as Bill has suggested.

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 17, 2009, 03:08:22 PM
@ Gadget:

I'll bet we could light a tube in which the filaments were broken, what do you think?

Bill

Taking a looksee inside a Neon light, the closer the 2 seperate electrodes are, the easier it is for them to light up.
Now lets suppose these 2 neon electrodes decide to walk away from each other, a half inch, they will still be able to light up, but, it will take more energy to do so.

Now lets say we seperate the same 2 electrodes, and put them inside a small fluro tube.
OK, we can still light them up, but it takes even more energy to do so.

Now, some smarty pants overnight swaps the neon electrodes for coiled tlectrodes (you was sleepin) he he, and in the morning you turns on the power and it still lights up, ha ha, any electrode will work.

jim
*****************************************
:D ;D :o ::) ;)
OK all,
I got an idea, an I wasnt dreamin, even though I should be in bed.
a single 1N4004 diode is rated to 400volts. After that it could breakdown at higher voltages.

OK, take a string of them and make your own High Voltage Diode.
D1 == 400v solder the next in series so on and so forth.
D2 == 800v
D3 == 1200v
D4 == 1600v
D5 == 2000v

Just keep addiding diodes in series to create an even higher volt diode.

If you have 1n4007 diodes, then it is easier to make a smaller HV diode string setup.

D1 = 1kv add D2 = 2kv add D3 = 3kv add D4 =4kv
C1 C2 C3 C4 = grunt lol

If you put a single 1Kv rated ceramic cap at each diode, them whammo, you got heeps of grunt with HV output, aaaaaarrrrruuuuuggggghhhhh we getting there...........

To test each string, add 1v to each number of diodes in the string, so 5 diodes = 5v
So get a 6 volt battery with a bulb in series and the bulb lights one way, reverse the diode string, the bulb wont light.

PLease see the below circuit modification.

0754 = Poor Mans High Voltage Diode Build
0752 = Hands protection from HV, not gauranteed lol,

Im toooo tired, too silly 4 words
hooroo

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 18, 2009, 10:56:37 AM

Quote from: jeanna on May 18, 2009, 10:46:02 AM
Thanks, no I used the wire from newbiewire and the spool is smaller. It fits right in.
BTW I was in Radio shack the other day and the spools of their wire are now this same kind also. These fit right through the center. I just dropped it into the center. It worked so easily. I hope the ferrite is strong enough, but I am not sure yet.
No, and since that was my 4th copy using the secondary going all one way then turning and returning all back the other way, I am not going to even think about it anymore.

@Jim,
I had my scope on the Hazens replication. I think that said it all. The voltage was 0.025v on the hazens and without turning the scope off or changing anything on the scope, another toroid from my collection performed exactly as it always does. No, it was not OK. It killed the JT. I think any winding that goes beyond the halfway mark will kill the JT. the MK1 uses 2 such windings, but they are a bit less than halfway around and they are centertapped. It makes all the difference. It not only allows the toroid to pulse the mag field, it enhances it like a swing.

@Arctic Knight,
Perhaps you should actually MAKE a joule thief. I think you will see many many similarities with many of Tesla's writings. I believe we are all seeing these similarities. Just make one... you will see too (and then you will know what we are also seeing).

@Gadget,
What is the size of the disk cap in your diagram? Do you think it matters? I mean the one farthest to the right of the 3 coming off the secondary.
EDIT ADD
these guys have a $25 minimum, but the choke cores are the high flux, in fact this page is all high flux.
http://www.cwsbytemark.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=206_222 (http://www.cwsbytemark.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=206_222)

thank you all,

jeanna

Hi Jeanna . The Big Brown Cap you can see what i see . the Blue is 105 and the orange drop is 101 I think any ceramic cap will work . I think My laser doubler i made had .01 3000 volt disk caps if i remember . I trie a 10 and it was not at good as the 104 105 though . i just added the big disk and the voltage got a little higher . I want to make another one and Ditch the tip121 darlington . Without it the volts are 9 times lower . I need marks toroid . I have tried an Mk1 and 2 . they didn't work for me . Low volts ... its the toroid s i have i guess . this allaround design is working great but i cheated with the darlington and V doubler . I dont really care because i did it first but i prefer using a 2n2222 or 2n3904 or one of my germaniums to achieve what mark is doing .

Gadget
Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 18, 2009, 10:57:23 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 18, 2009, 01:32:02 AM
Jeanna . Good Nite :) here is something you might find interesting on the balun used for tuning in series with a resistor choke coil \ May have been posted before . in my archives

gadget

What is a ballun?

In this the writer describes the results in decibels.
You were away for a while, and I have a possibility to see dB on my scope, but I do not know what it means in terms of things like volts and amps or why it would be used.
Can you explain why it is used for testing?

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 18, 2009, 11:06:46 AM

Thanks gadget.
If it says 400 it is 40picoF if it says 100 it is 10 picoF either way it is very small and exactly what Tesla described needing for very fast frequency.
It looks more like 100 than 400, but the bump has a shadow, and it is a bit hard to read for sure.
Either way Thanks for that info.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 18, 2009, 11:13:43 AM

@jeanna
in a voltage multiplyer circuit, the bigger the caps values, the more amps you will get at the output.
if your supply can provide it that is.

a balun is a type of transformer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformer) that can convert signals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_(telecommunication)) that are balanced (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balanced_line)(relative to the "ground") to signals that are unbalanced (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unbalanced_line).

They are also often used to change impedance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Characteristic_impedance).
ex: high impedance to 8 Ohms impedence audio transformer.

QuoteA balun's function is generally to achieve compatibility between systems, and as such, finds extensive application in modern communications, particularly in realising frequency conversion mixers to make cellular phone and data transmission networks possible.

An RF choke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choke_(electronics)) can be used in place of a balun.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 18, 2009, 11:16:25 AM

hmmm theNOP,
can you put that into layman's terms?

balanced relative to ground?? ??

Quotein a voltage multiplyer circuit, the bigger the caps values, the more amps you will get at the output.

Tesla wasn't looking for amps. He wanted to get frequency of spikes instead of dc amps.

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on May 18, 2009, 11:30:01 AM

@all

The question is when does ac star working looking like dc , at a real high freq would it look like a constant .

@gadget

I will send it to you this week !

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 18, 2009, 11:39:45 AM

Quote from: jeanna on May 18, 2009, 11:16:25 AM
can you put that into layman's terms?
balanced relative to ground?? ??

in any circuit you have a B+ and a ground(not to be confonded with earth ground).
the first is the positive side of the circuit, the other is the negative.
everythings in between those 2 are relative to either of them, but the negative side is commonly used and termed as the circuit ground.

Quote from: jeanna on May 18, 2009, 11:16:25 AM
Tesla wasn't looking for amps. He wanted to get frequency of spikes instead of dc amps.

i was just pointing out that you can play with the current at the multiplier output to some degree.
you want less current, lower the cap's values.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 18, 2009, 11:56:29 AM

@Jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on May 18, 2009, 10:57:23 AM
What is a ballun?

thanks,

jeanna

A ballum is the tiny toroid just under the TV aerial, it changes the signal from 75 ohms to 300 ohms ladder wire, then another is placed inside the TV itself to convert the signal back.
They are also known as matching transformers.

They have the usual primary winding, but I have seen them used as a signal splitter, which is having a single output or several all off the same toroid core.

If a house is in a deep valley and cannot get a TV signal.
Place a TV aerial on top of a hill whith a ballon, connect a 300 ohm ribbon cable to it, get another same size aerial (with another ballon) connect them both up, and point it down towards the valley.
Then all the TVs will receive the signals, and no electric power is involved, it is a passive TV transmitter.

Its almost 2.00am
I'm off to bed
hooroo

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 18, 2009, 12:00:28 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on May 18, 2009, 11:30:01 AM
The question is when does ac star working looking like dc , at a real high freq would it look like a constant .

never.
if you don't rectify it it will keep it AC/pulsed properties.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 18, 2009, 12:24:18 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on May 18, 2009, 12:00:28 PM
never.
if you don't rectify it it will keep it AC/pulsed properties.

YES!

@MK1
and pulsed DC looks like a sinewave when it is plotted over time on the x axis!

@Jim,
Thanks . I understand what a ballun is now.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 18, 2009, 12:38:56 PM

@ electricme

Quote from: electricme on May 18, 2009, 06:01:25 AM
BUT,,,,will the same 100 watt light bulb take more current to run, :D
if it is a bulb rated at 240v at 50Hz or

The watts on the label is the power the bulb uses, not how much light it makes. The light it makes is the Lumens it produces.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 18, 2009, 01:07:34 PM

@ gadgetmall

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 18, 2009, 09:44:53 AM
@Xee . ya a Slash and and a few bars on that coil symbol please .

How about this? Actually, I think it should be labeled "unknown" which is why I did not lable it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 18, 2009, 02:36:41 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 18, 2009, 01:07:34 PM
@ gadgetmall

How about this? Actually, I think it should be labeled "unknown" which is why I did not lable it.

that looks. good . It was in a little bag of assorted inductors I got from goldmine Electronics for 2.49

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 18, 2009, 05:41:05 PM

Quote from: Thaelin on May 17, 2009, 10:57:13 AM
As said, if you start stacking these doublers, dont touch the wrong place. Remember the voltage tripler in TV's nowdays puts out 35k and its a killer.

thaelin

thaelin i believe its the amps thats the killer, more specifically down to 0.01 amps can stop a heart. anything lower than that and you will live. it will hurt, possibly burn, but you will live.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 18, 2009, 05:47:43 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 17, 2009, 12:52:22 PM
@NOP and xee,

So, what is the 5 watt tube using if you

1-and
2-
Is this for real?
What on earth CAN you assume?

We seem to be going around in circles.
On the one hand the laws of physics are used recursively to keep all assumptions inside the "Known" box,

(this is reasonable enough for trained people,)

and on the other we cannot assume that when we turn on a 5 watt light that we are giving it what it needs , which in this case would be 5 watts?

thank you for any thoughtful answers,

jeanna

jenna what is going on with led's and florescents is we are using a high frequency high voltage circuit that does not pass FCC regulations because if you get it near a CRT (old tube tvs and monitors) it will cause distortion. if we were to utilize such a circuit we would have to find where the interference comes from and prevent it from happening. im suspecting it uses the power lines in the house to basically cause all kinds of fun.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 18, 2009, 05:55:51 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 17, 2009, 02:46:22 PM
This is not true at all. There is an EE on my youube videos saying the same thing. He also says I need water for the electrolyte for the reaction. I told him my best readings are in totally dry soil and he says that is impossible. The electrodes do NOT get used up in this configuration. For those that don't know about how an earth battery works I suggest reading the research done by us on those two earth battery topics. Through our experimentation we proved it is not galvanic and the electrodes do not deteriorate at all. You can light an led with 2 copper pipes cut from the same tube if you get the spacing and alignment correct. How can you have a glavanic reaction with 2 similar metals? I asked this EE this and he said you can't get any volts from 2 copper pipes. I have done it and seen it and he has not.

Please read the research done on the earth batteries before making definitive statements about them that are not correct. Don't take our word for it, make one yourself and see, then you will know. Thanks.

Bill

to further the EB statement i can take 2 2" galvanized nails and get .011 volts from them less than an inch appart!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 18, 2009, 06:14:24 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 18, 2009, 10:46:02 AM
@Arctic Knight,
Perhaps you should actually MAKE a joule thief. I think you will see many many similarities with many of Tesla's writings. I believe we are all seeing these similarities. Just make one... you will see too (and then you will know what we are also seeing).

jeanna

i have been making joule thiefs, thats how i found this thread in the beginning. and ive been doing a lot of various experiments with it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 18, 2009, 06:25:54 PM

@all

Hazen1 progress!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 18, 2009, 06:33:46 PM

Quote from: stprue on May 18, 2009, 06:25:54 PM
@all

Hazen1 progress!

The one on top should be second but what I did was on the top pic I added a metalized cap. The first pic was my messy start to make sure it worked. In third pic I lost the POT and added a supercap 2.5v at 10F. I also grounded the positive and negative. As you can see in the final pic 331.5vDC...not to bad considering the gauge is 24 and not the recommended 26. So there is probably 50 less turns or so.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 18, 2009, 06:35:57 PM

Neve mind the order of the pic's is correct ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 18, 2009, 06:38:15 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on May 18, 2009, 05:47:43 PM
jenna what is going on with led's and florescents is we are using a high frequency high voltage circuit that does not pass FCC regulations because if you get it near a CRT (old tube tvs and monitors) it will cause distortion. if we were to utilize such a circuit we would have to find where the interference comes from and prevent it from happening. im suspecting it uses the power lines in the house to basically cause all kinds of fun.

Artic_Knight

I agree that RF interference could be a problem

If I was trying to covertly stop JTs from being used I would probably talk with the FCC .
I think we should be careful .......especially when we start using higher power .

JTs might be transmitting more power than expected .

I was reading a magazine ( Popular Mechanics I think )
I read about a new idea for a radar antenna for stealth fighters .
I guess a problem with stealth fighters is their antennas are visable to radar .
This antenna was different . ......it was a glass tube filled with a gas .....argon if I remember right .
The antenna is invisable to radar because it is non conductive .
When they want to use the radar they apply enough voltage to ionize the
the gas ,creating a good conductor .

Now .......if an argon filled tube can be used as an antenna ..... wouldn't it make sense that a floro tube would also tend to act as an antenna if the frequency was high enough ?

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 18, 2009, 06:41:46 PM

Quote from: electricme on May 18, 2009, 06:01:25 AM
If I go to the shop and buy a light fitting, say for example a 100Watt light bulb, it will consume "more" wattage/current to produce the 100 watts of light, so it can give the stated output?

BUT,,,,will the same 100 watt light bulb take more current to run, :D
if it is a bulb rated at 240v at 50Hz or
120v at 60Hz?

Remember, as the voltage is lowered, the current go's up to compensate for the lower voltage.

jim

i just had a flash and think i understand what you really meant.

to understand what is happening, you need to know how those bulbs are working.
basicly: An electric current passes through a filament, heating it to a point is produce light.

the key factors of the quantity of light are :
- the filament's total surface area.
- how bright it glow(the resistance control the watts that make it glow).

assuming a 240volts bulb is made from the same materials as a 120volts bulb.
the only thing that can make a difference are the 2 things above.
in order to allow the same wattage at 240 and 120 volts, you need a filament of different resistance for each one.
the 240volts filament will be thinner and longer.
the 120volts that will be thicker and shorter.
you should end up with about the same surface area for both,
and with same wattage, you will get the same amount of light.
one is using more current, yes.
but, with the same materials and different resistance, they use the same quantity of energy to make the same quantity of light.

you can try to connect a 120volts bulb to a 12volts 600 amps car battery, you won't be able to make the required amps to flow through the filament to reach 100 watts because of its resistance.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 18, 2009, 06:44:19 PM

Quote from: stprue on May 18, 2009, 06:35:57 PM
Neve mind the order of the pic's is correct ;D

I forgot to mention for those of you that don't know my power supply is set to 1.5vdc@.5amps The set up above uses about .43 I think ???

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 18, 2009, 06:46:49 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on May 18, 2009, 06:41:46 PM
i just had a flash and think i understand what you really meant.

to understand what is happening, you need to know how those bulbs are working.
basicly: An electric current passes through a filament, heating it to a point is produce light.

the key factors of the quantity of light are :
- the filament's total surface area.
- how bright it glow(the resistance control the watts that make it glow).

assuming a 240volts bulb is made from the same materials as a 120volts bulb.
the only thing that can make a difference are the 2 things above.
in order to allow the same wattage at 240 and 120 volts, you need a filament of different resistance for each one.
the 240volts filament will be thinner and longer.
the 120volts that will be thicker and shorter.
you should end up with about the same surface area for both,
and with same wattage, you will get the same amount of light.
one is using more current, yes.
but, with the same materials and different resistance, they use the same quantity of energy to make the same quantity of light.

you can try to connect a 120volts bulb to a 12volts 600 amps car battery, you won't be able to make the required amps to flow through the filament to reach 100 watts because of its resistance.

That's right and the 240 stuff will also last longer! Well not sure if the last sentence is correct!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 18, 2009, 06:52:34 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on May 18, 2009, 05:41:05 PM
thaelin i believe its the amps thats the killer, more specifically down to 0.01 amps can stop a heart. anything lower than that and you will live. it will hurt, possibly burn, but you will live.

it depend on a lots of factors.
mainly, your body resistance and the travelling path of the current through the body.

taser are said to output less amps then what is said can kill.
still, peoples have died because a taser was use on them...

don't fool with high voltage, it won't be forgiving.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 18, 2009, 08:28:04 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on May 18, 2009, 06:38:15 PM

Artic_Knight

I agree that RF interference could be a problem

If I was trying to covertly stop JTs from being used I would probably talk with the FCC .
I think we should be careful .......especially when we start using higher power .

JTs might be transmitting more power than expected .

I was reading a magazine ( Popular Mechanics I think )
I read about a new idea for a radar antenna for stealth fighters .
I guess a problem with stealth fighters is their antennas are visable to radar .
This antenna was different . ......it was a glass tube filled with a gas .....argon if I remember right .
The antenna is invisable to radar because it is non conductive .
When they want to use the radar they apply enough voltage to ionize the
the gas ,creating a good conductor .

Now .......if an argon filled tube can be used as an antenna ..... wouldn't it make sense that a floro tube would also tend to act as an antenna if the frequency was high enough ?

gary

I'm A licensed Amateur radio operator and can transmit all frequency's in the ham band including hf vhf uhf microwave , radar etc.. so let em try and stop me !! Yes they are all transmitters but i doubt they go out the confinements of our houses ,yards ecs .. Now the SEC that's a different story on the distance . can't wait for My Sec parts !! The Argon tube radar reminds me of the gigaplexer i played with 15 years ago . you can also pick up those signals on an old radar detector . I have had Jet fly over and My detector go full strength and then diminish after the jet went by ..Cool . if wort come to worst a jt can be caged and shielded and stray rf probably can be minimized with ferrite beads on the leads of the parts ETC and tuning to rid the offending harmonic .. I might try this on My Tv disruptor or i might just sell it as a Tv disruptor :)

Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 18, 2009, 08:53:44 PM

Quote from: stprue on May 18, 2009, 06:46:49 PM
That's right and the 240 stuff will also last longer! Well not sure if the last sentence is correct!

i am not sure if it is true either.
but i assume, since both filaments are made differently in size, one should last as long as the other.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 18, 2009, 09:39:33 PM

Hi everyone,
I have been reading one of the Tesla lectures today.

He says that it is not so much the frequency itself (in a certain application) but the rate of change of the frequency that makes the big difference - or big something.

My question is what would be the rate of the change of frequency over time? (that is what he said)

The frequency is the number of pulses over time so pulses per second- Hz
The rate of the change of the frequency over time. Hz²?

It reminds me of acceleration per second per second.

I see waves of pulses moving over time on the scope. If all the pulses were the same height and distance apart in time maybe this would be weaker than the pulses as I see them. But what I see does not seem to me to be change of frequency over time it is more change of strength or height of pulse over time. The tops of the pulses changes over time and gets higher and lower sometimes in a beautiful and complex pattern.

Still not sure what he meant.
Does anybody know?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 18, 2009, 10:15:42 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 18, 2009, 09:39:33 PM
Hi everyone,
I have been reading one of the Tesla lectures today.

He says that it is not so much the frequency itself (in a certain application) but the rate of change of the frequency that makes the big difference - or big something.

My question is what would be the rate of the change of frequency over time? (that is what he said)

The frequency is the number of pulses over time so pulses per second- Hz
The rate of the change of the frequency over time. Hz²?

It reminds me of acceleration per second per second.

I see waves of pulses moving over time on the scope. If all the pulses were the same height and distance apart in time maybe this would be weaker than the pulses as I see them. But what I see does not seem to me to be change of frequency over time it is more change of strength or height of pulse over time. The tops of the pulses changes over time and gets higher and lower sometimes in a beautiful and complex pattern.

Still not sure what he meant.
Does anybody know?

jeanna

??? ?
the rate of changes of the current = the frequency.

but he is probably talking about modulating a frequency.
i could be wrong tho.

there are 2 kinds of modulations.
-Amplitude Modulation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amplitude_modulation) of a frequency.(AM radio)
-Frequency Modulation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency_modulation).(FM radio)

a mixe of both is also possible.
but, to my knowledge, this method is not used.
except perhap in some obscure, to me, audio frequencies mixers.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 18, 2009, 10:41:55 PM

as i am no tesla i can only venture to guess at that comment but lets look at something. we were talking about "resonance" previously and what if we could find the resonance of frequency modulation? imagine making a curcuit that used its frequency created to create a higher frequency? it would constantly climb! that would be interesting to study!

what about a "warble" basically as AC has a sinewave so would the frequency. what if we could control the speed of a frequency by the ac sinewave? it would go up and down at a preset range IE 1khz to 4khz and back. it would gradually climb and decend. altho it would do it too fast for us to notice perse but it would do it at a gradual rate same as AC. im not sophisticated enough with electronics to begin to compile such a curcuit but im sure one could be done that would use ac to both power and control the frequencies.

on a side note i played around with the earth batteries again and got a .8v at 3mah current but alas it was not enough for my basic JT. the voltage is fine but the amps just didnt come fast enough. it was fun to charge some caps off the earth tho.

wasnt there a curcuit that was posted to run off 3mah?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 18, 2009, 11:01:46 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on May 18, 2009, 10:41:55 PM
...

on a side note i played around with the earth batteries again and got a .8v at 3mah current but alas it was not enough for my basic JT. the voltage is fine but the amps just didnt come fast enough. it was fun to charge some caps off the earth tho.

wasnt there a curcuit that was posted to run off 3mah?

First thanks to you and theNOP for trying to answer this. I was just looking for it. Of course of all the things I kept open, this one I closed, so I will have to defer til later for the quote, which should have been there.

About the EB.

Put a cap in parallel with the battery leads.
If it is big enough you will get it to work. (I have not set it up for myself, so I should be less definitive...)
The thing is the larger the cap, the longer it will take to charge up and when the jt withdraws the power, it will be left empty. If it is too small, of course it won't do it.
So, I would say keep going up til it lights and stays lit.
Bill used a 1Farad supercap on his EB to light a plain led last year. So, that should be the best place to start. Go smaller if it cuts out to recharge, I think.

But remember the cap is attached to both battery leads for this to work.

jeanna
=======
OK this is too cool.
Maybe this is well known and a waste of everyone's time. I have never actually read the reference that explained the derivation of the term tank circuit.

I think I found it
I call it
"Why it is called a tank circuit..."
so, here it is in Tesla's words:

"by comparing the electrical
process with its mechanical analogue. The process may be illus-
trated in this manner. Imagine a tank with a wide opening at
the bottom, which is kept closed by spring pressure, but so that
it snaps off suddenly when the liquid in the tank has reached a
certain height. Let the fluid be supplied to the tank by means
of a pipe feeding at a certain rate. When the critical height of
the liquid is reached, the spring gives way and the bottom of the
tank drops out. Instantly the liquid falls through the wide open-
ing, and the spring, reasserting itself, closes the bottom again.
The tank is now filled, and after a certain time interval the same
process is repeated. It is clear, that if the pipe feeds the fluid
quicker than the bottom outlet is capable of letting it pass
through, the bottom will remain off. and the tank will still overflow.
If the rates of supply are exactly equal, then the bottom lid will
remain partially open and no vibration of the same" and of the
liquid column will generally occur, though it might, if started by
some means.
But if the inlet pipe does not feed the fluid fast
enough for the outlet, then there will be always vibration.
Again, in such case, each time the bottom flaps up or down, the
spring and the liquid column, if the pliability of the spring and
the inertia of the moving parts are properly chosen, will perform
independent vibrations. In this analogue the fluid may be lik-
ened to electricity or electrical energy, the tank to the condenser,
the spring to the dielectric, and the pipe to the conductor through
which electricity is supplied to the condenser. To make this
analogy quite complete it is necessary to make the assumption,
that the bottom, each time it gives way, is knocked violently
against a non-elastic stop, this impact involving some loss of en-
ergy ; and that, besides, some dissipation of energy results due to
frictional losses. In the preceding analogue the liquid is sup-
posed to be under a steady pressure. If the presence of the fluid
be assumed to vary rhythmically, this may be taken as corres-
ponding to the case of an alternating current. The process is
then not quite as simple to consider, but the action is the same in
principle. It is desirable, in order to maintain the vibration
economically, to reduce the impact and frictional losses
as much as possible."
===

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on May 18, 2009, 11:42:25 PM

I was skimming recent posts when I cam across the bit about mercury and CFL's. If you turn one one, for instance, a twist bulb, and then use a camera lens as a sort of projector, you can see the mercury in the tube, ..very little of it is actually a vapor, as you can see from this picture, there is a bead in the tube, ..gravity seems to be having more effect on the metal that the HV field.

This is a picture taken of light passing through the detachable camera lens. It creates a projection onto a piece of paper of itself.

This first image is of the cfl in the vertical position hanging down, and the second is with the bulb tilted to one side. Enjoy the ghostly images.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 18, 2009, 11:49:48 PM

@ Jeanna:

Tesla's description of the tank circuit sounds EXACTLY like what I am doing with supercaps and the EB! I never really thought of it that way but, I believe this is correct. Thank you for posting this. I believe my knowledge just went up a notch.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 18, 2009, 11:51:31 PM

Has anyone got or seen that acrylic stuff that lights up on the edges or Light-Scattering Fibre Materials . The reason is my Bro has some of these round solar landscape light that have one bright white led in the middle and the thing has three large clear plastic or Lucite rings and the whole thing lights up . It amplifies the light id say by 1000 times . I cant find them any where on the net ??? They were bought at a close out at lowes :( I think someone jumped on that technology and now proprietary technology . I have seen some of the edge lit material in malls and disply cases and such . there are a few on ebay but 100's of dollars .
this is somthing similar here . they got what i was talking about . its like crystal . heck just one bright led in this can make a nice lamp or light up walls .. just an idea i will be searching for some c;ear acrylic resin to play with .. http://www.elumanation.com/eLume_LED_NeonFlex.html
gadget ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 18, 2009, 11:59:40 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on May 18, 2009, 11:42:25 PM
I was skimming recent posts when I cam across the bit about mercury and CFL's. If you turn one one, for instance, a twist bulb, and then use a camera lens as a sort of projector, you can see the mercury in the tube, ..very little of it is actually a vapor, as you can see from this picture, there is a bead in the tube, ..gravity seems to be having more effect on the metal that the HV field.

This is a picture taken of light passing through the detachable camera lens. It creates a projection onto a piece of paper of itself.

This first image is of the cfl in the vertical position hanging down, and the second is with the bulb tilted to one side. Enjoy the ghostly images.

Very nice photos of the mercury bead there. I "knew" they had mercury but not like this. Very good info. Thank you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 19, 2009, 12:07:30 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on May 18, 2009, 11:42:25 PM
I was skimming recent posts when I cam across the bit about mercury and CFL's. If you turn one one, for instance, a twist bulb, and then use a camera lens as a sort of projector, you can see the mercury in the tube, ..very little of it is actually a vapor, as you can see from this picture, there is a bead in the tube, ..gravity seems to be having more effect on the metal that the HV field.

This is a picture taken of light passing through the detachable camera lens. It creates a projection onto a piece of paper of itself.

This first image is of the cfl in the vertical position hanging down, and the second is with the bulb tilted to one side. Enjoy the ghostly images.

Thanks Jarado . I used to bust old Floro tube when i was a kid and collect the mercury and play with it :) As i remember there was a lot of mercury in them as i had collected about an 1/4 inch in a vicks jar . Yea i was into everything back then , and still am !

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: oscar on May 19, 2009, 12:28:38 AM

Quote from: jeanna on May 18, 2009, 09:39:33 PM
.... Tesla lectures ....

He says that it is not so much the frequency itself (in a certain application) but the rate of change of the frequency that makes the big difference - or big something.
.........
Still not sure what he meant.
Does anybody know?

Hi jeanna,

thanks to you and the other experimenters in the tread for your work.

No, I don't know (= am not sure) what Tesla means if he makes a distinction between "rate of change" and "frequency".

But I think that by "rate of change" he means the "speed of the change".

An example: the change between day and night repeats its cycle every 24 hours.
I would say that is a good comparison for a frequency.

But note that the "rate of change" is highest/fastest at dusk and dawn, since this is when the change from darkness to light actually happens.

So in spite of a slow frequency of a certain process, the "rate of change" can be quite high, if the change as such happens in a short timespan.
I sum it up:
"High (=quick) rate of change" for our purpose would consist in a "disruptive charge or discharge" which one could also call an impulsive change (as opposed to a gradual change for which the best example is a sine wave).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 19, 2009, 12:36:10 AM

this is an idea of mine that uses a new type of ceramic light tile . It Glows Bright Blue for 10-40 hours after it is exposed to light for 30 minutes. I bought a hundred of these glass ceramic tiles from turkey called Curtisium and have them in every cfl and windowsill and even a few on the patio as walk lights . I might sell them if there is an interest ..the blur is cause i forgot to turn the stabilizer on in My camera .
. They all produce a Nice bright Blue light after you turn off the lights :) Makes it easy to see in the bathroom or bedroom lab .... . To My Knowledge they are not available now unless you buy 800 dollars worth .
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 19, 2009, 01:22:19 AM

@ adgetmall

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 19, 2009, 12:36:10 AM
this is an idea of mine that uses a new type of ceramic light tile . It Glows Bright Blue for 10-40 hours after it is exposed to light for 30 minutes. I bought a hundred of these glass ceramic tiles from turkey called Curtisium and have them in every cfl and windowsill and even a few on the patio as walk lights . I might sell them if there is an interest ..the blur is cause i forgot to turn the stabilizer on in My camera .
. They all produce a Nice bright Blue light after you turn off the lights :) Makes it easy to see in the bathroom or bedroom lab .... . To My Knowledge they are not available now unless you buy 800 dollars worth .
Gadget

Great info. Thanks. One inch square tiles are being sold for 50 cents each at this web site.

http://www.batterystation.com/curtisium.htm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 19, 2009, 01:30:36 AM

Gadget and Xee2:

Thanks for bringing these to my attention. I HAVE to get some of these. The website posted said....1 minute exposure to light gives up to 40 hours of light? This sounds way more efficient than solar! Maybe not all that bright 20 hours later but still. Imagine a room tiled with these buggers. Flip on a light for 1 minute, or open the blinds for the sun...and poof.....all the light you need for the next 20-40 hours. Holy crap! I need these. Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 19, 2009, 01:37:35 AM

Gadget:

I just had an idea! (maybe) Get a bunch of these and superglue a small magnet on the back. Folks that go camping can stick a shitload of them on the car roof while traveling to the campsite. Leave them on the roof until dark and then, have all the light they need the rest of the evening! I imagine like 30 of these in a tent would be some pretty good light.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 19, 2009, 01:45:02 AM

Quote from: xee2 on May 19, 2009, 01:22:19 AM
@ adgetmall

Great info. Thanks. One inch square tiles are being sold for 50 cents each at this web site.

http://www.batterystation.com/curtisium.htm

Hi . O well i guess i wont sell em then ;) Thanks for the source though ! They work fantastic and are so bright . they also break just like Glass tile if you happen to drop it on the sidewalk . ALSO THE JT with UV leds will MAKE THESE THINGS SHINE EVEN BRIGHTER .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 19, 2009, 02:54:33 AM

It lights. But it is very dim.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 19, 2009, 03:15:18 AM

@all
I made a TinyCad drawing of my part of Hazens1 toroid circuit.

As a lot of people don't have High Voltage diodes in their kitt, another way to go around this problem is to make up a string of diode's in a series array configuration.
As each diode has a voltage drop of .7v, I don't see this as a big problem when anyone has been able to push out 600volts or more.

In the bottom circuit I decided to add a capacitor in parallel with each diode.
I think this should bump up the grunt output a bit.
Since I havent made this (as I don't have enough HV ceramics), I therefore cannot say if it will work or not, but I will rectify the pasts prob on the weekend.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 19, 2009, 03:50:31 AM

@TheNOP,
Wasnt that a tricky question I set before the king ::)

Quote from: TheNOP on May 18, 2009, 06:41:46 PM
i just had a flash and think i understand what you really meant.

to understand what is happening, you need to know how those bulbs are working.
basicly: An electric current passes through a filament, heating it to a point is produce light.

the key factors of the quantity of light are :
- the filament's total surface area.
- how bright it glow(the resistance control the watts that make it glow).

assuming a 240volts bulb is made from the same materials as a 120volts bulb.
the only thing that can make a difference are the 2 things above.
in order to allow the same wattage at 240 and 120 volts, you need a filament of different resistance for each one.
the 240volts filament will be thinner and longer.
the 120volts that will be thicker and shorter.
you should end up with about the same surface area for both,
and with same wattage, you will get the same amount of light.
one is using more current, yes.
but, with the same materials and different resistance, they use the same quantity of energy to make the same quantity of light.

you can try to connect a 120volts bulb to a 12volts 600 amps car battery, you won't be able to make the required amps to flow through the filament to reach 100 watts because of its resistance.

I carn't test this as I don't have a 120v light bulb, and if I shuved 240 volts threw it, I'm shore it would exceed its lightoutput.
I know the bulb filaments in our bulbs shore get a move on if the bulb is bumped. (bounce around).

There is actually no concrete answer for this question as there are other 100 wattage light bulbs, eg car headlights, hand held spotlights, there is Halogen, tungston, even other exotic materials eg Lo and Hi Pressure sodium.

You did well Nop to answer it.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 19, 2009, 04:47:57 AM

@Jeanna,
The tank circuit, Teslas discription

Quote from: jeanna on May 18, 2009, 11:01:46 PM

=======
OK this is too cool.
Maybe this is well known and a waste of everyone's time. I have never actually read the reference that explained the derivation of the term tank circuit.

I think I found it
I call it
"Why it is called a tank circuit..."
so, here it is in Tesla's words:

"by comparing the electrical
process with its mechanical analogue. The process may be illus-
trated in this manner. Imagine a tank with a wide opening at
the bottom, which is kept closed by spring pressure, but so that
it snaps off suddenly when the liquid in the tank has reached a
certain height. Let the fluid be supplied to the tank by means
of a pipe feeding at a certain rate. When the critical height of
the liquid is reached, the spring gives way and the bottom of the
tank drops out. Instantly the liquid falls through the wide open-
ing, and the spring, reasserting itself, closes the bottom again.

===

This similar to my understanding of the way the JT operation.

Just swap the water tank for a toroid, and the water in the tank for a magnetic field.
The pipe filling the tank, change to the Bifiler windings, the valve under the tank opening and closing becomes the transistor.
The flow of the magnetic field collapses, it hits bottom, the energy when it collapses can be picked up/harnised, by any coil wrapped around the toroid.

There it is, how Teslas discribes the working of his electrical system.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 19, 2009, 06:41:08 AM

Quote from: oscar on May 19, 2009, 12:28:38 AM
But I think that by "rate of change" he means the "speed of the change".

An example: the change between day and night repeats its cycle every 24 hours.
I would say that is a good comparison for a frequency.

But note that the "rate of change" is highest/fastest at dusk and dawn, since this is when the change from darkness to light actually happens.

So in spite of a slow frequency of a certain process, the "rate of change" can be quite high, if the change as such happens in a short timespan.
I sum it up:
"High (=quick) rate of change" for our purpose would consist in a "disruptive charge or discharge" which one could also call an impulsive change (as opposed to a gradual change for which the best example is a sine wave).

thanks oscar
you are right.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 19, 2009, 09:19:44 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 19, 2009, 01:37:35 AM
Gadget:

I just had an idea! (maybe) Get a bunch of these and superglue a small magnet on the back. Folks that go camping can stick a shitload of them on the car roof while traveling to the campsite. Leave them on the roof until dark and then, have all the light they need the rest of the evening! I imagine like 30 of these in a tent would be some pretty good light.

Bill

ACTUALLY TWO WILL LIGHT A 10 X 15 ROOM . they COME IN GREEN and dark blue ALSO . i JUST ORDERED SOME MORE IN CASE THEY ARE NOT AVAILABLE . I GOT THESE FROM A GROUP BUY FROM ONE OF THE CANDLE FORUMS FOR A BUCK EACH . I HAVE SOLD THESE TO NEIGHBORS FOR 5 EACH AND THEY LOVE THEM AS I DO . VERY BRIGHT AND LAST LONGER THAN ANY GLOW PAINT OR MATERIAL I HAVE EVER SEEN . . THEY HAD TO GET A CRATE OF THEM .THAT WAS YEARS AGO . I CARRY ONE IN MY POCKET ALL THE TIME .. HERE IS THE MANUFACTURE http://www.curtisium.com/

gadget ,

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 19, 2009, 10:13:13 AM

Quote from: oscar on May 19, 2009, 12:28:38 AM

So in spite of a slow frequency of a certain process, the "rate of change" can be quite high, if the change as such happens in a short timespan.
I sum it up:
"High (=quick) rate of change" for our purpose would consist in a "disruptive charge or discharge" which one could also call an impulsive change (as opposed to a gradual change for which the best example is a sine wave).

Hi oscar,
Thanks for your thoughts and welcome to this thread. If you are intending to experiment... all the better!

In fact, it was through disruptive discharges = sparks, that Tesla created the pulse.

So, the frequency of the pulses would be how many can fit into a second as we have been using the word.

The rate of the change of the frequency, if I understand what you are saying, would be how fast the pulse goes from zero on the Y axis to its highest point. So, a slow moving 60 hz pure sinewave (according to the man), is not as useful as a fast spark would be.

It could be. I am still not sure, however the skinny spikes do have a strength of a sort that the smooth ones do not have.

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Thaelin on May 19, 2009, 10:52:32 AM

To further the doubler/tripler circuit, I found this on the web. States that it will fail at around ten sections due to losses. Dont think it should go past 3 really. Watch out for the zaps if you do.

thaelin

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 19, 2009, 12:17:19 PM

Quote from: Thaelin on May 19, 2009, 10:52:32 AM
To further the doubler/tripler circuit, I found this on the web. States that it will fail at around ten sections due to losses. Dont think it should go past 3 really. Watch out for the zaps if you do.

thaelin

The grounds seem not needed! Do you know what benifit they may have?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 19, 2009, 12:44:10 PM

Hi stprue,

I cannot answer for sure about why, but in many examples Tesla says that the ground can be the circuit as in dc, or your hand, or the wall or the physical ground.
I was playing with the 2 tier one day and I took out the wire that was on the second side of the light, and the light stayed lit. There was no 'complete' circuit, just the one wire. It wasn't radiant either, because it did need the one wire; but no ground.
It appears to be an ac thing.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 19, 2009, 01:01:19 PM

Tesla wanted to go into the millions of cycles. It occurred to him that this vibratory capability was to be found in the capacitor. With a capacitor circuit, the spark-gap oscillator, he did indeed achieve the higher frequencies, and he did so by nonmechanical means. The circuit was promising enough for him to patent it as "A Method of and Apparatus for Electrical Conversion and Distribution," for Tesla saw in it the possibility of a whole new system of electric lighting by means of high frequencies. Though it was quickly succeeded by the tesla coil and is not numbered among the more famous of the lost inventions, the spark-gap oscillator is pivotal for Tesla as the invention that launched him into his career in high frequencies. how it works
The capacitor There are only a few basic building blocks of electrical circuitry. The capacitor is one of them. Tesla didn't invent it, it had been around for some time, arguably for millennia, but he did improve upon it in three of his patents. Also called condenser, the common capacitor is just a sandwich of conductive and nonconductive layers that serves the purpose of storing electrical charge. The simplest capacitor has just two conductive sheets separated by a single sheet of insulation. In the capacitor shown, the conductive elements are two metal plates. The insulation between them is oil. In the official vocabulary, the plates are indeed called "plates" and the insulative layer (oil, glass, mica, or whatever) is called the "dielectric." Connect the two terminals of a capacitor into a circuit where there is plus-minus electrical potential, and charge builds on the plates, positive on one, negative on the other. Let this charge build for a while, then connect the two plates through some resistance, a coil, say, and the capacitor discharges. Very suddenly. Tesla said that "the explosion of dynamite is only the breath of a consumptive compared with its discharge." He went on to say that the capacitor is "the means of producing the strongest current, the highest electrical pressure, the greatest commotion in the medium." The capacitor's discharge is not necessarily a single event. If it discharges into a suitable resistance, there is a rush of current outward, then back again, as if it were bouncing off the resistance, then out, and back and so forth until it peters out. The discharge is oscillatory, a vibration. The vibration can be sustained by recharging the capacitor at appropriate intervals. When Tesla talks of the capacitor's discharge causing "commotion in the medium," he means a vibration or mix of vibrations. The character of this vibration is determined in part by the capacity of the capacitor, that is, how much charge it will hold. This is a function of it size, the distance between plates, and the composition of the dielectric. Upon discharge there would be, typically, a fundamental vibration, some harmonics, and perhaps other commotion, maybe musical, maybe not. Additional circuitry can tame the vibration to a "pure" tone.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 19, 2009, 01:22:46 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 19, 2009, 12:44:10 PM
Hi stprue,

I cannot answer for sure about why, but in many examples Tesla says that the ground can be the circuit as in dc, or your hand, or the wall or the physical ground.
I was playing with the 2 tier one day and I took out the wire that was on the second side of the light, and the light stayed lit. There was no 'complete' circuit, just the one wire. It wasn't radiant either, because it did need the one wire; but no ground.
It appears to be an ac thing.

jeanna

I think I understand. I think followingincorporating Tesla tech w/JT/EB ect is our next logical step.

P.S. How's the big coil coming along?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 19, 2009, 01:29:10 PM

." The capacitor's discharge is not necessarily a single event. If it discharges into a suitable resistance, there is a rush of current outward, then back again, as if it were bouncing off the resistance, then out, and back and so forth until it peters out.

Do you think we could tap desired amps from inbetween the process?

Very interesting stuff!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 19, 2009, 01:37:05 PM

stprue:

Toss supercaps into the mix and it gets even better.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 19, 2009, 02:02:56 PM

Yeah watch out! blast the garage doors...

I found the piece about the rate of change of the frequency being so important, and it seems he was indeed referring to the shape of the rise. It seems that with his spark gap which he had to use because he didn't invent the transistor :D , the spark would begin before the spark would actually go bang, and there was a lot of loss in this.

Lucky for us, we have the transistor. We have the constant drain of the base but given that this is constant, the closing and opening of the switch gives US the ideal shape of the wave. Many more effects at less amperage are evidently available with this sharp shape. And this is what he was referring to when he called it rate of change of the frequency. We already have it with the transistor. Yeay!

We will be able to use the cap/condenser where he used it after the oscillations were already set going.

He used it in these 2 places. One to start the oscillations, the other to change the frequency or voltage later for whatever effects he wanted.

His circuits were all parallel, with or without a ground.

They seem to be set up between the "arms" of the secondary and each parallel side circuit could have its own different thing going on. Still later, he would or could transform the whole business to a higher or lower voltage and continue.

When I first saw the drawing of this I thought it was just a composite of all the kinds of circuits that this alternator could do, but in fact, he is showing that you can do all of them at once. (and from a dc generator or an ac alternator)

Clearly this circuit is the precursor to what runs our plugs. Our houses are wired in parallel and at any plug we can have transformers to take the low frequency harmonic waves to something different but useful for a specific appliance.

Wow, I'm sorry for all the words, but this is cool.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 19, 2009, 02:15:25 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 19, 2009, 01:37:05 PM
stprue:

Toss supercaps into the mix and it gets even better.

Bill

Yes I have started with that already. If you noticed in the pics a few pages back of my Hazen1 coil after I hooked up a 2.5v @10f supercap my volts shot up quite a bit! Now I just need the EB. I could order one from gadgetmall but I dont know enough about the NS setup which seems better! What do you think?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 19, 2009, 02:22:38 PM

NICE

My latest goldmine supply just came in.

15 ferrites
2 Power Inductors
UV leds
Inverter transformer
3 Solars
4-265k leds
inductor
more transistors
Another breadboard
Mylar caps

Oh yeah and that tiny CCFL lamp Driver High Voltage Inverter

This will keep me busy for a while 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 19, 2009, 02:44:03 PM

Quote from: stprue on May 19, 2009, 02:15:25 PM
Yes I have started with that already. If you noticed in the pics a few pages back of my Hazen1 coil after I hooked up a 2.5v @10f supercap my volts shot up quite a bit! Now I just need the EB. I could order one from gadgetmall but I dont know enough about the NS setup which seems better! What do you think?

I forgot to mention that I have 5 of these but when I put 2-5 additional caps the voltage gets lower, not by much but it does. Have you experienced this problem or do you know whay this happens?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 19, 2009, 02:50:37 PM

Quote from: stprue on May 19, 2009, 02:44:03 PM
I forgot to mention that I have 5 of these but when I put 2-5 additional caps the voltage gets lower, not by much but it does. Have you experienced this problem or do you know whay this happens?

I am not sure where you mean, but I have definitely seen it on the scope. You put the cap in and all the spikes - well almost all- get turned into nice curves and the thing is all smoothed out. I think this is why they help in some applications, but the voltage goes way way down.

I bet it has to do with the size and its relation to the rest.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 19, 2009, 03:14:06 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 19, 2009, 02:50:37 PM
I am not sure where you mean, but I have definitely seen it on the scope. You put the cap in and all the spikes - well almost all- get turned into nice curves and the thing is all smoothed out. I think this is why they help in some applications, but the voltage goes way way down.

I bet it has to do with the size and its relation to the rest.

jeanna

That sounds like what is happening to me. I wish I had a scope, I am really a visual learner.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 19, 2009, 03:17:20 PM

@ Jeanna

Have you scrolled through the Tesla patent topic on the forum. If not you should take a look at it his coil set up really reminds me of a JT. I wanted to make one of these out of one of the large toroids I have. Let me know what you think?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 19, 2009, 04:28:27 PM

i have not had much time to rewind a toroid but tesla used the "pancake bifiliar" coil in everything he did. he wound his motors transformers and everything in that fassion. if it was a 3d coil then just stack them on top of each other and you get the idea, a particular magnetic coil i want to test is a bifiliar coil where the windings are next to each other wound at the same time going down the spool then with no additional windings bring the wire back down to the bottom and wind it again.this causes the first wire to pulse from the back of the coil to the front over and over then move to the second wire and do the same. with electricity however this would happen simultaneously in the entire wire.

MIT lectures on youtube would tell you a single electron from every atom down the wire moves together as if they are chained. NOT from one bouncin into the other. its simple, the entire wire moves together or not at all. so a reaction in the wire happens at the same time through the entire course of that wire meaning all coils fire off at the same time creating a magnetic field in the same direction! works much better than the lazy way of winding a coil back and forth between the ends of the roll as is done today.

if one is to play with electricity one should really know tesla. MIT has good lectures on youtube too.

the capacitor increasing frequency in any curcuit was way back in the day. also does anyone know about "eddy currents" ? have you ever considered on a DC generator bridging a cap accross the generators output terminals? you should, it will greatly increase efficiency. why? eddy currents is a term to define electrical resistance. EVERYTHING that controls a current is creating resistance. the cap is the one thing that will not create a resistance (well it does but no more than copper wire itself really) this means that the torque needed to drive the generator is reduced because friction is reduced.

for those that may think im all theories, try again :) ive posted a couple curcuits or things i "planned to try" before i did but i also notated that. what i say is true i have proven to be true through experiments.

its all about the eddies

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 19, 2009, 05:06:57 PM

Quote from: stprue on May 19, 2009, 03:17:20 PM
@ Jeanna

Have you scrolled through the Tesla patent topic on the forum. If not you should take a look at it his coil set up really reminds me of a JT. I wanted to make one of these out of one of the large toroids I have. Let me know what you think?

Yes, it does. the stubblefield generator is IMO closer, though.
But it doesn't matter too much because we are on to it as far as I am concerned.
The reason I keep reading this Tesla book is
1- I haven't before.
2- I am thinking something he will say will help me to get my mind wrapped around what to do next. He spends a lot of time with things like the sparks and lighting that we do not need to, but there is still a lot in the principles that get through, to me at least.

I think we are all different and we all have personal reasons to be in this thread and so I think you should go for it. If you want to try something... do it! Please report what does not work as well as what does. That really helps a lot.

==

I just finished winding 240 turns of 24 awg wire on the biggo.
I got 131V at 17KHz.
This is pretty low, but it does have a lot of material, and I am not sure of the flux rating, so... there it is. It is probably medium flux like the goldmine medium.

On the primary,
I wound
3T,5T and got 127Vthen
3T,4T and it is 131V. But with
2T,5T it is 60V
(I edited that last one it is 2T,5T)

I will next try splitting it in the MKx2 fashion.

The wave is really smooooth like out of the wall. I should see if I can light my led string, though answers.com pointed out that peak to peak the volts in the wall is 170V to give us the rms of 110-120v.

I will also lower the resistance which is now at 923ohms. The frequency will go lower, but that is probably OK as long as it doesn't go below 60! :)

OK I'm done for now,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on May 19, 2009, 06:24:39 PM

Found a local supplier for toroids and other good stuff. Located 5 miles from my house ;D

I picked up some High Flux, Low Perm 1.3 inchers today...

http://www.surplussales.com/Inductors/FerToro/FerToro-3.html (http://www.surplussales.com/Inductors/FerToro/FerToro-3.html)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 19, 2009, 06:46:44 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 19, 2009, 10:13:13 AM
The rate of the change of the frequency, if I understand what you are saying, would be how fast the pulse goes from zero on the Y axis to its highest point.

yes

Quote from: jeanna on May 19, 2009, 10:13:13 AM
So, a slow moving 60 hz pure sinewave (according to the man), is not as useful as a fast spark would be.

It could be. I am still not sure, however the skinny spikes do have a strength of a sort that the smooth ones do not have.

a good example is induction.

take a magnet and move it over a wire at 90 degrees.

that movement can be view as 2 componants, independant of each other.
-the number of time per second that you cross the wire.(frequency)
-the speed at whitch you cross the wire.(Tesla called it rate in your book)

from my experience.
the faster you cross the wire, the more current is induce.
the frequency can be as low as you want, once per minute if you like, it will not make a difference to the above.

the strenght of the magnet and the speed of the mag field changes are key factors in inducing the current.
the frequency is the repetition of that induction.

i know caps are not inductors, but believe me, this example apply to both.
the charge/discharge cycles of a cap is the frequency.
the faster a cap discharge the more current it give you.(time relative)

Quote from: Artic_Knight on May 19, 2009, 01:01:19 PM
The capacitor's discharge is not necessarily a single event. If it discharges into a suitable resistance, there is a rush of current outward, then back again, as if it were bouncing off the resistance, then out, and back and so forth until it peters out. The discharge is oscillatory, a vibration. The vibration can be sustained by recharging the capacitor at appropriate intervals. When Tesla talks of the capacitor's discharge causing "commotion in the medium," he means a vibration or mix of vibrations. The character of this vibration is determined in part by the capacity of the capacitor, that is, how much charge it will hold. This is a function of it size, the distance between plates, and the composition of the dielectric. Upon discharge there would be, typically, a fundamental vibration, some harmonics, and perhaps other commotion, maybe musical, maybe not. Additional circuitry can tame the vibration to a "pure" tone.

when i am looking at various capacitor charge/discharge curve pictures, i see no such vibrations.

you are forgetting the spark gap.
it take both, the spark gap and a capacitor to create the oscillations.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 19, 2009, 07:21:42 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on May 19, 2009, 04:28:27 PM
the capacitor increasing frequency in any curcuit was way back in the day.

???
can you give an example of what you are saying ?
said this way, it is not what i learned or experienced
a diode bridge is a frequency doubler.
else then RC/LC/RLC circuit, i can see how.
RC/LC/RLC circuits does not increase the frequency they create one.

Quote from: Artic_Knight on May 19, 2009, 04:28:27 PM
also does anyone know about "eddy currents" ? have you ever considered on a DC generator bridging a cap accross the generators output terminals? you should, it will greatly increase efficiency. why? eddy currents is a term to define electrical resistance. EVERYTHING that controls a current is creating resistance. the cap is the one thing that will not create a resistance (well it does but no more than copper wire itself really) this means that the torque needed to drive the generator is reduced because friction is reduced.

i suggest you read more about eddy currents.
a cap across the output terminals of a DC generator does not have anything to do with eddy currents.
eddy currents are not at the output, it is a losses in motors/generators structure, like in the core of transformers.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 19, 2009, 07:38:20 PM

I have found another transistor that works in my circuits - 2N3772. It is not a direct replacement for the 2N3055 so circuits will not have same component values. 2N3055 seems to work better so far.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 19, 2009, 07:47:14 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on May 19, 2009, 06:46:44 PM

when i am looking at various capacitor charge/discharge curve pictures, i see no such vibrations.

you are forgetting the spark gap.
it take both, the spark gap and a capacitor to create the oscillations.

funny i thought the spark gap WAS a resistance? the equivalent in todays day as a Diode. forwards or backwards the diode has a point of threashold where it breaks down and allows the current to pass same as spark gap and this can be read as a resistance which falls under teslas "suitable resistance"

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 19, 2009, 07:48:59 PM

I must say, xee,
That is a nice bright light for 120mA.

I have been forgetting to ask you about the start up voltage requirement on the 2N3055 and the other high voltage transistors. How is it you are able to even turn on these transistors with 1.34 volts? I thought the start up voltage on these was 1.5V?

Nice job again.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 19, 2009, 07:52:24 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on May 19, 2009, 07:21:42 PM
i suggest you read more about eddy currents.
a cap across the output terminals of a DC generator does not have anything to do with eddy currents.
eddy currents are not at the output, it is a losses in motors/generators structure, like in the core of transformers.

i suggest you try it! drop a magnet down a copper pipe. hey it dropps REALLY slow. drop it down a copper pipe that allows the electricity to flow hey it dropps at a normal rate.

eddy currents in generators is from the resistance of the copper passing the magnetism only because there is resistance in electrical flow. now if there is a Iron Core to this coil then that adds a whole different Variable. one which we can guess the answer. were stuck with the resistance.

in a strait copper coil inside a magnetic field all eddy current resistance can be eliminated and only ball bearing resistance remains (or other friction) i have proven this to myself, if you dont believe me then try it!

its fun! try it!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 19, 2009, 07:55:53 PM

Quote from: stprue on May 19, 2009, 02:44:03 PM
I forgot to mention that I have 5 of these but when I put 2-5 additional caps the voltage gets lower, not by much but it does. Have you experienced this problem or do you know whay this happens?

I have read in several places that you can't put more than 3 supercaps in series. They gave a really good explanation of why but, I can't remember what it was.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 19, 2009, 08:06:13 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on May 19, 2009, 07:48:59 PM
I must say, xee,
That is a nice bright light for 120mA.

I have been forgetting to ask you about the start up voltage requirement on the 2N3055 and the other high voltage transistors. How is it you are able to even turn on these transistors with 1.34 volts? I thought the start up voltage on these was 1.5V?

Nice job again.

jeanna

Almost all silicon transistors turn on at 0.5 to 0.7 volts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 19, 2009, 08:11:31 PM

Quote from: stprue on May 19, 2009, 02:15:25 PM
Yes I have started with that already. If you noticed in the pics a few pages back of my Hazen1 coil after I hooked up a 2.5v @10f supercap my volts shot up quite a bit! Now I just need the EB. I could order one from gadgetmall but I dont know enough about the NS setup which seems better! What do you think?

By NS set-up you mean Nathan Stubblefield (as opposed to North South) those are much harder to make but do have a higher output. Also, theoretically at least, they can be placed in series or parallel if you make several of them.

I chose the electrode method way back in our early EB days, then I went to the coils. Now, I am back to the earlier method with better material on the south side.

It is up to you but with a little alignment tweaks you get the electrode model up and working in no time. I am not all that familiar with what Gadget is offering with his EB kit but I will say it is a pain to locate a supplier that will sell you 1 of anything be it carbon rods or magnesium.
I believe he is selling good sized rods of each material and I know he has tested this set-up. If you need any help on setting it up, just let me know. Gadget may have instructions for all I know.

Either way you go, it is fun to go outside and see lights running from the ground. ***EDIT*** I just checked Gadget's site and he is only asking $55.00 for the two electrodes for the EB. That is a very decent price if you ask me. My carbon rod was like $25.00 plus shipping and my magnesium (large block) was $46.00.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 19, 2009, 08:12:10 PM

The TIP31C also works in my circuits, but is also not a direct replacement for the 2N3055. It seems to have about the same performance as the 2N3055 but seems to oscillate at a higher frequency. The 2N3772 would not light the tube at all in this circuit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 19, 2009, 08:19:06 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on May 19, 2009, 04:28:27 PM
i have not had much time to rewind a toroid but tesla used the "pancake bifiliar" coil in everything he did. he wound his motors transformers and everything in that fassion. if it was a 3d coil then just stack them on top of each other and you get the idea, a particular magnetic coil i want to test is a bifiliar coil where the windings are next to each other wound at the same time going down the spool then with no additional windings bring the wire back down to the bottom and wind it again.this causes the first wire to pulse from the back of the coil to the front over and over then move to the second wire and do the same. with electricity however this would happen simultaneously in the entire wire.

MIT lectures on youtube would tell you a single electron from every atom down the wire moves together as if they are chained. NOT from one bouncin into the other. its simple, the entire wire moves together or not at all. so a reaction in the wire happens at the same time through the entire course of that wire meaning all coils fire off at the same time creating a magnetic field in the same direction! works much better than the lazy way of winding a coil back and forth between the ends of the roll as is done today.

if one is to play with electricity one should really know tesla. MIT has good lectures on youtube too.

the capacitor increasing frequency in any curcuit was way back in the day. also does anyone know about "eddy currents" ? have you ever considered on a DC generator bridging a cap accross the generators output terminals? you should, it will greatly increase efficiency. why? eddy currents is a term to define electrical resistance. EVERYTHING that controls a current is creating resistance. the cap is the one thing that will not create a resistance (well it does but no more than copper wire itself really) this means that the torque needed to drive the generator is reduced because friction is reduced.

for those that may think im all theories, try again :) ive posted a couple curcuits or things i "planned to try" before i did but i also notated that. what i say is true i have proven to be true through experiments.

its all about the eddies

Well there's no question that you know far more then myself. In fact I have taught myself over the past 8 months what little I know now. I'm proud of that!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 19, 2009, 08:23:19 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 19, 2009, 05:06:57 PM
Yes, it does. the stubblefield generator is IMO closer, though.
But it doesn't matter too much because we are on to it as far as I am concerned.
The reason I keep reading this Tesla book is
1- I haven't before.
2- I am thinking something he will say will help me to get my mind wrapped around what to do next. He spends a lot of time with things like the sparks and lighting that we do not need to, but there is still a lot in the principles that get through, to me at least.

I think we are all different and we all have personal reasons to be in this thread and so I think you should go for it. If you want to try something... do it! Please report what does not work as well as what does. That really helps a lot.

==

I just finished winding 240 turns of 24 awg wire on the biggo.
I got 131V at 17KHz.
This is pretty low, but it does have a lot of material, and I am not sure of the flux rating, so... there it is. It is probably medium flux like the goldmine medium.

On the primary,
I wound
3T,5T and got 127Vthen
3T,4T and it is 131V. But with
2T,4T it is 60V

I will next try splitting it in the MKx2 fashion.

The wave is really smooooth like out of the wall. I should see if I can light my led string, though answers.com pointed out that peak to peak the volts in the wall is 170V to give us the rms of 110-120v.

I will also lower the resistance which is now at 923ohms. The frequency will go lower, but that is probably OK as long as it doesn't go below 60! :)

OK I'm done for now,

jeanna

I was thinking with mine I would like to devide it into 4 MK x2's and use thick wire do to the shear size of the "biggo". Thank you for reporting your results.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 19, 2009, 08:24:40 PM

Quote from: hazens1 on May 19, 2009, 06:24:39 PM
Found a local supplier for toroids and other good stuff. Located 5 miles from my house ;D

I picked up some High Flux, Low Perm 1.3 inchers today...

http://www.surplussales.com/Inductors/FerToro/FerToro-3.html (http://www.surplussales.com/Inductors/FerToro/FerToro-3.html)

Those look NICE. Now lets see what they can do! Good find Hazens1

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 19, 2009, 08:31:14 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 19, 2009, 08:11:31 PM
By NS set-up you mean Nathan Stubblefield (as opposed to North South) those are much harder to make but do have a higher output. Also, theoretically at least, they can be placed in series or parallel if you make several of them.

I chose the electrode method way back in our early EB days, then I went to the coils. Now, I am back to the earlier method with better material on the south side.

It is up to you but with a little alignment tweaks you get the electrode model up and working in no time. I am not all that familiar with what Gadget is offering with his EB kit but I will say it is a pain to locate a supplier that will sell you 1 of anything be it carbon rods or magnesium.
I believe he is selling good sized rods of each material and I know he has tested this set-up. If you need any help on setting it up, just let me know. Gadget may have instructions for all I know.

Either way you go, it is fun to go outside and see lights running from the ground. ***EDIT*** I just checked Gadget's site and he is only asking $55.00 for the two electrodes for the EB. That is a very decent price if you ask me. My carbon rod was like $25.00 plus shipping and my magnesium (large block) was $46.00.

Bill

Yes I meant Nathan Stubblefield but the simplicity of the electrode method sounds more novice friendly. Thanks for the info's!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 19, 2009, 08:33:22 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 19, 2009, 08:12:10 PM
The TIP31C also works in my circuits, but is also not a direct replacement for the 2N3055. It seems to have about the same performance as the 2N3055 but seems to oscillate at a higher frequency. The 2N3772 would not light the tube at all in this circuit.

I have both but as of now the tip31 works great on everything I have made. Maybe with a larger coil or a least more turns the 2N3055 will be better. I'll tell you one thing I haven't felt it heat up with anything I have done.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 19, 2009, 09:06:42 PM

Well folks I finally did something different.

I lit a neon today.
!!!!!

I should go back and try some of those other toroids with this new neon from radioshack. I went there the other day on the way outside chance that they got some in and they had these 2 in red enclosure all set up for a car or something. I stuck the 2 secondary leads through the plug holes and up went the neon. ---proof--- 110-125 volts it says on the little light.

Ah this is a good feeling. I know I lit the fluorotubes and the gazillion leds, but I wasn't able to show that I had a toroid that could reach the voltage that the scope declared. Now I have.

However...
That darn string of leds doesn't light. It works in the house socket, but still not with my secondary.

The newest totals are...
177volts 131 volts
10.2KHz 17 KHz
182 ohms 943 ohms
31.8mA 27.1mA

I tried a cap or 2 in the parallel to base resistor spot and the volts went down.
with a 104 cap
13.5KHz
145 volts
182 ohms

Also, I did split the primary in the MKx2 way for this and the volts might have gone up 2 volts.

This toroid is so large that it is heavy and a little hard to handle.
It seems to have enertia. Maybe not. Maybe just eddys, but it seems heavy and slow.

So, who knows the answer to this is the U value a high or low number when it is high flux?

thanks,

jeanna

all the details
3.38" toroid from allelectronics
2N3904 transistor
1kpot at 943 and at 182 ohms
3T,4T,240T MK1 style toroid
no caps
no diodes
1.26v NiMH AAA

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 19, 2009, 10:04:14 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on May 19, 2009, 07:47:14 PM
funny i thought the spark gap WAS a resistance? the equivalent in todays day as a Diode. forwards or backwards the diode has a point of threashold where it breaks down and allows the current to pass same as spark gap and this can be read as a resistance which falls under teslas "suitable resistance"

there is a voltage threshole(dielectric breakdown), but it does not replace a diode.
a spark gap as the same property and effects then lightning bolts.
study them and you will know how, why and what a spark gap do.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 19, 2009, 10:10:16 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on May 19, 2009, 09:06:42 PM
I lit a neon today.
!!!!!

Great! Try using your 2N3055 transistor. Also, the base resistor caps are to lower the current not to increase the voltage.

EDIT: If you increase your collector coil to 10 turns you should be able to light a fluorescent tube.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 19, 2009, 10:42:56 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on May 19, 2009, 07:52:24 PM
i suggest you try it! drop a magnet down a copper pipe. hey it dropps REALLY slow. drop it down a copper pipe that allows the electricity to flow hey it dropps at a normal rate.

Quotehave you ever considered on a DC generator bridging a cap accross the generators output terminals? you should,

explain to me how you can collect eddy current at the output terminals when that current is in the housing.

i am not saying that the effect you are writing about is not real, far from that.
i am simply saying that eddy currents is not the cause.

to really know what is happening, when there is a capacitor at the output, you should look at Lenz's law instead.

i am curious on exactly how you allow the electricity to flow in your pipe experiment.

Quote from: Artic_Knight on May 19, 2009, 07:52:24 PM
eddy currents in generators is from the resistance of the copper passing the magnetism only because there is resistance in electrical flow. now if there is a Iron Core to this coil then that adds a whole different Variable. one which we can guess the answer. were stuck with the resistance.

in a strait copper coil inside a magnetic field all eddy current resistance can be eliminated and only ball bearing resistance remains (or other friction) i have proven this to myself, if you dont believe me then try it!

eddy currents is a special case of induced currents, it circulate in a conductive material and loop on itself.

the rest is said to be an induced current.
same word "current" as if it was comming from a battery because that current is not different if it is induced by a mag field or by a battery.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 19, 2009, 10:53:43 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 19, 2009, 10:10:16 PM
If you increase your collector coil to 10 turns you should be able to light a fluorescent tube.

more turns on the collector, less to the base is working for me.
to some extent..., the number of turns for each coil depend on my core material.

the transformer ratio seem to be base on the base's coil rather then the collector's coil

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 20, 2009, 12:37:07 AM

Quote from: xee2 on May 19, 2009, 10:10:16 PM
@ jeanna

Great! Try using your 2N3055 transistor. Also, the base resistor caps are to lower the current not to increase the voltage.

Thank you.
I have been wondering what you were knowing about those base resistor caps.

Whatever their intent, they often put a damper on the voltage If I remember correctly.

QuoteEDIT: If you increase your collector coil to 10 turns you should be able to light a fluorescent tube.

OK I will give it a try.

There are more factors I think like the diode you use for testing voltage probably gives a boost. You also always use a cap at the light if I remember right.? I just received the 4007's with this biggo and I can add that, but I only have those fuji caps. I expect they will do fine?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 20, 2009, 01:22:05 AM

Quote from: xee2 on May 19, 2009, 08:06:13 PM
@ jeanna

Almost all silicon transistors turn on at 0.5 to 0.7 volts.

Hi xee,
I missed this reply to my question earlier. Thank you.
Here is part of what the data sheet info says on the 2N3055:

Quoteâ€¢ DC Current Gain â€" hFE = 20â€"70 @ IC = 4 Adc
â€¢ Collectorâ€"Emitter Saturation Voltage â€"
VCE(sat) = 1.1 Vdc (Max) @ IC = 4 Adc
â€¢ Excellent Safe Operating Area15 AMPERE
POWER TRANSISTORS

which is the reason I have not used it. It looks sturdy but not as useful, but you and others have certainly made it useful.

Thank you.

I will try again. First I need to make one ready for the breadboard or powerstrip. Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 20, 2009, 01:47:07 AM

Jeanna:

Great job on lighting the neon!!!!!! That means about 120 volts if I am not mistaken. I have 3 neons here and they each take 120 to fire up. (I use them in my Bedini replications) Great work.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 20, 2009, 02:40:54 AM

@ jeanna

"VCE(sat) = 1.1 Vdc (Max) @ IC = 4 Adc "

Means that it takes less than 1.1 volts between base and emitter to turn transistor on as much as it can go (called saturation).

You should only need a 100 ohm base resistor to light the fluorescent tube. No caps or diodes should be required. If by some chance that doesn't work use a 50 ohm base resistor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 20, 2009, 09:35:56 AM

here is some work on the tesla coil. its a fairly large paragraph bigger than previously posted so i put it in txt format for everyone to download and read at their pleasure.

i think everyone should read this as i think it will show you the direction the joule thief needs to move. i myself forgot about teslas resonance in electricity and it appears dispite my previous beliefs that a couple members here are right, resonance is good. but the current configurations will not allow us to reach that easily if at all.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 20, 2009, 09:52:14 AM

@ Jeanna

Good job lighting the neons. Sounds like you have the same one I have. Have you tried your coil without a resister. My Hazens coil works much better without one. I would also recomend trying the tip31c and the 2N3055 as stated above. I have seen 60v differenced between the 3 types of transistors. Strange... to me it seems like it depends on the type of coil and winding config. you are using to find the right transister.

Good luck!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 20, 2009, 09:58:14 AM

Quote from: stprue on May 19, 2009, 08:19:06 PM
Well there's no question that you know far more then myself. In fact I have taught myself over the past 8 months what little I know now. I'm proud of that!

im a strong believer that we are all equally smart we just know different things. ive been fooling around with electronics and magnetism/magnets since 1999 so :) ive had some good times.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 20, 2009, 10:17:22 AM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on May 20, 2009, 09:35:56 AM
here is some work on the tesla coil. its a fairly large paragraph bigger than previously posted so i put it in txt format for everyone to download and read at their pleasure.

i think everyone should read this as i think it will show you the direction the joule thief needs to move. i myself forgot about teslas resonance in electricity and it appears dispite my previous beliefs that a couple members here are right, resonance is good. but the current configurations will not allow us to reach that easily if at all.

That is a great document! I recomend everyone to read it as it only takes a minute or 2 or3.

@Artic_Knight

What do you think the shape of this would be? Air coil...humm maybe you could wind around a hollow plastic core. Thick wire underneath going around the air core (maybe not all the way around, maybe just a few turns) and then thin wire going over everything??? (maybe not the few turns?) Well time to start experimenting!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 20, 2009, 10:56:13 AM

Quote from: jeanna on May 19, 2009, 09:06:42 PM
However...
That darn string of leds doesn't light. It works in the house socket, but still not with my secondary.

jenna is there a resistor or ferrite inductor (torroid basically) on the led string?

we are dealing with HF stuff here it doesnt like inductors which is ferrite torroids and stuff, i know we are using them to produce the frequency but they do create a certain degree of resistance and are actually used on computer monitors usb cables and other items to eliminate HF currents! if one of these found its way on the led string it would essentially be a killer for lighting them. resistors and other items could have a similiar effect.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 20, 2009, 11:31:46 AM

Quote from: hazens1 on May 19, 2009, 06:24:39 PM
Found a local supplier for toroids and other good stuff. Located 5 miles from my house ;D

I picked up some High Flux, Low Perm 1.3 inchers today...

http://www.surplussales.com/Inductors/FerToro/FerToro-3.html (http://www.surplussales.com/Inductors/FerToro/FerToro-3.html)

Hazens1 is there a particular reason you choose this model over some of the lower perm models of the same toroid?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 20, 2009, 12:00:34 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on May 19, 2009, 10:42:56 PM
explain to me how you can collect eddy current at the output terminals when that current is in the housing.

i am not saying that the effect you are writing about is not real, far from that.
i am simply saying that eddy currents is not the cause.

to really know what is happening, when there is a capacitor at the output, you should look at Lenz's law instead.

i am curious on exactly how you allow the electricity to flow in your pipe experiment.

eddy currents is a special case of induced currents, it circulate in a conductive material and loop on itself.

the rest is said to be an induced current.
same word "current" as if it was comming from a battery because that current is not different if it is induced by a mag field or by a battery.

well your right electricity is the same no matter if its battery or generator. to understand how you eliminate eddies from a dc generator (its possible but more complicated for ac) you first have to see eddies in action. eddie currents is the current generated my a magnet crossing copper and inducing a electric field that is not properly grounded or allowed to excape. eddies are thereby rellative to the resistance of electrical flow. if electricity had NO resistance there would be no eddies, if there is NO electrical flow there is max eddies. by placing a cap in direct contact of the generator output and having that cap be of a large enough capacity to properly obsorb and smooth out all the currents supplied by the generator you are essentially eliminating a large resistance because now the curcuit board IE charger component is not in the way slowing the flow.

with the copper tube experiment take a neo magnet (preferably the stronger the better) and drop it down a copper plumbing pipe. it will fall really slow. now attatch a electrode from one end of that pipe to a lightbulb (florecent was demonstrated) and connect the other end of the pipe to the other end of the bulb or other load. now you will see the magnet fall at a normal rate because it is able to better dispose of the electrostatic field built up in the conductor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 20, 2009, 12:23:59 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 20, 2009, 02:40:54 AM
@ jeanna

"VCE(sat) = 1.1 Vdc (Max) @ IC = 4 Adc "

Means that it takes less than 1.1 volts between base and emitter to turn transistor on as much as it can go (called saturation).

You should only need a 100 ohm base resistor to light the fluorescent tube. No caps or diodes should be required. If by some chance that doesn't work use a 50 ohm base resistor.

Thanks, xee

As always you provide great info.
I will get to this setup today.

@stprue
Thanks for the encouragement too.

OK I will report, of course. Maybe today or tomorrow. This seems to be a busy week. I better start now.

Thanks Bill, I couldn't get the neon fromm my radio shack last year. I have been asking them for things and they are actually stocking stuff so I can pick up an odd resistor or cap... this was a local find.

@AK
From time to time people like to make suggestion about where this thread should be aiming.
If you do it yourself and report it and have questions then the thread WILL go in that direction at least as much as you are doing it.

The magic of this group has a lot to do with the self direction from the members. We are following our creative bliss.

Now for mine! :D

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 20, 2009, 12:30:54 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on May 20, 2009, 10:56:13 AM
jeanna is there a resistor or ferrite inductor...

to eliminate HF currents! if one of these found its way on the led string it would essentially be a killer for lighting them. resistors and other items could have a similiar effect.

Maybe, but I can only see wires. The label says it is a series string and the lamps cannot be changed.
With 70 lamps= leds, this is probably a pair of strings in parallel. I know to keep the string from frying there is probably a resistor, but if it can light from the wall shouldn't I be able to light it with my jt?
I will look closely now, thanks for the heads-up. I don't see the thickness in the wire that usually means a ferrite hf protector.

Thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 20, 2009, 12:34:50 PM

Quote from: stprue on May 20, 2009, 10:17:22 AM
That is a great document! I recomend everyone to read it as it only takes a minute or 2 or3.

@Artic_Knight

What do you think the shape of this would be? Air coil...humm maybe you could wind around a hollow plastic core. Thick wire underneath going around the air core (maybe not all the way around, maybe just a few turns) and then thin wire going over everything??? (maybe not the few turns?) Well time to start experimenting!

well tesla used his pancake bifiliar coil as the primary on the air coil and it was in a cone shape. what i plan to do for my air cores is to take a tube of sorts (non conducting either cardboard or plastic) wind a fine wire till i cant stand it any more. 1 layer thick down the core. then with a ticker wire wrap a bifiliar 5 turns down in the center of the thin coil by center i mean from tip to tip put it in the middle. after connecting the ends like tesla did you should get 5 turns down then it returns to start and another 5 turns down.

i had the same coil design posted in a pic form a few pages previous. (probobly 50 pages by now)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 20, 2009, 12:41:48 PM

Neon bulb lit with only one wire.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 20, 2009, 12:42:57 PM

Quote from: stprue on May 20, 2009, 10:17:22 AM

What do you think the shape of this would be? Air coil...humm maybe you could wind around a hollow plastic core. Thick wire underneath going around the air core (maybe not all the way around, maybe just a few turns) and then thin wire going over everything??? (maybe not the few turns?) Well time to start experimenting!

Stprue,

This guy Bill Beaty is teriffic. He has an interesting bio, and he is a great teacher. He was the one who "created" the lightning exhibit at the Boston Science Museum, but he lives near Seattle, I believe.
Anyway he is a near as your browser.

These 2 pages will get you connected with his brilliance.

(one is directly about our joule thief as in well... see for yourself.)

http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/tesla/tesla.html (http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/tesla/tesla.html)

http://amasci.com/tesla/microtc.html (http://amasci.com/tesla/microtc.html)

Enjoy, but be sure to come back!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 20, 2009, 12:51:31 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 20, 2009, 12:23:59 PM
@AK
From time to time people like to make suggestion about where this thread should be aiming.
If you do it yourself and report it and have questions then the thread WILL go in that direction at least as much as you are doing it.

The magic of this group has a lot to do with the self direction from the members. We are following our creative bliss.

Now for mine! :D

jeanna

agreed jenna and i wouldnt want to stop any experiments in other areas however judging by what we are doing and going i would say we should start to move twards air cores. dont get me wrong torriods have their place and may prove to be better for the particular curcuit at hand but it would seem to hit those higher frequencies and potentially better energy efficiency we may need to consider dropping the doughnuts. :-p

the thing about experimenting is you have to try new things, cant stick to one thing or its not experimenting. and this forum is definately doing just that, experimenting!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 20, 2009, 01:48:40 PM

Another neon lit with one wire but using 20 turn collector coil.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on May 20, 2009, 01:59:43 PM

Quote from: stprue on May 20, 2009, 11:31:46 AM
Hazens1 is there a particular reason you choose this model over some of the lower perm models of the same toroid?

I chose the largest High Flux they had in stock. I wanted a lower perm, but they did not have in stock, so I went with this one.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 20, 2009, 02:15:01 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on May 20, 2009, 12:34:50 PM
well tesla used his pancake bifiliar coil as the primary on the air coil and it was in a cone shape. what i plan to do for my air cores is to take a tube of sorts (non conducting either cardboard or plastic) wind a fine wire till i cant stand it any more. 1 layer thick down the core. then with a ticker wire wrap a bifiliar 5 turns down in the center of the thin coil by center i mean from tip to tip put it in the middle. after connecting the ends like tesla did you should get 5 turns down then it returns to start and another 5 turns down.

i had the same coil design posted in a pic form a few pages previous. (probobly 50 pages by now)

I see I will do a little research on this. Thank you for the info.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 20, 2009, 02:16:53 PM

Quote from: hazens1 on May 20, 2009, 01:59:43 PM
I chose the largest High Flux they had in stock. I wanted a lower perm, but they did not have in stock, so I went with this one.

Ok, I was just wondering after looking at a few other options for the same toroid. What do you think...750v... 1000+ ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 20, 2009, 02:24:42 PM

@Jeanna

Thank you for the links they look like there is hours upon hours of good stuff to read and look at.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 20, 2009, 02:56:46 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on May 20, 2009, 12:51:31 PM

the thing about experimenting is you have to try new things, cant stick to one thing or its not experimenting. and this forum is definately doing just that, experimenting!

Yes.

I missed saying this quite the right way.

If you did it, and it looked interesting to someone else, that person would try it and then next one then again. OR if you tried it and someone helped you get it right, then someone else might want to try it too.

It is a more organic approach than a suggestion, because I am positive that the good folks on this thread have many ideas yet untried and will simply not get around to it... before you that is.

======

@2N3055
It simply does not work with one battery in this application.
Period.
I even used a lithium AAA which has 1.72v right now.

I have 2 of these 2N3055. One says HV after the 3055 part so I used both of them.

The thing is set up fine but the BJTLed does not go on unless I use 2AAA and my 2AAA at the moment has 2.64v.
I used 2 resistors 150r and 500r.

And even then when the BJTL goes on with the 2AAA batteries, there is no activity in the secondary. NONE!!!

And, this is NOT the new toroid. This is with the tried and true MK1 that I have made so many tables about 3T,4T,92T. This MK1 works and works well, too.

Humbug.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 20, 2009, 03:25:50 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on May 20, 2009, 02:56:46 PM
I used 2 resistors 150r and 500r.

This is with the tried and true MK1 that I have made so many tables about 3T,4T,92T.

The 2N3055 requires moe current to work. Did you try this with a 10 turn collecotor coil and a 50 ohm base resistor?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 20, 2009, 03:42:13 PM

Patents normally don't give many quantitative specifics, but Tesla's wireless power patent does give some about the big prototype power-transmission tesla coil (which was, incidentally, used to conduct a demonstration before skeptical patent examiners). A 50,000-volt transformer charged a capacitor of .004 mfd., which discharged through a rotary gap that gave 5,000 breaks per second. The eight-foot diameter primary had just one turn of stout stranded cable. The secondary was 50 turns of heavily insulated No. 8 wire wound as a flat spiral. It vibrated at 230-250,000 cycles and produced 2 to 4 million volts. This coil evolved into the huge experimental magnifying transmitter Tesla describes in his Colorado Springs notes.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 20, 2009, 03:43:07 PM

@xee,
What about when it WAS working (I assume the 2AAA gave it what it needed since they turned on the bjtl -- they certainly gave it the current it needed. The proof is that it went on) and there was absolutely nothing at the secondary. A secondary that is very strong with the 3904.

?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on May 20, 2009, 03:43:08 PM

@ AK...re: your Tesla Doc.

Thank you...that was very enlightening.

"The primary circuit's frequency is determined by the frequency and voltage of the source "

Would the joule thief be suitable 'source' in its present stage, or are more amps needed ?

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 20, 2009, 03:47:07 PM

Quote from: Cap-Z-ro on May 20, 2009, 03:43:08 PM
@ AK...re: your Tesla Doc.

Thank you...that was very enlightening.

"The primary circuit's frequency is determined by the frequency and voltage of the source "

Would the joule thief be suitable 'source' in its present stage, or are more amps needed ?

Regards...

I will let AK answer you also, but I can say I tried it. It is what I used to turn on my 2 Tier circuit. It made the second joule thief work without any additional transistor. The pulses from this as source were able to turn on another joule thief.

If you have been following you might remember other more exciting things followed.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on May 20, 2009, 04:12:15 PM

Hey Jeanna,

You guys are hard to keep up with...between that and the Black Hawks on TV while I am catching up is affecting my attention span.

In case you didn't know...the last time they won the cup was in 1961...and they are close again for the first time since 1992.

I even plan on giving the screen a good cleaning if they reach the finals, so you know its big.

So needless to say I am a little distracted at times.

I do recall your 2 T j/t though.

I hadn't considered your application yet...I was just theorizing more along the lines of the single j/t providing the amplified voltage to the Tesla air coil transformer.

Your double toroid advancement would probably have dawned on me somewhere down the road.

I must say, you guys are in danger of doing significant things the way you're going about things.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 20, 2009, 04:16:44 PM

Cap:

I love the way you put this......

"I must say, you guys are in danger of doing significant things the way you're going about things."

I agree 100%

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 20, 2009, 04:23:14 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on May 20, 2009, 03:43:07 PM
The proof is that it went on) and there was absolutely nothing at the secondary.

I have no explanation for that. Seems very strange that when a voltage is being generated across the collector coil that there would be absolutely nothing at the pickup coil. You do come up with difficult problems. But those are the best to learn from.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 20, 2009, 04:28:01 PM

Wow. This circuit is lightling the fluorescent tube brightly with only 51 ma.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 20, 2009, 04:57:55 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on May 20, 2009, 12:00:34 PM
eddie currents is the current generated my a magnet crossing copper and inducing a electric field that is not properly grounded or allowed to excape. eddies are thereby rellative to the resistance of electrical flow. if electricity had NO resistance there would be no eddies, if there is NO electrical flow there is max eddies. by placing a cap in direct contact of the generator output and having that cap be of a large enough capacity to properly obsorb and smooth out all the currents supplied by the generator you are essentially eliminating a large resistance because now the curcuit board IE charger component is not in the way slowing the flow.

i won't argue with you.
i already told you what eddy currents is and won't repete myself.

Quote from: Artic_Knight on May 20, 2009, 12:00:34 PM
with the copper tube experiment take a neo magnet (preferably the stronger the better) and drop it down a copper plumbing pipe. it will fall really slow. now attatch a electrode from one end of that pipe to a lightbulb (florecent was demonstrated) and connect the other end of the pipe to the other end of the bulb or other load. now you will see the magnet fall at a normal rate because it is able to better dispose of the electrostatic field built up in the conductor.

i just did that experiment.
i must not have the right electrodes because it does nothing.
the drop speed of the magnet is not affected.
i connected the resistances to both side of the pipe with alligator clips in different ways.
the only way a have not try is with one connection to the inside of one end to the outside of the other end.
resistances i used were 10, 330 and 2k Ohms

i have even tried to take volts and amps reading and was not getting anything.

but i was kinda expecting those 0 values because droping a magnet in a pipe is the same as an homopolar generator.

Edit.
tables code are screwed in this forum...
see the table here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homopolar_generator) homopolar generator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homopolar_generator)
position 5 in the table.
rotating = movement
disk = the tube
external indicating circuit = pickup brushes

if the tube was a coil of the same length of my tube. the magnet would drop fast when the coil is not connected to anything and drop slower if the coil is shorted or connected to a low value resistor.
what is making the magnet drop slower in that case can not be called eddy current.
a mag field crossing a wire at 90 degres does not create eddy currents.

the magnet drop speed would be different if i was to connect a capacitor to the coil.
can you tell me why ?

you don't really have to answere that question.
i already know the reasons why.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on May 20, 2009, 05:01:44 PM

Bill, its your collective openness and receptiveness to each others ideas is what makes this group so productive.

You people all belong in a lab somewhere...but not as subjects tho.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 20, 2009, 06:28:34 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 20, 2009, 02:56:46 PM
Yes.

I missed saying this quite the right way.

If you did it, and it looked interesting to someone else, that person would try it and then next one then again. OR if you tried it and someone helped you get it right, then someone else might want to try it too.

It is a more organic approach than a suggestion, because I am positive that the good folks on this thread have many ideas yet untried and will simply not get around to it... before you that is.

======

@2N3055
It simply does not work with one battery in this application.
Period.
I even used a lithium AAA which has 1.72v right now.

I have 2 of these 2N3055. One says HV after the 3055 part so I used both of them.

The thing is set up fine but the BJTLed does not go on unless I use 2AAA and my 2AAA at the moment has 2.64v.
I used 2 resistors 150r and 500r.

And even then when the BJTL goes on with the 2AAA batteries, there is no activity in the secondary. NONE!!!

And, this is NOT the new toroid. This is with the tried and true MK1 that I have made so many tables about 3T,4T,92T. This MK1 works and works well, too.

Humbug.

jeanna

I'm very surprised that the 2N3055 wont work for you! My first real set up uses this and it works great 40-9-7 and 4.7k POT old panisonic AA battery. Oh well I like the tip31c better anyway it seems to have better gain to me.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 20, 2009, 06:31:55 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 20, 2009, 04:28:01 PM
Wow. This circuit is lightling the fluorescent tube brightly with only 51 ma.

That's a great job xee2 man 280 turns that must have taken some time! 51ma dammmm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 20, 2009, 07:28:40 PM

This has really been a strange day or a day of strange outcomes.

I wanted to get back to a known thing, so I set up the MK1 3.4.92 with a 2n2222 transistor because that was the last thing there, and the light only went on if I had the 2222 going in one direction but not both. This is really odd because this is the negistor. Not only that, when I had the transistor reversed so it did turn on the light it only barely flashed. This is with the 2200 ohm resistor.

So, I shrugged my shoulders and took out the led then hooked up the scope and it showed 327V. Good that is what I got before with this coil.

Then I hit the neon with the secondary leads and it lit.!! So, it was the neons I was using that must have had a resistor to keep them safe to 300 volts for the camera flash.

Next, I popped that led back into the bjtled spot and with the neon still connected to the secondary the led went blazing bright. At the same time the neon went off.

I seem to remember jadaro or somebody having a neon that could light instead of the bjt.

well this is interesting. maybe I should try that fluoro tube. I think I will...

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 20, 2009, 08:27:26 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 19, 2009, 07:55:53 PM

I have read in several places that you can't put more than 3 supercaps in series. They gave a really good explanation of why but, I can't remember what it was.

Bill

Hi . bill . that might be true for little super caps but ULTRA CAP From Maxwell can be connected in series up to 125 vols. they sell Modules with many series ultras in them . heres the spec on them :The BMOD0063-P125 (HTM125) module is based on 2.7-volt BOOSTCAPÂ® BCAP3000 Power cells and incorporates proprietary balancing, monitoring and thermal management capabilities to ensure industry-leading charge/discharge performance, high reliability and long operational life.

The HTM125 meets or exceeds transportation industry requirements for watt-hours of energy storage and watts of power delivery per kilogram, and is designed to perform reliably through one million or more deep charge/discharge cycles, which equates to more than 15 years of operational life.

* 125V operating voltage

@all On sale get them before there all gone at this price !!!! gadgetmall store .. this one will burn lamp wire into if shorted !!!.
Gadget 650 farads 2.7 volts

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 20, 2009, 08:46:12 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 20, 2009, 04:28:01 PM
Wow. This circuit is lightling the fluorescent tube brightly with only 51 ma.

Nice Going .I told you . that can be lower also . ! At least you will laight that light all night long now at least 16 hours on an nimh aa !! . Good going . I dont have toroids like yours .Is it goldmine stuff ? I cannot run 2 or 4 loops on any of mine .
Gadget .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 20, 2009, 08:49:06 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 20, 2009, 07:28:40 PM
This has really been a strange day or a day of strange outcomes.

I wanted to get back to a known thing, so I set up the MK1 3.4.92 with a 2n2222 transistor because that was the last thing there, and the light only went on if I had the 2222 going in one direction but not both. This is really odd because this is the negistor. Not only that, when I had the transistor reversed so it did turn on the light it only barely flashed. This is with the 2200 ohm resistor.

So, I shrugged my shoulders and took out the led then hooked up the scope and it showed 327V. Good that is what I got before with this coil.

Then I hit the neon with the secondary leads and it lit.!! So, it was the neons I was using that must have had a resistor to keep them safe to 300 volts for the camera flash.

Next, I popped that led back into the bjtled spot and with the neon still connected to the secondary the led went blazing bright. At the same time the neon went off.

I seem to remember jadaro or somebody having a neon that could light instead of the bjt.

well this is interesting. maybe I should try that fluoro tube. I think I will...

jeanna

Good going Jeanna !! .What torroid core are you using ?? goldmine 5 for 1 dollar ?

Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 20, 2009, 09:05:55 PM

Al:

Thanks, that is good news. I just can't remember what site I read that on about the supercaps in series but I believe it was a site selling them. They did mention that you could, BUT, you had to buy their special controller circuit or they said you would fry the caps.

I mentioned your EB kit over at energetic forum on the EB topic and folks seem very interested over there. There is a link to your site on the EB page posted there now. (someone else posted it after I mentioned it)
I will let you know about the supercap, just a few more jobs to complete and I will be fine this month. (whew!)

@Xee2:

Great job on your JT!!! It also looks really cool too. That is a really good output you have and it looks like even I might be able to wind it. Nice going.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 20, 2009, 09:12:59 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 20, 2009, 08:49:06 PM
Go going Jeanna !! .What torroid core are you using ?? goldmine 5 for 1 dollar?

Thanks Al,

No, I can't get this kind of jump with those. they are truly medium.

However, this is also from the goldmine. It is the one they call filter 2/$1.35
It barely holds the 92 turns with the 7 others. I think I was going for 100 and saw in time I wouldn't make it and it had to be 92 which is 23 each leg up down-- up down.

The limit on this one is that it is less than 1 inch diameter.

I think the reason I am not lighting the fluoro is my set up. I am not sure what needs to be done. I added a 47uF, 350V cap across the secondary leads. Maybe the cap should be in line with a what? a resistor across it? people are using a diode. Is that what I should try? If so, where?

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 20, 2009, 09:34:20 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 20, 2009, 09:12:59 PM
Thanks Al,

No, I can't get this kind of jump with those. they are truly medium.

However, this is also from the goldmine. It is the one they call filter 2/$1.35
It barely holds the 92 turns with the 7 others. I think I was going for 100 and saw in time I wouldn't make it and it had to be 92 which is 23 each leg up down-- up down.

The limit on this one is that it is less than 1 inch diameter.

I think the reason I am not lighting the fluoro is my set up. I am not sure what needs to be done. I added a 47uF, 350V cap across the secondary leads. Maybe the cap should be in line with a what? a resistor across it? people are using a diode. Is that what I should try? If so, where?

thanks,

jeanna

Yes a diode one one lead and a ceramic cap on the other and tie the end of the diode and cap . Alos it matters which way you put the diode and on which lead of the secondary . try until you get the highest . Do you mind posting a picture of your coil and "filter" ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 20, 2009, 10:07:35 PM

OK First I took a fresh picture.

the red wired one is the filter G16214 as it comes with 2 pair winds of 19 turns each.
The next is that with the 3T4T92T on it as a MK1

then a little bare Tor-23 from allelectronics. It is too small, but it makes great little lights. When wound it is just about the diameter of a AA battery. The berry and xTree and widow were all made of this.
The last is wound like the widow but with newbie wire. It really makes a great slim jt. This gets about 50volts very reliably.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 20, 2009, 10:17:50 PM

Quote from: Cap-Z-ro on May 20, 2009, 03:43:08 PM
@ AK...re: your Tesla Doc.

Thank you...that was very enlightening.

"The primary circuit's frequency is determined by the frequency and voltage of the source "

Would the joule thief be suitable 'source' in its present stage, or are more amps needed ?

Regards...

well with current you have to look at it in a volume standpoint i may have 1 gallon of water thats my watts, volts x amps but now i want maximum volts so i take the water and divide it up into the smallest droplets i can. obviously i can only go so far before i run out. more amps allows for higher volts if your trying to max that, but you will reduce the amps to make the volts and you will reduce the volts to make amps, so it all boils down to what you want and of course there is a limit to what you can stretch it to.

will more amps help? sure! starting with a higher voltage will too. but again what your looking at is your watts. 1 watt is good for lets just pretend 1k volts. 2 watts can get you 2k volts. you can increase the watts by either increasing the starting voltage or starting amps or both.

if we assume the volts and power supply IE 1 AA battery stays the same in all experiments then you will need to increase the amp draw to increase maximum POTENTIAL volts. what you do with it IE the transformer characteristics will determine if you reach that potential by stepping it up till you can no longer step it up.

make sense?

now he was simply defining in this posting i made that you can increase or decrease the current in this specific situation by increasing voltage. now you have to consider his application. he is trying to take a cap and when it reaches a certain voltage it will jump a spark gap created of 2 conductors that do not touch. we could use a diode in this same situation for the same purpose and when the diode reaches its breakdown voltage it will allow a jump to the other side. this will happen every time the cap has the higher voltage than what is needed. frequency is dependent on how often this happens so voltage makes a difference for this application.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 20, 2009, 10:19:51 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 20, 2009, 09:34:20 PM
Yes a diode on one lead and a ceramic cap on the other and tie the end of the diode and cap . Also it matters which way you put the diode and on which lead of the secondary . try until you get the highest

I only have the can type. I have not found anything that is bigger than .1uF in a ceramic cap. I will try it and see.

I assume I tie the ends of the diode and cap together and they are both as one unit inside the leads as parallel to the ends of the fluoro.
I will try that which I just described. If this is not what you mean, I will see what you mean after I try this. OK?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 20, 2009, 10:28:40 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 20, 2009, 10:07:35 PM
OK First I took a fresh picture.

the red wired one is the filter G16214 as it comes with 2 pair winds of 19 turns each.
The next is that with the 3T4T92T on it as a MK1

then a little bare Tor-23 from allelectronics. It is too small, but it makes great little lights. When wound it is just about the diameter of a AA battery. The berry and xTree and widow were all made of this.
The last is wound like the widow but with newbie wire. It really makes a great slim jt. This gets about 50volts very reliably.

jeanna

thank you Jeanna . Nice Pictures and that Is fat Filter . Gray . . It looks like it is Machined very well with smooth edges . .
You wont light up any Christmas light with an electrolytic on the output of your beefy one . use ceramic . 104 if you go em . you might try the two stage voltage doubler . 2 diodes two ceramics on the out and see if they light then . It might be polarized . i notice when i run them they are very bright one way only . :idea:

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 20, 2009, 10:30:50 PM

Quote from: Cap-Z-ro on May 20, 2009, 04:12:15 PM
Hey Jeanna,

You guys are hard to keep up with...between that and the Black Hawks on TV while I am catching up is affecting my attention span.

In case you didn't know...the last time they won the cup was in 1961...and they are close again for the first time since 1992.

I even plan on giving the screen a good cleaning if they reach the finals, so you know its big.

So needless to say I am a little distracted at times.

I do recall your 2 T j/t though.

I hadn't considered your application yet...I was just theorizing more along the lines of the single j/t providing the amplified voltage to the Tesla air coil transformer.

Your double toroid advancement would probably have dawned on me somewhere down the road.

I must say, you guys are in danger of doing significant things the way you're going about things.

Regards...

if your thinking of using the JT as a power curcuit to the tesla transformer then yes it should work fine. find a good high frequency curcuit design here on this forum (so many different designs with different bennifits!) will work and you can add a third coil like the way they have been using it to light CFL lights to excite the primary winding on the tesla "rod" portion. then take a large coil put it in the middle of the primary off the JT and ground one end while creating an arial with the other. that should work nicely. im not confident a single AA will have the push needed for this but hey it might! to have a spark bridge a air gap of 1/4 a inch it required 20k volts! thats a lot! im sure with some tinkering one could use a 12v car battery and this curcuit (would require additional/different parts) to do just that. or i think one could use the JT for the frequency generator and bridge that to a mosfet to allow for the 12v car battery to run through a step up transformer and to the primary of the tesla coil itself.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 20, 2009, 10:33:06 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 20, 2009, 04:28:01 PM
Wow. This circuit is lightling the fluorescent tube brightly with only 51 ma.

i wonder what 1k turns for the CFL would do then? do you think its the turns for the CFL connection thats producing the brightness of it? it looks that way.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 20, 2009, 11:09:35 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 20, 2009, 10:28:40 PM
thank you Jeanna . Nice Pictures and that Is fat Filter . Gray . . It looks like it is Machined very well with smooth edges . .
You wont light up any Christmas light with an electrolytic on the output of your beefy one . use ceramic . 104 if you go em . you might try the two stage voltage doubler . 2 diodes two ceramics on the out and see if they light then . It might be polarized . i notice when i run them they are very bright one way only . :idea:

The grey is a paint, er it comes off if the black rubber glue is stuck too hard and I yank it off when I pull off the red wire.

OK one of each doesn't work yet on the fluoro. I will check the string o leds before I add another diode and 104 cap.

I just looked with the scope.
Without anything the voltage across the secondary leads is
285V
add a diode 2N4007 in one direction and it drops to
50v
turn it around and it hits a low of 2.5v or was that .25v.

I can try just the cap, or maybe I did?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 20, 2009, 11:14:59 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on May 20, 2009, 04:57:55 PM
i won't argue with you.
i already told you what eddy currents is and won't repete myself.

i just did that experiment.
i must not have the right electrodes because it does nothing.
the drop speed of the magnet is not affected.
i connected the resistances to both side of the pipe with alligator clips in different ways.
the only way a have not try is with one connection to the inside of one end to the outside of the other end.
resistances i used were 10, 330 and 2k Ohms

i have even tried to take volts and amps reading and was not getting anything.

but i was kinda expecting those 0 values because droping a magnet in a pipe is the same as an homopolar generator.

Edit.
tables code are screwed in this forum...
see the table here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homopolar_generator) homopolar generator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homopolar_generator)
position 5 in the table.
rotating = movement
disk = the tube
external indicating circuit = pickup brushes

if the tube was a coil of the same length of my tube. the magnet would drop fast when the coil is not connected to anything and drop slower if the coil is shorted or connected to a low value resistor.
what is making the magnet drop slower in that case can not be called eddy current.
a mag field crossing a wire at 90 degres does not create eddy currents.

the magnet drop speed would be different if i was to connect a capacitor to the coil.
can you tell me why ?

you don't really have to answere that question.
i already know the reasons why.

I will be nice and state only the following on this "argument"

call it what ever you want. lenz law, eddy currents or telekinisis it works as stated, if the electricity doesnt flow there is magnetic resistance, if the electricity flows there is no resistance unless resistance is placed in the path of the electric current in the form of curcuits or other.

for your viewing pleasure here is a youtube link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDCgxZ87oNc

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 20, 2009, 11:17:33 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on May 20, 2009, 10:17:50 PM
now you have to consider his application. he is trying to take a cap and when it reaches a certain voltage it will jump a spark gap created of 2 conductors that do not touch. we could use a diode in this same situation for the same purpose and when the diode reaches its breakdown voltage it will allow a jump to the other side. this will happen every time the cap has the higher voltage than what is needed. frequency is dependent on how often this happens so voltage makes a difference for this application.

you might be forgetting important things.

most diodes only conduct one way.
avalanche breakdown is not destructive but normal diodes will blow up if the voltage go over their reverse voltage rating.

avalanche diodes only allow the overvoltages above its breakdown voltage to pass and are only one way too.
not both way like a spark gap.

transient voltage suppression diodes are like the avalanche diodes but conduct both way.
and like the avalanche diodes it let only the overvoltage go through.

they will not let the cap discharge completly.
if the avalanche diodes/transient voltage suppression diodes are set for 100volts and the capacacitor voltage is 101 volts, you will only have 1 volts at it output.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 20, 2009, 11:23:29 PM

If I get the chance later, I am going to go for 200 leds on the JT/earth battery set-up. Wish me luck.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 20, 2009, 11:20:10 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on May 20, 2009, 11:17:33 PM
you might be forgetting important things.

most diodes only conduct one way.
avalanche breakdown is not destructive but normal diodes will blow up if the voltage go over their reverse voltage rating.

avalanche diodes only allow the overvoltages above its breakdown voltage to pass and are only one way too.
not both way like a spark gap.

transient voltage suppression diodes are like the avalanche diodes but conduct both way.
and like the avalanche diodes it let only the overvoltage go through.

they will not let the cap discharge completly.
if the avalanche diodes/transient voltage suppression diodes are set for 100volts and the capacacitor voltage is 101 volts, you will only have 1 volts at it output.

yes perhaps that was a broad statement as you pointed out there are different diods with different behaviors some lending to the spark gap others would be pointless if used in the same situation.

i believe theres a wiki on diodes that is fairly thorough. thanks for the correction, dont want anyone blowing diodes for no good reason!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 20, 2009, 11:29:19 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on May 20, 2009, 11:14:59 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDCgxZ87oNc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDCgxZ87oNc)

do you also have one similar to the experiment you suggested to me ?

i have no problem re-creating the same effect as in this video.
i simply can not tape the eddy current with the way you have suggested me to do.

connecting a capacitor on both side of the tube don't change the speed either.
at least not for me.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 20, 2009, 11:37:58 PM

HEY YEAY YEAY,
I got the string o leds to respond.
These puppys are heavily protected. I think it is amazing they are soo bright when plugged into the wall.

Oh only half will light up at one time. If I reverse the aligator clips on the plug the other half will light. Both sides are lighting very dimly, so I am blaming a resistor.
I seems the base of 2 of the lights is very much bigger than the rest. It is the first of the group that lights or doesn't.
I need to be Ms. Destructo and open these 2 units up.

ooo hoo!!

The recipe for this success is this:

3T,4T,92T MK1
2N2222
220r base resistor
string o leds connected 1 plug prong to each secondary wire to light up half the string.
20.7mA

I also have a 47uF electrolytic cap across the battery leads. This adds a bit to the brightness but is not necessary. A second one in parallel there does not add to the brightness.

I think I will see if I can string these 47uF caps in series and add them to the rail and see what will happen.

2 days in a row!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 20, 2009, 11:44:50 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 20, 2009, 11:23:29 PM
If I get the chance later, I am going to go for 200 leds on the JT/earth battery set-up. Wish me luck.

Bill

I anticipate a great video with 200 leds coming out of KY somewhere...

good luck.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 20, 2009, 11:47:28 PM

Jeanna:

Great job on you leds!!! Soon, very soon, you will have them all lit up.

As for my upcoming experiment, thank you for the wishes, I am not so sure about this one but.....we don't know unless we try right?

Thank you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 21, 2009, 12:00:18 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 20, 2009, 11:47:28 PM
.....we don't know unless we try right?

Exactly!

And, even when it fails, it is much more fun to try than to just wonder.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 21, 2009, 12:05:17 AM

Quote from: TheNOP on May 20, 2009, 11:29:19 PM
do you also have one similar to the experiment you suggested to me ?

i have no problem re-creating the same effect as in this video.
i simply can not tape the eddy current with the way you have suggested me to do.

connecting a capacitor on both side of the tube don't change the speed either.
at least not for me.

sorry it appeared in general you couldnt get it to even slow down in the tube. i do not have a video of the magnet falling and powering a light but i experienced it. if i can i will get a video.

you should be connecting the gator clips at the top of the tube (entry) and at the bottom of the tube (exit) doesnt matter inside or out. connecting it in this way with nothing but a wire linking the 2 ends together should do fine for getting the magnet to fall at a normal rate.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 21, 2009, 12:19:04 AM

Quote from: jeanna on May 20, 2009, 11:37:58 PM
HEY YEAY YEAY,
I got the string o leds to respond.
These puppys are heavily protected. I think it is amazing they are soo bright when plugged into the wall.

Oh only half will light up at one time. If I reverse the aligator clips on the plug the other half will light. Both sides are lighting very dimly, so I am blaming a resistor.
I seems the base of 2 of the lights is very much bigger than the rest. It is the first of the group that lights or doesn't.
I need to be Ms. Destructo and open these 2 units up.

ooo hoo!!

The recipe for this success is this:

3T,4T,92T MK1
2N2222
220r base resistor
string o leds connected 1 plug prong to each secondary wire to light up half the string.
20.7mA

I also have a 47uF electrolytic cap across the battery leads. This adds a bit to the brightness but is not necessary. A second one in parallel there does not add to the brightness.

I think I will see if I can string these 47uF caps in series and add them to the rail and see what will happen.

2 days in a row!

jeanna

sSounds Good ! i think you could use a good pot(not the smokin kind) in the base and maybe try a few caps across the wiper of the cap . Justa Suggestion . you might hit a frequency the leds really like and more power transferred to the secondary .
Pirate . im 100% sure they will light and i am pretty sure 400 willl light as well . because your fugi wont know its powered by a battery or super cap . . When you get one of these big caps be careful if you charge them over 1.6 volts and run your fugi . I have a small circuit i can give ya to make and regulate the full 2.7v down to 1.5 for a fugi .

<span style="color: #CC33CC">Gadget</span>

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 21, 2009, 12:20:08 AM

The 51 ma circuit would not light a 20 watt tube. But this circuit can using 123 ma.

@ gadgetmall

Toroid is surplus with no info but it looks like it is for heavy duty power supply since it comes with 1/8" wires wrapped on it. I have tried TIP121 and it did not work in any of my circuits. Adding base inductor did not help either. Can you provide more info on your circuit? Does it always have the same battery drain or does it change with load and if so what is it with the different loads?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 21, 2009, 12:30:59 AM

Quote from: xee2 on May 21, 2009, 12:20:08 AM
The 51 ma circuit would not light a 20 watt tube. But this circuit can using 123 ma.

@ gadgetmall

Toroid is surplus with no info but it looks like it is for heavy duty power supply since it comes with 1/8" wires wrapped on it. I have tried TIP121 and it did not work in any of my circuits. Adding base inductor did not help either. Can you provide more info on your circuit? Does it always have the same battery drain or does it change with load and if so what is it with the different loads?

Hi . Its adjustable with the pot AND i use a 104 cap on the wiper . i run the darlington on 1.2 volts and when i adjust the frequency it will hit several spots where the voltage jumps high . I could make it draw 200 ma but i get good cold light with less than 70 . Its probably the torroid difference also and the windings . I never could get the hazen1 replication to do anything with tip 31 2n3055 or the tip121 .would not oscillate .. ALSO your Schematic need correction above . you have the 280 turns connection to the 2 and 20 :)

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 21, 2009, 12:50:10 AM

@ gadgetmall

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 21, 2009, 12:30:59 AM
ALSO your Schematic need correction above . you have the 280 turns connection to the 2 and 20 :)

Schematic is correct. All coils are connected to positive of battery.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 21, 2009, 12:53:14 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 21, 2009, 12:19:04 AM
Sounds Good ! i think you could use a good pot(not the smokin kind) in the base and maybe try a few caps across the wiper of the cap . Justa Suggestion . you might hit a frequency the leds really like and more power transferred to the secondary .

I have done exhaustive tests on this MK1. I had the precision pot from 20k to zilch and I got a beautiful graph and very useful amounts of info and usability from the toroid...(also the caps in that table were all using this toroid...)

... which is why I was so disappointed when I could neither light a neon nor a string o leds.

The neon is handled

Now, I have broken into this string (there is no way to repair this, they must mould the plastic around the parts because it cannot separate. Good thing I know how to solder the wires.)

So, the culprit is a diode. I broke it at the end but it is the 1N400x kind.
This light has 3 wires clearly so the diode can be put into line. I will just clean cut the wires and resolder the string and remove the other one and repair it the same way. This will be a good little string when I am finished.

Then on to the fluoro-tube...

thank you,

Ms. Destructo

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 21, 2009, 12:54:38 AM

Quote from: xee2 on May 21, 2009, 12:50:10 AM
@ gadgetmall

Schematic is correct. All coils are connected to positive of battery.

Really . So your secondary is tied to the primary . ok Sorry .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 21, 2009, 12:56:36 AM

Quote from: xee2 on May 21, 2009, 12:50:10 AM
All coils are connected to positive of battery.

OH!
So, it isn't a true secondary in this case because it is connected to the pos battery!
That ought to help!

thanks xee,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 21, 2009, 01:45:43 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 20, 2009, 08:27:26 PM
Hi . bill . that might be true for little super caps but ULTRA CAP From Maxwell can be connected in series up to 125 vols. they sell Modules with many series ultras in them . heres the spec on them :The BMOD0063-P125 (HTM125) module is based on 2.7-volt BOOSTCAPÂ® BCAP3000 Power cells and incorporates proprietary balancing, monitoring and thermal management capabilities to ensure industry-leading charge/discharge performance, high reliability and long operational life.

The HTM125 meets or exceeds transportation industry requirements for watt-hours of energy storage and watts of power delivery per kilogram, and is designed to perform reliably through one million or more deep charge/discharge cycles, which equates to more than 15 years of operational life.

* 125V operating voltage

@all On sale get them before there all gone at this price !!!! gadgetmall store .. this one will burn lamp wire into if shorted !!!.
Gadget 650 farads 2.7 volts

Gadget:

I won't even bother to ask just how you know this will melt a lamp wire....ha ha, I can guess. I promise you I am ordering one of these. Thanks.

@ Ms Destructo:

Hey be careful, names like this can stick. Just ask General Jim, ha ha. speaking of Jim, I hope he is ok as I have not seen him here lately.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 21, 2009, 01:55:39 AM

Here is the earth battery-joule thief-supercaps set-up lighting 200 leds:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLzdHRovnbo

I am not really happy with the way this video turned out. It looked fine when reviewing it but after uploading, something happened to the exposure it seems. Looks like I was filming in an English fog. Also, in the version on my hasrd drive, I can see all the circuit details, on Youtube, it just looks dark. Oh well, it did work. so, on to the next level.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 21, 2009, 04:01:13 AM

@ Thaelin,
Nice fined this circuit.

Quote from: Thaelin on May 19, 2009, 10:52:32 AM
To further the doubler/tripler circuit, I found this on the web. States that it will fail at around ten sections due to losses. Dont think it should go past 3 really. Watch out for the zaps if you do.

thaelin

Its called a Walton Crockcroft voltage multiplyer, developed by the two fellas who needed huge high voltage for their experiments with the A Bomb.

I saw a tripple or 3 phase WC circuit during my web travels yesterday.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 21, 2009, 04:18:09 AM

@Jeanna,

Caps in the circuits

Quote from: jeanna on May 19, 2009, 02:50:37 PM
I am not sure where you mean, but I have definitely seen it on the scope. You put the cap in and all the spikes - well almost all- get turned into nice curves and the thing is all smoothed out. I think this is why they help in some applications, but the voltage goes way way down.

I bet it has to do with the size and its relation to the rest.

jeanna

Capacitors which are placed in any circuit that has spikes in it will smooth the spikes, they are used in all type of power supplies, Plug packs, internal power supplies.
This is why you carn't see the full spike on the cro, the cap has smoothed it out.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 21, 2009, 06:42:12 AM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on May 21, 2009, 12:05:17 AM
you should be connecting the gator clips at the top of the tube (entry) and at the bottom of the tube (exit) doesnt matter inside or out. connecting it in this way with nothing but a wire linking the 2 ends together should do fine for getting the magnet to fall at a normal rate.

i does not work for me.

the more i search on this the more i am comming to the conclusion that there are no potencial change at the 2 ends of the pipe, no matter if a magnet is slowly droping inside or not.

i am assuming this from the homopolar phenomenas.
localy, near the magnet, it should be different.
i have not tested this yet.

the only way i have got measurements values to date are when i cross the pipe at 90 degres.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 21, 2009, 12:03:04 PM

@all

Novice request!

Could someone kindly post an actuall picture not a schematic of a voltage doubler/tripler? When using one does the set-up have to come directly off the coil wires or can it be after the bridge rectifier?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 21, 2009, 12:30:24 PM

This circuit lights fluorescent tube using only one wire. Not very bright but seems brighter than Fuji board and it is using less current than Fuji board.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 21, 2009, 12:55:41 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on May 21, 2009, 06:42:12 AM
i does not work for me.

the more i search on this the more i am comming to the conclusion that there are no potencial change at the 2 ends of the pipe, no matter if a magnet is slowly droping inside or not.

i am assuming this from the homopolar phenomenas.
localy, near the magnet, it should be different.
i have not tested this yet.

the only way i have got measurements values to date are when i cross the pipe at 90 degres.

dunno maybe it was the orientation of the magnetic poles, honestly im moving on.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 21, 2009, 12:59:07 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 21, 2009, 12:30:24 PM
This circuit lights fluorescent tube using only one wire. Not very bright but seems brighter than Fuji board and it is using less current than Fuji board.

i will bet if you ground that wire in the earth the one left hanging it will work better :) all it takes is a nail.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 21, 2009, 01:02:02 PM

@xee,

I have some 47uF caps. If I put them in parallel in the battery rail won't I get the same thing you have in your 100uF in your battery rail? (less a few, obviously)
I also have a few of those fuji caps. Is that what you are using in your battery rail?

I only have a 7 watt fluoro tube (and larger) and my secondary is not as high a multiplication as yours, so I doubt if I can achieve this today, but since I am getting 260 to 370 v as shown on the scope, I thought I should be getting close.

Yesterday before I managed to get the string o leds to light I tried several times to light the fluoro tube, and it kept getting a hot spot just to the side of middle of the tube. This makes me think I am getting close to a light. I want to push it more today.
---
I have another question for you.

The other day you said something that made me think you were saying the amps draw from the battery couldn't come out through the secondary. I don't see why not. Do you remember what you were saying? I can find it if you don't. I have been mulling this over for a few days and now the quote is buried.

Is that the reason you are connecting directly to the pos on this?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 21, 2009, 01:19:01 PM

@xee
Here is that statement you made:

Quote
Quotefrom: jeanna on May 17, 2009, 11:30:01 AM

As I understand this to call a lightbulb 4 watts means that at 120 volts it draws 33.4mA and so V x A= W therefore 4 watts.

Yes. But it will only be 4 watts if both 120 volts and 33 ma are available. If 120 volts is available but only 10 ma is available, then the tube will only be using 120 X 0.01 = 1.2 watts. In the JT the output can have 120 volts but not also 30 ma and so it can not light the tube to its full brightness.

Actually, in the JT we are not using the tube the same as if it were in a light fixture. We are using it more like a neon tube.

In the battery many more than 33mA are available.
Why, if they can be drawn from the battery to do some work, can they not be drawn to do some more?

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 21, 2009, 01:35:52 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on May 21, 2009, 01:02:02 PM
I have some 47uF caps. If I put them in parallel in the battery rail won't I get the same thing you have in your 100uF in your battery rail? (less a few, obviously)
I also have a few of those fuji caps. Is that what you are using in your battery rail?

Yes two 47 uF in paralle is 94 uF. But the battery cap value us not very important since it has little effect on circuit. I am just using what I had handy. Fuji caps will work.

Quote from: jeanna on May 21, 2009, 01:02:02 PM
I am getting 260 to 370 v as shown on the scope, I thought I should be getting close.

It takes about 400 volts to light the 4 watt tube. I suggest you test your circuits using the neon until you are able to get 400 volts.

Quote from: jeanna on May 21, 2009, 01:02:02 PM
I have another question for you.

The other day you said something that made me think you were saying the amps draw from the battery couldn't come out through the secondary. I don't see why not. Do you remember what you were saying? I can find it if you don't. I have been mulling this over for a few days and now the quote is buried.

Is that the reason you are connecting directly to the pos on this?

No. I meant that when the battery energy is tranformed to a higher voltage at the same time (or as a result) the current is reduced. Look at basic transformer theory.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 21, 2009, 01:51:48 PM

@jeanna

An AA battery is able to produce about 1 watt of energy. Watts = amps x volts. So if you had a 100% efficient converter you could convert the 1 watt from the battery into 1000 volts @ 1 ma, or convert it into 10 amps @ 0.1 volts, or any combination of amps and volts that equals 1 watt. The JT is a voltage converter.

The watts coming from the secondary can not exceed the watts coming from the battery. So if the battery is producing 50 ma at 1.0 volt then it is producing 0.05 watts and therefore the pickup coil can not deliver more than 0.05 watts. That 0.05 watts can be any combination of amps and volts as long as the product is less than 0.05 watts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 21, 2009, 02:31:33 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 21, 2009, 01:51:48 PM

An AA battery is able to produce about 1 watt of energy. Watts = amps x volts. So if you had a 100% efficient converter you could convert the 1 watt from the battery into 1000 volts @ 1 ma, or convert it into 10 amps @ 0.1 volts, or any combination of amps and volts that equals 1 watt. The JT is a voltage converter.

Here is a very stupid question but I really would like to know. If you go over 1000v and 1ma on the JT circuit from one AA would it be over 100% efficient?

Thank you!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 21, 2009, 02:33:56 PM

Quote from: xee2

It takes about 400 volts to light the 4 watt tube. I suggest you test your circuits using the neon until you are able to get 400 volts.

Ah, I am close.
I just put a 33ohm resistor at the t-base and the scopr says I have
475 Volts at
14.5KHz

My tube is 7 volts. so I will see if my hardware store has any new 4 watt arrivals.

The other thing I just noticed is that the neon goes on only one side at a time. I have taken out all the diodes etc that would give the ckt a polarity and I guess it is down to the unbalanced primary.

thanks for your help.

QuoteNo. I meant that when the battery energy is tranformed to a higher voltage at the same time (or as a result) the current is reduced. Look at basic transformer theory.

QuoteAn AA battery is able to produce about 1 watt of energy.

I see. O.K.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 21, 2009, 02:50:04 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on May 21, 2009, 02:33:56 PM
The other thing I just noticed is that the neon goes on only one side at a time. I have taken out all the diodes etc that would give the ckt a polarity and I guess it is down to the unbalanced primary.

I think only the positive side of the neon glows. Not sure, but they are used to check polarity of charge by which side lights up.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 21, 2009, 02:54:21 PM

@ altrez

Quote from: altrez on May 21, 2009, 02:31:33 PM
Here is a very stupid question but I really would like to know. If you go over 1000v and

It would only be more than 100% efficient if the output watts was larger than the input watts. You would need to measure the input watts and output watts to see how efficient the circuit was.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 21, 2009, 03:06:13 PM

@xee2

Thank you for explaining that to me:)

@All

I am so very impressed with everyone's hard work. I have been focusing on lighting CFL's I have not accomplished this yet with my JT mod but I will soon. Would anyone happen to know how much voltage would be needed from a JT with a AA battery to light a CFL at full brightness?

I have a 25kV DC power supply that seems to do the trick but it runs off a 9volt battery.

Any ideas?

Thanks!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 21, 2009, 03:19:59 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 21, 2009, 02:33:56 PM
Ah, I am close.
I just put a 33ohm resistor at the t-base and the scopr says I have
475 Volts at
14.5KHz

My tube is 7 volts. so I will see if my hardware store has any new 4 watt arrivals.

The other thing I just noticed is that the neon goes on only one side at a time. I have taken out all the diodes etc that would give the ckt a polarity and I guess it is down to the unbalanced primary.

thanks for your help.

I see. O.K.

jeanna

hey jenna if these are AC neons like the ones i think they are used to check for AC current then they will light the other side when current flows the other direction, or in the case of AC both will light.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 21, 2009, 04:03:31 PM

currently im playing with 2 electrodes outside for a earth battery that is generating 0.8v at 3mah now i thought this would be sufficient to even partially light the joule thief im working with but apparently im not using the right configuration because im unable to get it to work. ill have to tweak it. im going to try and see how far i can push these ground electrodes just for giggles :)

if anyone has some suggestions to try with ground electrodes at 0.8v and 3mah speak now. if i have the parts ill most likely try it.

one experiment i want to try is finding a way to oscilate it for a knock off of the tesla radiant oscilator.

something else im curious about is possibly testing a tesla pancake coil from it just to see what the results are.

let me know

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 21, 2009, 05:53:09 PM

@ altrez

I meant to add that it is not a stupid question, but somehow that got left out.

So far I am only producing about 1500 volts with JT and tube is definitely not full brightness yet.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 21, 2009, 06:19:07 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 21, 2009, 05:53:09 PM
@ altrez

I meant to add that it is not a stupid question, but somehow that got left out.

So far I am only producing about 1500 volts with JT and tube is definitely not full brightness yet.

Xee2:

OK, I have another stupid question for you. (I know his question was not stupid, but mine is, ha ha)

I have a catalog where I can buy a stun gun (about $70.00) that puts out 1.5 million volts. (ouch) It is powered by a nine volt battery. Now, whatever transformer they have in that thing must have a hell of a secondary, and I was wondering if one were to take it apart and supply voltage like from an AA battery....what would happen?
Would it be linear to the supply voltage or power? Like: 9/1.5 volts =6. So would the 1.5 million volt output now be 1/6 of the 1.5 million volts? (250,000 volts) If so, this would be one hell of an output and may run several cfl's or tubes and may even blow some up.

Maybe whatever losses are inherent in that transformer would be exaggerated at the lesser input voltage so it might not be a full 1/6 of the 1.5 million?

I have been thinking about this ever since I saw it in a catalog a few weeks ago. Just imagine if this would run off my EB and even if I only got (only, ha ha) 100,000 volts, that would still put on quite a light show. What do you think?

Thanks.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 21, 2009, 06:37:33 PM

@ Pirate88179

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 21, 2009, 06:19:07 PM
I have a catalog where I can buy a stun gun (about $70.00) that puts out 1.5 million volts.

And I have seen adds for gadgets that will let you get 1000 mpg. Before sending money I suggest you find out how they are testing to prove they have that voltage. I think it is a scam. I think that would be about a 4 foot spark in air.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 21, 2009, 07:12:35 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on May 21, 2009, 04:03:31 PM
currently im playing with 2 electrodes outside for a earth battery that is generating 0.8v at 3mah now i thought this would be sufficient to even partially light the joule thief im working with but apparently im not using the right configuration because im unable to get it to work. ill have to tweak it. im going to try and see how far i can push these ground electrodes just for giggles :)
...

Hi AK,
You are pretty much at the keel over place for even a joule thief. My batteries are pronounced dead by most things at less than 1.2 With a joule thief I can only see the smallest speck of light at 0.85v. (I think, it has been so long since I have used the BJT place for the light...)

First, I would suggest that you take that joule thief and tonight overnight run a AAA battery completely down with it and measure what the battery voltage is in the morning or when the light is out. That should tell you the low end for your set up.

What is your transistor? 2N3904 and 2N2222, are fast but gadget has some germanium kind which turns on a 0.3V. The more switches the more the jt works so the quickest changer at the lowest input volts wins.

The uneven primary with usually 2-3 turns going to the base and 2-5 turns to the collector is often better than any more. (it depends on the ferrite toroid here) This gives the transformer action of the secondary a greater advantage or a greater output voltage per secondary turn.

Are you using a cap in parallel with the EB leads? That is probably essential, at least where the EB volts are low. (remember Bill's picture of the led on the tree stump? that was with a supercap in parallel.

@xee,
Thank you for all that information. And-that interesting bit about the neon only glowing at one side.
I was playing around with it today and noticed that it will turn on with only one secondary lead under certain circumstances.

I am not sure of all of them, sometimes all I seem to need is to have the other lead pointing toward the neon and other times that does not work.

I can reliably get it to light with one lead if I am holding the other lead and touch my hand with the free lead. It must be using skin effect to connect.
The other time it lit was when I clipped the one lead and not the other lead but touched the lamp glass then either held the secondary near my hand that was touching the glass or when that wasn't enough touched that secondary lead to my skin.

One time and I think it was the last example, I thought both leads went on, but it is hard to see at some angles. I still have left the 33kohm resistor in there. It is amazing that this with the 33k ohm resistor lights fine, but the fuji cam neons don't.

@Altrez, welcome back.
Me either. I got 475volts today and no fluoro tube. I think Ms destructo needs to come over again and take apart a little cfl, maybe they are easier to start...

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 21, 2009, 07:29:31 PM

Just got a batch of new TOPHAT flood leds . 115kmcd / Here is My light amplifier . Its a chunk acrylic .9 X16 inches the first one is with one led stuck in a hole drilled and the second is the other side with another tophat . Its Bright and can be a tabletop Light . Two leds and lights Up very bright . Its amazing how acrylic carries the light to every corner
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 21, 2009, 07:35:07 PM

Hey pirate why did the pics show up as attachments ??
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 21, 2009, 07:40:30 PM

@AK,
If what you say is true about the neons showing ac when both sides light then the hand held thing is ac. I just checked it and it lights both sides when I clip it and touch the glass.

Sometimes the light stays lit when I drop the wire and it seems I only need to touch my hand once and the charge will continue until I let go. How cool is this!

But I am not sure about the ac. I touched the glass on only one side and that one side lit then moved to the other and only that side lit.

@Gadget. I only get a notice from the site that an error has occurred when I poke your new acrylic tophat pics.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 21, 2009, 07:42:31 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 21, 2009, 07:40:30 PM
@AK,
If what you say is true about the neons showing ac when both sides light then the hand held thing is ac. I just checked it and it lights both sides when I clip it and touch the glass.

Sometimes the light stays lit when I drop the wire and it seems I only need to touch my hand once and the charge will continue until I let go. How cool is this!

But I am not sure about the ac. I touched the glass on only one side and that one side lit then moved to the other and only that side lit.

@Gadget. I only get a notice from the site that an error has occurred when I poke your new acrylic tophat pics.

jeanna

Yes i just looked back at all our picture and they are all attachments now . no pics . just links Is anybody else having the same problem seeing pictures posted ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 21, 2009, 07:44:14 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on May 21, 2009, 07:12:35 PM
I got 475volts today and no fluoro tube. I think Ms destructo needs to come over again and take apart a little cfl, maybe they are easier to start...

475 V, you must be really close to lighting the fluorescent tube. Does it glow just a little in the dark? Home depot should have the 4 watt tubes and maybe they will have the 1.6 watt tubes also.

I hope you are having fun with the neon. Yes it is both skin effect and capacitive coupling.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 21, 2009, 08:01:09 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 21, 2009, 07:40:30 PM
@AK,
If what you say is true about the neons showing ac when both sides light then the hand held thing is ac. I just checked it and it lights both sides when I clip it and touch the glass.

Sometimes the light stays lit when I drop the wire and it seems I only need to touch my hand once and the charge will continue until I let go. How cool is this!

But I am not sure about the ac. I touched the glass on only one side and that one side lit then moved to the other and only that side lit.

@Gadget. I only get a notice from the site that an error has occurred when I poke your new acrylic tophat pics.

jeanna

Thanks Jeanna . They were Bright > its a Forum Problem i think . Nice Output but no light ?? Chop a dollar cfl up and it will . I went back several pages and all the pics are gone and they say An Error Has Occurred!
You do not have permission to approve items.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 21, 2009, 08:30:20 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 21, 2009, 06:37:33 PM
@ Pirate88179

And I have seen adds for gadgets that will let you get 1000 mpg. Before sending money I suggest you find out how they are testing to prove they have that voltage. I think it is a scam. I think that would be about a 4 foot spark in air.

There is dozens of companies that are advertising these kinds of claims so I think you would need to talk to someone from the company to see how they are measuring the voltage!

P.S. I have thought about the same thing Pirate!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 21, 2009, 08:35:03 PM

Right and the name they come in as is

index.php.html

and then when you open it it is a html of OU and the message says an error has occurred.
The site was down earlier to be fixed, maybe the fix goofed?

I had an odd thing happen today. I rightclicked to download a pic and my computer, as it does, offered me the last place where I had downloaded something from the browser and it offered me the "downloads" folder.

I NEVER use that folder because I think it is dangerous and besides I can use whatever I want. However, it IS where the default MSWindows place is to download something.

How my computer thought the last place I had downloaded something from the browser was there, is a mystery. I looked and there was nothing there that should not be there. I sure am glad my OS something other than microsoft, however.

Maybe I will open the debian computer tonight just to be safe. eesh this is a bother.

Maybe everybody should run whatever checker they have.

@Gadget
CFL didn't light. 11w black at the ends. phillips.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 21, 2009, 08:46:11 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 21, 2009, 06:37:33 PM
@ Pirate88179

And I have seen adds for gadgets that will let you get 1000 mpg. Before sending money I suggest you find out how they are testing to prove they have that voltage. I think it is a scam. I think that would be about a 4 foot spark in air.

It was in a Police supply catalog so I doubt that it is a scam. Most of the other ones are 900,000 volts and they are much smaller units in physical size. In thinking about while driving back from a job I just did, I would guess we have to factor the total power not just the volts. So, I would have to see what power a 9 volts has and then see what power an AA has, and then maybe extrapolate what the output on the transformer might be. Does this sound more correct?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 21, 2009, 08:56:47 PM

Gadget:

I got the same "you do not have permission to...." when I tried looking at your pics. I have no idea what is going on. If the other pics of the past also do this than, Stefan must have accidentally changed something somewhere. I am sure others are seeing this and he will be aware of it soon.

Articknight:

What is the alignment of your electrodes and what are you using? This appears to make all of the difference. Al says the ones he is selling get about 2 volts and, I don't recall the mA's but I think like 9 or so. I am at 1.95 volts and around 9 mA's as well. Jeanna is correct, you really need a supercap in parallel with the EB. I accidentally did this a while back in the very beginning not even knowing what I was doing (not that I do now, ha ha) and it lit an led without a jt circuit. So, with a JT circuit, you should be able to light multiple leds. Let me know if I can help.

BIll

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 21, 2009, 09:18:31 PM

@ Bill

1.5 million volt tesla coil. Notice how long the sparks are.

http://www.thegleam.com/ke5fx/tesla.html

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 21, 2009, 09:31:16 PM

Holly Crap!! That would look great in my garden!!! Gee, did you notice it looked like he "borrowed" a transformer from a local power company pole?

How else could they be measuring the volts? (On the stun gun) As I said, this is a Police supply catalog that you have to be in law enforcement (or Investigations) to receive. I mean, other than fraud, is there another "standard" someone could be using here to measure voltage? I never heard of one.

Of course, the ad did say this works from a good distance but, I don't think they meant like that Tesla coil, ha ha. Can you imagine that? Some guy tries to rob you and you fire up something like that Tesla coil was putting out? I believe he would need a change of shorts.

I am pretty sure it does not do that though.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 21, 2009, 09:32:51 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 21, 2009, 09:18:31 PM
@ Bill

1.5 million volt tesla coil. Notice how long the sparks are.

http://www.thegleam.com/ke5fx/tesla.html

Bill i got one at the flea market . its rechargeable has a safety a bright light and is rechargeable 50,000 volts for 10 dollars new ! Very Nice . I would post a pic of it but it wont show it . Its 2/3 inch wide X 6 inches lonf and 1/2 in thick !

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 21, 2009, 10:16:49 PM

@jeanna

Hey :) I never left, it's just that I work 60 hours a week have two kids 4 cell phones a wife 2 cars house pets and all the bills that come along with that. So needless to say I can spend make 4 hours a week working on projects If I am lucky!

I still haven't even took my Scope out of the box!

Take Care,

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on May 21, 2009, 10:28:46 PM

Got some test numbers on the new toroids I picked up. See my previous posts for details on the toroids..

10t-10t-50t 290ma input 265v output (Not very good volts for input power ???)

10t-10t-100t 250ma input 350v output (Much better, doubling the pickup turns helped ;D)

Decided to drop the Base turns to increase volts. Amp draw went down a little too :).
9t-10t-100t 245ma input 380v output
8t-10t-100t 240ma input 410v output
7t-10t-100t 235ma input 440v output
6t-10t-100t 230ma input 470v output
5t-10t-100t 225ma input 500v output
4t-10t-100t 220ma input 525v output
3t-10t-100t 220ma input 530v output (Best output so far 8))
2t-10t-100t 220ma input 500v output

Decided to increase the Collector turns to see what happens.
3t-11t-100t 215ma input 550v output
3t-12t-100t 210ma input 560v output
3t-13t-100t 205ma input 580v output
3t-14t-100t 200ma input 590v output
3t-15t-100t 195ma input 600v output (Best setup using 100 Pickup turns)
3t-16t-100t 195ma input 590v output

Using 3t-15t-100t turned out pretty good. I'll take some pics and try some lights tomorrow. I can fit up to 135 turns of 26ga if I take all 360Â° of the toroid. I plan on winding a 2 layer Pickup coil with about 220-240 turns. I should be able to break 1000v on this toroid. Doing rough math, the amp draw should drop to 100ma-150ma with an output of 1000v. Wish me luck ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 21, 2009, 10:32:04 PM

@Pirate88179

I had a similar idea about a Stun Gun so I got a 900.000 Volt SG from a place here in town. And took it apart! It has a huge plastic block with two wires coming out for the StunGun part. And it has a smaller Transformer as well. I am not sure what it does.

I am going to try and get it to fire with 1 AA tomorrow after the kids go to there grandparents.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 21, 2009, 11:16:43 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 21, 2009, 07:12:35 PM
Hi AK,
You are pretty much at the keel over place for even a joule thief. My batteries are pronounced dead by most things at less than 1.2 With a joule thief I can only see the smallest speck of light at 0.85v. (I think, it has been so long since I have used the BJT place for the light...)

First, I would suggest that you take that joule thief and tonight overnight run a AAA battery completely down with it and measure what the battery voltage is in the morning or when the light is out. That should tell you the low end for your set up.

What is your transistor? 2N3904 and 2N2222, are fast but gadget has some germanium kind which turns on a 0.3V. The more switches the more the jt works so the quickest changer at the lowest input volts wins.

The uneven primary with usually 2-3 turns going to the base and 2-5 turns to the collector is often better than any more. (it depends on the ferrite toroid here) This gives the transformer action of the secondary a greater advantage or a greater output voltage per secondary turn.

Are you using a cap in parallel with the EB leads? That is probably essential, at least where the EB volts are low. (remember Bill's picture of the led on the tree stump? that was with a supercap in parallel.

@xee,
Thank you for all that information. And-that interesting bit about the neon only glowing at one side.
I was playing around with it today and noticed that it will turn on with only one secondary lead under certain circumstances.

I am not sure of all of them, sometimes all I seem to need is to have the other lead pointing toward the neon and other times that does not work.

I can reliably get it to light with one lead if I am holding the other lead and touch my hand with the free lead. It must be using skin effect to connect.
The other time it lit was when I clipped the one lead and not the other lead but touched the lamp glass then either held the secondary near my hand that was touching the glass or when that wasn't enough touched that secondary lead to my skin.

One time and I think it was the last example, I thought both leads went on, but it is hard to see at some angles. I still have left the 33kohm resistor in there. It is amazing that this with the 33k ohm resistor lights fine, but the fuji cam neons don't.

@Altrez, welcome back.
Me either. I got 475volts today and no fluoro tube. I think Ms destructo needs to come over again and take apart a little cfl, maybe they are easier to start...

jeanna

jenna thanks for the words of wisdom for the joule thief. i can measure the ma it requires to use, the issue is either get better electrodes ( i wont do that as i chose these for a reason) or configure the joule thief for lower input. i vote for the latter.

i still have some tricks left to use, you and some of the others have had good work with the different number of turns. and there are different capacitors i could use to get it done. im confident i can get the mah down to the requirements :) ill just pull from the resources here.

thanks for the advice, i will use it and see what can be done :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 21, 2009, 11:30:00 PM

@Hazens1,
Those are good and useful tests you did.

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 21, 2009, 11:31:30 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 21, 2009, 07:40:30 PM
@AK,
If what you say is true about the neons showing ac when both sides light then the hand held thing is ac. I just checked it and it lights both sides when I clip it and touch the glass.

Sometimes the light stays lit when I drop the wire and it seems I only need to touch my hand once and the charge will continue until I let go. How cool is this!

But I am not sure about the ac. I touched the glass on only one side and that one side lit then moved to the other and only that side lit.

@Gadget. I only get a notice from the site that an error has occurred when I poke your new acrylic tophat pics.

jeanna

im sure you have heard some about wireless transmission on this forum, that sounds like what your doing. sorry im a little out of my mind (drunk) at the moment, but from what i have seen in these neons electricity wants to flow in one direction for one part lit and flow in the other direction to light the other. if you can accomplish that (ac does and grounding could as well) then you would be able to light the entire neon.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: LightRider on May 21, 2009, 11:35:50 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 21, 2009, 08:01:09 PM
Thanks Jeanna . They were Bright > its a Forum Problem i think . Nice Output but no light ?? Chop a dollar cfl up and it will . I went back several pages and all the pics are gone and they say An Error Has Occurred!
You do not have permission to approve items.

Quote from: LightRider on May 21, 2009, 10:24:21 PM
A little help would be appreciated...
I mess up something...
now, i can't see post image anymore, I just see:

sale.jpg (51.33 KB, 621x398 - viewed 220 times.)

and if i click it i get the error page:

An Error Has Occurred!
You do not have permission to approve items.

Thanks,
LightRider

(Sorry to be off topic)

Same thing here... ?! ???

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 22, 2009, 12:38:47 AM

@ hazens1

Great data, thanks. It looks like your transistor is reaching its Vceo breakdown at the upper collector turns. I think you may need a transistor with higher Vceo or a larger base resistor. The collector voltage spike increases with number of collector turns so there is an upper limit to the number of turns at a given base current level.

600 volts for a 100 turn pickup coil seems good to me. It looks like you should not have any problem getting 1000 volts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 22, 2009, 12:46:31 AM

Al:

I would like to order that supercap if you have any left. E-mail me and tell me what I need to do. Thanks.

$10.00 for a stun gun? Wow! That is a deal! I'm shocked! (sorry)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 22, 2009, 01:33:50 AM

here is the results of my tests and the successes.

i lit the led at a guesstimated full brightness with 1-120kh variable in parallel with a 2200uf cap however the negative was on base, this created a blinking effect which the frequency was controlable by the resistance. i switched the cap to a 10uf cap and the blinking effect was eliminated however now the resistance was controling the brightness and the cap was positive to base. i attatched the 2200uf cap in parellel with the battery to get a 2mah reduction in draw and was able to reduce the total mah draw to 2.5 while maintaining a guesstimated half brightness on the led. essentially i followed the following diagram however the resistor to base was variable the pos terminal of the base cap was facing base at 10uf and the cap in parallel with battery was 2200uf. the turns on the torriod was not counted however its guesstimated at 14 turns primary and possibly 60 secondary. the secondary was connected to the collector and the primary to base. the values of the led and ferrite are unknown and salvaged.

i believe the mah can be maintained while increasing the freq and brightness of the led. this will be tested later.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 22, 2009, 01:43:03 AM

@ Artic_Knight

Thanks for the test data. I am looking forward to seeing your images when the server gets straightened out and will show images again.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on May 22, 2009, 01:43:52 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 22, 2009, 12:46:31 AM
$10.00 for a stun gun? Wow! That is a deal! I'm shocked! (sorry)

LOL your well timed humor is sometimes the only thing that keeps me at this site. thanks bill ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 22, 2009, 02:08:33 AM

@ Wilby:

Thank you. I appreciate that. It is just too bad sometimes (maybe most?) that I am not as funny as I think I am, but I do try.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on May 22, 2009, 09:56:24 AM

I can see pictures now, but for some reason I cannot post any PMs.

@Gadget
You sent me a PM, but I am unable to reply. The source of the new toroids I picked up is here: http://www.surplussales.com/Inductors/FerToro/FerToro-3.html (http://www.surplussales.com/Inductors/FerToro/FerToro-3.html)

(ICH) 58548A2-2
Magnetics ferrite toroid core, high flux mpp cored. Permeability = 125, AL = 127.
1.3" (33mm) O.D. x 0.785" (19.9mm) x 0.42" (10.7mm).

They are $2.75 a piece and the site has a $10 minimum total order. I can't quote any shipping or delivery times since I picked mine up at the distributor's office. I ordered over the phone and they had my order ready for pickup the next morning.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 22, 2009, 10:19:18 AM

@Gadget

There is a PDF data sheet also.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 22, 2009, 10:46:47 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 22, 2009, 12:46:31 AM
Al:

I would like to order that supercap if you have any left. E-mail me and tell me what I need to do. Thanks.

$10.00 for a stun gun? Wow! That is a deal! I'm shocked! (sorry)

Bill

ok sending you an email . thanks

Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on May 22, 2009, 11:01:57 AM

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 22, 2009, 11:11:14 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 21, 2009, 08:56:47 PM

Articknight:

What is the alignment of your electrodes and what are you using? This appears to make all of the difference. Al says the ones he is selling get about 2 volts and, I don't recall the mA's but I think like 9 or so. I am at 1.95 volts and around 9 mA's as well. Jeanna is correct, you really need a supercap in parallel with the EB. I accidentally did this a while back in the very beginning not even knowing what I was doing (not that I do now, ha ha) and it lit an led without a jt circuit. So, with a JT circuit, you should be able to light multiple leds. Let me know if I can help.

BIll

Thats some great results ;D Did you order fron gadget?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 22, 2009, 11:12:32 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on May 22, 2009, 11:01:57 AM
JUST INCASE ANYONE CARES.... LOL

ALL GOES BOTH WAYS ...

WHY DO YOU WANT TO MESS WITH A STUNGUN ????

YOU ALREADY HAVE ONE ;)

IST!

JUST 4 U GADGET!!! ;D

PUT 2 HIFREQ DIODES ON THE PRONGS .... LOL :D

FIND A BIG CAP :D THEN PULSE IT SLOWLY LOL

NOW YOU ALL HAVE MY TIME DIFFRENCIAL DEVICE
THERE 3 TIME DELAYS ...

FIRST IN THE STUN GUN .... SECOND PULSED POWER ON THE STUN GUN 3RD CAP DISCHARGED TO IRON CORE... TRY A MOT... ;)

Im going to make an Electrolizer out of it for hho

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 22, 2009, 11:17:42 AM

Quote from: hazens1 on May 21, 2009, 10:28:46 PM
Got some test numbers on the new toroids I picked up. See my previous posts for details on the toroids..

10t-10t-50t 290ma input 265v output (Not very good volts for input power ???)

10t-10t-100t 250ma input 350v output (Much better, doubling the pickup turns helped ;D)

Decided to drop the Base turns to increase volts. Amp draw went down a little too :).
9t-10t-100t 245ma input 380v output
8t-10t-100t 240ma input 410v output
7t-10t-100t 235ma input 440v output
6t-10t-100t 230ma input 470v output
5t-10t-100t 225ma input 500v output
4t-10t-100t 220ma input 525v output
3t-10t-100t 220ma input 530v output (Best output so far 8))
2t-10t-100t 220ma input 500v output

Decided to increase the Collector turns to see what happens.
3t-11t-100t 215ma input 550v output
3t-12t-100t 210ma input 560v output
3t-13t-100t 205ma input 580v output
3t-14t-100t 200ma input 590v output
3t-15t-100t 195ma input 600v output (Best setup using 100 Pickup turns)
3t-16t-100t 195ma input 590v output

Using 3t-15t-100t turned out pretty good. I'll take some pics and try some lights tomorrow. I can fit up to 135 turns of 26ga if I take all 360Â° of the toroid. I plan on winding a 2 layer Pickup coil with about 220-240 turns. I should be able to break 1000v on this toroid. Doing rough math, the amp draw should drop to 100ma-150ma with an output of 1000v. Wish me luck ;)

Excelent results and thank you for posting. Just so I'm understanding you correctly. These are 1 layer thick (from one side to the other side, that's it! right?)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on May 22, 2009, 11:23:07 AM

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 22, 2009, 12:54:40 PM

Quote from: stprue on May 22, 2009, 11:11:14 AM
Thats some great results ;D Did you order fron gadget?

No, that was almost 2 years ago. I didn't know Al back then. i was just attempting to point out how important the alignment of the electrodes can be to the output levels. We learned this on the EB topics a while back through a lot of experimentation.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 22, 2009, 01:51:58 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 22, 2009, 12:54:40 PM
No, that was almost 2 years ago. I didn't know Al back then. i was just attempting to point out how important the alignment of the electrodes can be to the output levels. We learned this on the EB topics a while back through a lot of experimentation.

Bill

When I have enough $$ for the EB kit I will need to look into this and probably ask you lots of questions.

Thanks...Stew

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on May 22, 2009, 03:37:27 PM

Quote from: stprue on May 22, 2009, 11:17:42 AM
Excelent results and thank you for posting. Just so I'm understanding you correctly. These are 1 layer thick (from one side to the other side, that's it! right?)

Yes, 1 layer thick so far.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 22, 2009, 04:17:03 PM

@ jeanna

Try increasing your collector coil turns. This circuit will light a 20 watt tube. You may need to reverse the polarity of the pickup coil, I am not sure what it is.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 22, 2009, 06:59:16 PM

Hi xee,

There is no room on the MK1 with the 3T4T92T that lit the neon yesterday.

I have been messing around with the biggo today. I actually had some results and it was partly from adding more turns to the collector... but not too many turns.

I am not sure the biggo is very high flux still, but I did get it to work. The turns are
2TB, 10C,240T
150ohm Base resistor
from (between] the secondary wires:
246V
4.76kHz
It lit the neon (yeay :D )

When the C had 15T or 20T the voltage was the battery. There must have been no oscillation and the transistor got hot so it was full on, but my guess is it didn't go off ever.

There were many ways that this core produced less than 50v and even as stated 1.2v. It seems finiky.
No fluoro yet. I stopped this post to try your circuit, but no go. I wonder if there is some way to push a little extra voltage to start it up.

I think I got farther than anyone else on the AAA fuji because when I asked for help no one came forward, if I remember right. I remember that I could get the light to go on if I did something that involved the upper wires where the cap was.

@Gadget, you put a special switch on your fuji cfl mod for when the battery was getting low. Is there a loop here. It seems similar to what xee just had on his circuit today.

I had to order some stuff yesterday and I remembered a tip31c so I can try that next week.

thanks,

jeanna

Edit:
It occurs to me that I have been tuning my cores thinking I am tuning them to the ferrite only but I am also probably tuning them to the transistor.
Maybe the tip31c will be able to handle more collector turns and maybe if it does, it will produce more voltage.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 22, 2009, 07:51:13 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on May 22, 2009, 06:59:16 PM
I am not sure the biggo is very high flux still, but I did get it to work. The turns are
2TB, 10C,240T
150ohm Base resistor
from (between] the secondary wires:
246V
4.76kHz
It lit the neon (yeay :D )

Seems like progress to me. You can try using 3 volt battery. Also, if there is no oscillation with more turns on the collector coil you may need to increase the base resistor value. Sorry you are having so much trouble.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 22, 2009, 08:40:47 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 22, 2009, 07:51:13 PM
@ jeanna

Seems like progress to me. You can try using 3 volt battery. Also, if there is no oscillation with more turns on the collector coil you may need to increase the base resistor value.

Yes, progress it is.
3 volt, probably, but I would need a gold bar in the EB to get that much from the ground... (too pricy if you know what I mean! ;) ).

hmm increase base resistor value. I will try that too.

QuoteSorry you are having so much trouble.

It doesn't feel like trouble when I am learning and moving forward with the learning!

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 22, 2009, 09:59:29 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 22, 2009, 06:59:16 PM
Hi xee,

There is no room on the MK1 with the 3T4T92T that lit the neon yesterday.

I have been messing around with the biggo today. I actually had some results and it was partly from adding more turns to the collector... but not too many turns.

I am not sure the biggo is very high flux still, but I did get it to work. The turns are
2TB, 10C,240T
150ohm Base resistor
from (between] the secondary wires:
246V
4.76kHz
It lit the neon (yeay :D )

When the C had 15T or 20T the voltage was the battery. There must have been no oscillation and the transistor got hot so it was full on, but my guess is it didn't go off ever.

There were many ways that this core produced less than 50v and even as stated 1.2v. It seems finiky.
No fluoro yet. I stopped this post to try your circuit, but no go. I wonder if there is some way to push a little extra voltage to start it up.

I think I got farther than anyone else on the AAA fuji because when I asked for help no one came forward, if I remember right. I remember that I could get the light to go on if I did something that involved the upper wires where the cap was.

@Gadget, you put a special switch on your fuji cfl mod for when the battery was getting low. Is there a loop here. It seems similar to what xee just had on his circuit today.

I had to order some stuff yesterday and I remembered a tip31c so I can try that next week.

thanks,

jeanna

Edit:
It occurs to me that I have been tuning my cores thinking I am tuning them to the ferrite only but I am also probably tuning them to the transistor.
Maybe the tip31c will be able to handle more collector turns and maybe if it does, it will produce more voltage.

Hi jeanna . My kick switch in parallel to the resistor also you will get way better volts from adifferent transistor ie tqp31c or even 2n3055 . you can run a2n3055 with very low volts but some of the jap knock offs are suckish and wont oscillate below 1.6 volts others like mine will go down to 0.6 volts
gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 22, 2009, 10:44:15 PM

@all

I have tested my 900kV stun gun on a 48inch tube and it works! Its only about 1/8 of normal brightness. This brings me to my next question. If in fact the stungun's transformer is producing 900kV what hope do we have of ever lighting a 48" tube with a JT to full brightness?

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 22, 2009, 10:54:27 PM

Quote from: altrez on May 22, 2009, 10:44:15 PM
I have tested my 900kV stun gun on a 48inch tube and it works! Its only about 1/8 of normal brightness. This brings me to my next question. If in fact the stungun's transformer is producing 900kV what hope do we have of ever lighting a 48" tube with a JT to full brightness?

it probably does, without a load.

same thing happen with tv flyback transformers.
they are ~35kV, but under a "short" conditions the voltage drop drastically.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 22, 2009, 11:07:35 PM

@TheNOP

Thank you for the insight. I did not stop to think about that!

Thanks!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 22, 2009, 11:10:08 PM

Quote from: altrez on May 22, 2009, 10:44:15 PM
@all

I have tested my 900kV stun gun on a 48inch tube and it works! Its only about 1/8 of normal brightness. This brings me to my next question. If in fact the stungun's transformer is producing 900kV what hope do we have of ever lighting a 48" tube with a JT to full brightness?

-Altrez

Hi . Its all about Frequency for a cold electricity Jt . We will get it with just a few milli amps ;)

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 22, 2009, 11:44:04 PM

Al:

I hope you are right. It does make sense to me about the "load" with the stun guns. I was hoping it was some super transformer like the Fuji only a lot more potent. Maybe it is not. Gee, like everything else we have done, if we want to know, we have to try it.

I can't wait for my 650 Farad supercap to arrive. Then, we will see what my EB/JT can really do. (Hopefully)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 23, 2009, 01:29:20 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 22, 2009, 11:44:04 PM
I hope you are right. It does make sense to me about the "load" with the stun guns. I was hoping it was some super transformer like the Fuji only a lot more potent. Maybe it is not. Gee, like everything else we have done, if we want to know, we have to try it.

the fuji are using a normal transformer while the stun guns are using an equivalent to a flyback transformer.

but regardless of the type of transformer, a load will change the output voltage.
it will be different from what you measure without a load.

take a diode and a resistors.
try 1k Ohms to start with.
connect them in series, then connect that to your jt's pickup coil.
measure the voltage across the resistor.
change the resistor for a higher value, 2k, then measure the voltage again.
try with a 100 Ohms.
with the 2k resistor the voltage will be higher.
with the 100 ohms it will be lower.

now try with a capacitor instead.
the voltage will go from low to high as the capacitor charge.
a fully charged capacitor is not a load, while an empty one is a full load.
the voltage will follow the charging curve of the capacitor.

take a 120 to 12 volts DC transformer, measure it output.
you will get more then the rated 12 volts when it is not under load.

the voltage drop are more drastic with flyback transformer, 35kv will usually drop to lower then 2kv.
it could even drop to as low as a few hundreds volts depending on the resistance of the "short circuit".

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 23, 2009, 01:41:29 AM

NOP:

Thank you. I just read something tonight that was very similar to what you are saying here. I think I am starting to understand.

Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 23, 2009, 02:11:35 AM

My glows arrived in the mail today. !!
I was on my way to a group and showed them off. Everyone in that group will be getting some, I think. Well, for 50 cents who can resist?

@gadget
I didn't have too much luck putting the cap in the base resistor spot. It seemed to lower the peak to peak voltage. I think it was that loop that you did somewhere, sort of like the schematic that xee posted today.

Somehow, I need to wrap my head around the fuji upper level section. I think that is the part I need to turn on the fluoro.

Maybe not. It may just be that I need to tune my coil to the 3055 transistor instead of the 3904. I am hoping that is the reason it does not turn on. It makes sense. I remember plopping a 2N2222 into a circuit that had been using a 3904 and it was terrible. Then the reverse happened. It never occurred to me til today that I am actually tuning to the transistor and not just the core.

We will see.

Thanks everybody,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 23, 2009, 02:19:17 AM

Jeanna:

How are those glows? Do they last a while and is there much light? I ordered my supercap from Gadget today and I am almost broke again but I want a bunch of these things if they work. Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 23, 2009, 02:21:03 AM

I do not know if anyone is interested, but here is a circuit that will light a 20 watt tube using only 80 ma from a AAA battery. It also lights a 4 watt tube as bright as the Fuji board but only needs 78 ma to do it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 23, 2009, 02:32:22 AM

Xee2:

Of course we are interested. Great job! And this from a AAA battery?

nice work.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 23, 2009, 02:34:59 AM

Yes, anyone is interested!

You are on a roll!
It might help a tiny bit to say what each new pic is doing from the last one. I usually make a copy of them, so I have the drawing. When I get any fluoro to light, which I haven't done yet, I will want to try all these variations.

thanks for the inspiration and thanks for posting your pics,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 23, 2009, 02:41:47 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 23, 2009, 02:19:17 AM
Jeanna:

How are those glows? Do they last a while and is there much light? I ordered my supercap from Gadget today and I am almost broke again but I want a bunch of these things if they work. Thanks.

Bill

I could see they were bright from the start, but after I got home and really charged them for 15 minutes under a 15W cfl here by my computer, they give off a lot of light. Enough to reflect off the wall behind them. I will give a daylight charge tomorrow, and see.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 23, 2009, 03:14:28 AM

Thanks Jeanna. Did you get those from Gadget's posted source or Xee2's source? Maybe they are all the same. Probably come from the same factory in China anyway. That is a good preliminary report, thank you.

Actually, I think the link gadget posted said $1ea and Xee2's link was 50 cents. So, I think I already have my answer. Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 23, 2009, 09:36:26 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 22, 2009, 11:44:04 PM
Al:

I hope you are right. It does make sense to me about the "load" with the stun guns. I was hoping it was some super transformer like the Fuji only a lot more potent. Maybe it is not. Gee, like everything else we have done, if we want to know, we have to try it.

I can't wait for my 650 Farad supercap to arrive. Then, we will see what my EB/JT can really do. (Hopefully)

Bill

You ordered it!!! NICE With that you will be lighting some ambiance lights in your residence.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 23, 2009, 09:43:34 AM

Quote from: xee2 on May 23, 2009, 02:21:03 AM
I do not know if anyone is interested, but here is a circuit that will light a 20 watt tube using only 80 ma from a AAA battery. It also lights a 4 watt tube as bright as the Fuji board but only needs 78 ma to do it.

That is some great work as usual. Xee is there any winding method you are using. I do not seem to see any if there is, which is pretty cool considering the performance. What type is wire are you using?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: mikem_2au on May 23, 2009, 11:13:56 AM

@xee2 I wanted to thank you for doing the
diagram, it looks good. i have been switching
between yours and the fuji circuit for a couple
of days now.
also, i'm using a MJE3055T rather than a TIP31C,
my 4watt tube is lighting a little brighter with it.

has anyone tried lighting a CCFL tube ?
i was thinking of getting a couple from ebay.
mike..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 23, 2009, 11:21:13 AM

Quote from: altrez on May 22, 2009, 10:44:15 PM
@all

I have tested my 900kV stun gun on a 48inch tube and it works! Its only about 1/8 of normal brightness. This brings me to my next question. If in fact the stungun's transformer is producing 900kV what hope do we have of ever lighting a 48" tube with a JT to full brightness?

-Altrez

frequency my friend frequency. do you by chance know of the frequency of the stun gun output?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Thaelin on May 23, 2009, 11:37:08 AM

Just a bit of theory here on my part. I have been watching from the back side for a long time as I felt that I had little to offer. The more I have seen, the more I keep coming up with the idea that the frequency is going to play a part in how well the tube will light up. With normal setup on FL's, it runs on 60hz. Does the length of the tube fall on one of the 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 or full for wave length. Do we need to find the right frequency so the nodes will make an exact fit for the length of the tube used? Just a thought on my part. At the moment I am still trying to get the circuit to light up anything at all. Did blow a transistor so far (3055).
Think I will setup a transistor with the gate to my signal gen and see what frequency will make the FL's I have fly.

thaelin

I have a few burnt out full spectrum tubes that I want to use here for back lighting. Just want to get the most out of them. I do intend to use 12v in the end but at very low ma so it will last a long time.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 23, 2009, 11:49:43 AM

@ stprue

Quote from: stprue on May 23, 2009, 09:43:34 AM
That is some great work as usual. Xee is there any winding method you are using. I do not seem to see any if there is, which is pretty cool considering the performance. What type is wire are you using?

Wire is smallest I can get that is plastic coated. Mostly 24, 28, and 30. Radio Shack has best wire in my opinion called "insulated wrapping wire" 30 gauge solid insulated but it doesn't seem to be available in more than 50 foot lengths. Winding is as shown - generally back and forth in solenoid layers. But not very neat.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 23, 2009, 11:58:26 AM

@ mikem_2au

I am not sure what a CCFL tube is. But there are several CFL tubes posted. Thanks for info on MJE3055T. Can you use paint to modify one of my circuits to show what you are doing?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 23, 2009, 12:00:52 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 23, 2009, 03:14:28 AM
Thanks Jeanna. Did you get those from Gadget's posted source or Xee2's source? Maybe they are all the same. Probably come from the same factory in China anyway. That is a good preliminary report, thank you.

Actually, I think the link gadget posted said $1ea and Xee2's link was 50 cents. So, I think I already have my answer. Thanks.

Bill

I got them from xee's posted source. um battery station, something.
I think gadget's link was to the manufacturer and I don't remember any price on that site, just a little information.
It also showed other products beyond the tiles. I like the idea of an acrylic sheet that can be cut to shape. (the crazy artist in me gets all excited about stuff like this.)

They are surprisingly bright with very little input.
It is very foggy this morning and I put a couple in the window for 15 - 30 minutes. I didn't even need to get into a dark room to see it brightly glow. In the window it looks a dull greenish color, then just to the side of the window the whole tile becomes a brilliant glow.

I think gadget and maybe ist should buy them to sell on their websites- they must be pretty cheap to be able to retail them for 50 cents.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 23, 2009, 12:03:08 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on May 23, 2009, 11:21:13 AM
frequency my friend frequency. do you by chance know of the frequency of the stun gun output?

Would you happen to know of a good way for me to find out? I have a few multimeter's and a Scope. I just do not want to fry my testing equipment trying to find out :)

Thanks!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 23, 2009, 12:06:55 PM

New low for me. 43 ma to light 20 watt tube. Data for TIP31C but 2N3055 gives similar results using a 2K base resistor instead of 1K.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 23, 2009, 12:09:57 PM

Quote from: Thaelin on May 23, 2009, 11:37:08 AM
...
the idea that the frequency is going to play a part in how well the tube will light up. With normal setup on FL's, it runs on 60hz. Does the length of the tube fall on one of the 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 or full for wave length. Do we need to find the right frequency so the nodes will make an exact fit for the length of the tube used? ....

Think I will setup a transistor with the gate to my signal gen and see what frequency will make the FL's I have fly.

I look forward to seeing the results of this test. It is possibly one very important link here.

I remember in december (!) the 7 watt tube was decidedly harder to get to light than the 15 watt tube. I was using the fuji then.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 23, 2009, 12:16:40 PM

Quote from: altrez on May 23, 2009, 12:03:08 PM
Would you happen to know of a good way for me to find out?a Scope. I just do not want to fry my testing equipment trying to find out :)

Right.
Open the scope box and do not use it on the stun gun until you are sure how to use the scope. Please. I want some company using this scope.
It is quite nice even if I cannot share the results with everybody.
If you put the x10 slide on the probe along with the x10 button you will be able to read something whose peak is 1000 v, but you will kill it if you don't have those set right.

The length of the spark is directly related to the voltage.

I don't have any more time this weekend but you can find it by key words of "spark length" to volts... stuff like that.

then please let us know.

jeanna

add:
@Stprue
xee's wrapping wire is the stuff I called "kynar". xee gave the name that is on the package. kynar is somewhere on the package too. It seems like aluminum wire covered with gutta percha - or some modern equivalent. very rubbery coating.
30 gauge so be gentle.
My Radio Shack only has it in white.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: AbbaRue on May 23, 2009, 01:05:57 PM

Years ago I was playing with a 12,000 volt neon sign transformer making HV sparks.
I had my digital meter sitting on the Buffet about 10 ft away and it was turned off.
I suddenly noticed a cloud of smoke coming from the meter.
Even though the meter was 10 ft away and turned off the HV field fried it.
Just wanted to mention this so no one fries there meters or Oscilloscopes.
Playing with HV is strange stuff, now I keep my digital meter well away from it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on May 23, 2009, 01:41:11 PM

@all

Some eddy current http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pi-22r0OJJA&NR=1

http://www.scribd.com/doc/13491267/Some-Free-Energy-Devices-eBook

great book !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on May 23, 2009, 03:09:13 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on May 23, 2009, 01:41:11 PM
@all

Some eddy current http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pi-22r0OJJA&NR=1

http://www.scribd.com/doc/13491267/Some-Free-Energy-Devices-eBook

great book !

lol

LIKE THE VID ...

I GOT ME A BETTER WAY NO I HAVE NOT BUILT IT YET!! ;D

IT USES LESS AND IS FAR MORE POWERFULL ....

;D

NEO ZAP ..... ;)

IST!

FUNNY MY POST NUMBER... 2 99 1

I READ THAT AS 2 GIVIEING 1 99 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 23, 2009, 05:44:39 PM

Voltage divider (not shown) used for measuring voltage.

EDIT: added data for second output capacitor value

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on May 23, 2009, 06:18:36 PM

Quote from: mikem_2au on May 23, 2009, 11:13:56 AM
has anyone tried lighting a CCFL tube ?
i was thinking of getting a couple from ebay.
mike..

i have mike. i used one in that beer light i posted a while back.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 23, 2009, 06:51:51 PM

Quote from: AbbaRue on May 23, 2009, 01:05:57 PM
Years ago I was playing with a 12,000 volt neon sign transformer making HV sparks.
I had my digital meter sitting on the Buffet about 10 ft away and it was turned off.
I suddenly noticed a cloud of smoke coming from the meter.
Even though the meter was 10 ft away and turned off the HV field fried it.
Just wanted to mention this so no one fries there meters or Oscilloscopes.
Playing with HV is strange stuff, now I keep my digital meter well away from it.

Wow thats freaky.. What was the current on the transformer? I have a 25kV DC power supply that I can get to arc about half an inch and a Tesla coil that will make my tubes light up from 3 foot away! so I am sure it can happen but have not had it happen as of yet.

I have been playing with 600kV plus transformers all day making arcs and now you have me testing my meters lol

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 23, 2009, 06:59:15 PM

@jeanna

So far I have got the spark from the stun gun to about 1 inch. I know I can do better but will need to make a better spark gap. Once I move it to far I can hear some serious hissing.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 23, 2009, 07:31:21 PM

i promise to upload pictures and diagrams when im done, this is a good project for many people, let me explain.

i have common household metals in the ground outside, these metals produce a decent current however there are some minor details to note about this current.

A) it has a voltage POTENTIAL of 0.940v but has a constant voltage under load of 0.6v it has a ampere POTENTIAL of 4mah but constant of 2mah.

it currently is enough to light a LED but not brightly. i am trying to work it out to power a 13w CFL. i will need your help to get there however.

what is the current highest frequency schematic? i have seen one with a 10uf cap in parallel with the bettery and a base resistor of 500k with a 1000uf cap. the turns on the torroid were 2 and 5 respectively. is this our best?

at worst i think i can light the LED to full brightness off of less than we have seen to date and at best i think i can light a CFL!

i will need to know a higher freq curcuit to continue my work, i can experiment till i find one but if someone could point me to it that would shorten my time span significantly as i do not have a osciliscope.

thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 23, 2009, 07:46:32 PM

Quote from: altrez on May 23, 2009, 12:03:08 PM
Would you happen to know of a good way for me to find out? I have a few multimeter's and a Scope. I just do not want to fry my testing equipment trying to find out :)

Thanks!

-Altrez

i feel you! especially that osciliscope is not cheep! honestly i would say that you would have to start with the lowest powersource just to get it working. in order to do that the terminals would have to be connected as if it produces a spark its too high to measure on most equipment. how you could go about this is beyond me at the moment. if i think of something i will be sure to post it. im sure if you just fire it up and use it that way its gonna fry your equipment tho, this is some powerful stuff.

IMPORTANT NOTE. it is well known fact that a 1/4 inch spark is 20kv so with that in mind you can measure the spark and determine roughly how much the voltage will be! however the voltage could be higher as to ensure a spark so its more of a minimum guess not a max guess.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 23, 2009, 09:08:31 PM

i have not tested the performance qualities yet against these coils but already im seeing electrical properties that are unusual.

coil (A) has half the turns and is a normal winding IE wrapping wire clockwise the entire time.

Coil (B) has double the turns but is a Tesla Bifiliar coil IE it has 2 wires side by side, the first wire makes rotations clockwise then comes back and links to the second wire which winds along side wire 1. so it follows the same path twice side by side.

the electricial difference i have seen so far is they both have the same resistance! i cant wait to fire these up on the JT later to see what happens. supposedly the tesla bifiliar will increase magnetic capacitance according to him but what effect will that have? increase voltage? amperage? increase the magnetism per volt IE increasing the effeciency of the unit?

fun times. this will be the first time i have tested a tesla bifiliar in this way.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: weri812 on May 23, 2009, 10:46:08 PM

hello WilbyI

gould you email me at weri812@aol.com

the mail system not working on here.

thanks

God Bless
wer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 23, 2009, 11:46:31 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 23, 2009, 12:00:52 PM
I got them from xee's posted source. um battery station, something.
I think gadget's link was to the manufacturer and I don't remember any price on that site, just a little information.
It also showed other products beyond the tiles. I like the idea of an acrylic sheet that can be cut to shape. (the crazy artist in me gets all excited about stuff like this.)

They are surprisingly bright with very little input.
It is very foggy this morning and I put a couple in the window for 15 - 30 minutes. I didn't even need to get into a dark room to see it brightly glow. In the window it looks a dull greenish color, then just to the side of the window the whole tile becomes a brilliant glow.

I think gadget and maybe ist should buy them to sell on their websites- they must be pretty cheap to be able to retail them for 50 cents.

jeanna

Glad you like them . I knew some people would like those . I bought a hundred several years ago from a group buy from the manufacture in turkey . You have to Buy a Pallet of them @ 800 dollars shipping included . since then the new source i have bought several 100 more in aqua and green and i do sell them but not for 50 cents . I like the aqua the best ! I have sold many at the flea market for 2 dollars each . I also have some inlaid on My patio as a walk way light . . A pallet i believe could do a 12 foot square . .Ive got about 120 left and i will keep em in stock because when the station runs out we wont have another outlet unless we do a group buy .they make Great Christmas Presents too . A Uv led will light them up bright !

BTW Those TOPHAT leds or as China calls them STRAWHAT leds are the whitest and brightest i have ever seen for 115kmcds . they are short and fat and have a 140 degree viewing angle . I recommend them Highly . they spread the Blinding light out rather than up and come in 220kmcd also . . that's all for now guys .I'll be selling strawhats on site next week . Nite .
Sweet Glowing dreams

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 24, 2009, 12:04:53 AM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on May 23, 2009, 07:31:21 PM
i promise to upload pictures and diagrams when im done, this is a good project for many people, let me explain.

i have common household metals in the ground outside, these metals produce a decent current however there are some minor details to note about this current.

A) it has a voltage POTENTIAL of 0.940v but has a constant voltage under load of 0.6v it has a ampere POTENTIAL of 4mah but constant of 2mah.

it currently is enough to light a LED but not brightly. i am trying to work it out to power a 13w CFL. i will need your help to get there however.

what is the current highest frequency schematic? i have seen one with a 10uf cap in parallel with the bettery and a base resistor of 500k with a 1000uf cap. the turns on the torroid were 2 and 5 respectively. is this our best?

at worst i think i can light the LED to full brightness off of less than we have seen to date and at best i think i can light a CFL!

i will need to know a higher freq curcuit to continue my work, i can experiment till i find one but if someone could point me to it that would shorten my time span significantly as i do not have a osciliscope.

thanks

that would mean you you would have be beat me :) 0.19 volts at 0.20 ma Bright white ::)

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 24, 2009, 12:27:28 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 23, 2009, 11:46:31 PM
Glad you like them . I knew some people would like those . I bought a hundred several years ago from a group buy from the manufacture in turkey . You have to Buy a Pallet of them @ 800 dollars shipping included . since then the new source i have bought several 100 more in aqua and green and i do sell them but not for 50 cents . I like the aqua the best ! I have sold many at the flea market for 2 dollars each . I also have some inlaid on My patio as a walk way light . . A pallet i believe could do a 12 foot square . .Ive got about 120 left and i will keep em in stock because when the station runs out we wont have another outlet unless we do a group buy .they make Great Christmas Presents too . A Uv led will light them up bright !

BTW Those TOPHAT leds or as China calls them STRAWHAT leds are the whitest and brightest i have ever seen for 115kmcds . they are short and fat and have a 140 degree viewing angle . I recommend them Highly . they spread the Blinding light out rather than up and come in 220kmcd also . . that's all for now guys .I'll be selling strawhats on site next week . Nite .
Sweet Glowing dreams

Gadget

Al:

I am going to try to get some of these glow things soon as well. I'll have to check into your tophat leds as I was not really impressed with the light output of the ultrabright leds I got form goldmine (they have 5 chips in them) rated at 265,000 MCD. I compared them on the JT to the ones I got that were rated 28,500 and yes, they were brighter, but not enough in my mind to justify the additional amp draw. My rough guess from eye observation might put them at 3 times brighter, but no more. I believe they draw 100 mA's each to be fully illuminated. I think I would rather have a bunch of the 28,500 guys before I got any more 265,000 leds.

How do your tophat leds compare to what we have seen so far vs amp draw? (not actual amp draw, but their rating)

I am also not impressed with the 1 amp leds that are out there now. Yes, they are bright, but, at what power cost?

I trust your opinion and if you think the new leds are something to try (as you just said) I will do so. Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 24, 2009, 02:19:44 AM

Quote from: altrez on May 23, 2009, 06:59:15 PM
So far I have got the spark from the stun gun to about 1 inch. I know I can do better but will need to make a better spark gap. Once I move it too far I can hear some serious hissing.

Hi Altrez,
I am not sure how the stun gun applies to the only info I have. Here is that info.
If you put 2 balls or rounded rods 1 inch apart and pop a spark between them, a 1 inch spark means you have 70kv.
A 1/2 inch spark means 40kv and
1.7 inch spark means you have 90kv.

In this table you must move the balls apart to the separation I mentioned in order to get the right spark length.

Since a stun gun sends the spark outward, I do not know if or how this applies.

The tesla coil on the roof of that museum as we saw yesterday was using megavolts to produce those outward sparks.

I would guess if you could find the research done by Herz that he used for his frequency studies, you might find the information you need. (It is probably in german from the mid 1800's - good luck!)

Tesla referred to the work of Herz when addressing a group of electrical engineers and he did not need to go into any details about what Herz had done. It was well understood. Maybe you can find it, by following that trail. I am curious about this, but am more compelled to follow other threads.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 24, 2009, 03:24:08 AM

@ Jeanna:

I too have seen spark distances quoted for the voltage levels needed to create them.. But, Dr. Walter Lewin (MIT) says this is very dependent on the humidity. He says this can change that distance by a factor of 100%.
In other words, in the winter, when it is dry inside you can get a spark to jump 1" using x volts. In the summer, especially on a humid day, that spark may now only go 1/2" at the same voltage levels. So, we might just have to use these figures as a guideline for comparison purposes.

I have no idea if he is correct or not but, he is Dr. Lewin of MIT and this point was made in one of his online lectures I have been watching on Physics. I just thought I would pass this on.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 24, 2009, 07:50:42 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 24, 2009, 12:04:53 AM
that would mean you you would have be beat me :) 0.19 volts at 0.20 ma Bright white ::)

Gadget

what did you do to get those results? i must have missed that post! are you sure your drawing less than a miliamp? that sounds nearly impossible to get to work with the joule thief! i couldnt even get mine to resonate with current as low as 4v 1a

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: mikem_2au on May 24, 2009, 10:36:39 AM

@WilbyInebriated
I just took another look at your
beer light, thats nice. I think I'll get a couple ccfl's,
but it will have to wait a couple of weeks.
I played with a Royer Converter a couple of weeks
ago (diagram bellow) it was working good, until a
battery went of with a bang, the negative end
poped open, not sure what i did wrong, but i'm
planning to give it another try. thanks for your
reply.

@xee2
I made no changes to your circuit, i was just moving
a couple of wires to change from the fuji circuit
to yours. Both circuits are working well for me.

mike..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 24, 2009, 11:15:16 AM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on May 24, 2009, 07:50:42 AM
what did you do to get those results? i must have missed that post! are you sure your drawing less than a miliamp? that sounds nearly impossible to get to work with the joule thief! i couldnt even get mine to resonate with current as low as 4v 1a

See . i told you . . yea you missed it alright . it was around page 100 . Its called Low power JT and the credit goes to mk1 and jeanna's secondary and me . I use a germanium motorola transistor hep638 and yes i am positive its 1/5 of a milliamp . this one has been running since i made it . I have it running 4 white leds now @ 0.80 milliamps at 0 .20 volts .
Good luck !

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 24, 2009, 11:27:57 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 24, 2009, 12:27:28 AM
Al:

I am going to try to get some of these glow things soon as well. I'll have to check into your tophat leds as I was not really impressed with the light output of the ultrabright leds I got form goldmine (they have 5 chips in them) rated at 265,000 MCD. I compared them on the JT to the ones I got that were rated 28,500 and yes, they were brighter, but not enough in my mind to justify the additional amp draw. My rough guess from eye observation might put them at 3 times brighter, but no more. I believe they draw 100 mA's each to be fully illuminated. I think I would rather have a bunch of the 28,500 guys before I got any more 265,000 leds.

How do your tophat leds compare to what we have seen so far vs amp draw? (not actual amp draw, but their rating)

I am also not impressed with the 1 amp leds that are out there now. Yes, they are bright, but, at what power cost?

I trust your opinion and if you think the new leds are something to try (as you just said) I will do so. Thanks.

Bill

I have compared them to every led i have and there is no competition . the other high powered leds look bluish beside this one . Its really white . google straw hat leds . the light dispersion is almost 180 degrees . I love em and i would trade my 200kmcds and every other leds i have for them .i have 100 . 20 k and they look so dull now . there expensive but one is equal to a 20 watt light bulb if not more . the current is un noticeable on a secondary and i can light 5 in parallel no problem at 3.5 milliamps . they are supposed to be 1/2 watt and 100 ma but they can run on far less with our Jts..it all about frequency .

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 24, 2009, 11:45:05 AM

@ mikem_2au

Thanks for posting your circuit. Mine was only an idea, I never made it. Can you light the tube with 1.5 volts?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on May 24, 2009, 01:46:22 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 24, 2009, 11:45:05 AM
@ mikem_2au

Thanks for posting your circuit. Mine was only an idea, I never made it. Can you light the tube with 1.5 volts?

I FIND YOUR STATEMENT OFFENCIVE!!
WHERE WOULD YOU BE WITH OUT THE IDEA

EX ELECRTICAL ENGINEER #2 LOL

?? LOL

HEAVEN AINT CLOSE IN A PLACE LIKE THIS ... DONT BLINK YOU WONT MISS ..... HEAVEN AINT CLOSE IN A PLACE LIKE THIS ........

HEARS AN IDEA... 4 YA ... LOL LOL

MY SISTER SAID SHE SAW A PROGRAM ON DISCOVERY .... CHANNEL ... AND WHAT DID SHE SEE...

BUT AN IDEA .... THAT WAS NEVER FINISHED ... WHAT WAS IT ... MY TURBINE ..... SHE KNEW ... LOL

HEY ITS YOUR FUTURE ... ;)

IST!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAmS669YSd0

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 24, 2009, 04:15:37 PM

Here is a Picture of the Short and Stubby Straw Hat or Tophat LEd because it looks like a Laural and Hardy Tophat . Pure white light . If you can't find them Gadgets got em !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 24, 2009, 04:18:33 PM

Gadget:

Thanks for the pics. I have never seen any like that before. the viewing angle you stated is a hell of a lot better than the specs on my 265,000 mcd leds. I just looked it up and it is only 40 degrees.

I am glad you brought these to my attention. Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 24, 2009, 04:45:43 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 24, 2009, 04:18:33 PM
Gadget:

Thanks for the pics. I have never seen any like that before. the viewing angle you stated is a hell of a lot better than the specs on my 265,000 mcd leds. I just looked it up and it is only 40 degrees.

I am glad you brought these to my attention. Thanks.

Bill

Your Welcome . I have never seen anything like them either and after you've had the real thing you will never go back ;)

Gadget Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 24, 2009, 05:57:52 PM

@jeanna,

Any tips on how to use this scope :) I am not sure how to even take a frequency reading :) I pressed the AUTO button and it goes all over the place!

Thanks!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 24, 2009, 08:06:37 PM

Quote from: altrez on May 24, 2009, 05:57:52 PM
@jeanna,

Any tips on how to use this scope :) I am not sure how to even take a frequency reading :) I pressed the AUTO button and it goes all over the place!

Thanks!

-Altrez

Yeah, auto isn't for us. but it does prove the thing has working batteries.

There is a lot of undescribed stuff in (not in) the manual. pm me and tell me where you are. If you are where I was,,, fine.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 24, 2009, 08:13:32 PM

Anyone out there getting OU ?

Can someone with a few JTs sitting around varify my findings ?

I have been making quite a few variations of my LM JT
My OU stuff might work better with my LM coils than a regular JT because they are bigger . I am sure that the concept will work with other JTs I have even added regular inductors to my string and they added a little .

Anyway I start off with a normal JT ( LM in this case )
Start with the biggest JT you are planning on using .
Hook it up normally ......
Instead of driving LEDs with the secondary connect the rest of the JTs
in series I usually put them on one leg but sense it is AC they seem to work the same on either leg .
I guess I am not being clear about how to connect the other JTs.
All but the original JT are coil only ........no transitors no resistors
At this point ...... you will be connecting only the secondarys in series .
Just form a chain from the original JT secondary through each other secondary then to the LEDs or whatever you are using for a load .
So so far we are ignoring all the JT primarys except for the original one.
IN real life I add one JT coil at a time and see how it works for a little while.

With one full LM JT and 6 LM coils I am lighting 60 LEDs in an array at about half brightness .
I am using 3 meters
One is dedicated to current from the battery .
One is used for battery voltage .
The other one is voltage across my LED array

Battery current is stable at .28 A
Battery voltage has been fluctuating a little but has been holding right around 1.150 for a couple hours now .
Voltage across my array is holding at around 67 V

I am working on getting more power . ..... so far I have got it stable at .30 A That is my record .

A few little details
Start with your biggest JT .
Then use the next biggest ...... untill you have used all of them
If you put a large inductor after a small one the large one acts as a choke stopping almost all of the voltage .

Try to avoid hooking up the primary's of the first JT coil if you can ...... it seems to draw more from the system than later primary's

I started out using a bridge .......but I found that a diode on each primary leg is good enough . I just hook a primary and diode up in parallel with the battery . then check my meters
If the voltages are still winding down .....I hook up another primary
I am only using 2 primary's with my current setup.

As far as I can see all we are doing here is making pulses with a JT
Then feeding those pulses into other JT coils to collect the flyback
It uses ALL of the original JT output and ALL of the flyback .

The only problem I have had is the JT drifing out of resonance . If it goes out of resonance and the battery draw goes up it starts draining the battery .
The battery seems exert some force to keep the voltage in a fairly narrow band .
I am guessing that the battery resistance goes up as it nears full charge .

I hope that this is clear enough to understand

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 24, 2009, 08:40:54 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on May 24, 2009, 08:13:32 PM
Anyone out there getting OU ?

Can someone with a few JTs sitting around varify my findings ?

I have been making quite a few variations of my LM JT
My OU stuff might work better with my LM coils than a regular JT because they are bigger . I am sure that the concept will work with other JTs I have even added regular inductors to my string and they added a little .

Anyway I start off with a normal JT ( LM in this case )
Start with the biggest JT you are planning on using .
Hook it up normally ......
Instead of driving LEDs with the secondary connect the rest of the JTs
in series I usually put them on one leg but sense it is AC they seem to work the same on either leg .
I guess I am not being clear about how to connect the other JTs.
All but the original JT are coil only ........no transitors no resistors
At this point ...... you will be connecting only the secondarys in series .
Just form a chain from the original JT secondary through each other secondary then to the LEDs or whatever you are using for a load .
So so far we are ignoring all the JT primarys except for the original one.
IN real life I add one JT coil at a time and see how it works for a little while.

With one full LM JT and 6 LM coils I am lighting 60 LEDs in an array at about half brightness .
I am using 3 meters
One is dedicated to current from the battery .
One is used for battery voltage .
The other one is voltage across my LED array

Battery current is stable at .28 A
Battery voltage has been fluctuating a little but has been holding right around 1.150 for a couple hours now .
Voltage across my array is holding at around 67 V

I am working on getting more power . ..... so far I have got it stable at .30 A That is my record .

A few little details
Start with your biggest JT .
Then use the next biggest ...... untill you have used all of them
If you put a large inductor after a small one the large one acts as a choke stopping almost all of the voltage .

Try to avoid hooking up the primary's of the first JT coil if you can ...... it seems to draw more from the system than later primary's

I started out using a bridge .......but I found that a diode on each primary leg is good enough . I just hook a primary and diode up in parallel with the battery . then check my meters
If the voltages are still winding down .....I hook up another primary
I am only using 2 primary's with my current setup.

As far as I can see all we are doing here is making pulses with a JT
Then feeding those pulses into other JT coils to collect the flyback
It uses ALL of the original JT output and ALL of the flyback .

The only problem I have had is the JT drifing out of resonance . If it goes out of resonance and the battery draw goes up it starts draining the battery .
The battery seems exert some force to keep the voltage in a fairly narrow band .
I am guessing that the battery resistance goes up as it nears full charge .

I hope that this is clear enough to understand

gary

Hi Gary . Good going. Yes we are lighting up many allready . jeanna is the one to talk to about running more secondaries from one . she has done many experiments and has all that documented . Hazens1 is running 60 leds Fullpower with a norm,al jt . Its not uncommon to run 100's of leds from the secondary with little power drain . un noticeable current drain from th eprimary jt when you use a proper secondary many leds in parallel . I Just recently got 1300 volts from one of mine and xee2 is doing great at his version as well .Its all about the core and the frequency . Post some pictures . everyone has there own thing and as a collective we all learn from each other and go our own way .

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 24, 2009, 08:51:32 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 24, 2009, 08:06:37 PM
Yeah, auto isn't for us. but it does prove the thing has working batteries.

There is a lot of undescribed stuff in (not in) the manual. pm me and tell me where you are. If you are where I was,,, fine.

jeanna

Thank you so much. I promise I will not bug you very much :)

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on May 24, 2009, 08:52:54 PM

Quote from: mikem_2au on May 24, 2009, 10:36:39 AM
@WilbyInebriated
I just took another look at your
beer light, thats nice. I think I'll get a couple ccfl's,
but it will have to wait a couple of weeks.
I played with a Royer Converter a couple of weeks
ago (diagram bellow) it was working good, until a
battery went of with a bang, the negative end
poped open, not sure what i did wrong, but i'm
planning to give it another try. thanks for your
reply.

mike..

thanks mike.
that's that same royer circuit i used. i got the zetex transistors they recommended, they work great. a small change in transformer windings and a couple component values and you can run it on one aa. i was using a 3.7 lithium from a cell phone in that light beer photo, which as you can imagine, runs it much brighter than the single aa setup.

the ccfl's are cool, i put a nice on/off pot on it now so i can vary the input voltage from the battery and the ccfl will light up from one end to the other as the pot is adjusted up and down. i need a bunch of 3 footers and a controller ;D

edit for xee:
i just checked 1.5v and a ccfl. it barely lights one end of the tube.
it has no problem with lighting a standard 8watt fluoro on 1.5v.
this is with components chosen for 4v input. pull a turn off of w2 and w3 and add a 100 turns to w1, change c2 to .15Î¼f as per the .pdf and it might work for lighting the ccfl.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 24, 2009, 08:55:27 PM

@all

I have some news to report. I got my first neon to light!!! It will not light a CFL as of yet but I was holding onto the pick up wires and got a healthy ZAP!!!!#!@!

Would anyone happen to know of a good way to wind coils? right now I have to wrap the wire on a screw and it takes hours to wind the toroid! It was no big deal when it was only 12 turns, now I am moving up to over 300!

Thank you all so much!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 24, 2009, 09:29:35 PM

Quote from: altrez on May 24, 2009, 08:55:27 PM
@all

I have some news to report. I got my first neon to light!!! It will not light a CFL as of yet but I was holding onto the pick up wires and got a healthy ZAP!!!!#!@!

Would anyone happen to know of a good way to wind coils? right now I have to wrap the wire on a screw and it takes hours to wind the toroid! It was no big deal when it was only 12 turns, now I am moving up to over 300!

Thank you all so much!

-Altrez

Congrats!! its always a thrill to get Hv from toroids . you got a big one there !! there is no easy way to wind copper wire . I have taken 20 feet and ran it down the hall start the wind with a drop of hot glue or black tape to hold the start then i loop it over a door knob and walk backwards and do this three hundred times times :) . I tried the way jeanna does by putting it around behind her neck but i almost hung myself ;) There is no easy way unless you use bell wire ,it dont get tangled up or kink .thats the 4 color wire in old phone cable . I have about 50 feet of 4 colors and i prefer that for bigger winds but you cant get as much on a toroid as regular #26 .

gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 24, 2009, 09:55:57 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 24, 2009, 09:29:35 PM
Congrats!! its always a thrill to get Hv from toroids . you got a big one there !! there is no easy way to wind copper wire . I have taken 20 feet and ran it down the hall start the wind with a drop of hot glue or black tape to hold the start then i loop it over a door knob and walk backwards and do this three hundred times times :) . I tried the way jeanna does by putting it around behind her neck but i almost hung myself ;) There is no easy way unless you use bell wire ,it dont get tangled up or kink .thats the 4 color wire in old phone cable . I have about 50 feet of 4 colors and i prefer that for bigger winds but you cant get as much on a toroid as regular #26 .

gadget

Thank you :) BTW I plan on ordering a EB kit from you soon!

Take Care,

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on May 24, 2009, 10:08:30 PM

@xee and mike
i just ran a quick test with another circuit i have. i can get a ccfl to light on one aa but i wouldn't really call it 'usable light'. using 2 aa's, even rechargeables, for 2.4v input or better, will give usable light.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 24, 2009, 10:11:46 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 24, 2009, 09:29:35 PM
. I tried the way jeanna does by putting it around behind her neck but i almost hung myself ;)

Yes... Only one HALF time on the back of your neck!!

;D

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 24, 2009, 10:20:30 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on May 24, 2009, 08:13:32 PM

The only problem I have had is the JT drifing out of resonance . If it goes out of resonance and the battery draw goes up it starts draining the battery .

Hi Gary,
I really don't know that I was getting ou. I am not looking at that part of things.

The reason I suggested to use the same size jt for the second tier was this.
I think it is possible to get matches with others, but you know you have a chance at keeping the vibes at about the same frequency when you have the same toroid on the second tier.

Take a look at my 2 tier stuff and see if you don't see the same thing, well similar.

I didn't use a diode but I did because I used the light emitting kind.
I found 3 or maybe 4 distinct places where there was significant light and where the draw did not increase or the light diminish when I added more.

The loop of current was amazing.

See if I didn't get what you are seeing.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 24, 2009, 11:37:03 PM

@all

Well some more tests with my new pickup coil. I can light two strings of LED lights not all of them for some odd reason some on each string just will not light. Not sure why?

I am also using the basic JT circuit would it help to change out the transistor or resistor to get more performance? Right now thanks to jeanna :) I am seeing voltage spikes in the 340v range!

So my question is should I unwind that new pickup coil and rewind a one with 30awg wire at 300+ turns? Or try and work on the back end first? I am sure that I can push over 1000v with a 300 turn coil.

Thank you!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on May 24, 2009, 11:44:29 PM

nice job!
is it every other led that doesn't light?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 24, 2009, 11:48:08 PM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on May 24, 2009, 11:44:29 PM
nice job!
is it every other led that doesn't light?

Thank you! No its just random ones from each string. I tested them and they all work when plugged into the mains.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 24, 2009, 11:55:17 PM

Quote from: altrez on May 24, 2009, 11:37:03 PM
@all

Well some more tests with my new pickup coil. I can light two strings of LED lights not all of them for some odd reason some on each string just will not light. Not sure why?

I am also using the basic JT circuit would it help to change out the transistor or resistor to get more performance? Right now thanks to jeanna :) I am seeing voltage spikes in the 340v range!

So my question is should I unwind that new pickup coil and rewind a one with 30awg wire at 300+ turns? Or try and work on the back end first? I am sure that I can push over 1000v with a 300 turn coil.

Thank you!

-Altrez

I took my string o leds apart after I got them to light and only half of them lit.
There was a diode in the first and the middle or other end light. I think It probably protects the string from surges which would kill it under normal wiring conditions.

There were 3 wires at each of these fatter bases. The rest had 2 wires and were smaller.

340v
cool.

Are you using a breadboard? If so it is an easy job to try a few different items.

In fact.
Put a pot -I used a 1k pot for this. And with the scope on the 2 secondary leads, slowly turn the pot and watch what happens.

This is where I first noticed that as the frequency goes one way the voltage goes the other.
check it out.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 24, 2009, 11:58:29 PM

altrez:

Good going there! Those look very bright too. I never ran into anything like you describe and my lights look just like yours. I have no idea why this might be. You already checked the lights on ac grid power so, I am out of thoughts here.

OK, maybe one thought....these lights, of course, are all made in China and probably from the same factory. China's QC leaves a lot to be desired. I have heard of folks ordering leds in lots of ten and only like 6 of them light. Maybe you have some random very marginal leds in your strings. Those bulbs are easy to take out and, if they are like mine, they give you some spares with each string. you could try to swap out a spare or two, or, change the position of one that does not light with one that does and see what happens. Other than that.....

Bill ***EDIT*** Jeanna, we posted at the same time. Thanks for the info on the diodes, I had no idea they were there on these cheap led strings.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 25, 2009, 12:34:47 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 24, 2009, 11:58:29 PM

Bill ***EDIT*** Jeanna, we posted at the same time. Thanks for the info on the diodes, I had no idea they were there on these cheap led strings.

I had wondered how they had gotten around the initial problems with leds and ac.
In the beginning when one led type light in an edison base cost 60 bucks.. ugh! and they blew out so frequently they were taken off the market for a few years. Then suddenly they were back. I knew they had fixed the problem but not how.

the problem was that the led would blow out and burn - you know the smell- when there was just 2v too many in the line. Since surges much larger than that are common; these very expensive lights were blowing left right and center.

Also, btw,
The string I got this year was made so you cannot get the light or anything else out.

It looks like a regular plastic case with a seam. but the seam must be the seam of the mold. It is one continuous mass of plastic surrounding the wires and the lights. I had to cut my way into the thing with a chisel and wire cutters. The screwdriver as prier did not work.

My plan is to eliminate those 2 dioded lights and make a note not to ever plug that string into the wall.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on May 25, 2009, 12:38:30 AM

@jeanna
mmmm, the smell of a diode transformed into a friode, nothing quite like it. ;D

@all
lightly modded, not tuned bug swatter circuit @ 2v input, running a ccfl.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 25, 2009, 12:40:45 AM

@ altrez

Quote from: altrez on May 24, 2009, 11:37:03 PM

So my question is should I unwind that new pickup coil and rewind a one with 30awg wire at 300+ turns? Or try and work on the back end first? I am sure that I can push over 1000v with a 300 turn coil.

I would try doubling the number of turns on the collector coil first since that is a lot easier to do and should increase your pickup coil voltage. Also try varying the base resistor value. But more turns on the pickup coil is the best way to get more volts out.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 25, 2009, 12:44:32 AM

Quote from: altrez on May 24, 2009, 08:55:27 PM
I got my first neon to light!!! It will not light a CFL as of yet but I was holding onto the pick up wires and got a healthy ZAP!!!!#!@!

Hey great!
I missed this somehow.

I want to know how you got a zap? Do you have diodes a rectifier or a cap somewhere? I don't see it, but that doesn't mean much.

I have never gotten a zap. In fact I don't ever get any voltage in a cap off the secondary unless I have a bridge there.

One of my personal things is to stay away from making this ac back into dc, so I don't get some of the results others get. And, I have noticed that the cap can't seem to collect any voltage without the diode. (I am sure this is not news to the guys with the schooling)

jeanna

edit

Quotemmmm, the smell of a diode transformed into a friode, nothing quite like it. ;D

thats pretty funny friode

more edit:
@xee

QuoteI would try doubling the number of turns on the collector coil first since that is a lot easier to do and should increase your pickup coil voltage

Maybe that will work on some of my little cores. The tor-23 is such a great little core, but there isn't enough room for more pickup turns. Maybe a few more added to the collector will help boost the voltage on the ones with very high frequency where I can afford to have that drop a bit.
Thanks for the idea.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 25, 2009, 12:55:32 AM

@ WilbyInebriated

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on May 25, 2009, 12:38:30 AM
lightly modded, not tuned bug swatter circuit @ 2v input, running a ccfl.

Looks really bright.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on May 25, 2009, 01:00:36 AM

i was just playing around with some bulbs i have and while digging in a box looking for more i came across an old 175 watt metal halide from my coral reef tank. i hooked it up and the arc tube lit with a pale blue color. it wasn't enough to ignite the bulb of course, but it did look cool with the lights off. i tried to take a picture, but it didn't turn out. my camera sucks. >:(

@xee
yes, @ 2v it's usable light, nice for a tent or night light. @ 3.7v it's real bright, you don't wanna look at it. i like these ccfl's better, they seem brighter than the other bulbs.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 25, 2009, 01:10:19 AM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on May 25, 2009, 12:44:32 AM
One of my personal things is to stay away from making this ac back into dc, so I don't get some of the results others get. And, I have noticed that the cap can't seem to collect any voltage without the diode. (I am sure this is not news to the guys with the schooling)

That's right, no diode = no voltage on cap.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 25, 2009, 09:00:31 AM

@jeanna

I was hooking it up to a 4 watt tube when I got the ZAP it was most definitely a ZAP no way to mistake that one :) I will take a look at the LED string to see if I can find the diode

@Bill,

Thanks for the help!

@xee2

I will see if a 12-12 will kick it up over 400 volts its 8-8 right now.

Thank you all!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 25, 2009, 10:03:29 AM

@all,
Hi all, I'm playing catchup again, I'm on 607 so it's going to be a while before I have caught up.

Thought I might post a pic of my latest LED I bought this morning in Brisbane, its a CREE Ultra Bright LED, rated at 1Watt light output. I havent played with these before so I will need to do a bit of studying up about them. At $12.95 each, they are too expensive to destroy.

I also increased my instruments, bought a 0-30volt 0-2.5Amp adjustable volt and Current power supply, as soon as I got home I pulled the cover off it, (couldn't help myself, just had to know what was inside it lol).very nice unit has digital readouts, wacking big transformer, and the heatsink has 2 vacant predrilled holes to fitt another second set of power transistors, so in my book it's upgradeable for a higher output.

Also bought some Mosfets, 100 x 1N4007 1Amp diodes and 100x 1n4007 3Amp diodes and last of all 1 x 55 Farad 2.5v cap, all up I spent just over $200 australian on bits and pieces.
It was fun time. ;D

To those who have Earth Battery experience, I need you input about this idea I have.
I am having a difficult time getting big carbon rods here, but I have about 30 odd carbon electrodes from 1.5v batteries, if I crush these rods up, put the crushed carbon in a sock with a stainless steel electrode, would this work OK?

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 25, 2009, 10:16:16 AM

@ altrez

Quote from: altrez on May 25, 2009, 09:00:31 AM
I will see if a 12-12 will kick it up over 400 volts its 8-8 right now.

I would try 8-16.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 25, 2009, 11:06:45 AM

@ Jim:

Nice job on the new acquisitions.

About the carbon rods. Gadget is selling a 1/2" dia. x 12" long carbon rod and a similar sized magnesium rod on his website. Shipping down under shouldn't be too bad.

Also, if you have 20 of the smaller rods, just use some plastic tiewraps (wire ties) and band them together. I would not introduce a third metal (steel) into the mix. If I remember correctly, those rods in the D cell bats are almost 1/2" diameter. So, 30 of them banded together would be a pretty good sized mass of carbon....way bigger than my rods I am using. I would place them in the ground vertically. Man, I am guessing that would make a grouping about 6" in diameter or so. I am confident this will work well. If not, it is no problem to remove the plastic tiewraps but I am betting you won't need to.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 25, 2009, 11:20:13 AM

Quote from: electricme on May 25, 2009, 10:03:29 AM
@all,
Hi all, I'm playing catchup again, I'm on 607 so it's going to be a while before I have caught up.

Thought I might post a pic of my latest LED I bought this morning in Brisbane, its a CREE Ultra Bright LED, rated at 1Watt light output. I havent played with these before so I will need to do a bit of studying up about them. At $12.95 each, they are too expensive to destroy.

I also increased my instruments, bought a 0-30volt 0-2.5Amp adjustable volt and Current power supply, as soon as I got home I pulled the cover off it, (couldn't help myself, just had to know what was inside it lol).very nice unit has digital readouts, wacking big transformer, and the heatsink has 2 vacant predrilled holes to fitt another second set of power transistors, so in my book it's upgradeable for a higher output.

Also bought some Mosfets, 100 x 1N4007 1Amp diodes and 100x 1n4007 3Amp diodes and last of all 1 x 55 Farad 2.5v cap, all up I spent just over $200 australian on bits and pieces.
It was fun time. ;D

To those who have Earth Battery experience, I need you input about this idea I have.
I am having a difficult time getting big carbon rods here, but I have about 30 odd carbon electrodes from 1.5v batteries, if I crush these rods up, put the crushed carbon in a sock with a stainless steel electrode, would this work OK?

jim

Jim

It looks like you will be having some fun with your new toys

:)

About your carbon rods

I would not crush them up .
In my opinion if you crush them as you described you will end up with a carbon / stainless steel battery .

The galvanic process is very localized , any time you have to dissimilar conductors and an electrolite you will have a battery .

If I was making a big carbon electrode I would get some carbon fiber cloth ....... some companys that sell it will sometimes send a sample piece to prospective customers .
I would use silicone rubber ......I would saturate a small section of the carbon fiber cloth with the silicone rubber ..........then I would use cable ties to fasten the saturated part of the cloth to a nice heavy copper wire ........ I would make sure that I covered all the uninsulated part of the copper wire .......
Any carbon fiber cloth that is held in tight contact with the copper will conduct well . .......and it will be waterproof . .......so the copper will not be involved in the galvanic process .
Now ..this carbon electrode could be put in a bag of charcoal to make it work much longer .

for your current project I would suggest stripping a couple inches of insulation off some copper wire .
Wrap the bare copper around the carbon rods from your batterys
wrap them a bit loose .
Cover the copper around the rods with silicone rubber .
Wiggle the wires around a little so that the silicone rubber gets under the wires .
Twist the wires tight so that they have good mechanical contact with the carbon .
Make sure that ALL the uninsulated copper is covered with silicone rubber so that it does not get involved in the galvanic process .
Doing it this way will not provide a perfect seal ......there will be some reaction between the carbon and the copper because of water seeping into the carbon .........but it should be very limited if you get the silicone rubber worked under the wire .

gary

Edit

After thnking about it ........for small carbon rods I think I would use hot glue instead of sillicone rubber . ....
Just work quick ..... you would have to tighten the wire while the hot glue was still nice and hot .......

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: mikem_2au on May 25, 2009, 11:35:23 AM

@ WilbyInebriated
Thanks for for the added info on your
beer light, and that ccfl, lookin nice and bright.
I was hoping to get a good
result using 1 AA, but i have a couple cell
phone battery's so i may end up using them.

mike..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 25, 2009, 11:47:00 AM

Quote from: xee2 on May 23, 2009, 05:44:39 PM
Voltage divider (not shown) used for measuring voltage.

EDIT: added data for second output capacitor value

The cap will add voltage but if you put an led before the cap it could blow. I have killed 8 leds this way before I realized.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 25, 2009, 12:27:10 PM

simple test of a tesla bifiliar coil take 2 nails and 2 equal lengths of wire use one to just wind a regular coil the other fold in half and do a bifiliar. the bifiliar has more magnetism. also its picking up REALLY well in the JT curcuits! i dont think ill be using regular coils ever again!

also heres a link of something you guys might like.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rt3DMyanfWc

cheers

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 25, 2009, 12:28:19 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on May 25, 2009, 11:20:13 AM

Jim

It looks like you will be having some fun with your new toys

:)

About your carbon rods

I would not crush them up .
In my opinion if you crush them as you described you will end up with a carbon / stainless steel battery .

The galvanic process is very localized , any time you have to dissimilar conductors and an electrolite you will have a battery .

If I was making a big carbon electrode I would get some carbon fiber cloth ....... some companys that sell it will sometimes send a sample piece to prospective customers .
I would use silicone rubber ......I would saturate a small section of the carbon fiber cloth with the silicone rubber ..........then I would use cable ties to fasten the saturated part of the cloth to a nice heavy copper wire ........ I would make sure that I covered all the uninsulated part of the copper wire .......
Any carbon fiber cloth that is held in tight contact with the copper will conduct well . .......and it will be waterproof . .......so the copper will not be involved in the galvanic process .
Now ..this carbon electrode could be put in a bag of charcoal to make it work much longer .

for your current project I would suggest stripping a couple inches of insulation off some copper wire .
Wrap the bare copper around the carbon rods from your batterys
wrap them a bit loose .
Cover the copper around the rods with silicone rubber .
Wiggle the wires around a little so that the silicone rubber gets under the wires .
Twist the wires tight so that they have good mechanical contact with the carbon .
Make sure that ALL the uninsulated copper is covered with silicone rubber so that it does not get involved in the galvanic process .
Doing it this way will not provide a perfect seal ......there will be some reaction between the carbon and the copper because of water seeping into the carbon .........but it should be very limited if you get the silicone rubber worked under the wire .

gary

Edit

After thnking about it ........for small carbon rods I think I would use hot glue instead of sillicone rubber . ....
Just work quick ..... you would have to tighten the wire while the hot glue was still nice and hot .......

Gary:

I have to disagree on this. If Jim puts anything around the wire like silicone or hot glue, it will insulate the copper and give either a very poor connection, or no connection. All I did was strip the copper wire and tin it with solder in a ring shape that fits tightly over the carbon rods. This has been hooked up this way for almost 2 years through all of my experiments and there is no sign of any reaction between the solder and the carbon. If the hot glue gets between the wire and the carbon rod, and you do a continuity test I believe you will see little to no connection.

I am basing this on my personal experience here. If you have done it this way and it works, my guess would be you would obtain better results with a more solid connection.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 25, 2009, 01:27:45 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 24, 2009, 10:20:30 PM
Hi Gary,
I really don't know that I was getting ou. I am not looking at that part of things.

The reason I suggested to use the same size jt for the second tier was this.
I think it is possible to get matches with others, but you know you have a chance at keeping the vibes at about the same frequency when you have the same toroid on the second tier.

Take a look at my 2 tier stuff and see if you don't see the same thing, well similar.

I didn't use a diode but I did because I used the light emitting kind.
I found 3 or maybe 4 distinct places where there was significant light and where the draw did not increase or the light diminish when I added more.

The loop of current was amazing.

See if I didn't get what you are seeing.

jeanna

Jeanna

I have not been able to get your 2 tier JT working

I am sure that what you got is not what I am getting .

3 times now I have set it up and BOTH battery voltage and output voltage went up and stayed up ........I am talking about hours
The current from the battery stayed steady .

I have 2 coils that work MUCH better than the others . I am guessing that they go into resonance . One reason I think this is the problem I am having . The band where the LED array will light is very narrow .......when it drifts out of this band the battery doesn;t last long.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 25, 2009, 01:41:12 PM

Quote from: electricme on May 25, 2009, 10:03:29 AM

To those who have Earth Battery experience, I need you input about this idea I have.
I am having a difficult time getting big carbon rods here, but I have about 30 odd carbon electrodes from 1.5v batteries, if I crush these rods up, put the crushed carbon in a sock with a stainless steel electrode, would this work OK?

jim

Hi jim,
I had some carbon rods a welder's rod, but not with the grooves like Bills. I found soldering a few of them together helped a little. (I left the copper on the tops of the rods but removed it from the rest.)

But, I think I had my best results using carbon from a used water filter.
I wrapped a piece of unprinted newspaper around a piece of copper pipe and taped it and made it look like an electrode. (I pulled out the pipe which was just a form.)

When that went into the ground it was a better (more positive) electrode than the simple carbon rods were.

I am just not convinced I am really using this as EB, because wrapping it in paper may separate it too much from the earth microbes and minerals that could resupply electrons - if that is what is happening.

I also made an electrode from cement with carbon filter granules in it. That worked well and I am sure that is EB.

These are things I will experiment with more as I finish up with the joule thief part 1 in a few weeks. ;) (that is when I light a cfl with my 1.2v battery inside the house.)

jeanna

@xee,
thanks for the confirmation.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 25, 2009, 01:58:04 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 25, 2009, 12:28:19 PM
Gary:

I have to disagree on this. If Jim puts anything around the wire like silicone or hot glue, it will insulate the copper and give either a very poor connection, or no connection. All I did was strip the copper wire and tin it with solder in a ring shape that fits tightly over the carbon rods. This has been hooked up this way for almost 2 years through all of my experiments and there is no sign of any reaction between the solder and the carbon. If the hot glue gets between the wire and the carbon rod, and you do a continuity test I believe you will see little to no connection.

I am basing this on my personal experience here. If you have done it this way and it works, my guess would be you would obtain better results with a more solid connection.

Bill

Bill

I am a little surprised by your reply .

To be honest it looks to me like you need to take off your professor had and put on your expermenters hat .

:)

I was a bit surprised because I have always known you as an experimenter.

What I wrote was based on my experience .
The key is getting the connection tight enough while the glue is wet .
If you look any solid with a strong microscope you will see that it is not smooth ....not even close to smooth
The valleys will not conduct anyway .
It is only where the tips of the high spots on one material contact the other material that a good connection will be made .

The pressure on the high spots will be enough to squeeze the glue out of the way ......leaving the valleys filled
That is why I said that he would have to be fast . Once the glue gets to thick it WILL form a layer that will insulate the tops of the peaks .

Again ......this is from my experience this is a very good way to make a long lasting weather proof connection .........I have been doing it for years ....

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 25, 2009, 01:59:07 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on May 25, 2009, 01:27:45 PM

Jeanna

I have not been able to get your 2 tier JT working

Really!?!

What is not happening?
The amps draw is higher with it as 2 tier. I think I posted it. Part of that extra is because the bjtl of the jt on the first level with the transistor is in its place. That always takes a big draw.

I suspect you have a file with the information I gave along with it?

In a general way, there is one circuit that involves the whole (second tier) thing - all 3/4 wires. The 2 secondary wires and the upper tier primary bifilar that goes around that toroid.

There is another circuit that involves just the base coil of the second tier and the pickup (secondary) of the first level

and a third that uses just the collector coil of the upper level and the pickup (secondary) of the first level.

Of course, they all use all 3 circuits and the pulse from the one transistor etc.

But they give out different amounts of light and turning a led around can shut off all or just one of the others.

the bjtl on the first level with the transistor is effected by only one change in the upper level. I will need to review this to give you more info.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 25, 2009, 02:05:43 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on May 25, 2009, 12:27:10 PM
simple test of a tesla bifiliar coil take 2 nails and 2 equal lengths of wire use one to just wind a regular coil the other fold in half and do a bifiliar. the bifiliar has more magnetism. also its picking up REALLY well in the JT curcuits! i dont think ill be using regular coils ever again!

also heres a link of something you guys might like.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rt3DMyanfWc

cheers

Nice find! I want to make one now!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 25, 2009, 02:13:09 PM

@all

I think I have been building my JT circuits wrong? I have noticed that my transistors have been running extremely hot. I mean to the point I can not touch them. I have had a 1k resistor in place and thought it might not be enough so I added a pot like jeanna suggested for testing.

I noticed no matter how much I turned the pot it made no different in my voltage output. So this lead me to believe that even though it has been working and working well. I have had the circuit miss configured this whole time.

So now I have put a 10k pot on the base of a TIP31 that runs to one end of my primary coil and started testing. My voltage on my diode bridge jumped from 42v to over 160 plus!!!!! that's rectified DC voltage.

I wonder why it was working before? And if I have been reading the schematics wrong this whole time?

Any help or insight would be great.

Thank you!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 25, 2009, 02:16:43 PM

Here is my container for my replication of Wilby's Light. I just got it today but, it is full and I will have to work on emptying it. This is the part of experimentation that most people don't see. It is all of the hard work that goes on behind the scenes that never gets put into any video. This will be my sacrifice to our JT topic. When I get it done, and get it built, I will make a video. I could not find a Coor's keg so it will not be an exact replication. I hope it works anyway.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 25, 2009, 02:42:50 PM

Pretty funny, Bill. ;D

Quote from: altrez on May 25, 2009, 02:13:09 PM
I noticed no matter how much I turned the pot it made no different in my voltage output. So this lead me to believe that even though it has been working and working well. I have had the circuit miss configured this whole time.

So now I have put a 10k pot on the base of a TIP31 that runs to one end of my primary coil and started testing. My voltage on my diode bridge jumped from 42v to over 160 plus!!!!! that's rectified DC voltage.

I wonder why it was working before?

Any help or insight would be great.

Of course that is possible. But without some kind of description, it is really hard.

So, now you have the base resistor in the right place.
It is attached to the base of the transistor and to one side of the coil. That side is what is called the base coil.

Do you have the twisted pair going into the pos battery rail?

The other wire from the bifilar goes to the emitter of the transistor and remember to jumper that to the neg side of the battery rail.

Is that what you have been doing?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 25, 2009, 02:54:10 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 25, 2009, 01:59:07 PM
Really!?!

What is not happening?
The amps draw is higher with it as 2 tier. I think I posted it. Part of that extra is because the bjtl of the jt on the first level with the transistor is in its place. That always takes a big draw.

I suspect you have a file with the information I gave along with it?

In a general way, there is one circuit that involves the whole (second tier) thing - all 3/4 wires. The 2 secondary wires and the upper tier primary bifilar that goes around that toroid.

There is another circuit that involves just the base coil of the second tier and the pickup (secondary) of the first level

and a third that uses just the collector coil of the upper level and the pickup (secondary) of the first level.

Of course, they all use all 3 circuits and the pulse from the one transistor etc.

But they give out different amounts of light and turning a led around can shut off all or just one of the others.

the bjtl on the first level with the transistor is effected by only one change in the upper level. I will need to review this to give you more info.

jeanna

Jeanna

Sorry

I was focusing on other things when you came up with the idea

Then I switched to my LMs
The LMs are a bit different ...... I am sure it is these differences that are the problem.
I do understand how your 2 tier works
Maybe I coiuld get it working if I was trying single LEDs ..........but I am working with a LM that is about 200V with no load ....... With my LED array it is usually around 100 V ...... The tank circuit sets a narrow range where the LEDs will light ..... IF I could get them to light with no tank I think your 2 tier might work .
I am going to stay with LMs because I have things I want to try that would not be practical with toroids

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 25, 2009, 03:02:36 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 25, 2009, 02:42:50 PM
Pretty funny, Bill. ;D

Of course that is possible. But without some kind of description, it is really hard.

So, now you have the base resistor in the right place.
It is attached to the base of the transistor and to one side of the coil. That side is what is called the base coil.

Do you have the twisted pair going into the pos battery rail?

The other wire from the bifilar goes to the emitter of the transistor and remember to jumper that to the neg side of the battery rail.

Is that what you have been doing?

jeanna

Yes I have the twisted ends plugged into the positive battery rail I have the other wire of the coil going to the collector and the negative battery rail going to the emitter? Is that wrong?

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Thaelin on May 25, 2009, 03:18:24 PM

Since we are off on a tangent so to speak about EB's. How many here remember the old 35mm projectors? They used carbon rods to make the arc. They are cased in copper clad but can be pealed off to expose the carbon. Very few in use today but you can still get them. You may get lucky and the place give you a real deal just to take the box. ;)

thay

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on May 25, 2009, 04:25:03 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 25, 2009, 02:16:43 PM
Here is my container for my replication of Wilby's Light. I just got it today but, it is full and I will have to work on emptying it. This is the part of experimentation that most people don't see. It is all of the hard work that goes on behind the scenes that never gets put into any video. This will be my sacrifice to our JT topic. When I get it done, and get it built, I will make a video. I could not find a Coor's keg so it will not be an exact replication. I hope it works anyway.

Bill

cheers to your behind the scenes hard work and dedication bill. i think you should make it part of a video ;)
i am still looking for a o'doule's keg to swap for the coors... carefully change the 'd' to a 'j' for a o'joules light :D
thanks for that idea jeanna!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 25, 2009, 04:39:27 PM

@all

I wound a new toroid and its working well. I can light a neon now at full brightness! Here is a pic of my mini lab setup that I used this weekend.

Its back to work tomorrow but I feel with everyone's help on here and a very special thanks to jeanna! I have made some good progress!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 25, 2009, 04:46:37 PM

@altrez - looks good!

Quote from: altrez on May 25, 2009, 03:02:36 PM
-Altrez

Everything there is right.
But is it now different since you put the 1k pot in the right place?
Maybe you fixed whatever it was that was making the problem.

I am assuming the overheating of the transistor has stopped?
THAT is what concerns me.

It is probably on too much. I mean for the heat. Or something is shorting somewhere. You did get good voltage.

I added an inductor a week ago ( across the base resistor) and the voltage was good but for the first time a transistor got hot. I looked at it for a while then realized that I was not employing the resistor, or if I was, only a tiny bit.

The inductor was an easier path than the base resistor so, the base of the transistor was on all the time and it got hot. and at the same time the circuit seemed to be working.

Maybe this description will give you an idea...

@Wilby
HA :D O'Joules Hi-(V) lite.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 25, 2009, 05:08:15 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 25, 2009, 12:44:32 AM
I have noticed that the cap can't seem to collect any voltage without the diode.

Quote from: xee2 on May 25, 2009, 01:10:19 AM
That's right, no diode = no voltage on cap.

if voltage source is AC, then no DC voltage can be measured.
but you will be able to measure AC across it.

with AC, the cap is charged positive then discharged to be re-charged negative and vice versa.

if you disconnect the cap exactly at the peeks, you will be able to measure that peek DC voltage in the cap.

with pulsed DC, you will always be able to measure DC in the cap.
it will smoot the pulses tho.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 25, 2009, 05:12:38 PM

@jeanna

The transistor is no longer getting hot :) However I am now working with more then one pickup coil and I have discovered that I can not run two pickup coils at the same time. For example if I Hook up the big pickup coil to a neon it powers it right up. As soon as I add my led bank to the second pickup coil the neon goes out and the LEDs light right up and visa versa if I plug the neon in after the leds they go out but the neon comes on?.

Can you not have 2 or 3 pickup coils all running at the same time? Or will only one work?

Thanks!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 25, 2009, 05:20:27 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on May 25, 2009, 05:08:15 PM

if voltage source is AC, then no DC voltage can be measured.
but you will be able to measure AC across it.

...

with pulsed DC, you will always be able to measure DC in the cap.
it will smoot the pulses tho.

Thank you theNOP
This is verification that what is coming off my secondaries is really ac.

Also, I didn't realize that it was proof of it, so... thanks,

@Altrez,
I bet there is a diode effect happening with the bank of leds.
If you have enough voltage, perhaps you could run another neon off the other pickup.

that would be very cool and worth finding if it will work.

(This is another reason that the 2 tier joule thief was doing something special. Every light there was a diode a led.)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 25, 2009, 05:30:36 PM

OK
I am putting a little of this 2 tier together.

If you simply put the pickup into the battery rail of a second jtc, the results are UNremarkable. The second level light is on but very dim. The voltage there seems very low.

Now, that is because it is an AC source.

So, if I put it into the 2nd circuit where that has become ac, the thing starts to work really well.
It is ac adding to ac.

And all the little areas are sort of relating to each other in a parallel way and some are brighter than others because they are getting a bigger/stronger additional inductor effect from that second toroid.

Oh coolness. -----/\/\/\/\/\/\/----- she be x-L-8-ing!

I will have another look and redraw it if it has changed since I last posted the funny drawing.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 25, 2009, 05:42:51 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 25, 2009, 05:20:27 PM
Thank you theNOP
This is verification that what is coming off my secondaries is really ac.

Also, I didn't realize that it was proof of it, so... thanks,

@Altrez,
I bet there is a diode effect happening with the bank of leds.
If you have enough voltage, perhaps you could run another neon off the other pickup.

that would be very cool and worth finding if it will work.

(This is another reason that the 2 tier joule thief was doing something special. Every light there was a diode a led.)

jeanna

It will not run a neon from the other pickup coil at the same time. Only one at a time? Can you not run more then one pickup coin at a time?

Thanks!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 25, 2009, 06:13:42 PM

Quote from: altrez on May 25, 2009, 05:42:51 PM
It will not run a neon from the other pickup coil at the same time. Only one at a time? Can you not run more then one pickup coin at a time?

Thanks!

-Altrez

One at a time as in blinking?
Yes, you you can.

edit: I added this later but it belongs here:
One day I tried it when I was doing the 2 tier to see how far I could push it. I made an extra pickup for the basic one and used it from that having nothing to do with the 2 tier, except it was on at the same time as the 2 tier and was using the same battery and transistor. It lit as many as I had on hand, around 4 or 5 yellow lights in series, too.

But there may be other factors we/I don't know about.

I remember someone saying that the neon will siphon off the extra voltage so it cannot go higher than a certain level. This is part of the reason they are used in the camera flash circuits. they flash themselves when the circuit is charged enough siphoning off the extra.

So, if your neon is siphoning off the overvoltage beyond some level there may not be enough for your bank of leds.

Does that make sense?

What happens if you use 2 banks of leds?
(ans. you have to go to the store for more fight?)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 25, 2009, 06:17:26 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 25, 2009, 05:20:27 PM
Quoteif voltage source is AC, then no DC voltage can be measured.
Thank you theNOP
This is verification that what is coming off my secondaries is really ac.

Also, I didn't realize that it was proof of it, so... thanks,

you are welcome.

xee2 simplified it, i explained it a bit more.
but by all means, it is far from being the whole thing about caps.

ex: else then there use in RLC and frequencies filters circuits,
a cap can be used to let AC through and stop DC or let DC through and stop AC by simply being connected in series or in parallel.
(across mean parallel, from one lead to somewhere else mean series.)

it can also be used as a current limiting device if you want.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 25, 2009, 06:43:10 PM

Quote from: altrez on May 25, 2009, 05:12:38 PM
@jeanna

The transistor is no longer getting hot :) However I am now working with more then one pickup coil and I have discovered that I can not run two pickup coils at the same time. For example if I Hook up the big pickup coil to a neon it powers it right up. As soon as I add my led bank to the second pickup coil the neon goes out and the LEDs light right up and visa versa if I plug the neon in after the leds they go out but the neon comes on?.

Can you not have 2 or 3 pickup coils all running at the same time? Or will only one work?

Thanks!

-Altrez

Altrez i have noticed the same effect BUT i Solved that Mystery . For me at Least. With A Variable resistor and a capacitor i i can have two secondaries with lights on each . By adjusting the Bias thus changing the frequency i can make one or two lit . . I noticed the resistance is high above 100k to light the second secondary . It might work for you . . My real Advantage is the resistor wheel that electricme(Jim) gave me. It is Great Determining the Value of a given Circuit for the best effects /ie. 5 ohms all the way up to 1 meg resistors and this baby Steps each resistor . from there its another Vr and cap to fine tune a selected resistance for a particular core and winding .I think the toroid see's the field like little rings around the toroids winding and as i adjust the resistance and frequency these little rings of energy move and oscillate in a wired magnetic pattern and either get thicker or multiply thus filling the dead zone with another secondary one it with those little energy oscillating magnetic energy rings . I can't explain it any other way and the y i did was probable wrong but the outcome looks like that . It don't make seance to me why one would light before the other light unless something like this is happening . cause you can load the secondary with many lights but the second secondary only has one light on it and dont light so its not power or current . Its got to be a moving field under the dead area of that toroid with that second secondary i think ::) ???

I got a friend sending the Sec parts . I can't wait to power it from a jt AA power unit!

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 25, 2009, 06:56:26 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 25, 2009, 06:43:10 PM
Altrez i have noticed the same effect BUT i Solved that Mystery . For me at Least. With A Variable resistor and a capacitor i i can have two secondaries with lights on each . By adjusting the Bias thus changing the frequency i can make one or two lit . . I noticed the resistance is high above 100k to light the second secondary . It might work for you . . My real Advantage is the resistor wheel that electricme(Jim) gave me. It is Great Determining the Value of a given Circuit for the best effects /ie. 5 ohms all the way up to 1 meg resistors and this baby Steps each resistor . from there its another Vr and cap to fine tune a selected resistance for a particular core and winding .

I got a friend sending the Sec parts . I can't wait to power it from a jt AA power unit!

Gadget

Hey Gadget I just noticed the same thing with a 10k pot. If I adjust the pot just right I can light everything just fine and charge a battery? Its really odd! I can also light a neon and my led bank now at the same time if I adjust the pot just right?

@jeanna

I got it to work with 3 led banks plus a second battery that's being charged at the same time! The lights are really weak now and the main battery is down to .317v under load.

I think the FEQ has something major to play here I am just not sure what? I wonder if I hooked a second JT to the battery that is being charged and then ran its secondary coils into another bank of leds would it work?

And if so would it run for the time of 1 battery or two? Or could you keep flopping the battery's around for the time < total power of two charged batters or would it run longer?

Thank you!!!!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 25, 2009, 07:33:05 PM

Quote from: altrez on May 25, 2009, 06:56:26 PM
I got it to work with 3 led banks plus a second battery that's being charged at the same time!

Well, all right!!

QuoteThe lights are really weak now and the main battery is down to .317v under load.

I think the FEQ has something major to play here I am just not sure what?

Now that you can look at it with the scope, have a peek. You can see what the frequency is doing as well as the voltage when you connect a new pickup

Here, try this.

Clip the scope to the ends of a pickup.
Now, put the wires of the other pickup on those leds and watch what happens to the volts and to the frequency. (and the shape of the wave too.)

Since you have another pickup, do it again. and again.

Please report the results.

QuoteI wonder if I hooked a second ...

Oh how I love this thread! Try it and please report!

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 25, 2009, 08:06:00 PM

@ Jeanna:

We all love you too. We are very, very glad you are here.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 25, 2009, 09:06:11 PM

i was thinking about what i said earlier about a cap being use as a current limiter device.
that made me remember that that behavior is frequency related and also dependent of it.

the higher the frequency, the more energy the capacitor will deal with.
at each cycle, the energy of the cap is changing, twice for ac, once for pulsed DC.
if the cap value is 10uF, the cap is letting 20uA per cycle for AC and 10uA for pulsed DC.

ex: for 60Hz AC, a cap of 10uF will allow 10 * 120 = 1200uA per second
for 60Hz pulsed DC, same cap value, 10 *60 = 600uA
you can calculate for a frequency of 10k ;)
note that the actual current circulating in your circuit might, or will, be limited by what your source can provide.

where i am going with this ?
first lets talk about parasitic effects.

everythings that let electricity through it have what is call parasitic capacitance and parasitic inductance to some degre.
wires, coils, antennas, neons, cfls, conducting surfaces, etc...

they are called parasitic because they are unwanted effects in most applications.
also because normaly those effect are very very very small.

some of you might have already guessed, those effects are frequency related.
the higher the frequency, the higher those parasitic effects are getting bigger.

some might remember what i have said about capacitive coupling. when powering leds, neon and cfls with only one wire.
my above explanation of parasitic capacitance apply to that phenomena of single wire power.

that parasitic capacitance and capacitive coupling can even be pushed further and power things without any wire being used.
it is as simple as having the proper potential difference between 2 points in space at the right frequency.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 25, 2009, 09:52:52 PM

@all

So far I have been running two JT's and recharging the main battery for about 1 hour. It has some very odd results. Battery's drain faster then charge faster about the same rate. Lights dim quickly then get bright again.

I am running a neon on one and 10 leds plus a battery charge on the other JT.

I also have a set of rails + - running from one JT to the other. Its a mess but It seems to be doing something.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 25, 2009, 10:19:23 PM

Thanks Bill.

Interesting thoughts theNOP. I gather one implication from this is that these parasytic devices CAN operate at very small currents, so let's push this a bit more...

So, Altrez
How are these 2 jts connected. I assume you are running them both from 1 battery and they are using the same pos and neg battery to start?

2 jt's means 2 transistors as well as 2 toroids, I guess.

Please explain how they are connected. (I know it is hard, the 2 tier is a bear to describe.)
Is it this?

QuoteI wonder if I hooked a second JT to the battery that is being charged and then ran its secondary coils into another bank of leds would it work?

And if so would it run for the time of 1 battery or two? Or could you keep flopping the battery's around for the time < total power of two charged batters or would it run longer?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 25, 2009, 10:41:37 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 25, 2009, 10:19:23 PM
Thanks Bill.

Interesting thoughts theNOP. I gather one implication from this is that these parasytic devices CAN operate at very small currents, so let's push this a bit more...

So, Altrez
How are these 2 jts connected. I assume you are running them both from 1 battery and they are using the same pos and neg battery to start?

2 jt's means 2 transistors as well as 2 toroids, I guess.

Please explain how they are connected. (I know it is hard, the 2 tier is a bear to describe.)
Is it this?thank you,

jeanna

jeanna,

Well three battery's are involved. 1 battery on each JT and one battery that is connected to a Bridge that is rectifying the AC into DC and charging the battery.

Each battery is of the same type and rechargeable. The two JT's are tied together with jumper wires. That go from the DC out from the rectifier to the + - of the secondary JT.

So far the battery's drain very fast but charge back up to about the same voltage each time.

If it works like I think it is going to work and with the results I have noticed thus far. It should keep charging the battery while draining the source battery. I have swapped out the batteries twice so far and plan for a longer run while I am asleep.

If it runs from the same two battery's all week then what would that prove? I am not sure. I do know however that it has never ran a full week from two battery's before.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 25, 2009, 11:02:23 PM

Wow that is fast.
I know you have to go back to work tomorrow morning. Some numbers together would be great, like
Volts , and amps, and frequency.

Actually, I am confused about what the second battery is doing, or what the first rectified voltage from the first pick up is adding to the second jt if there is already a battery there. I may have it pictured wrong.

BUT FIRST...

I have a question. This is easy to do.

Take out the transistor from the second level and see if the lights go out anywhere.

My 2 tier thing happened because MK1 had just said the 2N2222 could be turned around. The lights on my second level were so dim I took the transistor out to turn it around to see if that would improve it.

And the thing didn't miss a beat. Literally.

I would like to know if the same applies to what you have because I was pumping AC into my second level and you are pumping rectified DC pulses into it.

Because it is coming in in a pulsing way, I would like to know if the one transistor is enough there too.

Thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 25, 2009, 11:26:33 PM

Quote from: altrez on May 25, 2009, 10:41:37 PM
jeanna,

Well three battery's are involved. 1 battery on each JT and one battery that is connected to a Bridge that is rectifying the AC into DC and charging the battery.

Each battery is of the same type and rechargeable. The two JT's are tied together with jumper wires. That go from the DC out from the rectifier to the + - of the secondary JT.

So far the battery's drain very fast but charge back up to about the same voltage each time.

If it works like I think it is going to work and with the results I have noticed thus far. It should keep charging the battery while draining the source battery. I have swapped out the batteries twice so far and plan for a longer run while I am asleep.

If it runs from the same two battery's all week then what would that prove? I am not sure. I do know however that it has never ran a full week from two battery's before.

-Altrez

It Proves you made a close replication of my ETERNITY LIGHT :) Cept mine is miniaturized a bit smaller . aaa batterys and they are not supposed to be rechargable but they are ............runs for ??????

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on May 26, 2009, 02:26:29 AM

@bill
sorry to go so way off topic here but i thought you might enjoy this one since you like organs. your heineken keg reminded me of a beer gadget site where someone had taken a keg like yours and made it into an r2d2 droid. on the same page they had this: http://www.petersontuners.com/index.cfm?category=124&sub=209

i can see why they take two months to make, glass by glass...
99 bottles of beer on the wall ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 26, 2009, 05:29:12 AM

@ Bill
Thanks for the kind remarks, TA :)

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 25, 2009, 11:06:45 AM
Nice job on the new acquisitions.

About the carbon rods. Gadget is selling a 1/2" dia. x 12" long carbon rod and a similar sized magnesium rod on his website. Shipping down under shouldn't be too bad.

Also, if you have 20 of the smaller rods, just use some plastic tiewraps (wire ties) and band them together. I would not introduce a third metal (steel) into the mix. If I remember correctly, those rods in the D cell bats are almost 1/2" diameter. So, 30 of them banded together would be a pretty good sized mass of carbon....way bigger than my rods I am using. I would place them in the ground vertically. Man, I am guessing that would make a grouping about 6" in diameter or so. I am confident this will work well. If not, it is no problem to remove the plastic tiewraps but I am betting you won't need to.

Bill

Your grouping of several carbon rods has merit, and using plastic ties is something I had not even thought of, top marks for this Bill, I have several tie sizes here at home.
I will pond on this for awhile.

@ Gary,
Thank you for your input also, it is a matter of digesting all this and seeing which is more efficiant at making energy, perhaps a mixture of both ideas will do the job.
Very good ideas from both of you.
Thankyou.

jim

All,
My brother and I decided to visit a trailer shop, upon leaving, I mentioned to the shop owner, I was on the lookout for broken magnesium wheel rims, come out with me he said, look what he gave me, lol
Now I got a little digging to do, but first I have to remove the black and white paint to allow any telleric current to adhere itself to the "electrodes".

I put the cover on the Adj Power supply, just in case anyone was wondering about this, I might have to setup a PC 12v colling fan inside it later on.

A Question Without An Answer ;D
If 2 mice decide to eat from the same mouse trap, at the same time.
Which one tripped the trap? The one on the Left or the one on the Right?
When the trap went off, which mouse said to his off sider, thanks stupid?

I did not put a second mouse in the trap, they both really did feed off the same trap together.

Now I got to start catching up

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 26, 2009, 08:22:12 AM

Quote from: electricme on May 26, 2009, 05:29:12 AM
@ Bill
Thanks for the kind remarks, TA :)
Your grouping of several carbon rods has merit, and using plastic ties is something I had not even thought of, top marks for this Bill, I have several tie sizes here at home.
I will pond on this for awhile.

@ Gary,
Thank you for your input also, it is a matter of digesting all this and seeing which is more efficiant at making energy, perhaps a mixture of both ideas will do the job.
Very good ideas from both of you.
Thankyou.

jim

All,
My brother and I decided to visit a trailer shop, upon leaving, I mentioned to the shop owner, I was on the lookout for broken magnesium wheel rims, come out with me he said, look what he gave me, lol
Now I got a little digging to do, but first I have to remove the black and white paint to allow any telleric current to adhere itself to the "electrodes".

I put the cover on the Adj Power supply, just in case anyone was wondering about this, I might have to setup a PC 12v colling fan inside it later on.

A Question Without An Answer ;D
If 2 mice decide to eat from the same mouse trap, at the same time.
Which one tripped the trap? The one on the Left or the one on the Right?
When the trap went off, which mouse said to his off sider, thanks stupid?

I did not put a second mouse in the trap, they both really did feed off the same trap together.

Now I got to start catching up

jim

Jim . Hello mate . That is a Very Sweet Power Supply . I love it ! . And those rims . Yea .. Look this is a tip about those carbon rods . you can use one of those hose clamps that have ascrew on it to tighten thoe rods and put a wire in there to make contact . I have mentions this before as far as Carbon rods . Welding Shops have them . the are called GOUGING RODS . most are covered with Copper . It Peels off . I leave an inch on the top to solder on a lamp wire . you can Bundle several of these bu soldering them together and then use a tye wrap . This is what i use . Any welding shop or welding supplies store can get them . .

Defiantly the mouse on the left said you Dumb A** before he croked
About the Magnesium rims . I check with several sources about the content of magnesium and one guy said they are 95 percent magnesium . i have my Peugeot rims checked with a "Gun" that shoots a beam on the metal and tells what metal its made of and mine are 97. % magnesium . 3 percent Titanium silicon .so these will work Very well for an earth battery and wont degrade before were long gone and turned to dust . I have seen them in junk yards half buried for 30 years and the exposed part looks perfect and i suspect the part in the ground has only minor pitting . You are going to beat me burying My rims . I have tires on mine and have to get them off first .. I bet you will get over 500 milliamps on them and your carbon rods .
:) Also remember that old catalytic converters have platnium electrodes in them as well . it looks like honeycombs and some have platinum balls . The junk yars give a large amount of money for these and i bet the platinum will be the best electrode beyond magnesium .
Believe it or not but carbon fiber fishing rods give higher voltage but less milliamps . this is the rods used to get over 4 volts in Gregs test (ARSF)in the Black Hills of nc . His rods were 20 feet apart and he used magnesium and carbon fiber . the only thing is the ma's were down .

Gadget .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 26, 2009, 08:23:35 AM

Quote from: jeanna on May 25, 2009, 11:02:23 PM
Wow that is fast.
I know you have to go back to work tomorrow morning. Some numbers together would be great, like
Volts , and amps, and frequency.

Actually, I am confused about what the second battery is doing, or what the first rectified voltage from the first pick up is adding to the second jt if there is already a battery there. I may have it pictured wrong.

BUT FIRST...

I have a question. This is easy to do.

Take out the transistor from the second level and see if the lights go out anywhere.

My 2 tier thing happened because MK1 had just said the 2N2222 could be turned around. The lights on my second level were so dim I took the transistor out to turn it around to see if that would improve it.

And the thing didn't miss a beat. Literally.

I would like to know if the same applies to what you have because I was pumping AC into my second level and you are pumping rectified DC pulses into it.

Because it is coming in in a pulsing way, I would like to know if the one transistor is enough there too.

Thanks,

jeanna

Late for work. But yes It will work without a transistor and with AC / pulsed DC as long as you have a pulse on the toroid you can get something out of the pickup coils.

Can you re post your plans for your second tier JT I think its much like my design I have been working on and have it working now on my bench / kitchen table :)

I posted around 150 pages ago a way of adding a toroid to one leg of a lamp. I have just now got around to doing the same on the JT here are some picks of my full setup.

@gadget

did you say you had a ver-resistor that could be fine tuned for sale? This 10k pot is not going to work at very low power for tuning. I also need some low power transistors I am very close to something!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 26, 2009, 08:49:59 AM

@Jeanna
I don't know if anyone has replied to your question below, (I am so far behind now) if they have then please ignore this. :D

Quote from: jeanna on May 20, 2009, 12:30:54 PM
With 70 lamps= leds, this is probably a pair of strings in parallel. I know to keep the string from frying there is probably a resistor, but if it can light from the wall shouldn't I be able to light it with my jt?

The LED was designed as a current device, in other words, it usage was to light up using current, therefore in all the electronics data magazines, they have current limiting tables for the type of LED that one decides to use for a particular circuit.
The LED was never designed to be used for the purposes we are using it for, lighting it from a Joule Thief, and we are very very lucky that the humble LED will still work at the enormous voltages we all have shoved at it.

But, the day is going to arrive when someone (I think it already has occurred) manages to convert VHV (very High Voltages) with a bit of current, and then we all will have to think about putting a current limiting device back in the circuit.

When this happens, then we will be on the brink of getting usable power out of the Joule Thief.

jim

OOOhhhh I just noticed I'm a hero ha ha ha ............I'm past the general rank n file stage he he

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 26, 2009, 09:13:15 AM

Quote from: altrez on May 26, 2009, 08:23:35 AM
Late for work. But yes It will work without a transistor and with AC / pulsed DC as long as you have a pulse on the toroid you can get something out of the pickup coils.

Can you re post your plans for your second tier JT I think its much like my design I have been working on and have it working now on my bench / kitchen table :)

I posted around 150 pages ago a way of adding a toroid to one leg of a lamp. I have just now got around to doing the same on the JT here are some picks of my full setup.

@gadget

did you say you had a ver-resistor that could be fine tuned for sale? This 10k pot is not going to work at very low power for tuning. I also need some low power transistors I am very close to something!

no I said a very special friend . Jim sent it to me from Australia . I can get them but they are very expensive as they come from international areas . the best price i have found on a resistor wheel imported is 35 dollars . If there is an interest i can have a few imported and put them up on My site .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 26, 2009, 09:21:05 AM

@Gadget

Hello there wontalk, thanks for those very kind words, very appreceiated at this end.
Frankly I nearly missed out on getting the power supply, it was advertised as $149 then for 3 weeks there was a sale on it, reduced to $99, the DSE agent in Dalby decided to not honour the discount, so I just hopped in the chariot and drove to Toowoomba and got it from there.

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 26, 2009, 08:22:12 AM
Jim . Hello mate . That is a Very Sweet Power Supply . I love it ! . And those rims . Yea .. Look this is a tip about those carbon rods . you can use one of those hose clamps that have ascrew on it to tighten thoe rods and put a wire in there to make contact . I have mentions this before as far as Carbon rods . Welding Shops have them . the are called GOUGING RODS . most are covered with Copper . It Peels off . I leave an inch on the top to solder on a lamp wire . you can Bundle several of these bu soldering them together and then use a tye wrap . This is what i use . Any welding shop or welding supplies store can get them . .

Defiantly the mouse on the left said you Dumb A** before he croked
About the Magnesium rims . I check with several sources about the content of magnesium and one guy said they are 95 percent magnesium . i have my Peugeot rims checked with a "Gun" that shoots a beam on the metal and tells what metal its made of and mine are 97. % magnesium . 3 percent Titanium silicon .so these will work Very well for an earth battery and wont degrade before were long gone and turned to dust . I have seen them in junk yards half buried for 30 years and the exposed part looks perfect and i suspect the part in the ground has only minor pitting . You are going to beat me burying My rims . I have tires on mine and have to get them off first .. I bet you will get over 500 milliamps on them and your carbon rods .
:) Also remember that old catalytic converters have platnium electrodes in them as well . it looks like honeycombs and some have platinum balls . The junk yars give a large amount of money for these and i bet the platinum will be the best electrode beyond magnesium .
Believe it or not but carbon fiber fishing rods give higher voltage but less milliamps . this is the rods used to get over 4 volts in Gregs test (ARSF)in the Black Hills of nc . His rods were 20 feet apart and he used magnesium and carbon fiber . the only thing is the ma's were down .

Gadget .

I will see about getting some gouging rods soonest as I can, it will be a lot easier handling 6 -7 of these than 30 smaller ones together, the advantage of using carbon rods this way is there will be a larger surface area exposed.

I laughed and laughed at the way you discribed which mouse was at fault, I ended up with a coughing fit, see dead mouses can bite lol.

The catalitic converter thing could be a good thing also, you have some bright ideas Gadget

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 26, 2009, 10:16:00 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 26, 2009, 09:13:15 AM
no I said a very special friend . Jim sent it to me from Australia . I can get them but they are very expensive as they come from international areas . the best price i have found on a resistor wheel imported is 35 dollars . If there is an interest i can have a few imported and put them up on My site .

I might be interested :) I looked at the CD you sent me when I ordered that fuji kit from your website and there looks to be plans on it for your ETERNITY LIGHT. They are password protected. How much do you sell the plans for? I would like to see how you did it. And if I did something that was close.

I also plan on ordering some of your Germanium Can transistor to see how they work.

Take Care,

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 26, 2009, 11:29:45 AM

Quote from: altrez on May 26, 2009, 10:16:00 AM
I might be interested :) I looked at the CD you sent me when I ordered that fuji kit from your website and there looks to be plans on it for your ETERNITY LIGHT. They are password protected. How much do you sell the plans for? I would like to see how you did it. And if I did something that was close.

I also plan on ordering some of your Germanium Can transistor to see how they work.

Take Care,

-Altrez

Ah i didnt know you were one of the kit buyers . I will give you a password for the plan on your next order and i am also giving to forum members ONLY for the months of june and up to july 5th a gift of your choice of four items . Either an Expensive germanium for low powered Jts or a CIS 5 volts solar panel OR a Free Curtisium Glass Glow tile . aquablue , or a 20000mcd white led. so if you do order State your forum Name and your choice of one of the 4 gifts and mention this post # 6361 .
I'm not out to make a killin guys just i have some stuff you might be interesed in and you are Helping Me and My daughter out as we are in hard times @ the moment . Hey I appreciate everyone one of you who tolerate and put up with me . Also know that you guys are in Our prayers even if some of you think its not the appropriate place to mention such things . Thank you Pirate for letting me Have a Spot here . You are a good friend and i value your friendship with great weight .

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 26, 2009, 11:32:26 AM

@ Al:

No thanks are needed. We are all in this together.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 26, 2009, 12:06:02 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 26, 2009, 11:29:45 AM
Ah i didnt know you were one of the kit buyers . I will give you a password for the plan on your next order and i am also giving to forum members ONLY for the months of june and up to july 5th a gift of your choice of four items . Either an Expensive germanium for low powered Jts or a CIS 5 volts solar panel OR a Free Curtisium Glass Glow tile . aquablue , or a 20000mcd white led. so if you do order State your forum Name and your choice of one of the 4 gifts and mention this post # 6361 .
I'm not out to make a killin guys just i have some stuff you might be interesed in and you are Helping Me and My daughter out as we are in hard times @ the moment . Hey I appreciate everyone one of you who tolerate and put up with me . Also know that you guys are in Our prayers even if some of you think its not the appropriate place to mention such things . Thank you Pirate for letting me Have a Spot here . You are a good friend and a i value your friendship with great weight .

Gadget

Hey Gadget,

I have a little girl as well shes 10. I will order my earth battery setup from you. And as much as I can when you have kits / parts that I need.

God Bless,

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 26, 2009, 01:41:44 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 26, 2009, 08:22:12 AM
Jim . Hello mate . That is a Very Sweet Power Supply . I love it ! . And those rims . Yea .. Look this is a tip about those carbon rods . you can use one of those hose clamps that have ascrew on it to tighten thoe rods and put a wire in there to make contact . I have mentions this before as far as Carbon rods . Welding Shops have them . the are called GOUGING RODS . most are covered with Copper . It Peels off . I leave an inch on the top to solder on a lamp wire . you can Bundle several of these bu soldering them together and then use a tye wrap . This is what i use . Any welding shop or welding supplies store can get them . .

Defiantly the mouse on the left said you Dumb A** before he croked
About the Magnesium rims . I check with several sources about the content of magnesium and one guy said they are 95 percent magnesium . i have my Peugeot rims checked with a "Gun" that shoots a beam on the metal and tells what metal its made of and mine are 97. % magnesium . 3 percent Titanium silicon .so these will work Very well for an earth battery and wont degrade before were long gone and turned to dust . I have seen them in junk yards half buried for 30 years and the exposed part looks perfect and i suspect the part in the ground has only minor pitting . You are going to beat me burying My rims . I have tires on mine and have to get them off first .. I bet you will get over 500 milliamps on them and your carbon rods .
:) Also remember that old catalytic converters have platnium electrodes in them as well . it looks like honeycombs and some have platinum balls . The junk yars give a large amount of money for these and i bet the platinum will be the best electrode beyond magnesium .
Believe it or not but carbon fiber fishing rods give higher voltage but less milliamps . this is the rods used to get over 4 volts in Gregs test (ARSF)in the Black Hills of nc . His rods were 20 feet apart and he used magnesium and carbon fiber . the only thing is the ma's were down .

Gadget .

I think using old mag wheels for earth batterys is a great idea .....
I know that alot of the modern so called mag wheels are really aluminum .
Does anyone know of a quick and simple way to tell the difference between magnesium and aluminum?

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 26, 2009, 01:55:50 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on May 26, 2009, 01:41:44 PM
I think using old mag wheels for earth batterys is a great idea .....
I know that alot of the modern so called mag wheels are really aluminum .
Does anyone know of a quick and simple way to tell the difference between magnesium and aluminum?

gary

I have a friend in the scrap metal Business . He has a Gun that Identifies the metal and the content . After he lost so much money on catalytic converters he spent the 45000.00 dollars and got the "gun" as he calles it or the technicial name X-RAY FLUORESCENCE ANALYZER . He will shoot it for free and print the results . . Mine are tested and they are good magnesium . Without it you can scratch a bit off in a pile of shavings ,put a lighter on it and see if it flashes up and burns blinding bright . If yes then magnesium Magnesium is Highly Flammable and burns Brilliant White once lit !! Also Magnesium Is dull Grayish .Aluminum is shine yer 8)
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on May 26, 2009, 04:49:14 PM

http://www.nuenergy.org/alt/page_36_from_harnessing_cosmic_energy.htm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 26, 2009, 05:06:40 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 25, 2009, 10:19:23 PM
Interesting thoughts theNOP. I gather one implication from this is that these parasytic devices CAN operate at very small currents, so let's push this a bit more...

you seem to mix up the 2 things, so just to clarify.
it is parasitic effects, not parasitic devices.

the current limiting device i spoke of is a simple capacitor.
ex: let say you need to limit the current circulating in a circuit to 100 Watts.
you know you can use a resistor for this, but you would need a 100 Watts resistor to do this.
that also mean lot of loss by heat.
you can use a 100 Watts light bulb as a resistor.
but you can also use a capacitor to do the same thing without the heat loss.

a capacitor can only charge to it rated values so you can use that fact to your advantage.
1 Farad = 1 Ampere.
at 120 volts @ 100 Watts = .83 amps
since 120 volts is AC @ 60Hz, .83 / 120 = a .0069 F capacitor would limit the power circulating in your circuit to 100 Watts.

for pulsed DC it would be .83 / frequency
for AC it is .83 / (frequency * 2)

parasitic effects:
any conducting materials have the capability of generating a mag field and store charges.

a wire will store charges just like a cap, and the current will create a mag field, when current circulate through it.
but in the case of a wire we are talking of something like a few pF and less per inch, for copper circuit board traces.
the capacitance is depend on the distance between the conducting materials and also on the dielectric material inbetween them.
the current is dependent on the capacitance and the frequency as per the example above.

Parasitic_capacitance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitic_capacitance)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 26, 2009, 06:03:20 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on May 26, 2009, 04:49:14 PM
http://www.nuenergy.org/alt/page_36_from_harnessing_cosmic_energy.htm (http://www.nuenergy.org/alt/page_36_from_harnessing_cosmic_energy.htm)

interesting.
that is a theory that is as good as any other.

ask any EE or physicists what is inrush current.
you will be suprised by theirs answeres.

the effect is well known but no one know, why and how, it happen for sure.
at least no one has prouve any of the hypotesis about it with replicable experiences.

it is there no matter what, use it or try to minimise it, it is up to you.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 26, 2009, 07:57:36 PM

@all

I am still running on the same two battery's from last night! I have one charging while the other one is powering the JT when the lights go out I switch places with the battery. It seems to be working better then expected.

I set up another test rig when I had an idea. Why not use the jt to charge two battery's at the same time. So I tried it and it works! I also tried using one of the charged battery's from the JT to run a CFL from a fuji mod and it worked! So here is what I have done with my setup.

1. Charged a 1.2V battery and it used it to power the JT while I charged the first source battery. This has been running for 24 hours with swapping.

2. Used a charged battery from a JT to run a fuji circuit and power a modified CFL.

3. Ran 10 LEDS the whole time I was testing.

Now what I have noticed is that if the LEDS go out. I can adjust the 10k POT and they will come back on. And my rectified DC voltage will jump back up.

I have also added a second Toroid to my main circuit wrapped around one of the pickup coils leads. That one has its own pickup coil that I am using to power its own 4 volt LED.

So what do you guys think?

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 26, 2009, 08:58:44 PM

Quote from: altrez on May 26, 2009, 07:57:36 PM
@all

I am still running on the same two battery's from last night! I have one charging while the other one is powering the JT when the lights go out I switch places with the battery. It seems to be working better then expected.

I set up another test rig when I had an idea. Why not use the jt to charge two battery's at the same time. So I tried it and it works! I also tried using one of the charged battery's from the JT to run a CFL from a fuji mod and it worked! So here is what I have done with my setup.

1. Charged a 1.2V battery and it used it to power the JT while I charged the first source battery. This has been running for 24 hours with swapping.

2. Used a charged battery from a JT to run a fuji circuit and power a modified CFL.

3. Ran 10 LEDS the whole time I was testing.

Now what I have noticed is that if the LEDS go out. I can adjust the 10k POT and they will come back on. And my rectified DC voltage will jump back up.

I have also added a second Toroid to my main circuit wrapped around one of the pickup coils leads. That one has its own pickup coil that I am using to power its own 4 volt LED.

So what do you guys think?

-Altrez

Altrez:

Good going there! I have no idea why what you are doing appears to work but, I am impressed with your results. Please keep us posted on how this works over time as I think this could very well be an important discovery you have made.

@ All:

I just had the nicest phone conversation with Jim (Electicme) from Australia. He, like Jeanna, said it was about time for me to start using my scope. I told him what was holding me back was that I was afraid of frying something by having something set wrong. He said, and I quote, "No worries mate", and had me fire up the scope using one of my joule thief circuit where I used the 2n3904, 1k resistor and a ferrite bead.

Well, it was not long before I had a very nice wave form on the screen with Jim's help. He had me throwing stitches and moving the settings and.....nothing blew up. I hope to post a screen shot of this later when I get time.

So, a big thank you to Jim for getting me over my fear of doing something wrong with the scope and damaging it. I had already set the capacitance of the probes, and also calibrated everything according to the manual. That was as far as I got, until today. Now, it is just a question of using it, and playing with it and learning it.

Thank you Jim!!!!!!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 26, 2009, 09:24:24 PM

[quote author=altrez link=topic=6123.msg182766#msg182766

Now what I have noticed is that if the LEDS go out. I can adjust the 10k POT and they will come back on. And my rectified DC voltage will jump back up.

[/quote]

-Altrez

That is what my JTs are doing too.

I am pretty sure that it is drifting out of resonance .
WIth mine the output voltage is really low .....5 to 10 V untill it hits resonace .......then it jumps 150 volts or more.
WHen the volts go up the battery draw goes down .

I can keep mine charging as long as I tweek it every few hours .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 26, 2009, 09:37:49 PM

@Bill

Thank you:) gadget figured it as well with his E-LIGHT. I am sure you will have fun with your scope! jeanna helped me with mine. We have the same type and let me say once again THANK YOU JEANNA!

I am not sure but I think I have figured out something. You can spike the frequencies of the JT circuit and keep getting different results. I am not sure why. Its easy to reproduce my results all you need to do is put a 10 k pot on the base take a pickup coil and rectify the DC and put a Multimeter on it and add some leds to a different pickup coil.

Watch the voltage on the multimeter when it gets low adjust the pot and watch the LEDS get bright and the DC voltage rise.

I am now on my 6 cycle each time I can bring the battery up to over 1 volt at that point I swap. A very interesting thing I just discovered is that I can run a small DC motor from a pickup coil that on the second toroid with a diode bridge. This si the first time I have been able to run anything other then LEDS / NEONS and I am very excited.

I really need to thank jeanna one more time. She asked me last night to do a simple test and it led me down this new path. I have tested this 10 different ways. I have a scope multimeter's control groups setup with different JTs and well I am fairly certain that this will keep working all week.

Now I used this method to charge a 330v 120uF cap with the fuji circuit and it worked great. I let the source battery drain to .285 with a draw and during the swap it read .880 out of the circuit.

I let it charge to 1.070 and swapped the source battery had drained to .330. I swapped them and got it back up to 1.082.

I will run tests all week and post my results.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 26, 2009, 09:40:31 PM

@gary

That's awesome! I am seeing the exact same thing. with my setup. I am so glad someone else is as well :) Do you know what frequency your JT is at when its resonating?

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 26, 2009, 10:23:28 PM

@ All:

Here is a scope shot of my JT ferrite bead circuit. Again, this is the 2n3904 with the 1k resistor on a ferrite bead.

Thanks again to Jim, who held my hand and led me to get these first scope shots. (First of my life!!!)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 26, 2009, 10:24:45 PM

Looks good Bill!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 26, 2009, 10:24:59 PM

@Bill and All,

Thanks Bill, you are very welcome, glad I could help you.
After we hung up, I went back through the steps I had taken you through, took some photos of the wave forms and I will post them here to give you a better idea of what was hapenning at my end.

BTW, in the middle of this exercise, a bird decided to take a dive down my stainless steel chimney flue so I let it out at intermission, Bill could hear it flapping around in side the tubeing ha ha.

OK all, the following photos are mainly for Bills benifit, but they relate to the Joule Thief (basic model) so here is what I was seeing and describing to Bill, walking him through his/my CRO settings
These will not be identical to those that Bill saw, as we have different JT configurations, but will give an "indication" on what one should see displayed on their CROs.

In all waveforms, the earth lead is connected to the Battery Negative / earth reference point.
The CRO point, being set at X10.

The first 3 jpgs are the waveforms when the probe is connected to the Transistor Collector.
earth.

0787.jpg CRO probe connected on transistors emittor leg
0783.jpg = Volts/Div = 20mV Time/Div = 1 uS
0784.jpg = Volts/Div = 50mV Time/Div = .5uS
0785.jpg = Volts/Div = 10mV Time/Div = .5uS

0786.jpg About the best I could do showing the layout of my CROs switch settings

0788.jpg CROs probe on transistors base lead
0789.jpg = Volts/Div = 50mV Time/Div = 1uS
0792.jpg = Volts/Div = 5mV Time/Div =.5uS

Bill hope these are of some help to you.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 26, 2009, 10:27:48 PM

@ Jim:

Evidently we posted at the same time. Go back up a post and check out my scope shot photos. They are very similar to some of the pics you posted. Thank you again, this is so cool!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on May 26, 2009, 10:50:24 PM

IST .... IS HAPPY TO SEE.... 8)

ARE WE READY FOR THE IST EATHER SPINNERS ... ?!?!?!

RUNNING ON MY ORBIT ENGERY ?

8)

WELL I GUESS YOU BETTER RINGGGG MY DOOR BELL WHEN YOU GONNA RING IT WHEN YOU GONNA RINGGGG IT ?!?!?!?!

THE WHITE STRIPES ...

YOU WOULDNT BELEAVE THE REALITY OF MY DOOR BELL

SO YOU MUST LIVE IT !

8)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpwDv2ZFsIQ&feature=related

WELL WHERES THE NEXT SH!FT WITH YOUR KIDS..
ITS NOT THE MAN IN MY LIFE I KNOW

I BEEN GOING WITH MY MISTERY MISS
AS I WAS FIRSTLY ON WITH THE SHOW ..

TAKE BACK WHAT YOU SAID LITTLE GIRL ...
AND WELL YOUR AT IT TAKE YOURSELF BACK TOO!

I WISH I COULD SHARE THE REALITY OF THIS SONG WITH THIS WORLD..

ONCE UPON A DAY!!

IST

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIf3a72f4lo

IM RIGHT @ HOME ..... ;) ;D 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 26, 2009, 11:10:21 PM

@ Altrez

I'm sure it wont be long before you will become an expert with the Velloman scope, I saw an identical one in Jaycar when I was in Brisbane just 2 days ago, I'm very sure Jeanna will be able to teach you well in it's usage, well done Jeanna.

Al, many many many (I lost count) moons ago I was powering a huge 5 inch torid in a similar fashion as you are doing.
I used the secondary of the Joule Thief to power up the second torids primary, which it's secondary was rectified, fed into a cap and I managed to get a 12v DC fan to spin up but it would stop after a few seconds.
It seems you been able to get more energy out of your setup, well done.

I made a TinyWeinyVideo, and posted it here on this forum, so I can understand you being "excited" at your success, Bill's a bit excited isn't he he he, don't think he will get quality sleep tonight as he has found out what his cro can do now.

I still have my original setup, I will post a photo of it so you can compare it to yours.

@ Gadget,
Thanks you for all the good references to my little gift to you, thats OK, no worries mate, if anyone wanted to avail themselves of one, see Gadget, he swares/raves by it ha ha, plus, you carn't have enough tools to do the job at hand.

jim

@Altrez
here are a couple of photos of my setups.
0793.jpg = My 5" toroid which I see you have almost replicated the winding positions to mine.
0794.jpg = This is the setup I used to drive a 12v DC fan motor, but I only could get to run a few seconds.
The toroid is a specially wound one, it has 12 "outs" or "taps", with this I can "select" any of the 12 energys avaliable to play with.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 26, 2009, 11:39:07 PM

@MK1
Hi Mark, thank you for posting this very interesting link, it holds several keys within its information.

Quote from: Mk1 on May 26, 2009, 04:49:14 PM
http://www.nuenergy.org/alt/page_36_from_harnessing_cosmic_energy.htm

I would recomend this to all, but you will have to do a google name search to locate a indepth item.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 26, 2009, 11:45:45 PM

@ electricme

Nice photos. Here is a little annotation.

EDIT: Can you use the same circuit and take a scope shot with a capacitor across the base resistor to see what that does?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 27, 2009, 01:37:37 AM

@Xee2
Sure can xee, I already tried this a while ago, lets see.

Quote from: xee2 on May 26, 2009, 11:45:45 PM
@ electricme
EDIT: Can you use the same circuit and take a scope shot with a capacitor across the base resistor to see what that does?

OK I took 4 more snap shots.

Switch is in ON
0796.jpg = Top view of the JT, capacitor is seen accros resistor. Switch is in ON/Closed position.
0797.jpg = Waveform is the same as I took in photo 0783.jpg.
Green LED is bright

Switch is OFF
0798.jpg = Top view again, showing switch in OFF position, capacitor is out of circuit.
0799.jpg = Waveform is now much different, bottom of trace is flat, whilst top is curved.
Green LED is Dull.

The probe was connected to the transistors emittor.

I next connected the probe to the BASE of the transistor, photos I will do before next post, the surprises continues ha ha.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 27, 2009, 01:45:14 AM

Wow, awesome everybody!!
Thank you Jim for giving Bill a hand.

Nice pics, Bill. Isn't this fun?

Jim, after the switch broke, I thought you kind of put that biggo away. I am glad you will bring it out again.

Altrez,
This is very cool. I think you are using one big toroid for all this. Is this correct?
Mine should be here soon, I hope. If I remember right, the biggest one I ordered was 2 1/2 inches.
I will get that pic for you in a day or so. I went into the garden today and well, it is what I did today.

Bill, Try this:
Wrap a secondary of about 10 turns of 30 gauge wire around your joule thief and instead of using the battery for ground, clip the clip on one wire end and the probe on the other wire end. (that is, both ends of the secondary pickup)

I think you will see (literally) what is so exciting about the secondary pickup on these jt circuits.

Now unwrap 5 of the turns and make this little pickup go back and return to where it started. And look. It is really different.

Once you make a MK1 style, you will 'see' why they are so excellent especially compared to a single direction secondary.
AND, unlike me (and altrez) , you can really share this with the group here.

What a great day everyone!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 27, 2009, 02:15:36 AM

@Xee2
@all
These following tests are to compliment the last tests Xee2 asked me to do for him which was the signal on the Emittor of the transistor.

This series is for the signal to the BASE leg of the transistor.

Here is a set of tests/photos I just ran, they show what occurs when the capacitor is inserted in the circuit and what happens when it is left out of the circuit. ;)

0800.jpg = Probe tip on transistors base leg

Switch is OFF (NO CAP)
0801.jpg = All you can see is a continous streem of pulses about 1/5th of a volt.
My cro is only 10MHz so a 20MHz cro or higher would be needed to see further in this streem of pulses.

Switch is ON (CAP in Circuit)
0802.jpg = The waveform can be seen showing the pulses entering the transistor base leg.
0803.jpg = This is the closest I could get to showing the bottom of the pulse itself. this is where the transistor has turned off, the wave has collapsed, and recovery is beginning.
0804.jpg = Similar to 0802.jpg, but showing just 1 pulse cycle.
0805.jpg = This is the pulse streem entering the transistor base as seen by the cro.

Everyone, please remember that these cro shots reflect what is happening with my JT, as we all have different JT replications, different wire sizes, different toroids etc, these waveforms of mine will only be good for an indication, to allow you to understand what is actually going on. :)

jim

I forgot to mention the transistor is a 58050 I took from a solar light.
The cap is a ceramic 102k (tiny looking flat brown disk thingie)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 27, 2009, 02:37:15 AM

@ electricme

Photos look great. My interpretation of photo 799 (I assume that has the capacitor across the base resistor) is that the capacitor is slowing down the turn off of the transistor. Since the magnitude of the voltage spike is less when the rate of change of current is less, then this would produce a lower voltage spike. And since the amount of voltage induced in the pickup coil is also less with a slower rate of change of current, there will also be less voltage across the pickup coil. However, I do not see anything that would indicate why adding the capacitor across the base resistor decreases the battery drain (which is the reason I put a capacitor across the base resistor).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 27, 2009, 03:11:54 AM

@Altrez

Quote from: altrez on May 26, 2009, 09:37:49 PM
A very interesting thing I just discovered is that I can run a small DC motor from a pickup coil that on the second toroid with a diode bridge. This si the first time I have been able to run anything other then LEDS / NEONS and I am very excited.
Altrez

Yep, ME TOOO, I wanna see a photo if this is possible, could you discribe the winding secondary please.

I have a small tiny inci wincy electric motor, smallest I have eva seen, its the tail rotor in a electric powered helicopter, I think I will raid it and connect it to my JT and see what happens, he he.

OK see if you can find it

jim

0808.jpg = tiny electric tail rotor motor close up
0806.jpg = small chopper, I hid it in plane sight
0807.jpg = Now where is the small chopper?

I been in the garden also today, I burried a chunk of aluminium, upon testing, it comes up with nothing, zero, zilch, hmmmmmmmmmmmm. This is where I have my earth battery, plates of iron, lead, copper and carbon, now 2 choppers are in the mix.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 27, 2009, 03:18:37 AM

@ electricme

Thanks for taking all of the photos. Photo 801 does not make sense since the collector has to turn on and off at the same rate as the base. I think this oscillation is not present in the normal opperation of the JT but rather is caused by the scope probe interacting with the base. I think more data will have to be taken before the function of the base resistor capacitor can be understood. Photo 802 seems to match what I would expect in that it looks like the turn on of the transistor is being delayed.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 27, 2009, 06:56:53 AM

Quote from: electricme on May 26, 2009, 11:10:21 PM
@ Altrez

I'm sure it wont be long before you will become an expert with the Velloman scope, I saw an identical one in Jaycar when I was in Brisbane just 2 days ago, I'm very sure Jeanna will be able to teach you well in it's usage, well done Jeanna.

Al, many many many (I lost count) moons ago I was powering a huge 5 inch torid in a similar fashion as you are doing.
I used the secondary of the Joule Thief to power up the second torids primary, which it's secondary was rectified, fed into a cap and I managed to get a 12v DC fan to spin up but it would stop after a few seconds.
It seems you been able to get more energy out of your setup, well done.

I made a TinyWeinyVideo, and posted it here on this forum, so I can understand you being "excited" at your success, Bill's a bit excited isn't he he he, don't think he will get quality sleep tonight as he has found out what his cro can do now.

I still have my original setup, I will post a photo of it so you can compare it to yours.

@ Gadget,
Thanks you for all the good references to my little gift to you, thats OK, no worries mate, if anyone wanted to avail themselves of one, see Gadget, he swares/raves by it ha ha, plus, you carn't have enough tools to do the job at hand.

jim

@Altrez
here are a couple of photos of my setups.
0793.jpg = My 5" toroid which I see you have almost replicated the winding positions to mine.
0794.jpg = This is the setup I used to drive a 12v DC fan motor, but I only could get to run a few seconds.
The toroid is a specially wound one, it has 12 "outs" or "taps", with this I can "select" any of the 12 energys avaliable to play with.

jim

Wow we have almost the exact same setup! I have been running all night and its still charging :) How did you set your cap up on your pickup coil?

What type of motor did you run? Did it have a load? It seems like the winding has a lot to do with how well the toroid will perform.

I will take some pics tonight. One thing I might also add is I am really stress testing the battery's lol. They have no time to rest between swaps. If I let them rest a few hours I am sure they would perform even better.

Take Care,

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 27, 2009, 07:38:36 AM

@Xee2,
Nice work with working out what is going on with the running of my JT, BTW, this was my very first JT, my first attempt ever, there is no secondary winding, just the Bifilar wires.

Just maybe the magnetic field within the toroid is influencing the turn "on" time lag, coupled with the cap. I wound every bit of wire I could fit on the toroid, ha ha, well in these early days we all were stabbing in the dark, and just to get the LED to light up was a real achievement.

This circuits History.
I decided to soup this one up by adding a switch on the power supply, added a adjustable resister in series with the 1.2v battery, put a switch at the LEDs so I could switch a Green LED or a Red LED and a switch to put a cap across the 1K ohm resistor.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 27, 2009, 08:38:34 AM

Quote from: electricme on May 26, 2009, 10:24:59 PM
@Bill and All,

Thanks Bill, you are very welcome, glad I could help you.
After we hung up, I went back through the steps I had taken you through, took some photos of the wave forms and I will post them here to give you a better idea of what was hapenning at my end.

BTW, in the middle of this exercise, a bird decided to take a dive down my stainless steel chimney flue so I let it out at intermission, Bill could hear it flapping around in side the tubeing ha ha.

OK all, the following photos are mainly for Bills benifit, but they relate to the Joule Thief (basic model) so here is what I was seeing and describing to Bill, walking him through his/my CRO settings
These will not be identical to those that Bill saw, as we have different JT configurations, but will give an "indication" on what one should see displayed on their CROs.

In all waveforms, the earth lead is connected to the Battery Negative / earth reference point.
The CRO point, being set at X10.

The first 3 jpgs are the waveforms when the probe is connected to the Transistor Collector.
earth.

0787.jpg CRO probe connected on transistors emittor leg
0783.jpg = Volts/Div = 20mV Time/Div = 1 uS
0784.jpg = Volts/Div = 50mV Time/Div = .5uS
0785.jpg = Volts/Div = 10mV Time/Div = .5uS

0786.jpg About the best I could do showing the layout of my CROs switch settings

0788.jpg CROs probe on transistors base lead
0789.jpg = Volts/Div = 50mV Time/Div = 1uS
0792.jpg = Volts/Div = 5mV Time/Div =.5uS

Bill hope these are of some help to you.

jim

TY this is actually some scope shots i wanted a while back! thanks! this will help me a lot!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 27, 2009, 08:47:08 AM

@Altrez,
You are doing much better with your experiments, than I did with my setup, but I can see you are on the same plane of thought I have had previously.
This brings up a point I have noticed through out this thread, several of us here at times have been replicating without knowing someone else was thinking or had done a previous work, and it is almost identical, I think this is an indication that we are heading in the right directions.
Congrads Al on being able to recharge your batteries, that in itself is a big leep forward.

Quote from: altrez on May 27, 2009, 06:56:53 AM
Wow we have almost the exact same setup! I have been running all night and its still charging :) How did you set your cap up on your pickup coil?

What type of motor did you run? Did it have a load? It seems like the winding has a lot to do with how well the toroid will perform.
Take Care,
-Altrez

The cap I used was a 35v DC 1000uF.
I wound a many many turns secondary and made a full wave bridge rectifier using 4 x 1N4004 diodes, the cap went on this output, then I soldered a switch (I just love switches) to the 12vDC CPU fan. When the cap charged up, I pressed trhe switch and the contents of the cap discharged into the fan.

I also experimented with trying to harness some radant energy by dumping the cap contents into a buzzer coil I modified, the coil worked, but not as well as I expected it to, but this has scope for further looking into.

This experiment I made was in the early days of this forum thread, no-one else at that time had progressed thus far and I suppose I just ran outa steem, speaking of steam, I wonder what IST is up to these days?

hooroo Al

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 27, 2009, 08:51:38 AM

@ Artic-Knight,

You are more than welcome. :D

Quote from: Artic_Knight on May 27, 2009, 08:38:34 AM
TY this is actually some scope shots i wanted a while back! thanks! this will help me a lot!

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 27, 2009, 09:10:41 AM

@Bill,
Nice 1st scope shot Bill, although I think I replied previously, get to know the scopes settings, don't forget to jot them down to be used as a bench line in case you carnt find the magic trace line, don't worry, this has happened to the best scope drivers, even me.

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 26, 2009, 10:23:28 PM
@ All:

Here is a scope shot of my JT ferrite bead circuit. Again, this is the 2n3904 with the 1k resistor on a ferrite bead.

Thanks again to Jim, who held my hand and led me to get these first scope shots. (First of my life!!!)

Bill

Awww you is so kind Bill ha ha, seriously though, this is the only scope shot you will ever remember as it is your first one.

Just don't be in too much of a hurry to see what the ground telleric currents are doing, they will drive you bonkers trying to figure them out, I know I tried and gave up in the end, but this is where Al and Jeanna will have the edge over us, with their hand held scopes.

One minute they make sence, then right before your very eyes they alter all by them selves, the wave form gets bigger and bigger, then gets smaller and smaller, it can happen slowly, fast, or stay static. Real funny stuff this.
At lest when all you scope drivers are going troppo, trying to figure out earth battery stuff, I will have a little chuckle to myself, you will know what I was going through last year ROFL

Goodnight all, this has been a fun day 4 me, and I havent been able to play catchup yet, groannnn

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 27, 2009, 09:43:28 AM

@ Jeanna:

Thank you. Yes, it is fun, but I also leaned that I have much more to learn.

Xee2:

Thanks for the explanations of Jim's scope shots. That helps me "see" what is happening.

@ Jim:

Ah, the scope on the EB. At first, I was going to take the scope outside for a try but then, I am now thinking that I can just add some heavy wire to the EB leads (only about 6 feet or so) and it will reach into the house. I will have to give that a try just to see if I can see anything from it that makes sense. Thanks again, you have given me a great start for learning this complicated device.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 27, 2009, 11:28:14 AM

@ ALL EARTH BATTERY JT BUILDERS !

On Special request From A VIP Here i Now Have a Supplier For Carbon RODS In Various Sizes Ranging from 1/2 inch to 6 inches in diameter(round) and 12 and 24 inch lengths . These are pure carbon no Copper Clad so we will have to devise a Stainless Clamp To make a Solid Electrical Connection . . I can Take Orders next Week when The first Batch Comes in so i can Take Pictures to show them . I will have in stock 1/2 inch X 12 and 24 and 1 inch X 12 and 24 . Other sizes can be orders and dropped shipped .for example if you want a 6 inch round rod @ 3 feet This will be a good price that can't be beat as i want to Accelerate the Eb research i won't be making any money from the carbon rods . This is to help you if you can't get a good source for carbon . Thanks

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 27, 2009, 11:33:00 AM

Theory of base capacitor effect on JT circuit. Those with scopes can check to see if theory matches reality.

NOTE: When the transistor turns on the voltage across the collector coil is shorted to other side of coil through transistor and battery. This is why voltage drops as soon as transistor turns on. Before transistor turns on the voltage is trying to get to other side of collector coil but can not because the inductance of the coil opposes any current flow through it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 27, 2009, 12:51:17 PM

Quote from: altrez on May 26, 2009, 07:57:36 PM
@all

Now what I have noticed is that if the LEDS go out. I can adjust the 10k POT and they will come back on. And my rectified DC voltage will jump back up.

-Altrez

Wouldn't it be neat if there was an autoadjusting POT to keep up efficiencies as voltage dropped!

Good work ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on May 27, 2009, 12:59:44 PM

Quote from: stprue on May 27, 2009, 12:51:17 PM
Wouldn't it be neat if there was an autoadjusting POT to keep up efficiencies as voltage dropped!

Good work ;)

;)

I BET THERE IS A TINY LITTLE TRICK YOU ALL CAN DO TO KEEP IT IN TUNE ... ;D

IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN A JFET .... WITH A WIRELESS LINK

;)

IST!

http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/emotor/chargdet.html

;D 8) 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 27, 2009, 01:24:09 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on May 27, 2009, 12:59:44 PM
;)

I BET THERE IS A TINY LITTLE TRICK YOU ALL CAN DO TO KEEP IT IN TUNE ... ;D

IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN A JFET .... WITH A WIRELESS LINK

;)

IST!

http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/emotor/chargdet.html

;D 8) 8)

Very interesting and easy to build!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 27, 2009, 01:43:23 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 27, 2009, 02:37:15 AM
@ electricme

Photos look great. My interpretation of photo 799 (I assume that has the capacitor across the base resistor) is that the capacitor is slowing down the turn off of the transistor. Since the magnitude of the voltage spike is less when the rate of change of current is less, then this would produce a lower voltage spike. And since the amount of voltage induced in the pickup coil is also less with a slower rate of change of current, there will also be less voltage across the pickup coil. However, I do not see anything that would indicate why adding the capacitor across the base resistor decreases the battery drain (which is the reason I put a capacitor across the base resistor).

ok so the cap that is pushing the transistor to stay open is a bad idea as far as peak output but what good is the cap and resistor in parallel going to do besides lower the resistance of the curcuit? how do you propose that affects the base resistor? it looks like a short to me when the cap discharges through the resistor back to itself accomplishing no work except to allow some of the current to pass through to lower resistance to the base.

????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 27, 2009, 02:06:42 PM

Quote from: stprue on May 27, 2009, 12:51:17 PM
Wouldn't it be neat if there was an autoadjusting POT to keep up efficiencies as voltage dropped!

Good work ;)

stprue

I think the pot is actually OK
It is the voltages that are changing as the battery either charges or discharges
If we can keep the voltage in a narrow range the problem should be solved .
I do not remember what your circuit is like
What I am working on is collecting flyback pulses from JT coils
There are not alot of ways to hook up the coils so that they add together .....there ARE lots of ways to connect them so that they produce less .

Someone here said the other day that a neon light can be used to drain off extra voltage .......Thank you whoever it was .
Now .....once I get my setup right .........I will need to add a secondary that produces 90 V or so at the output that I want it to run at .
I will have to make sure that the feedback to source is MORE than enough to keep the battery charged .

I will then connect the neon between the output and a place where it will provide negative feedback when it is conducting .

If I am right the neon will also be a good status indicator
WHen the circuit is running but not powering anything the neon should glow brightly . when it is running well within its limits the neon should glow just a little ...... ( only the very tops of the waves will pass through it )
If it is loaded and the neon is not lit at all ....... you are probably overloading your circuit . You are no longer reaching the normal operating voltage .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 27, 2009, 02:12:35 PM

The advantage of adding the base capacitor is that it reduces the length of time the transistor is on and thus reduces the amount of current used from the battery. Less battery drain means that the circuit will run longer from the battery. Note, this is still at the theory stage until verified by someone with scope.

EDIT: This theory now seems wrong to me. OK, so the base cap increases the time it takes the transistor to turn on, but once it turns on it should stay on the same amount of time as before. Thus I do not see where the savings in battery current is coming from.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 27, 2009, 02:17:34 PM

Quote from: electricme on May 27, 2009, 08:47:08 AM
@Altrez,
You are doing much better with your experiments, than I did with my setup, but I can see you are on the same plane of thought I have had previously.
This brings up a point I have noticed through out this thread, several of us here at times have been replicating without knowing someone else was thinking or had done a previous work, and it is almost identical, I think this is an indication that we are heading in the right directions.
Congrads Al on being able to recharge your batteries, that in itself is a big leep forward.

The cap I used was a 35v DC 1000uF.
I wound a many many turns secondary and made a full wave bridge rectifier using 4 x 1N4004 diodes, the cap went on this output, then I soldered a switch (I just love switches) to the 12vDC CPU fan. When the cap charged up, I pressed trhe switch and the contents of the cap discharged into the fan.

I also experimented with trying to harness some radant energy by dumping the cap contents into a buzzer coil I modified, the coil worked, but not as well as I expected it to, but this has scope for further looking into.

This experiment I made was in the early days of this forum thread, no-one else at that time had progressed thus far and I suppose I just ran outa steem, speaking of steam, I wonder what IST is up to these days?

hooroo Al

jim

not to be a buzz kill but what you did is litterally a knock off of the bedeni school girl curcuit and really doesnt demonstrait anything revolutionary. if you can get a RC electric car to drive for more than 30 minutes off of 2 battery packs that are set to a auto switching and recharging curcuit off of this setup then i will be impressed as i have not seen that done yet!

maybe i should start drawing that up?.... shouldnt be hard to set up a charge and use switching curcuit based on voltage from the batteries. and this kind of design could make electric cars more applicable... hmmmm

but honestly to give credit where it is due, you have achieved the lowest draw. if you account for the recharge recovery. if you account for strait draw then i havent seen anything better than what others have done so far.

just a thought. make it work for a car. hint hint.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 27, 2009, 02:59:40 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on May 27, 2009, 02:06:42 PM
stprue

I think the pot is actually OK
It is the voltages that are changing as the battery either charges or discharges
If we can keep the voltage in a narrow range the problem should be solved .

Yes, and what you said would I feel anyway be ideal!

I do not remember what your circuit is like
What I am working on is collecting flyback pulses from JT coils
There are not alot of ways to hook up the coils so that they add together .....there ARE lots of ways to connect them so that they produce less .

I am working on Hazens1 style coils since I still don't know how to make MK style coils. I am getting 355v rectified and can light leds/neons with it. I am also using supercaps and will soon be using voltage multipliers. I feel that soon one of us here will feed back to the source or at lease combo with other technologies such as Pirate is doing with his EB/JT combos. NICE WORK Pirate!

Someone here said the other day that a neon light can be used to drain off extra voltage .......Thank you whoever it was .
Now .....once I get my setup right .........I will need to add a secondary that produces 90 V or so at the output that I want it to run at .
I will have to make sure that the feedback to source is MORE than enough to keep the battery charged .

To me it seems less of a high voltage problem and more of amperage/Farads problem!

I will then connect the neon between the output and a place where it will provide negative feedback when it is conducting .

This seems like a very interesting idea. Please post your results when you can!

If I am right the neon will also be a good status indicator
WHen the circuit is running but not powering anything the neon should glow brightly . when it is running well within its limits the neon should glow just a little ...... ( only the very tops of the waves will pass through it )
If it is loaded and the neon is not lit at all ....... you are probably overloading your circuit . You are no longer reaching the normal operating voltage .

Definetly!

gary

Overall I just though an autoadjusting POT would be an interesting tool ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 27, 2009, 03:00:45 PM

Quote from: stprue on May 27, 2009, 02:59:40 PM
Overall I just though an autoadjusting POT would be an interesting tool ;D

Comments within your post... sorry.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 27, 2009, 03:44:08 PM

Quote from: electricme on May 27, 2009, 08:47:08 AM
@Altrez,
You are doing much better with your experiments, than I did with my setup, but I can see you are on the same plane of thought I have had previously.
This brings up a point I have noticed through out this thread, several of us here at times have been replicating without knowing someone else was thinking or had done a previous work, and it is almost identical, I think this is an indication that we are heading in the right directions.
Congrads Al on being able to recharge your batteries, that in itself is a big leep forward.

The cap I used was a 35v DC 1000uF.
I wound a many many turns secondary and made a full wave bridge rectifier using 4 x 1N4004 diodes, the cap went on this output, then I soldered a switch (I just love switches) to the 12vDC CPU fan. When the cap charged up, I pressed trhe switch and the contents of the cap discharged into the fan.

I also experimented with trying to harness some radant energy by dumping the cap contents into a buzzer coil I modified, the coil worked, but not as well as I expected it to, but this has scope for further looking into.

This experiment I made was in the early days of this forum thread, no-one else at that time had progressed thus far and I suppose I just ran outa steem, speaking of steam, I wonder what IST is up to these days?

hooroo Al

jim

Thank you Jim! It is very neat how we all seem to end up replicating each others work independently. It really seems to confirm the fact that there is so much more to this circuit then I thought before.

I have charged battery's and filled caps. I have pushed motors and lit neon's. I have even ran a 13watt CFL from a FUJI mode that was powered from a battery connected to a switch that is ran to my Main JT that is charged from a battery that is recharged from a different JT And this all can be done with out introducing any new energy into the system. :) All from the same battery's.

I plan on adding 6 charging points on my main setup with 4 2.9 inch Toroids connected to one main JT circuit. So far I am still running on the same set of battery's I started with on Monday. Adding a 50F SC to the mix soon that should push my efficiency up quite a bit.

The Cap will be in place to allow a fall off period for the battery's in separate tests I noticed that the battery's seem to have more power If allowed to rest for 1 hour or more?

I still have a bunch of work to do. I do feel like this will keep on going as long as there is power in the JT. I took a battery from .900mV to 1.2 v in 12 hours. It normally takes me 5-6 hours to recharge from mains.

I plan on getting some of the 15 minute rechargeable battery's and pumping a Super Cap into them to see if they get a full charge. So at that point I will have the super caps charging the batters that are running the circuit that keeps the caps charged and also still run a DC motor, LEDS CFL with Fuji mod all from on circuit and a 1.2 v power source.

Take care!!!!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 27, 2009, 03:52:17 PM

@Altrez,

WOW!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 27, 2009, 03:53:49 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on May 27, 2009, 02:06:42 PM
stprue

I think the pot is actually OK
It is the voltages that are changing as the battery either charges or discharges
If we can keep the voltage in a narrow range the problem should be solved .
I do not remember what your circuit is like
What I am working on is collecting flyback pulses from JT coils
There are not alot of ways to hook up the coils so that they add together .....there ARE lots of ways to connect them so that they produce less .

Someone here said the other day that a neon light can be used to drain off extra voltage .......Thank you whoever it was .
Now .....once I get my setup right .........I will need to add a secondary that produces 90 V or so at the output that I want it to run at .
I will have to make sure that the feedback to source is MORE than enough to keep the battery charged .

I will then connect the neon between the output and a place where it will provide negative feedback when it is conducting .

If I am right the neon will also be a good status indicator
WHen the circuit is running but not powering anything the neon should glow brightly . when it is running well within its limits the neon should glow just a little ...... ( only the very tops of the waves will pass through it )
If it is loaded and the neon is not lit at all ....... you are probably overloading your circuit . You are no longer reaching the normal operating voltage .

gary

Gary:

If I read this correctly, the use of the neon as described sounds a lot like the way we use them in the Bedini circuits. It is amazing to me how a lot of this stuff is connected in some way or another on here. My neon on my no bearing one magnet Bedini (Jonnydavro's design) works in just the manner you said. It is cool how a 120 volt neon can light very brightly and I am powering the circuit with a rechargeable 9 volt. They tell me the neon is only there to protect the transistor. (2N3055)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 27, 2009, 04:07:28 PM

OK Altrez.

These are re-posts.

Here is the drawing which may be easier to follow than a schematic (which may be wrong)
If there is room I also post a scope shot of this baby.

There are 3 sets of LEDS not drawn on this drawing.
1-the battery rail can be filled.
2-the bjt spot of the widow on the first tier has a led which is bright and draws a bunch of current.
3- there is another secondary/pickup from the widow which has 3-5 of its own leds.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 27, 2009, 04:23:43 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 27, 2009, 03:52:17 PM
@Altrez,

WOW!

jeanna

You started me down this path :) So thank you! If I had not went back to perform that test for you I would of went to bed!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 27, 2009, 04:30:09 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 27, 2009, 04:07:28 PM
OK Altrez.

These are re-posts.

Here is the drawing which may be easier to follow than a schematic (which may be wrong)
If there is room I also post a scope shot of this baby.

There are 3 sets of LEDS not drawn on this drawing.
1-the battery rail can be filled.
2-the bjt spot of the widow on the first tier has a led which is bright and draws a bunch of current.
3- there is another secondary/pickup from the widow which has 3-5 of its own leds.

jeanna

That is how I set it up Monday and yes it works fine :) Great Job!!! Do you mind if I add that to my design?

Thanks!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 27, 2009, 04:45:06 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 27, 2009, 03:53:49 PM
Gary:

If I read this correctly, the use of the neon as described sounds a lot like the way we use them in the Bedini circuits. It is amazing to me how a lot of this stuff is connected in some way or another on here. My neon on my no bearing one magnet Bedini (Jonnydavro's design) works in just the manner you said. It is cool how a 120 volt neon can light very brightly and I am powering the circuit with a rechargeable 9 volt. They tell me the neon is only there to protect the transistor. (2N3055)

Bill

Bill

That is interesting

do you have a schematic of that circuit ?
I didn't have any idea that the base of the 3055 could handle that much voltage .
I think what I am doing is alot like some of the Bedini I have seen ........except he used bigger coils
It seems to The motor part seems to be optional .... I have read that they can still charge a battery without the motor part running .

It is nice to know that others have already used a neon in a way similar to how I planned on using it ....... I can often see how things could work .....but I am not quite as good at actually getting them to work ....
I guess that is my problem

It is funny how sometimes things just start falling together :)
I was tearing old stuff apart a while back looking for toroids .
I found 3055 on a nice big heat sink
I guess it will be one of my next projects

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 27, 2009, 04:48:06 PM

@all

Just explained the setup to a friend and he said that it was not working like I think? He is an EE and was in the Air Force for 30 years. He basically said the JT is simply a transformer and that a DC - DC converter is far more efficient then a JT when converting to DC?

Not sure about all that but I do trust him. He also said that I was not really charging the battery's at all? And that the voltage was empty?

Can anyone explain that?

Thanks!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 27, 2009, 05:01:05 PM

Quote from: altrez on May 27, 2009, 03:44:08 PM
Thank you Jim! It is very neat how we all seem to end up replicating each others work independently. It really seems to confirm the fact that there is so much more to this circuit then I thought before.

I have charged battery's and filled caps. I have pushed motors and lit neon's. I have even ran a 13watt CFL from a FUJI mode that was powered from a battery connected to a switch that is ran to my Main JT that is charged from a battery that is recharged from a different JT And this all can be done with out introducing any new energy into the system. :) All from the same battery's.

I plan on adding 6 charging points on my main setup with 4 2.9 inch Toroids connected to one main JT circuit. So far I am still running on the same set of battery's I started with on Monday. Adding a 50F SC to the mix soon that should push my efficiency up quite a bit.

The Cap will be in place to allow a fall off period for the battery's in separate tests I noticed that the battery's seem to have more power If allowed to rest for 1 hour or more?

I still have a bunch of work to do. I do feel like this will keep on going as long as there is power in the JT. I took a battery from .900mV to 1.2 v in 12 hours. It normally takes me 5-6 hours to recharge from mains.

I plan on getting some of the 15 minute rechargeable battery's and pumping a Super Cap into them to see if they get a full charge. So at that point I will have the super caps charging the batters that are running the circuit that keeps the caps charged and also still run a DC motor, LEDS CFL with Fuji mod all from on circuit and a 1.2 v power source.

Take care!!!!

-Altrez

You seem to be making some serious progress here! Keep up the good work ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on May 27, 2009, 05:03:31 PM

Quote from: altrez on May 27, 2009, 04:48:06 PM
@all

Just explained the setup to a friend and he said that it was not working like I think? He is an EE and was in the Air Force for 30 years. He basically said the JT is simply a transformer and that a DC - DC converter is far more efficient then a JT when converting to DC?

Not sure about all that but I do trust him. He also said that I was not really charging the battery's at all? And that the voltage was empty?

Can anyone explain that?

Thanks!

-Altrez

sounds like a knee jerk reaction. you can test the 'empty' voltage and see how 'empty' it is.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 27, 2009, 05:08:41 PM

Quote from: altrez on May 27, 2009, 04:48:06 PM
@all

Just explained the setup to a friend and he said that it was not working like I think? He is an EE and was in the Air Force for 30 years. He basically said the JT is simply a transformer and that a DC - DC converter is far more efficient then a JT when converting to DC?

Not sure about all that but I do trust him. He also said that I was not really charging the battery's at all? And that the voltage was empty?

Can anyone explain that?

Thanks!

-Altrez

Altrez

What is empty voltage ?

It looks to me like your friend is very well educated .
It looks to me like your friend learned all he knows without questioning it much.
To me it is clear that the curriculum of even our best collages has been tweaked by people that have a vested interest in keeping people hooked on their power .
The "quirks " that we could use to get OU are simply not discussed in any detail .....they are not studied .
How to get around these quirks is taught in great detail

It is good to trust your friend ...........but just because he has a good education does not mean he has the real facts .

Trust what is on your workbench .
If you can power something with a battery you recharge with your system ........who cares if the voltage is " empty "

Keep up the good work

:)

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 27, 2009, 05:15:32 PM

@ altrez

Quote from: altrez on May 27, 2009, 04:48:06 PM
@all

Just explained the setup to a friend and he said that it was not working like I think? He is an EE and was in the Air Force for 30 years. He basically said the JT is simply a transformer and that a DC - DC converter is far more efficient then a JT when converting to DC?

Not sure about all that but I do trust him. He also said that I was not really charging the battery's at all? And that the voltage was empty?

Can anyone explain that?

Thanks!

-Altrez

A JT is just an easy to build DC-DC converter that puts out high frequency pulses at high voltage. Battery voltage is not a good indicator of energy stored in battery. You should talk to your friend more.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 27, 2009, 05:18:11 PM

Quote from: altrez on May 27, 2009, 04:30:09 PM
That is how I set it up Monday and yes it works fine :) Great Job!!! Do you mind if I add that to my design?

Thanks!

-Altrez

:D
Please do!
jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on May 27, 2009, 05:29:27 PM

-Altrez

Just a question , How long dose a uncharged battery last , yes i know its still undetermined , lol , the battery may even get better with time , well you tell us !

We may not be making OU but we use every little bit of juice , from a minimal 1.5 God those are good batteries , or less Ha HA .We are finding new ways of using it every day , a AA battery can easily be replaced by many little energy source solar, wind , home made battery , air system , you name it !

This is not just about excess energy but the ability to use new means of power !

@all

A little circuit i just found , i did post it a while back , it has nothink to do with the tpu but its a more in the basic jt mod kind of thing , but now its used for making a blinker but if it is set in resonance mode may be the way to go .

I also have a really interesting info , i was looking for a way to fine tune the mk type 4x4 , so i made a dummy toroid . A second toroid , but connected first , so battery + 2 coil on one toroid reverse polarity reverse wind , not sure if the reverse wind make a big difference , connected to the mk 4x4 coil in series so the dummy is first then the regular jt , ok so far i found a way to either bring down the voltage from the mk secondary in a big way or keep ot about the same , i am sure there there is more to learn about this , but more interesting is that a secondary can also be made around the dummy , the exciting news is that this load dose not affect the mk secondary voltage so i can charge caps load without lowering the voltage from the secondary on the mk on the 4x4 if you load a coil all the coil will still have the same load voltage , so you need to compensate but on the dummy its kinda nice more power to send back to battery , or cap humm.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 27, 2009, 05:34:05 PM

Quote from: altrez on May 27, 2009, 04:48:06 PM
@all

Just explained the setup to a friend and he said that it was not working like I think? He is an EE and was in the Air Force for 30 years. He basically said the JT is simply a transformer and that a DC - DC converter is far more efficient then a JT when converting to DC?

Not sure about all that but I do trust him. He also said that I was not really charging the battery's at all? And that the voltage was empty?

Can anyone explain that?

Thanks!

-Altrez

Empty probably means no amps.
You know, things like lightning that are only volts but not amps have no real power?

I agree with most of the other comments, but I won't repeat them.

It is however AC. If I cannot catch it in a cap without a diode then it must be AC and besides I can SEE the waves looking a whole lot like sinewaves. What I can see and others here cannot is that the x axis is right in the middle of the curves making it a sinewave. (with a limp) not dc. It is much more than a dc to dc converter.

I suspect your friend just put it into a well educated box. He didn't really see in his mind, what you are describing.

The joulethief is both an inverter and a transformer. I do not know how many times I need to repeat this.

Keep your friend. He just doesn't know everything, yet.

Quote
a DC - DC converter is far more efficient then a JT when converting to DC?

Now, this part might be true. I have not spent much time with this in
DC mode. As soon as it is inverted to AC I do my best to keep it there. It makes some of my results look puny but it doesn't matter to me. They stay AC.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 27, 2009, 05:38:35 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 27, 2009, 05:15:32 PM

Battery voltage is not a good indicator of energy stored in battery. You should talk to your friend more.

I agree in part
Simply looking at the voltage is not a very good indicator of how much energy is available in a battery .
Batterys store the energy in chemical form .... so the interaction is complex

As I see it if your battery has less ability to power a load with each charge cycle of your circuit then the volts are indeed empty .
If the battery lasts as long in later tests as it did in earlier tests then it is charged with real voltage .

gary

Edit
I have read that the Bedini SG does not really charge the batterys as it seems to ........It is said that each cycle the battery holds less .

I do not believe it .

A skeptic only needs to win one argument to win.
No matter how good your idea is ....... you won't take the time to get it going if you no longer believe it will work
This forum has lost alot of great ideas to this little fact .

A common tactic is to attack one fact as if it was the whole project .
If they can prove a point about that one fact ...... the whole project is usually dropped .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 27, 2009, 05:39:29 PM

@Altrez
When you can show your friend that you are able to light a fluorescent tube from an AAA battery with a circuit you made yourself he will probably be impressed.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 27, 2009, 05:46:54 PM

I just want to add,

The amount of energy we are using that is unrecovered should only be the amount that is ACTUALLY dissipated by the load. The rest should be able to be returned to the battery.

All the rest.

We are so accustomed to using so much extra and slopping it all over the place that we have no idea how much we waste.

IMO you have just shown a little indication of just how much we spill out of our bucket. (I think that was MK1's metaphor.)

@xee, the voltage in the battery may not be a good indication of what was used, but if after a recharge, the chemistry is ready and able to "do it again" who cares?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 27, 2009, 06:03:06 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 27, 2009, 05:39:29 PM
@Altrez
When you can show your friend that you are able to light a fluorescent tube from an AAA battery with a circuit you made yourself he will probably be impressed.

:)

great idea

:)

show him how long you can run a CFL with an " empty " battery

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 27, 2009, 06:13:26 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 27, 2009, 05:46:54 PM
I just want to add,

The amount of energy we are using that is unrecovered should only be the amount that is ACTUALLY dissipated by the load. The rest should be able to be returned to the battery.

All the rest.

We are so accustomed to using so much extra and slopping it all over the place that we have no idea how much we waste.

IMO you have just shown a little indication of just how much we spill out of our bucket. (I think that was MK1's metaphor.)

@xee, the voltage in the battery may not be a good indication of what was used, but if after a recharge, the chemistry is ready and able to "do it again" who cares?

jeanna

Jeanna

I agree for the most part .

Can you define " ACTUALLY dissipated by the load "
I can see how electricity can be turned into heat or radiowaves ......other than that .......it seems to me that all the energy is still there .

Energy is not what we have been taught that it is
We need to learn about it for ourselves .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 27, 2009, 06:18:37 PM

Quote from: stprue on May 27, 2009, 05:01:05 PM
You seem to be making some serious progress here! Keep up the good work ;D

Thank you! I am trying :)
-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 27, 2009, 06:22:04 PM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on May 27, 2009, 05:03:31 PM
sounds like a knee jerk reaction. you can test the 'empty' voltage and see how 'empty' it is.

Yep. Hes coming over this weekend. I plan to show him.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 27, 2009, 06:24:07 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on May 27, 2009, 05:08:41 PM

Altrez

What is empty voltage ?

It looks to me like your friend is very well educated .
It looks to me like your friend learned all he knows without questioning it much.
To me it is clear that the curriculum of even our best collages has been tweaked by people that have a vested interest in keeping people hooked on their power .
The "quirks " that we could use to get OU are simply not discussed in any detail .....they are not studied .
How to get around these quirks is taught in great detail

It is good to trust your friend ...........but just because he has a good education does not mean he has the real facts .

Trust what is on your workbench .
If you can power something with a battery you recharge with your system ........who cares if the voltage is " empty "

Keep up the good work

:)

gary

Right on! And thank you. It is right here on my work bench and I can take the battery out and power the fuji!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 27, 2009, 06:26:32 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 27, 2009, 05:15:32 PM
@ altrez
A JT is just an easy to build DC-DC converter that puts out high frequency pulses at high voltage. Battery voltage is not a good indicator of energy stored in battery. You should talk to your friend more.

Yeah he is coming over this weekend we are gonna have a talk. And while we are talking I plan to power a cfl with one of my "empty" battery's :)

Lol

Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 27, 2009, 06:27:17 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 27, 2009, 05:18:11 PM
:D
Please do!
jeanna

Thank you!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 27, 2009, 06:27:19 PM

@ all

Can anyone many a small dc motor run with a JT? Maybe this is old news but I just realized that I can when I have my supercaps hooked up. This proves that the SC can absorb amps through a JT! Anyways if this has been said before sorry, I just thought I would post in case.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 27, 2009, 06:29:57 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on May 27, 2009, 05:29:27 PM
-Altrez

Just a question , How long dose a uncharged battery last , yes i know its still undetermined , lol , the battery may even get better with time , well you tell us !

We may not be making OU but we use every little bit of juice , from a minimal 1.5 God those are good batteries , or less Ha HA .We are finding new ways of using it every day , a AA battery can easily be replaced by many little energy source solar, wind , home made battery , air system , you name it !

This is not just about excess energy but the ability to use new means of power !

@all

A little circuit i just found , i did post it a while back , it has nothink to do with the tpu but its a more in the basic jt mod kind of thing , but now its used for making a blinker but if it is set in resonance mode may be the way to go .

I also have a really interesting info , i was looking for a way to fine tune the mk type 4x4 , so i made a dummy toroid . A second toroid , but connected first , so battery + 2 coil on one toroid reverse polarity reverse wind , not sure if the reverse wind make a big difference , connected to the mk 4x4 coil in series so the dummy is first then the regular jt , ok so far i found a way to either bring down the voltage from the mk secondary in a big way or keep ot about the same , i am sure there there is more to learn about this , but more interesting is that a secondary can also be made around the dummy , the exciting news is that this load dose not affect the mk secondary voltage so i can charge caps load without lowering the voltage from the secondary on the mk on the 4x4 if you load a coil all the coil will still have the same load voltage , so you need to compensate but on the dummy its kinda nice more power to send back to battery , or cap humm.

Mark

I am not sure how long it will last :) I do know it keeps charging backup to the right voltage :) And powers an led bank while its doing it :)

Nice circuit!!!!

@all

Sorry if I missed anyone's post. I am back home and Back to the work bench.. Pics coming soon!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 27, 2009, 06:31:27 PM

Quote from: stprue on May 27, 2009, 06:27:19 PM
@ all

Can anyone many a small dc motor run with a JT? Maybe this is old news but I just realized that I can when I have my supercaps hooked up. This proves that the SC can absorb amps through a JT! Anyways if this has been said before sorry, I just thought I would post in case.

Yes I am powering a small motor right now from a Bridge. And I believe Jim is as well. Nice work with SC!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 27, 2009, 06:43:21 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on May 27, 2009, 06:13:26 PM

Jeanna

I agree for the most part .

Can you define " ACTUALLY dissipated by the load "
I can see how electricity can be turned into heat or radiowaves ......other than that .......it seems to me that all the energy is still there .

Energy is not what we have been taught that it is
We need to learn about it for ourselves .
gary

That is exactly what I mean.
If you light a led, you should expect the circuit to be down by those milliamps and not one microamp or microvolt more.

That is in AC, remember.
When we are using dc, it is another matter.

Using the water as voltage metaphor,
The river flows to the sea and we need to haul it back uphill to be able to use it again.
AC is not that way.

I believe we have been taught that ac is a fast moving dc.
But it really is the other way around.
DC is a one way kind of AC. A snapshot, so to speak.

AC is how the cosmos, the ocean and earth energies work.
I think they are more long lasting. don't you? ;)
If it were not for the larger cosmic forces at play, the river would never be replenished by the rain etc.

We have not explored ac.
We have only used it as Tesla realized and Westinghouse agreed to let us use it.

We have a lot of exploring to do. = more fun.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on May 27, 2009, 07:22:09 PM

I'm trying to account for the reasoning behind using a low voltage source when it is actually the current which issues the voltage spike in the collapsing magnetic field.

It would make sense that the current coming from two 1.5 volt batteries in series would be different from that of two in parallel.

I've tried using two in series, parallel and alone. The lone battery seems to function best. I do not know why this is. Has anyone got any thoughts?

Additionally, the 1.5 volt source is common but it is also unconventional in that is attempts to wow us with it's small stature but it's irrelevant when it comes to being implemented in say, a vehicle with a 12 volt source such as a motor-home. Even most "green"-houses have 12 or 24 volt outlets. Shouldn't we consider the possibility of using a different source voltage?

It would also be interesting to know what's going through your heads on the matter of cheer current available and current used. As some of you have pointed out, the transistor is often acting in tandem with inductances - switching on and off at resonance ( as determined by loads and circuit resistance ); since the current available is most high compared to that which is used, it seems reasonable to say that a car battery could be used to power a JTC given the right transistor.

Why not light up a 48 inch tube..and then post your youtube video using it for lighting. ( that would be a nice trick you know! ..actually using the light for lighting )

Anyway, it would be nice to get 2 48 inch tubes lit like they are in any standard florescent ballast circuit. Does anyone have any current usage characteristics on the florotubes?

The idea here is a matter of watts ..not necessarily voltage, but some of are trying to cover large distances with voltages.

@jeanna, you must have a macro setting on you camera? is it digital? ..can't you possibly get the pictures of your waveforms in focus?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on May 27, 2009, 07:42:35 PM

BUSY PLACE ROUND HERE ...

A NOTE BOUT YOUR FAKE CHARGE ...

IF YOU EXPERIENCE THIS... FREQ IS TOOOOO HIGH ON OUT PUT ... PUT IN A CAP DC FIRST ...

YOU WILL BE FINE .... ;D

I DID THIS WITH A SINGLE PULSE MOTOR COIL IN MY PULSE MOTOR THRED FROM A SMALL 12 BATTERY I CHARGED 3 ... 2 DEEP CYCLE LARGE SOLAR ONES ... AND 1 SMALL SAME AS INPUT ...

YOU NEED THE CAP .. ASWELL IT NEEDS TO USE POWER ... CUZ THE USED POWER FILLS THE CAP ... THE KICKS ... RAISE THE VOLTAGE IN THE CAP TO PUSH ..

IST

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 27, 2009, 07:51:42 PM

Quote from: altrez on May 27, 2009, 04:48:06 PM
Just explained the setup to a friend and he said that it was not working like I think? He is an EE and was in the Air Force for 30 years. He basically said the JT is simply a transformer and that a DC - DC converter is far more efficient then a JT when converting to DC?

not quite true, it depend on what efficientcy he is talking about.
efficient at energy conversion or "efficient" in a way to say: you will have less problems at higher current with a DC - DC converter.

conventional DC - DC converters are far from having high conversion efficientcy, a bjt beat them at this.
but the same might not be true for jts with pickup coil(s).

Quote from: altrez on May 27, 2009, 04:48:06 PM
Not sure about all that but I do trust him. He also said that I was not really charging the battery's at all? And that the voltage was empty?

Can anyone explain that?

he is right.
to charge a battery you actualy need to push charges(electrons imbalance) into it.

pulsing a battery will rise it voltage without adding much charges to it.

one thing i have learned about batteries is that:
you can have volts without apparent current and also can have current without apparent voltage.
when both are connected in series you will have an output that is not exactly what you would expect to measure.

the effect you are experiencing is due to the charges you put into the other battery, even if it is very little, and the properties of those chimical battery.
at relaxation time, a battery will regain a bit of it charge by itself.
this is due to the chimical reactions being slow to re-create electrons imbalance within the battery.

using batteries to test what you are testing is not a good idea, super cap would be better to test for OU.

i don't say that there is no usable effect with batteries.
but in a few weeks, if your system is not OU, you will notice that you will need to switch the batteries more and more often as the time pass.
with caps, you would see it way faster.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 27, 2009, 07:53:21 PM

Hi Jadaro,

I am sorry for that photo. It was an older one. I only posted it because it went along with the drawing, as I have given up getting much to post from the scope. I have a digital and it has macro, but the reflection on the scope is really hard to get around.

I wanted to respond to your suggestion to use higher voltage. Go ahead. There are a lot of folks, mostly sec makers like slayer, lidmotor kubikop and many others who start with 12 volts. They do great things.

What the 1.2 volt battery offers is the ability to notice when there are small losses. We can learn to be more precise because we must. If we are sloppy with any part we know it, but it could be missed with a 12 volt.
When the research is done, use the 12 volt... power your house, but you will be getting far more from the 12 volt battery because in your research you used a 1.2 volt battery.

That is my reason for keeping it small. (even though it can be frustrating at times.)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 27, 2009, 07:54:17 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on May 27, 2009, 07:22:09 PM
I'm trying to account for the reasoning behind using a low voltage source when it is actually the current which issues the voltage spike in the collapsing magnetic field.

It would make sense that the current coming from two 1.5 volt batteries in series would be different from that of two in parallel.

I've tried using two in series, parallel and alone. The lone battery seems to function best. I do not know why this is. Has anyone got any thoughts?

Additionally, the 1.5 volt source is common but it is also unconventional in that is attempts to wow us with it's small stature but it's irrelevant when it comes to being implemented in say, a vehicle with a 12 volt source such as a motor-home. Even most "green"-houses have 12 or 24 volt outlets. Shouldn't we consider the possibility of using a different source voltage?

It would also be interesting to know what's going through your heads on the matter of cheer current available and current used. As some of you have pointed out, the transistor is often acting in tandem with inductances - switching on and off at resonance ( as determined by loads and circuit resistance ); since the current available is most high compared to that which is used, it seems reasonable to say that a car battery could be used to power a JTC given the right transistor.

Why not light up a 48 inch tube..and then post your youtube video using it for lighting. ( that would be a nice trick you know! ..actually using the light for lighting )

Anyway, it would be nice to get 2 48 inch tubes lit like they are in any standard florescent ballast circuit. Does anyone have any current usage characteristics on the florotubes?

The idea here is a matter of watts ..not necessarily voltage, but some of are trying to cover large distances with voltages.

@jeanna, you must have a macro setting on you camera? is it digital? ..can't you possibly get the pictures of your waveforms in focus?

I have videos of me lighting two 48" tubes from a single AA battery posted on Youtube. Since I can light 1 from my Earth Battery, I am also going to try 2. but, you said "lit like they are...." and mine, of course, are not as bright as the ones on the grid in a fixture.....not yet anyway. Have you ever seen the ballasts they use on those? Huge and very heavy and, I have no idea exactly what the amp draw is (we can google it) but I bet it is very high. I am with you on this one. My goal has been for a while: To light the most I can using the least I can.

@ All:

A lot of very nice work being done here. I have to go back and catch up but I scanned the latest posts and they show how much is happening here. Great work everyone!!!!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 27, 2009, 08:00:19 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 27, 2009, 06:43:21 PM

We have not explored ac.
We have only used it as Tesla realized and Westinghouse agreed to let us use it.

We have a lot of exploring to do. = more fun.

Jeanna

I agree AC is different
It seems to be one of those quirks that are explained away in overly simple terms

The laws about AC are not even close to right .

It is taught that if you have a transformer with 2 secondarys half of the AC will be induced in each seconday
That is true ...........but if it is a high frequency transformer it can really screw up a TV in the next room .
NOW .......if half of the AC goes into each secondary ........what half of the AC is screwing up the TV ?
I think the truth is simple
When you induce a magnetic field to change rapidly it affects EVERYTHING around it Understanding how a MRI works should be proof of this .

It is easiest to catch the power right at the source ........but power will be induced in any wire anywhere near the original source .

Here is a llittle tidbit to think about
The closer you get to the source .......the more you affect the source by taking the energy
It is hard to capture enough energy at a distance ..........but if you can do it ........it will have no affect on the supply .
I think your driving LEDs with the secondarys is partial proof of this
The secondary is partly 'insulated " from the primary ......so it does not " draw " as much power from the source .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 27, 2009, 08:07:28 PM

@ Jeanna and Gary:

Another thing about AC that has been drummed into my head form when I was a kid. "All AC is 60 Hz." And, on our grid here in the US it is.....but......what about all of those other freqs. out there of AC? JT secondaries, EB's and who knows what else is out there that is NOT 60 Hz AC. I think this leaves a lot to be explored. Actually, I believe lightning is AC (I believe Jeanna already mentioned this) as I have read that while particles flow from the cloud to the ground an equal number of particles flow from the ground to the cloud. I was also always taught that lightning was static and "can't do any work". Now, I don't know who wrote that in that particular text book but I disagree 100%!!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 27, 2009, 08:25:01 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 27, 2009, 08:07:28 PM
@ Jeanna and Gary:

Another thing about AC that has been drummed into my head form when I was a kid. "All AC is 60 Hz." And, on our grid here in the US it is.....but......what about all of those other freqs. out there of AC? JT secondaries, EB's and who knows what else is out there that is NOT 60 Hz AC. I think this leaves a lot to be explored. Actually, I believe lightning is AC (I believe Jeanna already mentioned this) as I have read that while particles flow from the cloud to the ground an equal number of particles flow from the ground to the cloud. I was also always taught that lightning was static and "can't do any work". Now, I don't know who wrote that in that particular text book but I disagree 100%!!

Bill

Bill

I agree that frequency is important .
It is another one of those quirks .
We are taught only the basics .
We are taught that the basics are all that there is .

Tesla knew alot more about frequency than most people know now .
Pulsing DC is similar to AC,
Many of Teslas later projects involved high voltage high frequency DC,
I remember reading that he found at lower freqencys a painful stinging sensation was felt .......and the sensation could not be shielded .
At higher frequencys the pain was not there . Tesla actually made a point to spend time in these high frequency DC fields .......

I do think that at when we start using higher power we should start monitoring the RF noise that a JT can make .
for the larger ones it might make sense to keep them below radio frequency .......so we don't get the FCC knocking on our doors .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 27, 2009, 08:30:34 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on May 27, 2009, 07:42:35 PM
BUSY PLACE ROUND HERE ...

A NOTE BOUT YOUR FAKE CHARGE ...

IF YOU EXPERIENCE THIS... FREQ IS TOOOOO HIGH ON OUT PUT ... PUT IN A CAP DC FIRST ...

YOU WILL BE FINE .... ;D

I DID THIS WITH A SINGLE PULSE MOTOR COIL IN MY PULSE MOTOR THRED FROM A SMALL 12 BATTERY I CHARGED 3 ... 2 DEEP CYCLE LARGE SOLAR ONES ... AND 1 SMALL SAME AS INPUT ...

YOU NEED THE CAP .. ASWELL IT NEEDS TO USE POWER ... CUZ THE USED POWER FILLS THE CAP ... THE KICKS ... RAISE THE VOLTAGE IN THE CAP TO PUSH ..

IST

Thank you for the advice!!!

What size cap and how would I hook it up? Would I go from the + on the bridge to one leg of the cap and the from the other leg of the cap go to the + on the battery?

Thank you!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on May 27, 2009, 08:34:17 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on May 27, 2009, 08:25:01 PM
I do think that at when we start using higher power we should start monitoring the RF noise that a JT can make .
for the larger ones it might make sense to keep them below radio frequency .......so we don't get the FCC knocking on our doors .

gary

why not just shield them, or explore the helmholtz setup that someone (sorry, i forgot who it was) showed earlier?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 27, 2009, 08:40:59 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on May 27, 2009, 06:13:26 PM
Energy is not what we have been taught that it is
We need to learn about it for ourselves .

please stop fooling with your mind.

be honest with yourself.

what did they teached you at school ?
what did you understood, retained, of it ?
could it be possible that you did not completly understood some parts of what they have teached you ?

do you really understand the laws pertaining to electricity and magnetism ?
what about those pertaining to physic and chimistry in general ?
how many of those were teached to you ?
did you specialised yourself in a specific field ?
ex: physic, chimistry, electronic, mecanic, etc..
if yes, did it helped you in any way or was it all bullsh** ?
do you really expect schools to teach you every things known to man in just a few years ?

if something has been tested to the point a law was devised, isn't it safe to assume that it does apply to what was tested ?

don't answere those questions to me.
answere then to yourself.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 27, 2009, 08:43:04 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on May 27, 2009, 07:51:42 PM
not quite true, it depend on what efficientcy he is talking about.
efficient at energy conversion or "efficient" in a way to say: you will have less problems at higher current with a DC - DC converter.

conventional DC - DC converters are far from having high conversion efficientcy, a bjt beat them at this.
but the same might not be true for jts with pickup coil(s).

he is right.
to charge a battery you actualy need to push charges(electrons imbalance) into it.

pulsing a battery will rise it voltage without adding much charges to it.

one thing i have learned about batteries is that:
you can have volts without apparent current and also can have current without apparent voltage.
when both are connected in series you will have an output that is not exactly what you would expect to measure.

the effect you are experiencing is due to the charges you put into the other battery, even if it is very little, and the properties of those chimical battery.
at relaxation time, a battery will regain a bit of it charge by itself.
this is due to the chimical reactions being slow to re-create electrons imbalance within the battery.

using batteries to test what you are testing is not a good idea, super cap would be better to test for OU.

i don't say that there is no usable effect with batteries.
but in a few weeks, if your system is not OU, you will notice that you will need to switch the batteries more and more often as the time pass.
with caps, you would see it way faster.

Thank you for the advice! Can you recommended some Super Caps that I can order online to test with?

I know this setup is not even close to OU no mater how much I would like it to be!! It is however far more efficient then what I have been seeing in my previous setups.

Thank you!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on May 27, 2009, 08:50:08 PM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on May 27, 2009, 08:34:17 PM
why not just shield them, or explore the helmholtz setup that someone (sorry, i forgot who it was) showed earlier?

I was messing with the notion, but ..shielding? ..is anything really shielded?

As for the helmhotlz idea, the principle is the same, the winding is 100% easier; I was attempting to remove the idea of using a toroid.

The operation is related directly to the spacing of the coils...as one might suspect.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on May 27, 2009, 08:59:28 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on May 27, 2009, 08:50:08 PM
I was messing with the notion, but ..shielding? ..is anything really shielded?

;D i'm just saying, if a big jt put out enough rf to attract the fcc, it could be shielded to drop enough to where it wouldn't be a problem. i think.

Quote from: jadaro2600 on May 27, 2009, 08:50:08 PM
As for the helmhotlz idea, the principle is the same, the winding is 100% easier; I was attempting to remove the idea of using a toroid.

The operation is related directly to the spacing of the coils...as one might suspect.

was that you? sorry i forgot and was too lazy to go find it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 27, 2009, 09:06:12 PM

Quote from: altrez on May 27, 2009, 08:43:04 PM
Thank you for the advice! Can you recommended some Super Caps that I can order online to test with?

I know this setup is not even close to OU no mater how much I would like it to be!! It is however far more efficient then what I have been seeing in my previous setups.

Thank you!

-Altrez

Gadgetmall is selling a very nice 650 Farad supercap on his site for about $60.00 or so. I have ordered one. He has the link to his site on the bottom of his posts so, if you want to look into it, just find any of his posts and you will see the link.

This may be too large a cap for your purposes but then again, maybe not. If you got your device to charge this you could probably run the device for another week or more just from the supercap.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 27, 2009, 09:28:16 PM

@ jadaro2600

You can buy an inverter to convert 12 volts to 120 volts AC that will light tubes full brightness from a car battery. And you won't even have to make anything (except the money to buy it). But, you won't learn anything either.

It is easy to light a tube from a car battery, all you need is a buzzer and a spark coil. For me, the fun of the JT is seeing what it can be made to do from 1.5 volts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on May 27, 2009, 09:29:40 PM

I WILL SHARE MORE NOW AS I HAVE MORE TIME ...

IM STANDING UP NOW FOR THOSE THAT DONT KNOW ....

8)

SO I GREW A WEE BIT IN MY TIME AWAY ...

SO THIS IS THE PRINCIBLE OF THE PULSE MOTOR AND THERE IS A LOT MORE TO IT TOO

BUT THIS WILL HELP EVERYONE ...

I SUPPLY 12 DC ON MY INPUT ...

IN MY FINISHED UNIT I WILL CHARGE AT 120 VDC CONSTANT ... PER COIL IF I SO DESIRE THE HIGHER THE CHARGE VOLTAGE YOU ALLOW TO PUSH THE FASTER MY MOTOR RUNS ...

THE TESTS I DESCRIBED EARLYER WERE DONE ON 1 COIL ... I HAVE 8 COILS....

EACH CAN CHARGE 10 DC 12V BATTERIES WITH EASE .....

THE CHARGE RATE IS DETUMINED BY THE VALUE OF THE CAP ...

SO OUT OF THE BRIDGE ... TO THE CAP OF YOUR CHOISE .. THROUGH A DIODE ... BACK TO THE SOURCE OR RECHARGE BATTERIES ...

THATS IT!!

THE REST OF MY PULSE MOTOR GENERATOR IS TO SELF RUN AND TO GENERATE ENGERY ..

SURE THERE IS MORE TO IT BUT FOR YOUR JT'S THIS IS WHAT YOU NEED ..

IST!

PS IM CHARGEING POSITIVE SIDE OF THE BATTERY...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 27, 2009, 09:29:53 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on May 27, 2009, 08:00:19 PM
The laws about AC are not even close to right .

It is taught that if you have a transformer with 2 secondarys half of the AC will be induced in each seconday
That is true ...........but if it is a high frequency transformer it can really screw up a TV in the next room .

where did you learned this ? at school ?
no way.

@all
believe whatever, or whoever, you want about laws, phenomenas and effects.

i quit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 27, 2009, 09:32:49 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 27, 2009, 06:43:21 PM
I believe we have been taught that ac is a fast moving dc.

believe or is what you have been taught ?

strange, that is not what was teached to me.
at least it is not what i made of what was teached to me.

AC is a DC polarities "timed" changes.
you push electrons to one side then push them back to where they started in a given period of time.
no matter whitch way you push them, you are doing was is called "positive work"

Quote from: jeanna on May 27, 2009, 06:43:21 PM
But it really is the other way around.
DC is a one way kind of AC. A snapshot, so to speak.

yes, DC is a one way push.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 27, 2009, 09:35:53 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on May 27, 2009, 09:29:40 PM
I WILL SHARE MORE NOW AS I HAVE MORE TIME ...

IM STANDING UP NOW FOR THOSE THAT DONT KNOW ....

8)

SO I GREW A WEE BIT IN MY TIME AWAY ...

SO THIS IS THE PRINCIBLE OF THE PULSE MOTOR AND THERE IS A LOT MORE TO IT TOO

BUT THIS WILL HELP EVERYONE ...

I SUPPLY 12 DC ON MY INPUT ...

IN MY FINISHED UNIT I WILL CHARGE AT 120 VDC CONSTANT ... PER COIL IF I SO DESIRE THE HIGHER THE CHARGE VOLTAGE YOU ALLOW TO PUSH THE FASTER MY MOTOR RUNS ...

THE TESTS I DESCRIBED EARLYER WERE DONE ON 1 COIL ... I HAVE 8 COILS....

EACH CAN CHARGE 10 DC 12V BATTERIES WITH EASE .....

THE CHARGE RATE IS DETUMINED BY THE VALUE OF THE CAP ...

SO OUT OF THE BRIDGE ... TO THE CAP OF YOUR CHOISE .. THROUGH A DIODE ... BACK TO THE SOURCE OR RECHARGE BATTERIES ...

THATS IT!!

THE REST OF MY PULSE MOTOR GENERATOR IS TO SELF RUN AND TO GENERATE ENGERY ..

SURE THERE IS MORE TO IT BUT FOR YOUR JT'S THIS IS WHAT YOU NEED ..

IST!

I am sorry I do not understand? Are you saying take the Diode Bridge and from the + side of the bridge attach one leg of a cap of some value then attach the other leg of the cap to a blocking diode that goes to the + of the battery to be charged And the from the - of the battery go back to the - of the bridge?

Thank you!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 27, 2009, 09:39:11 PM

Quote from: altrez on May 27, 2009, 08:43:04 PM
Thank you for the advice! Can you recommended some Super Caps that I can order online to test with?

the 1 farad kind should be enough for testing and do not cost a leg.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on May 27, 2009, 09:44:24 PM

O IM SORRY BRO

I HAVE MY CAPS HOOKED RIGHT OFF THE BRIDGE POS AND NEG TO BRIDGE THEN POS ONLY TO RECHARGE BATTERY FROM THE CAP OR IF YOU ARE USEING A SINGLE DIODE OFF YOUR JT THEN YOU CAN TAKE GROUND FOR YOUR CAP RIGHT FROM SOURCE BATTERY

NEG OF RECHARGING BATTERY SHARES COMMON GROUND WITH DRIVEING BATTERY

CHEERS !

IST!

PS YOU MUST HAVE THE DIODE OFF THE CAP OR IT WILL BACK FEED .... THE CAP FILLS UP AND PUSHES ...

IM BUILDING TONIGHT ... SO I MAY MAKE A VIDEO OF THE MK2 COILS I WILL USE FOR THE SH!FT COIL IF I DO I WILL HOOK IT UP AS I DESCRIBE ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 27, 2009, 09:56:56 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on May 27, 2009, 05:38:35 PM

I agree in part
Simply looking at the voltage is not a very good indicator of how much energy is available in a battery .
Batterys store the energy in chemical form .... so the interaction is complex

As I see it if your battery has less ability to power a load with each charge cycle of your circuit then the volts are indeed empty .
If the battery lasts as long in later tests as it did in earlier tests then it is charged with real voltage .

gary

Edit
I have read that the Bedini SG does not really charge the batterys as it seems to ........It is said that each cycle the battery holds less .

I do not believe it .

A skeptic only needs to win one argument to win.
No matter how good your idea is ....... you won't take the time to get it going if you no longer believe it will work
This forum has lost alot of great ideas to this little fact .

A common tactic is to attack one fact as if it was the whole project .
If they can prove a point about that one fact ...... the whole project is usually dropped .

Not for a second . SOme Bedinies are ou / like mine ;) Have you checked out My video on a hard drive bedini with a piggy back coil . Well first this Bedini Bi coil puts out enuff amps to light a 130 volts incandescent lamp continuously and this type of current has fried many Sla Battery already . It uses a cap to make the amps from the BEMF . Simple . This However Makes a wet Cell battery 10 time more efficient without the heat of a hard charger using one diode and a cap you still get a pulsing from the output . a bridge and a cap no . Its Filtered good and converts all the pulses to dc amps There is probably still a trace of a induced pulse from the components being so close to the coil however .The Piggyback coil alone keeps the Primary battery hot at all times . It Is a wet Cell battery . The Piggy back current it over 80 milliamps . the Bedini only takes less than 20 ma to run . I am Proud of it and i dont even care if anyone believes it or not . All i care about is its OU to me and i Charge every battery i have with it for free . even non rechargeable . 40 or 50 times before they rupture and leak .

Aaltrez . your friend does not know what we are doing . you cannot light up 100-400 leds with a dc to dc converted running on one volt . I think not . you need the ac we are getting from the BEMF . that's the key to our energy . We are capturing the OFF voltage . thus the reverse dc pulse make it look like ac. The Charge you are getting is Real if it was dead to begin with and thus you are recharging it and using it by swapping it so its a real charge . Other wise if you only had one battery and ran just lights . when its dead its dead . now to have a way to capture the wasted voltage and store it . I'm an Electronics technician and for 30 years have been repairing everything down to the component level and i know first hand when i build My first bedini that the whole story was never taught .They teach you that when you put x amount of ac in a transformer that has say two secondaries that it splits the current between the two but they dont tell you you can harness the heat and make electricity from that with a pelteir module or that you can capture the Rf Field with other coils and germanium diodes and get power from that . or the fact . Just a few things i had to learn on my own . The Charge on My E-lights is real . I took a 3 battery system and turned it into a one battery system and it still does what it was intended to do ,Longer light now and PLUS it recharges another battery so you will always have a battery hot . I can tell you i have ran my design over 2 weeks flipping and she still lights up all night . , This is not Normal Electronics operations . This is something else not on the market for a good reason . It would upset the economy to have everything power itself so they say . I don;'t care about the Economy . I care about having free energy and keeping the money in My pocket for food not stinking oil and Nuclear power plant Misers . If i build it and i see it does something nothing else will then i have accomplished a bi of that and did not hurt any one and in fact saved money from buying two more batteries .;)

@ I have said it before the Jt is an RF source , a transmitter also rather than a transformer alone and you can light up neons and tubes and leds with 1/100 the specified power that was required to light these devices with RF a form of ac .

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 27, 2009, 09:58:44 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on May 27, 2009, 09:44:24 PM
O IM SORRY BRO

I HAVE MY CAPS HOOKED RIGHT OFF THE BRIDGE POS AND NEG TO BRIDGE THEN POS ONLY TO RECHARGE BATTERY FROM THE CAP OR IF YOU ARE USEING A SINGLE DIODE OFF YOUR JT THEN YOU CAN TAKE GROUND FOR YOUR CAP RIGHT FROM SOURCE BATTERY

NEG OF RECHARGING BATTERY SHARES COMMON GROUND WITH DRIVEING BATTERY

CHEERS !

IST!

PS YOU MUST HAVE THE DIODE OFF THE CAP OR IT WILL BACK FEED .... THE CAP FILLS UP AND PUSHES ...

IM BUILDING TONIGHT ... SO I MAY MAKE A VIDEO OF THE MK2 COILS I WILL USE FOR THE SH!FT COIL IF I DO I WILL HOOK IT UP AS I DESCRIBE ...

Ok I think I understand now :) will any cap do?

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 27, 2009, 10:07:26 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 27, 2009, 09:56:56 PM
Not for a second . SOme Bedinies are ou / like mine ;) Have you checked out My video on a hard drive bedini with a piggy back coil . Well first this Bedini Bi coil puts out enuff amps to light a 103 volts incandescent lamp continuously and this type of current has fried many Sla Battery already . This However Makes a wet Cell battery 10 time more efficient without the heat of a hard charger . The Piggyback coil alone keeps the Primary battery hot at all times . It Is a wet Cell battery . The Piggy back current it over 80 milliamps . the Bedini only takes less than 20 ma to run . I am Proud of it and i dont even care if anyone believes it or not . All i care about is its OU to me and i Charge every battery i have with it for free . even non rechargeable . 40 or 50 times before they rupture and leak .

Aaltrez . your friend does not know what we are doing . you cannot light up 100-400 leds with a dc to dc converted running on one volt . I think not . you need the ac we are getting from the BEMF . that's the key to our energy . We are capturing the OFF voltage . thus the reverse dc pulse make it look like ac. The Charge you are getting is Real if it was dead to begin with and thus you are recharging it and using it by swapping it so its a real charge . Other wise if you only had one battery and ran just lights . when its dead its dead . now to have a way to capture the wasted voltage and store it . I'm an Electronics technician and for 30 years have been repairing everything down to the component leverl and i know first hand when i build My first bedini that the whole store was never taught . The Charge on My E-lights is real . I took a 3 battery system and turned it into a one battery system and it still does what it was intended to do ,Longer light now and PLUS it recharges another battery so you will always have a battery hot . I can tell you i have ran my design over 2 weeks flipping and she still lights up all night . , This is not Normal Electronics operations . This is something else not on the market for a good reason . It would upset the economy to have everything power itself so they say . I don;'t care about the Economy . I care about having free energy and keeping the money in My pocket for food not stinking oil and Nuclear power plant Misers . If i build it and i see it does something nothing else will then i have accomplished a bi of that and did not hurt any one and in fact saved money from buying two more batteries .;)

Gadget

:) It is running right now. In charging mode! Same two battery's I need to figure out a way to automatically switch when the voltage gets low.

I still have yet to tune anything I think if I swtich to a 4-12 on the primary and 4 pickup coils of 50 turns each I will do a whole lot better!

Oh and BTW I am not OU but I believe you are I have seen some of Bedini's stuff and it looks legit to me! I made a IRO and it works and cost all of 4 bucks :)

It can charge non rechargeable battery's just fine I love it! I have made like 5 now for friends and they love them as well.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on May 27, 2009, 10:10:59 PM

@altrez

I have found a way to have light mode and charge mode at the same time !

I posted it in my last post Dummy toroid!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 27, 2009, 10:20:11 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on May 27, 2009, 09:39:11 PM
the 1 farad kind should be enough for testing and do not cost a leg.

1 Farad Wont do what he want to do . I have several 10 farads and they wont run a jt a day . Now if 1 farad is 1 amp then 650 farad is 650 amps . This is why it burns a stranded lamp cord in half instantaneously . You cant get 650 amps in a 2 inch diameter package no where for 55 dollars and youy sure cant buy a leg that cheap ;) I know these Super caps will run a jt for weeks and best of all it can be used for the Earth battery for real amp harvesting rather than a tiny 1 farad cap that wont last a few hours .

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 27, 2009, 10:23:01 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on May 27, 2009, 10:10:59 PM
@altrez

I have found a way to have light mode and charge mode at the same time !

I posted it in my last post Dummy toroid!

Yeah mine ls running 10 leds right now and charging at the same time :)

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 27, 2009, 10:25:33 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 27, 2009, 10:20:11 PM
1 Farad Wont do what he want to do . I have several 10 farads and they wont run a jt a day . Now if 1 farad is 1 amp then 650 farad is 650 amps . This is why it burns a stranded lamp cord in half instantaneously . You cant get 650 amps in a 2 inch diameter package no where for 55 dollars and youy sure cant buy a leg that cheap ;) I know these Super caps will run a jt for weeks and best of all it can be used for the Earth battery for real amp harvesting rather than a tiny 1 farad cap that wont last a few hours .

Gadget

Quick question how log does it take to charge one of those monsters :) I might buy one payday! Will it charge from a JT? have you tried charging it from 1 aa?

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on May 27, 2009, 10:26:04 PM

@all

The Dummy toroid is so good i had to make a drawing !

I can put a heavy load on the dummy pickup coil without losing the high voltage on the regular secondary or changing the freq !

So one could light a neon or cfl while charging ! the circuit dose not consume more energy !

Edit altrez can you light one led and on neon at the same time ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 27, 2009, 10:28:32 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on May 27, 2009, 10:26:04 PM
@all

The Dummy toroid is so good i had to make a drawing !

I can put a heavy load on the dummy pickup coil without losing the high voltage on the regular secondary or changing the freq !

So one could light a neon or cfl while charging ! the circuit dose not consume more energy !

That is awesome work Mk1!!!!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 27, 2009, 10:31:20 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 27, 2009, 10:20:11 PM
1 Farad Wont do what he want to do . I have several 10 farads and they wont run a jt a day .

that is exactly why it is good to test for OU.
you don't have to wait weeks to find if you have or not.

to use them as a source is not the same thing.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 27, 2009, 11:07:56 PM

Quote from: altrez on May 27, 2009, 10:25:33 PM
Quick question how log does it take to charge one of those monsters :) I might buy one payday! Will it charge from a JT? have you tried charging it from 1 aa?

-Altrez

I have not . Here is what i have done . I have charged it close to full capacity with 7 hours of sun with one tiny cis 5 volt panel . I am running test with it on an earth batteyr and it charges to a bit over one volt and runs a Jt with two 200k leds on it . across the two leds i read over 2.8 volts . I have charged it almost instantly with a 50 amp battery charger in about 30 seconds . The battery charger leads get Fire hot like a dead short and the voltage must be monitored if you do this so you don't go over the 2.7 volts . . I have not tried an aa battery yet . Closest thing is the earthbattery with its meager milliamps still charges it over a day . Probably faster without the jt load . BTW i have a special hook up and the jt is not directly connected to the charging EB but is connected to an identical EB inches from the original Eb RODS :)) There is a Slight enuff resistance even in dry ground that allows the cap voltage to bleed over a bit to brighten up the jt which runs on the eb alone . Kind of complicated and just experimenting with a different setup every week and noting the effects . . I do have a circuit which shuts off the Jt in the day and boosts the charge . here it is . I made it a bit better and the jt specs are not included but any jt will work . I have posted this before but made a slight modification . this Should run forever if the tiny solar panel is sealed up . Meaning out live Us .. I am working on a kool little circuit that switches out two sets of batteries without using a PIC programmer . When I have it completed and tested i will post it .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 27, 2009, 11:10:28 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on May 27, 2009, 10:26:04 PM
@all

The Dummy toroid is so good i had to make a drawing !

I can put a heavy load on the dummy pickup coil without losing the high voltage on the regular secondary or changing the freq !

So one could light a neon or cfl while charging ! the circuit dose not consume more energy !

Edit altrez can you light one led and on neon at the same time ?

Hey Mark . I see your hard at it . NICE DUMMY ;D

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 27, 2009, 11:19:51 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on May 27, 2009, 10:26:04 PM
@all

The Dummy toroid is so good i had to make a drawing !

I can put a heavy load on the dummy pickup coil without losing the high voltage on the regular secondary or changing the freq !

That sure looks like the 2 tier to me. you are taking one wire from the dummy "primary" and one wire from the dummy "secondary"
Yes?
Yippie!

And, can you juggle 5 balls and balance a dish on your nose? ;D
OK so, tomorrow, I will see how far I can push those wires.

I suppose you put some diodes on that before it went to the battery to charge.

Would somebody please describe to me exactly which way to put the diodes? OR is it a diode bridge that goes to charge the battery?

Way to go MK1

thank you so much,
jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 27, 2009, 11:31:33 PM

@jeanna

Its a Diode bridge that you use to charge the battery :)

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 27, 2009, 11:43:15 PM

Quote from: altrez on May 27, 2009, 11:31:33 PM
@jeanna

Its a Diode bridge that you use to charge the battery :)

-Altrez

OK
You mean the diamond thing? I bought some 4007's to make a new bridge, but didn't do it yet.

REALLY? sometimes I get 60 to 100 volts on that thing. Won't it overcharge the battery?

thank you I did not suspect that it was ok to do that,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 27, 2009, 11:43:31 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on May 27, 2009, 05:08:41 PM

Altrez

What is empty voltage ?

It looks to me like your friend is very well educated .
It looks to me like your friend learned all he knows without questioning it much.
To me it is clear that the curriculum of even our best collages has been tweaked by people that have a vested interest in keeping people hooked on their power .
The "quirks " that we could use to get OU are simply not discussed in any detail .....they are not studied .
How to get around these quirks is taught in great detail

It is good to trust your friend ...........but just because he has a good education does not mean he has the real facts .

Trust what is on your workbench .
If you can power something with a battery you recharge with your system ........who cares if the voltage is " empty "

Keep up the good work

:)

gary

what the friend is saying about "empty voltage" is the same reason why i do not practice using a bedini motor. when you send a high voltage to a low voltage battery you "artificially inflate" the voltage on the battery. basically the battery stores a higher voltage but does not have any amps to back it. the amps is required also to do work.

if you want to know if you have "empty voltage" in the battery measure the voltage of the battery when its fully charged from a regular charger. then discharge it and recharge with a bedini or JT to the same voltage and discharge again. time the discharge on both occasions and you will see what the true work is. if they are relatively the same then you have a full charge if they are different then you have empty voltage.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 27, 2009, 11:48:30 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on May 27, 2009, 11:43:31 PM
... if they are relatively the same then you have a full charge if they are different then you have empty voltage.

Of course all of our leds use empty voltage anyway, so why not?
;)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on May 27, 2009, 11:48:39 PM

@all

Why not take amp reading on the battery , be careful if you do !

But if it only gives out voltage and the amp constantly go down , we will still manage any jt circuit from 30 mili .

Now if that is so , how long would that take and also how many time can you charge a rechargeable.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 27, 2009, 11:55:47 PM

@Seprue and IST

Quote from: stprue on May 27, 2009, 01:24:09 PM
Very interesting and easy to build!

I just want to thank IST who provided this link and stprue for submitting this again.
I have just been enjoying a well spent couple of hours playing with all the electrical circuit simulators in this web site. ;D

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 27, 2009, 11:57:19 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on May 27, 2009, 11:43:31 PM
what the friend is saying about "empty voltage" is the same reason why i do not practice using a bedini motor. when you send a high voltage to a low voltage battery you "artificially inflate" the voltage on the battery. basically the battery stores a higher voltage but does not have any amps to back it. the amps is required also to do work.

if you want to know if you have "empty voltage" in the battery measure the voltage of the battery when its fully charged from a regular charger. then discharge it and recharge with a bedini or JT to the same voltage and discharge again. time the discharge on both occasions and you will see what the true work is. if they are relatively the same then you have a full charge if they are different then you have empty voltage.

Artic it's a Misconception that the Bedini energizer puts out only Static voltage . True it does produce a static charge IF its not tuned and you don't go ahead and build the rest of the circuit which KICKS up the KICK . a bridge and a cap and a diode is all that is takes to get CURRENT from a Bedini Secondary .All Mine have Current and all My bedinies can be Switched to desulfanate (pulsed) or Charge (Filtered kick)

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on May 28, 2009, 12:05:58 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 27, 2009, 11:57:19 PM
Artic it's a Misconception that the Bedini energizer puts out only Static voltage . True it does produce a static charge IF its not tuned and you don't go ahead and build the rest of the circuit which KICKS up the KICK . a bridge and a cap and a diode is all that is takes to get CURRENT from a Bedini Secondary .All Mine have Current and all My bedinies can be Switched to desulfanate (pulsed) or Charge (Filtered kick)

Gadget

i totally agree...

with out the out cap you got a reconditioner ... ;) :D

ist!

and i think a surface charge is atained ...

i found my best chargeing results came from a full wave geramium diode bridge ..

i have used 4001 and 4007 bridges with much poorer results like 40 vdc .. the diff is in the resistance of the diode ...

use a microwave diode you cant go wrong ... 8)

i will make a bridge of them and see what will be ..

altho they love the kick and the speed ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on May 28, 2009, 12:09:24 AM

@ist

What is up bros ! Is your keyboard CAPS broken ? :P :o

Good !!

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 28, 2009, 12:15:13 AM

anyways as stated before i will not use any other coil then a tesla bifiliar. case in point i have a jt running from 1mah from the origional JT make using 2 bifiliars and a .001uf cap accross the base resistor. id say its only half lit but hey maybe if i increase the windings or change the ratio we can improve. k now to go run off my earth battery :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: allcanadian on May 28, 2009, 12:26:01 AM

@theNOP

QuoteAC is a DC polarities "timed" changes.
you push electrons to one side then push them back to where they started in a given period of time.
no matter whitch way you push them, you are doing was is called "positive work"

I think you may have meant to say, an Alternating Current is nothing more than a Direct Current in which the "direction" of current flow alternates. That is, the Direct Current flows in one direction and then in the next instant reverses it's direction--- it Alternates. As well it should be noted that physics has proven long ago that the electrons in a conductor move at a snails pace and have little to do with the actual transfer of energy in electrical systems,the energy is in the associated electric and magnetic "fields".

@All
I think we should also understand how this is relates to measurement on our oscilloscopes. A sinusoidal wave (AC) such as domestic power 120v@60Hz will show a rise above zero volts to 120v then back to zero,then below zero volts to negative 120v then back to zero volts. But it should be understood that this is not a "negative" potential voltage, the portion below the zero volts line is where the current has alternated---it has reversed direction because the polarity of the source has reversed. What some call a "negative" voltage is in fact a reversal of voltage polarity which is always relative to the "zero" line(center horizontal line). Our oscilloscopes essentially measure a potential difference or voltage and polarity between two points in a known period of time. This gives us no indication of instantaneous power because power in Watts is volts times "amps". We can test this process by connecting our oscilloscope probes to a battery, note the voltage relative to the zero volts line, then reverse the probes on the battery and note the voltage relative to the zero volts line.
Best Regards
AC

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 28, 2009, 12:40:17 AM

@Resonanceman
I think I have a couple of solutions to increase output.

Quote from: resonanceman on May 27, 2009, 02:06:42 PM
stprue
What I am working on is collecting flyback pulses from JT coils
There are not a lot of ways to hook up the coils so that they add together .....
gary

I have been working on a series parallel circuit to beef up the output of the JT in current only.
My theory is, the JT output streem can be presented to as many secondary (separately wound) toroid's as you would want to put into the circuit.
By paralleling the outputs you double up the current available from each toroid.
For example only, if 1 secondary after rectification is a .5amp, then having 10 separate secondaries
wound on 10 separate toroid's will give a total of 5Amps.

The primaries are "all" connected in "series" the output secondaries be rectified with full wave bridges, all these bridges + & - outputs be coupled in Parallel.

Another way would be to have a JT output presented to all the primaries in parallel, then make an identical second stage as I described in the above sentence.

Yes there will be losses, as in any system, but I hope to minimise that.
I have presented the following jpgs before.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on May 28, 2009, 12:42:20 AM

@ for jeanna

I made a clear schematic of the Dummy.

Edit Electicme i think you will get better result if all toroid in series are wound in opposite direction , so you don't get back waves , this should help get more out !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 28, 2009, 12:42:57 AM

Quote from: allcanadian on May 28, 2009, 12:26:01 AM
@theNOP
I think you may have meant to say, an Alternating Current is nothing more than a Direct Current in which the "direction" of current flow alternates. T...
AC

Hi AC,

That was my point about seeing ac as a 2 way dc. It is the other way around. Until we change how we look at this, we will struggle to get great results.

DC is a very small portion of a larger energy that pulses throughout the cosmos. It is great to use it in our computers and to make batteries that give it out. But AC is where all the power of the universe is. I want to find out how to use it. Tesla left us some information.

thank you for your comments,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 28, 2009, 12:45:14 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on May 28, 2009, 12:42:20 AM
@ for jeanna

I made a clear schematic of the Dummy.

Thank you. It is very clear.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on May 28, 2009, 01:02:19 AM

im thinking it is takion sp lol

this is where it is at ....

lol

melt in your hand not in your mind ... ;)

but orbit is some wild stuff toooooo lol

o its just such a big place ....

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on May 28, 2009, 01:25:21 AM

Quote from: allcanadian on May 28, 2009, 12:26:01 AM
@All
I think we should also understand how this is relates to measurement on our oscilloscopes. A sinusoidal wave (AC) such as domestic power 120v@60Hz will show a rise above zero volts to 120v then back to zero,then below zero volts to negative 120v then back to zero volts. But it should be understood that this is not a "negative" potential voltage, the portion below the zero volts line is where the current has alternated---it has reversed direction because the polarity of the source has reversed. What some call a "negative" voltage is in fact a reversal of voltage polarity which is always relative to the "zero" line(center horizontal line). Our oscilloscopes essentially measure a potential difference or voltage and polarity between two points in a known period of time. This gives us no indication of instantaneous power because power in Watts is volts times "amps". We can test this process by connecting our oscilloscope probes to a battery, note the voltage relative to the zero volts line, then reverse the probes on the battery and note the voltage relative to the zero volts line.
Best Regards
AC

well said. i really wish in this wonderful day and age with striped toothpaste and men on the moon, we could get around to having oscilloscopes that would render in 3D instead of 2.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 28, 2009, 01:47:17 AM

@Bill,
Running a hookup wire from outside to inside the house.

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 27, 2009, 09:43:28 AM
@ Jim:
Ah, the scope on the EB. At first, I was going to take the scope outside for a try but then, I am now thinking that I can just add some heavy wire to the EB leads (only about 6 feet or so) and it will reach into the house. I will have to give that a try just to see if I can see anything from it that makes sense. Thanks again, you have given me a great start for learning this complicated device.
Bill

Bill, I have been doing this for the last 3 years, I can read my earth voltage inside the kitchen, weather the weather is Hot/Freezing Cold/Raining/Fine/Day or Night, easy ACCESS to my setups.

Here is how I set this up, others may be wanting to do this also.
0/ plan where you want to feed the lead into your house, if you own the house, drill a hole through the wall, go on dooooo it, whacko what a feeling, ha ha (no landlord to stop you he he).
or, feed it through the window like I did, I got some 1/4" seal weather tape and layed it flat on the window frame, leave a small gap for the wire lead to fit snugggly through.

1/ get an old extension lead (make sure it will be long enough to do the job)

2/ cut off the plug and socket, and strip 12" of the outer insulation off the lead.
Do this to both ends, then attatch small alligator clips to the bare ends.

3/ remove about 1" of the colour insulation to expose the bare wires.

4/ feed the lead through the hole in the wall or through the window.

5/ connect the bared wires to your earth battery or NS cells.

6/ connect the other end inside the house to an instrument pannel or capacitor, or joule thief or anything you want to connect it to.

Mine is currently connected to my brand spanking new 22Farad super cap,
whoooo hooo Im having fun fun fun.

Yesterday I drove a small chopper tail rotor motor for about 1 minute of a hardly full cap, powered/charged by my EB outside.

This is the first time I have driven any device, it's power derived from the earth itself. ;D ;D ;D

Come on a tour at my place!!!!

0812 = Earth Batt setup, overgrown with grass
0814 = Orange extension lead connected to EB goes up to the side fence top.
0815 = Proceeds along top rail of fence (justs sits there), and proceeds to double gates.
0817 = Lead pokes it's way through fence and exits towards the kitchen window.
0818 = I fed 3 leads over the bottom of the window sill, the window itself has a 12v DC wiper motor to lift it up or down, by the push of a button ha ha.
0820 = wires cross on floor to the modified exhaust gas analizer analog meter, the switch has 3 Tpots set for different voltage settings, so if the EB puts out more juce, I attunite it here.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: allcanadian on May 28, 2009, 02:22:22 AM

@Jeanna

QuoteThat was my point about seeing ac as a 2 way dc. It is the other way around. Until we change how we look at this, we will struggle to get great results.

I once read an eastern proverb which stated--â€œAll instruction is but a finger pointing to the moon; and those whose gaze is fixed upon the pointer will never see beyond.â€
I would agree the problem is one of perspective, too many sheep and not enough wolves, LOL.
Regards
AC

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 28, 2009, 02:22:44 AM

@Altrez
Thanks Al, for these kind comments ;) and I see you have done so much more than I have.

Quote from: altrez on May 27, 2009, 03:44:08 PM
Thank you Jim! It is very neat how we all seem to end up replicating each others work independently. It really seems to confirm the fact that there is so much more to this circuit then I thought before.

I have charged battery's and filled caps. I have pushed motors and lit neon's. I have even ran a 13watt CFL from a FUJI mode that was powered from a battery connected to a switch that is ran to my Main JT that is charged from a battery that is recharged from a different JT And this all can be done with out introducing any new energy into the system. :) All from the same battery's.

I plan on adding 6 charging points on my main setup with 4 2.9 inch Toroids connected to one main JT circuit. So far I am still running on the same set of battery's I started with on Monday. Adding a 50F SC to the mix soon that should push my efficiency up quite a bit.

The Cap will be in place to allow a fall off period for the battery's in separate tests I noticed that the battery's seem to have more power If allowed to rest for 1 hour or more?

I still have a bunch of work to do. I do feel like this will keep on going as long as there is power in the JT. I took a battery from .900mV to 1.2 v in 12 hours. It normally takes me 5-6 hours to recharge from mains.

I plan on getting some of the 15 minute rechargeable battery's and pumping a Super Cap into them to see if they get a full charge. So at that point I will have the super caps charging the batters that are running the circuit that keeps the caps charged and also still run a DC motor, LEDS CFL with Fuji mod all from on circuit and a 1.2 v power source.

Take care!!!!

-Altrez

Your results which you have posted above are very good indeed.

I think is we all take a look at paralling outputs via multiple secondary toroids, then this could give out much higher currents.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 28, 2009, 02:52:10 AM

@Altrez,

Quote from: altrez on May 27, 2009, 04:48:06 PM
@all
Just explained the setup to a friend and he said that it was not working like I think? He is an EE and was in the Air Force for 30 years. He basically said the JT is simply a transformer and that a DC - DC converter is far more efficient then a JT when converting to DC?

Not sure about all that but I do trust him. He also said that I was not really charging the battery's at all? And that the voltage was empty?

Can anyone explain that?

Thanks!

-Altrez

Al, the best advice I can give is to believe what you see occurs with your own experiments, and what your instruments tell you. Then double check all again to be certain, so if someone debunks you, well, you know and he/she dosent.

DC to DC converters generally start from an input of 12vDC and convert this to a higher voltage or reduce it to a lower voltage. They have current limitations on their outputs and they need amperage to perform, their losses are high to get their results, just see if they put out heat as the indicator for that.

Had this person actually made a joule thief, and ran tests on it?

Remember, this forum is seeking several ways in it's usage, some are trying to see how much voltage they can achieve, others are finding out what and different devices they can run off it.
Others here are trying to see if they can help by theory, sometimes I fall into this group when I'm not experimenting.

I have told several people in person what we all are doing here, only one person (an old school chum I met last weekend at a school class reunion) showed any real understanding at all.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 28, 2009, 02:58:41 AM

@wilbyInebriated,
Well said, spot on Wilby.

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on May 27, 2009, 05:03:31 PM
sounds like a knee jerk reaction. you can test the 'empty' voltage and see how 'empty' it is.

Testing "empty" voltage, now that is a new one to me, mabe he meant there is no amperage, ha I had my ase kicked real good last week, with "empty" voltage, LOL

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 28, 2009, 03:13:53 AM

@Jeanna,

Quote from: jeanna on May 27, 2009, 05:46:54 PM
The amount of energy we are using that is unrecovered should only be the amount that is ACTUALLY dissipated by the load. The rest should be able to be returned to the battery.

jeanna

I fully agree, actually this single statement above sums up the goal of the forum as I see it. :D

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 28, 2009, 03:57:10 AM

@ Jim:

I agree 100%! I have lit 100 leds, a 48" tube and then 200 leds from the EB using "empty" voltage. I am taking quite a ribbing on youtube with some of the comments. One guy said... (and this was on the video with the 48" tube) that the EB will NEVER put out more than .0001 volts and less than .00001 mA's and I will never be able to do ANYTHING with that little power. Remember, this was on the video where I am lighting a long tube. Go figure.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 28, 2009, 04:07:27 AM

@Altrez
@stprue
@all
Yes, just 10 minutes ago I made a WenyTinyVideo which shows my experiment I made running a electric motor, powered by the earth energy.

Quote from: altrez on May 27, 2009, 06:31:27 PM
Yes I am powering a small motor right now from a Bridge. And I believe Jim is as well. Nice work with SC!

-Altrez

I charged my 22F 2.5v super cap by my earth battery to just under a 1/3 of a volt, then connected my small dc electric motor which has a tiny propeller mounted on its shaft.

This ran for about 7 minutes, from energy that I used from my earth battery, out in the back yard..
The power is taken stright from the earth electrodes, no diodes to rectify, it slowly fills into my 22F Super Capacitor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 28, 2009, 04:24:16 AM

@all
This is the second part of my TinyWinyVideo of my small electric motor running from my earth powered batt capacitor.
For those interrested, the motor I took out of one of those electric powered remote contrilled helecopters, I believe there is a tiny rechargable cell in them also.

This motor ran for about 7 minutes all up, at 1/3 of 1.0 volts.

Click on the PaperClipp BELOW the video icon to watch the motor running

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 28, 2009, 04:49:22 AM

@All
Gary brings up an important point here, and I have noticed others have mentioned this in passing.

Quote from: resonanceman on May 27, 2009, 08:25:01 PM

I do think that at when we start using higher power we should start monitoring the RF noise that a JT can make .
for the larger ones it might make sense to keep them below radio frequency .......so we don't get the FCC knocking on our doors .
gary

If you don't want the FCC in your country on your doorstep then build a large faraday cage about the size of a chook pen (hen that lay eggs pen).
Make the frame out of wood, then cover all 6 sides with a woven metal mesh, say fly wire, insect wire, then earth every side.
Don't forget a door.
If you carn't get woven mesh, use alfoil, the stuff used for baking yummies to eat.

@Bill,
Would you be able to conduct a test using some of your PI gear to see if the JT is sending out any RFI?
Thanks

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 28, 2009, 06:42:08 AM

Quote from: allcanadian on May 28, 2009, 12:26:01 AM
@theNOP
I think you may have meant to say, an Alternating Current is nothing more than a Direct Current in which the "direction" of current flow alternates. That is, the Direct Current flows in one direction and then in the next instant reverses it's direction--- it Alternates. As well it should be noted that physics has proven long ago that the electrons in a conductor move at a snails pace and have little to do with the actual transfer of energy in electrical systems,the energy is in the associated electric and magnetic "fields".

what is the fact that electrons move slowly got to do with the fact that the current flow alternates ?

since the electrons are said to go from a positive to a negative pole, or is it the holes ?, does not matter, whats matter is the fact they move.
if they move, they can move in either direction regardless of their speed, no ?
the polarity changes is what make the current alternate.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 28, 2009, 07:27:53 AM

@ Allcanadian,
Thats right, same thing for 240v AC at 50Hz people like me.

Quote from: allcanadian on May 28, 2009, 12:26:01 AM
@theNOP
I think you may have meant to say, an Alternating Current is nothing more than a Direct Current in which the "direction" of current flow alternates. That is, the Direct Current flows in one direction and then in the next instant reverses it's direction--- it Alternates. As well it should be noted that physics has proven long ago that the electrons in a conductor move at a snails pace and have little to do with the actual transfer of energy in electrical systems,the energy is in the associated electric and magnetic "fields".

@All
I think we should also understand how this is relates to measurement on our oscilloscopes. A sinusoidal wave (AC) such as domestic power 120v@60Hz will show a rise above zero volts to 120v then back to zero,then below zero volts to negative 120v then back to zero volts. But it should be understood that this is not a "negative" potential voltage, the portion below the zero volts line is where the current has alternated---it has reversed direction because the polarity of the source has reversed. What some call a "negative" voltage is in fact a reversal of voltage polarity which is always relative to the "zero" line(center horizontal line). Our oscilloscopes essentially measure a potential difference or voltage and polarity between two points in a known period of time. This gives us no indication of instantaneous power because power in Watts is volts times "amps". We can test this process by connecting our oscilloscope probes to a battery, note the voltage relative to the zero volts line, then reverse the probes on the battery and note the voltage relative to the zero volts line.
Best Regards
AC

If two Batteries are connected together with a Neg to Pos connection together, their 3 outputs are generally refered to as (+) (0) (-) Many IC circuits require such a voltage configuration.

For instance, the following voltage regulators LM2805 (5volt +) and the LM2905 (5volt -) are designed for this purpose.
These are called DUAL voltage circuits.

jim

Photo 0823.JPG
In the JPG below, The top battery terminal is (+) 9 volts
The centertap is the 0 volt point
The Bottom terminal is the (-) 9 volts

For IST
Would these 4 microwave 12KV diodes be what you were referring to?
0822.jpg
I have 8 more of them, but they are square ones
HVR-062 and 2X062h

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 28, 2009, 07:39:05 AM

@all

Ok question. I have a small ceramic cap hooked up in this way:

From the positive side of my diode bridge I have one leg of a small 0.1uF 50WVDC cap on the other leg of the cap I have the positive hook up of my battery. From the negative side of my battery I have it hoked up into the negative side of the diode bridge.

Is that correct? And how will that work exactly? what if I hooked up a 16v electrolytic cap in parallel with the diode bride and then added the battery behind that? would the cap fill up to 35 volts then dumb that charge into the battery?

And how would I set that up? Would I take the + from bridge to + on electrolytic the - form electrolytic to positive on battery? then from the negative on the battery go to the negative on the bridge?

Thank you all so much. I am weak when it comes to caps.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 28, 2009, 07:49:37 AM

Ac is more complex than just flipping polarity . there are three components to ac . Ac can carry thousands of different Frequencys at one time . The Most Common are one frequency . the sine ,the square and the trapezoid Waveforms. It can be made to Slow down or speed up . Ac can emit electromagnetic radiation in high Volume . Ac Is not By any Means Fully disclosed by Electronics theory. There is Undiscovered properties remaining in Ac that are not yet reviled .The Third Component Is Modulation . and that in it self opened more possibilities for this type of power . their is Fm am UHF Vhf microwave and all these can be mixed or multiplexed on one wave of an ac signal . etc Ac can be modulated to a wide spectrum of the electromagnetic wave band. therefor it is unique and a part of the JT Discovery ..
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 28, 2009, 09:14:40 AM

@Gadgetmall

This is true, our power mob here puts signals into the power grid, to switch on and off our hot water systems, if I put my TV close to the meter box, I can actually hear the streem of data.

I have heard that anyone can use the power grid to send any internet traffic through these power lines, but you have to have the special black boxes to do so at each end of the grid.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 28, 2009, 10:39:44 AM

Quote from: electricme on May 28, 2009, 04:07:27 AM
@Altrez
@stprue
@all
Yes, just 10 minutes ago I made a WenyTinyVideo which shows my experiment I made running a electric motor, powered by the earth energy.

I charged my 22F 2.5v super cap by my earth battery to just under a 1/3 of a volt, then connected my small dc electric motor which has a tiny propeller mounted on its shaft.

This ran for about 7 minutes, from energy that I used from my earth battery, out in the back yard..
The power is taken stright from the earth electrodes, no diodes to rectify, it slowly fills into my 22F Super Capacitor.

Nice work I knew it could be done. ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on May 28, 2009, 11:11:36 AM

@ JIM

YOU BET YA!!! ;)

GREAT WORK BRO 8)

I HAVE HAD GREAT RESULTS USEING THOSE SAME DIODES ... HIGH VOLTAGE HIGH FREQ!!

NOW

WHERE YOU WANT TO GO ... :)

CHECK OUT HOW A CASCADE WORKS ... :)

LETS SAY WE HAVE 5 DIODES AND 5 CAPS ... SO IF EACH CAP WAS 1000VDC ... YOU WILL END UP WITH 5 KV...

WITH DIODES INBETWEEN ... LOL ;) ;) ;)

WHAT WILL BE ?!?!?!?! O YES I DO KNOW DAMM WELL

LOL

OK THEN WE GOT US A SPARK GAP LIKE A STUN GUN .... LOL

RIGHT BUT AS A SPARK GAP WORKS ON DISTANCE SO DOES THIS ...

TRICK IS THE BLOCKING DIODE ... SO WE DONT LOOSE OUR RESEVRE ...

WHEN THE 5KV CAPS ARE FULL THE SPARK WILL JUMP AND DUMP TO THE COIL .. BUT THE CONSERVED POWER WILL REMAIN ...
LOL

YOU WILL ONLY DROP 500 V THERE BOUTS .. AND YOU GOT ALL THAT 4500VDC PUSH POWER YOU ONLY TOP IT UP... TO DO IT ALL AGIN ....

NOW TO RECTIFY IT ... AND MAKE IT USEFUL ..

THIS IS SOOOOOOOOO TESLA LOL

IM NOT SURE MANY KNOW BOUT THIS ...

IST!

JUST AN UPDATE IN MY LIFE .... MY LITTLE BLYSS BROKE HER LEG ... :( I HAVE YET TO SEE HER SINCE THIS TOOK PLACE ...

AND HER MOTHER HAS YET TO TELL ME .... SAD ALL THEASE NEGITIVE PEOPLE ... IN THIS ILLUSION ... LOL

BEEN ALMOST A WEEK SINCE IT TOOK PLACE ...

WE STARTED OUT IN 2005!! JUST THE 2 OF US .... ME AND MY MISTRY MISS :)

CUZ YOUR MINE I WALK THE LINE ... 1 DAY YOU ALL WILL FIND !! :)

I KEEP A CLOSE WATCH ON THIS HEART OF MINE ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7K4jH7NqUw&NR=1

IST!

GOT YOUR SNARE DRUM YET !?!?!?!?!?!

WHEN YOU GONNA RINGG IT ...

AND WHAT WILL BE WHEN YOU DO ....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 28, 2009, 11:37:19 AM

Quote from: electricme on May 28, 2009, 04:24:16 AM
@all
This is the second part of my TinyWinyVideo of my small electric motor running from my earth powered batt capacitor.
For those interrested, the motor I took out of one of those electric powered remote contrilled helecopters, I believe there is a tiny rechargable cell in them also.

This motor ran for about 7 minutes all up, at 1/3 of 1.0 volts.

Click on the PaperClipp BELOW the video icon to watch the motor running

Nice work JIM!!! I need to time how long I can run one for. Been very busy will other things.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 28, 2009, 11:41:23 AM

@All kitchen Table Experimenters

ITS LUNCH TIME ON THE EAST COAST
WANT SOME ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 28, 2009, 11:42:42 AM

@all

My empty voltage pictures :)

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 28, 2009, 11:44:30 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 28, 2009, 11:41:23 AM
@All kitchen Table Experimenters

ITS LUNCH TIME ON THE EAST COAST
WANT SOME ?

Looks good!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: allcanadian on May 28, 2009, 11:53:07 AM

@theNOP

Quotewhat is the fact that electrons move slowly got to do with the fact that the current flow alternates ?
since the electrons are said to go from a positive to a negative pole, or is it the holes ?, does not matter, whats matter is the fact they move.
if they move, they can move in either direction regardless of their speed, no ?
the polarity changes is what make the current alternate.

My intent was to clarify a statement so that the people here may better understand what is happening in their circuits, the only thing I can offer is what is known as "common knowledge" in physics. For instance it is common knowledge that the electric and magnetic fields are the mechanism for energy transfer in a conductor not electrons, the electrons moving are an effect that occurs after the fact it is not a cause of an Alternating Current. If we want to understand Alternating Currents I think we should make an effort to understand "what" it is fundamentally. It is also common knowledge in physic's that the electrons move from the negative pole to the positive pole, this is called "electron notation" which corrects Faraday's mistake in thinking they moved from positive to negative. The negative pole is negative because that is where a majority of the electrons reside and these electrons have a negative charge. As well the "hole" analogy is a myth, there are no "holes" it is a bad analogy which is continually repeated in high school textbooks for the sake of simplicity.
I believe these facts do matter, how can we hope to succeed in understanding the nature of the circuits we build when much of what we have read in outdated textbooks amounts to an "urban legend" in this supposedly modern age.
Regards
AC

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on May 28, 2009, 12:02:58 PM

NOW YOU ALL JUST NEED THE COIL ...

FROM THERE YOU WILL LEARN

ALUM IS REQUIRED ...

I PERSONALLY WOULD TRY ...

A PANCAKE OR A T COIL PRIMARY... 8)

ITS ALL ABOUT SURFACE AREA ABOVE 3KV...

IST!

AND WHAT HAPPINS WHEN YOU RINGGGGG IT ... WE~L~ COME HOME .... ;D :o :o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpwDv2ZFsIQ&feature=related

DO YOU SEE YOUR FACE IN MY SONG ...

I DO SEE A FEW I KNOW ..... ;) ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 28, 2009, 12:12:51 PM

@altrez
here is the first experimental e-light prototype version 1 .you can play with .Since then i have redone it with a more efficient circuit but this one will convert a stick up and run for a few days . it will eventually get weaker . My new one actually charges the run while charging the spare .. runs for ?? I checked the plan on your disk and its not in there . that is not the E-light and is a mistake .its the op2 not mine .. . The ferrite bead is tiny and i used #36 wire . the bead is about 1/8 in diameter and about 5/16' long . those tiny beads work better than some of the biggest toroid s i have . Current draw is less than 2 ma on the new model running three bright whites with the feedback to source .the Charge does not make it draw more .

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 28, 2009, 12:19:28 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 28, 2009, 12:12:51 PM
@altrez
here is the first experimental e-light version you can play with .Since then i have redone it with a more efficiant circuit but this one will convert a stick up and run for a few days . it will eventually get weaker . My new one actually charges the run while charging the spare .. runs for ?? I checked the plan on your disk and its not in there . that is not the elight and is a mistake .its the op2 not mine .. .

Gadget

Wow thank you. That looks almost exactly like what I have come up with. It sounds like your new E-Light might be close to Unity?

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 28, 2009, 12:31:11 PM

@ Jim:

Great video!!! You left out an important part of this. you said you were running your motor from the EB and you did....BUT it looks like you left the propeller on the motor shaft so, not only were you running a motor, it was doing work moving air as well. Great job mate!

I did use my RF detector on my "regular" JT circuit and got no response. This was a while back. Now, when I finally get some wound like the rest of you with secondaries, etc. I will check again and I bet I get different results.

@ Altrez:

Nice pics of your empty voltage there. You can tell by looking at those that they are using empty voltage because all they are doing is lighting up....oh wait...that is what they are supposed to do, ha ha. Nice work.

@ All:

I am still about 4 pages behind. I am trying to catch up and keep up. You all make that hard to do.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 28, 2009, 02:35:21 PM

@ gadgetmall

With so many people working on earth batteries perhaps you could post some JT results you have gotten using the germanium transistors to convert a 0.2 volt input into a 1.5 volt (or more) output for charging the super caps. I think a lot of the earth batteries do not always put out over 0.5 volts and thus will not always run a silicon transistor JT.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on May 28, 2009, 02:49:20 PM

@all

A patent for a self sustaining AC powered jt http://www.google.com/patents?id=vI2XAAAAEBAJ&dq=2007/0007844

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 28, 2009, 03:08:16 PM

Some videos from Lidmotor showing his versions of the battery swap JT.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrwQJ7oM9ZI&feature=PlayList&p=BD0E85F83F9482F2&index=3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82cOfAWYYKY&feature=PlayList&p=BD0E85F83F9482F2&index=7

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 28, 2009, 03:49:16 PM

@Jim,
That video tells the story. Great!

How many volts does your meter see from your EB?

@Gadget
bon apetit ! ;D

@xee. I finally remembered to order a couple of those ger transistors from the gadget. Thanks for reminding me.

@Altrez,
Love those empty volts. Keep it going.
It always makes me think of the emperor wearing no clothes...

@Bill
me too. this was a fast mover last night.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on May 28, 2009, 04:00:20 PM

@all

Long time no post.

This is a schematic of a self charging Joule thief. The battery runs the JT and the JT charge the battery back some points below its original starting voltage maintaining a balance indefinitely.
But if you add an LED it does not light.
It does not discharge the battery either.

Can you test it?
If it works as stated.
Can you improve it to work with a pickup coil that uses the same energy used by the original circuit and at the same time lights something?

I know that you have done it. I mean the pickup coil that uses no more energy than the one spent by the original JT and lights something for free.

Thanks in advance and congratulations to all that have had a successful replication of any kind of joule thief from this topic.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 28, 2009, 04:34:53 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 28, 2009, 02:35:21 PM
@ gadgetmall

With so many people working on earth batteries perhaps you could post some JT results you have gotten using the germanium transistors to convert a 0.2 volt input into a 1.5 volt (or more) output for charging the super caps. I think a lot of the earth batteries do not always put out over 0.5 volts and thus will not always run a silicon transistor JT.

What is the max voltage input a germanium transistor can take? Do you loose a lot of current during the .2 to 1.5?

These must be hard to get because they sound great and would help get a lot closer to OU.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 28, 2009, 04:39:36 PM

@ALL

I had a major brake though! I have the JT in what looks to be self oscillating / resonating mode! Here are my notes with how I found it.

Thursday, May 28, 2009

This morning when I left for work. I adjusted the 10k Pot to what I can only describe as resonating or oscillating mode.
Watching the meter and adjusting the pot I found a sweet spot where the voltage would
jump up and down about ever few seconds. form 0.003mv to 2.013V those are ruff estimates. I am using
a TIP31 a Large coated Toroid rated at 5000 permeability a 10k pot and a small ceramic capacitor. I have a diode bridge that is connected to one pickup coil.

I have also noticed with this circuit configuration that I call the "LLA1" the main battery is slightly recharging itself as well.
/end notes

So that is where I am so far. The battery is charging faster and it seems to be drawing less energy to charge.

More to come!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 28, 2009, 04:59:03 PM

@all

the scope says 200kHz and the wave form starts large then shrinks like a wave hitting the beach its crazy. It looks like the volts are hitting over 30 at times!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 28, 2009, 05:13:31 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 28, 2009, 02:35:21 PM
@ gadgetmall

With so many people working on earth batteries perhaps you could post some JT results you have gotten using the germanium transistors to convert a 0.2 volt input into a 1.5 volt (or more) output for charging the super caps. I think a lot of the earth batteries do not always put out over 0.5 volts and thus will not always run a silicon transistor JT.

. Hmmm . WE all i can say is the transistor i use are Mill Sec Us army and Rare . I test each one. As you know i am helping in a funded project for ASRF in The Black Hills and Expensive Data Recorders are being used along with Scientific Evidence of the Earth Battery Length size spacing moisture magnetic ley declination , all the variables .. We are not allowed to use Germanium Transistors for earth Battery because this has to be totally replicable, part have to be readily available and cheap . All My jts are using 2n3904 and 2n2222a can for the Eb project . some results were posted for altrez on My weekly test . earth battery will produce over 1 volt using the proper materials . We are using eco friendly materials as to not harm the environment . We don't use lead cadmium etc.. I sell the germanium transistor for the low power jt projects to individuals that wan to run their Jt on a low output eb . A germanium requires that the toroid be would different . More turns on the primary ,lots more . The Frequency is not near the 2n3904 . once a good primary is wound then the ger transistor will perform as expected of a germanium . Low input high gain . I personally have several Germanium Jts but there data is already posted . .20 volts .20 Ma. . with tweaking i can run on one .16 volts My eb put out close to 2 volts as high as 12 ma sometimes . Normal is 1.1 volts at 3-5 ma . You have to use a proper electrolytic in parallel with any eb . Mine is 3300uf 10volt low esr

Gadget

Gadget .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 28, 2009, 05:31:17 PM

@all,

I think that lighting LEDS / Neons / CFLS form a JT is cool but what I am finding even cooler is that it makes one heck of a charging circuit. I think the LLA1 is going to be a sustaining charging device.

To drive / push my main Toroid configure 5 2.9" Toroid's all connected together.

I am now charging a small electrolytic cap with the same battery that is charging the other battery. This tells me two things 1. that I still have room to harvest energy and 2. That once I add the micro controller for switching it should be hands off :)

I want to thank you all for the great support!

Take care!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 28, 2009, 05:55:17 PM

lookey loo..

I just got 5 toroids and 1 rod.
They range from the size of a nickel US for the eyes to I think 2.4 inches for the mouth. Hi flux and higher flux u=60 and u=125 the big one is u=125
The rod is for a stubblefield generator. I will someday make just one more with this at the core.

jeanna

edit add
@MK1 these are pale green in their real color.
@Altrez. wow. good going!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 28, 2009, 06:04:06 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 28, 2009, 05:55:17 PM
lookey loo..

I just got 5 toroids and 1 rod.
They range from the size of a nickel US for the eyes to I think 2.4 inches for the mouth. Hi flux and higher flux u=60 and u=125 the big one is u=125
The rod is for a stubblefield generator. I will someday make just one more with this at the core.

jeanna

edit add
@MK1 these are pale green in their real color.
@Altrez. wow. good going!

Nice! Can not wait to see what you do with them :)

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 28, 2009, 06:31:03 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 28, 2009, 03:49:16 PM
@Jim,
That video tells the story. Great!

How many volts does your meter see from your EB?

@Gadget
bon apetit ! ;D

@xee. I finally remembered to order a couple of those ger transistors from the gadget. Thanks for reminding me.

@Altrez,
Love those empty volts. Keep it going.
It always makes me think of the emperor wearing no clothes...

@Bill
me too. this was a fast mover last night.

jeanna

I must have missed the video, what page is it on?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 28, 2009, 06:35:20 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on May 28, 2009, 04:00:20 PM
@all

Long time no post.

This is a schematic of a self charging Joule thief. The battery runs the JT and the JT charge the battery back some points below its original starting voltage maintaining a balance indefinitely.
But if you add an LED it does not light.
It does not discharge the battery either.

Can you test it?
If it works as stated.
Can you improve it to work with a pickup coil that uses the same energy used by the original circuit and at the same time lights something?

I know that you have done it. I mean the pickup coil that uses no more energy than the one spent by the original JT and lights something for free.

Thanks in advance and congratulations to all that have had a successful replication of any kind of joule thief from this topic.

Jesus

Some food for thought, if this design is resonating can't we tap into the noise and convert to energy? I know it would be a very small amount but it seems possible!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 28, 2009, 06:40:00 PM

Quote from: altrez on May 28, 2009, 04:39:36 PM
@ALL

I had a major brake though! I have the JT in what looks to be self oscillating / resonating mode! Here are my notes with how I found it.

Thursday, May 28, 2009

This morning when I left for work. I adjusted the 10k Pot to what I can only describe as resonating or oscillating mode.
Watching the meter and adjusting the pot I found a sweet spot where the voltage would
jump up and down about ever few seconds. form 0.003mv to 2.013V those are ruff estimates. I am using
a TIP31 a Large coated Toroid rated at 5000 permeability a 10k pot and a small ceramic capacitor. I have a diode bridge that is connected to one pickup coil.

I have also noticed with this circuit configuration that I call the "LLA1" the main battery is slightly recharging itself as well.
/end notes

So that is where I am so far. The battery is charging faster and it seems to be drawing less energy to charge.

More to come!

-Altrez

I'm not sure what your voltages mean! Do you have a load or is that a supercap reading or is that some reading you're getting messing around with the POT and not getting high voltage but that fluctuating voltage?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 28, 2009, 06:43:06 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 28, 2009, 05:13:31 PM
. Hmmm . WE all i can say is the transistor i use are Mill Sec Us army and Rare . I test each one. As you know i am helping in a funded project for ASRF in The Black Hills and Date Recorders are being used along with Scientific Evidence of the Earth Battery .. We are not allowed to use Germanium Transistors for earth Battery because this has to be totally replicable, part have to be readily available and cheap . All My jts are using 2n3904 and 2n2222a can for the Eb project . some results were posted for altrez on My weekly test . earth battery will produce over 1 volt using the proper materials . We are using eco friendly materials as to not harm the environment . We don't use lead cadmium etc.. I sell the germanium transistor for the low power jt projects to individuals that wan to run their Jt on a low output eb . A germanium requires that the toroid be would different . More turns on the primary ,lots more . The Frequency is not near the 2n3904 . once a good primary is wound then the ger transistor will perform as expected of a germanium . Low input high gain . I personally have several Germanium Jts but there data is already posted . .20 volts .20 Ma. . with tweaking i can run on one .16 volts My eb put out close to 2 volts as high as 12 ma sometimes . Normal is 1.1 volts at 3-5 ma . You have to use a proper electrolytic in parallel with any eb . Mine is 3300uf 10volt low esr

Gadget

Gadget .

I did not know any of that info so thank you for responding ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 28, 2009, 06:44:56 PM

Quote from: altrez on May 28, 2009, 05:31:17 PM
@all,

I think that lighting LEDS / Neons / CFLS form a JT is cool but what I am finding even cooler is that it makes one heck of a charging circuit. I think the LLA1 is going to be a sustaining charging device.

To drive / push my main Toroid configure 5 2.9" Toroid's all connected together.

I am now charging a small electrolytic cap with the same battery that is charging the other battery. This tells me two things 1. that I still have room to harvest energy and 2. That once I add the micro controller for switching it should be hands off :)

I want to thank you all for the great support!

Take care!

-Altrez

I must have missed this... what is a LLA1?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 28, 2009, 06:46:49 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 28, 2009, 05:55:17 PM
lookey loo..

I just got 5 toroids and 1 rod.
They range from the size of a nickel US for the eyes to I think 2.4 inches for the mouth. Hi flux and higher flux u=60 and u=125 the big one is u=125
The rod is for a stubblefield generator. I will someday make just one more with this at the core.

jeanna

edit add
@MK1 these are pale green in their real color.
@Altrez. wow. good going!

Jeanna those toroids look similar to the ones Hazens1 is using, did you get them from the same site?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 28, 2009, 06:47:57 PM

WOW

you can tell when I get out of work can't you?

POST>>>POST>>>POST>>>POST

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 28, 2009, 07:05:31 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on May 28, 2009, 04:00:20 PM
@all

Long time no post.

This is a schematic of a self charging Joule thief. The battery runs the JT and the JT charge the battery back some points below its original starting voltage maintaining a balance indefinitely.
But if you add an LED it does not light.
It does not discharge the battery either.

Can you test it?
If it works as stated.
Can you improve it to work with a pickup coil that uses the same energy used by the original circuit and at the same time lights something?

I know that you have done it. I mean the pickup coil that uses no more energy than the one spent by the original JT and lights something for free.

Thanks in advance and congratulations to all that have had a successful replication of any kind of joule thief from this topic.

Jesus

Jesus

Looks interesting

Do you have a working model ?

I will play with it when I have some time .......hopefully this weekend

Thanks for sharing it

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 28, 2009, 07:10:30 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 28, 2009, 07:49:37 AM
Ac is more complex than just flipping polarity . there are three components to ac . Ac can carry thousands of different Frequencys at one time . The Most Common are one frequency . the sine ,the square and the trapezoid Waveforms. It can be made to Slow down or speed up . Ac can emit electromagnetic radiation in high Volume . Ac Is not By any Means Fully disclosed by Electronics theory. There is Undiscovered properties remaining in Ac that are not yet reviled .The Third Component Is Modulation . and that in it self opened more possibilities for this type of power . their is Fm am UHF Vhf microwave and all these can be mixed or multiplexed on one wave of an ac signal . etc Ac can be modulated to a wide spectrum of the electromagnetic wave band. therefor it is unique and a part of the JT Discovery ..
Gadget

AC is a modulated DC
it can be an amplitude, frequency, modulation and both.
the rate also be modulated and mixing is possible

i don't deny the AC waves complexity. there are infinite possibilities of shapes and rates variations.
but it still is a "tweaked" DC

can you give example of this : ?

QuoteAc Is not By any Means Fully disclosed by Electronics theory.There is Undiscovered properties remaining in Ac that are not yet reviled .

the only things that are "undiscovered" about AC is its interactions with various materials that are not commonly used(read as "have not been tested yet").

Quote from: allcanadian on May 28, 2009, 11:53:07 AM
@theNOPMy intent was to clarify a statement so that the people here may better understand what is happening in their circuits, the only thing I can offer is what is known as "common knowledge" in physics. For instance it is common knowledge that the electric and magnetic fields are the mechanism for energy transfer in a conductor not electrons, the electrons moving are an effect that occurs after the fact it is not a cause of an Alternating Current. If we want to understand Alternating Currents I think we should make an effort to understand "what" it is fundamentally. It is also common knowledge in physic's that the electrons move from the negative pole to the positive pole, this is called "electron notation" which corrects Faraday's mistake in thinking they moved from positive to negative. The negative pole is negative because that is where a majority of the electrons reside and these electrons have a negative charge. As well the "hole" analogy is a myth, there are no "holes" it is a bad analogy which is continually repeated in high school textbooks for the sake of simplicity.
I believe these facts do matter, how can we hope to succeed in understanding the nature of the circuits we build when much of what we have read in outdated textbooks amounts to an "urban legend" in this supposedly modern age.
Regards
AC

i agree with everythings you wrote.
your intent was not misunderstood by me.
i am even happy to read your explanations.

i did not remembered the exact way electrons were moving relative to the polarity, that is why the remark and question mark about the holes.

even if the electrons movement come after the fact, i think it is still usable for the sake of describing that the flow goes from one side to the other then back to the start.

the holes myth came about for 3 reasons.
-guys like me, who were teached with the "holes" stuff, for the sake of simplicity as you said, talking about them without mentioning one basic fact, forgetting that not everyone had the same education.
see below.
-the student not paying attention at a critical moment.
-or an omition of the professor. :(

my prof teached us that the holes were not actually real holes. Duh!

they are "places" where electrons have a pre-disposition to go for start orbiting an other atom.
this is not the real explaination.
it is what i made out of what i was teached about it.

there is a reason for teaching us the holes stuff, the complexity.
a knowledge that is not critical unless you intend to do physic recherches.

thanks for you post, that reminded me my old time.

@all
there are a few other things like that, that are only fully teached to those who take advanced physic classes.
even for an electronic technicien or EE, it is not required to know the exact process that make the electrons move to do a good job at repairing or creating new circuits.

unless doing physic researches, those knowledges are not needed.
it is wrong to say that those knowledges are not available, because they are.
you only have to search for the right things by theirs names.

note that those are theories, not laws.
the direction of the electrons, or, of an electric current are use in multiple laws formulas, but it is rarely needed to know the underlying process of how that direction is established, it is enough to know in whitch direction it goes.

regardless of the direction convention you choose.
it is either the reality or it is its mirror reflexion.
it is a paradox because even if it is a mirror reflextion, it is still the reality.
when you look at yourself in a mirror, is it you or something else ?
there is nothing in the reality that is not also in its mirror reflexion and there is nothing that is in the mirror reflexion that is not also in the reality.
i think that it is the reason why nobody fully rectified Faraday mistake about electrons direction.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 28, 2009, 07:11:55 PM

Quote from: stprue on May 28, 2009, 06:46:49 PM
Jeanna those toroids look similar to the ones Hazens1 is using, did you get them from the same site?

No,
I don't remember who it was that posted it... was it altrez?
http://www.cwsbytemark.com/ (http://www.cwsbytemark.com/)
Their server seems to be down today.( I kept it in my bookmarks for parts and it won't come up). Just save the link for now and look later.

These are more expensive, but the permeability is way less than what the site Hazens posted quotes. u=60 and u=125 Who knows ?

They are a greenish color and are called chokes. I think it is where MK1's toroid may have come from. Or something like it. These cost 35 but the shipping was 12 so $47 all together. I waited to know I couldn't get the cheaper kind from other sources to work as strongly as MK1.

I will let you know. I am sure you know that by now! ;)

@jesus,
I would like to make your circuit mostly because it is so clear, but I don't want to make it if you have not tried it yet.

I am being overly cautious, maybe but I do not want a battery to explode in my face because I am giving it 100 times too much because I am making a little mistake with a diode.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 28, 2009, 07:24:07 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 28, 2009, 07:11:55 PM
No,
I don't remember who it was that posted it... was it altrez?
http://www.cwsbytemark.com/ (http://www.cwsbytemark.com/)
Their server seems to be down today.( I kept it in my bookmarks for parts and it won't come up). Just save the link for now and look later.

These are more expensive, but the permeability is way less than what the site Hazens posted quotes. u=60 and u=125 Who knows ?

They are a greenish color and are called chokes. I think it is where MK1's toroid may have come from. Or something like it. These cost 35 but the shipping was 12 so $47 all together. I waited to know I couldn't get the cheaper kind from other sources to work as strongly as MK1.

I will let you know. I am sure you know that by now! ;)

@jesus,
I would like to make your circuit mostly because it is so clear, but I don't want to make it if you have not tried it yet.

I am being overly cautious, maybe but I do not want a battery to explode in my face because I am giving it 100 times too much because I am making a little mistake with a diode.

jeanna

Yep I posted the link :)

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 28, 2009, 07:25:24 PM

Quote from: stprue on May 28, 2009, 06:31:03 PM
I must have missed the video, what page is it on?

He is running a fan from his earth battery coolness 8)
This oughtta take you there:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.6495 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.6495)
I have 50 posts per page so it was one page ago, but who knows howmany at 10 per page?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 28, 2009, 07:26:14 PM

Quote from: stprue on May 28, 2009, 06:44:56 PM
I must have missed this... what is a LLA1?

My toroid design

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 28, 2009, 07:26:46 PM

Quote from: altrez on May 28, 2009, 07:24:07 PM
Yep I posted the link :)

-Altrez

Oh good,
And, is it some of these that you are using on your fabulous jt?
jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 28, 2009, 07:27:13 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 28, 2009, 07:11:55 PM
No,
I don't remember who it was that posted it... was it altrez?
http://www.cwsbytemark.com/ (http://www.cwsbytemark.com/)
Their server seems to be down today.( I kept it in my bookmarks for parts and it won't come up). Just save the link for now and look later.

These are more expensive, but the permeability is way less than what the site Hazens posted quotes. u=60 and u=125 Who knows ?

They are a greenish color and are called chokes. I think it is where MK1's toroid may have come from. Or something like it. These cost 35 but the shipping was 12 so $47 all together. I waited to know I couldn't get the cheaper kind from other sources to work as strongly as MK1.

I will let you know. I am sure you know that by now! ;)

@jesus,
I would like to make your circuit mostly because it is so clear, but I don't want to make it if you have not tried it yet.

I am being overly cautious, maybe but I do not want a battery to explode in my face because I am giving it 100 times too much because I am making a little mistake with a diode.

jeanna

I do know, and thank you Jeanna. I haven't been posting pics lately because my camera is packed away for my much needed vacation. My latest coil seems good. I keep messing with it and let me tell you trimmers can really help you find the right resistance, I'm getting about 377-380vDC out of it and can power leds galore, neon's, DC motors etc. It's not strong enough for a ccfl but I'm getting there. I have been using supercaps but I want to put them in parrelal and I also want to add a voltage multiplier.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 28, 2009, 07:28:11 PM

Quote from: altrez on May 28, 2009, 07:24:07 PM
Yep I posted the link :)

-Altrez

Thanks for the link!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on May 28, 2009, 07:36:46 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on May 28, 2009, 07:05:31 PM

Jesus

Looks interesting

Do you have a working model ?

I will play with it when I have some time .......hopefully this weekend

Thanks for sharing it

gary

Thank you @resonance man !

Long way we are from the elctrinium topic!!

Quote from: jeanna on May 28, 2009, 07:11:55 PM
@jesus,
I would like to make your circuit mostly because it is so clear, but I don't want to make it if you have not tried it yet.

I am being overly cautious, maybe but I do not want a battery to explode in my face because I am giving it 100 times too much because I am making a little mistake with a diode.

jeanna

Lady @jeanna

I have it working and charging another battery at the same time. Both batteries are very old and does not hold a charge.
I am testing if this circuit repairs this batteries, so they can hold a charge.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 28, 2009, 08:00:56 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on May 28, 2009, 07:36:46 PM
I have it working and charging another battery at the same time. Both batteries are very old and does not hold a charge.
I am testing if this circuit repairs this batteries, so they can hold a charge.

Jesus

Ah thank you, jesus,
I will do this almost exactly first. Then I will switch and make a charger from the secondary until I get one to work.
I only have 2 types of diodes for use. they are
4001 - (I made a full bridge out of these.)
and
4007 -(just got them)

I remember you said once before any in the 4000 range will work. I hope that applies to this as well.

I am glad you posted today. I was wondering how you are? You are here. So, good.

L jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 28, 2009, 08:35:48 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 28, 2009, 07:26:46 PM
Oh good,
And, is it some of these that you are using on your fabulous jt?
jeanna

Yep :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 28, 2009, 08:50:46 PM

@all

It looks like we have at least 4 people now who have built self chargers :) This is so great and you know its just the start. I am working on my LLA1 and it should cost less then 250 in parts :) If you can picture a massive toroid in the center with the JT circuit in the center of it in a shield that part is extremely important. 6 coils coming off and a toroid on each of those with 4 coils coming off each one 24 connections.

All in a circular formation with 4 focus beam points on the out side all pointing at the center. More on the beam to come later. Lets just say I got the idea from TheNOP Thanks! you seem to be right RF is the key! :)

Hard to explain! Oh and now I am running a second config to make sure I could get the same results. I will post my progress!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 28, 2009, 09:04:11 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 27, 2009, 09:56:56 PM
Not for a second . SOme Bedinies are ou / like mine ;) Have you checked out My video on a hard drive bedini with a piggy back coil . Well first this Bedini Bi coil puts out enuff amps to light a 130 volts incandescent lamp continuously and this type of current has fried many Sla Battery already . It uses a cap to make the amps from the BEMF . Simple . This However Makes a wet Cell battery 10 time more efficient without the heat of a hard charger using one diode and a cap you still get a pulsing from the output . a bridge and a cap no . Its Filtered good and converts all the pulses to dc amps There is probably still a trace of a induced pulse from the components being so close to the coil however .The Piggyback coil alone keeps the Primary battery hot at all times . It Is a wet Cell battery . The Piggy back current it over 80 milliamps . the Bedini only takes less than 20 ma to run . I am Proud of it and i dont even care if anyone believes it or not . All i care about is its OU to me and i Charge every battery i have with it for free . even non rechargeable . 40 or 50 times before they rupture and leak .

Aaltrez . your friend does not know what we are doing . you cannot light up 100-400 leds with a dc to dc converted running on one volt . I think not . you need the ac we are getting from the BEMF . that's the key to our energy . We are capturing the OFF voltage . thus the reverse dc pulse make it look like ac. The Charge you are getting is Real if it was dead to begin with and thus you are recharging it and using it by swapping it so its a real charge . Other wise if you only had one battery and ran just lights . when its dead its dead . now to have a way to capture the wasted voltage and store it . I'm an Electronics technician and for 30 years have been repairing everything down to the component level and i know first hand when i build My first bedini that the whole story was never taught .They teach you that when you put x amount of ac in a transformer that has say two secondaries that it splits the current between the two but they dont tell you you can harness the heat and make electricity from that with a pelteir module or that you can capture the Rf Field with other coils and germanium diodes and get power from that . or the fact . Just a few things i had to learn on my own . The Charge on My E-lights is real . I took a 3 battery system and turned it into a one battery system and it still does what it was intended to do ,Longer light now and PLUS it recharges another battery so you will always have a battery hot . I can tell you i have ran my design over 2 weeks flipping and she still lights up all night . , This is not Normal Electronics operations . This is something else not on the market for a good reason . It would upset the economy to have everything power itself so they say . I don;'t care about the Economy . I care about having free energy and keeping the money in My pocket for food not stinking oil and Nuclear power plant Misers . If i build it and i see it does something nothing else will then i have accomplished a bi of that and did not hurt any one and in fact saved money from buying two more batteries .;)

@ I have said it before the Jt is an RF source , a transmitter also rather than a transformer alone and you can light up neons and tubes and leds with 1/100 the specified power that was required to light these devices with RF a form of ac .

Gadget

Gadget

I have not seen the video of your bedini .......or any of the other videos here lately

I have to make do with a very slow connection right now .
It is so slow that this site usually times out once or twice before I get a page to load .
Videos are out of the question .

I do know that I am missing alot because I can't watch the videos .
That is just the way it is .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 28, 2009, 09:22:47 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on May 28, 2009, 07:36:46 PM
Thank you @resonance man !

Long way we are from the elctrinium topic!!

Lady @jeanna

I have it working and charging another battery at the same time. Both batteries are very old and does not hold a charge.
I am testing if this circuit repairs this batteries, so they can hold a charge.

Jesus

Jeasus

What kind of batterys are they?

I have had good luck reconditioning a sealed lead acid battery from a UPS
It has sat for at least 3 years ......its voltage was down to 4 V
I trickel charged it with just a cap (1uF ) and bridge
It took a couple of weeks but it seems to be like new again .

I am currently trying a Ni Cad for my drilll It doesn't seem to be helping it any .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 28, 2009, 09:25:57 PM

@all

I have just went past my starting voltage from Monday!!! And the source battery is not losing charge in fact it has went up 5 mVs. I have also been charging a cap and it has went up to 4 volts!

This all started happening when I hit the right frequency on my setup and thanks to jeanna who showed me how to check that seems to be 200kH.

So it should be extremely easy for anyone to reproduce my results. And that is my goal in this. I want to make it so easy that someone with no knowledge of electronics can make it work with parts that can be found just about anywhere.

If we keep pushing we can do some wonderful things.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 28, 2009, 09:26:44 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on May 28, 2009, 07:10:30 PM
AC is a modulated DC
it can be an amplitude, frequency, modulation and both.
the rate also be modulated and mixing is possible

i don't deny the AC waves complexity. there are infinite possibilities of shapes and rates variations.
but it still is a "tweaked" DC

can you give example of this : ?
the only things that are "undiscovered" about AC is its interactions with various materials that are not commonly used(read as "have not been tested yet").

i agree with everythings you wrote.
your intent was not misunderstood by me.
i am even happy to read your explanations.

i did not remembered the exact way electrons were moving relative to the polarity, that is why the remark and question mark about the holes.

even if the electrons movement come after the fact, i think it is still usable for the sake of describing that the flow goes from one side to the other then back to the start.

the holes myth came about for 3 reasons.
-guys like me, who were teached with the "holes" stuff, for the sake of simplicity as you said, talking about them without mentioning one basic fact, forgetting that not everyone had the same education.
see below.
-the student not paying attention at a critical moment.
-or an omition of the professor. :(

my prof teached us that the holes were not actually real holes. Duh!

they are "places" where electrons have a pre-disposition to go for start orbiting an other atom.
this is not the real explaination.
it is what i made out of what i was teached about it.

there is a reason for teaching us the holes stuff, the complexity.
a knowledge that is not critical unless you intend to do physic recherches.

thanks for you post, that reminded me my old time.

@all
there are a few other things like that, that are only fully teached to those who take advanced physic classes.
even for an electronic technicien or EE, it is not required to know the exact process that make the electrons move to do a good job at repairing or creating new circuits.

unless doing physic researches, those knowledges are not needed.
it is wrong to say that those knowledges are not available, because they are.
you only have to search for the right things by theirs names.

note that those are theories, not laws.
the direction of the electrons, or, of an electric current are use in multiple laws formulas, but it is rarely needed to know the underlying process of how that direction is established, it is enough to know in whitch direction it goes.

regardless of the direction convention you choose.
it is either the reality or it is its mirror reflexion.
it is a paradox because even if it is a mirror reflextion, it is still the reality.
when you look at yourself in a mirror, is it you or something else ?
there is nothing in the reality that is not also in its mirror reflexion and there is nothing that is in the mirror reflexion that is not also in the reality.
i think that it is the reason why nobody fully rectified Faraday mistake about electrons direction.

Yea i can give you an example of it . the TPU . mix more than two ac signals and what do you get . What if you mix 5 or 10 . Undiscovered .Anyways . take care . You seem to know it all .

Gadget .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 28, 2009, 09:29:44 PM

Quote from: altrez on May 28, 2009, 08:50:46 PM
@all

It looks like we have at least 4 people now who have built self chargers :) This is so great and you know its just the start. I am working on my LLA1 and it should cost less then 250 in parts :) If you can picture a massive toroid in the center with the JT circuit in the center of it in a shield that part is extremely important. 6 coils coming off and a toroid on each of those with 4 coils coming off each one 24 connections.
Quote from: altrez on May 28, 2009, 08:50:46 PM

test

All in a circular formation with 4 focus beam points on the out side all pointing at the center. More on the beam to come later. Lets just say I got the idea from TheNOP Thanks! you seem to be right RF is the key! :)
Quote from: altrez on May 28, 2009, 08:50:46 PM

test

Hard to explain! Oh and now I am running a second config to make sure I could get the same results. I will post my progress!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 28, 2009, 09:41:20 PM

@ all @ Jeanna

Ok I get it thanks for the help!

@ Pirate
sorry for wasting space please feel free for deleting my test posts!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 28, 2009, 09:48:50 PM

so if a tesla bifiliar coil is used as a pickup it converts to amps its like a self made step up/down transformer. no it will not work without a primary and secondary. if its used to put voltage in then it steps up the voltage. since the coil on the base of the transistor needs amperage to open the gate we can make that a a small bifiliar and with the large bifilar connected to the collector it will dump a high voltage. if you make your third winding a regular winding and have it dump into a secondary torriod as a step up in a bifiliar then have a pickup of a regular coil you should get the highest voltage potential possible with the given current.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 28, 2009, 09:50:49 PM

@stprue,

Thankyou, I have been wanting to do this for a long time, but I had to wait for my supercap.

Quote from: stprue on May 28, 2009, 10:39:44 AM
Nice work I knew it could be done. ;D

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 28, 2009, 10:03:00 PM

@IST,
Arrrrhhh the feeling lol, yes, I might take a look at Mr Walton and Mr Crockcroft he he. ;)

Quote from: innovation_station on May 28, 2009, 11:11:36 AM
@ JIM

YOU BET YA!!! ;)

GREAT WORK BRO 8)

I HAVE HAD GREAT RESULTS USEING THOSE SAME DIODES ... HIGH VOLTAGE HIGH FREQ!!

NOW

WHERE YOU WANT TO GO ... :)

CHECK OUT HOW A CASCADE WORKS ... :)

LETS SAY WE HAVE 5 DIODES AND 5 CAPS ... SO IF EACH CAP WAS 1000VDC ... YOU WILL END UP WITH 5 KV...

WITH DIODES INBETWEEN ... LOL ;) ;) ;)

WHAT WILL BE ?!?!?!?! O YES I DO KNOW DAMM WELL

LOL

OK THEN WE GOT US A SPARK GAP LIKE A STUN GUN .... LOL

RIGHT BUT AS A SPARK GAP WORKS ON DISTANCE SO DOES THIS ...

TRICK IS THE BLOCKING DIODE ... SO WE DONT LOOSE OUR RESEVRE ...

WHEN THE 5KV CAPS ARE FULL THE SPARK WILL JUMP AND DUMP TO THE COIL .. BUT THE CONSERVED POWER WILL REMAIN ...
LOL

YOU WILL ONLY DROP 500 V THERE BOUTS .. AND YOU GOT ALL THAT 4500VDC PUSH POWER YOU ONLY TOP IT UP... TO DO IT ALL AGIN ....

NOW TO RECTIFY IT ... AND MAKE IT USEFUL ..

THIS IS SOOOOOOOOO TESLA LOL

IM NOT SURE MANY KNOW BOUT THIS ...

IST!

Yep, now I need to get a handful of supercaps, charge them in turn and connect them in series and BINGO, I got more Free Energy from the Earth Battery. ;D
I will need a High Voltage switch transister, or just mabe a simple mechanical pulse relay to switch contacts from Parallel to series, hmmmmm.

I could get a 2 hour run outa them, but it would take a week to charge this setup.

I need to upgrade from Copper rods and Aluminium electrodes to Magnesium and Carbon ones just like my friend Bill (Pirate88179) has done, then it will accellerate the recharge process.

Nice poetry ist, I see you have a mallable heart. :D

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 28, 2009, 10:07:38 PM

Quote from: electricme on May 28, 2009, 12:40:17 AM
@Resonanceman
I think I have a couple of solutions to increase output.

I have been working on a series parallel circuit to beef up the output of the JT in current only.
My theory is, the JT output streem can be presented to as many secondary (separately wound) toroid's as you would want to put into the circuit.
By paralleling the outputs you double up the current available from each toroid.
For example only, if 1 secondary after rectification is a .5amp, then having 10 separate secondaries
wound on 10 separate toroid's will give a total of 5Amps.

The primaries are "all" connected in "series" the output secondaries be rectified with full wave bridges, all these bridges + & - outputs be coupled in Parallel.

Another way would be to have a JT output presented to all the primaries in parallel, then make an identical second stage as I described in the above sentence.

Yes there will be losses, as in any system, but I hope to minimise that.
I have presented the following jpgs before.

jim

Jim

Yes what I am doing is almost eaxactly like your drawing
The biggest difference is you drew it with normall coils I am using my LM JT coils ....... although I wire them up ignoring the 2 leads that are connected ..........so in effect it puts the JT primary wires in series

One of my plans is to start with a standard secondary ..... a full spool of red radio shack wire ........ then I am going to add a primary and tune it this time .......so far I have used the coils that I have already made up for other things .
I am thinking of tuning my JT for low power ......then tune the other coil for max power .

The Jesus mod to the JT is another thing I want to try soon ....... it seems to me that it will be much easier to get a good output from my circuit if the JT is self powering .......or close to it .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 28, 2009, 10:10:20 PM

@ Altrez,

Quote from: altrez on May 28, 2009, 11:37:19 AM
Nice work JIM!!! I need to time how long I can run one for. Been very busy will other things.

-Altrez

Thankyou Al, it's very appreceiated

I saw your "empty voltage" photos, very nice indeed, have you presented the "empty evidence" to your friend who is coming to your place yet? will this be a surprise for him!!

jim

@Gadget,
Ha ha, I love your dinner tray, did you get a tummy ake later on?
I'll order the same lol.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 28, 2009, 10:45:18 PM

@Jeanna,
Thankyou very mouch. :D

Quote from: jeanna on May 28, 2009, 03:49:16 PM
@Jim,
That video tells the story. Great!
How many volts does your meter see from your EB?
jeanna

Since I made the video, I put the cap back on EB charge, it's had just over 13hours now.
I just put my DMM across the EB cap and it shows 271.3mV or just over a 1/4 of a volt. :)

This has given me a huge lift in confidance, now I have achieved something positave, and it wont be long before I should be able to get more out of this very simple setup, but it needs vast improvements before any really usable power is avaliable.

Thanks again Jeanna.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 28, 2009, 10:51:49 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 28, 2009, 09:26:44 PM
Yea i can give you an example of it . the TPU . mix more than two ac signals and what do you get .
What if you mix 5 or 10 . Undiscovered .

more then 2, humm.
motors, tv set, cable tv, radio waves(including tv broadcast), telephony systems, are just a few i can think of right now.

5 or 10 would still fit motors, tv cable distributions systems, telephony systems and radio waves.
how many channel does your tv can pickup ?
how many radio stations ?
how many frequencies do you think a single radio wave frequency can transport ?

anticipating what you might say about the undiscovered effects of some specific mixes.
how many frequencies are naturaly occuring on earth alone, including thiers harmonics ?
what about those from the sun, the galaxy ?

for me it is clear that mixing frequencies, alone, can't create energy that was not existant in the first place.
it might use existant energy under some specific cases tho.

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 28, 2009, 09:26:44 PM
Anyways . take care . You seem to know it all .

i might seem to know it all to you, but i am not and i am the first to be sorry about that fact.

@Resonanceman
i apologize.

i was forgetting that everyone is perciving the world is own way, base on his education and his environment.
i got upset by what you worte more then i should had.

@jeanna
i often mis-interpret what you are saying at first.
and notice later that i was saying essencialy the same thing as you after a few posts have passed by.

language barrier ? the way you are expressing yourself ?
i don't know but i want to apologies to you too.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 28, 2009, 11:05:22 PM

@stprue
Thankyou for asking.

Quote from: stprue on May 28, 2009, 06:31:03 PM
I must have missed the video, what page is it on?

Its about 10 - 12 pages back.
About a year ago, Jeanna very kindly made me an icon which I post when I make these tiny videos.
(thank you again Jeanna)

The ICON is pinkish in colour, and about 3/4" x 1" square.
It sits just above 2 tiny paperclips at the bottom of the post.
It looks like the one at the end of this post.

Dont click on the ICON as it is only a dummy flag to make you aware the video is there.

Then after watching the video, which is about 12 seconds long, go to the post ABOVE, there is another video I posted, but because of the limitations (file wise) I had to leave the icon out.

hope this helps

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 28, 2009, 11:18:02 PM

Well I have had a rash of toroids that do absolutely nothing. I can get them to work sometimes but this is too much. I spent way too much on these chokes to have them refuse to turn the transistor on.
@All... help!!!

@Altrez HELP!!!!

I bought 2 small ones of this u=60 and u=125 because they are the same outer dimension as the filter I like so much. I wanted to compare things with the same size and number of turns.

I started with 5 of each for the bifilar primary and this won't even turn on the light. the transistor gets hot and nothing happens.

It means to me there is no turn-on of the transistor but why would that be?
The biggo did the very same thing.

My question to you is how many turns do you use on your primary. Have you found that it takes more than the others you have used?

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 28, 2009, 11:26:23 PM

@Jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on May 28, 2009, 08:00:56 PM
I only have 2 types of diodes for use. they are
4001 - (I made a full bridge out of these.)
and 4007 -(just got them)

L jeanna

Here is some info for you and I'm sure the others here will be interrested and jot this down.

I bought 100 x 1N5408 diodes, from Jaycar cat number ZR1017. (came in a plastic bag)
These are rated at 1Kv at 3Amps, it cost me $16.95 australian, so they should be about $8 USA.

EDIT I should have included these are the same type as the 1N4004 x 1kv diodes which are rated as 1Amp, if you put 3 1N4004's in parallel, you get a 1N5408.

I want these later on when we manage to get further along the track when our EB or JT are putting out grunt.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 28, 2009, 11:43:37 PM

@All

Problems with slow connections and Videos
Gary I know exactly where you are coming from, I still have slow dialup.

Quote from: resonanceman on May 28, 2009, 09:04:11 PM
Gadget
I have not seen the video of your bedini .......or any of the other videos here lately

I have to make do with a very slow connection right now .
It is so slow that this site usually times out once or twice before I get a page to load .
Videos are out of the question .

I do know that I am missing alot because I can't watch the videos .
That is just the way it is .

gary

Gary, to make my part more enjoyable here I make a small videos with my mobile phone, I put it to the smallest 640x??? image it can go, then make a video, but I have to stop recording the file when it size gets to about 240kb. So 12seconds is my limit.
This is because Stefan has only alowed 250 Kb as an image file Max size.
To post the video file, I click on the Browse button, tell it to go fetch and click on the post button.

I also find it difficult to download these big video files from YouTube, so this was my way to help those who have slow download speeds.

Hope this helped you

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 28, 2009, 11:59:53 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on May 28, 2009, 09:04:11 PM
Gadget

I have not seen the video of your bedini .......or any of the other videos here lately

I have to make do with a very slow connection right now .
It is so slow that this site usually times out once or twice before I get a page to load .
Videos are out of the question .

I do know that I am missing alot because I can't watch the videos .
That is just the way it is .

gary

Gary i have Dial up also . It sucks . BUT one thinkg i do have is a Moto q Cell phone with unlimited web on it . I simply bluetooth it to the big computer and have high speed that way without all the extra cost . Its only 10 dollars extra for unlimited web access on my carrier . I use the cell phone for high speed dialup . Its better . you got a bluetooth phone . all you need is unlimited web and 20 dollar bluetooth dongle for your computer . and a little bit of hacking ;) I love the old moto q . there is every application out there for free . It runs windows mobil and has internet explorer and opera browsers . email Tv radio video camera . all the messengers like yahoo chat and voice . It does everything . I did buy a few programs and i recommend a program called kinoma . . has tv and radio and audio books and lots of media including youtube ,orb and about 15 other services all rolled up into one nice app . It nice to watch The Invaders while your waiting at the doctors office or just doing nothing . . or better yet log on the forum or watch youtube
@NOp i don't get free energy from My Tv or phone line . I thought this is conversation was about undiscovered uses for ac to produce power . Yes ? not a known multiplexing and known radio or microwave signal. what happens when you mix several signals on a tpu ? I'll tell ya . It frys your TV and your phone! Why ? HOW ? This is what i'm talking about that they don't teach you , you have to do it outside the Box and learn it . I hope i never know it all . I love learning about the Unknown and there is plenty left .
Gadget .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 29, 2009, 12:24:02 AM

I had dial-up for years and years. I finally found that I could get DSL (the slowest speed) for $10/month and I was paying $12/month for dial-up!!!!!!! I got it and, watched a bunch of videos on youtube and learned a little bit. I can now download at 950 kpbs!!!!!!! This is faster than a friend of mine's DSL and he is paying for high speed at $50/month. I run speed tests every now and then and it is still doing well. if I ever had to go back to dial-up, i would probably throw my computer out of the window.

Great info Gadget!!! It just proves, where there is a will, there is a way.

Bill PS I am not doing anything illegal, I only tweaked some things on my computer and browser to allow them to work together better.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 29, 2009, 12:25:42 AM

OK here is what helps.

Now I understand those among us who seem to always have the 104k cap in parallel to the base resistor.

I wound another primary and got the BJTL to go on with
4TB,11TC,(I have a temporary pickup of 10 turns.)

So, the toroid needs 4T,11T to turn on the led and have it be bright enough. I started to remove some of the 11T from the collector coil and the amps draw started up and the light got dimmer. egads! I started with 11T of each and went down; maybe I should add more than 11 to the collector coil.

The 10T pickup is producing 2.12V but ONLY if I have the 104k cap parallel to the base resistor and the light is in there.
If I pull out the BJTLed, the volts off the secondary go DOWN to 1.8v !!

The frequency is 1.4MHz

I guess I got my high frequency. ;)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on May 29, 2009, 12:46:36 AM

@all

What makes my compass needle move , and show north and south?

That would be a nice thing to tap into !

@nop

Multi signal yes but single freq tuner ! i guess you need 3 to have some fun , maybe 3 diode radio but they would need to be tune to a something better then radio stations .

@all

On the EB subject , in many EB patent on thing is clear if you but it on a core and coil like a primary you will get transformer effect , the voltage will go up !

Don't take my word on this search it !

Ok well done every one ! so what will be next a cfl self charging aa pack !

I know it can be done with a dummy toroid !

@jeanna

High flux , but permeability ?

You should try to find more about them , are they better at some freq .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 29, 2009, 12:48:10 AM

I guess everyone went to sleep?
I added 2 more turns to the collector coil of the primary and the light brightened a bit.
The amps draw dropped to 12.5mA
The 104cap is still necessary
the BJTL is still necessary.
The frequency is still 1.4MHz

This is the u=60

I have an identical toroid with u=125

I will make these identical turns in the morning and compare. Then I will make a pickup of some size. I don't have as much room as if I didn't need all those turns. I better use the newbie wire since it is easier to get really close.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 29, 2009, 12:51:35 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on May 29, 2009, 12:46:36 AM

@jeanna

High flux , but permeability ?

You should try to find more about them , are they better at some freq .

Mark

I thought hi flux WAS low permeability.
The permeability is really low u=60 and u=125 are mostly not on people's charts. So, I do not know.

Are there any marks on your green one?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 29, 2009, 12:53:35 AM

@ jeanna

What size toroid are you using? From your results I would guess you need at least 20 turns for collector coil. To light a CFL you are going to want the collector coil to produce at least 40 volts. The pickup coil should then be at least 10 times more turns than collector coil to get 400 volts on the pickup coil.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on May 29, 2009, 12:53:41 AM

@jeanna

http://www.2622736.com/ch229.htm

i have found on this page the specs some have a 26 on perm.

Edit i also found that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permeability_(electromagnetism)

nice things to know !

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 29, 2009, 01:06:58 AM

Quote from: xee2 on May 29, 2009, 12:53:35 AM
@ jeanna

What size toroid are you using? From your results I would guess you need at least 20 turns for collector coil. To light a CFL you are going to want the collector coil to produce at least 40 volts. The pickup coil should then be 10 times more turns than collector coil to get 400 volts on the pickup coil.

This is about 3/4 inch outer diam like the 'filter', but the inner diam is a little bigger than the "filter". The filter does really well as a joule thief with 3T,4T as I have been describing this lately. This is the one I tried to match to get some comparison with these new high flux guys.

The frequency is incredibly high 1.4MHz. I have room to raise the voltage and still have a high frequency-- if I have room for the turns.

Now, are you making multiple layer on your pickups?

Does the effect of adding more turns diminish with more layers?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 29, 2009, 01:11:38 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on May 29, 2009, 12:53:41 AM
@jeanna

http://www.2622736.com/ch229.htm

i have found on this page the specs some have a 26 on perm.

Edit...
nice things to know !

Mark

Yes, well I don't get the overview from any of the information on the internet regarding flux and perm. I see a lot of math details, but the details don't tell me much. I need a broad overview so I can make my way through it.

cws has a lot of information about these toroids in the form of scanned manuals as pdfs. I have some of those pages here.

In fact these toroids from the link are the very ones I have. I have the 2 that are 60 and 125 permeability.
CH229060, CH229125
And then I got some others. In the pic these are the eyes. they are small.

thanks

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 29, 2009, 02:44:48 AM

A little off-topic but, I just ordered 20 of the 1" glowing tiles. I got to thinking......(dangerous) if these are really as bright as reported (I got the aqua blue) and last as long as reported, one could make a 1 foot x 1 foot square for about $72.00. (144 x $.50) if this made a lot of light, can you imagine an entire wall of these in a room that gets daylight (direct sunlight) during the day and what that room would look like at night?

My beer keg is almost empty. (Buuuuuurrrpp!) Soon, I will have to get the schematic from Wilby and try to replicate the ccfl keg light.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 29, 2009, 05:21:50 AM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on May 29, 2009, 01:06:58 AM
Now, are you making multiple layer on your pickups?

Does the effect of adding more turns diminish with more layers?

Yes, I use multi layer coils. Added layers are about the same as original. I thought maybe you were working on your large toroid. I find it hard to get a lot of turns on small toroids.

Increasing permeability increases inductance per turn. Thus it takes fewer turns with high permeability to equal the number of turns in a low permeability coil. In general it is best to have high permeability but also in general the higher the permeability is the lower the frequency must be. Also in general the losses in the coil are higher as permeability increases.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on May 29, 2009, 08:59:19 AM

Quote from: jeanna on May 28, 2009, 08:00:56 PM
Ah thank you, jesus,
I will do this almost exactly first. Then I will switch and make a charger from the secondary until I get one to work.
I only have 2 types of diodes for use. they are
4001 - (I made a full bridge out of these.)
and
4007 -(just got them)

I remember you said once before any in the 4000 range will work. I hope that applies to this as well.

I am glad you posted today. I was wondering how you are? You are here. So, good.

L jeanna

The diodes 4000 series spend more energy than the 4148 kind. It will be good to know your results.

Quote from: resonanceman on May 28, 2009, 09:22:47 PM
Jesus

What kind of batterys are they?

I have had good luck reconditioning a sealed lead acid battery from a UPS
It has sat for at least 3 years ......its voltage was down to 4 V
I trickel charged it with just a cap (1uF ) and bridge
It took a couple of weeks but it seems to be like new again .

I am currently trying a Ni Cad for my drilll It doesn't seem to be helping it any .

gary

My batteries are AA 1.5v Alkaline. Non rechargeable.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 29, 2009, 09:13:16 AM

Quote from: jeanna on May 28, 2009, 11:18:02 PM
Well I have had a rash of toroids that do absolutely nothing. I can get them to work sometimes but this is too much. I spent way too much on these chokes to have them refuse to turn the transistor on.
@All... help!!!

@Altrez HELP!!!!

I bought 2 small ones of this u=60 and u=125 because they are the same outer dimension as the filter I like so much. I wanted to compare things with the same size and number of turns.

I started with 5 of each for the bifilar primary and this won't even turn on the light. the transistor gets hot and nothing happens.

It means to me there is no turn-on of the transistor but why would that be?
The biggo did the very same thing.

My question to you is how many turns do you use on your primary. Have you found that it takes more than the others you have used?

thanks,

jeanna

Hey! It takes more turns on the big ones try a 12/12 and work back from there. PLEASE let me know if you have any more problems.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 29, 2009, 09:35:06 AM

Quote from: jeanna on May 29, 2009, 12:25:42 AM
OK here is what helps.

Now I understand those among us who seem to always have the 104k cap in parallel to the base resistor.

I wound another primary and got the BJTL to go on with
4TB,11TC,(I have a temporary pickup of 10 turns.)

So, the toroid needs 4T,11T to turn on the led and have it be bright enough. I started to remove some of the 11T from the collector coil and the amps draw started up and the light got dimmer. egads! I started with 11T of each and went down; maybe I should add more than 11 to the collector coil.

The 10T pickup is producing 2.12V but ONLY if I have the 104k cap parallel to the base resistor and the light is in there.
If I pull out the BJTLed, the volts off the secondary go DOWN to 1.8v !!

The frequency is 1.4MHz

I guess I got my high frequency. ;)

jeanna

Hey :) Did you test with the scope on the pickup coil to get that reading? of 1.4MHz? I have been seeing the same thing on my large Toroids. Yes you need a 12/12 to get started with.

I am having some trouble understanding how to add the cap to the JT. When I don't have it I spike to 400v when I do its less then 10 v? Where and how should the cap be placed?

Thanks :)

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 29, 2009, 10:31:33 AM

Quote from: electricme on May 28, 2009, 11:43:37 PM
@All

Problems with slow connections and Videos
Gary I know exactly where you are coming from, I still have slow dialup.

Gary, to make my part more enjoyable here I make a small videos with my mobile phone, I put it to the smallest 640x??? image it can go, then make a video, but I have to stop recording the file when it size gets to about 240kb. So 12seconds is my limit.
This is because Stefan has only alowed 250 Kb as an image file Max size.
To post the video file, I click on the Browse button, tell it to go fetch and click on the post button.

I also find it difficult to download these big video files from YouTube, so this was my way to help those who have slow download speeds.

Hope this helped you

jim

Jim

You must be talking about those teeny weeny videos
I have seen them but never got one to play .

Does it require a special player ?

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 29, 2009, 10:38:32 AM

Quote from: xee2 on May 29, 2009, 05:21:50 AM
Yes, I use multi layer coils. Added layers are about the same as original. I thought maybe you were working on your large toroid. I find it hard to get a lot of turns on small toroids.

Increasing permeability increases inductance per turn. Thus it takes fewer turns with high permeability to equal the number of turns in a low permeability coil. In general it is best to have high permeability but also in general the higher the permeability is the lower the frequency must be. Also in general the losses in the coil are higher as permeability increases.

Oh thank you xee2,
That is exactly what I needed for the conceptual to get me started.
thank you
thank you

Also, I am glad to know you use more than single layer.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on May 29, 2009, 10:39:04 AM

@all

There has been one successful replication and one not successful replication of the joule thief self charger.

This is the successful one.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6362.msg183456#msg183456

Edit:
The photo is not from @wilbyinebriated replication.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 29, 2009, 10:58:00 AM

@Bill,
Actually they are that bright but not for very long. They are bright enough to see them for a really long time, but mine only seem to 'give out' light enough to read by for about 10-30 minutes. Still, remarkable.
I think once charged to a high level, they recharge much more easily, also.

I emailed curtisium and asked about the acrylic sheet that is mentioned on the website.

He doesn't have anyone that distributes it. But he does have someone in Boston who is making a business selling religious items who may distribute.

Or, maybe we and the group around here can make a large purchase.
The price of the sheet is I think I remember right 70-100 for 1 M² but the freight coming from Turkey is a lot. So, one order in one container that can be distributed later would be a way to do it.
One M² is 39" x 39" = 1521 square inches so even at 50 cents the glass tiles are a lot more than the acrylic sheet per square inch.

I will post my pic of mine in a tray after the first day in the sun, but the camera cannot take the picture right. My guess is the type of light coming out. It may be filtered by the camera? (phosphors etc.)

I will add a pic. (all 3 colors)

@Jesus,
I will let you know. I am busy and I need to set this up separately, but I will let you and everyone know.

@Altrez. OK 12 , 12 but this is not big. Maybe it is not the big part but as xee explained the high flux part. I am now thinking the cheap one I got from allelectronics -"biggo"- will work for folks. At least it had the same symptoms. Nothing until I got a greater number of turns on the primary, and super high frequency.

I will go into more detail with you about the scope in a few minutes. First the promised pic.
jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 29, 2009, 10:58:24 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 28, 2009, 11:59:53 PM
Gary i have Dial up also . It sucks . BUT one thinkg i do have is a Moto q Cell phone with unlimited web on it . I simply bluetooth it to the big computer and have high speed that way without all the extra cost . Its only 10 dollars extra for unlimited web access on my carrier . I use the cell phone for high speed dialup . Its better . you got a bluetooth phone . all you need is unlimited web and 20 dollar bluetooth dongle for your computer . and a little bit of hacking ;) I love the old moto q . there is every application out there for free . It runs windows mobil and has internet explorer and opera browsers . email Tv radio video camera . all the messengers like yahoo chat and voice . It does everything . I did buy a few programs and i recommend a program called kinoma . . has tv and radio and audio books and lots of media including youtube ,orb and about 15 other services all rolled up into one nice app . It nice to watch The Invaders while your waiting at the doctors office or just doing nothing . . or better yet log on the forum or watch youtube

Gadget

Right now I only have T-Mobile for internet .
The problem is where I use my computer now I am in an area with very poor reception ...... It worked much better when I had a better signal .
T-Mobile is upgrading their system They have a new USB reciever that replaces what I am using now ...... PCMCIA wireless card ,

Unfortunatly my income is very limited right now .......and looks like it is going to get worse before it gets better . SO I pretty much have to stay with what I have .

If things get a little better I will probably get a different computer and upgrade to a the new T- mobile system or a different carrier .

I am using a notebook .......In theory I could take it out and find a hot spot ......but this thing is on its last leg
The battery is shot .... The fan is really noisy and the hinges are broke .
I could fix these problems ..........but it would cost me about as much as a mini notebook I have been looking at .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 29, 2009, 11:06:11 AM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on May 29, 2009, 08:59:19 AM

My batteries are AA 1.5v Alkaline. Non rechargeable.

Jesus

Jesus

I hope that it works :)

I have heard that the big difference between rechargable and non rechargeable alkaline batterys is that the rechargeable have better seals

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on May 29, 2009, 11:13:32 AM

Quote from: jeanna on May 29, 2009, 10:58:00 AM
...
@Jesus,
I will let you know. I am busy and I need to set this up separately, but I will let you and everyone know.
...
jeanna

Quote from: resonanceman on May 29, 2009, 11:06:11 AM
Jesus

I hope that it works :)

I have heard that the big difference between rechargable and non rechargeable alkaline batterys is that the rechargeable have better seals

gary

Thank you Lady @jeanna
Thank you @resonanceman

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 29, 2009, 11:32:14 AM

Quote from: resonanceman on May 29, 2009, 10:31:33 AM

Jim

You must be talking about those teeny weeny videos
I have seen them but never got one to play .

Does it require a special player ?

gary

Gary Quicktime plays them

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 29, 2009, 11:38:36 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 29, 2009, 02:44:48 AM
A little off-topic but, I just ordered 20 of the 1" glowing tiles. I got to thinking......(dangerous) if these are really as bright as reported (I got the aqua blue) and last as long as reported, one could make a 1 foot x 1 foot square for about $72.00. (144 x $.50) if this made a lot of light, can you imagine an entire wall of these in a room that gets daylight (direct sunlight) during the day and what that room would look like at night?

I have been thinking of ordering some of those tiles

I bought a UV LED light a whille back
http://www.besthongkong.com/product_info.php?products_id=128
I don't think the driver for this light is very robust .
I was running 2 of the white versions and ended up powering them with 15 V rather than 12 . they both stopped working.
I opened them up and the wires going to the chip had disconnected on both of them . A minute with a soldering iron and they were both OK

Rather than use their chip I think I would take it apart and just use the LED array .
From my experience stuff that glows usually lights up better with UV than white light
I would love to see how a UV JT would work with them

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 29, 2009, 11:42:25 AM

Quote from: altrez on May 29, 2009, 09:35:06 AM
Did you test with the scope on the pickup coil to get that reading?

Yes, in fact I always check on the pickup for the frequency but I often forget to mention that. So, thanks for helping me clarify this.

Quoteof 1.4MHz?

Yes, well as I mentioned last night, I have had a rash of the same thing happening (quantum effect to be sure!!) I bet the 3055 needs more turns to get it to start too, since that has been the cure for all the toroids that didn't start.
They all, no matter what size, needed more turns and once they started they had incredibly high frequency.
The scope is only guessing at some point above 1 or 2 MHz I can't remember which. It will guess as high as 5.6MHz - I saw that yesterday!.

When it says NORM instead of RUN it is guessing.

I even got 2.4MHz from my EB for the last 2 days.

Last year Ian Middleton (an EE) told me he suspected the stubblefield generator was oscillating at a frequency higher than 4 or 5 MHz. (In fact, since I was working just on that, I put off buying the scope since it wasn't able to go that fast. ) I am glad to find the earth by itself is lower so I can read it.

QuoteI am having some trouble understanding how to add the cap to the JT. When I don't have it I spike to 400v when I do its less then 10 v? Where and how should the cap be placed?

Yes, I have had a lot of this too.
I think some of that happens when the size of the cap is wrong.
There are many ways to use caps.

I posted Tesla's explanation with the tank metaphor because it sooo clearly described what HE was doing with the caps/condensers.
Bill Beaty on amasci.com has a really wonderful description of the cap and what it does.
I only remember what I understood of it a few years ago. I am reminded to read it again.

Xee2 has been studying the cap effect on the different primary coils of the jt and xee2 does not have a scope, so I did a little study to help out. I learned quite a bit as well... ;).

If you put the legs of a ceramic (non electrolytic) cap at the same place (so parallel) as the base resistor you will get a certain effect. In fact I mentioned the 104k (100,000pF) cap is what was needed right there before the toroid began to oscillate.

On our scope you can put it on hold (memory button) while you adjust the vertical Markers 1 and 2. That is how I find the frequency when it is jumping a lot and when it is too small and hard to see. JUST REMEMBER to un hold it before you push t/div ... you know, lest you get lost.

I hope this helps and makes sense.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 29, 2009, 01:04:43 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 29, 2009, 11:42:25 AM
Yes, in fact I always check on the pickup for the frequency but I often forget to mention that. So, thanks for helping me clarify this.

Yes, well as I mentioned last night, I have had a rash of the same thing happening (quantum effect to be sure!!) I bet the 3055 needs more turns to get it to start too, since that has been the cure for all the toroids that didn't start.
They all, no matter what size, needed more turns and once they started they had incredibly high frequency.
The scope is only guessing at some point above 1 or 2 MHz I can't remember which. It will guess as high as 5.6MHz - I saw that yesterday!.

When it says NORM instead of RUN it is guessing.

I even got 2.4MHz from my EB for the last 2 days.

Last year Ian Middleton (an EE) told me he suspected the stubblefield generator was oscillating at a frequency higher than 4 or 5 MHz. (In fact, since I was working just on that, I put off buying the scope since it wasn't able to go that fast. ) I am glad to find the earth by itself is lower so I can read it.

Yes, I have had a lot of this too.
I think some of that happens when the size of the cap is wrong.
There are many ways to use caps.

I posted Tesla's explanation with the tank metaphor because it sooo clearly described what HE was doing with the caps/condensers.
Bill Beaty on amasci.com has a really wonderful description of the cap and what it does.
I only remember what I understood of it a few years ago. I am reminded to read it again.

Xee2 has been studying the cap effect on the different primary coils of the jt and xee2 does not have a scope, so I did a little study to help out. I learned quite a bit as well... ;).

If you put the legs of a ceramic (non electrolytic) cap at the same place (so parallel) as the base resistor you will get a certain effect. In fact I mentioned the 104k (100,000pF) cap is what was needed right there before the toroid began to oscillate.

On our scope you can put it on hold (memory button) while you adjust the vertical Markers 1 and 2. That is how I find the frequency when it is jumping a lot and when it is too small and hard to see. JUST REMEMBER to un hold it before you push t/div ... you know, lest you get lost.

I hope this helps and makes sense.

jeanna

Thank you so very much. I am going to need to start paying you a consulting fee for all the help you are giving me with the scope :)

I am noticing some very odd results on my setup. If you get a chance can you please try this? Take two toroids at 200kHz and put then close to each other as in with in 1 inch. take one leg of one pickup coil from one toroid and pair it with one leg from the other one.

Repeat the process from the other two legs. It seems to drop the over all current draw from the battery's and increase the voltage on the wire?

It seems the Frequency is very important in making it work correctly.

Take care:)

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 29, 2009, 01:26:51 PM

Quote from: electricme on May 28, 2009, 09:50:49 PM
@stprue,

Thankyou, I have been wanting to do this for a long time, but I had to wait for my supercap.
jim

As soon as I get the $$ I'm going to but 650f sc!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 29, 2009, 03:27:40 PM

Quote from: altrez on May 29, 2009, 01:04:43 PM

...Take two toroids at 200kHz and put then close to each other as in with in 1 inch. take one leg of one pickup coil from one toroid and pair it with one leg from the other one.

It seems the Frequency is very important in making it work correctly.

I am not sure what a 200KHz toroid is. Is it connected to its own transistor?

The rest of what I am picturing from your description is a series connection which would increase the volts and not effect the amps. But you say it decreases the amps?

Please describe this again. I am not following you.
Do you have a way to draw this? That would help I think.

jeanna

if you gave me a fee for helping with your scope... this wouldn't be open source, and I would be obliged to give it to xee and theNOP. But this is open source... just help the next guy.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 29, 2009, 04:31:49 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 29, 2009, 03:27:40 PM
I am not sure what a 200KHz toroid is. Is it connected to its own transistor?

The rest of what I am picturing from your description is a series connection which would increase the volts and not effect the amps. But you say it decreases the amps?

Please describe this again. I am not following you.
Do you have a way to draw this? That would help I think.

jeanna

if you gave me a fee for helping with your scope... this wouldn't be open source, and I would be obliged to give it to xee and theNOP. But this is open source... just help the next guy.

Or gal.

Ha ha. but, that is totally correct Jeana. To me, that is what open source is all about.

Bill ***EDIT*** I have lost count of all of the folks that have taught me and helped me here, and I try to help folks whenever I can.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on May 29, 2009, 05:19:33 PM

@all

This is a must see !!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQdcwDCBoNY&feature=channel_page

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 29, 2009, 05:48:39 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 29, 2009, 12:25:42 AM
OK here is what helps.

Now I understand those among us who seem to always have the 104k cap in parallel to the base resistor.

I wound another primary and got the BJTL to go on with
4TB,11TC,(I have a temporary pickup of 10 turns.)

So, the toroid needs 4T,11T to turn on the led and have it be bright enough. I started to remove some of the 11T from the collector coil and the amps draw started up and the light got dimmer. egads! I started with 11T of each and went down; maybe I should add more than 11 to the collector coil.

The 10T pickup is producing 2.12V but ONLY if I have the 104k cap parallel to the base resistor and the light is in there.
If I pull out the BJTLed, the volts off the secondary go DOWN to 1.8v !!

The frequency is 1.4MHz

I guess I got my high frequency. ;)

jeanna

hey jenna could you post a schematic drawing of this setup? sounds great! sounds a lot like my current setup but i want to know for sure so i can replicate.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 29, 2009, 06:01:58 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on May 29, 2009, 05:48:39 PM
hey jeanna could you post a schematic drawing of this setup? sounds great! sounds a lot like my current setup but i want to know for sure so i can replicate.

Sure. I need a break right now so I will draw it. It is just temporary, but I will. I am not sure what I said that makes it sound different from what I have done in the past, but I know it is easier when there aren't sooo many words.

Here it is

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 29, 2009, 06:04:24 PM

on that resonance video did you hear the high pitch? i suspect thats the inductor itself resonating like previously described here. do you think if the inductor vibrated at resonance IE little current was needed to keep it vibrating it could induce a magnetic current itself?... wonder how that works......

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 29, 2009, 06:08:52 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 29, 2009, 06:01:58 PM
Sure. I need a break right now so I will draw it. It is just temporary, but I will. I am not sure what I said that makes it sound different from what I have done in the past, but I know it is easier when there aren't sooo many words.

I will edit this post with it in a bit.

jeanna

thanks jeanna your the best. it sounds fairly standard but i just want to check and see the turns vs resistors and caps to check my settings and see if were doing the same things :) since i dont have access to a scope at this time i cant tell what my freq is so this will give me an idea. and id love to tweek with the coils like you were to see the voltages change and learn more that way.

im playing with the tesla bifiliar coils, if you get a chance you should try! they are amazing! they will most likely increase your effeciency greatly! i would say figure out the number of turns you need to hit your voltage and change that to a bifiliar and see how that affects your output. remember if you do this to use a regular wound pickup coil and a bifiliar output (if your moving it to another torroid or transformer) but 2 bifiliars for the base and collector should get a good result!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 29, 2009, 06:39:19 PM

I got Jesus;s basic chargerJT running
I used 1n5408 diodes and a 1uF cap becuse that is what I have .

Like my flyback circuit it will not keep up at max power .
At .09A it nothing changed except my battery draw crept up to .11A
As it crept up my meters started winding down

At .04 A battery draw it seems to be charging well .
I think I am going to have to change the battery
It went up nice and steady from 1.207 to 1.273 then stopped
Ny secondary went from 2.189 to 2.814 then started dropping slowly .
The battery was well charged when I started
I will drain a battery a little and try it again .

A lead acid battery will follow a similar pattern as it is reconditioned . It reaches a max voltage then the voltage drops a little as the internal resistance of the battery drops .

I used a electronic Goldmine 5 for $1 toroid with a basic MK2 with a small secondary

It will be interesting seeing if my LMs work the same with it .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 29, 2009, 06:41:46 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on May 29, 2009, 12:46:36 AM
@nop

Multi signal yes but single freq tuner ! i guess you need 3 to have some fun , maybe 3 diode radio but they would need to be tune to a something better then radio stations .

radio waves are all mixed in space and you need to tune to receive the frequency you want.

actually a radio receiver is tuning to a narrow band of frequencies with the exact frequency being in the middle of that band.
in some military radio receiver applications they tune to more then just one carrier at same time at an even narrower band frequency.
they split the informations(data/video/audio/etc...) through all the carriers.

the way radio signal are demodulated require a base frequency mixed with the selected frequency to extract the audio signal.
that audio signal itself is a multitude of frequencies in the range of 1Hz to about 22kHz, if i remember right.

FM synthesizer(sound card) are using 3 frequencies to modulate sounds.
a carrier frequency, a modulation frequency and a modulation index.
you can also play more then one note at a time.

the effects or phenomenas that happen in the audio frequencies range are known.
there are also phase shiftted frequency(ies).
they are used to create ambiophonic, surround sound, etc..., and in FM demodulator.
while they are same frequency(ies) the phase shift actually make them a separated thing that interact differently, even with the same unshiftted frequency.

the thing is that these effects and phenomenas apply to any base frequencies, 1HZ to infinity, given you mix it with the proper other frequencies to get the effect/phenomena that you want.
so saying much is need to be discovred about AC is not quit true.

the possible interaction of mixed frequencies with our environment and/or various materials, are not all known, some are tho.

for some materials it might be known.
but any kind of data is not easily acessible when there are no commercial interest potential in view.

@gadgetmall
you seem to assume that 3 frequencies are the whole thing about the tpu.
and that the reason why the tpu is still an utopie is due to the fact mixed frequencies are not fully understood.
i am probably wrong about this, but it is the impression i have about what you wrote.

what i am assuming about the tpu is that the frequencies are only one of the things that could make it tick.

the problem is that we are both assuming about the tpu.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 29, 2009, 07:05:23 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on May 29, 2009, 06:08:52 PM

im playing with the tesla bifiliar coils, if you get a chance you should try! they are amazing! they will most likely increase your efficiency greatly! i would say figure out the number of turns you need to hit your voltage and change that to a bifiliar and see how that affects your output. remember if you do this to use a regular wound pickup coil and a bifiliar output (if your moving it to another torroid or transformer) but 2 bifiliars for the base and collector should get a good result!

OK I made the drawing with some numbers.
The high frequency was with 33 ohm on the base resistor.

I am not sure what you mean. I am ONLY using bifilar.

The primary on a joule thief is a bifilar and

the pick up on the MK designs is also bifilar. I prefer the MK designs to any others.

I do agree it will improve efficiency greatly. I have been getting that improvement. I have a powerhouse with the 2 tier. I am a beginning self taught electronics student. And my interest is in ac.

Do you have a camera? It would be terrific to see one of the things you have made.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 29, 2009, 07:06:25 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on May 29, 2009, 11:06:11 AM
I have heard that the big difference between rechargable and non rechargeable alkaline batterys is that the rechargeable have better seals

they are not made from the same materials.

alkaline batteries will, in a normal charger, heat to the point they leak or explod
this due to the materials expension and/or inner gases production, while being charge, that is greater then the material used in rechargables.

unlike rechargable, the materials used in alkaline have limited charges reversal capabilities.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 29, 2009, 07:18:45 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on May 29, 2009, 07:06:25 PM
they are not made from the same materials.

alkaline batteries will, in a normal charger, heat to the point they leak or explod
this due to the materials expension and/or inner gases production, while being charge, that is greater then the material used in rechargables.

unlike rechargable, the materials used in alkaline have limited charges reversal capabilities.

I have seen non rechargables recharged
I don't do it .... I don't think that the savings is worth the eventual mess when the seals give out

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 29, 2009, 07:31:41 PM

On my battery charger JT
I added the 4th diode ( improvement 1)

The output of my secondary went up over 3.5 V so I added 5 LEDs
The secondary was 2.162 V when I first connected the 4th diode it is now 2.621 V
The battery voltage started at 1.255 and is at 1.257
The battery current jumped from .04 A to .12 A when I added the diode

This is working great

Jesus is my new hero

:)

Next step adding the big cap

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 29, 2009, 07:40:01 PM

Wow improvement 1 seems great.
I am looking forward to improvement 2 :D

This is great jesus and gary!. I will do this. This will be my second use of the diode. Good for me to learn about this entity.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 29, 2009, 07:51:11 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on May 29, 2009, 07:18:45 PM
I have seen non rechargables recharged
I don't do it .... I don't think that the savings is worth the eventual mess when the seals give out

me too.
i have seen both happening.

in fact i have one "charger" i buyed 18~20 years ago that were sold as "non rechargable batteries keeper".
it is a special kind of trigger charge charger using a frequency, ~1kHz i think.

i never had a leaked or exploded alkaline with it.
it also work with cheap AA, C and D batteries

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 29, 2009, 08:12:58 PM

I tried adding the cap for improvment 2

I didn't have a 2200 uF cap but I did find a 1000 and a 1200

The caps did not seem to change anything

I tried both larger and smaller caps .....none seemed to do very much

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: weri812 on May 29, 2009, 08:22:49 PM

to all

this plug in will let you play 3gp video in windows media player

http://dc15.4shared.com/download/108659801/ead4b8fd/ffdshow-rev2946_20090515_xxl.exe

enjoy
God Bless
wer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 29, 2009, 08:25:45 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on May 29, 2009, 07:51:11 PM
me too.
i have seen both happening.

in fact i have one "charger" i buyed 18~20 years ago that were sold as "non rechargable batteries keeper".
it is a special kind of trigger charge charger using a frequency, ~1kHz i think.

i never had a leaked or exploded alkaline with it.
it also work with cheap AA, C and D batteries

TheNOP

I remember seeing the adds for that charger

I have a dewalt 18 V battery that has not responded to my capacitive charger I am thinking of setting up a Jesus JT with a secondary that puts out 20 to 25 V I will use 1 diode to keep the current going in the right direction .
If it does not work .........that is OK ........I have tried everything else I know of to recondition it ..... It is useless as it is .....only 1.2 V

gary

I am also thinking of putting one of these on my car battery
I try to recondition it a couple times a year . I don't have a good place to do that right now
It takes a couple days to do it right.
If you try tio rush the process you mostly boil off electrolyte
I am thinking that even .12 A 24 hr a day would be a pretty good reconditioner

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 29, 2009, 08:50:41 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on May 29, 2009, 08:25:45 PM

TheNOP

I remember seeing the adds for that charger

I have a dewalt 18 V battery that has not responded to my capacitive charger I am thinking of setting up a Jesus JT with a secondary that puts out 20 to 25 V I will use 1 diode to keep the current going in the right direction .
If it does not work .........that is OK ........I have tried everything else I know of to recondition it ..... It is useless as it is .....only 1.2 V

gary

I am also thinking of putting one of these on my car battery
I try to recondition it a couple times a year . I don't have a good place to do that right now
It takes a couple days to do it right.
If you try tio rush the process you mostly boil off electrolyte
I am thinking that even .12 A 24 hr a day would be a pretty good reconditioner

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 29, 2009, 09:42:30 PM

@Altrez
Hello Gary, well if I click on the paperclip, below the pink icon, my pc just reads the 3gp file and a small player pops up, I click on the Go Arrow and it plays,

Quote from: resonanceman on May 29, 2009, 10:31:33 AM

Jim

You must be talking about those teeny weeny videos
I have seen them but never got one to play .

Does it require a special player ?

gary

If you do a Google search for "3gp player", there are several avaliable, just install one of them.
Try this one http://www.reganam.com/3gp-player.htm
or this one it has players for all O/S http://www.downloadatoz.com/3gp-player/

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on May 29, 2009, 09:44:11 PM

@all

I am ashamed now and I want to apologize for my second failure. It seems that the whole thing was a lose connection. I will post no more.
I will not resist a third failure.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 29, 2009, 10:41:05 PM

did i hear that the earth batteries are resonating at 2.4MHZ ? you know the resonance of water is 2.4GHZ which is what microwave ovens use to heat water and thus food! i wonder if theres a connection here as they are strangely alike.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 29, 2009, 10:47:59 PM

@jeanna
this is the tesla bifiliar i use, its created by using one wire, folding in half and winding it a number of turns then cut the fold in half, join the output of one coil to the input of the other and you get 2 coils side by side as one coil, is this what you are using jenna?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 29, 2009, 11:04:43 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on May 29, 2009, 08:25:45 PM
I have a dewalt 18 V battery that has not responded to my capacitive charger I am thinking of setting up a Jesus JT with a secondary that puts out 20 to 25 V I will use 1 diode to keep the current going in the right direction .
If it does not work .........that is OK ........I have tried everything else I know of to recondition it ..... It is useless as it is .....only 1.2 V

I am also thinking of putting one of these on my car battery
I try to recondition it a couple times a year . I don't have a good place to do that right now
It takes a couple days to do it right.
If you try tio rush the process you mostly boil off electrolyte
I am thinking that even .12 A 24 hr a day would be a pretty good reconditioner

any jt should do, even the basic ones.

my experience with batteries with voltage without amps is comming from that "charger".
it does also recharge rechargeable batteries, but it take days to fully charge them.
the volts is the first thing to reach 1.2 volts, usually within a few hours.
once the max voltage of the battery is reached, charging it in a conventionnal charger, if you are in a hurry, will work.

you can extend the battery's life this way, but there are limits.
the charges the battery will be able to hold, if it worked, will not be as if the batttery was new.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on May 29, 2009, 11:17:44 PM

@all

Again for those that did not see it yet ! Even Stefan commented it as 2:1 overunity .

This can work with the jt , gadget know !

Mark

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQdcwDCBoNY&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Idey7O0WlU0&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Xefg-EfC4Q&feature=channel_page

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 29, 2009, 11:38:15 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on May 29, 2009, 09:44:11 PM
I made a new circuit schematic
Jesus

I put together your selfcharger on today's experimental toroid. Not the new one, but the one from yesterday with improvement 1 which is the second diode going to the battery rail.

I wound a small but bigger pickup of 40 turns over a collector coil of 11turns. and that pickup is running 2 leds in series. The ac in the pickup has too much voltage to run just one or many in parallel.

The basic joule thief light is lit across the E-C junction, and the diodes of your improvement 1 design are both going into the battery rail into the + side of the battery.

Nothing is melting or even hot.

Wow, jesus, this is really exciting. (I guess you can tell I was a bit scared of it!)

So, I will have to wait to see how much it charges, won't I?
Is there a way to 'watch it'?
I didn't get a reading across the battery terminals.

This is so excellent.
The ac being made by the JTC is able to do its regular work and the dc otherwise lost in the circuit can complete the dc circuit and fill the battery.

If this collects ANY of what is normally lost to nowhere'sville, this is a great advancement.
It is not necessary to achieve more than the original battery charge (OU) for this to be a success.

You do realize that don't you?

I am so wanting to be able to peek into the battery and watch it charge up!!
EDIT
I looked at the schematic again and realized that you do not have the led in the bjtl spot. I took it out. It was going dim.

jeanna :D

@Artic Knight
That is an excellent drawing of the basic joule thief primary bifilar wires.
Thank you. Well done!
I think this is the reason it has been so successful from the beginning.
Good job.
Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 29, 2009, 11:49:28 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on May 29, 2009, 10:41:05 PM
did i hear that the earth batteries are resonating at 2.4MHZ ? you know the resonance of water is 2.4GHZ which is what microwave ovens use to heat water and thus food! i wonder if theres a connection here as they are strangely alike.

I thought the resonance of water was 42,800Hz.
I get THAT all the time with my little ones made with the tor-23.

I haven't set up the tor-23 with the steel plates yet, but I will.

I just wonder how much the plates will change the frequency. I don't figure it will matter, since it is so easy to change the frequency with a pot or the number of turns.

Yes, I got that on my scope a couple of days running. It has the appearance that gadget's buddy gets in a carolina, so I thought I should post it.
I don't know about anything but radiowaves being in the 2.4MHz range. I wasn't even sure I wasn't picking up radio FM. Gadget can correct me on these frequencies. He is a radio guy.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 30, 2009, 12:29:10 AM

@all

Well I have been running now on the same set of battery's for 5 days now :) I have noticed that I can also fill caps while charging!

I have went higher then my starting volts on source battery :) So now i am moving on to charging 3 AA's and a CAP with a load as well :)

@Mk1

I watched those youtube videos and that seems to be close to what I discovered with to toroids running at 200 kHz

@jeanna

If you take two toroids and wind them exactly alike they will resonate with each other. Use a 3rd toroid or signal generator to push one.

Mk1 posted a link to some videos that show what I was trying to explain earlier:) I stumbled across the same thing by accident when setting up a second self charging rig.

Take care all!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 30, 2009, 12:38:41 AM

@ Mk1

Quote from: Mk1 on May 29, 2009, 11:17:44 PM
@all

Again for those that did not see it yet ! Even Stefan commented it as 2:1 overunity .

This can work with the jt , gadget know !

Mark

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQdcwDCBoNY&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Idey7O0WlU0&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Xefg-EfC4Q&feature=channel_page

This another example of someone coming to crazy conclusions because they do not understand what they are doing. There is no power gain. There is only misunderstanding. He needs to spend a couple of years learning AC circuit theory. DC power equations can not be used to compute AC power.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 30, 2009, 01:11:38 AM

@ Artic_Knight

Quote from: Artic_Knight on May 29, 2009, 10:47:59 PM
@jeanna
this is the tesla bifiliar i use, its created by using one wire, folding in half and winding it a number of turns then cut the fold in half, join the output of one coil to the input of the other and you get 2 coils side by side as one coil, is this what you are using jenna?

This is a common two layer solenoid coil. I do not understand why you call it a "tesla bifiliar". Using uncommon names for common things only creates confusion as to what you are talking about.

Great drawing. It clearly shows what you are talking about.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on May 30, 2009, 01:32:30 AM

quick comment on 3 freqs ...

your not ready for this in the coils u have in my opinion ...

but truth is i never tryed ...

tesla says no problem ..

will it work the same as my tpu tests ... nope i dont think so ...

when you master 2 freq then do 3 ...

2 freq will severly hurt you ... ;)

but scaled a wee bit more than you are useing now ..

with some magnets ... ;)

also you will find it intresting for those with eyes to see this came from carveings in stone posted in the lotr thred ..

now i just so happin to find some more ...

and i choose to share with you to move you forward to the truth ..

:)

to where do both pos and neg turn there heads ?!?!?!?!?!

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 30, 2009, 02:01:42 AM

@Resonanceman
Hello Gary, put an add in a paper asking people to let you have their preloved computer for $10 bucks, offer to pick it up for free.
Youll be surprised how many people ring up to get rid of their "junk".

Quote from: resonanceman on May 29, 2009, 10:58:24 AM
Gadget

Right now I only have T-Mobile for internet .
The problem is where I use my computer now I am in an area with very poor reception ...... It worked much better when I had a better signal .
T-Mobile is upgrading their system They have a new USB reciever that replaces what I am using now ...... PCMCIA wireless card ,

Unfortunatly my income is very limited right now .......and looks like it is going to get worse before it gets better . SO I pretty much have to stay with what I have .

If things get a little better I will probably get a different computer and upgrade to a the new T- mobile system or a different carrier .

I am using a notebook .......In theory I could take it out and find a hot spot ......but this thing is on its last leg
The battery is shot .... The fan is really noisy and the hinges are broke .
I could fix these problems ..........but it would cost me about as much as a mini notebook I have been looking at .

gary

I just came back from the junk man, scorred myself a small UPS and a power supply with a see through plastic fan, picked up a 125Gig HD, all for $5.00.

Another way to get hold of redundant PCs is to do a "flyer drop" in a well off subburb, tell em you refurbish computers and need parts from others to rebuild em.

Once word gets around that you are a computer man, people will actually give you their old PCs rather than turf them out. :D

Go and visit your local council tip, see the head honcho, tel him you need a secondhand PC, and offer a few bucks to get one.

I just walked into the local scrap fella and said, hi fellas, I looking for a computer, have you got any? Back came the answer, shure, go down this side of the building, take you pick, there was about 50 in the pile, all sizes and types.

hope this helps

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 30, 2009, 02:39:38 AM

Jim:

I got 2 computers (so far) and one monitor out of the dumpster at my apartment complex! People are always tossing away good stuff.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on May 30, 2009, 07:11:36 AM

@all

I am ashamed now and I want to apologize for my second failure. It seems that the whole thing was a lose connection. I will post no more.
I will not resist a third failure.

I know that the loop is there because I had it in front of me working and recharging the battery everyday to the same voltage while working the joule thief.
But I made a test adding a ceramic 104k accross the base resistor and the whole thing changed its behavior and worked no more.
I know that it was a bad connection which made the loop because I put solder on the joule thief legs and when I reassembled the joule thief, the LED stayed on no matter if the switch was open or closed.

I will let the task to find which connection produce that behavior to the young.

Again I cannot resist another public failure.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 30, 2009, 09:47:13 AM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on May 30, 2009, 07:11:36 AM
@all

I am ashamed now and I want to apologize for my second failure. It seems that the whole thing was a lose connection. I will post no more.
I will not resist a third failure.

I know that the loop is there because I had it in front of me working and recharging the battery everyday to the same voltage while working the joule thief.
But I made a test adding a ceramic 104k accross the base resistor and the whole thing changed its behavior and worked no more.
I know that it was a bad connection which made the loop because I put solder on the joule thief legs and when I reassembled the joule thief, the LED stayed on no matter if the switch was open or closed.

I will let the task to find which connection produce that behavior to the young.

Again I cannot resist another public failure.

Jesus

Hey Man,

Do NOT give up!! You are close VERY close to your goal. I have noticed on my self charger that the connections have an important part to play and I do not mean just completing the circuit. I tried to make better connections and lost my oscillating effect that seems to be the reason for the charging of my battery's.

I think it has something to do with resistance and load on the circuit when matched with the frequency that the toroid is resonating at. Try to unsolder your connections and place small v-resistors on each one so that you can micro adjust. Also place a voltage regulator on your AA to tune the circuit.

Then you find the perfect setup for charging. However what I have noticed as a side effect that it will also charge my source battery I am not sure exactly way but it is very good!!! However once it gets to a certain level the circuit changes and needs to be readjusted.

Keep it up! And thank you so much for all the wonderful diagrams.

Take care!!!!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 30, 2009, 09:55:54 AM

@ nievesoliveras

Quote from: nievesoliveras on May 30, 2009, 07:11:36 AM
I am ashamed now and I want to apologize for my second failure.

As far as I am concerned, no apology is needed. Every one makes mistakes. I see lots of them on this web site. I think it is more importand to share than to worry about making a mistake. Hopefully, when there is a mistake it will be found by someone. Thanks for posting information about the error.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 30, 2009, 10:08:37 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on May 29, 2009, 11:17:44 PM
@all

Again for those that did not see it yet ! Even Stefan commented it as 2:1 overunity .

This can work with the jt , gadget know !

Mark

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQdcwDCBoNY&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Idey7O0WlU0&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Xefg-EfC4Q&feature=channel_page

Yes i do know . If you look at it this way . Replace the Sg with our transistor Osc . we have our signal generator then we TUNE it for Least Input Ma . WALA . Its what i have been saying all along . We need to get the input DOWN With Resonate Tank CIRCUITS !!!once resonate we have low input high output . Good FIND MK1 !!

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on May 30, 2009, 10:13:16 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 30, 2009, 10:08:37 AM
Yes i do know . If you look at it this way . Replace the Sg with our transistor Osc . we have our signal generator then we TUNE it for Least Input Ma . WALA . Its what i have been saying all along . We need to get the input DOWN With Resonate Tank CIRCUITS !!!once resonate we have low input high output . Good FIND MK1 !!

Gadget

THIS MY BROS WORK :D :D LOL
HOW EVER THERE BETTER WAYS AS I HAVE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG 8) 8) :P

GREAT WORK BRO !!

IST!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: allcanadian on May 30, 2009, 10:45:47 AM

@xee2
Quote:
"This another example of someone coming to crazy conclusions because they do not understand what they are doing. There is no power gain. There is only misunderstanding. He needs to spend a couple of years learning AC circuit theory. DC power equations can not be used to compute AC power."

No, this is another example of a person making baseless assumptions. I have done the experiment and it works as described, you see you have to actually perform the experiments to prove there validity or not. As well I have had conversations with the person in the video and I would consider him to have an advanced understanding of AC circuit theory, more so than most people I have met in this forum and that is why for most people what he does seems impossible.

Quote:
"This is a common two layer solenoid coil. I do not understand why you call it a "tesla bifiliar". Using uncommon names for common things only creates confusion as to what you are talking about."

Well, it is called a "Tesla Bifilar" because one Nicola Tesla invented and patented it in january 9,1894. Patent 512340 "Coil for Electro-Magnets". Take note of the date ----1894, this is well before anyone here was even born, before we had all these fancy measuring devices. Due credit and respect should be given to any persons who have made this world a better place---versus those who just talk about it.

Regards
AC

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 30, 2009, 11:12:39 AM

@ allcanadian

I agree that due respect should be given to inventors. But electronics has progressed a lot in the last 100 years. And perhaps using current terminology would make things easier to understand for non-historians.

As a historian, you also probably know that the inductive coupling experiment was done by Hertz a long time ago using spark gaps. I and thousands of other people have done versions of this experiment since then. I did not say it did not work. I said the explanation was wrong and that there is no power gain. If you do not understand that then you should check out some of what has been learned in the last 100 years.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 30, 2009, 11:14:54 AM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on May 30, 2009, 07:11:36 AM

I will let the task to find which connection produce that behavior to the young.
Jesus

Well, jesus,
That statement is the only failure I can see here.
I really mean it.
It takes courage to be willing to be wrong.
You have showed your courage many times in your willingness to risk being wrong.

You save others a lot of time and trouble when you publish your mistakes along with your successes.
To know that this sort of worked with a loose connection may be the clue you or someone else needs to make it really work.

Look up resinrat2's signature. I need to leave for the day so I cannot, but it is perfect about research and failures.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 30, 2009, 11:47:26 AM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on May 30, 2009, 07:11:36 AM
@all

I am ashamed now and I want to apologize for my second failure. It seems that the whole thing was a lose connection. I will post no more.
I will not resist a third failure.

Jeasus

You are clearly confused about a few things here .

Edison tried over 2000 different filaments before he tried tungsten .
Some people would say that he failed 2000 times before he succeeded .
I do not see it that way .
Edison would not have succeeded if he had given up before he tried tungsten .
Edison didn't fail at all because he did not give up .
No one fails until they give up .
No on is a failure until they believe that they are less of a person because something they tried did not work out .

Jeasus
If you need to a break or need to move on that is fine
It is OK if your circuit is not perfect.

It worked great for me for hours yesterday .....then something changed and I could not get it charging again .
I so NOT see that as a failure .
There is just stuff going on with your circuit than we yet understand .
In any case ......... you have did a great job.
Your circuit has lots of possibilitys even if it never makes it to a full blown self charger.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 30, 2009, 11:50:28 AM

@all

Wireless transmission of power with a properly tuned toroid is it possible? I have increased my charging voltage to 2.1 volts by some means and I am not sure exactly why but if I take a pickup coil and tune it like an antenna It will spike the voltage of any JT I have in the cluster?

-Altrez

P.S still on the same set of battery's.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 30, 2009, 12:11:57 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on May 29, 2009, 11:04:43 PM
any jt should do, even the basic ones.

my experience with batteries with voltage without amps is comming from that "charger".
it does also recharge rechargeable batteries, but it take days to fully charge them.
the volts is the first thing to reach 1.2 volts, usually within a few hours.
once the max voltage of the battery is reached, charging it in a conventionnal charger, if you are in a hurry, will work.

you can extend the battery's life this way, but there are limits.
the charges the battery will be able to hold, if it worked, will not be as if the batttery was new.

TheNOP

I agree that charging with pulsing DC is different than with aconventional charger

I am not sure that it is slower .
I keep my power low when I recharge ........ I want to KNOW that I am not boiling off electrolyte . I want to be able tp leave it alone for a while and now that it is not doing any damage ..........

I agree that there is a limit to the life of batterys .............but I am finding that with lead acid at least the life can be many times what most people get out of them .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 30, 2009, 12:18:55 PM

Quote from: electricme on May 30, 2009, 02:01:42 AM
@Resonanceman
Hello Gary, put an add in a paper asking people to let you have their preloved computer for $10 bucks, offer to pick it up for free.
Youll be surprised how many people ring up to get rid of their "junk".

I just came back from the junk man, scorred myself a small UPS and a power supply with a see through plastic fan, picked up a 125Gig HD, all for $5.00.

Another way to get hold of redundant PCs is to do a "flyer drop" in a well off subburb, tell em you refurbish computers and need parts from others to rebuild em.

Once word gets around that you are a computer man, people will actually give you their old PCs rather than turf them out. :D

Go and visit your local council tip, see the head honcho, tel him you need a secondhand PC, and offer a few bucks to get one.

I just walked into the local scrap fella and said, hi fellas, I looking for a computer, have you got any? Back came the answer, shure, go down this side of the building, take you pick, there was about 50 in the pile, all sizes and types.

hope this helps

jim

Jim

Thanks for the advice

:)

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 30, 2009, 12:21:41 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on May 29, 2009, 05:19:33 PM
@all

This is a must see !!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQdcwDCBoNY&feature=channel_page

This is incredible, I will preform this experiment to see what type of voltage and current are being used and produced after my vacation 2 weeks man that's going to be a lot of reading!

This looks like what tesla was talking about with some of his coils!

Good find MK1

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 30, 2009, 12:26:14 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on May 29, 2009, 11:17:44 PM
@all

Again for those that did not see it yet ! Even Stefan commented it as 2:1 overunity .

This can work with the jt , gadget know !

Mark

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQdcwDCBoNY&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Idey7O0WlU0&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Xefg-EfC4Q&feature=channel_page

The work is done for us!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 30, 2009, 12:45:46 PM

@ all

For those interested in wireless power transmission, here is another construction example you may be interested in:

http://www.instructables.com/id/Wireless-Power-Transmission-Over-Short-Distances-U/

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 30, 2009, 01:04:18 PM

A small history of Ou . Most were killed or died to prevent the world economy from so called collapse. (BS )Most were discriminated and made to look like Kooks to hide there work . Most were threatened by the established oil governments and military madness to keep the technology for war and power over the people by making us slaves to expensive fossil fuel and No they Don't care about the Environment or an individual person that makes the Majority . We are controlled By a demented Few who Value money over the well being of a family or the earth . IF they did we would have had every home and factory powering itself in the 40's after Roswell and we would be a lot better and much more happier knowing we could drive our cars on water or power our devices for nothing and heat and cool our homes for free and Yes Each Person would have the power to Destroy the ones who try to harm them .Global Security from the madness of Political CRAP! Right now its only guns but a few of us have Technology , Lasers , Rail Devices , EM devices . Lets spread the Joy and to hell with those who try and stop us in 2009 ! A simple theory can lead out a big invention.
* Villand de Honnecourt 13th century had a drawing of one.
* Leonardo da vinci made a number of drawings of things he hoped would make energy for free.
* Jesuit priest, Johanes Taisnerius worked on a magnetic based perpetual motion machine
* Mimara in 1518 designed a "self-blowing windmill"
* John Dee of 16th century reported seeing one - but wasn't allowed a closer look
* Cornelis Drebbel 1610, was an alchemist and magician supposedly made one. (hundreds have tried to replicate alchemy too)
* Robert Fludd 1630 proposed many machines -people were trying to patent variations of Fludd's failures in the 1870's
* 1635 - first of many English perpetual motion machine patents granted. - by 1903, 600 such patents had been granted. Free energy claimants love impressing people with patents (most people don't understand that a patent can't promise feasibility)
* Edward Somerset 1638 demonstrated many lacking free energy water wheels to the king of France
* Ulrich von Carnach in 1664 in Germany designed a perpetual ball moving machine that never worked.
* scientist Jean Bernoulli(1667 - 1748) proposed a fluid energy machine
* Bockler in 1686 made designs for self powered water mills.
* In 1712 Johann Bessler aka Orffyreus investigated 300 different perpetual motion models and claimed he had the secret of perpetual motion and got much investment money - was declared a fraud but here's site which believes he had something that worked had constructed a machine which demonstrated his claim. another site about Bessler and anotherï¿½ His own employees claimed the device was a fraud.
* Dr Conradus Schiviers in 1790 made a belt driven wheel- others tried more unsuccessful adaptations a century later
* Sir William Congreve in 1827 tried a machine running on capillary action (many others failed in this attempt too)
* Britisher Henry Prince1866 described the first partially submerged perpetual motion machine.
* Mark Zimara of Italy had a huge air powered machine that never worked
* Horace Wickmam of the USA got a patent to a machine with many balls that just rotate around.
* Austrian, Alois Drasch patented a unsuccessful machine in the US in 1868
* german, George Andreas Bockler proposed 'self operating mills' using variants of Archimdes screws
* Charles Redheffer in 1812 in Philadelphia made much money on a perpetual motion machine, tried to restrict scientific evaluation, but was eventually debunked. Afterwards, he still made money on similar scams.
* Scottish shoemaker Spence, designed a magnetic based machine which was debunked.
* E. P. Willis of Connecticut made money off a perpetual motion machine in 1870 - people eventually found out a secret source of power to it.
* John Worrel Keely of Philadelphia in 1872 (he also had a traveling show of exhibitions). He fooled many scientists with a machine which appeared to run on water. He raised 5 million of investor money (more for the time than Dennis has raised). Keely tried to avoid being tested. The machine was based on hidden air pressure tubes. In spite of massive fraud being found - there are still believers in his 'technology' today.
* John Gamgee in 1881 got considerable support for a machine very similar to Dennis Lee's which used liquid ammonia (because it could operate at freezing) - it got vaporized from heat readily available, thus expanding it would drive a piston. Gamgee wrongly thought the vapor would condense to liquid to start the cycle over again. The Navy appeared to have been fooled and showed it to president Garfield - it never went anywhere Tom Napier agrees that Dennis Lee may have resurrected Gamgee's bogus engine
* J. M. Aldrich was arrested for getting investors for his free energy machine in 1899 - he some how was able to avoid conviction and conned many investors. One of whom was finally able to inspect the machine found a hidden spring
* John Andrews in 1917 had a green powder he said turned water to gas (actually many people did this scam) - he tricked the Navy
* Garabed T.K. Giragossian in 1917 claimed to have a free energy machine. He was one of the early frauds to hid behind conspiracy theory. Woodrow Wilson signed a resolution offering him protection from some kind of conspiracy. After much fanfare, and delaying tactics his machine turned out to be a giant flywheel which was charged up with energy slowly and put out a lot of energy for just a second. In spite of lack of proof of anything significant his followers still bothered the US congress for recognition.
* T.H. Moray in the 20's cemonstated a "radient energy device" to many people who were unable to find a hidden power source. Some how, the secret was said to have been forgotten.
* Lester Hendershot in 1928 got an Army commandant to endorse his free energy machine - but it was later found to have a hidden power source in the motor. His sons believe Lester lost his notes and that maybe they can rediscover how to get it to work.
* Robert Johnson's permanent magnet motor got a patent but faded into oblivion.
* Viktor Schauberger Claimed to have discovered some special vortex energy in water. Since he died in 1958, I don't know if his claims have been replicated, but people are still studying his works
* Mr Papf in 1966 was a conspiracy believer alternative car engine got a few investors but killed someone during a demo. He tried to blame the problem on an investigating skeptic. He disappeared and became part of urban legend of scores of people which the big conspiracy has been silencing for generations.
* Guido Franch was convicted of fraud in 1954 and 1973 of selling rights to distribute little green pills that would convert water into gas. He hid behind conspiracy theory and secrecy to avoid fair testing. A number of people have run this scam and many people still believe there are pill repressed by the oil companies.
* Otis Carr in 1958 sold stock for a company to manufacture UFO's and free energy machines from Oklahoma. He claimed inspiration from Tesla, now his ideas are being used by Dennis Lee Anyone with more info on Otis or Carini please email lancemoody@mac.com
* Edgar Cayce even babble about "Motor's with no Fuel"
* McClintock was claimed to use air as a fuel and had a patent. (a patent doesn't mean something works)
* The Evgray machine scammed many investors (who didn't know how to test 'depleted' batteries). The perpetrators refused to let a knowledgeable person test the device. And the DA had trouble charging them because investments weren't made as stock purchases. A skeptical investigator who I talked with was denied permission to examine the device (skeptics rarely get a close look at this stuff)
* Arnold Burke in 1977 collected $800,000 of investor money (again, mostly from bible believing farmers) for a 'self acting pump'. He tried to hid behind religion. He called his device Jeremiah 33:3' Finally, an open test was done in 1979 and found a hidden source of electricity. His believers (with an infinite supply of denial ) still raised $250,000 to get out of a fraud conviction. He still went on making lots of claims with no evidence.
* Robert Adams in 1977 made all kinds of conspiracy and OU claims in New Zealand.Many still believe in the Adams Motor . - He had the obligatory battles over patents, debates over theory, debates over power measurement and dabbling in other areas of alt physics. He's 80 years old and said to have a scientific education. He has a lot of theories about Aether. Skeptical information
* Robert Stewart in 1978 got over $3,000,000 of investment money (much from farmers) for a closed cycle engine using freon rather than water. This 'engine' used the same scheme John Gamgee tried to sell the navy in 1882. -Eric Krieg thinks this is the same approach Dennis Lee's free energy machine works on. I think he just faded away (people claim he was silenced)
* Rory Johnson of Elgin Illinois, claimed to have invented a cold fusion, laser activated, magnetic motor that produced 525 HP, weighed 475 lbs, and would propel a large truck or bus 100,000 miles on about 2 lbs of deuterium. After signing a number of dealers, he moved all his equipment out of his labs, moved to CA and died. (to this day, folks say he was silenced by OPEC)
* RJeseph Maglich was a physicist and claimed to have a device in 1978 which harnessed fusion power from sea water. They say they put power in and get more power out. I've never heard of them since.
* Howard Johnson got a patent for a device that claimed to make free energy from a motor like device. (Note: a patent doesn't mean something works). As of 11/02, Stephen was claiming he would soon mail out samples of working ones. By 12/12/02, Stephen dropped out of contact.
* Keith Kenyon had a device claimed to produce more energy than consumed. Calculations seemed to not take power factor (also known as phase angle) into account. It never openly had it's output hooked up to its input. Even Dennis Lee tells his followers that all the over unity motors (claim to make more electricity than consumed) usually just fool people who can't measure power factor.
* Muller Moter Bill muller and Carmen muller of Germany raised money on an overunity motor and got a few followers, but never actually demonstrated one working
* Joseph Newman in 1984 claimed to have a free energy machine based on alternative physics. Like many perpetual motion inventors, he sued the US patent office. Many people wrongly measured the true power output of this machine, (they didn't realize you must specially calculate power for non sinusoidal current consumption). He now refuses to ship a unit for testing. Ten years ago, inventor Joseph Newman gave a open week-long demonstration in the Super dome in New Orleans. Over 9,000 people attended from across the country (including Dennis Lee who reportedly wanted to join his ideas with Newman. ) Newman is suing some former investors he claims are trying to steal his invention. I give more information. Evan Soule of Newman's organization offers a rebuttal
* Dennis Lee Since 1988 has been promising to demonstrate free electricity "in a month or two". He is much like Newman in his mixture of religion & extremist politics, evasion of qualified investigators, endless promises, threatening detractors, etc. He had a Fischer engine, a CRD device and now, and OU motor device. Dennis has invested in Searle and Stanley Meyer and joined Pantone in 2001 in a 50 state tour.
* Stanley Meyer 1996 claimed to have a water powered car and was also big on mixing Christianity and patriot politics in with fringe science. Meyer was found guilty of fraud after his Water Fuel Cell was tested before an Ohio judge. It is rare for an inventor to be prosecuted for an invention that does not work, but Meyer's problem was that he had been selling "dealerships", offering investors the "right to do business'' in Water Fuel Cell technology. Meyer refused to allow anyone else to measure his device. Dennis Lee invested in him. He died in early 1998.Stanley Meyers gets locked up for phony water powered cars
* Bruce De Palma had a machine in 1986 - which appeared to one Electrical Engineering professor to put out 4 times more power than consumed. Turned out it was just a measurement error. (I could go on and on with such examples) Bruce was a substance abuser living very high off investor money and unwilling to help investigators like PSITRON. A pathetic summary of the death of free energy claimant Bruce dePalma and a site dedicated to Bruce.
* Dr. Potapov sold a device that was claimed to produce more energy than consumed, there are claims that these didn't work and that people did not have refunds.
* John Bedini claims to have a free energy device, but seems closed to having competent independent people investigate John Bedini's claims a An independent writing on Can you get excess power with magnets and wires?
* Mr. Finsrud is a Norwegian artist who made a sculpture where a metal ball moves for weeks apparently with no outside influence. more info
* Don Watts of Las Vegas in around 1990 had a patented CEACU. which stands for Centrifugal Energy Amplification and Conversion Unit - it turned out to be one more investment fraud.
* Troy Reed of Oklahoma, was ready to issue licences for manufacturing his permanent magnet motor etc. He's taking investment money for a device he claims puts out more heat energy than input energy. He says he's dumped a few million into his designs over the last 10 years and had little interst in my prize offer when I contacted him in 2001
* David Hamel has a lot of Free energy ideas from Planet Kladen also check my info on him
* Stephan Marinov claimed to have proven much alternative physics and to have contacted a strange cult that claims to have a Free Energy Machine. He committed suicide on July 15, 1997. more information, But he left behind some intense rants
* Greg Watson sold kits for a rolling ball and track that were thought to have over unity in 1997. Attempts of replication I know of have failed. It may have been lack of proper level or measuring. People have reported being unable to get their money back. For other opinions, go to : smot2a failure to confirm
* Yule Brown scammed a lot of gullible investors in Austrailia for years with his Browns Gas claims. Eventually was picked up by Dennis Lee (who eventually declared him insane) and finally died in 1998.
* CETI These people have claimed to have a device that puts out anomalous yet small amounts of heat - maybe cold fusion. They raised millions. As of 10/97, they have not been willing to have me come over and see for myself. They have said, we want people to think it doesn't work so we won't have competition. I've wondered if the energy may have come from not accounting for friction effects from the cooling flow through the pellets. (Jed Rothwell a rational editor of Infinite Energy Magazine says "however, tests with CETI cells at Motorola, SRI and the French Atomic Energy Commission show no measurable friction) Milton Rothman has a response I openly admit that I have not followed all the history of cold fusion claims and am generally ignorant on the subject.
* In Jan 98 Barbara Hickox allegedly has a patent dating from 1981 for a $7500 fusion powered free energy system. I've started asking her for proof as of 10/98
* Paramahamsa Tewariof India claims to have a device that is 200% efficient (I'm told his measurement is questionable)
* RQM is a Swiss company selling FE machines found at www.rqm.ch - I heard they filed for bankruptcy 7/99
* Ted King is looking for people to buy stock for a car he plans to drive across the country using just 2 12 volt batteries. You can contact Ted if you want to buy shares.
* Bruce Perreault has claimed to have discovered a new element, the plasmatron, ion pump, radiant energy device, etc. He's said to be constantly trying to raise more money.
* Daniel Pomerleau of Canada claims to have something that works, but he isn't interested in releasing it (as 12/97)
* Brian Collin of Australia claims revelation from God (like most of these people) to make a free energy device. A Stephen Mark claimed he invented it. Investors are still out for around $80,000.
* Kawai and Takahashi - both of Japan claimed in the 90's to have overunity devices. - it did nothing more than drain batteries.
* Entropy Systems of Ohio 1999 Sanjay Amin got 1.6 million investment dollars for a device that would violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics. I've asked them to apply for my prize for proof. - they seem to have folded. See a rational review of Amin's claims.
* Carl Cella is a kooky guy who has claimed to have one of the many cars said to run on water.
* Robert LeBreton in 1999 claimed to be making a 600 hp free energy machine He asks for funding, people say he is a mental case.
* Renzo Boscolio in 1999 in Italy claimed to have low-energy nuclear reactions but refused to supply real proof that he promised to people who came out from Infinite Energy Magazine. Dave Cappelletti is said to still be collecting money for this.
* Doug Konzen of Seattle says he has an overunity motor in Jan of 2000 that anyone can see.
* Kipper Motor. In 10/00, Steve Elswick thought it was overunity. But David Sligar who paid $175 for plans could not get it working. It is reported to have run from a hidden microwave source of remote power
* Ludwig Brits and Victor Christie in 2001, claim the Lutec free electricity over unity motor/generator will soon be in Australia. They have little evidence and are trying to get small time people to send in money. to an off shore account As of 7/13/01, they have not responded to numerous local requests for validation.
* Jasker in 2002,an Irish company has claimed to have free electricity.ï¿½ (some have said it is just a joke) info more info
* Confidential Technology -Wayne Cochran died 12/29/02 Crazy Jack Carey jcarey9622@aol.comï¿½ 622took overï¿½ -he is more nuts than most, they have been promising FE soon for about 20 years now. @aol.com
* Tom Beardenâ€™s MEG device Tom has given classes teaching theory before people who donâ€™t have the math background to see it is justï¿½ ï¿½gobbledegook..ï¿½ A rational review of meg claims ï¿½and Randiâ€™s info and my info â€" Beardenâ€™s followers wonâ€™t allow this on their discussion boards.
* Gurbakhsh Singh Mann of India claims to have invented a gravity and buoyancy perpetual motion machines
* Michael J. Marshall in Las Vegas has a device called QSFG which stands for quick start fuelless generator he says 64 nations have asked him to build factories They claim to have been offered billions for the technology. He is said to have gotten an American Indian tribe to finance his efforts. According to news reports, he was released from the slammer in 1998, after serving time for fraud and grand theft auto - he's failed to pay employees..
* Carl Tilley and Robert Kibbey in 6/2001 in Tennessee have claimed some over unity device and other stuff.ï¿½ Their demonstration failed in 9/02 and as of 11/02, they have been evading proper demonstations.
* Stephen Walker in 9/2002 promised to send me and several others a free energy machine in mail.ï¿½ As of 12/02, still not here.
* Perendev promised to make some kind of free energyï¿½ This Norwegian guy said he was cheated out of $6000 by them.
* GWE Genesis World Energy In 2002 this group claimed to have 400 people who developed some device that sounds like it separates water into H2 and O2 using less energy than mainstream science says is possible.ï¿½ As of 2003, they have evaded independent confirmation.ï¿½ More info APS review
* Steven Greer (Disclosure Project) In 02.2003, Steven announced he had discovered some real sources of Free energy which he promised to make sure get proven to the general public.ï¿½ Many say that Greer is just plain nuts
* Bill Muller of Canadaï¿½ In.2003, he claimed to have some kind of OU device.ï¿½ Independent tests found it under unity
* Energie ï¿½In 2003 this Greek company promised a homopolar magnet (De Palma design) FE design by June of 2003.ï¿½ They actively seek investors.
* Steven Mark ï¿½In according to this report has been scamming people out of big money based on a faked over unity â€" heâ€™s thought to have preyed on dopey Hollywood types.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 30, 2009, 01:56:52 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 30, 2009, 12:38:41 AM
This another example of someone coming to crazy conclusions because they do not understand what they are doing. There is no power gain. There is only misunderstanding. He needs to spend a couple of years learning AC circuit theory. DC power equations can not be used to compute AC power.

i agree with you, except for the last thing.
i know that you know this already, i just want to clarify it for the others.

the equations can also be used with AC signal.
but not directly with the values our tools give us.
to compair apples with apples you need to calculate the AC RMS values first.
whitch can be a headake if the wave form is not a pure sinusoidal wave.

@mk1
what i see in those videos is the impedences difference of the coils versus the frequency.

resonnance is the fact that at a specific frequency a coil's impedence = 0.
whitch mean the coil have almost no "resistance" at a specific frequency.

if the impedence of the primary is high and the secondary impedence is low, most of the current will pass through the secondary.
the reverse is also true.

one wrong thing about AC is to assume that you don't have a closed circuit(current flow) if there are not 2 wires paths closing it relative to your power source.
for AC, capacitance is a closed circuit that let current circulate.
and since every conducting materials have parasitic capacitance, a high value capacitor is not always needed to let the current flow.

resonance effect is something special.
it kinda make your measurement tools read the energy passing through it numerous times.
meaning the same energy is measured more then just once.
if you try to tap that energy, the energy left, multipled by the resonance effect, will be exponencialy way lower.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on May 30, 2009, 02:39:14 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 30, 2009, 01:04:18 PMLester Hendershot in 1928 got an Army commandant to endorse his free energy machine - but it was later found to have a hidden power source in the motor. His sons believe Lester lost his notes and that maybe they can rediscover how to get it to work.

If you ask me he invented the tpu !!! his motor is no motor at all !

all the specs match the steven marks device if that's is name !

Lester had 3 sons , reading the story gave me a feeling of deja vu !

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 30, 2009, 03:31:15 PM

I have been playing with my Jesus JT / charger

It took a while but I got it charging again

One thing I observed many times .......when you add a larger cap to the base resistor more current flows

I was thinking that larger current flow per pulse is a good thing for a charger .

I tried adding 3uF to the tank

At high power settings I can not get it to charge .

When I cranked the resistance up high enough that the current from my battery read 0 the I noticed that the voltage of my battery was going up .
I would say that it is going up several times faster than it was last night .

The output of the secondary on my JT is 0
I left the LED in the original JT spot to help see what was going on ...it is flashing maybe twice a second ........ it is irragular but clearly speeding up as the battery voltage goes up .

I just noticed something.
I said that the output on my secondary was 0
Then I noticed that my 5 LEDs were still connected .
The meter I use for my output has a high/low function
The high without the LEDs was 3.7 V the low was .01 V
There was no light at all from the LEDs

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 30, 2009, 03:53:27 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on May 30, 2009, 03:31:15 PM
I have been playing with my Jesus JT / charger

It took a while but I got it charging again

One thing I observed many times .......when you add a larger cap to the base resistor more current flows

I was thinking that larger current flow per pulse is a good thing for a charger .

I tried adding 3uF to the tank

At high power settings I can not get it to charge .

When I cranked the resistance up high enough that the current from my battery read 0 the I noticed that the voltage of my battery was going up .
I would say that it is going up several times faster than it was last night .

The output of the secondary on my JT is 0
I left the LED in the original JT spot to help see what was going on ...it is flashing maybe twice a second ........ it is irragular but clearly speeding up as the battery voltage goes up .

I just noticed something.
I said that the output on my secondary was 0
Then I noticed that my 5 LEDs were still connected .
The meter I use for my output has a high/low function
The high without the LEDs was 3.7 V the low was .01 V
There was no light at all from the LEDs

Nice work! I am seeing the exact same thing. My leds are flashing and my meter is going nuts. The battery is charging fast and all you need to do is increase the resistance.

I have been running a week now :) With my LLA1 setup and it seems that from the time I first posted my success to now quite a few people are doing the same thing as my design.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 30, 2009, 04:04:53 PM

Charger /JT update

I just tried adding a 5MFD run cap to my tank
I was able to get one of my LMs going .
Although it is not quite charging it is running with very little power
I am lighting my 60 diode array . it is not bright but it is lit up .
The battery current is only .03A
It has taken between .09A and .14A to light this array with a "normal "
JT

I wonder if I have something wrong with my setup
I tried to see if I could get just a little more out of it by removing the original JT LED my array went out The current dropped to .01A

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 30, 2009, 04:13:31 PM

@Gary

You need to keep the load at a constant rate in regards to supplied voltage. I added a rheostat to one pickup coil and can adjust for the best load. Woks great! The key is you need a certain draw to get the charging effects.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 30, 2009, 05:01:38 PM

Quote from: altrez on May 30, 2009, 03:53:27 PM
Nice work! I am seeing the exact same thing. My leds are flashing and my meter is going nuts. The battery is charging fast and all you need to do is increase the resistance.

I have been running a week now :) With my LLA1 setup and it seems that from the time I first posted my success to now quite a few people are doing the same thing as my design.

-Altrez

Altrez

I must have missed some posts
I don't remember reading much about your LLA1
Can you post a link to some of your posts about it ?

My description of my LM1 is reply 5749 that is back on page 575 if your pages are the same as mine .

I have been running my LM for about an hour now .
I added 1 extra LM in series with the LEDs
The primary added about 1 V to the output.
The battery voltage has only lost .003V in an hour .
I would add another coil or 2
I am sure that I could get it charging .........but all my alligator clips are tied up in the charger part of the circuit
I guess I am going to wire it up on a circuit board

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 30, 2009, 05:10:44 PM

Quote from: altrez on May 30, 2009, 04:13:31 PM
@Gary

You need to keep the load at a constant rate in regards to supplied voltage. I added a rheostat to one pickup coil and can adjust for the best load. Woks great! The key is you need a certain draw to get the charging effects.

-Altrez

Altrez

I am not exactly sure what you mean by that.
A rheostat on the pickup coil? what else is it connected to ?

With my coils there has to be a load being driven
With no current to the load there are no pulses to tap .

I can see how controling the load would be good .....but not sure what to hook it to .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 30, 2009, 05:13:11 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on May 30, 2009, 05:01:38 PM
Altrez

I must have missed some posts
I don't remember reading much about your LLA1
Can you post a link to some of your posts about it ?

My description of my LM1 is reply 5749 that is back on page 575 if your pages are the same as mine .

I have been running my LM for about an hour now .
I added 1 extra LM in series with the LEDs
The primary added about 1 V to the output.
The battery voltage has only lost .003V in an hour .
I would add another coil or 2
I am sure that I could get it charging .........but all my alligator clips are tied up in the charger part of the circuit
I guess I am going to wire it up on a circuit board

gary

I am not sure where I posted the description lol. It was on monday so its not as far back as yours! It seems like we are about on the same path. I have been running 1 week at this point.

On the same battery's. I have 3 battery's on the LLA1 two constantly charging and one powering the system. It takes two battery's to keep the system in a loop. One powering the system and one charging so when the one powering drains down it can be swapped out.

The third battery is to do work out side of the system. For example you can use it to power a fuji mod and when it drains you simply put it back in the charging system.

I have added caps to collect even more power.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 30, 2009, 05:38:20 PM

Quote from: altrez on May 30, 2009, 05:13:11 PM
I am not sure where I posted the description lol. It was on monday so its not as far back as yours! It seems like we are about on the same path. I have been running 1 week at this point.

On the same battery's. I have 3 battery's on the LLA1 two constantly charging and one powering the system. It takes two battery's to keep the system in a loop. One powering the system and one charging so when the one powering drains down it can be swapped out.

The third battery is to do work out side of the system. For example you can use it to power a fuji mod and when it drains you simply put it back in the charging system.

I have added caps to collect even more power.

-Altrez

Altrez

I remember now

You are the one with the empty voltage

:)

If I remember right you had some videos .....that would be why I don.t know the details

Where did you put those caps you added ?

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 30, 2009, 06:19:18 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on May 30, 2009, 05:38:20 PM
Altrez

I remember now

You are the one with the empty voltage

:)

If I remember right you had some videos .....that would be why I don.t know the details

Where did you put those caps you added ?

gary

yep that was me :) I added them to pickup coils with diode bridges. I also added a small ceramic cap to the battery. It made a huge difference.

Hows your tests going?

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 30, 2009, 08:07:13 PM

Quote from: altrez on May 30, 2009, 06:19:18 PM
yep that was me :) I added them to pickup coils with diode bridges. I also added a small ceramic cap to the battery. It made a huge difference.

Hows your tests going?

-Altrez

Altrez

My circuit is charging again
I left it for a couple hours and when I came back the battery was .01 lower .. I I looked around and found that the 2 diodes connected to the emitter came apart ......

I have fixed it readjusted it ....... it seems to be charging again .

I am going to try to get one on a circuit board tonight .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 30, 2009, 09:30:31 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 30, 2009, 01:11:38 AM
@ Artic_Knight

This is a common two layer solenoid coil. I do not understand why you call it a "tesla bifiliar". Using uncommon names for common things only creates confusion as to what you are talking about.

Great drawing. It clearly shows what you are talking about.

i call it a tesla bifiliar because tesla had the first coils in patents resembling this coil thus tesla is the originator. when he wanted it to radically enhance the voltage like a step up transformer he made the tesla bifiliar pancake coil which used 2 wires in parallel spiraling toward the center, now if he wound a round motor coil or transformer coil like we are doing he had them in parallel so that the coils alternated ababab like that. this increased the magnetic capacitance of it. now if it was layered IE more than one wraps on top of each other than he would stack coil a on top of coil a and coil be on coil b.

tesla as far as im aware is the inventor of this coil and to this date i have not personally seen or heard of a better magnetic generating coil. it however has its short falls. if used as a pickup coil it restricts the voltage and allows only amperage to be seen. this in the use of a joule thief is not very effective and i am currently running a series of experiments to find the best mix for this cause.

hope to have more for you soon

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 30, 2009, 09:48:37 PM

@ @ Artic_Knight

First I would like to apologize for my bad mood yesterday. I am familiar with the type of coil you are talking about. But I have not used one. I assume you have found this to be better than a solenoid coil. Can you provide any data to show why you think it is better? It would seem to me that it would not be very useful in a JT since it seems that the only way to use ferrite to increase the inductance would be to put the coil on top of the ferrite. But that would mean that a lot of the magnetic flux would be lost as opposed to a toroid where the flux is all confined inside the toroid. Sorry again about my comments, but people always coming up with alternate names for everything is one of my pet peeves.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 30, 2009, 10:06:28 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on May 30, 2009, 08:07:13 PM
Altrez

My circuit is charging again
I left it for a couple hours and when I came back the battery was .01 lower .. I I looked around and found that the 2 diodes connected to the emitter came apart ......

I have fixed it readjusted it ....... it seems to be charging again .

I am going to try to get one on a circuit board tonight .

gary

My tests after a week are interesting. I have went past the starting voltage however its lower every other time. I am not sure why and I believe it will even out to a standard charge rate / voltage. I am fairly sure the battery's are being conditioned in such a way that they will preform better and better each charge. I need a few months of tests to be sure.

Also I plan to buy a new fluke with USB support so I can monitor the charge 24/7

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 31, 2009, 12:44:56 AM

Quote from: xee2 on May 30, 2009, 09:48:37 PM
@ @ Artic_Knight

First I would like to apologize for my bad mood yesterday. I am familiar with the type of coil you are talking about. But I have not used one. I assume you have found this to be better than a solenoid coil. Can you provide any data to show why you think it is better? It would seem to me that it would not be very useful in a JT since it seems that the only way to use ferrite to increase the inductance would be to put the coil on top of the ferrite. But that would mean that a lot of the magnetic flux would be lost as opposed to a toroid where the flux is all confined inside the toroid. Sorry again about my comments, but people always coming up with alternate names for everything is one of my pet peeves.

no worries xee2

well it seems your thinking of the flat pancake version. im using teslas other version which was wound ababab and when a ended it was connected to the beginning of b. this can be wound around a torroid but its tedious and if the coil is large with thin wire its a royal pain in the you know what to keep the wires from criss crossing. i think its better because of the way in which it acts like a single coil step up step down transformer. also it creates a larger magnetic field ususally which if your thinking what i was thinking no it doesnt create OU in itself. sorry guys.

@all
i have attached a pic of what i believe to be the best configuration. please be mindful everyone will need to tweek it to suit thier particular resistances in the torroids wires caps etc to get it at peak. i have not had the time to test it but from what i have seen this should do the trick. i will let you know once i have tested this as im almost done creating the coils.

@@ just to throw my 2c at the world. you have to be careful when you have a solution that threatens any "field of business" like energy industry Air conditioning industry etc. things just dont get adopted when many many peoples jobs and lots and lots of income are affected for both the workers and businesses alike! and we know that the oil industries have made record profits in the recent years so something like OU if it was discovered would have to be released very carefully. lets face it your talking about millions of jobs! if you did have it and if you were able to get past all of the BS and people trying to stop you, lets say you just released it over night to the world what would happen? the world would have the largest market crash we have ever seen. record numbers of people would be without work and many many people both business and employee alike would be out a paycheck. money does make the world go round and something to this magnitude would have to be adopted gradually so the market has time to adjust.

@ interesting detail

if anyone wants to look at significantly lowering their energy bills i have a quick and easy solution. albeit a tad bit pricey. cool your home with geothermal. the temp stays low enough to cool without the need of compressors. just run a small effecient fan over a heat transfer unit with curculating water from the ground. you can do this with a 6 volt water pump from an aquarium if there is no air in the line. the pipe can be ordered for cheep but it requires trenches or deep holes. check out geothermal but remember your only circulating cold water not buying a heat exchanger unit ;)

to heat your home have solar hot water collecters heat water in a bladder insulated and stored underground, use radiant floor heating and make sure that you have a instant hot water heater (one faucet version) tied to the incoming hot water and set for a low temp. if you have a good termal mass (cement floor) it will store and release heat very effectively and the water temp should never need to be above 90f to heat your home to 70-80f

good stuff, and all of it should be able to run for several days off of a 12v car battery. that in turn can be charged by a 20 watt solar panel! talk about cheep. can you say free?

@ NOTES

this curcuit has not been tested and will need some minor tweeks mostly concerning the number of turns maybe the parts could be optimized not sure. when i say 20 turn bifiliar i mean 20 total turns, if you wound this with a folded wire only make 10 turns then when you combine the 2 coils it becomes 20 turn bifiliar. try not to cross your wires as this will most likely have a negative impact on performance. unfortunately even tho the bifiliars have wonderful traits they do not make good high voltage pick up coils so a regular coil was added for the usful output. the negative terminal on the coil may need to go through the led to the emmiter of the transistor. i adopted this image from previous posts and kept the current connection assuming it would work but may need to be altered. this should provide better results when using the tesla bifiliars.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 31, 2009, 01:56:30 AM

@Resonanceman
IR LEDs

Quote from: resonanceman on May 29, 2009, 11:38:36 AM
I bought a UV LED light a whille back
I was running 2 of the white versions and ended up powering them with 15 V rather than 12 . they both stopped working.
I would love to see how a UV JT would work with them
gary

Hello Gary,
Firstly, running a LED with 12-15v is sure to make the LEDs feel very sad, ha ha.
However since IR LEDs carn't be seen working, I would suggest that you put a "white" LED in series with them, if the white LED lights up, then you can be about 95% sure the IR LED is working also.

A safety note here also, never look into a IR LED, to see if it is working, as IR radiation can enter the eye and cause problems.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 31, 2009, 02:11:14 AM

Jim:

Thanks for your kind words you posted on my youtube video of the 48" tube lighting from the EB/JT. As you saw, I was taking a bit of a beating from that guy that says he is an EE who said I could never light anything from an EB because they only put out microvolts at best. I wonder how he thinks I lit the tube in the video?

Oh well, thanks for the support mate. I really do appreciate it.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: petersone on May 31, 2009, 02:37:08 AM

Hi TheNOP
Reference to the vid that Mk1 posted http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQdcwDCBoNY&feature=channel_page,although the numbers maybe off,does not the fact that the bulb on the secondary is lit,and the bulb on the primary is not lit, show ou,if not what am I missing.Assuming no trickery.
peter

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 31, 2009, 07:14:28 AM

Quote from: petersone on May 31, 2009, 02:37:08 AM
Hi TheNOP
Reference to the vid that Mk1 posted http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQdcwDCBoNY&feature=channel_page,although the numbers maybe off,does not the fact that the bulb on the secondary is lit,and the bulb on the primary is not lit, show ou,if not what am I missing.Assuming no trickery.
peter

Peter,

I am a bit lost on this experiment. Perhaps you can help me to understand how this would be OU? It looks like magnetic inductance to me?

I have been playing with the idea on my JT setup. If you hit the right frequency on a coil a secondary coil will pick up some power. I just do not see what its ou?

Is the power coming from the function generator he is using?

Thanks!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 31, 2009, 07:37:08 AM

@all

I have another question. In the video he talks about a resonantly tuned LC circuit and yet he fails to mention how he got it resonantly tuned?

It looks like he simply took some wire warped it around a ferrite rod attached one end to a cap and then the other. Clipped on a function generator and adjusted the function generator until enough current was pushed in the wire to light the bulb?

At that point he added a different coil that looked to be wrapped the exact same and moved it close enough so that it would couple?

Perhaps I am totally lost here and I feel really dense. I would just like to understand how you make a resonantly tuned coil? Is it so simple that I am over complicating it?

I understand that by changing the frequency on the coil you make it resonate what I do not understand is how that is OU?

Thank you all so much!!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: petersone on May 31, 2009, 08:13:50 AM

Hi Altrez
I'm lost also,but as I understand it,the power is from the frequency generator. He said that the 2 coils with caps were tuned to the same frequency,but they looked completely different,it looks to me to be ou,but not to you,I'm only going by the bulbs,one is not getting enough to light it,but the other is.The only way I can think of that would make that happen is if the first bulb is not getting enough voltage,but transformer action on the second bulb ups the voltage to light it,I am far from an expert,so have probably got it wrong.
peter

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 31, 2009, 09:31:34 AM

@ altrez

Quote from: altrez on May 31, 2009, 07:37:08 AM
I understand that by changing the frequency on the coil you make it resonate what I do not understand is how that is OU?

It is not OU. The guy claiming that it is OU just does not understand what he is doing.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on May 31, 2009, 09:49:22 AM

Quote from: xee2 on May 31, 2009, 09:31:34 AM
@ altrez
It is not OU. The guy claiming that it is OU just does not understand what he is doing.

like i said nuttin too special bout resonance alone ...

lol

2 freq a short pulse close to the natural running freq... with a verry quick off time ...

be it mechanical switching transistor fet or whatever it is your rinninggggg cut pulse ...

resonance works cuz ... the KICK... :D

shift coil is a tuned coil 1-1 mass to mass this will develop a larger kick .. catch the first one .... dump it back in ...

i cant wate to see there proof it dont work ... lol ;)

discoveryies best eh !! lol ;)

ist!

in some digging round i found a patten of intrest ...

no words ... just a pic ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 31, 2009, 05:54:19 PM

Quote from: xee2 on May 31, 2009, 09:31:34 AM
@ altrez
It is not OU. The guy claiming that it is OU just does not understand what he is doing.

This might sound silly but what exactly is OU?

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on May 31, 2009, 06:04:01 PM

@altrez Ou can be as simple as running ayour Jt on 1.2 volts drawing 10 ma and outputting 1.3 volts at 11 ma . that is over your unity or over what you started out with .Someone here can take this simple Ou and caluclate the COP of this threoretical circuit and give you a number of how much this would be OU .
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 31, 2009, 06:04:47 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on May 31, 2009, 12:44:56 AM
im using teslas other version which was wound ababab and when a ended it was connected to the beginning of b.

...

also it creates a larger magnetic field ususally which if your thinking what i was thinking no it doesnt create OU in itself.

i once made the mistake to say this, and later prouve to myself it is not.

the field strenght is as big as if it was a single coil of same length, coil a + coil b.
bifilar 10 turns + 10 turns mag field = single coil of 20 turns mag field.

what a bifilar does is lower the self inductance of the coils and enhance the capacitance.

Quote from: petersone on May 31, 2009, 02:37:08 AM
Hi TheNOP
Reference to the vid that Mk1 posted http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQdcwDCBoNY&feature=channel_page,although the numbers maybe off,does not the fact that the bulb on the secondary is lit,and the bulb on the primary is not lit, show ou,if not what am I missing.Assuming no trickery.
peter

there is no trickery in what he show.

first
i don't have a sound card in this computer, so what he claim, i don't know.
what he say don't interfere with what i see in his video and what i know of such experiments.
while my experiences may not be with the exact same coil's turns, frequency and caps, i can say for sure that the same rules/effects/phenomenas still applies.

at least it is not him that play a trick on you.
it is your own mind that is tricking you.
well..., this is what i assume because i know that peoples in general have problems to see a current flow in what appear to be an open circuit.
the same is true for closed circuits, the current flow path might not always be obvious.

what is happening is that at the proper frequency one of the coil = 0 impedence and the current flow way more easily in it then in the other coil.
the caps are the other side of the circuit, not the wire going back to the signal generator.

those caps could also not be there and the parasitic capacitance of the coils whould be enough.
but in that case the resonence frequency would be much higher.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 31, 2009, 06:06:25 PM

Quote from: electricme on May 31, 2009, 01:56:30 AM
@Resonanceman
IR LEDs

Hello Gary,
Firstly, running a LED with 12-15v is sure to make the LEDs feel very sad, ha ha.
However since IR LEDs carn't be seen working, I would suggest that you put a "white" LED in series with them, if the white LED lights up, then you can be about 95% sure the IR LED is working also.

A safety note here also, never look into a IR LED, to see if it is working, as IR radiation can enter the eye and cause problems.

jim

Jim

I thought for sure that I had a link to the LED light I was talking about ...... here it is

http://www.besthongkong.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=UV+mr+16&osCsid=9555530c4f0e22c8544160f961af0560&x=12&y=5

This light is designed to run at 12 V AC or DC
Like a florescent blacklight it is easy to see that it is on.
It does not look bright , it looks light purple

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 31, 2009, 06:24:10 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 31, 2009, 06:04:01 PM
@altrez Ou can be as simple as running ayour Jt on 1.2 volts drawing 10 ma and outputting 1.3 volts at 11 ma . that is over your unity or over what you started out with .Someone here can take this simple Ou and caluclate the COP of this threoretical circuit and give you a number of how much this would be OU .
Gadget

Humm very interesting. Has anyone made such a device that can be easily replicated? I have been working with my JT all week and it is still on the same set of battery's. And I can still charge caps. For example I have a 16v 3300 uF electrolytic cap that I have charged up to 5 volts each time I swap the source battery with the charge battery.

How much energy is in the cap? And if I did not discharge the cap with each cycle would it fill up completely?

Thanks!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 31, 2009, 07:15:26 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on May 31, 2009, 12:44:56 AM
no worries xee2

well it seems your thinking of the flat pancake version. im using teslas other version which was wound ababab and when a ended it was connected to the beginning of b. this can be wound around a torroid but its tedious and if the coil is large with thin wire its a royal pain in the you know what to keep the wires from criss crossing. i think its better because of the way in which it acts like a single coil step up step down transformer. also it creates a larger magnetic field ususally which if your thinking what i was thinking no it doesnt create OU in itself. sorry guys.

@all
i have attached a pic of what i believe to be the best configuration. please be mindful everyone will need to tweek it to suit thier particular resistances in the torroids wires caps etc to get it at peak. i have not had the time to test it but from what i have seen this should do the trick. i will let you know once i have tested this as im almost done creating the coils.

@@ just to throw my 2c at the world. you have to be careful when you have a solution that threatens any "field of business" like energy industry Air conditioning industry etc. things just dont get adopted when many many peoples jobs and lots and lots of income are affected for both the workers and businesses alike! and we know that the oil industries have made record profits in the recent years so something like OU if it was discovered would have to be released very carefully. lets face it your talking about millions of jobs! if you did have it and if you were able to get past all of the BS and people trying to stop you, lets say you just released it over night to the world what would happen? the world would have the largest market crash we have ever seen. record numbers of people would be without work and many many people both business and employee alike would be out a paycheck. money does make the world go round and something to this magnitude would have to be adopted gradually so the market has time to adjust.

@ interesting detail

if anyone wants to look at significantly lowering their energy bills i have a quick and easy solution. albeit a tad bit pricey. cool your home with geothermal. the temp stays low enough to cool without the need of compressors. just run a small effecient fan over a heat transfer unit with curculating water from the ground. you can do this with a 6 volt water pump from an aquarium if there is no air in the line. the pipe can be ordered for cheep but it requires trenches or deep holes. check out geothermal but remember your only circulating cold water not buying a heat exchanger unit ;)

to heat your home have solar hot water collecters heat water in a bladder insulated and stored underground, use radiant floor heating and make sure that you have a instant hot water heater (one faucet version) tied to the incoming hot water and set for a low temp. if you have a good termal mass (cement floor) it will store and release heat very effectively and the water temp should never need to be above 90f to heat your home to 70-80f

good stuff, and all of it should be able to run for several days off of a 12v car battery. that in turn can be charged by a 20 watt solar panel! talk about cheep. can you say free?

@ NOTES

this curcuit has not been tested and will need some minor tweeks mostly concerning the number of turns maybe the parts could be optimized not sure. when i say 20 turn bifiliar i mean 20 total turns, if you wound this with a folded wire only make 10 turns then when you combine the 2 coils it becomes 20 turn bifiliar. try not to cross your wires as this will most likely have a negative impact on performance. unfortunately even tho the bifiliars have wonderful traits they do not make good high voltage pick up coils so a regular coil was added for the usful output. the negative terminal on the coil may need to go through the led to the emmiter of the transistor. i adopted this image from previous posts and kept the current connection assuming it would work but may need to be altered. this should provide better results when using the tesla bifiliars.

Artic_Knight

There might be some problems with your Geo Thermal plans
Around here ground temp is around 55 degrees .
That IS cool enough to get a little cooling from .
The problem is it is not cool enough to do any dehumidifyng .
The coils of a normal air conditioner run close to 32 degrees . At that temp they dehumidify very well

A problem with storing hot water in an underground bladder is ground water .......the problem is ground water flows ...... flowing water is VERY good at carrying heat away .

Your idea for your Tesla bifilar JT is interesting
Are you sure that it causes problems if the wires get crossed ?
With the normal bifilar JT I have used both straight wires and twisted pairs ....I did not notice any real difference .

If a few twists do not matter .......it becomes very easy to make
Start with 4 wires twist the end together so you can wrap them as one .
Wrap 20 turns with all 4 wires at once .
Connect the start of 2 of those wires to there own ends
Connect the end of the third wire with the start of the 4th .

I have tried bifilar secondarys ...... I got nothing out of them .........
I have tried connecting extra coils .......sometimes connecting the ends of these secondarys together makes my LEDs brighter .
IF this does make a stronger magnetic field it could be a big improvement

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 31, 2009, 09:23:21 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on May 31, 2009, 07:15:26 PM
Artic_Knight

There might be some problems with your Geo Thermal plans
Around here ground temp is around 55 degrees .
That IS cool enough to get a little cooling from .
The problem is it is not cool enough to do any dehumidifyng .
The coils of a normal air conditioner run close to 32 degrees . At that temp they dehumidify very well

A problem with storing hot water in an underground bladder is ground water .......the problem is ground water flows ...... flowing water is VERY good at carrying heat away .

Your idea for your Tesla bifilar JT is interesting
Are you sure that it causes problems if the wires get crossed ?
With the normal bifilar JT I have used both straight wires and twisted pairs ....I did not notice any real difference .

If a few twists do not matter .......it becomes very easy to make
Start with 4 wires twist the end together so you can wrap them as one .
Wrap 20 turns with all 4 wires at once .
Connect the start of 2 of those wires to there own ends
Connect the end of the third wire with the start of the 4th .

I have tried bifilar secondarys ...... I got nothing out of them .........
I have tried connecting extra coils .......sometimes connecting the ends of these secondarys together makes my LEDs brighter .
IF this does make a stronger magnetic field it could be a big improvement

gary

all of the geothermal heating and cooling technologies are regularly used very effectively, i did a lot of research on the subject and even though tv cannot always be trusted many of these projects albiet not used in this way were telivised. the key with the bladder is that its roughly the size of a septic tank. a open pit is dug and the bladder burried, the bladder itself is insulated as well as the ground providing insulation/risidual heat. if you reasearch underground homes you will see that heat gained in the summer is sequestered into the earth itself later to be used during the winter. what heat the insulated bladder leaks will be regained should the temp drop and if this does not happen then the heat will reach a peak and will start to create resistance to further losses, this is ofcourse what is lost that the insulation cannot prevent which will be minimal. so there is no running water where the bladder is burried.

for the tesla bifiliar it is the coils position where coil a is next to coil b that it gets its effects. if coil a is next to coil a then you begin to cancel some of the benifits.

my initial test of one small regular coil and one large bifiliar failed, the led would not light, i do not think this has any relation to the curcuit and its wiring and i will double check shortly then i will begin to wind the second bifiliar and test the drawing i provided with 2 bifiliars and one regular. when i have my results i will post. my guess is that it should reduce load but this circuit has been anything but predictable for me when it comes to coils. this is precisely why i like it as it hopefully will provide a better insight to magnetism.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 31, 2009, 09:44:35 PM

Quote from: altrez on May 31, 2009, 06:24:10 PM
Has anyone made such a device that can be easily replicated?

not to my knowledge.
claims, yes.
there plenty said to be suppressed, fake and some that no one have been able to be replicate.

then you have devices like the jts and the EB that are not concidered as OU but do work...

Quote from: resonanceman on May 31, 2009, 07:15:26 PM
There might be some problems with your Geo Thermal plans
Around here ground temp is around 55 degrees .
That IS cool enough to get a little cooling from .
The problem is it is not cool enough to do any dehumidifyng .
The coils of a normal air conditioner run close to 32 degrees . At that temp they dehumidify very well

at 55 degrees with ambiant air at 78 you will have enough temperature difference to dehumidify a house in no time.
the moisture stick to a colder surface and a few degrees difference is enough.

i have a car radiator connected to my house water supply in my basement.
during summer its temperature is ~65 degrees.
you won't beleive how much moisture stick to its sides during summer.
i had to put a pickup tray under it to redirect the water drop to the drain.
just a small blow is enough, if the blower is to fast, the moisture won't stay on it.
it waiste a bit of water, but it cost way less then an air conditioner.
i am restricting the flow to 1~3 gallons per hours.

Quote from: resonanceman on May 31, 2009, 07:15:26 PM
A problem with storing hot water in an underground bladder is ground water .......the problem is ground water flows ...... flowing water is VERY good at carrying heat away .

on the fly usage and heavy insulation of the storage tank are require.
but, in some countries it is a heat pump that will be required, as the winter sun will not be enough.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 31, 2009, 09:56:16 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on May 31, 2009, 09:44:35 PM

then you have devices like the jts and the EB that are not concidered as OU but do work...

Do you happen to know of a list of other devices that are like the JT and EB? That are cool and do produce some interesting results like the JT and EB? I am very new to this field of study and I would like to have a bunch of different things to work on:)

Thank you!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 31, 2009, 10:03:17 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on May 31, 2009, 09:44:35 PM
at 55 degrees with ambiant air at 78 you will have enough temperature difference to dehumidify a house in no time.
the moisture stick to a colder surface and a few degrees difference is enough.

i have a car radiator connected to my house water supply in my basement.
during summer its temperature is ~65 degrees.
you won't beleive how much moisture stick to its sides during summer.
i had to put a pickup tray under it to redirect the water drop to the drain.
just a small blow is enough, if the blower is to fast, the moisture won't stay on it.
it waiste a bit of water, but it cost way less then an air conditioner.
i am restricting the flow to 1~3 gallons per hours.

on the fly usage and heavy insulation of the storage tank are require.
but, in some countries it is a heat pump that will be required, as the winter sun will not be enough.

very creative, and im sure it helps the water heating bills just a tad ;)

well the idea here is that it is more effecient to do radiant floor heating than any other heating method that i am currently aware of besides passive solar which if you want to go that way more power to ya! electric heaters and fuel based heaters have their obvious down sides but the point to note here is you are using hot water in a cement floor thermal mass that can be heated using any means which requires little temperature difference to comfortably heat an area, im sure you can find all the scientific data on this if your interested. cement also has a potentially little known fact that it wants to be 45-50f and if you heat it above this it has a tendancy to release this heat even if the air is warmer. this only works for a certain temperature difference before the cement starts to sequester heat instead. its a facinating subject.

i spent several months on reasearch for this data alone. i have compiled (mentally) the most effecient house. for instance did you know that ICF buildings or insulated concreate forms are rediculasely effecient and also resist practically all causes of destruction? if you built one it would be very resistant to tornadoes hurricanes earth quakes, nuclear radiation (nukes if detonated near it will obviously win ;) ) and the elements! they are typically reinforced with rebar or some form of iron support and if built to specification can support a cement roof which allows for a garden on the roof :) no more pesky wabbits gettin at them carrots! now gardening on a roof brings up other such challenges like the fact that the plants become dehumidified faster and the plants selected may or may not be able to tolorate the sun so creative farming comes to play. also there is a limit to what you can grow as a tree might be a bit problematic ;)

lets just say when the finances are in order i have a one stop shop for a home. i may never need to leave! if i continue to lower the electric bill then i will need less solar to power it. less battery backup if im off the grid.

as far as ground tems are concerned for the geothermal typical ground temps range from 45-55f 55f being the tropics. and this measurement is for 6ft and below where the proper job would be done. you can also opt for a well which i think is 100ft deep but i will stick to channels as that is something i can do myself. the more i do the less the cost and the quicker the unit pays for itself!

radiant floor heating utilizes infrared heating so there is no "hot air" to loose. dont get me wrong im sure the air also becomes heated by the IR however. this prevents cold and warm spots as the heat transferes through out the cement pad more evenly. the one downside to this is that if you do not build a insulated concrete slab but instead design to retrofit then you tend to loose some of the effeciencies.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on May 31, 2009, 10:15:54 PM

i wonder how effectively this JT or similiar curcuit could power a Peltier or Thermo Electric Cooler? i dont have one but if someone does and wants to play with it the idea is maybe we can make a super effecient Air Conditioning unit?

just a thought

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on May 31, 2009, 10:22:18 PM

@all

Ok here is some pics of my charger code named "LLA1" :). It is still running off the same battery's! I have also added a 3rd battery to charge to see if it would charge it. And well it did. I also have included a picture of the dead 3 rd battery after only being connected to the charging system for 2 hours powering a fugi mod thats running 70 leds and it ran for a full 6 minutes!!!

So I have what is very close to a self runner that also powers a load!

I have also setup a second test to replicate the results of the first build.

If anyone has any questions or can recommend any tests I should preform please let me know. I have a scope / LHR meter / MultiMeter.

Take Care,

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 31, 2009, 10:47:02 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on May 31, 2009, 10:15:54 PM
i wonder how effectively this JT or similiar curcuit could power a Peltier or Thermo Electric Cooler? i dont have one but if someone does and wants to play with it the idea is maybe we can make a super effecient Air Conditioning unit?

just a thought

Artic Knight

I have been thinking of that .
Here is a unit that seems to be pretty good price
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16657

I have several projects I need to work on first

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 31, 2009, 11:04:31 PM

@Jesus,

Don't be sorry about failing, you posted results with the very best of intensions.
Then you discovered it was a loose connection, and you put it right as soon as you discovered this, and you did not cover it up.

Jesus, a couple of years ago in the stubblefield forum I made a huge mistake, and it turned out to be a leaky earth system from my hotwater system, for a few days I thought I had made a big breakthrew, when I found out, I felt as silly as a goose.
But I did'nt hide this fact, I came clean, told everyone on the forum, and credability was back.

In fact I take my hat off to those people who make a mistake and are able to say they made one and have put it right.

I do look forward to reading your posts.
Your OK in my book Jesus, no problems.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on May 31, 2009, 11:47:13 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on May 31, 2009, 10:03:17 PM
very creative, and im sure it helps the water heating bills just a tad ;)

compaire to winter water heating it is still way less.
plus, during summer we use less heated water.
but i do save a lot on the electricity bill compaire to an ac and i get the same comfort.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 01, 2009, 12:08:41 AM

@ NOP:

Who says the EB is not OU? And why? If I can input 0 votls/amps/watts into a system and light a 48" tube then why is this not OU? I would be very interested in this answer. I have heard all of the galvanic reasons before but, to my satisfaction, they have been proven false. This was done by me, and many others in the EB topics.

Maybe now we are getting to the semantics of what is, and is not OU. This, of course, is a very sticky topic with no real consensus from what I can see. This is why I ask where your info comes from.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on June 01, 2009, 12:10:31 AM

Quote from: altrez on May 31, 2009, 09:56:16 PM
Do you happen to know of a list of other devices that are like the JT and EB? That are cool and do produce some interesting results like the JT and EB? I am very new to this field of study and I would like to have a bunch of different things to work on:)

"radiant" energy, peltier effect modules, solar cells and wind generators.

by "radiant" i mean rf + potential difference between the ground and a point above the ground.
wire antenna like.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 01, 2009, 12:22:06 AM

@Altrez,

Quote from: altrez on May 30, 2009, 10:06:28 PM
Also I plan to buy a new fluke with USB support so I can monitor the charge 24/7

-Altrez

Yes, I have been looking through catalogues here too.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 01, 2009, 12:45:52 AM

@Bill,

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 31, 2009, 02:11:14 AM
Jim:

Thanks for your kind words you posted on my youtube video of the 48" tube lighting from the EB/JT. As you saw, I was taking a bit of a beating from that guy that says he is an EE who said I could never light anything from an EB because they only put out microvolts at best. I wonder how he thinks I lit the tube in the video?

Oh well, thanks for the support mate. I really do appreciate it.

Bill

That's quite OK Bill.
I'm a bit old fashioned and direct when I see someone who is taking a caineing from an all knowing person who obviously didn't know what he was talking about.
When I saw he was hounding and baiting you, I just saw red, >:( no-one deserves that.

Everyone on this forum knows how sincere you are, and you can prove what you say you can do.
That's good enough for this kid.

Keep your chin up mate. ;D

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on June 01, 2009, 01:06:51 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 01, 2009, 12:08:41 AM
@ NOP:

Who says the EB is not OU? And why? If I can input 0 votls/amps/watts into a system and light a 48" tube then why is this not OU? I would be very interested in this answer. I have heard all of the galvanic reasons before but, to my satisfaction, they have been proven false. This was done by me, and many others in the EB topics.

Maybe now we are getting to the semantics of what is, and is not OU. This, of course, is a very sticky topic with no real consensus from what I can see. This is why I ask where your info comes from.

Bill

well, it can't be over unity since not even a unity is inputed in the process.
for me ou is: using energy to create more energy.
i am not talking about the energy used to make the materials here.
i am talking of a force applyed to create a greater force.

a heat pump is not a ou device, yet they have a cop of ~4
the energy is not created by the pump, it is already in the air.
the heat pump is only displacing it.
since you are not creating the energy it can't be ou.
beside heat pump there must surely be other devices able to displace energy while in operation.

for me, the EB fall into the same "free energy" category as the lemon or salt batteries.
except that the materials used seem not to be consume in the process, according to some.
i don't have an EB yet, so i only rely on reports on it.

no one will be able to achive overunity, ever.
that does not mean nothing can be accomplish to free ourself from the energies compagnies tho.
the jt is a proof of that to me.
what i am asking myself about it is: how much energy does something really need to work.

as you said, everyone have his own opignion on what is ou.
but who is right ?

ask Stefan, apply the EB for the ou price, see what will be the outcome.
price to be splited to the active member of the EB tread or to the one with the most efficient design.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on June 01, 2009, 01:31:21 AM

@bill
drevtoob is one of desertpiles sycophants.
just a heads up.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 01, 2009, 01:31:25 AM

@Resonanceman
Thankyou for this extra info.

Quote from: resonanceman on May 31, 2009, 06:06:25 PM
Jim

I thought for sure that I had a link to the LED light I was talking about ...... here it is

http://www.besthongkong.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=UV+mr+16&osCsid=9555530c4f0e22c8544160f961af0560&x=12&y=5

This light is designed to run at 12 V AC or DC
Like a florescent blacklight it is easy to see that it is on.
It does not look bright , it looks light purple

gary

I thought you was having trouble with just 1 LED, thats why I put forward a quick fix suggestion.
I went and took a look at the web address site, it is a very big LED array isn't it.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 01, 2009, 01:40:56 AM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on June 01, 2009, 01:31:21 AM
@bill
drevtoob is one of desertpiles sycophants.
just a heads up.

Wilby:

Ah, that makes a lot of sense now, thank you for the heads up.

@ Jim:

Thanks again for the support, I really appreciate it.

@ NOP:

Thanks for your reply. I think we can agree to disagree on what is and is not OU. I am not even sure I "know" what it is. But, thank you for leaving the cost of materials out of the equation, I think this is the correct way to look at it. The EB will not take the ou prize as it needs to make a lot more power output. But, you never know, maybe one day.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 01, 2009, 01:44:29 AM

@Artic_Night,
Your thoughts on the water Bladder being used as a heat resoivoir is good.

The University of St Lucia in Brisbane did a project to harness the cooler ground temperatures to cool one of their buildings. They dug a very long thin trench, some hundreds of meters, burried some 6" PVC or polythine pipe, then pumped water through it, the water picked up the cool from the earth, then it went back into the building, into a series of radiaters, which had fans behind them, then the wamer water was piped back the the ground pipe closed network.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on June 01, 2009, 02:04:02 AM

Quote from: TheNOP on June 01, 2009, 01:06:51 AMno one will be able to achive overunity, ever.

assumption

p.s. you can't create energy.
see i can make blanket assumptions too. ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mannix on June 01, 2009, 03:21:38 AM

Energy can and is converted from one form to another daily that we can see and have an agreed understanding.

The terms "Overunity" or "Free Energy" Require the user to NOT understand the forms.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 01, 2009, 05:36:03 AM

Quote from: Mannix on June 01, 2009, 03:21:38 AM
Energy can and is converted from one form to another daily that we can see and have an agreed understanding.

The terms "Overunity" or "Free Energy" Require the user to NOT understand the forms.

CONVERSION ...

0 THE LOVE GAME!!

IT IS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE MIX OF THE RIDDLES N TRICKS ...

HELLO MANNIX!! ;D

ELECTRICS TO MAGNETICS WITH THE KICK COMPOUNDED IN MAGNETIC FORM AFTER THE CONVERSION TOOK PLACE IN THE CAP!

IST

O YES THE PATTENDS RESIDE ON OU ...

O WELL !!

HEAR IS ANOTHER FORM OF CONVERSION ...

GO LIGHT YOUR BBQ!! ;) :D

HOW MIGHT THAT WORK ....

PRESSURE TO ELECTRICS ... HUMMMMM 8)

BTW TESLA STATES TIME IS GAINED!!

WHO KNOWS WHY?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 01, 2009, 06:51:19 AM

Quote from: TheNOP on June 01, 2009, 12:10:31 AM
"radiant" energy, peltier effect modules, solar cells and wind generators.

by "radiant" i mean rf + potential difference between the ground and a point above the ground.
wire antenna like.

Thank you! :)

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 01, 2009, 06:52:26 AM

Quote from: electricme on June 01, 2009, 12:22:06 AM
@Altrez,

Yes, I have been looking through catalogues here too.

jim

Please let me know if you run across any good deals:)

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 01, 2009, 06:57:17 AM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on May 31, 2009, 10:15:54 PM
i wonder how effectively this JT or similiar curcuit could power a Peltier or Thermo Electric Cooler? i dont have one but if someone does and wants to play with it the idea is maybe we can make a super effecient Air Conditioning unit?

just a thought

Do they not the need a lot of current to work? And what application would you use it for? I know heat sinks for PC but can other things be done with them?

Thanks!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Thaelin on June 01, 2009, 07:07:01 AM

Hi all:

I just did the resonance thing with idenical coils and caps. The input bulb was lit while not at res. When I hit that, the one bulb went out and the other came on. New cam is a POS so cant do a vid. Output volts was right in line with input volts. When put on a FWB, I got the subscribed output to the cap. Hence, 20v p/p input from the Signal gen, output to the cap was around 30.
Since that didn't feel right, I took the coils off and put the bridge directly across the s/g and got the standard out of .7 times input volts. That is in line with the RMS of the input. There was enough to make a nice pop at the cap when shorting it. Will have to see what the manual says for output ma's. Doubt that it could supply that kind of pop I got from the coil set.
Still something here doesn't jibe to me. So more to do and play with.

Now, since I am on the subject of resonance. I have a problem trying to find out how to calculate the ring down frequency of a parallel tank. What I am trying to find is if I fire the tank with one input cycle, how many cycles will it have internal before the time for the next input spike? I have ask this a few places and not one seems to know. Any help will be much appreciated. Some where on this forum I remember that being addressed but just too many places to look.

thaelin

Pirate, lets set a record here and take this thread over 1k pages ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: petersone on June 01, 2009, 08:40:32 AM

Hi thaelin
Pleased to see you doing tests on the resonate thing, it will be interesting to read your final conclusions,at fist glance,to me it looks like ou,not enough to light the first bulb,but plenty to light the second,but I know things aren't that simple.
peter

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on June 01, 2009, 12:03:05 PM

Quote from: altrez on May 30, 2009, 09:47:13 AM
Hey Man,

Do NOT give up!! You are close VERY close to your goal. I have noticed on my self charger that the connections have an important part to play and I do not mean just completing the circuit. I tried to make better connections and lost my oscillating effect that seems to be the reason for the charging of my battery's.

I think it has something to do with resistance and load on the circuit when matched with the frequency that the toroid is resonating at. Try to unsolder your connections and place small v-resistors on each one so that you can micro adjust. Also place a voltage regulator on your AA to tune the circuit.

Then you find the perfect setup for charging. However what I have noticed as a side effect that it will also charge my source battery I am not sure exactly way but it is very good!!! However once it gets to a certain level the circuit changes and needs to be readjusted.

Keep it up! And thank you so much for all the wonderful diagrams.

Take care!!!!

-Altrez

Thank you @altrez !
There is something among my experimental parts that always is trying to fool me and to make me think that I have something and after I post, It just disappear and let me feeling silly and looking like a fool.

Quote from: jeanna on May 30, 2009, 11:14:54 AM
Well, jesus,
That statement is the only failure I can see here.
I really mean it.
It takes courage to be willing to be wrong.
You have showed your courage many times in your willingness to risk being wrong.

You save others a lot of time and trouble when you publish your mistakes along with your successes.
To know that this sort of worked with a loose connection may be the clue you or someone else needs to make it really work.

Look up resinrat2's signature. I need to leave for the day so I cannot, but it is perfect about research and failures.

jeanna

Thank you Lady @jeanna !
I do admire the way you experiment with everything taking notes and sharing them.

Quote from: gadgetmall on May 30, 2009, 01:04:18 PM
A small history of Ou ...

Thank you @gadgetmall !
I could not do it this time and I feel ashamed because the failure was public. At least this time I did not get too euphoric and put a message on every topic that was on my replies to my posts page.
I must be more careful from now on.

Quote from: resonanceman on May 30, 2009, 03:31:15 PM
I have been playing with my Jesus JT / charger

It took a while but I got it charging again

...

Mine worked for about 4 days in a row, keeping the same voltage, and when I lighted the LED, the battery got discharged normally, then when I closed the loop with the diode it began charging happily and wihout fail. If I put another empty battery with at least 0.5 volts to start the oscillations, it would climb up to a better and higher voltage.
I just tried to improve it with a cap across the base resistor and...

Quote from: resonanceman on May 30, 2009, 11:47:26 AM
Jeasus

You are clearly confused about a few things here .

Edison tried over 2000 different filaments before he tried tungsten .
Some people would say that he failed 2000 times before he succeeded .
I do not see it that way .
Edison would not have succeeded if he had given up before he tried tungsten .
Edison didn't fail at all because he did not give up .
No one fails until they give up .
No on is a failure until they believe that they are less of a person because something they tried did not work out .

Jeasus
If you need to a break or need to move on that is fine
It is OK if your circuit is not perfect.

It worked great for me for hours yesterday .....then something changed and I could not get it charging again .
I so NOT see that as a failure .
There is just stuff going on with your circuit than we yet understand .
In any case ......... you have did a great job.
Your circuit has lots of possibilitys even if it never makes it to a full blown self charger.

gary

Thank @resonanceman !
I need some more patience and a better test equipment.

Quote from: altrez on May 30, 2009, 03:53:27 PM
Nice work! I am seeing the exact same thing. My leds are flashing and my meter is going nuts. The battery is charging fast and all you need to do is increase the resistance.
...
-Altrez

You are right! A loose connection produces a high resistance...

Quote from: electricme on May 31, 2009, 11:04:31 PM
@Jesus,

Don't be sorry about failing, you posted results with the very best of intensions.
Then you discovered it was a loose connection, and you put it right as soon as you discovered this, and you did not cover it up.

Jesus, a couple of years ago in the stubblefield forum I made a huge mistake, and it turned out to be a leaky earth system from my hotwater system, for a few days I thought I had made a big breakthrew, when I found out, I felt as silly as a goose.
But I did'nt hide this fact, I came clean, told everyone on the forum, and credability was back.

In fact I take my hat off to those people who make a mistake and are able to say they made one and have put it right.

I do look forward to reading your posts.
Your OK in my book Jesus, no problems.

jim

Thank you @electricme !
I also thought I had made a big breakthrew.
I will be more cautious the next time, before I post

Thank you @pirate for having this good topic running.
Thank you to all the well wishers on this forum and
Thank you @hartiberlin for allowing us to learn and experiment with the information within this forum.

@all

I will be more careful from now on and will not post carelessly.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 01, 2009, 12:04:41 PM

@ Thaelin & petersone

Resonant coupling is not something with easy calculations. But, I hope this will at least help in understanding why the input circuit bulb goes out. If you are familiar with resistive voltage dividers then this should be easy to understand. Note that when the coils are tightly coupled there is as much power in the coupled coil as in the input coil.

EDIT: Note that the volts in the boxes are across the resistors the arrows are pointing to.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: petersone on June 01, 2009, 12:12:06 PM

Hi xee2
Thank you for time to share your knowledge,I will read it some more,but I think basically you are saying,at resonance the juice is bypassing the first bulb? Thanks again.
peter

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on June 01, 2009, 12:15:59 PM

by the way i did some research on water and resonate frequencies and found that jenna was right and i was right. the 2.4-2.5 ghz frequencies is resonate for the water to obsorb energy as heat however jennas frequency of 42,800 is the actual resonate frequency for destruction of the water molecule. still its kinda odd that microwave ovens operate at the 2.4-2.5 ghz level and the ground is at the 2.4mhz level isnt it? maybe we should explore the 2.4mhz level and its relation to electricity and magnetism? i would do so myself if i had a scope. if someones bored they might want to set the freq generator to that (dont all scopes have one?) and play around :-p maybe 2.4mhz is near the resonate frequency of magnetism? and if so we can create a tidal wave of magnetism to harness :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 01, 2009, 12:18:46 PM

@ petersone

Quote from: petersone on June 01, 2009, 12:12:06 PM
Hi xee2
Thank you for time to share your knowledge,I will read it some more,but I think basically you are saying,at resonance the juice is bypassing the first bulb? Thanks again.
peter

No, I do not think bypassing is quite correct. It is more like the power is divided between the resonant circuit and the bulb. At resonance most of the power goes into coil. Off resonance most of the power goes into bulb.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 01, 2009, 12:52:04 PM

@ Thaelin & petersone

As far as OU, a resonant circuit can store energy much like a capacitor. To claim OU it would be necessary to add up all of the power that went into a coil and compare that to the power stored in the coil afterwards. The coil is no more of an OU device than a capacitor is. Comparing the power going into the coil in a single instant of time against the power accumulated over time is not a valid way to measure OU. The same is true for resonant circuits. They can store energy. To claim OU the total energy in must be compared to the total stored energy. Or measurements of input and output power need to be made simultaneously on a circuit operating in a steady state mode.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 01, 2009, 01:44:00 PM

@xee2

Dose the circuit consume less when the primary is in resonance ?

If yes then its a good thing , on step at a time .

Could that type of circuit have many secondaries , now those coil did not even have the same gauge , that may be where the mass to mass coil regardless of the turn ratio , comes in .

There are many ways to design things , some have to be more efficient,
but concerning the ou claims are made from the Grand master him self Stefan in the comments , so i guess he would like to read those and comment , well ...

Also you say its like a cap , then i think this is good , humm high freq turns into a cap , that we ca use , thanks again !

@Altrez

Nice work there , so i see a dummy type mode , so tell us more on the small toroid you use .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 01, 2009, 02:27:26 PM

@ Mk1

I am not sure just which circuits you are talking about. But, one parallel tuned circuit can couple to any number of other parallel tuned circuits. The power is divided like mutually coupled coils. If you are as old as me, you may remember tube radios had IF transformers which were just a tuned resonant parallel circuit at the output of one amp coupling to the tuned parallel resonant circuit at the input of the next amp. Millions of these were made and none of them were ever found to be OU.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 01, 2009, 03:50:48 PM

@xee2

The circuit in question is the one on the video with 2 resonant tuned coil .

I am interested in knowing how the resonant coil could be used , like in the following drawing.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 01, 2009, 04:19:24 PM

@ Mk1

Quote from: Mk1 on June 01, 2009, 03:50:48 PM
I am interested in knowing how the resonant coil could be used , like in the following drawing.

He says in video that current draw from generator is higher when out of resonance and that is also the case in my example.

I have no idea how you might use resonance in the circuit you posted.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 01, 2009, 07:03:11 PM

Quote from: electricme on June 01, 2009, 01:31:25 AM
@Resonanceman
Thankyou for this extra info.

I thought you was having trouble with just 1 LED, thats why I put forward a quick fix suggestion.
I went and took a look at the web address site, it is a very big LED array isn't it.

jim

Jim

I would not say that it is really big
It has 48 LEDs

I am not sure why you were thinking I was having trouble lighting just one LED
I am having problems because I am going my own way, following my own intuition .

I have tons of stuff I want to try ........I just can't see any way to get some of them done using toroids .......so I am learning about non toroid JTs
One of my LM coils will produce 350V without load
Driving my 60 LED array it reads between 30 and 50 V
The voltage of the original circuit of the light I got it from was 83 V

I have not found the right balance with the LM coils .......
I still have lots of stuff to try to get them up to speed.

On another subject ....... I tried to build a Jesus JT on a circuit board .
I want to try a one or 2 of them on real life stuff ......like charging other batterys .... My first attempt didn't work ......now I see that I put the second set of diodes in backwards . ..... I don't think I will get them changed tonight .......maybe tomorow .

It is no problem getting it to charge ....but it does seem to have a problem staying in charge mode .
Last night when I left I had been charging a battery .
When I started charging it it was .640 V It was .960 when I checked it today . ....... it had stopped charging . I readjusted the pot and it started charging again .

````````````````````````````````````````````````

Today I noticed something .
I had a 1uF cap in a regular JT (MK2 with a small secondary )
I also have 3 of my LM coils hooked to the secondary .
2 of the LMs have there primarys in series with the original JTs secondary.
The other LM has I made to create some flyback and divide the output into 2 different outputs .
I connected the 2 winding of that coil in parallel Like this it just happens to have enough inductance to function as a load for the circuit .
This coil also has a short winding on it that I used for feed back
I used the secondarys of both other coils for feedback to source ..
I used one diode for each feedback loop

I hope that is enough about the hardware .

I had checked a couple of things with this JT /coil setup
The last thing I checked was higher capacitance . .......so I had a 1uF cap in the tank
I was typing and it flashed every once in a while .
I thought I was wiggeling a loose connection .......but it kept flashing while I was reading posts .
maybe once every 2 or 3 seconds .
Then I turned the meter on my battery voltage back on.
The voltage had gone up .

I watched it ........ the voltage dropped as the LED came on .
then the LED would dim then go out .
Then the battery voltage would start to rise .
I added more caps .. I am not sure if I am getting more power with more caps .... but time will tell
ANyway ...... the voltage drops around .05V each time the LED lights up .
AFTER the LED goes out the battery voltage rises quickly then slows
The last .01 is slower .
Every few pulses it reads .01 higher than the previous reading just before the LED lights up again .
The charging seems to be slowing .......it is now taking more like 6 pulses before it goes up .01 V

As I was typing it changed modes .......now .... it looks like the voltage is high enough for the LED to stay on longer ...... it comes on and stays on a couple of seconds . The voltage does not go up when the LED is on .
It seems to me that this is a way to limit the max charge .

Raising the resistance got the number of pulses before a rise in voltage back down again .

I am thinking that if a resistor is selected to just start to light the LED .....then a discharged battery is put in its place it should charge strongly until the LED comes on steady .
It seems clear to me that the battery is slowly charging the cap until the base reached its turn on point .......the cap is then discharged .....and the cycle starts over .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 01, 2009, 08:33:21 PM

@Altrez
Looking for measuring equipment

Quote from: altrez on June 01, 2009, 06:52:26 AM
Please let me know if you run across any good deals:)

-Altrez

Hello Al, I usually buy the good equipment from either of these mobs here in Australia.
The following three have once a month specials, but you have to make enquiries to see if they actually will honour the yellow flyers, as I discovered a month ago.

DSE (Dick Smith Electronics) Jaycar, or Altronics.
DSE, Jaycar and Altronics, all three at times have "specials" in the Silicon Chip electronics magazine.

DSE = http://www.dicksmith.com.au :)
Jaycar = http://www.jaycar.com.au ;D
Altronics = http://www.altronics.com.au ;)

DSE has moved well away from electrical components except through their major stores, so I tend to go to Jaycar for components, Altronics for me is a pain as they don't have stock on shelves, (a bit like Tandy here) also the head honcho in Toowoomba tends to barge past his salesmen to seek out customers which I find intimmidating. ::)

Hope this helps.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 01, 2009, 08:39:22 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 01, 2009, 01:44:00 PM

@Altrez

Nice work there , so i see a dummy type mode , so tell us more on the small toroid you use .

Mark

Thank you Mark. As far as I know I am the only one who has setup this configuration so if anyone uses this setup in a charging system please give me credit :). It is basically a radiant energy receiver. By attaching one leg of a pickup coil you can tap into its power. Or you can amplify its power. I first posted about this around 200 or so pages back lol :)

I have been using this for a long time but just now got it to work well. when properly tuned it adds the voltage spikes from the field that is being pulsed / generated on the big toroid. It is very exciting stuff. This is just one of the ways I have been recovering excess energy from the JT and pumping it back into the system. For more charging effects.

If you look a this pick you can see it a bit more clearly. It has 4 wires or antennas that come from the small toroid that hove above the big toroid. It really works at least for me. It is hard to get tuned and I could not prove it until I got my scope. I have seen 50+ volt spikes of energy when it is tuned at the right spot above or beside the big toroid.

I have moved it away from the toroid and the spikes go down to almost nothing. At first I figured that I was just picking up AC spikes on the main pickup coil and in fact I am but this adds to the effect greatly. It might be a combination of things but i am still running on the same batters and charging a third and running a small load.

Give it a try and you will see that it works :)

Take Care,

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 01, 2009, 08:40:47 PM

Quote from: electricme on June 01, 2009, 08:33:21 PM
@Altrez
Looking for measuring equipment

Hello Al, I usually buy the good equipment from either of these mobs here in Australia.
The following three have once a month specials, but you have to make enquiries to see if they actually will honour the yellow flyers, as I discovered a month ago.

DSE (Dick Smith Electronics) Jaycar, or Altronics.
DSE, Jaycar and Altronics, all three at times have "specials" in the Silicon Chip electronics magazine.

DSE = http://www.dicksmith.com.au :)
Jaycar = http://www.jaycar.com.au ;D
Altronics = http://www.altronics.com.au ;)

DSE has moved well away from electrical components except through their major stores, so I tend to go to Jaycar for components, Altronics for me is a pain as they don't have stock on shelves, (a bit like Tandy here) also the head honcho in Toowoomba tends to barge past his salesmen to seek out customers which I find intimmidating. ::)

Hope this helps.

jim

Thank you Jim.. I will be on the look out. I plan to work 60 hours a week all this month so I should have some extra cash to buy a new meter.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on June 01, 2009, 09:25:58 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on June 01, 2009, 01:06:51 AM
well, it can't be over unity since not even a unity is inputed in the process.
for me ou is: using energy to create more energy.
i am not talking about the energy used to make the materials here.
i am talking of a force applyed to create a greater force.

a heat pump is not a ou device, yet they have a cop of ~4
the energy is not created by the pump, it is already in the air.
the heat pump is only displacing it.
since you are not creating the energy it can't be ou.
beside heat pump there must surely be other devices able to displace energy while in operation.

call it what you will but if it quacks i call it a duck.

in the case of the heat pump they say its 300% effecient (i think that figure is for geothermals) and i say anything over 100% is over unity. the only down side is i dont think the boys figured out how to tap it for raw current. or if they did the documents got sequestered in a vault somewhere. how can you say a unit has to be over 100% effecient and not aknowledge a unit that has made it even though it only deals in moving temperatures? if you move a electric force at over 200% effieciency from one battery to another is that not considered OU?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on June 01, 2009, 09:29:30 PM

Quote from: Mannix on June 01, 2009, 03:21:38 AM
Energy can and is converted from one form to another daily that we can see and have an agreed understanding.

The terms "Overunity" or "Free Energy" Require the user to NOT understand the forms.

is that the case or is OU getting more out than you put in? doesnt mean it doesnt come from energy somewhere just means you put in 1watt and get out 2 watts,... somehow along the way you picked up energy from another source that you were not supposed to but did, and thus it came from somewhere.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on June 01, 2009, 09:33:31 PM

Quote from: altrez on June 01, 2009, 06:57:17 AM
Do they not the need a lot of current to work? And what application would you use it for? I know heat sinks for PC but can other things be done with them?

Thanks!

-Altrez

well you could take to seperate closed loop radiators and put a Thermo electric cooler between them, one will make a area cold and the other hot. depending on if you want it cold or hot you may need to reverse the current and your good!

the problem with these devices is they consume many watts, some 10watt small modules some 80 watt larger modules. they are not as effecient as a compressor and thats why they have not been more widely accepted yet. if we can reduce the power required then that might give them a broader range of applications,

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 01, 2009, 09:48:16 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on June 01, 2009, 09:33:31 PM
well you could take to seperate closed loop radiators and put a Thermo electric cooler between them, one will make a area cold and the other hot. depending on if you want it cold or hot you may need to reverse the current and your good!

the problem with these devices is they consume many watts, some 10watt small modules some 80 watt larger modules. they are not as effecient as a compressor and thats why they have not been more widely accepted yet. if we can reduce the power required then that might give them a broader range of applications,

I noticed that using the Seebeck effect they generate power! to me that is really cool! I ordering one this weekend.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 01, 2009, 09:57:34 PM

@all

My friend the EE explained to me and showed me what he ment by empty voltage. To test we took a battery charged to 1.1 volt from my JT charging system. And also took a battery charged to 1.1 from a wall charger.

My battery ran 70 leds for less then 7 minutes and not very Bright. His ran for over 1 hour at what looked like full brightness before we stopped the test. He did say that it would work but it would never have as much charge as one that has been charged from the wall.

I said that may be true but I can keep going from my system and keep charging from the JT without needing to plug back into the wall.

He said that was untrue and that in 1 month no matter how much voltage I have pulsed through it the battery's would all be dead.

He then went off talking about laws of this and that.

I plan to prove him wrong the LLA1 is still humming right along :)

I will keep updating.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 01, 2009, 10:19:38 PM

[quote author=resonanceman link=topic=6123.msg183980#msg183980

I am thinking that if a resistor is selected to just start to light the LED .....then a discharged battery is put in its place it should charge strongly until the LED comes on steady .
It seems clear to me that the battery is slowly charging the cap until the base reached its turn on point .......the cap is then discharged .....and the cycle starts over .

gary
[/quote]

It turns out that it is not quite that simple

The LED does not exactly turn off with high capacitance in the tank It just blinks slower.

I put a charged battery in
Then I set the pot so that the voltage on the battery stayed the same for over 10 minutes .

THe old battery was .974 V when I started the test .
It is now 1.044 V
So far no need for readjustment

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 01, 2009, 10:53:32 PM

Quote from: altrez on June 01, 2009, 09:57:34 PM
@all

My friend the EE explained to me and showed me what he ment by empty voltage. To test we took a battery charged to 1.1 volt from my JT charging system. And also took a battery charged to 1.1 from a wall charger.

My battery ran 70 leds for less then 7 minutes and not very Bright. His ran for over 1 hour at what looked like full brightness before we stopped the test. He did say that it would work but it would never have as much charge as one that has been charged from the wall.

I said that may be true but I can keep going from my system and keep charging from the JT without needing to plug back into the wall.

He said that was untrue and that in 1 month no matter how much voltage I have pulsed through it the battery's would all be dead.

He then went off talking about laws of this and that.

I plan to prove him wrong the LLA1 is still humming right along :)

I will keep updating.

-Altrez

Alrtrz

Go for it

:)

I hope you teach him a lesson.

One concern
You said something about changing your batterys when they reach 1 V
What kind of batterys are they ?
The batterys I am using are 1.2 V but full charge is 1.3 to 1.4
If you are only charging to 1 V you are underccharging your batterys every time .........if the battery has any memory efffect ......the memory effect itself will prove your friend right .

Keep in mind that you ARE charging with higher than normal voltage .......so it seems to me that the battery voltage will lead the actual charge more than with a conventional charger .

SO ........I sugggest that you let your battterys charge longer .
WHen reconditoning Lead acid batterys the voltage goes up ...in the case of a car battery around 15V then the vlotage starts dropping as the internal resistance of the battery drops . ( this drop not big ..... only a volt or to ......to maybe 13,5 to 14 V )

I am not sure that your battery will react in a similar way .........but if they did ....... your friend may not only be wrong ....he may have his facts completely backwards .

```````````````````````````````

charger voltage 1.055 V no need for adjustments

tomorow I want to try to add the Jesus charger part to it .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 01, 2009, 11:15:09 PM

@Thaelin
Ohhhh yes, now you are getting closer

Quote from: Thaelin on June 01, 2009, 07:07:01 AM
Hi all:
Now, since I am on the subject of resonance. I have a problem trying to find out how to calculate the ring down frequency of a parallel tank. What I am trying to find is if I fire the tank with one input cycle, how many cycles will it have internal before the time for the next input spike? I have ask this a few places and not one seems to know. Any help will be much appreciated. Some where on this forum I remember that being addressed but just too many places to look.

thaelin

OK, I am up against this problem also, and there is a different answer for your JT, as to mine, but the answer is simalir to both or three.

As you know there are many differences between components, caps and resistors.
It takes a certain amount of time to fill a cap compared to a different value cap, then this alters again if the voltage to fill the cap goes higher or lower.

Then, do you want to fill the cap to the brim? if so, then the time to fill the cap will take much longer.
So some people take the parth of allowing the cap to fill to, say, a certain percentage (65%) and then use this amount of energy in the cap.

As a cap will discharge most of its energy in a split second (up to a point) then you can then go and recharge the cap and discharge it again and again and again, over and over.

To do this, bring in a 555 timer IC, there are pins on the side of the 555 which control the output to triger a transister to control the whole process, so making this automatic so to speak.

The output pin on a 555 IC is pin 3
so if you take part of this output "hi" or (+) and take it back to the reset pin 6 and 2 coupled together, via a resistor, you have a "feed back control".

Then there is a cap connected between them and (-) neg, then you have a "tank" circuit which you could call a Mark space Ratio to control the out put pulses at pin 3.

If the resistor is a adjustable one, then you can slow down or speed up the out streem of pulses.
eg if for arguments sake usa 500k pot, at 500k it would take forever to get 1 hi out at pin 3
but if it was a 10 ohms it would output a great streem of pulses at pin 3.
You can also alter this again by changing the cap.

@ Altrez
Here is what I mean about the TinyCAD

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on June 01, 2009, 11:23:53 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on June 01, 2009, 09:25:58 PM
call it what you will but if it quacks i call it a duck.

in the case of the heat pump they say its 300% effecient (i think that figure is for geothermals) and i say anything over 100% is over unity. the only down side is i dont think the boys figured out how to tap it for raw current. or if they did the documents got sequestered in a vault somewhere. how can you say a unit has to be over 100% effecient and not aknowledge a unit that has made it even though it only deals in moving temperatures?

like i said, everyone have their own idea of OU.
i view it as "over efficientcy" like you said, and according to Mannix, a heat pump can't be called OU because the "OU" energy source is know.

Quote from: Artic_Knight on June 01, 2009, 09:25:58 PM
if you move a electric force at over 200% effieciency from one battery to another is that not considered OU?

i have yet to see this with my own eyes.
all i have seen to date are wrong measurement/calculations and/or calculations that do not take time frame into account.

you can charge a 10F capacitor to 3000 volts from a 120 V DC source and it will take minutes to do so.

do you have an idea of how many amps will flow the instant you will short the cap ?
the amps flow will be way more then 10^6 amps in a fraction of second.
is this OU ?
to me, you have put 30000 watts in it, and you are discharging 30000 watts from it when you short it out.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 01, 2009, 11:48:01 PM

@Artic_Knight

Quote from: Artic_Knight on June 01, 2009, 12:15:59 PM
by the way i did some research on water and resonate frequencies and found that jenna was right and i was right. the 2.4-2.5 ghz frequencies is resonate for the water to obsorb energy as heat however jennas frequency of 42,800 is the actual resonate frequency for destruction of the water molecule. still its kinda odd that microwave ovens operate at the 2.4-2.5 ghz level and the ground is at the 2.4mhz level isnt it? maybe we should explore the 2.4mhz level and its relation to electricity and magnetism? i would do so myself if i had a scope. if someones bored they might want to set the freq generator to that (dont all scopes have one?) and play around :-p maybe 2.4mhz is near the resonate frequency of magnetism? and if so we can create a tidal wave of magnetism to harness :)

There are several frequencies that agitate the water molecule at resident frequencies 42,800 is just one of them.
Put an industrial piezo in the water tank, then if one hits the water molecule with a audio frequency with a hi powered audio amplifier, then at the same time with a DC higher voltage you have a separation between H2O. Take a look at the Ironheads forum on HHO, one also has to take into consideration the capatance of the whole setup as well.

Scopes do not usually have frequency generators, (although their inturnals do have them) they only display the frequency as seen by the probes on the screen, the result which was created by a frequency generator, ie a joule thief output.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 02, 2009, 05:00:58 AM

@all,
I just found a web site that just blew me away literally. ;D
The information on LEDs is awsome here, just what you can do with LEDs.

This chap has found a 100Watt LED module, which is actually an array of Star Luxon Leds, it needs a massive heatsink with a fan blower to get rid of the heat, now I wonder if our joulethief could make it run cooler? lol. It costs $500 australian

The output is to be seen to be believed, it can burn holes in stuff, it is brighter than a set of car 100watt headlights, this is the way of economy lightning. :D

Click on this to go to it http://tesladownunder.com/LEDs.htm

Then scroll to the bottom to see what a 2N3055 gets up to in the dark, ha ha ha, amazing stuff this

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Paul-R on June 02, 2009, 09:42:56 AM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on June 01, 2009, 09:29:30 PM
is that the case or is OU getting more out than you put in?

Yes. It means that YOU get more out than YOU put in. But it
is not that the extra is invented. It comes from a source not
clearly understood by most people and all schools Physics
teachers.

Check out the Nobel Physics prize for 1957 (difficult), Hal
Puthoff and quantum foam (fluctuations)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: weri812 on June 02, 2009, 10:07:10 AM

hello all

you can use the thermoelectric modules on a steirling motor

wer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on June 02, 2009, 10:59:22 AM

@resonanceman

You are having some success with the joule thief self charger.
I have not been able to put it to work again.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 02, 2009, 11:29:37 AM

@ All:

I am posting this here even though it has nothing to do with the JT circuits....yet. I need the advice of the smart folks here. Yesterday, I received my 650 Farad maxcap from Gadgetmall (Thanks Al) and that sucker is huge!! The polarity is clearly marked and there is a warning on the label not to reverse it. I installed it into a plastic waterproof container (tupperware) to make it weatherproof and hooked it to my Earth battery yesterday afternoon. Well, this morning I got up, got some coffee and decide to stick my meter on it just to see how it was doing. Here are the results:

+2.4 volts dc
-9.7 amps dc (This is on the 10 amp setting on my meter, not mA!)

I can't think of any reason that the polarity on the amp setting would be minus and the volts are plus. I have never seen anything like this before while working with the EB and supercaps, etc. If this -9.7 amps is usable given the reverse polarity, I will be able to run some great stuff from this but I am confused by this.

I tested it like 5 different times now and still get the same thing.

Without any supercaps at all, I was getting about +1.95 vdc and +10 mA's from just the EB.

Can someone tell me why this amp reading has a - sign in front of it and, will this affect my trying to use this power?

Thanks. These 650 caps from Al are really somethng and well worth the price he asks for them.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 02, 2009, 11:33:36 AM

I just had a thought. Do I need to install diodes between the EB and the maxcap to keep the power from flowing back into the EB once the levels are higher than the EB output levels? This might account for the - sign on the amp meter.

I mean, if the eb puts out 1.95 vdc and I have 2.4 vdc in the cap, what keeps that from flowing the other way back to the EB? Same with the amps?

I am really confused here. ***EDIT*** I have a bunch of 1N4001 and 1N4007's
from my Bedini stuff, would these be big enough for this? Could I put several in series if they are not? And, the anode (the silver stripe) goes toward the direction of flow right? Sorry for all of these questions.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 02, 2009, 01:20:13 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 02, 2009, 11:33:36 AM

Hi Bill,
I do not have an answer for you. Instead I have a place for inspiration and a good description of capacitors.

http://amasci.com/emotor/cap1.html (http://amasci.com/emotor/cap1.html)
That is Bill Beaty's explanation about it. Be sure not to miss the last 2 paragraphs.

Bill Beaty is an EE who has a wide acceptance for moving into a much bigger box. In his bio he says he went into Engineering instead of physics because his family needed him to bring home the bacon, so to speak, and not be looking for grants. (from my memory, sorry Bill Beaty, if that is not exactly correct.)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 02, 2009, 01:36:08 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on June 02, 2009, 10:59:22 AM
@resonanceman

You are having some success with the joule thief self charger.
I have not been able to put it to work again.

Jesus

Hi Jesus,
I wanted to mention this and this is the right opportunity.

If you were able to charge your battery from your set up even if it is not correct and even if it did come from a loose wire connection, that very thing may be what you need to explore.

Please tell us exactly where the loose connection was. Like even draw it on your circuit. It may be the very information we need. Perhaps there was an extra pulsing in that place which made more back emf in the right place etc.......
---
( For instance, my 2tier circuit has some very odd things going on. Only odd, because if all the wires were connected in a single loop the lights should be equally bright; but they are not. If pulling out "light A" makes one other light "light B" go out then why , if you reverse this and pull out light B does light A not go out?

I am sure there is a reasonable explanation, but it is not what you would expect to see at first glance. I believe it has to do with the inductor toroid being there and doing something at that point.)
---

I bet you have a circuit within a circuit that is doing something special with the main toroid inductor.

So, I would love to see a schematic of your "mistake with the loose wire".

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 02, 2009, 01:36:21 PM

Jeanna:

Thanks. I like Bill but have never seen that on capacitors before. Very interesting reading to be sure. I like his analogy as well. He is a good teacher.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 02, 2009, 01:45:29 PM

@pirate
Bill If you tried to read amps then your meter is fried on the amp scale . Its over 650 amps !!!!!!!!!! DO NOT TRY AND READ ACROSS IT WITH AN AMP METER unless you got one of those fancy GOLFCART TESTERS and it might blow that as well . . you need a fuse in series with it to avoid fire !! and you don't need a diode . It will only slow down the charge rate . Remember this is not a toy cap this is the Big Daddy .I guess i need to put a Disclaimer on Site there in case someone burns their house down and also it will shock the S*** out of you if you have sweaty hands!!! Even 2 volts at 650 amps hurts and it is DC ,it wont let you go like AC will . It contracts your muscles and makes you grab it harder :)))) I have Bigger Big Mama 1200 farads !!! 1 bill will get her

Good Testing !!!

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 02, 2009, 01:47:31 PM

Yes Bill, you are welcome,
I would have to say that Bill Beaty was my first electronics teacher. I would read and re-read his pages. He wrote that page in 1996. I think I found it in 1997.

When I walked into the high school electronics lab that fateful day, ALL I had for background in electronics or circuits was from Bill Beaty. I had to re-learn some customary concepts just to get along in that lab. I learned how to solder and use a led and very practical things in that E-lab, but I took most of the theory with a grain of salt, because I had already been introduced to answers to the unusual questions nobody really answers. ... and it continues...

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 02, 2009, 02:25:31 PM

WARNING !!DISCLAIMER:RISK FOR INJURING YOURSELF or your PROPERTY WITH EXPERIMENTAL ELECTRONIC DEVICES. ... dangerous if not respected. Some of the experimental machines and Parts can cause FIRE ,Electrocution , Burns , Destroy electronic test equipment or death ! WHEN YOU MAKE A PURCHASE YOU AGREE TO NOT HOLD ME RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR INJURY CAUSED BY MY PRODUCTS ,KITS AND OR PARTS !!. Thank you . you may now return to your regular scheduled experiments :)

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 02, 2009, 02:38:22 PM

Gadget:

Thanks for the response. My meter is not fried as the fuse is still good. I have blown them before. I was just curious about the negative symbol on it but I guess I got away with it as it is not yet full. Yes, my meter does not go to 650 amps, ha ha.

When my little 10 Farad caps got full, they just stopped charging. Will this one just continue to charge if I leave it hooked up? I am surprised the volts are higher than I have seen with this new EB set-up. Again, on the smaller supercaps, the volts never went higher than the 1.95 input value. This is high enough now that I might fry the Fuji if I hook directly to it so I am going to have to ramp it down a bit with a transformer.

Thanks for the other warnings. I already figured that I do not want to touch 650 amps, ha ha. You are right, this is not a toy at all and folks do need to use caution when experimenting with these.

I am going to have to slow down a bit a figure out some safe experiments. Come to think of it, I probably should hang a sign on my cap container saying "Danger" just in case the maintenance guy decides to touch the leads on the EB supercap set-up. It might get me evicted.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 02, 2009, 02:50:28 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 02, 2009, 02:38:22 PM
Gadget:

Thanks for the response. My meter is not fried as the fuse is still good. I have blown them before. I was just curious about the negative symbol on it but I guess I got away with it as it is not yet full. Yes, my meter does not go to 650 amps, ha ha.

When my little 10 Farad caps got full, they just stopped charging. Will this one just continue to charge if I leave it hooked up? I am surprised the volts are higher than I have seen with this new EB set-up. Again, on the smaller supercaps, the volts never went higher than the 1.95 input value. This is high enough now that I might fry the Fuji if I hook directly to it so I am going to have to ramp it down a bit with a transformer.

Thanks for the other warnings. I already figured that I do not want to touch 650 amps, ha ha. You are right, this is not a toy at all and folks do need to use caution when experimenting with these.

I am going to have to slow down a bit a figure out some safe experiments. Come to think of it, I probably should hang a sign on my cap container saying "Danger" just in case the maintenance guy decides to touch the leads on the EB supercap set-up. It might get me evicted.

Bill

Hi . Remember i told you that it will burn lamp cord . Well lamp cord is stranded and much thicker than a 10 amp fuse . your lucky !! . Be careful Please . you can only read in series with an led or jt when checking current . If that cap is not at ZERO then it has AMPS in it . after you hit 2 volts its almost full and the AMPS are full as well . you need to watch the charge . mine will not over charge because i have a load on it all the time and the circuit i posted with the Night time switch keeps it drained below the 2.7 volts , so you can use a
2.5 volt Zener 1n4004 in series to stop it from over charging also . . once the cap HIts 2.5 it stops charging I have more tricks but less see how it does today and if it reaches 2.6 then we will have to regulate it .Remember when running a Jt that this is almost twice the Volts so i suggest running two Jts or jt and a fugi in series . that is neg to pos in series then you can run them "safely "from the MONSTER .AND i recommended a couple of round crimp terminals and some good lamp wire and a fuse ;) Find the Biggest ring Crimp and then you will have to cut it so it will fit the threads.this way you have a Solid Connection . I would say negative 9 on your poor ole meter is saying your killing me i am incorrect and can't handle this kind of power !! . Really you can get some nichrome wire and make a heater with it and power a small fan from it for awhile or run your jt for a few days . Many Possibles .
Gadget

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on June 02, 2009, 02:51:42 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 02, 2009, 01:36:08 PM
Hi Jesus,
I wanted to mention this and this is the right opportunity.

If you were able to charge your battery from your set up even if it is not correct and even if it did come from a loose wire connection, that very thing may be what you need to explore.

Please tell us exactly where the loose connection was. Like even draw it on your circuit. It may be the very information we need. Perhaps there was an extra pulsing in that place which made more back emf in the right place etc.......
---
( For instance, my 2tier circuit has some very odd things going on. Only odd, because if all the wires were connected in a single loop the lights should be equally bright; but they are not. If pulling out "light A" makes one other light "light B" go out then why , if you reverse this and pull out light B does light A not go out?

I am sure there is a reasonable explanation, but it is not what you would expect to see at first glance. I believe it has to do with the inductor toroid being there and doing something at that point.)
---

I bet you have a circuit within a circuit that is doing something special with the main toroid inductor.

So, I would love to see a schematic of your "mistake with the loose wire".

thank you,

jeanna

I still do not understand the joule thief completely.
I mean why it do this or do that.

But for your request of the circuit failure explained I wrote the explanation on the circuit graphic.

If anybody is interested on trying the new version that separates the LED working from the Diode charging I will post it here first instead that on my Feedback to the source topic.

Jesus

Title: Resonance
Post by: Thaelin on June 02, 2009, 02:52:00 PM

I posted the result of the test simply to verify the other test. My outcome was the same. I have a dual spiral wound 3"X6" coil with a 220k cap soldered to it for the input side. The other coil has a 220k soldered in series with it to the bulb. There was no readings taken other than to see what the input voltage was from the sig gen. That part will come later as I progress into another area other than the jewel thief. This may well be something that could be used in the circuit. I am not sure just how yet. Getting there.

thay

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 02, 2009, 03:34:37 PM

@ Gadget:

Thanks. I will go check the volts and see where it is. I hope it does stop at 2.5 that would be good. If it is higher than that when I check it, I will take it out of the circuit for now. I get the feeling I could run a toaster with this thing.

Bill

Title: Re: Resonance
Post by: xee2 on June 02, 2009, 03:35:24 PM

@ Thaelin

Quote from: Thaelin on June 02, 2009, 02:52:00 PM
I posted the result of the test simply to verify the other test. My outcome was the same. I have a dual spiral wound 3"X6" coil with a 220k cap soldered to it for the input side. The other coil has a 220k soldered in series with it to the bulb. There was no readings taken other than to see what the input voltage was from the sig gen. That part will come later as I progress into another area other than the jewel thief. This may well be something that could be used in the circuit. I am not sure just how yet. Getting there.

thay

Did you check this site?

http://www.instructables.com/id/Wireless-Power-Transmission-Over-Short-Distances-U/

He is using bulb on coupled coil in parallel with capacitor and coil (everything in parallel). You seem to have everything in series. Should work both ways. If you try his way please post which way works best.

I think that everything in parallel will give higher voltage across bulb and therefore may make it easier to light an LED. I think that both should provide same amount of power with series giving more current. But I have not done this in a long time and I do not remember the details.

If you use LEDs with parallel circuit you may need to use two in parallel with one reversed so as not to exceed reverse breakdown voltage of LED.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on June 02, 2009, 06:15:02 PM

Quote from: weri812 on June 02, 2009, 10:07:10 AM
hello all

you can use the thermoelectric modules on a steirling motor

wer

well if you do that then you might just as well power a electric motor, ive got a pretty good idea that the effeciencies of the two combined wont amount to OU.

now that you mention it i considered adding a sterling to the geothermal and solar system i designed for my house, with a big water tank chances are you wont need it for hot water and many times hot water us used in the mornings after the temp has had a chance to fall so for summer use a sterling could be tied in to make some electricity out of that hot water stored. hopefully make up for most of the homes electricity.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 02, 2009, 06:22:20 PM

I have quoted a reply I received from Dr. Stiffler about my new supercap on Energetic Forum:

"Bill who told you that a SuperCap would continue to accept charge if the voltage across it remained the same? Here are some basic facts that apply to all caps (SuperCaps included); Q = CV C = Q/V V = Q/C V is the voltage on the cap. C if the capacity in Farads and Q is the charge or Coulombs. The energy in the cap can be found with a basic formula J = 1/2(CV^2) where J is Joules or WattSeconds. If you want WattHours then WHr = J/3600 So if yo have a cap of 650F @ 2.7V you get J=1/2(650*(2.7^2)) = 2.369E3 or 2,369 WattSeconds. Divide this by 3600 and 2369/3600= 6.581E-1 Watt Hours or 0.6581 = 658milliwatt hours. Yes if you direct short this cap through the meter it should burn something up, but the fuse will not necessarily respond as the initial pulse is very short. This is not much energy as the power is determined over time so you must use V*I*T. The stored energy in a cap can also be found by W=CV^2/2 which I showed above. Note that one Joule or WattSecond is only 2.78E-7 KwHr. Hope this helps."[/]

He says that there is not much energy stored in my cap at all. I don't know enough to argue with himbut look at what I was able to do with just two 10 farad caps and now I won't be able to do much with 650? This makes no sense to me at all. He is saying I will only have milliwatts for output and again, I find this very hard to believe.
As for the part about someone telling me the cap will continue to charge above my input voltage, well, I have seen that with my own eyes and so no one had to tell me anything. 1.95 vdc input from EB and now over 2.4 vdc on the supercap and climbing. Something or someone is not correct here.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on June 02, 2009, 06:26:23 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 02, 2009, 11:29:37 AM
@ All:

I am posting this here even though it has nothing to do with the JT circuits....yet. I need the advice of the smart folks here. Yesterday, I received my 650 Farad maxcap from Gadgetmall (Thanks Al) and that sucker is huge!! The polarity is clearly marked and there is a warning on the label not to reverse it. I installed it into a plastic waterproof container (tupperware) to make it weatherproof and hooked it to my Earth battery yesterday afternoon. Well, this morning I got up, got some coffee and decide to stick my meter on it just to see how it was doing. Here are the results:

+2.4 volts dc
-9.7 amps dc (This is on the 10 amp setting on my meter, not mA!)

I can't think of any reason that the polarity on the amp setting would be minus and the volts are plus. I have never seen anything like this before while working with the EB and supercaps, etc. If this -9.7 amps is usable given the reverse polarity, I will be able to run some great stuff from this but I am confused by this.

I tested it like 5 different times now and still get the same thing.

Without any supercaps at all, I was getting about +1.95 vdc and +10 mA's from just the EB.

Can someone tell me why this amp reading has a - sign in front of it and, will this affect my trying to use this power?

Thanks. These 650 caps from Al are really somethng and well worth the price he asks for them.

Bill

well the first and obvious question is did you connect it backwards to the ground? how about the meter? sure it can be used to run something! you will need to wire it respectively to have the pos charge (connected to the neg on your meter) flow as it should through a curcuit but its the same as any other potential.

bill something to consider, the cap will charge and equal the force applied to it then stop charging, it sounds like your cap has found its max. if you add a diod it will allow you to store a greater amount of electricity than the ground can provide which is really what you want.

think of it this way if you push a car up a hill it will move up the hill (work with me on this) now as the rate of climb increases to near strait up it will eventually find a steep enough slope that you cannot push any higher and now you become stationary even tho you are pushing with the same force. you could climb that hill if the car didnt threaten to roll backwards right? you could continue to nudge it forward but you cant because the constant force you provide cant keep it up on that grade of slope. add a diode and now it cant go backwards so you can continue to nudge it to the top of the hill!! capacitors are kinda alike in that respect. they will only take on the voltage provided which in your case seems to be 2.5v and you have reached the steepest part of the slope you can support at 9.5a so add a diode and it will be 2.5v and a infinite amp until you reach the max which is apparently for you 650.

hope this helps.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: AbbaRue on June 02, 2009, 06:45:51 PM

@Pirate88179
You don't need to worry about shock danger when working with low
voltages like 2 volts. I doesn't matter how many amps you have.
You could stick your tongue across that super cap when it is fully charged
and you would just feel a tingle on your tongue.
Even 12 volts is safe to handle. You can touch the 2 terminals of a 12 volt
battery with your fingers without feeling anything as long as your
fingers aren't wet.

As for keeping the voltage down to run a Fuji circuit I would recommend a voltage regulator circuit.
You need a 1.5 volt zener diode and a transistor to make one.
Lots of voltage regulator schematics on the internet.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 02, 2009, 06:54:39 PM

Artic_Knight:

Thanks for the reply. I like your analogy and, I believe I even understand. One thing that is slightly different, which is what Dr. Stiffler was responding to, is that alone, the EB puts out 1.95 volts and now the supercap has close to 2.5 volts on it. He says this can't happen. Maybe the difference is that my meter in volt mode does not load the circuit. We have read in the past that the EB can rise to the challenge when you place a load on it, to a point of course. So if the EB sees the supercap as a load, which it is, maybe it is pulling more out of it than my no load meter will? (This is just a guess)

Yes, everything is hooked up correctly polarity wise. There is a stern warning on the caps that if the polarity is not correct, it can explode with great force and cause damage or injury. So, I was very careful in this.

Gadget is correct in that my meter can not handle the amp level and therefore the minus sign in that reading is probably just an anomaly that happened as I was about to fry the meter by reading it like that.

Thanks for your explanation and analogy. These supercaps are really cool.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 02, 2009, 06:55:57 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 02, 2009, 06:22:20 PM
I have quoted a reply I received from Dr. Stiffler about my new supercap on Energetic Forum:

"Bill who told you that a SuperCap would continue to accept charge if the voltage across it remained the same? Here are some basic facts that apply to all caps (SuperCaps included); Q = CV C = Q/V V = Q/C V is the voltage on the cap. C if the capacity in Farads and Q is the charge or Coulombs. The energy in the cap can be found with a basic formula J = 1/2(CV^2) where J is Joules or WattSeconds. If you want WattHours then WHr = J/3600 So if yo have a cap of 650F @ 2.7V you get J=1/2(650*(2.7^2)) = 2.369E3 or 2,369 WattSeconds. Divide this by 3600 and 2369/3600= 6.581E-1 Watt Hours or 0.6581 = 658milliwatt hours. Yes if you direct short this cap through the meter it should burn something up, but the fuse will not necessarily respond as the initial pulse is very short. This is not much energy as the power is determined over time so you must use V*I*T. The stored energy in a cap can also be found by W=CV^2/2 which I showed above. Note that one Joule or WattSecond is only 2.78E-7 KwHr. Hope this helps."[/]

He says that there is not much energy stored in my cap at all. I don't know enough to argue with himbut look at what I was able to do with just two 10 farad caps and now I won't be able to do much with 650? This makes no sense to me at all. He is saying I will only have milliwatts for output and again, I find this very hard to believe.
As for the part about someone telling me the cap will continue to charge above my input voltage, well, I have seen that with my own eyes and so no one had to tell me anything. 1.95 vdc input from EB and now over 2.4 vdc on the supercap and climbing. Something or someone is not correct here.

Bill

I am fairly sure the poster is right. However I am very weak in caps so I can not say for sure. I do know however that in my tests if you have a constant voltage the caps will only charge to that voltage. Your earth battery might have spikes that are pushing the cap to go higher.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 02, 2009, 06:58:49 PM

Quote from: AbbaRue on June 02, 2009, 06:45:51 PM
@Pirate88179
You don't need to worry about shock danger when working with low
voltages like 2 volts. I doesn't matter how many amps you have.
You could stick your tongue across that super cap when it is fully charged
and you would just feel a tingle on your tongue.
Even 12 volts is safe to handle. You can touch the 2 terminals of a 12 volt
battery with your fingers without feeling anything as long as your
fingers aren't wet.

As for keeping the voltage down to run a Fuji circuit I would recommend a voltage regulator circuit.
You need a 1.5 volt zener diode and a transistor to make one.
Lots of voltage regulator schematics on the internet.

Thank you. Obviously I am out of my knowledge comfort zone here and I appreciate the input. When the EB read 1.95 I was able to run the Fuji OK, no damage, but now nearing 2.5 volts, I think this is too high for it. I will look up the circuit you mentioned. Thanks.

Bil

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 02, 2009, 06:59:37 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on June 02, 2009, 10:59:22 AM
@resonanceman

You are having some success with the joule thief self charger.
I have not been able to put it to work again.

Jesus

Jesus

Just don't give up .

Keep playing with it .

It worked for me .....so there is something there .

Have you tried going back to the start ?
Building it one piece at a time ....... and checking how it is working after each piece

``````````````````````````````

My charger actually lost a little voltage today

I checked the wires and found a couple of mistakes . ......it is a wonder that it charged at all
I think I got it fixed .........now I have to let it run for a while and find out if it keeps charging or poops out again

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 02, 2009, 07:48:10 PM

Bill,
I have been wondering about putting a diode into your EB collection system. The earth is not steady current. It is dynamic and filled with spikes and it goes more than alternating, it goes random and sideways. So, you have found a pair of spots that together give a kind of constant magnetic field/movement(?) I don't know the term, of course, but anyway, if you put a diode into the pos side you will create that as a more positive side.
If the diode doesn't work maybe you could use a bridge and really force all of it one way and into your cap.

Remember last week theNOP pointed out that in ac the cap will empty and fill when the direction changes.

So, my question is what is this big cap for if it will be too much for your fuji at 2.6 volts? I am surprised that this almost empty capacitor is too much?

Please explain, thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 02, 2009, 08:47:44 PM

Hi All,
EDIT: I need to delete this part... ...
---
but still...

adding two or three similar sets of pickups on the same toroid could give a multi-phase kind of ac -- if they could be phased.

I have been thinking about this kind of thing a lot lately.

I read that the reason for 3 phase is to give enough power to heavy things (like saws and stoves etc.) to make it impossible for the waveform to ever be zero.

I see the importance of frequency here too. If the frequency of all these peaks can be pushed together, then it will seem like pure uninterrupted power. Power without a null point.

But it seems to need more. I can get a very high frequency of waves that are 260 volts on a MK1 but while that will turn on the string o' leds, it has far more voltage than the wall does, and more than twice the voltage that is required. The amps are there for the lights as well, but they only turn on with this voltage level that is 2 1/2 times what is required from the wall.

So, after I have found a great frequency/volts or the peak of those, then I should be able to make a couple of pickups that will go together and look like more power by phasing them, because there will be no null point.- right?

I am probably saying nothing new for those of you who have studied.

So, I would like to ask you who have studied, how the 2 or 3 (if I can fit them) pickups should be added together?

What kind of thing would retard one of the similar coils on the same toroid?
(Would a ceramic cap in series on one but not the other have a retarding effect?
Is a resistor appropriate here?... ) Maybe they would be in a different phase by virtue of being in a different place on the toroid itself? And I should just try it. (I guess I should just try it anyway)

thank you for your ideas,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 02, 2009, 09:03:24 PM

@Pirate88179

I would not want to see you get hurt so I think you need to do some research before you use a 650 F capacitor. If charged to 2 volts it can deliver a million amps for a millisecond if it has low internal resistance. If you do not think a million amps can do much damage in a millisecond I think you will soon be educated.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 02, 2009, 09:09:48 PM

Quote from: electricme on June 02, 2009, 05:00:58 AM
@all,
I just found a web site that just blew me away literally. ;D
The information on LEDs is awsome here, just what you can do with LEDs.

This chap has found a 100Watt LED module, which is actually an array of Star Luxon Leds, it needs a massive heatsink with a fan blower to get rid of the heat, now I wonder if our joulethief could make it run cooler? lol. It costs $500 australian

The output is to be seen to be believed, it can burn holes in stuff, it is brighter than a set of car 100watt headlights, this is the way of economy lightning. :D

Click on this to go to it http://tesladownunder.com/LEDs.htm

Then scroll to the bottom to see what a 2N3055 gets up to in the dark, ha ha ha, amazing stuff this

jim

You lot missed all this lol
http://tesladownunder.com/LEDs.htm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 02, 2009, 09:45:38 PM

@Bill,

Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 02, 2009, 02:38:22 PM
I am going to have to ramp it down a bit with a transformer.

Thanks for the other warnings. I already figured that I do not want to touch 650 amps, ha ha. You are right, this is not a toy at all and folks do need to use caution when experimenting with these.

Come to think of it, I probably should hang a sign on my cap container saying "Danger" just in case the maintenance guy decides to touch the leads on the EB supercap set-up. It might get me evicted.

Bill

Hi Bill, congradulations on aquiring your big cap, If you put the cap in your flat with a couple of charging wires back to the EB, put the blocking diode on the cap terminal itself, this will ensure it's safety from the maintenance man's point of view back in the paddock. :D A sign is still a good idea though.

You wont be able to ramp it down with a transformer, as DC needs something behind it to give it a move-along like a make and break switch type of thing, but I understand what you mean.

@Altrez,
I got your PM ok. Ta.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 02, 2009, 09:46:45 PM

@ All:

My Earth battery-supercap running a one magnet no bearing Bedini motor:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rauOlhNK0iY

That cap is great!!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on June 02, 2009, 09:48:23 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 02, 2009, 06:54:39 PM
Artic_Knight:

Thanks for the reply. I like your analogy and, I believe I even understand. One thing that is slightly different, which is what Dr. Stiffler was responding to, is that alone, the EB puts out 1.95 volts and now the supercap has close to 2.5 volts on it. He says this can't happen. Maybe the difference is that my meter in volt mode does not load the circuit. We have read in the past that the EB can rise to the challenge when you place a load on it, to a point of course. So if the EB sees the supercap as a load, which it is, maybe it is pulling more out of it than my no load meter will? (This is just a guess)

Yes, everything is hooked up correctly polarity wise. There is a stern warning on the caps that if the polarity is not correct, it can explode with great force and cause damage or injury. So, I was very careful in this.

Gadget is correct in that my meter can not handle the amp level and therefore the minus sign in that reading is probably just an anomaly that happened as I was about to fry the meter by reading it like that.

Thanks for your explanation and analogy. These supercaps are really cool.

Bill

LOL at the pic of the car!! you guys are great :-p

bill as a couple posters have noted you can see 1.9v but it is at 2.4mhz and has a sinwave form so your not seeing all of the spike :) perhaps a scope shot of a EB is in order?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 02, 2009, 09:53:00 PM

Quote from: electricme on June 02, 2009, 09:45:38 PM

@Altrez,
I got your PM ok. Ta.

Ok cool :) I have noticed something today. It is very odd and I must send you the coil notes. My LLA1 is also charging the source battery however it cant really charge it because its got a constant draw so it is basically hovering at the same mVs. It must be in the toroid winding what else could explain it?

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 02, 2009, 09:57:29 PM

@all

Today I got a copy of Free Energy Generation 20 Bedini-Bearden years and I must say its a great book. Off topic I know just wanted to post that bit of info :)

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 02, 2009, 11:16:36 PM

So, Altrez,

Have you ever put these multiple pickups together in a parallel connection to see what the scope says?

I sure would like to know before you achieve full battery charging what the scope tells you that each coil has for frequency and volts and if you put them together in series- I think that is the one you did?- and in parallel - again frequency and volts.

I realize it means taking some connections apart, but I sure would like to know.

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on June 02, 2009, 11:44:22 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 02, 2009, 06:22:20 PM
I have quoted a reply I received from Dr. Stiffler about my new supercap on Energetic Forum:

Quote"Bill who told you that a SuperCap would continue to accept charge if the voltage across it remained the same? Here are some basic facts that apply to all caps (SuperCaps included); Q = CV C = Q/V V = Q/C V is the voltage on the cap. C if the capacity in Farads and Q is the charge or Coulombs. The energy in the cap can be found with a basic formula J = 1/2(CV^2) where J is Joules or WattSeconds. If you want WattHours then WHr = J/3600 So if yo have a cap of 650F @ 2.7V you get J=1/2(650*(2.7^2)) = 2.369E3 or 2,369 WattSeconds. Divide this by 3600 and 2369/3600= 6.581E-1 Watt Hours or 0.6581 = 658milliwatt hours. Yes if you direct short this cap through the meter it should burn something up, but the fuse will not necessarily respond as the initial pulse is very short. This is not much energy as the power is determined over time so you must use V*I*T. The stored energy in a cap can also be found by W=CV^2/2 which I showed above. Note that one Joule or WattSecond is only 2.78E-7 KwHr. Hope this helps."

He says that there is not much energy stored in my cap at all. I don't know enough to argue with himbut look at what I was able to do with just two 10 farad caps and now I won't be able to do much with 650? This makes no sense to me at all. He is saying I will only have milliwatts for output and again, I find this very hard to believe.
As for the part about someone telling me the cap will continue to charge above my input voltage, well, I have seen that with my own eyes and so no one had to tell me anything. 1.95 vdc input from EB and now over 2.4 vdc on the supercap and climbing. Something or someone is not correct here.

Bill

even at low volts, at high amps, there are risks of injuries.
ex: burns and also flashes that can damage your eyes

a cap, once full, can't accept more energy.
your super cap will stop storing energy at ~2.7volts provided your voltage source can go that high.

lol
now i know why i keept blowing transistors.
i forgotted that 1 farad = 1 coulomb/ 1 volts = 1 amp/second.
the thing is that i posted about this not long ago in an other tread, about units conversion.
but i did not made the relation with my blown out transistors at that time.

thanks, you and mr. Stiffler

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on June 02, 2009, 11:46:27 PM

@Pirate and @electricme

Congratulations for running a motor from an EB!!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 03, 2009, 12:04:46 AM

@ Jesus:

Thank you. Jim did it first with his helicopter tail rotor motor. (I mentioned this and gave him credit in my video) Unless Al has done this already, I may be the first to run a Bedini from the EB. Hopefully, more to come.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on June 03, 2009, 12:10:21 AM

Quote from: jeanna on June 02, 2009, 07:48:10 PM
Remember last week theNOP pointed out that in ac the cap will empty and fill when the direction changes.

this is only true if the AC is symetric.
if peeks are higher then theirs "conter" peeks, the cap might be able to hold some energy.

and it will keep some energy stored if the AC is on top of DC.
meanning AC ripples of a DC current.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 03, 2009, 12:13:54 AM

Quote from Jeanna below:

"Remember last week theNOP pointed out that in ac the cap will empty and fill when the direction changes. So, my question is what is this big cap for if it will be too much for your fuji at 2.6 volts? I am surprised that this almost empty capacitor is too much?Please explain, thanks,jeanna"

As Gadget pointed out, at 2.5 volts on the 2.7 volt cap it is almost full and has lots and lots of amps. I will probably try to run the Fuji anyway just to see, maybe the components will survive 1.5 times the rated input. The reason I got this large cap is to allow me to get the amps up so I can run things no one thought possible from the EB. I will let the current trickle in during the day and use it at night.
One thought for you. My heating and AC unit takes only 15 amps (to start) and i will have 650 amps to play with for a while so, to me it is theoretically possible to run this unit from the EB even if only for a little while. That is a big step forward. I will need to step the volts up of course but, you already know how to do that. This step will be a while in the future but, it is now within the realm of possibility I believe.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 03, 2009, 12:38:57 AM

Quote from: TheNOP on June 03, 2009, 12:10:21 AM
this is only true if the AC is symetric.
if peeks are higher then theirs "conter" peeks, the cap might be able to hold some energy.

and it will keep some energy stored if the AC is on top of DC.
meanning AC ripples of a DC current.

Ah that means I ought to check out the thing I noticed tonight. The dc on the EB was 0.00v today and 0.66v a couple of days ago, but both days the scope said the voltage was peak to peak 20mV and the frequency was 2.4MHz. The 2 copper pipes had a voltage difference tonight of 0.023v. This is very close to the voltage above the dc. I will look again this week

So, do I understand this correctly? Bill should be able to collect the dc voltage that is in his area but the ac will be lost except for the peaks that are off center?

According to my scope, the peaks are pretty much centered with this ac element from the earth.- if that is what it is.

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 03, 2009, 12:48:43 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 03, 2009, 12:13:54 AM
... I am surprised that this almost empty capacitor is too much?Please explain, thanks,jeanna"
...
The reason I got this large cap is to allow me to get the amps up so I can run things no one thought possible from the EB. I will let the current trickle in during the day and use it at night.
One thought for you. My heating and AC unit takes only 15 amps (to start) and i will have 650 amps to play with for a while so, to me it is theoretically possible to run this unit from the EB even if only for a little while. ...

Bill

Nice,
I wasn't questioning why you wanted it, I was wondering why you suddenly thought it was too much. Thanks for the answer.

hmm
I have this cool vestfrost refridgerator from Denmark. It is really really efficient. It has 2 compressors. The sales ad warned that even though it takes very low energy it takes 38,000 volts at times to start it up.

Well, after it was living with me, I realized those 38,000 volts were coming from a cap-pop to start up the compressors.

Sooo, yes, you probably can use that big cap to get things going. I see,

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 03, 2009, 01:23:29 AM

@Jesus,
Thankyou very much for these kind words, Jesus, they mean a lot to me, and I'm sure they do to Bill also.

@Bill, I just read your PM, now I had better go and take a look ha ha.

Quote from: nievesoliveras on June 02, 2009, 11:46:27 PM
@Pirate and @electricme

Congratulations for running a motor from an EB!!

Jesus

EDIT ***
I have just taken a look see at Bills video, it is as Bill has mentioned and done.
Thank you Bill for giving credit where it is due, thank you for mentioning me in your video.

However I just want to make this clear to all the folks who read this post that it is Pirate who has successfully run his Bedini/Jonhnydavro on his video post today, and it was Bill (Pirate88179) who gave me credit for being the first to run a tiny electric motor off my earth battery via a 55Farad 2.5v super cap.

Thankyou Bill.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 03, 2009, 03:10:40 AM

@Altrez,
I suddenly got it, the penny dropped.

Quote from: altrez on June 02, 2009, 09:53:00 PM
Ok cool :) I have noticed something today. It is very odd and I must send you the coil notes. My LLA1 is also charging the source battery however it cant really charge it because its got a constant draw so it is basically hovering at the same mVs. It must be in the toroid winding what else could explain it?

-Altrez

OK, this is what is going on, the reason why the JT can charge the single battery, and it is so simple.

The fully charged 1.5v cell when connected is just like a starter motor, it cranks up the Joule Thief, then the Joule Thief begins to run, when it is fine tuned, the Joule Thief, becomes like a Battery (but physically it isn't, only energy wise), it takes the place of the 1st battery, because it has a higher energy output, so the real battery becomes the recharge battery to soak up the overflow of energy from the Joule Thief.

If the Joule Thief cannot achieve more voltage and current, that the Battery is putting into it, then this will not occur, it willl just be a standard Joule Thief.

To see if your Joule Thief can be a OU device, place a capacitor of about 10uf at 6.3v DC accross the 1.5v Battery, start the Joule Thief, then remove the Battery, if the Joule Thief continues to run, without the Battery, you can then say it is a successful test.

Did that make sense? this is why extra LEDs can be made to light at the same time.

@all,
I have just wound 4 new toroids, they are about 7/8" diameter, with a 9/16" hole and 3/16" thick.
I put 85 turns of fine wire on the primaries and 24 turns of heavy wire on the secondaries.

What I want to do is connect all the primaries in series (Just like my other 7 series setup toroids)
and solder 4 bridge rectifiers to all the 4 outputs, everything the same this time, except the toroids are connected back to front to my previous 7 toroid set up.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 03, 2009, 03:18:44 AM

@ Jim:

Thank you. I swear, if you had one of these big supercaps, there is no telling what you could run down there. I believe credit should always be given where it is due. Anything I have been able to accomplish here is only due to the help and ideas of others. Soon, hopefully, I will come up with something totally original but even then, it will be because of what I have been able to learn here.

Now, on to the EB-Monstercap-JT experiments.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 03, 2009, 07:00:52 AM

Quote from: electricme on June 03, 2009, 03:10:40 AM
@Altrez,
I suddenly got it, the penny dropped.

OK, this is what is going on, the reason why the JT can charge the single battery, and it is so simple.

The fully charged 1.5v cell when connected is just like a starter motor, it cranks up the Joule Thief, then the Joule Thief begins to run, when it is fine tuned, the Joule Thief, becomes like a Battery (but physically it isn't, only energy wise), it takes the place of the 1st battery, because it has a higher energy output, so the real battery becomes the recharge battery to soak up the overflow of energy from the Joule Thief.

If the Joule Thief cannot achieve more voltage and current, that the Battery is putting into it, then this will not occur, it willl just be a standard Joule Thief.

To see if your Joule Thief can be a OU device, place a capacitor of about 10uf at 6.3v DC accross the 1.5v Battery, start the Joule Thief, then remove the Battery, if the Joule Thief continues to run, without the Battery, you can then say it is a successful test.

Did that make sense? this is why extra LEDs can be made to light at the same time.

jim

Jim,

I normally always have a cap in that spot already its just really small so I did as you asked. And well it sorta worked! This is how it went.

With the Cap in place I pulled the main battery I was still producing .003 mV with out the battery! With the battery however its over 200mV. The Cap would produce .002 to .004 recdified DC voltage.

The way I test is to attach a meter to one of the Bridge rectifiers. And watch the voltage. Its a heck of a lot lower with the cap but it is a constant with the same sort of voltage spikes.

I am not sure if this is making any sense but like I said it sorta works. There is a lot of EMF floating around here in my kitchen so it is more then likely that the cap is simply picking that up. And with out REAL voltage being produced from the cap 2 volts or more. This test can only be labeled as inconclusive.

I did find out however that if I leave the big cap hooked up with the main battery and a blocking diode It will charge the cap up to the spiked voltage I am seeing on my setup. And that I find very cool.

So this is what I did next. I put the big cap back in place with battery. And let it catch the spikes. It charged up to over 550mV. I took the cap out and tested again and it was true the cap was charged to 550mv.

So why does that excite me you might ask? Well that proves to me at least that the main battery is catching an extra charge from the "back EMF???" toroid somehow.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 03, 2009, 07:04:13 AM

Quote from: jeanna on June 02, 2009, 11:16:36 PM
So, Altrez,

Have you ever put these multiple pickups together in a parallel connection to see what the scope says?

I sure would like to know before you achieve full battery charging what the scope tells you that each coil has for frequency and volts and if you put them together in series- I think that is the one you did?- and in parallel - again frequency and volts.

I realize it means taking some connections apart, but I sure would like to know.

thanks,

jeanna

I will get that information for you this weekend jeanna. I will also get some readings with my LHR meter for the coils.

Hows things going on your end?

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 03, 2009, 10:10:55 AM

@Bill,
Ohh, but you have already have done something remarkable, in fact several.
This forum testifies to that itself.

Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 03, 2009, 03:18:44 AM
@ Jim:

Thank you. I swear, if you had one of these big supercaps, there is no telling what you could run down there. I believe credit should always be given where it is due. Anything I have been able to accomplish here is only due to the help and ideas of others. Soon, hopefully, I will come up with something totally original but even then, it will be because of what I have been able to learn here.

Now, on to the EB-Monstercap-JT experiments.

Bill

Bill, you have introduced me and others here to the Joule Thief, your Earth Batteries, the Super Capacitor, and thats for starts, the first time I ever saw a LED powered by the earth was from your setup, and I was hooked, line and sinker.

Yep, I could do with one of those new fangled hoodickie wach-a-ma-callits 650SC.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on June 03, 2009, 10:12:27 AM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 02, 2009, 06:59:37 PM

Jesus

Just don't give up .
Keep playing with it .
It worked for me .....so there is something there .

Have you tried going back to the start ?
Building it one piece at a time ....... and checking how it is working after each piece

``````````````````````````````
My charger actually lost a little voltage today
I checked the wires and found a couple of mistakes . ......it is a wonder that it charged at all
I think I got it fixed .........now I have to let it run for a while and find out if it keeps charging or poops out again

gary

Thank you @resonanceman !
How it has been going?

I will build a new toroid coil and start from step one.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 03, 2009, 10:20:03 AM

Quote from: electricme on June 03, 2009, 03:10:40 AM
@Altrez,
I suddenly got it, the penny dropped.

OK, this is what is going on, the reason why the JT can charge the single battery, and it is so simple.

The fully charged 1.5v cell when connected is just like a starter motor, it cranks up the Joule Thief, then the Joule Thief begins to run, when it is fine tuned, the Joule Thief, becomes like a Battery (but physically it isn't, only energy wise), it takes the place of the 1st battery, because it has a higher energy output, so the real battery becomes the recharge battery to soak up the overflow of energy from the Joule Thief.

If the Joule Thief cannot achieve more voltage and current, that the Battery is putting into it, then this will not occur, it willl just be a standard Joule Thief.

To see if your Joule Thief can be a OU device, place a capacitor of about 10uf at 6.3v DC accross the 1.5v Battery, start the Joule Thief, then remove the Battery, if the Joule Thief continues to run, without the Battery, you can then say it is a successful test.

Did that make sense? this is why extra LEDs can be made to light at the same time.

As I understand it there is more going on here .

I beleive that the basic JT is mostly making flyback pulses .
It makes a pulse .......and then shuts down for a second ......the pulse ends at the battery ........where it is either used to charge the battery or used before it charges the battery for another pulse .
REMEMBER the battery is a CHEMICAL possess .....it takes a specific time for the charge or discharge to occur .
I have tried several times to switch to a cap while running a JT that was charging the battery . I have not got it to work so far .

What I am seeing with my self charging JT is that to charge the same battery the JT must be running very slow ....... the battery being a chemical process can not charge and discharge at the same time ......so you have to give it enough time to do one then the other .
I don't have the equipment to find exact numbers but a ballpark number is 2 flashes a second may be about max for charging and discharging the same battery at least that is about where it seems to die out for me .

That seems to be the reason that I can't just leave my charger JT alone and let it run ........as it charges the frequency rises .......and eventually it stops charging .

As far as running lots of LEDs off of different secondarys .....I think that is a whole different ball game .
Current teaching is something like if you have a transformer with 2 equal secondarys the current from the input will be divided between those secondarys .......end of story . ( edit .... for the skeptics ....... I know that there are losses such as eddy currents in any transformer .... we are not talking about losses here . )

In real life it is not quite that simple .
I believe that ALL the electrons in ALL the atoms near the primary are affected ........ A MRI makes images of living tissue by affecting the atoms to change spin then mapping how long it takes them to return to normal . If the magnetic field of the MRI is affecting the spin of ALL the atoms .......wouldn't a smaller magnetic field do the same thing on a smaller scale ?
I have some theorys that I don;t have time to try to explain now .......but I believe that the people that have driven LOTS of LEDs with secondarys are just tapping into a larger section of this electron movement .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 03, 2009, 10:23:36 AM

@Altrez
Well done sir.

Quote from: altrez on June 03, 2009, 07:00:52 AM
Jim,

I normally always have a cap in that spot already its just really small so I did as you asked. And well it sorta worked! This is how it went.

With the Cap in place I pulled the main battery I was still producing .003 mV with out the battery! With the battery however its over 200mV. The Cap would produce .002 to .004 recdified DC voltage.

The way I test is to attach a meter to one of the Bridge rectifiers. And watch the voltage. Its a heck of a lot lower with the cap but it is a constant with the same sort of voltage spikes.

I am not sure if this is making any sense but like I said it sorta works. There is a lot of EMF floating around here in my kitchen so it is more then likely that the cap is simply picking that up. And with out REAL voltage being produced from the cap 2 volts or more. This test can only be labeled as inconclusive.

I did find out however that if I leave the big cap hooked up with the main battery and a blocking diode It will charge the cap up to the spiked voltage I am seeing on my setup. And that I find very cool.

So this is what I did next. I put the big cap back in place with battery. And let it catch the spikes. It charged up to over 550mV. I took the cap out and tested again and it was true the cap was charged to 550mv.

So why does that excite me you might ask? Well that proves to me at least that the main battery is catching an extra charge from the "back EMF???" toroid somehow.

-Altrez

If you can find a capacitor with a volt rating which is closer to 2 volt, I think you will have a better result as the JT output wont be struggling to keep it topped up while the battery is out of the circuit.

This was my theory on why a single battery could be recharged, and you have proved it with your experiment, well done Altrez.

Goodnight all, I am tired
I'm hitting the sack.

hooroo

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 03, 2009, 10:53:00 AM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on June 03, 2009, 10:12:27 AM
Thank you @resonanceman !
How it has been going?

I will build a new toroid coil and start from step one.

Jesus

Jesus I am glad that you are giving it another try .

I think I am going to spend most of my free time today making a new coil

I REALLY want to finsh my Jesus charger .........but when I tried just putting it on a circuit board it didn;t work for me either ..........so I am going to add one piece at a time to the board .

Right now ....I am waiting on my charger JT
I need to verify that I can get a full charge from the same exact setup by only adjusting the pulse ( keeping it around 1 flash per second )

When I am expermenting I hook everything together with alligator clip leads .........I will need some of them when I work on my Jesus charger .
Right now they are all tied up with my self charging JT.

:)

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 03, 2009, 11:31:58 AM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 03, 2009, 10:20:03 AM

What I am seeing with my self charging JT is that to charge the same battery the JT must be running very slow ....... the battery being a chemical process can not charge and discharge at the same time ......so you have to give it enough time to do one then the other .
I don't have the equipment to find exact numbers but a ballpark number is 2 flashes a second may be about max for charging and discharging the same battery at least that is about where it seems to die out for me .

That seems to be the reason that I can't just leave my charger JT alone and let it run ........as it charges the frequency rises .......and eventually it stops charging .

After writing this it occured to me that I could keep the battery from having to both charge and discharge each cycle by placing a LARGE cap across the battery .
In theory I should be able to remove the battery at any time .......but I can
;t
With the cap across the battery I can run the JT several times faster .
I think what is limiting me now is the power of each pulse .
I think I am doing this the hard way .
If I was driving a large load ........like a few dozen LEDs I would have large pulses to run through my coils .
I am using the coils themselves as my load right now .
It might actually be easier to get it to charge while running a real load .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 03, 2009, 02:39:16 PM

Quote from: AbbaRue on June 02, 2009, 06:45:51 PM
@Pirate88179
You don't need to worry about shock danger when working with low
voltages like 2 volts. I doesn't matter how many amps you have.
You could stick your tongue across that super cap when it is fully charged
and you would just feel a tingle on your tongue.
Even 12 volts is safe to handle. You can touch the 2 terminals of a 12 volt
battery with your fingers without feeling anything as long as your
fingers aren't wet.

As for keeping the voltage down to run a Fuji circuit I would recommend a voltage regulator circuit.
You need a 1.5 volt zener diode and a transistor to make one.
Lots of voltage regulator schematics on the internet.

Who Told you that ? Your wrong . 2 volts will knock you on your ass at 650 amps with Moist hands or just normal sweat . I know i felt it . Amperage is the killer here not voltage .. . Yea as long as you have high resistance you might not feel it with Completely dry hands but most people have a low resistance !
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 03, 2009, 02:39:40 PM

Quote from: altrez on June 03, 2009, 07:04:13 AM
I will get that information for you this weekend jeanna.

Oh, thank you, A;trez.
I appreciate that.

QuoteI will also get some readings with my LHR meter for the coils.

What is an LHR meter?

QuoteHows things going on your end?

I am thinking about starting a new joule thief thread specifically on using the joule thief to produce AC then continue to use it as AC.

Most of the wonderful folks here are looking in other directions and I would like to concentrate on AC. Maybe others who also want to look at this as a producer of AC will join.

It does not mean I will leave this thread anymore than I left either localjoe's or Bill's earth battery threads, just a better concentration.

Someone a hundred posts ago said we just didn't know how ac circuits work. I believe this is true. I didn't make note of the link that person provided, so I will go back to studying what the master... Tesla had to say.

For today or maybe this week:

My plan is to wind some secondaries in a slightly different way. I am thinking of winding one in the way MK1 does, but with a smaller number of turns and adding another one made in a similar way to the same toroid.

I am really not happy with the high flux toroids I bought and although they have more room, they may just take so much wire for primary turns there is again no more room left for a big secondary to produce over 270 volts.

The sun is blazing again today. I need to water my plants 4 or 5 times a day, so I better go do that now!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 03, 2009, 02:49:35 PM

Quote from: xee2 on June 02, 2009, 09:03:24 PM
@Pirate88179

I would not want to see you get hurt so I think you need to do some research before you use a 650 F capacitor. If charged to 2 volts it can deliver a million amps for a millisecond if it has low internal resistance. If you do not think a million amps can do much damage in a millisecond I think you will soon be educated.

I agree totaly . . Abbarue said he would put the two volt cap in his mouth . Abbarue i guess you would like to be cremated ;) 2 volts can kill you dude at high amperage . You will get the crap shocked out of you with a car 12 volt battery .. Just wet you hands and spark the wire on it . you will see . Do you agree Xee ?

BTW it was NOP that said 1 farad = one amp not me . He seems to know it all about the math so i was just going by his words that 650 farads is 650 amps . I have to agree that there is more than 9 amps in that cap a lot more . It will defiantly release over 600 amps in one second if shorted or held with your lips ;D.

Gadget

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 03, 2009, 02:56:21 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on June 03, 2009, 02:39:16 PM
Who Told you that ? Your wrong . @ volts will knock you on your ass at 650 amps with Moist hands . I know i felt it . Amperage is the killer here not voltage ..
Gadget

The reason people die from this powerful electricity is because it confuses the heart signal.

If you touch one of these high (volts or high amps) supercaps with both hands the powerful pulse can go across your heart and confuse the signal. If you keep one hand behind your back so you are not tempted to use it, you will not die.

You could be burned, however.
If the thing when it shorts can melt a thick wire, it could burn your fingers as they touch the leads and short them across your skin.

Here is an amazing story from my childhood:

My father was a doctor who spent years reconstructing a man's arm after a high tension accident.
The man who knew what he was doing because he worked on those wires, slipped and instinctively grabbed a wire.
The muscles in his arm were activated, because it is electrical charge in the body that normally activates the muscles, and his hand grabbed the wire and would not let go until the entire hand was charred and some fingers were gone ...(I was little and don't know all the details)

My father eventually managed to give the man a human claw by lengthening tendons and borrowing and connecting muscles from elsewhere. I remember hearing that the man had to use a muscle that normally does one thing to do something else. His brain had to re-learn this.

As you can guess I was fascinated by this.

So, be careful.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 03, 2009, 02:56:46 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 03, 2009, 11:31:58 AM
After writing this it occured to me that I could keep the battery from having to both charge and discharge each cycle by placing a LARGE cap across the battery .
In theory I should be able to remove the battery at any time .......but I can
;t
With the cap across the battery I can run the JT several times faster .
I think what is limiting me now is the power of each pulse .
I think I am doing this the hard way .
If I was driving a large load ........like a few dozen LEDs I would have large pulses to run through my coils .
I am using the coils themselves as my load right now .
It might actually be easier to get it to charge while running a real load .

gary

Gary,

Put a load on that JT and you will have it. I have found that when I have a heavy load on the circuit is when I get the best charging.

And the biggest voltage spikes I checked this with my scope as well. I can tune the JT with a pot and get it charging every time now.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 03, 2009, 03:13:32 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 03, 2009, 02:39:40 PM
Oh, thank you, A;trez.
I appreciate that.
What is an LHR meter?

I am thinking about starting a new joule thief thread specifically on using the joule thief to produce AC then continue to use it as AC.

Most of the wonderful folks here are looking in other directions and I would like to concentrate on AC. Maybe others who also want to look at this as a producer of AC will join.

It does not mean I will leave this thread anymore than I left either localjoe's or Bill's earth battery threads, just a better concentration.

Someone a hundred posts ago said we just didn't know how ac circuits work. I believe this is true. I didn't make note of the link that person provided, so I will go back to studying what the master... Tesla had to say.

For today or maybe this week:

My plan is to wind some secondaries in a slightly different way. I am thinking of winding one in the way MK1 does, but with a smaller number of turns and adding another one made in a similar way to the same toroid.

I am really not happy with the high flux toroids I bought and although they have more room, they may just take so much wire for primary turns there is again no more room left for a big secondary to produce over 270 volts.

The sun is blazing again today. I need to water my plants 4 or 5 times a day, so I better go do that now!

jeanna

I am sorry LCR meter :) I was half asleep when I wrote that lol. I would love to have a thread dedicated to AC I will post for sure. That is a great idea!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 03, 2009, 03:17:25 PM

Quote from: altrez on June 02, 2009, 09:57:29 PM
@all

Today I got a copy of Free Energy Generation 20 Bedini-Bearden years and I must say its a great book. Off topic I know just wanted to post that bit of info :)

-Altrez

Yes it is . i have my copy all nice and shiny too . you learn a lot in it . ! 50 bucks is hight but it was worth it . I proceeded to make a self runner with that info .

Gadget

@ Pirate . Dr Stiffler Is to scientific plus this is not a super cap this is the newest technology Ultra BOOSTCAP . Different makup altogether than a super cap But you know about that guy you can't argue with him cause he will go away and pout and then come back and make a long speech about how uneducated and stupid we are so .. As far as his Sec its an unshielded Hf Transmitter and I am Building one cause i like unshielded Hv RF . Same stuff Cb's put out on the antenna . you can light a hundred tube florescents with only one end on a CB or HAM antenna My goal there is to run it off a Jt 1 volter instead of 12 volts and Put a Dish to beam the Rf o a remote location , 12 feet away . :). .
And as far as the Maxwell Ultracaps being Different in that they are more powerfull and are considered Lithium Battery Replacments . You can hook up as many as you like in series or parallel . Here a Quote from Maxwell :Maxwell Technologies, Inc.â€™s BOOSTCAPÂ® ultracapacitors in series or parallel.1 They are no different than the principles one would use to interconnect any high-current energy storage cell, and should be familiar to anyone who has interconnected batteries.

SO there you go . One More Think . Thes caps can be OVERCHARGED just like any other cap . A cap will not stop at its rated Voltage . For instance if we have a Jt put out 20 volts dc we can fill a 100 volt cap up . They don't just stop at the input voltage and yes adding a diode in these will slow down the charge rate and you will notice they don't charge up like they do without a diode . But As Jim said to Pirate its agood idea to keep this in the house and put a diode on it to keep the Eb current low rather than at 650 amps or whatever.

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 03, 2009, 04:42:38 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on June 03, 2009, 03:17:25 PM
Yes it is . i have my copy all nice and shiny too . you learn a lot in it . ! 50 bucks is hight but it was worth it . I proceeded to make a self runner with that info .

Gadget

They don't just stop at the input voltage

Gadget

Wow that shows how much I know. I was sure that a cap would not charge higher then its input voltage? So you are saying that any cap will keep charging from a low volt source until its full?

So I can take my 1.2 volt battery and charge a 330v cap? I have never got that to work?

Edit:

Well if I can take a 1.2volt JT and charge lets say that Maxwell cap to 2.7 and its full 650F is that not OU? I just tried on a fugi cap and it stops at what the source voltage is. I must be doing something wrong?

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 03, 2009, 05:40:27 PM

Quote from: altrez on June 03, 2009, 04:42:38 PM
Wow that shows how much I know. I was sure that a cap would not charge higher then its input voltage? So you are saying that any cap will keep charging from a low volt source until its full?

So I can take my 1.2 volt battery and charge a 330v cap? I have never got that to work?

Edit:

Well if I can take a 1.2volt JT and charge lets say that Maxwell cap to 2.7 and its full 650F is that not OU? I just tried on a fugi cap and it stops at what the source voltage is. I must be doing something wrong?

-Altrez

Altrez as i was in the tv business i have seen that any cap that is charged over its rating will break down ,explode leak ,hiss,pop, I have see them blow like an m80 and i have seen them fly in to a million pieces of paper and foil like confetti and i have seen the pop off pop on a few after they swell up . A cap can be charged beyond its rating and go poof !
Mostly everybody here a few hundred pages ago took the output of a jt and rectified it and measured it . it was a given voltage lets say 15 volts . then take an electrolytic cap and watch it charge way beyond that voltag .thats what im saying and No the cap once charged to its rating will still keep charging until its Dialectic Breaks down and sometimes they explode . That rating is the maximum safe Voltage the cap will hold . it still can be charged higher until it pops .
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on June 03, 2009, 06:06:53 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 03, 2009, 12:38:57 AM
Ah that means I ought to check out the thing I noticed tonight. The dc on the EB was 0.00v today and 0.66v a couple of days ago, but both days the scope said the voltage was peak to peak 20mV and the frequency was 2.4MHz. The 2 copper pipes had a voltage difference tonight of 0.023v. This is very close to the voltage above the dc. I will look again this week

So, do I understand this correctly? Bill should be able to collect the dc voltage that is in his area but the ac will be lost except for the peaks that are off center?

According to my scope, the peaks are pretty much centered with this ac element from the earth.- if that is what it is.

yes.

@Pirate88179
a cap, at 2.7volts, have 1755 coulomb or 1755 amps of energy in it.

1 ampere = 1 coulomb/second = 1 watt/volt

but note that as you drain the cap, the voltage will go lower.

about caps over voltage, AbbaRue is right.
caps can be over charged.
if the source voltage is higher then the cap's rating.
it will blow up if allowed to over charge.
i was assuming that the voltage of your EB was lower then the rating of your ultracap.

a 2.5volts zener diode, or, at least 4 diodes in series connected across the cap terminals should be use.

Quote from: resonanceman on June 03, 2009, 10:20:03 AM
Current teaching is something like if you have a transformer with 2 equal secondarys the current from the input will be divided between those secondarys .......end of story . ( edit .... for the skeptics ....... I know that there are losses such as eddy currents in any transformer .... we are not talking about losses here . )

even without losses, it does not work like you said.

don't worry, i won't go very far on this subject.
i will just give you an example that i hope will help you understand.

what happen when you connect resistors in series ?

is the current splited between them ?
the answere to this one is: no
resistor in series are voltage divider, not current divider.

the same thing happen with coils.
what is different with coils is that the "resistance" is is in fact impedance.
that mean that the resistance of a coils is not only determine by the load on it, it also change with the frequency.

Quote from: gadgetmall on June 03, 2009, 02:49:35 PM
BTW it was NOP that said 1 farad = one amp not me . He seems to know it all about the math so i was just going by his words that 650 farads is 650 amps . I have to agree that there is more than 9 amps in that cap a lot more . It will defiantly release over 600 amps in one second if shorted or held with your lips ;D.

i am just a human, i do make mistake sometimes and i am the first to be sorry of that mistake.
that mistake costed me a few transistors.
i was having 107 times more amps in my cap then what i was thinking it had...

at 2.7volts 650F, the cap has 1755 amps in it, if it is discharged in 1 second.

but if you knew it, why did you not rectified me ?

i will stand corrected and admit i was wrong by anyone that can prove me wrong with a formula as an example or detail(s) of what i might have fergot.

the last thing i want is to spread is disinfos.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 03, 2009, 06:50:59 PM

@ Gadgetmall:

Thanks, this is good information to have. As I said, I am in uncharted waters here (aye) as far as my knowledge goes.

The reason I was concerned about overcharging the cap is that the EB by itself puts out 1.95 volts so there should be no problem. Then, after leaving it hooked to the monstercap overnight, the voltage on the cap was pushing 2.5 volts. I thought it would stop at around 2 volts but it did not. That is what Dr. Stiffler was trying to tell me. He was saying I can't have more volts in the cap than my EB puts out without it....yet....there it is and I am looking at it, almost 2.5 volts in the cap. This is why I get confused when different folks say different things. I am keeping an eye on the cap and it has not gone over 2.5 volts yet so maybe that is where it will stay. I will keep checking it.

Just for the heck of it, I disconnected the cap from the EB and checked the EB's voltage........1.95 vdc!! The cap without the EB is at 2.5 volts!!! All I know is that is what it reads and I have no formulas or laws to quote why this is or might be. As I mentioned before, it may be possible that under a load (the maxcap) the EB may increase the output a bit to compensate. Stubblefield mentioned something about this several times. (I really don't know) I am going to mount a heatsink on the Fuji and have a go at it soon, maybe even later tonight if it stops raining.

Thanks for all of your help and information. I listed a link to your maxcap page on your website on my video side bar so hopefully, you will get some more inquiries.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 03, 2009, 07:06:44 PM

@ altrez

Quote from: altrez on June 03, 2009, 04:42:38 PM
Wow that shows how much I know. I was sure that a cap would not charge higher then its input voltage? So you are saying that any cap will keep charging from a low volt source until its full?

So I can take my 1.2 volt battery and charge a 330v cap? I have never got that to work?

Edit:

Well if I can take a 1.2volt JT and charge lets say that Maxwell cap to 2.7 and its full 650F is that not OU? I just tried on a fugi cap and it stops at what the source voltage is. I must be doing something wrong?

-Altrez

A capacitor can not be charged to a higher voltage than the charging voltage. But it can be charged to higher voltage than spec - at which point it may explode. Charge in cap = Coulombs = 0.5 x farads X volts squared. Amps = Coulombs/seconds. Two Coulombs of charge can provide about one amps for one second, 10 amps for 1/10th second, or 1000 amps for one millisecond. The internal resistance of the capacitor limits how fast charge (current) can be removed from it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on June 03, 2009, 07:14:47 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on June 03, 2009, 03:17:25 PM
Thes caps can be OVERCHARGED just like any other cap . A cap will not stop at its rated Voltage . For instance if we have a Jt put out 2 volts dc we can fill a 100 volt cap up . They don't just stop at the input voltage and yes adding a diode in these will slow down the charge rate and you will notice they don't charge up like they do without a diode . But As Jim said to Pirate its agood idea to keep this in the house and put a diode on it to keep the Eb current low rather than at 650 amps or whatever.

you are right about caps overcharge.
they will blow if the source voltage is some % higher then the rating.
but a cap will not charge higher then the source provide.

at the low voltage/amps of an EB, the diode(s) should be connected accross the cap to limit the voltage.
by allowing over voltage to disipate through the diode(s) the cap will be protected, even if the EB voltage reach 100 volts.
if the current get higher then what the diode(s) alone can disipate, a suitable resistor should be add in series with them but while using more capable diodes.

an other solution is to add caps in series.
but it will cost in capacitance

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 03, 2009, 07:27:06 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on June 03, 2009, 07:14:47 PM
if the current get higher then what the diode(s) alone can disipate,

If the current gets higher than what the diode(s) alone can disipate, then that is a very amazing EB.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 03, 2009, 07:51:40 PM

@Bill,
I was reminded today about the sometimes wild fluctuations in an EB.

Today I put the dmm on it and it started at0.024v and continued to rise to 0.101v and when I returned from looking at the scope elsewhere, the voltage was down again to 0.043v

I am pretty sure your cap in this instance would be holding 0.101v because it would have instantly raised its voltage to the high number and without something being there to remove the voltage, that voltage would still be there as it accumulates more amps over time.

The funny thing as I remember is that if there is a load it will pull more, but even without that element, I think this explains that your ground will peak to 2.5v so briefly that the dmm cannot see it, but the cap never lies.

I had this happen with a MK1.
The highest reading I could get on even the scope was well below the amount a fuji cap could collect.

But the cap is not capable of getting any higher than the highest voltage going across the leads.

Someone please correct this if I am wrong.

for what this is worth,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 03, 2009, 08:12:55 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on June 03, 2009, 06:06:53 PM
yes.

@Pirate88179
a cap, at 2.7volts, have 1755 coulomb or 1755 amps of energy in it.

1 ampere = 1 coulomb/second = 1 watt/volt

but note that as you drain the cap, the voltage will go lower.

about caps over voltage, AbbaRue is right.
caps can be over charged.
if the source voltage is higher then the cap's rating.
it will blow up if allowed to over charge.
i was assuming that the voltage of your EB was lower then the rating of your ultracap.

i am just a human, i do make mistake sometimes and i am the first to be sorry of that mistake.
that mistake costed me a few transistors.
i was having 107 times more amps in my cap then what i was thinking it had...

at 2.7volts 650F, the cap has 1755 amps in it, if it is discharged in 1 second.

but if you knew it, why did you not rectified me ?

i will stand corrected and admit i was wrong by anyone that can prove me wrong with a formula as an example or detail(s) of what i might have fergot.

the last thing i want is to spread is disinfos.

Hi NOp / Actually it was me that said a cap could over charge not abbarue . abbarue said QUOTE :AbbaRue

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Re: Jule Thief
Â« Reply #6739 on: June 02, 2009, 07:45:51 PM Â»

* Reply with quoteQuote

@Pirate88179
You don't need to worry about shock danger when working with low
voltages like 2 volts. I doesn't matter how many amps you have.
You could stick your tongue across that super cap when it is fully charged
and you would just feel a tingle on your tongue.
Even 12 volts is safe to handle. You can touch the 2 terminals of a 12 volt
battery with your fingers without feeling anything as long as your
fingers aren't wet.
. He is DEAD Wrong . and second Dude , I didn't know I was Just passing what you said as you had already had a conversation about it before with someone else way back and and i thought it was fact being you Correct everyone like a Physics teacher and an EE .Yes i know you are Human and make mistakes and spread disinformation with no i'll intent . It cool and now we both know . . :o

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on June 03, 2009, 08:42:08 PM

@all

I made the original self charger to work again using a circuit I had called YES Gate / NOT Gate.

Maybe one of those people with big capacitors want to give it a try starting with a charged capacitor, to see if it keeps the capacitor charged.

If anyone wants to verify the self charger, this is the repaired version.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 03, 2009, 08:45:54 PM

@ALL
Supercap warning,
Time for another cartoon folks ;D

Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 02, 2009, 06:54:39 PM
Artic_Knight:
There is a stern warning on the caps that if the polarity is not correct, it can explode with great force and cause damage or injury. So, I was very careful in this.

These supercaps are really cool.

Bill

During my electrical apprenticeship there was a tradesman out in the back shed, working on an airconditioner. We heard a loud explosion, next we saw he and inside the shed was covered in silver paper, he was blinded by the flash, deafened by the boom, shaking like a leaf.
They are dangerous, so don't reverse the polarity.
Always check if the cap is leaking or has a bulging top

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on June 03, 2009, 08:54:50 PM

Quote from: electricme on June 03, 2009, 08:45:54 PM
@ALL
Supercap warning,
Time for another cartoon folks ;D

During my electrical apprenticeship there was a tradesman out in the back shed, working on an airconditioner. We heard a loud explosion, next we saw he and inside the shed was covered in silver paper, he was blinded by the flash, deafened by the boom, shaking like a leaf.
They are dangerous, so don't reverse the polarity.
Always check if the cap is leaking or has a bulging top

jim

I was working with an HHO with a pulse width modulator (PWM) and it was new. I was running it with a battery charger at just 2 amps.
Suddenly it began to hiss, then it whistle and finally it explode with a very loud bang and let me confused and covered with little pieces of paper.

It was a tremendous and scary experience.

The one that exploded on me was just a mere 47uf 16v...

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 03, 2009, 09:14:57 PM

@all

Yes that is how I understood a cap to work. It can NOT go higher then the source voltage so if you have a 2volt EB an a 100 volt cap the cap will only charge up to 2 volts and it will not be full. So if you charged a 2.5v cap with 650F to 1 volt it would not be at full power.

On the flip side if I put 1000 volts into that 2.7 volt cap it would go BANG#@!@!@#!@

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 03, 2009, 09:16:27 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 03, 2009, 06:50:59 PM
@ Gadgetmall:

Thanks, this is good information to have. As I said, I am in uncharted waters here (aye) as far as my knowledge goes.

The reason I was concerned about overcharging the cap is that the EB by itself puts out 1.95 volts so there should be no problem. Then, after leaving it hooked to the monstercap overnight, the voltage on the cap was pushing 2.5 volts. I thought it would stop at around 2 volts but it did not. That is what Dr. Stiffler was trying to tell me. He was saying I can't have more volts in the cap than my EB puts out without it....yet....there it is and I am looking at it, almost 2.5 volts in the cap. This is why I get confused when different folks say different things. I am keeping an eye on the cap and it has not gone over 2.5 volts yet so maybe that is where it will stay. I will keep checking it.

Just for the heck of it, I disconnected the cap from the EB and checked the EB's voltage........1.95 vdc!! The cap without the EB is at 2.5 volts!!! All I know is that is what it reads and I have no formulas or laws to quote why this is or might be. As I mentioned before, it may be possible that under a load (the maxcap) the EB may increase the output a bit to compensate. Stubblefield mentioned something about this several times. (I really don't know) I am going to mount a heatsink on the Fuji and have a go at it soon, maybe even later tonight if it stops raining.

Thanks for all of your help and information. I listed a link to your maxcap page on your website on my video side bar so hopefully, you will get some more inquiries.

Bill

Thanks P{irate . And all i know is from the 30 +years a experience with Tronics . i hardly remember College but i remember the Experience of working and all i can do is share that and learn from you guys. . I do recommend putting an led or a small incandesant light bulb lamp in series with the fugi
cause you might blow the windings in that little transformer before you blow the transistor . Thats pushing it but i know it will light 1000 leds now :) And Congratulations on running a Bedini . Man I'm Jealous . You Keep on Keepin on though as its great and i want one of those Smacking magnet motors . I got the Egg magnets . I have no idea where to start but i want a 1 volt bedini or Newman . That would be some science project . Excuse me i was corrected that was 1770- amps . Ahhmmm.. There is no way to discharge that cap in one second so it got plenty of Kick there Ma Friend . ;)

@Jesus .Hi . I'm making it . What toroid are you using if i might ask without hunting thru miles of threads Sir ? .

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 03, 2009, 09:42:17 PM

Quote from: altrez on June 03, 2009, 09:14:57 PM
@all

Yes that is how I understood a cap to work. It can NOT go higher then the source voltage so if you have a 2volt EB an a 100 volt cap the cap will only charge up to 2 volts and it will not be full. So if you charged a 2.5v cap with 650F to 1 volt it would not be at full power.

On the flip side if I put 1000 volts into that 2.7 volt cap it would go BANG#@!@!@#!@

-Altrez

Actually No if you monitor the voltage while you charge it with 1000 volts and stop at the rated voltage . :)

Also About the cap not going higher than the source voltage .
Someone Explain why i can take a Jt with a secondary . rectify it and measure the volts output , say 15 volts then put a fugi cap acrossit and it builds up 3 time as high ? I know this to be True from experience with them . Is it the Spikes i cannot read on the meter ?

Gadget

Flabbergasted

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on June 03, 2009, 09:43:42 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on June 02, 2009, 11:44:22 PM

He says that there is not much energy stored in my cap at all. I don't know enough to argue with himbut look at what I was able to do with just two 10 farad caps and now I won't be able to do much with 650? This makes no sense to me at all. He is saying I will only have milliwatts for output and again, I find this very hard to believe.
As for the part about someone telling me the cap will continue to charge above my input voltage, well, I have seen that with my own eyes and so no one had to tell me anything. 1.95 vdc input from EB and now over 2.4 vdc on the supercap and climbing. Something or someone is not correct here.

Bill
even at low volts, at high amps, there are risks of injuries.
ex: burns and also flashes that can damage your eyes

a cap, once full, can't accept more energy.
your super cap will stop storing energy at ~2.7volts provided your voltage source can go that high.

lol
now i know why i keept blowing transistors.
i forgotted that 1 farad = 1 coulomb/ 1 volts = 1 amp/second.
the thing is that i posted about this not long ago in an other tread, about units conversion.
but i did not made the relation with my blown out transistors at that time.

thanks, you and mr. Stiffler

bill i have to say that you cant listen to people, i have found in this world that i cannot trust anyone or anything not even myself but that i must prove it myself to know. and yes i said i dont trust my self but have to prove it to myself. i have changed my thoughts soo many times that i see even i make blind assumptions sometimes and have to prove it.

that being said, if someone tells you something, go prove it! right or wrong devise a way to prove it!

i will honestly say that a cap will only charge in volts what it is supplied so that means your cap is getting 2.7 volts. since your not seeing it on a scope reading that tells me that the additional voltage is hidden in temperary spikes. a simple way you can prove it is to scope the ground. im fairly certain that these spikes roll over the planet with the magnetic lines much like waves in an ocean.

now for the energy density of your 650f cap. we know that a single farad is one amp for one second right? so we multiply the 2.7 times 650 and we get 1755 now keeping to our rate of measurement that is watts second. to get watts hour we divide by 60^2 (60 seconds times 60 minutes or sixty to the power of 2 equals 3600) so divide 1755 by 3600 and you get 0.4875 watt hours so that cap stores half a watt under normal measurments. yes its low but consider the batteries 2700mah thats 2.7a hours. so 1.5 x 2.7 = 4 watts. if the batteries are rechargable then 1.2 x 2.7 = 3.24 watts hours

caps unfortunately never have really stored that much energy, but if you consider they are a "static" charge then its a crap ton! caps do not have a chemical reaction! thats why they last for so much longer than batteries!

the reason you think they store so much more is because you have been able to really stretch the work you get done with them! first law of going green is energy conservation and thats one thing this forum has really been able to achieve!

i must say if anyone scopes a earth battery please post a pic! that is something i would love to see!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 03, 2009, 09:45:46 PM

Quote from: altrez on June 03, 2009, 02:56:46 PM
Gary,

Put a load on that JT and you will have it. I have found that when I have a heavy load on the circuit is when I get the best charging.

And the biggest voltage spikes I checked this with my scope as well. I can tune the JT with a pot and get it charging every time now.

-Altrez

Altrez

I agree with you ........

I guess I like dong it the hard way .

I want to make a portable battery charger ...... I want to be able to attach the charger to the back side of a AA battery holder .
I want the charger to be no larger than the AA battery .

I can't think of a load that would work with this particular project.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 03, 2009, 09:54:39 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on June 03, 2009, 09:43:42 PM
bill i have to say that you cant listen to people, i have found in this world that i cannot trust anyone or anything not even myself but that i must prove it myself to know. and yes i said i dont trust my self but have to prove it to myself. i have changed my thoughts soo many times that i see even i make blind assumptions sometimes and have to prove it.

that being said, if someone tells you something, go prove it! right or wrong devise a way to prove it!

i will honestly say that a cap will only charge in volts what it is supplied so that means your cap is getting 2.7 volts. since your not seeing it on a scope reading that tells me that the additional voltage is hidden in temperary spikes. a simple way you can prove it is to scope the ground. im fairly certain that these spikes roll over the planet with the magnetic lines much like waves in an ocean.

now for the energy density of your 650f cap. we know that a single farad is one amp for one second right? so we multiply the 2.7 times 650 and we get 1755 now keeping to our rate of measurement that is watts second. to get watts hour we divide by 60^2 (60 seconds times 60 minutes or sixty to the power of 2 equals 3600) so divide 1755 by 3600 and you get 0.4875 watt hours so that cap stores half a watt under normal measurments. yes its low but consider the batteries 2700mah thats 2.7a hours. so 1.5 x 2.7 = 4 watts. if the batteries are rechargable then 1.2 x 2.7 = 3.24 watts hours

caps unfortunately never have really stored that much energy, but if you consider they are a "static" charge then its a crap ton! caps do not have a chemical reaction! thats why they last for so much longer than batteries!

the reason you think they store so much more is because you have been able to really stretch the work you get done with them! first law of going green is energy conservation and thats one thing this forum has really been able to achieve!

i must say if anyone scopes a earth battery please post a pic! that is something i would love to see!

Artic These Ultra caps are chemical and contain Electrolyte . They are far stronger than a car battery when charged to 2,7 volts . Again these are not super caps They are new technology and are replacing Lithium Ion batteries in Electric Vehicles . However they can be recharged 1 million times and can be recharged at the same rate of discharge .
The Electric car manufactures have devised a way to recharge them quickly while braking . Cool.
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on June 03, 2009, 09:55:10 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on June 03, 2009, 09:16:27 PM
...
@Jesus .Hi . I'm making it . What toroid are you using if i might ask without hunting thru miles of threads Sir ? .

Gadget

It is the same one I used on the original circuit.
I just dont know how it is called.
I pulled it out from the power supply cable of a monitor I had.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 03, 2009, 10:03:08 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on June 03, 2009, 09:55:10 PM
It is the same one I used on the original circuit.
I just dont know how it is called.
I pulled it out from the power supply cable of a monitor I had.

Jesus

Cool thank you . This is one of those Big Ferrite Chokes . I got one or two . Nice. good work by the way . fantastic .

GB

Albert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 03, 2009, 10:28:23 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on June 03, 2009, 09:43:42 PM

i must say if anyone scopes a earth battery please post a pic! that is something i would love to see!

Hey Art,

try this:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3500.msg184234#new (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3500.msg184234#new)
it is reply 2274

a scope of a EB.
;)

jeanna

edit
the markers are slightly too close. I probably was 2.4MHz not 2.5MHz. Either way it is there today too. And on the copper to copper today too 2.22MHz!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on June 03, 2009, 10:36:11 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on June 03, 2009, 09:42:17 PM
Actually No if you monitor the voltage while you charge it with 1000 volts and stop at the rated voltage . :)

Also About the cap not going higher than the source voltage .
Someone Explain why i can take a Jt with a secondary . rectify it and measure the volts output , say 15 volts then put a fugi cap acrossit and it builds up 3 time as high ? I know this to be True from experience with them . Is it the Spikes i cannot read on the meter ?

Gadget

Flabbergasted

Yes, it is definitely from the spikes.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on June 03, 2009, 10:40:55 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on June 03, 2009, 08:12:55 PM
Hi NOp / Actually it was me that said a cap could over charge not abbarue .

oops
you are right, you was the first to say it.
i was focussing my mind on abbarue suggestion of using a zener diode and ended up giving the credit to him.

sorry about that.

i do agree with you on the danger, even with low voltage.
amps can injure you badly and in some cases even kill you.

you must understand something about me.
30 years have pass since i learned electronic.
some of it, i use from time to time, mostly the troubleshooting part whitch i use regularly.
i do computers repair for others as a hobby, but no other appliances.
well, some of my own, if i can troubleshoot it with only a multimeter.
i did retained most of what i learned, i think..., but fergot some details.
the primary reason why i fergotted some details is that i never made electronic my profession.
the secondary reason is, did i really understood all of what i was teached ?

so i encourage everyone to double check what i am writing, questions about it.
once someone point the detail i am missing, it is easy for me to reconize it for what it is(if electronic terms are used that is).
it is like ridding a bicycle, you don't really completely forget how it work, event after many years.

@all
about measuring with multimeters and scope.

there a lots of cases where multimeters will give you measurements that are "not accurate".

the output of a diode or a diode bridge is not really DC.
it is pulsed DC .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rectified_waves.png
it is to be expected to see such different result simply because of that fact.
the measurement are averages, if there is no cap in parallel to the source.
this average is still not the true RMS value, duty cycle and rate must also be taken into consideration.
but a cap will charge to the peeks voltage if it is not allowed to discharge.

for scopes i am not sure.
it might have to do with the sampling rate of digital scopes.
meanning the peeks are sometime so fast that some digital scopes can't see them.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 03, 2009, 11:40:19 PM

@ gadgetmall

Quote from: gadgetmall on June 03, 2009, 09:42:17 PM
Is it the Spikes i cannot read on the meter ?

Yes.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 04, 2009, 12:08:58 AM

@ All thanks guys .
I am Getting ready for the Big Earth Battery Show in The Black Hills and have most of The Light inventions ready . I'm too tired to snap and edit pictures tonight but i have two units that's are running 25 leds on a 12 foot wire drawing 2 ma and running on dead battery's last i checked the volts were .3 this is with one of My 300 hfe .2 volt germanium's . the other one is self charge assisted and is drawing 9 ma with a standard 2n3904 and 25 leds in a bundle flower . these are all Christmas lights i hacked and soldered in parallel . I also have a Hv camera circuit from goldmine i tuned to 2 ma and its running a bunch of leds also . All this will be tied on one MAx Ultraboost cap fed with the earth battery and My nighttime solar switcher/Charge regulator. ,, I guess i will try and make that 450 mile trip up there for Greg At ARSF Who has Supplied all the Graphs and data logger results and Supplies . .
The Final Analysis is this . there is Galvanic current and there is Magnetic Current . There is a sweet spot to get the most voltage and the most current . Electrodes placed 20 feet apart produce the Magnetic ley Current and Voltage . 4.8 Volts at a few Nano amps . Moving the electrodes Close together from one to three feet produce a maximium of 2 volts and current as high as 15 milliamps with the electrodes we used . So in bewteen that is your higher voltage and lower current . It depends also on Moisture ,an Doused Ley lines nad material of the Rods . Carbon Fiber Produces more Volts but less Current . Carbon (Pure) Produces the most Current as does Magnesium . Copper is next .. I know that the mass of the positive electrode increases the current . SO start Getting Some Magnisium Rims . I have the Carbon From The Main World Wide Manufacture who make them for everyone in the world . up tp 6 inches round and 4 foot long . (power) Thats all for tonight ..

Sweet Electric Dreams

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 04, 2009, 12:21:15 AM

@Bill, and ALL.
All last night you guys have been very busy indeed.
I was about to reply on this cap topic (last few pages) when I saw here that Jeanna has stumbled on the answer.

Quote from: jeanna on June 03, 2009, 07:51:40 PM
@Bill,
I was reminded today about the sometimes wild fluctuations in an EB.

Today I put the dmm on it and it started at0.024v and continued to rise to 0.101v and when I returned from looking at the scope elsewhere, the voltage was down again to 0.043v

I am pretty sure your cap in this instance would be holding 0.101v because it would have instantly raised its voltage to the high number and without something being there to remove the voltage, that voltage would still be there as it accumulates more amps over time.

The funny thing as I remember is that if there is a load it will pull more, but even without that element, I think this explains that your ground will peak to 2.5v so briefly that the dmm cannot see it, but the cap never lies.

I had this happen with a MK1.
The highest reading I could get on even the scope was well below the amount a fuji cap could collect.

But the cap is not capable of getting any higher than the highest voltage going across the leads.

Someone please correct this if I am wrong.

for what this is worth,

jeanna

Exactly, Jeanna, in the EB case, way back in the Stubblefield forums I mentioned I had seen wild fluxtations in my scope screen, it was a very complex pattern, but its "amplitude" would raise and lower over time, sometimes, it would go at a snales pase, other times it was so fast I almost missed it.

So the Cap or SC just collects the "hi" pulses, whether they are there for a milli second or minutes or hours.
So Bill, if you seem to have a higher voltage in your SC, but your DMM says the EB output, is lower, then the pulses as Jeanna says, just mabe have been so quick the DMM didnt catch them.

If your DMM has a "hold" feature, then you could set it to catch the highest pulse and freeze it.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 04, 2009, 01:02:14 AM

@Artic_Night,
OK, I just put my cro on my earth battery for you, the Super cap is disconnected.

Quote from: Artic_Knight on June 03, 2009, 09:43:42 PM
if anyone scopes a earth battery please post a pic! that is something i would love to see!

I can go one better mate, try clicking on my tiny video. ;D

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 04, 2009, 01:15:58 AM

Here are some photos of my Fuji JT that I enclosed inside of an 8mm video tape case. maybe this will cut down on my shocks, ha ha.

Thanks to all for explaining why I have 2.5 volts on my cap with 1.95 input. I believe Jeanna said it first, but thanks to the others as well. I believe this explains it exactly. Spikes to fast for my DMM to "see" but the cap does not lie and will charge to the highest input voltage including the spikes. This now makes total sense and I am not at odds with the science and what I have been seeing. I love it when I learn something and it fits my visual reality and the real world, ha ha.

Jim:

I will watch your vid after I post these photos. I'll bet that is interesting. I want to see how that compares to Jeanna's shots.

Thanks again to all. Gadget, good luck at the demonstration. May the light be with you, ha ha. Your stuff will work fine. Take some pics and post them here when you return. We would love to see them.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 04, 2009, 01:21:31 AM

Jim:

Man, that is all over the place but it appears to be consistently all over the place, if that is even possible. If mine looks anything like that no wonder my DMM can't read the spikes. It almost looks like a Bedini or JT circuit but the spikes are not as dramatic. Thank you so much for posting this. I have learned so much today my head might explode like an over loaded cap.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 04, 2009, 01:32:31 AM

@Bill,
That is the stile n way to go, nice lime green, very nice indeed.
I'm sure your fingers will be safe from shocks now Bill, well done.

@Jeanna,
I went and took a look at your scope of your earth battery output, its bit different to mine, but I have seen the same on my scope at times, does your EB traceing move around like that seen in my TWV?

@Gadgetmall,
Good luck when you travel to your destination, safe travelling, and I hope many buy your goods and wares.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 04, 2009, 01:43:43 AM

@All
This video was taken just about a half hour from the previous one.
Here you will be able to see just how much the waveform has changed from the 1st one.

I have not altered any settings on the CRO.
The flickering is a bad connection, probably its on the EB clip to a electrode in the ground.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 04, 2009, 02:16:41 AM

@All
Here is another CRO movie, it's the 3rd one I have done today of my EB output, the waveforms have changed further again slightly.
This time I have altered the image somewhat to show the Triangle waveform which we have seen on Jeannas scope on Bills Stubblefield Earth Battery Forum.
I then return my scope settings back to their original settings.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 04, 2009, 02:30:37 AM

Jim:

What did you change to make that waveform look more like Jeanna's? Are you seeing the same general range of Hz she was seeing? After a little more testing with my scope so I get to know it a little better, I will drag it outside and see what mine looks like. I wonder if all of them will be a little different? Or, will the frequency of all of ours be similar? Very good work Jim, thank you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 04, 2009, 06:47:26 AM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 03, 2009, 09:45:46 PM

Altrez

I agree with you ........

I guess I like dong it the hard way .

I want to make a portable battery charger ...... I want to be able to attach the charger to the back side of a AA battery holder .
I want the charger to be no larger than the AA battery .

I can't think of a load that would work with this particular project.

gary

Try a resistor across a pickup coil. You could make it small. I tested the concept for you and it works :)

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 04, 2009, 07:55:25 AM

Quote from: altrez on June 04, 2009, 06:47:26 AM
Try a resistor across a pickup coil. You could make it small. I tested the concept for you and it works :)

-Altrez

Altrez

Great idea :)

It appeares to be charging nicely

I happened to have a pot and cap connected together

I tried it on a secondary for a short time .....I was able to control the flashing rate of the LED on my JT to some degree .
This might be a secondary frequency control .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 04, 2009, 08:03:09 AM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 04, 2009, 07:55:25 AM

Altrez

Great idea :)

It appeares to be charging nicely

I happened to have a pot and cap connected together

I tried it on a secondary for a short time .....I was able to control the flashing rate of the LED on my JT to some degree .
This might be a secondary frequency control .

gary

Yeah several pages back I posted that I had added a rheostat to control the pickup coil. It works well. its how I tune my charger :)

Take Care,

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 04, 2009, 10:18:39 AM

Quote from: electricme on June 04, 2009, 02:16:41 AM
@All
Here is another CRO movie, it's the 3rd one I have done today of my EB output, the waveforms have changed further again slightly.
This time I have altered the image somewhat to show the Triangle waveform which we have seen on Jeannas scope on Bills Stubblefield Earth Battery Forum.
I then return my scope settings back to their original settings.

jim

Excellent Jim,

I like the progression of these videos.

My scope's sampling limit is 5Mhz but it can only show around 2MHz.
I can see a lot of the jumping around.
If I set it so it is reading in the millivolts arena, I can see a wave close enough to stop it and measure it.

In fact, it moves way too fast to see, much faster than your video. I suspect it is the resolution of mine being more limited. I must stop it by putting it on hold to be able to measure the wave and see that it is 2.2MHz.

It looks a lot like the second one where it flips and the up curves become down curves.

For our information, what is the time between 2 waves on that squiggle at the most regular points?

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 04, 2009, 10:20:52 AM

Quote from: altrez on June 04, 2009, 08:03:09 AM
Yeah several pages back I posted that I had added a rheostat to control the pickup coil. It works well. its how I tune my charger :)

Take Care,

-Altrez

Altrez,

When you say you put the rheostat across the pickup wires do you mean one leg of the rheostat on each of the pickup wires?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 04, 2009, 10:37:30 AM

@Bill,
Thankyou for the inquiry.

Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 04, 2009, 02:30:37 AM
Jim:

What did you change to make that waveform look more like Jeanna's? Are you seeing the same general range of Hz she was seeing? After a little more testing with my scope so I get to know it a little better, I will drag it outside and see what mine looks like. I wonder if all of them will be a little different? Or, will the frequency of all of ours be similar? Very good work Jim, thank you.

Bill

To display the waveform like you see with Jeanna's scope shot, I just backed off the VOLTS/DIV and the TIME/DIV switches.

I hooked my probe earth clip to the earth lead (aluminium rod) and the Probe itself to the (Copper Pipe)

In your case, the earth clip to the Magnesium bar, the cro probe to the Carbon rods.

Then just fiddle a bit with the cro settings, don't forget to take a towl to put over your head to cut the sunlight/glair out or you wont see the screen.

You will have to run an extension lead for the Cro's power I think.

I think you will see similar waveforms, but take notice how they change all by themselves, I mean they have wobbily bits, going up and down, tremmers, and spikes all mixed up in the waveforms.

Take my advice, and run a special lead from your electrodes in the ground and meassure it from inside the house, it makes it sooooo much easier.
You can keep records when it is Dark, Daytime, Raining, Snow, all in comfort.

jim

0837.jpg = 1st waveform taken today
0838.jpg = 2nd waveform took 1/2hr later
0839.jpg = 3rd waveform took 2hrs later

0841.jpg = What does a 1 watt cree LED looklight? You need sunglasses and it needs a heat sink or it will kook up

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 04, 2009, 10:51:57 AM

@Jeanna,
Thankyou for the "Exelent", TA.
I will take a look at this in the morning for you, its 12:44 in the morning here, my brain is addled, it's like thinking through treakle.

Quote from: jeanna on June 04, 2009, 10:18:39 AM
Excellent Jim,

I like the progression of these videos.

My scope's sampling limit is 5Mhz but it can only show around 2MHz.
I can see a lot of the jumping around.
If I set it so it is reading in the millivolts arena, I can see a wave close enough to stop it and measure it.

In fact, it moves way too fast to see, much faster than your video. I suspect it is the resolution of mine being more limited. I must stop it by putting it on hold to be able to measure the wave and see that it is 2.2MHz.

It looks a lot like the second one where it flips and the up curves become down curves.

For our information, what is the time between 2 waves on that squiggle at the most regular points?

Thank you,

jeanna

Thankyou Jeanna.

@Bill,
I think I should not take up any more space on the JT with my earth batt, but if it OK with you, I should post this on your N Stubblefield topic.
I posted this stuff here just to give some of the others an idea what is going on under their tootsies.

I'll talk to you about this 8 to 9 hours ohhh i'm wobbly in the head with tired ness.

hooroo all
jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 04, 2009, 12:43:11 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 04, 2009, 10:20:52 AM
Altrez,

When you say you put the rheostat across the pickup wires do you mean one leg of the rheostat on each of the pickup wires?

jeanna

Yes that is it. If you watch the Spikes of voltage will go way up when you have it in tune.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 04, 2009, 12:45:12 PM

Hi everybody,
I just posted more scopeshots and other info on localjoe's EB thread. I chose that one because I am putting probes in the ground and that is what we did on that thread for nearly one year, so...

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3500.msg184430#msg184430 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3500.msg184430#msg184430)

that link ought to take you there.
I uploaded 2 movies of the scopeshots too. They are too large for the regular place. The link is on that other page.

Now, back to my joule thief!!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 04, 2009, 12:47:37 PM

Quote from: altrez on June 04, 2009, 12:43:11 PM
Yes that is it. If you watch the Spikes of voltage will go way up when you have it in tune.

-Altrez

Thanks, but now, I want to know where the scope is.
You have the rheostat across 2 pickup wires... and where is the scope connected? Right there too?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on June 04, 2009, 04:12:40 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 03, 2009, 10:28:23 PM
Hey Art,

try this:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3500.msg184234#new (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3500.msg184234#new)
it is reply 2274

a scope of a EB.
;)

jeanna

edit
the markers are slightly too close. I probably was 2.4MHz not 2.5MHz. Either way it is there today too. And on the copper to copper today too 2.22MHz!

maybe im just looking at those EB scope shots crosseyed but i could swear i seen pulses on a sin wave pattern as if the eb IS getting its power from the magnetic lines of the earth! if that is what i think it is then your gonna get 2.4mhz pulses and they will always provide current (during the pulse) but will be like waves of an ocean first high then low then high again. jeanna you think im right or wrong or got another idea? you kept up with the EB thread more than me ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 04, 2009, 04:36:18 PM

I tried to post a picture of my new coil a couple of times ..... it just times out ,

I made this coil hoping that it would help me get a handle on fine tuning my LMs So far it hasn't helped much with that.

This coil is 300 ft of red radio shack wire .
I tapped it every 30 ft so I have 10 connection pegs on one side of the reel .
It turns out that if you connect B+ to one of the pegs ..........and connect the C leg to a peg on one side and the E wire to a peg on the other you have a one wire JT.

In general the one wire JT drew less power if the connections were all together .

I got the most voltage from the secondary if I connected from pin 1 to pin 10 . Yes ..... the 3 pins that were used for the connection to the transistor are both primary and secondary

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 04, 2009, 04:48:07 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on June 04, 2009, 04:12:40 PM
maybe im just looking at those EB scope shots crosseyed but i could swear i seen pulses on a sin wave pattern as if the eb IS getting its power from the magnetic lines of the earth! if that is what i think it is then your gonna get 2.4mhz pulses and they will always provide current (during the pulse) but will be like waves of an ocean first high then low then high again. jeanna you think im right or wrong or got another idea? you kept up with the EB thread more than me ;)

yup.

And after I fixed the loose connection I got better voltage. But lets talk about this on the other thread, OK?
I posted a bunch more pics and 2 movies today and they warrant a bit of talk, I think, but over there where the talk is EB.

=====

@Gary,
I am assuming those letters you are talking about are on the pic you tried to post?
I had the same trouble earlier...
Please keep on trying.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hazens1 on June 04, 2009, 04:51:33 PM

Yes, let's keep the EB posts in the EB topic and post JT stuff here. Makes sense right? I'm tired of wading through so many posts in this topic that are OFF-TOPIC..

Quote from: jeanna on June 04, 2009, 04:48:07 PM
yup.

And after I fixed the loose connection I got better voltage. But lets talk about this on the other thread, OK?
I posted a bunch more pics and 2 movies today and they warrant a bit of talk, I think, but over there where the talk is EB.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 04, 2009, 08:01:11 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 04, 2009, 12:47:37 PM
Thanks, but now, I want to know where the scope is.
You have the rheostat across 2 pickup wires... and where is the scope connected? Right there too?

jeanna

Yes the probe is connected with the hook on the wire.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 04, 2009, 08:14:29 PM

Hi everyone,
Well, in spite of the heat, I managed to get started on something I realize is important.
It is important to me, anyway.

You might remember a couple of months ago I removed the second transistor in my 2 tier joule thief and found there was no need for this second transistor. Then I literally dropped a wire and it landed in a hole that made the lights get bright. (pretty strange, but cool.)

I have been thinking about what this is and I have decided it is worth exploring.
It is, I realize after reading some of Tesla's lectures, a circuit like the ones he was proposing in 1892-4.
I will go into that part more later.
It is too hot and the details are too new to me.

So, I put together a 2 tier circuit and as much as possible, I matched the 2 toroids.
They are not an exact match.
It seems I soldered one that matched one of these, but here is what I have for today.

This helps me to set up the table and the picture.
I made a jpeg of the table with drawing.

I forgot to take the amps draw, but conceptually speaking, I remember the amps draw was higher with a second tier operating.
Once before the amps draw changed from 29.5mA to 32mA when the second tier was added to this toroid.

I put the clip and probe of the scope on either side of each led at the place I was testing.
Please bear in mind all these figures include the 5 leds which are in the circuit and brightly shining.

-
Oh and a note on the second row of numbers.
I added an additional 8T pickup to the basic first tier circuit.It took more than a predictable number of turns to turn on a led and I looked at what it did to other wires on the circuit. I don't trust all my numbers so I am only posting the ones I know are right.
There was a lot of flashing of lights until I found a loose led. I rechecked all these numbers.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 04, 2009, 08:34:13 PM

To help you look at this, start at light "C"

On its positive side it is fed by
one wire which is the end of an inductor which is a single coil - the secondary in green,
and another inductor which is at one end of a center tapped inductor.

On its other end it goes straight into the neg of the battery rail.

Now, follow those inductors.
One of them goes to the other side which feeds another circuit
and the other is the center tap which ends at the pos battery rail.
That other one also happens to continue on and feed into another circuit.

The light "D" which is in the battery rail is connected to the center tap of the just mentioned inductor at the pos side of the rail,
and one side of the pickup coming up from the first tier on the neg side of the rail.
( Remember, this first tier is what is producing the pulses for the whole thing. It has the only transistor.)

enough for now,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 04, 2009, 08:59:05 PM

Let me try one more time.

There is a basic joule thief:

It has a 2N3904 Transistor
480 ohms resistor
5T,7T,38T toroid
Additional 8T pickup added later.
"A" is the name of its BJTL
Battery source 1.3v
--
The 38 turn pickup is the source for another joule thief toroid.
7T,8T,38T
no transistor
no resistor
no battery

"C" is in the BJT place by virtue of its being between the collector and line to the neg

"B" is a LED that has one connection to what was the emitter

"D" is in the battery rail

---
"E" is a led in an additional circuit available from this set up.
It is turned on by the 8T pickup that I added later to the first tier toroid.

I hope this make some sense now.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 04, 2009, 09:14:39 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 04, 2009, 04:48:07 PM

@Gary,
I am assuming those letters you are talking about are on the pic you tried to post?
I had the same trouble earlier...
Please keep on trying.

Jeanna

Sorry

I thought C and E wires would make sense right away .
I guess I should have written E and B rather than E and C

On a normal JT there are three connections made to the coil
The 2 wires that are twisted together are connected to the positive side of the battey ( B+ )

One of the other wires goes to the emitter ( E )
The other wire goes to the base through the resistor ( B)

The point I wanted to make was the exact same connections work on the normal JT and the one wire JT .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 04, 2009, 09:27:59 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 04, 2009, 09:14:39 PM
I thought C and E wires would make sense right away .

On a normal JT there are three connections made to the coil
The 2 wires that are twisted together are connected to the positive side of the battey ( B+ )
The point I wanted to make was the exact same connections work on the normal JT and the one wire JT .

It is probably the heat. I think it is 91 here today. I am not used to it .

So, what you have is a single coil with a center tap and you are using the thing as a center tapped inductor?

Not like the MK1 where it comes back to the center, but all the coils just go one way?
Do I have the picture right?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 04, 2009, 10:24:36 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 04, 2009, 09:27:59 PM
It is probably the heat. I think it is 91 here today. I am not used to it .

So, what you have is a single coil with a center tap and you are using the thing as a center tapped inductor?

Not like the MK1 where it comes back to the center, but all the coils just go one way?
Do I have the picture right?

thank you,

jeanna

Jeanna

I guess you could think of it as a coil with a center tap ......the only thing is there are 7 extra taps ...... as far as I can see the JT can be made with any of them .
As far as I can see it doesn't really matter which tap you use for B+ What seems to matter more is the placement of the other wires .
If they are placed in the positions clossest to the original connection ( B+ ) the current draw is lower and the secondary voltage is highest .

ALL the positions I tried for the other 2 wires worked .....
I thought that a one wire JT would be less forgiving than a regular JT ..........but this one seems to be more forgiving ..... as long as I got all the wires connected ( with B+ in the middle )the LED lit up .

Yes ........all the windings go in the same direction .
This coil was intended to help me get an idea of how to optimise the LMs ( for flyback )........ I can hook up one end .....then try all the connection pins one at a time and see what works best .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 04, 2009, 11:51:23 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 04, 2009, 10:24:36 PM
Yes ........all the windings go in the same direction .

Gary,
Do you have any more information for us? Or was it all on that page you wanted to upload.

I would like to know what is happening over there.

So far I cannot make out how you would make a joule thief with one coil of wire wrapped in one direction.- even with a tap or many taps.
How are you getting the oscillation?

To me a joule thief is based on having a transistor to make the stop and start based on the current/mag field going one way then another way in the paired coils.
Maybe not.
Maybe what you are doing is more like the fuji circuit.
Please give a few more hints?

@Altrez,
Thanks for the info. I look forward to hearing about it this weekend!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 05, 2009, 12:29:47 AM

@jeanna

Concerning lazy man jt (Gary), it is made from 2 coil , like the regular basic jt has a single center tap coil . Its just words .

But what is interesting is the disposition of the coil on a regular jt it would look like , humm make one !

1
First take one wire skin about 1/4 inch at mid point then wind it on a toroid all the way around .

2
So at that point you will have one coil , then connect the one end of the coil to the E and one to the base resistor , at that point you will still have one coil .

3
Ok now lets make it work connect the positive rail of the bat to the middle point ( the sickened part from step one) by doing so the jt will be completed , and now you really have 2 coils .

So now its not so new after all , but a 300 feet of 30 gauge on a spool 10 taps for tuning the coils.that is something unseen .

Mark

Ps well done ;D

@renonanceman

Do you use a core ?
Well i mean have you tried a core?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 05, 2009, 03:30:20 AM

@ Jeanna,
I will try and answer you questions.
But first I want to say a few words to those bellyaching about this being off topic. :(

I have slept on this overnight before posting, and I feel I'm in the right frame of mind to throw my 2 cents in and say what needs to be said.

Some here have loudly bewailed the fact that there are offtopic posts, so there are, you are quite correct, however, do you know or understand the reason for those posts?
which involves the Nathan Stubblefield Forum (there are 2 of them), and how it relates to the Joule Thief Forum?
Their histories are combined.

I know of at least 4 people who post in this forum who were posting in the NS forums, (I include myself in this group), Both Stubblefield forums got stuck in a rut, and needed some fresh thinking/ideas, to get back into it again.

It turns out that no matter what people did in the NS forums, they just could not get the EB to function as the patient described, this caused a lot of grey hairs and angst.

Believe you me, a lot of effort and research went into those forums.

I believe it was because of this disappointment, that this forum was started, it just so happened that the Joule Thief has kick started the posting back onto the NS forums, about a year later.
In the future I will be posting NS stuff there and JT stuff here.

It has been mentioned several times by posters here, would the JT work off a NS earth battery?

Several pages ago, someone was lamenting the fact they really wanted to see what a Earth Battery output was like.

So I connected my cro up to my EB electrodes and provided the answers, now I will not accept any blame for doing this, I saw my actions as helping someone out who really wanted to find out just what was the energy in the EB.

The direct result of my posting my scope results has got another 2 people to do the same thing.

If you think what I am saying is not the right thing to do, then all I can say, go back and read the posts before the off topic post begun and see for yourselves.

I will now answer Jeannas questions as best I can, here in this forum, as she asked them here in this forum.

Quote from: jeanna on June 04, 2009, 10:18:39 AM
Excellent Jim,

I like the progression of these videos.

My scope's sampling limit is 5Mhz but it can only show around 2MHz.
I can see a lot of the jumping around.
If I set it so it is reading in the millivolts arena, I can see a wave close enough to stop it and measure it.

In fact, it moves way too fast to see, much faster than your video. I suspect it is the resolution of mine being more limited. I must stop it by putting it on hold to be able to measure the wave and see that it is 2.2MHz.

It looks a lot like the second one where it flips and the up curves become down curves.

For our information, what is the time between 2 waves on that squiggle at the most regular points?

Thank you,

jeanna

Jeanna,
The wave never seems to stop or come to a rest, it wriggils all the time, this makes it very hard for me to do anything with it except look at the wave form.

You are lucky you can "sample and hold", my cro cannot do this.

You mention it flipped up and curves down, last night I couldn't understand that, then to day, I took a look at the 2 videos you made, and watching them I realised, you had been able to shade in the middle of the wave, then after it passed the middle line it passed below.
(nice straw hat)
Once a gain my cro can't do this shading in.

Lastly, I have no way to find out the frequencies, a guesstimate would be in the 2mHz ball park, as you have mentioned, however at this point in time, it would have to be me relying on your measurements, as I said, there is just too many wriggling lines on my cro, and I can't freeze/hold them.

Thankyou

jim

@Bill,
If you think I have over done this post, then I will remove it, I will leave the decision to you.

hooroo

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 05, 2009, 04:14:38 AM

@electicme , jeanna , pirate , gadget ,

Could any of you try a toroid with 2 coil (primary , secondary) connect the primary to the anode and cathode from the EB, test the secondary for power , the jt is nothing new, i think its even older then most of us !

NS made the leap evolution in design ,i need to know how good it works !

Mark

I think most are interested in the eb anyway , its good to have news from time to time , and if its useful to even one person then its worth in here!

At some point we will to to sit back , look at all in perspective get the ensemble view , some months ago , a cfl needed the fuji circuit no more , many have reported , but how many did not , the fuji needed a battery first came the 1.5 volts nobody said it was made of earth , there is more then galvanic , doesn't a compass show the tension lines , earth came pre wired in a wireless fashion , that may also explain the kick , if all of that was then the sun would be responsible , humm ....

Ok light is good , but there is so much more to it , but also so symbolic ...

I think the first jt used a eb ,or the eb used a jt, any way it gose full circle .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 05, 2009, 06:25:17 AM

@MK1,
Hi Mark, this sounds like a nice new experiment to do.

I read you remarks, I agree with them, and I will re-read them again shortly.
any way I have an announcement to make.

@ALL,
;D ;D ;D ;D
Today just a couple of hours ago I managed to light up my 1Watt LUXEON STAR LED from the EARTH BATTERY.

I actually was going into the kitchen to make a cup of tea, when I saw the LED turning on and off, then it became brighter, at times it went quite bright, then in about 5 minutes, it went off.

Remember there is NO Battery connected to the Earth Battery, just a single 55Farad SC, and as luck would have it, my cro was on and one of my multimeters, so I got 3 TWV files made.

Guess what, they are too big to post here but I put them in the MENU/ downloads section, look at the right hand column.

Success at last.

Now, will it work via joule thief? ;)

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 05, 2009, 09:12:30 AM

Good Morning all .
I thought we all had a discussion about the Different things here in this Topic and it was ok to post any experiment here related to Jt eb Led Whatever . I will Continue to post here as its read more than the stubblefield thread . The Earth Battery IS highly related to My JT IN that it is 1 volt . I like one Volt . Dead Battery's , Earth battery the same Volts . So Sue Me Kick me off or skip over my post . I don't care unless Pirate says different . This is his Great Thread and If he says its ok Cool . If not then you have to remember this . One Volt =1300 volts . And yes it runs from an Earth Battery or a dead battery . the Eb is My foundation for free energy now and forever . I will not power with a 12 volt battery or go higher on the input unless a one volt power supply is supplying the 12 volts . period. the reason is simple . EB is FREE . 12 volts cells are not . My projects will focus on one thing . Extremely low input volts and Milliamps . in my opinion anything drawing over 14 milliamps is useless especially when i have 25 leds running at .3 volts and 2 milliamps . I want it lower ! and i will do it . And I am working on Earth Batterys Jts hho generators Hf one wire circuits all with the goal of doing it with 1 volt at minimum milliamp .
It is well know that everybody is different and most everybody has their own goal and experiments . I have learned and taught alot here in this thread . I know of some buyers that only read this topic and bought earth battery's .It is good to have all that information in one topic . Pirate you could change the name to jule thieves :) and that would cover it i think .
And BTW the Topic is under POWERING CIRCUITS WITH ONE BATTERY !!

Where you Been Hazens1 ?Anything new ?

Ok mark i will try it soon Friend .

gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 05, 2009, 03:26:42 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 04, 2009, 11:51:23 PM
Gary,
Do you have any more information for us? Or was it all on that page you wanted to upload.

I would like to know what is happening over there.

So far I cannot make out how you would make a joule thief with one coil of wire wrapped in one direction.- even with a tap or many taps.
How are you getting the oscillation?

To me a joule thief is based on having a transistor to make the stop and start based on the current/mag field going one way then another way in the paired coils.
Maybe not.
Maybe what you are doing is more like the fuji circuit.
Please give a few more hints?

@Altrez,
Thanks for the info. I look forward to hearing about it this weekend!

jeanna

Jeanna

I like the basic concept behind the LM coils
I need to find ways to fine tune them
That was what the 10 taps were about .......It is just like tuning a coil .......only on a different scale ...... From here I will choose a specific length for my primarys and secondarys .
I am going to stick with length rather than wraps because I think it is easier and will scale better .

One of my biggest assets is my intuition . As I started the coil it hit me that it might be able to run as a JT even though it only has one wire.
By the time I was finished winding it I was sure it would work and knew exactly how to hook it up .

Do you have any scrap wire laying around ?
The easiest way to understand it is to make one yourself .

The wire needs to be longer if you do not use a core .

If you want to use short wire a nail or something should work good enough for a core .

Wind some wire into a coil ........ attach another piece of wire ........wind it on top of the first wire .......same direction . Keep the ends where you attached the 2 wires out in the open so you can connect to them later .

Once you have wound the second wire on top of the first ....... you have your JT ......... 2 wires ........3 ends .
Of course it could be one wire with a center tap too .

Just connect it as you would your normal JT
It will work

If you think about it ........when the current is flowing mostly through the first wire it sets up a magnetic field ...... when the trannsitor switches it makes most of the current flow through the other wire .........that is towards the other end of the coil . ..... It sets up a magnetic field opposite of the first one ......I think the creation of this new mag field helps the old mag field to collapse faster ......or something on that order .

I hope that this helps

What I tried to upload was a picture ........just so you could see the coil itself ......with its 10 wires sticking out of the side of the radio shack spool
I have given up on uploadind it ..... I have wasted close to 2 hours tryinig to upload just that one picture ........ it gets most of the way uploaded then times out .
This site itself usually times out once or twice before I get a page loaded .
When I submit a normal post it times out ........I reload it ......and if t went through I get an error message that I have already submitted the post .
The quickest way back is to hit the back button until I get to the page just before I hit the reply button ......then I reload that page .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 05, 2009, 03:41:05 PM

@ All:

Just a quick note on my feelings on the "off-topic" postings involving the EB's. I am as guilty as anyone for posting the EB stuff here but, usually, it involves a JT circuit of some kind as well so I feel it is relevant. As some have said, all of these devices are related anyway and, to be honest, I had no idea how they might work together when I began this topic. None at all. But now, look what we have been able to do...all these great devices lighting all sorts of things on very little power, dead batteries or an EB.

I think everyone here should feel proud for participating in this research that has led to so many varied ways of using low power to do great things. The use of supercaps and maxcaps with the EB and JT circuits has opened up another door that offers many possibilties previously thought impossible. For those that have a breakthrough in this area (Like Jim lighting a 1 watt Led from his EB) please feel free to post that here. These accomplishments are important and there are more folks here that can benefit from this information than in the other EB topics. It is quite easily possible that something used in an EB experiment might trigger someone's thinking here for a new type of JT device, who knows?

So, to sum up, we have all come this far without strict adherence to the single topic at hand and I believe we are all better off for it. So, unless someone hear's from me about a post being too far off-topic, don't worry about it.

Thank you all.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 05, 2009, 03:42:35 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on June 05, 2009, 09:12:30 AM
...the Eb is My foundation for free energy now and forever . I will not power with a 12 volt battery or go higher on the input unless a one volt power supply is supplying the 12 volts . period. the reason is simple . EB is FREE . 12 volts cells are not . My projects will focus on one thing . Extremely low input volts and Milliamps ...

I am working within these parameters too. Not everyone and many are very helpful.

I just posted a pic at localjoes EB thread

I wanted to post the pic of my very old NS generator still under the tree which is showing a smaller version of what is on the EB, but also... There is this very definite and regular wave which is not on the EB today. It is mostly from the NS generator, because it is connected in the ground. But the wave begins when I hold the other lead. Then after it is connected to the generator it begins again.

BTW
The NS generator IS a joule thief.
period.

Mine all lack the spark gaps and therefore have no oscillation from the generator action.

I am picking up something else.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3500.msg184591 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3500.msg184591)

maybe that link will make it easier.
I need to use a magnifier on my flat screen. glare today.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on June 05, 2009, 04:14:54 PM

Quote from: electricme on June 04, 2009, 02:16:41 AM
@All
Here is another CRO movie, it's the 3rd one I have done today of my EB output, the waveforms have changed further again slightly.
This time I have altered the image somewhat to show the Triangle waveform which we have seen on Jeannas scope on Bills Stubblefield Earth Battery Forum.
I then return my scope settings back to their original settings.

jim

if this was a galvanic reaction as most batteries are you wouldnt get these wild wave forms. im sure a number of elements are contributing to this like grounded house current, biological, piezo electric, and the planets magnetic, should be some static electric in there some where i would think too. too bad with all these sources we cant tap more from just a couple spikes.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 05, 2009, 04:18:58 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 05, 2009, 12:29:47 AM
@jeanna

Concerning lazy man jt (Gary), it is made from 2 coil , like the regular basic jt has a single center tap coil . Its just words .

But what is interesting is the disposition of the coil on a regular jt it would look like , humm make one !

1
First take one wire skin about 1/4 inch at mid point then wind it on a toroid all the way around .

2
So at that point you will have one coil , then connect the one end of the coil to the E and one to the base resistor , at that point you will still have one coil .

3
Ok now lets make it work connect the positive rail of the bat to the middle point ( the sickened part from step one) by doing so the jt will be completed , and now you really have 2 coils .

Mark

yes this is very close to how I made it.

I taped one end to something ........and taped the other to something else 30 ft away . I sanded a small ariea of the wire and soldered on 3 inched of heavier wire .
I then taped it up good .....then wrapped it to the heaver wire ......ran it through a hole drilled in the spool ...........then continued wrapping the next 30 ft .

Quote

So now its not so new after all , but a 300 feet of 30 gauge on a spool 10 taps for tuning the coils.that is something unseen .

Not exactly unseen :)
maybe this exact application is untried ........but similar stuff has been done .
The first glimmer of the idea started with that resistor thing that if I understand Jim give to Gadget .
I wanted something that worked like that .....only with inductors .
Quite a while back I spent some time reading a thread called something like one wire . .... some of those experments would be interesting with one coil .
None of what I have done is new .......I just blended a few ideas that others have had together to fit my own needs.

[quote[

Do you use a core ?
Well i mean have you tried a core?
[/quote]

That is one of the things I like about the Radio Shack spools .
The Electronic Goldmine 5 for $1 toroids fit nicely in the center of the spools . I also have some half inch diameter NEO magnets that fit nicely into the toriods ......this seems to greatly raise the permeability .
2 of those toroids fit well within the spool ......3 will work if you don;t mind them hanging out a little .

The first time I dropped the toroids and magnets into the coil ( it was running with no core ) the voltage dropped to 0

I pulled it out and noticed that as I pulled it out the voltage went back up .......nice and smooth . :) It hit me like a ton of bricks .
Assuming I can scale this thing up ............I just found out how to make the accelerator peddle for an electric car . :)

From 0 to max power with only one moving part .... The core could be connrcted directly to the accelerator peddle

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 05, 2009, 04:41:26 PM

Quote from: electricme on June 05, 2009, 03:30:20 AM
@ Jeanna,
I will try and answer you questions.
But first I want to say a few words to those bellyaching about this being off topic. :(

I have slept on this overnight before posting, and I feel I'm in the right frame of mind to throw my 2 cents in and say what needs to be said.

Some here have loudly bewailed the fact that there are offtopic posts, so there are, you are quite correct, however, do you know or understand the reason for those posts?
which involves the Nathan Stubblefield Forum (there are 2 of them), and how it relates to the Joule Thief Forum?
Their histories are combined.

I know of at least 4 people who post in this forum who were posting in the NS forums, (I include myself in this group), Both Stubblefield forums got stuck in a rut, and needed some fresh thinking/ideas, to get back into it again.

It turns out that no matter what people did in the NS forums, they just could not get the EB to function as the patient described, this caused a lot of grey hairs and angst.

Believe you me, a lot of effort and research went into those forums.

I believe it was because of this disappointment, that this forum was started, it just so happened that the Joule Thief has kick started the posting back onto the NS forums, about a year later.
In the future I will be posting NS stuff there and JT stuff here.

It has been mentioned several times by posters here, would the JT work off a NS earth battery?

Several pages ago, someone was lamenting the fact they really wanted to see what a Earth Battery output was like.

So I connected my cro up to my EB electrodes and provided the answers, now I will not accept any blame for doing this, I saw my actions as helping someone out who really wanted to find out just what was the energy in the EB.

The direct result of my posting my scope results has got another 2 people to do the same thing.

If you think what I am saying is not the right thing to do, then all I can say, go back and read the posts before the off topic post begun and see for yourselves.

I will now answer Jeannas questions as best I can, here in this forum, as she asked them here in this forum.

Jeanna,
The wave never seems to stop or come to a rest, it wriggils all the time, this makes it very hard for me to do anything with it except look at the wave form.

You are lucky you can "sample and hold", my cro cannot do this.

You mention it flipped up and curves down, last night I couldn't understand that, then to day, I took a look at the 2 videos you made, and watching them I realised, you had been able to shade in the middle of the wave, then after it passed the middle line it passed below.
(nice straw hat)
Once a gain my cro can't do this shading in.

Lastly, I have no way to find out the frequencies, a guesstimate would be in the 2mHz ball park, as you have mentioned, however at this point in time, it would have to be me relying on your measurements, as I said, there is just too many wriggling lines on my cro, and I can't freeze/hold them.

Thankyou

jim

@Bill,
If you think I have over done this post, then I will remove it, I will leave the decision to you.

hooroo

jim

Jim
I agree the Stubblfield earth battery is related ....... it may be the ideal power source for the JT

I have not posted anything on the stubblfield threads for quite a while ..........but I have not given up on getting the earth battery to work like Stubblfield did .

Part of the reason that I like making JTs on a spool rather than a toroid is there is more room for experimenting .

I have some theorys that I hope to test with a LM JT
If they work out ....then I should be able to apply that theory to the NS coil and make it work like a transistor .

That could lead to transitorless JTs and the stubblfield phone

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: danwatchorn on June 05, 2009, 05:05:44 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on June 04, 2009, 12:08:58 AM
@ All thanks guys .
I am Getting ready for the Big Earth Battery Show in The Black Hills and have most of The Light inventions ready . I'm too tired to snap and edit pictures tonight but i have two units that's are running 25 leds on a 12 foot wire drawing 2 ma and running on dead battery's last i checked the volts were .3 this is with one of My 300 hfe .2 volt germanium's . the other one is self charge assisted and is drawing 9 ma with a standard 2n3904 and 25 leds in a bundle flower . these are all Christmas lights i hacked and soldered in parallel . I also have a Hv camera circuit from goldmine i tuned to 2 ma and its running a bunch of leds also . All this will be tied on one MAx Ultraboost cap fed with the earth battery and My nighttime solar switcher/Charge regulator. ,, I guess i will try and make that 450 mile trip up there for Greg At ARSF Who has Supplied all the Graphs and data logger results and Supplies . .
The Final Analysis is this . there is Galvanic current and there is Magnetic Current . There is a sweet spot to get the most voltage and the most current . Electrodes placed 20 feet apart produce the Magnetic ley Current and Voltage . 4.8 Volts at a few Nano amps . Moving the electrodes Close together from one to three feet produce a maximium of 2 volts and current as high as 15 milliamps with the electrodes we used . So in bewteen that is your higher voltage and lower current . It depends also on Moisture ,an Doused Ley lines nad material of the Rods . Carbon Fiber Produces more Volts but less Current . Carbon (Pure) Produces the most Current as does Magnesium . Copper is next .. I know that the mass of the positive electrode increases the current . SO start Getting Some Magnisium Rims . I have the Carbon From The Main World Wide Manufacture who make them for everyone in the world . up tp 6 inches round and 4 foot long . (power) Thats all for tonight ..

Sweet Electric Dreams

Gadget

@ All Please forgive me, but I couldn't post a personal message, so I'm asking here...

@ Gadget
Where and when is this Black Hills show? I live in northeast NE and would like to go!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 05, 2009, 05:09:11 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 05, 2009, 04:41:26 PM

....then I should be able to apply that theory to the NS coil and make it work like a transistor .

That could lead to transitorless JTs and the stubblfield phone
gary

COME ON you guys.
The Stubblefield battery IS a joule thief.

It is a transistorless joule thief.

I wrote a big page about it on Bill's bifilar thread a while back when it all came together for me.
The troubles with not having a transistor but having a spark gap instead are the very high frequency and the
variations in humidity and
the unwanted sparks
etc.

Tesla devoted pages and probably years to overcoming the problems inherent in the spark gap.
This is all he had to cause a frequency of stop and start.
This stop and start is what he needed to make the pulsing non steady current he believed would be better.

Back then, they called this "make and break".
We are unfamiliar with that term, but before the 20th century, the electrical engineers had to use sparks... for everything including proving there was electricity in the wires.

When Stubblefield referred to the 'normal make and break' we were all puzzled. If you look at some of the writings from back then, you see make and break are referring to sparks, or spark gaps.

ahem, I will quiet down now.
Really, Nathan Stubblefield invented the joule thief and the cell phone.
It is no wonder he was so bitter.

====

So Gary,
This way of winding is just the way Hazens was winding his? You made yours with 10 taps instead of only one so you could easily tune it. I get it. Thank you.

I better go find 2 matching jt's the day is running away.

BBS,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 05, 2009, 05:47:52 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 05, 2009, 05:09:11 PM
COME ON you guys.
The Stubblefield battery IS a joule thief.

It is a transistorless joule thief.

I wrote a big page about it on Bill's bifilar thread a while back when it all came together for me.
The troubles with not having a transistor but having a spark gap instead are the very high frequency and the
variations in humidity and
the unwanted sparks
etc.

Tesla devoted pages and probably years to overcoming the problems inherent in the spark gap.
This is all he had to cause a frequency of stop and start.
This stop and start is what he needed to make the pulsing non steady current he believed would be better.

Back then, they called this "make and break".
We are unfamiliar with that term, but before the 20th century, the electrical engineers had to use sparks... for everything including proving there was electricity in the wires.

When Stubblefield referred to the 'normal make and break' we were all puzzled. If you look at some of the writings from back then, you see make and break are referring to sparks, or spark gaps.

ahem, I will quiet down now.
Really, Nathan Stubblefield invented the joule thief and the cell phone.
It is no wonder he was so bitter.

====

So Gary,
This way of winding is just the way Hazens was winding his? You made yours with 10 taps instead of only one so you could easily tune it. I get it. Thank you.

I better go find 2 matching jt's the day is running away.

BBS,

jeanna

Jeanna

I agree that what Stubblfield made was a transistorless JT
I do not think he needed a spark gap to make it work .

I think a couple of things were wrong or missing while we were expermenting

For the most part we made long skinny coils
I read somewhere that the best configuration for a solonoid coil is 1.5 times as wide as it is long ....... long and skinny can hurt performance .

I believe that part of that made possible the discoveries of Tesla and Stubblefield is that they did not have the fancy meters and stuff that we have now ........so they made up for it with BIGGER hardware .........bigger coils ....... We for the most part made little tiny coils .

The last thing is what could be called coil geometry
The coil geometry I am talking about is not taught in any school today .
Tesla knew about it . A Tesla coil will not work right if tightly coupled . It has to be loosely coupled for the secondary to reach high frequency and high voltage .
I am telling you now ......the secondary of a NS coil must be loosely coupled too .

I believe that most of what kept your attempts at the NS coil from working was the proper space between the bifilar coil and the secondary .

What is the proper space?
I don't have any idea .............but I am hoping that I can work it out with my LMs whenI get far enough along .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 05, 2009, 06:06:53 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 05, 2009, 05:09:11 PM

So Gary,
This way of winding is just the way Hazens was winding his? You made yours with 10 taps instead of only one so you could easily tune it. I get it. Thank you.

Jeanna

I am not sure that you got it yet ..

I do not remember Hazens makiing JTs without toroids .
My LMs are wound on the spools that the wire comes on .
With my first few coils I just sanded the enamel off both ends and added a primary .

The 10 tap coil was not made so that I could tune a JT made with it .......it was made so I can tune " stuff " Such as what is the best size coil to provide a load for a particular JT without choking the circuit .
To large of a coil chokes the pulses ......to small ...... and you have little to make flyback with .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 05, 2009, 06:25:04 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on June 05, 2009, 09:12:30 AM
the Eb is My foundation for free energy now and forever . I will not power with a 12 volt battery or go higher on the input unless a one volt power supply is supplying the 12 volts . period. the reason is simple . EB is FREE . 12 volts cells are not .

Gadget

This is one way to go ...........but it is not the only way .
An earth battery might be a great way to start powering a house ........but it will never be portable .

It is also not exactly free
The copper in a large NS cell could be very expensive .
A battery running a large JT with the right feedback to source may be cheaper in the long run .
I am pretty sure that because my LMs are bigger ...... I can raise the power by using higher voltage batterys . The limit should be when my coils start to get hot .
I think that once I get the right configuration so that I am making maximum flyback with minimum losses the relatiionships will hold with higher power .

gary

Edit

Notice I said that I think the RELATIONSHIPS will hold at higher voltage..... the frequency probably WILL change but it will change the same for both coils.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 05, 2009, 06:37:35 PM

Quote from: danwatchorn on June 05, 2009, 05:05:44 PM
@ All Please forgive me, but I couldn't post a personal message, so I'm asking here...

@ Gadget
Where and when is this Black Hills show? I live in northeast NE and would like to go!

Its at Earthhaven Eco Village here the link http://www.earthaven.org/
the whole Village is solar powered . no cell tower no radio stations no tv other than satellite .. They have a deep burried telephone cable . thats all the connection they have with the outside world .

June 30

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 05, 2009, 06:43:13 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 05, 2009, 06:06:53 PM

I am not sure that you got it yet ..

I do not remember Hazens makiing JTs without toroids .

You are correct.
I don't get it yet and I thought you were making your tapped spool thing to tune your LM.

sorry.

I mentioned Hazens because I was focusing on the way the thing was wound, more in response to MK1, though, I guess.
Hazens way to wind the primary bifilar is the same as a single wind with a center tap.

QuoteMy LMs are wound on the spools that the wire comes on .
With my first few coils I just sanded the enamel off both ends and added a primary .

I guess I assumed you were adding a joule thief inside the spool which sort of makes the spool like a pick up from the joule thief.
I didn't realize this was wrong.

Thanks for the correction.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 05, 2009, 07:11:30 PM

@ Jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 05, 2009, 07:19:07 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 05, 2009, 06:43:13 PM
You are correct.
I don't get it yet and I thought you were making your tapped spool thing to tune your LM.

sorry.

I mentioned Hazens because I was focusing on the way the thing was wound, more in response to MK1, though, I guess.
Hazens way to wind the primary bifilar is the same as a single wind with a center tap.

I guess I assumed you were adding a joule thief inside the spool which sort of makes the spool like a pick up from the joule thief.
I didn't realize this was wrong.

Thanks for the correction.

jeanna

Jeanna

Sorry ....I know it got a little confusing ........especaly sense the first thing I did with my coil to tune the flyback was to make a JT out of it :)

I only made that JT because I realised that I could .

Before I started my LM coil I was looking for something easy and pracitcal .
Something that could be duplicated anywhere .....even if toroids are not available .
What could be easier and simpler than just sanding the ends of a spool of wire and adding another piece of wire for a primary .

That is why I called it the lazy mans JT ......it is as easy as it can get

Getting the most out of this cioil might not be easy .............but it will always be easier to put wire on a spool than it will to put it on a toroid

About Hazens same direction center tapped ........yes ......toroid no.

I remember saying that the electronic goldmine 5 for $1 toroids slide into the spool .......I ment the enpty toroids...not JT coils .... that might be where you got the idea that I was using the spool as a pickup
gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 05, 2009, 07:21:00 PM

@All,
I looked at this 2 tiered joule thief circuit again today.

Xee had suggested a while back that one reason I had lower voltage in the second tier was that I had stepped it down with fewer turns.

Using the same toroid for the first tier (widow) as yesterday, I made a pickup of 7 turns and just let the 38T pickup alone.

I connected it to the second tier as I have been doing and an I saw a new pattern.

I wanted to get the lights out of it so I can compare similar conditions, and I moved the wires over to join others ... etc...

The result is a more compact and understandable circuit (a little, anyway)

The results are interesting.

I didn't lose as much voltage as I had before - meaning this is the place to step up or down the voltage... (maybe)

The frequency went up 2 1/2 times from about 200KHz to 500KHz.

So it did not step up the voltage, but it really stepped up the frequency!

I will draw the new circuit, because I will be using it since the lights are not adding to the complication for now.

Oh, the other thing I noticed when I was pulling out the leds, is that the basic joule thief light takes a lot out of and away from the power in its own pickup coil. (I probably knew this in January.)
As the second tier is entirely fed by the pickup from the basic JT on the first level, the effect this light has on the pickup is significant.

I will make that drawing and be back,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 05, 2009, 07:42:18 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 05, 2009, 07:11:30 PM
@ Jeanna

MK

thanks for making that diagram

It is right ...........but it is not exactly the basic LM
It is the one wire LM
The differences are minor ......the basic LM would have a spool with many windings and a primary with a few windings .........sense the windings are connected it in effect works the same as in your picture .

To accurately make your picture of the LM into a basic LM you would have to move the tap to one end .........and erase the other taps .

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
fine points for the one wire LM JT

The one wire JT seems to have the best output when the conncections are to 3 consecutive taps ....it does not seem to matter which taps .
Spacing them farther apart raises the current draw and lowers the output voltage . ( at least with 30 ft windings . )
The secondary for the one wire LM can be from one end of it to the other .........

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 05, 2009, 08:49:11 PM

@Resonanceman
Hello Gary, thats a good discovery you have made there, using toroids instead of iron to control the output, it would be lighter also.

Quote from: resonanceman on June 05, 2009, 04:18:58 PM
Mark
The first glimmer of the idea started with that resistor thing that if I understand Jim give to Gadget .
I wanted something that worked like that .....only with inductors .
Quite a while back I spent some time reading a thread called something like one wire . .... some of those experments would be interesting with one coil .
I also have some half inch diameter NEO magnets that fit nicely into the toriods ......this seems to greatly raise the permeability .
2 of those toroids fit well within the spool ......3 will work if you don;t mind them hanging out a little .

The first time I dropped the toroids and magnets into the coil ( it was running with no core ) the voltage dropped to 0

I pulled it out and noticed that as I pulled it out the voltage went back up .......nice and smooth . :) It hit me like a ton of bricks .
Assuming I can scale this thing up ............I just found out how to make the accelerator peddle for an electric car . :)

From 0 to max power with only one moving part .... The core could be connrcted directly to the accelerator peddle

gary

Just some info for those who maybe dont know, inside "some" electric stick welders is a moving lamination core, it is moved in or out of the main E core to control the Current and Voltages supplied to the electrodes.

jim

@Gadget,
I agree with your remarks earlier, no probs there.

@Bill,
I also agree, so I will post my EB stuff on here.
So many things we are all working on here benifits everyone here, I never dreampt just by giving that Resistance wheel to Gadget would promote another discovery, I am surprised.

@Altrez,
Sorry, I woke this morning with a sivre headake, and fell back to sleep, I left a message for you on the landline recording service. :D

@all,
I just had a thought which I want to pass by you all, it concerns the outputs of EBs.

Last night I just happened to see my 1Watt Lux Star LED litup, I would have missed this entirely unless I had been heading into the cookhouse to make a cup of tea, (so I like to drink lol).
Anyway, I will make a triggor crt and it will ring a bell or honk a horn if the output swings high to let me know when this happens.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 05, 2009, 09:06:02 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 05, 2009, 07:42:18 PM
.....
It is the one wire LM
The differences are minor ......the basic LM would have a spool with many windings and a primary with a few windings .........sense the windings are connected it in effect works the same as in your picture .

To accurately make your picture of the LM into a basic LM you would have to move the tap to one end .........and erase the other taps .
.......
The secondary for the one wire LM can be from one end of it to the other .........
gary

Gary,
I once saw a description of making a crystal radio where the tuner is exactly like this long spool with the taps. (I think I understand this part... I hope)

This was the tuner

Now, I am still confused about your secondary

If the spool with the taps is the primary (and I thought it was the secondary before,) and you have 300 feet or is it 300 turns? Are you stepping this up or down? Is it a filter type of thing?

thanks,

MK1,
thanks for the picture. I missed it before. We posted together, I guess.

It makes me sure I am following this- which is very helpful.
The upper part is how Hazens primary works. The center tap is the same as the twisted pair.

I made a few of them. It makes it much easier to change the number of turns and it only loses a very little bit from the other kind of winding. It is a good enough way to wind the primary, I think.
If a toroid is really just not putting out enough, I know I can go back to the other kind (like the one in the lower part).

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 05, 2009, 09:32:03 PM

Quote from: electricme on June 05, 2009, 08:49:11 PM
@Resonanceman
Hello Gary, thats a good discovery you have made there, using toroids instead of iron to control the output, it would be lighter also.

Just some info for those who maybe dont know, inside "some" electric stick welders is a moving lamination core, it is moved in or out of the main E core to control the Current and Voltages supplied to the electrodes.

Jim

That is interesting .......so my new discovery is ancient history

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 05, 2009, 09:41:20 PM

@Resonanceman and Mark,

Quote from: resonanceman on June 05, 2009, 04:18:58 PM
Mark

yes this is very close to how I made it.

I taped one end to something ........and taped the other to something else 30 ft away . I sanded a small ariea of the wire and soldered on 3 inched of heavier wire .
I then taped it up good .....then wrapped it to the heaver wire ......ran it through a hole drilled in the spool ...........then continued wrapping the next 30 ft .

Not exactly unseen :)
maybe this exact application is untried ........but similar stuff has been done .
.......I just blended a few ideas that others have had together to fit my own needs.
[quote[

gary

Hi guys, a bit like my 12 CT secondary I made to test my Big 5" Toroid last year?

0236 = coil finished, tags are looped out from side of coil 4 easy access to them, BTW, make them at least 6" long, you can always shorten them later if you need to.
0244 = 12 position selector switch, you cannot use a pot here folks, impossible.

0257 = Finished coil

0259 = The circuit

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 05, 2009, 09:49:13 PM

Jim,

Didn't you make this a while back... then something happened to the switch... then I never heard about it anymore??

I am glad it has returned.

thank you!!

jeanna

Quote from: resonanceman on June 05, 2009, 09:32:03 PM
Jim

That is interesting .......so my new discovery is ancient history

gary

Gary,
Those are the best discoveries. Then you know you are on to something!!
Are you using welding rod too?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 05, 2009, 09:59:09 PM

Gadgetmall,

I just made a little breadboard jt with one of those germanium transistors.
It lights beautifully down to 1v, but my eb is 0.835 today.

I put a supercap like the one Bill used last year to light his led directly from the eb, but this didn't work. I added a diode which I put in wrong the first time then fixed, and it didn't work either.

What is it you add to a basic joule thief that you do so normally and I don't do that will make this work?

More caps? base caps of some size... tiny or big?
extremely low value resistor?

Do you use white led?

etc?

thanks

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 05, 2009, 10:07:52 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 05, 2009, 09:06:02 PM

Now, I am still confused about your secondary

If the spool with the taps is the primary (and I thought it was the secondary before,) and you have 300 feet or is it 300 turns? Are you stepping this up or down? Is it a filter type of thing?

Jeanna

OK
I will try to keep this simple .........but be prepared to be confused anyway .

choose any 3 consecutive taps for your primararys ..... with this particular coil that makes the primarys 90 ft long .

For maximum voltge you need the secondary to be as long as possable .....so lets go with 300 ft .
The magneitc flux induced by your primary coils will induce voltage in ALL the other coils ........ the fact that some of those coils are also the primary doesn't seem to matter much .
The current is induced where it is induced ......

I am sure that there is some " leakage " between coils ......maybe quite a bit ............but it is not noticeable in the behavior of the JT
The LED was brighter than my other LMs
It may suffer in its ability to output power ......it is to soon to tell about that

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 05, 2009, 10:14:57 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 05, 2009, 10:07:52 PM

choose any 3 consecutive taps for your primararys ..... with this particular coil that makes the primarys 90 ft long .

For maximum voltge you need the secondary to be as long as possable .....so lets go with 300 ft .

...
The current is induced where it is induced ......
gary

OK thanks.
It is very clear.

QuoteIt may suffer in its ability to output power

and then who cares if you are lighting lots of lights with just a bunch of coiled wire?

this is 1.2v battery isn't it?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 05, 2009, 10:16:20 PM

@Resonanceman,

Quote from: resonanceman on June 05, 2009, 09:32:03 PM
Jim

That is interesting .......so my new discovery is ancient history

gary

No Gary, it means you have discovered "another" way to do this , same principle, but another way entirely.
When the 1st way was discovered, there were no Toroids about, none of those hi powered magnets either.

But you have been able to show us all here that you have been able to combine these "new" technologies to do something which was older, clunkier and took more effort.

Well done.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 05, 2009, 10:31:14 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 05, 2009, 10:07:52 PM
Jeanna

OK
I will try to keep this simple .........but be prepared to be confused anyway .

choose any 3 consecutive taps for your primararys ..... with this particular coil that makes the primarys 90 ft long .

For maximum voltge you need the secondary to be as long as possable .....so lets go with 300 ft .
The magneitc flux induced by your primary coils will induce voltage in ALL the other coils ........ the fact that some of those coils are also the primary doesn't seem to matter much .
The current is induced where it is induced ......

I am sure that there is some " leakage " between coils ......maybe quite a bit ............but it is not noticeable in the behavior of the JT
The LED was brighter than my other LMs
It may suffer in its ability to output power ......it is to soon to tell about that

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 05, 2009, 10:37:26 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 05, 2009, 10:14:57 PM
OK thanks.
It is very clear.
and then who cares if you are lighting lots of lights with just a bunch of coiled wire?

this is 1.2v battery isn't it?

jeanna

Jeanna

I am glad that you understand now

I find that when I try to explain something in detail I end up learning it all over again at a deeper level .

Now ........a question I have to ask is .
If we can use the entire coil as a secondary on the one wire LM ........why can't we use the whole coil every time with every JT ?

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 05, 2009, 10:52:27 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 05, 2009, 10:37:26 PM

Now ........a question I have to ask is .
If we can use the entire coil as a secondary on the one wire LM ........why can't we use the whole coil every time with every JT ?

I personally think its a waist of wire , i can get better result with 30 inch on my toroid , and even less, if you use a 30 feet primary how long would a secondary to get reasonable gain ratio, charging a battery its good but some are a bit confused , a circuit that only charges battery is useless , if you don't use the battery then it stays charged , you don't need a charger for that .

I have a question , how can you have secondary since all the coils are connected together.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 05, 2009, 10:54:53 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 05, 2009, 10:37:26 PM

I find that when I try to explain something in detail I end up learning it all over again at a deeper level

I love how that works! I am glad I could help!! ;).

Quote....why can't we use the whole coil every time with every JT ?

1- Why do you think we don't?
and
2- Take a look at the 2 tier circuit. Follow the path of the currents.. they actually do have sections that operate at an enhanced or diminished rate.

Thanks for the reminder. I promised a drawing.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on June 05, 2009, 11:03:48 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 05, 2009, 05:09:11 PMBack then, they called this "make and break".
We are unfamiliar with that term, but before the 20th century, the electrical engineers had to use sparks... for everything including proving there was electricity in the wires.

When Stubblefield referred to the 'normal make and break' we were all puzzled. If you look at some of the writings from back then, you see make and break are referring to sparks, or spark gaps.

i think the "make and break" was a rotary swithching device, kinda like relays.

the reason i think this, is that spark gaps need relatively high voltage to start sparking.
hv was not really what was used the most at that time.
in some researches perhap, but not mainstream.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 05, 2009, 11:15:44 PM

@Jeanna,

Quote from: jeanna on June 05, 2009, 09:49:13 PM
Jim,

Didn't you make this a while back... then something happened to the switch... then I never heard about it anymore??

I am glad it has returned.

thank you!!

jeanna

Gary,
Those are the best discoveries. Then you know you are on to something!!
Are you using welding rod too?

jeanna

Yes, this was my research secondary, I made this to be placed on any JT so I could have a selectable voltage range to play with.
The switch actually fell apart during assembly, it seems this type of multy pin switch can be made to have a variety of different poles, eg 1 pole 2 pole 3 pole 4 pole.

I have it configured as a 1 pole switch, 12 inputs, 1 output.

By soldering all the tap points to each out/in in turn, when I select any of the 12 positions, I get just the voltage out of the toroid I need.

There is only 2 separate wound coils in this one.

The 1st coil takes its power from any JT secondary output.
The second coil is the one which has the selectable tap points.
*************************

Another way to do this is to wind a single large coil, the "tap" coil, directly on to a joule thief itself, then it would be the Primary output coil, but it would have several an adjustable outlets which you can control by a rotrary switch.

You could really now have more control of the energy coming out of the Joule Thief itself, (no more blown LEDs) as you could select the output energy to everything connected to the JT.

In the case of MK1s 2 secondaries, setup, I would just wind them in the same manner, going up and down each side, with tap points in between, but I would only have the tap points on the downward leg, not the upward leg. (unless you find you need more control of the outputs).

This raises the possibility of having a "duel" or "double controlable output, so you would need a duel gang switch, and I have seen them in the various kits and electronic suppliers.

see photo (which I have to make) :D

jim

One ant seems to have been on "walk-a-bout" :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 05, 2009, 11:23:48 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 05, 2009, 10:37:26 PM

Jeanna

I am glad that you understand now

I find that when I try to explain something in detail I end up learning it all over again at a deeper level .

Now ........a question I have to ask is .
If we can use the entire coil as a secondary on the one wire LM ........why can't we use the whole coil every time with every JT ?

gary

OK

I have the primary and secondary in series It does not seem to help the voltage much .... I didn't check the current .

My new coil is helpfull .....................but I will have to make a bigger one.
With this coil it is my LED array is brightest with my new coil maxed out ....... all 300 ft plus 3 toroids and 2 magnets .
The good thing is before it took 4 or 5 coils in series to get this much light

For this setup I am using one of my original LMs that is 300 ft of #30 wire and a primary of 8 turns
I am using only my new multi tap coil for flyback .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 05, 2009, 11:26:16 PM

@all,

The circuit below compliments the one above.

This one below allow you to configure the Adjustable supply out as a Posative, Earth, Negative, but it is the pulsed DC component now at high frequency.

You could place a BRIDGE rectifier accross the Top and Middle outs AND accross the Middle and Lower outputs, so giving a full rectified DC at Hi Hz.
****************************

You could now drive 2 seperate JT primaries or by combining the outputs have "double" the current avaliable to light LEDs or anything else that would work with this configuration.

jim

more to come on this topic

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 05, 2009, 11:44:33 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 05, 2009, 11:23:48 PM
OK

I have the primary and secondary in series It does not seem to help the voltage much .... I didn't check the current .

My new coil is helpfull .....................but I will have to make a bigger one.
With this coil it is my LED array is brightest with my new coil maxed out ....... all 300 ft plus 3 toroids and 2 magnets .
The good thing is before it took 4 or 5 coils in series to get this much light

For this setup I am using one of my original LMs that is 300 ft of #30 wire and a primary of 8 turns
I am using only my new multi tap coil for flyback .

gary

It looks like my multi tap coil is worthless for feedback to source .....if I try to use it as a secondary (while I am using it for creating flyback ) even just one winding the output drops allot .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 05, 2009, 11:45:52 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 05, 2009, 11:23:48 PM
OK

I have the primary and secondary in series It does not seem to help the voltage much ....

It may change the frequency. You have a frequency button on your meter, don't you?

QuoteFor this setup I am using one of my original LMs that is 300 ft of #30 wire and a primary of 8 turns

I was thinking we/you could use one of those fuji transformers that has 1700 turns in one of these tests.

QuoteI am using only my new multi tap coil for flyback .

I have always assumed when you say flyback that you mean the same thing as back-emf.
I am asking just to be sure.

So, you put the new coil in with not a series connection as much as a connection to the tap - wherever the tap is, and this makes the whole thing oscillate.

Am I getting there?
In my mind there is one wire left without a connection.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 05, 2009, 11:51:41 PM

Quote from: electricme on June 05, 2009, 11:26:16 PM
... but it is the pulsed DC component now at high frequency.

You could place a BRIDGE rectifier accross the Top and Middle outs AND across the Middle and Lower outputs, so giving a full rectified DC at Hi Hz.

more to come on this topic

Nice Jim,

This could go somewhere as a beginning generator for big ac power. (well, big in a small sense.)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 05, 2009, 11:54:12 PM

@all,
Introducing the SOP4 Toroid JT.

OK you all have heard of single Phase, Double Phase, and 3 Phase, Hear is my 4 Phase
Special Out Put Toroid 4 which I will call it SOP4 for short.

I wound this just a couple of days ago.
It consists of a standard JT exciter coil/s and the the primary output coils are like this.
I have not connected it to any other component as yet.

I cut 4 wire strands 3 meters long, (3 yards approx), then wound the 1st output coil on the JT.
Then after sore fingers, I put the other 3 wire strands in a batt powered drill and zoomed them up, into a single one, (should have done this with the other one).

Then I wound the zoomed coil on top of the 1st coil.

This makes the 4 seperate coils as the output coils.

Next I plan to connect all of one of the 4 ends together, similar to a "star" winding configuration.
BTW, there willl be another source of energy at the combination point, but it will be less than half of the other ends, it is "floating" energy.

The other "free ends" will be connected to my "Bridged Array" which consists of 8 diodes.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 06, 2009, 12:00:59 AM

Quote from: electricme on June 05, 2009, 11:15:44 PM
@Jeanna,

Yes, this was my research secondary, I made this to be placed on any JT so I could have a selectable voltage range to play with.
The switch actually fell apart during assembly, it seems this type of multy pin switch can be made to have a variety of different poles, eg 1 pole 2 pole 3 pole 4 pole.

I have it configured as a 1 pole in 12 out.

By soldering all the tap points to each out/in in turn, when I select any of the 12 positions, I get just the voltage out of the toroid I need.

There is only 2 separate wound coils in this one.

The 1st coil takes its power from any JT secondary output.
The second coil is the one which has the selectable tap points.
*************************

Another way to do this is to wind a single large coil, the "tap" coil, directly on to a joule thief itself, then it would be the Primary output coil, but it would have several an adjustable outlets which you can control by a rotrary switch.

You could really now have more control of the energy coming out of the Joule Thief itself, (no more blown LEDs) as you could select the output energy to everything connected to the JT.

In the case of MK1s 2 secondaries, setup, I would just wind them in the same manner, going up and down each side, with tap points in between, but I would only have the tap points on the downward leg, not the upward leg. (unless you find you need more control of the outputs).

This raises the possibility of having a "duel" or "double controlable output, so you would need a duel gang switch, and I have seen them in the various kits and electronic suppliers.

see photo (which I have to make) :D

jim

One ant seems to have been on "walk-a-bout" :D

Jim

that looks like a good idea .,,,,, but kind of hard to make

I just stuck the wires though holes in the side of the spool and used hot glue to add a little extre wire to make them stronger .
I use alligator clips for the connections .

I am wondering if something like that could be used for turning a coil ?

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 06, 2009, 12:09:43 AM

@all

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 06, 2009, 12:11:19 AM

Quote from: jeanna on June 05, 2009, 09:59:09 PM
Gadgetmall,

I just made a little breadboard jt with one of those germanium transistors.
It lights beautifully down to 1v, but my eb is 0.835 today.

I put a supercap like the one Bill used last year to light his led directly from the eb, but this didn't work. I added a diode which I put in wrong the first time then fixed, and it didn't work either.

What is it you add to a basic joule thief that you do so normally and I don't do that will make this work?

More caps? base caps of some size... tiny or big?
extremely low value resistor?

Do you use white led?

etc?

thanks

jeanna

Jeanna i wind a big primary bifilar ranging from 25 turns to 50 depending on the toroid and then i use high resistance like 10 k on the base then i try different caps across the resistor . after i see the light get brighter i replace the resistance with one resistor and a pot in series to equal the resistance i found that worked . and i do my Tank circuit with the cap on the wiper of the pot and either end of the pot. Sometimes it works good on the unused end of the pot . sometime the cap works good on the other end of the pot. after i get the circuit lighting a couple of WHITE leds i add a secondary . One my last unit i wound 90 turns 3/4 around for the secondary . i put a ceramic cap and diode on that in series . I take power off the secondary and i also take power off the primary Jt . I have found that when i do that the total current draw drops 80% !! . If you need any help let me know . I have two i made this week and they are running on 300 millivolts and 2 millamps with the 04 transistor i sent you . 04 on the end of the number .Another little trick i do is put a diode and electro cap on the C E . This reduces the total current draw once the cap charges up . i run one led off there and the 25 off the secondary . the glow in the third picture is the EC led . It stays lit for about 2 minutes after i remove power . this is because of the electro cap on that junction .on this one i am using 4 capacitors 2 pots a resistor ,transistor ,33 turns bifilar part of it wound ontop and inbetween the 90 turn secondary . Its wound different in that the collector wire is inbetween the secondary where as the base is in a bunble at the bottom . I don't even thing i could draw a schematic of it tonight . dead tired again .

yall have Good Electric Dreams .
Gadget .
over and out

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 06, 2009, 12:14:07 AM

Quote from: electricme on June 05, 2009, 11:54:12 PM
@all,
Introducing the SOP4 Toroid JT.

OK you all have heard of single Phase, Double Phase, and 3 Phase, Hear is my 4 Phase
Special Out Put Toroid 4 which I will call it SOP4 for short.

I wound this just a couple of days ago.
It consists of a standard JT exciter coil/s and the the primary output coils are like this.
I have not connected it to any other component as yet.

I cut 4 wire strands 3 meters long, (3 yards approx), then wound the 1st output coil on the JT.
Then after sore fingers, I put the other 3 wire strands in a batt powered drill and zoomed them up, into a single one, (should have done this with the other one).

Then I wound the zoomed coil on top of the 1st coil.

This makes the 4 seperate coils as the output coils.

Next I plan to connect all of one of the 4 ends together, similar to a "star" winding configuration.
BTW, there willl be another source of energy at the combination point, but it will be less than half of the other ends, it is "floating" energy.

The other "free ends" will be connected to my "Bridged Array" which consists of 8 diodes.

jim

Jim

It looks like we think alot alike

:)

I have a couple solonoid coils that I made quite a while back .........before the NS earth battery thread .
I have one coil with 4 pairs of wire and another one with 6 pairs .
My plan was to drive one pair with a signal .
another pair or 2 was to be resonate circuits .
One pair would be used as output .
My theory is ....... you can;t tap all of the energy ........ you have to tap it indirectly and leave enough to let it keep ringing .

I never got it working .
I still think it is possible .........this was one of my first tries at buildinig

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 06, 2009, 12:22:20 AM

Quote from: electricme on June 05, 2009, 11:54:12 PM
@all,
Introducing the SOP4 Toroid JT.

OK you all have heard of single Phase, Double Phase, and 3 Phase, Hear is my 4 Phase
Special Out Put Toroid 4 which I will call it SOP4 for short.

I wound this just a couple of days ago.
It consists of a standard JT exciter coil/s and the the primary output coils are like this.
I have not connected it to any other component as yet.

I cut 4 wire strands 3 meters long, (3 yards approx), then wound the 1st output coil on the JT.
Then after sore fingers, I put the other 3 wire strands in a batt powered drill and zoomed them up, into a single one, (should have done this with the other one).

Then I wound the zoomed coil on top of the 1st coil.

This makes the 4 seperate coils as the output coils.

Next I plan to connect all of one of the 4 ends together, similar to a "star" winding configuration.
BTW, there willl be another source of energy at the combination point, but it will be less than half of the other ends, it is "floating" energy.

The other "free ends" will be connected to my "Bridged Array" which consists of 8 diodes.

jim

Oh yea !! I would try a 2n3055 with this one . I have one that has been running for a week now on 3055 . its running 5 20kmcds leds and one 115 kmcd and one 100k mcd . they are turn down a bit but the battery life is doing great for 2n3055 . resistor is 100 k cap 104 . now i dont have your baby there im running a normal jt with 30 turns and 80 turns for the jt . running the lights off C E no secondary .
Cant wait to see this one fire up Jim .

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 06, 2009, 12:51:32 AM

Quote from: jeanna on June 05, 2009, 11:45:52 PM
It may change the frequency. You have a frequency button on your meter, don't you?

jeanna

I have 2 meters that have frequency now .........but neither of them have high frequency ..... if I remember right just up to KHz
I have not used that feature much .

Quote

I was thinking we/you could use one of those fuji transformers that has 1700 turns in one of these tests.I have always assumed when you say flyback that you mean the same thing as back-emf.
I am asking just to be sure.

that is a good idea ...it might allow me to use smaller coils for flyback too.

yes ...... flyback pulses and back EMF .......same thing .

Quote
So, you put the new coil in with not a series connection as much as a connection to the tap - wherever the tap is, and this makes the whole thing oscillate.

Am I getting there?
In my mind there is one wire left without a connection.

For flyback I am using a simple series connection .
With my multi tap coil I am pretending that the windings that are not connected are just not there .
In reality they may be active .....but I think that the majority of the signal will be from the connected windings .
I am just trying to get into the right ballpark ..........a coil made up for the specific JT would have to be tuned anyway .

Just thought I shoule clarify a little .
I said I was using a simple series connection .
I have been using my LM coils for the most part ....... I have been hooking one side of them in series with the load ..... sometimes I connect though the secondary side ......sometimes that side chokes the pulses ..... so I connect which ever works .
I then connect the other side for feedback to source

There is no extra wires .......

all the flyback coils are in series ......all the feedback are in parrallel with 1 diode for each coil

I have one coil that I tend to hook up first for feedback .
it has 2 full coils of the #22 radio shack wire on it (bifiar ).. ... it is good for feedback .....and not to bad for flyback
even though this coil is half and half it is still hooked up exactly like the others .....flyback in series ..... feeback in parrallel

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 06, 2009, 01:00:55 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 06, 2009, 12:09:43 AM
@all

And???

This is what I see Nathan Stubblefield did.
He always seemed to have his generators in pairs.
I see them as a twisted pair of one copper and one iron wire we called the 5 and 6, twisted like the center tap of our joule thief.
Then these 2 were connected to another twisted pair of the other one.
And there was always this globe thing on the top (which is what I believe to be the sparkler. Inside like a vangegraf on the inside making the make and break.) He said you must never do anything with them... (the red and blue on the bottom and the top = 2 sets of these sparklers which equate to our transistor as in the C and E in the JT circuits)

And it was the secondaries that produced all the effect.

YEAY!

How does it perform?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 06, 2009, 01:07:53 AM

@Jeanna

Real well !

the loading effect is greatly reduced , i am still tweaking , this is part of a bigger circuit that has 5 toroid , i am releasing it in part the dummy was the second part , the mk the first . When i give them they are independent , and useful on there own , but they all work together.

Mark

Floyd Sweet and Lester Hendershot also used it , i wonder about Marks ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 06, 2009, 01:08:31 AM

@Resonanceman,
I will explain it to make it easier.

Quote from: resonanceman on June 06, 2009, 12:00:59 AM
Jim

that looks like a good idea .,,,,, but kind of hard to make

I just stuck the wires though holes in the side of the spool and used hot glue to add a little extre wire to make them stronger .
I use alligator clips for the connections .

I am wondering if something like that could be used for turning a coil ?

gary

I understand you, you are referring to just winding more wire onto a stright coil former you buy from the wire supplier, but only if there is enough area left on the spool former to do this.

To tune a coil, hmm.
Now here is another idea, these are coming to me thick and fast at the moment.
This modification will allow you all to "tune" the amount of magnetic influence or density of the flux inside the toroids.

Hi Gary, and all,
If you decide to give this a try, it wont hurt and it will still be a JT output anyway.

Say you want to make a JT with a 200 turn output coil.
Begin by winding on the coil in the usual manner.
Then when you get to 20 turns, just pull the wire out a bit more (about 6") then twist this "loop" where it comes out of the toroid, then go and wind some more turns, make them 20 turns.
Then pull the wire out 6" again, twist, and continue another 10 turns.

Do all this over and over until you have as many outputs as you want from your secondary.

Experimenting with different turns to loops "ratio" will allow you to get the right number of turns between loops.

I always use the thinnest wire I can find, as I can get more turns on the toroid.

This is the same as winding a single coil, but you just take the 30seconds or so to make a loop in the coil.

Tuck the "loops" out of the way when winding.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 06, 2009, 01:11:02 AM

@ Jeanna,

Quote from: jeanna on June 05, 2009, 11:51:41 PM
Nice Jim,

This could go somewhere as a beginning generator for big ac power. (well, big in a small sense.)

jeanna

Thankyou Jeanna.

Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 06, 2009, 01:19:43 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 06, 2009, 01:07:53 AM
@Jeanna
Real well !

OH I AM JUMPING UP AND DOWN!!!
This is sooo exciting.

Quotethe loading effect is greatly reduced

What does this mean? What is the loading effect?

QuoteFloyd Sweet and Lester Hendershot also used it

No wonder. wow... this is sooo cool.

I made so many of those things last year. It is too bad I didn't make any 2 alike!... but then, why would I?

thank you so much,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 06, 2009, 01:30:10 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on June 06, 2009, 12:11:19 AM

Gadget

Thank you gadget,
That is a very thorough answer. And you did all this on an EB?

I just am asking if it worked on the EB. I can get all kinds of things to work on really dead batteries, but not on my EB. I believe it can be done, I just have not been able to actually do it.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 06, 2009, 01:37:52 AM

@all,
WOW, this thread is galloping along this afternoon, (well for me anyway) at this time of the day here I generally have the entire thread to myself, nice to see everyone.

(nice to see all the phantom readers (about 23 at times) along for the ride also ha ha you are more than welcome)

OK all here is a little mod to the top of the Joule Thief I came up with, it involves putting 2 extra pots into where the (+) power enters the JT at the toroid . ends

We generally use 1 resistor at the base of the transistor, it wouldn't matter if this was moved higher up in the circuit as shown.
Then place a second resistor 1k value between the (+) feed into the other side of the JT toroid.

Start the JT with both wipers FULL ON, clockwise, then back eithor off to have further control of the JT.

Perhaps a "tank" circuit could be setup here also, but I havent got to that yet, it just came to me as I was typing this up right now.

@ Gadget, MK1, Gary and Jeanna
Those are good ideas and that double toroid looks wild n cool to me.
I had betta make a note of the last 2 pages and go and read up on them later on.

By the time I get another page ready to post there is another one or three below it ROFL

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 06, 2009, 01:45:13 AM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 06, 2009, 12:14:07 AM
Jim

It looks like we think alot alike

:)

I have a couple solonoid coils that I made quite a while back .........before the NS earth battery thread .
I have one coil with 4 pairs of wire and another one with 6 pairs .
My plan was to drive one pair with a signal .
another pair or 2 was to be resonate circuits .
One pair would be used as output .
My theory is ....... you can;t tap all of the energy ........ you have to tap it indirectly and leave enough to let it keep ringing .

I never got it working .
I still think it is possible .........this was one of my first tries at buildinig

gary

Thanks Gary, yes there are a few of us at times seem to be comeing up with similar ideas at the same time.

Like I mentioned just before, I will have to read up on all the posts today, and there are a lot, I feel sorry for the next crew who come along lol.

Stprue is gonna know what Jeanna went threw to catch up, I know what thats like.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 06, 2009, 01:59:34 AM

@ Jim:

Wow! I just got a chance to download your videos. That 1 watt luxeon was well lit indeed! I really enjoyed hearing the excitement in your voice while filming, I am happy for you. I am confident we can get your EB output up even more. I never used that download section before, it appears to work very well.

Also, great idea on how to wind your super JT coils with the loops, I would have never thought of that. Nice going.

@ Jeanna:

I also saw your videos as well. Great scope shots! You should have said hello while filming though. I am glad you and Jim are posting these scope pictures and videos for us.

Mk: I like your new design. I am so far behind on these new designs you and everyone are making. I can't keep up.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 06, 2009, 03:06:12 AM

@Pirate,
Thanks Bill, I really was excited, this was only the second time I have lit a LED off my EB and it was totally unexpected.

The 1st time saw a LED work off my EB, was about a year ago.
I hooked up the 1st JT I made to it, the LED flashed just 3 times very weakly, and it never lit from the EB again.

This second time I had the 1 Watter Star LED in it's place, now the minimum voltage to light these things is 2.30volts, max is about 4.37volts
I had a 330ohm resistor on one leg of the LED, just in case, and it lit up WOW was I surprised.

1 Luxon Star LED is rated at 825,000 mcd, (Millicandela or thousandths of a Candellela)

@ Jeanna,
I managed to post my videos to the MENU, but how do I get a link back to the JT page, say to here. I tried different ways but couldn't do this, help.

I ask you as I see you have succeeded with doing this with yours.

Thankyou

jim

is

Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 06, 2009, 01:59:34 AM
@ Jim:

Wow! I just got a chance to download your videos. That 1 watt luxeon was well lit indeed! I really enjoyed hearing the excitement in your voice while filming, I am happy for you. I am confident we can get your EB output up even more. I never used that download section before, it appears to work very well.

Also, great idea on how to wind your super JT coils with the loops, I would have never thought of that. Nice going.

@ Jeanna:

I also saw your videos as well. Great scope shots! You should have said hello while filming though. I am glad you and Jim are posting these scope pictures and videos for us.

Mk: I like your new design. I am so far behind on these new designs you and everyone are making. I can't keep up.

Bill

opps, looks like I did this back to front, sorry all.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 06, 2009, 05:04:06 AM

Quote from: jeanna on June 06, 2009, 01:30:10 AM
Thank you gadget,
That is a very thorough answer. And you did all this on an EB?

I just am asking if it worked on the EB. I can get all kinds of things to work on really dead batteries, but not on my EB. I believe it can be done, I just have not been able to actually do it.

jeanna

Jeanna:

I am sure with a little tweaking you can light stuff from your EB. What supercap did you try to use and how did you have it hooked up? I believe you said you were getting around .8 vdc and this should be high enough to run one of your JT circuits. If you want, PM me and we can discuss this and I will try to help you. Just ask Jim, there is nothing like seeing a light illuminated from the earth. I am sure you will love it when it happens. (and it will)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 06, 2009, 07:42:41 AM

@all

I have completed my very first 4 Parallel wound output Joule Thief.

;D ;D ;D ;D IT WORKS yippee ;D ;D ;D ;D

Each output puts out 86 actual measured volts (X 4 = 272 theoretical volts)
Each coil is 86 turns wound on the toroid.

I have coupled together outputs 1, 2, and 3 through separate Bridge Rectifiers, which the Negs outputs are soldered together to the "star" NS terminal.

It appears I can recharge the 1.2v NiMH battery.

The 4th output can also drive a High Brightness LED or my 1 Watt Luxeon Star LED using a Joule Thief.

If this unsusessful I will have to do away with the "star " connection and make seperate outputs from the toroid.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on June 06, 2009, 09:55:02 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on June 06, 2009, 12:11:19 AM
Jeanna i wind a big primary bifilar ranging from 25 turns to 50 depending on the toroid and then i use high resistance like 10 k on the base then i try different caps across the resistor . after i see the light get brighter i replace the resistance with one resistor and a pot in series to equal the resistance i found that worked . and i do my Tank circuit with the cap on the wiper of the pot and either end of the pot. Sometimes it works good on the unused end of the pot . sometime the cap works good on the other end of the pot. after i get the circuit lighting a couple of WHITE leds i add a secondary . One my last unit i wound 90 turns 3/4 around for the secondary . i put a ceramic cap and diode on that in series . I take power off the secondary and i also take power off the primary Jt . I have found that when i do that the total current draw drops 80% !! . If you need any help let me know . I have two i made this week and they are running on 300 millivolts and 2 millamps with the 04 transistor i sent you . 04 on the end of the number .Another little trick i do is put a diode and electro cap on the C E . This reduces the total current draw once the cap charges up . i run one led off there and the 25 off the secondary . the glow in the third picture is the EC led . It stays lit for about 2 minutes after i remove power . this is because of the electro cap on that junction .on this one i am using 4 capacitors 2 pots a resistor ,transistor ,33 turns bifilar part of it wound ontop and inbetween the 90 turn secondary . Its wound different in that the collector wire is inbetween the secondary where as the base is in a bunble at the bottom . I don't even thing i could draw a schematic of it tonight . dead tired again .

yall have Good Electric Dreams .
Gadget .
over and out

Gadget

wait are you saying your disconencting one of the 2 coils on the JT curcuit? i heard some one talking about a single coil JT is that what your doing?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on June 06, 2009, 10:18:09 AM

Quote from: jeanna on June 06, 2009, 01:00:55 AM
And???

This is what I see Nathan Stubblefield did.
He always seemed to have his generators in pairs.
I see them as a twisted pair of one copper and one iron wire we called the 5 and 6, twisted like the center tap of our joule thief.
Then these 2 were connected to another twisted pair of the other one.
And there was always this globe thing on the top (which is what I believe to be the sparkler. Inside like a vangegraf on the inside making the make and break.) He said you must never do anything with them... (the red and blue on the bottom and the top = 2 sets of these sparklers which equate to our transistor as in the C and E in the JT circuits)

And it was the secondaries that produced all the effect.

YEAY!

How does it perform?

jeanna

hey jenna could you pm me with a drawing of that nathan stubblefield generator your talking about if you have one?

that EB stuff is wicked, the wave forms are soo unpredictable and changing, does the frequency change as well? ive got to reference some of teslas work but i think there is something hidden that will release a torrent of energy from the earth and NS might have a similiar idea.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 06, 2009, 11:33:01 AM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on June 06, 2009, 09:55:02 AM
wait are you saying your disconencting one of the 2 coils on the JT curcuit? i heard some one talking about a single coil JT is that what your doing?

Hi Artic . No i still have two wires three ends for a primary JT and an additional secondary . The difference is instead of winding the primary side by side or litz is i wind the base wire in a bundle and the collector coil in between the secondary . There are other differences shuch as the diode electrocap on the C E section of the transistor and ceramic diode on the extra secondary .. making a one coil Jt is easy you just need to use an inductor (looks like a resistor).

@Jeanna . you need to try a few things to boost the current . one if you can find a 3300 uf 10 volt cap put it across the Eb output . then take your best Jt with one led without a secondary and see of it lights . then if it dosnt hook a little super cap across that setup and wait . then see if it lights up . I made the Pill Bottle Jt for Greg as he has the same problem as you except he can't get a jt to work with a battery or an eb ;) His hard drive failed and hes out of contact for a few weeks . So he is relying on me to show the lights . Its almost to much to take on . the pressure . . I have a copper and galvanized pipe eb also and it outputs a weak .9 to 1.020 volts and it light several jts up . some dont light some do . the big Eb with the carbon and magnesium is the way to go . you get chemical and magnetic currents . when the magnetic wave is gone the galvanic takes over . this one lights up a jt without a cap . but the goal of it is to charge an ultra cap and fire off the leds at night .

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 06, 2009, 01:00:46 PM

Quote from: electricme on June 06, 2009, 03:06:12 AM

@ Jeanna,
I managed to post my videos to the MENU, but how do I get a link back to the JT page, say to here. I tried different ways but couldn't do this, help.

I ask you as I see you have succeeded with doing this with yours

Hi Jim,
Sometimes the most unfancy is the easiest.

I highlight the page, up at the top ... the URL
then once back in the reply message box,
I click the globe button and then
paste it into the center where the cursor is.

Remember to move the cursor out of the brackets when finished.

ta da!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 06, 2009, 01:26:04 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on June 06, 2009, 11:33:01 AM
...

@Jeanna . you need to try a few things to boost the current . one if you can find a 3300 uf 10 volt cap put it across the Eb output . then take your best Jt with one led without a secondary and see of it lights . then if it dosnt hook a little super cap across that setup and wait . then see if it lights up.

That is what I did with your ger trx.

I made a little ckt on a breadboard,
then when it did not turn on the light in the BJTL spot, I added a supercap: 1F 5.5v .
Then when that didn't work, I added the diode and
when that was in backwards, I turned it right and it still didn't work.

Quote...So he is relying on me to show the lights . Its almost to much to take on . the pressure

Wow, that IS a lot of pressure. Take at least one friend along with you. You will need all of what a friend can do. Shows are really exhausting. You are "ON" the whole time.

Quote.... but the goal of it is to charge an ultra cap and fire off the leds at night .

I like the idea of having the jt being mounted right inside and being run from a galvanized bucket with carbon rod dug into some sand or dirt, so I want to stick with the zinc, and I will change from the unknown shiny yellow metal to carbon welding rod next.

Thanks for the help,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 06, 2009, 02:23:53 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on June 06, 2009, 10:18:09 AM
hey jeanna could you pm me with a drawing of that nathan stubblefield generator your talking about if you have one?

It isn't possible to pm a pic, so I made an entry with the pics on bills bifilar Stubblefield thread.

Quotehttp://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=4455.msg184731#msg184731

Quotethat EB stuff is wicked, ... release a torrent of energy from the earth and NS might have a similiar idea.

Yes.
As I said on the other thread, but it can be repeated here.

After reading those lectures that Tesla gave to EE's and regular educated folk in 1894, I realized there was a lot that was generally known and understood back then that we do not know or understand.
It was particularly about the spark and how it shows evidence of electricity that caught my eye, but there was more of that nature.

Anyway, I have more pics, but these are what you're looking for I think.
The brochure is pretty interesting about how it is an induction generator. (not... a battery)

Have a look.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 06, 2009, 02:36:02 PM

@ Jeanna:

Those pics are of Stubblefield's telephone device, his earth batteries are the ones in the box that Hans posted. (I have that photo somewhere) They are quite a bit larger than the telephone coils. But, what I don't know, and may never know, is if in those pictures of the phone device, were those rods and coils coming up out of the ground from the EB coils? In other words, were those poles attached to the earth battery coils and we can't see them as they are buried in the ground? I have always wondered about that. We may never know.

Bill ***EDIT*** If I find that pic, I will post it in the Stubblefield topic.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 06, 2009, 02:44:26 PM

Yes, I know, but it is what he used to power his phone devices.

Look closely and you see the familiar shape.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 06, 2009, 03:59:03 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 06, 2009, 02:44:26 PM
Yes, I know, but it is what he used to power his phone devices.

Look closely and you see the familiar shape.

jeanna

Is this what you built ?Bear in mind this thing was enormous . As big as a power transformer on a light pole . There is a picture somewhere showing his inventions and it show how big it was.I estimate it would take over 1000 dollars in wire alone to build this like he did .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 06, 2009, 04:22:48 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on June 06, 2009, 03:59:03 PM
Is this what you built ?Bear in mind this thing was enormous . As big as a power transformer on a light pole . There is a picture somewhere showing his inventions and it show how big it was.

Not the one on top.
That is very confusing and for some reason Bedini included it on the same page.
The complex one in the lower pic is what I and several others built.

I just posted more pics from the brochure on bills bifilar thread. It is where he made the statements that it is an induction coil like the well known kind (at that time which was with sparks) and the electromagnet. This is what the patent office refused to allow.

The last pic from the same brochure is where he states that if you put 2 of these things into the ground and connect them up correctly, they can be used to send the voice at sufficiently loud volume to be adequate for conversation.
Have a look. It is a joule thief/EB. I so love this!

That brochure is not generally available and I treasure it. I have it because of the generosity of the librarian at the library in Murray Museum and Bob Lochte who wrote the book "Kentucky Farmer Invents Wireless Telephone"

jeanna

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=4455.msg184749#msg184749 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=4455.msg184749#msg184749)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 06, 2009, 06:03:28 PM

@All,
I want to pass along a reference to a site with lots of info on induction coils.
I call it Barry's coil gun site. Maybe that is the name.

This page:
http://www.coilgun.info/mark2/rlcsim.htm (http://www.coilgun.info/mark2/rlcsim.htm)

Is a page with a java applet that gives you the simple curve expected from 4 parameters in an induction coil.
Voltage, Resistance, Capacitance, and (um is it inductance?) Henries.

So, with this simulator, you can move the sliders and watch the curve change. There are also numbers like Hz values too.

I think it is air core, but, I find I understand it and I am informed by it more each time I visit the sliders.

Our joule thief circuits are much more complex going both ways etc and having a core, but, for whatever reason, I am passing it along. Maybe someone with more knowledge can use it to help me sometime!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 06, 2009, 08:08:44 PM

@Jaenna,

Quote from: jeanna on June 06, 2009, 01:00:46 PM
I highlight the page, up at the top ... the URL
then once back in the reply message box,
I click the globe button and then
paste it into the center where the cursor is.

Remember to move the cursor out of the brackets when finished.

Thank you Jeanna

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 06, 2009, 08:30:09 PM

Hi everybody,

I think Gary really hit on something yesterday.

He said "loosely coupled" and "interlaced with the primary". If he didn't say those exact 2 things, I heard them that way.

So, today I tried to put 2 pickup coils together to add to the effect (inspired by jim's success yesterday) and DARN! the same thing that always happens did again. The voltage either stayed the same or went down. I did NOT get the effect Jim got at all.

I am trying to work out the deal with the high flux toroid here, so when it went completely out, I wasn't so terribly surprised.

I am also using one of my new germanium transistors from gadget. Man, that is sweet. It just takes so little to turn on it makes a really big difference.

I will switch back to a 2N3904 in a while, I just needed to help this high fluxer along. I also have to have a 103k cap in there too. ---This is a stubborn little toroid!

So,I suddenly remembered what Gary said and what it made me think.

I have some toroids which work.
They work really well in almost all conditions.
They are all on the little tiny tor-23 or the filter.

What the tor-23 ones have in many cases like the berry or xtree or zebra with Kynar, is that the way I wound the pickup is I wound 3-4 turns all in a bunch in between each turn of the primary.

I did this now,

Comparing 2 wires that total 14 turns made to connect in parallel, with one wire of 14 turns made by bunching the turns together, the difference is that by bunching them every single turn adds to the previous one.
None diminish the total.

With every turn the frequency goes down a little bit and the voltage goes up a little bit.

So, in this case... neatness does NOT win. ;D

I do not think it is a neat thing.
I think it is what Gary said... loosely coupled and bunched together instead of very neatly packed together.

Perhaps the bunch is like a multistranded thicker wire for just that place??

Anyway the results are good. Maybe you (everybody) should try this with a dozen turns and compare them to 6 plus 6. I think the dozen will win if you bunch or group 3 turns in between a pair of primary turns. Do it and lets talk about our results??

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 07, 2009, 12:59:30 AM

Today I spent some time putting together a board to run a 3055

in general it lit up my LED array much better than a 2222
I am not sure about how much current it was drawing ......I could not get it to work with a meter set up in the loop
I switched the meter I have been reading battery current with for a month now .........and couldn;t get it to light with the meter hooked up .'

I tried another meter ........same thing .

With my clamp meter it read 1.40 A but I don;t think the clamp is accurate

I remember someone saying that sometimes neon lights are used to protect the base of these transistors . ......I took that to mean they could stand pretty high voltages .
I tried my 18 V battery and saw smoke .
I fried something .....

I can't get it to work now ......maybe tomorow I will find what smoked.

Can someone explain what to look for on the data sheets to find the min and max that the base can take ?

thnaks

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 07, 2009, 02:11:22 AM

Here is a video I made tonight of the Earth Battery and the Fuji Joule Thief running 400 leds outside in my garden:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agqKEed7AOI

@ Gary:

I just have always heard that the 3055's draw more power or need more power to run. I don't have any figures on that however. the lowest turn on volts transistor I have used is still the 3904, but, Gadgetmall sent me a germanium transistor that will work way below anything I have seen so far. I just have not tried it yet.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on June 07, 2009, 07:51:08 AM

Quote from: jeanna on June 06, 2009, 08:30:09 PM
Hi everybody,

I think Gary really hit on something yesterday.

He said "loosely coupled" and "interlaced with the primary". If he didn't say those exact 2 things, I heard them that way.

So, today I tried to put 2 pickup coils together to add to the effect (inspired by jim's success yesterday) and DARN! the same thing that always happens did again. The voltage either stayed the same or went down. I did NOT get the effect Jim got at all.

I am trying to work out the deal with the high flux toroid here, so when it went completely out, I wasn't so terribly surprised.

I am also using one of my new germanium transistors from gadget. Man, that is sweet. It just takes so little to turn on it makes a really big difference.

I will switch back to a 2N3904 in a while, I just needed to help this high fluxer along. I also have to have a 103k cap in there too. ---This is a stubborn little toroid!

So,I suddenly remembered what Gary said and what it made me think.

I have some toroids which work.
They work really well in almost all conditions.
They are all on the little tiny tor-23 or the filter.

What the tor-23 ones have in many cases like the berry or xtree or zebra with Kynar, is that the way I wound the pickup is I wound 3-4 turns all in a bunch in between each turn of the primary.

I did this now,

Comparing 2 wires that total 14 turns made to connect in parallel, with one wire of 14 turns made by bunching the turns together, the difference is that by bunching them every single turn adds to the previous one.
None diminish the total.

With every turn the frequency goes down a little bit and the voltage goes up a little bit.

So, in this case... neatness does NOT win. ;D

I do not think it is a neat thing.
I think it is what Gary said... loosely coupled and bunched together instead of very neatly packed together.

Perhaps the bunch is like a multistranded thicker wire for just that place??

Anyway the results are good. Maybe you (everybody) should try this with a dozen turns and compare them to 6 plus 6. I think the dozen will win if you bunch or group 3 turns in between a pair of primary turns. Do it and lets talk about our results??

jeanna

jenna when you say pickup are you referring to the 3rd coil? or are you using a 2 coil system here?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on June 07, 2009, 08:07:49 AM

jenna i dont know how accurate this thing is and i dont know what all this means yet but i found a wicked setting. check this and make sure you have the inductor and cap showing on the chart.
2.5v 0ohm 750uf 75uh

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 07, 2009, 11:09:34 AM

**deleted**

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 07, 2009, 11:11:17 AM

**deleted**
Sorry for triple post . i had Connection Database Error

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 07, 2009, 11:12:06 AM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 07, 2009, 12:59:30 AM
Today I spent some time putting together a board to run a 3055

in general it lit up my LED array much better than a 2222
I am not sure about how much current it was drawing ......I could not get it to work with a meter set up in the loop
I switched the meter I have been reading battery current with for a month now .........and couldn;t get it to light with the meter hooked up .'

I tried another meter ........same thing .

With my clamp meter it read 1.40 A but I don;t think the clamp is accurate

I remember someone saying that sometimes neon lights are used to protect the base of these transistors . ......I took that to mean they could stand pretty high voltages .
I tried my 18 V battery and saw smoke .
I fried something .....

I can't get it to work now ......maybe tomorow I will find what smoked.

Can someone explain what to look for on the data sheets to find the min and max that the base can take ?

thnaks

gary

Put a 1 ohm resistor in series with your battery then read across it

@all . you do not need to put your amp meter in series with a circuit . Put a one ohm resistor in your circuit and then you can read across it for your current draw . same goes for the output circuit . put a one ohm resistor in series with your Load and you can get an idea of the power out .
BASE Emmiter VOLTAGE is 7 volts max on 2n3055
the input voltage is collector emmiter Is maximum 60 volts
so 60 volts is the max input .
Minium is .7 volts . i am running one now at 0.735 volts

ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM RATINGS
Symbol Parameter Value Unit
NPN 2N3055
PNP MJ2955
VCBO Collector-Base Voltage (IE = 0) 100 V
VCER Collector-Emitter Voltage (RBE Â£ 100W) 70 V
VCEO Collector-Emitter Voltage (IB = 0) 60 V
VEBO Emitter-Base Voltage (IC = 0) 7 V
IC Collector Current 15 A
IB Base Current 7 A
Ptot Total Dissipation at Tc Â£ 25 oC 115 W
Tstg Storage Temperature -65 to 200 oC
Tj Max. Operating Junction Temperature 200 oC
For PNP types voltage and current values are negative.
1/4

Just playing with this mobius rod Jt . its been running over a week contiunious.. not to broght right now but still producing light . 5 20kmcds one 100kmcd and one tophat115kmcds . i use a 100 k resistor on the base and a 104 cap to get this sucker oscillation . the mobius has about*edit* 55 knots and then i wound a single 25 turns over that on an old radio ferite barium rod and run this as a normal jt
Edit . i was wrong the volts can go as low as .5 . i shorted the battery just to see and its .598 and still lights . the last pictur is a recharged 1.3 volts full power . i am starting the test over at 9 days of running
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 07, 2009, 01:23:08 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on June 07, 2009, 07:51:08 AM
jeanna when you say pickup are you referring to the 3rd coil? or are you using a 2 coil system here?

I am sorry to confuse you and probably many others.

The meaning of secondary and pick up is the same.

I have a bifilar primary which basically means a center-tapped primary, but can be made with 2 wires of different colors connected in the center. (and so some people call it 2 wires or 2 primary coils. I think it is one.)

and also

a secondary which is called a pickup. (It is an easier word for me when I am describing the one with a second tier calling it the second tier secondary is a bit too much.)

I hope this explains what you were asking If not, please ask again.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 07, 2009, 01:25:32 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on June 07, 2009, 08:07:49 AM
jeanna i dont know how accurate this thing is and i dont know what all this means yet but i found a wicked setting. check this and make sure you have the inductor and cap showing on the chart.
2.5v 0ohm 750uf 75uh

Right,
but you will always have some resistance.

It is really important to have at least 1.6ohm or 2ohm.

I made one with 3 ohm and changed the cap to 0.075uF (75nF on the slider) and got a similar curve.

About the accuracy, it is a simple equation so not real world and also it is a series circuit. and gadget uses a resistor in series with an inductor both in parallel with a cap. that makes it different.

But I think the joule thief itself is more like the simulator than the base tank.

confused yet? sorry.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 07, 2009, 01:53:59 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on June 07, 2009, 11:12:06 AM
Put a 1 ohm resistor in series with your battery then read across it

@all . you do not need to put your amp meter in series with a circuit . Put a one ohm resistor in your circuit and then you can read across it for your current draw . same goes for the output circuit . put a one ohm resistor in series with your Load and you can get an idea of the power out .
BASE Emmiter VOLTAGE is 7 volts max on 2n3055
the input voltage is collector emmiter Is maximum 60 volts
so 60 volts is the max input .
Minium is .7 volts . i am running one now at 0.735 volts

ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM RATINGS
Symbol Parameter Value Unit
NPN 2N3055
PNP MJ2955
VCBO Collector-Base Voltage (IE = 0) 100 V
VCER Collector-Emitter Voltage (RBE Â£ 100W) 70 V
VCEO Collector-Emitter Voltage (IB = 0) 60 V
VEBO Emitter-Base Voltage (IC = 0) 7 V
IC Collector Current 15 A
IB Base Current 7 A
Ptot Total Dissipation at Tc Â£ 25 oC 115 W
Tstg Storage Temperature -65 to 200 oC
Tj Max. Operating Junction Temperature 200 oC
For PNP types voltage and current values are negative.
1/4

Just playing with this mobius rod Jt . its been running over a week contiunious.. not to broght right now but still producing light . 5 20kmcds one 100kmcd and one tophat115kmcds . i use a 100 k resistor on the base and a 104 cap to get this sucker oscillation . the mobius has about*edit* 55 knots and then i wound a single 25 turns over that on an old radio ferite barium rod and run this as a normal jt
Edit . i was wrong the volts can go as low as .5 . i shorted the battery just to see and its .598 and still lights . the last pictur is a recharged 1.3 volts full power . i am starting the test over at 9 days of running
Gadget

Thanks Gadget

Can you tell me a little more about this mobius JT?

As I understand what a mobius is ...... the name implys that it is either connected to itself ........or feeds back to itself

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 07, 2009, 02:14:03 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 07, 2009, 01:53:59 PM

Thanks Gadget

Can you tell me a little more about this mobius JT?

As I understand what a mobius is ...... the name implys that it is either connected to itself ........or feeds back to itself

gary

I built this one and then i wrapped a straight coil over that and made a Jt . I don't know what it does exactly . i'm experimenting with it . Looks like it runs a long time : I'll try the mobius toroid next time :heres more info http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/tripole.htm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 07, 2009, 02:37:21 PM

@gadget and all

I remember posting this for the group , my reason for doing it was to give idea on coil design , some basic stuff is still not understood by most , i will try to illustrate that point .

First rule , to positive side of the coil is north and the negative south , basic rule , the north is on the side of the inrush of current .

Like in a magnet there are 2 poles , and are acting in the same manner , north is a intake and the south the out take .

Pulled to trough the north pushed out the south .

Those are basic , but reversing the winding direction will also reverse the pole .

A basic coil is bi polar , north and south, in the case of the mobius it has 3 poles , north south north , the winding direction changed in the middle creating a strong south pole on the middle of 2 north pole .

Everyone played with magnets , you all know the magic is when you oppose the 2 magnet field , you need to start playing with the opposition and attraction effect .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 07, 2009, 02:50:09 PM

Hi everyone,
I am interrupting a test to report this.
It is about adding a cap across the base resistor and looking at the voltage drop way way down.

I am getting better and better at understanding what I am seeing on my scope so I understand this better and here is what my scope is showing for the difference without a cap and with a cap.

with all the usual and no led, just the bjt without led
_~~~~~~~~|_~~~~~~~||_~~~~~~~~|_~~
the scope reads this and reports 65volts. but the little wave at the bottom is around 6 or 7 volts. see below:

now with the cap and still no light

_|^`~~|_|^`~~|_|^`~~|_|^`~~|_

the scope reads this and reports 7.7 volts.
It seems the cap can see and smooth out the spikes and incorporate them in the wave. And the scope calls it voltage and shows it. I know the folks with schooling in EE and folks who own scopes know this, but I want to verify it and make this little php drawing for the rest of you. Now back to the kitchenlab!

jeanna

edit
MK1 that is a nice explanation. carry on with that please. I am beginning to understand a little.

Title: Re: Jule Thief RESONANCEMAN LM1 LIGHTING LEDS
Post by: jeanna on June 07, 2009, 03:00:50 PM

Hi everyone,

Gary was able to email this to me. it is his
LM1 lighting his Array

from gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief RESONANCEMAN LM1 LIGHTING LEDS
Post by: resonanceman on June 07, 2009, 03:33:30 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 07, 2009, 03:00:50 PM
Hi everyone,

Gary was able to email this to me. it is his
LM1 lighting his Array

from gary

Thanks Jeanna

This LM 1 was made with a spool of radio shack red wire . 300ft #30 magnet wire
I simply sanded the enamel off the ends and added a primary (8 turns )

No toroid ......although a 1 inch toroid can fit into the center of the spool to raise the permeability

The LED array is out of a LED floodlight that is designed to replace a 45 watt floodlight . It has 60 LEDs
I measured working voltage of this array when I first got it .
It was running at 83 V
In the picture if I remember right it was running around 40 V
With no load the voltage of this coil was about 250V

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief RESONANCEMAN LM1 LIGHTING LEDS
Post by: resonanceman on June 07, 2009, 03:40:52 PM

here is a little theory that I have been working on for a while

Infinite power VS greedy power.

Nature is never greedy .
Nature it always infinite.

Power is part of nature ......therefor it is infinite.
We have been taught only how to be greedy about power.
We have been taught this so that the greedy can keep profiting by our use of their power.

How does infinite power work ?
Just look around you .
Take the sun for example .......the energy it radiates is innfinite for all practical purposes.
All that energy goes out into space and it heats what ever it comes in contact with .
This energy heats anything that it comes in contact with without effort ...... without draining the sun

If we had unlimited technology and tried to be greedy about the suns energy and tried to extract all of that energy from the sun itself .......what do you think the result would be?
It seems to me that the act of taking all the energy would put an end to the sun very quickly /

Same thing with a flame .
If we try to extract all the heat from the flame itself ......the flame goes out .
If we capture the heat a little distance from the flame we can have heat for a much greater time .

With a transformer ........ we create a magnetic " flame " this magnetic field affects everything around it .
If we try to tap this magnetic field right where it is created we can only get out what happens to be there at that moment .
We put out the flame by taking away the heat .
If we back off a bit ........ loosly couple the pickup coil we can collect energy without putting out the flame .
I believe that this is what Jeanna and others have been doing when they light lots of LEDs from secondarys . These secondarys are partly isolated from the magnetic field ( the flame )
Isolating the secondarys even more should produce an output with even less draw from the souce .

We have been taught for many years that taking the energy right from the source is the only way that is possible .
We have been taught that for economic reasons ......in other words greed .

It IS easier to tap the energy right at the source ..........but it is also foolish .
WHY should we kill the energy just to use it ?
We have to remember this every step of the way .
It should be possible to extract energy in a string on pickups . ...........IF we are not greedy .
If we try to take to much at any given point .....the whole system colapses and we gt nothing .
To use infinite energy always protect the source ......always protect the flame .......at every step of the way .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 07, 2009, 06:01:30 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 07, 2009, 02:50:09 PM
edit
MK1 that is a nice explanation. carry on with that please. I am beginning to understand a little.

In my previous explanation i think i have reversed the poles. Edit not really since the field and the coil opposed .

Now that is a one coil setup but think with 2 or 3 coils , try to see the field direction and see attracting field or repulsing one.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 07, 2009, 06:51:19 PM

@all

Resonance Vs Mass

I will start by my explanation with my usual guitar string analogy , if you tuned all the strings to the same note , by picking a string you will induce vibration in all the strings since they are tuned the same , on some strings the vibration will be barely noticeable but the string with a mass closer to the one of the picked string will vibrate more , ideally if you put two exact same mass string will vibrate just the same .

Ok , now what dose that show !

It tell us any mass coil will work together , but some will have a better power transfer ratio , saving on the losses .

So getting a better voltage and power transfer to the secondary , it needs to be mass tuned .

tuning all the strings is like putting caps to get circuit resonance , but with mass to mass , since its the same material and mass the freq is not a issue for power transfer .

@Jeanna

Try something for me , try a toroid directly on the EB , 2 coil on the toroid , make a small and large coil , then connect one coil on the EB, check the the other coil , then try the other way around .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on June 07, 2009, 07:17:41 PM

Lady @jeanna

Even though you have been ignoring me, here is the help you need to light your JT with the EB.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on June 07, 2009, 08:05:59 PM

Don't feel singled out jesus, she's been ignoring me too.

I think she's spending all her time with some guy on the earth battery thread.

Well...at least we have each other huh...they say misery loves company, so maybe we should just enjoy our freedom from fickle women.

*goes off to ponder life*

Seriously though, she just probably missed your post.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 07, 2009, 08:16:14 PM

Ignoring?

My apologies, jesus and cap, ... I did miss 2 of them?

Jesus, I did try the diode on the cap yesterday, and I even hooked it up 2 ways and it didn't start the jt.

with the neg band of the diode facing the pos side of the cap.
What if I put 2 caps together in series? Would that do it with the diode?

Thanks for the help.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 07, 2009, 08:40:42 PM

@jeanna

Sorry I have not posted those results as of yet I have been working non stop :( Can you please PM what you wanted to know again. I should have a few hours off tomorrow night.

@Jim

Got your V-Main Lets talk if at all possible this next week. Working hard and hav been away from the lab / kitchen table.
Should be free a few nights this week.

@all

WOW I can not keep up with all the posts. This is indeed very exciting stuff.

Take care!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 07, 2009, 08:48:26 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on June 05, 2009, 11:03:48 PM
i think the "make and break" was a rotary swithching device, kinda like relays.

the reason i think this, is that spark gaps need relatively high voltage to start sparking.
hv was not really what was used the most at that time.
in some researches perhap, but not mainstream.

In looking for the post from jesus that I missed, I found that I had missed this one as well.

I have a quote from master Tesla.
He does not directly say that the make and break is sparks. he does by inference, however.
He is advising the use of an alternator here, but for the last many pages in his lecture he has been describing spark gaps and how to fix the problems.... and most recently he was describing how easily people came to wrong conclusions about sparks and where they are coming from.

QuoteIn order to make reliable observations of electric resonance
effects it is very desirable, if not necessary, to employ an alter-
nator giving currents which rise and fall harmonically, as in
working with make and break currents the observations are not
always trustworthy, since many phenomena, which depend- on
the rate of change, may be produced with widely different fre-
quencies.

Please excuse this outburst.

jeanna

@jesus,
I cannot find the post I missed. I am NOT ignoring you.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 07, 2009, 09:18:51 PM

Quote from: altrez on June 07, 2009, 08:40:42 PM
@jeanna

Sorry I have not posted those results as of yet I have been working non stop :( Can you please PM what you wanted to know again. I should have a few hours off tomorrow night.

-Altrez

Hi Altrez,
I want to know how this big toroid core works for you. And the way I want to know is to ask you to use a regular joule thief circuit and measure the frequency and volts off each secondary/pickup you have wound.

but first I will need the transistor, battery voltage, if you are using a cap, one led or none on the basic jt, the resistor value all on the joule thief.

I guess I will want to know how many turns are on the primary also.
You know like 4T,5T,94T that kind of basic information.

So after the jt is going, put the aligator clip on one side of one pickup wire and then the probe on the other. Adjust the scope for best voltage which is usually where the curve is too small to examine it, then zoom in with both voltage and frequency, and place the markers on the same spot of the wave (same spot plus 1) and read the frequency.

I would like to know what that is on the various number of turns. If they are all the same then only do this once.

I guess this is it. ;) You posted pictures and a lot in the beginning but I never saw these basic pieces of information. And besides the scope was so new and all...

thanks a lot,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 07, 2009, 09:39:01 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 07, 2009, 02:50:09 PM
Hi everyone,
I am interrupting a test to report this.
It is about adding a cap across the base resistor and looking at the voltage drop way way down.

I am getting better and better at understanding what I am seeing on my scope so I understand this better and here is what my scope is showing for the difference without a cap and with a cap.

with all the usual and no led, just the bjt without led
_~~~~~~~~|_~~~~~~~||_~~~~~~~~|_~~
the scope reads this and reports 65volts. but the little wave at the bottom is around 6 or 7 volts. see below:

now with the cap and still no light

_|^`~~|_|^`~~|_|^`~~|_|^`~~|_

the scope reads this and reports 7.7 volts.
It seems the cap can see and smooth out the spikes and incorporate them in the wave. And the scope calls it voltage and shows it. I know the folks with schooling in EE and folks who own scopes know this, but I want to verify it and make this little php drawing for the rest of you. Now back to the kitchenlab!

jeanna

edit
MK1 that is a nice explanation. carry on with that please. I am beginning to understand a little.

Thanks for this info.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 07, 2009, 09:53:27 PM

@ jeanna

The area in the spikes on the scope correspond to the power being delivered to the load. As you can see, with the cap the voltage is less but there is more area in the spikes thus more power is being delivered to the load with the base cap. At least that is how I would interpret what you posted.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 07, 2009, 10:26:25 PM

Quote from: xee2 on June 07, 2009, 09:53:27 PM
QuoteThanks for this info.
you are welcome.

@ jeanna

The area in the spikes on the scope correspond to the power being delivered to the load. As you can see, with the cap the voltage is less but there is more area in the spikes thus more power is being delivered to the load with the base cap. At least that is how I would interpret what you posted.

I kind of agree in that the total area under the spike seems to be what can be used. It is the reason I keep going for the "quality" of wave.

On the other hand, Tesla says the higher rate of increase (in volts) is more important than just the increase, indicating that the fast veritcal spike is able to deliver more.

It is for this reason that I am unsure if I should use the cap.

It seems I should, because the folks with the best results all seem to be using them in their circuits.
And you have them in 2 places and light fluoros with ease. I think the cap you have for reading your results may be helping with lighting too.

My mind is going back and forth like my toroids today. Maybe it is time for dinner.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 08, 2009, 12:03:12 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 07, 2009, 06:51:19 PM

@Jeanna

Try something for me , try a toroid directly on the EB , 2 coil on the toroid , make a small and large coil , then connect one coil on the EB, check the the other coil , then try the other way around .

I am afraid I do not understand your request.

You want me to pass the earth frequency and voltage through the toroid using one winding then look at it through the scope through another winding?

Are there any special numbers you have in mind? Just straight winds?

It will soon be dark.

I will see if I can find one or very quickly make one and have a peek.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 08, 2009, 12:26:21 AM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on June 07, 2009, 10:26:25 PM
On the other hand, Tesla says the higher rate of increase (in volts) is more important than just the increase, indicating that the fast veritcal spike is able to deliver more.

This is also correct. The coupling between coils depends on rate of change only. So fast rise in collector coil is good. In pickup coil, area is good because that is what will deliver power to load. So in general I think you are correct in saying that rate of change is most important in JT.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 08, 2009, 12:39:16 AM

Quote from: xee2 on June 08, 2009, 12:26:21 AM
.. In pickup coil, area is good because that is what will deliver power to load.

In the pickup the area is the important thing so I have not been wasting my time trying to get a fatter curve in my pickup coils?

This is comforting at the end of a frustrating day. ;D

So, thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 08, 2009, 01:05:45 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 07, 2009, 06:51:19 PM
@Jeanna

Try something for me , try a toroid directly on the EB , 2 coil on the toroid , make a small and large coil , then connect one coil on the EB, check the the other coil , then try the other way around .

OK,
I used my little tor-23 for this. It is the one that gets high frequency the easiest.

I wrapped 5 turns around it and on the other side wrapped 15 turns.

I connected the 15 turns to my scope and went outside and connected the 5 turns to the earth battery. So, this should multiply the EB to 15 times the voltage or at least some more?

nothing.
down to 0.005v per division and anywhere from low to high frequency range, there was nothing on the scope.

the scope was reading 2/4MHz the other morning.
I will do it again in the day. I think the sun in the sky above does help the eb, so on the chance that it will show me something, I will do it again. first with just the EB across the scope probes then the toroid as transformer .

15 turns may be too little to see a transformation effect.

Oh and the dmm sees 0.771v across those 2 wires. Pretty little!

How would you suggest connecting a joule thief wound toroid directly to an eb?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 08, 2009, 02:00:38 AM

@Altrez
OKi-doki

Quote from: altrez on June 07, 2009, 08:40:42 PM
@Jim

Got your V-Main Lets talk if at all possible this next week. Working hard and hav been away from the lab / kitchen table.
Should be free a few nights this week.

@all

WOW I can not keep up with all the posts. This is indeed very exciting stuff.

Take care!

-Altrez

I see there is a disagreement on who had the Kitchen Test Bench/Dinna table lol.
OK Al-J I will try again next week :D I had to stand way off from screen to work out some of it.

I will make a flat cutout of the world and put a axle in the middle, with the sun on the left and see if this world computer will give me a better idea on the right time to ring you.

jim

@all,
I think I will tear up my EB and see what they are doing.

@Gadget,
Make a double Joule Thief out of one of your big carbon rods, wind on it that layer which the half stitching on it, all the way from end to end.

Then see if it can use the magnetic field from it.

jim

@all,
I have successfully made a QUAD output from a Joule Thief.
I used a stock standard toroid.
Wound the usual stock standard JT on it.
Wound the 4 separate secondaries, but I twisted the 4 strands of wire in the drill, then hand wound the toroid.

65 turns = 65 volts on each output.

I can run 4 separate circuits, just by the single JT.

If all the loads are identical, then the load is shared, if the load is heaver on one output, it drains some of the other 3 energy from them.

@Jeanna,
Adding a diode to the EB will cut back voltage output by the amount the diodes forward volt is set eg if the diode needs .6volt before it will pass, and the EB puts out 1.0v you only get .4 volt out
I tested this yesterday, Geranium diodes are the best to use.

You might be able to use a transistor also. Connect just the Base to EB, connect emitter to load, collector leave free.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 08, 2009, 02:15:54 AM

@all,

Demonstrating how the 4 parallel output on a single JT toroid is affected by a unequal load.
0846 = the toroid itself
0870 = 4 LEDs identical loads
0871 = 1 Watt Luxeon Star LED in circuit, draws energy from bottom led, the 1 watt LED is a lot lot brighter.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 08, 2009, 02:47:17 AM

@electricme

Nice work !

Look good !

Not to brag but on my mk8 i got 16 secondary . ;D

Ok i brag a bit , but seriously keep the good work!

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 08, 2009, 04:18:09 AM

@MK1,
I had a little chuckle at this below, lol

Quote from: Mk1 on June 08, 2009, 02:47:17 AM
@electricme

Nice work !

Look good !

Not to brag but on my mk8 i got 16 secondary . ;D

Ok i brag a bit , but seriously keep the good work!

Mark

Welllllll maby I had better try a 32 parallel toroid ha ha.

Thanks Mark.

@all,
It took me about an hour to do this, arrrrrhhhha

Today this afternoon,
I DIGGED a hole hole in my back yard..................................shhh dont tell da missus
I GOTTED a dinna plate and I, I, I, I, (it was a clean dinna plate). dont tell er eiver
I TOOKDED a black ink felt tipped quill,,,,, (it was mine)
I DRAWEDED a black line around da DINNA plate on a sheet of COPPER and STEEL.

I GOTTA 4 nylon threaded bolts, washers and nuts.
I TOOKA ma tin snipps and CUTTED a circle ina copper an tha steel sheet.

AND i am twyin to make a thingie, watch-a-ma-call-it, a-doo-dad.

Tomorrow
I GOTTa lots a nice shiny rocks to put ina it.

Then I gotta attatch some wires to DA thingie an a plastic tooob, then BURY it.
an cover it up.

A NEW EARTH BATTERY. A ROUND ONE

something that looks like this.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 08, 2009, 05:02:51 AM

@Jeanna,

Quote from: jeanna on June 07, 2009, 08:48:26 PM
In looking for the post from jesus that I missed, I found that I had missed this one as well.

I have a quote from master Tesla.
He does not directly say that the make and break is sparks. he does by inference, however.
He is advising the use of an alternator here, but for the last many pages in his lecture he has been describing spark gaps and how to fix the problems.... and most recently he was describing how easily people came to wrong conclusions about sparks and where they are coming from.

Please excuse this outburst.

jeanna

Is there any chance of getting a copy of this book, where you are reading this from please Jeanna, I really want to see this.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 08, 2009, 07:13:22 AM

Quote from: electricme on June 08, 2009, 02:00:38 AM
@Altrez
OKi-doki

I see there is a disagreement on who had the Kitchen Test Bench/Dinna table lol.
OK Al-J I will try again next week :D I had to stand way off from screen to work out some of it.

I will make a flat cutout of the world and put a axle in the middle, with the sun on the left and see if this world computer will give me a better idea on the right time to ring you.

jim

:) I think you called me at 4:00 in the AM here the other day. I had just worked a 15 hour shift and was sleeping lol.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 08, 2009, 07:16:56 AM

Quote from: electricme on June 08, 2009, 02:15:54 AM
@all,

Demonstrating how the 4 parallel output on a single JT toroid is affected by a unequal load.
0846 = the toroid itself
0870 = 4 LEDs identical loads
0871 = 1 Watt Luxeon Star LED in circuit, draws energy from bottom led, the 1 watt LED is a lot lot brighter.

Nice work. I am seeing the same thing if you make a load on different sizes on each JT pickup coil. You can adjust the output. I have increased grunt work on one as well. Using rheostats pots and resistors on the pickup coils them self's.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 08, 2009, 07:25:16 AM

@Mk1
I hooked my best torroid with a few primary's and a large secondary to the eb . Nothing . At least for the minute i did that little test for you . I see your point . some may have better results and also when we figure out how to Frequency tune these suckers to the resonate ac in the ground it may show something.I have a signal generator but no scope . I could find the resonate signal but its not accurate enough to say 2.5 Mhz or 7.5 mhz . that's what we are looking for i think for any effect from a coil and the earth . Of course i can run a transistor from the earth and power the jt which is cool and its a matter of messing with the frequency's to get the most output i think . Here is my Jt powered by a copper rod and galvanized pipe . that's a 3300 10 volt on the side running the Jt . that Jt is a simple boost circuit using an inductor instead of a toroid . Also is a 3 volt module and runs two leds continuous from that Eb . the other side is using the copper and a piece of aluminum and charging a tiny super cap . my Big eb is charging an ultra cap (not shown) so i have three Ebs running now .

Gadget .

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 08, 2009, 07:31:25 AM

Quote from: jeanna on June 07, 2009, 09:18:51 PM
Hi Altrez,
I want to know how this big toroid core works for you. And the way I want to know is to ask you to use a regular joule thief circuit and measure the frequency and volts off each secondary/pickup you have wound.

but first I will need the transistor, battery voltage, if you are using a cap, one led or none on the basic jt, the resistor value all on the joule thief.

I guess I will want to know how many turns are on the primary also.
You know like 4T,5T,94T that kind of basic information.

So after the jt is going, put the aligator clip on one side of one pickup wire and then the probe on the other. Adjust the scope for best voltage which is usually where the curve is too small to examine it, then zoom in with both voltage and frequency, and place the markers on the same spot of the wave (same spot plus 1) and read the frequency.

I would like to know what that is on the various number of turns. If they are all the same then only do this once.

I guess this is it. ;) You posted pictures and a lot in the beginning but I never saw these basic pieces of information. And besides the scope was so new and all...

thanks a lot,

jeanna

Ok Lets see if I can get started,

1. I want to know how this big toroid core works for you.
I seem to have great luck with the coil. I have got over 400volts out put with not much effort at all.

2. Frequency and volts off each secondary/pickup you have wound.
Ok I will get this done this evening.

3. I will need the transistor, battery voltage, if you are using a cap, one led or none on the basic jt, the resistor value all on the joule thief.
The transistor is a TIP31 from radio shack The battery voltage is supplied from a Radio Shack rechargeable 1.2 AA battery. How would you like the voltage under load or off load?
There is a small ceramic cap on the charging battery with a blocking diode. I use a 10k pot in place of the resistor It allows for fine tuning. I have noticed that as the source battery drains you can adjust the Pot to keep the circuit running. And once you find the sweet spot spikes charge the source battery to a point. No LEDS on the main circuit all on pickup coils.

4.I guess I will want to know how many turns are on the primary also.You know like 4T,5T,94T that kind of basic information.

12/12 on basic JT pickups very from 15 to 148 or so.

I will post the scope info after work :)

Take care!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 08, 2009, 10:16:14 AM

@Altrez

Quote from: altrez on June 08, 2009, 07:16:56 AM
Nice work. I am seeing the same thing if you make a load on different sizes on each JT pickup coil. You can adjust the output. I have increased grunt work on one as well. Using rheostats pots and resistors on the pickup coils them self's.

-Altrez

Thats very interresting indeed, BTW sorry about disturbing you beauty sleep, being on the other side of the world is a marvelous excuse lol, and upside down to boot.

Its midnight here, my eyes are rolling around in their sockets ha ha.

Tomorrows a big day for me, gotta bury a NS earth battery and see if it can match the copper rods outputs.

hoo roo
jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 08, 2009, 10:36:28 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 08, 2009, 02:47:17 AM
@electricme

Nice work !

Look good !

Not to brag but on my mk8 i got 16 secondary . ;D

Ok i brag a bit , but seriously keep the good work!

Mark

LOL :) ;D ;D LOL

NOT TO BRAGGGG LOL I LOVE IT BRO .... YOU ROCK LOL

JEANNA YOU HAVE DONE SUCH A WONDERFUL JOB ...

THIS IS GONE FULL CIRCLE NOW!!

I HAVE GROWEN ... AND TO BE AN EXAMPLE FOR THOSE THAT CHOOSE THE TRUTH ..

:)

PEACE TO ALL

BTW I JUST DESIGNED MY IST SHOCK YA! ROCKS ... ;)

HOW ELSE DO YOU THINK I FIGURED OUT WHAT I HAVE ... ;D

THE STONES OF COURSE ...

IST!

GOT YOUR CONCUESSNESS LINK? ;) AND I STILL CANT SPELL ENGLISH .... LOL HUMMMMM

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on June 08, 2009, 11:24:54 AM

Lady @jeanna

No problem with the ignoring me. I know that you are a busy lady.
About the diode.
What @electricme says is true. The diode will use some of the voltage available to work.
I usually use 1n60 that takes less voltage to work.

@capzero

Good joke !

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 08, 2009, 12:18:58 PM

@all

http://www.google.com/patents?id=-EBAAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&source=gbs_summary_r&cad=0_0#PPA1,M1

Eb patent with a transformer action.

Mark

Electricme

This is the tesla book http://www.scribd.com/doc/13040608/The-Researches-of-Nikola-Tesla-1894

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 08, 2009, 12:20:47 PM

@ electricme

Quote from: electricme on June 08, 2009, 04:18:09 AM
A NEW EARTH BATTERY. A ROUND ONE
something that looks like this.

I am not an expert on earth batteries, But, I bet it would work even better if you mixed a lot of salt with the rocks between the plates. I think you will also need to put it somewhere that water can get between the plates. If you put a piece of each electrode in a glass of saltwater you will get a voltage between them. But you probably know all of that already.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 08, 2009, 12:25:25 PM

@xee2

There are 2 type of electrolyte acidic and alkaline , the earth battery , also needs electrolyte , it mostly use potassium in the ground , slat is not that good for electrolyte , its easy to get but ...

I could suggest fertilizing with a high potassium content .

I wont mess up the soil.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 08, 2009, 12:48:40 PM

@ Mk1

Quote from: Mk1 on June 08, 2009, 12:25:25 PM
I wont mess up the soil.

Good point. Plants do not like salt.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 08, 2009, 01:37:31 PM

Quote from: xee2 on June 08, 2009, 12:20:47 PM
@ electricme

I am not an expert on earth batteries, But, I bet it would work even better if you mixed a lot of salt with the rocks between the plates. I think you will also need to put it somewhere that water can get between the plates. If you put a piece of each electrode in a glass of saltwater you will get a voltage between them. But you probably know all of that already.

Hi . Yea we know that and the problem with that is it's short lived . Earth Battery should be part galvanic and part magnetic to slow down the corrosion on the metals . I expect a piece of magnesium or copper and carbon to last 20 to 50 years of output . a Salywater battery maybe a month at the most .It has been said that if you put your eb in high growing weeds it produces even more current as they grow .Harmonious

Hey Mk why can't we spell salt :)
A little more on Mobius and Earth
One of the best things to put in the loop with a mobius coil is one or more other mobius coils! Whether passive or powered by an earth battery. indeed I highly recommend putting several devices in series on one loop fed by an earth battery. The coils feed off each other.

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 08, 2009, 02:00:38 PM

@gadget

You got me there , bros ::) :-[ :-X

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 08, 2009, 02:03:49 PM

GADGET!!

that is a cool a$$ coil you got there .....

lol

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 08, 2009, 02:22:48 PM

For a true earth battery, you do not want any electrolyte. If you stick the materials in a salt bath, you will just have a galvanic battery which are well understood. you will also only max out at 1.5 volts output as all galvanic batteries do and never see 1.9, 2.3 and 2.5 volts as you can get from a well set-up EB. As Gadget said, if you have simply a galvanic battery, you are consuming one of the materials and it will not last long at all. A good EB can run and run for many years with no maintenance.

I have some experience with this. Last year, I took one of my Stubblefield coils that took me days to wind. This coil was planted in my garden and had a decent output of both volts and amps. Someone in our group suggested adding a "little" vinegar to the soil around it to boost the output. Well, you know me, I'll try anything once if it might boost output so...I added what could be described as a generous amount of vinegar to the soil and.......my mA's jumped from 35 to 490 right away but my volts went down from 2.25 to 1.51. I was able to run some stuff off of it but, about a day later, the output dropped to 0 and it has stayed 0 ever since. I dug it up just a little while back and it was totally destroyed. The metals were totally gone.

@Jim:

Where is that design you are making from? I have not seen any of the Stubblefield patents that look anything like that one. Good luck with it. It has a lot of surface area and may I suggest that you make the hole large enough so you can mount it on its side (vertical) and change the direction it faces as you test the output. I see the drawing shows it mounted horizontal but I don't see why they do it that way. I can't wait to see what happens with it.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 08, 2009, 03:10:12 PM

Quote from: electricme on June 08, 2009, 05:02:51 AM
@Jeanna,

Is there any chance of getting a copy of this book, where you are reading this from please Jeanna, I really want to see this.

jim

Hi Jim,
It is that long book from scribd. I sent the link to you.
I don't remember if you got it or didn't. It takes a while to read because it is all scanned. As I read a page I usually copy it and paste it into a text file that complements the book. Of course from there it is easy to find references... well, not easy but the pages turn faster.

I think you put it onto a thumb drive?
I found it. Here it is:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/13040608/The-Researches-of-Nikola-Tesla-1894 (http://www.scribd.com/doc/13040608/The-Researches-of-Nikola-Tesla-1894)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 08, 2009, 03:25:23 PM

Quote from: altrez on June 08, 2009, 07:31:25 AM
Ok Lets see if I can get started,

1. ... I have got over 400volts out put with not much effort at all.

Yes, that is why I want the details. I have not had the same luck?

Quote2. Frequency and volts off each secondary/pickup you have wound.
Ok I will get this done this evening.

Thank you I look forward to this information

Quote3.The transistor is a TIP31 from radio shack The battery voltage is supplied from a Radio Shack rechargeable 1.2 AA battery. How would you like the voltage under load or off load?

That is what I wanted. the battery is 1.2 or so.

Quote
There is a small ceramic cap on the charging battery with a blocking diode.
... I use a 10k pot in place of the resistor It allows for fine tuning. I have noticed that as the source battery drains ...

Please, for these tests, dismantle that part so I do not have that to add any possible confusion.
So, what is the resistor without the charging thing going on?
thanks

QuoteNo LEDS on the main circuit all on pickup coils.

excellent.

Quote4.12/12 on basic JT

Thank you. mine are 3T,10T, I will try 12/12 even though mine seemed to slow down when I added more than these.

Quotepickups vary from 15 to 148 or so.

I will post the scope info after work :)

OK great!
Thank you

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 08, 2009, 03:25:36 PM

@Pirate / i answered your question about the Eb Jim Is Building you asked a few post back but jeanna raised a fit(Complained) so i deleted it . Damn Sorry !!
I'm Not hunting a whole board for one stinking explanation to answer a question for someone when i got the answer right here in frontof ME . How was i to know that battery was there in another thread , Its not Stubblefields Invention and i posted it a few posts Back .It a COOL EARTH BATTERY / JT POWER SOURCE Patented By John Hayworth in 1864 . It uses dissimilar metal disk . Different Variation Include Sulfur Encased to increase Current . More Jt power . ?????and NEVER MIND . . Im gone ! My Nerves are SHOT TODAY AND I DON"T NEED ANY NEGATIVE VIBES FROM HERE .Some people moved . i didn't and i'll say it again . you can skip over em if you don't like em . My Jts from from My Earth Battery . Thats how there hooked up .
Good luck Jim , Pirate .

OVER AND OUT !

GADGET

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 08, 2009, 03:43:27 PM

OK you guys,
It is my turn to complain.

There are 2 earth battery threads in which we exhaustively discussed the elements of making the battery ... what and how of all of it.... and on and on... It is already written down!

So, the information is already there.

I have NO problem adding a reference to a stubblefield or any other kind of earth battery here IF it related to the joule thief.

Not because it is not interesting, but because it has already been discussed and experimentally proven or disproven. But on those other threads.

I have moved my earth battery comments over there. If there is something that belongs here because it is an earth battery running a joule thief, that is great,
but to be RE_POSTING old patents and drawings that we have already discussed on the other thread is a waste of time for the folks who have slow dialup
and it takes away from the continuity of the joule thief information.

So, PLEASE put it there.

Gadget, instead of reposting that thing from bedini, please describe how you have connected the transistor of your joule thief to the eb directly and whatever details follow that. how many lights if you needed extra caps anywhere etc...

thank you all,

jeanna

EDIT
There are 2 main earth battery threads.
The first one to read was started by localjoe. He later changed the name to

Nathan Stubblefield Earth battery/Self Generating Induction Coil Replications

There is where you will find the beginning.
Later Bill added a thread to separate out the Stubblefield interest from the probes in the ground and he calls it

Stubblefield coils (bifilar) and speculations

Some people moved over, but for a while there were posts on both of these threads on both kinds of earth batteries.

I hope this helps.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 08, 2009, 05:19:33 PM

@MK1 and anyone who could help with this,

I have this 3 1/2 inch I call the biggo.
It took 3T,10T to oscillate.
(This is the same one Altrez uses I believe and he uses 12T,12T, so, I will try that later, but for now)
I have this thing that happens with the secondary.
Today's set up uses:

2k2ohm resistor
1.2v batt
2N3904Transistor

The first half of the pick up alone gives me
89v @ 15.3KHz

The second half gives me:
80V @15.3KHz

If I put them together in "series (so the one that comes up from the bottom and would continue over the top is attached to the one on the other side that IS going over the top.)
This gives me

74V @ 11KHz

This is less than either half. The curve is nicer, but not that much to be worth the loss.

If I connect them in parallel, they give:

12.25v @ 15.5KHz

So, that isn't it either. That is a crazy wave which has a lot of high frequency but short spikes bunched together in a periodic way.

So, my question is...

How do I fix this?

I could run 2 appliances off the 2 parts IF they were enough voltage themselves, but they are not.

I think I have tuned this toroid.
Maybe I should wait and try Altrez's 12/12 turns first then ask,
but here it is.

thanks for any help.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on June 08, 2009, 05:48:13 PM

@ Jeanna...re your confusion about your Tesla quote.

" In order to make reliable observations of electric resonance effects it is very desirable, if not necessary, to employ an alter-nator "

What I believe he may have meant by that, as he 'apparently' then seemed focused on spark gaps, is that he was just using the alternator as a measuring device.

Hope that helps.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on June 08, 2009, 05:54:54 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 07, 2009, 08:48:26 PM
QuoteIn order to make reliable observations of electric resonance
effects it is very desirable, if not necessary, to employ an alter-
nator giving currents which rise and fall harmonically, as in
working with make and break currents the observations are not
always trustworthy, since many phenomena, which depend- on
the rate of change, may be produced with widely different fre-
quencies.

you might be right.

but, to me, the above quote does not say i am wrong in my thinking either.

using a relay, or a rotary switch, to create pulses of current also create "distorsions", switch bouncing (http://www.ikalogic.com/debouncing.php)<---link, in that current.

an alternator will give a smoot signal.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 08, 2009, 06:10:12 PM

@Jeanna

There are 4 ways to connect 2 coils in series and 2 in parallel.

Have you tuned the toroid ?

With a pot ? Check with different jt coils config.

I know you made exhaustive test , but did you ever tried my way tuning the pot every time you change the coil config, i made test with many caps , so far they are good for saving energy , lowering the amp draw.

But i never got better voltage then what my pot test gave me , so i guess my way is just faster .

You may not have enough on the jt side.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on June 08, 2009, 06:12:32 PM

Quote from: electricme on June 08, 2009, 02:00:38 AM
If all the loads are identical, then the load is shared, if the load is heaver on one output, it drains some of the other 3 energy from them.

the loads matter in a specific way.

remember what mk1 posted a while ago.
the current is always the same in all coils no matter the loads you put on the coils or on what coil you put it.
the coils are "resistors" is series.

the true definition is: they are impedence in series.
the total impedence change with the load(s) and/or the frequency.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on June 08, 2009, 06:37:20 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 08, 2009, 12:03:12 AM
I am afraid I do not understand your request.

You want me to pass the earth frequency and voltage through the toroid using one winding then look at it through the scope through another winding?

Are there any special numbers you have in mind? Just straight winds?

It will soon be dark.

I will see if I can find one or very quickly make one and have a peek.

jeanna

ok MK1 if you want to pass the EB energy through a coil and collect the energy on the other coil then i can say i had no luck with it. but it could be my torroid

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 08, 2009, 08:50:51 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 08, 2009, 06:10:12 PM
@Jeanna

There are 4 ways to connect 2 coils in series and 2 in parallel.

Yes, I only posted 3 but there are 4.

QuoteHave you tuned the toroid ?

I tuned it a lot with wires. and turns. I could not even get this big one to turn on at first and after I got it to turn on a BJTLed I stopped. Then I added the MK1 secondary.

QuoteWith a pot ?

Not yet.

QuoteCheck with different jt coils config.

What are different jt config?

I am asking if the voltage always goes down to half of what it was.
Why should the tuning stop the secondary from canceling itself out? More than canceling out. adding the 2 sides made this less than the first half in series and 1/8 of one half in parallel?

What I am understanding from this answer is that sometimes the voltage goes down after the second half is wound, but only if the primary is not tuned.
Is that correct?

Quote
I know you made exhaustive test , but did you ever tried my way tuning the pot every time you change the coil config, i made test with many caps , so far they are good for saving energy , lowering the amp draw.

But i never got better voltage then what my pot test gave me , so i guess my way is just faster .

OK
I will try to tune it with a pot with every turn.
I must not understand what you are doing, so I will just try to do it and see what I get.

QuoteYou may not have enough on the jt side.

I will try more jt turns even though the voltage has dropped every time I have gone to a higher number of turns.

Let me ask this:
Did you ever see the voltage turn and go higher as you add more turns? I mean after it was first dropping?
I will try that even though it does not make sense to me.

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 08, 2009, 09:07:42 PM

@Jeanna

Ok i guess you tried all 4 different ways to connect them in series , and you could not the the voltage higher , the freq change so its hard to say if you improve things , this is why i use the pot so i get the best freq for the jt coil configuration ( it just means jt coil count ) this is the reason i tried to tell everyone from the start , when you are making changes in the jt coils , if you have 2 coil at 15hz 80 volts , then connect them together and get a 30hz you will not have the 80 volts per coil you need to set it back with the pot at 15hz .

Also the coil may not be matched .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 08, 2009, 09:20:34 PM

Thanks Mark,
I will be away for the evening so I cannot continue this but I will in the morning.

I find it amazing that you double the frequency when you double the volts.

Have you seen this on a scope?
How are you measuring the frequency?

I think I know how you measure the volts.
I did it for a while too., but not frequency.

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 08, 2009, 09:37:40 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 08, 2009, 12:18:58 PM
Electricme

This is the tesla book http://www.scribd.com/doc/13040608/The-Researches-of-Nikola-Tesla-1894

Thanks Mark
I appreciate this

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on June 08, 2009, 10:23:02 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 08, 2009, 09:20:34 PM
I find it amazing that you double the frequency when you double the volts.

Have you seen this on a scope?
How are you measuring the frequency?

I think I know how you measure the volts.
I did it for a while too., but not frequency.

if he is like me, he assume that the frequency is changing.

but the proof, you are giving it to us.
you have prove this more then once already.
here a quote of your latess proof.

Quote80V @15.3KHz

74V @ 11KHz

12.25v @ 15.5KHz

read this carefully, as it tell why what you are seeing is happening.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg185106#msg185106

to elaborate a bit more.

impedence is just like resistance.
but it is not the resistance to dc as your dmm measure.
impedence is the resistance to current changes, AC or pulsed.

as you add turns you are changing the impedence.
if the impedence goes higher, the current goes lower, just like with resistors.
lower current mean a smaller mag field, so a smaller collapse.

by changing the base's resistor, you are changing the frequency.
if the frequency change, so do the impedence.

the game is to match the frequency to the coil(s) you have.
while taking into account that the toroid is only working at it best in a certain range of frequencies,
and that a load(s) will change the impedence too.

if the impedence change, so do the frequency of a jt, because of the way the transistor's base is triggered.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 08, 2009, 11:31:39 PM

@Jeanna

The numbers used in my last post are for giving explanation , are not based on reality .

I still don't see any harm in trying it my way , i did have enough success with it , lets see how it works for you , plus with all you know by now this should be a plus , to me it works better then trying and parts i have around guessing what will be best.

Mark

@all

Hiding the load from the source , think about that !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 09, 2009, 02:04:14 AM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on June 08, 2009, 06:37:20 PM
ok MK1 if you want to pass the EB energy through a coil and collect the energy on the other coil then i can say i had no luck with it. but it could be my torroid

I didn't have any response either.

My guess, though is that it is probably too fast and small a wave to make an impression on the toroid.
My Stubblefield generators were all bifilar 60 turns per layer 6 layers. Half of those turns were each wire.
So bifilar 180 +180 = 360 turns over 6 layers.

It is a lot more turns than 4 and 20. I am sorry we didn't show a result, but not terribly surprised. For a couple of reasons.
1- My first try at a second tier was the obvious one.
I used the secondary to start up a whole new JTC.
It kinda worked, but it was very weak.
This is of course, because the secondary is producing AC.

So in a similar way the earth is producing a random non steady current. Not exactly AC, but certainly not DC.

I also think my generators were on the small side.
2- I think 200 turns per row and 6 rows is more what it should have been.

I think this is a good idea to pursue with our toroids, but maybe a ferrite bar or soft iron nail (no zinc either) through the middle going into the ground. This will connect right to the telluric currents. I don't object to using a battery with a set up like this either.
It would separate the telluric from the rest of it, if we compared the battery driven one with the one made on a center stake in the ground.

Overflowing ideas... ;)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 09, 2009, 02:21:53 AM

@Jeanna,
Thank you for the link again, I just have problems downloading from scribe, it takes forever just for the scribe display to appear, then unbearable time for each page.

I will need a high speed net to do this, my patience is not that lasting and I have a lot of things to do, but this weekend I will head in the scribes direction, if I can access that PC.

But thank you for the link again, and thank you to Gadget and MK1 who also posted a link. ;)

I eventually got the round EB in the ground, got lots of pics, but will post them in the "other" NS thread.

Quote from: jeanna on June 08, 2009, 03:10:12 PM
Hi Jim,
It is that long book from scribd. I sent the link to you.
I don't remember if you got it or didn't. It takes a while to read because it is all scanned. As I read a page I usually copy it and paste it into a text file that complements the book. Of course from there it is easy to find references... well, not easy but the pages turn faster.

I think you put it onto a thumb drive?
I found it. Here it is:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/13040608/The-Researches-of-Nikola-Tesla-1894 (http://www.scribd.com/doc/13040608/The-Researches-of-Nikola-Tesla-1894)

jeanna

To all those who have so very kindly sent in helpful suggestions I thank you all.
They are all very interresting, you know if someone jotted down all the "stuff" people have posted on just this thread, it would make a very interresting novel. ;D

jim

Ohh yes I almost forgot.
1st output of the EB is 0.771 volts, no load.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 09, 2009, 02:34:02 AM

@ MK1

Quote from: Mk1 on June 08, 2009, 02:47:17 AM
@electricme

Nice work !

Look good !

Not to brag but on my mk8 i got 16 secondary . ;D

Ok i brag a bit , but seriously keep the good work!

Mark

Braggins good for you ha ha.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 09, 2009, 02:45:45 AM

@ How 2 speel th word electrolite

Quote from: Mk1 on June 08, 2009, 02:00:38 PM
@gadget

You got me there , bros ::) :-[ :-X

tlas, aslt, last, alst, tasl, oh here it tis SALT ;D silly me

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 09, 2009, 02:58:55 AM

@Bill,
I found it in the icehouse web site

Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 08, 2009, 02:22:48 PM
@Jim:

Where is that design you are making from? I have not seen any of the Stubblefield patents that look anything like that one. Good luck with it. It has a lot of surface area and may I suggest that you make the hole large enough so you can mount it on its side (vertical) and change the direction it faces as you test the output. I see the drawing shows it mounted horizontal but I don't see why they do it that way. I can't wait to see what happens with it.

Bill

You are right about this, and so is Gadget, I found this in a stack of stuff in the below thread, about 3/4 down the side of the web page.

As it was under Stubblefield research, I assumed (falsely) it was something of his, but it seems to have had 3 people associated with it.

http://www.icehouse.net/john34/stubblefield.html

J.W. Walker. Bain and John Haworth

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 09, 2009, 04:11:39 AM

@Jeanna,

Quote from: jeanna on June 08, 2009, 03:43:27 PM
OK you guys,
It is my turn to complain.

thank you all,

jeanna

Chuckle ;D

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 09, 2009, 04:30:35 AM

Quote from: electricme on June 09, 2009, 04:11:39 AM
@Jeanna,

Chuckle ;D

jim

Yes, me too.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 09, 2009, 04:41:30 AM

@TheNOP,
This is very interresting.

Quote from: TheNOP on June 08, 2009, 10:23:02 PM
impedence is the resistance to current changes, AC or pulsed.

as you add turns you are changing the impedence.
if the impedence goes higher, the current goes lower, just like with resistors.
lower current mean a smaller mag field, so a smaller collapse.

the game is to match the frequency to the coil(s) you have.

and that a load(s) will change the impedence too.

If I understand this right, if I wind a single secondary coil on a JT, and the more turns I put on the coil, then the higher the voltage will rise, up to a point.

So if the JT battery had a higher current supplied to the Bifilar windings, then there would be even more HV output? Could I switch higher pulses by paralleling the JT transistor?

So, if I wind, say 32 secondaries using, say 12turns each, then each output will be 12v but at a higher milliamp?

I see this with my 4 secondary output toroid.

I wonder what will occur, if I drive 4 extra toroids off each of my outputs?
I will have to remove the bridge diodes though. hmmmm.
I will thionk about this a bit more.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 09, 2009, 04:54:29 AM

@Bill,
I see the thread is almost to break the 700 pages, it is still going strong.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 09, 2009, 06:41:02 AM

@All
Over the last two days, I have been making a new Earth Battery which its prime purpose is to power my Joule Thief, so as this is the case, and since this EB is not a Stubblefield one, I will present it here for all those who read this thread.

I thought this cell EB was a something extra that Stubblefield had made, it wasn't, it was a design by J. W. Wilkins - Bain - and John Haworth.

These are my efforts to make this cell.

0784 = The hole, well it goes in the ground
0873 = Copper sheet with a 10 1/2" diameter dinner plate as the former
0877 = Starting the cut in the copper plate
0880 = Drawing the "disk" onto the thin steel sheet
0882 = Beginning the "cut" in the steel sheet
0884 = Last of the cutting, I didnt knock any bark off
0885 = Both disks, what they look like flat on the ground
0886 = How the composite battery should look like, just the two disks
hmmm this is the profile

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 09, 2009, 06:57:27 AM

@All,
The steps of making of the Composite Earth Battery continues

0889 = Drilling the Positive disk electrode holes to take the nylon bolts
Use a small drill first, copper snags drills and could teare.
0890 = Drilling the Negative Steel Electrode holes.
0891 = Making sure the nylon bolts fit the hole drilled for them
0899 = Copper electrode needs a copper lead connector.
A 1/2" flattened copper pipe does this very well
I didn't want to add solder to the mix.
0900 = Electrode disks completed, all holes drilled, connections atatched.
0901 = EB cell is now assembled, leads now atatched to both electrodes
0903 = EB cell is seen edge on
0909 = The lead out leads (wires) will go underground to the fence.
In the summer, the lawn can be mowed right over the battery.
0912 = EB composite cell is now in the ground, last check over.
0913 = All done.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on June 09, 2009, 07:33:19 AM

@electricme

That earth battery looks good!
Lets see what happen.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 09, 2009, 07:34:38 AM

@All,
Here is a few extra bits I decided to add, they go into making the Composite Earth Battery

Looking at the diagram, I saw that there was a copper lead out wire and a steel lead out wire, so I hunted around my wire pile and found just wat I needed to do the job.
A plastic insulated steel wire.

0902 = I test for steel content using my very powerful Neo magnets, yes its steel.
0905 = Connecting the copper wire to the copper disk
0911 = Filled to the brim with earth, I had some special rocks to crush and place
here instead, I forgot where I put them, spent at least an hour looking, never
mind, good old fashioned earth will have to do.
0910 = I needed some wires to feed the Composite Earth Battery into the house, I
pressed an old extension lead into service, OFF came its socket quick smart,
snip. ;D

I now have a total of four earth batteries spread all over the place, they all have individual lead-in wires through my kitchen window, it's very cold out side right now, and I'm blowed if I'm going to freeze my fingers and toes off to take measurements.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 09, 2009, 07:49:00 AM

Hello Jesus,
It's early days yet, havent got a clue what will happen, mabe it will get wet and dissolve ha ha.

Quote from: nievesoliveras on June 09, 2009, 07:33:19 AM
@electricme

That earth battery looks good!
Lets see what happen.

Jesus

So far the output with no load is .771 volt, its not much.
I'ts wait and see time.

jim

@ Gadgetmal,
We are all concerned for you.
Are you ok?

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on June 09, 2009, 08:05:37 AM

Quote from: electricme on June 09, 2009, 07:49:00 AM
Hello Jesus,
It's early days yet, havent got a clue what will happen, mabe it will get wet and dissolve ha ha.
So far the output with no load is .771 volt, its not much.
I'ts wait and see time.

jim

@ Gadgetmal,
We are all concerned for you.
Are you ok?

jim

Thank you @electricme !
I hope for the best results.

@gadgetmal
I wish you get well if you are ill !!!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 09, 2009, 09:28:35 AM

@jeanna

I am pretty much worthless. Worked so hard yesterday and the kids wanted to spend time with me last night so needless to say I never even picked up a meter.

Work is really busy and I will try to get those numbers tonight. How many turns do you have on your pickup coil? And what type of wire?

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 09, 2009, 09:56:41 AM

@gadget if your ill

well my friend you need to advance your reserch to solve this problem ...

for those that have not noticed i have droped much of my electric work lol anyone know why ... ;)

you all have an ora ... lol

tesla designed the sheild .. wich goes right along with many things ...

shock ya rocks... ;)

tune in tune up amp your ora ... beat illness... :)

btw gadget im sure you have all you need lol

im selling rock sets to ballance oras 8)

all must digg back to move forward ...

you will get it all in time ...

ist!

when the sheild is worn it is a guideing concuessness light beam you are in ....beam me up scotty!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 09, 2009, 11:07:31 AM

Quote from: altrez on June 09, 2009, 09:28:35 AM
@jeanna

I am pretty much worthless. Worked so hard yesterday and the kids wanted to spend time with me last night ...
... How many turns do you have on your pickup coil? And what type of wire?

-Altrez

Ah Please spend time with your kids. That is a verrrry important and wonderful occupation. And, very soon they will be in their thirties. ;)

I have 240 turns and they are in the MK1 fashion.
The wire is from newbie wire and is 24gauge magwire.
See pic below. (Both primaries are there. I use the one up top.)

My notes declare that when half done, I had 275V @7.2KHz
At this time I was using a 79ohm resistor. BTW, yesterday I was using 2k2ohm.

I am under the illusion (delusion) that while I may change the ultimate output of the voltage with a smaller value the kind of change in voltage I am talking about is independent of the resistor value.

So, with that 79 ohm resistor I got
275v @ 7.2KHz --on the first half before I finished turning it. I had
131volts @ ~17KHz -- when the turns were finished.

Later I messed around with various base resistor caps and different resistor values.

These figures were with a less vigorous primary. At the time I had this
3T,4T,240T

Later I added turns to the primary to 3T,20T,240T
got zero oscillation
Then backed off and used
3T,10T,240T
using a 150ohm resistor and got
246v 4.76KHz

This is still less than the original amount for half the secondary which was 275v for just the half. (I think it was less, I see I had a higher value resistor then.) In any case it is a not twice which is what I would think I should have.

The shape is improved and it is really improved with a cap added, but the voltage also goes way down.
(xee addressed this yesterday.)

So, maybe this helps.

I will be pleased when you can get this information to me, but do the important things first!.

thank you,

jeanna
edit
BTW, this lights a neon. But I find it disturbing that I have no additional voltage indeed I have less, so why bother? Or how can these be added for more voltage?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 09, 2009, 11:16:31 AM

Quote from: jeanna on June 09, 2009, 11:07:31 AM
Ah Please spend time with your kids. That is a verrrry important and wonderful occupation. And, very soon they will be in their thirties. ;)

I have 240 turns and they are in the MK1 fashion.
The wire is from newbie wire and is 24gauge magwire.
I will post a pic in an edit.

My notes declare that when half done, I had 275V @7.2KHz
At this time I was using a 79ohm resistor. BTW, yesterday I was using 2k2ohm.

I am under the illusion (delusion) that while I may change the ultimate output of the voltage with a smaller value the kind of change in voltage I am talking about is independent of the resistor value.

So, with that 79 ohm resistor I got
275v @ 7.2KHz --on the first half before I finished turning it. I had
131volts @ ~17KHz -- when the turns were finished.

Later I messed around with various base resistor caps and different resistor values.

These figures were with a less vigorous primary. At the time I had this
3T,4T,240T

Later I added turns to the primary to 3T,20T,240T
got zero oscillation
Then backed off and used
3T,10T,240T
using a 150ohm resistor and got
246v 4.76KHz

This is still less than the original amount for half the secondary which was 275v for just the half. (I think it was less, I see I had a higher value resistor then.) In any case it is a not twice which is what I would think I should have.

The shape is improved and it is really improved with a cap added, but the voltage also goes way down.
(xee addressed this yesterday.)

So, maybe this helps.

I will be pleased when you can get this information to me, but do the important things first!.

thank you,

jeanna

Can you explain to me how to measure half of the leg? So I can replicate you setup? Can you please also explain what you have our scope set to? Div Probe etc.. etc..

I am using cat5 eth cable for the primary. Its the only thing that I have got to work correctly with the high flux toroids from CWS

Thank you!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 09, 2009, 11:40:46 AM

Quote from: altrez on June 09, 2009, 11:16:31 AM
Can you explain to me how to measure half of the leg? So I can replicate you setup? Can you please also explain what you have our scope set to? Div Probe etc.. etc..

I am using cat5 eth cable for the primary. Its the only thing that I have got to work correctly with the high flux toroids from CWS

Thank you!

-Altrez

The primary is made of cat 6 tele wire. I think I had 6 colors. I don't remember now. 5 or 6.

Maybe the pic will help with the half part.
The MK1 is made in 4 directions straddling the primary. so it goes up then back down (this is the first half) then it jumps over the primary wires, then it goes up then returns down again. These last 2 directions comprise the second half.
Each of these halves gives more voltage than both halves when connected.

About the scope,
I put it on T/DIV and push the down cursor until the volts/division go as high as they can. Sometimes this makes the wave very hard to see; but it gives a truer version of the voltage.

I return to a good distance by clicking the up cursor.

The left cursor takes me stepwise to a lower frequency per space between the markers. Without bothering to change the markers for the moment, I click to the left until the whole wave is in view (LOL) This gives a chance at viewing the big picture.

Then I click the right cursor. It takes a moment for the wave to be discerned and so it may take a little time to see the progression to a higher frequency.

When I can see 3 waves in the screen and the next screen is only one, I go the the last screen with 3 and place the markers on the wave . Now, the frequency reads the actual frequency of that one wave.

jeanna

@all,
I have made a couple of bookmarks on my browser. one is to the main "Joule Thief "page with 3 sub headings.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?board=118.0 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?board=118.0)

The other is to the "Other New Battery Systems" page.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?board=13.0 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?board=13.0)

I find it is faster to have the link that goes directly to that header page than to navigate to it from here.

From there it is easy to check to see if someone has recently posted to one or the other eb threads.
And remember, the one started by localjoe is historically the first one. Its whole first half is about help and troubles and patents etc dealing with ebs as probes in the ground.

nuf said

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 09, 2009, 12:49:44 PM

@Jeanna

So i guess you are not going to try like i told you.

In that case i am wasting my time here.

If you connect 2 coils in series you are sending energy back in the second toroid , more juice in the toroid , changes the base coil reaction and changes the freq.

@all

700 pages , nice !

Gadget doesn't seem so sick , he took time make fun of me . Take care anyway.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 09, 2009, 12:55:54 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 09, 2009, 12:49:44 PM
@Jeanna

So i guess you are not going to try like i told you.

I just got up, for crying out loud.
I just looked and replied to Altrez.
I have not even begun the day.
Breakfast dishes are still on my lap.

And, exactly what was it you told me?

I need to review the last day's posts to find out. I am sure it will come back to me.

You are not wasting your time if someone who is not posting sees and makes some headway by a constructive comment you make.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 09, 2009, 01:07:16 PM

@Jeanna

Come on Jeanna , Use a pot then worry about the consumption , you need to know what your toroid can give with each different modification you make
that way , you are not going to see the power range on the big one ,based on what i have seen it like working slow .

Mark

Sorry , i guess i get excited since i still have so much to show , and less time to get my point across. Don't take it so personally.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 09, 2009, 01:35:24 PM

@Bill,
You will like this one.
@All,
The primary on this Joule thief is 360 turns. WireA is copper, wire B is iron. I have connected the end of one to the beginning of the other and twisted them and put the twisted pair into the pos rail.
The battery is 1.2v
The secondary (unknown number scramblewound) reads
3.63volts at 41.6 KHz ... Interesting frequency ...I wonder if you could crack water with this and burn a brighter light and maybe heat your house? ;) ;) ).

Notice the BJTLed is on and there is no need for a cap at the base resistor.
Without the BJTL the voltage is
10.73v and the frequency is
57.1KHz

ooo, I like this!

1k ohm resistor
2N3904

Notice the upward and downward peaks. Some have 3 to 4 waves bunched together before going on to a smoother continuation. I didn't get any closer than this. they go off the screen.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 09, 2009, 01:53:43 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 09, 2009, 01:07:16 PM
@Jeanna
Come on Jeanna , Use a pot then worry about the consumption ,...

I asked you a question yesterday about power output not consumption.

I lost over half the expected power by connecting these in series.
In one way to connect them I lost 88% of the expected power.
I am wanting to know why this is.

I know how to tune it with a pot, I want to know about the power output changing so dramatically. It does this all the time.

I suspect there is on enormous spike that your cap is picking up that is so skinny my scope won't.
But, I cannot say this. I cannot replicate your power output on both sides.
I can on one side but not when I put them together.

This was and still is my question.

I think 275V is pretty strong for one half of the secondary winding.
I have 2 halves like that if I use a certain resistor, so I am not concerned about getting the biggest output. I am concerned about what happens when they are added together?

I think theNOP has been hinting at this when he explains the inductor as resistor, but again, I am not quite sure how it applies here. One half meets the other and sees another different inductor and that is like a resistor. It does that because it is built on a toroid and the mag field is going in the opposite direction for the moment the additional pickup is added.

But then Hazens or slayer's with the pickup wound all the way and back again cuts the output down too.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 09, 2009, 02:07:14 PM

@jeanna

My point is to get a higher voltage you may need to make some improvement on your design, using a pot will help determine if you are really going the right way quickly. Every time you change the coil ratio you retune the pot , monitoring the voltage out with the meter and bridge and the scope , then you will have total control over the variables, any and every changes you make to the toroid primary or secondary can change the freq ,
of the jt , changing the freq changes also the power out.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on June 09, 2009, 07:25:07 PM

Quote from: electricme on June 09, 2009, 04:41:30 AM
If I understand this right, if I wind a single secondary coil on a JT, and the more turns I put on the coil, then the higher the voltage will rise, up to a point.

yes.

there is a case that will not have the same effect.
if the primaries are inbetween the pickups coils and they are not a mirror of each other.
in that case, there are 2 different current flow, one fighting the other.
same goes for the pickups if not connected correctly.
but those are not a problem with a single pickup coil.

Quote from: electricme on June 09, 2009, 04:41:30 AM
So if the JT battery had a higher current supplied to the Bifilar windings, then there would be even more HV output? Could I switch higher pulses by paralleling the JT transistor?

the current supply is not a problem, the voltage of the supply and/or the circuit's resistance are.

i mean, what prevent current to pass through a circuit ?
it is resistance.

there are 2 ways to work around that, either make the source voltage higher and/or lower the resistance of the circuit.

Quote from: electricme on June 09, 2009, 04:41:30 AM
So, if I wind, say 32 secondaries using, say 12turns each, then each output will be 12v but at a higher milliamp?

see above comment.

the coils are in series on a toroid.
but putting them all on the same load is as if you were putting them in parallel to the load.

if the load is, let say 32 Ohms, and all coils are connected to it in parallel.
what will be the total impedence of all coils is the question you must ask yourself.
same question, if you connect them in series.
that total impedence is what limit the amount of the current passing through your circuit.

ex:
if you put leds in series you are increasing the resistance of the load.
by putting the leds in parallel you are lowering the resistance of the load.
the total impedence is really load sensitive.
the way you connect your coils and the load(s) only depend on what you want to achive.
amps = volts / ohms

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_load

this is far from being the whole thing about impedance.
unless you are very familiar with every aspect of Ohm's law, understanding impedance can prove to be chalenging, as it include a time constant.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_impedance

Quote from: electricme on June 09, 2009, 04:41:30 AM
I wonder what will occur, if I drive 4 extra toroids off each of my outputs?

you mean 4 toroids with only one coil of each connect in parallel to the jt's collector coils + theirs pickup(s) ?

i think you should get more current from the battery that way.
but i am not sure for one reason.
since they will be sharing their fields colapses, the impedance of each toroid, if different, might cause unexpected results.

also, due to induction, those toroid should not be near each other.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 09, 2009, 08:38:29 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 09, 2009, 01:53:43 PM

I think 275V is pretty strong for one half of the secondary winding.
I have 2 halves like that if I use a certain resistor, so I am not concerned about getting the biggest output. I am concerned about what happens when they are added together?

Jeanna

This is why I put my feedback in paralleled rather than trying to make them add in series .

If you look at your scope and think about time ............I think you will have your answer .
They do not add up right because they are out of phase with each other .
Part of them adds .....part of them subtracts from each other .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 09, 2009, 08:49:50 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 09, 2009, 08:38:29 PM

Jeanna

This is why I put my feedback in paralleled rather than trying to make them add in series .

....part of them subtracts from each other .
gary

Thank you Gary, I was afraid that was the answer.

I think there is more to the parallel thing. I may start the ac joule thief thread soon. I want to explore all this jt and secondary/pickups in parallel circuits and maybe more, and see where it can go.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 09, 2009, 09:11:10 PM

@TheNOP,

Thank you for this answers to my question.
They are the reasons why I wound my last parallel secondary.

Now there is only one more question from me, but first I want to say how I think how the magnetic field in the toroid goes like.

If we put a tiny current pulse into the toroid, via the JT circuit, then we will only get a small magnetic field to work with.

If the same toroid was hit with a more intense jolt of current, I would expect a more intense magnetic would circulate inside the toroid.

I am asking this, as I see many of the toroid's which I get from printed circuit boards are already wound with very much heaver wire, input and output.

This tells me that the toroid is capable of working with a very more intense magnetic field, and or is capable of soaking up a more dense magnetic field.

So I think if the toroid is pulsed with a higher amperage, it should put out a higher output from the more dense magnetic field/s in the toroid.

I am wondering if I should put another NiCad in series (1.2v+1.2v =2.4v) to achieve this, but keep the JT running from the 1st 1.2v battery.

jim

@all,

I know if I connect in series, any 1.2v or 1.5v, or 12v batteries, I can raise the voltage of the battery set.

Has anyone got any knowledge on how to do the same using a EB?
To my way of thinking it should be [possible, but has anyone ever done/achieved this?

jim

Lastly
My new round EB is as follows.
9/6/2009 at 5.00pm = .771v
9/6/2009 at 9.00pm = .760v
10/6/2009 at Midnight = .780v
10/6/2009 at 6.30am = .800v
10/6/2009 at 8.00am = .802v
10/6/2009 at 9.00am = .803v
10/6/2009 at 10.00am = .804v
10/6/2009 at 11.00am = .805v

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 09, 2009, 09:24:07 PM

@jeanna

Sorry if Gary answer is enough for you , but i assumed you did connect them in phase , when you connected them in series, and like i said there are 4 ways to connect 2 coils in series , 2 of them will lower the voltage since they are not in phase , but even more so in the mk style pickup coil since the each have 2 phase , so testing all 4 different way , and did not get one of those to get a higher voltage then one coil . Sorry , there is more to it , Gary by design , the design of the coil make if real hard to connect the coil in phase. This is not the same here.

Mark

Btw , the magic about the way a wind my pickup coil permits it to light led in both direction , but the phase are not the same , if you did not have up down pickup coil .

But honestly tell me have you ever tried tuning the way i described it page 478, if not cool by me be tell me why ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 09, 2009, 09:31:29 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 09, 2009, 08:49:50 PM

I think there is more to the parallel thing. I may start the ac joule thief thread soon. I want to explore all this jt and secondary/pickups in parallel circuits and maybe more, and see where it can go.

Jeanna

I am sure you can find ways to make them add up right .

The question I would have to ask is if you get them to add up right .......when the frequency changes do they still add up right ?

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 09, 2009, 09:33:44 PM

Quote from: electricme on June 09, 2009, 09:11:10 PM

I know if I connect in series, any 1.2v or 1.5v, or 12v batteries, I can raise the voltage of the battery set.

Has anyone got any knowledge on how to do the same using a EB?
To my way of thinking it should be [possible, but has anyone ever done/achieved this?

jim

If the earth is a non directional current, and it is, then you will not be able to use the eb as you would a direct current battery.

How would you add up a bunch of alternating current sources to achieve more power. That is the key to your answer.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 09, 2009, 09:56:16 PM

@all

And Jeanna

This is what a was talking about in design consideration .
Concerning attraction and repulsion mode .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 09, 2009, 09:56:34 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 09, 2009, 09:31:29 PM
Jeanna

I am sure you can find ways to make them add up right .

The question I would have to ask is if you get them to add up right .......when the frequency changes do they still add up right ?

gary

good question.
-----
First to get this out of the way, I will describe what I connected to what.
Let us say there are 4 wire ends to this 2 sided pickup.
A,B are on one side and C and D are on the other.
I can connect and measure with the scope across
AC,
AD,
BC,
BD

2 of these reduced the voltage by over half and the other 2 by 88 percent. These are big losses.

So, with that out of the way, here is the resolution.

This biggo toroid which comes from allelectronics and is inexpensive, as things go, needs to have the base coil have 13 or 14 turns while the collector coil cannot really do with more than 4. I will need to make a new primary to add more to the collector coil, to be absolutely sure, but it is interesting for another reason.

It shuts OFF when the base resistance is less than a certain amount like 50 ohm or 79ohm. This figure changed with the number of turns and is not an absolute.

But these 2 items are completely opposite what other toroids have done.

This may give me the clue I need to get the cws high flux toroids to oscillate.

It is funny how things happen in batches (quantum effect to be sure ;) )
today, I ran a non galvanic stubblefield generator I made last year, as the core and coils of a joule thief. (see the pics posted above) to test it with a scope and the jt circuit and it ALSO, had a bottom amount below which it stopped oscillating.

I just happened to have a 2k2ohm resistor in the base resistor spot. The light went right on. cool.... Now, The lowest resistor that could work with it today was (I think) around 50 ohms. This would change with a different transistor etc.

...But the point here is that this is very different from most of the toroids I, at least, have worked with.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 09, 2009, 10:04:43 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 09, 2009, 09:24:07 PM
@jeanna
...

But honestly tell me have you ever tried tuning the way i described it page 478, if not cool by me be tell me why ?

I have done this over and over.

In fact I was doing just that when I first noticed the voltage goes one way the frequency usually goes the other.
When the frequency does not, the wave is so unusual, I believe that the reason it appears that way is that the scope cannot deal with it right there.

I have done it many times and you seem to always think I do not.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 09, 2009, 10:09:43 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 09, 2009, 10:04:43 PM
I have done this over and over.

Many times and you seem to always think I do not.

jeanna

I am sorry then !

But you did not get better results ? even with more turns and checking the pot? Then this is a strange toroid , its look like it like it slow . Low hz.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 09, 2009, 10:10:09 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 09, 2009, 09:24:07 PM

But honestly tell me have you ever tried tuning the way i described it page 478, if not cool by me be tell me why ?

Mike

I do not do it exactly the way you describe ......... But I do use a pot rather than a resistor .........I try the full range of the pot each time I make a change to my circuit ............ANY change .

I also try a few different caps .

I have one meter that I always keep hooked up to show the battery current .......... If I am doing feedback I keep another meter reading battery voltage
A 3rd meter is used for output voltage or whatever I need at the time

In my opinion trying to tune a JT without a pot and a meter or 2 would be kind of like trying to put a jigsaw puzzle together blindfolded

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 09, 2009, 10:14:11 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 09, 2009, 10:10:09 PM
Mike

I do not do it exactly the way you describe ......... But I do use a pot rather than a resistor .........I try the full range of the pot each time I make a change to my circuit ............ANY change .

I also try a few different caps .

I have one meter that I always keep hooked up to show the battery current .......... If I am doing feedback I keep another meter reading battery voltage
A 3rd meter is used for output voltage or whatever I need at the time

In my opinion trying to tune a JT without a pot and a meter or 2 would be kind of like trying to put a jigsaw puzzle together blindfolded

gary

I could not have said it better Jerry !

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 09, 2009, 10:26:37 PM

@ Friends . Off Topic as i Mostly will always be. I am OK today . I had another attack yesterday and was in so much pain i couldn't stand any more stress so i took a day and half away from the computer . School is out tomorrow for My Little girl (7)and there was awards and ceremonies and water day and this and that and this Ole guy has a bit more than most of you to chew on so excuse Me .She did get a Peer award for Outstanding Character and accelerated reading presidential award so that shows i am a good parent and father even at 52 .You Damn Right I'm Proud of her .I do not like being told what to do cause I had 32 years with a red head who was a dead head and had enough of that crud to last a life time .I'm on a hair Trigger from a Stress related Stroke . Don't mess with me or my Head as it could get nasty . I am Not Normally like this . I am Quiet ,kind ,cheerful ,funny and focused . Not lately.
@Jeanna . The Reason your secondaries are not adding up is like Mk1 said they are out of phase and cancelling each other out . you have to go to the primary and try all 4 ways of of hooking that up and trying your secondaries in series and that's another 2 ways of doing that . one of them will hit it so it adds up . SO you have a total of six ways to hook that jt up so its phased properly .
Albert
AKA the Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 09, 2009, 10:34:02 PM

@Altrez,

Quote from: altrez on June 09, 2009, 11:16:31 AM
Can you explain to me how to measure half of the leg?
Thank you!

-Altrez

Just take the tape measure and go from ankle to knee, (half a leg) ;D

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 09, 2009, 10:45:37 PM

Quote from: electricme on June 09, 2009, 10:34:02 PM
@Altrez,
Just take the tape measure and go from ankle to knee, (half a leg) ;D

jim

Jim .My Messaging is messed up here and it wont let me send but thank you for your kind and gentle words and Spirit . You are a True friend Indeed . I also Enjoy your Work and Especially all th eneat Junk you find . Sounds like me :) Good day Mate . It night fall here and approaching 12 midnight . Must get some rest now . Happy Experimenting . !!
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 09, 2009, 10:51:51 PM

@ the Gadget

Albert, I am glad you are back on your feet mate, it's no fun being crook.
Your little girl is an excellent achiever, you can be very proud of her.

Nice you are back to posting again, we all missed you.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 09, 2009, 11:15:58 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 09, 2009, 10:09:43 PM
I am sorry then !

But you did not get better results ? even with more turns and checking the pot?

Mark

More turns happened to be on the other coil the base instead of the collector. and it caught me by surprise.

I am interested to see what xee thinks about this.

Well, to be honest I only use the pot when I have a good enough candidate or need to push it more.

I start with about 4 plain resistors to get me within range. It is much faster for me. I have a tedium problem and repeatedly pulling out the battery and then checking the ohm meter then putting back the battery then turning the pot etc, is too tedious for me to start with, so I plunk in a 33, then a 580, then a 1k then a 2k2. If it won't start I have a range of caps to add. This is quick and gives me an overview of the range of the toroid. Then I can get close with the pot.

It is a learning style. I need to see the overview first then I can dive in. Others must do every detail first and build an overview from it. Just a different style.

QuoteThen this is a strange toroid , its look like it like it slow . Low hz.

Well, it is very large. Stprue took a pic of this toroid next to his hand a couple of weeks ago.

Anyway the voltage came right up when I put the 14T on the base and the 3 or 4T on the collector. very backwards. I guess no rules apply, still.

@Gadget, I am glad you are feeling more calm. welcome back.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 09, 2009, 11:49:38 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 09, 2009, 11:15:58 PM

Well, to be honest I only use the pot when I have a good enough candidate or need to push it more.

I start with about 4 plain resistors to get me within range. It is much faster for me. I have a tedium problem and repeatedly pulling out the battery and then checking the ohm meter then putting back the battery then turning the pot etc, is too tedious for me to start with, so I plunk in a 33, then a 580, then a 1k then a 2k2. If it won't start I have a range of caps to add. This is quick and gives me an overview of the range of the toroid. Then I can get close with the pot.

It is a learning style. I need to see the overview first then I can dive in. Others must do every detail first and build an overview from it. Just a different style.

jeanna

Jeanna

That way of testing would not work for me , since the sweet spot is not that big , there is no way to tell what is the best .

I agree that checking for the pot resistance value takes longer , but not always needed , unless you find something worth mentioning , and if you like me use one plastic battery holder they are sometimes hard to get the battery in and out , and i agree its a waist of time , for that i usually use the alligator clip wire.

On what i have seen the sweet spot change depending on the jt turns , on that spot you get usually get up to 30 % more volts , at a very specific spot i would say there is less then 5 % margin , so getting i idea from 4 resistor , i do have problems with that , since there is no real way to know if you improve or not . Maybe the precision pot with 25 turn is overkill for now 1 turn should do.

I tough you had more concrete reason for not doing it like i do , other then to long , to that i can only say taking time is not bad if you get result .

Also i forgot to mention i also use 2 meter one with 2 wires on the probe so i can connect to the board easily check the pot value .

Mark

Now the big box question , is the sweet spot at the same freq with every different jt coil turns , or dose it change.

Why is that important , because if the freq stay the same the toroid is the dictating factor for power and the freq , if it changes then its the coil resonance that we are looking for , even better would be to have both at the same freq , in a ultimate jt design.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 10, 2009, 12:18:29 AM

@Mark,
There are lots of numbers with the more turns on the collector and when I changed to the more turns on the base, I just swept the pot dial till it looked better , then made another turn and did that again.

The overview answer to your question is well, it is close but not right on.
I was at 3T,12T,240T and

When I first turned it around to 12T,3T,240T
I swept the pot and stopped in 3 places.
2k930r 131.7v 14.2KHz
1k100r 170v 14.2KHz same resistance but not same voltage output.
320r 189v 13.3KHz

With
13T,3T, 240T
500r 183.7V 13.3KHz

added another turn
14T,3T,240T
500r 168v 13,3KHz the best score but less volts than the last one.

Added one more to the base but went back to better base turns of 13
13T,4T,240T
90r 186v 9.52KHz

Now, how to describe this??
If I pull way back on the scope so the wave is just a little bit of bumps, the scope will tell me a much higher value for the total voltage. (theNOP explained this to me a while ago. )
There are 3 configs that give me 192v when seen from way back.
12T,3T,240T
320r 189v 13.3KHz
13T,3T, 240T
500r 183.7V 13.3KHz
13T,4T,240T
90r 186v 9.52KHz

And another piece of information on thei.
I never found a sweet spot.
I did find a poison spot.
Same thing only different. ;)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 10, 2009, 12:27:44 AM

@jeanna

Cool , info the voltage reading sre the same on the scope and on the meter ?

Also i wonder about 4t 4t or 5 t 5t or 6t 6t on the jt side.

That way the have the same mass .

Mark

Edit is your jt is repulsing mode or attracting .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 10, 2009, 12:37:50 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 10, 2009, 12:27:44 AM
@jeanna

Cool , info the voltage reading sre the same on the scope and on the meter ?

Also i wonder about 4t 4t or 5 t 5t or 6t 6t on the jt side.

That way the have the same mass .

Mark

Meter? what meter?
---
Don't you mean
12T,12T
13T,13T
14T,14T

3T3T etc won't even turn on. They need 12T on the base.
I had to go to 90r to get that good reading the rest was way down, so I think adding one more will be worse. I probably will do that tomorrow, just to finish this level of the tests.

As I added one more to 4T on that last reading I had to squeeze the last bit of wire to do it.

If you look back to the pic I posted this morning, you can see an old few-turns primary on the bottom. I started there and the thing would not oscillate without a cap.

I do see the reason to make 12T,12T, but just to see. I think it will kill it.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 10, 2009, 12:43:56 AM

@ jeanna

The freq on the scope and the voltage on the bridge with a multimeter set to volts.

It dosen' t turn on with 12t 12t , humm , you may be in repulsion mode .

That would also explain the problem with the connection in series , since both ends of the coil have the same polarity.

I have better result with 2n2222 , but there not all the same some are just bad.

the resistor value may not be the usual it may be higher then expected.
Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 10, 2009, 01:05:11 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 10, 2009, 12:43:56 AM
@ jeanna

The freq on the scope and the voltage on the bridge with a multimeter set to volts.

Sorry, You can do that. You won't get me to do that again, for sure! :D

QuoteIt doesn' t turn on with 12t 12t , humm , you may be in repulsion mode .

NO I said it doesn't turn on with low numbers the way most toroids have in my past. I used 2 and3 with 5 and it did not turn on.

I have not tried 12T,12T, I will need to see if that is a good one or not.

QuoteI have better result with 2n2222

They work fine too, but they always take more amps from the battery to produce the same amount of volts from the secondary given a particular toroid and circuit.

Quotethe resistor value may not be the usual it may be higher then expected.

I have had a rash of these lately, and I am glad to know this can happen this way.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 10, 2009, 01:12:44 AM

@jeanna

Is your jt in attracting mode or repulsing ?

And

Sorry, You can do that. You won't get me to do that again, for sure!

I an not sure what it means ?

If it means its to hard , you just need to connect it one time ?

And i am curious to know the difference in result , if the give different results , then ??

I know you did good so far but you are still new at the scope thing , also not everyone got those ...

So i still don't get it.

Mark

In my experience , taking a 2n3479 and a 2n2222 , and tuning the pot i get better with the 2n2222 same jt setup. even better with 2n3055

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 10, 2009, 01:23:11 AM

its the off times ... lol

of the sw... lol

hence why 30vdc is needed for fets .... ;)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 10, 2009, 01:56:07 AM

I am posting this here because it is a good site for folks to have. I use it all the time. This is a calculator to determine the magnetic deviation and also the magnetic dip angle for your area:

http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/geomagmodels/IGRFWMM.jsp

This works all over the world and even if you are not ever going to make an earth battery, it is a good site.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on June 10, 2009, 06:45:42 AM

Quote from: electricme on June 09, 2009, 09:11:10 PM
If we put a tiny current pulse into the toroid, via the JT circuit, then we will only get a small magnetic field to work with.

If the same toroid was hit with a more intense jolt of current, I would expect a more intense magnetic would circulate inside the toroid.

yes

the way the jt make it oscilations is primarly what prevent a higher current to flow through.
the impedance come second, but it is what make the biggest difference since the oscilation method does not change from one test to an other.

i am waiting for my timer chips to arrive.
i will try to make it work with same 1.2 volts battery to make the oscilation.
i might not be able to do that at 1.2 volts tho, but at 3 volts, it should work.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 10, 2009, 07:52:46 AM

Quote from: electricme on June 09, 2009, 10:34:02 PM
@Altrez,
Just take the tape measure and go from ankle to knee, (half a leg) ;D

jim

hahahah that was great! :):)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 10, 2009, 08:00:32 AM

@jeanna

I am really trying to get this stuff for you :) Kids had softball last night we won!

I am late for work now but here is the inductance measurements.

From this morning.

1. Bifiler Coil Primairy winding I moved it back to an 8/8 with cat 5 eth coil.
Results = 0.001mH

2. Primary pickup coil is 24 gage mag wire from radioshack the gold wire. 137 turns

Results = 45.342 mH

3. Charge coil #1

Results = 1.652 mH

4. Charge coil #2

Results = 1.879 mH

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 10, 2009, 10:07:17 AM

@Altrez

Quote from: altrez on June 10, 2009, 07:52:46 AM
hahahah that was great! :):)

It was a good 1 liner wasn't it,,, ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 10, 2009, 10:49:15 AM

This is kind of off topic ........but I know that there are a few LED heads out there

I saw a different LED light at walmart
It is a GE 10 watt
I didn't get it because it was $40
It looks like it could be 4 2.5 watt luxon stars

I was looking for more information on that light I found this page
http://redbirdled.reachlocal.net/category_s/38.htm
It looks to me like lighting with LEDs is starting to come of age .

On the second page I found this
300W LED Street light
Our Price: $2,219.00
300 1 watt cree LEDs

it almost makes me want to build a very big JT

:)

gary

Edit

Here is a link for the Bulb that caught my attention

http://www.gelighting.com/na/business_lighting/products/led/general_lighting.htm

It is the Par 30

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 10, 2009, 11:46:46 AM

My Latest Creation . 48 1 watt leds , well 47 and 1/2 . It was so bright it blew one so i had to crank it back a bit .
1 aa battery at 10 ma compared to 3 aa wide open amps . a 200% improvement or more if i do say so . I love light s . I must have Mexican in me ;) Standard jt with one of my special Germanium's and a small toroid from a PS. This sucker is as bright as a 60 watt light bulb . It was a good find at the flea market this morning for 3 bucks!!! I turned a 3 dollar light into an Expensive energy device . Im running it and see how long she goes ! I'm also using Bedini recharged non-rechargables . I have recharged this one all year long . I got 4 of them and i use them in the camera i take pictures here with .

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 10, 2009, 12:13:39 PM

@ gadgetmall

Quote from: gadgetmall on June 10, 2009, 11:46:46 AM
1 aa battery at 10 ma

Wow! I am impressed. That looks like a lot of light for 10 ma. Great work.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 10, 2009, 01:08:45 PM

@all ******this is important ******

Ok i will tell you about what a motor told me, a motor has 2 coil like the jt

I was using it like a generator to light led , so i connected the led directly on the motor lead , started rotating the motor shaft by hand , the led got bright right away , but i also notice the the shaft was not rotating easily now , not easy like when nothing is connected to it, then i use a coil on the negative led leg , the led got just as bright but the tension in the shaft was gone. I don't know what the coil did, how it could do so , maybe delaying the feedback , or changing its pole , choke effect ?

Ok now why did i tell you about this , well because if you load one of the pick coil with a big cap the the other pickup coil will show charge cap voltage, like in the motor experiment the jt get loaded back .

So now i suggest making a system that load back the toroid ,

first it will keep high voltage under load

second since the toroid dosen't get loaded back , the voltage voltage induced by the base coil will not change making it a better unit stabler one .

Now how to replicate the motor exeriment with a toroid .

Adding a coil , humm

Never loadding on one coil , both end of the load on diffrent coil never loading it back , humm

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 10, 2009, 01:23:54 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 10, 2009, 01:12:44 AM
@jeanna

Is your jt in attracting mode or repulsing ?

I am afraid I do not know how to answer your question.
If you take the red one and slide it up so in your pic it is to the left of the blue one and connect the 2 positive adjacent wires, you will have a fair picture of the primary.
The pickup is just a MK1 style but notice:
The MK1 windings are ending and beginning on the side opposite the primary ends. I have another one like this and it works well, so I knew it would be fine.

What I think is that the way you designed the pickup, it ADDS to the oscillation of the primary. I suppose this could cause the cancellation, but I don't think I have had that happen yet... or maybe I have.

I believe the solution to yesterday's question has to do with the ratio of turns in the base and collector coils.

You have offered an explanation about pushing and pulling magnetic fields. I don't really follow how your pictures tell that story. If you could explain your concept again, maybe I could understand.

QuoteSorry, You can do that. You won't get me to do that again, for sure!

I an not sure what it means ?

;D ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D
You can rely on my scope measurements now. I have it down.
I have a lot of problems taking pictures because of the glare. Sometimes I get a good picture before I move the frequency markers, but when I report the frequency it is accurate.
There are also times when the wave is too abnormal for the scope, and I will usually report or skip that one.
I had one yesterday. and mentioned it was a very unusual wave.

To be sure I won't blow my scope, sometimes I connect the ac volts on my meter. The difference is somewhere around 1/10 of what the scope will show. I can know I will be getting a big voltage if the ac volts says 10.3 volts. I am really careful when the ac volts on the dmm says 38volts.

Quote... also not everyone got those ...

So i still don't get it.

In my experience , taking a 2n3479 and a 2n2222 , and tuning the pot i get better with the 2n2222 same jt setup. even better with 2n3055

Actually Mark,
What would be really helpful to many more than just me is if you would share those results more like the way I share my results.

Like what do you mean by better? what is better? does that mean the voltage is higher? Since you don't have a scope you don't actually know what the frequency is... how do you know it doesn't kill the frequency. Are there results you could tell us?
I think so.
You do not have to, but it would help a lot of people.

To be clear, I mean sharing your process will help more people be able to make a copy, than if you just say "I got better results with this."

thank you,

jeanna

edit:
I see you did a bit with the motor thing. good start.!! thank you.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 10, 2009, 01:30:53 PM

@ Mk1

Quote from: Mk1 on June 10, 2009, 01:08:45 PM
Now how to replicate the motor exeriment with a toroid .

Adding a coil , humm

My tests have shown that for best JT efficiency pickup coil load should look like large capacitor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 10, 2009, 02:11:45 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 10, 2009, 01:23:54 PM
I am afraid I do not know how to answer your question.
If you take the red one and slide it up so in your pic it is to the left of the blue one and connect the 2 positive adjacent wires, you will have a fair picture of the primary.

Maybe this picture will help now.

Quote from: jeanna on June 10, 2009, 01:23:54 PM

What I think is that the way you designed the pickup, it ADDS to the oscillation of the primary. I suppose this could cause the cancellation, but I don't think I have had that happen yet... or maybe I have.

Yes i agree totally , when i connect them in series only one of the 4 ways get the voltage higher , honestly they are not really design for connecting them in series since the both pole are included , a one way pick up coil with a attracting mode jt one end of the pickup coil is negative and the other positive making is easier to match.

Quote from: jeanna on June 10, 2009, 01:23:54 PM

Actually Mark,
What would be really helpful to many more than just me is if you would share those results more like the way I share my results.

i Agree ! I don't have one i wish i did ! but i still have some good tools , my brain and heart got me at the right place at the right time .
It works for me , but a scope would help.

Quote from: jeanna on June 10, 2009, 01:23:54 PM

Like what do you mean by better? what is better? does that mean the voltage is higher?

Well i got a multimeter , and yes i get higher voltage like i commented like 500 pages ago. Plus in the 2n2222 data sheet it is clearly saying it is used for lighting fl tubes .

Quote from: jeanna on June 10, 2009, 01:23:54 PM

Since you don't have a scope you don't actually know what the frequency is... how do you know it doesn't kill the frequency. Are there results you could tell us?

Yes i do not have a scope , i have to use other things mainly my brain , even if my explanation of the problem could be explained other wise , the issue is there is a load problem , if there is a solution i don't care how its called or explained , but if anyone know the real terms for this then i will gladly listen .

Make a quick experiment but a bridge and cap on one pickup coil , then
the scope on the other coil , the scope will show you the cap voltage.

The idea would be to use one wire led lighting , but with 2 wire , like broken leads no loop on this stage.

I have had time to think about this for quite some time now , and most of the experiment i see these days look like what i have done i while back.

I also found this schematic , take a look at how they call the base coil , humm ... Its the regular base coil like the jt , this coil is really important the freq .

Now look at the arrows on the attracting mode then check the other one .

That means that the pickup coil can be feed the same pole on each side or the opposite one , if some one would like to rotate the field in the toroid , one mode is better then the other.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 10, 2009, 02:16:32 PM

Quote from: xee2 on June 10, 2009, 01:30:53 PM
@ Mk1

My tests have shown that for best JT efficiency pickup coil load should look like large capacitor.

I am not sure i get what you mean . Could you please tell us more .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 10, 2009, 03:01:05 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 10, 2009, 01:23:54 PM

Like what do you mean by better? what is better? does that mean the voltage is higher? Since you don't have a scope you don't actually know what the frequency is... how do you know it doesn't kill the frequency. Are there results you could tell us?

Jeanna

I think I can help out a little here .

He means it is better

B
E
T
T
E
R

Bet -Tur

:)

Seriously
I only used my3055 on a couple of coils before I fried it/
I did not write all the details down ..... but I remember I kept thinking WOW this is better
I am pretty sure the current draw was down
The JT light was brigher
My output voltage was up I think about 20 V on one coil . (maybe 10% better )

The 3055 is a higher power transistor.
My guess about what is going on is kind of like opening a door .
The 3055 has a bigger door ...... and bigger seems to be better in this case .
I have not ordered any more 3055s ......but I plan on ordering a handfull of them soon ............because they are better :)

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 10, 2009, 03:30:05 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on June 10, 2009, 11:46:46 AM
My Latest Creation . 48 1 watt leds , well 47 and 1/2 . It was so bright it blew one so i had to crank it back a bit .
1 aa battery at 10 ma compared to 3 aa wide open amps . a 200% improvement or more if i do say so . I love light s . I must have Mexican in me ;) Standard jt with one of my special Germanium's and a small toroid from a PS. This sucker is as bright as a 60 watt light bulb . It was a good find at the flea market this morning for 3 bucks!!! I turned a 3 dollar light into an Expensive energy device . Im running it and see how long she goes ! I'm also using Bedini recharged non-rechargables . I have recharged this one all year long . I got 4 of them and i use them in the camera i take pictures here with .

Gadget

Gadget

That looks great :)

I am still working at getting my 60 LED array up to full power .
What was the numbers for your wraps ?

The best ones I have done are clearly in resonance ....... they hit a sweet spot and the lights get bright and the current draw drops way down .

The problem with this is it is not stable . when anything changes a little it drops out of the sweet spot.

Do you have this kind of problem with yours?

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 10, 2009, 03:54:02 PM

Yes, better. It is just a whole lot lot more helpful to throw in some details, like the things that made the system produce different (better and worse) results along the way to better.
We are doing research here (not applying for grants. :) )
We can help each other.
Others can benefit from our mistakes as well as our successes.

I believe in this kind of exchange and I want to see it work so I give all the details (well more than anyone wants to read anyway)
Like the linux community the open source works this way.
Like the ocean, and the earth and the ground... oh dear, now I am getting poetic. :D

Thank you Gary,
I can agree today.
I have finally had success with the 2N3055.
And the success came from the fact that I have switched the larger number coil into the base coil spot out of the collector coil spot.

@xee, I am glad to see you are here today, because this could mean an important modification to your theory... I think, anyway.

Here is what I can say for now:
1.2v battery
BJTLed in its spot throughout til the end
13T,3T,240T biggo
2N3055
5kpot

The bjtled barely lit at 4k ohm, so I am considering that the highest resistor end. So the full range was:
4000r 179v 13.3KHz
92r 449v 5.4KHz
As I continued to change the resistor past 92r, the voltage went down and up and did not return to the same place when I took the battery out and in again, so I am considering this the lowest resistance usable.

Right about here I noticed the whine. I have not heard the whine with any toroids yet.
I have a lot of white noise in my house, and maybe have just missed it, but today it was very audible.
It was lowdest at around
45r 456v-475v 4.65-4.16KHz then got quiet again. still there but lower volume?

The led became uncomfortably bright at about
247r producing 375v @6.89KHz

This feels like a day to light a fluorescent light.

One more thing. I took the light out and before I put it onto the scope, I looked at the voltage in the vac of the dmm.
It said 89v-93vac it kept moving too.
The sound became noticeable and the numbers were
45r 456v-475v 4.65-4.16KHz as I just reported above. I think I should re-check the numbers without the led at the 92r spot, just to see if it is the best spot without the led and maybe produces 475v instead of 449v.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 10, 2009, 04:17:05 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 10, 2009, 03:54:02 PM
Yes, better. It is just a whole lot lot more helpful to throw in some details, like the things that made the system produce different (better and worse) results along the way to better.
We are doing research here (not applying for grants. :) )
We can help each other.
Others can benefit from our mistakes as well as our successes.

I believe in this kind of exchange and I want to see it work so I give all the details (well more than anyone wants to read anyway)
Like the linux community the open source works this way.
Like the ocean, and the earth and the ground... oh dear, now I am getting poetic. :D

Thank you Gary,
I can agree today.
I have finally had success with the 2N3055.
And the success came from the fact that I have switched the larger number coil out of the base coil spot into the collector coil spot.

@xee, I am glad to see you are here today, because this could mean an important modification to your theory... I think, anyway.

Here is what I can say for now:
1.2v battery
BJTLed in its spot throughout til the end
13T,3T,240T biggo
2N3055
5kpot

The bjtled barely lit at 4k ohm, so I am considering that the highest resistor end. So the full range was:
4000r 179v 13.3KHz
92r 449v 5.4KHz
As I continued to change the resistor past 92r, the voltage went down and up and did not return to the same place when I took the battery out and in again, so I am considering this the lowest resistance usable.

Right about here I noticed the whine. I have not heard the whine with any toroids yet.
I have a lot of white noise in my house, and maybe have just missed it, but today it was very audible.
It was lowdest at around
45r 456v-475v 4.65-4.16KHz then got quiet again. still there but lower volume?

The led became uncomfortably bright at about
247r producing 375v @6.89KHz

This feels like a day to light a fluorescent light.

One more thing. I took the light out and before I put it onto the scope, I looked at the voltage in the vac of the dmm.
It said 89v-93vac it kept moving too.
The sound became noticeable and the numbers were
45r 456v-475v 4.65-4.16KHz as I just reported above. I think I should re-check the numbers without the led at the 92r spot, just to see if it is the best spot without the led and maybe produces 475v instead of 449v.

jeanna

Awesome!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 10, 2009, 04:35:17 PM

Thanks
;)

8)

:D

;D

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 10, 2009, 04:40:04 PM

Quote from Jeanna below:

"45r 456v-475v 4.65-4.16KHz then got quiet again. still there but lower volume?"

It was explained to me a while back that it does not get quieter, it is just that the frequency goes higher than out hearing range can detect. This should be around 20,000Hz but probably less for an old guy like me who played drums in rock and roll bands for over 20 years, ha ha.

The frequency I am talking about it the sound freq. which may or may not correspond to your electrical freq.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 10, 2009, 04:57:57 PM

@jeanna

Just to check the tab of the 2n3055 (case) is the collector.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 10, 2009, 05:09:03 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 10, 2009, 04:40:04 PM

"45r 456v-475v 4.65-4.16KHz then got quiet again. still there but lower volume?"

The frequency I am talking about it the sound freq. which may or may not correspond to your electrical freq.

Bill

tcsh di dit tsch di dit tsch...
Ah those lovely sounds of the top hat. It hurt my ears when I was in my twenties!

I think that it is the same. the frequency of an electrical device will at least sympathetically resonate with other things at that or harmonics of that frequency, right?

I think the interesting thing about this is that it is nowhere near the 20k mark. And never was, It starts well within the hearing range at 13k but is softer than my white noise. (or tinitis, or all of those things together- but certainly not age! ;D ! )
Then at this particular spot it cranks out the volume.
I guess you have not had the same thing.
Maybe someone else with a big toroid. Maybe the mass of the toroid gives the volume a boost. A magnetic speaker without the paper??

Altrez, do you get big volume on the whine ever?
Stprue is out of town, too bad. He has the exact one I have.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on June 10, 2009, 05:40:06 PM

I haven't touched a jtc in months now...they're all just sitting there.

I have some rather husky transistors and an unused car battery here, I was thinking of a few experimental setups: Does anyone know how I can limit the current from the source and still maintain the voltage?

Also, I was going to get a few large florescent tubes to try and light them. The idea is to use a common solar voltage / storage source and create efficient light.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 10, 2009, 06:53:18 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 10, 2009, 04:57:57 PM
@jeanna

Just to check the tab of the 2n3055 (case) is the collector.

Mark

Yes, I have a little machine screw holding a sort of soldered wire to the hole in place as the collector wire.
Why do you ask?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 10, 2009, 07:06:42 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 10, 2009, 06:53:18 PM
Yes, I have a little machine screw holding a sort of soldered wire to the hole in place as the collector wire.
Why do you ask?

jeanna

To make sure there was not a mistake there , since the base need more turn on this toroid, did you see my post on two page ago , on attracting and repulsing mode.This could also explain the base coil.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 10, 2009, 07:12:32 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 10, 2009, 03:30:05 PM
Gadget

That looks great :)

I am still working at getting my 60 LED array up to full power .
What was the numbers for your wraps ?

The best ones I have done are clearly in resonance ....... they hit a sweet spot and the lights get bright and the current draw drops way down .

The problem with this is it is not stable . when anything changes a little it drops out of the sweet spot.

Do you have this kind of problem with yours?

gary

I did not Count them :) It was a small yellow with blue inside toroid . a Power supply one . I just wrapped one wire around the whole thing then i wrapped another wire on top of that one all the way around . i would guess about 50t x 2 and it was so bright is smoked an led but i have a pot on it ! So i turned it down just a bit . Current consumption is nill and i bet i could light 100 with this one. I am have better luck just winding blindly than counting . I just fill it up and if i feel like winding more i do . i probably could put a secondary on top of the primary's ,looks like enough room to go another 50 with # 26 .Its still running bright since i posted this afternoon . It will probably run for several days drawing 10 and slowly getting less as V drops . no problem with stability at all . its range is wide . i ran it with 15 k . the germanium has an hfe (gain) of 300 and volts .2 . i love these transistors . they always work with lots of windings and always go low on power consumption

BTW i got some Great News today . I am Officially RETIRED ! Thanks Obama ;)

Gadget .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 10, 2009, 07:19:36 PM

Jeanna:

All of my toroid JT circuits (10 of them and counting) sing...some more than others but usually when under load. All of my Fuji JT's sing as well and when they are under a very heavy load, I believe it goes up above my hearing range because you can hear it climb up.

Gadget:

Very nice device you have made. Excellent work!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 10, 2009, 07:32:54 PM

@All,
Yesterday Mark asked about the frequency of the toroid and if the toroid output seemed to be best at a specific frequency.
So, today I have been thinking about that.

I am beginning to think this does not matter much.
Or if it does, if there is a fairly wide range for the effect.

With the exact same amount of wire and wound the same number of times but with different ones connected to the E and C, the coil began to increase its power to more than double the sum of the 2 halves.
Everyone may recall that the output was well below either half when they were connected in my ususal way.
So the increase from less than the output of one of the halves to more than the sum of the the halves, occurred just by reversing the Collector and Base coil amounts.

(still no comment from xee2)

1 Half of the MK1 pickup = 90v,
together 2 halves = 60v - 80v (or ~12v) depending...
until I switched the b and c coils to be opposite positions.
Then the best output was around
192v
That was somewhere around
13.5KHz.

That was yesterday.
So, today using the "better" ;) configuration but changing the transistor I get,
5 times one of those halves.
450v
I am amazed at the increase in output just with this transistor.

But, as the voltage went up the frequency went down. so this
450v is vibrating at a frequency of
4.16-4.5KHz depending on the led load at the bjtl.

So, I am not sure if 4.5KHz and 13.5KHz are in the same range. In fact it is the only range where the joule thief vibrates at all.

Maybe this is the resonant frequency range. ie. anything that allows the joule thief to oscillate might count as the range of resonant frequency. The physical mass as well as the material type of this ferrite core could be the deciding factors more than the circuit and its number of turns.

I think MK1 has been saying something like this, maybe.

I am going to remove the core from that stubblefield coil and see if it makes it resonate and output power more or less. I bought a cws ferrite bar that I intend to put in the center of that stubblefield coil but for now I cannot find it.

this will be interesting to see the differences between a coil with
steel, air, ferrite core. Same coil different cores.
Hopefully the 2N3055 can turn on with it...

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 10, 2009, 07:45:33 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 10, 2009, 07:19:36 PM
Jeanna:

All of my toroid JT circuits (10 of them and counting) sing...some more than others but usually when under load.

You know...
Mine never have, (I'm not counting the fuji which certainly does!) but all have been made with fairly small toroids and none of them are so slow as to be oscillating below 20KHz.

It has never occurred to me.
They were quiet because they were so very fast.

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 10, 2009, 07:47:16 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on June 10, 2009, 07:32:54 PM
(still no comment from xee2)

I have not used more than one pickup coil. But I would expect that adding the two pickup coils together in series is the same as having one coil with twice the turns. Doubling the turns on the pickup coil does not double the pickup coil voltage but is unusually about 80% of double the voltage. So I would expect two pickup coils with same number of turns in series to be about 80% of twice the voltage of one. My experience is that frequency decreases as number of pickup coil turns is increased.

However, if both pickup coils are already on the toroid, then perhaps adding them together wil be close to twice the voltage of one pickup coil since you are not adding more turns on the toroid that way.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 10, 2009, 07:58:42 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 10, 2009, 07:32:54 PM
@All,
Yesterday Mark asked about the frequency of the toroid and if the toroid output seemed to be best at a specific frequency.
So, today I have been thinking about that.

I am beginning to think this does not matter much.
Or if it does, if there is a fairly wide range for the effect.

With the exact same amount of wire and wound the same number of times but with different ones connected to the E and C, the coil began to increase its power to more than double the sum of the 2 halves.
Everyone may recall that the output was well below either half when they were connected in my ususal way.
So the increase from less than the output of one of the halves to more than the sum of the the halves, occurred just by reversing the Collector and Base coil amounts.

(still no comment from xee2)

1 Half of the MK1 pickup = 90v,
together 2 halves = 60v - 80v (or ~12v) depending...
until I switched the b and c coils to be opposite positions.
Then the best output was around
192v
That was somewhere around
13.5KHz.

That was yesterday.
So, today using the "better" ;) configuration but changing the transistor I get,
5 times one of those halves.
450v
I am amazed at the increase in output just with this transistor.

But, as the voltage went up the frequency went down. so this
450v is vibrating at a frequency of
4.16-4.5KHz depending on the led load at the bjtl.

So, I am not sure if 4.5KHz and 13.5KHz are in the same range. In fact it is the only range where the joule thief vibrates at all.

Maybe this is the resonant frequency range. ie. anything that allows the joule thief to oscillate might count as the range of resonant frequency. The physical mass as well as the material type of this ferrite core could be the deciding factors more than the circuit and its number of turns.

I think MK1 has been saying something like this, maybe.

I am going to remove the core from that stubblefield coil and see if it makes it resonate and output power more or less. I bought a cws ferrite bar that I intend to put in the center of that stubblefield coil but for now I cannot find it.

this will be interesting to see the differences between a coil with
steel, air, ferrite core. Same coil different cores.
Hopefully the 2N3055 can turn on with it...

jeanna

AS Mk1 and i said you corrected the PHASE !
what Transistor did you use . i know the gain of a 2n3055 is rather low .
and as far as mass of a toroid is concerned , it don't matter . I get extremely better results with beads and small toroid. just look at the tiny fugi AAA transformer . its output is very high and less than 1/4 inch . Its the Windings that matter and the phase plus the gain of your transistor.
Here are a few interesting oscillators that look like Jts one of them will sing to you . you can build one and hook a small speaker up and hear your EB voltage change pitch !

Good Job

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 10, 2009, 08:16:58 PM

@ jeanna,

Quote from: jeanna on June 10, 2009, 03:54:02 PM
And the success came from the fact that I have switched the larger number coil out of the base coil spot into the collector coil spot.

@xee, I am glad to see you are here today, because this could mean an important modification to your theory... I think, anyway.

If you look at my diagrams you will see that I have always done it that way. No change in theory required.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 10, 2009, 08:17:12 PM

@MK!
I cannot understand those concepts yet. I have made a drawing that represents the primary in the jt I have on the biggo. It is not like either of those choices you gave me as far as I can tell, so...
Please feel free to change it and annotate it to explain, if you want to.

@xee,
Thank you, but
I didn't expect a comment about the pickups.

I meant the primary where the larger number of turns is on the base and smaller number is on the collector. and wow it is way bigger in output, but before on other designs or whatever... the opposite was true.
I knew you were working a theory about this. That is why I thought you would comment.

@Gadget
It is a 2N3055 It is printed with RCA on the front.

I corrected the phase?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 10, 2009, 08:29:58 PM

Quote from: xee2 on June 10, 2009, 08:16:58 PM
@ jeanna,

If you look at my diagrams you will see that I have always done it that way. No change in theory required.

Xee
I made a mistake in that paragraph.
I am so glad you responded. I have fixed it it should say:

QuoteI have finally had success with the 2N3055.
And the success came from the fact that I have switched the larger number coil into the base coil spot out of the collector coil spot.

No wonder you did not respond!!!

thank you and it is in time,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 10, 2009, 08:33:40 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 10, 2009, 08:17:12 PM
@MK!
I cannot understand those concepts yet. I have made a drawing that represents the primary in the jt I have on the biggo. It is not like either of those choices you gave me as far as I can tell, so...
Please feel free to change it and annotate it to explain, if you want to.

@xee,
Thank you, but
I didn't expect a comment about the pickups.

I meant the primary where the larger number of turns is on the base and smaller number is on the collector. and wow it is way bigger in output, but before on other designs or whatever... the opposite was true.
I knew you were working a theory about this. That is why I thought you would comment.

@Gadget
It is a 2N3055 It is printed with RCA on the front.

I corrected the phase?

thank you,

jeanna

yes remember i told you there are 6 ways to hook up the primary Jt . for example . : two wires wrapped the same time . the beginning is 12 the end of those wires are 3 and 4 . ok . we can hook 1+ 3 together and then switch the wire on B an c with 2 and 4 thats 3 different ways then we could hook up 2+4 together and switch 1 and 3 between b and c . thats 3 more ways . 6 total . In the 6 ways you will find the correct phase to run secondaries in series and obtain gain rather than cancel . . BTW secondaries have 2 more phases as well . Confused . hehe . you do get the point though ?
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 10, 2009, 08:36:05 PM

@jeanna

I modified the drawing a bit to look at the field lines created in the toroid by the jt coils.

@gadget

The 2n3055 seem so work better at low hz , slower is key with bigger toroid.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 10, 2009, 08:42:59 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on June 10, 2009, 08:33:40 PM
BTW secondaries have 2 more phases as well . Confused . hehe . you do get the point though ?
Gadget

I thought we were just talking about the secondary. The pickup.

Here for a review because it is so many words
90 +90 = 80
90 + 90 = 12
boo hiss bad
that was yesterday until I put the many turns onto the Base coil

90 + 90 = 192
yeay

But ta da today...

90 + 90 = 450

OMG!

The 2 differences were more winds on the base coil
the transistor was changed to a 2N3055

So, is that phase?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 10, 2009, 08:47:53 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 10, 2009, 08:36:05 PM
@jeanna

I modified the drawing a bit to look at the field lines created in the toroid by the jt coils.

Thank you, Mark,

Now, is there a way to say what happens with the 3 directional pickup as you do it? When added to this?

The thing to add to this question is that the ends of my pickup are starting and ending on the bottom of this drawing. (there were reasons, but I want to be sure you realize this)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 10, 2009, 08:57:52 PM

@ Jeanna

Some more to get a better picture.

Yes i realize It !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 10, 2009, 09:12:26 PM

@jeanna

Nice work. I have the scope out but have been drinking mass quantities of Corona and cant seem to understand the concept of differentials? Please explain!!

@all

I have had a break through of sorts. I Now believe the JT can go over a 1.0! I will soon prove this with the LLA1. I have a good friend who works for a company called General Dynamics he stopped by and took a look at my setup and said I need to move away from ferrite cores. And said something about COP over 1.0. I have done some research and the military is using a JT with different alloys.

Please read this:

The soft magnetic properties of amorphous alloy toroids is improved by turning under tension an amorphous alloy ribbon onto itself to form a winding having a preselected number of turns such that the radially acting compressive stress is minimized. In one embodiment, the radially acting compressive stress is locally minimized by using such a toroid pole-piece geometry that the windings have as little an area of curvature as is possible. In another embodiment, the radially acting compressive stress is globally minimized by turning the ribbon onto itself such that successive turns of the winding are wrapped with progressively less tension.

Also:

http://www.dtic.mil/srch/search?template=%2Fdtic%2Fsearch%2Fresults-template.html&changequery=1&hl=y&s=1&searchview=d4&enableLemmatization=YES&site=dod&q=Amorphous+toroids&submit.x=0&submit.y=0&c=u0&c=u2&c=u7&c=u8&c=u1&c=u5&c=u6&c=u3&c=j1&c=d3&c=d4&c=d7&c=d6&c=d8&c=da&c=t3&c=c4&c=t4&c=a0&c=n0&c=s0&c=b0&c=e3&c=c0&c=r0&c=m0&c=w0

Exciting stuff! More research shows that the MEG uses the same type of alloys. Here is a link for the Toroids.

http://www.hilltech.com/products/emc_components/Amorphous_Shielding.html

All the best,

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 10, 2009, 09:42:56 PM

@ALL and Altrez

Really interesting !

I also have found some piezo transformer

http://focus.ti.com/lit/an/slyt107/slyt107.pdf

http://www.electronics-manufacturers.com/products/piezo-transformer-244.html

http://www.noliac.com/Ring_transformers-111.aspx

Ring transformers

The high-power ring-shaped ceramic multilayer transformer is Noliac's patented PZT transformer designed to operate on the thickness mode resonance, enabling extremely high power density levels.

This technology is especially attractive for compact and high efficiency step up or step down applications, such as adaptors for electronic equipment.

Additional benefits include:

* Very high efficiency (>98%)
* High power density (>40 W/cm3)
* Little electromagnetic interference (EMI)
* Very high and variable transformation ratios possible
* Integrated galvanic insulation between input and output
* Working frequency in the range 400kHz to 2MHz

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 10, 2009, 09:51:36 PM

T storms
will b back
jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 10, 2009, 09:57:20 PM

Quote from: altrez on June 10, 2009, 09:12:26 PM
@jeanna

Nice work. I have the scope out but have been drinking mass quantities of Corona and cant seem to understand the concept of differentials? Please explain!!

@all

I have had a break through of sorts. I Now believe the JT can go over a 1.0! I will soon prove this with the LLA1. I have a good friend who works for a company called General Dynamics he stopped by and took a look at my setup and said I need to move away from ferrite cores. And said something about COP over 1.0. I have done some research and the military is using a JT with different alloys.

Please read this:

The soft magnetic properties of amorphous alloy toroids is improved by turning under tension an amorphous alloy ribbon onto itself to form a winding having a preselected number of turns such that the radially acting compressive stress is minimized. In one embodiment, the radially acting compressive stress is locally minimized by using such a toroid pole-piece geometry that the windings have as little an area of curvature as is possible. In another embodiment, the radially acting compressive stress is globally minimized by turning the ribbon onto itself such that successive turns of the winding are wrapped with progressively less tension.

Also:

http://www.dtic.mil/srch/search?template=%2Fdtic%2Fsearch%2Fresults-template.html&changequery=1&hl=y&s=1&searchview=d4&enableLemmatization=YES&site=dod&q=Amorphous+toroids&submit.x=0&submit.y=0&c=u0&c=u2&c=u7&c=u8&c=u1&c=u5&c=u6&c=u3&c=j1&c=d3&c=d4&c=d7&c=d6&c=d8&c=da&c=t3&c=c4&c=t4&c=a0&c=n0&c=s0&c=b0&c=e3&c=c0&c=r0&c=m0&c=w0

Exciting stuff! More research shows that the MEG uses the same type of alloys. Here is a link for the Toroids.

http://www.hilltech.com/products/emc_components/Amorphous_Shielding.html

All the best,

-Altrez

WELL WELL WELL....

HUMMMMMM ......

I POST SH!T THEY TURN OFF ON MY SCREEN ON MY LAPTOP.....

ILL LEAVE IT THERE ...

IST! ;)

BTW A WHILE AGO I MADE A SEDJUESTION FOR A RODIN COIL WITH A CRYSTAL CORE TUNED TO YOU GUESSED IT .... ;) ...

HUMMMMMM

OOOO BUT I HAD TO REALIZE WHO AND WHAT I AM ... :) WHY HOW AND ALL THE OTHER QUESTIONS THAT REMAIN UNANSWERED ... :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 10, 2009, 10:00:14 PM

@all

all those that talk about lost in the jt and OU nothing is ever lost , just transformed , those that still can't see , look at those 3 video , like i said all along the energy is only limited by the number of pickup coil .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuVtKYfSDI8&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1pV-zHUWck&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQXArYBAloo&feature=channel_page

Now dose a jt transmit , well LoL ...

Mark

Thank to Lid and Jonny!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on June 10, 2009, 10:03:44 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 09, 2009, 08:49:50 PM
Thank you Gary, I was afraid that was the answer.

I think there is more to the parallel thing. I may start the ac joule thief thread soon. I want to explore all this jt and secondary/pickups in parallel circuits and maybe more, and see where it can go.

thank you,

jeanna

jeanna just a thought but why not keep all joule thief related stuff here? i dont understand why we should split the thread.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 10, 2009, 10:11:25 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on June 10, 2009, 09:57:20 PM
WELL WELL WELL....

HUMMMMMM ......

I POST SH!T THEY TURN OFF ON MY SCREEN ON MY LAPTOP.....

ILL LEAVE IT THERE ...

IST! ;)

BTW A WHILE AGO I MADE A SEDJUESTION FOR A RODIN COIL WITH A CRYSTAL CORE TUNED TO YOU GUESSED IT .... ;) ...

HUMMMMMM

OOOO BUT I HAD TO REALIZE WHO AND WHAT I AM ... :) WHY HOW AND ALL THE OTHER QUESTIONS THAT REMAIN UNANSWERED ... :)

Yeah I understand what you are saying. /me is waiting for the spook to knock at my door.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 10, 2009, 10:50:32 PM

@all

I new video , a jt with a triac for charge back .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGVDt9MbaKE

Mark

thanks to theIronshark

And this one jt and electric guitar http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOz1pN8FROo

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on June 10, 2009, 10:50:36 PM

Quote from: altrez on June 10, 2009, 10:11:25 PM

Yeah I understand what you are saying. /me is waiting for the spook to knock at my door.

-Altrez

spooks dont operate like that..... and they dont just turn off computers....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: newbie123 on June 10, 2009, 11:02:57 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on June 10, 2009, 10:50:36 PM
spooks dont operate like that..... and they dont just turn off computers....

They probably could care less about what anyone here is doing.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 10, 2009, 11:05:31 PM

Quote from: newbie123 on June 10, 2009, 11:02:57 PM
They probably could care less about what anyone here is doing.

Well thanks , it is just as good !

At least there is people reading , and showing them self up from time to time .

Like you i might ad.

And what the jt is not risky like a toroidal power unit ?

I still have not seen one tpu , worth mentioning , but people sure talk about it !

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 10, 2009, 11:12:03 PM

@MK1
It is very important.

Quote from: Mk1 on June 10, 2009, 01:08:45 PM
@all ******this is important ******
Ok i will tell you about what a motor told me, a motor has 2 coil like the jt

I was using it like a generator to light led , so i connected the led directly on the motor lead , started rotating the motor shaft by hand , the led got bright right away , but i also notice the the shaft was not rotating easily now , not easy like when nothing is connected to it, then i use a coil on the negative led leg , the led got just as bright but the tension in the shaft was gone. I don't know what the coil did, how it could do so , maybe delaying the feedback , or changing its pole , choke effect ?

Ok now why did i tell you about this , well because if you load one of the pick coil with a big cap the the other pickup coil will show charge cap voltage, like in the motor experiment the jt get loaded back .

So now i suggest making a system that load back the toroid ,

Mark

Mark, this is very interresting, I read on the net somewhere where a motor has a dragging effect as the pole piece passes the magnet, I couldn' understand it, but you coil seems to have an effect to punch through a dragging magnetic field.

Could you do a quick pencil drawing of your hand crank generator with the coil and LED setup and send it to me please, I would like to replicate this.

jim

@Resonanceman
@Gadgetmall
That was a good find , the Star LEDs that is, my single 1Watt Luxeon Star LED cost me $12 so a 10 watter is rather cheep at your prices.

I agree, these bucket leds are going to make all fillament lights redundant in a couple of years.
There is a circuit to power this stuff just below, mabe we can modify it some watt.

If you want to test one of theses in a JT, it is a good idea to add a 220 ohm resistor or use a 500 ohm pot to experiment with until you are familier with this device, but I can connect it to my JT directly and it works just like an ordinary LED.

I made a post about these Star LEDs about 25 pages back, and only 1 person picked up on it.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 10, 2009, 11:54:25 PM

@electricme

This is how i discovered it .

Also you really need to see this , i would not charge a battery but use the high amps pulse in a bigger toroid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGVDt9MbaKE

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Thaelin on June 11, 2009, 12:11:31 AM

MK1

Think you will find the coil changes the phase angle of the current
so it lags the voltage a bit more. Therefore it drags less.

thay

Gadget:

I am already tired so I see no reason what so ever to be "Re Tired" ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 11, 2009, 12:30:36 AM

Oh I love the smell of rain on a hot dry world. Soo refreshing.

Hi again everybody,

I just removed the steel bolt core from that NS generator I showed you all yesterday.
Remember it has 360 turns of 2 kinds of wire and the cu wire is twisted to the fe wire beginning to end like all primaries of regular joule thiefs.
It had a secondary I wrapped but who knows how many turns but it is surely a step down transformer.

I am using the 2N3055 from this afternoon's tests.
With the steel bolt inside the voltage across the pick up was 3.63v at 41.6KHz with the light in the bjtl spot. Just like yesterday with the 2N3904.

After I removed the steel bolt the voltage across the pickup was 4.14v when the resistor was around 90r and the frequency dropped way way down to 7.57KHz .

That is a major drop in frequency for that little (0.75vvolts) change in voltage.

Then I remembered that the radio shack mag wire spools fit over this. I could only fit it over the bottom where the turn around is for the wires, but the voltage popped up to 35.9v @ 2.77KHz

Oh the other thing. I could not remove the light.
The circuit died when I did.
That is probably because the 2N3055 needs it for something and the 2N3904 does not.

So, the steel has a lot to do with keeping the frequency high.
This is probably a complex proportional thing with 360 turns changing from a steel bolt to an air core but there it is.
I think this is a big difference.

I found the ferrite rod and it is too fat to fit into the straw. Darn.

Now, I will go back and answer those questions I missed...

@MK1 - that is pretty interesting with the motor and led and transformer.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 11, 2009, 01:27:48 AM

Quote from: altrez on June 10, 2009, 09:12:26 PM
@jeanna

Nice work. I have the scope out but have been drinking mass quantities of Corona and cant seem to understand the concept of differentials? Please explain!!

Differentials?
do you mean divisions?

much beer?
sleep well, ;)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 11, 2009, 01:29:20 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 10, 2009, 08:57:52 PM
@ Jeanna

Some more to get a better picture.

Yes i realize It !

So, really it already is like the mag amp drawn in the butler windings site, isn't it?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 11, 2009, 03:51:01 AM

@MK1

Thanks for the "pencil" drawing, you did a nice job with it.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 11, 2009, 04:27:36 AM

@electricme

Thanks !

Did you look at the video , ok i remember , dial up.

Well i will get the schematic for you.

But basically , make a jt charge a cap up to a specific voltage , then dump it automatically in a bat that is what he dose.

With a TRIAC and in this case a neon , that triggers at 80 volt , so the cap charge to 80 volt current passes the neon activate the triac bag , you get a 80 volt pulse, now think maybe lower voltage neon , more cap charged , those cap could be pulse back into the same toroid or a new one.

Mark

From theIronstark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 11, 2009, 07:19:28 AM

@jeanna

Yeah I think so:) Are you lighting a CFL with that toroid yet ;)

@all

I am looking for a 300VDC power supply @ 5amps would anyone happen to know where to purchase one? It needs to run from 110VAC any help would be great..

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 11, 2009, 08:38:35 AM

@Altrez

Quote from: altrez on June 11, 2009, 07:19:28 AM
@all

I am looking for a 300VDC power supply @ 5amps would anyone happen to know where to purchase one? It needs to run from 110VAC any help would be great..

-Altrez

Hello Al ;)
Would you mind me asking what its to be used for?

If you carnt find a ready made device, try this.
But for goodness sake be careful.

Look for a 240v AC to 110 step down transformer, then reverse the input from 240v AC to the 110 v side, then rectify the 240v AC with a 600v 30Amp bridge diode.

Then put a variac in series with the input (to bring the power output back to where you want it)

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 11, 2009, 09:35:13 AM

Quote from: newbie123 on June 10, 2009, 11:02:57 PM
They probably could care less about what anyone here is doing.

hummm

OK

GLAD TO HEAR IT ...

:D

SOME TIME AGO I RELEASED A PEIZEO RING .... IN THIS THRED THEY TURNED OFF MY SCREEN

I MUST REMIND YOU NOW THIS SAME THING HAPPINED TO ME ... A WHILE B4 THE LAST ONE ONLY THEY BURNT OUT MY SCREEN ON MY OTHER LAPTOP ....

DO U KNOW WHY ... LOL

THINK ABOUT RINGINGGGG CRYSTALS MGAICLY ...

IF THEY DONT CARE LETS TALK QUANTUM COMUNICATIONS ...

OR SCLAR WAVE RING ... WANDS...

AND IF THEY STILL DONT CARE LETS GO ALL THE WAY TO BUILD A DEVICE THAT BURNS OFF CHEM TRAILS AND POKES A HOLE IN THE SH!T WEB ... USED FOR MIND CONTROL ... AND WILL ALLOW THE CONCISOUS RAYS TO ENTER OUR REALITY AND WAKEN HU-MAN MINDS ...

WELL THERE IS NO LIMITS ...

AND WHEN THE ONES WITH THE DOW FINALLY PAY ...

MAYBE ILL TEACH THEM BOUT ALL THEASE THINGS BUILT IN STONE THAT WERE LEFT

BUT WHAT WILL THEY DO TO AND WITH MY FRIENDS DEVICES ... HUMMMMMM

I BET I LL FLY ONE ;)

IST!

I HEAR THERE IS A NEW MOVIE COMEING OUT.... :D JUST FOR TV-MANS ...

IT IS CALLED RISE OF THE LIKENS .... ;) :D :D :D I HAD TO LAUGH WHEN I HERD THE TITLE ... ;)

LETS JUST SAY IM SURE I MET SOME SIKENS.... :)

A SONG BATTLE FEILD... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skEodWj19jQ

BETTER GO GET YOUR ARMOR.... ;)

AND I ANIT TALKIN 3D WAR!!

I WILL MENTION THIS .... THEY SEPERATED ME FROM MY CHILDREN AND HIJACKED HER ... SO ....

IM A SUE!!! ;) :D :D :D FOR DENIEING ME MY RIGHT TO SEE MY CHILDREN !!

I DROPED A WARNING YESTERDAY ... SAYING I WISH NOT TO HAVE MY CHILDREN FED THERE DUMB U DOWN SHOTS MY CHILDREN WILL BE SCHOOLED PRIVATLY...

GO AGINST MY WISHES ... I WILL GO AGINST YOURS... ;) ;D

ILL RINGG IT ... AND WHEN THEY SHOW UP DO NOT BE SURPRISED .... :)

AND IF FOR SOME REASON YOU THINK THIS IS NOT REAL ... LOL AT U ....

I HEAR THEY TURNED OFF A FEW NUKE POWER PLANTS IN THE PAST ... ;)

O THE KNOWALGE THEY MUST HAVE .... :o

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 11, 2009, 10:56:52 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 10, 2009, 10:50:32 PM
@all

I new video , a jt with a triac for charge back .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGVDt9MbaKE

Mark

thanks to theIronshark

And this one jt and electric guitar http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOz1pN8FROo

I laughed my heart off .Only a guitar player would understand ;D Thanks Mk1

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 11, 2009, 11:04:20 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 10, 2009, 08:57:52 PM
@ Jeanna

Some more to get a better picture.

Yes i realize It !

Thanks Mk1 for putting the phasing in pictorial form . a Baby could understand the picture . I must have your drawing program !

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Doug1 on June 11, 2009, 11:19:20 AM

Can a fl tube light put enough light out to a string of PV cells to run a JT which in turn is running the light. Set up so one side of the light is facing a parabolic housing with the PV moduals the other side providing usable light. AA battery intact for the start up.
Also same question of usage with pelteirs set up as a heat pump to make the same loop some to make hot and cold some to turn the difference into current to run the prime mover ie the JT.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on June 11, 2009, 11:43:04 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on June 11, 2009, 09:35:13 AM

... LOL AT U ....

@innovationstation

Hi.
For a long time now I have been wondering what the letters (LOL) mean.
Pardon my ignorance, but what does those letters stand for?

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 11, 2009, 11:51:27 AM

Quote from: altrez on June 11, 2009, 07:19:28 AM
... Are you lighting a CFL with that toroid yet ;)

No, and I agree I should be. I think I should have a while ago with other toroids, also.

I must be not doing something that "anybody" can do. I think others are doing something that is so obvious to them that they never mention it, but it is what would make it work.

So,

Please all those who have managed to turn a fluoro on with a toroid... I need some help here.
Probably help with the obvious.
Meanwhile, I will watch some lidmotor videos etc.
If there is one that directly addresses this, please get me the link.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on June 11, 2009, 12:04:58 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 11, 2009, 11:51:27 AM
No, and I agree I should be. I think I should have a while ago with other toroids, also.

I must be not doing something that "anybody" can do. I think others are doing something that is so obvious to them that they never mention it, but it is what would make it work.

So,

Please all those who have managed to turn a fluoro on with a toroid... I need some help here.
Probably help with the obvious.
Meanwhile, I will watch some lidmotor videos etc.
If there is one that directly addresses this, please get me the link.

thank you,

jeanna

Lady @jeanna

The link to his youtube videos is this one:
http://www.youtube.com/user/Lidmotor

I wish you success.
If you attain your goal everybody here wins, because you share.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 11, 2009, 12:07:05 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on June 11, 2009, 11:43:04 AM
@innovationstation

Hi.
For a long time now I have been wondering what the letters (LOL) mean.
Pardon my ignorance, but what does those letters stand for?

Jesus

LOL = LOTS OF LAUGH'S

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on June 11, 2009, 12:16:03 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on June 11, 2009, 12:07:05 PM
LOL = LOTS OF LAUGH'S

Gadget

Thank you @gadget !
That is a new one for me.
Last time I learnt that asap meant as soon as posible.
At the energetic forum they use the graphic below.

Keep your good work!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 11, 2009, 12:16:43 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 11, 2009, 11:51:27 AM
No, and I agree I should be. I think I should have a while ago with other toroids, also.

I must be not doing something that "anybody" can do. I think others are doing something that is so obvious to them that they never mention it, but it is what would make it work.

So,

Please all those who have managed to turn a fluoro on with a toroid... I need some help here.
Probably help with the obvious.
Meanwhile, I will watch some lidmotor videos etc.
If there is one that directly addresses this, please get me the link.

thank you,

jeanna

Jeanna i wish you could light an Fl . I would get the lowest wattage CLf i could . I have always lit Spiral Cfls easier than tube . start with 9 to 4 watt . . I don't usually tear apart good ones cause i have a constant supply of bad ones. They burn out quicker that an incandescent bulb here .China Junk ! I would recommend to build a voltage multiplier on your 450 volt model to attain over 800 volts first . then if you can't light one you are cursed ;) I rely on the power of Christ on My Projects . Anything i touch seems to work . Its a gift the Neighbors appreciate from Vcrs,tvs to toasters and walkietalkies .Its the Power Of Christ Mixed in with a tiny bit of ingenuity and faith . If you recall way back when we all had agoal to light them and now everyone i s. I was Disappointed because the hazen and mk1 didn't work for me so i sat down and just grabbed a toroid and started to wind blindly . soo i got 1300 volts and a mess up Tv . Sometimes science needs to be set aside and just do it .. I have found that the size of the toroid don't matter for HV . And look at your simple switching of transistors and collector base wires you did . you Phased is and got + more voltage . Keep on keeping on . My secret is i wind a bunch of primary and a bunch of secondary . Unknown toroid work best for some reason except for the one known toroid i got 1300 volts . I still want to go higher so im waiting for a Vector board to put My Sec on . a Sec is alike a JT . its a transmitter .

Albert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 11, 2009, 12:50:31 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on June 11, 2009, 12:16:43 PM
Jeanna i wish you could light an Fl . I would get the lowest wattage CLf i could . I have always lit Spiral Cfls easier than tube . start with 9 to 4 watt . . I don't usually tear apart good ones cause i have a constant supply of bad ones. They burn out quicker that an incandescent bulb here .China Junk ! I would recommend to build a voltage multiplier on your 450 volt model to attain over 800 volts first . then if you can't light one you are cursed ;) I rely on the power of Christ on My Projects . Anything i touch seems to work . Its a gift the Neighbors appreciate from Vcrs,tvs to toasters and walkietalkies .Its the Power Of Christ Mixed in with a tiny bit of ingenuity and faith . If you recall way back when we all had agoal to light them and now everyone i s. I was Disappointed because the hazen and mk1 didn't work for me so i sat down and just grabbed a toroid and started to wind blindly . soo i got 1300 volts and a mess up Tv . Sometimes science needs to be set aside and just do it .. I have found that the size of the toroid don't matter for HV . And look at your simple switching of transistors and collector base wires you did . you Phased is and got + more voltage . Keep on keeping on . My secret is i wind a bunch of primary and a bunch of secondary . Unknown toroid work best for some reason except for the one known toroid i got 1300 volts . I still want to go higher so im waiting for a Vector board to put My Sec on . a Sec is alike a JT . its a transmitter .

Albert

LOL AS I USE IT MEANS LAUGH OUT LOULD ... :D

BUT THIS ASIDE

I WILL TELL YOU WHY YOU KNOW WHAT YOU DO AND WHY IT COMES EASY FOR YOU ... ;)

IF YOU SO DESIRE THE TRUTH ... :)

IST!

THIS QUESTION WILL GIVE YOU YOUR ANSWER ... :)

HOW MANY CRYSTALS YOU GOT LAYING ROUND :D ;D ;D ;D

here is a little more truth 4 u all :)

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=1872.820

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 11, 2009, 01:08:41 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on June 11, 2009, 12:04:58 PM
I wish you success.
If you attain your goal everybody here wins, because you share.
Jesus

Sweet.
Thank you, jesus.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 11, 2009, 01:35:29 PM

@all

I have a question , about bulbs that can be used for a switch with a triac.

I am looking for one at 12 and 24 volts .

Any idea ?

Mark

Its to use if this type of circuit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGVDt9MbaKE

BTW he captures the bemf from the jt not the secondary , now could we do both . :o

Edit Gadget i just use paint if you have a pc you are all set ! old man Hi Hi retired ! congrats !!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 11, 2009, 01:44:29 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on June 11, 2009, 12:16:43 PM
Jeanna i wish you could light an Fl . I... I would recommend to build a voltage multiplier on your 450 volt model to attain over 800 volts first

What is a voltage multiplier?
Is it another transformer added to this?
Do I put it across the pickup wires?

QuoteI was Disappointed because the hazen and mk1 didn't work for me so i sat down and just grabbed a toroid and started to wind blindly . soo i got 1300 volts and a mess up Tv .

As I recall there was a lot more to it than lots of turns.
There were caps and ... I mean 1300 volts may do it but I think 450volts should do it.
The fuji ckt has a 300v booster cap.
I am missing a cap, or something like that that you and others just "know" to put in there.
And do not realize others are not doing this.

No, I am NOT cursed.
I am learning and trying by error. I am OK with that.
I need to be in the midst of the think tank to get the input, but I do not have any resource that can just "show" me, except for 'youtube' and 'youguys' ;)

Quote.... I have found that the size of the toroid don't matter for HV .

I have noticed that voltage goes down when frequency goes up.
The little toroids are very good at going fast.
They do not have enough physical room in them to make enough turns to create the voltage from the frequency. (it is not really create, I know.... or maybe it is.)

Has anyone else heard the toroid sing LOWER when the volts go up?
In Slayer's video where he says let me turn this down a bit... He is turning the pot so the voltage goes down.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niiL1Rhcf6g (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niiL1Rhcf6g) at the 30 second mark.
Well, all you musicians... the sound=frequency goes up until you can barely hear it as the voltage goes down and the bulb dims. = sound proof.

Quote... Keep on keeping on...

thanks for the encouragement

QuoteMy secret is i wind a bunch of primary and a bunch of secondary . Unknown toroid work best for some reason except for the one known toroid i got 1300 volts .

Yes, that is what I am talking about when I say "I am poking at it."
I always go back for more details when I poke something and it looks promissing.
But, I want to know how it works, not just get results.
It is my MO (modus operandi = how I operate)

Thank you Al,

So, Al and everyone else,
I would like some more detail on a cap and how I should connect it to make the start spike I think I need on a cfl.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 11, 2009, 01:56:09 PM

well

if you had a septate ... tuned curcuit you may be able to swip a magnet past it ... to charge from the colapse ... for the first charge....

i recomend some have a look at this fourm .... ;)

naw i never read it all i already wear mine ....

ist

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36706

David Icke's Official Forums > Main Forums > Hidden Science / Advanced Technology / Top Secret

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tak22 on June 11, 2009, 02:06:14 PM

out of the blue and because you guys LOVE to wind coils and try different ideas ;D

Rogowski Coil - thank you to BEP!

Quote from: BEP on November 12, 2008, 08:43:47 AM

@All,

My experiments were basically Rogowski coils with one end passed through the center (as a flat spiral - 1 or 2 turns) and the outer winding wound around that core 360 degrees and then reversed in direction and handedness the full 360 degrees.
Highest frequency division is found with fewer spiral turns.

The number of cancelling outer turn pairs should be an even number.

Spacing between the core and outer wrap should be at least 2.5 times the diameter of the conductor.
Spacing between the turns of the outer wrap should be as close as possible and less than 2 times the diameter conductor.

The results seem counter intuitive. The lower the inductance of the core gives a lower resonant point.

I believe the outer wrap is creating induced nodes and antinodes on the core conductor. 'Squeezing the hose' or pinching, so to speak.

It is possible to have a spiral coil that should resonate at 30 mHz (overall coil capacitance is increased) and find the coil current 'dip' (drop) near normal resonance divided by the 1/2 the number of cancelling outer turns.
Or even much greater.

There, I've shared details on the most easily repeatable result I've had these past couple of years.
To me, this explains the strange 22kHz resonance of experiments by others and extremely low points found on my other tests.

If you try this please be aware if you create a resonance that matches the mechanical resonance of your core there will be mechanical movement. Mine broke a pane of glass I was using as an insulating surface on my workbench.

Since the magnetic field is well known to be concentrated inside winding of a toroid this idea may be part of a TPU function. I can see a magnetic field rotating about this axis.

BEP

Quote from: BEP on June 11, 2009, 07:22:30 AM
5000Hz can also mean 5000 RPM so it must be like a generator with a virtual rotor. Albeit, the 'fields' mentioned are not described as magnetic.
I hope we do too. I don't think we will if we continue thinking about moving a simple magnet over a piece of wire. That is the weakest way to cause current flow with a magnet. The strongest way is to align that magnetic field radial to the wire. Then rotate it around the wire at very high speeds.

Therefore, the 'core' is a conductor or air AND this conductor is in the center of the TPU. This conductor is created with the operation of the TPU, NOT part of the assembly.

How do you think he could measure current with the clamp meter with no wire in the clamp? Try it. I have. The only way to have a reading is with a current carrying wire inside the clamp or a large change in the local magnetic field strength (also, assumed possible if you had current flowing through air).

I think the TPU is nothing more than a means to emulate the action of magnetic fields around a current carrying wire. When running it causes current to flow through the vertical axis of the TPU.

To tap this potential he adds a Rogowski coil all around the TPU (constant voltage output) and we have confused this coil to be a control coil. The only control coils are the ones on the outside placed in quadrature positions. The FTPU and OTPU use a slightly different method.

With that thought in-mind consider this:

You CAN stack Rogowski coils on a current carrying wire. AND you CAN connect them in any method you choose to increase voltage or current output. AND you can have as many as you want.

Our terminology is wrong. The 'collector' IS the complete TPU. The loop in the middle is just the return wire for the Rogowski coil.

While the above is only my opinion I am quite certain I am correct.

Quote from: giantkiller on June 11, 2009, 11:04:23 AM
Here is a good explanation:
http://www.imeko.org/publications/tc4-2008/IMEKO-TC4-2008-148.pdf

tak

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 11, 2009, 03:09:04 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on June 11, 2009, 11:51:27 AM
Please all those who have managed to turn a fluoro on with a toroid... I need some help here.
Probably help with the obvious.

Why don't you try to EXACTLY duplicate a circuit that was shown to work. You always seem to want to try something different instead of doing what is known to work. I think you have all of the parts that hazens1 used except maybe the TIP31, but a 2N3055 will work as a substitute. And someone said the TIP31 was available at RS.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 11, 2009, 03:20:50 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGcwHEgP_Vw

i love rock n roll... ;)

put another dime in the jutebox brother !!

AMEN! ;D

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on June 11, 2009, 03:48:55 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 10, 2009, 10:50:32 PM
And this one jt and electric guitar http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOz1pN8FROo

LOL
several species of small furry animals gathered together in a cave and grooving with a jt?

that's the best finger pedal i have seen, by far!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 11, 2009, 04:11:14 PM

Quote from: xee2 on June 11, 2009, 03:09:04 PM
@ jeanna

Why don't you try to EXACTLY duplicate a circuit that was shown to work.

;D ;D
I thought I was. !!

OK so, I see the one that is also connected to the pos and I made a wire with a fork in it for something gadget did. I will see how that works.

It is a funny question you ask.

I will do my best. ;)

Was it a Hazens circuit you were making that worked?

I will be back.

:D

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 11, 2009, 04:33:20 PM

Nope, didn't work.
I put the pos and the 1 side of the pick up on the one pin and
the other pickup wire on the other pin.

nothing.
I also tried the cfl which has been relieved of its case.
I also tried the 15w which is higher wattage but less than 20 of xee picture and happened to turn on more readily with my fuji.

Hey, anyone got a light?

Quote from: Mk1 on June 10, 2009, 10:50:32 PM

And this one jt and electric guitar http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOz1pN8FROo

Thanks MK1
Thanks wilby for reminding me to look.

Maybe Larry Fishman should see that. hmmm
uh oh all the neighbors will have to have one.
:D

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 11, 2009, 04:44:51 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 11, 2009, 04:33:20 PM
Nope, didn't work.
I put the pos and the 1 side of the pick up on the one pin and
the other pickup wire on the other pin.

nothing.
I also tried the cfl which has been relieved of its case.
I also tried the 15w which is higher wattage but less than 20 of xee picture and happened to turn on more readily with my fuji.

Hey, anyone got a light?

Thanks MK1
Thanks wilby for reminding me to look.

Maybe Larry Fishman should see that. hmmm
uh oh all the neighbors will have to have one.
:D

jeanna

you crack me up girl ....

:D :D ;)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 11, 2009, 05:09:48 PM

@all

i made a drawing of the stark , why because he uses bemf , but really because of his automatic neon switch on the triac when the cap reaches 80 volts.

I can see some easy improvement like removing the led , maybe finding a bulb that could act like the neon at 12 or 24 volt , choosing the right size cap get a fast enough discharge to pulse a core at 12 or 24 volts or even 80 volts.

We can charge caps with secondaries and bemf.

Mark

Edit : Stroboscope trigger circuits

http://www.tkk.fi/Misc/Electronics/circuits/strobotrigger.html

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 11, 2009, 05:14:10 PM

I
am
smiling

Thank you xee and Hazens!
7watt fluoro tube
15 watt fluoro tube
no go on the cfl.

I needed some magnet action to make it turn on
Not the one that connects to pos, but just the pickup
and 100uF across battery rail
100nF (104k) across base resitor

yeay!!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 11, 2009, 05:18:23 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on June 11, 2009, 04:33:20 PM
Nope, didn't work.

I have over 50 years of experience in electronics and in all that time I have never found a case where two exactly the same circuits did not work the same. Usually there is something different if one works and the other does not. It is just a matter of finding the difference. If you want to work on finding the difference I will be glad to help you.

EDIT: You posted your success while I was posting this so I guess you will not need any help. Congratulations.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 11, 2009, 05:25:25 PM

@jeanna

Congratulation !!!!!!

You deserve it !

Well done ! :D

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 11, 2009, 05:28:05 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on June 11, 2009, 05:14:10 PM
I
am
smiling

:) :) :) :) I'm smiling too :) :) :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 11, 2009, 05:34:14 PM

Quote from: xee2 on June 11, 2009, 05:18:23 PM
@ jeanna
I will be glad to help you.

Thank you xee.
You have helped me a lot all along the way. And, I have always appreciated it.

I put 2 tiny neo magnets on the clip holding the pickup wire to the tube. That is what gave it the start it needed. I could then remove the magnets.

Hazens said he had 400v. I had 445v Hazens turned on without the magnets. I needed the magnets.
Those are the outstanding differences that I can still see.

Thank you again,

jeanna

Quote@jeanna

Congratulation !!!!!!

You deserve it !

Well done ! :D

Mark

Thank you too, Mark.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 11, 2009, 05:40:06 PM

@ jeana

Quote from: jeanna on June 11, 2009, 05:34:14 PM
Hazens said he had 400v.

He had 400 after the bridge so it was RMS which means his peak to peak was higher. You need more turns on your pickup coil because it takes more turns with a low permeability core.

EDIT: Whoops. It wasn't RMS. But you need more turns to get more voltage with your low permeability core. If you add more turns on you pickup coil you should be able to light tube without magnets.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 11, 2009, 05:45:53 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 11, 2009, 05:14:10 PM
I
am
smiling

Thank you xee and Hazens!
7watt fluoro tube
15 watt fluoro tube
no go on the cfl.

I needed some magnet action to make it turn on
Not the one that connects to pos, but just the pickup
and 100uF across battery rail
100nF (104k) across base resitor

yeay!!

jeanna

Great Job!!!!!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 11, 2009, 05:56:02 PM

Quote from: xee2 on June 11, 2009, 05:40:06 PM
@ jeana

He had 400 after the bridge so it was RMS which means his peak to peak was higher. You need more turns on your pickup coil because it takes more turns with a low permeability core.

Interesting that you added this.
I was about to reply thusly:
I realized just now that the volts went down to 400v when I added the 104 cap.
That cap had extinguished the light when I had tried it yesterday and when I was trying to make the exact copy today the scope was on the pickup wires. That is how I know it reduced the voltage to 400v.

So, in fact this is not a difference anymore.
Just the magnet starter.
edit

QuoteEDIT: Whoops. It wasn't RMS. But you need more turns to get more voltage with your low permeability core. If you add more turns on you pickup coil you should be able to light tube without magnets.

Oh, I see. I even do have room on this biggo for more turns.

This is an unknown u value. I got it from allelectronics before I ordered those very low permeability ones from cws.
I expect some more success with them, now, because I bet I have the formula...
end edit

It sings up a storm too.

Thank you.

@Altrez
Thank you.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on June 11, 2009, 06:22:20 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 11, 2009, 05:14:10 PM
I
am
smiling

Thank you xee and Hazens!
7watt fluoro tube
15 watt fluoro tube
no go on the cfl.

I needed some magnet action to make it turn on
Not the one that connects to pos, but just the pickup
and 100uF across battery rail
100nF (104k) across base resitor

yeay!!

jeanna

quick put a magnet inside the torroid!!!!! watch it spin from the magnetism in the torroid!! watch it make the light brighter!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 11, 2009, 07:24:03 PM

@ jeanna

You have demonstrated a real example of getting free energy from magnets. The tube would not light without the extra free energy from the magnets. Very good demonstration.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 11, 2009, 07:27:44 PM

@IST,
This might work.

Quote from: innovation_station on June 11, 2009, 09:35:13 AM
hummm

I MUST REMIND YOU NOW THIS SAME THING HAPPINED TO ME ... A WHILE B4 THE LAST ONE ONLY THEY BURNT OUT MY SCREEN ON MY OTHER LAPTOP ....

DO U KNOW WHY ... LOL

THINK ABOUT RINGINGGGG CRYSTALS MGAICLY ...

IF THEY DONT CARE LETS TALK QUANTUM COMUNICATIONS ...

OR SCLAR WAVE RING ... WANDS...

AND IF THEY STILL DONT CARE LETS GO ALL THE WAY TO BUILD A DEVICE THAT BURNS OFF CHEM TRAILS AND POKES A HOLE IN THE SH!T WEB ... USED FOR MIND CONTROL ... AND WILL ALLOW THE CONCISOUS RAYS TO ENTER OUR REALITY AND WAKEN HU-MAN MINDS ...

BETTER GO GET YOUR ARMOR.... ;)

In the good old days when TV was new, some people lived in a valley, and they couldn't get reception, so some bright spark put an ordinary TV antenna on the toop of the hill, added another TV aerial which pointed down into the valley.
Both aerials were connected by ladder 600 ohm flat ribbon down load wire, each aerial had a ballon at either end.

OK, whats to say the same thing carn't be done to stop scalor waves at your place or anyones place? Find out the frequencies they use, and bounce the sig back at the cloud, will it be at 180 degreese?

will it work, don't know, neva tried it, but I know if a 180 degree signal can null the incomeing one.

How to find the frequency, get a photo of the antennas making the problem, look at for a reference thing that you know what size it is, a part, a fitting, a door frame, then match this against the length of the aerial, use ham radio aerial tables to calculate the dimensions of the antennas.

I don't have the stuff or the knowledge to do this, its just theory but it just might work.
jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 11, 2009, 07:52:15 PM

@MK1

Hi Mark, Thanks for the 2 circuits, this is something I have been wanting to do for a long time, and I have the perfect opertunity.
Last monday I had to buy another battery for the car $180, a bit steep, so there went my electronics parts money, lol.

@All
How cold does it get in Australia? VERY COLD, it was BELOW 0 degreeze for the last 2 nights and more to come, brrrr. :)
Proof below, left a bowl of water outside overnight, got up at 7am, it was solid ice, by 9am it still was ice, now I gotta thaw out, the Reverse cycle airconditioner is on Heat Pump cycle and it can hardly keep up.

@Altrez
Get something like this to use on that power supply, see pic, its a Very Heavy Duty Bridge.

@Jeanna,
Well done with the puzzle, you must be Mensus
I not done it yet :(

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 11, 2009, 08:03:24 PM

Good idea AK

@xee,
That is a very cool insight about this.
thank you,

I need to take off for the evening
(@All, you may leave my garlands at the door.
I will be back in the morning to pick them up. ;) :) :D ;D )

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 11, 2009, 08:16:55 PM

@Jesus

Quote from: nievesoliveras on June 11, 2009, 11:43:04 AM
@innovationstation

Hi.
For a long time now I have been wondering what the letters (LOL) mean.
Pardon my ignorance, but what does those letters stand for?

Jesus

LOL means Lough Out Loud.
Another one is ROFL, ie Roll On the Floor Laughing

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 11, 2009, 08:34:24 PM

Quote from: electricme on June 11, 2009, 07:52:15 PM
@MK1

Hi Mark, Thanks for the 2 circuits, this is something I have been wanting to do for a long time, and I have the perfect opertunity.
Last monday I had to buy another battery for the car $180, a bit steep, so there went my electronics parts money, lol.

@All
How cold does it get in Australia? VERY COLD, it was BELOW 0 degreeze for the last 2 nights and more to come, brrrr. :)
Proof below, left a bowl of water outside overnight, got up at 7am, it was solid ice, by 9am it still was ice, now I gotta thaw out, the Reverse cycle airconditioner is on Heat Pump cycle and it can hardly keep up.

@Altrez
Get something like this to use on that power supply, see pic, its a Very Heavy Duty Bridge.

@Jeanna,
Well done with the puzzle, you must be Mensus
I not done it yet :(

jim

Thank you Jim! Can you recommend a variac that works with 110 single phase? I think with a good variac and that Diode bridge I can make it!

I want to adjust the DC from 30volts to 300 volts at 10 amps!

@all week 3 is coming up and I am still charging battery's :)

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 11, 2009, 08:57:02 PM

Jeanna:

Great job!! You finally did it! As I was reading the past 5 pages I kept wanting to post to you to use a neo to start the light but....you found that out by the time I got here. We have had 3 tornadoes touch down here and are under warnings for the next 4 hours so I might not be able to be on much but I wanted to congratulate you. Perserverence conquers all.

@ Jim:

Stay warm down there buddy.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on June 11, 2009, 09:10:36 PM

now maybe someone can try to enlighten me but if the neos are not moving and thus not inducing a current then what the heck are they doing thats assisting in lighting a light?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 11, 2009, 09:14:18 PM

@Jeanna,
Congrats lady, ;D you did it at last, my fluro is not as bright as yours, well done.
:D
If you hook that WC up, be careful with it, its got bite.
;)

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 11, 2009, 09:30:27 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 11, 2009, 05:14:10 PM
I
am
smiling

Thank you xee and Hazens!
7watt fluoro tube
15 watt fluoro tube
no go on the cfl.

I needed some magnet action to make it turn on
Not the one that connects to pos, but just the pickup
and 100uF across battery rail
100nF (104k) across base resitor

yeay!!

jeanna

We are smiling also Jeanna . Good going !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 11, 2009, 09:54:30 PM

@ Mk1

Quote from: Mk1 on June 11, 2009, 05:09:48 PM
i made a drawing of the stark , why because he uses bemf , but really because of his automatic neon switch on the triac when the cap reaches 80 volts.

Thanks. I am going to need something like that soon. But this circuit continues to drain battery after it stops charging cap so someone has to switch off battery when neon comes on.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on June 11, 2009, 10:19:38 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on June 11, 2009, 12:07:05 PM
LOL = LOTS OF LAUGH'S

Gadget

>>I learned awhile ago LOL = "Laugh Out Loud"
At least that's what I was told. There are probably a lot of those acronyms by now. Text messaging, you know.

BTW, (there's another = By The Way) , If I can survive in this town somehow, and I have the time, I certainly will test a few of the schematics I've downloaded or copied to see if they're as efficient as they say they could or should be.

--Lee

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Thaelin on June 11, 2009, 11:19:33 PM

Xee2:
Not sure if it will work in this setup but look at a zenier diode. They dont conduct until the rated voltage is reached. In this case it will reach it and dump and fall below again. Getting one for the voltage you need may be a pain. But then you might use a resistor in series with it to drop the voltage down. Just that the spikes may cause havoc with it just not sure.

thaelin

Quote from: xee2 on June 11, 2009, 09:54:30 PM
@ Mk1

Thanks. I am going to need something like that soon. But this circuit continues to drain battery after it stops charging cap so someone has to switch off battery when neon comes on.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 11, 2009, 11:32:11 PM

Quote from: xee2 on June 11, 2009, 09:54:30 PM
@ Mk1

Thanks. I am going to need something like that soon. But this circuit continues to drain battery after it stops charging cap so someone has to switch off battery when neon comes on.

Well i don't see a problem there the circuit keeps the secondary alive .

But explain what you mean ?

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 12, 2009, 01:10:38 AM

@All,

I was reading up in a diode web site that there is a certain point where ordinary diodes will begin to loose performance at high voltages and very high hz, at AC for example when the cycle ends, the diode is still open, it hasnt shut fast enough, so when the next pulse comes through, some of the next pulse flows backwards before the diode can shut off.

So there seems to be a point when we will have to switch over to use high switching diodes.

This will give us all more pulse for the energy, at least it won't be waisted.

Got to do some more reading up on this first though.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 12, 2009, 03:10:47 AM

@ Mk1

Quote from: Mk1 on June 11, 2009, 11:32:11 PM
Well i don't see a problem there

No problem, just needs watching.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 12, 2009, 12:33:48 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on June 11, 2009, 09:10:36 PM
now maybe someone can try to enlighten me but if the neos are not moving and thus not inducing a current then what the heck are they doing thats assisting in lighting a light?

Is it true that a magnet must be moving to conduct a current?

Anyway, even if that is true.
The assist happened when I added the magnet, which means it was moving.
The light went on as soon as it snapped into place.
I was then able to remove the magnet and the light remained on and as bright as before.

It makes me wonder how much lower the voltage could have been; or if the combo voltage frequency could have been much different.

@Bill
@Gadget
@Jim,

thanks.

@All, I have a comment that belongs at the thread
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?board=13.0 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?board=13.0)
It is about adding magnets to the earth.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 12, 2009, 03:46:31 PM

@gadget

I got something for you Resonant Frequency of Secondary Circuit , like used by the Tesla on his coil , if you match one with the jt resonant freq , could increase output creating a opposing field .

http://deepfriedneon.com/tesla_guide.html

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 12, 2009, 04:02:43 PM

deleted... was answer to an old, old post by mistake.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on June 12, 2009, 04:09:47 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 12, 2009, 12:33:48 PM
Is it true that a magnet must be moving to conduct a current?

Anyway, even if that is true.
The assist happened when I added the magnet, which means it was moving.
The light went on as soon as it snapped into place.
I was then able to remove the magnet and the light remained on and as bright as before.

It makes me wonder how much lower the voltage could have been; or if the combo voltage frequency could have been much different.

@Bill
@Gadget
@Jim,

thanks.

@All, I have a comment that belongs at the thread
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?board=13.0 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?board=13.0)
It is about adding magnets to the earth.

jeanna

congrats on getting it working!

what happens if you leave the magnet in place and turn the circuit on?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 12, 2009, 04:23:23 PM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on June 12, 2009, 04:09:47 PM

what happens if you leave the magnet in place and turn the circuit on?

Good question. I assumed that is what was done.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 12, 2009, 05:05:14 PM

Thanks Wilby,

It wouldn't turn on this morning.
I guess it is marginal.
I got it to turn on by having the magnets in place and plugging the battery in then holding one hand on the tube and the other hand on the magnet, until it lit and the light spread a bit, then I moved my hand up the tube to the other end and slowly let go; first the light then the magnet.

After about 10 more seconds the whine got higher in pitch.

This is the 15 watt grow light made in Hungary. It is a lot easier to start than the 5 watt made in China.

I am using a freshly recharged battery 1.35v and I will time the stay-on power today. With the fuji , it was 2 hours straight on an alkaline camera battery.

I will report back when the light goes out.

In order to get 100uF across the battery rails I put 2 47F in series. I could add another one. The jumper is right there. Should 150uF be better? I could even use one of those fuji caps if that would help.

I still do not get why, but xee said it helps to keep the power surge from slowing things down too much when the cap is there, or something like that.

I will finish running this timing test for now, now that it is back on.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 12, 2009, 05:59:50 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 12, 2009, 05:05:14 PM
In order to get 100uF across the battery rails I put 2 47F in series.

Two 47 uF in series is 23 uF twice the voltage. Two 47 uF in parallel is 94 uF at half voltage.

The battery cap generally is not needed unless battery drain is about 1 amp.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 12, 2009, 06:19:50 PM

Quote from: xee2 on June 12, 2009, 05:59:50 PM
Two 47 uF in series is 23 uF twice the voltage. Two 47 uF in parallel is 94 uF at half voltage.

The battery cap generally is not needed unless battery drain is about 1 amp.

I think I see. I did it backwards for getting more F. but...

Isn't it the need for more voltage to start up a fluoro that is the reason for the ballast etc?
I assumed that this was the reason Hazens used the 100uF cap in this spot; and that is why I added them in series.

This is a 2500maH battery, so I guess it will run for a bit.

What would a trigger circuit be?
Would it be something like these caps with a push button?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 12, 2009, 06:34:43 PM

@ jeanna

I think your guess that the voltage was marginal was probably correct. I still recommend adding more turns to the pickup coil. I think your problems will go away if you add at least another 100 turns.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on June 12, 2009, 06:36:51 PM

Quote from: Thaelin on June 11, 2009, 11:19:33 PM
Not sure if it will work in this setup but look at a zenier diode. They dont conduct until the rated voltage is reached. In this case it will reach it and dump and fall below again. Getting one for the voltage you need may be a pain. But then you might use a resistor in series with it to drop the voltage down. Just that the spikes may cause havoc with it just not sure.

a zener diode does not work quite like you describe it.

i posted an experiment with a 1N227 14.5 volts / 400 mW a while back.

they start conducting before their rated voltage.
the more the voltage is high, the more they conduct.

zener diodes must not be confused with avalanche diodes.
finding an avalanche diode for the specific voltage you need might be difficule as they are usually used to supress transient surges.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on June 12, 2009, 06:55:34 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 12, 2009, 05:05:14 PM
I got it to turn on by having the magnets in place and plugging the battery in then holding one hand on the tube and the other hand on the magnet, until it lit and the light spread a bit, then I moved my hand up the tube to the other end and slowly let go; first the light then the magnet.

a magnet, hummm...

bring a carpet near where you experiment.
rub your feet on it and touch the neon tube while your jt is running and when your tube does not start.

my opignion is that the magnet is not having the effect that are attributed to them while still having an effect.
the effect i am thinking of is more about static charges then magnetic.

i am not saying that the mag field of a magnet as no effect on the neons.
i am questionning myself since i know the same effect can be obtain with something else then a magnet.
a piece of plastic, even a sheet of paper, can do the same.

the carpet experiment can be done in the dark with not power apply to the tube.
it will glow while you rub.
and it will even glow for a bit longer, after you stop rubbing.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 12, 2009, 07:39:52 PM

@xee,

QuoteI think your guess that the voltage was marginal was probably correct. I still recommend adding more turns to the pickup coil. I think your problems will go away if you add at least another 100 turns.

This is probably correct, but it is not an easy thing/ not possible to 'add' turns to an MK1 type pickup.

I will think about doing another with more turns, but later.

@theNOP

I have a wimhurst machine and it barely glowed this fluoro light, so, I am not sure this is the answer either.

It is surely involved, but the voltage was very high passing through the tube. I could feel it on my fingertips. Perhaps the magnet delivers a spark in the right way to switch the light on.

It has been 3 hours and the light is still on in just the same way as before.

:D
jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 12, 2009, 08:22:18 PM

@all

Really nice site , with basic magnetic and electric laws , with animation , so nicely done worth a look , its like a 101 experiment book .

http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/electromag/index.html

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Thaelin on June 12, 2009, 11:04:09 PM

Thanks Nop:
Was not sure if it would. That clears that up then.

thay

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on June 12, 2009, 11:24:06 PM

xee2 said:

Quote
...Two 47 uF in parallel is 94 uF at half voltage. ...

@xee2,
Not to be critical, but I might be missing something?

If the positive and negative rails maintain the same voltage, the voltage across the capacitors should be the rail voltage with the capacitance doubled as you said?

If they were in series, the capacitance is half, but voltage the same across each positive and negative terminal, doubling the tolerance for both combined, which would be reasonable to me. You did say or imply that? I do agree with that part, then, if you did.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 13, 2009, 01:09:16 AM

@ the_big_m_in_ok

Quote from: the_big_m_in_ok on June 12, 2009, 11:24:06 PM
xee2 said:
@xee2,
Not to be critical, but I might be missing something?

If the positive and negative rails maintain the same voltage, the voltage across the capacitors should be the rail voltage with the capacitance doubled as you said?

If they were in series, the capacitance is half, but voltage the same across each positive and negative terminal, doubling the tolerance for both combined, which would be reasonable to me. You did say or imply that? I do agree with that part, then, if you did.

Yep. I got carried away with a quick answer.

It is the voltage rating of the pair of capacitors compared to the voltage rating of a single capacitor. Two caps in series will handle twice the voltage of a single cap before blowing up.

For parallel caps the voltage at which they blow up stays the same. It does not get cut in half.

Thanks.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 13, 2009, 03:51:35 AM

@ jeanna

You might try using diode and cap as in following. This sometimes helps light tube. Also connecting one side of pickup coil to either + or - of battery sometimes helps (need to experiment on which side).

NOTE: this circuit is able to put out more power than Fuji board with only 1/5 the battery drain.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 13, 2009, 08:20:41 AM

@jeanna

3 hours is great keep up the good work. I will still get the scope stuff to you from my Toroid I have been working non stop!

@all

I have a question that relates back to what a friend said to me yesterday at work. I do not know if this is true or not. But he said that once I reach a certain voltage / frequency point with my JT it will stop working because of the small gauge magnetic wire?

And that if I wanted to really push up the Current / Volts / Frequency I needed to re think my design. I did some basic research and I believe he is right. At a point the mag wire will bleed over and the higher the frequency seems to play an effect on the wire as well.

Using the LCR meter showed me the inductance of the wire. Well if you move up to 400 turns around 40 feet of wire the inductance gets really high. Thus you can get more Voltage with larger pickup coils true but at what cost in efficiency of the JT? How much harder is the JT having to work to push that huge pickup coil?

I can light 1 CFL from my big toroid from 1 AA battery the way I do it is with 1 fuji board attached to a pickup coil that has small turns less voltage just enough that will charge a small battery to the point that the fuji will turn on for testing.

It would seem to me that 6 smaller pickup coils on the toroid will give better use of the power produced from the JT?

So that is what my test is going to be for today. 6 pickup coils @ 2 volts rectified DC for 12 volts total. each running into a Cap that runs into a battery that then in turn goes to a Fuji board.

At that point I will attach a CFL to each FUJI and fire them up! I am sure this will work as I have tested the concept. When I have it done I am going to mount it on a nice panel and use it for mood lighting in my lab / kitchen :)

Here is a hand drawn pic of the concept.

Take care!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on June 13, 2009, 10:21:38 AM

Quote from: xee2 on June 13, 2009, 03:51:35 AM
@ jeanna

You might try using diode and cap as in following. This sometimes helps light tube. Also connecting one side of pickup coil to either + or - of battery sometimes helps (need to experiment on which side).

NOTE: this circuit is able to put out more power than Fuji board with only 1/5 the battery drain.

Lady @jeanna

Congratulations!!!

@innovationstation
Thank you.

@electricme
Thank you.

@all
There are new break throughs.
I will wait till everything gets stable to try one of the new ways of lighting a cfl.
Right now it is still changing too quick.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 13, 2009, 01:14:40 PM

Quote from: xee2 on June 13, 2009, 03:51:35 AM
@ jeanna

You might try using diode and cap as in following. This sometimes helps light tube. Also connecting one side of pickup coil to either + or - of battery sometimes helps (need to experiment on which side).

NOTE: this circuit is able to put out more power than Fuji board with only 1/5 the battery drain.

Thank you xee.

I thought someone, probably you, had the diode/cap information to do this.
I will try it in a little while.

@jesus,
thank you

@all
I had to go out last evening so I am not aware of how long the light continued to glow after I left the house, BUT

I left the house at 6 and I had got the light to start at 1:45 = 4 1/4 hours

So, xee2, this IS far more efficient than the fuji board. 4 hours 15 minutes plus more...
This is equivalent to 2 hours on the fuji board.

(The fuji drained the battery in 2 hours then after recovery one more then after recovery a total of one more. = 4, but only 2 on that first round)

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 13, 2009, 01:22:40 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 13, 2009, 01:14:40 PM
Thank you xee.

I thought someone, probably you, had the diode/cap information to do this.
I will try it in a little while.

@jesus,
thank you

@all
I had to go out last evening so I am not aware of how long the light continued to glow after I left the house, BUT

I left the house at 6 and I had got the light to start at 1:45 = 4 1/4 hours

So, xee2, this IS far more efficient than the fuji board. 4 hours 15 minutes plus more...
This is equivalent to 2 hours on the fuji board.

(The fuji drained the battery in 2 hours then after recovery one more then after recovery a total of one more. = 4, but only 2 on that first round)

thank you,

jeanna

@jeanna

How are you moding your fuji boards? I am seeing 10 hours of light with a 13 Watt CFL. And it wil light 140 leds for 24 hours.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on June 13, 2009, 01:44:35 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 12, 2009, 07:39:52 PM
I have a wimhurst machine and it barely glowed this fluoro light, so, I am not sure this is the answer either.

It is surely involved, but the voltage was very high passing through the tube. I could feel it on my fingertips. Perhaps the magnet delivers a spark in the right way to switch the light on.

i did not meant that static can fully light neons.
what i meant is that almost any charged object/materials can have the same "starting" effect as what you saw with the magnet.

Quote from: altrez on June 13, 2009, 08:20:41 AM
I have a question that relates back to what a friend said to me yesterday at work. I do not know if this is true or not. But he said that once I reach a certain voltage / frequency point with my JT it will stop working because of the small gauge magnetic wire?

your friend is right to some extent.

the effect on the voltage, of adding more turns, will get lower and lower with each additionnal turn, pass a certain point.
further pass that point, it will start having a reversed effect on the voltage.
that is if you have a fixed frequency, even if you add more turns.

but.
up to a certain point in frequencies, the coupling of a given coil, is inductive with "parasitic" capacitive coupling.
read parasitic as = very very very small.
pass that point, the coupling start to be more capacitive then inductive.
and if you go really high in frequency, the coupling will be only capacitive, with "parasitic" inductive coupling.
at that point, the turn ratio is not meaningfull anymore.
the capacitance of the coils will take over as the mean of transfering energy from one coil to the other.

@Thaelin
you are welcome.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 13, 2009, 01:54:49 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on June 13, 2009, 01:44:35 PM
i did not meant that static can fully light neons.
what i meant is that almost any charged object/materials can have the same "starting" effect as what you saw with the magnet.

your friend is right to some extent.

the effect on the voltage, of adding more turns, will get lower and lower with each additionnal turn, pass a certain point.
further pass that point, it will start having a reversed effect on the voltage.
that is if you have a fixed frequency, even if you add more turns.

but.
up to a certain point in frequencies, the coupling of a given coil, is inductive with "parasitic" capacitive coupling.
read parasitic as = very very very small.
pass that point, the coupling start to be more capacitive then inductive.
and if you go really high in frequency, the coupling will be only capacitive, with "parasitic" inductive coupling.
at that point, the turn ratio is not meaningfull anymore.
the capacitance of the coils will take over as the mean of transfering energy from one coil to the other.

@Thaelin
you are welcome.

Thank you so much for explaining that to me.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 13, 2009, 02:20:57 PM

Quote from: altrez on June 13, 2009, 08:20:41 AM
@jeanna

3 hours is great keep up the good work. I will still get the scope stuff to you from my Toroid I have been working non stop!

@all

I have a question that relates back to what a friend said to me yesterday at work. I do not know if this is true or not. But he said that once I reach a certain voltage / frequency point with my JT it will stop working because of the small gauge magnetic wire?

And that if I wanted to really push up the Current / Volts / Frequency I needed to re think my design. I did some basic research and I believe he is right. At a point the mag wire will bleed over and the higher the frequency seems to play an effect on the wire as well.

Using the LCR meter showed me the inductance of the wire. Well if you move up to 400 turns around 40 feet of wire the inductance gets really high. Thus you can get more Voltage with larger pickup coils true but at what cost in efficiency of the JT? How much harder is the JT having to work to push that huge pickup coil?

I can light 1 CFL from my big toroid from 1 AA battery the way I do it is with 1 fuji board attached to a pickup coil that has small turns less voltage just enough that will charge a small battery to the point that the fuji will turn on for testing.

It would seem to me that 6 smaller pickup coils on the toroid will give better use of the power produced from the JT?

So that is what my test is going to be for today. 6 pickup coils @ 2 volts rectified DC for 12 volts total. each running into a Cap that runs into a battery that then in turn goes to a Fuji board.

At that point I will attach a CFL to each FUJI and fire them up! I am sure this will work as I have tested the concept. When I have it done I am going to mount it on a nice panel and use it for mood lighting in my lab / kitchen :)

Here is a hand drawn pic of the concept.

Take care!

-Altrez

Altrez

I think you might be right about the inductance going to high with very long thin wires . Most of my big coils have put out far less voltage than I expected .
If you are right ... ......one way around this might be to raise the permeability of the core ....... Not exactlly something you can do on the fly with a toroid ....but with my LMs it is easy .

I think your idea of using a bunch of smaller pickups rather than one big one is a good way around the problem too . .
It might work great to rectify the output of each coil ......but I agree with Jeanna ....keep it AC whenever you can .

I am looking forward to seeing your results

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 13, 2009, 02:51:44 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 06, 2009, 12:09:43 AM
@all

MK1 this is great, I have been thinking of a very similar idea. Have you made it yet?

@all

Well after going on vacation for 2 weeks there is a lot of reading to catch up on but it seems like everyone is making great progress!

Great work everybody ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 13, 2009, 03:29:05 PM

Quote from: free on June 13, 2009, 02:32:33 PM
hi all,

ima new here...
lots of info on the JT here...so much ima kinda get lost in it.
i have got a Fuji circuit board and was trying 2 get it run some light bulp but no luck till now.
my board is 1 that use a AAA battery...i did use 1 pic that i found here with some info about the connection needed 2 make 4 it 2 run but still no luck :(

here r both pics...the top 1 is from this forum and the bottom 1 is mine...couldnt get a closer pic 4 mine.

when i switch it on i still hear the squiking sound and the Cap get filled till about 275volts
doesnt this suppose 2 happend? afther the circuit have been altered?
and when i switch it on i get zero volts on the + and - on the light connection?

thnx 4 any info on this...:)

Peace!

V2DAY

Welcome!!! We are glad to have you here :) Can you get an AC reading from the fuji and post it please?

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 13, 2009, 03:44:07 PM

@ free

Your board looks different from the ones I was using so I can not give detailed help. But, you should be able to connect neon to where the large cap was connected and then just find out how to jumper the power switch that turns the camera on. Good luck.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 13, 2009, 04:14:57 PM

Quote from: xee2 on June 11, 2009, 03:09:04 PM
@ jeanna

Why don't you try to EXACTLY duplicate a circuit that was shown to work. You always seem to want to try something different instead of doing what is known to work. I think you have all of the parts that hazens1 used except maybe the TIP31, but a 2N3055 will work as a substitute. And someone said the TIP31 was available at RS.

I agree and I am using the Hazens design with a 2N3055 and I think it works better then the TIP31. You can do it Jeanna!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 13, 2009, 05:09:14 PM

Hi free,
Welcome,

I think you might fry your led in that spot.
There is probably enough voltage there to light 50 to 100 leds in series.

When I was playing with the fuji I used that spot to light a fluoro tube.
I also lit a string of leds and a second tube all at once.
I believe it was from that connection also.
That is a very powerful place on the fuji board.

have fun,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 13, 2009, 05:20:15 PM

Quote from: stprue on June 13, 2009, 04:14:57 PM
I agree and I am using the Hazens design with a 2N3055 and I think it works better then the TIP31. You can do it Jeanna!

Welcome back, stprue,

As you will see in a few pages, I did! I used the MK1 design. And to note the advice from xee2, When you make a copy instead of going up 60 turns etc, go up 85 turns. That should give you the extra voltage to make it easier than mine.

Note the turns I used. It took 13 turns on the base coil and 3 turns on the collector coil. This is opposite the way I was connecting the primary, but it is really much better.

I may make one as a MK2 instead of the longer 85. It will probably take just as much room on the toroid as the 85 turns up...does. I am still thinking about it.

The newbie wire spools drop right through the center. I used red 24 gauge newbie wire for my "biggo". (a reminder-- that is not the radio shack 30 gauge wire, it is 24 gauge)

It really sings a loud tune too.

welcome back.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 13, 2009, 05:24:16 PM

Quote from: free on June 13, 2009, 05:16:00 PM

it... so it can run a 40watt Tube.

can some1 point me in the right direction 4 this circuit hes using..many thnx 4 this

It is a lot to read, but the first 135 pages of this thread have all the variations.

But, Pirate (Bill) is making a whole thread that only has the directions and diagrams for doing these special things.
It should be there.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6942.0 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6942.0)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 13, 2009, 05:58:32 PM

@ free

Your circuit as it is will light a 40 watt tube. Just put the tube where your LED and resistor are. One end of tube to one side of large capacitor and the other side of tube to the other side of the large capacitor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 13, 2009, 07:01:07 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 13, 2009, 05:20:15 PM
Welcome back, stprue,

As you will see in a few pages, I did! I used the MK1 design. And to note the advice from xee2, When you make a copy instead of going up 60 turns etc, go up 85 turns. That should give you the extra voltage to make it easier than mine.

Note the turns I used. It took 13 turns on the base coil and 3 turns on the collector coil. This is opposite the way I was connecting the primary, but it is really much better.

I may make one as a MK2 instead of the longer 85. It will probably take just as much room on the toroid as the 85 turns up...does. I am still thinking about it.

The newbie wire spools drop right through the center. I used red 24 gauge newbie wire for my "biggo". (a reminder-- that is not the radio shack 30 gauge wire, it is 24 gauge)

It really sings a loud tune too.

welcome back.

jeanna

I see now, and thank you for the welcome back my vaca was great and well deserved. I think tomorrow I will make a biggo or a different design I have been thinking about. I will post my results! I just finished soldering my coil that puts out about 370v +- but I must have either melted a component or connected something wrong. I have found that if you can't figure out a mistake you need to step back from it for a while and then revisit. Anyways I cant wait to catch up!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 13, 2009, 07:03:40 PM

This is it, and I will get it to work!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 13, 2009, 07:40:21 PM

I finally made a Jesus charger .

:)

I am short on time ..... tonight I will try to get a picture or 2 posted tomorow

I am running it with one of my LM1s the transistor is a 3055 it works great .
Powering my 60 LED array it almost holds its own with a battery draw of .29 A

I lowered the battery draw to .16 A at first both the battery and the output seemed to be going up ...... but then they both started going down slowly ........very slowly ......but still going down .
I am thinking that this helps out in relation to how hard the circuit is being driven ....

Interesting ................. just playing with it a little shows that adding just one coil for flyback and feedback helps much more than without the Jesus charger .
Adding the secondary of another LM in series with the load actually dropped my voltage a volt ....... adding the primary of that LM in parralell with the battery boosted my output voltage about 20 V

This is not going to charge with just one coil for flyback . but 3 was the lowest number I have gotten to charge ..... The LEDs are brighter than without it too .

The output voltage keeps climing but the battery voltage is going down ......slpwly ....I wonder if it is stepping up the volts and not providing enough amps .
This thing looks like a voltage doubler to me ......I wonder if it could be used between my flyback coils maybe that would boost my voltage enough to light a floro .HHHhhhmmm probably not a good idea ...... the cap I used is only rated for 250 V

Jesus
Did you try other sizes of caps between the diodes ?
Your drawing shows a 104K I used a 1uF because it was what I had right here .

I just tried adding another 1uF to the charger .....did not notice any change .
I put it across the battery .......and gained about 30 V
My array is now running at 224 V ........that is as high as I have ever seen it ( 84 V is normal )
:)

This must be very low current ...... I tried a floro ......it didn;t light and only got up to 240V
I tried my christmas tree lights LEDs ....not even a flicker ...... the fuji circuit powered these lights pretty well /
The voltage went up to 300 V for a second ....I really thought that they would be bright .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on June 13, 2009, 08:09:25 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 13, 2009, 07:40:21 PM
I finally made a Jesus charger .

:)

I am short on time ..... tonight I will try to get a picture or 2 posted tomorow

I am running it with one of my LM1s the transistor is a 3055 it works great .
Powering my 60 LED array it almost holds its own with a battery draw of .29 A

I lowered the battery draw to .16 A at first both the battery and the output seemed to be going up ...... but then they both started going down slowly ........very slowly ......but still going down .
I am thinking that this helps out in relation to how hard the circuit is being driven ....

Interesting ................. just playing with it a little shows that adding just one coil for flyback and feedback helps much more than without the Jesus charger .
Adding the secondary of another LM in series with the load actually dropped my voltage a volt ....... adding the primary of that LM in parralell with the battery boosted my output voltage about 20 V

This is not going to charge with just one coil for flyback . but 3 was the lowest number I have gotten to charge ..... The LEDs are brighter than without it too .

The output voltage keeps climing but the battery voltage is going down ......slpwly ....I wonder if it is stepping up the volts and not providing enough amps .
This thing looks like a voltage doubler to me ......I wonder if it could be used between my flyback coils maybe that would boost my voltage enough to light a floro .HHHhhhmmm probably not a good idea ...... the cap I used is only rated for 250 V

Quote
Jesus
Did you try other sizes of caps between the diodes ?
Your drawing shows a 104K I used a 1uF because it was what I had right here .

I tried also from 0.005 to 103k. They all work, but the best performance was with the 104k from RS. It is a green square ceramic capacitor.
The trick lies on the base resistor. Put the best variable resistor you can get there and find the sweet spot.
There is a problem with that circuit though, it can be disturbed easily by any movement of the parts. Even it is disturbed if you put it under a table lamp. It can go up a lot, then down slowly.
Lately I have been not able to make it to stay on the charging state for days as the original one.

Quote
I just tried adding another 1uF to the charger .....did not notice any change .
I put it across the battery .......and gained about 30 V
My array is now running at 224 V ........that is as high as I have ever seen it ( 84 V is normal )
:)

This must be very low current ...... I tried a floro ......it didn;t light and only got up to 240V
I tried my christmas tree lights LEDs ....not even a flicker ...... the fuji circuit powered these lights pretty well /
The voltage went up to 300 V for a second ....I really thought that they would be bright .

gary

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 13, 2009, 08:13:34 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on June 13, 2009, 01:44:35 PM
the effect on the voltage, of adding more turns, will get lower and lower with each additionnal turn, pass a certain point.
further pass that point, it will start having a reversed effect on the voltage.
that is if you have a fixed frequency, even if you add more turns.
...

Hi theNOP,

I would like to say again that there is a reciprocal relationship between the voltage and frequency. If everything else remains unchanged, and you force the frequency to stay the same then doing whatever you do to the make the voltage go higher, will be stifled by having the frequency be the same.

xee2 just posted a successful high voltage circuit that lights a fluoro for him, and look at the frequency.

400Hz !!

If xee had been forcing the frequency to remain the same, his voltage could not have been raised to HV to light a fluoro tube. (At other times that same toroid has rung at between 91.6KHz to 1.8KHz)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on June 13, 2009, 08:20:19 PM

@all

There was this circuit that @mk1 posted here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg185652#msg185652

I took it and because it is almost the same as the self charger I composed. I changed it so instead of charging another battery or cap, it feedsback to the source.
I do not have the SCR needed to try it, but if anyone has all the parts at hand and want to try it, here is the graphical schematic.
The caps does not need to be too high on voltage for the test.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 13, 2009, 08:39:57 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on June 13, 2009, 08:09:25 PM
...
There is a problem with that circuit though, it can be disturbed easily by any movement of the parts. Even it is disturbed if you put it under a table lamp. It can go up a lot, then down slowly....

Jesus

Hi jesus,
You are describing what happened to me with the biggo after I was finished working with it.
I had everything just right, then moved it a tiny bit, and it seemed to go off.
This happened over and over again.
I ended up changing the pot for another one and it was all right. (for a while)
A while back Gadget shared a theory about the wiper being necessary for his special fuji mod because when he used the standard fixed resistor it didn't work.
I do not know if he still thinks this, but in any case, there could be a tiny capacitance or rather spark that jumps from wiper to resistor that makes these toroid things come alive.

I had some "trouble" with a pot way back when I was doing the adjustments the way MK1 does with a diode bridge and a cap and a single turn pot.
It was really in the way for me at that time, so I remember it well.
I blamed the single turn and bought a precision pot and all of them continue to act the same way.
There is a similarity here and it may not be bad components or bad connections.
In some of the parts of our circuits we have either very high voltage or very high frequency.

@all,
It might be worthwhile for everyone to make note of both the frequency and the voltage in your experiments so we can start looking at the patterns that arise.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on June 13, 2009, 09:44:10 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 13, 2009, 08:13:34 PM
Quotethe effect on the voltage, of adding more turns, will get lower and lower with each additionnal turn, pass a certain point.
further pass that point, it will start having a reversed effect on the voltage.
that is if you have a fixed frequency, even if you add more turns.
I would like to say again that there is a reciprocal relationship between the voltage and frequency. If everything else remains unchanged, and you force the frequency to stay the same then doing whatever you do to the make the voltage go higher, will be stifled by having the frequency be the same.

xee2 just posted a successful high voltage circuit that lights a fluoro for him, and look at the frequency.

400Hz !!

If xee had been forcing the frequency to remain the same, his voltage could not have been raised to HV to light a fluoro tube. (At other times that same toroid has rung at between 91.6KHz to 1.8KHz)

i know you must be confused by this as with a jt the frequency will be changing with any modification you will make to it.
a bjt with a pickup coil is not the perfect setup to learn electronic and its components behaviors.
in short, the fact that the frequency is changing with any change you make to the jt is hidding to you how things in a jt are really working.
the measurements you are taking are not for only one factor at a time.
they are always for 2 or more factors changes.

you will see the above quoted statement happening if you were to trigger the jt differently.
ex: a frequency generator connected to a transformer(jt with pickup) or a simple inductance(bjt).
a transistor, used as a switch, connected to a transformer is the same as a jt with a pickup coil.

if you are using an other way to trigger the transistor, a second "primary" coil, we call it the base's coil, we could also call it the trigger coil, is not be needed.
and if you were not to use the transformer secondary, you would have a bjt with the sole difference being the way the transistor is being triggered.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 13, 2009, 09:51:54 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on June 13, 2009, 08:09:25 PM
I tried also from 0.005 to 103k. They all work, but the best performance was with the 104k from RS. It is a green square ceramic capacitor.
The trick lies on the base resistor. Put the best variable resistor you can get there and find the sweet spot.
There is a problem with that circuit though, it can be disturbed easily by any movement of the parts. Even it is disturbed if you put it under a table lamp. It can go up a lot, then down slowly.
Lately I have been not able to make it to stay on the charging state for days as the original one.

Jesus

Jesus

Thanks for replying

Just a few more questions

Did you try anything higher than 104K
I am assuming you these caps are pF

When did you last get your circuit to charge well?
Was it before you found Improvement 2 ?
It is my experience that a pulsing DC charges better than a steady DC .

Are you still set up on a breadboard ?
I had trouble with stability alot when using breadboards .
So far mine seems pretty stable ......but it is soldered together .

gary

Edit

I am trying to add a couple of pictures
The first is my board with my 3055
The heatsink was with my first 3055 I do not really need it .........yet.

The second is my Jesus charger add on .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on June 13, 2009, 10:48:44 PM

@jeanna

You asked me something on this link:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg184056#msg184056

I answered it on this one:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg184064#msg184064

I say this just to keep the conversation syncronization. Maybe this information can help somehow.

Quote from: jeanna on June 13, 2009, 08:39:57 PM
Hi jesus,
You are describing what happened to me with the biggo after I was finished working with it.
I had everything just right, then moved it a tiny bit, and it seemed to go off.
This happened over and over again.
I ended up changing the pot for another one and it was all right. (for a while)
A while back Gadget shared a theory about the wiper being necessary for his special fuji mod because when he used the standard fixed resistor it didn't work.
I do not know if he still thinks this, but in any case, there could be a tiny capacitance or rather spark that jumps from wiper to resistor that makes these toroid things come alive.

I had some "trouble" with a pot way back when I was doing the adjustments the way MK1 does with a diode bridge and a cap and a single turn pot.
It was really in the way for me at that time, so I remember it well.
I blamed the single turn and bought a precision pot and all of them continue to act the same way.
There is a similarity here and it may not be bad components or bad connections.
In some of the parts of our circuits we have either very high voltage or very high frequency.
...
jeanna

I was wondering if it was a spirit inside my electronic parts, but it seems that is something normal.
Thank you.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 13, 2009, 10:49:25 PM

Quote from: free on June 13, 2009, 10:15:51 PM
i couldnt light me 30watt tube becoz it use a sort of Jumpstarter.(see pic)
just connecting the 2 wires from the poles of the Cap 2 the tube don work :(

is there a way 2 connect a tube without this Jumpstarter?

Connect directly to tube.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 13, 2009, 10:54:30 PM

Quote from: free on June 13, 2009, 10:15:51 PM
i have messured it again with a new AAA battery...and it went above 1000volt...my multimeter dont go higher than 1000v.

thnx 4 any responce on me questions

take care & Peace!
V2DAY

btw...ima trying 2 make a JT circuit, only transistors i have r TIP3055, NPN/PNP-21193/21194..r these any good 2 use? many thnx

Hi free,

I am sorry to say I believe you are using the wrong fuji circuit.
I believe I got the closest with that AAA one, but no one was able to make the fuji AAA circuit work. I got it to turn on but only if I touched it. It stayed on for 5 seconds then went out. It just does not produce enough voltage probably.
The one to use has a AA in it and a black push button for charging.
My guess is that yours has a green slide button for charging??

===
I think the best way to start making a joule thief is to get a 2N3904 or 2N2222. They are really good at making a circuit that works right away.
Once you have had one work, then make others in other ways.

Well, that is my approach. It may not be yours.

Have you watched the youtube video ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTAqGKt64WM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTAqGKt64WM)
this is how I made my first one before I came here.

Where are you living?
Is that an italian accent? ;)

It might be easier to help you if we know what country you are living in.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on June 13, 2009, 11:07:03 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 13, 2009, 09:51:54 PM
Jesus

Thanks for replying

Just a few more questions

Did you try anything higher than 104K
I am assuming you these caps are pF

When did you last get your circuit to charge well?
Was it before you found Improvement 2 ?
It is my experience that a pulsing DC charges better than a steady DC .

Are you still set up on a breadboard ?
I had trouble with stability alot when using breadboards .
So far mine seems pretty stable ......but it is soldered together .

I tried also 473k and 474k

By the way
104k = 0.1uf = 100000pf
103k = 0.01uf = 10000pf
...
474k = 0.47uf = 470000pf
473k = 0.047uf = 47000pf

The last time my circuit worked well was two days ago. It seems like if it were a spirit playing inside the circuit sometimes, or maybe it is that the toroid enter into resonance and then stop.

I do not have an oscilloscope or any fancy meter to help me on this quest.
That is why I cannot trap the charging state.

I am still using breadboards. I cannot solder the parts because I use them on different experiments. I store the schematic of what I did and sometimes some explanation of how I did it.

Improvement 2 is used only to run the pulse motor, it does not make any difference on the charge output. Without it the motor gets slow, with it the pulse motor goes faster.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 13, 2009, 11:42:13 PM

jesus,
I am going to be told I am confused about the joule thief again. oh well. so be it! ;) :D.

If there is a very tiny spark in the circuit caused by something like hi voltage flyback/emf, or high frequency hivoltage back emf, then it could bleed off the voltage in the way that adding a neon light in strategic places would.

OR

It could add a little more by sparking in the right place and time.

There is little chance I could design something to do this or to not do this, but it makes good sense to me.

I know very few people here have read the tesla lectures that taught me so much. I am not sure people would read them if I went to the trouble to make a good enough copy for download. It is a bit of trouble.

I say things I got from reading the lectures, and some people think I don't know what I am saying.
I don't,
but since it is coming from tesla, I trust he does.

He had to put his "disruptive discharger" into oil that was boiled out to remove all the oxygen from it because only in that extreme environment could he stop the tiny sparks from occurring.

We know tesla used 100k herz and 100k volts, but in these lectures he talks of using 5k and 10k Hz and calls that high frequency. These lectures put a lot of things into perspective.

A lot of the words contribute to things we no longer need like a good light bulb and a transistor, but it is very informative. I wish more people would read these lectures.

@jesus, it may even be that when the humidity is high you have better results because these sparks cannot happen.
Or the opposite because the sparks are serving a purpose.

maybe spirits are sparks! ;D

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on June 13, 2009, 11:58:34 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 13, 2009, 11:42:13 PM
...
@jesus, it may even be that when the humidity is high you have better results because these sparks cannot happen.
Or the opposite because the sparks are serving a purpose.

maybe spirits are sparks! ;D

jeanna

Thank you Lady @jeanna !
You are right it could be related to the weather humidity or lack off. Also as you said, maybe the spirits are sparks.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 13, 2009, 11:58:47 PM

@all

This is a video i have seen one year ago , and never forgot about it , i am not sure why , but this Am radio builder found ultra low freq when playing with the antenna core , he show at least 2 freq , that are probably not human made , maybe the wheel it self, or solar wind maybe earth magnetic flux , any how it show on a scope , maybe that is what makes the air and earth battery work and maybe the tpu . Or maybe man made tesla old experiment or maybe some harp player.

Anyway its worth a look , to see things that keep me up at night . :) :'(

Mark

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQzsShRXvWw

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 14, 2009, 12:34:20 AM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on June 13, 2009, 11:07:03 PM
I tried also 473k and 474k

By the way
104k = 0.1uf = 100000pf
103k = 0.01uf = 10000pf
...
474k = 0.47uf = 470000pf
473k = 0.047uf = 47000pf

The last time my circuit worked well was two days ago. It seems like if it were a spirit playing inside the circuit sometimes, or maybe it is that the toroid enter into resonance and then stop.

I do not have an oscilloscope or any fancy meter to help me on this quest.
That is why I cannot trap the charging state.

I am still using breadboards. I cannot solder the parts because I use them on different experiments. I store the schematic of what I did and sometimes some explanation of how I did it.

Improvement 2 is used only to run the pulse motor, it does not make any difference on the charge output. Without it the motor gets slow, with it the pulse motor goes faster.

Jesus

Jesus

I think if you solder up at least a few parts that you can use alot your stabilty will improve .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 14, 2009, 01:27:53 AM

Quote from: altrez on June 13, 2009, 01:22:40 PM
@jeanna
How are you moding your fuji boards? I am seeing 10 hours of light with a 13 Watt CFL.

-Altrez

Hi Altrez,
I am not doing that anymore. I wanted to do the deal with a hand wound toroid and not rely on a manufactured product, so, I still have 1 unchanged in any way and one that has a blown part, but the motivation is not there. Are you using gadget's mod? I could make one of mine better using that mod of his.

QuoteAnd it wil light 140 leds for 24 hours.

Yes, 24 hours is what you will drain from the battery because the transistor is there. The leds take so little that you are pretty much down to the transistor use.

@Gary,
nice pics.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 14, 2009, 01:35:30 AM

Quote from: jeanna on May 24, 1970, 09:47:50 PM
Hi free,

I am sorry to say I believe you are using the wrong fuji circuit.
I believe I got the closest with that AAA one, but no one was able to make the fuji AAA circuit work[/glow]. I got it to turn on but only if I touched it. It stayed on for 5 seconds then went out. It just does not produce enough voltage probably.
The one to use has a AA in it and a black push button for charging.
My guess is that yours has a green slide button for charging??

===
I think the best way to start making a joule thief is to get a 2N3904 or 2N2222. They are really good at making a circuit that works right away.
Once you have had one work, then make others in other ways.

Well, that is my approach. It may not be yours.

Have you watched the youtube video ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTAqGKt64WM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTAqGKt64WM)
this is how I made my first one before I came here.

Where are you living?
Is that an italian accent? ;)

It might be easier to help you if we know what country you are living in.

jeanna

Jeanna you must have miss a lot of the post i did . I have mods for all three Fuji Circuits and the aaa is brighter than the aa version . I can mod any camera Circuit to light Cfl'c here one aaa . Jeanna if your aaa fugi is a bad transistor you can replace it with a 2n3904 or 2n2222 just make sure the legs are in the right holEs the pin out is different than a Standard fuji transistor . you can zoom in and see the mod . . replace the base resistor and short a diode . not the red one . free if you need some help let me know and i'll try to help .

Nite ..and Sweet Electric Dreams everyone . Mucho Tired .
Gadget .
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on June 14, 2009, 02:02:52 AM

Quote from: jeanna on June 13, 2009, 11:42:13 PM
I say things I got from reading the lectures, and some people think I don't know what I am saying.
I don't,
but since it is coming from tesla, I trust he does.

...

you understand what he said base on what you know.
we all do the same.
for example: you see a sparks gap where i see a simple switch.
to me, a spark gap is far from producing the smoot current an alternator can produce.

in my reply to Altrez
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg185934#msg185934
the first part explain what will happen in a transformer in specific cases of having too many turns.
no matter what is the frequency.
if it don't change with the ratio, then what i wrote will be true.
sure, the highest possible frequency is limited by the core, but it will still be true if the frequency is within the core limits.
the same apply to a jt with pickup(s) in regard to the turns of the pickup.

the second part deal specificly with the frequencies.
what i wrote is the same things Tesla wrote, i can't say different.
what applied in Tesla times still apply today.
the only difference is the words used to describe the behaviors.

i know you are trying to understand how the jt, as a whole, is working.
but without knowing the basic of what can happen, you can be misleaded more easily by the measurements you are taking.
sure, seeing a circuit as a whole is important, but the details are also as much important.
without the details we can't figure out if it could be made an other ways, better way(s).
without knowing what is happening, you will not be able to easily work around some of the limitations you might encounter during your experiments.

it is a bit like if i was giving you a black box with connectors on it and ask you to tell me what is inside it, and why you think it is what you will say it is.
the answeres you will give me will inevitably be based solely on what you know.
it can't be different.
you will be able to give me some informations on the behaviors of what is inside.
but you probably will not be able to tell me what is inside.
unless you already know something that behave like it.

btw
disruptive discharge = insulation breakdown
usually due to an "abrupt" ?, sudden and large increase rise of current.

fluorescent lamp are disruptive discharge devices, the gas inside is the insulation that get broked.
their ballasts are resistive transformer, to limit the current so they don't blowup.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 14, 2009, 02:34:06 AM

@all

lidmotor did it again !

http://www.youtube.com/user/Lidmotor

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 14, 2009, 08:45:19 AM

Quote from: jeanna on June 14, 2009, 01:27:53 AM
Hi Altrez,
I am not doing that anymore. I wanted to do the deal with a hand wound toroid and not rely on a manufactured product, so, I still have 1 unchanged in any way and one that has a blown part, but the motivation is not there. Are you using gadget's mod? I could make one of mine better using that mod of his.
Yes, 24 hours is what you will drain from the battery because the transistor is there. The leds take so little that you are pretty much down to the transistor use.

@Gary,
nice pics.

jeanna

jeanna,

yes I am using the gadget mod and it works great! It works with the AAA fujis as well. And like I said you can easily run a 13watt CFL for 10-12 hours with his mod.

Like you, I want to use the toroid as my main device but I am moving in the direction of lighting at least 6 CFLS and 100 LEDS from the toroid. And I believe the only way to do this is make 6 to 8 small pickup coils and then use the pickups to power other step up transformers or motors.

I also posted some time back of adding more toroids to the pick up coils. This works as well. The key with that is finding and pushing the right frequency out to the next toroid attached to the system.

I am still not sure how to observe the changes in the core of the toroids magnetic field. I believe a Hall probe or something like that might help me understand more about what is happening in that respect.

There is way more happening inside this circuit then I can see with a scope / meter. The amount of EMI being produced is one thing. I plan on getting a meter for testing that.

I am also looking at a LUX meter to document how bright my lights are from the toroid to one that is plugged into mains.

Take care,

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on June 14, 2009, 09:15:47 AM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on June 13, 2009, 08:20:19 PM
@all

There was this circuit that @mk1 posted here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg185652#msg185652

I changed it so instead of charging another battery or cap, it feedsback to the source. ...

@all,
I've thought of a variation in power recovery of CEMF using two polarized capacitors wired end-to-end with diodes:

|--->|---|
| |
| +| / |
|---||---|
| | \ |
-----| |-----
| \ | |
|---| |---|
| / |+ |
| |
|---|<---|

I can only draw this on the keyboard in ASCII, since I have no graphics software available on this borrowed computer.

You might put this in series either or parallel across your JT transformer, since polarity would not be an issue.
(Now that I 'Preview' this post, it looks fairly good on the screen.)

Comments? Suggestions?

--Lee

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on June 14, 2009, 11:25:09 AM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 14, 2009, 12:34:20 AM

Jesus

I think if you solder up at least a few parts that you can use alot your stabilty will improve .

I think that that is a good solution to the contact problem.
I saw a picture of your charger while reading backwards looking for a link and it is something that looks solid.

I dont see the parts involved in it though.

@free

I saw your four videos and found that you have good craftmanship on your work. Well done!

Quote from: the_big_m_in_ok on June 14, 2009, 09:15:47 AM
@all,
I've thought of a variation in power recovery of CEMF using two polarized capacitors wired end-to-end with diodes:

|--->|---|
| |
| +| / |
|---||---|
| | \ |
-----| |-----
| \ | |
|---| |---|
| / |+ |
| |
|---|<---|

I can only draw this on the keyboard in ASCII, since I have no graphics software available on this borrowed computer.

You might put this in series either or parallel across your JT transformer, since polarity would not be an issue.
(Now that I 'Preview' this post, it looks fairly good on the screen.)

Comments? Suggestions?

--Lee

To draw anything I use paint. Just go to the task bar and choose accesories then paint and you have a very good graphics program to work with.

This replication of your asccii graphic idea is made with the windows paint program copy and paste feature.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 14, 2009, 11:43:38 AM

I tried to post a couple of pictures last night .
They timed out then I was not even able to get back here.

The first one is my 3055 board and my jesus charger together .

The second is my 3055 board, Jesus charger and LM1 driving my 60 LED array.
This is without any extra LMs for flyback and feecback

gary

Edit

The red circle on my 3055 board is a knob on the pot

In the picture if it running
The yellow wires are from the board to the coil primarys
The red wires are from coil secondary to the LEDs
The white wires are to the caps in the tank circuit ( 2 1uF )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on June 14, 2009, 11:50:24 AM

Quote from: the_big_m_in_ok on June 14, 2009, 09:15:47 AM
@all,
I've thought of a variation in power recovery of CEMF using two polarized capacitors wired end-to-end with diodes:

|--->|---|
| |
| +| / |
|---||---|
| | \ |
-----| |-----
| \ | |
|---| |---|
| / |+ |
| |
|---|<---|

the way the diodes are placed there is a constent current path from one side of the caps and the other side, the caps won't be able to charge completly.
the higher they will charge is dictated by the diodes threshole.

btw
electrolytic capacitor are polarity sensitive.
polarity here does not refer to your source polarity.
it refer to the plates of the cap.
one side can accumulate charges while the other is only suitable for getting depleted of charges.
the way they are connected in your circuit can blow them up under specific circumstances.
give them enough reverse charges and they will.

a general rule with caps and AC
if you don't use a diode in series with the cap(s), you should not use electrolytic capacitors.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 14, 2009, 12:13:03 PM

Quote from: altrez on June 14, 2009, 08:45:19 AM

I am also looking at a LUX meter to document how bright my lights are from the toroid to one that is plugged into mains.

Take care,

-Altrez

Altrez

Unless you want to quantify the difference in light levels a lux meter is probably not needed .
Just use your digital camera and take a picture with both lights in it
The digital camera will show you the relative brightness of each.
It will show you differences in light levels to small for the human eye to see .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 14, 2009, 12:47:05 PM

@Gadget
@Altrez

I guess I must have missed that this was done with a "AAA type fuji circuit" - the one with the green slide switch.

I remember asking for help and getting a resounding silence, followed by someone telling me that no one had been able to get that type circuit to work. It has a smaller transformer... I made copies of the help and took off.

That was before february and my 1 month winter camp. It probably happened then or thenabouts. When I came back there were so many posts and I was needing to get back to everything and I had so many ideas for toroids...

If one of you could help Free, then I could listen in and perhaps get mine going. It is close, but I never did the part where gadget adds a pot and a cap. My only records on that are on the fuji "AA type fuji circuit".

thank you,

jeanna
edit:

QuoteJeanna you must have miss a lot of the post i did . I have mods for all three Fuji Circuits and the aaa is brighter than the aa version . I can mod any camera Circuit to light Cfl'c here one aaa . Jeanna if your aaa fugi is a bad transistor you can replace it with a 2n3904 or 2n2222 just make sure the legs are in the right holEs the pin out is different than a Standard fuji transistor . you can zoom in and see the mod . . replace the base resistor and short a diode . not the red one . free if you need some help let me know and i'll try to help .

OK.
I bought 2 and got 2 for free. the free ones were the AA type. All my pics etc were on fuji AA that is the circuit that Pirate had on his kitchen table (blue/white check background)
thanks for the offer to help

both of you!

@Gary,
very nice!

j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 14, 2009, 01:02:55 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 14, 2009, 12:13:03 PM
Altrez

Unless you want to quantify the difference in light levels a lux meter is probably not needed .
Just use your digital camera and take a picture with both lights in it
The digital camera will show you the relative brightness of each.
It will show you differences in light levels to small for the human eye to see .

gary

Hey Gary,

Thank you for that bit of information. I do however want to also provide concrete results with all of my experiments so that others can fallow everything I did and fully replicate.

Its the best way to help me keep track of everything :) With my busy life I might not have time to work on anything for weeks. So if I have a good set of notes with all the findings documented I can always go back to that point of time and resume my work.

I want to roll up all of the information I have and plus all of the great information everyone has shared into a PDF I just have not had the time. I think its all very fascinating and I have learned so much from everyone. And again I must thank jeanna for teaching me how to use a scope :)

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 14, 2009, 01:07:51 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 14, 2009, 12:47:05 PM
@Gadget
@Altrez

I guess I must have missed that this was done with a "AAA type fuji circuit" - the one with the green slide switch.

I remember asking for help and getting a resounding silence, followed by someone telling me that no one had been able to get that type circuit to work. It has a smaller transformer... I made copies of the help and took off.

That was before february and my 1 month winter camp. It probably happened then or thenabouts. When I came back there were so many posts and I was needing to get back to everything and I had so many ideas for toroids...

If one of you could help Free, then I could listen in and perhaps get mine going. It is close, but I never did the part where gadget adds a pot and a cap. My only records on that are on the fuji "AA type fuji circuit".

thank you,

jeanna
edit:OK.
I bought 2 and got 2 for free. the free ones were the AA type. All my pics etc were on fuji AA that is the circuit that Pirate had on his kitchen table (blue/white check background)
thanks for the offer to help

both of you!

@Gary,
very nice!

j

Hey jeanna I will do my best :) Hows your Toroid working? Still lighting the tube?

@free

I would recommend that you order one of gadgets fugi mods to start with. That way you have a good example. It saved me weeks of time doing it that way.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 14, 2009, 01:49:28 PM

@Gary

He do you think your lm could move magnets like Lidmotor did.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCX63Q4vjnY

Mark

Edit all Resonance Experiment

Quote
This is a nicely seasoned video of a resonance experiment.

"Resonance is a phenomenon in which a force is applied repeatedly at the natural frequency of a system and large amplitude oscillations result"

*Note - Frequency of the beaker...

Resonance is a powerfully, underestimated phenomenon.

*Lots of things can happen when you add resonance*

Everything has a resonance frequency and many beneficial secrets are lost to information suppression...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 14, 2009, 02:10:11 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 14, 2009, 01:49:28 PM
@Gary

He do you think your lm could move magnets like Lidmotor did.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCX63Q4vjnY

Mark

Sorry
My internet connection is not good enough to watch videos online

I do put some toroids and magnets in the center of the spools
Everything it a pretty tight fit ......it would have to be pretty strong to make any of that move.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 14, 2009, 02:32:09 PM

@gary

If you use firefox go get the add on called downloadhelper, that way you can download you tube for watching directly on your pc.

@all

just a reminder of the beast 16x140v output !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 14, 2009, 02:54:15 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 14, 2009, 02:32:09 PM
@gary

If you use firefox go get the add on called downloadhelper, that way you can download you tube for watching directly on your pc.

@all

Mark

I have that ........ Once downloaded I can't get them to open
I guess that they require flash
I have flash downloaded ........but it won't open either .
When I try to open it I get a message that it is either corrupt or not a windows program

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 14, 2009, 03:03:41 PM

@Gary

Try this soft , it is the one i use for a player its called vlc player , the codec library is really extensive, it plays anything i put into it , free of charge , i installed it and never looked back.

http://www.videolan.org/vlc/

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on June 14, 2009, 03:18:26 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 14, 2009, 01:49:28 PM
Everything has a resonance frequency and many beneficial secrets are lost to information suppression...

i agree with the first part, but not with the suppression one.

resonance is used in multiples of ways in today's applications.
from particules accelerator and some medical scanners, to more down to earth applications, like metal "fatigue" detectors, pipe leakage detectors and tuned circuits(LC, RL, RC, RLC filters).

most peoples do not not fully understand what resonance is.
me first, i do not fully.
but the informations are out there since Galileo, search for it.

it is not because you have problems finding something that it automaticly mean it is suppressed.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 14, 2009, 03:25:36 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on June 14, 2009, 03:18:26 PM
i agree with the first part, but not with the suppression one.

resonance is used in multiples of ways in today's applications.
from particules accelerator and some medical scanners, to more down to earth applications, like metal "fatigue" detectors, pipe leakage detectors and tuned circuits(LC, RL, RC, RLC filters).

most peoples do not not fully understand what resonance is.
me first, i do not fully.
but the informations are out there since Galileo, search for it.

it is not because you have problems finding something that it automaticly mean it is suppressed.

I am so glad those are not words but i forgot to put the video so there it is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDnNmLkQ3Bc&feature=channel_page

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on June 14, 2009, 03:48:48 PM

TheNOP said:

Quote
...the higher they will charge is dictated by the diodes threshole. ...

...a general rule with caps and AC
if you don't use a diode in series with the cap(s), you should not use electrolytic capacitors.

>>@TheNOP,
Okay, thank you. I hadn't thought of your objections, since I was going from memory of an old Internet source for my information. You do have a point.

Now I have a circuit in mind that does involve capacitors and diodes in series with the negative cap ends together and cathodes of the diodes pointing toward each other. The diode anodes would experience an AC signal. Two Zeners are in parallel with the anodes at positive sides of the caps and when the voltage reaches threshold of the Zeners, the cathodes dump the cap's voltage to the positive terminal of a battery.

I can probably draw this on the keyboard in ASCII, but it would take more time than I have on this computer.

I'll have a different computer and more time later.
Okay, time to re-edit:

+----------------------+
| |
| |
/ | \ |
+---|<----+---->|----+ |
| / \ | | +| | |
| | +-------| | | | |-----+
| +| / \ |+ | | | | |
+-->|--+-- -||----+----||----+--|<--+ |
| | \ / | | |
| | -------
| | ---
+______________ A/C_____________+ -
with CEMF from JT transformer

As described above, the diodes (1N4007, etc.), are now in series with the caps and the caps themselves are in series. Question: That they're in series, does this eliminate the negative-charge-on-the-positive-plate issue The NOP had above? Only when the Zeners reach threshhold, do they discharge themselves to the battery. No need fo additional diodes? The Zeners function as quasi-diodes themselves.

NOTE, WITH POTENTIAL DISCLAIMER:
This circuit is an inspiration of imagination. I don't have the means to test it, so I don't know if it'll work or not. Theoretical comments/suggestions are welcome.

--Lee

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Thaelin on June 14, 2009, 03:50:38 PM

I was out for a walk today and decided to stop in to RiteAid.
I ask if they might have any of the fugi's with no film in them.
I really got a wild look from the gal. When I explained a group of
us was doing a bit of research into using the circuit boards to
run a FL instead of a flash for use off grid. She understood and
"GAVE ME" four of them. All the quick flash type too. ;D :o

So look out, here comes 4 more mods for FL's. Finally.

thaelin

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 14, 2009, 03:55:43 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 14, 2009, 03:03:41 PM
@Gary

Try this soft , it is the one i use for a player its called vlc player , the codec library is really extensive, it plays anything i put into it , free of charge , i installed it and never looked back.

http://www.videolan.org/vlc/

Mark

It looks like it is a very good player .
It is probably to big for me to download
It has failed twice already

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 14, 2009, 04:19:24 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 14, 2009, 03:55:43 PM
Mark

It looks like it is a very good player .
It is probably to big for me to download
It has failed twice already

gary

Hi Gary , sorry to ear that , back in the dial up days i used a dial up download manager to help with that , i found a really small one that should work , i did not test it.

http://applian.com/flvplayer/

Mark

Edit you may also try other source of download like on download .com

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on June 14, 2009, 07:25:07 PM

Quote from: the_big_m_in_ok on June 14, 2009, 03:48:48 PM
Now I have a circuit in mind that does involve capacitors and diodes in series with the negative cap ends together and cathodes of the diodes pointing toward each other. The diode anodes would experience an AC signal. Two Zeners are in parallel with the anodes at positive sides of the caps and when the voltage reaches threshold of the Zeners, the cathodes dump the cap's voltage to the positive terminal of a battery.

the threshole of zener diode is not their rated voltage.
the zener voltage is the voltage at whitch a zener will fully conduct.
unless it is an avalanche type that is.

a diode bridge with a cap at its output is known to do what you seem to be looking for.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 14, 2009, 08:00:10 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 14, 2009, 04:19:24 PM

Hi Gary , sorry to ear that , back in the dial up days i used a dial up download manager to help with that , i found a really small one that should work , i did not test it.

http://applian.com/flvplayer/

Mark

Edit you may also try other source of download like on download .com

Mark

I spent several hours trying to get this thing to download videos

I am giving up for now .

Thanks for all the suggestions .
I am planning on trying that player when I can

`````````````````````````````````````````````````

I made another non toroid JT today
It is just a coil of cat5 cable ......I am guessing about 150 ft
I am using one pair as primary
I have all the other pairs in series as a secondary
With my Jesus charger and 3055 I am getting 68 V with no load.
My LMs take well over 100 V to light the array this bright

It seems to me that another coil of cable or 2 placed near this one would act as secondarys .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on June 14, 2009, 08:01:14 PM

@resonanceman

Your job is excellent!!!

We need now a schematic of the whole project.
Could you do that for us?

I will post this photo at the feedback to the source thread giving you credit.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 14, 2009, 08:33:46 PM

Deleated \\

Oooopps I pushed the wrong button post

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 14, 2009, 08:44:23 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 14, 2009, 08:00:10 PM

I made another non toroid JT today
It is just a coil of cat5 cable ......I am guessing about 150 ft
I am using one pair as primary
I have all the other pairs in series as a secondary

Hi Gary,
I agree with jesus.
Is ther any difference in this except the non toroid?
The reason I am wanting to know, is that a long time ago jadaro made a non ferrite coil and I made a copy and really nothing happened.
They (jadaro's and mine) were much smaller than this cat5 cable coil

This is how I am envisioning this.

You take the blue and orange colored wires in the coil.
You put the beginning of one and the end of the other together and connect that as the center tap into the pos battery rail. The other 2 ends go into the collector and base at the end of the base resistor.
Is the pot with the red cap the base resistor pot? I am assuming so.

Did you have any trouble getting the 2N3055 to begin oscillating?

What is the amps draw?

This is cool.

I have another question for you about the LM1.

You mentioned to me that (was it ) Slayer or lidmotor? had simply used 2 spools from the radio shack 3 spool set as the primary bifilar. The added resistance from the thinner wire gave something to it and more...

Is that what you are using now?

If someone made a diagram for you could you talk them through the changes needed? Or, is it the same diagram, just a different kind of coil?

Thank you,

jeanna

edit add

I meant to include this.

I did a scope test on an old stubblefield generator last week. I posted some pics at the time, but I want to put the results together here because it relates.

I had made the generator with a straw between the iron bolt and the windings so if I ever wanted to take the core out I could. So, here it is with and without the bjtl and with and without the core.
I just plunked thi into one of my jt circuits I had on a breadboard.

I am as always taking readings off the secondary.
Except for the final one ,the secondary is a step down thick wire unknown count.

With core
no light
10.73v 57.1KHz

with BJTL
3.63v 41.6KHz

NO CORE
with bjtl
4.5-5v 7.57KHz

NO CORE
Secondary is a full spool of red RS magwire
35.9v 2.77KHz

So, what I am seeing is that this can very definitely be done without a core.

(NOT LazyMan, however! ;) )

I will help with a drawing if it is different and needs one.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 14, 2009, 09:09:51 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on June 14, 2009, 08:01:14 PM
@resonanceman

Your job is excellent!!!

We need now a schematic of the whole project.
Could you do that for us?

will post this photo at the feedback to the source thread giving you credit.

Jesus

Jesus

What is in those pictures is my attempt at replicating your self charger .
I simply made it in parts so I could use the parts on other projects .

The schematic would be exactly like your Improvement 1 except that I used what I had on hand .... the transistor is 3055 the base resistor is a 100K pot
The cap is 1uF
I guess the biggest difference is that I used my LM coil . It has an 8 turn bifilar primary and a 300 ft secondary ( one spool of red Radio Shack mag wire) #30

This is not quite self charging at least not at the brightness shown
It MAY be self charging if the power is turned all the way down

I thought about adding some extra LMs for flyback and feedback ........but it becomes a really big mess .
To show it clearly with 3 or4 extra coils I would have to lay it out on the floor . It would be big enough it would probably be hard to see the wires in the picture .
I am trying to make it more compact .......or fewer coils .....

I think my next try is to try to combine several coils that I know work well together on one coil

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on June 14, 2009, 09:27:56 PM

this curcuit looks like it would not bee a good recovery curcuit. now i cant say this for sure as having a cap in parallel with resistors doesnt seem to do anything useful but somehow it does help. but the caps will be inclined to discharge to themselfs through the diodes. if it does work as intended chances are it will not be very effecient. perhaps if the diodes were higher voltage than what was expected to be captured? that should be suitable for something like that i would think.

i havent looked for anything yet but there must be a good recapture curcuit around here some where. ill let you know if i see one

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on June 14, 2009, 09:30:55 PM

Quote from: the_big_m_in_ok on June 14, 2009, 03:48:48 PM

concerning your: Â« Last Edit: Today at 09:22:26 PM by the_big_m_in_ok Â»

a cap store Q+ charge on 1 of its plates and Q- charge on the other.
if there is not difference of charge between the plates, the charge you will put on them is sayed to be static charge.
just like the charge you can see on any objects.
ex: combs, carpet, cloths, etc...

the way you connected them in your circuit only change them with the difference of voltage of each diode threshole.
ex: if 1 diode threshole is .6volt and the other is .7volt.
the caps will get a charge of only .1volt

what you must understand is that the B+ of the source is not always what dictate the polarities at specific places in a circuit.
ex: if a cap, for whatever reasons, is connected between a 1.5 volts DC circuit part and a 10 volts DC circuit part, then an electrolytic cap must be connected with the - side on the 1.5 volts circuit part.

the reasons for electrolytic capacitor to exist are size and cost.
i might be wrong with this tho.
but what i do remember is the one side of those cap have less surface then the other.

see my previous post on how i would connect the cap and diodes.
a single cap should do it.
connect the battery in parallel with the cap.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 14, 2009, 09:59:01 PM

@ resonanceman

Quote from: resonanceman on June 14, 2009, 08:00:10 PM

I made another non toroid JT today
It is just a coil of cat5 cable ......I am guessing about 150 ft
I am using one pair as primary
I have all the other pairs in series as a secondary
With my Jesus charger and 3055 I am getting 68 V with no load.
My LMs take well over 100 V to light the array this bright

It seems to me that another coil of cable or 2 placed near this one would act as secondarys .

Here is a simple trick you may want to try with your non-toroid JT. You could problably get the same performance with one transistor and a heat sink, but this will let you push more amps without a heat sink. The advantqage of no toroid is that you can use a lot of amps without worrying about the core saturating (since there isn't one).

EDIT: voltages are wrong (they are actually less than half value shown - due to voltage divider error).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on June 14, 2009, 10:12:32 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 14, 2009, 08:00:10 PM
Mark

I spent several hours trying to get this thing to download videos

I am giving up for now .

Thanks for all the suggestions .
I am planning on trying that player when I can

`````````````````````````````````````````````````

I made another non toroid JT today
It is just a coil of cat5 cable ......I am guessing about 150 ft
I am using one pair as primary
I have all the other pairs in series as a secondary
With my Jesus charger and 3055 I am getting 68 V with no load.
My LMs take well over 100 V to light the array this bright

It seems to me that another coil of cable or 2 placed near this one would act as secondarys .

gary

something that should be known, magnetic conductors such as ferrite torroids are fantastic when they are properly paired in operational frequency however they are used on things like monitor cables and good usb cables to eliminate high frequencies. this coil you made is a air coil and does not have any "magnetic storage" or other properties to damage the signal thus you are most likely using a higher frequency than currently seen on this thread (unless someone else posted a air core) cores like what we use are typically used when someone wants a "magnetic capacitor" of sorts, not only would it be able to step up or down the current passing through it but it also it stores some of that current. the origional plain joule thief was designed to store 1.5 volts and combine that with 1.5volts from the battery to light a led but it also was designed to run from a lower than average battery of .7v typically. now heres something interesting i noticed. the battery might read .7 volts but if you bridge a cap in parallel it reads 1.3v! maybe i had a funny battery when i did this but try it and see if you can do the same! anyways the JT was designed to take advantage of several of the properties of magnetism in these cores. what this group has started to do in its applications honestly warrant something other than a JT. thats not to say what is needed for best performance will be much different but i think the ferrite is holding back the performance. when you provide some measurments we may know for sure.

great work.

great work everyone.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 14, 2009, 10:31:39 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 14, 2009, 08:44:23 PM
Hi Gary,
I agree with jesus.
Is ther any difference in this except the non toroid?
The reason I am wanting to know, is that a long time ago jadaro made a non ferrite coil and I made a copy and really nothing happened.
They (jadaro's and mine) were much smaller than this cat5 cable coil

Jeanna
Yes The primary simply a twisted pair connected start of one with the end of the other .

All the other pairs are connected start to end .......I checked the voltage every connection to make sure it was right .
Smaller was probably the problem
I think that the flux is less dense without a core ......so you need more wire to make equil flux

Quote
This is how I am envisioning this.

You take the blue and orange colored wires in the coil.
You put the beginning of one and the end of the other together and connect that as the center tap into the pos battery rail. The other 2 ends go into the collector and base at the end of the base resistor.
Is the pot with the red cap the base resistor pot? I am assuming so.

Yes that sounds right
Yes the red thing is a knob on the pot it is 100K

Quote

Did you have any trouble getting the 2N3055 to begin oscillating?

Havn't had that problem yet

Quote

What is the amps draw?

Sorry .......I was to busy playing to pay much attention to the amps .

:)

I remember .1A but not sure if that was full brightness .
I will put it back together and take a few more readings tomorow

I tried adding some LMs for flyback and feedback .....didn't work to well .
I am thinking there is an impedance mismatch or something .
It might be easier to use more coils that are similar for the flyback.

Quote

This is cool.

I have another question for you about the LM1.

You mentioned to me that (was it ) Slayer or lidmotor? had simply used 2 spools from the radio shack 3 spool set as the primary bifilar. The added resistance from the thinner wire gave something to it and more...

Is that what you are using now?

If someone made a diagram for you could you talk them through the changes needed? Or, is it the same diagram, just a different kind of coil?

Thank you,

jeanna

I have made a couple JTs with a single separate winding each on their own spool
They can work but I have not got any real power out of them yet .
My last try was to put a 2 spool primary made with sewing machine bobbins in one of my LMs and drive the LMs with it .......I did get a couple of volts ......but that is all

The schematic for this would be a basic JT with a secondary
The only difference is materials

Quote

edit add

I meant to include this.

I did a scope test on an old stubblefield generator last week. I posted some pics at the time, but I want to put the results together here because it relates.

I had made the generator with a straw between the iron bolt and the windings so if I ever wanted to take the core out I could. So, here it is with and without the bjtl and with and without the core.
I just plunked thi into one of my jt circuits I had on a breadboard.

I am as always taking readings off the secondary.
Except for the final one ,the secondary is a step down thick wire unknown count.

With core
no light
10.73v 57.1KHz

with BJTL
3.63v 41.6KHz

NO CORE
with bjtl
4.5-5v 7.57KHz

NO CORE
Secondary is a full spool of red RS magwire
35.9v 2.77KHz

So, what I am seeing is that this can very definitely be done without a core.

(NOT LazyMan, however! ;) )

I will help with a drawing if it is different and needs one.

jeanna

Looks good

:)

now all we have to do is get rid of that transistor

:)

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on June 14, 2009, 10:34:00 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on June 14, 2009, 10:12:32 PM
now heres something interesting i noticed. the battery might read .7 volts but if you bridge a cap in parallel it reads 1.3v! maybe i had a funny battery when i did this but try it and see if you can do the same!

????
are you sure that the reading you got was not .13 volts instead ?

unless you are talking of with a jt connect to the battery, you probably made a mistake somewhere.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 14, 2009, 10:55:09 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on June 14, 2009, 10:12:32 PM
something that should be known, magnetic conductors such as ferrite torroids are fantastic when they are properly paired in operational frequency however they are used on things like monitor cables and good usb cables to eliminate high frequencies. this coil you made is a air coil and does not have any "magnetic storage" or other properties to damage the signal thus you are most likely using a higher frequency than currently seen on this thread (unless someone else posted a air core) cores like what we use are typically used when someone wants a "magnetic capacitor" of sorts, not only would it be able to step up or down the current passing through it but it also it stores some of that current. the origional plain joule thief was designed to store 1.5 volts and combine that with 1.5volts from the battery to light a led but it also was designed to run from a lower than average battery of .7v typically. now heres something interesting i noticed. the battery might read .7 volts but if you bridge a cap in parallel it reads 1.3v! maybe i had a funny battery when i did this but try it and see if you can do the same! anyways the JT was designed to take advantage of several of the properties of magnetism in these cores. what this group has started to do in its applications honestly warrant something other than a JT. thats not to say what is needed for best performance will be much different but i think the ferrite is holding back the performance. when you provide some measurments we may know for sure.

great work.

great work everyone.

Thanks Artic_Knight

I agree that the frequency might be higher

My interest in non toroid JTs started when I was looking for a source for larger toroids
In general large and low permeabilty do not go together except in some RF applications so in my opinion the toroid became the weak link in being able to scale these things up .

I do not think that the cat5 cable is the way to go ............but it was a convenient test
I think that it may be pointing the way .
I was surprised when it lit my array .
I almost didn;t try it because I was only getting 68 V with my LMs I am not even sure that would give even a hint of light .

I will try to get some numbers posted tomorow

I think I am about done for the night

:)

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 14, 2009, 11:08:00 PM

Quote from: xee2 on June 14, 2009, 09:59:01 PM
@ resonanceman

Here is a simple trick you may want to try with your non-toroid JT. You could problably get the same performance with one transistor and a heat sink, but this will let you push more amps without a heat sink. The advantqage of no toroid is that you can use a lot of amps without worrying about the core saturating (since there isn't one).

Xee

With my 3055 I don't have any problems pulling amps
With the pot at its lowest I have seen 1.25 A quite a few times
I have been running 2 AAs some of the time ......I have seen 2.5 A at times .......I don't like to keep it on the high amps .......
I usually do not run on high amps ...... almost always with my LMs the sweet spot is quite a bit less than max current .
I do have a very nice heatsink on my 3055 just in case

:)

gary

Edit

I just looked at your schematic again .......I missed the voltages before.
I am thinking that I might be able to almost substitute feet for wraps .

I am thinking of putting all of the pairs in the cat5 in series (for a secondary ) and adding a primary with different wire .........that way I can tune it better .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 14, 2009, 11:12:11 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 14, 2009, 10:55:09 PM

I agree that the frequency might be higher

:)

gary

My frequency went way way down when I removed the core on that Stubblefield generator.

From 41.6KHz with the bolt in place, to 7.57KHz when I took it out.

Gary,
I wanted to confirm that you are using one battery?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on June 14, 2009, 11:37:15 PM

i posted an aircore back at the beginning of the thread, somewhere. man it's huge now.
here it is.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg143373#msg143373

it ran as bright as any of the 'cored' simple jt's that i have, with less draw than most if i recall. higher freq. too i thought? i am at the lake so i can't do any hands on measurements on it at the moment.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 14, 2009, 11:53:48 PM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on June 14, 2009, 11:37:15 PM
i posted an aircore back at the beginning of the thread,

Oh I am caught again.
On that page YOU had the presence of mind to say basic joule thief.

That reminded me that I was referring to my secondary output for frequency and voltage with a light in the basic jt light place.

I actually do not know how I would measure the frequency of a basic joule thief.
Would it be across the C-E junction?

Thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on June 15, 2009, 12:10:40 AM

Quote from: jeanna on June 14, 2009, 11:53:48 PM
I actually do not know how I would measure the frequency of a basic joule thief.
Would it be across the C-E junction?

yes.
in fact to get the frequency you could connect almost anywhere.
at the battery, between the - of the battery and the transistor's base, between the + of the battery and the transistor's base.
it does not really matter, the frequency will remain the same.
only the amplitude and the current phase you will be measuring will change.

the frequency will remain the same unless you are actually interfering with what create it.
ex: your probe's parasitic capacitance interfering at very high frequencies(vhf/uhf).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 15, 2009, 05:14:37 AM

@Xee2

On the below circuit, there may be a tendency for one of your transistors to get warmer than the other if they are not identical, eg if from a different batch, one of them might have thermal problems, the hotter transistor will be caused because it is taking more of the current/load.

If you place a 1 ohm 5 watt resistor in series on each Collector or Emitter, then the load will be more equally shared.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on June 15, 2009, 11:13:45 AM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 14, 2009, 09:09:51 PM
...
The schematic would be exactly like your Improvement 1 except that I used what I had on hand .... the transistor is 3055 the base resistor is a 100K pot
The cap is 1uF
I guess the biggest difference is that I used my LM coil . It has an 8 turn bifilar primary and a 300 ft secondary ( one spool of red Radio Shack mag wire) #30

This is not quite self charging at least not at the brightness shown
It MAY be self charging if the power is turned all the way down
...
gary

Thank you @resonanceman for the explanation !

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 15, 2009, 11:51:24 AM

@ electricme

Quote from: electricme on June 15, 2009, 05:14:37 AM
If you place a 1 ohm 5 watt resistor in series on each Collector or Emitter, then the load will be more equally shared.

Thanks. The separate base resistors should force equal power, with slight variation due to gain differences. Adding collector resistor would defeat purpose of paralleling transistors.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 15, 2009, 11:57:22 AM

@ all

Note, any voltages I measured across a 15M resistor are wrong. This was a voltage divider and I had not used the correct resistor values.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 15, 2009, 12:19:34 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 14, 2009, 02:32:09 PM
@gary

If you use firefox go get the add on called downloadhelper, that way you can download you tube for watching directly on your pc.

@all

just a reminder of the beast 16x140v output !

WOW so this things total ouput would be 2240 rectified DC volts! Great work MK1 and nice clear pic as well ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on June 15, 2009, 02:35:57 PM

Quote from: stprue on June 15, 2009, 12:19:34 PM
WOW so this things total ouput would be 2240 rectified DC volts! Great work MK1 and nice clear pic as well ;D

in practice, it does not add up to 2240 volts, at least not for me.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 15, 2009, 03:53:02 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on June 15, 2009, 02:35:57 PM
in practice, it does not add up to 2240 volts, at least not for me.

I'm not sure what you mean! Are you saying you can't add them together to get a larger total or are there losses that occure?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 15, 2009, 05:08:15 PM

Quote from: stprue on June 15, 2009, 03:53:02 PM
I'm not sure what you mean! Are you saying you can't add them together to get a larger total or are there losses that occure?

Hi stprue,
One of the things I have learned here is that I must try it to find out.

I know you know this.
;)

So, my fluoro lighting arrangement was with a MK1 design (13T,3T,240T-ultimately giving 450V!) using that same allelectronics toroid you have.
I used a 2N3055 and found that it needed
13T on the base and
3T on the collector coils.
This was backwards from the normal way.
Before I turned it around this way, I was only getting 80v or 15v from all that wire and work.
Once working, I tuned it with a pot in the way MK1 describes. I ran out of collector coil wire to test to see if any more turns would help. but it did light a fluoro, and well.

The MK1 windings may be nominal (even giving 450v) so if you are going to make one (a winner) like this, may I recommend that you plan to make it with a bigger secondary. There is plenty of room.

I used newbie wire 24 gauge in red.
I used 60 turns each section.
Xee2 recommended 80-85 turns in each section. Maybe you should try that first.
(1 section = up or down) so the total turns would be 320T or 340T secondary.
That oughtta rock!

Have you wound this one yet? (I know, you just got back ;) )

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on June 15, 2009, 05:18:34 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on June 14, 2009, 10:34:00 PM
????
are you sure that the reading you got was not .13 volts instead ?

unless you are talking of with a jt connect to the battery, you probably made a mistake somewhere.

well i am unable to replicate my results at this time so it may have been a mistake as previously posted however 1.314v with cap and 1.314v without. the voltage should not drop to say the least! i can say for sure that the voltage is higher with a cap in parallel in the earth battery i have done. that happens every time i measure :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 15, 2009, 05:20:27 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 14, 2009, 11:12:11 PM
My frequency went way way down when I removed the core on that Stubblefield generator.

From 41.6KHz with the bolt in place, to 7.57KHz when I took it out.

Gary,
I wanted to confirm that you are using one battery?

thank you,

jeanna

Jeanna

My original picture was with 2 AAs

I am posting a picture with it running with only one AA

In this picture it is running around .12A
The output voltage across the LED array is 22.4
It is not quite as bright as with 2 batterys but it is close .

The picture is with no tank circuit .
I tried a few different caps .... the performance didn;t change much until I tried a really big cap .......a 5 uF run cap it gained almost half a volt and the current dropped to .08A
The problem with this setup is with the big cap the sweet spot is VERY tight . ....... without the cap the sweet spot is pretty wide .
With 2 batterys it is very wide .

I am not noticing near as much benifit from the Jesus charger with this setup I am only getting about .02 V more when I connect it .
I think it does better with a higher load .

hope this answers your questions

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 15, 2009, 05:31:51 PM

@all

I heard that a mobius coil could hide the load , humm ,it needs some testing .

Both are made of a single wire.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 15, 2009, 06:10:16 PM

Thanks Gary.

MK1
Please complete your drawing. Where are the connections?

@Free,
yup, same for me. but I was corrected, so I cannot help you unless you can get the AA circuit.

Well, on that AAA circuit, I was able to light a 8 watt tube with my hand on it.
Have you tried to put a magnet onto the metal end of the tube?

I also think the cfl twisted bulb types are harder to start. I have not started one of them yet even with a magnet...
corse, there is not a metal end on them either.

The ones to help you (and me) are gadgetmall and Altrez.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on June 15, 2009, 06:17:46 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 15, 2009, 05:20:27 PM
Jeanna

My original picture was with 2 AAs

I am posting a picture with it running with only one AA

In this picture it is running around .12A
The output voltage across the LED array is 22.4
It is not quite as bright as with 2 batterys but it is close .

The picture is with no tank circuit .
I tried a few different caps .... the performance didn;t change much until I tried a really big cap .......a 5 uF run cap it gained almost half a volt and the current dropped to .08A
The problem with this setup is with the big cap the sweet spot is VERY tight . ....... without the cap the sweet spot is pretty wide .
With 2 batterys it is very wide .

I am not noticing near as much benifit from the Jesus charger with this setup I am only getting about .02 V more when I connect it .
I think it does better with a higher load .

hope this answers your questions

gary

ive given this some thought and i think the fact that the wires in cat5 are twisted may be playing a significant role in why this setup is working so well. i would think that with this setup the coil is too large to be creating a magnetic field perse but with the wires twisted on themselfs several times it would seem this would provide a good channel. ... interesting setup indeed.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on June 15, 2009, 06:18:39 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on June 14, 2009, 09:27:56 PM
this curcuit looks like it would not bee a good recovery curcuit. now i cant say this for sure as having a cap in parallel with resistors doesnt seem to do anything useful but somehow it does help. but the caps will be inclined to discharge to themselfs through the diodes. if it does work as intended chances are it will not be very effecient. perhaps if the diodes were higher voltage than what was expected to be captured? that should be suitable for something like that i would think.

i havent looked for anything yet but there must be a good recapture curcuit around here some where. ill let you know if i see one

Thank you @articknight !
I will make a search for recapture circuit.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 15, 2009, 07:24:25 PM

@Free,
Here is a link to a fuzzy picture I took which shows the difference in the outside appearance of the fuji cams.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.520 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.520)
I posted that on
December 28, 2008 and it is

reply #521

Have a look at the photo before you go to the store.
This is the best reason to get one that has already been used. You can see what it is!

good luck.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on June 15, 2009, 07:53:17 PM

@Free

Maybe I'm blind or something. Where is the transistor on that circuit board??

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 15, 2009, 08:16:52 PM

@ All

Here is my most recent achievement. Please feel free to replicate if you wish but keep in mind I'm sure I can get the performance to go up.

PARTS
1 Biggo Ferrite Toroid from all electronics or electronic goldmine
1 2N3055 transistor from RS
1 1000v bridge rectifier
1 400v metalized cap at I believe .01pF
3 2.5v 10F supercaps from maxwell
1 POT I think mine is a 1K but it might be more.

3 Base turns
15 Collector turns
both with 30 gauge mag wire from RS

265 turns on the Pickup with 28 gauge wire I pulled out of a levatron.

This coil is wound in the Hazens1 basic way.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 15, 2009, 08:17:23 PM

Step 1

White stuff is plumbers tape to keep the base and collector windings together.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 15, 2009, 08:18:11 PM

Wind it up!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 15, 2009, 08:20:47 PM

Finished product.

2 20W's and I know I can get more.

P.S. When I fist hooked this biggo up I was getting 879v but after messing with it I got what you see. More then evough to have some fun with ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 15, 2009, 08:25:13 PM

@ resonanceman

How many wires are connected in series for your secondary? I am not sure how many pairs are in a cat 5 cable.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 15, 2009, 08:34:40 PM

@ stprue

:) Congratulations. Looks real good. Can you give some data like battery drain and number of turns for each section?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 15, 2009, 08:42:24 PM

Thank you xee, most of the information is on the previous page. Tomorrow I will post energy drain and I say energy drain because I dont use a battery. I have a power supply set at 1.5 vDC and .5amp. I will post more tomorrow. ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 15, 2009, 08:44:19 PM

@stprue,
Very very nice.
congratulations!

QuotePARTS
1 Biggo Ferrite Toroid from all electronics
or electronic goldmine
1 2N3055 transistor from RS
1 1000v bridge rectifier
1 400v metalized cap at I believe .01pF
3 2.5v 10F supercaps from maxwell
1 POT I think mine is a 1K but it might be more.

3 Base turns
15 Collector turns
both with 30 gauge mag wire from RS

265 turns on the Pickup with 28 gauge wire

OK so somehow you got your 2N3055 to start with those base and collector coils in the opposite (normal) arrangement.

Hmm. It is what I expected, but did not find.

The restof it...
I know the pot is on the base resistor

What is the bridge doing and where is it?
And also please say where the caps are.
0.01pF Are you sure? and where is this one?
oh anyway, where are all of them.

Thank you.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 15, 2009, 08:45:36 PM

humm not sure what happened to that post. I looks like it turned into a topic with your name. I will try to delete.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 15, 2009, 08:59:58 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 15, 2009, 08:44:19 PM
@stprue,
Very very nice.
congratulations!
OK so somehow you got your 2N3055 to start with those base and collector coils in the opposite (normal) arrangement.

Hmm. It is what I expected, but did not find.

The restof it...
I know the pot is on the base resistor

What is the bridge doing and where is it?
And also please say where the caps are.
0.01pF Are you sure? and where is this one?
oh anyway, where are all of them.

Thank you.

jeanna

Yes the 2N3055 will start up hooked up either way but if I switch it around it is like 2 or 3 hundred volts.

Th bridge only has the basic primary in it like Hazen1 would do.

The metalized cap might be .1pF I didn't have time to check on all my parts but it is either .01 or .1 at 400v

the one metalized cap is coming off the bridge and is on both the - and + ( be careful this will blow most LEDs)
the supercaps are hooked up on the input voltage side but are at the end and past the coil wires ++ and - for the emitter

I hope this helps but if not let me know and I will post some closeup pics for you tomorrow, as for now I need to sleep for my real job!

Good night!

~Stew

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 15, 2009, 09:14:34 PM

Quote from: xee2 on June 15, 2009, 08:25:13 PM

The circuit will not shut off without disconnecting the battery
The LEDs blink rapidly ...... the meter reading the battery current reads 0
The battery voltage is going up

gary
'

I was not quite right about this .
The circuit does turn off ......at least mostly off.
It may still be charging slowly ......with no tank cap
WIth a 1uF tank cap the array glows a little .
With a 5uF cap in the tank the array flashes rapidly

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 15, 2009, 09:15:38 PM

Quote from: free on June 15, 2009, 05:32:40 PM
hi all,

ima have try 2 make the AAA fuji circuit run but no luck still...

i try 2 follow the info from gadgetmall but i think hes info is only 4 the AA circuit.
the AAA circuit is abit different.

1 = remove HV & strobe...done...see pic
2 = jump the diode dont cut it...np...see pic...i hope thats the way 2 do it tho?
3 = replace 220ohm with a 10 to 20k pot....well i don have a 220ohm resistor on it...see pic.
maybe its the 102 one on this board?...maybe another 1?
4 = where 2 place pot...see number 3.
5 = np...can do that...

any help on this is much appriciated...

Peace!
V2DAY

Hello Free,

It looks close. Can you give me a reading from the leads where the cap was so I can know what your getting?

Thanks!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 15, 2009, 09:17:02 PM

Quote from: stprue on June 15, 2009, 08:18:11 PM
Wind it up!!!

That is some very nice work! I love the way it looks so perfect!

Nice job!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 15, 2009, 09:18:50 PM

Quote from: stprue on June 15, 2009, 08:20:47 PM
Finished product.

2 20W's and I know I can get more.

P.S. When I fist hooked this biggo up I was getting 879v but after messing with it I got what you see. More then evough to have some fun with ;D

Nice! Keep up the good work.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 15, 2009, 09:39:03 PM

@all

I just wanted to share a tool that I have used for a while now to check my figures. Some of you might find it useful.

http://www.electronics2000.co.uk/download.php?source=ea_calc_ad#assistant

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 15, 2009, 09:58:58 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on June 15, 2009, 06:17:46 PM
ive given this some thought and i think the fact that the wires in cat5 are twisted may be playing a significant role in why this setup is working so well. i would think that with this setup the coil is too large to be creating a magnetic field perse but with the wires twisted on themselfs several times it would seem this would provide a good channel. ... interesting setup indeed.

Artic_Knight

I think you are partly right .
I realised that a coil of cat5 cable would work when I was tuning a primary made from a cat5 pair .
I decided it was not long enough .........so I slipped the rest of the coils off the spool ......the LED on the JT failed to go out .
So a basic JT can be made out of a 6 ft twisted pair ......with only one wrap .......by one wrap I mean the end comes around and connects with the start .......

I am sure that there is more going on than just the fact that the pairs are twisted ,
I added 17 ft ( another twisted pair ) for a new primary .
The new wire was made into a loop then the loop attached to the outside of the cat5 coil
The secondary now reads around 85 V when driving my array ..
I do not see how the new primary would induce current in the whole coil
I would think the fields from the twisted pair would be small and close to the wire .
The new primary seems to be inducing current in the whole secondary .

Also .......last night I set a few of my LMs that were still wired together for feedbackin the center of my cat5 coil .... it DID induce some current in them ......not alot but it was there.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 16, 2009, 12:31:25 AM

@Free,
I searched my own archives this evening, and I found a few paragraphs from march 3 that will explain the fuji AAA circuit.

(I was at winter camp and came home for a few days, read this, copied it into a text file saved it and returned to camp. . I completely forgot this. Also Wilby made a nice annotation to a photo. I might load my copy here too,)

For now, here is that text file. It appears to be all gadget's writing from multiple posts.

Quote==========

There you go. http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/3609-big-joule-theif.html

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6362.msg158838#msg158838

Thank you for taking the time to correct that transformer . I was wondering if anybody else caught that . It matches another transformer on a different fugi circuit . but in essence the connection are the same circuit wise . Basically remove the 220 ohm resistor install a pot put a cap across the the pot resistance and use one end plus the wiper and replace the position of the 220 . then short out the Diode (theres only one on aa fugi ) and output is where the HV cap was .. Simple . No ?
Best regards .
Gadget

--
later gadget:
---
Hi Thank you for the reply .good work on your Mod and winding that extra coil . its interesting that you said the Fugi mod is putting out what is putting in . thats two people that said that . there must be an error however its not mine at least on the mod part . the pictorial from goat works on mine . . You can get results If you simply change out the 220 resistor next to the transistor with a 5k to 20 k pot and short the diode .hook up a modded cfl to the Hv cap output with the cap removed . Stop there and you should have a gutted Cfl Lit if no then there is a Short .only go this far before you continue ! . ok .. I have done My mod many times exactly this way no problem . . there is a spot on the board that one lead from the pot is soldered to and it will short if not careful Its very close to another connection .I have done this and found it shorted .. . anyways try that . forget the diagram for now just do the above only if you want to get it running . . then proceed if Modded cfl lights . If you find that the error is Mine please let me know on that Picture of the Lines pointing to the area in question .. Like i said before i just build them and try to do the best at showing where the connections are . I have used that picture of goats and have replicated it several times but maybe theres a slight difference . so forget the diagram and do as above first ..

Gadget ..
o you also push the copper contact down and solder it to keep it on and place the CFL on the hv cap output .
--
Hey Goat Sorry your having a hard time with it . I have no idea . all your doing is replacing the base bias resistor . it should work the same as before you did the mod if you adjust it to 220 ohms . then all your doing with the diode short is changing the PDC to PAC . that Diode is so the cap will see a polarity and charge up to 300 volts . if you jump that diode the cap will not charge anymore because the voltage has no polarity . are you removing the cap ? . Anyways it should work exactly the same on the very first step and that's is replace the 220 with a VR . Stop there . see if it still works after you adjust that the 220 ohms if it does still work it will charge the cap and the neon or led will light . if it doesn't then something there is wrong . if it does work then jump the black diode . If its an led it will light still but if its a Neon it wont . you can check if its Hv with a neon . if it lights a neon it should be BRIGHT BRIGHT meaning it will fire a CFL . .. ok . Take care ..

Gadget
--

Quote============

OK for now,
I will post that pic from wilby.
Wilby's is different from gadget's.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 16, 2009, 03:41:00 AM

@Xee2
Before replying, I researched.

Quote from: xee2 on June 15, 2009, 11:51:24 AM
@ electricme

Thanks. The separate base resistors should force equal power, with slight variation due to gain differences. Adding collector resistor would defeat purpose of paralleling transistors.

Using resistors on the transistors base is a current/voltage limiting device so the transistor Base dosent get over driven by a strong signal. If the resistors are all commoned at the sourse, tells me it's to keep all transistors in sync. They all switch on and off together.

I have paralled 4 X 2n3055 transistors in my second adjustable power supply which I used for 20 years. A LM317 (adjustable transistor) output was sent to the bases of all four 2n3055 transistors.

Connecting load sharing resistors can be on the Collectors or the Emitters, it is usually the emittors.
Generally people follow the below circuit.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 16, 2009, 07:06:23 AM

Quote from: free on June 16, 2009, 06:37:12 AM
hi Altrez,

when i messure it...its like this.
when i put the needles of the multimeter on the 2 poles where the HV cap was i get a quick high voltage reading...this can be from 50 to 750v...this is only 4 a split second.
if i leave them on the poles...it messure zero volts....i take them off and put them again and HV spike again....but its not continuously.

thnx 4 ur support

Peace!
V2DAY

Do you happen to have another one that has not been modified yet? I would like you to just remove the cap and check readings please.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 16, 2009, 08:17:36 AM

@Free
Welcome to the humble Joule Thief forum, I have been away a few days.
I took a look at your UTube page, very nice man.

jim

@Stprue
That is a very tidy big toroid there, looks like it's been wrapped in gold leaf lol.

@All
Some months ago I said it should be possibel to tune the toroid by using a variable capacitor, and so it seems possible.
It appears there is another way to fine tune the JT, if you go to the below web site, scroll down.
At the bottom of the page, there is a circuit showing what looks like a JT to me, which has a "tuning capacitor" instead of a "base" resistor.

We should also be able to tune this further by insurting a tuneable "choke" which is a multy tapped sincle coil wrapped around a toroid placed in series with the JT primary.

http://www.qrp4u.de/docs/en/rf_ampl/index.htm

look for this, it makes very interesting reading too.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 16, 2009, 08:36:38 AM

Quote from: altrez on June 15, 2009, 09:17:02 PM
That is some very nice work! I love the way it looks so perfect!

Nice job!

-Altrez

Thank you very much...I'll tell you one thing, it's a lot easier and quicker to wind when you can fit your spool through the center of the coil.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on June 16, 2009, 09:07:37 AM

TheNOP said:

Quote
a diode bridge with a cap at its output is known to do what you seem to be looking for.

No, but I'll show you what I mean:

AC from JT
| | /
+-----|<----| |---+
| | \ |
Relay coil ||( |
parallel with JT ||( |
||( |
||( |
| |
| \ | |
+---| |--->|------+
| / |
|
|AC from JT

I remember this from an older Internet source awhile back, I think also dealing with free/alternative energy. My previous circuits, elesewhere on the Joule Thief topic thread, were thought experiments to replicate and improve on this circuit immediately above.
NOTE:
The precise circuit, I recall, had the caps paralleled on either side of the relay coil, but were also presented as I show them here---oppositely wired. I did it this way for ease of drawing.

The Relay coil could also be the JT transformer itself and this circuit was advertised as a recovery method for CEMF.

My question is:
Is there any limit to the number of these that can be added to the JT/relay coil? Does Lenz' Law come into play with this tactic?

--Lee

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 16, 2009, 11:58:59 AM

Quote from: electricme on June 16, 2009, 08:17:36 AM
@Free
Welcome to the humble Joule Thief forum, I have been away a few days.
I took a look at your UTube page, very nice man.

jim

@Stprue
That is a very tidy big toroid there, looks like it's been wrapped in gold leaf lol.

@All
Some months ago I said it should be possibel to tune the toroid by using a variable capacitor, and so it seems possible.
It appears there is another way to fine tune the JT, if you go to the below web site, scroll down.
At the bottom of the page, there is a circuit showing what looks like a JT to me, which has a "tuning capacitor" instead of a "base" resistor.

We should also be able to tune this further by insurting a tuneable "choke" which is a multy tapped sincle coil wrapped around a toroid placed in series with the JT primary.

http://www.qrp4u.de/docs/en/rf_ampl/index.htm

look for this, it makes very interesting reading too.

jim

Jim,

Thanks for sharing that link its very interesting.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 16, 2009, 12:42:01 PM

Hi everyone . Not much happening here . This is a bit off topic and it concerns German Ingenuity . What will they think of next :) I wish i had one on my street ;D
http://d.yimg.com/kq/groups/9577550/168641286/name/SpeedBump.wmv

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Thaelin on June 16, 2009, 12:42:29 PM

@ Free:
I just scored 4 of the cameras and all of them have the aaa board.
I feel that they no longer use the aa. The resistor you could not read is
a 58 megohm. The one on the bottom marked 749 is actually a diode and
not the one you need to jumper. The one with two readings is a 16K ohm
with the other one a 16ohm.

thay

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 16, 2009, 02:21:21 PM

@Thaelin,
@Free,

Well Thay and Free, This is precisely the reason I set my goal to turn on a fluoro tube by using a hand wound toroid. I did not want to be dependent on the make up of this manufactured product whose design was for a different use.

So, a bunch of us have now been able to light fluoro tubes using hand wound toroids. We are getting closer to a formula that anyone could use to do this. (another goal of mine is to make the instructions easy and clear so anyone with the desire can make one herself. )( ;) :D )

I will jump back in in another day or so.
I am still enjoying my accomplishment.

Keep at it, and always have fun!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 16, 2009, 02:40:18 PM

Quote from: the_big_m_in_ok on June 16, 2009, 09:07:37 AM
what I mean:

AC from JT
| | /
+-----|<----| |---+
| | \ |
Relay coil ||( |
parallel with JT ||( |
||( |
||( |
| |
| \ | |
+---| |--->|------+
| / |
|
|AC from JT

I remember this from an older Internet source awhile back, ...
..., were thought experiments to replicate and improve on this circuit immediately above.
NOTE:
The precise circuit, I recall, had the caps paralleled on either side of the relay coil, but were also presented as I show them here---oppositely wired. I did it this way for ease of drawing.

The Relay coil could also be the JT transformer itself
...

My question is:
Is there any limit to the number of these that can be added to the JT/relay coil? Does Lenz' Law come into play with this tactic?

--Lee

I keep thinking you are drawing this.
Are you?

If you are, this is the reason I want to begin a AC from the JT thread. I am getting closer to doing it. ;)

I want to explore the question you pose.
Our house wiring is set up in a way like this and my surprise
2 tier circuit was operating like this with different potentials at different areas.

I wasn't answering you because I thought you were/are wanting to make it into DC, but just in case you are not...

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on June 16, 2009, 03:00:21 PM

Quote from: electricme on June 16, 2009, 03:41:00 AM
@Xee2
Before replying, I researched.

Using resistors on the transistors base is a current/voltage limiting device so the transistor Base dosent get over driven by a strong signal. If the resistors are all commoned at the sourse, tells me it's to keep all transistors in sync. They all switch on and off together.

I have paralled 4 X 2n3055 transistors in my second adjustable power supply which I used for 20 years. A LM317 (adjustable transistor) output was sent to the bases of all four 2n3055 transistors.

Connecting load sharing resistors can be on the Collectors or the Emitters, it is usually the emittors.
Generally people follow the below circuit.

adding resistors at the transistro's emiters is the way to limit current.
but..., is it what we want to do ?
for me, it is not the way i want to limit it.

the way i would try it is: a trim pot on each base + one potentiometer connected to all the trim pots.
once the trim pots are correctly set, all transistors will work equaly.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 16, 2009, 03:19:25 PM

Quote from: electricme on June 16, 2009, 08:17:36 AM

@Stprue
That is a very tidy big toroid there, looks like it's been wrapped in gold leaf lol.

Thanks that is the wire I have had the most success with.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 16, 2009, 03:45:07 PM

@all

Has anyone tried to use a DC/DC converter with their JT? I'm assuming it wont work for many reasons but was just wondering. I was also wondering if anyone has tried to light up an electro-luminescent strip with a JT?

@Hazens1

Any progress with those new cores, I can't wait to see what you come up with! Keep us posted ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 16, 2009, 04:02:39 PM

Hi stprue,

I wanted to ask a favor of you.

I would like to see if there is any actual difference between your results using the power line pulser and a AA battery.

These are powerful inductors we are using, and it could be possible that your results are being improved by the grid's nearby presence.

It would be unpleasant at best, to think you could light a few lights only to find out that they do not work so well when the grid goes down, which it still does in some places.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 16, 2009, 04:16:10 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 16, 2009, 04:02:39 PM
Hi stprue,

I wanted to ask a favor of you.

I would like to see if there is any actual difference between your results using the power line pulser and a AA battery.

These are powerful inductors we are using, and it could be possible that your results are being improved by the grid's nearby presence.

It would be unpleasant at best, to think you could light a few lights only to find out that they do not work so well when the grid goes down, which it still does in some places.

thank you,

jeanna

Good call Jeanna, I will do this tonight. I have done this with most of my other coils and the proformance usually goes up but it is better to make certain. I will snap a few more close-up shots as well!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on June 16, 2009, 04:19:09 PM

Quote from: the_big_m_in_ok on June 16, 2009, 09:07:37 AM

...

The Relay coil could also be the JT transformer itself and this circuit was advertised as a recovery method for CEMF.

My question is:
Is there any limit to the number of these that can be added to the JT/relay coil? Does Lenz' Law come into play with this tactic?

just to make sure we are talking about the same thing.

Lenz's law deal with induction.
Lenz's law states that the magnetic field of any induced current opposes the change that induces it.

cemf = "counter-electromotive force", whitch is the electromotive force, that pushes against the current which induces it.
it is something caused by the current passing through a wire loops and the loop's proximities.

sorry, i don't see how diode(s) and cap(s) can help against this.
the only way i know around it is coil's configuration.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 16, 2009, 04:19:13 PM

WAY DA GO FREE!!!

It looks like you managed to get one good camera. pic4 looks like the AA to me?

I am glad you could do it in record time too1

How interesting they have one with 2 caps.
Interesting how different the voltages are too.

very nice,

:D,

jeanna

edit,
I see we posted at the same time.
AAA for everyone? OK go 4 it!

j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 16, 2009, 06:30:31 PM

@Jeanna

New Duracell battery @ 1.576v

Out put on coil +-900vDC

and some close up pics. I hope this helps and let me know if you still want to see some clf's lit with this. The 400v caps were .01uf and the POT was a 500 ;ohm.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 16, 2009, 06:39:41 PM

OK thanks stprue,

Yes, it does help,
and...

I finally saw this

Quote

Out put on coil +-900vDC

So, it is through a bridge then read by a meter or collected in a cap?

Thank you,

jeanna

"Altrez has the scope like mine and stprue has the core like mine... not the same person", she starts to mumble to herself... ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 16, 2009, 07:12:16 PM

@Altrez
Thanks for the link altrez

Quote from: altrez on June 15, 2009, 09:39:03 PM
@all

I just wanted to share a tool that I have used for a while now to check my figures. Some of you might find it useful.

http://www.electronics2000.co.uk/download.php?source=ea_calc_ad#assistant

-Altrez

I put a link on my desktop to this one.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 16, 2009, 07:59:55 PM

@all

After reading i know now a bifilar like Tesla makes a stronger magnetic field for the same voltage , now could it be used to boost the jt power , i will need to try , in those tpu forum they say that a mobius coil doesn't see its load that is nice , if true but even better is if the jt doesn't see it !!!

@ all great work !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 16, 2009, 08:16:09 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 16, 2009, 06:39:41 PM
OK thanks stprue,

Yes, it does help,
and...

I finally saw thisSo, it is through a bridge then read by a meter or collected in a cap?

Thank you,

jeanna

"Altrez has the scope like mine and stprue has the core like mine... not the same person", she starts to mumble to herself... ;)

Heheh Can you post a link to the toroid I will buy one so I can TRY to keep up with your progress :)

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 16, 2009, 08:17:51 PM

Quote from: electricme on June 16, 2009, 07:12:16 PM
@Altrez
Thanks for the link altrez
I put a link on my desktop to this one.

jim

Your welcome :)

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 16, 2009, 08:19:05 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 16, 2009, 07:59:55 PM
@all

After reading i know now a bifilar like Tesla makes a stronger magnetic field for the same voltage , now could it be used to boost the jt power , i will need to try , in those tpu forum they say that a mobius coil doesn't see its load that is nice , if true but even better is if the jt doesn't see it !!!

@ all great work !

This sounds very interesting, I have been wanting to include some tesla stuff with our stuff we are doing here. Tech combos are what's going to be the breakthrough.

@all

Has anybody herd about a new and very simple tech. called areovoltaic (I think) it's a metal circular loop that produces voltage when air passes though it. I read about it in a Boston paper but I cant find it on line or the company. This type of tech sounds perfect to merge with the JT. Anyway if anybody can find anything about this please let me know.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 16, 2009, 08:26:27 PM

Quote from: altrez on June 16, 2009, 08:17:51 PM
Your welcome :)

-Altrez

google (to start, there is a lot in these)

electronic goldmine
all electronics

These are some basic places to start and are very good! Anyone else please feel free to add 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 16, 2009, 08:34:22 PM

@all

More info !
Tesla bifilar coil!

There is also some talk about the circuit part in red , now used in his new Bedini/jt circuit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 16, 2009, 08:40:32 PM

Quote from: stprue on June 16, 2009, 08:19:05 PM
This sounds very interesting, I have been wanting to include some tesla stuff with our stuff we are doing here. Tech combos are what's going to be the breakthrough.

@all

Has anybody herd about a new and very simple tech. called areovoltaic (I think) it's a metal circular loop that produces voltage when air passes though it. I read about it in a Boston paper but I cant find it on line or the company. This type of tech sounds perfect to merge with the JT. Anyway if anybody can find anything about this please let me know.

The air passes through a mesh if its the tech I believe you are speaking about. Its basically a modified air cell that was used in the early 1900s If I recall correctly.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 16, 2009, 08:42:26 PM

Quote from: stprue on June 16, 2009, 08:26:27 PM
google (to start, there is a lot in these)

electronic goldmine
all electronics

These are some basic places to start and are very good! Anyone else please feel free to add 8)

Eh? I am not sure what your are talking about?

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 16, 2009, 08:44:27 PM

@all

Mobius !

@gadget

Tell us more about the one you made on a pole .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on June 16, 2009, 09:15:58 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 16, 2009, 07:59:55 PM
After reading i know now a bifilar like Tesla makes a stronger magnetic field for the same voltage , now could it be used to boost the jt power , i will need to try ...
...

unless more current flow through it, turns for turns they have the same mag field strenght.

what a Tesla bifilar have is more capacitance.
from a coil turn to turn you may have .1 volt between each turn.
but you will have 50 volts between the first and the 500th.
whitch, in a bifilar coil, happen to be the second turn...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 16, 2009, 09:37:22 PM

@All:

Great work folks!!!!!

I have been very tied up lately and have only been able to pop in from time to time just to see how far behind I am...and it is pretty far I am afraid.

You all have been doing some really great work here.

Free:

Welcome to our group. As I was reading some of the posts, I was going to try to help you but, I see the others here have beat me to it. They are a very good group of people. You will have a lot of fun here and I am glad you joined us.

@ Jeanna:

I do not understand why you keep saying you want to begin an AC topic when everything I am doing is AC. (JT, EB, Fuji, Bedini, etc.) Feel free to do what you want but unless folks are using diode bridges on their JT's they are all AC anyway.

@ All:

I will try to catch up and comment on some of the great stuff I have missed here in the past few days. Keep up the great work!!

We had 3 more tornadoes touch down here within 10 miles of me. These storms have been rough.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 16, 2009, 10:13:06 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on June 16, 2009, 09:15:58 PM
unless more current flow through it, turns for turns they have the same mag field strenght.

what a Tesla bifilar have is more capacitance.
from a coil turn to turn you may have .1 volt between each turn.
but you will have 50 volts between the first and the 500th.
whitch, in a bifilar coil, happen to be the second turn...

Thank nop , you are fast , but thank god this can be tested easily , i have made a electromagnet from a nail guess what ? one regular and one bi.

I can easily see why this is better ! More current more magnetic current , more capacitance you say well that proved it quite nicely, i want more !

Mark

I even found a link , http://www.tesla-coil-builder.com/bifilar_electromagnet.htm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on June 16, 2009, 10:44:48 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 16, 2009, 10:13:06 PM
I even found a link , http://www.tesla-coil-builder.com/bifilar_electromagnet.htm

don't beleive everything on internet without confirming from a more credible source.

that test from the link is a "guesstimate" experiment.
i have been fooled by a site like this one a few years ago...
real tests require a Gaussmeter(DC) and/or a magnetometers(AC).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 16, 2009, 10:50:52 PM

@Xee2 and The NOP
There is an implication in this forum that I am incorrect in suggesting that current limiting resistors should not be used if transistors are paralleled up, to get the enth degree of energy out of their circuits.
However, I again supply further evidence that the correct way is the one I have suggested.
If others want to do it "their way" so be it.

Quote from: TheNOP on June 16, 2009, 03:00:21 PM
adding resistors at the transistors emitters is the way to limit current.
but..., is it what we want to do ?
for me, it is not the way i want to limit it.

the way i would try it is: a trim pot on each base + one potentiometer connected to all the trim pots.
once the trim pots are correctly set, all transistors will work equally.

OK, looking back through this thread you will find reference made to using a 1 ohm resistor to measure current flow, this same resistor is used for self regulation of the current flowing through parallel transistors.
But none raised any remarks about any loss caused by this at the time.

.47 ohm resistors would be preferred for the Joule Thief if paralleling up transistors.

If TheNOP wants to add resistors to bases of each transistor, OK, but you will find you will be constantly adjusting these settings as the transistor output drifts up or down with temperature changes, resulting to current changers.
The resistor can restore equilibrium automatically.

The more current drawn from a device will also have a rise in temperature.

Here is another reference to why 1 ohm resistors are used in emitter outputs.
http://www.avrfreaks.net/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=61230

or try here, in this circuit there are 18 Transistors sharing the current, via current limiting resistors, each is .47 of an ohm at 20 Watts each.
http://www.electro-tech-online.com/attachments/general-electronics-chat/9515d1158115560-transistors-parrallel-increase-collector-current-1.5kw-amplifier.png

This power supply circuit below has a number of TIP2955 transistors, all their collectors have matching current limiting resistors.
http://www.mitedu.freeserve.co.uk/Circuits/Power/1230psu.htm

If you don't want to use the above technique, then get a couple of CMOS transistors, they don't require resistors on emitter legs, but these are more expensive.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 16, 2009, 10:59:07 PM

Double Post sorry !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 16, 2009, 11:02:31 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on June 16, 2009, 10:44:48 PM
don't beleive everything on internet without confirming from a more credible source.

that test from the link is a "guesstimate" experiment.
i have been fooled by a site like this one a few years ago...
real tests require a Gaussmeter(DC) and/or a magnetometers(AC).

Well thank man , thank good you are there to keep us down, i would suggest having some suggestion from time to time , in the middle of all that Nop saying.

I made the test i work for me and Tesla , well , that site is fine !

You got fouled once is that why you always say nope.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 16, 2009, 11:07:19 PM

Hi Bill,

I am glad to hear you are around. I was beginning to wonder if you swirled away!

Quote@ Jeanna:

I do not understand why you keep saying you want to begin an AC topic when everything I am doing is AC. (JT, EB, Fuji, etc.) Feel free to do what you want but unless folks are using diode bridges on their JT's they are all AC anyway.

But most folks ARE using diodes and turning the ac into a single direction. This is a fine thing to do. I just find that when an ac idea comes up it is quickly buried by other things on the thread that are dc related.
(like the brilliant idea of charging a battery, for instance)

The thread is so big and only a few want to concentrate or even poke at how to keep the ac going as ac, I want to do that and it is a little cumbersome at the moment because pages and pages go by before the AC idea is addressed as AC.

AC is what we produce from the secondary.

The plan for the ac thread is to be only looking at what can be done from the AC once it has been made and not the dc potentials.

Our world has AC in wires in 2 forms 240V 50Hz and 120 v 60Hz.
As soon as an EE wants to take a small amount to do something he collects a little rectifies and that's it . It is a habit. And there is nothing wrong with it.

I want to explore multiple output circuits which all have one ac source. They would be parallel circuits maybe with inductors caps resistors little tanks etc instead of diodes and rectifiers and batteries or super caps.
I hardly know anything about such wonderfullness and I want to change that situation...

If many people here were actually interested in keeping the ac, then there would be more posts about it.

So, the short answer is:
It will be easier to find the relevant comments and to be able to follow the history of an idea when that idea goes in the direction of ac and stays ac.

It may not help me, or any others wanting to explore the jt as ac generator, but I hope it will.

I am certainly not wanting to offend anyone. I hope that is clear.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 16, 2009, 11:12:40 PM

@Bill
Good to see you again Bill
Bad things those tornadoes :(

Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 16, 2009, 09:37:22 PM
@All:
Great work folks!!!!!
We had 3 more tornadoes touch down here within 10 miles of me. These storms have been rough.

Bill

I hope you have one of those underground bolt holes at your place to take refuge in, don't be brave and sit it out on the surface if one of those things heads in your direction.

I feel for those who may have been touched by them, 3 tornadoes in 10 miles, is a bit scary

Take care.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 16, 2009, 11:16:21 PM

Altrez,

I got mine at allelectronics.
It is a tor-60, $3.50 each
http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/TOR-60/3.38-DIAMETER-FERRITE-TOROID/1.html (http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/TOR-60/3.38-DIAMETER-FERRITE-TOROID/1.html)
this is 3 .38 inches in diameter.

That will be great for you to get one of these!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 16, 2009, 11:33:59 PM

@MK1
On the top of the last page is one of the best descriptions I have ever seen on the winding of the Bifilar coil, terrific art work, its a good find.

Same with the MOBIUS coil setup, I wonder if it is possible to make a Mobius secondary?

Nice work mark

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 16, 2009, 11:39:17 PM

@electricme

Mobilus , both ends of the coil show the same polarity , easy way is to change the winding direction midway in the coil.

Mark

Edit , yes nice drawing (tesla) , that way both sides of the coil have the same power both side are as strong.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 17, 2009, 12:24:53 AM

So Mark,
How are you testing the mobius?

If you made it on a nail which is easy to try, then what did you do, please?

Also,
Please explain how this is different from the MK1 design pickup?
OH NO wait... I see there are no crosses in the tesla. but there are crosses in the mobius, I thought.
edit

QuoteMobilus , both ends of the coil show the same polarity , easy way is to change the winding direction midway in the coil.

That is the MK1

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on June 17, 2009, 12:37:27 AM

@electricme
i was not saying that you were wrong.
it is the proper way to "balance" multiple transistors in parallel.

my point is that by adding resistor you are also limiting inrush current.

@Mk1
how many paper clips could you hang one below the other for each electro magnet ?

to me, same number of turns, same current = same mag field strenght.
but you insistance kinda make me begin to doubt at myself.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 17, 2009, 12:51:27 AM

@nop

I don't know why it works but i got a feeling that having both sides of the coil about the same power makes for a greater field , not one week and other strong , if you take a magnet and kill one side all you are left with is a piece of metal , both sides are important. So to conclude the field stronger because its equal on both side, but technically weaker on one end and stronger on the other then regular , balance , ying yang

I did not lift any paper clip i don't have any !

@Jeanna

Not yet , but i will , i started working a bit , so i could keep this up , maybe find a scope and a way to get some super caps .

Also by now i know why i first i was thinking that the freq was going up when the base resistance was going down ! The sound is confusing it going higher with lower freq.

Mark

Edit i am also finishing testing this baby! Quick peek !
Its all in the coil design. Then i will reverse the winding directing at midway.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 17, 2009, 01:03:53 AM

QuoteThe sound is confusing it going higher with lower freq

YES!
Isn't that the oddest thing?
But it is definitely true.

Thanks for the confirmation on that too. I don't know how that can be, but it is.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 17, 2009, 02:09:25 AM

@TheNOP,
Thank you, I accept this. :)
For what it is worth, I think everyone is a little bit toe-ie at the moment.

Quote from: TheNOP on June 17, 2009, 12:37:27 AM
@electricme
i was not saying that you were wrong.
it is the proper way to "balance" multiple transistors in parallel.

my point is that by adding resistor you are also limiting inrush current.

This is very true, but it is so small that it probably wouldn't matter, wouldn't it be wonderful if every transistor had identical specs!

@all
I found a site which is looking into Schumann Waves, I was looking for a way to record telleric and Magnetic earth currents, their timings/rotations/field strengths etc and came across this site.

Now, I wonder if anyone has ever tried to make a toroid (induction coil) as big as this BIG HUGE iron filled instrument. No it is not a toroid, but then again it sure could be turned into one he he. It has 9.? Kilograms of fine copper wire, sounds to me he wound the whole gigantic spool onto it.

http://www.mitedu.freeserve.co.uk/Circuits/Power/1230psu.htm

@Bill,
If you gotta head for a foxhole, don't forget your JT light :D

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on June 17, 2009, 02:32:31 AM

Quote from: TheNOP on June 16, 2009, 04:19:09 PM
the only way i know around it is coil's configuration.

you have a coil configuration that gets around lenz's law?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 17, 2009, 08:31:22 AM

Quote from: free on June 15, 2009, 05:32:40 PM
hi all,

ima have try 2 make the AAA fuji circuit run but no luck still...

i try 2 follow the info from gadgetmall but i think hes info is only 4 the AA circuit.
the AAA circuit is abit different.

1 = remove HV & strobe...done...see pic
2 = jump the diode dont cut it...np...see pic...i hope thats the way 2 do it tho?
3 = replace 220ohm with a 10 to 20k pot....well i don have a 220ohm resistor on it...see pic.
maybe its the 102 one on this board?...maybe another 1?
4 = where 2 place pot...see number 3.
5 = np...can do that...

any help on this is much appriciated...

Peace!
V2DAY

Hi Free . I have all the Modles of camera circuits Modded . I hcan help you with your aaa fugi . Its easier than the aa version . and Stronger !!
Let me take some snapshots and try and show you the location of a pot replacments and resistor short . thats it . l8r
gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 17, 2009, 11:32:20 AM

@ Mk1

Quote from: Mk1 on June 16, 2009, 08:34:22 PM
More info !
Tesla bifilar coil!

??? This diagram must be an April fools joke or something like that. It does not work! Just try it. When you put 50 volts across the wires in the center as shown you will measure 50 volts (NOT 100 VOLTS) across the other ends of the wires. This drawing is not real.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 17, 2009, 11:50:28 AM

@ electricme

Quote from: electricme on June 16, 2009, 10:50:52 PM
@Xee2 and The NOP
There is an implication in this forum that I am incorrect in suggesting that current limiting resistors should not be used if transistors are paralleled up, to get the enth degree of energy out of their circuits.

You are correct. Putting resistors in series with the collector is the best way to prevent thermal runaway. But, you missed the point. I was paralleling the transistors to reduce the on resistance in series with the collector coil. Adding resistors in series with the collector would have defeated the reason for paralleling the transistors. Using base resistors was a workable alternative.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 17, 2009, 11:57:18 AM

Quote from: altrez on June 16, 2009, 08:42:26 PM
Eh? I am not sure what your are talking about?

-Altrez

Sorry I think those were meant for free.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 17, 2009, 12:19:36 PM

Quote from: xee2 on June 17, 2009, 11:50:28 AM
@ electricme

You are correct. Putting resistors in series with the collector is the best way to prevent thermal runaway. But, you missed the point. I was paralleling the transistors to reduce the on resistance in series with the collector coil. Adding resistors in series with the collector would have defeated the reason for paralleling the transistors. Using base resistors was a workable alternative.

Hi . This is in regards to paralleling Transistors . I have paralleled 4 2n3055's simply connecting e to e b to b to and c to c . The Effect was in My Bedini Circuit it was Blowing Transistors even with a neon so now it dosnt blow them anymore and i don't need a neon . I am Still able to turn down the Base Bias Thus i have low current draw Still . as the 4 have way more gain than one BUT you can still contral the Current consumption with the base voltage . Now i have not tried this with small transistors yet .

@ Free . Man we talked about the aaa board so far back in this thread i will never find it . . Use what you got for for a pot( VR) Potentiometer variable resistor there all POTS ! use anything5 k or higher . I use the resistor in series with the pot ! it works great . this is why i sell kits and completed Fugi.s I test them 100% before i ship them out and make sure each one will work as i say they do . .as Jeanna said some here are on dial up and large pictures make it hard for them and they are already posted in another thread as she complained so i will complain now and use her words :) .Fugi has its own thread , 3 of them !! post FUGI experiments there not here .
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6932.0
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6933.0
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6934.0
I like Goat he is a good person and has actually started several thread on some of my wonderful inventions . look him up . . l8r

Gadget

gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 17, 2009, 01:05:56 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 16, 2009, 08:44:27 PM
@all

Mobius !

@gadget

Tell us more about the one you made on a pole .

Hello Mk . Mine is the second one in the schematic using a mobius loop and then reversed in the middle . It is wound on a 1960's Am radio ferrite / barium? Rod . i never know what to do with it other than see the compass needle spin round when its drawn across the length of the coil so i wound a standard coil on top of it and used the mobius coil and the new standard coil to power a jt . It works very well on a 2n3055 transistor running as low as .5 volts . unsuspectingly for a silicon transistor i think . Actually i was looking for a interdeminisional spacetime torus portal device when i built it . and Just may be there is something to it . on a larger scale
. I 'll try it on 4 inch pvc on the next one . maybe 2 or 3 foot long ? What i want is 6.4 to 7.543 hertz coming from this thing without any electronics . Don't know if its possible but some say it will. The wiccians do the drill spinning thing to make the wire bifialar before they make the mobius loop for their crystals and orginite generators . I do believe in orgone energy . i don't believe in any witchcraft as the wiccans do .I have seen chemtrails evaporate with a few large crystals i have in 4 corners of my yard and i have made orgone tower busters and chucked them near bad towers.Now that VHF AND UHF Singmals are banned on Tv they are up to something with those signals , Its not because digital tv is better . BS. digital tv wont even work where i live unless you put up a very high antenna. I got regular vhf tv with rabbit ears . you go figure why they mess up something that worked perfectly good for something that wont with out elaborate equipment . Next it will be radio frequency's going digital . watch and see .
the coil i made is here http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/tripole.htm its a mobius with a twist . If you look close at the one i wound in mobius1.jpg there is a loop that reverses the field .
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on June 17, 2009, 01:14:08 PM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on June 17, 2009, 02:32:31 AM
you have a coil configuration that gets around lenz's law?

in part only.

those coils usualy use odd shaped wire, ex: flat side shaped wire, and spaces between each loops.

the thing is to make the loops mag fields to not interfere with each other.
but this might not be something good depending on what you want to do.
there are trade off doing it like that.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on June 17, 2009, 01:33:54 PM

Quote from: the_big_m_in_ok on June 16, 2009, 09:07:37 AM
Quote
TheNOP said:
No, but I'll show you what I mean: ...

>>Later re-edit:

What I exactly meant can be found on the wiring schematic as part of Reply #7310 on this topic thread Page 732, first post at the top of the page. This involves the coil L3 and the 1000 uF caps on either side wired end-to-end with a diode in series on each.

The recovery method was what I patterned my previous circuit drawings from.
My next question is:
Can any number of either my drawings or something similar to the schematic on Reply #7310 be added to the circuit there without being affected by Lenz' Law limitations?

--Lee

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on June 17, 2009, 01:44:02 PM

Quote from: xee2 on June 17, 2009, 11:32:20 AM
@ Mk1

??? This diagram must be an April fools joke or something like that. It does not work! Just try it. When you put 50 volts across the wires in the center as shown you will measure 50 volts (NOT 100 VOLTS) across the other ends of the wires. This drawing is not real.

actually, that part is true.
but it goes like this: you put 100 volts on the ends and you will have 50 volts from each end to the middle.

it is simple Ohm's law voltage divider.
being bifilar or not will not change anything to this(DC).
half way in the coil = half the voltage.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 17, 2009, 01:50:09 PM

@ TheNOP

Quote from: TheNOP on June 17, 2009, 01:44:02 PM
actually, that part is true.
but it goes like this: you put 100 volts on the ends and you will have 50 volts from each end to the middle.

it is simple Ohm's law voltage divider.
being bifilar or not will not change anything to this(DC).
half way in the coil = half the voltage.

Not at DC. The only way this type of coil will double the voltage is if the input is either AC or very short duration pulsed DC (which has a lot of AC components in it).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 17, 2009, 02:52:26 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 16, 2009, 11:16:21 PM
Altrez,

I got mine at allelectronics.
It is a tor-60, $3.50 each
http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/TOR-60/3.38-DIAMETER-FERRITE-TOROID/1.html (http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/TOR-60/3.38-DIAMETER-FERRITE-TOROID/1.html)
this is 3 .38 inches in diameter.

That will be great for you to get one of these!

jeanna

I will order one :)

Take care

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on June 17, 2009, 03:22:52 PM

Quote from: the_big_m_in_ok on June 17, 2009, 01:33:54 PM
What I exactly meant can be found on the wiring schematic as part of Reply #7310 on this topic thread Page 732, first post at the top of the page.

The recovery method was what I patterned my circuit drawings from.
My next question is:
Can any number of either my drawings or something similar to the schematic on Reply #7310 be added to the circuit there without being affected by Lenz' Law limitations?

like i said, i do not know how and if cemf can be lowered with diode(s) and cap(s).

one note tho.
Lenz's law is base on Faraday's law of electromagnetic induction.

Lenz's law:
"An induced current is always in such a direction as to oppose the motion or change causing it"
is simply a re-hash of Faraday's law, but it add the notion of movement to it.
ex: magnet and/or coil moving in space.

technicaly, in the jt case, we should talk about Faraday's law of electromagnetic induction not Lenz's law.
because in a jt/transformer coil the movement of the mag fields are just relative.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on June 17, 2009, 04:02:06 PM

Quote from: xee2 on June 17, 2009, 01:50:09 PM
@ TheNOP

Not at DC. The only way this type of coil will double the voltage is if the input is either AC or very short duration pulsed DC (which has a lot of AC components in it).

true
the "double energy" claim is not true unless the energy they are talking about is actualy voltage and AC is applied.
in that case, the coil would be an auto-transformer with a 1:2 ratio

but there test call for the use of DC...

in general, what they are showing is right.
to me, the doubling claim is for the capacitance tho.
as it is what bifilars do at the detriment of the inductance.

it is what they seem to be implying about the field strenght that does not fit with my experiments results.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 17, 2009, 04:21:07 PM

VERRY NICE WORK EVERYONE ...

A WONDERFUL JOB DONE HERE ....

CONGRATS TO YOU ALL!!

MK1 YOU HAVE AN AWESOME DESIGN THERE YOUR PLAYING WITH ...

ILL DROP A FEW WORDS .. IF I MAY ..

YOU NOW HAVE A TURBINE GENERATOR IN 1 DIRRECTION ;) YOU GOT IT CHASEING ITS TAIL IN HIGH SPEED IN MAGNETIC FORM ..

GREAT JOB ...!!

IST...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on June 17, 2009, 04:36:17 PM

TheNOP said:

Quote
like i said, i do not know how and if cemf can be lowered with diode(s) and cap(s).

>>I did have another look at the schematic in question. L3 is broadly parallel with both sides of the bifilar JT transformer. And, I finally ::) ??? noticed the diodes are backwards to block current flow to the positive plates of the caps.
Never saw that before. It's so new to me that I don't know what effect it'll have on the rest of the circuit.

--Lee

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 17, 2009, 05:16:30 PM

@nop

I explained last night why it works better , did you read it?

It will never double the voltage , that is a sure thing m8, all i am saying is it creates a stronger field , the gain will only be showed by the secondary .

Unless you have anything constructive , you can drop the subject , ok .

oui le coil peut etre comme un diviseur de voltage , chaque tour est comme une resistance , mais ca va pas changer le voltage c'est sur mon vieux. Mais le voltage est mieux disposer d un cote a l autre du coil , donc un meilleur equilibre entre les poles , c'est tout . Pour resultant le champ est plus fort. Quand meme je suit obliger de defendre tesla, come on !

On pourait facilement le prouver avec un tesla meter hummm..........................

ou gauss meter si tu prefaire , pourquoi pas c'est quoi le probleme !

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 17, 2009, 05:57:51 PM

Quote from: free on June 17, 2009, 02:51:45 PM

just wanted 2 say i`ve uploaded ma first JT vid...enjoy : http://www.youtube.com/user/BiDaDiKuNuKu

Hey Free,
I was not able to see more than 1 minute on your utube video. It kept loading but stopped showing or progressing.
Maybe utube changed protocol recently, but I watched a couple other ones just to check that I can still watch and I can, so, hmm?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 17, 2009, 06:00:29 PM

@gadget

My question concerning the mobius was to see if any difference could be done with it , it seems to be working nicely the way you used it , but my next move will be to make mk with a regular coil on one side and a mobius on the other , i will put a cap on one pickup coil with the volt meter on the opposing coil to see if the voltage drops to the cap value like it usually dose, if not then mobius it will be even if the voltage is lower .

@all

For faraday , a coil could be added to change phase , or one wire load from bifilar pickup coil one end of each coil to ground (earth ) or not connected. Or even a mobius the tpu elite say that it will not see its load.Needs to be tested.

But you can really do it with a dummy toroid.I tested it , i will be making on soon with the neon and triac battery charger, with high voltage on the main toroid , it should be a regular mk.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on June 17, 2009, 06:02:08 PM

Quote from: the_big_m_in_ok on June 17, 2009, 04:36:17 PM
>>I did have another look at the schematic in question. L3 is broadly parallel with both sides of the bifilar JT transformer. And, I finally ::) ??? noticed the diodes are backwards to block current flow to the positive plates of the caps.
Never saw that before. It's so new to me that I don't know what effect it'll have on the rest of the circuit.

the components in the red square and the L2 can be replace with an other way to trigger the transistor and the results would be similar.
but that is just my opignion.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 17, 2009, 06:27:07 PM

@IST

How's your phase shifting coil working out? What type of results have you had?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 17, 2009, 06:36:31 PM

@Jeanna @ All

Have you tried a cap right off the output voltage of a bridge rectifier, or maxcaps off the input? One this I have noticed with one of my smaller coils was that as it was increasing in voltage after I turned it on, it seemed to hit a threshold where it would all of a sudden go to 0v and then begin to climb back up until it hit that same threshold voltage. This makes me think that the capacitors are another way to tune a specific JT and crucial at that. I'm not really sure why they seemed to be discharging suddenly and honestly only with that coil (goldmine 5 for 1$$) but I wanted to know if you have run into this before or could explain it to me.
???

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 17, 2009, 06:37:01 PM

IM SURE IT WILL WORK JUST FINE BRO ...

BUT IM FORCED TO MOVE .. SO IT IS PACKED AWAY ...

O WELL CHANGE IS A NEEDED THING ...

IST!

BUT IM ALWAYS JUST FULL OF IDEAS THIS IS ME ;D

JEANA I HAVE MANY AC IDEAS FOR COIL TO COIL UNITS ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 17, 2009, 07:51:14 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on June 17, 2009, 06:37:01 PM
IM SURE IT WILL WORK JUST FINE BRO ...

BUT IM FORCED TO MOVE .. SO IT IS PACKED AWAY ...

O WELL CHANGE IS A NEEDED THING ...

IST!

BUT IM ALWAYS JUST FULL OF IDEAS THIS IS ME ;D

JEANA I HAVE MANY AC IDEAS FOR COIL TO COIL UNITS ..

From someone with your experience I want to see Tesla pancake coils mixed with JTs and EB's and all other. You have great experience that I have seen since I have found this forum. You have your corks but the underlining experimentation and new ideas are fantastic! Lets work together and figure out how to OU our stuff here... it is possible!!!

P.S. Everyone please remember that anything you can think of IS possible ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on June 17, 2009, 08:02:25 PM

TheNOP said:

Quote
the components in the red square and the L2 can be replace with an other way to trigger the transistor and the results would be similar.
but that is just my opignion.

>>Yes, I see. The base of the transistor is triggered by a signal to then amplify it.
For the JT, however, is the quality of the signal important? I envision, as amplified free energy, a reasonably long wire to the base of the transistor with possibly a large wattage, high value resistor to tune bias of the transistor.
Wait. I occurs to me just now: Precise frequency tunes the system to resonance. Unless a variable band-pass/band-reject filter is used, it wouldn't work? It may be complicated if it did work.

--Lee

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 17, 2009, 08:02:26 PM

stprue

Quote from: stprue on June 17, 2009, 06:36:31 PM
@Jeanna @ All

Have you tried a cap right off the output voltage of a bridge rectifier, or maxcaps off the input? One this I have noticed with one of my smaller coils was that as it was increasing in voltage after I turned it on, it seemed to hit a threshold where it would all of a sudden go to 0v and then begin to climb back up until it hit that same threshold voltage. This makes me think that the capacitors are another way to tune a specific JT and crucial at that. I'm not really sure why they seemed to be discharging suddenly and honestly only with that coil (goldmine 5 for 1$$) but I wanted to know if you have run into this before or could explain it to me.
???

I am not sure of the details of what you are doing, but if the capacitor is on the pickup coil output you may be putting too much voltage into it. I was originally using a capacitor rated at 500 volts after the diode and it was damaged when my voltage got up to 1000 volts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 17, 2009, 08:31:29 PM

Quote from: xee2 on June 17, 2009, 08:02:26 PM
stprue

I am not sure of the details of what you are doing, but if the capacitor is on the pickup coil output you may be putting too much voltage into it. I was originally using a capacitor rated at 500 volts after the diode and it was damaged when my voltage got up to 1000 volts.

I have a 400v .01uf cap after a 1000v @1amp bridge rectifier. This 1 cap added to the circuit adds about 400 additional volts. I am not sure why but have an idea. My more pertinent question is about the voltage threshold and apparent discharge. This leads me to believe that caps in the right places on this JT circuit are tuning components. Anyway I'm not really sure. My recent pic's are the same setup as my smaller coil I'm referring to, let me know what you think because there is something going on here.

Thanks you very much...Stew

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 17, 2009, 09:42:29 PM

Quote from: stprue on June 17, 2009, 06:36:31 PM
@Jeanna

Have you tried a cap right off the output voltage of a bridge rectifier, or maxcaps off the input? One this I have noticed with one of my smaller coils was that as it was increasing in voltage after I turned it on, it seemed to hit a threshold where it would all of a sudden go to 0v and then begin to climb back up until it hit that same threshold voltage. This makes me think that the capacitors are another way to tune a specific JT and crucial at that. I'm not really sure why they seemed to be discharging suddenly and honestly only with that coil (goldmine 5 for 1$$) but I wanted to know if you have run into this before or could explain it to me.
???

Hi stprue,

The short answer is yes, I have collected all that in a cap (from a fuji cam) thru a bridge. That was before I got the scope, though. ;)

I cannot explain it to you, but I have been working for days now getting the tesla lectures in a readable form for others to read.
I just added 2 1/2 pages to the ac jt thread next door.

The subject is about how to make different ac effects from 5 different circuit configs. The last one is how to turn it back into dc.
Just when you do read it, remember that the sparks are replaced in out circuits by the transistor. oh happiness! :D

Maybe it will explain it to you.
What you are seeing makes sense to me after reading this lecture a few times. (there is much more of it) and, even though I cannot explain it to you, it may get through to you as it did me??

BTW, in that diagram he was intending to have the experimenter use all 6 circuits at the same time.

It may take a few more long days, but I plan to upload that lecture as a pdf here on ou.

In any case, you can copy all the words and the pics and save them on your computer for more relaxed study.

I hope this helps a bit.

jeanna

I see xee gave a real answer. good stuff.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 17, 2009, 10:13:57 PM

**** WARNING ****

I was trying to post new results, but it looks like this site has been hacked again. I went to add attachment and got a pop-up add instead. So there may be other hidden viruses on the site now.

:(

EDIT: It seems to only happen once in a while so I will try again.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 17, 2009, 10:53:37 PM

Test results with 400 turn pickup coil. Battery was almost dead so that may be why the battery capacitor helped so much.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 17, 2009, 11:36:38 PM

@ Mk1

Quote from: Mk1 on June 16, 2009, 08:34:22 PM
@all

More info !
Tesla bifilar coil!

There is also some talk about the circuit part in red , now used in his new Bedini/jt circuit.

I know you know a lot about coils. So I tried to find a manufacturer for this product, but could not. But the image you posted does mention pulses, so I suspect that this is meant to operate using short duration DC pulses. In which case it would double the voltage. You probably knew this but it is not obvious to me from looking at the image. But, that is the only way I can see that this could be a real product.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 17, 2009, 11:55:28 PM

@all

I feel crasy tonight i made a drawing , it may not be any good but the idea is iron in a field becomes a magnet , a stationary magnet with a secondary on it would not generate anything but this magnet (iron ) is a pulse magnet , humm ...

Its also a transceiver emitting and receiving with the antennas one in the field and one out of it .

Plus and minus , or they could both be in the field with one antenna coil reverse polarize.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 17, 2009, 11:59:50 PM

xee,
Those are really wonderful results.
And, each turn is about 3 inches makes that a bigger coil than I was thinking it was.
The 4-6KHz sounds about right too.
Did the whine sound get quite loud on this one? You have various output voltages. Does the volume of the sound go up as the voltage goes up?

That is a really nice comparison study.

thank you for posting it.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 18, 2009, 01:53:29 AM

@ jeanna

I think the audio whine is from the turns vibrating against each other. I have plastic coating on my wires so there is padding between the turns. I hear some noise but not as much as with the Fuji camera.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on June 18, 2009, 05:35:36 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 16, 2009, 08:44:27 PM
@all

Mobius !

@gadget

Tell us more about the one you made on a pole .

This mobius coil is interesting: however, I don't see how it's mobian in any way, it's just a side-by-side 'gimmick-like' inductor.

I was wondering if anyone knows where I can get some decent iron powder? ..I want to attempt a sort of immersion coil, where I place the coils in an encasement of iron rather than having the iron inside the coil.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 18, 2009, 07:11:45 AM

@Jadaro2600
Iron Powders, sure can.

Quote from: jadaro2600 on June 18, 2009, 05:35:36 AM
I was wondering if anyone knows where I can get some decent iron powder? ..I want to attempt a sort of immersion coil, where I place the coils in an encasement of iron rather than having the iron inside the coil.

I will really look forward to seeing the results you get using this, as I proposed this method several months ago. :D

Here is a site in Australia, there is a really good breakdown on the different size of iron powders.
It seems they even throw some of this stuff on the breakfast cereals also. (yuk).

If I discover more, I will post their web addys also

Australia http://www.metalpowders.com.au/ironpowders/index.html
USA http://www.micrometals.com/index.html you can request samples from here
USA http://www.americanelements.com/femp.html
USA http://www.thomasnet.com/products/iron-powder-62453808-1.html

India very unusual powders
http://www.tradeindia.com/manufacturers/indianmanufacturers/iron-powder.html

Another world wide http://www.hoeganaes.com/

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 18, 2009, 07:47:43 AM

@all

I have been testing input verses output and looking for any positive results. Yes I can light 140 LEDS from my jt! However they are not producing the same type of power / watts / lumens as if they where plugged into mains.

In fact even if I just use 10 LEDS rated at 3.7 volts and 30ma in series they are so dang bright with the JT and yet still do not produce the same amount of power as if I push them with the right type of power source.

So my question is that even when we push out 20000 plus volts with the JT its still not producing any more power then what the 1 AA is capable of delivering to the circuit or so it seems to me?

So if I am correct a AA battery can only produce 2.4 watts per hour tops. So it would be impossible to run a 15 watt tube from a pickup coil at full brightness no matter if you had a 1000000 volts on a pickup coil. I do not believe anyone has successfully lit a 15 watt tube at full brightness for any length of time yet with 1 AA battery? I could be wrong please correct me if I am and also post detailed notes of how you tested the brightness of the tube.

So my question is simply this. Is there any real reason to keep pushing the voltage up? And if so why? What are you the experimenter trying to accomplish? What do you think will happen? I know I have a 900.000 volt stun gun and it will not light a 20 watt tube at full brightness so is the goal of this to try and hit millions of volts and if so what then?

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 18, 2009, 10:41:49 AM

@ altrez

Quote from: altrez on June 18, 2009, 07:47:43 AM
So my question is simply this. Is there any real reason to keep pushing the voltage up? And if so why? What are you the experimenter trying to accomplish? What do you think will happen? I know I have a 900.000 volt stun gun and it will not light a 20 watt tube at full brightness so is the goal of this to try and hit millions of volts and if so what then?

I am just curious to see what can be done at this point.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 18, 2009, 11:04:42 AM

Quote from: xee2 on June 18, 2009, 10:41:49 AM
@ altrez

I am just curious to see what can be done at this point.

Fair enough :) I am very curious myself :):)

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 18, 2009, 12:07:37 PM

Quote from: free on June 18, 2009, 11:48:43 AM
hi all,

another vid with a different AA board also found in a diposable camera.

check it out...http://www.youtube.com/user/BiDaDiKuNuKu

Peace!
V2DAY

Nice work! I really like your youtube page as well :) I have a question for you. I read your comments on your youtube video. You say the light output is around 30% how did you come up with that number? That would be 9 watts of power. What is the Volt and amp draw from your source battery? And what is the amp / volt draw on your output?

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 18, 2009, 12:32:13 PM

Quote from: altrez on June 18, 2009, 07:47:43 AM
@all

I have been testing input verses output and looking for any positive results. Yes I can light 140 LEDS from my jt! However they are not producing the same type of power / watts / lumens as if they where plugged into mains.

140 is not shabby.
140 leds is more than my stringolights has and it uses mains power. It has 35 in series with 2 directions built into it. That is full brightness, I believe, and I am sure you are getting that.

Not only that, you can put 10 in series with 14 in parallel and be careful they may blow out after full brightness...

But this is not really your question, I know that.

QuoteSo if I am correct a AA battery can only produce 2.4 watts per hour tops. ...

and then it runs out after one hour...

QuoteI do not believe anyone has successfully lit a 15 watt tube at full brightness for any length of time yet with 1 AA battery? ...

The 7 watt tube I lit the other day was at full brightness. The 15watt tube was not, however it was good and bright.

QuoteSo my question is simply this. Is there any real reason to keep pushing the voltage up? ...

Hi Altrez,
I have been asking this too, and I do not have an answer.
I thought I would be able to "see" the amps when I got the scope, but evidently not and it is always suspiciously interpolated, rather than shown.
It doesn't show, it is assumed by any results.
I cannot argue with this or anything about this, but, I did and still do find it odd that there is no direct evidence of the amps beyond what the circuit produces.

It IS the reason I have talked about the quality and the shape of the wave.

And, because of that I am a great fan of the MK1 designed pickup.
On the scope this has a different shape, and it is more like the sine waves of the mains.

I find it curious that 450 volts is minimal voltage for lighting the tube, when the wall is 120. I know the boost is needed when using the wall, but I do not think that the ballast in a fluoro tube brings it so high as 450 and keeps it there.

But the curve of the wave from the mains /wall line spends a lot more of its time above the x axis than many of the waves I have produced even though they also happen to light many leds.

This -/\/\/\-
must be better than
this --|-|-|--
even if they do have the same peak to peak voltage.

It is also why I ask about the frequency making the thing work better.
-|||||-

I don't have an answer either, of course, but I like your question.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 18, 2009, 12:40:09 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on June 18, 2009, 05:35:36 AM

I was wondering if anyone knows where I can get some decent iron powder? .....the coils in an encasement of iron .....

Hi jadaro,

I bought some magnetite powder last fall. I do not have the link handy, but if you want I will look for it. I would think magnetite would work really well. hmmm... ;)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 18, 2009, 12:50:02 PM

Quote from: altrez on June 18, 2009, 07:47:43 AM

So my question is simply this. Is there any real reason to keep pushing the voltage up? And if so why? What are you the experimenter trying to accomplish? What do you think will happen? I know I have a 900.000 volt stun gun and it will not light a 20 watt tube at full brightness so is the goal of this to try and hit millions of volts and if so what then?

Altrez

If you assume that current teachings about
how things work are accureate and complete .......there is no reason to experiment.

I believe that the curriculum in our collages have been tweaked to " overlook " the 'quirks ' that could produce OU .

Back EMF or flyback is one of those things .......much is taught about how to overcome it ....... nothing is taught about how to use it to benefit us .

The induction of AC current is not exactly what we have been taught .

The JT can be used to study either of these " quirks "

I believe that the powers that be started influencing our collages around the time that Tesla was blacklisted .

We have 200 years of flawed teaching to overcome .
I am not saying that our collages are wrong in general
99 % of what they teach is right and accurate .
Most of the 1% ........the ' quirks " that could produce OU are handled by omission rather than lies
They teach how to avoid the problem ......... the problem is never really studied .

If I am right about this .........expermenting is the only moral thing to do .
We need the truth .............. we can not go on much longer with our current energy policy

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 18, 2009, 12:52:56 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on June 18, 2009, 05:35:36 AM
This mobius coil is interesting: however, I don't see how it's mobian in any way, it's just a side-by-side 'gimmick-like' inductor.

I was wondering if anyone knows where I can get some decent iron powder? ..I want to attempt a sort of immersion coil, where I place the coils in an encasement of iron rather than having the iron inside the coil.

You can get Iron filings from edmund scientific.com

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 18, 2009, 12:54:03 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 17, 2009, 09:42:29 PM
Hi stprue,

The short answer is yes, I have collected all that in a cap (from a fuji cam) thru a bridge. That was before I got the scope, though. ;)

I cannot explain it to you, but I have been working for days now getting the tesla lectures in a readable form for others to read.
I just added 2 1/2 pages to the ac jt thread next door.

The subject is about how to make different ac effects from 5 different circuit configs. The last one is how to turn it back into dc.
Just when you do read it, remember that the sparks are replaced in out circuits by the transistor. oh happiness! :D

Maybe it will explain it to you.
What you are seeing makes sense to me after reading this lecture a few times. (there is much more of it) and, even though I cannot explain it to you, it may get through to you as it did me??

BTW, in that diagram he was intending to have the experimenter use all 6 circuits at the same time.

It may take a few more long days, but I plan to upload that lecture as a pdf here on ou.

In any case, you can copy all the words and the pics and save them on your computer for more relaxed study.

I hope this helps a bit.

jeanna

I see xee gave a real answer. good stuff.

Jeanna thank you for the info and I'm glad you have seen this effect.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 18, 2009, 12:54:46 PM

Quote from: altrez on June 18, 2009, 07:47:43 AM
@all

I have been testing input verses output and looking for any positive results. Yes I can light 140 LEDS from my jt! However they are not producing the same type of power / watts / lumens as if they where plugged into mains.

In fact even if I just use 10 LEDS rated at 3.7 volts and 30ma in series they are so dang bright with the JT and yet still do not produce the same amount of power as if I push them with the right type of power source.

So my question is that even when we push out 20000 plus volts with the JT its still not producing any more power then what the 1 AA is capable of delivering to the circuit or so it seems to me?

So if I am correct a AA battery can only produce 2.4 watts per hour tops. So it would be impossible to run a 15 watt tube from a pickup coil at full brightness no matter if you had a 1000000 volts on a pickup coil. I do not believe anyone has successfully lit a 15 watt tube at full brightness for any length of time yet with 1 AA battery? I could be wrong please correct me if I am and also post detailed notes of how you tested the brightness of the tube.

So my question is simply this. Is there any real reason to keep pushing the voltage up? And if so why? What are you the experimenter trying to accomplish? What do you think will happen? I know I have a 900.000 volt stun gun and it will not light a 20 watt tube at full brightness so is the goal of this to try and hit millions of volts and if so what then?

-Altrez

Altrez i have Blown over 50 Expensive 100 milliamp LEdS (tophats)in parallel with a jt of mine and had to put them in series / parallel and they are full bright on a 1.2 volt AAA battery . the volts and current are too high on that toroid. Now you cant do that with an aaa battery by itself . The leds are BRIGHTER than a Mains or 3 aa batterys these are 4.2 volt Blinding leds burnt .Just ask anyone here who has blown them mk1 and jennas know about frying components on a single aa battery . forget the fugi which will light a spiral to full brightness with two modifications never mentioned . a better transistors with hfe over 200 and proper tuning of the primary coil wrapped around the secondary .You can also go below 100 ohms on the base but your transistor will fry in a few minutes I'm talking toroid and self winders . They light camping flora lights to full bright on 6 volts (2 of them).and i'm talking about Manufactured camping lights. they now have old tube type and newer u shaped and spiral tubes in Coleman lanterns. i pulled one out (9")and they are 110 volt 9 watt tubes. you assumption is wrong .You haven't hit on the right combination's yet . Try winding over 50 different torroids and you will find torridness :) What ever that means . its in spell check and sounded good.
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 18, 2009, 12:56:40 PM

Quote from: altrez on June 18, 2009, 07:47:43 AM

So my question is simply this. Is there any real reason to keep pushing the voltage up? And if so why? What are you the experimenter trying to accomplish? What do you think will happen? I know I have a 900.000 volt stun gun and it will not light a 20 watt tube at full brightness so is the goal of this to try and hit millions of volts and if so what then?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 18, 2009, 01:02:08 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 18, 2009, 12:56:40 PM
Altrez

99 % of what they teach is right and accurate .
Most of the 1% ........the ' quirks " that could produce OU are handled by omission rather than lies
They teach how to avoid the problem ......... the problem is never really studied .

If I am right about this .........expermenting is the only moral thing to do .
We need the truth .............. we can not go on much longer with our current energy policy

gary

Amen to that Gary . IF we Don't do it no one else is going to .(Except the military and use it for war instead of giving it to us to stop wasting our earthly Bloods oil . )
Albert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 18, 2009, 01:12:07 PM

I can't remember who asked this.

the answer is:
142Volts across the fluoro tube itself. - a 15w, 18 inch fluoro tube.
I got that from the AA fuji ckt.

I was looking for something for free (did not find) and remembered someone had asked this question.

so, whoever you are, here is what I got across the tube. 142v

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 18, 2009, 02:03:46 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on June 18, 2009, 01:02:08 PM
(Except the military and use it for war instead of giving it to us to stop wasting our earthly Bloods oil . )
Albert

Albert

It looks to me like the powers pulling the strings are better connected and smarter than you are thinking.

The military is another step in their protection system
Before an energy related patent is granted it is reviewed by the military.
If they want they can claim it on the grounds of national security .
If the inventor objects he can be locked up for treason

At first glance it would seem wise to use these energy ideas for the protection of our country..............but that does not seem to happen .
The reason is ........that would be a short term solution ........and would lead to them loosing their grip the economy .......
If the military was to use these ideas ........someone would have to build them .......someone would have to operate them .......someone would have to fix them
The enlisted ranks in the military are simply not possible to silence completely once they know the truth .

It is possible that these ideas are being used in black opps ....... but the numbers of people that contact the technology would be much more limited than in the standard military .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 18, 2009, 02:26:51 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 18, 2009, 02:03:46 PM
Albert

It looks to me like the powers pulling the strings are better connected and smarter than you are thinking.

The military is another step in their protection system
Before an energy related patent is granted it is reviewed by the military.
If they want they can claim it on the grounds of national security .
If the inventor objects he can be locked up for treason

At first glance it would seem wise to use these energy ideas for the protection of our country..............but that does not seem to happen .
The reason is ........that would be a short term solution ........and would lead to them loosing their grip the economy .......
If the military was to use these ideas ........someone would have to build them .......someone would have to operate them .......someone would have to fix them
The enlisted ranks in the military are simply not possible to silence completely once they know the truth .

It is possible that these ideas are being used in black opps ....... but the numbers of people that contact the technology would be much more limited than in the standard military .

gary

Very true and another reason for anybody involved in OU or free energy to never to try to make $$ off their ideas. It needs to go to the public as fast as possible so enough people have the info and spec's to replicate the tech. This is the way to prevent surpression.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 18, 2009, 02:39:03 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 18, 2009, 12:32:13 PM

This -/\/\/\-
must be better than
this --|-|-|--

jeanna

I do not think it is that simple

I agree that -/\/\/\- probably has more power to drive a load than --|-|-|--...

I think that --|-|-|-- is probably better for producing more power .
It is more like small disruptive discharges .

My intuition tells me that we should keep the spikes as narrow as possible when trying to make more power .
Then we can run the spikes through a resonant circuit and fatten them up

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 18, 2009, 02:43:27 PM

@all

Ok...

so we can light strings of leds and flouros!

We have some high voltage DC and AC

How can we close the loop?

I'm not sure but I have a question...and this maybe a good reason to strave for ever higher voltages, but I'm not sure because I don't know evough about transformers/converters/induction ect. (The list can go on and on hehe)

Is it possible to change say 950v @ low amps to say 150v @ higher amp? Yes

My question is...

Has somebody tried to transform something along the lines of the above voltages and then re-rectified it and closed the loop of the circuit? Results? Can we use induction properties from another coil and add it to the same circuit to increase longevity or better?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 18, 2009, 03:20:00 PM

Quote from: stprue on June 18, 2009, 02:43:27 PM
@all

Ok...

so we can light strings of leds and flouros!

We have some high voltage DC and AC

How can we close the loop?

I'm not sure but I have a question...and this maybe a good reason to strave for ever higher voltages, but I'm not sure because I don't know evough about transformers/converters/induction ect. (The list can go on and on hehe)

Is it possible to change say 950v @ low amps to say 150v @ higher amp? Yes

My question is...

Has somebody tried to transform something along the lines of the above voltages and then re-rectified it and closed the loop of the circuit? Results? Can we use induction properties from another coil and add it to the same circuit to increase longevity or better?

stprue

I have been working on that for a while
I am making pulses with the JT then feeding the pulses into coils to create flyback pulses .....
I am using my LM coils for making the flyback pulses .....but I think any JT coil would work .......some better than others

I normally connect the secondarys of the JT coils in series with the load .
I use the secondarys because they have more windings .
Standard coils will work too .............but with a JT coil you have the possibility of using the other winding for feedback .

I find that the coil with the highest inductance should be used for the driving JT
I find that if you try to follow a small inductor with a large one it tends to act as a choke rather than make flyback .

I only reached what seems to be charging state once with toroid based JTs ....... ( both battery voltage and output voltage going up )
It took 9 coils for flyback/feedback
If I remember right only 5 were hooked up for feedback .

With my LMs I can reach that charging state with 6 coils 3 if I use the Jesus charger.

So far it charges for a while ..............but lf left unattended it will eventually discharge.
It may be drifting out of resonance
It may be what was called empty volts .
It may be bad connections . ....... ( alligator clips )

I am working with a larger coil now .........when I get it going I will post some numbers

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 18, 2009, 03:25:31 PM

@ STPURE ....

YOU ARE A GOOD EXPAIRMENTER IF YOU GET A MOT ILL TEACH U ALL SOMETHING ...

OK

RIGHT HERE RIGHT NOW !!

;D

IST!

WHAT YA SAY .... I NEED SOME ONE TO GET A MOT ... THERE INSIDE THE MOT YOU FIND 2 COILS CLOSE IN MASS LOW INDUCTANCE AND HIGH INDUCTANCE ... HOOK IT UP IN A 1 WIRE CONFIG COLLECT THE BIG COLAPSE ... IN THE DRIVEING CAP .... YOU THEN CAN CLOSE THE LOOP ... ITS A BALLANCEING ACT .. :D

I HAVE A VID ON YOUTUBE SHOWING IT .... ;) un closed loop

BTW GUESS WHAT .... BOOM BOOM POW..... ;D WILL I AM .... DROP THA BEAT NOW!!!!!!!

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7624.0

O JUST A LIL BLIND TO MY EYE .... ;)

EYE ST!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 18, 2009, 03:32:38 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 18, 2009, 03:20:00 PM

stprue

I have been working on that for a while
I am making pulses with the JT then feeding the pulses into coils to create flyback pulses .....
I am using my LM coils for making the flyback pulses .....but I think any JT coil would work .......some better than others

I normally connect the secondarys of the JT coils in series with the load .
I use the secondarys because they have more windings .
Standard coils will work too .............but with a JT coil you have the possibility of using the other winding for feedback .

I find that the coil with the highest inductance should be used for the driving JT
I find that if you try to follow a small inductor with a large one it tends to act as a choke rather than make flyback .

I only reached what seems to be charging state once with toroid based JTs ....... ( both battery voltage and output voltage going up )
It took 9 coils for flyback/feedback
If I remember right only 5 were hooked up for feedback .

With my LMs I can reach that charging state with 6 coils 3 if I use the Jesus charger.

So far it charges for a while ..............but lf left unattended it will eventually discharge.
It may be drifting out of resonance
It may be what was called empty volts .
It may be bad connections . ....... ( alligator clips )

I am working with a larger coil now .........when I get it going I will post some numbers

gary

Thank you for your reply. This is very similar to what I have been thinking about but only with a JT w/o secondaries. I have 2 speaker inductor coils that I think I will need to play around with. I am currently using the biggo coil and have good voltage coming from it, so now I need to re-change this voltage into something different! Gary, do you think that striving for higher voltages is a good thing? To me it does because the more voltage you can get out of a JT running of a AA the more voltage you can transform!

@ Pirate

Empty voltage!!!

What are your thoughts on this because to me and what I have seen in your experiments a maxcap/supercap/ultracap can put this so called empty voltage to preform work?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 18, 2009, 03:38:07 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on June 18, 2009, 03:25:31 PM
@ STPURE ....

YOU ARE A GOOD EXPAIRMENTER IF YOU GET A MOT ILL TEACH U ALL SOMETHING ...

WHAT YA SAY .... I NEED SOME ONE TO GET A MOT ... THERE INSIDE THE MOT YOU FIND 2 COILS CLOSE IN MASS LOW INDUCTANCE AND HIGH INDUCTANCE ... HOOK IT UP IN A 1 WIRE CONFIG COLLECT THE BIG COLAPSE ... IN THE DRIVEING CAP .... YOU THEN CAN CLOSE THE LOOP ... ITS A BALLANCEING ACT .. :D

Sorry I have to ask a dumb question...what's a MOT?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 18, 2009, 04:51:14 PM

@all

Ok perhaps I simply do not understand what is truly going on with the JT. However I do not believe without some hard evidence that 1 AA battery can light a 20 watt tube to full brightness no matter what type of JT winding you use.

The numbers just do not add up. 1.5 volts at 2.5 amps = 4 watts for 1 hour under perfect conditions. So it is possible to light a 4 watt tube. Now perhaps the numbers on the tubes lie and one really does not need the full 20 watts of power to achieve full brightness.

I plan to test that theory with a controlled experiment.

Thank you all so very much for the feed back. I really want to understand the goal of the project. Is it to reach OU? If so how? I do not think anyone has went OU yet. Or at least has not proved it considering there are tons of prizes that would go to the first person to do so.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 18, 2009, 06:23:35 PM

STPURE

A MOT IS A MICROWAVE OVEN TRANSFORMER

BUILD THIS GO GET THE PRIZE...

I DONT WANT IT .... :)

BTW IM MORE ON TO THINGS LIKE LED TO GOLD ;)

LOL

IST

i was just over to a friends not long ago he says youll love this toy i have .... lol
he says its an old battery charger form the 20's so i had a lookie inside well ;D ;D ;D

i almost remembered building it :D

lol but it charges 12 12 vdc batteries at 6 amp ... has 1 huge rectifier tube in it .... ;D

so lol he has a hole pile of toys for me to play with .... ill snap a few pics of the charger it works on battery resosnance ... cource tune then fine tune ... hummmmmm

so you want to close the loop ..... got a few relays ... OOOOooooo the tesla switch ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 18, 2009, 06:36:33 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on June 18, 2009, 06:23:35 PM
STPURE

A MOT IS A MICROWAVE OVEN TRANSFORMER

BUILD THIS GO GET THE PRIZE...

I DONT WANT IT .... :)

BTW IM MORE ON TO THINGS LIKE LED TO GOLD ;)

LOL

IST

Ahhhh I see. now I'm interested. I don't want a prize either....I want success for everyone!

@all just think what we could do as a civilization if we were not dependant on grid/foreign/other energy. Our focuses could be put to such good use!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 18, 2009, 06:55:11 PM

Quote from: stprue on June 18, 2009, 06:36:33 PM
Ahhhh I see. now I'm interested. I don't want a prize either....I want success for everyone!

@all just think what we could do as a civilization if we were not dependant on grid/foreign/other energy. Our focuses could be put to such good use!

i cant waite for a CLEAN GREEN WORLD WORKING IN SYNC WITH NATURE 8) 8) 8)

WE ENJOY OUR 3D TIME IN A CREATION OF HARMONY ...

8) OUR CHILDREN CRY FOR IT TO BE RESTORED ...

IST!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on June 18, 2009, 07:40:37 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 16, 2009, 10:13:06 PM

Thank nop , you are fast , but thank god this can be tested easily , i have made a electromagnet from a nail guess what ? one regular and one bi.

I can easily see why this is better ! More current more magnetic current , more capacitance you say well that proved it quite nicely, i want more !

Mark

I even found a link , http://www.tesla-coil-builder.com/bifilar_electromagnet.htm

thank you MK1 i posted about this many posts back and no one seemed to listen. im happy to see it fell on good ears :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on June 18, 2009, 07:43:00 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on June 16, 2009, 10:44:48 PM
don't beleive everything on internet without confirming from a more credible source.

that test from the link is a "guesstimate" experiment.
i have been fooled by a site like this one a few years ago...
real tests require a Gaussmeter(DC) and/or a magnetometers(AC).

NOP test it. and tell me im wrong again. :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 18, 2009, 07:45:25 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on June 18, 2009, 06:55:11 PM
i cant waite for a CLEAN GREEN WORLD WORKING IN SYNC WITH NATURE 8) 8) 8)

WE ENJOY OUR 3D TIME IN A CREATION OF HARMONY ...

8) OUR CHILDREN CRY FOR IT TO BE RESTORED ...

IST!

I would love to have a free clean source of energy for my children as well. However I can not seem to find anyone who has accomplished this task as of now. There will be no free energy movement until we find a way to clearly provide a step by step document of a device that is simple to use provides more output then input and plaster the instructions all over the internet.

As of now I do not know of any such device. Please if I am wrong can someone point me in the right direction.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on June 18, 2009, 08:29:27 PM

Quote from: electricme on June 18, 2009, 07:11:45 AM
@Jadaro2600
Iron Powders, sure can.

I will really look forward to seeing the results you get using this, as I proposed this method several months ago. :D

Here is a site in Australia, there is a really good breakdown on the different size of iron powders.
It seems they even throw some of this stuff on the breakfast cereals also. (yuk).

If I discover more, I will post their web addys also

Australia http://www.metalpowders.com.au/ironpowders/index.html
USA http://www.micrometals.com/index.html you can request samples from here
USA http://www.americanelements.com/femp.html
USA http://www.thomasnet.com/products/iron-powder-62453808-1.html

India very unusual powders
http://www.tradeindia.com/manufacturers/indianmanufacturers/iron-powder.html

Another world wide http://www.hoeganaes.com/

jim

The idea will also incorporate a sort of shielding, perhaps this type of setup will limit the EMR emitted and reduce interference - maybe even comply with FCC regulations :) .

Quote from: jeanna on June 18, 2009, 12:40:09 PM
Hi jadaro,

I bought some magnetite powder last fall. I do not have the link handy, but if you want I will look for it. I would think magnetite would work really well. hmmm... ;)

jeanna

Magnetite seems like an interesting substance for testing.

Quote from: stprue on June 18, 2009, 12:52:56 PM
You can get Iron filings from edmund scientific.com

Thankyou for those links, all of you.

I'm limited for resources at the moment - It's also very hot here, so anything I do is on a small scale.

I was considering the mobius style coil ( if you can call it that ) encased in ferrite powder. I could test it before and after the proceedure. Any tips?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 18, 2009, 09:03:23 PM

Quote from: altrez on June 18, 2009, 04:51:14 PM
@all

I plan to test that theory with a controlled experiment.

... I really want to understand the goal of the project. ...
-Altrez

I like controlled experiments.
I am not sure it is time to test the fluoro tubes yet, but if you can light one and hold the light on for 4 hours=i evening / solar charge from 1 day, for instance, and you are not smiling, well,

I think it is a hot humid day in the east.

As far as the goal is concerned...
We are all different. We all have different goals even if we can agree on the broader ones, so, I don't think this makes any difference what the goal of this project is.
As a matter of fact, on page one, Pirate wanted help making and maybe understanding what the heck this thing is. And here we are 600 pages later.
I have sure learned a lot. I know a lot more about how this works than I did last December.

Quote
Ok perhaps I simply do not understand what is truly going on with the JT. However I do not believe without some hard evidence that 1 AA battery can light a 20 watt tube to full brightness no matter what type of JT winding you use.

So what?
A fluoro tube won't light to full brightness after it gets old either, no matter what kind of mains outlet you plug it into.
If I can see well enough to read at night which I can with my jtc's then why should I quibble?

QuoteThe numbers just do not add up. 1.5 volts at 2.5 amps = 4 watts for 1 hour under perfect conditions. So it is possible to light a 4 watt tube. Now perhaps the numbers on the tubes lie and one really does not need the full 20 watts of power to achieve full brightness.

They do not add up.
We have been sold a bill of goods. So now what are we going to do about it? complain?
I thnk we are doing a lot about it myself.

I personally know 10 people who are completely jazzed that they have learned how to make a joule thief and one with a secondary.
I know one of them is now using his to light his little house and read by it at night.
wow.

He and the rest of them are preparing to teach a class so their friends will all know how...

So, my question is this,
How many people can you gather up to teach this to?
We could all teach 5 to 10 people and ask them to teach 5 to 10 themselves. Why not give THAT a try?

Want some help with that scope of yours?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on June 18, 2009, 09:16:01 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 17, 2009, 12:51:27 AM
@nop

I don't know why it works but i got a feeling that having both sides of the coil about the same power makes for a greater field , not one week and other strong , if you take a magnet and kill one side all you are left with is a piece of metal , both sides are important. So to conclude the field stronger because its equal on both side, but technically weaker on one end and stronger on the other then regular , balance , ying yang

I did not lift any paper clip i don't have any !

@Jeanna

Not yet , but i will , i started working a bit , so i could keep this up , maybe find a scope and a way to get some super caps .

Also by now i know why i first i was thinking that the freq was going up when the base resistance was going down ! The sound is confusing it going higher with lower freq.

Mark

Edit i am also finishing testing this baby! Quick peek !
Its all in the coil design. Then i will reverse the winding directing at midway.

MK1 as you are doing now what i recently have tried you will find that the tesla windings are a double edged sword.

if a tesla is doing the creating of a magnetic current then yes it is truely a stronger field!

however if a tesla winding is used as a pickup it will be like a step down transformer, converting to amps at a very very quick rate.

there is no doubt it can be very useful however!

i hope you find a configuration that i couldnt for using a bifiliar to bifiliar and bifiliar to regular i could not find a decent config that would greatly increase performance beyond maybe 50% reduction in consumption.

it did help though!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 18, 2009, 09:17:57 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 18, 2009, 09:03:23 PM
I like controlled experiments.
I am not sure it is time to test the fluoro tubes yet, but if you can light one and hold the light on for 4 hours=i evening / solar charge from 1 day, for instance, and you are not smiling, well,

I think it is a hot humid day in the east.

As far as the goal is concerned...
We are all different. We all have different goals even if we can agree on the broader ones, so, I don't think this makes any difference what the goal of this project is.
As a matter of fact, on page one, Pirate wanted help making and maybe understanding what the heck this thing is. And here we are 600 pages later.
I have sure learned a lot. I know a lot more about how this works than I did last December.So what?
A fluoro tube won't light to full brightness after it gets old either, no matter what kind of mains outlet you plug it into.
If I can see well enough to read at night which I can with my jtc's then why should I quibble?
They do not add up.
We have been sold a bill of goods. So now what are we going to do about it? complain?
I thnk we are doing a lot about it myself.

I personally know 10 people who are completely jazzed that they have learned how to make a joule thief and one with a secondary.
I know one of them is now using his to light his little house and read by it at night.
wow.

He and the rest of them are preparing to teach a class so their friends will all know how...

So, my question is this,
How many people can you gather up to teach this to?
We could all teach 5 to 10 people and ask them to teach 5 to 10 themselves. Why not give THAT a try?

Want some help with that scope of yours?

jeanna

I can always use help with the scope :) And as always much appreciated. And to be perfectly clear to date I have gave away 10 JTs with full documentation on how it was made.

And have also shown 3 people by hand how to make one and where to get more parts.

The purposes of my post is to try to take my understanding to the next level.

Take Care,

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 18, 2009, 09:47:11 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on June 18, 2009, 03:25:31 PM
@ STPURE ....

YOU ARE A GOOD EXPAIRMENTER IF YOU GET A MOT ILL TEACH U ALL SOMETHING ...

OK

RIGHT HERE RIGHT NOW !!

;D

IST!

WHAT YA SAY .... I NEED SOME ONE TO GET A MOT ... THERE INSIDE THE MOT YOU FIND 2 COILS CLOSE IN MASS LOW INDUCTANCE AND HIGH INDUCTANCE ... HOOK IT UP IN A 1 WIRE CONFIG COLLECT THE BIG COLAPSE ... IN THE DRIVEING CAP .... YOU THEN CAN CLOSE THE LOOP ... ITS A BALLANCEING ACT .. :D

I HAVE A VID ON YOUTUBE SHOWING IT .... ;) un closed loop

BTW GUESS WHAT .... BOOM BOOM POW..... ;D WILL I AM .... DROP THA BEAT NOW!!!!!!!

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7624.0

O JUST A LIL BLIND TO MY EYE .... ;)

EYE ST!

IST

How are you suggesting we power this ?

Just for kicks I wired up my mot as a JT coil
On my mot there is 2 windings ......the low voltage winding is much heavier wire than the high voltage winding ........there are only 2 connections to the low voltage .........3 to the high
The HV has 2 white and one red .......it turns out that the red is connected to the core of the mot . .......
When I connected the HV and LV coils together with a jumper then hooked it up as a normal JT It fired right up .
A cap in the tank seems to make it transfer more power .......

It must have very sharp spikes ........ with a cap even just a .01 uf my when it is adjusted to make the array blink I can hear a snapping sound coming from my array
Correction it is coming from my alligator clip

It is arcing

This thing may have the ability to recharge the battery with no other coils
With the Jesus charger the battery voltage rises when I adjust the pot for low draw

It also seems to eat LEDs
I notices some of the LEDs in my array were VERY bright the rest were either very dim or not coming on at all .
Now after running a while none of them are coming on ........and the LED on my JT board is shot too .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 18, 2009, 09:56:49 PM

Quote from: altrez on June 18, 2009, 09:17:57 PM
And have also shown 3 people by hand how to make one and where to get more parts.

The purposes of my post is to try to take my understanding to the next level.

Fabulous!

The reason I opened the ac thread next door is to explore how to set up this jt to make usable ac power. The 2 threads next door to each other ought to make it easy to have the idea feed for everyone in all directions.

We have just begun.
Did your EE friend push you hard last week?
We are charting new territory and that is never really fast or easy.(But it is always fun.)

I appreciate the idea of well documented.
I have been trying to do that too.

good stuff.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 18, 2009, 10:06:08 PM

Quote from: stprue on June 18, 2009, 03:32:38 PM
Thank you for your reply. This is very similar to what I have been thinking about but only with a JT w/o secondaries. I have 2 speaker inductor coils that I think I will need to play around with. I am currently using the biggo coil and have good voltage coming from it, so now I need to re-change this voltage into something different! Gary, do you think that striving for higher voltages is a good thing? To me it does because the more voltage you can get out of a JT running of a AA the more voltage you can transform!

@ Pirate

Empty voltage!!!

What are your thoughts on this because to me and what I have seen in your experiments a maxcap/supercap/ultracap can put this so called empty voltage to preform work?

stprue

I am not sure what you mean by striving for higher voltages .

I think it is good to have the knowledge to build a JT to provide what ever voltage is required for the job ...... reaching a higher voltage itself is not important ....... what reaching that voltage might mean as far as the ability to get something done means alot

I am not sure that I believe in empty voltage .......I just brought it up as a possibility that might explain what I am seeing ......the battery voltage goes up for a while ....then it starts falling

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 18, 2009, 10:11:16 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on June 18, 2009, 09:16:01 PM
MK1 as you are doing now what i recently have tried you will find that the tesla windings are a double edged sword.

if a tesla is doing the creating of a magnetic current then yes it is truely a stronger field!

however if a tesla winding is used as a pickup it will be like a step down transformer, converting to amps at a very very quick rate.

there is no doubt it can be very useful however!

i hope you find a configuration that i couldnt for using a bifiliar to bifiliar and bifiliar to regular i could not find a decent config that would greatly increase performance beyond maybe 50% reduction in consumption.

it did help though!

@Ak

Hi , don't worry if you mention something and don't get feedback, just mention it again and again. But i can tell you one thing i read everything , and got one of those good and quick memory stick.

I have tried the bi-tesla on pickup coil , i did not get the lower voltage , but it did not show any improvement , But using it one the jt side is different .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 18, 2009, 10:14:22 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 18, 2009, 09:47:11 PM
IST

How are you suggesting we power this ?

Just for kicks I wired up my mot as a JT coil
On my mot there is 2 windings ......the low voltage winding is much heavier wire than the high voltage winding ........there are only 2 connections to the low voltage .........3 to the high
The HV has 2 white and one red .......it turns out that the red is connected to the core of the mot . .......
When I connected the HV and LV coils together with a jumper then hooked it up as a normal JT It fired right up .
A cap in the tank seems to make it transfer more power .......

It must have very sharp spikes ........ with a cap even just a .01 uf my when it is adjusted to make the array blink I can hear a snapping sound coming from my array
Correction it is coming from my alligator clip

It is arcing

This thing may have the ability to recharge the battery with no other coils
With the Jesus charger the battery voltage rises when I adjust the pot for low draw

It also seems to eat LEDs
I notices some of the LEDs in my array were VERY bright the rest were either very dim or not coming on at all .
Now after running a while none of them are coming on ........and the LED on my JT board is shot too .

gary

Why not use a triac and neon , 80 v pulse , chose the cap for voltage or amp.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 18, 2009, 10:16:18 PM

Quote from: stprue on June 18, 2009, 03:32:38 PM
Thank you for your reply. This is very similar to what I have been thinking about but only with a JT w/o secondaries. I have 2 speaker inductor coils that I think I will need to play around with. I am currently using the biggo coil and have good voltage coming from it, so now I need to re-change this voltage into something different! Gary, do you think that striving for higher voltages is a good thing? To me it does because the more voltage you can get out of a JT running of a AA the more voltage you can transform!

@ Pirate

Empty voltage!!!

What are your thoughts on this because to me and what I have seen in your experiments a maxcap/supercap/ultracap can put this so called empty voltage to preform work?

Well, you have all ready stated the reasons for my opinion. When this issue came up either here, or on youtube, (or both) all I can say is that this "empty voltage" can be made to do work as I, and many others, have been able to do so. My college physics professor said basically the same thing about "static" electricity not ever being able to perform work as it is static. I have since proved him wrong to my satisfaction and then later saw Dr. Walter Lewin's (from MIT Physics Department) experiments which also prove my guy was incorrect. Many forms of electricity can be captured in a cap (supercap or ultracap) and easily be made to do work.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 18, 2009, 10:24:08 PM

Quote from: altrez on June 18, 2009, 07:45:25 PM
I would love to have a free clean source of energy for my children as well. However I can not seem to find anyone who has accomplished this task as of now. There will be no free energy movement until we find a way to clearly provide a step by step document of a device that is simple to use provides more output then input and plaster the instructions all over the internet.

As of now I do not know of any such device. Please if I am wrong can someone point me in the right direction.

-Altrez

Try an earth battery, or 2 or 3. This is totally free and clean energy. All of the ones I have been working with so far are very, very small ones...but they still work. if I had access to grant money, I could run my house from these alone, I am convinced of it. Of course, I would also add solar and wind just because they are there, and I can sell the extra power back to the electric company at retail prices, which is the law here in Kentucky. One could even make a power farm using all of these techniques and make a good living making free energy for folks. It would all have to be scaled up of course, which I believe is totally possible from what I have observed in my experiments.

And yes, harnessing the power in a tornado would be very good as well. That may be a few years off however, ha ha.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 18, 2009, 10:28:22 PM

@ altrez

Quote from: altrez on June 18, 2009, 07:47:43 AM
So my question is simply this. Is there any real reason to keep pushing the voltage up? And if so why? What are you the experimenter trying to accomplish? What do you think will happen? I know I have a 900.000 volt stun gun and it will not light a 20 watt tube at full brightness so is the goal of this to try and hit millions of volts and if so what then?

The output voltage is a function of the load impedance as you will see if you use a 100 ohm resistor at the output of the pickup coil and measure the voltage across it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 18, 2009, 10:29:03 PM

Quote from: altrez on June 18, 2009, 04:51:14 PM

Thank you all so very much for the feed back. I really want to understand the goal of the project. Is it to reach OU? If so how? I do not think anyone has went OU yet. Or at least has not proved it considering there are tons of prizes that would go to the first person to do so.

-Altrez

Altrez

Tons of prizes?

I don't think that there are all that many real prizes

If skeptics offer a prize it is only bait to lure into a trap to be publicly discredited.
True skeptics will explain away any OU even if the proof is right in front of them ........

From what I have seen scientists today have little honesty ........their studies prove what ever they are paid to prove . If a skeptic is set on proving you wrong ..... that is what he will do .....even if you are right
If people are setting up prizes just to find people to discredit they make the rules ......they own the contest ....... they have the final say .

If you want to try for a prize ........check it out carefully before you sign up .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 18, 2009, 10:30:34 PM

Quote from: altrez on June 18, 2009, 04:51:14 PM
@all

Ok perhaps I simply do not understand what is truly going on with the JT. However I do not believe without some hard evidence that 1 AA battery can light a 20 watt tube to full brightness no matter what type of JT winding you use.

The numbers just do not add up. 1.5 volts at 2.5 amps = 4 watts for 1 hour under perfect conditions. So it is possible to light a 4 watt tube. Now perhaps the numbers on the tubes lie and one really does not need the full 20 watts of power to achieve full brightness.

I plan to test that theory with a controlled experiment.

Thank you all so very much for the feed back. I really want to understand the goal of the project. Is it to reach OU? If so how? I do not think anyone has went OU yet. Or at least has not proved it considering there are tons of prizes that would go to the first person to do so.

-Altrez

You are missing the Point of this . a 20 watt rating is the filament wattage not the light output . 20 watts is what it takes for the HEATERS on the bulb . we dont use HEATERS with JT AC . We ionize the gas without Heating it . there for we can light a so called "20 watt" floro because the jt will make the gas glow and emmit UV and the light will come from the Florescence coating on the inside of the tube . we don't need WATTS to do this . we need VOLTAGE to Make the GAS IN THE TUBE IONIZE therefor emmiting UV .
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 18, 2009, 10:34:29 PM

Hey, one more quick thought on the "empty" electricity subject. In the early stages of learning about electricity, we are all taught the comparison of water flowing in a pipe. this analogy holds up pretty well for a while and is helpful to picture what may be going on.

Well, if volts are the pressure, and amps are the flow rate, gallons/minute, I have an example for you. Have you ever seen a water cutting machine? These were pretty new when I had my machining company about 16 years ago. They take a fine diameter stream of water at very, very high pressure, and they can cut a 1" piece of steel like it is butter. Now, the flow rate for this device is very low (low amps?) and yet it does something incredible. I may be pushing the "water in a pipe" analogy a little too far here but, in my mind this shows what can be done with mostly volts.

I hope this makes sense.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 18, 2009, 10:38:04 PM

Hi everybody,
I posted this next door. I thought I would share it here too.:

I was looking around for help with inductors today and found 2 calculation sites.

I like the first one better, but they are both probably great.

http://www.66pacific.com/calculators/coil_calc.aspx (http://www.66pacific.com/calculators/coil_calc.aspx)
and

http://www.daycounter.com/Calculators/ (http://www.daycounter.com/Calculators/)

The progression looks good on the 66pacific site.
If you start with your coil you get the henries then you plunk that result into the next one.

have a look,

jeanna

edit.
That is a great analogy, Bill.
I really like that.
It makes the point very nicely that you can do something entirely unheard of using the elements you have had at your disposal all along!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 18, 2009, 10:41:41 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 18, 2009, 09:47:11 PM
IST

How are you suggesting we power this ?

Just for kicks I wired up my mot as a JT coil
On my mot there is 2 windings ......the low voltage winding is much heavier wire than the high voltage winding ........there are only 2 connections to the low voltage .........3 to the high
The HV has 2 white and one red .......it turns out that the red is connected to the core of the mot . .......
When I connected the HV and LV coils together with a jumper then hooked it up as a normal JT It fired right up .
A cap in the tank seems to make it transfer more power .......

It must have very sharp spikes ........ with a cap even just a .01 uf my when it is adjusted to make the array blink I can hear a snapping sound coming from my array
Correction it is coming from my alligator clip

It is arcing

This thing may have the ability to recharge the battery with no other coils
With the Jesus charger the battery voltage rises when I adjust the pot for low draw

It also seems to eat LEDs
I notices some of the LEDs in my array were VERY bright the rest were either very dim or not coming on at all .
Now after running a while none of them are coming on ........and the LED on my JT board is shot too .

gary

Welcome to the DEAD LED SOCIETY :) Now we know we have to put them in series instead of parallel . The mot Increases AMPS if you notice also . Its a cool Device and i pick every microwave up that i see . You can use the TABLE motor as a Generator also .
@altrez get one and make a jt out of it and you will see also . Hey try this . just take a one volt cell and short it with a wire and watch the spark . tiny then take the two primary wires and spark a 1 volt battery dead short . look at the BIG BLUE SPARK now . Its 100 times as big in my opinion .
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 18, 2009, 11:06:22 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 18, 2009, 10:38:04 PM
Hi everybody,
I posted this next door. I thought I would share it here too.:

I was looking around for help with inductors today and found 2 calculation sites.

I like the first one better, but they are both probably great.

http://www.66pacific.com/calculators/coil_calc.aspx (http://www.66pacific.com/calculators/coil_calc.aspx)
and

http://www.daycounter.com/Calculators/ (http://www.daycounter.com/Calculators/)

The progression looks good on the 66pacific site.
If you start with your coil you get the henries then you plunk that result into the next one.

have a look,

jeanna

edit.
That is a great analogy, Bill.
I really like that.
It makes the point very nicely that you can do something entirely unheard of using the elements you have had at your disposal all along!

Jeanna:

Thank you. I remember reading in one of my Tesla books that once, Mark Twain (Samuel Clemons) went to Tesla's lab, which he did often, and it was very late at night. Twain described what he saw in great detail. He said Tesla went into the dark lab and switched on a small device and suddenly, the entire lab was lit up as bright as day. He described evacuated tubes positioned all over the lab that were lit up very brightly giving the illusion of daylight. To me, this sounds a lot like floro tubes being driven by high voltage and yes, high freq. He went on to say that no wires were attached to these tubes and Tesla even picked up a tube, and walked about the lab with it and it remained very bright no matter where he walked.

This is why I believe that our higher and higher volts matter on the JT experiments. I really believe we will be able to do even more amazing things at higher volts and higher freqs.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 18, 2009, 11:22:41 PM

I also wanted to add that Free said his tube was about 30% of full brightness, I too would (and may have) described my one and two 48" tubes lit from the Fuji as about 30%. I think this is a good estimate made from the hip. Maybe a little more, maybe a little less but this is close in my opinion.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 18, 2009, 11:38:24 PM

funny the mark twain chat ... lol

i herd much twain chat ... l8tly

i bet they had some good chats ...

ist

now where is ed hideing ... :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 19, 2009, 12:07:21 AM

@ist

If he is around , let me tell you he can't hide this time around ,the temple of love !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 19, 2009, 12:14:45 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 19, 2009, 12:07:21 AM
@ist

If he is around , let me tell you he can't hide this time around ,the temple of love !

peace bro were all in this togather ... :)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on June 19, 2009, 01:13:32 AM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on June 18, 2009, 07:43:00 PM
NOP test it. and tell me im wrong again. :)

you can be sure i will when i get the proper tool.
i don't have $250 for a gaussmeter.
but i think i could use a milligram scale($40) to get the "pulls" measurements values.
the scale will be usefull to me for other things too.

not to prove you right or wrong.
but to clear my own mind on the subject.

here is what i expect of those tests:
i stick to what i said: "same current strenght = same mag field strenght".
and what is doubled is the capacitance.

we can make coils in whitch the same current is fighting its own self and we can make coils in whitch the current will not fight with itself.
sure, if it is fighting against itself your measurements will be lower.
the measurements will be what is left of the fight.
but even in a fight case, the field strenght = amps strenght, it it simply nulling itself.

what are the coil's configurations in whitch the current fight itself and whitch are those that won't.
that is the real question.

for mag field creation coils, do not wind a second layer backward over the first one.
that was my initial mistake when i first done that experiment...

@jeanna
120 volts input ballast output 7.5 KV

the breackdown voltage is the voltage needed for the neon tubes to start conducting.
once they start conducting their resistance is reduce tremenducely.
see Jaccob's ladder experiment.
even if the discharge initialy start at the smallest gap space, it will climb up to where the air is the more ionized.

@all
someone disassembled a scanner lately ?
i found nice things in a broken one.
tiny neons tube and their source circuits. :)

the circuits are working with 12 volts but i think my other scanner should work on 5 volts as the power source of it is USB.
those neons do light fully on most of my jts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 19, 2009, 01:15:50 AM

@ Resonanceman,

Quote from: resonanceman on June 18, 2009, 12:50:02 PM
If you assume that current teachings about
how things work are accureate and complete .......there is no reason to experiment.

I believe that the curriculum in our collages have been tweaked to " overlook " the 'quirks ' that could produce OU .

Back EMF or flyback is one of those things .......much is taught about how to overcome it ....... nothing is taught about how to use it to benefit us .

The induction of AC current is not exactly what we have been taught .

The JT can be used to study either of these " quirks "

I believe that the powers that be started influencing our collages around the time that Tesla was blacklisted .

We have 200 years of flawed teaching to overcome .
I am not saying that our collages are wrong in general
99 % of what they teach is right and accurate .
Most of the 1% ........the ' quirks " that could produce OU are handled by omission rather than lies
They teach how to avoid the problem ......... the problem is never really studied .

If I am right about this .........expermenting is the only moral thing to do .
We need the truth .............. we can not go on much longer with our current energy policy

gary

Gary,
I couldn't agree with you more, top answer this. ;D

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 19, 2009, 01:24:20 AM

@theNOP

Quote@jeanna
120 volts input ballast output 7.5 KV

the breackdown voltage is the voltage needed for the neon tubes to start conducting.
once they start conducting their resistance is reduce tremenducely.
see Jaccob's ladder experiment.
even if the discharge initialy start at the smallest gap space, it will climb up to where the air is the more ionized.

Thanks. That is much higher than I thought.
I guess we have done really well to light the fluoro with 450v!
I am encouraged

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 19, 2009, 01:27:30 AM

@ Gadgetmall
Is this a new meaning for the dictionary?

Quote from: gadgetmall on June 18, 2009, 12:54:46 PM
Try winding over 50 different torroids and you will find torridness :)

What ever that means. its in spell check and sounded good.
Gadget

Yes it does sound good, lol, and if used in the Joule Thief, it could mean "developing a sence of feeling of being on the right path in your investigations", hmmm

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 19, 2009, 01:40:26 AM

@Stprue
Arrr now this is what I have been waiting for, someone has stumbled on the next step. ;D

Quote from: stprue on June 18, 2009, 02:43:27 PM
@all

Ok...

so we can light strings of leds and flouros!

We have some high voltage DC and AC

How can we close the loop?

I'm not sure but I have a question...and this maybe a good reason to strave for ever higher voltages, but I'm not sure because I don't know evough about transformers/converters/induction ect. (The list can go on and on hehe)

Is it possible to change say 950v @ low amps to say 150v @ higher amp? Yes

My question is...

Has somebody tried to transform something along the lines of the above voltages and then re-rectified it and closed the loop of the circuit? Results? Can we use induction properties from another coil and add it to the same circuit to increase longevity or better?

:D :D :D
~Stew, you have been sitting there thinking into the dim recesses of your mind havent you!
So what happens if you have 4 outputs, say what ever volts but it has 1 amp on each output?
You have a total of 4 amps to play with.

I have already been doing this for the last 6 weeks, (not amps), but mA.
I wound a toroid with 4 strands of copper wire, each independantly has its own bridge rectifier, each DC output is driving an identical load.
I have not parallelled them all up though.

But you are on the right track.
jim

How to get amps out of a toroid? hit it hard with a amperage pulse. Dont lightly hit it, WHACK it. ;D

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 19, 2009, 01:45:23 AM

Quote from: electricme on June 19, 2009, 01:40:26 AM

How to get amps out of a toroid? hit it hard with a amperage pulse. Dont lightly hit it, WHACK it. ;D

jim

and keep your fingers back!! lol

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 19, 2009, 02:13:50 AM

Well, no big surprise, but the last circuit I posted with R=20 will light a 4 watt tube very dimly with only one power lead connected to the pickup coil. Also lights neon with only one lead to pickup coil.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 19, 2009, 02:30:30 AM

@Stprue

Quote from: stprue on June 18, 2009, 03:38:07 PM
Sorry I have to ask a dumb question...what's a MOT?

Not a dumb question, MOT's are
Microwave Oven Transformers

Would you like one? ;D I have a few more to add to the pile

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 19, 2009, 02:38:47 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on June 18, 2009, 06:23:35 PM
i was just over to a friends not long ago he says youll love this toy i have .... lol
he says its an old battery charger form the 20's so i had a lookie inside well ;D ;D ;D

i almost remembered building it :D

lol but it charges 12 12 vdc batteries at 6 amp ... has 1 huge rectifier tube in it .... ;D

so lol he has a hole pile of toys for me to play with .... ill snap a few pics of the charger it works on battery resosnance ... cource tune then fine tune ... hummmmmm

so you want to close the loop ..... got a few relays ... OOOOooooo the tesla switch ...

Ohhh IST! I would love to go and play at your friends house, all that loverly stuff from the early days of valves that glow in the dark, nice.

Now, a rectifier tube filled with mercury as the rectifying element, ha ha, yes the way to go.
The oldern days radio web sites have lots and lots of loverly tooobes. :D

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 19, 2009, 03:11:35 AM

@TheNOP,

Quote from: TheNOP on June 19, 2009, 01:13:32 AM
for mag field creation coils, do not wind a second layer backward over the first one.
@all
someone disassembled a scanner lately ?
i found nice things in a broken one.
tiny neons tube and their source circuits. :)

Thats right, you get more current out of a single layered coil.
The more single coils you put on, the lower the voltage you get back out of each coil.

perhaps I should have said, if one big secondary coil output is 256v, then you decide to replace it with 4 smaller coils, each of the smaller coils = 64v. each coil had 65 turns on it.

Well, thats how it worked out for me.

I got a couple of scanners at my feet, mabe I just might pull one apart tonight lol.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 19, 2009, 03:21:54 AM

@IST lol

Quote from: innovation_station on June 19, 2009, 01:45:23 AM
and keep your fingers back!! lol

ist!

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 19, 2009, 03:57:10 AM

@Xee2
To make the neon brighter

Quote from: xee2 on June 19, 2009, 02:13:50 AM
Well, no big surprise, but the last circuit I posted with R=20 will light a 4 watt tube very dimly with only one power lead connected to the pickup coil. Also lights neon with only one lead to pickup coil.

Raid the parlor, grab about 4 - 6 ft of alfoil and stick the "free" end to the sheet of alfoil, then lift the alfoil as high as you can in the aeither.

See if the neon gets brighter the higher you push up the alfoil.
jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 19, 2009, 09:25:55 AM

Quote from: jeanna on June 18, 2009, 09:56:49 PM
Fabulous!

The reason I opened the ac thread next door is to explore how to set up this jt to make usable ac power. The 2 threads next door to each other ought to make it easy to have the idea feed for everyone in all directions.

We have just begun.
Did your EE friend push you hard last week?
We are charting new territory and that is never really fast or easy.(But it is always fun.)

I appreciate the idea of well documented.
I have been trying to do that too.

good stuff.

jeanna

Yeah he did push me really hard and made me question a bunch of things. And its really hard to fight his logic when he has text books from the University to back everything he says up.

And he can prove everything he says with simple experiments. I just want to have something that I can bulid that will at least prove there is other energy out in the void that can be tapped.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 19, 2009, 09:36:34 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on June 18, 2009, 10:30:34 PM
You are missing the Point of this . a 20 watt rating is the filament wattage not the light output . 20 watts is what it takes for the HEATERS on the bulb . we dont use HEATERS with JT AC . We ionize the gas without Heating it . there for we can light a so called "20 watt" floro because the jt will make the gas glow and emmit UV and the light will come from the Florescence coating on the inside of the tube . we don't need WATTS to do this . we need VOLTAGE to Make the GAS IN THE TUBE IONIZE therefor emmiting UV .
Gadget

Wow I understand now. I was totally missing the point! It makes so much more sense now.

THANK YOU!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 19, 2009, 09:41:23 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 18, 2009, 10:24:08 PM
Try an earth battery, or 2 or 3. This is totally free and clean energy. All of the ones I have been working with so far are very, very small ones...but they still work. if I had access to grant money, I could run my house from these alone, I am convinced of it. Of course, I would also add solar and wind just because they are there, and I can sell the extra power back to the electric company at retail prices, which is the law here in Kentucky. One could even make a power farm using all of these techniques and make a good living making free energy for folks. It would all have to be scaled up of course, which I believe is totally possible from what I have observed in my experiments.

And yes, harnessing the power in a tornado would be very good as well. That may be a few years off however, ha ha.

Bill

Hey Bill,

I live in Kentucky as well :) I plan to order an earth battery kit from Gadget just as soon as I can get some extra cash. My daughter needed braces and well they do not come cheap.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on June 19, 2009, 10:41:18 AM

I made a series of leds light up without connecting the end to anything, I noticed this last night when I was putting the thing together during a power outage.

It's performing similarly to the florotubes I see here on this page.

Has anyone run that loose connection to ground to see what happens? brighter or dimmer?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 19, 2009, 10:52:48 AM

@jadaro

i am happy to see you again , i have something for you , did you ever have a look at the hendershot motor. The way you make your jts will help you . try scribd .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 19, 2009, 10:58:09 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 18, 2009, 10:16:18 PM
Well, you have all ready stated the reasons for my opinion. When this issue came up either here, or on youtube, (or both) all I can say is that this "empty voltage" can be made to do work as I, and many others, have been able to do so. My college physics professor said basically the same thing about "static" electricity not ever being able to perform work as it is static. I have since proved him wrong to my satisfaction and then later saw Dr. Walter Lewin's (from MIT Physics Department) experiments which also prove my guy was incorrect. Many forms of electricity can be captured in a cap (supercap or ultracap) and easily be made to do work.

Bill

This is what I think too.

Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 19, 2009, 11:39:11 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on June 19, 2009, 10:41:18 AM
I made a series of leds light up without connecting the end to anything, I noticed this last night when I was putting the thing together during a power outage.
...

I had that same thing happen on one of the 2 tier circuits. I pulled out the wire to the other leg and the led stayed on.

I was moving something at the time and instead of stopping in my tracks, I continued to move the wires and leds but then couldn't repeat it. And so, I lost the way it was connected.

So, would you be able to say what you did? or, how the circuit was made?

Thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 19, 2009, 11:43:48 AM

Quote from: electricme on June 19, 2009, 02:30:30 AM
@Stprue

Not a dumb question, MOT's are
Microwave Oven Transformers

Would you like one? ;D I have a few more to add to the pile

jim

Yes I would like one. I need to see if I still have my old college one stored away somewhere. I think our goals are similar, thank you for the comments!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 19, 2009, 11:46:33 AM

@Jeanna

Do you use a cap off the rectifier. If you don't you should try it on one of toroids. It should jump the voltage up on your biggo about 3-4 hundred volts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 19, 2009, 11:52:10 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 18, 2009, 11:06:22 PM
Jeanna:

Thank you. I remember reading in one of my Tesla books that once, Mark Twain (Samuel Clemons) went to Tesla's lab, which he did often, and it was very late at night. Twain described what he saw in great detail. He said Tesla went into the dark lab and switched on a small device and suddenly, the entire lab was lit up as bright as day. He described evacuated tubes positioned all over the lab that were lit up very brightly giving the illusion of daylight. To me, this sounds a lot like floro tubes being driven by high voltage and yes, high freq. He went on to say that no wires were attached to these tubes and Tesla even picked up a tube, and walked about the lab with it and it remained very bright no matter where he walked.

This is why I believe that our higher and higher volts matter on the JT experiments. I really believe we will be able to do even more amazing things at higher volts and higher freqs.

Bill

If this is the case why don't we just hook up our JT's to voltage multipliers? Does the freq. go down if you do this?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 19, 2009, 01:13:58 PM

Quote from: stprue on June 19, 2009, 11:46:33 AM
@Jeanna

Do you use a cap off the rectifier. If you don't you should try it on one of toroids. It should jump the voltage up on your biggo about 3-4 hundred volts.

Well, no, I don't use a rectifier.
I did get a good result when I added 2 caps in the BJT:
the battery cap of 25 uF (I goofed there I was trying to make it 100 but I did it wrong)
and
a cap at the base resistor.
Well, that is when the fluoro tube light went on the day it wouldn't go on.

I am trying to do this while keeping the secondary ac as ac. Rectifying it and storing it in a cap will stop the oscillations at this point, and I want to keep them going.

Hopefully I can do some of this with toroids I already have handy.

thank you,

jeanna
edit
You asked Bill this:

QuoteIf this is the case why don't we just hook up our JT's to voltage multipliers? Does the freq. go down if you do this?

In my experience, the frequency goes down when you raise the volts and goes up when you lower the volts.
Only a very few times have I seen this not be the case, and in all of those times, the wave was very wiggly and I do not think the scope could see it right, or I chose the wrong place for the markers to measure the frequency.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 19, 2009, 01:21:38 PM

@all

This could belong here as well. It is from the MPI Patent topic and is very interesting.

http://magneticpowerinc.com/patent.html

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 19, 2009, 01:26:35 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 19, 2009, 01:13:58 PM
Well, no, I don't use a rectifier.
I did get a good result when I added 2 caps in the BJT:
the battery cap of 25 uF (I goofed there I was trying to make it 100 but I did it wrong)
and
a cap at the base resistor.
Well, that is when the fluoro tube light went on the day it wouldn't go on.

I have never got good results from a cap at the base resistor. I must not be placing it right. Do you have any pic's of this so I can see my mistake? Does it have to be a 104 because it seems like that is what everyone is using. I think I can get my voltage up if I can place this cap right!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on June 19, 2009, 02:26:18 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on June 19, 2009, 01:13:32 AM
@all
someone disassembled a scanner lately ?
i found nice things in a broken one.
tiny neons tube and their source circuits. :)

the circuits are working with 12 volts but i think my other scanner should work on 5 volts as the power source of it is USB.
those neons do light fully on most of my jts.

yes, i posted a couple pics way back, and one not so long ago when ccfl's were asked about.

they are ccfl's not neon tubes.

the 'beerlight' uses a ccfl tube from a scanner.
yes most of the source circuits will accept a wide range of input V. i have some that will run off as little as 3.7V

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 19, 2009, 03:49:06 PM

Quote from: stprue on June 19, 2009, 01:21:38 PM
@all

This could belong here as well. It is from the MPI Patent topic and is very interesting.

http://magneticpowerinc.com/patent.html

This appears to be a fantasy device. I think the application was withdrawn.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 19, 2009, 04:01:54 PM

Quote from: stprue on June 19, 2009, 01:26:35 PM
I have never got good results from a cap at the base resistor.

I made a bunch of tests at xee's request and because I thought it would be interesting myself.
I hadn't found any advantage either for a long time.

What I decided in the end was that it had to do with the range of the system and the size of the cap, more than anything.

I usually only start to try them when the system seems really off. Sometimes it really helps, but if the volts usually go down peak to peak. after I add the cap of any size... until I get one that is perfect.

A couple of times, when I was testing a lot of these, the whole thing suddenly began to take off.

The resistor is parallel to the cap which means they could literally be sharing the same pin connection.

Does that help?

jeanna
edit
How many turns do you have on the jt and the secondary?
If you have 900v rectified, that is probably like my 450v peak to peak, isn't it?
Either way especially if you have 900 volts you are doing well.

Are you trying to light a tube and cannot?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 19, 2009, 04:17:54 PM

Quote from: stprue on June 19, 2009, 01:26:35 PM
I have never got good results from a cap at the base resistor. I must not be placing it right. Do you have any pic's of this so I can see my mistake? Does it have to be a 104 because it seems like that is what everyone is using. I think I can get my voltage up if I can place this cap right!

Stprue

I check quite a few caps ......from 10pF to 5uF

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on June 19, 2009, 04:42:20 PM

i thought you all might find this interesting.

"The interior surface of cold cathodes are capable of producing secondary electrons at a ratio greater than unity (amplification) upon electron and ion impact. For accelerating of the ions to a sufficient velocity for creating free electrons from the cathode material, cold cathode discharge lamps need higher voltages than hot cathode ones, causing a strong electric field near the cathodes."

quoted from the wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_cathode), so take it how you will...

something to keep in mind when using cold cathode lamps. ie: ccfl's, neons, HID lamps (metal halide, HPS) etc.

re: thenop's 7.5kv example for neons.
this is not really telling the whole story, which really surprises me, usually from thenop it is a much more pedantic response. it's like saying my car goes 0-60... so what, it means little without the time parameter.

anyone ask about the freq.? does anyone think that high voltage/low freq. is the way to go?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 19, 2009, 05:04:34 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on June 18, 2009, 03:25:31 PM
@ STPURE ....

YOU ARE A GOOD EXPAIRMENTER IF YOU GET A MOT ILL TEACH U ALL SOMETHING ...

OK

RIGHT HERE RIGHT NOW !!

;D

IST!

WHAT YA SAY .... I NEED SOME ONE TO GET A MOT ... THERE INSIDE THE MOT YOU FIND 2 COILS CLOSE IN MASS LOW INDUCTANCE AND HIGH INDUCTANCE ... HOOK IT UP IN A 1 WIRE CONFIG COLLECT THE BIG COLAPSE ... IN THE DRIVEING CAP .... YOU THEN CAN CLOSE THE LOOP ... ITS A BALLANCEING ACT .. :D

I HAVE A VID ON YOUTUBE SHOWING IT .... ;) un closed loop

BTW GUESS WHAT .... BOOM BOOM POW..... ;D WILL I AM .... DROP THA BEAT NOW!!!!!!!

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7624.0

O JUST A LIL BLIND TO MY EYE .... ;)

EYE ST!

Has anyone made a JT out of a MOT?

I have one running now ........it is lighting a CFL tube
It is not bright .........but it is lit
I am using a 3N3055 and a Jesus charger
The light is lit up at .04 A to .25 A after .25A it starts flashing then goes out .
Because of the Jesus charger there is very little draw from the battery .
I have been running it for at least a half hour now on .04A The voltage on my bettery has been reading 1.206 the entire time .
I am sure with just a little feecback this can be made to self charge or hold its voltage at higher power levels .

I am going to add the schematic for the Jesus charger just in case
I hope to have a picture of my MOTJT within the hour ..

Just to be clear ............this is a basic JT made with a MOT rather than a hand wound toroid

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 19, 2009, 05:19:06 PM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on June 19, 2009, 04:42:20 PM

anyone ask about the freq.? does anyone think that high voltage/low freq. is the way to go?

I was trying, Wilby,

The thing is that as the voltage goes higher the frequency drops.
By the time I got a toroid large enough to hold enough turns to give me enough voltage the thing was a little slow anyway, and by the time I got the volts up to 450 which eventually lit the light, the frequency was 5.6KHz.

Now, that is still high frequency. It is a lot less high than many of my other toroids so it seems slow and low.
It seems, like the caps range thing everything needs to be put into balance to work well.

Anyway, with a given toroid and a certain amount of turns (necessary for the voltage) there is little one can do about the frequency. It will go down as the voltage goes up.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on June 19, 2009, 05:20:47 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 19, 2009, 05:04:34 PM
Has anyone made a JT out of a MOT?

I have one running now ........it is lighting a CFL tube
It is not bright .........but it is lit
I am using a 3N3055 and a Jesus charger
The light is lit up at .04 A to .25 A after .25A it starts flashing then goes out .
Because of the Jesus charger there is very little draw from the battery .
I have been running it for at least a half hour now on .04A The voltage on my bettery has been reading 1.206 the entire time .
I am sure with just a little feecback this can be made to self charge or hold its voltage at higher power levels .

I am going to add the schematic for the Jesus charger just in case
I hope to have a picture of my MOTJT within the hour ..

Just to be clear ............this is a basic JT made with a MOT rather than a hand wound toroid

gary

Congratulations @resonanceman !

I must clarify that the improvement 2 is just for running a pulse motor. If you add it to the charger it will not make any visible change, but running a pulse motor, the improvement 2 will make the motor to go faster.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 19, 2009, 05:56:24 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on June 19, 2009, 05:20:47 PM
Congratulations @resonanceman !

I must clarify that the improvement 2 is just for running a pulse motor. If you add it to the charger it will not make any visible change, but running a pulse motor, the improvement 2 will make the motor to go faster.

Jesus

Thanks Jesus
I did try adding the cap for improvement 2 ........ you are right . It did not help

The basic charger works great
Oh...........if I adjust it so that the CFL is no longer lit ........it charges the battery

:)

Here is a picture of my MOT JT
This CFL was suposed to replace a 100 W bulb
I tried running this circuit with 2 AAs The light was no brighter untill I tried adding a cap to the base ..... in general the larger the cap I tried the brighter the light was ..........and the more power it drew .
Another disadvantage of using a cap is the range it works at gets very narrow .
I do not think it would run unattended very long with a cap

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on June 19, 2009, 06:08:03 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 19, 2009, 05:56:24 PM
Thanks Jesus
I did try adding the cap for improvement 2 ........ you are right . It did not help

The basic charger works great
Oh...........if I adjust it so that the CFL is no longer lit ........it charges the battery

:)

Here is a picture of my MOT JT
This CFL was suposed to replace a 100 W bulb

gary

Yes it is just like that its behaviour. If you use the light it makes the battery to last longer, but discharges slowly anyway. When the light is out and the circuit is running it charges the battery.

Can you believe if I tell you that mine does not want to work anymore for unknown reasons?

BTW
Can you draw a sketch of the MOT connections to the circuit? That is just in case I find a microwave and take out the MOT to replicate.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 19, 2009, 06:11:29 PM

thank you gary ....

:)

awesome job

we can do a few things now ... i reccomend a neo zap from the out of that mot to the input of another to amp the effect a neo zap spark gap should work well

:)

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 19, 2009, 06:22:10 PM

@Jadaro2600

Quote from: jadaro2600 on June 19, 2009, 10:41:18 AM
I made a series of leds light up without connecting the end to anything, I noticed this last night when I was putting the thing together during a power outage.

It's performing similarly to the florotubes I see here on this page.

Has anyone run that loose connection to ground to see what happens? brighter or dimmer?

Nice work, lightning up the LEDs by just 1 connection.

Give this a thought, when you see a tesla coil fire and all the lightning discharges appears, the lightning that goes into the sky seems to peter out without grounding, where or what does it make contact with to do it?

does it attatch itself at the aeather? I think so

I think this is what is hapenning with single wire JT setups, but we dont make the lightning, lol

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on June 19, 2009, 06:29:08 PM

jeanna
have a look at the transformers at the top of this page
http://www.amazing1.com/transformers.htm

notice there are no toroids. ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 19, 2009, 06:46:51 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on June 19, 2009, 06:11:29 PM
thank you gary ....

:)

awesome job

we can do a few things now ... i reccomend a neo zap from the out of that mot to the input of another to amp the effect a neo zap spark gap should work well

:)

ist

IST

If I remember right your Neo Zap is a spark gap with one of sides of the gap a Neo magnet

It will take a while to get another MOT ....... I have 2 possible doner microwaves ......

I have not taken them apart because they both still work .

I can see how adding another MOT would raise the voltage .........but will it add more power ?
At this point I would rather have more power and lower voltage .......like 12 V

I can already get a 1/8 in spark with this setup
I do not want to try to use a volt meter on it .......I noticed a ticking sound when I had my meter hooked up to it ( and hit resonance ) ....... it was arcing somewhere in the meter .
I think the meter is OK .....but I don't want to risk burning it out

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 19, 2009, 07:04:45 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 19, 2009, 04:01:54 PM
I made a bunch of tests at xee's request and because I thought it would be interesting myself.
I hadn't found any advantage either for a long time.

What I decided in the end was that it had to do with the range of the system and the size of the cap, more than anything.

I usually only start to try them when the system seems really off. Sometimes it really helps, but if the volts usually go down peak to peak. after I add the cap of any size... until I get one that is perfect.

A couple of times, when I was testing a lot of these, the whole thing suddenly began to take off.

The resistor is parallel to the cap which means they could literally be sharing the same pin connection.

Does that help?

jeanna
edit
How many turns do you have on the jt and the secondary?
If you have 900v rectified, that is probably like my 450v peak to peak, isn't it?
Either way especially if you have 900 volts you are doing well.

Are you trying to light a tube and cannot?

Yes this helps, thank you...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 19, 2009, 07:06:21 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 19, 2009, 04:17:54 PM
Stprue

I check quite a few caps ......from 10pF to 5uF

gary

I, know I really need to expand my cap library

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 19, 2009, 07:19:19 PM

@GARY

CAN YOU GET IT TO COMPOUND IN THE DRIVEING CAP?

?

LIKE THE VIDEO ON YOUTUBE ... IF SO TIC TIC BANG TIC TIC BANG .....

IM NO UP TO DATE EE IM AFRAID I HAD TO RELEARN ALL ... THE MORE CAPS YOU PUT THERE THE QUICKER THEY CHARGE THEN DISCHARGE SEPERATLY ...

IST

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 19, 2009, 07:34:54 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on June 19, 2009, 06:08:03 PM
Yes it is just like that its behaviour. If you use the light it makes the battery to last longer, but discharges slowly anyway. When the light is out and the circuit is running it charges the battery.

Can you believe if I tell you that mine does not want to work anymore for unknown reasons?

BTW
Can you draw a sketch of the MOT connections to the circuit? That is just in case I find a microwave and take out the MOT to replicate.

Jesus

Jesus

The schematic would be a basic JT

Here is a picture of the connections

The yellow wires are my normal wires for connecting my coils
The 2 yellow on the right are connected to the low voltage coil ..... ( heavier wire )
You can see the other yellow wire connected to the high voltage winding ( thin wire )
The white wire replaces twisting the 2 wires together on a regular JT
Sorry the black wire is so hard to see ....... it is connected to a tab on the core .......... ( grounded ).
The red wire coming out of the MOT is the secondary ......it is internally grounded on the other end ........

I hope you find a MOT

:)

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 19, 2009, 07:45:36 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on June 19, 2009, 07:19:19 PM
@GARY

CAN YOU GET IT TO COMPOUND IN THE DRIVEING CAP?

?

LIKE THE VIDEO ON YOUTUBE ... IF SO TIC TIC BANG TIC TIC BANG .....

IM NO UP TO DATE EE IM AFRAID I HAD TO RELEARN ALL ... THE MORE CAPS YOU PUT THERE THE QUICKER THEY CHARGE THEN DISCHARGE SEPERATLY ...

IST

IST

Not sure what you mean by the driving cap
Do you mean the cap used in the tank going to the base ?

I remember some of that video from quite a while back .
My connedtion is so bad right now when I try to watch videos I can only get 3 or 4 words at a time .
When I try to download them and watch I get a message that they are corrupted

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 19, 2009, 07:53:41 PM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on June 19, 2009, 06:29:08 PM
jeanna
have a look at the transformers at the top of this page
http://www.amazing1.com/transformers.htm

notice there are no toroids. ;)

Volume discounts available!
I particularly like this one

Quote2000 volt model at 10ma intended for light sabers

;D

Actually thanks, but...

What I need to do is wrap a toroid with as many winds as I can fit. I did this with a little one, a 3/8" one with 74 turns secondary and got 68 volts. That would lite a 20 led spotlight if I wanted to make one of those. Hmm not a bad idea.

I should do that with one just a bit bigger. Xee can light a tube with a 2 inch toroid wound like that. I guess there is no end to the things left to try.

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 19, 2009, 07:58:27 PM

Quote from: stprue on June 19, 2009, 07:06:21 PM
I, know I really need to expand my cap library

If you only want to get a few, the ones I keep handy are 125pF .1uF and 1uF
These will show you alot about what is going on ........sometimes changing caps makes little difference over all ....... when it seems to make a difference I get out more caps to try to fine tune a little

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on June 19, 2009, 10:12:34 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 19, 2009, 07:53:41 PM
Volume discounts available!
I particularly like this one
;D

Actually thanks, but...

What I need to do is wrap a toroid with as many winds as I can fit. I did this with a little one, a 3/8" one with 74 turns secondary and got 68 volts. That would lite a 20 led spotlight if I wanted to make one of those. Hmm not a bad idea.

I should do that with one just a bit bigger. Xee can light a tube with a 2 inch toroid wound like that. I guess there is no end to the things left to try.

thanks,

jeanna

yes, light sabers are cool ;D

i understand there is an affection here with the toroid, i guess what i am trying to say is that toroids are not the only core types available and for high freq. you hardly see them used.
i know i'm stating the obvious, but there seems to be an obsession with toroids save the couple aircores and the helmholtz efforts.

@all
do your toroid jt's perform better than an e core, barrel core or air core? more light? less draw?
i'm asking this because i don't see the toroid performing better in my jt's.

if the answer is "toroids are cool", i guess i'm down with that ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on June 20, 2009, 02:46:29 AM

Toroids are a pain in the rear. They may be functional, but they have a sort of time-consuming power to them.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on June 20, 2009, 06:40:36 AM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 19, 2009, 07:34:54 PM

Jesus

The schematic would be a basic JT

Here is a picture of the connections

The yellow wires are my normal wires for connecting my coils
The 2 yellow on the right are connected to the low voltage coil ..... ( heavier wire )
You can see the other yellow wire connected to the high voltage winding ( thin wire )
The white wire replaces twisting the 2 wires together on a regular JT
Sorry the black wire is so hard to see ....... it is connected to a tab on the core .......... ( grounded ).
The red wire coming out of the MOT is the secondary ......it is internally grounded on the other end ........

I hope you find a MOT

:)

gary

Thank you @resonanceman !

It is difficult for me to relate words with a circuit, but because I dont have a MOT to try and ask while building, I will wait till I get one to make a new circuit relating the JT with the MOT.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 20, 2009, 08:53:29 AM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on June 20, 2009, 06:40:36 AM
Thank you @resonanceman !

It is difficult for me to relate words with a circuit, but because I dont have a MOT to try and ask while building, I will wait till I get one to make a new circuit relating the JT with the MOT.

Jesus

WHen you get a MOT I think you will find it easy to make a JT from it
If you have some problems let me know

gary
Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on June 20, 2009, 09:51:12 AM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 20, 2009, 08:53:29 AM
gary

Thank you @resonanceman!
I am trying with a 120v to 12v transformer. I will make the joule thief on the 12 volt side that has three wires coming out.

If I test betwen the middle and anyone of the side wires it gives 5.99v.
If I test between the two side wires it gives 11.99v.
Meaning it has a center tap.

These measurements are with the transformer connected to the house electricity, so the voltage read is AC.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 20, 2009, 11:30:48 AM

Toroids are cool ;) and they also produce vortex magnetic flux . I got em all . the rod ferrite preforms well with just mobius on one wire and ccw on the other wire . It runs a 2n3055 way lower than it should but i have some toroids that run practically from nothing and amplify. I'm Sticking with the circle as tesla did in more than one patent because of the continuous medium verse air or rod core because i do see a difference in them . and they keep your fingers busy which is good when you get older (80- 100) , My family lives long lives . the youngest to die was 88 and the oldest was 104 . I guess thats why i have been told i look like a teenager at 52 and still get carded for Ciggs . BTW My great great grandfather smoked 4 packs a day and live for 104 years .

:)
Gadget

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 20, 2009, 12:11:40 PM

I think when you are trying to copy something which nature has done, which I think we are doing in creating electricity for our wires, we have a better shot when we copy the shape of it too. Maybe, it evolved to be the best shape.

It is the reason I think the iron core is best too.
I was astonished when someone maybe Bill said that ferrite is the form iron is in when it is mined.

You can make a toroid air core by wrapping the wires around a bendy straw, but it may not be as powerful.

Last week I took a Stubblefield coil out of the box and connected it as a joule thief and it with its linear arrangement and 360 turns gave me 3.6volts at 41.6KHz off the secondary. When I removed the core, the voltage went up a squeek to 4.5volts but the frequency plummeted to 7.5KHz. (This is as read off a secondary which may be too short.) I just do not think the air or the straight shape is much benefit.
It certainly works. I am not saying this is scientific, but it does not impress me enough to change from the reflection of the shape in nature which is the torus, to the cylinder.

Good question Wilby,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 20, 2009, 12:18:18 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 20, 2009, 08:53:29 AM

Hi Gary,
(and ist too?).

Where do you put this MOT in your joule thief circuit? Did I miss the description?

Is this a pre transformer that makes high voltage go into the joule thief?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 20, 2009, 12:38:48 PM

@all

I am Canadian , i like donuts .

Toroid there is a so simple answer , in a strait core you can easily see the magnetic flux because it has no where to go but out of the core ( its a electro magnet) , if you put a second core and coil in line with the powered one you will be able to capture voltage for the unconnected coil like a pickup , so a toroid doesn't let the flux out so easy since the poles are contained and feeding them self instead , there will always have be loses but are more then just loses there opportunities to get more...

A radio , transformer , tesla coil , are the same thing....

So this little jt is emitting radio waves i bet those with scope would witch freq to tune to.

Also tesla bifilar is just another way to call pancake coils .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 20, 2009, 01:01:15 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 20, 2009, 12:11:40 PM
I think when you are trying to copy something which nature has done, which I think we are doing in creating electricity for our wires, we have a better shot when we copy the shape of it too. Maybe, it evolved to be the best shape.

It is the reason I think the iron core is best too.
I was astonished when someone maybe Bill said that ferrite is the form iron is in when it is mined.

You can make a toroid air core by wrapping the wires around a bendy straw, but it may not be as powerful.

Last week I took a Stubblefield coil out of the box and connected it as a joule thief and it with its linear arrangement and 360 turns gave me 3.6volts at 41.6KHz off the secondary. When I removed the core, the voltage went up a squeek to 4.5volts but the frequency plummeted to 7.5KHz. (This is as read off a secondary which may be too short.) I just do not think the air or the straight shape is much benefit.
It certainly works. I am not saying this is scientific, but it does not impress me enough to change from the reflection of the shape in nature which is the torus, to the cylinder.

Good question Wilby,

jeanna

this is important

;D

jeanna do you have a neo .... you will love the result as it will ringg the next level ... ;D

please try it ....

ist!

for a setup such as this.... dc may well be prefered i would then polorize the electrofied neos...

ps a quenched spark gap is almost the same a neo zap but neo zap incorprates the spark engery and moves the magnet makeing your make and break thus eliminitating the need for the transistor or relay on the higher end ....

some of the coolest things i have done this time round were with electro and neo ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 20, 2009, 01:09:08 PM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on June 19, 2009, 06:29:08 PM
jeanna
have a look at the transformers at the top of this page
http://www.amazing1.com/transformers.htm

notice there are no toroids. ;)

Check out this!!!
http://www.amazing1.com/ion-gun.htm

Pretty cool 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on June 20, 2009, 01:09:18 PM

thanks for the replies people, this is why i love this little group here. ;D
i have been going in the high voltage/high freq. direction (only one of my jt's is toroid core and it has the lowest freq.). so i will leave the toroids to those of you who are going in the toroid direction.

side note. i am at the lake and setting up a REAC with coax cable, spark plug, big cap and a battery. i damaged my hand pretty good yesterday fighting with a boat lift so i may not get to climb the pole to put up the coax today. i will keep you guys up to date on it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 20, 2009, 01:18:52 PM

Quote from: stprue on June 20, 2009, 01:09:08 PM
Check out this!!!
http://www.amazing1.com/ion-gun.htm

Pretty cool 8)

stprue,
Do you think ion cannons will help when Darth Vadar and the empire find us here? ;D

@Ist,

I do not understand yet.

Are you saying I should stick a neo to the toroid?
I thought that raised the freq and lowered the volts.
It did on Kubikop's video, at least.

Maybe you are trying to tell me something different?

Please try again. Yes I have a few neos. but where should I stick them?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 20, 2009, 01:45:19 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 20, 2009, 01:18:52 PM
stprue,
Do you think ion cannons will help when Darth Vadar and the empire find us here? ;D

Well I was thinking more along the lines of wireless energy transfer!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 20, 2009, 02:25:58 PM

@all

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 20, 2009, 02:28:32 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on June 20, 2009, 09:51:12 AM
Thank you @resonanceman!
I am trying with a 120v to 12v transformer. I will make the joule thief on the 12 volt side that has three wires coming out.

If I test betwen the middle and anyone of the side wires it gives 5.99v.
If I test between the two side wires it gives 11.99v.
Meaning it has a center tap.

These measurements are with the transformer connected to the house electricity, so the voltage read is AC.

Jesus

Jesus

It should work just fine using the center tap ......

Let me know what kind of votltage you get .
I have a nice big transformer from a UPS that I might try one of these days .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 20, 2009, 02:33:32 PM

I WAS THINKING RUN YOUR OUTPUT THROUGH THE MAGNET ....

;D

THEN TO THE NEXT UNIT .... ON THE INPUT....

I MAY PLAY I KNOW MOST OF MY STUFF IS PACKED BUT I MAY JUST HAVE TO DIGG IT OUT ...

IM JUST SOOO SICK OF WINDING THINGS ... LOL

I CANT BRING MY HANDS TO WIND ANOTHER COIL ... :(

PLEASE TAKE THE TIME FOR SOME ANSWERS ......

25 VIDEO'S OPEN ALL EYES! TRUTH CONTAINED IN THIS VIDEO ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVSAGv4kUgk&feature=PlayList&p=1E01D0CA88336DB6&index=0

IST!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 20, 2009, 02:48:39 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 20, 2009, 12:18:18 PM
Hi Gary,
(and ist too?).

Where do you put this MOT in your joule thief circuit? Did I miss the description?

Is this a pre transformer that makes high voltage go into the joule thief?

thank you,

jeanna

Jeanna

The MOT is the JTs coils
Scroll back a few posts to reply 7470 Jesus put everything you need on one post

I suggest that anyone that makes one of these MOT JTs use extreme caution .
I do not know what voltage they produce but it is very high .
I burnt out my diode array .....its normal operating voltage was 84V
I damaged my best meter ........and got shocked right through the insulation on my alligator clip
This thing can make a spark 1/8 inch long that looks similar to the spark from an ignition coil

I guess I am lucky that the diodes I had onhand for making the Jesus charger we rated at 1000 V

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 20, 2009, 04:06:06 PM

WHO WANTS TO BUILD A UFO .... LOL

HUMMM

MAYBE A GOOD USE FOR A SELF RUNNING TESLA COIL ;) :D

IST!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaJgB3iF3oo&feature=channel

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 20, 2009, 04:38:58 PM

@gary

a spark gap of about 5 millimeter is about 10 to 15000 volts...

Mark

Edit . i also got some goodies 2 neon 120 volts and 2 12 volts one i am not sure if they are really neon i will see. 2 triac tic263m , and a 1.75 inch toroid , i will try to feed the big one and kick it at 80 volts high amp , from the bemf and pickup coil from a mk1 with dummy load toroid . and v6 relay

This may take a while ,but it may do tic tac tic tac tic tac bangggggggggggg.

http://pdf1.alldatasheet.net/datasheet-pdf/view/20145/POINN/TIC263M.html

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 20, 2009, 08:24:46 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 20, 2009, 04:38:58 PM
@gary

a spark gap of about 5 millimeter is about 10 to 15000 volts...

l

Thanks Mark

I wonder ...........does that mean I have the record here ?

:)

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 20, 2009, 08:50:32 PM

Thanks Mark,

I found this. (1cm=~3/8")

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 20, 2009, 09:37:05 PM

@gary

Well i guess you got it there , its now time to re thinks experiment safety procedures .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 20, 2009, 10:20:45 PM

@ Wilby,

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on June 20, 2009, 01:09:18 PM
side note. i am at the lake and setting up a REAC with coax cable, spark plug, big cap and a battery. i damaged my hand pretty good yesterday fighting with a boat lift so i may not get to climb the pole to put up the coax today. i will keep you guys up to date on it.

This will be interresting, I look forward to your results.

Sorry to hear you hurt your hand Wilby, hope it is not too bad and it's back to normal soon.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on June 20, 2009, 10:46:14 PM

@all

I made this circuit with a 120v to 12v ac transformer.
I tried the circuit without the charger part and the transformer does not work with one AA battery. It works with three volts.

The output is ac and is on the 120v electrical cable.
Only gave 6v ac output with 3v dc as input. The voltage was not stable.

I will try the charger part to see if I can use a AA battery. I need to get more or better diodes. The 1N4148 got broken just on the cathode mark, they just got divided by two making some tests and that was the motive my setup was not working.

The diodes were broken and in place as if they were okay.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 20, 2009, 10:58:17 PM

@Gary and All

Quote from: Mk1 on June 20, 2009, 04:38:58 PM
@gary

a spark gap of about 5 millimeter is about 10 to 15000 volts...

Mark

Edit . i also got some goodies 2 neon 120 volts and 2 12 volts one i am not sure if they are really neon i will see. 2 triac tic263m , and a 1.75 inch toroid , i will try to feed the big one and kick it at 80 volts high amp , from the bemf and pickup coil from a mk1 with dummy load toroid . and v6 relay

This may take a while ,but it may do tic tac tic tac tic tac bangggggggggggg.

http://pdf1.alldatasheet.net/datasheet-pdf/view/20145/POINN/TIC263M.html

Now get another MOT, and connect it back to back.

MOT 1 MOT 2
-------------------- -------------------------
| secondary HV Out | | secondary HV in |
| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- |
| ---------------- | out in | --------------------- |
| ---------------- | | --------------------- |
| ---------------- | | --------------------- |
| ---------------- | | --------------------- |
| ---------------- | out in | --------------------- |
| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- |
| primary | | primary LV Out |
----------------------- | | -----------------------------
IN | ---------------- | | --------------------- | out
----------------------- | | ------------------------------
| | | |
|________________| |_____________________|

Connect above MOT to JT This MOT to your LOAD

Put the output of the First MOT secondary, (which has the sparks) and put the wires into the output of the Secondary of the second MOT. (one is attatched to the frame, so the frame is now live).
To isolate the MOT frames, take BOTH the wires off the transformers where it attatches itself on the frame of the MOT, insulate the wires with a HV rated insulation.
Silecone around this where the wire comes out of the coil.

The lower voltage is output power.
Now you should have a little "grunt" to play with.

WARNING,,,,,Disclamer.
Only make this if you know what you are doing, If you don't know or understand this, then seek more advice.
If you hurt yourself, then you didn't take enough care, so don't blame me.

BE careful, it will be at voltage that may be high or low depending on how much you feed into both MOTs, it should have AMPs on the MOT2 output.

jim

EDIT *****
I suggest you get hold of the RED wires which take HV from the HV coils that goes to the tube of a TV set or a PC monitor.
These are designed to handle VHV, if you carn't get them (from junked sets) then go to the Auto electrician, and ask him for a yard/meter of HT spark plug cable.

If testing HV circuits, put one hand in you pocket at all times, and use a HV probe on the test instrument.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 20, 2009, 11:32:44 PM

This probably better data to use than sparks between spheres. Wires are more like needle points than spheres.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on June 20, 2009, 11:34:22 PM

Quote from: electricme on June 20, 2009, 10:58:17 PM
@Gary and All

Now get another MOT, and connect it back to back.

MOT 1 MOT 2
-------------------- -------------------------
| secondary HV Out | | secondary HV in |
| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- |
| ---------------- | out in | --------------------- |
| ---------------- | | --------------------- |
| ---------------- | | --------------------- |
| ---------------- | | --------------------- |
| ---------------- | out in | --------------------- |
| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- |
| primary | | primary LV Out |
----------------------- | | -----------------------------
IN | ---------------- | | --------------------- | out
----------------------- | | ------------------------------
| | | |
|________________| |_____________________|

Connect above MOT to JT This MOT to your LOAD

Put the output of the First MOT secondary, (which has the sparks) and put the wires into the output of the Secondary of the second MOT. (one is attatched to the frame, so the frame is now live).
To isolate the MOT frames, take BOTH the wires off the transformers where it attatches itself on the frame of the MOT, insulate the wires with a HV rated insulation.
Silecone around this where the wire comes out of the coil.

The lower voltage is output power.
Now you should have a little "grunt" to play with.

WARNING,,,,,Disclamer.
Only make this if you know what you are doing, If you don't know or understand this, then seek more advice.
If you hurt yourself, then you didn't, so don't blame me.

BE careful, it will be at voltage that may be high or low depending on how much you feed into both MOTs, it should have AMPs on the MOT2 output.

jim

Thank you @electricme !

I will try that eventually.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 20, 2009, 11:35:34 PM

Quote from: electricme on June 20, 2009, 10:58:17 PM
@Gary and All

Now get another MOT, and connect it back to back.

Put the output of the First MOT secondary, into the output of the Secondary of the second MOT.

Now you should have a little "grunt" to play with.

WARNING,,,,,
BE careful, it will be a voltage that you can use, it should have AMPs with it also.

jim

Thanks Jim

Have you done this already ?

The microwave that I am thinking of taking apart is much bigger than the one I got the MOT from ........ do you have any idea how size affects this circuit ?

If the wires are the same on the other MOT it looks to me like a winding can be used for feedback
If so .......it should self charge . .......if a Jesus charger is used with it too .

I will start taking the microwave apart tomorrow .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 21, 2009, 01:00:08 AM

@Resonanceman

Hi Gary and All

Quote from: resonanceman on June 20, 2009, 11:35:34 PM
Thanks Jim

Have you done this already ?

The microwave that I am thinking of taking apart is much bigger than the one I got the MOT from ........ do you have any idea how size affects this circuit ?

If the wires are the same on the other MOT it looks to me like a winding can be used for feedback
If so .......it should self charge . .......if a Jesus charger is used with it too .

I will start taking the microwave apart tomorrow .

gary
Q2 = if you feed the output into a bigger transformer, from a smaller transformer, you will not get a hi output, swap the transformers around then you will get more.
BUT, take the different size windings into consideration, if you push too much through smaller transformer windings, then it will get warm, just keep an eye on it.

Q3 = probably, you will have to check this out for your self.

Q1 = No, haven't had time to do this, only just read about it. :)

BUT, several years ago I took 2 identical transformers, a 240v light globe and a 12v 21watt car tail light globe and connected them as below.
It worked OK, The 12v Light bulb took away from the final output, but I made this setup to show a visitor how household power could be handled safely in the center of the circuit.
This circuit also shows how a Hi Volt can be reduced to a low volt, (increase in current) then transformed back to it's original supply, less the losses in the transformers, 12v bulb, wire etc.

But put a switch across the 12v bulb and you get a higher output from the 2nd transformer, but still not the same as was fed into the first transformer.

jim

Somehow I tangled up inside your post, sorry.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 21, 2009, 01:27:01 AM

@All
Here is 3 jpgs of the last post showing the MOT transformer input and outputs

This MOT has a Primary (240v AC input)
It has a "control" monitoring flat coil, its the "thick" red insulated wire.
Then the HV output coil.

0985 = One side of the MOT showing the 3 coils.
240v ac Primary is the bottom coil, Secondary is the TOP coil (HV) then there is a 3rd flat
coil just under the HV secondary.
0986 = HV output connection is seen in the middle on the top coil
0987 = Start of the HV secondary winding is seen secured to a "tag" on the iron lamentations, this
is the wire you need to "lift" so the iron lamination's do not carry any voltage.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 21, 2009, 01:58:53 AM

yipppppeeeeee ;D

NOW WERE ROCKIN .....

IST!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Thaelin on June 21, 2009, 05:50:09 AM

I cant stand back and see innocent people get hurt here.
I have to say something just to set my mind at ease.

:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

If you do the MOT style and especially the dual one, be very
careful of it. You can generate lethal voltages here easy. Only
one hit will do. A MOT in normal use delivers 4000v from the cap/
diode doubler. The step up ratio with two will be a lot.
In my early days, I got hit with 35000 and I am damn lucky to
be alive now.

At the voltages this will attain, the insulation on the wires may
not be enough to stop it. OK, back in my corner for now. Great
work tho. Much learned from this thread.

thay.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 21, 2009, 10:24:54 AM

Quote from: Thaelin on June 21, 2009, 05:50:09 AM
I cant stand back and see innocent people get hurt here.
I have to say something just to set my mind at ease.

:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

If you do the MOT style and especially the dual one, be very
careful of it. You can generate lethal voltages here easy. Only
one hit will do. A MOT in normal use delivers 4000v from the cap/
diode doubler. The step up ratio with two will be a lot.
In my early days, I got hit with 35000 and I am damn lucky to
be alive now.

At the voltages this will attain, the insulation on the wires may
not be enough to stop it. OK, back in my corner for now. Great
work tho. Much learned from this thread.

thay.

Very TRUE and you will find that they increase Current as well . i have did small test with the primary only and sparking increases the current . Is it Because the wire is so thick? Is there OU in COPPER MASS ? We will find out .

@electricme . You have an advantage as your stuff (MOT) are 220 ours in use are 110 . They still kick though . I finally have a package ready for you . Its a surprise . I got back pay and can afford shipping now :)

Gadget
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 21, 2009, 11:00:41 AM

glad your makeing some money gadget ....

but have you got your rocks on yet :P

ist http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdfWfxUtqko

betterfly better fly away this time ...... cuz im ALL 4 LOVE GET YOUR ROCKS ON TIME TO MAKE IT RIGHT!!

HIS TEAM IS ALL 4 LOVE!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wT7vGykGtok

PUT THE BOTTLE DOWN CUZ .... you dont want to miss out ......... ;)

WHERES ALBERT HE SHOULD BE SHOWING UP SOON ..... :D

BTW DID YOU CATCH MY OTHER EYE WINKING AT YOU ALL .... :)

BOTH ONLINE NOW ...... :) :) :) ALSO FOR THOSE THAT FOLLOW MY GROWTH .... IM SHRE THERE IS A FEW .... LOL

I HAD TO GROW MY BRIAN FOR EXTRA STORAGE ..... LOL ;)

DO YOU KNOW WHY ..... ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 21, 2009, 01:14:48 PM

@Jim,

Quotegary
Q2 = if you feed the output into a bigger transformer, from a smaller transformer, you will not get a hi output, swap the transformers around then you will get more.
BUT, take the different size windings into consideration, if you push too much through smaller transformer windings, then it will get warm, just keep an eye on it.

I guess this is the reason the fuji transformer on the lower tier is the big one with 1760 turns.
Thanks Jim, that is valuable info.

The circuit (w/ the 12v dc car lamp) is important information too, thank you.
====
@All, does anybody know the numbers of turns in the MOT? (I am wondering what should be expected from this.)
====

@Wilby,

I would like to add a little bit to what was said yesterday.

We examined our transformer numbers a while ago.
We all are getting much more than the regular transformer numbers would predict. (Often the difference is 5 times more.)

The fuji AA first level transformer has 1760 turns on the secondary. (ref jesus drawings etc)
This is way more turns than any or our toroids need (thank the toroid?)

Here is a little example from my family of toroids ;) ...

It has a bifilar with a total of 22 turns on it. (evilmadscientist design)

Way back in January, I happened to notice that I could light a led from the single secondary wind around this. After some studies I learned that 4 turns was plenty bright, and I turned a secondary of 16 turns and lit 30 leds with a combination of series and parallel connections.

This uses volts from the series connections
and
amps from the parallel connections.

The normal transformer math on this does not really work.

For starters, the secondary is a step-down transformer no matter how you count the bifilar. (as 11T or as 22T) When the 1.2 voltage from the battery is figured, well...

The other part is the amps part.
The volts are being drawn from the battery to operate the transistor. At that voltage the transistor is able to provide the amps needed to light the lights.

So, in a 2N3904, the volts of .7v is needed and about 20-30mA should be needed for each light at full brightness.

Even as I have noted in my candles, when a super-bright led uses 5mA and is still quite bright,
the total mA used for 30 lights lit at that brightness should be a minimum of 150mA drawn from the battery.

And, this is simply not the case.
Not only that, we have even seen amps draw decrease with the addition of lights.

I don't know if any of these numbers surprises can be seen from a straight transformer. I know much of this is caused by the bifilar primary, and the bemf of the switching transistor.

If you would like to experiment with a few of yours, I would be very happy to see the results of your tests. They would sure be easier to wind.

Thank you again for bringing this up,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 21, 2009, 02:09:02 PM

@MK1,
About adding a magnet to a joule thief toroid...

My first joule thief, which I made in the winter of '07'08 was made on a toroid-shaped ferrite magnet. It worked, but not as well as some others, and after a week it gave out.

It seems, the magnet had done something to the silicon transistor, or to the doping, or something.

I reused that transistor just to be sure, and it worked fine, but I had to take it off the magnet and wait a while.

BTW, it was this experience which gave me the impression that the 3904 was not as good as the 2222. But what was really happening was something to do with the magnet.

I do not know if it is correct to say that the magnet had "saturated" the transistor, but it was a sort of saturation effect.

So, please keep a magnet stuck onto a toroid joule thief for a week or 2 and let us know if it changes your joule thief operation.

All information on this is very helpful.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 21, 2009, 02:29:49 PM

there is a relationship between the materials ....

:)

a harmonic relationship ....

ist!

same as the earth and the SHOCK YA! ROCKS..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on June 21, 2009, 02:37:34 PM

Quote from: electricme on June 19, 2009, 03:11:35 AM
Thats right, you get more current out of a single layered coil.
The more single coils you put on, the lower the voltage you get back out of each coil.

perhaps I should have said, if one big secondary coil output is 256v, then you decide to replace it with 4 smaller coils, each of the smaller coils = 64v. each coil had 65 turns on it.

Well, thats how it worked out for me.

yes, you can view current behave like this.
but current depend on a few things.
a sure thing tho, you won't have more current then you can put in.

for AC/pulse DC you have the coil's impedance and coil's configuration.
for DC, you have the coil's resistance and coil's configuration
it can be multi layered but in that case you must use the proper method for windding it.
looping from start to end of the coil's form, go back to start whitout looping,
then loop to the end again.
repete this till you have no more wire left to wind.

yes, if 200 turns give you 100volts and you make it in 4 coils you will get 100 volts out of them.
but if you connect to only one of the 4 coils you won't measure 25 volts on it.
since the impedance of only one coil is smaller, the voltage you will measure will be higher.

Quote from: electricme on June 19, 2009, 03:57:10 AM
@Xee2
To make the neon brighter

Raid the parlor, grab about 4 - 6 ft of alfoil and stick the "free" end to the sheet of alfoil, then lift the alfoil as high as you can in the aeither.

See if the neon gets brighter the higher you push up the alfoil.

you can also use capacitor(s), it is the same thing.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 21, 2009, 02:52:14 PM

I would like to thank everyone that has spoken up in the safety issues relating to the MOT
Please feel free to remind us often

:)

Anyone dealing with these kinds of voltages needs to stay aware of all the ways things can go wrong ..........

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I am currently demoting a microwave .
Hope to be back in an hour or so .

Jim and IST

Just to be sure ...... are you both saying I should put the 2 MOTs back to back ........so I will be boosting the voltage with the first .......feeding that into the HV of the second .......in effect lowering the voltage back down ?

Then a spark gap with a Neo magnet between the MOTs should boost the current ?

I am also wondering if my coils would make more flyback or less at the higher voltage . I am guessing more ....

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on June 21, 2009, 03:00:20 PM

electricme said and drew this:

Quote
@Gary and All
Now get another MOT, and connect it back to back.

MOT 1 MOT 2
-------------------- -------------------------
| secondary HV Out | | secondary HV in |
| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- |
| ---------------- | out in | --------------------- |
| ---------------- | | --------------------- |
| ---------------- | | --------------------- |
| ---------------- | | --------------------- |
| ---------------- | out in | --------------------- |
| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- |
| primary | | primary LV Out |
----------------------- | | -----------------------------
IN | ---------------- | | --------------------- | out
----------------------- | | ------------------------------
| | | |
|________________| |_____________________|

Connect above MOT to JT This MOT to your LOAD

@electricme,

I read the rest of your post and agree wholeheartedly.
Very good drawing; I was thinking of doing something similar and re-drawing Tesla's patent drawings in ASCII like you did above in modern symbols---in a new thread forum in Half Baked Ideas---but readibility in the Windows Operation System is going to be an issue for me to deal with.
(I have a whole book on Tesla's inventions to use as a reference.)

Next thought,
Your drawing above is something I had considered in the past to be able to step up voltage(s) partially for certain applications requiring specific voltage(s). But in regard to CEMF, is there counter-counter EMF in the second transformer to contend with? Will it work against itself?

I admit ignorance: Was this even a consideration you might have had? It was just something that crossed my mind.

--Lee

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 21, 2009, 03:07:01 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 21, 2009, 02:09:02 PM
@MK1,
About adding a magnet to a joule thief toroid...

My first joule thief, which I made in the winter of '07'08 was made on a toroid-shaped ferrite magnet. It worked, but not as well as some others, and after a week it gave out.

It seems, the magnet had done something to the silicon transistor, or to the doping, or something.

I reused that transistor just to be sure, and it worked fine, but I had to take it off the magnet and wait a while.

BTW, it was this experience which gave me the impression that the 3904 was not as good as the 2222. But what was really happening was something to do with the magnet.

I do not know if it is correct to say that the magnet had "saturated" the transistor, but it was a sort of saturation effect.

So, please keep a magnet stuck onto a toroid joule thief for a week or 2 and let us know if it changes your joule thief operation.

All information on this is very helpful.

thank you,

jeanna

Jeanna

Interesting idea to gest .

If you are right and the magnet does affect the transitor I think you may have found a different kind of energy .... not exactly magnetic ,,,,, not exactly electric

Do you still have any of that setup ?
I am wondering ....... the leads of some parts are iron rather than copper ....... can you find out if the leads to the parts in that circuit were copper or iron ?
If they were iron and in direct contact with eachother ......it could have made a flux path for the magnetic flux through the transistor .

I am assuming if it can affect the transitor ....... we should be able to find a way to use it to our advantage ..........maybe something trying to create a flux path in one leg of the transistor at a time ..... it is possible that it might work better in some way with the right magnetic flux flowing .

gary
gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 21, 2009, 04:01:41 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 21, 2009, 03:07:01 PM
If you are right and the magnet does affect the transitor I think you may have found a different kind of energy .... not exactly magnetic ,,,,, not exactly electric

Do you still have any of that setup ?...
If they were iron and in direct contact with eachother ......it could have made a flux path for the magnetic flux through the transistor .

I am assuming if it can affect the transitor ....... we should be able to find a way to use it to our advantage ..........maybe something trying to create a flux path in one leg of the transistor at a time ..... it is possible that it might work better in some way with the right magnetic flux flowing .
gary

Hi Gary,
I do have one of them. I made 2 right away but after they both stopped working, I remade one and the other is still on the magnet toroid.

I dunno.

I think magnetism and electricity are the left and right sides of the same body.

If the flux stops because the whole thing is too much magnet, the electric part won't do anything.

The reason I think it is stopping the transistor, is only because it took a week to stop working.

The fact that it never worked as well as later ones is probably caused by the lack of pulsing from too much steady magnetism... coming from inside the toroid.

The wires and leds etc are all the same parts I have used in these tests. The led is the original white from the 30led array vintage.
These are cheap ferrite magnets from RS.

Whatever you have in mind please try it.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 21, 2009, 05:06:21 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 21, 2009, 04:01:41 PM

Whatever you have in mind please try it.

This will have to wait for a while
I am pretty sure the effects will be small .........but could be helpful

Just wondering ...........if some magnetic affect does affect transistors what can be done with this ?

If a magnetic circuit was created using ONE of he legs of the transistor it might have some affect ........ switching the direction of the poles could change the effect.

I am thinking of the peltier effect , if electrons crossing a PN junction create a temperature difference ...... it is possible that this flux effect might do the same thing ...... if it did we would have a magnetically cooled transistor .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 21, 2009, 05:11:40 PM

I have my new MOT
I would say it is at least 3 times the size of my old one

Because of that I think the only way to hook it up is to use the new one as the JT coils .... and the pld one second .
The size difference is enough that I think that the new one would act as a choke if I used it second .

I will try to post a picture or 2 later once I get something going .

I am not going to try to measure the voltage ....... I fried part of my meter with the first MOT I would like to keep the rest of my meter intact .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 21, 2009, 06:22:34 PM

@Gadget
and anyone else who wants to to answer it,

Since we are not using watts to heat the fluoro tube, and we are stimulating the phosphorescence of the tube to react to the 450 volts at over ??kHz, then what is causing the difficulty in getting the longer ones to light up?

I am not saying it even is more difficult. I have only 2 tubes, a 7w and a 15w and if I can light the 7w I can also light the 15w.
Either one lights at less than full mains brilliance, and the bigger one casts more light than the smaller one. So the total light from the bigger one is more than from the smaller.

These are subjective observations, of course.

So, I guess, I should be asking this Q? first.
Is it true that it is harder to light a bigger tube than it is to light a smaller one?

The next Q? is ...what is the limit?

next Q? How much of what elements are needed to light the tube? (xee has said that 450volts is the minimum, and I think he is correct. Now, is there also a frequency minimum? and then, is there a combination minimum?

I decided to time the tube today, because I will be around later this evening to watch how long the AA can keep it on.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 21, 2009, 07:20:09 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 21, 2009, 06:22:34 PM
@Gadget
and anyone else who wants to to answer it,

Since we are not using watts to heat the fluoro tube, and we are stimulating the phosphorescence of the tube to react to the 450 volts at over ??kHz, then what is causing the difficulty in getting the longer ones to light up?

I am not saying it even is more difficult. I have only 2 tubes, a 7w and a 15w and if I can light the 7w I can also light the 15w.
Either one lights at less than full mains brilliance, and the bigger one casts more light than the smaller one. So the total light from the bigger one is more than from the smaller.

These are subjective observations, of course.

So, I guess, I should be asking this Q? first.
Is it true that it is harder to light a bigger tube than it is to light a smaller one?

The next Q? is ...what is the limit?

next Q? How much of what elements are needed to light the tube? (xee has said that 450volts is the minimum, and I think he is correct. Now, is there also a frequency minimum? and then, is there a combination minimum?

I decided to time the tube today, because I will be around later this evening to watch how long the AA can keep it on.

thank you,

jeanna

Jeanna:

Way back when I first saw Josepino's Fuji mod's and tried them, I discovered something which I have posted way, way back somewhere. Even Jose said on his site that this will light a 4 watt tube, but no more. Well, my mod is a little different from Jose's and I found that it lights the 4 watt just fine. Just for the heck of it, I bought a 15 wat tube, and yes, it lit that even brighter. So, I went out an got a new 48" tube, and that was even brighter still. I then bought another 48" tube and hooked the 2 of them up to the Fuji and....even brighter still. All of this is documented chronologically on my earlier youtube vids. (See youtube videos)

what does this mean? I don't know. Other than to say if you have a hand wound toroid that lights a 4 watt tube, try a 15 (which you did) and then try a 48 and then two 48's and see what happens....you might be pleasently surprised. (As I was)

I take it to mean that the mostly volts from the Fuji are liked better by more gas area (since we are not using the filiment as Gadget pointed out to us) and therefore, the more gas area (bigger, longer tubes) the better they light.

I can only report what I have seen and done and guess about the why. But, it is something to note.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 21, 2009, 07:27:14 PM

To Jim and Thaelin:

Thanks to you guys, and the others, for pointing out the potential (no pun intended) dangers of the MOT. This is exactly why I have not fooled with one as of yet. In my experiments now, it only hurts, and I know it is going to hurt, and I am really careful and yet.....zap!

As Clint Eastwood said (In a dirty Harry movie) "A man's got to know his limitations". Right now, I know that no matter how careful I am, I may still get zapped by the MOT so I am staying away from it for now.

Thank you all for pointing out the safety issues for everyone here.

Pirate's Number One Rule for Overunity Research: To discover overunity, you still have to be alive.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 21, 2009, 07:46:34 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 21, 2009, 07:20:09 PM
Jeanna:

... Just for the heck of it, I bought a 15 wat tube, and yes, it lit that even brighter. So, I went out an got a new 48" tube, and that was even brighter still. I then bought another 48" tube and hooked the 2 of them up to the Fuji and....even brighter still. All of this is documented chronologically on my earlier youtube vids. (See youtube videos)
...

... and therefore, the more gas area (bigger, longer tubes) the better they light.

I can only report what I have seen and done and guess about the why. But, it is something to note.

Bill

Hi Bill,
I am glad to see you today.

Yes, and of course it was inspiration from your experiments that got me to try this too.

I wonder if it is area of phosphorescence on the surface of the glass, or if it is (as you are saying) the amount of gas.

Tell me, is it "easier" for you to light up the longer ones? The subjective thing I am asking is does it seem to go right on and faster? My smaller one is a little tougher to start than the bigger one. The bigger one is a huge amount of surface area more and even more huge amount more gas to light up, for no more effort than to get the coil going.

This is really a terrific thing.

Thank you,

Are the storms over for a while?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 21, 2009, 08:04:56 PM

Jeanna:

Yes, they light much easier. As a matter of fact, about a month ago I bought a small little floro tube loop light, I am not sure of the watts but I am guessing about 4 or so. I am NOT able to light it with any of my Fuji circuits....not even a little bit. I thought maybe I had fried a transistor or something, and got one of the 48" tubes out and....poof...instant light. I have no explanation for this.

If you look at (and I know you have watched and commented on my videos, and I really appreciate that) my videos you can see I am basically replicating my Fuji AA battery experiments now with the EB. Everything form the leds to the tube lights.
There was one time I was trying to light two 48" tubes and only one lit brightly and the other only halfway down. I took a strong neo out and ran it over the halfway lit tube and poof, I found I could drag the light down the full length of the tube and it was then now fully lit. Later, I found a loose connection on one of my Fuji leads and fixed it but, I made a mental note that, for whatever reason, I could drag the light on a tube using a neo.

Yes, the storms are gone, for now. We had like 20 in a week and a half. it is now 104 degrees F outside and has been for a few days. (Including the heat index) Very humid and very, very hot when sitting in a car during surveillance. (No air conditioning) but, at least I am still here, ha ha.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 21, 2009, 09:18:14 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 21, 2009, 08:04:56 PM
...
a small little floro tube loop light, I am not sure of the watts but I am guessing about 4 or so. I am NOT able to light it with any of my Fuji circuits....
... and got one of the 48" tubes out and....poof...instant light. I have no explanation for this.

It might be worth finding out the reason for this.
It might give more good clues.
Or, Gadget's explanation stands as the best explanation for sure.

I would like to know the edges of this effect. you know... where it begins and ends.

Quote... I could drag the light on a tube using a neo.

Yeah, thanks for doing that.
I will call it "Bill's mag-starter trick".

Quote... but, at least I am still here, ha ha.

Good thing.

Ceep kool
;)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 21, 2009, 09:47:33 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 21, 2009, 06:22:34 PM
@Gadget
and anyone else who wants to to answer it,

Since we are not using watts to heat the fluoro tube, and we are stimulating the phosphorescence of the tube to react to the 450 volts at over ??kHz, then what is causing the difficulty in getting the longer ones to light up?

I am not saying it even is more difficult. I have only 2 tubes, a 7w and a 15w and if I can light the 7w I can also light the 15w.
Either one lights at less than full mains brilliance, and the bigger one casts more light than the smaller one. So the total light from the bigger one is more than from the smaller.

These are subjective observations, of course.

So, I guess, I should be asking this Q? first.
Is it true that it is harder to light a bigger tube than it is to light a smaller one?

The next Q? is ...what is the limit?

next Q? How much of what elements are needed to light the tube? (xee has said that 450volts is the minimum, and I think he is correct. Now, is there also a frequency minimum? and then, is there a combination minimum?

I decided to time the tube today, because I will be around later this evening to watch how long the AA can keep it on.

thank you,

jeanna

jeanna

As I understand it the reason the longer ones are harder to light because you have to have enough voltage to overcome the internal resistance of the tube .
Once it is lit there is an ionised path for the current so it can be ran with less voltage than it takes to start it .

The minimum frequency would be the lowest frequency you can run it at without loosing the plasma path for the current .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 21, 2009, 10:11:02 PM

I have not had amy luck hooking the 2 MOTs together .
The big one did not light up the CFL any better than the little one

I think it has developed a short .
it started making a buzzing when the CFL was lit .....then the buzzing got louder then I could not get the CFL to light again .

I put some shellac on the where the buzz seemed to be comming from .....it helped some ............so I put some more on .......I will wait till tomorrow before I try it again .

When it was running and I had the HV coills connected I checked the voltage ....... 6.5 V was all that I could get .

I could not get any measurable voltage off either of the other winding of the second MOT.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 21, 2009, 10:17:18 PM

hummmmmmm

intresting ......

what are you switching ....

the original mot unit i have currently buit is positive swtched .... and compounds in the cap that feeds it ....

ill digg it out and shoot a video of it ...

peace

ist!

sorry i dont have a driveing cap on this unit... lol .. i have only a recovery cap ...

makeing silly video

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 21, 2009, 10:30:03 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on June 21, 2009, 10:17:18 PM
hummmmmmm

intresting ......

what are you switching ....

the original mot unit i have currently buit is positive swtched .... and compounds in the cap that feeds it ....

ill digg it out and shoot a video of it ...

peace

ist!

Ist

I am not sure what you mean by positive switching .

I am using the first MOT as a JT

I could try to drive the first MOT with the output of another JT if I need to .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 21, 2009, 10:49:59 PM

i mean pnp not npn you will get better results ....

as i have seen anyways ...

ist

cam is not working well for some reason ...... hummmmmm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on June 21, 2009, 11:04:21 PM

since mag fields can be added together or nullify each other.

when adding a magnet:
you will assist inrush current at the detriment of the coil's mag field colapse rate.
or assist the coil's mag field colapse rate at the detriment of the inrush current.

whitch one do you think is preferable ?
this can be tested with a cored inductor with a magnet on them.

you can find such inductors in electronic circuit that need a biased inductor.
i occasionaly get one of these in printer's circuit boards.

i hope this post does not look too pendentic.
i perfer being pedentic then to use emoticons, cryptic language, and assume everyone will understand.

on the other side i do see that using emoticons and cryptic language is a nice way not to write any erronous things.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 21, 2009, 11:04:42 PM

@ Gadgetmall,
Getting exciting now, ha ha, my MOT is still on the floor, lol.

Quote from: gadgetmall on June 21, 2009, 10:24:54 AM
Very TRUE and you will find that they increase Current as well . i have did small test with the primary only and sparking increases the current . Is it Because the wire is so thick? Is there OU in COPPER MASS ? We will find out .

@electricme . You have an advantage as your stuff (MOT) are 220 ours in use are 110 . They still kick though . :)
Gadget

G-Day Gadget, and thanke :D
but wont this be exciting if we can get OU out of a JT. I think the energy is coming from the Magnetic Field, I remember reading Iron reacts best with magnetic fields, I suppose the Earths Magnetic field would be included.
Stubblefield made his earth battery work with earths magnetic field, it must be a "mass" thing, the larger the iron, the more easier it is to latch up with it.

In J Bedini's home page, or was it Icehouse, there is a photo of him sparking his bedini, and there are aeather sparks (blueies) and usual orange sparks in the next photo. hmm so I suppose if we get blue sparks, this is the stuff we need?

@all
I hope everyone is heeding these warnings, so much to doooo, so little time.

@ Pirate,
This is a little bit off topic folks.
I been up to no good mate, :D I took a look at John Bedini's stuff over the last several days, I think I will attempt to make one of his devices. I have removed the Tape Head Drum assembly from an old VHS player I had here, it has a very smooth spinning action, very sweet if I might say so myself.

I have 47 of those unpronounceable silver disk magnets 1/2" by 3/16" in size. They have a pull or a repulsion like nothing I ever seen before

I don't want to take up any more thread space here Bill, so could you please PM me with ALL the details on how to make one of these thingies? TA
jim

@all,
Good work in this forum, we making headroad.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 21, 2009, 11:13:04 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 21, 2009, 09:47:33 PM
jeanna

As I understand it the reason the longer ones are harder to light because you have to have enough voltage to overcome the internal resistance of the tube ....

But Gary, it is the opposite.
It is easier to light the longer ones.
They are so much bigger volume and have so much more surface area to light.

QuoteThe minimum frequency would be the lowest frequency you can run it at without loosing the plasma path for the current .

Sounds good.

And, I wonder what that frequency is.

Thanks for your thoughts,

----
The biggo stopped at 4 hours on the 7 watt fluoro.
It was on for less time than the 15 watt was on last weekend, by at least 15 minutes.
I will do the 15 watt test again tomorrow. I want to see just how much longer it will light and what the "dead" voltage will be.

The battery with the 7 watt fluoro tube off stands at 1.15v.

This is at least consistent. Harder to light the littler one and it goes out sooner with 1.15 battery voltage remaining.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 21, 2009, 11:30:05 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 21, 2009, 11:13:04 PM
But Gary, it is the opposite.
It is easier to light the longer ones.
They are so much bigger volume and have so much more surface area to light.

Jeanna

I am pretty sure about the thing about having to overcome the internal resistance .
I would say that the long ones are probably an older style ....... they probably have more mercury or what ever they use to lower the internal resistance .

I do know that they have been working at getting the amount of mercury down for quite a few years .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 21, 2009, 11:49:57 PM

Ha Jim,
I was just looking at and catching up on johnnydavro's rattlesnake egg magnet bedini.
Everything except the circuit diagram reminds me of the jt.

But it does look like fun.

====
theNOP,
Go ahead and be as pedantic as you wish.
Just be the way you are, OK?

=====
Gary,
ooo older style. I suppose that is true. Very little attention has gone into them. I guess I could get another long one while there is still time.
I wonder how many turns it will take to get 600 volts? If II can get 600v I should be able to light anything.

happy winding,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 21, 2009, 11:51:46 PM

@ALL
Electrical Safety around the MOT transformer.
This makes a very good read, see below.

@Jeanna,
There are 1.2 turns of wire in a MOT to make 1 volt on the secondary, so measure the secondary output, divide by 1.2 and bobs your unkle, the number of turns on the secondary, as is seen in the below article.

http://www.users.on.net/~endsodds/psrewind.htm

Another way is to drive a wood chissle into the winds, cut them right through, pull them out and count them, thats the way I was tought back in the "early" days :D

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 21, 2009, 11:52:35 PM

im just wondering what is the result if ....

we used a mot primary only ... and pulsed both pos and neg in sync and did not capture the colpase of the primary like if we blocked it and forced it out the secondary ... rectified into the next mot .....

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 22, 2009, 12:08:55 AM

Quote from: electricme on June 21, 2009, 11:51:46 PM

@Jeanna,
There are 1.2 turns of wire in a MOT to make 1 volt on the secondary,

... bobs your unkle,

:D :D :D :D :D :D
:D :D :D :D :D :D
==========
:D :D :D :D :D :D
:D :D :D :D :D :D

that is called a head road right?

bob?

Don't even think about me and a mot.
no way hosay!

I was wondering if it took me 240 turns and some magic with the tuning, to get 450 volts, could I add another 80 turns and get 600? Or, was it more magic than turns?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 22, 2009, 12:10:01 AM

@ TheNOP
Thankyou, I understand this.

Quote from: TheNOP on June 21, 2009, 02:37:34 PM
yes, you can view current behave like this.
but current depend on a few things.
a sure thing tho, you won't have more current then you can put in.

for AC/pulse DC you have the coil's impedance and coil's configuration.
for DC, you have the coil's resistance and coil's configuration
it can be multi layered but in that case you must use the proper method for windding it.
looping from start to end of the coil's form, go back to start whitout looping,
then loop to the end again.
repete this till you have no more wire left to wind.

yes, if 200 turns give you 100volts and you make it in 4 coils you will get 100 volts out of them.
but if you connect to only one of the 4 coils you won't measure 25 volts on it.
since the impedance of only one coil is smaller, the voltage you will measure will be higher.

you can also use capacitor(s), it is the same thing.

Thanks for this reply, I had been toying with this for a while now, I have posted a pic of the windings called a "yoke" I took off a "redundant" TV or PC monitor. It shows exactly what you said.

Thanks.
jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 22, 2009, 12:27:08 AM

@Resonanceman

Quote from: resonanceman on June 21, 2009, 02:52:14 PM
Please feel free to remind us often :)

Anyone dealing with these kinds of voltages needs to stay aware of all the ways things can go wrong ..........
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am currently demoting a microwave .
Hope to be back in an hour or so .

Jim and IST

Just to be sure ...... are you both saying I should put the 2 MOTs back to back ........so I will be boosting the voltage with the first .......feeding that into the HV of the second .......in effect lowering the voltage back down ?

Then a spark gap with a Neo magnet between the MOTs should boost the current ?

I am also wondering if my coils would make more flyback or less at the higher voltage . I am guessing more ....
gary

Gary,
I don't know if IST has answered.

Careful removing the steel parts, inturnal covers etc, they are very sharp, I have cut myself at times.

When you "demoting" a microwave,
FIRST, SHORT THE BIG HV CAPACITOR OUT,,, BEFORE YOU DO ANYTHING ELSE

Use a insulated screwdriver, and touch the terminals on the cap MANY TIMES at least 10 times, as these things can "recharge" themselves, just like a 1.5v AA battery if left alone. Hold the screwdriver against it for a long time, bleed off any charge.

Then pull the wires off the capacitor.
----------------------------------------

You mentioned several posts back you were getting a "1/8" inch spark out of a JT, just put this spark into the HI Volt windings, they will be the finer wire coil.

Thats right Gary, we need to reduce the HV to get a lower voltage to play with.

If you get "blue" sparks, then there is a good chance you are in the aeather stuff ;D
If only orange sparks, then you have ordinary electricity stuff. :D

jim

@TheNOP
Is it possible to have 2 types of electrical energy circulating in an electrical device at the same time?

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 22, 2009, 12:33:47 AM

@ Jim:

I have already said I am not going to fool with a MOT at this time....BUT.....I was thinking..(here we go) if we are really looking for high freq. then, what could be higher than the 2.4 GHz of microwave freqs? Maybe we should use some other components from the oven as well?

I do NOT recommend anyone do this as the microwave oven is itself a Faraday cage to protect folks from these harmful radiation frequencies.

But, I was just thinking........

Of course, I live near an airport and it may interfere with the local radar towers......

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 22, 2009, 12:51:20 AM

@the_big Lee ;)
Hmm how to answer this lol

Quote from: the_big_m_in_ok on June 21, 2009, 03:00:20 PM
electricme said and drew this:
@electricme,

I read the rest of your post and agree wholeheartedly.
Very good drawing; I was thinking of doing something similar and re-drawing Tesla's patent drawings in ASCII like you did above in modern symbols---in a new thread forum in Half Baked Ideas---but readibility in the Windows Operation System is going to be an issue for me to deal with.
(I have a whole book on Tesla's inventions to use as a reference.)

Next thought,
Your drawing above is something I had considered in the past to be able to step up voltage(s) partially for certain applications requiring specific voltage(s). But in regard to CEMF, is there counter-counter EMF in the second transformer to contend with? Will it work against itself?

I admit ignorance: Was this even a consideration you might have had? It was just something that crossed my mind.

--Lee

Thanks for those kind remarks Lee, and thanks also to all who have posted.

No, this is a case of throwing my hands up in the air, and just putting on paper what I think, this means the electric text book got chucked out as well. :D
Sometimes one has to go with a GUT feeling, and new ideas, before making any progress.

But when Gary said he had made 1/8" sparks feeding a JT into his iron transformer, then whacko, it just came to me.

I have NO idea what you will find in regard to effects of CEMF or EMFn the transformers, you know as much as I do, probably much more in fact.
I'm just a GOF, (Gerryactric Old Fart) who dosent know any better, and likes to push the new ideas in place of the older ones. ;D

I remember IST had been mucking about with a set of 3 phase MOTs and I got the idea from there, TA ist.

Actually, Gary is moving so fast that I carn't keep up, well done Gary. :D

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 22, 2009, 01:56:43 AM

@All
Now, this is interresting stuff
HOW TO MAKE A HIGH VOLTAGE PROBE that will fitt the DMM

http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/hvprobe.htm#shvdx
http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/hvprobe.htm

or http://www.caltestelectronics.com/www/default.asp

or http://sew.com.tw/p16.htm

or make your own "electroscope" see below
http://www.ece.rochester.edu/~jones/demos/electroscope.html
BTW, dont use a metal ruler as the gauge, wood or plastic is better.

or for those who would be interrested how a home made 250KV probe was made, try here
http://rimstar.org/equip/hv150kvprobe/hv150kvprobe.htm
it even has 2 built in corona safety devices.

Ohhhhoooo I had a Fun Fun day.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 22, 2009, 02:09:13 AM

@Jeanna,
If you get borred watching how long the fluro will stay litup, do this.

Quote from: jeanna on June 21, 2009, 06:22:34 PM
@Gadget
and anyone else who wants to to answer it,

Since we are not using watts to heat the fluoro tube, and we are stimulating the phosphorescence of the tube to react to the 450 volts at over ??kHz, then what is causing the difficulty in getting the longer ones to light up?

I am not saying it even is more difficult. I have only 2 tubes, a 7w and a 15w and if I can light the 7w I can also light the 15w.
Either one lights at less than full mains brilliance, and the bigger one casts more light than the smaller one. So the total light from the bigger one is more than from the smaller.

These are subjective observations, of course.

So, I guess, I should be asking this Q? first.
Is it true that it is harder to light a bigger tube than it is to light a smaller one?

The next Q? is ...what is the limit?

next Q? How much of what elements are needed to light the tube? (xee has said that 450volts is the minimum, and I think he is correct. Now, is there also a frequency minimum? and then, is there a combination minimum?

I decided to time the tube today, because I will be around later this evening to watch how long the AA can keep it on.

thank you,

jeanna

Get a small 4" 6" fluro tube, put it in a glass half filled with water.
Put it in the microwave for 10 seconds on half power.
Press start, and watch it light up. On Hi power, you need sunnies.

OK, how much power does it take to light the fluro tube?
But it took microwaves + energy = light effect.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on June 22, 2009, 02:11:30 AM

Quote from: jeanna on June 21, 2009, 11:49:57 PM
theNOP,
Go ahead and be as pedantic as you wish.
Just be the way you are, OK?

thanks

there are 2 reasons for why i am like that.
the first is my fear of not be understood because of my english.

the secound is that i am trying to always keep in mind that some here do not have a background education in electronic.
if you look at this forum globally, you see more obscure theories then actual prouven scientific facts.
so i end up assuming most are not familliar with modern terms and what they mean.

about smaller/bigger tubes.
along with what resonanceman is saying.
the capacitance of the tubes might also play a role.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 22, 2009, 02:14:51 AM

@Bill,
Exactly.

Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 21, 2009, 07:27:14 PM
"A man's got to know his limitations".

Pirate's Number One Rule for Overunity Research: To discover overunity, you still have to be alive.

Bill

Good rule, very good rule indeed. ;D

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on June 22, 2009, 02:45:16 AM

Quote from: electricme on June 22, 2009, 12:27:08 AM
Is it possible to have 2 types of electrical energy circulating in an electrical device at the same time?

yes.
AC and DC can share the same wire and still be considered separate components.

there is also a particularity with AC.
you can have a lots of different signals in the same wire and still be able to separate them.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 22, 2009, 02:50:13 AM

@Jeanna,
lol

Quote from: jeanna on June 22, 2009, 12:08:55 AM
:D :D :D :D :D :D
:D :D :D :D :D :D
==========
:D :D :D :D :D :D
:D :D :D :D :D :D

that is called a head road right?

bob?

Don't even think about me and a mot.
no way hosay!

I was wondering if it took me 240 turns and some magic with the tuning, to get 450 volts, could I add another 80 turns and get 600? Or, was it more magic than turns?

jeanna

Bobs your unkle means "It'l be jake" or "She'l be right" or" It'l be OK"
Read Nino Culotta "They're a Weird Mob" it explains it all, or

or look at a 3 min clip here http://australianscreen.com.au/titles/buddies/clip1/

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on June 22, 2009, 02:59:16 AM

@Pirate88179
i am not familiar with microwave oven internal circuitry.
but what componants are actually seeing the 2.4MH...

is not the MOT a steal cored transformer ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 22, 2009, 04:30:54 AM

@Stprue,
Should we try parts of these circuits in the JT, powering with NPN and PNP transistors.

http://uzzors2k.googlepages.com/flybacktransformer

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 22, 2009, 07:29:23 AM

@All,
I decided to do a bit of a clean up here at the house, and just found my three High Voltage Probes along with some tools I was missing for a couple of years. ;D
I have ADHD and if I put something down, and I don't use it constantly, I forget where I put it.
I'm so happy. :D

I befriended a old chappie in my town, he died and there was an Auction at his place, he had all sorts of good stuff he had put away, most people said it was junk.

Anyway, I bought a couple of boxes of "junk", forgot what they were now, one had the probes underneath something else piled on top, so I had a real win that day, although I missed out on the machining lathe.

Old Norm had even seen the Min Min Lights in his younger days, balls of glowing energy, he told me the story in front of his sister and one of my daughters.

The HV Probes are
0994 = Grey Black probe, its rated as 28KV
0995 = All Grey, it says "Probe for Model FN". Must be related to the below probe.
0996 = All Marone (Red) 1.4KV-DC=3.5KV-AC for Model FN

jim

Time for a cuppa T

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 22, 2009, 07:50:24 AM

Quote from: jeanna on June 22, 2009, 12:08:55 AM
:D :D :D :D :D :D :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P [ |#| ]:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) ======Hot======:P :P :P
:D :D :D :D :D :D :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P [ |#| ] police car :) :) :) =====Rubber=====:P :P :P
========== _______________ __________________ ___________________
:D :D :D :D :D :D :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :D :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P
:D :D :D :D :D :D :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P o < pothole :P :P :P :P :P

that is called a head road right? (it is now) he he he councle got stuck into it and put more bitumen down

bob?

Don't even think about me and a mot.
no way hosay! (No sence of adventure lol)

I was wondering if it took me 240 turns and some magic with the tuning, to get 450 volts, could I add another 80 turns and get 600? Or, was it more magic than turns?

jeanna

M A G I C
;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 22, 2009, 08:32:16 AM

Quote from: electricme on June 22, 2009, 12:27:08 AM
@Resonanceman

Gary,
I don't know if IST has answered.

Careful removing the steel parts, inturnal covers etc, they are very sharp, I have cut myself at times.

When you "demoting" a microwave,
FIRST, SHORT THE BIG HV CAPACITOR OUT,,, BEFORE YOU DO ANYTHING ELSE

Use a insulated screwdriver, and touch the terminals on the cap MANY TIMES at least 10 times, as these things can "recharge" themselves, just like a 1.5v AA battery if left alone. Hold the screwdriver against it for a long time, bleed off any charge.

Then pull the wires off the capacitor.
----------------------------------------

You mentioned several posts back you were getting a "1/8" inch spark out of a JT, just put this spark into the HI Volt windings, they will be the finer wire coil.

Thats right Gary, we need to reduce the HV to get a lower voltage to play with.

If you get "blue" sparks, then there is a good chance you are in the aeather stuff ;D
If only orange sparks, then you have ordinary electricity stuff. :D

jim

@TheNOP
Is it possible to have 2 types of electrical energy circulating in an electrical device at the same time?

jim

Thanks Jim

I did short out the big cap before I did anything near it .
I got some nice parts out of it.
This microwave was the kind that goes over a stove .
It had a really nice duel squirl cage fan in it
There was also a 2000 V 1uF cap and a big diode connected to it.

So far it looks like the second MOT is choking the first MOT.
I am going to play with it a while and see if I can get it working.

Quote

But when Gary said he had made 1/8" sparks feeding a JT into his iron transformer, then whacko, it just came to me.

I have NO idea what you will find in regard to effects of CEMF or EMFn the transformers, you know as much as I do, probably much more in fact.

This is not quite accurate ........ I may try feeding a JT into a MOT if all else fails .

I made a JT out of the main windings of a MOT.
I fired it up and the high voltage winding lit a CFL ( my first CFL lighting :) )
( this winding is the one that is connected to ground on one side )
The sparks were about 1/8 inch .......and they were mostly blue.

I do think that the MOT has a little " magic " hidden in there somewhere .
We just need to find it :)

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 22, 2009, 08:40:30 AM

Quote from: TheNOP on June 22, 2009, 02:59:16 AM
@Pirate88179
i am not familiar with microwave oven internal circuitry.
but what componants are actually seeing the 2.4MH...

is not the MOT a steal cored transformer ?

TheNOP

Yes the MOT has a steal core .........but it is a bit different than nost .

On many steal cores the laminations have a small gap to help prevent saturation
The laminations on a MOT are welded together .
The windings are a bit different too .......they appear to be wound outside the core then slid into it.

I do not think that many parts in a microwave actually contact high frequency high voltage .......in the one I just took apart there were high voltage wires going between the MOT the magnatron tube and a HV cap.
Some of the other parts may see high frequency at low power but I am pretty sure that they don't have high voltage .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 22, 2009, 08:48:07 AM

BEMF IS WRONG CEMF IS WRONG ......

FOR LIKE THE 10 MILLIONTH TIME

IT IS HEMF

HENCE THE TITLE OF MY TRANSFORMER .........

ERRRRRRRR

ILL DIG OUT TESLAS WORDS AGIN FOR ANOTHER TIME IF I MUST!!

HEMF STANDS FOR HIGH ELECTRO MOTIVE FORCE ..... SUTITABLE FOR CHEEPLY CHARGEING A CAP!!!!!!!

MY MY MY ....

IST!

NOW KNOWING THIS .... HOW DOES HIS ELECTRIC CAR WORK ..... ?? ::)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: alan on June 22, 2009, 08:56:22 AM

hemf from the sharp gradients of bemf?

any plans on doing water[cap] and hydrogen experiments, ist?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 22, 2009, 09:05:51 AM

Quote from: alan on June 22, 2009, 08:56:22 AM
hemf from the sharp gradients of bemf?

any plans on doing water[cap] and hydrogen experiments, ist?

TO BE COMPLEATLY HONEST I DID THIS YEARS AGO .. AND I DONT EVEN FEEL I WANT TO SELL ANYTHING ANY MORE ... :P

JUST ABOUT HAD MY FILL OF STUPID RICH FOOLS THAT THINK THEY KNOW IT ALL ....

LOL

SO BUILD THE HHO WATER CAP IT WILL BLOW YOUR MIND ....

BUT I DONT EVEN FEEL LIKE SHAREING ANY MORE WORK

ALL I EVER DID WAS GIVE GIVE GIVE ... AND YET I GET SHIT ALL IN RETURN

SOME GUY SENDS SOME LED CANDLES ... TO BE MODDED OF COURSE THEY GET LOST IN THE MAIL THEN THE GUY HAS THE NERVE TO PESTER ME LIKE 4 TIMES A DAY ...

WASTE MORE OF MY TIME .... 4 WHAT ... ?? NUTTIN IM NOT USED TO ...

HA ...

O WELL WHEN THE WORLD FIGURES IT ALL OUT GUESS WHO IS THE BOY YOU GOT TO COME SEE.... HUMMMMMMM

THATS RIGHT AND IF I SPILL ANYMORE NO NOT 1 DIME WILL BE MADE .. AND IM NO MONEY GUY ..

I AINT WORRIED ... ILL SEE EACH AND EVERYONE OF YOUR FACES IN DO TIME .... ;D ;D ;D ;)

WAKE UP .....

IST!

JUST INCASE YOU MISSED THIS VIDE IT MAY BE IN YOUR BEST INTREST TO WATCH IT....

THE LEGAND OF ALANTIS ....... HUMMMMMM..... YOUR REALITY ON EARTH NOW ... ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVSAGv4kUgk&feature=PlayList&p=1E01D0CA88336DB6&index=0&playnext=1

SO WHAT ABOUT QUANTUM COMMUNATIONS... HOW MAY THAT WORK .... MASS TO MASS CRYSTALS .... HUMMMMM

SHEESH....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 22, 2009, 09:24:43 AM

Quote from: TheNOP on June 22, 2009, 02:11:30 AM

if you look at this forum globally, you see more obscure theories then actual prouven scientific facts.
so i end up assuming most are not familliar with modern terms and what they mean.

about smaller/bigger tubes.
along with what resonanceman is saying.
the capacitance of the tubes might also play a role.

TheNOP

Can you prove that any of your " proven scientific facts" are really true?

Once ........in a galaxy far far way scientists were honest . they reported what they found without bias . The people in that galaxy progressed rapidly because the truth was available to all .

In our world each and every scientist knows who signs his paycheck.
Each and every scientist knows that some results are just not sitisfactory even it they are true .
The results of the study MUST fall in line with the agenda of the people that paid for the research .

I think it is good that most here have not been "educated "
I think it is good that most people here are following their gut ......at least part of the time .
I am totally sure that people have been taught has been tweaked to favor certain facts ...... and to avoid other facts .
If all of us had a good education and trusted that education there would never be a way to get out from under the people that have twisted our education system to keep themselves rolling in money .

I guess all I can really say to you is be thankful of your education ......but do not trust it ...... do not assume that you have been taught all that there is to know about anything .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 22, 2009, 09:33:35 AM

FOR THOSE THAT DONT KNOW OR REALIZE .....

THE GODS ARE RETURNING .......

;D ;) ;) ;)

AND THAT BEING SAID ..... I CAN MANIFIST MY THOUGHTS IN MY SKIN AT MY WILL ....

HUMMMMM

IST!

THE SILLY HUMANS CALLED THEM GODS .... BUT THEY WERE JUST LIKE ALL OF YOU BUT THEY GREW UP !

AND DISCOVERED WHAT JESUS KNEW ... THY CHRIST SELF ..... 8)

I MANIFESTED A 3RD EYE QUARTZ 6 SIDED CRYSTAL IN MY 3RD EYE

GOT EYES TO SEE PERHAPS IT IS TIME FOR THE HUMANS TO OPEN IT ......

I FOR GOT TO MENTION THAT ..... THERE 2 PICS IN MY SKIN ART TEMP TATS ... LOL :D

THE SECOND IS FOR THE ONES THAT HAVE DIMONDS .... USE ONE OF THEM THERE ... ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 22, 2009, 09:39:19 AM

This is not exactly on topic but I thought of it because of my last post to The NOP

In a culture such as ours that actively teaches that OU is not possible .
The only ones smart enough to find OU are the uneducated .
The educated are no longer smart enough to even try .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 22, 2009, 10:23:52 AM

Quote from: jeanna on June 22, 2009, 12:08:55 AM
:D :D :D :D :D :D
:D :D :D :D :D :D
==========
:D :D :D :D :D :D
:D :D :D :D :D :D

that is called a head road right?

bob?

Don't even think about me and a mot.
no way hosay!

I was wondering if it took me 240 turns and some magic with the tuning, to get 450 volts, could I add another 80 turns and get 600? Or, was it more magic than turns?

jeanna

Is that 450ac or dc?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 22, 2009, 10:33:06 AM

Quote from: stprue on June 22, 2009, 10:23:52 AM
Is that 450ac or dc?

AC

yeah, ac peak to peak.
edit.
That is what it took to turn on my fluorotube.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 22, 2009, 10:38:06 AM

Quote from: electricme on June 22, 2009, 04:30:54 AM
@Stprue,
Should we try parts of these circuits in the JT, powering with NPN and PNP transistors.

http://uzzors2k.googlepages.com/flybacktransformer

jim

Looks pretty cool and dargerous. I think we could use some of this with JT's and I do have an extra monitor! Lets do it!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 22, 2009, 10:45:16 AM

@IST
;D

Quote from: innovation_station on June 22, 2009, 08:48:07 AM
BEMF IS WRONG CEMF IS WRONG ......

FOR LIKE THE 10 MILLIONTH TIME

IT IS HEMF

HENCE THE TITLE OF MY TRANSFORMER .........

ERRRRRRRR

ILL DIG OUT TESLAS WORDS AGIN FOR ANOTHER TIME IF I MUST!!

HEMF STANDS FOR HIGH ELECTRO MOTIVE FORCE ..... SUTITABLE FOR CHEEPLY CHARGEING A CAP!!!!!!!

MY MY MY ....

IST!

NOW KNOWING THIS .... HOW DOES HIS ELECTRIC CAR WORK ..... ?? ::)

shhh dont tell any body, he pushed it :D

its a 1/4 to 1 I betta get to bed.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 22, 2009, 10:45:44 AM

Quote from: jeanna on June 22, 2009, 10:33:06 AM
AC

yeah, ac peak to peak.

jeanna

I htink I will take out my bridge to see what I'm getting ac wise on my biggo. Maybe hook up some inductors. I haven't played with ac enough yet. No wonder the cap on your out put didn't work I though you were using DC.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 22, 2009, 10:47:27 AM

Quote from: stprue on June 22, 2009, 10:38:06 AM
Looks pretty cool and dargerous. I think we could use some of this with JT's and I do have an extra monitor! Lets do it!

SOUNDS LIKE A PLAN .....

IF SOME ONE HAS AN OLD YOKE .... FROM A TV .... LOOK HOW IT IS WOUND ON THE INSIDE ....

I HAVE 1 THAT IS MATCHED WITH A CARRIER WAVE AND 3 HARMONICS ... BY WIRE LENGTH ...

WELL WITH THE CORRECT FREQS ... WE CAN ACCELERATE PLANT GROWTH ...

IST!

BUT ... SHEESH WERE STILL TRYING TO GET THE SILLY SIMPLE KICK FIGURED ...

AND THE REST OF THE WORLD IS STILL SLEEPING ....

BUTTER FLY BETTER FLY AWAY THIS TIME !!!

AT THE RATE WE ARE GAINING PROGRESS ON EARTH THE DAMM ROCK WILL BE AN ASTORIDE BELT LIKE THE LAST TIME ROUND .....

A PIC OF THE YOKE .... ;D :D

OOOOOO LOOKIE WHAT I FOUND WHILE I WAS PACKING ...

THAT 3/4 FINISHED CASCADE ....... :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 22, 2009, 12:26:28 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on June 22, 2009, 02:59:16 AM
@Pirate88179
i am not familiar with microwave oven internal circuitry.
but what componants are actually seeing the 2.4MH...

is not the MOT a steal cored transformer ?

I was talking about the magnetron that outputs the "radar" freqs. I just could not think of the word until I read Gary's post. It is not the MOT putting out those freqs. it is the tube. Sounds dangerous to me.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 22, 2009, 12:44:23 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 22, 2009, 12:26:28 PM
I was talking about the magnetron that outputs the "radar" freqs. I just could not think of the word until I read Gary's post. It is not the MOT putting out those freqs. it is the tube. Sounds dangerous to me.

Bill

YEP INDEED DANGEROUS

AND I NEVER ONCE SAID TO PLAY WITH THE MAGNATRON ....

:)

TRANSFORMER AND DIODE CAP IF U WANT ....

1 MORE PIC FOR TODAY JUST TO JIGGLE YOUR BRAINS .... ;) ;) ;) ;D

IST!

BTW THIS WAS JUST 1 OF THOSE THROW TOGATHER UNITS .....

:P

JUST CUZ SHES SO HIGH ABOVE ME ..... :o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVKcfwJxa54

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 22, 2009, 12:49:48 PM

There is a video on Youtube somewhere I saw a year or so ago where some guy took apart a microwave and was lighting tubes in his garage on one end, and the magnetron was at the other end of the room. I think that idiot was cooking himself while doing that, or at least, getting hit with really bad radiation.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 22, 2009, 01:26:12 PM

HUMMMMMM WHATS NEXT ?!?!?!?!?! ;) ;) ;) :D

LED TO GOLD ?

IST!

I WANT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY AND BE FUNDED FOR GREEN SOULTIONS TO HEAL THIS PLANNET ....

IVE BEEN NICE .... AND GROWING AS I GO ... AS ARE EACH AND EVERYONE OF YOU

THAT WALK ON THIS EARTH ...... :)

IT IS TIME TO REALIZE THE TRUTH ....

ITS NOT EASY ....... 8)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84b949k8HCw&NR=1

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 22, 2009, 01:32:18 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 22, 2009, 12:26:28 PM
I was talking about the magnetron that outputs the "radar" freqs. I just could not think of the word until I read Gary's post. It is not the MOT putting out those freqs. it is the tube. Sounds dangerous to me.

Bill

Lets see ..........a tube that can cook stuff at a distance .......
I guess that could be dangerous
What body part would you like cooked first?

:)

The only thing I do with the magnatron tube tear it apart .
There are some nice toriod shaped magnets in there .

I might try making a toroid with one of them just to see how much differenence it makes

`~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

I tried my big MOT today ......the shellac worked ...... I can light the CFL again .
and no buzzing

:)

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on June 22, 2009, 01:39:44 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on June 22, 2009, 01:26:12 PM
HUMMMMMM WHATS NEXT ?!?!?!?!?! ;) ;) ;) :D

LED TO GOLD ?

IST!

I WANT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY AND BE FUNDED FOR GREEN SOULTIONS TO HEAL THIS PLANNET ....

IVE BEEN NICE .... AND GROWING AS I GO ... AS ARE EACH AND EVERYONE OF YOU

THAT WALK ON THIS EARTH ...... :)

IT IS TIME TO REALIZE THE TRUTH ....

@ist
Reading your posts and seeing that you are posting half photos of you, I want to remind you the inventor that was called IEVE, that was caught on that kind of behaviour and posted photos of himself, then just dissappeared or died misteriously.
According to the half photo posted of yourself, you are a young guy. Just take it easy and dont push the people you want help from and they will come to you.
Deal with them according to the experience you have gathered till now but with courtesy and you will be successful and will enjoy your future old age.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 22, 2009, 01:55:09 PM

JESUS ...

I DO KNOW MY FUTURE .... 8)

IST!

BOTH SIDES ARE WIDE AWAKE .... ;)

THEY ARE WATEING FOR ME TO TALK A LITTLE .... :)

BTW IM SURE THEY AINT KILLING ANYONE ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on June 22, 2009, 03:24:56 PM

re: iron use...

I've posted this image as a reminder that this type of coil setup works, but it's effects are so minimal that it's not worth trying.. i recently wound a coil similar to the one in the image except the inner coils were the primaries and the otter coil, green, was an iron wire...

The presence of the iron didn't effect the voltages or performance of the output, unless it was shorted out; in which case it reduced voltage output without benefiting the process in any way. Beneficial voltage gains were minimal.

This experiment was done in curiosity of the effects of an iron encasement; so my efforts of obtaining iron filings for a similar purpose are on hold at the moment.

For future reference, the coil you see is the essence of the experiment I performed. Sorry, but the numbers are so low there's not any information worth posting with specificity, however, it does seem likely that a ferrite powder would perform better than a steel wire.

In addition to the attempt, I placed a neomag on the coil, and the voltage output decrease significantly. It appears as though bringing a permanent magnet near a BO-JTC coil setup is decreasing the performance of those coils when they're being used as an oscillator.

In summary, it seems as though isolated, atomized magnetic moments are what causes a greater response in oscillatory voltage production. In other words, the conduction of a core seems to destroy that degree of magnetic flux which can be produced instantaneously.

Disclaimer: This information is based on a single experiment.

PS, you people make me laugh.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 22, 2009, 03:31:52 PM

@ Hazens1

I was wondering how those new cores were working out for you? I want to purchase a few but want to make sure thier performance is good/great!

@all

Has anybody hooked up a DC/DC converter to a JT? Does it work?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on June 22, 2009, 03:53:11 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 22, 2009, 09:24:43 AM
Can you prove that any of your " proven scientific facts" are really true?

for those that don't require specialised equipments to prouve them, yes.

you must make the difference between theories, commonly accepted facts, and laws.
theories are there to help to understand the laws.
while it might not exactly work as the theories say, it does not mean the laws are not how things tends to behave.

we are living in a greedy world.
if someone find something that can be sold, it will take time before all the details get out.
but what does that have to do with thrusting science's facts ?

science is the observation of how nature is working.
do you really think one can hide how its really behave for long while telling only parts of it ?

Quote from: resonanceman on June 22, 2009, 09:24:43 AM
I guess all I can really say to you is be thankful of your education ......but do not trust it ...... do not assume that you have been taught all that there is to know about anything .

i don't even thrust my own self...

i prefectly know that one can't learn everything in his life time.
base on that fact, i can see why some parts of the knowledge you are speaking of are set aside.
you will get those knowledge only if you are going to specialise in a specific field.
can't you see that ?

Quote from: resonanceman on June 22, 2009, 09:39:19 AM
In a culture such as ours that actively teaches that OU is not possible .
The only ones smart enough to find OU are the uneducated .
The educated are no longer smart enough to even try .

using the definition of OU: "tapping an unknown source"
you are mostly right.
but like in everything, there are exceptions tho.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on June 22, 2009, 04:03:10 PM

@ jadaro,

In reference to your previous post...

" In addition to the attempt, I placed a neomag on the coil, and the voltage output decrease significantly. It appears as though bringing a permanent magnet near a BO-JTC coil setup is decreasing the performance of those coils when they're being used as an oscillator. "

In disassembling a microwave magnetron I found 2 toroid magnets (failed to note the polarity configuration tho)...considering that it and the j/t both deal with high frequency, it stands to reason that 2 magnets in various arrangements would have to be similarly applied to the j/t before giving up on the concept.

Hope that is of value somehow.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 22, 2009, 05:07:18 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on June 22, 2009, 03:53:11 PM

you must make the difference between theories, commonly accepted facts, and laws.
theories are there to help to understand the laws.
while it might not exactly work as the theories say, it does not mean the laws are not how things tends to behave.

What about the laws?

It seems to me that a wise person that was interested in progress would never teach anyone about " laws "

As soon as you accept something as law ......it is not questioned ......it is not studied more ......... people do not look deeper because they already know the law .

IN reality there are no laws ............just commonly held theorys .
Your wording was very careful
You said "t does not mean the laws are not how things tends to behave."
Tends to behave ........ so you know that the laws are not really laws if they just describe a tendency to behave in a particular way . If a law was actually a law there would be no tendancy .........there would only be obedience of the law.
But nature is not like that ......... There is ALWAYS an exception.
It is the exceptions that we seek

Quote

we are living in a greedy world.
if someone find something that can be sold, it will take time before all the details get out.
but what does that have to do with thrusting science's facts ?

here you are assuming that there is a desire within the scientific comunity to get the facts out .
The main desire within the scientific comunity is the same desire as in any other profession .......to maintain their jobs ........and maybe move up .
It has nothing to do with honesty .......it has nothing to do with integrety .
A scientist that turns in a report that runs counter to the agenda of the company will soon be unemployed .
You can not know if a study can be trusted untill you know who paid for the study .
WHen I was young they used to tell who did the study ........now ......... a " scientific study " is gospel ......it is true because it is a scientific study .
I have heard of thoiusands of studies being quoted on the news in the last few years .....NONE of them stated the source . We are lead to blindly believe any study put before us .

Quote
science is the observation of how nature is working.
do you really think one can hide how its really behave for long while telling only parts of it ?

yes

the truth is hidden in plain sight .
There is no one more blind than a blind man that thinks he has "the sight "
People are actively taught that OU is impossible .......along with all the other facts that they are taught .
Because it was taught along with all the other facts it is taken as true ......

The best way to hide a lie is in the middle of alot of truth .
Most of what you have been taught is true ....... but some of what you were taught was manufactured to prevent people from finding OU .

Quote
i don't even thrust my own self...

i prefectly know that one can't learn everything in his life time.
base on that fact, i can see why some parts of the knowledge you are speaking of are set aside.
you will get those knowledge only if you are going to specialise in a specific field.
can't you see that ?

I do specalise in in several specific fields ....... just none that can be taught in school
Personal integrity
Self awareness and love ..........by far the greatest of these is love .
If you understand enough about love , the love itself will show you the way.

Quote
using the definition of OU: "tapping an unknown source"
you are mostly right.
but like in everything, there are exceptions tho.

where did you get that definition of OU?

OU is over unity

Unity is breaking even .

Over Unity is going above breaking even .

All your " laws " say that OU is impossible ........ your laws state that there is no perpetual motion ...........yet the universe still exists in spite of your laws
The electrons continue to spin endlessly and effortlessly around the outer shells of ALL the atoms .
All that exists is in a state of perpetual motion . ........even life itself

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 22, 2009, 05:36:06 PM

GARY A MOST WONDERFUL POST ....

;D

WE MUST REAMIN A CHILD AT PLAY TO REDISCOVER THE TRUTH

LOVE HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE ONLY WAY BUT HUMANS HAD TO DISCOVER HATE ...

HENCE THE REASON FOR BOTH LOVE AND HATE

SO YOU CAN DISCOVER YOUR INNER SELF AND MOST WONT BE ABLE TO UNLESS WE LIVED IN A WORLD OF HARD TIMES ... AND EXPERIENCED LOVE AND HATE ONLY TO THEN CHOOSE THE CORRECT PATH OF LIFE ...

THIS EARTH IS A FAR MORE MISTRYIOUS PLACE THAN WHAT SO FEW REALIZE .... ;)

IST!

NICE TIP TOO CAP 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 22, 2009, 05:42:48 PM

Hi everybody,

Please excuse the interruption in this philosophical discussion...

I just timed the fluoro tube today at 5 hr. 15 minutes on one AA battery.
This confirms it. The 15 watt lasts longer than the 7 watt tube. (easier to light in the first place too.)

Throw all of it out the window and start over!!

I also posted a new type of drawing on the 2 tier circuit. (next door)
As promised, this is an attempt to draw it in the way
Tesla drew his parallel AC circuits.
I believe this and a development of this kind of drawing might be necessary.

The other (more conventional) kind of circuit drawing might be impossibly dense and difficult to understand when dealing with these kinds of multiple levels of parallel loads and wires.

Please have a look.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 22, 2009, 06:42:26 PM

Jeanna:

I am not surprised one bit by your findings as they match what I have seen. At first, it appears counter-intuitive but, after thinking about Gadget's explanation of how we are lighting the tubes without the filament, it makes sense. So see...bigger is better...and easier too.

I wonder how many folks tried lighting a 4 watt and failed and never tried to light something larger?

Do they make 80" tubes?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 22, 2009, 07:36:50 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 22, 2009, 06:42:26 PM

...Gadget's explanation of how we are lighting the tubes without the filament, it makes sense. So see...bigger is better...and easier too.

I wonder how many folks tried lighting a 4 watt and failed and never tried to light something larger?

yes, good thought. Maybe even jose Pino could have lit one.

So, Bill, did you get your 48 inchers this year? I do hope these easy starters are not a thing of the past.

Speaking of gadget...
He made an addition to a circuit of his after or I could say within the secondary and managed to achieve 1300 volts.

He is a radio guy with a lot of intuition.
I have noticed that the radio guys have a sense about these things that cannot really be drawn. I am trying to make a usable drawing, based on Tesla's drawings for this kind of divergence from the normal dc closed circuit.

I think closed and open are part of it too.The ac drawn with nested parallel circuits within the main one is a kind of open, because it doesn't ever have to end. It is not going to end in the battery because it is going the other way. Of course Tesla did say they could just touch the floor or wall to be grounded.

See if you can make any sense out of my drawing next door. Please think of it as nested parallel circuits. then comment and I will see if I can make it more clear.

BTW where is gadget?
Hey gadget, are you there? You could make a sensible comment on that drawing too. Maybe it can help with the kind of addons you do as well?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on June 22, 2009, 09:16:39 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 22, 2009, 05:07:18 PM
IN reality there are no laws ............just commonly held theorys .
Your wording was very careful
You said "t does not mean the laws are not how things tends to behave."
Tends to behave ........ so you know that the laws are not really laws if they just describe a tendency to behave in a particular way . If a law was actually a law there would be no tendancy .........there would only be obedience of the law.
But nature is not like that ......... There is ALWAYS an exception.
It is the exceptions that we seek

you don't get it, at least you are not seeing them as you should be.

physic's laws apply to specific things.
do you know to what and when they apply ?

yes, there are always exceptions.
do you know them and why they are exceptions ?
do not think those exceptions are not known, they are.
laws are what they are because their limits are known.

Quote from: resonanceman on June 22, 2009, 05:07:18 PM
here you are assuming that there is a desire within the scientific comunity to get the facts out .
The main desire within the scientific comunity is the same desire as in any other profession .......to maintain their jobs ........and maybe move up .
It has nothing to do with honesty .......it has nothing to do with integrety .
A scientist that turns in a report that runs counter to the agenda of the company will soon be unemployed .
You can not know if a study can be trusted untill you know who paid for the study .
WHen I was young they used to tell who did the study ........now ......... a " scientific study " is gospel ......it is true because it is a scientific study .
I have heard of thoiusands of studies being quoted on the news in the last few years .....NONE of them stated the source . We are lead to blindly believe any study put before us .

i am assuming nothing about scientists behaviors.

those biased studies are verified facts now ?
that is what they want you to think.
they will eventualy loose their jobs anyway if the results are falsified.
a compagny can't build anything based on lies and ommitions
those publications are not even done by scientists.
they are marketing tactic, not the whole truth.
the only thing they can do is trying to sell thier actual product(s) with those tactics.

can i point to you that what you are saying about "desires" apply to about everyone on our planet,
i was specificaly thinking to some who are claiming OU on this forum as as i wrote "everyone".

Quote from: resonanceman on June 22, 2009, 05:07:18 PM
yes

the truth is hidden in plain sight .
There is no one more blind than a blind man that thinks he has "the sight "
People are actively taught that OU is impossible .......along with all the other facts that they are taught .
Because it was taught along with all the other facts it is taken as true ......

The best way to hide a lie is in the middle of alot of truth .
Most of what you have been taught is true ....... but some of what you were taught was manufactured to prevent people from finding OU .

i do not agree with you on this.
hidding things in plain sight never last very long before someone notice it.

Quote from: resonanceman on June 22, 2009, 05:07:18 PM
where did you get that definition of OU?

somewhere in this jt tread.
i quoted it as it is not what i think it is.
everyone have it own idea on what OU is.

Quote from: resonanceman on June 22, 2009, 05:07:18 PM
All your " laws " say that OU is impossible ........ your laws state that there is no perpetual motion ...........yet the universe still exists in spite of your laws
The electrons continue to spin endlessly and effortlessly around the outer shells of ALL the atoms .
All that exists is in a state of perpetual motion . ........even life itself

this is where you got it wrong.
what is saying that they are spinning endlessly and will be doing so eternaly ?

the laws you are refering too state that you can't have more energy in a system then then what is putted in.
being you or an external factor(s), in whatever energy form, that is/are inputing the energy does not matter.
they simply add up.
that laws does not even remotly talk about the imposibilities of having perpetual(long lasting) motion.
that myth about the imposibilities of perpetual motion base on this laws are actually propagated by peoples uneducated in the field.

to me nothing is perpetual, everythings will eventualy change.
at least that is what i see of what is surrounding me.

this will be my last post on this subject.
i am saying this so you don't think i am starting to ignore your posts.
i think we can agree that we disagree on this subject.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on June 22, 2009, 09:23:20 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 22, 2009, 06:42:26 PM
Do they make 80" tubes?

there are 8 feet commercial tube.

and if i remember right, they don't have heating filaments at their ends...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 22, 2009, 10:09:13 PM

@ jeanna

Can you compare your 3" toroid results with stprue's 3" toroid results. It seems to me that you are using the same toroid and transistor but he is getting over 800 volts out and is able to easily light two tubes but you are only getting about 400 volts out and have difficulty lightling one tube. Why do you think the results are so different? Thanks.

PS - I bought some 3" toroids and I am trying to decide what to do with them. They sure are big.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 22, 2009, 10:37:26 PM

Quote from: xee2 on June 22, 2009, 10:09:13 PM
@ jeanna

Can you compare your 3" toroid results with stprue's 3" toroid results.
...
PS - I bought some 3" toroids and I am trying to decide what to do with them. They sure are big.

And heavy too. Cool, I am glad you have these too. That's 3 of us.
edit:
I found it.
I must have been asleep. I even responded.

...

I will put together some contrasts.

The first big one is about 2 inches of windings. His is filled up and mine has lots of room.. well maybe not that much but over an inch..

He uses Hazens design primary as do I
I used 24 gauge newbie wire and he filled his up with 30 gauge. mmm that is most likely it.

He also uses the wall for power so it would be nice to see how long a AA lasts with this biggo with someone else's set up.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 22, 2009, 11:02:51 PM

@jadaro

Tell me did you try top rap the coils in aluminum foil?

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 22, 2009, 11:26:05 PM

@TheNOP

Quote from: TheNOP on June 22, 2009, 02:45:16 AM
yes.
AC and DC can share the same wire and still be considered separate components.

there is also a particularity with AC.
you can have a lots of different signals in the same wire and still be able to separate them.

Thankyou.
jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 22, 2009, 11:26:34 PM

@jeanna

I made a new mk , with one pick up coil going one way and the other both , and both pickup coil light the led both ways so the secondary both way doesn't make it happen but the jt coil at 180. The mk was never design for a 3 inch toroid , it was design to make the most of the 1 inch toroid, but now tell me ca you put a coil at the 180 form the jt coil , and check if voltage is similar or not , or even more fun you could but a second jt circuit on at 180.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 22, 2009, 11:44:19 PM

Hi Mark I will get to that in a minute.

@xee,
This is what I can say about the comparison of stprue's and mine.

Quoted text is from stprue

QuoteHere is my most recent achievement. Please feel free to replicate if you wish but keep in mind I'm sure I can get the performance to go up.

PARTS
1 Biggo Ferrite Toroid from all electronics ...
1 2N3055 transistor from RS
1 1000v bridge rectifier

===
no rectifier
===

Quote1 400v metalized cap at I believe .01pF
3 2.5v 10F supercaps from maxwell

===
I should remember to fix my mistake with the battery rail caps.
I put 2 47uF caps in series thinking I was adding more farads, but they should have been in parallel. I forgot to fix that again this morning.
tomorrow is a new day!
---

Quote1 POT I think mine is a 1K but it might be more.

===
The base resistor is ~90ohm
Tuning the pot got the pickup volts up from 80v to 450v.
===

Quote
3 Base turns
15 Collector turns
both with 30 gauge mag wire from RS

===

13Base turns
3 collector turns.
24 gauge tele wire
mine would not even turn ON until I had more than 8 on the base, and when I reversed the 3T, for the 13T It started to sing and... 450 AC volts was the results. Peak to peak.
===

Quote265 turns on the Pickup with 28 gauge wire I pulled out of a levatron.

===
Mine is newbie wire 24 gauge.
===
I asked about the bridge and he answered...

QuoteThe bridge only has the basic primary in it like Hazen1 would do.

The metalized cap might be .1pF I didn't have time to check on all my parts but it is either .01 or .1 at 400v

the one metalized cap is coming off the bridge and is on both the - and + ( be careful this will blow most LEDs)
the supercaps are hooked up on the input voltage side but are at the end and past the coil wires ++ and - for the emitter

===
In the end he replied with:

QuoteYes the 2N3055 will start up hooked up either way but if I switch it around it is like 2 or 3 hundred volts.

===
This is true in part for me too.
I found that amount of difference from 80v Peak to peak went to 450 volts p2p.
BUT as I have said, mine would not even turn on until I had 13 turns on the base.
I have 2 3055's that I wired up and tried with this too.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 22, 2009, 11:45:43 PM

@TheNOP

Quote from: TheNOP on June 22, 2009, 02:11:30 AM
thanks

there are 2 reasons for why i am like that.
the first is my fear of not be understood because of my english.

I wouldn't worry too much about not being understood, because of your english, as far as I am concerned its understandable, well to me anyway.

Being brought up New Guinea, I learnt Pigion English before english, so it took a while for me to learn the english, I always had trouble with it, so you are not alone Bro.

I'm glad this forum has a chap like you here, (and others also) who does know a lot about electricity, it's formulas etc etc. You are a treasure house of knowledge NOP.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 23, 2009, 12:02:00 AM

Hi Mark,
I think most of my difficulty here is with language, so please bear with me...

Quote from: Mk1 on June 22, 2009, 11:26:34 PM
@jeanna

I made a new mk , with one pick up coil going one way and the other both

OK you made one MK with half of it wound straight and the other half wound up and down?

Quote, and both pickup coil light the led both ways

Yes, they should be able to light leds.

Quoteso the secondary both way doesn't make it happen but the jt coil at 180.

[does?]
You lost me here.
Please try to say this again.

Quote
The mk was never design for a 3 inch toroid , it was design to make the most of the 1 inch toroid,

Yeah well, it works great. better than I expected, but I don't know.

Quotebut now tell me can you put a coil at the 180 from the jt coil , and check if voltage is similar or not , or even more fun you could but a second jt circuit on at 180.

In fact there is another jt at the 180 just sitting there. It is the one that had too few turns on it so I couldn't get the transistor going.

I was actually planning to make a 4 direction (the mk1 design) pickup on that section of toroid, just to see, but I want to finish looking at my set up first.
I want to fix the battery caps.
I noticed today when I moved the breadboard and I happened to touch the top of one of those caps, the light flickered deeply. I may only need to have more farads less volts there. (I have 25 uF 200v instead of 100uF 50v at the battery.)

please help me understand your suggestions.
thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 23, 2009, 12:09:44 AM

@jeanna

I am saying that the way the pick up coil on the mk up and down doesn't make the LED light both ways , but the jt coil at 180 do.

second , since you got room for more coil i tough you could try going back to the regular mk since now you got a mix of two design , or put a second jt(full circuit) on the other side.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 23, 2009, 12:25:48 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 23, 2009, 12:09:44 AM
I am saying that the way the pick up coil on the mk up and down doesn't make the LED light both ways , but the jt coil at 180 do.

Oh, do you mean the one with the cross to the other side?

Quotesecond , since you got room for more coil i thought you could try going back to the regular mk since now you got a mix of two design , or put a second jt(full circuit) on the other side.

I am sorry, I still do not understand.
1-going back to the regular mk. I remember 3 kinds of basic jt coils from you... and I remember the first has the 13 which would be up 7 back 6 and the 3 would be up 2 back 1. Is that the regular one?
---
2-What is a second jt full circuit? I won't guess, please just explain what this is again. I apologize.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 23, 2009, 12:47:51 AM

@xee,
I just fixed the 47uF caps and they now should be giving me 100uF at 50 volts.
The sequence for turning the light on is the same. No problem or magic, I just need to wrap my hands around the ends of the tube until it feels about hand temperature, then add the neo mag to one end, then draw the light across. I can then let go and remove the magnet.

It is not 104 in the car here. It was about 65 degrees today. I am assuming the temperature (and about 80 turns ;)) is the only thing slowing this down.
Oh, it seems a bit brighter than earlier.

Does this seem right to you that it should be brighter?

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 23, 2009, 12:59:29 AM

mk1 ...

check this out youll love it ;)

i bet you know how this works and what it could do ......

lol

ist

ill post a picture tommorow i found today that ali drew a long time ago just for this post!! ;)

what would the result be if i locked with in this a closed loop orbit ......

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 23, 2009, 02:14:30 AM

@ALL, Time for another CARTOON, who R the stars this time he he

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 23, 2009, 02:30:14 AM

Jim:

Great cartoon!!! I love it!

We have had even more severe thunderstorms today....no tornadoes. More storms due in tomorrow. Every time there is one in the area, I have to shut down my computer!!! The good news is that maybe all that lightning is charging up my earth battery to new levels.

When the storms began last week, I disconnected my ultracap. I was concerned that a near lightning strike may over juice it and it might blow up! This is getting crazy.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on June 23, 2009, 05:42:24 AM

Quote from: Cap-Z-ro on June 22, 2009, 04:03:10 PM
@ jadaro,

In reference to your previous post...

" In addition to the attempt, I placed a neomag on the coil, and the voltage output decrease significantly. It appears as though bringing a permanent magnet near a BO-JTC coil setup is decreasing the performance of those coils when they're being used as an oscillator. "

In disassembling a microwave magnetron I found 2 toroid magnets (failed to note the polarity configuration tho)...considering that it and the j/t both deal with high frequency, it stands to reason that 2 magnets in various arrangements would have to be similarly applied to the j/t before giving up on the concept.

Hope that is of value somehow.

Regards...

I believe that the magnets in the magnetron are to direct the microwaves much the same way as is done with the electrons in a cathode ray tube.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 23, 2009, 05:49:32 AM

@ jeanna

Thanks for your feedback on the 3" toroids. I think I will try the same design I have been using on the 2" toroid and see if that will also work on the 3" toroid.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 23, 2009, 06:15:26 AM

@Pirate,

Thanks Bill, I had a lot more "stuff" to add to the cartoon but there just wasnt enough space on the A4 ha ha, ohhhh I love it.
You betta get a home Weather Radar to dodge those storms, or string up a wire high on a balloon, then connect it to earth via a battery charger, I hear it will make thunder storms a bit less powerful.

If you havent got a lightning arrester on your ph line, get one, any strike on your line even if it is 10mile away can travel through to you, if the strike hits your cable, then it's buy bye modem PC.

Actually, I have seen what lightning can do, it struck my Dads workshop main switchboard one night, there were black holes blasted all through it as big as your fist, what a mess, burnt wiring etc etc.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Thaelin on June 23, 2009, 06:45:14 AM

@Jenna:
It is a known fact that a cold FL tube is harder to light than a warm one. One place I worked, we had to switch lighting so we could see in the winter just because of that.

@jadaro:
The magnets in a magnetron are to force the electrons into a circular path towards the anode instead of a direct path. As they travel past the odd/even strapped vanes in it, it causes the output frequency. Each one of the cavities in turn resonates to the set frequency which is the output. On of the cavities has a probe in it which is used to extract to the outside wave guide. The magnets are N/S on the faces the best I can figure. I have ten sets to play with. The diodes were like $25 each and I get the whole thing for $5

AND NOW, Please dont play with the magnetron out of its wave guide. That stub out of the end is the output probe. You will be bathed with about 80% of the input power but at water disruptive frequency. It cooks from the inside out.

This is why all cell towers carry a placard at ground level warning you of radiation hazard.

thay

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 23, 2009, 08:40:28 AM

thay...

maybe now this explains all that UV... out there hummm

liveing inside a micro wave.. cooking us and the earth ..

my question would be what are the results of this ... on a cosmos scale

would it have the potencial to cancel the incomeing waves that holds the plannet where it should be

and if it does .... well oooo better fix it !!!!!

ist!

just wondering a lould ... as per usual

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 23, 2009, 09:56:29 AM

Quote from: Thaelin on June 23, 2009, 06:45:14 AM
@Jenna:
It is a known fact that a cold FL tube is harder to light than a warm one. One place I worked, we had to switch lighting so we could see in the winter just because of that.

@jadaro:
The magnets in a magnetron are to force the electrons into a circular path towards the anode instead of a direct path. As they travel past the odd/even strapped vanes in it, it causes the output frequency. Each one of the cavities in turn resonates to the set frequency which is the output. On of the cavities has a probe in it which is used to extract to the outside wave guide. The magnets are N/S on the faces the best I can figure. I have ten sets to play with. The diodes were like $25 each and I get the whole thing for $5

AND NOW, Please dont play with the magnetron out of its wave guide. That stub out of the end is the output probe. You will be bathed with about 80% of the input power but at water disruptive frequency. It cooks from the inside out.

This is why all cell towers carry a placard at ground level warning you of radiation hazard.

thay

The fact is we are being bobbarded with microwaves from towers to satellites . the energy output is minimal on one but take that and multiply it by approx 200,000 and you have us cooking . look at all the cancer . this is a main cause i fell . you can extract that energy with a tuned cavity like the magnatron use a dish to focus the singnals on the dipole of the magnatron to capture the radiation already in the air and see the out put on the magnetron input as volts . I have played with magnatrons and am not scared of them . you can light fl tubes up with it for 100's of feet and shield it with a directv dish :) If you play stay behind it. its very similar to a gigaplexer which is like a radar cavity on your radar detector except we hams use it to talk thru . 1000's of watts directed with a wave guide or "DISH" . . WARNING . you have to be experienced Licensed radio Technician and Electrical Technician before you even try to hook one up and attempt to Broadcast / modulate with Microwaves .
Good to know to got one apart . I have wondered what kind of magnet that was . Is it ferrite or Neodymium rings ? If its super strong its probably an alloy of Neodymium /cobalt iron .. Edit*** found the answer they are samarium cobalt . and some tube in them have the magnets inside the tube or at least there is a patent for it (reminds me of Sweet's vacuum tube using barium .cobalt magnets to extract energy from his vacuum tube ) This warrants experiments with two magnets with the Jt torroid in the middle . I think it raises the frequency higher than most transistors can handle therefor the jt light usually goes out or gets dim when we place a magnet near a torroid.Just need a microwave transistor . i have a few and need to dig them out . they look like a can transistor with flat leads .

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 23, 2009, 10:02:32 AM

Quote from: jeanna on June 22, 2009, 11:44:19 PM
Hi Mark I will get to that in a minute.

@xee,
This is what I can say about the comparison of stprue's and mine.

Quoted text is from stprue===
no rectifier
======
I should remember to fix my mistake with the battery rail caps.
I put 2 47uF caps in series thinking I was adding more farads, but they should have been in parallel. I forgot to fix that again this morning.
tomorrow is a new day!
---===
The base resistor is ~90ohm
Tuning the pot got the pickup volts up from 80v to 450v.
======

13Base turns
3 collector turns.
24 gauge tele wire
mine would not even turn ON until I had more than 8 on the base, and when I reversed the 3T, for the 13T It started to sing and... 450 AC volts was the results. Peak to peak.
======
Mine is newbie wire 24 gauge.
===
I asked about the bridge and he answered...===
In the end he replied with:
===
This is true in part for me too.
I found that amount of difference from 80v Peak to peak went to 450 volts p2p.
BUT as I have said, mine would not even turn on until I had 13 turns on the base.
I have 2 3055's that I wired up and tried with this too.

jeanna

I was wrong about two things my POT was a 500ohm set low, I'm not sure how low, and my wiring was..

3 Base turns
15 collector turns.
22 gauge mag wire

265 on Primary
24 gauge mag wire

I used the thicker gauge because I wasn't sure if 30 could saturate the core enough to get the desired effect, but my next one will use thinner wire!

@Jeanna

My AC voltage with this biggo is like 47v, I'm not sure if it's my set up or the way I wound it or maybe we have stumbled upon another benifit of the MK design! Hummm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on June 23, 2009, 11:55:59 AM

Quote from: electricme on June 23, 2009, 02:14:30 AM
@ALL, Time for another CARTOON, who R the stars this time he he

lol
nice drawing.
it look way more cleaner then my work bench...

i wish i could take pictures.
just to give you an idea, think of a scrap yard but filled with electronic junk pilled here and there in a 8' x 12' area.
with books, old computers, computer parts and accessories, almost all over the rest on the basement.
i am cleanning up tho, slowly...
i recycle everything that can be.

thanks for your previous comment.
but know that this house of knowledges is as crippled as my basement.
so you better do your homework and cross-reference what i am saying.
just like you should do with everyone informations.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 23, 2009, 12:09:48 PM

yep i do agree with you the nop

must always check

im well aware that some things i have said in the past were not correct this does not bother me tho as we are all here to learn ...

learning is accepting where we were wrong ..

but agin nobody did it alone NOT EVEN TESLA ... ;) he had a team ...

we also must realize that where our thoughts come from then we will realize our work infact is not our own ... :)

here is a pic ali drew fom me to give to you all :)

ist

nice jim :) those cartoons :) peace bro!! almost there .... ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 23, 2009, 01:30:14 PM

@ist

There are some old tales from the Celtic energy in knot , but this looks even more familiar, lol , its a triple coil orbiter like ED but with a third coil ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 23, 2009, 01:51:38 PM

love the design ...

bros

yes it will start from a swipe of a magnet ....

we can do this .... ;)

ist! ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 23, 2009, 01:59:56 PM

lots of timeouts this morning...

Quote from: stprue on June 23, 2009, 10:02:32 AM

@Jeanna

My AC voltage with this biggo is like 47v, I'm not sure if it's my set up or the way I wound it or maybe we have stumbled upon another benifit of the MK design! Hummm

My DMM right now says my secondary is 99VAC
An analog meter I recently got says around 450acv which it is. The sweephand and meter is way too small for useful reading, but the confirmation is nice to have.

It would be helpful if you could remove the battery and read the ohm value on the pot. It will be different for different people and transistors, but with the same toroid core, I got the best results of 450vac as seen on the scope, with 60-90 ohm. I am also trying to find just the right stationary resistor so I can build this into something.

xee gave me a link to an electronics store (help xee!) that happens to have a better version of my scope for the same or less than I paid for mine. (I paid $185.00 from allelectronics, but they were out of stock last I looked...)

Thanks for the infos,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 23, 2009, 02:14:21 PM

Quote from: Thaelin on June 23, 2009, 06:45:14 AM
@Jeanna:
It is a known fact that a cold FL tube is harder to light than a warm one. One place I worked, we had to switch lighting so we could see in the winter just because of that.

thay

oooo coold place to work.

Thank you for this confirmation, thay.
I know I have one cfl that will only light on winter mornings if I wrap my hand around it to warm it.

So, it may be the only thing that is slowing things down here in the maritime west coast, where a Turtle-neck shirt is the morning uniform even on days that end up in the 80's.

I also have very high humidity here, esp in winter. It is kind of opposite everyone else inland and to the east.

So, if we are not heating our tubes and we are using high volts/freq to get them going maybe I need more than everyone else just to overcome the coolth and moisture levels here...

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 23, 2009, 02:44:03 PM

OOOPIE ... DUBBLE POST

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 23, 2009, 02:51:27 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 23, 2009, 01:59:56 PM
lots of timeouts this morning...
My DMM right now says my secondary is 99VAC
An analog meter I recently got says around 450acv which it is. The sweephand and meter is way too small for useful reading, but the confirmation is nice to have.

So an analog scope shows 450 and a DDM shows 99? I'm very confused by this!

xee gave me a link to an electronics store (help xee!) that happens to have a better version of my scope for the same or less than I paid for mine. (I paid $185.00 from allelectronics, but they were out of stock last I looked...)

Thanks for the infos,

jeanna
[/quote]

I really want to get one ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 23, 2009, 02:55:55 PM

@Jeanna

This is the scope I want!

http://www.mpja.com/prodinfo.asp?number=17274+TE

Great web site too if you haven't found this one yet!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on June 23, 2009, 04:04:24 PM

Quote from: stprue on June 23, 2009, 02:51:27 PM
So an analog scope shows 450 and a DDM shows 99? I'm very confused by this!

one is showing the peek voltage, the other attempt to show the RMS value.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 23, 2009, 04:12:25 PM

Quote from: TheNOP on June 23, 2009, 04:04:24 PM
one is showing the peek voltage, the other attempt to show the RMS value.

Ahhhh I see now, thank you TheNOP.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 23, 2009, 04:30:33 PM

Quote from: stprue on June 23, 2009, 02:55:55 PM
@Jeanna

This is the scope I want!

http://www.mpja.com/prodinfo.asp?number=17274+TE

Great web site too if you haven't found this one yet!

I have no idea.
I got the velleman one which says it is not a digital oscope but a real one. The readout only is digital.

I really cannot comment more than that. Someone else could.
The fact that the readout is digital is just crummy looking, but since it is really reading the stuff coming in and not digitizing it until it is on the screen, seems better to me.
Or, it could just be a gimmick.
The info is available at http://www.vellemanusa.com/us/enu/product/view/?id=521603 (http://www.vellemanusa.com/us/enu/product/view/?id=521603) as well as a pdf of the terse manual. ;)

Ask someone who knows, or ask one of the vendors for the differences.
I do know you want something very flexible, because we see some unexpected things hereabouts.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 23, 2009, 06:15:36 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 23, 2009, 04:30:33 PM
I have no idea.
I got the velleman one which says it is not a digital oscope but a real one. The readout only is digital.

I really cannot comment more than that. Someone else could.
The fact that the readout is digital is just crummy looking, but since it is really reading the stuff coming in and not digitizing it until it is on the screen, seems better to me.
Or, it could just be a gimmick.
The info is available at http://www.vellemanusa.com/us/enu/product/view/?id=521603 (http://www.vellemanusa.com/us/enu/product/view/?id=521603) as well as a pdf of the terse manual. ;)

Ask someone who knows, or ask one of the vendors for the differences.
I do know you want something very flexible, because we see some unexpected things hereabouts.

jeanna

I was just letting you know that this is/looks like a great scope but the website itself is good so you should check it out! ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 23, 2009, 06:57:39 PM

Hi stprue,
I will.

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on June 23, 2009, 07:50:23 PM

@jeanna
your actual scope is telling you both, peeks and average(@60Hz = RMS).

one thing i am not sure if you know or not is that what a dmm is usually showing is the average voltage.
that average voltage pack more energy then the peek value you are reading with your scope.
to compair the voltage values of a dmm you need to compair it to the average values your scope give you, not to the peek value.

to be fully analog a scope require that no digitalisation(sampling) be made to display a signal.
a lcd display is digital by nature.

some analog scope also have a sampling rating.
but that is for signal storage and replay.

the highest frequency rating of a scope is the minimum time a scope can display the exact signal.
a 10MHz scope will not be able to display a 20MHz signal.
this is due to the fact that its internal circuits are not made for an higher frequency then 10MHz.

in an analog scope each position of the time scale redirect the signal to a different circuit.
this is needed to syncronize it to the display scanning rate in real time.

on a digital scope an A/D(analog to digital) converter is used.
todays cheap and mid range digital scope are using a 8 bits converter.
that mean 256 different posible steps(vertical axis) * the sampling rate(horizontal axis).
it is not a in real time display of the signal.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 23, 2009, 08:38:29 PM

Ah theNOP
Your last sentence is probably the best reason that stprue should not spend over 500 on a scope that is like mine.

I would like everyone here to have access to a scope, but not pay a lot for a pictorial display of a dmm. Mine makes a big deal that it is not a pictorial display of a dmm.

Mine will also give the rms, but it really does not apply to what I am doing; however it may be close to the dmm.

I gave the dmm results only so stprue could make his own comparisons.
I only use the vac on mine to let me know the range so when I turn on the scope it is safe.

My scope at peak to peak shows the spikes. The spikes are what is going into the 800 range and lighting fluoros.

I admit to not knowing much. I appreciate helpful help, too.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 23, 2009, 09:18:27 PM

Hi everybody,

Here is a little description of how to make the MK1
It really is only how to make the secondary part.
MK1 describes 3 ways to make the primary part. I peronally do not find them very different, so I do not want to bias this, by choosing one.
====
Overview first:

All the winds go the same way...from over the top through the center and around and up again.
You will be wrapping the coil in 3 directions ultimately. (because it is a toroid, this means the mags move 4 times)
Start at the bottom and end at the bottom.
You will end up with 2 wires.

In this example the total winds will be 40.
OK here goes:

Starting at the bottom left side leave a nice long tail for later connections and
wrap the wire up 10 times
wrap one more then return to the bottom.
(if you don't understand this, draw 10 hatch marks on a paper then count the spaces in between them)

At the bottom, after you have wound 20 turns you are coming out the bottom, so go over the primary windings and continue through the center.
(you can pull out a few inches for a center tap before diving through the center again.)
Continue winding 10 more turns up the right side and
wind one more and
wind down the right side to the bottom.
The total turns is 40.

Leave a nice tail.
Cut
sand the varnish off the tails-connect, and - tune.

(of course, you can wind the opposite way from my description; but, the point is to stay wrapping the same way throughout.)
Keep the crossed wires in the center if possible and on the outside put the down wires in between the up wires.

have fun,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 23, 2009, 09:25:44 PM

@ThaNOP,
Thank you

Quote from: TheNOP on June 23, 2009, 11:55:59 AM
lol
nice drawing.
it look way more cleaner then my work bench...

i wish i could take pictures.
just to give you an idea, think of a scrap yard but filled with electronic junk pilled here and there in a 8' x 12' area.
with books, old computers, computer parts and accessories, almost all over the rest on the basement.
i am cleanning up tho, slowly...
i recycle everything that can be.

thanks for your previous comment.
but know that this house of knowledges is as crippled as my basement.
so you better do your homework and cross-reference what i am saying.
just like you should do with everyone informations.

Actually you discribe my place here nicely ha ha.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 23, 2009, 10:55:02 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 23, 2009, 09:18:27 PM
Hi everybody,

Here is a little description of how to make the MK1
It really is only how to make the secondary part.
MK1 describes 3 ways to make the primary part. I personally do not find them very different, so I do not want to bias this, by choosing one.

@jeanna

This is so important , it dictate the current phase , but i guess you can't really see that on a scope and your reticence to use diode , doesn't help you there because there is stuff missing in your knowledge . You would have made greater progress if you had tried my directions on tuning (always adjust pot), but that stuff is still missing , i can't address this you can.

And don't get me wrong keeping the ac is fine by me , but learning first .

Coils ,battery led(diode) are bi polar , so you need to see them in both direction.
It will help connect secondaries together.

I scope on a coil will tell you how much there is , but dose it tell you witch end of the pickup coil is the output or input.

I know you don't like gray area but , minimizing unknown ignoring them and sticking to sure bets , got us here today looking for the missing parts , so lets not go there again .

Plus those are magnetic 101 info.

Btw the difference between the regular mk primary and the X2 is not voltage but freq...
This is why , every time you change the design on the primary adjust the base resistor.
Otherwise you are seeing and learning what you should , and are unable to determine real improvement .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 23, 2009, 11:19:15 PM

@IST
I agree too, those words are good advice.

Quote from: innovation_station on June 23, 2009, 12:09:48 PM
yep i do agree with you the nop

must always check

im well aware that some things i have said in the past were not correct this does not bother me tho as we are all here to learn ...

learning is accepting where we were wrong ..

but agin nobody did it alone NOT EVEN TESLA ... ;) he had a team ...

we also must realize that where our thoughts come from then we will realize our work infact is not our own ... :)

here is a pic ali drew fom me to give to you all :)

ist

nice jim :) those cartoons :) peace bro!! almost there .... ;)

IST, you gotta frame that pic, they are treassures. :D

ooooo gotta watch out we don't use too many smilies, they turnintoheadroads 8)

At the moment I am making two work benches, big long one for building my JT's and bedini's with a top shelf for the power supplies, Counter, crows soldering iron and 6 way power board.

Other one for a couple of Laptops I have, I need kitchen space real estate lol.

Just thought of another one to make, groan, a wide Battery recharge shelf, with a small cabinet to hold all the good rechargeable batteries and their test stuff, and a place to put the batt powered drills on to. :D

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 23, 2009, 11:34:49 PM

@All,
I can see the 3 phase JT being born, just look at it, Delta connect configuration, then mabe a Star configuration, phew, energy approaches.

Quote from: Mk1 on June 23, 2009, 01:30:14 PM
@ist

There are some old tales from the Celtic energy in knot , but this looks even more familiar, lol , its a triple coil orbiter like ED but with a third coil ...

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 23, 2009, 11:48:08 PM

@electricme

Delta and star , i personally think they are nice for motor ,but there is nothing exciting or efficient about them , but they have great names must be a easy sell ...

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 24, 2009, 12:50:55 AM

Quote from: electricme on June 23, 2009, 09:25:44 PM
@ThaNOP,
Thank you Actually you discribe my place here nicely ha ha.

jim

:D Same here guys . I'm a pack rat and hate to throw stuff away and when i finally do i miss it and either go buy it again or dig in my local Treasure Dumpster and pile it in a a tine 10 x 12 so called "room" being sure to leave a one to two foot path :) . I am not ashamed anymore !
@Jim . I loved the cartoon and am using it as a desktop background.Cant wait for a final picture . make sure you put bill and jenna in there ;)that will be a prize.
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on June 24, 2009, 01:13:09 AM

Quote from: jeanna on June 23, 2009, 08:38:29 PM
Ah theNOP
Your last sentence is probably the best reason that stprue should not spend over 500 on a scope that is like mine.

its depend on the use you are going to do with it.
having only 256 voltage steps to display the peeks is not that bad.

the sampling rate is more important, the higher the better.
if you are not looking for possible distortions in a signal, or looking at modulated complex signals, a digital scope is a pretty good tool
the problem with them is that the distortions are likely to occure faster then the sampling rate.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 24, 2009, 01:17:59 AM

Me too.

That cartoon was a delight.

(Sometimes I can eat at my kitchen table and sometimes I cannot.)
I put the fluoro tube jt into a woven basket looking like bread, but not as tasty, the tube rests on the top edge so I can move the thing around and maybe eat at the table.

I had dinner with some friends tonight and took it with me since it is so portable. Ha. The house lights even went out for 30 seconds! That was pretty funny.
I still have 1 1/2 hours left for tonight's test with the caps in the way I originally intended.

Ya-Know, 5 1/4 hours is the full evening, Even in winter when the lights are on starting at 4:30, this light would last til 9:45 if I put it on at dusk in december. (Northern Hemisphere, of course.)

Hey Jim, You could test this out now, where's your 5 hour fluoro tube?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 24, 2009, 01:38:14 AM

Quote from: TheNOP on June 24, 2009, 01:13:09 AM
i
the sampling rate is more important, the higher the better.
i..
the problem with them is that the distortions are likely to occure faster then the sampling rate.

Mine has a sampling rate of 10MHz and 2MHz analogue bandwidth.
Good thing too, I sometimes get frequencies that push the analogue limits. I only cannot share the results, but I am willing to have that limitation. sorry.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 24, 2009, 02:58:10 AM

@ The Gadget
Thanks for the kind remarks :D fancy my cartoon being made into a screen saver whacko.

Quote from: gadgetmall on June 24, 2009, 12:50:55 AM
:D Same here guys . I'm a pack rat and hate to throw stuff away and when i finally do i miss it and either go buy it again or dig in my local Treasure Dumpster and pile it in a a tine 10 x 12 so called "room" being sure to leave a one to two foot path :) . I am not ashamed anymore !
@Jim . I loved the cartoon and am using it as a desktop background.Cant wait for a final picture . make sure you put bill and jenna in there ;)that will be a prize.
Gadget

"A" Al, Take another look at the picture, Left side window is the pirate, Right window peeking in is the IST, TheNOP is the teach.

Now it gets cryptic, who has the BLUE tori? who has the BIG "O" he he it is LJ. who has the Bedini? hmmmm,(several), who is working on the MOT? Gary.
Gadget, you R on the roof, remember the big round LED light fitting, and I included some wares you sell in your shop. ;D

Someone has had trouble with a breadboard, its in the rubbish bin.
I make cleavor cartoons lol.

Now, who runs a school for Joul Thiefs???? the mystery deepens, an I'm not telling, mums the word. ;D

Now, is wally there? ;)

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 24, 2009, 05:17:07 AM

@ Jeanna,

Quote from: jeanna on June 24, 2009, 01:17:59 AM
I put the fluoro tube jt into a woven basket looking like bread, but not as tasty,

Hey Jim, You could test this out now, where's your 5 hour fluoro tube?
jeanna

Carnt find it, musta left it in the bread thingie, :D seriously though, I have lit a fluro tube with my Hazens1 JT, made it gloooo, but I don't hold the record for 5 hours, the battery is on charge right now, so I will hang a fluro on it tomorrow sometime.

jim

@ALL
OOhhhhh I just had my buttons pressed, I an thousands of Australians are being picked on, their pullin our chains hard this time, talk about squeezin/wringing the last ounce of blood outa us.

Just heard on the tellie news here, all airconditioners except the most efficient types are to be banned, :o they must have 5 stars. From September next year it comes into force. >:( we are not alowed to even turn ours on, whackos, the dumps are gonna be full with all these old aircond fulla old freon gas. ohhhhhh.

GRRRRR, so how does the Invalid Pensioner afford to replace theirs? (I got 3 of em and 1 on the front verrandah just sitting there) no one is alowed to turn them on, even if they have one. :o :o

(I bet Hans VL will have something to say about this) ;)

STUPID GOVERNMENT hogwash.

Thats it, I'm all fired up now, I'm going to make a GIANT BEDINI to power my ineficient airconditioner, and my inefficient washingmachine, and my inefficient Lightning, my power hungry vaccuum cleaner, my power hogging hotwater system, and make enough power to charge the car, and cut the grass in summer time. >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(

Sorry everyone, if I seem a little upset, seems all gov people in AUSTRALIA have been born with half a brain, ;D and about as useful as tits on a bull, ;D and have a loose screw in the top paddock. ;D
Talk about drawing the short straw, fair suck of the sav,

awww time to do serious www search on J B motor, and buy a heep of the most powerful magnets I can find. :D

I'm GONNA stick my thumb to my nose and wriggle my fingers, an stick my toungue out and blow a rasburry at stupid officialdom, :-* ;D
Good official officialdom need not feel offended (there a dying ;)breed).

hooroo all
jim

PS if the post is tooooo agro, I'll remove it or Pirate can.
Just let me know. TA

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on June 24, 2009, 08:58:19 AM

jeanna said:

Quote
I keep thinking you are drawing this.
Are you?

I am. It's done in ASCII from the typical, industry standard "qwerty" keyboard that American PC computers have. I usually don't have a scanner and the software available at public venues to upload pictures.

Quote
If you are, this is the reason I want to begin a AC from the JT thread. I am getting closer to doing it. ;)

I saw the new thread later. Using a double tier may load the circuit(?) unless something like an additional(?) bucking coil (think: bifilar), Mobius coil, or Cadueus coil is used to increase efficiency, right?

Quote
I want to explore the question you pose. Our house wiring is set up in a way like this and my surprise 2 tier circuit was operating like this with different potentials at different areas.

Well, the JT does behave differently than most any other circuit because of the coil it uses. Electronic physics isn't necessarily the same as with the ordinary transformer.

Quote
I wasn't answering you because I thought you were/are wanting to make it into DC, but just in case you are not...

No. I was trying to point out a set of oppositely-wired caps could be set at 90 deg. to a JT and still recover HEMF/CEMF/BEMF and do so with as many sets as you like. I was told the plates might receive a negative charge on the positive plate of one in some cases (maybe voltage spike or large wire resistance).

I didn't respond until now because I didn't get the e-mail notice on my Yahoo! account. I was going back through the JT pages looking for something else.

Re-edit later:
I was referring above to Pg. 729, Reply #7288
Also, have a look at Reply 7218, on Pg. 722

This thread forum is so long now, that making reference to some page requires my writing it down. The page count is approaching 800.

@Moderators
Can the number of thread views extent to 7 digits? Over 1,000,000 views? I hadn't seen any other thread that long.

--Lee

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on June 24, 2009, 09:38:05 AM

Quote from: electricme on June 24, 2009, 05:17:07 AM
@ALL
OOhhhhh I just had my buttons pressed, I an thousands of Australians are being picked on, their pullin our chains hard this time, talk about squeezin/wringing the last ounce of blood outa us.

Just heard on the tellie news here, all airconditioners except the most efficient types are to be banned, :o they must have 5 stars. From September next year it comes into force. >:( we are not alowed to even turn ours on, whackos, the dumps are gonna be full with all these old aircond fulla old freon gas. ohhhhhh.

GRRRRR, so how does the Invalid Pensioner afford to replace theirs? (I got 3 of em and 1 on the front verrandah just sitting there) no one is alowed to turn them on, even if they have one. :o :o

(I bet Hans VL will have something to say about this) ;)

STUPID GOVERNMENT hogwash.

Thats it, I'm all fired up now, I'm going to make a GIANT BEDINI to power my ineficient airconditioner, and my inefficient washingmachine, and my inefficient Lightning, my power hungry vaccuum cleaner, my power hogging hotwater system, and make enough power to charge the car, and cut the grass in summer time. >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(

Sorry everyone, if I seem a little upset, seems all gov people in AUSTRALIA have been born with half a brain, ;D and about as useful as tits on a bull, ;D and have a loose screw in the top paddock. ;D
Talk about drawing the short straw, fair suck of the sav,

awww time to do serious www search on J B motor, and buy a heep of the most powerful magnets I can find. :D

I'm GONNA stick my thumb to my nose and wriggle my fingers, an stick my toungue out and blow a rasburry at stupid officialdom, :-* ;D
Good official officialdom need not feel offended (there a dying ;)breed).

hooroo all
jim

PS if the post is tooooo agro, I'll remove it or Pirate can.
Just let me know. TA

I hope you Don't remove the post cause i feel the same about our liitle MONSTER GOVERNMENT . 14% of nothingness but Greed and Satanism Control F reeks !!!!!! They Won't have a problem replacing theirs cause they live in mansions . . What the Heck ? Its time you replace the motors in the old airconditioners with either sterling engines ,hho powered chain saw motors and Bedin repulsion motors powered by the sun . they have a NSNS configuration and are made for tork on there rotors . the SG bedini rotor is free spin and not good for turning something NNNN .but the NSNS is . I'm doing the same . i have a heavy exercise bike flywheel ready to mount ceramic magnets on it .I can give it one spin without anything and the flywheel effect spins for 10 minuets with out any magnets or electronics and will rip your fingers off on the sprocket on on it you try and stop it .

Sorry a nother off topic but its related in that its a quest for free energy . anyone played with thermoelectric colling modules yet with a Jt . still more to do and learn . never ends until we get something we can use . I promise .
BTW i am an affilate for applied Magnets now at my site . they are used By NASA and a bunch of well know high profile companies .
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 24, 2009, 10:09:57 AM

@ Gadget,
Well done kind sir, I'm glad to see you are getting stuck into selling the good magnets, and thanks for letting us know. :D

Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 24, 2009, 10:36:31 AM

SHEESH GADGET I WAS AT MY FRIENDS A FEW DAYS AGO AND IF WE DID NOT HAVE ALMOST THE EXACT SAME DESIGN ...

LOL

THE BIKE WHEEL WEIGHS BOUT 20 LBS .... WITH THE SPOCKET MOUNTED .... I HAVE BOUT 50 MICROWAVE MAGNATRON MAGNETS ... I WAS GONNA BUILD SOMETHING LIKE THIS FOR THE 12 BATTERY TUBE CHARGER UNIT AS A CONSTANT POWER SUPPLY ... THEN JUST FLIP THE CHARGER FROM BANK TO BANK

:)

PLUS I GUESS HE HAS A BUNCH OF FORK LIFT BATTERIES COMEING ... SOUNDS LIKE THERE IS 1 DEAD CELL PER BATTERY ... SO I WILL PUT THE RECONDITIONER ON THEM ... AND BRING THEM BACK AROUND ... AT 60 BUCKS EACH BATTERY .. I CANT SEE HOW HE COULD LOOSE ..

IMAGINE I GOT 12 FORK LIFT BATTERIES ... ;D ;D ;D ;D

I GOT ME A WHOLE FARM TO POWER UP ;)

LOL

IS

BUT IM A DO IT FOR THEM FOR FREE WELL WE ALL NEED A PLACE TO HANG OUR STAFFS :D

EVEN THE MAN IN THE MOON DISSIPEARS...... SOME WHERE IN THE STRATUS SPHERE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQ4rf6grfUA :o

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 24, 2009, 12:19:13 PM

Quote from: electricme on June 24, 2009, 05:17:07 AM
@ Jeanna,
Carnt find it, musta left it in the bread thingie, :D seriously though, I have lit a fluro tube with my Hazens1 JT, made it gloooo, but I don't hold the record for 5 hours, the battery is on charge right now, so I will hang a fluro on it tomorrow sometime.

jim

@ALL
OOhhhhh I just had my buttons pressed, I an thousands of Australians are being picked on, their pullin our chains hard this time, talk about squeezin/wringing the last ounce of blood outa us.

Just heard on the tellie news here, all airconditioners except the most efficient types are to be banned, :o they must have 5 stars. From September next year it comes into force. >:( we are not alowed to even turn ours on, whackos, the dumps are gonna be full with all these old aircond fulla old freon gas. ohhhhhh.

GRRRRR, so how does the Invalid Pensioner afford to replace theirs? (I got 3 of em and 1 on the front verrandah just sitting there) no one is alowed to turn them on, even if they have one. :o :o

(I bet Hans VL will have something to say about this) ;)

STUPID GOVERNMENT hogwash.

Thats it, I'm all fired up now, I'm going to make a GIANT BEDINI to power my ineficient airconditioner, and my inefficient washingmachine, and my inefficient Lightning, my power hungry vaccuum cleaner, my power hogging hotwater system, and make enough power to charge the car, and cut the grass in summer time. >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(

Sorry everyone, if I seem a little upset, seems all gov people in AUSTRALIA have been born with half a brain, ;D and about as useful as tits on a bull, ;D and have a loose screw in the top paddock. ;D
Talk about drawing the short straw, fair suck of the sav,

awww time to do serious www search on J B motor, and buy a heep of the most powerful magnets I can find. :D

I'm GONNA stick my thumb to my nose and wriggle my fingers, an stick my toungue out and blow a rasburry at stupid officialdom, :-* ;D
Good official officialdom need not feel offended (there a dying ;)breed).

hooroo all
jim

PS if the post is tooooo agro, I'll remove it or Pirate can.
Just let me know. TA

Jim

I think making a big Bedini is a great idea .
If your small one works there is no reason a bigger one won't .
Unfortunantly even if it is powerful enough .......it won't completely solve the air conditioner problem
The way the llaws are writen I am pretty sure that there is no exceptions for other power sources .......
It seems to me that if there is a fine for using an ollder airconditioner you will be at rist of being fined even if the air conditioner is powered 100% by free energy

What would it cost to replace it ?

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 24, 2009, 12:54:20 PM

It looks like MOTs are hard on transistors

I have blown 2 3055s in 2 days .

The first one to go took me a while to figure it out .

Radio Shack had a couple 5.1 V zeners I hope that they are big enough .....only 49mA
Anyone know if they can be used in parrallel ?

Who was it that was wondering about lighting 8ft floros ?
I got one
:)
Once I get running again I will give it a try

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 24, 2009, 02:42:49 PM

Quote from: electricme on June 24, 2009, 05:17:07 AM
@ Jeanna,
Carnt find it, musta left it in the bread thingie, :D seriously though, I have lit a fluro tube with my Hazens1 JT, made it gloooo, but I don't hold the record for 5 hours, the battery is on charge right now, so I will hang a fluro on it tomorrow sometime.
jim

I wonder what makes the difference.

The one last night went for one full hour LESS maybe more, maybe only 4 hours instead of 5 1/4 hours!

I had 'fixed' the caps. Now, I am wondering about the blundering. Perhaps another fortuitous blunder.
If 25uF is better than 100uF, or if maybe the battery was not as fully charged. It was fully charged, and I cannot thnk it would make the difference of 23%.

So, I will use 10uF cap across the fully charged battery today and see. (I wish those variacs were not so very expensive... or maybe someone can help me use one from a radio. I have a take apart radio with a variac as tuner.)

Thanks jim

making headroads galore,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on June 24, 2009, 03:51:59 PM

@all

The transformer I was experimenting with, I could not get more than 9v from it.

I took it off and put in its place a ferrite bar with 3 feet of #26 wire folded in half and connected as a joule thief to the self charger which now has 1n4001 diodes with the same 104k ceramics.

Then I connected my old AAA camera battery that is damaged, it cannot hold the charge. I measured it and it had 0.46v. I connected it to the circuit and went to the grocery. When I left the led was off. When I came back it was on and the battery has 1.15v.

I connected a 47000uf 35v cap I had from a bedini project I did. The cap gets charged to 1.15v at the same time the led is lit and the battery is charged, but suddenly it discharges and gets to 0.0v and start slowly to fill up.

I tried to use it when it gets to 1.15-1.16v to see if the circuit could run with the cap only. The cap keeps the circuit lit for a few seconds and then it turns off.

I connect the same battery again and everything returns as it was and the cap start filling again.

Any ideas on how to get the circuit that now is charging to work with the cap only?

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 24, 2009, 04:24:27 PM

@ Jim:

You have my sympathies mate. Whenever our Govt. here does something like that, they make an exemption for all Govt. buildings and employees. Our Govt. is out of control on a mad power grab so we are not too far behind you guys down there. I agree with those here that say screw them and power it with a combination of free energy devices. Wind, solar, EB, JT's, flywheels, etc.

@ Gary:

I was the one that asked about an 8 foot tube. I'll bet the Fuji could light it.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 24, 2009, 07:50:31 PM

@ jeanna

I made a quick test of the 3" toroid and it seems to be much the same as my 2" toroid. The output from the pickup coil is 137 volts but reversing the diode direction gives less than 2 volts. So output current is much greater in one direction than the other. I had no problem getting it to work. If you have another toroid I suggest you duplicate my coil and see what you get. It is a very simple coil to make. Just make all of the turns for each coil go around toroid in same direction. As you can see, there is nothing fancy about the winding job.

NOTE: All coils do not have to have turns going the same way, but all turns in each of the coils must go the same way. I hope that makes sense. Correct leads to connect is determined by trial and error.

Pickup coil output lights a neon bulb very brightly when it is put in place of the voltmeter.

PS - You do not need the 200 uF battery capacitor. It is in diagram becaues I had it there when I did the test. Also the output 60 pF capacitor can be most any value. The larger it is the higher the voltage will be.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 24, 2009, 08:31:49 PM

Cool, xee. This means you can make a whalloper.

OK
I will get as close as I can. I have a 100pF cap which ought to be close enough to the 68pF. Then...
I need to get it straight how to put the cap into the battery to add Farads. I make them parallel, is that correct?
I will see.

I could not get the 3055 to start unless I had many more turns than 2. I will see what it takes, this time.

BTW, I think you just answered why you always see pulsed dc and not ac from your secondary, didn't you?

I will try and see. It will be quick.

thank you.
===
Hi all,

Well, today the thrift store had some light goodies.
I got 2 globes. One to diffuse the light of 4 leds. and a big one for 25- 50 leds (35cents) .

The big one should be so bright that it will take the place of an overhead room light. It is thick enough that the lights don't look like just spots yet clear enough for plenty of light to come out. But I will put it within reach so I can engage the switch. - maybe a shelf.
Also 2 cans that are perfect faraday containers for emergency joule thief lights. (Ya gotta getem when they havem because they won't be there tomorrow.)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 24, 2009, 08:59:41 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 24, 2009, 08:31:49 PM
I need to get it straight how to put the cap into the battery to add Farads. I make them parallel, is that correct?

You do not need a battery capacitor. I suggest you do not use one just to keep things simple. But, yes you should put them in parallel to get twice the capacitance of a single capacitor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on June 24, 2009, 09:37:03 PM

@all

Everybody is having fun here with his or her project. I am having fun with mine.
It has been lighting an led and recharging the battery for 9 hours now.

I tried and am running now without stopping the circuit to make the change, a Super brigth led mini tap light.
The light is dim and the battery dropped to 1.08v but is still charging while lighting this led trio.

I hope it hold the whole night and I will try to charge another damaged battery and see if this one I am using, holds the charge and how long.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 24, 2009, 10:45:23 PM

Quote from: xee2 on June 24, 2009, 08:59:41 PM
You do not need a battery capacitor. I suggest you do not use one just to keep things simple. But, yes you should put them in parallel to get twice the capacitance of a single capacitor.

Thanks,
===
OK I got it.
But it is sure ugly.
I got it to turn on with exactly the numbers of turns and all that you did. I wonder what I was doing last week. I will examine that fluoro lighting biggo to see, but later.

First here is what I am getting measuring across the secondary wires on the scope.
base resistor 1k ohm (=good starting place)
38v on secondary just the secondary wires
w/doide 16.7v or
3.8v depending on direction
yuck.

base resistor 200 ohm
spikes skinny and infrequent. There is no resolution that changes that. To me that means they are skinny spikes period.
159v, 77v,17v,5v, 151v, 25v, 38v, 25v, 20v, 161v, 167v.

Just to see what would happen, I removed the diode
There were many more spikes like 5 to 6 times as many visible on the screen. All just as skinny.
The very low numbers were (therefore) not presented by the scope.

no diode across secondary
234v, 77v, 161v.

then I also removed the 100pF cap and it got still more spikes (but not much more) the lowest numbers dropped off again.

234v, 231v, 160v, 115v, 154v, 218v, 160v.

really ugly.

EDIT
I see I put the diode across the secondary and not in series with one of the wires. I will redo this.

More edit,

It was much worse.
It has the same seldom and spiky look and one way the volts were
1.2v, sometimes 9v, 12v
the other way thevolts were
12v, 19v

I expect this to get better looking at the expense of heights of spikes as I make more turns. I will make a mk1 style pickup out of these 20, and see what that does.
I have been wanting to do this for a week now.

thanks,

@jesus,
good going!
Are you planning to not sleep tonight? :D

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 24, 2009, 10:57:22 PM

@Resonanceman,

Quote from: resonanceman on June 24, 2009, 12:19:13 PM
Jim

I think making a big Bedini is a great idea .
If your small one works there is no reason a bigger one won't .
Unfortunantly even if it is powerful enough .......it won't completely solve the air conditioner problem
The way the llaws are writen I am pretty sure that there is no exceptions for other power sources .......
It seems to me that if there is a fine for using an ollder airconditioner you will be at rist of being fined even if the air conditioner is powered 100% by free energy

What would it cost to replace it ?

gary

Hello Gary,

Thanks for the good advice, but I need to know and read up on Bedini stuff, its urgent.
I got enough steel outside to make a big frame for a Bernidi, just got to get a generator for 240v AC and work out RPMs between B and G.

Yearrr, people in gov offices just wast their time dreaming up ways to make life harder for us all, and they still havent figured out how to patch potholes in the roads, lol.

Mabe I should work out how much it costs to replace them and send them the bill.

Anyway, there is nothing in law so far, to say I carnt use my aircons if I make my own power here, as the gov wants to bring it in to save the power station energy output. (its all carbon tax rubbish)

BUT, if I get a few Pelton bits, (those things in 12v DC fridges, that get hot one side and cold the other side), well, 20 of them = 240volts, if I rectify this I can drive a solid state aircon and can make it REVERSE cycle tooooo, so, lol an answer comes forth.
I think I can make it work better by shuvvin hi freq pulses at it.
Then use a tube fan to cool Hot and Cold sides on big heatsinks.

How do govs make money? east, scrap a tried and proven system, (cellphones, TV frequencies allocation, Analog to CDMA, then to Digital, etc), then everyone overnight has to fork out all over again for new stuff to replace the stuff that was still working.

Then when they run out of ideas, they will put the origional back after several years, because everyone was good and toed the line and threw out the orig stuff, so it will go around and around.

@ Jeanna,
I discovered my 2 diodes on the Hazens1 JT had fried, so after I finish my new work desk, I will get stuck into it, and replace them with 1N4007 or 1N5408 (3amp device at 1000Kv).

Gonna keep my eyes open for a big aluminium disk or perspex, shafting and pillow block bearings.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 24, 2009, 11:03:01 PM

@Resonanceman,

Quote from: resonanceman on June 24, 2009, 12:54:20 PM
It looks like MOTs are hard on transistors

I have blown 2 3055s in 2 days .

The first one to go took me a while to figure it out .

Radio Shack had a couple 5.1 V zeners I hope that they are big enough .....only 49mA
Anyone know if they can be used in parrallel ?

Who was it that was wondering about lighting 8ft floros ?
I got one
:)
Once I get running again I will give it a try

gary

Gary,
Try looking for a transistor that goes in a TV which controls the HV flyback voltage.
They are designed for this stuff.
You can usually find them screwed to the vertical heatsink close the the HV coil.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 24, 2009, 11:05:29 PM

@ jeanna

Without the 200 uF battery capacitor and using 1000 pF instead of 60 pF after diode increases output voltage to 239 volts. Battery capacitor will add about 10 volts to output.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 24, 2009, 11:10:10 PM

Quote from: electricme on June 24, 2009, 10:57:22 PM

@ Jeanna,
I discovered my 2 diodes on the Hazens1 JT had fried, so after I finish my new work desk, I will get stuck into it, and replace them with 1N4007 or 1N5408 (3amp device at 1000Kv).

jim

My fluoro tube is lit without any diodes.

Just put the secondary leads on either side of the tube and it will light up.
(I guess you have seen I need to "hold its hand" a little -literally wrap my hand to warm the lamp first, and use the magnet on one of the leads to switch it on, but once on the magnet can come off, and she lights up.)

I do think the 25uF at the battery is helping it to stay on, but I am not really sure. I have not played with it after it is on because I am timing it.

So, just put it on with out the diodes and read... :D

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 24, 2009, 11:12:11 PM

@Jesus,

Quote from: nievesoliveras on June 24, 2009, 09:37:03 PM
@all

Everybody is having fun here with his or her project. I am having fun with mine.
It has been lighting an led and recharging the battery for 9 hours now.

I tried and am running now without stopping the circuit to make the change, a Super brigth led mini tap light.
The light is dim and the battery dropped to 1.08v but is still charging while lighting this led trio.

I hope it hold the whole night and I will try to charge another damaged battery and see if this one I am using, holds the charge and how long.

Jesus

That is really good Jesus, well done.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 24, 2009, 11:17:20 PM

Quote from: xee2 on June 24, 2009, 11:05:29 PM
@ jeanna

Without the 200 uF battery capacitor and using 1000 pF instead of 60 pF after diode increases output voltage to 239 volts. Battery capacitor will add about 10 volts to output.

xee,
Do you have any idea why mine had more frequent and higher spikes with the diode and the cap both removed?

I think you must have those elements because of how you test for voltage, so I guess you can't just try it to find out. Is that true? Too bad if it is.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 24, 2009, 11:23:36 PM

@Jeanna,

Quote from: jeanna on June 24, 2009, 10:45:23 PM
spikes skinny and infrequent. There is no resolution that changes that. To me that means they are skinny spikes period.
159v, 77v,17v,5v, 151v, 25v, 38v, 25v, 20v, 161v, 167v.

no diode across secondary
234v, 77v, 161v.

then I also removed the 100pF cap and it got still more spikes (but not much more) the lowest numbers dropped off again.

234v, 231v, 160v, 115v, 154v, 218v, 160v.

really ugly.
jeanna

What you are seeing is the circuit is "hunting" or "cycling".

I begins to build up then all of a sudden it carnt keep the pressure up so it collapses and then it sees, headroom, and so it tries again and again and again.

Try adding another 1.5 batt in parallel with the original bat and see if it is current related, if it stops hunting then its current related.
If that is the case, look for something taking more current from the circuit.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 24, 2009, 11:42:57 PM

Jim, maybe this is true, but without a scope from MK1 or xee, or anybody else for that matter, it is impossible to know if this is normal or strange.
I see it all the time when the scope is across the secondary. If I collect it in a cap, it is the top value that the scope sees.

Here is my response diagram to xee, just for clarity since all the parts are the same but the way I did it is shown.

hmm, I should have kept that font bigger, sorry.

jeanna

edit here is the original design as copied by me. also

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 25, 2009, 12:02:40 AM

@Jeanna,
Its clear as mud ;D

Quote from: jeanna on June 24, 2009, 11:42:57 PM
Jim, maybe this is true, but without a scope from MK1 or xee, or anybody else for that matter, it is impossible to know if this is normal or strange.
I see it all the time when the scope is across the secondary. If I collect it in a cap, it is the top value that the scope sees.

Here is my response diagram to xee, just for clarity since all the parts are the same but the way I did it is shown.

hmm, I should have kept that font bigger, sorry.

jeanna

Take a loko at the way the HV diode is connected.
The diode function as you know is to rectify ac, so allowing pulses of DC to get through.
By putting the diode "accros" the output, at every half cycle the half pulse is shorted out, allowing the oppersate half pulse to pass by to the rest of the output.

As an experiment, put a 5K pot with a LED in line with the HV Diode, then turn the pot as the JT is running, you will see the LED flashing (if low pulse freq) but you scope should show it.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 25, 2009, 12:33:36 AM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on June 24, 2009, 11:42:57 PM
hmm, I should have kept that font bigger, sorry.

hmmm, did you try all combinations of pickup leads and diode direction? I think you must not have the best combination.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 25, 2009, 12:36:04 AM

Jim,
I just added in the original style of the circuit that xee posted as copied by me.

I see a great improvement in the thing without any diode or cap in either place. (the mistaken place or the correct place)

If I were to run this through a full bridge and collect it in a cap I'd get the 235v that xee gets. I can see it right there in the scope. Just not very often.
The number of big gaps in the wave predominates, and so I doubt it is worth much. I could be wrong, but it looks better when there are spikes the same height and more of them which is what I see without either diode or cap.

But xee cannot do this without the diode and cap because it is how he makes measurements. Tooo bad. (but it is also how I can help. I can describe to him what he cannot see.)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 25, 2009, 12:42:36 AM

Quote from: xee2 on June 25, 2009, 12:33:36 AM
@ jeanna

hmmm, did you try all combinations of pickup leads and diode direction? I think you must not have the best combination.

well,
there are 2 pick up leads so that is 2 directions
The diode can go forward or backward
If I reverse them the spikes go up instead of down.
I tried 2 ways for the diode. I did not switch the probe on the pickup leads, because I am pretty sure the spikes would go in the opposite direction in the same amount.

I did get the same value that you did when I used the leads by themselves.

jeanna
OK
I will reverse the probes...

edit
I did

In one direction of the diode the probes can hook up 2 ways
1 way is 4v-7v
other way is 12v
In the other way of the diode the probes can be connected in 2 ways
1 way is 12v
other way is
4v-7v
One of these shows the spikes going up the other down.
done.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 25, 2009, 12:42:53 AM

@ jeanna

Disreguard my last post. I need to catch up on what you have done.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 25, 2009, 12:52:21 AM

Ahh,
OK I see
thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 25, 2009, 01:24:05 AM

@ jeanna

Do you have another diode. I do not understand how you could only be getting a few volts while I am getting over a hundred. You see the voltage spikes on the scope, so the voltage seems to be coming out of the pickup coil. A bad diode is my first guess at the problem. However, a bad capacitor could also do this. So if changing the diode does not work, try changing the capacitor. But, if I am correctly reading what you have done, you have already changed the capacitor so that is why I suspect the diode.

Regarding spikes on scope, the frequency of the JT is not very stable. This causes the scope to not repeat the positions of the pulses each cycle and so you see the pulses moving around. At least that is my guess as to what is happening. Without a scope it is hard for me to check. And you are correct, I need the diode and capacitor to measure the peak voltage because I do not have a scope.

Just to be sure, you are measuring the voltage across the capacitor using the DC setting on your DMMM I hope.

A test you could do to check the voltage would be to put a neon bulb across the output of the pickup coil (without the diode and cap and voltmeter). If the neon lights you are getting over 100 volts out.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 25, 2009, 01:45:56 AM

Yes xee,
I do have another diode but this was a brand new one.
They don't like going into the breadboard. the legs are a bit too fat and the metal is very soft, so I find it troublesome to deal with them and switching them around, so if it is not necessary, I will just skip it. I think your question has been answered. If it has not been, and you need me to try another diode, I will.
I like using the scope. It is comforting to be able to see the difference the various changes make.

I started out with 1k ohm resistor at the base, and I could just watch it change as I turned the pot down. this really helps. I like it. I am a newbie and not used to the back door approaches you and others without a scope are accustomed to doing.

so, as I say, I will help with a new diode if this is for you, but it is not for me.
What I would like to do is make a 20 turn mk1 and see what that does. I have never watched a small mk pickup as it changes . I have only seen it when it fills the toroid. I think there may be good reason to have a partial secondary on the big toroid, and I am loking forward to doing that soon.

Thanks for starting this up today. I would not have been expecting to have the toroid be able to start up this 3055, and it is gratifying to have this part of it working as it should.

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 25, 2009, 01:54:40 AM

@ jeanna

I agree. If it is a new diode that is not the problem. I added a note about trying a neon to my last post. You might try that. I would like to find out what is happening so that we can all share our measurements.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 25, 2009, 02:43:22 AM

@ jeanna

This is my results with neon.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 25, 2009, 02:47:16 AM

XEE2:

Wow, that neon is pretty bight there. Nice circuit.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on June 25, 2009, 06:57:08 AM

this i dont understand, there is the "old rule" electronics and the "new rule" electronics, the old rule is that electricity flows from + to -, the new rule is just the opposite. the reason for this is that atoms have electrons that travel down a wire and a electron has a - charge. well thats fine but how does a cap with a + charge do any work then? does it obsorb a - charge from the vacume? and why does it draw power from a battery to put that + charge on the cap when the + charge of a cap symbolizes the absence of charge? the more i hear EE's talk about electronics the more i think the industry has no F*'n clue! if someone has a explenation for this and wants to try to educate me please feel free.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 25, 2009, 09:26:28 AM

@ Artic_Knight

A positive charge in a capacitor is just a lack of electrons. Electrons flowing in a wire is similar to air flowing through tubes. A large negative charge is like a high air pressure (excess of electrons = excess of air). A high positive charge is like a vacuum (shortage of electrons = shortage of air). The electrons want to flow from where there is a high negative charge (excess of electrons) to where there is a high positive charge (shortage of electrons). Just like air wants to flow from where there is a high air pressure (excess of air) to where there is a vacuum (shortage of air).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 25, 2009, 10:26:24 AM

@xee2

Nice work!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on June 25, 2009, 10:38:59 AM

Hello everybody!

Thank you @jeanna
Thank you @electricme

The led trio I put yesterday on the circuit seems to do something wrong with it.
Today I changed the battery for another discharged one with 0.44v and the circuit sucked all the energy from the battery leaving inside of it 0.0v.

After an hour it rose to 0.3v after some more time it rose to 0.5v, at this moment is 0.8v.
At this rate of charging it will take a week to charge.

The trio led was discharging the battery and I took it off after aprox 2 hours. yesterday.

I need to replicate one of the good toroids on this threads, that can light the trio without effort from one AA battery.

If I get it to work properly I will solder it to a pc board and make it permanent. The connections get loose sometimes and I need to move them in order that the circuit keep going.

I need to check the diodes one by one to see if anyone is fried or broken as the other diodes I used before that got broken in two halves.

Best wishes to all!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on June 25, 2009, 02:15:13 PM

@all

Bad news.
The ferrite bar coil got overheated and quit to work anymore.
One interweaved wire side got grayed somehow.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 25, 2009, 02:43:37 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on June 25, 2009, 02:15:13 PM
@all

Bad news.
The ferrite bar coil got overheated and quit to work anymore.
One interweaved wire side got grayed somehow.

Jesus

Grayed, that sounds like the interior of the wire insulation has been comprimised from heat or a short. Sorry to hear!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 25, 2009, 02:47:40 PM

Quote from: xee2 on June 25, 2009, 01:54:40 AM
@ jeanna

... I would like to find out what is happening so that we can all share our measurements.
===
Just to be sure, you are measuring the voltage across the capacitor using the DC setting on your DMMM I hope.

A test you could do to check the voltage would be to put a neon bulb across the output of the pickup coil (without the diode and cap and voltmeter). If the neon lights you are getting over 100 volts out

Well, I didn't see that post til I had finished this test.

I did check the hi voltage on the DMM before I went to sleep, and it read 25volts where the scope, which is what I had been using all along and reporting, said all those much higher numbers.
My dmm is the kind you buy in a hardware store and is meant for electricians in home setting. I suspect the sample rate.

This morning I rewound the secondary in 2 different configurations.
I can light a neon just fine. (Not as bright as with a MK1 fully wound around a smaller toroid, however.)

Actually, here is what I have to report.

I made a hazens kind where I wrapped the 2^o 10 times one way, then returned 10 more for a total of 20 turns and carefully interspersed the winds.

The results seemed to go down a little bit to
205v, 197v, 221v, 2.77KHz (maybe)
All the spikes were going up and most of the time nothing registered on the screen. I moved the x axis down to nearly the bottom and many spikes began to show. They are still skinny tall infrequent spikes. I do not believe the 2.77KHz, but that is the freq between two that I could actually see.
At one resolution, I actually saw a progression of spikes going up then down like the up side of a sine wave made of spikes. That was followed by a great long gap without spikes at all.

Last, I remade the 20 turns into a mk1 style 2^o.

At first the volts were down about the same amount as the hazens style, but there were more of them. Still very hard to see or stop the scope and look while on hold, though.

at 200r:
197v, 205v, 198v, 218v, 17v, 54v,

then I began to tune the resistor. I turned it down. I didn't check this one but it suddenly got very loud and changed pitch.
volts I saw were,
126v, 494v, 353v, 492v, 19v, 122v,

I wondered how much more so...

at 33.8r I got the top reading of 648v !!
Needless to say, I am being very careful with my scope.
The spikes continue to be very thin although one or 2 now have a little more thickness at the bottom. They still fly by.

648v, 224v, 302v, 481v, 591v, 623v.

The spikes seem to be pulsing at 555Hz verrry sloooow by our standards.

So best reading and lighting a neon

33.8ohm, 648v, 555Hz
MK1 style 20 turns.

I am only sorry I didn't tune the Hazens one while I had it wound. I am also sorry I never checked the resistance on that interim reading because that is where it started to take off.

Lots of info.

xee (and stprue too),
This is something I could ask you to do too.

Please make your secondary in these 2 different winding styles , but please tune the Hazens style one because I forgot. Of course you should also tune the MK1 style so we can compare.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 25, 2009, 02:48:49 PM

@ Jeanna sorry I have not replied to my personal messages, when I try to this old work computer freezes up, but thank you for the advise and clarity.

I have made half of an MK1 x2 today and will be testing it! I will post soem results and pic's regardless of whether it works or not!!!

3T/3T and 20T-up by 20T-down one one side only...

@Mk

Now that I think of it......... Mk will half an x2 set-up rotate/work?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 25, 2009, 02:54:52 PM

@Jeanna

is that great high voltage peak to peak or RMS?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 25, 2009, 02:55:40 PM

@stprue

Do you mean only one half of the primary (jt), If this is the case you will need more modification to make it work , but if you are taking about the pickup coil then no problem .

Mark

Edit thanks Jeanna , you did good with the pot there , i am proud of you.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 25, 2009, 03:01:36 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 25, 2009, 02:55:40 PM
@stprue

Do you mean only one half of the primary (jt), If this is the case you will need more modification to make it work , but if you are taking about the pickup coil then no problem .

Mark

Edit thanks Jeanna , you did good with the pot there , i am proud of you.

I'm pretty sure that I'm talking aobut the pickup coil! I will try to post some pic's later tonight.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on June 25, 2009, 03:04:56 PM

Quote from: stprue on June 25, 2009, 02:43:37 PM
Grayed, that sounds like the interior of the wire insulation has been comprimised from heat or a short. Sorry to hear!

Thank you @stprue !

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 25, 2009, 03:13:57 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on June 25, 2009, 06:57:08 AM
this i dont understand, there is the "old rule" electronics and the "new rule" electronics, the old rule is that electricity flows from + to -, the new rule is just the opposite....

Hi Artic Knight,
It really is the electronics rule and the physics rule.

Physicists do not deal with transistors, and EE's don't deal with electrons.

The electronics texts etc all explain how electrons which are negative move toward the +. Then zam! without warning, as soon as they get into anything electronic like a transistor or a diode, the story switches to what 'they' call conventional current which was defined by Ben Franklin, and no one has the guts to change it.

I spent hours explaining how a transistor works to myself in a way that works with physics theory.

xee is flexible of mind and can use both ways of thinking. I am grateful for this. His explanation is fine with me, even though the electrons don't really move anywhere either. And, that is another story.

Physicists don't like to change their ways of thinking either.

OK, I have 3 favorites for you.
the first 2 are Bill Beaty and the 3rd is Barry's coilgun where he refers to Beaty.

BTW B. Beaty designed the excellent lightning display at the Boston Science Museum with the 100,000 volts lightning and the person in the faraday cage narrating what is going on to the audience.

http://amasci.com/emotor/cap1.html (http://amasci.com/emotor/cap1.html)

http://amasci.com/caps/capnotes.html (http://amasci.com/caps/capnotes.html)

and

http://www.coilgun.info/theorycapacitors/capacitorcharging.htm
(http://www.coilgun.info/theorycapacitors/capacitorcharging.htm)

Enjoy,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 25, 2009, 03:17:16 PM

@jesus

Where you see failure i see progress , blowing a inductor from a dead battery , humm

Also spiritually , you didn't get the lion out this time , you are not in it for your pride but all humanity , lets the divine inspiration speak , lets it speak louder ...

Don't worry even if you cry wolf to many times , people will still watch but will be more prudent in there reply .

Maybe the battery is wrong for this look into nickel iron battery.

mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 25, 2009, 03:21:53 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 25, 2009, 03:13:57 PM
Hi Artic Knight,
It really is the electronics rule and the physics rule.

Physicists do not deal with transistors, and EE's don't deal with electrons.

The electronics texts etc all explain how electrons which are negative move toward the +. Then zam! without warning, as soon as they get into anything electronic like a transistor or a diode, the story switches to what 'they' call conventional current which was defined by Ben Franklin, and no one has the guts to change it.

jeanna

This is true, no one wants to change it because that is how we have been learning about the flow of electrons for so long that if we change it now, two ;D(hehe) many people will be confused!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 25, 2009, 03:25:58 PM

Quote from: stprue on June 25, 2009, 02:54:52 PM
@Jeanna

is that great high voltage peak to peak or RMS?

I have been told by the guys that know that the RMS does not apply here, so that is Peak to Peak. It is how my scope is set. (every once in a while I push the wrong button and I panic because the volts drop through the floor.)

We are working with a different principle.
None of us really knows what will be the end result. - Of course you know that... you are an experimenter too.

For instance,
I keep reporting on the "quality" of the wave, but I have no idea if it actually matters.

It is very possible that as long as there are enough spikes (high enough frequency) the skinnyness of them won't matter. I am noting them just in case it does.

So, peak to peak across the secondary wires without a diode or cap unless otherwise noted.

edit add:

Quote3T/3T and 20T-up by 20T-down one one side only...

That amounts to the Hazens style, so it will be a good one to remember to tune and get it as perfect as possible before going to the nexr stage. cool.
jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 25, 2009, 03:46:03 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 25, 2009, 03:25:58 PM
I have been told by the guys that know that the RMS does not apply here, so that is Peak to Peak. It is how my scope is set. (every once in a while I push the wrong button and I panic because the volts drop through the floor.)

We are working with a different principle.
None of us really knows what will be the end result. - Of course you know that... you are an experimenter too.

For instance,
I keep reporting on the "quality" of the wave, but I have no idea if it actually matters.

It is very possible that as long as there are enough spikes (high enough frequency) the skinnyness of them won't matter. I am noting them just in case it does.

So, peak to peak across the secondary wires without a diode or cap unless otherwise noted.

edit add:That amounts to the Hazens style, so it will be a good one to remember to tune and get it as perfect as possible before going to the nexr stage. cool.
jeanna

Yes I have been think about frequency/voltage combinations for some time, and have also been interested in 2 or more frequency in a circuit.

As you stated above

[/quote]It is very possible that as long as there are enough spikes (high enough frequency) the skinnyness of them won't matter. I am noting them just in case it does.

I feel there is something to this and to understand it I think about this expmple like mass and exceleration. You know where I'm going with this one.

In regards to frequency or multiple frequency's my insprition is from the ocean. I remember seeing a documentary on rough waves and there formation. You may be surprised or not that these waves occure all the time and are very frequent. There formation relies on very simple principals and they basically occure by aborbding the waves/energy around them when the speeds/frequency's are right....What happens a 10' wave suddenly becomes a 50' wave. Man I think I was just rambling...Sorry

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 25, 2009, 03:49:42 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 25, 2009, 03:25:58 PM

edit add:That amounts to the Hazens style, so it will be a good one to remember to tune and get it as perfect as possible before going to the nexr stage. cool.
jeanna

Well honestly I don't expect it to work because all my other attempt at an MK style coil have failed. I will post pic's anyways!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 25, 2009, 04:17:46 PM

Quote from: stprue on June 25, 2009, 03:49:42 PM
Well honestly I don't expect it to work because all my other attempt at an MK style coil have failed. I will post pic's anyways!

Just remember, nothing happened for a while then when the resistance got down far enough, or to the right level for this setup, bam!
The base resistor has a lot to say about the frequency of the joule thief.

Quotewhen the speeds/frequency's are right....What happens a 10' wave suddenly becomes a 50' wave. Man I think I was just rambling...Sorry

no no, rambling is good. People can get ideas or inspiration from intelligent rambling, which is what I would call that bit about the waves. I agree and think it is important,.

May I add that the only time we really notice the waves from the ocean is when they interface with something stationary like an island or continent. the return waves, maybe or just because of the shape of the land under the ocean that gradually rises to the surface... hmm more rambling...

Oh, and when you bend over the boat and take a scoop of water in the funnel the waves stop and all you have is what you scooped up. ( a cap when added for collection.)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 25, 2009, 04:26:09 PM

Quote from: stprue on June 25, 2009, 03:49:42 PM
Well honestly I don't expect it to work because all my other attempt at an MK style coil have failed. I will post pic's anyways!

failed ?

lol

no ! there no failures only excerises to learn ;)

:)

this life is a gift .... so we all can experience learning ... ooo its just sooooo much fun .. beats school

well i guess it is video time ...

and fire up the !school!

if i cant sell the rings ... well o well ill sell all the knowalage i have gained ... ;D

open source of cource

anyone else want to display there thing e inventions in free engery device videos ?

you must explain in full detail of the device too :D

this is to get it out there im sure stephen will sell them on this site ... ;)

gadget? mk1 bill jeanna and all others are welcome to join if you like

mk1 btw the angry lion was awake a while ... but the nice one has become ballanced ...

only cuz the shock ya rocks.. ;D

and the understanding that comes from them sure is somthing ...

ist RAHAHAHAHAHHA ~A LAUGHING ROAR~ :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 25, 2009, 04:47:19 PM

@sprue

Ok please post picture of the coil , to see if there is not something missing first , then tell how did you test the pickup coil , on voltage meter it will not show unless you use a diode.This is why we use those here.Most don't have scope so they need to find other ways . I have made the mk from many type of toroid , they all worked some just did give the output with a 4/4 jt .

But before making a x2 , try the regular one one simple coil on each side , make the regular 4 turns and leave some for tuning .

I said that before know you toroid first .

Mark

I what you to make it work this time , don't give up because i wont ...

Edit also check the post on page 478 with drawing , for reference.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 25, 2009, 04:59:06 PM

@ jeanna

If you were able to light the neon with the pickup coil then you are definitely getting at least 100 volts out. Therefore I assume your DMM is not reading correctly as you have also concluded.

Can you use your scope in place of the DMM to measure the voltage across the capacitor? Does the scope have a multimeter built in? I need to use a capacitor to measure the voltage. And the voltage measured will depend on the value of the capacitance. So unless you are able to measure using a diode and a capacitor I do not think we will ever get the same readings. Without being able to get the same readings I do not see how we can compare results.

As far as I can tell the latest drawing by Mk1 was the same as a coil wound with half of the turns going clockwise and the other half going counterclockwise with the clockwise and counterclockwise turns alternating. I have not tried this. But I have made coils with half of the turns going clockwise and the other half going counterclockwise and the performance is the same as if all of the turns go clockwise. I have also made neat coils and sloppy coils. My experience is that a neatly wound coil does not work any better. As long as all of the turns go around the toroid in the same direction I do not think it matters if they are put on in a clockwise direction, a counterclockwise direction, or back and forth between clockwise and counterclockwise. But I am trying to understand what Mk1 is doing because he says he does see a difference so I will try this as soon as I am sure I understand what he is doing.

I need to leave now. I will check back tonight.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 25, 2009, 05:22:16 PM

you need the wires inter twined between clockwize and counterclockwize in the pic up coils ...

and a cadisous style cross in the center of the toroide ...

this is required you will grab north and south poles of both pulse coils and both colapses

the cross im sure does something too ..

there 2 dirrections of spin going on in the torride

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 25, 2009, 07:21:18 PM

Get ready!

Look at the pic's closely and I won't have to answer as many questions! Nothing great, it works but I'm sure it is wound wrong. The good news is I have lots of pic's of my mistake so other people won't make the same one ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 25, 2009, 07:23:56 PM

Here we go!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 25, 2009, 07:26:01 PM

And more of a different progress. Notice the different cap set up and I'm using a reg 1.5volt battery, but better performance regardless!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 25, 2009, 07:33:08 PM

Notice the negative side of the bridge has a cap going to the positive output and vise-versa..

Interesting for me anyway!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 25, 2009, 07:34:39 PM

@stprue

Nice looking pickup coil , but that is not it. Check the drawing included in this post.

But basically you go one way then go down putting the between the ones you put on on the way up. They only cross on the inside of the toroid , but don't think about that .

Also make a pickup coil on the other side of about 12 turns and check voltage on it .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 25, 2009, 07:40:16 PM

Quote from: stprue on June 25, 2009, 07:21:18 PM
Get ready!

Look at the pic's closely and I won't have to answer as many questions! Nothing great, it works but I'm sure it is wound wrong. The good news is I have lots of pic's of my mistake so other people won't make the same one ;D

So,
My first question is what is wrong?
What stage are you at?
It appears to be get the jtc to light a led in the BJT spot, and you did.
You have 4.5?ohm K or M or is that 4.5 ohm?
The green looks fine even if you cannot wrap your hands around making the straight line on the outside, I don't see any crosses on the inside, so there is only one cross per return wire so it is OK.
umm.
So what is the problem There is a rather large number on a meter in one of those shots. Is that volts? looks pretty good.

(I never did well in multiple choice. My imagination gets out of control with all the possibilities.)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 25, 2009, 07:41:59 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 25, 2009, 07:34:39 PM
@stprue

Nice looking pickup coil , but that is not it. Check the drawing included in this post.

But basically you go one way then go down putting the between the ones you put on on the way up. They only cross on the inside of the toroid , but don't think about that .

Also make a pickup coil on the other side of about 12 turns and check voltage on it .

Mark

So my first mistake is when I'm on the return, my crossovers are on the inside? Ok...so the outside is all looking like \\\\\\\\\\\\\ and the inside is looking like XXXXXXXX? Ok.. do you see on my pick-up I'm actually going over 2 wraps...the one I just went in between and the next wire I will next be going in between......Is that right because I don't think so? I will check out the page you told me to.

Thanks...Stew

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 25, 2009, 07:47:05 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 25, 2009, 07:40:16 PM
So,
My first question is what is wrong?
What stage are you at?
It appears to be get the jtc to light a led in the BJT spot, and you did.
You have 4.5?ohm K or M or is that 4.5 ohm?
The green looks fine even if you cannot wrap your hands around making the straight line on the outside, I don't see any crosses on the inside, so there is only one cross per return wire so it is OK.
umm.
So what is the problem There is a rather large number on a meter in one of those shots. Is that volts? looks pretty good.

(I never did well in multiple choice. My imagination gets out of control with all the possibilities.)

jeanna

It is 4.5 ohms and the large number is actually 3.um something volts ac so I'm getting 20+DC and 3.whatever ac. The two pic's of the led lighting are before the bridge and it will light both ways. I just responded to Mk about the wrapping...I though it was going over twice...look closely!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 25, 2009, 07:50:34 PM

@stprue

I made a new drawing for you . only one wire the color is to indicate the direction .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 25, 2009, 08:01:42 PM

I think the thing that is confusing me is the initial returning turn...in your drawing it is both greens. WHat is happening here because I will keep going over 2 wires each time to keep the front of the coil//////

Pic's

1-2 Basic set-up
3-4 return turns 1 and 2

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 25, 2009, 08:22:25 PM

One top side is flat one has crossovers and the middle has crossovers...outside all /////

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 25, 2009, 08:23:38 PM

I must be overcomplicating this ???

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 25, 2009, 08:39:01 PM

Quote from: stprue on June 25, 2009, 08:23:38 PM
I must be overcomplicating this ???

lol This is a understatement !

you still have 2 cross , they only cross on the inside not on the side , one the side and out side thy look parallel .

And they don't cross on the first row.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 25, 2009, 08:44:52 PM

Stprue,
when I do it, I just check when the wire comes out from underneath. I check where it went into the center and I skip one wire and go into the next space all the way until it goes into the center.
Then I pull it through, the look at where it went in and skip one wire then put my wire one slot next and go up again. then it goes into the center again and when it comes out I look at where it went into the center and skip the next wire and continue.
I said the same thing a few ways just now.

I think you are trying to see it. You can't. Your fingers and the shadows are in the way. All you can see is where it last was before it disappeared and where it comes out. When it comes out you must place it in between the next wires.

And besides:
You have made it exactly backwards. I don't even know if it matters. You have made it with one cross on the outside and straight on the inside. Just reverse it or don't worry about it.

It may not matter. If it is the only thing and you aren't getting results then try, but you lit 2 fluorotubes the other day! What are you wanting to do run the air conditioner? ;D ;D

maybe one of these descriptions will help.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 25, 2009, 08:46:49 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 25, 2009, 08:39:01 PM
lol This is a understatement !

you still have 2 cross , they only cross on the inside not on the side , one the side and out side thy look parallel .

And they don't cross on the first row.

Well Mk there must be something really special about your design even when you make it very wrong you can easily light 31 superbright led's 25,000mcd ;D ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 25, 2009, 08:51:01 PM

Part of your problem stprue is that when the cross is not hidden on the inside you can see it better.

All that you have going on at the top there is what normally happens on the inside, where you can't see it.
I only see one real cross, but it looks like 2 crosses because of how you are viewing it.
If you do not allow it to cross on the outside you will be forcing it to cross on the inside. then make sure the channel between wires is right, then don't stop until the next turn.

jeanna

edit add
wow look at those lights. very bright and proof!
waydago!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 25, 2009, 08:54:21 PM

@stprue

There i got a old picture, i hope this helps.

Mark

Nice led display ,it dose look bright !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 25, 2009, 08:57:30 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 25, 2009, 08:44:52 PM
Stprue,
when I do it, I just check when the wire comes out from underneath. I check where it went into the center and I skip one wire and go into the next space all the way until it goes into the center.
Then I pull it through, the look at where it went in and skip one wire then put my wire one slot next and go up again. then it goes into the center again and when it comes out I look at where it went into the center and skip the next wire and continue.
I said the same thing a few ways just now.

I think you are trying to see it. You can't. Your fingers and the shadows are in the way. All you can see is where it last was before it disappeared and where it comes out. When it comes out you must place it in between the next wires.

And besides:
You have made it exactly backwards. I don't even know if it matters. You have made it with one cross on the outside and straight on the inside. Just reverse it or don't worry about it.

It may not matter. If it is the only thing and you aren't getting results then try, but you lit 2 fluorotubes the other day! What are you wanting to do run the air conditioner? ;D ;D

maybe one of these descriptions will help.

jeanna

Yes...It all makes sense now...hehe..you see I'm lefty and I do everything backwards :D

What about this?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 25, 2009, 09:02:19 PM

To me this looks like I'm crossing over the top of one and the bottom of the other all in one turn/wind but this seems to be the only way to not cross over twice! MK is this it?

Now that I think about it...it does look similar to the way Hazens backwinds! Not quite but similar!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 25, 2009, 09:08:27 PM

@stprue

You still make it wrong , i have modified your picture look at it !

Now the wire goes over 2 wire this should not happen . man i don't know what to say its seems so simple , but here we go .

Once you did it one way , going back fill the gap between the wire already one and dont skip wires.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 25, 2009, 09:16:04 PM

@stprue

One more picture , this is how it should look.

Mark

Its probably the like hazen , but i am not sure.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 25, 2009, 09:41:42 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 25, 2009, 09:16:04 PM
@stprue

One more picture , this is how it should look.

Mark

Its probably the like hazen , but i am not sure.

This is a great pic and will help anyone having trouble. The only thing That is catch me is that first back-down turn. In your alter pic of mine you have it just as a solid. Now there is no initial crossover you can see...so where is it? If you are winding it on the other side I am not getting that from your direction. What is happening on the first downward wind? I'm off to bed now but I will read your response asap tomorrow morning.

Thank you for your help...Stew

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 25, 2009, 09:44:55 PM

See,
Now look at the top one that MK1 just posted. It is not crossed twice but it looks it. It seems to be crossed on the top and the bottom.

I can see that you are only crossing it once but it just looks it. Get your crosses on the inside or this will never stop.

As Mark said, do not cross the first one. Just carefully place it in between the first 2 wires for the return trip. Then when you come out of the bottom, you can carefully place it again, but not next to the one you just wrapped, go past it and past the next one. That is where the question always arises. It seems wrong.

But I can see you are carefully placing them on the inside and letting them cross on the outside.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 25, 2009, 10:15:59 PM

Quote from: xee2 on June 25, 2009, 04:59:06 PM
... Does the scope have a multimeter built in? I need to use a capacitor to measure the voltage. And the voltage measured will depend on the value of the capacitance. So unless you are able to measure using a diode and a capacitor I do not think we will ever get the same readings. Without being able to get the same readings I do not see how we can compare results.

...

When we both had 200 ohms at the base resistor we got the same results. I got 235v on the highest peak to peak and you got 238v in your diode + cap. If your cap is too small you will not see a figure as high as I do, (as shown by your first result of 137v with 60pF cap.) but I will see all the other lower figures in addition.

I think we can see how we got the same results without having to make the tests exactly the same way. I should not have to cripple myself just to see the results exactly as yours are.

I would like you to try the other 2 windings and lower your pot . I got bonanza amounts when the pot got down to 38 ohm.

I would like to see what you get with the same winding and resistor value.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheNOP on June 25, 2009, 10:34:51 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on June 25, 2009, 06:57:08 AM
this i dont understand, there is the "old rule" electronics and the "new rule" electronics, the old rule is that electricity flows from + to -, the new rule is just the opposite. the reason for this is that atoms have electrons that travel down a wire and a electron has a - charge. well thats fine but how does a cap with a + charge do any work then? does it obsorb a - charge from the vacume? and why does it draw power from a battery to put that + charge on the cap when the + charge of a cap symbolizes the absence of charge? the more i hear EE's talk about electronics the more i think the industry has no F*'n clue! if someone has a explenation for this and wants to try to educate me please feel free.

sometime things have to be putted in the right context to understand the why of something.
this is what i remember of it.

the old "rules" was using electrons and holes to simplify how things where working at the electrons level.
hole saying: "electrons goes in reverse direction of the holes."
(the holes direction is equivalent to what you call "new rules".)
it is not really a new thing, see below.

the thing is that those holes does not exist.
we were warned that it was not the real thing.
it was a simpification of the how the electrons could posibly travel in a wire/semi-conductors/etc...

it was though that this simplification was "ok" for simple techniciens as they do not need to know exactly how it happen.
the thing they need to know is the direction.
the holes direction was telling it.

note that at the same time, physic classes and advance electronic classes were teaching the "complet thing.
also note the the electrons movements are a side effect of a flowing current not the reverse.

about capacitors.
the charges are relative to the power supply feeding it.
the supply create the charges imballance.
to my knowledge, a charges imbalance is not an electrons imballance.

while the created imballance is at it's max between the supply poles, there might/will also exist an imballance vs the capacitor environment to a more or lesser degree.
when you are creating a positive charges imballance in a cap, it does not mean the negative plate also get negative charges on the other plate.
it does not mean you don't get some either.
all is relative to the supply, how/where the cap is connected in your circuit and your circuit environment in general(wires can also acte as capacitor plates and the air as the dielectric.).

an other way to see xee2 example is this:
let say a cap is 2 buckets and when charges are ballanced those 2 buckets are half filled.
-if you pump(that is your power supply) the water from one bucket to the other you are creating a weith imballance.

-if you pump the water from one bucket to a third bucket, or empty it to the ground, you are also creating a weith imballance.

-you can also use not pump and just let one of the bucket drain
-also while you pump water from somewhere else in the other.

-etc...

as you can see, the imballance does not mean something appear from nowhere.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on June 25, 2009, 11:18:10 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 25, 2009, 03:17:16 PM
@jesus

Where you see failure i see progress , blowing a inductor from a dead battery , humm

Also spiritually , you didn't get the lion out this time , you are not in it for your pride but all humanity , lets the divine inspiration speak , lets it speak louder ...

Don't worry even if you cry wolf to many times , people will still watch but will be more prudent in there reply .

Maybe the battery is wrong for this look into nickel iron battery.

mark

Thank you @mk1 !

What I think happen is that the voltage is amplified and fedded back and reamplified till the coil cannot resist anymore and grayed after getting too hot.

I will mark one of the wires of the bar ferrite coil and I will unwind it in order to find which wire is at fault (The base or the collector wire).

After I find the wire, I will wind it triple turns. If it burns worst, then I learn that it was less turns instead of more turns.

Last time what was blown were the 1n4148 diodes. I changed them for 1n4001 and this time it blew the coil.

If the lord so desires I will find the balance of this circuit. Or maybe one of the other members found it already buy has kept it quiet.

@stprue
Wow you are a great toroid winder. Maybe the correct one when you get it will not work as good as the one you first did. So dont wory too much if it is not perfect.

Best wishes!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 25, 2009, 11:48:25 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on June 25, 2009, 02:47:40 PM
Last, I remade the 20 turns into a mk1 style 2^o.

At first the volts were down about the same amount as the hazens style, but there were more of them. Still very hard to see or stop the scope and look while on hold, though.

at 200r:
197v, 205v, 198v, 218v, 17v, 54v,

then I began to tune the resistor. I turned it down. I didn't check this one but it suddenly got very loud and changed pitch.
volts I saw were,
126v, 494v, 353v, 492v, 19v, 122v,

I wondered how much more so...

at 33.8r I got the top reading of 648v !!
Needless to say, I am being very careful with my scope.

Yes, please be careful with scope. As I recall the max input voltage is 300 volts without the probe set to divide by ten.

So, is this correct? >>> You are using a 3.38" toroid with 2 base coil turns, 10 collector coil turns, and a 20 turn MK1 pickup coil with a 33.8 ohm base resistor and you are getting spikes with 648 volt peaks and when the output of the pickup coil is connected to a fluorescent tube the tube lights with no problems.

If so, that is great. :o CONGRATULATIONS :o

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 26, 2009, 12:10:41 AM

Quote from: xee2 on June 25, 2009, 11:48:25 PM

So, is this correct? >>> You are using a 3.38" toroid with 2 base coil turns, 10 collector coil turns, and a 20 turn MK1 pickup coil with a 33.8 ohm base resistor and you are getting spikes with 648 volt peaks and when the output of the pickup coil is connected to a fluorescent tube the tube lights with no problems.

If so, that is great. :o CONGRATULATIONS :o

Everything but the tube.
I can light a neon.
I think this is the reason I talk about the quality of the wave???

And it is also why I would like it if you would also make this 20 turn MK1 style pickup.
Before the resistor adjustment the voltage was not anything like that and it went up quickly as I reduced the resistor vaue, then suddenly it started to scream and jumped up in 2 steps to 648.
It is still there. But the spikes are very infrequent as things go.

like this
_____________|__________________________|_________
I am trying to give a proportional example.
The frequency is 555hertz.
Most spikes are about the same height. I am sure you will get this 648v in a diode cap arrangement.

I probably need a cap arrangement to light a fluoro tube as these seem always needed, and I didn't do that.

I am considering changing the primary of the other one (biggo in the breadbasket) that does light a fluorotube. I just must be sure I have answered all my questions about it before I do a thing like take it apart. I would change it to 2T,10T like this one.

Tell me, would you expect a 20 turn pickup to light a fluoro?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 26, 2009, 12:55:13 AM

@ jeanna

Thanks. Here is a simple test we can do.

With the neon circuit (last circuit I posted) if I use a 500 ohm base resistor the neon will light. But if I use a 1K base resistor the neon will not light. That is with my 20 turn sloppy solenoid pickup coil. Can you check to see if a 20 turn MK1 pickup coil will light the neon with a 1K base resistor in the same circuit? I think this is what you have except for the 1K resistor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 26, 2009, 01:38:51 AM

Quote from: xee2 on June 26, 2009, 12:55:13 AM
@ jeanna

Thanks. Here is a simple test we can do.

With the neon circuit (last circuit I posted) if I use a 500 ohm base resistor the neon will light. But if I use a 1K base resistor the neon will not light. That is with my 20 turn sloppy solenoid pickup coil. Can you check to see if a 20 turn MK1 pickup coil will light the neon with a 1K base resistor in the same circuit? I think this is what you have except for the 1K resistor.

This is interesting.
The transistor/toroid combo won't even turn on at 1k ohm.
I used a 1k ohm pot.
At 235r the scope says the secondary is making 199-200volts across the leads.and the neon light turns on with a pop. It stays on longer if I turn it down, but I figure this is a better number.
BUT
My neon has a 32.4K ohm resistor built into it. (radio shack neon)
So, maybe this is a good test, but not a great test for us.

Does this tell you something?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 26, 2009, 01:54:05 AM

Hi All,
This is what the big globe light diffuser looks like with one of those 3 led push lights in the base.
It has a blue-ish hue to my eyes, but not this much. Pretty.
I think with 40 leds this will look like a real light. It is about 10 inches in diameter.

good night,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 26, 2009, 02:03:19 AM

@ jeanna

I did not have a 30K resistor so I put a 50K resistor in series with the neon so that we have closer to the same thing. The neon lights brightly with a 500 ohm base resistor and only lights half way up when I add the 50K resistor in series with the neon. I will add photos later.

I think you said the MK1 would not light neon with a 500 ohm base resistor. To me, this would indicate that the MK1 coil is not providing as much power out as the solenoid coil. Does that seem like a reasonable conclusion to you?

Photos are with 500 ohm base resistor. Sorry about the blur.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 26, 2009, 02:07:18 AM

Quote from: jeanna on June 26, 2009, 01:54:05 AM
Hi All,
This is what the big globe light diffuser looks like with one of those 3 led push lights in the base.
It has a blue-ish hue to my eyes, but not this much. Pretty.
I think with 40 leds this will look like a real light. It is about 10 inches in diameter.

good night,

jeanna

Jeanna:

That is a beautiful light there! Where did you find that? And, how much? I wonder if the light would be more diffused if you filled it with water or mineral oil? (Like my tube coil light experiment) I want to get one of those to play with.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 26, 2009, 08:48:19 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 25, 2009, 09:16:04 PM
@stprue

One more picture , this is how it should look.

Mark

Its probably the like hazen , but i am not sure.

Ok so I need to ask a question and stated some facts! The machanics of winding a toroid which is a circle creats sprial looping that is going in a particular direction. In your altered pic. the first turn back down is already inbetween the first wire but you see no cross overs. There needs to be a crossover. This means that it is being crossed over on the underside and then on the inside which leaves the outside all ////// and the inside /XXXX and one of undersides XXXX. Is this true because in the altered pic on the first turn back it is already on the other side or inbetween itself?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 26, 2009, 08:52:15 AM

Quote from: xee2 on June 26, 2009, 02:03:19 AM
@ jeanna

I did not have a 30K resistor so I put a 50K resistor in series with the neon so that we have closer to the same thing. The neon lights brightly with a 500 ohm base resistor and only lights half way up when I add the 50K resistor in series with the neon. I will add photos later.

I think you said the MK1 would not light neon with a 500 ohm base resistor. To me, this would indicate that the MK1 coil is not providing as much power out as the solenoid coil. Does that seem like a reasonable conclusion to you?

Photos are with 500 ohm base resistor. Sorry about the blur.

This is why POT's are soooooooo important for tuning.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 26, 2009, 10:40:19 AM

@ jeanna

I redid the photos using a 33K resistor in series with the neon so we should have almost identical test setups except for the pickup coils. With the 33K resistor in series with the neon it lights about 80% of its length when using the 20 turn solenoid pickup coil and a 500 ohm base resistor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 26, 2009, 11:24:39 AM

stpure ... ;D

i love your coils a wonderfully wound unit ... i just love the left hand aproch

;D

it has worked well for me ..

every step we all take are a part of the devine plan ;)

congrats to you all!

now if i can get you to put your rocks on next we all get the next level visual ;D

ra hahahahahaha ;D

ist! seeking ballance within each and every one that walks .. up right ... lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on June 26, 2009, 12:27:58 PM

@all

Now I am on the place of the child that cried wolf too much.

I unwinded the bar ferrite coil after marking one wire by bending it.
I bended the wire that goes to the transistors base.

But when I finish unwinding, I noticed that both wires are not grayed but yellowed on some parts along the wires.
That is more confusing to me. Maybe it needs the same lenght but with a thicker wire.
I just dont know, because I made a toroid last week and I used it today on the charger circuit and it gave no good sign.

This charging force comes strong one day and make me cry wolf wolf and then disappear.

I will follow @gadgetmall version of my diode configuration to see if I can rest from this wolf crying.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 26, 2009, 12:39:04 PM

@stprue

I got this picture , try this one , but basically the problem is that you cross over 2 rows of wire , it dose look nice , but you cant put as much wire on the toroid.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 26, 2009, 12:50:50 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 26, 2009, 12:39:04 PM
@stprue

I got this picture , try this one , but basically the problem is that you cross over 2 rows of wire , it dose look nice , but you cant put as much wire on the toroid.

Ok I found another way to get this look. So I can wind this coil to match everything you have altered in the pic! hea...

Now the underside that you can't see in the pic has a small cross as well but you can't see it unless you flip it over. I will try to take some pic's later tonight but does the sound right?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on June 26, 2009, 12:53:17 PM

@stprue

Did you know that you can practice winding the toroid using a piece of string?
You can use the piece of string as many times as you need to catch the winding mode you want to learn.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 26, 2009, 12:59:56 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on June 26, 2009, 12:53:17 PM
@stprue

Did you know that you can practice winding the toroid using a piece of string?
You can use the piece of string as many times as you need to catch the winding mode you want to learn.

Jesus

Yes I did know that but thank you anyway. I sometimes use string but most of the time use scrap or old used wire. Sometimes it's easier to see wire in a pic then string and it also generally has more depth.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 26, 2009, 02:01:32 PM

Quote from: xee2 on June 26, 2009, 02:03:19 AM
@ jeanna
I did not have a 30K resistor so I put a 50K resistor in series with the neon so that we have closer to the same thing.

Great!

Quote..

I think you said the MK1 would not light neon with a 500 ohm base resistor. ...

No,

what I said was that the big toroid wound with 2T,10T will not turn on the transistor at 500 ohm base resistor.

You first presented the circuit we have been using with a 200ohm base resistor. The copy I made worked just exactly as yours did with 238v output from the single wound secondary.

But the system turns on somewhere between 500ohm and 250ohm. I saw the system turning on, but did not think to measure it.

anyway, I do not think this says anything about the secondary yet.

Thank you for getting the resistor.
I have been thinking of shorting mine around the resistor.

Do you think it will break it to do that? I wonder why RS made it that way.??

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 26, 2009, 02:28:50 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 26, 2009, 02:07:18 AM
Jeanna:

That is a beautiful light there! Where did you find that? And, how much?
...
I want to get one of those to play with.
Bill

Thanks Bill,
I like it a lot.
I got it at the Quantum thrift store. ;) (= you must focus on what you want then you will find the very thing inside the doors.)

Do you remember when we were kids there were some older schools, probably the high school, where the overhead lights were black iron with a globe at the bottom? (movies from the 40's have these shown too.)

This may not be the very thing, but it could be. It is about the size of my head.

The thrift store halves the price if something is not sold in a month. This had not sold for 2 months so the $1.35 price in April turned into 35cents...I let her round it up a nickel..

Pretty good.

I think I saw it but was unwilling to pay $1.35. Also, I made a little joule thief with secondary and 4 leds in an altoids box. I showed it the day I made it. I remembered to bring it with me the other day and I could test it for brightness. Sometimes these etched glass globes are too dense and don't let any light go through. I have a few of these- mistakes.

My plan with this is to make an array of 40 leds going in a hemispheric way inside the globe. I am still thinking of how to do that.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 26, 2009, 02:51:39 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on June 26, 2009, 02:01:32 PM
I have been thinking of shorting mine around the resistor.

Do you think it will break it to do that? I wonder why RS made it that way.??

Yes it will work without the resistor. The neon electrodes will last longer if the bulb has lower current. So the resistor is added to reduce the current. But it will last thousands of hours without the resistor. And most of our circuits do not have really high currents.

Try increasing the base coil from 2 turns to 3 turns on the 3" toroid. With 3 turns mine works with base resistors as high as 5K ohms (12 volts out with 19 ma battery drain).

EDIT: I do not think you should use the neon without a resistor with 120 volt AC out of a wall socket. That might put too much current through the bulb (I just do not know since I have not tested this).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 26, 2009, 03:51:17 PM

@ electricim

Re: Method for converting HV (static) into usable low-voltage power.

Do you think a similar method on a smaller scale could work for a JT?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 26, 2009, 04:33:59 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 26, 2009, 02:28:50 PM

My plan with this is to make an array of 40 leds going in a hemispheric way inside the globe. I am still thinking of how to do that.

thank you,

jeanna

Jeanna

The LED arrays that I have been using would work very nicely for that light.
They are 60 or 90 LEDs .......the circuits driving them are compleatly different .
The 60 LED array is set up in 2 sections ......they can be driven by connecting 2 the 2 outer legs The normal voltage ......the voltage it ran at from the factory was 84 V

The 90 LED array is set up diffeent . it is connected at 5 differerent locations ..... I didn;t measure the voltage before I took iit apart but the electronics in this unit light it up much easier than the 60 LED array .
I have been using it with its electronics intact.

The PC board on the 60 is 3 in across
I have driven it with different JTs at 40 to 250 V
It worked great untill I tried it with a MOT JT

These are available at Costco or some Walmarts .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 26, 2009, 06:37:38 PM

@Gary

Did you try incandescent light bulb on the mot .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 26, 2009, 06:42:55 PM

What is this... I couldn't get on this page because the ads page was down!!!

@xee,
I will change to 3 turns if you do. I would much rather keep the 2:10 ratio and I would rather have that be the same, than be able to turn on my toroid with 2Kohm base resistor. Most of the time the optimal base resistance is below 500r anyway., So, those are my reasons to not add the 3rd wind, unless you need it for any reason.

It may just be a more flexible 3055 at your end or a more highly charged battery, or something like that... You are using a battery are you not? I mean you are not using a 1.5 power supply plugged into the grid are you?
==
RS sells the neon in a 2 pack, so I have a spare. I may remove the resistor then, because my neon will probably go on at lower voltages than it has been. I seem to need about 200 volts to turn this one on.

I wonder what those camera neons used. This resistor is so obvious in this one and I never saw one at all in those from the cameras. I wonder if it had a different kind of gas.

@Gary,
I went right to walmart when you first told me about this. They have some led spots there, but 10 leds, not 60. I would like to make this one for some reason anyway. I want to place another order from the chinese led people soon. I think I will get 500 I think for $35 or $40. Once I get the light fixtures right, I will change the whole house to led lamps. I also want to try to take a frosted edison bulb apart and see how they do in there esp with a jt for power.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on June 26, 2009, 07:24:15 PM

It's fairly well known that the coils on the Joule Thief coerce one another into functioning at resonance - resonance itself being a common occurrence, doesn't it stand to reason that if there are two minds - two electrical bodies within distance of one another, that some coupling might occur?

I was just thinking of the Stubblefield arrays, and I've recently got a few spare dsl filters laying around that have the inductors in them, I'm thinking they would make a good test device.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 26, 2009, 08:18:27 PM

well i guess im gonna build a mot unit :)

but i will build it a wee bit diffrent than i already have ..

just like a jt but i want to trap the colpase in the trsansformer so i need some kind of heavy diode

i will force the colpase out the primary winding i will use the center pancke style winding as a primary and the secondary as a trigger .. and the core as the resistor because of the high inductance the secondary will not allow it to flow to the battery or transistor on the driveing side of the transistor we want to block it so it can not feed back and blow the transistor then the power has but 1 path ;D :D

yep right through the bulb..... ;)

ist

see how it goes

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 26, 2009, 08:26:58 PM

@ jenna

Quote from: jeanna on June 26, 2009, 06:42:55 PM
@xee,
I will change to 3 turns if you do. I would much rather keep the 2:10 ratio and I would rather have that be the same, than be able to turn on my toroid with 2Kohm base resistor. Most of the time the optimal base resistance is below 500r anyway., So, those are my reasons to not add the 3rd wind, unless you need it for any reason.

It may just be a more flexible 3055 at your end or a more highly charged battery, or something like that... You are using a battery are you not? I mean you are not using a 1.5 power supply plugged into the grid are you?

I am using a AAA battery at about 1.3 volts.

You are correct, the transistors may have different gains. The spec has a wide window.

I only posted this circuit to show you that the 3" toroid would work with 2 base turns. If you want to use 2 base turns that is OK with me. But I recommend 3 turns. Although I have not seen any big difference in output voltage between 2 and 3 turns on the base.

I am getting about 250 volts with a 1000 pF output capacitor. It seems that to double the output voltage the turns on the pickup coil need to be increased by 4. So if I go to 80 turns it should light a fluorescent tube. My next test is to see if this is true. This means I will be destroying my current toroid unless you have tests you want us to do with that configuration. Please let me know.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 26, 2009, 08:55:17 PM

Quote from: xee2 on June 26, 2009, 08:26:58 PM
...But I recommend 3 turns. Although I have not seen any big difference in output voltage between 2 and 3 turns on the base.

.... So if I go to 80 turns it should light a fluorescent tube. My next test is to see if this is true. This means I will be destroying my current toroid unless you have tests you want us to do with that configuration. Please let me know.

Xee,
I am wondering if you can get the very high voltage I got at about 33.8 ohm?
I didn't try for this with the solenoid type pickup and I am wondering.
I am not sure it matters if you do it now or later, but I may ask you later! :)

80 turns. This will be interesting... Are you planning to make them just straight as I guess you call solenoid?
You will have plenty of room. I guess you will use up about half of the toroid.

It will be very telling to see how this works. I am looking forward to see your results... the yes ones and the no ones.

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 26, 2009, 09:01:36 PM

A buddy of mine on Youtube posted this and asked me to bring it to your attention:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mxa_G4X8Y7k&feature=related

He did not film this and it is in some language I do not recognize but it is what appears to be an earth battery, joule thief, spark gap (Jeanna will like this) and God knows what else and they are lighting about a dozen incandescent bulbs from it.

It is a 7 part series (the link above is for part 1) and maybe someone here will be able to figure out what they are saying. It is very interesting to say the least. I can't quite figure out what they are doing even though I recognize some of the components.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 26, 2009, 09:03:24 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 26, 2009, 06:37:38 PM
@Gary

Did you try incandescent light bulb on the mot .

Mark

Mark

I have not tried an incandesent bulb with theMOT yet

I will try it later
RIght now something is not quite right with my 3055 board
It is not working as well as it first did .
I get good voltage with no load .......but it drops to almost nothing as soon as I put any kind of load on it

I can't even get it to light my CFL anymore.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 26, 2009, 09:16:05 PM

@Gary, did you fry the 3055 with the mot?

Hi everybody,
I am compiling pictures and text and will be busy for a while, but I named this for gary and I thought I should post it now rather than later.
This is a spool of magwire being used as an inductor to light a light.
It makes a beautiful wave and shows voltage even while lighting the light but it doesn't light it very brightly.
It is on the left and lights 2 in parallel; the 18 leds in series are from 2 toroids on the right.

for now...

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Yucca on June 26, 2009, 09:31:37 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 26, 2009, 09:01:36 PM
A buddy of mine on Youtube posted this and asked me to bring it to your attention:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mxa_G4X8Y7k&feature=related

He did not film this and it is in some language I do not recognize but it is what appears to be an earth battery, joule thief, spark gap (Jeanna will like this) and God knows what else and they are lighting about a dozen incandescent bulbs from it.

It is a 7 part series (the link above is for part 1) and maybe someone here will be able to figure out what they are saying. It is very interesting to say the least. I can't quite figure out what they are doing even though I recognize some of the components.

Bill

WOW! Just up to part 3 now. great watching!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 26, 2009, 09:42:47 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 26, 2009, 06:42:55 PM

@Gary,
I went right to walmart when you first told me about this. They have some led spots there, but 10 leds, not 60. I would like to make this one for some reason anyway. I want to place another order from the chinese led people soon. I think I will get 500 I think for $35 or $40. Once I get the light fixtures right, I will change the whole house to led lamps. I also want to try to take a frosted edison bulb apart and see how they do in there esp with a jt for power.

Jeanna

Is this what you are getting ?

http://www.besthongkong.com/product_info.php?cPath=75_1_14&products_id=132

I have ordered a couple of times from them

what about getting the light fixtures right ?
Are you planning on running the JTs at higher voltage or putting a step down transformer in each lamp .
In a way a transformer might be nice ....... you would have the option of adding a battery for emergency lighting .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 26, 2009, 09:46:46 PM

@ jenna

Quote from: jeanna on June 26, 2009, 08:55:17 PM
Xee,
I am wondering if you can get the very high voltage I got at about 33.8 ohm?

I went down to 20 ohms and the output did not go much over 250 volts. I do not think you were getting any significant amount of energy at 600 volts else you would have been able to light the fluorescent tube.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 26, 2009, 11:20:28 PM

I agree with you, xee2. I also didn't expect even that high a spike with 20 turns, so I can see by getting the spikes closer together which is what I have been learning how to do, I should be able to get more this time than last time. On the other hand, maybe not, since this collector coil has a lot more turns than the other one which had only 3.

But, that is what this is about, isn't it? Try it out and find it out!

@Gary,
What I meant about getting the fixtures right is finding fixtures that offer the right amount of light diffusion. I have found the perfect kind of glass. It is lighter in whiteness than the one I showed last night. It looks more translucent. I have 2 of these and another that is close. All 3 were made to be candle holders. I turn them over and put the led up into them and they are really great. Maybe I will show you later with a yellow led candle... or I could put it over that array I just showed.

@Bill,
That is a pretty great find.
They sure look Serbian, don't they? especially the younger men?
I think that black lunchbox is a solenoid submerged in oil.

My guess ( I only have watched 2 so far) is this is the version with the low voltage generator starting the system. also starting the solenoid.

the 2 get put together and wow you have all you need.

I think I see several circuit parts there
EB to solenoid
EB to inverter to inductor which makes little sparks on the side of the green housing. That gets really hot and needs a heatsink.
The lights seem go on without the extra pop of the solenoid.
Hmm, Maybe those shots of the ugo and the street were shots of an antenna. Maybe it is only part earth battery and part antenna.

I betcha this is a replication of what Tesla talked about in his lectures of 1892-4. It seems right out of that book.
I wonder if these people have the "lost" records?

What a wonderful find. Thank you so much. I am really glad that guy found it on torrent and put it up onto youtube. thanks for bringing it to us!

What a wonderful team this is!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 27, 2009, 02:08:13 AM

Easy to make. No problem ligting tube. Anybody can do it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 27, 2009, 02:08:14 AM

Another nite light picture.
These are the 2 candle holders that are upside down over leds.

The yellow one is a single yellow/orange led - one of the led candles I made a few years ago. The other is this 3 superbright spot. It is a lot brighter in this fixtire than without it.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 27, 2009, 02:11:33 AM

xee2

OMG YOU DID IT!
Very nice.

jeanna

edit
no caps? just 2T10T80T? and a 4 watt fluoro.
Tomorrow, will you please time this on your battery?
I would like to know the dead amount on your battery as well. Mine was 1.18v on my biggo.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 27, 2009, 02:21:29 AM

@ Jeanna and Yucca:

Yes, I am still trying to watch the rest of them. (We had more severe storms here today) The thing in the ground is a car radiator, and I saw the coil (coils) (JT?) and the thing with the spark gap (No transistor then) but other than that, we have no idea what is going on. Hopefully, with out international reach here on this site, someone will recognize the language and be able to help tell us what is being said. The battery seems to be used to get it going and then is disconnected. Reminds me of Stubblefield and Tesla.

If this could be replicated it would be incredible. To light all those Edison based bulbs there has to be amps which means Watts.

I posted it here to reach the largest amount of views in hopes of having someone tell us what is said. If we get someone to do that, we can start another topic so we don't get too far astray here but I knew most of you folks would be interested in this as that is real light they are getting and with that many watts, one could run heat and air units and who knows what else? This could run Jim's "old" ac unit so he does not have to buy a new one to comply with his government.

Jeanna:

Very nice lights there...very pretty and very functional.

If anyone has any information on where this video was shot and what the language is and what they are saying, please let me know.

Thank you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 27, 2009, 02:24:09 AM

Xee2:

Nice circuit! I'll bet this will light and 18" and then a 48" tube easily. That is a very bright 4 watt tube you have going there.

I know this was posted way back somewhere, but where did you guys get those large toroids?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 27, 2009, 02:50:11 AM

@ Pirate88179

Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 27, 2009, 02:24:09 AM
I know this was posted way back somewhere, but where did you guys get

http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/TOR-60/3.38-DIAMETER-FERRITE-TOROID/1.html

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 27, 2009, 03:03:43 AM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on June 27, 2009, 02:11:33 AM
will you please time this on your battery?

You do not need to time, just calculate.

hours = (battery mAh rating) / (battery drain mA)

for AA battery the mAh rating at 200 mA = 2200

hours = 2200 / 200 = 11

NOTE: mAh is milliamp-hours

some of the other circuits I posted had less than 100 mA battery drain:

mAh rating for AA battery at 100 ma drain is 2500

with 100 mA battery drain > hours = 2500/100 = 25 hours

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on June 27, 2009, 03:24:23 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 26, 2009, 09:01:36 PM
A buddy of mine on Youtube posted this and asked me to bring it to your attention:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mxa_G4X8Y7k&feature=related

He did not film this and it is in some language I do not recognize but it is what appears to be an earth battery, joule thief, spark gap (Jeanna will like this) and God knows what else and they are lighting about a dozen incandescent bulbs from it.

It is a 7 part series (the link above is for part 1) and maybe someone here will be able to figure out what they are saying. It is very interesting to say the least. I can't quite figure out what they are doing even though I recognize some of the components.

Bill

they bury an automobile? radiator that appears to be empty (i am assuming that's why they rolled it all about and turned it on all axis) wetting the ground while burying.

i think i learned a new swear word in vid 2 @ 2:52 ;D
i'm only on vid 3 but this is very interesting. a 'cobbled' tesla coil on the outside of a large green box. what's in the green box? i'm curious to see how it ends. did they use the 12v car battery to 'charge' the radiator in the ground? does the water pipe run near the radiator under ground?

back in an hour or so when i get done with the rest.
thanks bill.

edit:
maybe ask the user 'forest' to take a look. he might know the language.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 27, 2009, 04:45:45 AM

@ All:

I started a new topic here:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7679.new#new (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7679.new#new)

for anyone that wants to discuss the earth battery geo videos posted on Youtube. I didn't want to get too off-topic here even though it is related, since I don't know how it works I don't know if it has a joule thief or not.

@ Wilby:

Yes, I believe that was a swear word, ha ha. Looks like he got bit when he flipped that switch.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 27, 2009, 09:56:56 AM

@Mk1 @Jeanna

Ok I'm sure I did it!

X2 style
20t up then 20 down using 26 gauge mag wire
107.7 Ohms after tuning with a 500 Ohm POT
2N3055
104vDC one side no alterations i.e. cap's for increased performance

Let me know if these readings sound right for one side?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 27, 2009, 12:03:30 PM

@ stprue

Quote from: stprue on June 27, 2009, 09:56:56 AM
@Mk1 @Jeanna
X2 style
20t up then 20 down using 26 gauge mag wire
107.7 Ohms after tuning with a 500 Ohm POT
2N3055
104vDC one side no alterations i.e. cap's for increased performance

Can you make another toroid that is identical except for pickup coil with just 40 turns random wrap ed for pickup coil (all going around toroid in same direction) to compare against the MK toroid. I am very curious to see how much better the MK coil is than other coils.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 27, 2009, 12:17:29 PM

Quote from: xee2 on June 27, 2009, 03:03:43 AM
@ jeanna

You do not need to time, just calculate.

OK,
Then what I want to know is at what point in this circuit of yours does the battery get declared dead by the fluoro light.

(I know when mine does, I am asking you for similar info)
I suspect you have not tried this.
I am surprised by your response.
You are an experimenter, and you know that the only way to find out is to try it.

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 27, 2009, 12:33:53 PM

Quote from: stprue on June 27, 2009, 09:56:56 AM
@Mk1 @Jeanna

Ok I'm sure I did it!

X2 style
20t up then 20 down using 26 gauge mag wire
107.7 Ohms after tuning with a 500 Ohm POT
2N3055
104vDC one side no alterations i.e. cap's for increased performance

Let me know if these readings sound right for one side?

This sounds possible for this stage.
The thing is this is not yet finished.

Go ahead and put both sides together to get the full reason for going to all this trouble (might as well)
Now, with it all together, fine tune it.
.....
I am not sure what you will get with your medium 5/$1 toroid from the goldmine, if that is what that is. But Hazens was able to do it with one, so you will too.

You must tune it all now.( I do not think you have found the perfect resistance yet, but you still only have one half done.)

good job. Great perseverance. Keep trying.
thank you for this report also,

jeanna

edit
Let me just check
20up, 20down, cross over the primary, 20up,20down
yes?
edit again:
oops, I got out the magnifying glass, and I can see it is only half wrapped.
I will measure my filter with a mk1 at the half way count and let you know soon.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 27, 2009, 01:00:44 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 27, 2009, 12:33:53 PM
This sounds possible for this stage.
The thing is this is not yet finished.

Go ahead and put both sides together to get the full reason for going to all this trouble (might as well)
Now, with it all together, fine tune it.
.....
I am not sure what you will get with your medium 5/$1 toroid from the goldmine, if that is what that is. But Hazens was able to do it with one, so you will too.

You must tune it all now.( I do not think you have found the perfect resistance yet, but you still only have one half done.)

good job. Great perseverance. Keep trying.
thank you for this report also,

jeanna

edit
Let me just check
20up, 20down, cross over the primary, 20up,20down
yes?
edit again:
oops, I got out the magnifying glass, and I can see it is only half wrapped.
I will measure my filter with a mk1 at the half way count and let you know soon.

jeanna

After wrapping the other side it went down to 35 volts..I then re wrapped it and got the same results so I'm not sure what is wrong??? The good news is that I may have stumbled upon something very important!!! I don't want to talk about it until I actually build this new hybrid coil though.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 27, 2009, 01:01:23 PM

Quote from: xee2 on June 27, 2009, 12:03:30 PM
@ stprue

Can you make another toroid that is identical except for pickup coil with just 40 turns random wrap ed for pickup coil (all going around toroid in same direction) to compare against the MK toroid. I am very curious to see how much better the MK coil is than other coils.

I have a new Idea but your coils work great so don't worry about it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 27, 2009, 01:05:01 PM

@stprue

Looking good ... i think you should try removing turns on the x2 i usually use 2x2=4 on each side.

Now if you need more voltage on the hv there is 70 turns going one way for 850 volts.

Mark

I usually get over 120 volt on 20-24 turn pickup coil , the difference may be a result of diodes , having a high voltage diode , can lower the voltage i have seen 20 to 40 volts difference between diodes.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 27, 2009, 01:17:05 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 27, 2009, 01:05:01 PM
@stprue

Looking good ... i think you should try removing turns on the x2 i usually use 2x2=4 on each side.

Now if you need more voltage on the hv there is 70 turns going one way for 850 volts.

Mark

I usually get over 120 volt on 20-24 turn pickup coil , the difference may be a result of diodes , having a high voltage diode , can lower the voltage i have seen 20 to 40 volts difference between diodes.

I should try a doide because I think the bridges are to much for this coil!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 27, 2009, 01:34:32 PM

@stprue

Don't forget to try removing some turns on the x2 , i think you maybe losing 10 to 15 volts now, but only testing will tell ...

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 27, 2009, 01:41:03 PM

@Jeanna

I will try to post results sunday, I am busy until then!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 27, 2009, 01:42:26 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 27, 2009, 01:34:32 PM
@stprue

Don't forget to try removing some turns on the x2 , i think you maybe losing 10 to 15 volts now, but only testing will tell ...

Mark

Yes I will do that and also try a basic MK set up for those to see what happens. Last time you told me to remove a few turns I did and I gianed lost of extra voltage.

Thanks...Stew

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 27, 2009, 01:56:38 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on June 27, 2009, 12:17:29 PM
OK,
Then what I want to know is at what point in this circuit of yours does the battery get declared dead by the fluoro light.

(I know when mine does, I am asking you for similar info)
I suspect you have not tried this.
I am surprised by your response.
You are an experimenter, and you know that the only way to find out is to try it.

thanks,

jeanna

You are correct. I have not tried this because I do not want to sit around for 2 days watching a light.

But since you have. What battery were you using, what was your initial battery drain mA, and how long did the tube stay lit. The battery mAh rating is from 1.5 volts to 0.8 volts. So the JT should run longer than the calculation. Probably about 50% longer since the battery drain current will drop as the battery voltage drops and a JT can run with battery as low as 0.5 volts. Perhaps we can improve the calculation to give more accurate times for the JT.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 27, 2009, 03:20:38 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 26, 2009, 11:20:28 PM

@Gary,
What I meant about getting the fixtures right is finding fixtures that offer the right amount of light diffusion. I have found the perfect kind of glass. It is lighter in whiteness than the one I showed last night. It looks more translucent. I have 2 of these and another that is close. All 3 were made to be candle holders. I turn them over and put the led up into them and they are really great. Maybe I will show you later with a yellow led candle... or I could put it over that array I just showed.

Jeanna

The right kind of diffusor is a good thing but it is not what I was trying to ask about

You said you were planning on swiching the lights in your house over to LEDs ...... how are you powering them ?
Are you planning on changing batterys every few days ?
Or using stepped down AC?

I am still thinking that a a coil can be used to step down the voltage being used ..... I have decided it is time to work on that today .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 27, 2009, 04:48:59 PM

Connecting either side of pickup coil to negative side of battery will make it easier to light the tube. This is not needed with 200 ohm base resistor, but I found that when using a 400 ohm base resistor the tube would not light without touching it unless the connection from one side of pickup coil (either side works) is made to the negative side of battery.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 27, 2009, 05:52:33 PM

Quote from: xee2 on June 27, 2009, 01:56:38 PM
@ jeanna

You are correct. I have not tried this because I do not want to sit around for 2 days watching a light.

But since you have. What battery were you using, what was your initial battery drain mA, and how long did the tube stay lit. The battery mAh rating is from 1.5 volts to 0.8 volts. So the JT should run longer than the calculation. Probably about 50% longer since the battery drain current will drop as the battery voltage drops and a JT can run with battery as low as 0.5 volts. Perhaps we can improve the calculation to give more accurate times for the JT.

I am sure you will not be sitting around for 2 days.

I used a NiMH AA rated at 2500mAH
The fully charged battery was able to light the light for 5 1/4 hours one way but only 4 1/2 hours 2 other ways.
The "dead" voltage as far as the fluoro light was concerned was 1.12v.

I think I am seeing that the joule thief and the joule thief with pickup have different tolerances. The bjt can drain the battery very deeply. the jt with pickup cannot run the show off the pickup when the battery is down "some".

The "some" is something I think we could look at. It may hold more clues than a timeline.

ergo my question to you.

oops and edit add
The mA draw before the fluoro light was on was 75mA. The light extinguished when I had the volts/10ohm resistor at the battery, -- of course, this took away too many volts.

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 27, 2009, 05:53:51 PM

i just got done winding this unit on a 1" with 26 ga ... have not ran it yet ...

just had a brain fart ... warning ... may hurt ... not sure as i have not tryed it ...

but how bout you take a flyback from a tv and wind a jt on it ...

i would expect it to work ok in this setup ...

might light a few bulbs

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 27, 2009, 06:00:43 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 27, 2009, 03:20:38 PM

Jeanna

Are you planning on changing batterys every few days ?
Or using stepped down AC?

I am still thinking that a a coil can be used to step down the voltage being used ..... I have decided it is time to work on that today .

gary

ummm batteries. Off the grid except for the internet. ;D

A coil can indeed step it down. I am about to post some more details on yesterdays findings next door.

Step down and keep the frequency the same by not changing the base resistor. hmm interesting. Many questions are coming up.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 27, 2009, 06:42:25 PM

i decided to take apart a celing fan motor today ;D

it was a pain but i took it all apart

guess whitch part i snaged ...

?

thats right the ring so what if i wound on here a mk2 jt it wants to spin due to induction plus there is alum in it so.... what will be if we set it up 4 bifillar coils then .....

2 jts transformer and generator then generator transformer .... hummmmm

lol

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 27, 2009, 07:33:40 PM

@ist

I will really like a picture of this fan ...

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 27, 2009, 07:59:26 PM

here ya go mark

they didnt turn out the best .. but o well

ist

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3yvdXIjGSo :)

I now wound on here a 7 turn primary 14 ga solid and i was gonna wind another mass to mass as the first primary then i got to thinking over top of the pickup coils wich will be joined at one end the short end in the pic showen as a mk2 picup coil intertwined but not crossed and output will come of the long ends ..

but i was thinking of winding a mass to mass secondary of 28 ga like my shift coil ... and it would be hooked up with the first primary then the second primary is 180 deg out of placement as the first one ... so i will 2 jts all mass to mass except the picups i will then wind over top of the primaries another mk2 picup the same as showen in the pic below but thease ones will grab from the 28 ga windings ... and i could do 1 final collector winding right around the hole thing ....

lol

what ya think

ist! its already half done ... ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 27, 2009, 09:29:37 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on June 27, 2009, 05:52:33 PM
I am sure you will not be sitting around for 2 days.

I used a NiMH AA rated at 2500mAH
The fully charged battery was able to light the light for 5 1/4 hours one way but only 4 1/2 hours 2 other ways.
The "dead" voltage as far as the fluoro light was concerned was 1.12v.

OK. I will try a test. Just for you. We will see what happens.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 27, 2009, 10:07:16 PM

some body got a good jt to power this bad boy at about 30v dc with a super cap ;)

it should be neat

im gonna finish it off...

ist!

ideas ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 27, 2009, 10:27:29 PM

Quote from: xee2 on June 27, 2009, 09:29:37 PM
@ jeanna

OK. I will try a test. Just for you. We will see what happens.

OH excellent!
Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on June 28, 2009, 05:17:13 AM

bill asked for details on the 'beerlight'

the bulb was from a acer? scanner. it measures 9 1/2" long or 24cm. very thin and fragile.
power supply was 3.7v dc. a cell phone battery.
the driving circuit was a royer, shown below. thanks to mikem_2au for the image.
resistors are both 120 ohm
transistors are both ztx869
c1 is 2.2nf 1000v dc polypropylene
c2 is 1.5Âµf 63v dc polypropylene
c3 is 100Âµf 6.3v electrolytic
l1 is 22Âµh
w1 400 turns 0.18mm
w2 4 turns .5mm
w3 4 turns .5mm
w4 3 turns .31mm
windings go on the core in the order of their respective number.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 28, 2009, 05:20:13 AM

Thanks Wilby! Now I have some work to do to replicate this. I hate to have an empty beer keg go to waste.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on June 28, 2009, 05:35:14 AM

you can also drive the scanner bulb with one of those little electric bug swatters driven with 2 aa's or for better light, a cell phone battery. just remove the resistor and the big cap on the output.

i have an image somewhere with the component list for both the 2.4 and 4v versions. i'll dig around and see if i can find it for you.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 28, 2009, 10:49:14 AM

i just want to ask a question as to what effect highfreq electromagnetic feilds has on alum ...

kind of a reflection effect ? if so this will have a rotation with it too i wound all coils same dirrection ...

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 28, 2009, 03:42:54 PM

@ jeanna

Note that this test used battery already drained to 1.23 volts at start of test so that I would not have to spend so much time taking data. Therefore tube should stay lit about 20 hours if started with fully charged battery. JT was still working at end of test but there was not enough current for the tube to produce detectable light.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 28, 2009, 04:31:23 PM

xee2,
Why do I think you tested a different circuit?
jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 28, 2009, 05:12:11 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on June 28, 2009, 04:31:23 PM
xee2,
Why do I think you tested a different circuit?
jeanna

??? ??? I tested an example of a circuit that would run for a long time. Isn't that what you wanted to do? If so, here is how to do it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 28, 2009, 08:12:03 PM

@ jeanna

The 3" toroid circuit with 2B-10C-80P coil will also work at low voltages just by decreasing the base resistor value. But I do not think this is good choice for a long duration circuit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 28, 2009, 10:20:59 PM

@stprue,

Quote from: stprue on June 26, 2009, 03:51:17 PM
@ electricim

Re: Method for converting HV (static) into usable low-voltage power.

Do you think a similar method on a smaller scale could work for a JT?

hmm, hard to answer this, before I do, let me say I have been away since friday, so I have some catching up to do first, ohhhhh this thread is so dynamic, makes the head spin at times.
For instance, I have a completely new toroid wind to read up on, phewwww, lol

OK that said, the answer is yes, take a look at how the aerial wire picks up energy and is fed into the "top" of an ignition coil, one of the 2 secondaries go to earth, the other to the Batt, but this off the cuff and I will have to check it out for certantity.
Although using this method, you will need to take precorsions, to bleed off any very high pulces by using a series spark gap arrangement, it is able to regulate it, say 3 X .1thou gaps, just 3 bolts setup next to each other eg,

Aerial end connects >>--------[bolt head 1] [Bolt head 2] [Bolt head 3]------wire to earth
| wire to circuit connects here |
| |
| circuit -----
---
-

I'm on P773 and reading,,,,,, chugga chugga chugga lol

I have just finished reading catchup, wow was there a lot this time ha.

To answer stprues question, by chance, and I don't believe in chances, I came across this web address, over the weekend while I was away, I didn't know stprue was going to ask me the question.
http://scene.org/~esa/merlib/radiant_energy_antenna_system.pdf

Now there are 2 circuits, charging a 12v battery, by aerial power, the HV pulses are switched via the negative, guess what! there is a neon involved toooo. lol.

It wouldn't take too much to develop this circuit as an addon to the Joule Thief to charge batteries.
Mabe, even have aerial power asist to power the toroid itself.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 29, 2009, 12:30:28 AM

Hi Jim, Nice to see you again. I hope your weekend was charming.

@All,
I have been reading the Tesla lecture delivered in London in 1892 this evening. I came across a very interesting paragraph.

QuoteJust in how much a very high frequency is essential for the production of the results presented is a question which, even with my present experience, would embarrass me to answer. Some of the experiments may be performed with low frequencies ; but very high frequencies are desirable, not only on account of the many effects secured by their use, but also as a convenient means of obtaining, in the induction apparatus employed, the high potentials, which in their turn are necessary to the demonstration of most of the experiments here contemplated.

So, my brain realized the reason high frequencies are so important is (as he says right here) to produce the high voltage needed.
It is because the back emf can and will happen every time the switch occurs, and a high frequency means that the switch occurs many times.
This also makes his comment about the rate of change make more sense to me too. This is the suddenness of the switch, and if the inductance and the reactance are happening more sharply, there will be more and higher voltage resulting.

Ahh, I can now understand why he was telling us at another time, that although frequency was very important it wasn't the frequency itself that mattered.

OK, I will go back to the reading corner now.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 29, 2009, 01:08:58 AM

@all
GOD is so good, :D
lol last week I had a "good winge" about unfair gov policy to not allow me to use my aircons, etc etc.
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25685730-3102,00.html
This not where I originally heard about it, but you will get the "gist" of it.

Well guess what, I went along to my favorite scondhand junkman place in town, and there I spies me a big generator (ex army). I don't know what model it is, the pull rope works, and there is 3 HD electrical outlets. It is adjustable from 120volts - 240volts, the gauges say it can handle up to and looks like over a tad of 100 plus amps, its sprayed all over in dark (faded) green paint.
The best part, He he, I got it for $100 ausie dollars, yipeeeeeeeeee.
I don't even know if it works or not, got to flush out the bad petrol, it has a magnito, no battery.

If anyone recognises this unit from the pics, and can let me know its model, where I can get a operaters manual etc etc, please poste in this thread, or send me an email TA ;D

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 29, 2009, 02:57:49 AM

Low battery voltage tests on 3.38" toroid with 100 ohm base resistor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 29, 2009, 07:48:54 AM

Quote from: electricme on June 29, 2009, 01:08:58 AM
@all
GOD is so good, :D
lol last week I had a "good winge" about unfair gov policy to not allow me to use my aircons, etc etc.
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25685730-3102,00.html
This not where I originally heard about it, but you will get the "gist" of it.

Well guess what, I went along to my favorite scondhand junkman place in town, and there I spies me a big generator (ex army). I don't know what model it is, the pull rope works, and there is 3 HD electrical outlets. It is adjustable from 120volts - 240volts, the gauges say it can handle up to and looks like over a tad of 100 plus amps, its sprayed all over in dark (faded) green paint.
The best part, He he, I got it for $100 ausie dollars, yipeeeeeeeeee.
I don't even know if it works or not, got to flush out the bad petrol, it has a magnito, no battery.

If anyone recognises this unit from the pics, and can let me know its model, where I can get a operaters manual etc etc, please poste in this thread, or send me an email TA ;D

jim

Nice! I wish we had some hidden treasures around here like that. I did manage to score 20 old hard drives for the magnets and plates. for my Tesla turbine :)

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on June 29, 2009, 07:52:20 AM

@jeanna

Hows things going with your biggo? Have you made it past 6 hours of light yet?

@xee2

Nice and simple circuit you have there I am sure it would light a CFL for more then 12 hours. Could you try lighting a larger tube to see if it will light for the same amount of time?

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 29, 2009, 08:56:39 AM

@Pirate (Bill) and to All,
Part translation on those 7 videos Bill told us about is here.
A very big thank you is deserved by Justas

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7679.new;topicseen#new

The inventer destroys his work after each episode, he wants to emergrate someware safe to continue it

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on June 29, 2009, 09:21:42 AM

electricme said:

Quote
Aerial end connects >>--------[bolt head 1] [Bolt head 2] [Bolt head 3]------wire to earth
| wire to circuit connects here |
| |
| circuit -----
---
-
Quote
@electricme,
You're using the bolt heads as spark gaps, yes?
Questions,
1) They need to be tuned as to precise distance, right? This will require an adjustable means to affect this.
2) The FCC, if you're an American; the local government communication authorities if you're not, will be all over you for transmitting harmonics to your antenna through back EMF up the line. It'll cause static over wide stretches of the radio spectrum. Might be a good idea to surround the spark gap with a Faraday cage, yes?

--Lee

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 29, 2009, 10:07:27 AM

Quote from: xee2 on June 29, 2009, 02:57:49 AM
Low battery voltage tests on 3.38" toroid with 100 ohm base resistor.

Thank you xee2,

I am sorry to be a pest, but how many hours was that?
Were those listed items hourly checks?

Thank you for doing this. It was important to me.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 29, 2009, 10:16:43 AM

Quote from: altrez on June 29, 2009, 07:52:20 AM
@jeanna

Hows things going with your biggo? Have you made it past 6 hours of light yet?

Hi Altrez,

No, I haven't made it TO 6 hours yet.
5 1/4 is the maximum so far.
I made what looked like a mistake and put 2, 47uF 100v caps in series across the battery.
Later I found out that this was 47uF 200 volts not 100uF 50v.
But when I 'corrected' my mistake, the light only went on for 4 + hours. I think it is curious. Have you lit a fluoro tube for longer?
Did you resort to diodes or a full bridge like stprue to make it work?

Do you still have your big one set up with multiple secondaries?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 29, 2009, 10:41:58 AM

@XEE2

yes indeed i do love your design i have built it useing a small tranisistor .. ;D

i have improvements to it .... but some time when i get there ...

for now anyone herd about the telefone.. power supply tpu ....

lol

round here when the power goes off most fone lines have some free juice running through them ....

a friend said something like 70 volts.. hummmmmm

might just work well with the last tpu i posted wich is almost done.. and as built can be hooked up as a mk1 jt or 2 jts or what ever you choose it is a darn complex device...

;D

ist!

http://www.projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=15007

http://www.wonderhowto.com/how-to/video/how-to-get-free-electricity-from-a-phone-jack-127041/

now if your paying for your fone .... then i guess you PAY 4 IT EH!!!!! 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 29, 2009, 02:56:23 PM

Ok I noticed something today!

You don't need 400v to light a ccfl!!! It look to be around 370-380vdc but check out this other info.

On my biggo coil you have seen many setups that vary the output from 344 to over 900. In the next pic's I will you you what looks to me like empty voltage, kind of. When I pull the cap out the ccfl gets a little brighter but my dmm reads lower voltage. With the cap in it's brighter at higher voltage voltage but my dmm reads higher voltage! Not in it's like 20v out it's like 160v. Can anyone explain this?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 29, 2009, 03:06:33 PM

Pic's...I hope there in order!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 29, 2009, 03:08:02 PM

SH?tT there not in order but you can see what I'm getting at.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 29, 2009, 03:44:19 PM

@ altrez

Quote from: altrez on June 29, 2009, 07:52:20 AM
@xee2

Nice and simple circuit you have there I am sure it would light a CFL for more then 12 hours. Could you try lighting a larger tube to see if it will light for the same amount of time?

-Altrez

My experience is that if the 4 watt tube lights so will a 20 watt tube. Jeanna said she found the larger tubes easier to light.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 29, 2009, 03:52:43 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on June 29, 2009, 10:07:27 AM
I am sorry to be a pest, but how many hours was that?
Were those listed items hourly checks?

I do not have much experience testing with low battery voltages, but it seems that once the voltage drops to 0.90 volts, the battery will be dead in less than one hour. Therefore it does not seem reasonable to worry about making the circuit work at voltages lower than 0.9 volts.

The last set of data was taken with dead battery. I let it sit for a while and recover then it would drop back down in a minute or two. I did this several times taken the data and photos when it droped to various voltages.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 29, 2009, 04:03:20 PM

Thanks xee2,
I must be asking such a simple silly question that it is hard to answer.

I get this information about the battery, and I thank you for it, because it is the important information.
It is more important than how many hours your particular light was lit.
But, in fact that was my last question.
How many hours did the light stay lit with the big toroid with the 2T,10T,and 80 turns secondary?

@stprue,
I was seeing something like this too, where the voltage on the meter went down but the light across the same leads got brighter. I too, would like to know more about how this happens.

Thanks for asking it.

I have a question about the chip etc you are using.

I see a connector going from the upper sides of the transistor/chip into the battery rail which is also where the black and red wires that light the light appear to be coming out.

Can you tell me what those connections are?
Which color clips are connected to your secondary?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 29, 2009, 04:16:48 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 29, 2009, 04:03:20 PM
Thanks xee2,
I must be asking such a simple silly question that it is hard to answer.

I get this information about the battery, and I thank you for it, because it is the important information.
It is more important than how many hours your particular light was lit.
But, in fact that was my last question.
How many hours did the light stay lit with the big toroid with the 2T,10T,and 80 turns secondary?

@stprue,
I was seeing something like this too, where the voltage on the meter went down but the light across the same leads got brighter. I too, would like to know more about how this happens.

Thanks for asking it.

I have a question about the chip etc you are using.

I see a connector going from the upper sides of the transistor/chip into the battery rail which is also where the black and red wires that light the light appear to be coming out.

Can you tell me what those connections are?
Which color clips are connected to your secondary?

thank you,

jeanna

If you are talking about the white thing, it's a cap...If you are talking about the black thing it's the bridge rectifier 1amp@1000volts and really small!

My biggo to me anyways has a primary no secondary if you are talking about the collector coil and base coil let me know!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 29, 2009, 04:38:58 PM

@ Jeanna

I need to share something with you I think we could make a hybrid coils hazens/MK When I was winding my last MK coil I noticed that if messed up the last turn and a half..crap for voltage...I looked at it fixed it and boom back up to where it was before. I have a feeling that it is possible to wind a coil like the simple Hazens1 design but the starting and finishing turns would need to have an MK twist involved. I have not tested this idea because I have run out of wire! and I need help by other minds do to all the possible windings possibilities.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 29, 2009, 04:44:55 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on June 29, 2009, 04:03:20 PM
Thanks xee2,
I must be asking such a simple silly question that it is hard to answer.

I get this information about the battery, and I thank you for it, because it is the important information.
It is more important than how many hours your particular light was lit.
But, in fact that was my last question.
How many hours did the light stay lit with the big toroid with the 2T,10T,and 80 turns secondary?

The only tests I did on the 3.38" toroid were the low vlotage tests and the tube was only lit for a few minutes at a time while I was taking the data.

Have you duplicated the 2B-10C-80P 3.38" toroid? It would take you less than an hour. You do not even have to count the pickup coil turns. The pickup coil is 17 feet of wire total with one foot at each end for leads. That will give you close to 80 turns. I thought that you had done this but now I am not sure.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 29, 2009, 04:59:27 PM

@ jeanna

If your want to run a fluorescent tube for a long time I would suggest using a lot of turns on the pickup coil so that you will be able to generate the 400 volts needed to light the tube with a lower battery drain. There may also be other ways to control battery drain, such as using base capacitor, but this is an areal I have not investigated for tubes.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 29, 2009, 05:11:29 PM

Quote from: stprue on June 29, 2009, 04:16:48 PM
If you are talking about the white thing, it's a cap...If you are talking about the black thing it's the bridge rectifier 1amp@1000volts and really small!

My biggo to me anyways has a primary no secondary if you are talking about the collector coil and base coil let me know!

I was talking about the black thing... the bridge. OK so you are using a full bridge for this.

Your biggo primary is the hazens style stuff.
The MK1 turns which I believe are what is filling the rest of your toroid is the secondary(pick-up) coil.

So, are you not connecting anything to the wire that covers the entire toroid? (the one that I am calling the secondary and MK calls the pick up?

I think it is really important to get the terms straight in the beginning. It saves misunderstanding later.

jeanna
edit
Are you saying that the whole gold part is collector coil and emitter coil?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 29, 2009, 05:18:01 PM

Quote from: xee2 on June 29, 2009, 04:59:27 PM
@ jeanna

If you want to run a fluorescent tube for a long time I would suggest using a lot of turns on the pickup coil so that you will be able to generate the 400 volts needed to light the tube with a lower battery drain.

Yes,
That is what I thought and why I asked you to time it and tell me how long the thing is useful to a human being who would like to see something during the dark hours. Just a practical question, not a scientific one.

I made a coil which produces 450 volts and lights a tube for 4 to 5 1/4 hours.

I thought you were telling me you had made one that could run for 10-20 hours and I wanted to actually see this and not back into it, as well, I wanted to know how it was made. Most of this was answered except the how-long-does-it-light-a-light question.

Thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 29, 2009, 05:38:04 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on June 29, 2009, 05:18:01 PM
Yes,
That is what I thought and why I asked you to time it and tell me how long the thing is useful to a human being who would like to see something during the dark hours. Just a practical question, not a scientific one.

I made a coil which produces 450 volts and lights a tube for 4 to 5 1/4 hours.

I thought you were telling me you had made one that could run for 10-20 hours and I wanted to actually see this and not back into it, as well, I wanted to know how it was made. Most of this was answered except the how-long-does-it-light-a-light question.

Thanks,

jeanna

The only test I did to see how long a fluorescent tube could be lit was the test I did for you using the 2" toroid. That test ran 12 hours on a half dead battery. Sitting and watching tubes is not something I have an interest in doing. And I do not understand what you are asking me to do. If you want me to repeat a test you have done please post the circuit with your results and explain what you want me to do. I thought you wanted me to demonstrate that a tube could be lit for 12 to 20 hours and I think I have done that.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 29, 2009, 05:38:53 PM

i built this unit but on my scope i can only mesure 165v peek to peek

2 10 80 but ... i think it is because i only had a 1 " ring ... but it does light a 120v 7w night light led designed to run from mains ...

i did not use any diodes .. running with 300 ohm base resistance .. so im sure if i tune in the resistance my voltage will climb and draw will drop ...

but dont think it will give me the 450 i need .. for a cfl so i will build another the same but 160 turns

see what that does ..

got the dual jt wound ...

ist!

plus what if you tap the colpase from the jt coils ... and feed it into the secondary ... this i have not tryed .. but it seams to me the colpase will be additive from the rotation like put a diode on the transistor where the led would go on a normal jt and connect it to the collector or secondary or out put coil ... what ever you all want to call it ...

i may try this after the next coil and it will be a sloppy one ... lol 80 turns on a 1" neat and tidy was a pain in the a$$ lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 29, 2009, 05:40:27 PM

I have a question

Is the first schematic the right way to do a tank ?

The second schematic is the way I have been doing it

I am working on another drawing ...... showing another way

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 29, 2009, 05:42:52 PM

Quote from: xee2 on June 29, 2009, 04:44:55 PM
@ jeanna

The only tests I did on the 3.38" toroid were the low voltage tests and the tube was only lit for a few minutes at a time while I was taking the data.

What was making the battery run down in between tests?

QuoteHave you duplicated the 2B-10C-80P 3.38" toroid? It would take you less than an hour. You do not even have to count the pickup coil turns. The pickup coil is 17 feet of wire total with one foot at each end for leads. That will give you close to 80 turns. I thought that you had done this but now I am not sure.

Not yet, and here is why not.

I wanted you to prove to me that your 2T,10T,80T bigboy would do what Theory said it could.
As far as I can tell, you still have not done that.
If you had just put a freshly recharged NiMH AA into the circuit and run the thing until the light went out and told me the amount of time, my question would be answered.

It seems every time I make something my results are less strong or less long than others say theirs are.
But when I push it, many times it turns out that I am the only one who actually did the whole test.

It was for this reason I wanted someone else to do the whole thing and report all the results the way I do. Then we wouldn't be talking about how I can improve my results, but I could compare them for myself, and then I could see how it went.

Now, you made a comment last week that was... you had never seen a case where someone made an exact copy of a circuit and it did not behave the same way. So, I ask a lot of questions.
My exact copies are not always exact.

I may be the only one here who has run a battery down while using a joule thief secondary to light a fluoro tube.
I am still the only one who has done that with the fuji circuit. So, all the theory does is get you started.
The proof of the pudding is in the eating, as my grandmother would say.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 29, 2009, 06:02:53 PM

@ resonanceman

Quote from: resonanceman on June 29, 2009, 05:40:27 PM
I have a question

Is the first schematic the right way to do a tank ?

The second schematic is the way I have been doing it

I am working on another drawing ...... showing another way

gary

People have done both. I have always used the approach in your second circuit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 29, 2009, 06:19:44 PM

@ ist

Quote from: innovation_station on June 29, 2009, 05:38:53 PM
i built this unit but on my scope i can only mesure 165v peek to peek

I posted the circuit because all parts for it are available by mail and it is easy to make. I had no idea how it would work with other toroids. But, from your report it seems to not work as well with small toroids. Thanks for sharing your results.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 29, 2009, 06:27:59 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on June 29, 2009, 05:42:52 PM
What was making the battery run down in between tests?

The battery was running down during the tests because the circuit was draining power from it. In between the tests the battery was allowed to sit with no connection and it recovered some of its voltage because batteries do that sometimes.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 29, 2009, 06:30:32 PM

well i hope to improve the out put of it

i was kind of thinking 3 wire picup up or output winding useing 2 of the 3 for a mk2 style picup and 1 for jt flyback recovery/transformer action the fly back should be transfered via the other 2 wires in the pickup ...

2 the load ...

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 29, 2009, 06:31:55 PM

[@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on June 29, 2009, 05:42:52 PM
I wanted you to prove to me that your 2T,10T,80T bigboy would do what Theory said it could.

??? What theory? What are you expecting it to do?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 29, 2009, 06:35:08 PM

Quote from: xee2 on June 29, 2009, 06:02:53 PM
@ resonanceman

People have done both. I have always used the approach in your second circuit.

Thanks Xee

I am putting my modified tank circuit here

I am working on adding more parts to show the whole circuit

I removed the original JT LED because it goes out when the blue cap is added

I also added a secondary because that is the way this circuit should be used

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 29, 2009, 07:05:19 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on June 29, 2009, 05:42:52 PM
If you had just put a freshly recharged NiMH AA into the circuit and run the thing until the light went out and told me the amount of time, my question would be answered.

I do not understand why you want me to do this. But I will. However, since I do not like watching tubes, please make sure I understand what you want done. My understanding is you want me to run the following circuit using a fully charged battery and see how long it will run before the tube turns off. Is that correct? Or do you want me to use an AA battery?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 29, 2009, 07:45:52 PM

@jeanna

The two area for improvement on the cfl time are as followed .

First the higher numbers of turns on the pickup coil also means more voltage therefore having a high enough voltage longer considering battery drop.

Also now that you know the good freq for the toroid , making that happen with a 1k base resistor would help , a tank circuit for toroid specific freq.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 29, 2009, 08:05:35 PM

Quote from: xee2 on June 29, 2009, 07:05:19 PM
@ jeanna

I do not understand why you want me to do this. But I will. However, since I do not like watching tubes, please make sure I understand what you want done. My understanding is you want me to run the following circuit using a fully charged AA battery and see how long it will run before the tube turns off. Is that correct?

Yes, exactly.
I also want to know what voltage is in the battery on start (fully charged) and voltage when the light goes off.

I put mine in a corner and made a note of when I connected it up. Then when the light was out I made a note of what time it was and how much voltage was still in the battery.

I don't think it matters if you miss a few minutes, but since the transistor will continue to drain the battery after the light goes out, I checked by glancing at the light every 15 minutes.

thank you,

jeanna

OK concisely:

1-measure fully charged AA battery.
2-Make note of the time.
3-Turn light on using 2T,10T,80T toroid in its circuit and put it out of the way but still within sight.
4-When light is off:
4a- make note of time
4b-measure voltage remaining in the battery.
5-report above information.

thank you.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 29, 2009, 08:22:42 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 29, 2009, 07:45:52 PM
First the higher numbers of turns on the pickup coil also means more voltage therefore having a high enough voltage longer considering battery drop.

Also now that you know the good freq for the toroid , making that happen with a 1k base resistor would help , a tank circuit for toroid specific freq.

I am not completely sure so please let me repeat back to you what I think you are suggesting.

1- Are you suggesting that I rewind this adding more turns?
2- Are you suggesting that I try to achieve this using the same toroid and everything as it is, but change the base resistor and add a cap?

I was only able to get it to light by adding a cap at the base resistor, so I already did make a tank. So, you are suggesting that a different cap will let this circuit oscillate at the same 5.26KHz and 450v but with around 1k ohm instead of 90ohm ?

If that is true, I need some help to get close enough.
I am using 100pF and 90 ohm at 5.26KHz.
I have no clue how to move that to 1k ohm.
I have seen the equations, but I have no experience moving the pieces around.

Thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 29, 2009, 08:24:31 PM

@the Big m in ok

Quote from: the_big_m_in_ok on June 29, 2009, 09:21:42 AM
-
Quote
@electricme,
You're using the bolt heads as spark gaps, yes?
Questions,
1) They need to be tuned as to precise distance, right? This will require an adjustable means to affect this.
2) The FCC, if you're an American; the local government communication authorities if you're not, will be all over you for transmitting harmonics to your antenna through back EMF up the line. It'll cause static over wide stretches of the radio spectrum. Might be a good idea to surround the spark gap with a Faraday cage, yes?

--Lee

@ Lee,
Take a look at the http address, I posted on P799 about midway down the page, this PDF will explain it to you better than I ever could.

Using Head bolts as spark gaps? YES, if you make them to move in and out horozontally, then you could have much finer control of the circuit.
Get a steel small bolt, round off the head in a grinder or a lathe.
Drill a hole up in the middle of the bolt, threaded end. Glue a plastic rod about 6" long into the hole you just drilled.
Get 2 seperate brass nuts, screw them onto the bolt threads, then solder a thin shim plate to both nuts and drill mounting holes through the shim.
Screw the bolt n nut assembly to a piece of wood.
Nopw you can adjust the gap while it is running and not get zapped lol.

I'm in Australia, outback in nowhere, no FCC here lol but we got the equilivant mob to keep an eye on us.
You are right, make a faraday cage, put it over the lot, that fixes the problem.

Just spoke to Bill, "hi bill", we had a goood chat, about the 7 videos, bounced a few ideas off each other.
One thing we havennt done with the JT is to "earth" one side of it, then see what occurs.
Another thing we spoke about, ther difficulty of fireing up the fluro tubes, what say someone put a battery accross the filliament in the fluro tube while the JT is running, then take the wire from the battery off the fluro and see what happens. Just an idea.

I gotta run away now, buy the last of the cheep petrol and get a ticket in the 90million $ lottery to be drawn tonight in this neck of the woods.

hooroo
jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 29, 2009, 08:35:24 PM

Here is a circuit that I have set up now

This circuit started with a battery voltage of 1.246V ( AA )
The output across the LED array was 51.38V
This is a 90 LED array with the electronics intact so it was running at about half power . ( The package said that this was 5 watts and would replace a 45 watt flood light )

The current from the battery was .16A

After running for 2 hours the battery voltage was 1.243V
The output voltage was 51.40 V

In the drawing the coils on the right are for flyback/feedback
The green wires are for the flyback ( BEMF )
The purple wires are for feedback.

The top 2 coils are what I call splitters
They are 1 to 1 coils each of these coils is wound bifilar with 2 full spools of #22 radio shack wire

The bottom coil is a LM1 So far the primary of the LM1 is not used but it could be connected to the Jesus Charger in the same way as the other 2 coils

This circuit seemed to go into self charge mode when I lowered the battery current to .11A I did not watch it to make sure it kept charging
With 2 or 3 more coils this circuit should be self charging at .16A

The black cap is currently 16uF
The blue cap is 10uF

The Original JT coil is a LM1
The transitor is 2n3055
The base resistor is a pot with a switch on it
The circuit becomes a very nice charger when the pot is disconnected

Tomorow I am planning on seeing what this circuit can do with a MOT and a CFL

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 29, 2009, 08:36:09 PM

well i made the second unit 2 10 160 turns ... slopply .... didnt seem to matter

so on my scope im up to 250 v and the wave is cleaning up im useing 200 ohm resistance ..

i did not try to tune it by freq yet .. i changed to 28 ga magnet wire in the second unit and fone wire as jt coils

so i will build another

2 10 and 320 and see where this goes ;D

kinda reminds me of slayers jt's

ist!

thease are 1 " rings and only 1 wire picup in only 1 drirrection of winding

btw when i hook up the scope i can see sparks on this unit lol it is running on a aaa almost dead and a 3904

got the 320 turn unit all wound testing on scope ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 29, 2009, 08:54:47 PM

@jeanna

I am not suggesting to modify your toroid, i am just stating issues that i see for a near future if we want the improve on cfl work time.

There are many ways to improve , and many ways of doing it , it could be in the coil design , resonant tank ( you can get the same freq different values , Some may be more appropriate then other regarding consumption .

Its a fine tuning art , i always believe that if you can improve there is on harm in rewinding a toroid , but are we taking about the mk / hazen / sorry i don't remember the credit goes where . The one with the jt on one side and 2 mk coil , i don't think the mk coil work good with the jt coil on one side , so i guess that toroid could be improved , wire can be rewound and recycled , nothing lost here , plus gain in knowledge . My mk design is not only the pickup coil but also the jt coil at 180 , they are made to work together .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 29, 2009, 09:36:41 PM

done but still not enough at 200 ohm resistance i have 350v with 320 turns almost perfect sine wave...

getting there ... agin untuned and on a 1" ring ill take a few pics sometime tonight ...

ist!

no diodes just the 3904 and 2 100 ohm resistors ..

i want a 1" hand wound that lights a cfl from 1 aaa battery ...

ok im winding 1 more 1" with 480 turns ... i hope i get it high enough in voltage now with out tuneing it ... cuz when i match the resistance voltage should climb right up

and after i get the cfl to light i have some cold cathode lumenssance rods to light but they take much more voltage wize .. the unit i have here was sent to me .. and it uses npn and pnp and the spikes are up into 1500 v ... but it also uses 9v 300ma to operate ....

this unit on a aaa charged by solar has a MARKET!! ;) ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 29, 2009, 09:58:27 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on June 29, 2009, 09:36:41 PM
done but still not enough at 200 ohm resistance i have 350v with 320 turns almost perfect sine wave...

very nice!

Quoteno diodes just the 3904 and 2 100 ohm resistors ..

YEAY! 8)

Quotei want a 1" hand wound that lights a cfl from 1 aaa battery ...

Oh yes, please go for it.

I am looking forward to scope pics if possible too.
Nice, ist.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 29, 2009, 10:42:51 PM

sorry jeanna i have not been of more help lately .....

lot on my mind .. but i got luckey enough to see my children this past weekend and i guess they restored some of my creative engeries ...

i really apreacieate everyones work round here and you have done just a wonderfull job!!

so now i feel like building ... loooooook out ;) :D ;D 8)

i took 2 or 3 pics of the units i have been working on and a scope shoot

10v per div and the probe is on the 10 x setting my mesurements are peek to peek .... and im new to reading the scope properly ... so i probally am not ... not skills in that department ... :(

but all is well got the best team right here .......

william!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 30, 2009, 12:10:25 AM

ok same set up as b4 ...

new coil 2 10 480 28ga 1" ring ... out of room can not add more 28ga... that is bout max!!! lol

but wave is much more TRUE SINE .... im topping bout 420V ;D ;D

from same aaa battery ill post a scope shot ...

a coil pic......

it looks a lil deformed but the output is to my likeing agin still 200 ohm..

ist!

the scope is 10v/d probe 10 x ;D might try it on a bulb now ...

ps STOP CHANGEING MY WORDS.... :D

that seams as close as i can tune it for what i have on hand ... 200 ohm 420 there bouts ...

eather way of 200 ohm it drops a bit ... as low as 320 at 1k and 380 at 100ohm

ill try a bulb now

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 30, 2009, 12:37:48 AM

@ ist

:o Those are fantastic sine waves. I do not think I am getting those on my coils, but without a scope I can not be sure.

400 volts should be enough to light a fluorescent tube. Hmmm... maybe not, If you rectify the sine wave it will no longer be 400 volts. The tubes may need 400 volts between the ends to light. The sine wave will only give 200 volts between ends. Should be interesting to see what happens. You may need to use gadgetmall's voltage doubler (I call it a peak to peak rectifier).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 30, 2009, 12:49:58 AM

@ist

Try it with a 2n2222 or 2n3055 , and a pot to tune you got more then 400 v there bros.

Mark

Sin wave lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 30, 2009, 12:59:36 AM

nope still wont lite the darn thing .....

might be the bulb ..

thankx xee2

ist!

i think im out of good 3055 but i might have a 2222 dont have any more fine tune pots eather ....

but the rectifier does seam like a good fix ... ;D

but i will try to find something to tune it better ....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 30, 2009, 01:05:58 AM

@ist

Its the transistor a 3409 don't usually light a cfl.

EDIT even in the fuji circuit , TRY any old pot you got ...

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 30, 2009, 01:15:18 AM

i used the 2222 and it only lits brightly if i hold the bulb ..

i used a 4401 same result yes it does lite without touching it but it is sooo dull still no diodes

might just be a freq thing now ...

ist

but yes mark the 3904 did not do a thing for it

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 30, 2009, 01:19:07 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on June 30, 2009, 01:15:18 AM
i used the 2222 and it only lits brightly if i hold the bulb ..

i used a 4401 same result yes it does lite without touching it but it is sooo dull still no diodes

might just be a freq thing now ...

ist

but yes mark the 3904 did not do a thing for it

It look like its searching for a ground , try a neo , or one wire lighting grounding the other end of the tube.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 30, 2009, 01:40:43 AM

@ jeanna

Quote from: xee2 on June 29, 2009, 04:59:27 PM
@ jeanna

If your want to run a fluorescent tube for a long time I would suggest using a lot of turns on the pickup coil so that you will be able to generate the 400 volts needed to light the tube with a lower battery drain.

I think Mk1 is making the same point.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 30, 2009, 01:41:48 AM

by changeing the resistor with a 1 k pot and useing a 2222 i got it in perfect sine wave at 500 v peek to peek still not enough diode time ?

but even if it dont lit the cfl i was thinking of useing some inductors from the cfl curcuits ... 2 of them and wind a 3 or 4 turn primary on them they have thousands of turns on a feroite square rod
... and up the 250 v half wave to what ever i get from the inductors as a transformer ..

might that work try it tommorow ...

to late tonight

peace !

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 30, 2009, 01:43:41 AM

Quote from: xee2 on June 30, 2009, 01:40:43 AM
@ jeanna

I think Mk1 is making the same point.

Hi xee you managed to understand what i said . Cool ;D

Keep the good work !!!!!!!!! thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 30, 2009, 01:52:41 AM

@ ist

Quote from: xee2 on June 30, 2009, 12:37:48 AM
@ ist

400 volts should be enough to light a fluorescent tube. Hmmm... maybe not, If you rectify the sine wave it will no longer be 400 volts. The tubes may need 400 volts between the ends to light. The sine wave will only give 200 volts between ends. Should be interesting to see what happens. You may need to use gadgetmall's voltage doubler (I call it a peak to peak rectifier).

It looks like you need the voltage doubler.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 30, 2009, 02:02:09 AM

@ jeanna,

Test started at 11 PM. The battery has a 2000 mAh rating and the circuit battery drain is starting at 230 mA, so the battery should go dead in about 9 hours (about 8 AM tommorrow morning). I hope I wake up in time.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 30, 2009, 04:30:27 AM

@Xee and Jeanna,
Interresting test you have here.

Quote from: xee2 on June 30, 2009, 02:02:09 AM
@ jeanna,

Test started at 11 PM. The battery has a 2000 mAh rating and the circuit battery drain is starting at 230 mA, so the battery should go dead in about 9 hours (about 8 AM tommorrow morning). I hope I wake up in time.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 30, 2009, 05:28:27 AM

Jim:

Crikey, what are you doing up at this time of night? Oh yes, I forgot the time difference.

Seriously though, I am happy to see that you are ok and all is well. Stay warm down there. I should send you some heat from here...we have plenty it seems.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 30, 2009, 10:07:58 AM

ok back at it .... im almost there ...

im gonna wind another ... ;D

same core material as all others .. 1" ring now im going to 30 ga wire .. and i will do

2 10 640

with the same components the 1k pot and the 2222 transistor and same aaa

see how it goes ...

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 30, 2009, 10:18:06 AM

@ ist

Quote from: innovation_station on June 30, 2009, 10:07:58 AM
ok back at it .... im almost there ...

im gonna wind another ... ;D

same core material as all others .. 1" ring now im going to 30 ga wire .. and i will do

2 10 640

with the same components the 1k pot and the 2222 transistor and same aaa

see how it goes ...

ist!

xee2 hypothesise: The pick up coil turns must be increased by 4 to double the output voltage.

I think that is what my results are showing.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 30, 2009, 10:28:15 AM

Quote from: jeanna on June 29, 2009, 05:11:29 PM
I was talking about the black thing... the bridge. OK so you are using a full bridge for this.

Your biggo primary is the hazens style stuff.
The MK1 turns which I believe are what is filling the rest of your toroid is the secondary(pick-up) coil.

So, are you not connecting anything to the wire that covers the entire toroid? (the one that I am calling the secondary and MK calls the pick up?

I think it is really important to get the terms straight in the beginning. It saves misunderstanding later.

jeanna
edit
Are you saying that the whole gold part is collector coil and emitter coil?

It is wound Hazen1 style all the way. The large gold turns are what I call the primary and goes into the ~~ on the bridge, and the smaller turns I call the base and collector turns because thats what I connect them too, the other two ends of the emmiter and collector go the the ++ on the output. My emmiter on the transistor goes to the negative on the output.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 30, 2009, 10:58:12 AM

Quote from: xee2 on June 30, 2009, 01:52:41 AM
@ ist

It looks like you need the voltage doubler.

Xee can you post some close up's of your voltage doubler/JT set up again?

Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 30, 2009, 11:15:39 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on June 30, 2009, 10:07:58 AM
ok back at it .... im almost there ...

im gonna wind another ... ;D

same core material as all others .. 1" ring now im going to 30 ga wire .. and i will do

2 10 640

with the same components the 1k pot and the 2222 transistor and same aaa

see how it goes ...

ist!

640 wow that will take some time, let me know what voltage you get from that one

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 30, 2009, 11:31:08 AM

Quote from: stprue on June 30, 2009, 11:15:39 AM
640 wow that will take some time, let me know what voltage you get from that one

;D naw

im almost done it 400 turns 240 more no sweat ... lol

but i got it now bros .... ;D ;D ;D ;D

we will use a 3/8 nano jt to boost the power up to the 1" rings... :P

then we will lite 10 floros ... lol

;)

ist

ill post pics and scope shots soon as i finish it... :)

its all wound now ... 8) testing it out :)

ok looking better bout 700v peek to peek maybe more never really tuned it yet

sine wave still fairly clean and uniform in shape ...

ill post scope shots soon here the coils i have been testing all slopply wound... :D

ooops miss read the scope it is 620 peek to peek ..tuned to highest output wave ...

some scope pics ... notice my second my finger slipped on the battery 2 freqs... maybe :D

my scope is set to 100v per div

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 30, 2009, 12:39:39 PM

@ jeanna

Here are test results. I think I have said at least 3 times that this is not a good choice of circuits if you want to maximize time tube stays on so I do not understand why you wanted me to do this. The tube was still fairly bright at 9 hours (1.06 volts) and stayed fairly bright until about 0.8 volts. After that it started to dim quickly and was just glowing at 0.66 volts and went out at 0.64 volts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 30, 2009, 12:52:36 PM

btw it still will not lite the cfl worth crap ....

only if i hold it ..

so ill work at that later .. i found a really thin ring magnet from a small disk drive motor or a vcr motor im not sure ... but im a wind it like a mk2 with 1000 each side ... see what that will do .. i will only have picup windings all 1 dirrection on this unit

ideas?

ist!

well i broke the ring getting it out ... wonder if it will still work ... it is magnetic tape ... ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 30, 2009, 12:59:53 PM

@ist

I got 24 bright led for 2 buck at rama .....

I also have to say that i get 850 volts dc from 80 turns , on my one inch toroid.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 30, 2009, 01:03:40 PM

@ stprue

Quote from: stprue on June 30, 2009, 10:58:12 AM
Xee can you post some close up's of your voltage doubler/JT set up again?

Thanks

I do not have any photos. Sorry. Perhaps gadgetmall does.

EDIT: I will make a drawing.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 30, 2009, 01:08:17 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on June 29, 2009, 08:35:24 PM

Tomorow I am planning on seeing what this circuit can do with a MOT and a CFL

Setting the caps in the same configuration with a MOT JT did not work at all .
It gave a large increase in output with a LM but it has a large decrease with the MOT

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 30, 2009, 01:10:15 PM

ill go have a look ... thanks mark

here is a pic of the ring ... i might just try a microwave magnet tho and use 1 of those ac rings to drive it .... sheesh lots to do

;D

i wouldnt have it any other way tho ...

i also have thos bobbins from the sewing machine unit all ready wound .. looks like i can slide them right on the ring might speed up my tests ....

;D

ist

bobbins dont fit close but not close enough .... :( so ill wind something small see what is the result!

nope does not look good ... done done on to the next one ...

mk2 hv 80 turn .... 1" what kind of toroide did you use mark ?

what colour i have a few ill likely just use the black i found 5 or 6 turns to work well for those ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 30, 2009, 01:13:21 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 30, 2009, 12:59:53 PM
@ist

I got 24 bright led for 2 buck at rama .....

I also have to say that i get 850 volts dc from 80 turns , on my one inch toroid.

Mark

80 turns total or 80up then 80 down making 160total?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 30, 2009, 01:16:18 PM

@stprue

On the mk hv there is 80 turns per secondaries , on this one i am not going up and down.
It may be the reason for its success...

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 30, 2009, 01:18:24 PM

Quote from: xee2 on June 30, 2009, 01:03:40 PM
@ stprue

I do not have any photos. Sorry. Perhaps gadgetmall does.

EDIT: I will make a drawing.

Ok thanks anyway. I have been wanting to try a voltage multiplier on my biggo but I'm to slow to figure it out for some reason!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 30, 2009, 01:20:40 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on June 30, 2009, 01:16:18 PM
@stprue

On the mk hv there is 80 turns per secondaries , on this one i am not going up and down.
It may be the reason for its success...

Mark

Ok I understand that. How many turns on the collector and base coils?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on June 30, 2009, 01:23:10 PM

@stprue

On mine i use 4/4 , but that works on my toroid , i don't know about yours ...

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 30, 2009, 02:03:31 PM

@ stprue

The first is how I think gadgetmall was doing it. The second is how I have been doing it. I am not sure which works best.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 30, 2009, 02:05:00 PM

@all

Cool site

http://www.rmcybernetics.com/shop/surplus-science-lab-equipment.htm?show=hv#A41

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 30, 2009, 02:07:44 PM

Quote from: xee2 on June 30, 2009, 12:39:39 PM
@ jeanna

Here are test results. I think I have said at least 3 times that this is not a good choice of circuits if you want to maximize time tube stays on so I do not understand why you wanted me to do this. The tube was still fairly bright at 9 hours (1.06 volts) and stayed fairly bright until about 0.8 volts. After that it started to dim quickly and was just glowing at 0.66 volts and went out at 0.64 volts.

I cannot imagine what you would think a good circuit would do, if you think this one is not good.

Mine stays on for 5 1/4 hours maximum.
Nobody here has done that test and reported it, except for me.

Thank you for actually doing this test.

I am now not the only person who has actually tried it out.

I wanted to see about the thin spikes.
at 80 turns you have very thin spikes and you not only got the light to turn on, but you got it to stay on for far longer than I did.
This means the thin ugly spikes are just fine for lighting lights.
It means the 'duty cycle' doesn't matter at all.

You don't know why I want to see someone else here making an effort to have a real light be able to light in a real time situation?
OK , so then I thank you even more for doing this and not getting why I think it is important.

BTW, you mentioned that you got it to start by touching one leg of the secondary to the neg of the battery.
Did you keep it there, or just touch it once?

And, the circuit you drew has an added 200uF battery cap.(up from 100uF) Did that help?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 30, 2009, 02:08:28 PM

Quote from: xee2 on June 30, 2009, 02:03:31 PM
@ stprue

Thank you kindly xee

I want the circuit digram maker you have! Was it free? TinyCad has very thin line and other stuff I don't like about it. Do you know of a better free app?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 30, 2009, 02:22:58 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on June 30, 2009, 12:52:36 PM
btw it still will not lite the cfl worth crap ....
only if i hold it ..

ideas?
ist!

Hi IST,

If it lights when you hold it, then it lights.

In the tesla lectures, he made the point that unlike previous circuits, the AC circuit did not need to ground in the usual way, but could be grounded by simply holding it, which is what you did, or

By grounding it to a piece of metal on a wall that was connected to the ground, or

the ground itself.

So, you are lighting the light.
Now see what you can connect it to that will make it stay on... like the ground or something connected to the ground.

I have tried this and not yet got it to work, myself.

I think living in a faraday cage may have more effects than I can overcome.

Anyway, it is great that you got the light to turn on. Did you try a magnet on the alligator clip that goes to one wire of the cfl? That is what got mine to be on so well, I could remove the magnet after the light was fully on.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 30, 2009, 02:41:30 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on June 30, 2009, 02:07:44 PM
BTW, you mentioned that you got it to start by touching one leg of the secondary to the neg of the battery.
Did you keep it there, or just touch it once?

And, the circuit you drew has an added 200uF battery cap.(up from 100uF) Did that help?

The circuit diagram has one side of pickup coil connected to negative of battery. That is the circuit I tested. I did not have to touch tube in order to turn it on. I like to use capacitors across batteries but I do not think it makes much difference.

Since you are happy with results, maybe you should duplicate circuit and see if you get same results. It would take you less than an hour to make the coil.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 30, 2009, 02:56:38 PM

[@ stprue

quote author=stprue link=topic=6123.msg188829#msg188829 date=1246385308]
I want the circuit digram maker you have! Was it free? TinyCad has very thin line and other stuff I don't like about it. Do you know of a better free app?
[/quote]

I use Serif DrawPlus. It is not free and it takes a bit of learning how to use.

EDIT: they use to have a free demo version but I do not know if they still do. Google serif and see.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 30, 2009, 03:00:09 PM

Quote from: xee2 on June 30, 2009, 02:41:30 PM
... I like to use capacitors across batteries but I do not think it makes much difference.

The only difference between my circuit and components that changed from 5 1/4 duration to 4 hour duration was the caps at the battery.
So, I think it does matter.

Quote... It would take you less than an hour to make the coil.

I might.
I am on to other things at the moment.
I got the circuit partly started and it will be a part of those other things, and I might do it now or later.

Thanks again.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on June 30, 2009, 03:58:35 PM

thank you mark i went and got4 of those ;D ;D

awesome find you know how lazzy i can be ... lol

thank you jeanna i will try those changes tonight

im building a solar light right now 48 leds 1 coil 1 aaa solar unit recharger

ill put it all togather

and take a pic when i finish it ... probally just use the mk2 coil style for this one .. but who knows they are less time consumeing to wind

back to it ..

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 30, 2009, 06:00:38 PM

@Jeanna

I just realized something...I remembered you were having trouble getting the 3055 to turn on! Was this a TIP3055 or a 2N3055?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 30, 2009, 06:08:40 PM

Quote from: stprue on June 30, 2009, 06:00:38 PM
@Jeanna

I just realized something...I remembered you were having trouble getting the 3055 to turn on! Was this a TIP3055 or a 2N3055?

I have 2 kinds
2N3055 - gift
2N3055HV - allelectronics

Why do you ask?

edit
Remember I AM using a secondary/pickup.
I have only used a secondary for turning on lights since I discovered it was possible, I think , on Jan 5th, maybe before.

The basic joule thief uses more juice from the battery to power everything. The secondary does something other than that. It is not free, but it is not straight juice either. The bjt is not straight juice as it uses back emf and C-E amplification, but the secondary is all bemf and no C-E amplification. It relies heavily on the switching speed of the transistor.

Most of my experiments have been to investigate what happens to the circuit and its energy requirements when using the secondary alone to make the lights go on. Later I am hoping more than lights, but that will only come with much understanding of all the above.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on June 30, 2009, 06:49:10 PM

@all

The serif free drawplus 4 is here:
http://ftp9.serif.com/FSSDownloadMirror/DrawPlus/4/Setup/FSS_DP40.exe

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 30, 2009, 07:31:07 PM

@ Jeanna:

The ones I sent you were 2N3055's. Just in case you were referring to them.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 30, 2009, 08:04:56 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 30, 2009, 06:08:40 PM
I have 2 kinds
2N3066 - gift
2N3055HV - allelectronics

Why do you ask?

edit
Remember I AM using a secondary/pickup.
I have only used a secondary for turning on lights since I discovered it was possible, I think , on Jan 5th, maybe before.

The basic joule thief uses more juice from the battery to power everything. The secondary does something other than that. It is not free, but it is not straight juice either. The bjt is not straight juice as it uses back emf and C-E amplification, but the secondary is all bemf and no C-E amplification. It relies heavily on the switching speed of the transistor.

Most of my experiments have been to investigate what happens to the circuit and its energy requirements when using the secondary alone to make the lights go on. Later I am hoping more than lights, but that will only come with much understanding of all the above.

jeanna

I just realised that there were multiple 3055's out there and maybe you are using something different then what other people are using. I wanted to help because I have had my best successes with 2N3055's!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 30, 2009, 08:07:14 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on June 30, 2009, 06:49:10 PM
@all

The serif free drawplus 4 is here:
http://ftp9.serif.com/FSSDownloadMirror/DrawPlus/4/Setup/FSS_DP40.exe

Jesus

I don't think this will work on a MAC! Thanks anyways!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 30, 2009, 08:08:13 PM

@Jeanna

I hope to finish my hybrid coil tonight ;D If not soon!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 30, 2009, 09:00:51 PM

Quote from: stprue on June 30, 2009, 08:08:13 PM
@Jeanna

I hope to finish my hybrid coil tonight ;D If not soon!!!

Yeay!

No, those things won't work on a mac.
I have a very old copy of elements2 which came with my tablet.
Jadaro uses dia which was written for linux. and may have a macX version.
google has a program for drawing too. and that is free.

If you already have a drawing program on your computer that you know how to use...and you want xee2's glyphs, make a screenshot (comm, shift, 4> marquee the selection) at the resolution you want, then crop (in preview, marquee the place then (comm, K) the part or the glyph you like , save it as ... something. so when you open it you can paste it in as a pic or whatever form works with the drawing program.

I compressed a lot of info here, please ask if this does not make sense.

(As a matter of fact, the scsi connection and software for the portable scope was probably not written for a mac either.)

Great going with your hybrid.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 30, 2009, 09:13:31 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 30, 2009, 07:31:07 PM
@ Jeanna:

The ones I sent you were 2N3055's. Just in case you were referring to them.

Bill

Thanks Bill. I made a typo and didn't catch it. That was the gift. I fixed it for the record.

jeanna

edit add,

I made a test today of the biggo with my 7 watt fluoro tube.
This went out sometime between 6 3/4 and 7 1/4 hours, so it went a lot lot longer than the 15 watt one I used before.

The dead voltage was 0.429v or after possibly as long as 30 minutes later than when the light turned off. Pretty low. This is too low for the health of a rechargeable. I am amazed. Anyway, a little closer to what xee2 finds possible for lighting a tube. I guess the amp draw on this at 90 ohm is pretty high.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on June 30, 2009, 09:45:13 PM

new air core direction.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on July 01, 2009, 06:29:06 AM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on June 30, 2009, 09:45:13 PM
new air core direction.

That is a very cool design! How well does it perform?

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Nikola Tesla on July 01, 2009, 07:13:33 AM

Does anybody have any idea about where these strange radiations come from?
What is their orgin??
Is it lightning?
Is it true that the brains of living creatures synchronize with this energy wave?

Does anybody know anything about it?

Nikola.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on July 01, 2009, 07:46:29 AM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on June 30, 2009, 09:45:13 PM
new air core direction.

Can you give us more information about your air coil configuration?
Is it that you are running it with a AA battery?

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on July 01, 2009, 08:39:34 AM

Nikola Tesla lisaid:

Quote
Does anybody have any idea about where these strange radiations come from? What is their orgin??

I hadn't read of 'strange radiations' coming from Joule Thief setups, only Testatika machines---and those aren't strange. They're high voltage ions emanating from atmospheric breakdown of molecules on the parts with highest electrical potential.

Quote
Is it lightning?

Tesla coils produce what looks like lighting, but that's predictable. When the potential is 5 million volts or higher, nitrogen molecules can transmute to radioactive oxygen isotope(s). Tesla figured this out. Unsafe to operate these coils at that voltage. Is that what you mean?

Quote
Is it true that the brains of living creatures synchronize with this energy wave? Does anybody know anything about it?

Conspiracy buffs may think so. Joule Thiefs and Tesla coils don't do that. Not even 50/60 Hz municipal or commercial electrical current available from a wall plug will do that.

--Lee
the_big_m_in_ok

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 01, 2009, 10:32:00 AM

Quote from: jeanna on June 30, 2009, 09:00:51 PM
Yeay!

No, those things won't work on a mac.
I have a very old copy of elements2 which came with my tablet.
Jadaro uses dia which was written for linux. and may have a macX version.
google has a program for drawing too. and that is free.

If you already have a drawing program on your computer that you know how to use...and you want xee2's glyphs, make a screenshot (comm, shift, 4> marquee the selection) at the resolution you want, then crop (in preview, marquee the place then (comm, K) the part or the glyph you like , save it as ... something. so when you open it you can paste it in as a pic or whatever form works with the drawing program.

I compressed a lot of info here, please ask if this does not make sense.

(As a matter of fact, the scsi connection and software for the portable scope was probably not written for a mac either.)

Great going with your hybrid.

jeanna

Thanks for the infos Jeanna

I will find the right one!

I will test it tonight, it's strange looking so let's see if it work at all.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 01, 2009, 10:34:55 AM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on June 30, 2009, 09:45:13 PM
new air core direction.

Did you make that yourself or buy it?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 01, 2009, 11:08:15 AM

@ MK1 @ Jeanna @ People that want precision tuning!

Here are some nice precision POT's

Good site and reasonably priced!

http://www.web-tronics.com/passive-electronic-components-potentiometers-precision-10-turn-potentiometers.html

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 01, 2009, 02:40:27 PM

@altrez
thanks! no performance data yet, it's just a mock up at the moment. i need to redo the primary and varnish the secondary.

@jesus
i plan to run it on as little voltage as possible and still light a ccfl. i am not sure it will even work using a jt as the oscillator section of the circuit, but i am curious to see if it will.
i am going to also wire it up as a traditional jt for some quick measurements once i get it tuned.

@stprue
i made it myself. the secondary form is a tube that used to hold candy (mini m&m's) about 5" tall. it took a hour or so to wind. the primary was wound on a film canister and then removed, but it needs to be redone.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 01, 2009, 02:48:49 PM

im haveing fun now ..

lol

insted of a ring i made a rod feroite unit ...

im lighting 24 leds plus i can scope as much as 120v so far and ..

it is tiny and damm sipmle to make ...

7 turn bifillar primary fone wire ... and 100 turn 28 ga ac winding sloppy overtop of it

dont have to be round ... lol ;)

ist

this is the. IST MINI. with a bit of work ill get it to lite a cfl ... it is about 5/8 of an inch long ...

it has a verry neat wave to it ... i can tune it to be pure sine output .. but the ringggie spike looks neat and works better .. 8)

ooopps just got done the bobbin style too ... i can put multi turn picups on here too or more or less for volts....

here is a few pics of the rod unit and a scope shot of it

scope is 20v/div ... this is wile powering the 24 leds ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 01, 2009, 03:09:44 PM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on July 01, 2009, 02:40:27 PM
@altrez
thanks! no performance data yet, it's just a mock up at the moment. i need to redo the primary and varnish the secondary.

@jesus
i plan to run it on as little voltage as possible and still light a ccfl. i am not sure it will even work using a jt as the oscillator section of the circuit, but i am curious to see if it will.
i am going to also wire it up as a traditional jt for some quick measurements once i get it tuned.

@stprue
i made it myself. the secondary form is a tube that used to hold candy (mini m&m's) about 5" tall. it took a hour or so to wind. the primary was wound on a film canister and then removed, but it needs to be redone.

Nice job! It looks good. Yesterday I was looking into info on teslas flat pancake coil! I want to build one of those!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 01, 2009, 03:17:28 PM

Quote from: stprue on July 01, 2009, 03:09:44 PM
Nice job! It looks good. Yesterday I was looking into info on teslas flat pancake coil! I want to build one of those!!!

thanks!
i plan on doing a more 'traditional' flat pancake for the primary coil, i have some copper tubing for it at the lake that i plan on grabbing over the 4th.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 01, 2009, 03:29:28 PM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on July 01, 2009, 03:17:28 PM
thanks!
i plan on doing a more 'traditional' flat pancake for the primary coil, i have some copper tubing for it at the lake that i plan on grabbing over the 4th.

If you have any construction info I would greatly appreciate it! I want to understand this tech to adapt to other things we are all working on.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 01, 2009, 03:38:22 PM

@Ist
Nice looking ring. I ve been looking at a few of those today too. And they were mostly not from neat windings either, but some were. I bet it doesn't matter much either way. (I love the blue ribbon look. Its a prize!)

@Wilby,
cool looking. Also, thanks for the link the other day. I have not found a cap that makes any difference yet, though. But the way the guy talks about inductor coils helps a lot.

==
And remember the flat pancake and the makezine way to wind a bifilar both have side by side wires with the impulses going the same way (not opposing each other), like tesla's pancake which is why I think they work sooo well.

I would like to see a full secondary pickup like that just to see. I thought the MK1 was that, but it is not. It is more like the stubblefield.

Happy july everybody,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 01, 2009, 05:31:13 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on July 01, 2009, 02:48:49 PM
im haveing fun now ..

lol

insted of a ring i made a rod feroite unit ...

im lighting 24 leds plus i can scope as much as 120v so far and ..

it is tiny and damm sipmle to make ...

7 turn bifillar primary fone wire ... and 100 turn 28 ga ac winding sloppy overtop of it

dont have to be round ... lol ;)

ist

this is the. IST MINI. with a bit of work ill get it to lite a cfl ... it is about 5/8 of an inch long ...

it has a verry neat wave to it ... i can tune it to be pure sine output .. but the ringggie spike looks neat and works better .. 8)

ooopps just got done the bobbin style too ... i can put multi turn picups on here too or more or less for volts....

here is a few pics of the rod unit and a scope shot of it

scope is 20v/div ... this is wile powering the 24 leds ..

IST

Your bobbin in the bottom picture may be the idea I have been looking for .

I need a way to make my " system " smaller .
I have a few inductors around wound on a bobbin like in your picture .

I think I will try winding a bifilar primary around the outside of them

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 01, 2009, 05:54:08 PM

@Jeanna

Hybrid coil does nothing special!

The pic shows 53 or something volts, and after messing with it I got a little more then 100. The goal was to make an coil different from MK's but have the same dual polarity(leds light either way) by x2ing the primary or pickup (thin wire). I have succeded in finding another way to build a JT of low results...Oh well back to winding the next idea ;)

P.S. The pickup is 1 wire only!!!!

P.P.S I noticed that I hear the resonation at the end points only, anybody else hear the same?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 01, 2009, 07:16:32 PM

here are a few pictures of the finished solar light 24 leds useing the bobbin unit ...

im shipping this unit tommorow

nice n bright

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 01, 2009, 08:21:51 PM

Quote from: stprue on July 01, 2009, 03:29:28 PM
If you have any construction info I would greatly appreciate it! I want to understand this tech to adapt to other things we are all working on.

here is some info on winding tesla primaries, pancake style. i know this isn't bifilar like you want to wind but it might give you some ideas.
http://www.tb3.com/tesla/hugecoil/primary/primary.html
http://www.capturedlightning.org/hot-streamer/exxos/room/mycoil.html

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 01, 2009, 08:24:47 PM

thanks jeanna, glad the link helped.

@resonanceman
very small bobbin cores can be used with good success. i have a jt using a bobbin core that is a bit smaller in diameter than a AAA battery and 1/4 the length. i have access to a good camera now so if you want a close up of it, give me a shout.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 01, 2009, 09:14:46 PM

Quote from: stprue on December 13, 1973, 11:35:24 AM

I have succeded in finding another way to build a JT of low results...Oh well back to winding the next idea ;)

;D
Ah yes, stprue

Your boneyard must look a lot like mine by now.

I am finding a use for them as plain inductors on the ac side of things. Maybe you will find a good use for yours too!

:D jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 01, 2009, 09:21:51 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on July 01, 2009, 05:31:13 PM

IST

Your bobbin in the bottom picture may be the idea I have been looking for .

I need a way to make my " system " smaller .
I have a few inductors around wound on a bobbin like in your picture .

I think I will try winding a bifilar primary around the outside of them

gary

Not bad for a first try

With the bobbin I used it took 11 winds ( bifiler ) before the JT LED lit up .
I added 2 more wraps just to make sure .
I used a twisted pair from a cat5 cable

I then wrapped 150 turns of green Radio Shack wire around it .

that gave me 51V
I had a flyback /feedback network set up for a LM ..... I connected it and got 57 V across the LED array ......about half of what I was getting with the LM ......but the frequency must be higher or something because the light is brighter .

I guess I am going to have to find some more of these bobbins

I did try wrapping a primary around the coil ...... not enough wraps to make any real voltage .......but to many wraps to be useful as part of the prinary .
I took off the original wire and just used the core

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 01, 2009, 09:51:12 PM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on July 01, 2009, 08:24:47 PM
thanks jeanna, glad the link helped.

@resonanceman
very small bobbin cores can be used with good success. i have a jt using a bobbin core that is a bit smaller in diameter than a AAA battery and 1/4 the length. i have access to a good camera now so if you want a close up of it, give me a shout.

WilbyInebriated

The bobbins I have are about 1/2 X 3/4 I think that is about as small as I would want to go
If I use magnet wire for the primary next time I should have a little more room for secondary . .....maybe I can get by with a couple less wrapps of the primary with mag wire .

I don;t think I will be taking many pictures until I get something soldered together .
I use alligator clip leads to connect everything together ....... It takes from 4 to 9 coils to get to a self charge state ..... I find that adding another coil often gives me between a half volt to 1 volt more ..... ( under load )
most of the time I use my LM coils or toroid JT coils ...... with these I usually connect both the primarys and the secondary for either flyback or feedback .
So ....... you can imagine how much of a mess it can be .....

I think my next try will be with a flyback transformer core .
I remember someone used one of these before .......
I am going to try to get primary secondary and hopefully one or 2 feedback coils all on there together .

after thinking about it a few minutes I am take it apart and try to wrap about 200 turns on both the rounded legs ........then I clip it back together and wind whatever I can on the square side ......

the last step is adding a MK2 primary ..... on the ends ..... I guess my first step should be to do a test and see how many winds it takes on each leg of the MK1 to make it work

gary

Edit

I did not try to tune it ........but I am guessing that 5 wraps each leg is about right
It lights up the JT LED at max resistance of my pot .......2.5k it starts to sing at .70 A The pitch drops low enough it is hard to hear at full power ...... 1.5A

Ooopps ....that is with 2 batterys

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 01, 2009, 09:58:12 PM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on July 01, 2009, 08:21:51 PM
http://www.tb3.com/tesla/

Hi Wilby,

On TB3 site at the bottom of that page, there is a list of measured inductances.
Is there a meter for measuring inductance?
or, even better, is there a way to measure it with a dmm?

she said, hopefully.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 01, 2009, 10:19:09 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 01, 2009, 09:58:12 PM
Hi Wilby,

On TB3 site at the bottom of that page, there is a list of measured inductances.
Is there a meter for measuring inductance?
or, even better, is there a way to measure it with a dmm?

she said, hopefully.

jeanna

measuring inductance or capacitance is difficult at best without an LCR meter.
not as far as i know of with a DMM (some can measure capacitance).

i like primary form on his mini tesla from that link. i hadn't noticed it before. thanks, i might do mine that way.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 01, 2009, 10:57:30 PM

heres my latest unit only for led lighting ... works awesome ...

ist

my newest toy

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 01, 2009, 11:46:41 PM

about my last picture see above ...

what if i took speeker wire bifillar thin gage .. and did 3 turns around each and compleated the loop at the 6th coil then jt ed the pulse coil with a 3055 and never taped the jt flyback so it is forced out the 6 inductors as step up transformers then grouped all outs togather as one after rectifering

ist

just looking for comments

:D

yikes i may wind round and round and round then stop ..... hummmmmmm

ok im gonna use magnet wire .... bifillar

gonna use fone wire .. as primary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 02, 2009, 08:18:52 AM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on July 01, 2009, 08:21:51 PM
here is some info on winding tesla primaries, pancake style. i know this isn't bifilar like you want to wind but it might give you some ideas.
http://www.tb3.com/tesla/hugecoil/primary/primary.html
http://www.capturedlightning.org/hot-streamer/exxos/room/mycoil.html

This is good stuff...thanks for the infos

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 02, 2009, 08:22:46 AM

Quote from: jeanna on July 01, 2009, 09:14:46 PM
;D
Ah yes, stprue

Your boneyard must look a lot like mine by now.

I am finding a use for them as plain inductors on the ac side of things. Maybe you will find a good use for yours too!

:D jeanna

hehe It's getting pretty full! Just when you think you have a good idea...bam..another blah blah coil. For me, if I don't try it I will just keep thinking aobut it, so I just need to build most every idea....oh well it's the best way to learn anyways!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 02, 2009, 08:27:26 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on July 01, 2009, 11:46:41 PM
about my last picture see above ...

what if i took speeker wire bifillar thin gage .. and did 3 turns around each and compleated the loop at the 6th coil then jt ed the pulse coil with a 3055 and never taped the jt flyback so it is forced out the 6 inductors as step up transformers then grouped all outs togather as one after rectifering

ist

just looking for comments

:D

yikes i may wind round and round and round then stop ..... hummmmmmm

ok im gonna use magnet wire .... bifillar

gonna use fone wire .. as primary

That's some very interesting stuff your working on...nice job bro ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 02, 2009, 10:48:02 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on July 01, 2009, 11:46:41 PM
about my last picture see above ...

what if i took speeker wire bifillar thin gage .. and did 3 turns around each and compleated the loop at the 6th coil then jt ed the pulse coil with a 3055 and never taped the jt flyback so it is forced out the 6 inductors as step up transformers then grouped all outs togather as one after rectifering

ist

just looking for comments

:D

yikes i may wind round and round and round then stop ..... hummmmmmm

ok im gonna use magnet wire .... bifillar

gonna use fone wire .. as primary

IST

I suggest that you rectify them in 2 groups .
I would use at least 2 of them for feedback
I have found that adding feecback aften boosts the output voltage more than adding flyback

I am pretty sure that you know this .......but maybe others don't
You need to have a load to drive before you can get much flyback from a circuit like this . The flyback is created by current creating magnetic flux in the coils ....... if there is not much current there will not be much flyback
The load can be in series with the flyback coils

gary

Edit

The more I look at the pictures the more it looks to me like you have made one large unit with 6 separate parts . All the primarys are in series .
It looks to me that it will act as one unit rather than as a string of units

I would say it will act like one large JT ...... if your 3055 has enough power to drive it .

You really don;t have alot of wire in the primarys for collecting flyback
I take the output of the original JT secondary and feed it into the secondary of another JT coil .
( more wire =more flux )
After feeding a few secondarys I usually have to switch to primarys so that I don't build up to much inductance in the string

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 02, 2009, 11:15:17 AM

BINGO!!! ;D

200V RINGGINGGGGG PULSES ...

x6 ill scope it later on today ...

im impressed...

ist

useing 3904 and the same aaa battery

later has come early :D

here are some pictures ..

;D 8)

scope is 50 v /div.. :o

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 02, 2009, 11:41:48 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on July 02, 2009, 11:15:17 AM
BINGO!!! ;D

200V RINGGINGGGGG PULSES ...

x6 ill scope it later on today ...

im impressed...

ist

useing 3904 and the same aaa battery

later has come early :D

here are some pictures ..

;D 8)

scope is 50 v /div.. :o

IST

Great work :)

Just wondering if I understand this right

It looks to me like your scope shots were taken with the secondarys not connected to anything .......is this right ?

If so ...... then you are inducing current in the secondarys then the flyback induces current in the primary

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 02, 2009, 11:49:33 AM

yes nothing connected to them but i could now wind a collector coil ...

of magnet wire .... and the ringging fly back could come out like another primary ...

no
?

or i could rectify it as showen and have 6 feeds but i may add a nano jt to power it with a little more voltage and a button cell ... but i would reccomend changeing to a 3055 and protect it with a neon ..

ist!

warning!! be carefull if i ramped up the voltage .... it could be a deadly stun gun!!!!

or 1 hell of a spark reactor ;D ;D

oops i made an ooppeee lol my scope is on the 1x not the 10 times

so ya... lol :( its good tho infact safer .... lol

ill be back at it later on

peace!

if we increase our driveing voltage the our out will rize keeping the rest the same

im getting 1vdc to 25-30 no if i increased to 30 on the input ... what will the out put be ?

this is easly done useing a 1 uf cap on the input of this coil and chargeing it from a nano jt

and a button cell

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 02, 2009, 12:26:56 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on July 02, 2009, 11:49:33 AM
yes nothing connected to them but i could now wind a collector coil ...

of magnet wire .... and the ringging fly back could come out like another primary ...

no
?

or i could rectify it as showen and have 6 feeds but i may add a nano jt to power it with a little more voltage and a button cell ... but i would reccomend changeing to a 3055 and protect it with a neon ..

ist!

warning!! be carefull if i ramped up the voltage .... it could be a deadly stun gun!!!!

or 1 hell of a spark reactor ;D ;D

oops i made an ooppeee lol my scope is on the 1x not the 10 times

so ya... lol :( its good tho infact safer .... lol

ill be back at it later on

peace!

if we increase our driveing voltage the our out will rize keeping the rest the same

im getting 1vdc to 25-30 no if i increased to 30 on the input ... what will the out put be ?

IST

I am impressed :)

do you agree that you are inducing flyback into the primary ?

I tried a simple test with an air core JT then a unconnected wire core ....... didn;t notice any difference .........but ...... I didn;t have any real current flowing ..... so it probably wasn't a good test

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 02, 2009, 12:39:38 PM

i can not say for sure at this point!!

but i can power 24 leds with out affecting the rinning pulse on the other coils ....

hummmmm i think all coils need to be loaded and then tuned to highest out put ...

i say this cuz my leds were not full brightness

but it did not change the wave on the scope ..

ok so im getting like 20 volts per coil i added 2 togather and my wave grew... up to 30- 35 no diodes

ok now i switched to a 4401 transistor im up to 30v ringinggg per coil ...

well i could add full wave rectifiers and some photo flash caps ... then drain off as i desire 6 out puts of 30 vdc from a aaa sure is ok by me ....

8)

ist...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 02, 2009, 01:59:51 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on July 02, 2009, 11:49:33 AM
yes nothing connected to them but i could now wind a collector coil ...

of magnet wire .... and the ringging fly back could come out like another primary ...

no
?

yes.

Is this your primary?
Mine rings too as a primary...

I am finding that if the pickups are all coming from one toroid as this one will be.

I can put a very big load on the whole thing.
But, if I split it into 2 separate outputs, only one of the split parts will do the work.

It can be half and half, but it can be anything. 4 leds will put out 18leds or 18 leds will put out 4 leds.

They take turns. Even though the system can supply enough for all the leds, only one at a time goes on.

UNLESS...unless...
I am finding that by putting a coil of almost any kind, the lights stay on in all the circuits that have the extra coil.
I am working out the details, but a coil hooked up between one wire and the leds, will keep those on

Quote...

warning!! be carefull ......ooppeee lol my scope is on the 1x not the 10 times

I have had to add a 33ohm resistor at the battery because the leds were hurting my eyes. The 33 ohm brought the light to almost out. I can see if something makes them change, but they are safe for me. (also safe for the leds, at one point I was blowing them too)

they are very bright with the primary at resonance.
...

Quoteif we increase our driving voltage the out put will rise keeping the rest the same
..
this is easily done using a 1 uf cap on the input of this coil and charging it from a nano jt

and a button cell

Ist, if you put a small value resistor in series with the pos side of the battery, you can easily see the effect of changing the driving voltage without blowing more leds. (!)

Good stuff ist
thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 02, 2009, 02:27:48 PM

i added the caps ..

here a few pics

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 02, 2009, 04:44:20 PM

well i plonked on a full wave bridge made of 1n914 diodes

and i get a constant 9.60vdc out of 1 coil i have not done the others yet... or put it in the cap but once it is in the cap we can hook up a small cap on a mk2 unit ... like 10uf 9v but i need better transistors for higher volts

mk1 will the ones from the ramma cfl drivers work ??

then if we can do the next round just that much slower and bigger and higher in voltage ... what will be ?

ist

now the darn thing is at 12vdc constant it is touchy i need more fine tune pots to max the unit out

the caps charge ... they do take a few seconds tho but this is no concern to me as i will onlly take a little from them and once there full to 12 volts or so we should get a good returning colapse from the next phase ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 02, 2009, 05:47:48 PM

@ist

I am not sure i get the question.

Try to make the jt coils go around the ferrite post cw ,ccw ,cw ,ccw ,cw etc...
since the circuit and bemf are in opposite direction.
I believe it helps the kick cancellation caused by the multi core setup...

Also remember that there is energy lost at the ends of the ferrite rods , maybe putting them between soft iron plates .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 02, 2009, 06:20:16 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on July 02, 2009, 05:47:48 PM
@ist

I am not sure i get the question.

Try to make the jt coils go around the ferrite post cw ,ccw ,cw ,ccw ,cw etc...
since the circuit and bemf are in opposite direction.
I believe it helps the kick cancellation caused by the multi core setup...

Also remember that there is energy lost at the ends of the ferrite rods , maybe putting them between soft iron plates .

Mark

mark you have taken apart the ramma cfls right you know the transistors in there ..

sxw 13001 i cant find any info on them i was wondering if i could use those ones with a higher voltage supply cap ...

looking for cheep and handy transistors to use in place of 3055's cuz i got none left ...

ist!

i have now 4 bridges soldered on the ring and 4 outputs round 6 + v from the caps ... i will finish the bridges .. and the ring

got it all done i have 6 caps holding bout 8 vdc from a aaa battery ...

hummmm

ill add a pic

they apear to be climbing to 12 vdc per cap .. there bouts

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 02, 2009, 06:24:48 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 02, 2009, 01:59:51 PM

UNLESS...unless...
I am finding that by putting a coil of almost any kind, the lights stay on in all the circuits that have the extra coil.
I am working out the details, but a coil hooked up between one wire and the leds, will keep those on

Jeanna

I think what you are doing here is impedance matching
If you think about it the electrons will always take the easiest way ...........

I just got my 90 LED array and a CFL to light at the same time.
The CFL was not very bright .......but it was lit .

I got the CFL to light by shifting all my flyback coils to the LED array side . ....

I will see if I can get a picture ..... I did it with my newest toy ....... A JT made with a flyback transformer core .

This new JT is a MK2 2 windings on each leg of the wire going to the base .
4 windings each leg of the other wire .
To keep it simple ..... I wound 2 spools of green Radio Shack wire ( 75 ft #26 )
and one spool of gold Radio shack wire ( 40 ft #22 )
I wound them all together in one coil
I thought that the green wire would have quite a bit higher voltage ...but it is about the same as the heavier wire .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on July 02, 2009, 06:45:32 PM

@ IST

Re: 005.JPG

Looking at your set up, I wondered it would increase the performance of the caps and the circuit if the wire was also coiled around each cap all the way around.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 02, 2009, 08:06:02 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on July 02, 2009, 06:24:48 PM

I just got my 90 LED array and a CFL to light at the same time.
The CFL was not very bright .......but it was lit .

Excellent Gary!

Good going!
CFL's seem to be harder to light than the tubes, also. Very good.

QuoteJeanna

I think what you are doing here is impedance matching
If you think about it the electrons will always take the easiest way ...........

Well, that is what is curious about this.
I would think a straight connection would take preference over the impedance of the extra coil in between. It is
secondary wire(|) coil ($) leds in series (D_D_D) secondary wire(|)

so it draws up like this

|_$_D_D_D_| It is all in series.

I played with a tank today and I did find a cap that increased the light output from the leds.
The odd part is that the voltage across those leds decreased by about 3v from 13v to 3v at the same time that the lights increased!

Someone else (altrez? stprue?) saw this the other day and asked but no one came forward with an idea about what was happening.

Do you have a way to explain this? I am pretty much wandering, and I could use some input if anybody knows what could cause this?

So, Gary, (or anybody else who knows)please talk to me about impedance matching.

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 02, 2009, 09:06:38 PM

ok so i have all the caps running proper i want to add the next cap off the bigone what is the best way to isolate the big cap from the small 1

i want to sneek 1uf from the big caps and dump the 1 uf 50vdc cap to the mk2 rings ...

i soldered 1 small cap on there with a diode between but when i drain the 1uf cap the big one also drains ...

call me dumb ... but i have NO SCHOOLING IN THIS STUFF...

and if i did i dont remember ... lol

maybe i need a resistor i dont know for sure i would sooner look dumb and ask for help than mess a round for days figureing it out ... ;D

ist!

i bet i need a common ground to the aaa battery for my 1uf caps.. were just splitting the pos here :D

lol just lke the cam units...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 02, 2009, 10:55:21 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 02, 2009, 08:06:02 PM
Excellent Gary!

Good going!
CFL's seem to be harder to light than the tubes, also. Very good.

Well, that is what is curious about this.
I would think a straight connection would take preference over the impedance of the extra coil in between. It is
secondary wire(|) coil ($) leds in series (D_D_D) secondary wire(|)

so it draws up like this

|_$_D_D_D_| It is all in series.

Jeanna

are you talking about some of the LEDs in a string not lighting ?
I thought we were talking about only one secondary working at a time .

I think it is the same problem ...... most of the current will follow the path with least resistance .

LEDs in series could be matched with resistors .......but it would be alot of work

Quote

I played with a tank today and I did find a cap that increased the light output from the leds.
The odd part is that the voltage across those leds decreased by about 3v from 13v to 3v at the same time that the lights increased!

Someone else (altrez? stprue?) saw this the other day and asked but no one came forward with an idea about what was happening.

Do you have a way to explain this? I am pretty much wandering, and I could use some input if anybody knows what could cause this?

So, Gary, (or anybody else who knows)please talk to me about impedance matching.

Thank you,

jeanna

I have noticed quite a few times when the voltage went down and the lights got brighter .
This may be due to frequency ........but I think it is more likely transformer action .
Less voltage but more current .
I have driven my arrays at 250 V and still not had them at full brightness
If I had full current they should have been as bright as running from a wall socket at a simalar voltage . .

I have posted a couple of pictures

The first one is my Flyback transformer core JT
The second one is a circuit with several LM coils for flyback and feedback
The last coil on the right is not connected for feedback in this picture the secondary of this coil is connected .
The LED array is dim..... the floro is taking most of the power .
Notice the pattern in the LED array .
This array is driven in 4 sections .......the sections were not matched very well so you can see a very noticeable pattern in the LEDs

In the 3rd picture I have moved 2 wires . I have changed the connection of the last coil on the right from its secondary to its primary ....... ( much lower impiedance )
The floro has gotten dimmer the LED array much brighter .
This is at or maybe slightly brighter than if it was plugged into the wall .
Notice at full brightness the missmatched driver sections don't make much difference in the LED array .

I arrived at this balance just by trying different coils and seeing what works .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 03, 2009, 12:26:09 AM

@ Gary:

Very nice work there! This is looking good.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 03, 2009, 01:11:06 AM

@Gary

QuoteI have noticed quite a few times when the voltage went down and the lights got brighter .
This may be due to frequency ........but I think it is more likely transformer action .
Less voltage but more current .
I have driven my arrays at 250 V and still not had them at full brightness
If I had full current they should have been as bright as running from a wall socket at a simalar voltage . .

This is a good point, Gary.

I will give it some thought and experiment a little with it tomorrow.

Your pics are showing good results. bravo!

I have been trying to spiff up that Tesla lecture from London. It is down to 5.3Mb now. As I remove extra spaces and the pages get smaller, it grows littler. I am less than half way through, however.
I am doing it because I think it is important for others to be able to read this. There is a whole lot we in our world of lights and mains power simply do not need, but buried in all the stories of experiments are gems that no one seems to remember.

Here is one.

Whenever you have a secondary, close it onto itself and attach a capacitor to both ends. He basically says don't ever not do this. Sometimes you want to attach a cap to the primary as well. I think thanks to gadget we have been doing some of this, in our jtc's, but it never occurred to me it was an always idea. The point is to keep the oscillations going.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 03, 2009, 09:19:49 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on July 02, 2009, 09:06:38 PM
ok so i have all the caps running proper i want to add the next cap off the bigone what is the best way to isolate the big cap from the small 1

i want to sneek 1uf from the big caps and dump the 1 uf 50vdc cap to the mk2 rings ...

i soldered 1 small cap on there with a diode between but when i drain the 1uf cap the big one also drains ...

call me dumb ... but i have NO SCHOOLING IN THIS STUFF...

and if i did i dont remember ... lol

maybe i need a resistor i dont know for sure i would sooner look dumb and ask for help than mess a round for days figureing it out ... ;D

ist!

i bet i need a common ground to the aaa battery for my 1uf caps.. were just splitting the pos here :D

lol just lke the cam units...

Great work ist. It kinda looks like a TPU without a cover to hide it doesn't it? I wonder what the performance would if you added in some max/supercaps!!!

Keep up the good work ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on July 03, 2009, 02:43:23 PM

Does anyone know that actual working voltage and current needed for one of these twist bulbs?

Not what you've successfully used, but what it uses out of the package?

The LED's seems to be working better.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 03, 2009, 02:54:06 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 03, 2009, 01:11:06 AM

Here is one.

Whenever you have a secondary, close it onto itself and attach a capacitor to both ends. He basically says don't ever not do this. Sometimes you want to attach a cap to the primary as well. I think thanks to gadget we have been doing some of this, in our jtc's, but it never occurred to me it was an always idea. The point is to keep the oscillations going.

jeanna

Jeanna

I am not used to the way Tesla phrases things .

Is he saying that all our secondrys should be stand alone resonant circuits ?

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 03, 2009, 04:04:04 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on July 03, 2009, 02:54:06 PM
Jeanna

I am not used to the way Tesla phrases things .

Is he saying that all our secondrys should be stand alone resonant circuits ?

gary

Yes, I think so. It is what I am beginning to find out. As I poke at things, this keeps being what I see too.

He also uses different circuit diagrams from the usual dc one, and although it makes more sense, it is confusing at first, and takes getting used to.

look below. I will repost this.
There are 6 separate circuits being used simultaneously.
Looking from left to right, you can see that after each drawing of a transformed pair of coils, there is always a condenser.

I missed why until I caught it yesterday... well I discovered it then noticed that he had always said it.

I have been thinking about one other one today.

His lectures are hard to read because he just gets started on something new to us then moves over to talking about lightbulbs.

I have got this understanding and 'method' from his lectures:

You can make low frequency turn into high frequency and when you do that you make high voltage.
The high voltage comes as a result of the high number of times the BEMF occurs.
Then because you have high voltage you can make it spark and turn the spark into something else,

Or. you can keep the energy high and allow it to oscillate.
If you make it oscillate you can use the same energy again and again, But, to do that, you must have the condenser/capacitor to keep the oscillations going.
And the best place for that is to have it in parallel with the coil.

(There are instances for putting it series, but not here.)

jeanna

edit
oops, not all 6, one is a rectifying method and one is just using the spark as it is to light a bunch of lights.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 03, 2009, 05:19:06 PM

@Jeanna

I'm sure you know this but have you taken frequency measurements with the secondaries rectifien and then put in series or attach it to itself like tesla says. When it is in series with itself the frequency goes up approximately 75%.

Edit: I also noticed that voltage goes down but a connected led will get brighter.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on July 03, 2009, 06:01:27 PM

Jeanna...from here it looks like you are going to end up with the same device as that Russian inventor in the video they are studying on that other hot thread.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 03, 2009, 06:16:27 PM

Quote from: stprue on July 03, 2009, 05:19:06 PM
@Jeanna

I'm sure you know this but have you taken frequency measurements with the secondaries rectified and then put in series or attach it to itself like tesla says. When it is in series with itself the frequency goes up approximately 75%.

Where is that quote? I would love to read this.

No, I haven't.

If I were to rectify the secondary and feed it back in, I would blow the transistor.

But I am looking at 111KHz and 209KHz. I have seen over 1Mhz just by using a joule thief!!

As to taking frequency measurements from the rectified secondary, I found that the frequency of the basic joule thief determined the frequency of the secondary.

So, at the moment, I have
basic joule thief in resonance. tor-23;
2 secondaries pulsing at the same frequency, each one being a separate circuit lighting leds at a different rate.
One is 84v, the other is at 37v, but that is without the resistor at the battery.
At 205KHz
There is a lot to play with just to be able to see what happens.
I must use a resistor at the battery because otherwise it hurts my eyes the leds are so bright.

With the biggo, I had it in mind to get a good high frequency then tune it down to get a high voltage.

It is in fact what eventually happened.

It started at 90v per direction of the MK1 but when I was finished the volts were 70 v.
The frequency was high though, (not sure how much, I can look it up if needed.)
I tuned it by reducing the resistor at the base of the transistor, and the volts climbed up to 450v and the frequency dropped but was still 5.6KHz.

5.6 is still in the high frequency range and I am still getting the benefit of the high frequency. (by lighting a tube.)

ooo it is too hot for my computer.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 03, 2009, 06:44:48 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 03, 2009, 06:16:27 PM
Where is that quote? I would love to read this.

No, I haven't.

If I were to rectify the secondary and feed it back in, I would blow the transistor.

But I am looking at 111KHz and 209KHz. I have seen over 1MHz just by using a joule thief!!

As to taking frequency measurements from the rectified secondary, I found that the frequency of the basic joule thief determined the frequency of the secondary.

So, at the moment, I have
basic joule thief in resonance. tor-23;
2 secondaries pulsing at the same frequency, each one being a separate circuit lighting leds at a different rate.
One is 84v, the other is at 37v, but that is without the resistor at the battery.
At 205KHz
There is a lot to play with just to be able to see what happens.
I must use a resistor at the battery because otherwise it hurts my eyes the leds are so bright.

With the biggo, I had it in mind to get a good high frequency then tune it down to get a high voltage.

It is in fact what eventually happened.

It started at 90v per direction of the MK1 but when I was finished the volts were 70 v.
The frequency was high though, (not sure how much, I can look it up if needed.)
I tuned it by reducing the resistor at the base of the transistor, and the volts climbed up to 450v and the frequency dropped but was still 5.6KHz.

5.6 is still in the high frequency range and I am still getting the benefit of the high frequency. (by lighting a tube.)

ooo it is too hot for my computer.

jeanna

That's strange I think my recent MK coil is exactly 5.6khz but when you put the secondaries in series with each other it goes up to like 15 point something khz's I had an led in at the same time and at 15khz the voltage was lower but the led was brighter and vise verse. I noticed this today messing with my ddm..

Maybe you can ansewer this...I can't get a frequency reading on the biggo!!! I was thinking it might have something to do with the maxcaps I'm using but I haven't tried taking them off yet!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 03, 2009, 08:02:44 PM

Quote from: stprue on July 03, 2009, 06:44:48 PM
... but when you put the secondaries in series with each other....

Hi stprue,

I can't say anything about frequency readings without a scope.
Or, did you get that one you were wanting?

When I take volts and frequency measurements I am only taking them from the secondary. (I forget to say that, I apologize.)
I don't know where you are reading your frequency on your primary, so I need you to tell me that before I can compare it.
I have seen that when you raise the frequency you will lower the voltage. There are exceptions to this, but they are when adding other components or elements.. When the only thing that changes is the frequency the volts goes the other way.

That said, have you tried to follow what I have been showing next door?
All the secondaries are separately wound on the same toroid in that circuit. And the frequency is the same... It makes sense.

It also is so that when I connected them together, they were the same. But that may have a different reason. I used a tor-23 inductor to make all the lights stay on, and maybe that was a fortuitous discovery. I dunno.
I realized that when I connected them together, the wire they had in common, was the 'ground' and they were not really in series, maybe.

but they work both ways... separately or connected together with this common ground wire.

But...
You will not see these results if you make your circuit into a dc one. in a dc circuit the battery is the ground. The negative side of the collection cap will work as the ground, I think.

Quote...something to do with the maxcaps I'm using but I haven't tried taking them off yet!

I should think you would not be able to get a frequency reading with maxicaps, but I am not knowledgeable about caps. It seems to me the cap would absorb the pulses. I think if you want to see the frequency and it is fast, you must have small value caps... but I don't know how small. sorry.

I hope this makes some sense.

@cap-z-ro

I just realized you might think I am ignoring you again!
:D
I am not sure.
I am not making dc out of anything. I found it disappointing that the russian inventor is making dc. The thickness of the wires was a good hint.

What I am continuing to do, is find out how this ac thing works.

We have been given a very small part of ac info... only what fits into a dc circuit diagram.
I am switching to the ac diagram that tesla used. It is the only way to express what happens.
Notice, how the circuit trails off to the right. It really never has to end.

AND THAT IS REALLY SIGNIFICANT

But not too many experimenters here want to play in this sandbox. There is no resource except Tesla, and his writings need to be studied, not read. Also, for our purposes the writings are all over the place, because he was trying to convince the world that radio and telecommunications and lightbulbs in all houses were possible.

But no one has explored his real ideas.

This russian inventor is doing it, but instead of using commercial ac he is using dc. I wonder if "Georgia power and light" is dc?

Oh well, but it is really close. In fact, it may be exactly the same with the dc conversion as shown in the picture I posted earlier.

I need help tuning capacitors to inductors.

Do you know how to go about doing that?

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 03, 2009, 08:32:13 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 03, 2009, 08:02:44 PM
Hi stprue,

I can't say anything about frequency readings without a scope.
Or, did you get that one you were wanting?

When I take volts and frequency measurements I am only taking them from the secondary. (I forget to say that, I apologize.)
I don't know where you are reading your frequency on your primary, so I need you to tell me that before I can compare it.
I have seen that when you raise the frequency you will lower the voltage. There are exceptions to this, but they are when adding other components or elements.. When the only thing that changes is the frequency the volts goes the other way.

That said, have you tried to follow what I have been showing next door?
All the secondaries are separately wound on the same toroid in that circuit. And the frequency is the same... It makes sense.

It also is so that when I connected them together, they were the same. But that may have a different reason. I used a tor-23 inductor to make all the lights stay on, and maybe that was a fortuitous discovery. I dunno.
I realized that when I connected them together, the wire they had in common, was the 'ground' and they were not really in series, maybe.

but they work both ways... separately or connected together with this common ground wire.

But...
You will not see these results if you make your circuit into a dc one. in a dc circuit the battery is the ground. The negative side of the collection cap will work as the ground, I think.I should think you would not be able to get a frequency reading with maxicaps, but I am not knowledgeable about caps. It seems to me the cap would absorb the pulses. I think if you want to see the frequency and it is fast, you must have small value caps... but I don't know how small. sorry.

jeanna

My DDM reads frequency.

I was thinking about the caps messing with it but they are on the first voltage input and not where I'm making my reading. I will try taking them off. I also want to try charging the maxcaps in parellel and have the out put in series to the jt.

I didn't know that connecting the secondary back to the source it would kill your transistor!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 03, 2009, 08:49:06 PM

Quote from: Cap-Z-ro on July 03, 2009, 06:01:27 PM
Jeanna...from here it looks like you are going to end up with the same device as that Russian inventor in the video they are studying on that other hot thread.

Regards...

lol

yea i got bored with that last unit ... i could use it as a power supply for a shift coil runnnn slowly with 2 freqs .... but bahhhhhhhh

i built

you all a ramped up jt pump coil :D lets call it a tpu.... thanks aluka!! ;)

ist!

better check it out ..... ;D

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7612.310

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 03, 2009, 09:34:51 PM

Quote from: stprue on July 03, 2009, 08:32:13 PM
My DDM reads frequency.

cool.

QuoteI didn't know that connecting the secondary back to the source it would kill your transistor!

Well, not just cuz it is your secondary, but when you rectify your secondary and get 84 volts you better not use that as the source into your transistor. I spoze if your resistor is hi value enough, but then why bother?

I could be wrong. I just thought it was a bad idea. I mean when you collect 84 volts into a cap after 10 seconds from a full bridge then you short it, what happens?

QuoteI was thinking about the caps messing with it but they are on the first voltage input...

Oh, I see. No, they should do almost nothing there. They help if the power dips, I think. they are what made the difference in 1 hour in the time on the tube. But they never show up on any meters. AFAIK

jeanna

ok ist I will check it out now.!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 03, 2009, 09:35:38 PM

@ stprue

Quote from: stprue on July 03, 2009, 06:44:48 PM
That's strange I think my recent MK coil is exactly 5.6khz but when you put the secondaries in series with each other it goes up to like 15 point something khz's I had an led in at the same time and at 15khz the voltage was lower but the led was brighter and vise verse. I noticed this today messing with my ddm..

Maybe you can ansewer this...I can't get a frequency reading on the biggo!!! I was thinking it might have something to do with the maxcaps I'm using but I haven't tried taking them off yet!

When I increased the pickup coil turns on the 3.38" toroid from 20 to 80 the frequency and output voltage each doubled.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 04, 2009, 10:21:48 AM

Quote from: xee2 on July 03, 2009, 09:35:38 PM
@ stprue

When I increased the pickup coil turns on the 3.38" toroid from 20 to 80 the frequency and output voltage each doubled.

If you fill up the entire coil, let me know if you can get a frequency reading. I still think my error may be the maxcaps!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 04, 2009, 12:31:34 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 03, 2009, 09:35:38 PM
@ stprue

When I increased the pickup coil turns on the 3.38" toroid from 20 to 80 the frequency and output voltage each doubled.

I am not comfortable with that explanation , i believe it only changed freq because of the pickup coil location it is now picking up the pulses from both jt coil doubling the freq , there is a easy test to prove my point , make a 20 turn pickup coil and put it between the jt coil but closer then on your 20 turn pickup coil was when tested ...

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 04, 2009, 02:31:24 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 03, 2009, 06:16:27 PM

If I were to rectify the secondary and feed it back in, I would blow the transistor.

Jeanna

I guess it depends on how you do it.

I have been connecting feedback to the cap in my Jesus charger
The only transistors I have blown were when I was using the MOT JT

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 04, 2009, 02:49:58 PM

@ Mk1

Quote from: Mk1 on July 04, 2009, 12:31:34 PM

I am not comfortable with that explanation , i believe it only changed freq because of the pickup coil location it is now picking up the pulses from both jt coil doubling the freq , there is a easy test to prove my point , make a 20 turn pickup coil and put it between the jt coil but closer then on your 20 turn pickup coil was when tested ...

Mark

I do not understnad how you reached that conclusion. Attached are photos of the coils used for the tests. My experience is that the location of the coils does not effect results. But I do not have ascope. Jeanna says she sees a difference on the scope. I hope someone with a scope can document the effect you are talking about.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 04, 2009, 03:19:07 PM

@xee2

The location and also the direction of winding makes a difference , I tested all of them and there are different , i figured it out while looking for dead spot , by making a single loop around the toroid and moved it around the toroid , then do the same with a 5 turn one , you will see ...

Mark

Not seeing something doesn't mean its not there ...

And don't get me wrong here your input and work is important here and keep it up .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 04, 2009, 05:30:09 PM

@xee2,
I have some more data. I took pics of the big toroid core and the scope as I unwound the MK1 pickup and rewound it to solenoid style. 20 turns

Then since I had more wire, I wound as much as I could to 27 turns and took some more measurements.

I will now get the scope shots in a presentable form and be back.

I did light a neon with 27 turns and 224v. It was a little temperamental and maybe needed another finger on the bulb to start it, but maybe not. I took closeups of that and I hope I will be able to see.

I will be back to finish this report.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 04, 2009, 06:17:19 PM

@ jeanna

This is the circuit I used. There was no problem lighting neon and it was lit up bright.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 04, 2009, 06:41:59 PM

xee2,
Yes, mine too. I suppose if I did it properly with clips it would work better. The leads were meant for a car etc. I should solder some wires to the ends.

I only prepared 3 composite pictures.
They say on them what they are.
The last one shows the problem very well. I made an extra set of marks over and under the next wave so you are sure that it is that far away from the other two.
The frequency variation between the close pair and the more distant pair is 11.1Hz and 2.22KHz pretty big difference. also the voltage range on that one is 17v-225v. If it lights a neon, it will light a fluoro, so I guess it does not matter... but in case it does, it is nice to know how to make a pickup with a nicer wave.

This is the replication of the circuit you just posted 2T10T20T. The wave on 20T is very much like the one included here. The pic did not turn out so well.

85 degrees! :P

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 04, 2009, 06:56:51 PM

@ jeanna

Great. It looks like you were able to light the neon. Photo is a bit fuzzy so I may be wrong. By the way, I think your 10 turn and 27 turn coil photos are resversed. Where would you like to go from here? With 80 turns you can light a fluorescent tube.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on July 05, 2009, 01:46:47 AM

Hi all . Been to dang Busy being Re tired . I have a lot of Jt thread reading . I got another self runner !! Yes i know . who cares . Me! Its easier than you can imagine . Just a different coil design!!!!!! Well hope everything is going good . i'll put my 2 cent in when i can . I got a Scope Common . a Digital Storage Scope!! hatachi 200MZH so i'll be in the game again shortly and also be able to hook it to my computer .. I stole it with a sniper from ebay for 89 bucks shipping included . Hmmm . maybe a 3000 dollar scope ? Ok Must catch up . !!
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 05, 2009, 11:04:49 AM

@Gary
Well done with lightning the fluros, sorry I havent seen any more, so much hapenning oseas and here.

I'm way behind, in the last week I have made 2 special work benches, moved all my test instruments to one, put my laptops on the other.
After that I built my very first Bedini, and it works pritty good.
I can light a neon between the smaller wires, and the video drum spins nice and fast, wow its intoxatating, lol
I have been watching the Tour De France, and downloading from Bills newest site.
In amungst all this I had an emergency in town.

I've been flat out like a lizard drinking lol

Now its time for bed.
hooroo all
jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on July 05, 2009, 11:05:16 AM

@xee2

Hey what type of wire are you using on that toroid? And where did you purchase it? Can it be found online?

Thanks!

-Altrez

@gadgetmall

Can you post plans of your self runner? I have been wanting to make one with a cap in place of the battery and can not seem to get it to work.

Thanks!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on July 05, 2009, 11:07:28 AM

Quote from: jeanna on July 04, 2009, 06:41:59 PM
xee2,
Yes, mine too. I suppose if I did it properly with clips it would work better. The leads were meant for a car etc. I should solder some wires to the ends.

I only prepared 3 composite pictures.
They say on them what they are.
The last one shows the problem very well. I made an extra set of marks over and under the next wave so you are sure that it is that far away from the other two.
The frequency variation between the close pair and the more distant pair is 11.1Hz and 2.22KHz pretty big difference. also the voltage range on that one is 17v-225v. If it lights a neon, it will light a fluoro, so I guess it does not matter... but in case it does, it is nice to know how to make a pickup with a nicer wave.

This is the replication of the circuit you just posted 2T10T20T. The wave on 20T is very much like the one included here. The pic did not turn out so well.

85 degrees! :P

jeanna

Awesome work jeanna.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on July 05, 2009, 11:12:51 AM

Quote from: altrez on July 05, 2009, 11:05:16 AM
@xee2

Hey what type of wire are you using on that toroid? And where did you purchase it? Can it be found online?

Thanks!

-Altrez Hi . It was off topic but does use the basic components posted at one magnet bedini started by jonnydavro !It uses My basic idea of feeding back to the source from a secondary with caps and rectifier .check it out , I know it can be replaced with some maps instead of a magnet i bet .
gadget

@gadgetmall

Can you post plans of your self runner? I have been wanting to make one with a cap in place of the battery and can not seem to get it to work.

Thanks!

-Altrez

There posted in one magnet bedini started by jonnydavro . No i dont have the link handy .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on July 05, 2009, 11:35:24 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on July 05, 2009, 11:12:51 AM
......

Do you happen to have a link to that post ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 05, 2009, 12:13:16 PM

@Altrez, thanks. It was interesting to see how ugly a wave could still produce the ability to light a neon.

@xee2, I am trying to understand why you thought my pics were reversed. (they were not) Maybe it is just a resolution thing.
I was at a higher resolution on one than the other and the waves look longer, but that is because the screen changed resolutions.
At every resolution except 2MHz or close, the wave is made of 2 digital lines. One up and one back. I believe it is skinnier than it is shown and therefore the frequency actually does change, but in less than i pixel width. Only at that very high resolution can I see the wave spread into a 4 pixel width triangle wave. (I cannot say which resolution because I cannot get 2 spikes to appear on the screen at the same time when so close.)

@Gadget,
I am glad to see you here again.
You did something very novel a way back and got 1600 volts added to an output. I am finding that this is what ac circuits are all about. I know you do things intuitively so you may not know the answer... no problem if that is so, but, I want to know how you grab the right capacitor to match a particular inductor?

I have been looking online and I will continue to, but you seem to be able to do this already, and I wonder if you can help me.

Of course anybody else can help too!
Gary said I was looking for impedance matching. I need to look that up.
EDIT: impedance matching appears to be overly complicated. I think I just need to find the inductance value and its matching capacitance.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 05, 2009, 02:58:31 PM

@ altrez

Quote from: altrez on July 05, 2009, 11:05:16 AM
@xee2

Hey what type of wire are you using on that toroid? And where did you purchase it? Can it be found online?

The wire in the photos of the 3.38" toroid is #26 solid from an unknown manufacturer that I bought at local electronics store. I also use #30 wire wrap wire. Both should be available on line if you search. If you can find #28 solid plastic coated wire I think that would be best choice since it is less expensive than wire wrap wire but I have not been able to find any locally and it gets expensive when I have to pay shipping.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on July 05, 2009, 03:07:25 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 05, 2009, 12:13:16 PM
@Altrez, thanks. It was interesting to see how ugly a wave could still produce the ability to light a neon.

@xee2, I am trying to understand why you thought my pics were reversed. (they were not) Maybe it is just a resolution thing.
I was at a higher resolution on one than the other and the waves look longer, but that is because the screen changed resolutions.
At every resolution except 2MHz or close, the wave is made of 2 digital lines. One up and one back. I believe it is skinnier than it is shown and therefore the frequency actually does change, but in less than i pixel width. Only at that very high resolution can I see the wave spread into a 4 pixel width triangle wave. (I cannot say which resolution because I cannot get 2 spikes to appear on the screen at the same time when so close.)

@Gadget,
I am glad to see you here again.
You did something very novel a way back and got 1600 volts added to an output. I am finding that this is what ac circuits are all about. I know you do things intuitively so you may not know the answer... no problem if that is so, but, I want to know how you grab the right capacitor to match a particular inductor?

I have been looking online and I will continue to, but you seem to be able to do this already, and I wonder if you can help me.

Of course anybody else can help too!
Gary said I was looking for impedance matching. I need to look that up.
EDIT: impedance matching appears to be overly complicated. I think I just need to find the inductance value and its matching capacitance.

thank you,

jeanna

I have hundreds of caps . i just stick one on and when she lights up brighter know thats close . then i might add anther one and see if it gets brighter and the draw goes down . Its just somthing i have been doing and works . If you can grab a big assortment pack if em . i got several packs of ever cap value . . I just have done it so much i have an idea where to start adding caps and inductors and pots and resistors i can do it in my sleep ;)
wish i could be more scientific but its chance for me and it works . If something works dont fix it sort of attitude . . My Scope will help a bit with where i am on Frequency of these . Cant wait to measure the few Ou devices i got and record their forms on My new Digital Storage Scope . It is of Coarse a normal scope as well with Storing capabilities to compare waves previously saved . I got so much to do . I have like 8 projects i am trying to get finished before winter plus My baby is taking most of my time as a good pop should pay attention to their kids and get them involved . I got a few new HHo Generators and a touch and some killer circuits . One nan cell producing 2 lpm will fire a torch and melt steel , rocks , whatever on about 2.5 amps . Still working on getting it DOWN !!! using distilled water and a special chemical .. I'll try to document Video Wise and upload to the tube when i have more time . .. I'll help as i can folks .
gadget

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 05, 2009, 03:07:50 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on July 05, 2009, 12:13:16 PM
@xee2, I am trying to understand why you thought my pics were reversed. (they were not)

Thanks. I was not reading correctly. I see that they are correct now.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 05, 2009, 03:35:28 PM

I finally checked to see how I was hooking up the coils for voltage measurements. So if you do it this way it is not necessary to try all combinations to get the best results. This will give you the best results.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 05, 2009, 04:50:45 PM

@ xee2

i do have a question bout your neon with 20 turns

and that would be why are you only lighting HALF OF IT ? ;)

gadget!! ??

bet you will answer this ... to make that shine you want the other half powered .. no ? ;)

a self runner ..... ooooooooo giver gadget!

ist!

ps gadget i built you a TPU hope you saw it and understand how it works :)

peace bros

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 05, 2009, 05:18:25 PM

@ ist

Quote from: innovation_station on July 05, 2009, 04:50:45 PM
@ xee2

i do have a question bout your neon with 20 turns

and that would be why are you only lighting HALF OF IT ? ;)

??? I do not think only half of it is being lit. But, it is whatever it is. I have no explaination, these are the results.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 05, 2009, 05:40:29 PM

ok lets take a closer look at the picture somthing can be learned here ..

look at the prongs on the neon ... only 1 side glows real brightly

ist

im gonna re post your picture :)

this means your missing the other half :) please play with some diodes aswell to trap the other half or consider a mk2 winding ... :)

both prongs can glow the same bright as the 1 i have done this in the past but i cant remember when or where i have done toooo many things to remember all of them ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 05, 2009, 06:27:01 PM

@ ist

You have good eyes. I set this up and looked at the neon, and you are correct. Only one electrode is lit. This seems reasonable since the current from the pickup coil only has a high voltage in one direction.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 05, 2009, 06:47:13 PM

@ist,
Didn't Artic Knight tell us that neons are often used to determine when the full AC is in a line? And that was because only one side glows at a time.

I have seen a neon get so bright I thought it was lit on both sides, but on closer inspection (carefully) it was not so, in fact only one side was lit, but it seemed to spread over to the other side.

But it is very clear on the scope that the circuit xee2 posted which was able to light a neon, was only making verrry skinny occasional spikes in one direction.

I propose asking if it actually matters.

Since the spike is measured over time, and 1 thousand pulses is lot of pulses... in one second of time, maybe we do not need to care.

Who knows it may even make it more efficient.
Maybe those occasional high and fast pulses are enough to do the work, and the rest of the time the battery is not being used.(?) except, unfortunately for the transistor.

Anyway, I think these are useful things to ponder. I like that you brought it up.

@xee2
BTW, I did put the other wire of the secondary into the neg side of the battery when starting the fluorescent tube.
I measured the amps draw, and it went down at the times I had the connection to secondary made.
The difference was small, like 1mA or 0.1mA but it was consistent.
The same thing happened when I touched the secondary to the pos side but about half as much.

@jesus,
What do you think about making your self charging arrangements connect to the negative side of the battery, rather than the positive? (I mean between the Emitter and the battery?)

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 05, 2009, 06:57:50 PM

@ ist

Putting a diode in series with the neon produces the same results with the diode in either direction. So it seems that the pickup coil voltage can go either way, but not both ways at once. Very strange.

EDIT: measusements with diode and capacitor show voltage is much higher for current in one direction than the other.

EDIT 2: the negative electrode glows

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on July 05, 2009, 08:07:03 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 05, 2009, 06:47:13 PM
...
@jesus,
What do you think about making your self charging arrangements connect to the negative side of the battery, rather than the positive? (I mean between the Emitter and the battery?)

thank you,

jeanna

I have been having troubles with my charger. It does charge one day and then it does not charge the next day.

About the negative configuration of the same thing I need to give it a thought in order to change the whole configuration to the negative side.

Who knows, it maybe works better on the negative side.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 05, 2009, 09:10:51 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on July 05, 2009, 06:47:13 PM
@xee2
BTW, I did put the other wire of the secondary into the neg side of the battery when starting the fluorescent tube.
I measured the amps draw, and it went down at the times I had the connection to secondary made.
The difference was small, like 1mA or 0.1mA but it was consistent.
The same thing happened when I touched the secondary to the pos side but about half as much.

I am not sure why, but adding this connection seems to sometimes make the tube light when it will not otherwise.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 05, 2009, 10:10:40 PM

Calculations showed that 60 turns should light tube so I decided to check. It does.

Not recommended, this is probably about the minimum number of turns to light a tube with 200 ohm base resistor. Therefore, performance is marginal unless tube is run at higher current.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 05, 2009, 11:39:25 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 05, 2009, 09:10:51 PM
@ jeanna

I am not sure why, but adding this connection seems to sometimes make the tube light when it will not otherwise.

I tried it but it didn't work for me, but the magnet trick worked fine. I can remove the magnet once the light is fully lit which is 30 seconds and already warmer.

I am glad you discovered it, because it shows that it saves a little amps draw from the battery, which is always cool.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 06, 2009, 12:21:52 AM

@Gadget,
Hello Al, mate, I have been very worried for you.
Hope everything is OK.

Quote from: gadgetmall on July 05, 2009, 01:46:47 AM
Hi all . Been to dang Busy being Re tired . I have a lot of Jt thread reading . I got another self runner !! Yes i know . who cares . Me! Its easier than you can imagine . Just a different coil design!!!!!! Well hope everything is going good . i'll put my 2 cent in when i can . I got a Scope Common . a Digital Storage Scope!! hatachi 200MZH so i'll be in the game again shortly and also be able to hook it to my computer .. I stole it with a sniper from ebay for 89 bucks shipping included . Hmmm . maybe a 3000 dollar scope ? Ok Must catch up . !!
Gadget

I glad you have a scope at long last, you will enjoy it, what an excellent find, well done Al

jim

PS I got to get back 2 my bedini soon, I discovered something, all the liturature says you get 1 spike with a 2N3055 switching transistor, haaaaaa ha, I can get 2 spikes, the trick is to slow it down, I addded a 5K pot, then reduce the power to the Trs Base, until the 2nd spike appears, as at each pass of the magnet.
I think to get a heep of spikes, use a reed switch, but I not tried that.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 06, 2009, 01:28:35 AM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on July 05, 2009, 11:39:25 PM
I tried it but it didn't work for me, but the magnet trick worked fine. I can remove the magnet once the light is fully lit which is 30 seconds and already warmer.

I am glad you discovered it, because it shows that it saves a little amps draw from the battery, which is always cool.

jeanna

So the magnet works even better than the extra connection for you. With the 200 ohm base resistor the tube lights with the added connection as shown in my previous diagram but will not light without it. Bringing a small neo magnet next to one end of the tube after the voltage has already been applied to the tube will cause the tube to light without the extra connection. So with a 200 ohm base resistor both techniques work. But with a 500 ohm base resistor neither technique will light the tube. So it would seem that the difference between the techniques is not very great in my tests. I wonder if the magnet works better on some types of circuits than others.

EDIT: When using a 100 ohm base resistor the tube lilghts without using either the extra connection or the magnet.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 06, 2009, 11:06:17 AM

nice work guys ..

i have seen both prongs light fully like xee2's neon in the past .... i think i was getting TRUE AC in 2 dirrections .. to achive this .. you may find that you need it hooked up as it is and then 2 more wires from the same source with diodes in line with them .. but

if the coil is correct you should get it with out diodes ... now it could have been that i was liteing it ac one side and dc the other ....

;)

not sure ... this was litterly months and months ago i did ths ...

i cant remember any more ... :(

its all good you guys ROCK so i dont doubt it will be solved soon!!

peace!

@jim it must have been my luckey day yesterday i saw my children agin ... there just so WONDERFUL!!

ALI drew me another picture ... she called it necklaces bracelets and DADDY'S TOY OH YEA SOME EAR PLUGS TOO .... :D THEN SHE SAID SOMETHING BOUT HER BIRTH DAY!!!!!! HUMMMMM! ;)

and my sun SKY also drew me some RINGS ... 1 DAY I WILL HAVE A FAMILY AGIN ...

BOTH PICTURES WILL BLOW THE WORLDS SMALL MINDS .... ;D

IST!

really the parents of the children are only children of there parents ... ;)

do you see what i see do

like i said i KNOW WHO I AM DO YOU ? :)

btw the 2 dots on the head of the staff are as ali says "BEADS" ....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 06, 2009, 12:44:02 PM

Great pix, ist.

It seems that Ali drew some DNA at the bottom of the staff with the 2 beads. Kids are soo amazing.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 06, 2009, 02:11:54 PM

thank you .. jeanna!!

children rock!!

one day soon this plannet wakes up .... :)

now alis pics are cool and all ... but ... take a BETTER LOOK AT SKYLAR'S PIC.... ;) ;D

i share cuz i care ...

theres your sm 17 ... center peice ... :D

ist!

btw my kids have not seen anything i have been working on in well over a year ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 06, 2009, 02:43:39 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on July 06, 2009, 02:11:54 PM
LOOK AT SKYLAR'S PIC.... ;) ;D

btw my kids have not seen anything i have been working on in well over a year ...

Oh yes! fabulous remote view!

He got how it looks
She got the essence.
So, they are your team.

Always ask the children, and remember to listen.
(I know you do, ist. I am just making the statement, maybe as a global reminder.)

waycool,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 06, 2009, 07:17:05 PM

@ist

have you made a JT with/on....
1 ferrite toroid
2 pickups
4 base coils
4 collector coils

???

What were your results? oh yah and I thinks its a rotational 2 phase shifter but I'm not sure ???

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 06, 2009, 09:50:18 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on July 05, 2009, 08:07:03 PM
I have been having troubles with my charger. It does charge one day and then it does not charge the next day.

About the negative configuration of the same thing I need to give it a thought in order to change the whole configuration to the negative side.

Who knows, it maybe works better on the negative side.

Jesus

OPpppsss

It looks like I made my Jesus charger wrong

It works good though.

:)

In the picture below I have marked the transistor connections

The red is the collector . ( the case of the 3055 )

The black is the emiter

The yellow is the base .......it goes to a switch at the bottom of my pot then through the pot .

The green line shows where I connect a cap if I want a tank .
If I have a cap at this location and a open the switch on the pot it keeps running in what I would call "charge mode "

The battery is not shown but it clips onto the same points as the Jesus charger .
( marked with a + and - )

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 06, 2009, 10:23:27 PM

Quote from: stprue on July 06, 2009, 07:17:05 PM
@ist

have you made a JT with/on....
1 ferrite toroid
2 pickups
4 base coils
4 collector coils

???

What were your results? oh yah and I thinks its a rotational 2 phase shifter but I'm not sure ???

no i never did ...

but your thinks ... sounds good to me ...

can you build 1 ? for everyone bro ?

i like the copper as it is a pump of cold or returned or the GOOD STUFF... that keeps getting kicked in the but ... with a gate keeper and a few squeeze coils ... plus it runs on a aaa ;D 8)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 06, 2009, 10:52:30 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on July 06, 2009, 09:50:18 PM

OPpppsss

It looks like I made my Jesus charger wrong

It works good though.

:)
The battery is not shown but it clips onto the same points as the Jesus charger .
( marked with a + and - )

gary

Don't you just LOVE IT when that happens?

So, if I understand this , you are connecting the charger which you made separately, in a way that is parallel to the battery?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 07, 2009, 12:10:44 AM

Quote from: jeanna on July 06, 2009, 10:52:30 PM
Don't you just LOVE IT when that happens?

So, if I understand this , you are connecting the charger which you made separately, in a way that is parallel to the battery?

jeanna

Jeanna

Yes I connect it in parrallel
As I tried to explain in my last post I connect the Jesus charger and the battery to the same points ....sometimes I clip the battery to one of the alligator clips of the Jesus charger .

I made it separate so I could use it on differerent boards or connect it in different ways .
It is very easy to see if it is helping ..... just unhook it .
So far everything I have tried has worked better with it than without .
As far as I can tell it converts part of the JTs pulses into feedback .

I have found it very handy to connect feedback wires to the cap on the Jesus charger ......I connect one wire from each feedback coil to each side of the charger ........That way I don;t have to add a bunch of extra diodes .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on July 07, 2009, 09:20:37 AM

Quote from: resonanceman on July 06, 2009, 09:50:18 PM

OPpppsss

It looks like I made my Jesus charger wrong

It works good though.
...
gary

You did not do it wrong it is a perfect replica of my circuit.
What it makes it special on tour hands is the addition of the negative connection to it, that I does not use on mine with a pulse motor connected.

So I dont have to rethink the circuit to the negative side whatsoever, just connect the circuit between the negative and the positive poles with the diodes cathode mark to the positive pole.

Thank you @resonanceman !

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 07, 2009, 11:33:59 AM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on July 07, 2009, 09:20:37 AM
You did not do it wrong it is a perfect replica of my circuit.
What it makes it special on tour hands is the addition of the negative connection to it, that I does not use on mine with a pulse motor connected.

So I dont have to rethink the circuit to the negative side whatsoever, just connect the circuit between the negative and the positive poles with the diodes cathode mark to the positive pole.

Thank you @resonanceman !

Jesus

Jesus

It was a screwup in a way because I did think I had it connected in the same way that you did .

I am glad that my screwup has helped you

:)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If I remember right you had a page of symbols for schematics .
Can you post that again ?

The last time I had not figured out how to use the separate symbols.

Thanks

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 07, 2009, 12:14:35 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on July 06, 2009, 10:23:27 PM
no i never did ...

but your thinks ... sounds good to me ...

can you build 1 ? for everyone bro ?

i like the copper as it is a pump of cold or returned or the GOOD STUFF... that keeps getting kicked in the but ... with a gate keeper and a few squeeze coils ... plus it runs on a aaa ;D 8)

ist!

I have already started. 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 07, 2009, 01:06:38 PM

Quote from: stprue on July 07, 2009, 12:14:35 PM
I have already started. 8)

So, what are you doing?

I believe this think tank works best when people think out loud. It also works best when we share all the stuff, successes and 'failures'.

I know you know this. It is just a statement.

So, what's new?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 07, 2009, 01:31:30 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 07, 2009, 01:06:38 PM
So, what are you doing?

I believe this think tank works best when people think out loud. It also works best when we share all the stuff, successes and 'failures'.

I know you know this. It is just a statement.

So, what's new?

jeanna

I usually like to make sure my ideas work before I post about them but ok....

I believe it's an altered tesla design atlerations by me on an original idea but I'm not sure I found the diagram somewhere in this forum like 6 or 8 months ago and I can't really remember if the diagram I have is further altered by the original member of the topic. hummmmm maybe it was that tesla patent 2277some numbers topic. The original is divided into 4 sections but it's actually only two that cross over to the other side of the coil kinda like the x2 but on a grander scale. Actuall picture an x2... the wires go to the other side for faster switching....now put the same set up at 90 degrees from the other....so 2 x2's with more windings....ok so my added idea would be to add in 4base coils and 4collector coils inbetween the 4 sections of the coil. I was also thinking that this could be set up mk style but was not going try that first. I will post some pic's of at least the 4 base/collector coils I have finished already but that's all I have done so far (this is on a biggo). I have been looking at the diagram and to me it is starting to look like it is set up wrong and each side would cancel out the other so I think I will make a small version of this before I start winding the biggo.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on July 07, 2009, 02:02:04 PM

xee2 said:

Quote
EDIT 2: the negative electrode glows

(With respect to Reply #7962 on this thread. refer to the picture.)
@all,
I'm glad I saw this. I didn't know this was possible! :o

One electrode only glowing?

I was an electronic technician and my Dad was a part-time electronic engineer in conjunction with his job as an aerospace engineer. I've seen typical neon bulbs experiencing AC current and glowing on both electrodes---not on only the negative electrode---both at once as usual.

Does anyone know how this is possible? The electrons are leaving the negative electrode, but where are they going after that??? They disappear? What else? The circuit works doesn't it? I know of no physical phenomenon that can do this.

Is there even a math explanation for this?

--Lee

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 07, 2009, 02:08:01 PM

@xee

Try the neon with out diode (diode makes it dc doesn't it !) neon work on ac.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 07, 2009, 04:03:20 PM

Quote from: stprue on July 07, 2009, 01:31:30 PM
... that tesla patent 2277some numbers topic. The original is divided into 4 sections but it's actually only two that cross over to the other side of the coil kinda like the x2 but on a grander scale.

I think it was Mark who made that drawing. The patent is all over this website. It is one I was thinking of playing with too.
In it, Tesla describes that he is making a rotating magnetic field and it is that movement that is what makes the thing so powerful... etc.

It is wound like the x2 primary, as far as I can see.
Wrapping over and to the right on one side then crossing and starting under and going to the left (or maybe the right) on the other side.
Then done again at 90 degrees from the first one.

Quote... so I think I will make a small version of this before I start winding the biggo.

8) :D
I agree. That will tell you a lot cheaply.

thanks for spilling the beans, I am looking forward to this.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on July 07, 2009, 06:25:27 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on July 07, 2009, 11:33:59 AM
Jesus

It was a screwup in a way because I did think I had it connected in the same way that you did .

I am glad that my screwup has helped you

:)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If I remember right you had a page of symbols for schematics .
Can you post that again ?

The last time I had not figured out how to use the separate symbols.

Thanks

gary

The symbols schematics is right here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6942.msg161201#msg161201
@pirate posted it as reference.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 07, 2009, 07:18:49 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on July 07, 2009, 06:25:27 PM
The symbols schematics is right here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6942.msg161201#msg161201
@pirate posted it as reference.

Jesus

Thanks Jesus

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 07, 2009, 07:37:02 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 07, 2009, 04:03:20 PM
I think it was Mark who made that drawing. The patent is all over this website. It is one I was thinking of playing with too.
In it, Tesla describes that he is making a rotating magnetic field and it is that movement that is what makes the thing so powerful... etc.

It is wound like the x2 primary, as far as I can see.
Wrapping over and to the right on one side then crossing and starting under and going to the left (or maybe the right) on the other side.
Then done again at 90 degrees from the first one.
8) :D
I agree. That will tell you a lot cheaply.

thanks for spilling the beans, I am looking forward to this.

jeanna

Yes you described the idea much better then my quickly typed babbles. Thank you. Let me know if you find the pic...if not I will scan it and post at some point.

Here is the biggo I was telling you about and the tesla aspect would be made inbetween these base/collector sections, but like I mentioned I will make a small one.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 07, 2009, 07:40:16 PM

@Jeanna

oh yah I forgot to mention firefox is working better here for me ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 07, 2009, 08:18:04 PM

looks verry nice stpure .. but that is to be expected ... lol

now cuz i am the villliage idiot lol can some one help me with a super simple transistor pulser with a cap that fils and drains ... and cauzes the timeing of the transistor to switch ...

if ya know what i mean ...

i want to use a small transistor to pulse slowly and i in reward for this will teach you some thing you will like ...

ist

as well your design will be used with mine ... ;) ;)

this is pnp switching on my 2 10 640 1" now look at how i tuned it ....it is not tuned to ac sine waves it is not tuned to highest peek voltage .... it is TUNNED TO THE most RIPPLES AFTER THE WAVE... WITH A 1K POT and this coil i can only tune in to 3 peeks ..... ok

;)

just cuz a single pules kick is getting OLD and BORINGGGGGGGG... :D

take a look at these scope shots .....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 07, 2009, 08:51:59 PM

@ the_big_m_in_ok & Mk1

Quote from: the_big_m_in_ok on July 07, 2009, 02:02:04 PM
Does anyone know how this is possible? The electrons are leaving the negative electrode, but where are they going after that??? They disappear? What else? The circuit works doesn't it? I know of no physical phenomenon that can do this.

Neon bulbs are DC devices. Only the negative electrode glows. When driven with AC the glowing electrode changes back and forth 60 time a second (too fast to see). Glow is caused by electrons jumping between states in the neon gas.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 07, 2009, 09:06:04 PM

xee2,
I have been wanting to ask you about halogen bulbs.
What is required for a halogen bulb to turn on?
I looked it up and all I found was places to buy one!
I am sure they are made to work at 120vac, but is there not a transformer of some kind?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 07, 2009, 09:07:49 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 07, 2009, 09:06:04 PM
xee2,
I have been wanting to ask you about halogen bulbs.
What is required for a halogen bulb to turn on?
I looked it up and all I found was places to buy one!
I am sure they are made to work at 120vac, but is there not a transformer of some kind?

thank you,

jeanna

stop peeking in on me .... :D ;D

i have a unit right here ...

want a picture of it .... lol

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Thaelin on July 07, 2009, 09:18:46 PM

Jenna:
Hallogen is another type of filament type. You can run them on ac or dc. I have them for headlight in my van. Brighter than normal lights. Draw a lot more amps too. The old fog lamps were halogen too. Now they have GD or gas discharge.

thay

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 07, 2009, 09:19:42 PM

@jeanna
you can get 12V halogen lamps in the auto section of most superboxmarts. off the top of my head i think they need about 4-5 amps to 'fully' light. hope that helps.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 07, 2009, 09:34:44 PM

Thanks Thaelin and wilby,[

quote author=WilbyInebriated link=topic=6123.msg190053#msg190053 date=1247015982]
@jeanna
you can get 12V halogen lamps in the auto section ..
[/quote]
Right, but will they blow with more?
...or is there a resistor for the 12 volt?
I am thinking of trying one in a jtc of course, but there would be no learning if I just popped the bulb at the first shot, you know like about 24 of the leds in my trash bucket. ;) ... so I am asking first. I will try, I guess. My son had one he liked for reading which was low wattage, but I suspect the high pitched hum was a ringing coil of some sort...

thank you,

jeanna

I need to go to a birthday party so bye for now. I will check back at 9 or 10 PST...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on July 07, 2009, 09:36:42 PM

xee2 said:

Quote
Neon bulbs are DC devices. ... Glow is caused by electrons jumping between states in the neon gas.
Only the negative electrode glows. ...

Okay, now I know. It was never explained to me.

I have some parts I bought at Radio Shack and found some more. But, I'm still without a job and the freedom and privacy in an apartment of my own. But that could always change.

If it does, I was going to take one of the many schematics on this lengthy :o ;D thread (800 pgs. and counting!) and try to observe the effects of several---or many---toroids have on EMF in a low voltage circuit (for safety reasons). I've felt only a moderate line voltage shock in the past and that still didn't feel good!!!!

Low voltage should give a fairly good indication of what's going on in terms of power generated or consumed. I have a digital VOM to measure with, although I've never experimented with one before. I only used analog ones in the past.

--Lee

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 07, 2009, 09:42:16 PM

this is what i found so far ...

hummmm

1hz

http://www.discovercircuits.com/DJ-Circuits/3na-osc.htm

getting better here is 12 -13 peeks..... all i did was change the transistor ... 2n5871

now ill just use the 1$ flasher from ramma for my switches .. for the second freq ........

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 07, 2009, 09:44:35 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on July 07, 2009, 08:18:04 PM
looks verry nice stpure .. but that is to be expected ... lol

now cuz i am the villliage idiot lol can some one help me with a super simple transistor pulser with a cap that fils and drains ... and cauzes the timeing of the transistor to switch ...

if ya know what i mean ...

i want to use a small transistor to pulse slowly and i in reward for this will teach you some thing you will like ...

ist

as well your design will be used with mine ... ;) ;)

this is pnp switching on my 2 10 640 1" now look at how i tuned it ....it is not tuned to ac sine waves it is not tuned to highest peek voltage .... it is TUNNED TO THE most RIPPLES AFTER THE WAVE... WITH A 1K POT and this coil i can only tune in to 3 peeks ..... ok

;)

just cuz a single pules kick is getting OLD and BORINGGGGGGGG... :D

take a look at these scope shots .....

Well a simple solution would be to use a 555ic set to pulse slowly, use POTs to adjust to whatever rate you want! I kinda sounds like you might be doing this but I'm not sure so... well...just in case here!!!

Stew

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 07, 2009, 09:53:54 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 07, 2009, 09:34:44 PM
Thanks Thaelin and wilby,[

quote author=WilbyInebriated link=topic=6123.msg190053#msg190053 date=1247015982]
@jeanna
you can get 12V halogen lamps in the auto section ..

Right, but will they blow with more?
...or is there a resistor for the 12 volt?
I am thinking of trying one in a jtc of course, but there would be no learning if I just popped the bulb at the first shot, you know like about 24 of the leds in my trash bucket. ;) ... so I am asking first. I will try, I guess. My son had one he liked for reading which was low wattage, but I suspect the high pitched hum was a ringing coil of some sort...

thank you,

jeanna

I need to go to a birthday party so bye for now. I will check back at 9 or 10 PST...

you can run a lot of voltage/little amperage into them without worry of blowing. but you will be lucky to get the slightest glow on the resistive filament without amps. give it a go though, try the jtc, or the fugi, anything you got. it's a good experiment. pull one (a lamp) from the car headlight if you can.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 07, 2009, 10:09:53 PM

@ All:

I see that my friend Wilby has just posted the 8,000th post here on our topic. Congratulations everyone on a great topic and I want to thank everyone for their hard work and experiments here. I still believe we are setting a great example for others on forums all over the world by the way we all conduct ourselves here.

Thanks once again to all of you that have taught me so much. It is a debt that I cannot repay.

Thank you to everyone.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 07, 2009, 10:21:34 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on November 20, 2008, 03:07:58 AM
Can anyone of you electronics guys answer a question for me concerning the Joule Thief? OK my question is this:
The plans I have call for a 1k resistor. From everything I have learned in electronics thus far, resistors limit the flow and dissipate overage as heat. This seems wasteful to me since the idea of this device is to improve efficiency, as in use all or most of the available energy in a battery or similar system. I am wondering why the resistor is needed? If it gets "warm" at all it is wasting power correct? Is this required to protect the transistor?

I would really appreciate any input here as this is my first Joule Thief. I know they have been around a while and I have a pretty good idea on how they work, at least in relation to the lighting of LEDs. I am also going to experiment with these using supercaps as the power source both with, and without batteries. This will all be tied into my work with earth batteries from which I can already light an LED.

If I need the resistor to protect the transistor, then fine, that's the way it is. It just seems a little counter intuitive from my limited electronics knowledge at this point. Thank you.

Bill

OK, so I am feeling a little nostalgic tonight. This was my very first post here opening up our topic. Just think of how far we have come since this first post.

I have had a lot of folks thanking me for starting this topic but, it is not me, it is all of you that have made it what it is.

Thanks once again to everyone!!!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 07, 2009, 10:24:14 PM

Quote from: stprue on July 07, 2009, 09:44:35 PM
Well a simple solution would be to use a 555ic set to pulse slowly, use POTs to adjust to whatever rate you want! I kinda sounds like you might be doing this but I'm not sure so... well...just in case here!!!

Stew

i was hopeing for some thing with out chips only a cap and transistor tiny .....just to start and stop the flow in line at a slow rate .. but easly adjustable by changeing the cap

ist

just like a 12 v dc flasher ... but for 1.5 v without a relay

this one showen will work for a much scaled up unit .... and i could just change the cap ... but i dont want to BLOW THINGS UP RIGHT NOW .... SO I WILL STICK WITH REAL LOW VOLTAGE AND REALLY SIMPLE ....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 07, 2009, 11:04:38 PM

@Bill

Thank you Bill for starting the topic, and congrats to everyone 800 is prity agood innings.
I have learnt so much from it. :D

jim

@Innovation_station,

Using indicator flasher units.

Quote from: innovation_station on July 07, 2009, 10:24:14 PM
i was hopeing for some thing with out chips only a cap and transistor tiny .....just to start and stop the flow in line at a slow rate .. but easly adjustable by changeing the cap

ist

just like a 12 v dc flasher ... but for 1.5 v without a relay

this one showen will work for a much scaled up unit .... and i could just change the cap ... but i dont want to BLOW THINGS UP RIGHT NOW .... SO I WILL STICK WITH REAL LOW VOLTAGE AND REALLY SIMPLE ....

These things are designed to run at 12v DC (although there are 24v units also), the old style used a bimetal heat plate to flash, it relied on two 21watt bulbs to set the speed of the flash rate.

That said, the newer ones went electronic, the flash rate could be varied by swapping the resistor for a pot, and put different value caps.
Now how would I know that, we are not supposed to tamper with them lol. ;)

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Thaelin on July 07, 2009, 11:08:33 PM

Pirate:
I did a couple of hours rummaging through the different threads here and it looks like you hold the trophy for the longest thread ever. At the rate it is going it looks like you will hit the 1000 page mark too. Is there a prize for an over unity thread any one????????

;D

thay

Quote from: Pirate88179 on July 07, 2009, 10:21:34 PM
OK, so I am feeling a little nostalgic tonight. This was my very first post here opening up our topic. Just think of how far we have come since this first post.

I have had a lot of folks thanking me for starting this topic but, it is not me, it is all of you that have made it what it is.

Thanks once again to everyone!!!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 08, 2009, 01:12:01 AM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on July 07, 2009, 09:34:44 PM
I am thinking of trying one in a jtc of course, ...

I think Thaelin answered your question. But would not be good for JT. They are a filament bulb that are brighter because they are at much higher temperatures than normal bulbs. To get high temperature they need high current. That means high battery drain. You might try xeon flashlight bulbs. But you will still have high battery drain problem.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 08, 2009, 03:08:40 AM

Thanks Thaelin, Wilby and xee2,

I thought halogens were not a filament lamp. I thought they were a gas I guess because of the name.

The last time I tried a flashlight bulb it did nothing. I think that may have been around 120 volts. I could try something higher voltage now to see.

Probably my best approach will be to get into the diffuser part of this and make a really bright but not blinding light with leds, because if I can do that, I will have much more light for the battery. The spotlight quality of the led is something that I think needs proper diffusion for it to be able to take the place of a tube or cfl.

I'm tired.

night all,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 08, 2009, 03:33:36 AM

Jeanna:

I read somewhere a while back, that filament bulbs were neither AC or DC. They will light under the right conditions with either power. But, after my joule thief experiments, I found that they take (in our world) a tremendous amount of power to heat the filament. Kind of like your toaster analogy or a water heater or an oven.

That is what fascinated me about the Georgian guy because he was lighting all of those filament bulbs from a starting power from the earth. I knew right then that he had real power and not like my experience with the earth batteries.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 08, 2009, 11:55:17 AM

@Jeanna

Room3327
Jr. Member

Posts: 86

Re: Tesla Patent 382282, and all related to his transformers/converters
Â« Reply #45 on: March 19, 2009, 06:16:40 PM Â»Quote Here is the correct way to wire the field coils if you actually want a rotating field. Wired the way I show in the schematic above it will not rotate or work.
Yes, robbie47, copper coated steel welding rod works pretty good for a core in transformers. But this is not insulated remember so eddy currents can form unless varnished or insulated. I used it as is for this.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 08, 2009, 01:06:02 PM

@Jeanna/MK

After looking at this pic for quite some time I see that it could only be done with 4 separate wires or 2 wires crossing low (not x2 per say) kind of like an upside down peramid. Do you see any other ways to do this? As is it looks like each side would cancell out the other!

???

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 08, 2009, 01:15:10 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 08, 2009, 03:08:40 AM

I thought halogens were not a filament lamp. I thought they were a gas I guess because of the name.

Jeanna

they used to be called quarts halogen
Quarts because normal glass could not take the heat .

You are right .......the name is because of a gas
The advantages of haolgen bulbs over regular bulbs is because of the gas
There is what is called the halogen cycle ,
If the bulb is operated at a high enough temperature the tungsten that boils off the filament is redeposited on the filament rather than on the inner surface of the bulb.
The dark patches near the ends of old floro tubes is tungsten that used to be part of the filaments

I hope that you have enjoyed this useless information

:)

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 08, 2009, 01:41:24 PM

Quote from: stprue on July 08, 2009, 11:55:17 AM
@Jeanna

Room3327
Jr. Member

Posts: 86

Re: Tesla Patent 382282, and all related to his transformers/converters
Â« Reply #45 on: March 19, 2009, 06:16:40 PM Â»Quote Here is the correct way to wire the field coils if you actually want a rotating field. Wired the way I show in the schematic above it will not rotate or work.
Yes, robbie47, copper coated steel welding rod works pretty good for a core in transformers. But this is not insulated remember so eddy currents can form unless varnished or insulated. I used it as is for this.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HHhhhmmmm

Doesn't this coil look like 2 JT primarys wound on the same toroid?
It is a little beyond me .......but could someone set up 2 JTs to work kind of like a push pull amp ?

I am not very good at seeing what direction the magneitc fields will go or what direction the curretent will flow .
If the coil was set up as 2 JTs would the output from one be positive feedback for the other ?

If it can ge wired for positive feedback it may end up being a simple TPU

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 08, 2009, 01:45:28 PM

@Bill,
Did you ever get close enough to see a glow with your experiments?
How high was the voltage?

@Stprue
I can see how that can be done looking like x2.
[but the x2 must be split and made in 2 parts at 90 degrees from each other.]
and it needs 2 wires which means 4 ends. BUT, what if you connected the beginning of one to the end of the other and used this as a substitute for your bifilar primary?
If you create the rotating mag field, which is what that patent was about, then the secondary of almost any configuration should reflect this.

I may try it with a real toroid, or maybe just continue the discussion with a pic of one made on that bad blue. [At least it is photogenic :D even if it can't do any real work! beautiful but dumb... 'dumb blue' ;D ]

@Gary,
Thank you. I think this is useful information for us.
EDIT

QuoteHHhhhmmmm

Doesn't this coil look like 2 JT primarys wound on the same toroid?
It is a little beyond me .......but could someone set up 2 JTs to work kind of like a push pull amp ?

This is exactly what I meant. You posted while I was typing.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 08, 2009, 01:49:37 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on July 08, 2009, 01:41:24 PM
HHhhhmmmm

Doesn't this coil look like 2 JT primarys wound on the same toroid?
It is a little beyond me .......but could someone set up 2 JTs to work kind of like a push pull amp ?

I am not very good at seeing what direction the magneitc fields will go or what direction the curretent will flow .
If the coil was set up as 2 JTs would the output from one be positive feedback for the other ?

If it can ge wired for positive feedback it may end up being a simple TPU

gary

That's my impression of this as well 2 JT on 1 coil creating a spinning field and boosting performance.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 08, 2009, 01:55:57 PM

@Jeanna

Please try to build this as my idea is a little different so we could rule out the wrong way to build this quickly...Ihave a feeling the right way would be worth the effort ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 08, 2009, 02:01:17 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 08, 2009, 01:45:28 PM
@Bill,
Did you ever get close enough to see a glow with your experiments?
How high was the voltage?

Jeanna

I think a way to get a regular lightbulb to work may be to make a stong high voltage JT then step it down to lower voltage .....kind of like what people were suggesting I do by feeding my MOT JT into another MOT
My MOT JT was not powerfull enough ....the second MOT choked it .

I do not think it really matters how much voltage you have with a regular bulb ........what matters is the current .

Quote

@Gary,
Thank you. I think this is useful information for us.
EDITThis is exactly what I meant. You posted while I was typing.

jeanna

Type faster next time :)

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 08, 2009, 02:08:47 PM

Quote from: stprue on July 08, 2009, 01:49:37 PM
That's my impression of this as well 2 JT on 1 coil creating a spinning field and boosting performance.

Stprue

Great :)

We might have something here .

I think IST and MK are the "experts " at visualising the magnetic fields and current flows ...........maybe they can answer my question about posative feedback

I am thinking if the JTs have posative feedback they will keep each other in sync.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 08, 2009, 02:15:15 PM

Quote from: stprue on July 08, 2009, 01:55:57 PM
@Jeanna

Please try to build this as my idea is a little different so we could rule out the wrong way to build this quickly...Ihave a feeling the right way would be worth the effort ;D

Good point.
I will do this.

Anybody else want to jump into the pool? ;)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 08, 2009, 02:28:29 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 08, 2009, 02:15:15 PM
Good point.
I will do this.

Anybody else want to jump into the pool? ;)

jeanna

Nice....

I have mapped out 2 different ideas on a printed out sheet..I will scan it tonight and post both ideas...I honestly see like 4 or 6 other ways to wind this kind of design.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 08, 2009, 02:29:49 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on July 08, 2009, 02:08:47 PM

Stprue

Great :)

We might have something here .

I think IST and MK are the "experts " at visualising the magnetic fields and current flows ...........maybe they can answer my question about posative feedback

I am thinking if the JTs have posative feedback they will keep each other in sync.

gary

Yes you are right. I can't remember you have the right hand rule for + is it the left hand rule for -???

IST

MK

H E L P S O S

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 08, 2009, 02:49:20 PM

Quote from: stprue on July 08, 2009, 02:29:49 PM
Yes you are right. I can't remember you have the right hand rule for + is it the left hand rule for -???

IST

MK

H E L P S O S

Stprue

I think it is the left hand rule .
That alone does not help me .

It is an intelectual rule .
I can intellectually work thought it but I will not really understand it until I SEE it .
My process is visual rather than intellectual .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 08, 2009, 02:54:56 PM

@all

This is old stuff but there it goes .

The 4 jt coils are made of 12 turns of 22 gauge bell wire. There is also two secondaries of 24 turns up and down over each half.

If my memory is correct i got about 70 volts per secondaries .

Now this showed me that sending 2 kicks in one toroid is not that simple because the pulse from one can trigger other transistor out of time even if they are not connected to battery , i tested with one led on each side i can remove any one of the two transistor and the circuits keeps going both led are really bright.

the yellow and red work together and blue and green work the other transistor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 08, 2009, 02:59:35 PM

Does it work well? output?

I had a different idea I still want to try but this does clear things up!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 08, 2009, 03:09:54 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on July 08, 2009, 02:54:56 PM
@all

This is old stuff but there it goes .

The 4 jt coils are made of 12 turns of 22 gauge bell wire. There is also two secondaries of 24 turns up and down over each half.

If my memory is correct i got about 70 volts per secondaries .

Now this showed me that sending 2 kicks in one toroid is not that simple because the pulse from one can trigger other transistor out of time even if they are not connected to battery , i tested with one led on each side i can remove any one of the two transistor and the circuits keeps going both led are really bright.

So, perhaps, you made a more complicated diagram than you needed. It looks as if only one transistor is needed.

I am glad you did this, Mark. It helps us now that you had some experience from before.

I will try it with the ends connected as I mentioned above and a secondary as well. It will be wired like a BJT with secondary.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 08, 2009, 03:10:24 PM

@stprue

I have edited a bit my last post.

But there is no simple answer here , yes it works good , 70 volts per side is not that much today , but when a did it it was for me an achievement , i still have it around .

There is much more to be learned , i believe now there is a way to make it into a PMH like ED , that would mean you pulse the coil once the energy get stored in the coil and run in orbit until it get discharged , but now what would a secondary do on a charged toroid .

Example of PMH http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aOaFO6D0U4&feature=channel_page

Also in the one i have built the yellow and red work together and blue and green the other.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on July 08, 2009, 03:25:02 PM

the battery charging from a joule thief should be explored more on a chemical side, i personally dont know enough about chemistry to do so does anyone else?

while floating around the internet i found a "desulfator" which uses IC's namely the 555 timer and sells for 90 bux. this unit refurbishes a battery when it gets the white crystals on the lead electrodes. it cleans the battery by sending high voltage (35 volts for a 12v car battery) pulses into the battery cleaning the sulfides off the electrodes and allowing them to be properly consumed during the recharging of the battery. i myself have burried many a battery before finding this out but i have many batteries both lead acid and other to experiment with!

the joule thief can easily be used as a desulfator if the LED is removed and a (shotskies?) diode of 35v and the battery added in its place.

im personally exploring this application now i just need to find the right diode :) there is much to be read about this online however if one is interested.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 08, 2009, 03:29:32 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on July 08, 2009, 03:10:24 PM
@stprue

I have edited a bit my last post.

But there is no simple answer here , yes it works good , 70 volts per side is not that much today , but when a did it it was for me an achievement , i still have it around .

There is much more to be learned , i believe now there is a way to make it into a PMH like ED , that would mean you pulse the coil once the energy get stored in the coil and run in orbit until it get discharged , but now what would a secondary do on a charged toroid .

Example of PMH http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aOaFO6D0U4&feature=channel_page

Also in the one i have built the yellow and red work together and blue and green the other.

Thank you Mark for the excellent infos and video like. I wasn't thinking it could sore energy like that...very interesting. Now what would happen if you continue to pulse it? Would it increase in rotational speed and energy. It kinda sounds like some weird self inductor or something...

Time to build!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 08, 2009, 03:45:27 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on July 08, 2009, 02:54:56 PM
@all

This is old stuff but there it goes .

The 4 jt coils are made of 12 turns of 22 gauge bell wire. There is also two secondaries of 24 turns up and down over each half.

If my memory is correct i got about 70 volts per secondaries .

Now this showed me that sending 2 kicks in one toroid is not that simple because the pulse from one can trigger other transistor out of time even if they are not connected to battery , i tested with one led on each side i can remove any one of the two transistor and the circuits keeps going both led are really bright.

the yellow and red work together and blue and green work the other transistor.

MK

This may be old to you .......but it is new to me :)

I do remember seeing your winding configuration picture when I was new here .
It was way beyond me at that time .

Did you try hooking the coils up in other ways ? such as Red/Blue then yellow /

green?

I am not sure that yellow /red blue / green would make a rotating field

I am glad to hear that the feedback from one is enough to drive the other .
My feeling is that it might be possible to run it with just one transitor .......but that may defeat the purpose . In my opinion the 2nd JT would mostly be just flyback coils .

I think the rotating field is the key ..... I think if we can get the coils to fire in sequence around the toroid we will have it .

gary

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 08, 2009, 03:56:31 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on July 08, 2009, 03:45:27 PM
MK

This may be old to you .......but it is new to me :)

I do remember seeing your winding configuration picture when I was new here .
It was way beyond me at that time .

Did you try hooking the coils up in other ways ? such as Red/Blue then yellow /

green?

I am not sure that yellow /red blue / green would make a rotating field

I am glad to hear that the feedback from one is enough to drive the other .
My feeling is that it might be possible to run it with just one transitor .......but that may defeat the purpose . In my opinion the 2nd JT would mostly be just flyback coils .

I think the rotating field is the key ..... I think if we can get the coils to fire in sequence around the toroid we will have it .

gary

gary

hi Gary . actually i still have the unit here , back then i did not use my project board , i committed to the board before finishing and testing it , so i did not make any type of test or tried to improve on it .

I will fish it out , just to ma sure the coil are connected as i remembered .

Mark

Edit i also have a really good idea for a single transistor with 3 jt pairs of coil at 120 degrees , fired by a 1v motor switcher , so you switch on one pair at the time first freq , but the jt transistor has its own freq so the second freq is there , plus you get a bigger kick form the on of for the coil (one the motor) , so you get on kick on off and many kicks form the transistor , then go 120 away repeat then the 120 to complete the 360 , lets say the motor runs a 5000 rpm so 5000 hz , humm .

Now with only one coil on at a time the other two can be use to fill a caps on there of times .

I will draw it ...

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 08, 2009, 03:56:34 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on July 08, 2009, 03:45:27 PM

Did you try hooking the coils up in other ways ? such as Red/Blue then yellow /

green?

I am not sure that yellow /red blue / green would make a rotating field

I am glad to hear that the feedback from one is enough to drive the other .
My feeling is that it might be possible to run it with just one transitor .......but that may defeat the purpose . In my opinion the 2nd JT would mostly be just flyback coils .

I think the rotating field is the key ..... I think if we can get the coils to fire in sequence around the toroid we will have it .

MK

nevermind

:)

I now see that trying to use the 4 coils one at a time in series would be like running a 4 cycle engine . we would have to stop the pulse from every other cycle from triggering a transistor .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 08, 2009, 04:04:08 PM

@ Jeanna:

Yes, I did get the filament bulb to glow, but that was about all it did. I was using a car tail light bulb (GE 1157) designed for 12 volts. I was hitting it with about 9 volts and got a little glow.

I believe Gary is correct in what he said. These need amps to light and I was hitting it with mA's. I imagine they are just about like resistance heaters (electric ranges, ovens, water heaters, etc) which need amps.

One thing I never did try was to hit a 12 volt bulb with about 400 volts from the Fuji. I doubt it would do much of anything. I might try it for the heck of it anyway.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 08, 2009, 04:20:36 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on July 08, 2009, 04:04:08 PM
@ Jeanna:

Yes, I did get the filament bulb to glow, but that was about all it did. I was using a car tail light bulb (GE 1157) designed for 12 volts. I was hitting it with about 9 volts and got a little glow.

I believe Gary is correct in what he said. These need amps to light and I was hitting it with mA's. I imagine they are just about like resistance heaters (electric ranges, ovens, water heaters, etc) which need amps.

One thing I never did try was to hit a 12 volt bulb with about 400 volts from the Fuji. I doubt it would do much of anything. I might try it for the heck of it anyway.

Bill

Bill

I tried several of my JTs that easily lit a CFL on a 40W 110V bulb ......nothing .....not even a glow .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 08, 2009, 04:53:15 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on July 08, 2009, 03:25:02 PM
the battery charging from a joule thief should be explored more on a chemical side, i personally dont know enough about chemistry to do so does anyone else?

while floating around the internet i found a "desulfator" which uses IC's namely the 555 timer and sells for 90 bux. this unit refurbishes a battery when it gets the white crystals on the lead electrodes. it cleans the battery by sending high voltage (35 volts for a 12v car battery) pulses into the battery cleaning the sulfides off the electrodes and allowing them to be properly consumed during the recharging of the battery. i myself have burried many a battery before finding this out but i have many batteries both lead acid and other to experiment with!

the joule thief can easily be used as a desulfator if the LED is removed and a (shotskies?) diode of 35v and the battery added in its place.

im personally exploring this application now i just need to find the right diode :) there is much to be read about this online however if one is interested.

Artic_Knight

You do not need a special diode ..... I have used a diode bridge for years

I bought this years ago .
http://www.eagle-research.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=35
This guy is open source ...... I think he is worth supporting.
in his booklet he explains how to build a capacitive charger how to use it and why you will never see a charger like this in a store .

It is real simple ...... just a cap and a bridge ..........but you need to know what is going on and how to use it .

I use 4uF for reconditioning my car battery . ....

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 08, 2009, 05:08:27 PM

It is possible that I have learned more than I thought I have.

There were several coils of wire in the TPU
I have always thought that one of them was iron . I still do
Iron would make a pretty good toroid core .

I have learned that a little to much inductance will choke a current to almost nothing real quick .
It now seems to me that the outer windings on a TPU that SM called control coils are there to add inductance if to much current starts to flow the outer coils will kick in and slow things down .
A space between the power coils and the control coils would let a certian amount of power to be generated before the inductance of the control coils kick in .

The other coils on either side of the iron coil may be just copper wire .
I am thinking that with a rotating mag field current would be set up in these windings ........they may " charge " like MK talked about a few posts back .

The JT might be a good way to provide the kick that SM was talking about ......if we can just get the rotation right .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 08, 2009, 05:21:54 PM

@gary

Yes the jt is great for learning its a must ... now the tpu may have iron inside of it or a single copper loop for a closed core type deal , but mostly what we see as a core in the tpu is the collector , pulses creating rotation but mainly a single direction flow (dc).

But now we can all get the picture , :D

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 08, 2009, 05:39:55 PM

Woah, this thread is hopping today!

@Bill,
I was afraid of that . the toaster problem...

@All,
I have been away just now building.
I first wound the primary, I will call it, just like the drawing MK1 provided with the 4 colors.
It would not turn on a led in the BJTL spot no matter which ones I combined together etc.

I have been wanting to use that .x2 configuration MK1 did and make it at 90 degree angles instead of 180. So, I did that...

But... I made a mistake.
I will report this then go fix it so it is what I intended.

this is a very good looking wave. With the BJTL in place it is better, but still without it. It is a very even wave and oh nice.

I probably cannot describe it without a pic, but just in case.

The collector wire:
Red starts in the 3 oclock position it goes over the core to the center and progresses to 4 oclock. It over the core and across the center then winding under the core at 9 oclock, progresses to 10 and comes out from under. This end goes into the +

Now this has the 'mistake' in my mind:
Green the other +
starts at 12 and over through center and progresses to 11, then crosses through the center to under at 6 oclock and progresses to 7 oclock coming out from under and connecting to the Base resistor. [edit. instead of progressing to 7 it should be progressing to 5 oclock]

the jt alone without secondary; tuned for highest voltage had a resistor value of:
122ohm and had
153KHz
4.95v
with the light in place.

I left the resistor unchanged and added turns. I had 12 turns for the primary and I wanted to add more turns than 12 so at

14T and 1 led in the BJTL spot (measuring across leads of secondary)
6v
222KHz
122r

removing the BJTL
14 turns it was showing (measuring across the leads of the secondary)
16v
256KHz
122r

Still no BJTL, but with 3 leds in series (measuring across leads of secondary)
9.38v
263KHz
122r

OK. Now I need to change the green so the second half of its winding goes in the opposite way from its first half as the red one does..

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 08, 2009, 05:48:00 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on July 08, 2009, 05:21:54 PM
@gary

Yes the jt is great for learning its a must ... now the tpu may have iron inside of it or a single copper loop for a closed core type deal , but mostly what we see as a core in the tpu is the collector , pulses creating rotation but mainly a single direction flow (dc).

But now we can all get the picture , :D

Mark

Mark

I remember seeing a picture of a piece of a TPU that was cut up after a demonstration ....... it looked like 3 coils to me ..... and there was something that looked like cork .

I think the cork was above and below the coils but I can;t remember for sure.

I need to get working on a higher voltage JT

I have always that that one of the keys to radiant energy is high voltage ........another is fast rate of change .
I think that the reason that SM suggested starting with vacuum tubes is they put out higher voltage .
The propper kick would be easier to achieve with vacuum tubes than it would with transistors .

I agree about the DC
I see the magnetic field having a " squeezing " affect on the copper coils in the core . .....this squeezed area pushes the charge along . If this is true the TPU generates its power by rotation not normal transformer effect .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 08, 2009, 05:58:47 PM

Hi
I was just editing my post and I see this about dc

The pulsed dc is not the same as dc from a battery. We know this.

I think we need to be consistent, here, Tesla made the distinction between
"steady" dc and
pulsed dc

these were the BIG differences; and when he referred to the pulses he put them into the same category as AC. At least he did in the lectures I have been reading from 1892.

3 pm lunch time!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 08, 2009, 06:11:41 PM

If I am right about the rotation thing .......some of the people here might have the right kind of coil for the job.

I didn't make a coil gun .......but I know some of you did .
What are the coils for a coil gun like >
Could a similar coil be made for the collector coil of a JT ?
It seems to me that they would give a pretty good kick.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 08, 2009, 06:15:34 PM

@all

I must stress this a bit concerning the mk4 tesla toy , the use of the coil and transistor .

First the coil are each 12 turns , the drawing is not exact for turns but is for winding direction .

OK now the transistor one is pnp and the other is npn , now i tell you this because the first time i did not use the regular 2222 or 3904 i made a jt that did not work unless i reversed the battery poles , so the negative is the common to both jt coil . That way i found it easy to have 2 jt one pulling from ground and the other from the plus pole .

And this is how i build it ,worked right away that was my third jt so the pickup coil can be improved quite a bit base resistor value also ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 08, 2009, 06:23:19 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 08, 2009, 05:58:47 PM
Hi
I was just editing my post and I see this about dc

The pulsed dc is not the same as dc from a battery. We know this.

I think we need to be consistent, here, Tesla made the distinction between
"steady" dc and
pulsed dc

these were the BIG differences; and when he referred to the pulses he put them into the same category as AC. At least he did in the lectures I have been reading from 1892.

3 pm lunch time!

jeanna

Jeanna

I agree

Pulsed DC is very similar to AC

Pulsed DC can have a rate of change that is similar to AC
Pure DC has no rate of change ..

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 08, 2009, 06:45:46 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on July 08, 2009, 06:15:34 PM
@all

I must stress this a bit concerning the mk4 tesla toy , the use of the coil and transistor .

First the coil are each 12 turns , the drawing is not exact for turns but is for winding direction .

OK now the transistor one is pnp and the other is npn , now i tell you this because the first time i did not use the regular 2222 or 3904 i made a jt that did not work unless i reversed the battery poles , so the negative is the common to both jt coil . That way i found it easy to have 2 jt one pulling from ground and the other from the plus pole .

And this is how i build it ,worked right away that was my third jt so the pickup coil can be improved quite a bit base resistor value also ...

Thanks Mark

I see on my data sheet that MJ2955 is the PNP equivilent to the 3055
That would be my first choice .

Abra electronics has them

It is possible that tip2955 and tip3055 might be easier to find.
it looks to me like they are the same transistirs in a newer package .
The data sheet seems to be about the same ........ I have the Motorola data sheet .
Near the bottom it says .
NOTE: For additional design curves, refer to electrical characteristics curves of 2N3055.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 08, 2009, 07:13:41 PM

@gary

I usually recycle most of my part , back then i had those transistor form a printer they are made to driving step motor . I think they are dc to dc converter also. they come in matched pairs .

I did not make one from regular parts yet.

There is also the tri-cycle i made , with 3 jt at 120 degrees , i will give out more detail when we get there .

Mark

Thanks gary i will go get some Abra is not to far from here.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 08, 2009, 08:33:28 PM

OK I made those changes and it is better.

Plus there is another benefit.
Even though the voltage across unloaded secondary was only 1v higher, the secondary supported many more leds.

For example the other one was moderately bright with
3 leds and the voltage across them was
9.38v

On this configuration with
7 leds at about the same brightness, the voltage across them was
14.4-15.8v
If I 'stood back' and saw more of the wave, there was this enormous wave of the peaks of the waves themselves. That is what was fluctuating from 14.5-15.8v .

This configuration tuned to a different resistance for the highest voltage and just to be sure I was comparing similar circuits except for the winding, I put the resistor back to 122r and the lights went dimmer and the voltage was about the same as with the other configuration.

Therefore,

I really cannot say anything about which one is better, because if I compare the numbers with the new one with 122ohm resistor the voltage across the C-E is 5.5v

OOPS EDIT
The voltage across C-E with the BJTLed in place,
the frequency is 250khz where with the other one, the voltage was the same but the frequency was 153khz
which is why ...

The new one did tune to a higher voltage with the lower resistor, so I will stick with this. Anyway it was my idea to do this in the first place.

I like this. "doublecross = dblxx"
I think I will use this dblxx and see how many winds I can get on it and how many volts too.

Oh wait... I will remove one from each of the 4 corners first and see if that makes it sing louder. I could fit more secondary turns on it if it works.

jeanna

here is a drawing

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 08, 2009, 09:19:05 PM

@all

concerning the mk4 it could be made from 2 pnp , you just need to reverse one of the pair of jt coil .

Also other improvements would be to link the base coil so they trigger at the same time.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 08, 2009, 09:57:30 PM

nice job guys ... i do have lots of input here ...

but ill get to it soon

im working on my new tpu 45 bobbin unit ...

i will jump in the pool soon too

william

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 08, 2009, 10:08:32 PM

Stprue,
Ah this has been a fun day.
I made a color (mess) over your drawing to line this up with what I did in a more relaxed form :D .
It did work as it is drawn.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 08, 2009, 11:46:50 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 08, 2009, 10:08:32 PM
Stprue,
Ah this has been a fun day.
I made a color (mess) over your drawing to line this up with what I did in a more relaxed form :D .
It did work as it is drawn.

jeanna

Is it just me .........or is this setup the same as a MK2 only with one wire rotated 90 degrees ?

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 09, 2009, 08:44:05 AM

2 transistors, 2 resistors, 2 capacitors, 4 wires = AC output

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 09, 2009, 08:50:17 AM

2 transistors, 2 resistors, 2 capacitors, 4 wires = AC output

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 09, 2009, 09:06:47 AM

now it be glowing ... ;D

great! work ...

i have this pile of chips i got with a radio shack liquidation ... got a feeling i can use thease other wize odds they would not have been with the junk i got .. ;D

it is just so kool how the uni.... works ..

they are quad d type flip flop with reset positive trigger

i have a few hundred of thease chips .. 74hct175 and 74hct373 octal d type transparent latch 3 state

something tells me i need to use them ... of course i dont know about thease chips ...

none the less ill learn

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on July 09, 2009, 09:12:23 AM

Quote from: xee2 on July 09, 2009, 08:44:05 AM
2 transistors, 2 resistors, 2 capacitors, 4 wires = AC output

That is so awesome! Great work =) It kinda reminds me of a DC to AC inverter circuit.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 09, 2009, 10:50:34 AM

Quote from: jeanna on July 08, 2009, 10:08:32 PM
Stprue,
Ah this has been a fun day.
I made a color (mess) over your drawing to line this up with what I did in a more relaxed form :D .
It did work as it is drawn.

jeanna

I like where all this is going and am glad I brought it up! there are lots of ideas floating around right now. Sorry I did not get that drawing to you last night my wife took over the computer and would not give it up ;D

I will try to get it tonight though....I have had no time to wind and it is frusturating for me but I'm glad things are happening.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 09, 2009, 10:53:26 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on July 08, 2009, 05:21:54 PM
@gary

Yes the jt is great for learning its a must ... now the tpu may have iron inside of it or a single copper loop for a closed core type deal , but mostly what we see as a core in the tpu is the collector , pulses creating rotation but mainly a single direction flow (dc).

But now we can all get the picture , :D

Mark

Collector...hummmm...what would happen if the collector coil was completly separate from the rest of the JT coil....with many winds...hundreds?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 09, 2009, 10:59:52 AM

@MK

Mark can you explaine to me why the x2 cross coil windings do not creat conflicting/cancelling mag fields?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nikzagvit on July 09, 2009, 01:51:16 PM

All greetings I from Russia, therefore excuse for my English!!!
Class theme at you, has reconsidered all theme, even has collected the Jule Thief.
At me a question as you receive from 380v to 600v? The scheme same what has offered hazens1.
And still the question condenser marks, for example 100uF is microfarads?

All thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 09, 2009, 02:17:13 PM

Quote from: stprue on July 09, 2009, 10:59:52 AM
@MK

Mark can you explaine to me why the x2 cross coil windings do not creat conflicting/cancelling mag fields?

I am not sure what to say , but that facts are , there is 2 way of wiring coil like there is 2 side to a magnet.

On one side they attract them self the other repulse . Both show energy release .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 09, 2009, 02:31:29 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on July 09, 2009, 02:17:13 PM

I am not sure what to say , but that facts are , there is 2 way of wiring coil like there is 2 side to a magnet.

On one side they attract them self the other repulse . Both show energy release .

Mark

I didn't think about it that way and now it makes sense.

I was thinking about it like one side is wired down so field direction is going down but then it crosses over and starts from the top and goes down again! (as seen on Jeannas colored in pic of the coil) That's why to me it looked like they would cancell eachother out. This way of thinking is wrong!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 09, 2009, 03:22:40 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on July 08, 2009, 11:46:50 PM
Is it just me .........or is this setup the same as a MK2 only with one wire rotated 90 degrees ?
gary

Yes gary,
Not the MK2, but the x2

I was not sure that Mark liked my idea so I didn't want to force the name into his 'folder' so I came up with a name close but not the same.

double cross is how I am saying dblxx.
The meaning of it is obvious.

But it is in place of the primary bifilar and I am thinking (hoping) it is the rotating magnetic field dynamo... Only, in a smaller form.

It still works with 1 transistor which is one of my personal limits for this project.

I will look at it more today.
It works really well.
I was thinking of using the gsu hyperphysics site's pictures to explain the directions of "mag/elec" if I get to it.

wow, good stuff today!
thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 09, 2009, 03:37:03 PM

Quote from: nikzagvit on July 09, 2009, 01:51:16 PM
All greetings I from Russia, therefore excuse for my English!!!

And still the question condenser marks, for example 100uF is microfarads?

Welcome nikzagvit ,

Yes, microfarads

QuoteAt me a question as you receive from 380v to 600v? The scheme same what has offered hazens1.

We have many ways to make this high voltage.
Yes, Hazens made a good one.

QuoteClass theme at you, has reconsidered all theme, even has collected the Jule Thief.

Please try to say this a different way. I do not understand.
Here are my guesses:

At me = from my understanding?
class theme = thread?

but I am lost with these word combinations:

collected the Jule Thief = ?
reconsidered = ?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 09, 2009, 03:56:57 PM

Quote from: stprue on July 09, 2009, 02:31:29 PM

...but then it crosses over and starts from the top and goes down again!...
...That's why to me it looked like they would cancell eachother out.

I found it interesting that I had to switch from over* to under** after it crossed over.
Then even with a mistake it worked, but when I crossed to the other side and went over, it stopped.

The way I explained that to myself is this:
In one wire, the impulse needs to be going the same way to the end of the wire.
When the one wire has opposite charges doing: >< and possibly doing: <> it stops it all.

If we leave it up to the magnetic field, the switching in the wire can occur and fast.

I even think this is what the pancake is all about. it keeps the direction the same to the end of the wire.
Once it has stopped going in that one direction the electricity stops.
And then, the magnet field collapses and the reversal comes into the wire as electricity again, but now it flows in the other direction.

*over= begin and end the winding by going over the core.
**under= begin and end the winding by going under the core.

thoughts and ideas,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 09, 2009, 04:50:21 PM

@nikzagvit

Ð"Ð¾Ð±Ñ€Ð¾ Ð¿Ð¾Ð¶Ð°Ð»Ð¾Ð²Ð°Ñ,ÑŒ Ð½Ð° Ð¿Ñ€Ð¾Ñ,ÐµÐºÑ,Ð¾Ñ€, Ð²Ñ‹ Ð¼Ð¾Ð¶ÐµÑ,Ðµ Ð¸ÑÐ¿Ð¾Ð»ÑŒÐ·Ð¾Ð²Ð°Ñ,ÑŒ ÑÑ,Ð¾Ñ, Ð¿ÐµÑ€ÐµÐ²Ð¾Ð´Ñ‡Ð¸Ðº

http://translate.google.com/translate_t#en|ru|welcome%20to%20the%20tread%20%2C%20you%20can%20use%20this%20translator%20%0A%0AMark

ÐžÑ,Ð¼ÐµÑ,Ð¸Ñ,ÑŒ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 09, 2009, 05:43:12 PM

@Jeanna @MK

Here is the altered pic with like 4 different ideas on it! The N/S are north and south poles! Does that look right to you MK? If it does then I"m going to start the biggo coil. I will have 4 separate collector/base coils between each section.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 09, 2009, 06:12:28 PM

@stprue

Its looking good .

Some things to consider , the coils winding axe , winding direction , also maybe putting secondaries first , 4 of them going on way small gauge all the same . Doing this will help you connect then in phase and getting the best result .

Also a regular jt circuit would not be the best for this configuration , maybe look at the last circuit by Xee.

I did the idea that looks like the swastika that cross in the middle with the regular jt two leads , noting spectacular here.

Mark

Edit . i think we could really improve the basic jt if we could get it to make square wave pulse ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 09, 2009, 06:16:25 PM

Quote from: nikzagvit on July 09, 2009, 01:51:16 PM
All greetings I from Russia, therefore excuse for my English!!!
Class theme at you, has reconsidered all theme, even has collected the Jule Thief.
At me a question as you receive from 380v to 600v? The scheme same what has offered hazens1.
And still the question condenser marks, for example 100uF is microfarads?

All thanks

Welcome to our group here. We are glad to have you. Don't worry about your English as it is 1,000 times better than my Russian. Feel free to post pictures or drawings of your stuff.

Thanks again and welcome.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 09, 2009, 06:19:54 PM

Cool thanks MK

I want to try this idea but the good news is I should be able to change some things if it doesn't work well!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 09, 2009, 06:56:33 PM

Getting there!!!

I'll finish tomorrow ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 09, 2009, 07:42:11 PM

Hi everybody,
I have been having a hard time getting the picture right. I am still not sure if my words match my picture.

I am getting pretty great results though.
For a paltry 14T secondary I am getting 35v if I step way back on the scope. I am pretty sure this is what a cap would collect.

@MK1 you may get your wish soon, I just might pull out that bridge and diodes and see how a cap measures against the scope at close and then also at far range. The scope at far range where the wave is too small to measure, often tells me I have a lot more volts than when I am at a closer range. I suspect it is seeing the spikes from there. These would be the same spikes that a cap would collect.

Here is a pic of my scope showing the strange kind of wave I can get with this dblxx primary winding.
14T secondary lighting 8 or 10 leds while measuring.
250KHz between the markers.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 09, 2009, 08:07:00 PM

@jeanna

Its not really about me , but you will learn valuable things working with diode , remember the coil tester ?

It really helps to visualize what is happening in the secondary , current flow direction and so on , it will help you make better design form on toroid to the other.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 09, 2009, 08:34:10 PM

So MK1, what do you think about that wave?
I guess you never had a scope?
I can SEE what is happening I don't need help visualizing it. If the peaks go high on one lead and not on the other I can see how the polarity goes. etc.
There is no need for a diode.

Remember I did use this method.
I started to understand what was happening only after I could see it on the scope
We are all very different.

==
@All,

Here is a diagram of the core wound dblxx with 2T on the Collector and 3 on the +; and 2T on the Base and 3 turns on the +.
These 3T parts could be twisted together and can be seen as a center tap.
That is how they are used.

The output is very good.
The wave is very unusual.
This is a lot of voltage on a 14T secondary... almost twice what I usually get on this tor-23.

The screenshot above is from this winding.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 09, 2009, 08:43:50 PM

@Pirate,

Quote from: Pirate88179 on July 08, 2009, 04:04:08 PM
Yes, I did get the filament bulb to glow, but that was about all it did. I was using a car tail light bulb (GE 1157) designed for 12 volts. I was hitting it with about 9 volts and got a little glow.

I believe Gary is correct in what he said. These need amps to light and I was hitting it with mA's. I imagine they are just about like resistance heaters (electric ranges, ovens, water heaters, etc) which need amps.

One thing I never did try was to hit a 12 volt bulb with about 400 volts from the Fuji. I doubt it would do much of anything. I might try it for the heck of it anyway.

Bill

Hi Bill,
Try using a bulb from a torch (flashlight for you chaps), the ones that have a built in lens on the top of the bulb. These have a much tinyer fillament, it will light real brightly.

@all,
I've been away delving into this new Tariel Kapenadze earth battery, learnt a lot there and have had a break through on my bedini, I can make it run by using its own energy.

I believe by a simple/major mod, the JT can also be made to run on its own energy, lol.

I found a cattle prod at the dump, well wouldn't you know, its a joule thief in disguize, the circuit is almost a dead ringer for the JT. It runs on 9v. or 6 C cells. ALL coils are seperate, but I the trigger and load coil is seperately wound but wound bifilar.

The transistor is a 2N5886 in the same TO3 caseing as the 2N3055, and the base resistor is a 235K 235,000 ohms.

To make the JT run on a 9v battery just change the base resistor to the higher value. (you should get a few thousand volts out of it then)

But first I gotta play catch up here.
jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 09, 2009, 09:09:32 PM

@jeanna

ok ,you don't need me you got a scope good for you ...

What do i think of your wave , absolutely nothing , this is all good but what will it do .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 09, 2009, 09:25:36 PM

@ All,
Carnot play catch up just yet, got to make this post, then pack for the weekend, then be back on Monday.

I needed a break from here as I wasn't getting satisfaction with the JT work I was doing, sometimes a complete break and fresh ideas are needed, I stumbled onto a couple of things in the other forums and fealt these are what I needed, and lo and behold, some complete surprises.

OK I mentioned I had managed to run my bedini on its own output, this is how I went about it.

If you take just the output from the secondary coil after rectifying it, and place the Pos to power in and Neg to Neg in, it will not work.

The trick is to insert 3 12v batteries (in my case I had 3 long thin gel cells), connect them in series making a total of 36v. My Bedini can put out 40v rectified.

No I took the power from the middle of the 3 batteries (Batt 2) fed the Pos to Pos input and the Neg to Neg input and it kept running.
Next I disconnected the original battery which started and ran the bedini.

How does this happen, well I think the small amount of energy cripples itself, (it sees it as a short circuit) but, if the full output voltage is applied right across a much bigger battery, then if you take from the center battery, it seems to be "sampling" the energy.
When the Transistor turns off, the pulse hits the battery, the battery supplies just a small er energy to feed back to the Bedini circuit.

There seems to be a rebound wave of energy that is created, much like a spring effect at the battery. Difficult to explain this.

OK now how to make a JT run on its own energy?

Do the same as I did with the Bedini, but use 3 "extra" Batteries on the output, make sure you bridge it first.

I think (I haven't tried this) if you get 3 identical capacitors (electrolytics) and connect them in series, then connect them the same as the 3 batteries, this should also do the same thing.

Here's a few circuits have fun.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 09, 2009, 09:32:41 PM

@MK1,

I am sorry if I offended you.
I did not mean to.
I do think you are worth a lot more than your favorite diode method to learn the output of your coil.
A lot more.

I think you are a valuable member of this thread.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 09, 2009, 10:17:48 PM

Jim:

Congratulations!!!! You now have a self-running Bedini. I believe Gadget has some of these also. I do not think John Bedini himself has these, or if he does, he keeps it quiet. Very nice work my friend.

MK1:

I echo Jeanna's last post in that you are a very valued member of this group. Everyone here learns in different ways...some visual, some by listening (auditory) and some by hands on. (I fall into the latter group) Jeanna has done a ton of work here and has well documented her efforts. She does not have a mean bone in her body so if her comment about the scope did not go well with you, consider the source.

I have not done much with my scope thus far and if it was not for Jim's help, I probably would not have even turned it on even today. Jeanna, on the other hand, has jumped into the scope research with both feet and I will be asking her for help on using mine in the near future.

So, it's all good and even though we are different folks learning in different ways, we are all getting somewhere as a team. And that is how it should be.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on July 09, 2009, 10:18:32 PM

Quote from: electricme on July 09, 2009, 09:25:36 PM
@ All,
...
OK I mentioned I had managed to run my bedini on its own output, this is how I went about it.
...
jim

Congratulations @electricme!!!
If what you say is true then you are my hero!!!
I will replicate as soon as I gather the needed parts.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 09, 2009, 10:53:30 PM

@ electricme

Quote from: electricme on July 09, 2009, 09:25:36 PM
OK now how to make a JT run on its own energy?

It looks like this is running on the batteries. Will it run without any batteries?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 09, 2009, 11:44:24 PM

Jim

Congratulations on your Bedini.

:)

Great work

Quote from: electricme on July 09, 2009, 08:43:50 PM

To make the JT run on a 9v battery just change the base resistor to the higher value. (you should get a few thousand volts out of it then)

From what I have been seeing it is not quite that simple .

I do agree that changing the base resistor will limit the voltage to the base ......but that is just the start .

I had hoped that I could just connect my LM coils to higher voltage and have higher power out .
It is not that simple .
The problem seems to inductance .
Our coils are efficient at 1.5V
At higher voltages they do not have enough inductance
I have a 2.5A "leak" through my C coil
I added a pot for compensating for the higher voltage .....adjusting that pot does not change the leak much .
Tomorow I will try to make a higher inductance coil

Can you take some resistance measurements off the coils in your cattle prod?
That would help give me an idea where to start .

thanks

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 10, 2009, 12:04:52 AM

well the fun can be had with 2 freqs ... lol

i got this beat freq and when i touch it it goes nuts and backfeeds to the led pulser .. wild on the scope

almost like it knew it ... lol

plus i wound my coil diffrently 5 laps 1 dirrection yes i get 1 dirrection spikes when going for spikes like i said a few pages back im NOT after spikes lol i want a ringgggging colapse ... pulse train ...

lol now i got 1 .... lol :D

with spikes into the 150 v and if i wound another wire in the oppsite dirrection would i get positive spikes lol :D

hummmmm

lol

to bad i cant make a short video .. 1 hell of a crazy bright wave when i touch it then it dances ... all crazy like ...

:)

ist

here is a pic took 95 trys to get this picture

here is the coil

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 10, 2009, 12:29:47 AM

@ist,
It will be interesting to see if it does go in the other direction as well.
It seems to be a trick to get this to happen.

Even this dblxx is very directional. The scope shot I posted is unusual. Most of them are densely packed one way spikes. If a fast rate of change is what you are going for, this is a really good way to wind.

EDIT:
Wow cool scope shot. 95 tries. there is some dedication!
I have seen that crazy shape many times.
I see it on the tor-23 a lot.
Now, I know what it looks like on a real scope.
Thank you. That is so cool.
On my scope, if I get closer, so to speak it can look like a camel hump with one tall hump and one short one.

What is the frequency of that wave?

@Gary,
I tried using a 3v battery (well it was 2.54v) on this coil and core today. The volts went from 34v DOWN to 28v!!
But oh my the frequency went from 250KHz UP to 434KHz.

I was very surprised. This was very unexpected..

===

@everybody,

I did set up my full bridge with 2 additional diodes and cap to see just what the voltage is.

Because at the scope resolution where there are 8 volts per division, the scope gave me a readout of 19.2v to 21.02v.
But at the resolution of 20v per division it says 34v.

I reasoned that the scope could detect a skinny spike that was too fast to show me, but it could tell me in the digital read-out section what it could detect.

The cap collected 16 to 18v right away. up to 2 minutes it was still below 20 v.

But I left the cap on for half hour and at that time it had collected 29v.
I am sure in another hour this would be near the 34v peak that the scope says is there.

I am delighted with this primary configuration.

I will fully wind a secondary and test it.

This ought to have room for 85 to 95 turns through the center... IF the cross wires do not take out too much space.

I have 2 others of this core size with 74 turns and I may make one with that so I have a really good comparison.

There are 4 pie shaped spaces in between the crosswires.
For this preliminary test today, I have kept the 14T secondary all within just one of the quarters.
I will be looking through the scope to see what happens to the wave when I move out of one quarter into another.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 10, 2009, 12:48:24 AM

thanks jeanna ...

the pic was the wayyyyy easy part ... just try to tune into the wave agin ... i was useing a 50 k pot

the wave is easy if you touch but i was not touching anything i had it running like that 15-20 min

till i bumped it

but i got some vids but im not tubbing .... :)

ist!

there 2 waves infact 3 but .... ill say 2 first freq is fast to make my ringgg spike second intrupts the first .. at a realy slow speed im powering the jt from a led from my dollar store chaser ... i may make 2 more ... then tune them all 3 right in to a 2 freq pulse train that rotates

this could be a controller for my last tpu ... 1 way i can do it ...

lol

BAMMMMMM i got it ..... lol duh!!! i feel dumb... lol

put a neo on the toroide ... lol lol

now it is stable and easy to tune it :D

wow now maybe it is just me but it seems to be accelerating ... wild ...

the pulse seems to get going quite a bit faster ... than when it first started i never did a thing ...

the pulseing on my supply has not changed its speed

but my scope seems to be flashing faster

correction IT IS ACCELERATING .... NUTS.....

i just blowen away it is going crazy .... since when i started it ... it has picked up the pace at least dubble time ... ;D ;D

what can this mean ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 10, 2009, 09:35:49 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on July 10, 2009, 12:48:24 AM
thanks jeanna ...

the pic was the wayyyyy easy part ... just try to tune into the wave agin ... i was useing a 50 k pot

the wave is easy if you touch but i was not touching anything i had it running like that 15-20 min

till i bumped it

but i got some vids but im not tubbing .... :)

ist!

there 2 waves infact 3 but .... ill say 2 first freq is fast to make my ringgg spike second intrupts the first .. at a realy slow speed im powering the jt from a led from my dollar store chaser ... i may make 2 more ... then tune them all 3 right in to a 2 freq pulse train that rotates

this could be a controller for my last tpu ... 1 way i can do it ...

lol

BAMMMMMM i got it ..... lol duh!!! i feel dumb... lol

put a neo on the toroide ... lol lol

now it is stable and easy to tune it :D

wow now maybe it is just me but it seems to be accelerating ... wild ...

the pulse seems to get going quite a bit faster ... than when it first started i never did a thing ...

the pulseing on my supply has not changed its speed

but my scope seems to be flashing faster

correction IT IS ACCELERATING .... NUTS.....

i just blowen away it is going crazy .... since when i started it ... it has picked up the pace at least dubble time ... ;D ;D

what can this mean ?

I'm lost are you talking about the prod you found or a JT coil you made x2 style? I found the ansewer to this in the New TPU Build topic...Thanks!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 10, 2009, 10:32:46 AM

i took another picture of the toroide ... from the top down

and i took a pic of the scope without the magnet

looks like a h wave but it is more a small h not a capital H wave ... lol

ist

put the neo and watch it dance ...

it does not apear to use much power from the chaser ... as all the leds are still litt same as they were b4 it was put there

so i will continue to make 2 more today and mount them on something ... might make a GREAT BATTERY CHARGER THE WAY IT IS ..

i have bout 15 of those chasers so ill whip up a few more coils and see what the results are ..

see if i cant get a 3 phase pulse train .. i may rectify it and put it in a collector and scope that to watch all 3 phases as 1 ... :)

at closer inspection it is not the wave acceleration but the time between the beat deaccelerating ... :)

it may just be my eyes as it is a hyponitic wave.... :D

well im at it ill whip up a 3jt 6 freq solar battery charger .. unit!! ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 10, 2009, 10:53:00 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on July 10, 2009, 10:32:46 AM
i took another picture of the toroide ... from the top down

and i took a pic of the scope without the magnet

looks like a h wave but it is more a small h not a capital H wave ... lol

ist

put the neo and watch it dance ...

it does not apear to use much power from the chaser ... as all the leds are still litt same as they were b4 it was put there

so i will continue to make 2 more today and mount them on something ... might make a GREAT BATTERY CHARGER THE WAY IT IS ..

i have bout 15 of those chasers so ill whip up a few more coils and see what the results are ..

see if i cant get a 3 phase pulse train .. i may rectify it and put it in a collector and scope that to watch all 3 phases as 1 ... :)

Thank you for the quict response! Didn't the TPU use magnets also? DO you know if pulsing DC at say 5vdc into this tesla design would continue to speed up electromag rotation? I really want to use lower voltage but I'm will to use 5volts and a 555ic!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 10, 2009, 12:12:39 PM

@Ist,
It is normal when you add a neo to a jt toroid for the frequency to go way high.

It is also normal for the voltage to drop when this happens.

Thanks for posting all of that.
It is great!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 10, 2009, 12:46:33 PM

@Jeanna

Did you get a chance to see the pic of my coil? Im going to change the base/collector coils but I hape to have it up and running tonight or tomorrow.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 10, 2009, 12:56:55 PM

Quote from: stprue on July 10, 2009, 10:53:00 AM
Thank you for the quict response! Didn't the TPU use magnets also? DO you know if pulsing DC at say 5vdc into this tesla design would continue to speed up electromag rotation? I really want to use lower voltage but I'm will to use 5volts and a 555ic!

Stprue

I know that many on the TPU thread believed that it used magnets
That is not my understanding .
What I got from the videos and what SM wrote .
They wanted a TPU that did not require a battery of any kind .
So they started using a magnet to start it. ( rather than a battery )
If you think about it .........The TPU is basicly inductive .
If you stroke it with a strong enough magnet it is going to set up some magnetic fields . I am thinking that is all that it took to get it going.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 10, 2009, 01:32:34 PM

Quote from: stprue on July 10, 2009, 12:46:33 PM
@Jeanna

Did you get a chance to see the pic of my coil? Im going to change the base/collector coils but I hope to have it up and running tonight or tomorrow.

Yes,
OOPS
I didn't reply. sorry.
Which are the base and collector coils?
I would guess that you have several sets of them, but I think I must be mistaken.

On the big coil, I could not actually tell if you went over on the first set and under on the second (but, I think you did, didn't you?) or over on both. I could not figure how to ask this Q. I still am not sure how to ask, but I just tried.

@All,
I have just finished round 1 for today.
I discovered a little shiny copper on a spot that gave unexpected results, so I am waiting for my nail polish to dry ;D before I continue.

I decided to keep the numbers small to more easily test the concepts. So, the total on my first round is 16T.
16 is because there are 4 quarter sections so 4 turns each section...
So, for comparison, I added 2 to the 14T I had on there yesterday and checked.
Then I removed all but 4T and measured them as I had yesterday.
Then I put 4 more turns in the next section and measured.
etc.

The voltage continued to rise as hoped.
The wave form changed with each additional section added.
The only time there was a reversal of progress was at the end. This could be from the broken insulation. We will see.

The reason for all this inquiry, is that the direction of the way the wire is wrapped around the primary is changing. Each time it is changing, the wire I am wrapping has one way at one side of it and the opposite way on the other side.

so, I am watching.

In 2 places maybe all 3 there appears a wave of the waves. I measured this greater wave too.
One of them even looks like that boxy thing I posted yesterday.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 10, 2009, 01:52:08 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 10, 2009, 12:12:39 PM
@Ist,
It is normal when you add a neo to a jt toroid for the frequency to go way high.

It is also normal for the voltage to drop when this happens.

Thanks for posting all of that.
It is great!

jeanna

this is not what i have done ...

my freq stays the same i get my second wave of spikes and ringggingggg when i add the neo ...

my freq does not jump or change the freq between the 2 freqs .. accelerates ...

ill make a video today and try to put it on youtube ....

just demoing this effect ....

im not explaining it in a video ...

william

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 10, 2009, 01:54:30 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 10, 2009, 01:32:34 PM
Yes,
OOPS
I didn't reply. sorry.
Which are the base and collector coils?

They are the thicker lighter colored one but I will be changing a little bit.

I would guess that you have several sets of them, but I think I must be mistaken.

[/quote]
The total will be 2 collector and 2 base

On the big coil, I could not actually tell if you went over on the first set and under on the second (but, I think you did, didn't you?) or over on both. I could not figure how to ask this Q. I still am not sure how to ask, but I just tried.

jeanna
[/quote]

Yes when I finished one side I crossed over to the next in an x2 fashion. I cant wait to see what happens :o

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 10, 2009, 03:29:18 PM

@Stprue,
I can tell you right now, it is a lot.

I have been playing with small numbers of turns to see if one way gives more or less than another way.

Well, ours are different from each other.

You are using a 'normal- for us' primary of 2T2T and that enormous coil is your secondary/pickup. - Is that correct?

My primary is that dblxx thing just as I drew in the final drawing which has 5T,5T but split and crossed as 3T2T each, and THEN, crossed at 90 degrees as in the Tesla rotating mag field patent.

The secondary/pickup is like the tesla patent too.
Well, just for a standard, I made one with 4 turns in each block all going around in a straight ring, but now for the excitement, I am making them cross over to the opposite side and reverse the direction too. We will see.

The advantage of this as I see it, is that like the MK1 designs, the wire will follow in different directions, but unlike that design, it will not be too close to any other wire with current in the opposite direction. This SHOULD allow the new direction leeway to go without any brakes, so to speak.

This is such fun!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 10, 2009, 03:52:28 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 10, 2009, 03:29:18 PM
@Stprue,
I can tell you right now, it is a lot.

I have been playing with small numbers of turns to see if one way gives more or less than another way.

Well, ours are different from each other.

You are using a 'normal- for us' primary of 2T2T and that enormous coil is your secondary/pickup. - Is that correct?

My primary is that dblxx thing just as I drew in the final drawing which has 5T,5T but split and crossed as 3T2T each, and THEN, crossed at 90 degrees as in the Tesla rotating mag field patent.

The secondary/pickup is like the tesla patent too.
Well, just for a standard, I made one with 4 turns in each block all going around in a straight ring, but now for the excitement, I am making them cross over to the opposite side and reverse the direction too. We will see.

The advantage of this as I see it, is that like the MK1 designs, the wire will follow in different directions, but unlike that design, it will not be too close to any other wire with current in the opposite direction. This SHOULD allow the new direction leeway to go without any brakes, so to speak.

This is such fun!

jeanna

Ok I think I finally understand how most of you label coils my primary consists of (Righ now but not for long...maybe) both collector and base coils meaning that's what I connect them too, but they will not be 2T as 2 Turns what I meant was 2collectro coils at some amount of turns as well as 2 base coils the same. I was going to have them away from eachother. The secondary/pickup is the large windings that go accross in the X2 fashion. You may be right in needing to cross over the both! We will see.

I'm actually starting to concepitalize this as a kind of bidini at lease in visualizing the magnetic spin only that the only friction is the wire itself and maybe some potential eddy currents. Think about it though....what if one of us was able to make a design that continued to excellerate on it's own....kinda sounds like a TPU which always caught my attention. Sorry ranting on a daydream again! ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 10, 2009, 03:53:39 PM

43volts
not bad for 16 turns on the secondary!

more later...

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 10, 2009, 05:03:28 PM

Stprue and anybody else,

A while back, xee2 made some suggestions for names of the various parts of the joule thief so we would have an easier time explaining ourselves.
I will post his drawing here.
I think we added later that the light in the normal joule thief spot would be called basic joule thief light and abbreviated BJTL.
I hope this helps.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 10, 2009, 05:38:24 PM

Cool, thank you...I will use this from now on!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 10, 2009, 06:15:26 PM

@ jeanna,

Someone (not me) called the secondary coil a pickup coil. I think that is a good idea and I have been doing the same. That avoids the confusion of thinking one of the JT coils is the secondary. So I would now suggest using the terms base coil, collector coil, and pickup coil. Does that seem like a good idea to you?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 10, 2009, 06:23:34 PM

Google has a Tesla coil logo today so I am guessing that today is Tesla's birthday.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 10, 2009, 06:51:25 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 10, 2009, 06:15:26 PM
@ jeanna,

Someone (not me) called the secondary coil a pickup coil. I think that is a good idea and I have been doing the same. That avoids the confusion of thinking one of the JT coils is the secondary. So I would now suggest using the terms base coil, collector coil, and pickup coil. Does that seem like a good idea to you?

It is except for the outside world... but ..

who cares?
It is a good name because it is different and this whole thing is different.

I believe it was MK1 who named it "pickup" for that very reason.

@xee2,
Do you feel like fixing the drawing to include this and the BJTL and maybe Battery cap and battery resistor too?
And anything else we have been using?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 10, 2009, 06:53:16 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 10, 2009, 06:15:26 PM
@ jeanna,

Someone (not me) called the secondary coil a pickup coil. I think that is a good idea and I have been doing the same. That avoids the confusion of thinking one of the JT coils is the secondary. So I would now suggest using the terms base coil, collector coil, and pickup coil. Does that seem like a good idea to you?

And it make perfect sense too! hehe! ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 10, 2009, 07:56:11 PM

Here is probably all I can report for today. I have to recharge my joule thief batteries. The results started to go down and that was because the battery was running low.

Here is what I was doing:

QuoteMy primary is that dblxx thing just as I drew in the final drawing which has 5T,5T but split and crossed as 3T2T each, and THEN, crossed at 90 degrees as in the Tesla rotating mag field patent.

The secondary/pickup is like the tesla patent too.
Well, just for a standard, I made one with 4 turns in each block all going around in a straight ring, but now for the excitement, I am making them cross over to the opposite side and reverse the direction too.

So that did work really well. 43v and high frequency too.
The problem was that it wasn't increasing with a second layer.
First I just wound over the first layer with a second and the voltage went up but by less.
I tried a lot of different things like wrapping from top where it had been bottom. That was worse. Everything else I tried was worse. The voltage actually went down.
So, I will just do it right and stop the preliminary trials and then see.

I found that if I jostled the primary to much the voltage would go down , often by 10v. And jostling the primary is easy to do.

So, 43v on a 16T pickup.
(I did get it up to 52v, but with diminishing returns .)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 10, 2009, 08:09:25 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 10, 2009, 06:51:25 PM
@xee2,
Do you feel like fixing the drawing to include this and the BJTL and maybe Battery cap and battery resistor too?
And anything else we have been using?

jeanna

Done.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 10, 2009, 08:13:26 PM

My pickups are done. I will finish my base and collectors tomorrow as I wound them wrong to begin with!

@Jeanna

Those results are good considering a low baterry and few turns. I ended with 52-52 by 52-52 turns on the pickups so now I just need to finish the C&B coils and tune!

I hope it works :-\

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 10, 2009, 08:18:40 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on July 10, 2009, 07:56:11 PM
I found that if I jostled the primary to much the voltage would go down , often by 10v. And jostling the primary is easy to do.

I know you like high frequencies, but at frequencies over 100 kHz parasitic capacitance between leads can have an effect. So each time you change your leads a bit the results change. That is why RF circuits are usually built using PC boards.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 10, 2009, 09:00:43 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 10, 2009, 08:18:40 PM
@ jeanna

I know you like high frequencies, but at frequencies over 100 kHz parasitic capacitance between leads can have an effect. So each time you change your leads a bit the results change. That is why RF circuits are usually built using PC boards.

Oh.

Does that mean a spark?
Do I need gutta percha? ;D
NO! NOT the boiled oil!, please anything but that! ;D

I will be specific. The kind of change that seems to make the difference is having the last bit of wire tightly wound or loosely wound against the toroid core before it goes into the C or E. The wire on the C mostly made the difference today. I suspected that the reason was that this Collector coil was best somewhere between 1 1/2 and 2 turns. If I made it too close to the toroid, the voltage went down by 5v.

The other thing that made a big difference was getting the pickup wire on the wrong side of one of the crossings between the split coils.
Probably this capacitance thing again?

I do not know what parasitic capacitance means, and I would like to.

thank you for the drawing and
thank you for your help,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 10, 2009, 10:22:34 PM

i have been haveing a hard time duplicating my results agin with 2 freqs... today

the reason is ....

yes the batteries went low and after they get to low the effect ceases ... no matter what you do as i have seen

im useing 3 button cells so i bet 5 v will work awesome ...

so i have been assembling my solar unit im thinking of a few cell fone batteries .. but i have a 4.5 volt unit that came with the 3 pannels ..

i will switch the buttons for a nicad solar ... not tryed that yet i would expect the results to be the same .. tho

aside that the thing works good ... and yes even the same result no matter the wires... (pick up coils... ) 1 2 10 lol

the wopper wave is the same on all out wires... but the wave is not seen on the jt flyback ...

ist!

few more pics 2 outputs scoped from 1 coil

scope 10v/d

i added another neo to c what it would do .... ;D ;D ;D ;D (last 2 pics) magnets 180 deg of each other

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 10, 2009, 11:02:05 PM

Wow ist,
Those waves are sooo beautiful!

I am sorry to hear you are having trouble replicating eesh your own stuff.
Are those rings from now? Or is this what you are trying to replicate?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 10, 2009, 11:32:25 PM

i just took those pics

the poroblem was the voltage droped as i just explained above ... lol ;)

a constant 5vdc should provide constant results ...

the last 2 pics have neos 180 deg ...

ist!

;) :D http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=315

LET ME KNOW WHAT YA THINK .... ;D

near as i can tell right now ... this unit is voltage and resistance dependent ... as the voltage drops in the 3 button cells you must re tune it a tiny bit to keep it in tune ...

to eliminite this it needs a constant supply .. that does not varrie ... if this is then the true case .. it can be done at any voltage ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 11, 2009, 12:07:46 AM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on July 10, 2009, 09:00:43 PM
I do not know what parasitic capacitance means, and I would like to.

Sorry. I should not have expected that you would know what that means. It is the unwanted stray capacitance in a circuit. It is called parasitic because it is usually draining away energy that should be going somewhere else. But from your comments it seems that you are correct in assuming that the problem is the amount of inductance in the coil changing.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 11, 2009, 12:22:21 AM

@Ist,
I cannot open that.
This is the second time this week something is not openable. It may be that I need to download something.
But maybe it didn't get uploaded properly?

@xee2
Thank you.
Stray capacitance must mean a spark. A tiny one.
Tesla talked about how that was the biggest problem when using high frequency high voltage, so it makes sense that this is what it means.

Capacitors/condensers collect and store energy, then make sparks when they let it go.
That would certainly dissipate the energy in the wires. If the wires passed their charges to one another magnetically, it would not be much of a problem.
So, I must conclude that this is that hi frequency sparking Tesla was talking about.

===
My coil never got above 50v
It kept going down then up to 50v
I tried to tune it, but there was not much room starting at 29 ohm. so the transistor heated up a lot, but the system still never got above 50v.

So I conclude that you, xee2, are right in suggesting there is capacitive coupling happening here.

But there will be no boiled oil happening here! ;)

I may just try one more thing before I put this away. I may just use one layer. I can get a few more turns on than 16 so I will see how far this little toroid can go.
Then I will stop.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 11, 2009, 12:46:17 AM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on July 11, 2009, 12:22:21 AM
Stray capacitance must mean a spark. A tiny one.
Tesla talked about how that was the biggest problem when using high frequency high voltage, so it makes sense that this is what it means.

No. Not a spark. For AC a capacitor acts like a path for the energy to flow through. The stray capacitance is just the capacitance that is not actually a physical capacitor. When a neon or fluorescent tube is lit with one wire, the other connection is through the stray capacitance between the tube and the circuit wires.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 11, 2009, 12:53:10 AM

i added 2 more videos of scope shots of 2 freq 2 neo 180 deg of neo seperation on a jt with an equal pickup .....only 1 lap no acceleration on this one lol lol :D ;D

ist

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=downloads;sa=myfiles;u=4557

yikes are those all SPIKES .... SHEESH ... :o

this is the coil all the scope shots today came from ... and videos just 1 jt was powered i did wind 3 on it it was going to be a 3 phase rotating self accleerating magnetic feild unit ...

but ill build that on a bigger ring ....

any one ever short a coil on its self on a jt maybe with a few laps ...... ;) ;) :D ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 11, 2009, 01:40:26 AM

in the empty places on the toroide is where yes my shorted out multi lap winding and my collector coil or pick up coil mutli lap aswell will be going ......might try a 50 wire litz style pickup lol ... but its not big enough .. ill build it bigger and probally try for a 4 turn jt 3 phase ... ;D ;D

coils all wound same dirrection .... 8)

ist

so i did wind in there a 60 turn picup coil 4 15 layers back and forth 80" 26 ga magnet wire ..

and yes i can still tap the other unused jts and the 60 turn coil is 120 v jt coils bout 55 thease are scope peek voltages ..

ok so now thats done how bout a mk2 pickup transformer winding on top of the 3 phase jt coils... just a small one for feed back ...

then ontop of all of them a lower gage 22 maybe shorted on it self 6 laps ..... hummmm lol

:o

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 11, 2009, 04:57:20 AM

@all

New energy news ...

http://dvice.com/archives/2009/06/led-clock-munch.php

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 11, 2009, 01:16:09 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 11, 2009, 12:46:17 AM
@ jeanna

No. Not a spark. For AC a capacitor acts like a path for the energy to flow through. The stray capacitance is just the capacitance that is not actually a physical capacitor. When a neon or fluorescent tube is lit with one wire, the other connection is through the stray capacitance between the tube and the circuit wires.

Boy, that doesn't make any sense to me at all.

How would it do that in a wire? I understand how a cap can 'pass through' the ac, because in ac nothing is going down the wire. It just jiggles and it can jiggle inside the cap and push around whatever is outside of it, but how a wire would do that is hard to both picture and believe.

If the 'capacitance' jumps the wire and skips going through the inductor coil, I suspect there is a very tiny spark.
Tesla went into a lot lot lot of detail on how to avoid the sparks that were really small and would limit the effectiveness of the high frequency experiment. He recommended the gutta. You recommend the thick plastic wire. I was using the mag wire for this and probably should have used the kynar wire. I was being greedy and wanted more turns, but maybe I will try the kynar.

When Tesla describes the one wire arrangement of ac, he specifically says the connection is to the ground. (through the operator's body, a metal plate on the wall or just a wire to the ground.)
He is saying it is not being made to the other side of the battery - or dc circuit ground.

Ah will this be another scrubbing happening on the insides of my brain?

hmm,
thank you,

jeanna

@MK1
;D the true bug light! ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 11, 2009, 02:11:41 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on July 11, 2009, 01:16:09 PM
Boy, that doesn't make any sense to me at all.

Tesla used the ground as a return path because at large distances current flows much easier through the ground than between plates of a capacitor.

I think your idea of AC going back and forth is good. The stray capacitances act the same way. The only difference is that instead of being a component, the capacitor plates are just various parts of the wires.

A capacitor is just two conductive plates separated by a non-conductor. The stray capacitances are just parts of wires (conductors) separated by air (non-conductor). The idea is that in addition to the capacitors you add to the circuit there are a lot of invisible stray capacitance capacitors that you do not see. These have a very small capacitance and therefore do not allow much energy to pass at low frequencies and so are effectively not there at low frequencies. But at high frequencies even their small capacitances can conduct a significant amount of AC current.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 11, 2009, 02:50:21 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 11, 2009, 01:16:09 PM
Boy, that doesn't make any sense to me at all.

How would it do that in a wire? I understand how a cap can 'pass through' the ac, because in ac nothing is going down the wire. It just jiggles and it can jiggle inside the cap and push around whatever is outside of it, but how a wire would do that is hard to both picture and believe.

If the 'capacitance' jumps the wire and skips going through the inductor coil, I suspect there is a very tiny spark.
Tesla went into a lot lot lot of detail on how to avoid the sparks that were really small and would limit the effectiveness of the high frequency experiment. He recommended the gutta. You recommend the thick plastic wire. I was using the mag wire for this and probably should have used the kynar wire. I was being greedy and wanted more turns, but maybe I will try the kynar.

When Tesla describes the one wire arrangement of ac, he specifically says the connection is to the ground. (through the operator's body, a metal plate on the wall or just a wire to the ground.)
He is saying it is not being made to the other side of the battery - or dc circuit ground.

Ah will this be another scrubbing happening on the insides of my brain?

hmm,
thank you,

jeanna

@MK1
;D the true bug light! ;D

Jeanna

Tesla was using alot higher voltages that we are using .
Also insulation is alot better now than it was at his time.

I think I might be able to help with the capacitance thing.
Keep in mind that inductance and capacitance are 2 sides of the same coin .
WHen current flows though a wire it sets up a field around the wire ........ It is said to be a magnetic field .......but I believe that is an oversimplification .

As you know especially with AC inductance what is taught is not quite right.
The field around the wire interacts with ALL things around it ......some more than others .
A capacitor works in a similar way . The current flows into one plate of the cap and induces a change in the other plate of that cap .

The capacitive charge .......like the inductive charge influences ALL things around it to some degree .

It was parasitic capacitance that the original question was about .
Parasitic capacitance is when other parts of a circuit start acting as if they are plates of a capacitor ..... ( such as the leads of the LEDs )
As the frequency increases the problems with this kind of unintended capacitance grows .

Any 2 wires have some capacitance between them .....
It is possible that even atoms have capacitance between them

It takes smaller and smaller capacitance as the frequency or voltage rise .
That is why parasitic capacitance is more of a problem at high frequencys
The parts of a circuit stay the same ...........but at high voltage or high frequency they become capable of carrying enough charge to be noticeable

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nueview on July 11, 2009, 02:53:39 PM

this goes for the dipole moment of all elements and producing of a wave of great intensity and short length
there is a MIT lecture on you tube about dipole nature of elements and if you deminish the area fo tention the spark increases through a small tube confined space adds to flow.
Martin

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 11, 2009, 03:02:09 PM

yep wild toys ..

i just finished a bigger unit on a 1.25 " toroide .. 3 phase jt 5 turn with 50 turn generator windings 26 gage 100"

i will add mk2 pick up coils ... what is the proper name for those coils.. i did find some on a toroide inside a microwave that is 20 years old... lol i dont know the proper name of the winding

then like i have been saying years ... there is 1000 ways this still could work ...

ill put the pick ups on it then take a picture

why the hell do you all think this needs to spinn supper fast ?!?!?! :D :D :D :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 11, 2009, 05:00:50 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on July 11, 2009, 04:57:20 AM
@all

New energy news ...

http://dvice.com/archives/2009/06/led-clock-munch.php

Mark

Finally just what we need for west nile! hehe nice find!

This guy must have really hated bugs! ;D ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 11, 2009, 05:16:21 PM

I think I should not have used the mag wire.
I had frequencies higher than 250khz.
I am getting used to such numbers, and it is certainly in the very high frequency level.
Just because there is higher, it doesn't mean this is low.

OK I have some cat5 cable and some RS wrapping wire which is covered in 'kynar', a rubbery white substance which might be gutta. It is 30 gauge wire and hard to strip without breaking, but if I am careful I may get the results I want.

I am thinking I will wrap the whole thing as the pickup then add the dblxx primary over this.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 11, 2009, 05:25:58 PM

@All

Sorry for the delay in posting my results. I wound an entire side backwards and then got crap for results. I needed to step away for a while but here is half the tesla idea results 8)

It pushing a little over 350vdc rectified with little tuning and messing with. 52 winds each side off the pickup and 10 on the collector coil/2 on the base!

32.2 Ohms off my 500 Ohm POT

2N3005 power transistor

Not too bad for half an idea hopefully adding the other side will help and not hinder ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 11, 2009, 05:36:32 PM

@all

I got a idea last night , what if we used a led chaser circuit to pulse the jt coil , first the over all energy sent in the coil will be far greater then what we used today on the jt coil , second it will be easier to test other coil configuration , also they are set to chase them self making it easier to have a real rotating field , the speed can be adjusted like on the regular jt , the pulse is a square wave this will make a stronger kick , so we should get a better output .

Ok it work on 3 v with 10 led, and its rated for 8 month of work on AA , and 4.9 years on D, humm , if we get half of the half of that it still would be great ...

I will make some tries today , i got one bike led light from rama , with chasing mode 3 led so i will try 3 pulses per cycle , on the down side i can't control the speed but there is two preset slow and fast , but not ultra fast .

i wish i could modify this circuit but there are no parts , 6 led and a switch the rest is in a small whit dot ...

Also great for tpu type stuff ...

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 11, 2009, 05:46:31 PM

After some of my playing with! and....well... you wont know if you dont try!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 11, 2009, 05:46:53 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on July 11, 2009, 05:36:32 PM
@all

I got a idea last night , what if we used a led chaser circuit to pulse the jt coil , first the over all energy sent in the coil will be far greater then what we used today on the jt coil , second it will be easier to test other coil configuration , also they are set to chase them self making it easier to have a real rotating field , the speed can be adjusted like on the regular jt , the pulse is a square wave this will make a stronger kick , so we should get a better output .

Ok it work on 3 v with 10 led, and its rated for 8 month of work on AA , and 4.9 years on D, humm , if we get half of the half of that it still would be great ...

I will make some tries today , i got one bike led light from rama , with chasing mode 3 led so i will try 3 pulses per cycle , on the down side i can't control the speed but there is two preset slow and fast , but not ultra fast .

i wish i could modify this circuit but there are no parts , 6 led and a switch the rest is in a small whit dot ...

Also great for tpu type stuff ...

Mark

;D ;D

im all over that bro ... i got the solar half done ... lol and just wound this unit .. it has 6 freqs but really are only 2 but in 3 phase ...

;D ;D

i still want to add more to the coil but i wanted to show it b4 it gets TOO WILD and NOBODY KNOWS HOW TO DUPLICATE IT

:)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 11, 2009, 06:03:25 PM

sorry to tie up the space with my posts .... but

a few more pictures that go with exactly what mk1 just said ...

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 11, 2009, 06:08:50 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on July 11, 2009, 05:36:32 PM
@all

I got a idea last night , what if we used a led chaser circuit to pulse the jt coil , first the over all energy sent in the coil will be far greater then what we used today on the jt coil , second it will be easier to test other coil configuration , also they are set to chase them self making it easier to have a real rotating field , the speed can be adjusted like on the regular jt , the pulse is a square wave this will make a stronger kick , so we should get a better output .

Ok it work on 3 v with 10 led, and its rated for 8 month of work on AA , and 4.9 years on D, humm , if we get half of the half of that it still would be great ...

I will make some tries today , i got one bike led light from rama , with chasing mode 3 led so i will try 3 pulses per cycle , on the down side i can't control the speed but there is two preset slow and fast , but not ultra fast .

i wish i could modify this circuit but there are no parts , 6 led and a switch the rest is in a small whit dot ...

Also great for tpu type stuff ...

Mark

It sound like this could be accomplished with a 555 but I'm not sure what a led chaser is exactly...it sounds like it could be a lot of different things! Do you have a link or something?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 11, 2009, 06:10:43 PM

IST don't worry about killing the page with pic's lol the whole page is already killed with pics...hehe

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 11, 2009, 06:13:59 PM

btw thats the IST 5555 coil ... lol 3 555 @5v lol

ist

;)

but cuz i cant seem to get any dow for my work .. ill use the flashers i have ... till i round up nuff junk to build a total controler .. lol

i already have my 3 freq SOUND BOARD ... but thats a LOT diffrent than this ... ;) :D

i do in fact have 2 6 freq units too ... lol 1 is my sound bucket .... hummmmm lol

the other is my 6 mechanical switch unit driven by 555's mosfets.. and relays... with recovery built in on the fet circuit ... but i was MIXING .... 1 day .... and ... blew a fet ;)

saw the dangers .. and wanted to go NANO ... lol so to speek ...

peace!

BTW: ... you might want to put a cap on the jt fly back to SAVE LED FROM DAMMAGE AND CUT WAY BACK ON INPUTTED ENGERY ... what capping the gap ... lol

when i tune this unit in with 2 freqs the led is retarted bright and iraticlly flashing .. but it still pulses ... ;D hummmmmmmmmmmm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 11, 2009, 06:36:15 PM

Nano is good.
Trouble with nano is you can't see what is happening.
Good part is everything and everybody stays safe.

@Stprue,
yeay! another fluoro lit. :D happy!

Do you have some kind of ampdraw reading?
I am not able to get that without putting out the light, and I don't think the draw is the same anymore! ;)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 11, 2009, 06:52:49 PM

@all

This is a 3 v 10 led chaser link , http://www.electronics-lab.com/projects/games/003/index.html

Mark

http://www.sureglow.com/sg-store/catalog/flashing-bracelet-stock-p-1587.html

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 11, 2009, 06:54:03 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 11, 2009, 06:36:15 PM
Nano is good.
Trouble with nano is you can't see what is happening.
Good part is everything and everybody stays safe.

@Stprue,
yeay! another fluoro lit. :D happy!

Do you have some kind of ampdraw reading?
I am not able to get that without putting out the light, and I don't think the draw is the same anymore! ;)

jeanna

Sorry I know I never include this info.

Input by protek powersupply (This is what it is set on for all JT experiments unless otherwise stated)
1.5 volts DC/.500amp

This JT uses
1.5vDC/.250a=.38w output on this reading is 740vDC
If I used a battery the results would be better!

Now I just need to wind the other side the right way. ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 11, 2009, 06:58:32 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on July 11, 2009, 06:52:49 PM
@all

This is a 3 v 10 led chaser link , http://www.electronics-lab.com/projects/games/003/index.html

Mark

Nice link Mark, thanks for the info!!!

I think it would be more conveinient to but one.....for me anyways...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 11, 2009, 07:27:34 PM

@ stprue

Quote from: stprue on July 11, 2009, 05:25:58 PM
It pushing a little over 350vdc rectified with little tuning and messing with. 52 winds each side off the pickup and 10 on the collector coil/2 on the base!

32.2 Ohms off my 500 Ohm POT

2N3005 power transistor

Before you add the other side, could you check the output voltage using a diode and capacitor and then reverse the diode and see what the voltage is. My coils all give a very high voltage with the diode in one direction and a low voltage with the diode in the other direction.

Here are the results for my 2B-10C-80P coil. I would call your coil a 2B-10C-104P coil. They should be somewhat close.

Also, was your taransistor a 2N3005 or a 2N3055?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 11, 2009, 08:10:54 PM

Quote from: stprue on July 11, 2009, 06:54:03 PM
Sorry I know I never include this info.

its ok. I forget to say I am only using the pickup!

QuoteInput by protek powersupply ..
1.5 volts DC/.500amp

well, xee2 is not objecting, but I need to ask.
Is there any way for this power supply to sneek a little extra amperage into the circuit if it calls for it?

And, how could you tell?

I am still puzzled about why you have no trouble starting this up. or rather, why I do.But maybe a little surge is available?

Also, I will change the primary on mine to 2T,10T because the pickup has 240Turns and would be very close to both of yours.

I may have better luck this time than before.

Thank you for your good work and beautiful pictures,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 11, 2009, 08:18:33 PM

@xee2,
Wow,
Those are great tests. Thank you.
You answered many question in one little gif!
a gift of a gif. ;)

And are you always using a ceramic cap here? You already told me it was OK to use the can type which is polarized, but I am just checking.

thank you. this is great!,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 11, 2009, 08:35:24 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 11, 2009, 08:18:33 PM
And are you always using a ceramic cap here? You already told me it was OK to use the can type which is polarized, but I am just checking.

It is always better to use an unpolarized capacitor if possible. I am using polarized capacitors for the battery caps and unpolarized at the voltmeter.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 11, 2009, 09:04:15 PM

just cuz i like this coil ... ill add 2 more pics ..

this one has the mk2 transformer windings on it ... next i will add the mk2 generator windings on it ...

i will dubble the windings on that one ..

soon as i get it wound i ll build the jt's all npn ... but it dosent matter as i see it you need a second unit pnp doing the same thing ... but 1 at a time lol

the windings showen will get rectified to a SUPER CAP would be great but the only ones i had were small and sent out .. :(

so ill just use some RECHARGEABLE BATTERIES... and run from the source till they are charged then switch to them .. and let the SOURCE recharge ..

the 5 mk2 generator windings are additional outputs...

ist!

i fininshed all the mk2 windings .. there 10 mk2 windings on this toroide now .. 5 are transformers/ feedback coils .. and the other 5 are generator coils .. output ...

and for my next wire act .... :D lol i will add 22 ga magnet wire in laps 5 laps right ontop of the generators .... ;D

then tommorow ill build all the electronics of it .... 8)

sure is a busy little cridder lol ......

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nueview on July 12, 2009, 12:23:49 AM

has anyone tried winding one of these on a coil of wire as in one of teslas patents or just on ferrite rings it might prove interesting ?

martin

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 12, 2009, 12:47:55 AM

Hi Martin,
Check this page out and all the posts since then.
Â« Reply #8009 on: July 08, 2009, 08:55:17 AM Â»

Stprue and I and probably others uncounted have been doing this all this week. Your suggestion is almost right on time. ;)

thank you,

Are you making any of these yourself?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nueview on July 12, 2009, 03:02:36 AM

Jeanna

i made similar things along time ago and they were not well recieved i am interested in the batery charging aspect but follow the whole thread and many other things but have not done much since my son died what a waiste am somewhat ok with it now i am more into wind mills for low velocity wind power but what you are doing has off grid applications and am useing them even now but that is another story for another time.
my big interest is in how energy works for power reasons and that is not what you are all doing.
i have made these about ten years ago after reading an old radio handbook for ham radio. what you are doing has applications as to tesla's car and that interests me allot as does alexander frolovs work it really is all starting to look the same but hard to put into words done right you could run a car on a single battery from new york to albany or maybe allot farther.
will post some thoughts allong the way and when want to explore something new will then build it as always.

sincerely Martin

PS i asked the question because this may have significance to the biefield brown right angle capacitance of the lifter project and some of you are always looking for something new to try it can be viewed at the jln labs page as well as the tep.
must be getting old forgot why i suggested this and had to come back.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 12, 2009, 07:48:53 AM

@ resonananceman,

Quote from: resonanceman on July 09, 2009, 11:44:24 PM
Jim

Congratulations on your Bedini.

:)

Great work

From what I have been seeing it is not quite that simple .

I do agree that changing the base resistor will limit the voltage to the base ......but that is just the start .

I had hoped that I could just connect my LM coils to higher voltage and have higher power out .
It is not that simple .
The problem seems to inductance .
Our coils are efficient at 1.5V
At higher voltages they do not have enough inductance
I have a 2.5A "leak" through my C coil
I added a pot for compensating for the higher voltage .....adjusting that pot does not change the leak much .
Tomorow I will try to make a higher inductance coil

Can you take some resistance measurements off the coils in your cattle prod?
That would help give me an idea where to start .

thanks

gary

Hi gary,
Im not at home just now, Im elesewhere for the weekend.
I will let you know the resistance of the prods ASAIC (as soon as I can)

Thanks all for the congrads.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 12, 2009, 08:51:21 AM

Quote from: xee2 on July 11, 2009, 07:27:34 PM
@ stprue

Before you add the other side, could you check the output voltage using a diode and capacitor and then reverse the diode and see what the voltage is. My coils all give a very high voltage with the diode in one direction and a low voltage with the diode in the other direction.

Here are the results for my 2B-10C-80P coil. I would call your coil a 2B-10C-104P coil. They should be somewhat close.

Also, was your taransistor a 2N3005 or a 2N3055?

Sure I will do this later today! I would expect the same results as you but I will check! The transistor was a 2N3055.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 12, 2009, 09:05:20 AM

Quote from: jeanna on July 11, 2009, 08:10:54 PM
its ok. I forget to say I am only using the pickup!
well, xee2 is not objecting, but I need to ask.
Is there any way for this power supply to sneek a little extra amperage into the circuit if it calls for it?

And, how could you tell?

I am still puzzled about why you have no trouble starting this up. or rather, why I do.But maybe a little surge is available?

Also, I will change the primary on mine to 2T,10T because the pickup has 240Turns and would be very close to both of yours.

I may have better luck this time than before.

Thank you for your good work and beautiful pictures,

jeanna

It is always possible for extra amperage to sneak in but highly unlikely. My protek is a programable power supply that is very accurate. I'm not worried about that anyways because I set it for .5a but it always uses less but it could potentially use up to .5a. I always check to make sure it is not jumping around which it never does, in any sort of extreme way anyways. What I have noticed especally with the maxcaps is as the voltage increases the amperage and decreases as the frequency increases. What is happening is the maxcaps are sucking up as much amperage as they can before the coil hits maximum voltage. It then levels off.

I want to mess around with the base coil winding numbers to tune it better before I wind the other side, but I am happy with the results of this coil so far.

P.S. Is it an x2 style pickup dual sides? 240 seems like a lot! when I'm finished with this biggo it 208x2dual side windings for both pickups.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 12, 2009, 09:15:16 AM

Quote from: nueview on July 12, 2009, 03:02:36 AM
Jeanna

i made similar things along time ago and they were not well received i am interested in the battery charging aspect but follow the whole thread and many other things but have not done much since my son died what a waste am somewhat ok with it now i am more into wind mills for low velocity wind power but what you are doing has off grid applications and am useing them even now but that is another story for another time.
my big interest is in how energy works for power reasons and that is not what you are all doing.
i have made these about ten years ago after reading an old radio handbook for ham radio. what you are doing has applications as to tesla's car and that interests me allot as does alexander frolovs work it really is all starting to look the same but hard to put into words done right you could run a car on a single battery from new york to albany or maybe allot farther.
will post some thoughts allong the way and when want to explore something new will then build it as always.

sincerely Martin

PS i asked the question because this may have significance to the biefield brown right angle capacitance of the lifter project and some of you are always looking for something new to try it can be viewed at the jln labs page as well as the tep.
must be getting old forgot why i suggested this and had to come back.

Nice to have you here Martin, if you are in to windmil type stuff.. some of the newer things I have "windband technology" and DNA or S type design windmil. Pretty cool stuff. JLN is a great place to learn so feel free to experiment and post as much as possible.

P.S. Pictures are good!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 12, 2009, 11:05:00 AM

yes the applactions of the TESLA KICK TECK sure are something ... ;D

millions of uses ...

finished my IST 5555 COIL IT IS ALL WOUND ...

ILL FIRE IT UP TODAY AND FINISH THE ELECTRONICS TODAY ..

ist

teslas car .. well thats another thred :D

42 wire ends in my last 3 phase 2 freq tpu ..

like i mentioned earlyer on i found a toroide with the mk2 winding config from FACTORY.. in an old microwave ...

here is a pic of it ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 12, 2009, 02:08:34 PM

so i hooked up 1 phase jt with a 3904 for my first tests NO NEOS.. just 2 freqs untuned .. never even turned the pot yet ...

i wanted to scope the out puts of this coil first to INSURE I DID IT PROPERLY... lol

and yes i did ;D

on the mk2 tansformer windings /feedback i get 7 v spikes lots of them ... then on the mk2 generator winding . get 12 v spikes lots of them infact the same wave lol :D

then on the 50 turn generator winding i get 60 v ... i only scoped the first 3 coils so far i would expect the exact same results on all coils ..

and next i will do the accelerator collector coil ... the final one 6 laps on this unit ..

ist!

im getting about 40v spikes on my accelerator winding ... and many times the spikes per/waves then my other windings ... hummmm

;D

find O U yet ?

just cuz i like to take pictures and i do like my latest coil lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 12, 2009, 02:43:24 PM

yep even 1 more advancement for today ...

wanring .... nuf said there

try a rinnnnggggg over lap lol
what a delay from the led ... that fires 123 123

like i said ... ;)

if i catch you comeing back my way im gonna serve it to you

NOW that aint what you want to hear but thats what ill do ....

will~i~am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VutMLnjXTY4

jeanna ;D ;) eesh.... :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 12, 2009, 03:29:33 PM

Quote from: stprue on July 12, 2009, 09:05:20 AM

...

What I have noticed especially with the maxcaps is as the voltage increases the amperage and decreases as the frequency increases. What is happening is the maxcaps are sucking up as much amperage as they can before the coil hits maximum voltage. It then levels off.

?? as the voltage increases the amperage does what?

I think the amperage thing is trickier with AC than we have been led to believe.
We have a system that can fit into the little box of the dc circuit plan.
And that is all we know about it.
I don't know more either, so I cannot explain too much.
I do know, tesla discovered something that we are not using and I am determined (watch out! ;) ) to learn what it is and how we can use it.

QuoteP.S. Is it an x2 style pickup dual sides? 240 seems like a lot! when I'm finished with this biggo it 208x2dual side windings for both pickups.

It is a MK1 style pickup.
I wound 60 up- 60 down- then crossed over the primary and continued 60 up - 60 down.

Remember when finished I had less than I had with only the first 60 turns done.

I had room to tune on that one, though. I have no more room on the 'tesla's rotating magnet' style

How about 'TRM' for a name?

===
on the tor-23 with the winding as you drew it the other day...

I did a small battery test this morning before I completed taking the winds down.
I just wanted some numbers for possible later comparison so there is no need to share them, BUT
this strange thing is happening.
(- basically I was just watching the dying battery with lights off the pickup and checking for amps draw.)

In checking the amps draw on this circuit with 10 series leds as load off the pickup,
I saw the polarity change to backwards on the battery resistor.
I reversed the leads and the polarity was still backwards.

Once more for clarity:
Across the 10 ohm resistor in series with the pos battery lead, the amperage seems to be going into the battery rather than out of it!
This does not happen unless the resistor is there.
edit: well, how would I know? maybe it is. end edit.
I don't know if it is helping the battery to recover or not.
The battery was however recovering fast while I was doing the earlier part of the test.

I wonder if anyone else has had a reversal of polarity without any diodes?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 12, 2009, 03:55:30 PM

@ jeanna

The JT coil does send current back into the battery as high voltage pulses if there is no battery capacitor. However, the net current flow must be out of the battery because that is the only source of energy to power the circuit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 12, 2009, 03:56:58 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 12, 2009, 03:29:33 PM
?? as the voltage increases the amperage does what?

It slowly levels off on what it needs to use/run off the battery/power supply. It looks to me like after you tune it it tunes itself to be as efficient as possible at what you tuned it too.

I think the amperage thing is trickier with AC than we have been led to believe.
We have a system that can fit into the little box of the dc circuit plan.
And that is all we know about it.
I don't know more either, so I cannot explain too much.
I do know, tesla discovered something that we are not using and I am determined (watch out! ;) ) to learn what it is and how we can use it.

It is a MK1 style pickup.
I wound 60 up- 60 down- then crossed over the primary and continued 60 up - 60 down.

Remember when finished I had less than I had with only the first 60 turns done.

I had room to tune on that one, though. I have no more room on the 'tesla's rotating magnet' style
[/quote]
How about 'TRM' for a name?

I like it!!!

===
on the tor-23 with the winding as you drew it the other day...

I did a small battery test this morning before I completed taking the winds down.
I just wanted some numbers for possible later comparison so there is no need to share them, BUT
this strange thing is happening.
(- basically I was just watching the dying battery with lights off the pickup and checking for amps draw.)

In checking the amps draw on this circuit with 10 series leds as load off the pickup,
I saw the polarity change to backwards on the battery resistor.
I reversed the leads and the polarity was still backwards.

[/quote]
I think more needs to be learned o this, it sounds very interesting.

Once more for clarity:
Across the 10 ohm resistor in series with the pos battery lead, the amperage seems to be going into the battery rather than out of it!
This does not happen unless the resistor is there.
edit: well, how would I know? maybe it is. end edit.
I don't know if it is helping the battery to recover or not.
The battery was however recovering fast while I was doing the earlier part of the test.

I wonder if anyone else has had a reversal of polarity without any diodes?

jeanna
[/quote]

Not me!

P.S. I have been so busy today, I'm not sure if I will be able to wind today.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nueview on July 12, 2009, 04:33:49 PM

batteries can reverse polarity if they are over charged on the other thread were they are doing bettery charging a ground is required but you could also pull this charge from the air by using a coil with a longer frequency and a cap with a diode across the cap the circuit will now draw current to the resonating ciol and flow to the circuit as this happens you should see a scalar effect of a cooling of resisters due in part to a balancing of the mmf and emf.
you cannot think about these two as the same they are seperate this is the point tesla tried to make by his domenstrations the more you add to the circuits the more outside influence reacts with the internal circuit thus his obsession with volume.

Martin

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 12, 2009, 04:49:02 PM

well i hooked up the second phase jt ...

made a video ...

here ya go this demos what happens on the collector and all coils ...

ist

i will do a 3 phase video at some point this is an un tuned coil ... so far ..

im just doing the verry first tests and its coffee time :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5U_Jq8G50Y

peace

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 12, 2009, 04:52:59 PM

Quote from: nueview on July 12, 2009, 04:33:49 PM
batteries can reverse polarity if they are over charged

hmm yes, but this was anything but overcharged. It had 1.01v in my first test and then after 3 minutes, it had
.995v
then I looked at it through the resistor and the amps draw was
-22.7mA
then I put it back onto the load of lights then after 3 minutes read the battery voltage again.
It was .971v and the amps draw was
20.9mA

and so on...

Later, when the battery could no longer show a light when going through the resistor I checked a few last places.

voltage of battery terminals running 10 leds in series.
0.557v
same battery terminals but now with the leds and through the 10 ohm resistor
0.7v ( => higher through the resistor!)
across the 10 ohm resistor
- .156v= -15.6mA (=> negative value!)

Too bad I put the battery into the charger. That is all the tests I did.

no caps
no diodes

Quote...
you cannot think about these two as the same they are separate this is the point tesla tried to make by his demonstrations the more you add to the circuits the more outside influence reacts with the internal circuit thus his obsession with volume.

Martin

I am afraid I cannot understand most of your post.
I have a question about this part..
What is he adding?

Quotethus his obsession with volume.

volume of what? voltage?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nueview on July 12, 2009, 05:44:23 PM

oh boy this could take allot to explain

ok here goes all matter is composed of a voltage emf component and a mmf component these two components can be stressed to give a dipole this stress can allow for energy to be lost or accumulated through electrophorus depending on wether you are generating it through voltage or by charge current altering these yeilds isotopes the circuit is emersed in a surrounding field that can be upset by either force why does a resistor work because there is a energy difference in the carbon either through spin or charge flux disopation with the air if a bare wire is set it the air it will not have the same capacitive value to the air as a coated wire the surface tention value will change pick any pointon the JT circuit and place one end of the cap the other end goes to a coil with a wire open to the air a diode across the cap and as the voltage rises the cap will charge the mmf will build in the coil and when the voltage begins to drop the current will continue to flow through the diode to the circuit.

sorry i have to go but will be back

Martin

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 12, 2009, 05:50:33 PM

@ Jeanna

TRM is complete but still not right...I dont think it will work if the base and collector coils are not in the x2 set up. I will wind this to prove the theory at some point soon.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 12, 2009, 06:03:58 PM

Quote from: stprue on July 12, 2009, 05:50:33 PM
@ Jeanna

TRM is complete but still not right

Good,

it is complete... I took mine out so it is no longer complete! ;)
but not right?
do you mean no voltage is now less than it was with one quarter?

Quote...I dont think it will work if the base and collector coils are not in the x2 set up.

Are yours the hazens style? I remember thinking they were.

OR, by x2 do you mean crossed over and in 2 directions total?

We will see. I am making mine with both primary at 4 directions and also the pickup in the same 4 parts or quarters inside where the primary left a bare spot on the toroid.

I am rewinding in separated sections.
I think the MK2 directions are for this sort of thing. -- You make the turns then figure out which combo works the best.
I am making a code on the wire ends so I can tell them apart.

@Ist,

Are you twisting the leads together in that very neat fashion for a reason?
There are people who call this a mobius. (I don't like the name, but they love it. so, ok. I would rather call it a double spiral.. oh well.) Is there a mobius reason for the twisting?

thank you both,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 12, 2009, 10:47:53 PM

HERE IS MY 3 PHASE 2 FREQ JT SCOPED...

IST 8)

COLLECTOR / ACCELERATOR AND MK2 GENERATOR

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhPwuxk7T2g

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 12, 2009, 11:20:55 PM

While I wait for ist's video to load...
I will report the same kind of loss with the TRM that I had yesterday.
43v for one section
now I have finished another section
43v, so basically the same, but the 2 together only make 50v.
I will try again, but the I left the scope on earlier and the batteries ran down. so tomorrow will be the earliest to compare these data, but it looks like there is a funny thing here.

Now, if I could understand phase a bit more, maybe this is just phased not so well.
Maybe on a larger core where the frequency was lower to begin with I'd have more leeway with the base resistor.

Or, maybe there is another way to tune this.

Maybe there is something else like another inductor that could tune them together better...

I will try to get 4 quarters in the center, but maybe there is only room for 4 with fewer turns.

OK to ist's video. 3 transistors! wow ist.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 12, 2009, 11:45:00 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 12, 2009, 11:20:55 PM
While I wait for ist's video to load...
I will report the same kind of loss with the TRM that I had yesterday.
43v for one section
now I have finished another section
43v, so basically the same, but the 2 together only make 50v.
I will try again, but the I left the scope on earlier and the batteries ran down. so tomorrow will be the earliest to compare these data, but it looks like there is a funny thing here.

Now, if I could understand phase a bit more, maybe this is just phased not so well.
Maybe on a larger core where the frequency was lower to begin with I'd have more leeway with the base resistor.

Or, maybe there is another way to tune this.

Maybe there is something else like another inductor that could tune them together better...

I will try to get 4 quarters in the center, but maybe there is only room for 4 with fewer turns.

OK to ist's video. 3 transistors! wow ist.

jeanna

I BET THERE LOTS OF WAYS TO TUNE THIS ... ;)

YEP THE 3 PHASES ON 1 COLLECTOR IS THE COOL PART ... ;D

JUST FULLLLLL MILLIONS OF SPIKES .... LOL

all of thease scope shots are from my 6 lap accelerator / collector coil ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 13, 2009, 12:15:58 AM

Quote from: jeanna on July 12, 2009, 11:20:55 PM

Now, if I could understand phase a bit more, maybe this is just phased not so well.

Hum, that is the reason i insisted on the diodes . Doesn't the scope show you that ...

Now you know that changing the pickup coil changes also the impedance and freq , i must insist again , the only logical way to determine the best design is to tune them to there maximum efficiency with the base resistor , that way you compere apple with apple . so connecting 2 pickup coil together will change the freq with a change of freq a change in voltage also happen ...

Mark

@ist

To see the holly ghost (the spirit freq) you need 2 freq at the same time .

I wish you could redo the last video , with a proper scope set up , i am sure it will help everyone including your self .

You may get more responses ... even if it needs a dead battery.

Or your scope can't see it ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 13, 2009, 12:23:26 AM

indeed mk1

but this is only npn the pnp unit that will be SYNCED THEN RUN THROUGH 2 ACCELERATOR TPU LOOPS

is not built yet ...

sheesh bro ... im a trying ... :)

ist!

but lets get this unit tuned properly wich means i need better control over the shifting freq... and the 1$ ramma chaser just wont let me varrie that aspect of the coil yet ...

plus its the first run on the unit ... i think i have done well enough for 1 day ...

;D

night all

peace!

sheesh i forgot the best pictures ;D ok now im done with the camera for a bit :D

same coil scoped ...

BTW MK1 MY COILS WILL WORK JUST FINE THANK YOU!!! LOL

BEATS THE HELL OUT OF A JT .. OR A MK2 SERIES COIL ...

I HAVE A SIMPLE DESIGN I WILL EMPLOY ;)

AND ITS ALREADY POSTED BY ME OF COURSE ..... ;)

AND PROBALLY LONG B4 THE MK2 SERIES COILS CAME ALONG ... ;D ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 13, 2009, 10:16:24 AM

Quote from: jeanna on July 12, 2009, 06:03:58 PM
Good,

it is complete... I took mine out so it is no longer complete! ;)
but not right?
do you mean no voltage is now less than it was with one quarter?

Are yours the hazens style? I remember thinking they were.

OR, by x2 do you mean crossed over and in 2 directions total?

We will see. I am making mine with both primary at 4 directions and also the pickup in the same 4 parts or quarters inside where the primary left a bare spot on the toroid.

I am rewinding in separated sections.
I think the MK2 directions are for this sort of thing. -- You make the turns then figure out which combo works the best.
I am making a code on the wire ends so I can tell them apart.

jeanna

Yes the voltage went down to 31 volts and I think because the base and collector coils (Hazen style) can only be set up for one direction but this TRM design requires dual directions so an x2 style base/collector ciols is required....I think!

I'm not sure on the perm and other stats of the biggo but I had really good results with only half wound biggo. I want to set up a small goldmine torroid the same way! I should be able to get some good results with that.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 13, 2009, 10:20:12 AM

Quote from: jeanna on July 12, 2009, 11:20:55 PM
While I wait for ist's video to load...
I will report the same kind of loss with the TRM that I had yesterday.
43v for one section
now I have finished another section
43v, so basically the same, but the 2 together only make 50v.
I will try again, but the I left the scope on earlier and the batteries ran down. so tomorrow will be the earliest to compare these data, but it looks like there is a funny thing here.

Now, if I could understand phase a bit more, maybe this is just phased not so well.
Maybe on a larger core where the frequency was lower to begin with I'd have more leeway with the base resistor.

Or, maybe there is another way to tune this.

Maybe there is something else like another inductor that could tune them together better...

I will try to get 4 quarters in the center, but maybe there is only room for 4 with fewer turns.

OK to ist's video. 3 transistors! wow ist.

jeanna

You may want to try to wind it regular and not in the MK way! I don't think this type of design is made for that type of design but I could be wrong.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 13, 2009, 11:03:44 AM

im building the same thing i just did on the IST 5555 coil ..

but with 3 1" toroides ..
the jt's are 12" cat 5 wire .. 6 turns ...
i will not add the 50 turn generator windings or transformer winding just 1 feedback coil .. and 1 collector / accelerator winding ..

ill do 1 phase per toroide ...

ist!

here is 3 6 turn jt's on 3 toroides .. i choose 6 turns .....and mk1 ... it has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE RESONANCE OF THE CORE MATERIAL!! :P

maybe yours do but mine dont lol tell me why !!

cuz ill add the neos ... and that changes the CORE RESONANCE OF THE TOROIDE ...

so what have i got in my picture below ... ?

3 rotating magic feilds about 3 diffrent toroides tied togather by magnets?

humm

so now what i guess my 2.5 5 and 7.5 hz fit in this mess some where ..... ;D 8)

but were still pissing around with flash lights ...

so piss round with flashlights ... lol when you figure it out ... who ya gonna come see... ?

thats right overunity!!

this is forced pulse rotation of magnetics by winding ... ;)

you all think ill rip a few FREE electrons off the magnets? ;D

FINALLY .... MK1 CONTACT ME ASAP!

NO MORE FLASHLIGHTS FOR THIS BOY !! ;D

SO I JUST GOT A FONE CALL FROM 1 OF MY POTENCIAL INVESTORS I HAVE DEMOED IN THE LAST YEAR TO ...

8)

BOUT TIME THEY WOKE UP :D

my last picture reminds me much about how your charakas work lol what my rocks and the staffs ... hummmm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 13, 2009, 01:31:14 PM

what if i could do this from accelerating the spinnnnnnn in the toroide ... ;D

no im not saying i HAVE DONE THIS im saying WHAT IF I CAN DO THIS ....

and some inspration

crack the sky

ist!

now that i posted this

ILL post MY DESIGN THAT GOES RIGHT ALONG WITH IT ...... :D

round or square i dont care coil or no coil ... air core or ferroite magnetic ...

all of it works on what i exposed and solved .. ;) ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 13, 2009, 01:37:54 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on July 13, 2009, 01:31:14 PM
what if i could do this from accelerating the spinnnnnnn in the toroide ... ;D

no im not saying i HAVE DONE THIS im saying WHAT IF I CAN DO THIS ....

and some inspration

crack the sky

ist!

Not sure what you mean by this ???

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 13, 2009, 02:05:47 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on July 13, 2009, 12:15:58 AM
Hum, that is the reason i insisted on the diodes . Doesn't the scope show you that ...

Now you know that changing the pickup coil changes also the impedance and freq , i must insist again , the only logical way to determine the best design is to tune them to there maximum efficiency with the base resistor , that way you compare apple with apple . so connecting 2 pickup coil together will change the freq with a change of freq a change in voltage also happen ...

I just do not understand how you can say you know what is happening when all you can see is an amount of voltage in a capacitor?????????
Where is the diode that is teaching this to you?
I do not understand, I am sorry, but I just don't follow this.

Yes, the scope showed me, but the problem was:
My base resistor was too low and the transistor started to overheat.
It was at 0.5 ohm at the highest voltage.
It is too low and simply will kill the transistor.
Then the pulsing will stop.

BTW there is a definite polarity shown on the pickup. It is very strong. Almost nothing goes below the x axis on this.

So, with the tuner being the base resistor I must stop at zero ohm. And, I hope there is another way to tune this because I am out of room.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 13, 2009, 02:12:06 PM

im running all my transistors at 4.5vdc and NO FEAR OF HEAT ... PEROID!

IST!

but when i ran in 1 time .. they would blow .. ;D ;) and get darn hot plus i uped my resistance ... :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 13, 2009, 02:33:29 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 13, 2009, 02:05:47 PM
I just do not understand how you can say you know what is happening when all you can see is an amount of voltage in a capacitor?????????
Where is the diode that is teaching this to you?
I do not understand, I am sorry, but I just don't follow this.

Yes, the scope showed me, but the problem was:
My base resistor was too low and the transistor started to overheat.
It was at 0.5ohm at the highest voltage.
It is too low and simply will kill the transistor.
Then the pulsing will stop.

BTW there is a definite polarity shown on the pickup. It is very strong. Almost nothing goes below the x axis on this.

So, with the tuner being the base resistor I must stop at zero ohm. And, I hope there is another way to tune this because I am out of room.

thank you,

jeanna

Ok , diode are directional devices , they show current flow direction , this is not related to the wave shape ...

Checking the pickup coil voltage with a diode both ways then comparing with the full bridge voltage is how a visualize the wave and get a idea of what is going on , then comparing ac and dc reading , this and my brain replace the scope .

Yet again something new , and a bit more complicated , and have to analyze the result for getting a full picture , what those number mean ...

I am getting tired of this game , why would i even waist my time if it wasn't right ...

And by the way i am pretty sure you can find all this info online nothing new here.

As for the secondary , don't ask me how i know , your carefully taken data speak beyond the numbers , if you have one secondary made of 2 coil placed at different location on a toroid the coil phase is different , and the first coil will effect the second one , this send energy back in the toroid , changing the reaction of the base coil ...

If having a scope means forgetting to use brain cell , i don't need one .

The data is only good if they speak to you , otherwise its useless waist of time .

But , fell free to investigate ,test , and show data proving me wrong .
That would be more efficient then asking me how a can see the invisible .

I know you can do it , keep the good work .

Mark

I don't think killing a transistor is a issue for anyone else , now if you are aiming for higher resistance result then play with a tank , or find a design that works for you this is all part of the designing ... the result in this case are not to your liking then change the design...

There are many ways to fix the working freq , resistor , coil ,tank , timer , quarts ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 13, 2009, 02:45:50 PM

Quote from: stprue on July 13, 2009, 10:20:12 AM
You may want to try to wind it regular and not in the MK way!

I have a lot of mk style.
I made them starting in january and they are very good.
I have been wanting to try the tesla rotating magnet toroid for a while.
I am using my last unwound tor-23 and it is little and loves a very high frequency.

The xtree (same tor-23) gets 141 volts and is wound in the evilmadscientist way on the primary. The pickup is made with a mess of wires on a sort even style inside, but it almost fills the center. The added 21T pickup does fill the center.
So, I am wanting to find out what makes a good wind, when this messy design works.
==
EDIT: It is really not messy in the inside. In between each wire of the primary I slipped 5 pickup wires. When I got to the end and needed to make this 74 turns, I just added them all in one area.
Hmm, now that I say this, I wonder if I found a good way to wind after all. Maybe if I had slipped 7 pickup turns in between the primary bifilar wires, I would have a really good one.
(It was 74 turns because I was matching the xebraK which has 74 pickup turns.)
end edit.
==
(My Modus Operandi is to find out how things work, more than to get them to work, although I like that too!)

QuoteI don't think this type of design is made for that type of design but I could be wrong.

huh?
once more, please?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 13, 2009, 03:00:47 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on July 13, 2009, 02:33:29 PM
.... to analyze the result for getting a full picture , what those number mean ...

All right.
I do not see it, but if I AM able to see it with a scope, then I am glad I spent the money.
I would be unable to do much of this because I cannot visualize what you do.

QuoteI am getting tired of this game , why would i even waist my time if it wasn't right ...

Maybe it is time to stop making it a game, and just come out with it straight up?

QuoteAnd by the way i am pretty sure you can find all this info online nothing new here.

Maybe you can... I am just learning.

...

Quote
But , fell free to investigate ,test , and show data proving me wrong ...

That is far from what I am trying to do.
I am an experimenter and an investigator.
If my questions make you think I am trying to prove you wrong, then I apologize.
I never intended to say this... I only want to know; and, when I do not understand something I ask; and, when it is contrary to something I understand already I ask again... but so I can learn, NOT so I can prove anybody wrong.

so again I apologize,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 13, 2009, 03:04:59 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 13, 2009, 02:45:50 PM
I have a lot of mk style.
I made them starting in january and they are very good.
I have been wanting to try the tesla rotating magnet toroid for a while.
I am using my last unwound tor-23 and it is little and loves a very high frequency.

The xtree (same tor-23) gets 141 volts and is wound in the evilmadscientist way on the primary. The pickup is made with a mess of wires on a sort even style inside, but it almost fills the center. The added 21T pickup does fill the center.
So, I am wanting to find out what makes a good wind, when this messy design works.

(My Modus Operandi is to find out how things work, more than to get them to work, although I like that too!)
huh?
once more, please?

thank you,

jeanna

What I mean is that you wind up then down but this design crosses over at 90 degrees so if you wind back to your starting position you wont be in the same crossover area. Like I said though...I'm not sure!

I'm winding a small one pickup version x2 style b/c coils. I will post results tonight.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 13, 2009, 03:08:59 PM

@jeanna

This is strait talk, i am just trying to teach you something you obviously mist , but i am on the border line to not caring anymore ...

Mark

Btw i has basic electronic lessons plus on of my room mate studied at some equivalent of MIT and most times i help him make grades, music show me quantum mechanic , i also have a fine art degree that showed me to keep a open mind , and creative skills , and i am also one of the best chess player in this world ...

This is unlike me barging , but i am no dummy ....

Please prove me wrong , i beg you too , if that is the only way you will learn , i did not assume that you wanted to prove me wrong , it just another try at teaching you something you are missing .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 13, 2009, 03:32:48 PM

MK1
I could be wrong, but I may not be the only one who has missed what you are saying.
There may be others on the forum who also do not understand you.

For a long time I was the only one who even tried to understand your words enough to make your designs.
Many others will benefit if you will just describe what you are trying to say.
I mean not in game form.
Your drawings help, but now, you are not drawing and you are trying to say something that I cannot follow.
Or, maybe you aren't.
Maybe, you are just playing a game.

Again, please do not take offense.
I am just talking straight and trying to be clear.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 13, 2009, 03:38:07 PM

@J&M

Don't make war make coils!

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 13, 2009, 03:44:43 PM

@jeanna

I am talking about the diodes . they are good for learning some stuff.

There again you misunderstood me , but i don't think , the way i express my self would change that .

I did not mind taking all that time teaching you how to make the coil my way , but when you are missing out on valuable data , that will help you . But when you are missing my point on a consistent base ,making it sound like you know better when you are missing the idea all along . Now i have a dilemma do i care or not , i did .

Mark

Good luck !

You can bring one horse to the water , but can not make him drink...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 13, 2009, 04:26:59 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on July 13, 2009, 03:44:43 PM
@jeanna

I am talking about the diodes . they are good for learning some stuff.

Beyond the direction what stuff?
I know the direction, but what am I supposed to see?

...

Quote
but when you are missing out on valuable data , that will help you . But when you are missing my point on a consistent base

DOES ANYBODY KNOW WHAT MK1 IS TRYING TO TEACH ME?

thank you from both of us,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 13, 2009, 04:43:02 PM

well a pissin match ... yikes ...

sorry guys ...

mk1 the diodes... yes do teach much ...

but i want all expairmenters to bear in mind there many ways to the same ....

jeanna you have done the most wonderful job of documantion and tests of anyone ...

we all are playing are parts.. and its only a game if you live a game ...

i gave up on games .. no i could have never done all i have with out each and everyone on this site and involved in my life.. PEROID...

lets ask the big question how rodin solved his math ....

well a team of course ... i dont want to make silly flashlights ...

while i watch MY WORLD DESTORY ITS SELF ....

and the diodes .... use a few :D send some 1 way and send some the other way ...

sheesh... lol ;)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 13, 2009, 05:07:07 PM

@all

Here is the mini TRM aka x2x2

1 inch goldmine toriod
26 guage mag wire x2 base/collector coil 6 turns each side 3b and 3c.....40 each side on pickup for a total of 80
2N3055 transistor
800v@1a bridge full wave
400v metalised polyister cap
maxcaps (3)
500v Pot 1 turn set at 178.7ohms

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 13, 2009, 05:10:37 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on July 13, 2009, 04:43:02 PM
well a pissin match ... yikes ...

sorry guys ...

mk1 the diodes... yes do teach much ...

but i want all expairmenters to bear in mind there many ways to the same ....

jeanna you have done the most wonderful job of documantion and tests of anyone ...

we all are playing are parts.. and its only a game if you live a game ...

i gave up on games .. no i could have never done all i have with out each and everyone on this site and involved in my life.. PEROID...

lets ask the big question how rodin solved his math ....

well a team of course ... i dont want to make silly flashlights ...

while i watch MY WORLD DESTORY ITS SELF ....

and the diodes .... use a few :D send some 1 way and send some the other way ...

sheesh... lol ;)

ist!

LOL heheheheheh

IST you really crack me up.......comic relief!!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 13, 2009, 05:36:50 PM

Quote from: stprue on July 13, 2009, 05:07:07 PM
@all

Here is the mini TRM aka x2x2

1 inch goldmine toriod
26 guage mag wire x2 base/collector coil 6 turns each side 3b and 3c.....40 each side on pickup for a total of 80
2N3055 transistor
800v@1a bridge full wave
400v metalised polyister cap
maxcaps (3)
500v Pot 1 turn set at 178.7ohms

Nice pix as always.
Is that 800v output? or 306v?

So, let me guess. You made the primary in the x2 style looks great.
for the pickup you started one way 40 turns, then you crossed over the center and continued but this time where you wound lets say over toward the center on the first half, now, on the opposite side winding in the opposite direction, you are now winding from the center under and then on the outside up and over the top.

Is that right?
I am not good with this magnetic direction thing, but I think that means the mag field from the inside of the toroid is not being changed by the pickup.
Yes?

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 13, 2009, 05:39:58 PM

Quote from: stprue on July 13, 2009, 05:10:37 PM
LOL heheheheheh

IST you really crack me up.......comic relief!!!!

i like to crack people up lol

its fun to tickel them ... ;) :D

but the reality of the jt is big clive figured it out and we can ask where HE GOT IT FROM... lol

oh yes MUST HAVE BEEN TESLA LOL!

NOW WHERE DID TESLA GET IT FROM ..

right the egyptians ... ;)

and now the crystal tuned toys are almost solved ... where did my really advanced things come from ...

lol

peace

stop argueing and get to building ....

IST

btw nice work as always stpure!!!! 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 13, 2009, 05:50:27 PM

@stprue

Nice looking coil , will you be putting a second pickup coil going the other way , 180 phase ?

Keep it up , nice work

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 13, 2009, 06:07:07 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 13, 2009, 05:36:50 PM
Nice pix as always.
Is that 800v output? or 306v?

So, let me guess. You made the primary in the x2 style looks great.
for the pickup you started one way 40 turns, then you crossed over the center and continued but this time where you wound lets say over toward the center on the first half, now, on the opposite side winding in the opposite direction, you are now winding from the center under and then on the outside up and over the top.

Is that right?
I am not good with this magnetic direction thing, but I think that means the mag field from the inside of the toroid is not being changed by the pickup.
Yes?

thanks,

jeanna

I wish it was 800...but no it was 306 still not too bad for a small coil. The rest of what you said is perfectly accurate. This was a proof of concept....not I will make the same thing with 2 pickups. If I get better results then I will make/rework the biggo.

I think we should all use the tems base/collector coils instead of primary. It really makes everything fool proof especially for newbies.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 13, 2009, 06:13:06 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on July 13, 2009, 05:50:27 PM
@stprue

Nice looking coil , will you be putting a second pickup coil going the other way , 180 phase ?

Keep it up , nice work

Mark

My next one will be to add a second pickup on one of these little goldmine coils. If I get better results then I will make a biggo out of it....if not then I will make a biggo like this little one you see.

and if that doesn't work then I will make something else...hehe

One thing I still need to try is a few different transistors on this I have like 6 or 7 different kinds and all will give different results. Thats the fun in electroincs though..so many different ways to do somethings and everything needs to be specifically tuned...well with JT's anyway.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 13, 2009, 06:15:10 PM

new goal.....

get over 1000v on a goldmine!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 13, 2009, 06:16:54 PM

@Pirate

How are things progressing on the new transformer EB's looks like ground amplification on input voltage! Tesla???

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 13, 2009, 06:48:09 PM

Quote from: stprue on July 13, 2009, 06:15:10 PM
new goal.....

get over 1000v on a goldmine!

YOUR ON BRO !! WANNA RACE ... 8) :D

LOL!!

its no fair your already 3/4 done :D ;) plus my gold mines dont come in till next week :(

CAN I DO IT 3 PHASE PLEASE PRETTY PLEASE .... LOL

oh yea its just 1000v not 100 000 v :D

your so freqin funny stpure LMAO

"How are things progressing on the new transformer EB's looks like ground amplification on input voltage! Tesla???"

IST! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

stpure...... i thought the way you phrased that and the way i intreperted it was funny .. thats all ..... what did you think ... btw since im shifting to 4th dimentinon in 3 dimintion i intruptrt things on a few leveles ... lol how about you ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 13, 2009, 06:58:56 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on July 13, 2009, 06:48:09 PM

"How are things progressing on the new transformer EB's looks like ground amplification on input voltage! Tesla???"

I think thats it right there in fact it's been there....What do you think???

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 13, 2009, 07:04:36 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on July 13, 2009, 06:48:09 PM
YOUR ON BRO !! WANNA RACE ... 8) :D

LOL!!

its no fair your already 3/4 done :D ;) plus my gold mines dont come in till next week :(

CAN I DO IT 3 PHASE PLEASE PRETTY PLEASE .... LOL

oh yea its just 1000v not 100 000 v :D

OK @ all rules are that it has to be a 1'' goldmine torroid and no voltage multiplier add on's.

No more then 1.5v/battery perferred

basic....basic.....basic

The goal is simple coil pure performance.

Anything else I missed?????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 13, 2009, 07:07:18 PM

64volts.
This is looking close to maximum.
I put 3 quarters on separately and each one adds less to the total.
It is looking like diminishing returns.
And, it really wants the primary to be in clear quarters. I mean a real cross. The voltage was down at like 48v then I saw that the quarters were kind of squished together, so I made them really square. a real cross, and it helped, but it is not progressing well.

I think stprue has it for this kind of thing.

Make the secondary/pickup go in such a way that all the direction stuff is happening in the primary.

I am curious to see what will happen with another pickup.
The other thing I am curious about is this.

Stprue, would you please check something for me?
Using a battery and not using those caps, count how much the pickup voltage goes down for each superbright.

Please remember to put 20 in series first, so you don't blow them, then find the best number for brightness, then tell me how many volts are there with that number of superbrights.

I am asking because not all my configurations go down by the same amount when lighting the leds.
I am wondering what that is about.
Could it be directionality? Shape of the wave being ac or more dc??

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 13, 2009, 07:14:31 PM

until i get my gold mines ill continue with my 3 phase 3 ring unit and find my best collector pickup accelerator winding ...

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 13, 2009, 07:18:26 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 13, 2009, 07:07:18 PM
64volts.
This is looking close to maximum.
I put 3 quarters on separately and each one adds less to the total.
It is looking like diminishing returns.
And, it really wants the primary to be in clear quarters. I mean a real cross. The voltage was down at like 48v then I saw that the quarters were kind of squished together, so I made them really square. a real cross, and it helped, but it is not progressing well.

I think stprue has it for this kind of thing.

Make the secondary/pickup go in such a way that all the direction stuff is happening in the primary.

I am curious to see what will happen with another pickup.
The other thing I am curious about is this.

Stprue, would you please check something for me?
Using a battery and not using those caps, count how much the pickup voltage goes down for each superbright.

Please remember to put 20 in series first, so you don't blow them, then find the best number for brightness, then tell me how many volts are there with that number of superbrights.

I am asking because not all my configurations go down by the same amount when lighting the leds.
I am wondering what that is about.
Could it be directionality? Shape of the wave being ac or more dc??

thank you,

jeanna

I am done playing tonight But I can do that for you. I think you are right about the above because even with my MK design giving out like 30volts or so it actually looks like it lights as well or better then a different design with more output voltage! This I have seen...

You should try this little coil I just made simple and relatively efficient!

I keep thinking aobut my veerrrrryyyyyy unfinished biggo pumping out over 700. I wonder what that will do when it is full?

I think all of are problems right now is that we do not have the amps to do heavy work...this secret will lead to the loop and OU. Tesla....Jeanna....I think it is with him and you are the one reading his stuff now so I will wait to see what you learn...hummmmm I need to start reading his stuff!!!

P.S. Join the goldmine challenge ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 13, 2009, 08:35:02 PM

Quote from: stprue on July 13, 2009, 07:18:26 PM
I am done playing tonight But I can do that for you. I think you are right about the above because even with my MK design giving out like 30volts or so it actually looks like it lights as well or better then a different design with more output voltage! This I have seen...

which is the reason I am so curious and, bye the way, so surprised that xee2 was able to light a fluorotube with 2T,19T,80T turns and the biggo. It only made thin little spikes and very occasionally. nothing really, and yet gave results. very curious, that.

Quote...Tesla....Jeanna....I think it is with him and you are the one reading his stuff now so I will wait to see what you learn...hummmmm I need to start reading his stuff!!!

It sure would be nice to have company in that.

It was really astounding to see what the EE's of his 1892 took for granted. So much that the details are hard to get. You need to gleen them.

For instance, they all used an induction coil and they all measured the amount of 'electricity' by looking at sparks.
It was almost their measuring device as our neon is.
They had and used varnished mag wire, which I didn't realize. (and that tidbit only came out as an aside)
There is a lot of information in what Tesla does not have to tell his audience because they knew it already, and yet we hardly do.

Yes, it will be very nice to have someone else get into this. On that russian geo thread bill started, I gave lots of encouragement to look into tesla, but no one wanted to read it. Thanks to bolt some are now interested. All the information on that is right in tesla's writings. That Georgian guy built a tesla power unit and you can too, but read tesla first, then see that video.

QuoteP.S. Join the goldmine challenge ;)

Hehe, that means I need to get them out of the shoebox. Most of my mediums are wrapped as loosers. I suppose it would be good to do that.

But what I really want to do is this:
I would like to take one output of 100v and split it into 2 parts and increase each part to 100v without messing with the other one... but that is another thread.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 13, 2009, 08:35:52 PM

@ stprue

Quote from: stprue on July 13, 2009, 05:07:07 PM
@all

Here is the mini TRM aka x2x2

1 inch goldmine toriod
26 guage mag wire x2 base/collector coil 6 turns each side 3b and 3c.....40 each side on pickup for a total of 80
2N3055 transistor
800v@1a bridge full wave
400v metalised polyister cap
maxcaps (3)
500v Pot 1 turn set at 178.7ohms

Looks good. 306 volts DC out of rectifier should mean slightly over 400 volts peak going into rectifier. That may just be enough to light a tube. If you have a neon, can you check if both electrodes light when it is put across pickup coil output leads?

EDIT: Well maybe not over 400 volts peak going into rectifier. What is capacitance value of your 400 volt capacitor and is it across the rectifier outputs?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 13, 2009, 11:03:14 PM

you guys lol

who made the WIZE crack bout the dead battery LOL LOL LOL

IST !!

;D :D

ill find the post yet!! lol

you guys crack me up lol

i threw togather this small unit 4 coil 1 wire 4 turn unit .. 4x4 lol

it ramps up it sounds like it does anyhow .. i scoped it and i see a faint wave move on the scope if i pulse it it will ramp stop and ramp ... it sounds cool ..

but yet i am not tapping much output from it but is sure is fast ...

and since im right out of 1 " units... i built a lazy air core .. and im getting the most unexpected results .. i took out a relay coil short and long of it when i place the non wired relay coil ontop of the air coil they kinda sync and pulse.. im getting 150 v there bouts from the air core and 3-4 v on the relay coil verry fast wave way over my scope i thought the battery was dead and self pulasteing :D ;D but no that is not the case ...

it only does this when i place the relay coil ontop of the secondary air core ...

hummm transformer ? then magnet ? i dont know .. it does kind of look like that is the case ...

weird ...

i used a magnet and it does push a tiny bit aginst it ... the magnet did not seem to affect the self pualsting wave ...

so there ya go i grabed the dead battery trick and showed you some crazy air core syncing effect

ill take a pic if you all want me 2

hows that for tuneing in ;) ;D

MADE A LITTLE VIDEO ... 8) ill post the link.. when it finishes up loading

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 13, 2009, 11:37:25 PM

Go ahead ist,
I like your pictures, and could you describe 4 x 4 better?
1 wire 4 turns? or 1 wire 4 coils of 4 turns?

Stprue,
I found this. You were once there at a tesla thread, but I just made a small screenshot of the 2 completely separate outputs which are part of the TRM patent.

Then I also noticed that after all that messing with the picture, I saw I had wound it wrong. Maybe that is why I had such a problem. I remembered it right but had it in mind to do it wrong! eesh!

It is a primary wound the way you wound the first half of your secondary.
I think I will wind a secondary as tesla suggests and have that on the inside. Then I can make adjustments to my primary as I need to.

here it is.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 13, 2009, 11:55:32 PM

here is a picture jeanna

this is 4 turns jump 4 turns jump...... 1 dirrection .. it makes a ramp up sound ..

but it is the next effect i see a big intrest in .. ill demo the ramp up effect too on video so you can hear it ..

i wonder about a dead battery as a pulser .. for the ramper ... lol

ist! ;D

BTW IN THE NEXT UNIT IM ONLY USEING 1 GATE KEEPER ... AND I HAVE A LONGGGGGGG RINGINGGGGG PULSE OF SPIKES RETURN ... IM GETTING BETTER RESULTS WITH THIS SETUP THAN THE 5555 COIL

SHEESH DARE I ASK WHATS NEXT ?!?!?!

IT MIGHT BE THE DEAD BATTERY THAT HAS ME HERE ILL HAVE TO TRY IT WITH A FRESH 1... HUMMMM

OK IT WAS THE DEAD BATTERY BUT I THINK THERE IS FAR MORE TO THE DEAD BATTERY THAN I FIRST REALIZED ..

plus with this aircore and a fresh aa i get around 300 v and on the relay im getting about 10v

but its not pulseing on its own so it was the dead battery :D

jeanna your really awesome ...

ill wind it on my big toride once it is figured out a bit more i only want to wind it once .. :)

here is the video i made of the pulsateing effect ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znLRuwXsBG4

now im sure there is more to it than the battery being dead maybe it is a voltage thing ..... hummmm

got me to thinking ... now...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 14, 2009, 12:26:16 AM

@ Gary,
Sorry I'm a day late, got sidetracked in town by the GP, had a EKG and a blood test I wasnt figuring on, tickers OK, BP is up a bit.
Ha ha, the DOC wants to see the Bedini so he shall.
Took the opertunity and asked GP, Nurses where I could get my hands on a redundent EEG or EKG machine, they couldnt tell me, so I asked them where do they send broken gear to get it fixed, they still couldn't tell me.

So if there is a person reading this in the aeather, who lives in Aussie does know where I gould get a "redundent/broken EEG or EKG machine, would they PM me please, TA.

Quote from: electricme on July 12, 2009, 07:48:53 AM
@ resonananceman,

Hi gary,
Im not at home just now, Im elese where for the weekend.
I will let you know the resistance of the prods ASAIC (as soon as I can)

Thanks all for the congrads.

jim

Hi Gary, I just got home, ok HERE ARE THE RESISTANCES OF THE COILS YOU ASKED FOR.

Coil 1 4.1 ohms Between base resistor and pos
Coil 2 1.9 ohms Between pos and Collector, other leg of this coil connect to Neg

Output coil .601K ohms

Resistor 236.6 ohms

Hope this helps you.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 14, 2009, 12:33:27 AM

@Stprue,

Quote from: stprue on July 10, 2009, 03:52:28 PM
Think about it though....what if one of us was able to make a design that continued to excellerate on it's own....kinda sounds like a TPU which always caught my attention. Sorry ranting on a daydream again! ;D

That's what I'm trying to do, ;) and the daydream bit toooo ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on July 14, 2009, 12:47:30 AM

Has anyone tried a low frequency crystal oscillator on this circuit? ..and how would it's circuit diagram look?

I've thought about a crystal cored design, i'm just at a lack as how to use the crystal oscillator part; any suggestions?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 14, 2009, 01:07:51 AM

000OOOOooo me likes crystals ... lol

but sheesh ... or eesh .. i just got the transistor down ... man a crystal your scareing me now ...

sounds tricky altho i did play with one some years ago for a bit ... till they jumped on me ... lol

how would i hook 1 up and what value i have collected a few but i had OTHER IEADS FOR THEM :D

but hey i got some

but im still haveing a cap problem thing ... eesh ... :D

but its so much fun isint it ... lol

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 14, 2009, 01:09:14 AM

@Stprue
I been there ;D

Quote from: stprue on July 09, 2009, 10:50:34 AM
my wife took over the computer and would not give it up ;D

I will try to get it tonight though....I have had no time to wind and it is frusturating for me but I'm glad things are happening.

Arrrrrh dosent it hurt lol, no rest for the mental anguish oooooohh.
Been there done that ,,,, the only answer is to get PC number 2 ;D
heee he

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 14, 2009, 04:34:45 AM

@ Jesus,
Thanks for the positive points TA. :)

Quote from: nievesoliveras on July 09, 2009, 10:18:32 PM
Congratulations @electricme!!!
If what you say is true then you are my hero!!!
I will replicate as soon as I gather the needed parts.

Jesus

Hurry and get the parts, lol.

BTW, this is not to deflect anyone away from the JT research, but I just want everyone to know of my success.
One very positave outcome has been the Transistor, its a 2N5886 in a TO3 case, same as the 2N3055, but looking at its specs, it can handle over twice the amps that a 2N3055 can, in fact almost 3 times as much.

Its rated as a 40amp device, and its a NPN transistor, it can handle 80volts, it should be no trouble as a substute in the JT circuit.

Gee I like that XX JT. :D

Just a hint, a key if you like, wind 3 coils, call them coil 1, coil 2 and coil 3 onto a toroid.
Feed stright DC into coil 1
Feed Hz into coil 2

See how much energy you can pick up on coil 3

@MK1,
I saw a circuit a couple of pages back with 2 transistors on it, (I think it was yours) coupled by a 10uF cap, here is a idea for you, bridge the cap with either a 1k or 5k pot the cap, (might need a higher rating one), then you should be able to adjust the frequency, it will be crude, but will work.

How square are the pulses? are they sharp or rounded?

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 14, 2009, 04:52:14 AM

Jim:

You always have these great ideas man. I really like what you have done with your Bedini. I am still trying to digest your pm but, once again, I will say that the EB, JT, Russian Tesla experiments, and Bedini are all related. I remember seeing this when I didn't know anything and now, I know just a little more but I believe this is the case.

I too am very behind on this topic and have to play catch-up. (no fun at all) The Kapandzie (sp?) topic is moving along and Jeanna's Tesla posts are coming into focus now. I do believe this is real and so do many others. It is not only possible, but doable from regular folks like us with limited funds.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 14, 2009, 05:00:13 AM

@Xee2
Now do you mean I should put several caps in series or parallel, what values should I put there?
Remember its putting out 40volt, so the caps have to be able to soak it up without spillage.
I can see a few hours scrounging through all my caps coming up he he.

Quote from: xee2 on July 09, 2009, 10:53:30 PM
@ electricme

It looks like this is running on the batteries. Will it run without any batteries?

Thanks Xee2
jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 14, 2009, 05:05:25 AM

@Bill,
Thats right, all this is all related in some shape or form together, and Jeanna and all the others without exception are doing great work here, even the "phantomes lol" those who read and make a JT etc, but don't post. :D

Well done all of us ;D

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 14, 2009, 05:22:26 AM

@Jadaro,
Now your talking, do I hear another KEY here?

Quote from: jadaro2600 on July 14, 2009, 12:47:30 AM
Has anyone tried a low frequency crystal oscillator on this circuit? ..and how would it's circuit diagram look?

I've thought about a crystal cored design, i'm just at a lack as how to use the crystal oscillator part; any suggestions?

I have a dual frequency generator I found in the dump some 6 months ago, I must put the lid on it and fire it up sometime, Jadaro you got me all fired up now ha ha.

jim

@IST,
If you get 3 crystals, equi distant apart, all the same nodes pointing together towards the middle, then hang a 4th crystal up, but pointing downwards into the centerpoint, what happens, I don't know, does anything happen?

Is there a focusing of energy?

I ask as I heard about some chap who fried himself setting up a 30foot piramid, he hung a woolen thread from the apex, at the top he had a copper wire, several strands splayed out.

He had a copper coil in the middle of the pyramid with the end poking in the earth, when he touched the thread, he got belted so hard he went 30 feet away, now thats energy in my book.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 14, 2009, 05:46:57 AM

Quote from: electricme on July 14, 2009, 05:00:13 AM
@Xee2
Now do you mean I should put several caps in series or parallel, what values should I put there?
Remember its putting out 40volt, so the caps have to be able to soak it up without spillage.
I can see a few hours scrounging through all my caps coming up he he.

Thanks Xee2
jim

Jim:

I have always thought that a very well tuned Bedini could run on caps alone....no batteries. Now, I have never done this but, with the advent of supercaps, I believe this to be totally possible. Supercaps, I think, will store those spikes and make them readily available faster and more efficient than batteries will so one could take a cap and precharge it and then run the motor and charge the second cap and then use a auto switching device to run forever.

I have a lot of ideas and not that much knowledge and even less funds.

Off-topic: I am now working on a motorized bicycle that will get over 150 miles per gallon and will go 35 mph. I ordered my motor tonight and got the bike a few days ago. I can use this in my legal document delivery service. (Process service)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 14, 2009, 08:14:02 AM

@jeanna,

Quote from: jeanna on July 11, 2009, 05:16:21 PM
Substance which might be gutta.
jeanna

What in the world is gutta, :-\ pardon me if I ask, is this a drain, I'm not trying to be funny, but this is a word which has a totally different meaning to me.

In Ausie, the word gutta means a rain gutta, the roof guttering is leaking, in new guinea we called it a barret, and roofing iron was called coppa. :D

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 14, 2009, 08:46:57 AM

Quote from: jeanna on July 13, 2009, 08:35:02 PM
which is the reason I am so curious and, bye the way, so surprised that xee2 was able to light a fluorotube with 2T,19T,80T turns and the biggo. It only made thin little spikes and very occasionally. nothing really, and yet gave results. very curious, that.
It sure would be nice to have company in that.

jeanna

Actually I'm not surprised that he could light a flouro with that my last unfinished one was 2T 10T 104T pushing over 700v andeasily light a flouro. But the MK design can be used in ways that design can't.

I will start reading tesla stuff any advice on where to start...I think you may have given this info to me already.

@all

How can we transform our high voltage output from our JT into lowerpower at higher amperage???

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 14, 2009, 09:31:52 AM

Quote from: xee2 on July 13, 2009, 08:35:52 PM
@ stprue

Looks good. 306 volts DC out of rectifier should mean slightly over 400 volts peak going into rectifier. That may just be enough to light a tube. If you have a neon, can you check if both electrodes light when it is put across pickup coil output leads?

EDIT: Well maybe not over 400 volts peak going into rectifier. What is capacitance value of your 400 volt capacitor and is it across the rectifier outputs?

I will try a neon but the one I have is an indicator type neon so I won't be able to see if both leads are lit. I tried a 7W flouro and it wont light up.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 14, 2009, 09:35:49 AM

Quote from: jeanna on July 13, 2009, 11:37:25 PM
Go ahead ist,
I like your pictures, and could you describe 4 x 4 better?
1 wire 4 turns? or 1 wire 4 coils of 4 turns?

Stprue,
I found this. You were once there at a tesla thread, but I just made a small screenshot of the 2 completely separate outputs which are part of the TRM patent.

Then I also noticed that after all that messing with the picture, I saw I had wound it wrong. Maybe that is why I had such a problem. I remembered it right but had it in mind to do it wrong! eesh!

It is a primary wound the way you wound the first half of your secondary.
I think I will wind a secondary as tesla suggests and have that on the inside. Then I can make adjustments to my primary as I need to.

here it is.

jeanna

Good good...I will try to wind the same only have an x2 c/b coil. We can then compare outputs ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 14, 2009, 09:36:29 AM

well i found 1 more 1" toroide ..

i was thinking why cant we dump the out of the jt back on the toroide? ;D

anyone ever do this .. push and pull ...

cuz if your getting 30 v on the off... then why not compound that in the core and use as a transformer

maybe in the tesla design .. may work well but then you want the pnp too RIGHT MARK?

lol

ist

it ziz a dubble eathzer pump lol and a transformer .. sh!t does it spinn too .. sounds like biggo time .. soon ;D :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 14, 2009, 09:39:54 AM

@ electricme

Quote from: electricme on July 14, 2009, 05:00:13 AM
@Xee2
Now do you mean I should put several caps in series or parallel, what values should I put there?
Remember its putting out 40volt, so the caps have to be able to soak it up without spillage.
I can see a few hours scrounging through all my caps coming up he he.

Thanks Xee2
jim

I am very suspicious of claims that circuits are putting out more power than they are using when there is a battery in the circuit. If the circuit is generating more power than it is using then it would run forever without the battery. Replace the battery with a charged capacitor (any value) and see if the voltage on the capacitor increases or decreases. If it increases without a battery in the circuit, then you have shown that you are getting more energy out than you put in.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 14, 2009, 09:40:07 AM

Quote from: electricme on July 14, 2009, 12:33:27 AM
@Stprue,

That's what I'm trying to do, ;) and the daydream bit toooo ;D

To me it looks like someone has done it already with that new EB tesla transformer... If it's legit anyways.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 14, 2009, 09:43:38 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on July 14, 2009, 12:47:30 AM
Has anyone tried a low frequency crystal oscillator on this circuit? ..and how would it's circuit diagram look?

I've thought about a crystal cored design, i'm just at a lack as how to use the crystal oscillator part; any suggestions?

Thats funny you mention this because I have been thinking about the same thing. There is some stuff out there if you google it. I think I have a small crystal oscillator but I'm honestly not sure. I know they usually conect directly to the transistor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 14, 2009, 09:55:16 AM

@ stprue

Quote from: stprue on July 14, 2009, 09:31:52 AM
I will try a neon but the one I have is an indicator type neon so I won't be able to see if both leads are lit. I tried a 7W flouro and it wont light up.

If you can not see the electrodes there is no need to do the test. I was just trying to see if you are getting single polarity output or not. My test give large voltage for current in one direction and only small voltage for current in opposite direction. I was trying to see if your coil did the same.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 14, 2009, 10:07:27 AM

@ stprue

Quote from: stprue on July 14, 2009, 08:46:57 AM
How can we transform our high voltage output from our JT into lowerpower at higher amperage???

Use less turns on pickup coil and you will get lower voltage at higher current.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on July 14, 2009, 10:44:20 AM

Quote from: xee2 on July 14, 2009, 10:07:27 AM
@ stprue

Use less turns on pickup coil and you will get lower voltage at higher current.

Yeah that's the direction i have been working in. I posted a pic like 40 pages back of something i was working on. I have 8 secondary's at 2.4 volts each producing around 100mAs each at the same time.

Something odd i have noticed is that if I do not balance the load across the pickup coils correctly then anyone of the pickup coils can pull more amps directly from the battery or so it would seem.

Not sure why that is. I still have not found a way to get more amp draw then the battery is rated for =/ but I have hit over 1000 volts from a 300 turn pickup coil.

Take Care All!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 14, 2009, 10:53:09 AM

Quote from: xee2 on July 14, 2009, 10:07:27 AM
@ stprue

Use less turns on pickup coil and you will get lower voltage at higher current.

@xee2 & Altrez

Thank you for the infor. Now I can experiment more. I have a question though....Will doing this drain the battery faster?

Also will using thicker guage wire also increase the amperage/current flow? Can you use a combination of different guages and add them together to get the best of both worlds?

Ex: 2 pickups
...Pickup 1 300 turns of 30 guage
...Pickup 2 20 of 16 guage

The conbine bridges!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on July 14, 2009, 11:15:44 AM

Quote from: stprue on July 14, 2009, 10:53:09 AM
@xee2 & Altrez

Thank you for the infor. Now I can experiment more. I have a question though....Will doing this drain the battery faster?

Also will using thicker guage wire also increase the amperage/current flow? Can you use a combination of different guages and add them together to get the best of both worlds?

Ex: 2 pickups
...Pickup 1 300 turns of 30 guage
...Pickup 2 20 of 16 guage

The conbine bridges!

You are welcome. Thank you for taking the time to post all of your results. They have been most helpful.

Yes if you run 8 pickup coils at a draw of 800 mAs it will drain the battery very quickly. I have not noticed any difference as of yet with a thicker gage wire.

I have not tried adding them together. That sounds like a good test.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 14, 2009, 11:45:58 AM

i think i have decided to to my big go as i need a NICE DEMO UNIT ....

so i will do much similar to my 5555 coil but a big one and i will add jims mod to it ...

i will wind 7 primary wires ... 1 will be constant powered ... (fundamental) ..

then the 123 phase rmf design in 2 dirrections ..and i think ill only do 1 turn per ...

but i will use heavy gage wire so i can go higher voltage and amprage on the input .. and on the ou put

i will use 3055 and 5871 cuz this is what i have ..

but this is how it will work

i will sneek some juice to charge a cap .. then feed the cap into the 7th primary wire ..and i should maybe use a bulb of sorts in that circuit to slow it down but im not sure yet ill have to build it ...

and it seams to me i get better results with 5 seprate electromagnets in 1 wire than 4

so i dont know for sure ..

wound another small one in 2 dirrections for 2 way pulseing ...

i will wind my next unit all same dirrection rotated by 3rd's

but i need to find somemore toroides from my big boxes of coils ;D

ist here is a pic

so if i took a small ac joule theif and connected the ac out of it to the coil pnp and npn the second coil would pulaste at the rate of the first .. right but in 2 jt's on the mixer ring .. then i could split that for 6 ou puts ...

so like a nano mk2 could power and pulse this coil .. 12 12 12 12 no ..

plus my output should dubble on my pick up and feed back coils .. right ...

fishing trip comeing ... :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 14, 2009, 12:01:46 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on July 14, 2009, 12:47:30 AM
Has anyone tried a low frequency crystal oscillator on this circuit? ..and how would it's circuit diagram look?

I've thought about a crystal cored design, i'm just at a lack as how to use the crystal oscillator part; any suggestions?

I believe they are expensive.
The affordable ones are in the MHz ranges because they are exreas from radio supplies.
They are basically rlc's however.
Take a look at this page (remember to return someday soon, however. ;) )
http://www.coilgun.info/mark2/rlcsim.htm (http://www.coilgun.info/mark2/rlcsim.htm)
I keep this page bookmarked.
It is a java script of a rlc circuit with sliders so you can make some adjustments and get the components or whatever right. - It is very engaging as well as informative.
Down the page is a circuit diagram. The whole site is about RLC as this is Barry's interest.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 14, 2009, 12:15:56 PM

Quote from: electricme on July 14, 2009, 08:14:02 AM
@jeanna,

What in the world is gutta, ...
...:D
jim

Hi Jim,
I'm glad they let you out again!

gutta is natural rubber.
It is white and springy.
RS has this wire they call wrapping wire which is 30 gauge and looks like Al. It is very easy to break.
Its covering which they call kynar is white and springy and and harder to cut than the wire so it is tricky, but it is really good wrapping wire. (It is why I think maybe kynar is gutta)
I think this is what xee2 likes to use, too.

@ist,
I will add your 4 x 4 to my list. It will be easy to do along with the improved TRM primary I will be building today.

(hmm, I gotta get to the HHO because it is summer and i can try things outside.)

@Stprue,
take a look at the last one or 2 posts I made next door.
I found that the addition of another inductor within each circuit off each leg would up the voltage.
So, you should be able to increase each of those outputs to whatever you want with the addition of the right inductor. As long as it is still pulsing, it should continue to work.

Finding the right inductor might be interesting. (And the reason I haven't posted there in a while.)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 14, 2009, 12:44:10 PM

ok that little 4x4 coil just blew my mind ... lol

i just recharged a solar nicad in like 2 min or les .. useing no diodes an led on the coil ...

i may have to built it right up as a simple nicad charger high speed...

now it does drain out .. slowly but i bet it works as a translateing device

;D

got the little 4x4 singing .. doing this spikes are not as big but darn it recharges fast ...

ist!

i found another 1 " so i will make the 2 x 4 x 2 x 4 split like the tesla pattend

ill wind 2 turn jump 2 turn jump 4 times then i will go in between those windings in an oppisite dirrection with the same winding and same wire lengths ... then in between all the coils ill mk2 winding it .. because to me this is where that winding gets used properly .. to grab from both ways but 8 of them on a 1 " pulsed 1 2 1 2

it is easyer for me to wind it than to draw it .. it will take much less time to build then draw.....

so i build and take a picture ..

i did only 1 turn jump ..

but here is the coil

ill add the mk2 wires next all 8 of them ill just put what fits .. all i can do on one layer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PARAV on July 14, 2009, 01:54:33 PM

Crystal Oscillator Circuits

Hi Guys and gals

Check this out for various Crystal Oscillator Circuits.
http://www.discovercircuits.com/O/o-crystal.htm

PR

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 14, 2009, 02:19:20 PM

Quote from: PARAV on July 14, 2009, 01:54:33 PM
Crystal Oscillator Circuits

Hi Guys and gals

Check this out for various Crystal Oscillator Circuits.
http://www.discovercircuits.com/O/o-crystal.htm

PR

Welcome the the JT topic and thank you for the info's. What is your interest in this forum so far. Have any of the topics caught your eye?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 14, 2009, 03:30:29 PM

@ stprue

Quote from: stprue on July 14, 2009, 10:53:09 AM
Will doing this drain the battery faster?

Not necessarily. Power out in watts = amps x volts. You can have more amps or more volts and still have the same power. But, how much power goes into the pickup coil depends on load and number of turns. So changing turns may change power going into pickup coil.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PARAV on July 14, 2009, 03:34:33 PM

Hi stprue

Thank you for the warm welcome. I've been following this thread since it's inception and am basically a silent replicator of various Jt's and Dr. Stiffler's SEC. My results have been echoing some of the replicators like xee2's designs.
However,sadly my job and family responsibility cut into the prescious time it requires to do more experimenting with these circuits and wish I can contribute more and so I really appreciate all of you regular contributers of this thread with your expertise. Believe me , when I get home from work , I can hardly wait to get to the work bench. You guys and Gals are great. Keep up the good work. I'll be following along with you. Thanks Again.

PR

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 14, 2009, 05:04:40 PM

yes welcome to the topic ... and our world of insanity meets reality ... :D

lol

i hope if you do find some time you could post some pictures of your effords for every one 2 see as pictures are so nice to see ...

btw dont mind my spelling ... lol ;D

any how i got the npn pnp 4x1 x 4x1 and 8 8turn mk2 picup coils all wound on a 1 " toroide ..

it turned out darn nice ... i thought anyways ..

have not ran it yet but i do know the result of a 6 way split in 1 dirrection ... so i would expect the same in the other but who knows ... :)

here is a pic of the finished coil

ist!

incase it wasnt all that clear in my last rambblingggs lol

this is a 2 phase 2 dirrection jt with 8 bidirrectional picups wound inbetween the electromagnets (jt coils)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 14, 2009, 07:05:11 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 14, 2009, 03:30:29 PM
@ stprue

Not necessarily. Power out in watts = amps x volts. You can have more amps or more volts and still have the same power. But, how much power goes into the pickup coil depends on load and number of turns. So changing turns may change power going into pickup coil.

Thanks for the infos...my goal is to change the power output in the JT so I can use it on more then just lights. Also I think this could help find the way to better efficienty.

Thanks again...Stew

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 14, 2009, 07:06:45 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on July 14, 2009, 05:04:40 PM
yes welcome to the topic ... and our world of insanity meets reality ... :D

lol

i hope if you do find some time you could post some pictures of your effords for every one 2 see as pictures are so nice to see ...

btw dont mind my spelling ... lol ;D

any how i got the npn pnp 4x1 x 4x1 and 8 8turn mk2 picup coils all wound on a 1 " toroide ..

it turned out darn nice ... i thought anyways ..

have not ran it yet but i do know the result of a 6 way split in 1 dirrection ... so i would expect the same in the other but who knows ... :)

here is a pic of the finished coil

ist!

incase it wasnt all that clear in my last rambblingggs lol

this is a 2 phase 2 dirrection jt with 8 bidirrectional picups wound inbetween the electromagnets (jt coils)

IST

You build and produce results faster then anyone. Do you have a job? heheh

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 14, 2009, 07:14:29 PM

Quote from: PARAV on July 14, 2009, 03:34:33 PM
Hi stprue

Thank you for the warm welcome. I've been following this thread since it's inception and am basically a silent replicator of various Jt's and Dr. Stiffler's SEC. My results have been echoing some of the replicators like xee2's designs.
However,sadly my job and family responsibility cut into the prescious time it requires to do more experimenting with these circuits and wish I can contribute more and so I really appreciate all of you regular contributers of this thread with your expertise. Believe me , when I get home from work , I can hardly wait to get to the work bench. You guys and Gals are great. Keep up the good work. I'll be following along with you. Thanks Again.

PR

Don't worry about it. I was one of those guys too, but I must tell you, being involved in the forum and asking these fine people questions is the best way for you to not only learn but accelerate your progress.

P.S. Like IST said post some pictures of your stuff who knows maybe you will help us all in our goals!!! ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 14, 2009, 07:26:01 PM

Welcome PARAV,
We have made a lot of progress here because we have shared our results, even when they seemed the same as someone else's. It helps us all when people share the results, so welcome.

@Stew,
I see you stopped in next door.
Thanks.

@All,
Bolt just posted a link to his upload of 3 movies onto metacafe.
One is a a lecture from Peter Lindemann about Tesla and what he found that has not been brought forward. It is an excellent lecture. I hope you can get a chance to see it.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/2858787/tesla_free_energy_conference/ (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/2858787/tesla_free_energy_conference/)

I no longer feel so all alone :D !

P L explains many things I have tried to explain about Tesla's circuits... and more. I got it from reading tesla's lectures, but many are having trouble reading them or seeing what I was seeing.
It is so very wonderful to hear the real thing without the nonsense coming in to interrupt.

So Stew, how is the second side coming along?

@Ist, is it adding or subtracting? I am so curious.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 14, 2009, 07:37:22 PM

so far im only running 1 side and 1 output i am rechargeing 2 aaa nicads with ease

i just useing a blue led off the output and a cap to 1 battery and dirrectly off the led with the other ..

i have managed to recharge the nicads to 1.353 v

when there right dead or really low they climb up in charge extreamlly fast .. i hope to tap it both ways with 2 leds from each ou coil and recharge from both at dubble time ..

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 14, 2009, 07:44:09 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 14, 2009, 07:26:01 PM
Welcome PARAV,
We have made a lot of progress here because we have shared our results, even when they seemed the same as someone else's. It helps us all when people share the results, so welcome.

@Stew,
I see you stopped in next door.
Thanks.

@All,
Bolt just posted a link to his upload of 3 movies onto metacafe.
One is a a lecture from Peter Lindemann about Tesla and what he found that has not been brought forward. It is an excellent lecture. I hope you can get a chance to see it.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/2858787/tesla_free_energy_conference/ (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/2858787/tesla_free_energy_conference/)

I no longer feel so all alone :D !

P L explains many things I have tried to explain about Tesla's circuits... and more. I got it from reading tesla's lectures, but many are having trouble reading them or seeing what I was seeing.
It is so very wonderful to hear the real thing without the nonsense coming in to interrupt.

So Stew, how is the second side coming along?

@Ist, is it adding or subtracting? I am so curious.

jeanna

Nothing today I'm sad to report! I just finished making dinner and it's almost 8pm where I am. Maybe tomorrow, but it will be a small coil (with 2 pickups) not the biggo...not yet. The second side is done (only 1 not 2 pickups) but I need to remake the primary or c/b coils in the x2 fashion. It wont work... well maybe if you make it backwards...the normal hazen way.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 14, 2009, 07:45:26 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on July 14, 2009, 07:37:22 PM
so far im only running 1 side and 1 output i am rechargeing 2 aaa nicads with ease

i just useing a blue led off the output and a cap to 1 battery and dirrectly off the led with the other ..

i have managed to recharge the nicads to 1.353 v

when there right dead or really low they climb up in charge extreamlly fast .. i hope to tap it both ways with 2 leds from each ou coil and recharge from both at dubble time ..

ist!

If those are charging fast you should try supercaps!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 14, 2009, 08:10:30 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on July 14, 2009, 07:37:22 PM
so far im only running 1 side and 1 output i am rechargeing 2 aaa nicads with ease

i just useing a blue led off the output and a cap to 1 battery and dirrectly off the led with the other ..

i have managed to recharge the nicads to 1.353 v

when there right dead or really low they climb up in charge extreamlly fast .. i hope to tap it both ways with 2 leds from each ou coil and recharge from both at dubble time ..

ist!

So, there is no fancy circuit, just a

l-e-diode on one secondary and a regular diode on the other. Where is the - and + of the cap?

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 14, 2009, 09:13:44 PM

@all

Lindemann - The Free Energy Secrets of Cold Electricity

http://www.scribd.com/doc/13716840/Lindemann-The-Free-Energy-Secrets-of-Cold-Electricity-eBook-ITA-v30

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on July 14, 2009, 09:30:29 PM

Mk1 said:

Quote
@all
Lindemann - The Free Energy Secrets of Cold Electricity
http://www.scribd.com/doc/13716840/Lindemann-The-Free-Energy-Secrets-of-Cold-Electricity-eBook-ITA-v30

@all,
Page 58 of the manuscript above has an improved schematic of the patent drawing. A more feasible design, as I see it. At least one critic of Gray indicated he thought the original patent was unworkable as presented.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 14, 2009, 09:44:47 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 14, 2009, 08:10:30 PM
So, there is no fancy circuit, just a

l-e-diode on one secondary and a regular diode on the other. Where is the - and + of the cap?

thanks,

jeanna

jeanna no fancy circuit just 1 blue led .. a 2222 transistor the last coil showen no diodes im chargeing both batteries from 1 out coil as well im scopeing another coil and the charge coil

i had a cap there but i found it to cap off the charge voltage on the 1 battery .. so i took it out

i like simple things ...

;D

ist!

im gonna mount it on a board and see if i can find 8 nicads aaa to recharge with it

not sure how many i have but 16 would be cool

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 14, 2009, 09:50:48 PM

@ All:

At Electricme's suggestion (Jim) I have started a topic whereby folks from around the world can make a simple earth battery and put a scope to it and log their results there.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7769.msg191333;topicseen#new (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7769.msg191333;topicseen#new)

Jim has shown that there are very strange waveforms and that they change throughout the day, week and even month. So, it was his idea to try to compile a lot of data from all over the world to compare the shots to. Things like thunderstorms and earthquakes will have an effect on these waves and it will be very interesting to see what those are from around the planet.

Check it out and all you need is a very simple earth battery and a scope. If anyone has any questions about this they can pm me or Electricme. Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: weri812 on July 14, 2009, 10:26:15 PM

hello all

here is a copy in english with more pages

http://dc87.4shared.com/download/118160052/ebbe49c6/_Ebook__The_Free_Energy_Secrets_Of_Cold_Electricity_-.pdf

God Bless All
wer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 14, 2009, 10:51:23 PM

@All,

I'm just going to wait a while until I post this on the JT thread, and let Bill have first chance of making his announcement.

I have just got off the phone to Bill (Pirate88179).
Would you like to know what we spoke about? :D OK it generally was how everyone is going (all positave) and how we all get on OK together, sometimes theres a few hickups, but they are resolved.
We come up with old and new ideas, then bounce them off each other and see what we think about them, and what we might do about this or that.

BUT the "major" topic we spoke on today, was earth energy, and how to measure it, what instruments to use, wiring them up, how to record results, use a camera, video, mobile phone or software and what medium to display our results etc etc.

It seems very very little has been done in this area and there is much to discover.
We will need people who are willing to be involved, post their findings, if you can make a Dataloging Program, or if there is a freebie available that you know of, please forward its http address.

I suggested a ordinary sound card be pressed into service, (as every PC these days have them)
I have a enough spare parts here to make up a PC that could just sit in a corner, keeping itself happy filling itself with EE data.

We are setting up this new forum, to try and understand how energy moves through the earth, the frequency of it, see if there are highs-lows and if it appears in just one place or everywhere at the same time.

In the past I have posted photos of my own EB waveforms, which can take up a lot of screen space and up to half a post page, I wouldn't mind posting all the different Pict's I have done and will do, but this would literally drown the JT topic, and this would not do at all, and there would be unhappy people.

After a while Bill suggested he would open up another separate topic to do this research.

This is not to take away from the separate Joule Thief or Stubblefield or Other research topics, rather it will compliment them all, because EE (Earth Energy) is what the majority of the topics on OU are about.

It is better to have this in it's own heading, rather than complicate other research headings.

I said to Bill I will make a quick circuit showing everyone how to connect their own oscilloscope to a EB, and, as (Jeanna who coined the phrase) people who want to jump into the sand pit and play can do so.

So how does everyone feel about this? :)

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 14, 2009, 11:15:37 PM

well i finished the 2 phase bla bla ...

npn pnp

the thing lights leds both ways .. nice and bright and as i sweep the pot 1 led goes bright the other goes out and visa versa ...

i have not tryed to recharge from them i took some more pics of the scope and the unit

first pic im showing npn only pulseing ..

second npn and pnp

the spikes filled in in the middle

so i will now mount it on a board.. with 16 leds i guess..

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 14, 2009, 11:44:59 PM

Good idea jim,
...linux open source maybe someone can add an open source program for the sound cards and the o'scope in linux??

Jim,
I think you ought to be the first.
I just went out and there is a lot of activity right now. Do you also have a lot now?
I will post after you.

OK ist. looks great. crazy waves. you gotta have everything there. That is really big.

I wish you could do it with just the winding and one npn.
I see you did...

Quoteno diodes im chargeing both batteries from 1 out coil as well im scopeing another coil and the charge coil

i had a cap there but i found it to cap off the charge voltage on the 1 battery .. so i took it out

i like simple things ...

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: weri812 on July 15, 2009, 12:13:49 AM

to all
found this on inter net

injoy
http://www.4shared.com/file/92366887/ad3b1eb6/Free_Energy_-_Free_electricity_From_The_Earth.html

God Bless All
wer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 15, 2009, 12:46:58 AM

@all

Have fun !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIPYTmvNohc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_0iO2uk-0U&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xn50tErhhs

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 15, 2009, 12:56:12 AM

@all

I got a idea , lets build some experimental jt , proposition ,

first find a plastic container to acts as a core , at this point air core jt could be done ,

But other materiel could be tested like

Bismuth (A pigment in artists' oil and acrylic paint (Bismuth Vanadate))

Ferrofluid ( maybe rust in water or light oil )

Rochelle salt , they will generate more energy from the magnetic pulse .

Quarts , other mineral , etc ...

The list could go on and on , you get the picture ...

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 15, 2009, 02:45:52 AM

@all

I just found this , a spark gap ... just in time for a tesla jt , with resonance tank , for full use of the pickup coil ....

Some work starting at 140 v.

http://www.tradekey.com/product_view/id/339796.htm

http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://img.alibaba.com/photo/237585219_1/switching_spark_gap.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/237585219/switching_spark_gap.html&usg=__8h399PmSVYbYL82yBj8Hf8VKAOU=&h=502&w=800&sz=48&hl=en&start=16&um=1&tbnid=wWRvI4nqZw9BoM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=143&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmaking%2Ba%2Bspark%2Bgap%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 15, 2009, 03:05:29 AM

@ Mark:

Great find! I have never seen anything like that before. This will open new doors here.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on July 15, 2009, 04:38:47 AM

Quote from: electricme on July 14, 2009, 05:22:26 AM
@Jadaro,
Now your talking, do I hear another KEY here?

I have a dual frequency generator I found in the dump some 6 months ago, I must put the lid on it and fire it up sometime, Jadaro you got me all fired up now ha ha.

jim

@IST,
If you get 3 crystals, equi distant apart, all the same nodes pointing together towards the middle, then hang a 4th crystal up, but pointing downwards into the centerpoint, what happens, I don't know, does anything happen?

Is there a focusing of energy?

I ask as I heard about some chap who fried himself setting up a 30foot piramid, he hung a woolen thread from the apex, at the top he had a copper wire, several strands splayed out.

He had a copper coil in the middle of the pyramid with the end poking in the earth, when he touched the thread, he got belted so hard he went 30 feet away, now thats energy in my book.

jim

I was thinking that the circuit would reach it's own comfortable resonance; the nature of the crystal oscillator seems to be mechanical. As a result, it would think it's going to make some noise.

Also, the EB gives me the idea to use an antenna to harness the initial chaotic waveform needed to start the oscillations in the crystal.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on July 15, 2009, 07:46:01 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on July 15, 2009, 02:45:52 AM
@all

I just found this , a spark gap ... just in time for a tesla jt , with resonance tank , for full use of the pickup coil ....

Some work starting at 140 v.

http://www.tradekey.com/product_view/id/339796.htm

http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://img.alibaba.com/photo/237585219_1/switching_spark_gap.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/237585219/switching_spark_gap.html&usg=__8h399PmSVYbYL82yBj8Hf8VKAOU=&h=502&w=800&sz=48&hl=en&start=16&um=1&tbnid=wWRvI4nqZw9BoM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=143&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmaking%2Ba%2Bspark%2Bgap%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1

Mark

Mark,

Can you please explain the benefit of using a spark gap with the JT? I am a bit confused on how it would be implemented and how it would help?

Thank you!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 15, 2009, 08:06:13 AM

@All
I have one of these which is on Page 43 here http://www.scribd.com/doc/13716840/Lindemann-The-Free-Energy-Secrets-of-Cold-Electricity-eBook-ITA-v30

@jeanna
Thankyou for your support for the latest EB page Bill has setup, TA

Now have you been looking for this by any chance ;D I have had this in my back shed for years, just mabe there might be another one there also ;)

@IST,
I got something for you toooo, its a cone,,,,,,, a reducing cone, you put a HV pulse through it and it lights with a very bright flash,,,,, now, if one was to harnass free aeather directly at its source, and if one was to drive a spark through it to get the radant energy, but first one would have to wind a wire around it first, it is fragile, very fragile ha ha ha.

Tell me if it is NOT possible.
Arrrr I will have to post the pics after I restart my PC because I have to setup my system again.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 15, 2009, 08:29:53 AM

@IST,
Just for you my friend

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 15, 2009, 08:38:32 AM

@MK1

Quote from: Mk1 on July 15, 2009, 02:45:52 AM
@all

I just found this , a spark gap ... just in time for a tesla jt , with resonance tank , for full use of the pickup coil ....

Some work starting at 140 v.
Mark

Very good find Mark, excellent.
jim

Actually I'm thinking about using a evacuated glass tube (dont know how long it should be) which has a electrode at either end, which is in turn wrapped in a coil of wire, then fire a spark through the tube, the spark travelling through the tube opens the aeather channel and the radent energy gets dumped into the coil around the glass tube.

Well I could be wrong, who knows, I would try this with the above glass cone I posted above but the glass coils are far too close to wind any wire on them, it looks so fragile, just breathe on it and it might break lol.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 15, 2009, 10:23:49 AM

@ stprue

Quote from: stprue on July 13, 2009, 06:15:10 PM
new goal.....

get over 1000v on a goldmine!

I predict that you can not get 1000 volts with a 1" diameter toroid. According to my results the following equation seems to provide the relationship between turns and voltage. It says you will need 854 turns to get 1000 volts. I do not think there is room on a 1 inch diameter toroid to put 854 turns. Of course the equation could be wrong, it is just a hypothesis.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 15, 2009, 10:32:18 AM

@ electricme

Quote from: electricme on July 15, 2009, 08:38:32 AM
Actually I'm thinking about using a evacuated glass tube (dont know how long it should be) which has a electrode at either end, which is in turn wrapped in a coil of wire, then fire a spark through the tube, the spark travelling through the tube opens the aeather channel and the radent energy gets dumped into the coil around the glass tube.

Very interesting test. I hope you do this and post results.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 15, 2009, 10:56:54 AM

@ jim

that thing is intresting ... is it a form of arc lighting ?

@ xee2

im trying to get up there in voltage .. last night i built a new coil ..

just 3 wires... so far im getting around 250v on the scope ..

my pickup coil is 120 turns..

just a real simple coil .. 12 turn jt less than a 1" 7/8 or 3/4 "

so if this is the case i should be able to get 1000v im hopeing

with this style unit .. ill add a pic of this coil as there all diffrent..

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 15, 2009, 11:13:35 AM

Quote from: xee2 on July 15, 2009, 10:23:49 AM
@ stprue

I predict that you can not get 1000 volts with a 1" diameter toroid. According to my results the following equation seems to provide the relationship between turns and voltage. It says you will need 854 turns to get 1000 volts. I do not think there is room on a 1 inch diameter toroid to put 854 turns. Of course the equation could be wrong, it is just a hypothesis.

Don't forget about permeability and flux. This changes results. It may not be possible on a 1 inch goldmine but I will try anyways.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on July 15, 2009, 11:22:41 AM

@xee2

I have got over 1000V on my 2.9inch toroid with 300 turns. using a 2n3055 and a pot. 18/18 on the primary. So looking at my results. I aggree with you its going to be very hard to do it on a 1" GM .

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 15, 2009, 11:26:56 AM

Quote from: xee2 on July 15, 2009, 10:23:49 AM
According to my results the following equation seems to provide the relationship between turns and voltage.
...

Xee2,
That is an interesting hypothesis.
I will check my results against it whenever I make a new wind that resembles another.

I have a hunch that both the way it is wound, and the resonant frequency of the particular toroid might change this a bit, but we will see. I like this.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 15, 2009, 11:31:39 AM

honestly guys do you not think i could dubble up my collector on my last coil ?

meaning do a bifillar wind .. the exact same as i have just done id then be up to 500v in 4 wires..

thease are my expairments today and its like a 3/4 " maybe 7/8

useing a 2n2222 tranny ..

i think i need to adjust my primary winding .. for better results .. but im not sure

plus how would i connect the windings to add up ... ?

this im not sure eather ..

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: rensseak on July 15, 2009, 11:35:24 AM

Quote from: jeanna on July 14, 2009, 11:44:59 PM
Good idea jim,
...linux open source maybe someone can add an open source program for the sound cards and the o'scope in linux??

digital oscilloscope
Xoscope is a oscilloscope using input from a
sound card or EsounD and/or a ProbeScope/osziFOX and will soon support
Bitscope hardware. Includes 8 signal displays, variable time scale,
math, memory, measurements, and file save/load.

Web site: http://xoscope.sourceforge.net/

This package is already in Ubuntu includet.

Just type "sudo apt-get install xoscope" in a shell

Norbert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 15, 2009, 12:07:20 PM

Quote from: rensseak on July 15, 2009, 11:35:24 AM
digital oscilloscope
Xoscope is a oscilloscope using input from a
sound card
...

Web site: http://xoscope.sourceforge.net/

This package is already in Ubuntu includet.

Just type "sudo apt-get install xoscope" in a shell

Norbert

BEAU TI FUL.
Thank you Norbert!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 15, 2009, 12:22:53 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on July 15, 2009, 11:26:56 AM
I have a hunch that both the way it is wound, and the resonant frequency of the particular toroid might change this a bit, but we will see. I like this.

The equation assumes that the only thing changing is the number of turns on the pickup coil. The toroid, battery voltage, turns on other coils, etc. must all remain the same.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 15, 2009, 12:35:24 PM

@ altrez

Quote from: altrez on July 15, 2009, 11:22:41 AM
@xee2

I have got over 1000V on my 2.9inch toroid with 300 turns. using a 2n3055 and a pot. 18/18 on the primary. So looking at my results. I aggree with you its going to be very hard to do it on a 1" GM .

-Altrez

That seems to check. I was getting 600 volts on my 2B-10C-80P 3.38" toroid. So the prediction would be 1200 volts with 320 turns.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 15, 2009, 12:43:43 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 15, 2009, 12:22:53 PM
@ jeanna

The equation assumes that the only thing changing is the number of turns on the pickup coil. The toroid, battery voltage, turns on other coils, etc. must all remain the same.

I am glad you made that clear.
It isn't what I meant, though. Sorry.

I meant, the mk1 with its up down/back and forth might need a different ratio under that sq root sign from the straight one.
I will be checking for that because I make that kind too.

This is going to be a good tool, thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 15, 2009, 01:05:58 PM

finished my next coil ...

same as the last one but i made it with 13 turn jt ..

and 13 10 turn collector / picup/ accelerator i went around the ring 2 times 10 turn jump 10 turn jump 13 times then went around the same agin ... so a total of 260 turns 30 ga magnet wire

the result is ... a VHF coil my volts are lower than 1 lap .. but the freqency is like 10 or more .. times than the 1 lapper

and when i slowed my scope my pulse length is the longest i have seen it ..

output is about 75 v on the scope wont lite a neon but it sure is lould

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on July 15, 2009, 01:06:25 PM

Quote from: electricme on July 15, 2009, 08:38:32 AM
@MK1
Very good find Mark, excellent.
jim

Actually I'm thinking about using a evacuated glass tube (dont know how long it should be) which has a electrode at either end, which is in turn wrapped in a coil of wire, then fire a spark through the tube, the spark travelling through the tube opens the aeather channel and the radent energy gets dumped into the coil around the glass tube.

Well I could be wrong, who knows, I would try this with the above glass cone I posted above but the glass coils are far too close to wind any wire on them, it looks so fragile, just breathe on it and it might break lol.

jim

Have / has you / anyone considered using a blown automotive bulb as a spark gap? The glass tube with the crimped ends are easy to come by ..the only thing that governs it's performance is the nature of how it blew in the first place, it can create unpredictable behavior, but still creates a spark gap. Most commonly they're used in turn signals or brakes.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 15, 2009, 01:26:57 PM

@all

What do you think of this? I know MACEDONIA has been around for a while but I don't know much about him? He has sent several personal messages on his TPU experiments. Is he legit? If he is he should come join us here as well!

(No subject)
Â« Sent to: MACEDONIA CD, stprue on: Today at 05:42:18 PM Â» Reply to All Quote Reply Save PM Remove

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2FNbPKwRv0

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 15, 2009, 01:58:35 PM

People quietly step forward and support him, even on the worst of the tpu threads I have read.

I think he is very interested in the tpu as he is always aroused to some kind of unintelligible words when a tpu thread says 'bad' things about SM.
I think macedonian to english might be a really hard translation. Someone pointed out if you read his posts out loud and phoenetically, you can follow them better.

I tend to lose patience, but then, I do not know enough electronics to hang out on a tpu thread so I generally leave soon after I arrive. I think we are on to tesla more than SM. They interrelate for sure, but I think tesla will get us there first. (I could be wrong of course... happens a lot.)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 15, 2009, 02:02:16 PM

Quote from: stprue on July 15, 2009, 01:26:57 PM
@all

What do you think of this? I know MACEDONIA has been around for a while but I don't know much about him? He has sent several personal messages on his TPU experiments. Is he legit? If he is he should come join us here as well!

(No subject)
Â« Sent to: MACEDONIA CD, stprue on: Today at 05:42:18 PM Â» Reply to All Quote Reply Save PM Remove

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2FNbPKwRv0

hahahaha

i know mac

any how i mounted my other coil the one that gave me good results ... well good just got better ...

i have 410 v spikes on my scope after i got it all soldered ;D

120 turns .. well

a darn simple coil too how can i improve the spikes more turns? i did 10 on that one .. i guess ill build another of them with 20 turns

and find out ..

ist

scope is 100v / div

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 15, 2009, 03:26:21 PM

@ All:

I could be wrong about this so feel free to correct me but, didn't Gadget get 1,300 volts from his 1" goldmine toroid JT? I would go back and try to hunt up those posts but.....could take a week. The only thing I don't recall was the input power...may have been a 1.5 bat. or possibly 2v.

Again, my memory is not what it once was so I'll wait to see what others remember. I just remember it being like 3 times what I was getting from my Fuji and his was a toroid JT.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 15, 2009, 03:42:03 PM

Quote from: altrez on July 15, 2009, 07:46:01 AM
Mark,

Can you please explain the benefit of using a spark gap with the JT? I am a bit confused on how it would be implemented and how it would help?

Thank you!

-Altrez

@ Altrez

Did you have a chance to look at the movie jeanna posted
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/2858787/tesla_free_energy_conference/

its a introduction to Tesla , but basically he first made closed circuit , then discovered that the static charge created by the pickup coil , could be use for open single wire use , Now its not magic or hard to understand , But the basic of it is you charge a cap then when the proper voltage is reach then it jump the gap then go back in the same cap , so you can have the cap charged and discharged on every pulse .It takes longer to charge the cap the first time .

Tesla schematic are really basic if you know the symbols.

there is also the fact that he tuned the power sup for the load , and tune the power coil to 1/4 of the wave length . i am still digesting that one ..

I am sure Jeanna will post a picture of such circuit.

Mark

I made a mk.5 one wire secondary 140 turns 70 on each side , i get over 1000 v but i will need to find other diodes ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 15, 2009, 03:45:29 PM

Sorry double post ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 15, 2009, 04:07:59 PM

Exactly what I have been up to, Mark.

I am hoping that instead of the spark we can use the pulses from the jt. I still think this, but I will be getting into the sparks too. I guess I have held off long enough.
I must just remember not to touch my computer just after I have been playing with such high voltage. I am not sure it doesn't frazzle computers to have these things in the same room.

Wouldn't it be fun to have that tesla set-up in the car driving the motor, then when you get home, you can just plug the house into your car!
;D ;D

Here is a diagram of a jtc with one secondary which has a capacitor/condenser which could be a spark and also 2 more places for possible spark.
Tesla usually did not use all 3 at once, unless the generator was really low voltage.

The load could cross from one wire to the other, or if the frequency and voltage were high enough, you would only need one wire and the ground.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 15, 2009, 04:20:49 PM

@ jeanna

I know now ... Since you mostly described as Tesla discovery that was a bit confusing since discovered pretty much everything ...

But i really believe the spark gap is needed . And also we need to figure the 1/4 wave link thing , but its all there , quite easy to replicate once you got the parts.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 15, 2009, 04:38:55 PM

@ Mk1

Quote from: Mk1 on July 15, 2009, 03:42:03 PM
I made a mk.5 one wire secondary 140 turns 70 on each side , i get over 1000 v but i will need to find other diodes ...

Wow! That is great. 1000 volts with only 140 turns. Can you please supply more details about what you did?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 15, 2009, 04:52:44 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 15, 2009, 04:38:55 PM
@ Mk1

Wow! That is great. 1000 volts with only 140 turns. Can you please supply more details about what you did?

Well , not really since i already had 2 x 850 v on 2x70 turns , the coil only go one way on each side so its easier to get really high voltage in phase , but i don't believe this to be a improvement , its more on the bragging side side of things ...

But i made a drawing ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 15, 2009, 05:00:32 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 15, 2009, 04:38:55 PM
@ Mk1

Wow! That is great. 1000 volts with only 140 turns. Can you please supply more details about what you did?

Nice...I want pictures.....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 15, 2009, 05:04:54 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on July 15, 2009, 04:52:44 PM
Well , not really since i already had 2 x 850 v on 2x70 turns , the coil only go one way on each side so its easier to get really high voltage in phase , but i don't believe this to be a improvement , its more on the bragging side side of things ...

But i made a drawing ...

Dam it...this is the coils I just made for the most part....I got 306 or 7 out if it and my b/c were less but I didn'know you made this design already!!! seems like I'm making your old stuff...

P.S. thats makes me feel smart ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 15, 2009, 05:08:11 PM

@stprue

I will , as soon as possible , i got the get a fried with a camera to come over , my usual
got married , so humm , anyway . i will , but a got so many more interesting things to show you guys ...

Mark

There are so many toroid i have made , crazy things . its all part of the learning experience ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 15, 2009, 05:09:56 PM

Quote from: stprue on July 15, 2009, 05:04:54 PM
Dam it...this is the coils I just made for the most part....I got 306 or 7 out if it and my b/c were less but I didn'know you made this design already!!! seems like I'm making your old stuff...

P.S. thats makes me feel smart ;D

My toroid is not form gold mine ...

So its hard to comment .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 15, 2009, 05:17:50 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on July 15, 2009, 05:09:56 PM
My toroid is not form gold mine ...

So its hard to comment .

Mark

Well same design .... different toroid ... good work!

P.S. Half done my TRM on the small 1 inch torroid! I will finish soon but not tonight because I have a job un like IST...hehehe

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 15, 2009, 05:19:15 PM

@ Mk1

Quote from: Mk1 on July 15, 2009, 04:52:44 PM
Well , not really since i already had 2 x 850 v on 2x70 turns , the coil only go one way on each side so its easier to get really high voltage in phase , but i don't believe this to be a improvement , its more on the bragging side side of things ...

But i made a drawing ...

Thanks. So to get 1000 volts you put both pickup coils in series? Was the 1000 volts with a 1.5 volt battery?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 15, 2009, 05:22:12 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 15, 2009, 05:19:15 PM
@ Mk1

Thanks. So to get 1000 volts you put both coil in series? Was the 1000 volts with a 1.5 volt battery?

Yes AA.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 15, 2009, 05:23:12 PM

@ jeanna

I think this is what you are trying to do. This is a common Tesla coil circuit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 15, 2009, 05:27:34 PM

@all phantom readers and experimenters

Its time to show your self , you are all needed .

Come work with us , it is hour time to shine and keep torch high .

Mark

@xee

There are other circuit refinements made by tesla like the dual spark gap .

Have watch the Lideman movie ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on July 15, 2009, 05:39:28 PM

@Mk1

Thank you for explaining that to me. It makes much more sense now.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 15, 2009, 05:41:34 PM

Quote from: stprue on July 15, 2009, 05:17:50 PM
Well same design .... different toroid ... good work!

P.S. Half done my TRM on the small 1 inch torroid! I will finish soon but not tonight because I have a job un like IST...hehehe

ha my job is much bigger than you can imagine ..

:D

hahahahaha...

nice mark .. i was starting to wonder as i finished my last coil 20 turn x 12 and my results were poor ...

like 175 v from a aa so it is a turn thing .. i had 120 turns .. on the one i was getting 410 from

it was a 10 to 1 turn ratio..

btw

stew

i got some HEATER RINGS TO DEVOLOP ... ILL JUST USE 1 OF MY HUNDREDS OF DESIGNS ...

I SAID PISS ON THE FLASH LIGHTS AS THE GUY BUGGED AND BUGGED ME SO NOW .. LOL

he will have to devolop his own junk ... lol ;) :-*

ist

ps mark .. get a MICROWAVE DIODE..... ;)

and for my next ring ill build mk1's hv unit .. on a 1" black ring to see what i get for results ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 15, 2009, 05:55:45 PM

@ Mk1

Quote from: Mk1 on July 15, 2009, 05:09:56 PM
My toroid is not form gold mine ...

So its hard to comment .

Mark

You must have a very high permability toroid to get 1000 volts with only 140 turns. I can not think of any other explanation.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 15, 2009, 07:30:42 PM

@all

I just got burned buy my jt twice , the second time was mo make sure i wasn't imagining things . Humm

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 15, 2009, 07:36:13 PM

@ Mark:

Sounds like an RF burn...your frequency must really be getting up there. Be careful man.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 15, 2009, 08:18:45 PM

Umm Hi everybody,
I was just watching the Lindemann movie again.

I have the patents downoaded and before I watch it again I will study them more closely since the movie is so blurry.(like my scope shots)

So, xee2 yes and no.
I am not wanting to force the direction from the secondary.
I want to use an inductor and ground one wire but there are 2 other wires or at least one more wire I need, I think.

So, I am thinking of splitting the 2 secondary wires like a Y.
Remember the amazing 1300 volts gadget got a while back? (yes, bill just mentioned it this morning) he did this by making 2 wires out of one side of the secondary..
That may be enough, or I may need another on the other side.

I had this interesting result 2 times. They are related but I am just starting to get how... from P Lindemann.
I most recently rediscovered that if I put a secondary wire in the middle of 3 leds (diodes- maybe I am forcing the direction) the lights are all much brighter and they do not effect the other array using the other secondary which is a separate loop on its own.
The picture for this is the most recent pic next door.

The other related one is that when I was playing with this part of the 2 tier (before I straightened the drawing out) I had the secondary in the middle place of 2 leds and I removed some wire and the leds stayed lit with only one wire.
I am sure these are related.
I have not been able to repeat this, although I did make a drawing at the time.

@Mark,
It may be that it is necessary to use a spark, but everything that P.Lindemann says can be done to some degree with the very sharp pulses we are getting with our joule thief pickups/secondaries.
I am hoping I just need to get the connections and probably the wire length right.

Ian middleton told me about the 1/4 wave last year. I don't think it will be too hard. The waves are pretty long and 5-8 feet is right in the place of 1/4 of something... I don't remember what, but I have a link and will return with this info in a bit.
EDIT
If the applet is right, 2 meters is 1/4 wavelength for around 38MHz. I think that is what the MK1 is since it starts with about 2 meters folded...etc right?

wow we are on!!

jeanna

OK I will repost that drawing here since we are all here.
j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 16, 2009, 08:33:04 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on July 15, 2009, 05:41:34 PM
ha my job is much bigger than you can imagine ..

:D

hahahahaha...

nice mark .. i was starting to wonder as i finished my last coil 20 turn x 12 and my results were poor ...

like 175 v from a aa so it is a turn thing .. i had 120 turns .. on the one i was getting 410 from

it was a 10 to 1 turn ratio..

btw

stew

i got some HEATER RINGS TO DEVOLOP ... ILL JUST USE 1 OF MY HUNDREDS OF DESIGNS ...

I SAID PISS ON THE FLASH LIGHTS AS THE GUY BUGGED AND BUGGED ME SO NOW .. LOL

he will have to devolop his own junk ... lol ;) :-*

ist

ps mark .. get a MICROWAVE DIODE..... ;)

and for my next ring ill build mk1's hv unit .. on a 1" black ring to see what i get for results ..

It seems pretty obvious to me now....that torroid perm and flux make all the difference in output after seeing mk's results and mine on almost exact design. I wonder how Hazens1 new torroides are working out???

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 16, 2009, 09:49:03 AM

so why do you quote my words .. ?

and why is it your looking for high voltage then post macs video and ask questions all bout it ... hummm

when you can plainly see the coil in this thred ......
ARE YOU STILL FISHING STPURE ...

and further more why do you think you need high voltage ... lol

does the self running bedini use 1000v spikes to self run ... naw why the hell would it ...
how about a cap and a diode off the transistor

any way enjoy .. it all works on the little kick ...

why not take a small transformer for hv kicks if thats what your after ..

kinda like a fugi cam tranny ..

i think you should focous on makeing IT SELF RUN ....

have you done this yet stpure??

ist!

btw ... take the toroide away ... lol all i need is a single peice of wire to see ... FREE ELECTRICTY ..

@jeanna ....

i have a question about the last schem you posted ... lol

why did you runn the secondaries EXTRA LONG .... hummmmmm

is there some kind of close couppling effect ?

if you dont know what im talking about i will be surprized ... :D

if i must ill copy and circle the schem .. and point it out to you ...

that is the only thing i can see ...

;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 16, 2009, 12:27:48 PM

@ stprue

Quote from: stprue on July 16, 2009, 08:33:04 AM
It seems pretty obvious to me now....that torroid perm and flux make all the difference in output after seeing mk's results and mine on almost exact design. I wonder how Hazens1 new torroides are working out???

Jeanna has been assuming that the MK design provides better performance than a regular solenoid coil. My test have not shown that to be true, but I am only one experimenter. It seems that his better performance is due to some fantastic toroid not the design. Your comments would seem to support that idea since you repeated his design and did not get his fantastic performance.

Since you have an MK coil, can you document the performance of it and then make JT with everything the same except using a regular solenoid coil for the JT coils but with same number of turns as the MK coils and then document those results. I am still looking for some experimental evidence that the MK design produces better results than a regular solenoid coil but no one seems to want to do a direct comparison test.

If the MK design is better, I would like to see some tests showning how much better it is.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 16, 2009, 12:35:45 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on July 16, 2009, 09:49:03 AM
so why do you quote my words .. ?

It was more of a statement from me and I was wondering if you agreed!

and why is it your looking for high voltage then post macs video and ask questions all bout it ... hummm

[/quote]

More people still are, but I'm starting to think about this differently. I posted it because I though it was interesting but I don't know who he is obvoiusly...so I was hoping to be enlightened.

when you can plainly see the coil in this thred ......
ARE YOU STILL FISHING STPURE ...

[/quote]

Not sure what you mean. I'm fishing for information!

and further more why do you think you need high voltage ... lol

does the self running bedini use 1000v spikes to self run ... naw why the hell would it ...
how about a cap and a diode off the transistor

any way enjoy .. it all works on the little kick ...

[/quote]

I wish I got into the bedini stuff but I didn't!

i think you should focous on makeing IT SELF RUN ....

have you done this yet stpure??

;D
[/quote]

Some day....hopefully

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 16, 2009, 12:39:09 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 16, 2009, 12:27:48 PM
@ stprue

Jeanna has been assuming that the MK design provides better performance than a regular solenoid coil. My test have not shown that to be true, but I am only one experimenter. It seems that his better performance is due to some fantastic toroid not the design. Your comments would seem to support that idea since you repeated his design and did not get his fantastic performance.

Since you have an MK coil, can you document the performance of it and then make JT with everything the same except using a regular solenoid coil for the JT coils but with same number of turns as the MK coils and then document those results. I am still looking for some experimental evidence that the MK design produces better results than a regular solenoid coil but no one seems to want to do a direct comparison test.

If the MK design is better, I would like to see some tests showning how much better it is.

After making my last coil I would have to agree with everything said here.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 16, 2009, 12:39:59 PM

i have some infact many 2 coil designs ... but there NOT JOULE THEIF CIRCUITS..

they are wired much diffrently ..

there not mk2 coils eather ...

but they work well its teslas work ... the ozone gen deal but agin diffrent ..

with a single moT primary coil i was able to get some really high voltage kicks ... ;D from a 5v supply i never tryed with a aaa battery and i was only hand pulseing ...

but do to my laque of digital circuritry training .. and laque of basic electronics .. this has hindered me here ...

then i build stuff ship it out ... and never hear back .. and if i do its some fool trying to tell me my coils dont work ... lol

but i tell them its not my fault it doesent work for you ... lol when infact they hold THE EXACT SAME THING IN THERE OTHER HAND WORKING JUST FINE ... LOL

hummm but its my fault some how .. sheesh

be carful if you hook it up properly i have fried 40 fets in like 2 days in the past b4 i figured out why and since they RIP OFF THE PUBLIC IN CANADA they were not cheep .. like 4 -5 bucks each ...

and i work on no budget! so yea ... i guess i MUST RELEASE MY WORK PUBLIC SO IT REMAINS MINE ...

;) :o

IST!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 16, 2009, 12:41:21 PM

@ist,
I am going to work on the lower right corner of that secondary today.

I am not sure what you are asking about extra long.

They just go off to the right and never end. (Maybe that is what you are asking about?)

Today I will be splitting the wire on the bottom into a Y. Well from the picture it will be --< .

Then from that, which has 2 wire ends, I will add an inductor and some leds. I have not found a cap that helps with this setup, so I may not use one and just use the inductor.

I plan to keep the 10 series leds in the place where they are.
They are there to show me what is happening to the toroid.
If the lights brighten or go dim on that set, then I know I have done something to the toroid.

So, I do not know if I answered your question.
Feel free to take the picture and mark it up.

I believe this circuit is what we all should be using.
We can toss the little box... Well, it is fine over there using the battery and running the basic joule thief.

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 16, 2009, 12:57:06 PM

jeanna

im not sure how that works yet

:)

altho i think it may work i dont know how to put my thoughts to words right now on that ...

sorry

i will try at some point but i have not done ANY expairments with the close couppling effect yet ..

ist!

but it works cuz the flow in the wire .. and another being close to it as i understand .. weather it is a 12vdc battery and 2 wires .. there is potencial in the wires all the time weather the circuit is closed or not .. ;)so if they were fairly close there would be interaction i think one could tap ...

and yet not drain much at all from the source .. i saw this in the way you left the wires long on the secondaries .. plus i have had some chats in the past with a few people bout this kind a thing ..

but i have not tryed it ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 16, 2009, 01:02:31 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 16, 2009, 12:27:48 PM
@ stprue

Jeanna has been assuming that the MK design provides better performance than a regular solenoid coil. My test have not shown that to be true, but I am only one experimenter. ...

... I am still looking for some experimental evidence that the MK design produces better results than a regular solenoid coil but no one seems to want to do a direct comparison test.

If the MK design is better, I would like to see some tests showing how much better it is.

Hi xee2,

I actually have a shoebox full of the ones made in the solenoid fashion that do not work. I can't do much testing because they are so miserable.
There is one test you could do on your setup to see.

Make the solenoid go past the middle point and see what happens.
I made this kind of thing over and over. I first saw slayer make one this way, then hazens, then hazens again, and again one more time. Finally I had sworn off making them this way when you got the big toroid. 80 turns turned on a 4 watt fluro. very wonderful.
Will 300 turns triple this? will it increase after it crosses the center line?

I think stprue came up with a good solution in his latest wrapping design.
Maybe it is finished, or will be today.
Then we can see.
In examining the tesla patent about that winding, it became clear to me he used 2 separate secondaries and made 2 separate circuits from them. He never even tried to combine the 2 sides into one circuit. Well, I haven't seen it yet, if he did.

I agree with your frustration in not having anything to compare these things to.
Your solenoid showed that my assumption of having a better result with a more wavelike high frequency shape was not at all correct.
What you did is very valuable. - and I thank you for it.

After I am too tired to proceed today I will go through my notes and give you my data on these solenoid coils, but I really thought I had, all over this thread.
It was the reason I kept getting no results.

Bye the way, I am getting 160v on the one from yesterday and it will not light my little neon.
It also seems more 'reported voltage' is needed to light the neon as well as the fluro.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 16, 2009, 01:12:23 PM

@Jeanna

Yes the coil is half done but looking at it before I stopped working last night I noticed that once again the primary looked to be while wound correctly, like it was going to mess with the rotation. I have made up my mind though, and I will finish this one anyway. If it doesn't work I will wind the primary ( this should really be plural) in the mk2 fashion and maybe backwards, we will see!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 16, 2009, 01:13:02 PM

what about a 30 v jt to power a fet to switch it in that time .. with a higher voltage and amprage mimicing the same as the small coil in a big one .. ?

it will probally work as a good timeing and tuneing device ..

to control a bigger one .. to use as output ..

agin i do get lost in the million posibilities and ways of doing all this ..

you could do this with MOTS... RINGGGGG them with a fet in 2 TIME PHASES .. AND 2 FREQS..

collect from the mots then neo zap it to a cap or a 100W LIGHT BULB......

hummmm

ist!

i just drew a picture of this on paper last night ... if my drawing was not so messy i would post the drawing .. but .. im not going to as i have not built it yet ..

besides mk1 might want to do this ... but the mk2 coils were bifillar both of them 1 was npn other pnp in sync ... wired in revirse of 1 another .. but both wound the same way ..

agin 1 million ways ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 16, 2009, 01:20:56 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on July 16, 2009, 12:57:06 PM
...
i will try at some point but i have not done ANY experments with the close coupling effect yet ..

but it works cuz the flow in the wire ..

...so if they were fairly close there would be interaction i think one could tap ...

and yet not drain much at all from the source .. i saw this in the way you left the wires long on the secondaries .. plus i have had some chats in the past with a few people bout this kind a thing ..

I think I see.

I do not believe it has to be close and to couple magnetically or any other way.

Tesla put the other wire into the ground. In fact he put MORE than the other wire into the ground.
I need to sort out some of those extra wires, but that will be later.

My guess is that the reason you and others have a hard time with circuit drawings (me too) is that your circuit should be made the way tesla drew it.

xee2 made a drawing like it last night and called it the 'tesla coil circuit'.
I have been thinking about that.
Xee2 is an open minded experimenter who happened to be trained in electronics.
I guess xee2 learned it as an aside and for use only with tesla coil type things.

Is that right xee2?
I am not sure other EE trained people are even aware of this way to draw the circuit.

In any case, I suggest we all change over to that way.
It makes more sense and more importantly, it opens our minds to possibilities just from its very shape.

... wires trailing off into space.
That is a lot of potential, if you ask me!

I am off to experiment with the Y!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 16, 2009, 02:07:07 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on July 16, 2009, 01:02:31 PM
There is one test you could do on your setup to see.

Make the solenoid go past the middle point and see what happens.

I have already done this and posted the results. Here they are again.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on July 16, 2009, 02:27:13 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 16, 2009, 02:07:07 PM
@ jeanna

I have already done this and posted the results. Here they are again.

I have also went past middle and have had great success.

I think the Mk1 coil looks pretty neat and I have tried my hand at winding a few and really never saw anything the would make me believe it has any advantage over a normal winding.

Can someone please explain to me why the Mk1 coil is better? And can show proof with some shots from a scope? I would like to see that documented on a toroid that can be purchsed anywhere an not one thats hard to find.

Thanks!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 16, 2009, 03:59:38 PM

OK xee2, maybe you did. But that isn't what I meant.
If you are comparing results, did you take measurements on that 2 inch one when it was wound only half way? ... to compare with it all the way around?
If you did then that would be one comparison of your own coil where you had wound just half then across the center.
But perhaps you did.

@Altrez, I have some scope shots but people hate my fuzzy scope shots. (so do I)
I will put some up sometime if I can.
Basically they are far more complex. They sometimes have sinewaves; mostly, they have spikes going both up and down.
Do you remember the one ist showed yesterday where there were 2 up-spikes of different lengths and 2 shorter down-spikes of different lengths?

That is a shape I have seen many times on MK style pickups.

But, I have also seen ringing on things that were not mk designs.

I was doing a test for myself one day because I was wanting to get this.
I did one after another and then in the end I looked at some previous results from mk1's and there was no comparison.
It is possible that that day was before I was really comfortable with my scope.
I may not have a scopeshot of all that from that day.

BUT, the bottom line is the bottom line.
If it doesn't get better results as in lighting fluro for 10 hours, then it is not better even if it is prettier.
Bottom line.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 16, 2009, 04:00:13 PM

now were touching on orbit ...

and im not going there yet ...

wires off into space ... :D

lol

here is 1 way i look at this ..

if i made a bifillar mk2 coil meaning both coils are bifillar .. the magic feild created upon colapse now with just 1 transistor is what your tapping ...

if i did 2 of them pos and neg in sync .. will both colapses aid the electro magic ??

i bet they would if wound properly as long as you dont tap the transistor and if you did tap it i would use 1 of 2 methods ... a diode and a super cap or just a non polorized cap then the cap would fill for the next pulse .. but this can get dangrous ....

so i dont post how to do it as the fly back from the coil compounds in the fireing cap

TESLA TRANSFORMER ... ?

SO KEEP THE KICK MAGNETIC IF YOU CAN TAP FROM THAT ...

AS THE BIG MAGNETICS PRODUCED COME FROM THE KICK

THEN YOU COULD GET CRAZY AND ADD THIS TO THE TESLA PATTEND BOTH NPN AND PNP OUT OF PHASE ..

IF YA GET WHAT I MEAN ...

8)

ist!

4 transistors 1 toroide 4 bifiller coils and transformer windings/ generator windings ...

first pair in sync npn pnp then the next pair in sync

so you have it going 12 12 12 bla bla bla

but all i can find is a SILLY FLASHLIGHT OFFER LOL !!!!!

NO THANK YOU! :)

FLOROS ARE NOT good 4 u .... incase you dont know .... why does inperfection exsist ...

if you made a perfect coil ... would it not self destruct in a short time ... ?

mk1 maybe you need to reteach them HOW TO TUNE A TOROIDE ....

can you please ...

you explain it i will do it as i need to do it to my biggo .... B4 I BUILD MY 6 PHASE 2 FREQ DUBBLE POWER SUPPLY UNIT ON IT ... THAT WILL ONLY RUN FROM AN EXTERNAL SOURCE TO RECHARGE THE FIRST SET OF DRIVEING BATTERIES ... then its on its own ..... POWER...

HUMMMMM

THIS WILL MAKE A HUGE DIFFRANCE ON YOUR OU PUT..... ;) :D :o 8)

then i guess you could drain the driveing battery or my STARTOR ...and find out my cop lol ;) :D :)

but im just guessing for ever is a long time to waite for the results of the output test ... so you could effectivly do the math... ;D :D

oh yea BOOOOYAH! LOL ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 16, 2009, 04:08:22 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on July 16, 2009, 03:59:38 PM
did you take measurements on that 2 inch one when it was wound only half way? ... to compare with it all the way around?

No.

But if you look at the 3.38" toroid data I posted for 20, 60, and 80 turns you will see that it follows the equation I posted for pickup coil voltage vs number of pickup coil turns. These coils covered various amounts of the toroid.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 16, 2009, 04:13:54 PM

@xee2

First thing i see is that the way you make your pickup coil is the same as the regular mk .
so i guess you will not find a answer there .

Now if most of you did not check for dead spot then , you have no clue as to why i would separate the jt coils ...

I notice that at some location on the toroid would get 3 to 4 volts per turn and other location less then one volt, so i decided to make a design that would give me the same voltage per turn any where on the toroid .

Also i keep the jt coil to the same number of turns , to improve the resonance factor.

Now i do not care anymore for the highest voltage because it only show a minimal part of what we need to know , there is also something called maximum power transfer , and by the way any of you guys made led sing ...

The problem is that most assume the field goes all the way around the toroid , not true unless you made sure it did.

Altrez do not worry your coil are not that different , now if you ask me the single most interesting thing about my design is the jt coil them self and are responsible for the led working both ways .And the caps charge faster , so there is still something here .

Now if i make a design that get me 3 v per turn , i will need less turns for a higher voltage and could improve the power transfer by weight tuning the thing .

Plus i like the way mine looks .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on July 16, 2009, 04:22:11 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on July 16, 2009, 04:13:54 PM
@xee2

First thing i see is that the way you make your pickup coil is the same as the regular mk .
so i guess you will not find a answer there .

Now if most of you did not check for dead spot then , you have no clue as to why i would separate the jt coils ...

I notice that at some location on the toroid would get 3 to 4 volts per turn and other location less then one volt, so i decided to make a design that would give me the same voltage per turn any where on the toroid .

Also i keep the jt coil to the same number of turns , to improve the resonance factor.

Now i do not care anymore for the highest voltage because it only show a minimal part of what we need to know , there is also something called maximum power transfer , and by the way any of you guys made led sing ...

The problem is that most assume the field goes all the way around the toroid , not true unless you made sure it did.

Altrez do not worry your coil are not that different , now if you ask me the single most interesting thing about my design is the jt coil them self and are responsible for the led working both ways .And the caps charge faster , so there is still something here .

Now if i make a design that get me 3 v per turn , i will need less turns for a higher voltage and could improve the power transfer by weight tuning the thing .

Plus i like the way mine looks .

Mark

Thank you for taking the time to explain that :) I see now what your getting at. If there are dead spots in the toroid then your design would account for that.

I am not sure there are dead spots as I have not noticed them before "does not mean there not there" I will see if I can find any on my toroid's.

Thanks!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 16, 2009, 05:34:00 PM

@ Mk1

Quote from: Mk1 on July 16, 2009, 04:13:54 PM
@xee2
Now if most of you did not check for dead spot then , you have no clue as to why i would separate the jt coils ...

I notice that at some location on the toroid would get 3 to 4 volts per turn and other location less then one volt, so i decided to make a design that would give me the same voltage per turn any where on the toroid .

I have not found any dead spots. I have put my coils in as many differrent locations as I could and did not see any difference in performance.

If you can produces twice the voltage I am getting using the same number of turns for the pickup coil then that would be a big step forward. However, unless the data is taken using the same toroid type it is hard to compare results. I do not get over 1000 volts with my toroids using only 140 turns. But others who have used your design do not seem to get over 1000 volts with 140 turns either. So the only conclusion I can make is that there is something special about you core and not the windings.

My results using one of your designs were the same as the solenoid coils I am using. I did not see any improvement in performance. I have not seen anyone document an improvement in performance using your designs. That does not mean they are not better, only that there is no documentation to show how much better they are. Perhaps you could do a comparison test and post the results.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 16, 2009, 05:50:16 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 16, 2009, 04:08:22 PM
@ jeanna
No.

But if you look at the 3.38" toroid data I posted for 20, 60, and 80 turns you will see that it follows the equation I posted for pickup coil voltage vs number of pickup coil turns. These coils covered various amounts of the toroid.

Yes,
I was only suggesting that you had also not done the experiment you were calling for.

You could do half then full on your 2 toroids and see if going to the other side by itself doubles the voltage. - or more importantly takes it down.

I assumed that you had compiled a certain amount of your own data to make the prediction you made. (you did)
And, if you needed more data you had the opportunity to gather more from your own toroid by making a full one from the big one.

thassall!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 16, 2009, 06:00:39 PM

@xee

I don't care much , to prove or disprove anything , both are different , high voltage is one thing but doesn't tell us much , as for the dead spot , you can only know if you checked so ...

But i have to say my coil looks better then yours ,lol , that is so second grade ...

But as a always said know your toroid first , in my experience going up and down once is better then doing up down up down up down 8 layer thick .

Now unless any one with a scope made a picture of the different wave shape because it is basically the only way to see it.

Voltage is one thing if we don't go beyond that , this tread will have been a waist of time , even if we do have fun.

Xee i know you think you know better , good for you , but keep a open mind .

As i do with what you do .

Your ac circuit is really interesting , and can really help getting more useful results .

But if your only base to compare , is voltage then ...

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 16, 2009, 06:21:31 PM

@ Mk1

Quote from: Mk1 on July 16, 2009, 06:00:39 PM
@xee
But i have to say my coil looks better then yours ,lol , that is so second grade ...

;D I have to agree with you on that.

I also agree that coils put on top of other coils are not the same as coils put directly on the core, but I have no data to show how much worse they are.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 16, 2009, 06:29:44 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on July 16, 2009, 05:50:16 PM
You could do half then full on your 2 toroids and see if going to the other side by itself doubles the voltage. - or more importantly takes it down.

All of my data for all of my tests agrees with the equation which says that to double the voltage the number of turns on the pickup coil must be increased 4 times. Where the turns are placed does not matter. Those are my experimental results.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 16, 2009, 06:31:11 PM

i just thought i would inform the public ...

b4 someone tryes to rip my work off... that im doing ...

cuz im poor ...

im makeing POWER POINT demos FOR THE ELECTRIC CAR INDSTRY .. FOR A POWER SUPPLY ...

as well as i have ideas i also have dreams of 1 day makeing it in this world ...

so i must stand back and SAY THANK YOU TO STEPHAN AND EVERYONE INVOLVED ON OVERUNITY ...

this site documents time and date of ORIGINAL IDEAS ... ;) ;D

portection for the poor ones out there ... ;D

of course when i perfect my design .. THOSE THAT HELPED ME I WILL IN RETURN HELP THEM ...

PEACE ...

BUILD THE LAST UNIT PROVE IT WRONG ... TOO AGIN YOU CAN NOT!

WILLIAM

btw theres where your 1/4 wave length fits ... tapping the harmonics ? might that be ?

i have seen many bands on my scope ... some i assume are voltage and some are maybe amparage nodes ..

i just got done drawing up my 6 phase 2 freq pnp npn in sync ring ..... wow i dont even know what to call the darn thing ...

lol

so there will actually be 12 jt coils as primaries .. 3 pnp and 3 npn per phase all wound same dirrection ... like the 5555 coil

i will likely use 5 turn / per only 1 lap ... as my cores work well with 5 turns ...

it is a 1.5 k core .. grey feroite 5 5/8 "

the goal of this unit is dc output .. to a BATCAP.... lol

of course ill only build it from a few aaa batteries for now till i have a BUNCH OF ENGINEERS ..

i like to play safe ...

i wound a simple unit to show half of my advanced unit i just spoke of ...

first picture is half of my first phase .. this is npn ...

second picture is npn pnp 1 phase ... i will dubble this for 2 phases .. but im out of room on this core ... lol

i did this to show how my simple advanced units will operate .. sure i can do this in the mk2 winding unit ... lol i already have it drawen in pencil .. ;D

hows that for retarted lol 48 jt wires ends ... hummm 12 transistors 2 3 led chasers ..

you can see plainly how simple it is ... :o

key toroide tuneing .. wire length mass to mass tuneing phaseing flip flop ... bla bla .. lots too it but

seams damm simple to me ... ;) :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 17, 2009, 12:44:16 AM

just incase you all thought i wasent gonna build it ... ;D

;)

ist

btw those are all jt primaries ... :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 17, 2009, 01:13:52 AM

Well ist,
You and I seem to be having a lot of fun today.

@Everybody,
I just posted a drawing of the new secondary with the Y.
Understandably the scope sees nothing at all across the 2 arms of the Y, but I can see 3 bright lights.
Also, the rest of the lights in the other secondary circuit called S1 did not dim a bit.

I am pretty excited by this.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 17, 2009, 01:27:08 AM

must be our day ... ;)

great job !! btw ..

it is also my sons birthday!! ;D happy birthday SKY

this i will call his coil ...

hows that for a birthday gift! ;)

william :) love you big guy!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 17, 2009, 02:09:25 AM

Ah happy birthday SKY
How old is Sky today?

@xee2,
I made this table for you.
There are other pieces of info that I can compile and I will add to this, but for starters this is one comparison chart of volts to turns. The very reason I did the test. Everything stayed the same, but the number of turns advanced.
1T to 11T

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 17, 2009, 05:26:26 AM

@ all

Well my hypothesis is wrong. Not a little bit wrong, but very wrong. Please disregard.

@ jeanna

Thanks for doing your tests. When I reviewed my own data the equation did not work for it. Sorry to have wasted your time with a false hypothesis and thanks for doing your tests - they should be good for future reference.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 17, 2009, 10:43:27 AM

i enjoy fun just as much as the next guy .. lol

SKY is 8 years old now .. wow time just flys by ..

so the SKY GUY'S RINGS WILL DRIVE MANY THINGS ... ;D

peace!

THE TEAM ... guided by management of course ..... ;) lol

ill add this then i think it is best i shut up and get to work on my power point presentation ..

what if tesla never tapped the electrics for his car.... and used the npn and pnp kick in a magnetic fasion im just guessing ....

cuz how could i ever know .. ;D

i really better :-X cuz yikes there may not be a market for the rings in a car ... if i do a motor ring unit ... lol ..

me being me IST! ;D

but i sure do LOVE THE IDEA OF PLUGGING THE CAR INTO THE HOUSE TO RECHARGE IT .. AND BACK FEED THROUGH THE GRID ... LOL

o 1 more thing bout 1.5 years ago ALI says DADDY make a dirt bike ... she says you just push it and away you go .... ;D

i just love children .... there soooo amazing!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 17, 2009, 11:34:28 AM

Here is some data comparing a JT with an Mk1 design to a solenoid design. The Mk1 design produced about a 3% higher output voltage. But, I do not think that is a very significant difference. If others have data showing a larger improvement I hope they will post it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 17, 2009, 12:04:21 PM

your missing HALF OF IT LOL ..

ist

your only grabbing it 1 way ... try the back wind ... you have a NORTH AND SOUTH POLE ON EACH ELECTRO MAGNET.....

:D

here is another idea i will share with you all ok cuz it is half out now ..

for the heater KICK START RING UNITS im designing right now the will be EQUIPED WITH a grid back feeder to use the power generated from the ring ... ;D

but there not just heaters there air conditioners .. too i think my investor knows the maker ;) :D

so i will have some BATCAPS in it a big ring an invertor to drive the unit as it normally should be

maybe put an aux out put from the invertor in it and then when the unit is not running ... air con or heat ... the ou put goes into this new invertor that is out on the market .... that matches the ac mains feed automatically and starts to feed into the grid ...

shit i could build it with almost off the shelf parts ... lol for not that much money ... when you look at heating and cooling costs ...

yes like i said im over the top and im not bragging nor is this an ego thing .. this is the reality of earth and we are currently destorying our home ...

so i hope 1 day soon we can start restoreing this garden ...

:)

btw for guests that come by they will think it is plugged in to the wall as normal till you unplugg it

and roll it in to the next room and it is still running then you plugg a reading lamp into it too

just to show it off .... lol :P

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 17, 2009, 12:27:49 PM

@ ist

Quote from: innovation_station on July 17, 2009, 12:04:21 PM
your missing HALF OF IT LOL ..

This is way he said he got over 1000 volts with only 140 turns.

REF: Reply #8281 on: July 15, 2009, 10:52:44 PM

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 17, 2009, 12:48:25 PM

dont you think it is still running 2 dirrections ?

ist hummmmmm

i still see 2 north and 2 south poles ......

here is a picture of the unit i have to finish this week end for a demo next week :)

this is not all of it there is still more to the INPUT SIDE .. and i have not gone to the out put side yet!! :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 17, 2009, 01:51:32 PM

wavelength calculator.
I am still kind of looking for a toroid inductor calculator but I found this in my bookmarks.

http://www.wavelengthcalculator.com/ (http://www.wavelengthcalculator.com/)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 17, 2009, 02:26:48 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on July 17, 2009, 01:51:32 PM
wavelength calculator.
I am still kind of looking for a toroid inductor calculator but I found this in my bookmarks.

http://www.wavelengthcalculator.com/ (http://www.wavelengthcalculator.com/)

jeanna

Toroid inductance calculator:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/magnetic/indtor.html

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 17, 2009, 03:18:21 PM

@xee

To avoid confusion , i have to say that what most people refer to when speeking of mk pickup coil , it is not the way a last presented .

Now 3 volt over 20 turns fine. 6v=40t ,9v=60t ,12v=80t ,15v = 100t,18v=120 20v = 140t

So i see a 20 volt gap with 140 turns ...

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 17, 2009, 04:47:40 PM

guys i never said i had it 100% figured out

thats the fun in it ;D

mk1 your gonna love this pic ... ;D i took it just for you

this first pic is my KICK STARTOR .. ;D

next pic is the next level unit ... still lame ass switches ... but 1 shift at a time .... :D

this is a kit i bought last year ... never bothered to assemble it yet... no rush ...

it is for better tuneing .. BY SOUND WAVES now i do have far in advance of the TESLA POWER UNITS SHOWEN .. ;)

but they operate diffrently ... more a UFO thing ;D

ist!

this unit is an execlant item for parties and dances... ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 17, 2009, 07:28:00 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 17, 2009, 02:26:48 PM
@ jeanna

Toroid inductance calculator:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/magnetic/indtor.html

Thanks,
Now xee2,
Have you calculated either of your coils?
If you have, what is the inductance you are calculating from them?

BTW folks,
I just got back from my annual trip to home depot. I picked up a 4 watt fluro tube. I will give it a try tomorrow since I don't need to be up til 4AM just to watch it go out! ;D

And they have a smaller globe (like the one I pictured last week) for 7 bucks as a ceiling light with a pull switch. Hopefully I can rig up the light socket with the jt battery so that a nice bunch of JT secondary leds will turn on by the switch. (the one without the switch was $5 or 6.)
The globe I got last week is so bright I cannot use it as a night light. It is too bright with 3 leds.
So, I will put 12 or 18 in it in series/parallel.
Then it will be enough to light the room.
One more directional led would be enough to read.
Good for those T-storms and blizzards.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 17, 2009, 10:48:56 PM

@ All:

Yucca posted this link over on the Kapandze topic and I thought it might be useful for some folks over here.

High voltage resistors are expensive and he said this link shows you how to make an adjustable one for free:

http://home.earthlink.net/~jimlux/hv/rwater.htm (http://home.earthlink.net/%7Ejimlux/hv/rwater.htm)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 17, 2009, 11:33:21 PM

@IST and MK1
Sorry about the very very late reply folks, I'm tied up with other things right now.

This is a flash tube I found in an spark tester to test the ignition timing for a car engine.
I have to find really thin wire to wind it with, one mistake and it will snap like a twig, I might have to make a jig to support it.

Quote from: innovation_station on July 15, 2009, 10:56:54 AM
@ jim

that thing is intresting ... is it a form of arc lighting ?
ist

I've noticed all the advances here, it's pritty good research info.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on July 17, 2009, 11:55:35 PM

@all

I do not want to sound like the boy that cried wolf wolf, but I have again the self charging spirit inside of my circuit.

My pulse motor is self running charging a three battery pack at the same time that is using another three battery pack of rechargeable batteries.

Also It is lighting two leds and charging another 1.5volts battery.
I know this is crazy, but I have to take advantage of that charging spirit when it is inside my circuit.

The strange thing is that I was using the three rechargeable pack trying to replicate @electricme's idea of three batteries and using the center one while charging the outside ones.

It worked for a while, but then it began to discharge the batteries.
I made a torid like the one @jeanna posted, that has 2 turns on one side the cross to the other side and have 3 turns, Tha is done twice and then adding 14 turns secondary.

I started the pulse motor with that toroid configuration and I saw when the usual charging behaviour started on my circuit.

I tried to get the best output with a small pot and went to the pot spot where there is no more current flowing through the toroid circuit and the pulse motor did not stop.

I began to take off parts from the joule thief and the motor kept running, I took all the parts from the jt and the pulse motor is still running.

I know it is very strange, that is why I say that my circuit is with the spirit again.

It is still running. I will see how long it will run, taking advantage and charging all the batteries I can.

I just dont know what is happening!!!!!!!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 18, 2009, 12:11:00 AM

@jesus,
That is amazing! The whole joule thief is gone? What is the circuit?
I think you have named it well.
The spirit joule thief.

I was wondering the other day if this thing that happens is a kind of a capacitance collecting somewhere, or I mean a pressure on the battery kind of like capacitance.
You and Gary both have this kind of up and down.

I had freed up one of the pickup wires. So, I was wondering where to put it.
So, I added it to the battery while I had the meter watching the amps draw.
At first the amps draw went down, but then it went up and down and it made me think of a capacitor loading and unloading.

(In the end, it settled at a higher amps draw than without the wire there, so it did not add.)

This happened on both neg and pos side of the battery. For some reason I thought of your fickle joule thief when this happened.

Thank you for telling us,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 18, 2009, 12:17:28 AM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on July 17, 2009, 07:28:00 PM
Now xee2,
Have you calculated either of your coils?
If you have, what is the inductance you are calculating from them?

I bought the 3.38" cores because data was available on them. The manufacturer web page is
http://www.mag-inc.com/
and a catalog with data is at
http://www.mag-inc.com/ferrites/fc601.asp

The initial permability for W material is listed as 10,000. When I plug that into the calculator I get about 33 millihenries for an 80 turn coil. That seems about right to me but I make no guarantees about correctness. I have no way to measure inductance so I do not have any way to check this.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 18, 2009, 12:32:27 AM

That is great, xee2,
Thank you.

I think someone with your experience saying it seems about right with you is a good enough beginning.

I have had nothing to go on and I have resorted to using a store bought inductor because the inductance is known.
But that is it.
Now, this is very helpful.

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 18, 2009, 12:34:35 AM

@ jesus ..

it sounds like the cosmic dance ...

i have some videoes i made round last christmas .. of this effect only i was useing 6 freqs and 1 supply battery ..

it kinda went into a self oscolation .. when i went TO TAKE A PEEK IT COLPASED THE WAVE ... ;D

then later on the 6 freqs combined in nature and exploded a fet ... good thing i was not useing mots and a few thousand volts ...

THIS WAS THE MAIN REASON I NEVER SENT MY WORK HALF WAY ROUND THE GLOBE FOR FURTHER STUDY..

as it was un safe.. at that time ..

the reason being .. i had NO CONTROL OVER THE FREQS WHEN THEY COMBINED .. in that perticular setup

yes all switches were driven from a 555 and a fet then a relay then the 6 mots ... but agin uncontroled

and i will not accept the responcibility if some one got hurt from it so i said NO ... IT WAS NOT SAFE ..

now i have control ... over the freqs ... and i will not let them combine the way they have in the past ..

just my thoughts ... hence why i will not close the loop self feeding ... with out good control besides there is no need of that or insane speeds ...

imideatly i thought of quantum machinacis and THE DUBBLE SLIT EXPAIRMENT

IST!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEzRdZGYNvA

manny bands ...... hummmmm sounds like my scope and the bands.... ;D

i guess i colapsed my wave when i took a look

i have a meter that does inductance .. the whole reason i bough the darn thing .... over a year ago and i still never used it as i dont know how it works properly ... lol but it also plugs into my computer .. and monitors all kinds of things ...

here is the meter i have ..

http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.escience.ca/GFX/PRODS/DMR-5200.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.escience.ca/hobby/RENDER/0001/C8/3068/10654.html&usg=__rQQTZwLxfwvmfLbqBWi-TdJLpHg=&h=216&w=321&sz=26&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=fkjCkk0oZ96XLM:&tbnh=79&tbnw=118&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcircuit%2Btest%2Bdmr%2B5200%2Bmeter%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26hs%3DYUh%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1

here is 2 pics of my driver board .. in the works ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on July 18, 2009, 01:13:37 AM

Quote from: jeanna on July 18, 2009, 12:11:00 AM
@jesus,
That is amazing! The whole joule thief is gone? What is the circuit?
I think you have named it well.
The spirit joule thief.

I was wondering the other day if this thing that happens is a kind of a capacitance collecting somewhere, or I mean a pressure on the battery kind of like capacitance.
You and Gary both have this kind of up and down.

I had freed up one of the pickup wires. So, I was wondering where to put it.
So, I added it to the battery while I had the meter watching the amps draw.
At first the amps draw went down, but then it went up and down and it made me think of a capacitor loading and unloading.

(In the end, it settled at a higher amps draw than without the wire there, so it did not add.)

This happened on both neg and pos side of the battery. For some reason I thought of your fickle joule thief when this happened.

Thank you for telling us,

jeanna

The circuit is the one that has a 2200uf capacitor in order to assist the pulse motor.

The thing is that when the charging spirit entered on the circuit I eliminated the jt completely the only part left was the 2200uf cap and the three rechargeable 1.5v batteries on a battery holder.

The circuit is still charging now. The strange thing is that the charge on a single 1.5v battery it charged to 1.37v is empty voltage, it does not run a joule thief with a single led.

Very strange indeed.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 18, 2009, 01:18:11 AM

try rechargeing on the NEG side ..

have you .. in the past?

i have been able to recharge both pos and neg in the past

i was useing a dubble supply battery when doing this ... like bedini also when i was messing round with that style setup i got zapped a few times and i mean ZAPPED far more than 24vdc and im not talking a little kiss from hemf or colapseing effect im talking like putting your finger in the socket...

I STILL DONT KNOW HOW I DID THAT but thats ok cuz it HURT!! LOL

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 18, 2009, 04:26:56 AM

;D Its Cartoon Time Again ::)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 18, 2009, 04:41:15 AM

Jim:

Another great cartoon! You have a gift for not only drawing these things but, for capturing the spirit of what is going on. I think you should get the OU prize just for your cartoons.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on July 18, 2009, 05:59:38 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on July 17, 2009, 10:48:56 PM
@ All:

Yucca posted this link over on the Kapandze topic and I thought it might be useful for some folks over here.

High voltage resistors are expensive and he said this link shows you how to make an adjustable one for free:

http://home.earthlink.net/~jimlux/hv/rwater.htm (http://home.earthlink.net/%7Ejimlux/hv/rwater.htm)

Bill

Water resistors are wildly dangerous..esp this design, potentially explosive given a long delay, as well as capacitive with potential to create current.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 18, 2009, 07:39:50 AM

@Bill
Sorry about this late reply, so many things holding me far behind now, I only up to P822 and just found your post now.

Quote from: Pirate88179 on July 14, 2009, 05:46:57 AM
Jim:

I have always thought that a very well tuned Bedini could run on caps alone....no batteries. Now, I have never done this but, with the advent of supercaps, I believe this to be totally possible. Supercaps, I think, will store those spikes and make them readily available faster and more efficient than batteries will so one could take a cap and precharge it and then run the motor and charge the second cap and then use a auto switching device to run forever.

I have a lot of ideas and not that much knowledge and even less funds.

Off-topic: I am now working on a motorized bicycle that will get over 150 miles per gallon and will go 35 mph. I ordered my motor tonight and got the bike a few days ago. I can use this in my legal document delivery service. (Process service)

Bill

Any motor/electrical device will run forever, only trick is to be able to match its comsumption of energy, but if the output is higher than its input, then you will have succeeded.
A lot of people have managed to find this sweet crossoverpoint.

Bill with this motorised bike, you should enter the Tour De France, he he he.
I can picture it now, much burning rubber, lots-a thick smoke, great big trojan batteries haningin from the cross bar, a set of 1000watt flood lights purched on the ape hangers.
Each wheel fitted with duel disk trucky air brakes, an a big 3 phase extension lead to powerup de batteries, where does it gets its charge from?

The humble Joule Thief of course.

I think I have lost it in the top paddock chaps, a bit like spittin in the wind, lol it flys back and sticks to you.

Ohh boy time to go to P824

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on July 18, 2009, 07:59:03 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on July 18, 2009, 01:18:11 AM
try rechargeing on the NEG side ..

have you .. in the past?

i have been able to recharge both pos and neg in the past

i was useing a dubble supply battery when doing this ... like bedini also when i was messing round with that style setup i got zapped a few times and i mean ZAPPED far more than 24vdc and im not talking a little kiss from hemf or colapseing effect im talking like putting your finger in the socket...

I STILL DONT KNOW HOW I DID THAT but thats ok cuz it HURT!! LOL

ist

I dont know if today this post will go through. I have been trying to post answers to posts directed at me but have been unable. It seems that the forum is successful at the moment and cannot handle the amount of people that are interested at the same time. Great forum by the way!!

I saw your post of the multimeter and it is out of reach for me.

The pulse mortor is still running. It was all night long flashing 2 leds connected between the collector of the transistor (with a diode and a resistor for the leds) and ground.

In the morning I saw that the leds were discharging the batteries and disconnected them. The batteries risen to 3.64v without the leds and then went down to a stable voltage of 3.45v.

I am discovering what is the secret of this behaviour and if it is what I think you wont believe it when I tell you if the pulse motor keeps running at least for more than three days.

That was the record from the other one before I disassembled it and could not get the same behaviour after reassembling it.

So I will test it for 2 more days and then I will disassemble it and reassemble it and if I discovered what it is, it will work back as before self charging.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on July 18, 2009, 09:13:09 AM

Great work jesus.

You might try hooking up the led again and disconnecting it over and over to see what effect it will have on the battery.

All the best.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on July 18, 2009, 09:53:30 AM

@all

If I try to answer a personal mail to me, there is an error screen all the time that says that the page cannot be reach.

Then if I try to quote a post there is another error shown that the page is not available or something like that.

I copied the message from my PM folder and will answer it here.

Quote
Hello Jesus,
I'm really happy you have managed to get my little extra bit of circuit suggestion to work for you.
I had not tried taking the JT out of the circuit.
Very interresting this.

Im of course referring to my pencilled drawing I posted about 3 weeks ago, upteen posts ago lol.

Could you please send me this circuit exactly as you have it connected and running.

hooroo Jesus

jim

I will post the complete circuit in stages at the feedback to the source topic from the beggining to the end after I finish the 2 days test.

The test consist on seeing that the pulse motor is still running and self charging. Then unassemble it and reassemble it to see if it is really a self charging circuit.

You will be amazed of how a simple capacitor changed the whole thing to self charging.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 18, 2009, 11:53:25 AM

@ jim nice cartoon ... ;D of course it is only rocks falling out my pockets ... :) this guy got no change to put in them ... not yet anyhow... :)

ill let you all in on my simple trick

to protect the fets .. and recover .. and redirrect aswell you can plunk a cap on the gap ;D

i have in the past used a diode comeing off the transistor only allowing the pulse to pass through 1 dirrection ... and i then put another diode in the same place in the revirse dirrection to redirrect the fly back ... and rectify it ... and make it usefull for many things ...

i would do this to both fets npn and pnp then drive the fets with a jt and a freq genny ... cuz you want the fets to run high on the in side .. so you have super fast off times .. and then you can use the fets to switch 12vdc ...

or what ever you want to switch ...

now when doing this DO REMEMBER THE EDISSON GENERATORS FROM WAYYYYY BACK IN THE DAY ... MANY LOST THERE LIVES .. CUZ THIS EFFECT

BE WIZE.. the kick operates on amprage too ;) so if i get 1000 x my in put in voltage ... if i increased my amprage on the input ... will the amprage be amped aswell ??? hummmm

lol

ist

ok nose back at the bench :D

btw TESLAS KICK TRICK KICKS ASS .... DONT LET IT KICK YOURS!! ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 18, 2009, 01:35:28 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on July 18, 2009, 01:13:37 AM
The circuit is the one that has a 2200uf capacitor in order to assist the pulse motor.

Jesus

Jesus,
Where on your circuit do you have the pulse motor?
Is it parallel to the 2200uFcap?

@Jim,
Another cool cartoon. Thanks. You are good at cartoons!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 18, 2009, 03:17:15 PM

@ jeanna

Here is another way to compute inductance. The following equation is from the manufacturers catalog which gives AL for the 3.38" cores as 11040. This equation says that to get 34 mH the number of turns should be 55. So the calculator says 80 turns and this equation says 55 turns. This equation says that 80 turns produces 70 mH of inductance. Twice as much as the calculator gave. I suspect that this is a more accurate calculation.

EDIT: for the 3.38" toroids only >>> millihenries = 0.01104 (turns)^2

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on July 18, 2009, 09:26:42 PM

Quote from: Cap-Z-ro on July 18, 2009, 09:13:09 AM
Great work jesus.

You might try hooking up the led again and disconnecting it over and over to see what effect it will have on the battery.

All the best.

Regards...

It has been very hard to post lately.Sometimes after I make a long written explanation, the machine put an error page the page freezes up and the explanation is lost.

Then I forget the details I wrote before.
Maybe this one also dont go to the forum, who knows.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on July 18, 2009, 09:32:38 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 18, 2009, 01:35:28 PM
Jesus,
Where on your circuit do you have the pulse motor?
Is it parallel to the 2200uFcap?
...
jeanna

If posting is difficult, trying to modify an error is worst.

Yes, the pulse motor is parallel to the 2200uf cap.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 18, 2009, 11:45:45 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on July 18, 2009, 09:32:38 PM
If posting is difficult, trying to modify an error is worst.

Yes, the pulse motor is parallel to the 2200uf cap.

Thank you jesus.

Maybe this is why the forum seems sleepy today?
I have been trying to catch up on the energetic forum to see what imhotep's design was all about.

I sure would rather pulse it with a joule thief than a relay switch.
Noisy stuff, relays.
But really good work was happening over there last summer.

Anyway, thank you for finishing up my question.

I am wondering about the extra large size of the cap that seems to be making it work. According to tesla, the size of the cap can make no difference or a great deal of difference.
You seem to have found that in your case it makes a big difference.
Good work.
I think you cannot always just 'connect the dots" to get the correct picture.
I do think there is something else.
Maybe you are tapping into this something else too.
Lets hope so, eh?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 19, 2009, 02:26:42 AM

@ jeanna

This is something you may wish to try. With your scope you should be able to see the voltage at which the neon turns on. For low power circuits the a neon bulb can be used for a spark gap.

Once you have done this then you can modify the circuit to make a Tesla spark gap voltage multiplier by putting a transformer into the circuit.

Caution, this will produce high voltages - do not use capacitors with more than a few uF and make sure they are rated for at least 200 volts.

I do not have a scope so I have not done this, thus it is just theory. But it should work.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 19, 2009, 03:49:36 AM

@ jeanna

If the frequency is too high for your scope, you can slow down the capacitor charging rate by adding a capacitor and resistor as follows.

PS - I tested this circuit but I do not have scope to see waveform.

frequency is about 10/(RC) where units are Hz, ohms, and Farads

EDIT: after playing with this for a while, it seems that the neon current is limited so it will not discharge higher capacitance capacitors quickly. I have also had problems getting consistent frequency results. But it still works some what as a spark gap.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on July 19, 2009, 08:03:03 AM

@all

My pulse motor is still running at the same speed today.
I will proceed to disassemble the circuit and reassemble it and if it selfruns, I humbly will claim to have found the enormous simple detail that closes the loop on this kind of circuits.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on July 19, 2009, 08:46:19 AM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on July 19, 2009, 08:03:03 AM
@all

My pulse motor is still running at the same speed today.
I will proceed to disassemble the circuit and reassemble it and if it selfruns, I humbly will claim to have found the enormous simple detail that closes the loop on this kind of circuits.

Jesus

That is great work :) Thank you for shearing with everyone it looks like all your hard work has paid off.

Take care!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 19, 2009, 09:41:27 AM

i cant help it... im just full of ideas ... ;D

i got thease db107 bridge rectifiers from a shake it flashlight ... im gonna build a nice little floro light 2 stage jt simple kinda thing ..

i used this unit a few months ago in a bunch of tests ... i think i have 2 of thease units ..

so i will re build it on a all in 1 board useing a nano jt to recharge the 3.6v 40 ma surface mount ni-mh cell

then i will power a transistor to the jt i made 2 10 640 turn unit i was getting 620 v perfect sine from

ill mount it all on 1 board ... i should not need to hold the floro this time to lite it as im upping the input ... and it will still run from a aa or a aaa maybe even a button

hows that for

shock n awe .. lol ;)

i think im addicted to building ... :D

great work jesus.. !!!! awesome in fact! 8)

jesus maybe you could employ your feed back method to this unit and make it self chargeing ... ;) and perpetual ...

tune it up a bit and sell em ;) im sure it can be made really simple .. and cheep those bridges are only 30 cents buying 1 to 10 of them .. ;D

from the floro is where the nano jt toroide came from ill throw it togather today .. im doing it just to explain this teck at the demo ..

ist!

not cuz i want to sell them ... im into generators and motors pumps tpus all that kinda thing .. not flash lights ..

:) but if u put a aaa recharge able battery you could recharge the source battery when the light is not running .. or if you took 2 feeds off the 3.6v you could power the second stage jt and recharge the driveing battery at the same time ....

i decided to use a bigger toroide for this unit insted of the nano ... jusy cuz it is easyer to wind and more bigger wires fit .. just so i dont have to work with spider web wire ;) lol

the kool part of this unit is everyone can build it does not need to be tuned or neat and tidy it will still work .. my son sky could build it and will when i teach him ...

also this shake it flash lights guts has a 2 push button i will take advantage of that too

first click turns on the jt primary chargeing device ... second click turns on second jt unit im hopeing i can wire it this way .. i will just use the simple jt first ... if it does not recharge fast enough i will go to the mk2 series and 2 bridges ...

yikes i changed my mind agin ... lol i wound the simple jt in the IST FAST CRIDDER METHOD 5 TURN 3 LAP LOL that way if the flyback aint enough ill just wind 2 picup coils on it then rectify them to the battery ... this coill will ramp up you can hear it and see it on the scope being there is only 3 laps it will ramp slower .. but the wave will be way faster than my 20 mhz scope ... guessing there based on past tests ... ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 19, 2009, 10:47:05 AM

in 1 pulse this coil does 3 laps

hummmm :)

ist

when my gold mines get here i will do a SIMPLFLYED COIL .. 2 phases npn only 2 sypplyies ...

bounce coil tic then toc then tic agin .. back and forth .. the coil self chargeing as the supply flips so does the charge ..

o the fun with thease little coils.. working on the rechargeing part .. so far no problem .. 1.2v to 1.2 v im up to 1.155v on the recharge battery .. just tapping the fly back .. wich is a poor way to do it .. but it works ..

but so what if you throw a small solar there too to insure it is always recharged .. lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 19, 2009, 03:17:20 PM

Neon as spark gap video, R=20M and C=0.47uF. Video should play in Windows media player. This is a test to see if it works. Save attachment then play.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 19, 2009, 04:00:05 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 19, 2009, 03:17:20 PM
Neon as spark gap video, R=20M and C=0.47uF. Video should play in Windows media player. This is a test to see if it works. Save attachment then play.

I got it.
Thanks and that is cool.
I would like to try your idea
R== ohms? =20Megaohm?

I was just wondering if my neon was going on too fast to see. (Did I mention that yesterday? or did you know my next question?)

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 19, 2009, 04:24:23 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on July 19, 2009, 04:00:05 PM
R== ohms? =20Megaohm?

Yes, it was 20 meg. I do not have scope so only way I can see if it is working is to slow it down until I can see it blink.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 19, 2009, 05:23:23 PM

Thanks xee2,
I will set that up in a bit.

I am under the impression that a spark was the only really practical way to set up an oscillation in tesla's time. I have been reading the pdf from Butler windings, today, and in it, there is a lot about using a mag amp as a switching device.
The pdf is taken from a text written in 1960. Transistors existed, but even then, the mag amp was ignored as a switching device.
It is completely solid state.
When done properly, there is no need for a transistor.
The toroid and the design of the windings produce the ac output which is desired...
I think the only reason I could get through it was because of my experience with the joule thief which is partially one of these devices. (Or, at least, it utilizes many of the features of the mag amp.)

The question I am asking myself and anybody who might know, is does the spark have something in it that cannot be replaced?

And, if it is true that the spark itself is very special, is the neon capable of giving that something?

Thanks for this drawing and calculations. It is all going in. (It is going into a big empty cavern at the moment. ;D )

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 19, 2009, 05:55:54 PM

spark gaps inter act with in the enviroment .. as i see it same with reeds and realys comuntators brushes .. that kind of thing neon light bulb flash from a camera....

but there simple and i am a fan .. but

when we look at a vacume tube same sort of deal we know how well they work ... lol

ist .. speed is key and they deliver .. ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 19, 2009, 07:08:44 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 19, 2009, 05:23:23 PM

The question I am asking myself and anybody who might know, is does the spark have something in it that cannot be replaced?

And, if it is true that the spark itself is very special, is the neon capable of giving that something?

Jeanna

In my opinion the thing that a spark gap gives a circuit that may be difficult to create in other ways is that it provides a very fast rate of change no matter what frequency it runs at .
Tesla kept working on ways to make that rate of change even faster ......... magnetic quenching was one the ways he did this .

Would a neon work in a similar way ?........ Probably .........up to a point .
I do not know if the Neon gas slows down the rate of change or not .
It might be interesting to try seeing if Neo magnets affect the circuit any .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 19, 2009, 08:06:48 PM

@ jranna

Quote from: jeanna on July 19, 2009, 05:23:23 PM
I am under the impression that a spark was the only really practical way to set up an oscillation in tesla's time.

As far as I know that is correct. Oscillators were not really possible until the invention of the triode vacuum tube. Before that the only way to easily generate RF was using sparks. The first transatlantic radios used sparks to generate the RF.

There is nothing special about spark gaps except that they are easier to make than the alternatives.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 19, 2009, 09:05:11 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 19, 2009, 08:06:48 PM
...
There is nothing special about spark gaps except that they are easier to make than the alternatives.

Xee2,
I am really glad to hear this.
Now, please let me ask you a detail.
You just warned that the neon spark idea could make really high voltage and be careful.
So, this made your proposed circuit sound like one that could make a higher potential than what I am normally getting there from the secondary.

I suspect it was the cap that could do this for 2 reasons. One, Tesla used a dual secondary wire to start the motors. He used the secondary wire as usual, but then he had the other wire fitted with a series connected cap. They both went to the same place as I recall, but the cap put the one side a little later in phase and gave a significant pop added to the other secondary wire.
Now, they were both still in AC or pulsed dc mode, but there was a real push once per full cycle.

Now, for the other reason: I blew a led yesterday when I was adding a cap to an inductor. It was not in series. It was more like your drawing from today.

This is all very interesting .

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on July 19, 2009, 09:07:45 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on July 19, 2009, 09:41:27 AM
i cant help it... im just full of ideas ... ;D
...
jesus maybe you could employ your feed back method to this unit and make it self chargeing ... ;) and perpetual ...
...
ist!

@innovation

I know you are a genius and also that there is nobody on this forum that winds a toroid faster than you, but it is very difficult to understand what you want to teach us, because of the criptic way of explaining it.

I do admire your way of surviving.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 19, 2009, 10:20:40 PM

like a tesla switch flip batteries to keep the ringg running wile you get your out put for free..

i have been working on a cell fone battery i drain some off like with an led in a normal way and im rechargeing the cell fone battery from the aa when i charge the cell fone and burn the led in the normal way at the same time my battery voltage drops ever so slowly like .001v ever min or so .. when i disconnect the recharge and burn the led it drops much faster this is from a collector through a full wave bridge ..

the little ring apears to recharge the cell fone battery easly but it is not instant recharge .. its a 3.7 v lithium ion 1100mah plus i never droped it below 3.705 v b4 but in 15 min or so its back up to 3.740

but im now useing a fully charged aa on the input and the ring is makeing noise

im just learning like everyone but i started backward with the tpu first to learn all about the kick ..

ist

i think i tuned into verry close to a ballance point .. im burning a super bright blue led from the cell fone battery and im now only dropping .001v every 15 min so i dont know what the led consumes but .. it is useing power as it was designed to this is not by the kick lighting like the jt .. this is after recovery in a battery from a collector winding .. just npn now this ring lights a neon no problem but they seem to charge at close to the same rate .. as many of my other rings that dont lite neons ..

now its getting intresting when i put the led back on the battery .. insted of droping this time wile burning the led it is actually really slowly RECHARGEING STILL wile burning the led normally .. i have gone up .002 v in sted of droped ... :D

now thats wild .. sure it is takeing engery from the aa but big deal ... i bet it aint much compaired to 3.7v at even 20 ma to power the led i dont know how much they use .. in all other tests it apeared to drop in voltage .. now its climbing ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 20, 2009, 01:34:55 AM

@ jeanna and all

Neon as spark gap idea does not seem good.

I am not sure if there is a way to use the neon as a spark gap in any practical way since it will only work as a spark gap if the supply current is very small.

The problem is that the neon does not discharge the capacitor when it turns on because it will not conduct a high current. So unless there is less current coming into capacitor than the neon is conducting when it is on, the capacitor will not discharge.

This should have been obvious to me, but I have used surge protectors in circuits that were basically just neon bulbs but that conducted very high currents. It is obvious now the surge protectors had some special design to conduct the high current. This idea may work if the proper surge protectors can be found.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 20, 2009, 01:55:54 AM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on July 19, 2009, 09:05:11 PM
You just warned that the neon spark idea could make really high voltage and be careful.
So, this made your proposed circuit sound like one that could make a higher potential than what I am normally getting there from the secondary.

It takes over 100 volts to turn on neon bulb. At very small currents this is not deadly. But when a capacitor is charged to 100 volts it can deliver 100 volts at very high currents and these can be dangerous. That is why I said only use small capacitors.

When a transformer is added to the circuit thousands of volts can be created. If the current is high enough this can be very dangerous. This is basically a Tesla coil circuit and so it will generate high voltages like Tesla coils do.

This is how Tesla generated his high voltages. He knew how to do that safely, but not everyone has his knowledge. That is why I thought the neon was a good idea. Since much of what Tesla did with spark gaps can be done with very small (thus safer) currents using the neon instead of a regular spark gap. However, I did not realize how small the currents had to be when using a neon as a spark gap.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 20, 2009, 02:03:24 AM

@all

I tried the rodin coil jt , i had to do it twice to get it , now first observation i connect a diode bride between the E and C to see the voltage with a old battery a got around 25 volt , now i tried a 3v battery , the meter went crazy , showing -180v on the 200 division and -1800v on the 1000 volts range , but its not right it looked like the meter was going nuts flashing .

I include the drawing i used for making it , i found it easier to concentrate on the wiring angle to find it proper location. This a basically 12 turn bi-fillar.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on July 20, 2009, 08:39:40 AM

@all

I already started to explain how I did the self running pulse motor.
My last post is here:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6362.msg192400#new

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 20, 2009, 09:02:47 AM

how is the external magnetic feild created from the coil mk1 ?

?

week ? strong ? .. rotating ... ? eather spinner ? lol

if you can get it spinning try some inductors or relay coils ... to grab a bit .... i dont think you want to tap the coil .. it is like your motor i bet a cupple CONE COILS MIGHT TAP IT WELL ..

never wound 1 yet i do have all the materials for months ... tho

ist! some day ..

btw i just mesured the led im burning off the cell fone battery .. it is useing 3.7v at 32 mili amp ...

and my battery voltage is not dropping .. it moves up and back down ... lowest it has gone down was to 3.726 highest it has gone up to was 3.733 wile supplying 3.7v at 32 mili amp draw ...

looks like my coil is keeping the battery topped up i never did mesure the used amount of power ..

it make this irrating sound tho .... im sure i would get better results with a high freq diode bridge in place of the db107

now that i have this setup what if i replaced my led that is drawing ... 32 mili amp at 3.7v with a second phase step up jt ... ;D ;)

hummmmm

ill tidy up this set up and take a picture as i see this to be IMPORTANT ..... ;D

after bout an hour to 1.5 hours the sqeeling stopped ... on my coil the cell fone battery voltage had droped and not recovered down to 3.723 and holding ... so im guessing i sucked some juice from my aa yes it uses some power as nothing is free ... but the returned engery has burnt a led as normal and a aa alone can not do and it does not drop fast ... and with out the charger running .. the battery voltage drops 1000 times faster ... lol i can watch it drop on the meter

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on July 20, 2009, 11:47:14 AM

@all

I did not posted the how to build the circuit for a self running pulse motor photos here because it is not a joule thief.

I will thank anyone that has helped me with the knowledge to attain my goal.

I have accomplished my goal. My pulse motor is self running with a battery from 1.5v to 9v.

Details here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6362.msg192429#msg192429

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 20, 2009, 12:49:29 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on July 20, 2009, 02:03:24 AM
@all

I tried the rodin coil jt , i had to do it twice to get it , now first observation i connect a diode bride between the E and C to see the voltage with a old battery a got around 25 volt , now i tried a 3v battery , the meter went crazy , showing -180v on the 200 division and -1800v on the 1000 volts range , but its not right it looked like the meter was going nuts flashing .

I include the drawing i used for making it , i found it easier to concentrate on the wiring angle to find it proper location. This a basically 12 turn bi-fillar.

Did anyone else notice how similar this coil is to the one IST posted on reply 8363?
The biggest difference is the Rodin coil is untwisted ....... IST used a twisted pair.
The number of wraps is different too ........the Rodin is 4 laps of 3 wraps each lap.
IST used 3 laps of 5 wraps each .

How much different is the Rodin coil from a standard coil?
Can anyone verify that the field in it rotates ?

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 20, 2009, 12:58:23 PM

here is a picture of the setup i have been on about ...

ist

so it apears i have drained too much engery from my aa battery for it to top it back up this time ... i bet i need a 3.6v on the input ... with a voltage devider to drop it to 1.5 or 1.2 v constant and then recharge it .. ;D ;)

it is still rechargeing but at a really slow rate ... so there is a working voltage level we dont want it to drop below ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 20, 2009, 05:17:00 PM

i just hate to hijack the thred but i managed to charge aaa super fast ;D ;D ;D ;D

like 2 min or less ... ;D

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on July 20, 2009, 07:15:15 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on July 20, 2009, 05:17:00 PM
i just hate to hijack the thred but i managed to charge aaa super fast ;D ;D ;D ;D

like 2 min or less ... ;D

ist!

That is really good work IST!!!!!!!!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 20, 2009, 08:41:39 PM

Jesus:

Congratulations on your circuit! Nice going. You worked hard on it that is for sure.

@ IST:

Very nice work also.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on July 20, 2009, 10:02:41 PM

I'm having trouble getting even the most basic crystal oscillator to work. I was wondering if anyone could benefit me with a circuit diagram for one ( something someone has gotten to work with a JTC ).

Generally speaking, the equivalent circuit for a crystal is a capacitor in parallel with an inductor, resistor and capacitor.

...this setup resembles the joule thief in some ways already; it's really only a replacement for one of the coils on the toroid.

Allow me to explify what would be the ideal setup: As you've witnessed lately, the number of turns on a pickup coil dictates, rationally, the voltage gained relative to the input voltage, if this can be switched at any given variably adjustable speed with an equivalence of a crystal circuit and not actually a crystal, then the maximum output can be achieved with a simplified toroid windings ( limited to a main and a secondary ) while the frequency is controlled in an isolated way..

The equivalence of a crystal circuit should be easy enough to replicate, but I'm lacking knowledge of the components. ( and I'm going mad at that ).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 20, 2009, 10:36:15 PM

@jadaro

I hope this will help.

Also this http://www.elecfree.com/electronic/simple-quartz-crystal-test-with-meter/

http://ok1ike.c-a-v.com/soubory/tipy/FET%20QUARTZ%20CRYSTAL%20OSCILLATOR.JPG

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 20, 2009, 11:22:18 PM

@ adaro2600

Quote from: jadaro2600 on July 20, 2009, 10:02:41 PM
I'm having trouble getting even the most basic crystal oscillator to work. I was wondering if anyone could benefit me with a circuit diagram for one ( something someone has gotten to work with a JTC ).

I would recommend this circuit from http://www.z80.info/uexosc.htm
I have used similar circuits and they always worked for me. But, I never used one with a JT. Remember to keep your leads short.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on July 20, 2009, 11:33:33 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on July 20, 2009, 08:41:39 PM
Jesus:

Congratulations on your circuit! Nice going. You worked hard on it that is for sure.

@ IST:

Very nice work also.

Bill

Thank you @pirate !

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 20, 2009, 11:45:29 PM

i hooked up my unit to a big cap 12 dc 500k uf .. it charges it fast tooo ;D

i will make a drawing of the circuit .. i did the tesla 1 wire neon trick to it too

i have almost recharged all my nicads ... lol

there is the coil a neon a bridge a cap and a diode in this unit it is wayyy off my scope in speed

it will charge a 200v 6.8 uf cap in less than 2 second and then the noeo lights neon is on the ac side of the bridge

ist

yes i did recharge 4 aaa 200mah at 6v from the big cap from a aa and my coil infact it also powered the 2 leds on the cap and the digital voltage read out and charge the cap and the 4 1.2 v batteries .. :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 21, 2009, 05:44:21 AM

@IST

Quote from: innovation_station on July 18, 2009, 11:53:25 AM
@ jim nice cartoon ... ;D of course it is only rocks falling out my pockets ... :) this guy got no change to put in them ... not yet anyhow... :)

You are more than welcome, my pleasure william.
BTW, did anyone see I drew in Stefan, (wally) he he, I did, he is hanging around if you get the drift lol

@all,
I have been over at Bills EB / EC forum for a while, and helping Wilby with another thing, wow, the Joule Thief has taken off, gotta play catch again, you know what, playing catch up is going to be a new phrase around the forums I think, well at least we all here know what it means. lol. :D

For those who might not know, the last 3 days, I have very dimmly lit a white LED from my "round" horozontal EB / EC setup, (I posted all those photos here how I made it way back).

I also discovered one thing else, (a KEY) using 1N4004 diodes, seems to choke the flow of the energy, when I swapped them for 1N4007 diodes, then I got success. I also discovered I had berried the EB / EC setup upside down, so I will rectify this another day, as I don't want to upset my current experiment.
It appears the 1N4007s switch much faster, so allowing more energy to pass before blocking.

It won't be long before I connect one of my Joule Thiefs up to this and see if it will work.

Excellent work everyone.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 21, 2009, 12:29:23 PM

Jim:

Great job on the earth energy receiver lighting an led. I am very confident that if you have the juice to light an led, even to less than full brightness, you can power a JT from that and then run multiple leds from your JT.

@ Jeanna:

Thank you for your tip on how to change my "Theme" here at OU. I am now back to the blue/gray and indeed, it does load the pages much faster. I saw you post this over on Jesus's topic. A lot less for the computer to load and with Firefox, it is superfast. Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 21, 2009, 01:06:58 PM

i built a new coil just like the last one im working with 12 turn 120 turn picup

but i will wind a reverse picup on it too

see if i get the same voltage in the oppisite at the same time i expect i will but

i must built it to KNOW 4 SURE.. ;D

ist!

almost done .. ill add a pic if it is worth the efford..

that proved to be useless... lol

max was like 30 v hummmm

but useing a diffrent cap on this coil i was able to get 260v dc it is a constant 260 v as soon as i short it its back 260v ..

well in playing areound yesterday i blew up a few diodes from useing a big cap not cuz i had big current flow ... but the kool part was it makes a darn nice regulating spark gap :D ;D

i made a video of it but i dont think ill post it ... my cap held at around 37 vdc and discharged through the blowen diode... sure was neat

;D

i must say i just watched the video from yesterday lol DAMMMM now i got to build this tooooooo

ERRRRRR

if you all knew how many coils i have wound lol it would blow your mind.. btw my gold mines got here FINALLY! ;D

ill have to tune it firtst... maybe MK1 would be kind enough to do it publically ... or just explain it 1 more time i will do it make a video and take pictures and post it here as i need to do it agin ...for the gold mine cores .. then thy can just buy the gold mines and wind any one could do it ... then ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 21, 2009, 05:22:16 PM

@ist

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.4770

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 21, 2009, 05:49:18 PM

thanks mk1 i do know how to tune them ..

i was just gonna do it public 1 more time for the GOLD MINES ...

7 turn primaries mk2 config im getting 2.61 v / turn ..

now i will un wind 1 turn at a time on my primary

im useing a 5 k pot i tuned it to the highest spikes on my scope from the place where the led goes on the normal jt

im getting like 70v there bouts on the jt flyback .. wich i DO NOT TAP as i previsoully explaind why ..

but for the first crack at a gold mine i thought the results were ok ..

ist

i droped 1 turn down to 6 x 6 and my volts / turn on my pick up coil went up to 4.29 v

5 x 5 im up to 4.77 v/turn on my picup coil wich is 1 turn btw

4 x 4 im up to 5.21v/ turn

3 x 3 6v/turn

here are 2 pictures .. 1 turn tuneing the toroide..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 21, 2009, 08:10:53 PM

so now that i found a good tuneing of the gold mines ...

anyone wanna advance this unit yet .... i hope your not tripping on the kick still

i have like 35 of thease ... i had to give half of them away

so be it i discontinued all sales from my page ... ;D

i dont like to bothered by those that cant play around a bit it only shows how lazzy they are .....

LOL

ooo well

any how mk1 npn pnp up next i bet it dubbles the ou put from the mkhv coil ... probally allow bi dirrectonal winding ... 3 turn primaries seam to work well for thease toroides ...

then lets get to 3 6 9 x the length :o :o :o lol

ist! but sheesh ... maybe thats 2 years away .... ;) still

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 21, 2009, 08:29:58 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on July 21, 2009, 05:49:18 PM

5 x 5 im up to 4.77 v/turn on my picup coil wich is 1 turn btw

4 x 4 im up to 5.21v/ turn

3 x 3 6v/turn

here are 2 pictures .. 1 turn tuneing the toroide..

Ist,
3 x 3 is not divided evenly,
so the rest of the information is...

Is that done
2,1 and 2,1 or
2,1;and1,2
because it does make a difference.

we all thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 21, 2009, 09:38:33 PM

i did not do 2 and 1 lol

i did the others tho and i did check inbetween like 3 and 4 if ya know what i mean like i checked when i was removeing turns and i found 3x3 to be good i would expect higher volts if i lowered the turns :)

that is the way it seams to be going ..

i will wind 1 of each ;D lol

ist!

has anyone wound a dubble primary on a core and rectified the the jt fly back to the second primary :D

hummmm ;)

i got tonnes more kick ass coil designs ... lol

im building a 3 turn 3 phase npn unit with a 4 turn picup i get 26 v ;D lol with 9 turns i get 60 v 12 turns i get 84 v

my battery is week too with a fresh one i expect my voltage to be higher ..

ps i will rotate the phase in winding .. should i dubble the length too lol ;) ;D 8)

then maybe tripple on the 3rd phase

i just wound 24 winds im getting 149 v :D

WHERES STPURE ...

still on for the gold mine challange 1000v 3 phase lol ;D

what ya all think bout the last pic lol :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 22, 2009, 12:15:27 AM

;D ;D
attaboy ist!

In fact I did that on a stubblefield generator.
It was so crazy. I got the same higher voltage from the little one. Now, where are those notes?

Remember to let us know what happens with it. I may be the only other person in the world who thought to do this, so I will pay attention to the result!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 22, 2009, 12:21:04 PM

i built a new coil 3 x 60 turn

im getting about 250 v x 3 feeds .... from a really dead battery ...

im still tuneing it ...

ist

here is a pic this is the basic 3 phase npn or soon to be lol ;)

i had 60 turns putting out 285 vdc at one point still a week battery i will have to find a new one to get accurate readings..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 22, 2009, 02:20:23 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on July 22, 2009, 12:21:04 PM
i built a new coil 3 x 60 turn

im getting about 250 v x 3 feeds ....

i had 60 turns putting out 285 vdc at one point still a week battery i will have to find a new one to get accurate readings..

Is this on a goldmine?
I am impressed.

Please show the 3 60wires connected just as clearly as these first 2 pics when you have done it. This is a beautiful beginning.

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 22, 2009, 02:38:36 PM

yes jeanna its a GOLD MINE ALRIGHT ... ;D

im still building the unit

i have like 100 advancements to it yet :D

here a few more pics you all will love ... lol

here is your

2 FREQ 3 PHASE NPN TUNED RECTIFIED AND CAPPED LOL

thats the idea anyhow 1" GOLDMINE 5 FOR A BUCK :)

IST

sorry to tie up the thred space but i thought you all wouldnt mind :)

the last picture shows you my high speed charger ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 22, 2009, 02:57:26 PM

UM,
So is it 3 primaries and 3 secondaries?

If that is so, then are you connecting the 3 primaries to individual transistors?

I have a goldmine that gave me a poor response (I have 4 like that). Its secondary is wound all around the core. I might try a primary like the one you are making. I will see if that primary can make an improvement in the secondary output on this 5/$1 goldmine. The 1 inch OD part is nice.

Thanks ist.
Keep posting with explanations. Your ideas are good, and the pics just need a little explanation. Today is helpful.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 22, 2009, 03:24:54 PM

yes jeanna

all are alone units ... all collectors will get the ringging spikes from all 3 phases .. and they remain on less time than the original jt ...

it will operate on 3 pulses comeing from this 1.50 $ dollar chaser powered by 3 button cells wich i will change as i some how find the dow for super caps ..

none the less concept is still the same ... i will also on the next unit add a collector atop the hole thing ..

i will get a wave much like my 5555 coil ou put except it will be 280v + rectified in 3 caps the neons are not needed but work well for indicator lights ... i can constantally short thease caps and i get a REAL NICE SPARK ;D

the primary jt are rotated by 3rd's and hooked up to the 3 leds from the chaser they will then power the idependent jt's 123 123 123

l8r

william

to improve this unit i will drop the turns to 1 turn jt's phased the same .. 8) :o

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 22, 2009, 03:30:14 PM

Oh yes,
I forgot about the chaser. I was ignoring the round thing since I couldn't make sense of it!

Is it the chaser that is making the timing happen?

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 22, 2009, 04:35:45 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 22, 2009, 03:30:14 PM
Oh yes,
I forgot about the chaser. I was ignoring the round thing since I couldn't make sense of it!

Is it the chaser that is making the timing happen?

thanks,

jeanna

the chaser controlls the rotation but it is the jt that makes the close to resonant timeing of the spikes ... i could tap the leds on the chaser for recovery to recharge the source ..

but i do prefer not to ... altho i may have to to stop from blowing leds when the ringgging colpase comes back

i will finish a simple fast nicad charger first .. as it is only 3 of those in 1

ist!

got my coffee so im a good 2 go ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Neptune01 on July 22, 2009, 05:09:20 PM

I need some help and advice since I am unable to get this working.
Could someone please verify and correct me where I am wrong.

Thanks
J

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 22, 2009, 05:29:02 PM

Quote from: Neptune01 on July 22, 2009, 05:09:20 PM
I need some help and advice since I am unable to get this working.
Could someone please verify and correct me where I am wrong.

Thanks
J

@neptune

Welcome , make sure that the two wire going to the positive pole of the battery , are wound in opposite direction from each other , or simply reversing one of the coil connection.

I do not know this transistor , but it should work anyway , but try 3v to see if the circuit is working.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 22, 2009, 05:37:07 PM

@ All:

Little off-topic but I know most of us here love LED's so check out this video from about 2 years ago:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd99gyE4jCk&feature=rec-HM-r2

Light emitting cloth, Lumalive form Phillips. This video was from about 2 years ago and I have never seen nor heard of this stuff. Has anyone? This would be great for motorcycle and bicycle safety...and little kids, and joggers, etc.

Whatever they power it with we can make better by using the JT circuits I am sure.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 22, 2009, 06:03:02 PM

here is my charger ..

out put is better when soldered on the board

yep thats 312 vdc in my cap .... :D

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 22, 2009, 06:11:34 PM

@ Neptune01

Quote from: Neptune01 on July 22, 2009, 05:09:20 PM
I need some help and advice since I am unable to get this working.
Could someone please verify and correct me where I am wrong.

Thanks
J

You should reverse your diode. If it still does not work reverse the leads on one of the windings. Use the 1K resistor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 22, 2009, 06:17:06 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on July 22, 2009, 05:37:07 PM
@ All:

Little off-topic but I know most of us here love LED's so check out this video from about 2 years ago:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd99gyE4jCk&feature=rec-HM-r2

Light emitting cloth, Lumalive form Phillips. This video was from about 2 years ago and I have never seen nor heard of this stuff. Has anyone? This would be great for motorcycle and bicycle safety...and little kids, and joggers, etc.

Whatever they power it with we can make better by using the JT circuits I am sure.

Bill

i haven't seen that. that's awesome. i bet you could run it off ambient waves. would make a great emergency signal for hikers, campers, climbers, etc. a 4x8 sheet that said help.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 22, 2009, 06:25:44 PM

Quote from: Neptune01 on July 22, 2009, 05:09:20 PM
I need some help and advice since I am unable to get this working.
Could someone please verify and correct me where I am wrong.

Thanks
J

can you put a pic on here so we can see?
I agree for the first troubleshooting reverse the led.
Double check that the bifilar is connected right. You need to connect the end of one to the beginning of the other for this to work.
Have you watched the makezine video on youtube?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTAqGKt64WM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTAqGKt64WM)
If you have not yet, I recommend watching that 2 or 3 times then dive in.

Is that an american transistor?
I think it is not. That means the placement of the base and collector/emitter pins are in different spots.

BTW, welcome to the joule thief forum! ;)

jeanna

edit
I just put this on the downloads section. 2MB
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=339 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=339)
It is a must see!
You can even hear my voice. I got pretty excited, you'll see why!

j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 22, 2009, 07:19:46 PM

@ people

Here is what I have been working on lately. I'm getting very interesting results on sinleg turn tap windings. 169vdc on 10 turns on the b/c coils and 8 on the pickup. I was also using leds which showed interesting stuff happening. Yes the LEDS are coming off the b/c's. not sure if anyone has done this but it's pretty cool. I divided the pickups so that I could put that gain back into the circuit....nice increase. It will light a neon too.

This is using 1.5vdc@.15a but goes up or down depending on what I play with. oh yeah...really low resistance somewhere between 0-30ohms.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on July 22, 2009, 09:18:52 PM

@stprue

That looks great. Now I must know what type of camera do you have?

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 22, 2009, 09:51:21 PM

Quote from: stprue on July 22, 2009, 07:19:46 PM
@ people

Here is what I have been working on lately. I'm getting very interesting results on sinleg turn tap windings. 169vdc on 10 turns on the b/c coils and 8 on the pickup. I was also using leds which showed interesting stuff happening. Yes the LEDS are coming off the b/c's. not sure if anyone has done this but it's pretty cool. I divided the pickups so that I could put that gain back into the circuit....nice increase. It will light a neon too.

This is using 1.5vdc@.15a but goes up or down depending on what I play with. oh yeah...really low resistance somewhere between 0-30ohms.

Hmm,
You ought to be showing us the results of a stepdown transformer.

?

I know you can get surprising results from a single turn pickup/secondary, but 169v is stretching my sense of reality.
Not if you had even 40 turns, but one turn secondary and 10 turn collector/10turnBase primary?

What do you think is happening?

Anything could be happening today. I found some radiant energy from a joule thief, so why not 169v on a single turn secondary?

pretty cool.

jeanna

edit:
Oh, I see 8v on the pickup
169v on the C-B
So, is that transistor action?
Are you reading this across the C and B?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on July 22, 2009, 09:55:36 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on July 16, 2009, 06:31:11 PM
i just thought i would inform the public ...

b4 someone tryes to rip my work off... that im doing ...

cuz im poor ...

im makeing POWER POINT demos FOR THE ELECTRIC CAR INDSTRY .. FOR A POWER SUPPLY ...

as well as i have ideas i also have dreams of 1 day makeing it in this world ...

so i must stand back and SAY THANK YOU TO STEPHAN AND EVERYONE INVOLVED ON OVERUNITY ...

this site documents time and date of ORIGINAL IDEAS ... ;) ;D

portection for the poor ones out there ... ;D

of course when i perfect my design .. THOSE THAT HELPED ME I WILL IN RETURN HELP THEM ...

PEACE ...

BUILD THE LAST UNIT PROVE IT WRONG ... TOO AGIN YOU CAN NOT!

WILLIAM

btw theres where your 1/4 wave length fits ... tapping the harmonics ? might that be ?

i have seen many bands on my scope ... some i assume are voltage and some are maybe amparage nodes ..

i just got done drawing up my 6 phase 2 freq pnp npn in sync ring ..... wow i dont even know what to call the darn thing ...

lol

so there will actually be 12 jt coils as primaries .. 3 pnp and 3 npn per phase all wound same dirrection ... like the 5555 coil

i will likely use 5 turn / per only 1 lap ... as my cores work well with 5 turns ...

it is a 1.5 k core .. grey feroite 5 5/8 "

the goal of this unit is dc output .. to a BATCAP.... lol

of course ill only build it from a few aaa batteries for now till i have a BUNCH OF ENGINEERS ..

i like to play safe ...

i wound a simple unit to show half of my advanced unit i just spoke of ...

first picture is half of my first phase .. this is npn ...

second picture is npn pnp 1 phase ... i will dubble this for 2 phases .. but im out of room on this core ... lol

i did this to show how my simple advanced units will operate .. sure i can do this in the mk2 winding unit ... lol i already have it drawen in pencil .. ;D

hows that for retarted lol 48 jt wires ends ... hummm 12 transistors 2 3 led chasers ..

you can see plainly how simple it is ... :o

key toroide tuneing .. wire length mass to mass tuneing phaseing flip flop ... bla bla .. lots too it but

seams damm simple to me ... ;) :D

Hi Ist and Everyone . I have not logged on in a while . I got My Digital storage scope and have not even unpacked it yet in a week :( . I have been experimenting thought in between daddy stuff / beach vacation and whatnot . .
IST this Cncerns Open Source . I have a Patent Pending on one of My Toys i sell and the patent office says open source is not worth PooP !! Anyone anytime can steal your idea and patent it even though you might have posted the information years ago . ITs a FaCT !! So if you dont want it to be free and make money then dont post it cause some one with money will steal it and there is nothing you can do about it . I have a provisional patent on My E-Light and have already Bought the Eturinitylight.com Site . To patent somthing you have to have a patent search Done By a Lawyer . Its 399.00 Dollars Us .. Then if your not stepping on anyones Toes the provisional patent is issued for one year for 299.00 Us . Then you can make Deals with Manufactures to Build and Market your idea and Collect Royalties and still own the patent . Very Expensive !! But i just wanted you to Know that Open Source Is a place where ANYONE can take your idea and make it there own if they have the 700 bucks !! JFYI . My E-light is My own Circuit and I did not steal it . I plan To make My Daughter a Better Life when I get to old to move and see ;) . So far the patent search on a 1 volt three led self recharging spare battery using dead batteries is looking VEry good . No one has it . BUT if i didnt have a provisional patent Someone could steal just the Idea and patent it . They Don' t even Need a working Model . They can Patent the Idea and you will not make a Dime if they Do .

I have Learned a Lot From My Patent Lawyer .Take Heed My Information . No i wont take your ideas but someone could . Anyways . I Blew up My lab tonight with an hho drycell and a new torch tonight . What a Mess and LOUD!! . Im still shaking but ok . It just Blew potasium Hydrox all over everything including me and busted My Brand New Bubbler tank:( . damn . on a good note i have a Cool Jonnydavro selfrunner/SelfCharger that has 5 small coils on it all running leds and Jts and High Watt leds from 1 milliamp at 2.4 volts (ultracap) .. A Video Shortly when i can get the time to upload all the Vids i have been Recording . . I must catchup now as the last post i read was somewhere in the 600'' ahhh.. Peace and Sorry for My Common Off topic chatter but its the most read thread and My Friends are here .

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 22, 2009, 09:59:28 PM

nice work stpure 8)

i got a cheater way to get 1000v from a 1 " with out a high teck coil ... ;D

but what are you gonna do with it ... ? i would make a spark gap

from my 60 turn coil unit i should be able to easly get 1000v with out changeing 1 thing on the coil ;)

but dc volts in caps gets DANGEROUS !!

ist!

nice to see you gadget ...

im not worried ... lol i know how it works ... o yes ... o yes .... i cant waite till the rest of the world learns it lol lol ;D ;D

you must prove your work your own for the cats im gonna play with ... ;) i think i have done that lol

ist! ;)

i just tryed a 4.5v 2.1 ah alikline battery pack it apears to charge it nicely too but much slower ..
i have just recharged 10 aaa ni mh cells 300 mah and 1 3.6 40 mah 1 aa avalanche 1600mah 1.2v and now im chargeing the 4.5v bla bla

all of this from the same aa and it was not full when i started .. ;D 8) useing the charger unit showen above .. and its only a cheepie aa powering the ring

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 22, 2009, 10:12:26 PM

Hi Gadget,

I am glad to hear you are having a real summer.
Taking your daughter to the beach etc sounds like the best way to spend your time.

You deserve it.

I hope your car runs on water pretty soon.
Those trips to the beach can be a way to show it off to friends.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on July 22, 2009, 10:21:25 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 22, 2009, 10:12:26 PM
Hi Gadget,

I am glad to hear you are having a real summer.
Taking your daughter to the beach etc sounds like the best way to spend your time.

You deserve it.

I hope your car runs on water pretty soon.
Those trips to the beach can be a way to show it off to friends.

jeanna

Hi Jeanna ! I forgot to mention that it was JT powered(several paralleled ) HHo Cell . a Dry Cell . It works!! Google Dry Hho . Use Potisium Hydrox crystals in Distilled water . I know this isnt the hho thread (somewhere in here probably ) but a dry cell generators plates are less than a 16th of an inch apart and you can get High production from high volts and low milliamps . When i get it all put back together again i'll show you .

Gadget .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 22, 2009, 11:02:08 PM

ok guys what if we cascaded caps sure you GOT TO FILL THEM THE FIRST TIME ....

but so what!!

dont drain them ;D i dont see why we cant do it with any value cap .... only let the last cap drain keep 75 +% in reserve ... for push ...

any how ... i might build it i dont know yet ... :-\

ist

ps gadget it will work well for your cell..... ;) you are the king of gadgets... lol ;D

i have a bunch of thease batteries man do they ever charge quick .... like 20 seconds .. lol

what if i cascaded thease ;D lol

no limits how many hundred volts you want with some grunt ... lol ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 22, 2009, 11:14:10 PM

Hello Gadget,

Great to see you are here again, ;D I been really worried for you mate. :(

Hows the ears by now, do you still hear a distant echo of the blast? that HHO stuff sure is loud ha ha. ;D

I saw a video on UT, some fella, wanted to know what it really was like to hold his lighter at the end of the hose, before it went into the bubbler, k a r b o o m
He took out his shiny expensieve motor bike, bits everywhere, holes in his gaurage roof, I bet his missus was pleased he he.

Heres a tip, Ironhead who has his own forum here is just about the very best source of info on HHO, makes a fairly good read on a rainy day.

20 odd years ago, the wife ran the chariot after the oil switch cracked, it wasnt her fault. Anyway the engine seized after throwing a con rod, it was a write off, well I asked a few electronic chaps at work for a little help, we designed a fairly intricate circuit that would not alow the car to be driven if the oil sensor went on, we alowed just 30 seconds for a pullover and park, then the engine was switched off.
Went to patient it, back then it was hexic to do a search, then patient fees, and if you were lucky, you got the patient. I even had plug in modules for eng Temp and others, couldnt afford to proceed with it, but I got the prototype and a couple of PCBs I made, and circuit drawings, all put away in a safe place. ;D

What you want to do is well worth it if the money is there in the first place..

Good to see you back again Gadget.

hooroo
jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 22, 2009, 11:18:32 PM

@all

I see soon , a gas powered generator running on a hho cell from a joule thief on a earth battery ...

welcome back gadget !

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 22, 2009, 11:35:30 PM

@ Neptune01,
Welcome to the Joule Thief forum.

Quote from: Neptune01 on July 22, 2009, 05:09:20 PM
I need some help and advice since I am unable to get this working.
Could someone please verify and correct me where I am wrong.

Thanks
J

When you are first learning the Joule Thief, this circuit is about the best there is to learn on.

The resistor to the base of the transistor is generally 1k (1,000) ohms at a 1/4 watt (its quite small in size phisically) for the circuit you posted.

The 5 watter would fry the transistor base, too much current would be alowed to pass.

Try a white LED between the Collector and the emitter, it should light.
If it dosent light, turn it around.

Other transistors to try would be the 2N2222 or any general NPN type.

When you get some success, swap the BC548 for a 2N3055

Happy JT ing. ;D

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 22, 2009, 11:39:44 PM

@MK1

Quote from: Mk1 on July 22, 2009, 11:18:32 PM
@all

I see soon , a gas powered generator running on a hho cell from a joule thief on a earth battery ...

welcome back gadget !

Mark

Exactly, you got it in one there mark.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 23, 2009, 07:12:25 AM

Post removed :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 23, 2009, 09:38:32 AM

whats this ?

http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.kronjaeger.com/hv/hv/src/tv/tvcasc.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.kronjaeger.com/hv/hv/src/tv/&usg=__NweCu2Z0IJo71GfOtPLYBN1NEMY=&h=248&w=389&sz=13&hl=en&start=46&um=1&tbnid=uyKHjSpQbtp5JM:&tbnh=78&tbnw=123&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcap%2B%2B/%2Bdiode%2Bcascades%26ndsp%3D18%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26sa%3DN%26start%3D36%26um%3D1

ist

i have been rechargeing the 4.5v 2.1 ah battery my supply aa went dead over night .. so i plunked in another week battery this morn .. yep sure is rechargeing ... but this is a slow process

i started at 4.1v in it im up to 4.33 now but i bet that battery pack could power this charger quite a few days ....

so i tryed a a sealed battery 12vdc 3.6 ah and it was 7.1v when i hooked it up

i must say it charges MUCH faster than the alikline 4.5v 2.1ah its only been on like 5 min im already up to 7.41 vdc in my battery ...

ill let it charge while i build my next toy ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on July 23, 2009, 11:05:55 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on July 23, 2009, 09:38:32 AM
whats this ?

http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.kronjaeger.com/hv/hv/src/tv/tvcasc.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.kronjaeger.com/hv/hv/src/tv/&usg=__NweCu2Z0IJo71GfOtPLYBN1NEMY=&h=248&w=389&sz=13&hl=en&start=46&um=1&tbnid=uyKHjSpQbtp5JM:&tbnh=78&tbnw=123&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcap%2B%2B/%2Bdiode%2Bcascades%26ndsp%3D18%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26sa%3DN%26start%3D36%26um%3D1

ill let it charge while i build my next toy ...

@innovation_station
The "TV cascade" is often used in B&W/Color TV picture tudes to accelerate electrons to the back pane of glass to create the viewable screen you see in front of you. They're also found in X-Ray machines.

It's a Cockroft-Walton generator, e.g. voltage bridge.

They work on either a sine wave or square wave at the input. You can always play around with it to see what works best. There's math that goes with in to maximize output voltage, but input frequency should be resonant with component values for best results.

CAREFUL!!!!
These can be dangerous in high voltages(>3,000--4,000 VDC @ high amperage)

High voltage electronics has always been an interest of mine.

--Lee

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 23, 2009, 11:17:34 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on July 22, 2009, 10:21:25 PM
Hi Jeanna ! I forgot to mention that it was JT powered(several paralleled ) HHo Cell . a Dry Cell . It works!! Google Dry Hho . Use Potisium Hydrox crystals in Distilled water . I know this isnt the hho thread (somewhere in here probably ) but a dry cell generators plates are less than a 16th of an inch apart and you can get High production from high volts and low milliamps . When i get it all put back together again i'll show you .

Gadget .

Gadget

I had never heard of dry HHO

I am going to have to do some stuffying

If you post about your setup on another thread please PM me with a link.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 23, 2009, 11:28:28 AM

Quote from: altrez on July 22, 2009, 09:18:52 PM
@stprue

That looks great. Now I must know what type of camera do you have?

-Altrez

Thanks..it was taken with a 10mp Kodak easyshare...cheap!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 23, 2009, 11:31:15 AM

Quote from: jeanna on July 22, 2009, 09:51:21 PM
Hmm,
You ought to be showing us the results of a stepdown transformer.

?

I know you can get surprising results from a single turn pickup/secondary, but 169v is stretching my sense of reality.
Not if you had even 40 turns, but one turn secondary and 10 turn collector/10turnBase primary?

What do you think is happening?

Anything could be happening today. I found some radiant energy from a joule thief, so why not 169v on a single turn secondary?

pretty cool.

jeanna

edit:
Oh, I see 8v on the pickup
169v on the C-B
So, is that transistor action?
Are you reading this across the C and B?

I will try to take more pic's today because I really don't know what is happening. I will (pic) document through what I'm doing.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 23, 2009, 11:33:45 AM

thanks lee

for your input they are dangrous thats why i never played them too much i was gonna build a small one of like 30 batteries

my sealded battery is chargeing good .. same aa battery on the supply im at 8.7vdc in my 12v now

im happy bout the battery charger ring it works well

i have like tonnes more ring designs .. but dang i need to do something with the more than 100 ways i have of doing it ... plus

im sure i must be able to make some money from it some how ... im just a real crappy buisness guy i just throw crap togather

so if there is anyone with money to invest ... out there ... might be a good time to get ahold of me .....

b4 i release basic units #2 ;) :D ;D :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

bout sick of being so damm poor with THE MOST ADVANCED TECKS .... wile the world CRYS FOR FREE ENGERY and i trip on MANY OF THEM... just LAYING AROUND MY FLOOR....

next level unit ...

jt driveing AIR CORE TO IRON OR FEROITE RING ... BLA BLA MORE BASIC STUFF...

ist!

this is much like 1 of my videos i posted not long ago the inductor ring is posted here too

like i said i HAVE LONG AGO PROVEN MY TOYS WORK JUST FINE ... LOL

not only me ... lol i do have many pm's ;D ;) ;) ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 23, 2009, 11:39:31 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on July 22, 2009, 09:59:28 PM
nice work stpure 8)

i got a cheater way to get 1000v from a 1 " with out a high teck coil ... ;D

but what are you gonna do with it ... ? i would make a spark gap

from my 60 turn coil unit i should be able to easly get 1000v with out changeing 1 thing on the coil ;)

but dc volts in caps gets DANGEROUS !!

ist!

That is exactly what I want to do (spark gap)

This thing is charging electrolitic cap to 80v quick and 50v in like 2 seconds. It looked like it was around .270a too but it drains very quick.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 23, 2009, 11:46:39 AM

ok stpure my little charger AS IT IS SHOWEN WILL DRIVE A SPARK GAP AT 300+ V

the way it is ..

take the 300v from that through a diode to the next ...

BUT BE CARFUL I AM BUILDING 1 TODAY ..

IM GOING TO USE 275V 1UF CAPS ... 4 OF EM and a few diodes ..

charge it up dont let them drain .. use the diodes to stop the draining of the entire cascade ...

then flick the shit ... ;D

ist!

im now at 9.03vdc in my chargeing battery and my pushing cap is up to 10.41vdc same aa

think this is ou ... lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 23, 2009, 11:52:09 AM

@all

Speaking of spark gap you need 700 v for 1mm gap.

http://users.beotel.net/~gmarjanovic/gwmm.html

Also http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/mmcgen.htm

I posted that like 800 pages back , but now it should make more sense , this will work nicely with a toroid.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 23, 2009, 11:56:25 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on July 23, 2009, 11:52:09 AM
@all

Speaking of spark gap you need 700 v for 1mm gap.

http://users.beotel.net/~gmarjanovic/gwmm.html

Also http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/mmcgen.htm

I posted that like 800 pages back , but now it should make more sense , this will work nicely with a toroid.

Mark

no u dont ... lol lol

maybe your way ;D

ist!

i had a REAL NICE ONE GOING FROM 37VDC WITH SOME GRUNT FROM A BIG CAP AND MY TINY RING ....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 23, 2009, 12:24:47 PM

Quote from: stprue on July 23, 2009, 11:31:15 AM
I will try to take more pic's today... I will (pic) document through what I'm doing.

Oh good.
If you can straighten out some of those wires it would help me see what connects to where.
I can't do what I am asking you to do, but I am asking anyway. ;)

thank you,
nice work,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 23, 2009, 12:49:03 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 23, 2009, 12:24:47 PM
Oh good.
If you can straighten out some of those wires it would help me see what connects to where.
I can't do what I am asking you to do, but I am asking anyway. ;)

thank you,
nice work,

jeanna

Trust me...there is too much stuff going on in this build for me too. I have no alligator clip wires left but I'm going to buy some more next week.

I also want to try 26gage wire. If I can make the winds/coils smaller then I can fit lots and feed a lot back through the circute....more bridges, wires, caps and I need to find the right caps too.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 23, 2009, 12:51:09 PM

i haven't really wanted to touch this, but i think i am going to give it a shot. we have a good group here with respect to discussion (pun intended). so here it goes...

lot of talk lately of tesla, spark gaps, etc.
in a spark gap i see light and heat (among other things). in this case i think, light is what we want, let's ignore the heat for the moment ;)
is the intent to replace the light of the led with the light of the spark gap?

now to the real core of my questions and this might be opening a can of worms, if so my apologies in advance.
does a spark gap waste or entrain?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 23, 2009, 12:56:19 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on July 23, 2009, 11:52:09 AM
@all

Speaking of spark gap you need 700 v for 1mm gap.

http://users.beotel.net/~gmarjanovic/gwmm.html

Also http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/mmcgen.htm

I posted that like 800 pages back , but now it should make more sense , this will work nicely with a toroid.

Mark

Mark have you tried the JNL stuff on this link?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 23, 2009, 01:06:46 PM

@ stpure..

im useing 100nf 250v non polorized caps ... ill take a cupple REAL CLEAR PICTURES OF MY NEW OLD UNIT ..

it is my 3 turn 3 phase 2 freq unit im useing db107 x3 60 turns goldmine unit and 3 100nf 250v caps then 3 4004 diodes .. then it can go to the cascades ..

cold sounds safer .. ;)

william

ill add a pic once it is finished just 1 freq and npn for now i dont want to confuse anyone ...

just thought i would update on my chargeing of the 12 v battery im up to 9.68vdc in my battery

and it seams my meter on the cap was low thats the only reason i could see a back up of power .. as i changed the battery in the volt meter it now reads the same as the other one ... it has not drained much power from the aa at all as im still reading when i disconnect the chargeing battery .. 277.2 vdc ...

it would read 20 volts or 40 there bouts if it was compleatly dead the driveing battery

got me lots of push left in the battery .. yet..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 23, 2009, 01:13:00 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on July 23, 2009, 01:06:46 PM
@ stpure..

im useing 100nf 250v non polorized caps ... ill take a cupple REAL CLEAR PICTURES OF MY NEW OLD UNIT ..

it is my 3 turn 3 phase 2 freq unit im useing db107 x3 60 turns goldmine unit and 3 100nf 250v caps then 3 4004 diodes .. then it can go to the cascades ..

cold sounds safer .. ;)

william

ill add a pic once it is finished just 1 freq and npn for now i dont want to confuse anyone ...

Cool! can't wait to see the pic. My last test used a mish-mash of caps but there must be some science to it because the results improved. Instead of regular diodes I used led..showed some skin effect too. I think...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 23, 2009, 02:05:04 PM

here is my charger board ..

enjoy

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Neptune01 on July 23, 2009, 02:27:28 PM

I would like to say thanks to Mark, Xee2, Jeanna and Jim, for all your helpful advice and feedback.

Ok, I did some changes but still have no luck. I have taken a photo of the basic circuit.

Observations:
If I connect 2 x 1,5V Batteries to the circuit the LED lights up.

Any ideas?

Thanks
Johan

PS: I know the connections to the battery are not connected on the photo. Itâ€™s because they just off screen. The batteries are now in my camera.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 23, 2009, 02:36:10 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on July 23, 2009, 02:05:04 PM
here is my charger board ..

enjoy

ist!

Great work IST....very clean and finished look to it!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 23, 2009, 02:40:28 PM

Quote from: Neptune01 on July 23, 2009, 02:27:28 PM
I would like to say thanks to Mark, Xee2, Jeanna and Jim, for all your helpful advice and feedback.

Ok, I did some changes but still have no luck. I have taken a photo of the basic circuit.

Observations:
If I connect 2 x 1,5V Batteries to the circuit the LED lights up.

Any ideas?

Thanks
Johan

PS: I know the connections to the battery are not connected on the photo. Itâ€™s because they just off screen. The batteries are now in my camera.

Hello and welcome Johan. I would reccomend using a 500 or even 250 Ohm resister also try a different transistor like a 2222 or a 39eqivilant ;)

Good luck!

P.S. What type of ferrite did you use?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 23, 2009, 02:43:09 PM

Quote from: Neptune01 on July 23, 2009, 02:27:28 PM
I would like to say thanks to Mark, Xee2, Jeanna and Jim, for all your helpful advice and feedback.

Ok, I did some changes but still have no luck. I have taken a photo of the basic circuit.

Observations:
If I connect 2 x 1,5V Batteries to the circuit the LED lights up.

Any ideas?

Thanks
Johan

PS: I know the connections to the battery are not connected on the photo. Itâ€™s because they just off screen. The batteries are now in my camera.

nice work, clean build.
looks like your battery polarity is backwards. the positive of the battery goes to the 2 wires, negative of battery goes to junction of transistor emitter and led cathode.

edit: your led is backwards also. the cathode(-) of the led goes to the emitter of the transistor and the anode(+) goes to the collector.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 23, 2009, 02:47:38 PM

@ Neptune01

Quote from: Neptune01 on July 23, 2009, 02:27:28 PM
Any ideas?

I think that using a lower value resistor was a good suggestion. Your diagram still has the LED diode connections reversed. And most of the rest of the circuit is wrong. Please check some of the references given to see how it should be wired.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 23, 2009, 03:04:50 PM

@ Neptune01

Your coils should be wired as in following (ignore extra coil and tube) and in your case both coils have same number of turns.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Neptune01 on July 23, 2009, 03:10:47 PM

Gotcha!!
Good news is that I got my first JT working!
I had a look at this image and decided to reverse the wires connecting o the battery and to swap the LED.

Thanks to ALL!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 23, 2009, 03:32:32 PM

BRAVO Neptune1 !

Enjoy your new joule thief.
If you want to take the next step, make one using only a secondary as I described yesterday. Then you will have two gems.
1 one, for draining the old duracells
2- one, for use making leds light up with unbelievably little amounts of energy.

Either way, congratulations.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on July 23, 2009, 03:59:05 PM

Wouldn't it be more wise to use a JFET with this circuit?

I've appended an image of the most current version of my circuit ..it's the resistor less version - inductive only. I was thinking that a FET might be better than a BJT.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 23, 2009, 04:05:29 PM

im happy you got it to work neptune !!

i wish all were a quick as you were ..

practice makes perfect .. i herd that b4 lol

thanks stpure it took a few min to build it

ill finish it off today and test it i did test that coil and output was 280v per 60 turn coil ..

my 12 v is up to 10.22v from the same aa battery ;D

ist

and i still have 277.1 volt on my cap ;) 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 23, 2009, 04:39:10 PM

@ Wilby:

I'll take a shot at your question. I think the spark gap by itself does waste energy as you said...both heat and light and this costs. However, when used as a switching device as is being done by Kapandze, and some others, to set up a resonance, it then becomes part of the energy amplification device and is no longer wasteful. Not really different than the way we use transistors in amplifying circuits.

Just my uneducated 2 cents opinion.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 23, 2009, 04:40:59 PM

Quote from: Neptune01 on July 23, 2009, 03:10:47 PM
Gotcha!!
Good news is that I got my first JT working!
I had a look at this image and decided to reverse the wires connecting o the battery and to swap the LED.

Thanks to ALL!

Neptune:

That is the same photo I used to get my first one working also. Nice job. I think you will have a lot of fun with these circuits.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 23, 2009, 06:25:34 PM

Quote from: Neptune01 on July 23, 2009, 03:10:47 PM
Gotcha!!
Good news is that I got my first JT working!
I had a look at this image and decided to reverse the wires connecting o the battery and to swap the LED.

Thanks to ALL!

Great work Neptune :)

What do you want to try next?

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 23, 2009, 06:37:44 PM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on July 23, 2009, 12:51:09 PM
...

...
is the intent to replace the light of the led with the light of the spark gap?

Hi Wilby,
In some of tesla's writings I gathered that he was thinking if he could use sparks for lighting. He had 2 kinds of sparks and only one of them caused heat.
I don't have any way to experiment with this so I can only report from reading tesla's lecture to other professionals.

Quotenow to the real core of my questions and this might be opening a can of worms, if so my apologies in advance.
does a spark gap waste or entrain?

Grrreat question.
I wonder if the difference between the spark that is hot and the one that is not, is the answer to this question.

It is entirely possible that the cold spark is bringing in energy from the surrounding sea of energy.

Like the exothermic or endothermic reaction.
only bright. ;)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 23, 2009, 06:45:42 PM

@ jadaro2600

Quote from: jadaro2600 on July 23, 2009, 03:59:05 PM
Wouldn't it be more wise to use a JFET with this circuit?

I've appended an image of the most current version of my circuit ..it's the resistor less version - inductive only. I was thinking that a FET might be better than a BJT.

Fets had more on resistance than transistors and were less able to handle large currents. That may no longer be the case. However, I would think that theoretically your resistorless circuit is more efficient than one with a resistor since the caps do not consume power.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 23, 2009, 07:14:18 PM

i found fets .. mosfets irf 840 to blow up easly if a high spike is returned and it is unprotected plus you will need to change the curcuit to accomadate fets...

in my opinion ...

this is where the IST SHIFT COIL FITS... ;) and you dont tap the fet you tap the junction of the 2 coils diode and cap ..

agin there is A MILLION WAYS TO DO IT ..

but for the BEST WAY THERE IS 1 .. ;) ;D

lol

ist!

btw that 12v gel cell as i call it .. is still chargeing from the SAME AA im up to 10.45

so its slowing down ... but not too much it is still chargeing ... my cap reads 264.0vdc

i bet its a DEEP charge in the battery 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 23, 2009, 07:23:09 PM

Hi everybody,
I have been to the movies today, er well making them.
I made 6 very very small quicktime movies of my 2 tier joule thief turning on the secondary of a NS generator. In fact 3 of them.
Yesterday I made the unedited spontaneous movie moments after I discovered it.
Today, In a very unedited style again I checked the Radiant Generator and its waves and volts and compared the one from yesterday with 2 others.
So, this shows me that it is very possible to make the same device that Tariel Kapandse made, but without sparks of any kind... yet.
millivolts is too small to declare that, but I am certain there is a way to make this voltage higher.

It all started with a joule thief.
tor-23 from allelectronics,
245ohm base resistor
11T,11T,74T,21T = 2 secondaries
4 extra inductors 220uH each.
Battery getting low 1.2v or lower
1 of 3 stubblefield generators acting like some kind of resonant receivers.

Have a look.

***Bad Link removed by Moderator as requested***

jeanna
EDIT
There may be a problem.
Is anybody able to see something from these?
I will make another set, but they are too large. Only one is under 300k. darn! bbs.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 23, 2009, 07:33:56 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on July 23, 2009, 03:59:05 PM
...

I've appended an image of the most current version of my circuit ..it's the resistor less version - inductive only.

Hi jadaro,

Does one of those ways seem to perform better that the other?
I am starting to be intrigued by this idea.

Also, does the cap across the C-E need to be there too?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on July 23, 2009, 08:29:42 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 23, 2009, 07:33:56 PM
Hi jadaro,

Does one of those ways seem to perform better that the other?
I am starting to be intrigued by this idea.

Also, does the cap across the C-E need to be there too?

thank you,

jeanna

The one on the bottom performs better. The blue and orange components are optional. Only the black paths and components are required.

Also, the inductance needs to be sufficient to cause the cap to fill, and the capacitor needs to be fully discharged in order for the oscillations to begin.

I was considering a FET because it works on voltage ...however, this design I have is resistorless, and there is virtually no current flowing through the base, only what is required to turn it on.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on July 23, 2009, 09:27:53 PM

electricme said:

Quote
@Stprue
Not a dumb question, MOT's are
Microwave Oven Transformers
Would you like one? ;D I have a few more to add to the pile
jim

@all
Hey guys, it occurs to me, since I live in a large American city, people here who went through the digital TV conversion began throwing away their defunct TV's after they upgraded to a digital one.
These CRT TVs have a high voltage transformer to power the CRT picture tube. If you live in such a large city, there may be transformers in these TVs lying around to be salvaged.
Just test them for electrical continutiy. Free is free.

--Lee

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 23, 2009, 09:35:20 PM

@neptune
congrats!

@bill
thanks for the reply. i value your 'uneducated 2 cents opinion' more than you know. i happen to have a dual output NST but i have two plans for it already, a TEA laser and ? ;) hrmm might have to play about with the kapanadze thing.

@jeanna
thanks for the reply. i wonder that too. there are a great variety of 'hot' sparks, for example a tesla coil has one variety of spark in the spark gap and another off the topload. hrmm how to make a 'cold' spark, and will i know it's 'cold'?

thanks again to both of you for your replies, things to ponder while i am drowning leeches but pretending to fish for walleye.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 23, 2009, 09:45:35 PM

a good way to see hot and cold sparks is a relay or my door bell ;D lol

the orange to me in my osbevrations are hot green blue red bright red .. are cold ...

depends upon the freq i think ...

what flys out of a tesla coil is cold electricty what goes in is hot ...

ist!

to switch from cold to hot ... aint hard ;)

you all want to see how i throw things togather lol

i used this for only spaceing till i thought about it :D

so there ya go .. it is an inductor have a look lol

;D ;D ;D then i said to my self self why not lol ;) :D

yikes with a little playing i got me a new tesla coil

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 23, 2009, 10:00:36 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on July 23, 2009, 09:45:35 PM
a good way to see hot and cold sparks is a relay or my door bell ;D lol

the orange to me in my osbevrations are hot green blue red bright red .. are cold ...

depends upon the freq i think ...

what flys out of a tesla coil is cold electricty what goes in is hot ...

ist!

to switch from cold to hot ... aint hard ;)

see that's what i mean about the different varieties of spark, but i am pretty confident the electrode material plays a great deal in the color. that said i have seen different colors while using the same electrode also, but i can't say if it was frequency that caused it, can't say it wasn't either.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 23, 2009, 10:21:18 PM

@all

Electricity in its natural form is blue , some call it static before it get converted to the familiar killer .

I have to tell you a story , back in the high school day i managed to get some on the trampoline (you know for jumping ) I don't really remember my date but i can't tell you swiping my hand over the trampoline not touching it was enough to see blue flames lighting us in pitch dark . Yes there was so electricity in the air ...

It can also be found its magnetic form , i don't really know if it can be seen without a tesla meter.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 23, 2009, 10:29:06 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on July 23, 2009, 07:23:09 PM
Have a look.

EDIT
There may be a problem.
Is anybody able to see something from these?
I will make another set, but they are too large. Only one is under 300k. darn! bbs.

Your videos will only play in Quicktime. Can you use a codec that does not require Quicktime, like mp4?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 23, 2009, 10:32:50 PM

Thanks xee2,
Do they in fact play?
I mean these today?

the avi is 45MB and the compressed version is 500K to 2M.
but the compressed for the web is really small and I am not sure it is actually there.

I will wait for your reply.

Thanks.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 23, 2009, 10:46:29 PM

hi jeanna,
i dl'ed the radiantjt-1.mov (6.33 KB) and uploaded it to photobucket.com. it doesn't play.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 23, 2009, 11:11:20 PM

@all

First jeanna nice video , i always use this http://www.videolan.org/vlc/ for everything

works every time .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 23, 2009, 11:33:49 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on July 23, 2009, 11:11:20 PM
@all

First jeanna nice video , i always use this http://www.videolan.org/vlc/ for everything

works every time .

Mark

Thanks Mark,

I wanted to include the people who have dial-up and I wanted to add some more. I did not expect it to be troublesome.

I thought realplayer also played quicktime videos. I guess since I have a bunch of video players on my computer, I figure others do as well.

I downloaded vlc, but never tried it out. Quicktime opens most things and flip for mac makes wmv files a good show.

I am still using my mac for the a/v stuff. It is so much easier when you know how to use something. I am sure you know this one being an art major.

Thank you so much for letting me know that the movie actually uploaded. That helps a lot.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 23, 2009, 11:38:03 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on July 23, 2009, 10:32:50 PM
Thanks xee2,
Do they in fact play?

They do not play for me. I do not have Quicktime installed. I tried VLC but they would not play for me in it. I was able to play your first video by changing the .mov to .mp4 but that does not work for these videos.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 23, 2009, 11:42:20 PM

Jeanna:

I have quicktime on my computer, but I keep it turned off. Every time I open a movie file that uses that, I then have to do a msconfig and go to my start-up files, and turn it back off and reboot. It is like a virus this quicktime player. If I don't turn it off again, it will start every time I turn on my computer and, several times when my computer got slow, I did a control/alt/delete and quictime player was using 82% of my computer's resources. For what, I have no idea. It was supposed to be just running in the background. I hate this player!

I know you are either on a Mac or using the free open source OP system (Umbunto? can't remember the name) but if you could use something compatible with windows movie player, it would be great. If you can't that's fine, we will all work around it.
I just HATE quicktime and will probably be deleting it soon. (If it let's me)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 23, 2009, 11:51:01 PM

@ Pirate88179

Quote from: Pirate88179 on July 23, 2009, 11:42:20 PM
I just HATE quicktime and will probably be deleting it soon. (If it let's me)

I agree. The Windows version tries to take over the whole computer. It is a very big nuisance.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 24, 2009, 12:09:02 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on July 23, 2009, 11:42:20 PM
Jeanna:

I have quicktime on my computer, but I keep it turned off. Every time I open a movie file that uses that, I then have to do a msconfig and go to my start-up files, and turn it back off and reboot. ... I hate this player!

I know you are either on a Mac or using the free open source OP system (Umbunto? can't remember the name) but if you could use something compatible with windows movie player, it would be great. If you can't that's fine, we will all work around it.
I just HATE quicktime and will probably be deleting it soon. (If it let's me)

Bill

Oh that is EXACTLY what happens every time I use wmv.
I have to change everything.
I end up rebooting.
This is why I was so delighted with flip for mac.
It never takes over my computer.

How funny they made it so difficult.

I will try to use the vlc, if that works. but not tonight.
Well, I guess I will have to learn how to upload to youtube.
They made it their business to be cross platform, well except for some of the open source people... ;)

Ah yes how we make things difficult or work. this has been an interesting day.

I am sorry for any trouble I caused.

Perhaps I will delete the links since they don't work...

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 24, 2009, 12:26:18 AM

Jeanna:

I suggest leaving your links up until you get stuff posted on youtube. As you know, this is where I post (since you always leave me nice comments) and it is easy to do. It supports a whole bunch of different formats. If you have any problems doing this, let me know and if I can help, I will.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 24, 2009, 12:51:14 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on July 24, 2009, 12:26:18 AM
Jeanna:

I suggest leaving your links up until you get stuff posted on youtube. As you know, this is where I post (since you always leave me nice comments) and it is easy to do. It supports a whole bunch of different formats. If you have any problems doing this, let me know and if I can help, I will.

Bill

Thank you, Bill.
I will do that.
I realize that this doesn't solve the problem for the people I was thinking of today.
Gary and jim won't be able to see it on youtube.
But maybe ogg.
Maybe I can load it there too.
Once the movie is made it is easy.

I just made the movie in little pieces for the dial up folks, so I need to remake the movie.
It is ok I am so pleased that I got radiant energy out of a joule thief, it am really excited about that part.

Now, I am in a whole new world.

I am surprised nobody commented about that part, since yesterday.
588KHz received from a sending transmitter that has 208Khz max.
The Stubblefield generator must have ramped up the frequency as it received it.

And it is very quiet. The georgian one sounds like my neighbor's gas generator. I just need to make it bigger, I guess. Maybe the ignition coil I just bought will be big enough to work. That sure would be convenient.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 24, 2009, 12:53:14 AM

Jeanna:

Jim, on dial-up, watches and comments on all of my Tube videos. I think he downloads them first.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 24, 2009, 01:02:05 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on July 24, 2009, 12:53:14 AM
Jeanna:

Jim, on dial-up, watches and comments on all of my Tube videos. I think he downloads them first.

Bill

Oh yes, he does comment. I remember.
Well, I will do this.
Maybe I will make a whole new and much better video tomorrow, first. I can make it in a couple of small bursts instead of 6 and that might be easier and look better too.

Thank you so much for all your support, Bill.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 24, 2009, 01:47:31 AM

i built a new coil as my last one didnt turn out well not sure whats wrong with it yet

but this coil im getting 115 v from 16 turns

im gonna put a 32 turn and see what i get

i did 8 turn and i got 60v

the core is split like mk2 but it is the cross winding and i have 2 turns each side

ist

kinda like 808 lol ;)

i had to switch the driveing aa in my battery charger the 12v is still chargeing .. im up to 10.70v

when i disconnect it.... it dont drop on the meter much at all 8)

50 turns 268 v

built 1 more new coil i topped 450v 1 coil.. :D 1 inch goldmine there might be 100 turns on this coil putting out 450 dc

i guess i drop the turn 1 and see what i get

results were worse ..
350v

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 24, 2009, 03:15:23 AM

@ ist

Quote from: innovation_station on July 24, 2009, 01:47:31 AM
built 1 more new coil i topped 450v 1 coil.. :D 1 inch goldmine there might be 100 turns on this coil putting out 450 dc

Looks like 2 base coil turns and 2 collector coil turns. Try increasing your collector coil to 10 turns and I think you will get even more voltage. What size is your pickup coil wire - it really looks like a small diameter.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 24, 2009, 03:36:46 AM

its 30 or 32 gage ...

i have finer wire too but thats a bit of work lol ..

its probally 38 or 40 gage the fine wire i have some 34 i think too .. ill try em all

;D

ist!

for xee2 .. 2 10 120 turns 30 and 32 gage

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sm0ky2 on July 24, 2009, 04:14:37 AM

i'm trying to duplicate this simple JT circuit shown here::

http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-a-Joule-Thief/ (http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-a-Joule-Thief/)

but thus far have had no success lighting 1 LED with a single AA battery like is shown here.

theres just not enough power available.
is anyone else having this problem??
perhaps im just not equipped with the joule thief "talent"?

im not to the point of calling this a hoax,, but this is not working the way people say it should.

i have verified that the transistors are turning 'on', and passing power through them. But the power im getting is exactly what the battery is putting out, nothing "thiefed" here....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 24, 2009, 07:19:21 AM

Quote from: sm0ky2 on July 24, 2009, 04:14:37 AM
i'm trying to duplicate this simple JT circuit shown here::

http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-a-Joule-Thief/ (http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-a-Joule-Thief/)

but thus far have had no success lighting 1 LED with a single AA battery like is shown here.

theres just not enough power available.
is anyone else having this problem??
perhaps im just not equipped with the joule thief "talent"?

im not to the point of calling this a hoax,, but this is not working the way people say it should.

i have verified that the transistors are turning 'on', and passing power through them. But the power im getting is exactly what the battery is putting out, nothing "thiefed" here....

you're going to call it a hoax? i can't believe you would even say that...
keep at it. persistence usually wins the day.
try this page for direction. http://www.emanator.demon.co.uk/bigclive/joule.htm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on July 24, 2009, 07:35:18 AM

Its not a hoax :) They can be hard to get to work sometimes but I am lighting 140 LEDS from 1 AA and they are really bright. Can you post a pic of your JT so we can see whats up?

Thanks!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 24, 2009, 11:35:25 AM

@ ist

Quote from: innovation_station on July 24, 2009, 03:36:46 AM
for xee2 .. 2 10 120 turns 30 and 32 gage

Looks nice. Did you get more than 450 volts with it?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 24, 2009, 12:20:12 PM

actually my results were poor probally the fine wire not makeing good connection i will test it out today more but ...

i bet the 2 turn as above will produce more .. i think the wire is too fine on the jt

but i only tryed it quickly when i finished it so i can not say for sure .. right now

but i dont think the results will be better

i like the 808 style wich i never posted the pic yet as i get 285v from 50 turn and it is split like the mk2 style ..

o so many ways to do it i better get to work now :)

ist!

this is the 808 MK2 style 285vdc 50 turn 30 ga

btw this is basic 808 the real one will have 2 infinity signs ;D and an o collector lol plus pnp and npn of course ... lol ;)

;D im almost at 11vdc in my 12v 3.6 ah battery .. from my aa charger board sure it takes 2 days ... but so what .. lol i started at 7.1 vdc in the 12v

ill post a pic of the finished unit all hooked up and chargeing today ..

single phase npn only unit really basic

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on July 24, 2009, 12:37:52 PM

Quote from: sm0ky2 on July 24, 2009, 04:14:37 AM
i'm trying to duplicate this simple JT circuit shown here::

http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-a-Joule-Thief/ (http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-a-Joule-Thief/)

but thus far have had no success lighting 1 LED with a single AA battery like is shown here.

theres just not enough power available.
is anyone else having this problem??
perhaps im just not equipped with the joule thief "talent"?

im not to the point of calling this a hoax,, but this is not working the way people say it should.

i have verified that the transistors are turning 'on', and passing power through them. But the power im getting is exactly what the battery is putting out, nothing "thiefed" here....

Try Switching your Collector and base wire , that's usually the problem .Polarity also . We Dont HOAX round here . It DEFINITELY no talent on your part for sure :o I suggest you start on page one on this thread . the Basics are in the first 100 post .We are way too advanced here for starter even though we will still try and help you . Good Luck .
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 24, 2009, 12:56:21 PM

Quote from: sm0ky2 on July 24, 2009, 04:14:37 AM
i'm trying to duplicate this simple JT circuit shown here::

http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-a-Joule-Thief/ (http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-a-Joule-Thief/)

but thus far have had no success lighting 1 LED with a single AA battery like is shown here.
...
i have verified that the transistors are turning 'on', and passing power through them. But the power im getting is exactly what the battery is putting out, nothing "thiefed" here....

Hi Sm0key2,
I suspect if all the wires are right, and they may not be yet, that the core is either choking too much or too high permeability.
Either way seems to stop the action.
You must have an oscillation that starts and stops the coils. Without that, all you will get is the action of a single battery.

It is not the amplification of the transistor you are after, it is the switching.
So, knowing that it is working is great, but now, can you see it turn off?
I suspect it is fully on and not turning off ever.

I know there are folks who will help you, but we might need you to find a way to upload a picture so we can see what is happening.

Have you watched how Bre Petis connects the wires yet? [makezine video]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTAqGKt64WM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTAqGKt64WM)
That is the first step in my suggestions.

keep on trying...

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 24, 2009, 01:01:55 PM

im 99% sure what is wrong with my 3 phase npn unit ..

i increased the mass of the primary but not the mass of the secondary ..

and my output droped big time .. plus i dont have dow for more trsansistors so i used what i had .. 4401 i have an abundance of them ..

but i like to use 2n2222 they work kick ass!

even on a 3.6 v pulsed supply :D

no heat .. 4401 apear to heat up ... a bit even on a 1.5 v supply ..

but its a mass primary to mass secondary thing as well as wire length toroide core tuneing magnetic tuneing and the BRIDGE IS DARN IMPORTANT TOO ... as there is a diode resistance factor ..

too many things to consider ...

lol

ist!

ok jeanna i found A CRAPPY 1 INCH GOLD MINE... all i can get is like 70 v i tryed everything

is it the coil 2 10 120

wich is now 2 2 100 30 ga ..
its a lousley core ...

i will from now ON TEST EVERY TOROIDE B4 I WIND IT LOL sheesh! ;D

almost had me there ... lol ;)

ok im starting over

im useing 2 turn jt on 1 place on the core .. i get 6.8 v per turn .. now i will wind 100 turns on the same core ..

and i should get close to 700v as the math sedjusts ... see how it goes

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 24, 2009, 02:01:02 PM

@ ist

Quote from: innovation_station on July 24, 2009, 01:01:55 PM
im useing 2 turn jt on 1 place on the core .. i get 6.8 v per turn .. now i will wind 100 turns on the same core ..

and i should get close to 700v as the math sedjusts ... see how it goes

Jeanna posted data showing that voltage does go up about as multiple of turns. So if you are getting 6.8 volts for one turn then I would agree that you should get over 600 volts for 100 turns. Please post results.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 24, 2009, 02:22:39 PM

ok this is the scope ...

i put 100 turns 30 gage

now math says lol 700 v fact 312...

so this is what needs be done lol 50 turns than switch dirrection same winding dirrection ... around the toroide tho but reverse the way u put it through the center if you put it in from the top on the first 50 you will put it in from the bottom on the last 50

ill build it next .. lol

ill still do it all 1 wire tho

ist

if this HOLDS TRUE there ya go make laps same all the way around now you can have kv from 1`gold mine and a button cell

:D

few pics

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 24, 2009, 02:48:51 PM

@ ist

Quote from: innovation_station on July 24, 2009, 02:22:39 PM
so this is what needs be done lol 50 turns than switch dirrection same winding dirrection ... around the toroide tho but reverse the way u put it through the center if you put it in from the top on the first 50 you will put it in from the bottom on the last 50

I always have all of my turns going over the toroid in the same direction when they are being added in a clockwise or counter clockwise direction around the toroid. That always works for me.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 24, 2009, 03:09:12 PM

xee2

I now have a open neon and with my new set up it's only lit on one side! I can't remember what you said about this and how to counter it. Can you help?

Last set up 170+ on 8pickup turns by 10 b/c winds.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 24, 2009, 03:12:04 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 24, 2009, 02:01:02 PM
@ ist

Jeanna posted data showing that voltage does go up about as multiple of turns. So if you are getting 6.8 volts for one turn then I would agree that you should get over 600 volts for 100 turns. Please post results.

I'm not sure but I think that hypersticies play a major put in what you can get out of a coil depending on the coil.

P.S. can't spell ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 24, 2009, 03:16:49 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on July 24, 2009, 02:22:39 PM
ok this is the scope ...

i put 100 turns 30 gage

now math says lol 700 v fact 312...

so this is what needs be done lol 50 turns than switch dirrection same winding dirrection ... around the toroide tho but reverse the way u put it through the center if you put it in from the top on the first 50 you will put it in from the bottom on the last 50

ill build it next .. lol

ill still do it all 1 wire tho

ist

if this HOLDS TRUE there ya go make laps same all the way around now you can have kv from 1`gold mine and a button cell

:D

few pics

This proves what I just said on the hyper...stesis...whatever...

What you are doing IST is canceling out empflux...i think....why do I think this? because I have maxed out turns on a coil when overlaping and as I took winds off...voltage goes up. Each coil has a max voltage but this also depends on lots of other things like wind design, flux, and perm! but you know this 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 24, 2009, 03:18:59 PM

Hi everybody.

Well it is only 12:12 here and I can announce that my first ever youtube video is available.

It is 2 1/2 minutes and it is the first 3 of the ones I tried to load up yesterday. It is the total of the videos having to do with the one green coil. I made a few more, which I will add soon, and they were videos of the same 2 tier etc joule thief circuit as seen through the secondary of 2 other stubblefield coils. So, more will follow, but here is numerouno:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_wAsAeUIHA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_wAsAeUIHA)

I like that the last 2 letters are laughing! That is MY STYLE.

jeanna

mmm now, I need to remove those links from yesterday but I have gone past the time allowance for doing that... Help !...please, Bill.

j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 24, 2009, 03:19:40 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 24, 2009, 02:48:51 PM
@ ist

I always have all of my turns going over the toroid in the same direction when they are being added in a clockwise or counter clockwise direction around the toroid. That always works for me.

This is the same way gost Hanezs winds and he gets great resluts like you! It's funny how the slightly altered mk way changes things soooo much!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 24, 2009, 03:21:29 PM

@ stprue

Quote from: stprue on July 24, 2009, 03:09:12 PM
xee2

I now have a open neon and with my new set up it's only lit on one side! I can't remember what you said about this and how to counter it. Can you help?

Last set up 170+ on 8pickup turns by 10 b/c winds.

My tests show only one electrode of neon lights with a solenoid pickup coil. My question was if the MK coil would light both electrodes of neon.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 24, 2009, 03:24:27 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 24, 2009, 03:18:59 PM
Hi everybody.

Well it is only 12:12 here and I can announce that my first ever youtube video is available.

It is 2 1/2 minutes and it is the first 3 of the ones I tried to load up yesterday. It is the total of the videos having to do with the one green coil. I made a few more, which I will add soon, and they were videos of the same 2 tier etc joule thief circuit as seen through the secondary of 2 other stubblefield coils. So, more will follow, but here is numerouno:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_wAsAeUIHA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_wAsAeUIHA)

I like that the last 2 letters are laughing! That is MY STYLE.

jeanna

mmm now, I need to remove those links from yesterday but I have gone past the time allowance for doing that... Help !...please, Bill.

j

nice jeanna! thanks, i was wanting to see these.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 24, 2009, 03:24:54 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 24, 2009, 03:18:59 PM
Hi everybody.

Well it is only 12:12 here and I can announce that my first ever youtube video is available.

It is 2 1/2 minutes and it is the first 3 of the ones I tried to load up yesterday. It is the total of the videos having to do with the one green coil. I made a few more, which I will add soon, and they were videos of the same 2 tier etc joule thief circuit as seen through the secondary of 2 other stubblefield coils. So, more will follow, but here is numerouno:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_wAsAeUIHA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_wAsAeUIHA)

I like that the last 2 letters are laughing! That is MY STYLE.

jeanna

mmm now, I need to remove those links from yesterday but I have gone past the time allowance for doing that... Help !...please, Bill.

j

Great vid.. you have a very young sounding voice but I thought you are retired.. anyways nice vid and now I want to make one!!!

P.S. You should really try this tap winding, it has so many options for hook up.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 24, 2009, 03:26:43 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 24, 2009, 03:21:29 PM
@ stprue

My tests show only one electrode of neon lights with a solenoid pickup coil. My question was if the MK coil would light both electrodes of neon.

ahhhh very good question...I wonder...sense v or c or both are going both ways...maybe!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 24, 2009, 03:36:42 PM

@IST

Quoteok jeanna i found A CRAPPY 1 INCH GOLD MINE... all i can get is like 70 v i tryed everything

is it the coil 2 10 120

wich is now 2 2 100 30 ga ..
its a lousley core ...

Oh Darn!

I cannot get that medium to 'move' [oscillate the transistor] with so few turns as that. I usually need at least 4T of both to start it up. Even then I have not been impressed, but they (the toroids) probably know that.

I like the filter.
I just learned - by reading the included information - :D - that the filter has 1.39mH per side. each side is wrapped with 19 turns.

I have always removed those coils, but this has given me all my best MK1 /MK2 results. 'course, I didn't get 450v on it yet... but that's another story.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 24, 2009, 03:40:00 PM

@ jeanna

8) Now you are also a movie director and producer, cool.

The scope shows voltage when JT is on because JT is coupling to the coil. There does not have to be a direct physical connection for energy to flow from one place to another. Remember my one wire neon? Energy flowed from unconnected wire back to JT by capacitive coupling.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 24, 2009, 03:41:14 PM

Quote from: stprue on July 24, 2009, 03:24:54 PM
Great vid.... anyways nice vid and now I want to make one!!!

P.S. You should really try this tap winding, it has so many options for hook up.

Thanks,
What are you calling a tap winding?
Did you go into detail on that? I thought I had read everything. Sometimes I miss a dozen posts when they come too fast.

Please describe, or say where you did.

Thanks.

@Wilby,

thank you

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 24, 2009, 03:47:49 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 24, 2009, 03:40:00 PM
@ jeanna

8) Now you are also a movie director and producer, cool.

The scope shows voltage when JT is on because JT is coupling to the coil. There does not have to be a direct physical connection for energy to flow from one place to another. Remember my one wire neon? Energy flow from unconnected wire back to JT by capacitive coupling.

Thanks xee2,

So, that qualifies it for radiant when the coupling is in the air, right?
I guess we don't know too much, since tesla had studied this and so very little of his free energy radiant discoveries made the light of day.

Thanks, it was fun to have a surprise like that.
Not all the Stubblefield coils are as good as that little one. The 2 to follow will show that.

I added up the inductors, and only mentioned in passing that the stubblefield coil is one big inductor. ( with those 2 little ones that are a total enigma)
So
JT is 1 then 4 more on the board and then 3 more in the NS coil.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 24, 2009, 03:55:50 PM

Quote from: stprue on July 24, 2009, 03:19:40 PM
This is the same way ghost Hazens winds and he gets great resluts like you! It's funny how the slightly altered mk way changes things soooo much!

Oh yes.
I like that Hazens way.
I tested it against some other ways, and I found it to be only a very little bit less strong than the bifilar way. But it is much easier to modify.
So, I use it to make and check the tuning of the coil, but then I switch to a different style later...

I haven't yet proved to myself that the crossed kind that MK1 likes best is best. I believe him, but I haven't tested it much myself.

In fact I will be doing that, because the next plan is to wind the secondary and then add the primary later. Tesla suggested this for tuning, and I want to see if it works for tuning our stuff.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 24, 2009, 03:56:20 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on July 24, 2009, 03:47:49 PM
so very little of his free energy radiant discoveries made the light of day.

Tesla got a patent for first wireless telegraph. His radiant energy is very common today. We call it radio waves.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 24, 2009, 03:59:21 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 24, 2009, 03:40:00 PM
@ jeanna

8) Now you are also a movie director and producer, cool.

The scope shows voltage when JT is on because JT is coupling to the coil. There does not have to be a direct physical connection for energy to flow from one place to another. Remember my one wire neon? Energy flowed from unconnected wire back to JT by capacitive coupling.

Another example of the skin effect...NICE!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on July 24, 2009, 04:04:08 PM

Congratulations Lady @jeanna !

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 24, 2009, 04:05:30 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 24, 2009, 03:41:14 PM
Thanks,
What are you calling a tap winding?
Did you go into detail on that? I thought I had read everything. Sometimes I miss a dozen posts when they come too fast.

Please describe, or say where you did.

Thanks.

@Wilby,

thank you

jeanna

Well my last pic's I put up were 4 1 turn (that's 2 from the bottom) that make 170V. So there are 8 wire to tap into, think of it like multiple pickups but with far less winds/space being taking up. Just copy my pic of the simple start and I will guide you the rest of the way. 26 guage works the same...what does this mean...well it takes up less space so more can be added.

P.S. Are you making tesla coils yet? I will start mine in a week or so!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 24, 2009, 04:10:25 PM

@xee2,
Yes,
That is why I am excited by this.
A new beginning for me.
Another avenue for exploration!!

@Stprue,

whose skin? some ghost?
air... only, with an oscillating frequency coming from the joule thief circuit, entering the wires of the NS and magnetically coupling then coming out the secondary of same.

@jesus,
thank you

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 24, 2009, 04:16:07 PM

i got it now folks ...

im gonna make a new thred for the ist 808 coil

got it down now ;D 808 explains it well lol

it is 2 infinity sings wraped round a o toride ;) i do have some of my pencel art work for this thred too

plus u all know me i have the bifillar ver 808 too npn pnp lol

ist!

ok im winding

but first to finally see your video jeanna i could not watch it on my comp i love the tube ... it seams to work just awesome for me now .. lol :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 24, 2009, 04:16:11 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 24, 2009, 04:10:25 PM

@Stprue,

whose skin? some ghost?
air... only, with an oscillating frequency coming from the joule thief circuit, entering the wires of the NS and magnetically coupling then coming out the secondary of same.

jeanna

Yes but if you hold it or true ground it, it will light brighter ( you can even use a electrolytic cap). You have never herd of the skin effect? I'm not just making it up...google it!

edit: I think the body actually act like a cap...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 24, 2009, 04:24:11 PM

nice video jeanna ...

i know about the skin effect lol ;)

i hear alum works well lol

ist

my next core ROCKS ... 7.4V PER TURN ;D ;D

i will do 40 turn then reversal on it see what it does ... :D

BTW LOVE YOU MK1 ... YOU ROCK ;D YOUR 1 DAMM SMART GUY! 8)

not that anyone else is any less!! we all have our jobs ... guess you all know mine ;)

toroide tuneing 7.28v per 1 turn

well that didnt work as i thought it may but it tought me much .. lol it must be wound as you all have been doing with the x coil

cuz reverse winding was not additive .. i cut the coil and got 2 feeds both put out wound top and bottom in same dirrection but to be additive it must be wound proper for other pole starting at the jt coil ..

i ll wind 1 that way now :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 24, 2009, 05:32:57 PM

@ Jeanna:

Your link was removed as requested.

Great movie!!! Very well done. Audio was good also, very clear and good focus as well.
Great job!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 24, 2009, 05:48:28 PM

Thank you Bill,

Its good to hear the audio was clear. I wasn't too sure, in fact.

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 24, 2009, 06:27:19 PM

I found a spark gap that works. Mp4 video should play in most of the free video players and Quicktime (download then play).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 24, 2009, 06:40:48 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 24, 2009, 06:27:19 PM
I found a spark gap that works. Mp4 video should play in most of the free video players (download then play).

nice! how much are the GDT's?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 24, 2009, 06:44:09 PM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on July 24, 2009, 06:40:48 PM
nice! how much are the GDT's?

$1.05 each

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 24, 2009, 07:19:13 PM

Hi everybody,
Here is number 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9ZFKDSxFTE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9ZFKDSxFTE)

This one has 2 more stubblefield generators and is the remaining video from yesterday.

Bill,
the tags and category disappeared and have been replaced with some offer to invite others blah blah.
It may be because it recognizes me.
Please someone confirm that the category is science tech and the tags are earth battery,jt, stub, and radiant energy.

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 24, 2009, 07:27:40 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 24, 2009, 06:27:19 PM
I found a spark gap that works.

That is so even. I guess it does.
Can you not see the spark jumping the gap?

I would like to see what this looks like. It was a hypothesis of mine that the 2 wires at the top of a stubblefield generator that were to be left alone were to exchange a spark across a gap to make the oscillation in the coil and thus generate the inductance out the secondary.

No one agreed with me at the time, but I still think it may be what he had going on. And, I would buy a couple/few just to put them in place to see what happens.

Nice,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 24, 2009, 07:44:57 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on July 24, 2009, 07:27:40 PM
Can you not see the spark jumping the gap?

The packages are not clear, but you can see when it sparks so it is obvious that it is working.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 24, 2009, 07:49:31 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 24, 2009, 07:44:57 PM
@ jeanna

The packages are not clear, but you can see when it sparks so it is obvious that it is working.

Xee2,
I just did a search since wilby didn't ask where.
So, please say where you found these?
My usual places don't have them.
And the ones I found were for higher voltage, I think... not sure, so I am asking.

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 24, 2009, 07:57:22 PM

jeanna, i found them @ mouser $1.36 each, digikey has them also.
http://www.mouser.com/search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=PLZ7Wb1ZjBNyY2iro4n9bw%3D%3D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 24, 2009, 08:09:08 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on July 24, 2009, 07:27:40 PM
I would like to see what this looks like.

Most large electronic parts distributors have them. Bourns web page has list of distributors with quantities in stock.

This is link to PDF data sheet. http://www.bourns.com/data/global/pdfs/2027.pdf

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 24, 2009, 08:24:13 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 24, 2009, 07:19:13 PM
Hi everybody,
Here is number 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9ZFKDSxFTE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9ZFKDSxFTE)

This one has 2 more stubblefield generators and is the remaining video from yesterday.

Bill,
the tags and category disappeared and have been replaced with some offer to invite others blah blah.
It may be because it recognizes me.
Please someone confirm that the category is science tech and the tags are earth battery,jt, stub, and radiant energy.

thanks,

jeanna

Jeanna:

Yes to all of the above. Nice job again. I think Youtube is the way to go for us to show our vids. I subscribed to your channel. This way, I will be notified of any new vids that you post. Great job over there.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 24, 2009, 08:28:10 PM

@ jeanna

Were you able to play the mp4 video in Quicktime?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 24, 2009, 08:39:51 PM

Thank you, Bill!!

I agree.
2 years ago it was too much of a chore to upload to youtube. This was a snap. Easy easy.

@xee2,
Thank you.
I was just at the mouser website applying filters etc.
There is a $5 version of 36v which looks like the old style caps I got a handful of from the goldmine. It was measured in picofarads too.

Is this how they are used and how they are rated?
I guess it makes a kind of sense.
this is especially nice for me because each time I said my idea about the teeny spark gap someone would always jump in to say I needed much higher voltage.
I believe this shows that that idea is untrue.

If I can make a spark at 36v and the flyback voltage is easily that on most of my joule thief circuits, I am more sure than ever that this was a method that was regularly used to make oscillations with an induction coil 130 years ago.

Thank you for this.

There is one that makes a spark at 75v and costs 41 cents. I hope that is not the one with the minimum of 235 pieces! :D
I may be a new customer of mouser!

thanks,

jeanna

edit:

QuoteWere you able to play the mp4 video in Quicktime?

yes, in fact they have always been an automatic play with quicktime and I just thought mpeg4 was an apple in-house movie format. I guess not, but it was an easy job to see it. Thanks.

j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 24, 2009, 09:07:17 PM

@ jeanna

The 36 volt one was $112, but there was a 35 volt one for $5.39 Bourns 2026-35-C3F.

I did not know they made them at that low of a voltage. I need to get the data sheet to see what it is.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 24, 2009, 09:11:24 PM

@ jeanna

Check the data sheets before you buy. The one they had listed as 35 volts is really 350 volts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 24, 2009, 09:29:48 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 24, 2009, 09:11:24 PM
@ jeanna

Check the data sheets before you buy. The one they had listed as 35 volts is really 350 volts.

;D ;D
ah well.

But even $112 sort of answers my question. I don't need to buy it when I can see it is possible.
You know even 75v and 90v. You just proved 90v. So, I can get that on almost every untuned toroid, so why couldn't stubblefield?

what a find!

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 24, 2009, 09:58:50 PM

few more pics ... ;D ;D

what a pain to get 500vdc.... yikes

160 turns 38 gage

ist..

yep thats a 1 inch GOLD MINE ;D and only half of it ill put another 160 on the other side ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 24, 2009, 10:04:00 PM

@ ist

Quote from: innovation_station on July 24, 2009, 09:58:50 PM
what a pain to get 500vdc.... yikes

500 volts should light a fluorescent tube.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 24, 2009, 10:06:42 PM

Xee2:

I agree. I lit two 48" tubes from the Fuji which was putting out about 350-375 volts. 500 should do it nicely.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 24, 2009, 10:28:33 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 24, 2009, 10:04:00 PM
@ ist

500 volts should light a fluorescent tube.

yep it did lite the flro but i BLEW UP my coil ... lol

made you a youtube video ...

BULB WAS BRIGHT WITH OUT TOUCHING IT ...

got some arking now lol

here is the video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psRWo7wwtK0

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 24, 2009, 10:30:51 PM

Ist,
How do you blow up a coil?
What happened?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 24, 2009, 10:33:54 PM

im guessing because my wire was so fine ... it found a week point and melted it im not sure i have to inspect the wire ... lol

ist

maybe the uni .... is telling me not to use the bridge lol

what ya all think ;) :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mr_Video on July 24, 2009, 10:52:55 PM

@ ist

looks like you're just one step away from creating the world's smallest Tesla coil LOL

how much current does that thing draw ?

maybe TOO much current, if it blew out your coil .

nice work though ! :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sm0ky2 on July 24, 2009, 11:05:44 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 24, 2009, 12:56:21 PM
Hi Sm0key2,

You must have an oscillation that starts and stops the coils. Without that, all you will get is the action of a single battery.

It is not the amplification of the transistor you are after, it is the switching.
So, knowing that it is working is great, but now, can you see it turn off?
I suspect it is fully on and not turning off ever.

Have you watched how Bre Petis connects the wires yet? [makezine video]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTAqGKt64WM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTAqGKt64WM)
That is the first step in my suggestions.

keep on trying...

jeanna

you are probably right, it may very well NOT be turning off, theres a constant current flow through the base resistor, which tells me it should be always on. though i have no way of knowing for sure. if it is switching, its happening so fast i have no way to detect it without a scope.

So, the question now is. how to make it switch off?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 24, 2009, 11:20:28 PM

Hi Sm0key2,
That is the purpose of the 1k ohm resistor.
I am glad you can verify that it is indeed on all the time.

I guess if you didn't blow the transistor, because you have the same trouble with several of them, it is in the way it is wound or the core.

You have not told us what the core is, if you know. You probably know where it came from. We have dump experts here who might be able to tell you what it is from where you got it.

The most likely thing is that the wires are not center-tapped.
It is the center tap that makes it turn on and off with a great deal of leeway.
So, they can be connected in a series way, if you want to call it that, but it must be a center tap. They must go around the toroid core in divergent directions from the pos of the battery.
The other ends of the wires connect to the base with its 1k ohm resistor, and the Collector. The light can go one way or the other so always try both ways.

tell me when you do that, OK?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 24, 2009, 11:25:48 PM

Quote from: sm0ky2 on July 24, 2009, 11:05:44 PM
you are probably right, it may very well NOT be turning off, theres a constant current flow through the base resistor, which tells me it should be always on. though i have no way of knowing for sure. if it is switching, its happening so fast i have no way to detect it without a scope.

So, the question now is. how to make it switch off?

Smoky:

Make the basic ones like we all did and then move on from there. And please, do not accuse anyone here of perpetrating any hoaxes. There are very good folks here and all of the advancements made have been documented and replicated by many others.
None of us is here to fool anyone. If you can't make it work, that does not mean it is not possible, it just means you don't know how. Welcome to the club. Most of us were there once as well. If you need help, folks here will help you. Just please refrain from making comments that imply, intimate, suggest, or accuse the folks here of a hoax. They, and myself, will take that very seriously.

Thank you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sm0ky2 on July 24, 2009, 11:29:26 PM

all my cores are ceramic, taken from surplus computer parts
various sizes
i have a few ferrite cylinder cores, but those arent giving me any luck either

and Bill,, if you READ what i said, i said that im NOT saying its a hoax...

you are quick to jump down my throat, thats TWICE youve done that, please dont do it again. I'm just trying to make this thing "work" so i can incorporate it into my earth battery, as YOU yourself suggested that i do...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 24, 2009, 11:32:19 PM

yep small T coils are cool toys ...

and your probally right i did not have a cap there ... that is my current regulator ...

also when i disconnected it i may have got a kick from the bulb ...

none the less i wont use spider wire any more ... :D

ill build yes another this time 30 gage and i dont care how neat and tidy it is .... ;D

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 24, 2009, 11:58:18 PM

Quote from: sm0ky2 on July 24, 2009, 11:29:26 PM
all my cores are ceramic, taken from surplus computer parts
various sizes
i have a few ferrite cylinder cores, but those arent giving me any luck either

Now, lets see.
I think the dump experts will have to address the ceramic material.
The cylinder is not what this joule thief is about.
We did have the discussion early on in this thread, and the fuji circuit is based on it, but I doubt you want to wind 1760 turns on your secondary just to get a rise in voltage.
So, a toroid shape is the best bet.

10/$1 from allelectronics Tor-23. Great deal and you can see lots of things to drool over while there. I am sure you can justify the $7 shipping.

Anyway, My guess is that the winding needs to be center-tapped. It is the thing that catches everybody, at one time or another. Right everybody?
I particularly like the way the makezine video shows how to make sure it is right, and I think the instructables may not be as clear, but different ways of describing work for different people. That I do know.

So, Is your bell wire in 2 different colors?
This is a simple way to help you get it center tapped, because the wires are clearly different.
Splay both wires apart.
Take one color from one side and the other color from the other side and twist them together.
This is the end of one wire to the beginning of the other. Twist them immediately after you check that one and then move on to the next step.

I am not sure which one is the base on the transistors you have, but solder the resistor to the base early on in the process. I think that helps to force you away from the simple matching of wires to legs which is wrong.

I wrote it all out last night.

Please try these things. but if the ceramic is wrong and ultra high permeablity, or the cylinder is too permeable, you may need hundreds of turns, and you probably don't want to start out that way.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 25, 2009, 12:05:55 AM

@ ist

Quote from: innovation_station on July 24, 2009, 10:33:54 PM
what ya all think ;) :D

Nice spark. Sorry about the coil. Thanks for the video. I do not trust enamel insulation, that is why I use plastic coated wires. I think the enamel gets scraped off by wire rubbing against another wire. My coils make a noise when operating that is caused by wires vibrating against each other. The rubbing from the vibration probably rubbed off the insulation.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sm0ky2 on July 25, 2009, 12:07:01 AM

i'll try to find some weaker cores. these i have here are made for very high frequency (Mhz range)

that may be my problem. i know to some people transistors may seem complicated, but thats not my problem, i know how to hook them up, and its working just fine.

what NOT apparently working, is a fluxuating current through the base, which would turn it on and off. i suspect this collasping field is the cause for the inductance that raises yur 1.5v to 3+ to operate the LED.

im playing around with some steel rings but that may be too far in the other direction. i'll dig through my crap tonight and try to find a ferrite core, i know i have some around here somewhere...

and yes, my wire is 2 different colors, i was very careful with the windings to make sure they didnt get crossed.
and ive tried both ways, parallel ( as in the mckinze video) and series (as the instructable says to do).

im just trying to figure out why some dingbat on YouTube can make one in 30 seconds, and here i am with 12 of these things on my desk that dont do what they're supposed to do...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 25, 2009, 12:09:31 AM

Thanks for the video, Ist.

It will help people to know it IS possible to break through the varnish on mag wire and be troubled by a spark.

Nice, even if it wasn't fun.

Thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 25, 2009, 12:21:30 AM

Quote from: sm0ky2 on July 24, 2009, 11:29:26 PM
and Bill,, if you READ what i said, i said that im NOT saying its a hoax...

you are quick to jump down my throat, thats TWICE youve done that, please dont do it again. I'm just trying to make this thing "work" so i can incorporate it into my earth battery, as YOU yourself suggested that i do...

Smokey:

I did READ what you said. I also read the replies of good longtime members of this topic that appeared to take offense to what you wrote. I also read their responses. (And PM's) I was just very politely asking you to refrain from doing that again, no matter if it was intentional or not. As for jumping down your throat, I have now idea what you are talking about. I don't know how I could have said this any nicer.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 25, 2009, 12:22:29 AM

its all fun as long as we learn in the process..

im learning to figure it out ... as i go

plus im used to winding coils .. so it dont bother me ...

my chargers seam to work well even if i cant get the output to light a floro

easly they still rock the batteries ..

the shift i could build if i ever get my hands on some super caps ;D

ist

im on another charger ... now im chargeing a cell fone battery and burning a jumbo super bright led 10mm and every 15 - 20 min it drops from 4.28 to 4.27 its only a 3.7v but the darn charger recharged it a bit much lol

this is a diffrent charger coil configuration im useing .1uf 250 v non polar cap and a 4401 db107

its putting out 300 and something volts.. ill build this into a charger battery pack too

it sure is compact ...

in watching this set up it apears to be more like 45 min or more b4 the battery drops .01 v lol ;D

it may be ballanceing and may not draw from the cell fone battery until the driveing battery goes week ;)

i did not mesure the consumption on the led but this is a big one ... the last time i did this same test it was a tiny one its probally drawing at least dubble the power from the battery last one was 3.7v at 32 miliamp 2 mm led ill check the miliamp on the led

odd i cant get a reading on the draw the led sure is bright .. tho ..messing around for 15 min with out being charged it only droped .01 v

i just changed the aa in this unit its now up to 10.96vdc last one was dead ..

just topped 11 v :)

and the other thing powering the 10mm led has not droped below 4.26 v yet its been 2 plus hours ....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sm0ky2 on July 25, 2009, 12:44:55 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on July 25, 2009, 12:21:30 AM
Smokey:

I did READ what you said. I also read the replies of good longtime members of this topic that appeared to take offense to what you wrote. I also read their responses. (And PM's) I was just very politely asking you to refrain from doing that again, no matter if it was intentional or not. As for jumping down your throat, I have now idea what you are talking about. I don't know how I could have said this any nicer.

Bill

Bill,.. regardless of wether or not i ever get mine to work, i think a thread with 855 pages speaks for itself. its obvious you guys are doing something with this device.

if someone misconstrued what i was saying, and took offense to it, they have some issues that have nothing to do with wether or not this device works.

what i was trying to say was, that MINE isnt working.. i never said that YOURS doesnt work, or that THEIRS doesnt work...
as if their LED lighting up wasnt proof enough for them that they need MY approval......

instead of arguing about a mute point, lets try to work together here.

i dont understand what im doing wrong here... i can design a multicore procesor, but a 3 component joule thief gives me trouble.... (shrugs)

[EDIT::] 1K resistor was too much, i used a 500 Ohm resistor and it turned on right away....
possibly my red LEDs have a lower resistance than the base circuit.

YAY!! i got it to work! - changed all the resistors, now i have 12 working joule thiefs, of varying core types. it works with cylinders, and even steel rings work with smaller wires and more turns.

i might try a simple Nail next....

oddly enough im reading only 1.3v across the diode.

.6v at the base resistor.

drawing 40ma

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 25, 2009, 12:51:01 PM

Yeay!! hooray!

Quote from: sm0ky2 on July 25, 2009, 12:44:55 AM

[EDIT::] 1K resistor was too much, i used a 500 Ohm resistor and it turned on right away....
possibly my red LEDs have a lower resistance than the base circuit.

mmm yes, reds are different.
One thing I have learned is that the bright whites are more like fluorescent bulbs with a led accent than real leds.

QuoteYAY!! i got it to work! - changed all the resistors, now i have 12 working joule thiefs, of varying core types. it works with cylinders, and even steel rings work with smaller wires and more turns.

Ha you sound like me. I have a couple dozen of these things and they all are a little different.

Quotei might try a simple Nail next....

oddly enough im reading only 1.3v across the diode.

.6v at the base resistor.

drawing 40ma

This sounds right.
The flyback is what is doing the work and making the magic.

Therefore, to take advantage of the flyback,

Make a secondary and use it to turn on your leds.
The red will need to go for this. It is probably going to go out anyway, but for now, just use the basic led spot to test your circuit to be sure it works.
The amperage draw will decrease as you add more leds to the secondary. (cool )

Once that is finished, start to explore the different kinds of secondary and primary/secondary configurations that have been discussed in this very long thread.

It (this long thread) will be a valuable resource for you from now on.

Congratulations Sm0ky2,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 25, 2009, 01:59:46 PM

well

i have decided to build my next unit ..

i have like 10 rings putting out over 200-300 vdc in a cap ... so im sick if winding configs for now .. i need to do something with them

first thing im gonna do is use those 3.6v cordless fone batteries that charge in 20 seconds... i will put 8 of them in a string to get close or over 30 vdc ... then i found a big cap from some old junk boards the cap is 35v 6800uf i want to cascade charge the batteries in like 2 min or less then have that cap able to dump at my lesure ... maybe through a burnt crystal diode spark gap

i do not have all the darn skills to whip it up like most the rest of you have .. so its trial and error for me

but i got the KICK ;D and when you all fully understand the kick ... youll all see what i have learned lol

;)

the kick is far more than free engery lol

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 25, 2009, 02:37:03 PM

Quote from: sm0ky2 on July 25, 2009, 12:44:55 AM

YAY!! i got it to work! - changed all the resistors, now i have 12 working joule thiefs, of varying core types. it works with cylinders, and even steel rings work with smaller wires and more turns.

Smokey

WoW ......... you have been busy

:)

It took me at least a month to get all those different JT cores running .

I am looking forward to seeing where you go with this next

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 25, 2009, 02:50:06 PM

@all

Hi everyone , you guys are keeping busy , i just finish catching up .

Ist nice spark , and you still managed greatness from failing unit ... keep it up !

Nice videos Jeanna , may i say you do have a nice voice , great work again .

Welcome Smokey , come on guys lest not get carried away form a misstep, anyway we all know there is everything but hoaxes around here , so really no harm ...

Again try pulsing 2 or 3 cores at once , then you can put a core dead short on a electrolytic cap and still get the high spikes from the other cores .

Keep the good work everyone .

I also made my catch up on you tube , some really interesting links

first lid motor with a jt pulse motor running from a cap and hall sensor switch .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WK8UEXOK-I&feature=channel_page

And also stark he has more jt video and started grey tube testing .
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheIronStark#play/uploads

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 25, 2009, 03:13:33 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on July 25, 2009, 12:22:29 AM
its all fun as long as we learn in the process..

im learning to figure it out ... as i go

plus im used to winding coils .. so it dont bother me ...

my chargers seam to work well even if i cant get the output to light a floro

easly they still rock the batteries ..

the shift i could build if i ever get my hands on some super caps ;D

ist

im on another charger ... now im chargeing a cell fone battery and burning a jumbo super bright led 10mm and every 15 - 20 min it drops from 4.28 to 4.27 its only a 3.7v but the darn charger recharged it a bit much lol

this is a diffrent charger coil configuration im useing .1uf 250 v non polar cap and a 4401 db107

its putting out 300 and something volts.. ill build this into a charger battery pack too

it sure is compact ...

in watching this set up it apears to be more like 45 min or more b4 the battery drops .01 v lol ;D

it may be ballanceing and may not draw from the cell fone battery until the driveing battery goes week ;)

i did not mesure the consumption on the led but this is a big one ... the last time i did this same test it was a tiny one its probally drawing at least dubble the power from the battery last one was 3.7v at 32 miliamp 2 mm led ill check the miliamp on the led

odd i cant get a reading on the draw the led sure is bright .. tho ..messing around for 15 min with out being charged it only droped .01 v

i just changed the aa in this unit its now up to 10.96vdc last one was dead ..

just topped 11 v :)

and the other thing powering the 10mm led has not droped below 4.26 v yet its been 2 plus hours ....

IST

I am working on a charger right now too .

Do you have a way to prevent overcharging yet ?

Once we get a little power out of these chargers I would think we would need to find a way to make sure that we are not frying our batterys .

I have thought of using the natural resonance ...... I have found that the power is in a narrow band .........if this band could be tuned for the right voltage ......the max power would happen only when the battery drops to a certain point . ........ If it drifted out of resonance as the battery reached full charge it might be self regulating .

Any thoughts about this ?

I am thinking of starting a new thread once I am ready to post about this charger ...... it does not exactly fit this thread because it will be 12V
I also think that we need a place for projects we do using JTs

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dllabarre on July 25, 2009, 04:15:35 PM

Hi

There are over 850 pages in this thread! WOW! ;D

Can someone point me to a schematic and parts list for the recent, best, working, what you guys & gal are using, Joule Thief?

Thanks
DonL

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 25, 2009, 04:27:59 PM

heres my latest contraption .. 8)

100 turns puckup 30 ga x style .. 2 turn jt 1 inch goldmine

1 db107 bridge 1 4004 diode 1 4401 transistor 1 pot and .22 uf 275v cap

out put 4.2v per turn

;D

420 1 of my numbers ;)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 25, 2009, 04:47:05 PM

Quote from: dllabarre on July 25, 2009, 04:15:35 PM
Hi

There are over 850 pages in this thread! WOW! ;D

Can someone point me to a schematic and parts list for the recent, best, working, what you guys & gal are using, Joule Thief?

Thanks
DonL

Sure,
Here is what I have been using since january.
2N3904 or 2N2222 transistor
Tor-23 toroid from allelectronics or Med 5/$1 electronicgoldmine.
1k pot.
battery holder
1.2v NiMH battery
Magwire for secondary
tel. wire cat-5 for JT primary

go to makezine as I told sm0ky2 for general how-to or read my instrux to him on the datalogging page, I think.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: infringer on July 25, 2009, 04:56:08 PM

Well if there is a self charging unit please do include me in would make an excellent night light...

Or maybe the manufacture of lite brite may want to create a unit with your device there are tons of applications oled tvs that run forever off of batteries muahahaha ok lol just joking there but anyhow I don't see where to go with this other then night lights which is good enough for me.

What is the max time anyone has ran led lights off of these units to spare me the long route?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 25, 2009, 05:11:53 PM

Well if there is a self charging unit please do include me in would make an excellent night light...

lol

funny you say that im just getting to that ... in this thred ;D lol

my 12v is cargeing still 11.13 its a slow crawl but its going ... i will close the loop on this simple unit .. ;)

to do this i will use a rechargeable battery as a close looped supply i will step down the 12vdc through a 12 -1.5 adaptor .. drop it in a cap or a battery ........ ;)

thats a few days away right now as i want it to charge from the dead or almost dead aa`s so far i have put 4 lower voltage batteries in to this unit i started at 7.1vdc in the 12v so i will make this unit im speeking about able to recharge for the first time from dead batteries ... then it can switch on the transformer lower the volts and feed my coil..

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 25, 2009, 05:13:52 PM

Quote from: infringer on July 25, 2009, 04:56:08 PM
... I don't see where to go with this other then night lights which is good enough for me.

What is the max time anyone has ran led lights off of these units to spare me the long route?

Remember infringer
lights are used in the night.
:D

You must have missed the posts of lighting fluorescent lights.
Mine lit a 18 inch tube for 5 1/4 hours which is most of the evening on one AA battery.
Xee2 told us his went for I think it was 10 or 11 hours. a 4 watt tube.

Both these things are too bright for overnight nite lights. They would keep you awake in the next room!

We are having a good time here, wanna join?

btw there is no good answer to your Q. A regular joule thief runs a dead battery out. How long depends on how dead the battery was.
Otherwise, a light run off the secondary can last for 20 hours.
20 lights the same.
They are really only using the transistor.
When the transistor uses up the battery they go out.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 25, 2009, 05:20:26 PM

Quote from: dllabarre on July 25, 2009, 04:15:35 PM
Hi

There are over 850 pages in this thread! WOW! ;D

Can someone point me to a schematic and parts list for the recent, best, working, what you guys & gal are using, Joule Thief?

Thanks
DonL

Don

Here are a few links

this one is for the 5 for $1 Toroids ..... they are a good place to start .

http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G6683

Here is a LED that I have got . They are not the brightest available but they are reasonable .

http://www.besthongkong.com/product_info.php?cPath=75_1_14&products_id=132

The schematic below is for what I have used as a basic JT all along .
The dots by the coil ends are to mark the start of the windings
This is important ...... if it is not hooked up start of one wire with the end of the other it will not work .

I suggest you use a pot in place of the resistor .
With your first JT it does not matter ........when you are trying lots of thing it becomes very important .

Once you get a JT to work you can start on secondarys .....or getting more power . .......or lighting more LEDs ..

The schematic shows a 2N3904 transistor a 2N2222 works well too .
My favorate transistor so far is 2N3055

good luck

:)

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 25, 2009, 05:43:50 PM

i dont know anything bout thease cordless fone rechargeables i have here but they really charge up fast
i only used 2

then to the big cap the big cap fills damm fast!!

and those little batteries get charged to like a lot more than they should be i know this in bout 10 - 15 seconds im pushing 30 volts out the string to the big cap and they keep riseing ..

probally not safe but who knows i might try the 12vdc 3.6 ah on this setup off the 35v 6800uf cap

see what it does ...

ist!

ok what ever im doing here is dammmmmmm intresting ... ill build a compleate unit then video it

it charges the 12 v faster in this unit than the last one ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dllabarre on July 25, 2009, 05:48:27 PM

Thanks @Jeanna & @Gary for the instructions, schematics and URLs

DonL

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 25, 2009, 06:16:51 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on July 25, 2009, 05:43:50 PM
i dont know anything bout thease cordless fone rechargeables i have here but they really charge up fast
i only used 2

then to the big cap the big cap fills damm fast!!

and those little batteries get charged to like a lot more than they should be i know this in bout 10 - 15 seconds im pushing 30 volts out the string to the big cap and they keep riseing ..

probally not safe but who knows i might try the 12vdc 3.6 ah on this setup off the 35v 6800uf cap

see what it does ...

ist!

ok what ever im doing here is dammmmmmm intresting ... ill build a compleate unit then video it

it charges the 12 v faster in this unit than the last one ...

IST

before you try that you might want to check U tube
I saw a few videos a few years ago of people blowing up cell phone batterys .
Some of them blew them up by connecting them to a car battery

They go off like an M80
they also have a metal case .......so shrapnel is very likely

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 25, 2009, 06:36:34 PM

Quote from: infringer on July 25, 2009, 04:56:08 PM
Well if there is a self charging unit please do include me in would make an excellent night light...

Or maybe the manufacture of lite brite may want to create a unit with your device there are tons of applications oled tvs that run forever off of batteries muahahaha ok lol just joking there but anyhow I don't see where to go with this other then night lights which is good enough for me.

What is the max time anyone has ran led lights off of these units to spare me the long route?

Infringer

Are you just looking for a small light that will run a very long time ...... maybe many years ?

That is pretty simple .

The JT is all about flyback ... ( BEMF )
I read somewhere that a flyback pulse can be 3 times the original voltage .
With Jts we can't tripple our voltage with one pulse ........but we can add up our gains

I have been using my LM coils wired in series with a JT coil to buld up bigger pulses .
I start by connecting several LM coils secondarys in series with the output of my JT
I use the secondarys because there is more inductance there than in the primarys
The primarys of these coils can be hooked up in parrallel to provide feedback

A while back Jesus made a self charger ....... it is a great help for this ...... it has 4 dioded and a cap ....... just connect all your feefback wires to one side of the cap or the other.

Most of my expermenting I use an array of diodes ...... the first time I got a self charger to work I was running a 60 LED array ....... the array was lit brightly and both the battery voltage and the output voltage were going up ........ It took 9 extra coils to achieve that .

My best so far ......I have lit up a 90 LED array to full brightness and self charged with only 4 extra coils ......
Still working on getting is smaller

:)

I said I start by hooking up the secondarys ...... you can only hook up so many secondarys before you choke your whole circuit ........so when that happens take one or 2 off .....and hook some up by the primarys ( less inductance ) .........the secondays provide better feedback this way.

In general ...... flyback seems to provide higher voltage ........feedback helps with the power .

To make a LED or 2 light up for months you should only need 1 or 2 extra coils .......

Happy JTing

:)

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 25, 2009, 08:11:42 PM

ill share something with you all to try to help tune you in to how i have seen the universe at work ..

just now i was digging in 1 of my boxes of things i have collected over time and built ... :)

and i pull out an older tpu design ... and for some reason ..... lol lol it is STUCK TO THIS FLY BACK UNIT ... ILL POST THE PIC....

but youll love it ... this kinda thing happins to me ALL THE TIME .. ;D ;)

anyhow it was the iron garden wire hooked right around the transistor after the shocky diode and cap b4 the tv fly back ...

lol lol lol

this place earth is a misterious place ..

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 25, 2009, 08:48:49 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on July 25, 2009, 06:36:34 PM
Infringer

Are you just looking for a small light that will run a very long time ...... maybe many years ?

That is pretty simple .

The JT is all about flyback ... ( BEMF )
I read somewhere that a flyback pulse can be 3 times the original voltage .
With Jts we can't tripple our voltage with one pulse ........but we can add up our gains

I have been using my LM coils wired in series with a JT coil to buld up bigger pulses .
I start by connecting several LM coils secondarys in series with the output of my JT
I use the secondarys because there is more inductance there than in the primarys
The primarys of these coils can be hooked up in parrallel to provide feedback

A while back Jesus made a self charger ....... it is a great help for this ...... it has 4 dioded and a cap ....... just connect all your feefback wires to one side of the cap or the other.

Most of my expermenting I use an array of diodes ...... the first time I got a self charger to work I was running a 60 LED array ....... the array was lit brightly and both the battery voltage and the output voltage were going up ........ It took 9 extra coils to achieve that .

My best so far ......I have lit up a 90 LED array to full brightness and self charged with only 4 extra coils ......
Still working on getting is smaller

:)

I said I start by hooking up the secondarys ...... you can only hook up so many secondarys before you choke your whole circuit ........so when that happens take one or 2 off .....and hook some up by the primarys ( less inductance ) .........the secondays provide better feedback this way.

In general ...... flyback seems to provide higher voltage ........feedback helps with the power .

To make a LED or 2 light up for months you should only need 1 or 2 extra coils .......

Happy JTing

:)

gary

I thought I should add that even though the power is there for a self charging system .......it is still not a cut and dry situation
The problem is resonance .
There is plenty of power when the JT is in resonance ........the problem is ..... the efficiency drops when it drifts out of resonance .......so .....to keep it running it has to be adjusted slightly every once in a while . ....... just enough to get it back into resonance .

I am working on ways to keep it going on its own .
The gas discharge tube that Xee found may be a way to prevent over voltage ...... but I am looking for other ways ...... spark gaps change over time .......and make radio noise ......so I hope to find something else . .....

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sm0ky2 on July 25, 2009, 11:10:52 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 25, 2009, 12:51:01 PM

mmm yes, reds are different.

jeanna

out of desperation/frustration i had to get 'old school' on this thing, and went through analyzing every piece of the circuit. I discovered that the transistor wasn't comming on at all, it was just bypassed by the lower ohm LED path.

my simple V-check across the legs was decieving me....

it was good to learn that the base resistance needs to be lower than the LED path, this may help others in the future if they try to use these hardcore LED's and get stuck like i did. - which im probably going to do away with, because their current draw is too much to operate from my Earth Battery (what got me into the JT to begin with)..

i guess i'll pay Radio-Shack a visit and pick up some small LEDs
( or maybe just pimp out my EB some more....)

jeanna,
when you said to use a 'secondary' and run more LEDs, did you mean a "second secondary" ?? like a separate coil around the original JT, to pick up more juice?

and if so, is this ran in parallel with the first 2 coils? or not connected to them at all?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 25, 2009, 11:31:30 PM

Quote from: sm0ky2 on July 25, 2009, 11:10:52 PM

jeanna,
when you said to use a 'secondary' and run more LEDs, did you mean a "second secondary" ?? like a separate coil around the original JT, to pick up more juice?

The bifilar is actually the primary.

It is drawn as though it were a primary and secondary. I assume that is so it can be made clear with the dots that the thing is center tapped.

The secondary is an additional wire that wraps through the toroid a bunch of times and which is not electrically connected to the joule thief.
It is magnetically connected, though.

So, it is the magic part because it is the transformer part. Whatever the primary pair does the secondary will respond magnetically, which makes the electricity bla bla.

So,
plan to have between 4 and 6 turns for each led you want to light. There will be no extra draw, and most of the time there will be less draw if you only use the secondary to light the lights.

On my clipboard as I write this, I have a link I just picked up for jesus who just asked me this same question on the ac page. I will drop off a copy for you too.

Have a look
This is me lighting 6 leds.
The berry has 40 turns. You can see the 6 leds from the secondary and the one from the primary. (often that one will go out, but I take it out now because it uses extra power.)

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6942.msg161452#msg161452 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6942.msg161452#msg161452)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 26, 2009, 12:44:36 AM

@ sm0ky2

Pirate88179 lit several hundred LEDs with his EB. I think he made a video of it. You will need to do some searching since I do not have any links.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 26, 2009, 01:26:55 AM

It was almost a week ago that I went to Home Depot and bought 2 globe style pull switch lamps and a 4 watt fluoro tube.

I lit the tube tonight.
I think I will start fresh tomorrow and make sure I time it properly with a fresh battery.
The light is significantly less than the 8 watt fluoro and even more less ;) than the 18 inch 15watt.
Then, I took a look at the globe with a spotlight 3-led inside it.
The 3 leds in the globe seem almost as bright as the 4 watt.
I think it makes sense to make some good bright light substitutes for the hall.
I took a couple of pics of the 2 together and alone. The light shed all around the lamp seems to extend farther with the leds in the globe to me.

I like leds.
It is so interesting that we do not see the blue but the camera does.
Notice how much of the cloth under the globe is reflecting the light. I think that is the best way to calculate how bright it is compared to the other.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sm0ky2 on July 26, 2009, 01:35:58 AM

Quote from: xee2 on July 26, 2009, 12:44:36 AM
@ sm0ky2

Pirate88179 lit several hundred LEDs with his EB. I think he made a video of it. You will need to do some searching since I do not have any links.

yeah, his EB and LED's are a different than mine.

my EB is an 'old fashion' type, very small, very close together built soley for the purpose of assisting in data collection and testing.

my LEDs are 'hefty' and draw entirely too much current for that type of EB.
even with the joule thief.

my EB only gets 1/10th of the necessary output current to light the type of LEDs im using. ( 3ma vs 30ma needed)

i built the joule thief cause pirate said it might help boost the EB
which im sure it does, just not enough for these big red LEDs

even my JT had to be modified from the normal specs to make it work with them.
i CAN however light 10 (possibly more) with a single AA cell and my joule thiefs.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 26, 2009, 02:04:30 AM

Well Pirate lit hundreds of leds with a fuji camera joule thief. Yes it counts, but it is way more powerful than the one you just made.

Also, the leds that are super-brights have an amount of phosphors in them to make the blue led into a white one. the phosphors are reacting to the high frequency like a fluorescent bulb.

But your red one is a diode, and it is restricting the energy as all diodes do. These super brights are a different kind of light from the diode light.
I think Radio Shack has super brights too. It would be a good idea to find them, because that is the next step...
Winding a secondary and using that to light the superbrights.

I have not been trying to get my EB to light leds. I should, but I keep not thinking of it in the daylight. So, I am sort of in the same spot of not having an EB light any leds.

Did your voltage go over 1 volt yet?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sm0ky2 on July 26, 2009, 02:34:10 AM

Quote from: jeanna on July 26, 2009, 02:04:30 AM

Did your voltage go over 1 volt yet?

jeanna

nope, its been holding steady at (0.66v - 0.68v) for the past 2 days. current is rising as time goes by, but not as fast as my impatience would like to have it ... im about to dig up 1 of the electrodes and move it further away. this will of course take me off the magnetic lines a bit, 67-degrees inclination, i need pipe that goes halfway to china on the north end to go across the yard....

to get more voltage i may need more surface area, which means more electrodes, or bigger ones.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 26, 2009, 02:43:36 AM

@ All:

Here is a repost of my video where I am lighting 4 ultrabright leds from the EB. I am using here also a 10F supercap:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4gRDwPqSz4

This is from a while ago and it is the most basic type of JT circuit you can make. Goldmine 1" toroid, 1k resistor, 2N3904 transistor 22 ga. bifilar, stranded wire and the EB.

Each of these ultrabright LEDs are rated at 26,000 MCD and need at least 3.5-4 vdc and 40 mA's each to light. These are very bright and are the 10mm size and not the small ones.

The secret was the use of the supercap. As most of you know, I went on from here to light many things frm my EB but, now that I finally looked at my scope shots...I can see that the supercaps capture the spikes and store them as real power.

This is how I was able to fully charge my 2.3 volt, 650F supercap even though my DMM said I was only getting 1.95 vdc. It is the spikes that are doing it, and many others here have done this as well.

As most of you that know me know, my background is in mechanical engineering and machining. I am no electronics wiz by any means. A lot of this I stumbled upon and I also had a lot of help from all of you good folks here.

As Jeanna said, all of my "big" lighting experiments using the EB for the source (400 5mm leds, and a 48" floro tube) came from using my modified Fuji circuit. While this technically (in my mind anyway) is a JT circuit, it does not compare to what many of you have been able to wind by hand. A lot of you have surpassed my output from the Fuji with your wound toroids and secondaries and very advanced circuits.

So, I did not post anything dealing with that but if anyone is interested, they can check my Youtube channel to see my vids. (I think I have 38 of them there now)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 26, 2009, 02:50:42 AM

Quote from: sm0ky2 on July 26, 2009, 02:34:10 AM
nope, its been holding steady at (0.66v - 0.68v) for the past 2 days. current is rising as time goes by, but not as fast as my impatience would like to have it ... im about to dig up 1 of the electrodes and move it further away. this will of course take me off the magnetic lines a bit, 67-degrees inclination, i need pipe that goes halfway to china on the north end to go across the yard....

to get more voltage i may need more surface area, which means more electrodes, or bigger ones.

Here is a hint from my experience for what it is worth. You can take 2 nails of different material and get volts...volts are easy. I think, again from experience, it is the surface area that give more mA's or even amps eventually.

My first EB got like 1.6 vdc but hardly any mA's. I experimented and went from there. This last year with my upgrade from the 3 magnesium fire starter blocks on the south side to a 5 lb block of magnesium in their place, did not give me more volts BUT, it really did juice up the amps. I also moved my set-up eletrodes another 5 feet apart. I could easily be wrong about this but as long as you are at least 5-10' apart, I don't think another 5 feet or so will make all that much difference. It will help but, the other stuff is more important first in my opinion. (materials, alignment, mass/surface area, etc.)
Bill

***EDIT*** In other words, if I were rich, I would have a 55 gallon drum sized rod of carbon and another similar sized block of mag. I would be willing to bet that my volts would still be in the 1.95-2.00 range but, I'll bet the mA's would be serious.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 26, 2009, 02:53:25 AM

@ sm0ky2

Quote from: sm0ky2 on July 26, 2009, 02:34:10 AM
nope, its been holding steady at (0.66v - 0.68v)

Most transistors will work in JT with a 0.60 volt battery. Try putting a large capacitor in parallel with your EB. Germanium transistors will work down to battery voltages of 0.3 volts. I have suggested using them but no one seeems to have posted much data about any results. Gadgetmall has apparently gotten good results with them.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: oscar on July 26, 2009, 03:01:39 AM

Hi jeanna,

I saw your two vids which you published at
http://www.youtube.com/user/jeannacav
showing wireless signal/energy transmission from a JT to a Stubblefield coil.
The signal from the JT is transmitted through air.

An experiment which I describe here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7769.msg193504#msg193504
makes me believe, that if you dig the Stubblefield coil into soil/sand and the JT as well, so that both are next to each other, both being embedded in the same hard insulating medium, the Stubblefield coil will pick up a much stronger signal.

This prediction is based on my theory that the transmitted signal is an electrostatic signal (pressure waves at ultra high frequency), and such a signal will best travel through a hard and dense insulator (sand or dry soil or ideally stone or a crystal).

edit: I just realize that I should have probably posted this in the thread
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=4455
"Stubblefield coils (bifilar) and speculations"

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sm0ky2 on July 26, 2009, 03:07:06 AM

They couldn't have given this device a better name.

because i feel like a Stole something !!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 26, 2009, 03:21:22 AM

Quote from: sm0ky2 on July 26, 2009, 03:07:06 AM
They couldn't have given this device a better name.

because i feel like a Stole something !!!!

Smokey:

Nice work! If I counted right that's 19 leds from a single AA battery....correct? Well, your not supposed to be able to do that so, this is where the real fun starts. You can show your friends and try to get them to light just ONE led from an AA and they can't. Yes, Joule Thief is an excellent name.

As Jeanna will tell you....the difference in led brightness does not seem to diminish much with 1 or 2 leds, or 10 or 20.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sm0ky2 on July 26, 2009, 03:35:56 AM

Quote from: xee2 on July 26, 2009, 02:53:25 AM
@ sm0ky2

Most transistors will work in JT with a 0.60 volt battery. Try putting a large capacitor in parallel with your EB. Germanium transistors will work down to battery voltages of 0.3 volts. I have suggested using them but no one seeems to have posted much data about any results. Gadgetmall has apparently gotten good results with them.

the cap was my first instinct, but the 3904 isnt wanting to turn on with 0.6v neither is the 3906. i believe these are the smallest that i have available at the moment.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sm0ky2 on July 26, 2009, 03:37:00 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on July 26, 2009, 03:21:22 AM
Smokey:

Nice work! If I counted right that's 19 leds from a single AA battery....correct? Well, your not supposed to be able to do that so, this is where the real fun starts. You can show your friends and try to get them to light just ONE led from an AA and they can't. Yes, Joule Thief is an excellent name.

As Jeanna will tell you....the difference in led brightness does not seem to diminish much with 1 or 2 leds, or 10 or 20.

Bill

thanks! we may yet redefine electrical theory with this thing.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 26, 2009, 03:51:47 AM

Quote from: sm0ky2 on July 26, 2009, 03:37:00 AM
thanks! we may yet redefine electrical theory with this thing.

Now you are talking! Let's do it.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 26, 2009, 04:29:28 AM

Quote from: sm0ky2 on July 26, 2009, 03:35:56 AM
the cap was my first instinct, but the 3904 isnt wanting to turn on with 0.6v neither is the 3906. i believe these are the smallest that i have available at the moment.

I have tested the 2N3055 down to 0.55 volt battery. But, the toroid and numbers of turns may make a difference also. I think a cap in parallel with battery is good idea at these low voltages.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 26, 2009, 10:20:34 AM

i just put a 33 ohm resistor on the pos side of the battery ... my out put went from 240vdc to 15v .......

hummmmm

i wound 2 50 turn coils .. 2 jt

ill fill the ring with 50 turn coils split at the half way point

ist!

from 1 coil i can get 5 diffrent voltage readings ..

165 v 100v 54.9v 16.5v 177v

all from a 50 turn coil ...

i found 2 the same cell fone batteries ..i will hook them up to a charger ring so i can have 7.4 v supply to use with a 3055 from a aa

ill do this today ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on July 26, 2009, 11:29:26 AM

@all

So hard to keep up with you all :) I have been so busy with work that I have not had time to post! Keep up the great work everyone!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dllabarre on July 26, 2009, 11:32:06 AM

I'm just trying to understand this JT circuit in detail.
Why do we use a Toroid instead of a straight ferrite core coil?

Why do some people use 2 of the same size wire to wind the Toroid and some people use different sized wire? What is the different effect?

Thanks,
DonL

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 26, 2009, 02:01:57 PM

@ dllabarre

Quote from: dllabarre on July 26, 2009, 11:32:06 AM
I'm just trying to understand this JT circuit in detail.

Then I think you have come to the right place. There are over 800 pages here of tests, explanations, and opinions.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 26, 2009, 02:02:00 PM

Quote from: dllabarre on July 26, 2009, 11:32:06 AM
I'm just trying to understand this JT circuit in detail.
Why do we use a Toroid instead of a straight ferrite core coil?

Why do some people use 2 of the same size wire to wind the Toroid and some people use different sized wire? What is the different effect?

Thanks,
DonL

Don

Pretty much anything can be used as a core for a JT
A toroid is used because it keeps the magnetic flux within itself .
With a solenoid type of coil the magnetic flux has to leave one end of the coil travel through the air back to the other end of the coil . .........in theory this is much less efficient .

The people here all follow their own understanding.
They learn different things about the JT ......they have different prioritys .
A well made well tuned solenoid style JT might out preform a toroid based JT that is not so well tuned .
I started expermenting with non toroid JTs after spending some time researching toroid s and where to buy them . The information on toroids is limited and hard to understand .
I decided that the ideal JT would be one without a toroid that others may or may not be able to get .

The wire size thing may be do to many factors
A common reason for using a particular wire is because that wire is on hand .
I use a twisted pair of wire from a cat5 cable for most of my primarys ..... because I have plenty of that kind of wire .......and it works for me .....

A couple of reasons for using larger wire is if you are planning on using higher power .........or if resistance is an issue . I have found that resistance is more of an issue on the coil going to the transistor base than the other coil .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 26, 2009, 02:43:11 PM

Quote from: sm0ky2 on July 26, 2009, 03:07:06 AM
They couldn't have given this device a better name.

because i feel like a Stole something !!!!

Smoky

I remember the feeling :)

Really it is more like you found something that was stolen from us .

This kind of stuff should be taught to our kids in school .......but if you ask someone that is " educated " in electronics they will tell you what we are doing is impossible .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 26, 2009, 02:49:42 PM

Wow,
What an active crowd today!

I just want to add a couple of pieces.

Xee2,
I am going to try again, but so far I have not been able to get the germanium to turn on the jt using the EB. That is the reason for my silence. I tried the parallel cap supercap like Bill's first red led last year, and still no.

After that failure I moved the probes and I am thankful for the reminder. I keep forgetting to go out to set this up during the day.

@All,
I have started to time the 4 inch fluoro tube. I am giving it 10 hours of leeway since xee2's lasted that long. I will report tonight when it is out.

@Gary,
I always wondered if part of Bill's immediate success was because he used that really fat wire along with the cap.
My new EB has speaker wire which is fairly thick too.

@DonL,
I agree with xee2,
You have come to the right place.
Please read the thread, because there is such a wealth here.
I have read the whole thread up to page ~350, 3 times. It is an easy and enjoyable read, and full of valuable information.

@Sm0ky2,
I had trouble with the 3055. I had 2 of them so it wasn't the transistor.
It turned out to be a combination of things for me.
The number of turns,
The resistance of the base resistor
There was a cap needed. I was not in the habit of using a cap to help get the system going. But it is with this set-up.

Now, thanks to the difficulty you had, there is one more thing i/we can add to our ways of making this work. - a pearl of wisdom.

@ist

Quotei just put a 33 ohm resistor on the pos side of the battery ... my out put went from 240vdc to 15v .......

Yes, in fact I am using a 33 ohm resistor right at that spot to keep from blinding myself with my ac from secondary experiments. It makes a very big difference!
I think this goes together with the fat wire thing.

Fat wires have much less resistance.
In playing with the sliders at barrys coilgun site, it quickly becomes clear that the frequency and volts out and the general success of a RLC is dependent on keeping the resistance low.
Good discovery. I am glad you shared it.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 26, 2009, 03:23:31 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on July 26, 2009, 02:49:42 PM
Xee2,
I am going to try again, but so far I have not been able to get the germanium to turn on the jt using the EB. That is the reason for my silence. I tried the parallel cap supercap like Bill's first red led last year, and still no.

What is the part number of the germanium transistor you are using. I will try to find a data sheet. If you have a data sheet can you post it? They have lower gain than silicon transistors and so you will need a lower base resistor value. I have not made one so I have only guesses. Maybe Gadgetmall can help you.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 26, 2009, 03:49:39 PM

Smoky

Just a little tip about taking pictures .

I assume you are using a simple digital camera .....the point and shoot kind .
Everything should be in focus .
The reason that everything is out of focus is called camera shake .
When you push the button you are also pushing the camera a little .....it causes the camera to pivot as you take the picture .
A way around this is to place your finger on the button and your thumb directly opposite your finger on the other side of the camera and gently "pinch " the camera when you want to take a picture .
When you pinch the camera the forces are in line .......so no camera pivoting .......your pictures will come out much clearer .

:)

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 26, 2009, 04:02:00 PM

The GDT sparkgaps work. But, they are not as good as a real spark gap. However, they are easy to use at low currents and voltages.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 26, 2009, 04:07:17 PM

Woah, that is interesting.
I wonder where we can get them without so much internal resistance?
That is a good amount of multiplier effect, xee2. Thanks. EDIT: Oh now I see. I missed the 6 to 60, I guess it isn't so good afterall!

here, I try again:

Quote from: xee2 on July 26, 2009, 03:23:31 PM
@ jeanna

What is the part number of the germanium transistor you are using. I will try to find a data sheet. If you have a data sheet can you post it? They have lower gain than silicon transistors and so you will need a lower base resistor value. I have not made one so I have only guesses. Maybe Gadgetmall can help you.

He did give me the datasheet. It must be here somewhere... ;)
2N1308
I am about to solder it to something real, so I can just put it out there.
How much of a part do you think the gain plays here?
I was pretty sure it was the switching that made it all happen.
It is way too bright at 118 ohm, so I think I will keep it there. I can get 1 more volt when looking through the secondary, but, I won't be using that secondary for now.
It is a small secondary and I am getting 17volts, so it should light 4 lights well, but for this, I will use the BJTL spot, because, IT is what can use the very low voltages.
I am sure it will work.
I will let you know.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 26, 2009, 04:12:11 PM

@all

Now if we go back to 1/4 wave length , i assume that most of hour house hold electronic
Are made to work on the 60 or 50 hz or there transformer are so we only need to activate the transformer , maybe it would be really easy to get those to work , maybe start with a light bulb...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 26, 2009, 04:23:44 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on July 26, 2009, 04:07:17 PM
It is way too bright at 118 ohm, so I think I will keep it there.

It seems you already have it working. Have you checked to see how low the battery voltage can go?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 26, 2009, 04:32:04 PM

@ jeanna

I found a data sheet. It says it should work at 0.35 volts for sure and maybe less. Specs look OK.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 26, 2009, 04:42:05 PM

@ jeanna

You will probably need to increase your base resistor value for the EB because it can not supply much current.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 26, 2009, 05:16:22 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on July 24, 2009, 10:28:33 PM
yep it did lite the flro but i BLEW UP my coil ... lol

made you a youtube video ...

BULB WAS BRIGHT WITH OUT TOUCHING IT ...

got some arking now lol

here is the video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psRWo7wwtK0

ist!

Thats great stuff. Now make the spark intentional and see what we can do!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 26, 2009, 05:25:43 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 26, 2009, 04:42:05 PM
@ jeanna

You will probably need to increase your base resistor value for the EB because it can not supply much current.

Oh darn,
I just soldered it up and got it out there and no go. I can look right into the yellowish phosphors.

@All,
Has anybody ever make one of these light withOUT a cap in parallel with the battery?
Bill, I don't think you did
Jim, I think ditto,
Anybody else?
Gadget, a battery cap?

Before I went out I found the very dead duracell which has never recovered from 0.61v which I keep for this purpose, and it turned the led right on.
The dmm says there is 0.983v today.

I will resolder it with a higher value resistor, if that will make it work without a cap, because that would be worth knowing. Otherwise, I will redo those diodes from the other night.

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 26, 2009, 06:43:55 PM

@ jeanna

I do not have a power supply so I can not set the voltages I use. Like you I have to find a battery with a low voltage. But there is another alternative. Put a variable resistor in series with a good battery at the positive end and adjust it while hooked up to JT until the voltage between the negative end of the battery and the positive end of the resistor is 0.35 volts (or what ever you want). Then change your base resistor and readjust the variable resistor in series with the battery to again get the correct voltage. A bit of trouble, but may save you time in the long run.

EDIT: variable resistor should be 0 - 100 ohms

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 26, 2009, 06:59:59 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 26, 2009, 05:25:43 PM
Oh darn,
I just soldered it up and got it out there and no go. I can look right into the yellowish phosphors.

@All,
Has anybody ever make one of these light withOUT a cap in parallel with the battery?
Bill, I don't think you did
Jim, I think ditto,
Anybody else?
Gadget, a battery cap?

Before I went out I found the very dead duracell which has never recovered from 0.61v which I keep for this purpose, and it turned the led right on.
The dmm says there is 0.983v today.

I will resolder it with a higher value resistor, if that will make it work without a cap, because that would be worth knowing. Otherwise, I will redo those diodes from the other night.

thanks,

jeanna

Jeanna:

Not to my knowledge but think about it. Even a small led still needs 3+ vdc and some mA's, like maybe 20 to light and the simple EER that a lot of us have done do not output that high. This is why, of course, I went with the JT on the EER (Earth Energy Receiver) for the high volts as we all have learned here, the leds like volts if high enough and do not really need mA's. Now Kapandze can fry thousands of leds I am sure, ha ha.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 26, 2009, 07:02:43 PM

Good idea, xee2.

Thank you.

I just made the alterations on the cap with diodes, so now, I can do this excellent plan... when it cools a little.

I do remember gadget using very high resistor values.
Maybe the fact that he used these transistors is the reason it worked so well for him.

Thank you,

jeanna

EDIT
Light's out.
So, the 4 watt stayed on for exactly 6 hours 10AM to 4PM
I will measure the kill voltage (edit .935v on batt when light went out) then switch to the plain solenoid style for some long burning.

j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 26, 2009, 07:08:52 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on July 26, 2009, 07:02:43 PM
Good idea, xee2.

I added drawing to previous post. Hope that helps.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sm0ky2 on July 26, 2009, 07:17:12 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 26, 2009, 04:29:28 AM
I have tested the 2N3055 down to 0.55 volt battery. But, the toroid and numbers of turns may make a difference also. I think a cap in parallel with battery is good idea at these low voltages.

the type of capacitor makes a huge difference. a lot of the ones i have eat 100% of the power trying to charge up, and while they are in the circuit i get 0 readings from my EB.
over a long time those caps will charge up to 0.6 but discharge almost instantly and thus are pointless..

ive managed to hook in a small cap, and i can maintain the voltage, but its not benefiting me in any way that i can notice.

think i have some 3054/3055 's around here somewhere
i'll give it a try.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 26, 2009, 07:29:43 PM

@ sm0ky2

Quote from: sm0ky2 on July 26, 2009, 07:17:12 PM
but discharge almost instantly and thus are pointless..

I think you ae having same problem as jeanna - you need to reduce the current draw of JT by increasing the base resistor value. Pirate uses really big capacitors and charges them overnight. That way he has enough power saved up to run the JT for a while.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 26, 2009, 08:03:28 PM

Quote from: stprue on July 26, 2009, 05:16:22 PM
Thats great stuff. Now make the spark intentional and see what we can do!

hiya bros

love your little comments you crack me up

;D

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sm0ky2 on July 26, 2009, 08:24:45 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 26, 2009, 07:08:52 PM
@ jeanna

I added drawing to previous post. Hope that helps.

i believe this will adjust your current. the voltage (minus the drop across the resistor) should stay relatively the same.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sm0ky2 on July 26, 2009, 08:30:05 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 26, 2009, 07:29:43 PM
@ sm0ky2

I think you ae having same problem as jeanna - you need to reduce the current draw of JT by increasing the base resistor value. Pirate uses really big capacitors and charges them overnight. That way he has enough power saved up to run the JT for a while.

kind of a catch-22, i had to reduce the base resistor to make JT work with my big red LED-diodes

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 26, 2009, 08:36:05 PM

@ sm0ky2

Quote from: sm0ky2 on July 26, 2009, 08:24:45 PM
i believe this will adjust your current. the voltage (minus the drop across the resistor) should stay relatively the same.

It will change both. You will need to change both base resistor value and variable resistor values until you get the desired voltage and current.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 26, 2009, 08:39:45 PM

@ sm0ky2

Quote from: sm0ky2 on July 26, 2009, 08:30:05 PM
kind of a catch-22, i had to reduce the base resistor to make JT work with my big red LED-diodes

Sometimes there are limits to what you can do with what you have.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 26, 2009, 09:06:53 PM

Quote from: sm0ky2 on July 26, 2009, 08:30:05 PM
kind of a catch-22, i had to reduce the base resistor to make JT work with my big red LED-diodes

Hi sm0ky2,
I think this is only a method to find the best resistor value for the lowest possible input voltage.
I am pretty sure the battery voltage pot is just a tool to simulate the lower voltage of the EB.
I think the cap is what will address the turn-on current need of the system, but once oscillating, this optimizing of the base resistor for low current draw may keep it on. I am hoping.

I totally forgot that Bill left his in place for a while.
I believe I have not given it enough time.

Soon, it will be cool enough to venture out. After my coffee. 8)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sm0ky2 on July 26, 2009, 09:55:29 PM

Jeanna,

( i know this is the wrong thread for this, but they seem to be kind of intermingled anyways)

i managed to stretch my EB apart from 1.5ft out to 7ft apart.
the voltage pretty much stayed the same. but my current dropped back down to 2.5ma. i may have to let it get settled in again to see if it goes up higher than before, but my preliminary tests dont show much diference, if any, between 1.5ft spacing and 7ft.

i guess i dont have any 3055s, so i have to go transistor-shopping to find something that will turn on with .6v

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sm0ky2 on July 26, 2009, 10:06:02 PM

i took dudes advice and hooked up a 2k trim-pot in place of the base resistor, so i can adjust it now.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 26, 2009, 10:14:14 PM

@ sm0ky2

Here is a trick that is used to get high voltages for atom smashers. Charge up 2 capacitors in parallel then put them in series. That will give you twice the voltage. So you could have a switch that you put in one position for parallel charging overnight and in anouther position for series capacitors to run JT. Then you would have a 1.2 volt power source from a 0.6 volt EB.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 26, 2009, 10:21:04 PM

im building this 50 turn coil i started this morn ..

9 coils of 50 turns output is 100 - 150v so far x 9 with 914 switching diodes a rectifiers ..

9 of them 36 diodes ..

next are the caps i want to see if i can get 9 feeds dc in caps from a REAL SIMPLE coil

all 50 turn coils are RS 30 gage magnet wire

primarry jt is 2 turn cat 5

ist..

4401 transistor ill finish the bridges then post a pic ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sm0ky2 on July 26, 2009, 10:21:20 PM

while the trim-pot was a GREAT idea,...

it gives me much frustration.

the 4401 transistor cuts on at 0.71v
3604 chimes in right around 0.74v
my EB gives me 0.66v with no resistor

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 26, 2009, 10:22:10 PM

Quote from: sm0ky2 on July 26, 2009, 09:55:29 PM

i guess i dont have any 3055s, so i have to go transistor-shopping to find something that will turn on with .6v

I had the most trouble with the 3055.
It was extremely hard to get it to turn on.
Even now, I only use on the big 3 1/3" toroid for use with very high voltage and low frequency (5.6KHz) oscillations.

My toroids are quick. I get from 50-200KHz in a simple bifilar wrap done just like the makezine video. No fancy stuff.
that is with a
2N3904 or a
2N2222
Either one is great.

I do not know why so many people start off using the 3055.

There are certainly times to use it, but the 3904 and 2222 are perfect switching transistors for this job.

It might be a good idea for you to get some toroids that you know something about.
I say this for purely selfish reasons.
My big thing (after finding out how things work) is to spread this to everyone for free and soon.
In my idea, the easiest way to do that is to make it simple and easy to start up.
So, since so many folks have settled on the 5/$1 and you can get other toroids at electronicgoldmine.com while you are there, I suggest getting a pack of them and look around. there is a minimum order there, but for the reasons of being standard, it is a good place for you to go shopping.

They probably have supercaps too. A supercap got Bills simple led to light without any jt. Not me, yet. ..

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sm0ky2 on July 26, 2009, 10:48:13 PM

do you know the cut-on voltage of the 2222?

i dont have any, but i need to find something that will turn on with my EB. (which is why i was thinking about the 3054/3055)
i know they can handle a lot more pass-through voltage, but its the turn-on v that im concerned about here.
as my EB just doesnt quite make it for the 4401

i have no way of measuring frequency, but i know for a fact my toriods can handle up to the Mhz range, as that's what they are designed to do. (and in fact were doing, before i stole their windings off and wound my own)

also i hooked in a normal AA and a button-cell (1.5v) into a JT with a 1K Ohm resistor and it works fine with either,
so that means my rechargables that only go up to 1.3v need less resistance.

it was NOT the LEDs like i had thought. even though the reds measure less resstance across the terminals than the white and green, this doesnt seem to affect the turn-on of the transistor or the operation of the JT at all.....

caps - i have lots of caps of every imaginable type, in many different sizes.
though i couldnt for the life of me identify any of them....

i know the gels are 'electrolytic', but thats about it..

i dont know much about the others, most likely some of the ones i have are what you are calling 'supercaps', but which ones, i have not a clue...

just out of curiosity, where are we placing the capacitor in this circuit?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 26, 2009, 10:55:18 PM

Quote from: sm0ky2 on July 26, 2009, 10:21:20 PM
while the trim-pot was a GREAT idea,...

it gives me much frustration.

the 4401 transistor cuts on at 0.71v
3604 chimes in right around 0.74v
my EB gives me 0.66v with no resistor

Did you see my atom smasher idea post for how to get 1.2 volt supply from 0.6 volt EB?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 26, 2009, 11:00:06 PM

this is the exact same as my charger board just 9 on 1 ring ;D

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 26, 2009, 11:04:43 PM

@all
I'm back home again, on P840, and slow reading lol.

OK this last weekend, I bought myself a heep of transistors and a Digital Caliper vernier gauge.
I needed something to measure the winding wire sizes, it's been a bit of a gusimation on wire sizes here, so I had to fix it up.

I wanted 25 transistors, 2N3055, to take advantage of buying in quantity, no luck this time, mabye next time, but I now have enough to make a "different" device.

My EB LED is still very dim, I'm going to add a bit more copper wire to it this week sometime and raise the aerial wire component higher.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 26, 2009, 11:16:47 PM

@ All:

Just for the record...I have never had to charge my supercaps overnight. as a matter of fact, in the early days with the 5.5 volt .47 F cap it charged for about 3 seconds before lighting my led. Later on, with the video I have posted most recently, the 2.3 volt 10F supercap took about 10 seconds to start lighting those leds from the EER.

Where the confusion may have come from, probably my fault, is that somewhere a while back I stated that it would not bother me to have to charge the large 650 F cap all day to be able to run a lot of light at night for the hours I need it....kind of like solar.

My limited knowledge of caps, specifically supercaps, is that they take a little longer to charge up but then only deliver what is demanded from them at that time, like a battery does. Now, you electronics guys with the "regular" caps know that they will charge up in micro seconds or something. The supercaps do not do that. But, they still charge pretty fast and, a regular cap will "dump" every thing it has all at once, these do not do that.

I accidentally discovered this by using a supercap in my first EER circuit almost 2 years ago. (I had no idea it was a supercap until someone on youtube pointed out to me that a cap of .47 F is not possible. Well, it is. They said I must mean micro farads.

Well, I can post it again but Coleman has a cordless drill with supercaps only that will run for 2 hours, and totally recharge in 5 minutes. (You can google this) The other drills using standard rechargeable bats will run for 4 hours, but take 6 hours to recharge.

I take no credit for discovering how supercaps work so well with the EER as it was a total accident. But, if folks look at my videos, you can see the progression from .47 F, to 10F and then two 10 F caps, to my new 650F cap.

I hope this helps.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sm0ky2 on July 26, 2009, 11:35:34 PM

@ Bill

that being said...

i can rest assured that none of my thousands of capacitors are
"supercaps"....

some of my larger ones are 4.7mF (4700micro)

i dont have anything close to .47F

and my smallest are 50v

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 26, 2009, 11:46:31 PM

Smokey:

Two things. I don't want to confuse the info about the base cap. as I have never used on of those. That should probably be of the kind you have there laying about. All of mine have always been wired in parallel to the EER. These are two different applications and other folks here can help with that.

Here is where I got my 10F 2.7 volt (I keep saying 2.3 volt but that is my 650 farad cap.) supercaps:

http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/90420-capacitor-ultra-10f-2-7v-radial-eshsr-0010c0-002r7.html

I got my 650 F 2.3 volt maxcap from Gadgetmall.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 26, 2009, 11:48:44 PM

Quote from: sm0ky2 on July 26, 2009, 10:48:13 PM
do you know the cut-on voltage of the 2222?

silicon transistors turn on at about 0.7v
The germanium ones can be 0.35v

Quotebut i know for a fact my toriods can handle up to the Mhz range,

excellent. The point was only to be doing something others can replicate, but you are not alone, as I mentioned the dump experts hardly ever buy something... note how jim has a box of 3055's!
Anyway, nevermind. As I said it is just MY thing. We are all different and it is great.

Quoteit was NOT the LEDs like i had thought.

What was it? the number of turns?

Quote...

...what you are calling 'supercaps', ...

They are a new-ish development.
A sort of hybrid between a cap and a battery. Mostly cap, but slower like a battery. More chemical, or something.

Quotejust out of curiosity, where are we placing the capacitor in this circuit

?
Parallel to the battery

I am sure you know this part, but for newbies:
neg on the neg side, pos on the pos side.

The hot sun has finally dipped below the horizon.
I will check to see if I have collected anything in my cap... hoping the jt has a light.

jeanna

Edit:
I don't ee a light but I don't see the yellow either. so maybe hoping.

I just re-read a pm from jim answering a Q of mine where he said he didn't use one diode but a bridge.
So, I never did make a bridge of 4007,(just 4001) but I guess in tomorrow's heat will be a good time to make a bridge of 4007's

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 26, 2009, 11:57:46 PM

all that being said bill ...

i have a few more IDEAS lol

imagine ...

well on my last coil i posted i have room for a second 2 turn jt ... wich i guess i will try to add ... and i found 1 more small supercap that i have... and its .33f 5v got it from a true shake it light ..

and i have just enough room for a 3 turn pick up coil .. to charge the super cap .. and when it has some reserve power in it i could fire the second jt ... it wont keep its self running i dont think ...

but i also have a small surface mount 3.6 v nicad i could put there too they charge kind quick and much like a super cap .. 8)

just more rambleings ... ;D

to keep this even simpler i will just use the super cap to feed back to source and recharge driveing battery ... with 2 turns i get like 5 v ... there bouts and it charges the super cap slowly ... and i still have outputs round the bridges wile it charges the super cap .. i put the feed back through a db 107 rectifier then to the super cap im gonna solder it all in place but i may add more turns since i will not add the second jt to this ring for now .. i want to try some feed back for the first time ...

im kind of wondering if i use a aa battery as normal then a aaa and recharge the aaa from the aa take the aa away and runn on the aaa and the super cap feedback rechargeing it ... hummmm

coments ......

ist! thats a hole lot a a`s lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 27, 2009, 12:05:07 AM

Here is a pic from www.allelectronics.com
2 super caps

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 27, 2009, 12:22:07 AM

Jeanna:

The 10 farad supercap link I posted shows them for $3.54 ea. That is just a few cents more for a much larger cap. Plus, IF (sometimes a big if) I remember correctly, they did not have a minimum order or anything. Shipping was reasonable as well. I know I paid less than $10 for the 2 caps plus shipping.

Just passing this on. (for whatever it may or may not be worth)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sm0ky2 on July 27, 2009, 12:22:34 AM

i got the EB to charge up a cap,
if i sit there and switch the cap in/out of the circuit i can flash the entire array of 19 LEDs for a brief second..

now i just have to get it to stay lit

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 27, 2009, 01:03:18 AM

i need input here guys ...

but what if i put a SMALL CAP on the aa supply as soon as power goes in to the 2222 i found 1 ;D

like 1uf this will allow 1uf at 1.5 v to the transistor from the battery in every off and on is that right ... ??

then if im filling a .33f cap to like 5 v in a min or so or less i have not fully tested it... but could i not let that build up then flick a switch to feed back to the driveing cap at a few volts higher ??

then i should find a low ohm resistor to put on the base so i dont burn it out

no ?? honestly i am this electronics stupid lol 8)

plus i dont want a high resistance as i dont want to change the tune of my coil or limit my tuneing range this coil is running VERRY LOW RESISTANCE...

im just getting ready to solder it all up but i thought i might get a RESPONCE b4 i do it wrong....

lol

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 27, 2009, 01:33:59 AM

Sorry ist. I can't help or even respond.

@Sm0ky2,
Good going.
My guess is that if you got one or 2 of the 10F supers that Bill's site sells, you will be good to go.

@Bill jim etc,
For some reason I am not filling a cap. I filled those supercaps 2 years ago (like the pic 5.5v 1F) but for unknown reasons even though the dmm says just under one volt, the cap isn't filling to even close to it.
The cap seems to be all right.
Earlier today I had the cap in parallel in the battery rail while the jt was showing off. I could charge up the cap for 30 or 40 seconds, and it would run the jt for 40 seconds. But from the start, the moment I removed the battery, the light was dim.

I think we talked about accumulating amps as farads over time , that the cap would fill with volts, but once full, it would stay at the same voltage but keep accumulating farads which would come out as amps , or something like that.

Oh well, tomorrow is another great day.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 27, 2009, 02:07:14 AM

i kinda went to work on my own in my mind ... THIS IS THE IST 9 FEED AND FEEDBACK CHARGER BOARD

this is what i have come up with for the coil pictured today ...

parts....

1 pot
3 914 switching diodes
1 1uf 50v cap
1 2222 transistor
1 10 ohm 1 watt resistor
1 switch
1 5.5v .33f super cap
1 db107 rectifier

thats all for now folks... ;D :D

IST!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: rensseak on July 27, 2009, 03:15:25 AM

Quote from: xee2 on July 26, 2009, 04:02:00 PM
The GDT sparkgaps work. But, they are not as good as a real spark gap. However, they are easy to use at low currents and voltages.

what about a "Transient voltage suppression diode" as a substitute for the GDT?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transient_voltage_suppression_diode

regards
Norbert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 27, 2009, 03:47:44 AM

@ rensseak

Quote from: rensseak on July 27, 2009, 03:15:25 AM
what about a "Transient voltage suppression diode" as a substitute for the GDT?

I have no experience with them. Do you have a part number to recommend?

EDIT: Seems like good idea. But, I am suspicious about semiconductor being able to take repeated sparks. They may only work a limited number of times. The data sheets do not address this.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 27, 2009, 04:42:41 AM

@Jeanna,

Back on P842 I think it was, you posted a MOV link of your success with the JT connected to a Stubblefield coil, thats pritty good going in my book.

BTW, I believe you may be the very first person in the world, who has ever seen the output of a stubblefield coil on a scope, when Nathan was alive, there was no scopes. Lucky you. ;D

I heard you mention the clips were connected to the "tens", try this to see if the whole setup can hook into aerial energy.

Hook the scope to the same place you took the first reading from.
Grab a long length of copper wire, about 10 meters long, then touch the "10"s and "5"s ends in turn, watch the scope to see if there is a change in waveform at the same time.
Look for tiny sparks also, if there is, see if the waveform gets bigger by gently/rapidly tapping the connection where you are tapping it to.

While you are doing all this (you need 3 hands) try and raise the other end of the aerial wire, see if this also will feed more energy into it.

I found by rapidly tapping the ends of the wires connected to my EB, it seemed to agetate it and the oscillotations changed, they seemed to be excited.

Gotta get back to slave reading :D

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 27, 2009, 07:48:36 AM

@All
This is way off topic. :D

Is the USA the only country with a space shuttle? No, Russia has one, and
also there is another, in the UK, it seems Amateur Rocketry can launch a Shuttle, a BIG one, with a Robin Car on its side. :D

This is a big mean mumma this one.

In the UK there is a TV program called TOP GEAR, they drive cars Fast to Extremely Fast, this time they bolted a Robin Car to a rocket and up she went and down she came. Now, how do I upload a MOV file? ;D

TOP GEAR is a very interresting TV Show

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on July 27, 2009, 10:44:45 AM

Quote from: sm0ky2 on July 25, 2009, 12:44:55 AM
Bill,.. regardless of wether or not i ever get mine to work, i think a thread with 855 pages speaks for itself. its obvious you guys are doing something with this device.

if someone misconstrued what i was saying, and took offense to it, they have some issues that have nothing to do with wether or not this device works.

what i was trying to say was, that MINE isnt working.. i never said that YOURS doesnt work, or that THEIRS doesnt work...
as if their LED lighting up wasnt proof enough for them that they need MY approval......

instead of arguing about a mute point, lets try to work together here.

i dont understand what im doing wrong here... i can design a multicore procesor, but a 3 component joule thief gives me trouble.... (shrugs)

[EDIT::] 1K resistor was too much, i used a 500 Ohm resistor and it turned on right away....
possibly my red LEDs have a lower resistance than the base circuit.

YAY!! i got it to work! - changed all the resistors, now i have 12 working joule thiefs, of varying core types. it works with cylinders, and even steel rings work with smaller wires and more turns.

i might try a simple Nail next....

oddly enough im reading only 1.3v across the diode.

.6v at the base resistor.

drawing 40ma

Smoky if you put a varaible resistor in series with your base resistor you might see what we are seeing . Congrats . Also its not just the Volts that are lighting Leds its the Pulse dc or ac if you wind an Mk1 you can see Frequency is the most improtant Led factor here we are Experimenting with . I have 1300 volts from a 1 volt battery . I Blew 50 tophat 100 milliamp leds drawing only a fraction of that so its something to ponder as leds are rated in Dc milliamps not ac as we have on Joule Thiefs .Some here are lighting up to 500 to 1000 white leds off a dead aa battery so somthing else to stride for ;) I dont know what the record is but i have a low powered Jt running 4 bright leds now since january on less than a milliamp and it never has gone out . Lots of fun here man . Welcome .

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: rensseak on July 27, 2009, 12:57:30 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 27, 2009, 03:47:44 AM
@ rensseak

I have no experience with them. Do you have a part number to recommend?

EDIT: Seems like good idea. But, I am suspicious about semiconductor being able to take repeated sparks. They may only work a limited number of times. The data sheets do not address this.

best is, just google for TVS-Diode

http://www.google.de/search?hl=de&q=TVS-diode&btnG=Suche&meta= (http://www.google.de/search?hl=de&q=TVS-diode&btnG=Suche&meta=)
http://www.ibselectronics.com/pdf/ac/Diotec/applications/tvs-dioden.pdf (http://www.ibselectronics.com/pdf/ac/Diotec/applications/tvs-dioden.pdf)

i dont know how it will behave in fast switching circuit and even the gas discharge tubes you are useing is not designed for what you will use it.

Norbert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 27, 2009, 01:32:34 PM

JIM

what a mess they make the rockets.... FOOLS ... LOL

WHY NOT CHARGE A CAP AND DUMP IT AND BLAST OFF LIKE ALI SAID YEARS AGO NOW ....

LOL

KINDA LIKE A RAIL GUN ... LOL

BUT NO WE WOULD RATHER DESTORY THE PLANNET ... WITH THE EXAUST FROM THOSE JUNK TOYS...

but lets keep the real smart ones poor too...

that way it will never go any where right !!

lol WRONG ;D

ANYONE BUILD MY SELF RUNNING RINGGGGGGGG YET :D

IST!

WELL ILL KEEP AT IT PUBLIC UNTIL I GET FUNDED :P TRY ME :D

so i have 2 surface mount 3.6 v nicad rechargeables from the shake flash lights i got the db107`s from

i will put both 3.6v 40mah batteries off the super cap .. i could then use the voltage divider .. :D and drop it to 1.2 x 3 feeds at 80 mha to recharge the aaa 300mah solar battery .. or i could take the output of the 3.6 v batteries and feed the curcuit as showen

start from a aa charge a aaa for 20 seconds remove the aa or the STARTER :D allow the ring to run on the aaa 300mah till you have enough in RESERVE to allow the ring to run on its own ...

and if it will not run i have 9 more outputs i could use a few more as feedback ... or i could put the aa STARTER on a 1 min pulser ...

like i said if i had super caps .... LOOK OUT! ;)

ist

btw i changed my feedback winding config to grab from both sides of the jt :) lol

i decided to REDO my curcuit on a bigger board ... so every connection and wire can bee seen and traced with ease ...

but i had to take apart an older unit for the board to build it on ... so thats where i go today ...

ill mount all rechargeable batteries on the board .. recovery and driveing jt voltage devider ... the whole story ..

:)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 27, 2009, 02:11:08 PM

Quote from: electricme on July 27, 2009, 04:42:41 AM

BTW, I believe you may be the very first person in the world, who has ever seen the output of a stubblefield coil on a scope, when Nathan was alive, there was no scopes. Lucky you. ;D

Thanks Jim,
I had forgotten about that file.
Now there are 3 ways to read a NS generator with a scope.

I have used my NSgenerator as a joule thief and read off its secondary.

I have connected my NS gen to the ground and read through the tens which were to be left alone(, and I always thought he had a spark gap there, but could never prove it).

And the other day, I have connected my NS generator to nothing but Radiant waves being produced by the joule thief. I read those from the secondary too.

It is way too hot today to hook up the antenna to my geodesic dome frame. It is all galvanized pipes and stands 12 feet tall. It should be safe enough but it should have enough mass going on to bring in something. So, when this heat wave passes I will add a copper wire to my NS gen and see.

I am curious to see if this is a good landed receiver.
Since it is a good radiant receiver, it may also be a good radiant sender.

But the little joule thief circuit seems to be a very good sender.
Remember, he always seemed to use them in pairs. I think this is part of the plan.
legend:
$=coil
_= wire maybe acting like antenna.
T=Wireless Telephone
$__________T__________$
There is at least one pic of the above configuration.

I plan to do something like this, trouble is all my coils are different and I bet they need to be the same. So, for now, I will use a scope to probe for answers.

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on July 27, 2009, 06:03:32 PM

@all

i ran across a link that I have never seen before. Someone might of posted it already. Its http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/overtep.htm It looks like a JT sorta. Its listed as a simple way to prove OU and also has some scope shots.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 27, 2009, 07:24:39 PM

altrez:

That is very cool, I have never seen that before. That is our own Stefan Hartman, owner/moderator of the OU forum. (In case you didn't know)

Those scope shots do look familiar.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on July 27, 2009, 07:33:22 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on July 27, 2009, 07:24:39 PM
altrez:

That is very cool, I have never seen that before. That is our own Stefan Hartman, owner/moderator of the OU forum. (In case you didn't know)

Those scope shots do look familiar.

Bill

Wow cool I did not know that. The scope shots look really close to ones I have seen. I am not sure how he is hooking up the bi-filer though. I never learned what the black dots meant =)

Also check out this link: http://jnaudin.free.fr/teptheo/teptheo.htm It shows even more..

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 27, 2009, 07:49:59 PM

@all
Has anyone built a SSTC and hooked it up to a JT instead of the normal tesla windings? I did this today as I have recently built my first tesla coil. Very coooooolllllll

I tried to get an amp reading and my DMM looked like it was dieing. Does anyone know how to get an amp reading on a tesla coil?

I love the smell of ozone in the morning ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 27, 2009, 08:00:40 PM

Hi Altrez,

Yeah, I guess Stephan has been doing this for a while 12 years at least!

If you think how you wind the primary bifilar the way Hazens1 does, you go from a center point and from that point of view, winding to the right and to the left at the same time. Then upon closer view, the center is like a tap, where the wire was going along in one way but made a big loop for connection and then continued along the same way.

It is hard to describe and it is hard to draw, so the little dots remind you of the orientation of the turns being opposite from each other when seen from the point of attachment.

This may be even more confusing!, but there it is! :D

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 27, 2009, 08:10:21 PM

Quote from: stprue on July 27, 2009, 07:49:59 PM
@all
Has anyone built a SSTC and hooked it up to a JT instead of the normal tesla windings? I did this today as I have recently built my first tesla coil. Very coooooolllllll

I tried to get an amp reading and my DMM looked like it was dieing. Does anyone know how to get an amp reading on a tesla coil?

I love the smell of ozone in the morning ;D

Not fair!

You didn't tell us what happened!

What happened??

I guess it wasn't letting out any sparks or you would have reported. I am thinking of putting my ignition coil onto a joule thief, but I am not sure about the ignition coil connecting the primary and secondary. I think I want to get rid of that connection.

The joule thief as a radiant signal generator is (as I showed) quite possible, but the receiver needs to be able to receive pulses and not straight dc.
I imagine if your sstc was set up to receive dc input, the output will be weak.

But I want to hear from you exactly what happened?

I think you might use some fluoro or neons or things like that to estimate how much you are getting without killing wimpy machines. They were certainly not designed to withstand a powerful tc output.

lets hear about it please,
If there is a lot we could move over to a tesla page,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on July 27, 2009, 08:22:41 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 27, 2009, 08:00:40 PM
Hi Altrez,

Yeah, I guess Stephan has been doing this for a while 12 years at least!

If you think how you wind the primary bifilar the way Hazens1 does, you go from a center point and from that point of view, winding to the right and to the left at the same time. Then upon closer view, the center is like a tap, where the wire was going along in one way but made a big loop for connection and then continued along the same way.

It is hard to describe and it is hard to draw, so the little dots remind you of the orientation of the turns being opposite from each other when seen from the point of attachment.

This may be even more confusing!, but there it is! :D

jeanna

Thank you :)

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 27, 2009, 08:33:09 PM

st

is that ozone o zone or point 0 zone .... lol

better than the smell of napalm in the morn eh! lol

stpure i do reccomend you get a rectifier tube for your TESLA COIL THEN MESURE THE AMPS :D

LOL

this little board i have been working on just got nuts ..... ;D

i added the voltage devider and 4 more switches ... lol

up to over 24 parts in it....... ITS ALMOST DONE ... YAY!!

ist!

you could find 1 of the military hifreq high amp diodes i have ... ;D but there like 40 bucks if you can even get them .... ;) i hear they know where they all go ...... ya kno ...

i got lucky bought 1 from someone elses order ... the RIGHT PLACE AT THE RIGHT TIME ;D ;D ;D ;D

FEW PICS OF MY LAST BUILD ...

1st pic dubble sided feedback coil
2nd pic compleat unit as it is now ...
3rd pic feed back curcuit .. with aux 1.2v recharge

this coil can have 1.2v feed back dirrectlly to the driveing cap or 3.6 v to the driveing cap ...

or recharge on the 1.2v 300mah battery bla bla bla ... ;D 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on July 27, 2009, 10:11:45 PM

Quote from: stprue on July 27, 2009, 07:49:59 PM
@all
Has anyone built a SSTC and hooked it up to a JT instead of the normal tesla windings? I did this today as I have recently built my first tesla coil. Very coooooolllllll

I tried to get an amp reading and my DMM looked like it was dieing. Does anyone know how to get an amp reading on a tesla coil?

I love the smell of ozone in the morning ;D

Do you have the schematic of how it is interconnected.
I posted one on the kapanadze topic.

Maybe you can help me with mine.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sm0ky2 on July 27, 2009, 10:45:30 PM

im sure some of you have done this before,
but i just daisy-chained a second joule-thief off of the secondary of the first

charged a cap up to 60v with this thing and shot sparks all over the place.......

think its time for a break

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 28, 2009, 12:00:37 AM

@ jeanna

Were you successful in getting your germanium JT to work at 0.3 volts?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 28, 2009, 12:03:07 AM

Quote from: sm0ky2 on July 27, 2009, 10:45:30 PM

but i just daisy-chained a second joule-thief off of the secondary of the first

charged a cap up to 60v with this thing and shot sparks all over the place.......

think its time for a break

;D ;D

Wait a minute.
How exactly did you "daisy chain" it?
Did you make 2 of these already? and then you put the output through a full bridge and then the second output threw the sparks?

@xee2
No, not yet. :(

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 28, 2009, 12:18:19 AM

Xee2,

I was just trying to compile the information, but it seems inconclusive.

I found that using the DMM I had .985 v on the EB
but with the full bridge and the joule thief the Dmm across the EB leads said .768v So, I assumed the transistor was drawing around .2v and that is not enough to turn on the transistor.
I do not understand why it isn't getting to the circuit, because there is .985v and it is not using them.

I checked the voltage coming out of the bridge and it was .015v. so the bridge is not helping.
I will check in a few minutes , but it was not going into the circuit. I have the cap in place. This is the same cap Bill used. I also made sure it worked with a dead battery yesterday... .661v dead.

I am not sure what the problem is.
edit
I just brought it in and it lights just fine and the cap keeps it lit for 5 seconds with a 2 second hit of the battery.
I guess I will fiddle with the resistor to get the amps draw really tiny.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sm0ky2 on July 28, 2009, 12:27:40 AM

@ Jeanna,

i made the rectifier out of LEDs,connected to the secondary of the first JT. puts out about 14.5v
using the output to operate the second JT, which had many many turns on its secondary

cap charges to 60v after about 12 seconds.
removed the cap and shorted across it and got large sparks.

as far as i can tell the current drawing from the battery hasnt changed. though that doesnt make sense to me...
im confused about the whole thing myself.

strange things we're doing with a single cell battery thats near death...

i also should mention that the output of the second is rectified as well, LED diodes: one going in one side of the cap, and one going out the other side.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 28, 2009, 12:35:40 AM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on July 27, 2009, 10:11:45 PM
Do you have the schematic of how it is interconnected.
I posted one on the kapanadze topic.

Maybe you can help me with mine.

Jesus

Jesus

I have not looked at that topic ......
Here is a coincidence for you.

I have been playing with a flyback transformer that I took out of an old monator
I really wanted to use the core from the transformer to make a JT ............but the core seems to be molded into the case .
SO ........ I decided to try to make a JT with the transformer itself .

Looking at the pins on the bottom ............ according to your drawing I connected the base coil to pin1 The wire that would go to B+ and the 2 wires from the coil that are twisted together is connected to pin 3 .
The E coil wire is connected to pin 4.
The output ( secondary ) is the high voltage lead comming out of the top of the transformer and pin 10 If I remember right pin 7 and 9 have high voltage too . I do not know if they will react as separate secondarys or the same one .
I am getting 113V from a AA battery .........not alot ..........but in the range I was looking for.

Tomorow I am going to try it with a bit higher input voltage .

The power this thing puts out seems pretty good .
I had been playing with a flyback / feedback network earlier .
I took the JT out of that network and put the flyback JT in ..... My90 LED array is brighter ...........under load I got 93.8 V across the transformer ........after a half hr I have lost .3 V

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dllabarre on July 28, 2009, 12:37:07 AM

I threw together a JT with components I already had. It turned on the first time :)

2n3055
3 super bright clear deep red LEDs 2.5V Max, 25mA Max 110mW Max 3500mcd
3 super bright clear amber LEDs 2.4V Max, 25mA Max 100mW Max 5500mcd
5K ohm pot - I need to get a 1k for finer tuning.
6" x 1/2" diameter ferrite rod with 110 bifilar wound 22awg magnetic insulated wire

The 6 LEDs "look" the brightest at about 220mA @ 1.17volts.

When the POT is turned to extreme settings, left then right, the measurements are:
left: 47mA @ 1.27volts
right: 748mA @ .835volts.

How do these results fit in with what you all are finding?

Thank you,
DonL

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 28, 2009, 12:43:53 AM

@ sm0ky2

Just a word of caution, capacitors can explode if charged to more than their rated voltage limit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 28, 2009, 12:46:53 AM

@ sm0ky2

Your 2 in series JT may be generating enough voltage to light a neon bulb (about 120 volts). There is no need for the rectifiers, just put the neon across the leads of the last secondary coil.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 28, 2009, 12:52:02 AM

Quote from: sm0ky2 on July 28, 2009, 12:27:40 AM

i made the rectifier out of LEDs,connected to the secondary of the first JT.
using the output to operate the second JT, which had many many turns on its secondary

I will have to try that.
I like the idea of using the lights as rectifying agents. very efficient.

Quotecap charges to 60v after about 12 seconds.
removed the cap and shorted across it and got large sparks.

How much in 4 seconds? or 2 seconds?

Quoteas far as i can tell the current drawing from the battery ...

strange things we're doing with a single cell battery thats near death...

Yes,

The secondary is where the action is on these.
I mean there are people who think a joule thief is to drain a battery really down. but it is much more than that.

The secondary of one of the joule thiefs is enough to give you 60 volts easily without a daisy chain. Some people light neons with just one and that is over 100v way over, because it seems you need more volts when they are spikes like this, but still they are easy to get once you get the hang of it.

And yes, the battery is not being used for much more than to turn on and off the transistor. It is a remarkable little circuit.
This is really cool what you did. I will see about it tomorrow.

I think.

My son's fiancee just told him she wants to get married this summer instead of in 2 years,

and it might be next week. :o
I may be too busy for a couple of weeks.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 28, 2009, 12:56:42 AM

Quote from: dllabarre on July 28, 2009, 12:37:07 AM
I threw together a JT with components I already had. It turned on the first time :)

2n3055
3 super bright clear deep red LEDs 2.5V Max, 25mA Max 110mW Max 3500mcd
3 super bright clear amber LEDs 2.4V Max, 25mA Max 100mW Max 5500mcd
5K ohm pot - I need to get a 1k for finer tuning.
6" x 1/2" diameter ferrite rod with 110 bifilar wound 22awg magnetic insulated wire

The 6 LEDs "look" the brightest at about 220mA @ 1.17volts.

When the POT is turned to extreme settings, left then right, the measurements are:
left: 47mA @ 1.27volts
right: 748mA @ .835volts.

How do these results fit in with what you all are finding?

Thank you,
DonL

Don

Sounds good

You might be able to get the current a little lower if add a cap across the pot to make a tank

The tank resonates ......the output goes up and the current draw goes down

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dllabarre on July 28, 2009, 12:57:04 AM

Quote from: jeanna on July 28, 2009, 12:52:02 AM
My son's fiancee just told him she wants to get married this summer instead of in 2 years,
and it might be next week. :o
I may be too busy for a couple of weeks.
jeanna

Kids... gotta love'em.
I have 6 myself and not a week goes by that at least one of them surprises me with something.

DonL

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dllabarre on July 28, 2009, 12:59:49 AM

Quote from: resonanceman on July 28, 2009, 12:56:42 AM
You might be able to get the current a little lower if add a cap across the pot to make a tank
The tank resonates ......the output goes up and the current draw goes down

gary

Good idea... I'm familiar with a Tank circuit and it's behavior.
I'll try that next.

Thanks,
DonL

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 28, 2009, 01:04:33 AM

@ dllabarre

Thanks for the report. I think your results are better than most because you are using more turns for your coils than most people do. That should give you more output voltage. To check your output voltage remove the LEDs and put a diode on the collector with the non-stripe end to the collector and then put a capacitor from the striped end of the diode to the emitter. Then measure the DC voltage across the capacitor. I suspect you are getting about 30 volts. That should light a lot of LEDs.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 28, 2009, 05:46:21 AM

@Jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on July 27, 2009, 01:33:59 AM
@Bill jim etc,
For some reason I am not filling a cap. I filled those supercaps 2 years ago (like the pic 5.5v 1F) but for unknown reasons even though the dmm says just under one volt, the cap isn't filling to even close to it.
The cap seems to be all right.

jeanna

Strange you mentioned this, I didnt see anyone reply so I will throw in my opinion.
I have 2 of these SC, same voltage and Farad, I noticed my caps would seem to charge directly off a DC supply, but not off my JT.

I don't seem to have this problem with larger value SC, only this type above.
jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 28, 2009, 08:12:17 AM

@all,

Just a while ago I thought I might go and dooo something outragious, lol I grabbed TWO 1000uf 25v Electrolytics, soldered them in series.
Then I soldered seperate wires to the capacitors free ends. :)

To test this, I charged them up by my Bedini, disconnected them and shorted them out, BAM. OK it works. :D

Next I put the POSITIVE from the series caps onto the positive of my EB Bridge.
Then I connected the NEGATIVE from the series caps to a lead coming from my Earth Battery, BEFORE the bridge. :o

The Green LED (which was hardly lit) went out, then a couple of seconds later it started to glow, then it got much brighter than before, BUT, it began to pulse in time with the waveform on the scope. ;D

By this time, I disconnected the aerial wire I had had cliped to it for over a week, the LED didnt loose any brightness that I could see. ;D
I put my DMM on the output and it says 1.735 volts, SO How Come a LED that needs 3 v to turn ono by battery power, can light on 1.735 volts, from a EB. :D
Now heres another thing, the leads from my EB are very long, I will attempt to measure them tomorrow sometime.

I might say here, this is NOT using any Super Caps, only run of the mill electrolytics only.
It is running purely on the EB, nothing else is connected to it. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Next just to try something else, I connected another LED in parallel with the other one, and it lit also, soooo this is the first time I have lit 2 LEDs of my EB :D

This reminds me way back months ago when I was so excited lighting a LED off my EB and I could not replicate it again until now, at that time the room where that occurred was in darkness, I bumped the circuit, while I was taking that movie, the LED went out. When I turned on the light, the circuit had been altered by accident.
I never thought to connect it up in this unusual configuration until now.

I will post a TWV of this some where below

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 28, 2009, 08:23:30 AM

@All,
Click on the paper clip to go to the flicks ;D
jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on July 28, 2009, 09:59:24 AM

Quote
Jesus

I have not looked at that topic ......
Here is a coincidence for you.

I have been playing with a flyback transformer that I took out of an old monator
I really wanted to use the core from the transformer to make a JT ............but the core seems to be molded into the case .
SO ........ I decided to try to make a JT with the transformer itself .

Looking at the pins on the bottom ............ according to your drawing I connected the base coil to pin1 The wire that would go to B+ and the 2 wires from the coil that are twisted together is connected to pin 3 .
The E coil wire is connected to pin 4.
The output ( secondary ) is the high voltage lead comming out of the top of the transformer and pin 10 If I remember right pin 7 and 9 have high voltage too . I do not know if they will react as separate secondarys or the same one .
I am getting 113V from a AA battery .........not alot ..........but in the range I was looking for.

Tomorow I am going to try it with a bit higher input voltage .

The power this thing puts out seems pretty good .
I had been playing with a flyback / feedback network earlier .
I took the JT out of that network and put the flyback JT in ..... My90 LED array is brighter ...........under load I got 93.8 V across the transformer ........after a half hr I have lost .3 V

gary

Can you put that on a schematic Or take a photo? Also could you draw over the schematic already posted? Or could you explain it over this photo?

@ll
Cogratulations to everybody specially to @electricme!!!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 28, 2009, 10:26:39 AM

Quote from: jeanna on July 27, 2009, 08:10:21 PM
Not fair!

You didn't tell us what happened!

What happened??

I guess it wasn't letting out any sparks or you would have reported. I am thinking of putting my ignition coil onto a joule thief, but I am not sure about the ignition coil connecting the primary and secondary. I think I want to get rid of that connection.

The joule thief as a radiant signal generator is (as I showed) quite possible, but the receiver needs to be able to receive pulses and not straight dc.
I imagine if your sstc was set up to receive dc input, the output will be weak.

But I want to hear from you exactly what happened?

I think you might use some fluoro or neons or things like that to estimate how much you are getting without killing wimpy machines. They were certainly not designed to withstand a powerful tc output.

lets hear about it please,
If there is a lot we could move over to a tesla page,

jeanna

This is all new to me at this point and I really don't have a clue on whats going on. I still need to heatsink the transistor so I have only been turning the thing on for 5-10 seconds at a whack. So most of the OU experiments look like they have 3 coils...you have been following along that thread...and there goal it seems is to get all 3 in resonance....so why not wind 3 different coils on a JT? Wouldn't that make it easier? I really don't know but I want to try.

The flouros and neons will light withour contact as expected.

It is set up for DC input 12v @1 or 1.5 amps and I'm using my power supply not the transformer it cam with. It is very small for basic experiments not some huge powerful one. Now yet anyway!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 28, 2009, 10:30:00 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on July 27, 2009, 08:33:09 PM
st

is that ozone o zone or point 0 zone .... lol

better than the smell of napalm in the morn eh! lol

stpure i do reccomend you get a rectifier tube for your TESLA COIL THEN MESURE THE AMPS :D

LOL

this little board i have been working on just got nuts ..... ;D

i added the voltage devider and 4 more switches ... lol

up to over 24 parts in it....... ITS ALMOST DONE ... YAY!!

ist!

you could find 1 of the military hifreq high amp diodes i have ... ;D but there like 40 bucks if you can even get them .... ;) i hear they know where they all go ...... ya kno ...

i got lucky bought 1 from someone elses order ... the RIGHT PLACE AT THE RIGHT TIME ;D ;D ;D ;D

FEW PICS OF MY LAST BUILD ...

1st pic dubble sided feedback coil
2nd pic compleat unit as it is now ...
3rd pic feed back curcuit .. with aux 1.2v recharge

this coil can have 1.2v feed back dirrectlly to the driveing cap or 3.6 v to the driveing cap ...

or recharge on the 1.2v 300mah battery bla bla bla ... ;D 8)

haha...I knew someone would get the ozone line...

I will look around for a rectifier tube but I'm not sure what one is!

P.S. Your build looks great!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 28, 2009, 10:33:51 AM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on July 27, 2009, 10:11:45 PM
Do you have the schematic of how it is interconnected.
I posted one on the kapanadze topic.

Maybe you can help me with mine.

Jesus

I dont, but I will take some pictures. I wish I had the program you have but I have a mac.

I will check out that your post next door. That topic has most of my interest for the last few weeks.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 28, 2009, 11:54:52 AM

Quote from: stprue on July 28, 2009, 10:33:51 AM
I dont, but I will take some pictures. I wish I had the program you have but I have a mac.

But stew, you have THE graphics computer!

You must have some really good graphics program on there already.
Do you have appleworks at least?
What system are you using?
There is a lot of free software that works on mac and linux too if you do not have anything onboard.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 28, 2009, 12:06:48 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 28, 2009, 11:54:52 AM
But stew, you have THE graphics computer!

You must have some really good graphics program on there already.
Do you have appleworks at least?
What system are you using?
There is a lot of free software that works on mac and linux too if you do not have anything onboard.

jeanna

I know there is probably something on my computer....I think I'm lazy! I like testing and experimenting when I have a free minute and not spend time on coming up with graphics...but I should since I can't read circuit diagrams for sh!t. I'm glad you have a ignition coil...I think these higher voltages will help us further our ventures.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on July 28, 2009, 12:13:21 PM

@jim

NICE WORK!!!!!!

@all

I am looking for a good place to order some supercaps. Would anyone happen to have some links?

Thanks!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 28, 2009, 12:18:34 PM

Quote from: stprue on July 28, 2009, 12:06:48 PM

.but I should since I can't read circuit diagrams for sh!t.

It is interesting, I got into electronics in the first place only so I could follow what Tesla was talking about. I had the pamphlet from George Trinkhaus on the coil plus one on tesla's other inventions.
I soo loved what I could follow but when it came to reading the diagrams, I was just lost.

I never expected to be experimenting with it myself but after I took the High school drop in class, even though I was still having trouble reading schematics, I was totally hooked!

Quote
I'm glad you have a ignition coil...I think these higher voltages will help us further our ventures.

Do you know what to do with the fact that the primary and secondary are connected?
do I go inside somehow?
Can I hook it up to only the secondary?

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 28, 2009, 12:24:53 PM

Quote from: altrez on July 28, 2009, 12:13:21 PM
@jim

NICE WORK!!!!!!

@all

I am looking for a good place to order some supercaps. Would anyone happen to have some links?

Thanks!

-Altrez

This is where I got most of mine:

http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/90420-capacitor-ultra-10f-2-7v-radial-eshsr-0010c0-002r7.html

At the bottom of this page, you can navigate to other Farad capacities like 25, 100, 300, etc.

If you get into the larger sizes (Like my 650 Farad cap) Gadgetmall has the best deal on them I know about.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on July 28, 2009, 12:26:48 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 28, 2009, 12:18:34 PM
It is interesting, I got into electronics in the first place only so I could follow what Tesla was talking about. I had the pamphlet from George Trinkhaus on the coil plus one on tesla's other inventions.
I soo loved what I could follow but when it came to reading the diagrams, I was just lost.

I never expected to be experimenting with it myself but after I took the High school drop in class, even though I was still having trouble reading schematics, I was totally hooked!
Do you know what to do with the fact that the primary and secondary are connected?
do I go inside somehow?
Can I hook it up to only the secondary?

thanks,

jeanna

I have a few Ignition Coils and cant seem to get them to do anything with the JT. The connection on the top is the only connection for the secondary I think might be wrong.

I hooked the Pickup coil to the + and - of the ICOIL and did not get much from the secondary. I think its a Resistance thing.

I hooked the coil up to a pulsed AC driver and it lit a 48" floro brightly!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 28, 2009, 12:29:48 PM

Jim:

Great work down there!!!

I wonder if it is because of the spikes again? Since the "old" style cap. charges faster, maybe it is taking advantage of those spikes that we see better than the supercap? The larger size SC's will take a bit longer to charge up but possibly you found the right balance with the right caps for your EB. (Or now EER as we are calling them: Earth Energy Receiver or BEER: Bifilar Earth Energy Receiver)

They are filling fast enough to work with the spike pulses and smooth it out enough to light the led. Have you tried sticking a second led into the mix?

Very good work my friend.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 28, 2009, 12:33:27 PM

@ altrez

Quote from: altrez on July 28, 2009, 12:26:48 PM
I have a few Ignition Coils and cant seem to get them to do anything with the JT.

I would suggest this as the best way to hook a JT to a flyback or ignition coil. I have not done this yet. Please let me know if it works.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 28, 2009, 12:37:22 PM

Hi Bill,
Spikes again.
I bet you are right about that.

I am posting the pic yucca gave me on the other thread because it is like a jt with secondary sort of. (on acid...)

@Altrez I think you are connecting to the wrong wires, maybe.
And they do make them with resistors. I was glad to find one without the extra resistor!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 28, 2009, 12:43:33 PM

Quote from: altrez on July 28, 2009, 12:13:21 PM
@jim

NICE WORK!!!!!!

@all

I am looking for a good place to order some supercaps. Would anyone happen to have some links?

Thanks!

-Altrez

Order through one of our experts here....Gadgetmall or google maxcaps/ultracap/supercaps...you will finds tons of stuff.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on July 28, 2009, 01:00:59 PM

Quote from: stprue on July 28, 2009, 10:33:51 AM
I dont, but I will take some pictures. I wish I had the program you have but I have a mac.

I will check out that your post next door. That topic has most of my interest for the last few weeks.

Thank you @stprue !

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on July 28, 2009, 01:01:16 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 28, 2009, 12:33:27 PM
@ altrez

I would suggest this as the best way to hook a JT to a flyback or ignition coil. I have not done this yet. Please let me know if it works.

I will try that tonight when I get home.

Thanks!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on July 28, 2009, 01:02:32 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 28, 2009, 12:37:22 PM
Hi Bill,
Spikes again.
I bet you are right about that.

I am posting the pic yucca gave me on the other thread because it is like a jt with secondary sort of. (on acid...)

@Altrez I think you are connecting to the wrong wires, maybe.
And they do make them with resistors. I was glad to find one without the extra resistor!

jeanna

I have two without the internal resistor. I will try again tonight =)

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on July 28, 2009, 01:03:38 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on July 28, 2009, 12:24:53 PM
This is where I got most of mine:

http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/90420-capacitor-ultra-10f-2-7v-radial-eshsr-0010c0-002r7.html

At the bottom of this page, you can navigate to other Farad capacities like 25, 100, 300, etc.

If you get into the larger sizes (Like my 650 Farad cap) Gadgetmall has the best deal on them I know about.

Bill

Thank you so much Bill!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on July 28, 2009, 01:03:59 PM

Quote from: stprue on July 28, 2009, 12:43:33 PM
Order through one of our experts here....Gadgetmall or google maxcaps/ultracap/supercaps...you will finds tons of stuff.

Thanks!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 28, 2009, 01:05:34 PM

jeanna drawing reminded me that often two leads of the transformer are tied together and do not come out as separate connections. In this case I would suggest using the following.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on July 28, 2009, 01:13:05 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 28, 2009, 01:05:34 PM
jeanna drawing reminded me that often two leads of the transformer are tied together and do not come out as separate connections. In this case I would suggest using the following.

xee2,

Can you explain the black dots on the diagram for me :) Jeanna tried but I am still confused. I think what I need to do is take one wire wrap it twice around the Toroid then take a separate wire and wrap it three times around the Toroid. Attach the opposite ends of the wires to each other for the + and then hook the other two up as show.

Is that correct? I have made around 100 Working JTs but I never really spent the time to worry about the windings. I always use a 12 / 12 lol.

Thanks!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on July 28, 2009, 01:20:50 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 28, 2009, 01:05:34 PM
jeanna drawing reminded me that often two leads of the transformer are tied together and do not come out as separate connections. In this case I would suggest using the following.

I am not really sure how this would be hooked up. We are not using a pickup coil so once you connect the Toroid to the 2n3055 you have a basic JT then where do you connect the + - of the Ignition coil?

Thanks!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 28, 2009, 01:22:45 PM

Xee2,
Did you only add a 20 ohm resistor?

I do not understand how a transformer is a transformer if the leads are connected. I thought it had to be unconnected by wires to qualify as a transformer.

The joule thief primary is connected this way, but this is not a secondary. I am confused about how that is.

Thanks, I guess I have a lot to do today. :D

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 28, 2009, 01:29:11 PM

@ altrez

Quote from: altrez on July 28, 2009, 01:13:05 PM
Can you explain the black dots on the diagram for me :)

Dots show if coils are wound in same direction or opposite direction. They should be as follows.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 28, 2009, 01:45:05 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on July 28, 2009, 01:22:45 PM
Xee2,
Did you only add a 20 ohm resistor?

No, I tied two leads of flyback transformer together since they are usually made that way. Perhaps this will help.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 28, 2009, 01:56:51 PM

Quote from: altrez on July 28, 2009, 01:13:05 PM
xee2,

Can you explain the black dots on the diagram for me :) Jeanna tried but I am still confused. I think what I need to do is take one wire wrap it twice around the Toroid then take a separate wire and wrap it three times around the Toroid. Attach the opposite ends of the wires to each other for the + and then hook the other two up as show.

Is that correct? I have made around 100 Working JTs but I never really spent the time to worry about the windings. I always use a 12 / 12 lol.

Thanks!

-Altrez

Altrez

The black dots are " Marks "

Take the wire you are going to wind a JT with .
Mark either the ends you plan on starting with or the ends you planing on ending with ......... bits of tape ........marker or paint are all good ways to mark the ends .
Once you have wound your JT ....... you simply connect it so your marks match the black dots on the schematic .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on July 28, 2009, 01:57:55 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 28, 2009, 01:45:05 PM
@ jeanna

No, I tied two leads of flyback transformer together since they are usually made that way. Perhaps this will help.

I do not see how to hook the flyback to the JT? It dose not make sense to me.. Where do you get the connections?

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on July 28, 2009, 01:59:47 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on July 28, 2009, 01:56:51 PM

Altrez

The black dots are " Marks "

Take the wire you are going to wind a JT with .
Mark either the end you plan on starting with or the end you planing on ending with ......... bits of tape ........marker or paint are all good ways to mark the ends .
Once you have wound your JT ....... you simply connect it so your marks match the black dots on the schematic .

gary

Thank you that explains it perfectly!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 28, 2009, 02:09:51 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 28, 2009, 01:45:05 PM
@ jeanna

No, I tied two leads of flyback transformer together since they are usually made that way. Perhaps this will help.
/quote]

Xee

I tried basicly the exact same thing a while back .......only with a MOT rather than a flyback transformer . It choked the JT

I am guessing that the flyback transformer will do the same thing.
I could be wrong ....... the flyback transformer is quite a bit smaller.

I will give it a try a bit later .
I could be very helpful if it does work

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 28, 2009, 02:38:51 PM

@ altrez

Quote from: altrez on July 28, 2009, 01:57:55 PM
I do not see how to hook the flyback to the JT? It dose not make sense to me.. Where do you get the connections?

If you look at jeanna diagram you will see there are only 3 connections to ignition coil. For flyback there is usually a lot of pins and there is no standard for which is which. You will need to figure that out for yourself. Ohm meter is best tool.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on July 28, 2009, 02:46:30 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 28, 2009, 02:38:51 PM
@ altrez

If you look at jeanna diagram you will see there are only 3 connections to ignition coil. For flyback there is usually a lot of pins and there is no standard for which is which. You will need to figure that out for yourself. Ohm meter is best tool.

But every connection is accounted for.. One to the battery. The others to the transistor. Where do you find the connections for the Ignition Coil?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 28, 2009, 02:53:13 PM

Quote from: altrez on July 28, 2009, 02:46:30 PM
But every connection is accounted for.. One to the battery. The others to the transistor. Where do you find the connections for the Ignition Coil?

Hi Altrez,
I am planning to connect the secondary output from my jt to my ignition coil so the 2 screws are connected to the 2 wires of the jt output.

I am not sure anything will happen, however, if the primary and secondary are linked by wires. To me that makes it one wire.
so, that is the part I do not get.

I guess the ohm meter would read the highest when connected across the longest length of wire and less when connected to only part of it. Is that what you are saying xee2?

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 28, 2009, 02:57:17 PM

@ altrez

Quote from: altrez on July 28, 2009, 02:46:30 PM
But every connection is accounted for.. One to the battery. The others to the transistor. Where do you find the connections for the Ignition Coil?

OK. I changed the diagram to say ignition coil. I hope that it will make more sense that way.

EDIT: OH! You are referring to the JT coil diagram. It is generic for JT, it was not made for using ignition coil. I only posted that to explain the dots. Sorry if that confused you.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 28, 2009, 03:07:58 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 28, 2009, 02:53:13 PM
I guess the ohm meter would read the highest when connected across the longest length of wire and less when connected to only part of it. Is that what you are saying xee2?

And a lot of the pins on a flyback from a monitor do not seem to be connected to anything.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 28, 2009, 03:08:44 PM

@ Gary:

Thank you also for your explanation of the dots. I have never understood that until just now. Many have explained it before and it just never sank in until I read your explanation.

Thank you. (Also thank you to the many others that have tried to explain it before...I just didn't get it.)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 28, 2009, 03:19:23 PM

I am quoting this post from Yucca over on the Kapandze topic as it may help with the flyback transformer pin ID:

"@Jesus,

Hope this helps you, it really helped me find the correct pins for my flyback trafo:

http://lifters.online.fr/lifters/labhvps/tht.htm (http://lifters.online.fr/lifters/labhvps/tht.htm)

Quoted from Yucca"

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 28, 2009, 05:13:35 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on July 28, 2009, 03:19:23 PM
I am quoting this post from Yucca over on the Kapandze topic as it may help with the flyback transformer pin ID:

"@Jesus,

Hope this helps you, it really helped me find the correct pins for my flyback trafo:

http://lifters.online.fr/lifters/labhvps/tht.htm (http://lifters.online.fr/lifters/labhvps/tht.htm)

Quoted from Yucca"

Bill

I did it the old fashioned way .

I just did a continuity between all the pins
I marked which pins had connections between them

Then I got out my trusty alligator clips and tried hooking them up

gary

Edit

All you need for a JT is the equivelent of a center tapped coil .
So if you can find 3 pins with continuity you should be able to make a JT with it .

2 separate windings in the same transformer will work too .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on July 28, 2009, 05:13:49 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on July 28, 2009, 03:19:23 PM
I am quoting this post from Yucca over on the Kapandze topic as it may help with the flyback transformer pin ID:

"@Jesus,

Hope this helps you, it really helped me find the correct pins for my flyback trafo:

http://lifters.online.fr/lifters/labhvps/tht.htm (http://lifters.online.fr/lifters/labhvps/tht.htm)

Quoted from Yucca"

Bill

Thank you @pirate !
I was just going to post that one link here and you did it first.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 28, 2009, 05:18:16 PM

It is way too hot to put this newly modified jt out onto the eer. however, I am pleased to announce and thank xee2 for his suggestion that I lower the amps needed by raising the value of the base resistor.

It took 6 of these free (with the purchase of leds) 470 ohm resistors to bring the amps draw down to 36mA. I could go lower if needed. the light is still fully bright. I will stop here because the resistor chain is starting to look like Ali's bracelet. :D

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 28, 2009, 05:22:10 PM

awesome work everyone ...

i have always wound my coils all 1 dirrection i then pulse in that dirrection the other end is the resistored wire ..

this is done in each and everyone of my coils...

i have a BOX FULL OF FLYBACKS... plus like 5 more things to take all apart yet ...

never fired 1 up yet... ...

congrats to your son jeanna ... funny my mother gets married this week end lol ... kinda a 4 week ago idea...

ideas to manifestation over night it seems.... ;D lol

i was cashing in my scrap copper today ... now back to the rings ... i have my little jt board almost done recovery works as showen i have 3 1.2v feeds and a 3.6 v feed i added more switches .. so i could isolate the aaa driving battery and recharge it independent of the coil

it still needs some work b4 its fully running .. but its dammmmm close i dont know what i will use for caps on the output but my little coils charge them fast ... might use 200v 6.8 uf cuz i have tones of them and cuz i can charge them fairly fast .. plus it all depends on the coils use

if i want to switch them to drain or if i want them to self drain or spark gap them to drain agin 1 MILLION WAYS TO DO IT ....

speeking of spark gaps ... I FOUND AN AWESOME ONE LOL AS I CURRENTLY THINK ..

I TOOK APART SOME 120V AC RELAYS .. AND THEY HAVE A COPPER ARM AND A PRESSED SILVER CONTACT .. I WILL USE A FULLER GADGE TO SET THE GAP ... I HAVE BOUT 15 0F THEASE REALAYS WICH IM SNEEKING THE COILS OUT FOR ANOTHER RINGGGGGG ;D ;D :D

SO I GOT ALL THEASE RELAY CONCTACTS LEFT OVER :D

IST!

I could go lower if needed. the light is still fully bright. I will stop here because the resistor chain is starting to look like Ali's bracelet. :D

you make me smile :) :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 28, 2009, 05:32:28 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on July 28, 2009, 03:08:44 PM
@ Gary:

Thank you also for your explanation of the dots. I have never understood that until just now. Many have explained it before and it just never sank in until I read your explanation.

Thank you. (Also thank you to the many others that have tried to explain it before...I just didn't get it.)

Bill

:)

Thanks Bill

Simple minds find simple ways of saying things

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 28, 2009, 05:44:20 PM

I put some parts I had together and this is what I got.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on July 28, 2009, 05:47:58 PM

@all

I changed the transistor to a 3055 NPN and used a power supply at 9v
also connected instead of just touch, the pin #8 to a wire that was attached to the HV pkug with an alligator, leaving about 1/4" of gap.

And the flyback began a buzzing sound and I did it!!!!!!

It lasted about 10 seconds thoug, the power supply quit on me.
Another loss, but I did it.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 28, 2009, 05:56:40 PM

so i was just digging in a ringggg box lol

and since ALI`S braceltt came up now so does a hand wound ring from her

;D

wile i was digging i found 1 i did too now what if i threw the both togather as a

EATHER TPU ;D

ILL ADD THE PICS SOON ..

ist

her coil is air core .. mine is iron ring pipe core... wound a 4 split generator and a jt with an iron wire feed back ;D thease coils are old ... we made them a wile ago ... i have not lived with my children for well over a year ... and there mother is just LOST! wont even let them see me !!

but i push on ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9F444CELomo

cuz i got that HIT TO BEAT THE BLOCK!! IF YOU GET THAT BASE ON BELOW...

IM ON THAT NEXT NOW! ;)

whats next that super sonic boom ?

will i am

BEATS SOOOOO BIG IM STEPPIN ON LEPERCONS... YOU ALL GETTIN HIT WIT TA BOOM BOOM !! :)

CUZ WE GOT THE BEAT THAT POUNDS.... THAT 808.... THAT BOOM BOOM IN YOUR TOWN!!

first pic ALI'S coil

2 FREQS just a weeeeee bit diffrent ;) ;D :D :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on July 28, 2009, 07:27:40 PM

Quote from Bill..

" I wonder if it is because of the spikes again? Since the "old" style cap. charges faster, maybe it is taking advantage of those spikes that we see better than the supercap? The larger size SC's will take a bit longer to charge up but possibly you found the right balance with the right caps for your EB. "

Maybe you could have the best of both worlds if you connected your regular caps so that they discharged into supercaps.

What a great spirit of cooperation among this group...not one instance of glory grabbing, just the sharing of ideas toward a common goal.

There are no individual accolades that can compare with the feeling of being a part of a great team.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 28, 2009, 07:33:13 PM

@all

Food for tough !

Look a center tap base coil and center tap collector coil on a flyback ... Humm ionized air ...

High power jt and radio jt ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 28, 2009, 08:27:42 PM

has anyone done any aircore coils to ringgggg the iron core in the past useing a jt a really sipmle unit ...

induce a magic feild in the iron and allow it to colapse and collect from it just find the right freq for the iron ring useing the air core one ..

kinda like the aircore jt and realy coil vid i shot... :D

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 28, 2009, 09:24:40 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on July 28, 2009, 05:47:58 PM
@all

I changed the transistor to a 3055 NPN and used a power supply at 9v
also connected instead of just touch, the pin #8 to a wire that was attached to the HV pkug with an alligator, leaving about 1/4" of gap.

And the flyback began a buzzing sound and I did it!!!!!!

It lasted about 10 seconds thoug, the power supply quit on me.
Another loss, but I did it.

Jesus

Jesus

How did you lower the voltage going to the base ?

I am not having much luck with that

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on July 28, 2009, 10:26:57 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on July 28, 2009, 09:24:40 PM
Jesus

How did you lower the voltage going to the base ?

I am not having much luck with that

gary

I used a 470ohm with a 104 ceramic cap acroos it. I started with 100k resistance and test down to 470ohm.
Also I used a green LED from the emitter to the base as if it were a pulse motor, then to complete the transistor protection I added a neon bulb between the emmitter and the collector.
Just as the bedini circuit but with a green led and a ceramic cap.

I worked for 10 seconds and then after throwing sparks from all pointy parts of the piece of board attached it died.

I checked the circuit with a joule thief test and worked perfectly.

there is a recommendation from the kapanadze topic, to add a good diode between the positive wire and the positive rail to safeguard the power supply.

I will eliminate the piece of circuit board and retry. Then I will try to experiment with the ignition coil.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 28, 2009, 10:44:08 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on July 28, 2009, 10:26:57 PM
I used a 470ohm with a 104 ceramic cap acroos it. I started with 100k resistance and test down to 470ohm.
Also I used a green LED from the emitter to the base as if it were a pulse motor, then to complete the transistor protection I added a neon bulb between the emmitter and the collector.
Just as the bedini circuit but with a green led and a ceramic cap.

I worked for 10 seconds and then after throwing sparks from all pointy parts of the piece of board attached it died.

I checked the circuit with a joule thief test and worked perfectly.

there is a recommendation from the kapanadze topic, to add a good diode between the positive wire and the positive rail to safeguard the power supply.

I will eliminate the piece of circuit board and retry. Then I will try to experiment with the ignition coil.

Jesus

Thanks Jesus

I tried a few caps across my resistor but I guess I didn;t try enough .
I will try again tomorow

I am looking forward to see what you do with the ignition coil

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 28, 2009, 10:47:52 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 28, 2009, 05:44:20 PM
I put some parts I had together and this is what I got.

So xee2,
I am still unclear about what I would be doing if I connected the ignition coil.
I see in your drawing that this transformer is connected to the battery pos.

Is that what I would be doing if I connected the ignition coil to my joule thief?

And, can you please explain why you would connect the wires of the primary and secondary in a transformer coil like that?

thanks

jeanna

=====
Time warp
=====
Do you all remember hundreds of pages ago when Bill painted the inside of a plastic tube to make a cfl homemade style?

I have continued to wonder what they put on the fluoro tubes and how to get some or whatever,

I found a very good website by an interesting person. He says he is an engineer. The topics that interest him are all over the place... (I like this website, I guess)

So, he explains this stuff and the light bulbs stuff.
I copied just 2 paragraphs and here is the link to the whole site.

http://www.waynesthisandthat.com/glow.htm (http://www.waynesthisandthat.com/glow.htm)

and here is the info:

How Phosphorescent Paints Work:

Fluorescent paints are paints that glow only when irradiated by an energy source. A good example is the phosphor lining on the inside of a fluorescent tube. Current flowing through mercury vapor inside the tube creates ultraviolet rays that strike the phosphor. These ultraviolet rays knock the electrons around the phosphor atoms into higher orbits. The electrons immediately fall back down releasing the energy they absorbed from the ultraviolet rays as visible light.

Phosphorescent paints function in much the same way, except that once a light ray bumps an electron into a higher or more energetic orbit the electron gets stuck there. It's rather like a ball getting stuck in one of the traps in a pinball machine. It stays put until the plunger underneath the trap pushes it out so it can drop down to the bottom of the table. The temporary entrapment is called a metastable state. In the case of phosphorescent paints, what nudges the electrons out of the energy trough that has them trapped is random thermal fluctuations in the crystal structure of the pigment. This is why phosphorescent paints glow weaker but longer when cold and brighter but shorter when hot. An easy way to demonstrate this is to get some phosphorescent glowing and press it with your thumb for a few seconds. The area under the thumb will be heated and when the thumb is removed, will glow slightly brighter than the surrounding cool area.

----
My conclusion is if I could get a uv or maybe just a bright white light to shine up into a cfl tube, perhaps the phosphors would light up just like the regular bulb in the socket.

So then a jt with a led would light up a cfl.

I think it is worth a try. I have some uv's.
they are hard to see, so I haven't played with them much.
soon...

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 28, 2009, 11:17:00 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 28, 2009, 10:47:52 PM

----
My conclusion is if I could get a uv or maybe just a bright white light to shine up into a cfl tube, perhaps the phosphors would light up just like the regular bulb in the socket.

So then a jt with a led would light up a cfl.

Jeanna

I have a 48 UV LED light
I tried shining it on some florescent tubes and a CFL
They glowed a little ........but not as much as other things .
Even white paper looked brighter than the tubes
It could be that the glass of the tubes is absorbing the UV .
Or my UV LEDs are not the right wavelength.

.
gary

Edit

here is the light I used

http://www.besthongkong.com/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=&products_id=128

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 28, 2009, 11:39:43 PM

@all
I just made a successful series earth battery :D

I made 2 separate EB cells, I will make more and add to this setup, but need more material.

I used an aluminium tube 1 inch wide, 7 inches long

I wrapped insulation tape half an inch, from the top, wound it all the way to the bottom and allowed the bottom of the tape to over run and pushed this back up and under the inside of the ally tube.

I did the same with the second tube.

I hammered them both in the ground
I filled them both with dirt.

Then got a 1/2" copper tube, and pushed it inside the ally tube, (Don't let it touch the inside of the ally tube)

Both cells are 2 inches away from each other

Each cell is putting out (with dry dirt) 0.5volt

I connected them in series and the voltage doubled to 1v

I got to fly into town and get some zinc coated bolts and milk. (100klm round trip but worth it) ;D

hooroo
jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 28, 2009, 11:46:47 PM

Way to go Jim!!!!! That is fantastic!

I wonder if we can get a magnesium tube and ram a carbon rod inside it and have a whole bunch of them? you may have just taken this to an entire new level.

Nice work!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sm0ky2 on July 29, 2009, 12:15:27 AM

Quote from: electricme on July 28, 2009, 05:46:21 AM
@Jeanna
Strange you mentioned this, I didnt see anyone reply so I will throw in my opinion.
I have 2 of these SC, same voltage and Farad, I noticed my caps would seem to charge directly off a DC supply, but not off my JT.

I don't seem to have this problem with larger value SC, only this type above.
jim

This is why i rectified the output of the JT, it seems the A/C both charges and UN-charges the cap. or rather charges it oppositely half the cycle, which is an UN-charging...
diode (i used LEDs) going in one side and out the other should fix that problem.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 29, 2009, 12:48:12 AM

Quote from: resonanceman on July 28, 2009, 11:17:00 PM

Jeanna

I have a 48 UV LED light
I tried shining it on some florescent tubes and a CFL
They glowed a little ........but not as much as other things
Or my UV LEDs are not the right wavelength.

here is the light I used

http://www.besthongkong.com/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=&products_id=128

hmm
I guess my reply got lost.

Anyway, I saw this on that page or one just like it.

WARNING: Our MR16 LED Lamps cannot be used with switching regulators whose AC output has a sine frequency in the KHz range. They can be used with AC current from Transformers (both Toroidal and Steel cores, 50 or 60Hz) or with any DC source (Regulated 12V)

I think that is the joule thief they are talking about, don't you?

I also seem to remember someone coming to add the comment when I thought of this uv thing a while ago. Maybe it is the wrong wavelength. It just seemed that sticking the led in the end of the tube the way Bill did with the plastic tube would excite the phosphors directly. And if this guy is right, and he seems to have experimented with it personally, the newer paint or powders are much better than regular fluorescent tube paint anyway. So, they would glow brighter while being turned on with a uv light, and then continue to glow like gadget's glow tiles.

btw,
I have one stuck to each of 2 lights and they are so bright for the first 10 minutes the glow streams to the ceiling and the light comes out through the lampshade. If I charge them with leds they get even brighter- but in spots.

====
Well, still no EB light. I added the 47uF parallel to the supercap and battery leads. It worked fine inside and it did seem to add to the on time of the light after I pulled the plug (inside) , so it is a good idea.

@Sm0ky2,
I agree. the cap empties and fills from the secondary. It is useless to just stick it there unless rectified.

I am intrigued that you got the lights to go in different directions as diodes yes, but I usually see no light or extremely dim light in one direction.

Are they equally bright in both directions?

I think you are doing great work. I am glad you got your jt to work.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 29, 2009, 01:30:34 AM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on July 28, 2009, 10:47:52 PM
So xee2,
I am still unclear about what I would be doing if I connected the ignition coil.
I see in your drawing that this transformer is connected to the battery pos.

I do not know what else I can do to help you. Remember, I have not done this. But this is how I would try it.

Quote from: jeanna on July 28, 2009, 10:47:52 PM
I see in your drawing that this transformer is connected to the battery pos.

Is that what I would be doing if I connected the ignition coil to my joule thief?

And, can you please explain why you would connect the wires of the primary and secondary in a transformer coil like that?

The two coils of the transformers are connected together that way in the ignition coil.

EDIT: I think it would be best to start with a JT that has 10 turns for base coil and collector coil and then see if the number of turns can be reduced.

EDIT 2: In a car, a switch pulses current into the ignition coil. The idea is to replace the switch with the JT and have the JT pulse the current into the ignition coil. In my circuit the idea is that each time the JT turns on it sends current through the ignition coil primary.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 29, 2009, 03:08:11 AM

@ jeanna

Why not start with this circuit and get it working. When it is working replace the toroid transformer with the ignition coil.

I have tested this circuit and it works. I have not substituted ignition coil.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 29, 2009, 05:56:43 AM

@ Bill

Thank you for the kind words with my success, wonder if anyone else will cotton on, just what it is I have done here. :D

s

Quote from: Pirate88179 on July 28, 2009, 11:46:47 PM
Way to go Jim!!!!! That is fantastic!

I wonder if we can get a magnesium tube and ram a carbon rod inside it and have a whole bunch of them? you may have just taken this to an entire new level.

Nice work!

Bill

What you suggest might work, but you would need to use a tube just a little bit bigger, I would recommend the carbon electrode have a gauze wraped all around it, 1 turn should do, paper would do but it wouldnt last long in the damp earth, perhapse a dish cleaning cloth, like a chux, thin, porus and built tough to last, perhaps Jeanna might have a better idea.

What I will do is take a cell out of the ground and take it apart, pics will show exactly how I made it.

I drove into town and got a pkt of gal nails, the idea is to get more voltage with cells in series, to prove the concept first, then get amps and volts later.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on July 29, 2009, 09:30:19 AM

Quote from: xee2 on July 29, 2009, 03:08:11 AM
@ jeanna

Why not start with this circuit and get it working. When it is working replace the toroid transformer with the ignition coil.

I have tested this circuit and it works. I have not substituted ignition coil.

I think i get it. You REMOVE the Toroid before attaching the Ignition Coil?

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 29, 2009, 03:51:04 PM

@ altrez

Quote from: altrez on July 29, 2009, 09:30:19 AM
I think i get it. You REMOVE the Toroid before attaching the Ignition Coil?

-Altrez

Yes. I do not have an ignition coil so I made a similar coil using a toroid. I suspect that if the extra toroid is replaced by the ignition coil that it is modeling then the circuit will still work. But, it may take some experimenting to get things working. Good luck.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 29, 2009, 03:55:07 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 29, 2009, 03:08:11 AM
@ jeanna

Why not start with this circuit and get it working. When it is working replace the toroid transformer with the ignition coil.

I have tested this circuit and it works. I have not substituted ignition coil.

What is 4/60?
Is it a toroid?- your big one? is it a cylinder?

My question about the ignition coil was about how IT is wound and why it would be wound like that. I like using something more tame, so thanks for the suggestion.

thank you,

jeanna

edit,
We posted at the same time. I see the answers.

You seem to have placed this additional toroid in between the existing one and the pos battery. So, it is directly effecting the transistor this way. I doubt a transistor could stand this with a real ig coil?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 29, 2009, 04:04:24 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on July 29, 2009, 03:55:07 PM
I doubt a transistor could stand this with a real ig coil?

I do not think there is any problem with the transistor, but that is what experiments are for. Here is another example I did with the simulated ignition coil.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on July 29, 2009, 04:25:03 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 29, 2009, 04:04:24 PM
@ jeanna

I do not think there is any problem with the transistor, but that is what experiments are for. Here is another example I did with the simulated ignition coil.

I still have no clue why the other transformer is in there? It makes no sense to me on how to even hook it up? What is the 10/10 for anyway? The Ignition Coil is a transformer it has a + and a - and a HV output.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 29, 2009, 04:29:07 PM

Quote from: altrez on July 29, 2009, 04:25:03 PM
I still have no clue why the other transformer is in there? It makes no sense to me on how to even hook it up? What is the 10/10 for anyway? The Ignition Coil is a transformer it has a + and a - and a HV output.

-Altrez

The ignition coil needs pulsed current into it to work. The JT pulses the current for the ignition coil.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on July 29, 2009, 04:32:55 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 29, 2009, 04:29:07 PM
The ignition coil needs pulsed current into it to work. The JT pulses the current for the ignition coil.

Yes that is true but how do you hook it up? What wire from the JT do you connect to the + on the IC and what wire do you connect to the - On the ignition coil? And why do you need the Toroid? Cant you just use the 2n3055?

I am really lost on the wiring? Do you splice wires from the connections on the 2n3055?

Thanks!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: IotaYodi on July 29, 2009, 04:46:51 PM

QuoteMy question about the ignition coil was about how IT is wound and why it would be wound like that

An ignition coil is a transformer. A primary and secondary is needed in order to produce the high voltage,about 20kv,to fire the spark plugs. The collapse of the secondary magnetic field induces the high voltage. This is on the old mechanical type. The new electronic types I dont know.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 29, 2009, 04:53:44 PM

@ altrez

Quote from: altrez on July 29, 2009, 04:32:55 PM
Yes that is true but how do you hook it up? What wire from the JT do you connect to the + on the IC and what wire do you connect to the - On the ignition coil? And why do you need the Toroid? Cant you just use the 2n3055?

I am really lost on the wiring? Do you splice wires from the connections on the 2n3055?

Thanks!

-Altrez

Make a JT and then insert the IC between the collector coil and the positive terminal of battery. You can use an ohm meter to see which way the ignition coil + and - termninals should go. I have not done this. You will need to do some experimenting. I am just trying to help.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 29, 2009, 07:29:39 PM

@all

Those are the two spot where a would try a ignition coil jt .

And obviously only the coil use both coil like the jt output at regular jt led spot , but i fear blowing the transistor .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 29, 2009, 07:40:09 PM

@ altrez

Quote from: altrez on July 29, 2009, 04:32:55 PM
I am really lost on the wiring? Do you splice wires from the connections on the 2n3055?

Maybe a pictorial will help.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 29, 2009, 07:56:33 PM

xee2,
I am asking about blowing things because of this post from Stephan yesterday.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7679.msg194259#msg194259 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7679.msg194259#msg194259)
In it he says to jesus who has just lost a power device, which is really too bad,

QuoteHi Jesus,
if you switch a coil via a transistor ... or other
electronic component you have to take care about the
BackEMF voltage of the coil,
when the transistor ... is switching off the circuit.

So you need a ...or a cap in parallel with the
coil, otherwise it will kill your electronic switch.

Better use a cap in this circuit and use a transistor ... that can stand the high ringing voltage from the BACKEMF....

So, I thought we are not having the kind of trouble Stephan speaks of because when you only use the secondary the feedback and spikes going directly to the transistor are filtered away.
However, if it is wired into the bjt circuit as you propose, I think it will produce a melt down. And, I would only try it with the 10T/60T you suggested. not the ig coil.

I have some I could try. I need to cool down first before I melt down...my hands are sticking to the keyboard. :)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 29, 2009, 08:10:34 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on July 29, 2009, 07:56:33 PM
I would only try it with the 10T/60T you suggested. not the ig coil.

It is always better to be safe than sorry. But that spike is what you have been using in the JT. I do not want to suggest you do something that will cause harm and high voltages are much more likely to cause harm than low voltages. So perhaps you should not use the ignition coil. I was only trying to help because I thought you said you wanted to use an ignition coil.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 29, 2009, 08:41:48 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 29, 2009, 08:10:34 PM

...I was only trying to help because I thought you said you wanted to use an ignition coil.

I appreciate it too.

My question was about how the primary and secondary are connected inside the ignition coil.
It seems like one coil; a bifilar in a way.

but in a joule thief the primary bifilar does not seem to be the best place for the spark. the secondary is rather safe for the transistor.
It is the spike that is what we are going for, yes, but the 450 volts are occurring on the secondary and blowing leds, but no transistor because it has a "magnetic layer" of protection.

So, if I were to use an ignition coil as the secondary off the joule thief, I would not want to ground it onto the battery because of that spike.

But then where?

But more than any other question, I am asking how the ignition coil can act as a high voltage transformer when the primary is electrically connected to the secondary.

thanks a lot,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 29, 2009, 08:49:35 PM

Xee2:

I think I see what you are saying here. The way I see your proposed circuit is not that much different than the Fuji circuit. There is no danger to the 2n3904 on the modified Fuji even though the output is almost 400 volts. In your circuit, as long as the 3055 does NOT get tied into the secondary, I don't see a problem with it blowing the transistor. All that I see happening is that we are using the pulses from the JT to replace the pulses from the points normally used with that old style I. Coil. I believe your circuit will work just fine. One could also tie one of those into a Bedini motor and have the rotor derived pulses fire the coil. Wow, a Bedini with a 30,000 volt output....now that sounds neat....and dangerous....but cool.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 29, 2009, 08:50:35 PM

Quote from: IotaYodi on July 29, 2009, 04:46:51 PM
An ignition coil is a transformer. A primary and secondary is needed in order to produce the high voltage,about 20kv,to fire the spark plugs. The collapse of the secondary magnetic field induces the high voltage. ...

Hi IotaYodi
I must have missed this post. I would have asked you rather than xee2 again, just now.

I am under the impression that a transformer is made of 2 separate wires coiled around a common core such that the wire of each is close to the other so the mag field of one can create the electric ?field? in the other... bla bla
AND they are not at all connected through the wires.

How, then can an ig coil be a transformer when the primary is wired to the secondary?

If I can understand this, then I think can proceed.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 29, 2009, 08:59:26 PM

# Pirate88179

Quote from: Pirate88179 on July 29, 2009, 08:49:35 PM
I think I see what you are saying here.

I think you got it Bill.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PARAV on July 29, 2009, 09:03:37 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 29, 2009, 07:40:09 PM
@ altrez

Maybe a pictorial will help.

Xee2

Wow, great job , your awesome. Those schematics are a tremendous h.elp

Parav

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: IotaYodi on July 29, 2009, 09:18:53 PM

The coil primary winding contains 100 to 150 turns of heavy copper wire. This wire must be insulated so that the voltage does not jump from loop to loop, shorting it out. If this happened, it could not create the primary magnetic field that is required. The primary circuit wire goes into the coil through the positive terminal, loops around the primary windings, then exits through the negative terminal.

The coil secondary winding circuit contains 15,000 to 30,000 turns of fine copper wire, which also must be insulated from each other. The secondary windings sit inside the loops of the primary windings. To further increase the coils magnetic field the windings are wrapped around a soft iron core. To withstand the heat of the current flow, the coil is filled with oil which helps keep it cool.

As current flows through the coil a strong magnetic field is built up. When the current is shut off, the collapse of this magnetic field to the secondary windings induces a high voltage which is released through the large center terminal. This voltage is then directed to the spark plugs through the distributor. It transforms low voltage to high voltage.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 29, 2009, 09:31:47 PM

Thank you IotaYodi,

You know that is what I thought it was. Someone posted the pic I will post below so you and anyone else who is interested can see what was so confusing.

I appreciate your help and a good picture goes a long way.

I wonder what that other picture that shows them connected is all about??

Thank you again,

jeanna

Edit
Since this is the beginning of a new page even a long page, I will post the correct diagram for an ignition coil at this time too.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 29, 2009, 09:44:59 PM

@ All:

Slightly off-topic but maybe not really since we are all interested in energy. I just got my electric bill for the month of July here in Kentucky and it was $31.00. Now, this includes taxes, both state and local, AND a mandatory $5.00 recycling fee charge. I think that is pretty good! I did the same energy management type stuff at my other house and after 6 months, the electric company came out and replaced my meter. When I asked why they were doing that, they said it was because the last folks that owned it had electric bills/power usage 250% over mine so the meter must be defective. Funny thing, my bills stayed at the same low levels.

When I moved in here 7 years ago, (small apartment) I got an electric power usage history from the company that showed the bills averaged $80/month year round. That was long before the recycling fee and at least 4 tax increases. My goal is to have them come out here and replace my meter once again. When you light your home with leds from dead batteries, it uses less power, ha ha.

Just wanted to share this with you folks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 29, 2009, 11:29:27 PM

I did not have much time for expermenting today

I did have enough time to read a few posts and try one thing .

I tried hooking an ignition coil in series to my secondary to make flyback

It worked pretty good connecting with the primary terminals
I got a small increase in voltage .

I do not know where to connect the other leg for the primary .
I tried connecting it to my Jesus charger an the primary terminals .....I got less than 2V

Then I tried connecting it using one primary terminal and the secondary tower .
My voltage jumped from Just over 100V ( under a load of 90 LEDs ) to 150V .
That is by far the biggest jump I have ever seen from adding one inductor .

gary

Note
to save time I just inserted the ignition coil in a flyback/feedback network I had set up .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 29, 2009, 11:33:10 PM

@Jeanna,

Quote from: jeanna on July 29, 2009, 09:31:47 PM
Thank you IotaYodi,

You know that is what I thought it was. Someone posted the pic I will post below so you and anyone else who is interested can see what was so confusing.

jeanna

Hmmm if you knew what you thought it was, then you wouldn't have been so confused all the pages back asking those questions, what was so confusing about it.

What IotaYodi said, is correct, but he didn't go far enough with his answer.

The ignition coil is designed for either a 6v DC or a 12v DC electrical system.
If you want to power any ignition coil from a joule thief, then you need to reduce the JT output to a manageable level to do this.

The JT output is now at wavelengths of HF voltage/frequency, at micro amps.

The Ignition coil cannot work correctly on frequency levels as its input voltage.
It needs a steady DC which is interrupted at the points.

In actual fact, a DC is applied directly to the ignition coil, all the time, (in the kettering system), then the output (LO voltage out) proceeds to the ignition points, where the "lobe" on the cam then switches the ignition points to earth, this completes the circuit. The DWEL is the amount of "time" the coil is in charge. The dwel is adjusted by setting the point "gap", the "advance" or "retard" is the rotation of the firing position, relating to Top Dead Center".

If you were using a HHO system, then you need to retard the firing point to at least 10 degrese after TDC or you will get bent conrods.

Now the coil becomes energised, the magnetic field is formed.
The cam is rotating on its shaft, it lifts the ignition point to open, the magnetic field now collapses, a extreamly high EMF is formed, and the result is the huge spark we are all familiar with at the spark plug.

The KEY to making the JT work with a ignition coil is therefore to convert the vhv frequency of the JT output, back down to a much lower level of direct DC at amp levels. You will need to look at Frequency to DC converter circuits.
Then you will have success running a ignition coil from a joule thief.

When the ignition point opens it creates a extreamly sharp square wave.
The condensor makes the spark "flare" to ignite the petrol vapor in the cylinders.

IGBT transistors now seem to be the transistor of choice to do this, instead of the old mechanical ignition points, a Hall effect transistor triggers the TR by a "reluctor" (just a round iron disk with iron lobes (sharp points)).
It is configured basicly like a darlington/tripple darlington circuit.

If 12v is a little too difficult to make, try a 6v ignition coil from a motorbike.

If you want to use a scavenged HVF transformer out of a TV or PC monitor, get a circuit and study it, look for the section that drives the thing, or ring a TV repair tech, ask them how it works, what voltage and current it needs to produce the pulces.

Another way to do this is to take a look at how the ignition magneto on a lawn mower works, take bits of both circuits and see if that will work.
The lawnmower coil is much smaller, has fewer components, is trigered by the position of a magnet, ""similar"" to the working of the Bedini principle.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 29, 2009, 11:41:36 PM

You know jim,
I appreciate that you went into all that detail about the ig coil,
but not one person including you, including iotayodi has to the present moment answered my very simple question.
Iota Yodi provided a picture, but he did not answer my question either.

period.

I will not repeat the question.
I made it clear.

so thanks but yaknow, a person gets tired of asking the same question over and over.

jeanna

edit add,
@Gary

QuoteThen I tried connecting it using one primary terminal and the secondary tower

Did you happen to notice if the primary terminal was the one that also had the secondary connected to it?

That would have made a loop out of the secondary. I wonder if that is the trick.
Thanks for that information.

j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 29, 2009, 11:42:29 PM

well i got to talking to a friend today ... he had some scrap copper hanging around ... lol

so i got a peace it is called TEC 90 cable ...

;D

it has a ground wire 3 sheilded wires and alum conduit it is rated 1000v 90 amp ;)

now thats a jt!! ;D

i will do some tpu expairmentes with it at some point .. they use it on the XM2 as i hear ...

this will be used with my high freq rectifier and my 3 phase realys and a freq genny :o probally only start with 12dc batteries for now and some caps ..

i wasent gonna take a pic but i will and i love the ign coil design ... aaaahhhh its so otto tpu test lol

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 30, 2009, 12:19:33 AM

@ Jeanna,
:P ha ha, I think I got flammed, he he,,,,,

Is this your question?

Quote from: jeanna on July 29, 2009, 08:41:48 PM
My question was about how the primary and secondary are connected inside the ignition coil.
It seems like one coil; a bifilar in a way.

jeanna

No, it is not a bifilar wound coil.

The ignition coil consists of 2 seperatly wound coils.

The Primary is wound on the laminated iron former first.
The secondary is wound over the primary, and on top of the primary.

The end of the primary is connected to the end of the secondary internally, this is the earth connection.

Try this ere link http://www.geocities.com/capecanaveral/lab/5322/coildrv.htm

someone is driving a ignition coil using 12v battery, a 555 timer and a transistor, he makes reference to toroid and a tesla.

The best one so far I have seen is Mad Teddies, here
http://www.madteddy.com/igncoil.htm now this looks real interresting.

jim

Circuit below is curtesy of Mad Teddies, its a beauty.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 30, 2009, 12:44:47 AM

Quote from: electricme on July 30, 2009, 12:19:33 AM
@ Jeanna,
:P ha ha, I think I got flammed, he he,,,,,

Is this your question?
Quote from: jeanna on Today at 05:41:48 PM

My question was about how the primary and secondary are connected inside the ignition coil.
It seems like one coil; a bifilar in a way.

jeanna

Yes, thank you. It is.

Quote
No, it is not a bifilar wound coil.
...
The end of the primary is connected to the end of the secondary internally, this is the earth connection.

OK so, now I can twist together the 2 wires of the joule thief primary and put them both into the pos rail of the breadboard, and it IS a bifilar wind because of that,

yet,

if the end of the primary of an induction coil is connected to the end of the secondary and they both connect to the pos of the car battery (in that diagram it was the pos) that somehow takes it out of a bifilar and allows it to act as a transformer with all that this word implies.

Yes, this is exactly my question.
IF they are electrically connected, then they are acting just the way the joule thief primary bifilar wires are acting.
(which is NOT a transformer)

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 30, 2009, 01:15:08 AM

the ign coil is my shift coil ....

same shit! just the shift rotates

and you can tap it in a magnetic fasion as to what ever voltage you want

it will be tuned mass to mass or 3 6 or 9 there of ... short stout wire as tesla says and a much longer secondary .. wich is a powered choke coil block it on the input so it has but 1 path ...

take a microwave diode and rectify the out put to a super cap and a wire in the ground ......

ist!

now if you can get the JT from an EB to power the IGN then all you need is a BATCAP and a INVERTOR CONVERTOR RING lol

OR YOU COULD BUILD MY 6 COIL JT FLY BACK BATCAP RING LOL

i can only dream up the ideas .. and only build a few of the many i dream up

what can i say i have done my best on much less than most of your food budgets ... ;)

i have litt light bulbs in the past with just the fly back from 1 freq and 12v 1 amp ..

120v 15 + watt neo zap did a 60 watt .. by hand with out any driveing curcuitry not being rectified and i dont think it matters much the load ..

1 day i make my way through in this world ..

untill then life has me packing up my few things i have left ..

yep makes me wonder ... the hope of a better day .. and being a father to my children is the only thing that keeps me going ... :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 30, 2009, 01:54:38 AM

@Jeanna,

Quote from: jeanna on July 30, 2009, 12:44:47 AM
Yes, thank you. It is.

OK so, now I can twist together the 2 wires of the joule thief primary and put them both into the pos rail of the breadboard, and it IS a bifilar wind because of that,

yet,

if the end of the primary of an induction coil is connected to the end of the secondary and they both connect to the pos of the car battery (in that diagram it was the pos) that somehow takes it out of a bifilar and allows it to act as a transformer with all that this word implies.

NO

Yes, this is exactly my question.
IF they are electrically connected, then they are acting just the way the joule thief primary bifilar wires are acting.
(which is NOT a transformer)

NO
thank you,

jeanna

OK if you look at that above circuit, it is positave earth.

NO, the ignition coil is not a bifillar wound coil.
The connection of the end wires never implies it is bifilar.
It is just 2 separately wound coils, sharing a common iron laminated form.

Bifilar is 2 wires wound together in parallel.

Trifilar is 3 wires wound together in parallel.

It has 2 separately wound coils, separated by a insulating layer.

I have a redundant coil outside which I am willing to pull apart to put an end to all this tommy rot.

It is a bulk standard tesla transformer coil, period.

If the primary coil was wound in a bifilar fashion, (2 separate wires in parallel, which it isn't) then it could be termed a joule thief wound transformer tesla coil.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 30, 2009, 02:39:34 AM

@ electricme

Quote from: electricme on July 30, 2009, 01:54:38 AM
I have a redundant coil outside which I am willing to pull apart to put an end to all this tommy rot.

I do not see the point in doing that. There are two good drawings of what is inside of the coils at the top of previous page and many more available for anyone who is willing to goggle for ignition coil images. I think jeanna is just having a hard time understanding something that seems strange to her. I suspect that in time it will make sense to her.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 30, 2009, 06:02:45 AM

@all

You can make your own minds up about who is right.

Below is a ignition coil I pulled apart late this afternoon.
The last time I looked inside an ignition coil might of been almost 40 years ago, I was curious to know what they would look like now, they have a lot less wire.
I have a couple more here so I won't miss this one.

1222 = Guts of the ign coil together.
1221 = Primary only
1220 = Secondary only

When I lifted up this coil assembly, the Primary and secondary actually fell off by themselves, there probably was about 3 cupfuls of cooling oil, which I saved.

I see NO JOULE THIEF windings on this coil.

@Exee2
I make posts (Text, Pics or MOV files) of what I believe is relavent and right, for the topic at hand, when I want to, I don't need anyone suggesting my posting of them is unhelpful, although I do understand the reason for you suggesting this.

It's also not helpful to allow an injustice to continue when 2 people who have tried to help someone asking for help, and both have been publicly named and copped it in the neck for doing so.

It would be more helpful if this was handled by PMs.
If you think I am being a bit harsh, take a look at this post I made here.

Scroll to #15 (look for it right side of post)

http://forums.altnews.com.au/content/what-can-we-do-about-corruption-docs

I think you will see my nerves are a little bit raw just now

jim
(Ret Auto Electrician)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 30, 2009, 09:35:05 AM

the ign coil is simple .. yes a tesla design indeed ...

oil ... lol

probally why the caps i used with my mot demo years ago .. charged so well

yep just like a water cap cell

the ign coil is 2 coils primary sets up a a magnetic feild .. in the soft iron secoind coil is also powered so the soft iron core is saturated .. and when you cut the flow wheres it gonna go .. if it has but 1 path ?

and when you colpase the magnetic feild it colpases out the fine wire .. hence the spark .. in the plugg

but it dont matter it ALL COMES BACK TO THE KICK ... ALL OF IT ! ;)

IST!

IN MY HV HIGH AMP TPU WITH OUT A CORE WHERE WILL THE COLAPSE GO ... ? ... IT WILL WANT TO RETURN TO WHERE IT CAME FROM BUT IF YOU DONT LET IT WHERE WILL IT GO ..

btw same as my hemf transformer...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 30, 2009, 09:40:44 AM

@ electricme

Sorry if I seemed to be trying to tell you what to do. That was not my intent. I was only trying to save you some work and a coil. But I am glad you did it. The photos you posted are very interesting.

EDIT: What was the core like? Was it just a solid rod of steel or was it laminated somehow?

EDIT 2: It looks like the primary is just a single layer coil. Is that true or am I just not seeing very well?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 30, 2009, 10:37:48 AM

@stpure ...

how does the mac coil work .. ?

much the same as i just posted!!

you have a 10 turn tesla primary .. makeing a magic feild.. when it colapses .. it can not return to the source through the spark gap as the distance is far and the diodes and caps on the cascade block it .... so where does it go ... a skin effect on the 1 turn alum core ... hummmmmm

now what will i do with that teck 90 cable ?

ist!!

zip ties are used for 5 mm spaceing between the wires...

sheesh i never realized how longgggg my thumbs actually are till now lol :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 30, 2009, 10:39:29 AM

Quote from: jeanna on July 29, 2009, 11:41:36 PM

@Gary
Did you happen to notice if the primary terminal was the one that also had the secondary connected to it?

That would have made a loop out of the secondary. I wonder if that is the trick.
Thanks for that information.

j

Jeanna

I just did some simple tests .
There does not seem to be any trick relating to which terminal is used.
My coil has places for connectors to snap in ......no other markings .
I was not sure which one was connected to the secondary .....so I tried them both .......no difference that I could see.

````````````````````````````````````````````````````````

I tried to leaving my JT running last night .
I have been expermenting with feedback.
The feedback network had 4 toroids each one wound bifilar .......20 wraps .
I also found a what seems to be a large isolation transformer
The 4 toroids and the transformer all have one winding in series with the secondary for flyback . On all of them I put the other windings in parrallel and connected them to my Jesus charger for feedback.
Last thing I did is add the ignition coil. ( in series with the JT secondary for flyback )

Running a 90 LED array with the ignition coil I got a max of 150V
I cranked it down to 78 V The Jesus charger will not reach the charge state at full power .

It started with a battery voltage of 1.2V

After 11 hours of running with no adjustments the battery voltage had dropped all the down to 1.248 :) OOoooopppss It dropped up :) I must have did something wrong

I am going to let it run a while longer .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 30, 2009, 10:53:46 AM

not sure you ALL SAW MACS VIDEO HE MADE SOOOOOOOO LONG AGO ....

but i bet those are some powerful sparks..... ;D

impossible to get from a 7.2v 300 ma supply lol

wake up !!

sleepy head!

lol

ist ;D

now i have thease 6 " alum .25" thick ringgs i had machined ... what if i cut the core ring and placed a RELAY COIL IN IT ..... where i cut out the peice..

pulsed the relay ... what will be the result a freq convertor or slower downer ... lol yikes ... too many paths ... where will i go today ... after they try to force feed a flashlight deal on me ... lol

insulting gets you to THE BACK OF THE LINE ... :D ;)

calling me a theif gets you KICKED OUT OF THE LINE UP :P

THINK I DONT KNOW HOW TO BUILD A JT TPU ... LOL

MAYBE YOU MISSED MY POSTS ... :D

but its ok cuz im the boy you will come and see just you wate and see! ;)

MY EYES ARE OPEN WIDE.... BTW ..... IM PACKING OUT TODAY!!!

LISTEN CLOSE ITS ONLY FOR 2DAY I JUST SAW HAILLY'S COMMET SHE WAVED ......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMo45wN81Rw

WILL~I~AM SHINE DOWN SECOND CHANCE!
AND FINAL ONE!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 30, 2009, 12:34:34 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on July 30, 2009, 10:37:48 AM
@stpure ...

how does the mac coil work .. ?

much the same as i just posted!!

you have a 10 turn tesla primary .. makeing a magic feild.. when it colapses .. it can not return to the source through the spark gap as the distance is far and the diodes and caps on the cascade block it .... so where does it go ... a skin effect on the 1 turn alum core ... hummmmmm

now what will i do with that teck 90 cable ?

ist!!

zip ties are used for 5 mm spaceing between the wires...

Very nice IST!

Are you saying that this will produce the HV sparks that MAC's did?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 30, 2009, 01:33:52 PM

Hi everybody,
I found what I was after.
As my head hit the pillow last night I wondered if the question I thought was so simple might not have been so.
I appreciate ALL the help you all gave me and, of course, none of it is ever lost (not on me, anyway).
What I realized is that nobody has asked the question I thought was so simple so of course, nobody had an answer to it. duh! I apologize for any hurt I may have caused, by my dogged persistence!

I found a website today that acknowledges the element I was asking about.
If anyone lurking or otherwise wants to read the page or the website, I provide the page here:
http://www.sentex.net/~mwandel/cannon/sparky.html (http://www.sentex.net/~mwandel/cannon/sparky.html)

The emphasis is mine here,
Here is the important part:

QuoteAn ignition coil is essentially an autotransformer with a high ratio of secondary to primary windings. By "Autotransformer", I mean that the primary and secondary windings are not actually separated - they share a few of the windings.

The ratio of secondary to primary turns in an ignition coil is somewhere around 100:1. The ignition coil is operated directly off a 12 volt source. However, the ignition coil does not work like an ordinary transformer. An ordinary transformer will produce output current at the same time that input current is applied. An ignition coil actually does most of its work acting as an inductor. When the ignition coil is connected to the battery, the inductor is 'charged' with current. It takes a few milliseconds for the current to build up the magnetic field - this on account of reverse voltage caused by the increase in magnetic field. During this short charging period, maybe a thousand volts are produced at the high voltage terminal, not enough to actually cause a spark.

The actual spark is generated when the breaker contacts open. For an ideal inductor, the current and voltage relate by:

V = L dI

Where V is voltage, L is inductance (in henrys) and dI is the rate of change of the current.

Thus, seeing that L is constant for the inductor, the abrupt change in current will cause a very large voltage to be produced. This produces a very short, very high voltage spike. Of course, the change in current is on the primary side, but because the primary and secondary coils have a large mutual inductance (this is where the transformer part comes in), you get a spike on the order of 100 or more volts on the primary, and 10000 volts on the secondary. Even the primary side of the coil can give you a bit of a jolt if you hold the wires wile disconnecting power. Also note that any contacts you will use will get a lot of sparks, also on account of this.

I am also posting this here because of that formula, and because this whole thing is very important with respect to the Tariel invention and the earth battery/inductor experiments.

So, thank you for your indulgence and again for your patience,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 30, 2009, 02:37:37 PM

@ST

YOU HAVE THE FEROITE CORE OR SOFT IRON CORE INDUCTOR .. RUN REALLY FAST LIKE A TURBINE ENGINE ... ;)

then you charge your cascade up send it to a tesla primary ... and it is HIGH FREQ... so it is a little more safe .. till you change it through conversion from cold to hot ..

but i think you may want to BATCAP IT AND USE AN INVERTOR OFF IT ... THEN THE HIGH FREQ DONT MATTER ...

THE SUPER CAP WILL DO THE WORK

and find a rectifier tube ... of low resistance... ;)

eye st

are you telling me you built a flux capacitor for a time MACHINE .... :D back to the future ... :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 30, 2009, 03:03:33 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on July 30, 2009, 01:33:52 PM
Hi everybody,
I found what I was after.

I assumed you already knew that since that is how the JT works when it has a pickup coil. Anyway, I am glad you finally got your question answered in a way you can understand. Hopfully that explanation can help others understand also. Thanks for posting it. By the way, if you look back at my tube circuits you will see that sometimes I tied one end of the pickup coil to one end of the collector coil. So if you have duplicated any of these circuits you have already used a transformer with one end of each coil tied to the other coil. So having the ends tied together is really nothing new.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 30, 2009, 03:37:09 PM

do you have a link xee?

i never knew your a tube guy ...

;D ;D ;D ;D

well now....

ist

i do have a few tubes and access to some nice tube toys... ;D ;D

ill even be sooooo nice to post pictures of the devices and schems.. :D

when i get there ... 1 is the resonat tune corce and fine tune charger ... charges i think 12 12 or 6 volt batteries at 1 time ... all tube driven ... second is a tesla coil of sorts i need to find a replacement tube for it to run it a friends father made it ... sounded pretty kool as the story goes ... ;D

i have not seen the second unit yet ....

but it strikes me as a tesla cone cadisous style device ... thats just wild to see in action as i hear...

it was described to me a long time ago.. and it came up in a most recient conversation lol

;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 30, 2009, 03:47:12 PM

@ ist

Quote from: innovation_station on July 30, 2009, 03:37:09 PM
i never knew your a tube guy ...

Fluorescent tubes ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on July 30, 2009, 04:09:38 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 29, 2009, 07:40:09 PM
@ altrez

Maybe a pictorial will help.

Thank you :) That was a great help!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: IotaYodi on July 30, 2009, 04:49:08 PM

QuoteI apologize for any hurt I may have caused, by my dogged persistence!

Should have not been any hurt. Should only be patience. What may be obvious to some doesn't mean there is only one explanation. Im just glad you found an explanation you understood as it was more detailed.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on July 30, 2009, 05:52:50 PM

@all

If the ignition coil is what has us stopped and not progressing, there is a huge information here:

http://www.abbysenior.com/mechanics/ignition.htm

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on July 30, 2009, 06:00:37 PM

@resonanceman

You are still trying to know the truth of free electricity as all of us.
That is what will take us to the final success.

The photos are what is left of my flyback. But the transistor still gets super hot.

@jeanna

I am not able to answer the PMs I receive. Something is wrong.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 30, 2009, 06:39:41 PM

@ nievesoliveras

Nice coil design. A larger value for your base resistor may solve your transistor heat problem.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 30, 2009, 07:28:04 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on July 30, 2009, 06:00:37 PM
@resonanceman

You are still trying to know the truth of free electricity as all of us.
That is what will take us to the final success.

The photos are what is left of my flyback. But the transistor still gets super hot.

@jeanna

I am not able to answer the PMs I receive. Something is wrong.

Jesus

Jesus

I have found the answer ....... I just have to scale it up big enough to make a difference .

As IST would say it is all in the KICK

:)

So far it is looking like using coils that are bifilar or 1 to 1 works best .
One leg goes for flyback .....one for feedback
I am going to expermemt with the ignition coil soon .....a big boost in voltage like that can open some doors .

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

If I understand your pictures the big coil of mag wire is your coil connected to your emitter .

You might try a different kind of winding style I have been working on .

It is a hybrid , it is a little of all the other ways to wind a primary .

I have found that for JTs a twisted pair works good ....... there is a little magic there somwhere . Did you know that if you have a twisted pair more than a few feet long you can connect the end of one of the pair to the start of the other ........ and hook it up ..... your JT LED will light . Even if your wire is not wrapped around anything.

I have noticed that many of the higher voltage JTs that people have made have only one or 2 wraps for the base winding .

I have found that low resistance helps with the base coil ...... bigger wire could help here .

OK

enough of the why I did it this way

If you want to try remaking your flyback core JT with my winding style ....... take the winding off .
Take a piece of wire and see how much wire it takes to go around the square part of the core ..... ( the round part is used for secondarys )
Mark a section of that wire that will go around the square part about 1 1/2 times ........leave enough for leads on each end . (mine works good with 1 wrap ....1 1/2 might be safer for your first one )

Twist this piece of wire on one end of your green wire ( from your current primary )
When you are done ....... on the end that you use you should have the leads ...... maybe an inch or inch or so of twisted pair .......then the rest of the green wire .

Now ........just start on your twisted pair end and wrap it just like you did before .......only on the square part of the core .
After your first wrap or wrap and a half ...... you will have to move the end of your base coil out of the way ........then just keep wrapping .

Sense the base coil is short and fixed a coil would like this is easy to tune .

Oh yes ......... use your big coil of mag wire as a secondary .

My flyback transformer core JT has one wind of twisted pair and 3 more windings with the single wire .

I taped the square part of the core before I wrapped it ...... just to make sure that it did not cut my wire

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 30, 2009, 07:56:11 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on July 30, 2009, 06:00:37 PM
...

The photos are what is left of my flyback. ...

@jeanna

I am not able to answer the PMs I receive. Something is wrong.

Jesus

Jesus,

Here is the gist of what I wrote in the pm.

Quote from: jeanna last night
"But I think what produced your sparks in your joule thief is the same thing that makes a spark in an ignition coil.

It is because in an ignition coil the primary and secondary are joined at the pos end. (or maybe the neg sometimes, I do not know, but the wires are joined)

If it is a great producer of sparks then your joule thief will also be that whenever it is connected to the pos (or neg) of the battery!!"

I wrote that last night then this morning I found a description of HOW it is a great producer of sparks. So, I think this is the problem you had which sparked over and killed your power device. (my opinion)

I made some videos last year of a NS generator making a small motor turn on using a 3v battery. (btw, the movie shows that the battery charges the cap and runs the motor for 5 seconds then when the battery is removed, the cap continues to run the motor for over 15 seconds, almost 20 seconds.)

The reason for this post is to mention that while I was doing those and other similar tests using the NS generator with a 3v battery, I saw sparks coming off the ends of the wires. They were little sparks, but I was essentially hand pulsing the wires for those tests.

My reason for believing that a NS generator or an ignition coil or other inductor coil when pulsed by a joue thief is capable of giving us enormous power from one AA battery is partly from this observation.

All these things are coming together now.

The damage to your motor device is actually good news.
I am sorry to say that, but this means that the power we want is there and in great enough amounts to be useful.

So Jesus,
thank you for having this calamity!!

thank you otherwise too,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 30, 2009, 08:46:03 PM

@Xee2,

Thankyou for your reply and I accept this.

Quote from: xee2 on July 30, 2009, 09:40:44 AM
@ electricme

Sorry if I seemed to be trying to tell you what to do. That was not my intent. I was only trying to save you some work and a coil. But I am glad you did it. The photos you posted are very interesting.

EDIT: What was the core like? Was it just a solid rod of steel or was it laminated somehow?

EDIT 2: It looks like the primary is just a single layer coil. Is that true or am I just not seeing very well?

The core is made up of several lamination's of special steel, these are designed to soak up more magnetic flux so when the circuit breaks, this heaver flux collapses with more strength.
The steel core has a total of 39 separate pieces of thin flat transformer steel.
Dimensions are --- Length 3.738.5 inches
Width .398 inches
Thickness .012 inches
Wire size is Primary coil .016 inches (I don't know what this is in SWG)

This coil has 6 layers, each layer has 36 turns = 216 turns in total.
Each layer has a single thin sheet of insulation between every layer, and this is just the 12v Primary coil. (might be for oil circulation)

Coil width is made up of 36 turns which gives a single layer width of 1 inch
Total coil "former" width is 2 inches.

I pressed my "new" vernier gauge into service this morning for the first time, what a wonderful feeling to be able to tell you all the wire sizes I am mucking around with.

Before I could measure the length of wire used on 1 layer, I got it tangled up in my shoes, so , ha ha I lengthened it a bit, but I estimate it was about 10 feet of wire, so its full length would be close to 60 feet of wire.

Secondary HV Coil .012 inches (haven't done anymore with it yet)

I have to get my second EB/EC made up, this episode has interrupted it, but never mind, worse things have happened.

jim

@ Jeanna,

Sorry to hear about those very high temperatures of 38.7 degrees, when you said it was hot I didn't know just how hot it was, that could make anyone a bit off on a normal day.
Hope those temps get lower soon.

Make up a passieve cooling frame, drape a big beach towel or something that will allow wind to pass through it (Big Chux Wipes) over it, then poor water over the towel.
Put a fan behind the towel about 3 feet away from it. (powerful fan).

You go and sit on the other side, and you will be surprised how quick you will feel the benefit from this.

If you set it up in a door way, then you will be able to cool the room down also.
If you hang some hessian from the top of the door frame so it covers the whole door it will work better.

Make sure you open the windows to allow the flow of air to proceed.

Another thing, if you have a concrete slab out side, throw a bucket of water over it, the evaporation will cause the air to cool down around it.
If the wind is blowing in your direction that is.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 30, 2009, 09:05:08 PM

im glad everyone is haveing great secucess

;D

i just drew up my tpu unit ...

wow lol

i will power the 3 control coils and 3 collector coils but the fly back can only flow through the collector so i get the hot i put in and the fly back cold through the same 3 wires and they combine as 1 ou put :D 8)

lol

tic abc tic abc tic abc ........abc are caps filled from jt's lol :D ;) great work jesus and gary you guys are makeing this what it truely is .. we all are .. :)

ist

i will use heavy amp bridges .. to isolate the fly back from blowing up the source of the pulse ... and since i power control coil and collector from the same spot it has no choise but to go where i let it go ... ;) that is right through the coil .... the collector .. then you could rectify it all 3 if you wanted same as my 3 stack tpu ... only 1 loop .. tho

hears a pic of my 3 phase mac style tpu ... alum core ... bout 12"

here is a pic of my otto style 3 phase copper core tpu .. 1000v 90 amp wire teck 90 22 ga layered push coils all wound same turns dirrection and mass

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 30, 2009, 09:06:22 PM

@Jeanna,

Thankyou for posting this, it is one of the best discriptions I have seen of the "invisible" working of the ign coil.

Quote from: jeanna on July 30, 2009, 01:33:52 PM
Hi everybody,
I found what I was after.
As my head hit the pillow last night I wondered if the question I thought was so simple might not have been so.
I appreciate ALL the help you all gave me and, of course, none of it is ever lost (not on me, anyway).
What I realized is that nobody has asked the question I thought was so simple so of course, nobody had an answer to it. duh! I apologize for any hurt I may have caused, by my dogged persistence!

I found a website today that acknowledges the element I was asking about.
If anyone lurking or otherwise wants to read the page or the website, I provide the page here:
http://www.sentex.net/~mwandel/cannon/sparky.html (http://www.sentex.net/~mwandel/cannon/sparky.html)

The emphasis is mine here,
Here is the important part:

I am also posting this here because of that formula, and because this whole thing is very important with respect to the Tariel invention and the earth battery/inductor experiments.

So, thank you for your indulgence and again for your patience,

jeanna

Did you notice the reference to "another" pulse of energy here, I refer to the 100volt flyback through the 12v primary, I recon a well placed diode here would recharge the battery with "radiant" energy, except the pulse would fri electronics, mabe a toroid wired as a choke on all cables from the battery would snuff it out, a bit of hmmm deep thinking required now.
How did I miss this all these years, one could setup a second battery in the car with a change over switch, wow.

Excellent post Jeanna.

Now I go to get back to my EB building, I'm determined to see a series cell EB/EC setup here

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 30, 2009, 10:23:05 PM

Another untested design. This is simpler and should work better. I do not have an ignition coil to test it with yet. The wire wrapped around the ignition coil acts as the base coil for the JT and the ignition coil primary acts as the collector coil for the JT. The ignition coil secondary acts as the JT pickup coil.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 30, 2009, 10:26:30 PM

XEE2:

That looks like a cool design. Do you really think it will work? It looks so easy....even I could make this one. Very nice.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 30, 2009, 10:41:52 PM

i have an ign coil but mine is a steel case ...

i do have some lawn mower coils ... ;D a bunch in fact ... i dont see why i cant pop a relay coil on them tho and protect the sw .. and force it out that coil .... plus those give 1 hell of a smaker... lol

yikes ...

i might just have a fly back core that would work well there lol but i bet i can bombard the lamanted iron core ... ;D

ist...

im just packing anywhy ... so as i find stuff i whip it up as im down sizeing my junk any how ;)

there is no reason you could not do it mechanical .. and build it from junk motors all you would need to do is find 4 old lawn mower motors you could just use it as it is designed and charge bat caps fast all you pay for is the engery to move the magnet .. past the coil .. and btw when you spin it faster ... the easyer it gets .. less drag it would be a GOOD RING OF FIRE TO GO ALONG WITH MY SELF CHARGEING SELF RUNNING PULSE MOTOR 8)

just for some grunt ;) the thing is spinning any way .... why not tap the mechinical side of it too with another ou generator from 100 + years ago .... lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 30, 2009, 11:15:19 PM

@ Pirate88179

Quote from: Pirate88179 on July 30, 2009, 10:26:30 PM
Do you really think it will work?

I think it should at least light up a neon bulb. I think it will work better than Fuji board. But, then again, it may not work at all.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on July 30, 2009, 11:27:42 PM

@xee2

When I put a bigger resistor it does not work.
When it has the right resistor, the resistor gets extremely hot.
I ordered an mje13009 transistor and resistros with 5w strenght.
Lets see what happens.

@resonanceman

This specific flyback configuration has 5b-5c winding. When I put a 22r on the circuit and the circuit is connected to a spiral fluoro, the spiral fluoro lights for a few seconds before the resistor and the transistor get too hot to work.

I stored your explanation and the photos of your flyback configuration.
I will eventually will make the experiment.

@jeanna

This flyback coil I composed with what was left of the flyback circuit when is cold, the neon bulb lights with just one cable from the pickup coil. It is an excellent joule thief coil, the only thing needed is a good transistor that can stand the amperage that heats the circuit.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 30, 2009, 11:44:02 PM

@Xee2

Now this is very interesting, using the magnetic pulse to excite another pulse to trigger the transistor.

Quote from: xee2 on July 30, 2009, 10:23:05 PM
Another untested design. This is simpler and should work better. I do not have an ignition coil to test it with yet. The wire wrapped around the ignition coil acts as the base coil for the JT and the ignition coil primary acts as the collector coil for the JT. The ignition coil secondary acts as the JT pickup coil.

Excellent theory.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on July 30, 2009, 11:46:34 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on July 30, 2009, 09:05:08 PM
im glad everyone is haveing great secucess

;D

i just drew up my tpu unit ...

... :D ;) great work jesus and gary you guys are makeing this what it truely is .. we all are .. :)

ist

Thank you @ist !

It would be great If I understood more of all the Tpus that you have made. But I dont understand much about Tpus.

I know that you will not do it. But it would be great if you add the circuit of the invention that you show on your thousand photos.

We would be richer in knowledge if you had posted circuits explained of how to do the device shown on the photos you have posted.

Anyway, we appreciate you the way you are!!!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 30, 2009, 11:54:41 PM

im not sure i understand you jesus...

it can only work 1 way ...

hummmm

it cant be hard to hook it up

all your doing is a jt .... the loop is your output wire .. or alum .... you use a diode to block and protect .. or a bridge

there is a switch a cap 2 coils and a bridge how hard is it ? just charge the cap and push the button ....

ill draw you a picture ...

lol

ist!

THAT DIODE IS GOOD FOR LIKE 240 000 WATTS..... ;) 600V 220AMP X 2 HIGH VOLT HIGH FREQ RECTIFIER ... PRETTY MUCH A QUATER MEGGA WATT .. DEPENDS ON HOW I USE IT

LAST PIC TO PROTECT SWITCHES .. if you put a cap where the bulb is you get your engery u sent through and the colapse or kick..... 8) in that cap ... first your hot then your cold ......

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 31, 2009, 12:22:04 AM

@All,

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

I have made all the necessary parts to assemble my newest Multiple Earth Electrode Battery/Cells, (this is getting to be a mouthful to say).

What should I or We ALL call it as?

Remember Greg posted a bit back it should be a Earth Cell Battery, so if everyone is happy with this ECB might be it's terminology.

I have made photos of every step of the way to document it.
I have just come back inside to post I have a great success.

MY ECB WORKS as I expected it wood do.

My best DMM says the ECB is putting out 5.33 volts in SERIES and climbing.

Thats right, I am getting a SERIES voltage out of 7 independant cells wired in series configuration.

ITS ALL IN THE INSULATION, INSULATION IS THE KEY

ALL THE CELLS ARE VERY CLOSE TO EACH OTHER IN THE SAME AREA OF GROUND
THEY ARE SMALL CELLS NOT LONG AT ALL, JUST SHORT TUBES WITH ZINC N 4 INCH NAILS POKEING IN THE MIDDLE OF EACH CELL

THE OUTSIDE OF THE CELL IS COPPER PIPE IT IS POSITAVE

THE ZINC ROD IN THE MIDDLE BECOMES THE NEGATIVE OUTPUT

WIND INSULATION AROUND THE OUTSIDE OF THE COPPER PIPE

RAM IT IN THE GROUND

FILL THE CENTER OF THE PIPE WITH DIRT

THEN WATER IT TO BED IN ALL CONTACT WITH THE EARTH.

THATS IT

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

This means I Have SUCCEEDED in making a higher voltage out of a Series Connected Earth Cell Battery System.

I am excited, wooooooooah Whackooooo Yippeeeeeee

THE IMPOSSIBLE IS DONE WAKEUP FOLKS STOP SLEEPING IN THE BEDS

GETUP TAKE A LOOK YAHHHHHHHHOOOOOOOO I'm giddy with successss

Photos dont lye Proof proof proof

Arrrrrrh time for a cuppa Teeeeee

COMON WAKEUP ALL, USE PEOPLE GET OUTA BED, THIS IS HOORAY CELEBRATION STUFF.

GOSH look at all this above stuff, looks like IST was ere lol

JIM

lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 31, 2009, 12:43:38 AM

Excellent Jim,

Now we will be able to know one way or the other if this is a galvanic battery and/or if the earth microbes or whatever will be able to supply the needed ions.
Until now it has all been guesswork and theory.

Thank you Jim for doing this!

Maybe you can run your Air conditioners on this... would that not be coool?

good stuff,
How about a scopeshot or 3 on the datalogging thread?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 31, 2009, 12:55:31 AM

verry nice jim ...

i bet it will make a great jt tpu power supply ... lol ;)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 31, 2009, 01:09:05 AM

@ Jeanna,

I've cooled down a bit now :-[ ha ha, but I did get carried away with the moment.

Quote from: jeanna on July 31, 2009, 12:43:38 AM
Excellent Jim,

Now we will be able to know one way or the other if this is a galvanic battery and/or if the earth microbes or whatever will be able to supply the needed ions.
Until now it has all been guesswork and theory.

Thank you Jim for doing this!

Maybe you can run your Air conditioners on this... would that not be coool?

good stuff,
How about a scopeshot or 3 on the datalogging thread?

jeanna

Excellent suggestions, but first I will have to cut up and run another power extension lead, I have 4 leads running from my other ECB experiments, another one wont matter, then I will connect the scope to it.

I want to put a LED accross the output and see what happens.

My main thing I wanted to do was create a series ECB, just to see if it could be done, and it can.

I recon by upgrading all components to much larger ones, amps are possible, with higher voltage also.

I should bottle up some cold air here and send to you there, you are really suffering in this heat, it will be my turn in 6 months.

Thanks for the congrats :D

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 31, 2009, 01:12:46 AM

@IST

Thank you, wow, I was so excited with this success.

Quote from: innovation_station on July 31, 2009, 12:55:31 AM
verry nice jim ...

i bet it will make a great jt tpu power supply ... lol ;)

ist!

Yes, it will make a great power supply, just getting bigger components to do this will be difficult, but I'm sure I will succeed.

Got to cutup a extension lead, take a LED holder apart, need the leds to test this ECB lol.

hooroo

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on July 31, 2009, 01:14:37 AM

@ist

It is a little difficult for us newbies to understand the details that you already know.

To be successful on teaching your great knowledge about the TPU systems I recommend using an approach like this.

Remember, even though it seems that I know electronics, I am just a newbie and there are a lot other newbies that if not given the details will never understand.

The devil is on the details.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 31, 2009, 01:18:43 AM

Jim:

Way to go buddy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There it is. Great photos too. This is great news and you deserve the recognition and credit for this.

I still think we should be calling these EER's. (Earth energy Receivers) No matter what the configuration, I now believe it is not a battery at all. (And never was, even in NS's time)

How is the power on these? Have you had a chance to check that yet? Have you tried parallel also? (Lots of questions from over here in KY)

I tried to answer your pm but the site would not let me. I will try again later.

So, as Jeanna said, you could run your heat from this if you had enough of these in your yard? And this is not even taking into account supercaps or JT cirrcuits.....man...look out!

Very nice job Jim, very nice indeed.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on July 31, 2009, 01:19:10 AM

At General @electricme

I join to the celebration of your success and do expect that the energy produced wont be galvanic.

You desrve the success you have had!!!

We appreciate you very much General Jim.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 31, 2009, 01:20:20 AM

@ Jesus:

I agree, I believe the General deserves more stars.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 31, 2009, 01:22:24 AM

@ electricme

Quote from: electricme on July 31, 2009, 12:22:04 AM
This means I Have SUCCEEDED in making a higher voltage out of a Series Connected Earth Cell Battery System.

Congratulations. That means you can get any voltage you want just be adding more cells. Very cool.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 31, 2009, 01:26:01 AM

thank you for your drawing jesus ..

it is correct ...

cap does not matter nor does the out put ... ;D

ist!

it will be more than you applied even in 1 pulse ..

please try it

this is ottos work i just added a few things and yea!

nuttin new .. well maybe jims work ;D ;D ;D ;D

i never ever built an EB but now i will have to do so ...... thanks jim .... lol like i needed more to do lol :D ;D

do you think mutipul zink nails in the center will boost amps... ? or how about zink coated iron wire ... i just happen to have pounds of it ... lol and have an unlimited free supply of it ...

say i took like 30 strands in a bunch and wraped 1 around the outside ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 31, 2009, 01:27:34 AM

Xee2:

Exactly! This may mean 2,000 volts WITHOUT even adding a JT circuit. There is no telling where this will lead as he has used readily available materials that just about all of us can replicate.

My question of alignment is still in my mind. I wonder if that makes any difference (improvement) with this type of approach at all? ??? ???

A few more cells and he can light a floro tube!!

I am looking forward to the scope shots to see if those funky spikes are still there.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 31, 2009, 01:39:13 AM

@ Jesus

Bottom right of the IST photo looks like a bulb, its a filliament I think.
The wire going to it goes down under the bulb center contact, exits out the side to earth, mabye.

Quote from: nievesoliveras on July 31, 2009, 01:14:37 AM
@ist

It is a little difficult for us newbies to understand the details that you already know.

To be successful on teaching your great knowledge about the TPU systems I recommend using an approach like this.

Remember, even though it seems that I know electronics, I am just a newbie and there are a lot other newbies that if not given the details will never understand.

The devil is on the details.

Jesus

Very interresting circuit, ? = iron ring?
press the button and it dumps the power ZAP into the ring, magnetic fiels resonates, bingo more zap and grunt.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 31, 2009, 01:53:17 AM

@ Bill

Thanks mate, for the congrats, its been a long haul as you are aware.

Quote from: Pirate88179 on July 31, 2009, 01:18:43 AM
Jim:

Way to go buddy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There it is. Great photos too. This is great news and you deserve the recognition and credit for this.

I still think we should be calling these EER's. (Earth energy Receivers) No matter what the configuration, I now believe it is not a battery at all. (And never was, even in NS's time)

How is the power on these? Have you had a chance to check that yet? Have you tried parallel also? (Lots of questions from over here in KY)

I tried to answer your pm but the site would not let me. I will try again later.

So, as Jeanna said, you could run your heat from this if you had enough of these in your yard? And this is not even taking into account supercaps or JT cirrcuits.....man...look out!

Very nice job Jim, very nice indeed.

Bill

I will try all these out as soon as I can, I got a lot to do right now, I went out just before to check up on it, the V have fallen to 4 v and a bit, but I expected this, lets see what happens over the next week, I want to let this cell arangement settle down before I do anything drastic with it.

BUT, it is STILL outputting in volts and it is in series, which is really something.

@ all,
I know I should have announced this on Bills EB forum, but I needed to post here first, well you all know me here, and I wanted to share this with you all first. I will fill the other site up with the details, he he.

jim

@Jeanna,
With the heat, shop around for a tarp, which has a silver or white reflective coating, make a leen-too with it, and setup shop there, bounce that heat up and away, or paint the roof with silver reflective paint, like most places out my way, or knock a hole in the attic and blow the hot air out of the inside of the roof.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 31, 2009, 02:05:57 AM

@Jesus

Shucks, I don't need more stars, dey gettin tooo heavy lol
Yes lets hope it is not galvanic, well, we will seee, gulp.
Its nice to know I am appreceiated, and it means a lot just now, thanks Jesus.

Quote from: nievesoliveras on July 31, 2009, 01:19:10 AM
At General @electricme

I join to the celebration of your success and do expect that the energy produced wont be galvanic.

You desrve the success you have had!!!

We appreciate you very much General Jim.

Jesus

He, I just had a bad thought, what say Ist carnt replicate my success, huuuum, wont that be something, lol.

Seriously though, this has been a wonderful day for me, I've had Fun Fun Fun and I so glad to have shared it all with the best bunch of Blokes and Lady on the Overunity Forum.

We all have our moments, and we all kick and holler at each other like brothers and sisters, BUT know how to say sorry, and we get on with the main job at hand.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 31, 2009, 02:10:17 AM

@ Jim:

OK, you have had more than enough time.... are you getting 500kW out of your set-up yet????? (Ha ha)

Seriously, I really can't wait to see what happens next.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 31, 2009, 02:13:16 AM

@ Xee2

Thanks Xee for the congrats, and you are very right, just add them for higher voltages.

Quote from: xee2 on July 31, 2009, 01:22:24 AM
@ electricme

Congratulations. That means you can get any voltage you want just be adding more cells. Very cool.

I see IST is going to do some gardening in a hurry, use a sharp shuvvvvle IST, it goes faster he he.

I was looking for your post here, I noticed in a previous look through but couldnt see it, I wanted to thank everyone as each post came in.

I see I have some PMs so I gota go there shortly.

But first, could you throw up a quick circuit for us all, showing all 7 cells, showing a plastic which goes from the outside, down and under the bottom each cell, its an important key to the series EER as Bill suggests.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 31, 2009, 02:44:01 AM

just cuz i love to build things...

wonder if it will improve the output ...

ist

thought to manifstation in an hour or 2 lol

yikes ... zapping right along ... :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 31, 2009, 02:46:16 AM

@ IST
I must apologise if I have hogged your own breakthrew here, I came first he he.

Hi Ist, I have some important info, and it is something I discovered today
You can use different metal configurations to get the same result, but it gives opersate polaritory.

Quote from: innovation_station on July 31, 2009, 01:26:01 AM
thank you for your drawing jesus ..

it is correct ...

cap does not matter nor does the out put ... ;D

ist!

it will be more than you applied even in 1 pulse ..

please try it

this is ottos work i just added a few things and yea!

nuttin new .. well maybe jims work ;D ;D ;D ;D

i never ever built an EB but now i will have to do so ...... thanks jim .... lol like i needed more to do lol :D ;D

(my pleassure he he)

do you think mutipul zink nails in the center will boost amps... ? or how about zink coated iron wire ... i just happen to have pounds of it ... lol and have an unlimited free supply of it ...

say i took like 30 strands in a bunch and wraped 1 around the outside ..

OK a few days ago I made my very first successful series cells, as Bill suggests we call it a EER setup, I'm in favor of calling it anything that is approperate, and if it is easy to remember.

(Earth Energy Recovery)

I used th efirst materials that came to hand, I used for the outside electrode a aluminium pipe, it was a handle I took off one of those electric scooters with tiny belt driven wheels.

I grabbed a roll of insulation tape, and insulated the "outside" of the ally pipe.
I alowed the tape to go over the bottom edge of the pipe, then I tucked/poked the overhanging insulation tape, inside the bottom of the ally tube.

Next I drove the pipe into the earth, if the earth is too hard, break the soil up with a pick and shuvvle.

Next I got the soft earth and filled the ally tube to the top.
Next I rammed the earth in good and tight.

Next I got a bit of 1/2 dia copper pipe, and drove it into the middle of the earth which is inside the ally pipe, DONT go past the end of the bottom of the ally pipe.

This makes up 1 EER cell

Make as many as you need to, to get what ever voltage you need.

This arrangement -- Aluminium outside metal with a Copper inner electrode produces POSITAVE on the CENTER of the cell, Ally is the NEGATIVE.

NOW, if you use a COPPER outside metal, with a ZINC (coated nail) inner electrode, produces POSITAVE on the OUTSIDE, NEGATIVE is the Center electrode.

The Energy is SWAPPED around.

I now have 2 seperate EER assemblies, close to each other, but their polarity is oppersate to each other, but they are being powered by the same earth energy, at the same time.

Its very important to remember that different metals will produce an opersate polarity EER energy device.

jim

OK, my theory is this.

It stands to reason, that the more pipes EER cells you apply, the higher voltage you will get out, I don't know if there is a limit or not, no idea at all.

BUT, it alsdo stands to reason, if one was to use much bigger pipe, and longer pipe, then it would be possible to get AMPS with volts, now, that is serious power in my book.

I found after putting all my EER cells in the ground, each one measured .5 volts independantly, in series, it was 1.7 volts which is the best I have EVER had, but when I added the WATER to each EER cell, then around the outside of the whole arrangement, then it took off.

It was amazing to see the voltage RISE as I filled each EER cell

jim

Should you use pounds of wire? of course.
Get a plastic former and wind a single layer, from go to whu, tack solder it make a simple electrode, youcould make the same with a rolled sheet of any metal.

The two metals you use, must not touch each other, if you want amps, I think get the inside electrode as close as you can to the outer electrode, wrap the innner electrode in some thing that is porus, paper will work CHUX wipe should be better. I think it is a mass thing or cross sectional area thing, the more metal you have exposed the more energy is picked up by the EER assembly.

If you want, pm me with your number and I wil talk to you about this.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 31, 2009, 02:59:15 AM

zink and alum tryed that ? just the 2?

i got no copper pipe ...

got some flat stock alum .. i could roll up in layers like a cap it is painted 1 side ... for alum trim work i was a cladder many years ... ;D

i sold my break a wile ago .... sick of that crap ... lol

so i took up inventing ... so far i have not made much at it at all but i have learned alot ... in my travels ...

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 31, 2009, 03:01:54 AM

@Bill

LOL,

Quote from: Pirate88179 on July 31, 2009, 02:10:17 AM
@ Jim:

OK, you have had more than enough time.... are you getting 500kW out of your set-up yet????? (Ha ha)

Seriously, I really can't wait to see what happens next.

Bill

You carnt wait, me tooo mate, no I'm stuck with a tiny tiny tiny amount of power, but to prove the principle, I had to make it a small EER setup, cause this all I had, but I proved its possible, it can be done.

I got the volts flowing, mabe IST can get the grunt flowing also, this is a breakthrew, a real one.

Kilowatts, hmmmm just you wait, he he, it will come, there will be a race here no doubt to make the first, just think of the posibilities.

I need only 24v DC at 20 amps to power up my 1 KW UPS, then we will be away.
I think each cell would need to be about 3 meters in length to get amps.
I don't know if distances between cells matter just yet, though it could do.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 31, 2009, 03:05:14 AM

@ IST,

No, I havent tried Zinc and Alum.

Aluminium and copper does work, polaritory, Positave always seems to stay with the copper electrode.

jim

Quote from: innovation_station on July 31, 2009, 02:59:15 AM
zink and alum tryed that ? just the 2?

i got no copper pipe ...

got some flat stock alum .. i could roll up in layers like a cap it is painted 1 side ... for alum trim work i was a cladder many years ... ;D

i sold my break a wile ago .... sick of that crap ... lol

so i took up inventing ... so far i have not made much at it at all but i have learned alot ... in my travels ...

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 31, 2009, 03:22:17 AM

Quote from: electricme on July 31, 2009, 03:05:14 AM
@ IST,

No, I havent tried Zinc and Alum.

Aluminium and copper does work, polaritory, Positave always seems to stay with the copper electrode.

jim

perhaps we can set up a neg potencial in a cap and set it into orbit :D ;D

lol

;)

good night you all

peace round the globe... 8)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 31, 2009, 04:22:48 AM

@All :D

I just went outside and rechecked my EER setup, it is still rolling along, voltage has dropped as expected, but it is still shuvving out 3 volts.
I think it is getting into settleing down mode, and if it makes it, the voltage should improve again shortly.

Anyway, it was time to see if I could get it to do something, and so I connected a LED to its output. ;D

Ha ha ha, it works, very nicely thank you all, he he the White LED light up nice and brightly. I got it propped up against the fence so I see if it gets dim or brighter. Going to keep my eye on it overnight. ;)

I got another LED and connected it in parallel, it lit up also, but they dimmed slightly, BUT it works, wow, connect a JT to this system and we are arrrrwayyyyyyy ;D ;D ;D ;D

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 31, 2009, 04:48:32 AM

Jim:

Wow, that looks good and bright! I am sure you could run a JT circuit right now as you said...easily. I can't believe how tightly grouped together you have made these cells. They take up no space at all really. I could fit 100 of those cells in my little garden here at my little apartment.

Great work. Stay warm down there. Maybe Jeanna can send you some heat...I am sure she would be happy to get rid of some from what I have been hearing on the news.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 31, 2009, 12:00:45 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on July 31, 2009, 01:26:01 AM
...
say i took like 30 strands in a bunch and wrapped 1 around the outside ..

HMM,

I like that idea, ist.

It combines the progress Sm0ky2 made the other day with the progress Jim made today.
It is a little like the Stubblefield combination idea.
Since I think the earth energies are 'random' pulsed currents, (and I can even see them now on my scope) I think this multiple approach is a really good idea.

Please follow it through and let us in on the results! (you always do, just know I/we are watching).

The part I will do is to find a couple of closely matched - I hope- NS coils and put them into the ground where my simple probes are and see how they work as a combo EER and EB... or something.

The maritime rolled in this morning. Such relief! All my nerves are smoothed and soothed. I may not be able to send in any good scope shots with the overcast sky, but I am happy with that today.

I will report any EER or EB results on their threads.

thank you all,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: zpezpffan on July 31, 2009, 12:36:33 PM

Hello all,

I have been working with a project that started to be a Jule Thief and has "evolved".

It is using a 1K center tapped audio transformer as the coil (typical cap. feedback) and is running off ~3V while
driving a green LED (just my favorite color). I am also using some diodes to put some energy back into the battery (pulse - charging it). It isn't much, but it IS fun
to tinker with.

(I am very happy to be here with you others who seem to know so much more than me.)

I will try to get a schematic together and get it up here.

(This is certainly NOT overunity, but I think it deserves looking into a lot more as a "green" device.)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 31, 2009, 01:11:40 PM

@electricjim

Hi , nice battery , you could try fertilizing your battery with potassium high content fertilizer , to boost the electrolyte content of the soil.

Galvanic scale ...

differential copper +0.34 , iron -0.44 = +0.780 volts potential

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: maw2432 on July 31, 2009, 01:20:47 PM

Sorry if this has been explored before, but the last 2 or 3 years of many people trying to replicate the SM TPU with various coils made me wonder if there is something to this left-hand winding of the coils. Anyone wind their coils this manner on a JT? What effect does a left-handed winding have with a coil? Does it make a difference?

quote from the good Dr. Schwartz from a post on the 3 KWatts ERR topic .

" Much of my research over the past 17 years has proved that these new kinds of materials can cause different affects when it comes to magnetic fields. Iâ€™m already using left-handed material in my ERR (Electromagnetic Radiation Receiver) experiments. Iâ€™ve proven this theory with my ERR prototype. Lawrence Rayburn a researcher of electromagnetic fields has also proved this theory with his left-hand wound coils. Even though some of us have proven the left-hand theory, no one seems to want to admit that we have disproved one of the sacred laws of nature."

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 31, 2009, 01:24:31 PM

Quote from: zpezpffan on July 31, 2009, 12:36:33 PM
Hello all,

I have been working with a project that started to be a Jule Thief and has "evolved".

It is using a 1K center tapped audio transformer as the coil (typical cap. feedback) and is running off ~3V while
driving a green LED (just my favorite color). I am also using some diodes to put some energy back into the battery (pulse - charging it). It isn't much, but it IS fun
to tinker with.

(I am very happy to be here with you others who seem to know so much more than me.)

I will try to get a schematic together and get it up here.

(This is certainly NOT overunity, but I think it deserves looking into a lot more as a "green" device.)

ooo its so more ou than you realize ... lol

thank you jeanna but i dont think i will build it ...

maybe when i move into my tent... but im not thinking that far ahead 1 day at a time ...

its all i can do ... ill just solve some more riddles and give them to you all we all already know we wont make a dime they just take take take ... so be it

BUT THEY CAN NOT TAKE WHAT I HAVE EXPOSED ...

NOR WILL THEY MAKE MONEY FROM IT ... ;D AND SHOULD THEY ... WELL ILL FIND SOME LAWERS TO TIE THERE SHIT UP ... ;)

OOOO YES THE TESLA KICK TRICK SURE IS SOMETHING ...

BUT THE REAL REALITY IS THERE IS NOTHING MORE ADVANCED ON THE PLANNET THAN THE WORK WE ARE PRESUEING ..

BABY STEPS TILL WERE FULL GROWEN ... ;)

WILLIAM

BTW far more to the left hand than all the righties think lol ;) far more to the kick earth and the universe .. as well ;)

maybe 1 day ... BUT NOT TILL IM FUNDED! ;D EVEN THEN YOU GET WHAT I CHOOSE TO GIVE ... ;) UNLESS YOU FIGURE IT OUT THEN SPEEK IT ...

PERSONALLY I DONT CARE ANYMORE ... SURE YOU CAN REDISCOVER ALL YOU WANT ... BUT SOME OF THEASE THINGS ONLY WORK IN SOME OF THE HANDS ON THE PLANNET ...

IMAGINE ;D 8) :o :o

BTW FOR OVERUNITY ... IF I WAS TO APPLY 1 V AND GET 10 V IS THIS NOT OU ? IF I WAS ABLE TO APPLY 1 WATT AND GET 10 IS THIS NOT OVERUNITY ...

IF I WAS ABLE TO START MY RINGS ON 1 VOLT WITH A 30 SECOND INPUT AND THEY RUNN FOREVER I GUESS THIS IS NOT OVERUNITY EATHER

DEFINE OVERUNITY ... LOL

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 31, 2009, 01:43:31 PM

Here is the chart I have been using:

Metals and Soils
Potential Differences of metals
(Soil Galvanic series)
Metal
... Potential
V Cu/CuSO4 electrode
Magnesium (pure) -1.75
Magnesium (alloy) -1.60
Zinc -1.10
Alluminum (alloy) -1.05
Aluminum (pure) -0.8
Steel (clean) -0.50 to -0.80
Steel (rusted) -0.20 to -0.50
Cast Iron -0.50
Lead -0.50
Steel (concrete) -0.20
Copper -0.20
Brass -0.20
Bronze -0.20
Steel (mill scale) -0.20
Cast iron (high silicon) -0.20
Carbon +0.30
Graphite +0.30
Coke +0.30
Notes:
Non-uniform conditions at node surface

This is where I got the idea to use magnesium and carbon.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 31, 2009, 02:17:04 PM

Quote from: maw2432 on July 31, 2009, 01:20:47 PM
...made me wonder if there is something to this left-hand winding of the coils. Anyone wind their coils this manner on a JT? What effect does a left-handed winding have with a coil? Does it make a difference?
..

Bill

Hi Bill,
This is unclear to me.

Would you be willing to define how I would wind a toroid in a left hand way?

Maybe it is this that makes the magic of the toroid. Maybe the right hand turns into left hand when it crosses the centerline. ie. beyond half way around.

But nevermind that for a moment, I would like you to say very clearly, because I know you can, exactly what it means.

eg coming out of the center wrapping over the top and then under, progressing to the left..
Or how ever it is when it is left hand rule.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: maw2432 on July 31, 2009, 02:48:05 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 31, 2009, 02:17:04 PM
Hi Bill,
This is unclear to me.

Would you be willing to define how I would wind a toroid in a left hand way?

Maybe it is this that makes the magic of the toroid. Maybe the right hand turns into left hand when it crosses the centerline. ie. beyond half way around.

But nevermind that for a moment, I would like you to say very clearly, because I know you can, exactly what it means.

eg coming out of the center wrapping over the top and then under, progressing to the left..
Or how ever it is when it is left hand rule.

thank you,

jeanna

Jeanna,

Sorry, I have no idea about winding coils with respect to left-hand vs. right-hand rule. Maybe IST can explain?
He seems to indicate that it may be key to OU in his last post.

The quote from Dr. Schwartz refers to this guy Lawrence Rayburn which I could only find a small amount of info on at this link. (just a contributor to the circut) (edit)

http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Radiant_Energy_Antenna_System

My quick scan of the info did not make it clear to me.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 31, 2009, 03:09:08 PM

nope i can not explain ...

key to ou is to reuse ... peroid...

i can get ou from every single coil i have ever wound ...

hummm left or right

it is all in the KICK as GARRY SAYS... ;D ;)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on July 31, 2009, 03:35:25 PM

Quote from: electricme on July 31, 2009, 01:39:13 AM
@ Jesus

Bottom right of the IST photo looks like a bulb, its a filliament I think.
The wire going to it goes down under the bulb center contact, exits out the side to earth, mabye.

Very interresting circuit, ? = iron ring?
press the button and it dumps the power ZAP into the ring, magnetic fiels resonates, bingo more zap and grunt.

jim

I dont know what it is but @ist said that it is not important and neither the cpacitor. Very weird.

The ? means that the information is incomplete. How many turns, Wire gauge etc.
It seems that we need to search for @otto's work...
So I will let it pass for the moment and finish my tesla coil study first.

@ist just loves to talk in riddles.

Quote from: innovation_station on July 31, 2009, 01:26:01 AM
thank you for your drawing jesus ..

it is correct ...

cap does not matter nor does the out put ... ;D

ist!

it will be more than you applied even in 1 pulse ..

please try it

this is ottos work i just added a few things and yea!

nuttin new .. well maybe jims work ;D ;D ;D ;D
...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on July 31, 2009, 03:42:54 PM

@all

My flyback composition can light 2 neon bulbs in series with a 1.5v.
Here is the photo of the breadboard melted by the flyback at 6v.
I am waiting for electronic parts to proceed with a joule thief Tesla coil.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 31, 2009, 03:59:49 PM

@ist just loves to talk in riddles.

you have 20 times the electronics skills i have

and btw

nutting maters

take a peice of wire make engery flow THEN STOP THE FLOW DUH! NOW THIS IS ROCKET SCIENCE ....

EH ... OMG

I KNOW JUST HOW TESLA FELT

SHEESH IS THE ENTIRE WORLD THIS LIKE THIS ....

JESUS WHY DOES YOUR TESLA COIL THING WORK ... OR RIGHT CUZ YOU STOPPED THE FLOW :P

HUMMMMMMM

A SAD WORLD INDEED.....

IST

A STUPID SIMPLE TEST .... PULSE A WIRE ... TURN ON AN AMP ... TURN OFF THE AMP HEAR THE AMP COME ON HEAR THE BIG BOOOOOOOF WHEN IT GOES OFF .... MY MY MY

IST STANDS BACK AND SHAKES HIS HEAD .....

IN 883 PAGES IN THIS THRED JESUS DID YOU LEARN ANYTHING ?

IF YOU DID TELL MY WHY A JT WORKS .... NEVER MIND I ALREADY TOLD YOU B4 .. THIS THRED CAME ABOUT!! ;) :D ;D

YEP THE SAME OLD SH!T

NUTTING NEW UNDER THE SUN ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 31, 2009, 04:02:36 PM

@ nievesoliveras

Quote from: nievesoliveras on July 31, 2009, 03:42:54 PM
My flyback composition can light 2 neon bulbs in series with a 1.5v.
Here is the photo of the breadboard melted by the flyback at 6v.

I suspect that by not using a toroid for your coil you will be getting better efficiency since the ferrite is lossy. It will be interesting to see if that is true.

It looks like there are a lot of parts on your breadboard. Can you post a circuit diagram?

How do you plan to make the spark gap for the Tesla coil?

EDIT: A battery powered Tesla coil would be vey cool.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 31, 2009, 04:27:45 PM

Quote from: maw2432 on July 31, 2009, 02:48:05 PM
Jeanna,

Sorry, I have no idea about winding coils with respect to left-hand vs. right-hand rule.

My quick scan of the info did not make it clear to me.

Bill

Oh darn, but thank you.

I know you are a good explainer, but it seems all the people who say they understand this kind of thing do not explain it in a way I can understand it.

I doubt if it is really so complicated.
true systems in nature are always simple.
But minds cluttered with complications may not see them.
I guess that is possible here.

Thank you for bringing it up.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 31, 2009, 05:03:01 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 31, 2009, 04:02:36 PM
@ nievesoliveras

I suspect that by not using a toroid for your coil you will be getting better efficiency since the ferrite is lossy. It will be interesting to see if that is true.

It looks like there are a lot of parts on your breadboard. Can you post a circuit diagram?

How do you plan to make the spark gap for the Tesla coil?

EDIT: A battery powered Tesla coil would be vey cool.

Xee2:

Check out Yucca's latest device over on the Tariel Kapanadze topic. He has a battery powered, very low mA draw spark gap that is almost 2" long!!! He posted a link to his video over there. I can pm you with it if you want. I am just trying to stay on topic here as I am the one that seems to go off it most of the time, ha ha.
Check it out I really think you will enjoy it.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: maw2432 on July 31, 2009, 05:21:30 PM

Quote from: electricme on July 31, 2009, 12:22:04 AM
@All,

ITS ALL IN THE INSULATION, INSULATION IS THE KEY

ALL THE CELLS ARE VERY CLOSE TO EACH OTHER IN THE SAME AREA OF GROUND
THEY ARE SMALL CELLS NOT LONG AT ALL, JUST SHORT TUBES WITH ZINC N 4 INCH NAILS POKEING IN THE MIDDLE OF EACH CELL

THE OUTSIDE OF THE CELL IS COPPER PIPE IT IS POSITAVE

THE ZINC ROD IN THE MIDDLE BECOMES THE NEGATIVE OUTPUT

WIND INSULATION AROUND THE OUTSIDE OF THE COPPER PIPE

RAM IT IN THE GROUND

FILL THE CENTER OF THE PIPE WITH DIRT

THEN WATER IT TO BED IN ALL CONTACT WITH THE EARTH.

THATS IT

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

This means I Have SUCCEEDED in making a higher voltage out of a Series Connected Earth Cell Battery System.

I am excited, wooooooooah Whackooooo Yippeeeeeee

THE IMPOSSIBLE IS DONE WAKEUP FOLKS STOP SLEEPING IN THE BEDS

GETUP TAKE A LOOK YAHHHHHHHHOOOOOOOO I'm giddy with successss

Photos dont lye Proof proof proof

Arrrrrrh time for a cuppa Teeeeee

COMON WAKEUP ALL, USE PEOPLE GET OUTA BED, THIS IS HOORAY CELEBRATION STUFF.

GOSH look at all this above stuff, looks like IST was ere lol

JIM

lol

Jim,

Why do you think the INSULATION IS THE KEY? Did you do a control experiment?
I just purchased some copper pipe and zinc screws to replicate your findings.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on July 31, 2009, 05:23:31 PM

Huge kudo's to Jim...that set up is a great example of lateral out of the box thinking.

Its all down hill skying from here gang...the barrier is now down.

And the rest of the j/t crew are to be commended for providing a fertile atmosphere here.

I may try a short cut modification of jim's concept this wknd, if time allows.

I'm proud to even be associated with you people.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 31, 2009, 06:08:57 PM

@ Pirate88179

Quote from: Pirate88179 on July 31, 2009, 05:03:01 PM
Check out Yucca's latest device over on the Tariel Kapanadze topic.

Thanks, I will.

EDIT: Great video. Thanks. The circuit he is using is the same as a Joule thief with a pickup coil and with an extra resistor added to lower the base voltage when using a high input voltage.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on July 31, 2009, 06:38:42 PM

Quote from: electricme on July 31, 2009, 04:22:48 AM
@All :D

I just went outside and rechecked my EER setup, it is still rolling along, voltage has dropped as expected, but it is still shuvving out 3 volts.
I think it is getting into settleing down mode, and if it makes it, the voltage should improve again shortly.

Anyway, it was time to see if I could get it to do something, and so I connected a LED to its output. ;D

Ha ha ha, it works, very nicely thank you all, he he the White LED light up nice and brightly. I got it propped up against the fence so I see if it gets dim or brighter. Going to keep my eye on it overnight. ;)

I got another LED and connected it in parallel, it lit up also, but they dimmed slightly, BUT it works, wow, connect a JT to this system and we are arrrrwayyyyyyy ;D ;D ;D ;D

jim

Jim

Great work on your EEG

If I understand right ....... insulating the outside of the pipes makes it possable to place them close together . .... Is that right ?

Is there any indication that you are getting more than galvanic effect ?

I was thinking that if it is just galvanic and the outsides are insulated .......I can''t think of any reason they would have to be out in the yard .
A big plastic box in the basement should work just as good .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on July 31, 2009, 06:55:38 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 31, 2009, 04:02:36 PM
@ nievesoliveras

I suspect that by not using a toroid for your coil you will be getting better efficiency since the ferrite is lossy. It will be interesting to see if that is true.

It looks like there are a lot of parts on your breadboard. Can you post a circuit diagram?

How do you plan to make the spark gap for the Tesla coil?

EDIT: A battery powered Tesla coil would be vey cool.

The toroid or JT is the flyback you are seeing on the photos. It is a 5 turns bifilar joule thief with a coil as a pickup.

I took off the board the transistors I was holding there so they do not get lost.

@all

I have been having bad luck lately, almost everything is getting damaged.
The last thing I lost was my iron solder.

But the thing is that we have to be positive, if we are given lemons, we make lemonade.

I recycled the iron solder handle into a beautiful tesla coil.
Keep the good work!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 31, 2009, 07:12:56 PM

PLEASE PASS THE LEMONS!

jesus that is a beautiful Tesla coil!
And on a cutting board, no less!

So, now we have a new Tesla pancake named "victor", and a new tesla coil named "lemonade"

Very nice.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 31, 2009, 07:28:12 PM

I agree with Jeanna, nice work and it looks great. ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 31, 2009, 07:33:18 PM

@all

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on July 31, 2009, 07:39:08 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 31, 2009, 07:12:56 PM
PLEASE PASS THE LEMONS!

jesus that is a beautiful Tesla coil!
And on a cutting board, no less!

So, now we have a new Tesla pancake named "victor", and a new tesla coil named "lemonade"

Very nice.

jeanna

It is still unfinished. It needs a spark gap, a capacitor of about 3kv. @hartiberlin recommended 500pf 3000v and I found and sent for 10 of them, a 470pf 3000v at futurlec.com.
Also I still do not understand well how to configure everything together.

Quote from: stprue on July 31, 2009, 07:28:12 PM
I agree with Jeanna, nice work and it looks great. ;)

By the way, looking at the third photo, it seems that is working with the reflection of the desk lamp.
If it were that bright when it work, it would be great, but I think that only will give a small line of blue electricity or high voltage.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 31, 2009, 07:39:42 PM

OK

So I posted this because I feel it may be important. I have 2 NEO's put together NSNS and then some 26mag wire bifiliar around it. I have it grounded with my power supply and + - to my power supply but the power was never turned on! It was left as is and then the pos/neg were pluged into the citcuit. It started to increase in volts even though it wasn't on....somehow through my power supply even though it was not on. Now I'm aware the power supply's are powerful inductors but this does not happen with a ferrite JT. I wanted to try NEOS because of that new thread with the mag power source. Anyways what do you guys make of it? I'm going to try to hook up a regular JT to it!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 31, 2009, 07:42:20 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on July 31, 2009, 07:39:08 PM
It is still unfinished. It needs a spark gap, a capacitor of about 3kv. @hartiberlin recommended 500pf 3000v and I found and sent for 10 of them, a 470pf 3000v at futurlec.com.
Also I still do not understand well how to configure everything together.

By the way, looking at the third photo, it seems that is working with the reflection of the desk lamp.
If it were that bright when it work, it would be great, but I think that only will give a small line of blue electricity or high voltage.

Jesus

No initially it is very bright but then the lux goes down as voltage drops.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on July 31, 2009, 07:45:54 PM

@stprue

Nice work with a ferrite bar. Or ist it an air coil?

Nice photos!

Jesus

Edit:
I read your post that came before mine, and it says that are 2 neos that interact with the power supply induction and produce voltage.

Thank you!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 31, 2009, 07:57:16 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on July 31, 2009, 07:45:54 PM
@stprue

Nice work with a ferrite bar. Or ist it an air coil?

Nice photos!

Jesus

Edit:
I read your post that came before mine, and it says that are 2 neos that interact with the power supply induction and produce voltage.

Thank you!

First try with the biggo JT didn't work but I will keep trying.

What do you think? Maybe a primative mag power supply. I posted because I think it could become much better then this tiny 2 minute test!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 31, 2009, 07:58:46 PM

nice work jesus

sorry i kinda jumped on ya bro ...

i do feel bad for it but not tooo bad ;)

your a creative person .... thats for sure

now the world has the lemonaide ....

what are they gonna do with it ...

tesla designed the tesla coil based on the kick and he tuned his coils by mass to get a large kick ....

it is aircore it inter acts with the enviroment and if there was a thunder storm it would interact aswell hummmmmm

the tesla coil turns on and off .... right ?

what you see out the top is in fact the off cycle ......

ist!

@st sounds like it saturated over time then released ... lol

kinda like a tpu winding up then pushing at whatever voltage/ amparage you desire ...

same way my pulse motro runns ... i input 12 yet i could charge at 200 if i so desire ... at a verrrrrry high rpm ...

considering 36v is fast i guestamate 4000 rpm ... more load faster the motor runs ... lol

so what will be if i put a load on it lol

will it accelerate to find its own ballance ..... hummmmm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 31, 2009, 08:46:07 PM

Quote from: Cap-Z-ro on July 31, 2009, 05:23:31 PM
Huge kudo's to Jim...that set up is a great example of lateral out of the box thinking.

Its all down hill skying from here gang...the barrier is now down.

And the rest of the j/t crew are to be commended for providing a fertile atmosphere here.

I may try a short cut modification of jim's concept this wknd, if time allows.

I'm proud to even be associated with you people.

Regards...

I agree 100% Cap. We are well on our way to 9,000 posts and everyone here has contributed a lot to the sum total of our knowledge and understanding. I too am proud to counted among these fine folks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on July 31, 2009, 08:48:57 PM

Quote from: stprue on July 31, 2009, 07:57:16 PM
First try with the biggo JT didn't work but I will keep trying.

What do you think? Maybe a primative mag power supply. I posted because I think it could become much better then this tiny 2 minute test!!!

What I think is that you should redo the test with that coil connected to the power supply but with the power supply disconnected from the wall. If it gives the same voltage reading then you need to take the fast course that @jeanna gives on how to improve the output of a joule thief.
She made mine to light 2 leds in series with the pickup coil, when before her explanation the pickup coil did not light one led.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on July 31, 2009, 08:52:10 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on July 31, 2009, 07:58:46 PM
nice work jesus

sorry i kinda jumped on ya bro ...

i do feel bad for it but not tooo bad ;)

your a creative person .... thats for sure

now the world has the lemonaide ....
..........
same way my pulse motro runns ... i input 12 yet i could charge at 200 if i so desire ... at a verrrrrry high rpm ...

considering 36v is fast i guestamate 4000 rpm ... more load faster the motor runs ... lol

so what will be if i put a load on it lol

will it accelerate to find its own ballance ..... hummmmm

Good for you your motor adjusts to the load, that is great!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 31, 2009, 08:54:13 PM

@All

I just want to thank everyone for their kind words with my success yesterday, thank you all so very much, it makes a big difference after a long hard slog.

My only hope is that people wil replicate what I have done and pass what they learn along also.

Tp Bill, Jeanna, IST, Xee2 and MK1, and I see zpezpffan (a welcome to you also to the Joule Thief Topic) and anyone else, I may have missed, thank you for the PMs.
The LED went out sometime last night, it was still very bright when I went to bed in the early hours of the morning, I awoke about 8:30am sun shining and just checked.
The voltage was 2.6v then as I unhooked it, the voltage began to climb, so the EER is not broken.
I think this EER setup needs to bedin for a while, but I'm thinking of a more bigger system.

This one I made was just to prove the series connection of earth cells in series, I have successfully done this without any doubt, so its time to research this further, but over onto the EB Thread.

I have posted a heep of more stuff there, including some TWV and a How o Build Your Own EER.

I have 3 PMs to answer, so got to be off, but willl be back later to read from P882 - where ever the JT fred ends ;)

hooroo all

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 31, 2009, 08:59:48 PM

Quote from: stprue on July 31, 2009, 07:57:16 PM
First try with the biggo JT didn't work but I will keep trying.

What do you think? Maybe a primative mag power supply. I posted because I think it could become much better then this tiny 2 minute test!!!

OK I'm lost.

Please review what this is.
I get that the green inductor is what you talking about?
Is that wound around the magnets? (really one magnet, right?)
Your power supply is leaking somehow?

There is a patent by a guy named bryant where he wraps an iron magnet bar with a coil and aligns it to North-South. It is an earth battery. 1845 england or close to that.
...

Anyway, help me out, I would like some more annotation along with your pictures, please.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 31, 2009, 08:59:56 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on July 31, 2009, 08:48:57 PM
What I think is that you should redo the test with that coil connected to the power supply but with the power supply disconnected from the wall. If it gives the same voltage reading then you need to take the fast course that @jeanna gives on how to improve the output of a joule thief.
She made mine to light 2 leds in series with the pickup coil, when before her explanation the pickup coil did not light one led.

Jesus

I'm not convinced of anything because when I turn off the power supply the voltage increase stops and then slowly decreases. With a battery as the power source but still using the power source as a ground is doesn't have the same effect. When it is on it takes power from the power supply somehow. I need to try more stuff but it's interesting.... What I do know is the magnet in the video looks to be 1 because the nail used to show that it is a mag moves quickly from one side to the other.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 31, 2009, 09:05:32 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 31, 2009, 08:59:48 PM
OK I'm lost.

Please review what this is.
I get that the green inductor is what you talking about?
Is that wound around the magnets? (really one magnet, right?)
Your power supply is leaking somehow?

There is a patent by a guy named bryant where he wraps an iron magnet bar with a coil and aligns it to North-South. It is an earth battery. 1845 england or close to that.
...

Anyway, help me out, I would like some more annotation along with your pictures, please.

thank you,

jeanna

I think my power supply may be bleeding energy to the inductor (2 magnets/Neo's NSNS) green mag wire 26guage. I am tinkering with some ideas that I saw on that 3kw in a briefcase topic.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 31, 2009, 09:18:10 PM

@Jeanna

Here is a more interesting set up.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 31, 2009, 09:19:13 PM

No set voltage no set amp and only the negative input and ground are making this led light.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 31, 2009, 09:23:56 PM

When the power supply is off it will not work so the important question is what in the power supply is leaching out into thin circuit? Is it maybe a transformer like in the video??? If so maybe this is the right set!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 31, 2009, 09:24:17 PM

Hello maw2432,

Quote from: maw2432 on July 31, 2009, 05:21:30 PM

Jim,

Why do you think the INSULATION IS THE KEY? Did you do a control experiment?
I just purchased some copper pipe and zinc screws to replicate your findings.

Bill

To answer your question, Yes and No, because I have done 2 unusual things.

First, the successful series cells I posted yesterday is not mt my first successful attempt, but rather it is the second one.

About a week ago I got 2 aluminium pipes about 7 inches long and 1 inch wide and drove them in the ground. I measured for the voltage across them and it was about .6 as I recall as I did not write it dowm.

I removed the pipes, then wrapped insulation tape in the method I showed.
I then put them back in the ground, being careful not to damage the tape.
I did not measure between the pipes at this stage.

Next I got 2 seperate 1/2 inch copper pipes
I put dirt into the aluminium pipes
I the 2 seperate copper pipes inside each of the aluminium pipes.

I then measured each cell, they were very close to .75 volts DC

I then connected them in series and got 1.4volts

Now, this I had never been able to accumplish before.

BUT, in a Aluminium outer cell setup with a Copper inner electrode, the voltage is this,,,, Aluminium is the Negative and Copper is the POSITIVE

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you take a Copper Pipe and a ZINC nail to make a cell, the
POSITAVE is the COPPER pipe and the Negative is the ZINC electrode.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The POS and NEG switch around, being on the inner or the outer electrode depending on which material you select as your EER setup.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, one thing I did not realise until late last night, I had not lined my 2 EER setups up to North or South.

They are East to West alignment, now, this was a mistake on my part, but, BOTH different EER setups STILL WORK, my next setup I will put in a North to South configuration, then I willl see what occurs.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So to answer your question, Yes, the insulation is the key to making a series EER setup.

I will get the web address and post it here in a few minutes for those who come accross this site can duck over the the EE Battery site.

************************************************************************************

Here's the link http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7769.260

************************************************************************************

Thanks Bill M

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 31, 2009, 09:42:31 PM

@ Cap-Z-ro

Thank you Cap-i-tan, :D your are right, down hill all the way now, I can see this will open up big replications, if one wants 24v or 48v then all they need to do is add cells to the end.

You are only limited in voltage and Amps, by the size of the EER system.

Quote from: Cap-Z-ro on July 31, 2009, 05:23:31 PM
Huge kudo's to Jim...that set up is a great example of lateral out of the box thinking.

Its all down hill skying from here gang...the barrier is now down.

And the rest of the j/t crew are to be commended for providing a fertile atmosphere here.

I may try a short cut modification of jim's concept this wknd, if time allows.

I'm proud to even be associated with you people.

Regards...

PS I recommend you all start first with a small setup of everyday easy to get materials to understand the consept.
So if you need to modify it, you will know what to do with it.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 31, 2009, 09:44:52 PM

My power supply is bleading...it's AC voltage making the light turn on!!! When I move the - input to the JT to the output side it still works...ohhh well I think there is more to this anyway.

good night all

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: maw2432 on July 31, 2009, 10:26:34 PM

Quote from: electricme on July 31, 2009, 09:24:17 PM
Hello maw2432,

To answer your question, Yes and No, because I have done 2 unusual things.

First, the successful series cells I posted yesterday is not mt my first successful attempt, but rather it is the second one.

About a week ago I got 2 aluminium pipes about 7 inches long and 1 inch wide and drove them in the ground. I measured for the voltage across them and it was about .6 as I recall as I did not write it dowm.

I removed the pipes, then wrapped insulation tape in the method I showed.
I then put them back in the ground, being careful not to damage the tape.
I did not measure between the pipes at this stage.

Next I got 2 seperate 1/2 inch copper pipes
I put dirt into the aluminium pipes
I the 2 seperate copper pipes inside each of the aluminium pipes.

I then measured each cell, they were very close to .75 volts DC

I then connected them in series and got 1.4volts

Now, this I had never been able to accumplish before.

BUT, in a Aluminium outer cell setup with a Copper inner electrode, the voltage is this,,,, Aluminium is the Negative and Copper is the POSITIVE

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you take a Copper Pipe and a ZINC nail to make a cell, the
POSITAVE is the COPPER pipe and the Negative is the ZINC electrode.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The POS and NEG switch around, being on the inner or the outer electrode depending on which material you select as your EER setup.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, one thing I did not realise until late last night, I had not lined my 2 EER setups up to North or South.

They are East to West alignment, now, this was a mistake on my part, but, BOTH different EER setups STILL WORK, my next setup I will put in a North to South configuration, then I willl see what occurs.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So to answer your question, Yes, the insulation is the key to making a series EER setup.

I will get the web address and post it here in a few minutes for those who come accross this site can duck over the the EE Battery site.

************************************************************************************

Here's the link http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7769.260

************************************************************************************

Thanks Bill M

jim

Jim, thank you for your detailed reply.

I found some 3 inch zinc machine screws with nuts included for under 2 dollars. I think the zinc screws will be easer to attach wires to (without clips) using the nuts. Plus there should be a greater surface area with the screw vs. a nail. I hope this makes a positive difference. My copper pipes are 6 inches long. Cool thing is that I do not have to now remove the darn sticker lables since I need to insulate the outside. Please tell me about the bottom of the pipe... do you insulate it totally by covering the bottom?

I hope to do testing tomorrow.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on July 31, 2009, 10:31:16 PM

Quote from: stprue on July 31, 2009, 09:44:52 PM
My power supply is bleading...it's AC voltage making the light turn on!!! When I move the - input to the JT to the output side it still works...ohhh well I think there is more to this anyway.

good night all

there is more to it ....

;D

i had my cap charger running this way quite some time ago .... but i was useing my neozap switch wich was induceing engery to the coil and i had cap recovery and self dumpping gain with each pulse ... it was damm kool as i could see when the cap released with a big bang ... and it only did it when it was full .... lol

but it was the earth ground ... from my chaser that caused it as i unhooked it from the earth ground it stopped self running but of course it still ran with gain ... cuz the cap ... i never even used a diode..... hummmmmm ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 31, 2009, 10:50:42 PM

@ stprue

Quote from: stprue on July 31, 2009, 07:39:42 PM
It started to increase in volts even though it wasn't on

How many volts and where were they being measured. My voltmeter reads several millivolts due to the electric fields in the house. A diagram would be helpful.

EDIT: Oh, I see you found out it was from power supply.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 31, 2009, 11:31:07 PM

@ALL

This is a really interesting video with a big toroid wired in 3 phases ...
it would be really nice on a jt scale.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STnsB5DE9pk&feature=channel

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 31, 2009, 11:33:45 PM

@all

Some one said right and left hand rules ...

There you go ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihQlyy0B2O0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eK1Ar5WPJj8&feature=channel_page

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tagor on August 01, 2009, 01:55:40 AM

Quote from: maw2432 on July 31, 2009, 02:48:05 PM
The quote from Dr. Schwartz refers to this guy Lawrence Rayburn which I could only find a small amount of info on at this link. (just a contributor to the circut) (edit)

Bill

here is reference :
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=4570.msg150838#msg150838

and Lawrence Rayburn forum is here

--- In OneSmallStepForMan@yahoogroups.com, "Lawrence Rayburn"

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/OneSmallStepForMan/

to get all information on his TREC
=> Subscribe: OneSmallStepForMan-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on August 01, 2009, 03:20:53 AM

@Ressonanceman,

Quote from: resonanceman on July 31, 2009, 06:38:42 PM
Jim

Great work on your EEG

If I understand right ....... insulating the outside of the pipes makes it possable to place them close together . .... Is that right ?

Is there any indication that you are getting more than galvanic effect ?

I was thinking that if it is just galvanic and the outsides are insulated .......I can''t think of any reason they would have to be out in the yard .
A big plastic box in the basement should work just as good .

gary

Hello Gary, I think as you said, the insulation is the key to its secret why it works, I can see no other obvious reason, none whatsoever, this is my second success with a series earth cell setup, the other one I made just two days before, and it had an aluminium tube with a inner copper pipe.
Positave was the center electrode.

But, the positive is the outer electrode, if the outer pipe is copper.
So copper seems to hogg to the positave side of things, lol

When I saw the combination of volts, then I knew I was on a winner.

When I made the small video showing the voltage riseing, just as you see it, this was the very first time I actually saw this myself too, soo you have all been able to view my success as I had this success.

You could be right there, but I don't have a cellar, so I carn't check this out, one of the chapps replicating this might have one and be able to do this and throw some light on it.

Thanks Gary for the kind words.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on August 01, 2009, 04:02:04 AM

@ Maw2432

I can see you are pritty keen, lol, OK well I had to think of a way to end the tape at the bottom of the tube, I don't like fiddling around too much, its a pain, so the easiest way was to just tear off the insulation tape and tuck it under the pipe.
If you seal up the pipe, when the water/ rain dropps in, if the bottom is sealed, then you will just have sloppy mud. Well try it if you want to, I really don't know what will happen.

jim

I want to make a suggestion to anyone who wants to ask me a question about this EER battery system,
It's not really a JT topic, so if everyone could ask over on the forum here

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7769.270

it would make the JT topic flow more smoother, although I don't mind answering the questions, I just don't want to distrupt the JT topic.

To the JT members, you have been really patient, thank you all.

Quote from: maw2432 on July 31, 2009, 10:26:34 PM
Jim, thank you for your detailed reply.

I found some 3 inch zinc machine screws with nuts included for under 2 dollars. I think the zinc screws will be easer to attach wires to (without clips) using the nuts. Plus there should be a greater surface area with the screw vs. a nail. I hope this makes a positive difference. My copper pipes are 6 inches long. Cool thing is that I do not have to now remove the darn sticker lables since I need to insulate the outside. Please tell me about the bottom of the pipe... do you insulate it totally by covering the bottom?

I hope to do testing tomorrow.

Bill

Thanks Bill, I'm sure you will be just as surprised as I was.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 01, 2009, 04:21:22 AM

since were off topic .. lol

ill drop this here too

i did this last winter ... ;D

im going through my videos ... i will make some videos of proof ok

lol

even the fet lighting a light bulb

the fact is i can tune to any coil really the coil is only part of it ... but a properly built one will yeild huge results ...

this is a basic neo zap lighting a 60 watt light bulb no caps no diodes nuttin

lol

;)

william

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ri_HbDCwf_E

oooo yea YOUR RIGHT AT HOME WHO WANTS CANDY.... LOL

BTW I STILL SEE A HUGE BALL OF ELECTRICTY ... I COULD TAP AND WHO KNOWS HOW MANY BULBS I CAN LIGHT FROM THIS SET UP I ONLY EVER TESTED THE ONE ... AT 1 TIME .. I KNOW I CAN LIGHT MANY MORE AND GRAB A FEED BACK AND MAKE IT SELF RUN ... BUT Y?

THE REST OF THE WORLD MUST DO SOMETHING ...

;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 01, 2009, 11:12:49 AM

Ist,
Please explain what a neo zap is?
You have mentioned this before, but other than something that involves a permanent magnet, maybe even one wound with a coil, I have no idea what a neo zap could be.

Worse,

I have no idea where to find information on a neo zap.

If it is off the joule thief subject please direct me to the thread where I can find out what this is that you imply can light many filament bulbs.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 01, 2009, 12:22:55 PM

indeed jeanna ...

neo zap is the kick amped ...

i have a thred on ou ... about neo zap

and ac .. did a video showing his replication of my neo zap

it is a MOT and some neos and a laptop power supply

if i rectified it with a high freq bridge yikes and DO NOT TOUCH IT ...

THIS IS YOUR WARNING ... IT CAN BITE MUCH HARDER THAN MY BARK!!!!!

YES IT WILL LITE A FEW BULBS... OR RUN ANOTHER MOT IN MY CASCADE AMP ... ;D 8)

IT IS AND CAN BE MODDED TO A QUENCHED MAGIC SPARK GAP ...

IMAGINE I USED IT AS A CHARGER ... ;D JUST LIKE A JT .... JUST 10 000 TIMES BIGGER ...

AC DID IT WITH 24VDC 1 AMP MESURED ... LOL LOL

I USED 19VDC 4 AMP IN THIS UNIT ... SURE I HAVE A MILLION IMPROVEMENTS TO IT TOOO ..

BUT BASIC TO START WITH .. FOR NOW

THINKING ABOUT MY DOOR BELL WHEN YOU GONNA RINGGGGGG IT ?!?!?!?!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bf1ZmTxXTEw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIf3a72f4lo

ALL CANADIANS REPLICATION OF MY NEO ZAP ;D 8)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZKdBryZPZ4

PEACE

AND HERE IS THE NEOZAP THRED ...

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6309.0

I ORIGINALLY DISCOVERED THIS QUITE SOME TIME AGO ...

AND YES I HAVE PICTURES ONLINE HERE AT OU SHOWING HOW TO HOOK IT UP RECTIFIED INTO A CAP ... BEWARE ... THE CAP CHARGES EXTREAMLLY FAST....

BE CARFUL SO YOU DO NOT BLOW UP THE CAPS ...

BUT A FLASH LIGHT DEAL ... IS WHAT IM OFFERED ... KEEP IT I DO NOT WANT IT ... AND NO YOU THAT OFFER THIS FLASH LIGHT DEAL WILL MAKE NO MONEY OR PROFITS FROM MY HARD WORK ...

AND YET YOU ALL WONDER WHY I LAUGH SO MUCH ... AND USE SMILES AND WINKIES ...

HAHAHAHA

CUZ I DID MUCH OF THIS SO LONG AGO ... ;)

DUH! LOL

BTW I WILL STAY POOR AND LIVE IN A TENT B4 I WILL EVER BOW TO YOUR USELESS PENNIES ... SIR .. :P

YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE THE ENTIRE REASON I STOPED SELLING MY RINGS ONLINE ... SO I DID NOT HAVE TO TEACH LAZZY OLD MEN HOW MY SHIT WORKS ... :o

BAH ENGERY PROBLEMS IS BULL SHIT!

AS ARE NUKE POWER PLANTS ... BUT WHAT EVER ..

LOL

NOW WHAT WILL MY PUBLIC EXPOSED HARMONIC BANGER DO TO MY NEO ZAP :D :D :D :D

L8R ALL ITS A GOOD DAY FOR A WHITE WEDDING ....

IST!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on August 01, 2009, 08:04:40 PM

@IST!

It is a good day for a white wedding. I somehow totally understand you now. Scary..

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on August 01, 2009, 08:27:51 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on July 31, 2009, 10:31:16 PM
there is more to it ....

;D

i had my cap charger running this way quite some time ago .... but i was useing my neozap switch wich was induceing engery to the coil and i had cap recovery and self dumpping gain with each pulse ... it was damm kool as i could see when the cap released with a big bang ... and it only did it when it was full .... lol

but it was the earth ground ... from my chaser that caused it as i unhooked it from the earth ground it stopped self running but of course it still ran with gain ... cuz the cap ... i never even used a diode..... hummmmmm ;)

This could be the same case for me but I'm not sure...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on August 01, 2009, 08:30:01 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 31, 2009, 10:50:42 PM
@ stprue

How many volts and where were they being measured. My voltmeter reads several millivolts due to the electric fields in the house. A diagram would be helpful.

EDIT: Oh, I see you found out it was from power supply.

It was like 16 point something volts... after messing with it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on August 02, 2009, 08:33:13 AM

@stprue

If you can, do this test:
1. Unplug the power supply from the wall
2. Connect a jumper from the power supply plug ground to the wall receptacle ground.
3. Connect your circuit to the power supply as usual.
4. Check with voltmeter.

Good luck! This is important for all of us. If you succeed, we succeed.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on August 02, 2009, 09:49:44 AM

@all

I tried to build a joule thief with the tesla coil I built from an iron solder handle and the voltage produced by my joule thief circuit is not enough to make the tesla coil to oscillate.

The circuit configuration is included in case someone has a better circuit or better electronic skills to make it work.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 02, 2009, 11:17:25 AM

great work jesus ...

i just love your battery holder ....

we can make it sing .... but we need to fully understand what happins when trist throws the switch ....

lol

;)

ist!

your cap seams quite large ... i think you need a good spark to get it to fly ... or a high voltage cap that fills darn fast ...

but then agin when we look at neo zap i have a darn nice spark gap going on low voltage ... :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 02, 2009, 01:45:57 PM

@ nievesoliveras

Quote from: nievesoliveras on August 02, 2009, 09:49:44 AM
I tried to build a joule thief with the tesla coil I built from an iron solder handle and the voltage produced by my joule thief circuit is not enough to make the tesla coil to oscillate.

Do not give up yet. I think your circuit can be improved. You do not have a typical JT circuit.
1. the base coil should be the small number of turns
2. reverse diode and put from collector to emitter

EDIT: like following diagram but without pickup coil and battery capacitor

EDIT 2: try reversing leads on base coil if circuit does not work

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on August 02, 2009, 05:24:06 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on August 02, 2009, 11:17:25 AM
great work jesus ...

i just love your battery holder ....

we can make it sing .... but we need to fully understand what happins when trist throws the switch ....

lol

;)

ist!

your cap seams quite large ... i think you need a good spark to get it to fly ... or a high voltage cap that fills darn fast ...

but then agin when we look at neo zap i have a darn nice spark gap going on low voltage ... :)

I am waiting for the caps and the transistors that are specifically for high voltage, also the resistors. The resistors are 5w.

I know that your neo zap is the best that there is on this forum, but humbly I tell you that you are not a good teacher. You have no patience to teach.

Thanks for the battery holder praise.

Quote from: xee2 on August 02, 2009, 01:45:57 PM
@ nievesoliveras

Do not give up yet. I think your circuit can be improved. You do not have a typical JT circuit.
1. the base coil should be the small number of turns
2. reverse diode and put from collector to emitter

EDIT: like following diagram but without pickup coil and battery capacitor

EDIT 2: try reversing leads on base coil if circuit does not work

My bad! I flipped the transistor horizontaly but let the Led diode on the other side.

I tried switching the wires as you say but it needs a big spark to work.

I will read a pdf I stored about doing a simple high voltage device and see what happen.

Jesus

Edit:

I repaired the schematic as you recommended.
Thanks!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on August 02, 2009, 05:41:41 PM

@all

Now here is 5:33pm.
In the morning I did some experiments with my new flyback configuration and without the tesla coi and I got to light a cfl with the circuit.
The only problem is that it does not light the whole room and that the input voltage was 9volts. I had to turn it off quickly after the photos because the transistor gets almost red hot.

When the right transistor arrive I will try again and with less voltage.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 02, 2009, 05:53:43 PM

@ nievesoliveras

I do not think your Tesla JT circuit is correct yet. It may work if it is hooked up per diagram I posted.

Congratulations on the CLF. It looks very bright to me. They will not be as bright as when powered from wall since they are not getting as many watts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 02, 2009, 06:01:18 PM

Jesus:

Nice work! I agree with Xee2 that it looks very bright to me. Also, I noticed you still have your 2 neons in the circuit at the same time. They take volts and some power to light so maybe you are robbing yourself of this circuit's true output potential. (No pun intended) Just a thought. I know they are used in my Bedini circuit to protect the transistor but they only light when I have no out put hooked to the circuit, not when operating it normally.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on August 02, 2009, 06:15:21 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on August 02, 2009, 05:41:41 PM
@all

Now here is 5:33pm.
In the morning I did some experiments with my new flyback configuration and without the tesla coi and I got to light a cfl with the circuit.
The only problem is that it does not light the whole room and that the input voltage was 9volts. I had to turn it off quickly after the photos because the transistor gets almost red hot.

When the right transistor arrive I will try again and with less voltage.

Jesus

Jesus

Just a thought about the Tesla coil JT

A Tesla coil has to be loosly coupled so that the secondary can run at high frequency .
I think your Tesla coil JT would run if you moved the base coil closer .......and maybe tightened it up a little .
A JT needs to be tightly coupled because it is low power .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 02, 2009, 06:58:20 PM

Very nice jesus,

Lighting the cfl is no mean feat, even with 9 volts.
Does that mean you were not able to get the circuit to run with less?

The heat is a problem, though.
To me, at least, the heat means there is something wrong.

There might be a short somewhere not allowing the transistor to turn off. (as Bill suggests, perhaps it is the neons.)
I wonder if they are bleeding off the back spike that turns the transistor off.
There could be a base resistor adjustment that is needed with the 9 volts.

Does 1.2 volts battery heat up the transistor also?
...Just some thoughts,

Anyway, congratulations on the cfl, with 2 neons!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 02, 2009, 07:50:15 PM

i do agree jesus great work ...

about the im no good at teaching ... i so know this too well ...

thats why im happy for this site to make it a easer job as a team ...

cuz none of this came easy .. but i was driven by something i can not explain ......

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on August 02, 2009, 09:07:02 PM

Just a thought...would running the transistor parallel with the line lessen the heating problem ?

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on August 02, 2009, 10:06:55 PM

Quote from: xee2 on August 02, 2009, 05:53:43 PM
@ nievesoliveras

I do not think your Tesla JT circuit is correct yet. It may work if it is hooked up per diagram I posted.

Congratulations on the CLF. It looks very bright to me. They will not be as bright as when powered from wall since they are not getting as many watts.

I made some experiments with different transistors and resistors and it works for a fraction of a second always when I disconnect the base resistor an connect it back again and this without any resistors.

With it works for a fraction of a second I mean the led flash when the base cable is disconnected suddenly. It does not matter with which transistor.

Quote from: Pirate88179 on August 02, 2009, 06:01:18 PM
Jesus:

Nice work! I agree with Xee2 that it looks very bright to me. Also, I noticed you still have your 2 neons in the circuit at the same time. They take volts and some power to light so maybe you are robbing yourself of this circuit's true output potential. (No pun intended) Just a thought. I know they are used in my Bedini circuit to protect the transistor but they only light when I have no out put hooked to the circuit, not when operating it normally.

Bill

The 2 neon bulbs are not taking any voltage from the circuit because they are working each with only one leg connected to the joule thief flyback pickup coil.

Maybe you both are right though.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on August 02, 2009, 10:07:10 PM

@Jesus,
Congratulations lighting that CFL, nice. ;)

With the tesla coil, transistor getting too hot, try connecting a 1ohm 5Watt ceramic resistor in series with the collector, transistor should now run cooler.

@IST I saw you 6 minute Youtube on your Neo Zap, nice white glows there :D

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on August 02, 2009, 10:18:32 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on August 02, 2009, 06:15:21 PM
Jesus

Just a thought about the Tesla coil JT

A Tesla coil has to be loosly coupled so that the secondary can run at high frequency .
I think your Tesla coil JT would run if you moved the base coil closer .......and maybe tightened it up a little .
A JT needs to be tightly coupled because it is low power .

gary

I think that you are right. I thought that maybe adding a ferrite core it will work. It only flashes the led when I disconnect the base wire suddenly.

Quote from: jeanna on August 02, 2009, 06:58:20 PM
Very nice jesus,

Lighting the cfl is no mean feat, even with 9 volts.
Does that mean you were not able to get the circuit to run with less?

The heat is a problem, though.
To me, at least, the heat means there is something wrong.

There might be a short somewhere not allowing the transistor to turn off. (as Bill suggests, perhaps it is the neons.)
I wonder if they are bleeding off the back spike that turns the transistor off.
There could be a base resistor adjustment that is needed with the 9 volts.

Does 1.2 volts battery heat up the transistor also?
...Just some thoughts,

Anyway, congratulations on the cfl, with 2 neons!

jeanna

It works from 4.5 volts to 12 volts, but at 12 volts the heat is too much.
With the 1.2volt the transistor is not hot.

Quote from: innovation_station on August 02, 2009, 07:50:15 PM
i do agree jesus great work ...

about the im no good at teaching ... i so know this too well ...

thats why im happy for this site to make it a easer job as a team ...

cuz none of this came easy .. but i was driven by something i can not explain ......

ist!

Thank you @ist !

Quote from: Cap-Z-ro on August 02, 2009, 09:07:02 PM
Just a thought...would running the transistor parallel with the line lessen the heating problem ?

Regards...

Pardon my ignorance but I dont know how to run the transistor parallel with the line.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on August 02, 2009, 10:26:08 PM

Quote from: electricme on August 02, 2009, 10:07:10 PM
@Jesus,
Congratulations lighting that CFL, nice. ;)

With the tesla coil, transistor getting too hot, try connecting a 1ohm 5Watt ceramic resistor in series with the collector, transistor should now run cooler.

@IST I saw you 6 minute Youtube on your Neo Zap, nice white glows there :D

jim

It is a pity that I sent for 5w resistors but I did not know about the 1ohm resistor, if I knew before I would have sent for at least 4 of those resistances.

Lets see what I can do with what I got now.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on August 02, 2009, 10:37:24 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on August 02, 2009, 10:18:32 PM
I think that you are right. I thought that maybe adding a ferrite core it will work. It only flashes the led when I disconnect the base wire suddenly.

Jesus

From my experience if tapping on a connection with the wire that goes there makes the LED flash you are close . It is working , it just won't keep working on its own
'

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: infringer on August 02, 2009, 10:52:25 PM

Thought I would share this from keelynet sorry if it is a double post.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtgyyNk5GEQ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dllabarre on August 03, 2009, 12:15:39 AM

Quote from: xee2 on July 28, 2009, 01:04:33 AM
@ dllabarre

Thanks for the report. I think your results are better than most because you are using more turns for your coils than most people do. That should give you more output voltage. To check your output voltage remove the LEDs and put a diode on the collector with the non-stripe end to the collector and then put a capacitor from the striped end of the diode to the emitter. Then measure the DC voltage across the capacitor. I suspect you are getting about 30 volts. That should light a lot of LEDs.

yup - I got 29.5 volts across the capacitor

DonL

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dllabarre on August 03, 2009, 12:24:40 AM

Quote from: resonanceman on July 28, 2009, 12:56:42 AM
Don
Sounds good
You might be able to get the current a little lower if add a cap across the pot to make a tank
The tank resonates ......the output goes up and the current draw goes down

gary

with a 10uF 16v capacitor across the POT my amps drop from 748mA to 110mA.

DonL

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on August 03, 2009, 12:51:36 AM

@ Jesus,

Quote from: nievesoliveras on August 02, 2009, 10:26:08 PM
It is a pity that I sent for 5w resistors but I did not know about the 1ohm resistor, if I knew before I would have sent for at least 4 of those resistances.

Lets see what I can do with what I got now.

Jesus

OK, try a 12v tail light, globe, they are designed to work better than a 5watt resistor, and can handle the heat very well ;).

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on August 03, 2009, 09:58:05 AM

Quote from: electricme on August 03, 2009, 12:51:36 AM
@ Jesus,OK, try a 12v tail light, globe, they are designed to work better than a 5watt resistor, and can handle the heat very well ;).

jim

Thank you @electricme ! I will try that or a 12v led I have available.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on August 03, 2009, 10:00:16 AM

@all

I made it work. The first tesla coil joule thief!!!!

It only works if the winding direction is opposite to the secondary's winding direction.
Also just if the secondary winding is at the collector and the primary at the base.
That was like @jeanna and @xee2 way of doing it.

But there is still another detail, it only lights the led if there is a small switching diode with the cathode to the transistor's base.

In this case if I put any other diode at the base it wont light the led.

After taking some photos I disconnected the battery for a few seconds and took another shot with the battery recovered and the led was brighter.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on August 03, 2009, 11:30:26 AM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on August 02, 2009, 08:33:13 AM
@stprue

If you can, do this test:
1. Unplug the power supply from the wall
2. Connect a jumper from the power supply plug ground to the wall receptacle ground.
3. Connect your circuit to the power supply as usual.
4. Check with voltmeter.

Good luck! This is important for all of us. If you succeed, we succeed.

Jesus

Maybe I won't give up on it yet, but when I turn the power supply off....no more voltage.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 03, 2009, 01:16:08 PM

Jesus:

Way to go man!! Very nice work. I am glad you stuck with it...see...your persistence paid off. That is a very nice looking Tesla coil and now, it is lighting an led.

Excellent!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on August 03, 2009, 01:18:55 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on July 29, 2009, 09:44:59 PM
@ All:

Slightly off-topic but maybe not really since we are all interested in energy. I just got my electric bill for the month of July here in Kentucky and it was $31.00. Now, this includes taxes, both state and local, AND a mandatory $5.00 recycling fee charge. I think that is pretty good! I did the same energy management type stuff at my other house and after 6 months, the electric company came out and replaced my meter. When I asked why they were doing that, they said it was because the last folks that owned it had electric bills/power usage 250% over mine so the meter must be defective. Funny thing, my bills stayed at the same low levels.

When I moved in here 7 years ago, (small apartment) I got an electric power usage history from the company that showed the bills averaged $80/month year round. That was long before the recycling fee and at least 4 tax increases. My goal is to have them come out here and replace my meter once again. When you light your home with leds from dead batteries, it uses less power, ha ha.

Just wanted to share this with you folks.

Bill

Unreal bill Bill :) NC Charges 45 dollars just to keep the service on with no Electrical Draw . Mine was 240.00 for July . I have powersaver installed also and half of My house Circuit is Solar . Without all that My bill would be about $400.00 plus so I'm saving almost 50 percent with the energy Devices . .. Most of it Air Conditioner cause the temp haven't got below 95 in the shade . most of the time its 98 -99 f outside and about 78 inside . I want to make Cold from Heat . One of My Projects on the list and i have the Plans on My Plans Disk for an Ammonia freezer using the Sun . I also have 4 Solar Heating panels for the Winter i haven't hooked up yet . they are nice . i can fill them with water and get Steam in a minute . But anyways that is one low light bill . unheard of . I hope to install My 40 foot tower with My Wind generator before the Years out . the hole is dug just need a few tons of Concrete to fill it . once that happens I'll have 80 amps at 24- 48 volts to power 12 volt water Heater Elements and Inverters running from 1100 pound Fork lift battery // I could do better . lowest bill was before the heat cam 61 dollars in march .
BTW Great Work people on Eb electricme . Series is a first in the dirt !! Good job . And also the other Friends here are hammering out great stuff never before done . Wonderful !keep it up and soon you will Discover what i did and beyond . there is still the Current amps we need to increase . your on the right track with Hv the next step is then to reduce that voltage down and the current should be very high .
Sorry i haven't much to contribute lately . So many things happening (all good) that i have little time for the internet this summer . I have accomplished a lot and when i get the time i want to share My finding . Number one HHO from Joule thief's heavy output . Ou Bedini made simple with standard parts as well 5 circuits to make a selfrunning Jt / battery charger . Its can be done . just get the mill amp draw to the minimum .
I get Lost in all My Discoverys if i try . Theres nothing like having an Ou device in your home to show off even it does nothing but produce light and motion on a small scale . I dont have the watts for the Ou prize i want but i'm working on it .

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on August 03, 2009, 03:01:54 PM

I just thought I would post some stuff about my latest non toroid JT

It is made from a transformer I found in an old monitor .
I have no idea what this transformer is designed to do .

The picture is of the bottom of the transfomer.
I drew lines between the pins that conduct

The high voltage is a around 260V It lights up my 90 LED array bright enough that it makes me worry about it burning out in a few minutes . It also sings . With normal wall power the array is silent . it sings pretty loud with this transformer ......even at less than max intensity .
It also seems to interfere with my wireless mouse a little .

The feedback charges a bridge /Cap to 26 V
Iff hooked directly to my Jesus charger the LED array almost goes out .
Placing a cap in series with the the Jesus charger limits the current for feedback
I have not found the exact cap yet . 1uF is not quite enoiugh 2uF draws to much .
I am pretty sure that with the right cap this thing should self charge .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 03, 2009, 03:34:07 PM

i have another video im gonna edit ... this will demo a darn kool effect you all will find intresting...

i used a coil pictured on ou here in the video ... if i remeber correctly sparks rymed out the idea .. im not sure yet ... tho

fact is it dont matter ..well worth what you willl learn if we can apply it .... it would be great!!

i used a freq genny on the coil to 180khz... and then i touched the one lead then touched the other .. out put grew a lot ...

;D

ist!

HERE IS THE VIDEO I MADE ... ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYNEn8llXeU

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 03, 2009, 04:07:05 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on August 03, 2009, 03:01:54 PM

I have not found the exact cap yet . 1uF is not quite enoiugh 2uF draws to much .
I am pretty sure that with the right cap this thing should self charge .

gary

I bet you're right.
The right cap. I need to go to RS and pick up their mixed cap set. I always thought they were too small value, but for what I was doing yesterday the 100pF did the job. Next will be some supers. I have the slow super caps but I want to try some fast big caps, like 1 or 2 uF or mF or even F. Whatever it takes, I am going there.
How do you raise 30mV which fluctuates at 2.2Mhz to something useful. Something that will run gadgetmall's air conditioner?
A tank running off these fluctuations with inductors in stages, maybe.

hmm

But I digress,

What is the B+ in your drawing? Base with resistor attached?

@Gadgetmall,
Dig a hole 4' x 4' for a water tank and cover it.
Slip into it a roll of hose or main-waterline- tubing. Run the tubing from one side of the window through the water to the other side of the window. Blow a fan into a funnel so it forces the air in or maybe suck the air through. It will be very much cooled as it passes through the cold water in the tank and cool off your room for the cost of materials and running the fan.

Can you point me to any places better than/ or in addition to Barrys coilgun site or crystal radio (which is sometimes off) to get instructions on how to use inductors and to match them with capacitors?

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on August 03, 2009, 07:56:01 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on August 03, 2009, 01:16:08 PM
Jesus:

Way to go man!! Very nice work. I am glad you stuck with it...see...your persistence paid off. That is a very nice looking Tesla coil and now, it is lighting an led.

Excellent!

Bill

Thank you @pirate !

Quote from: resonanceman on August 03, 2009, 03:01:54 PM
... my latest non toroid JT
It is made from a transformer I found in an old monitor .
...
I drew lines between the pins that conduct

The high voltage is a around 260V It lights up my 90 LED array
....
The feedback charges a bridge /Cap to 26 V
Iff hooked directly to my Jesus charger the LED array almost goes out .
Placing a cap in series with the the Jesus charger limits the current for feedback
I have not found the exact cap yet . 1uF is not quite enoiugh 2uF draws to much .
I am pretty sure that with the right cap this thing should self charge .

gary

there is a formula used to get the value you want. I dont have it now, I dont remember if it is parallel or in series.
The truth is that when you enter a value you want, the formula gives you almost the exact 2 capacitors values you must mix to get the value you wanted.
In that way you can use a value starting from 1.10uf for example and keep increasing the value till you get the 2 capacitors values that will make your jt selcharge.

@jeanna

The pvc battery holder is made with 2 neo ring magnets with wires red and black attached, then passed through a small hole on the pvc.
Put the battery inside with one holder terminal already in its place and then include the other, it will adhere to the battery and it wont loose contact if the neo ring is properly tied with the wire.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on August 03, 2009, 08:06:52 PM

Quote from: stprue on August 03, 2009, 11:30:26 AM
Maybe I won't give up on it yet, but when I turn the power supply off....no more voltage.

Yes! Do not despair. If you get tire, make a cup of coffe or a cold drink, take a walk and the idea will come to you.

It could take a while but the idea will come.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 03, 2009, 09:41:21 PM

I MADE A IST MK2 60 VIDEO ...

HOT! TRANSISTOR ... LOL

PRETTY KOOL WAVE FORMS .. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yk-hwnOmzn4

PEACE !

IST

BTW BOY O BOY .... COULD I SHARE A FEW THINGS... APERNTLY IM 14 AND HAVE NEVER BEEN B4.. HUMMMMM EVER HERD OF THE SUPERVISER... I HERE HE'S FAST!

IF YOU MAKE A PEACE SIGN WITH YOUR LEFT HAND THAT IS PEACE .. IF YOU MAKE ONE WITH YOUR RIGHT HAND THAT IS 2 SO NOW MAKE 1 OF EACH PUT THEM TOGATHER IM TOLD THAT IS 14..... ;D BTW WHAT YA GOT ... GO TRY IT ;)

THATS RIGHT A W AND IM TOLD THATS 14

THEASE ARE RIDDLES IM SOLVEING ... I GAVE MY CHILDREN THERE OWN STONE SETS NOW ... ;D

ALI DREW A NEW PICTURE FOR ME ... SOME THING BOUT EYE NOSE EYE ... AND THE SUPERVISIOR .. I ALREADY HAD 1 BUILT ... I SHOWED HER AND SHE HAD TO DRAW ME A PIC TELL ME MY AGE AND EXPLAIN THE SUPERVISER TO ME

OH I ALSO WAS TOLD TO CHECK OUT ROLLIAN SPIN ... ;D LOL AND I ASKED HER BOUT THIS BUMP ... ON MY LEFT HAND RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE I ASKED IS IT WHAT I THINK IT IS ... NO ANSWER THEN SHE HELD IT TO HER BIRTH MARK ON HER NECK AND SAYS SAME ...

SO WILD TO SAY THE LEAST ...

I FELT I MUST SHARE THIS .. BTW I NOW KNOW WHO SHE WAS IN HER PAST LIFE ... A SINGER THAT WAS CALLED SINGEEEE LOL AND HER NAME WAS THE SAME AS NOW ... WHAT A UNIVERSE WE LIVE IN ..... FUNNY THING WAS HER MOTHER PICKED HER NAME AND WHO SHE WAS NAMED AFTER AND GUESS WHAT SHE WAS ...

W

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on August 03, 2009, 09:44:55 PM

Quote from: jeanna on August 03, 2009, 04:07:05 PM
I bet you're right.
The right cap. I need to go to RS and pick up their mixed cap set. I always thought they were too small value, but for what I was doing yesterday the 100pF did the job. Next will be some supers. I have the slow super caps but I want to try some fast big caps, like 1 or 2 uF or mF or even F. Whatever it takes, I am going there.
How do you raise 30mV which fluctuates at 2.2Mhz to something useful. Something that will run gadgetmall's air conditioner?
A tank running off these fluctuations with inductors in stages, maybe.

hmm

But I digress,

What is the B+ in your drawing? Base with resistor attached?

@Gadgetmall,
Dig a hole 4' x 4' for a water tank and cover it.
Slip into it a roll of hose or main-waterline- tubing. Run the tubing from one side of the window through the water to the other side of the window. Blow a fan into a funnel so it forces the air in or maybe suck the air through. It will be very much cooled as it passes through the cold water in the tank and cool off your room for the cost of materials and running the fan.

Can you point me to any places better than/ or in addition to Barrys coilgun site or crystal radio (which is sometimes off) to get instructions on how to use inductors and to match them with capacitors?

thanks,

jeanna

Jeanna

To be prefectly honest I have not given Gadgits airconditioner much thought .
I figure I will work on getting MY airconditioner going and he can work on his

:)

I do have alot of things I need to work on .......but I have a plan

The B+ in my drawing is the positive side of the battery .
If you look at the clip that says B+ you will see that the jaws are open ......it is " biting " 2 different pins on the transforemr . it is in effect the pair of wires that would be twisted toghether if this was a hand made coil .

So far I mostly just try different caps and see what happens .
It does not take long to see if you are going in the right direction .
The big problem I have is not enough sizes of caps .

I did take an old monitor apart yesterday . It had quite a few caps ......some of them are 200V a couple of them 1600V

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on August 03, 2009, 10:35:20 PM

@Jesus

Quote from: nievesoliveras on August 03, 2009, 09:58:05 AM
Thank you @electricme ! I will try that or a 12v led I have available.

Jesus

A 12 volt LED will not work.
The circuit is overheating because it is looking too much like a short circuit, to eliminate the heat, you have to reduce the current to the device, or put the 2n3055 on a much bigger heat sink.
In other words you are making the Tr work over its limits, over current or over voltage.

The 12v LED means it will work across a 12v supply, it may work in series also, but it will not work as you expect it to.
The whole circuit just might stop working.

The 12v bulb is the best, remember how a 12v globe was used in a dummy load at the back of a 27meg transceiver, everytime you pushed the leaver on the mic to test its output?

The 12v LED has a 1/8th watt resister in series with the K or A to reduce the current to it, it will light, the heat in the transistor will not appear, but the main output you are expecting, will not appear properly.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 03, 2009, 10:50:25 PM

@ jeanna

At one time I think you were interested in how to make the JT blink an LED. Here is a blinking JT circuit. It also will run for a very long time, about 1/2 year. Video attached.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 03, 2009, 11:04:59 PM

Xee2:

What in that circuit makes the led blink exactly? I just want to know for my own continuing education. I purchased last year about 5 blinking leds from electronic goldmine and they work fine on a reg. JT circuit. I wonder what the longevity of the factory blinking ones might be? Probably not as long as your circuit because I am thinking, they must have put something in those factory blinking leds to make them blink, and it might waste energy?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 03, 2009, 11:10:13 PM

@ Pirate88179

Quote from: Pirate88179 on August 03, 2009, 11:04:59 PM
What in that circuit makes the led blink exactly?

The time it takes the capacitor to charge up.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 03, 2009, 11:16:22 PM

Xee2:

Ah, thank you. I see now.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 03, 2009, 11:30:00 PM

Wonderful xee2,

I hope that was the train and not the led making the roaring sound? ;D

I like to know the limits of things, and finding the lower limits seems safe for early tests. I often learn a great deal by having this outlook.

So, is this circuit which is feeding back into its own battery using more energy from the battery? or maybe it is using less. I bet you already told me in the corner with an amps draw number.
How would this work with a supercap instead of a battery, I wonder?

I have been making myself dizzy today trying to wrap my head around matching inductors to capacitors.

When you are doing this, do you have a rule of thumb that you use to get close to the right match?
Here is the problem:

The earth currents seem to oscillate at a rate of about 2.25 to 2.50Mhz and I want to create a tank circuit that will resonate along with them, .......?

I went to Barrys coilgun site. There I came to the conclusion that I could wrap a piece of 24g or 26g wire around a straw 7T and with a 10kpF cap in series it would oscillate at that rate. Later at deep fried Neon, the number was confirmed for a parallel cap.

Is this the way you would go about it?
To first calculate the resonance amounts of cap and inductor to match the frequency?

Sometimes I feel close and sometimes it all eludes me.

I will try that straw inductor I just mentioned. The cap is surprisingly high value. I would figure a much smaller amount for such a high frequency, but I am just learning...

thanks for the circuit too,

jeanna

edit.
While I was typing you were explaining this to Bill. I like this.
166 days eh?

Bill, you could make a drum machine out of something like this!.

I really like it. The tank is what is doing it. very nice.
j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 03, 2009, 11:53:43 PM

@ jeanna

This was experiment at reducing power to see how long JT could run on super cap. I do not have a super cap, but I am sure it will not run anywhere near as long as on a battery. A lot of the power goes back into battery. A battery cap may help catch the returned power. I do not know more. It was just a test. Can you re-post link to cheap super caps? I looked but could not find them.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 03, 2009, 11:59:26 PM

Xee2:

Here you go:

http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/90420-capacitor-ultra-10f-2-7v-radial-eshsr-0010c0-002r7.html

These are $3.54 for 10 Farads. This is a pretty good price for this size.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 04, 2009, 12:07:52 AM

@ Pirate88179

Thanks. Yes, that is a good price.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 04, 2009, 12:37:20 AM

X:

If you want larger sizes....scroll down on that page and you have a wide choice. But, for the really big one, like the 650F cap, Gadgetmall has the best price on those I have seen on the net. I started out with the smaller one (I salvaged from a shake flashlight, and didn't even know what a supercap was at that time) It was, I think, .47 F at 5.5 volts. Those 10's are really fun to play with and I have made several videos showing what they can do. But, they have 20's, 50's, 100's etc.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 04, 2009, 12:45:29 AM

Pirate88179

LED stays lit with 100K resistor and blinks slower with 500K resistor. Since only time significant power is used is when LED blinks, then reducing blink rate should increase battery life (or super cap run time).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on August 04, 2009, 10:53:56 AM

@all

Everybody is experimenting hard lately, That is very good for all of us.

@Electricme

I tried a 12 volt bulb in series with the collector connection and the transistor did not heat up as usual, But the high voltage from the secondary disappeared.
It does not give a single volt dc or ac out.

But at twelve volts input the circuit behaves as if it were 1.5 volts, no appreciable heat on the transistor.

So about the 12 volt bulb as a transistor heat quencher you are absolutely right. The only problem is that it kills the pickup output.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 04, 2009, 11:04:23 AM

@ jesus .. what if you wound a second one exactly like the first pickup coil left

all that is intact ... think you will pull ou put from the second coil ?

ist?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 04, 2009, 03:17:30 PM

Just a quick picture of my upside down garden. One of my north electrodes is directly under this garden.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 04, 2009, 04:35:49 PM

OMG......

WOW

OK I FOUND AN ENGIEZER ADAPTOR 16V 4 AMP

THEN I HOOKED IT UP TO MY 6" SREEL RING LIKE A JT ..

AND 2 NEOS 1 SIDE AND 1 NEO THE OTHER ... I HAVE 2 COPPER COATED CARBON RODS FOR WELDING SO NEOZAP TIME ...

IN LIKE LESS THAN 2 MIN I HAD THE CARBON ROD GLOWING RED HOT

SOME ONE NEED A HEATER ... LOL

NEVER MIND HOW BRIGHT THE LIGHT WAS FRON THE SPARK GAP AGIN 16V 4 AMP

DONT TOUCH THE RODS OR THE NEOS....

IST

ILL TAKE SOME PICTURES ... I NEVER TRYED A BULB BUT IF YOU CAN GET THE JT TO POWER THIS OR TO CONTROL THIS THEN YOU GOT ALL THE POWER YOU NEED .....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGv4gVRjRwE

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on August 04, 2009, 05:38:23 PM

" So about the 12 volt bulb as a transistor heat quencher you are absolutely right. The only problem is that it kills the pickup output. "

Hey Jesus, great work.

Maybe if you try a variable resistor in front of the 12v bulb, it wouldn't hog all the energy...or even a smaller bulb.

Just a thought, hope it helps.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on August 04, 2009, 06:21:14 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on August 04, 2009, 11:04:23 AM
@ jesus .. what if you wound a second one exactly like the first pickup coil left

all that is intact ... think you will pull ou put from the second coil ?

ist?

Pardon my ignorance.
Are you saying, to make a secondary winding as the one on the left side and check if it outputs voltage?
Nice video. Tremendous power!

Quote from: Cap-Z-ro on August 04, 2009, 05:38:23 PM
" So about the 12 volt bulb as a transistor heat quencher you are absolutely right. The only problem is that it kills the pickup output. "

Hey Jesus, great work.

Maybe if you try a variable resistor in front of the 12v bulb, it wouldn't hog all the energy...or even a smaller bulb.

Just a thought, hope it helps.

Regards...

I discovered that the 12 volt bulb I used is an halogen bulb and it needs a transformer to work properly.

Lets see What I can do.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 04, 2009, 07:15:23 PM

Jesus:

That is not the type of bulb Jim was talking about. What he meant was just a simple, Edison based tail light bulb that works on 12 volts. They should be a pretty standard item of either a GE 1157 or 1159.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on August 04, 2009, 07:27:35 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on August 04, 2009, 07:15:23 PM
Jesus:

That is not the type of bulb Jim was talking about. What he meant was just a simple, Edison based tail light bulb that works on 12 volts. They should be a pretty standard item of either a GE 1157 or 1159.

Bill

Thank you bill, but I said that I was going to experiment with what I got available and that was what I did.
Then reading from the catalog I got the bulbs it says that it is a 12v halogen 50 watts.
I will keep searching among my buckets salvaged and bought parts looking for the light bulb and a buzzer for another experiment.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 04, 2009, 07:34:09 PM

@ist,
That was an amazing spark!
It seemed to shoot straight out of the copper stick.

When you say 4 amps, is that what it was drawing from the power supply or was that just the amount available?

@jesus, hmm there is hope yet.
I wonder if it will work with a regular 12 volt light bulb.
I was waiting to see.
I do not understand this principle of using a bulb to protect against overheating. It seems to me that you are using the tesla coil and your circuit to light the bulb.

I guess lighting a halogen is an amazing accomplishment in its own right, though , isn't it?

I am sure you will get it. You have the persistence that you need.
Ist made a good suggestion.
In working with my 2 tier circuit, I have been helped by the fact that I have one that is almost exactly the same as the main one.
It picks up the resonance perfectly, as you might predict, and perhaps because of that, everything works together.

But my question remains:
Are you sure the transistor is switching off?
Perhaps it would if you put more turns on the base?

I made this little video to clarify my Scope shots on the datalogging page.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfwMFrqGtaE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfwMFrqGtaE)
enjoy

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 04, 2009, 07:35:49 PM

Jesus:

I understand. I don't know how it is there, but here they even sell these in the grocery stores for less than $1.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 04, 2009, 08:39:08 PM

@ jeanna

Good video. I could even read the scope screen.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 04, 2009, 08:41:06 PM

@ ist

I am not sure I understand what you are doing. Is this correct? Probably not. :(

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 04, 2009, 09:30:03 PM

YOU BET CARBON RODS

JEANNA IT IS 4 AMP I DONT KNOW HOW MUCH IT USES ... IM NOT SILLY ENOUGH TO HOOK UP A METER SO I BLOW IT ;)

LOL

I HAVE DONE THIS WITH 12VDC 1 AMP TOO IN AN OLD RING VIDEO ...

I MANAGED TO MELT THE CARBON ROD ;D ;)

IST

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 04, 2009, 11:34:42 PM

@ ist

What holds magnets and carbon rods together?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 04, 2009, 11:45:01 PM

THE METAL ALIGATOR CLIPS ...

hey

i took out an inductor from a microwave thick wire looks like 14 turns... on a small feroite ...

i hooked it up get good results with it too ...

so good i almost blow 800v 3 amp diodes they get really hot and it is NOT FROM THE HEAT OF THE GAP IT IS AMPARAGE AND MY WIRES MELT .... LOL

IST

NOT EVEN 1 TRANSISTOR ... :o ;D

2 MORE PICS FROM ALIYAH FIRST ONE A SMALL PUZZEL

SECOND .... LOL GUESS... SHE SURE CAN DRAW... ;D 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on August 05, 2009, 12:19:08 AM

Quote from: jeanna on August 04, 2009, 07:34:09 PM
...
I guess lighting a halogen is an amazing accomplishment in its own right, though , isn't it?
...
But my question remains:
Are you sure the transistor is switching off?
Perhaps it would if you put more turns on the base?

I made this little video to clarify my Scope shots on the datalogging page.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfwMFrqGtaE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfwMFrqGtaE)
enjoy

jeanna

Nice video! For me an oscilloscope screen is like kapanadze's writing, I dont know what it means.

I dont know if the transistor is switching off. I am waiting for some parts that include transistors. I spent my hard earned money on parts and left other things behind. I need to catch up.

I will add more wire to the base and see.

Quote from: Pirate88179 on August 04, 2009, 07:35:49 PM
Jesus:

I understand. I don't know how it is there, but here they even sell these in the grocery stores for less than $1.

Bill

Here they sell them at auto parts like western auto, pepboys etc.

@xee2

I think that @ist has a different transformer than the one you depict on your schematic. He has an explained vaguely ring transformer.

@ist

It seems that you have an artist on the family.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on August 05, 2009, 12:23:03 AM

@IST

If the neos are attached to the back of the clip, what are they actually doing? Have you tried the same experiment without the neos?

Yes, you do not use any semi conductors in the circuit but if you ever find a way to harness anything out of the circuit you will need some electronics.

I am also not completely positive but this sure looks a lot like a mini arc welder circuit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 05, 2009, 12:37:24 AM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on August 05, 2009, 12:19:08 AM
Nice video! For me an oscilloscope screen is like kapanadze's writing, I dont know what it means.

Thanks.
It is this.
The time goes from left to right.
So, if you look at the line from left going right you can see the voltage goes up and down.
And in the earth it seems that it goes up and down really fast. Not very high or very low, but very fast.

I believe this is what both Stubblefield and Tesla were working with.
They approached it differently, except they both worked with fast oscillating changing charges.
Maybe I need to wind the coil for a crystal battery. There is one wound on a 4 inch diameter oatmeal tube. That would boost the amps, I believe. I am not sure, but no one seems to be able to help much in these areas.
The radio guys all know about excluding waves of certain frequencies, so that is a start. It would be the opposite goal, I assume.
What a lot to study. hmm

Quote
I dont know if the transistor is switching off. ...

I will add more wire to the base and see.

I hope it helps.
I have never understood all the stuff people told you that was supposed to help.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on August 05, 2009, 08:21:01 AM

Quote from: jeanna on August 05, 2009, 12:37:24 AM
Thanks.
It is this.
The time goes from left to right.
So, if you look at the line from left going right you can see the voltage goes up and down.
And in the earth it seems that it goes up and down really fast. Not very high or very low, but very fast.

I believe this is what both Stubblefield and Tesla were working with.
They approached it differently, except they both worked with fast oscillating changing charges.
Maybe I need to wind the coil for a crystal battery. There is one wound on a 4 inch diameter oatmeal tube. That would boost the amps, I believe. I am not sure, but no one seems to be able to help much in these areas.
The radio guys all know about excluding waves of certain frequencies, so that is a start. It would be the opposite goal, I assume.
What a lot to study. hmmI hope it helps.
I have never understood all the stuff people told you that was supposed to help.

jeanna

I dont know much but there is some information about the wire width related with the amperage and the voltage. I think that it was that if you want more voltage you use thin wire and if you want more amperage you use thick wire.
Also something about lowering the voltage to increase the amperage.

When I worked as a car electromechanic years ago I saw several times that when the battery was low and you tried to start the car the amperage meter climbed to its maximum of 50 amps and if the battery was okay the amperage was about 10 to 15 amps with maybe a little spike of high amperage.

So the low voltage brings the high amperage.

I can be wrong though.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 05, 2009, 09:01:37 AM

Quote from: MrMag on August 05, 2009, 12:23:03 AM
@IST

If the neos are attached to the back of the clip, what are they actually doing? Have you tried the same experiment without the neos?

Yes, you do not use any semi conductors in the circuit but if you ever find a way to harness anything out of the circuit you will need some electronics.

I am also not completely positive but this sure looks a lot like a mini arc welder circuit.

I CAN TAKE POWER AWAY WITH OUT ANY DIODES ...

IT CAN GET PAINFUL IF YOU RECTIFY IT ... I WAS THINKING .. OF USEING 4 FEEDS

THE TRANSFORMER DOES NOT MATTER .. THE COIL DOES NOT MATTER ...

USE LOW TURN AND THICK WIRE AND LOW INDUCTANCE ... HERE IS A PIC OF MY LAST COIL I USED THIS WITH ...

YES THE NEOS DO IMPROVE THIS EFFECT I GOT SIMILAR EFFECTS WITH OUT THE NEOS .. BUT NOT AS NICE ..

IST

I HAVE BEEN DOING IT THIS WAY SINCE I STARTED ... WAY BACK AT THE TURBO COIL ... ;D ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on August 05, 2009, 09:08:06 AM

Quote from: jeanna on August 03, 2009, 11:30:00 PM

...The earth currents seem to oscillate at a rate of about 2.25 to 2.50Mhz.... end quote

Current oscillations is what Tesla was talking about. He called them non-hertzian waves. These are not your regular emwaves. Tesla was convinced that radiomen of the day were not taking into account the scalar or compressive electrical waves that can travel through a conducting medium like the Earth. Imagine the Earth as a dense cloud of charge carriers and you light off an electrical firecracker in this cloud. The waves radiate just like sound waves through the cloud but real fast. Like when you hit a block of metal with a hammer how much time does it take the energy to reach the other side of the block. Now if you hit a block of air not very much energy transfer here. Superconductors work because they increase the density of the copper atomic lattice (and conductor electron cloud) and the voltage goes scalar. Plasma is superconductive because the electrons are completley free of the neucleus and coherent layers or tube within tubes of charge carriers can form. This allows scalar transmission of electrical potential at very high efficiency. The current flow at velocities of the speed of light not the millimeter or so per second in a normal room temperature negative plasma we call copper wire.

Jeanna check out those current oscillations to make sure they are coming from the Earth and not an fm transmitter leaking into your detectors. Great discovery if they are the real deal. Great work here in the JT thread by all. Wish I had a lab and some time to help out.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on August 05, 2009, 09:59:10 AM

innovation_station said:

THE METAL ALIGATOR CLIPS ...

hey

Quote
i took out an inductor from a microwave thick wire looks like 14 turns... on a small feroite ...
i hooked it up get good results with it too ...
so good i almost blow 800v 3 amp diodes...

Were the diodes in series? That would be 2400 V. And they got hot?! Wow. That might by a good JT circuit.

Quote
SECOND .... LOL GUESS... SHE SURE CAN DRAW... ;D 8)

Is that big picture of you on Reply #8930? ;) ;) :) :)

--Lee

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 05, 2009, 10:19:26 AM

i just used the 1 diode it gets HOT .. to stop from backfeeding to the coil .. cuz the coil will get hot tooo

THE LAST PIC ALI DREW IS A HEAD PEICE ... ;D GOES WITH THE STAFF...

FIRST PIC IS MUCH MORE THAN ANYONE WILL EVER KNOW ...

UNLESS YOU HAVE YOUR LITTLE ONE TELLING YOU HOW IT GOES AND WHAT IT IS ... ;)

THE DUDE IN THE TOP PIC OF ALIYAH'S IS HOLDING IN HIS RIGHT HAND A SUPERVISOR ... ;)

REALLY THERE 2 PEOPLE IN THAT PIC .. AND IM 14 ... AND DONT ANY OF YOU FORGET THAT.... :)

DOES 3 MAKE 21? :D

IST

SORRY LEE THAT IS 1 DIODE RATED AT 3 AMP 800V I HAVE BOUT A 1000 OF THEASE DIODES MAYBE ILL HOOK UP A FEW OF THEM ...

GOT ANY IDEAS HOW I SHOULD HOOK THEM UP ? 8)

LEE YOUR CORRECT THE SECOND PICTURE IS OF THE FIRST ;)

AND SHE DREW IT ON THE BACK OF THE PAPER .... :D

KINDA LIKE THE QUESTION AND HERE IS THE ANSWER ...

I JUST LOVE CHILDREN AND I DONT THINK THEY ARE BEING TREATED WITH THE RESPECT THEY DESERVE...... ;)

FYI .... THERE SOUL IS MUCH OLDER THAN THERE PARENTS .... :o

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on August 05, 2009, 11:28:10 AM

innovation_station said:

Quote
SORRY LEE THAT IS 1 DIODE RATED AT 3 AMP 800V

Like a 1N4700 or a little smaller? European?

Quote
I HAVE BOUT A 1000 OF THEASE DIODES MAYBE ILL HOOK UP A FEW OF THEM ...
GOT ANY IDEAS HOW I SHOULD HOOK THEM UP ? 8)

Yes. The Cockroft-Walton generator in resonance should give you up to, say, ~250,000 VDC
Use HV caps with as large a value as you can afford.
(I got that info from an old reference on building Cockroft-Walton's.)
You might need to wire them in series/parallel to get more voltage and amperage? Depends on what's available where you are.

--Lee

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on August 05, 2009, 11:50:20 AM

@all

The real car 12 volt bulb allows the transistor to heat, when the halogen bulb did not allowed the transistor to heat up.

In the meantime I do more experiments I will post my first ladder sparg gap.
I did it with the piece of wood I used to make my first motor rotor and two bicycle spokes.

I am moving on the right direction it is just that we have to solve thousand of details by reading and experimenting.

Must of the time the information is incomplete.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on August 05, 2009, 12:11:11 PM

@all

I had to wait for the electronic parts to cool down in order to reconnect the now cool power supply and take some photos.

The transformer, input choke and blue toroid are not connected to the circuit. They are parts I found looking for a buzzer to make an experiment.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 05, 2009, 12:12:37 PM

@ nievesoliveras

Quote from: nievesoliveras on August 05, 2009, 11:50:20 AM
In the meantime I do more experiments I will post my first ladder sparg gap.
I did it with the piece of wood I used to make my first motor rotor and two bicycle spokes.

Nice looking spark gap. Are you duplicating what Yucca did?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Yucca on August 05, 2009, 12:17:04 PM

Hello all JTers,

I recently made a flyback transformer based HV supply. It is configured like a JT using one of the flyback low V coils as a trigger coil.

It has an input power range from about 1.5mW to about 12W.

here's a vid of high power operation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMl3pXvJ-mY&feature=channel

Today I experimented with it's low power operation a little. Pics below are of a neon bulb and LED lighting at 1.5mW (1.5V 1mA). I think it could be made even more efficient using zener diode for base bias instead of the potential divider resistors at present which constantly burn a little power.

So if any of you see a trashed TV, maybe take it home, strip it for parts, then take it to the dump.

NOTE:
the little toroid on the board in the pic is not a JT it is just a filtering choke for the low voltage input line. The TV flyback is operating like a normal JT but with a third high turn winding for HV out.

@Jesus,
Grab yourself a working flyback as soon as you can, you'll really like it. at my local council refuse site, if you ask the workers nicely and tell them you wan't a spare part out of the TV then you'll return it, then they just let you take a TV away no problem.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on August 05, 2009, 12:20:31 PM

Quote from: xee2 on August 05, 2009, 12:12:37 PM
@ nievesoliveras

Nice looking spark gap. Are you duplicating what Yucca did?

Yes. And also trying to learn at the same time.
I also got a yellow transformer to duplicate @resonanceman's.
But mine has 8 legs one side and 4 legs at the other side. It is not equal.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on August 05, 2009, 12:33:12 PM

Quote from: Yucca on August 05, 2009, 12:17:04 PM
Hello all JTers,

I recently made a flyback transformer based HV supply. It is configured like a JT using one of the flyback low V coils as a trigger coil.

It has an input power range from about 1.5mW to about 12W.

here's a vid of high power operation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMl3pXvJ-mY&feature=channel

Today I experimented with it's low power operation a little. Pics below are of a neon bulb and LED lighting at 1.5mW (1.5V 1mA). I think it could be made even more efficient using zener diode for base bias instead of the potential divider resistors at present which constantly burn a little power.

So if any of you see a trashed TV, maybe take it home, strip it for parts, then take it to the dump.

NOTE:
the little toroid on the board in the pic is not a JT it is just a filtering choke for the low voltage input line. The TV flyback is operating like a JT.

@Jesus,
Grab yourself a working flyback as soon as you can, you'll really like it. at my local council refuse site, if you ask the workers nicely and tell them you wan't a spare part out of the TV then you'll return it, then they just let you take a TV away no problem.

Nice work!!!
If the ladder is working with the 1.5v also. You are great!!!
Does it need a new schematic for the connections?

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Yucca on August 05, 2009, 12:36:49 PM

The ladder only kicks in at higher powers, it would be great at the lower power though!

I just realised that the zener for greater efficiency would not be needed for low power operation, best would be to remove the resistor divider completely and then just put 100ohm between trigger coil and base.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 05, 2009, 12:39:07 PM

@ Yucca

Quote from: Yucca on August 05, 2009, 12:17:04 PM
Today I experimented with it's low power operation a little. Pics below are of a neon bulb and LED lighting at 1.5mW (1.5V 1mA).

Thanks for the report. I would think you must have had to changed your 100 ohm resistor to a 10 ohm resistor in order to get the transistor to turn on with 1.5 volts. In fact, I would suspect that it would work with only the 1000 ohm resistor when using 1.5 volts.

EDIT: I see you were posting the same idea while I was posting this.

EDIT 2: I think I was wrong about the 10 ohm resistor. You would need a larger value, not a smaller value to replace the 100 ohm resistor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 05, 2009, 12:48:01 PM

@ Yucca

Here is your circuit drawn as typical Joule thief but with your resistor biasing. I think this is correct.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on August 05, 2009, 12:54:54 PM

Quote from: xee2 on August 05, 2009, 12:48:01 PM
@ Yucca

Here is your circuit drawn as typical Joule thief but with your resistor biasing. I think this is correct.

Thank you @xee2. We only need now @yucca's approval of your schematic.
You are fast drawing schematics!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 05, 2009, 01:24:33 PM

Quote from: sparks on August 05, 2009, 09:08:06 AM

"...The earth currents seem to oscillate at a rate of about 2.25 to 2.50Mhz.... "

Jeanna check out those current oscillations to make sure they are coming from the Earth and not an fm transmitter leaking into your detectors. Great discovery if they are the real deal. Great work here in the JT thread by all. Wish I had a lab and some time to help out.

Sparks,
Please take a look at the video I posted on youtube, yesterday.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfwMFrqGtaE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfwMFrqGtaE)

It is a slide show of stills I made from highest resolution screen to the lowest on my scope.
In it I was using the plain earth battery with 2 additional non-alike Stubblefield coils added to each end.
The voltage with the Stubblefield coils is 30-40mV higher than with the plain Copper+zinc- probes in the ground.
(I made a technical error and was not able to add those comparable pics using the plain battery, but I can tell you the waves are similar and much lower. There is undulation but the amplitude is not as high.)

I am seeing fractals of these waves. To me that is a nice hint that they are natural. Someone told me that the fm transmitters were in the micro volt range so the milli volts are probably not from a radio transmitter.

But, I do not know how to tell other than to assume the buried nail and copper pipe are not going to pick up a radio and since the waves are the same only less strong voltage, they must be from the same source... the ground, or very near the ground. (I hope)

I watched the video of Meyl showing the scalar waves which he showed to be in the 7+Mhz level.
I might be seeing that, but not with this scope. The fastest wave I have seen to date, was 5.5 Mhz.
I hope to be seeing that again...
More coming.

I better go out and do that now.

thank you, sparks.
I appreciate your comments,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 05, 2009, 02:05:36 PM

JESUS AND YUCCA THOSE ARE WHAT I NEED FOR A GAP

BUT THE CARBON SEAMS TO DO QUITE WELL MAYBE I CAN SOME HOW MAKE 1 OF CARBON ...

BUT IM THINKING THE EARTH BATTERY ... AS MANY AS I NEED A TPU RING ... AND NEO ZAP

I HAVE THIS WHOLE SYSTEM FIGURED IN MY MIND JUST NOT IN FRONT OF ME YET ...

NO WORRIES IM ON IT LOL

COULD EVEN GO SO FAR AS MECHANICIAL SWITCHING DRIVEN BY WIND ... TO STOP FROM BURNING OUT SPARK GAPS ...

PLUS I BET IT IS SPEWING OUT ENGERY EVERY WHERE I NEVER TRYED A CFL OR A NEON YET TO SEE IF THEY LITE WIRELESSLY .. BUT IF YOU HAD MANY COILS ... AND GAPS YOU COULD ROTATE THE NEO ZAP SO YOU STILL GET LOTS OF OUTPUT WITH OUT HEAT ...

I DUGG OUT MY SG 36 COIL ... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D AND I GOT LOTS OF CARBON RODS... LOL AND NEOS TOO

IST!

SG 36 NEO RING = RING OF FIRE .... ;)

I HOPE TO ASSEMBLE SOME OF IT TONIGHT

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on August 05, 2009, 02:16:50 PM

@ist

Those rods under water would make a nice hho generator ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 05, 2009, 02:36:08 PM

they make even better cold fusion as i think it is called

but this gets dangrous ... i have exploded a poor designed hho cell in the past ... it was a weeeeee bit scary ....

:o

i think if you did this under water you will run the risk of burning the hho under water ... as your makeing hho and oxy i bet it boils water fast and cheeply .... ;) ;D

some one need a water heater ??

what tepm does it take to melt carbon rods?

ist!

sheesh now you have my cold fusion cell driveing my turbine on steam pressire and turning huge hpg's at a damm high speed ... from a jt next ... yikes ...

now what ? ever gonna throw a dollar in the street for the child on the street ?

w

here ya go ... IH you rock bro!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fd3jAuCi3-c

and H2inICE! GREAT VIDEO! WHEN YOU GONNA JT IT WHEN U GONNA JT! ;D

HERE IS A GREAT VIDEO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLUeGX3hNpU

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Yucca on August 05, 2009, 04:26:45 PM

Quote from: xee2 on August 05, 2009, 12:39:07 PM
@ Yucca

Thanks for the report. I would think you must have had to changed your 100 ohm resistor to a 10 ohm resistor in order to get the transistor to turn on with 1.5 volts. In fact, I would suspect that it would work with only the 1000 ohm resistor when using 1.5 volts.

EDIT: I see you were posting the same idea while I was posting this.

EDIT 2: I think I was wrong about the 10 ohm resistor. You would need a larger value, not a smaller value to replace the 100 ohm resistor.

I was amazed myself but I was running at 1mA 1.5V using 100 Ohm and 1k Ohm divider network. This transistor needs only a miniscule base current.

But yes, for best low V operation the divider needs taking out, the base needs tying high with a resistor (value found thu experiment) then the trigger coil tied to base via another resistor (value thru experiment). This eliminates the constanlt load accross the rails present with the current design. Of course it would only be tuned to a narrow input voltage range, but it would be hella efficient! Maybe OU?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Yucca on August 05, 2009, 04:29:00 PM

Quote from: xee2 on August 05, 2009, 12:48:01 PM
@ Yucca

Here is your circuit drawn as typical Joule thief but with your resistor biasing. I think this is correct.

Hi xee2,

yes pretty much spot on, here's the circuit:

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Yucca on August 05, 2009, 04:53:00 PM

Folks:

just a cautionary note, if you do run up one of these devices, keep any solid state measuring equipment well away from the HV output, it'll get zapped lickety split!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 05, 2009, 05:41:00 PM

Quote from: the_big_m_in_ok on August 05, 2009, 11:28:10 AM
innovation_station said:Like a 1N4700 or a little smaller? European?
Yes. The Cockroft-Walton generator in resonance should give you up to, say, ~250,000 VDC
Use HV caps with as large a value as you can afford.
(I got that info from an old reference on building Cockroft-Walton's.)
You might need to wire them in series/parallel to get more voltage and amperage? Depends on what's available where you are.

--Lee

HELLO LEE

this is the diode i have about 1000 or more of them i looked up the specks ... 50 - 1000v fr 305 -306 i have used both

FR = FAST RECOVERY ... RECTIFIER DIODE .. UP TO 1000V 3 AMP I COULD COOK AN EGG ON IT ;D ;)

http://www.alldatasheet.com/view.jsp?Searchword=FR306

A PIC

IST

RED HOT CARBON ELECTRODE ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkmlYe_NP7E

AND A PIC

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 05, 2009, 06:55:23 PM

I tried to rebuild my blinking JT circuit and I could not get it to work. Do not know why, but it seems that it will not be a very usable circuit if it is hard to replicate.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 05, 2009, 07:29:46 PM

Xee2:

I am sure you did but did you check the led? I have had several of the cheap Chinese ones (Heck they are all probably made there now) just stop working. Back then, I ripped apart my set-up on the breadboard, checked everything (except the led) rewound the JT....and then I finally tried another led....it was fine.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 05, 2009, 09:11:25 PM

i just thought i would up date u all

lol

;)

i just did my first tests on the RING OF FIRE ... works great just 1 coil ...

22 ga sewing machine bobbon i will add a refresher pic of the SG 36 RING OF FIRE .. ;D

i hope to have it running full steam soon!

ist

HERES THE YOU TUBER ... :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRhk_my7b2A

HERE IS A DWG OF HOW I HAVE IT WIRED ... IT WORKS MANY WAYS ;) :D ;D :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on August 05, 2009, 11:15:21 PM

@ist

That 36 coil looks good!
Those bobins are very useful.

@all

I need to get the information on how to use a motor as switch.
I had it, but I lost it.
Also there was a post of a guy charging four batteries using the motor as a switch on this topic.
I have searched up and down and have not been able to find it.

Does anybody has the instructions on how to convert a small motor to a switching device?

I know that it was by cutting some wires on the rotor, but I forgot the process.

Can anybody help?

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 05, 2009, 11:47:51 PM

TY JESUS

but now i got a royal heat problem ... the soft iron bolts are burning hot in a few min .. the electrode on the coil is not hot the diode i have in line is burning hot!!

my coils get verry warm .. hummmm

i did find a solution to the aligator clips i found a soft iron nut and threded the electrode into it

sticks right on the neo length of the electrode does not seam to matter ..

but the heat on the coil can not be good ...

ideas ?

in my last picture you see a heavy amp wire .. as my collector

being im haveing a bit of a heat problem ...

i will build a smaller ring useing microwave inductors from the magnatron ... they have a ferroite core .. im hopeing to reduce the heat in the coils...

if i have secucess with them i will then wind the inductors on a ferroite toride ... or many of them

first i will build a 4 coil inductor unit see if it fixes my heat problem .. i hooked up 2 1000v 3 amp diodes last night to 1 coil both in less than 3 min of run were burning hot ... to hot to touch ...

yet my wires remained cold and my electrodes were warm but not hot ...

hummmmm if im burning up diodes rated at that voltage and amprage ...

what is my output ... ?

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 06, 2009, 11:11:28 AM

@ Yucca

Quote from: Yucca on August 05, 2009, 04:26:45 PM
I was amazed myself but I was running at 1mA 1.5V using 100 Ohm and 1k Ohm divider network. This transistor needs only a miniscule base current.

I suspect that it was not running at 1.5 volts. I think that your meter readings are ONLY THE VOLTAGE AND CURRENT THROUGH BIAS RESISTORS, TRANSISTOR IS NOT TURNING ON.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 06, 2009, 11:51:56 AM

ok got it ...

MUST USE FEROITE AS A CORE TO ELEMANIATE THE HEAT PROBLEM WITH THE SOFT IRON ...

I RAN IT 10 MIN WITH MINIMAL HEAT AT THE COILS...

JUST BECAUSE I HAVE MUCH LESS HEAT I STILL HAVE TONNES OF POWER ...

MY DIODES STILL GET BURNING HOT ... BUT MY COILS BAIRLY HEAT NOW

SO ILL MOVE RIGHT ALONG TO THE JT RINGS ... FOR MY COILS ...

IF I CAN KEEP MY COILS FROM GETTING TOOOOO HOT I HAVE A SOME PLASTIC I WILL USE TO MOUNT THE COILS TO ..

IST

IM ON IT! ;D

HEAT PROBLEM ON THE COILS IS SOLVED .... VERRY LITTLE HEAT NOW

;D ;D ;D ;D

im useing 8 full turns on a 1 " gold mine 14 ga .... almost no heat at the coil ... still huge ou put

20 min solid run coil is cold YAY!!!!!

THIS IS THE COIL IM USEING .. 13 " 14 GA ... IM GONING TO USE 14" 14GA CUZ IM 14 ;D

IM ON THE 814 COIL ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 06, 2009, 01:24:28 PM

IST,
It seems the power supply is off camera.
Let me ask this, please.

Is the neg coming into the bottom of the coil as you drew it, then the pos is on the stick that is crossing the magnets?

Then the carbon makes the very big and warm spark, but the carbon is not attached to anything except your hand?

And, it is not warm anymore?

EDIT
And now, instead of the ring of bobbins, you are using the toroid in the pic with 14g wire?

You move forward with your experiments very fast, and I am not sure if these details from your drawing belong with the latest post.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 06, 2009, 01:47:50 PM

i do move fast ...

sorry

most times it is still too fast for my mind .... sheesh

lol

same hook up as the bobbins same everything just feroite ring core ...

im putting 8 turn 14" 14 ga AND 8 OF THEM on the 814 coil now that i have verry little heat from the coils ... ;D

ist!

ill still build the SG36 ROF ... but it must be driven diffrently than thease coils .. so you dont burn it out cuz the heat from the iron core ... feroite is much faster .. and it aint all over the place .. that i saw yet ;)

got the 814 all wound and mounted some pics ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on August 06, 2009, 03:35:54 PM

What might be interesting is to wind the jt on a copper coil. By controlling the current through the coil the permeability of the core can be altered easily for any given winding configuration or turns ratio. Will require some input or output energy to change the magnetic saturation parameters of the core but the core coil itself will have some induced energy from the torroidal input and output currents. Might be interesting to see voltage drop across a resistor to see what happens to the copper coil core.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on August 06, 2009, 05:46:54 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on August 05, 2009, 11:15:21 PM
@ist

That 36 coil looks good!
Those bobins are very useful.

@all

I need to get the information on how to use a motor as switch.
I had it, but I lost it.
Also there was a post of a guy charging four batteries using the motor as a switch on this topic.
I have searched up and down and have not been able to find it.

Does anybody has the instructions on how to convert a small motor to a switching device?

I know that it was by cutting some wires on the rotor, but I forgot the process.

Can anybody help?

Jesus

Jesus

I have never heard of a motor being made into a switching device .

I do remember a small motor being made into a pulsing device .

It make a small motor into a pulsing device just open it up and cut one wire going to the commutator
It should still run but should put out pulses ,

There is a video out there somewhere about this .... can't remember who did it or what it was called .

gary

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I just thought I would report my last 4 days progress .

Nothing'

Nothing.

Burnt up some parts .

Nothing.

:)

are you impressed?

I have given up on trying to make my monitor transformer JT self charge .
It looks to me that there is no subsitiute for a bunch of inductors .
The trick seems to be to use small enough inductors to not choke the circuit .....
A major rule as always seems to be ......don't get greedy .
trying to do it with to few inductors seems to cause failure .
Trying to do it with to large of inductors seems to cause failure.

I am thinking the ideal setup might be a string of inductors with a cap between each inductor . ... if the cap was the right size ( and the inductors are all the same size ) the whole thing should resonate as one unit .

My monitor transformer was one of the things that got smoked.
I have opened it up . I now have a plastic core ( with pins ) that I can rewind .........and the ferrite core .
I am not sure why it did not work ......... the readings seemed OK .......no shorted coils as far as I could see .
I have only got to the first layer of windings so far .
The winding I had been using for my base only has 6 windings .....they are spaced about 1/8 inch apart .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 06, 2009, 06:35:33 PM

814 ;D

more pics as i finish it i will try this for the center

ist!

ps .... ITS MORE A ARC REACTOR THAN IT IS A JT ... LOL

IST! 814 ARC REACTOR RING ... USEING 814 TOROIDE COIL

BTW IT MIGHT NEED A FAN :D.. OR SOME COLD FUSION WATER COOLING ..... 8) :o

think i can have some change now .... ?

W

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on August 06, 2009, 08:19:06 PM

innovation_station said:

Quote
more pics as i finish it i will try this for the center

Your toroids look like the ones The Shack(formerly Radio Shack) sells. They sell two sizes of toroid RF chokes; 5-6 Amp and 30-35 Amp. They appear alike on the outside, so it's obvious the use a machine to wind them. I was thinking of taping two opposite each other with the leads at 180 deg. from each other. Then, of course, they'd be 1:1 toroid transformers.

--Lee

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on August 06, 2009, 08:32:08 PM

I have been trying to replicate some of my recent stuff with decent success...not as good but close enough. Here are some picks of 16pickup turns but I'm only using 8 and I'm lighting NEON and 2 LEDS. This system feed back into itself.

Jeanna I need help from you...this system uses both ac and dc but I need your attention to detail to help. I'm already back feeding some half of this back into the system with almost or much or more back out so...potential,,SHould this be nextdoor? I'm not sure because I use DC too.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on August 06, 2009, 09:26:24 PM

@resonanceman

I am on the same boat. My transformer got brooken, I lost my solder iron and my power supply got shorted on an experiment today.

I am way behind now.
This hobby of mine is getting too expensive.

@ist
That you are making seems something from the science fiction movies.

@stprue
I wish you good luck on your experiments.

Same for the other members.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 06, 2009, 09:26:31 PM

@Gary,
I am sorry to hear about your last 4 daze... too bad about burning stuff up.

QuoteI am thinking the ideal setup might be a string of inductors with a cap between each inductor . ... if the cap was the right size ( and the inductors are all the same size ) the whole thing should resonate as one unit .

Next door, I am trying to use the pulses from the lower basic level joule thief to change the output of various combinations of leds and inductors and caps.

Recently, I had a segment of the circuit that I split into 2 segments. I was trying to be able to add lights and not have other parts of the circuit change. For the longest time/ many tries, I got nowhere, but then I added another inductor and spread the cap to span across 2 inductors. When I did that, the other part of the circuit did not effect the one I had just manipulated.

So, I think you are correct here.

As you are suggesting, I was trying to add caps in a line between inductors today too.
No luck so far. (The entire circuit went out today whenever I put on the new one. aargh!)
As with you, my progress has felt slow.
I make a success one day then go along for another 10 days with no more progress.

And, I think there is much more to be explored.
I am very glad to hear of your experiments.
Thank you for sharing your ideas.

jeanna

@stprue,
I am not sure how I can help you??
but I do not trust your power supply. I know they are supposed to be cool, but you even discovered a leak. Why not use a AAA or AA like the rest of us?
Then you can be sure and there will never be a question. You can use the wall power to recharge the battery.

I am also afraid that I am unable to follow what you are doing with the lighting a neon and also recharging... It is my fault. I have never made the slayer or kubikop self charger. I haven't even made the jesus self charger, and it is right here!
I am sure I would be able to follow along if I had.

sorry,
jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on August 06, 2009, 09:41:31 PM

Quote from: jeanna on August 06, 2009, 09:26:31 PM
...
I am sure I would be able to follow along if I had.

sorry,
jeanna

Maybe you know what I am going to ask you.
There is a very small circuit tha uses 5 volts to light a cfl.
I was checking it today and it only uses two transistors, three cpacitors, one resistor and a small transformer.

The thing is that it lights the cfl brightly. The secret lies inside the turns of that transformer and the conections to the other pieces.

On one of those findings of yours. Have you not found for cassuality the transformer inside schematic?

The model is the "TDK TAD170"

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 06, 2009, 09:52:08 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on August 06, 2009, 09:26:24 PM
@resonanceman

I am on the same boat. My transformer got brooken, I lost my solder iron and my power supply got shorted on an experiment today.

I am way behind now.
This hobby of mine is getting too expensive.

@ist
That you are making seems something from the science fiction movies.

@stprue
I wish you good luck on your experiments.

Same for the other members.

Jesus

CAN WE PLEASE CALL IT SCIENCE REALITY ;D :D

WILLIAM

PRETTY PLEASE ..... ;D 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on August 06, 2009, 10:04:54 PM

Quote from: jeanna on August 06, 2009, 09:26:31 PM
@Gary,
I am sorry to hear about your last 4 daze... too bad about burning stuff up.

Next door, I am trying to use the pulses from the lower basic level joule thief to change the output of various combinations of leds and inductors and caps.

Recently, I had a segment of the circuit that I split into 2 segments. I was trying to be able to add lights and not have other parts of the circuit change. For the longest time/ many tries, I got nowhere, but then I added another inductor and spread the cap to span across 2 inductors. When I did that, the other part of the circuit did not effect the one I had just manipulated.

So, I think you are correct here.

As you are suggesting, I was trying to add caps in a line between inductors today too.
No luck so far. (The entire circuit went out today whenever I put on the new one. aargh!)
As with you, my progress has felt slow.
I make a success one day then go along for another 10 days with no more progress.

And, I think there is much more to be explored.
I am very glad to hear of your experiments.
Thank you for sharing your ideas.

jeanna

@stprue,
I am not sure how I can help you??
but I do not trust your power supply. I know they are supposed to be cool, but you even discovered a leak. Why not use a AAA or AA like the rest of us?
Then you can be sure and there will never be a question. You can use the wall power to recharge the battery.

I am also afraid that I am unable to follow what you are doing with the lighting a neon and also recharging... It is my fault. I have never made the slayer or kubikop self charger. I haven't even made the jesus self charger, and it is right here!
I am sure I would be able to follow along if I had.

sorry,
jeanna

Even before I discovered that my power supply is inducting energy I always used a battery as well. What I see in these experiments is quite amazing but nobody seems to notice. 8 Turns at 126vdc right now...not as good as my last results but still better them anything I have ever achived on a basic JT. With so many taps to feed back...well I need help because it see to good to be true..right and I do not have the time to speed up this positive or negative process.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on August 06, 2009, 10:25:20 PM

WOW I jst tossed in my neo winding into the out put and it was going up.......and this is after I up plugeged it. Then it dropped. hahahaha I didn't even try to loop it yet wow. I THINK THIS IS THE BEST RESULTS I HAVE HAD.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on August 06, 2009, 10:43:32 PM

Quote from: jeanna on August 06, 2009, 09:26:31 PM
@Gary,
I am sorry to hear about your last 4 daze... too bad about burning stuff up.

Next door, I am trying to use the pulses from the lower basic level joule thief to change the output of various combinations of leds and inductors and caps.

Recently, I had a segment of the circuit that I split into 2 segments. I was trying to be able to add lights and not have other parts of the circuit change. For the longest time/ many tries, I got nowhere, but then I added another inductor and spread the cap to span across 2 inductors. When I did that, the other part of the circuit did not effect the one I had just manipulated.

So, I think you are correct here.

As you are suggesting, I was trying to add caps in a line between inductors today too.
No luck so far. (The entire circuit went out today whenever I put on the new one. aargh!)
As with you, my progress has felt slow.
I make a success one day then go along for another 10 days with no more progress.

And, I think there is much more to be explored.
I am very glad to hear of your experiments.
Thank you for sharing your ideas.

jeanna

@stprue,
I am not sure how I can help you??
but I do not trust your power supply. I know they are supposed to be cool, but you even discovered a leak. Why not use a AAA or AA like the rest of us?
Then you can be sure and there will never be a question. You can use the wall power to recharge the battery.

I am also afraid that I am unable to follow what you are doing with the lighting a neon and also recharging... It is my fault. I have never made the slayer or kubikop self charger. I haven't even made the jesus self charger, and it is right here!
I am sure I would be able to follow along if I had.

sorry,
jeanna

IT IS ME... I CAN'T DESCRIBE ANYHTING...DON'T WORRY I WILL KEEP YOU INFORMED AFTER MY NEXT TESTS...OOOP sorry about the upper case.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on August 06, 2009, 10:44:55 PM

My max cap is still lighting the led in this circuite

and it has been off for a while.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on August 06, 2009, 10:51:11 PM

@all

please help me I just turned the dmm back on and the voltage keeps raising...I have never had any results like this...What am I doing wrong?

2.596

2.598

2.598

2.598

now it's lowering but for so few turns AND ...dam

Help out Jeanna..I will do a step by step. You have the same ingredients as me.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on August 06, 2009, 10:53:37 PM

wowo it's late

gn...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 06, 2009, 10:54:38 PM

Quote from: stprue on August 06, 2009, 10:44:55 PM
My max cap is still lighting the led in this circuite

and it has been off for a while.

GREAT WORK ST sounds like you maybe got into the ORBIT ... :) but im not sure ...

glad you came back ..... was wondering where you got to ... ;D

since thease electrodes get soooo hot so fast ... im mounting the center electrode above the ring ... and ill likely mount a small fan in the ring to kool the electrodes ...

at lest theas are the latest thoughts .. lol

i have some insolators cermanic for an electric fence i may use thease to hold the 8 electrodes cuz of the heat ... last thing i want is a melt down ... i can blow a few diodes ... but a melt down sux...

st if your tapping orbit wich you MUST BE it will oscolate the cap will fully drain and in the instance it is empty .. its full agin ...

sure i got this down too ... lol ;)

but i do not want to expose it some one else can ... :) if you learned all about it .. share it ...

i dont want to be a free engery discovery pig .... :D lol

it is darn kool i was useing small caps so i could watch it boggie on the AC side of the meter ... ;D

up and down up and down 4 ever ... bout 2 years ago almost ... now im not sure .... i count in coils ... :D bout 250 coils ago ... i had an orbit running for 2 days from the first zap into the cap ;D

nuff bout that from me ...

st i want to hear more about what you are doing ... bros

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on August 06, 2009, 11:08:10 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on August 06, 2009, 09:26:24 PM
@resonanceman

I am on the same boat. My transformer got brooken, I lost my solder iron and my power supply got shorted on an experiment today.

I am way behind now.
This hobby of mine is getting too expensive.

Sorry to hear you are burning stuff up too .

I hope you can hang in there

Your input is very valuable here .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 06, 2009, 11:08:24 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on August 06, 2009, 09:41:31 PM
....

The thing is that it lights the cfl brightly. The secret lies inside the turns of that transformer and the conections to the other pieces.

On one of those findings of yours. Have you not found for cassuality the transformer inside schematic?

The model is the "TDK TAD170"

Jesus

Are you looking for this?
I think this is the transformer Freezer used a while back. I always wondered why he made his light then left. Oh well, different styles.

Are you looking to find it? or are you wondering if I would try using it?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Yucca on August 06, 2009, 11:20:47 PM

Quote from: xee2 on August 06, 2009, 11:11:28 AM
@ Yucca

I suspect that it was not running at 1.5 volts. I think that your meter readings are ONLY THE VOLTAGE AND CURRENT THROUGH BIAS RESISTORS, TRANSISTOR IS NOT TURNING ON.

Hi xee2,

Rest assured it runs at 1.5V supply, my scope confirms this, as does the fact that it will run on a single AAA alkaline cell (after jump starting). And it oscillates and excites the neon.

The secret is that it will not start at 1.5V, It fires at 4V, but then you can wind down to 1.5V before oscillation mode collapses at anything lower.

This is one very handy aspect of a variable supply, many more exoticly wound JTs are built which appear dead, but they just need a kickstart and then you can wind them down into the lower voltage range.

I have studied it more carefully using my DSO and a resistive 1ohm shunt. here are some figures that are reasonably accurate:

supply voltage: 1.5V
true RMS input power: 2.4mW
power wasted in bias resistors: >=2.0mW
peak base voltage: 5.68V
oscillation frequency: 37.1kHz
HV out (with neon lit): oscillates 60V to 84V

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 06, 2009, 11:24:00 PM

Quote from: stprue on August 06, 2009, 10:51:11 PM
@all

please help me I just turned the dmm back on and the voltage keeps raising...I have never had any results like this...What am I doing wrong?...
...

2.598...

now it's lowering but for so few turns AND ...dam
Help out Jeanna..I will do a step by step. You have the same ingredients as me.

I think you have a lot more ingredients in your circuits than I do.

So, maybe if you start with a parts list we can see if I really do have the same ingredients as you.

I have noticed your numbers, but I can't figure out your circuits. Your photos are great, but they need labels if you are going to get me to follow you. That is asking a lot so I don't usually ask someone to do labels, but I am usually lost.

About the dmm dipping and changing values, we found this to be fairly normal behavior with these kind of experimental circuits. I'd say don't worry.

Get some sleep, and please make me a parts list, and we will see if I can replicate this. If that is what you mean by helping you??

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on August 06, 2009, 11:27:42 PM

Quote from: jeanna on August 06, 2009, 09:26:31 PM
@Gary,
I am sorry to hear about your last 4 daze... too bad about burning stuff up.

Next door, I am trying to use the pulses from the lower basic level joule thief to change the output of various combinations of leds and inductors and caps.

Recently, I had a segment of the circuit that I split into 2 segments. I was trying to be able to add lights and not have other parts of the circuit change. For the longest time/ many tries, I got nowhere, but then I added another inductor and spread the cap to span across 2 inductors. When I did that, the other part of the circuit did not effect the one I had just manipulated.

So, I think you are correct here.

As you are suggesting, I was trying to add caps in a line between inductors today too.
No luck so far. (The entire circuit went out today whenever I put on the new one. aargh!)
As with you, my progress has felt slow.
I make a success one day then go along for another 10 days with no more progress.

And, I think there is much more to be explored.
I am very glad to hear of your experiments.
Thank you for sharing your ideas.

Jeanna

I tried a few setups using caps between the inductors ....... so far nothing has worked ....

I remember something about Tesla adding caps to the circuit .......he said " always do this "
Do you remember that ? Do you remember how he was using them ?

It took most of the day but I finally got most of my stuff working again.
It turns out that I did not burn out my 3055 after all ....... I had taped a solder joint where the 3055 goes through the heatsink ....... it got hot enough to melt through the tape and short out .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 06, 2009, 11:55:46 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on August 06, 2009, 11:27:42 PM
Jeanna

I tried a few setups using caps between the inductors ....... so far nothing has worked ....

I remember something about Tesla adding caps to the circuit .......he said " always do this "
Do you remember that ? Do you remember how he was using them ?

I thought I would pick up that scribd book again. I didn't get to it today.
What I remember is he said it had to be tuned. He did not use the word "fiddly" but he said something of the sort.

QuoteIt took most of the day but I finally got most of my stuff working again.
It turns out that I did not burn out my 3055 after all .......

Oh that is terrific!
Now, if only the same could happen for jesus....

Well Gary, let me know what you find out. Maybe I will start to report my difficulties next door. If you want to talk about matching inductors and caps over there, we could do that. I think it is the main issue in keeping the ac/pulsed dc that way

Hmm,
I remember one of tesla's tricks was to add a cap to one secondary line but not the other. In my mind, this delays one of the pulses.
That is the reason I split the line. One secondary line was unchanged, then the other was split. This other one had identical pulses which were opposite to the pulses of the other (un-split) wire.
So, now if you can take a powerful pulse and delay it in part of the circuit, you can have a big voltage difference.

Doing it, however...
I did it one way but now I want to get another way.

It is in part what the hairpin lighting experiment was about. I think I need to read that lecture first thing tomorrow.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 07, 2009, 12:26:30 AM

Jeanna:

First, very nice work with all of your scope shots you posted. A lot of very well explained data there. (I am so far behind with all of the topics it is not even funny)

Next, the Tesla idea that you just mentioned is very fascinating. It sounds so much like him, so simple (once he shows us of course) and yet so complicated in the results. That might be a cheap and dirty way of establishing resonance in any circuit of that type, regardless of the other variables as long as everything was identical prior to adding the cap to the one side only. What a great concept. I think I can see how this might work.

Thanks for posting this here.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 07, 2009, 01:15:48 AM

@ nievesoliveras

Quote from: nievesoliveras on August 06, 2009, 09:41:31 PM
There is a very small circuit tha uses 5 volts to light a cfl.
I was checking it today and it only uses two transistors, three cpacitors, one resistor and a small transformer.

Can you post a link to the circuit diagram or post it here? I think that to be fair in comparing performance the total input power (amps times volts) should be compared with how bright the bulb gets. Maybe you have found a better performing circuit than the JT.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 07, 2009, 01:32:02 AM

@ Yucca

Quote from: Yucca on August 06, 2009, 11:20:47 PM
Hi xee2,

Rest assured it runs at 1.5V supply, my scope confirms this, as does the fact that it will run on a single AAA alkaline cell (after jump starting). And it oscillates and excites the neon.

The secret is that it will not start at 1.5V, It fires at 4V, but then you can wind down to 1.5V before oscillation mode collapses at anything lower.

This is one very handy aspect of a variable supply, many more exoticly wound JTs are built which appear dead, but they just need a kickstart and then you can wind them down into the lower voltage range.

I have studied it more carefully using my DSO and a resistive 1ohm shunt. here are some figures that are reasonably accurate:

supply voltage: 1.5V
true RMS input power: 2.4mW
power wasted in bias resistors: >=2.0mW
peak base voltage: 5.68V
oscillation frequency: 37.1kHz
HV out (with neon lit): oscillates 60V to 84V

Thanks for the info. I tried to duplicate your bias circuit using an AA battery and it would not oscillate. But I can see that once it is started at a higher voltage the voltage can be droped. I am very impressed that you can light a neon with less than 2 ma at 1.5 volts. The best I have done required 4 ma. Please keep reporting your results.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 07, 2009, 01:44:23 AM

@ Jesus:

Just to point out that, as shown in Jeanna's posting of the circuit board, it is a CCFL not a CFL. Wilbyinebriated made a nice light from a small beer keg and some CCFL bulbs. It is way back on here but you might pm him and see what circuit he used for it.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 07, 2009, 04:30:19 AM

Germanium transistor lights LED with only 0.25 volts. Should work with most earth batteries. LED gets brighter as voltage and current goes up.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Yucca on August 07, 2009, 09:35:32 AM

Nice circuit xee2, wow 0.25v, very sensitive transistor!

@all
here's an experiment one of you might like to try if you have a spare toroid and time permits.

Take a toroid and cut through it in one spot using a dremel with a cutoff wheel on it.

This will increase core reluctance and should give better performance on a JT because a JT is a simple flyback trafo. There should be considerably less core losses and more power out the windings for the same supply power.

Also it will also allow you to wind say 100+ turns of 32AWG as a third HV output coil easily because you can then just quickly wrap it off the spool inserting each new wrap through the gap without having to thread the whole length for each wrap.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 07, 2009, 10:57:50 AM

Quote from: Yucca on August 07, 2009, 09:35:32 AM
Nice circuit xee2, wow 0.25v, very sensitive transistor!

@all
here's an experiment one of you might like to try if you have a spare toroid and time permits.

Take a toroid and cut through it in one spot using a dremel with a cutoff wheel on it.

This will increase core reluctance and should give better performance on a JT because a JT is a simple flyback trafo. There should be considerably less core losses and more power out the windings for the same supply power.

Also it will also allow you to wind say 100+ turns of 32AWG as a third HV output coil easily because you can then just quickly wrap it off the spool inserting each new wrap through the gap without having to thread the whole length for each wrap.

NICE ... BROS ...

now im a halft to try it ... i got a cut off wheel some where round here .... ;D

it does sound much similar to the gap in the flyback core .... ;)

ist

im still trying to find something simple and cheep to hold my horz... electrode ... i wish i never scraped those wire clamps .... they would have been perfect!!! but it was copper run and i was broke ... O WELL...

something will come along ...

i have never tryed to cut a feroite core yet ... i thought it would be a real treat to cut ... but i dont i know never tryed .. i will today... ;D

ill use a goldmine 5 4 a buck ones ... 1"

ok i just did it ... 10 000 times easyer than i ever thought ... ;D

i used a drill as my dremel is blowen up ... i worked it a bit hard in the past .... ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on August 07, 2009, 11:10:14 AM

Quote from: jeanna on August 06, 2009, 11:08:24 PM
Are you looking for this?
I think this is the transformer Freezer used a while back. I always wondered why he made his light then left. Oh well, different styles.

Are you looking to find it? or are you wondering if I would try using it?

jeanna

I have one of these and it works great.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on August 07, 2009, 11:12:34 AM

Quote from: jeanna on August 06, 2009, 11:24:00 PM
I think you have a lot more ingredients in your circuits than I do.

So, maybe if you start with a parts list we can see if I really do have the same ingredients as you.

I have noticed your numbers, but I can't figure out your circuits. Your photos are great, but they need labels if you are going to get me to follow you. That is asking a lot so I don't usually ask someone to do labels, but I am usually lost.

About the dmm dipping and changing values, we found this to be fairly normal behavior with these kind of experimental circuits. I'd say don't worry.

Get some sleep, and please make me a parts list, and we will see if I can replicate this. If that is what you mean by helping you??

jeanna

Sure thing! and thanks for the help.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Yucca on August 07, 2009, 11:32:04 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on August 07, 2009, 10:57:50 AM
NICE ... BROS ...

now im a halft to try it ... i got a cut off wheel some where round here .... ;D

it does sound much similar to the gap in the flyback core .... ;)

ist

im still trying to find something simple and cheep to hold my horz... electrode ... i wish i never scraped those wire clamps .... they would have been perfect!!! but it was copper run and i was broke ... O WELL...

something will come along ...

i have never tryed to cut a feroite core yet ... i thought it would be a real treat to cut ... but i dont i know never tryed .. i will today... ;D

ill use a goldmine 5 4 a buck ones ... 1"

ok i just did it ... 10 000 times easyer than i ever thought ... ;D

i used a drill as my dremel is blowen up ... i worked it a bit hard in the past .... ;)

cool ist, post results if you find better efficiency with the airgapped core.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on August 07, 2009, 12:06:07 PM

@ist

Find a cd player in the optical box you will find really small neo magnet small enough to fit in the gap of the toroid .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 07, 2009, 12:10:22 PM

@ All:

Congratulations to everyone for our 9,000th post!!!

Everyone here has done some very excellent work and, just look how far we have come from the early days. This topic has also spawned some other topics where the JT circuit is an integral part of those devices, and the information from here has provided new opportunities for further exploration.

If not for the JT circuit, I would not be able to light all of the stuff that I can from my EER.

Anyway, just a quick thank you to everyone for all of the good attitudes and willingness to share information with everyone.

Thank you,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on August 07, 2009, 12:11:48 PM

how about winding a third winding around the entire diameter of the torroid to actively manage the core magnetic circuit. Just when your core saturates you fire off a pulse in the shield winding which desaturates it very quickly. Voltage on the output should go way out of sight. This is a trick I have seen done when a reed switch is up against relay laminations or motor laminations. By actively managing the core the collapse should be real fast.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 07, 2009, 12:19:18 PM

Quote from: Yucca on August 07, 2009, 09:35:32 AM
Nice circuit xee2, wow 0.25v, very sensitive transistor!

@all
here's an experiment one of you might like to try if you have a spare toroid and time permits.

Take a toroid and cut through it in one spot using a dremel with a cutoff wheel on it.

This will increase core reluctance and should give better performance on a JT because a JT is a simple flyback trafo. There should be considerably less core losses and more power out the windings for the same supply power.

Also it will also allow you to wind say 100+ turns of 32AWG as a third HV output coil easily because you can then just quickly wrap it off the spool inserting each new wrap through the gap without having to thread the whole length for each wrap.

Yucca:

This is a good idea. We discussed this somewhere a while back (about slicing the toroid) and someone posted a photo of the early radar units and it looked very similar to this approach.

If someone is going to attempt to slice a ferrite toroid, you will need diamond tooling as it is very hard. (about 9 on the Moh's scale of relative hardness, diamond being 10) We used to machine ferrite for wave guide applications and I wish I still had a few of those machines and tooling.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 07, 2009, 12:22:47 PM

IST:

Very nice job there! I just went back and saw your post. What tooling did you use to make that slice? That is a very nice cut, ferrite usually likes to chip along the sharp edges. Did you use a coolant of any kind?

Great job.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 07, 2009, 12:46:13 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on August 07, 2009, 12:06:07 PM
@ist

Find a cd player in the optical box you will find really small neo magnet small enough to fit in the gap of the toroid .

Mark

im all over it ;D i actually had a few really thin neos from ramma and the 24 led lights i bought they came with a thin neo ... it fits right in there :D ;D

bill

i actually grabbed the cordless drill and gaver sh!t ;D

no cooling took bout 3 min to grind through it with a dremmel cut off wheel .. ;D

THANKS YUCCA great idea!!

i just found an awesome fan for the arc reactor wich i drew a new pic for ... its just a lable pic ;)

btw 814 means PEACE TO BOTH SIDES WILLIAM IS BALLANCEING IT ! THE 8 IS ACTUALLY AN INFINITY SIGN SHOWING BALLANCE .. I CAN ADD MORE TO THE LABEL LOGO .. BUT THE TIME FOR THAT IS NOT RIGHT ... ;D

VV THIS MEANS PEACE X 2 ;)
--------
AND 14 REPRESENTS +7 + 7-

I COULD GO ON AND ON BUT ... LETS GO SLOW ;D

THERE NOT QUITE RIPE ENOUGH YET .... :)

VERRY SOON THO .....

W

sorry bout all the pics but .... are thos orbs in my pics as i took a few at diffrent times ... and posisions ... i just noticed them ... so ill post the pics with them in them as i do have other pics that they are not in ..... hummmm i think they must be a reflection from something .. hey i have been wrong many times b4 tho ...

yikes... this thing is gonna ripp.... lol if we apply 1.5 vdc then colapse that use the colapse to manipulate the neo

yikes ... ;D

its gonna get crazy now i can cut ferroite cores ... core coil neo core coil neo ...

beleave me i know im nuts .... ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 07, 2009, 01:49:10 PM

@ innovation_station

I think using a magnet degrades performance, but if you are going to use one in the slot you should put some kind of insulator (electrical tape should work) on at least one side of the magnet so that you are not shorting across the gap since that would allow eddy currents to flow and defeat the advantage of having the gap.

(How is that for a run on sentenace?)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on August 07, 2009, 02:00:10 PM

@all

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on August 07, 2009, 02:06:31 PM

@all

I included a download in this post , on multiple core transformer , really interesting ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 07, 2009, 02:10:13 PM

i have just enough room for some paper in between the magnet ...

it is a tiny bit slopply probally how it was suspoto be ... knowing how things work ... ;D it always seems to be the case ... just when you think you over did it ... and it was a mistake to the original intenction .. it turns out to be just perfect!!

funny how this uni works ...

i could tell you a storry all about my ufo controller and why the buttons as not where i originally designed them to be .... ;D but its more fun if i leave it a riddle ...

i by accident drilled the last hole of the off and on switches .... in the wrong place ... but right after i did it ... i realized how kool it was ;D

peace all !!

W

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Yucca on August 07, 2009, 02:19:57 PM

Quote from: xee2 on August 07, 2009, 01:49:10 PM
@ innovation_station

I think using a magnet degrades performance, but if you are going to use one in the slot you should put some kind of insulator (electrical tape should work) on at least one side of the magnet so that you are not shorting across the gap since that would allow eddy currents to flow and defeat the advantage of having the gap.

(How is that for a run on sentenace?)

good idea, wrap the neo in tape before inserting. also because JT is DC biased core operation try both neo polarity configs.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on August 07, 2009, 02:55:42 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on August 07, 2009, 02:00:10 PM
@all

Mk

Great find

:)

This could greatly amplify what we have been getting from our JTs

To explain what I think is going on with this circuit
I don;t have a link , but I saw a video years ago of a guy doing some experments with some magnets and a piece of steel .

he put a large magnet on the end of the iron.
he was then able to pick up another piece iron on the end of the iron opposite the magnet.
he then put a small magnet on the side of the first piece of iron . the piece of iron that he was being lifted fell
A small magnetic field at right angles to a larger magnetic field can block the larger field

If we used a JT to power the small coils on each side of the magnet we should be able to control the full power of the magnets with very little input energy

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on August 07, 2009, 03:09:58 PM

@all

A picture of my rodin jt ...

The twisted pair goes to positive battery rail (24 gauge bell wire), with a 12 turn 22 gauge pickup coil i get 70 volts .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on August 07, 2009, 03:11:19 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on August 07, 2009, 02:06:31 PM
@all

I included a download in this post , on multiple core transformer , really interesting ...

Thanks for the link

it answers some questions

I played with ideas like that a while ago ...... what I came up with worked kind of like variant 4 .... it would be killed by tapping any of the cores

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 07, 2009, 03:28:49 PM

verry nice coil mk1..

i did notice when i reverse polarity on the neo .. it pops into a great place all by its self .. and if i reverse the polarity of the neo it is a little off center ... hummmm

1 way it fits on its own this seams natural to me the other it wants to move from the center of the neo ...

could be that my angles are not just perfect on the cut

ist!

so many ways to play ... but it all comes back to the off and on ... aka THE KICK ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on August 07, 2009, 03:39:50 PM

Quote from: jeanna on August 06, 2009, 11:08:24 PM
Are you looking for this?
I think this is the transformer Freezer used a while back. I always wondered why he made his light then left. Oh well, different styles.

Are you looking to find it? or are you wondering if I would try using it?

jeanna

I bought it last year, but it was now that I put it to work and I got very impressed on the bright output of the cfl.
I tried to run it with a joule thief using the technique you taught me to get leds lighting and I made the toroid to give 15 volt on the pickup coil and tried to run the tad170.
The voltage on the meter dropped to about 1 volt.
I increased turns and kept increasing the voltage to 120 volts according to my DMM.
I connected the circuit again and the voltage dropped again to about 2 volts and the circuit did not work.
I added a 2200uf 50v capacitor to the rectifier and tried again.
The spike produced by the capacitor burnt the 2 transistors of the tad170.
I began to repair the tad170 with a writing in wood iron I have and while I was repairing the circuit it seems that I left the power supply on and the two wires with alligators on them got together for a long time, that is why I dont have a power supply now.

I would like to learn how that tad170 transformer works on the inside, because it turns a cfl on brightly an with just a few parts, that I asked you if you knew about its windings, because you are always experimenting with transformers, earth batteries and wires.

Maybe I did not answer your question with all these words I wrote here.

Quote from: xee2 on August 07, 2009, 01:15:48 AM
@ nievesoliveras

Can you post a link to the circuit diagram or post it here? I think that to be fair in comparing performance the total input power (amps times volts) should be compared with how bright the bulb gets. Maybe you have found a better performing circuit than the JT.

I dont have the circuit. It is the Tdk Tad170 that @jeanna posted here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg195824#msg195824

Quote from: Pirate88179 on August 07, 2009, 01:44:23 AM
@ Jesus:

Just to point out that, as shown in Jeanna's posting of the circuit board, it is a CCFL not a CFL. Wilbyinebriated made a nice light from a small beer keg and some CCFL bulbs. It is way back on here but you might pm him and see what circuit he used for it.

Bill

The one I lighted is a gutted screw like cfl bulb. Maybe it is called ccfl instead.
What I am interested is on getting the way the Tad170 transformer is winded because it is very powerful.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Yucca on August 07, 2009, 03:49:11 PM

playing with my flyback I seem to be measuring slight OU measuring Pin and Pout with low inductive resistor and a digital storage scope when operating in very low power mode, COP appears to be approximately 1.5? This will be seen as nonsense and hot air unless I can close the loop. How to downconvert to selfrun? I will set about making a switched capacitance power module to get back down to 4V from 1kV, this will incur maybe 10% loss to drive said circuit, but if what I am seeing is true then it should slefrun after a kickstart, it would be no where near 1W excess so the OU prize will be out of reach, more like 10mW excess (if it works). My only worry is that inductuve aspects of the 1ohm shunt resistor is skewing power measurement? but I will see, it is damned efficient if nothing else.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 07, 2009, 03:51:08 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on August 07, 2009, 02:06:31 PM
@all

I included a download in this post , on multiple core transformer , really interesting ...

hmmm
Thank you Mark,

this really is interesting.
I was trying things yesterday and for the last 2 weeks.
I think I got to about page 4, but I didn't know what it was.

Thank you, now I know where to go next!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 07, 2009, 04:02:21 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on August 07, 2009, 03:39:50 PM
I bought it last year,
...

I would like to learn how that tad170 transformer works on the inside, because it turns a cfl on brightly an with just a few parts, that I asked you if you knew about its windings, because you are always experimenting with transformers, earth batteries and wires.

...

I dont have the circuit. It is the Tdk Tad170 ...

Jesus

OK
Since you bought it last year you know that it came from the goldmine. so that is answered.

I believe freezer would know.
He may have even answered the question of the transformer. He used it to light a fluoro in late december or ealry january. He provided some kind of schematic, but ... it is way back there.

I understand what happened to you.

The joule thief produces an ac.pulsed dc output.
It will not ever be a good input for another joule thief or similar transformer unless it is rectified. As you found out once rectified it acts like a battery input with very high voltage. When that is run through another amplifier it will melt things if they are too close!

thank you for sharing these results,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on August 07, 2009, 06:03:18 PM

@all

Guess who got a camera ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on August 07, 2009, 06:10:46 PM

@all

Yep !

On top you see 4 hair clipper coils
Then some mk coils , tricycle , rodin , micro , green gem , one magnet bedini jt motor .

Have fun !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 07, 2009, 06:35:45 PM

awesome mk1

glad you got a cam!!!! 8)

hey i found a 19vdc adaptor at 500 ma .... you bet neo zap arcer still works just not as wild like

still gets darn hot fast ... never tryed the diodes yet .. but the rods get hot .... and i get a much smaller flash of light but it is there and fast as ever

i need to find a better material than carbon ... i think it will work well for 1 electrode ... but im not sure what for the other

i will try copper and alum at some point ... and verious combos there of ...

soon

ist!

still trying to find all the insolators ...

what are those motors out of mk1? i like those coils ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on August 07, 2009, 06:42:14 PM

@ist

Printer step motor ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 07, 2009, 06:49:50 PM

JT will drive ignition coil. There must be at least 400 volts out since it lights tube. But I am unwilling to risk damaging voltmeter to try and measure the output voltage.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 07, 2009, 07:26:58 PM

Ignition coil lights both electrodes of neon. Therefore must have AC output. Seems strange.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on August 07, 2009, 07:39:49 PM

Quote from: xee2 on August 07, 2009, 07:26:58 PM
Ignition coil lights both electrodes of neon. Therefore must have AC output. Seems strange.

That is good @xee2 !

I see on your schematic that you are connecting the Fluorescent between the positive and the high voltage, I think that it should work better if it is connected between the hight voltage and the negative that goes to the transistors emitter.

I could be wrong though.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 07, 2009, 07:48:37 PM

MK1:

Nice photos man! I am glad you got a cam. Wow, look at all that cool stuff. I want to come play at your place. Very nice collection over there.

Yucca:

Please keep us posted on this circuit, it really sounds promising. Perhaps you can close the loop? I hope so...and then...scale it up and the OU prize will be yours. If not, as you said, a very efficient circuit and those are very useful too. Nice work.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on August 07, 2009, 07:51:53 PM

I mean something like this.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 07, 2009, 07:56:32 PM

Jesus:

Again, just so you know, a CCFL is not the same as a CFL. What you just described was a CFL. (Google can explain the difference better than I can) If you want to light a CFL, that is cool but a Fuji will do that as well as many of the other designs here by MK1 and Xee2 and Gadgetmall and Jeanna. (There may be others, sorry if I left you out)

CCFL= Cold Cathode Flourescent Lamps.

I hope this helps.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 07, 2009, 08:29:56 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on August 07, 2009, 07:56:32 PM
Jesus:

Again, just so you know, a CCFL is not the same as a CFL. What you just described was a CFL. (Google can explain the difference better than I can) If you want to light a CFL, that is cool but a Fuji will do that as well as many of the other designs here by MK1 and Xee2 and Gadgetmall and Jeanna. (There may be others, sorry if I left you out)

CCFL= Cold Cathode Flourescent Lamps.

I hope this helps.

Bill

i have some here ccfl i never knew that is what it ment ... lol :D

thease were sent to me to make em lite but ... im just gonna return to sender on that one .... lol

i told him to buy a few super caps ... but noooooo ...

so nooooooo!!!!! ;)

its just a boring npn pnp circuit .... bla bla ... the guy that designed the damm thing probally did not know what it was he was building ..... pitty him ....

ist!

FLASH LIGHTS ..... YOU WANT..... WHEN I HAVE ARC REACTORS PLASMA BALL GENERATORS ... LOL

UFO CONTROLLERS TPUS SELF RUNING MOTORS HIGH SPEED TURBINES ...

BLA BLA ... AND BOXES UPON BOXES OF OTHER THINGS ....

AND THE BEST YOU CAN DO IS A FLASHLIGHT ...

HOG WASH ....

LONGER YOU ALL WATE TO MAKE ME A DEAL THE MORE I SHARE

WATE A MIN I HAVE IT ALMOST ALL SEWED UP ... ALMOST ... ;)

LOL

WE GOING TO GO CRYSTAL NEXT SHALL I SEW UP THE PEIZEO TOO!

HEY WHY NOT ... THAN YOU HONESTLLY HAVE NO CHOOISE LEFT ... 8)

WHOS THE BOY YOU GONNA COME SEE!?

IST! ;D ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 07, 2009, 09:50:27 PM

@ All:

I love Youtube. I just received this comment on my JT and supercaps effects video:

"uï»¿ suck, fucking fake"

The video can be found here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD77lY9xG6k

This video was just a simple experiment with a regular run-of-the-mill JT and supercap. I obviously did not invent this and many have replicated it and it was not fake.

Oh well, just thought I would share a reply from one of my many fans out there.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 07, 2009, 10:37:54 PM

Bill,
I was told by youtube that the link was wrong.
Please recheck it!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 07, 2009, 10:43:12 PM

Jeanna:

Thanks. I reloaded the link and it works now. Same link so, I have no idea what happened but, thanks for telling me.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 07, 2009, 11:40:03 PM

@ nievesoliveras

Quote from: nievesoliveras on August 07, 2009, 07:51:53 PM
I mean something like this.

I think that would damage transistors.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 07, 2009, 11:50:34 PM

@ Pirate88179

Nice video. Is the transistor case connected to the collector? If so (maybe even if not), you might try adding a small capacitor (100 pF) from collector to emitter and see if LED stays lit longer. That does sometimes increase brightness since it stores part of energy in short pulses.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 07, 2009, 11:52:08 PM

@ all

The base resistor in my last circuit was actually 100 ohms, not 500 ohms.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 08, 2009, 12:03:19 AM

Quote from: xee2 on August 07, 2009, 11:50:34 PM
@ Pirate88179

Nice video. Is the transistor case connected to the collector? If so (maybe even if not), you might try adding a small capacitor (100 pF) from collector to emitter and see if LED stays lit longer. That does sometimes increase brightness since it stores part of energy in short pulses.

Xee2:

Thank you. Not that I know of. I just stuck the 2N3904 into the breadboard along with the other components you saw. I just figured, with my lack of real knowledge, that my body might somehow be drawing the last of the supers cap energy out. As you saw, I found this quite by accident. (as always seems to happen with me)
I can try adding the cap you mentioned to see what happens. This was a while ago and I have lit more leds for a longer time with the same set-up. (Pre-earth battery tests) I am always willing to try anything if it might give more light longer.

Thanks for your input on this.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 08, 2009, 12:16:02 AM

Xee2,
I kind of follow having the second transistor in your circuit. It is an amplifier circuit, I think? But I just cannot get why the other one.
Is it protection?
I do not understand the purpose. Would you please explain it?

thank you,

jeanna

BTW,
You might lower the bifilar turns.
I found with that medium that between 6 and 7 turns gave me the best results.

j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 08, 2009, 12:19:59 AM

im trying to find the good spark gap material ...

for hot gaps ...

not much luck this gap must be close if not touching .... errr what a pain

i have tryed a few diffrent materials ...

best is carbon ... but ... it sticks in time so im thinking of rotateing the damm thing with a fan and the fan motor ... if i spinn the carbon rod .. like it was in a drill ... it will likely work better ...

but now thats a bunch more junk and will probally melt down ....

hummmmmm

anyone ever use nano crystal dust .. on the gaps ...

i have not tryed it but ... i think some in the past have played with it ....

i tryed bronze welding rod ... wow for a spark ... tryed mig welding wire copper coated ....

red hot in seconds

where can a dude find some tunston .... cheep like free... and it needs to be thicker than light bulb filiment ...

have not tryed alum yet ...

might try that next

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 08, 2009, 12:35:28 AM

@ innovation_station

Quote from: innovation_station on August 08, 2009, 12:19:59 AM
im trying to find the good spark gap material ...

Would a spark plug work?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 08, 2009, 12:44:30 AM

Quote from: xee2 on August 08, 2009, 12:35:28 AM
@ innovation_station

Would a spark plug work?

hummmmm

good question i think the darn thing will get super hot but ... its already designed for heat ...

xee2 your wild ... i must try this .... as sheesh i can even set it for the gap with the fuller gage ...

thanks alot bros ....

congrats on the NEON dubble electrode lighting .. btw...

ist!

this will be slick if i can get those to work out .....

now the gears are spinning in the mhz range ... ;D or even beond 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 08, 2009, 01:02:39 AM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on August 08, 2009, 12:16:02 AM
I do not understand the purpose. Would you please explain it?

The two MJE13007 transistors are just switches. The idea of using two is to lower the on resistance like when you put two resistors in parallel.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 08, 2009, 02:44:28 AM

Another JT circuit with ignition coil. It does not work very well either. But, it does put out over 400 volts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on August 08, 2009, 12:38:15 PM

xee 2

Checkout capacitor discharge ignition systems used on autos and what the guys have been doing with water as fuel scource experiments. Gotuluc is deep into this. Seems when they feed water into a plazma the water goes to h2 and 02 not by heating but by ripping it apart with a highly ionized field flow. Not even sure if it combusts but it certainly does expand it's field of influence very quickly. I did a little of this with a copper coil and a drop of water in a microwave oven. My wife still reminds me of this experiment when the copper melted down and burnt the lining of the microwave.
Some white sparks off the top of the copper coil until the steam vapor hit it. Then the whole microwave oven turns into a light show. Only problem is that once the copper gets too heated by the microwaves the end melts and the shows over. Probably a good thing.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on August 08, 2009, 02:07:00 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on August 08, 2009, 12:19:59 AM

where can a dude find some tunston .... cheep like free... and it needs to be thicker than light bulb filiment ...

IST

A phone call and a short drive should get you a tungston electrode .........unless you live right in the middle of nowhere .
Just look in the phone book for welding supplys

TIG welders use tungston electrodes

here is a link .........not sure if this is a good price ,.
http://store.cyberweld.com/wetuel.html

Not free ........but if you can find a place that will sell you 1 or 2 it will be pretty close to free .
I would try to avoid the throiated. As I understand it these have something radioactive added ......probably not enough to do any real damage .......but I avoid anything radioactive whenever I can.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 08, 2009, 04:34:36 PM

thank you GARY!!!

awesome stuff and not that much money.. i have found it to be a pain in the a$$ to let the thing run wild as i want it to but this will change ...

;D

for now im a run it in 2 freqs ... to be able to work with what i have currently

most of my stuff has been moved so im working with what i have found ..

but you bet when i can afford the proper materials that will allow it to rippppp ill buy em ;D ;D 8)

till then im building some really kool spark gaps

xee2 i tryed a spark plug ... did not work so well

but the plugg was old and was probally worn out ill have to try a few diffrent ones b4 i say that it will or wont work for me ..

would be totally kool if it did tho ;D

it would be 1 wild unit 8)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 08, 2009, 10:36:28 PM

Hi everybody,
I have begun a series of videos about my 2 tier circuit.
This one is an introduction to the unit I am using.
It is basically an introduction to the primary... the basic joule thief part of the circuit..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4IMgDRGpHE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4IMgDRGpHE)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 09, 2009, 03:14:02 AM

@ all

I finally realized why the ignition coils were not working better. The primary resistance is 1.4 ohms for a few hundred turns of wire. So there must be a resistor in the primary to limit battery current. So most of the power going into the primary is being wasted heating the resistor instead of generating a magnetic field.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 09, 2009, 02:05:36 PM

@ Jeanna:

Excellent video! I am looking forward to the next part. Very good job. You explain it so even I can understand what you are doing. Very good production too.

@ All:

I had this crazy idea last night and i am thinking of giving it a try. I want to try a spark gap on my EER-ultracap-Fuji circuit to see if I can get any sparks.
Is 350-400 volts enough to generate a small spark over say.... about .003" gap? If I used very fine wire? If it is, should I stick a camera flash cap (300 volt) between the Fuji and the spark gap?

If that is not enough volts, I could possible wire a trigger coil into the circuit which should mean a few thousand volts I believe.

I just thought it would be cool to see this at night but I don't know if I can make it work or not.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on August 09, 2009, 02:21:51 PM

@xee

I don't think 1.4 , is indicative of a resistor , but that is just me ...

I hope this helps , but i think you already know ... Maybe try the ground post from the primary.

The high voltage is usually is a negative one . One of the primary tap is also the secondary input , i guess you checked it ?

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 09, 2009, 02:53:08 PM

@ Pirate88179

Quote from: Pirate88179 on August 09, 2009, 02:05:36 PM
Is 350-400 volts enough to generate a small spark over say.... about .003" gap?

300 volts in the Fugi 64 uF capacitors make a good size spark. But I do not think you can put 300 volts into your supercaps.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 09, 2009, 04:05:50 PM

OK everybody,
I just made another video about the Radiant Joule thief.
I used the Biggo joule thief set with 240T MK1 type secondary, and 2 different Stubblefield generators. (the 3rd from the last video is in the ground!) I show the fluoro tube lit as well, but having only 2 hands and needing 3 to hold the camera and 2 to turn on the tube, I had to get it lit offstage, as it were.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjgldKgRU9w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjgldKgRU9w)

@Bill,
Thanks. I actually thought that video was unclear both visually and in meaning, so I am glad to hear I was wrong.

About the spark needing 300v.
I was playing with the nongalvanic stubblefield last year. I was putting a battery through it and turning on a motor which would fill a cap and run ever so long.....
Often, I saw a spark as I approached the battery terminal for another hit. I doubt I even had 300v. Probably 150max.

@Xee2,
The fact is that the joule thief is lousy replacement for a battery in a system that needs one.
I suspect you are having a poor response for this reason, however, you may be exactly correct about the resistor.

Here is why...
When I bought my ultra cheap ignition coil the salesman wanted me to understand that this one did not come with the resistor which is a customary part of most ig coils. This one I was buying, being very cheap did not come with it and for $5 more, I could buy one.
My guess is that yours came with one.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 09, 2009, 05:20:01 PM

Jeanna:

Thanks for your reply. The Fuji is downstream from the ultracap and the camera cap would be added after that, so I would not attempt to put that much voltage through any of my supercaps.

From what you say, it sounds like a good experiment to try, so I will. What could go wrong? ??? Ha ha.

Thank you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 09, 2009, 05:37:54 PM

@ Mk1

The + pin is the coil ground. The HV is between center pin and + pin.

I think so at least. I do not want to put high voltage across oter components. They may fry.

But, since there seems to be a resistor in the primary I do not plan to do any more testing with it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on August 09, 2009, 06:12:39 PM

MORE FREE INFO YOUTUBE FreeEnergyInfo
http://www.youtube.com/user/FreeEnergyInfo

http://www.perendev-power.ru/NET-Journal_Russian_version_interview.pdf
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Wang_Shum_Ho_Generator
http://www.efir.com.ua/tmp/motk1.pdf

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Electromagnetic
http://www.wilhoit-az.com/mark/free_energy/MAllen7424.php
http://alexfrolov.narod.ru/rusbogomolov.html
http://alexfrolov.narod.ru/rusbogomolov.html
http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/PJKBook.html
http://www.emanator.demon.co.uk/bigclive/joule.htm
http://www.bigclive.com/joule.htm
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/3609-big-joule-theif-11.html
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Magnet_Motors
http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/index.html
http://www.uawinfo.com/UAWINFO_HHO_GAS/uawinfo1.htm
http://www.uawinfo.com/UAWINFO_HHO_GAS/1568%20pdf/1586%20pdf%20Book.pdf
http://radosvet.net/politikos/finans/3154-bestoplivnyje-generatory-firmy-proizvoditeli.html
http://radosvet.net/news/952-magnitnyjj-dvigatel-baumana.html
http://www.fdp.nu/default_cached.html
http://www.fdp.nu/perendev/default.asp
http://www.akoil.de/index.php?lang=en
http://cycclone.com/
http://www.searlsolution.com/
http://www.energospace.ru/2008/02/12/jelektromagnitnyjj-dvigatel.html

Kapanadze

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Kapanadze_Free_Energy_Generator#Photos
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7679.0
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7679msg189076#msg189076
http://www.hvlabs.hu/zpe/Gruz/
http://www.matri-x.ru/forum/index.php
http://www.greenvaltd.com/ru/video.html
http://www.hvlabs.hu/zpe/Gruz/index.pdf
http://www.hvlabs.hu/zpe/Gruz/kak_rabotaet_Kapanadze.doc

http://ru.thefreedictionary.com/
http://www.tmzenerji.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wV560xfYSJ0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fc0J6ZNpybM
http://www.energeticforum.com/
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/
http://merlib.org/aggregator/sources
http://www.elektronika.lt/theory/theme/159/121/
http://lt.diplodocs.com/ / prekiu instrukcijos /
http://empyros.org/?j=id_&avt=vsk&sod=019
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7679.msg189060#msg189060
http://arena.net.ua/econom/2221.html

http://radosvet.net/file/video/3225-ezdim-na-vode.html

aramenko

http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/afep01.htm
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/fep01.htm
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/afep012.htm
http://my.mail.ru/community/iwalushen/journal
vitanar.pochta.ru/autors/korneev6.htm
http://www.astrolab.ru/cgi-bin/manager2.cgi?id=40&num=1378
www.sciteclibrary.ru/rus/catalog/pages/3095.htm
www.skif.biz/index.php?name=Pages&op=page&pid=13
www.skif.biz
http://www.vitanar.hotmail.ru/AVR/AVR.htm
http://www.trinitas.ru/rus/doc/0231/008a/02310053.htm
http://www.keelynet.com/energy/prentice.htm
http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Smith.pdf

http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Combine.pdf
http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/pdf/9708033.pdf
http://prs-rover.narod.ru/biblitek/motovilo/motov1.djvu
http://prs-rover.narod.ru/biblitek/bibliotk.html
http://prs-rover.narod.ru/biblitek/book6.html
http://dc87.4shared.com/download/118160052/ebbe49c6/_Ebook__The_Free_Energy_Secrets_Of_Cold_Electricity_-.pdf

julie tief
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.310
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6942

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6309.0
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.8860
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7842

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6942.160

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on August 09, 2009, 06:46:40 PM

Quote from: jeanna on August 09, 2009, 04:05:50 PM
OK everybody,
I just made another video about the Radiant Joule thief.
I used the Biggo joule thief set with 240T MK1 type secondary, and 2 different Stubblefield generators. (the 3rd from the last video is in the ground!) I show the fluoro tube lit as well, but having only 2 hands and needing 3 to hold the camera and 2 to turn on the tube, I had to get it lit offstage, as it were.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjgldKgRU9w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjgldKgRU9w)

jeanna

Great videos Jeanna. How is your StubGen made?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 09, 2009, 07:09:57 PM

Quote from: stprue on August 09, 2009, 06:46:40 PM
Great videos Jeanna. How is your StubGen made?

Thanks,

As far as winding them goes, I wound them as close as I could to the patent.

Basically,
6 rows 60 turns each row 30 per wire on each row. Start and end at the top.

[I just answered more fully and I will put the details on Bills stubblefield speculations page.]
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=4455.msg196396#msg196396 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=4455.msg196396#msg196396)
see you there!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on August 09, 2009, 07:22:23 PM

@FreeEnergyInfo
Good posting with respect to Reply #9053.

Reminds me of my thread:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7832.0

If you can find more, all the better.

--Lee
the_big_m_in_ok

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 09, 2009, 09:56:38 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on August 09, 2009, 04:05:50 PM
When I bought my ultra cheap ignition coil the salesman wanted me to understand that this one did not come with the resistor which is a customary part of most ig coils. This one I was buying, being very cheap did not come with it and for $5 more, I could buy one.
My guess is that yours came with one.

Hmmmm. What is the resistance between the two screw connectors on your coil? Mine is 1.4 ohms. A hundred feet of wire is about 0.1 ohms.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 09, 2009, 11:58:07 PM

Quote from: xee2 on August 09, 2009, 09:56:38 PM
@ jeanna

Hmmmm. What is the resistance between the two screw connectors on your coil?

2.2 ohm and
11.6KOhms to the center connector from either screw

QuoteMine is 1.4 ohms.

I guess you don't have a resistor either.

jeanna

======
@All,

On another subject...
Here is a link to part 2 explanation of my JT with secondary.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tVlCJiuWH4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tVlCJiuWH4)

HeHe, I just went to get the link address and I see Bill has already commented!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 10, 2009, 12:31:40 AM

Jeanna:

Yes I did. Trust me, I know how much work and effort goes into making this type of video....it ain't easy. You are doing a really great job on yours. Man, when you said those LEDS were bright, you were not kidding! Great work Jeanna!

I figured out a long time ago that many folks here are not Youtube members but they can still view the videos but they can't rate them or comment upon them. so, don't ever wonder why you get a lot of views but possibly few comments or ratings. This took me a while to figure out. Even my friends call me and say ...hey, nice video. I ask if they left a comment and, of course, they can't because they didn't sign up. Oh well.

Very good video series Jeanna. I am looking forward to seeing more.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 10, 2009, 03:06:20 AM

@ all

A VERY low voltage low power JT. Only requires 0.167 volts at 6 mA to light LED dimly (see photo of LED lighting at 0.167 volts). Gets brighter as voltage increases. Using lower base resistance will also increase brightness.

EDIT: corrected diagram

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 10, 2009, 04:02:52 AM

@ all

The germanium JT circuit should stay lit for 13 minutes using two 10 F super caps in parallel (20 F) charged to 1.4 volts. This means that the circuit will rum at voltages even lower than 0.167 volts. Stays lit about 11 seconds if 3 volt battery is used (two AA batteries).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 10, 2009, 10:35:41 AM

XEE2:

Nice circuits. Do you have a source for the germanium transistors? I have one that Al sent to me but I would like to get more. Are all transistors with that number germanium, or do you have to specifically look for germanium?

Thanks,

BIll

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 10, 2009, 11:21:46 AM

@ Pirate88179

Quote from: Pirate88179 on August 10, 2009, 10:35:41 AM
Are all transistors with that number germanium, or do you have to specifically look for germanium?

All 2N4077 transistors are germanium. I bought mine for 95 cents each. But the store does not do mail orders unless over $25. If you search web you will find several sources. Mine do not say who made them but they have a large F on them.

This circuit should run for over a day with your 600 F supercaps charged to 2.7 volts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 10, 2009, 12:40:49 PM

@all

Reducing base resistor value did not increase LED brightness. But it did allow circuit to run at an even lower voltage of 0.144 volts.

EDIT: Using 10 ohm base resistor also shortens time circuit will run on super cap. Increasing base resistor from 50 ohms to 500 ohms doubles time circuit runs using 3 volt battery.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 10, 2009, 01:03:00 PM

Xee2:

Thank you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on August 10, 2009, 02:44:49 PM

Quote from: the_big_m_in_ok on August 09, 2009, 07:22:23 PM
@FreeEnergyInfo
Good posting with respect to Reply #9053.

Reminds me of my thread:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7832.0

If you can find more, all the better.
ok
ok
ok

--Lee
the_big_m_in_ok

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 10, 2009, 04:09:24 PM

Hi everybody,

Bill just invited me to post this pic here as well as the stub speculations page.
Thank you, Bill. I agree it is relevant in both places.

This is a drawing .. schematic of the Radiant joule thief and how not connected the 2 parts are.!!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on August 10, 2009, 04:16:01 PM

Quote from: jeanna on August 10, 2009, 04:09:24 PM
Hi everybody,

Bill just invited me to post this pic here as well as the stub speculations page.
Thank you, Bill. I agree it is relevant in both places.

This is a drawing .. schematic of the Radiant joule thief and how not connected the 2 parts are.!!

jeanna

Jeanna have you tried holding a neo mag near it? The stub gen that is! maybe both at the same time!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 10, 2009, 04:19:52 PM

Quote from: stprue on August 10, 2009, 04:16:01 PM
Jeanna have you tried holding a neo mag near it?

Probably not, but what are you asking?

Near what?
Ah you answered my Q.

I need to snap a neo onto the end of the tube to start it, and I did that yesterday. So, except for that, I have not. Well not this year with the radiant experiments.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on August 10, 2009, 04:29:15 PM

Ð ÐµÐ·Ð¾Ð½Ð°Ð½Ñ Ð§ÐµÑ€Ð½ÐµÑ†ÐºÐ¾Ð³Ð¾
http://www.freelook.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=35&Itemid=293
http://www.freelook.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=37&Itemid=293

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 10, 2009, 04:32:54 PM

@ jeanna

Nice drawing.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 10, 2009, 04:37:01 PM

@ all

Probably no one is really interested, but here is a video (attached) of the LED running off of the 0.047 F capacitor and going out. I think it runs pretty long for such a small capacitor. The video is from the time the battery is removed until the LED goes out.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on August 10, 2009, 04:50:49 PM

Ð"ÐµÐ½ÐµÑ€Ð°Ñ,Ð¾Ñ€ ÑÐ»ÐµÐºÑ,Ñ€Ð¾ÑÐ½ÐµÑ€Ð³Ð¸Ð¸ Ð¿Ð¾ ÑÑ...ÐµÐ¼Ðµ Ð"Ñ€Ð°Ð¼Ð¼Ð°
(Ð¤-Ð¼Ð°ÑˆÐ¸Ð½Ð° Ð¤Ñ€Ð¾Ð»Ð¾Ð²Ð°)
http://www.freelook.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=40&Itemid=293

(Not by Mr. Frolov in this case, I just use this picture for reference, the source wants to stay anonymous, until his patent application is done and university verification tests will be done)
The claims are: 1200 Watts coil out with about 1076.4 Watts in into the driving motor at 3450 RPM. 8 amps @117volts at noload 9.2 amps @117 volts at full load
The output of about 1200 Watts is already a total overunity operation!
As they just increase the input power by about 140 Watts only between idle and load state and they get 1200 Watts output it seems indeed a case, where Lenz law is violated ! (the driving motor is inefficient in this case)
This generator also has NO motor effect ! If you supply current to the coil, the permanent magnet in the center will not rotate, cause the flux just stays inside the toroid core! There you can see, that the back drag does not influence the mechanical rotation of the magnet !
Regards, Stefan.
--
Hartmann Multimedia Service,
Dipl. In. Stefan Hartmann, Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin,Germany
Tel: +49 30 345 00 497, FAX: +49 30 345 00 498
email: harti@harti.com info@ccard.net
http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 10, 2009, 04:53:37 PM

Was that a super cap, xee2?

I think what is interesting about those is that they charge much faster than they discharge.
Is that not supposed to be equal?

Nice green light. Too bad the picture doesn't show anything of the actual circuit that did it.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 10, 2009, 04:56:21 PM

Quote from: FreeEnergyInfo on August 10, 2009, 04:50:49 PM
Ð"ÐµÐ½ÐµÑ€Ð°Ñ,Ð¾Ñ€ ÑÐ»ÐµÐºÑ,Ñ€Ð¾ÑÐ½ÐµÑ€Ð³Ð¸Ð¸ Ð¿Ð¾ ÑÑ...ÐµÐ¼Ðµ Ð"Ñ€Ð°Ð¼Ð¼Ð°
(Ð¤-Ð¼Ð°ÑˆÐ¸Ð½Ð° Ð¤Ñ€Ð¾Ð»Ð¾Ð²Ð°)
http://www.freelook.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=40&Itemid=293

I am sorry, but, I do not understand?
Can you explain, please?

jeanna

If you follow that link and read it you will find this from our own Stephan Hartman 1999

Quote(Not by Mr. Frolov in this case, I just use this picture for reference, the source wants to stay anonymous, until his patent application is done and university verification tests will be done)
The claims are: 1200 Watts coil out with about 1076.4 Watts in into the driving motor at 3450 RPM. 8 amps @117volts at noload 9.2 amps @117 volts at full load
The output of about 1200 Watts is already a total overunity operation!
As they just increase the input power by about 140 Watts only between idle and load state and they get 1200 Watts output it seems indeed a case, where Lenz law is violated ! (the driving motor is inefficient in this case)
This generator also has NO motor effect ! If you supply current to the coil, the permanent magnet in the center will not rotate, cause the flux just stays inside the toroid core! There you can see, that the back drag does not influence the mechanical rotation of the magnet !
Regards, Stefan.
--
Hartmann Multimedia Service,
Dipl. In. Stefan Hartmann,

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on August 10, 2009, 04:59:14 PM

Quote from: jeanna on August 10, 2009, 04:19:52 PM
Probably not, but what are you asking?

Near what?
Ah you answered my Q.

I need to snap a neo onto the end of the tube to start it, and I did that yesterday. So, except for that, I have not. Well not this year with the radiant experiments.

jeanna

I only ask because I have used neos on and around my cores and you can easily hear the frequency changing. I have one powerful neo and when I physically put it on my new test core it appears to oversaturate my core and even with power still going into the JT nothing is comming out of the output side. I found this very interesting. Not only this but to me it seems like you can use neo's to change and or stabilize frequency. Soon I'm going to try to make a tube vid and put this experiment on it. My results as of now are me using a 1.3vAA for 10 sec. and then disconnecting. After I disconnect the voltage keeps rising and then levels off...around 30-40vdc. After it levels off the JT powers itself for at least 20min...not sure because I haven't timed it yet but its a good long while. Also it will light an led for about the same time I think. This seems verrrry efficient to me what do you think? I thinks the setup enables the 2 sometimes 3 maxcaPS to charge fully in 10-20sec.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on August 10, 2009, 05:11:20 PM

Quote from: jeanna on August 10, 2009, 04:56:21 PM
I am sorry, but, I do not understand?
Can you explain, please?

jeanna

If you follow that link and read it you will find this from our own Stephan Hartman 1999

copy text
go
http://translate.google.com/translate_t#
paste text
go
=englis text
veb

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on August 10, 2009, 05:18:12 PM

ÐœÐ°Ð³Ð½Ð¸Ñ,Ð½Ñ‹Ð¹ ÐºÐ¾Ð½Ñ,ÑƒÑ€

http://www.freelook.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=32&Itemid=293

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Yucca on August 10, 2009, 05:48:26 PM

Quote from: FreeEnergyInfo on August 10, 2009, 04:29:15 PM
Ð ÐµÐ·Ð¾Ð½Ð°Ð½Ñ Ð§ÐµÑ€Ð½ÐµÑ†ÐºÐ¾Ð³Ð¾
http://www.freelook.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=35&Itemid=293
http://www.freelook.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=37&Itemid=293

cool links, I am building something similar to the first diagram.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 10, 2009, 06:42:10 PM

@ FreeEnergyInfo

It is great that you can read Russian. Can you supply short summary in English? I do not understand what these are doing.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 10, 2009, 06:49:00 PM

Xee2:

I'm sorry but I could not open your video file. I need to get some additional codecs somewhere. I do have a question about your supercap, are you sure that is not supposed to be .47 F instead of .047? I have never seen a .047 cap but I have 2 of the .47s which is why I am asking.

Thanks,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 10, 2009, 08:14:15 PM

@ Pirate88179

Quote from: Pirate88179 on August 10, 2009, 06:49:00 PM
Xee2:

I'm sorry but I could not open your video file. I need to get some additional codecs somewhere. I do have a question about your supercap, are you sure that is not supposed to be .47 F instead of .047? I have never seen a .047 cap but I have 2 of the .47s which is why I am asking.

Thanks,

Bill

Yeh, it is only 0.047 F. Really small capacity to call itself a supercap. But that is all I could get without paying postage.

I attached a wmv version of video. Quality is poor but you can see how long it stayed lit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 10, 2009, 08:44:53 PM

Quote from: stprue on August 10, 2009, 04:59:14 PM
I only ask because I have used neos on and around my cores and you can easily hear the frequency changing.
...

Yes, the frequency doubles and the voltage plummets when you stick it onto the core toroid. I have not tried to see if it would stabilize it.
Right now, I think I am getting overloaded with unanswered possibilities.
So, I cannot take on anything more for myself. I am glad to look, though.
I just ordered a LC meter today. That ought to help me. I am struggling with inductors and matching them to each other and to caps.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Yucca on August 10, 2009, 09:27:33 PM

The circuit below is what FreeEnergyInfo references.

I will be building one when my HV caps arrive, itÂ´s a joule thief with a really high turn tertiary winding (basically a flyback trafo). The really high voltage low current output is charged into the output cap until the spark gap breaks down and then itÂ´s dumped through the filament lamp. YouÂ´re supposed to be able to light line voltage household bulbs using low input V and I. If thatÂ´s the case then maybe the bulb could be immersed in water and then measure the temp rise and see if more joules of heating are performed than joules inputted into the circuit, in which case OU is achieved.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 11, 2009, 08:17:26 AM

hello everyone ... im a little out of commission for a few days ...

but i was at a friends yesterday takeing apart my 600v 30 hp motor and my 7 hp 550v oooooo i got me an idea ... ;D ;D

so when i was there my friend dugg out a carbon rod heater from the 30's ... ;D

and an iron wire heater ... ;D he says if i can make them work for him he has a gift for me ....

i said ok a deal ... i never made the heaters run but i know they will ... ;D

my gift was a 1932 battery powered tube super heterodyne radio ... ;D :o :o :o :o

o boy my jaw hit the floor when i say it ... ;D

i have it here with me now ... i fell in love with it as SOON AS I SAW IT !! ;D

i will be building a huge pulse motor from the remains from my big motors ...

YES A REALLY BIG ONE ... A FEW HUNDRED POUNDS ... EACH ...

i will make a large rotor loaded up with weight then i will power it from a pulse motor coil ... and a 12vdc battery ... my plan is to get the large mass ripping ... :D

then i will use 2 gear reduction boxes .. to increase the torque and drive a few 12v 40 + amp altonators ..

plus im stripping the copper from the motors i will also use the lamanited cores for some tpu rings ..

i call them a tpu but really it will be a pulse motor rotating generator and a colapse recovery unit .. ..
;D

i found out yesterday my neibour is a electronics dude ... specialized in computer controled electronics ... 1 more year he sayd he has a uni deg in electronic engineering ...

i said REALLY ... got a week to build my teleportor ... ? ;D and i showed him my radio...

he never answered on the portor deal ... but his ears perked up ;)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 11, 2009, 02:49:21 PM

Hi everybody,
While I wait for my LC meter I have been making videos. :D

part 3 finally:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6pbzrhBR-8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6pbzrhBR-8)

It failed last night. The audio was removed and I needed to re-compress it and re-upload it.

This is over 8 minutes long, so be warned... I need to let them buffer when they are 8 minutes long!

I hope you enjoy it.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dllabarre on August 11, 2009, 03:54:54 PM

Quote from: jeanna on August 11, 2009, 02:49:21 PM
While I wait for my LC meter I have been making videos. :D
jeanna

I'm looking for a L/C meter now.
What did you get and where did you order yours from?

Thanks,
DonL

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 11, 2009, 04:03:16 PM

Quote from: dllabarre on August 11, 2009, 03:54:54 PM
I'm looking for a L/C meter now.
What did you get and where did you order yours from?

Thanks,
DonL

Here is the link to the meter.

http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/72-8155&CAWELAID=220586398 (http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/72-8155&CAWELAID=220586398)

$53 plus $12 for shipping. Lots... but better than the thousands I saw on other sites.
There is also a guy that makes a kit. I think it is more expensive than this, though, however it might be better. I hope this is good enough for what I am doing.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 11, 2009, 04:12:24 PM

@ jeanna

This may help you answer your video 3 question. Adding open ended extra pickup coils to toroid has almost no effect (but does increases main coil voltage some). But if anything is added to the ends of those extra pickup coils, then they can have a large effect on the main coil. The main coil is the one voltage is being taken from, it does not have to be the collector coil, it can be another pickup coil. You may want to try this experiment that I did.

EDIT REMOVED: not correct.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on August 11, 2009, 04:31:18 PM

Quote from: xee2 on August 10, 2009, 06:42:10 PM
@ FreeEnergyInfo

It is great that you can read Russian. Can you supply short summary in English? I do not understand what these are doing.

copy text
go
http://translate.google.com/translate_t#
paste text
go
=englis text, or veb pageveb

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on August 11, 2009, 04:36:16 PM

Quote from: Yucca on August 10, 2009, 09:27:33 PM
The circuit below is what FreeEnergyInfo references.

I will be building one when my HV caps arrive, itÂ´s a joule thief with a really high turn tertiary winding (basically a flyback trafo). The really high voltage low current output is charged into the output cap until the spark gap breaks down and then itÂ´s dumped through the filament lamp. YouÂ´re supposed to be able to light line voltage household bulbs using low input V and I. If thatÂ´s the case then maybe the bulb could be immersed in water and then measure the temp rise and see if more joules of heating are performed than joules inputted into the circuit, in which case OU is achieved.

ok
coil = auto ignition coil
antanas
lithuania

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Yucca on August 11, 2009, 04:42:46 PM

aÄiÅ« FreeEnergyInfo dÄ—l gerÅ³ ryÅ¡iÅ³ ir informacijos ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 11, 2009, 04:50:41 PM

Yucca:

That was nice of you to thank him for giving us those links. Yes, I used the translator, ha ha.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Yucca on August 11, 2009, 05:04:39 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on August 11, 2009, 04:50:41 PM
Yes, I used the translator, ha ha.

Same as me :D. IÂ´ve always thought it would be cool if forum software had integrated translation. Then users just choose their language and go.

Robot translators arenÂ´t perfect but usually I find I get 95% of the information, especially in engineering subjects, combined with posted photos and diagrams it would be more than good enough.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 11, 2009, 05:09:31 PM

@ FreeEnergyInfo

Quote from: FreeEnergyInfo on August 11, 2009, 04:31:18 PM
copy text
go
http://translate.google.com/translate_t#
paste text
go
=englis text, or veb pageveb

Thanks.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on August 11, 2009, 05:38:24 PM

NEV CIRCUT
MORE FREE INFO
http://www.youtube.com/user/FreeEnergyInfo
http://www.youtube.com/user/antanaslt

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on August 11, 2009, 05:50:41 PM

Quote from: Yucca on August 11, 2009, 04:42:46 PM
aÄiÅ« FreeEnergyInfo dÄ—l gerÅ³ ryÅ¡iÅ³ ir informacijos ;)

PRAÅ OM ,TAM IR GYVENAM Å IOJE PLANETOJE ......

PLEASE, FOR, and cities on this planet

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 11, 2009, 06:47:21 PM

Quote from: FreeEnergyInfo on August 11, 2009, 05:50:41 PM

Oh I see.

aÄiÅ«,
thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on August 11, 2009, 08:23:28 PM

FreeEI

your starting to look like an advertisement!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 11, 2009, 08:37:12 PM

Quote from: stprue on August 11, 2009, 08:23:28 PM
FreeEI

your starting to look like an advertisement!

But, you know... it looks suspiciously like something that would work.

Did you get your ignition coil yet?
I am afraid of mine! :D

I am wondering if the 1000v doide means it is rated for 1000v or if it is some more special thing.
1000v cap. I guess that is pretty special.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dllabarre on August 11, 2009, 08:49:00 PM

@Jeanna

Thanks for the EXTECH inductor meter info.
I was looking at EXTECH because I have their muti meter already.

Thanks,
DonL

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on August 11, 2009, 08:50:12 PM

Check this out!!!

I cant understand the beginning of what he is saying but it looks worth testing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDtgghR0oWw

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on August 11, 2009, 08:55:06 PM

Quote from: jeanna on August 11, 2009, 08:37:12 PM
But, you know... it looks suspiciously like something that would work.

Did you get your ignition coil yet?
I am afraid of mine! :D

I am wondering if the 1000v doide means it is rated for 1000v or if it is some more special thing.
1000v cap. I guess that is pretty special.

jeanna

I think I would be scared of that too. I still haven't tracked down a MOT yet either :-\

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dllabarre on August 11, 2009, 09:01:07 PM

Quote from: stprue on August 11, 2009, 08:50:12 PM
Check this out!!!

I cant understand the beginning of what he is saying but it looks worth testing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDtgghR0oWw

Sounds like he is explaining it in 2 different languages, like he's switching back and forth.

Interesting idea.

DonL

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on August 11, 2009, 09:03:28 PM

lol

that's what it is!!
:D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 11, 2009, 09:36:18 PM

have a look at my new pulse motor axel .... ;D ;D :o

lol

darn thing weigs bout 100 or more lbs

i have a big peice of plastic i will add to the mix this is from a 30 hp induction motor its all ready to mount on something lol

ist!

something wrong with english ... lol i already cant spell this language ... lol :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 12, 2009, 12:49:42 AM

Quote from: stprue on August 11, 2009, 08:50:12 PM
Check this out!!!

I cant understand the beginning of what he is saying but it looks worth testing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDtgghR0oWw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDtgghR0oWw)

stprue:

Thanks for posting this. Those caps recover very quickly there. I had heard about caps doing this but not that fast. I wonder if adding an antenna would increase the volts/charging effect? I have a whole tupperware tub full of salvaged caps...I might have to give this a try. Maybe I can tie it into the EER somehow.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 12, 2009, 12:53:36 AM

Hey, I just had a thought. What if one made a cap array like in the video, or larger, and instead of shorting it out like he did after it charges, maybe rig up a switch so you can dump the volts into a really large cap. So, every time it charges up you dump the energy into the large cap for later use. This would not increase the amount of total volts but, it may accumulate the small power that is there like I see on my EER and large supercap.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on August 12, 2009, 08:31:15 AM

best thing about a jule thief is that it presents a dead short to a discharged battery allowing for more conversion of chemical to electrical energy. Resonance does this also. If you have two capacitors one charged one discharged and you connect them in parallel the two capacitors will discharge until the voltage on each is equal. If you use resonance it will pump one capacitor dry and fully charge the other capacitor. Then the original dead capacitor starts to charge the now completely discharged capacitor and the current reverses. This will go on and on at a given frequency until the resistance of the circuit radiates the energy out of the system. The million dollar question is can a device be made that will experience the oscillation of the tuned circuit without damping the oscillations. The device developing a sympathetic oscillation where once the capacitor is charged to a certain degree it is dumped to an output device.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on August 12, 2009, 08:46:06 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on August 12, 2009, 12:49:42 AM
stprue:

Thanks for posting this. Those caps recover very quickly there. I had heard about caps doing this but not that fast. I wonder if adding an antenna would increase the volts/charging effect? I have a whole tupperware tub full of salvaged caps...I might have to give this a try. Maybe I can tie it into the EER somehow.

Bill

Maybe if we had a powerful enough array we could power an efficient JT with continuously. He had a lot of similar caps...like 2 main sizes and then one end looked different from the next...maybe at one end you need different dischange rate and values.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on August 12, 2009, 09:33:40 AM

tesla contruction

http://news.cqham.ru/articles/detail.phtml?id=738

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dllabarre on August 12, 2009, 10:05:58 AM

@ freeenergyinfo

What Tesla patents are those images from?

DonL

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dllabarre on August 12, 2009, 10:11:13 AM

Since I created my JT on 8/1 its been on.
I used the same AA battery and never turned it off.
The battery has gone from 1.168 volts down to .277 volts.
The LED was lit right up until .279 volts at 7:39AM this morning.
Once the battery hit .2788 the LED went out.

I'm curious how low of a voltage has others gotten before the LED went out?

DonL

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on August 12, 2009, 11:49:48 AM

Rave

I have been thinking of building your version of the 555 circuit

I have a question about the green line .
Is it just another wire ?
IDoes this circuit require reset to be connected with B+ ?

This circuit is a little more complex than some of the others but I like the mark/space adjustemnt
It seems to me that is important if you want to get the highest efficiency .... just adjust for the narrowest pulses that will get the job done .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 12, 2009, 12:46:58 PM

@ dllabarre

Quote from: dllabarre on August 12, 2009, 10:11:13 AM

Since I created my JT on 8/1 its been on.
I used the same AA battery and never turned it off.
The battery has gone from 1.168 volts down to .277 volts.
The LED was lit right up until .279 volts at 7:39AM this morning.
Once the battery hit .2788 the LED went out.

I'm curious how low of a voltage has others gotten before the LED went out?

DonL

That is a very low voltage for a silicon transistor. Can you post a circuit diagram?

Using germanium transistor I was able to get JT circuit to work down to 0.140 volts (see my post a few pages back). The following circuit should run for one month on an AA battery but I have not tested this. The 0.047 capacitor is not needed and the germanium transistor can be replaced with a silicon transistor as noted. If a 20 F capacitor is used instead of the 0.047 F capacitor, the circuit should run over an hour after the battery is removed. The circuit needs an efficient LED, both kinds I have work but not all LEDs will work in this circuit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on August 12, 2009, 05:15:53 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on August 12, 2009, 11:49:48 AM
Rave

I have been thinking of building your version of the 555 circuit

I have a question about the green line .
Is it just another wire ?
IDoes this circuit require reset to be connected with B+ ?

This circuit is a little more complex than some of the others but I like the mark/space adjustemnt
It seems to me that is important if you want to get the highest efficiency .... just adjust for the narrowest pulses that will get the job done .

gary
[/quote

4+8= input + batery

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on August 12, 2009, 05:59:35 PM

Quote from: dllabarre on August 12, 2009, 10:05:58 AM
@ freeenergyinfo
What Tesla patents are those images from?
DonL

This was on the 'Web, with respect to Reply #9111, this thread page, 2nd from top:

http://www.hbci.com/~wenonah/new/tesla.htm

These are only the issued patent numbers. Drawings to these patents would need to be seen individually.

--Lee

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dllabarre on August 12, 2009, 06:25:04 PM

Quote from: xee2 on August 12, 2009, 12:46:58 PM
@ dllabarre

That is a very low voltage for a silicon transistor. Can you post a circuit diagram?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 13, 2009, 12:58:14 AM

@ Pirate88179

This circuit runs for 30 seconds from the 0.047 F capacitor after the battery is removed. It is hard to show how bright the LED is during this time so I hope this video will help. The video starts when battery is removed. The LED is illuminating a piece of paper 6 inches in front of the LED. For the first 20 seconds the LED is bright enough to see what is on the paper. The coil is made with a 3.38" toroid but I think a Goldmine toroid will give same results. The time it runs should scale with the size of the capacitor. So your 0.47 F capacitor should run 10 times as long (about 3 minutes) and your 20 F capacitor should run 425 times as long (about 2 hours).

Sorry about video quality and codec, but it is hard to fit a good video into 300 kB.

EDIT: added photos at 5 second intervals

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 13, 2009, 01:04:36 PM

xee2:

I tried posting this last night 3 times but it disappeared somewhere so, I will try to write this again.

Nice video, there was no problem with quality at all on my end. It looked fine. Way back in the very beginning of the EB topic, I used just a supercap (5.5 volt .22 F) and a red led (5mm) hooked to my EB. I am going from memory here but I can look up those posts if it would help. I remember charging it outside for a few hours and then bringing it in the house and setting it on my table in the kitchen. It remained very bright for about 15 minutes or so and was still illuminated for about another 10 after that, but not bright enough to read from) This was long before I ever heard of a JT circuit so it was just the supercap wired to the red led.

I never tried a regular led and longevity test with my JT and the 10 F caps...I was always using ultrabright leds (10 mm) and usually more than one.

I would like to charge up my 650 F cap and hook that to a regular led and run a time test on it.

If I can find a photo of the led on my table running off the small cap, I will add it here.

This was not long after I joined this forum and I did not know very much at all, not that I know a lot now, ha ha. ***EDIT*** I had thought that was the .47 F cap but it was the one I got from a shake flashlight and it was .22F.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 13, 2009, 01:44:11 PM

One thing I have figured out that I didn't know then is how I could charge a 5.5 volts cap from my EB which , at that time, only put out about 1.6 volts. That 1.6 volts was measured on my meter and did not include all of those spikes that somehow the cap uses and stores. I see the same thing on my 2.7 volt 650 cap which charges from the electrodes which only reads about 2 volts on the meter.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on August 13, 2009, 03:41:00 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on August 13, 2009, 01:44:11 PM
One thing I have figured out that I didn't know then is how I could charge a 5.5 volts cap from my EB which , at that time, only put out about 1.6 volts. That 1.6 volts was measured on my meter and did not include all of those spikes that somehow the cap uses and stores. I see the same thing on my 2.7 volt 650 cap which charges from the electrodes which only reads about 2 volts on the meter.

Bill

So with the spikes it is also capturing current/F, right?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 13, 2009, 05:02:13 PM

xee2,
You also have made a tank circuit at the base resistor using a 200uF cap.
Also your drawing indicates 2 batteries??

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 13, 2009, 05:20:22 PM

Quote from: stprue on August 13, 2009, 03:41:00 PM
So with the spikes it is also capturing current/F, right?

Xee2 would know better but I think that the Farads are made up of both volts and amps. I believe this to be true or I could not have run my Bedini motor from my electrodes/supercap set-up. The Bedini will not, to my understanding, run on volts alone.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 13, 2009, 05:38:04 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on August 13, 2009, 05:02:13 PM
xee2,
You also have made a tank circuit at the base resistor using a 200uF cap.
Also your drawing indicates 2 batteries??

jeanna

I do not know if it is a "tank" circuit. I think those may be LC circuits. The two batteries were because I think Bill is getting about 2.5 volts out of his EB.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 13, 2009, 05:45:11 PM

Quote from: stprue on August 13, 2009, 03:41:00 PM
So with the spikes it is also capturing current/F, right?

I am not sure I understand question. Capacitors stores charge. The spikes can push extra charges into the capacitor because they are at higher voltage and thus can push harder.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 13, 2009, 09:43:40 PM

how my bedini chargers work is just that ... i push the power engery through my coil ... then to the recovery cap so it is 12 v on the output cap ... ;D then i turn off the coil .... the fly back also compounds in the recovery cap thuss rasiging the voltage and giveing the push ... ;D i slow it down from the cap with a diode ... to the recharge battery ... the more i get for push in my cap the faster the tpu will runn .. as im elelimiting the DRAG .. OF THE BACK EMF ...

SO NOW it will speed up to find ballance insted of slowing down ...

verry much the way thanes motor works EXCEPT he has given the colapse a magnetic return path to the driveing induction motor thus aiding the driveing magnetic feilds and accelerating insted of slowing down ... he does this with a shorted coil ... the generator induces electricty in the shorted coil .. after it is past the magnet that induced it.... it then colpases and flows through the flux feild return path to the induction core ..

but who knows ... ;D

ist!

wow i got my 30 hp motor stripped ... i now have a VERRY NICE ROTATION GEN TRANSFORMER CORE ...

WITH 36 SLOTS ... i think my pulse motor will rock the block!! ;) i plan on turning 4 altonators at minmun 40 amp dc each ... it is in the mass of the pulse motor and the gearing reduction to increase torque then it is a pully thing ... my goal is for the pulse motor NOT TO SEE THE WORK IT IS DOING... .. I WILL acomplish this through the gearing and mass .. 8)

im setting up A BIG DEMO UNIT ON A FARM NEAR THE MOST POPULAR BEACH IN CANADA.. ;) ;D

if your looking for me ill be at the beach!

W

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 13, 2009, 11:44:17 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on August 13, 2009, 05:20:22 PM
Xee2 would know better but I think that the Farads are made up of both volts and amps. I believe this to be true or I could not have run my Bedini motor from my electrodes/supercap set-up. The Bedini will not, to my understanding, run on volts alone.

Bill

(Since xee2 did not answer you yet...)
I think you collect joules in a cap. and the farad is a calculation of the joules/sec which is also how amps are calculated... joules/sec.

The volts are pressure, not things, I think. The volts have to be there to push the joules in or out of the cap. So, if there is a voltage difference in your system they will be there to push the joules into the cap, otherwise they - the joules which are units of charge?? - stay where they are. It is all very hocus pocus, but it seems to work.

So, the cap stored a lot of joules over time and when needed they could be dumped all at once, which makes it seem like a lot of amps. Then they fill into the cap again then dump again. If it is frequent enough it seems like a steady stream of joules to the motor.

I may be wrong, of course, but this is how I understand it today.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on August 14, 2009, 07:14:12 AM

Quote from: xee2 on August 13, 2009, 05:45:11 PM
I am not sure I understand question. Capacitors stores charge. The spikes can push extra charges into the capacitor because they are at higher voltage and thus can push harder.

That ansewers my question! So we are right Pirate!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on August 14, 2009, 07:32:29 AM

Quote from: jeanna on August 13, 2009, 11:44:17 PM
(Since xee2 did not answer you yet...)
I think you collect joules in a cap. and the farad is a calculation of the joules/sec which is also how amps are calculated... joules/sec.

The volts are pressure, not things, I think. The volts have to be there to push the joules in or out of the cap. So, if there is a voltage difference in your system they will be there to push the joules into the cap, otherwise they - the joules which are units of charge?? - stay where they are. It is all very hocus pocus, but it seems to work.

So, the cap stored a lot of joules over time and when needed they could be dumped all at once, which makes it seem like a lot of amps. Then they fill into the cap again then dump again. If it is frequent enough it seems like a steady stream of joules to the motor.

I may be wrong, of course, but this is how I understand it today.

jeanna

Thank you Jeanna, this seems to be a very clear way to think about it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 14, 2009, 08:03:19 AM

just cuz im me

and i would like to clear up any confusion i have made in the past ...

if we look at the pulse motor im building ... im doing the same thing with it as you are doing with electricty and caps ... altho i choose to keep the free cake in a rotary mechanical state to use the stored engery from the fly wheel to generate big AMPS...

same is done in the toroides when you do not tap the jt flyback ... if you do not tap it it will remain in the toroide .. and exit through the secondary windings ..

same deal with teslas car altho he used the kick in a rotary mechanical / megnetic fasion to drive the motor of the car ..

just how i see it ...

ist

i see no reason this is incorrect!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Yucca on August 14, 2009, 02:40:27 PM

hi xee2

here's the flyback schematic with pin labels for the samsung flyback.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 14, 2009, 02:45:25 PM

@ Yucca

Quote from: Yucca on August 14, 2009, 02:40:27 PM
hi xee2

here's the flyback schematic with pin labels for the samsung flyback.

Thanks.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Yucca on August 14, 2009, 02:57:09 PM

Quote from: xee2 on August 14, 2009, 02:45:25 PM
@ Yucca

Thanks.

No worries, when your flyback arrives, just doublecheck and DMM across the drive and trigger coil pins, across pins 9 and 10 you should see ~0.6 Ohm across pins 1 and 2 you should see ~1.2 Ohm. I look forward to seeing it running.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 14, 2009, 04:41:52 PM

Quote from: xee2 on August 13, 2009, 12:58:14 AM
@ Pirate88179

This circuit runs for 30 seconds from the 0.047 F capacitor after the battery is removed.
....
The LED is illuminating a piece of paper 6 inches in front of the LED. For the first 20 seconds the LED is bright enough to see what is on the paper.

Hi xee2,
I have 2 questions to ask you.
Q#1
I cannot find where you tell how long the charge time was?
Was it instantaneous?
I can get 4 or 5 seconds from a mere touch to turn the light on then let it run down.
4 seconds of on and it takes 26 seconds to go out, and the components are different etc. but I would like to know how long the charge time is for the 30 sec run time.

Q#2
I have been thinking about the ignition coil.
I measured across the 2 screws and the amount was 2.2ohm.
When I measure from either of those screws to the end of the secondary in the pipe, I get um 13 ohm... I forget exactly, but the point is it is the same amount.
I am still trying to figure which is the primary that is connected to the secondary. There is a + and - sign on them, so which is the 'twisted pair or center tap'? Would it be the + just like my joule thief + side?

I don't dare touch this to anything until I can get this answer!
But, I would like to try it outside on my EB and see what goes .

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 14, 2009, 05:24:54 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on August 14, 2009, 04:41:52 PM
I can get 4 or 5 seconds from a mere touch to turn the light on then let it run down.
4 seconds of on and it takes 26 seconds to go out, and the components are different etc. but I would like to know how long the charge time is for the 30 sec run time.

Great. What size capacitor are you using? My 0.047 F caps reach full charge in less than one second, but I usually leave them connected for about two seconds just to make sure they are fully charged. I think the time it takes to charge will be a function of how big your capacitor is. Bill says his 600 F caps charge up really quick, but I still find that hard to believe. Are you going to post your circuit?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 14, 2009, 05:29:43 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on August 14, 2009, 04:41:52 PM
I am still trying to figure which is the primary that is connected to the secondary. There is a + and - sign on them, so which is the 'twisted pair or center tap'? Would it be the + just like my joule thief + side?

My secondary is 11.6K ohms. I could not tell which side was connected from the ohms readings so I just tried both ways. The results I got were the same both ways. So I guess it does not matter.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on August 14, 2009, 05:41:14 PM

Quote from: Yucca on August 14, 2009, 02:40:27 PM
hi xee2

here's the flyback schematic with pin labels for the samsung flyback.
[/quote
PLYZ VIEV

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfFlfeg6AfM&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqiYDxMsayw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_RZJJeB-a4&feature=channel_page

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 14, 2009, 05:41:41 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on August 14, 2009, 04:41:52 PM
I don't dare touch this to anything until I can get this answer!
But, I would like to try it outside on my EB and see what goes .

Better to be safe than sorry, but I think you are being overly afraid. Put a neon from HV output to one of the primary inputs. Then touch a 1.5 volts AA battery across the primary terminals. The neon should blink. And you will have done your first successful test using an ignition coil. This should be safe to do. Maybe you will not be so afraid once you see that there are no big sparks. But do not touch the High Voltage output terminal with your fingers while you are touching the battery to the primary inputs or you may get a big shock.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on August 14, 2009, 05:53:58 PM

Quote from: jeanna on August 14, 2009, 04:41:52 PM
Hi xee2,
I have 2 questions to ask you.
Q#1
I cannot find where you tell how long the charge time was?
Was it instantaneous?
I can get 4 or 5 seconds from a mere touch to turn the light on then let it run down.
4 seconds of on and it takes 26 seconds to go out, and the components are different etc. but I would like to know how long the charge time is for the 30 sec run time.

Q#2
I have been thinking about the ignition coil.
I measured across the 2 screws and the amount was 2.2ohm.
When I measure from either of those screws to the end of the secondary in the pipe, I get um 13 ohm... I forget exactly, but the point is it is the same amount.
I am still trying to figure which is the primary that is connected to the secondary. There is a + and - sign on them, so which is the 'twisted pair or center tap'? Would it be the + just like my joule thief + side?

I don't dare touch this to anything until I can get this answer!
But, I would like to try it outside on my EB and see what goes .

thank you,

jeanna

Jeanna

WHen I was playing with my ignition coil I got about the same results with both connections on the coil

I was connecting though one connection and the HV tower for flyback .
It had the largest flyback pulses that I have seen so far using a flyback transformer as a JT coil .
I tried hooking it up the same way to a couple " normal" JT coils they didn't seem powerful enough ...... the ignition coil choked them .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 14, 2009, 05:56:04 PM

Quote from: Yucca on August 14, 2009, 02:57:09 PM
No worries, when your flyback arrives, just doublecheck and DMM across the drive and trigger coil pins, across pins 9 and 10 you should see ~0.6 Ohm across pins 1 and 2 you should see ~1.2 Ohm. I look forward to seeing it running.

yucca ...

2 ohm 4 ohm 8 ohm ... speekers ... 8) hummmmmm

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 14, 2009, 07:14:55 PM

Quote from: xee2 on August 14, 2009, 05:24:54 PM
@ jeanna

Great. What size capacitor are you using?

It is a 1F 5.5v supercap. It is the kind used in computers for memory loss protection, I think.

QuoteAre you going to post your circuit?

It is just an ordinary joule thief circuit with the supercap in the battery rail. But that is a good idea so there is a visual for people.

Ok thanks xee2 and
Gary,
I will just go ahead.

But first, I made a movie for the datalogging thread.
There was a 1.9 EQ 10 minutes before I checked the website and I grabbed my camera and scope.
I saw lots of spikes and I will give you the youtube address when it is uploaded... OK?

BBS

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on August 14, 2009, 07:52:55 PM

@jeanna

The correct shared pole is the negative pole!!

Check this diagram.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 14, 2009, 07:57:15 PM

Thank you Jesus!
That is perfect.

I made a movie of the earthquake spikes.
Here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJoPspdYyYU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJoPspdYyYU)
Now, I will go and see if it came out all right!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on August 14, 2009, 08:07:52 PM

@all

If you want to make a joule thief like an ignition coil the proportion is 1:110.

That means if you want to make a 5T joule thief you need the part after the center tap to be 550T.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 14, 2009, 08:19:04 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on August 14, 2009, 05:53:58 PM

I tried hooking it up the same way to a couple " normal" JT coils they didn't seem powerful enough ...... the ignition coil choked them .

gary

Gary,
I am not sure how you hooked them up to a joule thief?

I am thinking the ig coil IS the toroid of the joule thief.

I just don't know how to preserve the transistor.
Someone on another thread said to put a cap in parallel with it and I guess if I put a cap across the C-E it might help, or just across the base resistor. I don't want to go frying transistors without a better solution in mind.

Any ideas?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 14, 2009, 08:19:05 PM

jesus your a great guy !!

power day tommorow ;) 8)

8)

i just guessing were getting over 1000v out of the ign coil .. if so perfect for spark gaps..

and i also wondered 1 of each ... neg common and pos common at the same time in sync ...

anyone tryed it yet?

im gonna have to find me a few more ign coils and throw togather the IST SARK PLUG UNIT ;D

yikes i got tonnes of building to do ... i cant wate...

ist!

almost all moved ... then im a build ... ;D ;D ;D ;D

btw my bro stoped by today and said he has a bday gift for me ... boy o boy ..... i can pick them up in 10 days... after i have them i will tell you what they are ... ;) ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 14, 2009, 10:16:27 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on August 14, 2009, 08:19:04 PM
I just don't know how to preserve the transistor.
Someone on another thread said to put a cap in parallel with it and I guess if I put a cap across the C-E it might help, or just across the base resistor. I don't want to go frying transistors without a better solution in mind.

You can protect transistor by putting neon between collector and emitter. But I could not get the ignition coil to work as a JT. Good luck.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 14, 2009, 10:20:39 PM

Quote from: jeanna on August 14, 2009, 07:57:15 PM
Thank you Jesus!
That is perfect.

I made a movie of the earthquake spikes.
Here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJoPspdYyYU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJoPspdYyYU)
Now, I will go and see if it came out all right!

jeanna

Jeanna:

I canï»¿ see the spikes too. Great video! I just want to point out that this was Jim's (Electricme) idea from the start to look for natural anomalies to see if they affected our scope shots. The credit should go to Jim.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on August 14, 2009, 11:26:25 PM

Quote from: jeanna on August 14, 2009, 08:19:04 PM
Gary,
I am not sure how you hooked them up to a joule thief?

I am thinking the ig coil IS the toroid of the joule thief.

I just don't know how to preserve the transistor.
Someone on another thread said to put a cap in parallel with it and I guess if I put a cap across the C-E it might help, or just across the base resistor. I don't want to go frying transistors without a better solution in mind.

Any ideas?

jeanna

Jeanna

I just used the ignition coil as an inductor for making flyback
I connected one wire from my secondary to one of the terminals for the primary and then I connected the load to the secondary .
So the coil was in series with the secondary .

I thought about trying to make a JT with the ignition coil .
I gave the idea up ...... if it had another primary terminal it might work .........but as it is I see no practical way to make it work.

What I have been wondering about is if it would help add flyback if we were to try running the ignition coil more as it was designed .
I am talking about still hooking it up as I did using one terminal of the primary and the high voltage connection for the other connection .
What I wonder is if anything can be gained by using the second primary connnection to charge the coil like it would be in a car .

I am thinking maybe a high voltage diode and a pot between the battery and other connection to the primary .
Then maybe a high voltage cap after the coil . ....to keep the battery from driving the load directly .
Just thinking about it ......I have not tried it yet

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 15, 2009, 12:27:19 AM

Quote from: xee2 on August 14, 2009, 10:16:27 PM
@ jeanna

You can protect transistor by putting neon between collector and emitter. But I could not get the ignition coil to work as a JT. Good luck.

hmm I have so much to learn!
I wonder if 100 base turns is too many for the transistor arrangement etc.
I just learned that a higher value inductor in series with the leds of the S1 Secondary of my 2 secondary circuit freed up a LOT of power for the other S2 secondary. - a lot.

I just read that Gary is putting it in series with the secondary, I think there is more to learn and expand here.

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on August 15, 2009, 01:25:14 AM

@all

I just found this ...

http://www.rexresearch.com/szili/szili.htm

toroid used http://www.ferroxcube.com/prod/assets/tx20107.pdf

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 15, 2009, 07:43:54 AM

i found this to be great ...

thanks to janne808 for posting it .....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3eI4SVDyME

this answers ALL TPU IRON CORE operations 8)

induction .... ;D

JUST WATCH IT...
JUST BUILD IT! ...

IST!

in this video ... you see by adding more turns you increase the current flow ... from a changing electro magic feild...

awesome video janne808!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 15, 2009, 02:41:54 PM

Thank you, ist.

thank you janne808

lots to go on here.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on August 15, 2009, 06:03:10 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on August 12, 2009, 11:49:48 AM
Rave

I have been thinking of building your version of the 555 circuit

I have a question about the green line .
Is it just another wire ?
IDoes this circuit require reset to be connected with B+ ?

This circuit is a little more complex than some of the others but I like the mark/space adjustemnt
It seems to me that is important if you want to get the highest efficiency .... just adjust for the narrowest pulses that will get the job done .

gary

Never mind

I found my answer after 3 days of looking

It turns out that most of the information on building PWMs is either buried in hundreds of pages of posts or in videos .

My connection is to slow for videos .... So I guess I am pretty much locked out of the loop

Same thing with this thread .
All the new findings have been going into videos .
That might be great for some .......but for me it sucks

Can anyone here believe that no one that has visited this thread has any experience buildinig a PWM ?
Yet my question went unanswered .

I guess I am just tired of wasting my time here
The time I spend waiting for posts or getting timed out could be spent much more constructively

I may be back If I get something new going .
For now I am out of here .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on August 15, 2009, 06:56:55 PM

I always follow your progress as well as others gary.

Please reconsider, you continually contribute some interesting and thought provoking ideas.

You just have to roll with the wheels you have in life's race...sometimes we forget, we're in a marathon and not a sprint.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on August 15, 2009, 07:32:32 PM

@all

I will show you a experiment i conducted a while back, first its a 2 jt toroid , it also has radial coils one on the outer side 5 turns , and one 5 turns on the inside.

You can see all coils in the first picture, total 6 plus a control pickup coil of 5 turns for testing voltage .

The two jt are connected differently one with the positive rail connected north and the other est and west.

On the second picture you see the 2 jt with light working together it (without led 19 volt on the pickup coil) . Third and forth picture shows that removing one of the transistor doesn't change the led operation (btw the pickup coil with one transistor and no led show 22 volts)

There is also the radial coils on the outer one nothing , but gives 4 volts on the inside one , and lights a led only if there are none one the basic jt.

There are many things to be learned from this experiment ...

Mark

And space cat Miton says hi !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on August 15, 2009, 08:34:50 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on August 15, 2009, 06:03:10 PM
Never mind

I found my answer after 3 days of looking

It turns out that most of the information on building PWMs is either buried in hundreds of pages of posts or in videos .

My connection is to slow for videos .... So I guess I am pretty much locked out of the loop

Same thing with this thread .
All the new findings have been going into videos .
That might be great for some .......but for me it sucks

Can anyone here believe that no one that has visited this thread has any experience buildinig a PWM ?
Yet my question went unanswered .

I guess I am just tired of wasting my time here
The time I spend waiting for posts or getting timed out could be spent much more constructively

I may be back If I get something new going .
For now I am out of here .

gary

@resonanceman

Dont quit.
The 555 circuit is the first one I learned from the radio shack electronics course I bought.

I used it on a pulse motor and it worked very good.
If it help you somehow it is the following shematic.
Make any question about it.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on August 15, 2009, 08:52:15 PM

@gary

http://www.eleinmec.com/article.asp?28

http://homepages.which.net/~paul.hills/Circuits/PwmGenerators/PwmGenerators.html

http://uvasux.googlepages.com/pwmmodulator

http://www.dprg.org/tutorials/2005-11a/index.html

http://www.josepino.com/?pwm

I also have seen some dirt bike ignition coil with 4 leads ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 15, 2009, 09:36:03 PM

Gary,
I made a couple of videos for you and protonmom.
I never heard from you so I figured the videos were working ok.
I found out right away from protonmom that she could not see them so I went into more verbal length.
I am sorry because I never wanted to cut either of you out of my loop.

BTW, I think the joule thief is a kind of pwm, so I don't see why someone would use a chip instead of a toroid. The chip is vulnerable in a way the toroid is not. That is up to you... just my opinion.

Please stay.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on August 15, 2009, 10:17:17 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on August 15, 2009, 08:34:50 PM
@resonanceman

Dont quit.
The 555 circuit is the first one I learned from the radio shack electronics course I bought.

I used it on a pulse motor and it worked very good.
If it help you somehow it is the following shematic.
Make any question about it.

Jesus

Jesus

Thanks for the schematic

That schematic would have saved me 3 days
All I really need to know is if 4 and 8 were both connected to B+
On the schematic I had one of those connections was in green for some reason .
It was the only green wire ......all the others were back

Mark

Thanks for the links
I have not had the time to look at them yet .........but I will soon

A ignition coil with 4 wires ? I would bet that would be very easy to make into a high voltage JT

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

My deciding to leave is mostly a time thing .
My connection is slow enough that a page on this site often times out ......sometimes 4 or 5 times .
Quite often it loads about 90 % before it times out .
When it mostly loads a few times before timing out ......it may take 15 minutes just to get to the first posts .

The clincher is that I realised in the days I was looking for the 555 info that now so much of the new info is in videos ......and so not available to me .
I did try downloading some videos in the last few days .
I the best I did was about 3 min ....... then it stops ......but does not seem to know that it has stopped .

Just watching videos it buffers a few minutes then plays a word or 2.

I just can't go on wasting so much of my free time trying to keep up on the posts here

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on August 15, 2009, 10:43:45 PM

Quote from: jeanna on August 15, 2009, 09:36:03 PM
Gary,
I made a couple of videos for you and protonmom.
I never heard from you so I figured the videos were working ok.
I found out right away from protonmom that she could not see them so I went into more verbal length.
I am sorry because I never wanted to cut either of you out of my loop.

BTW, I think the joule thief is a kind of pwm, so I don't see why someone would use a chip instead of a toroid. The chip is vulnerable in a way the toroid is not. That is up to you... just my opinion.

Please stay.

jeanna

Jeanna

I am hoping that the timer is more stable than the JT

I can get a JT to self charge with enough inductors .
The problem is I can't get it to keep charging .
I am pretty sure it is a resonance thing .
It charges well when it is in resonance .........but as the battery voltage changes ....it drifts out of resonance and stops charging .

I am hoping that with a chip I can set the frequency and it will stay at least close to that frequency over a wide voltage range .
If so .......It should be much easier to keep it in self change mode .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 15, 2009, 11:46:22 PM

Oh I see.
This may be so, but it will still stop when it falls below a certain voltage level.
I do have a favorite diagram. I will see if I can find it . It has always helped me set it up.

edit
I found it and made it into a pdf. I hope you can open it all right.

jeanna

========

There is something wrong with my margins.
Is anybody else having this problem?
Mk1 put up a very wide picture as I did yesterday on another thread, and from that picture to now, the margins of the whole page are 3 full clicks wide.
I must scroll over on every line!
It is very tedious.
Am I alone with this problem?
Last week, the oversized pics would hang over the frame but the
margins would be normal.

help!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on August 16, 2009, 06:43:09 AM

@Gary,

Quote from: resonanceman on August 14, 2009, 11:26:25 PM
Jeanna

I just used the ignition coil as an inductor for making flyback
I connected one wire from my secondary to one of the terminals for the primary and then I connected the load to the secondary .
So the coil was in series with the secondary .

I thought about trying to make a JT with the ignition coil .
I gave the idea up ...... if it had another primary terminal it might work .........but as it is I see no practical way to make it work.

What I have been wondering about is if it would help add flyback if we were to try running the ignition coil more as it was designed .
I am talking about still hooking it up as I did using one terminal of the primary and the high voltage connection for the other connection .
What I wonder is if anything can be gained by using the second primary connnection to charge the coil like it would be in a car .

I am thinking maybe a high voltage diode and a pot between the battery and other connection to the primary .
Then maybe a high voltage cap after the coil . ....to keep the battery from driving the load directly .
Just thinking about it ......I have not tried it yet

gary

Hi Gary, if you were game, cut the ign coil open, then when it is apart, unsolder the joined neg wires, this will free up another wire for you to use.
Watch out for oil, better do this outside and over a meat tray, save the oil in a glass bottle and lable it.

@all,
This afternoon I was repairing a PC, I was given a wheelie walker, so as only had a 24v gopha, I towed it back, what a sight this was, I stopped all the oldies playing their game of bowls ha ha.
jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Thaelin on August 16, 2009, 07:11:57 AM

Hi Gary:
In the search for what is going on, I too have run into the realization
that this "must" be a resonance thing. If you look into natures clock work
you will find resonance at work. You may have to look at the really big
picture to see it but it is there.
Now take a coil/cap pair, at only one spot is it resonant. Your charge
only happens when your circuit is in resonance. The key is to find a way
to add a feed back to tell the main circuit to adjust to keep it there.
I have been on a quest to learn how to wind a "proper" coil. Not as easy
as you would think. Many factors go into the mix. Wire size is really not
a really important factor other than how much amps you wish to carry in
it. Things like C to L ratio, diameter to length and spaceing of the winds
all have a very high effect on its outcome.
I have chosen to set the frequency and then adjust all these factors to
achieve that result. Number 14 solid wire should be enough to get started
with.

thaelin

>Quote from Gary<

I am hoping that the timer is more stable than the JT

I can get a JT to self charge with enough inductors .
The problem is I can't get it to keep charging .
I am pretty sure it is a resonance thing .
It charges well when it is in resonance .........but as the battery voltage changes ....it drifts out of resonance and stops charging .

I am hoping that with a chip I can set the frequency and it will stay at least close to that frequency over a wide voltage range .
If so .......It should be much easier to keep it in self change mode .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 16, 2009, 08:23:38 AM

i was wondering about useing a larger battery on the supply ..

say like 12v then step it down to 1.5v this would insure the voltage remained the same for a peroid of time ...

and when it does start to drift swap the battery with a recharged one ...

i would think this would work ok ...

ps
gary keep it here!!

ill be back at it soon ... i just need to reset up my lab ... and this time ... well i will compleat my units fully

im considering haveing a green engery expo at the beech next spring .. untill then i will build build and even build MORE!! ;D

got lots of storage ... and 180 A.. farm to show em off ...

i have come up with a portable EB cell of higher voltage output!!

i plan on setting up my turbines pulse motors hho cells solar amps wind generators EB'S AND JT'S TPU. cascade amps...

and of course the cable system i will be picking up ... ;D

there was even a dammaged XM2 power supply unit ... i may be able to have.... ;D

a mouse got into the XM2 and chewed a few wires.... :D

who knows ... the xm2 are expencive units ... so i wont hold my breath ... i hear you put in 90 amp ... they spit out 120 amp 1000v ... ;)

i have never seen them ....

the stuff i can have is the older stuff trunk amps ... power insertors ... rf amps ... that kind a thing ... ;D

and A FEW TRUCK LOADS.... OF EM 8) ALL FREE OF COURSE THEY ALL WORK JUST FINE ...

someone i know is installing fiber optics across ontario... this is the equipment they are removeing ...

plus who knows ... this is just the gear from a few small towns .... there was an old fiber link hub thing too ... like i said in 10 days i will know better what i was given ..

im just moveing ... and getting it all back in ordor ..

then im a full timer ... ;D

W

hang on there gary ... cuz were gonna rip....

EVEN IF THE RECORD SKIPPS I STILL RIP ... ;D

RIP= ROCK IN PEACE!

SNC
CRU

STRIGHT NO CHASER!! 8) PULSE AMPLIFICATION ......... ARC REACTORS ON!! :o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oCXwl7XBiQ

OK so i add this ... i herd this on the radio yesterday ... :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

in st tomas ontario there was a report of a spirialing ufo out of control crashed yesterday ...

the police an opp helicoptor and a number of agencyies are serching a 25km square looking for the remains of the down ship ... ..

no joke this was brodcast on the radio yesterday ... and there was also a show bout 3-4 weeks ago in trontro 2 ufo's over the lake on the lake shore battling it out!! :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on August 16, 2009, 09:37:26 AM

I'm not sure if this belongs here or I should start another thread.But it is running a JT.

I this video I'm using an earth ground on the negative side of the battery.
And using an AV on the positive side of the battery.
With a capacitor comming off the negative diode and going back to an earth ground or antenna.

I'm running the JT off the capacitor thats grounded off the metal shelf.

It's been running for 20+ hours and the battery is the same as when it started.

Here is a couple video's of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lK9-qE-wPwE&feature=channel_page

And here is one after 20 hours of running.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qldWl4EEFu4&feature=channel_page

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 16, 2009, 10:02:28 AM

Hi slayer007

Nice to hear from you again. I would suspect that with that great big battery the LED and JT are going to run a long, long, long time.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on August 16, 2009, 12:23:27 PM

Quote from: Thaelin on August 16, 2009, 07:11:57 AM
Hi Gary:
In the search for what is going on, I too have run into the realization
that this "must" be a resonance thing. If you look into natures clock work
you will find resonance at work. You may have to look at the really big
picture to see it but it is there.
Now take a coil/cap pair, at only one spot is it resonant. Your charge
only happens when your circuit is in resonance. The key is to find a way
to add a feed back to tell the main circuit to adjust to keep it there.
I have been on a quest to learn how to wind a "proper" coil. Not as easy
as you would think. Many factors go into the mix. Wire size is really not
a really important factor other than how much amps you wish to carry in
it. Things like C to L ratio, diameter to length and spaceing of the winds
all have a very high effect on its outcome.
I have chosen to set the frequency and then adjust all these factors to
achieve that result. Number 14 solid wire should be enough to get started
with.

thaelin

>Quote from Gary<

I am hoping that the timer is more stable than the JT

I can get a JT to self charge with enough inductors .
The problem is I can't get it to keep charging .
I am pretty sure it is a resonance thing .
It charges well when it is in resonance .........but as the battery voltage changes ....it drifts out of resonance and stops charging .

I am hoping that with a chip I can set the frequency and it will stay at least close to that frequency over a wide voltage range .
If so .......It should be much easier to keep it in self change mode .

gary

Thaelin

It looks like we are thinking along similar lines .

IST

I agree that a good sized battery would help .

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here is my plan .........maybe one of you can get it done faster than I can

I do not think that a fancy feedback system is needed .
I plan on using a lead acid battery . I am posting a picture of the unit I am modifying .

The voltage of this battery when fully charged can be as high as 14.5 V
It is supposed to be good at deep discharge but in general under 10.5 V is damaging for lead acid batterys .
So .... I need to make a JT like circuit that will be stable over a range of 4 V

I plan on using 2 windings for the charger .......the first one will be tuned to about 13 V ( using a bridge and cap . )
This one will be as large as possible and still keep it in self charge mode .
The other secondary will be slightly higher voltage and lower power . ( maybe about 16 V )
This winding will in effect be a trickle charger / reconditioner
It will be rectified and feed the battery a pulsed DC just a bit over the normal highest charge voltage .
This winding has to be limited with a cap to provide a low enough current to never cause any bubbles in the electrolyte . With 60 Hz power a 1uF cap would work for this size battery ........with high frequency a smaller cap will be needed.,,

The first winding will simply sit there ...if the battery is fully charged ......
If the battery drops below the voltage in the bridge/ cap it will start charging ...
There should be little or no affect on the circuit because of the charging .......because the bridge /cap is always held at approximately the same voltage .

I chose this unit to modify because it has a good sized battery ( 12 Ah) .......a circuit with LEDs to show charge status . ...... several connection options including a cigarette lighter with a 15 A breaker...... and jumper cable clamps with a switch .
It also has a light ...... right now it has a bulb like a flashlight ... I plan on replacing it with a LED array ........
It has space available in each end (by the battery) for electronics that is close to 1 x 4 x 4

When this is finished it should be able to power quite a few things .
With a JT I was able to self charge while running 90 LEDs .
Using higher voltage and a PWM I hope to double this output ......maybe more .

After this project the next thing is moving up to a car battery ........using an inverter to take off power .

After the car battery ...... setting a large inverter up with several car batterys .... we should be able to run stuff like air conditioners .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on August 16, 2009, 12:25:01 PM

Quote from: xee2 on August 16, 2009, 10:02:28 AM
Hi slayer007

Nice to hear from you again. I would suspect that with that great big battery the LED and JT are going to run a long, long, long time.

Hello Xee2

Did you notice in the video I'm only using the positive side of the battery.
The capacitor is getting it's power from the AV plug on the positive post and the antenna groung from the metal shelf.

The negitive side of the battery is only going to an earth ground.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 16, 2009, 12:38:08 PM

verry nice slayer007

verry nice ... can you do a drawing ...

that would be awesome...

:)

gary great idea ... i like your unit...

this is just wild to see it !! here and now in 3D EARTH REALITY!!

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on August 16, 2009, 01:24:01 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on August 16, 2009, 12:38:08 PM
verry nice slayer007

verry nice ... can you do a drawing ...

that would be awesome...

:)

gary great idea ... i like your unit...

this is just wild to see it !! here and now in 3D EARTH REALITY!!

ist!

Thank You IST

I sure can I have a few things to do this afternoon.But I will make one tonight.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on August 16, 2009, 01:37:34 PM

@gary

The 555 is a great idea , fix the freq first, but also the square wave will give you better output voltage, cleaner and more powerful emf.

@ist

Remember you don't need more voltage , but faster modulation , for greater emf current...

The speed is limited by the core desaturating speed , the cut core should be able to desaturate faster .

Remember the movie The Core ...

Also look at the my post on post on page 916 , the one with 2 jt on one toroid.
I get higher voltage with only one jt , plus the second jt can't be set the first jt triger it and causes interference . Those are thing to be aware of in designing a multiple jt unit...

@jeanna

Nice movies ... Keep the great work .

@slayer

Nice to see you again .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 16, 2009, 02:29:00 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on August 16, 2009, 12:23:27 PM
...

I do not think that a fancy feedback system is needed .
I plan on using a lead acid battery .

gary

Gary,
Isn't there a voltage regulator that comes as part of a car battery/generator system?

As I have said a zillion times, I am not a car guy,
but I had to buy one of those things twice and if it works in your circuit,
it might be an easy way around all this voltage regulation problem??

EDIT ADD

QuoteAlso look at the my post on post on page 916 ,
the one with 2 jt on one toroid.
I get higher voltage with only one jt ,
plus the second jt can't be set the first jt triger it and causes interference .
Those are thing to be aware of in designing a multiple jt unit...

MK1,

thank you..

I am glad you are reminding people of this.
It is exactly what I found the day my 2 tier was born.

I am finding more ways to put inductors in there to enhance
the final amount of leds.
(I am finding inductors are helping more than caps,
which is surprising me.)

I was making the latest video when I changed the inductor
and that different size made all the difference.
It is an important thing to remember, so thanks
for bringing it up again.

@Slayer,
I too, am glad to see you again.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on August 16, 2009, 03:50:27 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on August 16, 2009, 01:37:34 PM
@gary

The 555 is a great idea , fix the freq first, but also the square wave will give you better output voltage, cleaner and more powerful emf.

Mark

I am thinking of going with a TL494 it is designed as a PWM.

It should be pretty stable ....... it has a built in regulated 5V power supply for internal functions . including the oscillator .
It can be powered with 7 to 42 V
Oscillator frequency from 1 hz to 200 KHz
Up to 500 mA output for driving mosfets or other transistors .

It may take me a while to get up to speed with this .........but it looks to me like it will handle any future projects I have in mind .
I am thinking when we get to multiple battery systems a separate charger for each battery might be best ....... the batterys can then be used in series or parallel as needed .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on August 16, 2009, 04:02:54 PM

Quote from: jeanna on August 16, 2009, 02:29:00 PM
Gary,
Isn't there a voltage regulator that comes as part of a car battery/generator system?

As I have said a zillion times, I am not a car guy,
but I had to buy one of those things twice and if it works in your circuit,
it might be an easy way around all this voltage regulation problem??

jeanna

The regulator in a car is pretty much just a diode bridge .

With my plan the majority of the problem is solved by tuning the coil.
If it won't go over 13.5 V on a diode bridge ......it will not overcharge a lead acid battery . As the voltage of the battery approaches 13.5 V the current will drop .
When the voltage of the battery is the same as the voltage in the bridge the only current that will pass is the battery losses .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on August 16, 2009, 04:05:46 PM

Thank You All.

I never left just been busy working.
But I still been reading up in this thread.

Great work everyone.

ITS asked me for a circuit here it is.

The capacitor I have grounded out on a metal shelf for an earth ground.
The battery negative is going to an earth ground a coper pipe about 2' in the ground.

If you use an earth ground for the cap. dont use the same earth ground.
Use a differant earth ground a little ways away from the other.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on August 16, 2009, 04:08:10 PM

Also I didn't show the JT circuit.The one for this test was just a basic circuit.

I was just showing how the wires can off the cap to the JT circuit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 16, 2009, 04:59:50 PM

@ slayer007

Hmmmm... What is resistance between the two earth grounds? Even if it is 1000 ohms the battery will charge the capacitor. The resistance will only slow the rate of charge. If your antenna ground is not connected to the earth, then this is requires more study.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on August 16, 2009, 05:30:39 PM

Quote from: xee2 on August 16, 2009, 04:59:50 PM
@ slayer007

Hmmmm... What is resistance between the two earth grounds? Even if it is 1000 ohms the battery will charge the capacitor. The resistance will only slow the rate of charge. If your antenna ground is not connected to the earth, then this is requires more study.

The antenna is a metal shelf sitting on a concrete floor.
The other earth ground is a copper pipe 2' in the ground about 1' away from the garage.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 16, 2009, 06:21:34 PM

Gary:

I hope you decide to stay. You are a valuable member of this group and have contributed a lot to everyone. If you decide to go, you will be missed.

A tip in case you didn't know about it. (If you do and are using it already, ignore this)

Use Firefox for your browser (Mozilla) as this forum, and many other sites, are optimized to run on Firefox. Then, get several add-ons, Ad-blocker, no script and downloadhelper. These block the ads and pop-up windows that take up most of the time to load a page. Even with my DSL pages here and elsewhere were taking like 30 seconds to load, and sometimes (like you said) never finished loading. Now, they load in less than 2 seconds. I know you are using dial-up and, God help you. But if you are not using Firefox, switching over, which is really easy and fast, will greatly speed up all of your page loading times. My Youtube videos load about 5 times as fast with Firefox as they did with ie.

Just some thoughts.

I hope you remain with us here.

Bil

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 16, 2009, 06:30:04 PM

@ slayer007

So is this your circuit (without LED and diodes)?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on August 16, 2009, 06:50:53 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on August 15, 2009, 10:17:17 PM

Jesus

Thanks for the schematic
...
All I really need to know is if 4 and 8 were both connected to B+
On the schematic
...
gary

Almost always with some exceptions, the #8 and #4 pins are connected to positive.

You can connect them to positive without damaging anything.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on August 16, 2009, 07:23:12 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on August 16, 2009, 06:21:34 PM
Gary:

I hope you decide to stay. You are a valuable member of this group and have contributed a lot to everyone. If you decide to go, you will be missed.

A tip in case you didn't know about it. (If you do and are using it already, ignore this)

Use Firefox for your browser (Mozilla) as this forum, and many other sites, are optimized to run on Firefox. Then, get several add-ons, Ad-blocker, no script and downloadhelper. These block the ads and pop-up windows that take up most of the time to load a page. Even with my DSL pages here and elsewhere were taking like 30 seconds to load, and sometimes (like you said) never finished loading. Now, they load in less than 2 seconds. I know you are using dial-up and, God help you. But if you are not using Firefox, switching over, which is really easy and fast, will greatly speed up all of your page loading times. My Youtube videos load about 5 times as fast with Firefox as they did with ie.

Just some thoughts.

I hope you remain with us here.

Bil

Bill

I guess I am still here .
I spent another day getting nothing at all done .

I had a schematic for a TL494 circuit that I can't find .
I thought I had it saved .......but could not find it .
Can't remeber where I got it from .

I have been using firefox for quite a few years .
My son knows alot more about computers than I do ....he told me the beat way to aviod hackers and viruses is to aviod using IE and outlook express . .....that was good enough for me .
I spent agood share of the day a week or so ago downloading the latest version of firefox ......their site said it downloads faster .
Mostly it freezes up more ........at least on this computer .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on August 16, 2009, 09:46:37 PM

Quote from: xee2 on August 16, 2009, 06:30:04 PM
@ slayer007

So is this your circuit (without LED and diodes)?

Basically yes, With out the diodes and led.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on August 16, 2009, 10:42:44 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on August 16, 2009, 06:50:53 PM
Almost always with some exceptions, the #8 and #4 pins are connected to positive.

You can connect them to positive without damaging anything.

Jesus

thanks Jesus

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 17, 2009, 12:31:33 AM

@ slayer007

That is a puzzling circuit. It seems like it should not work but yet it does. If an amp meter is added at the positive terminal of the battery does it show any current flow? Either when the battery is first connected or afterwards. If the Joule thief is working, it must be drawing current from the battery somehow. At least according to the normal rules of physics.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 17, 2009, 02:06:20 AM

Hi everybody,
Here is the latest video.
This is the 4th and final for a while.
I had a happy surprise this week while filming this.
It stopped me for a while, but the video is now finished.

Of course, there will be more, but for now on the joule thief ,
I believe this is it, until I make more progress.
=====
I just removed it.
It got compressed at the wrong level and the quality was terrible.
I will upload the proper version tomorrow and provide a link.
======

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Thaelin on August 17, 2009, 02:51:18 AM

As good as it is, there are a few things that you can do that will crank up the speed too. See the link below. I have used them and they work.

http://jamespoling.com/how-to-double-your-firefox-browsing-speed-with-a-few-easy-tweaks/

Thaelin

Just to let you know, that page does load a lot of stuff, pics and things. Just fluff tho.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on August 17, 2009, 08:53:33 AM

Quote from: slayer007 on August 16, 2009, 04:05:46 PM
Thank You All.

I never left just been busy working.
But I still been reading up in this thread.

Great work everyone.

ITS asked me for a circuit here it is.

The capacitor I have grounded out on a metal shelf for an earth ground.
The battery negative is going to an earth ground a coper pipe about 2' in the ground.

If you use an earth ground for the cap. dont use the same earth ground.
Use a differant earth ground a little ways away from the other.

Slayer007 have you tried using a supercap or maxcap instead of a battery?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 17, 2009, 09:29:52 AM

@ slayer007

Is anything on the shelf plugged into a wall socket. If so, maybe the shelf is connecting to earth ground through the wall socket. Have you checked the resistance between the shelf and your earth ground?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 17, 2009, 02:21:37 PM

OK everybody,

After 2 more attempts, my 4th video explaining the joule thief with secondary circuit I have been working on... is ready.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNoZrV3w4f8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNoZrV3w4f8)

There is the link if you care to watch it.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on August 18, 2009, 06:04:02 PM

Quote from: xee2 on August 17, 2009, 09:29:52 AM
@ slayer007

Is anything on the shelf plugged into a wall socket. If so, maybe the shelf is connecting to earth ground through the wall socket. Have you checked the resistance between the shelf and your earth ground?

no, Xee2 there is nothing on the shelf plugged it.
It will also work with a human touch.
I even tried it standing on a wooden chair.

It wasn't as nearly as bright as the shelf but it did light a little.
I also tried it on a old car in the garage and it worked good off that also.
And that has four tiers with nothing touching the cement but the tires .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on August 18, 2009, 06:05:52 PM

Quote from: stprue on August 17, 2009, 08:53:33 AM
Slayer007 have you tried using a supercap or maxcap instead of a battery?

stprue, No I havent but I will try it tonight.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 18, 2009, 08:17:18 PM

Hey everyone. I have been away from here for a few days but I wanted to show you all what I have been working on.

This is way off-topic and I will remove this post after a few days but I wanted you guys to see my completed motorized bike project:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9I0UFMZAzY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9I0UFMZAzY)

This thing really runs great and should get over 150 mpg. It is fast enough to scare me and it is a blast to ride.

I will try to catch up on the posts here and Jeanna's videos too. This project was very cheap to build.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dllabarre on August 18, 2009, 08:37:24 PM

@Pirate

Nice ride. :)

Hey... I recongnize those houses on that street. I think I know where you live.... NOT! Just kidding. :P

DonL

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 18, 2009, 11:08:30 PM

You got 5 stars just for rigging the camera on the top of your head!! ;D

I got my LC meter today. ooo cool.
I have not had time to measure everything yet... I was having a time with youtube
not letting me post a reply on my own video page.
Sill not, but jdc saw it and he was the first to ask for the schematic, so fine.

My stubblefield generators have pretty low induction.
Some parts of some of them are higher. I am surprised.
I guess it is how thick the diameter is, but I thought the thicker
the more the self induction.
BUT the red biggo that lights the fluorotube has 495mH
almost a half a Henry!
The one on the same big toroid with 60 turns solenoid fashion has
5.8mH big big difference there!

I took some more pics of the scope this evening.
I guess I will report that now...

I sure am glad ou is fixed again!
Thank you Stephan!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on August 19, 2009, 11:20:36 AM

jeanna said:

Quote
I got my LC meter today. ooo cool.
I have not had time to measure everything yet... I was having a time with youtube
not letting me post a reply on my own video page.
Sill not, but jdc saw it and he was the first to ask for the schematic, so fine.

@jeanna
Your Stubblefield mentionings brought to my mind: Energetic Forums has a Renewable Energy Forum with a Earth Battery SG thread. The earth battery has an air core coil set and a transistor that charges 2 batteries in a hand-drawn diagram on the page.

This seems to me to be simpler and easier to comprehend. I always liked simplicity. I'll try to get to a better computer to upload the 'Web address later.

Later Re-edit:
Here you go:
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/2209-earth-battery-sg.html

What do you think?
--Lee

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 19, 2009, 01:02:40 PM

@ DonL:

Thanks man.

@ Jeanna:

Thank you. I just used a bandanna wrapped around my head and lashed the cam to my head with it. I was going to use wood screws but I thought it might hurt, ha ha.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 19, 2009, 01:03:08 PM

hello everyone

nice videoes jeanna !!

i have been packing and uncovering tresures .... lol :D

so i found some big O i had from when i built the IST CORK SCREW unit ... 4 channel .. any how i refound it ..

cut 3 ribs off it and wound 2 coils on it like newman style but i was thinking of jt'int the 2 4" aircore coils ... ;D then i could do a few things with it like put my inductor cap ring inside of it ..

i used 28 gage 150 turns x2

ist

8)

being that there is no iron in this ring feroite or anything like that it will set up an external feild .. that will be expanding and on the colpase it will be contracting ... so this is actually almost free if you use it as a jt ... i think just bringing a inductor close to the changeing electro magnetic feild .... will cause engery to flow in the inductor winding ..

as the old formula says the closer the windings on the bobbon meaning the witdth of the electro coil the stronger the magnetics produced .. so if i used really fine wire and mannnnny turns .. i could make a really strong feild from a really week source ...

then its only a speed thing ...

here is a pic of a cheeply made coil

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on August 19, 2009, 02:25:58 PM

@all

http://www.rlpenergy.com/docs/DataSheet_Random_20090408_Rev4_pp1.pdf

http://www.rlpenergy.com/docs/PT103410_RevA_RandomVibeProductBrief.pdf

Piezoelectric jt running on ambient noise ... The sound of silence ... Tpu sounding ...

http://www.rlpenergy.com/

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 19, 2009, 03:19:15 PM

wouldnt it be kool if the coil showen could repell even a really week magnetic feild ... like mac's breaking coil ... 8) ;D

where you cancel the flux from the magnet then open the switch it flows to the steel really fast .. then it closes agin ... if you get what i mean .... :D

if we could get it to do this there is no need for an input of electricty .. just a magnet ;D

you would want it to operate just like a jt .. but harvest the moveing flux from a magnet ..

i have not done it with this coil as i just built it but if you place the magnet in the right place it will want to repell the coil when the coil is shorted .. then if you dont short the coil it will move through the coil easly ..

hummmmm

ist

even if you did have to pay for a transistor to turn it off and on .. really fast ... lol i bet it wont cost u much ...

i think you want to ballance the gausses of the magnet with equal gausses of electro magnet ..

even if you had to power the coil a tiny bit im sure it would be ok :) you could even make it into a verry nice neo zapper ... ;D 8)

just put the neo on a spring from a flashlight let it bounce a little ... ;D inside the coil ... lol ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 19, 2009, 04:32:29 PM

It is interesting that the company trade-marked the name joule thief. I don't know if that was dumb or smart.

@Ist,

Quotenice videoes jeanna !!

thanks.

Here is a question for today:
If you can figure out how to use pulses that are REALLY fast, (voltage ones) then make an earth battery. I hope your new place has some ground.
I am seeing waves of volts that are 5mV with a standard earth battery and ~35-65mV with stubblefield coils added to the outsides of the earth battery.
This is NOT shown on the DMM.
It is something that rides above the stuff the DMM picks up and calls dcvolts. It is pulses. The quickest I can see are 5.55MHz.
I am on it, but I think many of us should get on this and make something happen from these very high frequency pulses that have not very big voltages.
They COULD be taking the place of the transistor.

In the joule thief the transistor cuts up the 1.2 v into high frequency. then the back spike greatly amplifies the volts.
Would it not be very cool to use the free pulses to make high enough volts to run a secondary-joule thief? Or even a basic one.

I am starting to catalog my already existing inductors.
This earthquake swarm is making my head swim. Pic is a peek at some from today on the official site near the swarm..(I think)
I need to focus hard to stay on it.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 19, 2009, 05:09:34 PM

Someone asked a while back if the toroid was special or could we use a straight cylinder.
I cannot compare the flux of these right now.
but
14 turns around an antenna makes an inductor of 4uH
14 turns around a high flux stick of ferrite makes the inductance 9uH
so fine that is more than double
but get this...
Using the same wire I wrapped it 14 times around a new toroid I just got
.495mH (!)
Here is the really cool part.
If the wires are all jammed together on the antenna and on the ferrite stick, the inductance goes up by about 1uH so from 3uH to 4uH or 8uH to 9uH. (aircore is 3uH to 4uH for these 14 turns)

On the toroid the wires can be jammed together or spread around the entire toroid and it changes NOTHING.

So, I think the answer is. There is something very special about the shape of the toroid.

I am psyched. This is going to really help.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 19, 2009, 05:32:46 PM

theres 180 acers 5 min from the beach! just perfect for the largest GREEN ENGERY TECHONALGY EXPO 2010 ;D

gotta get get GREEN

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on August 19, 2009, 06:10:40 PM

@all

My latest build scalar jt , really directional both leads are going in the same direction but different spin direction , unlike the regular bifilar jt witch is reverse direction and reverse spin . You take both leads form one side to positive rail , not opposite like basic jt.

With interesting results ... more on that later . Once i test it one my regular toroid .

Also the 3jt , the secondary was put on first and is made of 40 turns 24 gauge bell wire, the 3 jt are going in the same direction reverse spin , i only tested on jt at a time , the secondary shows between 150 and 170 volts light neon really nice one side ...

And the last one not finished i posted a drawing of it once inspired by a picture posted by !ST

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on August 20, 2009, 04:34:59 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on August 19, 2009, 01:03:08 PM
hello everyone

nice videoes jeanna !!

i have been packing and uncovering tresures .... lol :D

so i found some big O i had from when i built the IST CORK SCREW unit ... 4 channel .. any how i refound it ..

cut 3 ribs off it and wound 2 coils on it like newman style but i was thinking of jt'int the 2 4" aircore coils ... ;D then i could do a few things with it like put my inductor cap ring inside of it ..

i used 28 gage 150 turns x2

ist

8)

being that there is no iron in this ring feroite or anything like that it will set up an external feild .. that will be expanding and on the colpase it will be contracting ... so this is actually almost free if you use it as a jt ... i think just bringing a inductor close to the changeing electro magnetic feild .... will cause engery to flow in the inductor winding ..

as the old formula says the closer the windings on the bobbon meaning the witdth of the electro coil the stronger the magnetics produced .. so if i used really fine wire and mannnnny turns .. i could make a really strong feild from a really week source ...

then its only a speed thing ...

here is a pic of a cheeply made coil

IST

I am looking forward to seeing how this works out .

Do you have any links or anything on stuff along this line ?
What you were talking about sounds kind of like a project I have been thinking about for a while .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on August 20, 2009, 06:45:24 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on August 20, 2009, 04:34:59 PM
IST

I am looking forward to seeing how this works out .

Do you have any links or anything on stuff along this line ?
What you were talking about sounds kind of like a project I have been thinking about for a while .

gary

IST

After thinking about it for a while .......I decided to tell you about my ideas about what you seem to be doing .

I had this idea close to 8 years ago .... I am not sure I am much closer to getting it buillt than I was then .

I can see how it works .......but I am not very good at building.

Just to be clear I am adding a picture of the coil I am talking about .

My original came to me when I was thinking of making a Tesla coil .
I was looking into making a spark gap .
I did not like what I saw .
All the larger Tesla coils used a motorized spark gap for faster quenching.
I read that when a Tesla coil is working well you should hear an UNEAVEN sound .

This stuff it all wrong ............but it is the way all the Tesla coil sites are doing things.

A Tesla coil requires that the primary be tuned to a specific frequency and the secondary be tuned to a harmonic of that frequency .

A spark gap in a Tesla coil is a way to make the energy transfer between coils in short bursts .
It also makes sure you have a very high rate of change .

If the speed of a motorized spark gap is not timed with the harmonics of the primary and secondary you may have a coil that makes big sparks ........but it is not really a Tesla coil ........because a Tesla coil is about resonance.

OK .... I will get off my soapbox

:)

If a specific core was added to the inside of the coil pictured ...... It could work as a spark gap .
It would also be very similar to a Mag Amp.

The whole thing would have to be carefully built .
At low power it would act as a normal coil .
The flux from the coil will flow though the core .
At some power level ...... the core will go into saturation.
After saturation the core will no longer hold all the flux ............
Then .....BANG ........ it jumps to the next level .

A thicker core or higher permeability core will raise the power level required for the jump .
Unfortunately the coil will only work at one specific power level .
Adjusting the number of windings may be a way of partly adjusting the coil for different power levels ........but in general the core itself will set the power level .
An air core could be used for low power ..... but I am pretty sure that the bang comes from storing flux in the core .

The space between the core and the secondary will be important .
Without the space the flux may jump to soon ........ To much and it will be hard to pick up much charge .

IN theory ........ if a thin core with a winding inside of it was placed in the space between the primary core and the secondary .
A signal applied to this winding would attract or repel the flux in the core ..
We would have an inductive triode.
Also ........ if the grid coil was powered by a steady current it should make the coil act like a rectifier .

So far I have not got results that I am happy with ........but in a couple of tests I did end up with a coil that also worked as a voltage divider .
The voltage applied would stay in the original coil up to a certian voltage .......above that voltage would show up in the secondary .
This alone could be worth developing ......it could be used as over voltage protection for some of our circuits .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 20, 2009, 06:49:39 PM

well gary do hang round thease parts .. as im only working on overunity.com no where else on the net ..

but as soon as i get moved ..... ;D

we all gonna get moved ... ;) :D

lol

so i will be building fully this unit public on overunity ... along with all my other half finished units ...

i left them behind not because they dont work .. 8) i never compleated much of my work .. yet ..

not at all cuz it does not work ... but the time to build them compleatly was not right ...

the time to finish ALL OF MY WORK HAS COME !! ;D

and each and everyone is welcome to join in ...

would really like to have an expo next summer at the beach ... but i dont want to be the only one there ..... ;)

peace

w

still moveing ..... 8)

gary sir you never cease to amaze me .... !!

im glad your here ... and 8 years ago AWESOME.

i call this my work but HONESTLY ITS EVERYONES WORK :)

AS I GAVE ALL MY WORK FOR PUBLIC USE ..

I have like 30 diffrent ways to build that coil

how bout garden wire ... bailing wire ... ;D hummmmm

i would wind it on a 4 rib unit and rectify the garden wire or send that to the NEO ZAP.. i got an old movie some where on ou of this or a varient of it ...

lots of ways

another you could try is the MAC trick ... ;D alum 1 turn based on surface area rectify it ... ;)

another key to this coil showen is pnp switching and diode blocking it from returning to the switch so it colpases in the EATHER and when it DOES CUZ IT WILL it charges up near by metal objects so be wize ... ya know door handles tools .... that kind of thing .... IM NOT JOKEING .....

agin when im done the shift!!! then i will build picture and video lots of TOYS... 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hartiberlin on August 20, 2009, 08:26:29 PM

Hi,
sorry, I did not yet read all the latest posting, have to catch up soon.

Great work in this thread !

I just was in a "Building-Shopping-Mall" the other day and
saw these new higher power LEDs that now have a very
comfortable warm white light, almost as warm as halogen lamps.

Maybe some of you can get some and post some
videos how you light up these LED bulbs.
The light is very nice for the eye..
Not anymore the cold white, but warm white light.

Here I found some on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/High-Power-MR16-White-Flood/dp/B001KYA2JE?tag=ruhleben-20
http://www.amazon.com/Brightest-MR16-3x1-5-LED-White/dp/B001GV22Q2?tag=ruhleben-20
http://www.amazon.com/Brightest-MR16-Lumen-LED-white/dp/B001VKVPWK?tag=ruhleben-20
http://www.amazon.com/Light-bulb-14LED-Warm-White/dp/B000M1A656?tag=ruhleben-20
http://www.amazon.com/Surface-Mount-White-Light-Module/dp/B001GH0FE2?tag=ruhleben-20

and here is a video which shows the difference between cold white and
warm white LEDs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YoE_amGqWc

Hope this helps.

Maybe someone will find a way to run them off an earth battery
with such a brightness ?

Good luck.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on August 20, 2009, 09:15:38 PM

@all

I conducted a test to see why i can light led in both polarity from my secondary.

Ok first the mk1 split jt coil , will light both way regardless of the secondary design , meaning going one way or up and down.

Now when i tested my scalar jt, i get a strong voltage in only one direction , lighting a led in only on direction.

So i made a up and down secondary (pickup coil) regular mk pickup coil , and got the leds working both ways .

Conclusion the mk1 design is really design for dual polarity work , from the plit jt and the up and down secondary.

I find this so cool since it works exactly how i imagined it...

Mark

Btw , my scalar jt has 16 turn bifillar jt coil and i got 50 volt from a 21 turn up down pickup coil, and that is on a toroid i considered bad.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hartiberlin on August 20, 2009, 09:44:37 PM

Here are 2 videos to see how the LED future will be,
if the prices still come down:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6RJGQvpd60

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzcPnLCMd_g

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on August 20, 2009, 11:17:49 PM

Quote from: hartiberlin on August 20, 2009, 09:44:37 PM
Here are 2 videos to see how the LED future will be,
if the prices still come down:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6RJGQvpd60

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzcPnLCMd_g

Very Nice Post . I have been using warm highpowered leds for some time now . they are not bluish and come in two wave lengnt . one is blinding pure white and the other is a warmer golden color . the beauty of the Jt research is that their 4 watts they are using to light them is My 4 milliwatt s to bring them to full bright !

I got a lot Of catching up on reading post . I am Busy lalely with Other things and school starts Monday . Later guys .
Peace

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 21, 2009, 08:21:57 AM

@ yucca

Thanks for your help. With all of the information you provided, I was able to make a flyback JT circuit that works from 1.5 volts.

NOTE: test was with D cell but it also works with AAA battery.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: ResinRat2 on August 21, 2009, 11:31:36 AM

Quote from: hartiberlin on August 20, 2009, 09:44:37 PM
Here are 2 videos to see how the LED future will be,
if the prices still come down:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6RJGQvpd60

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzcPnLCMd_g

Stefan,

Just to let you know my experience. I purchased 11 LED bulbs that are output rated the same as a 60 watt incandescent bulb. They are posted as using only 5 watts to get this output. What I found was that they do not put out as much light as a regular 60 watt bulb. This is because they have a metal jacket around the base that is used to cool the bulb like a heat sink. This means that the total overall area of light that is given off from the bulb is much less than a regular incandescent.

If the bulb is used in an overhead light, it gives good output directly below the bulb, but on the sides it is much less illuminated.

Also, I have five of the bulbs outside, used to illuminate my overhead garage door area and the lamp post by my front sidewalk. The output is very very lame because the bulbs point upward. I still get illumination, but it is poor to see.

One other thing. When the weather gets cold and snowy in the winter the bulbs don't light up correctly. They pretty much just flash on and off in a steady rythmic pulse. Once the temperature warms up above freezing they start to work properly.

What is nice is that I am using all 11 bulbs. Going from 60 watts to 5 watts is an over 90% reduction in energy usage. Those 11 bulbs running all at once donâ€™t even consume the energy that a single 60 watt bulb uses over the same amount of time.

Thatâ€™s why I put up with the shortfalls.

Just some thoughts on what I observed. Much more improvement needs to be done and the cost certainly needs to come down.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 21, 2009, 12:20:26 PM

im pretty sure ill be able to blow em up ... lol

i good at that ... lol

i found a WONDER FUL PEICE OF WORK ...

CHECK THIS OUT!

i just wish he knew what to do to make it better ..

this uitalizes an idea i had a few years ago on overunity.com called magnetic gears...

he only needs to change a few things on this unit .. and he has a self accelerating ufo purpulsion device ... but i see a tm ... on his logo ... sorry no secreats ..

but i must say amazing design ..

anyone know what happins when you wind up a gyro scope and move it by 90 deg...

ooo right blast off..... ;)

great job on your unit if you are reading this !!!

ist

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCLN7e0x--c&feature=channel

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on August 21, 2009, 05:09:23 PM

@all

I have found something interesting ccfl blacklight use some piezoelectric transformer , really high tech stuff anyone can get it .

http://focus.ti.com/lit/an/slyt107/slyt107.pdf

Jt , humm , some source on internet said up to 15 watt more , but really how much from 1.5 volt ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 21, 2009, 05:52:34 PM

I think this is the lowest power for lighting a fluorescent tube that I have seen. Only 10 mA from a 1.5 volt AAA battery. The tube is not as bright as it seems in photo, but it is more than just barely lit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on August 21, 2009, 06:15:28 PM

Quote from: xee2 on August 21, 2009, 05:52:34 PM
I think this is the lowest power for lighting a fluorescent tube that I have seen. Only 10 mA from a 1.5 volt AAA battery. The tube is not as bright as it seems in photo, but it is more than just barely lit.

I was looking at 2 new different monitor circuits I have and both use the number 10 pin as the one that receives the collector signal.

Maybe if you try it the light can be brighter.
what I mean is to switch the base side connections with the collector side connections and the voltage should improve.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Yucca on August 21, 2009, 07:00:34 PM

Quote from: xee2 on August 21, 2009, 05:52:34 PM
I think this is the lowest power for lighting a fluorescent tube that I have seen. Only 10 mA from a 1.5 volt AAA battery. The tube is not as bright as it seems in photo, but it is more than just barely lit.

Nice work xee2, you're going to have a lot of fun with that flyback! Amazing you're exciting that CFL on just 15mW especially because the flyback has an integrated HV stack diode which at that power level will probably be sinking more than the CFL.

It is possible to break the small cylinder on the case side and remove that diode for even more efficiency with regard to running as a JT but I'd leave it as is because its nice to have pulse DC out for charging caps in high energy HV pulse experiments etc.

Now the worlds of lifters, poynting flow thrusters, mini tesla coils, tesla hairpin circuits and more are available to you also.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on August 21, 2009, 07:33:25 PM

@yucca

Do you think we could make lifter work from 1.5 to 9 v ?

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 21, 2009, 08:03:39 PM

@ nievesoliveras

Quote from: nievesoliveras on August 21, 2009, 06:15:28 PM
I was looking at 2 new different monitor circuits I have and both use the number 10 pin as the one that receives the collector signal.

Maybe if you try it the light can be brighter.
what I mean is to switch the base side connections with the collector side connections and the voltage should improve.

Jesus

Thanks. But reversing pins 10 and 1 cuts output voltage in half.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on August 21, 2009, 09:03:29 PM

Quote from: xee2 on August 21, 2009, 08:03:39 PM
@ nievesoliveras

Thanks. But reversing pins 10 and 1 cuts output voltage in half.

Do not just switch the 1 and the 10. Do the whole thing.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Yucca on August 21, 2009, 09:04:05 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on August 21, 2009, 07:33:25 PM
@yucca

Do you think we could make lifter work from 1.5 to 9 v ?

Mark

Hi Mark,

9V into a flyback HV supply built like xee2 yes it should fly if built light.

If you balanced a tiny lifter on a long thin balsa beam with a razorblade fulcrum point then you may see the beam move at even 1.5V supply input.

24V input and it will be straining at the leash!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on August 21, 2009, 10:25:31 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on August 21, 2009, 09:03:29 PM
Do not just switch the 1 and the 10. Do the whole thing.

Jesus

Jesus

My flyback transformer JT is a little bit simpler than yours .
I use pins 1 3 and 10
They are hooked up exactly like a regular jt .
The 3 pin is hooked up as if it was the start and end that are twisted together on a regular JT.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 21, 2009, 10:37:09 PM

Quote from: xee2 on August 21, 2009, 05:52:34 PM
I think this is the lowest power for lighting a fluorescent tube that I have seen. Only 10 mA from a 1.5 volt AAA battery. The tube is not as bright as it seems in photo, but it is more than just barely lit.

Xee2,
Would you be willing to draw this newest circuit in the form of a regular joule thief circuit?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on August 21, 2009, 10:48:40 PM

@xee

Nice ! I just got a flyback my self , i would love it if you could find the drawing of your ac circuit .

I just can't find it .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 21, 2009, 11:14:31 PM

@ nievesoliveras

Quote from: nievesoliveras on August 21, 2009, 09:03:29 PM
Do not just switch the 1 and the 10. Do the whole thing.

Jesus

??? ??? There is no need to reverse pins 2 and 9, they are tied together. The circuit you posted is not better. Build it and you will find out.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 21, 2009, 11:17:34 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on August 21, 2009, 10:37:09 PM
Xee2,
Would you be willing to draw this newest circuit in the form of a regular joule thief circuit?

thank you,

jeanna

??? ??? It is drawn as a regular JT.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 21, 2009, 11:20:13 PM

@ Mk1

Quote from: Mk1 on August 21, 2009, 10:48:40 PM
@xee

Nice ! I just got a flyback my self , i would love it if you could find the drawing of your ac circuit .

I just can't find it .

??? ??? I do not have an AC circuit. It is powered by batteries.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 21, 2009, 11:26:53 PM

Quote from: xee2 on August 21, 2009, 11:17:34 PM
@ jeanna

??? ??? It is drawn as a regular JT.

Thanks
That is the reason I was/am confused.
What toroid is in this thing called a flyback with 8 pins and why use this instead of a toroid?
Just being confused again,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 21, 2009, 11:30:12 PM

To anyone not familiar with flyback transformers:

There is no standard pin out for flyback transformers. The pin numbers can be very different between various models of transformers.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 21, 2009, 11:38:49 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on August 21, 2009, 11:26:53 PM
Thanks
That is the reason I was/am confused.
What toroid is in this thing called a flyback with 8 pins and why use this instead of a toroid?
Just being confused again,

jeanna

There is a transformer core very much like a toroid in the transformer, but it is not actually a toroid. It is made of sections that fit together. I do not know what all of the pins are for. They are either not used or are additional pickup coils that are used for some function in the TV set. The advantage of the flyback is that it has a very large number of turns with high voltage insulation for the main pickup coil. You could make the same thing on a toroid if you could get that many turns on the toroid.

EDIT: remember, the Fuji is not a toroid either, but it works like a toroid transformer.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on August 21, 2009, 11:44:18 PM

@xee

The circuit you made with 2 transistor that could light both side of the neon ?

Sorry i should at lest leave a space between sentences, It would be less confusing .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 22, 2009, 12:03:39 AM

@ Mk1

Quote from: Mk1 on August 21, 2009, 10:48:40 PM
I just got a flyback my self

I hope you have better luck than me in figuring out which pin goes where. I bought one like Yucca's because he had already done that. I always ended up very confused when I tried to work it out.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 22, 2009, 12:07:02 AM

@ Mk1

Quote from: Mk1 on August 21, 2009, 11:44:18 PM
@xee

The circuit you made with 2 transistor that could light both side of the neon ?

Sorry i should at lest leave a space between sentences, It would be less confusing .

Mark

I posted the circuit and a photo of the board. What would you like to know?

EDIT: I can repost if you want me to. I think this is what I posted.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on August 22, 2009, 12:16:36 AM

@xee

I would love if you posted it again.

For the flyback i will just map it first check the ohms , then try it , if it doesn't work i will reverse one of the leads , that should do.

Thanks again.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 22, 2009, 12:22:40 AM

Mk1

Quote from: Mk1 on August 22, 2009, 12:16:36 AM
@xee

I would love if you posted it again.

For the flyback i will just map it first check the ohms , then try it , if it doesn't work i will reverse one of the leads , that should do.

Thanks again.

Mark

I posted circuit. If you need more info I have more.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Yucca on August 22, 2009, 12:44:09 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on August 22, 2009, 12:16:36 AM
@xee

I would love if you posted it again.

For the flyback i will just map it first check the ohms , then try it , if it doesn't work i will reverse one of the leads , that should do.

Thanks again.

Mark

Hi MK1,
The difficult bit is finding the HV return pin. one tip is to use 6V supply (4 x AA) to hand pulse a coil that has approx 1ohm resistance. set up a small spark gap (1mm) between the red HV lead and a croc clip flylead. pulse the coil and clip the flylead to various other pins looking for a small spark in your gap. this way you hunt for the HV return pin. look for the strongest spark. You may need to reverse the 6V on the 1ohm coil before you find it because of the integrated diode. once you find it you also know the polarity needed for the drive too. good luck.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on August 22, 2009, 12:48:28 AM

@yucca and xee

Thank guys !

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 22, 2009, 01:05:42 AM

Quote from: xee2 on August 21, 2009, 11:38:49 PM

...They are either not used or are additional pickup coils that are used for some function in the TV set. The advantage of the flyback is that it has a very large number of turns with high voltage insulation for the main pickup coil. You could make the same thing on a toroid if you could get that many turns on the toroid.

EDIT: remember, the Fuji is not a toroid either, but it works like a toroid transformer.

Ah, I see.
thank you,
jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Yucca on August 22, 2009, 01:11:14 AM

@mk1, forgot to mention, if you think you find the HV return then also check it for isolation from all other pins, if it's standalone then its definitely it. when mapping it just make sure you use a low current source of no more than 6V but more than 4V.

@all
be careful with these at higher drive levels or even at lower drive levels if you start charging HV caps. Left hand in the pocket when working on this stuff is always a good habit to get into even if it is a bit annoying.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 22, 2009, 09:22:46 AM

much like tube amps eh yucca...

1 hand in the pocket!! ;)

i dont know what your all playing with but why not use the 5kv flyoff or the 30kv flyoff

i have taken flybacks apart b4 ... and they are a treat!!

there are hv caps in them and hv diodes... so dont touch it!!

i dont see why you couldnt use this as a supply for the MAC coil ...

same darn thing... ;D

basically you fill up the cascade ... only 10% can drain through the gap ... so your only ever filling 100% the first time ... then you only replace 10 % in each pulse.... but getting the speed and voltage of 100% ALL THE TIME...

same as my pulse motor that accelerates ... the more i take from it the faster it will run..
the distance of the gap sets your timeing ...

o the million ways to do it .. but right what are you doing .. harvesting the kick ... every tube tv operates like this by original design ... overunity right out of the factory ... same with tube amps ...

i have a big tube amp ... a few hundred watTs hifi up to 32ohm and down to 2ohm ... the thing weighs bout 50lbs ... it has the amp built in it and 2 aux power pluggs too ..... ;D ;D ;D ;D

and the darn thing runs on a wire thinner than my head fones .. that plugs into the wall ...

i saw it and said ... no way in heck it is drawing all the supplyed power from the ac mains through that TINY CORD... ;D

of course not .... ITS OVERUNITY FROM FACTORY TOO.... ???

LOL

IST!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on August 22, 2009, 11:26:56 AM

Quote from: xee2 on August 22, 2009, 12:03:39 AM
@ Mk1

I hope you have better luck than me in figuring out which pin goes where. I bought one like Yucca's because he had already done that. I always ended up very confused when I tried to work it out.

Xee

I just check for continuity between all the pins.

I use a marker to mark the pins that have continuity .

Then I check for resistance.

The winding with the lowest resistance should be used for transistor base .

If you have continuity between more than 2 pins you may be able to use a pin as a center tap ........

gary

Edit

I just looked at my flyback transformer again
I made a mistake on my last post .

I have the JT connected to pins 1 3 and 4 pin 3 is like the wires twisted together on a normal JT
My secondary is pin 10 and the HV wire

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 22, 2009, 06:34:22 PM

@ resonanceman

Quote from: resonanceman on August 22, 2009, 11:26:56 AM
I have the JT connected to pins 1 3 and 4 pin 3 is like the wires twisted together on a normal JT
My secondary is pin 10 and the HV wire

Great. It seems you have something working. Are you biasing with a single base resistor? What are you using for power supply? Yucca said he had problems hooking it directly to a power supply. Have you tried that?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on August 22, 2009, 07:55:49 PM

Quote from: xee2 on August 22, 2009, 06:34:22 PM
@ resonanceman

Great. It seems you have something working. Are you biasing with a single base resistor? What are you using for power supply? Yucca said he had problems hooking it directly to a power supply. Have you tried that?

Xee

I have not done much with my flyback JT for a few months .

The picture is my flyback JT driving my 90 LED array
As you can see I am using one AA battery ..

I have also lit a CFL with it ..... is I think 25 watts ....... it is supposed to replace a 100 watt bulb. It lights to about half brightness with one AA.

I stopped using this JT mostly because I burnt up enough stuff for a while .
:)
I tried using an ignition coil for flyback with this JT ....... it worked well .......I did not burn up my array .......but I did hear a sparking sound ......then noticed that where 2 wires of my alligator clips crossed ......the electricity would arc right though the insulation .
I think the only thing that saved my array was that I left the electronics on it ...... these particular electronics allow it to light very easily and lights the LEDs dimly at low power . The newer units don;t do this .
I think the caps in the electronics buffered the HV pulses and protected the LEDs.

About the base resistor .
I made up a board with connections for a 3055 transistor and a pot .
I have used this board for almost all my JTs for months .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 22, 2009, 09:00:00 PM

@ resonanceman

Quote from: resonanceman on August 22, 2009, 07:55:49 PM
I made up a board with connections for a 3055 transistor and a pot .
I have used this board for almost all my JTs for months .

Thanks.

I measured spikes over 200 volts between collector and emitter on my circuit (lights 2 neons in series but not 3 in series). This is well above the spec for the 2N3055. But, I guess it is OK to use a 2N3055 since you have not had any problems. That is good news since they are easier to get than the MJE13007.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on August 22, 2009, 09:22:50 PM

Quote from: xee2 on August 22, 2009, 09:00:00 PM
@ resonanceman

Thanks.

I measured spikes over 200 volts between collector and emitter on my circuit (lights 2 neons in series but not 3 in series). This is well above the spec for the 2N3055. But, I guess it is OK to use a 2N3055 since you have not had any problems. That is good news since they are easier to get than the MJE13007.

Xee

I have not had any problems with this basic setup ......but when I added the ignition coil for flyback I burnt up a 3055 and a 60 LED array and damaged a DMM.

I think it is pretty safe .
Are you sure you are measuring across the collector and emitter ? Are your neons in the original JT LED position ?
That sounds like secondary voltage to me .
The primary runs at much lower voltages

gary
gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 22, 2009, 11:41:42 PM

@ resonanceman

Quote from: resonanceman on August 22, 2009, 09:22:50 PM
Are you sure you are measuring across the collector and emitter ? Are your neons in the original JT LED position ?
That sounds like secondary voltage to me .

It is not the pickup coil voltage, that goes over 1000 volts. It is between collector and emitter in the normal JT diode location. I usually do a quick check just to see how close I am to the spec. The 2N3055 seems to be very hardy.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on August 23, 2009, 08:37:48 AM

Quote from: resonanceman on August 21, 2009, 10:25:31 PM
Jesus

My flyback transformer JT is a little bit simpler than yours .
I use pins 1 3 and 10
They are hooked up exactly like a regular jt .
The 3 pin is hooked up as if it was the start and end that are twisted together on a regular JT.

gary

I think that I made a mistake thinking that changing the @xee2's connections will change the performance.
I now see that it does not matter because there are 2 wires tied together always.

Quote from: xee2 on August 21, 2009, 11:14:31 PM
@ nievesoliveras

??? ??? There is no need to reverse pins 2 and 9, they are tied together. The circuit you posted is not better. Build it and you will find out.

You are completely right! I just noticed it after posting. I could not get back to the posting on time to put it out. I have been having troubles connecting to the internet for almost 2 days now.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 23, 2009, 10:11:24 AM

To anyone thinking of using a flyback transformer:

I know this has already been said, but it is worth saying again. These things are extremely dangerous. Yucca was putting in 10 watts of power (20v @ 500ma) and in my experience the JT is about 10-20% efficient. Thus, even at 10% efficiency he had over 1 watt of power coming out at more than 10,000 volts. This is VERY DANGEROUS.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 23, 2009, 10:26:14 AM

Quote from: xee2 on August 23, 2009, 10:11:24 AM
To anyone thinking of using a flyback transformer:

I know this has already been said, but it is worth saying again. These things are extremely dangerous. Yucca was putting in 10 watts of power (20v @ 500ma) and in my experience the JT is about 10-20% efficient. Thus, even at 10% efficiency he had over 1 watt of power coming out at more than 10,000 volts. This is VERY DANGEROUS.

i fully agree .....

BE WIZE.... this is the reason it is scartered on ou ... it can be fatial ....

so please ... go slow and stay safe ...

i guess you all know why i never built some of my crazy designs ... SAFTY FIRST ... learn test prove then build ... it would have been nice to be funded but ...

now its too late ... ;D cuz ill do it all by myself ... if i must!!!

so im building things JUST A LITTLE BIT DIFFRENT ... ;D SAME OLD TRICKS ...

but i will do it mechanically to avoid stupid problems .. plus this silly world can understand them much easyer as you can see it spinn..... shusssssh dont tell anyone you just remove the rotary parts ... lol

i will atempt to tap MANY HORSE POWER FROM SOME OF MY BIGGER DESIGNS ..

i will try to get 200lbs of material spinning at 1500 + rpm ... from a pulse motor ;D

im not sure the equasion any more ... but who cares ... i think with the tesla turbine .. @2000 rpm 10lbs would be putting out 200hp

do not quote this it has been years since i checked into this ... sheesh the stuff that has flowen through my mind since then is unreal!!

there is no reason it will not power an entire house.. plus when it breaks down cuz things always do ... it will be easly repaired ...

no guessing wich chip blew up ... ;D

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on August 23, 2009, 03:17:06 PM

I found one of the LED arrays online that I got at walmart .

http://www.lightsofamerica.com/Products/7200-LED-BN.aspx

This array only has 24 LEDs ....... I am pretty sure that they are straw hat LEDs
This array is listed at 2.5 W but it puts out close to the same amount of light that my 60 LED array puts out .
The 60 LED array is listed at 3.5 W

Both lights say Lights of America on the package .
I have no idea why the floodlights are not listed online .

The straw hat array seems to be harder to light .
By that I mean it takes more to get it going .
My 60 Led array will light up at a lower voltage than the straw hat LEDs
My 90 LED array will light up even lower than that ......with the original electronics sill intact . At very low power most of the LEDs don't light up .....some light dimly .....some glow purple .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on August 23, 2009, 04:44:39 PM

Has anybody actually tried this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfaMCOMuWl8&feature=related

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 23, 2009, 05:55:41 PM

Quote from: stprue on August 23, 2009, 04:44:39 PM
Has anybody actually tried this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfaMCOMuWl8&feature=related

Welcome back stprue!
I am glad to see you.

About this video.
I would say we all have been doing this all along on this thread.
We are using a joule thief circuit to produce pulses which
change the magnetic flux in the stationery coil
which is wrapped around a toroid core.
It can be (he shows) a stick instead of a toroid,
but last week when I got my inductance meter, I saw with my own eyes how much more you get from the toroid.
It is worth any extra trouble, for sure.

So, yes, you have been doing this at least since you joined this thread.

So, did you ever get the help you needed?
You had such a lot of voltage from so little turns, but unfortunately,
I couldn't answer your question.

I hope you did.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on August 23, 2009, 06:34:06 PM

@stprue

I am glad you found this , even if one youtube at the end of his third video he dose state no OU, i feel his experiment is not conclusive because he is missing the most important part.

I have seen this patent before , claims 1 amps in and 10 amps out , but could not find it anymore , thanks for posting.

http://www.intalek.com/Index/Projects/Patents/DE3024814.pdf

if you look at the patent there is 10 secondary , connected in parallel making it possible to get 10 x out 1 x per coil.

http://www.intalek.com/Papers/Handout3.pdf

This is basically what i have been doing all along , to get the ou it needs a standing magnetic field provided by a magnet.

Also this http://www.rexresearch.com/meyernmr/meyer.htm

i have posted this before verified claims 1 watt in 30 watt out.

it work from the nuclear reaction for some iron isotope(56) (copper work but could be better), it sound worst then it is actually it means the reaction under electro magnetic stress it becomes magnetic.

Based on the last input from SM his device works from this same reaction...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 23, 2009, 06:44:56 PM

;D

la de da...... ::) Lol ;D

hehehehe awesome mk1

;D

sounds like the good old trick to me ;)

ist!

guys i started a new thred anyone wanna help build it winter is comeing faster than we think ...

so i want to make a heater jt unit for everyone ...

it should be easly done stpure your windings ... wanna help ... just all in 1 unit .. like 1 core 2.5 v few amps driveing the thing ... ill get on this too soon

i have plans of building things all fall and winter for next spring ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 23, 2009, 07:19:11 PM

MK1
Did you verify the claims yourself?

You know it was Faraday who tried and tried to find electricity coming from a steady magnetic field and he found he could not.

Are you saying you have found how to do that?
I do not think sticking a magnet onto a pulsing magnetic field is the same thing, but is that what you mean by standing magnet?
I have found that adding a magnet increases frequency and lowers voltage.
I personally believe higher frequency actually means we need less amps, so it may work.

@ist,
Have you been able to get heat from less than the watt cost of a standard heater?
I watched your spark heaters and It got me thinking a lot about immersion heaters, but in those videos you were using so much power, it was hard to see if what you were doing was more efficient??
Was it?

I found what you were showing very hopeful, but I was not too sure about the power use.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on August 23, 2009, 07:33:24 PM

Quote from: jeanna on August 23, 2009, 07:19:11 PM
MK1
Did you verify the claims yourself?

You know it was Faraday who tried and tried to find electricity coming from a steady magnetic field and he found he could not.

Are you saying you have found how to do that?
I do not think sticking a magnet onto a pulsing magnetic field is the same thing, but is that what you mean by standing magnet?
I have found that adding a magnet increases frequency and lowers voltage.
I personally believe higher frequency actually means we need less amps, so it may work.

First the claims have been verified publicly in a electronic magazine . 1970s french i read . included in the last post.

Also faraday its old stuff ... he did find the kick.

But check this out .

http://www.nequaquamvacuum.com/en/english-section/alt-sci/12-magnetic-current-radio-craft-1944.html

Also in the last post the standing field is not generating , it create the environment needed to direct the full energy out of the oscillation to the pickup coil ...

But hans coler did provide the engilsh gouvernement with proof that energy can directly generated by magnets.

http://www.intalek.com/Index/Projects/Research/HansColer/Photos/coler2.jpg

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 23, 2009, 08:29:27 PM

Mark,
I only asked you if YOU have been able to do it.

I do not mind seeing patents but if a person I know has actually done something it is much more valuable to me than a drawing.

I cannot understand that cohler drawing.

A changing magnetic field is all around us all the time.
We use a changing magnetic field in our circuits.
Your MK1 - MK16 secondaries make the magnetic field change MORE times per input pulse than a plain solenoid.

Faraday may be old stuff but its application in the circuit we are working with is not old.

We are working on an old law in a new way. Tesla is old too. but his discoveries have mostly not been tried either. Only when they are used at a low frequency with high amps.

Have you been successful with the cohler patent?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on August 23, 2009, 08:41:15 PM

@jeanna

I did not go the coler way yet , but i am not willing to stop at faraday ...

As you must realize my search is jt more in the mayer ball park ...

And for the solenoid comment , not really relevant since the coil is pulsed by external means .

I and just keeping a open mind ... that thing shut off very quickly if no precaution are taken .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on August 23, 2009, 09:56:29 PM

Quote from: xee2 on August 23, 2009, 10:11:24 AM
To anyone thinking of using a flyback transformer:

I know this has already been said, but it is worth saying again. These things are extremely dangerous. Yucca was putting in 10 watts of power (20v @ 500ma) and in my experience the JT is about 10-20% efficient. Thus, even at 10% efficiency he had over 1 watt of power coming out at more than 10,000 volts. This is VERY DANGEROUS.

Xee
20 V ?

That got me thinking a little.

:)

Almost all of my stuff has been with a single AA so far
I have played with higher voltages a little .
I have a couple of pictures showing how I set it up .
I labeled some stuff hopefully it the pictures will explain themselves.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 24, 2009, 07:44:18 AM

Quote from: jeanna on August 23, 2009, 07:19:11 PM
MK1
Did you verify the claims yourself?

You know it was Faraday who tried and tried to find electricity coming from a steady magnetic field and he found he could not.

Are you saying you have found how to do that?
I do not think sticking a magnet onto a pulsing magnetic field is the same thing, but is that what you mean by standing magnet?
I have found that adding a magnet increases frequency and lowers voltage.
I personally believe higher frequency actually means we need less amps, so it may work.

@ist,
Have you been able to get heat from less than the watt cost of a standard heater?
I watched your spark heaters and It got me thinking a lot about immersion heaters, but in those videos you were using so much power, it was hard to see if what you were doing was more efficient??
Was it?

I found what you were showing very hopeful, but I was not too sure about the power use.

jeanna

a good test for you would be to try it jeanna ... :)

of course there is MUCH MORE POWER THERE ...

can you melt a carbon rod with 68 watts?

68 watts is nothing when your CURRENTLY PAYING 1000W TO DO THE SAME THING..

AND MY LAST RESPONCE ON THIS MATTER .... IS JUST THIS ...

DID EDDISIONS GENERATORS KILL PEOPLE .... ?

IST!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 24, 2009, 08:16:52 AM

@resonanceman

Quote from: resonanceman on August 23, 2009, 09:56:29 PM
Almost all of my stuff has been with a single AA so far

I have gone up to 9 volts so far. I got up to 3,000 volts with the AA and 16,000 with a 9 volt transistor radio battery. But, I think with what you have it may not be safe to use more than the AA. I am just using clip leads, but all of the wires are spaced far apart.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tagor on August 24, 2009, 09:36:49 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on August 23, 2009, 07:33:24 PM
First the claims have been verified publicly in a electronic magazine . 1970s french i read . included in the last post.

I have spoke a lot on " la synergetique" , D'Hoker , naudin's VSG and so on :

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=4744.msg98997#msg98997

there is no verification on this device or others similars devices

look at this thread :

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=1310.msg10528#msg10528

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on August 24, 2009, 11:03:34 AM

Quote from: jeanna on August 23, 2009, 05:55:41 PM
Welcome back stprue!
I am glad to see you.

About this video.
I would say we all have been doing this all along on this thread.
We are using a joule thief circuit to produce pulses which
change the magnetic flux in the stationery coil
which is wrapped around a toroid core.
It can be (he shows) a stick instead of a toroid,
but last week when I got my inductance meter, I saw with my own eyes how much more you get from the toroid.
It is worth any extra trouble, for sure.

So, yes, you have been doing this at least since you joined this thread.

So, did you ever get the help you needed?
You had such a lot of voltage from so little turns, but unfortunately,
I couldn't answer your question.

I hope you did.

jeanna

I kinda got my questions ansewered, I want to make a tube video to show this coil but I have been very busy with work lately. If anything it will show people a way to use a 10 second pulse to get about 20 minutes of led energy out. I have been following the don smith thread and I'm very interested in what Yucca is doing over there. I think I may start tinkering with this tech but I still want to try one last solar JT idea before switching over for a while.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on August 24, 2009, 11:13:51 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on August 23, 2009, 06:34:06 PM
@stprue

I am glad you found this , even if one youtube at the end of his third video he dose state no OU, i feel his experiment is not conclusive because he is missing the most important part.

I have seen this patent before , claims 1 amps in and 10 amps out , but could not find it anymore , thanks for posting.

http://www.intalek.com/Index/Projects/Patents/DE3024814.pdf

if you look at the patent there is 10 secondary , connected in parallel making it possible to get 10 x out 1 x per coil.

http://www.intalek.com/Papers/Handout3.pdf

This is basically what i have been doing all along , to get the ou it needs a standing magnetic field provided by a magnet.

Also this http://www.rexresearch.com/meyernmr/meyer.htm

i have posted this before verified claims 1 watt in 30 watt out.

it work from the nuclear reaction for some iron isotope(56) (copper work but could be better), it sound worst then it is actually it means the reaction under electro magnetic stress it becomes magnetic.

Based on the last input from SM his device works from this same reaction...

Wow thanks for all the additional infos! I have heard about iron going through some sort of reaction like you stated...I wonder what the long term effects would be on the iron???

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on August 24, 2009, 11:16:23 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on August 23, 2009, 06:44:56 PM

it should be easly done stpure your windings ... wanna help ... just all in 1 unit .. like 1 core 2.5 v few amps driveing the thing ... ill get on this too soon

i have plans of building things all fall and winter for next spring ...

I am excited also...and I have just ordered some high voltage stuff! Can't wait!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 24, 2009, 11:55:38 AM

Quote from: jeanna on August 23, 2009, 07:19:11 PM
MK1
Did you verify the claims yourself?

You know it was Faraday who tried and tried to find electricity coming from a steady magnetic field and he found he could not.

Are you saying you have found how to do that?
I do not think sticking a magnet onto a pulsing magnetic field is the same thing, but is that what you mean by standing magnet?
I have found that adding a magnet increases frequency and lowers voltage.
I personally believe higher frequency actually means we need less amps, so it may work.

@ist,
Have you been able to get heat from less than the watt cost of a standard heater?
I watched your spark heaters and It got me thinking a lot about immersion heaters, but in those videos you were using so much power, it was hard to see if what you were doing was more efficient??
Was it?

I found what you were showing very hopeful, but I was not too sure about the power use.

jeanna

about the comment that is bolded ...

i think he took the wrong aproch ... :)

call it a hunch ... :D

i will touch on this 1 more time ok ...

if you were able to cancel entirely the flow from a good sized neo magnet ... all that would be required to get electricty FROM A MAGNET ONLY WOULD BE THE MAGNET...

hope you understand it ...

that as far as i know is mac's work aswell ..... :)

it is easly done ... ::)

ist!

the only moveing part and there are 2 is the flux from the neo magnet .. and the transistor or reed switch ...

depends if you use an external source to controll it or not ...

the magnet does not move .... you place it there it does its magic remove it.... it stops ...

a few ways this style unit can work ... 8)

neo
----
coil
----
====
steel

ist

think bout it ...

just imagine you had a neo that can lift 200lbs ... and you can stop the force comeing from it ... with out any applyed power then you release it 200lbs of pull flying at the speed of magnetics to the steel it hits the steel you stop it ... and do it agin ...

im sure you can control a transistor to short and un short the coil ... with a small freq genny ...

this is to get rid of the use of a battery as the supply ...

now this could also be done electromagnetically...

basiclly you have a coil putting out a flux ... and another that cancles it ... you turn on and off the canceling winding ... now its a whole new game ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on August 24, 2009, 02:18:09 PM

Quote from: tagor on August 24, 2009, 09:36:49 AM
I have spoke a lot on " la synergetique" , D'Hoker , naudin's VSG and so on :

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=4744.msg98997#msg98997

there is no verification on this device or others similars devices

look at this thread :

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=1310.msg10528#msg10528

Humm ... You can read french ... but thanks for the info anyway.

Merci . Don't you consider a magazine article enough ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 24, 2009, 04:28:02 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on August 24, 2009, 11:55:38 AM

basically you have a coil putting out a flux ... and another that cancels it ... you turn on and off the canceling winding ... now its a whole new game ...

Ist,
Thanks but this is pure Faraday.
If you stop and start the transistor you are changing the magnetic field inside the toroid.
The quicker you stop or start it the MORE voltage you get out of it.
This is the stuff Tesla was undoubtedly calculating in his head. But it was not Tesla, it was Tesla using Faraday in a way the others did not.

I am looking forward to your experiments, but I completely disagree with the use of a signal generator that uses wall power.
I also think if you change from AA to 12 volts or anything else you have lost ALL ability to show a comparison.

So, getting rid of the battery that switched the transistor is exactly what I do not want to do.

Go for it, but I will only read and not do it until you can prove the same thing without the wall source.

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 24, 2009, 04:45:14 PM

My apologies for 2 in a row, but this is such a different topic, I feel I must.

OK remember about 6 weeks ago I made a .MOV file that only a few people wanted to see?
I am not referring to the ones that I linked to zero info by mistake.

I received comments from Bill and Xee2 about how quicktime wreaks havok on their systems etc.

On a macusers forum someone wanted info on showing her movies and was told by the apple specialist that everyone could get quicktime for windows etc. I thought I should mention this problem to them, so other mac users would know the reason for the reluctance etc.

I think I made someone mad, but I will leave that one out of this. I got this information.
I hope it helps:

Quote====

"...when you open a QT movie file on a Windows machine, it asks you if you want to use the QT application for all other similar files. If you say yes, change settings, then yes, QT will become the default player. But, if you say No, it will just open for that one file.

I have several machines with both Windows and Mac, plus I frequently work in all PC environments, and I've NEVER had to reboot, go to Start up, or anything like..."

Quote====

I hope this helps.
I will continue to use youtube. I only posted this for the information.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on August 24, 2009, 06:05:30 PM

@all

Jeanna Yucca check this tread

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7978.msg198505#new

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on August 24, 2009, 09:47:25 PM

Quote from: xee2 on August 24, 2009, 08:16:52 AM
@resonanceman

I have gone up to 9 volts so far. I got up to 3,000 volts with the AA and 16,000 with a 9 volt transistor radio battery. But, I think with what you have it may not be safe to use more than the AA. I am just using clip leads, but all of the wires are spaced far apart.

Xee

I agree

With a AA battery I can get more voltage than I care to try to measure .

My experments driving a JT with higher voltage are about getting more power out ........ High voltage or big sparks do not interest me unless they are part of a process of making real power .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 24, 2009, 10:37:19 PM

Gary,
ARE you getting more power out when you start with more volts?
In my jt experiments, if I try a 3v battery instead of a 1.2v which is a rare curiosity experiment, I do not get higher voltage out. I get higher frequency, but even that is not much higher.

It seems to me there are 2 special things going on.

1- the basic joule thief toroid with the transistor cutting on and off, then

2- the secondary which derives its output from the toroid and other than that, has little if anything to do with the energy going into the basic jt.
Its power is derived from the inductance it has because of the number of its windings and the oscillations being caused by the EMF of the toroid.

They are together on the same toroid, but are only joined by the magnetic fluctuations. So, a higher input won't make a much higher output unless it changes the rate of oscillations. And, although I have seen it do that with increased frequency, I have not seen much increase in output..
The number of turns and turns ratio to the primary Collector turns is what will increase the secondary in my experience.

Are you also seeing this?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Yucca on August 24, 2009, 11:03:42 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on August 24, 2009, 06:05:30 PM
@all

Jeanna Yucca check this tread

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7978.msg198505#new

I watched those vids a few days before that thread started. IÂ´ve seen this behaviour before in HF and VHF loop antennas. The radio name for devices like those is a "lecher line". Fascinating things.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 24, 2009, 11:26:39 PM

@ jeanna & resonanceman

I am getting better performance with the flyback than I was getting with the toroid. There is no way I could light a fluorescent tube from an AAA battery using only 10 mA with any of my toroids. At 10 mA an AA battery should be able to light the tube for over a week.

EDIT: Ferrite is lossy. The flyback uses an iron core and thus has less loss in core.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 25, 2009, 12:33:23 AM

Ah xee2, there is a good challenge!
I am not interested in using a manufactured chip product so I would want to wind it myself.

@Mk1 (particularly),

As you may remember I just purchased a LC meter.
I have spent some time cataloging my many hand wound toroids and I would like to describe briefly ?? if I can

The inductance for half the bifilar primary is often 1/4 rather than 1/2 of the combined bifilar.
So, the inherent multiple directions is making a greater difference than the number of turns by itself.
There must be other factors at work too, because I cannot make a rule out of just the turns and number of directions, but it is consistently this.
Now, remember this is not a selection of randomly made toroids. They have all been shown to be good performers.
I have some that are bad performers and I will look at them separately.

Now here is a sweet bit for the MK1 and MK2 pickups.

They provide the same bonus inductance that I see with the primary bifilar windings.

I might be making a table for myself so I can study the numbers and I know unless I do that it is too difficult for me to explain and for people to understand.

But I must say that the inductance of the MK1 is amazing but the MK2 when all lines are connected is even more.

For instance the separate legs of the primary are each about .080mH and add up to NOT .160 but .320mH

Then each half of the MK2 which by itself is a single wire just like a MK1 measures
8mH and together they are
NOT 16mH but
34mH

I still need time to digest this, but I thought some of you guys would like a chance to hear about it too.

jeanna

I am thinking the value in all this information might be to guide us in the choice of a capacitor to use to aid the oscillations that WANT to express themselves. If we do not change the other parts of the circuit by a factor of 4 (not 2) we may be choking the inductor and not able to get full benefit for this reason.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 25, 2009, 02:14:58 AM

@ jeanna

Inductance of coil increases as square of turns. Thus doubling turns produces four time inductance.

Equations here: http://www.phys.uri.edu/~gerhard/PHY204/tsl267.pdf

chart here: http://www.gqrp.com/toroid_inductance_chart.pdf

Your measurements seem to confirm theory.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 25, 2009, 02:26:49 AM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on August 25, 2009, 12:33:23 AM
I am not interested in using a manufactured chip product so I would want to wind it myself.

Are you going to take the core out of a flyback and wind your own coils on it? It would be interesting to see how much better the laminated iron core "toroid" works than the ferrite toroid.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tagor on August 25, 2009, 02:43:01 AM

double post

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tagor on August 25, 2009, 02:46:05 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on August 24, 2009, 02:18:09 PM
Humm ... You can read french ... but thanks for the info anyway.

Merci . Don't you consider a magazine article enough ?

you can ask me every thing ( inn french ) in this thread

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=4744.msg98997#msg98997

a lot of people tried to replicate the D'HOKER device
but no OU !!

this magazine is a very bad scentific magazine , no proof

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on August 25, 2009, 01:06:57 PM

Quote from: jeanna on August 24, 2009, 10:37:19 PM
Gary,
ARE you getting more power out when you start with more volts?
In my jt experiments, if I try a 3v battery instead of a 1.2v which is a rare curiosity experiment, I do not get higher voltage out. I get higher frequency, but even that is not much higher.

It seems to me there are 2 special things going on.

1- the basic joule thief toroid with the transistor cutting on and off, then

2- the secondary which derives its output from the toroid and other than that, has little if anything to do with the energy going into the basic jt.
Its power is derived from the inductance it has because of the number of its windings and the oscillations being caused by the EMF of the toroid.

They are together on the same toroid, but are only joined by the magnetic fluctuations. So, a higher input won't make a much higher output unless it changes the rate of oscillations. And, although I have seen it do that with increased frequency, I have not seen much increase in output..
The number of turns and turns ratio to the primary Collector turns is what will increase the secondary in my experience.

Are you also seeing this?

jeanna

Jeanna

I have noticed that .

IF .... you are using a normal toroid JT ........and your core is reaching saturation with a AA battery I would not expect to get much more out of it with higher voltage .

A JT would have to be tuned for running at the higher voltage .

A JT made with a different kind of coil like a MOT or flyback transformer would be much more likely to produce higher power with higher voltage .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 25, 2009, 04:54:36 PM

Quote from: xee2 on August 25, 2009, 02:14:58 AM
@ jeanna

Inductance of coil increases as square of turns. Thus doubling turns produces four time inductance.

Equations here: http://www.phys.uri.edu/~gerhard/PHY204/tsl267.pdf

chart here: http://www.gqrp.com/toroid_inductance_chart.pdf

Your measurements seem to confirm theory.

Thanks for those links, xee2.
I am not sure how what I see is confirming the N² part.

I just wound 18 turns on the same toroid with a wire and tested each turn for inductance. So, this puzzles me.
if I look at the difference of inductance from 4 T to 16T it does not double at all. Nor does it square.

N=2, L=.012mH
N=4, L=.041mH
N=16, L=.62mH

What am I not understanding here? (thank goodness for calculators!)
If I understand the formula ... ;D ,
L will change linearly as the square of the number of turns.
So a straight line should be formed by plotting the inductance values of 2T, 4T, 16T. Is that what this is saying?

I just plotted it and I see not a straight line but a gentle curve that steepens as I add turns.

I will appreciate the answer to this. I think I can understand it if you keep it simple, which I believe you can.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 25, 2009, 05:10:23 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on August 25, 2009, 04:54:36 PM
I am not sure how what I see is confirming the N² part.

N1=2 turns, L=.012mH
N2=4 turns, L=.041mH

N2 turns = 2 x N1 turns
2 squared is 4
4 x 0.012mH = 0.048mH
You got 0.041 (fairly close, there was probably some measurement error)

N3=16 turns = 8 X N1 turns
8 squared = 64
64 X 0.021 = 0.768
You got 0.62 (again close, your mH value for N1 is probably a bit high)

The increase in inductance is equal to the square of the increase in turns.
If you increase the turns by 2 you will increase the inductance by 4.

note....... 4 = 2 squared

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on August 25, 2009, 05:44:01 PM

Quote from: tagor on August 25, 2009, 02:46:05 AM
you can ask me every thing ( inn french ) in this thread

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=4744.msg98997#msg98997

a lot of people tried to replicate the D'HOKER device
but no OU !!

this magazine is a very bad scentific magazine , no proof

Tell me in the replication where did they get iron isotope 56 , or where could get i get some ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 25, 2009, 06:06:07 PM

@ Mk1

Google gives this:

Iron-56 is the most common isotope of iron. About 91.754% of all iron is iron-56.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 25, 2009, 08:06:12 PM

@ jeanna

I do not know if you remember, but some time ago I gave you this formula for calculating inductance of coils on the 3.38" toroids. Now that you have an inductance meter it would be interesting to see how accurate it is.

For 3.38" toroids only:

millihenries = 0.01104 x (number of turns)^2

where the "(number of turns)^2" means "number of turns squared"

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 25, 2009, 09:04:45 PM

Quote from: xee2 on August 25, 2009, 08:06:12 PM

I count 27 turns
27 x 27 = 729
729 x 0.01104 = 8.048 mH

The meter reads 5.65mH

So, I did it again

4T
4 x 4 = 16T
16 x .01104 =0.1766mH

the meter reads
0.126mH

The problem I am having with the equation is it seems recursive to me.
If N= the number of turns then 7 turns = 7 and N²=49. But somehow it is supposed to be 49 x the inductance... but wait a minute I am solving for inductance??

aargh!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on August 25, 2009, 09:06:52 PM

Quote from: xee2 on August 25, 2009, 06:06:07 PM
@ Mk1

Google gives this:

Iron-56 is the most common isotope of iron. About 91.754% of all iron is iron-56.

Thanks Xee

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 25, 2009, 10:20:12 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: xee2 on August 25, 2009, 08:06:12 PM
For 3.38" toroids only:

millihenries = 0.01104 x (number of turns)^2

where the "(number of turns)^2" means "number of turns squared"

The 0.01104 is suppose to be the inductance of a single turn. But it does not seem to be correct. You can make a similar equation for any toroid. Just measure the inductance of 10 turns and divide that number by 100. That should be the inductance of a single turn. Then the inductance of any number of turns can be found using:

inductance of N turns = (inductance of single turn) x (number of turns squared)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 25, 2009, 10:40:49 PM

Thank you xee2,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on August 26, 2009, 08:59:57 PM

@all

I just got a idea , what if we used a motor to pulse a toroid ...

One motor should pulse the dc , in a square wave , plus if we use 2 motor we can have 2 freq.

The same energy will pluse the toroid plus get free rotation ( could be reused ) plus no need for transistor .

Any idea?

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PARAV on August 26, 2009, 09:03:44 PM

Quote from: jeanna on August 25, 2009, 10:40:49 PM
Thank you xee2,

jeanna

Jeanna

Could this be of any help to you in calculating the inductances ?

http://www.captain.at/electronics/coils/

or

http://www.crystalradio.net/cal/indcal.shtml

or for spiral (pancake coils)

http://www.csgnetwork.com/spiralcoilinduccalc.html

Hope this helps

Parav

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 26, 2009, 09:22:27 PM

Thank you PARAV,
I actually have crystal radio on my bookmarks, and I use it. Thank you.

My problem has been that I do not know the permeability of my favorite toroids, but that is now solved with the meter.

I have been studying Walter Lewin for the past week.
I have to brush up on everything to do this, but I am willing. Especially with a guy who shouts that the Kirchoff rule is merely a special case of Farady's law, and he lectures on and describes so well many things we are doing here.
He has a nice open twist to his approach.
It takes a very brave man to teach out of the box as he is doing. I am loving understanding what I have been doing.

Things have been a little slow here at the joule thief thread, and this is the perfect time to study physics, along with adding inductors to my earth battery, of course!

Thanks again,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 26, 2009, 10:22:27 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on August 26, 2009, 08:59:57 PM
@all

I just got a idea , what if we used a motor to pulse a toroid ...

One motor should pulse the dc , in a square wave , plus if we use 2 motor we can have 2 freq.

The same energy will pluse the toroid plus get free rotation ( could be reused ) plus no need for transistor .

Any idea?

Mark

Mark:

I have never heard of anyone doing this before so, you may be the first.

It sounds like a great idea to me. I am not sure I know enough to attempt it but, I think I see what you are getting at and it sounds good from here. Nice thinking.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dllabarre on August 26, 2009, 11:58:10 PM

Quote from: jeanna on August 26, 2009, 09:22:27 PM

I have been studying Walter Lewin for the past week.
I have to brush up on everything to do this, but I am willing. Especially with a guy who shouts that the Kirchoff rule is merely a special case of Farady's law, and he lectures on and describes so well many things we are doing here.
He has a nice open twist to his approach.
It takes a very brave man to teach out of the box as he is doing. I am loving understanding what I have been doing.

jeanna

I've watch several videos already tonight.
Now I'm hooked on this guy!!! ;D

"and he lectures on and describes so well many things we are doing here"
Which lecture are you referring to here?

Thanks,
DonL

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 27, 2009, 12:49:44 AM

I have watched from 16 to 25. Tonight it was 22-25. I really like what I am learning from him. wow.

Did you find more in any others?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 27, 2009, 08:52:44 AM

Quote from: jeanna on August 24, 2009, 04:28:02 PM
Ist,
Thanks but this is pure Faraday.
If you stop and start the transistor you are changing the magnetic field inside the toroid.
The quicker you stop or start it the MORE voltage you get out of it.
This is the stuff Tesla was undoubtedly calculating in his head. But it was not Tesla, it was Tesla using Faraday in a way the others did not.

I am looking forward to your experiments, but I completely disagree with the use of a signal generator that uses wall power.
I also think if you change from AA to 12 volts or anything else you have lost ALL ability to show a comparison.

So, getting rid of the battery that switched the transistor is exactly what I do not want to do.

Go for it, but I will only read and not do it until you can prove the same thing without the wall source.

Thank you,

jeanna

i do not agree with you on this jeanna ...

but its ok ...

i dont think you understand what im saying in my post ...

;D

if you do ... well ... congrats ..

basically im saying you need power to switch off and on the transistor ... that is all .. what ever the transistor uses ... the OUTPUT IS FROM THE MAGNET ... TAKE THE MAGIC MAGNET AWAY ... IT WILL NOT PRODUCE ANY POWER REPLACE IT.... IT WILL MAKE A SHIFTING MAGNETIC FEILD WICH YOU CAN TAP ...

bla bla ...

im just guessing this aint for everyone .....

::)

i also said NOTHING ABOUT PLUGGING A SIG GEN TO THE WALL....

none the less ... im not worried ... i know fully well how to build WHATEVER I WANT TO BUILD ... ;D

W

IM ALL MOVED NOW ... ;D and setting up my new shop ... oooo the space .... ;D

i would expect to be BACK IN BUILD MODE BY THE START OF NEXT WEEK ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 27, 2009, 08:56:48 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on August 26, 2009, 08:59:57 PM
@all

I just got a idea , what if we used a motor to pulse a toroid ...

One motor should pulse the dc , in a square wave , plus if we use 2 motor we can have 2 freq.

The same energy will pluse the toroid plus get free rotation ( could be reused ) plus no need for transistor .

Any idea?

Mark

OZONE GENERATOR .... TESLA ....

IST!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dllabarre on August 27, 2009, 09:59:32 AM

Quote from: jeanna on August 27, 2009, 12:49:44 AM
I have watched from 16 to 25. Tonight it was 22-25. I really like what I am learning from him. wow.

Did you find more in any others?

jeanna

I only found various videos he made.
What is the URL you're using to see upto 25 videos?

Thx
DonL

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 27, 2009, 01:15:00 PM

Quote from: dllabarre on August 27, 2009, 09:59:32 AM
I only found various videos he made.
What is the URL you're using to see upto 25 videos?

Thx
DonL

Don:

There is an entire semester's worth of Dr. Lewin's lectures, each 1 hour long, on Physics course 8.02. I have seen like 40 of his lectures so far. These are listed on the MIT website directly, or, you can find a few on Youtube, some of which are cut down to the 10 minute limit. Others on Youtube are the full hour.

If I can find the link real quick, I will post it here, otherwise I will do it later.

http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Physics/8-01Physics-IFall1999/VideoLectures/

This has 35 lectures but, I will try to find 8.02 as well. (The above link is for 8.01)

http://search.mit.edu/search?__EVENTTARGET=&__EVENTARGUMENT=&site=ocw&client=mit&getfields=*&output=xml_no_dtd&proxystylesheet=http%3A%2F%2Focw.mit.edu%2FOcwWeb%2Fsearch%2Fgoogle-ocw.xsl&proxyreload=1&as_dt=i&oe=utf-8&departmentName=web&courseName=&q=Walter+Lewin&btnG.x=0&btnG.y=0

OK, the above link also has 8.02.

There is a lot of information in these lectures, and I think I even have more saved on my computer somewhere. I hope this helps.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dllabarre on August 27, 2009, 01:47:57 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on August 27, 2009, 01:15:00 PM
Don:

There is an entire semester's worth of Dr. Lewin's lectures, each 1 hour long, on Physics course 8.02.

There is a lot of information in these lectures, and I think I even have more saved on my computer somewhere. I hope this helps.

Bill

This is great!

Thank you,
DonL

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 27, 2009, 02:31:08 PM

he sure is 1 cool dude ... eh!

lol

ist!

good thing for guys like him ....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 27, 2009, 02:42:30 PM

I do not understand what is wrong with the way the page gets drawn.
Is nobody else having the screen 4 full pages wide today?
This time there is no picture to make it happen.
I cannot stand scrolling left and right just to read a small sentence.

Thanks to all who have added frequent line breaks.

DonL
I first go to this page, then I get access to all of them on the right.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3eI4SVDyME (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3eI4SVDyME)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dllabarre on August 27, 2009, 03:30:42 PM

Quote from: jeanna on August 27, 2009, 02:42:30 PM
I do not understand what is wrong with the way the page gets drawn.
Is nobody else having the screen 4 full pages wide today?
This time there is no picture to make it happen.
I cannot stand scrolling left and right just to read a small sentence.

Thanks to all who have added frequent line breaks.

DonL
I first go to this page, then I get access to all of them on the right.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3eI4SVDyME (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3eI4SVDyME)

jeanna

I only have the scrolling when there is a wide picture on the page.
This page is fine for me.

DonL

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 27, 2009, 04:01:10 PM

I wish Stephan could make the website behave the way it did before his vacation.

EDIT
I just opened firefox.
It makes the difference today, (it did not before?)
unless Stephan just fixed it.

My apologies for the trash.
Thanks for the help.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on August 28, 2009, 12:22:16 AM

hello
i'm new to all this joule theif stuff but
i made a air coil jt 7 months ago of 10 turns of 16 awg speaker wire ...5 turns and then 5 turns back over
then the standard jt wire up and then wrap two turns of 18awg wire around the outside in the same direction to make 2.1 volts and it will light 4 leds to near full power .. these are 10 mm leds of 265,000mcd 100ma's http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16642 (http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16642)
this is a 0ne 1.5 volt input of a c batterie or aa batterie

i need to post a pic.. but i didn't cause i think i have probably just done something noobie
that everyone else has already done.. i was wanting to read the input ma's but my multimeter only reads
0.001 ma all the time on this rig ..so it's probably broke

i forgot to say was the air coil is about 4 inches in diameter

let me know how i can improve this cause it seems to put out the same ma's no matter how many turns of secondarys.. i sure i wrong on that but i think my meter is broke

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 28, 2009, 12:47:14 AM

kooler:

Hey, and welcome.

Post what you have and don't worry about it may having been done before. This stuff is so out there that, possibly you did something we missed. You never know. This is a great group of folks here that want to see actual experiments so, jump right in.

You are using the same leds I have used in many of my experiments. These put out a lot of light but take a lot more to get going. Good for you.

I look forward to seeing your experiments.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on August 28, 2009, 02:29:48 AM

Quote from: kooler on August 28, 2009, 12:22:16 AM
hello
i'm new to all this joule theif stuff but
i made a air coil jt 7 months ago of 10 turns of 16 awg speaker wire ...5 turns and then 5 turns back over
then the standard jt wire up and then wrap two turns of 18awg wire around the outside in the same direction to make 2.1 volts and it will light 4 leds to near full power .. these are 10 mm leds of 265,000mcd 100ma's http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16642 (http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16642)
this is a 0ne 1.5 volt input of a c batterie or aa batterie

i need to post a pic.. but i didn't cause i think i have probably just done something noobie
that everyone else has already done.. i was wanting to read the input ma's but my multimeter only reads
0.001 ma all the time on this rig ..so it's probably broke

i forgot to say was the air coil is about 4 inches in diameter

let me know how i can improve this cause it seems to put out the same ma's no matter how many turns of secondarys.. i sure i wrong on that but i think my meter is broke

Welcome , please post anything worth doing is worth posting.

I have a idea for you make one air coil jt long enough so you could bend it into a toroid , a air coil in a toroidal shape, with the other one inside .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 28, 2009, 07:16:49 AM

welcome to the middle of the mix kooler

post it away ... ;D

what you have done sounds intresting ..

throw your fears in the sea of no cares ... ;) you ve done it now ... 8)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNDNoxGU3vQ

its all been done b4 ... just not this time round yet .. ;)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 28, 2009, 02:46:52 PM

Quote from: kooler on August 28, 2009, 12:22:16 AM
...
i made a air coil jt 7 months ago of 10 turns of 16 awg speaker wire ...5 turns and then 5 turns back over
then the standard jt wire up and then wrap two turns of 18awg wire around the outside in the same direction to make 2.1 volts ...
this is a 0ne 1.5 volt input of a c batterie or aa batterie

i need to post a pic.. but i didn't cause i think i have probably just done something noobie
that everyone else has already done.. i was wanting to read the input ma's but my multimeter only reads
0.001 ma all the time on this rig ..so it's probably broke

i forgot to say was the air coil is about 4 inches in diameter

let me know how i can improve this cause it seems to put out the same ma's no matter how many turns of secondarys.. i sure i wrong on that but i think my meter is broke

Welcome Kooler,

It may be broken, or not.
the secondary takes little or no more amps than the primary.

The primary joule thief which is made up of the
battery
transistor
base resistor
center tapped bifilar winding
is using the battery mostly to turn the transistor on and off as a switch.
The secondary takes little to no more than what the primary takes.
The secondary produces power from the voltage pulses which were created by the primary. (that is how I see it, anyway)

So, be assured, you are doing just fine!
If you have a pic, I would like to see it/them.

I made an air core about 6 months ago and I had little to no results at all, so I am quite curious.
I just recently bought an induction meter and it is very easy for me to see almost no like 3uH in an aircore when the same thing with an iron core has 9uH but the same thing with a ferrite has 30uH.

I am very curious to see your results.

I love to see other people's pictures!

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on August 28, 2009, 08:58:24 PM

ok
once i get my camera charged i will post some pics
of it lighting 4 10mm leds with a triple a batt

oh i told you guys wrong . i torn it down to count the turns
it has 21 turns and three layers of 7 in a row

and it is a toroid shape of 2.5 inches tall and 4-5 inches in diameter

hope this helps to picture it ,till i get a picture of it

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 28, 2009, 09:29:10 PM

# kooler

Quote from: kooler on August 28, 2009, 08:58:24 PM
hope this helps to picture it ,till i get a picture of it

Sounds interesting. I am looking forward to seeing your photos.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dllabarre on August 29, 2009, 12:04:39 AM

I put an AA battery that was 1.2 volts on my JT 3 weeks ago. It's now down to 288mV and the 3 red LEDs are still lit (dim of course).

DonL

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dllabarre on August 29, 2009, 10:26:40 AM

This may help you to visualize.
http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_9/5.html

Scroll down the page of the above link to the example of boosting.
This is what I believe is happening with the Joule Thief.

DonL

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 29, 2009, 01:18:32 PM

@ dllabarre

Quote from: dllabarre on August 29, 2009, 12:04:39 AM
I put an AA battery that was 1.2 volts on my JT 3 weeks ago. It's now down to 288mV and the 3 red LEDs are still lit (dim of course).

DonL

Thanks for the info and diagram. That should not be possible since the transistor needs about 0.5 volts between B and E to work. But you are doing it. That is very interesting. You are getting a silicon transistor to work off of almost as low a voltage as a germanium. Will it start again if it is stopped?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 29, 2009, 01:59:08 PM

Xee2:

That is a good question. My guess is that if he stops it, it may have to be "jump started" since he is already below what the transistor is supposed to require.

If it does not start again, maybe he could take another AA and hook it into the circuit and then, once running, remove it?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dllabarre on August 29, 2009, 02:17:29 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on August 29, 2009, 01:59:08 PM
Xee2:

That is a good question. My guess is that if he stops it, it may have to be "jump started" since he is already below what the transistor is supposed to require.

If it does not start again, maybe he could take another AA and hook it into the circuit and then, once running, remove it?

Bill

I disconnected the battery for 10 seconds.
Reconnected the battery and the LEDs did not restart.
I watched the battery as it "bounced" back to 351mV then the LEDs lit up real bright. Then of course the battery started dropping back to where it was ~284mV and the LEDs are dimmer again but still lit.

DonL

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on August 29, 2009, 02:19:20 PM

ok
i finally got some pics

http://img195.imageshack.us/i/1020716.jpg/ (http://img195.imageshack.us/i/1020716.jpg/)

http://img15.imageshack.us/i/1020717.jpg/ (http://img15.imageshack.us/i/1020717.jpg/)

the secondary windings are speaker wire also... three turns almost..
and the jt circuit has a 1k resistor and a small cap across the batt
with a little over 2 volts showing
what i am trying to figure out is why the leds are lit but have a forward voltage of 3.4 at 100ma's

thanks,
robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 29, 2009, 03:07:10 PM

Quote from: kooler on August 29, 2009, 02:19:20 PM
ok
i finally got some pics

the secondary windings are speaker wire also... three turns almost..

what i am trying to figure out is why the leds are lit but have a forward voltage of 3.4 at 100ma's

Good job robbie,

I think there are a few reasons the lights are lit.

First- you are not able to see how high the voltage spikes really are on your DMM.
So, you probably have spikes that are at least 12 volts high.
Perhaps more, although with only 3 turns maybe just 12v.
You might have a pretty high frequency of spikes too.
That frequency is determined by the resistor at the base of the transistor plus some other things.

Second- these super bright are partly regular leds and partly they are something else like teeny fluorescent bulbs.

The lights are actually blue and they paint the fluorescent paint on them which is yellow to add to the blue to show white.
But now since this is fluorescent paint, it can behave that way IF you give it high enough voltage.
You don't need eeven the milliamps of the usual led.

I have seen mine work in 2 directions. Not often but in some circuits.

So, there is my take on it, for what that is worth.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on August 29, 2009, 03:19:09 PM

Quote from: jeanna on August 29, 2009, 03:07:10 PM
Good job robbie,

I think there are a few reasons the lights are lit.

First- you are not able to see how high the voltage spikes really are on your DMM.
So, you probably have spikes that are at least 12 volts high.
Perhaps more, although with only 3 turns maybe just 12v.
You might have a pretty high frequency of spikes too.
That frequency is determined by the resistor at the base of the transistor plus some other things.

Second- these super bright are partly regular leds and partly they are something else like teeny fluorescent bulbs.

The lights are actually blue and they paint the fluorescent paint on them which is yellow to add to the blue to show white.
But now since this is fluorescent paint, it can behave that way IF you give it high enough voltage.
You don't need eeven the milliamps of the usual led.

I have seen mine work in 2 directions. Not often but in some circuits.

So, there is my take on it, for what that is worth.

jeanna

You are right Jeanna, this is why the leds light for him!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on August 29, 2009, 03:30:01 PM

nice
i know those big leds are bright

off subject for abit but jeanna where you get your induction meter
i am going to try to build something like the hendershot motor soon
hendershot and stubblefield combo
i thinking my problem with my crappy output is due to my quessing the henry of each coil

i dont have much tools .. i just started learning electronics for about 10 months now

more to come,
robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: forest on August 29, 2009, 05:02:13 PM

Maybe a stupid question, but I dare not to read all 933 posts before asking : did somebody tried to close loop joule thief of any mod of it ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 29, 2009, 05:50:28 PM

Quote from: kooler on August 29, 2009, 03:30:01 PM
...

off subject for abit but jeanna where you get your induction meter
i am going to try to build something like the hendershot motor soon
hendershot and stubblefield combo
i thinking my problem with my crappy output is due to my quessing the henry of each coil

MCMelectronics.com
Tenma 72-8155
http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/TENMA-72-8155-/72-8155 (http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/TENMA-72-8155-/72-8155)
It ended up costing $65, with shipping $52.95 +12.00 I think. I think it was well worth it because I was stuck. It helped to unstick me.!

I better find out what a hendershot motor is. I haven't made a bedini motor yet.

BTW I believe your results have to do with lack of ferrite core. It shows up on that meter as amazing.
Even iron is lousy next to ferrite, but as you will see with stubblefield (Yeay another person interested in stubblefield!) you can use soft iron.
If you really do not want to use ferrite, perhaps you could try an iron wire.
I got some black annealed iron wire at my hardware store when I made my stubblefield coils, and it shows a stronger inductance on the meter than air but still much less than ferrite.
You can also use a spool of tie wire for rebar. It comes in a spool about 4" diameter.

It would be interesting to see your big set up made with part or all iron wire for the core. I would be very curious to see this.

====
@forest

Quotedid somebody tried to close loop joule thief of any mod of it ?

What is that?
Maybe xee2 did, if it means joining the secondary to the battery?
I better just wait for your answer.
thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kamax on August 29, 2009, 07:56:17 PM

Hi, i have found a strange effect with my joule thief. Maybe it's useless but..well.

I have connected my earth cell in a pot to my joule thief but the power was not strong enough to light or blink the led as usual. So i wanted to shortcut my resistor with a wire and when i have touched on side of the resistor, the led has blink. It was the side between resistor and base transistor, the other side don't work.

I have take my camera to make a video but i note that i need to wait some minutes to do it again. Probably the time the capacitor has enough energy. And while moving the joule thief around to find if it has something to do with the joule thief on the soil or not, i note that if i shake it, it just "recharge" faster.

I think when i connect the wire, it pump some energy from the capacitor. The other side of the wire is connected to nothing.

Here is a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qol7zbG7loM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qol7zbG7loM)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 29, 2009, 08:24:05 PM

@ kamax

Where is the capacitor? Is it where the battery would be in a normal JT? What value is your capacitor. Thanks for posting this and the video. I assume that there is no battery so that you are actually getting free energy from somewhere (maybe your muscles when you shake it). Do you know the kind of toroid you have. I would like to try to duplicate your results.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kamax on August 29, 2009, 08:59:27 PM

I don't use a normal battery, just a earth cell in a pot(copper and a screw). You can see it on the beginning of the video, the initial power come from here, but it's very weak and never blink the led if i do nothing.

The cap is a 1000ÂµF 6.3V connected in parallel to the cell. The resistor is a 1K ohm and the transistor a 2N2222A. For the toroide i just know it a ferrite and width ~13mm.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 29, 2009, 10:14:11 PM

@ kamax

I am stumped. I took a coil and hooked it to a peak voltage detector and shook it. I was able to get over half a volt but it was drained quickly by the internal capacitor resistance. You must have a very good capacitor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kamax on August 29, 2009, 10:38:28 PM

I'm not sure you have the same setup as mine, was your coil a part of a joule thief ? I suppose when i shake mine it just boost the energy coming from my earth cell who give continuously a little amount of power(~0.6V and less that 1mA).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 29, 2009, 10:49:04 PM

Quote from: kamax on August 29, 2009, 10:38:28 PM
I'm not sure you have the same setup as mine, was your coil a part of a joule thief ? I suppose when i shake mine it just boost the energy coming from my earth cell who give continuously a little amount of power(~0.6V and less that 1mA).

But it is so amazing that the transistor even starts up at .6v.
If it could work so low, my earth battery which puts out .9v most non parched days would be lighting a led all the time.
I think it must be the cap.
Maybe the shaking gives the cap a boost as you suggest.

You are doing something really interesting.
Perhaps I should try touching my earth battery/joule thiefbase resistor in that same spot next time.
I will; and I will let you know.
I don't have 1000uF cap,, just 65 or whatever you get in one of those cameras.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on August 29, 2009, 11:24:49 PM

@kamax

Bienvenu ! You got your new toroid , looking good .

It may be static issue , try moving the board on carpet , even holding the board and brushing your feet on the carpet may charge the cap.

This video is a example of how a transistor react under static stress real cool.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZDxYHEuy_g&feature=channel_page

I also believe you could make improvement on your battery , maybe carbon and zinc or aluminum , or galvanized nail or screw witch is zinc , anyway the idea is to get metals with the bigger voltage potential range, at that point the electrolyte will insure meeting those potentials .

@kooler

There is a book a book or two on the hendershot motor , scribd

http://www.scribd.com/doc/95105/The-Hendershot-Motor-Mystery

http://www.scribd.com/doc/12102314/The-Hendershot-Generator-Free-Energy

http://www.scribd.com/doc/18739315/Secrets-of-Perpetual-Power-Hendershot-Mystery-by-Barry-Hilton

Morpher44 started working on the device he as made many video

Also on youtube http://www.youtube.com/user/morpher44#play/all/uploads-all/1/O1EoFg7dy4A

There is a link between the magnetic battery , floyd sweet and hendershot , i believe the way the coil are facing each other .

I think i got more , i will keep searching .

@DonL

Nice work ! have you tried winding a secondary ?

@ all

Keep the good work everyone.

Also to keep you thinking watch the following there is 5 parts here is the first one , it gets better at the end , there is the first one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wItXxuEf2zo&feature=related

Keep in mind if you could catch a high amperage current in a loop then pulse it to the need speed for the application, always using the same force and recycling it every time.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 29, 2009, 11:27:54 PM

Jeanna:

Remember my video a while back where I accidentally discovered that, if I touched the transistor, my led lit up again? This was my video of one of my first JT supercaps circuits. There may be something to this we don't understand. (won't be the first time, ha ha)

This is why I love our think tank here. Who knows who will come up with something that "should" not be?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 30, 2009, 12:01:11 AM

@ kamax

Quote from: kamax on August 29, 2009, 10:38:28 PM
I'm not sure you have the same setup as mine, was your coil a part of a joule thief ? I suppose when i shake mine it just boost the energy coming from my earth cell who give continuously a little amount of power(~0.6V and less that 1mA).

No. It was just a coil hooked to a peak voltage detector. I was curious to see how much voltage could be generated just by shaking a coil in the air. It was a lot more than I expected. But I was using a bigger coil than yours.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dllabarre on August 30, 2009, 12:10:45 AM

You have to realize that our bodies can induce voltage potential.
I have a 11' tower with 2 aluminum plates on top of it.
See picture.

If I hold each meter lead to each wire with my thumb and first finger I get a lot more voltage potential then if I just touch the meter leads to each wire.

Our bodies have a voltage potential. Especially when we are standing on the ground outside.

So if you are holding the coils and shaking them then maybe you are inducing voltage potential from your body.

Just my observation today.

DonL

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 30, 2009, 02:02:56 AM

@ All:

I had another idea. (I know this can be dangerous) I was reading my latest All Electronics catalog and I found something interesting.

On page 59 there is a Gas tube Sign Power Supply advertised. Input is: 12 vdc and output is: 2,000 vac. Now it says it needs 1 amp input to do this. It also says that I can add another circuit they offer to get the output up to 25,000 volts.

So, I am thinking of getting this (it is only $6.50) and attempting to run it from my EER and a JT. Now, I don't have the amp needed but, if I charge my supercap up and it is in paralell to the JT I believe I might be able to run this device.

If I can run it, my question is....if hooked up to a 48" tube, will the tube be like really bright at 2,000 volts? And, if I add their other circuit, what would happen if I tried to light the tube with 25,000 volts?

To me, this is like when I used the modified Fuji circuit to do stuff. this device might be another order of magnitude of output from my EER.

I am open for all opinions and comments on this. (Jeanna, Xee2 and Jim, this means you.)

I have several JT toroid circuits that would give me the 12 volts I need. I think I can get the 1 amp needed from my supercap.

Any thoughts?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kamax on August 30, 2009, 02:13:23 AM

Without the cap it don't work. I just have found that it works on both side of the resistor and the + side of the led but it's harder to do. The more easy to blink the led is still on the base transistor side of the resistor.

I just have make another video without shaking the joule thief to eliminate(i hope) some or most of the static electricity. The joule thief was on a sort of wood support, not on the soil, even i have no carpet on it. If i turn the wire like a coil it looks more easy to reproduce. I'm not sure but the frequency where i touch the resistor can play a role. Sometime i can make it blink a lot of time in a row but it's hard to do.

Maybe it has something to do with the electrical potential of my body but i have the feel that it pump a spike of electricity out of the cap. Or maybe it's like an antenna, i don't know.

here is the video:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6RB88AX4J0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6RB88AX4J0)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 30, 2009, 02:38:45 AM

@ Pirate88179

Quote from: Pirate88179 on August 30, 2009, 02:02:56 AM
If I can run it, my question is....if hooked up to a 48" tube, will the tube be like really bright at 2,000 volts? And, if I add their other circuit, what would happen if I tried to light the tube with 25,000 volts?

The spec says it will output 2000 volts at 10 ma. That is 20 watts. I would think that 20 watts at 2000 volts into a 20 watt tube would be full brightness.

I have run 4 watt tube at 14,000 volts from a 1.5 volt AA @ 248 ma (about same input power as Fuji) and it is brighter than Fuji circuit but not a lot brighter. So I think just increasing voltage will not provide big increase in brightness. Once tube lights, the voltage across it is set by current through tube. The high voltage is only needed to start the tube.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 30, 2009, 02:42:29 AM

@ Xee2:

Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: forest on August 30, 2009, 06:26:07 AM

Quote from: jeanna on August 29, 2009, 05:50:28 PM
MCMelectronics.com
Tenma 72-8155
http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/TENMA-72-8155-/72-8155 (http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/TENMA-72-8155-/72-8155)
It ended up costing $65, with shipping $52.95 +12.00 I think. I think it was well worth it because I was stuck. It helped to unstick me.!

I better find out what a hendershot motor is. I haven't made a bedini motor yet.

BTW I believe your results have to do with lack of ferrite core. It shows up on that meter as amazing.
Even iron is lousy next to ferrite, but as you will see with stubblefield (Yeay another person interested in stubblefield!) you can use soft iron.
If you really do not want to use ferrite, perhaps you could try an iron wire.
I got some black annealed iron wire at my hardware store when I made my stubblefield coils, and it shows a stronger inductance on the meter than air but still much less than ferrite.
You can also use a spool of tie wire for rebar. It comes in a spool about 4" diameter.

It would be interesting to see your big set up made with part or all iron wire for the core. I would be very curious to see this.

====
@forestWhat is that?
Maybe xee2 did, if it means joining the secondary to the battery?
I better just wait for your answer.
thank you,

jeanna

I meant about connecting somehow output of joule thief to the input, basically to create self-powering device ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on August 30, 2009, 10:58:52 AM

Hello . Everyone . Not much to post excvept i am way behind on the threads . i think somewhere in the 800's is the last pages i read . the reason is i am on Dialup now . My high speed internet from my Cell phone was Alltel and they sold out to Verizon and they want to charge me 80 more dollars on top of the 89 i allready pay so good by Data on my moto Q . It take 10 to 20 minuits for one page to load on this site . I will never catch up on reading because i don't have but maybe an hour a day for the computer Due to My Daughters School and other commitments . :( I can't even update my Web Sites . Takes DAYS and DAYS to upload to it . So . If anyone has asked me a question in the last month and a half and you have it between 800 to this page please by all means ask again or message me . DIAL UP SUCKS !!. Also i Noticed Stephan removed all the Signatures from uses including me . I run www.sunpowerwindpower.com and have a lot of good stuff folks use here so if you need any parts n stuff please use My site . i wish you all happy sucess with your experiments as i have . What i learned and Shared has made free Energy a reality . So far i have several self running Jts .Jt hho generator Bedini that run themselves replicated by a few and My patent pending E-light . Wish i could spend more time showing you how i Figured it out but the Connection speed won't permit it so this is goodbye until they run DSL where i live . a lousy two mile stretch that they forgot about when they put DSL on both sides .

Luv you guys .

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on August 30, 2009, 11:17:52 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on August 30, 2009, 10:58:52 AM
Hello . Everyone . Not much to post excvept i am way behind on the threads . i think somewhere in the 800's is the last pages i read . the reason is i am on Dialup now . My high speed internet from my Cell phone was Alltel and they sold out to Verizon and they want to charge me 80 more dollars on top of the 89 i allready pay so good by Data on my moto Q . It take 10 to 20 minuits for one page to load on this site . I will never catch up on reading because i don't have but maybe an hour a day for the computer Due to My Daughters School and other commitments . :( I can't even update my Web Sites . Takes DAYS and DAYS to upload to it . So . If anyone has asked me a question in the last month and a half and you have it between 800 to this page please by all means ask again or message me . DIAL UP SUCKS !!.

Luv you guys .

Gadget

have you tried using the WAP2 link? much less page weight. maybe you have been using it, if so, disregard.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on August 30, 2009, 12:24:08 PM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on August 30, 2009, 11:17:52 AM
have you tried using the WAP2 link? much less page weight. maybe you have been using it, if so, disregard.

Thanks for the wap2 . i am aware of it and i wont be disregardful of valuable info . I did not realize all the background garbage and the flash Junk Stephan upgraded to was no good for dial up users . At 7 kb or a sup[posed 56 k connection this site is worthless to dial up unless you got hours of nothing else to do but wait .

Regards
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: IotaYodi on August 30, 2009, 01:13:43 PM

@gadgetmall
No Wireless Isp nearby? I live in the country and just got high speed a few months ago. 3 meg $50.00. This is not a Sat dish either. Sats are way overpriced as well as lame. My Isp is about 30 miles away but they put up an antenna in my county. If you give me the closest town to you I may be able to find a local or Global Isp.
I have spent about 20 years on dialup. Money was allocated to upgrade the U.S. infrastructure. We all should have had high speed in 2007. But the money was absconded by a few corporations who got caught. Another thing is internet over the power lines. Its already been done in Cincinnati and other places. Up to 1gig speed also. The phone companys dont want that.
I feel your pain with dialup!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on August 30, 2009, 01:31:09 PM

Quote from: IotaYodi on August 30, 2009, 01:13:43 PM
@gadgetmall
No Wireless Isp nearby? I live in the country and just got high speed a few months ago. 3 meg $50.00. This is not a Sat dish either. Sats are way overpriced as well as lame. My Isp is about 30 miles away but they put up an antenna in my county. If you give me the closest town to you I may be able to find a local or Global Isp.
I have spent about 20 years on dialup. Money was allocated to upgrade the U.S. infrastructure. We all should have had high speed in 2007. But the money was absconded by a few corporations who got caught. Another thing is internet over the power lines. Its already been done in Cincinnati and other places. Up to 1gig speed also. The phone companys dont want that.
I feel your pain with dialup!

Hi . Believe me i would have had wifi if there was a host somewhere . i am in the middle of a 150 foot forest and the closest wifi point is in kinston N.C. about 25 miles away . No plans for the Embark phone Co.to put up a booster box even with signed petitions . they say its too expensive for a lousy two miles with 50 people on it .My US GOVERNMENT SUCKS and i am ashamed of them and all the missmanagment and vile people running it and black ops programs like the FEMA camps etc.. !!the NC Educational lottery was put in place a few years back to help education and the school my daughter goes to had to lay off 7 teachers this year and the parents are responsible for ALL the STATE REQUIRED UNIFORMS and supplies including the paper they use to print the test on . The US GOVERNMENT and EVERY MINION IN IT NEEDS TO ROT IN HELL > Heck there are over 300,000 homless and starving people in the Us they dont care about do you think they will use that money for them and places like BANK OF AMERICA have 10 million dollar weekend parties with stimulus money. I shouldn't complain but someone need to .Everyone on SSI will not get a cost of living inc rease for the next two years while the government officials do . There is going to be a revolt from Millions of americans for getting the shaft . I see it coming . My option is to move or put in another phone line and modem and getdialup times two isdn . bull crap . also about 80 dollars a month . Dish blue 90 dollars a month . Verizon 88 dollars a month . Hugues . 250 upfront and 90 dollars a month . All of them have limits for kb and if you go over they shut you down to dial up . two miles down the road DSL 25 a month but no wifi routers and no line of sight if there was . please Forgive My again off topic Blabs Bill . Just too impatient and i have ahead ache waiting for a page ;) .later

gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dllabarre on August 30, 2009, 01:50:29 PM

Quote from: dllabarre on August 29, 2009, 02:17:29 PM
I disconnected the battery for 10 seconds.
Reconnected the battery and the LEDs did not restart.
I watched the battery as it "bounced" back to 351mV then the LEDs lit up real bright. Then of course the battery started dropping back to where it was ~284mV and the LEDs are dimmer again but still lit.

DonL

Currently my JT is down to 277.6mV and the 3 red LEDs are very dim but still visible. When they do go out the battery will enter its "bounce back" cycle. Then if it bouces back enough the LEDs will light and start dropping the battery down again.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on August 30, 2009, 02:46:21 PM

gadget ...

i used to install wifi ... ;D oooo a few years back ...

anyhow get a dsl link amp it and share the bill i had a van full of gear but i ended up giveing it away a while ago ...

all you need is a linksys n router throw a 2 watt rf amp on it and let her rip ;D

or you could use 900 mhz it blasts right through everything ... :D

i have installed 900mhz - 5.6 ghz access points and user units ...

i was able to grab signal 40 km away .... but it was close to line of sight this 2.6 ghz and a 1 watt amp ... we were useing a db36 ant.

ist!

you can grab amps on ebay fairly cheep ... ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dllabarre on August 30, 2009, 11:33:13 PM

Quote from: dllabarre on August 30, 2009, 01:50:29 PM
Currently my JT is down to 277.6mV and the 3 red LEDs are very dim but still visible. When they do go out the battery will enter its "bounce back" cycle. Then if it bouces back enough the LEDs will light and start dropping the battery down again.

Here is the range for my JT.
When the battery gets to 276.7mV the LEDs are not visible.
If I disconnect the battery for 5 seconds, upon reconnecting the battery, it goes into its "bounce back" cycle.
When (IF) the battery gets up to 346.7mV then the LEDs will light up and the battery starts to go down again.

I have let the battery go down to 272.6mV before disconnecting the battery to initiate the bounce back.
I wanted to determine if it would automatically go into the "bounce back" cycle but it didn't even at 272.6mV.

DonL

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 31, 2009, 01:28:15 AM

@ dllabarre

Quote from: dllabarre on August 30, 2009, 11:33:13 PM
Here is the range for my JT.
When the battery gets to 276.7mV the LEDs are not visible.
If I disconnect the battery for 5 seconds, upon reconnecting the battery, it goes into its "bounce back" cycle.
When (IF) the battery gets up to 346.7mV then the LEDs will light up and the battery starts to go down again.

I have let the battery go down to 272.6mV before disconnecting the battery to initiate the bounce back.
I wanted to determine if it would automatically go into the "bounce back" cycle but it didn't even at 272.6mV.

DonL

Thanks for the info. I do not know if anyone else finds this interesting, but I do. I always thought transistors would not work at such a low base voltage.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on August 31, 2009, 10:09:59 AM

Deleted

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on August 31, 2009, 10:31:09 AM

Ok it's still being processed but it's up and running.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsslTUxX-VE

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 31, 2009, 04:39:52 PM

Well stprue,

That is pretty interesting.
Some of the hook up details were unfortunately off screen, as I am sure you are aware.
I will try to make a drawing for myself out of what information is there.

It must all be in the way you made the connections, because you are only using -was it- 4 turns per secondary.

One end of each secondary (was it going around the toroid the same way?) goes to each side of the bridge.

Your pot is not connecting to the base but instead to the emitter?
It was kind of off the screen there so remains a mystery.

The next thing you show is another wire from the second pickup that "goes to the base, of course".
NOT

You would seem to be skipping the resistor to the base?
The pot connections would be helpful to see since that is the oddest part of this arrangement.

How many turns were on your MK1 primary?

Did you ever try this withOUT the bridge?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on August 31, 2009, 04:48:14 PM

Yes, I noticed a lot of things were not clearly captured but it was my first try, but I do appoligise. I'm not sure what else can be done with that set up so I in a sense gave up on it. ???

Anyway I hope it opens up some new ideas.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 31, 2009, 04:53:56 PM

OK you can give up on it but I think you have a good idea, but I am not sure what you did, so there is no way to replicate it to see if you did.

I added to my other post.

Please explain about the base connections.

Is the base connected directly to a pickup aith no resistor?
That is an aweful lot of voltage going to the base without a resistor.

And the resistor seems only to be on the collector?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on August 31, 2009, 05:14:46 PM

What you said is right for the collector not the base. I have connected wires to the emitter with different results also.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 31, 2009, 07:45:05 PM

Stprue,

What then is the connection to the base?

Where from and where to?
Which coil wire goes to the base and where is the pot in all this?
Is there a second base resistor you didn't mention?

If the emitter is connected to the pot, then how is the base connected to the pot?

This is sort of all one question.
thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on September 01, 2009, 10:58:00 AM

@ Jeanna

I will set up a cleaned up version and post some pics. The fun with this set up is that there are soooo many connection set-up to try. Giver me a few days and I will post some really easy to follow pics. I have some time to kill until my HV stuff comes in anyway. ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on September 01, 2009, 01:14:45 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on August 30, 2009, 02:46:21 PM
gadget ...

i used to install wifi ... ;D oooo a few years back ...

anyhow get a dsl link amp it and share the bill i had a van full of gear but i ended up giveing it away a while ago ...

all you need is a linksys n router throw a 2 watt rf amp on it and let her rip ;D

or you could use 900 mhz it blasts right through everything ... :D

i have installed 900mhz - 5.6 ghz access points and user units ...

i was able to grab signal 40 km away .... but it was close to line of sight this 2.6 ghz and a 1 watt amp ... we were useing a db36 ant.

ist!

you can grab amps on ebay fairly cheep ... ;)

IST

can you explain this a little more for those of us that have no experience with Wi Fi routers and RF amps ?

I do know a little about antennas ....... do you know where I could find the specs for an antenna similar to the one you mentioned?

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 01, 2009, 01:26:29 PM

Quote from: stprue on September 01, 2009, 10:58:00 AM

I will set up a cleaned up version and post some pics. ...

OK great.
I look forward to the explanations.
jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on September 02, 2009, 04:11:13 AM

this is the style antenna i have installed in the past ...
for 2.6 ghz

for 900 mhz you want a yaggi ...

http://fskbt.manufacturer.globalsources.com/si/6008800551593/pdtl/Parabolic-antenna/1008182945/2.6GHz-Square-Grid-Parabolic-Antenna.htm

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 02, 2009, 04:20:48 AM

IST:

That's good info. Thanks for posting it.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on September 02, 2009, 01:39:45 PM

no prob .. bill

gary ...

its really easy ...

i used an omni ant .. as my access point .. you can put a 1 watt rf amp on it ...

then you can use any 2.6 ghz wireless bridge off the system ... we were able to pull 2+ mbps no problem over a good distance

only amping the access point .... ;)

the bridges we used were 500 ma units ... half watt transmitter / reciever .. that with a db 36 on the roof you cant go wrong as long as your access point is high enough like a 70" tower on a hill would do well ... ;)

ist ...

split this up by 20 people .. and costs go down fast ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on September 02, 2009, 01:59:34 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on September 02, 2009, 04:11:13 AM
this is the style antenna i have installed in the past ...
for 2.6 ghz

for 900 mhz you want a yaggi ...

http://fskbt.manufacturer.globalsources.com/si/6008800551593/pdtl/Parabolic-antenna/1008182945/2.6GHz-Square-Grid-Parabolic-Antenna.htm

ist

Thanks for the link IST

If you have a few more minutes I have a few questions about antennas like this .

The one in your link says it has a female N connector does this plug right into a router like a Linksys ?

I did a search on ebay . The WiFi parabolic antennas there all seem to be 2.4 GHz your link is 2.6GHz is there a reason for the difference ?

Thanks for the help

gary

Edit

It looks like the linksys has a small power adapter
I am guessing it probably does not use much power .

With a JT charger on a battery this whole thing could be put up on a pole or in a tree

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 02, 2009, 05:32:04 PM

Gary said:

QuoteThe WiFi parabolic antennas there all seem to be 2.4 GHz your link is 2.6GHz is there a reason for the difference ?

Wow!

I will stop trying to do anything with the 2.4-2.6MHz I am picking up with my Stubblefiels coils. I was about to concentrate on the 22Khz anyway, but now, I wonder if the 22Khz is from those antennas . I betcha the wifi is what I have been picking up.

Thanks, now I can go back to real work on my joule thief and let it rain!

thank you IST for providing this info too,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on September 02, 2009, 06:21:37 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on September 02, 2009, 01:39:45 PM
no prob .. bill

gary ...

its really easy ...

i used an omni ant .. as my access point .. you can put a 1 watt rf amp on it ...

then you can use any 2.6 ghz wireless bridge off the system ... we were able to pull 2+ mbps no problem over a good distance

only amping the access point .... ;)

the bridges we used were 500 ma units ... half watt transmitter / reciever .. that with a db 36 on the roof you cant go wrong as long as your access point is high enough like a 70" tower on a hill would do well ... ;)

ist ...

split this up by 20 people .. and costs go down fast ...

IST

I found this on ebay

http://cgi.ebay.com/Wifi-802-11-g-Router-And-Strong-Yagi-N-Type-Antenna_W0QQitemZ400070135320QQcmdZViewItemQQptZCOMP_EN_Routers?hash=item5d2609ce18&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

It sounds like it does everything you talked about .....except using amps .

Does it look to you like it will do what they say it will do ?

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on September 02, 2009, 06:52:58 PM

Quote from: jeanna on September 02, 2009, 05:32:04 PM
Gary said:Wow!

I will stop trying to do anything with the 2.4-2.6MHz I am picking up with my Stubblefiels coils. I was about to concentrate on the 22Khz anyway, but now, I wonder if the 22Khz is from those antennas . I betcha the wifi is what I have been picking up.

Thanks, now I can go back to real work on my joule thief and let it rain!

thank you IST for providing this info too,

jeanna

Geanna

These signals are Gigahertz
I guess you could be picking up a lower harmonic of them .
If that is what is happening your equipment is probably not fast enough to see the true frequency

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 02, 2009, 10:49:09 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on September 02, 2009, 06:52:58 PM
These signals are Gigahertz

Oh, so they are!

Well, now I don't have a reasonable excuse to stop anymore!
So then, I will keep on going ! ;D

I like the spike nature of them even though they are not very big. I keep trying to use the spikes. In a JT the spikes from the basic jt toroid are not hundreds but because they are in a toroid (I assume that is the reason) the multiplication of volts is very high. Yet, I am not getting more than 100mv from it.

Of course that is 10 times without any inductors if you count the stubs as inductors....so I should be incouraged not discouraged.
I want more!!

What I really want to do is make a toroid that is the inductor like the stubblefield. I just haven't figured how I want to stick it into the ground.

Gary,
Thanks for noticing and mentioning my mistake.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on September 03, 2009, 04:47:53 AM

@all

Tonight experiments ...

First i made a jt out of a piece of copper tubing 1/2 inch diameter by 1/3 inch, did not work with out cap . Also planing the same on a silver and gold ring.

I also made a two toroid jt , stacked on top of each other, so the secondary goes around the two toroid , both toroid have one wire 12 turn and one the same wire one turn on the other toroid.

More later or if you guys have questions.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on September 03, 2009, 07:51:07 AM

i did make a mistake ..

2.4 ghz ..

yes what you found garry will do just fine ...

the amp should go on the transmitting location ... it is an inline amp ...

any router will work as an access point .. but you need a bridge .. to recieve ...

i had this entire setup in my work van 4 years ago i had HIGH SPEED I NET IN MY VAN ...

ANYWHERE IN THE LOWER PROVENCE OF ONT .. I SIMPLY PUT A 2.4 GHZ omni on my van roof ... amped it to a bridge ... i could suck signal from all routers all over the place ... ;) ;D

never mine the over 100 access points the network i worked for owned

here is a rf amp 1 watt.. over 1 watt YOU NEED A LICIENCE .. TO BRODCAST!!!!!!!!

http://cgi.ebay.com/2-4-gHz-1-Watt-New-POE30-WLAN-802-11B-G-Power-Amp_W0QQitemZ250487943162QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3a523eaffa&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

IST!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on September 03, 2009, 12:24:59 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on September 03, 2009, 07:51:07 AM
i did make a mistake ..

2.4 ghz ..

yes what you found garry will do just fine ...

the amp should go on the transmitting location ... it is an inline amp ...

any router will work as an access point .. but you need a bridge .. to recieve ...

i had this entire setup in my work van 4 years ago i had HIGH SPEED I NET IN MY VAN ...

ANYWHERE IN THE LOWER PROVENCE OF ONT .. I SIMPLY PUT A 2.4 GHZ omni on my van roof ... amped it to a bridge ... i could suck signal from all routers all over the place ... ;) ;D

never mine the over 100 access points the network i worked for owned

here is a rf amp 1 watt.. over 1 watt YOU NEED A LICIENCE .. TO BRODCAST!!!!!!!!

http://cgi.ebay.com/2-4-gHz-1-Watt-New-POE30-WLAN-802-11B-G-Power-Amp_W0QQitemZ250487943162QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3a523eaffa&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

IST!

IST

Thanks for the help

I think I am going to try it without the amp
The amp looks great .......but if I can get a signal without it I have saved a bunch of money
I think my first choice if I do not get a good enough signal with the original Yagi would be to duplicate the original a few times and make an array .
The antennas do not quite add up 1+1 =2 a second antenna might add 50% more if you are lucky and very careful
All the coax from the antennas have to be the same length

I am thinking that an array of 6 to 8 yagies would be much cheaper than the amp
If that is still not enough .......the amp should drive the array very nicely .

I don't know if I will be able to put it up on the roof here ......
It is nice to know that it can be done from the roof of a car if need be.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 03, 2009, 05:40:11 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on September 03, 2009, 04:47:53 AM
...

I also made a two toroid jt , stacked on top of each other, so the secondary goes around the two toroid , both toroid have one wire 12 turn and one the same wire one turn on the other toroid.

More later or if you guys have questions.

Mark

Wow Mark,
I was planning to do this next!

My plan was to wind one wire on each toroid and stack the 2 toroids so the magnetic 'currents' went in opposite directions.
I wanted to then experiment with ways to wind a secondary.

How did you wind the secondary when you wrapped them together.
Did you keep them together and go through the middle just like a single toroid?

I was also thinking I would put some tape around the outside to make a kind of edge support then make a wrap around the circumference of the outside of the 2 of them and not going through the center.

Did you ever try that?

I am finished with my beautiful roof and ready to joule thief some more.

:D,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on September 03, 2009, 06:44:39 PM

jeanna ... lol

tin or shingles

;) :D

ist!

garry

your totally nuts ;D ;D in a good way ... lol

you wouldnt beleave some of the wild installs we have done ... but nothing with mutiple antanas

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on September 03, 2009, 06:56:01 PM

@jeanna

I will post pictures later , the batteries are charging.

I made a other jt with 14 gauge 5 turns (core coil) 27 turn around the other coil.
Like jadaro / tpu ...

As for the coils on the outer edge of the toroid ( radial /(ist shift coil)) i have found them working better on the inside of the toroid.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 03, 2009, 08:20:18 PM

@IST,
Tin
very very nice.

@MK1
Thanks.
I got this idea after watching Nassin Haramein again. I was wondering if we were to wrap wires around the outside if they would pick up the coriolus forces...IF I am getting coriolus forces to activate, that is!

Thanks for the pix when they come.

BTW, PLEASE make them smaller than 600pixels x 600 pixels!!

Thanks more,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on September 03, 2009, 10:46:29 PM

@jeanna

I hope this will do !

Mark

Details are in the picture title.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 03, 2009, 11:34:31 PM

Yes, Mark. Thank you.
The pictures are perfect.

Interesting toroids,
Did you get a surprise with the dual?

But I am really interested in the stack.
What kind of comparison do you have with number of turns etc and results with the stack?
First of all, does it work as a basic joule thief?
I mean, does it work the transistor switch like a regular joule thief and turn on a led?

I want to make it like that but make a third plain solenoid inside the center of the toroid. I have seen and felt strong forces in there from time to time.
I have not been able to say exactly where.
One time I could light a neon, but only if I held it in a certain place above and near the center of the toroid. Other times the scope goes wild, but I must be holding the probe exactly right. Other times absolutely nothing happens in the same spot.
So, I want to investigate this. I am happy to have some kind of company.

I will make one tomorrow or saturday.
My new good roof means I can finally put things into the shed.
Tomorrow will be not rainy but the next 2 days will be perfect indoors rainy joule thief weather!

Thank you for those pix, and I am so glad you are doing these interesting things!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on September 03, 2009, 11:52:36 PM

@jeanna

They all work for the basic jt.

The stacked secondary gives about 20v for 10 turns. I believe there are too many turns on the jt side ...

So far the dual works better.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on September 04, 2009, 03:01:17 AM

@all

My new creation The Quad Leaf JT.

Only thing missing are 4 secondaries ...

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on September 04, 2009, 08:46:23 AM

@all
Has anybody tried winding a JT on a crystal ring?

P.S. Nice work Mk1 as usual...I'm so glad you have a camera now!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on September 04, 2009, 09:01:33 AM

hello everyone ... ;D

i just started a new thred ... ;)

anyone wanna build it with me...

i got me a furnace fan ... ;D

next i will transform it to a self running motor generator ... ;D

the thred can be found in the pulse motor section of overunity.com

ist

stprue where is a cheep supply of crystal rings ?

if i can find one ill wind one ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on September 04, 2009, 01:33:48 PM

I remember seeing a kiosk selling rock rings, quartz, jade, .......etc that's what gave me the idea.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on September 04, 2009, 01:34:54 PM

Quote from: jeanna on September 03, 2009, 05:40:11 PM

I was also thinking I would put some tape around the outside to make a kind of edge support then make a wrap around the circumference of the outside of the 2 of them and not going through the center.

Did you ever try that?

Jeanna

You seem to be describing a hard way to make a LM coil

A one inch toroid like the 5 for $1 toroids fit perfectly inside the center of a radio shack wire spool ....in fact 2 of the 5 for $1 toroids will fit .

If you put your primary next to the core I believe you can get by with 5 or 6 wraps .......it takes more like 20 wraps if you put your primary on the outside .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on September 04, 2009, 01:42:00 PM

@resonance man

You really should try the inside , there is many times more power on the inside .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on September 04, 2009, 02:00:13 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on September 03, 2009, 06:44:39 PM

garry

your totally nuts ;D ;D in a good way ... lol

you wouldnt beleave some of the wild installs we have done ... but nothing with mutiple antanas

IST

I am not nuts ........even in a good way .

I am a genius in some ways .
The problem is ....no one ever believes that ......probably because I am dumb is so many ways .

:)

I have seen a few really cool arrays .
A yagi can be used in an array although it is not often done .
I am not expecting miracles here .
I am guessing that it will take at least 3 or 4 yagies to double the siganl .
They will have to be made very carefully .......but the nice part is the parts required to make them are real cheap ..... just half inch square metal tubing and metal rods ........ these things can be bought just about anywhere .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on September 04, 2009, 02:13:03 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on September 04, 2009, 01:42:00 PM
@resonance man

You really should try the inside , there is many times more power on the inside .

Mark

Mark

Thanks

I plan on it .

I am still into non toroid JTs
I just made a core out of florist wire .
It is about 1/8th inch thick ........and half and inch wide .
The diameter is just a little to small to fit my LMs inside of it . At least as it is wrapped now . I have it completely wrapped in #22 magnet wire .
I was going to wrap a primary over the mag wire .......my first attempt didn;t work .... 12 wraps for E and 6 for base

gary

Edit

I guess my post was not quite accurate .
I don't have anything against toroids .
What I am against is using only manufactured toroids .
They might be the best for the little stuff ....... but I do not believe that they will ever be available in the sizes or compositions needed for larger projects .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on September 04, 2009, 02:27:01 PM

@ Jeanna

As promised

1 Biggo
x2 style base and collector coils at 5 wraps each side for a total of 10 base and 10 collector winds using 22 gauge mag wire
4 pieces of plastic covered wire 22 gauge to form 2 pickups
MJE3005T transistor
5K 15turn trimmer POT set at .872K
800v@1amp bridge
(2) 10nK400 metalized caps
(1) 220uf @25v electrolytic cap (brown)

White alligator clips wire are coming off the Base coil (1 into the transistor/base and then 1 going to side of the first pick up coil)

Yellow alligator clips are coming off the collector (1 going into the trimmer POT and then into the transistor/collector and 1 going into the other side of second pickup coil)

Green going into the ~~ of the bridge

Input
1.5vDC @ 0.13A = 0.20W

Output
192+ or- volts DC

P.S. This set up is different then the one in the video!!!

;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on September 04, 2009, 03:18:38 PM

@Jeanna

Instead of connecting the second base and collector wires (Yellow/White) put leds in between the connection and you get light and more voltage! Cool set up right?

P.S. I put a little 221 cap between the base resistor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on September 04, 2009, 03:47:44 PM

@gary

I made one with a piece of copper tubing , the piece you can see on one of last page photos.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 04, 2009, 03:53:24 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on September 04, 2009, 01:34:54 PM

Jeanna

You seem to be describing a hard way to make a LM coil

A one inch toroid like the 5 for $1 toroids fit perfectly inside the center of a radio shack wire spool ....in fact 2 of the 5 for $1 toroids will fit .

I think I always liked your LM for that reason.
I do not like any of my medium 5/1 toroids.
I always end up with a really weak secondary when I use it.
I did follow that suggestion you made with the red spool, but it was really only successful when I used it on a NS coil. So the interior was cylindrical bifilar.
It worked pretty well.

But even though I wanted to see the outside, what I really want to see is on the inside of the toroid core.
I think there is some action in there that is perpendicular to the ring of the toroid.
I am going to see if I can make this with 2 toroids upside down to each other with a straw wrapped with a coil.
The thing here is if the mag field IS spiralling up through the center of the toroid, I will not be catching it this way. I would need something that crosses the lines...
So, perhaps a larger ring around the outside perpendicular to the stacked rings, so it is in a way that crosses the field.

Maybe I can get the spool to do that for me.

But here is where we need to make our own.
I can use some wire to make a ring the right size... and I will be watching your results too.
Someone a long time ago... was it IST? did this. theNOP said he was using florist wire but I do not remember any reports from him.

QuoteIf you put your primary next to the core I believe you can get by with 5 or 6 wraps .......it takes more like 20 wraps if you put your primary on the outside .

Oh hmm. That is interesting.
And, yes it does go along with what I was thinking.
Thank you,

@Stprue, Thanks for the pix. I will study them.

@MK1 Wow, I love the quad!
Please report when you get any (even disappointing) results.
That has great promise.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on September 04, 2009, 05:58:42 PM

@All

I posted this on the sm topic but though it would be good here as well.

What do you think of this little test!!! It is kinda like a small tesla hairpin circuit. The interesting thing about it is that it is lighting an led on a different JT circuit...no contact. Also you can see voltage reading off my DMM that's connected to my JT! What are your thoughts on this?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kamax on September 04, 2009, 10:56:34 PM

Hi,

The setup of stprue give me some idea and have played with my joule thief. i don't know what i have really done but it looks like i have decrease the milliamp of my joule thief.

Without any load on my transistor i read ~50ma(is this normal?), with a led it's only ~1ma more.
I have make a coil with a crystal core and have connected it to the two wires going out of my normal toroide. For the input of the crystal core coil i have make it like a joule thief toroide, one wire from opposite side.

I can put leds in the two directions on the output, they will light but are stronger in one side. Looks like i have AC. The stange thing is that if i put a led in the strongest side, i read less milliamp going out from my battery. More leds i connect less mA i read but it don't get to 0mA. When i reach ~36mA and connect more leds, it get more mA.

It works with a toroide too instead of the crystal core coil but instead of taking a wire from different side for the input, i must take the two wire from the same side.Very strange.

Here is a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_O9jrp0tHT4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_O9jrp0tHT4)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on September 04, 2009, 11:00:31 PM

HOT DOG!~!!

Lol

YOU ALL SEE THIS ... ;)

THIS IS A TRUNK AMP...

I HEAR YOU CAN TUNE THEM

FOR THE YAGGIES ... WE ONLY EVER USED THEM ON THE 900 MHZ UNITS ...

BUT THE TRUNK AMPS IM PICKING UP TOMMOROW .. ARE 1 GHZ ... ;D

SHIT ... I DONT KNOW HOW MANY WATTS ... I BET A FEW THO ..

THIS IS A TRUNK AMP ...

http://www.c-cor.com/broadband_access/files/products/FM901eT-AT-1106B.pdf

AND I DONT THINK THE ONES IM GETTING ARE THE EXACT SAME ... BUT FORSURE 1 GHZ

PROBALLY DROP THE CELL TOWERS IF NOT USED PROPERLY ...

THE THING I DID LEARN WAS THE CABLE MODEMS .. CAN BE USED AS WIRELESS WITH THE CORRECT ANTANNAS AND AMPED OF COURSE ..

IST!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on September 04, 2009, 11:57:01 PM

Quote from: kamax on September 04, 2009, 10:56:34 PM
Hi,

The setup of stprue give me some idea and have played with my joule thief. i don't know what i have really done but it looks like i have decrease the milliamp of my joule thief.

Without any load on my transistor i read ~50ma(is this normal?), with a led it's only ~1ma more.
I have make a coil with a crystal core and have connected it to the two wires going out of my normal toroide. For the input of the crystal core coil i have make it like a joule thief toroide, one wire from opposite side.

I can put leds in the two directions on the output, they will light but are stronger in one side. Looks like i have AC. The stange thing is that if i put a led in the strongest side, i read less milliamp going out from my battery. More leds i connect less mA i read but it don't get to 0mA. When i reach ~36mA and connect more leds, it get more mA.

It works with a toroide too instead of the crystal core coil but instead of taking a wire from different side for the input, i must take the two wire from the same side.Very strange.

Here is a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_O9jrp0tHT4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_O9jrp0tHT4)

Nice , good work !

Now the question , dose a secondary work on the crystal?

Can you replace the toroid with the crystal ?

Tres bien desole pour l'orthographe , crois tu qu'il soit posible d' utiliser selement le crystal pour faire un jt , aussi l'ajout d'une troisieme bobine (secondaire) sur une toroid nous donne une autre source de courent utilisable ...

Maybe the piezoelectric nature of the rock could manifest it self with plates , two pieces of foil should do.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on September 05, 2009, 09:19:03 AM

Quote from: kamax on September 04, 2009, 10:56:34 PM
Hi,

The setup of stprue give me some idea and have played with my joule thief. i don't know what i have really done but it looks like i have decrease the milliamp of my joule thief.

Without any load on my transistor i read ~50ma(is this normal?), with a led it's only ~1ma more.
I have make a coil with a crystal core and have connected it to the two wires going out of my normal toroide. For the input of the crystal core coil i have make it like a joule thief toroide, one wire from opposite side.

I can put leds in the two directions on the output, they will light but are stronger in one side. Looks like i have AC. The stange thing is that if i put a led in the strongest side, i read less milliamp going out from my battery. More leds i connect less mA i read but it don't get to 0mA. When i reach ~36mA and connect more leds, it get more mA.

It works with a toroide too instead of the crystal core coil but instead of taking a wire from different side for the input, i must take the two wire from the same side.Very strange.

Here is a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_O9jrp0tHT4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_O9jrp0tHT4)

Very interesting and good job ;)

Do you notice any audibles?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kamax on September 05, 2009, 09:56:39 AM

Replacing the toroide with the crystal work only with a cap between + and - from the battery. Don't know why.

I just have found that i don't need the crystal coil to do the same, only one or more led between the 2 output wire from the toroide, + side of the led on the wire going to the transistor collector. With this i get the same mA drop :o

I still play with my crystal coil to see if i find something weird :)

Quote from: stprue on September 05, 2009, 09:19:03 AMDo you notice any audibles?

Hmmm noting that cover the fan of my PC

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on September 05, 2009, 10:08:48 AM

Quote from: kamax on September 05, 2009, 09:56:39 AM
Replacing the toroide with the crystal work only with a cap between + and - from the battery. Don't know why.

I just have found that i don't need the crystal coil to do the same, only one or more led between the 2 output wire from the toroide, + side of the led on the wire going to the transistor collector. With this i get the same mA drop :o

I still play with my crystal coil to see if i find something weird :)
Hmmm noting that cover the fan of my PC

So you're not hearing and resonant frequency/oscillations?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kamax on September 05, 2009, 10:20:37 AM

Quote from: stprue on September 05, 2009, 10:08:48 AM
So you're not hearing and resonant frequency/oscillations?

I just have tested it in another room with my last setup,only the led without the crystal and hear nothing.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 05, 2009, 01:04:29 PM

This is just a reminder that you cannot hear any frequency above 20k.
Most of my jtc's are quiet and they work fine.
In fact only the "biggo" which has a frequency of 5.6khz is audible.
The rest are way out of range like 50khz.

So, all I am saying is that NOT hearing it is not an indication that it is not working.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on September 05, 2009, 02:06:09 PM

i picked up some goodies ... ;D

have a look ...

i got this fiber thing .. too ...

and a few trunk amps and linex's

ist

so the boss just came by .. and it turns out its a fiber node .. i got ;D ;D

i snaped a pic or 2 of the xm2 power supply..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on September 05, 2009, 02:40:51 PM

Quote from: jeanna on September 05, 2009, 01:04:29 PM
This is just a reminder that you cannot hear any frequency above 20k.
Most of my jtc's are quiet and they work fine.
In fact only the "biggo" which has a frequency of 5.6khz is audible.
The rest are way out of range like 50khz.

So, all I am saying is that NOT hearing it is not an indication that it is not working.

jeanna

I didn't know that! I can hear almost all of mine.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 05, 2009, 02:42:03 PM

Quote from: kamax on September 04, 2009, 10:56:34 PM

... For the input of the crystal core coil i have make it like a joule thief toroide, one wire from opposite side.

Opposite what? I am not sure what you mean.

QuoteI can put leds in the two directions on the output, they will light but are stronger in one side. Looks like i have AC. The stange thing is that if i put a led in the strongest side, i read less milliamp going out from my battery. More leds i connect less mA i read but it don't get to 0mA. When i reach ~36mA and connect more leds, it get more mA.

This sounds normal to me. Mine behave this way too. Some do not, but most do.
Thank you for this report!

QuoteIt works with a toroide too instead of the crystal core coil but instead of taking a wire from different side for the input, i must take the two wire from the same side.Very strange.

Here is a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_O9jrp0tHT4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_O9jrp0tHT4)

Thanks for the video. It helps a lot.
I am just not sure what you mean by taking wire fromn the same side?? I can almost see it on the video.

Are you putting the crystal inductor in a series way from the pickup that is on the toroid?

thank you,

jeanna

edit add
@stprue

QuoteI can hear almost all of mine.

I have been trying to go to high frequency. The smaller toroids want to be higher frequency.
My thesis is that if I can get a high frequency to start with I can lower it to get the voltage I need .
Since the voltage and frequency go in opposite directions in a joule thief, I wanted to have the leeway.
The biggo likes 5.6khz.
I think that is what xee2 gets from his too.
just my thoughts.
j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on September 05, 2009, 02:47:34 PM

@ Jeanna

Let me know when you have results on the biggo replication, I would like to compare.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 05, 2009, 02:59:15 PM

@Stprue, first, I will ask a few questions.

You have 4 separate pickup wires made for each pickup. I mean instead of wrapping tha red pickup with 4 turns you wound it separately 4 times?
I am not sure why there are so many except they might go in opposite directions?

Also, you are not using the transistor base as a switch but instead you are using the emitter. Is that right?
I mean there is no resistor on the base of the transistor so there is no switch control at the base.
Instead you are controlling the switching at the emitter. I guess this will shut down the transistor in a similar way.

I will need to make and tune a big toroid for this.
Making it in the MK2x way.
I do not have one like that at the moment.

I also do not have those caps or that bridge.
I suspect you are getting a lot of your effect from this part of your circuit.

It is strange that it can light a neon but doesnot immediately blow a led.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on September 05, 2009, 06:28:29 PM

@all

I have conducted two test on the quad leaf.

The jt coils are each 4 turns one coil on top of the other , works with out caps 1k resistor .

First , i wound two of the toroid with 20 turns of 22 gauge bell wire.

I have selected two touching toroid , lets say north and east .

Test 1: voltage one 20 turns 50 volts .

Test 2 : check voltage under load , to see if the toroid would behave in the same way.

To do this i have on pickup coil connected to the voltmeter (with bridge) and the other pickup coil located on the second toroid charging a cap , and lighting a led.

Result , and important the led works fine on one pickup coil and the second pickup coil still shows 50 volts .

This is great !

Next step , will be to get a better voltage from tuning of the jt coils.

Also testing a coil web going form one toroid to the other making it a 3d ball , this will need a picture .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kamax on September 06, 2009, 12:41:46 AM

@jeanna
When i talk about opposite side(wire) from the input of a coil i mean on a normal joule thief toroide, if you have a red and black wire around the toroide, you must take the black on one side and the red but on the other end of the winding.
And the same side is red and black wire from the beginning of the winding.

Sorry if i don't explain very well, english is not my main language.

The crystal coil was in parallel to the toroide output but as say previously you can just put a led between the toroide output. with + side on transistor/collector and - side before the resistor and toroide.

I'm curious if someone notice the same current drop.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on September 06, 2009, 10:36:09 AM

:) Hello Jeanna, I am knew to this site, please could you send me a simple joule thief diagram powered by 1-aa that can light a fluoro, i have 2n3904 or 2n2222 transistors, I want to make AC to power fluoro's, please send to my e-mail treefern1@bigpond.com.au, thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 06, 2009, 01:55:02 PM

@Kamax,
Thank you for your explanation.
I think you are using the joule thief in the normal way from this last description.
Many of us have noticed that we use fewer amps with more leds on a joule thief. I believe we only noticed it when we used a secondary/ or/ pickup as we decided to call it.

And, as you described, it ets lower to a certain spot then goes no lower after that.

If you read this thread...(I know. It is long) you will see the numbers. We did talk about this a bit.

Hi freepow.
Welcome to this thread.
I made my first joule thief from the makezine video. I watched it a few times and downloaded the pdf which has pictures, then made one, then made another...

I have used the fuji circuit to light 1 or 2 fluoro tubes with 1-AA.
Also, I have used a big toroid and very large pickup to light a fluoro tube.

I did not use either of those transistors, however to light the fluoro tube.
I am sure it is possible, but I used the 2N3055 for my transistor on that one.

I recently bought a small toroid but this is bigger than my other small toroids. I am going to see if I can make a jt circuit using this and a 2N3904 or 2N2222 and light a fluoro.
The fuji circuit uses a small low voltage transistor, so I do not see why it won't work. But I need to do it to know.

So,
Try the makezine video and use the pdf.
Bill recommends the instructables instructions. I should check that out to see if I can recommend it myself.

anyway,
welcome to the joule thief fun.
It is best if you post all your trials etc right here in the open. This way other people still lurking can learn from you. Also, there are many others that can help... not just me! ;) (thanks for the compliment, just the same. )

@All,
I tried 2 toroids wound with a jt type wind on separate toroids and I was only able to light a basic led when I touched the battery on or off, so my conclusion is that the base is not turning on and off.
The transistor got hot too, so it wasn't turning off, I guess. Kind of strange.
I may try it one more time today... just in case something was loose yesterday.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on September 06, 2009, 07:12:46 PM

Near Rita's Tea Room ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: mikem_2au on September 06, 2009, 07:58:49 PM

@Mk1
I like what you have been doing with multiple toroid's, your
using one transistor and one collector winding, is this right?

my current experiment-

2 toroid's, each toroid with it's own 15 turn collector winding.
Each collector winding goes to it's own transistor, each
transistor has it's own Potentiometer.

1 base winding spanning across both toroid's, 6 turns on each
toroid.

40 turn 3rd winding on each toroid.
with one side under load i got a slight increase in voltage on
the other side.

I also tried this with two Fuji transformers, after separating
the 1700 turn winding from the base winding, each collector
winding went to it's own transistor, the two base windings
were connected in series to make one, the two 1700 turns
were connected in series with good results, then i tried
connecting the two 1700 turns in parallel to see if there
were any improvements in brightness of a cfl. the idea was
to have them in parallel, then using a momentary switch
to switch the two to series to start the cfl at a lower voltage.
Parallel wasn't a good idea, a 1700 turn on one transformer
FAILED.

mike..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on September 06, 2009, 08:23:16 PM

Quote from: mikem_2au on September 06, 2009, 07:58:49 PM
@Mk1
I like what you have been doing with multiple toroid's, your
using one transistor and one collector winding, is this right?

Yes only one transistor , and basic jt coils 4/4.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 06, 2009, 11:49:55 PM

Quote from: Cap-Z-ro on September 06, 2009, 07:12:46 PM
Near Rita's Tea Room ?

?? ?? ??

Since Rita's tearoom is not a joule thief I will post my not joule thief youtube video link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJz1FhO9uuI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJz1FhO9uuI)

I made a pond without a pond liner etc. It is an ecological exercise. (biology remember.) It is filling with water as we speak.

Enjoy,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on September 07, 2009, 04:19:53 AM

Hello everyone, i just joined as a new member on sunday night Australian time, my user-name is freepow,
I am attaching two joule thiefs that i,ve tried, both of these I used 2-AA i think, I could only measure just under 1 VAC with my digital multi-meter, should,nt it measure a good high VAC ??
I want to light a 240v - 4 watt fluoro with 1-AA, I dont want to use a disp-camera-circuit, any help with diagrams would be much appreciated, thanks.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on September 07, 2009, 12:34:21 PM

Quote from: freepow on September 07, 2009, 04:19:53 AM
Hello everyone, i just joined as a new member on sunday night Australian time, my user-name is freepow,
I am attaching two joule thiefs that i,ve tried, both of these I used 2-AA i think, I could only measure just under 1 VAC with my digital multi-meter, should,nt it measure a good high VAC ??
I want to light a 240v - 4 watt fluoro with 1-AA, I dont want to use a disp-camera-circuit, any help with diagrams would be much appreciated, thanks.

Welcome freepow

It looks like you have some experience building electronic stuff sense you got as far as you did before asking any questions

I will try to help you with a few basics .
How many of the previous posts have you read?

Like Jeanna I suggest using the 2N3055 It just seems to have more power .

As far as what to start with ........ a toroid can work , but I suggest finding an old TV or monitor and using the core from the flyback transistor .
This core is made for higher power than most toroids that you will be likely to find ........and if you wrap the round section with plastic or find the right size tube you can open up the core and remove the coil and try again with very little problems

I would also suggest the MK2 style of winding for the primarys
At first it may seem a bit more complicated than other ways it could be wound but after you do a few it is very simple .
Also it is easy and foolproof to connect .
Twist the ends of the wires together on one side of the core ........connect these to the Battery +
connect the other ends to the base and emiter .

I am adding a couple pictures .
The first is the MK2 Winding style

The picture shows 3 wraps on each leg .
With my flyback transformer core JT I got down to 1 wrap each side for the wire going to the base and 3 winds on each side for the other .
I suggest starting with 3 or 4 wraps on each leg .
Once it is running you can fine tune it ......
This picture shows only what we call the JT primarys

Pictire 2
Do you know about tank circuits ?
Sometimes a JT will not work without a cap for a resonant circuit .
This schematic is the basic JT circuit with tank that I use ...... I should add a secondary to this drawing .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 07, 2009, 12:55:53 PM

Quote from: freepow on September 07, 2009, 04:19:53 AM
.
I am attaching two joule thiefs that i,ve tried, both of these I used 2-AA i think,
I could only measure just under 1 VAC with my digital multi-meter,
should,nt it measure a good high VAC ??

Your digital multimeter will not be able to read the vac.
It can only guess and extrapolate it from the dc it reads.
Plus it cannot read the very thin spikes at all.

MK1 has a description of the way to see what you are getting.
It should be on the circuits page that Bill put up for ease of reference.
You use a bridge rectifier and 2 additional diodes and a cap to collect all the voltage then you can measure it.

QuoteI want to light a 240v - 4 watt fluoro with 1-AA, I dont want to use a disp-camera-circuit,
any help with diagrams would be much appreciated, thanks.

I just bought a 48inch one for myself.
It might be easier to get an 18 inch 25w bulb to glow because it is the phosphors that are responding to the high frequency high voltage and not the watts.

You also will need over 450 volts output to light one so more than 200 turns on the secondary and maybe more like 300 turns..

BTW, how many leds IN SERIES can you light with yours?
If you can get about 30 to light in series you should have enough to light a tube.

Americans do not have 240 volts wall plugs.
The canadians and other australians here do. (europeans too, but I don't think we have any europeans any more??)

have fun and check out the circuits page.

jeanna

BTW
your picture is

Quote* jt 1&2.jpg (49.6 KB, 1481x1721

It is too wide.
Please keep pictures to 600pixels wide until stephan fixes this textwrap bug.
thanks,
j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on September 07, 2009, 01:22:58 PM

freepow

Do you have a program for editing pictures ?
Your schematic is very wide .
It causes everyone to have to scroll back and forth to read all the posts on the same page .........sometimes the affect lasts several pages .
I use an image editor to crop my pictures so only what is needed gets posted .

I thought I would add a little more stuff that might help.
The first is a schematic of a Jesus charger .
It gives you a little feedback .
Most of my expermemts deal quite a bit with feedback
I connect the feedback to the ends of the cap in the Jesus charger .
The first picture is a schematic of a JT with a Jesus charger .

I always use the Jesus charger . I find the battery draw to be less when using it and it provides a quick easy way to connect feedback .

The second picture is of my actual Jesus charger .

The third picture is my flyback JT
Notice that the MK2 primary is on the ends of the core .....the blue and white wires still have the same number of wraps . I ended up with 1 white wrap going to the base and 3 blue wraps

This JT has 3 secondarys all wound together .
2 green #26 mag wire 75 ft each ......in parrallel these easily light a floro.
The other secondary is #22 mag wire 40 ft
It does not have the voltage required to light a floro.

The last picture is my flyback transflrmer core JT powering a 25 Watt CFL at about half brightness and a 90 LED array at about 1/4 brightness .
The 4 white circles below the LED array are coils for flyback and feedback .
The black square above my The board with the transistor and pot is a 10uF cap out of a microwave .
As you can see this is being powered by one AA battery

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on September 07, 2009, 01:29:26 PM

In place of the led output has anyone tried to put a zener diode in series with a capacitor? Then the capacitor could be used in a second lc tank circuit where the inductance of the lc circuit is the primary of a second torroidal transformer. For every pulse going into the ouput tank you will get alot of pulses to the output transformer. The input from the jt would then be amplified in the second oscillator. Pretty soon there will be alot more current in the second oscillator than there is coming in from the jt. The zener will act like a spark gap and only input power to the lc when the voltage is low or the power is being stored in the magnetic field of the second torroid. When the magnetic field collapses on the output transformer it will recharge the capacitor which will start at a higher q because of the input from the jt. You could take the output of the tank transformer and have it charge another capacitor through a zener and on up the voltage ladder until well insulation becomes a problem. A good way to pull the power from the system without damping the oscillations is to wrap some turns around the wires between the capacitor and the torroid. This forms a current transformer which will convert the current flow in the lc to current flow in an external circuit with minimal attenuation of the oscillations in the tank.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 07, 2009, 02:18:36 PM

sparks said:

Quote
In place of the led output has anyone tried to put a zener diode in series with a capacitor? ... The zener will act like a spark gap and only input power to the lc when the voltage is low or the power is being stored in the magnetic field of the second torroid.

@sparks
I had thought of that earlier in conjunction with an ambient atmospheric wire/capacitor system to charge a battery.
The zener would have acted like a spark gap, as you suggest, but without the radio broadband interference that comes with the spark.

--Lee

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 07, 2009, 02:30:22 PM

freepow said:

Quote
I am attaching two joule thiefs that i,ve tried, both of these I used 2-AA i think, I could only measure just under 1 VAC with my digital multi-meter, should,nt it measure a good high VAC ??
I want to light a 240v - 4 watt fluoro with 1-AA, I dont want to use a disp-camera-circuit, any help with diagrams would be much appreciated, thanks.

Welcome freepow,
I recognise you transistor arrangement as a darlington transistor pair, thus:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darlington_transistor
These are used as one transistor which act to increase current gain in an amplifier. Good use of components.

For 4 watts from and AA battery, you might try taking a lot of 1:1 toroids with one side at 5-12 volts paralleled, and then wire the opposite sides in series to give 240VAC outright. Adjust frequency for resonance as needed. You might need that many toroids, or the feeble AA might not even light the lamp.

--Lee

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on September 07, 2009, 04:17:41 PM

@all

I may have went a bit crazy here .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on September 08, 2009, 08:20:58 AM

:)Thankyou to every one for your help !
I have onle a few LED's so i dont know how many i can light, but with one JT of mine with a small toroid out of a CFL, I wound 6 turns bifilar on it and I get around 60 VDC, but I have not been very good with producing AC-Voltage as yet, I would like to use my ferrite toroid which is about one and a half inches diameter and use the transistors that i only have - which is a 2n3904 or a bc547 or 2n2222, and if someone can show me how to wind a primary and especially a SECONDARY on the toroid, so I can get some decent
AC-voltage from it, but i need the JT to work of course.
With one of my JT that have shoen yesterday on this sight, the LED only flicked on and off when i connected the battery, but when i added a wire from one side of the secondary and ran it to the collecter or base-cant remember which one, well I got it to light brightly, but the multi-meter only still read
AC-voltage of around 0.73v, i cant seem to get a nice 100 VAC or more, can someone suggest something with the transistors that i have and also the toroid that i have ?
Thanks to everyone.
Oh, also I cant find MK1's description of a way to measure your AC !
And i can get nice high volts of DC with that 1.5 inch toroid, but i need high AC so I can light my 4watter fluoro.
thanks for the nice photos and diagrams great stuff !!!
Hope to get some replys and diagrams thanks heaps.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on September 08, 2009, 08:46:17 AM

Quote from: jeanna on September 05, 2009, 02:59:15 PM
@Stprue, first, I will ask a few questions.

You have 4 separate pickup wires made for each pickup. I mean instead of wrapping tha red pickup with 4 turns you wound it separately 4 times?
I am not sure why there are so many except they might go in opposite directions?

Also, you are not using the transistor base as a switch but instead you are using the emitter. Is that right?
I mean there is no resistor on the base of the transistor so there is no switch control at the base.
Instead you are controlling the switching at the emitter. I guess this will shut down the transistor in a similar way.

I will need to make and tune a big toroid for this.
Making it in the MK2x way.
I do not have one like that at the moment.

I also do not have those caps or that bridge.
I suspect you are getting a lot of your effect from this part of your circuit.

It is strange that it can light a neon but doesnot immediately blow a led.

jeanna

I have 4 total pickup wires maybe 6'' or 7'' long. Each one is going in the same direction and wraped around the torroid 2 turns each. As for the transistor I am using it to the best of my knowledge the regular way but I'm make 2 extra connections.

You should be able to use other bridges and get very similar results but you are right aobut the caps, especially the small ones! Very important!!!

P.S. I'm not killing the led beacuse my neon is attached and I'm connecting the led after the neon which blocks the cap surges.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on September 08, 2009, 01:20:23 PM

Quote from: freepow on September 08, 2009, 08:20:58 AM
:)Thankyou to every one for your help !
I have onle a few LED's so i dont know how many i can light, but with one JT of mine with a small toroid out of a CFL, I wound 6 turns bifilar on it and I get around 60 VDC, but I have not been very good with producing AC-Voltage as yet, I would like to use my ferrite toroid which is about one and a half inches diameter and use the transistors that i only have - which is a 2n3904 or a bc547 or 2n2222, and if someone can show me how to wind a primary and especially a SECONDARY on the toroid, so I can get some decent
AC-voltage from it, but i need the JT to work of course.
With one of my JT that have shoen yesterday on this sight, the LED only flicked on and off when i connected the battery, but when i added a wire from one side of the secondary and ran it to the collecter or base-cant remember which one, well I got it to light brightly, but the multi-meter only still read
AC-voltage of around 0.73v, i cant seem to get a nice 100 VAC or more, can someone suggest something with the transistors that i have and also the toroid that i have ?
Thanks to everyone.
Oh, also I cant find MK1's description of a way to measure your AC !
And i can get nice high volts of DC with that 1.5 inch toroid, but i need high AC so I can light my 4watter fluoro.
thanks for the nice photos and diagrams great stuff !!!
Hope to get some replys and diagrams thanks heaps.

You should be able to light your floro with hight voltage DC also.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 08, 2009, 02:24:56 PM

Quote from: freepow on September 08, 2009, 08:20:58 AM
:)Thankyou to every one for your help !
I have onle a few LED's so i dont know how many i can light, but with one JT of mine with a small toroid out of a CFL, I wound 6 turns bifilar on it and I get around 60 VDC, but I have not been very good with producing AC-Voltage as yet, I would like to use my ferrite toroid which is about one and a half inches diameter and use the transistors that i only have - which is a 2n3904 or a bc547 or 2n2222, and if someone can show me how to wind a primary and especially a SECONDARY on the toroid, so I can get some decent
AC-voltage from it, but i need the JT to work of course.
With one of my JT that have shoen yesterday on this sight, the LED only flicked on and off when i connected the battery, but when i added a wire from one side of the secondary and ran it to the collecter or base-cant remember which one, well I got it to light brightly, but the multi-meter only still read
AC-voltage of around 0.73v, i cant seem to get a nice 100 VAC or more, can someone suggest something with the transistors that i have and also the toroid that i have ?
Thanks to everyone.
Oh, also I cant find MK1's description of a way to measure your AC !
And i can get nice high volts of DC with that 1.5 inch toroid, but i need high AC so I can light my 4watter fluoro.
thanks for the nice photos and diagrams great stuff !!!
Hope to get some replys and diagrams thanks heaps.

Others can correct me if I am not correct but I believe you are already getting ac from your JT circuits, if they are made in the "standard" JT configuration...bifilar windings, ferrite core, transistor, etc.

As Jeanna said, you can't really measure ac on a regular DMM. It will show a number but, it will not be accurate at all.

So, my advice would be to get an 18" tube to start with and try your circuits. If they will not light it, there are tons of circuits posted here by many that will. Check our other sister topic (the diagrams topic) for diagrams and listings for their location within this topic.

The Fuji is the easiest way to light big tubes but plenty of folks here have some pretty simple circuits that will light them at a good light level and for a long time.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on September 08, 2009, 02:26:39 PM

Quote from: freepow on September 08, 2009, 08:20:58 AM
:)Thankyou to every one for your help !
I have onle a few LED's so i dont know how many i can light, but with one JT of mine with a small toroid out of a CFL, I wound 6 turns bifilar on it and I get around 60 VDC, but I have not been very good with producing AC-Voltage as yet, I would like to use my ferrite toroid which is about one and a half inches diameter and use the transistors that i only have - which is a 2n3904 or a bc547 or 2n2222, and if someone can show me how to wind a primary and especially a SECONDARY on the toroid, so I can get some decent
AC-voltage from it, but i need the JT to work of course.
With one of my JT that have shoen yesterday on this sight, the LED only flicked on and off when i connected the battery, but when i added a wire from one side of the secondary and ran it to the collecter or base-cant remember which one, well I got it to light brightly, but the multi-meter only still read
AC-voltage of around 0.73v, i cant seem to get a nice 100 VAC or more, can someone suggest something with the transistors that i have and also the toroid that i have ?
Thanks to everyone.
Oh, also I cant find MK1's description of a way to measure your AC !
And i can get nice high volts of DC with that 1.5 inch toroid, but i need high AC so I can light my 4watter fluoro.
thanks for the nice photos and diagrams great stuff !!!
Hope to get some replys and diagrams thanks heaps.

freepow

Thanks for cropping your schematic

If you are getting 60 V from a 20 wrap secondary you have a good grasp of the basics .

The rest is what you could call fine tuning .
Others here are much better at fine tuning than I am .
Unfortunatly it is not as simple as giving you a number of wraps for each winding ......even knowing that you got your toroid out of a CFL
There are many different manufacturers of CFLs and many sizes of CFLs

OK ............. so you have 60 V with 6 turns bifilar .
Have you tried 5 turns ?
If you can get the primary to work with less turns the voltage on your secondary will go up .
Some toroids can run with 3wraps bifilar ....... if yours will .....you will probably have about 120V

Once you have the primarys down to minimum wraps .....then you add a secondary with more wraps .

You need to have a secondary on the toroid to tune the primarys .
Once the primarys are tuned ..... you can pretty much see about how much you need to add .
You can then take off your original secondary and put on a new secondary lets say 3 times more wraps if your voltage was around 1/3 of where you wanted it .

At some point you will run into the upper power limit of your transitor ..... the windings will just not put out the voltage they should .
Space for the secondarys on the toroid will also become a problem

About measuring
All digital multimeters seem to have their own way of measuing AC
Some work better than others but in general none of them are very accurate .
The are usually based on 50 or 60 cycles per second ...... JTs are MUCH faster than that.

Maybe the best way is to get a High voltage cap ......and a high voltage bridge
Use the bridge to rectify the output of your JT .....then feed it to the cap
Any meter can then get a good reading of the DC in the cap .

The cap will charge quickly to the top of the bulk of the peaks .....it will eventually charge up to close to the voltage of the tall skinny spikes .....but that takes much longer .

If you want a " free " HV cap look for an old microwave oven that is being thrown out . I found a 1000V 10uF cap in a big microwave .

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

Did you try adding a tank circuit .......like in the schematic I posted ?
From my experience you can pump more power though a transistor if you have a good sized cap parrallel with the base resistor .
Speaking of the base resistor ..... I hope that you are using a pot for the base resistor .......for tuning JT each time you change something ......run run the pot to its limits slowly ....... you will sometimes find resonance ...... when that happens you will get more output with less input .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on September 09, 2009, 08:37:51 PM

:) Hello, yes i tried your cap next to base res, thanks.
I have wound a toroid with single wire of about 50-60 turns then I wound on that a bifilar winding of 4 turns, then i connected the bifilar windings to circuit as you normally do, then with the single 50-60 turn - I connected that only to a led, it lit brightly, but its a seperate winding on same coil but on same toroid, so it must be AC ???
if so, I cant measure any decent voltage on my multi-meter, yet its lighting a led brightly, any comments???

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 09, 2009, 09:27:37 PM

Quote from: freepow on September 09, 2009, 08:37:51 PM
...

... with the single 50-60 turn - I connected that only to a led, it lit brightly, but its a seperate winding on same coil but on same toroid, so it must be AC ???
if so, I cant measure any decent voltage on my multi-meter, yet its lighting a led brightly, any comments???

I am surprised you still have your led!
I usually do not put more than 7 turns of a pickup (that would be the single wound one) per led. Any more than that and the led is gon-zo.

So, If you don't have enough leds, then wrap a 7 turn single pickup and use that to see. It will work. Just wrap it around with the other one. It will probably light the led and not blow it out.

Good going,

jeanna

ps
the only way you will see the ac is with a scope.
You need to put the output through a rectifier into a cap to count the voltage.
I bet you have plenty.

ps#2
The other day I decided to wrap a fluoro lighting toroid with a newer smaller toroid. I got 350v from about 330 turns. I am pretty sure if I make up a 2N3055 that it will work,
The transistor needs to give over 400 volts, more like 450 or 500v to light up a fluoro tube with voltage spikes and not amps.
but with the 2N3904 it lights a neon, (220v is all I need for that) but not a fluoro... yet.
MK1 told us he was never able to get a fluoro lit with a 2N3904 or 2N2222 either.
They are great little transistors.
I like to know the limits of things. If you keep persisting, you might just show all of us that it is possible, so I say keep going.
But don't forget to try the 2N3055 also.

j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 09, 2009, 09:34:57 PM

Exactly what Jeanna said. The only thing I might add is that leds light well on both ac and dc and she is correct about the scope. I toasted more leds this way in the early days then I care to remember.

They were really, really bright...for a second or two, and then I began to smell this really awful smell and...poof. I fried a group of 6 ultrabright leds on a wound toroid JT using a dead AA battery. It was good news tho as I was just hoping they might light a little and ended up smoking them.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 09, 2009, 09:41:19 PM

;D
That is pretty funny, Bill.

We have interesting standards here, don't we?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on September 09, 2009, 11:21:03 PM

Quote from: freepow on September 09, 2009, 08:37:51 PM
:) Hello, yes i tried your cap next to base res, thanks.
I have wound a toroid with single wire of about 50-60 turns then I wound on that a bifilar winding of 4 turns, then i connected the bifilar windings to circuit as you normally do, then with the single 50-60 turn - I connected that only to a led, it lit brightly, but its a seperate winding on same coil but on same toroid, so it must be AC ???
if so, I cant measure any decent voltage on my multi-meter, yet its lighting a led brightly, any comments???

Freepow

As far as I know the secondarys or pickups as we often call them are always AC ......but there are different flavors of AC.
WIth some JTs if you look at the secondarys with a scope you will see that most of the waveform is one one side of the line .......that is it is mostly positive or mostly negative .

Like Jeanna I am surprised that you did not blow out your LED as soon as you connected the power .
Did you try the LED both ways ?
It is possible that if your JT has most of the voltage on one side and you lit the LED backwards with the weak side .......the LED might have had an inhibiting effect on the strong side.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on September 09, 2009, 11:24:21 PM

Quote from: freepow on September 09, 2009, 08:37:51 PM
:) Hello, yes i tried your cap next to base res, thanks.
I have wound a toroid with single wire of about 50-60 turns then I wound on that a bifilar winding of 4 turns, then i connected the bifilar windings to circuit as you normally do, then with the single 50-60 turn - I connected that only to a led, it lit brightly, but its a seperate winding on same coil but on same toroid, so it must be AC ???
if so, I cant measure any decent voltage on my multi-meter, yet its lighting a led brightly, any comments???

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on September 09, 2009, 11:37:12 PM

:)Thanks resonanceman, but how come my digital mm only says under 1 volt AC, and i still cant light my 240VAC 4 watt fluoro with that circuit and toroid winding, I've have seen some pictures of youtube JT's that show a normal digital mm measuring 700+ AC, yet i cant even know how much i'm getting of this winding that i mentioned, how much AC do you think i'm puttint out???

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on September 09, 2009, 11:51:32 PM

Here is my toroid winding...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 10, 2009, 12:01:17 AM

Quote from: freepow on September 09, 2009, 11:37:12 PM
...how come my digital mm only says under 1 volt AC,
... I've have seen some pictures of youtube JT's that show a normal digital mm measuring 700+ AC,

This reply is on the new installation of ubuntu.. I may fumble a bit.

I cannot say what those youtube videos are showing, but not one of us here has ever gotten the joule thief ac to show up correctly on a dmm.

The other thing is you will probably need more turns than 60.
I know xee2 got a fluoro tube to light with 80, but I think he holds the record for the least number of turns.
I am not aware of anyone who has lit a fluorotube using the 2N2222 or 2N3904. Xee2 never uses that kind of transistor at all.

You can do this.
We who wanted to have all done it.
but you may need to modify what you are trying a bit... Maybe not.

Quoteyet i cant even know how much i'm getting of this winding that i mentioned, how much AC do you think i'm puttint out???

yup, that is the hard part.
I tried to find a scale so someone could compare but I was not able to, but I am sure if your dmm says less than 1 volt that you have less than 100volts.
You will need NOT 240volts, but 500v.
This is different. You need about twice what the "normal" amount would be.

So, wind up a lot more.
Also, if you can find some leds (ebay has chinese ones for under $10/100 leds directly from china). You can put 6 to 8 of them in series with your toroid and get a light that is very bright.

It is not the same challenge, but the light from 6-8 leds could actually be MORE than from the 4 watt fluoro.

It is all fun too.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dankie on September 10, 2009, 12:14:02 AM

Hi ,

If you have a inexautible supply of electrons @ 3 volts DC , you should make an cmos inverter with a VERY BIG WINDING 50:1 transformer .

If that doesnt work , there is not much hope for jules thief , the voltage is too much a limiting factor ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on September 10, 2009, 08:01:34 AM

Can you light up an AC-fluoro on very high DC-joule thief that is bifilar wound???
Can you get 300+ volts in DC from one bifilar wound toroid???
And can someone draw me a simple joule thief circuit that works, that put out at least 50 volts AC...please, thanks.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on September 10, 2009, 10:48:27 AM

Quote from: freepow on September 09, 2009, 11:37:12 PM
:)Thanks resonanceman, but how come my digital mm only says under 1 volt AC, and i still cant light my 240VAC 4 watt fluoro with that circuit and toroid winding, I've have seen some pictures of youtube JT's that show a normal digital mm measuring 700+ AC, yet i cant even know how much i'm getting of this winding that i mentioned, how much AC do you think i'm puttint out???

Freepow

It is impossible to say how much your JT is putting out .
With a JT the way to tell is according to what you can do with it .

I have some LED arrays that I took out LED floodlights .
The normal out of the box operating voltage for my 60 LED array is 84V but I have driven it with different JTs with an indicated voltage ( same meter as I measured the 84V .....same location ) of 18 V up to 250V
I think with the 18V I was lighting the LEDs with the spikes .
I have no idea why the 250V did not burn the array out instantly .
I did burn one array out and damaged a meter and fried a 3055 ......all in a split second . I was making a JT using a MOT ( microwave oven transformer )

How did you arrive at 4 turns bifilar ?
Did you start with more than 4?

4 should work unless you have a high permeability toroid .
I always suggest starting with more wraps and taking some off once you get it going .
It will not fail to work because of to many wraps ......it WILL fail to work if there are to few wraps for that particular toroid .

According to your picture you have your primarys on top of your secondary.
I have played with this some ........ it can work but in general you need more wraps to make it work .
for now .......forget about your blue bifilar .
The winding I have drawn should also be bifilar .
wrap it in the open space between the ends of your secondary .
Keep the windings close to each other .
Notice I drew it with the wraps touching on the inside of the toroid .
I twist the ends of the primarys together so that the outside of the windings are touching also .
4 wraps may work . I would start with 5 or 6 then hopefully get it down to 4......maybe 3

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on September 10, 2009, 06:13:24 PM

Thanks, but with my winding, all that happens is a bright led light ok on the secondary, but if i connect the led to the bifilar and emitter, it light very bright, it seems that the secondary is not out putting much AC at all, i'm not having much luck with any high AC no matter what winding i am doing, whats going wrong ?
I have tied that blue bifilar winding with 20 wraps originally-got around 113v i think, then decreased it each time and the volts also went down, so i ended up down to 4 turns, but why is the secondary of mine with 60 turns only lighting led just OK-and is not burning it out either???
I need some high AC, but cant seem to get any!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 10, 2009, 08:24:13 PM

@ freepow:

As Gary has said, a lot of this depends on your toroid...permeability, size, material, etc. Try replicating one of the many designs posted both here, and on our diagrams topic, that are proven to work. Then, go from there to hopefully, improve them.

There are folks here getting over 1,500 vac from hand wound JT circuits so you, if you do everything they did and use the same materials, should be able to do that too.

I always recommend replication to get started and then, by all means, experimentation.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 10, 2009, 08:44:10 PM

Quote from: freepow on September 10, 2009, 06:13:24 PM
Thanks, but with my winding, all that happens is a bright led light ok on the secondary, but if i connect the led to the bifilar and emitter, it light very bright, it seems that the secondary is not out putting much AC at all

freepow,
Are you removing the bifilar led?
We call that one the Basic Joule Thief Light, or BJTL. So, Did you remove the BJTL?
That will help the light from the pickup.
One important thing to remember is that this BJTL is the thief. It takes all the juice from the battery.

If you use just the pickup, the amps draw from the battery will go down, and you will be able to keep a battery going longer.

Quotei'm not having much luck with any high AC no matter what winding i am doing, whats going wrong ?
I have tied that blue bifilar winding with 20 wraps originally-got around 113v i think, then decreased it each time and the volts also went down,

Perhaps you have what is called a 'high permeability' toroid. They need a lot of turns to get their effect here and I do not believe they are any good for this purpose.

Sometimes it is hard to get started.
Sometimes you need more turns on the collector, but then with some toroids you need more on the base.
I would say go back to the 20T bifilar.
Let me ask is it 20 total? so it is 10T,10T = that is how we write it symbolically in our group.
I am assuming you have it 10T,10T. So, put that back as you had it. Now, take away one at a time from the coil that is connected to the base resistor.

See how that goes. Then you can try it the other way.

Another important piece, and this may be all it is. You must use one of those super bright leds.
The reason is that they are painted with fluorescent paint, just like the inside of the fluorotubes. (this is done to change the color from blue to white) Now, this makes your superbright a tiny fluorescent bulb. The light is very bright but has a different quality when it is using high frequency high voltage and not watts.
You aren't there yet, but you must get a superbright to continue.

Well, you can continue with the red, but it is an ordinary led without any phosphorescence and you will not get the same effect with it ever.

OK?

Keep going.

I hope you can find some super bright leds to use.
I also hope you can find a good source for toroids.

BTW, if your toroid was used inside a 240v CFL, it may not have the right properties to do the job from a 1.2v battery. It was in a device that was meant to have 240v input, and it only needed to create a boost of 150 to 200volts. You must boost from 1.2v. And that is a big difference..

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on September 11, 2009, 02:41:04 AM

Hi again, thanks everone for your response, its great to talk to people with same interests ! :)
Well this toroid that i'm using on this circuit now is a 1.5 inch diameter ferrite bought from jaycar electronic in Aust, and hand wound with 2 wires, each wire of 20 turns together (bifilar),
I have one 14-16,000 mcd LED, it light very brightly with DC on this toroid at about 113v, when I connect double volts = 3v, I get about 240-256v on multi-meter, so I went down to 4 turns with 2 wires, that = about 30-40v, then I wound on opposite side about 60 turns single wire, and when I use that 60 turn secondary for my 14-16,000 mcd LED, it lights just ok, dont know whats going wrong, cant be much AC-V
in that 60t, else it would be bright, so, dont honestly know whats wrong.
I'm trying some experiments, so I can light up each room in the house, without using the mains power, ideally i'd like to use 1-aa JT with super bright LED - several in each room... OR ... 1-aa JT with a 15 watt fluoro in each room etc.
But the only thing i cannot seem to get past - is getting decent high volts of AC !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on September 11, 2009, 02:48:21 AM

Almost forgot to say...that i did take led off bifilar and put it on secondary 60t side, thats what i did and led lit just ok, but only on bifilar it very bright !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on September 11, 2009, 10:48:06 AM

Quote from: freepow on September 11, 2009, 02:48:21 AM
Almost forgot to say...that i did take led off bifilar and put it on secondary 60t side, thats what i did and led lit just ok, but only on bifilar it very bright !

Freepow

I am guessing you may be running into power limit problems .
The 2222s and 3904s just don;t have alot of power .
You are using a fairly large toroid . Didn't you say you had a toroid out of a CFL?
The little toroid might work better with the small transistors you have.

From my own experience it seems like if you try to use a secondary with to many turns it bogs down the whole JT

Do you have any space free on the toroid ?
If so you might try a small secondary .......5 or 10 wraps and see what happens .

If the smaller secondary works .... there is a very good chance that the larger secondary will work with a bigger transitor .......like the 2N3055

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: brownsville on September 11, 2009, 02:41:42 PM

Hi all,

I have been away for over a month and have a lot of catching up to do.

I took apart an old scanner / copier / fax machine about a month and a half ago and found that there is a long thin fluorescent tube and a circuit running the tube it works on 12 volt and mili amps. Have not had time to get it working but thought someone else here could take a look at one..They seem to be readily available for free. Sorry I don't have more time to send pictures that I took of the circuit. There appear to be a couple of 2n222 timers and a few capacitors and a high voltage coil that light up the tube.

Hi Bill.

Brownsville

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 11, 2009, 04:47:01 PM

@Brownsville,
Hi... welcome,

Wilby (aka wilbeinebriated, I think the sp?) lit one of those and made it into a funny joke with a beer jug. He called it a beer lite or something... If you missed that, go hunt it down. He gave specs.

Quote from: freepow on September 11, 2009, 02:41:04 AM
Hi again, thanks everone for your response, its great to talk to people with same interests ! :)
Well this toroid that i'm using on this circuit now is a 1.5 inch diameter ferrite bought from jaycar electronic in Aust

Excellent. This is great because once you get it right you can get another!

Quote
, and hand wound with 2 wires, each wire of 20 turns together (bifilar),

So, 40 turns? That is a lot of turns.
But since it did well, it may be what you need, so hold that thought.

QuoteI have one 14-16,000 mcd LED, it light very brightly with DC on this toroid at about 113v, when I connect double volts = 3v, I get about 240-256v on multi-meter,

I do not believe this is that many volts, because you can't do that to a led. They burn up at too many volts, and we have been blasting ours not by burning but by high volts high frequency. They get bright for one moment then nothing.

What does it mean "double=3v"?[EDIT:
Are you saying you use 3v input and get 240v output?
Something is seriously wrong with this.
The input voltage is there only to make the transistor work. I have never found much of an increase with the addition of a second battery. end edit]

can you get a neon from your electronics store?
It will light at the voltages you are reporting and then you will know.

Quoteso I went down to 4 turns with 2 wires, that = about 30-40v, ...
in that 60t, else it would be bright, so, dont honestly know whats wrong.
...
But the only thing i cannot seem to get past - is getting decent high volts of AC !

How do you know what the volts are?
They do NOT show up properly on a dmm.
The regular dc volts in the regular dc circuit is all you can read from a dmm.

I think you should be getting 60 volts with 4T4T60T set up but that will also depend on the value of the resistor at the base.(AND the kind of toroid, AND the transistor)
Have you ever told us what that resistor value is?
1k is where to start. Some toroids will work with a higher resistor but just go down from 1k for the start.
I have many toroids that like 245ohm as well as 35ohm, so there are 2 spots, but I learned this from a scope.
MK1 uses a potentiometer and rectifies the output from the pickup through a rectifier . Each end of the rectifier output is run further through another diode because the high frequency maybe ignores the diodes sometimes, and then he collects it in a big cap- the kind of cap you find in a disposable circuit.
The dmm can accurately tell you what the cap collected. Put it on HV for safety.
Is this how you are getting the ac output information that you are reporting?

There is no question about it, you must fiddle with all the pieces. But once you get it right, you can repeat the results in each room. This is my idea. I have used one led in each room for many years, but they are not bright enough in the normal circuit. These leds from the pickup are great. Not because one is brighter, but because you can light 15 of them.

I am not sure how to help. You just have to keep fiddling with different numbers of turns and resistance for each toroid and transistor you use.

sorry, I can't help better,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on September 11, 2009, 06:11:46 PM

@freepow

Welcome, just make sure that every time you change anything on your jt ,you adjust the base resistor , usually toroid work better at some freq , so to make sure you improve things and not test blindly , use a pot at the base of the jt and always rectify and note the best value , once you get over 100 volts , you should be able to read the secondary (pickup coil) with out diodes on the ac set up .

2n3055 and 2n2222 works on my tube not 3904 .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dllabarre on September 11, 2009, 07:21:25 PM

@Jeanna, Bill, anyone

What was that website where you buy your toroids from?
I thought I saved the URL but can't find it now.

Thanks,
DonL

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 11, 2009, 08:17:39 PM

Quote from: dllabarre on September 11, 2009, 07:21:25 PM

What was that website where you buy your toroids from?
DonL

I got the tor-23 and the biggo and I am now testing the tor-61 from
http://www.allelectronics.com/ (http://www.allelectronics.com/)
I got the filter which has made awesome MK1 setups
and the med 5/$1 which I find very mediocre from
http://www.goldmine-elec.com/ (http://www.goldmine-elec.com/)
The filter is in the inductors section and has 1.39mH per side 2 sides already wound and you can save them or play with part of it or take it off.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief 4W fluoro tube lights with new toroid
Post by: jeanna on September 11, 2009, 10:03:23 PM

Yeay!

I got this latest new LITTLE toroid to light a fluoro.
I couldn't get the tube warm enough to light the 18 inch one, but since the 4w fits in my hand, it warmed right up and lit as soon as I touched the other end.

I had to hold the left side and touch the right connection. I could get a glow under my hand on the 18 inch one, but it just would not spread. This was a cinch.

I had 350 volts max with the 2N3904 but when I put in the 2N3055, it too said 356v across the secondary, but I could tune it higher and I got it up to 411v well, 105-411v waving backNforth.

2N3055
4T,4T,306T back and forth 4 times, I think
68pF cap across base resistor
65R
3 more battery caps
47uF across the battery
2 more 47uF caps in series then parallel to the battery.
These perhaps need to be changed. I was trying things the other day and never changed these battcaps since then.

yeay!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief 4W fluoro tube lights with new toroid
Post by: dllabarre on September 11, 2009, 10:13:43 PM

Quote from: jeanna on September 11, 2009, 10:03:23 PM
Yeay!

I got this latest new LITTLE toroid to light a fluoro.
I couldn't get the tube warm enough to light the 18 inch one, but since the 4w fits in my hand, it warmed right up and lit as soon as I touched the other end.

I had to hold the left side and touch the right connection. I could get a glow under my hand on the 18 inch one, but it just would not spread. This was a cinch.

I had 350 volts max with the 2N3904 but when I put in the 2N3055, it too said 356v across the secondary, but I could tune it higher and I got it up to 411v well, 105-411v waving backNforth.
jeanna

AWESOME! WTG!

Can't wait to see the schematic when you get it finalized!
I want to repro. one.

DonL

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 11, 2009, 10:26:36 PM

Hi DonL
The schematic is the same. Just the toroid changed.
I guess I could make one for the record... oK I will.

jeanna
edit here it is...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 12, 2009, 12:23:04 AM

Jeanna:

Nice job! On the larger tube, try using a neo (a very strong one) to "drag" the light down the tube. I have done that and it seems to work. I have no idea why. Once the entire tube is lit, remove the mag. and it stays lit.

Great going.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief + a thought crosses my mind...?
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 12, 2009, 12:49:40 AM

jeanna said:

Quote
The schematic is the same. Just the toroid changed.
I guess I could make one for the record... oK I will.

Hi Jeanna,
Glad you uploaded the file picture that went with this quotation(Reply #9450). Simple and powerful.

But it occurs to me: Have you thought of tapping some the power coming off your pickup coil, rectifying it, and bringing it back to the positive side of the battery?
I anticipate problems? 1) Other researchers find it hard to power anything, and especially, self-recharge a battery from the generating circuit. And, 2) It would dim your output lamp, possibly seriously?

BTW, do we celebrate when the Joule Thief thread records 10,000 posts? I'm not much of a party-goer. :o ;)

--Lee

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dllabarre on September 12, 2009, 08:23:54 AM

Quote from: jeanna on September 11, 2009, 10:26:36 PM
Hi DonL
The schematic is the same. Just the toroid changed.
I guess I could make one for the record... oK I will.

jeanna

Thank you for the schematic

What size wire are you using on the Toroid?
each 4 turns:
306 turns:

What is the diameter (outside & inside) of this Toroid?

NICE WORK!

DonL

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on September 12, 2009, 03:13:16 PM

@all

My survival instinct got me searching , this need to be seen by every one .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyofhLYYVC8

1.5 volt light now heat .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on September 12, 2009, 03:39:54 PM

Very cool Mk1...nice find!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 12, 2009, 06:40:12 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on September 12, 2009, 12:23:04 AM
Jeanna:

Nice job! On the larger tube, try using a neo (a very strong one) to "drag" the light down the tube. I have done that and it seems to work. I have no idea why. Once the entire tube is lit, remove the mag. and it stays lit.

Great going.

Bill

Thank you!

I did try that and every other trick.
Today without any plan except to learn the edges of this since it was already successful... I took out some of the caps and tried it without the magnet/s.
I could do almost anything except remove the magnets on the 4w but no thing I did made the bigger one/s light.

Here is how close it is, though:
I put one magnet on the left side and I hold the tube with my left hand.
I snap a magnet onto the right connector and as long as my right hand stays there, the tube just under my hand lights up. I can spread the light to the right about 1/3 the length of the tube then even that stops.
If I put my hands on both ends the light is out.
I took out most of the battery caps and even the 68pF base cap, and the light stayed on.
But I needed the resistor cap to start it.

I am wondering if the AAA is just too wimpy. It only lasts about 30 minutes. Maybe that startup just takes too many amps. It only holds 750mA fully charged. A pair of these work for weeks/months with an ordinary dc circuit with a 47ohm resistor. I think I need to try a AA before I am done experimenting with this one.

@Lee,
I am letting others do that part.
When xee2 reported that he had an easy start on a tube when he put one of his pickup lines back into the battery, I tried it, but it didn't seem to help me too much. The magnet seems to be my best starter switch.

I am watching those people and I take note of what they do.

jeanna
edit
Yes, MK1 those are cool videos.

2nd edit

Quotehank you for the schematic

What size wire are you using on the Toroid?
each 4 turns:
306 turns:

What is the diameter (outside & inside) of this Toroid?

NICE WORK!

DonL

The toroid is about 1 1/4 inches OD and 1 or 7/8 inch ID.
tor-61 from allelectronics.com 2/$1 ooo expensive 50 cents! ;D
It seems to be the same material as the tor-23 which I love. I got my wish. I wanted something like the tor-23 that was big enough to hold more wire.

I used 27awg wire. It is red cuz I got it from gobrushless.
The 4T,4T are made of telephone wire.
I made progress in the method of winding the toroid or rather managing the 24 feet of wire.
I loaded a bamboo barbeque skewer into the end of my hand drill. Then holding the counted out 24 feet of wire in one hand allowed it to feed onto the skewer as I turned the drill's handle. It went on easily and allowed me to 'sew' the wire through the center. I had to tug at the end, but there is still a lot more room for more turns fed through without the skewer.

j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dllabarre on September 12, 2009, 08:07:02 PM

@Jeanna

Thank you for the details on the toroid!

DonL

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on September 13, 2009, 07:55:27 AM

:o whoo hoo !!!
great work on lighting the 4 watter, wish i could too, got to just keep experimenting !
the 240v i got is DC only by the way.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 13, 2009, 04:36:15 PM

Quote from: freepow on September 13, 2009, 07:55:27 AM
:o whoo hoo !!!
great work on lighting the 4 watter, wish i could too, got to just keep experimenting !
the 240v i got is DC only by the way.

I hate to disagree here but, if you built any kind of joule thief circuit like those on this topic, there is no way you are getting dc out of it. Most of mine use the 2N3904 or the 3055 but, whatever the transistor used will not give you dc on the output. If you are using bifilar windings with no secondary you will get pulsed dc, which is part of the secret to these JT circuits. Pulsed dc can not be measured accurately, if at all, on a dmm or even analog meter. If you have wound any type of secondary, you will be getting ac on the output from the secondary. Others can correct me if I am wrong but when using a transistor I think a dc output is just not possible.

As mentioned by others, you can rectify the output and obtain some measurements that way but, I did a lot of experiments with these circuits long before I got my scope. I did it as Jeanna and others have suggested. I just kept adding more leds and made changes and then, if I could light even more of them, I knew I was going in the right direction. If less of them lit, well...you know.

I hope this helps.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 13, 2009, 08:06:22 PM

Here is a great video on how to use your pc as a scope for under $30.00:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAc2_1Tb-Xk&feature=sub

This guy is a very good experimenter.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 13, 2009, 10:23:37 PM

That is great...Slayer007, thanks.

Bill or slayer or really anyone who knows,
Where is my soundcard?
Is it the headphones?
the mic?
Do I need to go inside?
I am using an acer 5515 laptop running ubuntu, now.

Dumb questions, but it sounds and looks good...

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on September 13, 2009, 10:29:07 PM

Quote from: jeanna on September 13, 2009, 10:23:37 PM
That is great...Slayer007, thanks.

Bill or slayer or really anyone who knows,
Where is my soundcard?
Is it the headphones?
the mic?
Do I need to go inside?
I am using an acer 5515 laptop running ubuntu, now.

Dumb questions, but it sounds and looks good...

jeanna

Jeanna no need to open your computer.
It will just plug in were your mic is.
Or It can also be setup for the differant ports in your sound card.

The software I'm using is visual analyzer it's a free program.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 13, 2009, 10:39:34 PM

Thanks for such a quick answer. Also an easy one. plugging into the mic is great.
I apologize for not rating this vid yet.
firefox isn't recognizing me and I cannot remember my youtube pwd, so I will go on the mac, but later.

Do you think there is voltage protection against the high spikes of the jtc through the sound card?
I know people do this but we get really high spikes.
(I didn't pay much for this but I would have to pay plenty for another one!)

I am also surprised the frequency was handled.
A sound card has no reason to work above 20khz. My latest is only 12khz, but many are above 50khz.
What was your sec frequency and how do you count it? Do you literally count the squares?

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dllabarre on September 13, 2009, 11:44:20 PM

Quote from: slayer007 on September 13, 2009, 10:29:07 PM
Jeanna no need to open your computer.
It will just plug in were your mic is.
Or It can also be setup for the differant ports in your sound card.

The software I'm using is visual analyzer it's a free program.

Where did you get your sound card oscilloscope probe?
I only see one for sale on ebay.

Thanks
DonL

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on September 14, 2009, 02:13:20 AM

Quote from: dllabarre on September 13, 2009, 11:44:20 PM
Where did you get your sound card oscilloscope probe?
I only see one for sale on ebay.

Thanks
DonL

This looks like a good deal. You will need to replace the BNC connector with a mic plug (which I think you can get at Radio Shack).

http://www.google.com/product_url?q=http://www.virtualvillage.com/100mhz-1x-and-10x-oscilloscope-probe/sku001482-001%3Futm_source%3Dgooglebase%26utm_medium%3Dshcomp%26utm_campaign%3D100mhz%25201X%2520and%252010X%2520Oscilloscope%2520Probe&fr=ALIsMzxYMFA0_LOq_xtcDHGkPVgWOf2B9WMGCDa0vJX5ZnTJvdjTsXplw_xXitfBtIuogtvdc6S6XKBi8IpJGxdDzf8gXcfLDK5rQs6B_J4n2S-BXzf_n4gCtKJ8pPMuiJw91MKoSagqEkOK8MF53TmMMEIhH3WuWhUbT2hSi8v7QHKN82-uLrOcJubx40sBXv34xL6SDz81nJbuaD2yEsBmt_Tw32VMjWUdPa3A-lDvbXh8oNRO8j4iNIq5FME2Y-HxZSxiDnHCy6UnPxaG-MAJIe8qtvt09etdIGkHHak6AAAAAAAAAAA&gl=us&hl=en&sa=title

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Thaelin on September 14, 2009, 05:21:33 AM

Just be VERY aware that you can easily overdrive the input and burn it out.
Once done, its toast. Already did it on an old laptop just playing around. Best you
can see with it is about 20k as it was meant to do human sounds. The signal gen
will only go that far too.

thay

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on September 14, 2009, 05:28:37 AM

@Jeanna

Yes the probes do have some voltage protection.
There only supposed to let 3v get back to the soundcard.

@Dllabarre

I found this on ebay it was $22 plus shipping.

@Xee2
I don't think that probe will work for the PC.
The probe I'm using is made to work with the pc soundcard.

This is the probe I'm using.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Sound-Card-Oscilloscope-Spectrum-Analyzer-Probe-audio_W0QQitemZ110432407510QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item19b648cfd6&_trksid=p4999.c0.m14

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on September 14, 2009, 01:39:53 PM

Quote from: slayer007 on September 14, 2009, 05:28:37 AM

Yes the probes do have some voltage protection.
There only supposed to let 3v get back to the soundcard.

Slayer

I got this from your link

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

# Built-in input protection circuit ensures its output to be less than 3V at all time to pretect the sound card from being damaged by excess input voltage, provided the input voltage is within the allowable range

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

I have not found what they mean by allowable range .
I would love to have a PC based O scope.
I have never had a scope so I am sure that I will be making some mistakes with it .
I am not willing to risk my only computer to those mistakes .

The USB O scopes that use a PC for memory and display look interesting but the input volltages I have seen so far are between 20 and 100 V even the more expensive ones I have checked.

I had thought that any real scope would be able to handle more voltage than all these seem to be made for .

gary

Edit

I just found a line with a 200V input ... but it is $ 720 to $ 1300 the 1 10 probes $ 55
http://www.dataman.com/pc-oscilloscope.aspx

The cheap one . $ 720 is 60 MHz

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: IotaYodi on September 14, 2009, 03:21:20 PM

Just watch those voltages. These are all digital too so the better the AD conversion on the soundcard the better. The bandwidth will be half of the sampling frequency.

Heres a new 25 mhz portable/benchtop digital scope with a usb connection for $300. A little beefier at 300 volts and nicer.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170361338511&_trkparms=tab%3DWatching

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 14, 2009, 09:27:23 PM

Well,
Since we are LOOKING for voltages that are much higher than 350v, it seems pretty risky.
Unless the top figure of 100v turns into 1,000v with a 10x probe.

I have not had any problems hurting my HP10 with the 10x probe. It quite happily reads those hogh voltages. But I am warned against them in the manual... But because the probe changes them to 1/10 of what they really are, I guess, this makes it work all right.

I am not willing to risk it for now.

I will wait.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on September 15, 2009, 05:39:01 PM

Quote from: IotaYodi on September 14, 2009, 03:21:20 PM
Just watch those voltages. These are all digital too so the better the AD conversion on the soundcard the better. The bandwidth will be half of the sampling frequency.

Heres a new 25 mhz portable/benchtop digital scope with a usb connection for $300. A little beefier at 300 volts and nicer.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170361338511&_trkparms=tab%3DWatching

IotaYodi

Thanks for the link
This was my current favorite
http://www.saelig.com/PSPCEL/PS044.htm

I am looking into the one in your link
It is bigger than I had wanted ....... I kind of like the little box and the idea of using the computer for display .
One thing I don't like about the Pico it requires XP or Vista .

I wonder if the USB connection with the scope in your link will work with Linux
I do not like the way that they have listed the max input voltage . 300v peak to peak . still it is better than most others I have looked at .

I am downloading the manual .....

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on September 16, 2009, 04:47:22 AM

:)Hello, its freepow, Can anyone tell me, when making Joule thiefs... is it better to have an oscilliscope or digital multi-meter ???
I am thinking of purchasing a 10Mhz oscilliscope for $148 Aust, as i dont have heaps of money, can I measure DC or AC more acurately on a oscilliscope from a JT ?? or a Multi-meter ??
would a 10mhz oscilliscope help or would it be not worth having??
Any comments would be much appreciated, thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on September 16, 2009, 08:44:35 AM

I would recommend getting a cheap DMM $20-$30 and then an Oscope. I still don't have an Oscope yet but will probably get a handheld like Jeanna has.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on September 16, 2009, 10:26:08 AM

Quote from: freepow on September 16, 2009, 04:47:22 AM
:)Hello, its freepow, Can anyone tell me, when making Joule thiefs... is it better to have an oscilliscope or digital multi-meter ???
I am thinking of purchasing a 10Mhz oscilliscope for $148 Aust, as i dont have heaps of money, can I measure DC or AC more acurately on a oscilliscope from a JT ?? or a Multi-meter ??
would a 10mhz oscilliscope help or would it be not worth having??
Any comments would be much appreciated, thanks

Freepow

JTs are basically a simple oscillator and a coil.
They work mostly by creating a magnetic field in the coil then shutting off
When the magnetic field collapses it creates a back EMF pulse ( flyback )

With a oscilloscope you can see the spikes
You can also get a good idea of the voltages of the spikes as well as the rest of the waveform .
You can also get a good idea of the frequency that the JT is running at .

10 MHz certainly is fast enough for the slower JTs but it might not be fast enough to catch the spikes from a fast JT.

This is the scope that someone suggested to me .
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170361338511&_trkparms=tab%3DWatching
At 25MHz it is fast enough to do most of the things I would want to do.
It is 2 channel so I could look at lets say a JT primary and secondary at the same time It also has the highest input voltage of all but one of the scopes I have looked at .It also has a USB connection so it possible to inport a scope shot to my computer without needing a camera

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 16, 2009, 12:54:08 PM

Quote from: rensseak on July 15, 2009, 11:35:24 AM
digital oscilloscope
Xoscope is a oscilloscope using input from a
sound card or EsounD and/or a ProbeScope/osziFOX and will soon support
Bitscope hardware. Includes 8 signal displays, variable time scale,
math, memory, measurements, and file save/load.

Web site: http://xoscope.sourceforge.net/

This package is already in Ubuntu includet.

Just type "sudo apt-get install xoscope" in a shell

Norbert

@Gary and everybody else.
When Norbert posted this I pm'd him a bit.

I did not have ubuntu on my computer yet, but I do now, and look it is part of my package. I will try it immediately.

It should work on an ordinary MS pc machine too... and it is free. All you need is a probe.

It is a good way to try out the concept.
Just be careful at first. and only use it on the primary, then only use it with a 7 turn secondary, then increase the turns and prove to yourself it is
1- capable and
2 your computer will be safe.

@freepow, you should be able to test the dc on the scope, but I agree with stprue. Just use your dmm for dc and then the scope for looking at the wave and the ac.

The scope will show you the voltage peaks and shape. It will also show you the frequency which is as essential as the voltage.

My scope is a 10Mhz scope (Velleman 10HPS) and it does just fine. I am limited in the earth battery by it because you can only read 1/10 of the sampling with any accuracy which means I can only accurately read 1Mhz.
The Joule thief circuits I have are all under 200Khz so, this scope is fine. I have been troubled by not being able to photograph my scopeshots.
This free one using a computer screen will be easier either through the screenshot method or the photo method.

I hope this helps.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on September 16, 2009, 03:43:22 PM

Quote from: jeanna on September 16, 2009, 12:54:08 PM

I did not have ubuntu on my computer yet, but I do now, and look it is part of my package. I will try it immediately.

Jeanna

Aint Linux great :)

I have not switched to it yet because of my internet card ......but I am working on it .

Here is a thought ................. Almost all newer computers now have the sound card built in . What about adding an old sound card in an expansion slot just for the scope . I think I might have an old sound card or 2 around here somewhere .
If the sound card had its own input chances are if you fried anything .... chances are it would only be the extra sound card.

@ all

What happened to the 4 toroids connected with one winding?
I do not remember seeing anything about it other than the picture
Did I miss it or has there not been anything more posted/

My 90 LED array still has the electronics connected .
It feeds the LEDs in 4 sections .
I thought that the QT ( quad toroid ) setup would be ideal for this array .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 16, 2009, 04:03:08 PM

Hi Gary,

Yeah, I am liking the linux. It works and like here, on the ubuntu forum, there are people to help. More, in fact.
I went to sourceforge and downloaded the xoscope but it did not install itself. I am not very sure how to do it, so I emailed the guy for the manual, which I did not see. So, anybody else who wants to try, we can work it out together.

I was/am also waiting to hear about the quad. I s'pose it wasn't too great, or we'd have heard about it.

You say the spot led array is being fed by 4 separate toroids??

I didn't realize that! I must be mistaken about what you mean.

I am glad to hear the array is still going.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on September 16, 2009, 05:38:27 PM

@all

I did post the result form the quad , no one said anything .

I guess you guys don't read all the post unless your name is at the top of the post ...

I personally read everything ...

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 16, 2009, 05:43:39 PM

So... what was it? how did it work?

I will make a post next door. I just added 2 more lights!!

jeanna
do you mean this?

Quote
@all

I have conducted two test on the quad leaf.

The jt coils are each 4 turns one coil on top of the other , works with out caps 1k resistor .

First , i wound two of the toroid with 20 turns of 22 gauge bell wire.

I have selected two touching toroid , lets say north and east .

Test 1: voltage one 20 turns 50 volts .

Test 2 : check voltage under load , to see if the toroid would behave in the same way.

To do this i have on pickup coil connected to the voltmeter (with bridge) and the other pickup coil located on the second toroid charging a cap , and lighting a led.

Result , and important the led works fine on one pickup coil and the second pickup coil still shows 50 volts .

This is great !

Next step , will be to get a better voltage from tuning of the jt coils.

Also testing a coil web going form one toroid to the other making it a 3d ball , this will need a picture .

Mark

How is it going? Have you continued to test this.
I have been waiting to hear more, myself. This is only a beginning, if it is a good thing to do, that is.
j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on September 17, 2009, 12:37:40 AM

@Freepow,

Quote from: freepow on September 16, 2009, 04:47:22 AM
:)Hello, its freepow, Can anyone tell me, when making Joule thiefs... is it better to have an oscilliscope or digital multi-meter ???
I am thinking of purchasing a 10Mhz oscilliscope for $148 Aust, as i dont have heaps of money, can I measure DC or AC more acurately on a oscilliscope from a JT ?? or a Multi-meter ??
would a 10mhz oscilliscope help or would it be not worth having??
Any comments would be much appreciated, thanks

What the folks are suggesting is right, get yourself a DMM, I see you are an Aussie, head down to your nearest DSE or Jaycar or Altronics electronics shop, and take a look around there.
I have DSE Q1471 DMM which is my best DMM, look at Jaycar for the Digitech range QM1524 which is at a good price.
I also have bought several DMMs from Big W.

As scondhand Scopes are so difficult to get here, I suggest you shell out for that one you asked about previously, if you don't have any scope experience, it will be a good one to learn on.

I took a look at the digital PICO PS2203 scope, the cost for us would be about $491.56 and it was only a 5Mhz scope, better shellout that amount when you are sure you need to upgrade.

The Cathode scopes are going out of fashion now, so get a digital when you are ready, they do have many more features than the older scopes.

@all,
I broke my Internet Explorer, it is still broke lol, I had Firefox, took it off and then found IE could look but not post, so Firefox was reinstalled and I can post again, got a real fright.

SOUNDCARD snippert of info.
There are generally 3 types of input to the computer sound card
Mic (microphone IN) voltage is millivolts, 0.001mv to 0.1v
AUX (Auxullery IN) voltage is up to 1.0 volts input
Line (Line IN) voltage can be from 0.0v to 1.5 - 2.0v

Some sound cards dont have all 3 inputs, some sound cards have many imputs.
Just depends what you want to do with the sound.

Sound is an electrical sig at a variable constant ever changing voltage, so measuring EB or Joule Thief outputs is just a matter of matching the output to the input of the sound card.

Most sound card input will be rated at 600 ohms, a standard unit in the recording industry, you can "isolate" the input by feeding it through a "matching" transformer, ie 600ohm to 600 ohm, or 600ohm to 1200ohm, or switch this one around to 1200ohm to 600ohm.
Depends how you feed it, and with what, if the output might get too high, slap a zenner diode across the output to crowbar it.

Now lets see if this will post ok.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on September 17, 2009, 02:50:03 AM

http://www.disclose.tv/viewvideo/29990/Dr__Steven_Greer_The_Promise_of_New_Energy/

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on September 17, 2009, 03:44:28 PM

Quote from: jeanna on September 16, 2009, 04:03:08 PM
Hi Gary,

Yeah, I am liking the linux. It works and like here, on the ubuntu forum, there are people to help. More, in fact.
I went to sourceforge and downloaded the xoscope but it did not install itself. I am not very sure how to do it, so I emailed the guy for the manual, which I did not see. So, anybody else who wants to try, we can work it out together.

I was/am also waiting to hear about the quad. I s'pose it wasn't too great, or we'd have heard about it.

You say the spot led array is being fed by 4 separate toroids??

I didn't realize that! I must be mistaken about what you mean.

I am glad to hear the array is still going.

jeanna

Jeanna

My 90 LED array is not powered by 4 toroids ......yet.

I looked at the original electronics a little closer .
The LEDs in the array are fed from 4 points
There is a central connection for all the LEDs in the center of the array.

There are 4 caps on the board . 2 chips that I am sure are bridge rectifiers ..... 2 leads one each are marked with a sign wave ......the other 2 are marked + and -
There are also 4 resistors and something else that looks like it could be a larger resistor .........but it is covered with heat shrink tubing.

No toroids at all .

I like the electronics on this array ........it lets me use the array as a genearal purpose load . The LEDs will light very dimly at lower voltages ..... I am not sure if there is over voltage protection ......but I have driven it with 250V

About the quad toroid . I just thought it would be an ideal way to drive an array with 4 inputs . I was thinking that more secondarys might allow me to power the array with less input .

Note ........ the 90 LED array seems to be the old style floodlight .
The basic design has been changing very fast .
I have bought 5 of them over the last year or 2 .
The newer ones have 60 LEDs and are a few bucks cheaper .
The first ones I bought were held together with a little silicone rubber .
Each one I have bought sense then has had some changes .........and has been more durable ...... as in harder to take apart .
The electronics of the newer floodlights do not allow the LEDs to light dimly at low power .....

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on September 17, 2009, 03:44:35 PM

http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/18336/Energy_from_the_Vacuum_Documentary_Series_1_2/

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 17, 2009, 04:03:04 PM

Wow, MK1,
http://www.disclose.tv/viewvideo/29990/Dr__Steven_Greer_The_Promise_of_New_Energy/ (http://www.disclose.tv/viewvideo/29990/Dr__Steven_Greer_The_Promise_of_New_Energy/)
That is a fabulous find!
Thank you so much!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on September 17, 2009, 04:12:45 PM

Quote from: electricme on September 17, 2009, 12:37:40 AM
@Freepow,

What the folks are suggesting is right, get yourself a DMM, I see you are an Aussie, head down to your nearest DSE or Jaycar or Altronics electronics shop, and take a look around there.
I have DSE Q1471 DMM which is my best DMM, look at Jaycar for the Digitech range QM1524 which is at a good price.
I also have bought several DMMs from Big W.

As scondhand Scopes are so difficult to get here, I suggest you shell out for that one you asked about previously, if you don't have any scope experience, it will be a good one to learn on.

I took a look at the digital PICO PS2203 scope, the cost for us would be about $491.56 and it was only a 5Mhz scope, better shellout that amount when you are sure you need to upgrade.

The Cathode scopes are going out of fashion now, so get a digital when you are ready, they do have many more features than the older scopes.

@all,
I broke my Internet Explorer, it is still broke lol, I had Firefox, took it off and then found IE could look but not post, so Firefox was reinstalled and I can post again, got a real fright.

SOUNDCARD snippert of info.
There are generally 3 types of input to the computer sound card
Mic (microphone IN) voltage is millivolts, 0.001mv to 0.1v
AUX (Auxullery IN) voltage is up to 1.0 volts input
Line (Line IN) voltage can be from 0.0v to 1.5 - 2.0v

Some sound cards dont have all 3 inputs, some sound cards have many imputs.
Just depends what you want to do with the sound.

Sound is an electrical sig at a variable constant ever changing voltage, so measuring EB or Joule Thief outputs is just a matter of matching the output to the input of the sound card.

Most sound card input will be rated at 600 ohms, a standard unit in the recording industry, you can "isolate" the input by feeding it through a "matching" transformer, ie 600ohm to 600 ohm, or 600ohm to 1200ohm, or switch this one around to 1200ohm to 600ohm.
Depends how you feed it, and with what, if the output might get too high, slap a zenner diode across the output to crowbar it.

Now lets see if this will post ok.

jim

Jim

If you have a few minutes can you check out this scope for me ?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170361338511&_trkparms=tab%3DWatching

I want something with reasonable input voltage ..........
Reasonable speed ........
2 channels is nice .

For these things it looks like with most scopes I would have to pay close to twice the price to get them all at the same specs

Am I missing something?

gary

Edit

One possible negative of this particular link
When I clicked on Optional battery ........ it downloads the USB manual .

On another site a similar scope with the same numbers but EDU in front of the numbers had an option for the scope with a battery . it was about $100 more .
Kind of expensive for a battery .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 17, 2009, 04:29:07 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on September 17, 2009, 03:44:28 PM
Jeanna

My 90 LED array is not powered by 4 toroids ......yet.

I looked at the original electronics a little closer .
The LEDs in the array are fed from 4 points
There is a central connection for all the LEDs in the center of the array.

gary

I wonder if the 4 groups are in parallel. I mean 4 sets of 22 leds each in parallel.
If this is what they are using, and from watching the behavior of some of mine, I think this is likely, you can very easily and right now make a 90 led array which is only using a very little voltage. My general electric yard lights use a chip and not a toroid too. A timer chip is all you need for 1-4 lights. If 4 lights is replaced by 4 sets of 22 lights each set in parallel, it is easily explained.

Is your light made for 3 volts or more? I know you described it before, but I forget that part.

@All,
I am wondering which way is easier or more productive... 4 toroids or a large toroid with 4 sets of windings.

I am showing how to get around the problem of multiple sets turning each other out, so, it is easy to imagine that it can light a house.

Stubblefield showed that it can be done with a hunk of iron, but the material and shape of the toroid are so much more powerful, I keep on using them.
I did use a (non-galvanic) Stubblefield coil as a joule thief and it worked splendidly, so it is not necessary to use an actual store bought toroid.

I am now beginning to think that there must be very complex waves and powerful inductance (=energy) when you make a bifilar spiral of iron around an iron core. It may be the essential part of the stubblefield coil and not the galvanic part. In fact, it may be just fine to leave the galvanic part out??

Sometimes this kind of thing keeps me awake at night! And kind of belongs on the bifilar specs page too!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on September 17, 2009, 04:34:03 PM

Those Disclosure Project links apparently cannot be accessed from this server MK.

I also missed your quad...for some reason I find I have to disable the 'notify' feature and then enable it again, and by the time I notice that the notification for 1 or 2 threads have stopped and I am way behind.

Thats ground I simply can't cover due to time issues these days, and I'm sure its the dame for others if their notifications also stop.

To quote a famous dead guy:

"Nothing to get hung about"

I've got another page range noted for later, I can locate your quad the same way when I'm ready to take a stab at it.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on September 17, 2009, 04:46:31 PM

@Cap-Z-ro

You seem to have problems with disclose.tv .

I am not sure there is anything i can do , it looks to be working for others ?

Disclose is a great site not yet bias or censored.

Keep the good work , you make Canadian proud !

Mark from qc

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on September 17, 2009, 05:47:36 PM

I do hope my isp is not selectively blocking sites...requires some inquires on my part it wood seem.

Thanks for your supportive words Mark.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on September 17, 2009, 06:19:42 PM

Quote from: jeanna on September 17, 2009, 04:29:07 PM
I wonder if the 4 groups are in parallel. I mean 4 sets of 22 leds each in parallel.
If this is what they are using, and from watching the behavior of some of mine, I think this is likely, you can very easily and right now make a 90 led array which is only using a very little voltage. My general electric yard lights use a chip and not a toroid too. A timer chip is all you need for 1-4 lights. If 4 lights is replaced by 4 sets of 22 lights each set in parallel, it is easily explained.

Is your light made for 3 volts or more? I know you described it before, but I forget that part.

Jeanna

The 4 sets of LEDs all have one common connection in the center of the array ......so they have to be in parallel

I do not know the original operating voltage .
I should have checked it but I did not .
The original voltage for the 60 LED array is 84 V it is divided into 2 sections with one connection in common.

Quote

Stubblefield showed that it can be done with a hunk of iron, but the material and shape of the toroid are so much more powerful, I keep on using them.
I did use a (non-galvanic) Stubblefield coil as a joule thief and it worked splendidly, so it is not necessary to use an actual store bought toroid.

I am now beginning to think that there must be very complex waves and powerful inductance (=energy) when you make a bifilar spiral of iron around an iron core. It may be the essential part of the stubblefield coil and not the galvanic part. In fact, it may be just fine to leave the galvanic part out??

Sometimes this kind of thing keeps me awake at night! And kind of belongs on the bifilar specs page too!

jeanna

Jeanna

I have found that a JT can be made with almost anything .....or even no core at all.

I do agree that the Stubbfield configuration might have some special properties that might help it work as a JT .

As far as I can see .....the only reason to use the galvanic side of the Stubblfield coil is to demonstrate OU ,. .... it can be self powering .

In my opinion the galvanic effect should not be used in a long term OU application . The galvanic effect will slowly consume the iron in the unit making it unstable in the long run .

I do not remember reading about your Stubblfield JT did you use the iron winding for one of the JT primarys ?

I did not save a " normal " stubblefield coil
I did try my bifilar pancake coil as JTs
They did work .......but I could not get much interaction between pancakes .
I had hoped that I could use one as primarys and another as pickup .

The more I think about a Stubbfield battery as a JT the more I like it

:)

In real life it would be much like my LM coils ........except you can build the core into the unit anywhere you want to put the iron and copper bifilar windings.

Was it Gadget that said there was more power with the core on the outside?

With a heavy iron core in the center ...... then the secondary and a bifilar primary on the outside .....the flux just might jump back and forth between the main iron core and the outer core made of the iron wire .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 17, 2009, 07:40:10 PM

Gary,
I found it. I did this back in june.
The first pic shows the led in the basic spot lighting (I think basic)
The next is a scopeshot off the secondary.
You can see a ring on the scope shot the peaks are both made up of rings.

My notes say (I assume off the secondary cuz I only ever do that)
3.63v with the bjtl
10.73v no light

then I removed the core.(I had made these non galvanic types on a bolt which was inside a straw, so I could remove the core.)
4.5v -- no core
Then since the wire in the pic makes this a step down I tried something YOU told me about and I stuck a spool of red mag wire around the bottom... just to the other coiled secondary. The volts were
35.9v -- no core.

I think this is pretty cool.

I didn't put in my notes how I connected the wires. I assume the end of one to the beginning of the other like a normal jt.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on September 17, 2009, 08:41:13 PM

@ Gary

Quote from: resonanceman on September 17, 2009, 04:12:45 PM
Jim

If you have a few minutes can you check out this scope for me ?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170361338511&_trkparms=tab%3DWatching

I want something with reasonable input voltage ..........
Reasonable speed ........
2 channels is nice .

For these things it looks like with most scopes I would have to pay close to twice the price to get them all at the same specs

Am I missing something?

gary

Edit

One possible negative of this particular link
When I clicked on Optional battery ........ it downloads the USB manual .

On another site a similar scope with the same numbers but EDU in front of the numbers had an option for the scope with a battery . it was about $100 more .
Kind of expensive for a battery .

Hello Gary, I took a look at this web site link you provided, it seems to have what you are looking for, and should be suitable.

The battery link does point to the pdf on the scope, but there is no reference to the battery as you pointed out.

Seems you could use this on a USB main PC and could use it on an older laptop, the screen resolution (pixels) 640 x ? is a bit on the largerish side but would display the waveform OK.

I like the idea it can be battery powered, as you could take it to the work in the garden, unlike me, I just ran some extension leads to my scope.
One thing lacking was a utility to "null out" 50Hz or 60Hz, but mabe scopes dont have this, but sound jockies can get these things to stop mains hum from being a problem. Hmm now you got me thinking.....

I like the idea of being able to record the data in a databank, and being able to display it on the PC screen, top idea that.

Give these people a email and ask them to answer any questions you may still have, perhapse they could "software" some solutions also.

Anyway Gary, the final decision is yours, and price can be the key in many instrument purchases.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on September 17, 2009, 08:41:53 PM

Quote from: jeanna on September 17, 2009, 07:40:10 PM
Gary,
I found it. I did this back in june.
The first pic shows the led in the basic spot lighting (I think basic)
The next is a scopeshot off the secondary.
You can see a ring on the scope shot the peaks are both made up of rings.

My notes say (I assume off the secondary cuz I only ever do that)
3.63v with the bjtl
10.73v no light

then I removed the core.(I had made these non galvanic types on a bolt which was inside a straw, so I could remove the core.)
4.5v -- no core
Then since the wire in the pic makes this a step down I tried something YOU told me about and I stuck a spool of red mag wire around the bottom... just to the other coiled secondary. The volts were
35.9v -- no core.

I think this is pretty cool.

I didn't put in my notes how I connected the wires. I assume the end of one to the beginning of the other like a normal jt.

jeanna

Jeanna

Thanks for looking that up .

I am sure that I would have remembered that post if I had read it before.

after reading it and looking at the picture .....my thoughts were . I wonder how many coils like the red one you tried would work before the JT was choked by the load. ...... physicly it looks like there is room for at least 4 ......if you remove your original secondry

I have spent the last hour replacing a 3055 in my test board.
I added a connector block for the ends of the wires going to the transistor .......so next time I will be able to change it faster .

Now ......I can look into adding a bifilar primary on one of my LMs

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on September 17, 2009, 08:57:24 PM

Quote from: electricme on September 17, 2009, 08:41:13 PM
@ Gary
Hello Gary, I took a look at this web site link you provided, it seems to have what you are looking for, and should be suitable.

The battery link does point to the pdf on the scope, but there is no reference to the battery as you pointed out.

Seems you could use this on a USB main PC and could use it on an older laptop, the screen resolution (pixels) 640 x ? is a bit on the largerish side but would display the waveform OK.

I like the idea it can be battery powered, as you could take it to the work in the garden, unlike me, I just ran some extension leads to my scope.
One thing lacking was a utility to "null out" 50Hz or 60Hz, but mabe scopes dont have this, but sound jockies can get these things to stop mains hum from being a problem. Hmm now you got me thinking.....

I like the idea of being able to record the data in a databank, and being able to display it on the PC screen, top idea that.

Give these people a email and ask them to answer any questions you may still have, perhapse they could "software" some solutions also.

Anyway Gary, the final decision is yours, and price can be the key in many instrument purchases.

jim

Jim

Thanks for taking the time to look at that scope.

It is really nice to get the opinion of someone that knows about these kinds of things .

I am still kind of guessing at what I need.

I guess a question I should have asked in my previous post is am I on the right track with my prioritys for the scope?

I remember Jeanna saying her scope is fast enough for her JTs
I do think that faster is better though.

I like the idea of being able to use it with a battery too ......but I do not like their choice of battery . L ion If I remember right .......those kinds of batterys are worthless in 4 years no matter what you do with them . Even sitting on a shelf they die .

Thanks again for the help
I still have some reasearch to do ........but maybe in a month or so I will have a scope

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 17, 2009, 09:52:09 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on September 17, 2009, 08:41:53 PM
.....my thoughts were . I wonder how many coils like the red one you tried would work before the JT was choked by the load. ...... physicly it looks like there is room for at least 4 ......if you remove your original secondry

I think there is only room for 2... possibly 3.

Choked by the load of an empty spool?

I also think I did this before I fixed up a whole spool.
It may have been the inspiration for the whole spool, though.
I didn't write anything about it in my notes, and that is the reason I think it is the partial one I just picked up and tried.
This means there would be a LOT more volts from a full one.
I think a lot more before it is choked.

I do not have a figure for the red secondary with a core.
I am sure it is more.

Quote

I have spent the last hour replacing a 3055 in my test board.

I am glad to know I am not the only person who has to fiddle with those.

On the subject of the 3055... I am wondering if it is the quantity of silicon that makes the difference between it and the little switching transistors.
They both switch fast, but with the 3055 I can expect 100 volts more than the 3904.
The only thing that can make that happen in this flyback world is speed and sharpness of speed of switching.
The little lightweight 3904 may switch more but perhaps it doesn't switch as sharply, and I wonder if that is because it lacks enough + and o's to make a clean break.

Just a thought.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on September 17, 2009, 11:46:42 PM

Quote from: jeanna on September 17, 2009, 09:52:09 PM
I think there is only room for 2... possibly 3.

Choked by the load of an empty spool?

I also think I did this before I fixed up a whole spool.
It may have been the inspiration for the whole spool, though.
I didn't write anything about it in my notes, and that is the reason I think it is the partial one I just picked up and tried.
This means there would be a LOT more volts from a full one.
I think a lot more before it is choked.

Jeanna

I guess I didn't explain it very well .

Here is what I was thinking of .

Quote

Then since the wire in the pic makes this a step down I tried something YOU told me about and I stuck a spool of red mag wire around the bottom... just to the other coiled secondary. The volts were
35.9v -- no core.

if you got 35 V with one spool of wire ..... if you took off your original secondary and placed 3 or 4 spools of wire on the coil just like the first red one ...... you might have pretty good output .

Quote

On the subject of the 3055... I am wondering if it is the quantity of silicon that makes the difference between it and the little switching transistors.
They both switch fast, but with the 3055 I can expect 100 volts more than the 3904.
The only thing that can make that happen in this flyback world is speed and sharpness of speed of switching.
The little lightweight 3904 may switch more but perhaps it doesn't switch as sharply, and I wonder if that is because it lacks enough + and o's to make a clean break.

Just a thought.

jeanna

The way I see it .

If you have 2 doors that open at the same speed .........but one of them is 10 times bigger than the other ..... you can move what every you want to move through the large door sooner than you can get it though the smaller door .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on September 18, 2009, 01:02:43 AM

First tests of a bifilar primary added to a LM are not the most promising

I added 400 inches of #24 floral wire coated with shellac just to make sure it was insulated . and 200 inches of #22 mag wire

I wound the 2 wires together around the LM .
When I got to the end of the mag wire I just kept the end separate .
I kept winding the iron wire giving me more core outside the other JT primary .

I have not tried to tune it yet . I just guessed at a length of wire to start with .
It would not light a LED in the original JT position with 1 AA but it lit with 2 AAs

This might be a good thing to check out with higher voltages .
Also ......I am thinking if a JY core needs to reach saturation ...... it may be possible to tune the power level by changing the number of iron wraps .

I kept the copper wire shorter and connected it to the base because I have noticed that lower resistance in the winding going to the base seems to help .

Adding a core in the center didn;t seem to change anything .

The LM that I used is what I call a splitter .
It has 2 coils of the #22 Radio shack wire wound on one spool.
The idea was to use that kind of coil to split the signal ......and send half back to the battery
I tried several things with it ...feedback didn;t help the voltage .
then I tried a small cap it has 221 printed on it .
Would that be nF ?
When the 221 cap is connected across the SECOND coil in the LM the first coil voltage jumped 3 V but my LED array roughly doubled in brightness and the JT LED got to bright to look at .

This is clearly resonance it is a very narrow band

Strange
I am using a 10mm LED in the JT position it is very bright .
I was thinking it was using alot of power.
I disconnected it and the whole circuit crashed
The output voltage dropped from 37 V to less than 1 V
I could not get it to put out any power without the JT LED in place.

I hope to try a few more things tomorrow.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 18, 2009, 01:16:30 AM

Quote from: resonanceman on September 17, 2009, 11:46:42 PM
if you took off your original secondary and placed 3 or 4 spools of wire on the coil just like the first red one ...... you might have pretty good output .

I agree. I have used the full spool and it is rather good. But my hand wound toroids are as good.
I would need to buy another 3 pack to add more. I probably will.

QuoteIf you have 2 doors that open at the same speed .........but one of them is 10 times bigger than the other .....
you can move what every you want to move through the large door sooner than you can get it though the smaller door .

I like that bigger door metaphor.

Here is the thing for me.
I am starting with volts and pulses and making more volts with pulses.
It is very clear to me that raising this voltage to a much higher amount would take much fiddling, but that is basically all.
...to start with a pulse and to increase the flyback to usable amounts.

I am letting others devise the battery charging set ups, as you know.
I saw in the second video linked by MK1 today that bedini thinks that putting it into a battery is the only way.
I like how he said that the chemistry of a battery changes when treated to this kind of voltage, but I do not think it stops with a battery.
I have nothing against a battery especially after what I heard from bedini, but I think there will be a way to make usable ac (pulsed dc) from magnetic pulses.
I believe there is a way to increase the output from a given input of pulses.

But I will not be making the whole unit.
We are all sharing our ideas and we are all making a combined creation.

I want everybody to follow their own interests, because as we do that these elements will all pull together to make a terrific whole invention.

(I am living the future I desire.)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on September 18, 2009, 03:24:53 AM

Hello, does an 10 MHZ oscilliscope tell you on the screen... things like AC-voltage or DC-voltage from Joule thiefs ?
or such as frequency etc. ???
Or does it just have lines on the screen???

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: IotaYodi on September 18, 2009, 09:55:02 AM

@resonanceman

The battery for this scope is $60. You can buy it later if wanted.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170361338511&_trkparms=tab%3DWatching

There are cross platform scope software.
If push comes to shove you can always do a dual Os boot system if you have a windows Os also.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: IotaYodi on September 18, 2009, 10:32:38 AM

QuoteOne thing lacking was a utility to "null out" 50Hz or 60Hz, but mabe scopes dont have this, but sound jockies can get these things to stop mains hum from being a problem. Hmm now you got me thinking.....

The shorter the probe cables the better. A dedicated circuit for the scope is the best way to go as long as the ground wire is on a separate ground bar instead of being hooked to the common neutral bar. A neutral wire is a hot wire and you can pick up transient spikes off the neutral bar from any other loads like refrigerators,mixers or anything with a motor.
Cheap soundcards for audio is a different story. I have a dedicated outlet for recording Audio using star grounding. I still picked up hum from the Computers soundcard. I used a hum eliminator to get rid of it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 18, 2009, 12:27:22 PM

Quote from: freepow on September 18, 2009, 03:24:53 AM
Hello, does an 10 MHZ oscilliscope tell you on the screen... things like AC-voltage or DC-voltage from Joule thiefs ?
or such as frequency etc. ???
Or does it just have lines on the screen???

Mine which is a velleman scope called HPS10 gives you the choice of which items to display. You can display ac and dc if you want it to.

What you will see on the scope is a moving drawing of the pulses over time. In most cases the moving part of the drawing is too fast to see it drawn out and you see a bunch of spikes jumping or rolling, but that has to do with the speed of drawing and your eyes among other things.

You can display the lines if you want them or not. Even if you do not display them there is a time/div read-out which is your essential read out and it will be shown based on those lines.

For instance you might have 4v/div. So where ever the line dividers are, they are 4v apart. But I never show them because there is a digital read-out that tells me the ac peak to peak voltage which is what I use.

I use peak to peak because I am interested in the peaks and I can see if they are spiky or smooth.

We are using spiky and the thinner the spikes the better for our purposes.

You find the frequency by putting markers on the wave at the same place+1 of the wave. This will tell you in Hz (cycles per second) or length of second between the markers. It is written right on the screen.

I hope that answers some of your questions. It took me a while and a lot of help too.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on September 18, 2009, 01:53:37 PM

Quote from: IotaYodi on September 18, 2009, 09:55:02 AM
@resonanceman

The battery for this scope is $60. You can buy it later if wanted.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170361338511&_trkparms=tab%3DWatching

There are cross platform scope software.
If push comes to shove you can always do a dual Os boot system if you have a windows Os also.

IotaYodi

I plan on switching to Linux in the near future .
I don't want a scope that will prevent me from switching .

I am not sure how well this works ........but it here and the Linux community is good at fine tuning these kinds of things .
http://sourceforge.net/project/shownotes.php?release_id=693127

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on September 18, 2009, 03:15:48 PM

Quote from: jeanna on September 18, 2009, 01:16:30 AM
I agree. I have used the full spool and it is rather good. But my hand wound toroids are as good.
I would need to buy another 3 pack to add more. I probably will.

Jeanna

I agree using spools of wire does not do a better job than a toroid .
What I was trying to find was a simple easy way to make a JT

Quote

I like that bigger door metaphor.

Here is the thing for me.
I am starting with volts and pulses and making more volts with pulses.
It is very clear to me that raising this voltage to a much higher amount would take much fiddling, but that is basically all.
...to start with a pulse and to increase the flyback to usable amounts.

I am letting others devise the battery charging set ups, as you know.
I saw in the second video linked by MK1 today that bedini thinks that putting it into a battery is the only way.
I like how he said that the chemistry of a battery changes when treated to this kind of voltage, but I do not think it stops with a battery.
I have nothing against a battery especially after what I heard from bedini, but I think there will be a way to make usable ac (pulsed dc) from magnetic pulses.
I believe there is a way to increase the output from a given input of pulses.

But I will not be making the whole unit.
We are all sharing our ideas and we are all making a combined creation.

I want everybody to follow their own interests, because as we do that these elements will all pull together to make a terrific whole invention.

(I am living the future I desire.)

jeanna

Yes it is possible to take a pulse and add to it with flyback
I can light my 90 LED array and have the battery voltage and voltage across the LED array slowly rising . It usually takes between 7 and 9 inductors of different of several different kinds to get to this point . Feedback to the battery is also required .
I have been working at getting to the self charging state with less inductors ......limited sucess so far .
Resonance is also a problem ......it is pretty easy to get it to self charge at resonance ........but you will loose resonance when the voltage changes .......so adjustments to bring it back into resonance have to be made every few hours .

I am thinking about setting the resonant point below the normal operating voltage ...... so output of the circuit would go up when the battery got low enough to reach resonance .

I remember Bedini said that a battery can't charge and discharge at the same time .
He always uses 2 batterys because of this .

I do not think it needs to be a problem
You often put a cap across the battery .
If that cap is large enough it will act like a second battery .
It will absorb the pulses and present near steady current flow to the battery ... either charging or discharging .

Like you I think that each person following their own path is a great advantage .
As you probably know ..... my focus is on making JTs from stuff other than purchased toroids . and also using inductors for creating flyback pulses and feedback to the battery

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: IotaYodi on September 18, 2009, 03:25:36 PM

If you already have windows you may want to do a dual boot system. You can partition the existing drive or install a small secondary drive if you have a desktop. This would cover all your bases and give you the choice of what software is more appealing or available. Plus if theres any data on the win machine you need you wont have to hassle trying to migrate it to Linux.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on September 18, 2009, 03:43:23 PM

Quote from: IotaYodi on September 18, 2009, 03:25:36 PM
If you already have windows you may want to do a dual boot system. You can partition the existing drive or install a small secondary drive if you have a desktop. This would cover all your bases and give you the choice of what software is more appealing or available. Plus if theres any data on the win machine you need you wont have to hassle trying to migrate it to Linux.

IotaYodi

Yes .......I have had a duel boot system for a few years now .
I do not boot up Linux very much because my only internet provided for the last few years is through a internet card that is not supported by linux ......and probably will never be supported because it has been replaced by a USB device.
I will upgrade eventually ........but it will cost me double what I am now paying for internet

I do not remember the file systems that are compatable with both windows and linux .....but I do remember if you use the wrong one you can't get to the files on the other system .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 18, 2009, 04:25:31 PM

QuoteI am not sure how well this works ........but it here and the Linux community is good at fine tuning these kinds of things .
http://sourceforge.net/project/shownotes.php?release_id=693127

It is even on the newest version of ubuntu.
I downloaded it first then found somebody referring to it then found synaptic (on board installation app.) would just get it and bring it in plus all the necessaries and install it... and it did.

Quote from: resonanceman on September 18, 2009, 03:15:48 PM
Jeanna

I agree using spools of wire does not do a better job than a toroid .
What I was trying to find was a simple easy way to make a JT

Yes, I remember

I just got back from radio shack.
I decided to buy a set of spools. They are packaged in narrow spools now, so maybe I can fit more than 2 on my stubcoil.

QuoteYes it is possible to take a pulse and add to it with flyback

Right.
I kind of flubbed my explanation yesterday.
I am using the flyback pulses from the jt toroid and not changing the pulses at all at that point of origin.
With the pulses defined and being generated, I am now adding to them with inductors.
I am pretty sure there is no additional flyback, because the new/additional inductors are not part of the switching mechanism.

But maybe your comment is what I need.
Maybe this is the reason toroidal inductors seem to be so good in this application.
Maybe they ARE doing a kind of flyback...
...

QuoteLike you I think that each person following their own path is a great advantage .
As you probably know ..... my focus is on making JTs from stuff other than purchased toroids . and also using inductors for creating flyback pulses and feedback to the battery
gary

I am glad you restated it. I think it is helpful for us to realize what each of us is up to... and maybe when we add to our focus or change it a little, too.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: rensseak on September 18, 2009, 04:37:10 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on September 18, 2009, 03:43:23 PM
IotaYodi

I do not remember the file systems that are compatable with both windows and linux .....but I do remember if you use the wrong one you can't get to the files on the other system .

gary

if you use Windows and want access to your linux ext2/3 filesystem than use this here:

http://ext2fsd.sourceforge.net/projects/projects.htm

http://www.google.de/#hl=de&source=hp&q=Ext2fsd&btnG=Google-Suche&meta=&aq=f&oq=Ext2fsd&fp=64ae5300522d1bb2

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on September 18, 2009, 05:37:42 PM

Quote from: jeanna on September 18, 2009, 04:25:31 PM
It is even on the newest version of ubuntu.
I downloaded it first then found somebody referring to it then found synaptic (on board installation app.) would just get it and bring it in plus all the necessaries and install it... and it did.
Yes, I remember

I just got back from radio shack.
I decided to buy a set of spools. They are packaged in narrow spools now, so maybe I can fit more than 2 on my stubcoil.

If it is the same amount of wire on narrow spools with the same size center .....that is great .......except for situations like my splitters where I put 2 spools of wire together on one spool .

Quote
Right.
I kind of flubbed my explanation yesterday.
I am using the flyback pulses from the jt toroid and not changing the pulses at all at that point of origin.
With the pulses defined and being generated, I am now adding to them with inductors.
I am pretty sure there is no additional flyback, because the new/additional inductors are not part of the switching mechanism.

But maybe your comment is what I need.
Maybe this is the reason toroidal inductors seem to be so good in this application.
Maybe they ARE doing a kind of flyback...

...

I am glad you restated it. I think it is helpful for us to realize what each of us is up to... and maybe when we add to our focus or change it a little, too.

jeanna

Jeanna

I would say that anytime a magnetic field collapses it creates a flyback pulse ...... Others can correct me if I am wrong .
I think there are times when the pulses are not noticeable .But they are still there.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 18, 2009, 06:04:15 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on September 18, 2009, 05:37:42 PM
If it is the same amount of wire on narrow spools with the same size center .....that is great .......

Yes, I thought so. It is convenient. I can also try slayer's(or was that lidmotor's?) trick to have 2 different gauge spools making one bifilar with a differential in it.

QuoteI would say that anytime a magnetic field collapses it creates a flyback pulse ......

I have been think about this since I replied.
I am using these in series and the pulses should be adding further flyback. Now, it makes some more sense to me.

I guess what is fixed by the primary toroid is the frequency, then all the rest are more spikes added to the others which are enhanced by the new flyback to give higher pulses.

Oh this is great, Gary. I do not know how I missed that, but you are right.
It also explains why I had good results without adding the cap for a tank.

I finally got the right range of cap, yesterday, so now I am up to 24 lights in series. I was not sure the lights were as bright, and the voltage was up even higher with the additional lights, (so I did some errands to mull it over).

So, this is how I can have more and more voltage and more lights. I knew It was what I had to do, but not getting why.
The other thing is the toroid seems a much better core for what I am doing than a straight core.

Thanks Gary,

jeanna

mmm I might have to change those thoughts too. I just found new frequency and new voltage everywhere. I like toroids. They are so full of surprises! :D
j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 18, 2009, 09:35:33 PM

Jeanna:

Lidmotor's idea was to have 2 wires all wrapped bifilar but, using all of the wire available in the RS spools. As you know, those spools come with x amount of 22 gauge and x+ many more feet of 26 gauge wire. So, he came up with the idea of using all of the wire on both of those spools. What you end up with is his "transformer" coil. It displays some interesting characteristics due to the many, many more feet of the smaller ga. wire on the same coil. (You run out of the thicker wire and just keep winding with the thinner wire until gone.)

I have wound 3 of these and all of them perform very well in my Bedini applications.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 18, 2009, 10:16:40 PM

That's the one!

So, do you use it centertapped like the joule thief?

I was looking at the bedini page from somewhere out there and it sounded simple but there are too many parts to make, you know, like making a motor.

Anyway, Bedini has an iron stuffed spool of wire that he calls trifilar, but my guess is that it is bifilar the way we define it. Is that right? (there are 4 of them or more...)

So, as the magnet on the edge of the motor goes close to the coil, the iron responds, then the coil responds then it spikes when it reverses. I am not sure, but I think he said when it reverses, the reverse magnetic direction pushes the magnet on the wheel along. It looks really brilliant to me.

I am wondering about the trifilar question first.
then I will take myself to a bedini thread just to see it.

I bet you could run the motor doing work as he shows, and instead of storing the spikes, you could use them live... plug it in so to speak.

hmmm

I guess lidmotor's ideas are on the energetic forum. I already forgot my password once, maybe I stored it so I can use this new ubu computer there too! ;)

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dllabarre on September 19, 2009, 12:05:23 AM

@Jeanna and All

Bifilar is 2 pieces of wire wound on the same coil form be it toroid, straight or air core.

Trifilar is 3 pieces of wire wound on the same coil form be it toroid, straight or air core.

Each wire can be a different awg and/or a different length or all the same.

This is the standard definition.

I think the people on JT has a different definition which is confusing to new people reading this thread.

Hope this helps,
DonL

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 19, 2009, 01:06:49 AM

I believe most folks here know that bi=2 and tri=3.

One can make a Bedini motor with a trifilar coil if they want, many have done it but, I didn't see the need for it.

@ Jeanna:

If I can find the link quick, I will post it here. This guy gives a great and simple explanation of the Bedini system. It is really very simple. The coil, unlike the way we are using them here, is actually 2 different coils in one. One acts like an electromagnet to make the motor turn and the other is a trigger coil that uses the back emf for charging and, also turns the transistor on and off at the correct time. This is why my motor can turn at such high rpm's and Jonnydavro's single magnet motor can turn over 18,000 rpm's using the same circuit. All of my motors charge more on the battery than they take to run. It is incredible. I think Gadget has one that is still running after 6 months.

Actually, right now on my single magnet, no bearing Bedini, I am not even using a core at all. Just Lidmotor's transformer coil and the rest of the Bedini circuit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJySgeSpJpQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJySgeSpJpQ)

The above link is to part one but, check out his other vids as he has some great schematics and animations describing what is happening way better than I ever could.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on September 19, 2009, 01:57:53 AM

@pirate

I have a feeling the rs wire are the same weight ....

Same materiel same mass same resonant freq ....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 19, 2009, 02:44:04 AM

MK1:

So, you are saying that you have a wire diameter of X and another of Y and they are two different lengths but, there is enough of the longer thinner wire to equal the shorter thicker wire in mass? If this is what you are saying then, I probably have to agree with you. Knowing RS and their suppliers (China) it is probably done by weight/mass. Very good point.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on September 19, 2009, 03:01:26 AM

@pirate

You got it !

Now if you ask me why this is important , i believe it is the best way to transfer the full amount of power between the coils.

@all

Energy from the vacuum Full movie...

http://disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/18241/Tom_Bearden_Vacuum_Energy_1_2/

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 19, 2009, 03:33:39 AM

MK1:

Well, what you are saying makes very good sense then. In most, if not all, of the Bedini instructions, it says to take X amount of feet of two different wire sizes and wind a bifilar coil. Lidmotor had a different idea and, after watching his Youtube videos, I copied his way. I am not even sure that he has made this connection about the mass being equal. I will have to ask him. All I know is that his style coils are very efficient and this could easily explain why. I was able to run my first Bedini motor from a single AA battery. (As did Lidmotor) I don't think this would be possible using the other method.

I am very glad you mentioned this as it will make very good sense while winding our JT bifilar coils.

Thanks,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 19, 2009, 02:31:37 PM

Bill and Mark,

I first heard that the only way to achieve frequency of resonance was from Bill Beaty who said you can do it easily by matching the mass.
I believe he referenced the master (Tesla).

I have often wondered why that spec is so often overlooked.
It never occurred to me that others did not know it.

Thanks for bringing it up.

@DonL,
Thanks for trying to clear that up.
My question about trifilar is how they connect.
Is Bedini making a centertapped bifilar wound pulse creating coil and adding a secondary (third wire) to it?
If that is the case, why does he do it on each spool?
The way he described it, I thought they were all connected to each other electrically.

I will be adding a transformer to one part of my circuit today. I tried that a while ago and ran into the still unsolved issue of the second group putting out the first. Now that this is solved, I have to remember to revisit the question.

But first, I will see what lidmotor has to say.

Thank you everybody,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on September 19, 2009, 02:48:30 PM

Quote from: jeanna on September 18, 2009, 06:04:15 PM

I have been think about this since I replied.
I am using these in series and the pulses should be adding further flyback. Now, it makes some more sense to me.

I guess what is fixed by the primary toroid is the frequency, then all the rest are more spikes added to the others which are enhanced by the new flyback to give higher pulses.

Jeanna

This is close to what I have found .......but it seems to be a little more complex.

I believe resistance plays as much of a role with flyback as it does with resonance .
Although any collapsing magnetic field creates flyback ......because of resistance the spikes tend to get shorter and wider.
At least that is how I see it .
Verifying this is one of the reasons that I have decided I need a scope .

Quote

Oh this is great, Gary. I do not know how I missed that, but you are right.
It also explains why I had good results without adding the cap for a tank.

I finally got the right range of cap, yesterday, so now I am up to 24 lights in series. I was not sure the lights were as bright, and the voltage was up even higher with the additional lights, (so I did some errands to mull it over).

So, this is how I can have more and more voltage and more lights. I knew It was what I had to do, but not getting why.

If I understand what you are saying here .......I think you are talking about resonance not flyback .

Adding a cap parallel with the base resistor gives you an RC resonant circuit

I am not sure if resonance is the way to make practical JT applications .
The resonance is in a narrow band .......the JT eaisly drifts out of this band .
If you are using resonance to gain more power in your secondary circuit if you have a pot for a base resistor you should find that the highest voltage from your secondary is in a narrow band .....
It might be interesting for you to check the waveform of your secondary with your scope ......both with and without your new caps

If we can get past the problem of drifting out of resonance ....the idea way to use a toroid to make power would be to first feed the output to a coil or 2 ......to create flyback ...the pulse will be smoothed out some by the process .
The proper RC resonant circuit would then raise the voltage and sharpen the spikes .......allowing for another round of inductors for flyback

This can't be done if the frequency is allowed to drift ....... the RC circuits are fixed frequency ........ any variation from the frequency and you have no more resonance .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on September 19, 2009, 02:52:47 PM

My last post got me thinking a little .

Can someone with a scope and a JT that has a tank verify one of the basic concepts behind my last post .

That as the voltage changes in the JT primary .......the frequency it runs at shifts .

Thanks

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 19, 2009, 04:04:01 PM

Bill,
Thanks, that guy is great. I will buy the necessary wire next week and begin soon.

Gary,
I see your post in the reply screen. I might be able.
edit
in fact the input voltage changes the frequency. period. When one of those 2 components goes up, the other goes down, I see it all the time.
end edit

Where do you want me to check the frequency of the primary?

jeanna

edit, to save post space, I read your thought about resonance.

I have seen resonance in the form of a clear ring just coming from the inductor and NO cap many times.
In fact on one of the secondaries, (S1) there is a ring on one spot but no ring on another arm (S2) of the circuit.

I am not going to bother to find the tesla quote where he says it is related to mass.
But..just think of it this way... the mass of the wire will naturally have a big effect on the resistance and that should stabilize it some.

Since a narrow bandwith makes a more spiky shape and the spikier the better, I think you are right that it is very picky to keep a particular resonance going when it is input voltage based.

just some more thoughts.
j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on September 19, 2009, 05:14:07 PM

Quote from: jeanna on September 19, 2009, 04:04:01 PM

in fact the input voltage changes the frequency. period. When one of those 2 components goes up, the other goes down, I see it all the time.
end edit

Where do you want me to check the frequency of the primary?

Jeanna

I don't think that it matters where it is checked .
Each pulse will travel the entire circuit ..... I see no reason the frequency should change at one part of the JT but not at another .

If you have observed with your scope the frequency changing because of voltage changes ..... then you have already verified my observations.

thanks

[/quote]

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 19, 2009, 07:48:38 PM

OK, Gary, I do not need to repeat this test for you.

I found that when I did anything that raised the voltage the frequency would drop.
And the reverse, whenever I did something that increased the frequency the voltage dropped.

So, I first told the world when I was tuning the base resistor, when I increased the base resistor value the frequency in the pickup increased, and the voltage dropped.
Then I wound more turns on the toroid to increase the voltage, and it did. And, as the voltage increased, the frequency decreased.

Stick a magnet on a toroid.
The frequency jumps up and the voltage drops.
Sometimes I see some people notice this as an anomaly, but it isn't. It is a rule.

I checked this out a lot of times and ways.
There have been a couple of exceptions, but they were small and may have to do with resolution of the scope more than something else.

In the 2 tier circuit, it continues to happen, but in a complicated way.
Those secondaries are no longer working on a 'simple' single toroid. but the effect is almost 100% the same.

When I was watching professor Lewin teaching about or around this subject, I saw an equation a differential equation that addresses this. It was not the same circuit as ours, but there was the same reciprocal relationship of voltage to frequency.

Hmm, I just lost half this post...
One more thing.
One day I doubled the battery voltage going into th system. The frequency jumped up but the output voltage to the secondary did not.

I have a thought that this is a loss that can be caught, and used. Whenever one of these components rises I wonder if there is something to do to stop the other from falling, or to catch it as it falls.
It also seems to bolster my idea that frequency can take the place of amps, if it is tweaked right.

just some thoughts added to some definite observations.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 19, 2009, 08:32:51 PM

@ Jeanna:

Some very good thoughts and observations there.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on September 19, 2009, 10:39:09 PM

Quote from: jeanna on September 19, 2009, 07:48:38 PM
OK, Gary, I do not need to repeat this test for you.

I found that when I did anything that raised the voltage the frequency would drop.
And the reverse, whenever I did something that increased the frequency the voltage dropped.

So, I first told the world when I was tuning the base resistor, when I increased the base resistor value the frequency in the pickup increased, and the voltage dropped.
Then I wound more turns on the toroid to increase the voltage, and it did. And, as the voltage increased, the frequency decreased.

Stick a magnet on a toroid.
The frequency jumps up and the voltage drops.
Sometimes I see some people notice this as an anomaly, but it isn't. It is a rule.

I checked this out a lot of times and ways.
There have been a couple of exceptions, but they were small and may have to do with resolution of the scope more than something else.

In the 2 tier circuit, it continues to happen, but in a complicated way.
Those secondaries are no longer working on a 'simple' single toroid. but the effect is almost 100% the same.

When I was watching professor Lewin teaching about or around this subject, I saw an equation a differential equation that addresses this. It was not the same circuit as ours, but there was the same reciprocal relationship of voltage to frequency.

Hmm, I just lost half this post...
One more thing.
One day I doubled the battery voltage going into th system. The frequency jumped up but the output voltage to the secondary did not.

I have a thought that this is a loss that can be caught, and used. Whenever one of these components rises I wonder if there is something to do to stop the other from falling, or to catch it as it falls.
It also seems to bolster my idea that frequency can take the place of amps, if it is tweaked right.

just some thoughts added to some definite observations.

jeanna

Thanks for the reply

I can see that you have given this alot of thought.

I have not focused on frequency very much ...... I was pretty sure that it was a frequency shift that was causing my self charging circuits to stop charging if I left them alone for more than a few hours .

Once I get a scope I will have a practical way to watch the frequency among other things .

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I have not had much time to work with my bifilar toroid today
I did try one thing so far .
I I reversed the wires going to the E and the base .
I had made the mag wire shorter for lower resistance for the base .

Now I have conected the iron ( higher resistance ) wire to the base and it is like a different toroid .
Before I could not get enough power out of it to do anything with 1 AA
It also would not run without the JT LED in place .

Now it lights brightly with 1 AA and does not change much when I remove the JT LED

The voltage across the LED array is only 2 V more than yesterday .......but the LEDs are at least twice as bright ......

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 20, 2009, 01:21:49 AM

Gary:

Try E-bay for the scope. A few months back I picked up my Tektronics 2213 dual channel 60 mgHz scope for $110.00 plus shipping. This was the scope to have, so I am told, from back in the 80's and 90's for technicians and EE's.

It is obviously not battery powered but Jim helped me solve my little predicament with my EB by suggesting I use an extension cord (25') and clip my leads to it outside and then attach my probes to it inside. Works very well for me. Just a suggestion as these can be had for a decent price if you watch for them and get one from a good seller.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 20, 2009, 02:53:27 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on September 19, 2009, 10:39:09 PM

Once I get a scope I will have a practical way to watch the frequency among other things .

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
...
I I reversed the wires going to the E and the base .
I had made the mag wire shorter for lower resistance for the base .

Now I have conected the iron ( higher resistance ) wire to the base and it is like a different toroid .
.......but the LEDs are at least twice as bright ......

Yes, I think getting a scope is great.
BTW, My HPS10 is a great option too. I got it for $189 at allelectronics. It uses 5 NiMH batteries.
BUT
They make another model which not only has a backlight- so you can see it-
It has a scsi connector so you can put it into your pc.
AND it is called HPS40 because the sample rate is 40Mhz, where mine is 10Mhz.
It will cost more than mine, unless I can find that link xee provided.
I asked him about neons and the link he gave me had this scope even cheaper than allelectronics.
I kind of kicked myself when I saw it.
But you can get it.
If you get a wallwart you can recharge the batteries and use it plugged in as well.

~~~~~
Now, reversing the wires to add resistance to the base side is brilliant.

I am thinking these days that the power is there with the first set of pulses.
It is our job to find and use the right components to collect this power into our machines.
I think your low output voltage and brighter leds is an indicator for you that there is more.
I betcha the frequency went up which would be why the lights got brighter. If so, that would mean that you could lower the frequency and 'extract' some more volts for the lights.

This is my method, anyway... or my madness? ;D

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 21, 2009, 01:13:10 AM

Gary and everybody,
I just added something to the circuit next door, but I also just put together another piece from the effects we were talking about yesterday.

If you look at the first post on that thread, I posted a pic of tesla's way of drawing his ac producing circuits. In every one of them there is a place where there is one or 2 sometimes 3 discharge gaps.

I have been thinking that I have NOT been doing his circuit yet because (ignoring the lack of spark gaps) I have not been adding inductors to the end and making another level through that transformer effect.

BUT I see that since the flyback/BEMF is making a spike which is essentially the same thing as the spark gap, I am in fact making a copy of his circuits.

I am stoked. This is really cool.

Yesterday I added a toroid inductor which I tanked with a 1uF cap. I have left it there because for once it is not making the lights go dimmer, but the fact is that it does nothing. The inductor works without it. This is probably the reason... wow, I am just making the substitute for the d..d discharges in Tesla's drawings!!

:D,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on September 21, 2009, 02:37:36 PM

Quote from: jeanna on September 20, 2009, 02:53:27 PM
Yes, I think getting a scope is great.
BTW, My HPS10 is a great option too. I got it for $189 at allelectronics. It uses 5 NiMH batteries.
BUT
They make another model which not only has a backlight- so you can see it-
It has a scsi connector so you can put it into your pc.
AND it is called HPS40 because the sample rate is 40Mhz, where mine is 10Mhz.
It will cost more than mine, unless I can find that link xee provided.
I asked him about neons and the link he gave me had this scope even cheaper than allelectronics.
I kind of kicked myself when I saw it.
But you can get it.
If you get a wallwart you can recharge the batteries and use it plugged in as well.

~~~~~
Now, reversing the wires to add resistance to the base side is brilliant.

I am thinking these days that the power is there with the first set of pulses.
It is our job to find and use the right components to collect this power into our machines.
I think your low output voltage and brighter leds is an indicator for you that there is more.
I betcha the frequency went up which would be why the lights got brighter. If so, that would mean that you could lower the frequency and 'extract' some more volts for the lights.

This is my method, anyway... or my madness? ;D

jeanna

Jeanna

Here is a scope that I really like .
It costs about twice what I am willing to pay right now .
It is a new design from one of the largest scope manufactures in china.

http://www.owon.com.cn/eng/hds-nSeries.asp
The 20 MHz version is selling for around 600
The 60 MHz is selling for around 700

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I am thinking of making a copy of the last coil that I made ......
Last time the iron wire was twice as long as the copper.
This time the copper will be longer .
The lengths of wire will stay the same.

Actually I thought of switching the wires because I remembered something about you not being able to get the 3055 going ....... you switched the wires and it worked .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on September 23, 2009, 07:55:40 AM

:)Hello everyone, I just bought a 10mhz scope, I measured my 1.3v AA and the scope says its 1/2 that, and when measuring my JT output...it says its 10 V. Yet my multimeter says the battery is 1.3v and my JT output is 20 V.
So no matter what Volt/Div-control i set this to, it still shows only 1/2 of the true volts,
the scope's - volt var calibration is set to the lowest setting, are you suppose to set this control upwards to set voltage ???
Or is this just a faulty machine ???

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 23, 2009, 11:37:55 AM

Here is my 2 cents. Did you calibrate your scope per the instructions first? On my scope, there is a calibration port where you stick the probe and set the adjustment controls to zero everything out. I also had to adjust the capacitance of my probes as well. Your manual should tell you how to do all of this. Unless yours is a digital scope, mine is analog, (CRO) you then read the amounts from the scales on the screen depending upon your settings.

I am no expert with my scope but this is what I had to do with mine.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: IotaYodi on September 23, 2009, 12:16:57 PM

Ditto Pirate. With analog scopes the probes need to be calibrated every time you turn the scope on. This is done with the probe connected to the probe test which normally puts out a square wave. You would adjust the probe with a small screwdriver. Settings on the scope have to be set first. They can vary from scope to scope. Your manual should tell you the settings for calibrating the probe. You probably have a probe that can be switched to 1x and 10x. The manual should tell you which one to use for calibrating the probe.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 23, 2009, 01:39:26 PM

Quote from: freepow on September 23, 2009, 07:55:40 AM

What is the brand name of the scope. Maybe someone can help better.
I had a lot of problems like the ones you describe, but it was because it was my first scope, the manual was impossible to understand, and nobody else was using a hand held battery powered one. It makes a difference. The instructions are different.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on September 24, 2009, 05:39:56 AM

Hi, how do you calibrate a (1x 10x) probe ???
My instructions say to conect probe tip to probe test on the scope and have the scope switched to ground, but nothing happens, but if i also connect the aligator clip on probe lead to the negitive on the battery on my JT...then i seem to get those funny square waves and i seem to be able to adjust the probe screw which seems to adjust the square wave slightly on the screen.
Is that the correct way to calibrate the probe ???
If i dont connect the aligator clip to the negitive on my JT then i dont seem to get any square wave on the scope, but the instructions dont tell you what to connect the aligator clip too !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on September 24, 2009, 09:10:44 AM

Hello again, I am measuring AC off my secondary with one side of secondary to the prope tip, but where does the aligator clip go to ??? Does it go to the other side of secondary and with a LED on secondary aswell or without LED, or does the aligator clip go else where ???
:-\ :-\

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on September 24, 2009, 09:12:39 AM

I have already lit one NEON on this secondary, but wont light any more ! and i want to know where to put prope tip and aligator clip ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: IotaYodi on September 24, 2009, 11:21:00 AM

Quotei want to know where to put prope tip and aligator clip ?

The alligator clip goes on the negative or ground when checking a circuit.
On my scope I dont need the alligator clip hooked up when calibrating the probe.
You do need to have all the scope settings right to adjust the probe using the prb adj (probe adjust) connector on the scope. If you give the make and model someone can help you with it faster.
If you have a perfect square wave using the probe adjust connection with no rounded corners or spikes, then the probe is set correctly.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on September 24, 2009, 03:24:49 PM

Is your secondary output 'free floating' or is one side grounded? if one side is grounded to the rest of the circuit then you crock clip shares the same grounding point. However if the secondary winding is not connected to ground, then your probe will be connected to one secondary output wire and the crock clip then goes to the other, effectively the scope is connected across the secondary output. If you are lighting a neon you will likely have to switch your probe to divide by 10 otherwise the scope Y amplifier may overload.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on September 24, 2009, 08:41:14 PM

:) :) I have a very important question for anyone who can help me...
I have a Joule thief with bifilar and a secondary wound on the toroid, The secondary is just wound on the toroid but is not connected to the circuit.
I can light up only one NEON on this secondary, but i have measured the AC volts on my 10 MHZ scope and there is three ways i have tested this...

First way is - probe tip connected to one side of secondary and the aligator clip not connected and i measure 52 AC volts.

Second way is - probe tip connected to one side of secondary and aligator clip to other side of secondary and i measure 210 AC volts.

Third way is - probe connected to one side of secondary and the aligator clip to negative on battery in joule thief and i measure 74 AC volts.

Which is the correct connecting procedure with probe tip and aligator clip ?? Remember i can only light one NEON only with this secondary coil !

PLease help me, thankyou.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on September 24, 2009, 09:06:16 PM

Quote from: freepow on September 24, 2009, 08:41:14 PM
:) :) I have a very important question for anyone who can help me...
I have a Joule thief with bifilar and a secondary wound on the toroid, The secondary is just wound on the toroid but is not connected to the circuit.
I can light up only one NEON on this secondary, but i have measured the AC volts on my 10 MHZ scope and there is three ways i have tested this...

First way is - probe tip connected to one side of secondary and the aligator clip not connected and i measure 52 AC volts.

Second way is - probe tip connected to one side of secondary and aligator clip to other side of secondary and i measure 210 AC volts.

Third way is - probe connected to one side of secondary and the aligator clip to negative on battery in joule thief and i measure 74 AC volts.

Which is the correct connecting procedure with probe tip and aligator clip ?? Remember i can only light one NEON only with this secondary coil !

PLease help me, thankyou.

Freepow
The second way is correct
With 210V AC you should be able to light 2 neons in series .
I am guessing you do not have enough power to do that.
Try connecting the leads same as the second way ......except add the neon
I think you will find that your operating voltage is over 90 V but probably less than 150 V
I say that just because it takes about 90 V to light one neon ..... much over 150 and you got a good chance of lighting 2l

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on September 24, 2009, 10:49:52 PM

Hi, thanks for reply, i measured 88 AC volts when i connected NEON, but it says about 140-150 AC volts without, do you measure AV volts with Neon connected or without ???

Because without NEON it says 140-150v but it will only light one Neon, so whats the correct way??

Oh to calibrate probe-do you connect probe tip to probe test and aligator to what ?????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on September 25, 2009, 11:43:43 AM

Hi freepow, Your secondary AC voltage will show a higher reading without a load connected as no current is flowing anywhere. As soon as you connect a load i.e. neon etc the voltage will fall as current flows into the load. The relevant high impedance of your secondary winding to achieve the desired high voltage is shunted by the current demands of the load you connect across it, which will depict how much voltage you will end up with when the load is connected. Hope this helps... If you are new to electronics look up Ohm's law and also Impedance, an understanding here will help you along. Lastly you scope probe tip is attached to the calibration output test point of your scope. The alligator clip connects only to the grounding point of the circuit under test, the clip is grounded through the scope's BNC connector so leave it free while checking the calibration. Hope this helps.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on September 25, 2009, 12:23:25 PM

Quote from: freepow on September 24, 2009, 10:49:52 PM
Hi, thanks for reply, i measured 88 AC volts when i connected NEON, but it says about 140-150 AC volts without, do you measure AV volts with Neon connected or without ???

Because without NEON it says 140-150v but it will only light one Neon, so whats the correct way??

Freepow

Either way could be right depending on what you are looking for.

With out the Neon you are reading the voltage without load

With the Neon you are reading the voltage with a load .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on September 28, 2009, 07:56:55 AM

Hello, has anyone tried a super bright white LED rated at 3v 100ma at 360,000 mcd ???
How bright would this LED be ???
I am thinking of getting some and trying it on a JT for night lighting for my house, any comments appreciated, thanks.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: IotaYodi on September 28, 2009, 09:29:03 AM

Approximate luminous flux: 172.180 lumens

As a point of reference, a standard 100W light bulb typically is rated at around 1,700 lumens in North America, and around 1,300 lumens in 220V areas of the world.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 28, 2009, 01:30:56 PM

Quote from: freepow on September 28, 2009, 07:56:55 AM
Hello, has anyone tried a super bright white LED rated at 3v 100ma at 360,000 mcd ???
How bright would this LED be ???
I am thinking of getting some and trying it on a JT for night lighting for my house, any comments appreciated, thanks.

I have lit up to 5 of those with several of my JT circuits. They were powered either by an AA battery or my EB or EER. (earth battery)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 28, 2009, 11:04:15 PM

Quote from: IotaYodi on September 28, 2009, 09:29:03 AM
Approximate luminous flux: 172.180 lumens

As a point of reference, a standard 100W light bulb typically is rated at around 1,700 lumens in North America, and around 1,300 lumens in 220V areas of the world.

Thanks for this information. I always wondered how they would compare. So, here in the US we would need about 10 of them to be around the same light as a 100 watt bulb. That's not too bad really...a bit better than I thought.

Thanks,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 28, 2009, 11:17:05 PM

@ All:

Since a good many of us have been or are working with LEDs, here is a great Makezene video explaining a lot about them including how to make your own:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3PDLsJQcGI&feature=related

I have some silicon carbide and I want to give this a try.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Lakes on September 29, 2009, 04:26:59 AM

Good informative video.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: rleverett on September 29, 2009, 05:48:24 AM

Hi there, sorry for such a newbie question.
Can a joule thief charge a 12v battery, with 12v being the most practicable industry standard ( or multiples thereof) for power useage, then any reliable low voltage supply (earth battery, aerial collector) could be used to build up power?
Does anyone know if this is possible?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kamax on September 29, 2009, 03:31:02 PM

Quote from: rleverett on September 29, 2009, 05:48:24 AM
Hi there, sorry for such a newbie question.
Can a joule thief charge a 12v battery, with 12v being the most practicable industry standard ( or multiples thereof) for power useage, then any reliable low voltage supply (earth battery, aerial collector) could be used to build up power?
Does anyone know if this is possible?

Maybe you are looking for this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VE0zUM_e4io&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VE0zUM_e4io&feature=related)

I just have uploaded my last video where i light on a 4 watt neon. It's a very very simple joule thief, no caps. The toroide makes a lot of noise, we don't hear it well on youtube except at 0:57min.

my video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLf8yglfyEY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLf8yglfyEY)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 29, 2009, 05:05:28 PM

@ Kmax:

Nice video. If you can light that 4 watt you can probably light a 48" tube as well. For me, the bigger tubes light easier and better. Try an 18" tube or a 48".

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kamax on September 29, 2009, 05:31:20 PM

Bigger light easier :o
Thanks for the info, i will give a try when i have buy one.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kamax on September 30, 2009, 03:18:43 PM

I have a new video, it's the same as previous but this time i light the lamp on wireless, on one side.

my video:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY77kTGo4ZM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY77kTGo4ZM)

For the bigger lamp it don't works for the moment, i think i need more power.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on September 30, 2009, 04:39:39 PM

@ kamax

Quote from: kamax on September 30, 2009, 03:18:43 PM
I have a new video, it's the same as previous but this time i light the lamp on wireless, on one side.

my video:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY77kTGo4ZM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY77kTGo4ZM)

For the bigger lamp it don't works for the moment, i think i need more power.

Great video. I suspect that you do not have quite enough turns on your pickup coil to get over 400 volts out. If you increase the pickup coil turns by 50% the tube should light without touching it and you should be able to light a large tube.

In looking at your video, I am confused about the two colors (blue and white) used for the pickup coil. Is there some reason why you are using two colors? Have you posted the number of turns in your coils?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kamax on September 30, 2009, 05:08:10 PM

Quote from: xee2 on September 30, 2009, 04:39:39 PM
@ kamax

Great video. I suspect that you do not have quite enough turns on your pickup coil to get over 400 volts out. If you increase the pickup coil turns by 50% the tube should light without touching it and you should be able to light a large tube.

In looking at your video, I am confused about the two colors (blue and white) used for the pickup coil. Is there some reason why you are using two colors? Have you posted the number of turns in your coils?

The blue/white color is only one wire, it's a bicolor wire who comes from the inside of a ethernet wire. I don't know how many turns, sorry, it has take me hours to wind the pickup. I just can say i have used 10m.

The output clearly depend on the transistor i use, with a:
2n2222a i get ~100V
2n3054 i get ~140V
I'm still waiting for a 2n3055 from the postal service. The volts i read are dc on a cap after a bridge.

On my last video i don't touch the tube, and a wire is missing :)
But yes i need more power for a bigger.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on September 30, 2009, 06:01:25 PM

@ kamax

This worked for me. Toroid is $3.50 from:

http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/TOR-60/3.38-DIAMETER-FERRITE-TOROID/1.html

Cut length of wire needed then wrap it around a small diameter tube and thread tube through center of toroid. It only takes about 1/2 hour to make it that way.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: protonmom on September 30, 2009, 07:49:54 PM

Hi everyone. I am still trying to read the entire thread, but I have not even gotten to page 100 yet...so I have no idea what is going on currently. However, I have a question, so please forgive me for jumping in here. And if this has already been answered somewhere, just tell me which post/page to look at, okay? I have a bunch of I-zone cameras and decided to open one up to see what lies within. Does anyone know if this circuit board can be used in any way for a joule thief? I will try to upload the picture. If it is too big, I will have to try again later. Any help would be appreciated. There are so many geniuses here, that someone should be able to tell if this can be used. Thanks in advance.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 30, 2009, 09:02:34 PM

Hi protonmom,

My answer is I dunno.
Wilby had a great system for doing almost any camera circuit, I think you can find his system in the form of a drawing on the thread Bill made with just the circuits.

I was able to light a fluoro from the AA kind when I put the ends of the fluoro tube between the wires where the cap was.
So, remove the cap but leave some wire so you can connect it.

Short the cap with a screwdriver before you go near it and once for good luck after . It isn't going to really hurt you but I do have a charred spot in my grandmother's tablecloth! (oops!).
( It is enough voltage to hurt you but you must touch each end with a different hand, and that is pretty hard to do when the leads are 3/8 inch apart.)

Anyway try that first.
There are better camera experts than I am.
But, that just might work.

The next thing to do is to short out a diode. If there is only one, you can do that, but if there are 2, I need to back out, cuz I am not sure.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kamax on October 01, 2009, 01:53:42 PM

Thanks for your help Xee2. I have changed my primary 2t/10t but i can't light the tube better. And when i put a bridge+cap i read only ~80Volts.

After that i have changed again my primary to a conventional bifilar and an increase of voltage for each turn:
-2 turn ~60V
-3 turn ~90V
-4 turn ~120v

So, +30V for each turn but with more that 4 or 5 turn, the increase is not so important. I have now 13 turn and ~170V. But the tube don't light if i connect it like your last pic. The "wireless effect" was not so important as previous and touching some wires hurt my fingers enough that i remove them very quick.

Then i have play with the resistor who change the max output and the noise of the toroide. I have increase the value and the voltage go down but higher frequency noise.

With more high noise/frequency from the toroide, i was able to have a very good wireless effect even the voltage is not on the max. And i can touch every wires without pain this time. I can light a side of the 18W tube but not all.

Does someone know it the wireless effect i have is magnetic or more a sort of radiant energy ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on October 01, 2009, 03:29:15 PM

@ kamax

Quote from: kamax on October 01, 2009, 01:53:42 PM
Does someone know it the wireless effect i have is magnetic or more a sort of radiant energy ?

The wireless effect is capacitive coupling and increasing frequency will also increase the amount of energy coupled through the capacitive coupling.

You seem to have a very low permeability toroid. This aids wireless coupling but produces less inductance per turn. You may need to use a different toroid (with higher permeability) to be able to light the tubes.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: protonmom on October 01, 2009, 06:15:41 PM

Quote from: jeanna on September 30, 2009, 09:02:34 PM

Short the cap with a screwdriver before you go near it and once for good luck after . It isn't going to really hurt you but I do have a charred spot in my grandmother's tablecloth! (oops!).
( It is enough voltage to hurt you but you must touch each end with a different hand, and that is pretty hard to do when the leads are 3/8 inch apart.)

jeanna

Thanks Jeanna. Did you mean that I need to use two hands to short out the cap, or did you mean in order for it to hurt me I would have to use two hands? That was not quite clear to me. I thought shorting out a cap just meant to put a screwdriver across both terminals at the same time and if there is juice it will arc. Was that wrong?
It is not like I need a different camera to work on since I have a ton of the instant ones, but since I had these I-zones, too, I felt I should also use them in some way, even if it means along with an instant cam. Or, maybe they are just junk.

BTW, Welcome Back!!!!!

(If anyone comes up with an idea for the I-zone, please let me know and give me a schematic, too.... Thanks) I am learning as I go.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on October 01, 2009, 07:03:43 PM

@all

Hello everyone !

The basic rodin jt and the second one is 12/12 jt and 48 pickup , i get anything between 25 and 189 volts . It light a neon nicely , i wish had a scope there ...

the second one has the 2 jt coil going in the opposite direction one ever the other.

i can't really test it .

Marc

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on October 01, 2009, 08:15:46 PM

Quote from: protonmom on October 01, 2009, 06:15:41 PM
.. Did you mean that I need to use two hands to short out the cap, or did you mean in order for it to hurt me I would have to use two hands? ...

BTW, Welcome Back!!!!!

Thanks,

I meant to hurt you, you would have to use 2 hands.

The high voltage must cross your chest for the impulse to confuse your heart pulsing mechanism.
Otherwise it might burn or sting your fingertip but that would be all. (except for the odd tablecloth. ;D )

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on October 01, 2009, 08:22:16 PM

Mark,
I would like to make one of each of those.
Would you be willing to describe how you made them in detail?

-----
@All,
So, when does a transformer not act like a transformer?

Gary alluded to this once and I have been finding it a lot on my last circuit.
I wound a 200T on the other side of a 20T and wanted to have it act like a step up transformer, but it went way down instead of up...

Any ideas on what gives with this?

The frequency stayed the same, and the voltage went from 5v to 1.3v

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: IotaYodi on October 01, 2009, 08:55:47 PM

QuoteDid you mean that I need to use two hands to short out the cap, or did you mean in order for it to hurt me I would have to use two hands?

You should use your right hand when dealing with "hot" high voltages because of the heart. It can take as little as .005 amp to set the heart into fibrillation. Thats not to say a normal healthy heart will do it even at higher amperes ,but better safe than sorry. Insulated handles should be used with high voltages. 50 volts itself is considered dangerous because of the amount of current it can produce. A 9 volt battery on an open cut can kill you also. A volt meter is a wonderful thing.
I have been hung up with 120 volts with a short to conduit that was pressed up against a cast iron sprinkler pipe for about 10 to 20 seconds. My insulated linemans pliers welded itself to the junction box that I was working on hot, thus creating the circuit. My left arm was wrapped around the cast iron and I couldn't let go. I was lucky the pliers finally fell off. Whoever ran the conduit never put an insulator between the cast iron and the conduit. My helper never touched me or even knew I was hung up. I climbed off the ladder and proceeded to chew a pipers butt out. I have also been hit with a 277 volt circuit that the foreman said was off. I never tested it but I should have. My hand and arm felt like a mule kicked it. Really fun stuff. :o

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: IotaYodi on October 01, 2009, 09:12:30 PM

QuoteSo, when does a transformer not act like a transformer?

If you use non pulsed dc current it acts like a regular coil and will just heat up.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on October 01, 2009, 11:01:23 PM

Iotayodi

Your story is interesting and exciting, but...

we are NOT dealing with wall current. 50 volts from the wall is not what we are talking about cuz when the wall goes through your body to the ground it is entirely different from touching the wires.

I tried to stop an electrician from changing the wires while hot and he explained that as long as he did it one handed he would be ok.
I did not watch actually. I did not like the idea because a burn is possible.
BUT that might be so for someone who is using a frequency generating machine that is plugged into the wall as stprue is,
Is that the same for you?
Are you also not using a 1.2volt battery?

But a camera will NOT NOT NOT kill you.
Nothing can cause fibrillation unless it is crossing the chest, because the signal of the heart is in the chest and not effected by what happens to the hand. ... but, of course, the spark can be hot and the wall can burn you.

---
On the q about transformers, I am using pulsed dc at 133khz and it did not transform.
Gary also mentioned this, but no one has made an explanation.

Is this not a curious thing?
Is there any other time this might happen?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: IotaYodi on October 02, 2009, 12:11:14 AM

QuoteBut a camera will NOT NOT NOT kill you.

I agree. The post I made was mainly for safety with high voltage. Your right hand still should be used when working with it. That includes hv capacitors. Being a hand or any part of the right side of the body is a longer path to the heart. That gives you a few more milli seconds to disengage from the circuit which helps.

QuoteOn the q about transformers, I am using pulsed dc at 133khz and it did not transform.

The only thing I can think of is that the dc pulse is too fast and the field is not collapsing fully. With AC the voltage always drops to zero to collapse the field. I would slow the dc pulse rate down to see what happens.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on October 02, 2009, 01:11:10 AM

@jeanna

To be honest i had to do it more then once.

The first one the regular rodin i used the drawing following drawing http://www.rialian.com/rnboyd/rodin1.jpg

i did both wires at the same time , after charting and tagging numerically the winds location , to get a clear picture of the angles , i guess you could also mark the toroid 360/12 .

the picture is not showing the pickup coil because i removed it but it was over the rodin.

the second one i first put on the pickup coil 48 turns ,i used a bigger size toroid .

then spaced the 48 turn at every 4 turns making 12 spot where to put the rodin wires ,

this one i did the first wire then the second over it , to do it a made 12 new space in the middle of the 4 winds i did before .

It is sometimes hard to do cleanly and don't get a big knot in the middle , put it should be ok if you make sure to pull the wire trough the middle of all wires.

I used a small screw driver the get the middle nice and round .

note Rodin usually have 12 turns bifillar and go around about 20 times on a air core.

the symmetry he uses is the same but i reversed the second wire and go on my last one , and only go around once making it a 1/4 ratio 12/48.

i hope this helps

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on October 02, 2009, 01:13:05 AM

Quote from: IotaYodi on October 02, 2009, 12:11:14 AM
...
The only thing I can think of is that the dc pulse is too fast and the field is not collapsing fully. With AC the voltage always drops to zero to collapse the field. I would slow the dc pulse rate down to see what happens.

That is a good explanation.

Unfortunately I cannot change the pulse, now.
I have the pre set pulse from the transistor, which is being used to light 24 other lights.
I am trying to add more lights. I added 2 more the other day and I was hoping to be able to continue to add more than that.

I was able to raise the voltage to 7.7volts at 133KHz using 56 turns on the step up side from 20T on the down side. It worked properly. 20T:56T went from 2.36v to 7.7v.

I hope I can find something better than 7.7v. I did skip from 56T directly to 200T, so I guess there is only one thing to do now...

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on October 02, 2009, 12:44:14 PM

Quote from: jeanna on October 01, 2009, 08:22:16 PM
Mark,
I would like to make one of each of those.
Would you be willing to describe how you made them in detail?

-----
@All,
So, when does a transformer not act like a transformer?

Gary alluded to this once and I have been finding it a lot on my last circuit.
I wound a 200T on the other side of a 20T and wanted to have it act like a step up transformer, but it went way down instead of up...

Any ideas on what gives with this?

The frequency stayed the same, and the voltage went from 5v to 1.3v

jeanna

Jeanna

I made quite a few of those when I first started out

I was trying to hard to get my voltage higher/

I am guessing that each toroid has a maximum power that it can handle
If you try to go over that power level the voltage crashes .

I never really found a solution ........other than to keep the number of turns lower .
I would try taking some of the wraps off of your secondary ........ if you want to learn something ........ do it like you are tuning the coil .
Take a few wraps off and hook it up and measure the results .

If I am right ........and it is a power handling thing . you should see little change as you take off the windings . Until you reach the critical area.
Then I would expect a large jump in voltage over just a few windings .
After that point the voltage should follow normal transformer rules .

gary

Edit
I would do this myself ........but I am to lazy

:)

I also am not good at documenting stuff like this .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on October 02, 2009, 06:23:59 PM

@MK1,
Thanks for the details. I think I will give this a try.

@Gary,
Thanks for the confirmation...information.

I guess this is what I will need to do.
I will, then I will make a rodin like the one MK1 just described.

This toroid is one of 2 I got that are the same material as my favorite little ones tor-23 but much bigger ID.
The other one just lit the 4 watt fluoro so it is not that the toroid cannot get that high in voltage, but, since I can't think of anything else to do, I will take out turns until voltage gets better/higher.

Also, I rewound this once already. The first time had 56T and those turns went over the 'primary' turns. I guess it did not make much difference either way. The 56T gave me about 5.6v in the usual way, but it gave a higher reading when coupled with an additional bifilar type wound on top as I described the other week. And even then, it was only 7.7v in 2 directions as a sinusoidal wave.

Oh, this is so odd that it will not follow the transformer rules.
I wonder what is stopping it. I wonder if Iotayodi's thought that the field is not collapsed enough is it.
Then, I would try to use a toroid exactly like the one in the basic joule thief spot, because IT can handle the collapse speed.
Or, since the basic has 74T secondary, maybe I need to limit it to that for a good collapse.
Hmm.

I will let you know what happens, of course.

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: IotaYodi on October 02, 2009, 10:13:35 PM

QuoteIf I am right ........and it is a power handling thing . you should see little change as you take off the windings . Until you reach the critical area

That would be right. The more wraps the larger the field, the longer it takes to collapse. If voltage is induced before the collapse it will oppose the field. The size of the wire may come into play also. If you make the secondary a smaller finer wire it may help. As I see it the pulse rate,# of turns and the forward voltage on the secondary dictates the field. It has to balance out overall to be effective.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on October 03, 2009, 12:59:55 PM

I am math impaired .

Can someone help me with find the right size resistor for using a higher voltage battery ?

I checked on the web ...... all the stuff I found about voltage drops was for power lines .

I want to be able to run a 3055 JT with a 12 V battery .

I want the 3055 to run at LESS than half power so it will stay relatively cool .

I was thinking of dropping about 9.5 V with the resistor circled .

My pot has a minimum of .5 ohms .

Any help will be appreciated

Thanks

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on October 03, 2009, 02:30:09 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on October 03, 2009, 12:59:55 PM

I am math impaired .

Can someone help me with find the right size resistor for using a higher voltage battery ?

I checked on the web ...... all the stuff I found about voltage drops was for power lines .

I want to be able to run a 3055 JT with a 12 V battery .

I want the 3055 to run at LESS than half power so it will stay relatively cool .

I was thinking of dropping about 9.5 V with the resistor circled .

My pot has a minimum of .5 ohms .

Any help will be appreciated

Thanks

gary

The 2K pot should be enough to limit current so you do not need another resistor. Just do not go to zero on the pot. But you could add a 2K resistor to be safe. You are going to need ten times larger base resistor with 12V than with 1.5V.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on October 03, 2009, 02:43:18 PM

Quote from: xee2 on October 03, 2009, 02:30:09 PM
The 2K pot should be enough to limit current so you do not need another resistor. Just do not go to zero on the pot. But you could add a 2K resistor to be safe. You are going to need ten times larger base resistor with 12V than with 1.5V.

Xee

I have a pot for that .
I have tried it ....... eventually I turn the pot the wrong way or something and burn up my transistor .
I just think it is time to work out the right resistor size and use a fixed resistor.

If I have to I can get it working with the pot then take the pot off and measure it ........but I would rather know how to calculate it .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on October 03, 2009, 04:49:29 PM

Gary,
I was hoping for an easy answer from one of the brains here, but before that comes take a look at this page:

http://www.doctronics.co.uk/resistor.htm (http://www.doctronics.co.uk/resistor.htm)
About half way down the page is a computation of the resistor needed to protect a led from a 9v battery.
One point I caught is that all the components in series will add up to the battery input.

I am not sure what counts and what doesn't on a joule thief, but maybe if you start with a 2k and see then 1k then you can easily get close.

On my extended circuit with all the secondaries, the 33r resistor drops the incoming voltage in half and the current way down.
The 10r drops the incoming voltage to about 2/3 of the battery.

So, you may only need a 100r to take the 12v down enough, but start with 2k for safety then 1k to see if you need that.

Anyway that page goes through what you need to calculate this. It is more than ohms law, but makes use of it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

@All,

I just had a half of a breakthrough.
It looks little, but, I think it puts me into a new place.

In Tesla's drawings, he shows the generator, then a transformer various spark gaps and lights etc, then looking to the right in all his circuits, you can see another transformer.
This then is followed by more spark gaps and more lights etc.

I THINK I have finally been able to get past that second transformer.
I can only light 3 and not 4 leds, and...
there is still a series component to it rather than a coil straight across the ends, but I think it counts.

It behaves funny, too.
It lights up at about the same brightness as the rest of the lights, but when I unplug the battery and let the supercap drain out, these 3 are the last to go.
When this happened before, I was able to greatly extend the lights by adding more inductors.
So, this is what I will be doing.

I am still NOT able to make it work with a straight transformer across the ends without the series group.
If I try that then all the lights go out everywhere.
And the scope is not much help because it often puts out one or both groups of lights when it measures.

So, a little more progress. And 3 more lights which is 1 more than reported the other day using a different set-up.

So 27 leds.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on October 03, 2009, 06:22:06 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on October 03, 2009, 12:59:55 PM

I am math impaired .

Can someone help me with find the right size resistor for using a higher voltage battery ?

I checked on the web ...... all the stuff I found about voltage drops was for power lines .

I want to be able to run a 3055 JT with a 12 V battery .

I want the 3055 to run at LESS than half power so it will stay relatively cool .

I was thinking of dropping about 9.5 V with the resistor circled .

My pot has a minimum of .5 ohms .

Any help will be appreciated

Thanks

gary

Hi, Garry calculating the exact value is not that easy as you are not dealing with steady state DC voltages.The transistor is switching off and on at the circuits resonant frequency. As already suggested experiment with a pott and connect a series resistor. You are controlling the collector current by adjusting the base current. Start with a high value and steadily reduce the pott resistance until you achieve your target. I don't know your level of technical knowledge but if you guy's are working with 2n3055 transistors it would be helpfull to down load a PDF of this device. The spec should give examples of the required base bias for relative collector output current (hfe/gain) once you know the base bias required for your project you can then calculate a value for your base resistor. Hope this helps. Merv

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: IotaYodi on October 03, 2009, 09:18:20 PM

From what Ive read about the 2n3055 they are fairly old and rarely are not used without a heat sink. You may just have thermal runaway. You could try putting a to-3 heat sink on to see what happens using just the pot. They also can be made by different manufacturers with slightly different specs. As Crowclaw suggested you may want to download the manufacturers data sheet for their parameters.
Jenna gave a pretty good link on calculations. You would need to know how much current is needed at the transistor to make a resistance calculation easier.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on October 03, 2009, 11:33:56 PM

Hi All,
I just added a post with a pic about today's successes on the ac thread.
It is getting pretty wild, all this success. ;D

I will be making a drawing and hopefully posting that tomorrow... or sometime...hopefully it will help?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on October 04, 2009, 12:05:44 PM

Quote from: jeanna on October 03, 2009, 04:49:29 PM
Gary,
I was hoping for an easy answer from one of the brains here, but before that comes take a look at this page:

http://www.doctronics.co.uk/resistor.htm (http://www.doctronics.co.uk/resistor.htm)
About half way down the page is a computation of the resistor needed to protect a led from a 9v battery.
One point I caught is that all the components in series will add up to the battery input.

I am not sure what counts and what doesn't on a joule thief, but maybe if you start with a 2k and see then 1k then you can easily get close.

On my extended circuit with all the secondaries, the 33r resistor drops the incoming voltage in half and the current way down.
The 10r drops the incoming voltage to about 2/3 of the battery.

So, you may only need a 100r to take the 12v down enough, but start with 2k for safety then 1k to see if you need that.

Anyway that page goes through what you need to calculate this. It is more than ohms law, but makes use of it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

@All,

I just had a half of a breakthrough.
It looks little, but, I think it puts me into a new place.

In Tesla's drawings, he shows the generator, then a transformer various spark gaps and lights etc, then looking to the right in all his circuits, you can see another transformer.
This then is followed by more spark gaps and more lights etc.

I THINK I have finally been able to get past that second transformer.
I can only light 3 and not 4 leds, and...
there is still a series component to it rather than a coil straight across the ends, but I think it counts.

It behaves funny, too.
It lights up at about the same brightness as the rest of the lights, but when I unplug the battery and let the supercap drain out, these 3 are the last to go.
When this happened before, I was able to greatly extend the lights by adding more inductors.
So, this is what I will be doing.

I am still NOT able to make it work with a straight transformer across the ends without the series group.
If I try that then all the lights go out everywhere.
And the scope is not much help because it often puts out one or both groups of lights when it measures.

So, a little more progress. And 3 more lights which is 1 more than reported the other day using a different set-up.

So 27 leds.

jeanna

Jeanna
Thanks for the link
I will check it out as soon as I have time .

I did know enough about voltage drops to know that all the voltage drops in a circuit equal the source voltage .

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

It is interesting that your new LEDs stay on longer than the others .
That is similar to what happens when I add alot of feedback and flyback trying to reach a self charging state .
I like the effect ......the LEDs come on slow and go off slow . It may take a several seconds to reach full brightness .
Partly because of this slow on and off one of the projects I want to do when I get the 12 V part of it perfected is a replacement dome light for my car . I am going to add a pot or a switch so I can light the LEDs at diffrent intensity's .
I want to have a dim setting that is about equal to the original light .
I want a brighter setting that is bright enough to actually read by .
I find the slow on and off to be very easy on the eyes .
It is going to take some doing to get enough inductors into the space inside the light .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on October 04, 2009, 12:32:00 PM

Quote from: crowclaw on October 03, 2009, 06:22:06 PM
Hi, Garry calculating the exact value is not that easy as you are not dealing with steady state DC voltages.The transistor is switching off and on at the circuits resonant frequency. As already suggested experiment with a pott and connect a series resistor. You are controlling the collector current by adjusting the base current. Start with a high value and steadily reduce the pott resistance until you achieve your target. I don't know your level of technical knowledge but if you guy's are working with 2n3055 transistors it would be helpfull to down load a PDF of this device. The spec should give examples of the required base bias for relative collector output current (hfe/gain) once you know the base bias required for your project you can then calculate a value for your base resistor. Hope this helps. Merv

Merv

Thanks for replying
That is pretty much what I have tried so far .
I have got it to work .......but then I end up burning up the transistor .
I had hoped that there was a simple way to come up with a good value

I do have a copy of a spec sheet . I am not sure it is as complete as some .

For me the next step is about taking what I have learned about JTs flybaclk and feedback and make some real working stuff with that knowledge .
I like to keep things simple when expermenting .......so I tend to make up test boards .
and use standard connections .
What I am trying to do now is come up with an adapter for my 3055 test board that will allow me to run 12 V

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on October 04, 2009, 12:40:31 PM

Quote from: IotaYodi on October 03, 2009, 09:18:20 PM
From what Ive read about the 2n3055 they are fairly old and rarely are not used without a heat sink. You may just have thermal runaway. You could try putting a to-3 heat sink on to see what happens using just the pot. They also can be made by different manufacturers with slightly different specs. As Crowclaw suggested you may want to download the manufacturers data sheet for their parameters.
Jenna gave a pretty good link on calculations. You would need to know how much current is needed at the transistor to make a resistance calculation easier.

IotaYodi

The last 3055 I fried was not thermal runaway .
I have a very good heatsink on my test board .
Part of the reason I want to limit the 3055 to less than half power is to get away from the need for a heatsink .

I am adding a picture of my 2055 test board .

gary

Edit

This is an old picture
I have added a few things .... like terminal blocks so I can change the transistor faster
It is also designed for a 3 wire connection to the JT coil
I will have to add another connection point for higher input voltage ........

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on October 04, 2009, 01:57:24 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on October 04, 2009, 12:40:31 PM
IotaYodi

The last 3055 I fried was not thermal runaway .
I have a very good heatsink on my test board .
Part of the reason I want to limit the 3055 to less than half power is to get away from the need for a heatsink .

I am adding a picture of my 2055 test board .

gary

Edit

This is an old picture
I have added a few things .... like terminal blocks so I can change the transistor faster
It is also designed for a 3 wire connection to the JT coil
I will have to add another connection point for higher input voltage ........

Have you tried Power Mosfets, basically easyer to work with when experimenting, they have a high input impedance (no high base bias current) and the source to drain resistance is extremely low, so much better for your experimental projects.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on October 04, 2009, 03:47:10 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on October 04, 2009, 12:05:44 PM

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

It is interesting that your new LEDs stay on longer than the others .
That is similar to what happens when I add alot of feedback and flyback trying to reach a self charging state .

No kidding. That is interesting.
thanks for that.

Quote...
It is going to take some doing to get enough inductors into the space inside the light .

;D true!! ;D
the tor-23 (10/$1) are only 3/8 inch across and that is what I am using to light the first 10 leds from only one secondary.

---
I am thinking that you could make a very simple breadboard circuit with a 2k r resistor and a single led. back to your 12v battery.

This will allow you to check the voltage across that resistor. When it gets to 1.2v you should be home free. If that is still too low you can raise it slowly etc.
this isn't a transistor, but it is the 0.7v to turn on the led and 2 volts to run it.

I had forgotten the 2 volts part. It now seems so high.

You can also read the volts across the led to be sure of that.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on October 04, 2009, 05:07:05 PM

Quote from: crowclaw on October 04, 2009, 01:57:24 PM
Have you tried Power Mosfets, basically easyer to work with when experimenting, they have a high input impedance (no high base bias current) and the source to drain resistance is extremely low, so much better for your experimental projects.

crowclaw

I tried a couple of MOSFETS when I was just starting out with JTs
I didn't have any luck with them .
I know alot more now .....so it might be time to try them again .

Because of the high input impedance ......wouldn't a MOSFET require a much higher resistance ? ( for my voltage dropping resistor )
It seems to me it would not take much to charge up a circuit that has almost no output .
Maybe a zener diode would be required to protect the MOSFET from spikes.

Have you tried using MOSFETS for JTs ?
From the spec sheets that I have seen most MOSFETS have a diode across the source and drain . I am not sure .....but I do not think that a MOSFET with a diode in it would work very good for a JT.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on October 04, 2009, 06:27:45 PM

Quote from: jeanna on October 04, 2009, 03:47:10 PM
No kidding. That is interesting.
thanks for that.
;D true!! ;D
the tor-23 (10/$1) are only 3/8 inch across and that is what I am using to light the first 10 leds from only one secondary.

---
I am thinking that you could make a very simple breadboard circuit with a 2k r resistor and a single led. back to your 12v battery.

Jeanna

Although I have to admit that it is very hard to find something as effective as a toroid for JTs
I still am not satified with toroids in general .........what I dislike most about them is that they seem so narrow ..... one type of toroid is good only for certian purposes . For toroids to be practical it should be possible to use one type of toroid for many applications .

Remember my longwire JT?
It may be at least a partial answer to adapting toroids to different applications.

For those that do not remember my longwire JT is just a twisted pair of wires .
The wire I use comes from a Cat5 cable .
5 or 6 ft of twisted pair will work as a JT coil .......no need for a core or even loops
I am not sure how many ways the longwire JT can be used to connect with secondarys or what kind of secondarys work best .
My original findings are that if a string of toroids used .......and the windings on the toroids are connected in series .....it seems to work like one larger toroid .
The method of connection so far has been either wrapping one or 2 windings around the toroid ..........or feeding one end of the longwire JT though the center of a string of toioids .
One wrap or one pass through the center of the string of toroids may be enough for low permeability toroids .... for higher permeability toroids another wrap or to .....or more passes through the string might be needed .

I am pretty sure that using a low number of passes through a string of relatively high permeability toroids will require a winding in series on all the toroids ........ to help the toroids act as one . I think other than that one series winding the toroids can be used independently .
One more detail about the longwire JT using toroids seems to make it possible to use less twisted pair .

Quote

This will allow you to check the voltage across that resistor. When it gets to 1.2v you should be home free. If that is still too low you can raise it slowly etc.
this isn't a transistor, but it is the 0.7v to turn on the led and 2 volts to run it.

I had forgotten the 2 volts part. It now seems so high.

You can also read the volts across the led to be sure of that.

jeanna

Great idea Jeanna

I do not think I will use this idea in quite the same way you were thinking .
I was thinking that especially for MOSFETS I would need a way to prevent accidental over voltage .
I was thinking that a zener diode might be needed .........but a LED or 2 would do the same thing .....and have a visual indication that the voltage is higher than needed
WHite LEDs have a threshold of about half of the safe voltage of the 3055 ..... so that is almost perfect .
My first thoughts about this was that it may also be possible to use a 2 V diode and drive that diode with my signal so when the circuit was working well I would have light from the 2V diode but none from the white diode . Then I realised that the 2 V diode would be eating the spikes of the waveform and probably cause a much smoother output.

Anyway ....... having a LED in the base circuit should be a lifesaver ......or maybe I should say .....transistor saver .

:)

I will post a picture or 2 of my these kinds of circuits .
Mostly I have just played with the idea .
I do have one circuit with 8 medium sized hi perm toroids ( in a circle with 4 loops of wire going through the center of them .)
It seems to be fairly high power . That is one reason I am working on getting 12 V going .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on October 04, 2009, 09:25:21 PM

I just made another attempt to get a 12 V system going.

I set up my circuit ......tested it with 2 AAs

It worked good .
I had a red LED across the base/emitter As I lowered the resistance of the pot the red LED would come on.

I tried it with 3 AAs it worked the same .....except my LED array was much brighter .

I tried 12 V ...... there was a noticable spark when I connected the battery .......then nothing .
another transistor gone . ......just like the last few times .
No new knowledge of why it happened

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on October 04, 2009, 09:51:38 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on October 04, 2009, 09:25:21 PM

I tried it with 3 AAs it worked the same .....except my LED array was much brighter .

I tried 12 V ...... there was a noticable spark when I connected the battery .......then nothing .
another transistor gone . ......just like the last few times .
No new knowledge of why it happened

gary

Oh darn! My condolances.
Those are not cheap either.

Allelectronics sells one specifically called HV. Do you have that one?
The number is the same with HV added...
2N3055HV

You did learn that a red led in this place is not going to do it.

Why don't you just limit it at the 12v side as I misunderstood you to mean?
Is this because of the charging you want from it?

I am only using a 33ohm resistor on my ac secondary circuit and the lights are nearly out. It works really well, because the entire circuit works as usual, just with less.
I can easily connect to the full juice to check it out.
Since you are not attempting to light a fluorotube and do not need 450v spikes, it ought to give you the safety with the 12v

I love the idea of turning the light down then up to read.
It would make a really great bedside reading lamp.
Dim when you are not there, and bright to read.
Great idea.

----

I am wondering if you ever tried to use one iron wire and one copper wire when you made the twisted toroid.
Stubblefield figured out something here, and it makes a lot of sense that an iron wire coupled with the copper wire in the spiral formation would give extra inductance without needing to resort to a ferrite toroid.

I would suggest using what my hardware store has that is called black annealed wire.
It is plain soft iron which ought to have the right properties. Not as much as a core, but more than plain copper.

jeanna

1 more thing... I think I keep forgetting this to you and to jesus.
In the movie bearden says that bedini had a lot of trouble with his feedback when he tried to have the battery that was the source, be the same one that is being charged.
I do not think you are set up that way, but you could be getting something like the same effect which is blowing out your transistors... and jesus' pulse motor.
Just a thought.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on October 04, 2009, 10:59:48 PM

Quote from: jeanna on October 04, 2009, 09:51:38 PM
Oh darn! My condolances.
Those are not cheap either.

Allelectronics sells one specifically called HV. Do you have that one?
The number is the same with HV added...
2N3055HV

You did learn that a red led in this place is not going to do it.

Why don't you just limit it at the 12v side as I misunderstood you to mean?
Is this because of the charging you want from it?

I am only using a 33ohm resistor on my ac secondary circuit and the lights are nearly out. It works really well, because the entire circuit works as usual, just with less.
I can easily connect to the full juice to check it out.
Since you are not attempting to light a fluorotube and do not need 450v spikes, it ought to give you the safety with the 12v

I love the idea of turning the light down then up to read.
It would make a really great bedside reading lamp.
Dim when you are not there, and bright to read.
Great idea.

----

I am wondering if you ever tried to use one iron wire and one copper wire when you made the twisted toroid.
Stubblefield figured out something here, and it makes a lot of sense that an iron wire coupled with the copper wire in the spiral formation would give extra inductance without needing to resort to a ferrite toroid.

I would suggest using what my hardware store has that is called black annealed wire.
It is plain soft iron which ought to have the right properties. Not as much as a core, but more than plain copper.

jeanna

1 more thing... I think I keep forgetting this to you and to jesus.
In the movie bearden says that bedini had a lot of trouble with his feedback when he tried to have the battery that was the source, be the same one that is being charged.
I do not think you are set up that way, but you could be getting something like the same effect which is blowing out your transistors... and jesus' pulse motor.
Just a thought.

Jeanna

I only have the regular 3055s I will have to look up the HV version .

I am not so sure that a red LED is not enough .
There may be other problems with the circuit

I am trying to limit only the base
If I remember right the emitter and collector can handle around 70V
If I drop the voltage down I will just be making alot of heat in a resistor .....and I will not get any more power out than if I used the voltage that I dropped it to .

I did try a bi-metal winding ......as a matter of fact I was using it when I blew the last 2 transistors . It seems to be in a higher power range than any of my toroids .
That is one reason I was trying it ....

I have some rebar tie wire that I coated with shellac.
It is to thick to do much with.
The wire I used came from a craft shop . It is called florist wire . Iron wire painted green .....
I coated it with shellac to make sure that it had good insulating properties then wound it around one of my splitter LMs.
This florist wire was as thin as I have ever seen ....... #24

My pot was set on max when I connected the 12 V 24 K ohms
That should have been way more than enough .

One other detail .......the transistor did not even get warm

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on October 04, 2009, 11:19:40 PM

Just after I posted that last post it hit me what went wrong.

I was looking for problems with my circuit .

I did not focus enough on other things .

I have a capacitive charger on my 12V battery .
Just a cap and a bridge .
It works great for reconditioning lead acid batterys

I connected to this charger because it was already hooked up to the battery .
I did not check the battery switch . It was off .
Usually I unplug the charger after I charge up the battery ... last time I just turned it off but didn;t unplug it .

If this kind of charger is not hooked up to the battery the voltage will go up to line voltage .
As it turns out ... I hit my transistor with 108V
The 108 V also explains why I saw a spark when I connected the power .
I saw the 108 but misread it as 10.8 ....... I thought my battery was not holding a charge very well.

so .....more than likely my circuit is fine .......and should work once I lower my input voltage by a little over 100 V

:)

I am out of time tonight ..............tomorrow I will have to change my transistor and try it again

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on October 05, 2009, 08:23:19 AM

;D ;D Hi everyone, I'm back, I am happy with my experimenting, I have got finally resonably high AC-volts !
My scope measures around 134 volts AC or with NEON it measures around 92 volts AC.
I am happy, and will be trying to get higher AC-volts, My joule thief only has 8 turn bifilar with 30 turn secondary on it. Has anyone got this many AC-volts with this small amount of turns that i have ?????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on October 05, 2009, 10:28:11 AM

@ freepow

Quote from: freepow on October 05, 2009, 08:23:19 AM
;D ;D Hi everyone, I'm back, I am happy with my experimenting, I have got finally resonably high AC-volts !
My scope measures around 134 volts AC or with NEON it measures around 92 volts AC.
I am happy, and will be trying to get higher AC-volts, My joule thief only has 8 turn bifilar with 30 turn secondary on it. Has anyone got this many AC-volts with this small amount of turns that i have ?????

I think that is as good as anyone has gotten with a 30 turn pickup. But, what do you mean by AC output. Most JT output pulsed DC which looks like this photo from video by Yucca. This was taken at the collector, but I think the pickup coil looks the same. I do not have a scope so I can not be sure. Can you post some scope photos of your pickup coil output?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on October 05, 2009, 11:24:10 AM

Quote from: freepow on October 05, 2009, 08:23:19 AM
;D ;D Hi everyone, I'm back, I am happy with my experimenting, I have got finally resonably high AC-volts !
My scope measures around 134 volts AC or with NEON it measures around 92 volts AC.
I am happy, and will be trying to get higher AC-volts, My joule thief only has 8 turn bifilar with 30 turn secondary on it. Has anyone got this many AC-volts with this small amount of turns that i have ?????

Freepow

Great work :)

One question I have is have you tried less than 8 turns on your bifilar primary ?
It seems like 8 turns is alot ....unless you have a very high permeability toroid.

Xee

As I understand it the output has alot to do with the kind of primary windings .....some are mostly pulsed DC some are much closer to real AC.

Freepow

When you light up your neon ..... does it light both sides of the neon equally?
If so it is AC .......if it lights mostly one side it is mostly DC.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on October 05, 2009, 12:48:11 PM

@ freepow

Quote from: resonanceman on October 05, 2009, 11:24:10 AM
When you light up your neon ..... does it light both sides of the neon equally?
If so it is AC .......if it lights mostly one side it is mostly DC.

Good point. You need to look carefully. It is sometimes easy to be fooled by the reflection of the lit electrode on the unlit electrode.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on October 05, 2009, 03:28:56 PM

Great job, freepow!!

Are you reading peak to peak voltage? I think you are.
It sounds like you have the tuning very well done for your toroid.
Is there any more room in the center of your toroid?
You could just make a secondary that fills it up. This will give you the practical limit of that particular toroid.
VERY GOOD
CONGRATULATIONS

@xee2,
I have seen just about every wave shape possible from my secondaries.
I even get a pure sine wave from time to time.
I never got a pure sine wave with very high voltage, though.

If I make a simple solenoid for a secondary the wave is a simple pulsed dc.

I think YOU proved to me that a skinny pulsed dc wave is very effective, and there is no need to look for a smooth or curved shape.
I do still notice them, though.
A couple of days ago I saw a string of filled in balls held together by a thin single wave. I saved a pic, it was so unusual.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on October 05, 2009, 05:38:31 PM

:( Sorry everyone, maby I am wrong, it lights up only one side of NEON, does that mean it is not very good getting 134 volts from 8t bif - 30t wound toroid ???
I'll send a pic of scope shot later.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on October 05, 2009, 06:27:41 PM

Quote from: freepow on October 05, 2009, 05:38:31 PM
:( Sorry everyone, maby I am wrong, it lights up only one side of NEON, does that mean it is not very good getting 134 volts from 8t bif - 30t wound toroid ???
I'll send a pic of scope shot later.

You are doing it right.

It only means that you are getting pulsed DC... which is what you are supposed to be getting(, IMO).

I love pics and scope shots!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on October 05, 2009, 07:13:50 PM

@ freepow

Quote from: freepow on October 05, 2009, 05:38:31 PM
:( Sorry everyone, maby I am wrong, it lights up only one side of NEON, does that mean it is not very good getting 134 volts from 8t bif - 30t wound toroid ???
I'll send a pic of scope shot later.

No. It means your JT is working like a normal JT. To get higher output voltage just add more turns to the pickup coil.

Please do post scope shots. There are not very many good photos posted yet because not many of us have scopes.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: IotaYodi on October 05, 2009, 08:18:54 PM

QuotePlease do post scope shots. There are not very many good photos posted yet because not many of us have scopes.

I have to disagree with that. I too like scope shots. A scope gives you so much more information than just a meter. Those are some nice photos though.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mezalon on October 07, 2009, 12:13:03 AM

>:(Hello I bought the magn-works instructions through this Jule thief forum and to be honest I was a bit dissapointed, hard to understand instructions and no illustrations and the ones that were shown are hard to understand. If anyone can post or knows where to locate a better clearer assembly instructions let me know.

Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 07, 2009, 01:55:45 AM

@ Mezalon:

Welcome to our group.

Instructions for what? I am not familiar with the name you posted.

If it was for a joule thief, there are many, many links in this topic to sites with free instructions with photos, etc. Also, we have a Joule thief diagrams topic here where there are many pages of schematics for various designs that folks here have built. We have also posted here, in these many pages, very good sources for the materials required.

If you have any questions, just ask and someone here will help I am sure.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mezalon on October 07, 2009, 02:14:14 AM

Thanks for the welcome.
saw an add in this forum for a zero point energy generator, thought I would give it a try and built it, turns out the instructions are pretty lame and hard to understand. Also interested in any planes or schematic on earth batteries, especialy on the layerd designs using sheets and rod combinations. I have been experimenting with perpetual energy as well and will be posting my results and publishing as well. I believe what I have discovered should be shared and given freely so look for my postings which will contain full schematics, again thanks for the welcome.

Mezalon

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Freezer on October 07, 2009, 02:19:43 AM

Quote from: Mezalon on October 07, 2009, 12:13:03 AM
>:(Hello I bought the magn-works instructions through this Jule thief forum and to be honest I was a bit dissapointed, hard to understand instructions and no illustrations and the ones that were shown are hard to understand. If anyone can post or knows where to locate a better clearer assembly instructions let me know.

Thanks

It a bs scam. Just bits of plagiarized work.

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Magniwork

I don't think Stefen can control that ad unfortunately.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mezalon on October 07, 2009, 02:29:55 AM

wish I had found that out befor i waisted my money, is there any way to ban these ads, its false advertisment. Spent the money I was going to use to build an earth battery, Ohh well I should have known better.

Mezalon

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mannix on October 07, 2009, 02:41:30 AM

Hey Guys ..You have all been doing a fantastic job here ..please look at the Steven marks secret thread...

It may be useful to try his switching method

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on October 07, 2009, 07:25:46 AM

:) I'm back with my scope shot, volts set at 20 per division, tive div set to 1 us, and scope set on AC.
hope this helps !
What does everyone think about this spike ??

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on October 07, 2009, 07:32:27 AM

My scope shot

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on October 07, 2009, 12:59:49 PM

Quote from: jeanna on October 01, 2009, 11:01:23 PM
Iotayodi

Your story is interesting and exciting, but...

we are NOT dealing with wall current. 50 volts from the wall is not what we are talking about cuz when the wall goes through your body to the ground it is entirely different from touching the wires.

I tried to stop an electrician from changing the wires while hot and he explained that as long as he did it one handed he would be ok.
I did not watch actually. I did not like the idea because a burn is possible.
BUT that might be so for someone who is using a frequency generating machine that is plugged into the wall as stprue is,
Is that the same for you?
Are you also not using a 1.2volt battery?

But a camera will NOT NOT NOT kill you.
Nothing can cause fibrillation unless it is crossing the chest, because the signal of the heart is in the chest and not effected by what happens to the hand. ... but, of course, the spark can be hot and the wall can burn you.

---
On the q about transformers, I am using pulsed dc at 133khz and it did not transform.
Gary also mentioned this, but no one has made an explanation.

Is this not a curious thing?
Is there any other time this might happen?

jeanna

Hi Jeanna and all . I decided to spend a few hours glancing at post on wap2 and saw yours . I would have to Disagree that a camera will not kill you . . As you know there is a 350- 400 volt capacitor in there capable of throwing out several hundred amps in a split second . this is enuff to stop a heart . anyone who already has heart problems and also anyone who has an electronic Device in there chest will more than likely die if those connections are touched while Charged . They are VERY DANGERIOUS and will blow test equipment and burn you and hurt you . In My opinion they are not to be messed with unless you are experienced with the effects of high amperage high volts and know the percaussions . These camera circiuts produce the same or more than a Difibulator and its very possible if lay the right fingers across a charged camera it might kill you .A difib device is basically a camera circuit that charges a capacitor > remember to Shout CLEAR before they discharge one as some one with there hand on the person could die as well . Just my two cents since i have seen screwdrivers blow to bits shorting out a camera :) also the diffib machine if you notice has the high pictched whine and has to charge up before discharging the Dc Blast from thie capacitors to paddles or electrodes so there is a wait period before its effective just like a camera flasher circuit .

Albert
aka gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on October 07, 2009, 01:42:40 PM

@ freepow

Quote from: freepow on October 07, 2009, 07:25:46 AM
:) I'm back with my scope shot, volts set at 20 per division, tive div set to 1 us, and scope set on AC.
hope this helps !
What does everyone think about this spike ??

Nice photos. Thanks for posting them. Is this the output from the pickup coil or is it the output from the collector coil?

This is about what I see when I measure the positive and negative peak voltages from the pickup coil - mostly positive (or negative, depending on how the voltmeter leads are connected) and only a very small amount of negative voltage. Your measurement leads seem to be reversed from the way mine are.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on October 07, 2009, 04:08:55 PM

I just burnt out my last 3055

I got it to work for a little while .

On my last try I was lighting 2 LED arrays

They were lighting up pretty good ....... but not that much better than I have been able to do with 2 AAs
I tried just a little less resistance to the base and the transistor blew out .
I am not sure of the voltage I was getting .
My meter only goes to 600 V It started beeping as soon as I got a little light from the first LED array .
I must have had some pretty big spikes .

I did not have any time to try any feedback or flyback

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on October 07, 2009, 06:14:25 PM

I am measuring with probe tip to Emitter and aligator to collector.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on October 07, 2009, 06:18:36 PM

Well i have the bifilar winding connected as usuall and the secondary is actually connected as well in my experiment.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: protonmom on October 07, 2009, 06:19:28 PM

@gadget, or anyone else who might know:
Is there any device a person could use outside of an insulated screwdriver, that can discharge those cam caps safely? Perhaps some sort of wooden tongs? I have only opened three of my cameras, so far. I have not yet been shocked, fortunately. I try to be careful, yet I know it only takes a moment of looking the other way....
I thought about making some wooden tongs, but not sure just how to do it. I do have insulated screwdrivers. Do I need to add an extra layer of elec. tape around them to be sure they are safe?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on October 07, 2009, 08:13:58 PM

Quote from: protonmom on October 07, 2009, 06:19:28 PM
@gadget, or anyone else who might know:
Is there any device a person could use outside of an insulated screwdriver, that can discharge those cam caps safely? Perhaps some sort of wooden tongs? I have only opened three of my cameras, so far. I have not yet been shocked, fortunately. I try to be careful, yet I know it only takes a moment of looking the other way....
I thought about making some wooden tongs, but not sure just how to do it. I do have insulated screwdrivers. Do I need to add an extra layer of elec. tape around them to be sure they are safe?

I suspect you do have an insulated screw driver. Any screw driver with a plastic handle is insulated. In my opinion, the safest way to discharge a cap is to clip a lead to one terminal of the cap (before charging it) and then connect the other end of that lead to a many thousand ohm resistor and then connect a lead from the other end of the resistor to the screw driver. Then touch the screwdriver to the other terminal of the capacitor and hold it there for a while.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on October 07, 2009, 08:24:46 PM

[@ freepow

Quote from: freepow on October 07, 2009, 06:14:25 PM
I am measuring with probe tip to Emitter and aligator to collector.

Thanks. Thar is the best photo I have seen of the collector spike. If you have a divide by 10 probe, you might want to see what the voltage across your 30 turn pickup coil is like. I suspect it looks the same but with higher voltage. But, make sure not to exceed the max voltage input for scope.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: IotaYodi on October 07, 2009, 08:56:08 PM

QuoteIs there any device a person could use outside of an insulated screwdriver

I didnt know these little cameras were that high.
When you use a screwdriver to discharge you take a chance on degrading or destroying the cap if there is a substantial amount of voltage. If you have a high mfd cap,then even at low voltage it can cause an extreme discharge melting the screw driver. These kinds of caps can kill you even with a normal healthy heart. You can make a discharge tool in different ways. Heres a simple one

One can make a capacitor discharge tool with two insulated alligator clips, about 16 inches of 14 gauge stranded wire and a 10,000 ohm, wire-wound, 10 Watt resistor. Solder an insulated alligator clip to either end of the insulated wire. Then cut the wire about 7 inches from one end, and solder the resistor in place. Now wrap the resistor and solder points with at least three layers of ELECTRICAL TAPE.

The higher the resistor value the longer it takes to discharge. Higher voltage and current caps would need a higher Resistance.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: protonmom on October 07, 2009, 09:09:46 PM

Thanks IotaYodi,
that sounds like something even I can do. Will have to give it a try.
Guess I was just looking for something to add to my tool collection. I have a third hand on the way, so ...HEY! More tools, more goodies. Maybe I will even make something with them some day. :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kamax on October 07, 2009, 09:14:37 PM

Quote from: protonmom on October 07, 2009, 06:19:28 PM
@gadget, or anyone else who might know:
Is there any device a person could use outside of an insulated screwdriver, that can discharge those cam caps safely? Perhaps some sort of wooden tongs? I have only opened three of my cameras, so far. I have not yet been shocked, fortunately. I try to be careful, yet I know it only takes a moment of looking the other way....
I thought about making some wooden tongs, but not sure just how to do it. I do have insulated screwdrivers. Do I need to add an extra layer of elec. tape around them to be sure they are safe?

If you use only one hand and don't have the foots in water, generally there is no prob. Your body just need to be insulated from a ground like water, a piece of conducting metal, earth if you are outdoor...

The electricity always take the less resistive way. If you are not grounded(like with shoes) there is no way, except if you use 2 hands and touch + and - with different hands, in this case your body act like a resistor between your left hand->left arm->chest->right arm->right hand.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on October 07, 2009, 09:46:43 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on October 07, 2009, 04:08:55 PM
I just burnt out my last 3055

I got it to work for a little while .

On my last try I was lighting 2 LED arrays

They were lighting up pretty good ....... but not that much better than I have been able to do with 2 AAs
I tried just a little less resistance to the base and the transistor blew out .
I am not sure of the voltage I was getting .
My meter only goes to 600 V It started beeping as soon as I got a little light from the first LED array .
I must have had some pretty big spikes .

I did not have any time to try any feedback or flyback

gary

I am sorry to hear this, gary.
The part that is unclear to me is why you are expecting to get more volts from a higher voltage input battery.

This is a switch circuit, right?

All you are doing with the battery is switching the transistor on and off.
The voltage going into the secondary is coming from the inductance of the toroid not the voltage from the battery.
This is the reason the battery is not drained by what the secondary is doing.
Said a different way, this is how the amps draw can go down or remain unchanged with more lights coming off the secondary.

I never tried this, but my guess is that the 450 volts which come from my fluoro tube inductor would drain the battery as quickly with or without the tube actually there... (because it is the transistor that it is working and nothing more.)

In fact, if I check the battery volts when the light goes out then forget to remove the battery, it is significantly drained later with no light on any more.

I have never said this before to you because I just figured there was something in your feedback/flyback that was involved. But you just said you had not set them on when the transistor blew out.

Would you be interested in trying to explain it to me?

thank you,

jeanna

I just saw this on introvertebrate's bedini part2
I copied it directly from his answer to someone about why the neon in parallel to the base resistor.

Quote from: introvertebrateA neon bulb only conducts when the voltage goes over 90v. If you disconnect the charging battery then the high voltage spike from the coil won't have anywhere to go so it zaps your transistor and fries it. If you have a neon bulb in the circuit it allows the spike to goï»¿ around the transistor and protects it. It does not conduct electricity as long as the charging battery is connected and a resistor won't work either... it has to be a neon bulb.

Maybe this is what you need to do. It doesn't stop the bedini from charging etc.

j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on October 07, 2009, 10:51:26 PM

Quote from: jeanna on October 07, 2009, 09:46:43 PM
I am sorry to hear this, gary.
The part that is unclear to me is why you are expecting to get more volts from a higher voltage input battery.

This is a switch circuit, right?

All you are doing with the battery is switching the transistor on and off.
The voltage going into the secondary is coming from the inductance of the toroid not the voltage from the battery.
This is the reason the battery is not drained by what the secondary is doing.
Said a different way, this is how the amps draw can go down or remain unchanged with more lights coming off the secondary.

I never tried this, but my guess is that the 450 volts which come from my fluoro tube inductor would drain the battery as quickly with or without the tube actually there... (because it is the transistor that it is working and nothing more.)

In fact, if I check the battery volts when the light goes out then forget to remove the battery, it is significantly drained later with no light on any more.

I have never said this before to you because I just figured there was something in your feedback/flyback that was involved. But you just said you had not set them on when the transistor blew out.

Would you be interested in trying to explain it to me?

thank you,

jeanna

I just saw this on introvertebrate's bedini part2
I copied it directly from his answer to someone about why the neon in parallel to the base resistor.

Maybe this is what you need to do. It doesn't stop the bedini from charging etc.

j

Jeanna

Yes............I do expect the output voltage to be higher just because I am starting out with a higher voltage .

If I remember right ....... you spent some time with a resonance simulator when you were working on a coil gun .
Do you remember what happened when you raised the input voltage of that simulator ?
With flyback ......it is not unusual for the pulses to be 3 times the voltage of the input voltage ..... that holds true of any input voltage .
I am pretty sure that the limitations we have been finding with JTs is a combination of limited input power and the toroids saturation point ...... any given toroid can only handle so much power .
I see no reason to think that I have hit the upper limit on my bi-metal coil .

I do not think that I need the neon as your quote describes .
Remember all the real work is to be done by the secondary.
ALL the high voltage should be in the secondary or circuits following the secondary.
The primary should stay well within the safety range of the transistor .

I have been burning up quite a few transistors today .
I have burnt a 6 or 8 3094s and a few small MOSFETS .
I bought a TIP31 a while back ....... it seems to work almost as good as a 3055.
I have got this TIP31 VERY hot several times ......it is still working .
I guess I will have to check out the TIP2055 I saw one at radio shack .
The specs are very similar ..... I believe the overall power of the 2n3055 is a little higher .......

I am not sure if any of this is much of an explanation .......

I have to get a stable 12 V system going .... then I can work on flyback and feedback at the higher power levels .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on October 07, 2009, 11:37:18 PM

Gary,

Oh yes, you are right. :D
I am myself making more and less output at the secondary using the input voltage and a resistor, so I do know that it increases the output by some.

But more than anything the amount of secondary output comes about as a result of the turns around the toroid.

[74turns gives 89 volts and 21turns gives 25volts using the same transistor at the same time. ]

Also, before I did any fiddling, the input voltage of 1.2v battery gives secondary voltage of 89v, but with a 33 ohm resistor that same secondary voltage becomes 35v.
At the same time at the transistor:
C-E junction is
15v with no resistor and
10v with a 33 ohm resistor.

The bedini which is using a lot of flyback for feedback, recommends the neon to preserve the transistor.

Mostly I will back out, because I do not know about using flyback to feedback into the system.

Thanks for your reply.
It reminded me of my own decrease by using the input resistor.

Do you know how many volts you are achieving in the flyback on yours? I know you are doing this without a scope, so I am wondering.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on October 07, 2009, 11:38:09 PM

@ resonanceman

If you have put a 2000 ohm resistor in series with your pot and you are still blowing out transistors then you have a lot more than 12 volts coming in. I can run a 2N3055 from 9 volts with a 1000 ohm base resistor with no problems. You should easily be able to run from 12 volts using a 2000 ohm base resistor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on October 08, 2009, 09:37:24 AM

Quote from: kamax on October 07, 2009, 09:14:37 PM
If you use only one hand and don't have the foots in water, generally there is no prob. Your body just need to be insulated from a ground like water, a piece of conducting metal, earth if you are outdoor...

The electricity always take the less resistive way. If you are not grounded(like with shoes) there is no way, except if you use 2 hands and touch + and - with different hands, in this case your body act like a resistor between your left hand->left arm->chest->right arm->right hand.

Hi . I Didn't mean to undermine anyone here but if you recall the diffib and shouting CLEAR is done for a reason as you know most people wear shoes . It could be as simple as your leg touching a bench that you have a camera module laying on and part of the circuit touches that table . One hand won't always work so its important to know that there is more than one way besides just grabbing both sides of a cap in a camera circut . I have been knocked on My butt many times thru the years playing with tesla coils and camera chargers . I have a"what i thought was plastic board to lay circuits one . I soon discovered it was plastic with Graphite imbedded in it and actually will show continuity from end to end . I discovered it just like i said above .It was on a metal Work Bench i Have in the Shop. Needless to say even the experienced sometimes get surprizes .

. Good work every one i see some of you are playing with inverters now that you all going beyond the standard 1 volt JT to more Voltage . I guess the reason is to get more current maybe but they already have 12 volt inverters . I remember in 8th grade i made My first 12 volt inverter from a radio Vibrator and reversed 12 volt Ct transformer when every one else in the class was making electromagnets. It worked good . I had My 9 inch Black and white tube tv in the car to watch in the back seat when my parents would travel every weekend from Virgina to Nc .Ahh the days .. Well Keep on Experimenting . I dont have time anymore Lately . not enuff time as i am in process with a marketing Co to sell rights to My patented E-lite circuit for the world to use . . The Site here made me realize that showing your work open source is ok if you are a tecky but i would say only 1 in 10000 people even know how to solder much less know what we are talking about so the best way to get free energy out to the masses is to get it manufactured so the can have access to buy it .
Peace and Goodluck everyone .

albert

aka Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on October 08, 2009, 01:47:47 PM

Quote from: jeanna on October 07, 2009, 11:37:18 PM
Gary,

Oh yes, you are right. :D
I am myself making more and less output at the secondary using the input voltage and a resistor, so I do know that it increases the output by some.

But more than anything the amount of secondary output comes about as a result of the turns around the toroid.

[74turns gives 89 volts and 21turns gives 25volts using the same transistor at the same time. ]

Also, before I did any fiddling, the input voltage of 1.2v battery gives secondary voltage of 89v, but with a 33 ohm resistor that same secondary voltage becomes 35v.
At the same time at the transistor:
C-E junction is
15v with no resistor and
10v with a 33 ohm resistor.

The bedini which is using a lot of flyback for feedback, recommends the neon to preserve the transistor.

Mostly I will back out, because I do not know about using flyback to feedback into the system.

Thanks for your reply.
It reminded me of my own decrease by using the input resistor.

Do you know how many volts you are achieving in the flyback on yours? I know you are doing this without a scope, so I am wondering.

jeanna

Jeanna

I do not know much about the voltages that I have worked with .

I try a coil ........if my array lights up better I keep using it ....if not I try another .

Just for clarity I do not use the words flyback and feedback for the same thing .
For me flyback is the pulse that is created when a magnetic field collapses ( back EMF )
WIth a simple JT secondary any flyback becomes the part of the output .

For me ........feedback is when I use a winding from a coil to return power to the battery .
At times I use normal inductors for flyback ..........Most of the time I use coils with more than one winding so I can use them for either flyback or feedback .

I tend to start using mostly flyback ..........but to much flyback will choke the circuit ...... so I start using the larger windings for feedback rather than flyback.

I think what happens when it gets near the point that the inductors start choking the circuit is that the pulse is flattened by the inductor ........ it is at least partly transformed into current .
So ........sometimes ...... the voltage goes down .....but still the LEDs get brighter .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on October 08, 2009, 02:14:07 PM

@Gary,
hmm,

Maybe it is time to make this new one into feedback.
I see that it is having that kind of effect anyway because some of the inductors which are really higher value than I was using seem to make the other lights get brighter while the ones directly involved are not gaining much if any brightness.

Thanks.

Even when it is frustrating, this is very interesting.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on October 08, 2009, 10:25:28 PM

Quote from: xee2 on October 07, 2009, 11:38:09 PM
@ resonanceman

If you have put a 2000 ohm resistor in series with your pot and you are still blowing out transistors then you have a lot more than 12 volts coming in. I can run a 2N3055 from 9 volts with a 1000 ohm base resistor with no problems. You should easily be able to run from 12 volts using a 2000 ohm base resistor.

Thanks Xee

I have been experimenting ...... I guess I have been using quite a bit less than 2000 ohms
I have been pushing the limits a little ........trying to light my LED array .

At least I have a good idea of a baseline now .
Thanks

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on October 08, 2009, 10:39:11 PM

Quote from: jeanna on October 08, 2009, 02:14:07 PM
@Gary,
hmm,

Maybe it is time to make this new one into feedback.
I see that it is having that kind of effect anyway because some of the inductors which are really higher value than I was using seem to make the other lights get brighter while the ones directly involved are not gaining much if any brightness.

Thanks.

Even when it is frustrating, this is very interesting.

jeanna

Jeanna

I remember running into that kind of thing .
At some point an inductor tends to choke the circuit .
Try a smaller inductor unless you want to choke the circuit a little .
A while back I made a circuit that lit my 90 LED array and a CFL .
At the moment I can't remember which one lit easier .......but I was able to bounce most of the power to the other one just by changing 1 wire .......and choking the brighter circuit a little .

Are some of your inductors JT coils?
If they have secondarys .......try connecting all the unused windings to a bridge ..........or the cap on a Jesus charger .
I also found that making a few coils with equal windings is helpful for feedback .
I have not decided the best design for a splitter ......they seem to work with just a few wraps ........and with 2 whole radio shack spools

I quite often used 2 splitters in my circuits .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on October 08, 2009, 11:12:46 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on October 08, 2009, 10:39:11 PM
Jeanna

I remember running into that kind of thing .
....
... .

Oh good.
I thought maybe you had.

I saw a really odd thing today.
I took scope then dmm measurements across the led.
I figured and was right that the dmm could read in that place.
BUT
The results were exactly the opposite of the lights.
The voltage difference across the brightest leds showed the lowest amount and the voltage difference across the 4 dim ones at the right end were the highest and matched the battery voltage. (which could be coincidence).
I have not touched this circuit for a couple of days. I just walk around it and poke at things.

Quote
Are some of your inductors JT coils?

Many of the ones I am using now are.

QuoteIf they have secondarys .......try connecting all the unused windings to a bridge ..........or the cap on a Jesus charger .

OK I will.
I thought of that, but I cannot get any reading from the scope or now the dmm. It would tell me if the meters are correct, and even if nothing more, that will help.

QuoteI also found that making a few coils with equal windings is helpful for feedback .

In a way this recent set of efforts started with that.
The filter with its unused other side kept staring at me.
I got next to nothing from it until I added the inductor toroid beyond - to the right- of it.

QuoteI have not decided the best design for a splitter ......they seem to work with just a few wraps ........and with 2 whole radio shack spools

What's a splitter?
I tried my red full spool to no greater advantage also.

Thanks for all the good experience and ideas.

jeanna

ADD
Actually, what I think I want to do is make an addition that is similar to the top end of the camera circuit.
I keep forgetting to study it when I am fresh...(which is not now ;D )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on October 09, 2009, 03:06:08 AM

Hi anyone, Can you light a 4watt 240VAC fluoro with high pulsed DC ???

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on October 09, 2009, 12:52:56 PM

Quote from: freepow on October 09, 2009, 03:06:08 AM
Hi anyone, Can you light a 4watt 240VAC fluoro with high pulsed DC ???

Yes. The voltage listed on tube does not matter when using JT. Usually a peak voltage out of JT of over 400 volts is needed to light tube.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on October 09, 2009, 04:12:57 PM

Quote from: xee2 on October 09, 2009, 12:52:56 PM
Yes. The voltage listed on tube does not matter when using JT. Usually a peak voltage out of JT of over 400 volts is needed to light tube.

xee is right for the most part but some coils can light a tube with a little less! Use xee circuit diagram and you will easily light a floro!!!

biggo toroid
some winds
3055 transistor
POT
PS
done ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on October 09, 2009, 08:22:33 PM

Quote from: jeanna on October 08, 2009, 11:12:46 PM
Oh good.
I thought maybe you had.

I saw a really odd thing today.
I took scope then dmm measurements across the led.
I figured and was right that the dmm could read in that place.
BUT
The results were exactly the opposite of the lights.
The voltage difference across the brightest leds showed the lowest amount and the voltage difference across the 4 dim ones at the right end were the highest and matched the battery voltage. (which could be coincidence).
I have not touched this circuit for a couple of days. I just walk around it and poke at things.Many of the ones I am using now are.OK I will.
I thought of that, but I cannot get any reading from the scope or now the dmm. It would tell me if the meters are correct, and even if nothing more, that will help.

In a way this recent set of efforts started with that.
The filter with its unused other side kept staring at me.
I got next to nothing from it until I added the inductor toroid beyond - to the right- of it.What's a splitter?
I tried my red full spool to no greater advantage also.

Thanks for all the good experience and ideas.

jeanna

ADD
Actually, what I think I want to do is make an addition that is similar to the top end of the camera circuit.
I keep forgetting to study it when I am fresh...(which is not now ;D )

Jeanna

I don't think what a meter says really has any meaning with these kinds of things .
I have lit up the same LED array with as little as 20 V indicated across the array ........and with as much as 250 V indicated .
I think it is more about the spikes than it is the voltage .

Maybe with a scope you will be able to see what is going on .

A splitter is something that I made to return more power to the batterys .

I have made a few inductoors with 2 equal windings ...... one winding is hooked in series with the secondary , for flyback .......the other is hooked in parallel for feedback .
A normal transformer or an isolation transformer can be used as a splitter .
The whole idea of a splitter is about sending about half the signal back to the battery .

gary

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on October 09, 2009, 09:45:03 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on October 09, 2009, 08:22:33 PM
..

Maybe with a scope you will be able to see what is going on .

The problem with the scope on these extended multiple inductor coils is that the scope introduces too much of its own and I believe changes the results.

What I am seeing is that the frequency which is going down but still fast is probably not what is causing the diminishment. I am seeing the waves widen out... a lot.

But, even so, one time the filter shows 7,7v and I can barely light a led the next time with more inductors elsewhere, the same 7.7 volts easily lights 3 leds. so, it appears that it is just fiddling that will get it to make more.

QuoteA splitter is something that I made to return more power to the batterys .

A normal transformer or an isolation transformer can be used as a splitter .
The whole idea of a splitter is about sending about half the signal back to the battery .

I see what you mean by splitter.That is what the filter is. It is an isolation transformer.

This makes sense.

Thank you.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on October 09, 2009, 10:49:48 PM

Quote from: jeanna on October 09, 2009, 09:45:03 PM

. I am seeing the waves widen out... a lot.

This is what I was thinking was going on .

The inductors absorb the spikes and sometimes turn them into current .

Quote

I see what you mean by splitter.That is what the filter is. It is an isolation transformer.

This makes sense.

Thank you.

jeanna

It can be an isolation transformer.......... but that does not mean that is has to be an isolation transformer. The important thing is that it has 2 windings .....one is used in secondary for flyback .....the other is used for feedback .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on October 09, 2009, 11:25:29 PM

Gary,
Yes, it could be the inductors that are smoothing the spikes, but I have seen that caps and LEDs will do this too, so I am hoping that the inductors will keep doing the good spikes.
I probably doesn't matter what is doing it, unless by recognizing the culprit, it could be avoided.

------

I went to walmart camping dept today.

the local substation was hit and the power was out all day. I needed some more propane, and while I was there I noticed quite a few led camping lights.

I wonder if the 6 volt fluorotube has a toroid or radioactive ballast in it?

I brought home a tent lamp which is a ring of 24 leds.
I think one or 2 people here have shown this.

It was easy to get apart but to my great dismay I found that all the leds are in parallel and the 4 AA powersource delivers 200mA.
Now, at first I thought no wonder these things stop working within 6 weeks.

I noticed a very tiny black thing soldered in line on the pos rail-ring. I believe it is a diode.

I wonder about this diode thing. In those 70 leds I bought last spring, the lights work fine with the ac wall line, but they are very dim with the secondary.
This ring light showed the same behavior.
It was terribly bright with 4 batteries, I shorted across various batteries and 3 AA's dropped the amps to 108mA which is still much too high for a led, but when I dropped it to 2 AA's it only drew 3.8mA which is very dim. It is OK, for area lighting, and more than a nightlight because there are 24 of them, but how did the amps draw diminish so much?

It was when I looked really close because of this question and I saw the very tiny black item with 270 printed on it, that I connected the dots to the string of leds.

These must also be diodes and their purpose must be to limit the amps somewhere, although this does not seem to be what it is doing.

I would love some help with this.
Is there any one who has any idea what is going on here?

The 2 circuits have in common that when a secondary with high voltage high frequency low amperage is connected, the lights are very dim.
I needed more than 250volts to light up the string and even then only half of it lit up.
In this ring, the secondary just makes a very dim light of all these leds.

The other thing is that the switch seems to make a stronger diminishing of the light.
I don't really want to destroy the switch until the last choice, if possible, but maybe it is the switch that drops the amperage from 108 to 3.8 with 1/3 the power.
I would have to think that 1/3 of the amps draw which would be 30mA would be perfect, so what gives here?

Any ideas?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on October 10, 2009, 06:29:25 AM

;D :) Thanks, I just lit my first ever small 240 VAC fluoro with 1-AA battery and a 3055 and two other small parts and a 1.5 inch toroid wound with 2,10 turn bif and (80-turn secondary actually connected to circuit), also I used a 1k pot to fine tune.

I have measured 315-316 Volts on this circuit, now my next experiment is to light a larger fluoro...say a
20 watter, but I will try and try to go to the upper limits of my 2n2222 to try to light small fluoro.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on October 10, 2009, 01:11:04 PM

Quote from: freepow on October 10, 2009, 06:29:25 AM
;D :) Thanks, I just lit my first ever small 240 VAC fluoro with 1-AA battery and a 3055 and two other small parts and a 1.5 inch toroid wound with 2,10 turn bif and (80-turn secondary actually connected to circuit), also I used a 1k pot to fine tune.

I have measured 315-316 Volts on this circuit, now my next experiment is to light a larger fluoro...say a
20 watter, but I will try and try to go to the upper limits of my 2n2222 to try to light small fluoro.

Great work Freepow

:)
You might try the core from a flyback transformer

The pictures are of a JT I made with a flyback transformer core .
I used 2 spools of the green radio shack wire and one spool of the copper colored wire .
For these pictures the green wires are in parallel .
The primary is MK2 1 and 3 wraps per side .

The extra coils are for flyback and feedback .
The difference between the pictures is one coil wired differently .
The CFL is 25 Watt
The transistor is a 3055
Maybe you can get it to work with a smaller transistor .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on October 10, 2009, 01:33:34 PM

Freepow

You might try making a Jesus Charger

I keep mine hooked up to my 3055 board all the time.

One of the things that i really like about the Jesus Charger is that it is a great way to connect feedback . I just connect all my feedback across the cap in the Jesus Charger .

The charger I use is Improvment 1

gary

Edit

I do not connect my Jesus Charger like in the diagram
I connect it directly across the battery .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on October 10, 2009, 02:05:04 PM

Quote from: freepow on October 10, 2009, 06:29:25 AM
my next experiment is to light a larger fluoro...say a
20 watter, but I will try and try to go to the upper limits of my 2n2222 to try to light small fluoro.

Most people have found that if the circuit will light the 4W tube it will also light a 20W tube.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on October 10, 2009, 02:52:46 PM

Quote from: jeanna on October 09, 2009, 11:25:29 PM
I noticed a very tiny black thing soldered in line on the pos rail-ring. I believe it is a diode.

I wonder about this diode thing. In those 70 leds I bought last spring, the lights work fine with the ac wall line, but they are very dim with the secondary.
This ring light showed the same behavior.
It was terribly bright with 4 batteries, I shorted across various batteries and 3 AA's dropped the amps to 108mA which is still much too high for a led, but when I dropped it to 2 AA's it only drew 3.8mA which is very dim. It is OK, for area lighting, and more than a nightlight because there are 24 of them, but how did the amps draw diminish so much?

It was when I looked really close because of this question and I saw the very tiny black item with 270 printed on it, that I connected the dots to the string of leds.

These must also be diodes and their purpose must be to limit the amps somewhere, although this does not seem to be what it is doing.

I would love some help with this.
Is there any one who has any idea what is going on here?

small surface mount components like that can be diodes, resistors or caps even. can you meter it with a diode tester to make sure it is?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on October 10, 2009, 04:58:45 PM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 10, 2009, 02:52:46 PM
small surface mount components like that can be diodes, resistors or caps even. can you meter it with a diode tester to make sure it is?

I do not remember how to do what you suggested.
Here is what I did.
I put the dmm on diode mark... battery and switch are off.
The amount ends up at 28
on the ohms meter it also says 28

But, I only did this procedure once a long time ago, I am not too sure I did the right thing to test it.

Please advise, and thank you.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: DreamThinkBuild on October 10, 2009, 07:07:50 PM

Jeanna,

If the diode is on the positive rail it's most likely just a protection diode just in case the batteries are put in backwards. I've seen this in a couple of my solar lights I have taken apart.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on October 10, 2009, 08:32:47 PM

Hmm,
Thanks DTB, you are the 3rd person who has told me this.

I guess it is in the string for the same reason, but it is interesting how it kills the brightness of the leds.
If digital cameras didn't adjust for the light I could show you. It is a pale grey color from a blazing bright white.
And the same comparison is true for the string of leds which are intended for ac.

OK then,
I will short over the diodes and see what happens with a joule thief.
They are in parallel and I was wanting to make 4 clumps of leds in series, but maybe I will just see how it works as a parallel set of lights being run with a jt.
It only cost $6.88.
I like the shape. The ring does well inside a regular lamp shade and makes a good substitute for a bulb in a lamp. (But not if it only lasts 6 weeks which is what these very bright chinese things do.)
I might need to cut out the switch too.

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on October 10, 2009, 09:09:47 PM

Quote from: jeanna on October 10, 2009, 04:58:45 PM
I do not remember how to do what you suggested.
Here is what I did.
I put the dmm on diode mark... battery and switch are off.
The amount ends up at 28
on the ohms meter it also says 28

But, I only did this procedure once a long time ago, I am not too sure I did the right thing to test it.

Please advise, and thank you.

jeanna

testing in circuit can sometimes be problematic. albeit hard to replace the component if you remove it and change your mind. the thing that bothers me is the 270 on it. doesn't seem right for a diode to me. if it was a resistor, the 270 should mean 27 ohms, which matches your dmm measurement.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on October 11, 2009, 12:38:07 AM

I see. Thanks Wilby.
So do you think it would do the grey thing with the lights?
I will not remove but just jumper them. There are 6 or 8 of them altogether spaced around the ring circuit board that holds the lights and... yes the pos side only.

~~~~

@All,

Here is the newest joule thief with secondary video.
30 leds in series now!.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzhbsLBwc54 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzhbsLBwc54)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on October 11, 2009, 12:58:22 AM

Quote from: jeanna on October 11, 2009, 12:38:07 AM
I see. Thanks Wilby.
So do you think it would do the grey thing with the lights?
I will not remove but just jumper them. There are 6 or 8 of them altogether spaced around the ring circuit board that holds the lights and... yes the pos side only.

~~~~

@All,

Here is the newest joule thief with secondary video.
30 leds in series now!.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzhbsLBwc54 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzhbsLBwc54)

jeanna

if there are 6 or 8 of them i suspect them to be resistors. while i agree with the diode on the postive rail protection that other people have stated, i think in this instance it would be overkill of sorts, especially 6 or 8 of them :o. a led is a diode, connecting the batteries incorrectly should not blow them.
are there other components? any surface mount transistors? they would usually have 3 solder 'tabs'.

nice video!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on October 11, 2009, 12:54:07 PM

Quote from: jeanna on October 09, 2009, 11:25:29 PM
Gary,
Yes, it could be the inductors that are smoothing the spikes, but I have seen that caps and LEDs will do this too, so I am hoping that the inductors will keep doing the good spikes.
I probably doesn't matter what is doing it, unless by recognizing the culprit, it could be avoided.

------

I went to walmart camping dept today.

the local substation was hit and the power was out all day. I needed some more propane, and while I was there I noticed quite a few led camping lights.

I wonder if the 6 volt fluorotube has a toroid or radioactive ballast in it?

I brought home a tent lamp which is a ring of 24 leds.
I think one or 2 people here have shown this.

It was easy to get apart but to my great dismay I found that all the leds are in parallel and the 4 AA powersource delivers 200mA.
Now, at first I thought no wonder these things stop working within 6 weeks.

I noticed a very tiny black thing soldered in line on the pos rail-ring. I believe it is a diode.

I wonder about this diode thing. In those 70 leds I bought last spring, the lights work fine with the ac wall line, but they are very dim with the secondary.
This ring light showed the same behavior.
It was terribly bright with 4 batteries, I shorted across various batteries and 3 AA's dropped the amps to 108mA which is still much too high for a led, but when I dropped it to 2 AA's it only drew 3.8mA which is very dim. It is OK, for area lighting, and more than a nightlight because there are 24 of them, but how did the amps draw diminish so much?

It was when I looked really close because of this question and I saw the very tiny black item with 270 printed on it, that I connected the dots to the string of leds.

These must also be diodes and their purpose must be to limit the amps somewhere, although this does not seem to be what it is doing.

I would love some help with this.
Is there any one who has any idea what is going on here?

The 2 circuits have in common that when a secondary with high voltage high frequency low amperage is connected, the lights are very dim.
I needed more than 250volts to light up the string and even then only half of it lit up.
In this ring, the secondary just makes a very dim light of all these leds.

The other thing is that the switch seems to make a stronger diminishing of the light.
I don't really want to destroy the switch until the last choice, if possible, but maybe it is the switch that drops the amperage from 108 to 3.8 with 1/3 the power.
I would have to think that 1/3 of the amps draw which would be 30mA would be perfect, so what gives here?

Any ideas?

thank you,

jeanna

He Jeanna . I like those ring 24 led lamp . They are the perfect candidate for converting to a JT . If you notice that's 6 volts = 4 AA batteries . They draw 200 ma . the current supplied is a fraction of a single battery because it decreases as you put battery's in series and the voltage increases . They go dead winthin 24 hours and you have 4 dead batteries . NOW convert it over to a Singe battery . same light and if you play you cards right get the draw below 10 milliamps and you can see how long a single 1800 milliamp 1.5 volt battery will last . A long time . This is the principal behind the E-light . The Difference Of Coarse is i dont use 2n3055's or 2n3904 . I can hint that there are Barium tanilate /germanium on the market from one supplier being manufactured . they produce there own voltage . Also Mine Charger there own battery plus they charge another . I really hope there is no animosity between us as there is with greginthewoods . I really respect you all so please don't have a grudge on me for looking after My daughter when 'm gone . Which wont be long . I wish i had a faster connection and more time .
Anyways i know you hate tearing up good stuff but i got used to it when i see the advantages of it .

Love and peace to you all and happy Experimenting .

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on October 11, 2009, 01:11:15 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on October 11, 2009, 12:54:07 PM
the current supplied is a fraction of a single battery because it decreases as you put batterys in series and the voltage increases .

this is not correct. series connection of batteries will not decrease the current supplied or the current available. ie: one 1800mah AA battery has 1800mah. four 1800mah AA batteries in series is still 1800mah.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on October 11, 2009, 01:24:30 PM

Nieves your curcuits are interesting to me, i particularly like the alternative you did to a joule thief using inductors instead of torriods. however i am looking to modify it a bit.

it seems to me that the spikes greated in the inductor are going to return to the inductor without passing through the battery because there is no return path to the coil behind the battery and its the shortest easiest path for the current to return to the source. therefore i dont see the spikes having much if any effect on the battery. instead perhaps a part should be added above the battery between the diod and return to the coil to prevent "voltage spikes" from returning to the source prematurely?

one question that i have not had answered to my satisfaction yet is the behavior of the inductors. if we move the inductor below the capacitor to just above the battery will it restrict the sudden changes? and if a diode is also added to allow the current to pass from the negative of the battery to the positive side (pass the inductor) will it allow these spikes to pass through the battery and no where else?

i suppose my real question to this whole mess is, does a inductor absorb spikes? or prevent them from passing? i need a part that will force a sudden change in voltage to take an alternate path through the battery.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on October 11, 2009, 03:20:23 PM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 11, 2009, 01:11:15 PM
this is not correct. series connection of batteries will not decrease the current supplied or the current available. ie: one 1800mah AA battery has 1800mah. four 1800mah AA batteries in series is still 1800mah.

Spot on WilbyInebriated, if we are to help others in their quests with experimenting then please check the facts before replying or at least leave comments open for further thoughts. Identical cells in parallel will offer more current capacity_the voltage remains the same, while as cells are added in series the voltage increases_ but the same current passes through the cells and doesn't increase. If these camping light Led's are connected in parallel as Jeanna suggests, then each led shares the same available voltage but each draws it's own operating current. Example... 24 led's wired in parallel each require 20Ma's = total current of 480mA and if they are connected directly across 4 x AA batteries that's 6volts each.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on October 11, 2009, 03:51:31 PM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 11, 2009, 01:11:15 PM
this is not correct. series connection of batteries will not decrease the current supplied or the current available. ie: one 1800mah AA battery has 1800mah. four 1800mah AA batteries in series is still 1800mah.

Hi wilby and thanks for the correction . .what i ment was the current does not increase the volts do in series so you actually dont get longer run current .I should have said in 4 batteries rather than a single . 6 volts in Jeanna's light is probably ran through a resistor rather than i diode i suspect as 6 volts is a lot for a 4 volt led. I think the blob you refer to is a resistor jeanna to at least limit the current .On mine it had a normal 1/4 watt resistor so thats what it is . Still I would jump on converting it cause there is lots of room in them for all sizes of ferrite .
gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on October 11, 2009, 04:25:39 PM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 11, 2009, 12:58:22 AM

are there other components? any surface mount transistors? they would usually have 3 solder 'tabs'.

nice video!

Thanks,

I did not see anything else. There is a screw holding it down in 4 places but I checked that to see if it had a double use and I see nothing. These things are on each side of a bridged break.
It is sunny and perhaps I can take a hi res pic and crop it small for you to see.

jeanna
add:
Yes crowclaw and gadget,

Here is the reason I posted this.
I did use a very powerful secondary on these 24.
zebraK has over 80 turns and that makes it just under 100 volts, but the lights were a dull grey. I was a little afraid I would blow them since they are really only one led.
~~~

I saw this last year when I tried in vain to get the string o leds to light up.

I can't remember what it took, but it was over 240v to light only half of the string and they were this same grey. I took it apart which took a lot of doing because the plastic wires and light holders were formed around the lights.
I found 2 diodes at the plug ends of the 72 lights. So, one was for each half and my secondary could only turn on one half. Switching wires reversed the polarity and the other half of the lights went on.
But in either case they were a dull grey.

So, with this history, I looked closer at the ring holding the 24 leds and saw 8 of these tiny black square things.
They have the color and shine characteristics of a diode, but of course could be resistors.

I think a pic is in order.
Thanks for all the help.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on October 11, 2009, 04:42:44 PM

Quote from: jeanna on October 11, 2009, 04:25:39 PM
Thanks,

I did not see anything else. There is a screw holding it down in 4 places but I checked that to see if it had a double use and I see nothing. These things are on each side of a bridged break.
It is sunny and perhaps I can take a hi res pic and crop it small for you to see.

jeanna
add:
Yes crowclaw and gadget,

Here is the reason I posted this.
I did use a very powerful secondary on these 24.
zebraK has over 80 turns and that makes it just under 100 volts, but the lights were a dull grey. I was a little afraid I would blow them since they are really only one led.
~~~

I saw this last year when I tried in vain to get the string o leds to light up.

I can't remember what it took, but it was over 240v to light only half of the string and they were this same grey. I took it apart which took a lot of doing because the plastic wires and light holders were formed around the lights.
I found 2 diodes at the plug ends of the 72 lights. So, one was for each half and my secondary could only turn on one half. Switching wires reversed the polarity and the other half of the lights went on.
But in either case they were a dull grey.

So, with this history, I looked closer at the ring holding the 24 leds and saw 8 of these tiny black square things.
They have the color and shine characteristics of a diode, but of course could be resistors.

I think a pic is in order.
Thanks for all the help.

Well if you are using pure ac then you need to reverse the connection to the LEDS . one way is dull the other BRIGHT BRIGHT . At least these are the conclusions i came to on any Number of white leds also the resistors are butting you circuit on your Very powerful JT . Question . Does this very powerJt light 20 leds bright . then if yes jump the resistors on your new light ..be careful .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on October 11, 2009, 04:50:44 PM

hey gadget, i forgot to say good to see you again!
and any chance on hinting at the part number for the barium/germanium component?
i might be willing to trade a hint on how to get rid of the battery... ;)

thanks crowclaw, you said it much clearer than i did.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on October 11, 2009, 05:14:39 PM

OK gang, have a look.
I bought this to make it work and at $6.88 I am not afraid. In any case experience has shown me that these overly bright led lamps from china rarely last longer than 6 weeks, so what's to lose??
thank you,
jeanna

@gadget

QuoteWell if you are using pure ac then you need to reverse the connection to the LEDS . one way is dull the other BRIGHT BRIGHT . At least these are the conclusions i came to on any Number of white leds also the resistors are butting you circuit on your Very powerful JT . Question . Does this very powerJt light 20 leds bright . then if yes jump the resistors on your new light ..be careful .

The string o leds was set up that way for normal ac.
My secondary had some polarity, but I am trying to describe something different.
It has a grey color.
I want to say that is is suddenly more off than on to produce this frey color.
It is different from a lower battery, somehow.
And I have already jumped one and will continue.
This is informing me about the nature of inductors etc, therefore all my questions... sorry.
thank you,
jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on October 11, 2009, 05:31:51 PM

I just found something else!
The inside rail is the pos side.

After 3 leds there is a break in the trace on the leds at the pos rail.

here. Look in the upper half of the picture.

So, I think this means I have effectively 6 leds and not one... right?
thanks,
j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: protonmom on October 11, 2009, 07:09:25 PM

Excuse me for cutting in here for a moment. I need to ask a "stupid" question. Those three instant cameras I had taken apart sat arouind for a while. I FINALLY decided to "short" the batties and remove them so as to get started on my first joule thief. Well, I tried all three batteries, and NOTHING! No short, no arc, nada! Do the batteries lose their charge after a while? Here I was, all prepared to be shocked, and dreading it, and Nothing! So I was worried that perhaps I am doing it wrong, but how wrong can I be? I shorted across the two terminals of the battery with an insulated screwdriver, just as told. I am assuming the three just simply lost their charge, but I would like to know for sure. Again, sorry if this sounds stupid, but remember I am just starting out in any kind of electronics. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: IotaYodi on October 11, 2009, 08:16:32 PM

QuoteWell, I tried all three batteries

Dont you mean capacitors? Capacitors do lose there charge over time. If you shorted out the capacitors already then check them with a meter set on dc volts.
Check the voltage rating on the capacitors to determine what setting the meter should be on.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on October 11, 2009, 08:52:10 PM

Quote from: protonmom on October 11, 2009, 07:09:25 PM
.... I FINALLY decided to "short" the batties and remove them so as to get started on my first joule thief.
... but remember I am just starting out in any kind of electronics. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks

Hi protonmom,
I think you are talking about the capacitor.
You would need to charge the capacitor first by pushing the charge up button... ... then the red or white 'ready to flash' light would go on... ... then you could take your pic and the flash would be charged.
Well overcharged.
And they don't lose it all when they are used hence all the fal-de-rol about shorting the cap before you start.

Mine were never charged when I got them either.
(I did charge them with the button and discharged them with a screwdriver. And then I did it again cuz it was fun until I saw the charred spot etc. ;) )

Carry on.
You are doing fine.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 11, 2009, 10:48:36 PM

@ protonmom:

ALL of my cameras were charged when I opened them. These were new, right out of the box and I never turned anything on or hit the flash button at all. I partially melted a jeweler's screwdriver shorting one of them. Too bad it did not have an insulated handle or I would not have burned my finger tips. (Got a heck of a shock too!) I have made 4 Fuji JT's thus far and, as I said, all of those caps were charged up to some degree, enough to hurt. But, as stated, caps do discharge over time but, I have also read of caps that have been shorted charging up over time by themselves. Some suspect RF is doing this. Best rule is to be careful and treat all caps like they are fully charged.

@ Jeanna:

Great video!!!

@ Gadget:

Good to hear from you man, I hope all is well with you.

@Wilby:

Great to see you too.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on October 12, 2009, 01:05:00 AM

hi bill

@all, i thought i would post this here since it never generates much interest when i post in his old thread here on ou.com. maybe it will interest some here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozslp_sBE1Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5svqtYt3FU

i know i have pimped this before but it is worth mentioning again.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on October 12, 2009, 07:16:44 AM

@ WilbyInebriated

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 12, 2009, 01:05:00 AM
i know i have pimped this before but it is worth mentioning again.

Thanks for the post. Did you make the video? I find the wireless coupling very interesting. What thread is this being posted in?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: protonmom on October 12, 2009, 08:47:32 AM

:-[ Yes!! Capacitor, NOT battery! Sheesh. I don't know why you all put up with me. One of these days I will get all my words straight! :-[
I realise, now, that most of you were using NEW cameras, and not the used ones. But I will also continue shorting them all just in case. I don't plan to make ONLY jts with all those cameras. I don't know WHAT I plan to do with them all, but I CAN experiment with them. Who knows what I may come up with? Thank you to all of you for your replies.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on October 12, 2009, 12:38:26 PM

Quote from: xee2 on October 12, 2009, 07:16:44 AM
@ WilbyInebriated

Thanks for the post. Did you make the video? I find the wireless coupling very interesting. What thread is this being posted in?

nope, not my video, but i have SEC circuits that do the same.
i was posting updates in doc stifflers thread, since he left this forum for numerous reasons. i find the wireless coupling interesting too. however, i find less than a watt input for more than three watts output even more interesting ;) the battery flip flop light is interesting in its own right as well.

check energeticforum.com look for the 'high voltage from thin air' thread.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on October 13, 2009, 02:20:26 AM

Does any one know what the limit is for a joule thief, can you light an older 40 or 60 or 70 watt globe...the ones that have been replaced by the newer fluoro's ???

Also if I can light a 4 watt fluro tube, will I be able to light a 20 watter with full brightness ????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on October 13, 2009, 09:49:42 AM

I would say most of the time you won't get a tube to full brightness! LED's are the most effective!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 13, 2009, 10:36:35 AM

Quote from: stprue on October 13, 2009, 09:49:42 AM
I would say most of the time you won't get a tube to full brightness! LED's are the most effective!

I agree.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on October 13, 2009, 06:49:31 PM

there are 2 parts shown in read one is a inductor and the other a diode, those are the additions i have made to a already presented curcuit by another member.

my question is rather do you think the inductor will prevent the spikes from traveling the normal path and force them through the battery? or would another part be better suited for this setup? perhaps a different setup in all?

one inductor capacitor and resistor is needed to turn the transistor off and on. the other 3 inductors and diodes will be additional parts only needed to produce the relevant energy spike and with any luck charge the battery (more likely to just desulfate and rundown the battery)

any ideas or suggestions? comments?

im posting this here because i believe this is where i got it origionally and it seems to be funded on some basic principles of the joule thief.

thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on October 14, 2009, 06:03:10 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on October 13, 2009, 06:49:31 PM
there are 2 parts shown in read one is a inductor and the other a diode, those are the additions i have made to a already presented curcuit by another member.

my question is rather do you think the inductor will prevent the spikes from traveling the normal path and force them through the battery? or would another part be better suited for this setup? perhaps a different setup in all?

one inductor capacitor and resistor is needed to turn the transistor off and on. the other 3 inductors and diodes will be additional parts only needed to produce the relevant energy spike and with any luck charge the battery (more likely to just desulfate and rundown the battery)

any ideas or suggestions? comments?

im posting this here because i believe this is where i got it origionally and it seems to be funded on some basic principles of the joule thief.

thanks

Artic_Knight

From my experience I would have to say that your additions will create a flyback pulse that will go back to the battery .......IF the inductor you choose is not to large .

If you choose an inductor that it to large it will choke the circuit and you probably will end up with less than 1 V

If you choose the right inductor will it charge up your battery .
One inductor .......... No .
I have got to a state of powering a small load and charging a battery for a while .
The problem seems to be that the circuit seems to be built around a natural resonance at that particular power or voltate .
As the battery charges the circuit drifts out of resonance . ......and the battery discharges
I can keep it charging by simply adjusting a pot every few hours ..... but I don;t have a simple easy way to automate the adjustments .

It usually takes a string of 7to 9 inductors to reach the self charging state .
Most of those inductors have 2 windings, one of the windings is used for making flyback .......the other for feedback directlly to the batttery .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 14, 2009, 07:26:09 PM

@ Gary:

I understand what you are saying about when the battery state changes, it alters the circuit and it moves out of resonance. This make sense. However, what if you charged to a supercap, a large one, do you think the charge state of the supercap would alter the resonance the same as the battery? Or at all? If it doesn't, or if the effects of charge state is much less using the supercap, you could charge the large cap, or caps, and then periodically dump the full supercap into a battery which would otherwise be isolated from the circuit. This could be done fairly easily in an automatic manner but, I would not waste time on designing that unless/until you find that the supercaps keep the resonance of your circuit in tune despite the charge state.

Just a thought as I was thinking along these line with my Bedini experiments. I have not pursued this at all yet.

What do you think?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on October 14, 2009, 08:12:41 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on October 14, 2009, 07:26:09 PM
@ Gary:

I understand what you are saying about when the battery state changes, it alters the circuit and it moves out of resonance. This make sense. However, what if you charged to a supercap, a large one, do you think the charge state of the supercap would alter the resonance the same as the battery? Or at all? If it doesn't, or if the effects of charge state is much less using the supercap, you could charge the large cap, or caps, and then periodically dump the full supercap into a battery which would otherwise be isolated from the circuit. This could be done fairly easily in an automatic manner but, I would not waste time on designing that unless/until you find that the supercaps keep the resonance of your circuit in tune despite the charge state.

Just a thought as I was thinking along these line with my Bedini experiments. I have not pursued this at all yet.

What do you think?

Bill

Bill

I have not done much with caps .... I have tried to use a cap a few times to see if I could remove the battery once I got to the self charging state .
IN each attempt the circuit went off pretty quick .

I think that the chemical reaction within a battery acts as a buffer .
With a cap .....no matter how big it is .......if you take a pulse out .....your next pulse is going to be smaller .

I have been thinking of ways around the resonance thing .
One thing I have been thinking of it having several levels .
Normal running might be at a certain voltage ..........but if you draw more power .....the voltage drops down into the resonance range of another JT ......or 2

The only way that I can think of to build this kind of layered system is to use a very accurate power supply that can deliver a specific current at different voltages .

I guess I should look into making a wall powered self charging JT ....... if it stays in resonance it will validate a few of my theory's

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on October 14, 2009, 08:34:25 PM

@gary,
Wouldn't your system stay reasonably tuned if you had a few batteries in parallel?

I have a few hours to play with any circuits when I use a AAA, but when I change them to AA with 4x the mAH's, the circuit changes very little for days.

In fact it is a part of my thoughts for future strategy.

A pair of D cells or a bunch of AA in parallel would light up my fluoro from the camera circuit for 4-8 hours without further modifications.

Can't this work for all of us in some way?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on October 14, 2009, 09:13:54 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on October 14, 2009, 08:12:41 PM
Bill

I have not done much with caps .... I have tried to use a cap a few times to see if I could remove the battery once I got to the self charging state .
IN each attempt the circuit went off pretty quick .

I think that the chemical reaction within a battery acts as a buffer .
With a cap .....no matter how big it is .......if you take a pulse out .....your next pulse is going to be smaller .

I have been thinking of ways around the resonance thing .
One thing I have been thinking of it having several levels .
Normal running might be at a certain voltage ..........but if you draw more power .....the voltage drops down into the resonance range of another JT ......or 2

The only way that I can think of to build this kind of layered system is to use a very accurate power supply that can deliver a specific current at different voltages .

I guess I should look into making a wall powered self charging JT ....... if it stays in resonance it will validate a few of my theory's

gary

Bill

I had an idea that might make caps or even batterys more buffered .

It involves connecting the cap or battery directly to a large depletion-type MOSFET.
The gate of this MOSFET would have a cap connected to it .
The gate cap would be connected to a diode or bridge .
The diode would be connected to an extra winding on the toroid .

This extra winding on the toroid should not take much power to run .
It is not exactly the JT circuit ..........but it will represent what is going on with the JT.
It should only provide enough power to get the cap charged to the working voltage of the MOSFET .
If you want more buffering ........ add more capacitance to the gate .

In short .......as the JT works harder ....... more power is induced in the extra winding ......the gate cap charges to a higher voltage ......and causes the MOSFET to increase in resistance .
When the JT is working less hard the gate voltage will drop and cause the MOSFET to decrease in resistance

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on October 14, 2009, 09:26:15 PM

Quote from: jeanna on October 14, 2009, 08:34:25 PM

In fact it is a part of my thoughts for future strategy.

A pair of D cells or a bunch of AA in parallel would light up my fluoro from the camera circuit for 4-8 hours without further modifications.

Can't this work for all of us in some way?

jeanna

Jeanna

I agree ...... larger batterys should greatly help the problem .
That is part of the reason I have been working on a 12 V system .
Another reason is with the right cores .......12V should provide much more power .

I have not had much time for expermenting lately ......
I did get a couple TIP3055s and I am looking forward to seeing how long it takes to fry them .

:)

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 14, 2009, 10:14:13 PM

Gary:

That sounds interesting. If you use supercaps though, I don't think you need the buffering. I can run a Bedini motor off of nothing but a single supercap. It will run for a very long time. Now, you are working on a 12 volt system and I don't know of any supercaps made for that voltage. Mine are all either 2.3 or 2.7 volts. Perhaps you could use several in series to get 12 volts? I don't really know.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on October 14, 2009, 11:15:50 PM

I have been thinking about this problem, because sooner or later we may all get into this spot, or close to it.

What I am wondering is if your transistor is on (off) at the wrong time?

It may be that rigging the circuit up so that it self recharges, throws off the timing of the transistor and when it is usually safe, suddenly, it is not.

It may be the same reason jesus' expensive components got fried too.
I have plenty of high spikes, but it is impossible for them to touch the transistor, and you and jesus and bedini etc, are all introducing the spikes to the transistor area.
Bedini uses a neon across the emitter/collector (I think) so that it will flash there and not fry the transistor. I'll bet he did-in a lot of transistors to learn that trick.

Just some thoughts.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on October 14, 2009, 11:22:02 PM

bedini motors and such from what i have seen in and of themselfs are flawed all these systems are flawed. but they all seem to center around magnetism and the mystery of that magnetism combined with the lure of free energy from magnets seemingly limitless power draws us in to believe that through magnetism there is free energy.

what i have shown to myself thus far is that magnetism and electricity are not the same, they are brothers but able to go their seperate ways, if you take a coil for instance and create a magnetic field the electricity creating that magnetic field continues to pass through slowed down but not stopped. its still there to do work! but instead bedini and others seem to let it pass wastefully and focus on the magnetic current left behind like it has amassed a greater energy which it hasnt. the potential is there, magnetism comes from a infinite source which the electricity makes happen.

what will one day improve efficiencies and make possible free energy will be if we can find a way to recycle electricity. use it more than once. imagine if a electric current could be harnessed to create multiple magnetic fields over and over? would we find unity? over unity? it would take electrical recycling to do so.

there are of course other possibilities. if you have followed the HHO then you by now must have realized that the burning of HHO in a engine is producing more energy than the cost to split it! this is made obvious by some self runners shown on youtube and the usual sources. this would lead one to believe that perhaps the electric current used correctly could also enhance a battery, perhaps bedini has found something that makes charging more efficient but has he found even unity? the voltage is there, but what of the amperage?
im sure in time we may also find a battery equivalent of the HHO cell.

thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on October 14, 2009, 11:36:51 PM

Quote from: jeanna on October 14, 2009, 11:15:50 PM
I have been thinking about this problem, because sooner or later we may all get into this spot, or close to it.

What I am wondering is if your transistor is on (off) at the wrong time?

It may be that rigging the circuit up so that it self recharges, throws off the timing of the transistor and when it is usually safe, suddenly, it is not.

It may be the same reason jesus' expensive components got fried too.
I have plenty of high spikes, but it is impossible for them to touch the transistor, and you and jesus and bedini etc, are all introducing the spikes to the transistor area.
Bedini uses a neon across the emitter/collector (I think) so that it will flash there and not fry the transistor. I'll bet he did-in a lot of transistors to learn that trick.

Just some thoughts.

jeanna

like maybe the circuit has a hard wired resonant frequency but needs a flexible one? a circuit designed to change its frequency as the environment (circuit) changes? one that would need the resistance of the battery to set the resonance?

the more you work some clays the softer they become thus requiring a different amount of work. or theres no amperage to the voltage and your losing potiential work. more answers bring more questions.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on October 15, 2009, 12:33:51 PM

@ak and others

I have posted a document made on this discovery a while back now we are starting to get confirmation.

This is a real interesting read.

http://www.disclose.tv/frameset.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Ffeeds.sciencedaily.com%2F~r%2Fsciencedaily%2F~3%2F79GuHBdhj4c%2F091015085916.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8307804.stm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 15, 2009, 01:02:29 PM

MK1:

Wow man, that is a great article! Who knows where this might lead? Thanks for posting this.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on October 15, 2009, 04:20:58 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on October 14, 2009, 10:14:13 PM
Gary:

That sounds interesting. If you use supercaps though, I don't think you need the buffering. I can run a Bedini motor off of nothing but a single supercap. It will run for a very long time. Now, you are working on a 12 volt system and I don't know of any supercaps made for that voltage. Mine are all either 2.3 or 2.7 volts. Perhaps you could use several in series to get 12 volts? I don't really know.

Bill

Bill

I hope you are right ......and a super cap will run a JT .
Personally I don't think it will work .
A Bedini is a completely different animal.
The self charging circuits seem to be based on resonance ..... they are completely dependent on being balanced .
Once something changes that balance the self charging state vanishes .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 16, 2009, 05:32:56 PM

Gary:

Here is a video of me running a Bedini off of a supercap:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rauOlhNK0iY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rauOlhNK0iY)

The supercap was charged via my EER (earth battery) but this circuit is the self charging Bedini as modified by Jonny Davro. The cool thing about his design is that you can run many many satellite rotors from the same coil and you can place pick-up coils near each rotor for additional output beyond the back emf from the bifilar coil. Check Jonny's topic here and some of his videos, it is wild.

In this video, I am charging a 9 volt battery from the 2.7 volt supercap (650 Farad) with the standard Bedini circuit.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on October 16, 2009, 07:15:40 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on October 16, 2009, 05:32:56 PM
Gary:

Here is a video of me running a Bedini off of a supercap:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rauOlhNK0iY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rauOlhNK0iY)

The supercap was charged via my EER (earth battery) but this circuit is the self charging Bedini as modified by Jonny Davro. The cool thing about his design is that you can run many many satellite rotors from the same coil and you can place pick-up coils near each rotor for additional output beyond the back emf from the bifilar coil. Check Jonny's topic here and some of his videos, it is wild.

In this video, I am charging a 9 volt battery from the 2.7 volt supercap (650 Farad) with the standard Bedini circuit.

Bill

Bill

Sorry ......my connection is to slow to watch videos

I have finally got my 12 V system going
It has been running my 90 LED array for several hours ......
The TIP2055 is running cool ...... barely warm to the touch . That is what I wanted.

Looks like I am close to self charging .

With a large battery it is difficult to tell for sure if it is actually charging or just recycling some of its energy .
I guess only time will tell

gary

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on October 19, 2009, 12:13:34 PM

I have been playing with my 12 V circuit.
It is like a coompletely different animal compared to the 1.5 V circuit .
Some of my coils I have not been able to get to work at all .
Some of them work but not as well as with 1.5V.
My bi-metal primary works much better with 12V ......but it gets pretty warm .

I have been using the TIP3055 . It is not quite as powerful as the 2N3055 but I think it is quite a bit tougher . The way I have my charger set up ......if I turn off the switch on my battery but forget to unplug the charger ....I will have about 108V
Yesterday I made the mistake of connecting the board when the battery was off . I saw a spark ..... and realized what I did . My TIP2033 is still OK. One spark was all it took to kill my 2n3055 before .

I have to order more toroids before I can explore some of the ideas I have for the 12 V circuit .

Is anyone expermenting with feedback ?
I was using a flyback transformer as a feedback coil .
I hooked the output of my secondary through the HV coil of the flyback transformer .
I found that 5 of the terminals on the bottom were useful for feecback .... one of them was high enough voltage to light up another LED array.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on October 20, 2009, 10:18:59 AM

:) Hello, I'm finally back !
Question... If I am running a 285,000 MCD LED rated at (3 volts, 100 ma) from 3volt battery source,
Could I with that 100 ma current running through the LED...charge another 3 volt battery, just like its self recharging, Then when the first battery is flat, switch the batterys over and start again ????
I heard that the LED is not using up the 100 ma, its just going through it !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on October 20, 2009, 10:21:05 AM

:)Me again !
Also I strung up a 90 foot long wire outside for an antenna, its about 6-7 feet off the ground, also a nice galv-iron pipe in the ground for a good ground connection, I have the antenna comming inside also the ground pipe connected seperatly comming inside also...
I connected the antenna to the (+) input of a simple joule thief, then the ground pipe connection to the
(-) input of the simple joule thief, and to my surprise I am getting just over
3 volts AC, just over 2.5 volts DC, and only 3.14 ma. Its free power but not sure how to raise the current higher so I can light a LED ! Any ideas would be appreciated, thanks !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on October 20, 2009, 11:04:07 AM

Quote from: freepow on October 20, 2009, 10:21:05 AM
:)Me again !
Also I strung up a 90 foot long wire outside for an antenna, its about 6-7 feet off the ground, also a nice galv-iron pipe in the ground for a good ground connection, I have the antenna comming inside also the ground pipe connected seperatly comming inside also...
I connected the antenna to the (+) input of a simple joule thief, then the ground pipe connection to the
(-) input of the simple joule thief, and to my surprise I am getting just over
3 volts AC, just over 2.5 volts DC, and only 3.14 ma. Its free power but not sure how to raise the current higher so I can light a LED ! Any ideas would be appreciated, thanks !

Just use a germanium transistor. They will turn on with almost no ma!! I believe Pirate and Gadgetmall have done this already. ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on October 20, 2009, 12:12:51 PM

Quote from: freepow on October 20, 2009, 10:18:59 AM
:) Hello, I'm finally back !
Question... If I am running a 285,000 MCD LED rated at (3 volts, 100 ma) from 3volt battery source,
Could I with that 100 ma current running through the LED...charge another 3 volt battery, just like its self recharging, Then when the first battery is flat, switch the batterys over and start again ????
I heard that the LED is not using up the 100 ma, its just going through it !

Freepow

I believe that Gadgit has done that

I have came close ......but I have been feeding the power back to the original battery

Do not put the LED in the original JT position.
Use secondarys for everything .

About your antenna collector
I have read that the higher the wire is the higher the voltage gets .
I believe that a longer wire will give you more power .

I have not expermented with that kind of system because I see no way to protect the system from lightning .
Power collectors are good ..........lightning collectors connected to your electronic stuff is not good .

:)

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on October 20, 2009, 08:48:27 PM

:)Thanks gary.

My 90 foot long, 6-7 foot high long wire antenna + my ground pipe connection gives me as follows...
5 volts (AC) and only .06 ma NIGHTIME measurement
6 volts (AC) and only .13 ma DAYTIME measurement

When i use this to power simple joule thief it measures as follows...
3.1 volts (AC) and 2.6 volts (DC) and 3.14 ma NIGHTIME measurement
3.6 volts (AC) and 2.9 volts (DC) and 3.45 ma DAYTIME measurement !

Why a higher voltage and current during daytime ???? Anybody know why ???????

Any way to raise current higher so i can light LED ????

This is free power that I am getting from this system ! Anyone tried this ????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on October 20, 2009, 10:01:10 PM

Quote from: freepow on October 20, 2009, 08:48:27 PM

Any way to raise current higher so i can light LED ????

This is free power that I am getting from this system ! Anyone tried this ????

A couple of years ago when we were doing probes in the ground and Bill was lighting a led and was not, I tried using a peizo buzzer because that will make a scratching sound - not a buzz- at these low amps. It is not a light, but there a bit of satisfaction from hearing the output.

Isn't it wonderful to get free power? even weefreepower?

try the buzzer. It is a nice thing to have in a pinch anyway. If you want to keep the neighbors out, you might even be able to rig it up to warn you using the EB... shades of stubblefield.

Freepow, you will find a lot of information about these kinds of energy from the earth if you go over to the 2 most active earth battery threads. They are always on the top, so it is easy to pick them out, so look at earth battery threads. I think you will like them a lot.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sm0ky2 on October 20, 2009, 10:41:33 PM

MOST THIEVENEST!!

just got done hooking up the 7-inch Thief.

a single AA by itself isnt enough to power this large coil,
but with a little assist from my smaller joule thief, i can power the coil and draw a load off its secondary. even while drawing a load of the smaller coil's secondary
made a shot of it in action.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9RgjAgSQOg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9RgjAgSQOg)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Yucca on October 21, 2009, 07:53:31 AM

Quote from: freepow on October 20, 2009, 08:48:27 PM
My 90 foot long, 6-7 foot high long wire antenna + my ground pipe connection gives me as follows...

Why a higher voltage and current during daytime ???? Anybody know why ???????

Keep up the research, great stuff!

I would have expected higher voltages at night if it was harvesting HF RF radio waves, but the fact that its stronger in the day leads me to believe you might be picking up 50Hz, the grid currents are larger in the day. Your street will probably have subteranean lines feeding all the houses, when they pull more then more is radiated from the wires. Do you notice the highest point being in the early evening when dinners are being cooked and TVs and computers are on?

If you stick a 1n4148 diode on your wire end and then listen to that with a crystal earpiece then you will hear the 50 or 60Hz buzz if this is the main contributer.

edit:
your ground pipe connection might be giving quite a bit too if your house wiring is earthed to it. You could test that by making a seperate earth by burying a small bundle of bare copper wire. then check for potential betrween pipe earth and new seperate earth. My house ground (pipes) has quite a buzz on it, especially on the points furthest from the soil interface.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on October 21, 2009, 08:13:14 AM

:) Hi, I live in a country property in the hills, This is what I have got so far...
Day-1 daytime volts = 6, .13 ma
Day-1 night volts = 5 .07 ma

Day-2 daytime volts = 6 .13 ma
Day-2 evening volts = 5.5 .07 ma
Day-2 night volts = 5 .04 ma

My ground pipe is a galv-iron pipe placed in ground completely seperate from the house, as I put it in my self.

Any comments ????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on October 21, 2009, 02:19:46 PM

Quote from: freepow on October 21, 2009, 08:13:14 AM
:) Hi, I live in a country property in the hills, This is what I have got so far...
Day-1 daytime volts = 6, .13 ma
Day-1 night volts = 5 .07 ma

Day-2 daytime volts = 6 .13 ma
Day-2 evening volts = 5.5 .07 ma
Day-2 night volts = 5 .04 ma

My ground pipe is a galv-iron pipe placed in ground completely seperate from the house, as I put it in my self.

Any comments ????

Freepow

Some of Teslas work was based on the idea that the ionosphere is charged and the earth is the opposite charge. If this is true then your wire might be acting like a capacitor.
One of Teslas patents was about an energy collector that was mostly metal plates suspended above the ground . I remember that the plates were insulated and he said the higher they are the better they work .
There was several variations on the patent I believe that they all had a coil and a cap tuned for resonance .

Do you have some sheet metal laying around ?
A piece of sheet metal placed horizontal above the ground ( connected to your wire ) ( well insulated from the ground ) as high as possible may give you more power .

If I remember right Tesla said that the setup in this patent produced energy all the time ........but more in the daytime .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on October 21, 2009, 02:56:58 PM

@ freepow

Quote from: freepow on October 21, 2009, 08:13:14 AM
:) Hi, I live in a country property in the hills, This is what I have got so far...
Day-1 daytime volts = 6, .13 ma
Day-1 night volts = 5 .07 ma

Day-2 daytime volts = 6 .13 ma
Day-2 evening volts = 5.5 .07 ma
Day-2 night volts = 5 .04 ma

My ground pipe is a galv-iron pipe placed in ground completely seperate from the house, as I put it in my self.

Any comments ????

How are you measuring the voltage? Is it the voltage between your antenna and the ground pipe? I have never seen an antenna put out that much voltage. That is an amazing result.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on October 21, 2009, 04:45:47 PM

It is possible xee, my TPU where I can't hook it up right will still put out static 7-12vdc with a specific set up...a wrong set up of course! I have also seen antenna set-up putting out like 12-15 on youtube!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on October 21, 2009, 05:03:16 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on October 21, 2009, 02:19:46 PM
Freepow

Some of Teslas work was based on the idea that the ionosphere is charged and the earth is the opposite charge. If this is true then your wire might be acting like a capacitor.
One of Teslas patents was about an energy collector that was mostly metal plates suspended above the ground . I remember that the plates were insulated and he said the higher they are the better they work .
There was several variations on the patent I believe that they all had a coil and a cap tuned for resonance .

Do you have some sheet metal laying around ?
A piece of sheet metal placed horizontal above the ground ( connected to your wire ) ( well insulated from the ground ) as high as possible may give you more power .

If I remember right Tesla said that the setup in this patent produced energy all the time ........but more in the daytime .

gary

@ All.

Hi Guys, I find your work fascinating. I am an electronics engineer and have been experimenting on similar projects involving inductive power transfer. Just a word on suspended plates and antenna's. If you can suspend metal sheet plates, they will need to be well insulated of course. (glass is an excellent insulator) you have in affect a capacitor which will hold a static charge. The dryer the air the better, which becomes charged with +/- ions. Charged voltage can be quite high depending on several factors. The problem is the discharge currents are very low. This also applies to Antenna receivers and earth batteries that you are currently experimenting with. It's working towards gaining useful current of course well above just a few milliamps that we really need to achieve. If you are experimenting with long antenna's with resonant circuit components you are most likely receiving RF or 50/60Hz line buzz as already suggested. I'm probably mentioning ideas and suggestions that you are all familiar with through your experiments. You can substantially increase a voltage across a coil winding by adding more turns, the down side is that more turns increases the DC resistance which reduces the available current! likewise fewer turns reduces the voltage but increases the current. Consider how an AC power transformer works and the ratio of it's windings. The primary matches the line input voltage and may have a resistance of several K with many turns, were as the secondary could have far less turns with a lower resistance of just a few ohm's but may be capable of delivering a few amps at a relatively low voltage, compared with only perhaps a few hundred milliamps drawn from the secondary winding. This is our goal, real useable power. Voltage combined with higher current. V x I = Watts.
Sorry rather long... keep up the good work.

Regards

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on October 21, 2009, 06:04:20 PM

@ stprue

Quote from: stprue on October 21, 2009, 04:45:47 PM
It is possible xee, my TPU where I can't hook it up right will still put out static 7-12vdc with a specific set up...a wrong set up of course! I have also seen antenna set-up putting out like 12-15 on youtube!

I think in those youtube videos the antenna is near high voltage lines or high power transmitter. In that case the antenna is more of a transformer secondary than an antenna.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 22, 2009, 12:50:18 AM

Xee2:

Or inductor?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on October 22, 2009, 07:46:06 PM

@ Pirate88179

Quote from: Pirate88179 on October 22, 2009, 12:50:18 AM
Xee2:

Or inductor?

Bill

I do not understand what you are asking. But if the antenna is connected to a very high Q resonant parallel LC circuit the voltage at the resonant frequency can be multiplied many times. This is why these are used at the input of radios. However, even though the voltage is increased there is no net power increases. The effect much like charging a capacitor. The voltage on the capacitor increases but that is only because it is summing the power over a period of time. The net power does not increase, but it is stored and them used over a short period of time so that more is available during the short time it is used. If that makes any sense to you.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on October 22, 2009, 11:57:53 PM

lets say we or someone builds a unit that does indeed put out more amp than in ...
how we go about feeding back to charge a cap if the output has amp plus some spikes
regulator or resistor to cap ??

just wondering...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on October 23, 2009, 02:47:31 AM

Quote from: kooler on October 22, 2009, 11:57:53 PM
lets say we or someone builds a unit that does indeed put out more amp than in ...
how we go about feeding back to charge a cap if the output has amp plus some spikes
regulator or resistor to cap ??

just wondering...

It depends on what you want to do with the voltage you have created. You first need to isolate it in such away that it can be stored or used, and not leak back into the circuit that created it. The most common method is to use a blocking diode which is forward biased when a positive voltage or positive signal pulses are applied to it's anode. The cathode connects to either some form of regulator circuit or storage device i.e. battery or capacitor. The diode will not return the stored energy back to the circuit that created it. Over a period of time your cell(s) or capacitor(s) will charge to a degree that will enable you to make use of it.

merv

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on October 23, 2009, 09:08:45 AM

just popping in to say hello to all ...

im still round ... just winterzing ma tent at the beach

i hope to be back to work in the new lab soon ...

hopeing gadget might read this...

i need to buy a FEW SUPER CAPS FROM HIM ...

of course i have come up with a million more ideas since i last stopped by overunity.com ...

but i need a warm lab to build all winter in ..

and it is almost done ... ;D

see ya soon in the new lab..

ist!

ps gadget i need caps lets work a deal ... 2vdc 50 + frad x6 for 12vdc ... there bouts ... ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: spinner on October 24, 2009, 05:09:25 AM

Quote from: crowclaw on October 21, 2009, 05:03:16 PM
@ All.

Hi Guys, I find your work fascinating. I am an electronics engineer and have been experimenting on similar projects involving inductive power transfer. Just a word on suspended plates and antenna's. If you can suspend metal sheet plates, they will need to be well insulated of course. (glass is an excellent insulator) you have in affect a capacitor which will hold a static charge. The dryer the air the better, which becomes charged with +/- ions. Charged voltage can be quite high depending on several factors. The problem is the discharge currents are very low. This also applies to Antenna receivers and earth batteries that you are currently experimenting with. It's working towards gaining useful current of course well above just a few milliamps that we really need to achieve. If you are experimenting with long antenna's with resonant circuit components you are most likely receiving RF or 50/60Hz line buzz as already suggested. I'm probably mentioning ideas and suggestions that you are all familiar with through your experiments. You can substantially increase a voltage across a coil winding by adding more turns, the down side is that more turns increases the DC resistance which reduces the available current! likewise fewer turns reduces the voltage but increases the current. Consider how an AC power transformer works and the ratio of it's windings. The primary matches the line input voltage and may have a resistance of several K with many turns, were as the secondary could have far less turns with a lower resistance of just a few ohm's but may be capable of delivering a few amps at a relatively low voltage, compared with only perhaps a few hundred milliamps drawn from the secondary winding. This is our goal, real useable power. Voltage combined with higher current. V x I = Watts.
Sorry rather long... keep up the good work.

Regards

Fascinating.. The "Jule thief" became a nr.1 thread in the OU site!
Congrats, Pirate!

So, what is the current level of achievements here?
Thanks!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sm0ky2 on October 24, 2009, 10:42:08 PM

Quote from: spinner on October 24, 2009, 05:09:25 AM
Fascinating.. The "Jule thief" became a nr.1 thread in the OU site!
Congrats, Pirate!

So, what is the current level of achievements here?
Thanks!

i have achieved a weapon of mass-circuit destruction.
exploding capacitors, burnt out transistors,
and this old "AA" still hasn't "died" yet...

im thinking connecting two of these together needs more precision, and cooridination between the two rings, dimensions, number of turns ect..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on October 25, 2009, 01:30:10 PM

Quote from: spinner on October 24, 2009, 05:09:25 AM
Fascinating.. The "Jule thief" became a nr.1 thread in the OU site!
Congrats, Pirate!

So, what is the current level of achievements here?
Thanks!

Spinner

Can you restate your question ?

I would restate your current question something like this

Please state in 25 words or less everything that has been gained in the 900 + pages of this thread .

Of course how I restated your question in a somewhat exaggerated manor

Can you be a little more specific about what you are asking about ?
A summery of the entire thread is just not practical .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on October 25, 2009, 04:04:53 PM

Is it possible to run joule thief with no batteries caps only?
Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 25, 2009, 04:16:56 PM

Yes, I have done it many times. Here is a video of one example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWNGUJdQACU

Here is a video where I charge a supercap from my earth energy receiver and then run four 10MM super bright leds on the supercap only:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4gRDwPqSz4

Here is a video of me lighting 400 leds from a supercap charged from my EER:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agqKEed7AOI

Check out my other videos for similar experiments.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on October 25, 2009, 04:28:51 PM

Thanks Pirate how can I build this earth battery?
Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on October 25, 2009, 05:45:18 PM

Hi guruji,

first go here:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3500.msg206045#new (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3500.msg206045#new)

There is an amazing amout of information on earth batteries.
That thread was originally called earth battery etc. but it migrated to be a stubblefield thread, but the whole first 6 months or more were strictly earth battery.
That is where Bill originally posted his pix with the eb lighting the led.

enjoy.
There is a lot of activity going on there now. It mostly has to do with stubblefield, but plain earth batteries belong there too.

see you there,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief conical sort-of secondary
Post by: jeanna on October 25, 2009, 08:00:49 PM

Hi everybody,Here is what I have playing with for the last couple of days.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84jr0GlYvYA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84jr0GlYvYA)

I hope it is just the media stick, but my camera quality is dropping fast. I do apologize, but it is a short video and worth a couple of minutes.

I made a cone with 2 wires.
It is a single layer but made with 2 wires.
I didn't get much response and I was sure that I would, so I kept on trying things.

In the end, or is it the beginning? I used a simple joule thief toroid wound as a primary.
This is 5T,8T center-tapped, of course, and I put that into the joule thief circuit to create some pulses and then stuck it like a cap onto the small part of the cone.

Next, I wrapped the top wire pair around the toroid 2 times. (2 times but 2 wires makes 4 turns total around the toroid).

Then, I took the red one from the top and connected it to the bottom end of the green one, and looked through the scope at what those red and green wires were doing.

At one resolution I see the jagged triangle wave that we see on the EER a lot.
At another resolution, there is a series of balls with spikes coming out of them but my favorite is the one that looks like a spiral. If you watch it in motion.

Please have a look. I will deal with the camera next week. :'( :'(

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on October 26, 2009, 06:32:17 AM

Hi, Can someone point me in the right direction...

If I have a simple Earth Battery at say .9v 2 mA and hook it to a super cap say 2.5v 55 farad and let it charge cap all night, will the cap have enough mA's to power joule thief LED for few hours ???
How much current will collect in super cap from EB ?????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on October 26, 2009, 08:47:42 AM

Quote from: freepow on October 26, 2009, 06:32:17 AM
Hi, Can someone point me in the right direction...

If I have a simple Earth Battery at say .9v 2 mA and hook it to a super cap say 2.5v 55 farad and let it charge cap all night, will the cap have enough mA's to power joule thief LED for few hours ???
How much current will collect in super cap from EB ?????

Make sure you use a diode to keep the energy from draining out of the supercap!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on October 26, 2009, 11:34:18 AM

Quote from: freepow on October 26, 2009, 06:32:17 AM
Hi, Can someone point me in the right direction...

If I have a simple Earth Battery at say .9v 2 mA and hook it to a super cap say 2.5v 55 farad and let it charge cap all night, will the cap have enough mA's to power joule thief LED for few hours ???
How much current will collect in super cap from EB ?????

Actually it would be terrific if you would do this until you got something and let us all know the answer to that. We have been trying to figure that answer too.

Bill has lit a bunch of things with his, and some others have said they did too, but the closest I ever got was to make a set-up sort of like yours to collect a charge and charge a battery. I charged 2 batteries but only to 1.17v. Pretty low, but they were able to light a led... but not directly (yet)
jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on October 26, 2009, 06:30:30 PM

quick question: ..when the magnetic field collapses, does it collapse with polarity in the opposite direction?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on October 27, 2009, 03:49:21 AM

:D Answer is *** everything ***

Quote from: resonanceman on October 25, 2009, 01:30:10 PM
Spinner

Can you restate your question ?

I would restate your current question something like this

Please state in 25 words or less everything that has been gained in the 900 + pages of this thread .

Of course how I restated your question in a somewhat exaggerated manor

Can you be a little more specific about what you are asking about ?
A summery of the entire thread is just not practical .

gary

@all
just poking my nose in like IST, lol

You are all a great bunch of people, I'm having fun fun fun also.

I havent forgot about my huge iron JT ring, its still blank, gotta change that :D
For those who dont know what I been up to the last few months, I been getting 60 odd volts out of my 83 earth batteries in series.
I have reconnected them into 4 banks, series parallel.
They dont wanna wear out, 8) I drivin a single white LED 24 x 7 over the last month at uAmps.
Isnt it strange what mucking in dirt n water does to one lol

Next stage is 1 Iodine drop in each cell, just to see what occurs

hooroo all

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on October 27, 2009, 04:00:41 AM

@ guruji

Quote from: guruji on October 25, 2009, 04:04:53 PM
Is it possible to run joule thief with no batteries caps only?
Thanks

Bills right on the money, use a supercap, charge up the super cap first, then run the joule thief off that.
If you use a ordinary electrolytic it will discharge all its power as a single pulce and might fry the trannie.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on October 29, 2009, 12:42:47 AM

something i been playing with...
it makes lot of high power sparks of course and will light small lite bulbs of 110v - 220v
it will blow a neon out with a bang...lol
the inductor help feed the emf back to the cap and speed recharging
i posting here cause i used the jt circuit on the tranformer like the camera rigs
warning if you try to build this...
don't touch the output. like me,.,. it hurt... hahaha

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on October 29, 2009, 01:28:22 PM

Quote from: kooler on October 29, 2009, 12:42:47 AM
something i been playing with...
it makes lot of high power sparks of course and will light small lite bulbs of 110v - 220v
it will blow a neon out with a bang...lol
the inductor help feed the emf back to the cap and speed recharging
i posting here cause i used the jt circuit on the tranformer like the camera rigs
warning if you try to build this...
don't touch the output. like me,.,. it hurt... hahaha

Kooler

Nice circuit

:)

What is the size of L2?
What is L2 for?
It is fed by a bridge ........the output of the bridge would be pulsing DC but more pure DC than pulsed DC
Will your circuit work without L2 ?

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on October 29, 2009, 02:03:00 PM

Quote from: kooler on October 29, 2009, 12:42:47 AM
something i been playing with...
... and will light small lite bulbs of 110v - 220v
it will blow a neon out with a bang...lol
the inductor help feed the emf back to the cap and speed recharging
...

Hi kooler,
This is kool.

I am wondering what you have written after 800v on the bottom line just before the bridge.
It looks like 8a, but this does not make sense to me.

Also:
What kind of small light bulbs does it light?

This is almost like the circuit that MK1 used to determine the amount of voltage he got from his secondary.
The additional inductor makes this very interesting to me.

Thank you for posting this.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on October 29, 2009, 03:14:50 PM

@ kooler

Thanks for posting your results. What kind of transformer are you using?

@ jeanna

I think that means the diode brigde is rated at 800 volts and 5 amps.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on October 29, 2009, 04:28:36 PM

Thank you xee2,

Yes, that is what it says!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on October 29, 2009, 06:46:03 PM

thats a old bridge i had it is a 800v 6amp
i was just playing around with this rig ... its part of my other circuit i was playing with that is a bit to dangerous at the moment to post right now...
you could take the bridge out if you want and use a ac cap...
i was using a nonpolarized dc cap

as for the transformer... i think it is a audio transformer of some sort.. a bit larger than a fuji cam ..
it puts out a constant 331 volts dc thur a bridge

the L2 is just a 1'' toroid with 16 turns of 22awg
when the cap discharges the emf of the inductor comes back to the cap to help rechare it
i'm sure you guys can make this alot better

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on October 30, 2009, 11:39:49 AM

Quote from: kooler on October 29, 2009, 06:46:03 PM

the L2 is just a 1'' toroid with 16 turns of 22awg
when the cap discharges the emf of the inductor comes back to the cap to help rechare it
i'm sure you guys can make this alot better

Kooler

If I am understanding you right L2 and your 1.5 uF cap make a resonant circuit ........so the light bulb would be lit with AC

That would be a very efficient way to do it .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on October 30, 2009, 04:43:20 PM

Kooler this is very interesting. Did you try to input more volts and see what happens on the output?
Can you please give more info on parts of this circuit?
Thanks keep expermenting

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on October 30, 2009, 07:02:39 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on October 30, 2009, 11:39:49 AM

Kooler

If I am understanding you right L2 and your 1.5 uF cap make a resonant circuit ........so the light bulb would be lit with AC

That would be a very efficient way to do it .

gary

The inductor does not do anything except act a small resistor (wire resistance) because what comes out of the capacitor after the bridge is DC. It might provide some smoothing for the pulses charging the capacitor, but the capacitor provides much more so I am not sure the inductor provides any benefit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sm0ky2 on October 30, 2009, 07:55:28 PM

kooler nice circuit.

i did something a little different, trying to power my 7-inch coil.
i used an in-line rectification method, by putting a diode (led) on each end of the secondary of my smaller coil. one going in, one going out - which produces a pulsed DC, but you essentially lose the oter half of the A/C. anyways... trying to copy my EB set-up, i placed a (biased) 4700 microfarad cap (35v cap) in series with the larger coil.
i managed to dimly light an LED on the secondary of the 7-inch coil, but when i measured the cap it read 91volts.
so i thought to turn it off, and discharge the cap before trying something else.. now, my energy equation puts that around 19 joules? i think.. which EXPLODED in a golf-ball sized fireball of electricity, when i shorted across the terminals....

ever since then ive been using a bridge , and A/C caps, to oscillate between the DC pulses and the collapsing field.

the rectified secondary output of my small (1-inch) joule thief measures 70v @ 6ma. thats after all the diode-losses.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on October 30, 2009, 08:11:09 PM

you probably right about the inductor it just seem to charge the cap faster while using the output
i would say i probably wrong but i am going to do some different configuration soon
mostly using a scr to dump it more thur a 1:1 toroid filter to get a different output
like a tazer setup but lower voltage
i get to feeling better i will update you guys

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on October 30, 2009, 08:22:44 PM

oh i meant to you all that if i run a small 3v battery in ..
i can discharge the 3uf cap fast enough ..
i can take to leads and shoot constant sparks like i welding... its pretty kool
just don't do it to long it will weld the leads together

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on October 31, 2009, 01:26:16 AM

xee2 said to kooler:

Quote
@ kooler ...
What kind of transformer are you using? ...

@ all
Radio Shack used to sell a little audio transformer whose secondary had an impedance of several thousand ohms. (It weighed about 1/2 ounce.)

Would two of such transformers in step up series simulate one of those Fuji-style flash unit transformers?

--Lee

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on October 31, 2009, 09:47:17 AM

the little transformer i have is one inch tall and one inch wide...
it has 4 pins on one side and 2 pins on the the other
the 4 pin side reads 0.9 ohms (input)
the 2 pin side reads 70.7 ohms (output)

the code on the transformer reads
on top (0209 lae)
bottom (47j00-0080e lae)
yellow band
ferrite e-core

i think it is a tranny out of a toshiba satellite box

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 31, 2009, 12:49:21 PM

kooler:

Try running the name and then the specs on a google search. You might just be able to come up with some specs on it. I have done it. Sometimes it works, others no.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on October 31, 2009, 03:57:38 PM

@ kooler

Quote from: kooler on October 30, 2009, 08:22:44 PM
oh i meant to you all that if i run a small 3v battery in ..
i can discharge the 3uf cap fast enough ..
i can take to leads and shoot constant sparks like i welding... its pretty kool
just don't do it to long it will weld the leads together

Bend two wires so they are closer together at the bottom than the top and adjust the gap at the bottom so it is small enough for a spark to jump across. The spark will rise so that heat is not all in one place on the wires. Attached video is of Joule thief powered by two 1.5 volt AA batteries. Output is directly from pickup coil winding, no rectifier or capacitor is needed.

EDIT: Sparks put out high levels of UV radiation and can damage eyes with long exposure. Use UV blocking sunglasses when looking at sparks.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on October 31, 2009, 06:16:55 PM

@all

any luck replicating Koolers last circuit? No luck here!!! I was able to light a bulb with my TPU for a few sec's but nothing good to post!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on October 31, 2009, 08:24:57 PM

Quote from: stprue on October 31, 2009, 06:16:55 PM
@all

any luck replicating Koolers last circuit? No luck here!!! I was able to light a bulb with my TPU for a few sec's but nothing good to post!

stprue

I have not tried the whole circuit.
I have been playing with putting a cap across the output.
It seems to help some .
The LED array lights at least as bright as before but the voltage is much lower.
The array is at least as bright running on 70 V as it was running on 250 V

With a cap that is to large I get nothing .

WIth the setup I have I am not trying to push the power limits .
I have burnt up enough stuff in the last month or 2 to last me a while.
I am going to keep the power level low .....and my transistors cool

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on November 01, 2009, 12:46:27 AM

this cap right here seems to be the secret
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G12714 (http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G12714)

it charges alot faster than a electrolytic cap of a lower value

and it will hold 532 vdc easy...lol
and the 1'' toroid with 16-20 turns does help recharge faster but i can't get no faster
so off to something else

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on November 01, 2009, 12:11:14 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on October 31, 2009, 08:24:57 PM
stprue

I have not tried the whole circuit.
I have been playing with putting a cap across the output.
It seems to help some .
The LED array lights at least as bright as before but the voltage is much lower.
The array is at least as bright running on 70 V as it was running on 250 V

With a cap that is to large I get nothing .

WIth the setup I have I am not trying to push the power limits .
I have burnt up enough stuff in the last month or 2 to last me a while.
I am going to keep the power level low .....and my transistors cool

gary

lol yes I burnt up my 2 6w bulbs with my TPU and photo caps!!! Thanks for the reply.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on November 01, 2009, 12:12:49 PM

Quote from: kooler on November 01, 2009, 12:46:27 AM
this cap right here seems to be the secret
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G12714 (http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G12714)

it charges alot faster than a electrolytic cap of a lower value

and it will hold 532 vdc easy...lol
and the 1'' toroid with 16-20 turns does help recharge faster but i can't get no faster
so off to something else

I see, I need to get some film caps.

Thank you!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on November 01, 2009, 01:30:56 PM

Quote from: stprue on November 01, 2009, 12:12:49 PM
I see, I need to get some film caps.

Thank you!

@ stprue
The higher the resonant frequencies you are working at the smaller value of capacitance you will need. Those who are able to couple a scope to the DC output will see how effective the inductor and capacitor combinations work to smooth out the pulses. using a large value capacitor is of no advantage at HF, it takes far to long to charge up before you can put the output to any use. Poly carb/ film capacitors are ideal. When working with low output voltages some small gain can be had by using schotky diodes, they have a slightly better forward voltage drop than conventional diodes. Try also using high speed switching diodes in your HF circuits they are more efficient (BA157 etc.) use them to make up your bridge rectifier circuits. If you are using audio or small mains transformers in self oscillating circuits, they tend to resonate at much lower frequencies so again you will have to select a larger value of high voltage electrolytic smoothing caps of 10uf_47uf. Be careful to get the polarity correct!! and be safe. Kind regards Merv

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 01, 2009, 02:18:39 PM

Quote from: stprue on November 01, 2009, 12:11:14 PM
lol yes I burnt up my 2 6w bulbs with my TPU and photo caps!!! Thanks for the reply.

;D ;D ;D 8)

CONGRATS SIR ST!

crowclaw ...

AWESOME !

PICTURES ANYONE .. CONCLUSIONS ANYONE ... ?

IST!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 02, 2009, 09:07:30 AM

WELL CONGRATS TO ALL THE GRADS FROM SCHOOL OU.. !!

I WOULD RIGHT NOW LIKE TO ANNOUNCE THAT THE NEXT SHIFT IS WELL UNDERWAY ...

FOR THOSE OF YOU UNAWARE OF WHAT IS ACTUALLY TAKEING PLACE IN THE COSMOS ..

FOR RIGHT NOW

IT IS ADVANCEMENT TIME ..!!! FOR THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE .. :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

I WILL SET ANOTHER GOAL FOR PEOPLE TO ACHIEVE .. IF IT IS POSSIBLE .. I KNOW IT IS ... LOL

SO THAT BEING SAID

HERE ARE A FEW PICTURES ... THIS IS NOT MY WORK ...

FIRST OFF DON SMITHS WORK IS TO BE EXPLORED ...!

SECOND PLASMA .. COMBINE WITH A JT! AS A POWER SOURCE ... ELEMINATE THE POOR QUALITY TRANSISTORS .. WITH TUBES .. I HEAR THERE SOME 1 VOLT TUBES ...

INFACT I HAVE A LIST GIVEN TO ME FROM A GOOD SOURCE WICH I WILL SHARE .. THE PERSON THAT HAS GIVEN ME THIS LIST IS FROM OU!! ;) THANK YOU SIR ..!

YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE ..

FIRST A PICTURE ...

THE LINK WHERE THIS PICTURE CAME FROM

http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://scopeboy.com/elec/plasma/globe2-1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://scopeboy.com/elec/plasma/index.html&usg=__yvHsepe7R05clUON1GA9mobeZYk=&h=522&w=400&sz=25&hl=en&start=38&sig2=AJ1OBpoV2KKTVCA94KwBjA&um=1&tbnid=6jEhvlGkYDr7EM:&tbnh=131&tbnw=100&prev=/images%3Fq%3DPLASMA%2BGLOBE%26imgsz%3Dm%26imgtbs%3Dz%26ndsp%3D20%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26sa%3DN%26start%3D20%26um%3D1&ei=Y-HuSt7GFt_UlQf1qIiABQ

HERE IS ANOTHER PICTURE ABOUT PLASMA......

HERE IS A PICTURE OF PLASMA SHOWING SG...
;)
LINK FROM THE 3RD LAST PICTURE ...

http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://cyclotron.lbl.gov/images/plasma.jpg&imgrefurl=http://cyclotron.lbl.gov/88History.html1.html&usg=__4dzB2ywh2TE2KVSH2jn39VwXEso=&h=319&w=312&sz=14&hl=en&start=120&sig2=xcA4vKhK3ziPnWB3rSz_Ug&um=1&tbnid=-_Dw8vM1urlDjM:&tbnh=118&tbnw=115&prev=/images%3Fq%3DDON%2BSMITH%2BPLASMA%2BBALL%26ndsp%3D20%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26sa%3DN%26start%3D100%26um%3D1&ei=SePuSs7_FpPIlAfO3YmABQ

AND HERE IS THE SG FOR 6 COIL CONFIG ..

AND FINALLY I ADD THE 1V TUBE LIST!

IST

SHIFT HAPPINS... 8) JUST GO ASK
Q ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 02, 2009, 11:04:44 AM

Hi ist,
thank you.

A little terse as usual, but comprehensible this time.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 02, 2009, 01:02:25 PM

WELL

:D

if some one manages to achive this .. we can move right along to the next one ...

altho this would mean for the person who does manage to build this would be the worlds first..

to make a good sized plasma ball run on 1vdc or less be it EB solar or whatever..

also it will there for be the most efficient plasma device around ...

next we apply this low voltage plasma ball to don smiths work ...

and boom 50kw ... lol ;)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on November 02, 2009, 02:10:30 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on November 02, 2009, 01:02:25 PM
WELL

:D

if some one manages to achive this .. we can move right along to the next one ...

altho this would mean for the person who does manage to build this would be the worlds first..

to make a good sized plasma ball run on 1vdc or less be it EB solar or whatever..

also it will there for be the most efficient plasma device around ...

next we apply this low voltage plasma ball to don smiths work ...

and boom 50kw ... lol ;)

ist!

@ ist, nice experiment and spectacular result. the only issue using tubes is the heater voltage! 1.5 amps at 6.3v is a lot of power. Incedently the screen grid will get hot under its collar_probably drawing grid current near or above the anode pd, a screen grid resistor of 220 ohms or above may possibly help. There are several tubes that may be suitable that have appeared over the past years open to experiment with, some used for battery equipment with lower powered heaters, however they still could present a draw back and not for the faint hearted to experiment with. I have had none the less many happy hours designing tube amps from years gone by... so may be tempted to have a go myself at something similar. Nice one keep trying Merv

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 02, 2009, 02:19:05 PM

this is great news merv a true tubber...

welcome to OU

your skills are required here sir!

please dl the list of tubes ...

this was compiled by a well educated member in tubes ..

1 and 2 volt HEATERS ... PERFECTLY SUITED .. :)

agin im glad your a member on ou

CROWCLAW

IST!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on November 02, 2009, 08:06:47 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on November 02, 2009, 01:02:25 PM
WELL

:D

if some one manages to achive this .. we can move right along to the next one ...

altho this would mean for the person who does manage to build this would be the worlds first..

IST

Why is the tube ( valve ) required ?

I do not have one of those plasma balls but I doubt that it is much harder to light than a CFL

ANyone know how much voltage is required to get it started?

I tried using a MOT as a JT and I also tried using an automotive ignition coil as a flyback coil (with a JT made from a flyback transformer ) .....both were high enough voltage that the insulation on my alligator clips was totally ineffective .

I choose not to use vacuum tubes .........or spark gaps .
It is just a choice I have made .

Anyone have a a good source of the plasma globes?

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 03, 2009, 12:26:59 AM

gary

good call on the tubes... you need to be experienced to some degree..

the reason for tubes is it is pretty indestructable .. plus ... BETTER RESULTS!!! ;) ;D

I THINK THE TUBES WILL BE BEST SUITED ..

I WAS OUT LOOKING FOR PLASMA BALLS TODAY .. I HAVE 1

BUT I WANTED 3 AT LEAST ;) 6 EVEN BETTER .. I PAID 20 BUCKS FOR THE ONE I HAVE BRAND NEW IT IS 8" MAYBE 10" GLOBE ..

I BELEAVE THE PLASMA TO BE SOURCE ... OF COSMIC RAYS... ;)

AND IM WILLING TO BET THAT THIS IS SOURCE FOR TESLAS RADIENT ENGERY VIA MAN MADE .. DIRRECTED...

IST!

PLUS WHO KNOWS WHAT WE MAY WELL RE-DISCOVER NEXT :)

TAKE NOTE* LAST PICTURE LAST DWG!

WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE DON SMITH HAS DONE IS HE HAS COMBINED THE TRANSMITTER AND RECIEVER AS 1 UNIT ... HAVE A LOOK ...

http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Smith.pdf

I TRIED TO PASTE THE PICTURE I GET THIS MSG ON MY SCREEN "MOST DONT LIKE IT!"

SO READ THE PDF AND PUT IT TOGATHER .. I NEVER READ IT .. :)

JUST LOOK AT THE ADVANCED PLASMA INTERACTION DEVICE.. ;) :D

LOOKS LIKE IT CAME RIGHT OUT OF THE PATTEND ...

ALMOST ! ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 04, 2009, 09:46:01 AM

well

i guess the intrest in this is still in not enough perhaps it is still to far inadvance from where we are for now

i can go fast i can go slow ...

lets slow it down agin ..

i have decided to build something simpler cheeper and easyer for now .. until we gain more momentum ;)

i have spoke with gadget... i will be getting some of his 650f ultra caps.. there pricey but what the hay!

lol

i think i will build a more powerful jt.. that will have many uses .. everyone is welcome to help ..

this will be my first compleated device .. i will sell a few .. not too many tho ...

it could be powered from any source to start the unit.. a aaa aa d c solar EB ......

there millions of things i could do with thease ultra caps .. but i will persue a low voltage overunity joule theif ..

and it will be designed and built for the people for free EVERY DETAIL WILL BE PRESENTED HERE ON OU ..

for study.. duplication ect.. it will have multi stages... first stage will be basic jt to charge an ultra cap ... stage 2 will be useing a HIGHER VOLTAGE THAN THE ORIGNAL STAGE .. THIS DEVICE WILL OPERATE ON TIME ... ;)

STAGE 2 IS SAY ... 2.7V @ A NICE AMPARAGE ... THE SECOND TOROIDE WILL BE OF HEAVY GAGE PRIMARY .. AND MANY SEOCNDARY/PICKUPS.. IT WILL BE PNP ONLY .. SO AS I CAN BLOCK IT FROM BLOWING UP SWITCHES .. WICH I WILL USE A FEW TRANSISTORS SIMILAR TO THE 3055 BUT PNP 0N STAGE 2 I WILL KEEP THE COLPASE MAGNETIC .. AND ONLY ALLOW IT TO FLOW OUT ALL SECONDARY WIRES.. AND I WILL USE DB107 BRIDGE RECTIFIERS TO A BANK OF ULTRA CAPS TO DRIVE THE VOLTAGE HIGHER ..

TO A POINT THAT I COULD RECHARGE OR DRIVE 12VDC DEVICES DIRRECTLY FROM THE SYSTEM ..

I WILL USE MY LARGE TOROIDE CORE AS STAGE 2..

IST!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on November 04, 2009, 02:36:14 PM

That Kooler circuit works? so I can replicate.
Any help please?

Quote from: kooler on October 29, 2009, 12:42:47 AM
something i been playing with...
it makes lot of high power sparks of course and will light small lite bulbs of 110v - 220v
it will blow a neon out with a bang...lol
the inductor help feed the emf back to the cap and speed recharging
i posting here cause i used the jt circuit on the tranformer like the camera rigs
warning if you try to build this...
don't touch the output. like me,.,. it hurt... hahaha

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on November 04, 2009, 08:31:57 PM

sorry to post this here but i tried to make a new topic and it wouldn't let in the ciol setup section

but i made something i thought i'd share a little till i finish the rest of it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSOcuQfzq4I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSOcuQfzq4I)

powering the car coil with a single AA battery
you guys may need something like this if you need HV...

sorry for the crappy video
i took it with my camera instead of my camcorder

later

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 04, 2009, 08:40:17 PM

@ kooler

Quote from: kooler on November 04, 2009, 08:31:57 PM
sorry to post this here but i tried to make a new topic and it wouldn't let in the ciol setup section

but i made something i thought i'd share a little till i finish the rest of it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSOcuQfzq4I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSOcuQfzq4I)

powering the car coil with a single AA battery
you guys may need something like this if you need HV...

sorry for the crappy video
i took it with my camera instead of my camcorder

later

Don't be sorry. Thanks for posting your results. I am actually amazed you were able to get that big of a spark out of the coil with only 1.5 volts. Can you provide more information about what you are doing?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on November 04, 2009, 09:12:15 PM

@ xee2

alot can be improved... but here is the start

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 04, 2009, 11:56:05 PM

@ kooler:

Great video man, 5 stars. I too would like to know more about what you are doing here. Please feel free to continue to post about this here as, as you said, this is something we can use for our other research. It is related so, carry on and continue to post here. I will go back later and read over your diagram but for now, I think this is incredible results from an AA battery. Nice going.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 05, 2009, 01:10:47 AM

@ kooler

Quote from: kooler on November 04, 2009, 09:12:15 PM
@ xee2

alot can be improved... but here is the start

Ah! Very, very clever. So you are actually driving the car coil with about 200 volt pulses. Much easier to get big sparks that way. Great idea. Thanks for sharing. How fool proof is the pulse generator part? I would guess that you need to have at least 300 volts coming out of the Joule Thief pickup coil.

EDIT: I notice that you have changed from a 2N3055 transistor to a 2N3904. What kind of difference in performance are you seeing between the two transistors? Are the neons regular NE2 type bulbs or are they gas discharge tubes that short out quickly at 120 volts?

EDIT 2: You might want to put a 1K resistor in series with the neons to prevent them from triggering the SCR before they turn on. Although I think you know more about SCRs than I do so that may not be a good suggestion.

EDIT 3: This circuit could also be useful for generating very bright LED pulses or could be used to convert low current input from an earth battery into very high current pulses to make LEDs look very bright. LEDs would need to be put in series with enough bulbs to be able to withstand the pulse voltage (which could be reduced by only using one neon).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 05, 2009, 03:38:08 AM

deleted

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 05, 2009, 02:32:13 PM

that is nice kooler!

lots of things can be done with that ...

ill leave it there ... its your baby ...

;)

for my baby .. i will posibally incopprate pnp and npn ... why not ... might aswell do it right ... lol

for the price of the darn ou put cap bank ....

then we have an unbeatable low voltage system ... and its safe without massive interferince ...

ill just sync the pnp and npn to 1 pulse and send it through a bridge first ... b4 the input of the ring ... ;) this way i can block the colapse ... i expect!

we 'll see

if anyone can afford the ultra caps i will build with you public .. i will use ALL COMMON AVABIAL CHEEP PARTS ... SO AS IT CAN BE BUILD WITH EASE ...

GOLDMINE 5 FOR A BUCK TOROIDS WILL DO FOR STAGE 1 aswell the 2n2222a apears to work verry well on the 1" gm toroides

I LIKE THE DB107 RECTIFIERES .. there small and work well ..

we will continue to add toroides till i have my chargeing time down on the ultra cap ;)

enjoy

IST!

anyone wanna play in my sand box?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on November 05, 2009, 03:42:47 PM

Inno calm down. You mentioned plasma. The deal with plasma is that it can absorb a multi spectrum of photon energy. In other words plasma can convert all sorts of electromagnetic waves into different frequency outputs. Tesla coils produce a spark gap where air is ionized and forms a plasma. The currents through the spark gap will have the original frequency or ionizing frequency in it plus any collected frequencies and radiated frequenceis from the downstream resonant circuits. By analyzing the plasma multispectrum output a number of resonant circuits can be driven by the spark gap and store the collected emwave energy. Higher frequency is best because it allows for a smaller system and the components necessary to assemble resonant circuits is smaller. The gain from the spark gap is stored in the resonant electrical circuits. Then you need to be able to convert the hf ac currents in the tanks to lower frequency high amplitude power. Then if you want dc you need to rectify it. Lots of chores.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 05, 2009, 04:14:23 PM

ok sparks...

the plasma stuff is inadvance of where we are for now..

so to avoild tanks resosnance bla bla i choose to build a simpler device that can and will perovide useable output...

a spesfic freq is not required in this device .. 0 tanks and does not rely on resosnance ..

resonant tuneing will IMPORVE THE DEVICE.. but it does not operate on resosnance ... in the sence it must be in electromagnetic resosnance this is not the case .. my wires will be tuned to 1 another and share the same core as long as i pass magnetics .i need not concern with resosnance ...

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on November 05, 2009, 05:40:59 PM

@ xee2

i never use the 3055 .... i dont like them.. they blow to easy

i tried using a resistor in front of the scr but it cause the bulb to stay lite

and the neons are just regular.. that light at 40 volts but two together
switch at 224 volts
with the resistor in line i blew a scr fast

my battery volts are 1.1 on that AA i used
its just a strobe circuit

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 05, 2009, 06:10:32 PM

@ kooler

Thanks for the feed back. I will try to get a circuit working, but it will be a while. I was not able to find a suitable SCR at my local parts store so I will have to order one.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on November 05, 2009, 09:05:49 PM

i found the one i using in a old pc power supply 400v 4a (scr)

i need to buy me some diac's so i can speed the pulses up...
the neon is not the way if you want to go faster than 6 hz

i might try to use a diode backwards first to see if it will blow the scr...

its kool to take the big toroid (3'') and put 20-30 turns on it and fire this thur it
you can hear the magnetic flux going ''clack , clack , ''etc...

oh .. that little transformer pulls 101 ma's

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 05, 2009, 10:41:21 PM

@ All:

This was just posted on Youtube by a guy I subscribe to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcO0XAiEmo8&feature=sub

It is a pnp npn joule thief circuit that looks very interesting.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 06, 2009, 08:58:07 AM

im just ordering materials to build this thing public with builders that want a unit like the thing i have explained

in my serching for materials .. i found the steel case 2n2222a

just wondering who has used them and what the result was ... ;)

i found them at jameco.com for 35 cents each .. as well the db107 bridges are 22 cents each

gold mine has the toroides .. 5 FOR 1$

and gadget got the CAPS... ;D 60$ EA

as i understand a regular jt .. will FULLY CHARGE THE 650F ULTRA CAP TO 2.7VDC IN 8 HOURS FROM A AA BATTERY .. AND I WOULD EXPECT THIS TO TAKE PLACE A FEW TIMES B4 THE AA IS DEAD ..

CONFORMATION ON THIS THAT IF YOU DIRRECTLY CONNECTED THE CAP TO A AA IT WOULD SUCK THE POWER OUT OF THE BATTERY IN LESS THAN 1 MIN ..

AND THE AA WOULD BE DEAD AND THE ULTRA CAP NOT EVEN HALF FULL ...

CASE AND POINT A AA DOES NOT HOLD 5400WATTS...

BUT YET WITH THE USE OF THE JT YOU CAN FILL IT A FEW TIMES ON THAT AA BATTERY ...

OVERUNITY.... I THINK NOT ...

A HUMAN MISSUNDERSTANDING OF NATURE ... I KNOW SO.. ;)

;D

http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/StoreCatalogDrillDownView?langId=-1&storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&freeText=2N2222A&search_type=jamecoall

IST!

so im odering materials ... and if i dont see a sign ... and this is quite regular in my life ... ;)

ill take a picture of it cuz you wont beleave other wize ..

i placed the first order .. i bought some THE PERFECT CHOICE PRE PAID VIAS'S

I OPEN THE FIRST CARD JUST NOW ... TO PURCHISE 500 TOROIDES ... AND THE CODE # ON THE BACK OF THE CARD IS 977 LOL ;)

GUESS WERE RIGHT ON TIME ... :)

THIS IS BY NO MEANS A JOKE !

HOWS THAT FOR MAGIC .... ? !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 06, 2009, 11:48:40 PM

finally got the darn pre pay cards figured out sheesh i feel really dumb .. worse than usual lol

none the less

this is what i have ordered .. and i can sell a few parts to a few that want to build with me the exact same thing .. public ..

500 cores 1"
200 npn 2n2222a
500 db107 bridges
100 1k 1 turn .5 watt pots
4 650 f ultra caps .. i will be buying more a compleate 12v dc unit will require 6 650f caps or the big model will require 1 650f (input) and 5 1275 f (output) caps

then today i also bought a 12vdc step down adaptor... real cheep one ... i will use this to close the loop and make it self running

YES YOU HERD ME RIGHT ... THIS IS A CLOSED LOOPED RING SELF RUNNING ...

;D 8)

LET A SINGLE CHARGE OF DRIVEING CAP #1 BE FIRST CONSIDERED ... ;)

so it apears .. that if each cap holds 5400watts x5 there is some power in my unit ... ;D

that would mean in my output cap bank i will have on reserve 27 000 watts 12vdc .. as it apears.. and 5400 wats to drive it

the jt serves as a starter for my cap motor it charges the ultracap on the input side to full charge that cap then runs eather a bunch of small rings or my larger core ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on November 07, 2009, 12:54:16 AM

oh,
thats alot of money brother...
hope it isn't wasted...
what be the build...

show me sumthing in tiny cad ..
it's free and easy

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 07, 2009, 01:55:26 AM

im sure it is not wasted ...

and i have already similar smaller units in this thred useing the same parts aside the ultra caps ...

they apear to work well

;D

i can add more outputs with ease to each ring ... to speed up the charge time of the cap plus any number of other tricks to add to the basic unit ..

dont worrie bro .. ;D ;)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 07, 2009, 02:22:10 AM

@ IST:

I believe you will love the ultra caps. Like my beginning work with supercaps 2 years ago, and later with my 650 F ultra cap, I find these to be really incredible devices. they charge up quickly, unlike a battery, but then give off their energy as per the demand, like a battery. To me, I think these will take us into the future of electronics.

Also, with my earth battery, I have found they also store the spikes as real energy. I really want to try to use these on a Bedini motor to capture the back EMF just to see what the efficiency might be then.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on November 07, 2009, 03:37:06 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on November 07, 2009, 02:22:10 AM
@ IST:

I believe you will love the ultra caps. Like my beginning work with supercaps 2 years ago, and later with my 650 F ultra cap, I find these to be really incredible devices. they charge up quickly, unlike a battery, but then give off their energy as per the demand, like a battery. To me, I think these will take us into the future of electronics.

Also, with my earth battery, I have found they also store the spikes as real energy. I really want to try to use these on a Bedini motor to capture the back EMF just to see what the efficiency might be then.

Bill

@ Bill
Hi, Is that cap value correct! that's some beast of a cap, and capable of suppleing some power no doubt. Have you a supplier over their I'm in the UK. Been having a look over all your work and video's... nice work and valued contribution. Merv

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 07, 2009, 08:52:30 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on November 07, 2009, 02:22:10 AM
@ IST:

I believe you will love the ultra caps. Like my beginning work with supercaps 2 years ago, and later with my 650 F ultra cap, I find these to be really incredible devices. they charge up quickly, unlike a battery, but then give off their energy as per the demand, like a battery. To me, I think these will take us into the future of electronics.

Also, with my earth battery, I have found they also store the spikes as real energy. I really want to try to use these on a Bedini motor to capture the back EMF just to see what the efficiency might be then.

Bill

;D

thanks bill i know i will love em .. ;D i have a pulse motor that will fill em FAST LIKE REALL FAST...

I CAN CHARGE A .5F CAP ON THIS UNIT TO WELL OVER FULL IN LIKE 2 MIN OR LES FROM A SINGLE COIL

but i can not afford all the caps i could use so i choose to make it motionless

i have now ordered 6 of the 650 f caps ..

ANY JT WILL CHARGE IT ...

I HAVE ALREADY BUILT SOME 100 RINGS THAT WILL CHARGE IT WITH EASE

BUT I WANT TO CUT THE RECHARGE TIME DOWN TO LIKE 15 MIN OR SO .. THIS WAY .. WE GET A LOT OF THE GOOD STUFF

IST

i would like to thank GADGETMALL!! publically for all the help ... your a great guy !!

i do reccomend you buy your supplys from gadget ... hes just good at what he deos .... :)

thanks agin gadget!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 07, 2009, 12:30:57 PM

@ kooler

I do not have any experience with SCR circuits. Do you think a resistive divider like this might work?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on November 07, 2009, 01:26:42 PM

@ xee2
i not sure.. i do know that the scr have very sensitive gate
0.5-1.5-5.0 volts
so maybe if you got enough resistance it might work???

you can get some 400-600 scr with a t0-92 pretty cheap
like .49 cents each

edit....
what i was saying about the gate is it will probably trigger it all the time and burn the scr up
i was thinking of trying a 200 volt diode backwards to trigger it
since you can trigger it with pos or neg

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 07, 2009, 02:11:07 PM

@ kooler

I have ordered some SCRs similar to yours (MCR106-D) but they will not get here until late next week. I have been trying to learn a bit about SCR circuits. I have some 90 volt gas discharge tubes (basically just a neon bulb that fires at a specific voltage) that I think I can use as a high voltage zener diode in the following circuit. I think that is what I will try first. Thanks for your help.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on November 07, 2009, 02:22:42 PM

Hi guys today I turned more turns to the primary double JT toroid coil and acquired more voltage.
So is it better to turn more than 20turns as said to a toroid JT?
Can I use a transformer instead of losing time winding the toroid?
Any help please?
Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 07, 2009, 02:22:52 PM

i love it!!

great curcuit!

scrs look kool im sure i have a few somewhere ...

looks like a diode gatekeeper with a trigger

ill build this thing too some time ..... ;D

honestly i cant keep up with all the things i already need to finish .. :D

but im not worried it will come togather all at ONCE... ;D

ist!

still doing lab construction ..... but it is getting there ... :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 07, 2009, 02:31:14 PM

Quote from: crowclaw on November 07, 2009, 03:37:06 AM
@ Bill
Hi, Is that cap value correct! that's some beast of a cap, and capable of suppleing some power no doubt. Have you a supplier over their I'm in the UK. Been having a look over all your work and video's... nice work and valued contribution. Merv

Merv:

Thank you for your kind words. This is the best supplier I know of for these large caps:

http://www.sunpowerwindpower.com/documents/49.html

The supercaps are about 1/3 down the page. I was just at that site and see that Gadget (Al) is getting in some 1275 Farad caps! Wow, that is huge! Also, yes that is correct 650 Farad for the one I have. As Al says, these things can be quite dangerous so some care is needed when working with them. The 650's look like they are still on sale.

Thanks again,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on November 07, 2009, 04:17:11 PM

Quote from: guruji on November 07, 2009, 02:22:42 PM
Hi guys today I turned more turns to the primary double JT toroid coil and acquired more voltage.
So is it better to turn more than 20turns as said to a toroid JT?
Can I use a transformer instead of losing time winding the toroid?
Any help please?
Thanks

@ guruji

You can use transformers, but I suggest using high frequency types similar to those used for TV line scanning circuits etc. these use ferrite formers as opposed to metal laminated stampings as used for mains use which are suitable for low frequency use only. You can achieve a high output voltage from their secondaries but due to their lower frequency working require more drive power too. Keep it going good work. Merv

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on November 07, 2009, 04:18:50 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on November 07, 2009, 02:31:14 PM
Merv:

Thank you for your kind words. This is the best supplier I know of for these large caps:

http://www.sunpowerwindpower.com/documents/49.html

The supercaps are about 1/3 down the page. I was just at that site and see that Gadget (Al) is getting in some 1275 Farad caps! Wow, that is huge! Also, yes that is correct 650 Farad for the one I have. As Al says, these things can be quite dangerous so some care is needed when working with them. The 650's look like they are still on sale.

Thanks again,

Bill

Nice one Bill, thanks for your help.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on November 07, 2009, 05:08:37 PM

maybe soon i will be able to power a small tesla coil with it..hahahaha

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrFhNuCl2BA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrFhNuCl2BA)

small improvement to the last video

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on November 07, 2009, 06:18:48 PM

A fun thing to do with hvoltage is to change the center electrode to a ball shape. The hvoltage ionizes a larger field and if done right current is not drawn every cycle but accumulates the energy in the plasma field. Soon a continuos coronal glow begins to build. Anybody wishing to take a shortcut can get hold of an old tv set or monitor and build an iron 5 turn primary winding of 5 turns 1" diameter turns and stick both ends through a piece of plastic. Take the high voltage lead that goes from the picture tube to the flyback and attach it to the center of the coil. When turned on two little jets of light will be emitted from the ends of the coil below the plastic that angle towards each other along with a noise like when you suck in air through your teeth. Place a piece of aluminum foil a couple of feet below the suspended coil and plastic and attach one end of the aluminum plate to a 100watt bulb and the other to ground. Turn on the set and see if it lights the bulb. Move the aluminum closer WITH THE SET OFF OF COURSE. Turn on the set until the bulb lights fully. Add bulbs results are interesting.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 07, 2009, 06:42:03 PM

@ kooler

I am not sure what you changed for your 2nd video. But, I suspect that you are using a rectifier diode hooked up backwards as a substitute high voltage zener. If so, very clever. But it does not take much current to fry the diode this way. Is that a resistor in series to limit the current? Thanks for sharing the video.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 07, 2009, 06:55:11 PM

Quote from: kooler on November 07, 2009, 05:08:37 PM
maybe soon i will be able to power a small tesla coil with it..hahahaha

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrFhNuCl2BA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrFhNuCl2BA)

small improvement to the last video

awesome video !!

kooler

you got a kick in toy there .... i see 1 microwave diode ... off it to a ultra cap ;D

and your ready to go ... :)

sparks .. you sir are nuts ...

;D ;D 8)

lol ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on November 07, 2009, 07:22:13 PM

alot faster pulses
and longer spark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 07, 2009, 10:05:55 PM

HERE ARE A FEW PICTURES TO ENCOURAGE THE PUBLIC BUILD OF THE WORLDS FIRST MOTIONLESS PERPERUAL RING WITH KW OUT.. SELF RUNNING

THIS RING IS DECATED TO OVERUNITY.COM AND A GIFT GIVEN TO THE PEOPLE OF PLANNET EARTH !

THIS IS TO BE KNOWEN AS THE OU RING!

IST

FOUND THIS ON EBAY GOT THE DOW ?

http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.rc9.net/ebay/tecate.jpg&imgrefurl=http://cgi.ebay.com/Ultra-Capacitor-16-2-V-6-650-F-Maxwell-Ultracapacitor_W0QQitemZ220494474854QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0%3Fhash%3Ditem33567eae66&usg=__6Ha4yinkMOrjOQlMdVCcDmCPWnY=&h=560&w=800&sz=100&hl=en&start=4&sig2=L8ZWPSFrUNqBO7nJ0SUpUQ&um=1&tbnid=ExFD8MZNRWjSxM:&tbnh=100&tbnw=143&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dultracaps%2B650f%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26sa%3DG%26um%3D1&ei=bzP2Sum2CIjLlAfq2I3yCg

TAKE 1 OUT AND YOUR READY TO PLAY 1 ON THE INPUT 5 ON THE OUTPUT...

DID I HEAR SOME ONE WANTING TO OFF GRID THERE HOUSE USEING THE OU RING ..... ;D

GO RIGHT A HEAD !

YOUR MOST WELCOME!

WELCOME TO OPEN SOURCE PROOF OVERUNITY.COM!

FOUND THIS ... ON EBAY ... SPUR IDEAS FOR JT'S? LOL ;)

IT COULD BE CALLED THE O U O ME RING ... LOL :D ;)

BTW THEASE CAPS ARE THE SMALL ONES ... I SPOKE TO GADGET TODAY AND AS OF DEC 1 HE WILL BE SHIPPING 1500F BOOST CAPS FOR 110 US EACH HE HAS THEM LISTED AS 1275F BUT HE FOUND OUT THERE INFACT 1500F SAME PRICE ... ;D SO AGIN SAME DEAL 12VDC YOU NEED 5 CAPS .. 5X1500

THATS 7500F IN OUTPUT STORAGE ... NOW I WOULD EXPECT YOU NEED A REGULATOR OF SORTS ON THE OUTPUT ... SURE I HAVE A SIMPLE SOLUTION BUT AGIN ITS NOT GONNA BE CHEEP ...

BUT WHAT THE HECK ... A LARGE SOLAR CHARGE CONTROLLER ... LIKE 100 AMP THERE BOUTS FEED IT TO THE INVERTORS ... MAYBE THROW A FEW AUDIO CAPS AFTER THE SOLAR CONTROLLER

B4 THE INVERTOR ..

WE WILL SEE

THE IS ONLY 1 THING I DO NOT OWN YET TO COMPLEATE THIS DEVICE .. AND THAT IS THE SOLAR CHARGE CONTROLLER .. IM SURE I HAVE EVERYTHING ELSE ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: topothemtn on November 07, 2009, 11:09:56 PM

I cannot seem to find the pictures of your OU RING. Where can I find them?

Thanks Topothemtn

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 07, 2009, 11:27:56 PM

THE LAST PICTURE SHOWN

is a prime example of the ou ring ..

the red caps are input of stage 2 the 650f caps are output of stage 2 ...

you dont see the ring ... this is stage 2

and first we will build stage 1 ...

this entire thred up to this point in time focouses on stage 1 and low volt low amp stage 2's ...

this unit the THE OU RING CAN BE SCALLED TO POWER FACTORIES HOUSES BUSSES CARS PLAINES TELEPORTORS UFO'S

BASICLLY THE ENTIRE UNIVIRSE ;D ;)

PEACE IST!

AND IT HAS 0 BATTERIES.... :o :o :o 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 08, 2009, 01:12:28 AM

@ IST:

Very nice photos. That makes me wish I had more money to spend on supercaps, ha ha. do you know the voltage on Gadget's new 1500 F caps? Is it still 2.7 volts like the 650's?

Thanks,

Bil

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on November 08, 2009, 07:31:31 AM

WOW IST

$$$$$$$$

This will make for some awesome projects.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 08, 2009, 08:28:58 AM

YES soon the fun will begin ..

the cap showen is not my work ... you eather got the brains to do it and no funds... or you got the money and no brains ... lol

i have worked darn hard ... to earn the money required to build such a device ..

lol

after my hundreds of rings ... useing the jt ... and all my other reserch wich uses the verry same operation princeables i have come up with this such ring ..

they all should have cought a clue i wanted to be funded ... BUT I WAS NOT ... HAHAHA

NOW ME AND A NUMBER OF OTHER MEMBERS FORM OU .. HAVE CHANGED THIS ENTIRE PLANNET!

FOR BOUT THE 500TH TIME ..... BUT THE SHEEPOPLE ARE SLEEPING IN THE STEEPOPLE

AND DONT SEE IT ... AND IF THEY DO MOST ARE IN THE SAME BOAT AS MYSELF LIMITED ON FUNDING ... FORCED TO HUNT FOR HOURS THROUGH OLD EWASTE TO FIND THE PARTS REQUIRED ..

IST ... SAYS I YI YI BOOM! YING YANG TWINS! ;) I KNOW THE HO'S IN THE CLUB AINT TWIRTING FOR FREE!!! 8)

YES 2.7VDC AS I UNDERSTAND CURRENTLY IS THE HIGHEST VOLTAGE IN THE ULTRACAP SERRIES ...

I BET THIS WILL CHANGE SOON PERHAPS WHY THE CAPS ARE BEING SOLD AT A DISCOUNT....

BUT IT ALSO APEARS MAXWELL CHANGED THE MOUNTING TERMANILS ON THE CAPS .. I DONT SEE A BOLT POST THREDDED ON THE NEW ONES...

SO YING YANG ... WHAT YA GONNA DO 2 YEARS AFTER WHISTLE WHILE YOU T WORK.. ?? :P 8)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUUiy6ziQaQ

YOU GOTTA WORK REAL HARD FOR THE CASH FLOW AND BRING THAT A$$ TO THE DANCE FLOOR!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: itanimuLLi on November 08, 2009, 10:37:10 AM

Hi IST
Cant wait to see the video on youtube.
Do you have schematics. for replication.
Its time to go off grid.
Regards

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 08, 2009, 11:15:30 AM

Quote from: itanimuLLi on November 08, 2009, 10:37:10 AM
Hi IST
Cant wait to see the video on youtube.
Do you have schematics. for replication.
Its time to go off grid.
Regards

im sorry i dont have any schems....

BILL made the DIGRAM THRED ... all is contained there ... THIS WILL BE OVERUNITY.COMS PRIDE AND JOY DEVICE ... GIVEN AS A GIFT A TO OU TO PRESENT PUBLIC TO THE WORLD ...

now just because stage 2 is huge and has a lot of power .... do not ASSUME it needs to run fast!

this is the same as the TD TPU! this device runs in 2 time frames ...

JUST FOR A REAILISTIC VIEW ...

THINK OF THIS IN 1 MIN OF YOUR FREE TIME ..

imagine i drop 100w in 1 second to a large iron core transformer ... and recover the bang... in the ultra caps ... how many times a day and for how long need my unit run ..... ;) ;D 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

ALSO this is how this unit in STAGE 2 SHOULD OPERATE IN ORDOR TO RUN WITH GAIN!

PULSE FROM INPUT 100W TO KEEP IT SIMPLE TO UNDERSTAND ... RUN THROUGH HIGH AMP BRIDGE.. B4 TOROIDE TRANNY WHATEVER COIL PULSE MOTOR ..... ECT!....

SO THAT THE ENGERY WILL NOT RETURN TO CAP #1 PEROID.. OR BLOW THE SWITCHING UNIT .. OK
NOW THE 100W WENT IN ITCOLPASES VIA CONTROLED CURCUIT .. IT WANT TO FLOW BACK TO POINT OF BREAK... YOU BLOCK IT ... OUT IT GOES THE SECONDARY THE SUPPLYED 100W PLUS THE HEMF .. THE SECONDARY COULD BE WOUND TO AN ADUQUATE VOLTS TO CHARGE THE BANK ..

NOW THE HIGHER THE VOLTS YOU REMOVE ON THE CHARGEING SIDE THE LESS ENGERY THE DEVICE USES ON THE INPUT SIDE ...

BLA BLA BLA

COMMON KNOWALAGE.... ;)

IST

THE LOOP IS THEN CLOSED UPON ITS SELF VIA A 12DC STEPDOWN ADAPTOR TO TRICKLE CHARGE THE ULTRACAP WICH THE JT CHARGED VIA AA SOLAR EB .. WHAT EVER METHOD YOU CHOOSE TO FIRST CHARGE IT WITH! .... ;D ;D

IF YOU WANT TO CHEET AND ELEMANITE STAGE 1 .... YOU CAN DO SO BY CHARGEING ALL THE CAPS FIRST THIS THEN BECOMES STAGE 1 ;) ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 08, 2009, 01:21:02 PM

so that is the entire outline of the low voltage overunity device i spoke of..

that i will build ..

but first it is MOST IMPORTANT that we PROVE a AA can fully charge THAT CAP....

with the use of a basic jt or a MK2 style jt! and a db107 1000v 1a bridge ...

and should it charge that cap fully to 2.7v and not run the aa dead .. there is INDESPUTABLE PROOF!

WE HAVE A DEVICE THAT TAPS A NOT WELL UNDERSTOOD ENGERY SOURCE PUBLIC..

AND IF THIS IS SUCH THE CASE .. YOU CAN CLOSE LOOP IT TO RUN WITH GAIN ...

WHOS KIDDING WHO .... THE THING WILL WORK JUST FINE!! ;D 8)

ENJOY!

SERIOUS BUILDERS WANTED .. I WILL HOOK GADGET UP WITH THE SUPPLYER OF THE LARGE TOROIDE CORES I HAVE TESTED IN THIS THRED .... I THINK THERE LIKE 40 BUCKS EACH OR SOMETHING ..... MAKES EM EASY TO WIND THERE SOOO BIG ... ;D

I MAY ACTUALLY BUILD THIS ENTIRE DEVICE INTO AN ENGERY CUBE! THE !CUBE AND MOUNT THE OU RING INSIDE A RF SHEILDED LARGE ALUM CASE THAT COULD HOUSE MANY OU RINGS.... ;)

1 MORE SONG FOR TODAY..

OWL CITY FIRE FLYS!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQpQVw6BEwY

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 08, 2009, 02:59:24 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on November 08, 2009, 01:12:28 AM
@ IST:

Very nice photos. That makes me wish I had more money to spend on supercaps, ha ha. do you know the voltage on Gadget's new 1500 F caps? Is it still 2.7 volts like the 650's?

Thanks,

Bil

hI Bill . I'll post WITH YOUR blessing A PICTURE OF THE NEW 1500FARAD 2.7 VOLTS . i AM RUNNING OUT OF THEM BEFORE I HAD A CHANCE TO PUT THEM ON THE WEB . SOMEONE BOUGHT 19000 1500'S AND ALMOST ALL OF THE 650'S WE HAVE 90 LEFT AND APPROXIMATELY 100 TO 200 1500 FARADS LEFT . STOCK MAY OR MAY NOT BE REPLENISHED BEFORE MID 2010 AT THE DISCOUNT PRICES . you CAN BUY THE DIRECTLY FROM MAXWELL FOR 70 TO 100% OVER MY COST . i ALSO HAVE A NEW ONE COMING SOON 2500 FARAD 2.7 VOLTS ALL ULTRACAPS ARE 2.7 VOLTS . THE BEAUTY OF ULTRA VERSE SUPER IS YOU CAN SERIES AND PARALLEL THEM TO OBTAIN ANY VOLTS OR CURRENT UNLIKE SUPER CAPS ARE VERY LIMITED IN SERIES . LAST LOTS ARE ON SALE NOW AT WWW.SUNPOWERWINDPOWER.COM . I MAKE A WHOPPING 2 BUCKS EACH AFTER PAYPAL TAKES THEIRS :) WHEN THERE GONE THERE GONE . oK LATEST PROJECTS IS A 0.1 MILLIAMP JT USING GERMANIUM AND 2 .5 WATT PURE WHITE TOPHAT 140DEGREE VIEWING ANGLE . MAXIMUM INPUT CURRENT AT 1.2 VOLTS IS 1 MILLIAMP LOWEST IS 0.1 BRIGHTNESS RANGES FROM FULL BRIGHT TO MEDIUM BRIGHT . USES 80 TURNS # 26 bIFIALAR AND 150 TURNS SECONDARY ON A ONE INCH TORROID . PIC LATER WHEN I SET UP THE METERS . still HAVEN'T UNPACKED DIGITAL STORAGE SCOPE AS I AM OUT OF ROOM !! I KNOW SHAME ON ME .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 08, 2009, 03:25:54 PM

@ Gadget:

Great photos man!!!! Holy crap! 2,500 F? Man, just think what we could be doing with those.

Please feel free to post your offerings here at any time as the folks here need to know where to obtain devices like these.

Good to hear from you man,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 08, 2009, 03:48:14 PM

glad your here gadget!

sounds like the buggers took the caps away!!!!

better make it bigger ;D ;)

A SONG FOR THE OCASION ... WAKEING UP IN VEGUS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-pUaogoX5o

AND BILL BRO! LOOK AGIN AT WHAT WE ARE DOING RIGHT NOW ... THIS IS REALITY NOW..

NOT WHAT WE COULD DO WHAT WE ARE DOING!

DIFFRENT UNITS WILL BE BUILT BASED UPON AVAILABLITY OF THE CAPS ... ;D ;)

IST!

I LOST MY FAKE IDEA! .....

SHUT UP AND PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS .... ;D SO I DID SO!

AND I GOT CONFORMATION I WAS ON THE RIGHT PATH IN LIFE AT THE RIGHT TIME THIS IS SHOWEN IN THIS PICTURE BELOW ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 08, 2009, 06:38:01 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on November 08, 2009, 03:48:14 PM
glad your here gadget!

sounds like the buggers took the caps away!!!!

better make it bigger ;D ;)

A SONG FOR THE OCASION ... WAKEING UP IN VEGUS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-pUaogoX5o

AND BILL BRO! LOOK AGIN AT WHAT WE ARE DOING RIGHT NOW ... THIS IS REALITY NOW..

NOT WHAT WE COULD DO WHAT WE ARE DOING!

DIFFRENT UNITS WILL BE BUILT BASED UPON AVAILABLITY OF THE CAPS ... ;D ;)

IST!

I LOST MY FAKE IDEA! .....

SHUT UP AND PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS .... ;D SO I DID SO!

AND I GOT CONFORMATION I WAS ON THE RIGHT PATH IN LIFE AT THE RIGHT TIME THIS IS SHOWEN IN THIS PICTURE BELOW ..

Hi . Ist . i'll allways have access to the caps but until We can make another deal and buy 2 to 4 pallets(approx100,000 per pallet) they will be close to retail but i still have some so like i said its a steal right now for a lifetime power source unlike a battery of equal size life might be 3 years max .?.? these will charge and discharge longer that the lifespan of a human ??? I love em i bought 6 and have everything running off them including lights from Earth batteries running Joule Thiefs . I have Some new Rods also ZINC and CARBON combination . high output so far . this is as close to zinc carbon battery you can get . Just the earth is part of the electrolyte and NS configuration i have not had time to play with that but i do know they prodice a solid 1.5 volts one foot apart in moist earth . Anyways good to see youguys and it took a while for my pictures to upload on dial up but as long as i can walk away and come back later and there there then i can do it. . Night has fallen and so am i . Gnight .

Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 08, 2009, 08:12:02 PM

HERE IS THE LINK TO THE MAKER OF THE LARGE TOROIDE CORES I HAVE USED IN THE PAST ON THIS THRED ..

http://www.mag-inc.com/products/ferrite_cores/toroids

I WILL FIND THE EXACT # THE CORE I HAVE IS I THINK 140 MM OD AND REONANT AT 1.5K

IST

http://www.mag-inc.com/home/Advanced_Search_Results?pn=ZW49740TC

this is the exact same core i have used for my large rings... i have 1 still and plan on buying more ...

i hear they make thease quite large .... ;)

Ferrite toroids offer high magnetic efficiency as there is no air gap and the cross-sectional area is uniform. MagneticsÂ® toroids are available in many sizes (outside diameters ranging from 2 mm to 140 mm) and materials (permeabilities ranging from 900Âµ to 10,000Âµ). Different coatings can be applied to increase winding ease and improve voltage breakdown. Hardware, such as toroid mounts and headers, is available.

Typical applications for high permeability toroids, 5,000Âµ J material and 10,000Âµ W material, include common mode chokes, broadband transformers, pulse transformers and current transformers. Special sizes are available in 5,000 J material for Ground Fault Interrupter (GFCI) applications. 900Âµ L material, 2,300Âµ R material, 2,500Âµ P material, and 3,000Âµ F material are excellent choices for high frequency transformers. PS.... IF YOUR GOOD ... YOU MAY WELL BE ABLE TO GET SOME FREE SAMPLES FROM MAKER OF THE CORES..... CALL IT A TIP PEACE! ;)

the large toroides i have used ARE MADE OF W MATERIAL ... IMAGINE ....

THE SKY 808 COIL ..
W
814

BILL

it would a great help you being the mod... if you could perform some basic simple tests on the 650f ultracap you have and reporting it back to us and you tube as pirate labs does such a wonderful job at documenting the effects of our reserch ..

i just want to see how fast the cap drains an aa and to what level it will charge the cap to..

i would perform the tests but .. i dont have in my hands my materials .. yet..

plus im sure you know i have tones of pratical work to do ..

everyones work is important to this .... and this could not have been achieved with out each and everyone of you ..

so now GRADS OF SCHOOL OU! A GRADUATION GIFT ...

THE SKILLS KNOWALAGE AND UNDERSTANDING TO COMPLEATLY OFF GRID HOUSES .. AND WORK WITH THE ENGERY NATURE PROVIDES ...

ITS EVERYWHERE ALL AROUND YOU WHAT AM I ?

ANSWER I AM SOURCE!

ONE COULD TERM THIS "THE PERFECT GIFT" DELIVERED IN JUST "THE PERFECT MANNOR"

IT IS TIME FOR THE HUMAN RACE TO SYNCRONIZE AND RECONNECT TO SOURCE!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 09, 2009, 12:00:46 AM

IST:

I have been pretty busy with work lately. (Thank god) But, I believe I can do the tests you are asking. I can short the cap and hook it to an AA bat. and see what happens. Then, I can test the bat. and see what is left in it, if anything, and report back.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 09, 2009, 12:19:25 AM

that would be great bill this is a great place to start

to see what is the result dirrect connect ..

then the jt test i suspose anyone could do it if they have the cap...

thanks agin

william

I HOPE YOU ALL REALIZE TO WHAT LEVEL I CAN ADVANCE THIS SETUP

HUMMMMM BORADBAND TRANSFORMERS.... HUMMMMM I HAVE A BUNCH OF AMPS ... ;D YUCCA HAS ALMOST FINISHED THE CONTROLLER ALL DIGITAL 3 FREQ ...

YIKES TRUNK AMPS HOW MANY CHANNELS ON A CABLE SYS ... ? HOW MANY DIFFRENT FREQS ... ?

LOL
;)

ASWELL YOU MIGHT ASWELL REALIZE THAT I KNOW THE NEW CABLE SYSTEM BOTTOM ALMOST TO TOP .. AND I COULD DESIGN A RING THAT RUNS ON A CABLE FEED ALONE .. YOU WILL ALSO NOTE THE CABLE SYS HAS BACKUP BATTERY PACKS LOCATED THROUGHOUT THE DISTRUBUTION AREA..

INCASE OF POWER FALURE .... LOL

;)

SAME WITH THE FONE SYS ... I CAN BUILD IT TO RUN ON THE POWER SUPPLYIED FROM THAT SYS TOO.. AS AN EMERGENCY BACKUP POWER SUPPLY .. IT ONLY NEEDS BE CHARGED ONCE ...

JUST IMAGINE THE WORLD WE ALL COULD BE LIVEING IN NOW! NOT TOMMOROW BUT TODAY!

I AM ONLY RIGHT NOW IN TIME TOUCHING ON SOURCE ENGERY ... I HAVE NOT ADVANCED IT TO TUNED RESONANT TRANSFER AS SOME OF THE MORE ADVANCED ELECTRONIC AND TESLA GUYS ARE WORKING ON ...

THE MAIN GOAL IN OU IS TO REDISCOVER THE SOURCE.. THIS I HAVE DONE .. ALL EXSIST BECAUSE OF SOURCE ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on November 09, 2009, 03:16:16 PM

Thanks Crowclaw for response. About those transformers you've mentioned any transformer in a TV? cause I have an old TV.
Another thing when winding a toroid not 20turns for bifilar and 400T on single as I use to know it; or it's better to add more turns to the bifilar and single?
Thanks

Quote from: crowclaw on November 07, 2009, 04:17:11 PM
@ guruji

You can use transformers, but I suggest using high frequency types similar to those used for TV line scanning circuits etc. these use ferrite formers as opposed to metal laminated stampings as used for mains use which are suitable for low frequency use only. You can achieve a high output voltage from their secondaries but due to their lower frequency working require more drive power too. Keep it going good work. Merv

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on November 09, 2009, 07:04:30 PM

Quote from: innovation_station said:
quote]
im sorry i dont have any schems....
BILL made the DIGRAM THRED ... all is contained there ...

Could we have the Overunity address of of the thread?

I'm very interested to see it in an engineering way. What you photographed up 'til now was unlike anything I've seen yet.

--Lee

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on November 09, 2009, 07:09:11 PM

guruji said:

Quote
Thanks Crowclaw for response. About those transformers you've mentioned any transformer in a TV? cause I have an old TV.

Your question above raises a question of its own in my mind:

@all
Do the new LCD or Plasma TVs had high voltage transformers like the picture tube sets?
(I'll have the chance in the future to acquire transformers from TVs and microwave ovens left on the streets by previous owners.)

--Lee

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 09, 2009, 07:20:23 PM

This is My 0.1 milliamp to 1.1 milliamp running 0.2 to 2.5 volts respectibly Jt lighting a half watt tophat and 100 milliwatt super jumbo white Led . Its not neat and for my own use . Didnt have time to make mine neat as im building other stuff . Theres a supercap anda germanium and a tank circuit and thats abot it . Runs all night and thru the morning and charges in a few mins of sunlight or charges in the house under normal lighting . Allways on design here . Last pic is total dark room . Picture doen not justify the light output . its blinding bright

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 09, 2009, 07:53:15 PM

Nice Albert,

I am glad you can share a pic or 3 today!

I assume that with so very little ampsdraw that this is running off the secondary.
The cap is ? at the resistor?
Is that 250,000ohm? or is the color off on my screen?
Or is it something else... not a resistor?

It sure is bright.
Ain't it nice to be able to makes the room bright with an older battery?

thank you,

jeanna

(Hi ist are you going to give any details on which of all the circuits you are using all those caps on?)

@Lee,

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6942.0 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6942.0)
It is on the page where all the joule thief type threads are.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 09, 2009, 07:56:11 PM

HI J

ALL 6 CAPS MAKE 1 DEVICE 1 SMALL DEVICE .. OUTPUT SIDE BANK OF 650X5 F TOTAL OF 3250F ON RESERVE ... 650 ON THE INPUT AT 2.7VDC OUTPUT WILL BE CONSTANT 12VDC MANY AMP

IM GONNA BUILD AND MAKE IT BETTER RIGHT HERE WITH EVERYONE ... :)

I WOULD LIKE TO SAY ...

WHAT AN HOUNNER IT IS TO PRESENT THIS TECK PUBLIC ... TO THE PEOPLE OF PLANNET EARTH ..

LIKE I HAVE SAID IN THE PAST THIS HAS FALLEN INTO MY LAP ..

I RESERCHED SURE ... BUT I WILL SAY THE INTUTION PART PLAYED A FAR LARGER ROLL ... AS I NEVER REALLY WAS MUCH FOR BIG READING OR SPELLING ... LOL

PRATICAL SIMPLE TESTS PROVED THE MOST USEFULL!!

AGIN I AM TRULY HONNERED TO BE THE ONE TO SHARE THE FINDINGS AND WILD DREAMS OF MY MIND ...

TOGATHER WE ALL CAN MAKE EARTH A BETTER PLACE ..

W!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on November 09, 2009, 08:04:09 PM

Quote from: jeanna said:
@Lee,
url=http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6942.0]http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6942.0
It is on the page where all the joule thief type threads are.

Thanks, jeanna.
I'll look at the whole thread a little at a time and download printoffs of some schematics now.

I'll have more chances to experiment in the future, as the economy will force changes on me that I'll have to accept like a lot of people.

Thanks again,

--Lee

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 09, 2009, 08:49:29 PM

HERE IS A PICTURE OF THE RING CORE IM USEING AND THE ENCLOSURE FOR THE OU RING ..

THIS IS TO ENSURE ANY RADIATING RF IS COUGHT IN THE ALUM CASE AND SENT TO WORK ... ;)

SHOULD THERE BE ANY.... THIS CASE IS HEAVY LIKE 20LBS OR MORE .. ITS LIKE IT WAS BUILT FOR MY RINGS.... I WILL MOUNT 2 IN THIS CASES LID ... YOU CAN SEE WHERE THEY GO ...

OTHER PART WILL HOLD THE DRIVEING UNIT AND RECTIFER BOARDS ... SO YOU CAN SEE WHY I CHOOSE THE DB 107'S..... LOL JUST MAKE BOARDS OF THEM ... ;) THE ENTIRE THING BOLTS TOGATHER AND IS WEATHER PROOF!!

THIS IS THE HEART OF THE !CUBE PORTABLE POWER SYSTEM! THE CASE WILL BE MOUNTED INSIDE A BOX AS WELL THE CAP BANK AND INVERTOR AND THE POWER CORD TO CLOSE THE LOOP

IST

HOPE THIS ANSWERS SOME QUESTIONS ...

MY COSMIC ROSE JT KINDA LIGHTS UP AS AN OUTPUT WINDING CONFIG ....

LOL

HOW MANY OF THOSE AROUND JUST 1 LAYER? YIKES WHAT IS SHOWEN IN MY PIC CAN BE USED AS A SYNCED DRIVEING SYSTEM TO INCREACE AMPRAGE INPUT TO THE DEVICE AS WELL THEY COULD FIRE IN SECCUSSION RAPPIDLY... ;D ;)

THAT BEING SAID ....... LOL

THIS DEVICE CAN HAVE 2 MODES OF OPERATION .... CHUGGGGGG ALONG MODE ... TO JUST KEEP THE BANK TOPPED UP ... OR LOAD MODE ... WHERE IT IS COLIDEING THE FEILDS OF EACH COIL

THERE IS NO LIMIT ... THIS IS WHAT MAKES THIS SUCH A HARD THING TO GRASP ...

IST GET LIT!

THE 200 2N2222A NPN TRANSISTORS I OREDED CAN HANDLE LIKE 75VDC AT .6 AMP EACH HUMMMMM

http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/StoreCatalogDrillDownView?langId=-1&storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&freeText=2N2222A&search_type=jamecoall

I ORDERED 500 BRIDGES ... THOSE CAPS ARE GONNA CHARGE ...! LOL

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 09, 2009, 10:11:31 PM

Quote from: jeanna on November 09, 2009, 07:53:15 PM
Nice Albert,

I am glad you can share a pic or 3 today!

I assume that with so very little ampsdraw that this is running off the secondary.
The cap is ? at the resistor?
Is that 250,000ohm? or is the color off on my screen?
Or is it something else... not a resistor?

It sure is bright.
Ain't it nice to be able to makes the room bright with an older battery?

thank you,

jeanna

(Hi ist are you going to give any details on which of all the circuits you are using all those caps on?)

@Lee,

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6942.0 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6942.0)
It is on the page where all the joule thief type threads are.

Hi . I am running the half watt tophat on the CE of the transistor and the 100 milliwat on a150 turn secondary rectified from a supercap . the black cap on the little piece of circuit board . no batts in this one at all . Actually i think the resistor is one i had and the pot is 5k . This one needed a lot of resistance and caps for a tank to get it to oscillate at low est volts . The Germanium is not like silicon . it needs lots of wire and lots of resistance . Once that is done amazing things can be done like light half watt even three or 4 with juts a touch up on the pot . I have another one running 7 half watter . It has a rechargeable c cell in it . The draw is is a bit higher but im not using germanium just a regular 2n2222a . its 5 ma in . Still a little work on it and making it better appearance . then I have another Cube with My E-light circuit in it . still in proto stage but called it the Infinity Cube light . It uses newest Barium/germanium and charges up to 6 volts worth of batteries Plus lights 2 one watt tophats . I'll have more time to reduce the pictures and i see if there worthy . These Plastic Cubes are perfect for Light Projects and CIS solar cells . Love em . I buy them from a local Sporting good store . there baseball Displays for the trophy case :) seal up nice and are UV resistant

Albert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 09, 2009, 10:38:43 PM

AWESOME GADGET!!

YOU SURE LIKE THINGS TO BE CHEEP AND EFFICIENT! ;D 8)

IN LOOKING AT MY BIG RING ...

I WILL MOST LIKELY HAVE 24 POWERED WINDINGS PER/ TOROIDE BOTH WILL BE HOOKED TOGATHER ..

12 / TOROIDE WILL FIRE IN SYNC ON 2 TOROIDES ... AND THIS CAN BE TOGGLED BETWEEN LOAD MODE .. WICH THE OTHER 12 COILS ON 2 TOROIDES WILL FIRE 1234...... REALLY FAST SO THEY OVERLAP ... ;) THEN OUTPUT WILL BE WOUND ONTOP ... AND THE CORE SHOULD BE TUNED AS WELL AS WIRE / HIGHEST V / TURN OF WIRE .. I WANT ABOUT 14VDC OUTPUT X AS MANY FEEDS AS I CAN GET .. OR WE MAY WELL FIND HIGH VOLT WORKS BETTER ....

WHO KNOWS AT THIS POINT...

this is another reason for the DB107'S 0-1000V 0-1A

IST!

SMILE ! UNCKLE KRACKER :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lB1UJsutvkc

OOOOOO THIS TOY MAKES ME SMILE.... :) :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 09, 2009, 10:45:02 PM

Very nice,

thank you ist . This is very heavy duty,
and
thank you Albert. (I like the looks of the cube too. I will check out where I can find a trophy case display cube. I don't think they do sports here but they do fish... maybe they do trophies for big fish. ;D )

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 10, 2009, 12:36:11 AM

I made a new coil today.

It is made on a toroid and primary bifilar just like the 'widow'.
I have made many of these so far and I am confident of what to expect.

In the usual turns ratio short hand It is
5T,8T,48T

This usually nets about 40v, maybe 50 if I open up the transistor a lot. (and we know I do not like to do that.)

Because of the way I wound the 48 turns of the secondary, however, I got 90v from the 48T.
This is pretty good for this little toroid well, it is about double. ;)

Here is why... I think.
I wound it in a general way like the MK1, but the numbers of turns between turning points went up by a multiple of 8 which was the first number of turns.

So, I went up 8T
Turned and went down 8 again and continued up 8 more on the other side for a total of 16 turns,
turned and wrapped 3 turns in between each of the 8 on that last side for a total of 24 in that 3rd segment.

I am giving it the name
'MK1-jeanna Hybrid'

The idea behind this was to make a 3 cycle pulse.
I did not see any higher frequency... actually maybe lower??, but the voltage about doubled.
The amps draw was not more than 20mA, of course... this is the work of the transistor to make the pulses.

I am pleased because of the large voltage increase, but a little disappointed in the look of the wave which is very ordinary. (remember how I love those beautiful complex wave forms... oh well - good voltage.)
Xee2 showed that the wave form of the plain solenoid was great to light a fluoro tube, so I should forget about the pretty forms, I know.

Anyway, this is a lot of voltage for a few turns.
It may be the right idea finally.
I am about to make the other side of the cone into an hourglass, which is what I really want to be making, but I had this idea and needed to report, because the voltage is so high.

Maybe someone wants to try it?

<--------| 8T, --------|-------->16T, |<------------------------ 24T

This sign: | is the start and finish point of the secondary wires.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 10, 2009, 07:09:23 AM

Quote from: jeanna on November 09, 2009, 10:45:02 PM
Very nice,

thank you ist . This is very heavy duty,
and
thank you Albert. (I like the looks of the cube too. I will check out where I can find a trophy case display cube. I don't think they do sports here but they do fish... maybe they do trophies for big fish. ;D )

jeanna

I live near East Carolina university and Granger Stadium ,Home of the Pirates . We have a Large Selection OF Lucite Cubes ranging from Golf Ball to basketball cases ,even Football ones . there two piece .If there is an Interest i can get them and put up on Site if there not available in your area .

Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Yucca on November 10, 2009, 08:54:58 AM

Wow this is a big thread!

Just a construction idea for exploring HF JT operation:

Did you know the BC547 or 2N2222 transistor is very fast and can easily go up to 100 MHz.

A ferrous core will limit frequencies to kHz region.

My idea is to wind a ~5cm diam drive coil using magwire, fairly thin, around 28AWG , say 20 turns.

Then use this as a core to wind a spiraling trigger coil around it, 20 wraps spiraling round the whole circumference of the drive coil. Can use 28AWG again.

If you have 26AWG or 32AWG then go with that.

Make the trigger coil flyleads be 180 degrees away from the drive coil flyleads.

Then using a fast transistor build a JT round it, mount the transistor and resistor (use carbon resistor) in the middle of the drive coil, just have the legs bent toward relevant flyleads.

The builder could then rightly claim to have "The Fastest JT in the WORLD!" 8)

Then it could only be beaten by using an RF transistor and Litz wire coils.

edit:also try swapping coil designation, so use spiraling wire as drive and coreloop wire as trigger. Also try a small electrolytic cap over power input lines, again mounted in coil centre.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 10, 2009, 09:24:26 AM

HI YA BRO...

I THINK SLAYER007 HAS THE FASTEST!!

;D

THE 2N2222A DOES 300MHZ..

I HAVE A FEW COILS THAT ARE VHF!! NOT ON THE DRIVEING SIDE BUT ON THE OUTPUT SIDE...

YOU CAN HEAR THEM RAMP UP ..... :) UNTILL YOU NO LONGER CAN HEAR THEM .. THERE WAY OFF MY 20MHZ SCOPE

IST

THERE FAST LITTLE CRIDDERS ...

THE INPUT VOLTAGE AS I RECALL EFFECTS THE SPEED ... AS MY VOLTAGE DROPED IN MY SUPPLY I COULD GRADUALLY SEE THE WAVE ON MY SCOPE .

I HAVE 500 MORE CORES SMALL ONES TO WIND AND FIND THE BEST WINDING CONFIGURATION .. ;D

THOS WILL BE TESTED FIRST .. TO SEE WICH CHARGES THE ULTRA CAPS THE BEST .. THEN I WILL WIND THAT COIL CONFIG ON THE LARGE CORE ...

PROBLEM IS I ALREADY HAVE A WINDING CONFIG IN MIND FOR THE LARGE CORES .. AND BELEAVE ME THERE AINT NUTTIN HARD BOUT HOW THOSE ARE WOUND ;)

LARGEST FACTOR ALL WIRES ALL THE SAME LENGTH!! AND TWISTED AS 1 WIRE ... ALL THE WAY AROUND ... 1 LAP 2 LAPS 3 LAPS .... DEPENDS UPON THE FREQ YOU DESIRE ON THE OUTPUT SIDE .. ;)

@ J I WOULD LOVE TO WIND AND USE THE JEANNA AND MK DESIGN .. ;D

BUT I THINK FOR SOME REASON THE TURNS MAY NEED TO MATCH THE TURNS OF THE CORE IN MY CASE ... 5 TURNS AROUND MY TOROIDE ON INPUT IM THINKING CENTERTAPPED 5 TURN EACH WAY ... ST WAS DOING THIS WITH SPECTULAR RESAULTS SOME TIME AGO ... USEING THE DB107'S... :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on November 10, 2009, 09:37:12 AM

Quote from: Yucca on November 10, 2009, 08:54:58 AM
Wow this is a big thread!

Just a construction idea for exploring HF JT operation:

Did you know the BC547 or 2N2222 transistor is very fast and can easily go up to 100 MHz.

A ferrous core will limit frequencies to kHz region.

My idea is to wind a ~5cm diam drive coil using magwire, fairly thin, around 28AWG , say 20 turns.

Then use this as a core to wind a spiraling trigger coil around it, 20 wraps spiraling round the whole circumference of the drive coil. Can use 28AWG again.

If you have 26AWG or 32AWG then go with that.

Make the trigger coil flyleads be 180 degrees away from the drive coil flyleads.

Then using a fast transistor build a JT round it, mount the transistor and resistor (use carbon resistor) in the middle of the drive coil, just have the legs bent toward relevant flyleads.

The builder could then rightly claim to have "The Fastest JT in the WORLD!" 8)

Then it could only be beaten by using an RF transistor and Litz wire coils.

edit:also try swapping coil designation, so use spiraling wire as drive and coreloop wire as trigger. Also try a small electrolytic cap over power input lines, again mounted in coil centre.

i did something similar long ago, but i wound the coils directly on the transistor body. fast and small.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on November 10, 2009, 10:50:21 AM

Hi big m in ok can you please clarify about my question please?
I used slayer schematic and ideas for JT are there more modern one's regarding windings and schematic?
Any help please?
Thanks

Quote from: the_big_m_in_ok on November 09, 2009, 07:09:11 PM
guruji said: Your question above raises a question of its own in my mind:

@all
Do the new LCD or Plasma TVs had high voltage transformers like the picture tube sets?
(I'll have the chance in the future to acquire transformers from TVs and microwave ovens left on the streets by previous owners.)

--Lee

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Yucca on November 10, 2009, 12:29:03 PM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 10, 2009, 09:37:12 AM
i did something similar long ago, but i wound the coils directly on the transistor body. fast and small.

What frequency did you achieve?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 10, 2009, 12:35:07 PM

so for the winding configuration ... this is how i see it for now ...

AND ITS WILD ... TRUELY WILD I HAVE SEEN NOTHING LIKE IT EVER B4 ..

I WILL BE DESCRIBEING AND SHOWING A DRAWING OF THE COIL CONFIG..

YOU ALL WILL FIND THIS TO BE IMPRESSIVE ...

IST!

USEING THE CORE SHOWEN IN MY PICTURES I FOUND 5 TURN PRIMARY TO WORK JUST PERFECTLLY .. AS PER WINDING CONFIG.. SHOWEN .. NOW 37 WIRES TOTAL 36 ARE POWERED SUPPLYS AND RETURN TRIGGERS FOR LOAD MODE SPLIT IN 2 GROUPS FIRST GROUP OF 13 THE ODD WIRE LEFT ON THE PRIMARY DRIVEING SIDE OF THIS UNIT IS YOUR TRIGGER WIRE ... IT CONNECTS TO THE OTHER TRIGGER ON THE OTHER CORE ..

THEN THE SECOND GROUP OF WIRES IS 24 WIRES .. THIS IS LOAD MODE ...

WHAT ALSO HAPPINS HERE IS THE REASON FOR 24 WIRES THE COILS ARE RAN AT THERE NATURAL RUNNING FREQ .. IN LOAD MODE.. AND ALLOWED TO COLOIDE VIA OVERLAP FIREING .. ;D

HOW WILD DO YOU ALL WANT IT TO GET .. ?

THIS WILL COVER MOST OF THE IMEDIATE CORE ..

IM NOT DONE YET ... LOL

NOW THAT WE UNDERSTAND THE DRIVEING MOTOR ... WE ARE ALSO GOING TO SPIRAL THE SPINN OF THE COIL MOTOR THIS MEANS .....

HUMMMMM... LOL

I WILL ROTATE MY 12 FIREINGCOILS 2 PHASES CHUGG AND LOAD AROUND THE RING ... SO AS I GET THE EFFECT OF ROTATION IN WIREING ASWELL ... SO AS THEY FIRE

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 THEY TWIST ABOUT THE RING ...
1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 4 5 1 2

THIS IS A VERRY UNIQUE DEVICE ..

IST

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on November 10, 2009, 12:39:10 PM

Quote from: Yucca on November 10, 2009, 12:29:03 PM
What frequency did you achieve?

unknown, my crappy pda scope doesn't measure that high. :(

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 10, 2009, 02:09:40 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on November 10, 2009, 09:24:26 AM
HI YA BRO...

I THINK SLAYER007 HAS THE FASTEST!!

;D

...
...

@ J I WOULD LOVE TO WIND AND USE THE JEANNA AND MK DESIGN .. ;D

BUT I THINK FOR SOME REASON THE TURNS MAY NEED TO MATCH THE TURNS OF THE CORE IN MY CASE ... 5 TURNS AROUND MY TOROIDE ON INPUT IM THINKING CENTERTAPPED 5 TURN EACH WAY ... ST WAS DOING THIS WITH SPECTULAR RESAULTS SOME TIME AGO ... USEING THE DB107'S... :)

Oh good.
I would love to see this, ist.

I only used the numbers that I did because I wanted to end up with a total of between 42 and 48.
And, that was only because I have a bunch that I have made before in that range.
I wanted a real comparison, so almost everything had to be the same.
I even managed to use the same transistor as one other.

You can wind this with any number of total turns, but I made this be in 1/6, 2/6, 3/6 amounts in the different directions.

So start with the right number of final turns you want.
Divide by 6.

That number is your first number of turns to wind up (to the left of center)

Then twice that number (or the 2/6 number) and wind down the first side and cross over and continue to the end of the second side.

So far this is exactly like a MK1.

The final part is my part.
On the final segment you will wind the rest of the turns (the 3/6 number) and you will do that by clumping 3 turns carefully snuggled down between all the coils on ONLY the second side.

So,
In your case
5 up to the left
10 to the right going past the center
15 going back down the second side to the center again.

----
This is very easy to wind.
It is probably important that you already know the best operating number and base resistance of this core. But, perhaps it will be really good no matter what... I dunno.
I only made that first one last night!

=====
@yucca,

Did you see the cone I made?
I posted it on youtube a week ago. I made a cone of 2 wires wound together = bifilar, and connected them in a center tap (end of 1 to beginning of the other) and
added a toroid that had already been wound as a joule thief primary bifilar.
This toroid I connected in the usual JT way.
I placed the toroid core on the point of the cone and wrapped the non centertapped ends of the cone 2 times each around the core.
This produced an astonishing 17volts with a beautiful spiral swirling wave form.
Oh and it had a frequency of 500khz-660khz. (I could not get any closer on my scope therefore the very wide range)

The video is only 2 1/2 minutes.

After making that I realized that what I had made was a 4T secondary, plus a conical inductor which was in series to the secondary.

Your description reminds me of this thing. Have a look.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84jr0GlYvYA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84jr0GlYvYA)

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 10, 2009, 02:15:44 PM

IM SOOOO GLAD FOR YOU BEING HERE J

IM REALLY HAPPY YOU JOINED US ON THIS THRED!

THE CREDETS FOR THIS DEVICE GO TO ALL INVOLVED ... I WILL BUILD .. TEST ... I DONT DO DRAWINGS WELL

BUT THE END RESULT THE OU RING .. IS THE PERFECT GIFT

DEVELOPED BY US 4 U ALL

THE OVERUNITY TEAM! ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 10, 2009, 02:26:38 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on November 10, 2009, 12:35:07 PM
so for the winding configuration ... this is how i see it for now ...

...

USING THE CORE SHOWN IN MY PICTURES I FOUND 5 TURN PRIMARY TO WORK JUST PERFECTLY .. AS PER WINDING CONFIG.. SHOWN .. NOW 37 WIRES TOTAL 36 ARE POWERED SUPPLIES AND RETURN TRIGGERS FOR LOAD MODE SPLIT IN 2 GROUPS FIRST GROUP OF 13 THE ODD WIRE LEFT ON THE PRIMARY DRIVING SIDE OF THIS UNIT IS YOUR TRIGGER WIRE ... IT CONNECTS TO THE OTHER TRIGGER ON THE OTHER CORE ..

THEN THE SECOND GROUP OF WIRES IS 24 WIRES .. THIS IS LOAD MODE ...

WHAT ALSO HAPPENS HERE IS THE REASON FOR 24 WIRES THE COILS ARE RAN AT THERE NATURAL RUNNING FREQ .. IN LOAD MODE.. AND ALLOWED TO COLLIDE VIA OVERLAP FIRING .. ;D

...

NOW THAT WE UNDERSTAND THE DRIVING MOTOR ... WE ARE ALSO GOING TO SPIRAL THE SPIN OF THE COIL MOTOR THIS MEANS .....

HUMMMMM... LOL

I WILL ROTATE MY 12 FIRING COILS 2 PHASES CHUGG AND LOAD AROUND THE RING ... SO AS I GET THE EFFECT OF ROTATION IN WIREING ASWELL ... SO AS THEY FIRE

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 THEY TWIST ABOUT THE RING ...
1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 4 5 1 2

THIS IS A VERRY UNIQUE DEVICE ..

IST

Ist,

I am thinking this is how the central core sitting on top of my cone should be wound.

I will try this spiral a little, but I am (as usual) a little unsure about some of your description.

Is chugg a real word? or are you implying pushing hard at the movement?
Or is chugg the trigger?

I believe you are using an external switching device to fire the separate wires. Is this correct?

Also, you have 2 cores that are essentially like the one in the pic?

Thank you,

jeanna

edit
Thanks for your last comment ist.
I only name things for convenience in identification (and for keeping within a 5 letter maximum if possible ;))
I agree completely.

Credit goes to everybody... absolutely everybody.
Even those who have not actually shared a device. The attention and thoughts all add to helping us come up with the prize.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 10, 2009, 02:45:59 PM

THANKS J

CHUGG LOL IS LIKE IDLE IN YOUR CAR .... TIC SPIN TIC SPIN BUT 12 AT ONCE ... MANY MANY SPINS ABOUT THE CORE .. 1 FIRE.. BEING THERE 12 COILS ROTATING IN WIREING CONFIGRATION

WILL INDUCE MUCH TWIST .. WITH IN THE CORE MATERIAL ..

YES THERE WILL BE MANY SWITCHES .. MANY .. BUT I DONT SEE WHY WE WILL NOT HAVE QUITE AN OUTPUT FROM THE RING ALONE NEVERMIND THE TIME FACTOR ..

IST

I DID HAVE 2 CORES I NEED TO BUY SOME MORE I HAVE 1 RIGHT NOW ... BASICALLY THE SECOND IS IDENTICAL TO THE FIRST .. IT ONLY DUBBLES THE CHARGEING OUTPUT .. I CHOOSE 2 CUZ THEY FIT NICELY IN THE CASE .. ;D PLUS I WANT THIS FAST CHARGE ... ;)

I HAVE A OLD FRIEND OF MINE HE DOSENT COME HERE MUCH ANYMORE .. HOWEVER I WILL SAY IT WAS HIS WORDS THAT KEPT ME MOVEING ALONG MY PATH

AND I DID SAY 1 OF MY DEVICES WILL BE NAMED AFTER HIM ! IT IS THE GREAT THINKERS IN THIS WORLD THAT KEEP THE YOUNG THINKERS THINKING .... LOL

PEACE!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on November 10, 2009, 02:59:00 PM

Hi Innovation station can you please share a schematic and an original JT winding as you're saying with us please?
It seem that you found something but you're holding your invention to yourself. :)
Ok it would be nice to share.
Thanks

Quote from: innovation_station on November 10, 2009, 02:45:59 PM
THANKS J

CHUGG LOL IS LIKE IDLE IN YOUR CAR .... TIC SPIN TIC SPIN BUT 12 AT ONCE ... MANY MANY SPINS ABOUT THE CORE .. 1 FIRE.. BEING THERE 12 COILS ROTATING IN WIREING CONFIGRATION

WILL INDUCE MUCH TWIST .. WITH IN THE CORE MATERIAL ..

YES THERE WILL BE MANY SWITCHES .. MANY .. BUT I DONT SEE WHY WE WILL NOT HAVE QUITE AN OUTPUT FROM THE RING ALONE NEVERMIND THE TIME FACTOR ..

IST

I DID HAVE 2 CORES I NEED TO BUY SOME MORE I HAVE 1 RIGHT NOW ... BASICALLY THE SECOND IS IDENTICAL TO THE FIRST .. IT ONLY DUBBLES THE CHARGEING OUTPUT .. I CHOOSE 2 CUZ THEY FIT NICELY IN THE CASE .. ;D PLUS I WANT THIS FAST CHARGE ... ;)

I HAVE A OLD FRIEND OF MINE HE DOSENT COME HERE MUCH ANYMORE .. HOWEVER I WILL SAY IT WAS HIS WORDS THAT KEPT ME MOVEING ALONG MY PATH

AND I DID SAY 1 OF MY DEVICES WILL BE NAMED AFTER HIM ! IT IS THE GREAT THINKERS IN THIS WORLD THAT KEEP THE YOUNG THINKERS THINKING .... LOL

PEACE!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 10, 2009, 03:12:22 PM

IM SHAREING ALL OF MY WORK AS I HAVE ALWAYS DONE ...

CURRENTLY MY SHOP IS UNDER CONSTRUCTION ... I DONT HAVE MY MATERIALS IN MY HANDS YET ..

THIS IS WHY I SAID 2 WEEKS TO ALLOW TIME FOR BUILDERS TO PURCHISE MATERIALS THIS IS WHY I LISTED OPERATION INSTRUCTION OF THE DEVICE MATERIALS LIST .. BUT MOST IMPORTANTALLY THE CAPS BECAUSE AS GADGET POSTED THAT SOME BUGGER BOUGHT ALMOST ALL OF EM ...

HUMMMMMMM THINK THEY READ MY WORDS ON THIS SITE .... LOL

THEY WONT LAST LONG IF YOU HAVE MONEY TO BUY THE CAPS BUY THEM YOU WILL NOT LOOSE I GARENTEE IT!

I THINK GADGET HAS DONE SOME TESTS .... :D ;D

BUT IM NOT IN THE RIGHT TO TALK OF WHAT EVER HE HAS DONE .. I HAVE THE RIGHT TO SPEEK OF MY WORK AND MY IDEAS TO MAKE MY DEVICE WICH IS NOT INFACT MINE .. ;D

ASK ME MY NAME I TELL YOU IT DOSENT MATTER ITS ALL THE SAME .. ;)

LOL

I WILL NOT HORD I ALWAYS SHARE I DID NOT RELEASE THE VERRY ESSENCE OF IT AS IT IS QUITE SIMPLE THE ANSWER ... AND THE TRUTH IN THE MATTER ....

I NEVER SET UP THE STAGE .... I ONLY DANCED!

IST

ABOUT THE SCHEM .. I WILL SAY THIS IT CHANGES ... AND MINE WILL BE USELESS TO YOU UNLESS YOU USE THE EXACT SAME CORES ...

REASON I POSTED THE LINK ... ;)

OTHER WIZE MY SCRIBBLES ARE USELESS.. YOU MUST TUNE TO CORE....!!! THAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT! FROM THERE ALL ELSE IS BASED ... :)

YOU SEE WHAT I MEAN ... ASK MK1 HE WILL TELL YOU THE SAME ...

BTW HE SHOULD BE SHOWING UP ABOUT ANYTIME NOW ...

ANYONE HERD FROM HIM?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 10, 2009, 05:09:55 PM

so now that you all HAD A TASTE OF WHAT IS TO COME ...

LETS REALLY SCALE IT DOWN........ LETS GO GOLDMINE...!!!

LOL

NOT QUITE QUANTUM YET ;)

ROUND UP 2 GOLD MINES FOR A PRE VIEW BUILD AND WINDING CONFIG OF A REALLY SIMPLE POWER RING ..

2 WIRES ARE POWERED ON 2 RINGS I FORGET IF WE DETURNANED THE BEST # OF TURNS ON THE PRIMARY SIDE OF THE 1" GOLDMINES OR NOT... IM NOT SET UP TO TUNE BUT I COULD WIND A FEW SMALL GOLDMINES ... THERE QUICK TO DO ..

1 TRANSISTOR AND ANY NUMBER OF OUTPUTS YOU WANT ... WIRES MUST BE INSULATED .. AND TWISTED AS 1 WIRE .. NO LEDS LEAVE THE BACK SIDE OF THE DRIVEING TRANSISTOR ALONE ..

CAT 5 WILL WORK MONONITOR CABLE OR PRINTER CABLE WILL WORK GREAT.. YOU CAN EATHER CONNECT OUTPUTS FROM RING TO RING OR BRIDGE SEPERATLY

PULSE 1 COIL AND HARVEST FROM MANY ..

IST!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on November 10, 2009, 09:03:36 PM

Scale it down to the atom. Electrons when they are being particles exhibit orbital momentum. They are tethered to the atoms neucleus. You excite the electrons by inputting some photon energy. Again think of the photon as particles with velocity and inertia. If the electron gains a little bit more inertia than the tether can withstand then it snaps. You get your input energy plus the energy stored in the ELECTRON ORBITAL MOMENTUM. This is Teslas big secret. Hell he even called his first energy collector an ionizer. Ions are heavier than electrons. As the electrons are accelerated one way the ions are accelerated another. This causes seperation of charge. Like when you have a charged up capacitor or the layers in the ionosphere. The ions and electrons can be manipulated into a coherent charged field and recombined given the right LOAD path. Condensation of a plasma pure and simple back into atoms. Highfrequency and high voltage seems to work well on air.
First you get ozone then you get plasma. Lots of forms of matter to be recognized yet. The periodic table is a joke.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 10, 2009, 09:15:54 PM

Hi everybody,
I am following what ist is doing etc.

I am also following something that is very curious.
My grandfather was given an afghanistan-ish kurd-ish rug on the occasion of his retirement sometime in the early fifties.
My grandmother gave it to me many years later. I have always stared at the curious figures on it, knowing there was something important buried in it.

Anyone who examined this rug said it was pretty ordinary for the type.
In fact, you could see that the figures were sort of 'canned' and the rug was not designed for its size.
It was just repeated to the required size then ended.

So, what that means to ME is that the glyphs are so ancient nobody even the weavers knows what the meaning is.
I was struck by its similarity to the crop circle response to the aricebo message.

Then I looked at it again.
Now, I think those figures were somehow embedded into my brain and this idea I have about the double cone with the toroid at the waist comes from this rug source.

So, for many months I have had the idea to make it and began a couple of weeks ago.
I thought you would like to see one glyph of the form itself,
then one more with what looks like the man at the bottom of the aricebo response with something on his head getting or giving a ray communication to 2 of these devices with 3 orbs of some kind above him.

I think this is a flying carpet!
;D ;D

jeanna

edit add: I will add the pic of the aricebo reply in case someone has not seen it or examined it much.
Notice on the very bottom is a low resolution pic of the telescope they used to send the message.
I am not sure how many of these figures you can see on my rug pix, but the rug has many of these all over. so just for fun, here is the cc.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 10, 2009, 09:35:33 PM

Quote from: sparks on November 10, 2009, 09:03:36 PM
Scale it down to the atom. Electrons when they are being particles exhibit orbital momentum. They are tethered to the atoms neucleus. You excite the electrons by inputting some photon energy. Again think of the photon as particles with velocity and inertia. If the electron gains a little bit more inertia than the tether can withstand then it snaps. You get your input energy plus the energy stored in the ELECTRON ORBITAL MOMENTUM. This is Teslas big secret. Hell he even called his first energy collector an ionizer. Ions are heavier than electrons. As the electrons are accelerated one way the ions are accelerated another. This causes seperation of charge. Like when you have a charged up capacitor or the layers in the ionosphere. The ions and electrons can be manipulated into a coherent charged field and recombined given the right LOAD path. Condensation of a plasma pure and simple back into atoms. Highfrequency and high voltage seems to work well on air.
First you get ozone then you get plasma. Lots of forms of matter to be recognized yet. The periodic table is a joke.

SO ORBIT..... CAN WE STICK TO EARTHLY ENGERIES FIRST... ? THERE MORE TO ORBIT AND I HONESTLY DONT WANT TO TOUCH IT RIGHT NOW .. I DO KNOW THERE COPANYS OUT THERE USEING IT ... AND IT TIES A TONNE OF SHIT TOGATHER .... NOT RIGHT NOW ... LOL

BUT GIVER IF THAT IS YOUR DESIRE ..

IM NO ONE TO STOP ANYONE ...

IST!

J TOTALLY COOL! WE ARE LUKEY TO BE AROUND YOU .... ;) HOWS THAT FOR AN ANSWER .....

FUNNY YOU BRING THIS SORT OF THING UP ... LOL I TOO HAVE A BLANKET .. IT WAS A BABY BLANKET .. OF MY FATHERES FATHERS FATHERS .... IT IS HAND SPUN OF WOOL WITH MUCH DETAIL ... AND I BET IT TELLS A TALE ASWELL OR I WOULD NOT HAVE IT ... AS DO MY GARNETS AS DOES MY ACLOMY CASE .. AS DO.... MANY THINGS ... I ACTUALLY WONDER IF THEY ARE THINGS TO TRIGGER EVENTS ALONG OUR PATH HERE ON EARTH AS WE REDISCOVER WHO WE ARE ... :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on November 10, 2009, 09:46:06 PM

That carpets neat. Even has an accretion disc like the sun and some of our larger planets. The Earth looks like this when the billions of tons of hydrogen circulating about the magnetic field lines at the north pole are accelerated by a solar pulse. They fly off into space in the form of a fountain due to the compression of the magnetosphere. The accelerated ions illuminate the magnetic vortex the Earth has going at either pole and extending many Earth radi into space.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 10, 2009, 09:55:07 PM

Quote from: sparks on November 10, 2009, 09:03:36 PM
... If the electron gains a little bit more inertia than the tether can withstand then it snaps. You get your input energy plus the energy stored in the ELECTRON ORBITAL MOMENTUM.

The ions and electrons can be manipulated into a coherent charged field and recombined given the right LOAD path. Condensation of a plasma pure and simple back into atoms. Highfrequency and high voltage seems to work well on air.
First you get ozone then you get plasma.

Don't you think this is what is happening every time there is a flyback?
I do.

Plus, there is probably the electrons around the surface of the wire to figure in here too.
It makes a lot of sense to me that the so called electric field is made up of charged copper electrons.
And they are what turns on my 30 leds not the voltage from the battery, because that is not enough to light even one led.

thank you Sparks.
;),

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 10, 2009, 10:02:23 PM

Quote from: sparks on November 10, 2009, 09:46:06 PM
That carpets neat.

yeah.

Quote
The accelerated ions illuminate the magnetic vortex the Earth has going at either pole and extending many Earth radi into space.

There are 2 borders that look like swirling spirals. Maybe this is the meaning of one of them
One of then has one of those boxy "X's" in the center of each spiral. It could well be a vortex. cool.

But maybe not just around the earth maybe it is everywhere and the way movement occurs.
That is how I think of vortexes in general, anyway.

Or really it is what I am thinking the hourglass with toroid at the waist will produce... 2 vortices moving in a coherent pattern.

I better wind some more!

thanks.

jeanna

Yes ist,
I wonder that too.

----
I just took a screenshot of the rug pic. The resolution had to be very high and I had to make it very small for this, but you can still see some of the detail and the amount of these figures.
thanks grandma!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on November 10, 2009, 10:24:38 PM

The jule thief is a high frequency happening. The gain in the formation of plasma and it's condensation in a spark gap stored in an electrically resonant circuit and drawn at low frequency is Tesla's gain from electron angular momentum. Copper is a negative plasma with the majority of free electrons boiled to the skin. These electrons have lost their angular momentum and must have energy input into them and are only good for transmission of inertia. They are a poor scource of preaccelerated electrons. More like a cloud than a wind. Good scource of free electrons to play with though. There is intrinsic angular momentum to the electrons also. Left and right hand spins. Perhaps vortices. Never got this far with any experiments but I did do the plasma deal. When electrons are accelerated there is a doppler effect also. Xrays are the result of the acceleration of electrons. Almost like emwaves/photonenergy is the information exchanged between moving charged mass. The magnetic field is like the stuff that gets displaced by the accelerated charged mass and communicates the movement whereas the electrical field communicates the position.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 10, 2009, 11:18:17 PM

Quote from: sparks on November 10, 2009, 10:24:38 PM
The jule thief is a high frequency happening. The gain in the formation of plasma and it's condensation in a spark gap stored in an electrically resonant circuit and drawn at low frequency is Tesla's gain from electron angular momentum. Copper is a negative plasma with the majority of free electrons boiled to the skin. These electrons have lost their angular momentum and must have energy input into them and are only good for transmission of inertia. They are a poor scource of preaccelerated electrons. More like a cloud than a wind. Good scource of free electrons to play with though. There is intrinsic angular momentum to the electrons also. Left and right hand spins. Perhaps vortices. Never got this far with any experiments but I did do the plasma deal. When electrons are accelerated there is a doppler effect also. Xrays are the result of the acceleration of electrons. Almost like emwaves/photonenergy is the information exchanged between moving charged mass. The magnetic field is like the stuff that gets displaced by the accelerated charged mass and communicates the movement whereas the electrical field communicates the position.

ILL BE THE FIRST TO STAND BACK AND SAY .. DUDE ... WE NEED TO GET YOU A WHITE BOARD A CAMERA CREW .... AND ARRANGE AN INTERVIEW ... LOL

SPARKS BRO YOU GOT SOME DEEP UNDERSTANDING CRAMMED IN THERE ... LOL

YOU NEED TO BUILD SOMETHING ... WITH US ... OR HELP TO EXPLAIN THIS WHERE EVERYONE WILL UNDERSTAND .. ILL BE THE FRIST SAY I DONOT YET FULLY UNDERSTAND .. BUT WE LEARN AS WE GO

AND I HAVE LEARNED YOU NEED A CAMERA CREW!... LOL

IST!

AND NOW A SONG .... FOR J'S CARPET... ITS TIME TO DRIVE THIS RIDE ....

MAGIC !'S

STEPENWOLF MAGIC CARPET RIDE..

I LIKE TO DREAM YES YES RIGHT BETWEEN THE SOUND MACHINE ......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCxOpk0r2Vw

WHO KNOWS WHAT WE WILL FIND ON THIS CARPET RIDE...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on November 10, 2009, 11:23:53 PM

Electron's may have many states. Torsional Particle Angular Cool video for a cool rug. :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hmRBiSshus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 11, 2009, 12:03:43 AM

Wow, thank you Sparks. Number 4 and 5 have all these toroids forming inside them!!

@ist,
Maybe the waist toroid on my hourglass should be wound like the one you have just made.
On these walter russell videos the toroid that forms appears to swirl around like the wires of your winding.
This is getting really exciting!
I will try that when the other half is finished. I plan to leave enough wire to wind the waist toroid with a bit more than just 4 turns.

Thank you everybody.

wow,

edit
add
I was inspired to make the conical joule thief because after I 'studied' the Nassim Haramein lectures and dvds I realized he was surely right and I thought therefore that the double cone that meets at the center and grows outward from the center is the most probable form for the best output.
By just reflecting what nature does and making my next joule thief have those proportions and shapes, maybe I can get somewhere else!

The video number 5 shows all those cones and toroids moving forward in space... like around the edges of the rug, if you look at it the right way.

jeanna

yup ist... a very magic carpet ride.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on November 11, 2009, 12:07:13 AM

sorry to bother you folks with this...
but tonight i was messing with my little strobe circuit or whatever you want to call it...
well i got to pulse in the high hz now but i cant get my hand held scope with in 2 foot close to it
its like it is giving off some crazy radio that messes with electronics
it just shows 5.31 khz and 80 volts with a half sine wave pos...
i'm using a 0.1 mfd cap now and it sounds kool if you run it thru a 1:1 toroid
it sounds like a hv transformer in a substation
my toroid was showing like 12 volts thru a bridge but there was alot sparks hooking a load to it
i reduced it down to 5 volts and thought... i will linked 6 of those 265000 mcd 100ma leds
up to it and boom there went 15 $.. so i cussed for 10 mins and walked away

any suggestions

oh .. if you guys try to build this dont touch the output...i bump my arm into it the other night
and got some burns..hahahaha

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 11, 2009, 12:33:38 AM

Quote from: kooler on November 11, 2009, 12:07:13 AM

... there went 15 $.. so i cussed for 10 mins and walked away

any suggestions

I am sorry about your lights, kooler.
You are in very good company. I mean why would you want to be the only one who didn't drop a bunch of dead leds down the trash? ;)

QuoteSuggestions?

What is your starting voltage?
Is it 1.2 volts?
Are you using a battery or a pulse generator connected to the wall?

Are those neons still in there?
use a fluoro tube?

only try with cheap leds?

Always use a resistor before you add a led? I don't but I think the problems you are having are why I stayed away from the spark making set up. I bought the ig coil, but never felt like risking my machines.

I am glad your scope is ok and it didn't get fried.

I made a comparison of dmm voltage to scope voltage and the dmm was usually down by one decimal place or more.
So, if the dmm said I had 5 volts I might have 75v or even more.

out of ideas,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 11, 2009, 12:44:50 AM

kooler:

Jeanna is correct. Most, if not all, of us have fried many leds. Some good, expensive leds to be sure but, this is the cost of progress. I thought I was "safe" putting 6 high output super bright leds in my circuit that should have only put out about 25 volts. Well, my JT fried those suckers in about 15 seconds. Man, the smell was terrible but they were very bright for a little bit though. This was when I first got a clue that my digital meter was not to be trusted on the real output of the JT.

Now, I load them up with way more than they could possibly do and then, remove some and go down from there. Still, I may end up frying some more before this is over. Welcome to the fried LED club. You are in good company.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on November 11, 2009, 12:52:22 AM

i lit a 4 watt nite lite bulb with this for 5 seconds and then it lock down oscillation on the scr circuit so i unpluged my AA battery before it blew the scr
atleast i saved 0.49 cent....haha
as for the scope i cant get near the circuit to use it..
it starts to read it 2 feet away..weird

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: RAF on November 11, 2009, 01:06:12 AM

ï»¿Well it has been a while for me!
When this group was only a couple of hundred pages long,
an event beyond my control took most of my spare time.

Nice to see the group still going â€œffeuuuâ€ lol
it is a long read to catch up.

@ jeanna

I remember you mentioning the cone shape a while back,
and I too think that may be the ticket.
I like to think of the vortex,
after all it is all around us in nature.
I also like working with the Joule Thief
because it is a simple way to oscillate a conductive coil.

Anyway I at the risk of over stepping my bounds,
I thought you mite like to look at this site if you have not already.
I seem to end up at it with a lot of my Internet F-E search requests.

http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/torsion.htm
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/tripole.htm
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/magvtx.htm

now that the weather is again changing â€œand it seems to soonâ€
I should have some indoor time to play around with this again.

congrats to all some interesting stuff going on.
Long live the JT thread, nice going Pirate Bill

p.s. i love the rug jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 11, 2009, 01:59:16 AM

@ RAF:

Thank you sir. Welcome back.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 11, 2009, 11:05:58 AM

welcome RAF!

it seams like i should know you .. but i cannot say i do as your name RAF!

NONE THE LESS

WELCOME BACK! IT IS MUCH APREACIATED YOU JUST ABOUT TOUCHING ON BOUNDRIES

THIS IM SURE WILL AID THINGS ALONG THERE PATH...

some things seem too soon and others not soon enough ...

perhaps our orbit in space is actually decreaseing ... hence our year changeing .. the weather does seam odd ...

well theres a few things i could mention that might spur some intrest .. and i wonded what may be the effects on earth there of ?

first question ... what might the quote from the bible mean ... GOD WILL SHAKE THE EARTH LIKE A HUT?

this has tumbbled round my mind from time to time ...

i do infact have an answer .. RESONANCE! ;)

ill leave it there ...

ist

and kooler SHOUT THAT ... NEVER FEEL LIKE YOU ARE BOTHERING ANYONE OF US!

THIS IS AN OPENSOURCE TEAM ... APROCHING PUBLIC ORGANIZATION ... OR TRYING TO ... LOL

BUT WE ALL HAVE A COMMON GOAL AND IT ONLY MAKES SENCE TO ALL WORK TOGATHER TOWARD OUR GOAL...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 11, 2009, 12:22:58 PM

@ kooler

Quote from: kooler on November 11, 2009, 12:07:13 AM
any suggestions

You probably know as much as me about this, but, LEDs are damaged by even small reverse voltage levels so it is always best to put a rectifier diode like the 1N4007 in series with the LEDs to block any reverse current.

I am still waiting for my SCRs to be delivered. Lighting a filament bulb seems impossible. You must have a really good transformer to be able to get that much continuous power out. The problem I have had is that the Joule thief puts out pulses of high current. These start to heat up the filament but it then cools off again before the next pulse and so the bulb never gets bright. LEDs turn on very quickly so it is easy to get them to full brightness within the duration of one pulse.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 11, 2009, 12:25:57 PM

SPARK GAP ... ;) HV AND A LOWER VALUE CAP

IST

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on November 11, 2009, 05:08:36 PM

@ kooler
You are probably producing excessive and spurious RF energy along side the magnetic fields. It depends on how stable or unstable the circuit is! instability gives rise to spiky waveforms which create harmonic frequencies. This is the reason why your scope and digital meters play up as they do. In your case I reckon you have certainly got something going!! These pulses will be both + & -ve and will certainly see LED's off. xee suggested a series diode, and together with Jeanna's series resistor idea will help, or as pirate does... add more LED's. Filament lamps are relatively low resistance when cold and are loading up your circuit! How about placing a multiband radio within the vicinity and tune across the bands? would be interesting to know the results. Keep up the good work all

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 12, 2009, 08:28:08 AM

Quote from: kooler on November 11, 2009, 12:07:13 AM
sorry to bother you folks with this...
but tonight i was messing with my little strobe circuit or whatever you want to call it...
well i got to pulse in the high hz now but i cant get my hand held scope with in 2 foot close to it
its like it is giving off some crazy radio that messes with electronics
it just shows 5.31 khz and 80 volts with a half sine wave pos...
i'm using a 0.1 mfd cap now and it sounds kool if you run it thru a 1:1 toroid
it sounds like a hv transformer in a substation
my toroid was showing like 12 volts thru a bridge but there was alot sparks hooking a load to it
i reduced it down to 5 volts and thought... i will linked 6 of those 265000 mcd 100ma leds
up to it and boom there went 15 $.. so i cussed for 10 mins and walked away

any suggestions

oh .. if you guys try to build this dont touch the output...i bump my arm into it the other night
and got some burns..hahahaha

Oh we know about Led burnouts . when you hit over 50 of the Expensive .5 watt 5 chip ones then you just cry for 10 mins ;) Blowed a dang many of them and still do . S**T happens .
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 12, 2009, 12:41:54 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on November 12, 2009, 08:28:08 AM
S*!*T happens .
Gadget

;D

AS IT IS RIGHT NOW... NOTICE HOW THE SITE WENT DOWN ..... ::)

YEA ANYHOW ...

GADGET CARE TO SHARE ANY EXPAIRMENTS YOU HAVE DONE WITH THE ULTRA CAPS .... OR BILL .. IF YOUR NOT TOO BUSY ... JUST TO PREP ALL THE NEW COMERS MYSELF INCLUDED .. ;D

LOL

IST! IM STILL LAUGHING AT WILLS COMMENT ... LOL .. HE HAS NOT COME BACK ... LOL ;D :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on November 12, 2009, 07:49:59 PM

I have not had much time to work on building anything lately
I did learn something today that might be helpful for the people working on ISTs project.
I have been working on how to get to the self charging state using less parts .
My first attempts took around 9 toroids with most of them hooked up for both flyback and feedback .

Before if I hooked a large winding up for feedback ( or a LARGE coil ) the whole JT would usually shut down .
Today I tried putting a cap in series with the coil
The cap limits the amount of current that is fed back .

I found that I can regulate the voltage in the primary circuit to some extent by changing the cap limiting the current

I am now running a JT made from a flyback transformer core.
I am powering 2 LED arrays at full brightness ......one of them is 60 LEDs the other 90 LEDs
According to the manufacturer both arrays use 5 watts ( with the original circuits )

I have one extra winding on the core that is about the same size as the windings lighting the arrays ( each array is on its own winding )
I have one other coil that is being used for feedback .

I am sure that if I added another winding to the core and limited it with a cap I could run these lights and charge the battery with no external coils .....other than the JT itself .

This technique should be easy with ISTs design .
WIth his plan of winding quite a few wires of the same length together as a secondary is ideal for this .
Just use as many of the wires as you need for feedback ........the power from all the rest of the wires is FREE

I am powering my JT with a 12 V battery .
The battery had been powering the JT for a while before I started this setup .
It started at 10.95 V It is now 11.13 after 2 hours
The output of my feedback winding has gone up from 245 V to 249 V
I am limiting the feedback current with 3 25pF caps in parrallel
I am feeding the power back to the cap on my Jesus charger .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on November 12, 2009, 08:19:53 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on November 12, 2009, 07:49:59 PM
I have not had much time to work on building anything lately
I did learn something today that might be helpful for the people working on ISTs project.
I have been working on how to get to the self charging state using less parts .
My first attempts took around 9 toroids with most of them hooked up for both flyback and feedback .

Before if I hooked a large winding up for feedback ( or a LARGE coil ) the whole JT would usually shut down .
Today I tried putting a cap in series with the coil
The cap limits the amount of current that is fed back .

I found that I can regulate the voltage in the primary circuit to some extent by changing the cap limiting the current

I am now running a JT made from a flyback transformer core.
I am powering 2 LED arrays at full brightness ......one of them is 60 LEDs the other 90 LEDs
According to the manufacturer both arrays use 5 watts ( with the original circuits )

I have one extra winding on the core that is about the same size as the windings lighting the arrays ( each array is on its own winding )
I have one other coil that is being used for feedback .

I am sure that if I added another winding to the core and limited it with a cap I could run these lights and charge the battery with no external coils .....other than the JT itself .

This technique should be easy with ISTs design .
WIth his plan of winding quite a few wires of the same length together as a secondary is ideal for this .
Just use as many of the wires as you need for feedback ........the power from all the rest of the wires is FREE

I am powering my JT with a 12 V battery .
The battery had been powering the JT for a while before I started this setup .
It started at 10.95 V It is now 11.13 after 2 hours
The output of my feedback winding has gone up from 245 V to 249 V
I am limiting the feedback current with 3 25pF caps in parrallel
I am feeding the power back to the cap on my Jesus charger .

gary

As the battery voltage goes up this ciircuit is getting stronger.
In about a half hour the battery voltage went from 11.08 to 11.12
The voltage of my feedback coil jumped to 399 V
The feedback must be only using the spikes.
I hooked up my cheap DMM across the cap in my Jesus charger .
On AC it only reads 2 mV ...... DC less than 1mV
I would try my better meter across the feedback cap ..........but I do not want to touch anything for a while .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 12, 2009, 08:30:52 PM

Sounds good gary . I believe you found what i did im so many experiments . Keep up teh great work .

Heres a littel project enclosure and a neat toy to make from a light bulb
Its a Trick Light bulb . make your own glass bulb here http://www.metacafe.com/watch/975794/mysterious_lightbulb_hack/
http://www.wonderhowto.com/how-to/video/how-to-make-a-magic-lightbulb-271313/
stuff a bead JT in there with a super bright 1 watter and there ya go . Look like the real thing and great diffusion .

Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 12, 2009, 08:31:35 PM

Gary:

Great job! This is very good information for us. I don't blame you for leaving it alone for now. Please keep us posted as I think this is very significant.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 12, 2009, 08:42:52 PM

GARY... 8) 8)

LOVE YA MAN!

THANK YOU! IS THERE ANY WAY YOU CAN MAKE A YOUTUBE VIDEO ... ;D

IST! :)

GUYS I HOPE TO BE ORDERING SOME MORE OF THE SAME LARGE CORES ... IT IS POSSIBLE THAT WE GET A DISCOUNT BY VOLUME THIS IM NOT SURE ... I DID NOT BUY THE ONES I HAVE ... THEY WERE SUPPLYED ... LOL

BUT I THINK THE COST AS I RECALL WAS SOMETHING LIKE 40 DOLLARS... THEASE ARE RATED 2000V IM ASSUMEING WE CAN MAKE EM GRUNT IF YA KNOW WHAT I MEAN ... GARY THIS CORE IS PERFECT FOR WHAT YOUR DOING ...

ANYHOW I NEED MORE THOUGHT I WOULD LET YOU ALL KNOW WHAT ONES IM BUYING INCASE YOU WANT TO OFF GRID YOUR HOUSE ......

;)

JUST GET THE LARGEST W CORE 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 12, 2009, 09:46:29 PM

Hi everybody,
I have made another cone as much like the first one as my eye could tell.

I tried to make this connected end to beginning as the first one is, but nodice (=the voltage was the same as without the additional coil).
So I connected the 2 wires at the bottom together and the 2 at the top went one to the scope and the other to the other cone coil.

The voltage was 17v on the first cone coil with 4 turns around the toroid,

After adding the second cone coil with the wires connected as described, the voltage became 38v.

I could not get it higher with anything I tried until I wound one more turn of each wire around the central toroid which makes it a total of 6 turns.

Now the voltage is 43v
This is a pretty good amount of voltage for 6 turns =~ 7 volts per turn.

I purposely made the second cone coil with a lot of wire at the tip because the first one has no more to go around the toroid than these 6 turns.

So, as I watch an eric dollard video this evening, I will be changing the first cone coil for the second and I will wind as much as I can around the central toroid.

I looked for fluctuations in the magnetic field as shown with a compass and I can see nothing.

But this is really showing what the addition of a series inductor (even withOUT a capacitor) can do to add to the original.
Also the cone nature is surely adding more than a plain coil, but that is still to be proven.

BTW the basic jtc is a
2N3904 transistor
tor-23 (10/$1 from allelectronics)
5T,8T like the 'widow' primary
this is 5T,8T,6T plus 2 series inductors bifilar wound and double conical shape (= hourglass of unknowable number of turns. ;)

Now, before eric dollard, I will read what you guys have been reporting today.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 12, 2009, 10:03:32 PM

J

I KNOW YOU HAVE WORKED WITH A JT AND AN INDUCTOR .. HAVE YOU TRYED TO SEE IT MAKES SOME KIND OF FEEDBACK MAGIC .. MAGNERIT OR OTHERWIZE? BETWEEN THE INDUCTOR AND TOROIDE ...

JUST THOUGHT MAYBE YOU TRYED THAT

IS

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 12, 2009, 10:53:24 PM

Wow Gary,

This is great news and great info!!
Congratulations!

And well done!

---
@ist,
No.
I can only muster a little bit of interest in that direction.
I have made a start by making the no bearing bedini battery recharger motor.
Today I procured a broken bicycle at the thrift store for free.
Since it comes with its own stand so to speak, I will use it to make the original bicycle wheel bedini motor and recharge batteries or... maybe it will give me some better ideas toward that goal but I am sure Gary or some other person who has been focusing on that aspect, will show us the way.

In a big way, I would rather see this be done with a joule thief. The bedini motor is not as cool a circuit as this joule thief IMO, but it is having its rewards. And it does provide a little torque...

My MO (= modus operandi = what makes me tick) is to find out HOW things work. That is the best explanation I can offer for my lackluster interest in recharging batteries to prove ou.

Thank you ,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 12, 2009, 11:06:13 PM

VERRY KOOL J

GOT YOU SOMETHING TO TOY AROUND WITH IN YOUR MIND SINCE YOU GOT THE FREE BIKE ...

;D ;D ;D ;D

YOULL LOVE IT ... I JUST KNO ;)

I HAD THIS IDEA BOUT 6 MONTHS AGO ... WELL MAKE A MOTOR GEN BIKE USEING MAGNETS ON THE SPOKES AND OPPOSING ELECTROMAGNETS TO PROVIDE TORQUE ... HECK A CUPPLE CAPS AND ITS PERPETUAL TRAVEL ... ;)

I WANTED TO MAKES KITS THAT MOD RIGHT ON TO EXSISTING BIKES...

TOLD YOU WOULD LOVE IT ..

PLUGG IN THE HOUSE WHEN YOU GET DONE RIDDING ... JUST SET IT UP ON A BASE KICKSTAND

:D 8)

HAVE FUN ...

IST! BELEAVE ME I KNOW KOOLER SAYS I GAVE HIM A.D.D. :D ;D ;D LMFAO

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 12, 2009, 11:10:29 PM

Jeanna:

Wow, you got a free bike? Hey, stick a small motor on it like I did and you can get 200 mpg riding around town. I am still riding mine and I love it.

I feel the same way you do about the Bedini motor vs the JT circuits. The JT has way more potential. (no pun intended)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 12, 2009, 11:41:49 PM

You guys are so funny,

I got a free half of a bike... the back wheel and the frame. It was a kid's bike. You know how they destroy the front wheel by doing what was never intended, so I just went into the back of the thrift store and told them I was going to take it apart and I did not want a working bike and did they have a wheel from a bike with its axle... so it came out of the dumpster.
It was a quantum thrift store day! ;D

Anyway I have 2 ridable bikes, the one I rode on my bike trip long ago and the one that someone gave me for the pedal a watt which is a cool bike stand generator.

This is a wheel for a bedini battery charger-motor which I hope to learn more about now that I can build with it.

I love how we can all laugh together!
Thank you for your encouragement.

This eric dollard video is awesome!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhuSn6sc7sc&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhuSn6sc7sc&feature=related)

youtube takes sooo very long these days a 60 minute video takes 3 hours for me to download and watch. But this one is really worth it.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 13, 2009, 07:02:07 AM

i like my BIKE IDEA VERRY MUCH ...

AND ILL TELL YA WHY :P

ALI .. GAVE ME THE IDEA :P YEARS AGO ....

JUST HOP ON THE BIKE DADDY AND GIVE IT A PUSH ...

THE HUMANS ARE SILLY THEY LIKE TO DRIVE AROUND ON THEASE SUPPER STINKY THINGS THAT BLOW BLUE SMOKE..... YUCK ....

GOOD OLD LONG SLEEP ?

IST!

IT IS TIME TO WAKE UP AND CLIMB OUT OF BED .... :D OR GO BACK TO SLEEP FOR ANOTHER 26000+ YEARS..... HUMMMMMM

MPG.... SH!FT MORE LIKE MPC LOL :D MPC = MILES PER CHARGE ... LOL AND I JUST GAVE PERPETUAL TRAVEL ...

IST SAYS I YI YI ..... CUZ IM ABOUT TIPPED ON THE HENISSEY .... AHHHH SH!FT THATS IT ..SO IM SPENDING MY CHEEZE ! ;D ;)

WANT MY SECRET ....? LOL :D WHAT WAS FORDS ? ;D

LETS CALL IT THE MODEL W INSTED OF T ;) AND IF WE CAN BRING THE GHOST OUT IT WILL BE ALRIGHT!

THE THINGS THAT STIMULATED MY MIND MAY NOT STIMULATE YOURS .. WE ALL HAVE TRIGGERS THAT TUNE US IN ... MINE IS THE SAME AS FORDS WAS ...

SOME HOW ILL FIND MY WAY HOME.... OR ... ILL BRING MY HOME HERE .... ;)

FOR THE LIGHTWORKERS ON PLANNET EARTH AT THIS TIME !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HC38xupAaY

SOME DAY WE GONNA BREAK FREE FROM THEASE CHAINS...

S O M E D A Y .... WE GONNA RIZE UP !!

SOMEDAY.. FLIPSYDE ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlQ7i85SnKs&feature=fvw

BELEAVE IN YOUR DREAMS YOU SEE IN YOUR SLEEP!

MAKE A WISH!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on November 13, 2009, 12:02:50 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on November 12, 2009, 08:42:52 PM
GARY... 8) 8)

LOVE YA MAN!

THANK YOU! IS THERE ANY WAY YOU CAN MAKE A YOUTUBE VIDEO ... ;D

IST! :)

GUYS I HOPE TO BE ORDERING SOME MORE OF THE SAME LARGE CORES ... IT IS POSSIBLE THAT WE GET A DISCOUNT BY VOLUME THIS IM NOT SURE ... I DID NOT BUY THE ONES I HAVE ... THEY WERE SUPPLYED ... LOL

BUT I THINK THE COST AS I RECALL WAS SOMETHING LIKE 40 DOLLARS... THEASE ARE RATED 2000V IM ASSUMEING WE CAN MAKE EM GRUNT IF YA KNOW WHAT I MEAN ... GARY THIS CORE IS PERFECT FOR WHAT YOUR DOING ...

ANYHOW I NEED MORE THOUGHT I WOULD LET YOU ALL KNOW WHAT ONES IM BUYING INCASE YOU WANT TO OFF GRID YOUR HOUSE ......

;)

JUST GET THE LARGEST W CORE 8)

IST

Sorry ........but there is no chance of me making a video about this .
I still have problems watching videos .
I miss alot here because of these problems.

Let me know if you can get a better price for a larger quantity of those toroids.
I could use a few of them

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 13, 2009, 01:28:03 PM

I WILL SO ..

BECAUSE OF WHAT YOU MISS IT SETS YOU AHEAD!

IST!

HERE WE GO 1 MORE TIME HERE WE GO 1 MORE TIME NOW WE SPININ NOW WE SPININ NOW SPININ NOW WE SPUN!

FLIPSYDE SPUN!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jA-7iEW15Y&feature=channel

MR.M DIDNT LIKE COLDPLAY .... SO HOW BOUT FLIPSYDE ... ;)

2 MORE QUOTES TODAY ...

BRUCE DEPULMA .. IF IT IS IMAGIEABLE IT MUST BE REAL!
TESLA ALL IS POSSIBLE WITHIN A SPHERE

HERE WE ARE :)

AND IF SUCH IS THE CASE ... THEN LOOK AGIN AT ALI'S SCRIBBLES ... LOL

THIS KNOT IS A VERRY COOL DEVICE... THE COIL THAT LOCKS THE ORBIT IN THE GOLD ... BECOMES THE OUTPUT TO KEEP THE THING FROM MELTING DOWN.... HUMMMMMMM LMAO

BTW THERES YOUR TPU ... ;)

THAT BEING SAID ... HOW CLOSE DOES THAT SOUND TO SM'S WORDS ... "IT IS LIKE A FURNICE WICH FUELS ITS SELF THE FEED BECOMES THE SUPPLY..... "

:)

THIS ALL TIES TOGATHER WITH MY WATER TURBINE WHEN I FIRST EXPOSED CLOSEING THE LOOP USEING THE POSITIVE FEEDBACK LOOP ... BE IT MAGNETIC ELECTRIC MECHANICAL OPTICAL ... ECT

THIS LOOP IS

"THE ONE RING TO BLIND THEM AND LEAD THEM ALL FROM THE DARKNESS... "

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on November 13, 2009, 02:02:50 PM

Has anyone else had problems with Electronic Goldmine?

I ordered some parts a while back
I got an order confirmation the next day. ( the 28th)
I finally gave up on delivery and emailed them yesterday.
They say that they sent me an email on the 29th saying my card was declined .
I was watching for that email ....... it never arrived.

Does anyone know of another source for toroids similar to the 5 for $1?
I am completely out of toroids, diodes and a few other things .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on November 13, 2009, 02:56:30 PM

Hi Resonanceman very good setup that you've mentioned can you please send a schematic of how to charge the source battery too?
I've build a JT with a toroid and as MK1 had said one has to adjust the primary lenght with the secondary to give it's peak voltage.
Mine is giving above meter reading amazing!.
Is it possible to use these for a filament? just asking.
Thanks guys

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on November 13, 2009, 04:26:32 PM

Quote from: guruji on November 13, 2009, 02:56:30 PM
Hi Resonanceman very good setup that you've mentioned can you please send a schematic of how to charge the source battery too?
I've build a JT with a toroid and as MK1 had said one has to adjust the primary lenght with the secondary to give it's peak voltage.
Mine is giving above meter reading amazing!.
Is it possible to use these for a filament? just asking.
Thanks guys

guruji

I am still working on the details

In general I route all the feedback through a Jesus charger
I use improvment 2 except without the 2200uF cap

The Jesus charger itself is really just a diode bridge with a cap across the center of it ,
I conect all my feedback across that cap .

I am adding a picture of my Jesus charger .
As you can see it is color coded .
The red connects to the same connections as the positive for my JT
The black goes to the negative connection ..
The blue thing in the middle is a 250 V 1uF cap

I have never tried a filliment bulb
I am pretty sure that I don;t have the current for a filliment bulb yet .....but one of the things I hope to gain from the type of JT I am building now is more power.

I will post a full schematic and some pictures when I get it working right .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 13, 2009, 04:32:39 PM

Gary:

Great diagrams. On your photo, it appears that there are 2 or 3 more diodes on the left side after the bridge of four. Is this correct?

Thanks,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on November 13, 2009, 04:40:19 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on November 13, 2009, 04:32:39 PM
Gary:

Great diagrams. On your photo, it appears that there are 2 or 3 more diodes on the left side after the bridge of four. Is this correct?

Thanks,

Bill

Bill

what may look like extra diodes is really sloppy solder connections. I was using up old solder that was really to thick for the job ....and a soldering iron that was to small .

There are 2 diodes on each side of the cap ...... the bands are all in the same direction .

I modified the picture with a schematic to make it more clear

gary

Edit

I originally had the diodes backwards ........ I fixed them

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on November 13, 2009, 05:22:27 PM

I am posting a couple pictures of the core I am using before I fried it .

I was getting about 450 V from one set of pins.

I removed the wire ...... I kept the E core and the plastic spool that fits over it .......with attached pins for connections .

First try 10 wraps bifilar ( cat5 wire )
I got 46 V out JT LED position ....no secondary
I am powering it with 12 V

I noticed that when the E core halfs are placed together there is a gap in the middle section .
I cut 3 pieces of sheet metal to fill that gap .
I was thinking that with the gap filled I should get higher voltage .
It dropped to 3.6 V with 1 piece of metal in the gap .
3.3 V with 2 pieces.
3.2 V with all 3 pieces .
With all three pieces the gap is filled as well as I have the ability to fill it .

What I wonder is if the lower voltage means the core is acting like it is higher permeabillity .....or is it lower ?
I will check voltage with a full set of windings once I get this thing finished.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 13, 2009, 05:32:57 PM

Gary:

Thank you for adding the labels on your photo. It is very clear to me now. I want to make one of these and see what happens. Thanks for taking the time to do that.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on November 13, 2009, 06:24:57 PM

@gary

The hole in the core is to make sure the core doesn't saturate ...

when you add the metal in the hole it changes the core operating freq...

Hello everyone !

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on November 13, 2009, 06:27:37 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on November 13, 2009, 05:22:27 PM
I am posting a couple pictures of the core I am using before I fried it .

I was getting about 450 V from one set of pins.

I removed the wire ...... I kept the E core and the plastic spool that fits over it .......with attached pins for connections .

First try 10 wraps bifilar ( cat5 wire )
I got 46 V out JT LED position ....no secondary
I am powering it with 12 V

I noticed that when the E core halfs are placed together there is a gap in the middle section .
I cut 3 pieces of sheet metal to fill that gap .
I was thinking that with the gap filled I should get higher voltage .
It dropped to 3.6 V with 1 piece of metal in the gap .
3.3 V with 2 pieces.
3.2 V with all 3 pieces .
With all three pieces the gap is filled as well as I have the ability to fill it .

What I wonder is if the lower voltage means the core is acting like it is higher permeabillity .....or is it lower ?
I will check voltage with a full set of windings once I get this thing finished.

gary

This core lights up my 90 LED array to full brightness with only 46 V
When I read the voltage across the output it reads only 4 V
WIth one of those metal pieces in the gap it reads 3.1 V the array is maybe 1/4 power at best .
with 2 of the metal pieces in the gap ..... 2.5 V the array is barely lighting .
With all 3 pieces 2.1 V the array is almost out .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on November 13, 2009, 06:33:45 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on November 13, 2009, 06:24:57 PM
@gary

The hole in the core is to make sure the core doesn't saturate ...

when you add the metal in the hole it changes the core operating freq...

Hello everyone !

Mark

Thanks Mark

I had heard that with a JT you want to reach saturation .
Do you know if adding metal to the gap would raise or lower the frequency?

My idea was to make the core as close to acting like a toroid as possible ......

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on November 13, 2009, 07:06:39 PM

@gary

Using 12v , will most likely saturate a core faster then a 1.5 volt input , i believe this is the reason your output goes up when your battery drains .

Filling the gap in the core , makes it (saturable) that makes the core slower to respond , i think it should lower the freq .

Mark

Keep the good work !

edit you could try a pot on the battery and monitor the output ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 13, 2009, 07:13:39 PM

Mark:

Good to see you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 13, 2009, 08:15:17 PM

WELCOME BACK MARK...

READY FOR BLISTERS AND SORE FEET ?

LOL

SEE IF WE CANT SHRINK A QUATER OR SOMETHING ... ;D

IST!

IF WE PUT A TOONEE IN THE SHRINKER .. THINK THE CENTER WILL POP

;D

MISS YA BRO ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 13, 2009, 08:20:34 PM

Hi Gary,

I am confused by your drawing then comment.

Do the diodes on your enhanced photo/drawing ALL need to be reversed?
Or is that a corrected drawing? (It seems not... the photo seems to show the diode neg stripe in the opposite way from the way the yellow lines are drawn??

thank you.

===

I returned the hourglass and I am getting the same 57volts from many more turns around the toroid at the waist.
I am wondering now if I should make the second cone wind around the opposite way.
So, I will watch another video and wind half of it again, this time going the other way.

57v goes to 72 at a peak resonance.
And, there are 3 to 4 resolutions that show a lot of jumping around and ringing that are visible. Also... this is verry interesting: I see that jagged shaped wave that looks just like the EER we have all seen.
This happens when one full wave encompasses 1.2kHz.

I watched a project camelot interview that talks a lot about this hourglass figure along with many other things.
Joseph Farrell was being interviewed.
It seems this subject is not as unknown as I thought.
And, it seems that it is very ancient as I suspected. Synchronicity abounds.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 13, 2009, 08:35:03 PM

Jeanna:

Gary went back and edited that the diodes were reversed on his marked up photo. I'm glad you pointed that out. Thanks,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on November 13, 2009, 09:45:02 PM

Quote from: jeanna on November 13, 2009, 08:20:34 PM
Hi Gary,

I am confused by your drawing then comment.

Do the diodes on your enhanced photo/drawing ALL need to be reversed?
Or is that a corrected drawing? (It seems not... the photo seems to show the diode neg stripe in the opposite way from the way the yellow lines are drawn??

thank you.

Jeanna

At first I just added a note that the diodes were wrong .... later I went back and changed them ..and edited the note .

Mark

Thanks for the information about filling the gap
I can't think of a reason that I would want to lower the frequency .......other than if it was high enough to be causing radio interference ......I am pretty sure we are not getting that high.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 13, 2009, 10:17:02 PM

IF WE HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT I HAVE HIGH GRADE ALUM CASES .. WATER PROOF I WILL SELL REALLY CHEEP THERE MANY SHAPES AND SIZES ...

WOULD WORK GOOD TO SHEILD I BET ... PROBALLY MAKE A GREAT RECIEVER TOO !

IST! IF IT IS TRANSMITTING

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on November 13, 2009, 10:24:38 PM

I finished my first test JT with the E cores.

For simplicity I used a primary of 10 turns .
It had 38 V with no secondary .
I decided to make the secondarys the same length
I used 12 strands of # 26 mag wire .
I twisted them into one strand with the original primary wires .

I then re-wrapped the spool .
I ended up with 40 V on both the primary and the secondarys

So far I have all the primarys connected .......like they were all one heavier wire .

It does seem to have a little power but nothing outstanding ..

so far I have not been able to get it to run with the full secondary being used for feedback .

I wondered about lighting a filament type bulb ....... the only one I had handy was a 110 V 40 W
It did not really light up .........but it made some heat and the filament glowed a nice orange color.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on November 13, 2009, 11:00:23 PM

Vortices focus the energy of a large mass revolving slowly over a large field to a small field in which the mass revolves very quickly. The meters per second velocity of the slowly revolving mass is identical to the meters per second velocity of the mass at the focal point. As you expand outward from the focal point the slowly revolving massive field becomes undetectable even though it may be revolving at the speed of light over a tremendous circumference. Like a coiled rope the end of the rope has velocity x along a circular path. The rope being able to transmit what is going on through it's coherent nature from end to end causes the other end of the rope in the inner part of the spiral or focal point to have velocity x resulting in a revolution many times that of the outer mass. The vortice inertial frame alllows for the focusing or magnification of rotational acceleration. If you express rotations per second as a frequency you can see how a very low frequency can be converted to a high frequency and vice versa.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on November 14, 2009, 02:08:49 PM

Hi guys this is my JT lighting a cfl.
About the jesus charger what transistor should be used?
Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 14, 2009, 02:15:07 PM

guruji:

I re-sized your photo so it fits better here.

Nice job on lighting the cfl.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on November 14, 2009, 02:50:15 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on November 12, 2009, 08:31:35 PM
Gary:

Great job! This is very good information for us. I don't blame you for leaving it alone for now. Please keep us posted as I think this is very significant.

Bill

I was wondering, if in the chronicling of the joule thief, if you or anyone else had come across a diagram for a multi-transistor setup...

...one which would incorporate a primary for each base, and a secondary for each collector? ..that is, including any tertiary coils for generating the 'AC' would become unnecessary..and the ac could just be derived from the switching of the two transistors.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 14, 2009, 03:13:46 PM

@ jadaro2600

I posted this and another circuit with photos and data some time back. But I do not remember when. Output from pickup coil is AC.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 14, 2009, 03:14:39 PM

@guruji

WAYDAGO!!
very nice. Don't you love it?

How many volts did you end up with on that fatso winding?
And, did you leave it on to see how long you can use it?
I think one of the telling parts of our designs is not just how long it will last using one AA battery but, what the dead battery state is?
That means you must be there the moment the light goes out to check the dead voltage level of the battery.
(the reason for this is that the transistor will continue to drain the battery even though the light is off.)

Please share this info, because we all need it.

Thank you.

Hi jadaro,
The part you are forgetting here is that each transistor will drain the battery a little more and the C-E junction is a very expensive place to put your light.

There is not really a tertiary winding because the primary is actually just a center tapped single primary although it is written out as a 2 wire thing and can be made to seem that way.

What you are calling tertiary is really just a secondary.

The cost of using this is about the same and sometimes LESS than just using the transistor for the fraction of the time it is on.

OK, so I am really frugal, but in this ou endeavor, that kind of frugalness may make the difference.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on November 14, 2009, 03:46:39 PM

thank you both

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 14, 2009, 04:55:31 PM

jarado2600 ... you bring up good points ... as i beleave ... there is more to be discovered ...

like 2 switches 1 line ...... ;)

but aside that for now

GREATWORK GURUJI!!

sure is bright .. :)

J
there many aproches to the same result..

my aproch is diffrent than everyones in my opinion.. i dont want true perfect resonance like a tank like tesla don smith ....... all of em ..
and this is where being cheep DONT PAY ...

ill tell ya why ... infact .. 1 of TESLAS experiences .. he was tuneing and noticed the thunderstorms .. / solar storms? flares to be exact ! compleatly destroyed his toys ;)

wakie...

so assume you make the perfect most efficient device .. you now have the most perfect thing .. so

when you go to scale this up because you will want to do so ... the first hint of geo magnetic distrubances .. poof there it goes ... ;)

i like my designs ... i like to use some power ... and get some more back ... im not at all concerened with how many watts my units consume ... ;D

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 14, 2009, 10:09:37 PM

Hi ist,

QuoteJ
there many aproches to the same result..

my aproch is diffrent than everyones in my opinion.. i dont want true perfect resonance like a tank like tesla don smith ....... all of em ..
and this is where being cheep DONT PAY ...

I do agree.
I also find it then purposely go off resonance, because I want more resilience.

====
This gives me a great chance to say what my approach is.

I am looking for the ways to start with a simple pulse and to manipulate and amplify the results to a level where we can use it.
So, frugalness comes in here not as a philosophical method, but because it is necessary for me to limit my input to a series of pulses, because I am wanting to find a way for just those pulses to create useful energy.

If I add too much more I may miss a way to use a very limited supply.

I hope this is not too confusing, but I thought it would be a good moment to mention this.
Thank you for the opportunity,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 15, 2009, 01:07:47 AM

sounds like you need a chord that will cause rotation ....

;)

is

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SPP-48 on November 15, 2009, 07:42:05 AM

OK...

I realise IST is looking at doing this in a BIG way.
I just wanted to test the basic premise.

Iâ€™ve built a JT based on a charger circuit on Youtube http://video.google.com.au/videosearch?q=joule+thief+charger&hl=en&emb=0&aq=f#

I may be covering old ground, but unfortunately I have not had the time to go through the 900 odd pages on this thread, so please bear with me.

Using a depleted AA Energizer battery (1.3V) the circuit was producing around 20-30v on the output. I connected in series the two largest low voltage E-capacitors I have with a combined value of 116,000uF at 15V. They charged up to 15.4 volts in around 10 minutes. I then shorted them across a 12V 50WATT halogen bulb which stayed on for about 1.5 secs. I repeated this three times with the same results and the original AA battery was still reading about 1.2V.

Does anybody know what this means from an OU point of view?
I donâ€™t know how to calculate the Maths.

Thanks

SPP-48

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on November 15, 2009, 11:27:07 AM

Quote from: SPP-48 on November 15, 2009, 07:42:05 AM
OK...

I realise IST is looking at doing this in a BIG way.
I just wanted to test the basic premise.

Iâ€™ve built a JT based on a charger circuit on Youtube http://video.google.com.au/videosearch?q=joule+thief+charger&hl=en&emb=0&aq=f#

I may be covering old ground, but unfortunately I have not had the time to go through the 900 odd pages on this thread, so please bear with me.

Using a depleted AA Energizer battery (1.3V) the circuit was producing around 20-30v on the output. I connected in series the two largest low voltage E-capacitors I have with a combined value of 116,000uF at 15V. They charged up to 15.4 volts in around 10 minutes. I then shorted them across a 12V 50WATT halogen bulb which stayed on for about 1.5 secs. I repeated this three times with the same results and the original AA battery was still reading about 1.2V.

Does anybody know what this means from an OU point of view?
I donâ€™t know how to calculate the Maths.

Thanks

SPP-48

It's possible that you may just be reviving the voltage of the battery and not the current. IST has a good idea of how to remove this possibility by using capacitors rather than batteries.

Many thousands of posts ago, I also concurred, that it you want to measure that aspect, then you should power the circuit with a capacitor of large capacity, and then run it until it's discharged while charging whatever you mean to charge; if the charge value is greater, then you're onto something - otherwise, this dissimilarities and complexities of the circuit and the physical properties of the battery are going to complicate our / your understanding of the way that the circuit if factually performing.

To reiterate this idea, having two identical capacitors, one on the supply side, and one on the charge side, is a more accurate portrayal of this phenomenon. Using a ( for example ) pair of 35v 1F capacitors, charging the supply side with a 1.3v battery and then connecting the charged capacitor to the circuit and then measuring the energy stored in the other capacitor should yield a representation of output.

??? How would you measure how measure farads stored in the capacitor though? ???

In any event, when this measure of 1F@1.3V > 1F@?V then no OU, but when 1F@1.3V < 1F@?V then OU is present. ( bare in mind that 1F is not a lot of time to conduct the test ) ...it may be reasonable to warm the entire apparatus up on a different source with both capacitors disconnected.

IST, with all of his capacitors, has this part figured out at least :) ...

When it comes to the point when Supply < Output, then the output can be redirected to the input.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on November 15, 2009, 12:50:55 PM

Hi Jeanna thanks yes I like this JT great invention. Thanks to Slayer007 schematic.
Hi Innovation thanks but you should share a schematic cause I don't understand what you're trying to tell me as usual I understand more quickly with a schematic ;)

Hi Jeanna On the secondary it was reading 50v but when I adjust the pot it goes very high up to 300v and more.
No I did not leave it on yet but I will try that.
Yes for shure I share the info; now I am trying to charge a 12v battery with another 12v battery.
Both are a bit low in voltage but I'm trying to see if both batteries get charged.

I posted this small JT that I did and trying to do a Jesus charger hope it goes well.
Thanks to Jesus and slayer007 and all.

Quote from: jeanna on November 14, 2009, 03:14:39 PM
@guruji

WAYDAGO!!
very nice. Don't you love it?

How many volts did you end up with on that fatso winding?
And, did you leave it on to see how long you can use it?
I think one of the telling parts of our designs is not just how long it will last using one AA battery but, what the dead battery state is?
That means you must be there the moment the light goes out to check the dead voltage level of the battery.
(the reason for this is that the transistor will continue to drain the battery even though the light is off.)

Please share this info, because we all need it.

Thank you.

Hi jadaro,
The part you are forgetting here is that each transistor will drain the battery a little more and the C-E junction is a very expensive place to put your light.

There is not really a tertiary winding because the primary is actually just a center tapped single primary although it is written out as a 2 wire thing and can be made to seem that way.

What you are calling tertiary is really just a secondary.

The cost of using this is about the same and sometimes LESS than just using the transistor for the fraction of the time it is on.

OK, so I am really frugal, but in this ou endeavor, that kind of frugalness may make the difference.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 15, 2009, 12:59:26 PM

deleted - after thinking about this I was not sure it was correct, so I deleted it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 15, 2009, 01:07:27 PM

Xee2:

I re-sized your attachment so it fits better on the screen. Thank you for this information.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Frederic2k1 on November 15, 2009, 01:25:46 PM

Where can I find latest schematic of circuit ?? ???

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: forest on November 15, 2009, 01:34:51 PM

I have an idea. If somebody could propose/invent automatic switch which would ne be powered but when applied voltage above certain value it would switch two circuits then you could just use two identical large capacitors - one for power supply and one as output storage.When voltage on output cap will rise above certain level his cap should become power supply and the former - the output storage.
If you can do it indefinitely then it's OU

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 15, 2009, 01:47:14 PM

forest:

I think The Daft Man and Lidmotor on Youtube have already done this. I had been thinking about this too once I started using supercaps. I don't know how to do it though. Check their work on this and, if I am correct and they have done this, let me know how to do it.

Thanks,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 15, 2009, 03:15:40 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on November 15, 2009, 11:27:07 AM====
??? How would you measure how measure farads stored in the capacitor though? ???
====

I agree and I think you stated this really well.

I think the time constant is maybe a great approach.
It may be possible to use a resistor in series with the caps to lengthen the time.

Others might have a good way to describe how to do this.
I am not very confident of how I should describe it myself, but when I was first learning about electronics, I made my teacher set up a rig for me to use a cap.
I filled the cap in a very short moment then hooked it up to the resistor-- led arrangement and counted the time.

So, because the time constant is a great way to calculate a cap, maybe that will tell which side is < and which is >.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on November 15, 2009, 03:20:38 PM

Quote from: jeanna on November 15, 2009, 03:15:40 PM
I agree and I think you stated this really well.

I think the time constant is maybe a great approach.
It may be possible to use a resistor in series with the caps to lengthen the time.

Others might have a good way to describe how to do this.
I am not very confident of how I should describe it myself, but when I was first learning about electronics, I made my teacher set up a rig for me to use a cap.
I filled the cap in a very short moment then hooked it up to the resistor-- led arrangement and counted the time.

So, because the time constant is a great way to calculate a cap, maybe that will tell which side is < and which is >.

jeanna

Perhaps timing the supply side and then the charged side independently; by this I mean, having a separate testing circuit (this may require a 2~3V supply rather than the 1~2V we've been using?)... to determine how long it takes to discharge one which is fully charged, and one which has been charged via the fully charged.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 15, 2009, 05:02:30 PM

ok this is not hard yes i think you almost have it all figured ... i wish this was all i had to teach ...

i tell ya! anyhow

you simply charge the supply cap the first time .... you need a large enough reserve hence the 650 f
there 5 on the output as i desire 12vdc ... i will add rings and feeds till they fill to the speed i choose

there must be stages to this device stage 1 basic jt large cap as input for stage 2
as soon as cap #1 is dead step down some of the time that was gained in the caps to supply the ring ... take the stage 1 away .. now it is perpetual!

ist

this is the very same as your car turn the key till the engine is running ...
charge the cap with the starter ... the stage 1 jt then turn the motor on ...

could it be simpler?

if you can do it mega big you can also do it mega small .. right!

but im not so good with all the electrical forumlas and such
to tune really fine ... and its not that i can not do it
i choose not to .... got it ! :)

you do not need a jt any more effeicient ..... you need to stage so you have a constant flow

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 15, 2009, 05:15:59 PM

@ jadaro2600

Quote from: jadaro2600 on November 15, 2009, 11:27:07 AM
??? How would you measure how measure farads stored in the capacitor though? ???

The Farads in a capacitor are determined by its size and dielectric. For a given capacitor, the Farads are always the same. It is equivalent to saying how large a bottle is using quarts. Except that you can say there is 2 quarts in a 5 quart bottle, but you can not say there is 2 Farads in a 5 Farad capacitor. The capacitor is filled with Coulombs not Farads.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 15, 2009, 08:18:50 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on November 15, 2009, 05:02:30 PM

you do not need a jt any more effeicient ..... you need to stage so you have a constant flow

So then, I take one of my secondaries from a jt and fill a cap or 2 then move one or both into place as for instance the jesus charger and it goes on making light from the other secondary while it fills and discharges from these caps.

I tried that once and did not get it to work, but I figure like all these things there were some technical details I did not know about and left it alone... for later

Am I on the right trail??

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 15, 2009, 08:32:31 PM

i would say yes j

im gonna build it and perfect it here soon as i get my materials ..

:)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on November 15, 2009, 09:27:24 PM

Try to charge two caps in parallel. Then series connect them through a lightbulb to charge two more capacitors in parallel. Now series connect these two and recharge the first bank which is now in parallel. Repeat until the light doesnt light anymore. Take a voltage reading on the capacitors. Then take one capacitor and charge it with three in series. Then take this one capacitor and charge the three capacitors which are now in parallel. Series connect again repeat until the light doesnt light anymore. Now you are getting frustrated doing all those jumpers so lets finish up and short one of the capacitors directly through the light bulb. Now take two capacitors in series and charge the remaining capacitor. Now short this one. Now short the last two in parallel or series for the last flicker. You now have four discharged capacitors. And a jumble of rackshack leads and your cursing me. This is a Tesla Switch. Resonance does all the switching for you as energy changes form from inertia to pressure. Each plate of the capacitor is a scource or drain depending on the last pulse from the inductor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 15, 2009, 10:10:50 PM

@ kooler

I finally got my SCRs. After burning out several parts, I was able to make a circuit that triggers the SCR. The circuit flashes the neon about once per second. Not very impressive, but after having so much trouble getting the SCR to trigger it seems like a big victory. Now I will try to increase the output voltage. Have you tried anything else?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on November 15, 2009, 10:52:47 PM

@ xee2

i have not had any luck firing the scr with a resistor in line with a diac or neon ...
it has been locking down my scr
but this schematic here seem to do alright
with firing a car coil and a flyback coil.. i been running it thur a toroid of 3 1/4''
with a 1:1 ratio it will light small bulbs.. but i need more hz's to get the unmodded cfl to light
it just blinks fast and bright.. the schematic below i am using 0.33, 0.2, 0.1, 0.047 uf caps
i'm about to give up..hahaha

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: ian middleton on November 15, 2009, 11:26:07 PM

G'Day all in joule thief land.

@jeanna, well after all this time you finally got me to come over and have a look.
Nice you-tube videos by the way, well explained. Can I use your voice on my answering machine? ;D
Anyway using one of your earlier diagrams I built a JT today and it works just jim dandy.
Does that make me part of the "in" crowd now? ;D ;D

I also knocked up a beefy crystal battery which is showing alot of promise. now to bolt the battery to the JT and see what we get.

I'm of to make another JT, there are so coooool. ;D

Catch you later guys.

Ian

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on November 15, 2009, 11:53:05 PM

Quote from: sparks on November 15, 2009, 09:27:24 PM
Each plate of the capacitor is a scource or drain depending on the last pulse from the inductor.

This looks to me like a thought worth a little experimenting

:)

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 16, 2009, 12:06:56 AM

@ kooler

Quote from: kooler on November 15, 2009, 10:52:47 PM
but i need more hz's

I suspect that the neon bulbs are slowing you down. I have never been able to get them to turn on and off fast. That is why I am using zener diode.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 16, 2009, 02:07:48 AM

Hi gang . Good Experiments Everyone . If i might just take a little space here off topic for one sec please . It has come to My attention that Freezer has accused me of Stealing an Image he posted here in open Source jule thief Forum and that i stole it and posted it on My website . I called it Flaming Me for no good reason and that every picture ,project schematic or anything i post here on open Source is free for anyone to use anyway they wish . Now someone please correct me If i am wrong and also if there is something here you posted like a schematic or a picture of a neon or something else then please tell me and i wont show your work on My Site . I for one feel privileged that anyone would show My work on another site . I don't steal and hate being accused of it . If you have something you would like me to show the rest of the internet users on my site then tell me that also .
thank you for your attention
Gnite

Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: ian middleton on November 16, 2009, 05:29:09 AM

Bill, Yucca is correct , the 1k is there just to protect the transistor. The JT is not a DC device as such so biasing by the 1k is not an issuse. In the early days we sufferd from thermal runaway in transistors without some form of current limiting resistor. If however the resistor is too high a value, say 10k then it will effect the biasing. Dimmer leds.

All the best,

Ian

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 16, 2009, 07:22:10 AM

deleted

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 16, 2009, 01:22:23 PM

Quote from: kooler on November 15, 2009, 10:52:47 PM

. i been running it thur a toroid of 3 1/4''
with a 1:1 ratio it will light small bulbs.. but i need more hz's to get the unmodded cfl to light
it just blinks fast and bright.. the schematic below i am using 0.33, 0.2, 0.1, 0.047 uf caps
i'm about to give up..hahaha

Hi kooler,

I have found that increasing the base resistor will also increase the frequency.
The trouble and trick is that this also reduces the voltage.
To remedy that you must make more turns on the secondary from the collector coil.
If you are using an ig coil as the secondary off the collector you probably have the volts to spare especially if you remove one of those neons.

so, for the dynamo that generates the pulses, the bottom line is

higher base resistance = higher frequency
Higher frequency = lower volts
More turns on the secondary = more volts.

All of this is within the limits of the toroid you are using, but that 3 1/2 inch big boy is plenty for this.
It will give you 5khz and over 450 volts for sure

I hope this helps.

@ian,
Well hello!
I am glad you will join us in this fun

Yes, a cigar tube sized crystal battery firing a joule thief is just the right idea!
Well done.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 16, 2009, 01:55:27 PM

welcome ian

my materials are only wateing on gold mine ... then they will be shipped then i will build agin

and see what is the out come ..

it is kinda of funny i mention triggers not so long ago ... humm

intresting..

w

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 16, 2009, 02:51:57 PM

@ kooler

I reduced the capacitor values and was able to get my circuit to output 4.2 kHz through the ignition coil. This was measured with a capacitively coupled frequency meter, not a scope, so there is some chance that the reading is not correct (but it seems to be).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on November 16, 2009, 04:14:42 PM

THis would be a great idea but it would be good to try if it works in continuum
Thanks

Quote from: jeanna on November 15, 2009, 08:18:50 PM
So then, I take one of my secondaries from a jt and fill a cap or 2 then move one or both into place as for instance the jesus charger and it goes on making light from the other secondary while it fills and discharges from these caps.

I tried that once and did not get it to work, but I figure like all these things there were some technical details I did not know about and left it alone... for later

Am I on the right trail??

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 16, 2009, 06:21:00 PM

Quote from: guruji on November 16, 2009, 04:14:42 PM
THis would be a great idea but it would be good to try if it works in continuum
Thanks

ill tell you now it does work like this

this is what teslas G is ;D ;)

after you acheive this self running timmer state ...

it then plugs into MANY MANY tesla pattends AS A SUPPLY ;)

tell me you dont need the pattend ...

ist!

you know i have wondered why the masons got a g inside the compas and right angle ... :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: ian middleton on November 16, 2009, 06:38:46 PM

oops, sorry Bill I should learn to read the date on some of these posts ::)

Ian

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 16, 2009, 06:41:38 PM

Ian:

Welcome to our humble group here. I don't envy anyone attempting to read the almost 10,000 posts but, they do document our discoveries and experimental results and you can also see how we arrived at where we are now.

I made a sister topic to this one called the Joule Thief diagrams topic and there are most if not all of the schematics for about the first 400 pages of this topic. I am going to try to catch up but I don't know if I ever will be able to. The basic JT's and several variations as well as the Fuji circuits are all over there though.

I look forward to your participation here with us. These are good folks here.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 16, 2009, 10:21:22 PM

Hi everybody,

I took the little MK1-jeanna hybrid another step today and I think it is a really good idea.

In my first one, I limited the number of turns to match a 'known' turns ratio from many other coils. I had found a comfortable turns wind to make a little light, and so made many and knew what to expect.

The widow (black and red original = black widow) has
5T on the base coil and
8T on the collector coil.
This seems to give the best tuning outside of 11T,11T, which is also stable and very good.

So, I wound 5T and 8T and added to the basic 3 directions of turns for the attempted 3 phase winding on this secondary.

This time I wound 12T for the first direction and 24T for the second and 36-48 (I lost count, but it is likely over 40) for the third giving a grand total of 72-84 turns for this special secondary.
So, guessing that the total is 76, I will call this

5T,8T,76T
2N3904 transistor
48ohm base resistance

172volts!!!!!!!
and
it lights a neon to prove it!
68.9khz too

There is enough room in the center for probably 40 more turns at least.

In general at least, this means that it is probably possible to light a larger fluoro tube with the .86" one that only lit a 4 inch one. (I ran out of room in the center on that one too.)

Or in other words... more for less.

I used 28 gauge wire left over from a bedini order. I like that too. It is thinner than the 27gauge even, but not at all flimsy like the radio shack 30 gauge wire.

I will try to load up a pic later so please check back.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 17, 2009, 12:45:06 AM

Jeanna:

Way to go!! Hey, I just watched Lidmotor's replication of your big joule thief circuit on Youtube. He was really impressed with it and so was I. Very well done. The cfl he was lighting from an AA bat. was extremely bright.

This is wonderful work Jeanna, I hope you are proud.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 17, 2009, 03:06:27 AM

@ All:

I bought a cheap LED flashlight the other day that had 5 super bright LEDs and ran on 3 AAA batteries. Well, I could not help myself and gutted it and added a basic Joule Thief circuit running on one AA battery. Here is the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XW3ZGjrL0Os

It is nothing really special but it works great. This is like the 3rd one I have done. these are handy as they run on "dead" batteries that I get for free from my friends.

2N3904 transistor and 1k resistor, 22 gauge wire and a 1" ferrite torrid. I did not count the windings but, it is as much as you can get with this size wire when winding bifilar on this size toroid. Nothing fancy here but it gives good light and will run a looooong time. Way longer than if I used the 3 AAA batteries it came with. The light level is about the same if not brighter than original.

One tip I will pass on is to use a hot glue gun to insulate all of the solder joints and to hold all of the wires in place.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: IotaYodi on November 17, 2009, 10:43:06 AM

Nice work. Ive tried to make the simplest joule thief for kicks with 3 different toroids I had laying around. Works with 3 volts but not 1.5.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on November 17, 2009, 01:32:42 PM

@all

Homage to Jeanna by lidmotor ...

http://www.youtube.com/user/Lidmotor#p/a/u/0/KAakZTR_4LE

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 17, 2009, 01:37:02 PM

Quote from: IotaYodi on November 17, 2009, 10:43:06 AM
Nice work. Ive tried to make the simplest joule thief for kicks with 3 different toroids I had laying around. Works with 3 volts but not 1.5.

What transistor were you using? If you use the 2N3904 it should work very well on 1.5 volts and then down to about .3 volts or so. If you use a germanium transistor, you can get it down even lower. If you post a pic or two of your efforts, perhaps we can help you get it to work on a single AA.

Thank you,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on November 17, 2009, 03:20:56 PM

Hi guys I've build the Jesus charger but it did not charge my AA battery. I used a 104 cap maybe this is not good. Near the first diode it was giving me about 1.77v but it went down on the two diodes.
Any help please?
Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: ian middleton on November 17, 2009, 03:43:05 PM

G'day all.

@ Bill, nice work with the flashlight. Given there are various levels of "deadness" in your batteries how much longer do they last , on average?

Ian

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 17, 2009, 03:53:44 PM

@ kooler

If you try my biasing technique I recommend using a 10K resistor in series with the zener instead of the 1K as shown in my last diagram. It triggers fine and reduces the stress on the zener.

Unfortunately, my ignition coil is shorting inside and I do not think I will buy another one just to try this. So I am not sure what I will do next. I hope you will continue to post your results.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: IotaYodi on November 17, 2009, 06:17:25 PM

This lights up fine with 3 volts. Maybe the toroid isn't ferrite. I tried a choke off a monitor cord but thats more cylindrical than toroid. Yes Im using the 2N3904.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 17, 2009, 07:01:23 PM

Iotayodi,
I have 2 thoughts
1- Maybe there are too many turns. 19 pairs or so is a lot for setting up an oscillation.
2- I bet the problem is the toroid. I had a bum yellow one for my first ferrite toroid and it worked, but feebly, also.

And, I have a question about the circuit.
At the end of my verrry precise pointer, ;) is the collector side of the led.
I cannot see a connection here, and I cannot see how there could be a connection here. In any case it is under the light if it is there.
One side of the led is on the emitter side of the transistor, and both go to the neg battery.
I can see a lead close enough to believe it is there.

The other side of the light is connected to the collector of the transistor.
If you have a very small jumper going under the light, that would do it, but it is not visible.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 17, 2009, 07:56:10 PM

Quote from: IotaYodi on November 17, 2009, 06:17:25 PM
This lights up fine with 3 volts. Maybe the toroid isn't ferrite. I tried a choke off a monitor cord but thats more cylindrical than toroid. Yes Im using the 2N3904.

If it ligts OK with 3V then it should work with 1.5V if you change the base resistor from 1K to 100 ohms. Your circuit diagram looks OK.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on November 17, 2009, 08:07:55 PM

Quote from: guruji on November 17, 2009, 03:20:56 PM
Hi guys I've build the Jesus charger but it did not charge my AA battery. I used a 104 cap maybe this is not good. Near the first diode it was giving me about 1.77v but it went down on the two diodes.
Any help please?
Thanks

guruji

I added each diode one at a time as I built my Jesus charger .
The voltage should go up a little as you add each diode .

The Jesus charger alone is not enough to get the circuit to self charge .
I am working on getting the part count down .........but my firsr tries required about 9 coils most of them hooked up to provide both feedback and flyback .
Most of those coils were JT coils .
I hooked one winding on each toroid in series for flyback ........I connected each of the other windings on those coils to the cap on the Jesus charger .

Often I connected the secondary for flyback because it was larger .........but sometimes I used the secondary for feedback ...... it all depends on the circuit and the coil .
I just tried connecting it and checked the results .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: IotaYodi on November 17, 2009, 08:29:45 PM

QuoteI cannot see a connection here, and I cannot see how there could be a connection here. In any case it is under the light if it is there.

Its there. The Anode is on the collector. The cathode is on the emitter with the negative. I also think its a toroid problem. I may get some of the smaller ones and try those out. Ill try to lower the resistance as Xee2 suggested and see what happens with the other two toroids also.
Frank

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on November 17, 2009, 08:44:52 PM

Quote from: IotaYodi on November 17, 2009, 06:17:25 PM
This lights up fine with 3 volts. Maybe the toroid isn't ferrite. I tried a choke off a monitor cord but thats more cylindrical than toroid. Yes Im using the 2N3904.

IotaYodi

I would try adding a cap across your resistor to make a tank circuit
I would also trade your resistor for a pot .
I try several caps on each coil
I then run the pot full sweep .......often it lights best at lowest resistance ......sometimes it lights better at a higher resistance .
I have seen a few JTs that would not run without a cap across the resistor .
I have never seen a time that adding a cap made the JT stop working .

The caps I use most for the tank are .1UF and 1 uF smaller caps may be helpful .
Larger caps will sometimes make the JT blink

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on November 17, 2009, 09:40:43 PM

We're nearing the 10K post..amazing. Now, I would like to make a simple request of the posters here...

I've come and gone here for a while, and have had a thought about posting circuit diagrams and the various 'individualities' regarding each - to each his own though:

Would it be possible for future posters to include the ohmic resistance of their custom wound coils, for instance, I've hacked an old DSL filter up for the inductors there and used them in a Helmholtz configuration on several of my posts - the ohmic resistance of those coils is 3.8ohms.

This resistance can usually be measured the same way that a resistor is tested; in fact, in future posts I'll be giving actual resistance of resistors and coils alike.

Hopefully this will...

Doing so would give a greater indication of the statistics of each winding - they are indeed relativistic - therefore, it may be possible for me to replicate your circuit with a different toroid if I can at least match the ohmic resistance, the chances of a successful replication or reproduction of results may increase if we document every aspect of the circuit.

[edit] ..this particular request goes out to the die-hards, as I realize that the ohmic resistance can be very low and almost negligible, it requires a persistent designer to document these things and may not fall into the realm of the hobbyist.

@jeanna, when you say 48ohms to base, is this from + to base across coil and all?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 17, 2009, 09:58:31 PM

Quote from: IotaYodi on November 17, 2009, 08:29:45 PM
Its there. The Anode is on the collector. The cathode is on the emitter with the negative. I also think its a toroid problem. I may get some of the smaller ones and try those out. Ill try to lower the resistance as Xee2 suggested and see what happens with the other two toroids also.
Frank

Frank:

That yellow toroid is not ferrite it is powdered iron. Now some folks here have been able to get them to work, but some not so much. I think the standard, if there is a standard, is the 5 for $1, 1"OD x 1/2" ID ferrite toroids from electronic goldmine. I have also salvaged some ferrite toroids from computer power supplies that work well too, although I have no data on the permeability of those toroids.

Thanks for posting your circuit. I see you have already received some helpful suggestions. You will get it going on 1.5 volts for sure.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 17, 2009, 10:05:51 PM

Quote from: ian middleton on November 17, 2009, 03:43:05 PM
G'day all.

@ Bill, nice work with the flashlight. Given there are various levels of "deadness" in your batteries how much longer do they last , on average?

Ian:

Thank you. Most of those batteries are from my digital camera from my business and they appear to stop working and are declared "dead" at between 1.1 and 1.2 volts. I will keep everyone posted on the longevity of this new light but I have not done a test like that yet. We can almost roughly guess what it might be however. The light called for 4.5 volts and I am feeding it about 6 volts or so now with the JT. LEDs, we have found, will light on mostly volts with very little amp draw so, my guess would be at least 3 times longer but, we will see. When I lit those 400 leds from the Fuji, that was putting out mostly volts from the single AA battery.

This modification is very easy for anyone here to replicate. The hardest part is finding a flashlight body that has enough room for the AA battery and the 1" OD toroid. After that, the rest is easy. So easy, even I could do it.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 17, 2009, 10:41:19 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on November 17, 2009, 09:40:43 PM

@jeanna, when you say 48ohms to base, is this from + to base across coil and all?

Hi jadaro,

The pot goes from the base of the transistor to one end of the coil. (so, not across the coil but in series, if you will.)

In the past, we have agreed to call this the 'base resistor'.

I hope I didn't just make it worse!

jeanna

at the end of the pointer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 17, 2009, 10:42:21 PM

Hi pirate . Nice Mod .I see your thinking like me when i see three and 4 batteries powering an led . I wanted to let you and everyone else that you dont have to use a big torroid . I have these tiny Small little bitty ferrite beads that work just as good with 8 to 11 turns and a 1 k ,2n3904 or an Msp darlington . you can slide 5 of them on one leg of a transistor . I use # 32 wire and they can mod even the tiniest light .
ANd one more thing . I just got lots of FREE supplies from 7 different electronics companies . all the led transistors backlights light tubes and pipes torroids ics you name it all for free .I got what should have cost over 200 bucks worth of stuff all delivered with in 2 -3 days UPS . I have a list if anyone is interested . Its too big to post here .
Take care all .
Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 17, 2009, 10:45:54 PM

in my opinion ... the jt works because you intrupt the flow of engery ...

so if this is true ...

you could perform a simple test .. just 1 wire

like this

+.....sw.......coil....diode....cap..... -

try it :) then add a cap across input switch..

is ;D ;D

cap on input need be nonpolorized what will result ?

ill tell ya but you dont want to hear it ... ;D ;) i have done this and about a few hundred other things ..

the colpase will flow both ways ... it will no matter what it is going to want to go to the switch but the cap welcomes it .. depending on resistance of diode .. with the CORRECT caps diodes need not be used .. ;) and it will still flow to the switch ... so .... grab it .. now your in a posion to configre it to run with gain or to self run ... think about it ... its teslas transformer ... lol

this is getting boring ... soon i can build ... yay!

so when you turn on the switch the cap should fill to 1.5v ... now turn off the switch take a reading ... 8)

now if you do this ...

+.....sw...cap....diode.....coil....diode....cap.....sw........ -

and push both at once what will be ? this is what tought me .... even in a simpler form than this ..

yikes .. lol

i can demo "free engery" lol with a source of engery and a single wire ..... not even a coil .... and so can you ... it is because the speed of the break of the circuit and a spark is dammmmm fast!

results are better always useing a coil ... but the point why this is possible is best understood by slow pulseing by hand .. and watching the effects of doing so ... you learn damm quick ... ya know

back to sanding i need to finish this darn work shop ... just so i can build a nice toy for you all ..

plus i have boxes full of toys to finish over the winter ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 18, 2009, 02:19:01 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on November 17, 2009, 10:42:21 PM
Hi pirate . Nice Mod .I see your thinking like me when i see three and 4 batteries powering an led . I wanted to let you and everyone else that you dont have to use a big torroid . I have these tiny Small little bitty ferrite beads that work just as good with 8 to 11 turns and a 1 k ,2n3904 or an Msp darlington . you can slide 5 of them on one leg of a transistor . I use # 32 wire and they can mod even the tiniest light .
ANd one more thing . I just got lots of FREE supplies from 7 different electronics companies . all the led transistors backlights light tubes and pipes torroids ics you name it all for free .I got what should have cost over 200 bucks worth of stuff all delivered with in 2 -3 days UPS . I have a list if anyone is interested . Its too big to post here .
Take care all .
Al

Al:

Thanks man. Yes, I know you know there are many practical applications for the JT circuit. What size are those small toroids? Do you sell them or do you have a source for us? I have several small flashlights I could modify but the housing is too small for the 1" toroid. I would like to buy a few of the smaller ones to change these over.

Nice find on the electronics goodies. Will you be posting a list on your site? I am sure you have obtained some stuff that a lot of us want. Can you post it somewhere and then put a link here? Or, if you can, post it here because someone might just find that one thing they need for a breakthrough in their experiments and research. Man, I would love to come to a yard sale at your place.

Good to hear from you Al.

Take care,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on November 18, 2009, 03:24:54 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on November 17, 2009, 10:45:54 PM
in my opinion ... the jt works because you intrupt the flow of engery ...
...

i can demo "free engery" lol with a source of engery and a single wire ..... not even a coil .... and so can you ... it is because the speed of the break of the circuit and a spark is dammmmm fast!

results are better always useing a coil ... but the point why this is possible is best understood by slow pulseing by hand .. and watching the effects of doing so ... you learn damm quick ... ya know

...

I think I understand what you getting at here, in any event...Disassembling the JT circuit would mean.

A simple oscillator could be set up to turn on and off slowly, for instance, a low frequency audio stream from the headphone jack audio-output ( biphasic ac) of a sound card employing a tone generator to create square waves which could be diode rectified to monophasic ...ie: when corrected in only one direction, the result is a pulse train of frequency which is one half that of the generated frequency...

This newly modified source pulse train could easily be used to connect to the base and emitter of a transistor while the collector - emitter could be used as if it were a standard light switch where the switch is being activated by the monophasic pulse train originated from the half wave rectification. The result would be a pulse activation of the C-E path of the transistor, and would allow your proposed in-line test to manifest under control/led/able circumstances.

Additionally, the same sort of setup could be used to determine the optimum frequency-to-voltage collapse gain ratio of a given input frequency as the tone generator can generate many frequencies at request...

These methods for test components could just as well be a better path to finding an optimum..in the future, i don't think that it will be unheard of to separate the oscillating circuitry from the gain windings circuitry, after all, I have noticed that the majority of flow through to base is far less impressive. Separating these two for testing purposes to see what happens with the path from positive through coil/base resistor/base-emitter

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 18, 2009, 04:18:28 AM

@ kooler

Now I am not sure if my SCR circuit is actually working. It is too hard to do this without a scope. So I have decided to give up on it. Good luck on your circuit and please post your results.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 18, 2009, 08:33:45 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on November 18, 2009, 02:19:01 AM

Al:

Thanks man. Yes, I know you know there are many practical applications for the JT circuit. What size are those small toroids? Do you sell them or do you have a source for us? I have several small flashlights I could modify but the housing is too small for the 1" toroid. I would like to buy a few of the smaller ones to change these over.

Nice find on the electronics goodies. Will you be posting a list on your site? I am sure you have obtained some stuff that a lot of us want. Can you post it somewhere and then put a link here? Or, if you can, post it here because someone might just find that one thing they need for a breakthrough in their experiments and research. Man, I would love to come to a yard sale at your place.

Good to hear from you Al.

Take care,

Bill

Hi . Ok i'll post it here . Most all these Companies you can order samples every week and month , Continuous , so you never have to buy parts again !!!!!
Semiconductors . someone sent me this list and i don't actually know who made it . I didn't but i did get all the parts i'll ever need ! IF you have acompany name that helps also . and be sure to tell what project your using . exampls . Low power Lighting applications ...etc..

Microchip The de-facto standard for annoying microcontroller design. Regardless, it's up there with the 8051 and AVR in popularity. It seems like you can get their more popular <$5 microcontrollers sampled. Also, of course, are their little eeprom memory chips, mid-freq RF chips and 'analog glue.' According to their FAQ , you can get 3 of 4 different parts, twice a month, shipped via 3-day.

"Microchip is so sweet. They always ship without hassle and never send you spam. They don't require a phone and have online ordering."
Atleast in Canada, your samples are sent FedEx to the local sales office, then sent to your address.
Seems to now charge a $7.50 USD processing fee

Atmel Samples are shipped from distributors, but I've gotten chips successfully. I've even gotten engineering samples for unreleased chips!

"Seems to be hard to obtain for a hobbyist." -jkx
"I got a good number of AVRs from a friendly distributor without a hassle." -Eriador
"If you use the sample form on the website, you will never receive the samples. So I emailed my local sales office and asked them for samples and they sent me some in about 2 weeks. - koolkat

Analog Devices High quality analog components, from the lowly comparator to the 60Ms/s D/A converter. Almost, but not everything, is available and I've found that sending a friendly email or calling them will net you what you're looking for. Unofficially, if its less than $10, it isn't a problem. The FAQ clams that Order limits are 2 of 3 parts, but there is no limit to how many samples you can request (although more than every other week is probably pushing your luck).

Maxim/Dallas Semiconductor DC-DC converters, serial line drivers, motor control, RF...Maxim specializes in "this part does one thing and does it they way you want it" chip design. If you want something analog, they've probably got it in stock. You'll need to log in first, but they'll send 2 of 8 parts (although I've never been turned down when asking for more) once per 90 days. I've received almost everything within a week.

I order samples alot from Maxim and they never turned me down. And I order way more than once per 90 days and they have never turned me down. - koolkat

National Semiconductor National makes the analog work horses of the industry, and they also have some nice DC/DC conveter and VCO/PLL design tools that do all that Ipeak math for you. If you're a student (or play one on TV) you can order up to 5 of almost any part, once a week. Usually arrives in a few days.

"We regret that your sample order below requires a shipping charge" I probably don't look enough like a business.

Fairchild Semiconductor The twin of National. You'll need to register but the only time I ordered something it was sent FedEx express and they didnt mind that I wanted 10. They have some policy , perhaps when you click on it, it won't say "updated soon."

Fairchild limits samples to 5 line items per week per customer and requires a pay email address.

Fairchild wants you to submit a phone number when you register for free samples. They claim it is only to provide UPS with the information in case they have trouble delivering. I didn't give them a phone number and they held my sample order until I negotiated in email with them to clarify why they needed a phone number. In the end, they nicely shipped my samples for free without getting my phone number. I was very pleased.

Fairchild now requires a Corporate e-mail address,

"Fairchild offers free samples to corporate customers with corporate email accounts we are able to validate.
The email address you are using does not pass our validation. We are unable to ship free samples to you. "

Lumex Lumex has LEDs, high power LEDs, LCDs, backlights, light pipes, and other such. Just look at their various products, and if you can get a sample, there will be a little shopping cart. I know they have high power LEDs, light pipes, and backlights available for sampling. I'm not sure on the specifics of what you can get, and I haven't tried to order anything yet. From their Product Sample Cart page:

It is our practice to offer samples from available stock to our customers' technical staff for new designs or substitution evaluation and qualification. Products in sample quantities for any other purpose can be purchased via our distributors. Actual shipment and quantity of samples is subject to availability and unit price. We reserve the right to decline any sample request that in our opinion does not comply with our standard practice.

Texas Instruments Great things come from TI. More analog, of course. DSPs, some logic, battery management. You can sample anything off their big list . 8 different parts per order, with 1 each of the expensive stuff (like DSPs) and 3 each of the more common chips. I believe you can order as often as you'd like. Boy, was I wrong: they'll put you on a blacklist if you order more than once per 90 days. eek.

Note: TI now requires you to pay the shipping costs for free samples. They require you submit a phone number. After you've submitted, their salesmen will annoy you with phone calls from time to time. Bleh!

I got some samples from TI and I didn't get any calls... They have very fast shipping. - Vaati

Cirrus Logic Digital chips, D/A converters, Ethernet controllers, audio/video decoders, etc...Sometimes require a little encouragement/email to get their samples to you.

Linear Technologies More high quality parts, finally added 'one click' sampling for most of their electronics.

Packages are sent via Fedex Express

Freescale (previously Motorola)A variety of ASICs, microcontrollers, and other 'high function' semiconductors. Has a sample program where you can order 5 parts, 3 times per month.

Freescale also has a range of MEMS sensors. Their sample system requests basic information "what are your intentions with our parts". Shipping is generally through FedEx or UPS.
I've successfully gotten samples shipped by UPS Next Day Air for free, with few questions asked. I didn't even have to deal with a person.

Allegro Microsystems A smaller manufacturer of mostly DC/DC converters, you can sample from their website. Samples are sent via distributors, and they usually contact you before. (And sometimes refuse)

Philips Semi Lots of chips many ASICs, you have to call the regional sales office to get parts.

ST Microelectronics

"ST will happily send you up to 8 different samples for free. Quantity for each chip varies (I got anything from 3 to 5), and you have to register and provide some semi-credible excuse on what you intend to do with the goodies. If you're into audio, you could do worse than use STM's chips." - Luca R.

"They ship via UPS, the way of delivery I am not sure of." - curriegrad2004

They ship via UPS Saver.

> "ST is amazing - they ship by overnight UPS (to BC, Canada, anyway), don't ask too many questions, and (apparently) will ship to anyone with a mailing address that isn't a PO Box. Currently (July 19, 2009), they're offering R-LINK JTAG adapters, but please don't abuse this, because they're being awfully nice, and they will remove them if you do." - ffejery

Cypress Cypress will send you some samples without too much issues. Don't forget to receive the email asking you additional information (even you fill all the required forms) - JkxThe wireless USB modules are definitely worth checking out.

"They may not send all requested parts"

Vishay Optoelectronics and Diodes

Find the deal on sampling at: Products A-ZHow to Get Samples You need to register first ( free ). Will let you know if my non-profit request for 10 led's is sucessful.

Intersil

I just got 10 HIP4081AIP chips from Intersil as samples.

ON Semiconductor The other half of Motorola's semiconductor business (see Freescale) they manufacture a broad selection of logic, passive, and interface ICs. Samples incur a $15-20USD handling charge but nearly everything is samplable and they're happy to ship 10 each of 8 items or more.Samples come 2 days FedEx express, although some samples are shipped "at market lead time" and take up to a month before shipping.

An excellent source for weird and special transistors.

Sensirion Manufacturer of a selection of sensors; occasionally, they offer them for sampling.

Silicon Laboratories They allow you to sample their 8051 MCU's but not other ICs. 4 different parts per order, with 8 parts total, and 3 orders in a 30 day period.

Central Semi Apparently also does samples, but I have no myself with it.

Zilog Manufactures MCUs, not much selection but they'll send you a lot of stuff.
Connectors

Molex A full-range supplier of interconnects, sockets, cables, etc. They'll send you 3 or so of almost all their parts, usually very quickly, but sometimes not at all.

I requested samples and they shipped them the next day via USPS First Class(fancy way to say "standard") - koolkat

Tyco / AMP A similar range as to Molex's. You can request samples by sending mail to the "Ask A Question" link.

ITW/Fastex Sells hardware, some of which may be useful for electronics projects (connectors, clips, etc). Looks like you can sample up to 15 pieces of any part they offer.

RIA connect Sell various connectors. I've not yet ordered from them but it seams pretty straight forward. The order form has a spot for 6 different samples.

Keystone electronics Connectors of all kinds, USB, serial, battery holders (coin cell, AA, N, SMD and through-hole) and moreNo questions asked, FedEx 2-day for free.

SamTec "They ship samples quite quickly, and I've never been pestered with followup calls."

Mill-Max Connectors and IC sockets. They seem to ship quickly with no hassle and at no charge.

Maybe not so friendly anymore. I just tried to order a couple connectors and was sent this in reply:

Thank you for your interest in Mill-Max products. The samples you requested may be purchased through our authorized distributor Digi-Key. Please contact them at http://www.digikey.com .

Regards,
Mill-Max Mfg. Corp.
516-922-6000

Norcomp Many connectors. Haven't tried ordering, looks like you can request 2 each of 2 different part numbers and they will charge you for shipping.

FCI USB and other computer connectors. Can request samples of 2 different part numbers at a time.

3M Makes everything from Post-itÃ,Â® notes to heavy industrial products. Most relevant for hobbyist electronics is probably connectors , including DIP sockets, and will ship samples for free.
Enclosures

PacTec Enclosures Has a large line of nice enclosures for your electronics project, many with battery cases and clips. Will send you 2 of their new designs for free. You can buy many of their cases from Mouser or directly from their site.

"Ships via FedEx Ground" - curriegrad2004
"Now has a $10 Shipping fee" - bman22

New Age Enclosures Has three different but kinda nice enclosures. They'll send you one of each if you ask.

I recently emailed them to request a sample of just 1 of their enclosures, and they turned me down. - Logan Williams

Due to the number of inquires we are no longer able to send samples for free. There is a $40 minimum order policy to cover order processing. Please increase your order amount to proceed to checkout. - Copy from their site, 6-21-2008 - Seth

Hammond Manufacturing I don't particularly like their enclosures, but they are high quality, inexpensive and apparently they'll send you free parts if you call them up.

Serpac - Offers many different project enclosures, from heavy toolboxes to tiny remote control style cases. Many cases offer clear or IR transparent front plates as well as AA and 9V battery holders. Just send them an email and they'll ship right away.
Switches

NKK Switches - Has a lot of different switches and buttons. And there was no scary questions asked - yosh
Others

MicroMetals Sells nice toroids for RF and power filtering and line conversion. Nice bunch of people, will send you 2 x 5 toroids for free.

Marktech Optoelectronics LED and LED-related electronics products. Will apparently send you 2 of any of their products. They aren't that friendly anymore, will only send samples to those doing business with them.

Fox Electronics Sells crystals, oscillators, etc. Apparently will ship up to 9 samples of a crystal.

Philips Lumileds Apparenly if you call their distributors you can get free samples of their very popular Luxeon superbright (1W+) LEDs (not anymore)

Purdy Electronics You can sample LCD displays (free for alpha-numeric modules but will cost you for graphic displays) and LEDs from them, but they check every order and will call you to confirm, and they do not send to students or hobbyists.

These people are very helpful in their e-mail support however it is quite hard to get samples from them and they dont like to sample multiple products for free. Just talk to them and I am quite sure they will be able to hook you up. Also have a good excuse to have parts such as an electronics company as you will have to answer quite a few questions before they will ship you samples!!! --Ollee

It was very easy to get an alphanumeric display from these people. They are very friendly. It only took me one day to set up and finalize the sample order. Ships via UPS Ground. EDIT: I forgot to mention that I have a corporate email address, maybe that's why they were so nice...they even offered to send me more. - koolkat

GIL Technologies --A GML1000 and other RF PCB-laminate manufacturer. (When FR-4 just wont cut it.) They'll send you a 12"x18" sheet of their product for free. Their website is down as of March 12th, 2007

RichCo Inc Various plastic hardware, fan mounting stuff, lots of wire ties and wire tie accessories, cable management, circuit board mounting and supports

Coilcraft Sells RF chip inductor, power inductor, power magnetics, and other inductors. You can sample from their website. They ship the samples by USPS-Xpress. On their website, they say they may restrict samples for non-OEM activities but they have a student policy which allow them to send me some inductors, you have to send them an e-mail with the name and the phone number of the teacher and the nature of the project.

Parallax You may be able to get a sample Basic Stamp 1 (or other parallax products) from them if you politely contact the sales dept.

LittelFuse They sell fuses and similar stuff. They have great PTCs, and they do deliver.

Bourns Lots of inductors, transformers, and other magnetic products, including J. W. Miller products . Checked "school/student" on my request and got a few samples sent for free.

API Delevan Inductors, transformers. Sample form allows up to 5 different part numbers.

Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on November 18, 2009, 10:44:36 AM

Quote from: resonanceman on November 17, 2009, 08:07:55 PM
guruji

I added each diode one at a time as I built my Jesus charger .
The voltage should go up a little as you add each diode .

The Jesus charger alone is not enough to get the circuit to self charge .
I am working on getting the part count down .........but my firsr tries required about 9 coils most of them hooked up to provide both feedback and flyback .
Most of those coils were JT coils .
I hooked one winding on each toroid in series for flyback ........I connected each of the other windings on those coils to the cap on the Jesus charger .

Often I connected the secondary for flyback because it was larger .........but sometimes I used the secondary for feedback ...... it all depends on the circuit and the coil .
I just tried connecting it and checked the results .

gary

Hi Resonanceman thanks for your help about the Jesus charger. Do you know of a good schematic for charging same battery or can you please show me how I can modify the Jesus charger?
Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on November 18, 2009, 08:34:51 PM

Quote from: guruji on November 18, 2009, 10:44:36 AM
Hi Resonanceman thanks for your help about the Jesus charger. Do you know of a good schematic for charging same battery or can you please show me how I can modify the Jesus charger?
Thanks

Do you have at least 6 JT coills laying around?
Other coils may do but I have used mostly JT coils .

I have not taken any pictures if my setups because I connect all the coils with alligator clip leads . They tend to be a mess by the time they are done .......

I think the way to go about drawing the schematics is to draw the flyback and feedback connections in separate drawings ....... It might take me a day or 2 to get the drawings done .
( they are not that complex ........but time is limited )

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 18, 2009, 10:08:44 PM

@IST .
Hey Ist . Iam repeating an Experiment for you and verify that Yes a standard Jt using the transistor and torroid you ordered does indeed Charge a 650f cap . I am running one now for about an hour and 15 mins the bcap is at 613 V . Started was a little under 450 . So yes and probable can improve it a bit . i just wound 11 turns Bi on one . its drawing 14 ma and lighting a secondary with two half watt leds about half bright . Again only about 22 turns on a secondary and can be improved . I'll let you know tomorrow what the V is .
Gnight
gadget

***PS*** forgot to say its running an a rechargeable EverReady 2500mah and its volts are 1.295 and the cap is taking a 100th of a volt (last number)hit every 30 seconds its 630v now and now its 647 about a 10th of a volt every 5 minutes .
l8r
Edit###this morning at 7 est the v is 1390 . Jt still half bright and volts are 1.292!!! lost 3 100ths of a volt . Nothing

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on November 18, 2009, 10:22:32 PM

Quote from: guruji on November 18, 2009, 10:44:36 AM
Hi Resonanceman thanks for your help about the Jesus charger. Do you know of a good schematic for charging same battery or can you please show me how I can modify the Jesus charger?
Thanks

guruji

Here is a drawing of the flyback part of the circuit
I have added to the inductor on most but not all the extra coils . The longer coil should be thought of as the secondary .
Notice that in most cases I have connected the secondary for flyback.
With 2 of the coils I left the windings the same size . I call a 1 to 1 coil a splitter . ( in this circuit ) It sends about half the signal back for feedback .

Notice there is a load. This circuit has to be loaded to work properly .
My favorate load is a 90 LED array ..........but I am outgrowing it ....... I need to find a bigger load before I burn this array out .

I am out of time for this tonight

I will try to do the feeback side tomorow .

In the drawing the JT and the JT ciols are black
The Jesus charger is blue
Wires to the coils are red

gary

Edit

Bill

Sorry the drawing is so big .
I am not that good at drawings like this
It is late , I tried to crop the image but can't find a way to do it with paint .
I usually crop with a image program from HP ......it won't find it.

Please feel free to crop the image or shrink it down so it fits better

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 18, 2009, 11:02:09 PM

thats great news gadget!

i cant wait to hear more of the tests you are doing with that big cap and aa battery ...

a simple jt powering a few leds and chargeing a big cap that can supply massive amps ... if need be ..

just perfect!

bill you gonna join in and anyone who may have bought the HUGE CAPS...

i will use 1 " gold mines to start and ill whip up a few diffrent ones ..

probally be like a week or so yet till everything arrives ..

then im a wind a few good ones ;D

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 18, 2009, 11:48:12 PM

Gary:

No problem, it is taken care of. I use a free program call image fix and enhance. Not a lot of bells and whistles but, it is simple and also converts to jpg, or any other format.

Thanks for posting it.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 19, 2009, 01:45:34 AM

Gary,
I was just thinking last night how I wished you would make a drawing.
GOOD LISTENING!

So, thank you for this clear picture.
I too have had a big day and I will have a good look tomorrow... If the power is still on in the morning, that is. (another windy storm. I love wind :D )

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 19, 2009, 07:12:01 AM

Quote from: resonanceman on November 18, 2009, 10:22:32 PM
guruji

Here is a drawing of the flyback part of the circuit
I have added to the inductor on most but not all the extra coils . The longer coil should be thought of as the secondary .
Notice that in most cases I have connected the secondary for flyback.
With 2 of the coils I left the windings the same size . I call a 1 to 1 coil a splitter . ( in this circuit ) It sends about half the signal back for feedback .

Notice there is a load. This circuit has to be loaded to work properly .
My favorate load is a 90 LED array ..........but I am outgrowing it ....... I need to find a bigger load before I burn this array out .

I am out of time for this tonight

I will try to do the feeback side tomorow .

In the drawing the JT and the JT ciols are black
The Jesus charger is blue
Wires to the coils are red

gary

Edit

Bill

Sorry the drawing is so big .
I am not that good at drawings like this
It is late , I tried to crop the image but can't find a way to do it with paint .
I usually crop with a image program from HP ......it won't find it.

Please feel free to crop the image or shrink it down so it fits better

@Gary . this is a nice setup . What is the input Volts and current input please . NIce Schematic . Do you mind id i copy your picture and put it on My site for display ?. You get the Credit of Course . I would never take credit for another persons diagrams .

gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 19, 2009, 07:29:00 AM

@ ist and all. while this may not seem significant charging an Ultra cap this size is a big deal . I now have enough energy in this cap to burn wire or make a small heater or light incandescent bulbs or run a fuje or several other Lts . Approximately 600 amps at 1.4 volts in the ultracap charged from a standard Jt using the transistor junction and a 1n60 diode to the Bcap. and what is amazing is the battery is not dropping significantly 3 100's of a volt in 8 or so hours and its lighting 2 500ma leds to boot . This is definably over the unity of the original battery in my opinion . what y'all think ? someone else that has a 650f ucap please double confirm this .

gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 19, 2009, 08:36:09 AM

thank you gadget!

this is proof .! i am happy your the first to post the proof !

it makes me smile :)

now the lippy ones CAN go for a hike to the bench and confirm the proof!

;D

william

i bet it shuts up a few ... ;D ;D ;D ;D

oo the wind is good ;D cuz im blowing in the winds of change .. ;)

for j scorpians winds of change .. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1XhQXl1_lQ

take me to the magic of the moment! on this glory day ! where the children of tommorow DREAM AWAY!
IN THE WINDS OF CHANGE!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 19, 2009, 09:10:37 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on November 19, 2009, 08:36:09 AM
thank you gadget!

this is proof .! i am happy your the first to post the proof !

it makes me smile :)

now the lippy ones and go for a hike to the bench and confirm the proof!

;D

william

i bet it shuts up a few ... ;D ;D ;D ;D

Well i am doing two more experiments while the first one runs all day .
The second Experiment used a fully charged everready 2500 mah battery to 1.425 volts . taking a second 650 f 2.7 v cap i jumped the aa battery to a discharged Bcap . the wires got hot and the cap slowly rode to .500 and the battery was discharged in 10 minutes to dead . It appears the battery like a battery charger sees the cap as a Short so you cannot recharge an Ultra cap with one aa battery although if you have a 50 amp battery charger you can recharge this cap in one minuit but your battery charger must be a heavy duty one . the little 10 amp one pops off in 30 seconds and the cap is no where near half full . BUT a JT can RECHARGE THEM:) However i have an ongoing light cube experiment #3 that uses One of My Cis solar panels (on sale Now ) and one will Charge the Bcap up in a days worth of sun to 2.6 - 2-7 volts . be sure not to over charge the cap above 2.7 . Use a Zener Diode or regulator to make sure . These caps are very dangerous and haS a Screw on one side . Do not unscrew this . this is where they put a few milligrams of Poison electrolyte in i was told and it will kill you if breaths and after that small amount of electrolyte is gone so is your cap . it is sealed Permanently if you don't tamper . I understand this screw is also a sort of pressure valve and will blow out IF you over charge these caps so be careful .
gadget

edit *** Bcap is now 1.697 and aa source for jt is 1.290 . so from 10 pm last (1.295)night to 10:30 am 1.290)the current drain from an 11 turn jt dropped 5 100ths of a volt (or is it 5 1000ths)while providing and over the unity charge to a 650f 2.7 v cap .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 19, 2009, 09:42:34 AM

careful on your new feet we do not want you to fall!

W&M
IST & JT

THE FUTURE IS IN THE AIR .. I FEEL IT EVERYWHERE!

@ gary!

that is a really nice unit you are building ! i cant wate to make her sing! ;D

NO SUGAR TONIGHT . GUESS WHO ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPqT031SWT4

ITS THE NEW SPLENDID LADY COME TO CALL!
ITS THE NEW MOTHER NATURE TAKEING OVER ! ;)
SHE'S GETTING US ALL!

NOW IM FALLEN FROM HER SKYS.........

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 19, 2009, 11:07:51 AM

Gadget:

This confirms what I was seeing with the big cap and my Fuji JT and my EER. (Earth Battery) I think the 650F caps are a better way to capture all of the energy of the back emf spikes that we have seen on our scopes. A battery may hold on to some of them, but I have believed from my first experiment with them and JT's that the big caps are a more efficient way of gathering all of this energy...or most of it.

As we all know, my EER puts out in the mA's range, around 19 at about 1.9-2 volts. Well, I can charge that large cap over night easily. So, now I have 2.7 volts and a lot of available power. One thing I don't get is why I didn't need a diode to keep the energy in the cap from flowing back to the EER once it was higher than the EER's output? Maybe with a diode of some kind, the big cap would charge faster?

In all of my experiments with supercaps I have seen that they act like a battery when releasing energy over time, but this charging effect is one major difference and, for our purposes with JT circuits, I think that difference really helps us.

If it is OU or not, I don't know but, I can say for sure that it is at least a very efficient way to capture energy (the spikes) from JT circuits.

Bill

PS That photo (Of the Fuji Circuit) on your website that you mentioned earlier, that was taken by me and posted here. (You can see my famous Blue and white table cloth) This is open source here and, even though you do not need it in my opinion, you have my permission to use it on your site. Someone else marked it up after I posted it but, like you said, we share here, no strings attached. Just wanted to mention that.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 19, 2009, 01:00:55 PM

@Bill
Thanks For the permission . I have removed all the Pictures untie i review them and cut Out Freezers two . The thing is i don't need to but he called me a thief for "STEALING " his pictures and Displaying Them . He has a problem and Don't understand openSource at all . Who cares .

Well It's obvious that with the ultra capacitor capturing Energy from a Jt verse charging a battery is quite different . The Ucap Is storing amps that is proportional to the volts for a given farad rating . Its not COLD ELECTRICITY" It's infact enuff to hurt you and burn electrical components and wires UP!! I need someone else to test one on a goldmine 5/1 toroid using 11 turns Bi . Not to mention all the excess energy produced from the secondary . thats and extra over the unity not accounted for running 1 watt of leds . BTW as the Bcap charged the secondary volts are increasing . the halfbright leds are now almost full bright and you cant stare at them anymore . On could argue that this is overunity as described . its a conversion of energy going on 4 sure ! heck i can now swap out the cap to run the JT and Charge the rechargeable battery up in a few minuets to where the battery was last night . it only needs 5 1000ths of a volt to get back . and you know as well as i do that that ultracap will run that Jt for a week now at a 2 volt charge !!. Amazing . I never thought of it that way .
Next test will be tomorrow when i run the same circuit on two ultra caps and then swap em a few times and check then . but as i see it now its higher that the battery and 10,000 X the current of the battery .
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on November 19, 2009, 01:05:07 PM

guruji

I finished the other drawing

I am putting them both here so that it is easy to see that one side of each coil is used for feedback the other for flyback.

It first when connecting the feedback lines I would measure the voltage I no longer do that .
We are dealing with spikes here ....... a spike just a microsecond before or after another spike is a whole new event ...... I have seen the time that I had one coil measure over 100 V and I added another coil for feedback ......it measured just over 1 V .......my LED array got slightly brighter .

The whole point of these drawings is to show that all the flyback connections are in series between the secondary and the load .
All the feedback connections are connected to the Jesus charger

I usually try connecting the secondary of the JT coil for flyback ......if the secondary is to large ....it acts as a choke and the output drops to near zero.
When this happens it is probably a good time to try connecting the primary of that JT for flyback ......and the secondary for feedback .

Bill
Thanks for resizing for me

Gadget
As you know ......this is open source .
It is nice to give credit if you want to use stuff I have posted here ......but it is not required.
A big part of why I am here is because of a great injustice
I would like to be a small part of fixing that injustice .
Tesla tried to give us electricity that could not be metered .
He was blacklisted for his efforts .
This was a serious injustice ......but it is not the injustice I spoke of.
After Tesla was blacklisted it started being ACTIVELY taught that over unity of any kind is impossible .
Over Unity power is easy ............but it is not impossible .
If you can use some of my ideas to show others that OU is possible I will feel honored

It is my opinion that if we do not find a practical OU energy source soon ........the human civilization will not last to much longer .....at least not as we know it now .

The oil companys say we have enough oil for 50 more years ....... They do not speak of the way prices will go up as that oil is consumed .
I would say if we do have 50 years of oil .......we have less than 5 years before we have all out war for the remaining reserves .
Those that worship only money and power will not wait until the oil runs out to take action ....... at that point there is no power to take .

gary

Edit

few more thoughts
If you plan to try this use a JT with high voltage and good power.
A JT that does a good job of lighting a florescent tube or a CFL would be a good start .
My best results were with JTs made with either the whole flyback transformer coil .....or wound on the core of a flyback transformer coil.
As more coils are connected the voltage does tend to drop ......but the current seems to rise giving more light from my array with less volts .

I do not have information about the input current or voltage.
I am now running all my projects with 12 V .......however I used the exact same setup using a single AA battery

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on November 19, 2009, 01:07:04 PM

@gadget

If he is taking about the fuji circuit , i have looked and it seems that grondloop is the one that made the drawing ...

Its in the first 20 pages ...

So freezer can go ...

I have made a jt a long time ago that was the fastest cap charger i made.
The only explanation i could come up with it the weigh of the secondary(30gauge)matched the weight of the jt coil (22gauge).

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 19, 2009, 01:10:35 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on November 19, 2009, 01:00:55 PM
@Bill
Thanks For the permission . I have removed all the Pictures untie i review them and cut Out Freezers two . The thing is i don't need to but he called me a thief for "STEALING " his pictures and Displaying Them . He has a problem and Don't understand openSource at all . Who cares .

Well It's obvious that with the ultra capacitor capturing Energy from a Jt verse charging a battery is quite different . The Ucap Is storing amps that is proportional to the volts for a given farad rating . Its not COLD ELECTRICITY" It's infact enuff to hurt you and burn electrical components and wires UP!! I need someone else to test one on a goldmine 5/1 toroid using 11 turns Bi . Not to mention all the excess energy produced from the secondary . thats and extra over the unity not accounted for running 1 watt of leds . BTW as the Bcap charged the secondary volts are increasing . the halfbright leds are now almost full bright and you cant stare at them anymore . On could argue that this is overunity as described . its a conversion of energy going on 4 sure ! heck i can now swaw out the cap to run the JT and Charge the rechargeable battery up in a few minuits to where the battery was last night . it only needs 5 1000ths of a volt to get back . and you know as well as i do that that ultracap will run that Jt for a week now at a 2 volt charge !!. Amazing . I never thought of it that way .
Next test will be tomorrow when i run the same circuit on two ultra caps and then swap em a few times and check then . but as i see it now its higher that the battery and 10,000 X the current of the battery .
Gadget

;D ;D ;D ;D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jA-7iEW15Y

HERE WE GO 1 MORE TIME HERE WE GO 1 MORE TIME NOW WE SPIN IN NOW WE SPINN IN NOW SPIN IN NOW WE SPUN

;D ;D ;D ;D

W

WHEN IN DOUBT FLIP IT OUT !

WORLD PEACE! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_UpcSz5DTg&feature=channel

HAPPY REBIRTH DAY! ;D I LOVE YOU WHO EVER YOU MAY HAVE BEEN !

MAKE A WISH! THERE NO MISTAKES ....ONLY OPER TUNE ITYS ;D TO LEARN!

NO BODY IS LEFT OUT !

GARY YOUR WORK SECOND TO NONE .. IM PROUD TO BE IN YOUR COMPANY!

EACH AND EVERYONE OF YOU ! EVEN THE HATERS ... CUZ THERE GONNA LEARN TOO! 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 19, 2009, 01:32:38 PM

thanks Gary and Thank Mark . I never took credit for those photo . I posted them just as i collected them . People know what i worked on and who made what . from now on all be Giving Credit to who made it if i can determine that :) post your name on a diagram it make self explanatory . and your right Groundloop and Xee2 are one of the best electronic guys in here and i have admired there work very much. Same with everyone i know . I personally dont care as i have seen My schematics and works everywhere and i ask nothing at all .It's there for the taking . take it and run with it if you can use it . The only things i didn't post are the Pat circuits .This is where i create animosity i think .can't help it . If i can get an energy product out asap and look out for my little one then that's the price i will pay .

About your cap charger Mark .As i said this was a no frills test for ist with a plain Jane JT .It charged an ultra cap with a release of over 3000 amps short or approx 600 amps per second and if we just use milliamps them you see the potential there . I wish you had one of these monsters .I bet your upgraded Jt will do a much better job than this one . the 1500farad is more than twice this one . It runs a 3 volt filament bulb for over a week . Ok got to go a bit
take it easy guys . I'm stoked for IST . i know O U it present in this little demonstration . i just want someone else to replicate it and post also to Double confirm .

gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on November 19, 2009, 03:55:11 PM

Thanks Resonanceman about the diagrams. Can you please tell me about the large cap where to connect it is it there as indicated?
What are those coils flying alone? Are they connected with each other?
Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 19, 2009, 06:39:23 PM

@ist .
Experiment 1 Done . I'm disconnecting the 650fARAD CAP .Its 2.603 Volts and Hot . I don't like to fill it to maximum 2.7 The Standard 11 turn Jt with a 22 secondary ,2n2222a metal transistor has been running since 10:30 last night and its 6:30 pm now . Its volts on the battery was 1.295 and its setting pretty at 1.290 Volts still powering 1 watt worth of high power leds . This Jt i will let run for a few days Probably more like weeks . I recommend to all experimenting with single Cells AA batteries to get an EverReady rechargeable 2500 to 2800 mah battery . They are the Stuff for durability and Long life . This is the type of battery i use in My fugi Mod to get 18-24 hours of Cfl light .

l8r

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 19, 2009, 08:52:37 PM

Hi Gadget,

I would like a very specific set of instructions for this jt cap collector.
I seem to frequently get the direction of diodes reversed, and it terrifies me to think I could explode a cap, or even hurt one, by putting a diode in wrong.

I COULD just reverse what ever I thought it should be, but I do not like that idea either.

So, please help by making very specific directions.
I cannot remember if you do not like to make the drawings or the pics. I think the former, but either way, I will appreciating SEEING which way those diode stripes should go.

Well, maybe I can help here:

The led is a diode.
Is the diode in parallel with the led? and then is it going the same direction?
Then where in relation to the negative on the led and the diode do I put the pos and neg of the cap. I am assuming that this big cap is supposed to be parallel with the led and the extra diode.

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on November 19, 2009, 10:31:36 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on November 19, 2009, 01:05:07 PM...

Could you post a picture of your setup, or do you have a video?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on November 19, 2009, 11:21:34 PM

@jeanna

that 3.25'' toroid ... have you tried more than 400 turns on it
my little transformer burned up so i am looking for a better replacement...
i saw were lidmotor lit that 10 watt cfl... but my little transformer done that well also
so i was wondering if more turns on it helped or hurt...
cuz my whole mission is do as much damage as possible with as low input as possible

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 20, 2009, 01:55:14 AM

Quote from: kooler on November 19, 2009, 11:21:34 PM
@jeanna

that 3.25'' toroid ... have you tried more than 400 turns on it
my little transformer burned up so i am looking for a better replacement...
i saw were lidmotor lit that 10 watt cfl... but my little transformer done that well also
so i was wondering if more turns on it helped or hurt...

I only used 240 turns on mine. And I lit a 15 watt 18 inch grow light tube.
I was using the MK1 design which required me to determine ahead of time how many turns I would end up with or I would have added more.

As it turned out I got very little voltage until I hit the ring which was at 90 ohms for me.
Lidmotor has more turns and is using the 22 ohms and 50 ohms rheostat.
I do not remember him telling us how many volts. I should ask.

I really like that rheostat part.
(My purpose was in fact, to light a fluoro tube using a hand wound toroid. And while others did this before me, I am getting to be the star. We take turns with this part. )

So, in the end, my answer is: go ahead, put on 500 turns.
Then later you can add another secondary with 500 more.
I have been playing with the way to have both secondaries stay lit at the same time, and I am sure lidmotor will be looking more at this too.
It is not really new, but it is very new for us at this time, and as you can see from his replications, it is very useful.

So... go for it.

I doubt if you will melt anything, so just do it.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 20, 2009, 07:09:36 AM

Quote from: jeanna on November 19, 2009, 08:52:37 PM
Hi Gadget,

I would like a very specific set of instructions for this jt cap collector.
I seem to frequently get the direction of diodes reversed, and it terrifies me to think I could explode a cap, or even hurt one, by putting a diode in wrong.

I COULD just reverse what ever I thought it should be, but I do not like that idea either.

So, please help by making very specific directions.
I cannot remember if you do not like to make the drawings or the pics. I think the former, but either way, I will appreciating SEEING which way those diode stripes should go.

Well, maybe I can help here:

The led is a diode.
Is the diode in parallel with the led? and then is it going the same direction?
Then where in relation to the negative on the led and the diode do I put the pos and neg of the cap. I am assuming that this big cap is supposed to be parallel with the led and the extra diode.

Thank you,

jeanna

Hi jeanna . your another i Appreciate and admire VERY much ! :-*

The Strip Is the Anode or positive . Its easy to remember if you think of an A in school is positive ! If you wind an 11 turn two wire jt on a goldmine 1 inch toroid and use a 2n2222a i and then wind a 22 turn secondary on the other side. i spread the windings after to cover the diameter .

I put the cathode side of my diode (no stripe) on the collector which is + power and so the stripe goes directly to the positive of the cap . the negative or emitter then goes to the negative of the cap . no led here .. the led is placed directly on the secondary . you might have to flip it the way i wound was straight forward do its polarized and no diode on the sec. I also use a 2 k resistor in series with a 10 k mini pot on the base and a 102 cap across the resistor . that's it . same this to remember which way power is applied to an led . the long leg is always positive and the short leg is negative . easy to remember .
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on November 20, 2009, 07:42:50 AM

Quote from: kooler on November 19, 2009, 11:21:34 PM
@jeanna

that 3.25'' toroid ... have you tried more than 400 turns on it
my little transformer burned up so i am looking for a better replacement...
i saw were lidmotor lit that 10 watt cfl... but my little transformer done that well also
so i was wondering if more turns on it helped or hurt...
cuz my whole mission is do as much damage as possible with as low input as possible

Hello Kooler

I made one with I believe it was 240 turns and highly tuned and was getting over 900 vDC. It can probably take more turns but I'm not sure what the saturation threashold is.

edit

Looks like Jeanna already ansewered you.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 20, 2009, 07:49:57 AM

im kind of wondering a few things ...

i have found on manny accounts my out put of my coil is much higher if i do not remove from transistor flyback ..

i also wondered the diffrance of useing a bridge rectifier ... this improves the operation of the mk style jt as it is wound to grabb both n and s magnet feilds hence how true ac is gained .. from square wave dc

so in my tests thease varry your out put a lot ... the resistance .. of the primary is no big deal ...
that i have seen

thease devices love to run at THERE NATURAL RUNNING FREQ.....

then intrupt that .. another trick ... we refer to this as ringgging the bell 2 time . ding ding .. ;D ;)

but truth is gadget had great luck with a BASIC JT...

so the case and point i dont think you can go wrong with this toy .. just no overchargeing the big caps ..

so i have wondered ... j mentions we all take turns ... and i wonder if once the humans go pro ..

if we maybe all share a higher level of concoussiness link that binds as one ..

there must be a structure of order ... that is laied out from the heavens ...

my job here is not only to introduce some of the advanced things but also to bring things back into ballance as for a great deal of my life i lived with out any ballance .. thinking this was true life ..
i now know i had 0 understanding of love and life and this creation ..

lets just say ill never be the same agin as will all of you .. :)

from what i have seen this is a gathering ground for some of the most important super soul beings of the universe .. i have herd this from a friend who knows a shawmann ... and aperently 5 spirits make a soul ... and perhaps a few souls make up a super soul being of light!

like i have said b4 it is the grand awakeing .. or graduation date ... if you like .. the disco .. all are offered there tickets ... not all tickets are collected at the door ...

this hole stage in far more than free engery ... dont get your soul being lost in the sceen... this is 1 of my main reasons for being open source ... i dont want all the money in the world ... thats the lie ... i want to be happy and to learn more of our true origins .. you can easly loose your self in money .. this i will have no part of i like what i have become .. i choose to respect what i have become ..

you all are given this opertunity .. :)

i hope you all make your way there ..

W :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 20, 2009, 08:35:04 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on November 20, 2009, 07:49:57 AM
im kind of wondering a few things ...

i have found on manny accounts my out put of my coil is much higher if i do not remove from transistor flyback ..

i also wondered the diffrance of useing a bridge rectifier ... this improves the operation of the mk style jt as it is wound to grabb both n and s magnet feilds hence how true ac is gained .. from square wave dc

so in my tests thease varry your out put a lot ... the resistance .. of the primary is no big deal ...
that i have seen

thease devices love to run at THERE NATURAL RUNNING FREQ.....

then intrupt that .. another trick ... we refer to this as ringgging the bell 2 time . ding ding .. ;D ;)

but truth is gadget had great luck with a BASIC JT...

so the case and point i dont think you can go wrong with this toy .. just no overchargeing the big caps ..

so i have wondered ... j mentions we all take turns ... and i wonder if once the humans go pro ..

if we maybe all share a higher level of concoussiness link that binds as one ..

there must be a structure of order ... that is laied out from the heavens ...

my job here is not only to introduce some of the advanced things but also to bring things back into ballance as for a great deal of my life i lived with out any ballance .. thinking this was true life ..
i now know i had 0 understanding of love and life and this creation ..

lets just say ill never be the same agin as will all of you .. :)

from what i have seen this is a gathering ground for some of the most important super soul beings of the universe .. i have herd this from a friend who knows a shawmann ... and aperently 5 spirits make a soul ... and perhaps a few souls make up a super soul being of light!

like i have said b4 it is the grand awakeing .. or graduation date ... if you like .. the disco .. all are offered there tickets ... not all tickets are collected at the door ...

this hole stage in far more than free engery ... dont get your soul being lost in the sceen... this is 1 of my main reasons for being open source ... i dont want all the money in the world ... thats the lie ... i want to be happy and to learn more of our true origins .. you can easly loose your self in money .. this i will have no part of i like what i have become .. i choose to respect what i have become ..

you all are given this opertunity .. :)

i hope you all make your way there ..

W :)

Good morning IST ! . Is today the day ? I have a few 3 inch torroids and got a sample coming for that big rig 140mm toroid you posted the link for .they are giving me a price list for these babies . I had to pay for the sample shipping though about 20 dollars BUT anyone can get a Ring for free is you pay shipping . i'll let you in on the pricing when i get it . They Have a minimum monthly quota for dealers so i doubt i will fill that quota and become there Affiliate .
Have a good morning and a cup of java .
today i am going to run the experiment 2 using one charged bcap and one discharged one to see how well that runs on the basic Jt setup . I bet i see ou on that as well . I let the JT run all night long and the main battery is still holding fine . it can run probably another week or more with the EverReady battery producing bright 1 watt worth of light on the secondary . current draw is a measly 11 Ma . I can adjust this higher to about 21 ma with the resistor pot cap setup i am using . This is easily repeatable and anyone can do this .I was not neat at all winding this thing nor soldering the parts together . Is Not luck just something we all knew . the JT Does amazing Things even at a standard level .

Gadget
gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 20, 2009, 09:20:56 AM

yes bro !

i expect today to flow better than yesterday and every day forward there of :)

because of your effords gadget ... this place is no longer the same as it was just 1 day ago ...

8)

william!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 20, 2009, 10:38:53 AM

@IST and All .
Experiment 2 : same JT as before . using a 650farad cap charged to 1.420 volts charging another 650 Farad cap to a charged state of 1.000 volts . This was to save some time and Confirm Over the unity of the run cap . Circuit adjusted to 11 ma input current . BTW an easy way to measure current in put a one ohm resistor in series with positive or negative run battery/cap lead . This way you do not interfere with the circuit operation and can accurately measure the current draw by simply putting you amp meter across the one ohm resistor .
So far the charge bcap is 1.257 and the RUN cap is 1.417 V .
i will stop the experiment when i get the charge capacitor to 1.5 volts . this will be over unity . then i will swap the run and charge Bcap and measure what i have then.. This is a very simple way of showing Over the unity (OU) Exist .Also the cap i am charging was charged to 2.6 volts from yesterday Experiment # 1 . I discharged it to 1 volt using a small Nicrome heater element which glowed brightly for 4 and a half minutes before the cap reached 1 volt . I lit a cig with it :) and it was HOT!!!!!!!!! I could have tripled the Nichrome wire coil and got about 15 minutes short before i hit one volt and that my friends is pure AMPS .I may be the First one in history to actually make a heater from a Jt and a BCap . running from an aa battery :) If i had High Speed i would be the first to post a Video of such a device, SOMEONE replicate this Please . below is the Diagram for the AA setup . It also puts an excess voltage out on the secondary and provides Light and Heat .I am going to improve the JT circuit with bigger torroids and more wire soon . All 1 volt system

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on November 20, 2009, 01:41:33 PM

Quote from: guruji on November 19, 2009, 03:55:11 PM
Thanks Resonanceman about the diagrams. Can you please tell me about the large cap where to connect it is it there as indicated?
What are those coils flying alone? Are they connected with each other?
Thanks

guruji

The cap you circled 1uF
Mine is rated at 250 V
You can probably get by with a lower rating.

A larger cap would buffer the spikes more.
A smaller cap may actually increase the voltage of the spikes a little .

About the coils
Back on reply 9962 I have the drawing you used in your reply and another drawing
The reason for those drawings was to show how to connect those coils to reach a self charging state.
The black in those drawings are the original JT and the extra JT coils that are being used for flyback and feedback .
The blue is the Jesus charger .
The red lines represent wires used to connect the coils for flyback .
The violet lines represent the wires used for feedback .
I did 2 drawings to try to avoid it looking like a jumbled mess.
The real circuit requires BOTH the connections for flyback and feedback.

10 extra coils are shown . I have usually needed 7 to 9 JT coils to reach the state of self charge . ( both battery voltage and output voltage rising )
You will need a pot in place of the resistor on the base of the transistor .
I can not claim OU with this yet ......because it is not quite stable .
It will self charge for a few hours then it drifts out of resonance or something.
A simple adjustment of the pot will put it back into self charging state for another few hours .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on November 20, 2009, 01:53:41 PM

@all And Pirate

I think now is time to start a second tread for the jt , since pretty much every confirmed the potential i have seen in this project months ago .
congrats everyone !

Now is time for the Second Stage jt tread Or SSJT ...

First we should include some idea on what that should be .

Ex
first jt really fast charge small caps to high voltage quick discharge into SSJT and see what we can do at about 60 cyc ...

Or go hair pin circuit with spark gaps (on the flyback jt)

A lifter project would be really nice ...

Any way lets start SSJT talks! I can't wait to see this one !

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 20, 2009, 01:54:46 PM

Gary:

Maybe I missed it in one of your posts and I didn't see it on your drawing but, what battery are you using to power your circuit? If it is an AA battery, or similar, I was thinking that maybe you could substitute a supercap for the power source and, I am only guessing here, maybe it would stay in resonance because the cap would maintain a constant value as opposed to a battery?

In other words, charge the cap from a battery, and then run your circuit from the supercap. I don't know for a fact that the supercap would perform in this manner, but I strongly suspect that it might.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on November 20, 2009, 02:15:48 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on November 20, 2009, 10:38:53 AM
@IST and All .
Experiment 2 : same JT as before . using a 650farad cap charged to 1.420 volts charging another 650 Farad cap to a charged state of 1.000 volts . This was to save some time and Confirm Over the unity of the run cap . Circuit adjusted to 11 ma input current . BTW an easy way to measure current in put a one ohm resistor in series with positive or negative run battery/cap lead . This way you do not interfere with the circuit operation and can accurately measure the current draw by simply putting you amp meter across the one ohm resistor .
So far the charge bcap is 1.257 and the RUN cap is 1.417 V .
i will stop the experiment when i get the charge capacitor to 1.5 volts . this will be over unity . then i will swap the run and charge Bcap and measure what i have then.. This is a very simple way of showing Over the unity (OU) Exist .Also the cap i am charging was charged to 2.6 volts from yesterday Experiment # 1 . I discharged it to 1 volt using a small Nicrome heater element which glowed brightly for 4 and a half minutes before the cap reached 1 volt . I lit a cig with it :) and it was HOT!!!!!!!!! I could have tripled the Nichrome wire coil and got about 15 minutes short before i hit one volt and that my friends is pure AMPS .I may be the First one in history to actually make a heater from a Jt and a BCap . running from an aa battery :) If i had High Speed i would be the first to post a Video of such a device, SOMEONE replicate this Please . below is the Diagram for the AA setup . It also puts an excess voltage out on the secondary and provides Light and Heat .I am going to improve the JT circuit with bigger torroids and more wire soon . All 1 volt system

Gadget

Gadget

I would like to see you add a secondary and move your heater circuit to that secondary ..... it should be even more efficient .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 20, 2009, 02:19:01 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on November 20, 2009, 01:54:46 PM
Gary:

Maybe I missed it in one of your posts and I didn't see it on your drawing but, what battery are you using to power your circuit? If it is an AA battery, or similar, I was thinking that maybe you could substitute a supercap for the power source and, I am only guessing here, maybe it would stay in resonance because the cap would maintain a constant value as opposed to a battery?

In other words, charge the cap from a battery, and then run your circuit from the supercap. I don't know for a fact that the supercap would perform in this manner, but I strongly suspect that it might.

Bill

bill that is i think the best thing i ever herd you say ! and not that all your ideas and contrubutions to this are any less...

but that is spot on !

;D

MK1 bro ...

that is a wonderfull idea! chapter !! ;D

the SSJT lol lol lol

LOVE IT WE HAVE TOPPED 1000 PAGES ... WELL AS CLOSE AS I WANT TO GO .. LOL

999 IS A GOOD PLACE TO CALL INTERMISSION BREAK ;D

world peace! LOVE ALL LIFE

WILLIAM

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on November 20, 2009, 02:26:29 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on November 20, 2009, 01:54:46 PM
Gary:

Maybe I missed it in one of your posts and I didn't see it on your drawing but, what battery are you using to power your circuit? If it is an AA battery, or similar, I was thinking that maybe you could substitute a supercap for the power source and, I am only guessing here, maybe it would stay in resonance because the cap would maintain a constant value as opposed to a battery?

In other words, charge the cap from a battery, and then run your circuit from the supercap. I don't know for a fact that the supercap would perform in this manner, but I strongly suspect that it might.

Bill

Bill

I did the drawing to show the concept .
MOST of what I have done with it was with 1 AA battery .
I now use 12 V for my circuits ........same exact setup except for an extra resistor on the base

You may be right about using the supercaps .......I am not sure that it would work ....... but there is clearly something happening that is not " normal " when charging a supercap with a JT.

I am on my way to Gadgets website to see if he still has some ultracaps

I can't really afford them right now ..........but I can't let you guys have all the fun

:)

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 20, 2009, 02:39:11 PM

@all
Just got back from town and want to give an update to Experiment 2 . the charge cap is 1.498 !!! and the run Bcap is 1.178 test complete . So conclusion on the first half of this experiment is YES there is an Over the unity of the run ultracap . Big time . now i am going to switch them and see if the run cap will go to 1.400 again to match what i started with or higher .
I am also making a replication exactly like this original jt and try it with two small "supercaps" 4.7 farads @2.5 volts and see if i get the same effect . somehow i dont think so . we will see
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on November 20, 2009, 02:44:46 PM

Sound like great progress gadget. I will keep my fingers crossed on it working for the lower capacity supercaps. I have some 10F 2.7v maxcaps so if it works I will relpicate.

Again, great work.

P.S. Do you have any pics???????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on November 20, 2009, 02:47:33 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on November 20, 2009, 01:54:46 PM
Gary:

Maybe I missed it in one of your posts and I didn't see it on your drawing but, what battery are you using to power your circuit? If it is an AA battery, or similar, I was thinking that maybe you could substitute a supercap for the power source and, I am only guessing here, maybe it would stay in resonance because the cap would maintain a constant value as opposed to a battery?

In other words, charge the cap from a battery, and then run your circuit from the supercap. I don't know for a fact that the supercap would perform in this manner, but I strongly suspect that it might.

Bill

Back 1 page!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 20, 2009, 02:51:27 PM

ok this is a quick replication and Experiment 3 with a duplicate Jt exactly like the other one . using 4.7farad cap charged to 2.5 volts for the run and a dead 4.7 farad with 0.100 of a volt for the charge . This might not be a fair experiment because i had 1 volt in the Ultracap but it will give an idea how a super cap is compared to ultra cap . and its a quick experiment . it too a few seconds to charge one up with a 9 volt battery :)
I am seeing the super cap charge up rather quickly as expected . Also i adjusted the current draw of the run to 9 Ma to give these little Scaps a chance /

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 20, 2009, 03:12:55 PM

Quote from: stprue on November 20, 2009, 02:44:46 PM
Sound like great progress gadget. I will keep my fingers crossed on it working for the lower capacity supercaps. I have some 10F 2.7v maxcaps so if it works I will relpicate.

Again, great work.

P.S. Do you have any pics???????

Well i have a mess and a slow connection but i will take the time to upload . here is a picture of my setup among1000's of parts and stuff. this is a picture of the volts off the run cap charged yesterday .it is charging the other 650 cap on the left . the leds are on the bottom right between the red meter lead.i forgot to shine them up but they are bright. theres the toroid and the tiny transistor and pot . i had to drop the resolution . it looks grainy
the Scap setup is dying out but still lighting an led so i'll wait until it stops lighting to give the results of Experiment 3

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 20, 2009, 03:19:21 PM

IST:

Thank you. I really believe that it will work using a supercap as the power source. Unlike a battery, it should keep the output steady at a constant volt reading as it discharges. As well all know, batteries go down 1.5 volts...1.4 volts...etc.

This should mean, tune for resonance once and then let it run.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 20, 2009, 03:27:38 PM

Well Experiment 3 is finished . the run cap stopped at 0.521 volts thus the silicon 2n2222a limits . the charge cap reached 1.015 volts . So conclusion is a "supercap " is not the same as an Ultracap and wont work for this experiment with the standard Jt . It might work if i wind another toroid with MORE windings so to increase the time it ran . i don't know . more test on the tiny S caps are needed but it appears in this setup NO they do not reach Over the Unity of the run cap nor does it reach Unity either .Most of you have Supercaps and you can verify my findings with these .

@ Pirate Congrats on your Thread hitting 1000 PAGES !!! It will now take months to read this entire Thread ;D I am all for another thread SSJT . This is getting Big time now that i am producing HEAT and Light from a single cell . heck now that you know we can run Nichrome Elements i bet you anything you can so the same from your power from the Earth Battery . 4 sure . Iwas Just repeating this experiment for ist and of coarse By accident discovered HEAT !! FIRE and LIGHT at the same time .. ) More later stay Tuned Gang! Someone replicate this to Double Confirm Please .

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 20, 2009, 03:52:19 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on November 20, 2009, 10:38:53 AM

... I discharged it to 1 volt using a small Nicrome heater element which glowed brightly for 4 and a half minutes before the cap reached 1 volt . I lit a cig with it :) and it was HOT!!!!!!!!! I could have tripled the Nichrome wire coil and got about 15 minutes short before i hit one volt and that my friends is pure AMPS .I may be the First one in history to actually make a heater from a Jt and a BCap . running from an aa battery :
...
SOMEONE replicate this Please . below is the Diagram for the AA setup . It also puts an excess voltage out on the secondary and provides Light and Heat .I am going to improve the JT circuit with bigger torroids and more wire soon . All 1 volt system

Gadget

Gadget, this is brilliant!

I want to replicate this, of course.
Thank you for the description and the drawing.

Now, the question is what is nichrome wire? and mostly, WHERE do I find it?
Is it from an old heater from the thrift store?

Bravo and
thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on November 20, 2009, 03:55:56 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on November 20, 2009, 03:27:38 PM
Well Experiment 3 is finished . the run cap stopped at 0.521 volts thus the silicon 2n2222a limits . the charge cap reached 1.015 volts . So conclusion is a "supercap " is not the same as an Ultracap and wont work for this experiment with the standard Jt . It might work if i wind another toroid with MORE windings so to increase the time it ran . i don't know . more test on the tiny S caps are needed but it appears in this setup NO they do not reach Over the Unity of the run cap nor does it reach Unity either .

@ Pirate Congrats on your Thread hitting 1000 PAGES !!! It will now take months to read this entire Thread ;D I am all for another thread SSJT . This is getting Big time now that i am producing HEAT and Light from a single cell . heck now that you know we can run Nichrome Elements i bet you anything you can so the same from your power from the Earth Battery . 4 sure . Iwas Just repeating this experiment for ist and of coarse By accident discovered HEAT !! FIRE and LIGHT at the same time .. ) More later stay Tuned Gang! Someone replicate this to Double Confirm Please .

Gadget

Thanks for the info's and the time it took to upload the pic :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on November 20, 2009, 04:02:55 PM

Quote from: jeanna on November 20, 2009, 03:52:19 PM
Gadget, this is brilliant!

Now, the question is what is nichrome wire? and mostly, WHERE do I find it?
Is it from an old heater from the thrift store?

Jeanna

That would do it .

An old toaster would work too .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 20, 2009, 04:07:56 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on November 20, 2009, 02:15:48 PM
Gadget

I would like to see you add a secondary and move your heater circuit to that secondary ..... it should be even more efficient .

gary

I will after i complete the test on a STANDARD joule thief with a 22 turn secondary i will improve this . This is a test Ist asked meto do and post using a NORMAL jt . I just added the 22 turn secondary to see it in operation and running 2 .5 watt leds.they did not increase the current draw and actually increased the c e voltage . I have a much better set up i used months ago but i didn't go into detail like this . a better Jt and transistor will charge this Bcap up in 8 hours exactly like the CIS solar panel . 8 hours of sunlight will charge the 650f cap up so close to full 2.5. 2.6 v . Well i see you got a few . i have 35 left and thats it for a while on the 650f until mid next year .Unless an one wants to buy 2 pallets of them . 200,000 pieces . I cannot at this time .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on November 20, 2009, 04:08:23 PM

I thought that this type of material was an amp eater working solely on high resistence to creat heat! If that is the case then this would be the most efficient toaster I have ever seen! People am I wrong on this?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 20, 2009, 04:16:20 PM

Quote from: jeanna on November 20, 2009, 03:52:19 PM
Gadget, this is brilliant!

I want to replicate this, of course.
Thank you for the description and the drawing.

Now, the question is what is nichrome wire? and mostly, WHERE do I find it?
Is it from an old heater from the thrift store?

Bravo and
thank you,

jeanna

Yep an old heater that the motor burned up in and burnt out . I save everything . :) you can also buy it here real cheap . http://jacobs-online.biz/nichrome_wire.htm
i just bought 100 feet of #36 for 6 dollars including shipping also ! The wire off the old heater might be around 24 or something bigger .
An i had another thought about Heat . Using a Peltier Module or a group o fthem we could have heat and cold . I have some somewhere around here . Its another experiment for another day .

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 20, 2009, 04:19:15 PM

Jeanna:

You can get nichrome wire at electrical supply places on the net. Also, they use this wire in the igniters for Estes model rockets available at hobby supply places. Just make sure to scrape off the phosporous like coating that flares up to start the engine first, or it will ignite and burn the wire in half. I think I have a roll of that wire around here somewhere, left over from my ceramic machining days.

@ Gadget:

Thank you. Wow, 1,000 pages, we actually made it. I believe this is an OU.com record, or at least it should be. Nice work on the heater discovery. Now Jeanna can make her toaster...and I'll bet she does. This is really fantastic.

@ All:

We have hit 1,000 pages and are nearing 10,000 posts!!!!

This has been a phenomenal journey to see where we all started, and where we are now. For me, personally, I have learned so much about electronics in general and joule thief circuits and supercaps specifically, than I could have ever learned in this short a time period anywhere else. I want to thank each and every person who has ever posted here and, of course, all of the regular group that has contributed and shared so many wonderful experiments, devices and ideas. Thank you all!
Also, thanks to Stefan for putting this great site up and for all of his hard work in keeping it going. Thank you Stefan.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on November 20, 2009, 04:25:36 PM

@pirate

Do you want to make us a new home , New Tread ...

Lets call it something like the second stage jt ( SSJT for short ).

I would do it my self , but you did such a good job so far , and are endeavors fruitful ...

Congrats everyone !

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 20, 2009, 04:32:12 PM

@ mark:

Thank you very much. I would be happy to if that is what everyone wants. I am not sure I understand the reason for it though unless it is because any newcomers will have a heat attack when they see they need to read 1,000 pages to get going. Is this why?

Otherwise, I see no problem in discussing the SSJT experiments here. It is up to all you guys, whatever the group wants to do is fine with me, and, if the group wants me to start it, I can do that, or someone else can. Except for a few photo sizing corrections and removal of a post or two by the poster's request, I have not had to do any real moderating here at all, but I am glad Stefan allows me to be able to do that on some of the topics I have started.

What does everyone think?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 20, 2009, 04:32:38 PM

10,000th post!!!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on November 20, 2009, 04:32:50 PM

Good idea Mk1, how about...

JT2000

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on November 20, 2009, 04:42:41 PM

@pirate

I guess you didn't read my previous post on it , i gave more reasons for it ...

Ist and Gadget seem to like the idea.

Look at the post from today , we posted at about the same time , and the page changed .

This would conclude the first chapter , it would also be easier for new comers .

And we could take i little time to re aim and built on the basic idea .

Make it a jt world , lol

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 20, 2009, 04:52:47 PM

Shoot !!!! Sometime today the kitten jumped on the Experiment 2 part two and disconnected the charge bcap SOOOOO. i'll see if it will go O U from the run @1.389 and the charge is @ 1176 :( This will be a good test as a few milli volts are wasted along with the time . AHHH its 4:45 start again from here . If it goes to 2.4 to 2.6 i will be very happy ! I think it might !

gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on November 20, 2009, 05:24:42 PM

HI Gadgetmall very interesting about the heater. Even a water heater would work with your circuit you're mentioning? It would be a very good invention man
About the cap can one use a smaller one or a DC one?
Thanks man keep on with the good work.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 20, 2009, 05:34:30 PM

well gadget ...

what can i say my good friend you earned all you have discovered ..

a job well done !

this does infact conclude stage1 !

william

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on November 20, 2009, 05:38:18 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on November 20, 2009, 04:42:41 PM
@pirate

I guess you didn't read my previous post on it , i gave more reasons for it ...

Ist and Gadget seem to like the idea.

Look at the post from today , we posted at about the same time , and the page changed .

This would conclude the first chapter , it would also be easier for new comers .

And we could take i little time to re aim and built on the basic idea .

Make it a jt world , lol

Mark

I see no reason to start a new thread.
I do not think anything has changed just because we hit a number.

This thread was to long to be practical for me to read all the posts when I first started . ...that was over 600 pages ago . I do not see that anything has changed

If the idea is to make it easier for newcomers ...... starting a new thread only splits the areas that they have to search for information in .

I would suggest a new locked thread ..... a thread that only " old timers " can write in .
I would suggest that the people that have been here quite while try to summerise what they have learned here ........and what they have achieved .
It could be called a JT primer ........or something like that .
It would be great to keep it under a dozen pages so everyone would have the time to read it .

We would need at least one good explanation of how to make a basic JT ....... then we could go into what has been done sense then . Things such as Jeana's secondarys ...... and Bills earth battery power

I would like to state again I am not suggesting a new thread for discussions .
I am suggesting a thread for a condensed version of what we have learned .
If discussions were allowed on this thread it would turn into a normal thread and information would become hidden in the mass of posts .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 20, 2009, 05:40:24 PM

Quote from: guruji on November 20, 2009, 05:24:42 PM
HI Gadgetmall very interesting about the heater. Even a water heater would work with your circuit you're mentioning? It would be a very good invention man
About the cap can one use a smaller one or a DC one?
Thanks man keep on with the good work.

Hi guruji
I would say no you cannot use a normal capacitor or anything lower . if your following My experiments they Use a battery capacitor from Maxwell.com called an ultracapacitor . this is the lowest they make in that series . the highest i believe is 3000farads . I have a 1500 farads that will do more than twice the work of the 650farad . So far this is the Strongest capacitor i have ever owned . It is amazing the power it stores . Its so scarry even at 2 volts the current it so high it will burn you if your hands are low resistance or moist (sweaty) . I have already done an experiment with the smaller supercapacitors and they do NOT work in this system . there just too weak for charging .
gadget

***update Experiment 2 part two : charge bcap just hit 1.200 and the run bcap is 1.327 as of 5:46 . Its looking good for over the run . I hope .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on November 20, 2009, 05:55:48 PM

Quote from: guruji on November 20, 2009, 05:24:42 PM
HI Gadgetmall very interesting about the heater. Even a water heater would work with your circuit you're mentioning? It would be a very good invention man
About the cap can one use a smaller one or a DC one?
Thanks man keep on with the good work.

guruji

I was wondering the same thing about smaller caps ..... I wonder if another kind of cap could work

As I understand it .......with what Gadget has right now ........ a water heater ellement could be used as the load ..........but the cap will take about 8 hours to charge ....then it will discharge in a few minutes . ....... the water hearter element is also to large to get as hot as a short piece of nicrome wire .
( I am sure Gadget will improve on this 8 hour time )

I was thinking that a small cap dumped a few times a second might be more powerful than a large cap dumped a few times a day .

I am also remembering I read somewhere that a cap made in cylinder form ......as in made from tubes spaced within one another has some OU properties .

I also read that the large cans on the Testakica are caps with coils inside of them .

HHHhhhhhmmmm

Would a large JT coil inside a cylindrical cap would inductively couple with the cap ?

Any ideas on what to use for a dielectric ?
I tried making a large cap when I was posting on the Stubbfield earth battery thread . I could not get it to hold a charge for even a minute .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 20, 2009, 06:11:55 PM

this is where stage 2 fits gary!

stage 1 is this entire thred in every winding config imaginable and many not showen ...

what you are wanting to do is stage 2 THE GOLD RING

this operates from stage 1 stage 1 provides amps and many to do stage 2

say you designed a coil to slam 15 wats 3 times / sec i bet you got some dam big output there ...

see how it works ..

ist!

you see stage 2 is the same a little bit better .. i have a special bridge rectifier for this porpus .. as a db107 WILL NOT CUT IT ! ;D lol

i have a high amp high voltage high freq .. 240 000 watt rectifier ...

i will never build this compleat unit public .. sorry ! just because i can do things ... does not always mean i should do them .. i respect life i will not put in the hands of children dangrous toys ..

stage 2 can KILL YOU OK !

for this verry reason i progress VERY SLOWLY... ;)

be carefull ! its a whole new world ... thease things have a bad bite !

you have been warned!

w

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 20, 2009, 06:13:36 PM

Jeanna:

I just ordered four 3 3/8" dia. ferrite toroids from all electronics. I am going to try to replicate Lidmotor's Jeanna Light. (Using your big toroid winding idea) I was thinking about stacking 2 of them together and winding just as if it was one thick one. What do you think? have you seen Lidmotor's second video of the light where he put it into a very nice box? He is getting 10 watts of light with only .3 watts of power input. This is a very beautiful and special project that I would recommend to anyone. I may need some help on the winding. I also ordered some 5 watt wire wound pots as well.

Here is the link to Lidmotor's video in case anyone missed it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11nzbi59T7w&feature=subtivity (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11nzbi59T7w&feature=subtivity)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 20, 2009, 06:15:50 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on November 20, 2009, 05:55:48 PM
guruji

I was wondering the same thing about smaller caps ..... I wonder if another kind of cap could work

As I understand it .......with what Gadget has right now ........ a water heater ellement could be used as the load ..........but the cap will take about 8 hours to charge ....then it will discharge in a few minutes . ....... the water hearter element is also to large to get as hot as a short piece of nicrome wire .
( I am sure Gadget will improve on this 8 hour time )

I was thinking that a small cap dumped a few times a second might be more powerful than a large cap dumped a few times a day .

gary

Hi gary . nichrome wire is the way to go here . then you can control the resistance and amount of heat Verse time . I used a small piece of coil and it lit up like a light bulb . i could feel the heat on my face . IF i put say 5 or 6 feet of wire coil then the heat will be slower and there for could last for hours . Also If one Jt charges in 8 hours Stands to reason that 8 Jts will charge it in one hour . and 16 Jts will charge it in a few minutes . IST already has the makings in mind for something similar and he will see results . I believe the big 6 inch toroid will charge this Bcap up quickly once we find the proper winding . probably using a 2n3055 or bigger transistor .
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 20, 2009, 06:33:44 PM

or mosfets ... they work awesome if you build it right ...

and just add more for how much you want it to push ..

10 20 30 40 50 amp i dont care ... bang all at 1 time imagine 50amps 2.7v as an input where your 11 ma is lol

just once please visualize !

i have been seeing this crap in my mind for a lonnnnggggg time ..

:)

ist !

this is why i rarely finish anything and im already on to the next thing ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 20, 2009, 06:37:36 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on November 20, 2009, 06:13:36 PM
Jeanna:

I just ordered four 3 3/8" dia. ferrite toroids from all electronics. I am going to try to replicate Lidmotor's Jeanna Light. (Using your big toroid winding idea) I was thinking about stacking 2 of them together and winding just as if it was one thick one. What do you think? have you seen Lidmotor's second video of the light where he put it into a very nice box? He is getting 10 watts of light with only .3 watts of power input. This is a very beautiful and special project that I would recommend to anyone. I may need some help on the winding. I also ordered some 5 watt wire wound pots as well.

Here is the link to Lidmotor's video in case anyone missed it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11nzbi59T7w&feature=subtivity (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11nzbi59T7w&feature=subtivity)

Bill

This Is awesome Jeanna . Where did i miss this Bill ? ?jeanna? i have some of those rings . Cool

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on November 20, 2009, 06:42:17 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on November 20, 2009, 06:15:50 PM
Hi gary . nichrome wire is the way to go here . then you can control the resistance and amount of heat Verse time . I used a small piece of coil and it lit up like a light bulb . i could feel the heat on my face . IF i put say 5 or 6 feet of wire coil then the heat will be slower and there for could last for hours . Also If one Jt charges in 8 hours Stands to reason that 8 Jts will charge it in one hour . and 16 Jts will charge it in a few minutes . IST already has the makings in mind for something similar and he will see results . I believe the big 6 inch toroid will charge this Bcap up quickly once we find the proper winding . probably using a 2n3055 or bigger transistor .
Gadget

Gadget

I would agree that only ultracaps have shown promise with this .......so far .
I see no reason that some other can't work .

I do understand the idea of more units to provide more power .......but each unit costs money .

I do not like bottlenecks in the OU path ........ toroids are a bottleneck ......... the price tag on ultracaps is a bottleneck
I would say ......somehow the ultracaps are loosing less through leakage or something like that .
I will see what I can do with the Ultracaps .........but I will also be looking for other options ....options more possible for the person without a gold plated checkbook.

As far as using the 2n3055 ........ I used them for a while ........they burn out to easy.
Try the TIP3055 .............similar performance , smaller package and they seem alot more durable to me.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 20, 2009, 06:46:57 PM

The TIP 3055 is what Lidmotor used in his Jeanna Light circuit. I am going to use the old 2n3055 for my replications if only because I still have about 25 of them left from a buy I made last year.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 20, 2009, 06:58:37 PM

Wow lotsa posts to answer.

1- I think MK1 has a good idea here. It is a good idea to make some prepared explanations of what we have learned. It is better now than before, too because we all seem to arrived at a place of greater understanding.

2-@Bill, In fact it should be much stronger, (remembering prof lewin's long plastic bag?) and I have been thinking about it too.
But, let me suggest a simple replication first.
That way I or lidmotor can help you.

3-@Gadget, It was around jume 11. I was not the first to light a fluoro tube with a hand wound toroid, but I wanted to keep it really simple (and I did) and I timed it (5 1/4hrs) to show what a great build it could be.
I put it into a long breadbasket, but it didn't fit and Lidmotor's lamp is just so elegant and beautiful. I feel so proud that I inspired him.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 20, 2009, 07:01:05 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on November 20, 2009, 06:42:17 PM
Gadget

I would agree that only ultracaps have shown promise with this .......so far .
I see no reason that some other can't work .

I do understand the idea of more units to provide more power .......but each unit costs money .

I do not like bottlenecks in the OU path ........ toroids are a bottleneck ......... the price tag on ultracaps is a bottleneck
I would say ......somehow the ultracaps are loosing less through leakage or something like that .
I will see what I can do with the Ultracaps .........but I will also be looking for other options ....options more possible for the person without a gold plated checkbook.

As far as using the 2n3055 ........ I used them for a while ........they burn out to easy.
Try the TIP3055 .............similar performance , smaller package and they seem alot more durable to me.

gary

:) I am by no means rich . Neither is IST . We save junk . and for me i try to give materials that i have researched for less money . And like i said in a posta few pages back you can get all the parts you want for free . I got all those parts in the photo for free . the torroids are 5 for a dollar . wire free . transistors free resistors free and pots are free and so are the torroids . :)
Yes by all means research the little caps . I ran Experiment 3 again and same results with the 4.7 farad supercaps . In my standard Jt they don't work at all for showing anysign of OU but i do have a little cube light that runs off one for over 24 hours and charged by the sun for a few minutes or by a lamp for a few minutes and that supercap maxes out . I think this can be made better with lots more turns on the primary . As far as the secondary these is no current to charge the Bcap or from previous test . I am sure we can figure thisout .. I tried already with the setup before i started experiment 1 . it don't budge an ultracap with diodes in series . without them the coil smokes . So for now i will work on the the worlds most efficient aa battery heater /light . I hope others see their way to replicate and make it stronger .
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 20, 2009, 07:04:09 PM

my finished unit i will compleat public will produce many amp at 12vdc to drive a intergrated invertor of 1.2kw ..

it will be portable and second to none .. i told you all this is not cheep!

but when you look at durability .. agin bang for the buck ... unmatched!

when looking at the life of the caps and what they are capable of ..

peace!

w

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 20, 2009, 07:25:55 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on November 20, 2009, 07:04:09 PM
my finished unit i will compleat public will produce many amp at 12vdc to drive a intergrated invertor of 1.2kw ..

it will be portable and second to none .. i told you all this is not cheep!

but when you look at durability .. agin bang for the buck ... unmatched!

when looking at the life of the caps and what they are capable of ..

peace!

w

Yes you have to look at it that way . It cost MONEY to invent . if you don't get the parts then you don't build it and waste your money on paying utility bills and energy wasting appliances anyway so better to pay a little now than a lot later . and your going to pay anyways if you live in a house :) or trailer or rv or whatever . why pay 300 dollars a month for electricity when My system will run from practly nothing . I don't like 12 volts cause its not free . 1 to 2 volts at a few milliamsps is free from the dirt :) but if you keep your 12 volts charged to output energy then its worth it in my opinion ..

WEll IST have you seen enuff to please the Mouthy peoples . ?
i aint done yet ...waiting for the third swap after isee this one go ou the second time around . its looking real good . Thanks for asking me to do this experiment ., Just in time for winter . ! SSJT !!

Gadget

@jeanna . VEry nice . I dont know how i missed . I want one . Its better than My fugi light . bigger but better. Do you know what page its on ? ............Just kidding . these is too many pages to keep track of now . Good God :o
I am all for helping . I am going to tear down this standard jt and wind one that will cook . I bet you already know the proper winding for such a device as the goldmine toroid 5/$1 . Ist gave me a bunch to work on so we need to Graduate to the next level . AMPS from BIG BATTERY CAPS .

I hope you guys get the last ones . They got sold quicker than i wanted them too .someone bought over 10,000 of them and that leaves me with only 35 to sell at the discounted price . I make 2 bucks on one / paypal gets theirs and i ship priority if available in your country .
who ever it was must either be selling them or using them for a massive project . I have not seen anyone here say anything about those so i guess they are not here on this forum .

I am tired . I will check in tomorrow and give the tally for the charge Bcap .

O BTW i got a Dr Stiffler sec in the mailbox today . it fits in a tiny 1/1/2 inch golf ball cube . I havent even had time to play with it and probably wont this week . for its Thanksgiving Weekend . I am too excited to make fire from an aa battery .

Lots of Success to all

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 20, 2009, 07:42:01 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on November 20, 2009, 07:01:05 PM
...
Yes by all means research the little caps . I ran Experiment 3 again and same results with the 4.7 farad supercaps . In my standard Jt they don't work at all for showing anysign of OU but i do have a little cube light that runs off one for over 24 hours and charged by the sun for a few minutes or by a lamp for a few minutes and that supercap maxes out . I think this can be made better with lots more turns on the primary . As far as the secondary these is no current to charge the Bcap or from previous test . I am sure we can figure thisout .. I tried already with the setup before i started experiment 1 . it don't budge an ultracap with diodes in series . without them the coil smokes . So for now i will work on the the worlds most efficient aa battery heater /light . I hope others see their way to replicate and make it stronger .
Gadget

I am addressing this to gadget but it is for all, of course.

Many months ago, I had a very strong 'download' type thought. (that is the kind that comes in fully packaged and instantly) At that time, I got it that there are never any amps that are needed in the ac circuit.

yes.

none.

OK so why do we think this and why do we always use amps?
I set myself -silently- to discover this.

In the course of many months of experiments, I have realized that the amps are only drawn into play when no other part of the system can be drawn.
In our normal ac from the wall we are forced to use 60hz and 110v or 50hz and 240v
. Therefore the only element that can be drawn is the amps.
For example, I have been watching as lights get brighter but less power is used.

I have also watched as I have added inductors IN SERIES to a pulsed wire that while the voltage may be lighting the lights the frequency will dip.
Then, (I am still experimenting) if I add more series coils the voltage spikes can go up again and the lights can use more of something.
It seems that it will continue as long as the frequency of spikes is high enough that it can be reduced.

Frequency is not a thing, of course, it is a rate of spikes passing over a marker in a second, which is rather like amps because an amp is a rate of joules (electrons??) passing a marker in a second.
In one of our jt circuits that have high frequency, there is a lot of room for manipulation of the volts and frequency of spikes.

OK so now I have shared it as I see it now.
There will surely be more, and now, I want to add a series inductor to a place that added more light to a ........... ;)

That wire site has a table that shows that the 36 gauge wire uses .1.5A to become 2000 degrees F
And it says if it is coiled you can expect it to be about half.

So, a 2.5Ah AA rechargeable should be good for a couple of hours without damaging the battery.

I also think there will be a pulse rate that will heat the wire and turn off just long enough for the wire to just begin to cool and then pulse and heat it up again.

Yeay!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 20, 2009, 07:47:30 PM

i never had to see a thing ... they did ...

i hope you like your wings ...

peace!

william :)

you know in the past i have played with hot water ... and i think it holds heat really well

hot water on demand anyone ... hot water heaters .. powered by an aa ..

lol

i think its almost ALICE in WONDERLAND in this thred ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 20, 2009, 08:14:13 PM

Quote from: jeanna on November 20, 2009, 07:42:01 PM
I am addressing this to gadget but it is for all, of course.

Many months ago, I had a very strong 'download' type thought. (that is the kind that comes in fully packaged and instantly) At that time, I got it that there are never any amps that are needed in the ac circuit.

yes.

none.

OK so why do we think this and why do we always use amps?
I set myself -silently- to discover this.

In the course of many months of experiments, I have realized that the amps are only drawn into play when no other part of the system can be drawn.
In our normal ac from the wall we are forced to use 60hz and 110v or 50hz and 240v
. Therefore the only element that can be drawn is the amps.
For example, I have been watching as lights get brighter but less power is used.

I have also watched as I have added inductors IN SERIES to a pulsed wire that while the voltage may be lighting the lights the frequency will dip.
Then, (I am still experimenting) if I add more series coils the voltage spikes can go up again and the lights can use more of something.
It seems that it will continue as long as the frequency of spikes is high enough that it can be reduced.

Frequency is not a thing, of course, it is a rate of spikes passing over a marker in a second, which is rather like amps because an amp is a rate of joules (electrons??) passing a marker in a second.
In one of our jt circuits that have high frequency, there is a lot of room for manipulation of the volts and frequency of spikes.

OK so now I have shared it as I see it now.
There will surely be more, and now, I want to add a series inductor to a place that added more light to a ........... ;)

That wire site has a table that shows that the 36 gauge wire uses .1.5A to become 2000 degrees F
And it says if it is coiled you can expect it to be about half.

So, a 2.5Ah AA rechargeable should be good for a couple of hours without damaging the battery.

I also think there will be a pulse rate that will heat the wire and turn off just long enough for the wire to just begin to cool and then pulse and heat it up again.

Yeay!

jeanna

Yeay is right i didn't look at the speks for a 100 foot roll of it . If a 1.5 ah 1.5 volt AA battery will heat up to 2000f then the Ultracap at 2.7 volts at 3500 amps can make it Whirl for long time .Cool . Well i measured the current from the CE junction and it was over 6 milliamps with it drawing 11 -13 ma so i assumed this is where the charge was coming from as i could not charge them from the secondary ??? you will defiantly figure this out . We are as close as we have ever been now that something can store AMPS for long term use . A battery won't work in this circuit charging . it charged but eventually it loses its capacity . These don't .
ok Me so tired . Fingers falling numb ..

Gadget

update last for 2nite Experiment 2 part 2 1.178 run 1. 281 CHarge . i think its going to make it by morning to 2.000 . If it does Does this Prove Overy unity . Yes i think so . Comments ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 20, 2009, 09:34:58 PM

OMG

why didnt i think of this b4 .... lol

crazy

i got THE PERFECT SOLUTION ;D

i got to find the little cridder ... darn it! this coil i made years ago ... it gets hot as hell ... lol and the wire remanis COLD... DUH ... I LOVE IT WHEN I HAVE STUPID MOMENTS ....

i will find you a picture of this coil ... lol ;D ;D ;D ;D

me!

it is made from a peice of iron pipe un cut ... the engery can not release .. so the metal gets soooooo hot sooooo fast! 8)

you know some times i amaze myself lol

there is the element .. for the hot water unit ... drop it in the tank .. the engery is not wasted ... it is accelerated to the point of heat !

i cant find the picture .. it will be easyer to unpack it and snap a new one ... i cant even remember where it is posted lotr or gk's heterodyning thred ...

this was a long time ago but i know it will work great and cost pennies to make and it will use verry little power as i recall it was pulsed really slow .... ;) like 1.6hz or 2 max i was useing the lite puter it would max at 2.2hz there bouts and i used a 12vdc 1 amp supply in a few seconds it was hot but yet the wires were cold ... this is b4 i put the wires through the steel core so the compounded magnet engery could release from the steel 90 deg to the copper collector output

now how about useing the wire J is talking about and insulating it from a steel core it gets hot as it is suspoto but it allso will induce a magnetic feild in the uncut ring core ... adding even more heat !

i have used steel wires b4 as pulse and gen coils ... on a toroide .. with out any diffrance vs copper .. not sure why that is ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on November 21, 2009, 12:09:08 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on November 20, 2009, 09:34:58 PM
OMG

why didnt i think of this b4 .... lol

crazy

i got THE PERFECT SOLUTION ;D

i got to find the little cridder ... darn it! this coil i made years ago ... it gets hot as hell ... lol and the wire remanis COLD... DUH ... I LOVE IT WHEN I HAVE STUPID MOMENTS ....

i will find you a picture of this coil ... lol ;D ;D ;D ;D

me!

it is made from a peice of iron pipe un cut ... the engery can not release .. so the metal gets soooooo hot sooooo fast! 8)

you know some times i amaze myself lol

there is the element .. for the hot water unit ... drop it in the tank .. the engery is not wasted ... it is accelerated to the point of heat !

i cant find the picture .. it will be easyer to unpack it and snap a new one ... i cant even remember where it is posted lotr or gk's heterodyning thred ...

this was a long time ago but i know it will work great and cost pennies to make and it will use verry little power as i recall it was pulsed really slow .... ;) like 1.6hz or 2 max i was useing the lite puter it would max at 2.2hz there bouts and i used a 12vdc 1 amp supply in a few seconds it was hot but yet the wires were cold ... this is b4 i put the wires through the steel core so the compounded magnet engery could release from the steel 90 deg to the copper collector output

now how about useing the wire J is talking about and insulating it from a steel core it gets hot as it is suspoto but it allso will induce a magnetic feild in the uncut ring core ... adding even more heat !

i have used steel wires b4 as pulse and gen coils ... on a toroide .. with out any diffrance vs copper .. not sure why that is ...

Great idea IST

Induction furnaces for melting metal work along that same principle
They are basically one big coil .......the metal they are melting acts like a single piece winding

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 21, 2009, 08:21:13 AM

Morning . Experiment 2 part 2 is failing to get to 1.4 volts probably cause the kitten jumped on the experiment and disconnected the charge battery which lost several hours worth of primary Bcap Voltage . Run this morn is .808 and Charge is 1.353 . Its still running but Charge is slowing down . . On the other hand another Jt i made exactly like the other two is still going strong on the EverReady rechargeable 2500mah battery . its volts is still 1.277 . these are good batterys . its powering 1 watt of leds also . I could charge many 650farad caps up with that battery and standard Jt . it just take time . Well i dont see Experiment 2 part 2 the swap on the caps reching full charge so i decided to swap them a third time and see if i can bring the .808 volt cap up to at least 1.3 volts . Thus experiment 2 part 3 .

Update the .808 is now .904 and the run cap is 1.297 at 10:20 am . It appears the Joule thief needs at least 1 volt to charge .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 21, 2009, 10:57:18 AM

then it is a good thing the 2n2222a's dont drain the run caps fully ... ;D ;)

so you only need to top up half the cap ... from the out put useing a 12vdc step down adaptor cord ...

gadget ... you still run ip's ? as this dink wont buzz off ... he has almost caused me to release teleportation ... this darn world is barly ready for the darn jt...

yikes ..

i think he needs a time out ... ;)

w

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 21, 2009, 12:13:05 PM

Experiment 2 part3 / third swap of ultracapacitors . the kittenfumbled run Bcap is 1.214 and the charge Bcap is .999 now it 1.000.
here is the latest Diagram of the joule thief aa battery heater showing you the hook up for the multimeter to see the current draw of your circiut .If you use exact parts this circuit is adjustable from 8 ma to 22 ma input. The 1 watt worth of leds do not draw any current that i see . they were for on indicator for the oscillating 2n2222a . As a sid effect they produce a good amount of light and get brighter as the Charge Bcap gets higher in Voltage .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on November 21, 2009, 12:36:06 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on November 21, 2009, 11:43:19 AM
Hi Paul .Its very possible he is seeing gain . I have demonstrated over the unity of a primary source in the Jule thief thread . from an aa battery 2500mah i have charger an ultracapacitor to full capacity with only a few microvolts of loss from the battery 1.4 volt battery . I have stored 3500 AMPS that burn wire and produce HEAT while producing light at the same time . this Amperage is not cold electricity . The worlds first aa battery nichrome heater / light schematic is on page 997 thru 1002 and there is an ongoing experiment . this is easily replicated and you can build one it about 5 minutes

Gadget,

That's great. So your 2500mAH battery fully charged the "ultracapacitor" without much loss from the 2500mAH battery? Is this the circuit you used for that experiment,

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6123.0;attach=39124;image

Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 21, 2009, 12:45:47 PM

Quote from: PaulLowrance on November 21, 2009, 12:36:06 PM
Gadget,

That's great. So your 2500mAH battery fully charged the "ultracapacitor" without much loss from the 2500mAH battery? Is this the circuit you used for that experiment,

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6123.0;attach=39124;image

Paul

Hi Paul . use the above circuit posted before your post . This is correct i only lost 5 1000's of volt from the start of Experiment 1 for IST . This is OU in a simple demonstration / So far i have tested "supercaps and batteries and they don't exhibit the effect like this Bcab Does . I have been asking for replications done to triple verify my finding s. you suppose i could enter in the Ou contest Now ? there cheap enough to build . well under 100 dollars .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on November 21, 2009, 12:47:09 PM

Hi,

Can someone recommend the best OU device that will charge a battery? I like the slayer007 claim, but so far can't get enough details from him to build it. Slayer007 took two dead 9V batteries and charged a 12V 80AH that was ~ 16% charged and charged it to ~ 62%, which means the device added 132000 joules of energy. Even if both of his 9V 250mAH batteries were fully charged, which they were not, that's only 2 * 0.250 AH * 3600 = 1800 joules.

That's amazing!! That's what I'm looking for to replicate. Can someone recommend something, preferably from someone that is upfront and non-evasive who actually wants their claim replicated and verified? Gadgets claim seems great as well. Maybe that's the best one to replicate.

Thanks,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 21, 2009, 12:54:13 PM

Paul:

I would recommend either of them as they are both excellent experimenters and have done some great work. Gadget's is the most recent as he has just had a break through in the past day or so, and it does not sound complicated to replicate. His complete drawing has been supplied already a page back I believe.

Everyone needs to get some of these large ultracaps. Mine is the 650 Farad size and I have been able to do amazing things with it. Gadget says he will soon be getting bigger ones around 1,400 Farad! Man, you could arc weld with that much power!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on November 21, 2009, 12:55:01 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on November 21, 2009, 12:45:47 PM
Hi Paul . use the above circuit posted before your post . This is correct i only lost 5 1000's of volt from the start of Experiment 1 for IST . This is OU in a simple demonstration / So far i have tested "supercaps and batteries and they don't exhibit the effect like this Bcab Does . I have been asking for replications done to triple verify my finding s. you suppose i could enter in the Ou contest Now ? there cheap enough to build . well under 100 dollars.

Hi Gadget,

Have you tried charging a car battery? Slayer007 claims it worked on his 80AH battery. It would be better to use a car battery because most people have one, in their car, including myself. I don't have one of those ultracaps, and can't spend $100 on one anytime soon.

Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 21, 2009, 12:55:42 PM

gadget!

apply for the prize !

infact ... i challange any one that is here to do better!

if all fail prize is for gadget!

my opinion 8)

william

i will be building when i get more money to pay for the shipping ... i expct to finally be able to pay for the rest today .. thank you

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on November 21, 2009, 12:57:02 PM

Thanks Bill,

I might have $30 to spend on an ultracap, but not $100. I'm almost homeless as it is, and my car has a blown head gasket, LOL. Do you think car batteries like 80AH will work as well instead of the ultracaps?

Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 21, 2009, 01:05:00 PM

Quote from: PaulLowrance on November 21, 2009, 12:57:02 PM
Thanks Bill,

I might have $30 to spend on an ultracap, but not $100. I'm almost homeless as it is, and my car has a blown head gasket, LOL. Do you think car batteries like 80AH will work as well instead of the ultracaps?

Paul

indeed they may ... if you know what your doing.... i reccomend a super on the input for reasons explained ... and tune it !

8)

w814

it is clear in this method ... battery material resonance is verry important .... 8) and no drifting ...

a pain in the but or it could be lol :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on November 21, 2009, 01:21:51 PM

So far only slayer007 has succeeded with a car battery?

digikey.com has some supercaps, 150F, 2.5V, for $18, part number JJC0E157MELC made by Nichicon. The cheapest large supercap is a 700F, 2.5V, DLCAP series, ESR is 5.5mOhm, price is $56, part number DDLA2R5LGN701KAA5S made by United Chemi-Con.

Gadget, do you have a cap part number for one that's shown OU?

Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 21, 2009, 01:54:21 PM

Quote from: PaulLowrance on November 21, 2009, 01:21:51 PM
So far only slayer007 has succeeded with a car battery?

digikey.com has some supercaps, 150F, 2.5V, for $18, part number JJC0E157MELC made by Nichicon. The cheapest large supercap is a 700F, 2.5V, DLCAP series, ESR is 5.5mOhm, price is $56, part number DDLA2R5LGN701KAA5S made by United Chemi-Con.

Gadget, do you have a cap part number for one that's shown OU?

Paul

They are here www.sunpowerwindpower.com at less than half price from the manufacture .
i asked Stephan if this qualifies me . Its so easy to replicate also and less than the cost of an energy hog heater .
No i cannot charge 12 volts on this . I can on a bedini and it is the most efficient device to do 12 volts to date . . later on when the new second stage Jt thread starts we will design one with consolatory information . For now only ultracaps exhibit AMP storage high enough to burn .
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on November 21, 2009, 02:05:37 PM

Okay those are Maxwell Boostcap, 2.7V, 650F.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 21, 2009, 02:08:35 PM

@ All:

By request, I have started the Second Stage Joule Thief Circuits topic located here:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8334.new#new (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8334.new#new)

It is not 1,000 pages....yet.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 21, 2009, 02:36:25 PM

Quote from: PaulLowrance on November 21, 2009, 02:05:37 PM
Okay those are Maxwell Boostcap, 2.7V, 650F.

Yes Boostcaps have a liquid electrolyte in them verse super caps do not or not the same electrolyte. some how they have special properties that absorb spikes of electrons and store them as Amps and volts . I believe supercaps of a higher value will work with modification from the original Jt . here is the cheapest dealer of maxcaps dealers http://www.tecategroup.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=18_20_39&products_id=162&zenid=68cc04483e2f933e5afcec3115c3ac15
78 dollars plus shipping UPS in the us plus haZmat fees about 110 to deliver in US ..
i have them for 55+ship no hazmat fee but i only have a few left less than 27 650f

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on November 21, 2009, 03:05:37 PM

Hi Gadgetmall I had build this but with some modifications in number of windings to charge batteries.
Instead of that diode I used four diodes as BR. The voltage continued to rise on the DC side and then I switched it off cause the cap I'm using is 2200uf 16v and it was getting higher in voltage and a skriching sound was heard.
What if I use a bigger cap could I light more leds and charge more batteries?
Thanks guys.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 21, 2009, 03:06:32 PM

@ paul

a super cap on the input of what your trying to build with batteries will work fine .. you need a core that rings at the battery resonance .. the output ringggs the battery but i have found cirtan batteries to charge darn fast .. when in tune ... the super cap gets flicked from a aa it runs then at a steady freq ... for some time when it cuts out ... it is triggered to be flicked agin ... this entire time your core is rinnnnnggggg the battery ...

is

all in all batterys suck ... caps are much better

ok think about this ... tesla ... and its always back to the bible on this one .... ;) said translating devices this means caps or batteries .... with radient! unrectified in true material resonance .

dont get hurt!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on November 21, 2009, 03:19:43 PM

I just bought a new Maxwell boostcap 650F for $30, brand new, at ebay. The seller has at least 10 more in stock,

http://cgi.ebay.com/Maxwell-650-Farad-Ultracapacitor-Electric-Vehicle-Solar_W0QQitemZ370233804626QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item5633a78752 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Maxwell-650-Farad-Ultracapacitor-Electric-Vehicle-Solar_W0QQitemZ370233804626QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item5633a78752)

And he has 1500F bcaps as well for $50.

Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on November 21, 2009, 03:23:56 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on November 21, 2009, 03:06:32 PM
@ paul
[snip]
all in all batterys suck ... caps are much better

ok think about this ... tesla ... and its always back to the bible on this one .... ;) said translating devices this means caps or batteries .... with radient! unrectified in true material resonance.

William, or do you prefer innovation_station,

What's amazing is how Tesla had FE devices way way back then, and we're still trying to discover how, even with modern technology.

Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on November 21, 2009, 03:36:10 PM

@Paul

FE died in October of 1954 ...

Anything before that is gold , if we can understand it ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on November 21, 2009, 04:35:12 PM

Delete

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on November 21, 2009, 04:41:31 PM

Someone sent me a PM saying the supplier of the bcap I bought sold him a leaky one. The supplier says these bcaps are new, but as with all parts there's no guarantee of never getting a faulty part. I'll test my bcap to see if it falls within datasheet specifications. IMO, this person merely received a bad bcap, which could by chance come from manufacturer, but we'll see.

Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 21, 2009, 05:22:28 PM

So Paul,
In your drawing --- please post it here for clarity later, you show that you are not making the joule thief with a center tapped bifilar primary.
This is the essential element to all joule thieves.

Makezine has a great youtube video on it and I usually recommend 3 watchings before you even begin.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTAqGKt64WM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTAqGKt64WM)

There is also a pdf that you can download for drawings.

After you have made a few then you can make some modifications and begin to tune one.

But first since you have made one already, make sure you have connected the end of one wire to the beginning of the other.
Make sure this pair is connected to the pos rail of the battery and the emitter is connected to the negative rail.

add a 1k resistor or pot and connect that to the base of the transistor and one free toroid and then connect the collector to the other free wire from the toroid.

Now...I am assuming you are using a breadboard type thing... add the led to the Collector and Emitter.

When it lights smile.

Then make another just exactly like the first one, but this time remove the led and make a 10 turn secondary through the toroid.

This should light 1 led safely.
If you make a longer secondary like 30 turns you should be getting enough to light 4 leds.
This is usually more pos on one wire than the other so if the leds don't light one way turn the wires around.
And smile again.

Now you can add 50 turns on the next one and see 50-100 volts.
This starts to vary a lot and this is the time you will want to begin tuning, but I will stop here.

Please do those things and report back with your success or questions.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on November 21, 2009, 05:37:27 PM

Jeanna,

I appreciate the help. I'm still studying your post, and will make the modifications to my drawing immediately after. I can post the image here, but did not want to do that until Gadget can confirm that my circuit is correct. It seemed bad to post circuits that are incorrect.

Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on November 21, 2009, 05:42:21 PM

Jeanna,

As I understand your description, it sounds like you're using two transistors, no? Gadget uses one transistor.

A circuit drawing is so much better!

Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on November 21, 2009, 05:43:31 PM

Ive been getting reasonable results off of two identical axial lead inductors placed parallel (and reversed ) to one another.

..8.5 volts on one and 35 volts on another setup... unfortunately this doesn't produce the spectacle that other joule thief circuits do, but it's worth noting that the configuration is similar to my 2 coil Helmholtz setup. I"ve tried placing a tertiary, but i'm limited by proximity, size factors make the circuit cumbersome to put on a breadboard..

No OU detected, i'm lacking in the ultra-cap department, etc.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 21, 2009, 05:47:22 PM

Quote from: PaulLowrance on November 21, 2009, 05:42:21 PM
Jeanna,

As I understand your description, it sounds like you're using two transistors, no? Gadget uses one transistor.

A circuit drawing is so much better!

Paul

No I never have used more than one.
I can post another plain circuit diagram, but if you have read it wrong you will need the words.

one minute I will either edit or post a new post with a plain diagram.
jeanna

oops the second one shows where you put the led on the basic jt and the part you remove for the jt with secondary.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: broli on November 21, 2009, 06:03:08 PM

With the latest succes I will try a JT bcap replication but 1000 pages is a huge read. So let me get this straight. The JT is a self oscillating kick back transformer, and the secret ingredient seems to be the ultra capacitors which somehow can store excess energy from this radiant which a battery couldn't absorb. So am I correct that experiments shouldn't be limited to the JT circuit only, since this forum is filled with circuits that can create radiant spikes...is my reasoning correct when these circuits will as well benefit from the ultracapacitors now being able to absorb this radiant energy?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on November 21, 2009, 06:08:13 PM

Jeanna,

Nice circuit drawing! That clarifies Gadgets circuit for me. Attached is the circuit drawing with your corrections, and of course with the slight difference that gadget has added. Is this drawing now correct?

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on November 21, 2009, 06:11:49 PM

Hi broli,

Gadget said be careful when buying the bcap at ebay, even though the sells claims they are new. I just bought a 650F bcap (maxwell boostcap) for $30, new, at ebay, part number BCAP650E, Maxwell 650 Farad 2.7V Ultracapacitor. So I'll test it to see if it's fine. Personally I think gadget is thinking of another ebay seller because the guy I bought my from has a flawless ebay rating of no negative comments in the past 12 months.

Mouser.com has this bcaps for $72, but I can't afford that right now.

Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on November 21, 2009, 06:14:38 PM

@Paul

The correction you made , are wrong , i believe ... Only one coil goes to the base .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on November 21, 2009, 06:16:59 PM

Jeanna,

One possible issue is that in gadgets circuit he places the LED across the secondary coil, not the transistor. He places a diode & bcap across the transistor. Could you clarify what to do with the LED in gadgets circuit?

Thanks,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on November 21, 2009, 06:18:09 PM

MK1,

Are you referring to gadgets circuit or Jeanna? I'm trying to replicate gadgets circuit,

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6123.0;attach=39124;image (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6123.0;attach=39124;image)

Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 21, 2009, 06:18:58 PM

Quote from: PaulLowrance on November 21, 2009, 05:37:27 PM
Jeanna,

I appreciate the help. I'm still studying your post, and will make the modifications to my drawing immediately after. I can post the image here, but did not want to do that until Gadget can confirm that my circuit is correct. It seemed bad to post circuits that are incorrect. I can fix some of them as i can exit recent .

Paul

I asked Pirate in Our SSJT thread to Please replace the photo of My diagram . the cleaned up one is there . the cad program would not draw the bottom line any higher but i managed to move it up with the led . Kind of . Its a Standard Jt . with a secondary / with a small mod to the base of the transistor circuit . Its standard for me anyways :)

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on November 21, 2009, 06:21:37 PM

@Paul

The one you just posted .

Jeanna , doesn't make mistakes on something we all know by heart .

There is the basic jt then you put a secondary on it , you use the secondary power by making a bridge or single diode.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: broli on November 21, 2009, 06:27:13 PM

Paul I corrected the circuit but I didn't add the LED because gadget's diagram seems to show this is wound separately around the toroid unless he corrects me.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on November 21, 2009, 06:30:52 PM

Quote from: broli on November 21, 2009, 06:27:13 PM
Paul I corrected the circuit but I didn't add the LED because gadget's diagram seems to show this is wound separately around the toroid unless he corrects me.

Gadgets diagram shows something going on with the LED, maybe a 3rd winding as you suggest, but he has that LED in there somehow.

If he can describe it in detail, or perhaps show a video zoomed in, then I can draw the circuit for newcomers to see.

Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 21, 2009, 06:34:42 PM

Quote from: PaulLowrance on November 21, 2009, 06:16:59 PM
Jeanna,

One possible issue is that in gadgets circuit he places the LED across the secondary coil, not the transistor. He places a diode & bcap across the transistor. Could you clarify what to do with the LED in gadgets circuit?

Thanks,
Paul

Gadget says to drop it.
It is just an extra to the circuit.

I tried to explain how to make
1- a plain jtc
2- a plain jtc with a secondary.
This is so you have a handle on this circuit. It will take an hour or less to make the 2 of them.

Once that is done you can see what gadget did.

He added the led on the secondary as a bonus a light that draws less than nothing from the main jtc.
(I mean less than nothing, and once you have made one like this you will be in on some of the jt's secrets too)

@broli
Thanks, I have a very ugly version of what you just did beautifully.

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: poynt99 on November 21, 2009, 06:37:35 PM

Paul,

The LED is simply powered by a third winding on the toroid. The drawing is not shown in a conventional way so it looks confusing, but that is all it is. Three windings on a toroid, nothing more. It's quite simple.

.99

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on November 21, 2009, 06:38:02 PM

Okay, thanks. I'll wait for gadget to confirm the circuit and see if the "1 watt" LED is optional. I'm not here to chop apart his circuit or judge it, or make any assumptions, but just draw it the correct way, and then build it.

Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 21, 2009, 06:43:08 PM

@poynt
Yes, but 2 of those windings are joined and they are actually one centertapped winding.
The reason for much confusion is that this centertapped part which is essential is often missed.

@paul
I got this pic from pirate's thread which was supposed to help beginners with schematics they could follow.
jesus made this compiled version of a collaborative circuit we all made in late winter.

I sure hope this helps.
jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 21, 2009, 06:43:14 PM

Quote from: PaulLowrance on November 21, 2009, 06:30:52 PM
Gadgets diagram shows something going on with the LED, maybe a 3rd winding as you suggest, but he has that LED in there somehow.

If he can describe it in detail, or perhaps show a video zoomed in, then I can draw the circuit for newcomers to see.

Paul

8) :-\ Paul there is nothing wrong with My explanation or the circuit i posted . If you read back when i started Experiment 1 for Ist i explain every thing so a new be can understand it . there is no need to re post it again . If Only you would read you can see its a standard jt . a standard JT is made by wrapping two wires together at the same time ,11 turns . then the secondary i added on the one inch torroid is on the other blank side of the torroid . simple really . anyways if you guys want to keep replaying over and over go right ahead . the cleaned up schematic is on the firs page of our SSJT thread . the second post is it .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on November 21, 2009, 06:48:37 PM

Sorry gadget, but you can't expect newcomers to start reading through these pages. If it wasn't posted 5 pages back then I'm not reading it. And I see nothing wrong with drawing your circuit the correct standard way. Newcomers are probably not aware of the gadget circuit drawing standards.

As it stands, there is still questions about your circuit drawing.

Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 21, 2009, 06:52:33 PM

Quote from: PaulLowrance on November 21, 2009, 06:38:02 PM
Okay, thanks. I'll wait for gadget to confirm the circuit and see if the "1 watt" LED is optional. I'm not here to chop apart his circuit or judge it, or make any assumptions, but just draw it the correct way, and then build it.

Paul

Hi paul . Its not an option if your replicating My circuit :) It causes an effect of reducing the current input as Jeanna and mk1 and ist and well every one else will tell you . If you use the EXACT parts you will get THE EXACT results !! If you dont then you probably won't .
Thanks for the interest .

GADGET

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: poynt99 on November 21, 2009, 06:52:39 PM

Quote from: jeanna on November 21, 2009, 06:43:08 PM
@poynt
Yes, but 2 of those windings are joined and they are actually one centertapped winding.
The reason for much confusion is that this centertapped part which is essential is often missed.

jeanna

Technically, the two connected windings are not a center-tapped winding. They are wound bifilar, and connected in series-adding. They are in effect two primaries connected in series, and the output winding is a secondary driving the LED.

A center-tapped winding or transformer is one continuous winding that has a tap somewhere along its travel. This is quite different than what we have here on the JT.

I think you would find that the circuit would work equally well if the three windings were put on separately, and the two which are connected could be done so as a true center-tap. The coupling due to the core is quite good I imagine, so it probably makes little difference how the windings are put on.

.99

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 21, 2009, 06:55:00 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on November 21, 2009, 05:43:31 PM
Ive been getting reasonable results off of two identical axial lead inductors placed parallel (and reversed ) to one another.

..8.5 volts on one and 35 volts on another setup... unfortunately this doesn't produce the spectacle that other joule thief circuits do, but it's worth noting that the configuration is similar to my 2 coil Helmholtz setup. I"ve tried placing a tertiary, but i'm limited by proximity, size factors make the circuit cumbersome to put on a breadboard..

....

Hi jadaro,

I think there are 2 things missing from making separate inductors like this.

1- as you noted, you cannot get them close enough to each other to make a proper secondary and

2- the toroid shape allows the magnetic flux to stay within the inductors. It switches back and forth depending on lots of things-basically tuning, and because the magnetic flux is not dissipating or radiating (much) it continues to oscillate with little to no work added.
In these circuits with secondaries, the only work needed to be added is just what it takes to run a transistor.
And that is less if the transistor is off much of the time as it is when the base resistor is a high ohmic value.

These are just some ideas based on my experiments and conclusions I have made based on what I have tried.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 21, 2009, 06:55:08 PM

Quote from: PaulLowrance on November 21, 2009, 06:48:37 PM
Sorry gadget, but you can't expect newcomers to start reading through these pages. If it wasn't posted 5 pages back then I'm not reading it. Paul

@ Paul:

Gee, you want everyone to drop everything and help you and yet you can't take the time to read back more than 5 pages? What's up with that?

Also, just to let you know, I noticed how you were badgering Slayer007 about his drawings on Dr. Stiffler's topic and demanding that he post them your way. Well sir, we do not put up with that over here. These are a great bunch of hard working, helpful folks here who have tried to help you. We will not put up with any one that comes into these topics and makes demands and yet can't take the time to read what is already out there.

Just letting you know for the future.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on November 21, 2009, 06:57:27 PM

@paul

You should listen , to what we are saying , since it seems impossible , maybe make a regular basic joule thief ,first, and if you really can't go 5 pages , what are we to do post the schematic every page ?

The only hard thing about it seems to get you to get it.

Make one !

Hard ? can't go 5 pages back , lol ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 21, 2009, 07:01:06 PM

Quote from: poynt99 on November 21, 2009, 06:52:39 PM
Technically, the two connected windings are not a center-tapped winding. They are wound bifilar, and connected in series-adding. They are in effect two primaries connected in series, and the output winding is a secondary driving the LED.

A center-tapped winding or transformer is one continuous winding that has a tap somewhere along its travel. This is quite different than what we have here on the JT.

.99

The reason it is centertapped is because the place where they are joined is connected to the positive of the battery.
If you connect the other (free) ends to the battery terminals it would be in series.

another way to say it is:
the direction of the turns is opposite on this and that is what is making it oscillate.
You can try all day long but if you make them this way it will oscillate, and if you don't it won't.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on November 21, 2009, 07:05:57 PM

Okay Gadget,

Attacked is the latest. Any corrections? I want to get this exact! As you say, everything must be exact. :) I'm sure there are more corrections for my circuit drawing.

Thanks,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: broli on November 21, 2009, 07:09:46 PM

Lol. I really hope you attached the wrong one.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 21, 2009, 07:11:23 PM

Quote from: poynt99 on November 21, 2009, 06:52:39 PM
Technically, the two connected windings are not a center-tapped winding. They are wound bifilar, and connected in series-adding. They are in effect two primaries connected in series, and the output winding is a secondary driving the LED.

A center-tapped winding or transformer is one continuous winding that has a tap somewhere along its travel. This is quite different than what we have here on the JT.

I think you would find that the circuit would work equally well if the three windings were put on separately, and the two which are connected could be done so as a true center-tap. The coupling due to the core is quite good I imagine, so it probably makes little difference how the windings are put on.

.99

really i is center tapped . another way to wind this is take one wire wind 6 turns pull a loop then wind 5 more :) same thing . when you wind two wires two wires together you have two that you started with and two at the end . you have to ohm out one of the first two wires and connect it to the opposite wire on the end side . I hope this makes since . and again maybe not . I might be an alien and cant communicate with people ???

gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on November 21, 2009, 07:13:30 PM

Woops, wrong attached old file. Now it's the updated file.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on November 21, 2009, 07:16:49 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on November 21, 2009, 06:55:08 PM
@ Paul:

Gee, you want everyone to drop everything and help you and yet you can't take the time to read back more than 5 pages? What's up with that?

Also, just to let you know, I noticed how you were badgering Slayer007 about his drawings on Dr. Stiffler's topic and demanding that he post them your way. Well sir, we do not put up with that over here. These are a great bunch of hard working, helpful folks here who have tried to help you. We will not put up with any one that comes into these topics and makes demands and yet can't take the time to read what is already out there.

Just letting you know for the future.

Bill

I don't know about "demanding" that slayer007 post the circuit details, but his circuit was incomplete. This is open source forum, right?

Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 21, 2009, 07:18:41 PM

Quote from: PaulLowrance on November 21, 2009, 07:05:57 PM
Okay Gadget,

Attacked is the latest. Any corrections? I want to get this exact! As you say, everything must be exact. :) I'm sure there are more corrections for my circuit drawing.

Thanks,
Paul

for god sakes man . here .

Bill could you please clean up some of the bad schematics . i don't want any part of them . i know we all dont like to be nasty but paul read page 996 and go from there /then if there is something you need to ask or draw make sure its right . My first schematic is right . the only thing wrong is the secondary lower wire was overlapping the bottom of the coil /.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on November 21, 2009, 07:22:25 PM

Quote from: jeanna on November 21, 2009, 07:01:06 PM

The reason it is centertapped is because the place where they are joined is connected to the positive of the battery.
If you connect the other (free) ends to the battery terminals it would be in series.

another way to say it is:
the direction of the turns is opposite on this and that is what is making it oscillate.
You can try all day long but if you make them this way it will oscillate, and if you don't it won't.

thank you,

jeanna

Nice! I just saw that in spice. If the windings is wrong, it will not oscillate. When I reversed the winding as you say, it is now oscillating! :)

Thanks for the help,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 21, 2009, 07:24:56 PM

Gadgetmall:

All drawings updated as you requested.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 21, 2009, 07:28:26 PM

Gadget,

Would you please help me with the thermostat thing?

I see it is a switch.
Is it a standard switch I can buy at the hardware store?
I think it is unusual voltage, and I bet it has more than 2 wires in it??

thank you,
I am so glad you saw this!!!!!

We can have that cuppa tea soon.

jeanna

edit
Great Paul!

I am so glad it has helped.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: poynt99 on November 21, 2009, 07:30:40 PM

jeanna and gadget,

If you moved the operating frequency of this device way up there in the MHz, it might be possible to have it work without any core at all. However, in this case all 3 windings would have to be wound tri-filar.

If we go back a step and think only of the basic JT circuit, there are now only two wires that need to be wound bifilar. The circuit relies on the coupling between the two windings, and in that sense they are simply two closely-coupled but separate inductors. One is for generating inductive kickback, and the other is a pickup coil that triggers the transistor.

So, it's only terminology and I don't expect you to understand or even care, but technically speaking, the connection between the two coupled inductors is not a center tap. ;)

.99

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 21, 2009, 07:38:57 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on November 21, 2009, 07:24:56 PM
Gadgetmall:

All drawings updated as you requested.

Bill

Thank you Bill . man o man

@paul . so you have never actually made a jt huh? your a newbe :) just pokin fun and trying to break the ICE . . regardless of how to wind it its cenertapped to positive of the primary battery . thanks for you interest .

L8r supper time

gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on November 21, 2009, 07:52:30 PM

Quote from: poynt99 on November 21, 2009, 07:30:40 PM
So, it's only terminology and I don't expect you to understand or even care, but technically speaking, the connection between the two coupled inductors is not a center tap. ;)

poynt99,
When some of the poster here say "center tapped," they might be referring to their own lingo. Who knows. I have gadgets circuit running nicely in spice. So at least I know it oscillates. ;)

Gadget,
I don't see the big deal with people trying to get the details. You people are using unconventional descriptions. Maybe more people would replicate it if the drawing was clearer. Anyhow, I gather that my last drawing was correct?

Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 21, 2009, 07:55:40 PM

thank you everyone

nice to see you agin 99

j your so patient! my my

sorry gadget and everyone .. didnt mean too ..

lol

but its ok ! we gonna pick up the pace really soon ;)

w

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 21, 2009, 07:58:11 PM

Paul,
Your last drawing was correct.

Gadget is a radio guy.
They have an understanding of turning wires that most people do not.

I am glad spice has a joule thief, now how about it?
Make a real one.
Then you can smile because you have a bright light that is almost free.
When you add many many lights in series to the secondary as many of us have, you will smile broader because you will have MANY lights for almost free.

However you do this, I hope you
Enjoy your day.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on November 21, 2009, 07:59:07 PM

In all fairness to the guy selling the bcaps on ebay, this should be posted in all fairness. He wrote back saying,

"Dear paullowrance,

If that was Albert ----- he has been purchasing dozens of these and reselling them. No problems so far see my feedback. If too much voltage was applied they can be damaged. See Maxwell website for more info on the use of these.- cusdn"

Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 21, 2009, 08:00:06 PM

Quote from: PaulLowrance on November 21, 2009, 07:52:30 PM
poynt99,
When some of the poster here say "center tapped," they might be referring to their own lingo. Who knows. I have gadgets circuit running nicely in spice. So at least I know it oscillates. ;)

Gadget,
I don't see the big deal with people trying to get the details. You people are using unconventional descriptions. Maybe more people would replicate it if the drawing was clearer. Anyhow, I gather that my last drawing was correct?

Paul

Paul:

People have been giving and getting the details here for over 10,000 posts but, since you are not motivated enough to read back more than 5 pages, you don't get it. WE all understand this terminology because it was all agreed upon back, you guessed it, in the previous pages.

Look at it this way...when the transistor was invented back at Bell Labs, and they decided to call it a transistor after all of their research efforts, someone later comes in and says "That's not a transistor...what is a transistor anyway?" it might not be received too well. Especially if all of the research leading up to that point was published and readily available to all who choose to read it.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on November 21, 2009, 08:05:27 PM

Okay I appreciate it Bill. So how many pages back in this thread should a person read? All 1000+ of them?

Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on November 21, 2009, 08:11:00 PM

@Paul

I believe the first 150 pages or so , should be enough to get you up to speed.

After that is more elaborated version , and confirmation of concepts from the beginning pages .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 21, 2009, 08:12:06 PM

Paul,
I have suggested this before, but maybe you didn't hear it.
I assume you are using firefox with adblock turned on, because those ads take a long time to load each page.
Beyond that go to your profile page and find the setting that changes the number of posts per page.
Mine is set to 50 posts per page, and it really helps. It is one page instead of 5.

It is up to you, of course.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 21, 2009, 08:39:54 PM

@ Paul:

I agree with MK1 and Jeanna...the first 150 or so will give you a good solid foundation on our progression here. I believe I made it up to about page 600 in the Joule Thief diagrams topic where I posted the schematics and referenced the page they were posted on in this topic. But, I will say that, since things were progressing so fast, some of those may be outdated now by newer and improved circuits.

I went back the other day and read the first 50 pages over again (I guess I was bored and could not sleep) and I was amazed at how far everyone on here has come in that short time.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 21, 2009, 08:51:01 PM

Quote from: jeanna on November 21, 2009, 07:28:26 PM
Gadget,

Would you please help me with the thermostat thing?

I see it is a switch.
Is it a standard switch I can buy at the hardware store?
I think it is unusual voltage, and I bet it has more than 2 wires in it??

thank you,
I am so glad you saw this!!!!!

We can have that cuppa tea soon.

jeanna

edit
Great Paul!

I am so glad it has helped.

Jeanna it can be several types of switches . I like the Bi metal contact . it can also be a thremal cutoff . you can find these in almost and device that heats . hairdryers , irons dryers . Its a matter of just moving it closer or further away for these and as far as the bi metal you just bend the metal to meet the heat needs . I hope this helps . There is also the old thermostat that have a tilt mercury switch in them so when a given temperature is reached it tilts the mercury and either breaks or makes the connection . agree THIS IS VERY HIGH AMPERAGE AND
THERMAL CUTOUTs are probable what i will use other wise i just use a switch :)

@paul thank you for your Interest . If your replicating then fine .I think thought you need to start on page 1 or go to evilmadscientist.com and learn how to make one there before drafting up someone elses work ..

gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 21, 2009, 09:02:45 PM

I will re-post this here:

http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-a-Joule-Thief/

This is what I used to make my first working basic joule thief. Very good, clear instructions. The Evil Mad Scientist labs version was fine except, they were not clear, at least to me, on tying the two end wires together from the bifilar winding.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on November 21, 2009, 09:48:24 PM

@paul

The corrected circuit is here.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 21, 2009, 10:04:34 PM

HolY crap . What a wasps nest i stirred up huh. I cannot help but think how simple this circuit is . It's only part mine at that . the tank piece its not really the one i normally use .and . the secondary is jeanna's idea . this is been the STANDARD circuit for me all the way since the first 100 pages . My 7 year old can make one . she have made several . the Schematic is straight forward if you made one if not go to mad scientist ,learn . I cannot believe all the negative comments about where is the ou . DUH ? Well if they don't see it then there never will be over unity . the Cool thing is a small blast from the charged bcap back to the input and your back where you started( in my case 1.495 AA)and still have a full bcap . HMM? I don't know . I guess this happens all the time right non believers ? Show me a circuit if you can beat one as simple as this . Show me 3500 amps @ 2.6 volts from an aa battery . Show me ? You can't unless you use an ultracap.PERIOD . I think they are scared because i have already one the prize . If i do, i promise to Share it with the gang .they are all involved .they all listen and we all have learned.
Gnite .

oh one more thing
Experiment 2 part three is still running !!! run at .811 and Charge Bcap is 1.279 !! still . id say that is still an Ou effect going on here even at the third swap fumbled by a kitten . we haven reached My goal of 1.3 yet but by morning we will see.

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 21, 2009, 10:09:04 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on November 21, 2009, 09:48:24 PM
@paul

The corrected circuit is here.

Jesus

welcome back i have missed you sir!

im so glad you returned you have done sooooo much work and effort toword this ...

no one is left out !!

great to have you back with us !

w

gadget im laughing my ass off!

silly humans ... :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 21, 2009, 10:10:33 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on November 21, 2009, 09:48:24 PM
@paul

The corrected circuit is here.

Jesus

Thank God ! Jesus saves the day once again than you for clearing up My Mess :) I was hoping you would pop in but then again you are always here and never left . you are the first person i thought of when that lower line on the secondary in tiny cad smakked thru the bottom of the jt drawing . i did not thing it was a big deal at the time because i described it along with the drawing .
thank you so much.

gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on November 21, 2009, 10:11:47 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on November 21, 2009, 10:09:04 PM
welcome back i have missed you sir!

im so glad you returned you have done sooooo much work and effort toword this ...

no one is left out !!

great to have you back with us !

w

Thank you @innovation!
Thank you @gadgetmall!
I have been reading a lot.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on November 22, 2009, 12:23:25 AM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on November 21, 2009, 09:48:24 PM
@paul

The corrected circuit is here.

Jesus

Closing the switch on this particular circuit cause the path to short ( bypass ) the oscillator; unless the capacitor and the nichrome wire are on a secondary, then the battery is directly charging the capacitor and the oscillator is providing additional voltage. This isn't the circuit you're looking for... and after 10k posts I would have thought you all would realize this. :P ( I mean not to offend ...) You can test the idea by removing R1.. the capacitor will charge without the oscillator and will charge to a voltage of the source minus the forward voltage drop of the diode D2.

Of course that wire is going to get hot..it's shorted either across the battery or the capacitor and it's running in parallel with said source ( going to the heater wire ).

About that secondary, which I know is optional,

@Jeanna, what does the waveform look like without rectification off of a secondary ( perhaps you have an old image)?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 22, 2009, 12:34:28 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on November 22, 2009, 12:23:25 AM

@Jeanna, what does the waveform look like without rectification?

It looks different every time.
The only thing that has ever happened when there is something across the C-E is the voltage on the secondary is way down.
I have not made this one yet, but there is rarely something in that C-E position when I look, so I will see, because this is a very interesting question. It may tell us something.

I could try it tonight sort of, but I will do it in the day so tomorrow.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on November 22, 2009, 12:49:44 AM

Quote from: jeanna on November 22, 2009, 12:34:28 AM
It looks different every time.
The only thing that has ever happened when there is something across the C-E is the voltage on the secondary is way down.
I have not made this one yet, but there is rarely something in that C-E position when I look, so I will see, because this is a very interesting question. It may tell us something.

I could try it tonight sort of, but I will do it in the day so tomorrow.

jeanna

Thank you, as soon as I can afford a scope I'll probably get one. I want to see what goes on across a coil NOT integrated into the oscillation mechanism, such as gadget's indicator light..just a reading on the bare wires. Unrectified, I have a feeling it will look something like this, with a higher forward then back, just depending on the polarity of the probes.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 22, 2009, 01:01:05 AM

Jadaro:

Here is a scope shot off one of my basic JT coils unrectified:

This was operating on a single AA battery.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 22, 2009, 01:12:39 AM

for 1 your wave form depends on many things...

i had perfect sine 680 v

you see this can be built literly 1000 ways

i choose a simple design for a advanced coil ... beond anything patened yet that im even close to aware of

i garentee you my work is yet un matched !

this is like i said long time a go my BABY TOYS...

when i start mutible freqs... yikes .. i have posted youtube videos long ago .. ist 5555 coil

this one im building puts that one to shame ... lol and its 2 freq 3 phase npn /pnp or eather

any how ...

its only 1 tiny coil ... it packs 1 heck of a punch of understanding ... ;)

w

get my message yet ?

WORLD PEACE ... NO MORE FIGHTING ...

many problems exsist in the cosmos as a result of your silly human actions ..

i was born on earth i was dumb as hell too ... but i woke up ..... :o

of course your gonna think im nuts cooco luni crakpot or whatever ... this is because you havent done 1 lick of reserch ... or your trying to hide the truth of creation ...

i have spent years at what i do ..

i have a gift of vision i have had my life

you speek it i see it ya know.... ;)

i encourage you digg deep i am not wrong .. ;) it is possible i may be on a string of sorts ... i have no idea nor means to check .. all i know is if it feels right good chances it is ...

2 things in creation love and hate .. god has 2 faces ... it must be so ...

this is where it gets messed up ... and i aint gonna go there

please i encourge you all to come to your own conclusions im not force feeding on you .. only shareing what i have gone through as i well know all walk the same path that i just have ... ;)

lets call it a tip btw im a beleaver not a deciever ... good thing i choose the right path...

but i really hate spoon feeding but times up!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on November 22, 2009, 01:30:51 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on November 22, 2009, 01:01:05 AM
Jadaro:

Here is a scope shot off one of my basic JT coils unrectified:

This was operating on a single AA battery.

Bill

Where is the baseline in your photo?, and honestly, I don't know what i'm looking at, I can see that the upper angle is steeper than the lower angle, does this confirm my hypothesis?

Quote from: innovation_station on November 22, 2009, 01:12:39 AM
for 1 your wave form depends on many things...

i had perfect sine 680 v

you see this can be built literly 1000 ways

w

I understand what you mean, depending upon the coil configuration, the wave would be conformant to the design.

However, on a symmetrical basis, the current flowing through to the base would be less than the current flowing to the collector when in the on position, it seems reasonable to assume that any non integrated secondaries would be more powerful in one direction than in the other based on the differing current characteristics in the primary coils; I realize that the design can overcome this.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 22, 2009, 01:42:15 AM

Jadaro:

The base line is the line with the little cross hatch marks running 90 degrees to the main line. In that photo all of the waves are above the base and the bottom of the wave is sitting on the base. I don't think this confirms your posit but, I don't really know what you meant.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on November 22, 2009, 01:55:23 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on November 22, 2009, 01:42:15 AM
Jadaro:

The base line is the line with the little cross hatch marks running 90 degrees to the main line. In that photo all of the waves are above the base and the bottom of the wave is sitting on the base. I don't think this confirms your posit but, I don't really know what you meant.

Bill

Well, I mean, the Zero of the wave, where it crosses from negative to positive - or the neutral position - as would be the centerline of the wave. My posit ( I forget the word earlier ) was / is / that the wave has what audio enthusiasts call a DC offset, where the centerline of the wave is offset from the waveform - in other words, it's off center.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 22, 2009, 02:01:12 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on November 22, 2009, 12:49:44 AM
Thank you, as soon as I can afford a scope I'll probably get one. I want to see what goes on across a coil NOT integrated into the oscillation mechanism, such as gadget's indicator light..just a reading on the bare wires. Unrectified, I have a feeling it will look something like this, with a higher forward then back, just depending on the polarity of the probes.

No,
I can say it rarely looks like that.

I will make a little drawing.
Bill, I think yours is from the primary across the C-E isn't it?

QuoteIt is a great pic of what gadget is capturing because this is where his cap is.

Unrectified it looks like trees along the street in winter.

______||__|___||_____||____|___|_|_|___|_____||____|__||__|
and they are often as varied for one coil as this is too.

---=========----
I have a pic for a saturday night.
Remember last year when I bought the string o leds and the results were horrid?
I had to have 300 v and still only half of the leds lit dimly.
Then I took it apart and found diodes in the wires embedded in a kind of foam plastic that had obviously been formed around the lights. ick.

I set them aside, and tonight was the night to do the deed.

I removed 34 leds from the rest of the wire strings but kept the single string, so there is 1 wire connecting them all.
I stripped each end and set it into my new high output tiny toroid.
this is the jt whose secondary is giving me 172v and I can tune it higher.

I showed it the other day with a neon. the MK1-jeanna hybrid...
so, I can say this is as bright as the string can be from the wall.
I have one in the wall for comparison, but for now here it is.
This is a lovely lighting for the hallway and around the house or garden.

jeanna

edit
jadaro,
yes it is a little off center. It is usually about 30% below the x axis.
My measurements are from peak to peak so that would not change, but yes, you are right about this.
j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 22, 2009, 02:03:11 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on November 22, 2009, 12:23:25 AM
Closing the switch on this particular circuit cause the path to short ( bypass ) the oscillator; unless the capacitor and the nichrome wire are on a secondary, then the battery is directly charging the capacitor and the oscillator is providing additional voltage. This isn't the circuit you're looking for... and after 10k posts I would have thought you all would realize this. :P ( I mean not to offend ...) You can test the idea by removing R1.. the capacitor will charge without the oscillator and will charge to a voltage of the source minus the forward voltage drop of the diode D2.

Of course that wire is going to get hot..it's shorted either across the battery or the capacitor and it's running in parallel with said source ( going to the heater wire ).

About that secondary, which I know is optional,

@Jeanna, what does the waveform look like without rectification off of a secondary ( perhaps you have an old image)?

I couldnt resist . I jumped the charge cap to the run cap D2 isolated the circuit if you jump the hot wire to plus of bcap and the LEds get brighter . and yes it get hot but the primary bcap charged very quick a 10th of a volt in a 2 second test . we will have will only give a short burst to the aa battery after 14 hours . this it can handle . . Well this works . all we need is a 55timmer to flash a mosfet for 5 seconds . It works . I did this because i am on the third swap of these bcaps running the circuit for days now . I will redo the whole experiment all over again this time one system will run from an aa battery and another will run from a charged bcap and testing the threoy which is now proof that the charged bcap can recharge the primary in a very short time to recover what it lost . It works as it is now only thing needed is a timer to pop the primary battery from the positive lead of the charge bcap . dont ask me why it works but it does .

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 22, 2009, 03:39:17 AM

Jeanna:

Very nice job removing the diodes! That IS as bright as in the wall...excellent!

That scope shot was taken a while back and the probes were placed on the output of the JT where the led would normally be attached. No secondary on that one, or any of mine...yet...until my big toroids get here and I replicate Lidmotor's Jeanna Light.

I went into the attic over here and found a nice little wooden box that was made to hold precision pin gauges. The inside measurements are enough to house the big toroid. I slapped a nice coat of walnut stain on it and, while it does not look as elegant as Lidmotor's, it should do nicely.

I was thinking, after looking at some catalogs tonight, of using a non-rechargeable industrial D cell. It is rated at 14,000 mA hours! Still 1.5 volts of course but, that should really run the cfl for quite some time. I am not going to make the first one rechargeable like Lid did...going to try to keep it simple just to make one that works. (Someone suggested this, ha ha)

Again, great job on lighting those leds.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on November 22, 2009, 08:42:02 AM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on November 21, 2009, 09:48:24 PM
@paul

The corrected circuit is here.

Jesus

Thanks, you replaced the R with a variable R, and added the optional switch to discharge the bcap. If gadget wants I can add the other cosmetic stuff as well such as the shunt resistor for the meter, etc. and even put in pretty meter icon if he wants, but I did not add those because the only focus was on trying to get gadget to explain his unconventional toroid drawing connections, which I and *others* were trying to figure out.

Gadget, calm down. Your keep saying that even your daughter can make one, so please stop with your insinuations and negative attacks. I was trying to figure out the toroid windings in your drawing. Okay? I don't make assumptions in circuits, so stop attacking people who ask questions.

Now I drew your toroid circuit in the correct conventional manner. If you want I can add the other cosmetic details for you to use in future posts. I'm not saying such details such as changing the R to a variable R icon is unimportant, but those are cosmetic details.

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 22, 2009, 10:20:52 AM

Quote from: PaulLowrance on November 22, 2009, 08:42:02 AM
Thanks, you replaced the R with a variable R, and added the optional switch to discharge the bcap. If gadget wants I can add the other cosmetic stuff as well such as the shunt resistor for the meter, etc. and even put in pretty meter icon if he wants, but I did not add those because the only focus was on trying to get gadget to explain his unconventional toroid drawing connections, which I and *others* were trying to figure out.

Gadget, calm down. Your keep saying that even your daughter can make one, so please stop with your insinuations and negative attacks. I was trying to figure out the toroid windings in your drawing. Okay? I don't make assumptions in circuits, so stop attacking people who ask questions.

Now I drew your toroid circuit in the correct conventional manner. If you want I can add the other cosmetic details for you to use in future posts. I'm not saying such details such as changing the R to a variable R icon is unimportant, but those are cosmetic details.

Regards,
Paul

Paul No insult intended i just have adiffernt ways of expression . And its true my daughter has built several .
I think everyone can read Jesus Schematic being he has a coil part for his cad program . i did not. i could have used a transformer with a center tap . same thing . just look at the diagram . if you stretch out that toroid vertical you see its center tapped . Thanks for the offer but most don't care about cosmetic as much as replicating it . And there is plenty of information to do that .

Kind Regards

gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 22, 2009, 10:27:56 AM

Quote from: jeanna on November 22, 2009, 02:01:12 AM
No,
I can say it rarely looks like that.

I will make a little drawing.
Bill, I think yours is from the primary across the C-E isn't it?
Unrectified it looks like trees along the street in winter.

______||__|___||_____||____|___|_|_|___|_____||____|__||__|
and they are often as varied for one coil as this is too.

---=========----
I have a pic for a saturday night.
Remember last year when I bought the string o leds and the results were horrid?
I had to have 300 v and still only half of the leds lit dimly.
Then I took it apart and found diodes in the wires embedded in a kind of foam plastic that had obviously been formed around the lights. ick.

I set them aside, and tonight was the night to do the deed.

I removed 34 leds from the rest of the wire strings but kept the single string, so there is 1 wire connecting them all.
I stripped each end and set it into my new high output tiny toroid.
this is the jt whose secondary is giving me 172v and I can tune it higher.

I showed it the other day with a neon. the MK1-jeanna hybrid...
so, I can say this is as bright as the string can be from the wall.
I have one in the wall for comparison, but for now here it is.
This is a lovely lighting for the hallway and around the house or garden.

jeanna

edit
jadaro,
yes it is a little off center. It is usually about 30% below the x axis.
My measurements are from peak to peak so that would not change, but yes, you are right about this.
j

Jeanna ! very nice . Is that a goldmine little torroid i see there / WoW . And welcome to the hackers tear it and use it wisely club :) I know you hate to tear up good conventional stuff :)
I bet this design would work more effectively on the heater circuit .
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on November 22, 2009, 10:55:09 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on November 21, 2009, 09:02:45 PM
I will re-post this here:

http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-a-Joule-Thief/ (http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-a-Joule-Thief/)

This is what I used to make my first working basic joule thief. Very good, clear instructions. The Evil Mad Scientist labs version was fine except, they were not clear, at least to me, on tying the two end wires together from the bifilar winding.

Bill

Here's a nice video for us newcomers on making a simple joule thief,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTAqGKt64WM

Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on November 22, 2009, 12:23:39 PM

Someone suggested moving the following post into this thread,

Hi,

Does anyone want to share their favorite JT video link?

I haven't seen many JT videos yet, but this one catches my interest,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFW1d5G6NnM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFW1d5G6NnM)

What do you think?

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 22, 2009, 12:45:31 PM

I'll be gone for several hours . My aunt is Dying in the hospital and i want to spend some time with her .
See you guys later . All i can say is I have demonstrated O U . Replicate it and you will see . The only way tp replicate this is EXACT . you can get the EverReady batteries at walmart in the camera section they come in range from 2200 mah to 2800 . i have them all . They are the Best Batteries i have ever worked with . NI-MH
you need two ultracaps to duplicte Experiment 1 and 2 as i have documented here from page 996 to the current page . Experiment 2 part 3 is almost complet and i reached My Goal of 1.301 charge bcap . the run cap is still working at .708 . this is for all you folks that have kept up with reading my post . So conclusion is three swaps of Bcaps alone reached OU of the run even with the Kitten fumbled experiment 2 part 2 . I will reset the experiment when i get home and do all three Experiments over again .This time putting them in a place the kitten don't disturb it .
Good Day
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 22, 2009, 01:46:09 PM

Quote from: PaulLowrance on November 22, 2009, 12:23:39 PM
Someone suggested moving the following post into this thread,

Hi,

Does anyone want to share their favorite JT video link?

I haven't seen many JT videos yet, but this one catches my interest,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFW1d5G6NnM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFW1d5G6NnM)

What do you think?

Regards,
Paul

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VYPbOciC9g (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VYPbOciC9g) (JT Test)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcJG_6YF1X4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcJG_6YF1X4) (JT AA bat. 48" tube)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZzGIkiLpfQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZzGIkiLpfQ) (3 ultrabright leds with JT and AA)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqESU5w39xY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqESU5w39xY) (JT and AA light 100 leds)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWNGUJdQACU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWNGUJdQACU) (JT lights superbright led from supercap)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xn3QVoxHH7E (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xn3QVoxHH7E) (JT lights 3 superbright leds from supercap)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co4WsKOcJk0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co4WsKOcJk0) (JT lights 200 leds from AA bat.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BgPTVkZsxw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BgPTVkZsxw) (JT lights two 48" tubes from AA)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atFTenzGHSA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atFTenzGHSA) (JT light 300 leds from AA bat.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RVvdCovYDY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RVvdCovYDY) (JT lights 400 leds from AA bat.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPWh2hiJ758 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPWh2hiJ758) (JT sounds)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUR3jR75ZeQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUR3jR75ZeQ) (JT night light)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQpx86Eg03g (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQpx86Eg03g) (JT lights 100 leds on single wire only)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD77lY9xG6k (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD77lY9xG6k) (JT super cap effects)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27QJ92ruzeE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27QJ92ruzeE) (2 JTs in parallel on single AA bat)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXo4-gYBczc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXo4-gYBczc) (100 leds lit from JT and supercap, no battery)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lu8uygSM9XM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lu8uygSM9XM) (JT coil lamp)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTyDCigcF5U (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTyDCigcF5U) (JT ultraviolet tests)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYhNw6SuTfA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYhNw6SuTfA) (JT Wilby's Bird UV led tests)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmsDvNDTz_w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmsDvNDTz_w) (earth battery JT tests)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4gRDwPqSz4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4gRDwPqSz4) (EB JT supercap experiments)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEr6-4TeCTA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEr6-4TeCTA) ( EB JT supercaps light 7 leds)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaUBxUJrGzY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaUBxUJrGzY) (EB JT supercap lights 100 leds)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fV-xjRy3I4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fV-xjRy3I4) (18" tube lit by EB JT and supercap)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kL8ys8m0-4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kL8ys8m0-4) (earth battery JT supercap run 48" tube)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLzdHRovnbo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLzdHRovnbo) (EB super cap JT light 200 leds)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agqKEed7AOI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agqKEed7AOI) (EB JT supercap lights 400 leds)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XW3ZGjrL0Os (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XW3ZGjrL0Os) (JT led flashlight modifications)

I have more videos but I think these are the best ones I have posted. These are presented here in the order in which they were made so folks can see the progression of the experiments. These have all been posted here before as they were made but, for the new folks, I put them here again all in one post.

Bill ***EDIT*** Gadget, very sorry to hear about your Aunt.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on November 22, 2009, 02:16:55 PM

@jeanna,

thanks for this confirmation. I'll be testing some circuits later today, maybe with better results.

@gadget, i'm not sure how you're seeing past the fact that one side is charging the other directly ( by current ) and indirectly ( by voltage )...if I had the ultracaps, I would gladly test this idea. BTW, how are you limiting the voltage to tolerable limits?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on November 22, 2009, 02:20:47 PM

Hi gadgetmall can one use a bank of batteries for that 650f cap instead. Another thing I found this kind of schematic maybe it would be of a use in your circuit gadgetmall.
Sorry for the rough diagram.
Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 22, 2009, 03:06:44 PM

ha ha ha

:)

nice! lol

i have a few units like that ... lol

be carefull if you go hv ... dc can kill you dead ... 1 zap ! :o :o :o :o

this is EAXCTALLY why we have taken the path we have ...

it is safe .. and it works from 1 aa battery and it wont kill ya ..

;D

w

this is the GOLDEN AGE!

i feel i gave a cave man a blow torch when he was still rubbing sticks ... for fire ;)

but time is sliding away ...

no gadget your not the cave man you sit with me and the others ..... you were my fast test outlet!

do not feel used ! im damm proud of you sir! i will back up all of my claims regarding this basic stuff ...

with the MEAT for the soup ..we started cooking ... ;) so to speek!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 22, 2009, 03:08:51 PM

Quote from: guruji on November 22, 2009, 02:20:47 PM
Hi gadgetmall can one use a bank of batteries for that 650f cap instead. Another thing I found this kind of schematic maybe it would be of a use in your circuit gadgetmall.
Sorry for the rough diagram.
Thanks

No . Batteries have been tested for over 6 moths by everybody . check out Jesus thread feedback to source . they only capture Cool Electricity kind of but it does a Little work . If you know what you are doing you can actually burn batteries up with a bedini like i have done over and over. Ultra caps are Needed to capture AMPS on this circuit and i'm sticking with what works for the prize .later on we will have many new projects here . but for now free energy is here at last for real . Any replication anyone does needs to be what i used . you wont see it with surecap or batteries with this standard JT . i already did those test for you .I am redoing Experiment 1 with the AA battery and also experiment 2 with nothing but ultracaps AGAIN for you guys untile some one repets My exact replication i don't know what else to do but enjoy my new AA powered heater /light . i am building a small overunity circuit groundloop made so this device is self sustaining as well . BIG TIME .. Don't believe the ney Sayers i know what i am talking about from the previous tests .

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 22, 2009, 03:09:57 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on November 22, 2009, 02:16:55 PM
@jeanna,

thanks for this confirmation. I'll be testing some circuits later today, maybe with better results.

@gadget, i'm not sure how you're seeing past the fact that one side is charging the other directly ( by current ) and indirectly ( by voltage )...if I had the ultracaps, I would gladly test this idea. BTW, how are you limiting the voltage to tolerable limits?

Dont know All i know is one wire from the charged bcap charges the run in a 5 second burst . Same effect can be seen on all my Bedini Circuits .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on November 22, 2009, 05:09:05 PM

No I meant a bank of caps no batteries ;D I don't know why I said batteries.
Ok with a bank of caps with same voltage it would be good I think no?

Quote from: gadgetmall on November 22, 2009, 03:08:51 PM
No . Batteries have been tested for over 6 moths by everybody . check out Jesus thread feedback to source . they only capture Cool Electricity kind of but it does a Little work . If you know what you are doing you can actually burn batteries up with a bedini like i have done over and over. Ultra caps are Needed to capture AMPS on this circuit and i'm sticking with what works for the prize .later on we will have many new projects here . but for now free energy is here at last for real . Any replication anyone does needs to be what i used . you wont see it with surecap or batteries with this standard JT . i already did those test for you .I am redoing Experiment 1 with the AA battery and also experiment 2 with nothing but ultracaps AGAIN for you guys untile some one repets My exact replication i don't know what else to do but enjoy my new AA powered heater /light . i am building a small overunity circuit groundloop made so this device is self sustaining as well . BIG TIME .. Don't believe the ney Sayers i know what i am talking about from the previous tests .

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 22, 2009, 06:21:35 PM

Quote from: guruji on November 22, 2009, 05:09:05 PM
No I meant a bank of caps no batteries ;D I don't know why I said batteries.
Ok with a bank of caps with same voltage it would be good I think no?

Of regular capacitors . Not sure . This has also been tried for other contributing members with varying results . I do NOT think you can run nichrome heating elements on regular caps . there is not enough farads for the time needed to heat it . I am sure they will charge up and fast though. . try it :) there are way better cap charger Jt circuits . I just wanted to demonstrate a simple one will do the job BIG TIME Mine work though and this is no BULL . thank you for your interest again .

Gadget .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on November 22, 2009, 08:10:16 PM

Quote from: poynt99 on November 21, 2009, 07:30:40 PM
jeanna and gadget,

If you moved the operating frequency of this device way up there in the MHz, it might be possible to have it work without any core at all. However, in this case all 3 windings would have to be wound tri-filar.

poynt99

I am sure you are right in theory.

The problem is JTs don't always follow the rules.

That is probably why this thread is filled with posts of mostly self taught expermenters .

Quite a few people tried many different kinds of cores and even no core at all .

If you have made a few JTs I have one for you to try .

Take at least 6 ft of twisted pair wire. I used wire from a Cat5 cable.
Connect the start of one wire of the twisted pair with the end of the other . Just like it was a standard JT coil.

Hook up a pot for a base resistor ...... and connect a transistor and a battery ......and just like magic .........you have a working JT

I agree at first glance it looks like a secondary on this kind of JT would have to be wound trifilar ...........but have you ever made a primary for a JT with a twisted pair ?
If you have a low perm toroid it just takes a few wraps of the twisted pair ........so ...... it only takes a few wraps of the twisted pair to add a toroid to our previously no core JT .

I do not know how many toroids can be added to this kind of JT .........I had 10 going at one point .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: topothemtn on November 22, 2009, 08:26:21 PM

I have a question please.
Can a JT be used with a earth battery?
I ask because my earth battery seems to have a DC voltage and an AC voltage.
Thanks

Topothemtn.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 22, 2009, 08:46:36 PM

Quote from: topothemtn on November 22, 2009, 08:26:21 PM
I have a question please.
Can a JT be used with a earth battery?
I ask because my earth battery seems to have a DC voltage and an AC voltage.
Thanks

Topothemtn.

Hi topothemtn,
Yes.
Bill made a youtube video using his fuji circuit jt. and lit leds also joule thief also bedini on and on...

I have not, but I have very low voltage or amps here... or maybe I have hooked it up wrong!

About the DC and AC:
There appears to be a 0.6-0.9volts DC between the probes and about 8mV AC. I have one EB that has 2 stubblefield generators that gets 45mV-75mV AC.
There is a lot of discussion about this on the Earth battery threads. I don't remember which has the most posts about joule thief right now, but take a look there is a lot going on.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 22, 2009, 08:58:15 PM

Quote from: topothemtn on November 22, 2009, 08:26:21 PM
I have a question please.
Can a JT be used with a earth battery?
I ask because my earth battery seems to have a DC voltage and an AC voltage.
Thanks

Topothemtn.

Check a few posts back where I posted links to most of my JT experiments including the earth battery stuff.

It can be found on this page: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.10110

Yes, using supercaps you can do amazing things like I did. it is easy to replicate and not too much money. A quick recap here.....400 leds from an EB and JT/supercap circuit and a 48" tube from the same set-up. I also ran an electric Bedini motor from the EB. Please read most of this topic to see or, at least look back at my post from today where I list all of those aforementioned videos.

Welcome to our group. You are already thinking along the right track.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: topothemtn on November 22, 2009, 09:28:22 PM

Thanks for the feedback Bill. After I posted that I found your post about using an earth battery.

Guess I jumped the gun. LOL

The way I see it is to try and use completly free energy to go thru the JT and make it do useful work.

Just like what you are doing. I have an earth battery going; will now build a JT and see where I can go from there.

I may not catch up with your work but I will be stumbling along somewhere behind you!!!

Thanks again.

Dick

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 22, 2009, 09:43:54 PM

Dick:

Thanks. Here is the deal as I see it. The EB will put out limited volts and amps as we know how to extract it. But, this may improve with the research that is ongoing. (I hope it does) What the JT circuit does, and the supercap addition, is to allow us to capture the high spikes and make them into usable energy. Most stuff in modern electronics is designed to filter out spikes as they are not wanted. In the case of the EB...we want those spikes because I discovered that the supercaps retain these spikes and I can get useful POWER from the EB.

I would suggest that you also check out the earth battery topics and the earth energy documentation topics as well.

We welcome new folks that come in and maybe have their own ideas of what might work. we have seen that sometimes, the new folks bring in an idea that we missed and this brings us along to another level.

Feel free to ask any questions that you might have. The folks here are very friendly and very knowledgeable, and maybe you have an idea we did not think of.

Once again, welcome and, I look forward to reading of your experiments.

Thanks,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: topothemtn on November 22, 2009, 09:52:05 PM

OK Bill.
I have downloaded all the Vids you posted links to.

As I said I may not ever catch up with your work. But those Vids will surely help.

Thanks Dick

Also thank you Jenna. I will look at some of the stuff you talked about.

Thanks all.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 22, 2009, 10:00:43 PM

Dick:

Check out Jeanna's videos because, I show what I did in mine, and she shows how to do what she did in hers.

I really hate to suggest that folks read all of this topic....some 10,000+ posts but, there is some good stuff in there for sure.

No one here will have any problem answering questions so, if you ever have any, just ask. Especially about my videos, they are not great, nor do they answer a lot of questions so, if you have any, let me know.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on November 22, 2009, 11:28:51 PM

I started a new thread Joule Thief 101

I started by trying to explain the basic construction of a JT

I would hope that others that have been here a while will add more about what they have done or are doing with JTs

Pllease leave most of the chat and comments on this thread .
Lets keep the JT 101 thread a place new people can go and get up to speed about JTs without having to read 1000 pages .

It would be nice a few people added links to videos and webpages that explain how to make JTs ..........then on to what we have been doing with them ........

With the Ultra cap thing going on we are going to attract new people ....... there will be lots of questions .... why not answer them over there .........so the next people can find them easier .

If enough information is put over there ...... then it should become required reading before asking questions here.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 22, 2009, 11:40:02 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on November 22, 2009, 02:16:55 PM
@jeanna,

thanks for this confirmation. I'll be testing some circuits later today, maybe with better results.

@gadget, i'm not sure how you're seeing past the fact that one side is charging the other directly ( by current ) and indirectly ( by voltage )...if I had the ultracaps, I would gladly test this idea. BTW, how are you limiting the voltage to tolerable limits?

Ki jarado . There is now a circuit that Alex(Groundloop) and so kindly contributed that will regulate the voltage replenish of the run aa battery and also discharge or connect the ulra cap to the load to discharge it to a preset level then the cycle repeats . I am starting the build tomorrow and will have the proto type Ou CIRCUIT CONTROLLER operational hopefully in the next week or so . . Also anyone can more that likely use a battery and a super cap to see the charging effect and then replenish the run battery with one wire crossed between the positive of the output cap ti the positive of the battery .wait until its charged to or above its original voltage then discharge your cap and let the cycle repeat until the super cap is full once again and repeat above process . the only problem is that most supercaps cannot hold 2500 ma and above like the ultracap. so a supercap may not show the self run portion .
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: powercat on November 23, 2009, 08:30:50 AM

Hi Gadget & Bill & All
The energy revolution has arrived, subject to replication and verification, and it's looking like this is going to happen very soon :o
ultracaps are going to be in big demand,so once the circuit is confirmed to be OU I want to order as many as I can afford to get, I feel there are other members here who would like to do the same, may be a group purchase will be the best way of getting reasonably priced ultracaps.

As I live on a boat and use a battery bank to provide all my power, I'm interested in scaling up this circuit to charge my batteries for free 24hr a day, how possible do you guys think this is ?

cat

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 23, 2009, 08:43:48 AM

eyes closed easy! i hope for it to open a few :)

8)

w

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on November 23, 2009, 10:48:56 AM

I made a few changes to some of my setups and noticed that when my LED is in the ( red configuration ) upper position, the total consumption of the circuit is 40% less milliamps ( running at 5.4ma rather than what it would be in the blue position... @8.9ma ... I think this worthy to share, as the LED lights up just as bright as it would in either position yet it uses less miliamps.

Make a note that when the transistor is OFF and the mag field is collapsing, the voltage allows the LED to short the path from positive through coil to ground ( in the blue position ).. this does NOT occur in the RED path, as the only means to ground is through the transistor and out of the base.

This setup ( red ) removes any current taking a path to ground except via means of the transistor gate!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: DreamThinkBuild on November 23, 2009, 11:35:07 AM

@Gadgetmall, Keep up the good work, I'm interested in seeing the results of your final circuit. Ultracaps seem the way to go for pulse heating/charging. I found this paper interesting

http://web.ing.puc.cl/~power/paperspdf/dixon/tesis/PhDOrtuzar.pdf

"...Ultracapacitors have greater specific power (more than 1.5kW/kg) than conventional or advanced batteries; and higher specific energy (of about 3 to 5 Wh/kg) than aluminum electrolytic capacitors (Dietrich, 2001; Burke and Miller, 2002). Their advantage over batteries, in terms of power, is due to their reduced equivalent series resistance (ESR) and that in these elements, unlike batteries, there are no chemical reactions involved in the process of charge and discharge. Therefore, the speed needed to deliver energy does not depend on the speed of such reactions or the ability of chemical components to recombine, but on electrostatic phenomena, which does not require molecular mutation to take place. Also, the longer cycle life and good behavior at low temperatures (Schneuwly and Smith, 2005) are important advantages..."

@Powercat, I would also like to know the best way to run ultracaps off a battery bank. I use solar for all my charging which is fed to an inverter which is then run out to 2 banks of small battery chargers of 16 AA batteries which are used for lighting at night. During full sunlight the panels act as alternators, the battery bank voltage barely goes down, so it's pretty much free wasted energy. If this could be fed into a ultracap bank to run a pulse heater that would greatly cut heating costs during the day.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 23, 2009, 01:17:33 PM

As far as using banks of these devices, as Gadget has said previously, these Bcaps have a main advantage over a regular supercap in that you can put as many in series, or parallel as you want to in order to gain the power or volts output you require. Regular supercaps are limited in this type of configuration..I would have to check but I believe you can only series or parallel 2 or 3 of them and that is it.

Great devices these things.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on November 23, 2009, 01:29:32 PM

BTW, just out of curiosity, has anyone measured the energy contained in one of these ultracaps? Dr. Stiffler was just showing us detailed professional measurements of 3 farad supercaps. The measured capacitance was no where near what the manufacture claims, and the measured capacitance actually differs depending on the testing method, strangely enough. These are not the bcaps that gadget uses, but maybe they have the same issue, possibly worse.

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 23, 2009, 01:32:43 PM

in my opinion this is no consern ...

we need to see on a scope whats going on and understand it ... the jt is feeding output in pulses of 1 spike .... when you increase the spikes contained with in 1 pulse ... how much FASTER DO YOU THINK IT MAY CHARGE ?

w

this is ed ... ring the bell 2 times... and dont get bit!

a horse is a horse .... of course of course ... unless its MR ED ;) ... lmao

then it is magic ... lol
vv

i think 10 just went 15 :D or is 15 really 101 ?

right now your just grasping my starter .. for all my advanced devices...

now soon enough we can refer to all the old pattends ... last time round this rock ..

then you will see how i have seen them all along hence why i rarely read the words ...

its all in the mind you know!

now when this finally un ravels .. you will see how and why i was the one to solve it ..

when i first saw the radient spark years ago .. 2 weeks into tpu reserch ... it clicked in my mind ...

i knew instantlly i did this b4 .. i knew it was the key that all had missed ... the verry essance of resonance is based on this is in fact ALL CREATION :o

imagine ... all those years ... just to cover this so there IS NO FIGHTING OR STEALING ...

ALL THAT EXISTIS IN YOUR REALITY INCLUDING YOU ...

IS BORROWERED ...

nobody owns nuttin ... ;)

dont think im crazy or nuts ... i can bet you all come to this conculsion .. in your own time ...

then we can debate it .. and find the truth .. ;)

it is impossible for 1 to know all .. but it is not impossible all to know 1 and when you do it makes sence ;D 8)

then and only then it may be possible to know all ... ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on November 23, 2009, 02:24:59 PM

Hi gagdetmall thanks for your response. I have a microwave oven cap; is that a supercap or just a normal cap?
Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 23, 2009, 03:21:22 PM

A cap found in a microwave oven is more likely a regular cap, and not a super cap. Remember Gadget said a supercap will not work for this, it has to be a boost cap.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on November 23, 2009, 03:59:41 PM

Technically speaking, according to Dr. Stiffler & WikiPedia, a supercapacitor is just another name for ultracapacitor. Wikipedia states, "Electric double-layer capacitors, also known as supercapacitors, electrochemical double layer capacitors (EDLCs), or ultracapacitors"

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: DreamThinkBuild on November 23, 2009, 04:09:02 PM

Here is some inspiration for a pulse heater. Boiling water with ultracaps in 20 seconds. :o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RWaCE_SW8w&feature=player_embedded

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 23, 2009, 04:41:03 PM

Quote from: PaulLowrance on November 23, 2009, 03:59:41 PM
Technically speaking, according to Dr. Stiffler & WikiPedia, a supercapacitor is just another name for ultracapacitor. Wikipedia states, "Electric double-layer capacitors, also known as supercapacitors, electrochemical double layer capacitors (EDLCs), or ultracapacitors"

Paul:

Yes we have been using those 2 terms synonymously for a while now here. Gadget's boost cap is something different than a supercap or an ultracap which are trade names by different manufacturers. The bcap, like I have, has electrolyte inside like a battery but it is like a supercap also in the way it can be charged quickly and in the way it can deliver the energy.

I hope folks understand the difference. I may have added to the confusion because in all of my videos, I keep referring to the bcap as a supercap, and I called all of my other supercaps supercaps.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: powercat on November 23, 2009, 04:58:01 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on November 23, 2009, 04:41:03 PM
Paul:

Yes we have been using those 2 terms synonymously for a while now here. Gadget's boost cap is something different than a supercap or an ultracap which are trade names by different manufacturers. The bcap, like I have, has electrolyte inside like a battery but it is like a supercap also in the way it can be charged quickly and in the way it can deliver the energy.

I hope folks understand the difference. I may have added to the confusion because in all of my videos, I keep referring to the bcap as a supercap, and I called all of my other supercaps supercaps.

Bill

Hi Bill
Can you clarify for us all exactly the boost cap Gadget's OU circuit is using, I seem to remember it's made by Maxwell
cat

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 23, 2009, 05:13:23 PM

Quote from: DreamThinkBuild on November 23, 2009, 04:09:02 PM
Here is some inspiration for a pulse heater. Boiling water with ultracaps in 20 seconds. :o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RWaCE_SW8w&feature=player_embedded

Thank you DeamthinkBuild . /
I have the Ou controler 3/4 made waiting on a few parts , I'll post the picture in the advanced thread . :) also here is a nice video of someone trying to charge two up and smoking his charger and burning wire wire video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DAFKa4oxu4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vp2QDhcw6Bs
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: powercat on November 23, 2009, 05:46:03 PM

I am trying to answer my own question here, is this the cap ?
http://www.tecategroup.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=18_20_39&products_id=162
cat

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on November 23, 2009, 07:28:43 PM

@all

Wow , the jt is quite popular these day , but there are too many clowns around , lets not turn it into a circus...

Now the jt has nothing to do with the OU claims , its all about the cap ...

They may even even stop making those caps a company can be bought off anytime ...

I feel they made a mistake making those ... Good for us !

Now to conclude , for the same amp values you can do more with low amp high voltage then low voltage high amp.

High voltage doesn't act the same way low voltage dose , for charging a cap i prefer hv ...

Just think will a spark gap work on LowV...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 23, 2009, 07:46:04 PM

:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o 8) 8) 8) 8)

hop on the bus.... ;D

ist!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPXIjRB9mIU&feature=related

this wold is so sleepy ;D ;D ;D ;D

sail away sail away....

what simple feed back loop lol on the bus ...

the bus will go high speed soon 8)

not all tickets are collected in 2012 at the door! ;D some are picked early cuz there ripe ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 23, 2009, 08:56:04 PM

Quote from: powercat on November 23, 2009, 05:46:03 PM
I am trying to answer my own question here, is this the cap ?
http://www.tecategroup.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=18_20_39&products_id=162 (http://www.tecategroup.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=18_20_39&products_id=162)
cat

Mine does not look exactly like that, it is a little longer. The number on mine is
BCAP0650 E It is made by Maxwell and is 650 Farad. Gadget sells them a lot cheap than the site you posted the link to. (I bought mine from Gadgetmall) Mine is sealed up in some Tupperware for outside use.

It is a little hard to see it but here is a video where I ran a one magnet Bedini Motor from my EER and this cap: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rauOlhNK0iY

I call it a supercap in my video but it is in fact a boost cap and they are not the same so, I have been adding to the confusion out there on this. I didn't learn the difference until after that series of videos were made.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: powercat on November 23, 2009, 09:15:55 PM

Thank's Bill
You and the team have had a lot of success with the Jule Thief, and I wish you all the best for the future with the ultimate OU Jule Thief.

cat

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 23, 2009, 09:28:42 PM

Powercat:

Thank you very much. I really believe some great things will come out of the JT boostcap combination. Regular supercaps are great with the JT circuit also and allow you to do some really great stuff from a single AA battery.

I just got word that my 3.375" OD ferrite toroids are on the way here from All electronics. My project is no where near as ambitious as Gadget's, I am going to replicate Lidmotor's Jeanna Light. I think that is the coolest thing I have ever seen done with a JT and a CFL.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 23, 2009, 09:30:45 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on November 23, 2009, 07:28:43 PM
@all

Wow , the jt is quite popular these day , but there are too many clowns around , lets not turn it into a circus...

Now the jt has nothing to do with the OU claims , its all about the cap ...

They may even even stop making those caps a company can be bought off anytime ...

I feel they made a mistake making those ... Good for us !

Now to conclude , for the same amp values you can do more with low amp high voltage then low voltage high amp.

High voltage doesn't act the same way low voltage dose , for charging a cap i prefer hv ...

Just think will a spark gap work on LowV...

Mark:

I agree with you 100%. The volts are more fun anyway and can be made to do quite a bit more than most realize.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 23, 2009, 10:13:20 PM

im hopeing to apply a super highly tuned pickup winding config on the gold ring ...

know any body that has one? lol

i would love 100 feeds at 900vdc rectified .. high freq ... ;D

j or mk1 or st got a good winding ? :D

is

then intrupt the coil with short pulses of the natural running freq.. and watch it piss fire ..

7hz sound good for second stage pulseing .. and if you want more fire ... put a magnet on it .. probally blow the cheep bridges tho

there only 1000v 1a

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on November 23, 2009, 10:18:08 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on November 23, 2009, 07:28:43 PM
@all

Wow , the jt is quite popular these day , but there are too many clowns around , lets not turn it into a circus...

Now the jt has nothing to do with the OU claims , its all about the cap ...

They may even even stop making those caps a company can be bought off anytime ...

I feel they made a mistake making those ... Good for us !

Now to conclude , for the same amp values you can do more with low amp high voltage then low voltage high amp.

High voltage doesn't act the same way low voltage dose , for charging a cap i prefer hv ...

Just think will a spark gap work on LowV...

Your right but, what if you combine a HV low current and a LV high current together to jump the gap. WOW!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 23, 2009, 11:07:17 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on November 23, 2009, 10:13:20 PM
im hopeing to apply a super highly tuned pickup winding config on the gold ring ...
know any body that has one? lol

j or mk1 or st got a good winding ? :D

Ist,
Do you need a better explanation of my MK1jeanna hybrid?
I put it on a post and all kinds of brown stuff started flying around.
I will be happy to answer your questions about it, if you have them.

-----

I really think a lot of people have misunderstood what I have been doing.
I think lidmotor got it.

I am using eensy little toroids 0.5 inch OD, and last week I got 172 volts off it by virtue of the way it was wound.
That big toroid is thousands of times bigger than the 1/2 inch.
And there is the possibility of stacking 2 of them for a fatter toroid.

Lidmotor mentioned the other day, that he was getting 1000 volts from his which has 300 turns and no special winding except orderly and all around, sort of like xee2's when he had 80 turns light a 4" tube. It was only one sparcely wound layer thick!!!!

If you start with 1000v or 2000volts at12khz or 5khz frequency and add inductors in series all down the line, you can use all those volts. The frequency drops as you use the volts, so you do have a limit, but when you start with 1000 volts and 12khz you could light 3 cfls from one battery, and maybe you can do more.

We just need to get some new 90 year old principles into our heads.
If we study books we must study the old ones. I mean the old ones where they were experimenting with pulses and high voltage. Ben Franklin through Tesla.

I believe we are getting too close which is why all the bs has been here in the past couple of days.
I am both encouraged and disgusted by it.

IST, let me know,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on November 24, 2009, 12:56:04 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on November 23, 2009, 11:29:13 PM
Technically Speaking they are not the same . Wikipedia is correct . One has Dialetric and one has electrolyte like a battery . Two DIFFERENT processes! Super and ULTRA

Can you show the quote that states that because the wikipedia pages starts out by saying both terms are interchangeably? Here are a few pages to read,

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090831012511AA8XFwe (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090831012511AA8XFwe)

http://hubpages.com/hub/Ultracapacitors (http://hubpages.com/hub/Ultracapacitors)

Some quotes -->

QuoteQuestion: What's the difference, if any, between an ultracapacitor and supercapacitor?
Answer: No difference, you can use both terms interchangeably. Usually the terms supercapacitor or ultracapacitor refer to Electric Double Layer Capacitors, or EDLC.

QuoteUltracapacitors (aka supercapacitors) are also known as electro chemical double layer capacitors (ELDC).

Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Doug1 on November 24, 2009, 07:57:04 AM

http://hubpages.com/hub/Ultracapacitors
The picture they use to show the construction is very interesting.I do not exactly trust it to be a perfect rendering but it may be a good basic understanding type picture.
Kind of have to wonder if a battery is so limited because thats what sells more batteries.
Are there practical limits to the size of a voltage limiting diode? If you wanted to pull 13 volts and 500 amps dc from a imaginary high voltage imaginary monster of a cap bank that was millions of volts how would do that?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on November 24, 2009, 10:21:41 AM

i wanted to copy this over from the 'joule thief and its derivatives' thread before poynt99 deletes it.

Quote from: poynt99 on November 23, 2009, 09:18:37 PM
You're not making much sense Mk1 ???

Do you have a point or a contribution?

I doubt all folks are as up to speed on the JT as you seem to think you are, and since you're anxious to move forward, study this:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=209

...and this seems to clearly sum up your knowledge of this circuit:
What invention are you referring to? Are you saying that a bcap being charged by a small boost converter circuit is new, novel or worthy of a patent?

Please try to make some rational sense in your posts this point forward, or they'll probably be deleted.

.99

he made total sense. his point is same as the one i brought up... which is, you're not adding anything new to the discussion. at least you haven't yet. all of what you have said has been covered numerous times in the jt thread. maybe you should study it and you wouldn't have to resort to incorrect assumptions like your 'summation' of mk1's knowledge about the circuit... are you saying you have read the thread entirely or are you jumping the gun?

Quote from: -[marco]- on November 24, 2009, 07:00:39 AM
Okay so from what i know, there was a video from a couple of guy's that showed how to build a joule thief.
They showed that with this device it was possible to lite up LED's from a battery, of which terminal voltage was too low to power the LED's directly.
They said the battery was empty.

So it was a device to get the last bit of energy out of a battery by boosting up the voltage...
Just a means to boost up the voltage to power the LED, and they never even made a OU claim what so ever.

Then these JT threads start to pop up on the boards and people are claiming OU from JT circuits....

Marco.

have you actually read the thread marco are you engaging in assumption and conjecture too?
no one to my knowledge has claimed OU in the joule thief thread until now... other than IST, but when isn't IST claiming OU? a lttle less hyperbole and a little more accuracy please.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 24, 2009, 12:03:40 PM

j

for the large unit is where i would like to apply a joint efford form the members here at ou to the output winding .. of the gold ring ..

it must be the least amount of turns for the highest output .. and weather it is centertapped or not is no concern but i would like to put many on it!

but im still hung up on dow ... to get my stuff shipped .. this will ravel out soon ..

i will post some of my coils .. really basic ones in 101 thred

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on November 24, 2009, 04:11:26 PM

Hi guys today I did four led lights as Jeanna said in parallel but I had to wind three around the JT for led lights to show bright. Even the aa battery was charging too thanks to Gadgetmall circuit.
Thanks guys.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 24, 2009, 04:50:07 PM

Quote from: guruji on November 24, 2009, 04:11:26 PM
Hi guys today I did four led lights as Jeanna said in parallel but I had to wind three around the JT for led lights to show bright.

eesh some people are hard to please! ;D
I actually did a study waaay back which was to show how many turns made how much light. There was an overlap of turns and numbers of lights, but 3 turns per light is very good.
If you were to put those lights in series you would need 3-5 turns per light.

QuoteEven the aa battery was charging too thanks to Gadgetmall circuit.

This is so great that you are doing this.

thank you,

Quotefor the large unit is where i would like to apply a joint efford form the members here at ou to the output winding .. of the gold ring ..

of course... and I agree too.

Quote
it must be the least amount of turns for the highest output .. and weather it is centertapped or not is no concern but i would like to put many on it!

I was not sure from your earlier post if you wanted help with the explanation of the mk1jeanna hybrid. If you can understand how I described it, then that is fine.

thank you
jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 24, 2009, 05:33:37 PM

it will need to built for that core ..

but 1 step at a time if everyone has the same cores .. :)

then we can truely perfect it ..

w

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 24, 2009, 07:09:37 PM

Quote from: MrMag on November 23, 2009, 10:18:08 PM
Your right but, what if you combine a HV low current and a LV high current together to jump the gap. WOW!!

yep do not touch it .. i have done this with 2 car batteries ... and i flew a few feet back .. when i got zapped!

so i left it alone ... to powerful for public!

8)

w

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on November 24, 2009, 09:27:17 PM

@all

I new thief from Lidmotor
http://www.youtube.com/user/Lidmotor#p/a/u/0/Q1EwlwLKKYY

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 24, 2009, 10:02:24 PM

Mark:

Thanks. Geeze, there is no way I can ever keep up with Lidmotor. All of his projects are great but I especially love his JT work.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: poynt99 on November 24, 2009, 11:26:15 PM

Bill,

You removed your post before I could quote a portion of it. I was not going to delete it btw. ???

Anyway, I think part of what you said was to go and watch your videos to see the amazing Joule Thief, and in particular the supercaps. This was the argument at the time anyway, that the super and/or ultra-caps were amazing (correct me if I'm wrong) compared to "ordinary" capacitors.

I did what you asked, and I took the time to watch all of your JT videos. Forgive me for asking, but what was it I was supposed to realize or learn by watching them?

.99

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 25, 2009, 12:18:44 AM

poynt
You are supposed to MAKE them!!!

We are experimenters in this group.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 25, 2009, 12:21:35 AM

Hi everybody,

I am watching a verrrry interesting interview.
Anyone interested in what pulsing can do should have a look.
This is an interview of a person doing pulsing experiments in the 50's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfM23rAZTSQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfM23rAZTSQ)
This is about an hour long. I like it better than all the theory happening these days.

enjoy.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: poynt99 on November 25, 2009, 12:38:19 AM

Quote from: jeanna on November 25, 2009, 12:18:44 AM
poynt
You are supposed to MAKE them!!!

We are experimenters in this group.

jeanna

With sincerity, what would be the benefit to me or anyone else if I did build one?

If one knows their multiplication table well, of what benefit is there to try and learn it again?

.99

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 25, 2009, 02:42:46 AM

@ All:

Even the Military is catching on to the JT circuit:

http://mae.pennnet.com/display_article/342401/32/ARTCL/none/none/1/The-Joule-Thief-harvests-vibration-energy-to-power-devices-in-the-field/

That explains the black helicopters, ha ha.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 25, 2009, 03:02:08 AM

Here is a photo of my Lidmotor Jeanna Light replication to date. I am just awaiting the 3.375" toroids. Gadget said that Allelectronics told him they were out of them and would not be getting any more in, ever. If my shipment arrives as scheduled, this may mean I bought the last 4 of them. The single 1.5 volt battery I am planning on using is rated at 14,000 mA hours. This is way more than Lidmotor's 2,300 mA hour battery that ran the cfl for over 36 hours. I anticipate being able to run it much longer than that. We will see.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 25, 2009, 09:31:06 AM

Quote from: poynt99 on November 25, 2009, 12:38:19 AM
With sincerity, what would be the benefit to me or anyone else if I did build one?

If one knows their multiplication table well, of what benefit is there to try and learn it again?

.99

What will YOU do when the Grid GOES DOWN ? BURN Candles ? What if there no sun because something happens ?We experiment to protect our selves and our loved ones . We wont be sitting in the dark. please answer the above questions. I have answered enuff . Its time to make your own ., Weather i win the contes and get STEPHANS money or NOT one thing I will prove . How easy it is now to make a self runner . I have explained in the SSJT thread this comment .

Take it easy and do nothing but calculate ,speculate and aggravate and you will be the one in the dark.. .While us Builders who openly share will be reaping the fruits of our harvest .

@all have a Great Thanksgiving .

Albert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: poynt99 on November 25, 2009, 10:36:29 AM

The Joule Thief is a useful circuit, I do not deny that. For relatively low power devices, it's a great way to utilize all the energy in those so-called "dead" batteries our cameras etc. would have us dispose of early.

Notwithstanding, proper proof or convincing evidence that a JT-charged bacp is OU has not been forthcoming. You may believe you've provided ample proof, but I am telling you with 100% confidence, that you have not.

I welcome anyone to provide their convincing analysis to prove otherwise.

.99

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 25, 2009, 11:02:08 AM

Quote from: poynt99 on November 25, 2009, 10:36:29 AM
The Joule Thief is a useful circuit, I do not deny that. For relatively low power devices, it's a great way to utilize all the energy in those so-called "dead" batteries our cameras etc. would have us dispose of early.

Notwithstanding, proper proof or convincing evidence that a JT-charged bacp is OU has not been forthcoming. You may believe you've provided ample proof, but I am telling you with 100% confidence, that you have not.

I welcome anyone to provide their convincing analysis to prove otherwise.

.99

well you dodged the question as usuall when you asked Jeanna what good was it to BUILD these things that pirate and us build .in the dark is the conclusion all of us see.
and also with 100% confidence you have not shown any proof replication device that its not OU .PERIOD .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on November 25, 2009, 11:15:01 AM

@gadget

How's the video coming along?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: poynt99 on November 25, 2009, 11:27:08 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on November 25, 2009, 11:02:08 AM
well you dodged the question as usuall when you asked Jeanna what good was it to BUILD these things that pirate and us build .in the dark is the conclusion all of us see.
and also with 100% confidence you have not shown any proof replication device that its not OU .PERIOD .

The burden of proof of OU is on YOU since you are the one making the extraordinary claim and applying for the OU prize.

My claim that it is not OU is not extraordinary, it is the "norm".

.99

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 25, 2009, 11:45:48 AM

Quote from: poynt99 on November 25, 2009, 11:27:08 AM
The burden of proof of OU is on YOU since you are the one making the extraordinary claim and applying for the OU prize.

My claim that it is not OU is not extraordinary, it is the "norm".

.99

Prove you claim then . I only will show this to Stephan . it's his contest and money and his web site . Where is your Proof device for your claim "My claim that it is not OU is not extraordinary, it is the "norm". ?
Another question you will Dodge :) :) :) :) :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 25, 2009, 12:09:08 PM

Quote from: poynt99 on November 25, 2009, 11:27:08 AM
The burden of proof of OU is on YOU since you are the one making the extraordinary claim and applying for the OU prize.

My claim that it is not OU is not extraordinary, it is the "norm".

.99

1 device pony 1 device ....

SHOW ME 1 THAT WILL GIVE YOU AMPS ... 110VAC FROM A AA BATTERY .. ?

JUST 1 PONY....

all i want to see is 1

w

im gonna find you a paper and draw you some horse scraches... ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 25, 2009, 01:23:33 PM

@jeanna
here is one of My liitle table Night lights i use and built several weeks ago . It uses one 4.7farad Dynacap .no batteries . i place it under a table lamp for 5 minutes and it produces light for over 27 hours .Funny thing that one light is lit when the supercap is full but as it approaches 1.8 down to .2 volts the transistor(germanium)fires the other two .5watt leds.Strange ?

BTW . yes that's Experiment 1 redo in the background ;)

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 25, 2009, 01:32:33 PM

Gadget:

Very nice cube lights there!! I love those housings.

Hey, just ignore those very few individuals that 1. don't bother to read previous postings, and 2. Never build or replicate anything and test for themselves. It is not worth wasting your time on them. I seriously doubt that they would understand how to build even a simple JT circuit so I am done with any more efforts to try to educate them. They will go away eventually, and they will have learned nothing, and that is a shame, but we can't change that.

Best of luck on the Stefan JT Circuit.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 25, 2009, 01:33:05 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on November 25, 2009, 01:23:33 PM
@jeanna
here is one of My liitle table Night lights i use and built several weeks ago . It uses one 4.7farad Dynacap .no batteries . i place it under a table lamp for 5 minutes and it produces light for over 27 hours .Funny thing that one light is lit when the supercap is full but as it approaches 1.8 down to .2 volts the transistor(germanium)fires the other two .5watt leds.Strange ?

BTW . yes that's Experiment 1 redo in the background ;)

Gadget

I WOULDNT SAY SO ... ;D

your just about to discover something REALLY KOOL! ;)

i have some really advanced tests for you to do gadget!

lol
;)

w

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 25, 2009, 02:13:56 PM

At least i have Light ! here is a few more of 100's of gadgets i have built all because of inspiration from Bill's Jule Thief thred/ there's the first low power jt running 4 light off a rechargeable AAA (been running 24hrs since i built it back in feb-mar)and the one with 7 .5 watts has two solar panels and one dynacap. there is no sun today so shes a bit dim and Dr,Stifflers circuit in a cube :) . I'm working on low power so probably a 9 v on this one and then work my way down to a AAAA or watch battery .you can order the cubes from tapplastics . all the way to a big football and basketball . i also have some liquid lucite and liquid latex i want to encase a few in blocks of lucite plastic . Its perfectly water clear and self degassing so there will be no bubbles in it . The reason i like cubes and lucite is they are LIGHT AMPLIFIERS and diffuse the light on the surfaces .Everybody remembers Fuji mod . that baby runs record time 25 hours!! on one aa rechargable 2800mah . I want to encase the bulb in Lucite to protect it and also pour a base so it don't tip over . I want to build Jeanna's light and put it in lucite also . I have 2 of her rings already but i wanted more. mine are grey . can't wait to make it run on a few Ma's !!!!
GADGET

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 25, 2009, 03:00:10 PM

fara welcome back SIR!

we will get to the verry root of all .. ;)

if we can do it in a respective mannor!

thank you ..

i am willing to teach it .. as is gadget and ALLLLLLLLLL THE OTHERS . ;)

agin welcom back!

w

btw i fully agree with you farra stephan MUST TEST AND PROVE 1000000 % HIS FINDINGS ARE CORRECT!

achive this we move along ...

if not i have 200 other tecks you have no idea of ;)

farra i want you to think when i said my BORG EYE just came online.. AKA K BASE. what might that be ... Ã‰ or in human .. kb storage... Ã‰ it stands for knowalge base!

you need cb to come online ... CREATIVE BASE...

then you can do more than build things you dont understand ;) you can build because you understand! ;)

BTW GADGET I LOVE YOUR DISPLAY OF NON HUMAN TALENT!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: broli on November 25, 2009, 03:25:06 PM

Farrah Day keep it up and you won't be giving your educated rants anymore. I shouldn't waste my breath on this but...

On this forum when someone claims something and is open for replication, then you can do three things.

1) You either replicate and compare data
2) You contribute in any positive manner
3) You SHUT UP and don't get in the way

Unlike some past fools that have come and gone this subject is very open and simple. Noone is trying to con anyone or seeking fame and fortune. So pick one of 3 and do everyone a favor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 25, 2009, 03:39:42 PM

broli

i thank you deeply !

w

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 25, 2009, 03:55:45 PM

Faraday's Post was removed for insulting IST and Gadget and it also contributed nothing positive to the discussion at hand.

Any similar posts by him, or any of the other newcomers, will be treated in a similar manner.

We got through 1,000 pages and more with no problems and now, a few newbies come in here and suddenly I have to moderate. I do not like it and it stops now.

No further warnings will be given.

To the rest of the group, ignore these folks and keep up your good work. I apologize for being away so much for work but, I will try to keep an eye on things here as best I can. We will not have this type of behavior here as is seen on other topics.
Thanks for your patience.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on November 25, 2009, 03:55:48 PM

post deleted by author...
don't feed the trolls :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 25, 2009, 04:05:02 PM

Wilby:

Exactly.

Thank you,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 25, 2009, 04:06:41 PM

i can not blame 1 soul at all we all want to understand why we are here where we came from and how things REALLY WORK..

if you do not wonder i question if you even exsist!

w

thanks bill .. 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on November 25, 2009, 04:14:54 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on November 22, 2009, 12:45:31 PM
So conclusion is three swaps of Bcaps alone reached OU of the run even with the Kitten fumbled experiment 2 part 2 .

That's an interesting experiment-- swapping bcaps. So if you two same bcaps, you use one to charge the other, eventually swap, swap again, etc. Did both of the bcaps end up with more voltage in the end?

Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on November 25, 2009, 04:53:54 PM

Just catching up on these developments now...for some reason the thread notifications stopped, so I fell way behnd.

My congrats to you again gadget...this is one time when I like saying I told you so.

I have a patent comprised of materials build by others before me...it was in the way I arranged everything...no one can ever deny your similarly unique discovery=arrangement of components built by others.

This kind of makes you wonder what could be accomplished with a heavy gauge joule thief.

Also, are they also using bcaps in those quick recharge power tools ?

Its onward and upward from here folks...you can almost smell a change in the air...just hope is isn't another one of Obomba's back passage discharges.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on November 25, 2009, 05:12:33 PM

I do not understand why some of us are placing the resistor at the base; I usually place it prior to the coil, and here's why:

..by reference -->
In gadget's, and many other circuit, I often see the resistor 'tanked' and at the base ( picture 2 ).

In the original early-versioned JTC's the resistor was placed prior to the coil, and a capacitor was bridging from the voltage dropped side of the to ground ( picture 1).

This is just how I've been doping things lately. I realize that with the resistor at the base, the coil is already sitting in the maximum voltage area of the circuit, and any flyback goes back to the positive side, however, with the resistor prior to the coil, any flyback intended to turn the transistor on at the base is then impeded by the resistor at the base.

In picture 1, there is an orange dot, where positive electrical energy builds up allowing better oscillation, I've found that I don't use this unless the coils require it, and this is so, because the majority of the time, with a resistor prior to the coil, the coil has capacitance of it's own accord ( since I mostly use pre-fab paired inductors ). Flyback or cuttoff of the transistor occurs with maximal efficiency and either a greater on or off current occurs as a result of there being NO impedance to the base.

*edit
I'll run some tests to confirm, however I do make a note that I've gotten the circuit to work ( without a resistor at all ). ...the idea being a minimal loss of energy through the B-E junction. Unfortunately, I only have gotten this to work with a specific torroid in a specific circuit.

@Bill, could you give me a link to the Jesus thread about batteries, I'm having trouble finding it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on November 25, 2009, 05:13:32 PM

Hi Jeanna very interesting video of Project Camelot. I'm a novice in electronics but I want to ask about the outer casing of a capacitor;is that connected with the negative pole too cause I build the Jeanna light but this time it's not lighting my leds don't know why?
Still searching.
Pony try to replicate yourself before critisizing. Try build a bedini motor first as I did then move to more complex ones. Then comment on things but be practical.
Thanks Gadgetmall; Jeanna;Pirate;IST and all who's contributing to this.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 25, 2009, 05:17:34 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on November 25, 2009, 01:23:33 PM
@jeanna
here is one of My liitle table Night lights i use and built several weeks ago . It uses one 4.7farad Dynacap .no batteries . i place it under a table lamp for 5 minutes and it produces light for over 27 hours .Funny thing that one light is lit when the supercap is full but as it approaches 1.8 down to .2 volts the transistor(germanium)fires the other two .5watt leds.Strange ?

Hi Gadget,
So, does it follow that I should get 5 hours from a 1F cap?
What is a dynacap?
I have the phillips 1F 5.5v computer memory cap.

I already had my hour of sun for the week and it is a very cool thought that 5 minutes under a table lamp will get this going for so long.
3 leds?

I have the jtc I made for the EB that has the germanium transistor.
I am assuming this will work?

ooo cool of it does.

So, I have a 2" square solar panel I got from you. I just hook up the leads pos to pos so it fills the cap? or is it pos to neg?
Then when the light is off it lights up.
Do you use a switch?

thanks,

jeanna

edit

@guruji

QuoteI want to ask about the outer casing of a capacitor;is that connected with the negative pole too cause I build the Jeanna light but this time it's not lighting my leds don't know why?

I am having trouble with your question/statement.
The outer case of a capacitor??

I am also wondering if the leds are all on the secondary-pickup or if some are still in the basicjtl (I call it the 'thief') position?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 25, 2009, 05:30:50 PM

jadaro

great work ..

please watch this video i used only a 2n2222a transistor it has 60 outputs..

it is a tuned unit on the jt side .. not on the output side .. this coil was sent to new york some time ago ...

ist

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yk-hwnOmzn4

enjoy this is 2 freq basic TRUTH

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: poynt99 on November 25, 2009, 07:26:11 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on November 25, 2009, 01:32:33 PM
It is not worth wasting your time on them. I seriously doubt that they would understand how to build even a simple JT circuit so I am done with any more efforts to try to educate them. They will go away eventually, and they will have learned nothing, and that is a shame, but we can't change that.

Bill

Wow Bill. :-\ Those are serious allegations. I can assure you that understanding how to build a JT is well within the grasp of most folks here, including the ones you believe need educating. I think you can do a little better than that and give some credit where credit is due.

I give credit to all those that have made a JT and learned from it. However, it does not make me any less credible simply because I do not build one myself. Please do not think that the JT is an undiscovered circuit or device. It has existed in several forms for decades. Granted, you and other folks here may have discovered this novel version of it recently, but it is an old established technology (I'll try to find some old patents or design documentation).

The novelty of this variation of this common circuit, is it is small and purposely extracts untapped energy from nearly-spent batteries. There is no magic relating to the spikes that it produces. It does not charge another battery or capacitor (bcap or otherwise) for free. What it DOES DO (and I've stated this already, and it is clearly spelled out in the document I recently posted) is transfer the energy between a source and a load in a more efficient manner than is possible with a straight piece of wire alone.

I learned about this circuit myself almost 25 years ago. I do not need to build one to know that it works, and since I've explained how it works a few times now, it should be somewhat obvious that I already know that also.

.99

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 25, 2009, 07:40:43 PM

99

i know better than to doubt you however the answers that were revieled to me ..

go way beond the jt ...

thats just MY tool to wake you up .. ;)

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 25, 2009, 08:11:11 PM

poynt:

You are not getting it even yet. Yes, we know the JT circuit has been around for a while but supercaps have not. The combination of these two simple devices is what is interesting. If you have not taken the time to try this combination then, I don't really care what it is that you THINK you know, or KNEW, but this is a different ball game.

Also, I would bet money that some of the JT circuits being made here have not "been around for 25 years."

So, either replicate, build and experiment and report your results or go somewhere else where folks enjoy reading that what they are doing is nothing special posted by a guy that has built and shared nothing.

This is not that place.

Respectfully,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: poynt99 on November 25, 2009, 08:17:06 PM

Bill,

Evidently, we're not getting each other. So be it. :)

The proof will be in the pudding as the saying goes, right?

.99

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on November 25, 2009, 08:23:43 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on November 25, 2009, 05:12:33 PM
...
@Bill, could you give me a link to the Jesus thread about batteries, I'm having trouble finding it.

It is not about bateries. It is about feedback to the source. The thing about the batteries is that I charged them with the joule thief circuit and after being charged they had no power to make a small camera to work.
The charge was a ghost charge.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6362.msg158931#msg158931

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 25, 2009, 08:25:42 PM

Quote from: poynt99 on November 25, 2009, 08:17:06 PM
Bill,

Evidently, we're not getting each other. So be it. :)

The proof will be in the pudding as the saying goes, right?

.99

99

please have you done combineing kicks of 2 freqs Ã‰ in a feroite core .. then rectifed them Ã‰

ist if your wondering bout this Ã‰ my question mark is messed up ......

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 25, 2009, 08:42:52 PM

Quote from: poynt99 on November 25, 2009, 08:17:06 PM
Bill,

Evidently, we're not getting each other. So be it. :)

The proof will be in the pudding as the saying goes, right?

.99

Agreed.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on November 25, 2009, 08:48:08 PM

@pirate

Don't sweet over pony paul , they are not even close to be helpful , and tend to twist things , they are really good at it , like professional paid good.

there M.O. is quite familiar to politicians ...

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 25, 2009, 09:19:22 PM

@ All: (And I mean everyone)

Before I forget and it gets away from me....

Happy Thanksgiving to you and your families to all that celebrate this holiday.

Bill

PS Thanks Mark.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 25, 2009, 09:46:38 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on November 25, 2009, 08:48:08 PM
@pirate

Don't sweet over pony paul , they are not even close to be helpful , and tend to twist things , they are really good at it , like professional paid good.

there M.O. is quite familiar to politicians ...

Mark

Mark . I am So sorry my lil ole JT is creating havoc in your new thread . Please come over and lets discuss newer circuits now that we have something that does not store ghost energy . I want to learn how to wind some super chargers .
Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on November 25, 2009, 10:04:02 PM

@Albert

What could i have new to say ?

Nut much , but if i was to try this i would first try to find the best gauge for the jt side (bigger wire ) then try the match them gram for gram , since they will have the same mass and materiel they will share resonance at any freq.

The smaller you go on the secondary side , bigger resistance higher turn ratio for mass , same mass smaller gauge .

I think this will make sure that the current is not lost due to unmatched weight ...

Depending on the winding direction you get different sine wave .

Winding rotation direction , can help setting kick generation (+or-), when working with multiple core.

I hope this will help

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on November 25, 2009, 10:47:00 PM

poynt99, gadget, & all,

The bcap0650 arrived today, and to be honest I'm puzzled over initial experiments. I made the post here,

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3457.msg210996#msg210996 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3457.msg210996#msg210996)

BTW, so far my bcap0650 appears to be in great shape, normal leakage. I bought it through a dealer at ebay for $30, bran new.

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 25, 2009, 11:22:42 PM

Paul:

Thanks for posting that link here, folks need to see this.

When you say "leakage" do you mean of the electrolyte (which we are told is highly poisonous) or just electrical leakage?

You are gonna have fun with that cap Paul.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on November 26, 2009, 12:02:44 AM

It was charged to a bit over 0.4 volts, and so far it's decaying at a very slow rate. So at least the bcap isn't broken. The datasheet shows a typical leakage current of 1.5mA @ 25C after the cap has rested 72 hours.

To be honest, I'm afraid of this cap. It's hard to believe that when fully charged it contains more energy than a AA battery! Have you seen what happens when small electrolytic caps short internally? What would this thing do? It's a bomb. Hey, that would make a nice Mythbuster TV episode.

Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 26, 2009, 12:38:18 AM

Quote from: PaulLowrance on November 26, 2009, 12:02:44 AM
It was charged to a bit over 0.4 volts, and so far it's decaying at a very slow rate. So at least the bcap isn't broken. The datasheet shows a typical leakage current of 1.5mA @ 25C after the cap has rested 72 hours.

To be honest, I'm afraid of this cap. It's hard to believe that when fully charged it contains more energy than a AA battery! Have you seen what happens when small electrolytic caps short internally? What would this thing do? It's a bomb. Hey, that would make a nice Mythbuster TV episode.

Paul

thank you for that statement above .You will be amazed what this does and i see you are being very critical . that is good information and is adding positive information we can all use . also i appreciate your math skills and this one as well:" Bill, Thanks. Stefan's correct that Dr. Stiffler has mentioned this odd effect. If true then you guys made the discovery of all discoveries."
and this one "in that article, it seems like they are assuming the cause is ESR, but I can't see that being the cause because these caps have extremely low ESR, not high, which is evident by the fact (according to the datasheet) that the short circuit current is 3500 amps! 2.7V / 3500A = 0.77 ohms, which is in agreement with the datasheet ESR

Please test it to death and you are right i got this from the manufacture , a friend there . if you charge this cap above 2. 8 volts the cap will start to swell and fire off the screw so look out for the aluminum bullet ! As long as you are being objective i think you will find something out very very interesting that i discovered . O.............K

we appreciate that

Albert .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 26, 2009, 01:02:33 AM

Quote from: PaulLowrance on November 26, 2009, 12:02:44 AM
It was charged to a bit over 0.4 volts, and so far it's decaying at a very slow rate. So at least the bcap isn't broken. The datasheet shows a typical leakage current of 1.5mA @ 25C after the cap has rested 72 hours.

To be honest, I'm afraid of this cap. It's hard to believe that when fully charged it contains more energy than a AA battery! Have you seen what happens when small electrolytic caps short internally? What would this thing do? It's a bomb. Hey, that would make a nice Mythbuster TV episode.

Paul

you know paul thats the hardest i laughted .. in a long time ... i made it to the to be honest part and i broke out laughing ... ok to be honest there were aa few more giggles b4 that but then you got the thing a your afraid of it .... lamo lol ;D :D

mymymy

;D ;D

enjoy..

w

its not a bomb.... its the boom ;D lmao still.....
ya know as in the FREE ENGERY BOOM...

i herd someone talking bout a rail gun there ya go .... lol the cap plugg

perfect myth busters deal ... its about there speed! :D :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on November 26, 2009, 01:29:04 AM

sweet,
i am going to get me one to see what happens during the boom
this is starting to sound kool...
with my current setup i think i could charge this beast in less then a hour
seeing how i can charge a 150uf 450v cap in a few seconds
then boom
maybe even a emp boom..hahahahaha
nah

oh, god i can't wait

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 26, 2009, 01:37:58 AM

I have an addition to my family of fluoro lighting circuits.

I must not be hooking the cfl up correctly.
I can only start to get it but it will not go to the second half of the cfl.
I could only find a 13w cfl, but I cannot think that is the problem

I am not using any caps on this one. This is powerful
My new MK1jeanna hybrid style winding..
But this tube is 15 watts, and I have over 535v this time.
2.3khz
2T,10T>300T
TIP3055
base resistance anywhere from 500-1ohm
this is a good transistor.

jeanna
There is some ambient light but most of the light comes from the tube.

edit
I need to clarify
the gold wire is 26awg which I got from gobrushless. (thanks again, hazens1)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 26, 2009, 01:38:10 AM

btw HAPPY THANKS GIVING TO ALL THAT ENJOY IT NOW..

and kooler

i bet you only do that once... ;D and when a plane falls out of the sky ... and the mib show up

they wont let you out so you can do it agin ... ;) ;D

probally in your best intrest not to talk bout those things ... ;)

w

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on November 26, 2009, 01:54:18 AM

@ ist

oh... roger that

and @ jeanna... very nice setup
i copied your old setup on the 3.38 toroid.. to find that it will charge a cap to 506 volts.. pretty fast
so i might copy this one to try to get the xtra volts with the mk1-jeanna setup

thanks guys

oh... happy turkey day to all

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 26, 2009, 02:33:41 AM

Jeanna:

Great job on the tube lighting! You know, I had the same problem in my one attempt to light a cfl with the Fuji. Plenty of volts as we know but, only 1/2 of the cfl would light...just 50% of the coil. (Like every other row) I checked all of the wiring and connections to the bulb but I never could get it to all go on.

Hopefully, my Jeanna Light replication will go better. maybe we both got some kind of defective cfl? Or possibly we damaged it in some way when taking it apart?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 26, 2009, 02:43:12 AM

got it

HA!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 26, 2009, 04:10:43 AM

Jeanna:

Very good! Now please tell me...how did you fix it?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on November 26, 2009, 07:04:55 AM

Hi Jeanna forget about the capacitor I've changed it but still the problem was there;my parallel leds are not lighting up now after I soldered the circuit. The amazing thing is that on the testing board everthing worked fine ???.
About the winding for the leds not around JT or around secondary should be?
Thanks Jeanna.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on November 26, 2009, 11:05:10 AM

More experiments,
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3457.msg211117#msg211117

Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 26, 2009, 11:07:50 AM

Quote from: jeanna on November 26, 2009, 02:43:12 AM
got it

HA!

AWESOME FL lighter !!looks bright . I believe you can read pretty good with that light . I also cannot wait to wrap one of these .Glad i have two of those cores !! All i can say is . Way to go !!

Happy Turkey Day :)

Albert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on November 26, 2009, 03:37:14 PM

Ok I managed to find the problem about my small toroid for Jeanna lights. One should connect the coil directly to the led bulbs. This time I had to wind more for the leds to light don't know why ???
But the best thing that they lit up.

Hi gagdetmall what protection one should do for that cap not to overcharge in your heater circuit?
Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on November 26, 2009, 03:57:27 PM

@guruji,

We are working on a circuit that will do two things:

1. Top up the input AA battery each time the voltage in that battery
has dropped below a preset level.
2. An automated discharge circuit that discharge the battery capacitor
each time the capacitor reach 2,6 Volt.

I will build and test the above this weekend. I will report any failures or
successes.

Groundloop.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 26, 2009, 04:27:38 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on November 26, 2009, 04:10:43 AM
Jeanna:

Very good! Now please tell me...how did you fix it?

Bill

Do you see those caps n the battery rail?
I forgot that I had tried them with the 48" tube, and after I shut everything off for the night I noticed them.(So everything went back on for that final success of yesterday!!)
2, 47uF regular caps in series across the battery rail.
I was told something about this a while ago that I believe was wrong. The caps in series works and the same 2 caps in parallel with each other do not.
The effect was immediate. It needs no coaxing whatever.
I think Lidmotor and jadaro are on to something similar and I will try it today.
Lidmotor puts 25r at the base and a 20r rheostat in line with the negative battery wire.
[edit lidmotor puts his in the positive side.]
Jadaro puts his in the positive.
They both have complained about heat and this may be from a flyback, but both are getting extremely long battery life = low amps draw. I think Gadget's repeater (tank) at the base resistor is safer, and I am going to check all these out this week.

@guruji

Quoteon the testing board everthing worked fine ???.
About the winding for the leds not around JT or around secondary should be?

There is the capacitance on the board. I often have some reduction in output, but not that much.
You may have popped the leds.
It is also possible that the secondary wires should be reversed.
Even when they work both ways, one way is stronger than the other.
I hope this helps.
Please ask your question again if it does not. I am not sure I understand it.

QuoteOne should connect the coil directly to the led bulbs.

I am not sure what you mean, but yes, wrap the toroid with more turns and connect one end to one side of the leds and the other end to the other end.

I think this is a good place for me to add a video.
100,000 words on the secondary.
later for that.

@all,
Last night, I forgot to read the scope when the system was set.
I only checked with the scope initially. When I saw over 500v when the base resistor was at 1k ohm, I smiled, and put away the scope. But the volts are much higher than 500v.
So, here are the readings and the whole story.

Big unknown toroid 3.38" OD
2T,10T,>300T
TIP3055
70 Ohms at base resistor
895V (!)
2.27Khz
975mH coil inductance
2.51uF coil capacitance

jeanna

EDIT:
EGADS!!!
I was using a 20 watt cfl last night!!
No wonder I was having trouble getting it to start, and needed the battery caps!

So, everything else about the report is right except that it was a 20 watt cfl.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 26, 2009, 08:35:35 PM

your good!

no joke there...

but i always knew that! ;)

great work! J 895v !

now i do wonder mass tuneing ... 1 10 300.. and your freq is 2.xx i now wonder about

dubbling your freq and ballanceing the mass .. there is a harmonic thing going on here ...

369
!st
814

there a tonne of ways this can be used .. 8)

w

with your config of

1 10 300 you could use what you have for that core .. and just match mass

like .5 1 1.5 or any combo there of .. it should not be so freq spesific then ..
or even equal mass across all 3
or run it backward .. 300 pulse coil pull 3 from 1 coil and 6 from another 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 26, 2009, 09:03:36 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTyprZxxza0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTyprZxxza0)

Newest video.
This is a new camera and the sound is terrible.
It gives me sybillant "S's" and hears the toroid scream better than I did.
Oh well.

jeanna's Lidmotor's Jeanna's Light

thank you,

jeanna

Ist, I corrected my mistake... another one. It has 2T not 1T
I am not a good typer! ;D

And to comment on what you say.

I think this tuning you speek of will be a lot easier with a smaller toroid,
AND I really think this arrangement will light a cfl with a smaller toroid, too.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 26, 2009, 09:26:52 PM

Jeanna:

Great video!

My first still camera that I used to shoot my fist videos did that with the sound too.

That light is bright and, if I am not mistaken, that is twice the watts bulb that Lidmotor used. I wish my parts were here already!

Very bright too.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 26, 2009, 09:39:14 PM

GREAT VIDEO J

do you know what you have.. ;D

if you have a neon ...

would you be so kind to see if it lights
and if not.. i may offer a few simple mods ..

if you could make a tuned coil i bet you can harvest ..

ist ;D ;D ;D ;D

btw guys in all the crap i have been through i can still smile everyday!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 26, 2009, 09:48:36 PM

Thanks ist,

Where you you want me to put the neon?

J

@Bill,
Thanks,
Yes, it is twice!
I was still thinking about the 13 part and didn't think of that... twice, wow.
It prefers the 70 ohm at the base too. It looks better with 70 ohms than with 45 ohms.

j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 26, 2009, 09:51:33 PM

i would hold it in you hand and wave it near the bulb is it transmitting .. Ã‰

if it is it will lite ... if it is not .. try 1 wire on cfl ;D

if still no transmittion .. earth ground on 1 part cfl and alum other ...

now you will find wireless with a neon and can tune a coil right off neon ..

;D ;D ;D ;D

ist..

if you do some how get what i describe to operate ... i dont see why you cant tune a bunch of rings .. to the transmitter and grabb all you want ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: broli on November 26, 2009, 10:18:29 PM

Would increasing the output even more be detrimental? For instance by hooking a flyback transformer to the secondary winding, and the secondary of the flyback to the light(s).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: FreeEnergy on November 26, 2009, 10:38:00 PM

check this out!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VuA1GWw0dI

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 26, 2009, 11:06:31 PM

Quote from: broli on November 26, 2009, 10:18:29 PM
Would increasing the output even more be detrimental? For instance by hooking a flyback transformer to the secondary winding, and the secondary of the flyback to the light(s).

Well Broli,
I think this secondary already is a flyback transformer.
It is making almost 1,000 volts from the spikes which are the flyback from the primary, and all of it is happening from the transformer here.
OK Broli, it is time to make one of these.

@ist,
I did get a neon to light by touching either wire of the cfl.
I need more description of this aluminum foil thing.
Maybe a sketch that you photo would help me??

oops I took a pic but forgot to load it into my computer...
I will do that now.
jeanna

edit
As a matter of fact, I get a small light on the neon when I touch either cfl lead, and if I touch the other neon lead, the neon gets much brighter.
See in the pic. I have stuck the one lead of the neon to a wire of the cfl that is under the base, and I am touching the other neon lead.
But this is not transmitting.
This is one wire lighting which is the hallmark of AC according to Tesla.
j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 26, 2009, 11:19:40 PM

ok j

it is clear this will work fine ..

CONGRATS!

we will get to it ..

play around ..

got a pie plateÃ‰

ist! i would recommend disconnecting 1 of the cfl leads and pie plate the other or earth ground ..

if earth ground is used cfl should act as antenna .. if not could use pie plate in place of cfl ..

probally requires earth ground on output.. ie neon... ie your finger.. ;D

i think it is not transmitting cuz your bulb is litt.. :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 26, 2009, 11:24:08 PM

yes.

I am the ground in the pic, right?

It is a pie plate or me as ground, is it not?

j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 26, 2009, 11:29:26 PM

if your bord play with it if not i will do it when im set up to do so .. ;D

it should be easy to transmitt wireless and recieve much more that required to operate the device ..

then it could be a all in 1 unit .. just another way to do it ...

w

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 26, 2009, 11:38:51 PM

Right,
I do need to be at least across the room to call it transmission, don't I?

j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 27, 2009, 12:01:02 AM

ooo i dont think so ...

;D

not if your plan is a portable device ... ;D

6 or 8 inchis is lots ... lol

ist! im sure you have seen the sm17 8) it could be set up in such a mannor ... stacked rings to receive ... 8) transmitt from center ...

have you tryed the neon just around your core .. then imagine the reconnect on npn and pnp in sync.. as the transmitter ... :o :o useing the cores ... and radating outward! i bet you got to bang them really fast for it to spew... lol sounds bad .. but i beleave it to be the case ... lol ;D

:-[

you could get crazy as sm did collect the fly back and put it through the out side collector rings first and use the radiateing antannas to intrupt it or collect from radiaring via tuned loop coils .. and add that with the colpase ... 10 million ways hence why it took me years to get a handle on it ... was NO EASY JOB... :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 27, 2009, 12:49:08 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on November 27, 2009, 12:01:02 AM
ooo i dont think so ...

;D

not if your plan is a portable device ... ;D

6 or 8 inchis is lots ... lol

ist! im sure you have seen the sm17 8) it could be set up in such a mannor ... stacked rings to receive ... 8) transmitt from center ...

I am pretty lost here.
I do think if you stack 2 of these on top of each other you could get 3 times the power, but I do not think we are talking about the same thing.

Quote
have you tryed the neon just around your core ..

Yes, and nothing happened here.
A long time ago, I was trying to light a neon on a coil core and the neon would only light when it was in a certain place. I was convinced it was transmitting a lot.

Quote
you could get crazy as sm did collect the fly back and put it through the out side collector rings first and use the radiateing antannas to intrupt it or collect from radiaring via tuned loop coils .. and add that with the colpase ... 10 million ways hence why it took me years to get a handle on it ... was NO EASY JOB... :)

I am sorry, ist.
I just do not know enough about this to be able to follow what you are saying.
BUT wait a year...
If I learn as much this coming year as I did last year, I will surely be able to follow what you are saying. :)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 27, 2009, 12:52:58 AM

dont worry i got me all winter to build so i will build this too

much can be learned from simple tests ..

and your so good at them

william

freq maybe too low ... or air core or plastic im sure better results are gained ..

but fast enough freq on a 1 inch it will spew and then you still get big spikes that get sent through collectors

J what bout a magnet .... :D :D :D :D on the core ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on November 27, 2009, 12:56:14 AM

:)Hello All...

I experimented with an EER made with 1x copper pipe 19.75 inch long driven into ground
and 1x thin solid steel rod 19.75 inch long driven into ground, I tried distances of 40 feet, 21 feet,
10 feet, 3 feet, 2 inhes between the + and -
results were the best at around 20-21 feet with highest current mA's Not sure why though !

Also I have a small array of 7 EER cells connected in series and added 2 more to equal 9 total,
I have been charging a 55 Farad 2.5v super cap for approx 18 hours and my super cap shows...
4.02 Amps at .657 volts DC, but when connected to DMM, the cap runs down in mA's quickly,
how do you stop the mA's from running out of cap so quickly - because I would like to use it
on my Joule-Thief

Or is it better to leave the cap connected permanently to the EER array and connect the Joule Thief
to the cap...meaning the EER will keep charging the cap while i'm using the cap in the Joule Thief ?

Could someone point me in the right direction please

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 27, 2009, 01:02:16 AM

welcome ...

intresting

look to wood henge... ;)

i bet i know ... you need rings... .. of them at harmonics ..

use the golden spiral .. place rods at nodes .. . in 2 locations useing oppsite spirals inward and outward ...

verry much like my sign

ra!

yes i have solved those things some what too....

i have become addicted to solveing and building things ...

damm near time to get a relationship ...

naw.... single is ok ... :)

w

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 27, 2009, 01:10:28 AM

Quote from: freepow on November 27, 2009, 12:56:14 AM

...
I have been charging a 55 Farad 2.5v super cap for approx 18 hours and my super cap shows...
4.02 Amps at .657 volts DC, but when connected to DMM, the cap runs down in mA's quickly,
how do you stop the mA's from running out of cap so quickly - because I would like to use it
on my Joule-Thief
...

freepow,
Are you actually trying this on your joule thief?
Maybe when you get it on one it won't run it down much at all.

As long as you get over 1 volt, in that cap, you can probably use a jt for a while.
I would aim for 1.1v
That way you can use the secondary .
The leds will glow albeit dimmly with 4 mA, but in a joule thief it will seem brighter.

But to use the secondary you will need around 1.1volts.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 27, 2009, 01:16:05 AM

if you wanted to get really mental .. and do it right ... match and tune the rods ...

and look the hell out!

could be deadly powerful ...

it aint the golden spiral for nuttin .... :o :o :o :o

this is a verry delicat tuneing process... useing dissimilar metals .. to make a potencial diff.. between 2 points ... same is done with teslas cosmic rays... earth ground and elevated tower..

of curse i understand this ... as will everyone .... 8) 8) 8) 8)

here is a verry easy process you can use based upon what you have found out already with your most execlant tests!

you found that 19.75 inch long of 2 rods gives you 1 v say ... at a distance of 21.xx feet .. so

match masses of each then devide by harmonics according to the gs .. be sure to place at the right distance for the length of the rod and in proper dirrections .... here you become a HERO ...

NOBODY HAS DONE THIS .. that im aware of and i most likely never will its your baby if you want it ... think how the stones and the wood relate in stone and wood henge .. and the distasnce between them .. it is a damm fine tuned unit .. that has come to pass.. it nolonger works ..
however this has all ready been considered b4 humans came along ... ;)

no worrie lol

;D ;) ;) ;)

this is a finely tuned unit ... just like teleportation .... just like a human .. imagine ... ALL CREATION IS BASED ON THE GOLDEN SPIRAL...

2 of em make a merkaba ... a subatomic gyro particle wich i can devide in 2 and relocate ...

same as it ever was ... same soul i ever was ... same soul you ever were ... lol

magic... no ... THE BOOK OF LOVE. ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 27, 2009, 10:26:47 AM

i guess now we understand what creation is now ...

it is 1 ... :) 8) with you ...

this explains all that is 8)

ist!

this now explains why my pnp and npn is powerfull .. :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 27, 2009, 01:58:41 PM

@ All:

I am pissed!!!! I just received my order today from All Electronics and, in the box was my wire, pots, battery holders, etc....everything EXCEPT the 3/38" Toroids!!!!!!!

I received an order confirmation and also a shipping confirmation that said everything was on it's way but, the packing slip says they are "out of stock" on these toroids and that I was not charged for them.

So, now my mission is to locate another source which I will do as soon as I get a chance. If anyone out there already has found another source, please share it. IF I locate one, I will post it here. Maybe the good news is that if another source is located, maybe we will get known specs on them.

Looks like my Jeanna Light replication is now on hold...

Oh well, life goes on.

First the B-caps get bought up and now these toroids....hmmm...I wonder if we are having an effect on the marketplace out there.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 27, 2009, 02:21:36 PM

this is not fair ...

to anyone ...

good thing im an inventor ... i released my medum power unit design ... basic ...

so they would fly away ..

so we can continue on the tiny coils ... but im not likeing the way they choose to use my devices ...

there GOOD FIRE FLYS .... AND BAD ONES ...... I CONTROL BOTH ... ;)

W

I HOPE IT IS THE EXPAIRMENTERS BUYING THEM.... but gadget selling all those caps .. the day i anounced it .. that is un fair ... nobody buys that many ... unless they are in production .. and that would be a good indication THIS IS ALL VERRY REAL....

im guessing ... someone ran a test B4 i could get gadget to do it ... realized it was FACT and bought almost all of them ...

lets build A SMALLER UNIT ... HOW SMALL CAN WE GET THOSE CAPS ... THE SAMEONES..

then its 40 bucks to make .. we will just run it higher speed. ;D

SO THE MONEY GUYS THOUGHT THEY WERE SMART ... lol i guess someone has some money tied... oops... ;)

GADGET HAS A TONNE OF 1 INCH GOLDMINES.. ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 27, 2009, 02:42:30 PM

This looks like a possible source:

https://www.amidoncorp.com/categories/7

In looking at the "43" material (whatever that is) I can get a 2.9" OD X 1.53" ID X .500 Thick for $15.00 ea. That item is on this page: https://www.amidoncorp.com/items/13

They also have a 3.5" OD in the "61" material for $45 ea. (ouch)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 27, 2009, 02:53:00 PM

A side note in my research... here is a power simulator to use to select the core material for your toroid winding applications:

http://www.poweresim.com/index.jsp

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 27, 2009, 03:06:32 PM

a quote from the supplyer of the big cores i have .. from your link bill

ty btw ... great page!

2009-10-22: Micrometals new low loss materials are now open to public.

magnetics notice Q speed.. ;) another sponcer..

who is good with companies...

WE NEED DONATED MATERIALS TO A GREEN ENGERY SOULTION ... I BET THE CO. COULD GET A WRITE OFF FOR IT .. ;)

could be donated to OVERUNITY.COM... then desprised to the reserchers ..

and in return the sponcer will aquire a working device... as a gift ...

same deal with the U CAPS ..

I BET GM OR HONDA IS ALL OVER IT ...... ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D

HISTORY IS WRITTEN .... you only need to read to discover ... :D for the short version of history ... refer to page 1 of this thred... for the long version ... start with what is written in stone..... ;D :o

cant wate for the rest to get all the credit that is do to them as well !

thank you!

a quote from magnetics III page say i yi yi lol 8)

MagneticsÂ® is a leading world supplier of precision soft magnetic components and materials to the electronics industry. We specialize in research, design, and production of a broad range of high-quality powder cores, ferrite cores, and strip wound cores for applications such as chokes, inductors, filters, transformers, and power supply components for use in alternative energy, telecommunications, aerospace, automotive, military, computer, medical, and other electronics systems.
News
Competitor Cross Reference Tool
( 11/23/2009 ) : Get the most up to date competitor cross reference information with Magneticsâ€™ easy to use Competit ...
New 4 Inch Kool Mu Toroid
( 10/20/2009 ) : Magnetics has expanded its line of large Kool MÂµÂ® toroids. With an O.D. of 4 inches ...
All News
Newsletter Signup:

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 27, 2009, 03:44:53 PM

@ IST:

Thank you.

@ All:

Here is a report on how to assess unknown toroids:

http://www.alan.melia.btinternet.co.uk/toroids.htm

Good info here on which type to use for which applications.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 27, 2009, 04:16:23 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on November 27, 2009, 01:58:41 PM
@ All:

I am pissed!!!! I just received my order today from All Electronics and, in the box was my wire, pots, battery holders, etc....everything EXCEPT the 3/38" Toroids!!!!!!!

I received an order confirmation and also a shipping confirmation that said everything was on it's way but, the packing slip says they are "out of stock" on these toroids and that I was not charged for them.

So, now my mission is to locate another source which I will do as soon as I get a chance. If anyone out there already has found another source, please share it. IF I locate one, I will post it here. Maybe the good news is that if another source is located, maybe we will get known specs on them.

Looks like my Jeanna Light replication is now on hold...

Oh well, life goes on.

First the B-caps get bought up and now these toroids....hmmm...I wonder if we are having an effect on the marketplace out there.

Bill

BIll they are available from the micrometals / magnetics manufactures distributor www.mag-inc.com . they have the exact grey torroid you need . Includingthat big one i got .
Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 27, 2009, 04:17:52 PM

Thank you Gadget, I appreciate that.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 27, 2009, 04:38:47 PM

Hi everybody,

@Ist,
Is magnetics the company you found and ordered from the other day?

I actually think we did have something to do with this. When lidmotor "published" allelectronics on youtube as where I got the biggo I was glad I had bought more than one.
It did come from magnetics, but there is no info that came with it.

@Bill and all
I cannot follow the reasoning with any of that formula so I will wrap mine with 8 turns and let you know what I find out, as that will be the 'A' value.
or
Maybe an email to allelectronics will answer the specs question.?? ?? I hope.

I do not think the 3.38 inches is the necessary part.
I know the voltage does not need to be 985v!!
It only needs to be above 450v,
and I got 411v with a one inch toroid this summer and lit a 4w 4" tube.
So, please no despair ...yet.

I think most of the effect has to do with the better transistor.
I just got home and I will be doing some tests on different toroids with this transistor, and the tip31 which both xee2 and stprue have used to make high voltage circuits.
So, I will report.
EVERYTHING seems to be closed now, anyway. No shipping til monday, my bank's computer has been down for 3 days so no money ... All I can do now is play. :D

jeanna

edit
@Gadget,
This is great!!
Please tell me some kind of catalogue number so I can cross reference.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 27, 2009, 05:19:33 PM

@ Pirate88179 & jeanna

There is a lot if information on the toroid at the manufacturers web site but you do have to hunt around for it.

http://www.mag-inc.com/

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 27, 2009, 05:33:28 PM

Thanks xee2,
I was there yesterday, but I was unable to find a starting point of reference.
The tor-60 was not one of their numbers, because they discontinued it, and the dimensions 3.38" are no longer used for the same reason, and I don't have enough info to start.

You were the person who wrote way back what the mu value for this toroid is.
I did not save that,

I am glad you have shown up today.
What is the mu value for that bog toroid?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: broli on November 27, 2009, 05:38:28 PM

I just built a joule thief with these specs

pnp c327 transistor
5kOhm resistor
2cm OD toroid core from microwave oven
primary: 11 windings for JT
secondary: 21 double stranded wire windings hooked in bifilair way

I don't have a LED across the transistor since I only have one and I hooked it to the secondary.

The result when I hook a 1.5V battery is that the LED lights up but not as brightly as I have seen from other people. But this is an initial working setup since the first failure I had. This circuit is quite touchy and everything needs to have the correct parameters to get the most out of the LED, but how those parameters relate is beyond me.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 27, 2009, 05:49:27 PM

i have a spec sheet some where for the core i used ...

5 turns .. was tuneing for the 140mm i will post a pic when i find it ..

w

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on November 27, 2009, 05:49:43 PM

This is a repost from page 478 .

@all

I hope this will help !

First thing tuning, on step one the green coil is put on tight leaving room so that two other coil (for the jt)can be added 180 degrees
apart, the green coil needs to be connected to a diode bridge to get voltage readings .

On step 2 , you start adding jt coils one at a time and check voltmeter every time you put more turns , that way you see the difference it makes continue adding turns until the voltage on the voltmeter start going lower, this will mean you have reached the point where you start messing up with the turn ratio , meaning you add more you get lower voltage.

On more step i do is every time i change the jt numbers of turn i also tune the base resistor , usually a pot of 1k is used, you try to get the highest voltage on the voltmeter . i also keep the voltage data and the resistance at the base by checking the resistance used by the pot in the circuit.

At this point you will know that you have the right number of turns on the jt coil, and the green coil number of turns fitting in the toroid,.

At that point based on results decide to use smaller gauge the get more turns and higher voltage .

You will also have a good idea on the toroid working range.

To make a good design , you need to learn about the toroid first at this point you should have a good idea about doing so.

Step 3 , Start putting pickup coil on the toroid, you need to put the coil on both sides going one way and leave wire to come back over the coil the other way on step 4.Making a cross windings.

If you want more pickup coil , you need to put them all at the same time , so make sure to remember the green coil for the room available .

Lets say 20 turns fit , then on a mk1 you should have about 20 up then 16 down , mk2 having 2 pickup coils on each side numbers would be 10 up 6 down , you get the idea.

When you need more then 3 pickup coil , twist all those wire into a single one then do it all at once.

Now why the cross windings , you will then have the coil pushing and pulling , you can test it with a led that will now light both ways , it also helpful in charging caps.

I hope did not forget to much, i would really make a video but , i really don't have any money to buy a camera
, and none of my friends have one, but honestly most of my time and energy is on putting food in my stomach.

Mark

How to test dead spots use a single turn pickup coil , then connect it to a bridge and voltmeter and move it around the empty space left on the toroid , if you find a spot where there is no voltage that is a dead spot.

Edit ist made one watch http://www.youtube.com/user/innovationstation#p/u/22/Jiodkjo9hpk

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: broli on November 27, 2009, 05:59:21 PM

Thanks Mk1 that will be helpfull.

Btw I just hooked the LED across the transistor and it was brighter, I got too excited and added a 1.5V battery in series. It gave a bright flash and my only LED died ;D .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 27, 2009, 06:01:29 PM

Quote from: jeanna on November 27, 2009, 04:38:47 PM
Hi everybody,

@Ist,
Is magnetics the company you found and ordered from the other day?

I actually think we did have something to do with this. When lidmotor "published" allelectronics on youtube as where I got the biggo I was glad I had bought more than one.
It did come from magnetics, but there is no info that came with it.

@Bill and all
I cannot follow the reasoning with any of that formula so I will wrap mine with 8 turns and let you know what I find out, as that will be the 'A' value.
or
Maybe an email to allelectronics will answer the specs question.?? ?? I hope.

I do not think the 3.38 inches is the necessary part.
I know the voltage does not need to be 985v!!
It only needs to be above 450v,
and I got 411v with a one inch toroid this summer and lit a 4w 4" tube.
So, please no despair ...yet.

I think most of the effect has to do with the better transistor.
I just got home and I will be doing some tests on different toroids with this transistor, and the tip31 which both xee2 and stprue have used to make high voltage circuits.
So, I will report.
EVERYTHING seems to be closed now, anyway. No shipping til monday, my bank's computer has been down for 3 days so no money ... All I can do now is play. :D

jeanna

edit
@Gadget,
This is great!!
Please tell me some kind of catalogue number so I can cross reference.

thank you,

jeanna

here are the coated toroids from magnetic . you cave to convert mm to inches http://www.mag-inc.com/products/ferrite_cores/toroids

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on November 27, 2009, 06:02:57 PM

@all

I also know this now ...

What could i have new to say ?

Nut much , but if i was to try this i would first try to find the best gauge for the jt side (bigger wire ) then try the match them gram for gram , since they will have the same mass and materiel they will share resonance at any freq.

The smaller you go on the secondary side , bigger resistance higher turn ratio for mass , same mass smaller gauge .

I think this will make sure that the current is not lost due to unmatched weight ...

Depending on the winding direction you get different sine wave .

Winding rotation direction , can help setting kick generation (+or-), when working with multiple core.

I hope this will help

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 27, 2009, 06:21:47 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on November 27, 2009, 06:02:57 PM
@all

I also know this now ...

What could i have new to say ?

Nut much , but if i was to try this i would first try to find the best gauge for the jt side (bigger wire ) then try the match them gram for gram , since they will have the same mass and materiel they will share resonance at any freq.

The smaller you go on the secondary side , bigger resistance higher turn ratio for mass , same mass smaller gauge .

I think this will make sure that the current is not lost due to unmatched weight ...

Depending on the winding direction you get different sine wave .

Winding rotation direction , can help setting kick generation (+or-), when working with multiple core.

I hope this will help

Mark

I always work on lowest miilamp input .Mark, being were flashing to the past maybe post the best cap charger you made . this is second stage Level two . how fast can we charge LARGE super /ultra caps .
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on November 27, 2009, 06:43:22 PM

@gadget

You know it ...

Many turns on the jt side usually reduces the amp needed, i think the longer they are more chances to trap some energy within the coil between kick .

When i us the short ones is to make insure that the will be flushed out.
I believe that way the kick is not slowed down from the slow emptying of the longer ones .

So i do it to get a clearer kick.

I hope this makes sense to you .

I did get really low mili amps input on both types .

Now the same mass issue , you have the two jt coils kicking , how much energy can be stored in a coil(like a cap) the secondary needs to have the same potential , to minimize the losses .

That could be done many ways but the coils are from the same material and same weight , will have the same natural resonant response at any freq .

Like guitar strings tuned together pick one the other will move , if you had 2 exact same diameter strings you can tune them to any note pick one and the other will react much more violently , you get the idea ?

I still have not used your tank circuit .

I study coils for now ,lol i will get to other stuff like trany and circuit soon.

Mark

The kick is the same but the the loses form the secondary close to eliminated .

Edit btw i don't super caps or any thing close to it , but any cap will do.

you test for speed , smaller cap help wit faster evolution waiting over 10h to get results is my thing , but i can also compare the secondary output compared to the pickup .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 27, 2009, 06:53:16 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on November 27, 2009, 05:33:28 PM
Thanks xee2,
I was there yesterday, but I was unable to find a starting point of reference.
The tor-60 was not one of their numbers, because they discontinued it, and the dimensions 3.38" are no longer used for the same reason, and I don't have enough info to start.

You were the person who wrote way back what the mu value for this toroid is.
I did not save that,

I am glad you have shown up today.
What is the mu value for that bog toroid?

thank you,

jeanna

Part number for the 3.38" diameter toroid is: OW48613TC which is their W material.

Most of the data I have was in the design guide which use to be at following URL (but now must have a different address for a new guide). This is the old URL which does not work now for me: http://www.mag-inc.com/ferrites/fc601.asp

Here is some data:

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on November 27, 2009, 07:04:44 PM

Next step in basic jt true ringing .

Find a core made for metal ring , not any toroid shape !

You hang it from a string then hit it with something hard , if it doesn't make a sound you can hear then find another one for now .

One you got one connect a microphone to your scope , find the ring freq.

Built the jt with that precise freq in mind , then ring it !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 27, 2009, 07:07:50 PM

love it ! ;D

well said! ;D

ist!

mk1 you realize im gonna have to make a video of this now ... lol

i was just given a 1000 foot spool of 14ga solid coated green wire .. i have like 40 of those steel cores .. i will bang 1 and do as you reccomend ...

;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 27, 2009, 07:55:14 PM

First...
Thank you xee2.
I have a hard time with it being a w because that is a high permeability, but mine was doing well at 2.27khz which was yesterday's video, and as your table tells, that IS high permeability...

It is strange this conflict in assertions of permeability between you and MK1. You both have good reasons, and you both have results, based on your reasons.

Maybe the permeability doesn't matter as much as the transistor. See below.

@MK1
Thank you for reposting that. It is a good method. Did you also post it on the 101 thread for beginners?

@All,
I made some tests today.
[I knew I had a strange 2N3055. It was reversed from the beginning. The higher number of turns should be on the collector coil but on this my first hand wound fluoro tube lighting circuit, it was reversed.

I must have very funny component karma. ;D]

So, the other day I bought a TIP3055 from radio shack.
It was this that I used yesterday to light the cfl for my first time and achieved 895v at 2.27khz frequency.

I re-tried the core with the red 240T from last spring but before even starting, I made the turns 2T,10T like yesterday's

It lit the cfl immediately with 240T, so I knew it was the transistor at fault for the struggle last spring.

Then I began to tune the 240T core. I reduced from 10 to 9,8,7, and at 6T the voltage on the red 240T was 1040volts !!!!!!!

So, then I went back to the gold one which has over 300T and again I reduced the collector turns from 10 to 9. The volts went to 1439v.
This could harm my scope, so I put it away, and I reduced the collector coil turns to 8 then 7 and tried to light things.
The cfl doesn't stop flickering. I may need to solder this, because at this kind of volts there is bound to be sparklers. I can feel the tingle when my hand touches a probe directly.
At 7T and 6T, I tried to light that big 48" tube. It didn't light, but both ENDS lit up immediately and, it got to about 12 inches from the one side with the help of my hand and the magnet trick. Nothing got it to light. This is 36w and will probably light when I have 1900v-2000v
A 105 cap at the base seems to be the best frequency for the resistor resonance.

I will try out the open office spreadsheet and make a table of this for you.
I was in a happy hurry, but I will return.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 27, 2009, 08:04:15 PM

yikes

we cant just rise ... WE GOT TO SHINE TOOO ;D

i see a bright light shineing ... ;D

awesome!

w

1439V OMG! wow somthing tells me they are gonna charge super fast those caps ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 27, 2009, 08:16:32 PM

Jeanna:

I remember when you said, not too long ago I might add, that you wanted to hand wind a toroid that would equal or better the legendary Fuji circuit.

Well, at 1439 volts, I do believe you have beat it with a stick!!!!!!!!!!

Let's see, Fuji...about 350 volts or so.....

Jeanna's coil...1439 volts.

Yes, I would say that you have exceeded your goal, ha ha. Very nice work there Jeanna! I will drink a toast to your success when I go off surveillance duty later this evening.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on November 27, 2009, 08:31:44 PM

@all

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uN-yNgtt4c

Its a must see from lidmotor again a new one.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 27, 2009, 08:36:51 PM

Mark:

He does some fantastic work doesn't he? I could never keep up with that guy.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: broli on November 27, 2009, 08:38:16 PM

Quote from: jeanna on November 27, 2009, 07:55:14 PM

This could harm my scope, so I put it away, and I reduced the collector coil turns to 8 then 7 and tried to light things.

Forgive my ignornca but what if you used a high voltage capacitor combined with a high voltage diode both from a microwave oven to measure these high voltages? If this works you could calibrate this by measuring a safer voltage with the scope and capacitor and compare numbers.

Quote from: Mk1 on November 27, 2009, 08:31:44 PM
@all

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uN-yNgtt4c (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uN-yNgtt4c)

Its a must see from lidmotor again a new one.

Tuning inductance in realtime like that is super handy.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 27, 2009, 08:54:01 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on November 27, 2009, 08:16:32 PM
...
Let's see, Fuji...about 350 volts or so.....
Jeanna's coil...1439 volts.

Yes, I would say that you have exceeded your goal, ha ha. Very nice work there Jeanna! I will drink a toast to your success when I go off surveillance duty later this evening.

Thank you Bill,
Do you really think the fuji is 350v?
We need at least 450v to light a tube. I think there must be higher spikes than 350v in that camera circuit.

I am wondering about this 48" tube of yours, though. What is making this light go on?

I have been wondering how to add the final cap as the fuji circuit has.
I am wondering if this is how you can light the higher wattage tube??

===
I just tried the little MK1-Jeanna hybrid#2 which lit the string 'o leds the other day.
The voltage on that one is not as high with the TIP3055 as it is with the 2N3904.

But the part I am finding REALLY interesting is that the 'ring' amount of base resistance appears to be more specific to the transistor than the core or the winds on the core.

The TIP3055 ring base resistor amount is in the neighborhood of 50ohms.
So, no matter what core I am using, the best results come from a base resistor at about 50 ohm.
It happens that this is not the best frequency for the little high frequency core, but it is the best this transistor can do.

@Broli... don't worry about this stuff for now.
I am sorry to hear about your only led, but it is actually good news, sort of.

Did you mean to use a pnp?
Most of us are using a npn which are cheaper and more generally available.
Radio shack sells a pack of rather decent assorted colored leds for a few bucks.
Of course it is now the time you can get cheap led christmas light strings. I don't think they are better or easier to use, but depending on where you live, they may be more available.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on November 27, 2009, 09:10:36 PM

Quote from: jeanna on November 27, 2009, 07:55:14 PM
First...
Thank you xee2.
I have a hard time with it being a w because that is a high permeability, but mine was doing well at 2.27khz which was yesterday's video, and as your table tells, that IS high permeability...

It is strange this conflict in assertions of permeability between you and MK1. You both have good reasons, and you both have results, based on your reasons.

Maybe the permeability doesn't matter as much as the transistor. See below.

@MK1
Thank you for reposting that. It is a good method. Did you also post it on the 101 thread for beginners?

@All,
I made some tests today.
[I knew I had a strange 2N3055. It was reversed from the beginning. The higher number of turns should be on the collector coil but on this my first hand wound fluoro tube lighting circuit, it was reversed.

I must have very funny component karma. ;D]

So, the other day I bought a TIP3055 from radio shack.
It was this that I used yesterday to light the cfl for my first time and achieved 895v at 2.27khz frequency.

I re-tried the core with the red 240T from last spring but before even starting, I made the turns 2T,10T like yesterday's

It lit the cfl immediately with 240T, so I knew it was the transistor at fault for the struggle last spring.

Then I began to tune the 240T core. I reduced from 10 to 9,8,7, and at 6T the voltage on the red 240T was 1040volts !!!!!!!

So, then I went back to the gold one which has over 300T and again I reduced the collector turns from 10 to 9. The volts went to 1439v.
This could harm my scope, so I put it away, and I reduced the collector coil turns to 8 then 7 and tried to light things.
The cfl doesn't stop flickering. I may need to solder this, because at this kind of volts there is bound to be sparklers. I can feel the tingle when my hand touches a probe directly.
At 7T and 6T, I tried to light that big 48" tube. It didn't light, but both ENDS lit up immediately and, it got to about 12 inches from the one side with the help of my hand and the magnet trick. Nothing got it to light. This is 36w and will probably light when I have 1900v-2000v
A 105 cap at the base seems to be the best frequency for the resistor resonance.

I will try out the open office spreadsheet and make a table of this for you.
I was in a happy hurry, but I will return.

jeanna

Jeanna

Iam glad to see that the TIP3055 helped

About lighting the 48
WIth that kind of voltage I can't imagine that you need more .
I think you need more current to light the tube.

You mentioned several other JT coils ....... try connecting the secondarys of a couple of those coils to the output of the JT you are using .
The coils should be in series ...... connect the secondarys just as if they were the power lines going to your load .

If your secodarys are good sized they should choke your output voltage some ..........but give you more current .
When I do this with my LED array the voltage goes down but the LEDs get brighter .
If you want to limit the voltage more .......connect the primarys of those coils for feedback .
CHances are good that if you connect both of the directly for feedback you will kill the output .....you may need to add a cap in in series with one of the feedback loops.

check the output when you connect the feedback ........once in a whille it jumps way up .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 27, 2009, 09:18:01 PM

Quote from: jeanna on November 27, 2009, 07:55:14 PM
First...
Thank you xee2.
I have a hard time with it being a w because that is a high permeability, but mine was doing well at 2.27khz which was yesterday's video, and as your table tells, that IS high permeability...

It is strange this conflict in assertions of permeability between you and MK1. You both have good reasons, and you both have results, based on your reasons.

Maybe the permeability doesn't matter as much as the transistor. See below.

@MK1
Thank you for reposting that. It is a good method. Did you also post it on the 101 thread for beginners?

@All,
I made some tests today.
[I knew I had a strange 2N3055. It was reversed from the beginning. The higher number of turns should be on the collector coil but on this my first hand wound fluoro tube lighting circuit, it was reversed.

I must have very funny component karma. ;D]

So, the other day I bought a TIP3055 from radio shack.
It was this that I used yesterday to light the cfl for my first time and achieved 895v at 2.27khz frequency.

I re-tried the core with the red 240T from last spring but before even starting, I made the turns 2T,10T like yesterday's

It lit the cfl immediately with 240T, so I knew it was the transistor at fault for the struggle last spring.

Then I began to tune the 240T core. I reduced from 10 to 9,8,7, and at 6T the voltage on the red 240T was 1040volts !!!!!!!

So, then I went back to the gold one which has over 300T and again I reduced the collector turns from 10 to 9. The volts went to 1439v.
This could harm my scope, so I put it away, and I reduced the collector coil turns to 8 then 7 and tried to light things.
The cfl doesn't stop flickering. I may need to solder this, because at this kind of volts there is bound to be sparklers. I can feel the tingle when my hand touches a probe directly.
At 7T and 6T, I tried to light that big 48" tube. It didn't light, but both ENDS lit up immediately and, it got to about 12 inches from the one side with the help of my hand and the magnet trick. Nothing got it to light. This is 36w and will probably light when I have 1900v-2000v
A 105 cap at the base seems to be the best frequency for the resistor resonance.

I will try out the open office spreadsheet and make a table of this for you.
I was in a happy hurry, but I will return.

jeanna

Sweet Jeannas ! oww. I must know exactly how this one works . I have all night to myself tonight and i want to Wind / three" first . I'll go with what you Pm'ed me and reduce to 6?
Albert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 27, 2009, 09:23:23 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on November 27, 2009, 09:10:36 PM
Jeanna

I am glad to see that the TIP3055 helped

About lighting the 48
WIth that kind of voltage I can't imagine that you need more .

Right, but it is twice the wattage (36w) I have been lighting (20w). So, It might be reasonable, but I think it needs a pop like the camera circuits, and it doesn't need it to continue.
It IS going on for the end 12 inches of 1 side and the 2 inches on the other side. - until I let go ;)

These large tubes need a ballast to start up when used in the mains.
[anyway, that was my thinking, --- something like a ballast.]

QuoteYou mentioned several other JT coils ....... try connecting the secondarys of a couple of those coils to the output of the JT you are using .
The coils should be in series ...... connect the secondarys just as if they were the power lines going to your load .

I will try this. It makes sense to me.
The feedback has never made sense so I will skip it for now.

Thanks for those suggestions. I will try them and report back.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 27, 2009, 09:24:59 PM

i have managed to spinn my a$$ in gear... lol

getting the shop set up .. the construction s not all done but what ever ..

time to build darn soon... just dusted off the scope and im a fire up the comp coil tool...

and the first GREEN ENGERY DONATION ROLLED IN THE DOOR some green wire..

i expect to be up and fully funtionable tomorrow ...

get tee up! :D

w

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 27, 2009, 09:57:04 PM

Gary it didn't help.

I just calculated the difference in the cubic inches of gas that must light up and the difference in these 2 tubes is a lot.

36w 4 ft tube
1.38 diameter x 47 in long =
0.69*0.69=0.4761*3.14=1.49 in area*47"length=70 cu inches.

growlight
1 inch diameter. x 17 in length=
0.5*.5=.25 in *3.14=.785*17=13.345 cu inches

So there is 5 1/4 times as much gas to heat and vibrate in the 47 incher as there is in the 17 inch grow light.
I bet I am igniting the same amount of gas. The ends glow bright and about 12 inches.

I just calculated one 5 1/4 th of the length of the 47 inch tube is about 8.95 inches, which is definitely what I am able to light.
I will buy a tube of an intermediate size tomorrow if there is no storm.

Thank you for those suggestions.

jeanna

add
@Albert

QuoteI must know exactly how this one works . I have all night to myself tonight and i want to Wind / three" first . I'll go with what you Pm'ed me and reduce to 6?
Albert

Make it centertapped in a line as you described it the other day and make 2T and 8T then reduce it to 7T then 6T.
Your transistor could be different.
The base looks like 50ohm
The cap at the base was a 105 = 1000000pF=1uF for best results on this big one.

let me know!
j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hartiberlin on November 28, 2009, 09:00:00 AM

By the way,
sorry, I have not kept up with this thread for some while,
only lately,
but has somebody already tried to modify a car ignition coil
with winding a small pickup coil additionally onto the core
of the car ignition coil and use this coil for the basis of a JT transistor ?

This way you could also get the car ignition coil to work like
a JT and you could use the high turn high voltage coil as the output
for fluorescent tubes..

I know that imhotep did simular work, but I guess he used
no modification on the car ignition coil, but just pulsed it with
a 555 timer, when I remember correctly...

Has anyone tried these CCFL tubes for PC modding ?

These put out very bright light ( donÂ´t look longer directly into them,
I almost got blinded by them once !)
and the electronic inverter used there from
12 Volts DC to light up these bulbs is simular to a JT.

You can also hack these and enhance them.
They are also pretty cheap and have a great
ferrite transformer in them.
These put out also around 30 Khz 600 Volts spikes.

Please post videos of your success lighting up CCFL tubes
or fluorescent tubes or LED series chains with it and just a AA battery.

Regards, Stefan.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hartiberlin on November 28, 2009, 09:04:05 AM

I think,
we must find the best cheap transistor or MOSFET to switch
very fast the primary current on and off in a JT.
This will give us the best secondary induction voltage and it seems,
the higher the induction voltage is, the better will be the light output
from fluorescent bulbs and CCFL bulbs and LED chains.

So what would be the fastest switching standard cheap transistors or MOSFETs to use
for this ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 28, 2009, 10:29:13 AM

Stefan:

Yes, Wilbyinebriated made a nice project from a small beer keg and used the jt circuits and ccfl's to make a really cool light.

Wilby, if you see this, please post some photos of your light again, that was a great project.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 28, 2009, 02:50:38 PM

Quote from: hartiberlin on November 28, 2009, 09:04:05 AM
I think,
we must find the best cheap transistor or MOSFET to switch
very fast the primary current on and off in a JT.
This will give us the best secondary induction voltage and it seems,
the higher the induction voltage is, the better will be the light output
from fluorescent bulbs and CCFL bulbs and LED chains.

So what would be the fastest switching standard cheap transistors or MOSFETs to use
for this ?

Hi Stephan,
Some of us have been working on many of these elements you speak of.
The ferrite toroids have a lower limit to their frequency.
As the frequency of a joule thief goes down, the voltage goes up, so, to light a cfl, it is necessary to have one that will vibrate at 1khz-12khz.
I have not found the lower limit yet, but certainly, 50khz will bring the overall voltage down to the point where the cfl will no longer light.
In a higher frequency toroid, it will be necessary to start with a higher voltage to light the cfl.

This is the reason that the little toroid found in a cfl is not good for use in lighting a cfl from 1.2v battery and a joule thief. [because it was designed to start from 110 volts or 220 volts.]

Quotehack these and enhance them.
They are also pretty cheap and have a great
ferrite transformer in them.
These put out also around 30 Khz 600 Volts spikes.

Thank you for this information. You just saved me a lot of time as this was next on my list.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief---Really bad news folks
Post by: jeanna on November 28, 2009, 03:53:36 PM

I am doing as bill asked me to.
I tried to dissuade him, but to no avail.

Bill has left this forum.
:'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 28, 2009, 03:55:56 PM

Poynt has been made moderator and can therefore remove all interesting posts at his whim.
I am very sorry to have to report this.

I am hoping it was a bluff that poynt made to bill, but if poynt is really moderator, I will not have my posts moderated by him either.

I will give it some time, however.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on November 28, 2009, 04:12:25 PM

Big bros Is taking over ?

He edit comments (removing parts ), and post them in other treads , Make people look like aXX , anyone with half a brain can see that...

i should start a new forum , for those of us really working hard , a safe place like this site use to be .

Believe me if this doesn't change , gadget , jeanna , bill , stprue , wilby , jesus, jonny , ist, i really forget many of you now but you will be welcomed !

Everyone will have freedom to express them self , free from a holessss ....

I will start learning the blog software , and think of a name ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 28, 2009, 04:18:23 PM

i agree with you bros !

bill is a great member !

and pony only trys to cover it up as he has no true understanding as to why ...

however ... so be it!

if you build it they will come ... ;D

w

Title: Re: Jule Thief---Really bad news folks
Post by: xee2 on November 28, 2009, 04:18:41 PM

@ anyone

Quote from: jeanna on November 28, 2009, 03:53:36 PM
I am doing as bill asked me to.
I tried to dissuade him, but to no avail.

Bill has left this forum.
:'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

jeanna

Can someone please explain what this is about? If Pirate88179 left I would think that he would have at least left a message saying why.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 28, 2009, 04:24:02 PM

i think this is what the captians ment when they said they never built the HOUSE YET ...

NOR THE GARAGE ..

;D ;D ;D ;D

I RECCOMEND YOU WORK FAST BROS ..

im on the shop and testing docs ..

all the rest is sitting wateing on Q ;)

and there is NOTHING IN THIS COMSOS THAT CAN OR WILL STOP THE EVENTS THAT ARE TAKEING PLACE ..

you wake up early wake up late .. same place same game ... ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: powercat on November 28, 2009, 04:33:45 PM

Quote from: jeanna on November 28, 2009, 03:55:56 PM
Poynt has been made moderator and can therefore remove all interesting posts at his whim.
I am very sorry to have to report this.

I am hoping it was a bluff that poynt made to bill, but if poynt is really moderator, I will not have my posts moderated by him either.

I will give it some time, however.

jeanna

poynt is not the moderator of this thread, if it was all his posts here would be [name in green]
look at the second post on this page.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.10200 [Jule Thief]
However it does appear that any new thread that he starts he is the moderator on that one.

Hope this helps
cat

Title: Re: Jule Thief---Really bad news folks
Post by: jeanna on November 28, 2009, 04:37:04 PM

Quote from: xee2 on November 28, 2009, 04:18:41 PM
@ anyone
Can someone please explain what this is about? If Pirate88179 left I would think that he would have at least left a message saying why.

Hi xee2, He did. He asked me to deliver it.
I apologize for being so terse.

@All,
here are 2 emails Bill sent me.

Quote=====

I am sorry. Every time I pm'd Stefan, the messages went right to this jerk. So I am done. I wiped everything out on my account including moderator status.

=====
Jeanna:

I have already deleted everything and asked Stefan to remove the rest. The last request I sent in an e-mail to him.

Could you please let the others know what happened here? Gadget, Wilby, Jim, Mk1, and the rest of the gang?

I will still be posting on youtube with videos.

Again, I am sorry but Stefan sided with this clown so I was left with no choice as I see it.

And to think, when Stefan asked me if he should put him on read only, I said no. So much for diplomacy and trying to be nice about things. Wibly will be pissed because poynt tried to have him banned, and I stuck up for Wilby with Stefan.

Oh well.

Thanks Jeanna.

Quote===

I dare say it will be more than wilby.
jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 28, 2009, 04:43:34 PM

pony is going in the barn ..

flys are being deployed ...

im leaveing ... this site

use it a free ware .. i catch pattends .. they will be yanked !

try me!

i can fully explain in the finest of details ... ;) 8)

pony your wake up ... is not a nice one ... !

i was gental with farra ...

;)

w

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: broli on November 28, 2009, 05:29:01 PM

Poynt has made some smart moves to gain his control. I think he "donated" some money to the overunity prize, with his he included some vague rules and his super moderator title. This is very strange because as far as I have been on this forum I haven't seen him contribute or experiment in any positive way. His point of view was always extremily skeptical and replicated to debunk. If you approach things like that then you are in the wrong field, maybe at some physics forum with the arrogant and ignorant he would fit better.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 28, 2009, 05:48:39 PM

@Stephan .
You made a Big Mistake .
I am Deleting My account and taking My work Else where .

Guys you can get up with me thru My web Site .
Love all My Friends
Bye

Albert

AKA
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 28, 2009, 05:54:32 PM

i will share a little more info b4 i leave this site ..

this info will connect many dots ...

your welcome

THE STAR PEOPLE... ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on November 28, 2009, 06:05:12 PM

Has anyone tried a negistor oscillator in place of the toroid? ..I tired to build the 'simple' one that JL Naudin documented, but I haven't got the right components I suppose.

@Jeanna, you may be experiencing this phenomenon and not know it.. The inclusion of extraneous inductors is supposed to contribute to this effect.

@Gadget, If you're still here: The test I performed with the battery was done with, what I now believe to be a fried transistor, as it showed properties of conduction across the C-E junction without having been activated. I will have to redo the test at some point. I may try a higher end transistor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hartiberlin on November 28, 2009, 06:06:20 PM

Quote from: jeanna on November 28, 2009, 03:55:56 PM
Poynt has been made moderator and can therefore remove all interesting posts at his whim.
I am very sorry to have to report this.

I am hoping it was a bluff that poynt made to bill, but if poynt is really moderator, I will not have my posts moderated by him either.

I will give it some time, however.

jeanna

Hi Jeanna and all,
no, Poynt99 was only made moderator on the new measurement board,
not over here.

Over here only Bill is the moderator.

As Poynt99 abused his moderator rights and only posted nothing useful
and no measurement posts and made flame wars with other users,
I banned him now and set him on read only.

I thought, he would use his nice 50.000 US$ test equipment
See:
http://www.youtube.com/user/poynt99

to do a few good tests, but he did not and I was wrong.

Regards, Stefan.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 28, 2009, 06:09:27 PM

@ all

Before everyone deletes everything, let's see what is really happening. It is now 2AM in Germany and I suspect Stefan is sleeping and has no idea what is going on. If things still look rotten tommorrow, then everything can be deleted then.

EDIT: Well, I guess he wasn't sleeping since he posted at the same time I was posting.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hartiberlin on November 28, 2009, 06:10:58 PM

Please read my last post.

Please Gadget and Bill stay here.

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 28, 2009, 06:54:15 PM

Well, I hope Bill will be back. In the mean time Walmart is selling 50 filament bulbs for $1.99. I think this is the regular price, not a sale. But, they will probably go fast. These are 1 watt bulbs with 3.2 ohms resistance that will light using only a 1.5 volt battery. If you want some, better buy quick.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on November 28, 2009, 06:58:57 PM

Stefan,

I think you did the right move. This is a free energy forum and not a skeptical forum.

Sometimes the research and posts will be on the edge of normal science. I also think
this is normal in this kind of research. I'm all in for free speech and I think that skeptics
also have a place in this forum, but NOT as moderators! Members of this forum has done
a whole lot of research using their own money and time. They are the "back bone" of this
forum and deserves respect, not ridicule.

Open letter to Bill.

Bill, it is my impression that you have done a very good job moderating this thread. Over 10.000
posts and you have managed to stay on topic and only filtered the "chaff" away. I will ask you
to reconsider not leaving this thread and this forum. If you leave then "they" have won.

Open letter to Albert.

Please reconsider staying. I'm a firm believer in open source and generally think that patenting
is not a solution for a free energy devices. If you decide to leave then i will support you effort
anyway by email etc. But think about it, if we manage to get this right and "stumble" over
some sort of energy that are unknown, then the struggle was wort it.

All,

I think it is important to have fun. Electronic hobby is a great hobby where you can see
the result right away, be it the "magic smoke" or a running circuit. The mainstream science
will never do any research like we do. We are pretty much alone in this research.

Sincerely,
Groundloop.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hartiberlin on November 28, 2009, 07:25:46 PM

Quote from: jeanna on November 28, 2009, 02:50:38 PM
Hi Stephan,
Some of us have been working on many of these elements you speak of.
The ferrite toroids have a lower limit to their frequency.
As the frequency of a joule thief goes down, the voltage goes up, so, to light a cfl, it is necessary to have one that will vibrate at 1khz-12khz.
I have not found the lower limit yet, but certainly, 50khz will bring the overall voltage down to the point where the cfl will no longer light.
In a higher frequency toroid, it will be necessary to start with a higher voltage to light the cfl.

I see,
okay,
surely at 50 Khz the inductance of the primary winding
plays a major role
and you can only increase the current through the primary
windings and thus making the induction voltage bigger in the secondary windings,
if you make the L lower.

So just use a lower turn number for the primary windings..

Maybe just only 2 to 3 windings, so it has low
R and low L, so the RL timeconstant for this load
resistor of the JT transistor is small and it could run at 50 Khz.

But then you have to tune it right, so that it really
runs at this high frequency, otherwise it will burn up
the transistor, if the frequency gets too low...
(if the On-time is too big, too much current will flow then)

Quote

Thank you for this information. You just saved me a lot of time as this was next on my list.

jeanna

Well yes, you can just hack such a PC modding CCFL inverter,
which is normally made for 12 Volts and modify it for 1.5 Volts usage.

You can remove the cap at the secondary coil of the transformer,
as this flattens the pulses, which we donÂ´t want.
Also you can tune the resistors a bit, so the transistor gets
different basis currents, so the circuit will already work with
lower voltages.

Hope this helps.
Regards, Stefan.

P.S:Has anyone yet made a JT with just a IRF 840 MOSFET
and no transistor ? Can you post a circuit diagram ? Many thanks.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 28, 2009, 07:32:37 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on November 28, 2009, 06:05:12 PM
Has anyone tried a negistor oscillator in place of the toroid? ..I tired to build the 'simple' one that JL Naudin documented, but I haven't got the right components I suppose.

@Jeanna, you may be experiencing this phenomenon and not know it.. The inclusion of extraneous inductors is supposed to contribute to this effect.

I think it is funny you ask, jadaro.

It was the assertion from MK1 that these transistors I was using could act as a negistor and could be turned around that got me started on my successful multiple secondaries experiment.

I do not why you say what you do about stray inductors... so I will have to see what naudin says.

For now, I just got a new and newly discontinued (!!!!) toroid which should be a good one.

@All,
I think we need to buy up some good toroids (but sample them first) so we can get what we need.
We need a strategy.

jeanna

edit
@Stephan,
OK I will try the little green toroid I just removed from the cfl.
It would be really nice to be able to light a cfl with a little one.
I will give it a try this evening.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 28, 2009, 07:53:11 PM

This is a first for me. Filament bulb lit from pickup coil of JT. I am not sure if anyone else has already done this. It doesn't make much sense to do this since the bulb will light directly from the 1.5 volt battery, but it does show it can be done.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mannix on November 28, 2009, 07:53:40 PM

I would like to add my appreciation to the research and ides exchange that has happened here.

These circuits are very interesting and just happen , to look exactly like the torrid in the FTPU and others.

I could mention that blocking oscillators are not fully understood by any body

The point is not to argue for your limits but try to expand your thinking and this thread had done that for many.
It uses simple components and regardless of wether you accept the claims as you interperet them, the power of this thread is the idea exchanges going on. Is that not a powerful thing , a delicate thing , a wonderfuL thing???

Please dont drop the ball guys , just ignore the hurtful posts and they will go away. some people only want to fight because they know of no other way , they have not yet learned and might never do so, especially if you drop the ball. They will just go stirring hornets nests else where.

I ve seen a few people actually build one here some that were denyers.

Sure OU is a big ask but nobody will get any where if you run off to patent That's the problem you see greed . Its is what has Steven Mark in a hole

Please reconsider continuing what has opened a few eyes to a few new things and who knows where it might lead? ..no where if you quit that's for sure

Lindsay Mannix

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 28, 2009, 08:11:58 PM

yes stephen ... i have built 1 a long time ago .. as some one has my video ..... over there......

this i dont care about ...

i will try to find some old videos i made ...

and copy it out ..

where is pony from ... clearly canada... he has a master craft meter.... ::)

j

I VOTE CONTROL OF STRATIGITY be given to you ... cuz youz gotz da skills ;D 8)

how ever we do know how this works ... and it is a ballanceing act .. common ground must be reached .. this is why i try not to pick on people ... hard for a lion ya know espically one born on leo's power day ... 1:43 min into it ... it make my roar .. tooo lould some times .. :-[

see how it unraveles ..

gadget please dont remove anything .. from its place.. it is you only security.. ;)

but if things do not un ravell as they should i will walk ... as will all others that want to learn and figure it out .. correctly .. this oly comes with hard work ... dont i know ... sheesh .. lol

any how ...

lets keep the peace .. and learn as 1 things move along much faster and safer that way ..

plus our stuty is verry deep that way ... perfection is not gained frome 1 single point of view

not even just 12 points of view ... ;)

w

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 28, 2009, 08:19:14 PM

Quote from: xee2 on November 28, 2009, 07:53:11 PM
This is a first for me. Filament bulb lit from pickup coil of JT. I am not sure if anyone else has already done this. It doesn't make much sense to do this since the bulb will light directly from the 1.5 volt battery, but it does show it can be done.

xee2,
That is terrific.
I see the diode in your diagram.
Is that needed for the light to work?

How many of these lights will turn on with your jtc?
Battery run not mains 1.2v power supply right?
(You know I don't trust those to not leak.)
cooool

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on November 28, 2009, 08:46:59 PM

I'm wondering If a higher frequency becomes more sensitive to interference in the toroid. Isn't it reasonable to deduce that a higher frequency will have less current from the primary flowing through it?

Quote from: jeanna on November 28, 2009, 07:32:37 PM
I think it is funny you ask, jadaro.
...
I do not why you say what you do about stray inductors... so I will have to see what naudin says.
...
jeanna

By 'stray', I should say strategically placed. :)

You may also note that the extra inductors will pick up 'signals' from the toroid or the mandatory inductors... placing them at 90 degrees to one another should void this, or make its interference negligible ..without a toroid, placement is obvious, but with one, an obvious placement becomes more non-obvious.

I just had an interesting thought about the pre-fab inductors, placing two as normal and one off the emitter may result in a higher junction capacitance across B-E; I wonder what this will do.

( off to test )...and this seems to nullify the process unless I use a very small inductor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 28, 2009, 08:48:15 PM

@ jeanna,

Quote from: jeanna on November 28, 2009, 08:19:14 PM
I see the diode in your diagram.
Is that needed for the light to work?

Yes. Bulb does not light without diode. I am not sure why.

I have not tried adding more bulbs.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on November 28, 2009, 08:55:34 PM

Quote from: xee2 on November 28, 2009, 08:48:15 PM
@ jeanna,

Yes. Bulb does not light without diode. I am not sure why.

I have not tried adding more bulbs.

The light bulb, is it ~3 ohms at rest, or is it ~3 ohms when lit? ...the resistance should go up when it's lit ( regardless of the what value the initial resistance is ).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 28, 2009, 09:01:42 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on November 28, 2009, 08:55:34 PM
The light bulb, is it ~3 ohms at rest, or is it ~3 ohms when lit? ...the resistance should go up when it's lit ( regardless of the what value the initial resistance is ).

3.2 ohms cold.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 28, 2009, 09:09:14 PM

I found some K values.
xee2, Is the K the same as the u?

oops mixed cm's with inches

edit:
biggo K= 4935
Tor-23 K= 840
Tor-61 K=6140
Tor-53K=9150

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 28, 2009, 09:25:57 PM

I am not sure what K is. It is not permability. Here are some common symbols.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 28, 2009, 09:33:16 PM

Could K be flux density?
My modified numbers seem in line. Please delete my quote so the mistake is gone.

Here is the page.
I know you know this.
I do not know the question even!!!

jeanna

I backed into this because I knew the inductance and the dimensions.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 28, 2009, 09:44:36 PM

Quote from: jeanna on November 28, 2009, 09:33:16 PM
Could K be flux density?
jeanna

Relative permeability is permeability divided by the permeability of free space. Google it. I am glad to see you are working with this site. It gives the best understanding IF you can understand it.

permeability of free space = 1.2566371 Ã— 10-6 (Î¼0)

but I am not sure about the units and they make all of the difference.

See if dividing 10,000 by 1.2 gives your K value for TOR-60

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: broli on November 28, 2009, 09:50:24 PM

@Stefan: Lidmotor has some youtube videos using a 555 timer, it could be modefied to operate a mosfet instead of a transistor. But notice that this would start to resemble the Rosemary Ainslie COP 17 Heater.

http://www.free-energy.ws/images/circuit3.jpg (http://www.free-energy.ws/images/circuit3.jpg)

Basically all these concepts boil down to very high voltage spikes that exceed unity. And apperently IST and gadget have experienced that ultra capacitors can absorb those better than batteries.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 28, 2009, 10:45:03 PM

Xee2,
I have bookmarked a site and I will enjoy learning more from it.

Right now, I am wanting a way for us to be able to quickly find a source of good toroids based on our historical successes.
And, right now, we do not know the properties of the more successful toroids, so how will we ever be able to locate a good batch and stop wasting our time and money on the wrong thing.
I wasted about 36USD on a bunch of 60 and 120 u toroids. I am sure they work well in some application, but as a source of pulses in my JT dynamo, they are terrible.
I will try the high permeability toroid once again, but I think it is the same problem... just on the other end.

My good toroids fall into a range. I will be trying the new one soon and I expect it to be a little less good based on today's figures.

I would like to know what the figures represent.
It looks like u_r which means relative permeability.
but what is that?
Does any manufacturer use that?

Thanks as always for your help,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 28, 2009, 11:04:40 PM

@ jeanna

For JT you want the highest permeability you can get. That gives the most inductance per turn and that gives the highest voltage pulse per milliamp. The high permeability cores become more lossy as the frequency increases. Thus at higher frequencies (around 10 MHz) they have too much loss and lower permeability cores are needed. In addition to the permeability, the shape of the core should be considered. If you would with the site you were at you will see what parameters increase inductance (which is what you want to do to get the highest output voltage).

I hope that helps.

Title: Re: Jule Thief---Really bad news folks
Post by: WilbyInebriated on November 28, 2009, 11:06:38 PM

Quote from: jeanna on November 28, 2009, 03:53:36 PM
I am doing as bill asked me to.
I tried to dissuade him, but to no avail.

Bill has left this forum.
:'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

jeanna

wtf??? wow. well, as a show of solidarity unless bill returns i won't be posting at this forum any longer either.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 28, 2009, 11:25:00 PM

Quote from: xee2 on November 28, 2009, 11:04:40 PM

I hope that helps.

Thanks xee2,

I just wrote to one of the distributors.
I hope we can find something standard.

@Wilby,
Things have changed etc.
Please read on beyond that first post.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 29, 2009, 12:34:09 AM

I bought a 13 watt CFL today and tried it out. I had no problem getting it to light up completely when battery was connected but it does not seem as bright as Lidmotor was getting. So maybe the extra turns do help.

EDIT: I added another photo. It looks brighter when it is standing up.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 29, 2009, 12:46:21 AM

xee2,
All I told him was to get above 450 volts.
Then I told him what I used.
It was because lidmotor said he had over 1000 volts that I tried the new transistor and reduced the primary turns on last summer's core.

13 watt is not as bright as 10 watt. I do think that is interesting.
I see it with leds too.
If I have fewer leds to fuller brightness it seems brighter than many more with less brightness.
It is so subjective I haven't mentioned it.

There are a lot of elements working together.
I think the transistor makes a big difference too.

Why not put on 120 turns instead of 80.

I just tried the high permeability toroid and the new one.
I just put on the turns needed to get the same inductance I have in the big one and the joule thief takes off.

This is so interesting.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief---Really bad news folks
Post by: xee2 on November 29, 2009, 01:50:29 AM

@ WilbyInebriated

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 28, 2009, 11:06:38 PM
wtf??? wow. well, as a show of solidarity unless bill returns i won't be posting at this forum any longer either.

I am hoping that Bill will come back. He is still moderator. If he does not want to continue then I think he should close this thread. But this all seems to be a lack of communication between Bill and Stefan. I hope that the problems have been fixed.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on November 29, 2009, 01:59:20 AM

hmmm,

the trick must be the 2n3055
i have wrap over 700 turns and lower to only get 371 ac
and i have tried a mje 3055 only a 5 v rise
so i will go to the shack and get me a couple of 2n3055's
i never liked the 3055 in my bendini motors
but if it help this much in the jt i will get some...

and i found out that if you go in to layers on this tor-60 it killed voltage
it done best between 200-450 turns one layer

@xee2
if you go thur the scr way you can get the pulses in the high hz then go into a brigde then a cap and lite a 4 watt bulb of 110.. one of those nite light ones.. it pretty kool but i want more watts
i am still work on the same circuit i was... but am trying to perfect the third stage..
i got me some daics out of some electronic ballast lights
and some more small transformers to jt from a couple of crt monitors

oh i got a kool fan to show you guys soon.. it my old scr circuit in to a flyback with a reversed diode small ion propulsion... puts out alot of neg. air flow

i'll quit bother you guys with nonsense
good nite all

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on November 29, 2009, 02:32:38 AM

oh..
i also wanted to tell you folks i was messing around with a 5'' aircoil jt and was putting the feedback to the input getting good results..
but i had to quit...
my radio was on 93.7 and it cut it off and i got a smoking bad head ache..
and lucking the mosfet flew...
so i went for a nap
if it tells you something the mosfet was a 500v to-3 that i got from goldmine a couple month ago
i won't be doing that again

the head ache was so bad i wanted to kill myself or others...
so please don't try the aircoil design...

i'm only 30 yrs old i need a different hobby.. hahahaha
yea right

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 29, 2009, 02:35:01 AM

@ kooler

I am still waiting for the new SCRs but now I do not think they will work either. But, I have a new idea, if it works I think you will be able to get more power out at high voltage. Stay tuned. I try to not post untested ideas.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on November 29, 2009, 02:47:11 AM

i am currently using your circuit design but with neons .....
the diodes instead of a bridge.. it does real good
i did find out if you use a cap under the resistor for the trigger on the triac or scr it works without
holding the gate open all the time...
i got two of those 650 farad cap of 2.7 volts.. what a waste i blew one...hahaha
the top blows out..
it fried my ipod 8 feet away...
of course i was outside waiting to see what happen.lol
i thought since gadget took 14 hours to charge for a 4 min discharge...
it would take me as long
so i went to get some food and my walk back to the cellar..
i heard a boom so i run in to see... it burst thur the top....
ah hell i got one more to play with

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Farrah Day on November 29, 2009, 06:47:25 AM

Seems to have been some changes around here but this should not detract from experiments as some of you are clearly doing some very interesting work with the JT.

Perhaps PirateBill has gone because he has overstepped his mark. Moderators should not be allowed to simply delete any post that they so choose to at will, whether they agree with what has been said or not. It would also be useful to have a moderator with a background education in science on such forums and not simply an open mind. I'm somewhat abrupt and say what's on my mind, but then pay for this by promptly getting my post deleted by Pirate Bill. This is not right, as it does not address the balance of play.

I'm not at heart a troublemaker or troll as some say, but I do harbour a healthy scepticism and do not suffer idiots gladly.

People like Jeanna clearly work hard, putting time and effort into experiments and also have a good understanding of what's happening. However, others like IST (the being from another world â€" his own words, not mine) don't have a clue and do more damage to this forum than good. I guess most of you have a much greater tolerance for stupidity than myself, but why PirateBill would delete my posts (as I knew he would) and allow IST to post â€˜star mapsâ€™ and other such continual utter bullshit, is mystifying.

Why anyone tolerates the nonsense IST continually spouts is quite beyond me. Without his nonsense these threads would be far more compact, far more on topic and kept relatively real. With IST around, science does not get a look-in, which is a real shame for those of you putting in the time and effort and getting real results.

I would love to join in on this thread and converse sensibly with the likes of Jeanna, but I could never politely put up with the frequent interruptions of nonsensical IST posts. And yes, I know it's not particularly polite to call him â€˜Inexplicably Stupidâ€™ as I tend to do, but give a girl a break, I'm only saying what everybody else knows but are too polite to say. And I can be as rude as he is stupid!

Intelligence and common sense go a long way. Throw in a bit of education and this forum could be good. However, while moderators allow the likes of IST to post his garbage, members whose input could be really beneficial in moving the science forward will simply steer clear, deeming the place to be an absolute madhouse!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Gilobob on November 29, 2009, 07:47:14 AM

@FD

If you stop calling people stupid and lunatics maybe then your post won't get deleted......
stupid this stupid that stupid ist... boehoehoe....

I'm sorry this is my first post. I had to read some 1000 pages :P
When I first made a JT I noticed that there was some great potential in it. so I started looking and building. Finally i came here.

Got a JT with a speaker magnet core and can be connected to a USB port.
So I can use a cheap solar phone/ipod charger or just hook it up to my PC. Just now I'm Charging a Big 12V 400A batt. With this JT i can charge all my batts that I got.

Last couple of days I've been fiddling with gadget's circuit. I don't have the big Ultra's. (maybe in some appliances i have, still looking :P) But i have a 5V 1F ultra cap and I put a solar panel garden light circuit with it.

The Run batt is a 1.2V 750 mAh and is still running at 1.257V
I started at 1.297V but first i didn't got the solar circuit and needed to tune it. now its resting at 1.255 -1.267

Thanks for all the long nights reading and reading :)

Made me a new coil. Still thinking how i should run it.

GrtZ and keep on building

Title: Re: Jule Thief---Really bad news folks
Post by: electricme on November 29, 2009, 07:56:27 AM

@ Jeanna and ALL

Quote from: jeanna on November 28, 2009, 04:37:04 PM
Hi xee2, He did. He asked me to deliver it.
I apologize for being so terse.

@All,
here are 2 emails Bill sent me. I am sorry. Every time I pm'd Stefan, the messages went right to this jerk. So I am done. I wiped everything out on my account including moderator status.

=====
Jeanna:

I have already deleted everything and asked Stefan to remove the rest. The last request I sent in an e-mail to him.

Could you please let the others know what happened here? Gadget, Wilby, Jim, Mk1, and the rest of the gang?

I will still be posting on youtube with videos.

Again, I am sorry but Stefan sided with this clown so I was left with no choice as I see it.

And to think, when Stefan asked me if he should put him on read only, I said no. So much for diplomacy and trying to be nice about things. Wibly will be pissed because poynt tried to have him banned, and I stuck up for Wilby with Stefan.

Oh well.

Thanks Jeanna.
I dare say it will be more than wilby.
jeanna

I also have had a PM from Bill, and I before any of the new bies say who is this electricme, go back a ways and you will see my posts, so I think I am suitably qualified to post this post as a member and in this manner.

@ Bill,
It was with great shock I heard about what you have been put through, to think someone would steep so low to gain control of a forum in a most devious way is deplorable, and desspeakable.
The person who contemplated this act is worthy of "nothing, zero, zilch", how could anyone dream up a plan and carry it out.
Only the person who has no conscience.

BILL I will shout this to all who read this.

YOU ARE WITHOUT DOUBT ONE OF THE GIANTS OF OVERUNITY (Stefan take notice please)

BILL, YOU ARE SEEN NOT ONLY IN OVERUNITY AS A GIANT, BUT IN OTHER FORUMS I HAVE VISITED, THOSE WHO KNOW YOU SPEAK VERY HIGHLY OF YOU.

I see a snake in the grass who has knifed you in the back.

BILL, HOLD YOUR HEAD HIGH MATE, YOU HAVE NOTHING TO FEAR.
YOUR INTREGRITY WITH THOSE WHO KNOW YOU IS ABOVE REPROACH

Regards from us all and congrats for making OU JOULE THIEF forum the most enjoyable forum on OU

jim
electricme
an AUSTRALIAN.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on November 29, 2009, 08:28:09 AM

@Mannix

Quote from: Mannix on November 28, 2009, 07:53:40 PM
I would like to add my appreciation to the research and ides exchange that has happened here.

These circuits are very interesting and just happen , to look exactly like the torrid in the FTPU and others.

I could mention that blocking oscillators are not fully understood by any body

The point is not to argue for your limits but try to expand your thinking and this thread had done that for many.
It uses simple components and regardless of wether you accept the claims as you interperet them, the power of this thread is the idea exchanges going on. Is that not a powerful thing , a delicate thing , a wonderfuL thing???

Please dont drop the ball guys , just ignore the hurtful posts and they will go away. some people only want to fight because they know of no other way , they have not yet learned and might never do so, especially if you drop the ball. They will just go stirring hornets nests else where.

I ve seen a few people actually build one here some that were denyers.

Sure OU is a big ask but nobody will get any where if you run off to patent That's the problem you see greed . Its is what has Steven Mark in a hole

Please reconsider continuing what has opened a few eyes to a few new things and who knows where it might lead? ..no where if you quit that's for sure

Lindsay Mannix

You are spot on Lindsay, this is why I put my engine on OU, then anyone can go and build it, I could have made millions by patenting it, but I read where those who have done this are tired up for ever, I'm too old for that tommy rot.
---------------------------------

@ Stefan,
Thank you for publically saying you made a mistake, (back a few posts mate), it takes guts to say this, especially when its a bonza, (Australian strine for BIG HUGE), but what I see is, once you knew you made that mistake, you publically posted a sorry and the solution.
Well done sir.

BILL, please stay on this forum, don't leave it, it's YOUR BABY, you are an essential key in the JT puzzle, and you are needed.
Gadget, you also are needed.
IST, you are needed toooooooooooooo
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 29, 2009, 08:47:51 AM

well i posted my map .. as i was instructed to do ...

and i hope you read it ..

dont think you wanna play snakes and ladders ...

end up in the wrong place... ;)

have fun ...

fara wound a coil ... :o but will he learn anything ...

w

ty jim !

i gave what i have and have no plans on removing my work .. but i dont think some of my work should be posted .. the reality is ... there is not much that can not be achieved ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on November 29, 2009, 08:49:52 AM

@Farrah Day,

When I went to school, I was taught at a young age to be respectful to those around you, if you had anything to say, say it but in a respectful manner.
You sir need a little bit of the old soap in the mouth bit.

I also see you seem to enjoy the notion to sink the boot into a chap when he is down, shame on you.

I see you have a heep of gold stars, maybe they should be changed to BLACK, it would reflect your personality much more accurately.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on November 29, 2009, 08:59:36 AM

@all

I still do not understand what is happening. But on this forum and others from him, the presence of @pirate is needed to keep the unity of the group.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on November 29, 2009, 09:30:23 AM

it's not your madness that is offensive farrah, it is your method, which usually embodies itself in logical fallacies such as ad hominem, strawman, etc. like the one you just posited about IST. ist didn't offend you, YOU offended yourself. there comes a time when being polite doesn't cut it? you are mistaken. there is never a time being polite doesn't cut it unless you are juvenile or uncivilized.
furthermore, why are you even commenting on what IST says since as you so succinctly put it... "The fact that you seem happy to let him fill up threads with his illiterate nonsense and are too polite to say otherwise is your problem." you do see the contradiction between that statement and your continued posting of your opinion of IST don't you? we all do...

are you still struggling with that 15 component circuit of stifflers? do you need some help?

regarding the PRIVATE and NOT PUBLIC message gadget sent you, perhaps he also is respectful when respect is due... your language is foul, and we can also gather from your posts that you spent a good deal of time being educated, but didn't learn anything. you obviously missed the main points they teach in kindergarten... grow up farrah and learn some social skills.

ALL I REALLY NEED TO KNOW I LEARNED IN KINDERGARTEN

(a guide for Global Leadership)

All I really need to know about how to live and what to do and how to be I learned in kindergarten. Wisdom was not at the top of the graduate school mountain, but there in the sand pile at school.
These are the things I learned:

* Share everything.
* Play fair.
* Don't hit people.
* Put things back where you found them.
* Clean up your own mess.
* Don't take things that aren't yours.
* Say you're sorry when you hurt somebody.
* Wash your hands before you eat.
* Flush.
* Warm cookies and cold milk are good for you.
* Live a balanced life - learn some and think some and draw and paint and sing and dance and play and work every day some.
* Take a nap every afternoon.
* When you go out in the world, watch out for traffic, hold hands and stick together.
* Be aware of wonder. Remember the little seed in the Styrofoam cup: the roots go down and the plant goes up and nobody really knows how or why, but we are all like that.
* Goldfish and hamsters and white mice and even the little seed in the Styrofoam cup - they all die. So do we.
* And then remember the Dick-and-Jane books and the first word you learned - the biggest word of all - LOOK.

Everything you need to know is in there somewhere. The Golden Rule and love and basic sanitation. Ecology and politics and equality and sane living.

Take any one of those items and extrapolate it into sophisticated adult terms and apply it to your family life or your work or government or your world and it holds true and clear and firm. Think what a better world it would be if we all - the whole world - had cookies and milk at about 3 o'clock in the afternoon and then lay down with our blankies for a nap. Or if all governments had as a basic policy to always put things back where they found them and to clean up their own mess.

And it is still true, no matter how old you are, when you go out in the world, it is best to hold hands and stick together.
[Source: "ALL I REALLY NEED TO KNOW I LEARNED IN KINDERGARTEN" by Robert Fulghum. See his web site at http://www.robertfulghum.com/ ]

PS. as a side note i find it amusingly ironic that your namesake Michael Faraday was an autodidact (self educated) and knew little of higher mathematics such as calculus, he was one of the most influential scientists in history... Socrates, Descartes, Avicenna, Benjamin Franklin, George Bernard Shaw, Feodor Chaliapin, Abraham Lincoln, Ernest Hemingway, Thomas Alva Edison, Frederick Douglass, Malcolm X, Christopher Hughes, Kato Lomb, Buckminster Fuller and Eric Hoffer... all autodidacts.

mark twain is known to have said: "i have never let my schooling interfere with my education."

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Paul-R on November 29, 2009, 09:38:01 AM

Quote from: Farrah Day on November 29, 2009, 06:47:25 AM
Moderators should not be allowed to simply delete any post that they so choose to at will

Yes, They should. That is why they are moderators. The value of this websitwe is
reduced by the inadequacy of its moderators.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Farrah Day on November 29, 2009, 09:54:58 AM

Agreed, the inadequacy of the moderators reduces the value of this forum - the very fact that IST has been allowed to post endless garbage emphasises this.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 29, 2009, 10:01:34 AM

@ Gilobob

Quote from: Gilobob on November 29, 2009, 07:47:14 AM
So I can use a cheap solar phone/ipod charger or just hook it up to my PC. Just now I'm Charging a Big 12V 400A batt. With this JT i can charge all my batts that I got.

Thanks for reading the pages before posting. I think that hooking a JT to a PC is a bad idea. The JT sends large spikes back into the battery. The USB port is not made to handle this.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 29, 2009, 10:22:57 AM

i think it is also a bad idea to call bad ships in the night!

of course i know ...

for your own safety i ask you stop calling them !

i hear they dont like lould whistels..

if you do not understand what im saying fine ... it is because it is not you calling them

if you know what im saying... then it is best you stop .. :o

w

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Farrah Day on November 29, 2009, 10:37:58 AM

As if to emphasise my argument on sensible moderation, IST compiles yet another unintelligible post of garbage:

Quotei think it is also a bad idea to call bad ships in the night!

of course i know ...

for your own safety i ask you stop calling them !

i hear they dont like lould whistels..

if you do not understand what im saying fine ... it is because it is not you calling them

if you know what im saying... then it is best you stop ..

w

And you folks have problems with my rebelling against this sort of insanity? Why? What is wrong with you people?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 29, 2009, 10:47:42 AM

@ jeanna
I think the attached chart shows the effect of different permeability. The W material has a higher permeability than the J material. Z is a measure of inductance per turn. Notice that below 2.5 MHz the high permeability material produces more inductance per turn where as above 2.5 MHz the lower permeability material produces more inductance per turn. The material is selected which gives the most inductance per turn at the frequency of operation. For Joule thiefs, the frequency is in low KHz so the W material is better for JT.

EDIT: The J material will work in JT but it will take more turns than the W material to get the same output voltage.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 29, 2009, 10:48:51 AM

im not being rude ...

but honestly farra ... do you live in a box?

have you not done any serches on the net ...

i think if you did a serch you would eat your words...

people think that what they are doing is a good thing calling things... yet they are afriad! fear is a form of control ...

;)

as is love ...

w

i have come to the conculsion any core can be tuned to its max output ... then more coils can be added :) i also find that when running at its natural running freq .. is a good place to start... then seccond freq pulsing syncing with earth will give EXTREAM RESULTS..

you are pulseing at its natural resonance ... detirumaned by the wire length and the core resonance ... when you cut the pulse ... it returns A FLYBACK RESENANT MIRROR of what was sent in .. IN a much larger out put ...

hope this helps...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on November 29, 2009, 10:56:12 AM

@ Farrah Day,

Ha ha ha, us Australians have a term for fellas like you, we call them "winging poms", always complaining about their lot in life, never satisfied with anything, so go out of their way to make others unhappy.
People like this have a slight problem, it's generally caused by a loose screw in the top paddock.

Quote from: Farrah Day on November 29, 2009, 09:12:16 AM
Well Jim, speaking my mind and being truthful has never made me any friends on the forum, which in my opinion goes a long way to emphasising the general mentality of people around here. When people are willing to side with the mentally challenged rather than speak the truth there is a problem somewhere. I guess the truth hurts, eh?

I am respectful when respect is due, but find the likes of IST an insult to my intelligence, and no doubt so do other members with half-a-brain. The fact that you seem happy to let him fill up threads with his illiterate nonsense and are too polite to say otherwise is your problem. There comes a time when being polite just doesn't cut it anymore - some of you people should wake up!

Incidentally, while we're on the subject of respect and etiquette, Gadgetboy personally emailed me with this:

Now, I might say it as I see it, but my language is never foul. I can gather from this email that Gadgetboy is not only foulmouthed and poorly educated, but also of limited intelligence. But of course, you can make of it what you will.

Ha ha ha, speaking your mind is healthy, but I see you actually state you have trouble making friends on the forum, that's too bad, but it's no wonder you suffer from this malady, no doubt you have worked very hard to reach this level, you do realise this is entirely your own doing? :D

So you like the challenge of intelligence conversation!!! well take a hike sonny, were all dumb bunnies who wouldn't know one piece of wire from another, and we threw the electrical rule book out the window, so we wouldn't ever fit in your league, no, nor would we ever want to. ;)

In regards to IST, well I can see you haven't taken the time to further your education by visiting his U Tube videos, and if you had, maybe the volume was turned down, you might have learnt from a genius, but that would make you feel dummer than dumb. ::) :P

Those forum people who have half a brain know intelligence when they see it, they also recognise ultra stupidity, you have to graduate from the kindergarten yet.

You continue on your verbal diatribe, by going on attacking people, picking on Gadget, and others, you show us all your actual mentality, or state of mind, and its not very pretty. (no wonder this chap has a problem). :'(

BUT, there is an answer, which should make you feel much better, just look in the mirror as you think of the words you have used to describe the others in this forum, I'm sure a smart arse fella like you will figure out eventually, its a figment of your imagination. :-*

Maybe those stars should be tar black in stead of just black, give the sonny boy another star, whoopy doo. :D

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Gilobob on November 29, 2009, 11:05:35 AM

@ xee2

I red that before, so i hooked my scope up but it didn't show big spikes. Only spikes 0.5V above the normal power out (about 5V on USB)
But this is with batt connected. If i unplug the batt, the spikes show up en it starts to hisss (with batt there is a high pitch tone)
So i allways connect the load first and then connect the power :)

So with this one it is ok but thanks anyway :) Have more PC troubles with other coils that make my PC go tuuuut and bedoink :P

GrtZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Farrah Day on November 29, 2009, 11:07:40 AM

I assume you mean 'Whingeing Pom'. So asking for a little sanity around here is classed as whingeing? Heaven help us all!

QuoteIn regards to IST, well I can see you haven't taken the time to further your education by visiting his U Tube videos, and if you had, maybe the volume was turned down, you might have learnt from a genius, but that would make you feel dummer than dumb.

Well, I'd heard you Aussies have a great sense of humour, but I think you've surpassed yourself here... I just couldn't stop laughing!!

Anyone that puts IST and genius in the same sentence is a very talented comedian! ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on November 29, 2009, 11:26:28 AM

@all

Either we move or we really need a moderator , the second wave of attack has begun ?

We don't like you , stop disturbing the peace ...

You are just disturbing the flow of idea exchange , we like thinking outside of the box you seem to be stock in .

Ist is not for everyone i admit , but he is not disturbing hard working people , the way you do ...

Electric , don't worry the mirror must have broken a while ago , this is the only way he can get attention ...

If Bill doesn't come back , someone will have to step in ...

Or we leave ?

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hartiberlin on November 29, 2009, 11:36:47 AM

I guess, Farrah Day needed a rest for calling names.
I have set her(him) on read only now,
I hope now we can work on here with more ontopic
comments.

Also IST it would be good, if you could also stay more ontopic
and describe your experiments some more or
post links to your youtube videos.

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan. (admin)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on November 29, 2009, 11:53:47 AM

@Stefan

Thank you very much , do you know if pirate deleted his account ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on November 29, 2009, 12:26:45 PM

@ jeanna,

If you have not already visited this site have a look hear: http://www.66pacific.com/calculators/coil_calc.aspx
It could be of some use.
Experiments using filament bulbs will effectively short out the collector of the JT to ground as the filaments DC impedance represents a short circuit. Either use a separate winding of just a few turns or include the diode. LED's are relatively high impedance devices that emit photons to produce their light.
PS I hope I don't to insult you intelligence, as my comments are only intended as a general guide.
@ All _
Keep up the good work, lets see normality returning to the forum and the topic. I am a 63 year old electronics engineer, I have designed many projects within the electronics industry over many...many years, irrespective of my knowledge and understanding of the subject in general I keep an open mind, your experiments will over time reward you with a unique knowledge of what can become an absorbing and interesting hobby if nothing else. It is only fair of those like myself who hold that knowledge to help and guide others along the way.
To be able to share with others is a wonderful and satisfying reward in life.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 29, 2009, 01:08:38 PM

Quote from: xee2 on November 29, 2009, 12:34:09 AM
I bought a 13 watt CFL today and tried it out. I had no problem getting it to light up completely when battery was connected but it does not seem as bright as Lidmotor was getting. So maybe the extra turns do help.

EDIT: I added another photo. It looks brighter when it is standing up.

xee2,
That looks much brighter... bright enough to see the toroid a few feet away.

====

I have not read all the posts yet but, I did see crowclaw's post.
Thank you.

@crowclaw
I am wondering if you have ever used the jt as a pulse dynamo in any of your normal EE type designs?
--- oh I must add, and not rectified it?

I believe my experimental circuit (NOT the jeanna's light) is 2 parallel sets of parallel circuits being magnetically driven by the pulses of the basic jt. I removed the bjt light so I am not wasting that, and I am working with series inductors along the line wires of the parallel circuit.
I believe this is very similar to normal house wiring design in many ways.

Each inductor in series seems to be augmenting the voltage output of the adjacent/connected part of the circuit.

If you can shed some light from experience with this I am much obliged.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 29, 2009, 01:20:56 PM

Quote from: hartiberlin on November 29, 2009, 11:36:47 AM
I guess, Farrah Day needed a rest for calling names.
I have set her(him) on read only now,
I hope now we can work on here with more ontopic
comments.

Also IST it would be good, if you could also stay more ontopic
and describe your experiments some more or
post links to your youtube videos.

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan. (admin)

yes ... i will stick to the topic ...
right now power .. wich video? i will do my best to explain ..

i have seen by just stopping the flow in a wire .. you can get a good colapse.. wich you can collect in a cap .. via a diode ... so pass engery through a coil catch it in a cap allow it to colpase .. and catch that in the same output cap ... this is gain ...

ist!

at the point of break the charge will be releassed.. at the switch and the cap ... both are points of break in the system .. for gain you must rectify from switch as it can only push so much into the cap ... the voltage gain needs to come from the colpase as it is the only thing of higher potencial .. that will provide the extra push required .. you can do this in a single pulse to best understand ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on November 29, 2009, 01:28:46 PM

@Jeanna

I just was your vid of the 13 watt. Awesome!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 29, 2009, 01:35:31 PM

what i have just explained is my shift coil ..

an advanced jt still in MOST BASIC FORM..

ill add a pic

in what is showen below connect the 2 wires togather as a jt mk2 style ... primary 1 primary 2

then cap ... pulse input ... rectify from switch to cap ..... cap shares common ground with supply... ;) gain wire goes through FAST RECOVERY DIODE.. to cap ...

:) w

first off agin this ring can be made operate many ways ...

i use this to explain gain ...

this is not displayed in any jt i have seen nor ever applyed to a working device i know of ....

this has verry little to do with resonance... that as i have said is an effect in my opinion

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on November 29, 2009, 01:43:46 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on November 29, 2009, 01:35:31 PM
what i have just explained is my shift coil ..

an advanced jt still in MOST BASIC FORM..

ill add a pic

in what is showen below connect the 2 wires togather as a jt mk2 style ... primary 1 primary 2

then cap ... pulse input ... rectify from switch to cap ..... cap shares common ground with supply... ;) gain wire goes through FAST RECOVERY DIODE.. to cap ...

:) w

What can it do?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 29, 2009, 01:50:13 PM

you build it wrong it will self destruct! this is why some things are not showen ..

i never needed to make a closed loop ..

just a lowsley open one ..

this is why the jt works... but they never knew it all ... this goes way beoned what i have just explained ... however .. you can now test it if you like ..

ist

this DOES NOT NEED TO BE A TOROIDE. this does not need to be 1 coil it can be split and used as a supply for a motor if you like... or a ring ..... the mag feilds produced from this cost nothing ... only what is required to switch it .. wich is returned ... there for free but the cost to start it ..

let a single discharge be first considered ... perhaps that fills the cap ... ;) to drive the unit ...

honestly i dont know what more to say about any of this ... :-\ that shows you it is the kick ...

the jt is tuned ... bifillar wires the same length ... turn it on turn it off it flys back ... thats it thats all

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on November 29, 2009, 02:03:49 PM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 29, 2009, 09:30:23 AM

ALL I REALLY NEED TO KNOW I LEARNED IN KINDERGARTEN

(a guide for Global Leadership)

All I really need to know about how to live and what to do and how to be I learned in kindergarten. Wisdom was not at the top of the graduate school mountain, but there in the sand pile at school.
These are the things I learned:

* Share everything.
* Play fair.
* Don't hit people.
* Put things back where you found them.
* Clean up your own mess.
* Don't take things that aren't yours.
* Say you're sorry when you hurt somebody.
* Wash your hands before you eat.
* Flush.
* Warm cookies and cold milk are good for you.
* Live a balanced life - learn some and think some and draw and paint and sing and dance and play and work every day some.
* Take a nap every afternoon.
* When you go out in the world, watch out for traffic, hold hands and stick together.
* Be aware of wonder. Remember the little seed in the Styrofoam cup: the roots go down and the plant goes up and nobody really knows how or why, but we are all like that.
* Goldfish and hamsters and white mice and even the little seed in the Styrofoam cup - they all die. So do we.
* And then remember the Dick-and-Jane books and the first word you learned - the biggest word of all - LOOK.

Everything you need to know is in there somewhere. The Golden Rule and love and basic sanitation. Ecology and politics and equality and sane living.

Take any one of those items and extrapolate it into sophisticated adult terms and apply it to your family life or your work or government or your world and it holds true and clear and firm. Think what a better world it would be if we all - the whole world - had cookies and milk at about 3 o'clock in the afternoon and then lay down with our blankies for a nap. Or if all governments had as a basic policy to always put things back where they found them and to clean up their own mess.

And it is still true, no matter how old you are, when you go out in the world, it is best to hold hands and stick together.
[Source: "ALL I REALLY NEED TO KNOW I LEARNED IN KINDERGARTEN" by Robert Fulghum. See his web site at http://www.robertfulghum.com/ ]

I like that

:)

This is off topic but I wish Obama would have studied that list before he made any decisions about the war in Afghanistan.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on November 29, 2009, 02:05:44 PM

@crowclaw
I am wondering if you have ever used the jt as a pulse dynamo in any of your normal EE type designs?
--- oh I must add, and not rectified it?

I believe my experimental circuit (NOT the jeanna's light) is 2 parallel sets of parallel circuits being magnetically driven by the pulses of the basic jt. I removed the bjt light so I am not wasting that, and I am working with series inductors along the line wires of the parallel circuit.
I believe this is very similar to normal house wiring design in many ways.

Each inductor in series seems to be augmenting the voltage output of the adjacent/connected part of the circuit.

If you can shed some light from experience with this I am much obliged.

thank you,

jeanna
[/quote]Hi jeanna,
Not used the JT for this particular application. have used various oscillator / pulse circuits for generating higher output voltages from low input DC sources.
Take a look here... http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_15/4.html

you may find some answers to your question on inductive series / parallel coupling.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 29, 2009, 02:17:57 PM

@xee2,
I went back a hundred posts and compiled some of your posts.
I still have questions and I am going to try to ask them.

Quote from: xee2 on November 28, 2009, 07:53:11 PM
This is a first for me. Filament bulb lit from pickup coil of JT. I am not sure if anyone else has already done this. It doesn't make much sense to do this since the bulb will light directly from the 1.5 volt battery, but it does show it can be done.

I think this is very exciting.
It is another tiny step to producing what substitutes for amps in this secondary made from the pulsing magnetic components of the jt toroid.

Quote
permeability of free space = 1.2566371 Ã— 10-6 (Î¼0)

but I am not sure about the units and they make all of the difference.

See if dividing 10,000 by 1.2 gives your K value for TOR-60

the quotient is this...7957
but tor 60= 4935
So, this leaves me still unsure.

Quote@ jeanna
I think the attached chart shows the effect of different permeability. The W material has a higher permeability than the J material. Z is a measure of inductance per turn. Notice that below 2.5 MHz the high permeability material produces more inductance per turn where as above 2.5 MHz the lower permeability material produces more inductance per turn. The material is selected which gives the most inductance per turn at the frequency of operation. For Joule thiefs, the frequency is in low KHz so the W material is better for JT.

EDIT: The J material will work in JT but it will take more turns than the W material to get the same output voltage.

I wonder, because the jt I am using never goes that fast.
My highest is 208khz
It needs to be able to hold the 'power' then let it snap back very quickly.
The high permeability toroid I bought as such from the goldmine did OK in a test I made yesterday, and it is about the same dims as the tor 60 which I got yesterday. Maybe today will be well used to make 2 that are similar.
I will use the new method I think I discovered last night. I will match the inductance of the primaries then see what the secondaries give me and what frequency,

thank you,

jeanna

edit add...

Thanks crowclaw.
I looked there a little while ago. I was surprised to see it.
But it didn't go very far.
I will add a bookmark.
Many times, I do not know enough to see the answer to an important question. Later, I may be able to use what that site says.
thanks
j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on November 29, 2009, 02:21:53 PM

@ jeanna,

Hi, here's another site you may find interesting to visit:
http://www.tech-systems-labs.com/freesoftware.htm
Notice some info on torroid's etc.May be of some interest!

regards Merv.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 29, 2009, 02:35:08 PM

j

i have designs posted that ramp up ...

wind up ... output wave is off my 20mhz scope... pulse it .. when it slows down pulse it agin ..

simple laps 1" goldmine....

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on November 29, 2009, 02:37:55 PM

Quote from: Gilobob on November 29, 2009, 07:47:14 AM
@FD

If you stop calling people stupid and lunatics maybe then your post won't get deleted......
stupid this stupid that stupid ist... boehoehoe....

I'm sorry this is my first post. I had to read some 1000 pages :P
When I first made a JT I noticed that there was some great potential in it. so I started looking and building. Finally i came here.

Got a JT with a speaker magnet core and can be connected to a USB port.
So I can use a cheap solar phone/ipod charger or just hook it up to my PC. Just now I'm Charging a Big 12V 400A batt. With this JT i can charge all my batts that I got.

Last couple of days I've been fiddling with gadget's circuit. I don't have the big Ultra's. (maybe in some appliances i have, still looking :P) But i have a 5V 1F ultra cap and I put a solar panel garden light circuit with it.

The Run batt is a 1.2V 750 mAh and is still running at 1.257V
I started at 1.297V but first i didn't got the solar circuit and needed to tune it. now its resting at 1.255 -1.267

Thanks for all the long nights reading and reading :)

Made me a new coil. Still thinking how i should run it.

GrtZ and keep on building

Hi Gilobob interesting what you've said that you're charging 12v battery. So just doing a JT with a torroid magnet you said? Just to clarify.
Did you do any circuit with it?
Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 29, 2009, 02:40:05 PM

@ All:

I am back!

After many phone calls and e-mails from my good friends here on the forum, as well as a few e-mails from our host, Stefan, I have decided to return.

I really appreciate the support that came my way during this difficult time. Words can not express my feelings about this at this time. You all are very good folks out there, and I thank you from the bottom of my heart.

I also thank Stefan for stepping in when he was needed and taking action that was very much needed indeed. I know it is easy for us to forget that Stefan actually has other business ventures to tend to and can't watch over this forum like some think he should...I understand this and I hope you guys do too.

My pm's are now off "ignore all" and I am working on restoring all of my settings which may take a little time.

Wilby's post pretty much sums up what I believe we all have been doing here these many, many pages of posts. We have had disagreements yes, and good healthy debates but, the regular members never forgot those simple rules that we have learned in kindergarten. Through these debates and information sharing, some wonderful circuits have been built and shared and, most importantly as I see it, improved upon by other members. This is what we have been doing and I will do everything I can to help it to continue.

So, thank you to all that contacted me and attempted to contact me to share your thoughts about this situation. It helped me to realize that by leaving, not only was I deserting my friends and fellow experimenters, but I was letting those few individuals win, which ruins it for everyone. Together, we will not let that happen.

Stefan was big enough to admit he had made a mistake, and I am too. I made a terrible mistake by leaving and it took my good friends to make me see it. For that mistake, I am sorry. It will not happen again.

And to all of the new folks coming in to join us, if you have read all or most of the posts here from the beginning (Thank you for doing that and joining us Crowclaw) you will see that the past few days is not the way we usually work around here. For some reason, and I believe Jim summed it up pretty nicely, some folks can not stand to see folks getting along, having fun, and enjoying themselves and they feel some deep seeded need to disrupt the proceedings. Well, we have not had to put up with that and, we will NOT put up with that.

So, I beg your forgiveness and say, let's keep up the great experimentation that we have seen here on OUR topic.

Thank you all very much.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on November 29, 2009, 02:42:54 PM

@Bill

Thank , for being back !

FD out and Pirate back before breakfast , not bad for a slow sunday.

Edit A almost forgot ist on good boy mode lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 29, 2009, 02:43:30 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on November 29, 2009, 02:17:57 PM
So, this leaves me still unsure.

Me to. Sorry but I do not know how to find the K value they want in the calculator.

Quote from: jeanna on November 29, 2009, 02:17:57 PM
I wonder, because the jt I am using never goes that fast.

The toroid is only one of the factors that controls the frequency. The higher permeability produce fewer turns for inductances. There is an inductance trade off between high voltage and high frequency, but it is not the permeability itself that changes frequency it is the inductance. You can get the same inductance with a low or high permeability core. It just takes more turns on the lower permeability core.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 29, 2009, 02:53:10 PM

@ Pirate88179

Quote from: Pirate88179 on November 29, 2009, 02:40:05 PM
@ All:

I am back!

:) :) Welcome back. Things got a little wild while you were away. :) :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hartiberlin on November 29, 2009, 02:54:16 PM

Many thanks Bill for coming back.
Your hard work is very much appreciated.

When I am done with my work on some other domains,
I will again have more time to enhance overunity.com
and will install a few new great features and the lastest software updates.

Regards, Stefan.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on November 29, 2009, 02:55:45 PM

@all

We have been at it for one year and 9 days , like a old couple forgetting there birthday celebrations , Hum , not really but the passionate endeavor we all are under ... lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Gilobob on November 29, 2009, 03:01:41 PM

@ Guruij

Yes just with a normal JT circuit.
I didn't have any normal toroid's but had a broken speaker, so I took the magnet from it.
Some weeks ago I got some big speakers, thus very big toroid's :) and a way for me to find out what's the difference with normal JT (just for learning purpose :P)
This is it but its a bit different now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpCATds1TmY

2n3055
1n4007
10k pot
100 ohm R
neon
2 leds (now gone :P)
on/of switch for charging or light

GrtZ

Welcome back Bill :):):):)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 29, 2009, 03:09:34 PM

welcome back BILL 8)

mk1 why in your opinion are we drawen here ? i have been unable to stop working on thease things ... i have yet to come to a good conculsion on that ..

?

through this reserch i have only dug deeper and deeper ... and rediscovered more and more ..

so i dont know what to make of it ....

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on November 29, 2009, 03:12:34 PM

@ Pirate88179

I'm very glad you have returned. The JT topic has (in my opinion) been one of the most focused topics here, with dedicated people.

:D ;D :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 29, 2009, 03:12:54 PM

Quote
The toroid is only one of the factors that controls the frequency. The higher permeability's produce fewer turns for inductances. There is an inductance trade off between high voltage and high frequency, but it is not the permeability itself the changes frequency it is the inductance. You can get the same inductance with a low or high permeability core. It just takes more turns on the lower permeability core.

Thank you.
I will keep that bit
=================

YEAY, BILL'S RETURNED!!
Thank you Bill, we all need you.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on November 29, 2009, 03:15:57 PM

@ist

It's beyond me :o , lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on November 29, 2009, 03:22:38 PM

Here are 2 TOR toroid's used in some of my JT topics going through some happy inductive coupling to celebrate our moderators return.

;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 29, 2009, 03:28:52 PM

Thank you Bill for returning This is your home . I am just a guest .I too will finish what i started or bust . Yes i have a bit of a problem being Dogged and treated like an outcast to death and i said some ,well Awful things i would not want my daughter to say to one of those tormentors . It wasn't the right thing but my fuse is short . I ask you all to please forgive me from Straying off the track and maybe gain a little of whats lost . I already asked the man upstairs to forgive Them and me .

@XEE2 That is a first ! I tried it . I can only get 800 VOLTS !! but its not lighting a bulb yet nor a cfl just a big neon LoVE light bulb .. .I used a goldmine toroid and 60 turns had hit the end so maybe my problem is i started backwards with the remainder of the windings and went over in between turns that were already there ?

@jeanna . I wound that big toroid but i went 420 turns . I did something wrong because i only get like 2 volts ? Maybe 420 is way too many and snuffed out the resonance ?

Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 29, 2009, 03:29:02 PM

nice ...

st

have you done the same with fine and heavy gage ...

?

like the shift ... i bet it uses a lot less... :D

ist

then if you did it 2 ways ... and fired it both ways then you got some wild stuff..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on November 29, 2009, 03:32:08 PM

Quote from: Gilobob on November 29, 2009, 03:01:41 PM
@ Guruij

Yes just with a normal JT circuit.
I didn't have any normal toroid's but had a broken speaker, so I took the magnet from it.
Some weeks ago I got some big speakers, thus very big toroid's :) and a way for me to find out what's the difference with normal JT (just for learning purpose :P)
This is it but its a bit different now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpCATds1TmY

2n3055
1n4007
10k pot
100 ohm R
neon
2 leds (now gone :P)
on/of switch for charging or light

GrtZ

Welcome back Bill :):):):)

Hi Gilobob can you please post the schematic so that I'll be sure when replicating it?
Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on November 29, 2009, 03:33:07 PM

Nope I haven't tried it yet but I was thinking about making it into another topic.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on November 29, 2009, 03:33:10 PM

@stprue

Have you tried it with the coil inside the toroid , or both on one toroid.

@all

I new idea would be to make a motor jt , a regular toroid would not work because the magnet would be attracted to it , i made some jt from 1/2 inch copper tubing that worked real well , like basic jt .

So we could have light and recyclable movement for free , just think of the rodin coil with a sniping magnet on a smaller scale . http://www.youtube.com/user/Lidmotor#p/f/3/Sahi7zDf8Mw

We could make those coil on a card board flat ! or a copper washer ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KpIOC504rI

Think about it !

Mark

I will wind one as soon as a get enough wire for the 12*2*15 = 360 turns it needs ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 29, 2009, 03:36:34 PM

Thank you Xee, Jeanna, stprue, MK, IST, Stefan, Gilobob, I really appreciate it.

stprue:

Wow, the lights got very bright when you held that above the other. Do I see that your wires are wound around the circumference of those toroids? I didn't know we could wind them like that. Are they still bifilar? Or just straight windings?

@ All:

I contacted the supplier of the large toroids that Gadget posted a while back and asked for a quote on them.

I am also filling out a request for some free samples to see if I can get some of these for my Jeanna Light replication. I will keep you posted.

Thanks again everyone.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on November 29, 2009, 03:41:27 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on November 29, 2009, 03:33:10 PM
@stprue

Have you tried it with the coil inside the toroid , or both on one toroid.

@all

I new idea would be to make a motor jt , a regular toroid would not work because the magnet would be attracted to it , i made some jt from 1/2 inch copper tubing that worked real well , like basic jt .

So we could have light and recyclable movement for free , just think of the rodin coil with a sniping magnet on a smaller scale . http://www.youtube.com/user/Lidmotor#p/f/3/Sahi7zDf8Mw

We could make those coil on a card board flat ! or a copper washer ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KpIOC504rI

Think about it !

Mark

It's a good idea Mark, I have made an air coil with 2 windings but that has been posted in the Bloch Wall TPU topic. I got over 300 volts rectified off of coupling alone. I feel that JT and TPU are both good to study and learn from

http://www.youtube.com/user/stprue#p/a/u/0/XipjLmjCSNU

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 29, 2009, 03:45:37 PM

i just came up with a real easy steel ring design ...

mk1 do you think that cutting a long grove in the core where the pick up windings go would help to release from the iron?

if this was the core
------------
l..c...u...t...l
------------

i may have to build it test it and see ... seams to me it should work well
w

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on November 29, 2009, 03:48:49 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on November 29, 2009, 03:36:34 PM

stprue:

Wow, the lights got very bright when you held that above the other. Do I see that your wires are wound around the circumference of those toroids? I didn't know we could wind them like that. Are they still bifilar? Or just straight windings?

That is 1 wire 18AWG wrapped 6 times around the TOR clockwise...each one that is!

I through in a couple of small value caps a 102 and a 221 that is. Not sure if the caps matter yet...still testing.

My power source is 5v @ 1670kHz, but I have no further data because in the video I just posted I blew the fuse in my DMM. I think it was a 20 AMP fuse...not sure how it happened but I think it might have killed my nice DMM.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on November 29, 2009, 03:50:26 PM

@ist

I don't know .

@all

I need suggestion on how to recover the bemf on the jt , i made on with 50 turn each on the jt side ...

We need to learn if the secondary will react favorably to it or not.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on November 29, 2009, 03:54:47 PM

@stprue

The test i have done showed that the coil inside the toroid worked better , it seems to be trapped there , and its not pushed out .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 29, 2009, 04:04:01 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on November 29, 2009, 03:28:52 PM
I wound that big toroid but i went 420 turns . I did something wrong because i only get like 2 volts ? Maybe 420 is way too many and snuffed out the resonance ?

Try reversing the pickup coil leads when you make your voltage measurements. There is only high voltage one way. You are using a diode and cap and DC setting aren't you?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: powercat on November 29, 2009, 04:05:50 PM

welcome back Bill and Gadget :) :) :) :) :) :) cat

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gravityblock on November 29, 2009, 04:09:23 PM

Quote from: jeanna on November 28, 2009, 09:33:16 PM
Could K be flux density?

jeanna

This was asked quite a few posts back, so it may have already been answered. I'm trying to play catch up by going through all the posts. This question is very important in my opinion.

k is the spatial wavenumber, (i.e., the spatial frequency)

A choice of +k gives an internal magnetic field and -k gives an external magnetic field.

It has more to do with the direction of magnetization within a ferromagnetic material (How the magnetic flux is being distributed).

Please refer to this article on wiki for more information on "k". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halbach_array Pay careful attention to the Halbach Cylinder where the concept could play a role here.

We may be able to exploit this to our benefit. Maybe it's already following it to a certain degree.

Hope this helps,

GB

Edit: Here's a video on how the flux is distributed in a simple circular halbach array, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv-9IAj_YnI

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on November 29, 2009, 04:12:30 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on November 29, 2009, 03:54:47 PM
@stprue

The test i have done showed that the coil inside the toroid worked better , it seems to be trapped there , and its not pushed out .

I have been thinking about this after I saw a vid on a rodin coil. The inside current of the coil was really high while the outside current was really low

EDIT:

Here is the vid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1AQ5acpawg&feature=related

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: broli on November 29, 2009, 05:32:13 PM

I tried doing a thread search but it didn't end up good. Stefan if possible can you look into this feature, it would help a lot with for behemoth threads like these.

What I was trying to look for was the term "saturation" and read what people have talked about. So I'm sorry if this is a repeat.

I have read many explanations of the JT and I think all of them use the principal of core saturation. But I have been looking at the specs and started wondering whether the battery could in fact saturate the core before it saturated the transistor. And I believe the answer is no in most cases. I think this is why people have different results using different transistors without changing the setup. For instance jeanna's voltage increased quite a bit with a high current transistor, to me this shows that the core is not being saturated with low current transistors and thus the highest possible voltage is not reached.

There are a few ways to test this with an oscilloscope.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 29, 2009, 05:42:28 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on November 29, 2009, 03:28:52 PM

@jeanna . I wound that big toroid but i went 420 turns . I did something wrong because i only get like 2 volts ? Maybe 420 is way too many and snuffed out the resonance ?

I bet it is shorting somewhere.

First, I must ask if you tried just the jt part, and does that turn on the light in the basic jtl place?
Then If it does, I think you probably have over 1kvolts and there is a breakthrough somewhere in the insulation.

I don't need to remind you that the 30awg radioshack will do that but I have seen many scratches appear in the 27awg too.

If it is 2 volts the spark might be right at the beginning.

Is this a tor-60? or a look alike?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 29, 2009, 05:52:27 PM

Quote from: xee2 on November 29, 2009, 04:04:01 PM
Try reversing the pickup coil leads when you make your voltage measurements. There is only high voltage one way. You are using a diode and cap and DC setting aren't you?

Hi Xee2 . I like you Design .I realize its probably Drawing 200 Ma with that low resistor but still its a start and a first i have seen . I wonder if yours will light two in series ? I think i double phased it by going over the first layer . DID you single layer or double layer ?I used a diode and oled one meter had to change to a fluke with 2000volts max . getting a HV but no push .

Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on November 29, 2009, 05:57:13 PM

@gadget

Winding back and forth , or all the same direction ?

You could tap it at the middle and go pancake style , or use both center tap.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 29, 2009, 06:11:04 PM

@Bill

Quote
I contacted the supplier of the large toroids that Gadget posted a while back and asked for a quote on them.

Could you post this?
I must have missed it.
I have magnetics which made the tor-60, but I missed gadget's post??
jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 29, 2009, 06:14:13 PM

Quote from: jeanna on November 29, 2009, 05:42:28 PM
I bet it is shorting somewhere.

First, I must ask if you tried just the jt part, and does that turn on the light in the basic jtl place?
Then If it does, I think you probably have over 1kvolts and there is a breakthrough somewhere in the insulation.

I don't need to remind you that the 30awg radioshack will do that but I have seen many scratches appear in the 27awg too.

If it is 2 volts the spark might be right at the beginning.

Is this a tor-60? or a look alike?

jeanna

Hi . Its possible it might be shorting . Its also possible i wound it opposite from the others. I have see this be a great big problem doing a hazens coil I am using #26 from a 2500 ft roll I wound off about a 100 ft around a Popsicle stick so its easy to wind.. yes the first thing i checked was normal . Its bright .They are the same toroid you have they came two to a pack on cardboard sealed up in plastic.They are Grey parylene painted with smooth tapered edges ? I'll keep at it until i find what is wrong . Once i have it I'll Dunk it in latex rubber and let it dry .
Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 29, 2009, 06:20:45 PM

Jeanna:

Here is the link: http://www.mag-inc.com/home

I believe the part number is: 48613TC (I believe XEE2 posted this number)

They do not show any pricing, you have to ask for a quote so I think this means they want to know how many thousand you need. So, I asked for a quote on 4 and I also filled out a free sample request for 4. We will see what happens.
I also think XEE2 said this was the "W" material.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 29, 2009, 06:21:31 PM

@ gadgetmall

Quote from: gadgetmall on November 29, 2009, 05:52:27 PM
Hi Xee2 . I like you Design .I realize its probably Drawing 200 Ma with that low resistor but still its a start and a first i have seen . I wonder if yours will light two in series ? I think i double phased it by going over the first layer . DID you single layer or double layer ?I used a diode and oled one meter had to change to a fluke with 2000volts max . getting a HV but no push .

Al

I think jeanna probably has the correct diagnosis - insulation punch through. Most wire is only rated for 300 to 600 volts. If your coil is single layer that is OK. But if it is two layers you will have wires next to each other with more voltage than that. With 400 turns I think you are over 2000 volts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 29, 2009, 06:22:58 PM

Quote from: broli on November 29, 2009, 05:32:13 PM

I have read many explanations of the JT and I think all of them use the principal of core saturation. But I have been looking at the specs and started wondering whether the battery could in fact saturate the core before it saturated the transistor. And I believe the answer is no in most cases. I think this is why people have different results using different transistors without changing the setup. For instance jeanna's voltage increased quite a bit with a high current transistor, to me this shows that the core is not being saturated with low current transistors and thus the highest possible voltage is not reached.

I think you are exactly right that the max voltage is not being reached.

I came across this today in a search for the K thing.
http://info.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Workshop/advice/coils/mu/#sat (http://info.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Workshop/advice/coils/mu/#sat)

So, I think this is right but what we DO run out of... and fast is enough space in the middle of the toroid, which is why that tor-60 was so great. There is a looot of room.
I think the little tor-23 that I have been using since the beginning of this thread could make 1kvolts, if it were not for the center limitations.

jeanna

edit
thanks Bill. That is the same company.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 29, 2009, 06:29:40 PM

@ Pirate88179

Quote from: Pirate88179 on November 29, 2009, 06:20:45 PM
Jeanna:

Here is the link: http://www.mag-inc.com/home

I believe the part number is: 48613TC (I believe XEE2 posted this number)

They do not show any pricing, you have to ask for a quote so I think this means they want to know how many thousand you need. So, I asked for a quote on 4 and I also filled out a free sample request for 4. We will see what happens.
I also think XEE2 said this was the "W" material.

Bill

Part number for the 3.38" diameter toroid is: OW48613TC which is their W material. You should ask who your local distributor is and buy from them. They sell smaller quantities.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 29, 2009, 06:47:24 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on November 29, 2009, 06:22:58 PM
I came across this today in a search for the K thing.
http://info.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Workshop/advice/coils/mu/#sat (http://info.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Workshop/advice/coils/mu/#sat)

Good find. I think that the permeability number of 10,000 for the W material must be the relative permeability, even though that is not what they say. That is the only thing that makes sense. Thus the K value for the calculator would be 10,000 for the W material. Do not forget that they have a 30% tolerance which is a big range.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gravityblock on November 29, 2009, 06:56:16 PM

Quote from: jeanna on November 29, 2009, 06:22:58 PM
I came across this today in a search for the K thing.
http://info.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Workshop/advice/coils/mu/#sat (http://info.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Workshop/advice/coils/mu/#sat)

Did you read post #10392 about "k"? Apparently not. It has nothing to do with flux density or saturation. It has to do with how the flux is distributed in a ferromagnetic material due to spatial frequency, unless "k" and "K" are different.

GB

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 29, 2009, 07:03:01 PM

@Bill
They discontinued that toroid which is why allelectronics had them. They buy overstocks and discontinued. It is the reason I sometimes buy a couple extras on a next order when I like something.
I have bought the little tor-23 by the 20 pack a couple of times.

It is the reason for my searchresearch this weekend. I want people to be able to get a great toroid that will light up those cfls and be able to have a reliable source. But not for $25 which is a quote I have seen. More like $4.
When we know what we want we could perhaps influence some small company to get them if we promise to send people their way.
I have an email out to one of magnetics' distributors. It is too bad allelectronics didn't get the idea. Maybe they would stock it since they are being deluged now since lidmotor put their name on his video.
We will fins a way.

@xee2,
4900 is way more than 30% below 10k but it could be a reason to sell the stock to a jobber like allelectronics.

I do not believe it needs to be 3 inches to work.
I bet 2 inches OD with large enough core diameter will be fine.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on November 29, 2009, 07:05:38 PM

@Bill,

I just crawled outta bed, sunk a few cuppa T's and feel a bit better afta being up until the wee hours of the night :D

Got your PMs Bill, and it's really good to see you back again at the helm and flying the green starry flag, with it's authority.

I see Stefan stepped in, right in the nick of time, great work Stefan and I for one are looking forward to seeing the new features and I an sure the others are likewise.

One thing grabbed my attention through all the previous drama, someone posted they were able to make a torch globe light up, was it's source of energy a Joule Thief? now it takes Volts and amps to make a filament glow, nice going there.

@gilobob, and Croclaw,
Nice to have you along with us,

(now I had better get my big iron ring and turn it into a joule thief).

@ Gadget,
I made some pretty big boo boos myself, you ain't the first, nor will you be the last, it takes a big man to say sorry, and you are still in my top draw of friends, as is everyone on this forum.

---------------------------------------
I just dreamed up the circuit below, maybe someone might like to try it out.
Last Saturday morning I was dredging around the local Dalby scrap mans site and came across a BWD511 10meg cro sitting on the pile of thrown away computer shells, its missing a power lead. I got it for $5 well, if it won't work, some of the parts will come in handy to keep my original BWD 511 cro happy.
I also found 3 old valve radios, most missing valves, but I wanted them for the tuners, tishatang says we need them to "tune" to the earths currents.

hoo roo all

jim

1803 = JT output circuit, use to collect the high spikes
1804 = newest addition to the instrument bench, (don't even know if it works)
1800 = rusty old valve radio chassis (with the goodies)

I just run outta milk, trip to Dalby coming up in a few minutes lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gravityblock on November 29, 2009, 07:15:54 PM

Deleted, sorry

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 29, 2009, 07:18:40 PM

Quote from: gravityblock on November 29, 2009, 06:56:16 PM
Did you read post #10392 about "k"? Apparently not. It has nothing to do with flux density or saturation. It has to do with how the flux is distributed in a ferromagnetic material due to spatial frequency, unless "k" and "K" are different.

GB

Yeright I didn't.
I saw the video then didn't get back.
If you look at the post just above the one I am quoting you will see the calculator from georgia state physics dept website called hyperphysics. (I have spent many hours there.) It is the K that they are referring to that I was asking about. I believe it is not the same thing you are talking about...

but...

And true to the form of this wonderful joule thief topic, someone... you in this case... comes up with something really new and wonderful to stir into the pot.

So, thank you for the reminder. I will look at this.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 29, 2009, 07:21:25 PM

Quote from: jeanna on November 29, 2009, 07:03:01 PM
I do not believe it needs to be 3 inches to work.
I bet 2 inches OD with large enough core diameter will be fine.

2" cores will work. If you can find my old posts, you will see that is what I used first. But I changed to the 3" coil because it is easier to wind. The 5 for $1 Goldmine cores will light a fluorescent tube. It is to bad that the 3" cores are no longer being made. I was hoping that Gadgetmal would stock them.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on November 29, 2009, 07:30:27 PM

Anyone try lighting a flurescent by just taking the output wire and running it alongside the florscent tube. Helps if you place a cup of water down one end of the tube for an antennae termination. No need for a pesky filament to burn out or heat up. Funny thing about electrons is as they are accelerated they have a doppler effect to them. The electron appears to be radiating a frequency like a train blowing a whistle. As the train comes towards you the frequency of the waves observed by your ear rises. When an electron is accelerated the doppler effect makes the electron emit xrays.
As electrons are accelerated out of the mass of the antennae wire lying next to the tube they emit highfrequency emwaves. These emwaves are adsorbed by the gas inside the cfl which reradiates an emwave of lower frequency usually a greenish light. The florescent coating on the inside of the tube absorbs the emwave energy and transmits a more pleasant light with a wider bandwith due to the types of coatings used. Cool white bulbs. Mr.Tesla use to do light shows long before they became popular in the 60's. In the ceiling he would place a length of wire. Then by adjusting the frequency of the "cold cathode" he would cause different wavelengths of em energy to be produced. Different bulbs would have different density and types of gas in them which would absorb the emhighfrequency as it was modulated over different freqs. The filamentless flurescent bulb has been patented and buried for quite awhile so GE can keep selling them there dinosaurs to homedepot and you.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 29, 2009, 07:40:52 PM

These are some he has bigger ones also . I bought two from him. Make sure they are Grey and ask him to stick a Magnet on them . He has some red ones . They are no good . These are Magnetics cores . I may have got the only 3 3/8 . Not sure
@Bill Grab them !!

http://cgi.ebay.com/IRON-POWDER-TOROIDAL-CORE-3-OD-1-7-8-ID-1-THICK-4PC_W0QQitemZ380181228376QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item5884912b58

http://cgi.ebay.com/IRON-POWDER-TOROIDAL-CORE-3-OD-1-7-8-ID-1-THICK-2PC_W0QQitemZ380181227996QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item58849129dc

http://cgi.ebay.com/IRON-POWDER-TOROIDAL-CORE-4-OD-2-1-4-ID-5-8-THICK-2PC_W0QQitemZ360211219044QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item53de430264

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gravityblock on November 29, 2009, 07:50:29 PM

@Jeanna:

I think the k is referring to a core that has an internal magnetic field and not a core where the magnetic field is located on the outside. In a toroid, the flux is inside, thus the k. If it said, "Relative permeablitiy of the core -k = xx,xxx", then the flux would be on the outside and the calculations may be different.

-k means external magnetic field and k means internal magnetic field such as a toroid. This is my best guess at the moment.

This is interesting and I'll keep an open mind that they could be unrelated to each other.

GB

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 29, 2009, 08:19:47 PM

Yes gravityblock,
that seems right. It does stay inside.

@gadget.
Wow look at those prices. It is what I had heard and want to avoid.

It is going to make it really hard for someone to make a 24 or 30 dollar circuit for lighting a cfl. I think some bright colored electronic gadget will win.

BTW, I never took note of the acrylic fill you mentioned.
You say it does not gas out but it gasses in, so I am interested.
I promise to make a bookmark right away this time. ;)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 29, 2009, 08:24:32 PM

Quote from: xee2 on November 29, 2009, 07:21:25 PM
2" cores will work. If you can find my old posts, you will see that is what I used first. But I changed to the 3" coil because it is easier to wind. The 5 for $1 Goldmine cores will light a fluorescent tube. It is to bad that the 3" cores are no longer being made. I was hoping that Gadgetmal would stock them.

I thought I remembered that you were using a 2"
I will skip finding your old posts, but I did save things.

I do not believe the goldmine 5/$1 to be capable of 500v.
but...
It is a good idea to try again because they are so cheap.

I could try out my new winding which is so very powerful.
It will be a good test for it.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 29, 2009, 08:42:30 PM

Here is the two Coils One was Xee2 trying to replicate his filament experiment . Cant light a CFL , blew several Diodes , will light a neon "LOVE Bulb " 800+ is Goldmine 5/$1 . So they will produce high volts with the right transistor .I went over and back on this one because it ran out of room so its double layer. I may just unwrap and see if works without snuffing with overlaping .

Second one is Jeannas light core 420 on secondary tried tuning and winding different way 2 volts max . I dont see any shorts here ?? Hmm? transistor maybe I wrapped some paper and tape over it to hold the secondary still till i get it going. this is single layer wrapped 420 turns . Not getting any volts but BJT works Bright .

@jeanna here is the Clear stuff and the Latex rubber . Get this and the little cubes at www.tapplastics.com . The Clear resin will DEGAS itself so no bubbles will be in the Final Product . The latex Rubber can insulate HV cores and also you can paint it on an object and peel it off and pour Clear Stuff to make a Lucite water clear replica or make a mold of something . . This Clear stuff Amplifies Led light and Protects it . you can in case Solar cells and complete circuits in Cubes ,rectangles balls .whatever ? They will last a lifetime and no little bubbles in it .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 29, 2009, 09:06:30 PM

Thanks gadget,

This is not the same toroid.
Mine is dark charcoal color. Yours has the grey paint.
So, it might be very different.

But if it is not shorting, then maybe the primary is not turning the transistor on (or off)
So, it could be the primary,
or
the transistor,

Is it possible that the primary wires got mixed up and you no longer have the center tapped?
I am not coming up with much here, I know, but 420 turns will get you around 450 volts and more.

Is that a new transistor?

Is the wire scraped off enough? (that is usually my problem)

Maybe I will think of something else.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 29, 2009, 09:12:10 PM

@ jeanna

I looked for some data on 2" cores but did not find much. I did find this, which I am sure is not the best design but shows that a 2" core will light fluorescent tube.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 29, 2009, 09:18:57 PM

Quote from: jeanna on November 29, 2009, 09:06:30 PM
Thanks gadget,

This is not the same toroid.
Mine is dark charcoal color. Yours has the grey paint.
So, it might be very different.

But if it is not shorting, then maybe the primary is not turning the transistor on (or off)
So, it could be the primary,
or
the transistor,

Is it possible that the primary wires got mixed up and you no longer have the center tapped?
I am not coming up with much here, I know, but 420 turns will get you around 450 volts and more.

Is that a new transistor?

Is the wire scraped off enough? (that is usually my problem)

Maybe I will think of something else.

jeanna

O i thought someone said it way gray . O well . I blew My last tip3055 on the 800 volt little one so I need to pick up a few tomorrow . I'll try again then . thanks 4 the help .

Need to put little one to sleep for school . Gnight

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 29, 2009, 09:52:18 PM

OK gadget, let us know.
btw...
Do you have meters?
A LC meter, perhaps or a scope?
I have been finding really good info from this.

@xee2,
Yes, that is the one I was thinking about.
I am glad and you did actually light one as I recall. A 4 inch.

I was able to light a 4 inch with a 1 inch tor-61 from allelectronics.
Funny it has half the needed voltage now. I cannot figure what happened, but I plan to wind another.
This is 45 cents, and if it can do the job, then 'jeanna's light' , which is the result of all of us working together will be a good success.

@All,

I have been making some turns:inductance studies with my toroids.

This latest batch was the klinkers batch, and I am really seeing why I do not like these toroids.

The first is the exception, so I will get that out of the way.

The goldmine 5/$1

2T= 36uH
7T= 411uH

So, These are the inductances that have been working to make good jt's with the other toroids, so I looked at the 5/$1 on the scope, because it has 2 secondaries already wound on it.

So this was a jt with 2T,6T and a 6T pickup
42v
16.6khz
seems good enough.

also
2T,6T, a bunch of green mag wire maybe 25 T
212v
7.69khz
This should easily light a neon but it does not.
This is the kind of thing that makes me not like this. I think for 212 v the frequency needs to be higher, but the wave shape is a long straight line then a triangle then a long straight line.
It might be the lack of sharpness.
OR something else...

'Bad Blue'
This must be a choke.
No inductance until 4T then a tiny bit.
and 7T only gives 8uH .00
I have never mentioned this but no turns meaning the base measurement of the meter is 3uH so you must subtract that to find the real number.
I never bother because I tend to sometimes forget, but in this case I must mention this.

the' choke'

6T 3uH the base measurement therefore 0
19T 20uH
So, to get this to do anything I need to wind 20 turns for the base coil then many more like 60 or 80 for the collector coil. I wasted $36, and that is all there is to it.
------

The numbers I have been using these last 3 days are
~30uH for the base coil, and
~250-275uH for the collector coil
This will give you an idea of how far off these klinkers are from good jt core material.

I hope this helps to keep people from wasting their money.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Magluvin on November 29, 2009, 10:52:55 PM

Hello all

Been checking out what you have going on here and it is very good. Has anyone tried an air core coil for these setups? I read just recently that inductive cores slow down the build and collapse of the mag field. Just wondering if it makes a difference here or not. =]

Magluvin

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on November 29, 2009, 11:06:08 PM

Quote from: Magluvin on November 29, 2009, 10:52:55 PM
Hello all

Been checking out what you have going on here and it is very good. Has anyone tried an air core coil for these setups? I read just recently that inductive cores slow down the build and collapse of the mag field. Just wondering if it makes a difference here or not. =]

Magluvin

i have. here is the post. http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg143373#msg143373
i also have a very tiny aircoil jt where the coils are wound directly on the transistor body.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 29, 2009, 11:12:05 PM

@ jeanna

Just a little education reminder that you may not be thinking about. The inductance of a coil will change when more coils are added to the toroid. All of the coils couple through mutual inductance and each coil adds to the inductance of the others. So if you want to know the inductance of a single coil, it will have to be the only coil on the toroid. However, if you keep all of the other coils open circuit, I think (but am not sure) that they will not add any inductance to the coil you are measuring. You should check that last bit since I am not sure about it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Magluvin on November 29, 2009, 11:23:42 PM

Very cool Wilby
Did you see any advantages vs magnetic cores?

Mags

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 29, 2009, 11:29:56 PM

Quote from: jeanna on November 29, 2009, 07:03:01 PM
@Bill
They discontinued that toroid which is why allelectronics had them. They buy overstocks and discontinued. It is the reason I sometimes buy a couple extras on a next order when I like something.
I have bought the little tor-23 by the 20 pack a couple of times.

Jeanna

Jeanna:

Thanks. Well, maybe they will suggest something similar from my rfq and also my request for free samples? We will see.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 30, 2009, 12:16:13 AM

@ all

If anyone is interested, the OW48613TC is in the 2009 catalog so they seem to still have it available if someone wants to order it.

I found the new link to the design guide if anyone wants to download it: http://www.mag-inc.com/File%20Library/Product%20Literature/Ferrite%20Literature/Magnetics%20SFF%20Catalog3%202_09.pdf

This link is working since I just used it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on November 30, 2009, 12:18:13 AM

Quote from: Magluvin on November 29, 2009, 11:23:42 PM
Very cool Wilby
Did you see any advantages vs magnetic cores?

Mags

higher frequencies, i don't know if that's an advantage, i guess it would depend on your goal. i can't tell you exactly what freq. they were running at. the only scope i have at the moment is my virtins pocket instrument on my dell axim v51 pocket pc. it is limited by the sound card. :(

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on November 30, 2009, 12:18:40 AM

Quote from: Magluvin on November 29, 2009, 11:23:42 PM
Very cool Wilby
Did you see any advantages vs magnetic cores?

Mags

thanks mags,
higher frequencies, i don't know if that's an advantage, i guess it would depend on your goal. i can't tell you exactly what freq. they were running at. the only scope i have at the moment is my virtins pocket instrument on my dell axim v51 pocket pc. it is limited by the sound card. :(

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Magluvin on November 30, 2009, 12:47:04 AM

Wilby

http://www.free-energy-info.com/Smith.pdf
In the pdf, goto page 107 then read, 3. Magnetic/electric relationship.
I could not copy the text from the pdf.
Very interesting how he explains that he gets an increase in volts and amps in his air core transformer.
Let me know what you think. Not sure if it can apply here. It seems that the freq you all are working with that it might.

Mags

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 30, 2009, 12:51:07 AM

So, how is it that I get this every time?
j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 30, 2009, 01:00:29 AM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on November 30, 2009, 12:51:07 AM
So, how is it that I get this every time?
j

I just checked again and it worked for me by clicking the link in my post. Maybe you need to update your Acrobat reader. Other than that I have no idea why it is not working for you. The file size is 2.38 MB.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on November 30, 2009, 01:02:19 AM

question here
i wrap one tor-60
secondarys... back and forth in till i got 700 turns and it got me 125volts on the scope
should i wrap all the way around.. in layers to try to get higher volts...
i got one with 426 turns that gives me 357volts.. one layer
i also ordered some 3055's to see if that helps...
is it that i wrap it right handed...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 30, 2009, 01:06:16 AM

Jeanna:

Here are the search results I got from them:

http://www.mag-inc.com/home/Advanced_Search_Results?pn=48613TC

There are 6 different toroids with that part number and different prefix letters.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 30, 2009, 01:08:05 AM

@ jeanna

The tile of the file is "Magnetics SFF Catalog3 2_09.pdf" put that in Google and you can download it from the site that comes up. I just did this.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 30, 2009, 01:11:30 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on November 30, 2009, 01:06:16 AM
Jeanna:

Here are the search results I got from them:

http://www.mag-inc.com/home/Advanced_Search_Results?pn=48613TC

There are 6 different toroids with that part number and different prefix letters.

Bill

The prefixes are the different materials. We want the "0W" prefix. Part number for the 3.38" diameter toroid is: OW48613TC

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 30, 2009, 01:17:41 AM

Quote from: kooler on November 30, 2009, 01:02:19 AM
question here
i wrap one tor-60
secondarys... back and forth in till i got 700 turns and it got me 125volts on the scope
should i wrap all the way around.. in layers to try to get higher volts...
i got one with 426 turns that gives me 357volts.. one layer
i also ordered some 3055's to see if that helps...
is it that i wrap it right handed...

You cannot do this with a 2N3904.
You do need a 3055
I got better results with a tip3055

I always had worse results wrapping all the way around, but I believe that is what lidmotor did.

Hang on and I will describe my new winding method because it is very stable.

BTW
Can you light a neon with this?

I will be back

@xee2 and Bill
I got it thanks.
I want to download it now bbs.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 30, 2009, 01:23:17 AM

I found part number 8625 here:

http://www.mag-inc.com/products/ferrite_cores/toroids (about 3/4 down the page)

It is only available in the J material and they do not show it any longer in the W.

(The J=5,000u and the W=10,000u)

If they are listing it still in the PDF that Xee posted, that is a good sign.

Just in case anyone does not know an easy way to convert mm to inches...just multiply by .03937 and it will give it to you in inches. To convert inches to mm, multiply by 25.4. Easy. We had to do this all the time in the machine shop.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 30, 2009, 01:29:29 AM

@ kooler

Quote from: kooler on November 30, 2009, 01:02:19 AM
question here
i wrap one tor-60
secondarys... back and forth in till i got 700 turns and it got me 125volts on the scope
should i wrap all the way around.. in layers to try to get higher volts...
i got one with 426 turns that gives me 357volts.. one layer
i also ordered some 3055's to see if that helps...
is it that i wrap it right handed...

I think 700 turns will give you over 3000 volts out. If you are wrapping in layers you may be exceeding the wire insulation spec and shorting between turns. Most wire is rated at 300 to 600 volts. This is not a problem for single layers, but is for multilayer.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 30, 2009, 01:34:30 AM

Xee2:

You think we could really get 3,000 volts out of one of these toroids? Would we need a thicker primary? I was going to try solid copper wire for less resistance on the primary at about 20 ga. We could make a combination Jeanna Light and stun gun.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 30, 2009, 01:40:50 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on November 30, 2009, 01:34:30 AM
Xee2:

You think we could really get 3,000 volts out of one of these toroids? Would we need a thicker primary? I was going to try solid copper wire for less resistance on the primary at about 20 ga. We could make a combination Jeanna Light and stun gun.

Bill

Yes. I was going to make a 1200 turn coil but never got motivated enough to wrap that many turns. I worked out a design to solve the insulation problem (I think). I suggest staying with 80 to 100 turn single layer until you have something working.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 30, 2009, 01:52:24 AM

QuoteYou think we could really get 3,000 volts out of one of these toroids? Would we need a thicker primary? ...and stun gun.

I put my scope away when it read 1400v
I unwound 2 more primary wires and the top should have been around 2k
We need thicker insulation on the pickups- not the primary
The primary is just working the transistor
The shorting is a big problem. Tesla dwelt upon it... he solved it with oil.
Stun the person making it!
end edit

Quote from: kooler on November 30, 2009, 01:02:19 AM
question here
i wrap one tor-60
secondarys... back and forth in till i got 700 turns and it got me 125volts on the scope
should i wrap all the way around.. in layers to try to get higher volts...
i got one with 426 turns that gives me 357volts.. one layer
i also ordered some 3055's to see if that helps...
is it that i wrap it right handed...

Kooler,
Please let me know that you made the primary with 2T and 10T
The end of the 2T goes to the resistor at the base of the transistor.
The 10T goes to the C of the transistor.
And, you need the 3055 and as I said the tip worked a lot better for me.

I will describe the way I wound and I had about 300-350T on my secondary.

start in the middle of the free space of the toroid.
However you wind is ok just wind the same way on all of it, so if you go over the top and through the middle do that everywhere even on the primaries.

So starting in about the middle wind 30 turns progressing to the left.
Then progress 30 more turns to the center and continue 30 more to the far right.

Be careful to place each wire in the space between 2 wires. There will be a place where the wires cross to the next space. Let it be even and let that be on the inside if you can.
This is 90 turns so far.
You are finished with the left side. You will not be going over those wires again.

The final lap has 8 turns in each space.
the other part here is that you really need 32 because you need 30 spaces and not 30 wires. If this is confusing just do it because it will become clear while you are doing it.

OK so each time you cross over one of the wires that is already there, add 8 more in order neatly if possible and being sure to touch the toroid material as much as possible.

I really think it is the transistor.
If you cannot get one of these tip3055 for a while, then make a smaller one in the way I have described and light a string of christmas lights that hang outside with a battery for power. cool.-r.

BTW the one I made for christmas lights has 12 on each lap and only 4 jammed in between the wires on the last lap.
It is on now with a 2N3904 and a 47 ohm resistor and it is making 172v from a total of 84 turns.

Please ask more questions if you need to.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Gilobob on November 30, 2009, 04:58:09 AM

@ guruij
Here is the circuit :) just the core is different then a normal jt circuit. I also remember i had some trouble winding it the right way. I find out more about that when I make the bigger ones. I want to see if there is a difference in winding it north to south or south to north or starting in the middle.

@ sptrue
About the Rodin coil, I made one and placed 2 collectors on it (one outside and one in the middle) then i wound a coil like a toroid over it. I haven't hooked it up yet, I'm waiting for some parts to drive it.

Back to some reading :) allot of post in one night (night for me :P )

GrtZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 30, 2009, 08:25:12 AM

i think the grey coating is epoxy ... and allows for higher voltages..

grey cores max at 2000v befor break down .. according to the maker ..

w material.. your gonna end up blowing something up ... :)

ist!

thought i would EXPAND YOUR MIND TODAY ... :o

does any one know how chris angel can put his arm through sold things .. like glass and walls and that kind of thing ?

can it be done first of all .. i m almost sure it can .. :D

matter is everything .. in the material world .. and all are subject to laws .. so why would this be any diffrent .. basiclly i think i may be able do produce an expairment that could do this.. :D

think about this today ... if you can look through the wall it is because it is not there .. ;)
how could you produce an expairment to make the wall apear not there ? when in 3d it is there .. ?

this may be part of invisibality .. tecknolagy ..

not sure where i herd this but something like 71 diffrent species are arranged .. in areas ... perhaps they have invisability .. onboard .. there was a video .. i posted a little while ago .. about
how to see things ... might be a good first expairment! :) i had a hand shake a few days ago .. b4 i went down for the evening .. ;)

a strange thing happined on the way to the moon ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmjjAPNJknQ

its going down tonight ... were gonna do it right tonight .. ;)
8) expected guest ... WILL NOT ARRIVE .. ;)

were gonna do it right !
a slippery one tryed to sneek on on the freeze plannet ... ya ... they try this every now and then ... they get caught .. what more can i say!
this is the process of conversion of dark engery to light engery .. 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 30, 2009, 11:29:32 AM

@ All:

Guess what? The toroids that XEE2 suggested we use from mag-inc. are on their way!! (OW48613TC) I just received a call from them and they said they are in their free sample inventory and I had asked for 4 of them and they said, no problem. I just gave them a credit card number to cover UPS shipping costs and that was it.

Thank you Gadget!!!

XEE2 was correct as it looks like they still have them and, more importantly, they qualify for their free sample program. What a company.

I just wanted to pass this on.

I suggest that we all go back in these pages and take another look at Gadget's post for the list of companies that offer free samples to experimenters. A lot of us don't have much money to spend on our projects and this seems like a perfect way to acquire the components we need for our devices.

Thank you XEE2 for figuring out the part number we should use. And, once again, Thank you to Gadget for telling us about the free sample programs out there. I have seen these sized toroids (of various properties) selling for $90 each during my searches.

This is really great!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 30, 2009, 12:17:18 PM

@ GADGET ... lol

i remember i dont know a few hundred pages ago you saying if i as in you ... lol ever had a huge free engery device .. i would never give it away for free... can you recall your words .. ? ;D i do ;)

never say never .. :D ;D cuz you never know .. ;D

;)

ist!

i had A SPECIAL meeting 2 nights ago .... WATCH HOW FAST THINGS CHANGE HERE ON EARTH NOW! ;) they just never understood what was going on ... now they do ..

:) :) :) :) :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 30, 2009, 12:23:56 PM

@ Pirate8817

Good news. I hope people do not abuse their offer of free samples. The companies are in business to sell products not to give them away. If they get too many requests they will stop doing it. Since you are on speaking terms with them, please ask who the local distributor is in your area and what the cost of the toroids are in small quantities. That will make them happy and let us know if Gadget, or someone else, can stock the parts for sale when they stop giving out free samples. You might also explain that the seller who was selling these is no longer stocking them.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 30, 2009, 12:41:20 PM

when the proper steps are followed out on earth i will purchise all my cores from III magnetics ...

you see the system of structure must stay in ordor ...

or you get a mess! there will be no mess! 8) beleave me i know all about messes ... ;D ;D

ist!

everyone is EXACTALLY WHERE THEY ARE cuz thats where your suspo to be :) it is a verry intresting place we live in ... ps the kids were trying to be snkeey... wanted to bring .. home a pet ... i said no ... we will not have that here ... and sent it back ... >:( she was not happy ... she got over it ... ;D i had to explain why it was a bad idea ... she hissed and scratched a bit ... but she still loves me and NOW she understands WHY I SAID NO!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 30, 2009, 01:12:48 PM

Quote from: xee2 on November 30, 2009, 12:23:56 PM
@ Pirate8817

Good news. I hope people do not abuse their offer of free samples. The companies are in business to sell products not to give them away. If they get too many requests they will stop doing it. Since you are on speaking terms with them, please ask who the local distributor is in your area and what the cost of the toroids are in small quantities. That will make them happy and let us know if Gadget, or someone else, can stock the parts for sale when they stop giving out free samples. You might also explain that the seller who was selling these is no longer stocking them.

XEE2:

I agree. Good post. I did try to contact a distributor near me first but their website also asked me to fill out a request for quote and had no listed prices. Perhaps I should call them. We do need a good place to buy these from on a reliable basis. I would have been happy to purchase these and I will do so in the future. I am just glad they still have the ones that you indicated we should use.

I felt funny asking for 4 of these not knowing what they might actually sell for. I am sure it is much more than the $3.50 from All electronics. (at least in these quantities)

Thanks,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 30, 2009, 01:34:39 PM

@ kooler

Well I finally made an SCR circuit that I know is working. I guess simple is best. Video attached.

EDT: made some small additions to drawing

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 30, 2009, 02:42:37 PM

Hi all,
I have just been talking with a distributor.
The prices are from 2 cents to 2 dollars!!
I said, just a range because I have no idea and that was the answer.

So, I also said I wanted a sample range so I could try out a variety of sizes and ty[es and permeabilities etc.

All that will be following soon.
Also their minimum order was/ is $30.

Once we can figure the best sizes and types, we can order a supply and make someone have a good business!

jeanna
I

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on November 30, 2009, 02:43:04 PM

i found this video i think its worth the watch ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hF8TI4Mcr94&feature=related

it is called party rock LMFAO I FOUND THE background and the entire design to be a little wild lol ;)

w814

808 ;)

here is another song by the same band .... intresting .. lol the LA LA LA EXPERIENCE :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VgL3NFCg34&NR=1

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 30, 2009, 03:06:46 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on November 30, 2009, 01:12:48 PM
XEE2:

I agree. Good post.

I felt funny asking for 4 of these not knowing what they might actually sell for. I am sure it is much more than the $3.50 from All electronics. (at least in these quantities)

I agree too.
You already saw my post that says these sell for anywhere from 2 cents to 2 dollars, and the person had some idea of the item because I gave the item number.

I also found out that the purpose for the paint is to keep the temperature down in the toroid.

I do not need that.
If I get heat, it will be at the ends of the wires in the form of a heater!

$30 seems a high minimum, but once we know what we want it won't be too bad.

I am thinking if I can extend/apply all the work I have done so far in the' multiple secondaries' project to this bigger item, then it SHOULD be possible to have one lamp unit in each room that turns on all the other lamps in the same room. We will see about that, but it is a very practical application.
AND, if anyone here wants to get involved with this project with me, I again invite collaborators.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 30, 2009, 03:36:34 PM

Jeanna:

On the ones they are sending me (Using XEE2's part number in its entirety) there is no coating of any kind. No epoxy or paint, just bare ferrite. That is what it says on my confirmation order that was emailed to me. Nice job on finding the distributor info and speaking with them. I can't believe these would sell for $2.00 in our small quantities. We could get around a minimum order by pooling our order here if we need to. From what you are saying, we could get like 15 toroids for the minimum order and split them up among us here. Nice work.

***EDIT*** Now I just need to find a mag wire supplier that has longer spools than my local Radio Shack.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 30, 2009, 03:59:24 PM

Jeanna:

One more thing. If you get one of Dr. Stiffler's new boards (SEC-18-1) you can "broadcast" your light into different rooms wirelessly with hardly any additional drain on the primary unit.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on November 30, 2009, 04:31:50 PM

@ All,

To help those who may be newcomers to electronics or have limited technical knowledge but enjoy experimenting:

Although these JT oscillators are very simple in form the whole operating concept depends on many circuit factors that can influence the performance and hence output voltage etc of your circuits. Various device types for instance often present varied results, and one of the main reasons is down to the gain (Hfe) of the device in use. The hfe is the change in base current necessary to influence the change in the devices collector current, this current ultimately is the output switching current at the secondary of the JT with currents in the order of several milliamps (Ma) to several amps for large power devices. The preset control in the base circuit thus has a major influence on the circuits performance by controlling the current gain of the device and likewise the amplitude of the signal across the primary_including a shift in the basic resonant frequency as the controlled parameters of the circuit are altered. It's all about efficiency and logging your results as you experiment. There are many circuit configurations for producing high voltage and power levels from low level input sources, so where possible keep a close eye on the input source current during trials.
Everybody is back on track again... well done Kind Regards

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 30, 2009, 05:31:08 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on November 30, 2009, 03:59:24 PM

I can't believe these would sell for $2.00 in our small quantities. We could get around a minimum order by pooling our order here if we need to. From what you are saying, we could get like 15 toroids for the minimum order and split them up among us here. Nice work.

***EDIT*** Now I just need to find a mag wire supplier that has longer spools than my local Radio Shack.

One more thing. If you get one of Dr. Stiffler's new boards (SEC-18-1) you can "broadcast" your light into different rooms wirelessly with hardly any additional drain on the primary unit.

OK 3 things.
Thanks. I was hoping this would work out like this.
They can sell for $2 because they have a minimum order.
I like this kind of business. It seems more honest to me.

Gobrushless.com
He is a great guy.
He puts up mag wire in lengths up to 1/4 lb, which is just enough for a small bedini motor.
The" newby wire" is a small spool that has lots of wire I forget but it is more than RS and it is cheaper.
I still buy from rs from time to time, but gobrushless has 3 colors of 24, 26,28 awg wire and reasonable shipping. (he sells parts for model airplanes with brushless motors.)

I have been considering Dr Stiffler's thing. I just hate headaches, and sometimes people even the doc say there can be one.
I might still do it...
let me know how you like yours, ok?

========

@crowclaw,
There is an element to this joule thief that almost everyone misses in the beginning.
I am not surprised since there are so many different ideas and designs abounding here.

It is the concept that MK1 first proposed about a year ago.
This is the use of the secondary, which he called 'pick-up'.
The scenario is this:
You make a joule thief and getter humming.
Then you remove the basic joule thief light (=BJTL)
And wind a secondary around the rest of the space of the toroid.

You will get backspikes.
You will get such a tremendous rise in voltage that you will be very surprised.
But that is not the end of the surprise.
Your amps draw will decrease.

"Try it you will like it!!"

About the only not positive thing I can say about using only the secondary is that it usually stops working at about 1.1 volts.
But if you are using rechargeables, that is better for them.
This is the reason everybody should have a single regular jt... so you can really drain a regular zinc carbon battery.
(bedini figured a way to recharge all BUT the ZnC and so even the duracells have become rechargeable.)

Ok are you sold yet?

thanks for your suggestions.
C'mon into the sandbox and play.
Your skills and background are welcome.
(xee2 helps a lot. He is about the only one here with both a 'real' EE/physics education and an open mind.)
===

speaking of xee2...
I went to wallmart today and bought some lights. I saw but ignored those tiny little ones for $1.50 (what is wrong with me?)
But I did get a 20w grow light and a 10w cfl and... I am trying a halogen bulb. It says 12 volts and maybe I will blow it before it turns on and maybe It cannot turn on, but the little 1 volt light xee2 was able to light yesterday stuck in my head, and I must try!!

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on November 30, 2009, 05:35:39 PM

Quote from: Gilobob on November 30, 2009, 04:58:09 AM
@ guruij
Here is the circuit :) just the core is different then a normal jt circuit. I also remember i had some trouble winding it the right way. I find out more about that when I make the bigger ones. I want to see if there is a difference in winding it north to south or south to north or starting in the middle.

@ sptrue
About the Rodin coil, I made one and placed 2 collectors on it (one outside and one in the middle) then i wound a coil like a toroid over it. I haven't hooked it up yet, I'm waiting for some parts to drive it.

Back to some reading :) allot of post in one night (night for me :P )

GrtZ

Hi Gilobob thanks for the schematic. Can you please tell me what coil wire gauge is best for 12v batteries?
Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 30, 2009, 06:02:23 PM

Jeanna:

Thank you for the gobrushless source. I remember that you found a good source of mag wire but I am very glad I don't have to go back to try to dig up your post from "the archieve".

Crowclaw:

Jeanna said it perfectly. We certainly welcome the folks with real electronics education as it helps to keep us on track without reinventing the wheel so to speak. XEE2 has done this for us many times and so have others. Also, as Jeanna said, an open mind is a good thing.

Jeanna has been on us from the beginning to keep track of wires gauges, transistors, resistor ratings, etc. and post them along with our experiments. She has always done this. Now, speaking for myself, I have become better at it thanks to Jeanna's suggestions, but I still have a long way to go. I do document my experiments via Youtube videos pretty well, but again, plenty of room for improvement.

We are glad you are here. Anyone dedicated enough to read the past many pages for hours and hours and hours is bound to be an asset to us all.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: IotaYodi on November 30, 2009, 06:18:37 PM

QuoteNow I just need to find a mag wire supplier

FYI! Scroll down the page for various sizes.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Magnet-Wire-18-Gauge-100-Feet-Coil-Enameled-Copper-200C_W0QQitemZ170411182239QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item27ad4c489f

Ive bought wire from this guy before. Hes selling off all his magnet wire and coils.
http://stores.ebay.com/swords-science-treasures_Magnet-Wire_W0QQ_fsubZ448981012QQ_sidZ285474702QQ_trksidZp4634Q2ec0Q2em322

Bill its a pleasure and relief to see you back!
Your contributions and support are a big plus for this forum.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 30, 2009, 06:44:06 PM

Hi everybody,
I just had some good fun!

First
20wcfl+7wtube in series.
then
20wcfl+15wtube in series
and finally
20wcfl+20wtube in series.

My first experiment with my newest bulb.
The last pic is the newest 20w tube.

OH also, this is with a TIP31c I am trying out from allelectronics.
It looks good to me!

The 20w tube growlight is a very cool sweet barely on but it IS on.
So, that is a total of 20w+20W= 40w
I kept the cfl on and added the different tubes.

Have a look:
edit.. compare the size of the tubes to the breadboard.
jeanna

add 1 more
This is the new 20w F Tube by itself running on the Big Gold.
j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Doug1 on November 30, 2009, 07:26:46 PM

Mag wire scroungers ,when ever Im looking for wire i go to the local electric motor shops where they repair commercial electric motors and offer to purchase the left overs at the scrap price which is what they sell it off at to be recycled with the wire they shred off burnt motors.
Im not talking about little bitty radio shack size rolls.The rolls I get still have many pounds of wire left on them sometimes they have 15lbs left on a roll.The rolls are really big honking ones like the type you would see used to stock rope. Plus these shops also save caps ,stock cap, collect caps. Boxes and boxes of caps of all sizes. The place I used to go to sells mixed boxes of caps by the pound.
Check out your local electric motor shops.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Gilobob on November 30, 2009, 07:29:11 PM

@ guruij

I used UTP network cable, I think it is 0.5 mm. You can use 0.3 mm as well.
Made these today with 0.3 mm :P run on half of the batt pack and charges the other :)
One 10 mm toroid out of a Ikea CFL and a 6.5 mm toroid
Going to bed now :)

GrtZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 30, 2009, 07:41:14 PM

@ kooler

Good thing I bought 50 of these bulbs. The first one now has a vaporized filament that made a very bright flash, like a camera flash, when used in this circuit.

EDIT: drawing is wrong, they are actually 25 amp pulses (before the bulb blows).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 30, 2009, 10:42:43 PM

Wow, xee2, maybe you need more in series!
That is cool to have that kind of problem with a filament light.

==============

@All,
I just modded the 13w cfl I bought the other day but didn't use.

...then the 10wcfl I bought today so I might have a true replication of lidmotor's jeanna's light.

They are both a lot brighter than the 20w, but they shed no more apparent light in the room than it does.
I cannot put these in series at all.
So, there can be only 1 cfl per circuit so far.

I am glad I did this, because I am now getting the range of dimming that he was getting from the 20 ohm rs dimmer switch at the + battery end.

I will do a duration test on this one as well.

I got 2 alkalines with my new camera and this will give one of them a job to do.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 30, 2009, 10:53:24 PM

Jeanna:

Thanks again for that link. I ordered 1/2 pound of mag wire (28 gauge, 1 red one green) I think this will work just fine because, in the specs, the "newbie" wire has a much thicker insulation for beginners to wind with to prevent shorts. Now, I don't know the dielectric strength of the urethane insulation (I guess I could look it up) but, simply, thicker is better to insulate high voltage at whatever value. I think this will work great. My primary is going to be insulated solid copper wire (low resistance) 20 gauge that I bought by mistake a while back thinking it was stranded.
My Jeanna Light will be running soon! (I hope) today, I also bought a 13 watt cfl for my box. That was the smallest the store had.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 30, 2009, 11:15:30 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on November 30, 2009, 10:53:24 PM
Jeanna:

Thanks again for that link. I ordered 1/2 pound of mag wire (28 gauge, 1 red one green) I think this will work just fine because, in the specs, the "newbie" wire has a much thicker insulation for beginners to wind with to prevent shorts.

It may be the reason I had no problem with the over 1400v I was getting the other day,?

Quote...
My Jeanna Light will be running soon! (I hope) today, I also bought a 13 watt cfl for my box. That was the smallest the store had.

Excellent!

Now, I am waiting for the box.
If it is a good one, I will share the specs.

I hope to see a picture of this tonight!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 30, 2009, 11:16:59 PM

Quote from: xee2 on November 30, 2009, 07:41:14 PM
@ kooler

Good thing I bought 50 of these bulbs. The first one now has a vaporized filament that made a very bright flash, like a camera flash, when used in this circuit.

EDIT: drawing is wrong, they are actually 25 amp pulses (before the bulb blows).

Xee2 Very Nice . I have to ask what is being drained from the battery . Its got to be over 300 milliamps . In this case a 2000mah battery will only last a few hours . No ? What would be the advantage Verse running the bulb directly with the AA battery ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 30, 2009, 11:18:54 PM

Jeanna:

Here is my box....waiting. The cfl in the photo is a 60 watt that is just sitting there for the photo. I will use a 13 watt.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on November 30, 2009, 11:26:34 PM

@gadget
69-101 ma
under load

thats my test results
check these videos http://www.youtube.com/user/koolerization (http://www.youtube.com/user/koolerization)
the first pulls 89ma's
sec pulls 101 ma's

@xee2
i ordered some more parts three days ago
mosfets that will trigger with a 1.5volts
and some sidactors and more better transformers
hoping i can get the charge time down
i'm almost got a unmodded 13watt cfl to burn steady
watching it blink real bright and fast is enough to keep going on this circuit

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 30, 2009, 11:33:03 PM

@Bill,
I mean lit up! ;D

@Xee2,
Do you really have that secondary connected back to the battery?

@Kooler,
If it is just a plain secondary it usually does not draw more than the transistor, but with a connection across the transistor it might.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on November 30, 2009, 11:46:37 PM

without the second stage the jt don't draw but 45ma lighting a cfl
but when i use the secondary to charge my cap or cap's that is when it doubles it draw

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 01, 2009, 12:18:38 AM

Quote from: kooler on November 30, 2009, 11:46:37 PM
without the second stage the jt don't draw but 45ma lighting a cfl
but when i use the secondary to charge my cap or cap's that is when it doubles it draw

I looked at it a little while ago...
Is the circuit as xee2 has drawn it with the secondary going into the battery?

That probably makes it not much of a transformer; and, all the amps in the battery can get involved if it is.

I guess it would be more like a third primary than a real secondary, right?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on December 01, 2009, 12:21:45 AM

Quote from: Doug1 on November 30, 2009, 07:26:46 PM
Mag wire scroungers ,when ever Im looking for wire i go to the local electric motor shops where they repair commercial electric motors and offer to purchase the left overs at the scrap price which is what they sell it off at to be recycled with the wire they shred off burnt motors.
Im not talking about little bitty radio shack size rolls.The rolls I get still have many pounds of wire left on them sometimes they have 15lbs left on a roll.The rolls are really big honking ones like the type you would see used to stock rope. Plus these shops also save caps ,stock cap, collect caps. Boxes and boxes of caps of all sizes. The place I used to go to sells mixed boxes of caps by the pound.
Check out your local electric motor shops.

You may even find an old variable ac voltage supply or variac hanging around. It is a torroidal transformer that has one winding wound around the core. A sliding brush determines how much of the torroidal winding is primary and how much is secondary. This is all low frequency stuff so the current levels are high so the core would need a pretty good sized battery to work with. The impedance of the circuit to high frequency could be overcome with the use of series capacitors in both windings input and output but the core of the autotransformer would have a lot of hysterisis losses due to the hf. Well anyway it kinda shows you what is going on in the jt. The jt is an autotransformer type setup working off of pulsed dc which is what you get when you rectify ac. Then they use capacitors and torroidal chokes to change it into cleaner dc when they want a nice bias level in an amplification circuit or battery charging for that matter. The torroidal choke impedes the ripple riding the dc current. The choke takes the ripple and changes it into heat in the core of the choke. The torroidal transformer takes the ripple and transforms it into usable voltage.

Mod

The jt is also very efficient. As soon as induced voltage appears on the secondary output it shuts down the primary bias and limits any wasted current going into core saturation. Now the majic can begin by imposing these highfrequency oscillations on different things to get different reactions.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 01, 2009, 01:52:07 AM

Jeanna:

You mean like this? (Ha ha, amazing what you can do with ms paint)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 01, 2009, 02:19:06 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on November 30, 2009, 11:16:59 PM
Xee2 Very Nice . I have to ask what is being drained from the battery . Its got to be over 300 milliamps . In this case a 2000mah battery will only last a few hours . No ? What would be the advantage Verse running the bulb directly with the AA battery ?

These are just test to see what kind of performance I can get out of the SCR. Goal is to add ignition coil and generate very high voltages.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 01, 2009, 02:22:03 AM

Quote from: jeanna on November 30, 2009, 11:33:03 PM
@Xee2,
Do you really have that secondary connected back to the battery?

Yes. But I think it will work either way.

EDIT: Whoops, I thought it was, but I just check and it is not. Thanks for asking. I want to keep accurate records of my tests.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 01, 2009, 02:24:36 AM

Jeanna:

I just found this while searching for TIP3055's: (From RS's Website)

[5 of 6 customers found this review helpful] Its really a MJE3055By TIP-less(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.radioshack.com%2Fpwr%2Fengine%2Fimages%2Fbadge_vr_en_US.gif&hash=31c094186382c94121fd8be4a0abde25ecfd64bb) (//http://javascript:POWERREVIEWS.common.showSmallPopup('http://www.powerreviews.com/legal/badge_definitions_en_US.html',%20580,%20460)) from Iowa on 3/29/2008Cons:IncompatibleComments about RadioShack TIP3055 NPN Transistor:
The transistor works fine, but its NOT a TIP3055... its a MJE3055, which is rated at 75W not 90W.Was this review helpful to you? Yes (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062611#) / No (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062611#)- You may also flag this review (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062611#).

I ended up ordering 10 from Digikey as they were cheaper and, hopefully, TIP3055's.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: FreeEnergy on December 01, 2009, 07:10:35 AM

so what i am getting is that you can use a core-less toroid? just use the coil itself?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 01, 2009, 10:57:29 AM

Quote from: FreeEnergy on December 01, 2009, 07:10:35 AM
so what i am getting is that you can use a core-less toroid? just use the coil itself?

Cores are not needed. But the permeability of the core reduces the number of turns required for a given inductance. The higher the permeability is the fewer the turns that will be needed.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 01, 2009, 01:57:47 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 01, 2009, 02:24:36 AM
.... RadioShack TIP3055 NPN Transistor:
The transistor works fine, but its NOT a TIP3055... its a MJE3055, which is rated at 75W not 90W.Was ...

I ended up ordering 10 from Digikey as they were cheaper and, hopefully, TIP3055's.

Bill

Thank Bill.

I looked them both up and there is a dizzying amount of information because so many different manufacturers make these.
I am glad the mje called tip3055 from rs worked so well.
I am also glad the tip31 from allelectrronics worked well.
I guess I had better try the rs version of the tip31 today along with both others to make a personal comparison.

The good news is that so far they are all lighting the cfl.

And, from my experience, the little 10w cfl which I found at wallmart in a 3 pack behaved like lidmotor's jeanna's light.
I could get the rheostat to turn it way down with much more movement in the knob than the 20 watt, so I could be more precise, and I liked that part.

Now, each one of those cflights comes with 2 transistors.
They are different too.
I am not sure what they are doing, but the 10 watt has a little plastic half round in 2 places, and the 20w has one with the built-in heat sink.
These might be useless to us since the design assumes a starting voltage of 110v sinusoidal, but someone who loves to sort through the junk piles might be able to help tell us if these components are useful here.

(Oh, and... MS paint won't light your table... ;D)

jeanna

edit add

Quote from: FreeEnergy on December 01, 2009, 07:10:35 AM
so what i am getting is that you can use a core-less toroid? just use the coil itself?

There is really only one way to know.

jeanna

edit add2
So xee2, is it this?
j
fixed per xee2

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 01, 2009, 02:46:22 PM

Quote from: jeanna on December 01, 2009, 01:57:47 PM
Thank Bill.

I looked them both up and there is a dizzying amount of information because so many different manufacturers make these.
I am glad the mje called tip3055 from rs worked so well.
I am also glad the tip31 from allelectrronics worked well.
I guess I had better try the rs version of the tip31 today along with both others to make a personal comparison.

The good news is that so far they are all lighting the cfl.

And, from my experience, the little 10w cfl which I found at wallmart in a 3 pack behaved like lidmotor's jeanna's light.
I could get the rheostat to turn it way down with much more movement in the knob than the 20 watt, so I could be more precise, and I liked that part.

Now, each one of those cflights comes with 2 transistors.
They are different too.
I am not sure what they are doing, but the 10 watt has a little plastic half round in 2 places, and the 20w has one with the built-in heat sink.
These might be useless to us since the design assumes a starting voltage of 110v sinusoidal, but someone who loves to sort through the junk piles might be able to help tell us if these components are useful here.

(Oh, and... MS paint won't light your table... ;D)

jeanna

edit addThere is really only one way to know.

jeanna

edit add2
So xee2, is it this?
j

Hello Jeanna Are these marked COOL WHITE . or Daylight > I assume cool white .
Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 01, 2009, 04:11:16 PM

Quote from: FreeEnergy on December 01, 2009, 07:10:35 AM
so what i am getting is that you can use a core-less toroid? just use the coil itself?

See lidmotor utube video with tunable inductor. He starts with coreless coil.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 01, 2009, 04:13:53 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on December 01, 2009, 01:57:47 PM
So xee2, is it this?

Yes. But, current is theoretically 25 amps max since the zenered voltage is 100 volts and the resistance of bulb and SCR is about 4 ohms. I=E/R

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 01, 2009, 04:21:55 PM

Hi gadget,
It doesn't say on this package afaik.

It is GE yellow at the top and blue at the bottom of the package.
I agree, it would probably say if it were warm.

But it is a warm color, when you are accustomed to superbrights.

@all,
I have spent some time with that magnetics catalogue.
They have 3 size candidates that I want to check out in 3 different permeabilities.... just cuz.

1 1/2" and 2 1/2" and the one we have 3 1/3"

I am thinking this might be able to go smaller and therefore be a nice light unit with just the right amount of volts.
It might help with the squeal too.
If it is smaller it should have a higher frequency just naturally and in my mind this will allow a lower permeability to do the same thing... (or maybe I have it backwards) but there is only one way to know.

I am seeing the saturation like the capacitance.

A too small cap does nothing. It is always open and you do not even see it.
A too big cap and the thing takes too long to fill up and slows the frequency.

the saturation that happens too fast seems like the currents would just go through too fast and no real advantage comes about.
A too slow saturation low permeability and it won't even move .

So, I want to try 3 sizes in 3 permeabilities.

Any ideas?

jeanna

thanks xee2, I fixed it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on December 01, 2009, 04:23:57 PM

@ Jeanna,
Forgive me if this idea has already been looked at and I've missed it.
The basic JT circuit primary winding produces nice negative pulses as does the secondary of course to turn off the base. Now using this winding to feed it's pulse output into the cathode of a diode, and likewise feeding the secondary winding pulses at the collector into the anode of a separate diode, then using a .001uf capacitor to smooth out the pulses connected across the open ends of the diode pair which are now floating and not grounded to the rest of the circuit, the result will be an increased DC output! If the primary and secondary bif windings are an equal number of turns, the output unloaded will be almost doubled!! Sorry if it's already been tried otherwise may be worth experimenting with?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 01, 2009, 04:31:36 PM

@Crowclaw,
You know what I always say don't you?
There is only one way to know.

:D,
jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gravityblock on December 01, 2009, 07:03:47 PM

This may be the reason for not achieving the maximum voltage. Heinrich Barkhausen discovered that a slow, smooth increase of a magnetic field applied to a piece of ferromagnetic material, such as iron, causes it to become magnetized, not continuously but in minute steps. These magnetization jumps are interpreted as discrete changes in the size or rotation of ferromagnetic domains.

A coil of wire wound on the ferromagnetic material can demonstrate the sudden, discontinuous jumps in magnetization. The sudden transitions in the magnetization of the material produce current pulses in the coil.

The Wiegand effect is a macroscopic extension of the Barkhausen effect as the special treatment of the Wiegand wire causes the wire to act macroscopically as a single large magnetic domain. The small high-coercivity domains in the Wiegand wire outer shell switch in an avalanche, generating the Wiegand effect's rapid magnetic field change.

Because the voltage induced by a changing magnetic field is proportional to the rate of change of the field, a Wiegand-wire core can increase the output voltage by several orders of magnitude as compared to a similar coil with a non-Wiegand core.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiegand_effect
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barkhausen_effect

GB

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 01, 2009, 07:14:04 PM

Cool gravity block,

I do not understand why you posted that here, but, I am glad you posted it.
It certainly belongs on the stubblefield threads.
I will post a quote there.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: broli on December 01, 2009, 07:19:04 PM

I agree it's not directly related to the joule thief topic but it is related to the general concept. Namely creating a very sudden and strong change in magnetic field/current.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gravityblock on December 01, 2009, 07:44:06 PM

Quote from: broli on December 01, 2009, 07:19:04 PM
I agree it's not directly related to the joule thief topic but it is related to the general concept. Namely creating a very sudden and strong change in magnetic field/current.

Correct, which could be beneficial in a lot of areas of this forum, including the JT.

@Jeanna: I posted it here since some have suggested we may not be reaching the maximum voltage and this concept could be helpful in reaching a higher voltage due to the rapid change in the magnetic fields. It's not my intention on distracting the thread. My philosophy is not leaving any stones unturned. Squeeze every bit of energy out of a system with what is currently possible and known.

GB

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 01, 2009, 07:54:22 PM

GB:

I agree, especially the way you worded the last part of your post.

"Squeeze every bit of energy out of a system with what is currently possible and known."

Well said.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 01, 2009, 08:15:02 PM

GB
I apologize for making you sound wrong,
My intent was to jump for joy, because we have been needing this information for a while on the stubblefield threads.

At 1400v, I am happy.
There are more things to do here, but they will take me into many different directions.
Right now, I am focusing on finding a source for the toroids so others can make simple and easy lamps.

Thank you for your input,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on December 01, 2009, 08:40:15 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 01, 2009, 02:24:36 AM
Jeanna:

I just found this while searching for TIP3055's: (From RS's Website)

[5 of 6 customers found this review helpful] Its really a MJE3055By TIP-less(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.radioshack.com%2Fpwr%2Fengine%2Fimages%2Fbadge_vr_en_US.gif&hash=31c094186382c94121fd8be4a0abde25ecfd64bb) (//http://javascript:POWERREVIEWS.common.showSmallPopup('http://www.powerreviews.com/legal/badge_definitions_en_US.html',%20580,%20460)) from Iowa on 3/29/2008Cons:IncompatibleComments about RadioShack TIP3055 NPN Transistor:
The transistor works fine, but its NOT a TIP3055... its a MJE3055, which is rated at 75W not 90W.Was this review helpful to you? Yes (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062611#) / No (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062611#)- You may also flag this review (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062611#).

I ended up ordering 10 from Digikey as they were cheaper and, hopefully, TIP3055's.

Bill

Bill

I was thinking of posting something about the same subject when I came across your post .

I got my original TIP3055 at radioshack
I just got 10 from Egoldmine When I first saw them I thought that they had shipped me the wrong transistor ......the ones they shipped are at least twice the size of the radioshack version .
It does say TIP3055 right on them ......the manufacturer is ST

I do still like the radio shack version .......it has lasted several times longer than any of my 2N3055s did

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 01, 2009, 11:30:30 PM

@ resonanceman

Quote from: resonanceman on December 01, 2009, 08:40:15 PM
Bill

I was thinking of posting something about the same subject when I came across your post .

I got my original TIP3055 at radioshack
I just got 10 from Egoldmine When I first saw them I thought that they had shipped me the wrong transistor ......the ones they shipped are at least twice the size of the radioshack version .
It does say TIP3055 right on them ......the manufacturer is ST

I do still like the radio shack version .......it has lasted several times longer than any of my 2N3055s did

My TIP3055 are from ST and the leads are to big to fit in my breadboard sockets. Since the Radio shack is smaller, does it have smaller diameter leads also? That would be an advantage in my opinion.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on December 02, 2009, 12:44:04 AM

Quote from: xee2 on December 01, 2009, 11:30:30 PM
@ resonanceman

My TIP3055 are from ST and the leads are to big to fit in my breadboard sockets. Since the Radio shack is smaller, does it have smaller diameter leads also? That would be an advantage in my opinion.

Xee

Yes I am sure it will fit .

I did not have a spare one to try ...........but it seems to be a standard size .......I tried a MOSFET the same size and it slipped right in

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on December 02, 2009, 12:59:24 AM

Has anyone got any good how-to information about transistor internals, for instance, testing the transistor with a basic multimeter to figure out it's operating potentials, etc.

In one of my tests, I ran the current contra-intuitively.. using two sources, i ran one NPN transistor with connection B+ to E- to open the channel, and another E+ to C-.

This supposedly works toward the realm of negistors, but I don't have the equipment to test ideas.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on December 02, 2009, 01:31:54 AM

Anyone thought about using a Wiegand-wired toroid? ..or just Wiegand-wire in general?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: FreeEnergy on December 02, 2009, 01:59:20 AM

Quote from: crowclaw on December 01, 2009, 04:23:57 PM
@ Jeanna,
Forgive me if this idea has already been looked at and I've missed it.
The basic JT circuit primary winding produces nice negative pulses as does the secondary of course to turn off the base. Now using this winding to feed it's pulse output into the cathode of a diode, and likewise feeding the secondary winding pulses at the collector into the anode of a separate diode, then using a .001uf capacitor to smooth out the pulses connected across the open ends of the diode pair which are now floating and not grounded to the rest of the circuit, the result will be an increased DC output! If the primary and secondary bif windings are an equal number of turns, the output unloaded will be almost doubled!! Sorry if it's already been tried otherwise may be worth experimenting with?

******** EDIT **********

something like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VuA1GWw0dI
except the guy is switching the batteries manually by hand. the manual part can be eliminated by using an automatic timed switch of some sort. you can't see much detail in the video but it is something like you're saying possibly. in the video it sounds like his charging the battery by hooking it up to the LED terminals. Either you have a Joule Thief feeding itself or two separate Joule Thiefs feeding each other. i could be wrong.

******** EDIT **********

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on December 02, 2009, 02:16:36 AM

so for some wierd reason i did what i never do, math. the speed of light = 299 792 458 m / s according to google. and einstien said e-mc2, well we are not calculating the mass of electricity here but i believe perhaps there is a similiar mathematical equasion which i am still working on to explain free energy from magnetism and it will involve the speed of light. the reason for speed of light is that apparently according to physics any object traveling at the speed of light once reaching the speed of light has infinite mass. this is obviously impossible to accelerate but with magnetism it wouldnt seem that we are eccelerating mass but a massless force or pure energy and if so then the infinite mass of a massless object has a formula of mass = 0 x infinity which is 0. this should be easy to accelerate. now lets assume magnetism is massless, and lets assume that magnetism which is calculated in gauss is now egual to its speed or frequency because it no longer has mass to depend on energy for so it must get it from speed. at this time we can assume that the speed is determined by the mass which accelerated it since magnetism is assumed to come from the spinning of atoms and when atoms align the create a flow of magnetism. so we could say that gausse = mass x ?. obviously if we include the speed of light here we get something that makes magnets as powerful as the next atomic bomb so i havent finished it yet but what if we could accelerate magnetism to the speed of light? what would happen then? lets say for one moment that we had a massless air core but we ran a electrical current through it at the frequency of light since the electron travel down a wire is theoretically instantaneous we should be able to reach 299,792,458,000 pulses a second or 299.8ghz magnetism at the speed of light i theorize is either impossible or bound to have unlimited energy.

of course if we cant get magnetism at the speed/freq of light then we could always try to find magnetisms resonate frequency. if the resonate frequency of glass makes it vibrate in accelerated levels till it destructs then it should produce unlimited sources of magnetism = electricity.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on December 02, 2009, 07:24:41 AM

imagine if you will a giant capacitor single plate all by its lonesome fully charged. What do we need to do to get it to discharge. Form a dielectric coating over this giant plate. Then a conduit or hole through the dielectric. Fill the whole with some conductor and attach to uncharged metal plate. The Earth comes precharged.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 02, 2009, 08:34:23 AM

well i get to post agin ...

hummm

i started building

i started 2 things last night i dont know if i should even share .. as they will probally not allow me to post it

i set the sceen STRIGHT ...and i get booted ... anyhow those that dont know .. i released my HARMONIC TRANSFORMER YESTERDAY .. just BASIC OPERATION explanation .. guess it works eh?

w

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on December 02, 2009, 11:29:12 AM

A bunch of wonderful brain farts today I see.

I was thinking, that large caps like to discharge fast, just as they were intended for applications which normally bear a large load across their terminals - in systems with use for large currents, like engine starters, etc, or where there is need to maintain a certain ampere flow in a given system.

It seems reasonable to say that the discharging of a capacitor of equal voltage characteristic of a battery, will have higher ampere characteristics then that of the said battery because the battery has a higher internal resistance than that of the capacitor.

If we're to use a large capacitor as source, then we should design for this purpose.

I recently tested my circuit to see what two AA batteries in parallel would do...

After frying my multimeter's fuse... I determined that there were only voltage gains, the current used by the circuit was the same, which I thought was strange... more later.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 02, 2009, 12:02:38 PM

wate till you see what im building you will SH!FT!

and thats no joke ...

i can borrow ALL the current ... yet only shift a small amount .. to the out put cap ... and get the HUGE COLAPSE FROM ALL THE CURRENT...

i hate leaveing people in a clould of dust ......

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on December 02, 2009, 01:33:03 PM

Quote from: sparks on December 02, 2009, 07:24:41 AM
imagine if you will a giant capacitor single plate all by its lonesome fully charged. What do we need to do to get it to discharge. Form a dielectric coating over this giant plate. Then a conduit or hole through the dielectric. Fill the whole with some conductor and attach to uncharged metal plate. The Earth comes precharged.

SParks

are you talking about something like this ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on December 02, 2009, 01:35:08 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on December 02, 2009, 11:29:12 AM

I recently tested my circuit to see what two AA batteries in parallel would do...

After frying my multimeter's fuse... I determined that there were only voltage gains, the current used by the circuit was the same, which I thought was strange... more later.

@ jadaro2600

Two AA batteries in parallel will double the current! the voltage remains the same. Two AA batteries in series will double the voltage, while the same current flows through both cells and hence does not increase.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 02, 2009, 02:34:59 PM

here is what i whipped up last night ...

thats right it is tuned 4 goldmines .. 1"

2 815 toroides 2 chokes

ist

check out what else i built last night with tuned coils ... how might this work ? 1 more question ...
if i times the fat coil by 9 and relocated it what do i have ?

that then rasies the question what happins if i send PULSE THROUGH THE CENTER OF CORE 1
will it then end up in coil 9 ? assumeing 9 is across the room ... ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on December 02, 2009, 03:38:42 PM

Quote from: crowclaw on December 02, 2009, 01:35:08 PM
@ jadaro2600

Two AA batteries in parallel will double the current! the voltage remains the same. Two AA batteries in series will double the voltage, while the same current flows through both cells and hence does not increase.

Obviously.

I was under the impression that current dictates the strength of the field and the resultant voltage is proportional to this.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 02, 2009, 03:54:18 PM

Jadaro:

I have not seen that to be the case either. I have run these JT's from AAA, AA and C and D batteries. All the same voltage but many more mAhs in the bigger bats of course. All my JT circuits did was to run a whole heck of a lot longer but other than that, I did not see any improvements with the additional available amperage. I just had a thought though...available amperage. Perhaps even though the amps were there, they were not drawn upon by our circuits as we have them. So, you still may be right because since my JT's did not draw the amps, I can't really say what the effect would be on the field and hence the output if it did.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on December 03, 2009, 05:23:17 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 02, 2009, 03:54:18 PM
Jadaro:

I have not seen that to be the case either. I have run these JT's from AAA, AA and C and D batteries. All the same voltage but many more mAhs in the bigger bats of course. All my JT circuits did was to run a whole heck of a lot longer but other than that, I did not see any improvements with the additional available amperage. I just had a thought though...available amperage. Perhaps even though the amps were there, they were not drawn upon by our circuits as we have them. So, you still may be right because since my JT's did not draw the amps, I can't really say what the effect would be on the field and hence the output if it did.

Bill

@ Bill,

The more batteries you add in parallel of the same voltage will increase the available current capacity, how much current is drawn from the cells depends on the demand of the load circuit. Say the circuit draws 50mA adding more cells in parallel will not make any difference to the current demand. As you have already found out, because you have increased the current capacity by adding more cells in parallel your run time lasts much longer due to the extra available current.

@ Jadaro,

Sorry mate... did not intend to insult your technical intelligence regarding parallel/series combinations. Misunderstood where you were going with your question. The basic joule thief oscillator is very simple in design and self oscillating around the feedback transformer winding. The circuit resonances and impudence's can be influenced very much by secondary loads, which can effect the output signal amplitude and working frequencies off resonance. The results can affect input current draw from source (AA's etc) where in certain circumstances additional circuits could influence the oscillator away from it's resonant frequency resulting in an actual decrease in source current, but as a result have made gains elsewhere! Jeanna has made much progress through her many experiments using additional inductor combinations etc. There is nothing magical about oscillator circuits... it's just amazing what can be accomplished through experimenting in advance from such a simple circuit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on December 03, 2009, 09:52:19 PM

Quote from: crowclaw on December 03, 2009, 05:23:17 PM
@ Bill,

The more batteries you add in parallel of the same voltage will increase the available current capacity, how much current is drawn from the cells depends on the demand of the load circuit. Say the circuit draws 50mA adding more cells in parallel will not make any difference to the current demand. As you have already found out, because you have increased the current capacity by adding more cells in parallel your run time lasts much longer due to the extra available current.

@ Jadaro,

Sorry mate... did not intend to insult your technical intelligence regarding parallel/series combinations. Misunderstood where you were going with your question. The basic joule thief oscillator is very simple in design and self oscillating around the feedback transformer winding. The circuit resonances and impudence's can be influenced very much by secondary loads, which can effect the output signal amplitude and working frequencies off resonance. The results can affect input current draw from source (AA's etc) where in certain circumstances additional circuits could influence the oscillator away from it's resonant frequency resulting in an actual decrease in source current, but as a result have made gains elsewhere! Jeanna has made much progress through her many experiments using additional inductor combinations etc. There is nothing magical about oscillator circuits... it's just amazing what can be accomplished through experimenting in advance from such a simple circuit.

No offense taken; I forgot to take into account the resonance of the circuit - foolishly though. I see what you mean now.

This is not something I've quite gotten to grips with. The voltage may vary at the input, but the current usage will not? Or so, is this not what you mean - or in fact is that just the rub, the 'pressure' ( voltage ) dictates the current usage?

Is electricity doomed to a multi-variable equation? :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 03, 2009, 09:59:52 PM

Jadaro:

From what I have seen, and learned thanks to Jeanna and MK1, etc. is that the base resistor has to be adjusted to "tune" to achieve resonance. (I use a pot for this and then replace the resistor with whatever value the pot hit resonance with) Once you hit resonance, you will be using the least amount of power (mA's) for your device given the toroid permeability, the number of windings, wire gauges and transistor being used. Gadgetmall added a ceramic cap to get his amp draw down even lower somehow.
I added the larger cell batteries because I knew they would run longer. I did not expect any other results other than that. I have lights I can use for many months without having to worry about replacing the battery. I also have rechargeable batteries that I can juice back up using my earth battery outside so my lights are free.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 03, 2009, 11:37:29 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 03, 2009, 09:59:52 PM
Jadaro:

From what I have seen, and learned thanks to Jeanna and MK1, etc. is that the base resistor has to be adjusted to "tune" to achieve resonance. (I use a pot for this and then replace the resistor with whatever value the pot hit resonance with) Once you hit resonance, you will be using the least amount of power (mA's) for your device given the toroid permeability, the number of windings, wire gauges and transistor being used. Gadgetmall added a ceramic cap to get his amp draw down even lower somehow.
I added the larger cell batteries because I knew they would run longer. I did not expect any other results other than that. I have lights I can use for many months without having to worry about replacing the battery. I also have rechargeable batteries that I can juice back up using my earth battery outside so my lights are free.

Bill

i know it goes deeper ...

i have found that i can run at its natural .. it kinda finds its self after you tune to the core material ...

you do not need a tank .. with a cap tuned .. dont need a pot ... keep it super simple

all i need is 1 transistor ... i choose the 2n2222a... cuz your all going 2 lol

it does not fully drain the cap... most likely a good thing ... the non tin can ones i have tested.. drew 22ma there bouts... no big deal .... i could litterly run thousands from 1 stinkin cap from a aa

hummm there is no limits ... thats the crazy part ... and some thought i went to the far side of the checker board .. naw ... just opend my eyes ..

try your new eyes out yet? lol

ist?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on December 04, 2009, 02:42:08 AM

Transistors have a certain amount of capacitance. When this capacitance is matched to the inductance of the torroid a series resonant circuit is produced. Voltage can move through a circuit without current. The current will be impeded by the inductance of the torroidal primary winding while the voltage will not. Voltage has said to have lead the current. The voltage now resides in the capacitor independent of the current flow through the inductance. The inductor mass has resisted current while it was unable to resist voltage. Take a piezo buzzer and feed it through a highimpedance transformer secondary. The buzzer will not sound. Now parallel connect a capacitor across the transformer or the piezo. The buzzer will sound.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 04, 2009, 09:42:52 AM

i have a winding style .. i showed a few years ago now ... at least a year and a half ..

anyhow im gonna rewind that today in a torrous form

it is a torrous pancake lapped and layored about a copper core ...

my jt coils in core wound similar ... are vhf and then some ... lol

ist

oh yea bifillar speeker wire ... im a gonna TUNE THE MASS it might be a big coil ... we will see

my COLLECTOR is 10 ' 8ga 1000v rated .. 90a 233.3 grams for colector coil control will be the same x 2

i will see how it goes ... 7" loop 5 turn collector it will be 16 ga speeker wire looks like i need 68.61 feet of bifillar copper speeker .. wire .. yikes .. im a be busy ..

each strand is = mass to collector collector is cold return from fly back of jt .. control is the jt .... hummmm

a pump?

in all this thinking ... i got an even BETTER winding configuration .... and i dont want to talk about it .... lol naw i kidding ... i do have a better config yet ... ill just have TO BUILD EM ALL ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 04, 2009, 10:16:20 AM

Suggestion for how to compare bulb brightness. Put bulb vertically on magazine or newspaper and take photo in dark room. The area lit up gives an indication of brightness.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 04, 2009, 10:22:20 AM

a better way would be to lay the bifillar speeker wire sidways as you wind it so it pushes aginst the next layor ..

ya know... lol the last layer of the pancake pushes the next .. then the following lap layed on top that .. continue laps till wire is used ..

ill build and take picures ...

w815 you could split it about 2 cores ... and get a spin seperator ... if i choose to build it as such....

and then recombine it across the room on 9 .. lol yes ... why couldnt i ? im trying to find the answer why all of this is IMPOSIBLE .. lol i have not found an answer why this can not be done ..........

if anyone should TRY ANYTHING im sedjusting ... i reccomend you think long and hard ... AND KEEP YOUR DAMM HANDS BACK...

try a non liveing thing first .... not ... your self!! AND I DO MEAN THAT!

you were born in a month ... and concieved 9 months prior ... what stone must you have .... ?

w

first pic materials
second the collector coil
3rd tuned mass to mass collector to control

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 04, 2009, 11:22:15 AM

how about the 369 ac unit....

how about 2 pancakes .. and a feroite core .. reconnect happins on 9 in the collector coil..

i have 1000 ways to the same .. answer

hummmm

w

so gadget ... how long can the jt can power box run 2.6vdc down to .5v drawing 2 amp .. ? how long will 1 charge of a cap last drawing 2vdc 2amp? is better worded

here is a picture of the first layer in this simple style

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 04, 2009, 02:38:42 PM

Nice ist,

It appears that there is NO iron in this.
I would ask you to confirm that the white wire is copper?

@xee2,
This is a good suggestion.
With my leds, I was shining them sideways onto a white paper to see how far the light was strongly spread on the paper.
Maybe we CAN come up with some of our own standards.
Thanks for that suggestion.

Also, I wanted to add my answer to the question you posed the other day.
My tip transistors do NOT fit easily into the holes of my breadboard either.
I jammed one into the 3 holes expanding the plastic. My plan is to always use the same 3 expanded plastic holes for this kind of transistor.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 04, 2009, 02:54:04 PM

yes it is copper... all copper ... this is a tpu...

thank you ..

it can have iron or a feroite toroide in the center .... lol

this is a true eather pump tpu ...

ist!

output of the jt goes to the input of the big coil then out to the load ... i use the magnetics produced from the jt to pump the colapse from the jt .. all of it is mass to mass tuned to there is resonance by 90 deg too plus ... i can add a trigger .. for a magnet swipe if i want .. i like it simple tho ..

this ring will radiate electromagnetics .. inside on the big coil and out side away from the torous pancake .. it is a push small and pull big that induces its self on the way out to do work ..

can run on a aa

my next design will be designed to ramp up ... this one squeezes and and radiates ..

it is looking good ... im surprized .. im 2/3 done second layer

ok i got it all wound it worked out to 2 full layers around and 2/3 of another layer

so to level out the coil i will wind a bifillar picup mk2 style .. the out to a bridge...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on December 04, 2009, 04:03:57 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on December 04, 2009, 02:54:04 PM

output of the jt goes to the input of the big coil then out to the load ... i use the magnetics produced from the jt to pump the colapse from the jt .. all of it is mass to mass tuned to there is resonance by 90 deg too plus ... i can add a trigger .. for a magnet swipe if i want .. i like it simple tho ..

IST

Are you saying that this is the primarys for a JT ?

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on December 04, 2009, 04:36:33 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on December 04, 2009, 11:22:15 AM
how about the 369 ac unit....

how about 2 pancakes .. and a feroite core .. reconnect happins on 9 in the collector coil..

i have 1000 ways to the same .. answer

hummmm

As usual, it's quite a work of art.

Say, there should be a section for solenoid winding.. :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 04, 2009, 04:44:24 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on December 04, 2009, 04:03:57 PM
IST

Are you saying that this is the primarys for a JT ?

gary

the jt is the 2 speeker wires wound in a torus ... out put of jt .. the 5 turn collector ... then it workes togather ... the device ... as the jt breakes the connection the colector pumps it turns on agin.. and induces in collector .. you turn it off it pumps collector ... this is why it is a pump ... and it pumps THE GOOD STUFF... just like my heart it pumps LOVE!

see the genuis in simplisity...

w815

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 04, 2009, 05:26:31 PM

OK ist, I have a connection question

You say the speaker wire is the jt.
I am assuming you mean that it is wound bifilar and connected end of one to beginning of the other.
And, I am also assuming the transistor is hooked to the speaker wire like the bifilar of a jt and then the battery finishes the hook ups.
So, what is the collector coil?
Are you adding it to the end of the speaker wire before you add the transistor so it is all one bifilar jt?

this is cool,

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 04, 2009, 05:28:28 PM

here is a picture with the mk2 pickup /feed back winding on it and taped

ist

here is a close up of the FEEDBACK WINDING ... this will be connected on 1 end ... output the other as per mk1 design...

last picture ... magic ... with 2 wires... lol

anyone can do it ...

and now .. duality back to singularity ... i love nature ... i will respect her or ... SHE WILL KICK MY A$$

peace !

w815

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on December 04, 2009, 05:32:37 PM

IST

WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR OTHER BIG TOROID AND MAXCAPS BANK DESIGN YOU WERE WORKING ON? I SEE ALL THESE NEW THINGS YOU ARE DOING BUT NO DATA! PLEASE.....HOW ARE ALL THESE CREATIONS OF YOUR PLAYING OUT? I WANT TO SEE SOME VIDEOS WITH RESULTS!

THANKS...STEW

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 04, 2009, 05:40:45 PM

Quote from: jeanna on December 04, 2009, 05:26:31 PM
OK ist, I have a connection question

You say the speaker wire is the jt.
I am assuming you mean that it is wound bifilar and connected end of one to beginning of the other.
And, I am also assuming the transistor is hooked to the speaker wire like the bifilar of a jt and then the battery finishes the hook ups.
So, what is the collector coil?
Are you adding it to the end of the speaker wire before you add the transistor so it is all one bifilar jt?

this is cool,

thank you,

jeanna

ok j no in this design no im not ... altho im sure!!! you may do so ...

only the flyback from the transistor switch .. will go through .. the collector .. then out to a cap .. then fast work .... through a bridge or diode..

st

i am still wateing to get more money for shipping .. i have litterly hundreds of coils .. they all work ..

you just never understood how .. and all can be hooked up all kinds of ways..

w815

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on December 04, 2009, 05:49:20 PM

IST

Trust me I understand that more than likely your coils work and I do understand how and why. My question was not to piss you off, I just want to see what some of these creations are capable of! ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 04, 2009, 05:55:09 PM

it actually takes me a lot to get pissed off .. and then its just a burst ... lol

i honestly am afarid to run some of the things i made cuz i understand how they can work ..

so i like jt's and caps ...

lol

ist!

and i really like j's last coil unit light! cuz she works darn hard... and does a wonderful job..

so i have a use for that coil down the road ... the J TPU lol gk's unit from coax.. jeannas light ..

my my .. lol add the 2 freq .. look out ..

or we could call it the JT UP.. JJT TPU

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 04, 2009, 07:17:46 PM

William:

I like the way you control your windings with electrical tape. I do the same thing with little tack welds of hot glue (easy to remove) but I think your tape looks better and does the job just as well. Nothing like 300 winds of mag wire coming apart and looking like a rat's nest to get one a little peeved.

Jeanna has informed me that the ease of winding the large toroids I was so looking forward to was not to be as I ordered and receive my 2 1/4 pound mag wire spools from go brushless. She has told me that the larger spools will NOT fit through the toroid's large ID. Damn! I was so looking forward to easy winding. Oh well, that's how it goes.

Toroids due in early next week!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 04, 2009, 07:50:03 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 04, 2009, 07:17:46 PM
William:

I like the way you control your windings with electrical tape. I do the same thing with little tack welds of hot glue (easy to remove) but I think your tape looks better and does the job just as well. Nothing like 300 winds of mag wire coming apart and looking like a rat's nest to get one a little peeved.

Jeanna has informed me that the ease of winding the large toroids I was so looking forward to was not to be as I ordered and receive my 2 1/4 pound mag wire spools from go brushless. She has told me that the larger spools will NOT fit through the toroid's large ID. Damn! I was so looking forward to easy winding. Oh well, that's how it goes.

Toroids due in early next week!

Bill

Each turn takes 2.3 inches of wire. Cut the length of wire you need and wrap it around a small diameter tube (you will need about 12 inche long tube). Then thread tube through toroid. Goes quick and no tangled wires this way.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 04, 2009, 07:54:54 PM

Xee2:

Thanks, that is a good idea. I was already contemplating cutting the flanges off of my spools to see if they might fit then. Your way sounds eaiser, and I also then get to keep the empty spools for another project.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 04, 2009, 07:57:06 PM

Quote from: xee2 on December 04, 2009, 10:16:20 AM
Suggestion for how to compare bulb brightness. Put bulb vertically on magazine or newspaper and take photo in dark room. The area lit up gives an indication of brightness.

There are other details to think of , first a set distance for the camera lets say 12 inch , only black non reflective paper under the light .

The camera would also need to be all at the same fix speed if one is set to a slower speed the the picture will be more exposed to light and will change the reality.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 04, 2009, 08:07:34 PM

Mark:

Great point. I shoot all of my videos on auto settings as well as my photos. In the videos, you can see for a brief moment that my leds, or whatever, look very bright, but them they appear to dim. This is just the camera compensating and adjusting the settings. In some of my videos, I refer to this as ramping down.

It would be good to have a standard. Someone suggest hundreds of pages ago that we use a light meter of some kind. I didn't even know they made those any more.

Iam sure with all of the smart guys, and gal, here, we can come up with a good common standard.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 04, 2009, 08:18:11 PM

@bill

Even a LUX METER would need to be at a set distance and same ambient light , it would be preferable to eliminate the last variable , so in the dark only.

But the cost of the equipment is prohibitive .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 04, 2009, 08:34:01 PM

OK,
While you have been discussing these things, I have been as well, but with a camera.
I first covered the screen of my computer, them stood the same distance away (as well as I could) then took these shots.
I was wanting to see-show the differences in brightness between the 34 leds in my (really mine) circuit, and the golden torus light (my replication of the one lidmotor gave my name)
There is a big difference in the quality of light as we know.

In one, I actually stepped away so we could see the amount of glow produced by the fluoro as contrasted with the leds. Some of the 34 leds are at full brightness and some are with the 10 ohm resistor at the battery stopping the amount of volts the jt has to work with.

Multi secondary full brightness
multi secondary 10 ohm brightness
the 'golden torus light' aka JLJL
jeanna's 2 lights = this is the one that shows the different amount of glow.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 04, 2009, 08:53:58 PM

@all

The cheap way would be to compare the cfl to him self , with same camera settings , and distance .

Cost would be reduced to buying a second bulb.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 04, 2009, 09:02:51 PM

Mark:

That is a brilliant idea! (no pun intended) So, you are saying, we have the light in question hooked to a JT and next to it in the same photo, same camera, same settings, same time, we have the same cfl using line power at it's rated output?

I don't think we could find a better comparison that that without buying some equipment.

I will do as you suggest on my test of my Jeanna Light when I get it built.

Elegant solution Mark, well done.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 04, 2009, 09:35:29 PM

True, and it is not as bright.
It is OK though.
The 10 watt is very pretty but not bright at all.
I could probably take 3 pix of 3 cfl's on the same circuit, because I started with the wrong light and finally found the right one. But the 20w will give you the best light of course and it seems like a real light, but not the same as from the wall. I would say if the 20w shines about 20w worth of comparative light while the 10w is more like a 7w bulb.
So, it is like an incandescent of the same wattage.
I just took some pix and I will resize them and add them... (1k words ;) )

jeanna
edit
1- 10w plugged in. This light nearly burned my hand like a filament bulb from the 30 seconds in the lamp!!
2- 10w from toroid. cool. It would be brighter if it could get warm, maybe a cap etc.?
3- 19 warm LEDs LOA bulb. These are straw hats and there is a capacitor in them... get a little warm.
4- 13w cfl from toroid (definitely brighter than 10w)
5- 20w cfl from toroid. (appears to give same brightness as 13w)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on December 05, 2009, 05:11:33 PM

Quote from: Gilobob on November 30, 2009, 04:58:09 AM
@ guruij
Here is the circuit :) just the core is different then a normal jt circuit. I also remember i had some trouble winding it the right way. I find out more about that when I make the bigger ones. I want to see if there is a difference in winding it north to south or south to north or starting in the middle.

@ sptrue
About the Rodin coil, I made one and placed 2 collectors on it (one outside and one in the middle) then i wound a coil like a toroid over it. I haven't hooked it up yet, I'm waiting for some parts to drive it.

Back to some reading :) allot of post in one night (night for me :P )

GrtZ

Hi Gilobob what battery voltage are you using to this circuit? 3v? or 12v?
Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on December 05, 2009, 05:48:19 PM

Hello all, I found some LED Christmas lights at walmart.. just hooking them up to the JTC, only have the chain lights up, if I reverse the polarity, the other half does. I'm using a basic jtc with no secondary.

I'm thinking there might be a diode at play here on the chain somewhere ???

Anyway, it's got a 2.6V source and is using about 80ma behaving like it is. I think voltage across the cap at the base is like 160V unloaded.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 05, 2009, 06:15:51 PM

thats quite intresting

jadaro2600

lol any idea on the freq... cuz all ya need is to make it flip flop at your will for your 2nd freq tuneing .. but we need the freq to be .. cfl .. 38.xxx whatever it is .. get this it gets real close to what i think the sm17 might be ....

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on December 05, 2009, 06:31:57 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on December 05, 2009, 06:15:51 PM
thats quite intresting

jadaro2600

lol any idea on the freq... cuz all ya need is to make it flip flop at your will for your 2nd freq tuneing .. but we need the freq to be .. cfl .. 38.xxx whatever it is .. get this it gets real close to what i think the sm17 might be ....

ist

1.44kHz across C-E, or so, the performance severely degrades when I try to measure across the B-C.

In order to be on the same track as you all, I would have to wind another toroid with a secondary. I'll have more free time after the 12th.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 05, 2009, 06:35:21 PM

@Jadaro,
Good job.
If you remove the resistors/diodes in the string, you will be able to use less juice.
Of course, you will need to take the string apart, but you only need to remove the 1st led at the end of each chain to have 2 strings that will work.

I like how your idea has worked.
(Being me, I would like it better with 1.2v, but never mind. )
Is this the normal brightness for those lights?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 05, 2009, 08:11:10 PM

here are a few pics of how far i made it so far on the ring i was building .. im going to use pnp switching for this unit ..

lookie what i added to the MK1 FEED BACK TO SELF RUN PART... lol

put toroide there .. use the radiateing magneitc feild ... TUNE IT TO THE FEED BACK WINDING ...

so many ways ....

william

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 05, 2009, 08:48:16 PM

Jadaro:

Mine that I got last year did not have any diodes. These were in strings of 100 leds per string. Jeanna's did have diodes so, I guess I got lucky. I see now that she has posted about that so I would follow her advice.

I like the blue color there...looks great.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on December 05, 2009, 09:17:20 PM

I'll plug them in and see - I'm a bit reluctant to take it apart, ..if you look back, ( i noticed at least ) that there is some sort of dummy plug in the middle of the string.

edit:
They're stupid bright when plugged into the wall. ..nothing like the JTC, but mine's not a traditional mod. It's funny, when I look right at them they appear to operate as normal, but when I look beyond them or off to the right, they appear to jitter a little bit, as if they're pulsing. Also, there are two dummy plugs, and they're getting warm - so I assume they're diodes.

I'm fixing to try another winding type - but I don't know how to describe it ~ it was inspired by the work of IST, :P

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 05, 2009, 09:34:11 PM

i can not wate to see your ideas ... i love positive feed back!

and all my stuff inspired by the ones befor me ! well ok some of it was the devine guidence .. ok ok ok a lot was .. sheesh... lol

the unit i have just showen above is..
basic OTTO with a TWIST of JT and a HINT of SM combined with a whole lot of ME ..

64

H
here is a pic of my new hat ... i just love it! fits great...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on December 05, 2009, 09:57:23 PM

So i made a coreless one.. and it's a flop, :(, 15 volts.. it does light an LED though. Anyway. It was based on some celtic designs, I thought that the copper cutting through the center would increase relative strength, - perhaps I should do more tests.

In any event, it winds up beings a mashed together wad of copper with a continuous clockwise orientation, it was partly bifilar for the paths to contradict one another.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 05, 2009, 10:01:33 PM

i see what your trying to build i think by what you describe ..

yes that is deliccate .. angles must be perfect mass and it must be exact ...

but the coil i have just made will scare you .... im not kidding ...

ist!

i bet it charges my cap pac ... almost too fast .... ; )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 05, 2009, 10:45:57 PM

Hi everybody,
I made a video showing a very simple non fancy jtc with secondary making the light of a globe lamp.

here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1KxE_87MLs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1KxE_87MLs)

enjoy,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on December 05, 2009, 11:10:02 PM

Use a copper coil as a core. Bias the core so that the magnetic field produced by the core transmits the induced primary current I think that is what innovation is up to, Nice wraps too.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 05, 2009, 11:24:29 PM

Jeanna:

That is a really cool light you made. I really like it. That was a very creative use of various things intended for other uses. 5 Stars!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 05, 2009, 11:30:22 PM

Quote from: sparks on December 05, 2009, 11:10:02 PM
Use a copper coil as a core. Bias the core so that the magnetic field produced by the core transmits the induced primary current I think that is what innovation is up to, Nice wraps too.

J your picture at the last seams really bright! .. great job ..

sparks

try trifillar pancake .. 1 shorted the other powered with the jt and the last tuned couppled not electrical contact .. and force feed ... i think it will be darn neat .. there is sooo many ways .. this is why i have been confusied in the past!

w

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on December 06, 2009, 12:26:28 AM

A recurrent theme here on the thread - oscillations. I noticed, here on Earth, that it gets its coldests towards the sunrise on winter nights. This isn't always the case, but in calm weather ( such as a stationary front or the tail end of any front), it seems to be the norm.

Keeping the joule thief in mind - a toroid may best be used to create the same sort of momentum of magnetic flux.

I find it unusual that there seems to be a momentum of cooler temperatures just as the sun rises.

This may be a rehash of an old idea, but if the jtc were a better tank, then the capacitance of the circuit as well as the resistance to base should both be tuned - I think we could gain the same sort of momentum.

I see the same effect in clouds, where the stratocumuls clouds will go in one direction and the cirrocumulus clouds will go in another - quite often I see these moving at right angles to one another. :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 06, 2009, 03:00:11 AM

Hey:

Here is a video of a fellow firing up a ten watt LED! I never even heard of a 10 watt LED but it sure is bright:

/www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkUGNtYKasU&NR=1&feature=fvwp

Now, he is using 12 volts and 800 mA's but, I'll bet we could run one of these on a lot less, probably Jenna can run it on her 1,500 volt circuit?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: FreeEnergy on December 06, 2009, 04:19:01 AM

Bill did you get my private messages?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 06, 2009, 08:27:06 AM

so today im digging through boxes full of boards i made .. in the past .. looking for driveing curcuits . so far i have found many bedini 's that i bet work great with this unit ... and i think they are portected units .. with a neon and a FEW diodes ... also i have tonnes of mosfet driver boards too...

so i hope to put it togather today .. i have other curcuits the same as the bedini i spoke of which wile in demo blew a meter .. up in smoke .. and its out put around 350vdc x6 feeds .. 1 freq ..

i think we were able to mesure from some of them .. over 220ma... that was just the fly back .. agin that unit is diffrent ... than what im working on now .. but a good curcuit .. i have failed to blow up 1 3055 with that board .. and because where the diodes are ... however i did burn a few small resistors out .. in the configuration i just spoke of the trigger colpase is added to pulse ... in the design of the board ..

ist!

right i forgot it is air core .. that tpu .. it was showen on overunity .. maybe 1.5 years ago ... it might even be 2 years now ... yikes ...

i built it fully public too ... same old same old ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 06, 2009, 12:11:41 PM

@all

This is a new circuit made with different circuits and ideas.

The transformer can be a 1 to 1 normal transformer or a JT with a 1 to 1 secondary.

That means that if you put 11 turns primary, you have to put 11 turns secondary or pickup.

Maybe it can be used with any JT or transformer with a center tap.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 06, 2009, 01:32:49 PM

well verry kool....

if it does as it is sedjusted ... verry kool ..

to me it is trying to balance its self ...

to compensate for what you did to it ...

kinda like it knows ... ... verry quantum

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 06, 2009, 03:22:57 PM

@all

I just got a idea , we could make a copper toroid (great for moving magnet , like one magnet bedini),we just need copper plates like those at this site .
http://stormcopperstore.com/copper-sheet.html?gclid=COXo5MHPwp4CFZho5QodPm8KqQ

We cut lets say 1/2 inch slices and roll them to the need size , the copper could also be insulated to make it into an active core.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on December 06, 2009, 03:30:32 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on December 06, 2009, 03:22:57 PM
@all

I just got a idea , we could make a copper toroid (great for moving magnet , like one magnet bedini),we just need copper plates like those at this site .
http://stormcopperstore.com/copper-sheet.html?gclid=COXo5MHPwp4CFZho5QodPm8KqQ

We cut lets say 1/2 inch slices and roll them to the need size , the copper could also be insulated to make it into an active core.

Mark

Sounds like you are heading toward TPU territory! ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 06, 2009, 03:32:42 PM

Quote from: stprue on December 06, 2009, 03:30:32 PM
Sounds like you are heading toward TPU territory! ;D

I think even aluminum paper could do for insulation , but could do some weird stuff .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on December 06, 2009, 03:43:03 PM

@MK1

You should read up on some TPU stuff it helps a lot with JT. I'm uploading a vid on this topic soon on inductive coupled wireless JT blinking an LED. Sorry for all the wires. The frequency range can be all over the place but when tuned to the resonant frequency of the coils as expected I was able to pull the voltage down to 1.2v ;)

P.S. This coil uses x2 style pickup and then 10-2 for the BC coils. I can get over 500vdc out of it in a regular set up.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 06, 2009, 03:43:11 PM

@all

Jadaro ,helmholtz coil , we could make jt core coil out of copper like you did,
i made one a while back worked great .
Now what would happen if we made a second core coil like helmholtz coil , but the second one with a tank circuit on it , matched to the jt freq.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on December 06, 2009, 03:59:24 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on December 06, 2009, 03:43:11 PM
@all

Jadaro ,helmholtz coil , we could make jt core coil out of copper like you did,
i made one a while back worked great .
Now what would happen if we made a second core coil like helmholtz coil , but the second one with a tank circuit on it , matched to the jt freq.

I was thinking along similar line about matching JT freq with a different coil. I think it could work.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on December 06, 2009, 04:16:40 PM

@all

Inductive coupling to power JT wirelessly!

:P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llfJW3Yhjrk

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 06, 2009, 05:24:24 PM

Hi stprue.

That is a very clear video.
Great going!

I was reading about dimmer switches last week, and
I was fascinated to read that the more modern less heating kinds are designed to alter the angles of 2 inductively coupled toroids to each other.
It looks to me as though this is what you are doing.
Since you are putting the juice into the system through one and changing distance etc of the coupled toroid, then rectifying it into the jtc.

I do not know if this is true, but also since it only works at or above the 2AA voltage level I wonder?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 06, 2009, 05:25:29 PM

stprue:

Great video, 5 stars!

This opens up a lot more possibilities for us I believe.

I can't wait for my large toroids to arrive.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on December 06, 2009, 05:47:36 PM

Quote from: jeanna on December 06, 2009, 05:24:24 PM
Hi stprue.

That is a very clear video.
Great going!

I was reading about dimmer switches last week, and
I was fascinated to read that the more modern less heating kinds are designed to alter the angles of 2 inductively coupled toroids to each other.
It looks to me as though this is what you are doing.
Since you are putting the juice into the system through one and changing distance etc of the coupled toroid, then rectifying it into the jtc.

I do not know if this is true, but also since it only works at or above the 2AA voltage level I wonder?

thank you,

jeanna

When you tune it to it's resonances (coils that is) it can go as low as 1.2 volts. I make vid's quick so nothing is ever fine tuned! Pirate this is just the beginning..with Dr. Stifflers stuff and our stuff we have a lot of things to learn.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 06, 2009, 07:48:59 PM

you kno this resonance is not all of it ... sheesh

here is another simple design ... i guess i will build this too

i just wish you would understand what im say in

it is just like a pulse motor ... lol

then you spinn so fast that it feels gyro ... but it is only twisting super high speed ..

then use that to control collector .. it does not need to be bifillar ... can be air core

ill build it ... so you can see what i mean .. and as well i have pancake designs too

ill build a few more coils ... and show what i mean ... pulse coil and trigger coil colpase to collector ...

w

here is a pic of the required materials for this build ... should be a great 12vdc unit ..
6" pvc sch40 core ... same white #8awg 1000v 90 amp collector .. then i have a spool of 1000 feet solid 12 awg 600v so im not even sure the mass thing matters so much in thease designs ... as how they are designed .. but they will take some playing to get ripping great but thats the fun in it ..

soi changed my mind ... im useing 28 gage wire 8 coils 29.1 grams each all wound same dirrection around ring ... i will wind 1 trigger coil .. i will build 1 useing 12 gage too as it is less work and can handle much higher voltage ... this one im building will run from a aa no prob .. and it will have some high inductance i would think ... 223.3 grams of 28 gage as primary pulse coil ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on December 06, 2009, 09:05:12 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on December 06, 2009, 03:43:11 PM
@all

Jadaro ,helmholtz coil , we could make jt core coil out of copper like you did,
i made one a while back worked great .
Now what would happen if we made a second core coil like helmholtz coil , but the second one with a tank circuit on it , matched to the jt freq.

I've done this, with the prefab inductors, it's not the best results, but, a custome build would be a better option. I think that finer wire could be used for the voltage gain. Also, making the secondary the same size as the coil to collector would be a wise option.. the coil to base could be small, insignificant even, as it's the current which switches on the base? ( yes / no ).

Anyway, the coil to base could be placed somewhere in the coil to collector and the secondary could be placed in-line.

I've just acquired an old pc monitor - it's huge, i'm hoping it has a decent transformer in it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: FreeEnergy on December 06, 2009, 09:11:30 PM

Pirate88179, hello?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 06, 2009, 10:39:38 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on December 06, 2009, 09:05:12 PM
I've done this, with the prefab inductors, it's not the best results, but, a custome build would be a better option. I think that finer wire could be used for the voltage gain. Also, making the secondary the same size as the coil to collector would be a wise option.. the coil to base could be small, insignificant even, as it's the current which switches on the base? ( yes / no ).

Anyway, the coil to base could be placed somewhere in the coil to collector and the secondary could be placed in-line.

I've just acquired an old pc monitor - it's huge, i'm hoping it has a decent transformer in it.

Save the YOKE !!! its a vortex coil !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 06, 2009, 11:33:53 PM

oooo i think this last unit is a WINNER ...

i finally got 2 of the 8 wound on it ... must be atleast 1000 turns each.

should be a big magnetic feild ... and i would expect big colapse ...

also i got to thinking thease will be trigger / pulse and the other primary and ill lap it .. in between the other 8 coils magic ..

kinda makes me think the 4 toroide coil i just posted and the mot and the ist sh!ft coil ... lol

hummmm

ist!

i have already a varity of bedini boards .. just hook it up ... lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on December 07, 2009, 01:36:35 AM

@jeanna,

This morning I became aware of your successfull 8) "Jeanna Light" 8) as Lidmotor calls it, very impressive indeed.
It took 2 hours to download the U T video lol.

I hope everyone on OU makes one, maybe that's the reason the toroid's can't be bought anymore ;D

Congratulations Jeanna, well done. ;)

jim

@All

I got game.
A couple of years ago the local town had some work done at the local hall, they decided to put a heep of excess dirt next door to my boundary.
During this time, this heep of dirt has formed itself like a grave site, soooo last night I makes me a wooden cross and painted it white, when the paint was dried, I sneeked out very late and plonked it at one end of the earth heep, ha ha ha, it looks really real.

Now maybe someone might take some notice and cart the dirt pile away, they can have the cross too. ;D

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 07, 2009, 10:14:12 AM

i do agree jeanas light ... is the simple ticket.... i bet it charges caps well

have you tryed to charge one yet j? useing your light config...

i am still winding .. it takes a while ... got 4 on the ring 29.1g each 28 gage

i never counted the turns .. i will on the next coil ..

ist!

btw jim .. im about sick of tripping on coils ... i have boxes of them ... i saw a really good RODIN COIL.. looks kinda kool.... hummmmmm

i bet it works kinda the same way ... lol but o the angles... right ... lol silly me ....

wind a tuned pickup on it .... sheesh ... lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 07, 2009, 11:44:03 AM

look what i got for FREE FREE FREE FREE FREE !!!

Yep original Jeanna light charcoal toroids and two more monsters !
They can be got still !! they have tons of them !

gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 07, 2009, 12:06:42 PM

well.....

nuts...

your a nut for free things gadget! lol lol

and i might add you know how to get em ! lol

i did the next coil works out to 483 turns per coil on avarage x 8 coils .. = mass of collector this is only half the jt tho ... remember .. lol

ist!

if you build this coil wrong ... it is gonna blow up ... ok ...

so dont do it wrong ...

thank you !

for 1 the last thing you want is this ring im building to continue growing ... if this is what happins it will blow up ... do not put feed back into the ring .... via coils ... use a cap for that ....

look at it this way ... if i pulse a coil and allow that engery to combine with the forward engery .. then i take that back to the start ... it will amp it till it BLOWS... so do not do that!

this is why i dont close the loop this way... lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 07, 2009, 12:12:04 PM

Guys

Just saying hello!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on December 07, 2009, 01:49:50 PM

Hi guys recently I've build this toroid on a magnet speaker as Gilobob had build. The thing is that I connected it to a 12v battery worked for a little bit and stopped. Noticed that transistor and coil got hot.
Maybe Gilobob circuit should be with two transistors?
Maybe coil burned? ???
Any clue what happened?
Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 07, 2009, 02:46:13 PM

Quote from: guruji on December 07, 2009, 01:49:50 PM
Hi guys recently I've build this toroid on a magnet speaker as Gilobob had build. The thing is that I connected it to a 12v battery worked for a little bit and stopped. Noticed that transistor and coil got hot.
Maybe Gilobob circuit should be with two transistors?
Maybe coil burned? ???
Any clue what happened?
Thanks

If that is a 2N3055 transistor, maybe it should be mounted on a heat sink? I have always mounted mine on heat sinks either in a Bedini or a JT circuit. Just a thought, there may be other things to deal with.

@ Jesus:

Hello to you too, good to hear from you.

@ Gadget:

Man, I got my 4 free 3 3/8" OD ferrite toroids today from them too. My packing slip said these were made in Spain. They came with a test spec. sheet, actually 3 pages of testing data that if Xee2 thinks might be valuable to other folks here, I can maybe put it up here somehow.

All I need now is a switch (on/off) that has a long enough reach to get through my wooden box side, and I am good to go. Any toggle switch from the auto store will work fine. I am starting on this after work tonight. This will be fun!!!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 07, 2009, 03:12:49 PM

Happy to report jeannas toroids from magnetics . the free ones WORK !. This little light i could not get it to light even with a fugi when the fuji lit every thing else . this is lit and i see now that its kinda yellowish not cool white and not daylight but it lit right up .. did not count the turns but it used a roll of red from the shack minus about 10 feet before it hit the other side . I have not tuned it but its a success and i need some new bulbs . this one is about shot . and the other is a 45 watt and the last is a little fl i got from goldmine a while back . its bright ! I could not wait to test them so its sloppy . Next one will be pretty gold .
BTw i measured this winding for Milliamps and its putting out over 30ma on the secondary !, but its drawing 78 from the primary .. I can do better with the next one . I think this will be a good one to increase the charge time of a BCap.

@Pirate . Yep this is My second free order Shipping was 11.98 for 6 toroid . There is a place for about 12 different part numbers . I wonder what the limit is on each . I'll order some more in a few weeks and shoot for 10 . It hard getting a price from these people . I have asked 4 times already and nothing but free samples . Well if they wana give em away i'll take em .
gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on December 07, 2009, 04:26:34 PM

Hi,

Here is my CFL battery powered light. Some time back I did buy a neon sign USB lamp.
This model was powered from the USB plug but also had a battery compartment
for 4 AAA batteries. I removed the neon sign and put a 24 Watt CFL on-top instead.

Groundloop.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 07, 2009, 04:49:42 PM

OO
"" WOW ! It looks full lit !Nice light . You make some of the coolest things i have ever seen Alex. You mind tellin whats under the hood ; )

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 07, 2009, 04:57:14 PM

Quote from: guruji on December 07, 2009, 01:49:50 PM
Hi guys recently I've build this toroid on a magnet speaker as Gilobob had build.

Any clue what happened?

Did you use a magnet for the toroid?

I did that for my first 2 jtc's.
The magnet makes the transistor stop working.
It is not permanent damage. I do not know how long it takes for the transistor to recover, but it is a temporary problem.
I think the explanation is that the doping moves all to one side and cannot recover until the magnet is removed.

12 volt...
Now, you could have burned it out with a 12 volt battery.
I have no experience or interest in using a 12 volt (except for gary's car dome light), so I cannot say anything except you might have burned it out with the too high volts and amps in the little dc circuit.
If you make a light circuit for a led, using 2 AAA batteries , or 2.4volts, you need a resistor to keep from burning out the diode. Imagine what is happening when you use 12 volts!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 07, 2009, 05:16:27 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 07, 2009, 02:46:13 PM
... My packing slip said these were made in Spain. They came with a test spec. sheet, actually 3 pages of testing data that if Xee2 thinks might be valuable to other folks here, I can maybe put it up here somehow.

All I need now is a switch (on/off) that has a long enough reach to get through my wooden box side, and I am good to go. Any toggle switch from the auto store will work fine. I am starting on this after work tonight. This will be fun!!!

Bill

Nice Bill,
Are these specs different from what is on that pdf?
I think you could post the specs, if they have meaning.
I am also getting one of each of 3 toroids.
So, I could post the specs of the J type along with the differences in results.
I am hoping to learn something we can all use.
I personally think the tor-23 which I love is like this and at 10 cents each from allelectronics, it is all most people will need for smaller projects.

@Jim,
Thank you.

@Gadget.
Very nice. and, thanks for those pix.
I am glad to hear this very simple circuit worked with your troublesome cfl.
That is a kind of breakthrough.

@Groundloop, don't you want to try this with a single AA instead of 4?

@All,
I have a few lights and videos to make... ;)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on December 07, 2009, 05:25:08 PM

Gadget,

The original neon lamp has a boost converter that uses
approx 2 Watt from the AAA batteries. (Four of them).
So the light output is approx. 2 Watt.

Jeanna,

The original circuit inside the ready bought neon sign unit
already had a compartment for 4 AAA batteries and the
original circuit inside was designed to run on 5 to 6 Volt.
All I did was to remove the @ neon sign and replace it
with a CFL. (I did remove the socket on the CFL).
This I did to show people that one can make a CFL light
very fast by using such a unit.

Groundloop.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 07, 2009, 06:12:57 PM

Thanks Alex,
It is great to have the clarification.

@Gadget,
I have been thinking about lidmotor's interesting modification, because it is NOT the same as just modifying the base resistor.

The base resistor determines how much the transistor is off or on. This changes the perception of brightness but not the actual brightness.
The proper frequency will make the joule thief work its best.
The rheostat (= pot in the pos wire leading to the joule thief) alters the maximum amount of voltage or brightness, possible when the transistor has turned on.

So they do different things, and I think it is worth noting.

The odd part is the resistance does not add up.
I am still not finished, because my best base resistance is 70 ohms.
I was following lidmotor's suggestion to make them add up and I tried a 47 ohm with the 20 ohm at the battery, and I could not really keep the light on and turn the rheostat. But then it did work when I removed the 35w bulb used the 10w bulb as he did...

Now, I am wondering if I had the 70 ohms restored to the base resistor, would I be able to lower the incoming voltage with the rheostat? This should make the circuit use less while it is less fully on
I still have not soldered it so I can try this too.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 07, 2009, 07:07:38 PM

i agree j

i was going to do this with the sun circles .. set the pot to the colour of the led ... use the watt pot ... for intinicty ... depending on growing cycle and plant ..

and if i find some real investors .. for that ... i would like to cross refrance plant needs to tuned lighting... via slection .. veggie .. flower ... bla bla ..

but that is exactally how i was gonna do it .. and also if i matched the FLICKER EFFECT FROM THE LEDS IN GS GEROMERTY.. for the plant of choise from the database .. ... i can play it music and grow it fast ... no ?

agin ... my more advanced ideas...

w

i just finished all 8 coils this is = to the high self inductance winding .. it will be hooked up as 1 wire all 8 coils .. im doing that now .. this is eather trigger or pulse ... center collector is out put only ... if it becomes anything other it will self destruct ...

ill add a picture ..

btw if your eyes are open ... you also see 2 triangles and 2 spinn minipulators ... in my design .... ; )

thank q lol

i did the math on the 12 gage wire to equal to collector equals .. 27.12 feet so i will lap the pulse coil low self inductance winding ill add a picture when i finish it ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on December 07, 2009, 08:02:37 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on December 07, 2009, 07:07:38 PM
i agree j

i was going to do this with the sun circles .. set the pot to the colour of the led ... use the watt pot ... for intinicty ... depending on growing cycle and plant ..

and if i find some real investors .. for that ... i would like to cross refrance plant needs to tuned lighting... via slection .. veggie .. flower ... bla bla ..

but that is exactally how i was gonna do it .. and also if i matched the FLICKER EFFECT FROM THE LEDS IN GS GEROMERTY.. for the plant of choise from the database .. ... i can play it music and grow it fast ... no ?

agin ... my more advanced ideas...

w

i just finished all 8 coils this is = to the high self inductance winding .. it will be hooked up as 1 wire all 8 coils .. im doing that now .. this is eather trigger or pulse ... center collector is out put only ... if it becomes anything other it will self destruct ...

ill add a picture ..

plyz viev...

http://x-faq.ru/index.php?topic=118.0

http://www.youtube.com/user/FreeEnergyInfo#p/u/65/gB9HlMUV0O4
http://www.youtube.com/user/FreeEnergyInfo#p/u/64/Tsw9SleQZ-I
.......

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 07, 2009, 09:15:11 PM

Quote from: jeanna on December 07, 2009, 06:12:57 PM
Thanks Alex,
It is great to have the clarification.

@Gadget,
I have been thinking about lidmotor's interesting modification, because it is NOT the same as just modifying the base resistor.

The base resistor determines how much the transistor is off or on. This changes the perception of brightness but not the actual brightness.
The proper frequency will make the joule thief work its best.
The rheostat (= pot in the pos wire leading to the joule thief) alters the maximum amount of voltage or brightness, possible when the transistor has turned on.

So they do different things, and I think it is worth noting.

The odd part is the resistance does not add up.
I am still not finished, because my best base resistance is 70 ohms.
I was following lidmotor's suggestion to make them add up and I tried a 47 ohm with the 20 ohm at the battery, and I could not really keep the light on and turn the rheostat. But then it did work when I removed the 35w bulb used the 10w bulb as he did...

Now, I am wondering if I had the 70 ohms restored to the base resistor, would I be able to lower the incoming voltage with the rheostat? This should make the circuit use less while it is less fully on
I still have not soldered it so I can try this too.

jeanna

Jeanna i have a pot on the base thru a 47 ohm resistor with this one and i can increase or decrease the brightness of the little Florecent lamp (square one) all the way to BRIGHT to dim but after it goes out i have to crank it up to high to light again and then i have control over it . Its possible to just regulate the voltage from the battery and leave a resistor on the base without a pot there . I mean put the reostate in between the battery and jt ? I dont have awire wound one to spare they are on all my Bedinie's .

albert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on December 07, 2009, 10:47:45 PM

@ Doug,

Quote from: Doug1 on November 30, 2009, 07:26:46 PM
Mag wire scroungers ,when ever I'm looking for wire i go to the local electric motor shops where they repair commercial electric motors and offer to purchase the left overs at the scrap price which is what they sell it off at to be recycled with the wire they shred off burnt motors.
I'm not talking about little bitty radio shack size rolls.The rolls I get still have many pounds of wire left on them sometimes they have 15lbs left on a roll.The rolls are really big honking ones like the type you would see used to stock rope. Plus these shops also save caps ,stock cap, collect caps. Boxes and boxes of caps of all sizes. The place I used to go to sells mixed boxes of caps by the pound.
Check out your local electric motor shops.

Very true.
I once worked in a motor rewind shop for about 3 years, they would throw out spools into the reject "scrap copper" drum when there was not enough wire left on the spool.

Only trouble is, these days the price of scrap is high, so they never see it worth their while to sell it to anyone, out here in Aussie anyway.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 08, 2009, 01:35:16 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on December 07, 2009, 09:15:11 PM
Jeanna i have a pot on the base thru a 47 ohm resistor with this one and i can increase or decrease the brightness of the little Florecent lamp (square one) all the way to BRIGHT to dim but after it goes out i have to crank it up to high to light again and then i have control over it . Its possible to just regulate the voltage from the battery and leave a resistor on the base without a pot there . I mean put the reostate in between the battery and jt ? I dont have awire wound one to spare they are on all my Bedinie's .

albert

Yes, it is.
In fact it is how my golden light is wired.

There is as I mentioned a difference in what you are doing.
The rheostat which is the pot at the battery pos end is raising or lowering the maximum amount of voltage available to the transistor and not changing the pulsing part of the joule thief.

The pot we are used to adjusting is making the the frequency of the pulses but each time the voltage is on the leds are fully on.
It was what lidmotor did. I didn't get it at first, and it only works on a circuit where there is more voltage coming into the basic joule thief than is necessary.
It makes a dimmer or brighter light without changing the flicker rate. Now we don't really see the flickers, but we do, and it looks like a color difference more than a flicker difference. I do not know if I can explain it any better. It is worth looking into.

I was not able to make any use of this with a cfl of higher wattage like the 20 watt. If I raised the resistance on the rheostat the light would go off right away.
I used the trick today with a partially blown 19-led bulb because I was wanting to lower the light while I checked it.
In my AC circuit I have used a 33 ohm resistor to severely dim the input voltage for the sake of my eyes, so it makes a lot of sense. Radio shack has them for 4 bucks.

I hope this makes sense,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on December 08, 2009, 07:10:32 AM

Thanks Jenna for your help I am rewinding the toroid now. First I am searching for a burned wire than I should do it on another Ferrite one.
FreeInfo can you please translate those schematics that you've posted in Russian?
Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on December 08, 2009, 07:17:16 AM

In hoping and looking forward to using my xenon flash tube.. I am wondering what the center lead is for? ..the other two are obvious.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Gilobob on December 08, 2009, 07:33:18 AM

@ guruij

Sorry for the late response. I was in bed feeling very sick and had to study for my exams. I'm a bit better now.
I tuned it so that it works best on 4 to 7 volts. So it works on a phone solar charger.
I think you drain to many amps and your 2n3055 is blown. Put a resistor at the input, and try to tune it to it sweet spot.
Mine just gets a bit warm after 10 hours.

GrtZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on December 08, 2009, 07:42:48 AM

Quote from: Gilobob on December 08, 2009, 07:33:18 AM
@ guruij

Sorry for the late response. I was in bed feeling very sick and had to study for my exams. I'm a bit better now.
I tuned it so that it works best on 4 to 7 volts. So it works on a phone solar charger.
I think you drain to many amps and your 2n3055 is blown. Put a resistor at the input, and try to tune it to it sweet spot.
Mine just gets a bit warm after 10 hours.

GrtZ

Hi Gilobob it's ok I think something went wrong in the coil cause I changed the transistor and still the problem remained.
I can rewind another one no problem.
Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 08, 2009, 07:49:28 AM

you know about a year or more ago i built some good bedini units ... there are 2 diodes a neon and a resistor .... my 3055 dont get hot ... and i dont blow any ...

not 1 ...

my plan is to use it to drive my last coil ... but since i moved i had 4 or 5 soldreing irons .. looked all night ... do you think i could find them ... hummm

o well i hope to find them today ..

i did some basic tests with my last coil ... the more of the 8 coils i hook up the bigger my flyback is .. i need to solder it b4 i wind the final coil on it .. and hook it up ...

IT IS IMPORTANT IT IS SOLDERED AND SEALED .. or it will arc i have had this in the past .. and been zapped! from an un soldered and un sealed end ... all i did was go to touch the coil and it jumped to my hand ...

verry much like a static zap ..

ist! im a gonna find me an iron ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 08, 2009, 08:34:09 AM

Quote from: jeanna on December 08, 2009, 01:35:16 AM
Yes, it is.
In fact it is how my golden light is wired.

There is as I mentioned a difference in what you are doing.
The rheostat which is the pot at the battery pos end is raising or lowering the maximum amount of voltage available to the transistor and not changing the pulsing part of the joule thief. me .

The pot we are used to adjusting is making the the frequency of the pulses but each time the voltage is on the leds are fully on.
It was what lidmotor did. I didn't get it at first, and it only works on a circuit where there is more voltage coming into the basic joule thief than is necessary.
It makes a dimmer or brighter light without changing the flicker rate. Now we don't really see the flickers, but we do, and it looks like a color difference more than a flicker difference. I do not know if I can explain it any better. It is worth looking into.

I was not able to make any use of this with a cfl of higher wattage like the 20 watt. If I raised the resistance on the rheostat the light would go off right away.
I used the trick today with a partially blown 19-led bulb because I was wanting to lower the light while I checked it.
In my AC circuit I have used a 33 ohm resistor to severely dim the input voltage for the sake of my eyes, so it makes a lot of sense. Radio shack has them for 4 bucks.

I hope this makes sense,

jeanna

Jeanna . Cool . I rre read your post and i see thast what you were doing
HOWEVER i do believe this still changes the frequency as the transistor oscillations are voltage controlled . If you put a radio near it you will see what i mean . My daughter can hear it . I cannot hear high pitch ringing anymore :( 12 years of loud mucic from My band and the stroke has left me with permanent ringing in my ears all the time. I used to hear the HV transformers in TVs when they came one now nothing . She hears all the jts sing . I wish i could hear them :( but i can thru the radio . What we need is a stable oscillator and a 555 timer oscillator is perfect for this . Only thing is it won't work on 1.2 volts with out a stepup converter or possible a dedicated secondary filtered and ran thru a regulator for 5.5 volts . That way we can lock the frequency a lot closer . It will still drift a little but not as much as just a transistor . Also the little Fl light is still running strong this morning . It lit up the bedroom last night and its as bright a a few .5 watt straw hats . One thing that i notice is the batteries i use . There walmart Energizer ni/mh 2500 mah . these are the best batteries i have ever worked with . they are expensive but they are well worth it for experiments and cameras . I got 6 of them and that is what my camera and all my projects from from a very long time.
Albert

Gadgte

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 08, 2009, 08:40:21 AM

i still do not understand ... for the life of me ...

why you all worrie about drift...

i find this all to be A LARGE WASTE OF TIME ...

as long as you have fun i guess...

let me ask you if the original inventor of this ... used 555 and diodes ... lmfao....

im just guessing he did not ... and im also guessing he was NOT WORRIED about drift... maybe he was worried of SHIT BLOWING UP! YA THINK ...

SO TUNE IT RIGHT IN ... KEEP IT IN SYNC.. AND THE FIRST SMACK OF POWER .. IT WILL BLOW UP ..

tesla noticed on his magnometers 1 day ... they would move in the presents of an electrical storm ....

hummmm

w

lets hear it 1 more retarted time .. how it must be in resonance .. i say bullsh@t..

why ... cuz i know resonance is an effect of the cause i have uncovered .. in the last 4.5-5 years ...

thank you!

and just because a jt runs fast ... you think it only works with speed ... agin WRONG! ... IMAGINE ...

then you get the reall dozzies that say aaaahhh its only an effect of hfe... lol lol ... i bet! maybe in there mind ... i have done this with a source ... no diodes .. and no transistors ... and burnt mots ... and the hummmmmm lould.... imagine ...

ya ...

remember this old picture ... where is the transistor ... ? lol do i need the diode .. i mean really ? ... the cap too ... sure i can throw it out too ...

what ya left with ?

looks like some big a$$ KICKS .. AND THE MAGNETIC CURRENT TO GO WITH IT ...

agin i did this public many moons ago ......

here is a video .... whos right at home ? : )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ri_HbDCwf_E
my door bell ... the WHITE STRIPES ... yes yes me and my mistery miss!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bf1ZmTxXTEw
w

ED..... care to explain ring the bell 2 time ? ? ? ?

ding dingggggggggg lol hummmm what does a door bell do .. ? it is set to ring ... then you pulse it ... lmao

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 08, 2009, 12:49:53 PM

take a look at captian pecan's work.. just as a reminder ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwp7podu06s&feature=related

ist!

now what if those ubc caps ... were just a little bit better..... : )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 08, 2009, 01:09:36 PM

Hi Gadget,
Yes, I know what you are saying.
In fact I expected that to be the case. It is and yet what I have described is also in there.

BUT...AND
I must say, I agree with ist here.

This was just an observation that it is different from the more direct effect of the base resistor.
I have always tried to avoid a dependence on resonance.
I have always tried to back off from it because I think it is too finiky. It is great to have everything suddenly turn on high, but I like having the reliability more, so I find the resonance spot when I can, then I back off,
My new winding has given me a much broader band width.
I was hoping to make a 3 phase coil, and came up with this wider band. Maybe it is 3 phase and I just don't know it? I actually have no way of knowing if it is. I can barely understand it, and I am not interested in trying to, because most explanations involve sinusoidal waves which are not relevant here...

I think the crisp clear or is it crystal clear light cubes made with these lamp components could be cool. Maybe you could make a mold with a cylindrical hole for the bulb which would allow you to change it.

Thank you.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 08, 2009, 01:23:00 PM

btw j

i know you have done a huge part of all of this as has everyone ...

and i stand back .. and say to all who have worked on this great job!

and thank you .. and i mean not to take credit .. from anyone .. but to simply tell the truth in the matter ..

j thats a great idea! makes me think nano coated leds ... think it magnifys the light and gives you full spectrum ... lol

ist!

finally found a solder gun ... big old thing ... lol but got it soldered now i will add the primary of jt

to my ring .. i ll add the pic

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 08, 2009, 03:23:34 PM

Hi,

You guys mind if post here? I built Alberts JT circuit, except temporarily I replaced the 1N34A & UC with a yellow LED, and worked 1st time, lighting a yellow LED. Regardless of where the 10Kohm pot is adjusted it still works, but Albert has a 2.2Kohm R also in-series. The frequency according to my DMM is 60.5KHz. The minimum source voltage to get it to light the LED is 0.545 volts. Does this all seem normal?

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 08, 2009, 03:27:37 PM

By adjust the 10Kohm pot it can run as low as 0.4 volts. :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 08, 2009, 03:30:33 PM

@paul

It sounds about right , i usually stay away for yellow led , they usually change the jt freq , and some of those yellow led work from 1.5 volt , that way its hard to tell if the circuit is done correctly or not since the led will work anyway its connected.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 08, 2009, 03:55:16 PM

Quote from: PaulLowrance on December 08, 2009, 03:27:37 PM
By adjust the 10Kohm pot it can run as low as 0.4 volts. :)

yep red and yellow work from a battery use white or green . shold be about 22 volts thru the diode on that junction ce also 5 or better ma with the circuit drawing 13 ma

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 08, 2009, 04:01:46 PM

i finally got the knot wound ....

it looks kinda kool ..

ist

i have a question ... do you think is it sheer coincenidence that you live in a 60hz grid? i yi yi

so i have another question ..might it also be sheer coincenidence that 60 hz flicks 60 times per second ... and it is allso odd there 60 min in an hour ... ever think bout that ... and we record time .. on 60hz...

maybe i just lost my mind .. lol dont think so tho ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 08, 2009, 04:29:08 PM

IST,

That looks cool, but scary. ;)

Hey, I just thought of a very simple way to test the efficiency of my JT.

Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 08, 2009, 05:36:53 PM

I finished my quick & dirty JT efficiency test, but it's inconclusive. I already know what the skeptics will be thinking before hand. Yes, yes, yes, I know, it's just a quick & dirty method that has flaws, but I could not resist since it's so quick & easy.

Anyway, it showed 1.03% efficiency, which is far higher than I'd expect, but remember there's a problem with my method. I'm not doubting that some people here might have found the right combination for cop>1. Lets find out.

What I did was placed two LED's facing each other, and taped them together. One is the light source, the other is only a sensor. So had the JT light the LED till the sensor output was 50mV. Then I did the control experiment by replacing the JT with a DC voltage source from a power supply, and adjust the voltage till the LED sensor produced the same 50mV.

Here are the numbers,

JT circuit: 0.634V, 15.47mA = 9.81mW

Control: 1.887V, 5.35mA = 10.1mW

Efficiency is 103%

The problem with this method is that the LED efficiency varies with current. The JT circuit produces a pulse, and therefore the LED current is much higher as compared to the control experiment, which is DC current. I have no idea if the LED is more efficient above the control DC current of 5.35mV. It probably is.

Any other ideas how to test this without getting out the scope and messing with spikes?

Anyhow, this is fun testing, and I'll try some more. The JT is pretty cool circuit. Conventionally speaking, one would probably expect this to be 80% to 90% efficient, maybe a bit higher if special care was taken.

Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 08, 2009, 05:48:03 PM

Ah, I know, the thermistor method. Replace LED with a resistor, and then place thermistor on resistor.

Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: broli on December 08, 2009, 06:54:57 PM

IST it seems you propose to tune the frequency at the mechanical vibration of the core. I don't think this is as easy as you make it out to be without using any timer circuit, also remember you also have years of knowledge in this compared to others. I think if this gets nailed this forum should host tutorials from a to z describing each step with photographs to build the "perfect" joule thief. Tesla's research was all about natural vibration and amplification not only electrical resonance as the hertzians think so tuning a JT to its natural vibration might amplify the power like you say.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 08, 2009, 08:20:45 PM

Here's my results of testing gadgetmalls circuit, or at least the closest I can presently get to it. I don't have his toroid, but I'm using a good toroid with high permeability.

The previous quick & dirty method that I used is not to be taken seriously, but this method has the potential of being very accurate. The method consist of using a resistor for the load, and measuring the R's temperature, which we'll call Tr. Then doing the control experiment, which consists of connecting the resistor directly to a power supply, and then increasing the current until the resistor temperature stabilizes at Tr.

An elaborate setup would use a closed system that maintains a fixed temperature. I did not go that far. Also I did not dig out the ridiculously sensitive temperature equipment.

A 100 ohm carbon resistor was used as the load. The voltage across the JT was 1.559 volts DC, and the current was 74.3mA DC, for a total of 116mW. The control experiment showed that it took only 93.3mW to bring the resistor to the same temperature.

This comes to 80.4% efficient.

This JT was about 80% efficient, but maybe there's some tweaks to improve this?

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 08, 2009, 08:53:05 PM

Quote from: PaulLowrance on December 08, 2009, 08:20:45 PM
Here's my results of testing gadgetmalls circuit, or at least the closest I can presently get to it. I don't have his toroid, but I'm using a good toroid with high permeability.

The previous quick & dirty method that I used is not to be taken seriously, but this method has the potential of being very accurate. The method consist of using a resistor for the load, and measuring the R's temperature, which we'll call Tr. Then doing the control experiment, which consists of connecting the resistor directly to a power supply, and then increasing the current until the resistor temperature stabilizes at Tr.

An elaborate setup would use a closed system that maintains a fixed temperature. I did not go that far. Also I did not dig out the ridiculously sensitive temperature equipment.

A 100 ohm carbon resistor was used as the load. The voltage across the JT was 1.559 volts DC, and the current was 74.3mA DC, for a total of 116mW. The control experiment showed that it took only 93.3mW to bring the resistor to the same temperature.

This comes to 80.4% efficient.

This JT was about 80% efficient, but maybe there's some tweaks to improve this?

Regards,
Paul

I haven't hooked a scope to it yet but ground the grouns and use a 900k resistor . that should not load the jt at all . Also the Diode is converting half the spikes to voltage . If you read the Ce with a meter you only see about 2.5 volts . put the diode on and it should be about 21 volts , Put another diode on the emmiter and you should see about 25 volts . put a bridge on the Eb and you see about 30 volts . As i said before i read The current with a 1 ohm resistor in series with the battery and adjust it 13 ma to get the above readings . IF your toroid is close to the same permeability then you should see at least these volts if not higher @ 13 ma draw . .. My lowest Jt is pulling 0.80 milliamps @ 0.18volts and runs 4 white leds in parallel . This one runs all the time 24 7 now since i built it . It uses an obsolete transistor and a true museum piece HEP 638 . I found one on ebay a few weeks ago in the original box and bid 50 dollars on it . it went for 220.00 Us :( So this transistor is extremely Valuable germanium . Most of the germanium i sold to cheap . Some that Jeanna has are worth 100's of dollars i found out later .. there is only one on the internet here http://www.mistersprockets.com/hep638-p-20142.html

Its a fake ,a cross no where near the value or the guy has no idea whats its worth . you can easily make 5 times that
.
ALso It's so rare there is no spec sheet on the internet at all /
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 08, 2009, 08:54:22 PM

Paul:

Great testing idea. Where were you getting the 1.55 volts from? Was that the input from a battery? If that was your output, it should be somewhere way higher than that. The basic JT in its simple form should put out around 15-30 volts depending upon how you make it. Input on this could be anywhere from 1.5 volts down to about .35 volts.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on December 08, 2009, 09:29:33 PM

The circuit goes into resonance rather quickly, it's working to its specifications.. I assume you are tuning it to optimum output?

The circuit will still be in resonance, I think what we're trying to assume here is that tuning is the key, not resonance. The circuit will go into whatever resonance it's been adjusted for..

i.e. "Resonance at configuration X vs resonance at configuration Y" ...etc.

- - - - -

Is there a transistor that will open the Source-Drain channel when a voltage is applied?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: broli on December 09, 2009, 05:10:28 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on December 08, 2009, 09:29:33 PM
The circuit will go into whatever resonance it's been adjusted for..

This is true but it doesn't mean it's optimal, if you hit the toroid and record the sound with a microphone it might peak at a certain frequency this is its natural vibration that you would like to work towards. Electrical frequency of the circuit depends on saturation level of either toroid or transistor.

Quote from: jadaro2600 on December 08, 2009, 09:29:33 PM
Is there a transistor that will open the Source-Drain channel when a voltage is applied?

I think you're looking for mosfets.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 09, 2009, 09:34:15 AM

i should mention you want to tune off the dirrect freqs ... or it will blow ...

assume you get close to core resonance .. and intrupt it ... the resonsant wave flys back .. upon cut ... this means ... insted of NORMAL JT OPERATION where 1 spike is added per pulse ... 1000's are per pulse ...

be careful!

i do not reccomend mosfets .. reason they blow up ... because of the high voltage ... they do not like it ...

i have blowen many of them in the past .. plus you need a controller ..

i find bedinin to work well and with my last coil i dont see why a 2n2222a will not work .. i only need a higher voltage to pump through the collector ... the ring will add to the output by original design ...

ist

so on my last ring showen i did laps on the primary pulse coil .. 8 laps infact ... just funny how it ended up .. so as i pulse primary drive coil it will race around collector 8 times .. then the 8 coils will bang and then colpase goes into the collector .. it gets accelerated 8 times over 5 turns .. and the cycle repetes .. i would expect vhf from such a design ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 09, 2009, 10:25:10 AM

Thanks Gadget for the input! I'll use all of your advice.

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 08, 2009, 08:54:22 PM
Paul:

Great testing idea. Where were you getting the 1.55 volts from?

It was the battery voltage on the JT circuit, but it was not a battery per say. It was an adjustable voltage from a power supply.

These voltages you guys mention, are you referring to how much voltage the JT will produce *without* a load? Are you referring to DC or the peak pulse voltage.

Today I'm looking forward to seeing how many times the AA 2000 mAh NiMH battery can charge the UC. The AA NiMH is fully charged at 1.412 volts.

Also, another experiment is to see how much energy is in the AA 2000mAh NiMH battery. There should be a lot more energy than just 1.4V * 2000mAh * 1 h * 3600 seconds/h. I'll connect the AA to a load, and use the data logger to see how much energy is in one of these little guys.

Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 09, 2009, 11:11:18 AM

paul im glad you came to play with us ... the studys and tests your doing are verry important! and some one with the proper skills needed to do it ..

it is not that i do not understand how to mesure things .. as i do .. but lol im not about to do all of it .. as you all have seen ..

i have put forth quite an effort to bring this public .. because ... it is time ..

donot think because i say mosfets for this style are not my first choise .. that they are useless..

this is not what i mean .. i can with ease design a unit to bang with fets.. they ARE BEST SUITED FOR HIGHER AMPS.. AND LOWER VOLTAGE RETURNS ... imo

this means use 10 of em .. at say 12vdc 1 amp and bring back 120v xx amp ..

they work if you stay in the working range .. i have lit bulbs with them in the past ... from any coil

: )

simple... it dont matter steel copper core no core ...... the 120v bulb still lit .. where the source could not lite it ..

thank you

ist!

i will add a picture of some ... and this is only some of the coils i have wound .. TO ARRIVE AT MY ANSWERS.. ....
i have built several hundred things ... ; )

i have at least 1 more pile like that ... of jt style units .. small ones .. and i have 4-5 boxes full of large coils i have wound ...

EACH AND EVERY COIL OPERATES THE EXACT SAME ... TESLAS KICK .. as it were called ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 09, 2009, 01:12:08 PM

The test is now on its way to find out how much energy is inside a fully charged 2000mAh AA NiMH battery. :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 09, 2009, 01:24:28 PM

Quote from: PaulLowrance on December 09, 2009, 01:12:08 PM
The test is now on its way to find out how much energy is inside a fully charged 2000mAh AA NiMH battery. :)

Is this with a Joule thief or just a battery ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 09, 2009, 01:32:34 PM

Quote from: PaulLowrance on December 09, 2009, 01:12:08 PM
The test is now on its way to find out how much energy is inside a fully charged 2000mAh AA NiMH battery. :)

Thank you, Paul.
I have been wanting to know that.
If you can figure out a speed test too, I think that will add even more for us.

I have one camera that gives the alarm after 5 pix of one brand battery, and another that uses that same AA for 20 pix and a few full cards .
I also have 3 battery operated things that decidedly prefer the ray o vac to the energizer even though the energizer might have more mA rating.
I know with alc's that the speed of draw changes the life of the battery. It seems this is also true with the NiMH's where some do the fast draw better than others.
So a definitive test on this would be great.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 09, 2009, 01:43:28 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on December 09, 2009, 01:24:28 PM
Is this with a Joule thief or just a battery ?

No JT. Just a battery connected to a resistor.

Jeanna, next time I'll try a faster drain. The load for this test is 10 ohms.

Does anyone know the lowest voltage a NiMH can be taken down to without harming it?

Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 09, 2009, 02:04:15 PM

just got the last cridder built all done and ready to play with ..

here is a picture of the finished coil

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on December 09, 2009, 02:14:05 PM

Quote from: PaulLowrance on December 09, 2009, 01:43:28 PM
No JT. Just a battery connected to a resistor.

Jeanna, next time I'll try a faster drain. The load for this test is 10 ohms.

Does anyone know the lowest voltage a NiMH can be taken down to without harming it?

Paul

Hi paul'
Under loaded conditions, Fully charged = 1.2 volts and discharged = 1 volt.
NiMH batteries should be charged @ constant current.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 09, 2009, 03:35:27 PM

Paul i let mine a few run dead to 0.5 and i hav a few aaa ni/mh i let run dead dead to 0.19 .. dead is 0.19 .they still run oscillators down to that voltage and charge fine on an 18 hour charger .. almost every time i did this they acharge to a bit higher voltagethat they started with . I have also charged them with a bedini in an 8 pack and they get warm and last a long time .I have yet in years seen a ni/mh short like nicads do . and if they do a jolt from a bedini will bring them back . If yousee one with 0.00 its shorted

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 09, 2009, 03:54:05 PM

i just got done trying that coil i made on a bedini with out being able to get it to run.. so i could just compleat the bedini as it was use the fly back off of that to power the unit and send flyback through it like planed but i cant get it to do squat as it is ...

i will try the jt style next on it ..

ist

well

my my my

i got the darn thing RADIATING ... HUMMMMM ING AND ALL yikes

i used a 13.5vdc 1a adaptor and only the primary wind placed a neo across the neg of supply and primary coil ..

LOW AND BE HOLD IT CAME ALIVE...

i have a lould hummm and MASSIVE RADIATEING FEILD ....

enjoy.. the neat thing is i dont need to neo zap it ... just pass engery through the neo ...

if i zap it ... my wires MELT ... : )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on December 09, 2009, 04:12:50 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on December 09, 2009, 03:54:05 PM
i just got done trying that coil i made on a bedini with out being able to get it to run.. so i could just compleat the bedini as it was use the fly back off of that to power the unit and send flyback through it like planed but i cant get it to do squat as it is ...

i will try the jt style next on it ..

ist

well

my my my

i got the darn thing RADIATING ... HUMMMMM ING AND ALL yikes

i used a 13.5vdc 1a adaptor and only the primary wind placed a neo across the neg of supply and primary coil ..

LOW AND BE HOLD IT CAME ALIVE...

i have a lould hummm and MASSIVE RADIATEING FEILD ....

enjoy.. the neat thing is i dont need to neo zap it ... just pass engery through the neo ...

if i zap it ... my wires MELT ... : )

Hi IST you tried it on the 650F Ucap? How long it took to charge?
Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 09, 2009, 05:14:41 PM

I'll probably let the AA go dead like gadget says, but this is going to take a long time. It's only at 1.223 volts and produced 2150 joules so far. My guess is that it will surpass the predicted 10000 joules.

Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 09, 2009, 05:28:29 PM

awesome paul!

kool stuff!

no i dont have any ubc caps to test it on yet .. sometime.. none the less im no fool ... lol

i made a video

so you all can see what it does

ist!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o77fF7ciD-0

i just blew up my adaptor ....

was scopeing the wave .. and a few min i smelt something hot ... i guess it back feeded ...

so next it may require a bridge to stop that problem ... it did this in the video shoot ..

lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on December 09, 2009, 05:40:21 PM

... I need a mosfet which cuts on when a voltage is applied. Enhancement mode perhaps...

I hate to post so succinctly ..The idea is to salvage current flowing through the B-E path. ..theoretically, the MOS could be daisy chained..

Edit:

I'm wondering what happens to a diode when there is no current flowing through it, but only voltage? ..does it just act like a gate instead? ...is a diode current dependent?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 09, 2009, 05:44:04 PM

@ist

You are still making welding machines . ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 09, 2009, 06:27:13 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on December 09, 2009, 05:44:04 PM
@ist

You are still making welding machines . ;D

thats ok

here is the next video .. where it blew the adaptor with out a spark gap .... lol

ist!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCuOb_5Wvhc

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 09, 2009, 06:37:24 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on December 09, 2009, 05:40:21 PM
... I need a mosfet which cuts on when a voltage is applied. Enhancement mode perhaps...

I hate to post so succinctly ..The idea is to salvage current flowing through the B-E path. ..theoretically, the MOS could be daisy chained..

Edit:

I'm wondering what happens to a diode when there is no current flowing through it, but only voltage? ..does it just act like a gate instead? ...is a diode current dependent?

Well, here is one thought on the diode question. A lot of us here have and are lighting LEDs with just voltage...well, very little current and higher voltage and they continue to work. Since they are diodes my vote (guess) would be that regular diodes work on voltage as well. When use in a bridge rectifier they can convert high voltage AC into DC.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: broli on December 09, 2009, 06:59:39 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on December 09, 2009, 06:27:13 PM
thats ok

here is the next video .. where it blew the adaptor with out a spark gap .... lol

ist!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCuOb_5Wvhc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCuOb_5Wvhc)

Ah that's too bad. I assume you have already tried this, but what if you didn't use the JT and hot the two leads of the adapter...would the sparking still be that intense? And when you say radiating, do you mean heat or sound vibration?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 09, 2009, 07:18:03 PM

when i say radiateing i mean MAGNETIC RADIATION ..

hold a magnet near it ... it feels like it will blow apart from the inside ...

i have an ac adaptor i will use in my next test and send it through a bridge ..

first ..

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 09, 2009, 07:35:42 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-h4l4K7SUo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUGO9paV4m0

You got to see this ! This was this morning.

http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/34854/UFO_or_missile_trace__Mystery_spiral_over_Norway/

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 09, 2009, 07:42:14 PM

well well

wild ... looks like a golden spiral to me ...

what ya all think ...

the second one was neat too

w

how bout a jump hole ..... maybe they came through invisible ...

i will add it has nothing to do with me ... i never started my expairments till later on today ....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on December 09, 2009, 07:56:56 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on December 09, 2009, 06:27:13 PM
thats ok

here is the next video .. where it blew the adaptor with out a spark gap .... lol

ist!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCuOb_5Wvhc

Check the resistance of your coil. It could be a dead short on the xformer. You might be better off putting a resister in series instead of a diode.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 09, 2009, 08:00:51 PM

it will be a dead short on the 1 coil and higher resistance on the other .. i will have high amparge flyback and high voltage fly back ... im gonna try a few ways with this unit

what do you reccomend for a resistor i have some large ones ..

thanks mr m

w

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on December 09, 2009, 08:27:30 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on December 09, 2009, 08:00:51 PM
it will be a dead short on the 1 coil and higher resistance on the other .. i will have high amparge flyback and high voltage fly back ... im gonna try a few ways with this unit

what do you reccomend for a resistor i have some large ones ..

thanks mr m

w

I don't think you need anything large. I would start out using ohms law. E/I=R. Try to keep the resistance a little larger just to keep the xformer from frying on you again.

Also, I agree with what you said regarding the scope shot. It must be some AC ripple from the xformer. You would have 13.5 VDC + AC ripple on the coil. I think you probably want that.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 09, 2009, 08:39:23 PM

yes agin mr.m i do agree..

i did a test useing an ac adaptor made a video it is up loading now ...

in this video ... you see the exact same thing as you just explained but in reverse i get a dc ripple + and -

william

ill add the link it apears you tube didnt like it ... says it failed after a long time ... hummm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 10, 2009, 08:46:38 AM

Hi,

I finished the battery test,

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8387.msg213881#msg213881

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 10, 2009, 02:52:31 PM

@ jeanna

I assume you will be testing the sample cores you are getting. When you do I think it would be valuable to compare the inductance values of the samples to the 3.38" toroids (with the same number of turns on each). This is because ultimately it is the inductance of the coils that determines the JT performance. So if a smaller toroid has the same coil inductances it should also produce the same performance. I think this will enable you to get a better idea of how well the different toroids will work without building a lot of JTs.
If you do this I would appreciate it if you would post the inductance of 2 turns and 10 turns on the 3.38" toroid.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 10, 2009, 03:00:49 PM

Yes, xee2,

This is the exact test I am planning to make.

Thank you. I am glad to know my thinking is right.

jeanna

edit... but then I will make a jt with each one to see what works best.
I have seen different inductances work differently on various toroids. I suspect this is because of the "A" or possibly the "r" in the formula for L.
I can have a range of inductance and there is more to sort out about this, and it is pretty interesting.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 10, 2009, 03:34:13 PM

@ All:

I thought you might like to see this video I found on Youtube. It is a newer Coleman cordless screwdriver using supercaps. This one FULLY charges in 30 seconds!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VA88eJ9V-8&feature=rec-fresh+div-r-6-H

There is even better stuff than this on the horizon.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 10, 2009, 03:53:31 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on December 09, 2009, 08:39:23 PM
yes agin mr.m i do agree..

i did a test useing an ac adaptor made a video it is up loading now ...

in this video ... you see the exact same thing as you just explained but in reverse i get a dc ripple + and -

william

ill add the link it apears you tube didnt like it ... says it failed after a long time ... hummm

trying the upload agin .. hope it works this time ..

i agree J

there is soooo much to this .. i cant begin to explain it all this is where everyone else fits : )

ist!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PurY5lXOhc

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 10, 2009, 04:09:38 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on December 10, 2009, 03:00:49 PM
I have seen different inductances work differently on various toroids. I suspect this is because of the "A" or possibly the "r" in the formula for L.

Yes, there is more to it. But, inductance is the major factor. I am looking forward to your test results.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 10, 2009, 11:20:52 PM

Hi everybody,

Still no toroids today.

I took a few pix of my new 19 led bulb which is a self contained bulb with joule thief and battery run through the power plug. The power plug is taped to the stem of the lamp and sort of hard to see, but maybe you can magnify it enough to see.
It is obviously not finished. I looked some more today to find a switching unit or a way to connect the battery so it can easily be moved from the 110v wall plug to this JTC enclosed bulb when the lights go out.

It is adequate light although not super bright bright but here are 2 pix. Notice the 2 cones of light above and below the shade.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 11, 2009, 12:04:02 AM

Cool Light . Very nice . where did you buy the 19 Straw hat led bulb and it look like the warm white colored ones . I have one 1 watt straw hat that is warm colored and its a golden light compared to 1 watt pure white strawhats I have about a hundred of those and they are blinding 140 degree 220,000mcd s just curious who sells them local .mine came from china Big toroid is ZW49740 140mm lighting off the Base collector and the emitter collector and the secondary at the same time http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8334.msg214131#msg214131

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 11, 2009, 12:17:24 AM

This is a bulb anyone can get, which is why I chose it. People are hard pressed to follow us, but they will not make their own if they have to put together all the leds... I am sure of that. So, I look for convenient things like this to make it easy to go somewhere from our research.

LOA .
19 leds come in cool brighter white and also in this warm color, which I like a lot even if it isn't as bright.
It isn't called 19 leds or strawhat. I just knew that from here.
I took a pic of the 2 labels so you can find this.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 11, 2009, 12:39:06 AM

Quote from: jeanna on December 11, 2009, 12:17:24 AM
This is a bulb anyone can get, which is why I chose it. People are hard pressed to follow us, but they will not make their own if they have to put together all the leds... I am sure of that. So, I look for convenient things like this to make it easy to go somewhere from our research.

LOA .
19 leds come in cool brighter white and also in this warm color, which I like a lot even if it isn't as bright.
It isn't called 19 leds or strawhat. I just knew that from here.
I took a pic of the 2 labels so you can find this.

jeanna

HMMM. I have never seen them . where did you find them ? I am a light bulb freak . and shop at big lots , kmart ,walmart ,wallgreens , dollar stores . I think they don;t have them here . all i found were some little cheesy 20 led bubble . looks like 20 ma leds in them and don't put out and real light maybe a little less than an 8 watt night light bulb .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 11, 2009, 01:02:57 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on December 11, 2009, 12:39:06 AM
HMMM. I have never seen them . where did you find them ? I am a light bulb freak . and shop at big lots , kmart ,walmart ,wallgreens , dollar stores . I think they don;t have them here . all i found were some littl echeasy 20 led buble . looks like 20 ma leds in them and don't put out and real light maybe a little less than an 8 watt night light bulb .

I got these at the end of the lighting aisle of wall mart.
You might remember last year I was complaining that no one in my town sold leds. I found them this fall.

These were out on the market very shortly in 1998 and called back immediately. They were $60 each and did not (still do not) last very long.
(My neighbor was pumping a pneumatic starting motor and my lights were going up and down. The rest were OK but the led bulb was gone.)
I took it apart and actually only half was gone, but I predict the company won't want to keep these around for too long. Even so, they are also at Sam's club, I hear.

They had a DC version in 1998, but I did not find that yet.
That should be good without any modification, maybe.

When I get the battery / switch thing figured out (Not Martha Stuart ;), but better than this) I will make another video.

Last night I tested brightness of this with a single lithiumAAA; and a pair of NiMHAAA.They were about equal to the eyes. Since I would rather use a rechargeable even if I break my own rule about 1 battery, I tested it tonight with the AAA pair.
This has taken down a couple of AAA batteries in 3 hours, which is pretty fast, so for use, a pair of D's will be best.
I also cranked it all the way up for this test.
I am assuming these big transistors eat the batteries faster than the little ones do. Or so it seems to me.

btw,
I am very happy with the dome light. I screwed the fixture to the wooden plaque and it stays in place when I pull the switch.
It is the cone of light going down that pleases me with this one.

Even a dim light helps you to see what is in a room when the cone of light goes down and up.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 11, 2009, 01:49:01 AM

Jeanna:

Well done! That is a nice light you have there. Tell me what you need exactly to accomplish you battery hook up and I might be able to help. In my Jeanna Light replication, I am employing an idea I had for just this, if I read you correctly. If it works OK, maybe it will help you?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 11, 2009, 07:22:21 AM

Quote from: jeanna on December 10, 2009, 11:20:52 PM
Hi everybody,

Still no toroids today.

I took a few pix of my new 19 led bulb which is a self contained bulb with joule thief and battery run through the power plug. The power plug is taped to the stem of the lamp and sort of hard to see, but maybe you can magnify it enough to see.
It is obviously not finished. I looked some more today to find a switching unit or a way to connect the battery so it can easily be moved from the 110v wall plug to this JTC enclosed bulb when the lights go out.

It is adequate light although not super bright bright but here are 2 pix. Notice the 2 cones of light above and below the shade.

jeanna

Jeanna can you Pm me with the distributor with the 30 dollar minium . i want to buy 15 of those big toroids Please . I missed that post some where but gary said you can get them for 2 bucks each ? Also your going to need a heavy duty DPDt toggle switch to change from 110 to battery . Be sure to keep the circuits separate with that switch and tin stranded wires when wrapping them around screw terminals on those big toggle switches . If you need a drawing i can draw it out for you but you know me ,Jesus will probable correct it :) And i welcome that.
Also the jeanna toroid i made with the red wire will light up an unmodified CFl intermittently ,meaning it blinks or strobes full bright . I believe with an mk-2 type winding and combine those outputs it will be possible to light Cfl bulbs without damage to them so they can also be switched from mains to battery operation .
Albert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 11, 2009, 11:00:27 AM

@all

I made a mistake on the names of the person who recommended the circuit simulator on this post:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg213051#msg213051

The correct person who posted the information was @abbarue.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 11, 2009, 11:45:29 AM

Updates on my Gadget JT circuit measurements,

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8387.msg214223#msg214223 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8387.msg214223#msg214223)

Last night the JT was terribly inefficient. About 25%. Today, I adjusted the 10Kohm pot to as far as it will go to get the highest efficiency, and it's at 44% efficiency.

Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 11, 2009, 01:09:06 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on December 11, 2009, 07:22:21 AM
...you're going to need a heavy duty DPDt toggle switch to change from 110 to battery . Be sure to keep the circuits separate with that switch and tin stranded wires when wrapping them around screw terminals on those big toggle switches .
...

Hi Gadget,
I guess my explanation was not clear.
I will post this so it IS clear for everyone.

My effort was to create a self contained "bulb" that would have its own battery and switch and screw into a normal lamp.

The point ON THIS ONE is to not modify the electrical connections of the lamp so it can go into the wall with a normal bulb...
but then when I want to NOT use the wall, I want to screw in this special bulb.

I was hoping to reduce the number of dongles hanging from the special bulb and use the lamp's switch, but so far, I have not found a good way. Nor have I been able to find an adapter that I can use for this yet.

The solution last night worked, by connecting the battery terminals to the plug ends, but there is too much wire or too much something and the battery juice is less effective when I am doing it this way. Maybe it is too much impedance?

I may try a thin piece of wood and attach a switch along with the battery .
I like the rheostat, but it is adding too much wire to the inside of this bulb, plus it is too heavy.

I will keep trying.

Thank you for your suggestions,

EDIT

I will add more here"

QuoteAlso the jeanna toroid i made with the red wire will light up an unmodified CFl intermittently ,meaning it blinks or strobes full bright .

If you are using the painted grey toroid, you are not getting the best materials.
It is important to get a non powdered toroid and the shiny, grey painted ones are in the powdered category afaik.
If you have one that is uncoated and the size of Pirate's you might be getting somewhere.

My little improvement on the MK1 is enough to raise the voltage on this toroid by at least 2 if not more. If you recall, I put the scope away when it was reading 1400v, but I continued to SEE a difference and I estimate the voltage ended at about 2,000 volts.
Now, if that isn't enough, I think we need to change something else!!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 11, 2009, 04:43:31 PM

No i Chunked them . I am using the 4 i got from Magnetics that lit all those fl's a few post back . It makes an unmodified CFL strobe bright . i think it wound like an mk2 will make it appear like ac would to the bulb and fire it off without tearing them up.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 11, 2009, 07:37:22 PM

i un wound my 808

i have a blank w core 140 mm

i guess its time to wind something on it ..

ist!

second pic for J please have a look ... let me know what you think ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 11, 2009, 08:15:44 PM

i started to wind this core ..

im useing 12 ga solid

primary coil on this wind is 2' trigger is 6" secondary / pickup 18'

mk2 wind config 9' 1 way 9' back the other

a pic..

ist

i may modify jt coils ... to find the best config ... however i think this is close ...

only testing tells

here ya go ... and i dont want to talk about how hard it was to wind it with 12 ga solid ... but it is done ... a few more pics

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 11, 2009, 10:17:28 PM

Beautiful, IST.
If that doesn't light a cfl immediately I want to know.
Please follow up with performance.
It is as important to know which designs do not work as those which do.

I think Ali is amazing. I especially like the way up is in all directions.
At the very least, it means she has had open minded teachers, and a good start.
Thanks for showing.

Let us know about this new toroid, please.
You gave this

Quote
primary coil on this wind is 2' trigger is 6" secondary / pickup 18'

Details like
#turns you gave 2T,6T, so how many in the pickup? That would be xxT
Kind of transistor
Resistance at the base
Input and output voltages.
Then we can make sense of the rest of your information...please.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 11, 2009, 10:42:42 PM

im working on it ...

i was gonna try the 3055 tin cans ..

but i cant seam to find one that works ...

im playing with it now .. i will make videos once it is running ..

forgive me .. it has been a while since i did any hooking up ..

and i hope to locate more transistors ..

w

turns on pickup are 54 so 27 each way ..

got it running the way it is .. im useing a 4401
at 13.36 khz it is vhf .. off my 20mhz scope .. 100v + peek to peek ..

i can tune to much larger peeks .. but freq decreases ..

im not happy with this unit .. i think i need finer gage wire .. maybe as a jt ..
but i will keep playing with it for now

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 12, 2009, 12:59:16 PM

@ kooler

I bought a new ignition coil and tried it in the SCR circuit. Results attached (not very good).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on December 12, 2009, 02:18:11 PM

@xee2

i tried using zeners and diacs , a resistor ... i blow more scr's with the zeners ... so i stuck using the neons right now.. (cheaper to fine tune with.. )
the diac's dont seem to be stable enough.. always tripping before the volts get it
since my magic transformer blew.. i been using jeanna's toroid setup 3.38 with 300 turns
but i have to use a brigde in front of the cap before it charges... weird..
even wit a 0.047uf cap i can make the filiment burn in a 120v 4watt bulb (nite lite)
but keep in mind i am dumping the cap at 232-237 volts.. according to my meter hooked to the cap...
if it wasn't so cold in my cellar i would do more testing.. and another video..
my wife won't let me play with stuff like this or solder in the house
she sees a spark or hears the toroid hissing...
she lays the law down..!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 12, 2009, 02:30:42 PM

@kooler

You made my day the Wife bid was so funny...

But please say more about the magic transformer , we need to know , now that it is not working , you could even open it .

Why is it magic , coil design , coil mass , core design , core materiel .

I have seen your stuff since you joined , good work keep it up , the future is in green solution , old business model are moving to india or asia leaving us unemployed either we find new technologies to make and sell or we wait for a third world status .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on December 12, 2009, 10:38:13 PM

well i went to the foxhole for a couple of mins to make a small video
this isn't what i been doing but i figured i needed one more high voltage video before i moved to sumtun else
don't make fun of my messy table...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkLsbDaLjuk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkLsbDaLjuk)

till next time

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 12, 2009, 10:52:38 PM

@all

I just found this !

How to connect multiple secondaries for bigger current !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 12, 2009, 11:14:02 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on December 12, 2009, 10:52:38 PM
@all

I just found this !

How to connect multiple secondaries for bigger current !

Mark how would you suggest we apply this . On one toroid or separate toroids ?

This is good info. !

@Kooler . That rocks man . One little battery ? you wont have any problem lighting up a couple dozen CFLs with that one .

Albert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 12, 2009, 11:18:25 PM

@ kooler

Thanks for the video. It looks like your circuit is working well for only a 1.5 volt supply. If you are going on to other things perhaps you can post a schematic sometime before you forget what you did.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 12, 2009, 11:20:25 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on December 12, 2009, 11:14:02 PM
ark how would you suggest we applythis . On one toroid or separate toroids ?

This is good info. !

Albert

Well likely many cores , because you can load each of them , with out effecting the other.

But i may be wrong .

Page 78

http://books.google.it/books?id=0RmkmrFxHM0C&pg=PA71&lpg=PA71&dq=%22the+super+tube%22+Moray&source=bl&ots=0rOGUKlrkV&sig=6UA4S52QSjdElnDEXD4pXXqlYf0&hl=it&ei=0Y8fS4WqO4St4Qb5n_zfCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CCoQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=%22the%20super%20tube%22%20Moray&f=false

It takes some time to load .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 12, 2009, 11:27:42 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on December 12, 2009, 11:20:25 PM
Well likely many cores , because you can load each of them , with out effecting the other.

But i may be wrong .

Page 78

http://books.google.it/books?id=0RmkmrFxHM0C&pg=PA71&lpg=PA71&dq=%22the+super+tube%22+Moray&source=bl&ots=0rOGUKlrkV&sig=6UA4S52QSjdElnDEXD4pXXqlYf0&hl=it&ei=0Y8fS4WqO4St4Qb5n_zfCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CCoQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=%22the%20super%20tube%22%20Moray&f=false

It takes some time to load .

Is there anyways to save it to disk . I cant read Italian . If there was i could let it download and go to sleep and check it out in the morn .

Dead tired Boss. Dead tired .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 12, 2009, 11:34:48 PM

@gadget

Sorry i did not notice , here is a english version on page 39

http://www.scribd.com/doc/15373684/Quest-for-Zero-Point-Energy

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 12, 2009, 11:34:51 PM

kooler .. yikes ..

you got a load of fun there bro ..

great video!

mk1 if its not russian latian egyptian and now itillian .. lol

you have a sence of humor ...

lol

peace!

ist!

: )

gadget im busting a gut over here .... lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 12, 2009, 11:38:39 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on December 12, 2009, 11:34:51 PM

mk1 if its not russian latian egyptian and now itillian .. lol

you have a sence of humor ...

lol

peace!

ist!

: )

Well , i do not care much about language i keep a eye out in every direction , and for the language i usually am pretty good at figuring it out.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 12, 2009, 11:49:28 PM

Thanks mark .i know some Arabic and Spanish but never took french or german. I do have Rosetta Stone on all the languages . i was going to practice them one day .
Thank you .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 12, 2009, 11:59:09 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on December 12, 2009, 11:38:39 PM
Well , i do not care much about language i keep a eye out in every direction , and for the language i usually am pretty good at figuring it out.

i know you are ...

i just remember some old posts in odd languages lol

than the massive dl and the need of a translator .. sheesh ... FLASH BACK... lol

ist

lmfao

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 13, 2009, 12:16:47 AM

@ kooler

I think this is what you have. Corrections welcome. I was not sure what the U-shaped tube was in your video or how it was connected.

EDIT: changed HV output location

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on December 13, 2009, 01:13:56 AM

@xee2
the neons are blinking cause i got them firing from the spark of the coil.. they were to bright
hook up to it ... affaid i was going to blow them and the xenon horseshoe was sparking from the neg side

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 13, 2009, 01:57:22 AM

kooler:

I was impressed with your video. (5 stars) but at first, I thought those were leds and then, I noticed they were all neons!!! Way to go man! I doubt my large coil would light anywhere near that many of them. I think you are taking us to another level here.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 13, 2009, 04:04:42 AM

@ kooler

Wow, you are up late. Thanks for the schematic. Attached are some test results using your neon bulb trigger idea.

EDIT: I notice that we have our coils on opposite sides of the SCR. I do not think it makes any difference since they look like a short on either side when the SCR is off and once the SCR turns on the same amount of current flows through them on either side of SCR.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 13, 2009, 04:14:41 AM

Here is my Lidmotor Jeanna Light replication video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-m3sTtDbrPI

I finally got a video made. This coil really puts out.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 13, 2009, 01:02:25 PM

5 stars Bill.

I want to clarify our terms once.
The 3T and the 13T are both the primary and the 330T is the pick up aka secondary.
It seems really odd when the 2 primary wires are separated so far as you made them but this is the way they are. There are so many variations!

Great looking lamp,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 13, 2009, 01:19:27 PM

Quote from: jeanna on December 13, 2009, 01:02:25 PM
5 stars Bill.

I want to clarify our terms once.
The 3T and the 13T are both the primary and the 330T is the pick up aka secondary.
It seems really odd when the 2 primary wires are separated so far as you made them but this is the way they are. There are so many variations!

Great looking lamp,

jeanna

I recommend using: base coil, collector coil, and pickup coil.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 13, 2009, 02:37:50 PM

Jeanna:

Thank you very much. What do you think about XEE2's terminology recommendations? That makes sense to me. Since this is my first real multiple winding JT project I have no say in it one way or the other. (You have been telling me to make one for a while now, ha ha) It just didn't make sense to me in my head UNTIL I could look at it in my hands...now I get it. For example, I tried testing the 330 turn output and realized there is no positive or negative as it is just one big loop of wire and it is not grounded to anything at all. I had to see that to get it. I know you guys knew this stuff a long time ago, I am still playing catch-up.

XEE2:

That makes sense to me.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 13, 2009, 04:57:16 PM

I have always thought that xee2's term suggestions were great, and I use them.
Sometimes for the sake of others, I will use the bifilar primary term.
Others who need an explanation in the beginning do not always follow since bifilar and primary are used outside our group, so anyway, yes, I like xee2's terms.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 13, 2009, 06:12:45 PM

@all

This is the real Way to make led light ,well i mean the EE way , not so hard , humm :) ::)

http://www.cappels.org/dproj/PulseBoostLED/Pulse_Boost_White_LED.html

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 13, 2009, 06:55:32 PM

@ Mk1

Quote from: Mk1 on December 13, 2009, 06:12:45 PM
@all

This is the real Way to make led light ,well i mean the EE way , not so hard , humm :) ::)

http://www.cappels.org/dproj/PulseBoostLED/Pulse_Boost_White_LED.html

Interesting. Thanks for the link.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 13, 2009, 07:10:31 PM

@ kooler

So far my attempt at replication is a dud. As can be seen in the attached video, I have 3 trigger neons switching at about 300 volts of capacitor voltage. But, voltage going to the fluorescent tube is not very high since tube does not light very bright. Also only able to make very small sparks. I think you must be magic. I will try using film capacitors and see if that helps. The ceramics may not be discharging quick enough.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on December 13, 2009, 07:32:24 PM

i get my camera charged up ...
i will show you me firing two coils with a d-cell

i can light a fluorescent tube and a cfl good but it isn't the right frequency
i need about 40 more hz to clear it up

it took me alot parts changing to get this thing right
i might even make a video of it running a microwave transformer.. smooth blue sparking

the best thing i done to get random parts for these circuits was to buy those grab boxes from goldmine.. i always get good caps.. haha

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 13, 2009, 08:02:21 PM

well i made another video how im useing the 16t jt

it is a cascade stack from goldemines 1"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzskUwfN438

ist! JUST SHOWN YA! LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1aeXwtoNKc

2 SECONDARIES SCOPED ON 2ND COIL .. magnet added

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0phS_RUtkx8

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on December 13, 2009, 09:02:12 PM

ist
are you pulsing your secondary with negative pulses
it looked like the diode was backwards
anyway all is looking well
keep up the good work

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 13, 2009, 09:50:29 PM

im rectifing from the colpase.. just to feed the 2nd toroide ...

with pulses the second breaks into 4 outputs all ringgggingggg i use a magnet on that core in my next video i show a MAGNET INTERACTION SPIKE RINGGGING BAND .. on ALL OUTPUT COILS .. PLUS A BIG SINGLE KICK!

kool stuff!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuADKuHe-NE

: )

w815

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on December 13, 2009, 11:35:58 PM

xee2
this is for you dude
and who ever else likes it...lol

i got the circuit running two ign coils and then a micro transformer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruJXtBby-pw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruJXtBby-pw)

it's magic

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 13, 2009, 11:52:32 PM

@ kooler

Quote from: kooler on December 13, 2009, 11:35:58 PM
xee2
this is for you dude
and who ever else likes it...lol

i got the circuit running two ign coils and then a micro transformer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruJXtBby-pw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruJXtBby-pw)

it's magic

Thanks for the video. My goal is to use two coils, but I need to make one work first. I hope the mylar caps will help. I should be able to get them tommorrow.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 14, 2009, 12:32:54 AM

here is the REAL MAGIC...

my LAST COIL RAMPS TO RESONANCE ..

IT THEN STAYS THERE ...

lol

and sings lould... and you also can watch it do so on my scope

thank you!

w815

COIL RAMPING UP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQkL5igZuT8
ONE RINGGINGGGG LITTLE COIL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBSY7GQ3Eog

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 14, 2009, 01:06:28 AM

Quote from: kooler on December 13, 2009, 11:35:58 PM
xee2
this is for you dude
and who ever else likes it...lol

i got the circuit running two ign coils and then a micro transformer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruJXtBby-pw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruJXtBby-pw)

it's magic

WONDERFULL JOB ..

i love the nuts things you do ... bet you got a few zaps ... you need a ubc on that thing a microwave diode .. out to invertor and off grid your house!

awesome work bro ...

thanks for shareing .. look forward to more of your wild works .. : )

william!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 14, 2009, 09:47:49 AM

Good Gracious Kooler . See if you can burn some water with a spark plug or even better make some hho maybe with carbon rods ?

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on December 14, 2009, 03:15:02 PM

Quote from: xee2 on December 13, 2009, 12:16:47 AM
@ kooler

I think this is what you have. Corrections welcome. I was not sure what the U-shaped tube was in your video or how it was connected.

EDIT: changed HV output location

@ xee2
Nice circuit... slight error though! bridge output polarity is incorrect if you want to amend it. Regards M

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 14, 2009, 03:32:37 PM

Quote from: crowclaw on December 14, 2009, 03:15:02 PM
@ xee2
Nice circuit... slight error though! bridge output polarity is incorrect if you want to amend it. Regards M

The circuit was not correct. See circuit kooler posted.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 14, 2009, 05:02:20 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on December 12, 2009, 11:34:48 PM
@gadget

Sorry i did not notice , here is a english version on page 39

http://www.scribd.com/doc/15373684/Quest-for-Zero-Point-Energy

What I find most interesting is how similar this is to many of the segments of my multiple secondaries jt circuit.
I did it all empiracally and most of you watched me.
Tishathang, I believe was the one who called it a series of repeaters and something else... I liked the term repeater so I remembered it.
Anyway the series inductors followed by a tank in series lit the lights brighter than anything else did.
I was going for bright lights at no cost to any other lights and this sort of arrangement is what was working the best.
Now, I want to add the cone shaped coil, and I am still rolling that around in my head.

Thank you Mark. This kind of verification/inspiration helps a lot.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 14, 2009, 05:09:48 PM

@ kooler

:) The mylar caps seem to have helped. I am now getting fair size sparks. After I do some more testing I will post a video. Thanks for your help.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 14, 2009, 05:17:04 PM

Quote from: xee2 on December 14, 2009, 05:09:48 PM
@ kooler

:) The mylar caps seem to have helped. I am now getting fair size sparks. After I do some more testing I will post a video. Thanks for your help.

So, now that you have used the joule thief to make sparks, what is the plan?
Kooler's explanation has always been that he likes blowing things up, but that is not the way you seem to be going.
Do you expect the sparks to be more productive than just the voltage spikes?

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 14, 2009, 05:35:21 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on December 14, 2009, 05:17:04 PM
So, now that you have used the joule thief to make sparks, what is the plan?
Kooler's explanation has always been that he likes blowing things up, but that is not the way you seem to be going.
Do you expect the sparks to be more productive than just the voltage spikes?

Thank you,

jeanna

The circuit provides a second stage for the JT that will provide high current pulses. These can be used to produce a much brighter light than could be produced from the JT alone. It will drive LEDs with amps instead of just milliamps. Think how much more light that can produce.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 14, 2009, 05:36:31 PM

Jeanna ! . Look what i found today at the thrift store and a 7 watt cfl in a diffuser already . . Yea . Im ready Im ready :) Just Luv you ! I'm winding that core with just as much #24 i can get on it . Walmart has2 pack C and D cell energizer rechargeable for 9 bucks . Radio Shack wants 39 dollars for 2 . WOW. That little Light puts out a bright white light and is 9.95 for a three pak .These are cool and wont break .I got a porcelain Screw in base so i'm making this one base so the base will screw in and will work on lighting them without mod . i know it can be done . If so then this baby will have AC/BATTERY operation and take any CFL screw in bulb . .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 14, 2009, 05:39:17 PM

Quote from: xee2 on December 14, 2009, 05:35:21 PM
@ jeanna

The circuit provides a second stage for the JT that will provide high current pulses. These can be used to produce a much brighter light than could be produced from the JT alone.

@XEE2 .. This is what i need ! . Do you mind if i use it . What kind of Spark coil did you get ? Part # > I need a faster way to charge up that Bcap . but i need it not to kill the battery so fast it can't be replenished .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 14, 2009, 05:46:39 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on December 14, 2009, 05:39:17 PM
@XEE2 .. This is what i need ! . Do you mind if i use it . What kind of Spark coil did you get ? Part # > I need a faster way to charge up that Bcap . but i need it not to kill the battery so fast it can't be replenished .

Sorry. It will not help you. The total power out is less than out of just the JT. It just provides the power in high current pulses instead of a steady low current.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 14, 2009, 05:52:40 PM

Quote from: xee2 on December 14, 2009, 05:35:21 PM
@ jeanna

The circuit provides a second stage for the JT that will provide high current pulses. These can be used to produce a much brighter light than could be produced from the JT alone. It will drive LEDs with amps instead of just milliamps. Think how much more light that can produce.

I am sleep deprived because of a neighbor's barking dog, and the thought of the noise from the sparks is really an uncomfortable one.
So,
I am wondering if the spark is needed why you cannot just use the 1kv-2kv wire ends from the big toroid secondary?

I guess I also didn't realize you had to have a break in the line to produce amps.??

@gadget,
I saw one of those at wallmart. Good find on the cigar box too.

I am not looking to diffuse the cfl.
A cfl is already diffuse.

It is the led that needs the diffuser.
All that brightness goes straight onto the ceiling.
An LED only brightens a room if it can be diffused.
Make sense?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 14, 2009, 05:58:16 PM

Quote from: xee2 on December 14, 2009, 05:46:39 PM
Sorry. It will not help you. The total power out is less than out of just the JT. It just provides the power in high current pulses instead of a steady low current.

I think it will work with high current pulses . . Maybe not But i could try to do your first stage and check it out . I need more than 5 ma i get now . It charges it but takes a day . If i had 20 ma it would cut the time considerable . I need to play with My Hv flyback and see if the cap will convert it first i guess . if it does then a spark gap charger with high current pulses might work , i think ? no ? HAve any of yu tried to charge a 10f to 30 supercap up ? or just a plain electrolytic ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 14, 2009, 05:59:19 PM

Quote from: jeanna on December 14, 2009, 05:52:40 PM
I am wondering if the spark is needed

Sparks are just for testing.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on December 14, 2009, 07:00:56 PM

hello
my next video was going to be of me running it thru a 1:1 toroid about 30 turns on both sides
it only shows a couple of volts on the meter but when you bridge into a cap you would be surprised

and yes i do like sparks and things that go boom!!
but, no the spark is to show the volts output that a normal meter can't read
if you seen the the microwave transformer... that spark has some current in it...
and yes it charges caps very fast.. its only 10 lbs. hahaha

i do have other HV stuff but i don't think it is safe to show on u-tube ( it messes with my camera)

xee2
the only way i could get a toroid transformer to charge my cap fast enough i had to bridge it
and also i notice that larger triac and scr's steal from the output

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 14, 2009, 08:01:54 PM

Gadget:

That is a real nice box you have there, it will make a great Jeanna Light.

Jeanna:

The best LED diffuser I have ever seen can be found on the hand crank 15 LED lantern sold at Harbor Freight. I have bought 2 of them so far. ($9 ea) I sent one to my Mom in FL so she could have light when the power goes out during hurricanes.
It is hard to describe but it is a cone shaped reflrector that seems to have a reverse parabola shape to it such that the light from the LEDs hitting it from the bottom gets sent out in all directions 90 degrees from the light source which means out all side of the lantern. It is fantastic! You crank for 30 seconds and get 30 minutes of very bright light. It has settings for 5, 10, and 15 LEDs to vary brightness. If I can find a photo of it, I will post it, otherwise I will try to take a photo. It is a brilliant (no pun intended) design. Since all the light is reflected and refracted, you don't lose any like with a shade or other similar methods.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on December 14, 2009, 08:43:00 PM

jeanna
back when you was using the inductors did you ever try using diodes and caps like in the picture mk1 posted
i have that ebook.. but i thought it was aircoils so dumby me never got any good results
but thats been awhile back
so i might have to buy some inductors

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 14, 2009, 08:43:16 PM

@Bill,
You are right about how bright those lanterns are.
I have seen them, in fact I have one somewhere.
It is all the more brilliant because it is using only one light. (mine is)

I guess what I mean by the word diffuser is a material that will make the light glow without lessening the total brightness. It is sort of like a frosted bulb instead of a clear bulb.
They give a different kind of light.

If you are reading it is great to remove the diffuser and point the led directly at the page, but to light up the whole room, it is better to have a light that is spread out.

Meantime, I should paint some walls white so they reflect the light that hits them.

Good point
Thanks for bringing it up,

Good news,
I just got the invoice from magnetics. The invoice date is Nov 9th.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 14, 2009, 08:43:22 PM

Quote from: kooler on December 14, 2009, 07:00:56 PM
hello
my next video was going to be of me running it thru a 1:1 toroid about 30 turns on both sides
it only shows a couple of volts on the meter but when you bridge into a cap you would be surprised

and yes i do like sparks and things that go boom!!
but, no the spark is to show the volts output that a normal meter can't read
if you seen the the microwave transformer... that spark has some current in it...
and yes it charges caps very fast.. its only 10 lbs. hahaha

i do have other HV stuff but i don't think it is safe to show on u-tube ( it messes with my camera)

xee2
the only way i could get a toroid transformer to charge my cap fast enough i had to bridge it
and also i notice that larger triac and scr's steal from the output

i have found the same ... and aswell on the scope when tuneing with the scope .. is worthless ..

you do not need it to tune your coil useing a bridge and a cap! volt meter .. all i ever used .. lol

peace!

great work ..

more more more ...

lol

ist!

@ j if you get board .. you can come paint mine ... i just got the darn walls built and it was annoying ... not much a painter my self ... lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 14, 2009, 09:00:14 PM

Quote from: kooler on December 14, 2009, 08:43:00 PM
jeanna
back when you was using the inductors did you ever try using diodes and caps like in the picture mk1 posted
i have that ebook.. but i thought it was aircoils so dumby me never got any good results
but thats been awhile back
so i might have to buy some inductors

robbie

Yes.
The specifics are sort of on the "ac from jt" thread.

The wires I was using called S1 and S2 are both being fed identical pulses. and it can be seen that they are each receiving the pulses sort of like the A ends
I don't have anything coming OUT of the system like the B wires, but the lights I keep adding are using up what would be coming out.
The amount of lights grew from 10 to 30 as I added more inductors and caps...(I had a few more but I am not counting them because they weren't as bright.)
A difference is that I never had any caps by themselves.
I did not have much in the way of results until I used a 1.35mH inductor which was a half of a toroid filter.
It gave the whole business a big boost.

My original 2 tiered circuit was made with 2 fully wound jt toroids, and it took me a long time to realize that they were great inductors too.
I tried all the wires and found that the secondaries were the best.
I had 3 helmholz inductors like jadaro's , They were 220uH. They were fine in some places, but the secondary wound toroids were around 550uH-700uH, and they were great.

I didn't realize that caps would help because they never helped the light directly connected to them, but they helped the circuit as a whole.

The only diodes I can be trusted with are the light emitting kind, ;)
and so there were all these elements and they are sort of strung together in a way like that diagram from Mark's book.

thank you,

jeanna

add:

Quote
and yes i do like sparks and things that go boom!!
but, no the spark is to show the volts output that a normal meter can't read

That is great to know thanks.

Quoteif you seen the the microwave transformer... that spark has some current in it...

How do you say the MOT has amps in it?

thank you
j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 14, 2009, 09:21:37 PM

@ kooler

Well here is my first try at a video of the sparks. They will jump farther than this, but if I spread the wires farther apart I start getting sparks across the coil terminals. If you look carefully, you can see some faint additional sparks that are longer than those across the closest points of the wires. I need to figure out how to get a better video.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on December 14, 2009, 10:10:00 PM

jeanna
if you ever played with sparks..lol
nah i joking ..but if you look at a spark that has alot of lenth and no width its mostly just voltage
but if you see a spark with alot more width then it has some current with it
i say current because it may not be of amps but there are some ma's in the mot's output

and i remeber seeing your demo's of the inductors and thought it to very impressive
but i never had enough inductors to try myself
your research into the inductor's got me to start trying them in things

xee2
very nice blue light...

thanks
robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 14, 2009, 10:21:19 PM

Xee2:

That is some pretty large sparks there. Can you control the timing of the spark release? I mean, can you adjust for higher frequency (occurrence) or lower? it does not seem like you would need too much more to have a "constant" appearing spark like Kapanadze has. I guess something over about 70hz would appear constant to us. (Maybe less for an old guy like me)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 14, 2009, 10:28:56 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 14, 2009, 10:21:19 PM
Xee2:

That is some pretty large sparks there. Can you control the timing of the spark release? I mean, can you adjust for higher frequency (occurrence) or lower? it does not seem like you would need too much more to have a "constant" appearing spark like Kapanadze has. I guess something over about 70hz would appear constant to us. (Maybe less for an old guy like me)

Bill

Smaller capacitors will produce smaller sparks at a higher rate, larger capacitors will produce larger sparks at a slower rate. For a given source power. Increasing source power increases pulse rate.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 14, 2009, 10:47:19 PM

so i may have a few units built for this porpous already ...

hummm

i was gonna zap a neo

i have a CONSTANT OUT PUT IN A CAP OF 2-300 VDC .. I CAN CONSTANTALLY SHORT IT ... and have a high freq spark gap

ist!

and yesssssss IF YOU TOUCH IT .. it hurts ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on December 14, 2009, 11:58:47 PM

xee2 and all
in the whole building this circuit.. i had in my mind that i would be able to recover the bemf back to the cap.. but i have yet to find any
this being weird for me cause i have built a bunch of 12v ign coil pulser... with bemf enough to pop a 200v 12a mosfet....?
well now i am pulsing a coil with 300+ volts with no bemf??

many of thanks to jeanna and mk1 cause i wouldn't be able to charge this cap
w/o the toroid setup

so what you think of the emf thing
i know the scr opens and closes much sharper than a transistor
but wouldn't that cause more bemf

thanks
robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 15, 2009, 12:08:27 AM

@ kooler

Quote from: kooler on December 14, 2009, 11:58:47 PM
xee2 and all
in the whole building this circuit.. i had in my mind that i would be able to recover the bemf back to the cap.. but i have yet to find any
this being weird for me cause i have built a bunch of 12v ign coil pulser... with bemf enough to pop a 200v 12a mosfet....?
well now i am pulsing a coil with 300+ volts with no bemf??

many of thanks to jeanna and mk1 cause i wouldn't be able to charge this cap
w/o the toroid setup

so what you think of the emf thing
i know the scr opens and closes much sharper than a transistor
but wouldn't that cause more bemf

thanks
robbie

Back EMF is caused when the circuit is opened while current is flowing through the coil. This circuit is not opened until there is no longer any current flowing through the coil. Thus no back EMF.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 15, 2009, 12:21:53 AM

@ kooler

Video of circuit 16 with 2 uF capacitor making filament of 120 volt light bulb glow. This is not very impressive but could not be done with a 1.5 volt battery without the current boost circuit. This is a pretty heavy duty 7 watt bulb, your nite light probably glows brighter. Coil was replaced with bulb.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on December 15, 2009, 12:26:31 AM

thanks for the reply
i see now.. because this circuit is closed while current is building up to be released

i am still learning alot...

well you can see i was wrong while thinking this circuit up..lol

oh, one more thing how come when i put two toroids side by side and wind my base and collector on it drops my ma draw by half..
well lets say i got two toroids with 300 turns on each then put them side by side and wind on one set of the turns for the jt it still gives me 456 volts which is only half of what i get if i done two separate jt's but it drops by half.. lets say 101ma's to 49ma's.. but it still charges a cap just as fast but no faster
if this is confusing i will make one and take a pic

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 15, 2009, 12:35:14 AM

@kooler

Quote from: kooler on December 15, 2009, 12:26:31 AM
thanks for the reply
i see now.. because this circuit is closed while current is building up to be released

i am still learning alot...

well you can see i was wrong while thinking this circuit up..lol

oh, one more thing how come when i put two toroids side by side and wind my base and collector on it drops my ma draw by half..
well lets say i got two toroids with 300 turns on each then put them side by side and wind on one set of the turns for the jt it still gives me 456 volts which is only half of what i get if i done two separate jt's but it drops by half.. lets say 101ma's to 49ma's.. but it still charges a cap just as fast but no faster
if this is confusing i will make one and take a pic

This is a great circuit for doing tests like that (comparing one toroid output against a different design). I am not sure I understand your question, but doubling the thickness of the toroid will increase the inductance per turn which means that 300 turns will produce a higher output voltage using the thicker core. Can you explain a bit more about what you are doing?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 15, 2009, 12:36:24 AM

here is a song

TO TO africa

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdBcfRhzzAA

so i made them a gift ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7dxBlWO3wA

a picture

10 led candle : ) just cuz i do care !

william

it gets shipped tommorow! i ask for nothing in return! : )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on December 15, 2009, 12:39:59 AM

i probably post a pic of it soon but think of a set of eye balls with the jt winding holding it together

or think of the way a magamp is made then put them closer together and wind only one set of input turns on

i'll post a pic soon so you can see the detail

thanks man
robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 15, 2009, 12:45:48 AM

@ kooler

Quote from: kooler on December 15, 2009, 12:39:59 AM
i probably post a pic of it soon but think of a set of eye balls with the jt winding holding it together

or think of the way a magamp is made then put them closer together and wind only one set of input turns on

i'll post a pic soon so you can see the detail

thanks man
robbie

If you get the same output power with less input mA then that is something worth pursuing.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on December 15, 2009, 12:49:00 AM

kool xee2,
i'll build one so i can show u all.. it may even help with the smaller cores

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 15, 2009, 01:13:32 AM

For jeanna,

Attached video shows how much brighter filament bulbs are using this circuit than they would be with just the 1.5 volt battery. I do not have a bunch of LEDs, but I hope you can see how bright this would be if LEDs were used instead of filament bulbs (with care taken not to zap the LEDs).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 15, 2009, 01:42:40 AM

i managed to LOCATE SOME 1000VDC caps .0068 the big redie orange ones...

i dont like to play with thease much as they can kill you ..

i may try to charge them up at some point and discharge through a gap .. i probally have a bunch of em

ist!

the lower voltage caps that i can short at high speed .. are 100nf caps 275v

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on December 15, 2009, 06:37:50 AM

probably going to grab some HV diodes at some point. Any recommendations?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 15, 2009, 06:51:13 AM

@all Thanks for all the good information. I like to play with a spark or too also and i see potential with the fat blue sparks . . Those mots are just a buzzin .
Ist Nice Light board Man i like that ! Your GOt a Good Heart and Spirit !

@Jeanna . Yes your right and i said Diffuser what i meant was Protector and i also said i Luv you meaning I Love your Work and stuff(Meds were kicked in 4 sure') But yes leds need a good lens . I saw a glass one with little ferensal triangles that was cone shaped but is was 3dollars and couldn't make myself buy it :) It would have amplified the light and i know it would a candle . Anyways i have played with light amplifying plastics and Lucite and acrylics with lots of flat edges carry light in all directions .
@kooler . What part of the South you from man ? I was born in Corpus Christi and settled in NC but been all around . I never picked up an accent cause i move to Bahrain for 4 years before living here .My little one is a Daisy Duke 100% :)
I'm still a Southern Man but CSNY will still be my favorite all time band. 4 way street
xee2 that will charge Bcaps .

Well Christmas is almost here so Wishing you all a Merry Christmas and Great Days ahead .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 15, 2009, 10:23:45 AM

@ everyone

The circuit that kooler and I are working with is dangerous. IT CAN KILL YOU! Unless you are familiar with high voltage you should not try to build it. But, the concept can be scaled down to much lower voltages and currents. I think a low voltage version could be used with a JT so that the JT would light an LED brightly using only a fraction of a mA of current. Thus providing years of light from a single battery. I am trying to replicate the kooler circuit as a first step towards that goal and other circuit ideas I have. The tests I am performing are dangerous. I am posting my results for kooler, they are not suggestions for others to try.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 15, 2009, 10:40:28 AM

yes i dont reccomend anyone play with those ..

unless you have safety training .. wich i dont ... so i dont play them ..

my old board im digging out .. is ALSO NOT RECCOMENDED

for un experienced .. as the out put i have mesured is ..

infact 878vac at 150 ma!

constant! that is gonna hurt ya... so no being dumb!

ist!

with this board and a jt power can with the 650f ultra cap .. it will run from 1 aa battery ...

in my videos i used 36 aaa'S .... lol now i can use 1

and have min 150 ma 875vac for days and days and days ..

just got back from digging it out ... and along with it i brought many of its friends ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 15, 2009, 11:20:25 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on December 15, 2009, 06:37:50 AM
probably going to grab some HV diodes at some point. Any recommendations?

i highly reccomend thease ... great way to protect fets ...

and rectify hivolt high freq HIGH AMP!

smile

you know you really have no idea how much you built till you digg it out and look at the MOUNTIANS!

and im not jokeing ... i must have 1000 plus diffrent things .. YIKES..

i added some pictures of the spec sheets for the rectifier diodes ..

it will take like 120 000 watt to blow it .. and the other can rectify that much ..

ist!

they are NOT CHEEP AND SPECIAL ORDOR bout 40 each cdn ! if you can find them ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on December 15, 2009, 12:45:55 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on December 15, 2009, 06:37:50 AM
probably going to grab some HV diodes at some point. Any recommendations?

Jadaro

I like the 1n4007s
for expermenting I don't see any reason to buy a diode that is likely to blow out.
These are one of the kinds of diodes that worked well on the water arc thread

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on December 15, 2009, 12:52:19 PM

In this video I have a Joule Thief running a SEC 15 and lighting a 4w CFL off a 1.5v AA battery.

The transformer is from an old PC power supply.
I have three small magnets on top of the transformer to help with oscillation.

The BEMF from the JT is going into the big cap and running the SEC 15.

Here is the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FvOdBpvn5Q

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 15, 2009, 02:00:43 PM

i have been forced to scrap my huge rf amps .... : (

in doing so i get lots of odd parts... : )

also i discover there a few bucks of GOLD in them! : )) maybe 1/2 ounce in each

so i hope to gain some money to further my work ..

ist!

ps all pins connectors and such are GOLD ...

i have hundreds like thease

much of the board showen in pic # 12 is made of gold!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 15, 2009, 02:02:55 PM

Hi slayer007

Thanks for posting the video link. Have you watched kooler videos?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on December 15, 2009, 02:17:22 PM

Quote from: xee2 on December 15, 2009, 02:02:55 PM
Hi slayer007

Thanks for posting the video link. Have you watched kooler videos?

Hello Xee2

Yes I seen his video very impressive. :o

Also thank you for posting the circuit for it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 15, 2009, 02:27:57 PM

im blowen away ...

i took a pin out .. it is solid gold .. 2 of em weigh .5 gram .. lol

HOLY SH!#

me happy

ist!

each connector is 3 grams of gold .. i have a few of those .. maybe 100 and they take me 5 min to take apart ..

merry christmas to me ... lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 15, 2009, 02:38:32 PM

Slayer:

Nice video. I may need to ask you some questions in order to get my SEC-18-1 up and running. I have not had the time as of yet to do anything with it. Your tube looked good and bright there.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on December 15, 2009, 02:46:55 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 15, 2009, 02:38:32 PM
Slayer:

Nice video. I may need to ask you some questions in order to get my SEC-18-1 up and running. I have not had the time as of yet to do anything with it. Your tube looked good and bright there.

Bill

Thanks Bill

Ask any questions you would like.
And I'll try to answer them lol.

Your going to like playing with that SEC 18.
lots of fun experiments you can do with that baby.

I also have one more of them transformers I would like to have one run the other then run the SEC 15.
Just to see if I can get any more out of it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on December 15, 2009, 03:30:52 PM

It is the led that needs the diffuser.
All that brightness goes straight onto the ceiling.
An LED only brightens a room if it can be diffused.
Make sense?

jeanna
[/quote]Hi Jeanna,

I have used frosting aerosal spray, it's ideal for diffusing Led's... just spray it on and let it dry.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 15, 2009, 03:45:54 PM

Quote from: kooler on December 14, 2009, 11:58:47 PM
...
in the whole building this circuit.. i had in my mind that i would be able to recover the bemf back to the cap.. but i have yet to find any
this being weird for me cause i have built a bunch of 12v ign coil pulser... with bemf enough to pop a 200v 12a mosfet....?
well now i am pulsing a coil with 300+ volts with no bemf??

I think you are seeing the bemf. The proof is in the lights.
Neons need over 120v pulsed to light and I think I see a lot of neons!!

You have considerable output in your circuit.
Once you use the output it is no longer available for use.
I believe if you could get the frequency up a bit, the lights would appear to be staying on. (Bill said this, I agree.)

Quotemany of thanks to jeanna and mk1 cause i wouldn't be able to charge this cap
w/o the toroid setup

Thanks kooler, I am really glad to hear this has helped someone.

Quoteso what you think of the emf thing
i know the scr opens and closes much sharper than a transistor
but wouldn't that cause more bemf

What if you remove one or 2 of those lights? do the others get brighter?
I think you need to find the bemf. You are certainly producing it every time the pulse goes through any inductor in your series of inductors; and if you do not find it and capture it, it will radiate and dissipate.

I was too close to it when I was working with my circuit for a long time. Now, I am thinking that my process was exactly what I just described.
I had the advantage of the scope and I could see what area was showing me volts enough to light another led.

The wonderful part is that most of the time when I focused on that spot, I not only found the bemf and put it to use, I often found more than I expected.
I only need about 5 volts to light up a led, so if I have 30v and cannot light an led, I know it is going where I am not looking.

In limiting the amounts of voltage in my circuit, I am able to observe small but meaningful changes.
So, if I observe as little as 5 more volts, I know I have done something.
If, like you, I needed to add 120v before I knew I had something, then I might have missed some clues.
But then YOU have managed to light a STRING of neons! this is astonishing.

And since you have found a way to get the filament lights, this means you have also found a way to get heaters to turn on.
If it can pulse at a frequency to warm up a filament of a heater from a 1.2v battery, you have done something great...wow!

So,
Please continue.
Find another space that doesn't bother people's ears, and carry on.

I will be doing some more at the lower voltages because that is what works for me.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 15, 2009, 03:48:03 PM

Quote from: crowclaw on December 15, 2009, 03:30:52 PM

I have used frosting aerosal spray, it's ideal for diffusing Led's... just spray it on and let it dry.

I am not a shopper and I have no idea what this is!

Is it a christmas thing?

thank you,

jeanna

edit
@IST found the motherload! ;D
good job.
recover recycle!
j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 15, 2009, 04:06:02 PM

well

i atacked 4 rf amps i have now over 1 ounce of gold .. and there is still a few ounces left in just those 4 amps who would a thought ......

ist!

i have 15 more to dissassemble ..

those are only the male ends i have still all the female ends in the amps 4 per amp .. wow!

btw there is no way in heck i can get it to stick to a magnet .. aside crazy glue ..

even 15 bucks a gram .. well worth my time ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on December 15, 2009, 04:12:33 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on December 14, 2009, 05:58:16 PM
I think it will work with high current pulses . . Maybe not But i could try to do your first stage and check it out . I need more than 5 ma i get now . It charges it but takes a day . If i had 20 ma it would cut the time considerable . I need to play with My Hv flyback and see if the cap will convert it first i guess . if it does then a spark gap charger with high current pulses might work , i think ? no ? HAve any of yu tried to charge a 10f to 30 supercap up ? or just a plain electrolytic ?

Hi Gadgett,
The problem with charging caps is their capacitance value! basically the lower value caps will charge up very quickly but are useless to power anything as they discharge very quickly. Super caps/ultra caps will charge over time but need some current restriction otherwise their initial current demand is far to high for your present design to deliver. Think along the lines of a power transformer e.g.110v input/ 12volts output, primary will have more turns, secondary winding will have less with far heavier gauge copper wire to deliver high current at low voltage. You may be able to produce a high voltage spark with a fair crack but you haven't got enough current to do anything really usefull with as the impedance or DC resistance due to the windings is to high. The thing to remember here is that LED's are basically high impedance and will give a good light output for only a few milliamps of input current. Again a CFL (tube only) requires a high voltage to light the tube, but the current is negligible. So to charge cells and caps quickly you need low volts and high Ma/amps. Otherwise it can take hours and hours, you also need to monitor your source currents while experimenting. You can quickly discharge AA's etc. which can diffeat the object of your projects.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 15, 2009, 04:14:00 PM

@ kooler

Some spark photos. Video attached. These are with a 2 uF capacitor and 4 neons.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on December 15, 2009, 04:47:20 PM

Quote from: jeanna on December 15, 2009, 03:48:03 PM
I am not a shopper and I have no idea what this is!

Is it a christmas thing?

thank you,

jeanna

j

It's available hear in the UK from Hobby shop's and DIY stores. It's very similar to clear laquer spray but dries frosty when sprayed onto a glass surface. LED's as you know have a projected light so frosting spray gives a more even spread of light around the glass body. I'll try and find my can out and see if there is a Web address if your'e interested.
Merv

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 15, 2009, 05:41:46 PM

Thanks crowclaw,
I found enough info.
In the states, rustoleum make this kind of paint.
The acrylic glow paint I tried last year did make the led safer to my eyes, but I do not think it spread the light like a good diffuser.
So, a thrift store drinking glass painted with this spray frost on the inside might work well.
=====
@All,

I did a lot of experimenting with diffusers about 6 years ago.

I had made some single orange colored led candles.
They were rated at k mcd, so a simple calculation told me this was rated at the equivalent of 9 candles.
NOT EVEN CLOSE!

These were made with 2AAA batteries a 47 ohm resistor and a push switch and , of course, the single led.

I tried a lot of things then I literally lit a candle.
I saw that much of what lights the room from the candle is the hot pool of wax and to some extent the entire candle, because all of it glows a little.

In my video I showed my very effective and very cheap overturned plastic cup.

But the real discovery was a kind of paper called vellum.
There are different qualities and your stationery store may have a good one..I hope.

I made a variety of tubes to surround the single led and found that the 1 inch long tube made less light than the 11 inch tube. I made a tube with a 3 inch diameter by 5 inch length. That worked great too. And when I added the overturned plastic cup on the top of this long and fat tube, it added another 4 1/2 inches to the glow of the candle.

Last week after I made the video of the globe light with 24 leds, I surrounded the lights with a tube of vellum inside the globe. This worked well. This light fills the room better and with more light than the cfl. (But without the paper it is a bunch of spots and not as good.)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 15, 2009, 06:34:27 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on December 15, 2009, 02:00:43 PM
i have been forced to scrap my huge rf amps .... : (

in doing so i get lots of odd parts... : )

also i discover there a few bucks of GOLD in them! : )) maybe 1/2 ounce in each

so i hope to gain some money to further my work ..

ist!

ps all pins connectors and such are GOLD ...

i have hundreds like thease

much of the board showen in pic # 12 is made of gold!

Send me about 6 grams . that ought to cover shipping ;) Ahhh 15 a gram hu . Hmmm . Better make that a half ounce . :) You need to check it at a jeweler . If you can put teeth marks i it you got something other wise its copper with 10k plate

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on December 15, 2009, 06:47:36 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on December 15, 2009, 06:51:13 AM
@kooler . What part of the South you from man ? I was born in Corpus Christi and settled in NC but been all around . I never picked up an accent cause i move to Bahrain for 4 years before living here .My little one is a Daisy Duke 100% :)
I'm still a Southern Man but CSNY will still be my favorite all time band. 4 way street

well thanks gadget for pointing out i have a accent.. that i didn't know i had.
no wondering people look at me like i'm a dumb hillbilly...
ah well chicks digg it... lol
here one of my kin folk on a date

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on December 15, 2009, 06:50:46 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on December 15, 2009, 06:34:27 PM
Send me about 6 grams . that ought to cover shipping ;) Ahhh 15 a gram hu . Hmmm . Better make that a half ounce . :) You need to check it at a jeweler . If you can put teeth marks i it you got something other wise its copper with 10k plate

I agree. I am sure that they are only gold plated and not worth much. A trip to the jewelers is good advice.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 15, 2009, 06:53:09 PM

Quote from: xee2 on December 15, 2009, 10:23:45 AM
@ everyone

The circuit that kooler and I are working with is dangerous. IT CAN KILL YOU! Unless you are familiar with high voltage you should not try to build it. But, the concept can be scaled down to much lower voltages and currents. I think a low voltage version could be used with a JT so that the JT would light an LED brightly using only a fraction of a mA of current. Thus providing years of light from a single battery. I am trying to replicate the kooler circuit as a first step towards that goal and other circuit ideas I have. The tests I am performing are dangerous. I am posting my results for kooler, they are not suggestions for others to try.

Good info ! As for me i have been around HV most of my life including Fly backs and microwaves so its Kool if of you know what you are doing and where to keep your hand (one always away !) I have one around here with 2 inch sparks buts its an hf freq. runs from from two 2n3055's and a flyback from a tv . Its 12 v though. Its neat you can get killed now from a 1 volt battery . Probably a watch battery also :) I like future weapons !Never have enuff stuff why the ball drops ! . I have to find My pain field generator too !. BIG ultrasonics and big headaches in a field of pain ! Anyone remember information unlimited ? I bought lots of their stuff .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hartiberlin on December 15, 2009, 07:27:05 PM

@xee2,
well done.

Could you put a e.g. 20 or 40 Watts fluorescent bulb between
your high voltage output, instead of your sparks and
show it, how bright it will be lit ?

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on December 15, 2009, 08:28:47 PM

stefan
did you watch the video at the end i have a 13watt on the mot
alot more could be put there...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruJXtBby-pw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruJXtBby-pw)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 15, 2009, 08:58:52 PM

Quote from: kooler on December 15, 2009, 06:47:36 PM
well thanks gadget for pointing out i have a accent.. that i didn't know i had.
no wondering people look at me like i'm a dumb hillbilly...
ah well chicks digg it... lol
here one of my kin folk on a date

MY daughter came in here and asked me Why was i laughing so hard for ;D Dang that was funny . ! your too Cool !
everyone around here have the south in em . I fake it sometimes cause yea the chicks do dig it 8) !

Yall have a good one , Here .

Merry Christmas Man to and Yours Kooler . Wow tears in My eyes

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 15, 2009, 09:25:39 PM

i got me some sore fingers and now a darn 1/4 lb of gold .. i think i should be pushing a a hole half pound! time im done .....

wow .. and i was gonna sell them and scrap the rest ...

ist

shakes his head and says i yi yi .. what a place we live in ... do do do im gump in it ! : )

raggs to riches in more ways than 1 lol

it is solid gold i have cut HUNDREDS OF THEM ... THE COLOUR DONT CHANGE ... lol

ill show where the connectors come from then youll understand ...

thease amps im destorying are 40 watt plus rf amps !! you need a licence to broad cast with a 2 watt amp ...

imagine if it was any less qualty than 24k .. the destorion that would occour...

yes sir i know what i have ... i just walked into 5000 dollars from junk this morn ...

and i sold my sis an ounce for 20 bucks ... cuz it is christmas and im a nice guy ...

: )

ps gadget dont sell all those caps on me ... lol im a get some of the big ones now ... : )

here is a picture of my sore fingers work so far .. this is 120 grams .. solid gold from junk ..

btw thease amps dont cost 1800 each ... cus they used gold plated junk ... lmao ..

for scrap i will get 25 bucks a case there bouts for the alum there only a handful of components in 1 of thease ... plus looks like SILVER wire too who knows ... might even be gold core ...

imagine the sh!ft i can build with thease materials ....

hummmmmmmmmmmm.......

silver and gold .... yikes.

the 2 small bags 1/2 ounce each .. hummmmm and i have 6 or 8 more amps to take apart ... yet .. this was about 7 compleat amps .. maybe 8 to get a 1/4lb of it .. omg who would a thought ....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 15, 2009, 09:40:57 PM

Hi everybody,
I got the 3 toroids today.
I also made my first openoffice spreadsheet. They are all visicalc and sort of the same.
So I saved it as a pdf and here it is.
2 pages
page 1 the biggo 3.38 Inches comparing the J type with the W type which is what we certainly have.
1-10 turns
page 2
I ordered a 2 1/2 inch that is thicker because of the math. I thought the results would be good and wow they are better. The J type is as good as the biggo W type and the W type on this is better than anything.
That is if higher inductance is the goal...and I believe it is.
This is not big enough to drop the spool into the middle but it is smaller as a toroid and could fit nicely into smaller items.

I saved this as a pdf. Please let me know if you are not able to see both pages.
Step one complete...
Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 15, 2009, 10:28:11 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on December 15, 2009, 09:40:57 PM
I saved this as a pdf. Please let me know if you are not able to see both pages.
Step one complete...

Toroid dimensions. You may want to add this to your PDF. Personally, I find it easier to wind the larger diameter toroids.

EDIT: note dimensions are in cm.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 15, 2009, 10:28:13 PM

Hi Jeanna . Is this what your were waiting for from cali ? And are you saying that they are as good as out big cores ? Please pm me with the part numbers and phone for them . and /or if everybody wants to pitch in we can do that . I can carry some on the site if need be . I would like 30 bucks worth at least .Also do they have BIg one also?

Albert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 15, 2009, 10:42:58 PM

it is really TOOOOO bad for this world ...

i just wanted a little funding ... now look i take apart those rf amps ...

now your in for it .... and this my friends is no joke...

look what is inside 1 of thease amps ... thease are the small ones with out all the gold ...

high freq gold crystals .. big caps and tonnes of toroides ...
and some really nice diodes.. mosfets the whole bit ... its a smorg and im hungry like i have not eaten in a month ...

like i said i really never want to take thease apart but now its tooooooo late....

i have silver wire ... what does this mean ... ? i also have 1000vdc caps and pulse amps ... duh!

lol waite till you see thease puppys ... ac and DC ... imagine ... lol

i have 15 there bouts of thease ... they send power over over the coax ... to this invertor ... it powers the invertor then proceeds to power up the trunk amp .... yea .... they will BURN YOUR SOCKS OFF NOT JUST BLOW EM OFF... LOL

ist

the female gold connectors 2 grams of gold .. the male 4 grams .. each amp has 4 female and up to 4 male .. plus all the gold on the boards ... more than at least 1/2 ounce each .. not the small amps ... first 3 pics small amps ..

in the last pic there 3 female connectors you can see 6 grams 24k gold and the thick silver wires .. there many of them i think the center is gold core ... pulse the silver collect on the gold ...

wild nuts ...

btw those 3 female connector you can see are worth about 120 cdn after i remove just the gold ...

6 grams x 20 bucks/g ... and thats giveing it away ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 16, 2009, 12:00:16 AM

@ jeanna

Using your inductance data, the relative permeability for the W material is 15,000.

Inductance in mH of a single coil on the 3.38" toroid is = 0.00777 x (number of turns squared)

(adding more coils on same toroid will change inductance of any coils already on toroid)

Thanks for taking the data.

edit was made to correct typo.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 16, 2009, 12:05:09 AM

Jeanna:

I have to agree that winding the toroids where you can actually pass the spool through is important to me. OK, so I am lazy, I admit it. Heck, I barely had the patience to wind those 330 or so winds when I could pass the spool through, ha ha.

Great job on locating the distributor for the source of these toroids. I am sure this will be very helpful here to a lot of folks.

Thank you for taking the time to evaluate all of this. You are a true experimenter and researcher Jeanna. I am so glad you are here.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 16, 2009, 12:20:15 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on December 15, 2009, 10:28:13 PM
And are you saying that they are as good as out big cores ?
.... . I can carry some on the site if need be . I would like 30 bucks worth at least .Also do they have BIg one also?

These came as free samples from the MMI company as did yours and Bills.
I am hoping people will be getting these from you.
My first desire was to prove that the big one with the W core is the one we want.

We had 2 experts here who disagreed and I wanted proof.
And, yes, the W which is very high permeability is better.
I will be winding a toroid tonight and tomorrow using the 2 smaller ones. See, the J of the smaller is as good as the W of the bigger one.
I wanted to test these.
Yes we can all get 30 dollars worth of the 1 kind, but what if the 2 1/2 is as good? Or better?
I had also asked for a 1 1/2 inch one which might be as good, but it was not in the sample department.

I do not know the stock of the company in CA. I will ask them tomorrow.

Remember that recently I have made a 411 volt secondary from the little tor-23 which is available and 10 cents each.
That high voltage was not even necessary to make that bright globe lamp. (=brighter than the cfl with the biggo toroid)

According to the formula given on the gsu website the cross sectional area (A) of the toroid material is an important element. The fatter the donut the more food. Also the smaller the overall diameter the better.(/ 2pi r) I wanted to check this out with materials whose permeability is known.

It works too.
The 2 1/2 inch toroid is both narrower in OD and chunkier in material and it has a much higher inductance ( L) value.

We have waited this long, so I want to follow up with the company so they understand what is going on. You can place an order before I make my next light if you want to. It will only cost you extra shipping and bigger stock if it turns out to be something lots of people want. So, I say wait.

It is up to you.

xee2 just posted the numbers of what I have as samples.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 16, 2009, 12:36:51 AM

Quote from: xee2 on December 16, 2009, 12:00:16 AM
@ jeanna

Using your inductance data, the relative permeability for the W material is 15,000.

Inductance in mH of a single coil on the 3.38" toroid is = 0.0777 x (number of turns squared)

(adding more coils on same toroid will change inductance of any coils already on toroid)

Thanks for taking the data.

You are welcome.
In fact the measured inductance of 3 turns is what is .077mH not one turn.

I think we can count on these being good toroids.

@Bill.
I understand about not liking to spool off and cut before winding, but remember that you needed to gouge out the box a little to fit that toroid.
It will be a personal preferences thing in the end, but I think there are others like me who like little and light.

I'm gonna wind one and see.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 16, 2009, 01:05:16 AM

Jeanna:

Well, it is extra hard when you live with a cat. She was attacking the wire when it was on the spool. Can you imagine what she would do if it were lying in a mass on the floor? She is 16+ but still a highly trained attack cat.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 16, 2009, 01:55:15 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 16, 2009, 01:05:16 AM
Jeanna:

Well, it is extra hard when you live with a cat.
.... highly trained attack cat.

Bill

;D ;D
That is funny, Bill.

I will wind a real one tomorrow.
I just made one with 2T,6T,26T and the 26 turns took one wingspan or around 5 feet.
(This is enough for 84T on the tor-23 which lights a neon.)
This gets close but 164v is not enough to light a neon when they are pointy spikes.
The frequency here is 26khz and very promising.
I will wind 13 times that for a 330 turn secondary and see how it goes.
Maybe a straw will make a good winding bobbin.

I too do not love having the wire all around me, even without a cat.
I am happy to report that the
OW48613TC is the one we want lots of.
If you or gadget or anybody wants to order a bunch of them tomorrow, I say go for it.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 16, 2009, 02:04:32 AM

Jeanna:

That is great news!

I have a question for you. As you saw in my video, with about 330 turns on the big toroid I have plenty of space left. Sooooo, what I was thinking is this....can I go ahead and wind, say, another 100 turns and wire that into my circuit in parallel? In other words, I would just wind it and splice that into my output connections to the CFL. This would be pretty easy to do but I wonder if you know anything about the effect it might have on the circuit. If it goes to the same place but yet originates on the other side of the coil, (2nd pick-up coil) will this introduce a cavitation like effect that cancels out some of the pulses? Or, will it just think that I had wound 430 winds to begin with?

I am asking because, yes, I want more voltage. I want flames coming off my toroid in the box. I want to walk within 2 feet of it and get a shock. (not really)

What do you think?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 16, 2009, 02:35:24 AM

i feel sad i had to destory my nice toys ... b4 i even had a chance to look at them

damm near cry ...

too bad

then the sheep come running with there money lmao i dont want your money ... and i ask the sheep does your money for give your sins ? afraid not ... hence the councel!

tic toc tic toc!

but i can tell you this entire world wants my work ...

o well

all i really wanted was to spend my time with my kids ... but i couldnt even get that ...

so i took all that was mine back!

how do you all like it ?

william!

and the other funny thing ... I RELEASE MY WORK HERE ... and for the thanks i get ... couldnt even cover the shipping of my materials ... lol wwwwwoooooowwwwww what a joke ... a world of sheep !

glad i threw the alien off the ship ? ? hummmm lol

you have no idea the importance!!!!

the next 1 i will not throw off ...

ENJOY!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 16, 2009, 02:46:37 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 16, 2009, 02:04:32 AM
Jeanna:

That is great news!

I have a question for you. As you saw in my video, with about 330 turns on the big toroid I have plenty of space left. Sooooo, what I was thinking is this....can I go ahead and wind, say, another 100 turns and wire that into my circuit in parallel? In other words, I would just wind it and splice that into my output connections to the CFL. This would be pretty easy to do but I wonder if you know anything about the effect it might have on the circuit. If it goes to the same place but yet originates on the other side of the coil, (2nd pick-up coil) will this introduce a cavitation like effect that cancels out some of the pulses? Or, will it just think that I had wound 430 winds to begin with?

I am asking because, yes, I want more voltage. I want flames coming off my toroid in the box. I want to walk within 2 feet of it and get a shock. (not really)

What do you think?

Bill

If you make a second pick up coil only one will light at a time...
That is unless you add another inductor in series with one of the circuits.
I think you are wishing you had made your first secondary a longer one?

I think since you still have 2 more cores you could use one of them and wind 500 turns around it.
This should give you well over 1000 volts.
If you use my new winding style you will get over 2000 volts, and I bet you can do a lidmotor-kooler replication without the ignition coil if you do this.

Wanna try it? ;)
then it would be a pirate-lidmotor-kooler replication. Would that be great?

Good night,

jeanna

@ist,
It is very sad. I am sorry.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 16, 2009, 02:51:48 AM

YOU ALL GET TO LIVE YOUR SAD REALITY ...

thos words are far more than you all will come to realize!

w

TODAY IS THE SADEST DAY THIS WORLD WILL EVER KNOW !

SO SAD I SHED A TEAR FOR YOU ALL !

btw no pattends are gined and im still same old me ... same old me

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 16, 2009, 02:56:43 AM

IST:

Reality can be sad, very sad, or...we can make it what we want it to be. We have that choice. Trust me, I learned this after my divorce 16 years ago. Feel free to pm me if you want to talk.

Take care man,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 16, 2009, 03:01:33 AM

the reality is soooo many fail ..

my ship leaves empty .....

thats how sad this place is ...

it comes and goes much sooner than you think ...

w

yes bill i know bitch problems all too well .... this got nutting to do with that! that is just another piss off ... some are just far to dumb ..

the all american dream going 15 for free... it dont go down like that ... karma is karma for a reason ...

and i honestly was no angel .. growing up ...

if you knew how many computers i have gone through and all the other crap that got destoryed time and time agin ... just like my water turbine ... it is still smashed ... tonnes of money and hours of labour .. in 1 fit smashed ...

but you can not destory perfection ... i set it back up and supnn it for her and said SEE...

2 good things came from 13 years of hell

my 2 children .. and i still bairly see them ... her choise! so be it ...

guess i need TO OWN EVERY GOVERMENT ON THE DAMM PLANET TO SEE MY KIDS ... MY MY MY

SO BE IT!

btw today i dug out 25 more old coils .... but i have almost no desire to share them anymore ...

ill only get the mike treatment agin .. or some other fool will try to steal it or hold another 300 billion over as a carrot ... yawn.... getting old and boring ...

but my sh!ft is always fresh and new ...

and i got things i can not talk of if i like my computer in working conditon !

and it makes me wonder do do do do .. do .......do.... do ..

and you cant buy the stairway to heaven ! .......

if you get there you ll know the stores will be all closed ...
money dont get you what you came for .....

i came to share what they never let me the last time i was on planet EARTH!

i since have done so!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 16, 2009, 03:12:23 AM

@ist!

If you need anything pm...

The times we live in are the worst ever , you can't tell anyone the truth , they can handle it , they are either scared or brain washed , either way , they are sleeping at the wheel .

Take care bros !

I never left this site , a may not always look like i am here , but i have been here for more then 365 days in a row .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 16, 2009, 05:35:05 AM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on December 16, 2009, 12:36:51 AM
In fact the measured inductance of 3 turns is what is .077mH not one turn.

Woops. Typo. Sorry, the equation was suppose to be:

mH inductance = 0.00777 x (number of turns squared)

I think you will find that fits your data with only small differences. For example, 3 turns would be 0.00777 X 9 = 0.06993 mH calculated and you measured 0.071 mH.

I corrected the original post.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on December 16, 2009, 06:36:40 AM

@ALL

It's Christmas time again, so here's electricme wishing everyone on the forum a merry and safe Christmas. :D

below is one of the nicest things that has happened to me for a very long time.

@ Gadget

Look what I found in my mail box late this afternoon, whacko, a big toroid, and 4 goodies, now I can make the famous Jeanna Light!
Thanks Albert. ;D

jim

PS to all, I have already sent Al a more detailed PM thank you.

@ Jeanna,
Do I follow you wynds or Lidmotors winds, (spelling is not my forte tonight)

@ Bill
Should I mount it on a what doova when she works?
jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 16, 2009, 08:46:26 AM

Electricme (Jim)You have been a good boy this year ) A friend afar is worth more to me than stuff . You are way better than I could ever be. Merry Christmas and have some Fun ! ME i have to go Christmas shipping and shopping . Only 8 more days till the eve .

Peace My Aussi Brother !

Albert

aka Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on December 16, 2009, 08:49:45 AM

Quote from: jeanna on December 16, 2009, 02:46:37 AM
If you make a second pick up coil only one will light at a time...
That is unless you add another inductor in series with one of the circuits.
I think you are wishing you had made your first secondary a longer one?

I think since you still have 2 more cores you could use one of them and wind 500 turns around it.
This should give you well over 1000 volts.
If you use my new winding style you will get over 2000 volts, and I bet you can do a lidmotor-kooler replication without the ignition coil if you do this.

Wanna try it? ;)
then it would be a pirate-lidmotor-kooler replication. Would that be great?

Good night,

jeanna

@ist,
It is very sad. I am sorry.

Jeanna I think I missed your new winding style? What are you doing differently? If you don't feel like repeating yourself I understand...could you derect me to the page???

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 16, 2009, 10:55:54 AM

im over my rant ... now

and i do wonder what came over me .. how ever i did see a odd light in the night sky last night

none the less ... i found out after i destoryed all my toys some one wants to pour money in ...

i would have said yes but .. i was so discouraged that i had to destory that i freqed ...

so what bout the gold it was a nice find .. but in all honesty i could care less i hope that my speeking of it and showing what is INSIDE SOMETHINGS.. brought light to those that dont realize what they throw away ...

plus as if i dont have enough inventions ... i now have BOXES FULL OF specialty parts .. to build even more stuff ...

but why do i need to build more ... when so few understand .. what i have already done ...

w

i will add some picture OF THE NEW TOYS I HAVE AQUIRED ...

there many ... and they aint your normal parts ..

i ask gadget if he knows what this is ...

it is like a large neon/ reed sw / vaccume tube
i nave no idea what they are ... i have 10 or 15 of em

i apoligize ... for my unhappy times ...

as 1 thing leads to another i discover i have linex's and 400 or so ..

each one has 14 grams of the golden stuff in them in them ....

ill add a pic... you wont beleave ...
in the second pictuere showen we heated 1 of the connectors to see if it was real gold then scratched it it is infact the real deal

thease 2 peices came from 1 unit .. i have hundreds more .. and this is a 1/2 oz ..

i guessing i have a cupple pounds of 24k pure gold ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 16, 2009, 02:22:35 PM

@xee2,
Thanks for the correction.
I am so glad. (I let myself try to understand it for a while, then gave up.)
And, yes, it does fit.

@Jim and stprue
I will make it in steps and take 4 pix of the stages.
...coming soon

@MK1
Keep the faith.
Do NOT let yourself get so discouraged.
Hold onto the future and image it as you want it to be.
Never give up!

@IST,
I had an idea.

Put a bunch of those gold sticks in a group and tie them together with a small rubber band or string. Make this with enough of them that the group of them is the diameter of a penny.

Make a stack of pennies that is the same height as the gold sticks.

So, now they take up approximately the same physical space.

Now weigh them and compare.
The gold should be a little more than 2 times heavier than the stack of pennies. (2.16 times)
Gold is heavier than anything including lead. Platinum (not cheap either) is the only thing heavier than gold.

Jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 16, 2009, 02:59:55 PM

Hi Ist . They look like argon discharge lamps . Kind of like a neon but blue and are made to absorb sparks/lightning . Looks . good . What frequency were the Amps / Could be worth a lot of money on ebay .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 16, 2009, 03:11:17 PM

@all

Just for fun.

I message from Nic !

Transcript

To the American Red Cross, New York City.

The retrospect is glorious, the prospect inspiring: Much might be said of both. But one idea dominates my mind. This - my best, my dearest - is for your noble cause.

I have observed electrical actions, which have appeared inexplicable. Faint and uncertain though they were, they have given me a deep conviction and foreknowledge that are ere long all human beings on this globe, as one, will turn their eyes to the firmament above, with feelings of love and reverence, thrilled by the glad news: "Brethren! We have a message from another world, unknown and remote. It reads: oneâ€¦ twoâ€¦ threeâ€¦"

Christmas 1900

Nikola Tesla

http://www.lettersofnote.com/2009/12/we-have-message-from-another-world.html

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 16, 2009, 03:22:23 PM

@To all the radio experts

Any of you have idea on making a tuned antenna , to pickup the waves from the jt , I know any radio can do it , but if we could cap those radio waves ...

Now i remember seeing a jt with an electric guitar , you could really hear some crazy stuff..

I have a guitar pickup to make some test , i will post.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on December 16, 2009, 03:38:15 PM

Has anyone developed a solid theory on the voltage oriented illumination of LED's?

I know we've proven it, practically, by lighting hundreds of LED's with an under rated current, but do we have an explanation?

It seems reasonable to say that all we need is the voltage rating of the LED to be overcome and not necessarily the the current.

Is it possible that those 6 Watt LEDs with the heat sinks may not need the heat sinks when lit as we do?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 16, 2009, 03:50:13 PM

Jadaro:

I think that is entirely possible about the 6 watters. Same reason we don't need that ballast nor the filament wire when we light the tubes and the tubes never get hot. I would hate to be wrong and fry one of those 6 watt leds though.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 16, 2009, 04:12:52 PM

thanks j

gadget

the apms are 1mhz to 1 ghz ...

3 are listed now ... but they dont have this gold in them

but are still powerful ..

there a few grand new .. im selling for what ever if you want 1 it is your FOR FREE gadget ...

i do have quite a few platuim pins too as i discover ... maybe 1/2 oz...

check you junk .. you never know what you will find ... looks like im gonna have a few pounds ... perhaps more than a few

like i said i have hundreds .. each has min 1/2 oz inside them .. thease are smaller amps .. there like booster amps ...

peace world

agin i do apoligize for my un happy time ..

mk1

if this is infact 100% true i will have a large gift for you sir!

in my understanding you need to have a verry high quality connection when working with rf ..

why gold is first choise .. i bend it easy it is soft it is heavy and it looks like gold some of the gear i have is at least 20 years old

some of the new stuff only a few years old .. but it all still works the exact same ..

it is safer for me to take them apart opsoed to fire them up and cause problems ..

w

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 16, 2009, 05:18:59 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on December 16, 2009, 03:38:15 PM
Has anyone developed a solid theory on the voltage oriented illumination of LED's?

I know we've proven it, practically, by lighting hundreds of LED's with an under rated current, but do we have an explanation?

It seems reasonable to say that all we need is the voltage rating of the LED to be overcome and not necessarily the the current.

Is it possible that those 6 Watt LEDs with the heat sinks may not need the heat sinks when lit as we do?

About 10 months ago on this thread someone better informed than I described this.
We are not really using these like diodes.
There is some directionality, but mostly what we are doing is exciting the phosphors of the phosphorus base paint they put on the blue led.
This makes it white, but it also makes it a super bright and it now has the characteristics of a fluorescent bulb.
This is the reason the high voltage works on our secondary circuits.
There are none of those things called amps, which is the wrong name anyway.
The thing that is lighting the leds is not current.
My experience more and more is making me sure of this.
I gather you too are approaching some unusual conclusions about it.

Also, they are cool.
Nothing ever heats up from the secondary.
[Now, the folks using feedback into batteries and transistors have all kinds of heat, but if you keep it all on the secondary side of the toroid, you will never need a heat sink.]

These are some of my conclusions.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 16, 2009, 05:29:33 PM

Jeanna:

Well said.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 16, 2009, 06:09:59 PM

You know that little bit of material inside those leds , i wonder why they just don't go ahead and make them 1/2 inch to a couple inches and do away with the tiny things . Wouldn't that be a sight , the power of the sun in a 2 inch round led .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on December 16, 2009, 06:52:18 PM

Well, about the voltage.

I think the electrons dropping energy levels is what's causing the light, ..the huge difference we apply gives the impression of sufficient current.

I think what we've done is shift the power dissipation of the LED over toward the Light dissipation instead. Less heat is made; more light is given off in the appropriate spectrum.

Ballasts are a result of their AC sources are they not? Something about continuously increasing current useage in such a design.

[ I really need to rewind a toroid or two. ]

Quote from: gadgetmall on December 16, 2009, 06:09:59 PM
You know that little bit of material inside those leds , i wonder why they just don't go ahead and make them 1/2 inch to a couple inches and do away with the tiny things . Wouldn't that be a sight , the power of the sun in a 2 inch round led .

Perhaps we could develop a voltage-centric modeled light emitting diode?

Maybe some links to detailed LED information are in order, a new thread even.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 16, 2009, 06:54:39 PM

Quote
You know that little bit of material inside those leds , i wonder why they just don't go ahead and make them 1/2 inch to a couple inches and do away with the tiny things . Wouldn't that be a sight , the power of the sun in a 2 inch round led .

You know gadget,
I think we are pioneering this.
There have likely been others before us, but not many.
I believe this is the real reason we do not see this anywhere.

Remember it was MK1 who first told me to remove the led and concentrate on the secondary?
I did and then someone else maybe amigo knew about the phosphors, but it is all about working together.
Some of us work on getting feedback
Some of us work on low amps draw
All of us work together in mutual respect. [even those who came for a short time then left.]

This jt tjread is probably the best example of a future where people work together for the benefit of all... and not asking for money, just doing it for the joy of it.
It is well worth re reading all the pages just for that reason.

jeanna

[[edit:

QuoteMaybe some links to detailed LED information are in order, a new thread even.

that was already suggested by amigo who gave us a link to the info]]

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tysb3 on December 16, 2009, 07:46:03 PM

Hi,
Somebody read this one? : http://www.ferromagnetic-energy.com/core_of_the_physical_effect/
and this: http://www.ferromagnetic-energy.com/core_of_the_physical_effect/equipment/

If Im right, Melnichenko use the square pulse drive signal.
What about hybrid theory?: Bedini spike pulse theory + Melnichenko magnetic field theory + JT

Im waiting my UPS delivery with electronic tools, to join good company

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 16, 2009, 08:38:15 PM

hey guys ! What you think about this . Its blinding bright . 600 turns #26 7c 2 b msp3055 1 c battery . Pictures are its own light in the dark ! bulb is white 45watt /100watt
the core was screeching so loud My daughter could hear it at the other end of the house . It Shocked the Mess out of me on the core so i dipped it in liquid latex . WIll fire it back up in the morning and mount it like a trophy !
gadget .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 16, 2009, 08:49:37 PM

@ gadgetmall

Quote from: gadgetmall on December 16, 2009, 08:38:15 PM
hey guys ! What you think about this . Its blinding bright . 600 turns #26 7c 2 b msp3055 1 c battery . Pictures are its own light in the dark ! bulb is white 45watt /100watt

gadget .

Looks good. Brighter than any of mine. What toroid did you use and what is the base resistor value?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 16, 2009, 09:05:42 PM

Quote from: xee2 on December 16, 2009, 08:49:37 PM
@ gadgetmall

Looks good. Brighter than any of mine. What toroid did you use and what is the base resistor value?

using 2.2k resistor and the Jeanna torroid i got from Mag-inc . the free samples . the number you posted for us.. Its easy to wind cause the little spools go thru it . The insulation on 600 turns was shocking and squalling so i put some HV protector on it . That Liquid Latex is great stuff.!This is a straight 600 turn secondary no overlap . I wound and left 3/4 inches for the primary loops and tuned it from 10/4 to 7 / 2 then it resonated at a lower resistance.

Suggestion for anyone else winding these uncoated toroids with thin wire . Paint them first . they conduct electricity where the grey one dont so if you wind with emanal wire over 450 turns better be safe and coat that toroid cause one little scratch on the wire and it flickers and squawels . If this dont fix it im going to have to unwind it and paint it and rewind it . One good thing about this liquid latex is it peels right off . Its just like latex gloves and stuff .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on December 16, 2009, 09:20:31 PM

Quote from: tysb3 on December 16, 2009, 07:46:03 PM
Hi,
Somebody read this one? : http://www.ferromagnetic-energy.com/core_of_the_physical_effect/
and this: http://www.ferromagnetic-energy.com/core_of_the_physical_effect/equipment/

If Im right, Melnichenko use the square pulse drive signal.
What about hybrid theory?: Bedini spike pulse theory + Melnichenko magnetic field theory + JT

Im waiting my UPS delivery with electronic tools, to join good company

It's interesting, I think that square pulses do more work, they're the equivalent of binary, nearly.

Quote from: jeanna on December 16, 2009, 06:54:39 PM
[[edit:that was already suggested by amigo who gave us a link to the info]]

Could you direct me to this link, I find little in the search results ( perhaps it was indirectly addressed )?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tysb3 on December 16, 2009, 09:40:15 PM

@jadaro2600

"I think that square pulses do more work,"

but they wasting much more energy

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 16, 2009, 09:42:33 PM

This link explaining basic ideas of permeability for beginners. Video slideshow.

http://www.steorn.com/skdb/e-learning/flash-promo/3.1/index.html

I got it from a post by lumen.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on December 16, 2009, 09:45:56 PM

Quote from: tysb3 on December 16, 2009, 09:40:15 PM
@jadaro2600

"I think that square pulses do more work,"

but they wasting much more energy

Doing work and providing results are two different things, of course.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 16, 2009, 09:56:31 PM

wow gadget nice result

soon enough i will buy some of them ... im thinking a bunch

i took some pictures of my gold mine ...

TRIPPLE CROWN ME! : )

AND THE GOLD IS ONLY THE CAKE THE ICENING IS THE GOODS INSIDE..

and i will not talk of what thease units are right now .. lol

here is a tripple crown unit ....

take a peek inside... i have taken apart bout 45 of them so far .. i dont have as many as i thought .. might have 65 or 70 ... but i dont care ... all i want are my materials ..

you do the math ..

literly sitting on a GOLD MINE ... for 4 months ... and never knew it ... man do i feel stupid .. and i bet there were bets in the background on how long it would take me to discover it !! lmfao

i would expect there to be some eyes in the know round this place ... lol

im over 2 lbs of gold... ; )

i bet there a few of you eyeing up the local cable systems ... lol

i will WARN YOU those lines carry min 20 amp 30 - 60 v... so ... dont be stealing them .. thease were given to me from the company... for scrap ...

funny do an up grade and pay for the up grade from the old junk .... boy some one was thinking ...

lol till i came along .. and said THANK YOU VERRY MUCH .. ILL TAKE WHAT IS MINE!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 16, 2009, 10:25:39 PM

i have been working at it and here is a picture ...

2 1/4 lbs .. from garbage ... you know how many of thease were throwen out ... with out knowing ...

heres an idea ... a few hundred thousand .... 14 grams in each one ... thats 450$ min .. each

hummmmmm thats gotta suck!

ist!

so gadget how many caps can i buy with 1 lb of gold ?
then you can send 2 ounces worth to mk1 !

merry christmas ..

every 4 connectors is 1 ounce!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 16, 2009, 10:43:45 PM

Inportant . IF anyof you try to wind the big uncoated cores with regular wire and go over 500 turns your going to be very dissapointed . I am unwinding all 600 turns (ARHHHH) and YOU MUST PAINT THOSE TOROIDS WITH A NON CONDUCTIVE PAINT FIRST > they are bare when charchole color and if you notice and put you rohm meter on 200 k its 0 from end to end so the wire will arc to it no matter if there is not a scratch or not . SOOO. I am going to buy some acrylic paint tomorrow and pain the last ones i have left and then paint them once more before i try that again . After you wind them i them suggest to paint them in shellack and let dry then coat them in rubber :) That way you wont have a problem and you can fit a lot more winding with regular wire than kkynar or bell wire on them and get VERY HIGH VOLTS . O thats My rant . ' Ill be unwinding .. It was the brightest i have ever seen and she started acring every where to the core . NEED TO INSULATE IT . Or maybe wrap it in black tape might work too before you wind .
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 16, 2009, 10:59:53 PM

Quote from: tysb3 on December 16, 2009, 09:40:15 PM
@jadaro2600

"I think that square pulses do more work,"

but they wasting much more energy

@tysb3:

Welcome to our group. I look forward to having you here working with us.

@ Gadget:

I coated my windings with melted hot glue gun glue...just a thin film but I did that mainly to keep it from unwinding. I was getting pissed enough trying to keep it all together and that worked well for me.

I like your idea of the core coating. I used the "newbie" mag wire (thanks Jeanna) as it has a lot more insulation than regular mag wire to prevent shorts like you describe. I would be beside myself if I had to unwind 600 turns!!!!! Your advice is good and I will follow it for my next wind.

Your cfl was way brighter than mine also. Nice work man.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 16, 2009, 11:16:42 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on December 16, 2009, 10:25:39 PM
i have been working at it and here is a picture ...

2 1/4 lbs .. from garbage ... you know how many of thease were throwen out ... with out knowing ...

heres an idea ... a few hundred thousand .... 14 grams in each one ... thats 450$ min .. each

hummmmmm thats gotta suck!

ist!

so gadget how many caps can i buy with 1 lb of gold ?
then you can send 2 ounces worth to mk1 !

merry christmas ..

every 4 connectors is 1 ounce!

Quite a few ! :)Merry Christmas Guy . Hey See if you can melt one or two if you can get a hold of a blow tourch . My brother melted some of his in a blob and took it to teh pawnshop and got a lot of money . When you shoed you gold i had a BIG bag of Very old GOld Processors like 2000 dollars worth > they did have pure gold . Like a dummy i left the bag outside in a container with all my scrap boards and looked last night , Someone stole them in the last few months . OH man i was heart broken.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 16, 2009, 11:21:06 PM

i have done almost every test to try and prove to myself it is FAKE GOLD ...

needless to say all tests faild it is pure real gold !

and i will have min 3lbs ! cleaned and ready to be sold soon ...

a friend chercked the price for me it 1128 us / ounce used 1.000 gold ... yep ... thats quite a few thousand dollars ... considering 3lbs is 48 ounces ..... hummmmm

ist ... with sore fingers ...

i guess i woke up the other day and walked into 50 000 cdn i never knew i had ..... not 5000 lmfao

1 wild place we all live in ... i guess good things to those that choose to look ...... the way it has always been!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tysb3 on December 16, 2009, 11:25:46 PM

@Pirate88179

thanks, I'll do my best

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 16, 2009, 11:29:16 PM

gadget get my materials in the mail..... there is 4 of them for you too ....

merry christmas...

thats 1 ounce ... not 4 ounces .... lol

i dont want crap for it ... maybe my materials being shipped ...

: )

include return address .. and soon as i receive my materials ill ship em to ya!

william

and if you find it to some how be fake ... ill still pay ya for the shipping ... : )

i just cant imagine what else it would be

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 17, 2009, 12:26:42 AM

Thank yo ist , BUT first you need to have a jeweler or pawnshop do an acid test on them he will tell your for sure and tell what k it is . Not doubting you because those processors were very old and the scrap man here has a gun he called it is a laser spectrometer and it burns it and then prints out a report what it is made of . Mine were 22k / I don' get paid until the the 3rd of jan .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 17, 2009, 12:49:51 AM

well im gonna go sell 500 bucks worth tommorow .. ill send you the money to ship the things

yes those are tripple crowns ... not your normal equipment .. the COAX WAS SOLID COPPER not alum coper coated as is today this was b4 that was invented ... they invented that so they could do away with all the gold and solid copper ... they pulled out 30 km of solid ... they gave it away ... the guy loaded a half tonne truck and a 5x10 trailler ... got 3000 fot it ... so they said he could have as much as he wanted as they pay 2000 bucks a bin to get rid of it so really he saved them 2000 and he gained 3000 imagine ... this is how it should work bro ... lol

i know it has to be 22k min ... but i bet 24

remember this was 2500 for 1 amp and 1 linex .. new ... ya 25 years AGO... ... so whats that now ... hummmmmm lol trust me they didnt become the best co .. cuz they sold junk ... and it would not be as shiny as it is showen from 25 years of ageing if it was crap ...

simle ... i am ... ; )

w815!

and you know what ..... 2/3 of canada is still useing that old crap ... lol old as the colour tv its self and still working fine... lol well darn near ..... lol

so now i guess you know why i was so saddened to destory it .... : ( it would have been neat ... cus 4 of those ... and the right freqs ... and ill grow gold ... lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 17, 2009, 12:53:36 AM

@all

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGJKtYbGLw4

This is lidmotor doing , Doing a Kooler Jeanna Tesla homage...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on December 17, 2009, 01:48:16 AM

xee2 and all
i built one of these awhile back.. and i thought whatever and xee2 told me it was worth testing..
so here it is working

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pM3KhV8daw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pM3KhV8daw)

101-105 ma's to 30ma's

nice little gain...

no sparks by the way

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 17, 2009, 02:09:45 AM

yep you are nuts ....

and i thought i was nuts ...

welcome aboard! SIR KOOLER

: )

LOVE THE VIDEO ....

LIKED lids too

i got 1 more day then im back to work ...

at building ...

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on December 17, 2009, 02:20:27 AM

kool,
i'm new to the video making stuff
glad you like it
i should be getting my sidac's soon ..so i might build something more simple??
the toroid design thingy works even better with those 1'' ones from goldmine
you can get the ma's down to near nothing
hope it helps

i don't know how utube is about life theating devices.. i been wanting to show you guys this thing running a stungun transformer.. its what i starting building with...
a little more harmful than a tesla coil... (from me touching it like a idiot)
hahaha
yea, my mom told me a couple times i was crazy,
and my sister
and my dad
well u get what i mean....

out-
robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 17, 2009, 07:19:13 AM

Hi all . Well My super duper 600 turn Brightest ever cfl gizmo broke down in less than 30 Minuit's and i had Peel the latex and unwind all of them .. Before it stopped working it screeched and screamed . i turned the lights off and the entire coil was a bluish glow where it was meeting the naked Jeanna ring . It finally burned its way in several places and shorted the coiled to toroid and stopped working . DO NOT USE BLACK TAPE !! . I did and have been winding for over two hours now and am not even 1/4 the way yet . you cant slide the coils of wire and so its a B . I have one more core and i am going to go get some latex paint and paint it ,probably plastic coat several times let it bake dry in from of the gas heater and then wind a new coiled with magnet wire . My wire was very expensive and has a thick enamel on it so its not cheap wire . Its the naked unpainted core that caused it to break down . After i wind it and before i fire it up i am going to spray it all again several times to let the wire get triple coated and then it cover it with latex rubber . That coiled should not break down after that . 600 turns produced over 2000 volts and i couldn't measure it as it over flowed My best 2000 volt meter .
Gadget .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 17, 2009, 07:31:42 AM

IF we get these toroids i would like to try and get them epoxy or painted coated first this will save a lot of time preparing these things . newbe wire you cant get that many windings on one and as i see it the more one layer of wire it the one that will catch the most inductance anything on top of the first layer is only getting half and a thirds layer gets a 1/4 so the best volts are obtained with one layer in my research . I noticed this on a hazen coil first . an mk2 coil should be wound as one layer and when you wind backwards make sure your wire goes in between the up winding ther for all the wire touches the toroid . My next sample order will be getting the same number core except grey coated first .

Well I'm Finished winding 600 turns . I could not get 30 turns of it on because the black tapr made me have gaps so i backwards wrapped the extra 30 turns inbetween some of the gaps about one inch backwards . .I couldnt wait so i fored it up and YEA full bright again . I unhooked it and painted the entire thing with Clear Nail polish and letting it dry while i go to town and buy some clear coat . .. That was an ordeal !!!! . If you want to wind HV with magnet wire on Naked charcoal toroids then paint them first !!You will save yourself a lot of grief later on .You think you got it and 30 mins of full power later it dyes and there you go, you have to redo it . the problem is the core is not made for Hv unless you paint it .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 17, 2009, 08:20:14 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on December 17, 2009, 07:31:42 AM
IF we get these toroids i would liek to try and get themepoxy or painted coated forst this will save a lot of time preparingthese things . newbe wire you cant get that many windings on one and as i see it the more one layer of wire it the one that will catch the most inductance anythingontop of the first layer is only getting half and a thirs layer gets a 1/4 so the best volts are obtained with one layer in my research . Inoticed this on a hazen coil first . an mk2 coil should be wound as one layer and when you wind backwards make sure your wire goes inbetween the up winding therfor all the wire touches the toroid .

yea i like those grey W cores .....

i will add.... gadget that there is far more about the mk1 wind design ..

i most importantally love RA'S wind ... simple .. the RA COIL ....

cadisous is and always was ... RA'S.. : ) ther is a sclar event as the wires cross...

yep the SNAKE TAMER ... plus RA used HIS GOLD ...

just look at your FLAWED MEDICAL SYMBLE .. DEATH ONLY ... 1 snake in the staff... ha ha ha ..

isis and RA'S gift ... thats right EL ETERNAL LIFE ...

2000v in my opinion is TOO MUCH for stage 1 AS I TOLD J THE SAME THING ...

shit will blow up ... try lids way ... witch is TESLAS WAY ...

lol

RA!

its BASIC TESLA CONVERSION ... yep same old ... charge a cap discharge a cap ...

then truely SOLVE IT AS I HAVE DONE SO ... YOU GET G .... LMFAO...

whats g ... well i covered it years ago now ..

ps gadget the w core is only rated to 2000v ... hummmm why did i say W CORE ? i know CUZ I LIED THE THE WHOLE DAMM WORLD ... LMAO

price apears to be a trade off for quality ...

then if your gonna not be cheep ... why bang it with .. ma's .... lol maybe why i used 14 ga ...

anyhow ... still MILES TO GO ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on December 17, 2009, 08:37:07 AM

@ IST,

Quote from: innovation_station on December 16, 2009, 10:55:54 AM
i will add some picture OF THE NEW TOYS I HAVE AQUIRED ...

there many ... and they aint your normal parts ..

i ask gadget if he knows what this is ...

it is like a large neon/ reed sw / vaccume tube
i nave no idea what they are ... i have 10 or 15 of em

i apoligize ... for my unhappy times ...

Hello w, I don't know if you ever got the answer about the above question.
They are glass encapsulated temperature circuit breakers, (bi-metal switch) I have seen them inside Arlec Battery chargers also.
Heres one here, and BTW ist,, you aint the first or the last one to be unhappy, been there, done that too, you are not alone.

Lookit all that gold, wow, wow, wow, ist is drippin with gold, lol.

@jeanna,
I didnt know PLatinum was heaver than gold, now I learnt something new tonight.
thankyou

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 17, 2009, 08:40:01 AM

Im happy with this one lighting cfl near full bright and one layer is an accomplishment and afirst for me . But Mark himself said basicaly the same thing that you must wind back and have the wire contact the toroid inbetween the other winding . The reason is the more wire on the surface of the toroid the more effeciant it will be plus you get ac from his winding . i get polarized volts off mine . . Hey great find man . Yes i woul dlove to have one of those amps if it really is that frequency then i can use it and put it to use for real . I wish you have not tore the gold out of them they probable are useless now :(.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 17, 2009, 08:46:44 AM

thank you jim ... i just knew that you sir would know about those cridders ...

im so sick of damm gold ... lol

i got a chunk for you to bro ... ill only use it to COMPLEATE MY WORK..

i gave 3 ounces away already .. makes an easy christmas gift .. i have a bro and a sis ..

i still have like 20 more units to take apart today ... and that was just 11 amps .. and 70 or so boster amps.. for 3 plus pounds ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 17, 2009, 08:53:38 AM

i have A HOLE SKID OF AMPS STILL ...

thank you verry much !

and there 3 years old ... and THEY USED PLATUM IN THE NEW ONES

this is the best rf gear out there ... they took down the old ... and put up the new ...

same ferq... just more bandwith ... the ONLY REASON FOR THE UPGRADE .. OTHER THAN TO ROBB THE GOLD FROM THE PEOPLE ... WAS TO SELL THEM TV HI DEF .. INTERNET AND TELEPHONE..

the old gear can not handle the extra load of the fone calls ... the nodes ... they installed are .. like 680 strand fiber ...

it takes a guy a full day to splice 1 CONNECTION ....

i know there whole system side ways ... lmfao ... and it is junk ...

W

besides .... the amps are just a fancy jt .... lol lol

yea i got hundreds of toroides wound tuned and all the caps to piss fire ...

all tuned ... like i said this WORLD WISHED I NEVER TOOK THEM APART ... TOOO LATE ...

gadget can you fire 40 watts ... plus at 1 ghz ... with less than .0001 harmonic distortion ... sure i can ....

lol

guess what i know a teckkie or 3 that have the 10 000 dollar meters to tune the rf ... lol hummmmm

as they TUNE THE SHIT THEY INSTALL ... so yea it is a VERRY SPECIAL TRADE ... SO IS MY ENGERY ...

this pic is 14.7 grams of platnum from the pins in the gold connectors i have showen last time i checked the price of it was 3 years ago 1800 cdn / ounce .. thats over 1/2 ounce ... AND FILLS A LESSER SPACE THAN 1/2 OUNCE OF GOLD ... cant be anything other than that ... as per jeanna's words ..

what ya think ... kind of a golden white dust as i drilled them out ... i drilled half of the pins away b4 i realized what they were ... btw thanks J love ya!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 17, 2009, 09:10:44 AM

O man you still got some more ! Awsome . I would love to get one . Yea i can that frequency just fine THank YOU ! I pray your gold find will put money in your pocket . i know you are or were down and you probably are worried about your kids like us dads do for Christmas N Stuff so Good luck buddy and Merry Christmas . Here is a tiny pic of the Gold I have over 200 rare processors that i had checked and someone stole them . I am depress now that you show me gold , I checked lats night in the cold and it was GONE GONE GONE . well i hope the Thieves are happy .
God Bless them and hope they are nice and warm and used the money for food and not drugs . If so then i wish them a pleasant stay in Hell !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on December 17, 2009, 09:17:06 AM

@Gadget,

Quote from: gadgetmall on December 16, 2009, 10:43:45 PM
Inportant . IF anyof you try to wind the big uncoated cores with regular wire and go over 500 turns your going to be very dissapointed . I am unwinding all 600 turns (ARHHHH) and YOU MUST PAINT THOSE TOROIDS WITH A NON CONDUCTIVE PAINT FIRST > they are bare when charchole color and if you notice and put you rohm meter on 200 k its 0 from end to end so the wire will arc to it no matter if there is not a scratch or not . SOOO. I am going to buy some acrylic paint tomorrow and pain the last ones i have left and then paint them once more before i try that again . After you wind them i them suggest to paint them in shellack and let dry then coat them in rubber :) That way you wont have a problem and you can fit a lot more winding with regular wire than kkynar or bell wire on them and get VERY HIGH VOLTS . O thats My rant . ' Ill be unwinding .. It was the brightest i have ever seen and she started acring every where to the core . NEED TO INSULATE IT . Or maybe wrap it in black tape might work too before you wind .
Gadget

I'm glad you found out about the HV problem with the grey toroid, I am assuming the one I have here, is from the same batch as yours?

Anyway, you are right about the paint insulation over the core, ordinary iron transformers are required by law to be able to exceed a certain electrical rating so no accidents happen. When I unwound a toroid last year, it had thin, clear insulation like scotch tape wound around the toroid, I think I kept some of that stuff.
What I also noticed, between each layer of winds/coils, was a layer of this clear tape, so this is something we need to keep in mind with these hi-powered toroids.

I loved your screeming light, its bea-ute-full.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 17, 2009, 09:28:35 AM

im only guessing there 40 watt amps ... most likely far more than that ...

and i garentee you ... you cant build 1 of thease units ... i have like 150 channels .. no problem ...

anyhow .. i dont care ... you can have an amp .. like i said ... YOUR PAYING TO SHIP THE DAMM THING ...

THERE HEAVY LIKE 25 TO 30 LBS EACH UNIT ...

i have 15 more .. but 3 are listed on ebay ...

and i just gave u 1 so i guess i have 11 more like i said you aint seen even the good things THAT DRIVE THEASE AMPS from the power sent through with the tv channels ... you realize this is how they are powered .. and the out put ac and dc .. in the same output ...

kinda like bedini or sm ... lol

; )

with a bunch of amps i have 12 power supplyes ... from the old amps ... ill add a PIC SOME TIME ...

the new power units ... use A JT UNIT TO RUN THE AMP ... LIKE A CAMREA UNIT ON CRACK! lol

LOOK AT IT I SEE NPN AND PNP .. banging the crap out a cam transformer to 2 jt rings then out to the big caps through 2 huge diodes ... hummmmmm pnp and npn ...
this is a newer amp ... the older ones ... are better ..... : )

here is an old one ..... yikes ... lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 17, 2009, 09:51:26 AM

ISt :)))) . hey heres our liitle ou project . I thought i would show you after three and a half weeks what this is doing ..here we go . first pic my makeshift light bulb recharger and circuit. I screw it in every few days for 30 mins to replinitish the run battery .for three weeks the battery was 1.301 and now look at the battery VOLTS !!!!way over what i started with and LOOK at the Bcap VOLTS .!!!!!this was .5 when i started almost a month ago . yea boys n girls . i would say without a doubt in my mind a self runner for sure . I cannot wait to get the ou controller in this baby !!!!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 17, 2009, 10:07:20 AM

great work gadget!

and i do not cut your work down nor anyones!

i know better ...

well i offered what i can afford to give you ... 1 ounce and an amp ... for your work... for doing WHAT I COULD NOT CUS DAMM MONEY!

NOW YOU ALL CAN WATCH IN AWE WITH WHAT I DO WITH THIS MONEY ...

ist! im in no rush .... i know how my toys work ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 17, 2009, 10:10:48 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on December 17, 2009, 09:51:26 AM
I screw it in every few days for 30 mins to replinitish the run battery

If the capacitor voltage is increasing you are definitely adding energy to it. But I do not understand how you are charge the battery? Does it charge from the capacitor?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 17, 2009, 10:25:32 AM

Quote from: xee2 on December 17, 2009, 10:10:48 AM
If the capacitor voltage is increasing you are definitely adding energy to it. But I do not understand how you are charge the battery? Does it charge from the capacitor?

Correct . after the Bcap reaches over the unity of the battery all it takes is a one wire jump thru a 1.2 volt light bulb to recharge the battery . The one wire connection it from the pos terminal of the bcap to the pos terminal of the aa battery . I use a makeshif resistive 1.2 volt bulb to absorb the high current available from teh bcap and it works Brialliantly . the light bulb can bee seen glowing just a tiny bit when i screw it in in the dark . 30 mins and all the microamps that it took to take the bcap up is restored in 30 minuits . The Circuit board Alex is having made will control all this automatically . I will be releasing more information after us two replicate and run the new boards on this design . It is going to work . WOW .!! A first and a big step for everyone in the world is comming soon !! HO HO HO merry Christmas ..Cannot promis that i will release the last bit of information and a formal entry this year but soon after the boards are programmedand tested !! all the information to build it is in the SSJT thread . We give our work here for this self runner to help the world a step at a time all for free . We will hide nothing and plans are to scale it up . Just a few people who are intrested can help the planet little by little . i might add okans to power much bigger loads ,inverters , you name it . Right now it runs thermelectric modules perfectly for long periods of heat and cold with just this little bcap .The lights you see are 1 watt worth and are continuiously lite day and night and increase in brightness as the bcap goes over unity or the AA volts . a perpetually light source at the least !! I can also do this with just bcaps alone and no batterys at all but to keep the cost down for the OU prize this is the unit i will provide ,God Willing . And every will benifit . On My houor the group who is helping will reap the benifits while the lazy neysayers will simply not .

Gadget !!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 17, 2009, 10:38:39 AM

i think this one is platnum ...

lol

if it is i have 50 amps like this one ...

it is non magnetic and almost the same colour as the pins i drilled ... it aint gold ... and it is in the same place as where the gold was...

makes me wonder ... i kinda think it is ... imagine a lb of that metal ... hummmmm

ist!

looks like the REST IS SLIVER....

like 30 000 / pound ... this is out dated ... info it may have gone up or down since then .. plus if ya didnt know ... your catalatic convertor in your exaust system ... are designed to COLLECT PLATNUM.... probally why they used to PUT LEAD IN THE FUEL... what ya think ?

LEAD TO GOLD ? HUMMMMMMMM

another stupid simple JOKE! money .. hahahaha
i perfer THE TRUTH!

smile ... : ) : ) : )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 17, 2009, 12:55:07 PM

@ kooler

Thanks for the video of the dual toroids. I would like to replicate this, but I am not sure if I understand how they are connected. Is this how you have them hooked up?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 17, 2009, 01:10:15 PM

simple force feed method...

mod a spin brush ... for a vibrateing contact ... pass pos through it ....

ya!

now be carefull ...

they run high speed on an aa ..

just another old toy ...

ist! what if i used gold and a neo zap .... hummmmm

i trip over the millions of ways i have to the same answer ....

; )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 17, 2009, 02:06:31 PM

Quote from: xee2 on December 17, 2009, 12:55:07 PM
@ kooler

Thanks for the video of the dual toroid. I would like to replicate this, but I am not sure if I understand how they are connected. Is this how you have them hooked up?

Kooler , nice work , i have done several multi core jt , i will give you a trick

You should try to separate the secondaries and bridge both , you should get about the same voltage , but you will be able to load the toroid separately , instead of together , this should give you more power.

Make a test with a cap , check the voltage drop to the cap voltage on both core , then separate them see now one core loaded voltage the other is still unloaded .

Anyway keep the good work.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 17, 2009, 02:43:24 PM

Gadget:

I have room for about 600 winds on my "W" toroid of 28 ga. Newbie wire. Not much more than that though and that is with very close and careful winds with no overlaps and no gaps. It took me 3 evenings of about 3.5 hours per evening just to wind my 330 turns. I don't know if I have the patience to wind that many, plus, since I have double stacked toroids, it takes a lot more wire per turn.

I agree with your coating the toroids suggestion. Hey, what about that stuff that you can dip tool handles into to make plastic handle covers? Do you know the stuff I mean? It is mostly made in red but you dip tools into it to coat them...would that be too thick after dipping and block the inductance? The only reason I thought of it is that it would be simple to get a nice, smooth uniform coating by dipping. It might be too thick though. What do you think?

Bill ***EDIT***

Here is the link: http://www.plastidip.com/home_solutions/Plasti_Dip (http://www.plastidip.com/home_solutions/Plasti_Dip)

I see it is available in many colors now.

***EDIT***

I see they have it in spray form too and it is available at Lowe's, Ace Hardware and
Harbor Freight among other places.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on December 17, 2009, 03:27:03 PM

Gagdetmall very cool about that circuit of the Bcap I am looking forward to replicate one for a water heater. ;).
Nice nice keep it going and wish you Happy Christmas and a happy New Prosperous Year to you and all the guys in this forum.
Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 17, 2009, 04:48:04 PM

Hi guys,
The coated toroids are all weaker and are coated to insulate from heat.

I did not have any problem because of the newby wire.
I am convinced it is the best way to get around this.
Mine got up to around 2,000 volts with 330 turns and there was not a varnish problem.
I used 28 awg from gobrushless.
He is a very nice man and quickly sends the wire out and I think we can support him.

MMI has $ 27,000 dollar minimum and I think they are not about to paint the OW for us, but they might offer you one of the less good ones, thinking you care so much about the paint.
So, please do not confuse this.
It would be a real shame to get an order of the wrong thing.

I choked my J type yesterday, and I am taking it apart to re-do it.
I think I finally found a dead spot. 8)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 17, 2009, 05:06:36 PM

Jeanna:

Wow, 2,000 volts...that is cool!

I have had no problems..yet..either but, do you see a problem at this time with painting them or using the dipping coating I posted about above just to prevent any later possible arcing? Do you think this will cut down on performance in any way?
I agree the newbie wire from gobrushless has a good thick insulation coating, thanks for that link. My wire came very fast...good folks to deal with.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 17, 2009, 05:18:23 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 17, 2009, 05:06:36 PM
do you see a problem at this time with painting them or using the dipping coating I posted about above just to prevent any later possible arcing? Do you think this will cut down on performance in any way?
I agree the newbie wire from gobrushless has a good thick insulation coating, thanks for that link. My wire came very fast...good folks to deal with.

I have no way of knowing if it will change it, but I think it will.
The only way to know is to make 2-- 1 with, and 1 without.
It is not necessary to put 300 turns on the secondary.
50 would tell the tale if there is a difference.
but
Why take the chance?
If we can get around the problem by using the newbie wire, lets do that, and fool around with the coating later, after we have a good source for the toroid, and we all have enough to experiment with etc.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on December 17, 2009, 06:45:14 PM

@xee2, yea thats how i done it... its not tuned yet.. one toroid has 30awg and the other has 26awg
and the middle has 4 turns base 4 turns collector...
i just threw it together to show you guys... the ma's draw
the secondary's wired together different.. just switch one of the wires on the right toroid

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 17, 2009, 07:44:04 PM

well we got it tested and they called back ...

on site they say it is verry high carrot

by the eye ... they left a msg ... and said it was not gold ... lol

may be they MUST REPORT ANY GOLD OF THIS QUALITY ...

hummmm they never said what it was ..

intresting ..

j the dead spots? humm is there 3 of em ... is this where your coils go?

ist!

what else could this yellow stuff be .. ? it passed the acid test no prolbem

i saw my kids today yay!

we were at moms store ... and looked at an archolagy magizen all bout egypt....

and my sun sky says great x15 grand dad built them ... hummmmm

saw the mumified dog .. and CALLED HER BY NAME.... nuts eh?

w

btw i like the blank cores ... cus 2 bucks is cheep ....i have a bunch of coloured cores now ... bairly looked at them yet .. but i will ..... simple to wind a jt on top of them... like i said there tuned and capped already ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 17, 2009, 07:47:52 PM

@ kooler

Quote from: kooler on December 17, 2009, 06:45:14 PM
one toroid has 30awg and the other has 26awg

Thanks for the feedback. The wire diameter does not affect performance, so there is no need to change it.

I just realized my ignition coil has a resistor in it. Do you think I would get longer sparks if I got a coil without a resistor in it?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on December 17, 2009, 08:01:38 PM

if it is a old can type you can bend the lip around the top and pop the top and remove it
don't spill the oil....
my ign coils are off a 99 ford 150 4.6 liter

the resistor has to be hurting it

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on December 17, 2009, 08:52:29 PM

@ xee2

Quote from: xee2 on December 17, 2009, 07:47:52 PM
I just realized my ignition coil has a resistor in it. Do you think I would get longer sparks if I got a coil without a resistor in it?

The resistor on the ignition coil is to drop the voltage to the primary side of the coil "after" the engine starts.
The ignition switch, by passes the resistor while the engine is cranking so the ignition coil gets full voltage to work with.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 17, 2009, 08:55:13 PM

Corrected kooler dual toroid JT circuit. I hope it is correct.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 17, 2009, 08:55:20 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 17, 2009, 02:43:24 PM
Gadget:

I have room for about 600 winds on my "W" toroid of 28 ga. Newbie wire. Not much more than that though and that is with very close and careful winds with no overlaps and no gaps. It took me 3 evenings of about 3.5 hours per evening just to wind my 330 turns. I don't know if I have the patience to wind that many, plus, since I have double stacked toroids, it takes a lot more wire per turn.

I agree with your coating the toroids suggestion. Hey, what about that stuff that you can dip tool handles into to make plastic handle covers? Do you know the stuff I mean? It is mostly made in red but you dip tools into it to coat them...would that be too thick after dipping and block the inductance? The only reason I thought of it is that it would be simple to get a nice, smooth uniform coating by dipping. It might be too thick though. What do you think?

Bill ***EDIT***

Here is the link: http://www.plastidip.com/home_solutions/Plasti_Dip (http://www.plastidip.com/home_solutions/Plasti_Dip)

I see it is available in many colors now.

***EDIT***

I see they have it in spray form too and it is available at Lowe's, Ace Hardware and
Harbor Freight among other places.

Hi pirate . I didnt relize it came so thin ok . BUT I sugess you not dip iot first . you will not be able to slid the wire and it will take forever to wind it . I would mine with blacktape on the toroid . Here is the best way . Find some Clear coat Spray can coat the toroid ,let it dry and spray it again ,dry . Then you will haev aslick surface to slied the wires close todether without any problem . After you wind it then spray it several more times letting the clear coat soak in the windings and dry it near a heater and do it a feew times and them after it frys completly cover it with black tape and that baby is sealed . I sis it todsy and finished mine . It is surebright and has been running all day long on full power on a 45 watt bright white Cfl . I can obnly imagin what a 20 watter will be . This one is almost as bright as house current . I am very happy with it . And guess what it still screaches and screams and sings loud and my saughter can hera it in another room away . I can hear it if i put my ear to the toroid . Its cool ! and dosnt draw that much varies from 28 to 40 ma , It can run a long time on a c battery . I want totry a darlingtom on the next one and see what haoppent doubling the primary current and voltage :))

@Jeanna paint does not affect oerating any . when i ordered i order two more grey coated ones 4 inch w cors and the are super strong . The Coating is for High voltage protection . On the one that was eating up magnet wire i just wrapped it with blacktape . Well that was a mistake as it is hard to wind as the wire wont slip over so it takes longer BUT after 4 hours and 600 turns and then painted with clear coat My Once Naked Toroid with the same exact wire i unwound it as bright as ever . It is so bright you cannot look at it directly like one in the 100 volt socket , but this is a 100 watt bulb also so its really bright and needs a shade on it . . So paint your bare toroid and use regular wire is ok and no performance degreidation and no blue Glowing Torroid either . . I alleast have 3000 4000 thousand volts to fire a 45 watt bulb to near full bright using 600 turns #26 green magnet wire .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 17, 2009, 09:05:42 PM

@ electricme

Quote from: electricme on December 17, 2009, 08:52:29 PM
@ xee2
The resistor on the ignition coil is to drop the voltage to the primary side of the coil "after" the engine starts.
The ignition switch, by passes the resistor while the engine is cranking so the ignition coil gets full voltage to work with.

jim

I thought it was to reduce radio interference? The resistor is always connected inside of the coil, there is no way to bypass it. I have always wondered about why they would put a resistor in the coil. I just do not know enough about cars to know for sure. Thanks for your feedback.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 17, 2009, 09:07:07 PM

@all

Merry christmass and happy new year!

I found the key to close the loop on the joule thief circuit.
You know that the coil has a part that is called feedback.
I added to it a diode and the circuit was coded into the circuit simulator.

It shows that is self running.
The screen capture is included.
If anybody has a circuit simulator and want the code to test if this is true I will post it here for all to use it.

You know, maybe I die and the circuit is thrown away because is not understood.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 17, 2009, 09:13:28 PM

@ Jesus:

That is great! I hope we can build it to prove it works.
Merry Christmas and Happy new Year to you too.

@ Gadget:

I happen to have a Darlington i was saving for just such an occasion. Should I try that on my next large toroid wind?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on December 17, 2009, 09:16:31 PM

xee2 the resistor type coils were used on up to 1974 on chevy and fords... and dodge used them up to 1991 model the resistor in the old ign coil was to block the very large spike that came from the voltage regulator that was mounted outside of the alternator
if you tore apart one of those old regulators you would see why...
two normally open contacts and one normally close ...
two coils in the volt reg 14-12 awgs coils in it
one coil is 30 awg about 800 feet of it

i forgot to mention
the resistor spark plugs and plug wires were redesigned for the radio problems

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on December 17, 2009, 09:22:54 PM

jesus on that website that java program..
a tank circuit self runs also.. with gain

play around with one inductor a one cap
it self runs

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: IotaYodi on December 17, 2009, 09:26:14 PM

Quotewhat else could this yellow stuff be .. ? it passed the acid test no problem

If you did this test yourself with the acid and testing stone and the color didn't change then its gold. If it turns a yellow-orange color it may be gold but a lower quality karat. If the area changes any other color - it is not Gold.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 17, 2009, 09:26:43 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on December 17, 2009, 07:44:04 PM
well we got it tested and they called back ...

on site they say it is verry high carrot

by the eye ... they left a msg ... and said it was not gold ... lol

j the dead spots? humm is there 3 of em ... is this where your coils go?

ist!

w

btw i like the blank cores ... cus 2 bucks is cheep ....i have a bunch of coloured cores now ... bairly looked at them yet .. but i will ..... simple to wind a jt on top of them... like i said there tuned and capped already ...

Did you say when you were in the jewelery shop they tested it and it was gold for sure?

Then...

They left a message?
Did they "keep" it for more tests?

It is the specific gravity that is the real test.
This is why I am suggesting you do it yourself.
Did you do my stack of pennies test?

What does a bunch the size of a stack of pennies weigh?
And how much does a stack of pennies the height of the bunch weigh?
====

I am glad you saw your kids today.
The rest doesn't matter much. It just makes procuring things easier.
Kids matter.
=====
@All,

Dead spots.
I am testing the J core.
It looked really great but it is acting like a choke even though the inductance of the individual turns is as it was before.
But they do not behave like the inductance that is measured.
That is why I think it is dead spots.

This morning the 330 turns was at 4 volts.
I removed about 70-100 turns and added a couple of turns to both sides of the primary it is now up to 53v

I will continue to remove more secondary turns and see if I can move things around a little.

Thing is I had 173 volts with only 26T with my initial test before I "really" began winding.
Strange thing.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 17, 2009, 09:27:22 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 17, 2009, 09:13:28 PM
@ Jesus:

That is great! I hope we can build it to prove it works.
Merry Christmas and Happy new Year to you too.

@ Gadget:

I happen to have a Darlington i was saving for just such an occasion. Should I try that on my next large toroid wind?

Bill

Heck yea ! also a few post back i notice jeanna thought the grey was heat protection .wee it might be so it wont melt the wire but the coating is actually required in ul listed powersupplies to prevent shorting and fire . I got two grey one with my 4 uncoated and they are 4 inchw and they are very strong . also My toroid i fied with black take is mnore powerful than ever so no degredation at all with paint ,clear cot what ever but i suggest you use paint or clearcoat on the naked toroid and not your plastic dip . It will be very hard to wind as the woire will not slip like on paint and gaps will be there and its harder to wind if you cant slide the winding togeter :) took me a long time to wind on blacktape . Its Strogn now and lights up a 45 watt bulb so bright you cannot start at it . Need a difuser on it now . Yes put a darlington it and checkit out . Thans next on my list . also My current draw is way down now been running full blast all day long with a c battery . still bright !!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 17, 2009, 09:28:22 PM

Quote from: kooler on December 17, 2009, 09:16:31 PM
xee2 the resistor type coils were used on up to 1974 on chevy and fords... and dodge used them up to 1991 model the resistor in the old ign coil was to block the very large spike that came from the voltage regulator that was mounted outside of the alternator
if you tore apart one of those old regulators you would see why...
two normally open contacts and one normally close ...
two coils in the volt reg 14-12 awgs coils in it
one coil is 30 awg about 800 feet of it

i forgot to mention
the resistor spark plugs and plug wires were redesigned for the radio problems

Yes and also if you used very heavy solid copper insulated wire instead of resistance spark plug wire, you get way better performance and better gas mileage....but, you mess up people's TV's and radios when you drive in their neighborhood and the FCC does not like that. Big fine for doing that.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 17, 2009, 09:36:53 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on December 17, 2009, 08:55:20 PM

@Jeanna paint does not affect operating any . when i ordered i order two more grey coated ones 4 inch w cores and they are super strong . The Coating is for High voltage protection .

I am glad you clarified this.
I was reporting from what the salesman told me that the coating was to keep it from getting hot (at high voltage maybe)
In any case this sales person told me the paint was not put on the W just the powdered kind.
I think you have a Z which is epoxy.

Anyway, this is great.
Did you just say you ordered a minimum order?
When did they say they would ship?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on December 17, 2009, 09:47:48 PM

xee2
i modded the pic with ms paint...lol this is how i got it wired

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 17, 2009, 09:49:40 PM

@ kooler

Quote from: kooler on December 17, 2009, 09:47:48 PM
xee2
i modded the pic with ms paint...lol this is how i got it wired

Thanks.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 17, 2009, 10:01:15 PM

Kooler what about stacked on top of each other ? maybe get twice the induction from inside and outside ?

Lights . this is too much light i will tuning this down quite a bit like a fugi and drop the input below 20 4 sure with some more resistance.
this is in the dark and its own light ! Top picture is turned dow as low as it will go on a 10kpot and 2.2k resistor second is wide open 2.2k only

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 17, 2009, 10:35:30 PM

i never did the pennie test as i need to stack a bunch ... and i cut a bunch of them

cuz there was solder on there ends ...

i have been reserching .. it it apears it may be top gold aloy ... mixed with other metals ... im not sure ..

it is darn heavy tho and the odd thing each unit of the connectors weigh 7 grams exactally .. fluke ? or engineered that way ... i think it is way over 24 k that is whay they said ... it was not your normal stuff ... gold is commonly used ... in rf applacations .. infact the most gold on the plannet gets used for electronics far more than joulery

oooooooooooo i got something some one needs .... hi gain rf amp modules ... pure gold wired ... i have hundreds of them ... i bet we can make some kool stuff from em ...

THEY ARE VERRY HIGH GAIN .... npn.......... must USE HEAT SYNCS ... why there cases are alum and they sheild ....

ist

i have many of thease

http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://media.digikey.com/photos/Freescale%2520Photos/MHW1304LAN.JPG&imgrefurl=http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts-kws/freescale-semiconductor-modules&usg=__bvT2GejAQt1ZwHKfHFgK5e-RDLc=&h=640&w=640&sz=79&hl=en&start=2&sig2=BWGwO7tESPyYEoN1r0U2vQ&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=RJ5ng610-p119M:&tbnh=137&tbnw=137&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcatv%2Bamp%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG%26um%3D1&ei=wP0qS6OpEZ-B8QbOsPCbBw

look at the price ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 17, 2009, 10:42:21 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on December 17, 2009, 10:01:15 PM

Lights . this is too much light i will tuning this down quite a bit like a fugi and drop the input below 20 4 sure with some more resistance.
this is in the dark and its own light ! Top picture is turned down as low as it will go on a 10kpot and 2.2k resistor second is wide open 2.2k only

The rheostat at the battery positive works really great here.
It lowers the input voltage and really lowers the usage.
===

Gadget, How much empty toroid is there?
Is it all wrapped?

and related, where is the primary in rel to the secondary wire ends.
They appear to be all in one spot?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 17, 2009, 11:27:13 PM

Quote from: jeanna on December 17, 2009, 10:42:21 PM
The rheostat at the battery positive works really great here.
It lowers the input voltage and really lowers the usage.
===

Gadget, How much empty toroid is there?
Is it all wrapped?

and related, where is the primary in rel to the secondary wire ends.
They appear to be all in one spot?

thank you,

jeanna

Its all wrapped with #26 except one bare spot 3/4 inch . Two turns #22 and 7 turns #22 in the bare spot . I covered it with tape so where you see the thick wires is the bare spot with the primarys . they are close together and dabbded them with clear nailpolish then wrapped with blacktape . Yes i will get me a wire reostat and vary the Vin after i tune it up a bit more . Playing with a capacitor subistution box and setting a good solid oscillation so i can get it dimmer . Right now i cant get it any dimmer without puttg a 220k resistor resistor in series with the pot and 2.2k :) So volts will be the factor to control this one .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 17, 2009, 11:31:06 PM

IST:

Just so you know, there is no such thing as over 24 carat gold. 24 carat=100% gold and you can't get higher than that. 24 carat gold is very very soft and mailable which is why it is not used much for jewelery that sees wear very often. Also, another gold tid bit of info I learned from a guy at Bell Labs is that you could electroplate the entire outside of the Empire State building with under an ounce of gold. The thickness of plating is measured in angstroms.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on December 17, 2009, 11:32:47 PM

your probably drawing static charges off that rug you working on

just kidding

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 17, 2009, 11:43:02 PM

@all

I think we get enough for the hairpin circuit !

A nice video with scope shot !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvCZG5ccPsk

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 17, 2009, 11:55:44 PM

@ bill

why is it catorgized 1 .0000 ... prue if there is no higher grade...

it is an aloy ... but it is not magnetic .. and we cut right through ... colour does not change ...

it has me bugged .... i donk know crap bout gold ... it looks brighter than my ring and it is 10 k

someone has to know!

why would they use it on the input and output ...

all eq pins are gold coloured too looks to be the same material ...

cant find crap all on the net bout a 3 crown ...... so ... makes me wonder ... IT AINT LIKE THEY NEVER MADE EM ... i have many i took apart

serches turn up next to nuttin ... y?

there a trained rf engineer in da house ?

i have this exact unit .. this is what the maker of them say ...

MHW5222A - 450 MHz CATV Amplifier

Our company as a professional Electronic wholesaler for several years fast developing have already beening a famous trading corporation,specialize in wide range of electronic components . we own our warehouse stock enought parts in new and original with official warranties 30 Days' Refund Policy!!!

MHW5222A - 450 MHz CATV Amplifier

designed for broadband applications requiring low distortion characteristics.
Specifically intended for CATV market requirements. Features ionimplanted
arsenic emitter transistors with 7.0 GHz fT, and an ~~~~~all gold metallization system.~~~~what does this mean ?
Broadband Power Gain ' @ f = 40450 MHz
Gp = 22 dB (Typ)
Broadband Noise Figure ' @ f = 40450 MHz
NF = 4.5 dB (Typ)
Superior Gain, Return Loss and DC Current Stability with Temperature
All Gold Metallization ???????
7.0 GHz IonImplanted Transistors

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 18, 2009, 12:14:44 AM

ISt take them to a metal recycler and let him extract the gold . It involves acids ,electricity boron and other dangerious chemicals . . He will know the content , Also a pawn shop can acid test a piece for you but a recycler that has a laser spetigraph can tell you what is is and what alloy content vers gold ,latnium what every . they do it all the time here to test old watches , catalitics ,you name it . It is 100 % accurate .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 18, 2009, 12:23:12 AM

i have a sample at dc tailer julers .. they have the tool .... but they WONT TELL US WHAT IT IS !!!!!!!!!!!

Y?

WHY IS THERE 0 INFO ONLINE ? bout this stuff

???

ist!

im not worried bout it in the least this is odd why i cant find crap out bout it ... i have tones of silver it is worth something too ... and it can not be mistaken ... lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on December 18, 2009, 12:30:54 AM

basically they are hitting higher frequencies than us and in order to be able to handle it and not reduce the frequency with mechanical parts that cannot handle it they are using specialized ion transistors and gold which reduces resistance and losses. its expensive stuff and good. play with those transistors and some air cores, bet you will get some crazy frequencies.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 18, 2009, 01:33:49 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on December 18, 2009, 12:23:12 AM
i have a sample at dc tailer julers .. they have the tool .... but they WONT TELL US WHAT IT IS !!!!!!!!!!!

Y?

WHY IS THERE 0 INFO ONLINE ? bout this stuff

???

ist!

im not worried bout it in the least this is odd why i cant find crap out bout it ... i have tones of silver it is worth something too ... and it can not be mistaken ... lol

ist,
It is just that you do not know what to look for.

I don't get it.
I told you how the alchemists find out if they made gold or something else.
It is the specific gravity.
There is nothing that weighs the same amount as gold.
And a stack of pennies the same physical size as the sticks you showed us will be less than half the weight of the sticks.
Your job is to make the sticks line up and fill the same amount of space.

You need a penny coin tube so the diameter is right.
Then keep forcing the sticks into the paper tube til it is full.
Then make a stack of actual pennies with the same dimensions.

Now weigh them.
If they weigh the same you have copper or nickel that is gold plated.

If it is double the weight you have pure gold.

If it is more than that you ave platinum gold alloy.

It is worth the trouble to make the stack just right so you can see.

jeanna

edit
From what you have described these amps are quite old.
If they were made during the beginning audiophile days when gold cost $35 per ounce, it could have been made from pure gold.
[My vague memory tells me the gold price went open in the early 70's but I do not remember it going high until 1976 or thereabouts.] - vague memory.

http://www.gold-nuggets.org/specific-gravity-test.htm (http://www.gold-nuggets.org/specific-gravity-test.htm)
this is more complicated but you can use this too

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 18, 2009, 01:40:19 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on December 17, 2009, 11:27:13 PM
. Right now i cant get it any dimmer without puttg a 220k resistor resistor in series with the pot and 2.2k :) So volts will be the factor to control this one .

thanks for the building details.

Are you talking about the base resistor or the pos input?
I am still amazed that you can get anything at all with a 220k resistor.

Volts are always the factor along with how fast they move back and forth right?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: IotaYodi on December 18, 2009, 07:33:27 AM

Just one of many.
http://www.scales-n-tools.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=10&products_id=35&zenid=60pc8n4le0918ei7ufqfcpvvu2

The odds are that it is just gold plating. Some higher end Audio will use 24k as its a more precise electron flow and cuts down on distortion. You will need to find the Karat number to determine its worth. Once that is done you could melt it down into blocks and sell or auction it off. A crucible furnace or induction furnace should be used to avoid losing some of the gold due to oxidation. Different Karats have different melting points.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on December 18, 2009, 08:41:06 AM

In this video I just wanted to show the difference the magnets made on the JT transformer. Using the magnets on the transformer makes the light brighter.And makes it so you dont hear the transformer at all.

Here is the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPDKP0Vm4qU

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 18, 2009, 09:16:27 AM

thanks everyone

yes this is old enough ... the wire was solid copper that tells you HOW OLD IT IS ...

coax and solid copper ... im well a ware of gold plateing ... i have many audio exuipment that is gold plate ...

this is far diffrent and you CAN NOT BUY THIS GEAR ... you must have a licence.. THIS IS CONTROLLED ELECTRONICS ....

i guess ... a 2 watt amp requires goverment licenceing to broad cast ...

a 40 w or more YOU WILL NEVER BUY IT ...

TRUST ME ... thay aint at the top of the hydro poles ... for no reason ....

im gonna collect silver i cant go worng there some of the aloys use cadmimun barimium copper ..

in all honesty ... i bit a chunk with my teeth ... and dented it with ease ..

it may be they at the jouelers . think it is stolen ... as the jouelers say it is rare they see anything of this colour .. i dont see it any where else in the unit ... but sencitive places .. where the connection is and where the mod pluggs on the connection .. i dont have it with me any more .. so i can not do the pennie test ...

o well on to the next thing ..

w

ty j

do you know what you posted ... i bet you do not .... ; ) a recap think bout what this says ... lol

The specific gravity for gold is 19.3.
The specific gravity for quartz is 2.65.
The ratio between gold and quartz is 7.28 X. INTRESTING ... YA THINK ... LOL

and this too.... Palladium Pd 12.00 2831 1555 seen the movie IRON MAN ?

: )

this planet is organized by mass... just like tesla mass to mass ... lol just like iron quartz water ...

funny it is 7.28 x eh ? lol hummmmm lol when i was offered the BUY OUT they then informed me THERE WAS NO MORE ADVANCED WORK ON THE PLANET ... THANK YOU ..

TOP ELETE..

MERRY CHRIST MAS ...

ever wonder bout the 69 on all gov bills ... lol i know bout it ... this is why the rich dont pay ANY TAXES HYDRO BILLS TAX OR OTHER ... sure prilivaged info ... just like my gear

circle 69 write accepted .. send it in ..

your welcome ... this is dipolmatic imunity ...

6 and 9 .. sound like a pair of my eyes ... think bout it ... lmfao

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tysb3 on December 18, 2009, 12:09:05 PM

this is my(?) idea: accumulator could recharge itself. sorry, if its crayzy. Im not profesional. Im stil waiting my tools. Cristmas delivery :( ................

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 18, 2009, 01:09:45 PM

Slayer007:

Last night I was fooling around with my Jeanna Light replication and decided, I have no idea why, to stick a strong neo on my toroid. As I approached the toroid, I could see the light getting a bit brighter and the buzzing went up in pitch. So then I added a second neo part way around from where I put the first one and the light got even brighter. I had to adjust my base resistance a little bit but this works well. I have no idea why this would be? So, it raises the frequency and somehow changes the permeability of the toroid or the induction properties I suppose? This is cool to know though.

Good video of the effect.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 18, 2009, 01:17:34 PM

Close . Here is a little inspiration that shows i have mastered the art of self running . this light runs forever but will not be in production as it just to show you all that it is more than possible . You have to take my word for it that its been running for months undisturbed .It took hours to upload on dial up and i have not added annotations . Circuit on this one is not patented YET but just to prove Ou is real and easer than you all think and dont thing too hard because it is right under your noses . this one uses 100 percent standard parts and one transistor and 9 more parts . It runs on dead batteries and charges both the run and the charge to over 1,7 volts in a months time . so far they have not leaked .. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLI0tDd7NnY
No tricks on Gods hournor it very real and i am proud to know how to do this , This will be My 4th E-light Device to produce Light and charge a second battery but this one charges both and runs its own . . I have an agreemnet with Iseral to manufacture My elight with circuit 2 with a switch to toggle run and charge . this one dont need to be switched but there is no regulation and no limit for charge controlling so i will not sell this circuit . the batteries will eventually over charge and cook . The last battery i took out was a 1,5 volt alkiline that reached over 1. 7 volts in the run slot and the charge slot was way higher . These batteries are or were dead ones with just enuff juice in them months ago and now you see they are full charge both of them . If anyone lives close to me i can show you in person . you can measure it with your own equipmet . Ill take it apart to show ther eis nothing hidden ,bring your own batteries and stay for a while and have some coffee . I know you will leave with amazment at the self runners i already have . All you need is a bit of faith and use parts in an unconventional way and unconventional things happen . I will get flamed , crapped on , accused of scams and every dirty thing people come up with . This is a real thing . Its the only one and will not be the last ! I mean nothing and want nothing for showing you this . Its not for sale but a demonstration and a neat light my daughte will have and keep when i am passed . IF you don't believe come and see it . Its simple and i might just post a schematic as this one is not in My patent ,yet . I would rather let you guys check out the aa heater first then you know it will be a sure thing . Love and peace Merry Christmas
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on December 18, 2009, 02:09:53 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on December 17, 2009, 09:07:07 PM
@Jesus

It shows that is self running.
The screen capture is included.
If anybody has a circuit simulator and want the code to test if this is true I will post it here for all to use it.

Jesus

Hi I have B2 spice 2000 circuit simulator, would appreciate the code to run.
Kind regards CRO

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 18, 2009, 02:32:44 PM

nice vid gadget ...

i beleave i have found Palladium eather that or SUPER HIGRADE SS most likely Palladium as it is soft and heavy ss is usually hard ... it is not silver i got lots of that too its not platunmun it is not alum it is neat .... it is non magnetic ... and i FOUND MY FIRST GOLD PLATED ANYTHING SINCE I STARTED TAKEING THINGS APART LOL 2 tiny screws ... i went to un screw them slipped and scratched off the gold plate ... and yes there magnetic ... lol

i CUT RIGHT THROUGH THE OTHERS THAT I THOUGHT GOLD and NO DIFF IN COLOUR

LOOK AT THEASE pics...

first you see gold connecting the 2 peices .. this is gold plate ... the center conector is i think Palladium

yep almost positive of it ...

ist!

the 2 clips showen in pic #5 that i think may be Palladium are where the board plugs into ....

hummmmmmmm why would gold be used inbetween the 2 connections ... and AT THE CONNECTION SOMTHING BETTER MUST BE USED ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 18, 2009, 02:38:29 PM

@ gadget

Quote from: gadgetmall on December 18, 2009, 01:17:34 PM
harges both the run and the charge to over 1,7 volts in a months time

The voltage of a battery is not a good indicator of how much energy is stored in it. For us scientists, please put the recharged batteries in a flashlight and record how long the bulb stays bright with the recharged batteries compared to how long it stays bright with new batteries from the store. This is the best simple way to show that you really are creating more energy.

PS - It is worth doing correctly because if you show you can do this you will get a Nobel prize and they are now worth over a million dollars.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on December 18, 2009, 02:56:10 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on December 17, 2009, 09:07:07 PM
@all

Merry christmass and happy new year!

I found the key to close the loop on the joule thief circuit.
You know that the coil has a part that is called feedback.
I added to it a diode and the circuit was coded into the circuit simulator.

It shows that is self running.
The screen capture is included.
If anybody has a circuit simulator and want the code to test if this is true I will post it here for all to use it.

You know, maybe I die and the circuit is thrown away because is not understood.

Jesus

Jesus can you please give us a little explanation about that winding of the selfrunning that you've posted please?
What's that wire coming up from the middle of the JT? It's just a junction to the coil?
Happy Christmas to you and your Family.
Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 18, 2009, 03:39:57 PM

Pirate88179 and slayer007 and anyone else interested,

This is my theory of what happens when magnets are added to toroid. The magnet lowers the permeability of the core. This reduces the inductance of the coils. This increases es the frequency of the oscillator. This causes more pulses to go to tube per second thus increasing brightness. BUT, reducing inductance of coils also reduces the output voltage. Therefore there is no more energy being delivered to the tube, just more pulses at a lower voltage. I have a very strong 1/2" neo and when I put it on my 3.38" core it lowers the voltage so much that the tube will no longer light. I hope that helps explain what is going on. It is probably a lot more complicated but I think that is basically what is happening.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on December 18, 2009, 03:56:01 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 18, 2009, 01:09:45 PM
Slayer007:

Last night I was fooling around with my Jeanna Light replication and decided, I have no idea why, to stick a strong neo on my toroid. As I approached the toroid, I could see the light getting a bit brighter and the buzzing went up in pitch. So then I added a second neo part way around from where I put the first one and the light got even brighter. I had to adjust my base resistance a little bit but this works well. I have no idea why this would be? So, it raises the frequency and somehow changes the permeability of the toroid or the induction properties I suppose? This is cool to know though.

Good video of the effect.

Bill

i believe what you are doing is saturating the core without the use of electrical magnetic field. there was some documents of a dual torroid "transistor" used in rockets i believe and by the navy, as a matter of fact i think it was the navy that posted the documentation about it. this dual torroid would saturate with DC current. this allowed the effeciency to supposedly reach 100% who knows maybe more.

my curiosity is, can you turn the joule thief off and on while the magnet is attatched and this effect continue? or will it not start? i currently do not have a magnet myself to test with so if you do this test please let me know!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on December 18, 2009, 04:01:23 PM

Quote from: xee2 on December 18, 2009, 03:39:57 PM
Pirate88179 and slayer007 and anyone else interested,

This is my theory of what happens when magnets are added to toroid. The magnet lowers the permeability of the core. This reduces the inductance of the coils. This increases es the frequency of the oscillator. This causes more pulses to go to tube per second thus increasing brightness. BUT, reducing inductance of coils also reduces the output voltage. Therefore there is no more energy being delivered to the tube, just more pulses at a lower voltage. I have a very strong 1/2" neo and when I put it on my 3.38" core it lowers the voltage so much that the tube will no longer light. I hope that helps explain what is going on. It is probably a lot more complicated but I think that is basically what is happening.

thats interesting and honestly not surprising that it lowers the voltage. i would imagin its very hard for a magnetic field to collaps in the presense of a magnetic field which is the exact principle that allows the joule thief to be so effective.

hm but it increases oscilations? i cant help but wonder if it increases the output? perhaps a calculation of before and after in wattage would show a difference of some sort. the MEG or Motionless Electromagnetic Generator seems to use a more complex and controlled version of this very principle.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on December 18, 2009, 04:05:53 PM

i wonder how a magnet would affect the JT if it was the core? it would be presaturated, perhaps the oscilations of the JT would create a desturbance strong enough to generate a surplus.

if using a magnet saturates a nonmagnetic core and prevents magnetic collapses and if the navy is accurate in its judgements then using a ceramic or ferrite bar magnet as a core would yield a 100% effecient transformer. there are some really weak and flexible ferrite magnets commonly used as bumper stickers and on refridgerators, perhaps they would allow a shift in the field.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 18, 2009, 04:29:07 PM

@ Artic_Knight

Quote from: Artic_Knight on December 18, 2009, 03:56:01 PM
i believe what you are doing is saturating the core without the use of electrical magnetic field.

I am very sure that the magnet causes the core to saturate at lower coil drive currents. But I think that is just another way of saying the inductance of the coils is reduced. The coil will store less energy per cycle thus has lower inductance.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 18, 2009, 05:03:07 PM

Quote from: crowclaw on December 18, 2009, 02:09:53 PM
Hi I have B2 spice 2000 circuit simulator, would appreciate the code to run.
Kind regards CRO

This is the code for that specific circuit. I hope that it can help.

$ 1 5.0E-6 10.20027730826997 50 5.0 50
t 240 272 288 272 0 1 -1.263797699743412 0.5676588072418692 100.0
r 240 272 240 208 0 1000.0
w 336 144 368 144 0
w 240 208 240 144 0
w 272 144 240 144 0
w 288 288 288 320 0
w 304 144 304 112 0
v 432 320 432 112 0 0 40.0 1.2 0.0 0.0 0.5
w 304 112 432 112 0
w 368 320 432 320 0
w 368 144 368 256 0
w 304 112 240 112 0
d 240 144 240 112 1 0.805904783
162 368 256 368 320 1 2.1024259 1.0 0.0 0.0
169 272 192 272 144 0 4.0 1.0 1.3552527156068805E-20 -7.1931996917352515E-6
w 336 256 368 256 0
w 336 256 288 256 0
w 288 320 336 320 0
w 336 320 368 320 0
162 336 256 336 320 1 2.1024259 1.0 0.0 0.0
o 0 64 6 35 5.0 9.765625E-5 0 -1

Quote from: guruji on December 18, 2009, 02:56:10 PM
Jesus can you please give us a little explanation about that winding of the selfrunning that you've posted please?
What's that wire coming up from the middle of the JT? It's just a junction to the coil?
Happy Christmas to you and your Family.
Thanks

The winding is a standard 1:1 joule thief.
The wire comming up from the middle of the transformer is the positive connection of the joule thief.

It has a pick up coil but it is not used in this case. The only center taped transformer that the circuit simulator had was that one.

The diode is between the center tap and the wire that goes to the base, but it is before the resistor to be efficient.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 18, 2009, 05:11:50 PM

i just found a few big peices of the weirdest yet ... shinny bigtime weighs almost nothing is not alum not silver weird

it is solid im not sure what is this ?

if it is silver ... it must be better grade than my other stuff cuz it dont look the same .. nor weigh the same ....

ist

im thinking ... i can probally find some good superconductive sparkgap parts ..... maybe build some ... if i can find out what i all have ........

maybe i have hundreds of 1kv caps dc .... ; )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on December 18, 2009, 05:14:35 PM

Quote from: xee2 on December 18, 2009, 04:29:07 PM
@ Artic_Knight

I am very sure that the magnet causes the core to saturate at lower coil drive currents. But I think that is just another way of saying the inductance of the coils is reduced. The coil will store less energy per cycle thus has lower inductance.

i cannot remember where i heard this and maybe this too plays into the inductance thing but supposedly saturating the core left no room for magnetism to travel inside the core so it basically traveled outside the core yet still somewhow tied to it, like high voltage travels outside a wire a saturated core makes the magnetic currents travel outside the core. this seemed more like having a supercooled conductor :D a lossless transport.

well until we get the magical magnetic viewing goggles i fear we may never really know whats happening.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 18, 2009, 05:22:17 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on December 18, 2009, 05:14:35 PM
i cannot remember where i heard this and maybe this too plays into the inductance thing but supposedly saturating the core left no room for magnetism to travel inside the core so it basically traveled outside the core yet still somewhow tied to it, like high voltage travels outside a wire a saturated core makes the magnetic currents travel outside the core. this seemed more like having a supercooled conductor :D a lossless transport.

well until we get the magical magnetic viewing goggles i fear we may never really know whats happening.

I have seen on the internet some people that use iron filings inside a flat bowl and put it over the circuit or transformer to see how the magnetism is.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on December 18, 2009, 06:16:54 PM

A torroidal transformer allows the primary current to be choked while still changing the magnetic field within the influence of the secondary. The magnetic field changes progress through the ring. A regular transformer relies on the current of the secondary to change the impedance of the primary circuit. Thats why when a dc current from say a solar flare is circulated through an ac transformer core it burns out. The primary impedance is so low the winding appears as a dead short to the line. Poof. Ac transformers dont choke the primary current off when the secondaries are drawing current. The impedance drops due to the core magnetic circuit and the current increases in the unchoked primary.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on December 18, 2009, 06:37:14 PM

@Ist

Possibly magnesium or what they call 'white metal'...very light, porus metal used commonly in fishing reels.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on December 18, 2009, 06:54:03 PM

IST, you could just do a burn test on one, see what color the flame is. If you're sure you have a gold sample, then burn that as well, and compare the results.

Otherwise, hammer the hell out of one and send it off to a proper Assay company; pawn shops reek of scoundrels.

PS, you could use a fancy HHO torch to do it. :) Bronze, and brass, when gouged, looks deceptively like jeweler's gold. Real gold will have a dingy color to it, almost spicy mustard yellow, even when scored. 22 carat gold, the stuff people wear, usually contains other elements which give it its luster.

Meanwhile:

I've though about gold, why not use silver? It's got greater conduction properties than gold. ..even considered acquiring enameled silver for winding with.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 18, 2009, 06:54:27 PM

Quote from: xee2 on December 18, 2009, 02:38:29 PM
@ gadget

The voltage of a battery is not a good indicator of how much energy is stored in it. For us scientists, please put the recharged batteries in a flashlight and record how long the bulb stays bright with the recharged batteries compared to how long it stays bright with new batteries from the store. This is the best simple way to show that you really are creating more energy.

PS - It is worth doing correctly because if you show you can do this you will get a Nobel prize and they are now worth over a million dollars.

I already did this test 6 months ago before i started selling E-light . store batteries last 3 days . I can take those dead batteries and put them in this and they last years well two months
so far . My light operate on Volts . Thats all . You all keep saying volts dont matter but for 50 years it always has mattered . Well anyways . It will run fine just like it is and also i don't have to swap this new one out at all or put a battery in the charge slot . the run battery will continue to gain and light leds without it in there . this why she runs month after month and never drops but gain's .so . I just wanted to show it . i am not making anymore test or anything but i wanted to show everyone that it is still right under your noses and people are trying to0 hard to get what is available already. Batteries are one thing . and like i said i offer anyone who wants to test away to come on over and do it . I have no interest in it other than it works . Me I don' t care why or how or what the voltage or energy is as long as it runs led for nothing im happy .:) But thank you for the offer on the Nobel prize . If some one wants to come over and figure out why then ok i'l take the nobel prize and split it . This was a cool fluke that worksi dont intend to make another on eas i am aiming for the big one and i have other pros doing the math and the whys . All i do is make em work and i dont have the patience to burn my brain out figuring it out . I have just a bit of it left .

thanks for your interest xee2 . I am in a bad mood so please dont take My rants as anything but talk but i have part2 ready many hours later of the same batteries running and well you will see . I am sharing My heater circuit with you guys so i am not being greedy here now . I want you all to se for your self . here is parts 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVmwc9OsyB0
Merry Christmas .
Albert .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 18, 2009, 07:03:31 PM

Quote from: Cap-Z-ro on December 18, 2009, 06:37:14 PM
@Ist

Possibly magnesium or what they call 'white metal'...very light, porus metal used commonly in fishing reels.

Regards...

If its magnesium alloy you can light it up ,.Check this out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgzeGhd0adE

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on December 18, 2009, 07:07:17 PM

Heeey...I think I may have smoked some of that stuff back in the sixties.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 18, 2009, 07:19:32 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on December 18, 2009, 07:03:31 PM
If its magnesium alloy you can light it up ,.Check this out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgzeGhd0adE

when i used to take my model t out to bonneville in the late 80's early 90's to run the time trials, it was a ritual there to light up a magnesium engine block... what a surreal sight at night on the salt flats, a mag block burning as bright as the sun. you could feel the heat from at least a block away. jet engines make good lighters ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 18, 2009, 07:28:38 PM

Yes it does. Also, I don't think you can put it out once it gets going. Hence the mg fire starter blocks that I first used on my EER experiments. Those will light a fire in the rain with wet wood.

Bil

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 18, 2009, 07:32:24 PM

Quote from: xee2 on December 18, 2009, 04:29:07 PM

I am very sure that the magnet causes the core to saturate at lower coil drive currents. But I think that is just another way of saying the inductance of the coils is reduced. The coil will store less energy per cycle thus has lower inductance.

Hi xee2,
I like your explanation a lot.
thank you.
---
If I can stretch it even more by thinking of the pulses/sec (= frequency) over the wire substituting for joules/sec(=amps) inside the wire, I think it can help the others who continue to visualize this like a strange dc type circuit.
----

@ArticKnight,
I made my first 2 joule thief circuits ON a magnet as you suggest. I/they worked for a week then stopped.
The magnet had temporarily put the transistor to sleep. I thought it was gone, but some time later after I had taken apart the circuit with the magnet, found it was ok I remember you were there back then, and even made a comment about it.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 18, 2009, 07:39:34 PM

Quote from: sparks on December 18, 2009, 06:16:54 PM
A torroidal transformer allows the primary current to be choked while still changing the magnetic field within the influence of the secondary. .... ....

.... The impedance drops due to the core magnetic circuit and the current increases in the unchoked primary.

Sparks,
Maybe you are the person who can explain this to me.

Where on the hysteresis curve is "choked"

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on December 18, 2009, 08:00:20 PM

@xee2

Quote from: xee2 on December 17, 2009, 09:05:42 PM
@ electricme

I thought it was to reduce radio interference? The resistor is always connected inside of the coil, there is no way to bypass it. I have always wondered about why they would put a resistor in the coil. I just do not know enough about cars to know for sure. Thanks for your feedback.

No, the resistor was not to reduce interference.
As the engine cranks, the starter motor draws almost all the energy (amps) from the battery.
As amps rises, voltage decreases, if the battery is weaker than normal, say in a cold climate for instance, the coil may not have enough power to make a spark to jump the gap inside the sparkplug.
So the 20watt resistor is bypassed only during engine cranking, the extra benefit is the coil doesn't run so hot, so lasts longer.

Then as the engine runs, the resistor is switched in series with the ignition coil primary, it drops the voltage to the ignition coil while the engine is running.

--------------------

The suppression of any spikes was done by 15,000 ohm resistors placed midway in the ignition wires, then special resistance carbon impregnated leads were developed.
Capacitors were placed across any other electric motor that ran in the vehicle, eg wiper motor, electric window winders, solenoids etc.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 18, 2009, 08:32:36 PM

someone asked about modding a maglight to use a jt, i'm not even sure it was in this thread or another jt related thread. my apologies to whomever it was as i didn't have the time to respond when you asked it and then subsequently forgot about it. my bad. i hope you read this post and it helps.

here is a circuit for use in a maglight...
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg167898#msg167898

here is a picture of one of my battery replacement jt's. i told bill i would find a camera and post a picture of it some 600 pages ago... better late than never i guess. ::) it is usually wrapped in electrical tape to look nicer but i removed what i could to make it more visible. the black piece of plastic is from a DMM probe. the transistor is inside the black plastic, the coil and core is just to the left of where the transistor is tucked inside.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 18, 2009, 08:53:37 PM

Wilby:

It does my heart good to see pictures like that. I am starting to get quite a collection of devices designed to run on 3 or 4 AA's and now only use 1 plus the JT circuit. If this keeps up, pretty soon we will have to bail out the battery companies, ha ha.

While you are digging around and have your camera, I would like to know more about your CCFL Light Beer device. I still have my kegs (empty now) and have not done anything with them. Do you think a Jeanna Light toroid circuit would light a CCFL?

Thanks man,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 18, 2009, 09:06:49 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 18, 2009, 08:53:37 PM
Wilby:

It does my heart good to see pictures like that. I am starting to get quite a collection of devices designed to run on 3 or 4 AA's and now only use 1 plus the JT circuit. If this keeps up, pretty soon we will have to bail out the battery companies, ha ha.

While you are digging around and have your camera, I would like to know more about your CCFL Light Beer device. I still have my kegs (empty now) and have not done anything with them. Do you think a Jeanna Light toroid circuit would light a CCFL?

Thanks man,

Bill

actually heairbear brought his camera over a few weeks ago when he stopped over to chew the fat and took that picture. the circuit i powered the beerlight with was a royer oscillator running off a cell phone battery, i think he is stopping by later tonight so if there was something specific you wanted to see close up i can fire off a msg and ask him to bring his camera. last i recall reading was 2000+ V from jeanna's circuit? i think that would do it, that's close to what a bug zapper circuit puts out and those will light ccfl's.

i'll also see if i can get a picture of my high voltage circuit lighting up an incandescent bulb with one wire and no spark gap...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 18, 2009, 09:17:07 PM

Wilby:

Thanks, that would be great! I am sure others here would be interested as well.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on December 18, 2009, 09:45:22 PM

Quote from: jeanna on December 18, 2009, 07:39:34 PM
Sparks,
Maybe you are the person who can explain this to me.

Where on the hysteresis curve is "choked"

thank you,

jeanna

Not sure if I can answer that question. What choked means to me is that the CHANGE in voltage at the supply is not passed through the circuit. The impedance of the circuit is such that the selfinductance of the coil core combination results in no current passing from one terminal of the supply to the other. The change in voltage at the supply is completely absorbed in changing the magnetic field density within the core of the coil. The counteremf is equal to the forward emf. The magnetic field density changes though. This creates a magnetic circuit that in ferrite does not result in setting up magnetic domains and retaintence and hysterisis but causes a precession of the atomic magnetic moments. It just makes the atoms wobble instead of roll into alignment. This magnetic precession is fast and allows the ambient magnetic field to realign the magnetic field of the ferrite upon cessation of the magnetic current within the core material.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 18, 2009, 11:24:07 PM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on December 18, 2009, 09:06:49 PM
...

i'll also see if i can get a picture of my high voltage circuit lighting up an incandescent bulb with one wire and no spark gap...

OOO wilby I really want to see that, please!

@Sparks,
thanks.
It helps a little.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 19, 2009, 12:10:49 AM

will

more .!

show what ever you like !

i would love to see your pics!

im still ripping junk apart ...

you all never seen so many special caps and inductors and tuned coils ... i garentee it ... and all i do to make some scary crap ... wind a jt on the tuned coils ... find a sweet spot lol

ist!

i found SOME SPECIAL 1000V CAPS ... : ) LITTLE RED ONES ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 19, 2009, 03:16:57 AM

PArt 2 of My self running e-light . the special one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVmwc9OsyB0 . IF you remember the volts from the last video then this will interest you and Especially Jesus in the Feedback to Source . this is 12-14 hours later.. its after three in the am here , Ahh .cant sleep

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 19, 2009, 03:52:08 AM

Al:

That is really unreal man. Congratulations!!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 19, 2009, 04:04:17 AM

Good Grief your still up too :) Its not hard to do pirate , really man . I would like to share this but i want someone else to get this Done . I have a feeling Jesus will be the one . This Light required no special parts at all . i can tell you that it uses electrolytic capacitors and three diodes and a toroid bead and a mspa06 transistor . I hate to keep being the one who is always saying It selfruns . This is why i decided to share the Big boy with you guys . Groundloop will make it run like i did . I know he will and that prove i am not a quack . i feel it every time i post something no one has ever seen but me . anyways i still cant sleep . probably get a cup of hot chocolate and browse the I net . //

Opps forgot and made coffee instead :) o well .

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: markdansie on December 19, 2009, 05:55:19 AM

well done, you are far more exciting than Steorn. I have enjoyed following this thread over the last few months and have nothing but praise for the team work showed here.
Although I am a skeptic by default, I have no doubts about what you have demonstrated on your video's.
Once again well done and thanks for restoring some faith.
Could I suggest you use some newer batteries just to see what it does, Ie maintains the voltage(no need to increase) and possibly increase the load (a few more leds)
just suggestions rom a curious onlooker.
Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 19, 2009, 10:57:43 AM

Hi . mark yes i tried new batteries .It stays the same brightness and never changes . the Batteries just get higher . 1.7 volts is the highest i caught . Thats high for an cheap dollar store battery to get that high . anyways the device is tuned to a very low oscillation it is pulsing slow . you can see this by waving the light slowly in front of your eyes and the light appears as dots . Now we all know that our jt lights are pulsed and you have to swing the lights very fast to see any pulsed dots but this one you just move it say from left to right like you are going to pat someone on the back and see the light pulses . this is producing some strong Bemf going that slow of an oscillation and the slow pulses do not light the light very bright but i still can see in the dark with it fine. This one stays in the display cube just another showpiece to my accident collection :) Thanks

Albert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 19, 2009, 03:50:38 PM

Not to waste too much bandwidth.
I am showing the J type 2 1/2" toroid lighting a 7w fluorotube.

This was a big flaky fight.
The secondary output was 4v yesterday and I removed about200 turns or more before it looked like anything, then whenever I breathed on the primary or secondary the voltage jumped to over 400, sometimes over 700v.
So, I knew it was there, but for some reason I could not make it settle.
It was very neat at its worst, and it seems to be better with a little more space.
I remember Gary has said this over and over.
It makes me want to find out if gary's toroids are J type too.
(he uses the 5/$1.)
This is only a little less permeability as numbers go.
It seems very significant.

Oh also, I thought it might be a problem with the breadboard so I did a 'daftman' style board and clipped the movable parts. This did help, but it did not solve the problem, so I conclude it was not the breadboard.

Anyway, for your entertainment, I post a pic.
I will not be using this J type.
Next I will do the same with the W type which you can see on the left getting ready to try out.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 19, 2009, 04:07:10 PM

@gadgetmall

Congratulations!!!

Just dont fight the battle of the patent. Post a schematic for the forum members to replicate and because not everybody likes to build it themselves you can sell kits of it on your website and get as rich as you posibly can.

It does not matter. The world is so big and there are so many people in it that always you will have some people to sell a kit to and your table wont be empty never.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 19, 2009, 04:59:32 PM

After testing the gadgetmall's Joule Thief and his bcap0650, it is my firm opinion that the joule thief is not cop>1. The best I could get out of gadgetmalls was ~ 55% efficiency while charging the bcap0650, and ~ 80% with a fixed resistor as the load. I have on order the exact core gadgetmall uses, and will give it one more try. I've given it a chance, and the recent incident proves to me there's something fishy going on here. Give legit research a chance. Ian & Koen are doing great work on the Crystal batteries. I think Thane Heins is on to something with his bi-toroid designs.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 19, 2009, 06:04:23 PM

I have better results now.
This time I am using the OW46113TC (not the OJ)

I decided to start low since I thought it might work, and it did.
I have wound this in our method of describing it as:

2T,8T100T
236r
Tip31C

835v
465Hz -verrry low!!

However, it does light up that 15w growlight tube, and
a 20w cfl

so, it is real and it was easy and stable, so
My vote is
W all the way baby! ;) ;D ;)

here are 2 pix,

jeanna

Paul... "thank you for sharing"

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 19, 2009, 06:08:46 PM

Quote from: PaulLowrance on December 19, 2009, 04:59:32 PM
After testing the gadgetmall's Joule Thief and his bcap0650, it is my firm opinion that the joule thief is not cop>1. The best I could get out of gadgetmalls was ~ 55% efficiency while charging the bcap0650, and ~ 80% with a fixed resistor as the load. I have on order the exact core gadgetmall uses, and will give it one more try. I've given it a chance, and the recent incident proves to me there's something fishy going on here. Give legit research a chance. Ian & Koen are doing great work on the Crystal batteries. I think Thane Heins is on to something with his bi-toroid designs.

Obviously , you are an expert when it comes to the jt.

Give legit research a chance ?

Well first , the jt is useful , easy to make out of trash , by anyone , ou or not it is useful , like it or not it is as legit as anything on the web .

The jt power source can easily substituted by pretty much anything , since we use 20 mili under 1.5 volts .

The Legit research you claim doesn't even exist , since no OU concept has ever been legitimized in any convincing way , the legit field you are crying for doesn't exist in any way...

We do something useful we should now stop because , we need to dedicate all our time to achieving the OU Status ? Give us a break !

Based on your standard , this complete site is questionable , so what are you still doing here...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 19, 2009, 06:11:10 PM

@ J you know it baby! ; ) W

so i got sick of ripping crap apart for the metals .. wich are likely worthless...

so i started on the circuits ...

first one i rip apart irf 740 gold pins ... it thought it looked gold it is the flux ! second irf 840 and mur 860

so i guess i got lots of fets too

nice vides gadget the 2 torides that get banged 1 is yellow core other green core both as i assume get fired from the colpase of the big cam transformer ...

as well i found SPECIAL transformers ... i would say almost THE EXACT SAME AS JEANNAS COIL ...

there 3 pulse coils wired as 1 banger then a fine green wire .. trigger .... then 3 output wires ....

looks to be higher current ... diodes used in this unit mur 460

im removeing the boards .. then removeing the parts ..

THEN I SHALL RE ARANGE THEM ..

IST

all parts that are contained in thease power supplies ... WILL BUILD SOME ADVANCED JT/ TPU HYBIRD devices ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 19, 2009, 06:37:02 PM

@all

We really need to try Rochelle salt as a core for a jt circuit .

Here is a link http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2008/07/how_to_make_piezo_crystal.html

Making a jt on a piezo crystal !!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 19, 2009, 06:39:13 PM

Mark:

Excellent find. That is amazing.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 19, 2009, 06:46:36 PM

crystals ... ya say ...

why dont you go find 1 from an old video card ... touch it ... see if it will charge your cap ...

i tryed posting SOME OF MY CRYSTAL RINGS ... THEY TURN OFF MY SCREEN!!!!!!!

HUMMMMM

w

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 19, 2009, 06:53:59 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on December 19, 2009, 06:37:02 PM

Making a jt on a piezo crystal !!!!

I am not sure about a peizo core, but it sure is interesting.

I want to share this related bit with you.
Last summer inquorate suggested to bodkins that snapping a peizo lighter might have an effect on his earth battery.
I immediately grabbed a stubblefield coil and wired it centertapped ... connected the secondary wires to the scope.
And watched what happened when I snapped the peizo lighter.

I watched an initial spike or two, then there was a pause,
then another one and pause,
followed by another spike.
All from only one snap!

I took scope shots, but the lighting was a glare that day and I know how people hate that, so I never posted it, but it IS a reasonable direction. (although I am not sure it should be the core).

Great suggestion, great thinking

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 19, 2009, 07:06:48 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on December 19, 2009, 06:08:46 PMObviously , you are an expert when it comes to the jt.

It's not my jt. It's gadgetmalls jt circuit. gadgetmall made a huge claim, I replicated it using all the same parts except the core, and it was 55% efficient. gadgetmall said to use high permeability core, which is what I used. Anyhow, hours ago I ordered the exact core gadgetmall recommends, and we'll see what that does.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 19, 2009, 07:17:36 PM

i have a bunch of old cb radio crystals .. i was gonna make a ring with em ... and squeeze with an electro magnet...

i know the results ...

j just like your lighter ... what do you do to the crystal as you push the button ... apply pressure to the crystal .. it releases re in a ZAP type a form .. you get the same rf as banging 2 crystals togather ...

my designes use the colpase to SQUEEZE THE CRYSTAL....

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 19, 2009, 07:25:10 PM

Quote from: PaulLowrance on December 19, 2009, 07:06:48 PM
It's not my jt. It's gadgetmalls jt circuit. gadgetmall made a huge claim, I replicated it using all the same parts except the core, and it was 55% efficient. gadgetmall said to use high permeability core, which is what I used. Anyhow, hours ago I ordered the exact core gadgetmall recommends.

I am just not sure you have the knowledge to set it right , you did not post any pictures , so we could see ( first if you did it) how you did it , location of the coils , bifilar or not ...

So dumping that on gadget will not work around here , i have see how you arbitrarily tried different base coil resistor value , poking around not knowing what to look for .

It made you look amateurish !

You could have made sure to have all the help needed , working with the good people of this tread, but decided to go off on your own , judging that any help from us is useless , you know better anyway...

He every body needs to enjoy some success from time to time , on there own rights anyway , you have succeeded , depending on your intent but it was to discredit , you made sure of it and acted accordingly...

Some like success even when its discrediting others , plus you use the forum for personal vendetta, then cry that only legit reach should be tolerated...

Don't argue with me , you will always loose out , i wish my English was better , to make my point cutting clear .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 19, 2009, 08:22:33 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on December 19, 2009, 07:25:10 PM
i have see how you arbitrarily tried different base coil resistor value , poking around not knowing what to look for .

It made you look amateurish !

You say that makes me look amateurish. Changing the base resistance of his JT does indeed change the efficiency. If you don't know that, then maybe you're the one looking amateurish.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 19, 2009, 08:28:51 PM

STOP IT
STOP IT
STOP IT
STOP IT
STOP IT
The world will never change for the better if either of you continue.
I mean it.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 19, 2009, 08:33:50 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on December 19, 2009, 07:17:36 PM

my designes use the colpase to SQUEEZE THE CRYSTAL....

ist!

How do you GET the crystal to squeeze in your circuit??

It was so interesting to see the squeezed crystal making multiple rounds of spikes.
I have been looking for the video I made.
I will turn on the other computer. I hope it is there.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 19, 2009, 09:06:56 PM

A few photos of my gadgetmall joule thief replication. The large gray R is 0.1 ohms, used only when I wanted to measure the current. The bcap0650 and all is presently not connected, as it was ... what last week when I did the replication. I have no idea how I left the circuit last, but it appears to be still in tact, but I know the last things I did with it was to see just how efficient I could make it go by tweaking the pot & cap. . Ahh, the 68pF is not in there, but it was in there during the main test. After the main test I tried various size capacitors, including no capacitor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 19, 2009, 09:14:50 PM

Quote from: jeanna on December 19, 2009, 08:33:50 PM
How do you GET the crystal to squeeze in your circuit??

It was so interesting to see the squeezed crystal making multiple rounds of spikes.
I have been looking for the video I made.
I will turn on the other computer. I hope it is there.

thank you,

jeanna

j

there a number of ways you can do this .. the ring design i spoke of earlyer .. was a encased crystal for electrical use ... i would wind a coil over that style unit ...

if a true crystal is used .. many methods may be applyed ..

be this knowen ...

for right now ill leave this here ... !!!!!!!

try a crystal to charge a cap BY YOUR BODY ELECTRICTY BY TOUCH YOU WILL BE SURPRIZED !

thank you

w

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 19, 2009, 10:16:49 PM

I went back.
I must have made a better connection or else the input battery was dead-ish when I started, because those same 100 turns is making 1200 volts!

Here is what happened:
I had forgotten to measure the amps draw.
[I believe the amps draw is only about the take of the transistor and a measure of how long it is on in the process,
but I dutifully measure it anyway, but this time I forgot.]
When I went back, the circuit just did nothing... then I added a fresher battery and the volts went off the chart to 1200v and the amps draw is around 140mA.

Just to celebrate I took this picture:
twoBrudders :D

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 20, 2009, 12:05:06 AM

I HAD WICKET RESULTS .. SO THE SCOPE SAYS ..

I think i got a super simple unit ... it is wound the same a j coil but this is in a transformer .. similar any way but it dont matter .. i jted it .. than dioded 1 side then i switch back and forth .. i need a switch that can do this ...

this with j 's coil and lookie lookie... : )

i made 2 videos ..

ist
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdnV2cWgqBM
got the magnet the right way and in the right spot ... changed the super drained c with a fully charged aa the gadget standard! energizer 2500maH any how it works better scope 10v/d

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Magluvin on December 20, 2009, 12:08:46 AM

Hi all
Was discussing with my good buddy Zeropoint at YT about using a JT with the pulse motors we mess with. Lets say we store the BEMF of the pulse motor to a large cap, Ultra, maybe not even so big, then use the JT to take that to charge the drive battery. As of now, If we just try to dump the stored bemf to the drive bat, we are not getting all of the power stored in the storage cap to the bat if the cap gets to or below the bat voltage, where if we use a JT, we can make use of that energy that is in the cap at voltage levels that are below the bat level. Does that make sense?
Thanks
Magluvin

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 20, 2009, 12:15:45 AM

Mag:

You can run a Bedini type motor from the b-caps and get rid of the batteries all together. I am not saying it will run forever or anything but, the caps pick-up the back emf spikes in a more efficient manner than do batteries from my experience, for whatever that is worth.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 20, 2009, 12:23:08 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 20, 2009, 12:15:45 AM
Mag:

You can run a Bedini type motor from the b-caps and get rid of the batteries all together. I am not saying it will run forever or anything but, the caps pick-up the back emf spikes in a more efficient manner than do batteries from my experience, for whatever that is worth.

Bill

well i am saying my toys built properly and understood properly .. will run forever and beond ;) lol

i aint jokeing ...

just look at what i can do with a aa and 1 transistor 1 diode ... lol

all i need are those damm bcaps... i tell ya.. hahahahaha

ist

this is what im gonna do ... buy your own b cap ... and study it your self ...

100 bucks cdn ... its yours ... ill hard board it ... you saw the videos ... YOU STUDY IT ... lol

then if i sell 2 ill have my 1000 bucks i spent months ago ... for my materials .. then ill study the same thing ... lol

here is the second video ... ill have to pulse it SLOW SO AS I DONT BLOW UP THE BCAPS ....

I YI YI ....

100 BUCKS ITS YOURS ... ODDS are i have a bunch more of those transformers ..

thank you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5FmO55sBAU

pm me if your intrested to purchise a study unit ... all that is needed is a simple relay ... wich i may do public ... i may not ... than that could be atomitic

getting the IDEA YET ?????? LOL

ok watch i have 2 outputs... 1 goes to recharge source ... the NORMAL JT SPIKES.... OTHER CHARGES B CAP.... guess wich is wich ... : )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Magluvin on December 20, 2009, 01:04:28 AM

I hear ya Bill
Lets say not a bedini that battery switching over time is done. In a simple pulse motor, if you capture the back emf and store it to a cap using 1 diode, that voltage in the cap is not capable of being sent back to the bat due to opposite polarity and gnd or common reference connections. But if we use a jt to take from the cap and send its output to the bat, we could make use of most of what we stored in the cap. Even if the pulse motor had a separate charge coil on the rotor to charge a cap, of which some have gotten very good efficiencies from, maybe a jt can help to exceed that by taking the power stored in the cap to send back to the drive bat, or cap as you say, by using what is in the cap that is below the batteries voltage, otherwise that energy is idle as it is not above the bats voltage to charge it.
I havnt seen anyone do a combo like this and just spitting it out to see what the JT's have to say about the possibilities.

And to ist, Yer one crazy dude, dude. You kind of sound like Tito, but 2 hours into the hit of acid you took. ;D Just playin. Yer funny though.

Mags

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on December 20, 2009, 01:22:38 AM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on December 19, 2009, 04:07:10 PM
@gadgetmall

Congratulations!!!

Just dont fight the battle of the patent. Post a schematic for the forum members to replicate and because not everybody likes to build it themselves you can sell kits of it on your website and get as rich as you posibly can.

It does not matter. The world is so big and there are so many people in it that always you will have some people to sell a kit to and your table wont be empty never.

Jesus

This is strange, because it seems that patents are taken out for only frivolous things now days. It seems to be a growing trend to stray from them ( perhaps a great deal of useful things have come up already ).

Quote from: jeanna on December 19, 2009, 08:33:50 PM
How do you GET the crystal to squeeze in your circuit??

It was so interesting to see the squeezed crystal making multiple rounds of spikes.
I have been looking for the video I made.
I will turn on the other computer. I hope it is there.

thank you,

jeanna

You could make a coil of so many turns, ..and the divide then coil, simply pull it apart at the center and place the crystal between it, the action of current would cause the coils to attract, and thus a pressure would ensue. This is a way to squeeze a crystal.

You would need something to hold the crystal securely.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 20, 2009, 01:29:01 AM

here is another ... RA way lol

cadisous 3 loop put the sphere inside .. it ....

or crystal use the sclar from cad is ou s wind x point to minipulate it at its resonant ...

so many ways ...

ist

or pass me my staff .. and ill show you lol

the ball can sit directed in between the snakes heads .. and when you touch it .. you ENGERIZE IT..

la de da .. i know who i am

this is only a small part .. of it tho ... so dont get your hopes up lol ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on December 20, 2009, 01:37:48 AM

Quote from: Magluvin on December 20, 2009, 01:04:28 AM
I hear ya Bill
Lets say not a bedini that battery switching over time is done. In a simple pulse motor, if you capture the back emf and store it to a cap using 1 diode, that voltage in the cap is not capable of being sent back to the bat due to opposite polarity and gnd or common reference connections. But if we use a jt to take from the cap and send its output to the bat, we could make use of most of what we stored in the cap. Even if the pulse motor had a separate charge coil on the rotor to charge a cap, of which some have gotten very good efficiencies from, maybe a jt can help to exceed that by taking the power stored in the cap to send back to the drive bat, or cap as you say, by using what is in the cap that is below the batteries voltage, otherwise that energy is idle as it is not above the bats voltage to charge it.
I havnt seen anyone do a combo like this and just spitting it out to see what the JT's have to say about the possibilities.

And to ist, Yer one crazy dude, dude. You kind of sound like Tito, but 2 hours into the hit of acid you took. ;D Just playin. Yer funny though.

Mags

One option you may consider is using more than one outter coil on the Bedini. Just use this one to do the energy take off, and recircutale the back emf from the primary.

This is essentiall what steorn is doing, their setup just does what i've said and uses more gathering coils. Bedini uses one, and it's reference frame / voltage is obscured by having a trifilar wound primary. In fact, the current surging in cause current surging out on the other two, so when examined side by side, there is probably a lot of wobble in the waveforms' tail ( which is a sign of waste ).

Pirate (Bill), I know you've got one of these setup, do you care to link to your version of the schematics? There are myriads of these plans on the internet, all varying to a degree.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 20, 2009, 02:13:55 AM

Jadaro:

This is what I have been using for mine: (sorry for the crude drawing) I basically copied Introvertabrate's circuit from Youtube.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 20, 2009, 08:35:00 AM

i guess today im building a modulator ...

to finish off the unit i have showen ..

i should be able to come up with a simple unit ..

anyhow thats what im doing today ..

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 20, 2009, 09:45:33 AM

If nobody can't get the joule thief to self-run, then it would nice for you to do some efficiency tests. So far the record is ~ 55% efficient while charging an ultracap. I'm sure that could easily be topped with a different wound core, different transistor, etc. Dare I say that the Joule Thief could go as high as 90% efficiency? ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 20, 2009, 11:40:31 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdYhg6un51k

IST

C MY BORG EYE ?

: )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 20, 2009, 12:23:41 PM

@ PaulLowrance

Quote from: PaulLowrance on December 20, 2009, 09:45:33 AM
If nobody can't get the joule thief to self-run, then it would nice for you to do some efficiency tests. So far the record is ~ 55% efficient while charging an ultracap. I'm sure that could easily be topped with a different wound core, different transistor, etc. Dare I say that the Joule Thief could go as high as 90% efficiency? ;D

Can you post details of how you measured the efficiency? Schematic, readings, calculations, etc.

I have posted efficiency test before and only got about 25%. Attached is the technique I use for measuring output power. Input power is just amps out of battery times battery voltage. This particulate drawing was meant to show how to determine best number of turns for the coils, which is the combination that produces the highest output power rather the the highest output voltage. But, the same technique works for any output power measurement.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 20, 2009, 01:43:18 PM

Xee2:

I am probably showing my ignorance here but, what the heck. My question is are you not creating losses in the circuit by adding the diode, cap and resistor? Would this not alter the true output of the circuit as it would have been before these components were added? All of those components have losses that the original circuit did not have and it just seems to me that this will alter the true efficiency of the circuit that does not normally use them.

My analogy would be if you had a horse that you wanted to see how fast he was compared to other horses and you strapped telemetry and measuring equipment to him weighing 100 pounds, and then tested his speed, one could conclude that that horse was not faster than the other horses except the other horses were tested by distance and time rather than with the heavy telemetry equipment which probably slowed him down.

Thanks,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 20, 2009, 02:13:52 PM

Quote from: xee2 on December 20, 2009, 12:23:41 PM
@ PaulLowrance

Can you post details of how you measured the efficiency? Schematic, readings, calculations, etc.

I have posted efficiency test before and only got about 25%. Attached is the technique I use for measuring output power. Input power is just amps out of battery times battery voltage. This particulate drawing was meant to show how to determine best number of turns for the coils, which is the combination that produces the highest output power rather the the highest output voltage. But, the same technique works for any output power measurement.

Hi, I've used various methods. This was outlined in the ultracap thread.

Method A:
A Keithley meter was used to measure the DC voltage across a 0.10 ohm resistor to get the DC current. A AM-240 meter to measure the DC voltage across the ultracap, which was at ~ 1.3 volts. See the ultracap thread for the exact numbers. So I started the experiment with the ultracap at ~ 1.3 volts. As you know, the power is I*V. Also the voltage & calculated current was measured from the battery or power supply. I tried numerous experiments using different types of batteries, and also a power supply. The initial efficiency was close to only 5%, but I made adjustments such as changing the cap & adjusting the resistor pot, which got it up to 55% efficiency. IMO it would not take much to get it closer to 90%. Perhaps more windings. A better core. I don't know since IMO the JT is not worth much further investigation.

Method B:
This was also detailed in the ultracap thread. For this method I used a fix resistor as a load instead of the ultracapacitor. This would allow for an effective higher resistance load than the ultracapacitor, thus increasing the voltage coming from the magnetic core while decreasing the current, which means less losses in the transistor, etc. Using the ultracap as an effective load has the advantage of removing the voltage spikes, but a fixed resistor alone will have noticeable spikes from the JT circuit. So for this method I placed a small 402 SMD thermistor on the load resistor to measure the rise in temperature. This experiment was followed by a control experiment where the load resistor was removed from the JT circuit and placed across a power supply where I adjust the power supply till the load resistor temperature increased to the same temperature as in the JT experiment. This provided the amount of power that the load resistor was dissipating. The efficiency was ~ 80%.

Thanks for posting your efficiency measurements so others can see that I am not lying about my measurements of the JT not being cop>1. Your efficiency of 25% sounds very believable.

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 20, 2009, 02:31:56 PM

I do not believe that any one here ever claimed that the JT has a COP>1 and I have read the entire topic. So, if you are setting out to prove this I have no idea why.

It would be nice to have COP values to be able to compare one circuit with another, and that would be helpful. I just suspect that the testing methods are altering the real efficiency of the circuit although, by how much I don't know. Certainly not enough to keep it under COP 1 as I don't think a JT is over 1, or even close to 1....yet. (I am an optimist)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 20, 2009, 02:35:12 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 20, 2009, 02:31:56 PM
I do not believe that any one here ever claimed that the JT has a COP>1 and I have read the entire topic. So, if you are setting out to prove this I have no idea why.

It would be nice to have COP values to be able to compare one circuit with another, and that would be helpful. I just suspect that the testing methods are altering the real efficiency of the circuit although, by how much I don't know. Certainly not enough to keep it under COP 1 as I don't think a JT is over 1, or even close to 1....yet. (I am an optimist)

Bill

Bill, you know what cop>1 is. People don't have to use that exact lingo to say the same thing. Gadgetmall makes that claim almost on a daily bases. See his last video where he says the battery voltage is increasing in both source & charging batteries. See gadgetmalls claim in the overunity $15,000+ prize money. The requirements for the prize money is very clear.

Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 20, 2009, 02:39:29 PM

Paul:

But that is a totally different circuit he is talking about. You just tested a sort of replication of his JT circuit alone. Again, I know of no one that claims COP>1 for just a JT circuit by itself. I just want to keep the facts clear here for others coming into our topic. Gadget's circuit for the OU prize is much more than just a stand alone simple JT so, in my opinion, you are comparing apples and oranges here.

As I have said, I do appreciate the testing you have done over in the b-cap topic. Testing the proper way is good for all of us and will help guide us in the direction we want to go.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 20, 2009, 02:43:40 PM

bill i do agree

i loosly use the term jt ...

as most of the things i make are the next thing after the jt ...

i cant wate to build j's coil and do my trick ... lol

wow it will be wild!

william

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 20, 2009, 02:49:57 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 20, 2009, 02:39:29 PM
Paul:

But that is a totally different circuit he is talking about. You just tested a sort of replication of his JT circuit alone. Again, I know of no one that claims COP>1 for just a JT circuit by itself. I just want to keep the facts clear here for others coming into our topic. Gadget's circuit for the OU prize is much more than just a stand alone simple JT so, in my opinion, you are comparing apples and oranges here.

Bill

Bill,

Gadgetmall was making a lot of posts on how his Joule Thief circuit could charge the ultracap from such & such voltage to such & such voltage with hardly no drop in his 2500mAh battery, like on the order of a few mili volts. You can dig for his posts if you want, but his claim to how much he changed the ultracap was relatively high. He's made a lot of outrageous claims. That is the Joule Thief circuit I tested. The one with a 1N34A germanium diode, bcap0650, 2N2222 transistor, etc. Gadgetmall told me I could use a high permeability core, which is what I used. Yesterday I ordered the exact core part number he's using, so we'll see what that does. If it's cop>1, I'll be more than pleased, but I seriously doubt it. The only reason I tested that circuit was because of gadgetmalls huge claims. My measurements showed absolutely nothing close to his claims.

Now if you or someone else has an equally impressive claim, then please let me know and I'll consider replicating it.

Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 20, 2009, 02:57:00 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 20, 2009, 02:39:29 PMGadget's circuit for the OU prize is much more than just a stand alone simple JT

If that exact circuit is published here then I might give it a try.

BTW, I don't know why you keep saying "simple" JT. The topic is about JT, so I don't see what difference it makes if it's simple or complex. I tested the *only* gadgetmall circuit I saw that he was making big claims about. If that's called a simple JT, then great.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hartiberlin on December 20, 2009, 03:05:19 PM

Quote from: jeanna on December 19, 2009, 10:16:49 PM
I went back.
I must have made a better connection or else the input battery was dead-ish when I started, because those same 100 turns is making 1200 volts!

Here is what happened:
I had forgotten to measure the amps draw.
[I believe the amps draw is only about the take of the transistor and a measure of how long it is on in the process,
but I dutifully measure it anyway, but this time I forgot.]
When I went back, the circuit just did nothing... then I added a fresher battery and the volts went off the chart to 1200v and the amps draw is around 140mA.

Just to celebrate I took this picture:
twoBrudders :D

jeanna

Hi Jeanna,
well done.

So you used only one AA battery ?
So the voltage input into your JT was only around 1 Volts when
running the your JT ?

So it was a power input of less than 0.15 Watts to light up
these 2 CFLs ?

That is amazing at this brightness, although CFLs donÂ´t need much
power when energized by RF pulses, but just 0.15 Watts is really
amazing.

How bright were these 2 CFLs ?
The cameras normally donÂ´t show a realistic picture when
shooting lights. ( at least my camera tends to over exposure)

Were these so bright like normal e.g. 10 Watts range types CFLs ?

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on December 20, 2009, 03:05:57 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 20, 2009, 02:13:55 AM
Jadaro:

This is what I have been using for mine: (sorry for the crude drawing) I basically copied Introvertabrate's circuit from Youtube.

Bill

Hi Bill,
Just check your schematic... i think you have your batteries incorrectly labeled. The cathode of your diode coming from the transistors collector is going to your battery labelled supply!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 20, 2009, 03:09:05 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 20, 2009, 01:43:18 PM
All of those components have losses that the original circuit did not have and it just seems to me that this will alter the true efficiency of the circuit that does not normally use them.

The resistor is consuming all of the power coming out of the pickup coil. Thus the circuit produces a total loss of power. The measurement determines how much power is being consumed by the resistor. The capacitor will remain at a constant voltage (about) once it is charged. The capacitor filters out the energy variations due to the pulsed output.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 20, 2009, 03:13:20 PM

Quote from: PaulLowrance on December 20, 2009, 02:57:00 PM
If that exact circuit is published here then I might give it a try.

Paul,
Why don't you look at the ssjt thread. In the beginning of that thread he did post it (and I believe he also posted it here) and describe it to you and to some others. It opened up a long long bunch of stuff. I think you should go to the beginning of that thread and satisfy your curiosity about the schematic.
I have work to do and I would like to be able to work with the other folks here to arrive at some very cool solutions.
I agree with Bill. You are doing some good work but you already led the discussion on 1 if not 2 other threads. So, is that not enough? I read it. I made no comment, but I read it.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 20, 2009, 03:13:23 PM

Some test results.

EDIT: I have had some second thoughts about this test because it can be dangerous. Please note the following.

NOTE - CAPACITORS CHARGED TO HIGH VOLTAGES ARE VERY DANGEROUS.
PUT CAPACITORS IN SERIES TO GET THE VOLTAGE RATING UP TO OVER THE OUTPUT VOLTAGE OF THE COIL. ALWAYS DISCHARGE CAPACITORS WITH AN INSULATED SCREWDDRIVER AS SOON AS POSSIBLE TO PREVENT GETTING ACIDENTALLY ZAP. I DO NOT ADVISE DOING THIS TEST UNLESS YOU KNOW HOW TO WORK WITH HIGH VOLTAGES.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 20, 2009, 03:13:36 PM

A side note, my observations on the long term NiMH 2000mAh battery is that the voltage drops immediately when loaded, as expected because of the batteries internal resistance. After that the battery voltage drops at a good rate. At this point we're in the high 1.2 volt range. This is followed by a slow decline in voltage till it gets to about a volt-- actually I don't recall the exact level at this last stage, but it's around 0.8V to 1V. During this stage the NiMH battery drops at a rate that seemed relatively constant to me. I should look at the data log to see for certain. After this stage it drops at a rapid rate.

That being said, I cannot possibly see a 2500mAh NiMH battery charge a 650 farad ultracap with only a few milli volts drop from the NiMH battery. That would be impressive, but I saw nothing of that sort during my JT circuit test.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 20, 2009, 03:24:22 PM

@ PaulLowrance

Alkaline batteries have similar discharge. From Energizer alkaline handbook.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 20, 2009, 03:41:53 PM

@all

What happened there is over 300 pages missing in this tread...

Ok i see 15 post per pages now , its all there , sorry.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 20, 2009, 04:30:24 PM

@paullowrance

This is the principle that @gadgetmall is using to make his joule thief light recharge the running battery.

the code is posted a few pages back.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on December 20, 2009, 06:03:24 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on December 20, 2009, 04:30:24 PM
@paullowrance

This is the principle that @gadgetmall is using to make his joule thief light recharge the running battery.

the code is posted a few pages back.

Jesus

What are these red things?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 20, 2009, 06:09:20 PM

Quote from: xee2 on December 20, 2009, 03:13:23 PM
Some test results.

those are interesting.
I wonder why you say a higher resistor value.
Both the ones with 20T on the C have very low wattage in your results... and is the other one unstable too?

Perhaps it is too many turns for the C.
Or, does that get fixed with a higher base resistor value?

thank you.

I too have been running tests today. I will be back with some of the results.

@Jesus,
Hi, nice to see you here. I like the drawing program.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 20, 2009, 07:12:20 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on December 20, 2009, 06:03:24 PM
What are these red things?

Those red things are red leds from the circuit simulator program.

Quote from: jeanna on December 20, 2009, 06:09:20 PM
those are interesting.
I wonder why you say a higher resistor value.
Both the ones with 20T on the C have very low wattage in your results... and is the other one unstable too?

Perhaps it is too many turns for the C.
Or, does that get fixed with a higher base resistor value?

thank you.

I too have been running tests today. I will be back with some of the results.

@Jesus,
Hi, nice to see you here. I like the drawing program.

jeanna

Thank you Lady @jeanna!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 20, 2009, 07:20:11 PM

@xee2,
Try 2T,6T instead of 5T. I saw a big decrease in output going from 6T to 5T and maybe 7T is still better??

@All,
I think I have a pdf to share.
I made a chart to compare the mk1-jeanna hybrid with the plain solenoid.
The results are that the special winding shows slightly higher volts in each case, but not much.
What seemed to improve with this design was the stability, but it is hard to say on one example,
But, I keep thinking I am going to find something but when I devise a test, it is unclear.

In fact this winding has doubled the results over what I had been using more than a couple of times, until yesterday with the J type toroid.

I also tested the winding at a few points comparing the2N3904 transistor to a TIP31C.
This makes a really big difference in the volts output.

But again I was using the same transistor when I "discovered" the big difference in this winding.

Then I thought to be sure I was not showing lower volts on the solenoid type because the battery had been used a little I put in another newly charged battery.

Yikes, the newly charged battery showed half the volts ???

I had 2 other newly charged batteries and they showed still different voltages, one even higher than my first trials. ??? ???

The battery voltages were not consistent with the results.
they were all over the place.
I did not chart them, but here they are.

1= the test battery 1.36v gave 411v in test
2=battery 2 1.43v, gave 147v in same test
3=battery 3 1.38v, gave 321v in same test
4=battery 4 1.37v, gave 520v in same test

go figure!! ??? ??? ???

Here is the chart that compares the winding by steps to the same number of turns in a straight solenoid style wind.
Includes info on 2 different transistors.

Please let me know if it is unclear.

thank you,

jeanna

edit:
There is one more thing to report which is amps draw.
I only checked the ampsdraw on the TIP31C, but it is the very same 150-160mA that I have seen on each of my jeanna's lights that use that transistor.

If there is anyone else that uses both kinds of transistors, I would love to see some comparison data.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 20, 2009, 07:27:48 PM

@Jeanna

Interesting , can you see a difference in wave shape ?

Also can you light led for the jt and secondary at the same time , try the led both ways.

Anyway great test !

Mark

http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/35388/The_LightPhenomen_In_Norway_NEW_ANGLE_Video_Clip/

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 20, 2009, 07:36:21 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on December 20, 2009, 07:27:48 PM
@Jeanna

Interesting , can you see a difference in wave shape ?

Also can you light led for the jt and secondary at the same time , try the led both ways.

Anyway great test !

Thanks Mark,
The wave shape is singular and spiky on both kinds of winding styles.
I do not see the complex shape I always do with the MK1.
It was the first thing that startled me when I did the new winding.
(If you recall, I was trying to make a 3 phase winding.)

I will look. I doubt it since the spikes are all going one way, but I will come back and report.

jeanna
edit
No, polarity is strong. The lights go on in one way.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 20, 2009, 08:13:40 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on December 20, 2009, 07:20:11 PM
@xee2,
Try 2T,6T instead of 5T. I saw a big decrease in output going from 6T to 5T and maybe 7T is still better??

There are always more possibilities to try. But it seems to me that 2b & 10c or 3b & 13c provides largest output power with an 80 turn pickup coil. I will next try using a 250 turn pickup and see if they are still best.

I posted how to do the test so that you and others can try different combinations if desired.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 20, 2009, 08:56:06 PM

I am still attempting to tune my Jeanna Light large toroids (2) circuit for best output. I have been removing the winds from my collector windings one at a time. I started with 13 and am now down to 8 and each one I remove the output goes up... a lot.

When I first made the video about this, I found it strange that I could grab the connections to the CFL and not get zapped, even though this was already putting out more than my Fuji which has zapped me many times. I didn't understand this, and still don't, I just figured that maybe the freq. was so much higher that it could not penetrate the skin on my fingers.

Well, now that I am down to 8 turns and still removing them, I touched the connections to the CFL and got one hell of a zap!! So, if my original thoughts were correct, I guess this means the frequency is coming down and the output is still going up. This does hurt.

I will continue to follow Jeanna's suggestions and keep removing them until I see it go the other way. Right now, it is calling for a 45 ohm base resistor where I started with a 25 ohm. I have about 330 turns on the pick-up coil and now only 2 on the base instead of 3. Now I have to be careful not to get zapped again!!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 20, 2009, 09:31:22 PM

Quote from: xee2 on December 20, 2009, 08:13:40 PM

I only suggested it because I found that after I had posted the other numbers, which I got from you.

As always, I appreciate your work.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 20, 2009, 09:42:29 PM

Hi everybody,

I unwound the tor-61 which I was using for today's tests. This is 1 1/2 inch OD if that.
I wound it 4T,7T,74T and saw that I had over 600 volts at 20khz or so. This is great, because the frequency makes it quiet!!
It easily lit a neon and I stuck on the 10w cfl
Half of it lit.
Next, I lit the 7w tube. It was easy to light.

So, encouraged, I pulled out the 20w tube.
This is interesting, because it lit about 1/3 the tube, but it lit it all at the one end. I could let go, no problem, but it would not expand to fill the whole tube.
This is where some heat could probably help, but this is cold electricity and it must do it without heat.

I include 2 pix.
1- is the 7watt tube. Notice how close to the ends it fills the tube with light. (>600v)
2- is the 1/3 lit 20watt tube.

@Bill, way to go!
Isn't this sooo much fun?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on December 20, 2009, 11:14:43 PM

howdy..all
has anyone had a chance to build the side by side toroids to lower input current
i tried it on those 1'' goldmine core with good results i just need more turns to get more volts out
it interesting to see how you have to wire the secondarys after putting more cores in
i wired five 1'' toroids together.. and it like the secondary wire backward to each other to get the volts out of it...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 20, 2009, 11:19:46 PM

@ Pirate88179

Congratulations on getting more power out of your coil and thanks for sharing your test results. You are correct in assuming that the higher frequencies will not hurt you (they only pass over the surface) and that getting zapped would mean the frequency was coming down. However, normally removing turns increases the frequency so I am a little puzzled by your test results. I hope you will try my test for output power and report how many milliwatts are coming out of your pickup coil. I think that will be a good way of comparing the performance of the many designs we come up with (more scientific than trying to say how bright a bulb is). A word of caution, your coil is putting out well over 1000 volts. Use at least 2 capacitors in series to increase the voltage they can handle. AND, be careful, even small capacitors charged to over 1000 volts can be dangerous. Always discharge the capacitors with an insulated screwdriver as soon as possible so that they do not accidentally zap you.

EDIT: On second thought, this test is dangerous. Perhaps it is not such a good thing to do.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 20, 2009, 11:34:28 PM

@ kooler

Quote from: kooler on December 20, 2009, 11:14:43 PM
howdy..all
has anyone had a chance to build the side by side toroids to lower input current
i tried it on those 1'' goldmine core with good results i just need more turns to get more volts out
it interesting to see how you have to wire the secondarys after putting more cores in
i wired five 1'' toroids together.. and it like the secondary wire backward to each other to get the volts out of it...

I am working up to it. I will make one toroid with 250 turn pickup tommorrow and then try two after I do some tests on the single one.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on December 21, 2009, 12:50:43 AM

i was playing with my new schematic software..lol(ms paint) it's more fun to make them this way
cause it to cold to go work in the foxhole.. (15'' snow)
this is very dangerous... BUILD AT YOUR OWN RISK

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 21, 2009, 01:01:39 AM

@ kooler

Quote from: kooler on December 21, 2009, 12:50:43 AM
i was playing with my new schematic software

I like your new software. Very "kooler"

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on December 21, 2009, 01:20:26 AM

xee2
thanks... i was hoping it would show the hookup of the components in detail

i forgot to mention that the cap is a 0.043 uf and the bridge is a 1000v...
and the toroid output is 658volts thru the bridge... but it will charge a 0.0018 cap to 1298 volts in less than a second...(jeanna's design)
i tried a mk1 winding but it didn't charge the cap fast enough...
right now i am working with the 1'' toroid to do the job of the 3.38'' one....
tough job with low ma's...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 21, 2009, 01:28:22 AM

@ kooler

My new coil no longer works. I am not sure what is wrong with it, but it now only produces little sparks. I am going to try to get one without a resistor in it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 21, 2009, 01:34:52 AM

Quote from: kooler on December 21, 2009, 01:20:26 AM
the toroid output is 658volts thru the bridge... but it will charge a 0.0018 cap to 1298 volts in less than a second

That is strange. I think you must be measuring something wrong.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on December 21, 2009, 01:35:38 AM

xee2
stick your finger on the coil and a finger of your other hand on the neg. of the cap to check it...............

just kidding.. don't do it
for real...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on December 21, 2009, 01:40:39 AM

Quote from: xee2 on December 21, 2009, 01:34:52 AM
That is strange. I think you must be measuring something wrong.

my meter sux...
i been looking at some new one... just haven't found what i want
oh.. my scope shows the 1200v spikes ac that is... just don't like putting it on it ...fear of blowing it up...
http://www.tequipment.net/Velleman_hps10se.html (http://www.tequipment.net/Velleman_hps10se.html)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 21, 2009, 01:56:45 AM

Quote from: kooler on December 21, 2009, 01:40:39 AM
my meter sux...
i been looking at some new one... just haven't found what i want
oh.. my scope shows the 1200v spikes ac that is... just don't like putting it on it ...fear of blowing it up...
http://www.tequipment.net/Velleman_hps10se.html (http://www.tequipment.net/Velleman_hps10se.html)

I have a Radio Shack 22-813 digital meter that I bought for about $29 because it only needs AAA batteries and they have lasted a couple of years so far. I have another one that needs $20 batteries, I decided to buy the new one instead of more batteries for the old one.

The only problem is that it has a 600 volt max input.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on December 21, 2009, 02:36:27 AM

@ Jeanna,

Quote from: jeanna on December 20, 2009, 07:20:11 PM
@All,

Yikes, the newly charged battery showed half the volts ???

I had 2 other newly charged batteries and they showed still different voltages, one even higher than my first trials. ??? ???

The battery voltages were not consistent with the results.
they were all over the place.
I did not chart them, but here they are.

1= the test battery 1.36v gave 411v in test
2=battery 2 1.43v, gave 147v in same test
3=battery 3 1.38v, gave 321v in same test
4=battery 4 1.37v, gave 520v in same test

go figure!! ??? ??? ???

Hmmmm, Are all these batteries the same brand or different brands?
Check the current rating of each cell, see if any are different to the others.

Then again, different manufactiures use different receipies of the "batt mix".
Then there is the center electrode, is it the same length, cross sectional area, the more carbon exposed to "the mix" will allow a higher output.
Don't know about the others on here, but I hadnt given this any thought before.

This could also have a reflect on Pauls special test he has done for Gadgets OU quest, but then again, Paul also said he tried using a power supply too.
I don't know, just throwing my 2 cents in here, seeing if we can come up with an answer.

jim

BTW everyone, still no broadband setup in my neck of the woods yet, and I would like to wish you all a merry xmass and a safe xmass break.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on December 21, 2009, 02:38:12 AM

@xee2
i think i will do all my diagrams that way

keep it safe

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 21, 2009, 03:08:44 AM

@Kooler,
I love your drawing. It is sooo good. soo 3D

@jim
Same brand bought at the same time recharged all together in the samre charger.
It is very interesting, Isn't it?

@everybody,

I am pretty excited about the video I will be making.
I took a preview still to show you why.
I modified a 19led LOA bulb last week and yesterday I got the final piece and it just went all together. You will see the video 'how to' , but here is the still pic. in front of the 4w little tube running off the circuit I made up today.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 21, 2009, 03:54:19 AM

@Jeanna

Nice work there , it seems to give more light then cfl.

You raised the bar again !

Good work!

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 21, 2009, 04:07:07 AM

Jeanna:

Excellent!! That looks so cool, very bright and, you can carry it around, ha ha. We may have to call this the Jeanna Light II? That globe looks like it gives really good diffusion of the light without choking it off.

Very cool.

Xee2:

Thank you for that explanation. So I have more volts at a lower freq. I made some other changes besides reducing the winds on the collector so maybe that is why the freq. lowered? When I get it all sorted out, I will post the changes and results. it all started because I fried that 15 turn variable resistor and switched to the only other kind I had which is a 1k. The base is only calling for 45 ohms at this time so that is a little unstable using the 1k pot. I will get some other resistors once I get it tuned. Thanks for the safety cautions as well. One can't be too careful and I do appreciate it.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 21, 2009, 05:21:16 AM

@kooler
@jeanna
@pirate
@all

Congratulations!!!
Good job!!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on December 21, 2009, 07:20:52 AM

Quote from: kooler on December 21, 2009, 12:50:43 AM
i was playing with my new schematic software..lol(ms paint) it's more fun to make them this way
cause it to cold to go work in the foxhole.. (15'' snow)
this is very dangerous... BUILD AT YOUR OWN RISK

Kooler very nice circuit. Can you please give the parts of that?
Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 21, 2009, 10:37:00 AM

Hi all ..Its me The Black Sheep :) I don't want to Stay long i might cause a tornado or something i just wanted to wish everyone in the gang a Very Merry Christmas and apologize for any Transgression i caused . I did not intend to make a mess and add to the mess . I thought it was a good thing so I'll see y'all next year and i have some good news for my friends later on .
Peace and goodwill guys and gals

Albert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 21, 2009, 10:42:59 AM

Quote from: xee2 on December 20, 2009, 03:24:22 PM
@ PaulLowrance

Alkaline batteries have similar discharge. From Energizer alkaline handbook.

Very nice graph! That's what I saw. :) BTW, nice JT testing circuit you showed in another post. There are so many JT circuits out there.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 21, 2009, 10:50:42 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on December 21, 2009, 10:37:00 AM
Hi all ..Its me The Black Sheep :) I don't want to Stay long i might cause a tornado or something i just wanted to wish everyone in the gang a Very Merry Christmas and apologize for any Transgression i caused . I did not intend to make a mess and add to the mess . I thought it was a good thing so I'll see y'all next year and i have some good news for my friends later on .
Peace and goodwill guys and gals

Albert

no need to apoligize .. gadget ...

some of them learn MOST DO NOT your not wrong my good friend ...

i would have done the same thing ... 1 person can only be backed into a conner so long ... then i have been knowen to come out swinging ... ; )

so who's fault is it if they can not understand nor build ... i have tryed to aid this process over the years ..

i can build whatever i want to build ...

as can you sir!

william!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on December 21, 2009, 11:09:47 AM

gadget thanks for the nice snow globe..
and Merry Christmas

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 21, 2009, 11:26:06 AM

@gadgetmall

Merry christmass to you too and to your daughter!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 21, 2009, 01:43:50 PM

The previous circuit I posted for measuring the JT output power had a safety problem because if the resistor was ever not connected across the capacitor (even for just an instant) the capacitor would charge up to the full open circuit output voltage of the pickup coil which might be well over 1000 volts. Even small capacitors charged to over 1000 volts can be dangerous. As long as the resistor was never disconnected, the capacitor voltage would stay under 50 volts and was not so dangerous. To prevent the capacitors from charging to over 100 volts I have added the neon bulb. The neon bulb remain off until the voltage across the capacitor reaches about 100 volts. Thus in normal operation the neon bulb does not change any measurements. But now, in order for the capacitors to charge up to the full output voltage of the open circuit pickup coil, both the resistor and the neon would have to be simultaneously disconnected from the capacitor. Thus there is a much smaller chance that the capacitor will ever charge to dangerous levels. If the voltage across the capacitor ever trys to go over 100 volts the neon will turn on and prevent the voltage from going over 100 volts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 21, 2009, 02:48:39 PM

xee2,
This whole thing is so confusing.
Putting the neon in the secondary might limit the v to 100 (or 170 spiky volts, more likely,) but the thing is it will limit it and it is the volts you are measuring to use in the ohms law based formula.
I have issues with using ohms law with ac or pulsed dc, but besides those objections, how on earth are you ever going to see a volts reading that is above what the neon siphons out?

I don't get it??

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 21, 2009, 03:40:35 PM

thank you guys..

now any one with 2 wits about them can put it togather ...

any how be careful...

so i will explain ...

just as i have showen .. in my most recient videos ...

i have 2 outputs ...1 normal jt spikes used to charge a low voltage cap 2 many powerful spikes ... ment to charge output caps..

this can be configured many ways ... meaning stright through ou put ... this means insted of recharge ... BOTH ARE SENT TO FILIMENT BULB...

thank you

william

heres the scope ... kids are over for a few days im cleaning up then we are building and makeing videos ... this means ... all 3 of us ...

anyhow .. i have those ramma chasers .. still i will use those to conrtol fets to flip flop between low and high for a basic unit i will use the ramma toy to sub a relay or other switching means ...

i can charge caps and allow them to release or i can probally drive loads .... never publically tryed yet ...

l8r

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 21, 2009, 04:50:32 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on December 21, 2009, 02:48:39 PM
xee2,
This whole thing is so confusing.
Putting the neon in the secondary might limit the v to 100 (or 170 spiky volts, more likely,) but the thing is it will limit it and it is the volts you are measuring to use in the ohms law based formula.
I have issues with using ohms law with ac or pulsed dc, but besides those objections, how on earth are you ever going to see a volts reading that is above what the neon siphons out?

I don't get it??

thank you,

jeanna

The diode and the capacitor make a half wave rectifier, so there is DC coming out of the capacitor. The voltage across the resistor will always be less than 100 volts because it would take a lot more current than the JT can supply to get the voltage across a 10K resistor higher than that (remember, E = I x R). The voltage increases until the JT can no longer supply more current. That is the point I am trying to find. Since the voltage does not ever get to 100 volts, the neons never turns on - it is just there for safety.

You can see what is happening on your scope by just putting a resistor across the outputs of the pickup coil and then looking at the AC voltage across the resistor with the scope. Make sure that resistor stays connected or you will blow your scope. Start with a 10K resistor. Next use a 1K resistor. You will see that as the resistor value decreases so does the voltage across it. At the limit of a zero ohm resistor there will be zero volts across it.

I hope that helps

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 21, 2009, 06:00:46 PM

I have made a 2B-10C-250P coil on 3.38" toroid. I sprayed the core with clear plastic and used wire wrap wire. No problems with shorts (yet). I have just started doing tests. But it does not seem to put out as much power as the coil with 80 turn pickup. More later.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tysb3 on December 21, 2009, 07:27:30 PM

Hi,
now I have my toys, and Im playing :)
I improve my driwe. But I dont have oscioloscope to adjust capacitors for biggest aplitude on diods.
my JT now running about 1 hour and dont drop voltage, stay same 1.274 V
Im waiting for my camera deliveri.
after Ill post pictures

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tysb3 on December 21, 2009, 07:39:39 PM

sorry, I lose diode on drive

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 21, 2009, 08:14:15 PM

ok i have up graded my transistor to 3055 and gadgetmall standard aa

2500mah and i will SAY HEAT SYNC IS A MUST !

the darn thing gets hot! and it does its job well .. im working out some kind of switching thing and 2 caps .. 1 to recharge source battery and 1 to charge out caps ...

ist

i have found there is a delicate ballance of EXTERNAL APPLYED MAGNETICS and the location and polarity ... make a big diff ... i change my freq of my entire set up by changeing where the neo is placed... my spikes get bigger with more freq .... lol

so it seams to be a GAIN GAIN game..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 21, 2009, 08:23:05 PM

Quote from: tysb3 on December 21, 2009, 07:27:30 PM
my JT now running about 1 hour and dont drop voltage, stay same 1,274 V

I assume you mean the battery voltage stays at 1.274 volts. If you are getting one thousand volt output then I think you have done something amazing because that is hard to do with a 19 turn JT. Good luch with your tests.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tysb3 on December 21, 2009, 08:49:13 PM

@ xee2
yes rech. battery on running JT, now climbing to 1.275 v

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 21, 2009, 09:08:46 PM

The first testing with my new coil is disappointing. The output voltage is only a little over 1000 volts and the CFL is hardly any brighter than with the 80 turn pickup coil (but it does seem a bit brighter). I need to figure out why the output voltage is not higher.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 21, 2009, 09:17:13 PM

Xee2:

Welcome to my world. Your light (given the differences in exposures from cameras) appears to be about as bright as mine. Remember I used 2 toroids stacked together so when I wound 330 turns (give or take) I have a lot more wire there than on a single toroid.

When I see Jeanna's, and others photos, i am thinking, why did I use 2 toroids and all that wire as this does not seem any brighter, and maybe not even as bright, as what they are doing.

So, at this time, I can not recommend using 2 toroids as I have not seen a huge gain from this, or any gain really. I am not done tuning yet but, I don't see it being a big breakthrough at this point. I was just glad to be able to be shocked by it when I was not before. But, maybe this lower freq. is not what we want? I would guess that the lower freq. will allow longer battery life as it is not turning on and off so fast but, I really don't know.

Later, when I get back from a job, I will continue with my tuning and see what happens. I don't expect any order of magnitude increases though.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tysb3 on December 21, 2009, 10:30:40 PM

now climbing to 1.276V.
the battary NI-CD AA700mAh recharge itself !!!!!!!!!!!!
I cant belive my eys. all parts from tv, from skip. I have only multimetter, breadbord and soldering tools.
I cant ajust properly it, but its gooooooooo

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on December 21, 2009, 10:34:51 PM

tysb3
i think i might build your circuit.. if you don't mind
i tried the same feedback on my second stage of my circuit .. but it puts out to much
it over runs the rest of my primany circuit.. burning the tansistor
i like what i see on your circuit.. what r the cap values at the feedback...
thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tysb3 on December 21, 2009, 10:55:13 PM

@ kooler

from picup coil capacitor is M .55J,
from collector 10.0 mkf

its need to play with this caps to inproove JT

transistor is D1885 from tv line transformer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 21, 2009, 10:55:52 PM

@tysb3

This a cleaned up schematic of your circuit.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on December 21, 2009, 11:03:20 PM

thank you very much
tysb3,
jesus,

i take it that those diodes are standard 1n400*

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tysb3 on December 21, 2009, 11:15:58 PM

@ nievesoliveras
yes it is, wery nice :)
only cap is not 1000, - it is runing now 100 mkf, but mayby 1000 is better

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on December 21, 2009, 11:24:31 PM

stupid question here but does anyone know what a christmas light bulb is rated
i think the volts are like 2.5.. ma's????
the mini bulbs

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 21, 2009, 11:32:45 PM

Quote from: tysb3 on December 21, 2009, 11:15:58 PM
@ nievesoliveras
yes it is, wery nice :)
only cap is not 1000, - it is runing now 100 mkf, but mayby 1000 is better

Here is the circuit with 100mf.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 22, 2009, 12:08:23 AM

MERRY CHRISTMAS...

ENJOY!

W

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xf2_mUt29LI

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 22, 2009, 12:28:08 AM

Quote from: kooler on December 21, 2009, 11:24:31 PM
stupid question here but does anyone know what a christmas light bulb is rated
i think the volts are like 2.5.. ma's????
the mini bulbs

My box says "Replacement bulb 2.5V"

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 22, 2009, 01:08:40 AM

Hi everybody.
I made a little video of my 19 led light bulb/lamp modification.
Basically I changed this store bought 19 led bulb to be a a light that runs off a secondary (jeanna's light, I guess) and then I changed the lamp and its switch to hold the battery and turn on like a normal lamp. It works well.

http://www.youtube.com/user/jeannacav#p/a/u/0/Hc2B2rzthoA (http://www.youtube.com/user/jeannacav#p/a/u/0/Hc2B2rzthoA)

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 22, 2009, 01:28:28 AM

@Jeanna

Great video !

Now if we could get the earth battery to run those , Could you imagine having to run wires all over the house ::) Jeanna Lighting Co !

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 22, 2009, 01:39:54 AM

Jeanna:

Can I buy stock in the Jeanna Lighting Company? Great video. You explained everything very well.

Excellent job!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on December 22, 2009, 02:08:29 AM

@Jeanna
Firsf, condgrats on your last jpg showing the 4W tube and the much brighter CFL lamp, you are doing fine.

Quote from: jeanna on December 21, 2009, 02:48:39 PM
xee2,
This whole thing is so confusing.
Putting the neon in the secondary might limit the v to 100 (or 170 spiky volts, more likely,) but the thing is it will limit it and it is the volts you are measuring to use in the ohms law based formula.
I have issues with using ohms law with ac or pulsed dc, but besides those objections, how on earth are you ever going to see a volts reading that is above what the neon siphons out?

I don't get it??

thank you,

jeanna

As he said, the neon is his safety device along with the capacitor (I recomend you use a cap with a high voltage rating).

If he wants to measure total output, then just disconnect the cap and neon, and let it run.

@ Bill
You mentioned you had blown your variable resistor, he he, you have managed to switch current through the vari resistor, answer is, you need a higher current carrying device to be able to pass the current, gess what, your JT is getting ready to be able to put out current, just a little tuning and la do do da. Amps.
Try placing a single torch bulb 1.5volt across the output, it might glow.

You can set up another transistor (BC548) across the resistor connection points and switch the base with the Hzs.

Big electrical storm approaching, power fluxuating, I betta be off.

hooroo

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 22, 2009, 02:11:10 AM

Thanks Mark
Thanks Bill,

It is funny, Mark, I was thinking how the earth battery can only be used outside or with a long wire.
After making 3 lamps so far, I realize it is really nice to have them be as independent as a candle.

It is subtle, but when I was thinking about this today, I realized it not only frees up lots of plugs, but it gets the wires out of the way and the lamp can go anywhere.

You know how the catalogs always show lamps with the cord hidden somewhere off the scene?
This lamp can be in the middle of a circular table and there is no cord!

====

Those 19 leds lights are very convenient etc, but the best one yet is the globe lamp because of 2 things.
1- It uses the 2N3904. That means it will run down a AAA 700mAH battery in 10 hours or more, but these 19 leds or the cfl or even the 34 led string o lights works best on a transistor that takes much more power to operate and uses up my batteries in 5 hours.
That is still the greater part of one evening, but it means it needs to be recharged the next day.

(Enter jesus and gary and bedini.)

2- it runs 6 leds in series and each one of those has 4 in parallel.

I am wanting to see if there is a difference in running leds in parallel when they are coming off a secondary at high frequency.
I think it is nothing like the usual scenario. I think you will not wear out the leds at different paces with the high frequency low mA.

If 4 leds are in parallel and one has a little less resistance it will be very bright for a time, but then it will go dim as it is slowly burned out. This is caused by too many amps going through that one bulb.
I think this does not happen when high frequency is used, .
I will try to work out a way to learn about this.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 22, 2009, 02:15:21 AM

Jeanna:

You could use an EER and a B-cap, JT and an SEC from Dr. Stiffler and run the lights in your house with no wires for free. We may not quite be there yet but, this might be possible. I'm just thinking here.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 22, 2009, 07:49:13 AM

Lady @jeanna
@ist

The year's last videos seems to be yours.
Congratulations both.

Keep sharing the way youre doing.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 22, 2009, 02:02:23 PM

thank you jesus!

im still playing .. lol

im adding a few pictures of my unit as it is now i added an indicator led a recharge aa holder just bult the feedback/ recovery / recharge feed curcit .. i mounted 3 out put pins and 2 input ..

a switch uped the magnet ... i will still oscolate between recharge /feedback.. and boost cap charge .. via some means .. it will be external of this unit ..

this is just super basic jt transformer tuned via magnet

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on December 22, 2009, 02:08:35 PM

Quote from: tysb3 on December 21, 2009, 10:30:40 PM
now climbing to 1.276V.
the battary NI-CD AA700mAh recharge itself !!!!!!!!!!!!
I cant belive my eys. all parts from tv, from skip. I have only multimetter, breadbord and soldering tools.
I cant ajust properly it, but its gooooooooo

Hi Tysb3 thanks for sharing what transistor you're using?
Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 22, 2009, 02:19:54 PM

I graphed some data from JT I have built. It seems like there is not much point in using more than about 150 turns. I plan to add another data point at about 150 turns. I think this would be a valuable thing for jeanna to check me on. She is good at catching my mistakes. This data is with 2 base and 10 collector turns and a 2N3055 transistor.

EDIT: This result may be due to not having enough battery current. I wll try to test that.

EDIT: Using 2 D-cells and a 10,000 uF capacitor in parallel for a power source pushed to voltage with 250 turns up to 701 volts. So there is some performance limitation due to battery current, but not enough to be the main cause.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: broli on December 22, 2009, 02:34:10 PM

xee2 have you tried a higher current rated transistor? I think jeanna's big succes has to do with this, more current = more magnetism = bigger collapse. That is if transistor gets saturated before the core does.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 22, 2009, 03:03:00 PM

Quote from: broli on December 22, 2009, 02:34:10 PM
xee2 have you tried a higher current rated transistor? I think jeanna's big succes has to do with this, more current = more magnetism = bigger collapse. That is if transistor gets saturated before the core does.

Yes. More current will produce higher output voltage until something saturates.

This was a test of voltage vs turns with everything else constant. Not a test to see how much voltage I could get. The point is that it seems like there is a diminishing return for adding more turns.

EDIT: I know I can get over 1000 volts out using the toroid and the same transistor, so I do not think these test results are due to saturating the core or transistor. But, I also do not understand why the voltage is being limited. In a normal transformer the voltage keeps increasing with turns until the core saturates. I had expected that to be the case for the JT also, but it does not seem like the JT works that way. Of course my data might be bad.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tysb3 on December 22, 2009, 03:17:39 PM

@ guruji
transistor is D1885 from tv's line transformer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tysb3 on December 22, 2009, 03:59:32 PM

Hi,
now my baby is runing untouchible about 20 hours.
from the start meter was showing 1.274V, now its climbing to 1.275V.
it is still same LED diode brightnes (not so bright), same frequency (about 10 Hz )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 22, 2009, 04:06:28 PM

@ tysb3

Quote from: tysb3 on December 22, 2009, 03:59:32 PM
(about 10 Hz )

Does that mean that the LED is blinking fast?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on December 22, 2009, 04:25:04 PM

Hi All, this is my first attempt at posting a pic! My Xmas party piece.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 22, 2009, 04:30:29 PM

Quote from: crowclaw on December 22, 2009, 04:25:04 PM
Hi All, this is my first attempt at posting a pic! My Xmas party piece.

Pictures work best if reduced to 640x480 before posting.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tysb3 on December 22, 2009, 04:30:42 PM

@ xee2
yes, its fast flashing

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on December 22, 2009, 04:42:45 PM

Quote from: xee2 on December 22, 2009, 04:30:29 PM
Pictures work best if reduced to 640x480 before posting.

Whoops... what did I say, I'll have another go... sorry It is my first time.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on December 22, 2009, 04:53:16 PM

Quote from: xee2 on December 22, 2009, 04:30:29 PM
Pictures work best if reduced to 640x480 before posting.

@Xee2
Thanks Merv

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 22, 2009, 06:29:03 PM

@ crowclaw

Quote from: crowclaw on December 22, 2009, 04:25:04 PM
Xmas party piece.

I assume that a JT is built in. Nice job. Did you say it was powered by your new wireless power invention and sell stock in your company? I bet they would have believed you.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 22, 2009, 06:44:49 PM

Quote from: xee2 on December 22, 2009, 02:19:54 PM
I graphed some data from JT I have built. It seems like there is not much point in using more than about 150 turns. I plan to add another data point at about 150 turns. I think this would be a valuable thing for jeanna to check me on. She is good at catching my mistakes. This data is with 2 base and 10 collector turns and a 2N3055 transistor.

EDIT: This result may be due to not having enough battery current. I wll try to test that.

EDIT: Using 2 D-cells and a 10,000 uF capacitor in parallel for a power source pushed to voltage with 250 turns up to 701 volts. So there is some performance limitation due to battery current, but not enough to be the main cause.

Nice graph , i have a question for you , at some point you say its useless to put more turns on the pickup, once you have reached that point could you try bigger gauge wire on the jt side to see if it gives you the same voltage.

I hope this make sense , really nice work there , as usual , Thank you !

mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 22, 2009, 06:55:39 PM

@ crowclaw:

Nice job! What are you powering that with? It looks good.

@MK1:

I am wondering the same thing. On my Jeanna Light toroid, I removed the 28 ga. magnet wire (13 turns) on my collector coil and have replaced it with 22 ga. insulated stranded wire and I started at 13 turns and have been removing them one at a time. As I remove the turns, my volts go up but, my feq. has dropped evidence by my decent zap the other night with my fingers.

Xee2 said my freq. should be going up while removing collector turns and he is probably right because I may have dropped way down in freq. just by making the wire gauge size change on the collector and now as I remove them it very well could be going up. Actually, I believe it is now that I think of it. My buzzing is now almost so high you can't hear it.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 22, 2009, 07:10:55 PM

@ Mk1

Quote from: Mk1 on December 22, 2009, 06:44:49 PM
Nice graph , i have a question for you , at some point you say its useless to put more turns on the pickup, once you have reached that point could you try bigger gauge wire on the jt side to see if it gives you the same voltage.

I hope this make sense , really nice work there , as usual , Thank you !

mark

I am not sure what would help. I expected voltage to increase until core saturated. I do not think core is saturating since I can get over 1000 volts out by decreasing base resistor value.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 22, 2009, 07:26:21 PM

@xee

To reduce efficiency losses , anyway i think this can change some thing , and i saw a perfect opportunity to clear this up , since you are the best at this .

Sorry if you see it as point less , but i was thinking of current also.

Thanks

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 22, 2009, 08:31:18 PM

@ Mk1

Quote from: Mk1 on December 22, 2009, 07:26:21 PM
Sorry if you see it as point less , but i was thinking of current also.

I am not saying anything is pointless. I have tried several things, including changing wire diameters. But if more turns do not help, then it does seem pointless to spend time and money putting them on the core. I am just trying to find out if that is the case or not. My limited data seems to show that there is a limit to how many pickup turns can be added to increase output voltage.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on December 22, 2009, 08:38:22 PM

Quote from: xee2 on December 22, 2009, 06:29:03 PM
@ crowclaw

I assume that a JT is built in. Nice job. Did you say it was powered by your new wireless power invention and sell stock in your company? I bet they would have believed you.

You know, it would make a great claim: ..it's not a perpetual motion machine, it's being powered wireless by the core of the earth.

- - - - -

Some of you tried winding around a magnet? ..I thought I read about this many thousands of posts ago.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 22, 2009, 09:47:32 PM

i knew my sun would speek ...

he was winding them yesterday ... ; ) never ran them as it was a test i was conductiong ...

lol anyhow works as i thought lol

ok not the point for my post .. im makeing for the kids a simple jt lite ... and for the older kids ... ill add a recover /recharge winding ... im useing the ist mini toroide .. found inside the ramma sun beam clf's

ill add pics .. it is a 2 turn jt ... liteing 4 ultra brights ... ill add secondary recharge coil for the older kids

ist!

on this mini im useing a 33 ohm 1w to stop from cooking my npn's leds are bright transistor is safe from over heating ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: broli on December 22, 2009, 10:05:48 PM

Has anyone used the secondary with some diodes on the running battery to recharge it? I believe GM has been doing this but besides him I haven't seen other circuits doing this.

Edit: Looks like I found my answer two pages ago.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 22, 2009, 10:42:25 PM

Hi Gang . OK i have another surprise . This is the Jt i built for Paul but instead am sending it to My Friend Alex ! . NOW someone tel me if this is normal . This is the Exact circuit i posted in the SSJT thread on page one . Using the exact same parts . and # 26 wire for both 11 turn primary and 22 turn secondary .. OK now CHECK this out PLEASE ,,
Picture one is the simple Standard super JT i call this one . It must be the transistor . The black thing is a big ole one ohm resistor . This is where i check the current draw of the circuit . I did check it without it and same measurments . and i checked it with two meters both are the same ..OK
Pic two is the voltages of the battery and the output of the CE junction thru a germanium 1n60 diode on the ce junction ... OK NOW
Pic3 is the current draw of this circuit and the output current of this circuit . Measurements are don simultaneous . Basically the ampmeter is shorting the output to get those reading minus the volt drop of the diode . So the Led remains lit a bit . Voltage of the aa battery is 1.273 drawing 3.09 milliamps and the output is 3.252 volts at 21.63 milliamps . NOW IS THIS NORMAL or have i just never paid attention . Can some one tell me what this means .other than what i think it means ?? PLEASE . anyways Alex is getting this on ein the mail tomorrow !!! Have i just made another discovery or is this old news to get more out than in . volts and current ??? Remember i check this with two meters and swapped them just to be sure it was not a meter problem ..

ALbert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 22, 2009, 11:06:42 PM

@Gadget

That is about right you got those readings at the led ?

That is what it takes to light the led , now what would you have if you use 2 leds in series , or in parallel , would you have the same output?

Also the pulsed circuit is usually hard to determine , since pulse in and pulse out , unless they have the same freq , like in the jt .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 22, 2009, 11:16:34 PM

NO MK1 .. The led is lighting off the 22 turn secondary . I am not measuring it at all . As i said . I am measuring input voltage and current and voltage off the Collector and emmiter as in the circuit i posted in the SSJT thread on page one . I have two wires on that transistor junction . the collector one is running thru a 1n60 . these two wires are what i use to char up a bcap . NOW tell me this is right > if i am pulling 3 milliamps at a lower voltage and outputting a higher ma at a higher voltage is normal ? yes ? forget the led it don't count . Please tell me because this don't sound right to me . Normaly you would get a lower current output than in i thought .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 22, 2009, 11:24:32 PM

@gadget

You are not the first to so those numbers i did my self ...

But lets assume they are wrong ...

So you get the same result with and with out secondary leds ? ok.

i just got a idea what if we make a jt with a Hv secondary connect a at one end and a cap , the cap discharged in it own winding closed circuit , so you would have a HV kick a la tesla on top of the regular kick...

edit I don't really know but , since the jt coil are the same number of turns they are a 1to1 transformer you should have the same amps and voltage ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 22, 2009, 11:35:28 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on December 22, 2009, 11:24:32 PM
@gadget

You are not the first to so those numbers i did my self ...

But lets assume they are wrong ...

So you get the same result with and with out secondary leds ? ok.

i just got a idea what if we make a jt with a Hv secondary connect a at one end and a cap , the cap discharged in it own winding closed circuit , so you would have a HV kick a la tesla on top of the regular kick...

edit I don't really know but , since the jt coil are the same number of turns they are a 1to1 transformer you should have the same amps and voltage ?

Ok then i will assume they are wrong / Its a 1 to 2 design howevber . 11 turn primary and 22 turn secondary . I dont know what i get without teh led as My design requires an led on the secondary to indicate power is on . This led is FULL BRIGHT at 3 millamps 1.2 volts circuit drain but also FULL Bright FEEDING 21 milliamps at over 3 volts out to a bcap . . O thought i had discovered something but this is normal i will forget it .Thank you mark . Merry Christmas ..
Albert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 22, 2009, 11:47:22 PM

@gadget

You get those reading under load bcap connected ?

But really check with out any thing on the secondary i wonder what a regular single diode could do to reduce consumption instead of a led.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 22, 2009, 11:56:07 PM

@ gadgetmall

It is certainly normal to get more voltage across the collector-emitter than the battery voltage. That is what allows the JT to light an LED from a 1.5 volt battery. I have gotten enough voltage to light a neon from a 1.5 volt battery with just the base and collector coils (no added pickuup coil).

It is not normal to get more current out of the collector than is being taken from the battery. I am not sure how you are doing that. Can you post more details about how you are measuring the current?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 23, 2009, 12:07:16 AM

I built a 2 turn base coil, 10 turn collector coil, 150 turn pickup coil JT and tested it wit a 200 ohm base resistor using a 2N3055 and added the results to my chart. From this data it seems to me that after about 150 turns there is no significant increases in output voltage produced by adding more turns to the pickup coil.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on December 23, 2009, 12:27:38 AM

i also notice the same thing and when you get past 270 turns it starts to kill your voltage...
lol.. i went to 732 turns to get only 74 volts,,, so i was like what
unwind 3 layers and boom... 632 volts

oh do we know what diodes tysb3 is using on feedback

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on December 23, 2009, 12:31:11 AM

xee2
like your charts ...pro like you know
reminds me of ross perot.. man i wish i could vote back then....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 23, 2009, 12:39:36 AM

@ kooler

Quote from: kooler on December 23, 2009, 12:27:38 AM
oh do we know what diodes tysb3 is using on feedback

There is not much difference in diodes at low currents, so I think it does not matter what you use. I have looked at his circuit and think it is very clever, but it does not seem like the diode across the base coil is needed. I was tempted to build it just to see. But if you are building one, maybe you can see if removing it makes any difference in performance.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on December 23, 2009, 12:40:30 AM

Quote from: jeanna on December 18, 2009, 07:32:24 PM
Hi xee2,
I like your explanation a lot.
thank you.
---
If I can stretch it even more by thinking of the pulses/sec (= frequency) over the wire substituting for joules/sec(=amps) inside the wire, I think it can help the others who continue to visualize this like a strange dc type circuit.
----

@ArticKnight,
I made my first 2 joule thief circuits ON a magnet as you suggest. I/they worked for a week then stopped.
The magnet had temporarily put the transistor to sleep. I thought it was gone, but some time later after I had taken apart the circuit with the magnet, found it was ok I remember you were there back then, and even made a comment about it.

thank you,

jeanna

well that sux that i dont remember,... but its cool someone tried it! ive got a particular cuircuit thats kinda like gadgets but simpler in design, im seeing how that runs. right now the voltage is dropping dispite the fact the curcuit is forcing a charge cycle. its wierd.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on December 23, 2009, 01:05:26 AM

xee2
i am going to build it... and will do all the test i can to my knowledge.. which isn't far..
but it may be after xmas...
which will be the time i make a video of the circuit i have running two of those lights i told you of....
man i be glad when i don't to work 8-10 hours a day so i can do this stuff more...
i need more sleep

out
robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 23, 2009, 01:13:40 AM

Quote from: xee2 on December 22, 2009, 11:56:07 PM
@ gadgetmall

It is certainly normal to get more voltage across the collector-emitter than the battery voltage. That is what allows the JT to light an LED from a 1.5 volt battery. I have gotten enough voltage to light a neon from a 1.5 volt battery with just the base and collector coils (no added pickuup coil).

It is not normal to get more current out of the collector than is being taken from the battery. I am not sure how you are doing that. Can you post more details about how you are measuring the current?

That is what i thought ! , I don't know how to make it any clearer . If you look at the Jt circuit as i posted and disconnect the bcap an put it in another room and just have the jt on the table , ok . I use two meters , Double ,triple checked them and they are working properly with good batteries . I simply measure the input current across My one ohm resistor to determine what my circuit draws and leave that ammeter going ,ok , then i put another ammeter across the wires that would normally go to my bcap ,which is the other room :) and i let that ammeter measure that connection the result is what you see . It is not normal . I won't say anything else about it , this one is Alex's and he can have a go at it but it appears this is outputting 18 more milliamps and about 2 more volts higher than it is using . I can't explain it but this is what it is doing . I must be going crazy and My eyes and camera and everything must be wrong . I swear this is exactlywhat this jt is doing and so to further test this out before it goies in the morning i put two 30 farad supercaps on it . the run is or was 1.701 and the charged charge cap was 2.000 and i just put a light bulb regulator on it to see what will happen . Of Courase the run cap charged up to equal the charged cap and has stabilized at 2.00 volts for over 15 minutes without a drop . anyways I have no explanation why this exact duplicate of my other Heater Jts is outputting more current and voltage ? No Idea . I am tired . and i am so tired of seeing all these weird things i will put it all in Groundloops hands ,give it to him and let his eyes see what mine are seeing . Have i got some kind of power to make this stuff do what it does ? Has God given me something no one else has ? . Well i will have that question answered when Alex has a look .

Peace and good will is all i ask guys . . Please do not flame me for My Postings . I really do see what i see and i am starting to believe what i see and why only a few can do it bothers me . A lot ! I'm not Crazy i don't think.

Thanks for the response Xee2 . i thought the same thing but i want to know for sure so we will see . I'll ask Alex to post his findings on this Jt and then if he dosnt see it i guess ill trash my equipment , but i really think he will see what i see and i am sure My expensive Fluke is working percectly as i said i swapped both meters and they read the same within a micro amp:)

Merry Christmas

Albert

Albert

Albert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mannix on December 23, 2009, 02:42:52 AM

@gadget

In other devices people have found that 22 turns is magic. I wonder about that in your circuit.

It would be interesting to add or subtract a few turns ..this is not based on any theory.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 23, 2009, 03:53:12 AM

@ All:

I think I finally have my Jeanna Light tuned pretty well over here. I settled on 2 turns on the base, (22 ga. solid wire) around 330 on the pick-up (28 ga. mag wire) and 5 turns on the collector.(22 ga. stranded) I am using a wire wound vr on the base of 25 ohms which gives me enough room to adjust for best light and less singing. I have also added one of my large and very powerful 1" OD X 2" long neos left over from my Jonny Davro one magnet Bedini experiments and this brightens the light a lot and raises the freq. of the singing to where I can't hardly hear it at all.

I got zapped once again and this is putting out some pretty high voltage according to my subjective pain meter located in my finger tips.

I just ran the light for about 2 hours and I find it fascinating that the cfl bulb was not only not hot, it was ice cold...colder than my room temperature. I may try the addition of a trigger coil to the circuit just to see what happens there. One other thing I thought about trying was that, since I am running on 1.5 volts, I think my EER might be able to run this circuit, possibly even without any super caps in the circuit. I may try that on Christmas.

I love this little light!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 23, 2009, 06:06:44 AM

well i can add a few things here ..

i use 3 turns ... total ... jt my leds are bright ...

33ohm resistor...3/8 toroide.. od

there are many things i dont agree with but . we will let it iron its self out lol

IM STARING A NEW THRED ..

THE WJT TRANSFORMER WINDING 101

W J T STANDS FOR WILLIAM JEANNA TESLA TRANSFORMER ... : )

W

this is my 3 turn jt and how bright my 4 ultra brights are ... i CAN NOT GET A CLEAR PIC OF THE LEDS ... THERE TOOOOOOO BRIGHT!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 23, 2009, 06:50:34 AM

Quote from: xee2 on December 23, 2009, 12:39:36 AM
@ kooler

There is not much difference in diodes at low currents, so I think it does not matter what you use. I have looked at his circuit and think it is very clever, but it does not seem like the diode across the base coil is needed. I was tempted to build it just to see. But if you are building one, maybe you can see if removing it makes any difference in performance.

i have bedinis that use this DIODE XEE#2

YES IT HAS A PORPOUS.... lol

shall i tell you ? it recrifies the colpase from the trigger and sends it out with the pulse ....

feed back ? in a managable amount ... yes i know so.... I BLEW UP METERS WITH IT .. on a demo

filled the room with smoke ... well lets just say THERE WAS NO MISSING THAT WE BLEW THE METER ... i used this method a while ago

never EVER BLEW 1 3055 EVER USEING THAT UNIT AND 12DC SUPPLY .... the unit i sopke of was to be sent by boat over seas or was that under seas lol for study ... i never wanted to let it go ....

it was un comoleate ... and rests in the same way i left it ... there was a big ram on for a unit that will charge 6 bateries from 1 ... MINE WILL DO IT WITH EASE ... BUT I NEVER OPENED THAT CAN OF WORMS ... SO WHY SHOULD I FIX RICHARDS BS ... CUZ HE COULD NOT PULL IT OFF....

I WILL NOT .. HE OPENED THAT CAN ... NOT KNOWING HE WOULD BE USEING MY WORK ....

SO THERE IT RESTS .... and as far as i know he still cant control it ...

when you run off to get rich your the fool ... lol

w

btw xee2 diodes play a far larger roll than you realize ... i have covered this in the past ....

@ XEE2

what if the result is this ....?????? hummmm what if useing the diode on the trigger induces this effect ... i will not say it does ... as i never scoped it .. it is quite possible it does ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5FmO55sBAU

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 23, 2009, 07:32:02 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on December 23, 2009, 01:13:40 AM
That is what i thought ! , I don't know how to make it any clearer . If you look at the Jt circuit as i posted and disconnect the bcap an put it in another room and just have the jt on the table , ok . I use two meters , Double ,triple checked them and they are working properly with good batteries . I simply measure the input current across My one ohm resistor to determine what my circuit draws and leave that ammeter going ,ok , then i put another ammeter across the wires that would normally go to my bcap ,which is the other room :) and i let that ammeter measure that connection the result is what you see . It is not normal . I won't say anything else about it , this one is Alex's and he can have a go at it but it appears this is outputting 18 more milliamps and about 2 more volts higher than it is using . I can't explain it but this is what it is doing . I must be going crazy and My eyes and camera and everything must be wrong . I swear this is exactlywhat this jt is doing and so to further test this out before it goies in the morning i put two 30 farad supercaps on it . the run is or was 1.701 and the charged charge cap was 2.000 and i just put a light bulb regulator on it to see what will happen . Of Courase the run cap charged up to equal the charged cap and has stabilized at 2.00 volts for over 15 minutes without a drop . anyways I have no explanation why this exact duplicate of my other Heater Jts is outputting more current and voltage ? No Idea . I am tired . and i am so tired of seeing all these weird things i will put it all in Groundloops hands ,give it to him and let his eyes see what mine are seeing . Have i got some kind of power to make this stuff do what it does ? Has God given me something no one else has ? . Well i will have that question answered when Alex has a look .

Peace and good will is all i ask guys . . Please do not flame me for My Postings . I really do see what i see and i am starting to believe what i see and why only a few can do it bothers me . A lot ! I'm not Crazy i don't think.

Thanks for the response Xee2 . i thought the same thing but i want to know for sure so we will see . I'll ask Alex to post his findings on this Jt and then if he dosnt see it i guess ill trash my equipment , but i really think he will see what i see and i am sure My expensive Fluke is working percectly as i said i swapped both meters and they read the same within a micro amp:)

Merry Christmas

Albert

Albert

Albert

al a special gift was put in your hand my dear sun!

: )

no worries on your eyes bro .. you have special skills ... that is clear lol

did you get any snow .. ? i tryed to pass some your way ... not sure if it made it far enough.. got close tho ... lol

ist!

A CLEAR PIC OF THE ...... IST MINI JT 3 TURN

i should be able to easly tune a secondary to it ... for recharge ... if i do it correctly in winding ... it will be idependent of source ...... la de da ...

use 1 diode and out to cap common ground ... back to source ... free light ? aside the switching cost of the transistor ...

now what about 2 outputs the basic jt light and feed back and seprate recharge .. yikes on a 3/8 od toride ... thease are not super bright leds .. there ULTRA BRIGHTS.... and so they are ...

here are a few more pics of a compleated unit b4 i heat shrink it

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: IotaYodi on December 23, 2009, 10:29:15 AM

Quotethat the cfl bulb was not only not hot, it was ice cold...colder than my room temperature.

I would like to see you remove the Neo and see if it has the same effect. This reminds me of Sweets VTA and the tuning of the magnets on his cold electricity experiments.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 23, 2009, 11:13:45 AM

@ IST

Quote from: innovation_station on December 23, 2009, 06:50:34 AM
i have bedinis that use this DIODE XEE#2

YES IT HAS A PORPOUS.... lol

Thanks. If it gets a big enough pulse to damage a 2N3055 then I would think it could be replaced with an LED and provide additional light. I have never used a diode there and I have never blown a 2N3055. But I never run off 12 volt battery or without a base resistor so maybe that is why I have not needed it.

EDIT: I assume it holds the base volt at about the turn on voltage of the transistor to make the transistor switch with lower changes in current through the base coil.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tysb3 on December 23, 2009, 11:16:20 AM

Hi
after night battary drop voltage from 1.274 to 1.271.
Im stoping this test for better adjustment

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 23, 2009, 11:54:15 AM

@all I made a video last night and finally got it uploaded after 7 hours :) this is that JT that i built for paul but Gave it to Alex instead . MerryChristmas . This is exactly how i measured it and i have no idea why it put out more than in . Alex will have a good time with this one ! calculated just from My little experiment last night with his JT 5 mW in and 75 mW out, that is a COP = 15 No need to replicate we have it under control !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3q2VnPpvKdI

MerryChristmas

Albert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 23, 2009, 12:06:26 PM

Quote from: xee2 on December 23, 2009, 11:13:45 AM
@ IST

Thanks. If it gets a big enough pulse to damage a 2N3055 then I would think it could be replaced with an LED and provide additional light. I have never used a diode there and I have never blown a 2N3055. But I never run off 12 volt battery or without a base resistor so maybe that is why I have not needed it.

EDIT: I assume it holds the base volt at about the turn on voltage of the transistor to make the transistor switch with lower changes in current through the base coil.

@xee2
it is a little trick ... i do reccomend people try it .. seamed to work well for me ..

i have 5w 1k ohm base resistors in place ... with out the diode ... BANG POP BOOM ... go your 3055's try it ...... lol

i made a flash light mod video for everyone ... you will enjoy ... it is simple and will work in ALL LED FLASHLIGHTS as long as button is on bottom and case is alum

this is useing the ist 3 turn mini ... all mods are contained in the battery holder it turns off and on all of it from the factory button .. in other flashlights i have done they require a wire or a 2nd switch ... beat that annoying problem ...

1 aaa and it is really bright ..

thank you

ist

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aq-utyx6IE8

the flashlight showen in this video was built for my SUN SPF! : )

SKYLAR PRESTON FILSINGER

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 23, 2009, 12:22:07 PM

How to test to see if a battery is fully charged.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 23, 2009, 12:38:42 PM

ILL TELL YA HOW TO REALLY RECHARGE EM FROM ANY JT ...

LOL

ill be demoing this soon .. i will use 2 old cel fone batteries ... i will charge them from a jt i will keep them in the unit ... i will bleed off them to a super cap ... and feed the rechargable aa batteries some juice ...

and charge them in a usual way ... and use the usual power ... just needs a shut off and if i ever get luckey to get some more big cores ... this will be a side ... note .. lol

this unit will have a bridge rectifier off the jt to the cell fone batteries ... then i will re bridge from the batteries to the supercap ... as some ripple still comes through this is a good thing .. because ... when i charge the cell fone batteries .. and they are fully charged ... they will over flow to the super cap ... and drive the voltage higher in it .. i have been able to charge celfone batteries in the past no problem and then burn leds normally useing 40 ma or more at 3.7vdc with out lose or depleation from the cell fone bateries INFACT IN SOME CASES THEY WERE CLIMBING IN CHARGE EVEN BURNING THE 3.7VDC 50 MA LOAD ... or what ever it was i for get now that was hundreds of tests ago lol

W

in all the stuff that has been going on in the last few days i forgot to tell you about my cool effect i found lol with my wjt transformer unit ...

o yes it only squeils when i change its orentation ... lol thats all ; ) thats odd i went to video it and it dont do it ... hummm might have been a loose wire ... i will have to try it agin

it was a loose wire .. but ... now i hear a verry faint harmonic ... at a certan angle first i thought cuz i was moveing it too fast but then i found a a spot and i can move it slow and i here 2 diffrent tones ...

verry intresting ..... hummmmm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on December 23, 2009, 01:46:45 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 22, 2009, 06:55:39 PM
@ crowclaw:

Nice job! What are you powering that with? It looks good.

Hi Bill,
It's powered by a single AAA cell, the circuit is as "JT" although the transformer was donated and most probably either from a disposable camera or hand held bank note checker. It was something I through together a long time ago for a laugh and never ceases to amaze... Ha Ha "LOOK NO WIRES"

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 23, 2009, 02:25:24 PM

Quote from: kooler on December 23, 2009, 12:27:38 AM
i also notice the same thing and when you get past 270 turns it starts to kill your voltage...
lol.. i went to 732 turns to get only 74 volts,,, so i was like what
unwind 3 layers and boom... 632 volts

oh do we know what diodes tysb3 is using on feedback

Hi . I had Learned from My test with multilayer coils exactly the same . In actuality only the first layer is the most effective thus if you can wind 600-1000 turns touching the toroid this will produce way more volts than if you would the same amount of turns with say , bigger wire and multilayer . Also if you wind Mk1's style which is wind up then reverse down the wire is still touching the toroid and is considered one layer because the proper way to wind his method is go between each wire thus they are still one layer ! Am i the only one who wound 600 one layer on Jeanna light toroid ? It is Super bright Cfl light with 600 . the next one i will go with number 30 wire and try for 2000 turns single layer ,insulated core with acrylic paint , then coat the coil with clear coat and finally dip in latex rubber .. I noticed no one commented on that Jt Video . I guess it was way too normal and just a waste of my time showing it - : )

Have a holly jolly Christmas !

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on December 23, 2009, 02:29:24 PM

@ gadgett,

Can you draw out a schematic diagram so I can see clearly what you are doing.
@ all
The JT circuits have proved very interesting to experiment with, the results can be unpredictable. You have to juggle with core materials, windings, base resistors and transistor types all of which affect the results. Unless you have oscilloscopes to analyse your results it is difficult to predict a precise outcome or wether the circuits are stable! hence harmonics and frequency spikes reaching into RF frequency spectrum's. All good fun.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 23, 2009, 02:47:16 PM

Gadget:

I left you a comment and 5 stars a few minutes after you posted your video. I did not comment here only because I have no idea why that is doing that. We have been told that you sacrifice amps, mA's for volts right? But your mA's AND volts are both amplified so, I don't know what to say except, nice work.

I think that is fantastic that you can do this.

Merry Christmas

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: markdansie on December 23, 2009, 03:16:20 PM

@Albert (Gadgetmall)
I have a spare portable oscilloscope I am happy to send you (you can keep it). I haven't used it for a while and it is a dual trace. this might help you to measure more accurately or possibly explain when you get some abnormalities. Email me markdansie@bigpond.com and I will post it over.
Kind Regards
mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 23, 2009, 03:47:57 PM

Mark:

You are a good man.

Merry Christmas.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 23, 2009, 03:56:40 PM

Quote from: xee2 on December 22, 2009, 03:03:00 PM
Yes. More current will produce higher output voltage until something saturates.

This was a test of voltage vs turns with everything else constant. Not a test to see how much voltage I could get. The point is that it seems like there is a diminishing return for adding more turns.
...

Hi xee2,
I have been unable to get on here since broli's post yesterday!

I think his reminder about the transistor is useful and yours too.
In my experiments I always keep things the same and move one thing at a time. I know you know this.

Last week I took that big gold that had the original wind of 3T,13T and changed it to 2T,10T like yours and gained a lot of volts from the same transistor/core arrangement.
Then after testing all day, I removed one Turn at a time from the collector wire. (so from 10T to 9T then tested)
The pickup volts went up by about 300v per removed turn. This continued to about 6 turns, and when I removed the next one things went bad. I forget now what I was using to see, but it was visual. 5T stopped or slowed down the results.

So, what I am saying here is that there is a range.
V:T of collector,
900V:10T
1200V:9T
1500V:8T
(I put the scope away at this point, but continued to remove collector turns.)

You are the one who showed me that fewer collector turns made the pickup volts go up. .. to a point this is true.

I am not sure now what has happened, but I am thinking I might have hurt a transistor or 2. At first I thought the breadboard was hurt, and maybe it was, but I cannot get anything from the equivalent cores and winds any more.

I wasted a lot of time trying to make it work as before, but I will see if there are more transistors at RS. Otherwise I need to wait for an order to arrive.

(now, I will keep reading.)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 23, 2009, 04:26:29 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on December 23, 2009, 03:56:40 PM
V:T of collector,
900V:10T
1200V:9T
1500V:8T

Wow. You almost doubled your voltage. Great info, thanks. I think we are narrowing in on the best combinations. I wll try some of these on the 150 turn pickup coil. Then I want to try kooler's two toroid circuit. I hope RS has some transistors for you.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 23, 2009, 04:36:08 PM

@all

Just a reminder !

It lowers everything but you can load each core at it own voltage , that is if you keep the four secondaries isolated.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 23, 2009, 04:38:22 PM

I want to add a little to the question gadget has asked about both volts and amps going up together.

I have mentioned this a few times but maybe this is the best time to re-state it.

At the moment of the high backspike, which happens at the C-E as well as the pickup the math goes to infinity. It goes to a place where the rules are different.
It is not possible in a mechanical world to have infinitely short time so the dt in faraday's equation which goes to infinitely short has no meaning.
It can be done with ohm's law too, but either way the amps are also there for the same infinitely small time as the volts are.
We can say that I=E/R
The R is the wires and stays the same. If R-1ohm then when V=600V, then I= 600A

If this is so, the question becomes where do all the amps go?
How do we catch them and use them? .....

So, the rules are different.
It is not true that an amp is electrons, but we use that because it is convenient.
It is a rate of joules per second going past a slit in the window.
That is what the frequency of backspikes is too.

A rate of joules per second going from N to S or from S to N is still joules per second.
So the frequency is an indirect substitute for amps. Watch it go down as you use the circuit.
Once everything is tuned and going fine, then
Use the same pulse again by adding a series inductor.
The volts will go up again as the new inductor makes a new or higher spike.
Then as you use this by adding some lights, the frequency will go down.

So gadget,
I am glad you are making so much effort to show this.
That you can show it on a meter is great because all the educated folks love the meters.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 23, 2009, 05:33:58 PM

remember last year ? what the f@#$

it was the dark of the moon and it christmas was soon and only a day away ...

the DOT {department of tesla } was crakeing down and the toys had been deleayed
but we were stuck in a drift at the old north pole ... with 8 mighty anksisous raindeer ( where might that b ?)

if santa didnt get some help .. WELL THEN christmas would not come this year.....

yep santas crazyside up !! : )

a red green inquired for chicken lights .... lol

WE GOTTA CHRISTMAS CONVOY THIS AINT NO SILENT NIGHT!!!!!!

the big al blew the doors off HIS 8 RAINDEER POWER RIDE .. LOVE YA AL !

he flew on past the bears den in georgia over drive ..! went on the black eyes up ahead they proved to be a pinch!

a bear a cadeing road block had been set up by the grinch!

there were teddy bears cars and trucks and toys of every size ...
terering out the top of santas ride ... santa would not back him up no matter what the cost ... cuz if he let that old grinch stop us this years christmas would be lost!

HAMMER DOWN SANTA CLAWS IS COMEING TO TOWN! 10-4 14 ; )

THIS AINT NO SILENT NIGHT ! JINGLE BELLS AND CHRISTMAS LIGHTS!

W

catch the dubble yellow kooler ?

; )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xG-xkKIN30

I had to add this video cuz it fits ....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJZsw0JgNyk&feature=related

CHUGG A LUGGG LUGG 555 MILES AN HOUR IN
MY INTERNATONIAL HARVESTER!

! AM

H

TY

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on December 23, 2009, 06:09:20 PM

Nice one IST I'm in the Christmas spirit now lol

;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 23, 2009, 06:28:12 PM

How about we make some throwies?
I love the free speech movement that calls itself graffiti.
(it must be some italian ancestor ;D )
So, I laughed out loud and really want to make some of these.
You do not use the superbrights but you use the older kind that has a foggy bulb so you can look right at them.

Enjoy!
http://graffitiresearchlab.com/?page_id=6#video (http://graffitiresearchlab.com/?page_id=6#video)

There is another video where they are drawing on buildings using laser lights. Oh I love it!

jeanna

A christmas throwie that wishes all a merry one...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 23, 2009, 06:52:38 PM

Well this doesn't make sense. My test results go the opposite way from jeanna's.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 23, 2009, 07:03:22 PM

@xee

I see one or two problems with your data . First the diode limit is 1000v after that they are unreliable .

Second , you use fix resistor value , i usually use a pot to find the highest voltage or current depending on the test .

So if i change anything , i re tune it , the battery goes down same thing.

Those are my observation .

Mark

@jeanna

What is the wire size you use on the jt tested.

Same question for Xee

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 23, 2009, 07:21:32 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on December 23, 2009, 07:03:22 PM
@jeanna

What is the wire size you use on the jt tested.

On the
big Gold
2T,7-10T
That wire was 24 awg

The 330T of gold was 26awg which I bought from gobrushless.
It is the same size as the green wire from RS.
======

@xee2,
You are right that is very strange.
I bet it is the transistor.
I remember you told me to look to the transistor once and last week I had a few different kinds of transistors and just changed nothing but that element and the difference was hundreds of volts and thousands of hz,
the transistors were:
2N3904
TIP31
TIP31C
TIP3055

The little one was the low one.
It also used many fewer mA
Which is why I think the transistor is what is determining the amps draw, and not the wires.

So, if there is no other way to read your output but through a diode cap arrangement you will be limited in your test results.
You may have the results but not be able to show it.
I wonder how well the cfl goes on when you have the 2T6T which I never even tried to scope.

thank you,

RS had another TIP31 and TIP3055. I bought both.
My volts are up from 39v to 111v on the new transistor, but the other day this gave me 350v and I cannot believe my eyes. :o

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 23, 2009, 07:23:14 PM

@ Mk1

Quote from: Mk1 on December 23, 2009, 07:03:22 PM
@xee

I see one or two problems with your data . First the diode limit is 1000v after that they are unreliable .

Second , you use fix resistor value , i usually use a pot to find the highest voltage or current depending on the test .

So if i change anything , i re tune it , the battery goes down same thing.

Those are my observation .

Mark

@jeanna

What is the wire size you use on the jt tested.

Same question for Xee

All wire is #26. There are actually 2 diodes in series.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 23, 2009, 07:27:35 PM

Quote from: xee2 on December 23, 2009, 07:23:14 PM
@ Mk1

All wire is #26. There are actually 2 diodes in series.

thank for the clarification , There is still the fix resistor value i wonder about jeanna?

Also i have to say i don't like 26 on the jt side , i always use 22 it works so much better , i don't know it its the size or insulation making a space between the wire and the toroid .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 23, 2009, 07:30:49 PM

i was gonna make this post earlyer but i for got but j's words triggered it agin ... \

ok j i do agree ... transistor deturmans ma draw ... that is clear with my toys too
i think what may need to be done is match a pulse coil with ma draw... kinda like impeidance matching .. 4 ohm amp 4 ohm speeker! ya know what i mean ?

so if transistor draws 20ma you want a coil that only handles 20ma at any freq...

just another thought ... maybe use a 12vdc relay coil ... i may try that in a bit ... if it was a bifilar coil i would find a feroite bar and 2 week magnets and do the KOOLERIZATION TO IT ...

it would look like a pair of glasses for the eyes... lol

ist!

http://liberty92.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/smaller-anders-with-google-glasses.jpg

lol

google glasses !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 23, 2009, 07:31:58 PM

@ jeanna

The cfl will light, it only needs about 500 volts and all of these circuits are putting our more than that. I did happen to test 2B-6C-250P and cfl lit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 23, 2009, 07:53:24 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on December 23, 2009, 07:27:35 PM
thank for the clarification , There is still the fix resistor value i wonder about jeanna?

Also i have to say i don't like 26 on the jt side , i always use 22 it works so much better , i don't know it its the size or insulation making a space between the wire and the toroid .

Mark

I understand that when you want to know the highest possible volts from the number of turns that you must change the resistor.
But
If you are wanting to learn the effect of the number of turns on this toroid to the volts you must keep the resistor the same.

Then when you find the best numbers of turns you do a test and find the resistance that works best on this toroid with this permeability.
It makes it more than too confusing to change more than one thing at a time.
So, I say it must be done in separate steps.

About the wire gauge,
the 22 awg you get from RS comes with the extra thick varnish.
The 26awg from RS comes with a thinner varnish but not as thin as the 30awg.

The gobrushless 25awg comes with the thick varnish like the 22 awg from RS.
It is actually hard to scrape it off.

I recommend the newby wire (what it is called) because it has the thick insulation and also because it comes in 3 colors so you can use the same thickness and distinguish them from each other.

This is a worthy discussion.
Is anybody else making these tests?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 23, 2009, 07:57:58 PM

Quote from: xee2 on December 23, 2009, 07:31:58 PM
@ jeanna

The cfl will light, it only needs about 500 volts and all of these circuits are putting our more than that. I did happen to test 2B-6C-250P and cfl lit.

Yes, I realize this, but if you want to turn on a higher wattage cfl or a fat tube, you will need a higher voltage so you can use these bulbs as a kind of indicator light. So, that is why I asked.

thank you,

jeanna

edit

@ist

Quote
ok j i do agree ... transistor deturmans ma draw ... that is clear with my toys too
i think what may need to be done is match a pulse coil with ma draw... kinda like impeidance matching .. 4 ohm amp 4 ohm speeker! ya know what i mean ?

so if transistor draws 20ma you want a coil that only handles 20ma at any freq...

Thanks for verifying this, ist.

I do not know how to match these things.
I do not know what to look for, or what tools to use in testing.
Can you or anybody explain?

thanks

j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 23, 2009, 08:12:22 PM

Quote from: markdansie on December 23, 2009, 03:16:20 PM
@Albert (Gadgetmall)
I have a spare portable oscilloscope I am happy to send you (you can keep it). I haven't used it for a while and it is a dual trace. this might help you to measure more accurately or possibly explain when you get some abnormalities. Email me markdansie@bigpond.com and I will post it over.
Kind Regards
mark

MY Gosh . You are one of the kindest person i don't even know but I know i like you and will say a prayer for you and yours blessing your for thinking of me . No Thank you I have a scope . I haven't even unpacked it since i bought it . (Shame on me ) I don't know what to do with it as i am already tuned in on most of these devices . I have always had a Gift . This sounds crazy but everyone calls me when something is wrong and 80% of the time all i have to do is touch it and it works . i know you think I'm a nut . I would too but it has happened over the last 20 years or so and i swear to you people call me for Miles and miles away and trust no-one else to work on there stuff . From Tv's ,satellites ,radios ,computers anything electronic I can fix . Even appliances ,refrigerators ,washingmachines , Toys , you name it . I have several Gifts and one of them is being able to read people if i see them . I can see aura's Some are white some are blue and some are rainbow and some are red and some people don't have one . My cousin has the same gift . we can see the exact same aura around people .It was amazing to have a person beside you and say look at this person can you tell me what color his aura is , she said rainbow I saw it before she said it and we sit there in church and say that person has a white one and some have extremely bright auras .. I can also say that most people here that work with there hands and enjoy electronics experiment all have gift . I bet you 90% of all you experimenter play some type of musical instrument like i do . Bet ya ! Its a fact i can feel it and as i said mos of us are very talented and we are a special breed of people much like "HEROS". Here is My Digital Storage Scope . During My life i have had 5 Scopes . I still have two in the Barn . I got them when i was around 8 years old . a man put them out for trash and i asked if i could have them and he said take them home and before i did he took them in the house and showed me how to use them . They Still work , but they are old and tube type .. one is very heave and the other is tiny :) What do you want to me to measure with them ?
Albert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 23, 2009, 08:20:15 PM

Jeanna:

I have been testing, thanks to your input. I agree with Mark only because when I made my collector adjustments, I saw that I had to adjust my vr. When I started with 13 turns on the collector, 25 ohms was perfect on the vr. Then, I reduced it turn by turn and the light got brighter and brighter but, I had to adjust to 45 ohms for the best output. Now I am down to 5 turns and the light is good and bright but, get this, I am back to 25 ohms on the vr!!! (Plus I added that very strong neo)

I see your point, and Xee2's as well. We can't go about changing more than one parameter at a time if we are going to fully understand these circuits. So, with that thought in mind, I agree with both of you.

I do want to add that my tests are not valid for comparison as I have 2 toroids stacked together. I am sure this changes a thing or two. My next circuit will be with a single large toroid and I will get better measurements as well.

One thing Jim helped me with is that when I could not get a good scope shot of what was going on in my Jeanna Light circuit, he said that maybe my freq. was above what my scope could handle. Since it is lower now, I will try again.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 23, 2009, 08:25:12 PM

this is a pic for everyone .... my google glasses ... lol

notice the core that i will make a jt ... it is a split feroite core .. i will try gold mines ... i will also sub from MANY PRE WOUND CORES .. might even pull out the tuned caps for the coils lol

see how it goes ... come on now i have 1000's vhf tuned cap and coil combos for 5mhz - 1ghz ... lol

1kv too ;) lol i have a few cascade block locks ... so i could go 1 million volt if i wanted from a aa ... i dont see why you cant ...

with the blocking cap cascade it fills to desired runing voltage and only looses 5% per push ... so this means it takes only 5% to replenish ... and you still have the runing voltage and amparage of choise ... so basically the cascade is only charged the first time .. then only last cap drains .. thus you only flick it it is full agin ...

smile and if you play that game be wize ... 1 bite could be all you get ..... !

ist!

last pic just cuz kool wasent kool enough ....

btw my wjt transformer unit off the aa recharge side does charge 12vdc gels and no voltage drop ...
i turned it off a while ago ... voltage has not leaked out ... i used a 3vdc supply on it tho ... the higher in charge the battery gets the higher the freq of my coil i hear it play a tune for me as it charges ... so a 2 buck solar a ubc this unit ... AND CHARGE ALL THE CAR BATTERIES YOU WANT FOR EVER FOR FREE... DUH! LOL THE MORE I ADD THE FASTER IT RUNS ... LOL

SAME SAME ...

; )

ohoohhhohhhhh looks like santa needs to fill up his cup ... lol

im building 12vdc battery charger boards ... basic i on it right now ...

i will include all parts and materials

if you dont want to wind a J COIL OR A TRANSFORMER i will provide the part number of the

transformer im useing ... buy it pre wound!

thank you!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on December 23, 2009, 09:03:13 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on December 23, 2009, 08:25:12 PM
this is a pic for everyone .... my google glasses ... lol

notice the core that i will make a jt ... it is a split feroite core .. i will try gold mines ... i will also sub from MANY PRE WOUND CORES .. might even pull out the tuned caps for the coils lol

see how it goes ... come on now i have 1000's vhf tuned cap and coil combos for 5mhz - 1ghz ... lol

1kv too ;) lol i have a few cascade block locks ... so i could go 1 million volt if i wanted from a aa ... i dont see why you cant ...

with the blocking cap cascade it fills to desired runing voltage and only looses 5% per push ... so this means it takes only 5% to replenish ... and you still have the runing voltage and amparage of choise ... so basically the cascade is only charged the first time .. then only last cap drains .. thus you only flick it it is full agin ...

smile and if you play that game be wize ... 1 bite could be all you get ..... !

ist!

last pic just cuz kool wasent kool enough ....

IST

WHat direction are the poles on your magnets

I have been planning an experment that might be similar

I was going to stick 2 magnets on on toroid
one magnet was to have the north pole against the toroid the other magnet would have the south pole touching

I would add another toroid to the ends of the magnets
A primary would go in the original coils .......... secondarys would go on the other toroids

There might need to be a few winds over the magnet to make sure the flux flows properly

The test is to see if magnetic flux has polarity
If it does ........ I should see some degree of rectification across the secondarys

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 23, 2009, 09:32:59 PM

merry christmas gary im missing ya!

we need to figure out what we need to block the mag flux on top of the neo ... then just use the neo flux ... and only use the transistor to block neo flux .. and allow fast flow through of neo flux upon reconnect!

cant wate to see your work bro !

all the best !

H

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on December 23, 2009, 09:48:01 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on December 23, 2009, 07:30:49 PM
i was gonna make this post earlyer but i for got but j's words triggered it agin ... \

ok j i do agree ... transistor deturmans ma draw ... that is clear with my toys too
i think what may need to be done is match a pulse coil with ma draw... kinda like impeidance matching .. 4 ohm amp 4 ohm speeker! ya know what i mean ?

so if transistor draws 20ma you want a coil that only handles 20ma at any freq...

just another thought ... maybe use a 12vdc relay coil ... i may try that in a bit ... if it was a bifilar coil i would find a feroite bar and 2 week magnets and do the KOOLERIZATION TO IT ...

it would look like a pair of glasses for the eyes... lol

ist!

http://liberty92.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/smaller-anders-with-google-glasses.jpg

lol

google glasses !

@all,

I was thinking of using a mosfet, then I wondered how I would control the voltage and thus the ON position.. as would be done with a transistor, then I wonder how much voltage is ACTUALLY getting to the base of the transistor on account of the flyback.

Does anyone know what's going on with this area between the initial part of the circuit and the base ...doesn't this voltage spike during flyback beyond the normal voltage of the input? Isn't this reasonable to assume; as a result, isn't this the reason we can put 10k of resistance prior to the base and still have it turn on?

I wonder these things because I want to use a mosfet, and do away with the current which is leaking from base to emitter.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on December 23, 2009, 10:19:15 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on December 23, 2009, 09:32:59 PM
merry christmas gary im missing ya!

we need to figure out what we need to block the mag flux on top of the neo ... then just use the neo flux ... and only use the transistor to block neo flux .. and allow fast flow through of neo flux upon reconnect!

cant wate to see your work bro !

all the best !

H

IST

I used to have alink for a video that showed something like you taked about
He had a block of metal with a big Neo on onre end
He lifted up a good sized piece of metal with the end opposite of the Neo
He then stuck a much smaller magnet on the side of the original block of metal .......the piece of metal that he was holding up immediately fell.
A relatively small mag field in a mangnetic conductor can interupt a much larger field.
A bifilar winding on your ferrite bars with one winding driven by a JT should pulse the mag field of the magnets .
The other winding could be used to pick up the flyback

Didn't you work on a 3 phase JT a while back?
With a large magnet and 3 ferrite bars and coils pulsed with proper timing ........ and you got half a magnetic motor.
The rotor could be all magnetic ......... there are lots of options

`1````````````````````````````

I have been playing with my candycane coils and looking for ways to charge Ucaps

I am about to stop one test and try another coil
I measured the voltage over 3 hours
I am charging 4 650F boostcaps in parallel
I have a little feedback working in this circuit
Most of it is flyback.
The 4 boostcaps went up .036V
My battery went down .01V
I got lots of things to try
I am sure I can do better

I will post some details once I find out a few more details.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on December 23, 2009, 10:21:24 PM

You can use a mosfet and the primary current will be down to the amount of capacitance between the gate and the mosfet substrate. Again and again the hardworking people here are reconfirming Faradays research. The rate of change of the magnetic density about a conductor determines the emf created in that conductor. If we study Tesla's work he reconfirmed this again and again. He blew out the plasma real fast in his motorized gaps. If you want highvoltage do a Tesla Coil. Turn it into an electromagnetic heat pump. A while back when you could have signatures mine was a spark gap is cold space is a hot liquid. Here's my Christmas post. You guys are great experimenters. May your new trip around the Sun be your best yet.

The trick is the rate of change. The selfinduction part of the impedance of a coil isnt a problem because this is the phenomenon that is being exploited. The sparkgap is of course in the middle of it all. This is where the conversion begins. Did you know that you can create a very nice refridgerator using magnetic fields. Tesla runs over meets Kelvin runs over and meets Crookes. Kelvin is into cold Crookes is into plasma. The magnetic field causes a compression of the aether. Upon relaxation of the magnetic field the aether expands. Upon expansion thermal energy flows into the field. Upon compression it flows out of the field. Conversion of thermal energy into electrical energy. No ands ifs or buts about it. Stars are magnetically selfconfined plasmas. Magnetically self confined plasma has a negative specific heat. This was proven a while back by the hot fusion scientists and buried real fast.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 23, 2009, 10:37:03 PM

mosfets ya say ... ya dont say ... in the NEWER RF AMPS I HAVE they did away with the chip timmer ... hummm they replaced it with a sencer or a toroide 1 wire trigger sencer ... here the pics

jt ? hummmmm o i think so

ist

last pic is a timer chip driven mosfet unit ...

the ones b4 jt style units ...

so i just pulled out another wjt transformer for my 12vdc battery charger .. i was thinking of hooking up a DUMMY TRANSFORMER along with the pulse primary on this unit ...

what ya think ... i have the wjt ... i will just run the primary of it through another primary on another transformer .. no need for trigger coils ... lol just the 1 ... how many you think i can chain togather ... hummmmm

lol

i could chain on pulse side as well as flyback side .... getting really christmas now eh?! lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on December 23, 2009, 10:46:15 PM

Quote from: sparks on December 23, 2009, 10:21:24 PM
You can use a mosfet and the primary current will be down to the amount of capacitance between the gate and the mosfet substrate. Again and again the hardworking people here are reconfirming Faradays research. The rate of change of the magnetic density about a conductor determines the emf created in that conductor. If we study Tesla's work he reconfirmed this again and again. He blew out the plasma real fast in his motorized gaps. If you want highvoltage do a Tesla Coil. Turn it into an electromagnetic heat pump. A while back when you could have signatures mine was a spark gap is cold space is a hot liquid. Here's my Christmas post. You guys are great experimenters. May your new trip around the Sun be your best yet.

The trick is the rate of change. The selfinduction part of the impedance of a coil isnt a problem because this is the phenomenon that is being exploited. The sparkgap is of course in the middle of it all. This is where the conversion begins. Did you know that you can create a very nice refridgerator using magnetic fields. Tesla runs over meets Kelvin runs over and meets Crookes. Kelvin is into cold Crookes is into plasma. The magnetic field causes a compression of the aether. Upon relaxation of the magnetic field the aether expands. Upon expansion thermal energy flows into the field. Upon compression it flows out of the field. Conversion of thermal energy into electrical energy. No ands ifs or buts about it. Stars are magnetically selfconfined plasmas. Magnetically self confined plasma has a negative specific heat. This was proven a while back by the hot fusion scientists and buried real fast.

Sparks

Do you have any links for that magnetic cooling?
It sounds interesting

I am not suprised that the negative temp thing got buried
The formula for doing a scientific study now seems to be something like
Include every fact you find that supports your employers agenda no matter how trivia.
Exclude any fact you find that does not support your employers agenda .........no matter how important it is.

The skeptics here seem to use this same kind of reasoning

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on December 23, 2009, 11:06:37 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on December 23, 2009, 10:19:15 PM
IST

I used to have alink for a video that showed something like you taked about
He had a block of metal with a big Neo on onre end
He lifted up a good sized piece of metal with the end opposite of the Neo
He then stuck a much smaller magnet on the side of the original block of metal .......the piece of metal that he was holding up immediately fell.
A relatively small mag field in a mangnetic conductor can interupt a much larger field.
A bifilar winding on your ferrite bars with one winding driven by a JT should pulse the mag field of the magnets .
The other winding could be used to pick up the flyback

Didn't you work on a 3 phase JT a while back?
With a large magnet and 3 ferrite bars and coils pulsed with proper timing ........ and you got half a magnetic motor.
The rotor could be all magnetic ......... there are lots of options

...

gary

Your observations are interesting with regard to field compression. DO you have any additional links. I was thinking of a sort of block wall compression JTC, but haven't been able to wind a working toroid in ages. Things have been working like crap lately with my breadboard.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on December 23, 2009, 11:28:04 PM

The phenomenon is called the magnetocaloric effect.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on December 24, 2009, 01:31:06 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on December 23, 2009, 11:06:37 PM
Your observations are interesting with regard to field compression. DO you have any additional links. I was thinking of a sort of block wall compression JTC, but haven't been able to wind a working toroid in ages. Things have been working like crap lately with my breadboard.

Jadero

I gave up breadboards a couple months after I started building .......it was like the wires stayed were they were suposed to ........until I I needed them to stay ........then watch out .......one bad connection after another

Now I have a whole handful of alligator clip leads
They are not perfect and the circuits are a mess compared to a bread board........but I get alot more done.

````````````````````````

I do not have any links about my ideas for magnetic flux.
I have been letting my basic theorys simmer in the back of my mind for a few years
I have tried a few times to build something but all my attempts have fallen short
I hope to try working on the flux thing soon
My primary goal is to make an inductive spark gap........ in order to bre able to create small controlled disruptive discharges.

The idea is to create a gap that the flux has problems jumping .

I am thinking of using a big toroid or U cores
With the primary and secondary at 12 and 6 oclock....... ( as compact as possible )
I would add magnets on each side of the core at 3 and 9 oclock
Cutting slots for the magnets might make it possible to use smaller magnets.

If it works as I hope .......each pulse the flux will build up on the primary side unti it is strong enough to jump......
As soon as it jumps the magnetic field will try to
"quench " the flow ...... just like a magneticly quenched spark gap.
It should guarantee a very high rate of change.

The only bad thing I see about it ........the flux will jump at the same power level each time . This circuit would not work well in a situation where you had to work over a wide range of power.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on December 24, 2009, 01:51:17 AM

Tesla had the same problem so he motorized his spark gaps. As current increases in the inductors the series motor speeds up and draws out the plasma. This allows it to become more susceptible to the magnetic blow out produced by the motor coils magnetic fields. Guys were getting overunity awhile back doing pulse motors and using reed swithces laid up on the stator of the motors. Tesla homebrew motorized spark gap. The motor mechanical power is bonus energy so tesla loaded her down with a fan that pushes fresh air into the gap and the plasma is excited by the unionized atoms and reverts back into an insulating gas. Gases can be looked upon as electromagnetically stimulated plasma.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 24, 2009, 04:10:51 AM

how many diffrent voltage rectified feeds can i get from 1 colpase trigger wire ... this is off the BASE CONNECTION ... how many

answer i now have 5 from that 1 wire alone ...

voltages are

15 vdc
13 vdc
14.25 vdc
5.12 vdc
7.75 vdc

ist

xee2 try it .... lol

looks like i can get around 7 or 8 diffrent feed voltages from .. 1 trigger colpase feed ... if this is correct i can get the same from the pulse wire ... lol that then is 14 diffrent voltage mesurements .. from 14 diffrent locations from 2 colpase wires ... then there is the single secondary ... lol

peace .. i will continue tommorow

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 24, 2009, 10:46:43 AM

For those who have not seen it, broli posted a great circuit that could be used for something like the joule thief to see if it can be self-running,

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8411.msg216551#msg216551

Someone else comment that the battery simply drains. If anyone finds a JT circuit that is cop>1, then please let me know.

BTW, received my goldmine toroids, so today I'll be doing a 100% replication of gadgets circuit. Cross your fingers. ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 24, 2009, 11:37:11 AM

Don't know what to call this JT ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3q2VnPpvKdI
unless i am measuring current wrong .This readings are 3 ma in and 21 ma out ! Same way everyone else measures it . this appears as a unique JT . unlike any i have made before ..
Its sent out now and i tried to make a copy of it using the exact same parts last night .it will not do the same as that one ? the only difference is parts placement . I do not get more out than in on the exact replication of my own design . The problem is parts placement i do believe . Or the Transistor gains are different from part to part .I also did not have another wirewound 1 ohm so i measured the new one in series with the battery
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on December 24, 2009, 11:49:13 AM

The geometry of a circuit relying on parasitic capacitance is of the utmost importance. Its your information feedback mechanism. John Hutchinson built himself a scaler wave inferometer. He would sometimes have to wait six hours for the device to start receiving and converting. There is now evidence that the longitudinal waves created on a regular basis due to the magnetohydrodynamic conditions on the Sun are of an extremely low frequency. Six hour frequencies. But riding the six hour long electromagnetic field change are shitloads of other frequencies that are conveyed by these massive waves.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Tink on December 24, 2009, 11:56:16 AM

Gadgetmall,

Can it be that you hit resonance in your Joule-thief?
That would explain the strange Amp-readings you get.
Please watch this youtube movie from Tortuga0303, it is called "Energy Propagation" and goes about resonance in LC circuits;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQdcwDCBoNY&feature=channel

Thanks for sharing your findings!

A Merry Christmas to you and your family, and by this I also want to wish all other members of this forum a Merry Christmas.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 24, 2009, 12:07:19 PM

Merry Christmas ! . You know i don't know . I just had a thought . the Black 1 ohm resistor ! Its WIREWOUND and so its a coil in it self . A piece of wire around a ceramic body . this might cause the effect you describe above and the effect i am seeing ..It is extremal aggravating that i had it and now i cant do it again :) . I will have to find a supplier for those big 1 ohm resistors .

Albert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 24, 2009, 12:11:53 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on December 24, 2009, 11:37:11 AM
Don't know what to call this JT ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3q2VnPpvKdI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3q2VnPpvKdI)
unless i am measuring current wrong .This readings are 3 ma in and 21 ma out ! Same way everyone else measures it . this appears as a unique JT . unlike any i have made before ..
Its sent out now and i tried to make a copy of it using the exact same parts last night .it will not do the same as that one ? the only difference is parts placement . I do not get more out than in on the exact replication of my own design . The problem is parts placement i do believe . Or the Transistor gains are different from part to part .I also did not have another wirewound 1 ohm so i measured the new one in series with the battery
Gadget

Good start, but you need to find out what's going on with one of your meter readings because it shows output at ~ 21mA @ 2.1V, which comes to ~ 100 ohms. That can't be correct because that meter in current mode is supposed to have low resistance.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Tink on December 24, 2009, 12:23:27 PM

Gadgetmall,

I get the impression you didn't watch the movie, I think you should because it explains the OU effects of resonance in LC circuits.
Maybe you somehow created a similar circuit around the basic Joule-thief by accident.
What I mean to say is that it looks like your circuit is indeed OU.
Please have a look at the movie I gave you a link to.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on December 24, 2009, 12:37:15 PM

@tink

NICE

Resonance is right there in your bifilar windings folks. The capacitance of the lc tank is right there due to the geometry of the bifilar windings. Energy from the past accumulates in energy of the now. Grumpy explained this in the past many times. As did Tesla. As you swing a hammer you are storing the conditions of the past energy disbursement which creates reality into a timeless inertial frame. When it pops back out into the new time snapshot of energy it has been amplified by hiding out independent of time. A little gets radiated by the friction of the air but it is minimal. When you allow it to pop back into the now stuff starts happening in the energy domain at tremendous velocities because the spacetime continoum itself is trying to rectify the excessive energy entering it's time. Where did all this energy come from. The past of course.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 24, 2009, 12:37:19 PM

? It read the same on both meters swapped . Also all current was done on Dc settings . The one showing 21.88 milliamps is a fluke meter set on Dc amps in the 300milliamp hole . I found a supplier but has a 100 part min order so i'll keep looking .
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-Dale/RW67V1R0B12/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMuQ5%2fsBR7SoAsgb9Zkfwd140SoGinADYIY%3d

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 24, 2009, 12:57:32 PM

here is a picture of the unit i made last night

i have 5 wired feeds from just trigger colpase .. also useing other places of tap to compleate the circuit .. i can add more ..

each wire has its own reading ... i have not done this to the pulse wire yet .. nor the transformer secondary

i can take all readings with out effecting the operation of the unit .. all tests were done useing 1.5vdc source ..

thank you

w

btw .... i drop a cam cap on it ... 29 volts right away ... short it .. 29 volts right away .... lol

that was only 1 feed .... hummmmmm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on December 24, 2009, 01:06:15 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on December 24, 2009, 12:37:19 PM
? It read the same on both meters swapped . Also all current was done on Dc settings . The one showing 21.88 milliamps is a fluke meter set on Dc amps in the 300milliamp hole . I found a supplier but has a 100 part min order so i'll keep looking .
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-Dale/RW67V1R0B12/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMuQ5%2fsBR7SoAsgb9Zkfwd140SoGinADYIY%3d

The signal coming off of the jt is more of an AC wave or pulsed DC. If you want to measure it as an DC current value, I think you would need to rectify the output first.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 24, 2009, 01:14:01 PM

Like I said, there's something wrong with gadgetmalls meter readings. That kind of Fluke meter (e.g., Fluke model 27) has ~ 5.6 ohms input resistance in mA current mode, not 100 ohms.

If you get bad measurements then put it on the scope. All I see is something definitely wrong with the measurements. The scope will always save the day.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 24, 2009, 01:22:23 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on December 24, 2009, 11:37:11 AM
... this appears as a unique JT . unlike any i have made before ..
................ i tried to make a copy of it using the exact same parts last night .it will not do the same as that one ? the only difference is parts placement . I do not get more out than in on the exact replication of my own design . The problem is...
Gadget

Hi Gadget,
There is another difference that I can see.

In the one you sent out I see a 12 or maybe 11 turn inductor wire which appears to be coming out of the toroid.

Did you "clean this up?"
I do not see it on the new one.
I believe this would add significantly to the output of your circuit even if it is not on the secondary, wherever it is if it is getting pulses, it is converting them to higher volts.

I am referring to the tight spiral on the upper right of pic 1 and I see no such thing on the pic2 same but different one.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on December 24, 2009, 01:23:06 PM

Quote from: PaulLowrance on December 24, 2009, 01:14:01 PM
Like I said, there's something wrong with gadgetmalls meter readings. That kind of Fluke meter (e.g., Fluke model 27) has ~ 5.6 ohms input resistance in mA current mode, not 100 ohms.

If you get bad measurements then put it on the scope. All I see is something definitely wrong with the measurements. The scope will always save the day.

Agreed.

Also, I know a lot of people don't agree with me that the secondary should have a load on it to take measurements. It's like Xee's post showing that you need to put a load on a battery to actually test it. The secondary winding falls under the same category.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 24, 2009, 01:26:32 PM

Quote from: MrMag on December 24, 2009, 01:23:06 PM
Agreed.

Also, I know a lot of people don't agree with me that the secondary should have a load on it to take measurements

The reason I do not agree with that for measuring anything on the primary, is that empirically the amps draw diminishes when there is a load put on the secondary.

And I do agree that the scope is the way to know what is happening.
thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 24, 2009, 01:31:30 PM

Quote from: MrMag on December 24, 2009, 01:23:06 PM
Agreed.

Also, I know a lot of people don't agree with me that the secondary should have a load on it to take measurements. It's like Xee's post showing that you need to put a load on a battery to actually test it. The secondary winding falls under the same category.

That's a good point, there should be a proper load, or use the scope. Don't dump the toroid energy into the poor meter. :( Who knows what issues that will cause. The Fluke meter gives maximum voltage* for the mA current mode, and also significant spikes might cause error readings. Put the bcap0650 on the output. It can be charged to say 1.3 volts.

Otherwise get that beautiful scope out!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 24, 2009, 01:41:11 PM

@all

My theory is that the led on the secondary , feeds back in the coil, that creates a kick , that kick is reabsorbed by the jt coil , lowering the battery draw...

With a load on the jt like the b cap , Gadget already gave those reading ...

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on December 24, 2009, 02:00:09 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on December 24, 2009, 01:41:11 PM
@all

My theory is that the led on the secondary , feeds back in the coil, that creates a kick , that kick is reabsorbed by the jt coil , lowering the battery draw...

With a load on the jt like the b cap , Gadget already gave those reading ...

Mark

I think your right. It would be the same as a shorted secondary winding. I think it would build up with some voltage and then discharge itself back through the torroid. I would amagine depending on how it was wound, it could have an additive or detrimental effect on the jt circuit. Once I get my bench cleaned off I think I'll try that out.

@Paul,

That is a beautiful scope isn't it. I have a couple myself but they are not storage scopes :(

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 24, 2009, 02:09:58 PM

5 FEEDS 1 COLPASE TRIGGER WIRE ONLY ~~TAPED~~ PULSE COLPASE WILL GET THE SAME TREATMENT NEXT THEN THE SECONDARY .... OOOO MY MY LOL ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9ZT12BC8_8

thank you

regards!

H

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 24, 2009, 02:10:56 PM

@ gadgetmall

Quote from: gadgetmall on December 24, 2009, 12:37:19 PM
? It read the same on both meters swapped . Also all current was done on Dc settings . The one showing 21.88 milliamps is a fluke meter set on Dc amps in the 300milliamp hole . I found a supplier but has a 100 part min order so i'll keep looking .
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-Dale/RW67V1R0B12/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMuQ5%2fsBR7SoAsgb9Zkfwd140SoGinADYIY%3d

Hi Gadget. Merry Christmas. As I said previously, I do not understand how you are getting higher current out of the JT than you are putting in. But, I do know that all of the meters you are using to measure the current are only made to measure constant currents and constant voltages (not pulsed voltages and pulsed currents). So they may, or may not, be giving accurate readings on the pulsed power coming out of the JT.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 24, 2009, 02:17:29 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on December 24, 2009, 01:41:11 PM

My theory is that the led on the secondary , feeds back in the coil, that creates a kick , that kick is reabsorbed by the jt coil , lowering the battery draw...

Mark

This is interesting .
I have been setting up to test this today.
I have been wondering if the choking effect I had yesterday and xee2 had 2 days ago is related.
I have been thinking there needs to be enough bare toroid surrounding the primary that the oscillations are not countered by the oscillations of the secondary.
I was wondering if there is a critical amount of physical space for the oscillations to rev up.
It seems that if I squeeze the wound secondary over itself to get it away from the primary wires the voltage goes up to a better reading.
It is still not as high as the one that went into the 19leds bulb... (but maybe this will teach me something!)

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 24, 2009, 02:31:44 PM

hope you all get the idea ...

lol

on to the next one im bord of this one already

next unit is a BIG UNIT useing THE WJT TRANSFORMER ... or THE J COIL ... same thing ...

but j's is tuned for volts .... and MINE FOR AMPS .... anyhow .. im just useing it as a supply ..

so i can bang at large power plus many feeds .. all capped and all taped in the next unit plus the modulated out put of HUGE SPIKES as per my scope ...

THE ONLY TIME THE CAPS WILL BE EFFECTED IS WHEN I MODULATE THE SECONDARY... and even then ... the thing will likely only work better lol

love you all

merry christmas as we phase in THE NEW GOLDEN AGE!

W815H

in the peterbuilt sleigh modle lol i will do away with the battery as a supply and go to a 12vdc step down transformer .. unit .. designed for cars .... this WILL SIMPLY PLUGG INTO MY BOOST ULTRA CAP BANK .. TO CLOSE THE LOOP AND MAKE IT A SELF CONTAINED UNIT ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 24, 2009, 02:32:28 PM

@all

I imagine making a resonating circuit , feeding back the base coil ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 24, 2009, 02:50:51 PM

I WISH I COULD QUIT CHANGEING MY MIND ...

tooo many things to build

b4 that unit ... i will build this one ... im on it now ..

this is for gary!

youll love it ..

i have a bunch of multi tap transformers ... if i can find 4 or 5 the same ... i will chain them as a jt ... 1 master unit ... that is set for keeping pace .. and 4 units only useing 1 coil per transformer ...

all rest are OUTPUTS...

smile

ist!

looks like i have 7 of them the exact same each has 10 or 11 tappable wires and i m sure i could tap just as i have showen above ... 5 plus feeds ... / yikes ..

i will start basic ... first ..

if i want more power to bang with i will add more banging 3055's synced with the master one .. just like i did wit the transformers ..

here is a picture of them

im takeing them out and remounting them to 1 unit

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on December 24, 2009, 03:03:28 PM

@Gadget.

Further to jeanna noting the difference in your toroid winding configuration...I noticed the components were not situated in the same locations proximal to the toroid.

Given the unknown potential of the j/t, that may be relevant...along with the + or neg pole being nearest the toroid.

And of course the composition of each individual toroid.

And I would like to wish a Merry 'everything' to everyone !

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on December 24, 2009, 03:18:08 PM

Hi Gadget see this video about self resonating circuit. It's nearly the same as JT circuit.
This was invented by Alexander Meissner in 1913 that's what written on this video.
Interesting see this guys:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru8YQ6HUwbU

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 24, 2009, 03:26:30 PM

@ IST

Adding base coil diode does not change performance for me.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 24, 2009, 04:27:47 PM

Quote from: xee2 on December 24, 2009, 03:26:30 PM
@ IST

Adding base coil diode does not change performance for me.

thats good news then ... : )

here is a pic of the 7 units all ready to mount

ist!

i will pick coils of lowest resistance and coils of highest resistance ... chain as 1 jt off the master unit

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on December 24, 2009, 06:34:55 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on December 24, 2009, 02:50:51 PM

this is for gary!

youll love it ..

i have a bunch of multi tap transformers ... if i can find 4 or 5 the same ... i will chain them as a jt ... 1 master unit ... that is set for keeping pace .. and 4 units only useing 1 coil per transformer ...

all rest are OUTPUTS...

smile

ist!

looks like i have 7 of them the exact same each has 10 or 11 tappable wires and i m sure i could tap just as i have showen above ... 5 plus feeds ... / yikes ..

i will start basic ... first ..

if i want more power to bang with i will add more banging 3055's synced with the master one .. just like i did wit the transformers ..

here is a picture of them

im takeing them out and remounting them to 1 unit

IST

I look forward to seeing what you come up with

:)

I have used a few transformers as JTs ......some work very well.
I have also used the to split the current in order to send part of it back to source as feedback

Making a chain of identical transformers is a cool idea.......

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 24, 2009, 06:50:03 PM

here is a base i will mount the thing on ... and i have not decided how many bangers i need yet but i have a bunch the next picture is my air core 6 pac unit 1 k i will use it as a parts unit for the transformer board

this is an easy build power supply

thank you gary! :) you gonna like this then ... lol i want to drive this exact power board from a gadget mall solar and boost ultra cap lol

william!

hey soul sister !! train

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DrX8AFIQao

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 24, 2009, 07:04:01 PM

@all

this is a steon replication , it relates to the research we are doing here ,

The toroid is not influencing the hall sensor ( magnetic sensor generates current in presence mag field) it could mean the magnetic is locked inside the toroid , or it is something else all together ...

Second the motor get his torque from the kick ...

Mark

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HT6KdUECEqE

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 24, 2009, 07:35:05 PM

Mark:

That video was very interesting. No field outside the coil. Good to know.

Thanks,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on December 24, 2009, 08:23:31 PM

It also occurred to me that it may be possible for the coil to actually draw from without...thought I'd mention it, in case it was relevant.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 24, 2009, 08:58:06 PM

Quote from: Tink on December 24, 2009, 12:23:27 PM
Gadgetmall,

I get the impression you didn't watch the movie, I think you should because it explains the OU effects of resonance in LC circuits.
Maybe you somehow created a similar circuit around the basic Joule-thief by accident.
What I mean to say is that it looks like your circuit is indeed OU.
Please have a look at the movie I gave you a link to.

Hey Tink . Merry Christmas . No i did look at it . actually i am on dial up and its easer for me to download them then watch it so i was downloading when i was typing . Sial up really .Sucks . I wish santa would give me High Speed :) . THe proble i have with the video is i used the same windings but different parts placment and i ommited the 1 ohm wire wound . I will never know until i get another resistor like that on e. this time i will put the parts in the exact same locations . The positive of my first coil was short and went straight to the battery where the negitive of the battery went thru the resistor ? anyways it wa fun and thank you for the Vid . It makes perfect since to me but why me :) And the other problem i have is if all the meters that read milliamps are wrong reading transistor current . All i was reading was the Ec junction and not a secondary . and the second one read Under unity which make me think the first reading was correct . any way . Merry Christmas I hope everyone is warm . I got home tonight and had no gas ,no heat ,, cold .. The dang gas man forgot about me so i will have to freeze with My baby girl tonight and wait until tomorrow for some dang propane ! Its ok because i can imagine Our lord being born in a cold Stable this time of year and so i can suffer one night and not complain . At least we have lights and hot Chocolate and that is more than he had .
May the Night Bring you all peace ,comfort and Joy .
good Night

Albert !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on December 24, 2009, 10:31:17 PM

CAPZRO

Google the Aharanov-Brohm effect. It was mathmatically proven by solutions to Einsteins equations and is now experimentally proven. Rotating inertial frames create gravity. They warp the vacuum state and stuff falls into it including free electrons on the skin of a wire. We are constantly falling towards the center of the Earth. Because the plasma core is spinning like there is no tomorrow. The stuff way down there is spinning so fast it's angular momentum aka it's electrical charge is very positive. Once inside the core you dont feel the spin because you are spinning right along with it. You will feel the charge though exerted by all the mass spinning at a different frequency on the surface due to the surface rotating a thousand miles an hour compared to the core which is probably rotating at millions.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 24, 2009, 10:39:31 PM

Quote from: MrMag on December 24, 2009, 01:06:15 PM
The signal coming off of the jt is more of an AC wave or pulsed DC. If you want to measure it as an DC current value, I think you would need to rectify the output first.

it is rectified . The diagram states a 1n60 on the collector .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 24, 2009, 10:57:23 PM

Quote from: jeanna on December 24, 2009, 01:22:23 PM
Hi Gadget,
There is another difference that I can see.

In the one you sent out I see a 12 or maybe 11 turn inductor wire which appears to be coming out of the toroid.

Did you "clean this up?"
I do not see it on the new one.
I believe this would add significantly to the output of your circuit even if it is not on the secondary, wherever it is if it is getting pulses, it is converting them to higher volts.

I am referring to the tight spiral on the upper right of pic 1 and I see no such thing on the pic2 same but different one.

jeanna

Well they both have the same wire and same turns 11 on the primary and a spread out 22 turn secondary . Oh i see what you are saying ,No that is an extra part(smally copper coil) laying beside it (messy workarea :) It's not part of that JT :) :) The placment of the toroids made the wires pull different directions . . As far as the meters they are correct and both read the same swapped . There will always be a SHUNT in an ampmeter . A Shunt is a load resistor in parallel with the leads . Regardless if the meter is analog or digital . It is obvious as the meter is a near dead short on the JT . On the first jt the light is just lit a bit with the ampmeter across the Ec but the second one Goes Completly OUT !

Any who Alex will test it . I already did my part and i have an independent Owner who can test it to his hearts content : -)

Thans jeanna for seein one primary is a bit spread out and the other is not .
Merry Christmas Jeanna and everyone Have peace.

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 24, 2009, 11:16:04 PM

Quote from: PaulLowrance on December 24, 2009, 01:14:01 PM
Like I said, there's something wrong with gadgetmalls meter readings. That kind of Fluke meter (e.g., Fluke model 27) has ~ 5.6 ohms input resistance in mA current mode, not 100 ohms.

If you get bad measurements then put it on the scope. All I see is something definitely wrong with the measurements. The scope will always save the day.

You are Correct about the resistance It is exactly 5.6 OHMS across the shunt . Near Dead Short in the 300ma scale . But it is accurate to 300 milliams . How can you say it it is wrong if Fluke Build the meter to measure 300 ma in that spot . All meters don't have 100 ohm resistors you know .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 24, 2009, 11:47:00 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on December 24, 2009, 11:16:04 PM
You are Correct about the resistance It is exactly 5.6 OHMS across the shunt . Near Dead Short in the 300ma scale . But it is accurate to 300 milliams . How can you say it it is wrong if Fluke Build the meter to measure 300 ma in that spot .

But your measurements show the Fluke having ~ 100 ohms, when we know it really has 5.6 ohms, so somethings wrong. It's very possible the Fluke is expecting only DC without any AC. Try connecting your fluke (while in DC milliamp mode) to an AC generator (no DC) to see if you fool it into thinking there's DC.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on December 24, 2009, 11:56:08 PM

The resistor inside the meter is creating a voltage drop assuming you are feeding it at least filtered dc. You are not. You are pumping it with dc ripple. Load that thing down with an incandescent light bulb and measure the brightness and temperature of the bulb. Compared to a bulb in the feed from the battery. Lets moveon.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 24, 2009, 11:56:50 PM

I see what your saying now. Is there any other way other than a scope to measure the true current from the rectified transistor? For instance use a bridge instead of one diode ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 24, 2009, 11:58:08 PM

put on your seat belt cuz when you see what the heck i have come up with

you may just have a heart attack!

im not kidding ... looks like 30 plus feeds ... lol 13 transistors 6 transformers .. those are only secondaries .. you know i got everything just laying around ...

gary i will use feroite cores in newer modles ... could even use yoke cores ...

smile!

ist!

1 oscolator the WJT TRANSFORMER... controls 12 worker transistors ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 24, 2009, 11:59:35 PM

Merry Christmas IST ! Its santa time here .12 .. She is Asleep ,, I think. Left cookies and now sour milk for the poor man :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on December 25, 2009, 12:08:34 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on December 24, 2009, 10:39:31 PM
it is rectified . The diagram states a 1n60 on the collector .

Maybe I didn't explain it good enough. What I meant was to rectify the output or secondary winding, then take the DC current reading. The current reading through the 1 ohm resister on the primary side is probably correct.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 25, 2009, 12:09:56 AM

Quote from: sparks on December 24, 2009, 11:56:08 PM
The resistor inside the meter is creating a voltage drop assuming you are feeding it at least filtered dc. You are not. You are pumping it with dc ripple. Load that thing down with an incandescent light bulb and measure the brightness and temperature of the bulb. Compared to a bulb in the feed from the battery. Lets moveon.

I understand sparks . It wont light a bulb or at least one i have,heat mesurment your implying . . But i understand that it is still dc ripple . BUT if i were to put a Bridge on it will it still be ripple dc ? or will it be pure dc ?and if its pure dc then will an digital meter read the output correctly ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 25, 2009, 12:13:30 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on December 24, 2009, 11:56:50 PM
I see what your saying now. Is there any other way other than a scope to measure the true current from the rectified transistor? For instance use a bridge instead of one diode ?

One cheap method is to place a large cap (ultracap) of say a few hundred milli farads or larger across the fluke and give it lot of time to reach equilibrium. The ultracap will absorb the AC, and after it's all equalized the meter will conduct the DC. The ultracap should not cause any resonance issues because of it's high capacitance.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 25, 2009, 12:15:00 AM

Yes Mrmags . Merry Christmas . no i understood . IF you take a transistor and the emmiter is negitive and the collector is rectified like i have it ,with a diode on it then i am measuring from the negitive emmiter to the anode of the diode . This was supposed to be DC , and it is but it was explained to me that is still has a ripple . So anyone trying to read the current output of a Jt transistor cannot get the proper reading with a DVM in amps mode ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 25, 2009, 12:16:52 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on December 24, 2009, 11:59:35 PM
Merry Christmas IST ! Its santa time here .12 .. She is Asleep ,, I think. Left cookies and now sour milk for the poor man :)

lol

well

it is santa time here aswell

here ya go ...

NO HEART ATACKS!

merry christmas!

HO HO HO !

H

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 25, 2009, 12:21:51 AM

IST, what are you doing, building a JT space ship? :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 25, 2009, 12:29:46 AM

Quote from: PaulLowrance on December 25, 2009, 12:21:51 AM
IST, what are you doing, building a JT space ship? :)

naw ... just an EER OR EB AMP or solar amp or well call it what ever you want !

lol

i CALL IT A HAPPY NEW YEAR !

: )

321... ITS A PARTY IN THE USA!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M11SvDtPBhA

W

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 25, 2009, 12:54:39 AM

Well it will be Christmas here in 8 minutes so....

Merry Christmas to everyone here on our topic and on this site.

May all your LEDs be bright.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on December 25, 2009, 01:12:09 AM

A bridge rectifier is used if the output is ac. I dont believe you have ac coming out of the jt. You really need an oscilliscope to look at the type voltage you are putting out.They arent cheap so that is why I suggested the bulbs. The incandescent bulb actually emits infrared emwave energy that stimulates argon gas into emitting visible light em waves. But for true power readings you need to measure the magnetic field flux changes around the resistor also. You can see how complicated this begins to get. The argon gas doesnt convert all the infrared so now you need to do caloric analyses of the output also.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 25, 2009, 01:15:36 AM

@all

Merry Christmas everyone ! And love on earth !

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on December 25, 2009, 03:15:41 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on December 25, 2009, 01:15:36 AM
@all

Merry Christmas everyone ! And love on earth !

Mark

The day has come! Merry Christmas! Soon to be a new you. ( all of you )!

It's nice to read productive posts lately, much is being said.

Quote from: PaulLowrance on December 24, 2009, 11:47:00 PM
But your measurements show the Fluke having ~ 100 ohms, when we know it really has 5.6 ohms, so somethings wrong. It's very possible the Fluke is expecting only DC without any AC. Try connecting your fluke (while in DC milliamp mode) to an AC generator (no DC) to see if you fool it into thinking there's DC.

I've posted here:http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8523.msg217299#msg217299 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8523.msg217299#msg217299)...you may find it interesting, if you want to help or anyone else for that matter.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on December 25, 2009, 07:40:49 AM

Thanks for your advice 'sparks'...at some point I may accumulate enough knowledge to go off and try something wacky again.

Will google 'Aharanov-Brohm effect' for later review this eve.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 25, 2009, 12:45:32 PM

1 spark starts a fire ...

here is a wonderful gift .. for this world upon this day! FOR NOW ON!

now fully unwrapped!

enjoy!

HORUS ; )

take the 2n2222a jt basic... take a mosfet ...rectify from basic .. modulate from fet! use fet ou put!

thank you

any questions pm me !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 25, 2009, 12:49:07 PM

Quote from: sparks on December 25, 2009, 01:12:09 AM
A bridge rectifier is used if the output is ac. I don't believe you have ac coming out of the jt. You really need an oscilloscope to look at the type voltage you are putting out.
...

Hi sparks.
This is one of the more interesting things about the already interesting joule thief.

The primary is called bifilar but it is really a center tapped coil. If the center is off center you will get an unevenness in the wave.
This carries over to the secondary too.
In some of mine the wave is centered and in some of them it is almost all above the x axis.
Most of the time it is about 30%,70% above or below the x axis.

I think it is an area where there are not adequate words because this particular study is new (because it is continuing from the 1800's before the electric oscilloscope was in use. ;) )

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 25, 2009, 01:04:10 PM

THANK YOU MOM I LOVE YOU ISIS
DAD I LOVE YOU TOO ! : )

H

YOUR SUN!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 25, 2009, 01:49:08 PM

I had a christmas eve success which I want to share with all of you.
I found that my biggest problem I was having was the battery holder, but the battery was broken too and I am still not sure about that winding, so I started fresh.

I used a tor-61 which is 0.86 inch = less than 1 inch OD
!!!!
I made sure I had enough secondary wire. I lost count as always but it is probably about 110 turns on the secondary [where the one that can't get above 144v is about 85 turns, well, I put that away, and it does light a modified 19leds bulb.]

So, again, the new one has
2T,9T,110T
TIP31 from RS
25r at base
and...

600-730v

wow!!! this is a very little toroid!!!
Last night I tried it out with some real lights and it lit:

a neon,
a15w 18" growlight tube
It actually made light happen in the fat growlight tube that is 20w, - not much more than a glow, however it stayed on unassisted by my hand.
It would only light half of the cfl. - even the 10w lit only half.

Then I tried it on an unmodified 19led bulb from LoA and folks, it is at full brightness.
---

Today I took apart the 25wcfl to try on the jeanna's light.
As you will see, I can now finish the lidmotor's jeanna's light box lamp.

This morning, I took some pix.

So, merry christmas from me to you. :D

jeanna

ps captions say what they are.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 25, 2009, 01:58:29 PM

Jeanna:

That is wonderful, and all off the small toroid...incredible. I have a question for you: How do you wind 110 turns on that small toroid? Do you have a single layer or is there any overlap or multiple layers? I can't even get half that on a full 1" OD toroid single layer with 28 ga. wire.

So when you finish your light will we call it Jeanna's Jeanna Light? Or Jeanna's Lidmotor Jeanna Light replication? This may get complicated, ha ha.

I may try to wind a single large toroid today with a lot less on the pick-up coil and see what happens. I still have about 10 TIP 3055's left so I might as well start putting them to use.

I am looking forward to your Jeanna's Jeanna Light video.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 25, 2009, 02:29:51 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 25, 2009, 01:58:29 PM
That is wonderful, and all off the small toroid...incredible.
... How do you wind 110 turns on that small toroid? Do you have a single layer or is there any overlap or multiple layers? I can't even get half that on a full 1" OD toroid single layer with 28 ga. wire.

Or Jeanna's Lidmotor Jeanna Light replication? This may get complicated, ha ha.

;D ;D
I spelled it all out, then lidmotor called it JLJL ;)

Here is a detail shot.
There are 3 toroids to the side.
2 are the tor-23 with 84T secondary
The lower red one is a tor-61 that won't get above 145v. It is OK because that will light the modified 19leds bulb just fine.

The green one in the circuit is the christmas surprise that gets such a high voltage. (I will have to name it something with 5 letters)
On the surface of the toroid, there is enough room for 85 or so turns along with the 10 or so from the primary.
I wound the yellow string around each side of the primary to keep the primary separate and to keep it tight. (I am thinking both those things matter.)

So, beyond the 85T I just kept winding. A while ago I learned that as long as I have as much as possible on the toroid itself - remembering to give the toroid some room to breathe, then it is OK to wind more over the first layer.
Another thing that may help is sometimes there is a little space on the outside between the first layer wires, and when I see a slot of room like this, I pull this extra layer wire into the slot without disturbing the lower layer.

I made a nice description of how to wind this MK1-jeanna Hybrid way on the energetic forum. I will find it and copy it here in a few minutes.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: MK1JeannaHybrid description
Post by: jeanna on December 25, 2009, 02:54:40 PM

Here is the description in its own separate post.
Perhaps anyone interested should copy the text and keep it for reference.

===========

This secondary is something I derived from using the MK1 style, which I have always liked a lot.
I was thinking of 3 phase one day and wondered if I used 3 directions of winds (which is the MK1) and made each segment a multiple or maybe exponent of the first, if I could get 3 phase.

The answer to that was no.

But, what I did get was about twice the voltage from the same number of turns.
I must say I have had really high volts before, but they required a very specific set of elements (to be at resonance) and would quickly degrade and the effect would be gone.
So, one of my criteria is that the bandwidth be wide enough to take a change without much loss.

So, to make this secondary which has a total 84T.

This number is divided by 7, so 12T go into each segment. Or, x=12
You will always wind (turn) around the toroid the same way but your progression will change.

Start a little to the left of center and wind 12T progressing to the left (actually 13 turns to give you 12 spaces.)
Proceed to the right carefully placing each turn into the 12 spaces. Continue 12 more turns to the right (again add one).
On this final lap you carefully wind 4 turns in each of the 12 spaces.

So, you end up in the center. You can keep the extra 2 or take them off, but I keep them because I usually lose count anyway.

On the big golden toroid (JLJL) I made x=30T but instead of 4T in each space of the final lap, I used 8T ... for a total of 330T for my secondary. Wow, I put the scope away at 1400volts!

(MK1jeannaHybrid)

I hope this helps.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tysb3 on December 25, 2009, 11:11:05 PM

Hi
somebody try to connect cap to base coil ?
cap bright up led with high value of base resistor.
I think with cap we can reduce base curent.
in picture it is what I test.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 25, 2009, 11:32:07 PM

comeing up next is the tip 122 and 127 matched pair ... npn pnp gain 1000 each !

how many you want ?

lol

http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/TI%2FTIP122.pdf
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/TI%2FTIP127.pdf

any ways i went full 18 3055's on my last board .. ill add pics in the next few days

im removing the high teck darlenting npn and pnp pairs .. and remounting .. then i will make some identical j coils .. and feed em seperatly and reconnect along the way!

w

here are a few pics ..
last one HANDS UP THERE PLAYING MY SONG!

THROW YA HANDS UP! PUT EM IN THE AIR ! ROCKING WITH ME LIKE YOU JUST DONT CARE !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3omJHqx2bo

H!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 25, 2009, 11:45:07 PM

@ tysb3

Quote from: tysb3 on December 25, 2009, 11:11:05 PM
Hi
somebody try to connect cap to base coil ?
cap bright up led with high value of base resistor.
I think with cap we can reduce base curent.
in picture it is what I test.

Yes. Quite a few posts about this a long time ago. I do not think we ever figured out exactly what the capacitor was doing (due to lack of scopes). But the results were higher CE output voltage at lower currents. Doesn't seem to help much when using a pickup coil (3rd coil).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on December 26, 2009, 08:14:19 AM

I was wondering, here, if since we use voltage to primarily light a CFL, ..wouldn't it be interesting to fix a twist bulb in acrylic, so that a constant thermal gradient can be held.

I'm thinking that a large component of the light emissions may be sustained by the current producing additional heat, and therefor a heat insulated CFL would produce more light if it were thermally insulated. Perhaps this clear version would move heat transfer away from the glass tube

Just a thought.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 26, 2009, 09:25:39 AM

also in the triple crown units there is a tip 47

http://www.datasheetarchive.com/TIP47-datasheet.html

this is npn higher voltage ... should make a good modulator ...

if we can get the output to its working range and increase current to its working range ...

your set! i think we want to work within the transistor and diode limits ... so as not to have any problems of things blowing up !

w

i did the pnp... too with MY WJT ... WORKS FINE AS SHOWEN ... if you want to tap with the 5 feeds from trigger colpase .. simply flip diodes ..

only mod to the npn is the flip of polarity ...

my next 3055 board will be 9 npn and 9 pnp ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on December 26, 2009, 09:46:49 AM

Hi guys anybody have bought a Ucap cause I'm trying to put a little charge in it and nothing is coming back ??? I tried a bedini motor to it but still no charge back.
Any help please?
Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 26, 2009, 10:18:44 AM

Quote from: sparks on December 25, 2009, 01:12:09 AMA bridge rectifier is used if the output is ac. I dont believe you have ac coming out of the jt.

All JT circuits I've seen have AC. A bridge rectifier is not going to do it. Pulsed DC has both DC & AC. You'll need a filter to remove most of the AC.

Quote from: sparks on December 25, 2009, 01:12:09 AMYou really need an oscilliscope to look at the type voltage you are putting out.They arent cheap so that is why I suggested the bulbs. The incandescent bulb actually emits infrared emwave energy that stimulates argon gas into emitting visible light em waves. But for true power readings you need to measure the magnetic field flux changes around the resistor also. You can see how complicated this begins to get. The argon gas doesnt convert all the infrared so now you need to do caloric analyses of the output also.

Or you can simplify it by using a super or ultra cap instead of a bulb, and suddenly your measurements become easy since it becomes all about DC measurements.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 26, 2009, 10:21:36 AM

did i hear someone say we need a dubble 808 808 ..... OOOOWWWWEEEEE DOGGGIE!

opposed triggreing ... yikes ... UFO! LOL

IST'S D 808 G

LOVE YA !

H

YOU SEE THE KIDS WANTED ... me to have a ufo for christmas ... thank you sky ali lauren and logan!

and now a PICTURE TO FIT THE OCCASION ..

the SUN DISC!

you see i have a FEW POUNDS OF MU METAL... anyone smelter ? i need foil ... lol then ill make MY SUN MIRROR ... LOL

got the switches for my HOVER BOARD .... GOT A TONNE OF SUN CIRCLES LOL ; )

http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/mcdavey/pics/sundisk.jpg

LAST pic staff note* dirrection of heads...... hummmmm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on December 26, 2009, 11:28:56 AM

Quote from: guruji on December 26, 2009, 09:46:49 AM
Hi guys anybody have bought a Ucap cause I'm trying to put a little charge in it and nothing is coming back ??? I tried a bedini motor to it but still no charge back.
Any help please?
Thanks

I can't say I have the answer but I may have part if it.

When lighting LEDs with a JT you can often light them will mostly voltage and little curent

I would describe this as " soft " power.
Soft power works great for LEDs but not so good for Ucaps.
With soft power you light the LEDs with voltage much higher than normal .
I have used up to 250V to light an array that was originally 84V

I would suggest that you you make a LED array for the voltage you want to work with .
Tune your circuit to light the LED array at full brightness at NORMAL voltage ........that way you will be working with normal power not soft power.

hope this helps

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 26, 2009, 03:10:08 PM

Quote from: PaulLowrance on December 26, 2009, 10:18:44 AM
All JT circuits I've seen have AC. A bridge rectifier is not going to do it. Pulsed DC has both DC & AC. You'll need a filter to remove most of the AC.

Or you can simplify it by using a super or ultra cap instead of a bulb, and suddenly your measurements become easy since it becomes all about DC measurements.

Of course they would become almost zero as well. And nolonger show what the output is.
[Or is that why you said it? Were you being sarcastic?]

But it seems that you do not understand what is happening here.

In a joule thief with a secondary the pulses occur over time which is the same as ac but not sinusoidal.
At the C-E junction it is all pulsed dc.
After all there are 2 diodes if you look at the C-E as a kind of diode itself.

The last thing in the world you want to do in a joule thief is remove the pulses.
That is all there is.

jeanna

Quote from: guruji on December 26, 2009, 09:46:49 AM
Hi guys anybody have bought a Ucap cause I'm trying to put a little charge in it and nothing is coming back ???

I have not had much either.

I got 0.34v from the 0.8v passing through my earth battery.
Later, I got it up to about 0.9v at the C-E junction at the expense of my secondary staying on.
I can probably add a series inductor to the secondary and have it work, but it is quite an accomplishment to have both work at the same time... so hats off to gadget's success.

edit... oops I forgot to say I never did put that second diode there, which is why I never posted this. I have not really replicated it properly.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 26, 2009, 03:23:30 PM

Quote from: tysb3 on December 25, 2009, 11:11:05 PM
Hi
somebody try to connect cap to base coil ?
cap bright up led with high value of base resistor.
I think with cap we can reduce base curent.
in picture it is what I test.

Hi tysb3,
I am posting an old reply I made to test this.

It is dense with information and needs study, but it was an accurate test for what you are asking.
The results are taken from the secondary(pickup) wires.
I hope this helps you.

EDIT
oops that was testing the effect of the base cap (that is what we named this ) on the pickup secondary volts.

The next 2 pix are tables that show different ampsdraw using different caps.
btw
101= 100pF
102=1000pF
103=10000pF
104=100000pF

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 26, 2009, 04:30:42 PM

@ kooler

How to get more power.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 26, 2009, 05:04:51 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on December 26, 2009, 08:14:19 AM
I was wondering, here, if since we use voltage to primarily light a CFL, ..wouldn't it be interesting to fix a twist bulb in acrylic, so that a constant thermal gradient can be held.

I'm thinking that a large component of the light emissions may be sustained by the current producing additional heat, and therefor a heat insulated CFL would produce more light if it were thermally insulated. Perhaps this clear version would move heat transfer away from the glass tube

Just a thought.

I'm doing Just that with a spiral cfl . I will encase it in a casing of liquid lucite . I was doing this to potect the bulb from brakage but i guess it will serve insulation as well . . I'll show it when i complete the jeanna light . Mine will have a screw in connector so i can change different bulbs

Also i was Given the proper way to measute Ce output current with the diode . Simply put a resistor across that junction say a 1 or 100 ohm resistor and then measure the current . It will be darn close !

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 26, 2009, 05:56:11 PM

Quote from: xee2 on December 26, 2009, 04:30:42 PM
@ kooler

How to get more power.

Xee2,
Did you wind them separately?
I am thinking about the recent winds that shared the same primary... I think kooler made one of these?

Anyway, did you ?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 26, 2009, 06:14:28 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on December 26, 2009, 05:56:11 PM
Xee2,
Did you wind them separately?
I am thinking about the recent winds that shared the same primary... I think kooler made one of these?

Anyway, did you ?

thank you,

jeanna

Yes. Two cores. Two separate JT.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 26, 2009, 09:47:31 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on December 25, 2009, 11:32:07 PM
comeing up next is the tip 122 and 127 matched pair ... npn pnp gain 1000 each !

how many you want ?

lol

http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/TI%2FTIP122.pdf
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/TI%2FTIP127.pdf

any ways i went full 18 3055's on my last board .. ill add pics in the next few days

im removing the high teck darlenting npn and pnp pairs .. and remounting .. then i will make some identical j coils .. and feed em seperatly and reconnect along the way!

w

here are a few pics ..
last one HANDS UP THERE PLAYING MY SONG!

THROW YA HANDS UP! PUT EM IN THE AIR ! ROCKING WITH ME LIKE YOU JUST DONT CARE !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3omJHqx2bo

H!

Nice !. Why is us inventors are so talented yet we don't show our faces :) is it becuase we are Vain or is it becuase we think others will Shun us or is it becuase we are afraid . I choose the last one . I save your Pics William :) thanks for the present !

HAPPY NEW YEAR !!!!!! It will be a very new year and age for all mankind . to seek out and explore new free energy sources and i believe with this help of every one here it will bedone. On earth as it is in Heaven !

a little star trek and God is all we need .

Albert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 26, 2009, 10:11:20 PM

@ kooler

I ran a test on an ignition coil with a 0.7 ohm primary. Circuit and video attached. The problem with the low resistance is that I can not use big capacigtors or I will overload the SCR with too much current. Thus no big sparks. Perhaps you have some suggestions.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on December 26, 2009, 10:45:45 PM

xee2
i have used two of these cap together for 6uf for a higher current spark
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G12714 (http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G12714)
but for the lenth.. as far as i can get with a good steady hz is 1'' sparks
no current just volts...
as for my scr i have even used the mcr-106-8 and haven't even got it to heat up any if with a 150uf cap
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=A20205 (http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=A20205)
its a little one..
i will have to build the circuit you show and see whats going on....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on December 26, 2009, 11:21:36 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on December 26, 2009, 05:04:51 PM
I'm doing Just that with a spiral cfl . I will encase it in a casing of liquid lucite . I was doing this to potect the bulb from brakage but i guess it will serve insulation as well . . I'll show it when i complete the jeanna light . Mine will have a screw in connector so i can change different bulbs

Also i was Given the proper way to measute Ce output current with the diode . Simply put a resistor across that junction say a 1 or 100 ohm resistor and then measure the current . It will be darn close !

Gadget

Very interesting, I look forward to the developments ..maybe there will be a noticeable difference in light output?

Quote from: xee2 on December 26, 2009, 04:30:42 PM
@ kooler

How to get more power.

I was wondering if the toroids get electromagnetically coupled? ..are they placed perpendicular to one another, or are the linear?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 27, 2009, 12:17:23 AM

Hi everybody,

I have been trying out different light fixtures for the latest high voltage "xmass" toroid.
It is so perfect as a light and even more perfect for use with the rheostat, but this funny thing is happening.

Since I can screw the unmodified bulb into the base of the fixture all I need to do is attach the secondary wires to the switch of the fixture.

WRONG.

There appears to be significant HV leakage.
Those lights are glowing very dimly right through the turned off switch.
They glow a bit brighter if I touch the bulb.
I am sure this is because of the nature of HiVoltage-Hi frequency (727v, 6.5KHz), but I will need to attach the battery to the switch as usual and solder the secondary to the screw base to get around this...IF it will even get around it.

This is a commercial UL tested light fixture new from the store. So, there is not a question about it being old and wire weary.

Anyway, I thought this was interesting enough to mention it.

@Gadget and Jadaro, I will be very interested to see if you can get warmth from these even with an insulated case. There seems to me to be no heat production at all over here.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 27, 2009, 12:20:19 AM

# jadaro2600

Quote from: jadaro2600 on December 26, 2009, 11:21:36 PM
I was wondering if the toroids get electromagnetically coupled? ..are they placed perpendicular to one another, or are the linear?

With toroids all (or most) of the magnetic field stays inside the toroid so there is no couplilng to things around it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on December 27, 2009, 02:22:12 AM

@ All

I am very happy to have lit a LED on 1x Earth cell .8 volts at ~4 mA's of (19 3/4 inch long copper and galv-steel) running direct into a very basic Joule thief with no cap at all and a Bif wound coil + a secondary coil on small toroid.

LED lights up good on secondary coil or just connected normally.

I would like to run my complete house lighting off these, but I would need 100-200 of these cells in my back yard -depending on how bright I get these LED's to light.

1x Earth cell .8 volts at ~4 mA's lights my LED - good ... FREE POWER
2x Earth cells .8 volts at ~7 mA'a connected together lights LED - very good ...FREE POWER
1x AA battery lights LED - very bright

One photo of LED lit...

Hopefully I'm on my way to absolutely free power...

Sorry for cap in photo... that was taken when I used cap, but since I have now taken cap out and I dont need it now...

Can anyone help me with taking this (1x Earth cell-Joule thief-lit LED) experiment further ???

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 27, 2009, 04:06:37 AM

Freepow:

Nice job lighting the led. Check this topic out here:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3500.msg217332#new (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3500.msg217332#new)

Lasersabre just hit 1.6 volts and 38 mA's on his set-up. He has been running a small electric motor on his cell for many, many hours now. The last time I checked on my EER it was at 1.9 volts and 19 mA's still.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 27, 2009, 04:37:51 AM

Jeanna, Gadget and all:

Check out this video of how to make LED ice cubes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kNUupbVTkE&feature=popt00us09

It does a nice job as a diffuser and uses some clear resin similar to what Gadget was talking about. This stuff would allow us to make all sorts of diffuser designs, not just the cubes.

Anyway, thought you might like to see this.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 27, 2009, 06:57:27 AM

Thanks Bill. yes thats the stuff i use . Its simular . My hardner is drops instead I chose this kind but there is that kind as well . Yes this stuff is great . I already made a few round ones and this is why i chose clear cast lucite becuase of its light amplifying properties . You can also color it with a drop of food color dye if you chose to. Make sure its well ventelated as it stinks ! And also you can cut the curing time down to a few hours if you set it in front of a heater like a little ceramic heater . This stuff will work in any mold that is mad of a rubbery plastic ,The also sell some spray that coats molds for quick release , sort of like PAM spray for your baking pan ;)

Jeanna . I don't know that the CFl does produce heat BUT we are ignighting the gas plasma in the tube so there should be a tiny amount of heat in there . Also if you note that if you warm the cfl with a hair dryer before you fire it it will be 5 times brighter ! maybe the clear enclosure will serve to keep some heat in there and make it brigher while difusing or rather AMPLIFYING the light like those ice cube leds .

@all I have not ordered any toroids from Jeanna's supplier yet because of Christmas wiped me out ! I need time to recover . In the meantime you can get free ones from mag-inc.com . you just pay shipping

I think we need to have a supplier list made and then have Pirate post it in the diagrams area for Quick reference being that topic is locked and things get losed in here quick . i used to have the page written down but now the page numbers changed and we only have 700 pages instead of 1000's . We need newbe wire supplier , torroid suppliers led and transistor suppliers in there !
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 27, 2009, 07:05:06 AM

freepower Nice job with the EBjt ! I have found that Zinc rods and carbon produce more current but are more expensive and a lot heavier ! The cap serves as a current booster across your Eb try a 3500 uf at 10volts low esr

Also i would like to say Congratulations to Groundloop on his new well deserved title !

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Silvije on December 27, 2009, 10:38:14 AM

Merry Christmas!

http://i50.tinypic.com/108762t.jpg (http://i50.tinypic.com/108762t.jpg)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tysb3 on December 27, 2009, 10:38:55 AM

Hi
my JT not overcome > 1.
JT is good, when you play with AC and voltage. but when you need DC and curent, you get the power looses to transform.

1 more crayzy picture ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tysb3 on December 27, 2009, 12:29:29 PM

upgrade

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tysb3 on December 27, 2009, 12:40:06 PM

ugrade2

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 27, 2009, 02:05:08 PM

Those are cool videos.

I would like to see a slightly foggy resin rather than the absolutely clear type.

It is a problem with the eyes making the safety decision based on the extreme brightness of the point of the led and the pupil constricts and the result is that even though the led is intensely bright, the room appears darker because your eyes are closed down they way they are in bright sun.
I am still on the hunt for great diffusers.

In following up on some leads from that video I came across a place that sells glass etching compound.
This is the perfect thing..for glass......now to find an equivalent to dip the superbrights into to make them diffused.

I saw on the throwies page there is a link to very expensive leds from china that are diffused.
I got a few from RS back in the days... but since I am looking for a diffuser for superbrights the search continues.

I love the led ice cubes. (I must be some kind of a nut! 8) )

OK back to the lamp that won't turn off!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on December 27, 2009, 03:08:11 PM

Gagdet why is it that one cannot connect the Ucap to a heater filament and then you told me to put a copper wire to see glow??????
Cannot understand this cause copper wire have much lesser resistance as heater filament. ???
This guy had used it on an electric kettle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RWaCE_SW8w

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 27, 2009, 03:51:35 PM

so i was playing around with my special tool ... lol

i think it can be set up as a multi detector ... lol

i stumbled upon a way to tune to what ever odd freqs i desire ... strange little thing looks like it may or could be made to detect electric / sclar feilds ...

: )

w

basically what im saying is when i went to shoot the video of this effect ... the thing changed its tune... i thought it was a loose wire ... nope ....

i just found the freq ... agin now it does as it did b4 squeels and such when i change its axis / elevation angle and things ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 27, 2009, 04:00:41 PM

Jeanna:

You can frost glass by etching it, or sandblasting it, or just sanding it...same thing. So, as far as the LED's go, you can take some sandpaper, I would suggest pretty fine like 800 grit or finer, and lightly sand the plastic on the LEDs and this will frost them. I have done this a little while back. It will diffuse but, like any diffuser also cuts back on the light output so, it is another balance/compromise deal.

It may do well to sand the tips with a coarser grit paper and the sides with finer paper. I will try this to see what that effect might be. So much of the light comes out of the ends that it might take 600 grit paper or a little lower to get the desired effect. They sand easily and it only takes a moment or two to get the frosted effect.

This might make a good video so if I can round up what I need, I may do this again and video it.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 27, 2009, 04:09:03 PM

@all

I got a way to find the new page number ex i am looking for page 478.

478*10/15+1 319

i hope this help ... page number *10/15+1

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 27, 2009, 04:23:51 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 27, 2009, 04:00:41 PM

It may do well to sand the tips with a coarser grit paper and the sides with finer paper. I will try this to see what that effect might be. So much of the light comes out of the ends that it might take 600 grit paper or a little lower to get the desired effect. They sand easily and it only takes a moment or two to get the frosted effect.

This might make a good video so if I can round up what I need, I may do this again and video it.

Bill

That would be great, Bill.

Also you can show the difference as you are doing it instead of just here is my light and there was a different one.
The problem will be the compensation of the camera, but with both at the same time it will be easy to see how it makes a difference.

wow

thank you,

jeanna

Quote from: Mk1 on December 27, 2009, 04:09:03 PM
@all

I got a way to find the new page number ex i am looking for page 478.

478*10/15=1 319

i hope this help ... page number *10/15+1

This is good Mark.

If everybody would use reply # instead of page# this won't happen in the future.
jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 27, 2009, 05:01:30 PM

Quote from: guruji on December 27, 2009, 03:08:11 PM
Gagdet why is it that one cannot connect the Ucap to a heater filament and then you told me to put a copper wire to see glow??????
Cannot understand this cause copper wire have much lesser resistance as heater filament. ???
This guy had used it on an electric kettle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RWaCE_SW8w

Hi . You did not say a heater filiment you said a heater . I thought you meant a plug in heater . No was my answer for that . You need a 110 volt bcap pack for that . now if you have a piece of wire filament yea . That is what i told you and copper wire has almost no resistance and it will glow bright also . That video shows about 3000 dollars worth of bcaps in series to make 24 volts and amperage like crazy . did you see the power supply /inverterthat he used to charge that pack up weighs at least 200 pounds !!and the 24 volt inverter cost about another 4000 dollars or more . I have seen some good ones like trace the one i have cost 5000 dollars but it runs off 24 volts and is made to power the house from solar and stored in 1100 pounds of forklift batteries. If you want to do that you need to spend at least another 4000 to dollars to get the constant current charger and cheap inverter plus another 20 bcaps 10 in series and 10 in parallel or just as well go to maxwell and order you a 110 volt pack to power all your 110 stuff for about 10,000 dollars !remember i told you these will burn stranded lamp cord into when fully charged . Look .Its yours but its only 2.7 volts so you cannot run 110 volt heaters . you can run pieces of wire . If you read i said this might heat a hamster cage or a well insulated dog house :)or light ciggs .Try a Pelteir module on it instead for better heat and cold ! I have done lots of experiment and its up to you to figure out what else can be done . Try It ! Experiment ! you don't need my permission but remember My warnings . These are not TOYS ! they will hurt you burn you electrocute your hand if moist or sweaty and explode like a bomb if you over charge them . Be careful and have fun . And of Coarse you can ask Me and anyone any questions you have like you are . But its up to you to experiment and see what can be done . Use insulated pliers if your jumping wire . or you will get 3rd degree burns ! . It will take 41 bcaps to power an American nichrome heater coil ! . Use a piece of coPPer wire :)

Albert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 27, 2009, 07:34:55 PM

@ kooler

I have managed to get better performance from the 0.7 ohm coil There seems to have been two problems. The first is that the protype board was shorting and the second is that I killed my first 2N6399 (probably as a result of the short). Attached is video of circuit 21 except that a 0.5 uF capacitor is being used. Results are similar to the 1.6 ohm coil except that the sparks due not seem to have as much current.

EDIT: Oh, the circuit is definitely putting our over 6KV. I put a 6KV cap across the high voltage output, thinking the output must be lower than that, and I got a spark across the capacitor leads.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 27, 2009, 07:56:30 PM

@ All:

Here is my video on the LED sanding and diffusion experiments:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkep8nHUMdA

It works just fine BUT it does cut down on the light output total and I don't like that. anyway, for what it is worth, here it is.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 27, 2009, 08:16:46 PM

I have a solution . Cast them in Clear lucite ! then sand the top ! the top will be frosted glow Bright and reflect the light on the clear sides thus amplifying the light and at the same time difusing the eye shattering beam !

gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 27, 2009, 08:20:10 PM

Gadget:

That sounds like a great idea there. Maybe even have a cast square on top where the topside is sanded and the light then runs around and exits around all the edges...or a disk might be even better. Many things to try...so little time.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on December 27, 2009, 09:48:40 PM

@ xee2
if you notice the frequency of the scr changes with the resistance of the coil you use
light bulb... ign coil... flyback coil crt....the mot
it will charge two mot caps in a instance.. with a mot hooked up..
flyback coil ..crt.. is kool cause if you hook it backwards it changes the polarity of he coil
and you can feel a kool breeze off the high tension lead like a ion generator

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 27, 2009, 10:05:00 PM

Hi kooler

Quote from: kooler on December 27, 2009, 09:48:40 PM
@ xee2
if you notice the frequency of the scr changes with the resistance of the coil you use
light bulb... ign coil... flyback coil crt....the mot
it will charge two mot caps in a instance.. with a mot hooked up..
flyback coil ..crt.. is kool cause if you hook it backwards it changes the polarity of he coil
and you can feel a kool breeze off the high tension lead like a ion generator

TV flyback transformers usually have HV diodes in them that prevent getting reverse polarity out of the coil. They are also not made for high current, so this circuit may destroy them. But I am probably overly cautious about destroying transformers.

The frequency should be primarily set by the JT output power and the value of the capacitor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 27, 2009, 10:09:17 PM

its always good to kool things down ... eh kooler! lol

J

had an idea for you golden coil ! and i think you might quite enjoy it ! as it is the CENTER PEICE!

ok

now ... make a new job for you coil we know it blowes up 1000's of leds ... if you want it to it lites cfls it charges caps .... hummmm

lol see where im going .. ? use your secondary to recharge source draw from trigger colapse and with the tip 122 127 .. add feed back .. just a LOW VOLTAGE FEEDBACK.... use high ones as output .. to pass on to cap bank... THEN WHEN DRIVEING BANK IS RECHARGED as it will run with gain ... put an over flow and redirrect to output cap bank ... use the gadget solars to orgonally charge it ...

look mom no batteries ... lol

ist!

btw i DID NOT DEMO LOW VOLT OUT PUT FEED BACK FEEDS!

hummm so if there really low volts? does that mean there much higher in amps ??????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on December 27, 2009, 10:40:20 PM

xee2
i forgot they had diodes in them
makes it more interesting.. to why it gives the ion breeze with pos
ah i might cut the side off and bypass the diodes and see what happens...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 28, 2009, 12:25:11 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 27, 2009, 07:56:30 PM

It works just fine BUT it does cut down on the light output total and I don't like that. anyway, for what it is worth, here it is.

Thanks Bill.
That was well done.
Well, some people buy the unfrosted 100w filament light bulbs and hang them from the ceiling with no shade. It is definitely brighter, but it glares, and as I mentioned, it is a funny thing that it doesn't always light up the room any better.

I am grateful to you for doing that test.

=======
@All,

I finished my lamp and darn... this is so strange.

I went to a lot of trouble to get the battery-rheostat-switch in line with the joule thief under the fixture.
I did all that so I could use the switch.
I even fed the secondary wires through the little holes around the bulb screw place.
I managed to get the thing so it went out when the switch was thrown, but it continues to drain from the battery.
It might be a faulty switch, but I bet it is because it is doing a joule thief radiation shuffle, or some other kind of dance.

So, it looks sort of like the other globe lamp except it has a rheostat.
The light is the 19 led LoA light so it has fewer bulbs than the 24 in that one, and it is beautifully smooth in the light it gives off.
I mean there are no bright light spots coming through the glass bulb.
Those strawhats are very nice in that way.
But, it is not really any brighter.

AND,
I measured the rheostat and 0.6v is going through when the light switch is off. !!!!! ???

I guess I will need to make a magnet switch like Bill's, if I keep this, but I think it is not working.
Perhaps the thing to do is to make a growlight tube lamp out of it since the extra high voltage will be put to good use.
So, this was a frustrating, but a learning day.

-----
I have another question I am asking myself.
And, I will ask all of you.

We all know that we must put our leds in series because the led with less resistance will glow really bright for a while but it will eventually kill it because too much amperage is going through it.
OK, but that is for a normal dc circuit.

This HV has negligible amps, so I am wondering if the HV excitation of the phosphors makes that [keep it in series] consideration unnecessary.
It sure would be nice, especially since most of those cheap Chinese flashlights which are overdriven use leds in parallel, and the modification is easy to just add a joule thief and remove 3 batteries. ;D

I am wondering if anybody else has made any of these mods with the jt secondary, and can share some experience.
[gadget?, ist?, MK1?...anyone?]

You know, if it works, we could solder up say 20 or 24 leds in parallel and wind only 10 turns on a secondary and it will be done!
If it works...

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Magluvin on December 28, 2009, 12:51:45 AM

Something I know of LEDs, if you have 2 in parallel after a limit resistor, usually only one will light due to barrier voltage differences in each. LEDs also have an overdrive effect when pulsed. Like circuits for laser diodes, I believe 10khz or so, the chip gets super excited then return to normal brightness after the excited stage during the pulse.
If you have ever shined an led (clear lens) on a wall or paper, you can see the chip and even the anode wire, tiny.
If you increase the pulse rate from low to high, you can see each side of the chip get bright 1 at a time, till eventually they all get excited and very bright. Soo the jt's are most likely taking advantage of this excited state and this can account for the brightness that you get from them, even at low currents.
But if you want them to be in parallel, use some really low ohm resistors for each in order to to let each be able to reach barrier voltage before another kills it for the rest as in when they are parallel.
Mags

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 28, 2009, 01:01:12 AM

Quote from: jeanna on December 28, 2009, 12:25:11 AM
Thanks Bill.
That was well done.
Well, some people buy the unfrosted 100w filament light bulbs and hang them from the ceiling with no shade. It is definitely brighter, but it glares, and as I mentioned, it is a funny thing that it doesn't always light up the room any better.

I am grateful to you for doing that test. { me 2 im gratefull for ALL you have done ! }

I am wondering if anybody else has made any of these mods with the jt secondary, and can share some experience.
[gadget?, ist?, MK1?...anyone?]

You know, if it works, we could solder up say 20 or 24 leds in parallel and wind only 10 turns on a secondary and it will be done!
If it works...

thank you,

jeanna

yes j

i can say i have driven 6 leds with no diffrance .. from 4 turn secondary and i have had 2 ... i need to use a weeker battery ... or there too bright and my transistor still gets too hot .. this is why i choose the CANS.. and cuz i have not used them b4 ..

that was a 4401 npn

so in short if i want to run 10 leds from 1 coil ... and you want a 30 led bunch maybe you need 5 turns .. and 3 coils never tryed it just about all my leds are burnt out .. need to some how get a few hundred thousand more ... lol

as long as all coils are the same .. it dont care ... and DONT TAP BACK SIDE!

here is a pic

w

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 28, 2009, 01:05:00 AM

Thanks magluvin.

But that is way too much work for me or anybody, which is why I asked.
However, the rheostat or even a fixed resistor at the pos of the battery does reduce the voltage coming from the battery, so that aspect could be controlled som without too much soldering.

btw,
I am regularly using about 20k-50khz with my secondary circuits.
It was easy to make the one in series parallel.
Do you really think this applies here? Or, maybe does the high freq/hivoltage just excite the whole array sort of like corona, and not really get into the led itself.

Thank you. This gives me something to add to my thoughts on it ,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 28, 2009, 01:09:06 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on December 28, 2009, 01:01:12 AM
yes j

i can say i have driven 6 leds with no diffrance .. from 4 turn secondary and i have had 2 ... i need to use a weeker battery ... or there too bright and my transistor still gets too hot .

as long as all coils are the same .. it dont care ... and DONT TAP BACK SIDE!

here is the pic

w

Thank you w,
This kind of experience is what I am looking for.

Why does your transistor get hot on a joule thief?
You must be doing a feedback too?

thank you,

jeanna

edit
that is such a nice looking circuit.
I should make mine look like that! ;D
j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 28, 2009, 01:19:34 AM

yes i kinda think that.... but if that is the case and i bet it is THATS WHY THE TRANSISTOR IS AND AMP AT ALL ... if ya understand what im saying ... : )

lol

thats a joke for another time ... tho

i think i may find a ballance point where it works without heat to the transistor as i remove more of the EXCESS MAGNETIC ENGERY that is stored in the toroide ... right now i have 2 outlets... and 2 burn out your transistor feedbacks ... SAY PNP AND DIODE.....

lol

say what!

w

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Magluvin on December 28, 2009, 01:26:27 AM

Im not sure in your case. It was just what you were saying in the previous post that triggered my comments.
It is possible that the high voltages you encounter override my experience here. But I would have to say that the initial currents, at the voltages that occur, that enter the leds are sure to throw them into excited states and it could be that more in parallel could be diminishing that current ability to excite or overcome overall parallel conduction in all of the leds. So in series, the inability to go beyond a certain no. of leds would be due to lack of enough voltage in total, even though the current is available.
Soo, lets say you have 30 leds in series and they are well and bright, then add another bank of 30 in parallel to that, if the current is available, they should all light. And if only one bank lights, a .22ohm or so res. in each series bank should let them all glow. Maybe. =] some fiddling may be needed on those res. values.
In my exp. a corona over the chip just may damage the chip, from allowance of available current to flow across the side junctions.

Mags

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 28, 2009, 01:58:17 AM

so since i mentioned my D 808 G

i should explain an 808 first off there a tone of meanings to 808

but in the SUN DISC D 808 G AKA DOG lol it is a sound sample it could be best described as 2 bedinis counter rotating counter accelerating to a retatred speed ... with out distortation ...

to visualize an 808 sound wave look at a commet boooooommmm then zzooooooooooooommmmmm

like the comet its self and its longggggggggg echoing tail ... and the boom trigeres the other dirrection ... and ta da ....

w

in other words ... yep ... pretty much what showed up in the skys..... lol ; )

kinda like this just better lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhVv8eqrRfI

now imagine 2 freq D 808 G plus ou put modulation .....and self timeing... o my ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on December 28, 2009, 02:12:52 AM

jeanna
i meant to post this a month ago
but those leds i had on the aircoil were (100ma) bulbs they will not lite on a coin cell
but will lite full on a 2 aa batt together
and the the aircoil did 4 together on 45ma's draw
the stems of the leds are so big they will not fit in a bread board
didn't know if you guy caught that in the pics i showed
they will blind you for a good 30seconds or more if you look at them for a half second
and i have had no luck getting those 1'' goldmine to put out anything over 310vdc
without going over 105 ma's

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 28, 2009, 02:17:56 PM

@ist,
I find it interesting that the spiral first went one way then it flipped and after it flipped the hole opened up. I bet that is significant.

@kooler,
Thanks for the follow up on that bulb.
I have 2 of those and I thought one of them broke. Maybe it didn't and maybe instead my circuit went below the much higher threshold.

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on December 28, 2009, 04:13:28 PM

Quote from: tysb3 on December 27, 2009, 12:40:06 PM
ugrade2

Hi Tysb3 is this true this circuit? Did you build this or just speculation?
If you build this and working as you're saying can you please post parts of that?
Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tysb3 on December 28, 2009, 07:24:39 PM

@ guruji
Hi,
it is just speculation.
but maybe Ill try this when I heave more advanced parts and oscioloscope

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tysb3 on December 28, 2009, 07:39:20 PM

@ All
reducing current consumption during the operation of the arc.

http://www.freelook.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=35&Itemid=293

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on December 28, 2009, 09:41:17 PM

We are definitely seeing the effects of generating ionizing frequency potentials. What they can do besides just exciting phospherescent coatings into luminous effects and random electron quantom oscillations like in an led is to excite an electron cascade event.
The fast electrons knock an electron out of the inner energy shells of an atom. The electrons of more energy in the outer valence shells drop down to fill the vacancy. This dropping down from a high energy state to a lower one creates radiant energy or radiowaves or whatever you want to call it. These photons (not all photons live in the light spectrum) represent the amount of energy difference between the outer valence electrons and the inner valence electrons. The photon so generated can then be of sufficient energy and frequency to cause another atom to do the same thing. When the atoms run out of atoms to cascade with the photon energy goes radiant and diffuses of into the wild blue yonder. If your accelerated electrons meet up with a different form of atom that doe not respond to the initial ionizing energy they accumulate and in so doing create a very negative field as one would find in a charged capacitor. Electrons are funny critters. They can be a fast moving particle or a high frequency standing wave. Both at the same time mind you.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on December 28, 2009, 09:42:28 PM

@ All
PLEASE READ ALL THIS CAREFULLY, THANKS

This is a basic Joule thief 13,13 turn Bif and 30 turn secondary and has been tuned with variable resistor to its best at o ohms.

Photo 1, 1x EER lights only 1 LED EER output = .7 to .8 vdc at 4 mA's
Photo 2, 1x EER wont light 2 LED's EER output = .7 to .8 vdc at 4 mA's
Photo 3, 2x EER lights 1 LED brighter EER's output =.7 to .8 vdc at 7 mA's
Photo 4, 2x EER lights 2 LED's EER's output =.7 to .8 vdc at 7 mA's
Photo 5, 2x EER wont light 3 LED's EER's output =.7 to .8 vdc at 7 mA's
Photo 6, 2x EER wont light 3 LED's a clearer picture of 3 LED's EER's output =.7 to .8 vdc at 7 mA's
Photo 7, 1x AA battery lights 4 LED's very brightly AA output = 1.1 to 1.2 vdc at heaps of mA's
Photo 8, 1x AA battery lights 4 LED's clearer picture AA output = 1.1 to 1.2 vdc at heaps of mA's

As you can see the lower the mA's in a EER = less voltage at the output of a Joule thief
2x EER's had more mA's so I could light more LED's
1x AA has plenty of mA's and I know i've measured the output on a similar Joule thief which had 50+ vdc,
but my 1x EER only has .7 to .9 vdc at only about 4 mA and through the Joule thief it spikes at only...
3.8 vdc, so as far as I can tell then the more mA's you have in a EER = higher voltage output from your Joule thief.
Am I wrong or right ?????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 28, 2009, 09:57:11 PM

Ah yes, it is december in the far north.
It is too cold for me to experiment but it is a good time to start a new thread... right?

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8540.0 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8540.0)
It is a combo thread, for discussing using the EER to start a joule thief, so if you are working on both lets meet over there.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tysb3 on December 28, 2009, 11:16:24 PM

somebody try this idea ?
to transform again low voltage, but higer curency
I feel its should be about >1 efficiency and easy measureble
maybe Ill try it

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 28, 2009, 11:18:11 PM

Night Visitation
A print of a drawing shown under a gallery light.

( ;D ;D)

This is the one(727v,6.5KHz) that sparks through the switch.
I took it apart and gave it a new lease on life.

OH bye the way, the clips holding the tube are from wallmart and sold for holding led strings in place.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 28, 2009, 11:32:04 PM

Jeanna:

Nice work. That tube is fully illuminated from end to end.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 29, 2009, 12:43:52 AM

Thanks Bill,

That 727v is monster.
It is too strong for anything but a fluoro tube.
I find it very odd that it will not turn on a cfl, because it is so strong.
I just got an order of those tor-61's and more TIP31C's in today.

I still want to make a light with a non modified bulb, 727v is too high for the switch.
The one I had trouble with may work with a fresh transistor, so, that is where I will start,
It has 84T and I was getting around 100v, and then adding 30T to make it 110T put it up to 727volts, so I think if it is not resonance, there was something else going on.

The thrift store had a fresh supply of lamps today and with a new order of toroids and transistors in hand... I am having fun.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: JoinTheFun on December 29, 2009, 06:03:20 AM

Quote from: jeanna on December 28, 2009, 11:18:11 PM
Night Visitation
A print of a drawing shown under a gallery light.

( ;D ;D)

This is the one(727v,6.5KHz) that sparks through the switch.
....

How long does it run on a fresh battery ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on December 29, 2009, 06:56:33 AM

Well done with fluoro, is it lit as bright as grid power??

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 29, 2009, 08:59:58 AM

i find it funny they released dinosour turkey vultures in canada a few years back ... LOOKS LIKE THEY FOUND A FEW GRAINS.....

and LANDED AT MY MEAL...

I SAY THERE aint any grains FOR STRAYS!! if you never worked at it .... lol

btw im sure there many kyoite bots cleaning up the vultures .. as we speek! i have hundreds of cyotes in the back 40...

I GUESS YOU THEN UNDER STAND THE ONES WHO HAVE!!

NO BODY GOES 15 FOR FREE!

IT IS A PRIYMID... AND WHERE DO YOU STAND ...? AND WHERE WILL YOU STAND WHEN I CALL YOUR NAME?

IT WILL NOT BE AT THE TOP AS MY TOP SEATS ARE FILLED!

THANK YOU!

now i took apart 3 fiber nodes! last night i aquired 4 lasers ..

they i bet could cook a WILD DINISOUR TURKEY VALTURE AT 3000 ' SHOULD I LIKE IT TO DO THAT

I ALSO FOUND 2 1F SUPER CAPS...

i can make a self runner with ease useing super caps ..

i shared shared shared 4 years now .... WHAT HAVE I EVER GOT NOTHING NOTHING ... hardly a thank you ! what will you get ...? HARDLY A CHANCE ..

WHAT WILL YOU GET ..... THATS RIGHT NOTHING NOTHING ....

BUT im a nice guy i let you live and play in my game!

w

IM WONDERING WHAT KIND A HOAX THIS SITE IS ...
so i was doing the christmas meal deal at moms ... the family was over and little bella was asked to take this card to grampa! TO WHARE DID SHE WALK TO FIRST ... SHE IS 2 YEARS OLD ...

YOU GUESSED IT ... then her mom says thats not grampa ... or is it ? lol

i then said i do not wear the H hat for nuttin! lol every where i go ... ALL THE LITTLE ONES ALREADY KNOW!

THANK YOU

im tired of my old blue car always stuck in the snow .........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDBu-hX0Itg

!!!!!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Doug1 on December 29, 2009, 10:41:16 AM

Any one ever run across this patent?
20090315507
Here is a a link to pat2pdf to view it.
http://www.pat2pdf.org/
It reads as if it is for a voltiac cell but the parts list looks like a JT run from a voltaic. Something to avoid being too much like if your going for a pat of your own. Worth reading for the verbage to write one in same class.
Of course you may always learn a little bit from others to build on for better results.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 29, 2009, 12:07:26 PM

Quote from: JoinTheFun on December 29, 2009, 06:03:20 AM
How long does it run on a fresh battery ?

This is a AAA and a TIP31. I expect this to run for 1 1/2 hours max.
My AAA NiMH batteries are 700mHA and they are old.
More and more I believe the length of run time is about the transistor more than what the secondary can produce.
That said, it is impossible so far to light a fluoro tube with a single little transistor.

QuoteWell done with fluoro, is it lit as bright as grid power??

Thanks freepow,
It is as bright as the first moment it goes on when used on the grid.
These fluorescent things get brighter when they warm up, and the jt secondary alone does not make it get warm.
If I can add a cap and resistor to make it get warmer, it might be brighter.

If anyone can tell me how to do that without taking so much the light goes out, please explain your ideas.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 29, 2009, 02:24:15 PM

here is a picture of the lasers i dugg out 1 v 1mw .....

if i can amp electricty .. i with EASE can amp a jt driven laser !! those are for later ... the gold lol was some kind of bronze ... so i bet NEO ZAP IS MY GOLD WITH THOSE ... ; )

I finally got the crap out of my work area!! now i can start to build agin .... but im not sure how much more i care to share....... hummmmmm

what have i ever gotten ? for doing so .... 0 yep .... ooooo the puck always ends up in the net!

some day! you figure this all out ...... someday!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6pODq8_FxE

H

lol

last pic my npn 18 board and my npn pnp 9x9 and my tip modulator board is under the stack!

: )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on December 29, 2009, 04:33:22 PM

Hi did anyone tried to put the secondary to the source battery and see if the source charge itself?
Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 29, 2009, 04:47:05 PM

Quote from: guruji on December 29, 2009, 04:33:22 PM
Hi did anyone tried to put the secondary to the source battery and see if the source charge itself?
Thanks

All my leds that were also on that secondary went out when I tried that.

@ALL,
I have just discovered that all my transistors are half broken.

How do I say this?

If the transistor is set to run a very normal and well known toroid, the oscillations refuse to start until the base resistance is down to less than500r.

I just got an order of tip31 in yesterday and they appear normal, that is, they still turn on at higher resistances.

I had a lot of trouble last week and one by one I have found that most of my components are not working right.
I have no idea what this is, but I report it in case everyone/anyone else is struggling, and if there was a flare of some kind that half blew my components.

Anybody else?

jeanna
----
I better get on with the mag amp eh?

j

edit
I just went through all the transistors in the storage box,
Every one in plastic that was here before monday is seriously damaged.
The ones in the can's seem fine.
I have 3 germanium in cans from gadget
and about 8 2N2222A in cans from various places
2N3055 with leads on it seems fine too.

Fine means it turns a basic joule thief on when the base resistor is set to 1k ohms.

---
Even the original TIP3055 from RS that blew me away it was so good but never managed to get into a circuit is half gone.

This is disturbing, to say the least.
I live in a faraday cage except for the windows. My supplies are in the window.
They are all in metal cans, but I don't usually close them up.

I wonder if my experiments are doing this?
or
if something else?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 29, 2009, 05:18:07 PM

@jeanna

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_amplifier
http://www.toshiba-tmat.co.jp/eng/list/am_core.htm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 29, 2009, 05:51:05 PM

Thanks Mark,
You were the one who first turned me on to the mag amp.

The way they are designed now is not going to work because they use the mains ac power supply.
That is my understanding, and may be wrong!!!!!
I am wondering if you have tried to make one and if you ever had any success?

I am picturing a dual core with the primary wound completely onto one as usual, and only the collector coil wound on the other.
If I can hand start it the way jonny davro is doing with the pans, then the one with both will oscillate (and be the ac toroid) and the one with just the collector coil will be steady (and be the dc toroid).

Do you have thoughts on how to make one without the mains?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 29, 2009, 07:33:06 PM

well i just finally finished unsoldering the last tip ... and im sick of em ...

gotta be at least 90 of em in there

i had an idea yesterday ... but gadget mk1 or j should build it! or i will .... but it dont matter how many things i build ... same story ...

any how this is the idea a toroide tuning unit ... you hook up your coil to it find where it is best tuned ... in freq for desired operation be it oscolator tpu timeing unit wave generator led lighting device cap charger it is a pot some hook ups maybe a varible cap ... just a stupid simple unit the coil tuner .... then fix the resistance and wattage of choise ...

could throw a bridge in it too so you can read for best rectified voltage ... i may build a simple unit as i could use one any how ... we could build into it a place where TRANSISTOR COULD BE PLUGGED AND PLAYED ... i mean a compleat coil tester / tuner unit ... i will build a few with battery holders the hole bit ... the black cadilaic ... leggs high in the back! LOL : )

w

btw J i have a bunch of speciality vhf cans ..... just like the 2n2222a cans ... but some even have gold leads ... wich could be bronze ... who knows .. i have not even thought of looking at those units yet ..... there a few diffrent ones ... all cans some got some kind of heat sync / protector thingie on them

has anyone ever wondered about the 2N series ... 2 nano second ? maybe its important .... maybe 1 works well too ... ?

i found some extreamly nice multi turn pots .. 0-5k 6 - ? k i have a few diffrent ones ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 29, 2009, 11:30:43 PM

well i started to build the basic jt tuner for use with W and J core jt's

this one is a NPN 3055 can tuner reccomended for 1.5 - 3vdc. source for testing and tuneing uses ...

will include built in diode to mesure out put voltage ... other units could include secondary testing mesurement points ... this unit is strickly jt CORE TUNEING / TURN COUNT TUNEING UNIT!

it will only include a pot 3055 diode a battery holder an on and off switch ...

so it is half done ...

ist!

i will put 2 out puts for mesurements 1 for a scope and other rectified for volt meter!

: )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 30, 2009, 12:19:12 AM

@ ist

Quote from: innovation_station on December 29, 2009, 11:30:43 PM
well i started to build the basic jt tuner for use with W and J core jt's

this one is a NPN 3055 can tuner reccomended for 1.5 - 3vdc. source for testing and tuneing uses ...

will include built in diode to mesure out put voltage ... other units could include secondary testing mesurement points ... this unit is strickly jt CORE TUNEING / TURN COUNT TUNEING UNIT!

it will only include a pot 3055 diode a battery holder an on and off switch ...

so it is half done ...

ist!

i will put 2 out puts for mesurements 1 for a scope and other rectified for volt meter!

: )

Great. Since you have a good dual channel scope you should be able to get some good data that most of us are unable to get. It would also be interesting to get some scope shots of the voltages across the base resistor when there is a capacitor across it. I am looking forward to your data.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 30, 2009, 12:22:45 AM

Quote from: tysb3 on December 28, 2009, 11:16:24 PM
somebody try this idea ?
to transform again low voltage, but higer curency
I feel its should be about >1 efficiency and easy measureble
maybe Ill try it

Yes. Lidmotor made a video. It work well.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on December 30, 2009, 12:33:34 AM

Quote from: tysb3 on December 28, 2009, 11:16:24 PM
somebody try this idea ?
to transform again low voltage, but higer curency
I feel its should be about >1 efficiency and easy measureble
maybe Ill try it

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg216284#msg216284 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg216284#msg216284)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruJXtBby-pw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruJXtBby-pw)

tysb3
that is very much alike of what me and xee2 are playing with
but we are using scr and triac's rather than a spark gap

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 30, 2009, 02:07:02 AM

here is my ver of the jt tuner ..

i made it so i can change pots easly ...

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on December 30, 2009, 04:31:08 AM

@ All

Never though I'd ever light a fluoro with a small transistor, dont know wether it will burn out or not if I left it running for a long time...

I usually use the big trans - to light my flouro's, but thought I would try with this small one ! and it worked!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on December 30, 2009, 07:40:23 AM

Quote from: jeanna on December 29, 2009, 04:47:05 PM
All my leds that were also on that secondary went out when I tried that.

@ALL,
I have just discovered that all my transistors are half broken.

How do I say this?

If the transistor is set to run a very normal and well known toroid, the oscillations refuse to start until the base resistance is down to less than500r.

I just got an order of tip31 in yesterday and they appear normal, that is, they still turn on at higher resistances.

I had a lot of trouble last week and one by one I have found that most of my components are not working right.
I have no idea what this is, but I report it in case everyone/anyone else is struggling, and if there was a flare of some kind that half blew my components.

Anybody else?

jeanna
----
I better get on with the mag amp eh?

j

edit
I just went through all the transistors in the storage box,
Every one in plastic that was here before monday is seriously damaged.
The ones in the can's seem fine.
I have 3 germanium in cans from gadget
and about 8 2N2222A in cans from various places
2N3055 with leads on it seems fine too.

Fine means it turns a basic joule thief on when the base resistor is set to 1k ohms.

---
Even the original TIP3055 from RS that blew me away it was so good but never managed to get into a circuit is half gone.

This is disturbing, to say the least.
I live in a faraday cage except for the windows. My supplies are in the window.
They are all in metal cans, but I don't usually close them up.

I wonder if my experiments are doing this?
or
if something else?

Hi Jeanna sorry for blowing out your leds I was going to do that myself maybe I do another coil for leds and battery and see what happens.
Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Magluvin on December 30, 2009, 07:53:21 AM

J
Maybe you are producing Radiant pulses and its affecting things around you, like the transistors. Just a thought.
Maybe at the levels you are working with, they are not quite visible as compared to Teslas HV pulses. But if this were true, other electronics around would be disturbed also, like a dvm, etc. Again, just a thought.

Mags

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on December 30, 2009, 09:58:17 AM

@ Jeanna

It's possible the RF radiation plus any localised static discharges could have a damaging affect here. As I have said many times the pulse energy produced can be far reaching from these oscillator coil combinations, which can have a high harmonic content towards saturation and performance instability, hence the spikes used within your projects. It's possible the PN junctions could have become ruptured. Try making up a grounding plate so all the device legs share a common ground while in store. You can also do some comparable gain tests on your devices between old and fresh stock. Equipment that is not in use often escapes these type of issues, as the devices are not OPEN or unconnected. With the progress you're making you could well be generating mini electro_magnetic shock waves!!! (joke)
Merv

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on December 30, 2009, 10:20:02 AM

This was in the TPU thread! Has anybody tested this JT variation?

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-1815461677597553845&ei=S6c6S_aPDs6z-AbGhuAc&q=tpu&hl=en&view=3#

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gopalyajur on December 30, 2009, 12:12:46 PM

Hello Everyone,

Hope you all had great Christmas.

I have been following the thread for a pretty long time and did learn a lot from
everyone here. I was busy with my thesis for a while and did not have enough
time to build a HV Joule thief until recently. My Joule thief is putting little more than
1800 V A.C (i would say spikes) with the following configuration

2N3055 transistor
1.5 inch toroid
base winding - 4 turns
collector winding - 9 turns
3 layers of secondary - almost 500 turns with 26 # winding
1K pot to control the base current

with all this my CFL (11 watt) only shows a faint glow.

I dont have a camera now, will try to post some pics later.
And would check the scope readings when am back in the office.

In the meantime can someone let me know why I only have a faint glow

is it the frequency??

Anyways wishing you all a HAPPY AND A PROSPEROUS NEW YEAR!!!!

Regards

Gopal.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 30, 2009, 12:13:49 PM

here is a picture of todays adventure ...

i decided to make a nicer board and i removed the bulky connectors used smaller ones

ist!

added 2 25 ohm stats

i know i know your saying jesus ist! look at that thing ... lol beleave me i know !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 30, 2009, 01:21:55 PM

Quote from: gopalyajur on December 30, 2009, 12:12:46 PM
. My Joule thief is putting little more than
1800 .... spikes with the following configuration

2N3055 transistor
1.5 inch toroid
base winding - 4 turns
collector winding - 9 turns
3 layers of secondary - almost 500 turns with 26 # winding
1K pot to control the base current

with all this my CFL (11 watt) only shows a faint glow.

is it the frequency??

Hi gopal,
Welcome to the joule thief thread.
Thank you for providing the important information.
(We love real experimenters here.)

First... yes 1800 v spikes.
the way we abbreviate the numbers here is this way for yours:
4T,9T,500T

wow, 500 turns! I am impressed especially on a 1.5 inch toroid! I would never have guessed that you could get that many turns onto this with #26 wire.

Anyway,
It is possible that the frequency is down with that many volts.
Sometimes putting a neo magnet onto the toroid helps to raise the frequency.
Is there a squeal?
CFL's can be hard to light, but I would not have guessed they would be hard to light with 1800 volts.
Maybe what you call dim is what we are all getting?
The only way to answer this is to do a little experiment with 2 identical cfl's.

Turn the jt cfl on -so it is already on.
Arrange yourself and the lamps in such a way that you can see both bulbs at the same time, so put the jt cfl in front of the regular one.
[You will then turn on the other one from cold.
This means it cannot be on for 30 minutes and is completely cold.]
Now, looking directly at the dark bulb turn it on.

That first cold instant is the only time you can make a true comparison of the light.
As soon as the regular light is on it begins to warm the bulb and the light increases dramatically.

I think it would be worth a lot if someone could figure out how to add some capacitors with resistors in such a way that the jt cfl will get warmer, because then the light will be equivalent.

Thank you for joining this group,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 30, 2009, 01:25:16 PM

Quote from: freepow on December 30, 2009, 04:31:08 AM
@ All

Never though I'd ever light a fluoro with a small transistor, dont know wether it will burn out or not if I left it running for a long time...

I usually use the big trans - to light my flouro's, but thought I would try with this small one ! and it worked!

Nice work.
I think you are the first to do that!

Congratulations!!

----------------------------

@ist.
So, you stick the toroid wires under those colored screws?
Then you turn the pot.
I guess you connect the scope somewhere too?

This is a great idea.

Thank you for doing this and explaining it.

jeanna
-------------------
edit...add

I am going to keep the broken transistors and recheck them in a month.
I have kept some neos stuck to a lamp for easy access.
I saw this morning that the metal case that holds the transistors (within another plastic case) has been touching that metal lamp which has the neos stuck onto it.
I am thinking if the magnetism of the neos hurt them, then it will relax given enough time.
That is what happened with the very first jt I ever made, which I mistakenly made on a ferrite magnet toroid.
It worked weakly then broke, but later the transistor seemed to self heal.

So, for experimental reasons, I will look again in a month.
J

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tysb3 on December 30, 2009, 03:21:15 PM

@ xee2,
@ kooler,

thanks, I'll join to this idea

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 30, 2009, 04:39:44 PM

Quote from: stprue on December 30, 2009, 10:20:02 AM
This was in the TPU thread! Has anybody tested this JT variation?

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-1815461677597553845&ei=S6c6S_aPDs6z-AbGhuAc&q=tpu&hl=en&view=3#

Self running is probably a misnomer. It looks like it is running from a charged capacitor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on December 30, 2009, 05:05:18 PM

Quote from: gopalyajur on December 30, 2009, 12:12:46 PM
Hello Everyone,

Hope you all had great Christmas.

I have been following the thread for a pretty long time and did learn a lot from
everyone here. I was busy with my thesis for a while and did not have enough
time to build a HV Joule thief until recently. My Joule thief is putting little more than
1800 V A.C (i would say spikes) with the following configuration

2N3055 transistor
1.5 inch toroid
base winding - 4 turns
collector winding - 9 turns
3 layers of secondary - almost 500 turns with 26 # winding
1K pot to control the base current

with all this my CFL (11 watt) only shows a faint glow.

I dont have a camera now, will try to post some pics later.
And would check the scope readings when am back in the office.

In the meantime can someone let me know why I only have a faint glow

is it the frequency??

Anyways wishing you all a HAPPY AND A PROSPEROUS NEW YEAR!!!!

Regards

Gopal.

Gopal.

Welcome

Its always nice to have more expermenters here.

How many JTs have you made?

It sounds to me like you think kind of like I do.

I made a couple of JTs then went for the gold.

I started putting as many windings on the toroids as I could.

They did not work .

It appears that like most other things JTs require a little moderation.

If I waS you I would try tuning the secodary by taking about a half dozen turns at a time off ....... Your voltage may drop......but I think with less turns .......... you will be able to light a floro brightly.
Just tune it slowly ....... the idea is to find the sweet spot .

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on December 30, 2009, 05:07:52 PM

Quote from: gopalyajur on December 30, 2009, 12:12:46 PM
Hello Everyone,

Hope you all had great Christmas.

I have been following the thread for a pretty long time and did learn a lot from
everyone here. I was busy with my thesis for a while and did not have enough
time to build a HV Joule thief until recently. My Joule thief is putting little more than
1800 V A.C (i would say spikes) with the following configuration

2N3055 transistor
1.5 inch toroid
base winding - 4 turns
collector winding - 9 turns
3 layers of secondary - almost 500 turns with 26 # winding
1K pot to control the base current

with all this my CFL (11 watt) only shows a faint glow.

I dont have a camera now, will try to post some pics later.
And would check the scope readings when am back in the office.

In the meantime can someone let me know why I only have a faint glow

is it the frequency??

Anyways wishing you all a HAPPY AND A PROSPEROUS NEW YEAR!!!!

Regards

Gopal.

Hi Gopal,
CFL's can be tricky to light brightly and yes frequency can make some difference. It's purely a matter of trial and error and not allways more windings / more voltage will produce the results to ignite. You can try removing turns, also connect one winding of your secondary to the collector_the other to one end of your CFL, while the remaining CFL connection to ground or back to the collector.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on December 30, 2009, 05:11:50 PM

Quote from: xee2 on December 30, 2009, 04:39:44 PM
Self running is probably a misnomer. It looks like it is running from a charged capacitor.

I found out that this is old EM stuff but I think we could incorporate it into a JT circuit! What do you think!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 30, 2009, 06:36:27 PM

Quote from: crowclaw on December 30, 2009, 05:07:52 PM
....also connect one winding of your secondary to the collector_the other to one end of your CFL, while the remaining CFL connection to ground or back to the collector.

Crowclaw,
That sounds really weird to me.
If you electrically connect the primary to the secondary you will lose much of the advantage of the secondary.
It is magnetically connected and therefore the battery has little to do with the secondary output, but,
if you connect the secondary to the primary...
1- it might overheat the transistor, and,
2- it will take the juice out of the battery like a lead sinker. on a fishing line.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 30, 2009, 06:49:55 PM

just saw the kids .. yay! they got me a gift !

yep a UFO hummmmmm imagine!!!! little ali ins! lol anyhow its a radio controlled one with a lithium polymer battery ... sounds like an ubc ... or varient! has a high speed motor that runs a while from a charge .. in a few seconds .... HUMMMMM it is 3.6vdc 60 ma ...

ill take it apart eventually being the reason i was given it .. lol

ist

the kids call me uncle BUILD! : )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 30, 2009, 07:13:41 PM

My "Joule box" ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 30, 2009, 07:42:25 PM

Hey gang !
@jeanna
Here are some very cool COOL White leds . They are the purest white with no blue in them at all and resemble a normal light bulb, not golden but white and the neatest little ball Diffusers I have ever seen. They are on sale at Kmart for 5 dollars and are 50 to a pack and called pearl lights! I like them and these are lit by the Jeanna light core unmodified so they are just a tad under brightest from Ac but they put out some great light. Just thought Id share them being all the Christmas stuff is on sale now and its time to stock up on goodies fairly cheap and they have neat Diffusers

gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 30, 2009, 07:45:20 PM

A ufo and a joule box. (edit nice gadget)
What a wonderful showing to draw an end to this year of amazing accomplishment!
Good for us all!!!

I managed to get the 300v toroid to shut off at the switch... I think...probably.
I will wait and see if there is any draining, but it appears to be good.
There are storage caps in the unmodified bulb, and when I had the 700v JTC running the lamp, the storage caps kept the volts alive and they must have been arcing at the switch which made the switch useless for turning the lamp off.

Today I used a smaller toroid and a higher base resistor which made the total be 300v/ The unmodified bulb is not as bright as with 700v (duh) but it does turn off at the switch.

TIP3055RadioShack
5T,8T,84T MK1Jeanna style
120r fixed
309v
40Khz

and a pic...

I need to find a container for the joule thief whose secondary wires go in through the top and whose battery is connected at the bottom and which hangs down.
there were no shades at the thrift store, so I might get one for this purpose. I need to hide the snaggle of wires.
I'll show you...

jeanna

I should probably add that a switch made like Bills would be the solution in the use of the 700v toroid.
This is because Bill's magnet switch will disengage the battery.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: maw2432 on December 30, 2009, 09:20:41 PM

@gadget

Nice LEDs. Kroger store should be selling their left over LED xmas lights for about 1/4 price soon. I purchased a string of 100 for under $2.00 US last year.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 30, 2009, 09:28:47 PM

@ xee
nice joule(r.e.) box :)

@ jeanna
a mini keg would hide those wires great ;) probably not the decor you're looking for though...

@ all
happy holidays. may your next trip around the sun be your best yet!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 30, 2009, 09:37:12 PM

Gadget:

You are correct, this was the same time last year I got all of those 100 led strings for like 1/3 the price. good find.

Xee2:

Nice box! I like clear boxes that show all of our hard work in winding.

Jeanna:

Hey, you might have to take your light apart but, a PVC tube of about 2" OD would slide over all of your wires and hide them completely. Or, a paper towel tube cut to length and painted white, or off-white would work also.

My magnets are only used to attach the battery to what ever size battery I want to use, I do have a "normal" on/off toggle switch on the side of the box for turning on and off. I have to admit that I do remove the battery from my Jeanna Light when it is not in use...just in case. I guess I do not trust my electronics skills that much yet. I don't want to be off working a case and be worrying about something shorting out, ha ha. My cat, smart as she is, does still not know how to dial 911.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 30, 2009, 09:49:35 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on December 30, 2009, 07:45:20 PM
Today I used a smaller toroid and a higher base resistor which made the total be 300v/ The unmodified bulb is not as bright as with 700v (duh) but it does turn off at the switch.

Amazing. I have never been able to get an unmodified CFL to light. What bulb are you using?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on December 30, 2009, 09:56:48 PM

xee2
i think that is a unmodded led bulb

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 30, 2009, 10:20:27 PM

Quote from: xee2 on December 30, 2009, 09:49:35 PM
@ jeanna

Amazing. I have never been able to get an unmodified CFL to light. What bulb are you using?

Yes, kooler that is correct.

@xee2,
this is a Lights of America 19leds lightbulb. It is brighter than a cfl.
This comes with 19 leds in series and a circuit of 2 caps a fuse and a pair of resistors.
It is equivalent to about 25 filament watts (even though the claim is 40w)

I believe it was the caps that continued to hold the juice so that even though the switch went off the toroid continued the oscillation and used up the battery.
The reason I think this is because if I started with the switch off and then added the battery, nothing happened until I turned the switch on, but once on it would not turn off.
========
Thanks Bill. the jt is so small. If I had planned it, I would have used a 4 AA battery holder and wrapped the jt into it along with the battery.
Maybe I can still do that.
The battery is still on with a clip.

@Wilby... a keg is a fine idea but I would want the full 700v for a bright light.
With enough light, my beer would be safe.

I am still happiest with the way I made the globe light which takes the least amount of volts.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 30, 2009, 10:43:33 PM

@ will ... i recon that the next trip is the best one ... : )

i have litt un modded cfls right out the pac!

not constant ... thats probally a good thing .. tho .. i used a c battery to power a cam board then through a microwave toride .. then a cap then the cfl ... when the caps in the cfl fill they fire ... what is the output voltage and amparage of a standard cfl? so 2 jt's fireing 2 unmodded cfl units to a coil ... catch the RETURN ...

ist!

http://www.youtube.com/user/innovationstation#p/u/25/bkjN0GTlCRY

notice the swwwooosh as the cfl colpases !!!

Title: hv lighting incandescent via 1 wire
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 31, 2009, 02:54:12 AM

some kV's, an incandescent and 1 wire...

Title: Re: hv lighting incandescent via 1 wire
Post by: xee2 on December 31, 2009, 04:01:25 AM

@ WilbyInebriated

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on December 31, 2009, 02:54:12 AM
some kV's, an incandescent and 1 wire...

Impressive. So how did you do it?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on December 31, 2009, 07:04:07 AM

:) @ ALL

HAPPY NEW YEAR... EVERYBODY !

May the NEW YEAR of 2010 bring us closer to achieving success in our EXPERIMENTS,
and also some BIG breakthroughs on these forums !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on December 31, 2009, 07:43:36 AM

You can amplify the sound coming off the jt if you create a resonant cavity and listen to your jt. You have some harmonics there at acoustical feqs.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on December 31, 2009, 08:34:04 AM

Quote from: jeanna on December 30, 2009, 06:36:27 PM
Crowclaw,
That sounds really weird to me.
If you electrically connect the primary to the secondary you will lose much of the advantage of the secondary.
It is magnetically connected and therefore the battery has little to do with the secondary output, but,
if you connect the secondary to the primary...
1- it might overheat the transistor, and,
2- it will take the juice out of the battery like a lead sinker. on a fishing line.

jeanna

Hi Jeanna,

Hi jeanna,

Not so... he has a JT with base and collector windings, he has also wound on a secondary of X turns. This winding (see my drawing) can be used as an aditional choke loading coil for the CFL and is electrically coupled to the collector. It also works
with LED's this way, you have to make sure to phase the windings of course. To ionise the UV effectively the effects of capacitive coupling, operating voltage and frequency etc all come into play. Again it's a question of experimenting... as you do.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 31, 2009, 08:41:07 AM

thats nice n bright will!!

i guess i need to build the switch it ! now the SWITCH IT ! is a cross between a widget and a whats it !

the switch it ! will run on 1 jt.. a intrupted flipper and a dual output modulator !

the switch it fills up caps lites leds and will arc weld 1/2 plate steel on the spot ... lol
the
switch it !

i will soon have to build this as i just drempt it ...

im almost done my tunner ... i hope to finish it today! im adding the base fly back monitor plugg as well

ist!

a few pics ... of my tuner !

now in my pic #7 the fly back from the npn or the WHATS IT ... lol could be dumped to a SUPER CAP and go along and power the WIDGET the PNP unit... and this than could supply the SWITCH IT !

so what the heck is it ! a W WIT!

WE BUILT THIS CITY .... WE BUILT THIS CITY ON ROCK AND ROLL!

STAR SHIP!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxGGckAc1rs

CHARLIE DONT YOU KNOW ? YOU NEVER COME BACK FROM COPPER HEAD ROAD!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVmU_Ql8uI0

GRAND DADDY BOUGHT IT AT AN AUCTION AT THE MASONS LODGE!

last 3 pics ... its ALL IN THE HAND SHAKE! ; )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 31, 2009, 11:28:29 AM

Good bye 2009 !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on December 31, 2009, 12:24:20 PM

@ ALL

Still hours to go hear in the UK before Big Ben strikes 12... so

HAPPY NEW YEAR TO YOU ALL

Merv

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 31, 2009, 01:14:41 PM

SAY HEY YA YA... MK1

lookie what i found ... lol its even french side up lol : )

yes the doc found his ringggg a scope HEHEHEHE

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 31, 2009, 01:30:11 PM

@Wilby,
Please describe this in more detail!!
How many KV?
Disruptive discharge or electronic pulses?
Can you put it down?

@xee2,
Did you ever figure out the maximum volts you could use with that filament bulb?
I mean the one that vaporized with too many volts.
I hope I saved the details on the pic you showed us. It was many many pages ago.

@All,
Does anybody have a suggestion for a way to warm up a cfl so it gets brighter when it is on?
I am pretty sure the cap+resistor in the insides of the unmodified bulbs is adding to the heat, so it would seem possible.
Also, since the youtube video showing the guy heating his english teapot with a bcap, I think this might help.
I believe any amount over 800v is beyond what a cfl will need to fully light.
So, I have over 1600 volts and I am thinking I should be able to corral that extra 800v into a cap or cap + resistor to make heat.

I will give it a try, but I won't object to constructive ideas to steer me on this one.

thank you,

jeanna

In my reality... I create a new year of mutual respect for all humans on our planet.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 31, 2009, 02:29:58 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on December 31, 2009, 01:30:11 PM
@xee2,
Did you ever figure out the maximum volts you could use with that filament bulb?
I mean the one that vaporized with too many volts.
I hope I saved the details on the pic you showed us. It was many many pages ago.

The voltage was only a few hundred volts, it was the amps that it could not handle. I posted a video of 3 series filament bulbs being blinked. That was also a few hundred volts but less current.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gopalyajur on December 31, 2009, 02:47:45 PM

Thanks a lot Jenna, Gray and Merv for your super fast response and
valuable inputs.

I have made only 3 simple Joule thief running couple of LEDS and the HV one i mentioned
last time. I will try to do more experiments when I have time and post the results.

Once again I wish you all a HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!

Regards,
Gopal.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 31, 2009, 03:11:55 PM

Quote from: jeanna on December 31, 2009, 01:30:11 PM

thank you,

jeanna

In my reality... I create a new year of mutual respect for all humans on our planet.

I DONT LIKE IT .... I L O V E I T !

in my current reality ... i finished and tested the npn tuner .. WORKS JUST GREAT!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 31, 2009, 03:19:35 PM

Quote from: xee2 on December 31, 2009, 02:29:58 PM
@ jeanna

The voltage was only a few hundred volts, it was the amps that it could not handle. I posted a video of 3 series filament bulbs being blinked. That was also a few hundred volts but less current.

Yes, that is what I am thinking about.
A few hundred volts?
I tried with 300 yesterday and I believe 700 a couple of days ago. I used a 7w bulb and nothing happened, but NOW I have a small string of 6 volt lights which I believe are what you used, and I will give it a try.
Thank you.

I also got a couple of triacs, and I am trying to figure out kooler's drawing.

thank you

@ist,
That last photo helps.
This is a very good idea.
Thank you for sharing it in a complete way.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 31, 2009, 05:09:18 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on December 31, 2009, 03:19:35 PM
I also got a couple of triacs, and I am trying to figure out kooler's drawing.

The circuit I used is the one kooler and I are using to make the sparks. This can be a dangerous circuit. If you decide to try it you must be very careful. Attached photo shows the energy you will be generating. This blows up light bulbs and can harm or kill you. Be safe.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on December 31, 2009, 05:31:22 PM

Hi Gagdet today I was testing that heater circuit with the Ucap. The Ucap was charging very good.
The thing is that when I connect the Cap my led switch off. On your circuit it does the same?
Thanks
Happy New Year to all :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on December 31, 2009, 06:49:52 PM

Quote from: xee2 on December 31, 2009, 05:09:18 PM

The circuit I used is the one kooler and I are using to make the sparks.

Thanks xee2,
I am actually not interested in making big sparks.
What I want to do is make heat.
As I have been studying that circuit, I keep seeing more volts than I think I need to work with (=big sparks) but I am also thinking I have close to what I need anyway with 1700-2000 v in the big gold.

The question of heat is teasing my mind, because the hot teapot from the cap youtube video and Gadget's explanation that he gets heat from bcaps filled at the C-E junction... with an additional diode.
So, I have been thinking that a capacitor across the secondary somewhere with something like kooler's arrangement, might get the "heating juice" into the bcap.

It may be time to read some more from Tesla's lectures, because I sort of remember that he said he used a condenser (cap) to do something which I filed away as a heater or a torque or something that is normally thought of as from amps not volts.

thank you for the follow up,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 31, 2009, 07:16:24 PM

@jeanna

If i remember correctly , in the hairpin circuit demonstration , Karl said he could run furnace on it...

On 7 watt of 10 000 volts ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on December 31, 2009, 09:17:15 PM

I was looking at an email from Eleectric Goldmine something caught my eye.
I had no idea that anything like this existed

http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G17373

It takes at least 100 V to make it light
Almost seems to be made for a JT

Here is another page that has it

http://www.thatscoolwire.com/?gclid=CLfekr6Cgp8CFRmfnAodqlyu_w

It is kind if expensive but could be very valuable
It could be used as an indicator light to show something like how well your secondary is working

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 31, 2009, 09:50:25 PM

nice wire gary ... funny you post that ! lol

i just shipped the ccfl's back undone ... might need the cap trick to lite that wire ..

or a good bit of current ?

i made a trip to the ring place ... aka storage ... and pulled out the SUPER BLUE and some twisted speeker wire ... it is a 2 channel amp ... jt it ! audio driven ...

HAPPY NEW YEAR!

all that needs be done to drive a coil from an audio amp is the coil be tuned to the impeadance of the amp ...

ist!

so in my case i need a coil of 4 ohms .. my coil can be what ever i want it to be .... as long as its 4 ohms ... my coil can be made of low and high self inductances ... as long as it = 4 ohms .. why cuz thats my amp ... ok so i could also use a coil of 1 ohm and a 3 ohm resistor AS LONG AS IT IS what ? thats RIGHT 4 OHMS...

: )

then i could wind a coil on a toroide .. get a freq genny tuned to the resonant of the core material ... and ring it via the amp ... then tap the core for secondary outputs ...

AND DO NOT GET HURT!

it will run 12vdc!

H

they over rate thease silly amps ... but it says 240 watt! thats a pretty big jt ! primary ...

freq responce is 15 to 30khz

looks like fun!
8
0
8
YOU ALL HEAR THAT STAR SHIP ZOOM! 808 4 808 YA BABY!
8
0
8
sure i got hifi amps that go right up to 32 ohm ... yikes ... i built this controllor board a while ago .. 3 osc's 3 amps 2 ohm 4 ohm 8 ohm took hours to build it ! i blew a osc chip ... but i bought a few spares .. holders too so if i ever blow another ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 31, 2009, 09:52:27 PM

Quote from: guruji on December 31, 2009, 05:31:22 PM
Hi Gagdet today I was testing that heater circuit with the Ucap. The Ucap was charging very good.
The thing is that when I connect the Cap my led switch off. On your circuit it does the same?
Thanks
Happy New Year to all :)

Hi . No My lights are Lit and get brighter as the cap charges .Also use germanium diodes off the Collector . I am using 1n60 now . this is one thing you have to figure out . All My replicas so far light lights and charge . Are you using Goldmine toroid ? If not i would say the tuning is not correct . You will have to play with the windings on your primaries . 11 works perfectly and as you saw in the video i have one i sent to groundloop that only pulls 2 ma 3 max full output and very bright jumbo led .Good lucjk. Also Parts placment means something about they way same circuit operates . I proved that by making a reproduction but put parts ina different order . It was worst . The one i am using is pulling 13 to 21 ma and is stillin operation after 6 weeks. It does not look like it will quit anytime soon and My bcaps retains over 2 volts .

HAPPY NEW YEAR JT GANG ! HV EXPERIMENTERS LOOKIN GOOD !!

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on December 31, 2009, 10:30:12 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on December 31, 2009, 09:50:25 PM
nice wire gary ... funny you post that ! lol

i just shipped the ccfl's back undone ... might need the cap trick to lite that wire ..

or a good bit of current ?

IST

I don't think sp

They say it takes an in inverter to light the wire ........they sell the inverters
It looks like they are powered by a AA battery or 2

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 31, 2009, 10:34:14 PM

it must be a bit diffrent than the ones i had ... they were sticks they used the npn and pnp high freq capped unit .... but 9vdc supply or maybe 12 ... sounds like a better design of wire ...

all i can say ... is that they were unbleaveably bright! like put leds to shame big time ... !!

ist!

o yea it hurt if you got a zap ... been there done that! i scoped it ... it was way high in volts well over 1000v spikey wave

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on December 31, 2009, 10:42:34 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on December 31, 2009, 10:34:14 PM
it must be a bit diffrent than the ones i had ... they were sticks they used the npn and pnp high freq capped unit .... but 9vdc supply or maybe 12 ... sounds like a better design of wire ...

all i can say ... is that they were unbleaveably bright! like put leds to shame big time ... !!

ist!

o yea it hurt if you got a zap ... been there done that! i scoped it ... it was way high in volts well over 1000v spikey wave

Yes I am sure this is different
I am pretty sure what you had is a kind of floro tube ..........this is wire with insulation that glows when high enough voltage is in it.

gary

Edit

I do not think that this wire is extremely bright
They say it is like a neon tube ........only flexable

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: markdansie on December 31, 2009, 10:47:14 PM

@ Albert (gadgetmall)
Sorry for my late reply as I have been doing the xmas thing. No worries about the scope as I am sure it will find a worthy home oneday. I am glad you have one. The reason I suggested you use one has been well covered by other members. I have on more than one occasion seen people using meters and not realising that they can often give false readings when measuring anything pulsed. The scope gives you a much clearer and accurate picture.
I am pleased you shared some insights about your abilities to see aruas and your magic touch. I would like to share some of my observations and experiences with you (yes I can see certain things too so that proberbly makes us both crazy)and even parenting experiences (I was a part time singledad with daughters for many years).
However , I have many things I would like to talk to you about but this is not the right place as it is an excellent thread that needs to stay on topic.
Please drop me a line at markdansie@bigpond.com
Thanks Bill and jeanna and everyone else for some great reading and thought provoking ideas. Please all have a great newyear.
Kind Regards
Mark
PS i will be in Canada and the States latter this month.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on December 31, 2009, 11:08:07 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on December 31, 2009, 10:42:34 PM
Yes I am sure this is different
I am pretty sure what you had is a kind of floro tube ..........this is wire with insulation that glows when high enough voltage is in it.

gary

Edit

I do not think that this wire is extremely bright
They say it is like a neon tube ........only flexable

now i under stand! that IS KOOL SH!FT ! so .... now all you need is a optical sencer ... to sence when the wire is bright and trigger cap dump to second stage ... perfect!

w

What if..... it was multi stage ABOUT 1 RING .. hummmm starts from first stage charges up stage 2 and 3 and stage 1 stops feeding you 808 between 2 and 3 and use 1 as ou put .....

lol : )

well i got to finish the tunner the pnp side .. then hook it all up and test it out !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 01, 2010, 01:17:37 AM

Happy New Year to all of my friends here at our world famous Joule Thief topic!!!!!!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 01, 2010, 10:32:07 AM

wow

i have done some of my first pnp tests

WOW is the only word to explain!

i reccomend others try it ... i will say i have had my meter peeked on the ac setting and read up into 2000v so i do wonder it went nuts.... lol on the dc setting too !

wild !

ist

pnp pic unit

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on January 01, 2010, 01:56:47 PM

@ Ist
You put together a fair few projects, where do you get all your materials from?
merv

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on January 01, 2010, 02:17:20 PM

Hi guys in this video it is saying that if a diode is put between coil and base; voltage is doubled.
Have a look.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWErsu3Oo2I&NR=1

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 01, 2010, 04:12:55 PM

Quote from: guruji on January 01, 2010, 02:17:20 PM
Hi guys in this video it is saying that if a diode is put between coil and base; voltage is doubled.
Have a look.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWErsu3Oo2I&NR=1

Not really true , you can get the same voltage , by tuning the base resistor(pot).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 01, 2010, 04:55:10 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on December 31, 2009, 07:16:24 PM
@jeanna

If i remember correctly , in the hairpin circuit demonstration , Karl said he could run furnace on it...

On 7 watt of 10 000 volts ...

Mark,
Do you remember where he did that?
Or a way to find out more?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 01, 2010, 05:06:46 PM

@jeanna

I would start by watching the movie again , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsS0BeVeIwM , i remember him saying he could fun furnace on it .

I don't remember witch one tho.

@all

I have a fun discovery , i have made a regular jt with secondary , then took a second toroid and put a few turns on it and connected in series to one side of the jt secondary the voltage lowered by 5 volts , adding a magnet to the second toroid got the voltage back up .

So i have used a magnet but one a secondary core ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 01, 2010, 05:15:31 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 01, 2010, 05:06:46 PM
@jeanna

I would start by watching the movie again , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsS0BeVeIwM , i remember him saying he could fun furnace on it .

I don't remember witch one tho.

@all

I have a fun discovery , i have made a regular jt with secondary , then took a second toroid and put a few turns on it and connected in series to one side of the jt secondary the voltage lowered by 5 volts , adding a magnet to the second toroid got the voltage back up .

So i have used a magnet but one a secondary core ...

Thanks Mark, I am loading this up now.

Your secondary in series is like what I have been doing next door.
I am sooo glad you want to do this.
It gives so much back.

That one set of pulses goes on for ever, it seems.
And there is such a variety of ways to extract energy from those pulses.

My guess is that if you at least match the number of turns on the new toroid to those which are on the original secondary, you will have tuned the toroid to compliment the pulses and the volts will not go down but they will go up.

OH YEAY,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 01, 2010, 06:05:18 PM

@all

I have found this 6 part series http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhuSn6sc7sc

Really worth a watch !!!!!

Eric Dollard Tesla Longitudinal wave Energy SBARC Ham Radio with Chris Carson

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 01, 2010, 08:14:38 PM

Rite-Aid is selling 30 warm white LED Christmas strings for $3 (half price from $5.99). Jeanna should like these because they have the pine cone diffuser on the bulbs (removable). They will not work from plug, but if the wires are undone so that you are just using the wire with the LEDs on it they will all light from my 2B-10C-80P coil.

These are good for beginners. They will each take the full 800 volt JT output in either polarity without burning out (lights both ways). So there is no need to worry about burning them out.

EDIT: CORRECTION They will take the full output either way once or twice then they burn out.

They seem to have a 113 ohm resistor in series with each diode. That should keep them safe up to about 100 volts; also wasts a lot of power.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 01, 2010, 09:01:53 PM

hello everyone!

welcome to 2010

last night b4 lauren went to bed she made me 2 little buggs she called them ... and the day b4 she drew me a nice picture ... kids are the best gift of all! lets just say there love buggs .... ; )

lol

so i dugg out the 2 cell fone batteries i have from old smashed junk.... i have used them on tests in the past ... there 3.7vdc lion lol 1100mah i dugg out also an old charger ring i made .. and hooked it up 1 of the cell fone batteries were COMPLEATLY DEAD the other full charge so i have been rechargeing the dead one its almost done ... i started from a really dead battery ... and then swapped to another dead one .. been bout 7 hours.. from 0 volts its at 3.183 vdc ..... from 2 well drained aa in 7 hours ... they are charged in a normal way ...

what im doing is building A COMPLEATE COIL TESTING / TUNEING TOOL ...

i have a c 3000mah avalanche rechargeable i willl replace the aa with then maybe a solar to charge it ... that will be the power supply for the tester / tuner board on the other side i will have SECONDARY testing ...

3.2vdc ... it DOES NOT DROP WHEN I TURN OFF THE CHARGER ...

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 01, 2010, 09:04:10 PM

@mk1

Weird worked a few hours on the below Tesla Hairpin Circuit. Hope it helps. Power can be drawn from the standing waves without screwing up the resonance of the transmission line. If the transmission line terminates so that all transmitted power is returned to the generator then a small amount of current is of course needed to overcome resistive losses in the transmission system only. So if Tesla had his way a 1megawatt power plant could produce tetrawatts or more of load work. Time for another Wardenclyffe Tower powered by a few kilowatts to supply enough energy to move all the cars on the road in and out of every major city on the Eastern Seaboard.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 01, 2010, 09:13:44 PM

@sparks

The set up you have posted , is a modern version of Tesla , the only missing part is the power source , or is that running from the motor on the hairpin ?

:o

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 01, 2010, 09:22:41 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 01, 2010, 06:05:18 PM
@all

I have found this 6 part series http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhuSn6sc7sc

Really worth a watch !!!!!

Eric Dollard Tesla Longitudinal wave Energy SBARC Ham Radio with Chris Carson

wow ...

good vid bro!

:) my meter does DB.....

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 01, 2010, 09:36:53 PM

The loop is closed already through the scalar field potential. The generator output windings are in series resonance with the highvoltage transformer core and the added capacitors already. Once the whole thing starts oscillating the generator is pretty much out of the picture until the resistance in the circuit starts to dampen the oscillations. The spikes are being generated by the spark gap and it is here that gain in the circuit starts. The spikes impressed on the Tesla centerfed transformer induce very high voltages which are converted to shockwaves in the capacitors attached to the hairpin. The tesla coil primary winding can go from 0to 30kv and back to O in less than a nanosecond. I have yet to see any semiconductor do that. That kind of oscillation starts to warp things. Photon energy starts going in instead of out.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 01, 2010, 10:14:27 PM

thank you sparks

this is important to know where the line is drawn ... i like the ways i have choosen this time round .. as i need not concern of warping things ... feroite is a great core ..

plus this is not really required to achieve useable engery ...

i like the pnp npn unit ... winde it up to resonance of material transmit to 9 with the colpase .. but i think it needs be scanned first ... to find material mass resonance ...! then winde it to the exact freq ... and pick it out the reciever ... lol

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 02, 2010, 12:07:34 AM

Quote from: sparks on January 01, 2010, 09:36:53 PM
..... ..... The spikes are being generated by the spark gap and it is here that gain in the circuit starts. .....

The trouble is that it makes too much noise.
It is a terrible sound.
Anyone who demonstrates it on youtube cannot talk over it while it is on.

The work is not finished, but this is my reason for wanting to use the JT or such solid state pulse maker to produce the same thing... but quietly.
It must be possible.
I am SURE that Tesla would have made a quiet version as soon as the transistor was introduced.

@MK1. I watched those videos and they are helpful. Thank you.
@Sparks have you not been able to produce the same effect but with a solid state device?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 02, 2010, 01:03:23 AM

in closeing for tonight guys ... i took out the 1f super cap out

i can charge it and burn 2 leds normal and watch my super cap climb in charge ...

just thought i would share it with ya!

ill make a video tommorow

nite!

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 02, 2010, 02:26:37 AM

@Jeanna

As the radio world started to push the envelope with producing shorter wavelengths it became increasingly difficult to create a valve that would hold up. Resonance would setup inside the tubes themselves. The standing waves or reflecting energy would create nodes and antinodes inside the tube with the accompanying polarized electrostatic potential between different parts of the tube. The resulting discharge of this unwanted voltage would melt the tube down. This is why the cyclotron or microwave oven was developed. That is why we dont put metal objects inside microwave ovens. The standing waves create nodes and antinodes on the metals and the electrostatic potentials rise high enough in the metal to ionize air. The ionized air is then a perfect conductor between different parts of the metal and the sparks start flying. Radio people want to produce one standing wave at the transmitted frequency so that the node of the wave ends up on the top of their antennae. So for each oscillation only one wave is produced which travels on out of the antennae and dissipates into space. Whereas Tesla wanted his waves to be reflected so he wouldnt waste energy pumping the antennae circuit. He built a system where the oscillator is the antennae. The standing wave ratio is pumped up to infinity. Each oscillation staying inside the antennae. He built his famous bifilar wound pancake coil which is an rc tank and once excited will selfoscillate for a long long time. Each input increasing the power in the circuit. What is called the scalar potential recognizes the energy density of space. This cold current flows towards the oscillator out of everything then disappears. I have seen it and have no idea where it goes or where it comes from. It can be interrupted by metals and coils in the near field of the oscillator I am told and originates in the Earth itself. It does not travel inside a conductor but along its surface if the conductor is insulated. Weird science.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 02, 2010, 03:22:48 AM

New video on the Tube of a Super Joule Thief:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzlMHlnK2DM

I just found this and 2 guys pm'd me about it on youtube. One guy said Lidmotor is already going to build one. this circuit will work with an inductor made of only 1 turn of insulated wire, no core at all. It uses 2 transistors, one npn and one pnp.

Worth seeing.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 02, 2010, 10:05:36 AM

i built one of those two weeks ago...
theres a reason i didn't report back here with info...
he is lighting a 1.2 volt led with it... that should tell you something there..
before i could get it to light a 3 volt led i had to change alot of the circuit and then it use way more ma's

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8564.msg218934#new (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8564.msg218934#new)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on January 02, 2010, 02:28:17 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 02, 2010, 03:22:48 AM
New video on the Tube of a Super Joule Thief:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzlMHlnK2DM

I just found this and 2 guys pm'd me about it on youtube. One guy said Lidmotor is already going to build one. this circuit will work with an inductor made of only 1 turn of insulated wire, no core at all. It uses 2 transistors, one npn and one pnp.

Worth seeing.

Bill

Hi Bill,
I left a reply to this in another thread of a circuit I use, see attachment.
BTW can you open it up and post it hear for me by any chance. Thanks Bill regards Merv.
Electronic solid states setups / Joule Thief / Re: New Jewel Thief "Resonate LCR Circuit" Much less energy draw.... on: January 01, 2010, 07:11:46 PM
I use a similar circuit and it's very useful either as a self oscillating boost circuit or driven by an external oscillator. I made a simple white led bedside lamp run from a single niMH 1.5v rechargeable cell some time back. The circuit is quite efficient and 10MA-20MA is typical, also ready available inductors can be used. I have attached a copy my design, as can be seen it's very similar. Merv.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 02, 2010, 02:43:51 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 02, 2010, 03:22:48 AM
New video on the Tube of a Super Joule Thief:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzlMHlnK2DM

I just found this and 2 guys pm'd me about it on youtube. One guy said Lidmotor is already going to build one. this circuit will work with an inductor made of only 1 turn of insulated wire, no core at all. It uses 2 transistors, one npn and one pnp.

Worth seeing.

Bill

I have not built this circuit yet, but I was planning to do it some day. It should work. Make the inductance as large as possible. It is not as simple as a regular JT and will be more picky about component values, but it does not need a toroid.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 02, 2010, 02:47:09 PM

i dont think thats all that special eather bill lol

i did much of this a few years ago now ...... lol and MANY MANY THINGS i dont talk bout !

agin i just posted a better tip not long ago ... not the same as pnp npn darlenting ... but much better ...

anyhow

what im doing now ... KICKS A$$!

thank you!

W

MY LEDS ARE BLIND YOU BRIGHT! have a look

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 02, 2010, 03:00:00 PM

Crowclaw's circuit:

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 02, 2010, 03:01:51 PM

i have built this circuit long ago and it does perform quiet nice
you can change some parts and get the ma draw
and you can also build it with one transistor if you put the right cap
from the front of the inductor to the base of the transistor

http://www.joulethief.com/kit.php (http://www.joulethief.com/kit.php)

the schematic is at the bottom of page

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on January 02, 2010, 03:47:30 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 02, 2010, 03:00:00 PM
Crowclaw's circuit:

Many thanks Bill. Merv

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 02, 2010, 03:53:55 PM

IMHO, chiliqueen's circuit is not a joule thief.
I do not see a bifilar (centertapped) primary on a toroid... or even without a toroid.

I always seem to be going in the opposite direction from the crowd.

While I am dreaming and working on downloading information about how this is done without a transistor, some others are adding transistors.

I did even buy a pnp to match the npn because suchayo asked me to replicate his design which I think is a lot like this one, but somehow, I just have other things to work on that seem more free.

@crowclaw in the beginning 100 pages of this thread there can be seen many circuits (both simple jt with secondary and gadget's fiji mod) that use 20mA or less and drive many leds.
The lamp at my bedside table has 24 leds and runs with that little amount of mA. It has run for over a month of normal use and I expect 6 months will be minimum before a recharge will be needed.

@All, So, why use a second transistor???

Why not expand on the principles that have been shown lately?
For instance,
xee2 had a filament bulb lighting from kooler's circuit.
This is real potential.

Why not follow up on this and take it to higher limits?

BTW
I am coming to the conclusion that switches cannot take the effects of the higher volts.
For the second time and second switch, I have seen that the unmodified led bulb, which keeps the High voltage oscillating after the switch is off, has drained a battery over night to the point of leaking.
It was a cheap chinese AAA so I tossed it and washed the battery holder, but this needs to be solved.
We need a better way to switch the battery on and off.
I think an extension of Bill's idea or some kind of physical removal of the battery wire with easy replacement in the dark is good to work on.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 02, 2010, 04:10:26 PM

Quote from: jeanna on January 02, 2010, 03:53:55 PM

@All, So, why use a second transistor???

Why not expand on the principles that have been shown lately?
For instance,
xee2 had a filament bulb lighting from kooler's circuit.
This is real potential.

jeanna
the circuit xee2 and me ar working on does indeed light small bulbs
i'll make a video soon showing it.. it just to cold in my cellar to work right now..
the whole reason for me trying to light bulbs is to make heat with low ma draw

but till video day i have another circuit schematic here that i use in solar lites
it last 6-10 hours on a AAA battery... very much like a JT..lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 02, 2010, 04:39:09 PM

Jeanna:

I may have misunderstood you earlier about your switch. Are you trying to turn on and off your pick-up coil leads (HV)? If so, no wonder you have problems with it. If you do that, your JT is still "on" even though you have turned "off" the HV leads, and it will drain the battery. Just get a decent toggle switch and cut your power on and off from the positive side of the battery line like I did. The switch then only has to be able to handle the bat's 1.5 volts and mA's and I believe my switch is rated for at least 12 volts and probably much higher. (I got it from Home Depot) My switch is inline (series) with the lead coming off the + side of the battery...it then goes out of the switch to the 35 ohm wire wound rheostat and then to the base resistor (VR in this case) and then to the base. You should not have any problems this way.

If I am still not understanding your problem, then ignore the above.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 02, 2010, 04:49:38 PM

@all

I make a proposition , first lets make a jt that truly makes ac , then lets make a real mag amp.

There are some really knowledgeable people around , i wish we could all make it together , i know Jeanna is up for it .

What do you guys think?

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 02, 2010, 05:08:05 PM

i am up for your Proposition 65 ... mk1
i'll try the making ac from the jt
cause i have had no luck making a working mag amp
2 months ago i worked many hours a week trying to get it to work
trying toroids and e-cores... all i got was a voltage loss... but i am not very smart on this stuff..
but will try for sure
i'm more of a experimenter than a mathematician...
nothing like ( trial and error )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 02, 2010, 05:21:50 PM

@kooler

Thank , lets start with the ac joule thief , i know how to get close to an ac signal, but it doesn't peek under the 0v line enough ...

We will most likely need a second transistor , not unlike the circuit Xee posted a while back.

Also we need to make sure we got the right toroid for the job , that will saturate , and a square hysteresis curve.

Also we need to find more info on those , usually info before October 1954
that is when the started to hide it.

I will go trough all the info i have stored over the years .

The reason i like the mag amp is that it needs a dc source , i think that dc element could be done by magnets . Not unlike SM toys...

Mark

Also for Mark , if you are still willing to give a scope , i think you should give it to Xee , I really need one my self , but giving it to Xee would help the cause...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 02, 2010, 05:42:11 PM

Mk1 & kooler

I am doing other things now. But here is an AC circuit I posted quite a while ago. It is not really a JT since it uses capacitive feedback instead of inductive feedback.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 02, 2010, 05:43:12 PM

look this is how you do IT 4 REAL!

I JUST MADE A VIDEO IN THE DARK SO YOU CAN SEE

silly humans!

W

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUptNKEno48

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYZOBFySGaM

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 02, 2010, 07:02:34 PM

@ Mk1 & kooler

This circuit has high voltage AC output. Still at experimental stage.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 02, 2010, 07:06:01 PM

@all

I seems we don't need ac for the mag amp ...

this is my conclusion after reading http://www.tpub.com/content/neets/14180/css/14180_140.htm

On the first page , you see a mag amp controller , not a amplifier , all the details are in the following pages they even put a bridge at the input from the ac , it needs rectification ...

So my guess would be pulsed dc should do ...

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 02, 2010, 07:40:11 PM

MK1
I am glad to see the pulsed dc is the right thing.
I want to say that my reason to do this is the great possibility that all transistors will soon fail.
I think I am seeing the beginnings of this.
It is pretty sad to see a whole double handful of transistors that are no longer much good just because they were sitting near the window.
eesh.
If the mag amp can start a circuit, then the increase is possible by using inductors to re-pulse the original pulses.
(I do believe stubblefield made a mag amp so we do have some kind of model.)

@Bill,
Let me try to describe the switch problem.
The switch is in the red pos wire of the battery where it normally is in a dc circuit.
The joule thieftoroid and all primary parts are connected to the transistor etc, the jt secondary is hooked to the pos and neg areas of the unmodified bulb.

So, it turns on and off with the switch.
Except it does not turn off once it has turned on.

The unmodified bulb has capacitors in its circuitry which hold juice even when the switch is off .
As that drains out , which is into the secondary, the secondary stimulates the primary and restarts the primary oscillation.
This then recharges the caps in the bulb.
The thing is the most complete joule thief because it never stops until the battery is at 0.005v!

I did not believe this the first time, but it repeated once with the same original switch, then again yesterday in an entirely different toroid and switch but the same unmodified bulb.
So if the battery wire is moved far enough away that no arcing can happen it should work .

It is a strange problem, and actually could lead to an overunity circuit by someone better than I, but it is very annoying at the moment. ;)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 02, 2010, 08:19:00 PM

A friend gave me some xenon tubes so I made a video of them using the kooler JT+SCR circuit with 0.5 uF capacitance. This and two more videos using this circuit are posted on YouTube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viM_vsXVVHk

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 02, 2010, 09:23:48 PM

nice video xee2
3 tubes thats alot of volts
lol.....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on January 02, 2010, 09:52:39 PM

Quote from: xee2 on January 02, 2010, 02:43:51 PM
I have not built this circuit yet, but I was planning to do it some day. It should work. Make the inductance as large as possible. It is not as simple as a regular JT and will be more picky about component values, but it does not need a toroid.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8564.msg218736#msg218736 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8564.msg218736#msg218736)

I thought this was interesting as well, ..this doesn't solve any problems with regard to removing the paths from positive to negative though, ..the original Joule thief was intended to bounce voltage up same as this one. I think this is a jtc, having a toroid doesn't classify or declassify; just as well, having a secondary may as well be the new standard now days

everyone seems to be working on transformers, this seems as interesting alternative, i've tested the circuit and am reading anomalous activity on the NPN transistor. I can't get a frequency reading on it, nor can I get an ohmic resistance across its C-E ..when the circuit is on.

I'm using a 2n3904 and a 2n3905 ( to keep things relatively sane )...I'm hoping the material characteristics are identical.

Quote from: jeanna on January 02, 2010, 03:53:55 PM
...
I always seem to be going in the opposite direction from the crowd.

While I am dreaming and working on downloading information about how this is done without a transistor, some others are adding transistors.
...
@All, So, why use a second transistor???

Why not expand on the principles that have been shown lately?
For instance,
xee2 had a filament bulb lighting from kooler's circuit.
This is real potential.

Why not follow up on this and take it to higher limits?

BTW
I am coming to the conclusion that switches cannot take the effects of the higher volts.
For the second time and second switch, I have seen that the unmodified led bulb, which keeps the High voltage oscillating after the switch is off, has drained a battery over night to the point of leaking.
It was a cheap chinese AAA so I tossed it and washed the battery holder, but this needs to be solved.
We need a better way to switch the battery on and off.
I think an extension of Bill's idea or some kind of physical removal of the battery wire with easy replacement in the dark is good to work on.

thank you,

jeanna

I've been getting at the voltage oriented angle, so have many others, that is to say. We should approach this device in a voltage oriented manner, with a little as possible flowing wastefully.

I think we should try using a mosfet or a jfet, and do away with the current flowing from base to emitter - , this may cut 10 to 20% off our current use, ..just as well, the switching and resonance can can be fine tuned without the confusion of whether or not the transistor is all the way on or what.

I think most modal fets will iether be one or off when operating, no partiality, and have high switching mode capabilities, since most of us are working at kHz frequencies, most fets will get the job done.

Personally, i'm looking for one in the off position, and activated by voltage - such as it is, the only thing I have to do is create a voltage difference, and the oscillations ensue. The voltage oriented gate would allow us to utilize the aspects of the circuit for voltage oriented effects.

As for the winding, i think fewer winding would be needed because greater transient voltages will be present on the secondary.. The coil to base would be minimal, and..

as was asked, with regard to why more than one transistor - it's a matter of creating coherent sine waves which serve to create long lasting voltage oriented florescent light - otherwise the joule thief is just pulsing DC.

When the circuit is operated with minimal coils to base, two fets, and two medium coils to collectors, and one massive secondary, AC will be produced as high voltages, using minimal current, and at resonance with the toroid.

[ there will never not be resonance in these circuits, only an optimum setting for output ] which the circuit doesn't know about - it just goes into resonance.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 02, 2010, 10:44:51 PM

J

i missed why your transistors are blowen ... there many work arounds other than transistor ... next best is A MOTOR !

aside that there spark gaps mechanical switch tubes optical magnetic .. THEN THERES NEO ZAP ROTATING TIMEING WHEELS ..

so there lots of ways aside ss but ss works ok ... unless you for see problems that may render ss useless if this is so i like tubes .. next to impossible to blow!

w

i have managed to drain my super cap to 2 vdc ... and i think it is leakage that did this as the leds quit burning some where round 2.2vdc -2.1vdc so...... this is good ... there is always A RESERVE ON MY CAPS even after you leave the light on ....

this is only basic jt tap point... i have base ... plus WHATEVER I MAKE MY COIL DO ... still and i can CLOSE LOOP IT RIGHT NOW ... lmfao so yay whatever ... lol its still my work it dont matter how it is done ... and RESONANCE IS AN EFFECT! NOT THE CAUSE!

j you NEED MY ORBIT! ; )

IT IS A CAP GONE INTO SELF OSCOLATION .. AND SENT TO WORK! AGIN ... NO TRANSISTOR PEROID!

then you can hand pulse it to tune it ... pos or neg if you want a FASTER PULSE YOU USE POS if you want a slower pulse you want neg ... then you could MAG AMP THAT....

AND GAP IT TO A LOAD ...

literly a million ways to the same ... but its that little KICK OF TESLAS ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 02, 2010, 11:35:03 PM

so how might a single soul sync a cap with the WHEEL WORK OF NATURE ?

hummmm

i aint telling for reasons i have previsouly explained!

thank you

W

I barly get a thank you now ... for what i have done ... so i watch many chase there tails ... and shake my head! and say 1 day they might figure it out ... maybe 1 day .... i will not give more than i currently have as most FAIL TO COMPREHEND WHAT I have done ... and if they do you can bet THEY RAN AWAY WITH IT THINKING THERE WERE GONNA GET RICH AS I REDISCOVER WHO I AM

LOL

FOOLS .. hehehehe

none the less im still here and im still telling you guys ...

and my work has not changed ... same old thing it always was ...

same old soul i always was!

ecept this time im a SHORT ALIEN not A TALL ONE! LOL ;)

and im a power lion! i got 1 hella roar and damm sharp CLAWS! !!!

this brings up a SONG!

NONE OTHER THAN JC HIMSELF! :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7K4jH7NqUw

MY BEST FRIENDS CALL ME CASH!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twyYIPhSa3U

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 03, 2010, 01:14:52 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80wgOtVEjZk&feature=related

YAWN..... why did dad place a green crystal ... ? b4 they said good bye! :) ;) of course i know ...... lol looks like emrold ... but its not.... lol..... ITS GREEN PREIDOT! LMFAO and GUESS WHAT IT CONTROLS THE WHOLE ZODIAC! HEHEHEHE! ; )

OOOOUUUUCCCCHHHHH!

WHERE THE HECK ARE MY SIBLINGS ....

W?

my tuner has been at rest now almost 7 hours this is the resulting charge in my super cap! after the leds stoped liteing and leakage has drained in 7 hours i still have 1.926vdc.....

now if you want to get sneekie ... this is where the GADGETMALL WIDGET FITS ... WITH 1 MA DRAW ... you drain out the cap when the lights are not being used ... you BOOST the voltage and feed it back to the source ... when the unit is at its resting state ...

THATS THE ONLY USE I HAVE AT THE MOMENT FOR SOMETHING THAT USES SOOOO LITTLE ENGERY....

: )
FATHER BECOMES THE SUN AND THE SUN BECOMES THE FATHER !

RA = H

so all this brings up yet another question why did i leave my self my sheild ? lol ;) hummmm why do i wear my H hat ? ding ding !!!! we have a win er !

thank you dad ... I LOVE YOU

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 03, 2010, 01:33:37 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 02, 2010, 10:44:51 PM
J

i missed why your transistors are blowen ... there many work arounds other than transistor ... next best is A MOTOR !

Hi ist,
I am not really sure.
My best guess is that it is a blast that came in through the window.
All the transistors in the box on the window-sill have gone bad.
They are half bad.
They operate at about half or less of what they did last week,
The rest of my transistors inside the house or inside the applications are fine.
These came from different purchases at different times.
The only ones I can use to a high voltage are the metal ones.
All the plastic ones are gone (half-gone)

Quoteaside that there spark gaps

horrible noise

Quote
mechanical switch

breaks after 200M pulses or about 60 minutes of use.

Quotetubes

hot and amps expensive and expensive and hard to get.

Quoteoptical magnetic

?? ?? what is this?? ??

Quote
.. THEN THERES NEO ZAP ROTATING TIMEING WHEELS ..

I have never understood what this is.

Quoteso there lots of ways aside ss but ss works ok ... unless you for see problems that may render ss useless if this is so i like tubes .. next to impossible to blow!

Since we are not going to get a system that uses these inventions, we need to make them easy to make and easy to replicate so people can make their own...

I don't mine hand pulsing something one or 2 pulses, and I am thinking of this as a decent way to throw a switch.
I am working in my mind to make a mag amp. So, I wound a beginning today.
We'll see.

I do still have the 2N2222A in cans.
thank you for your kind suggestions,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 03, 2010, 01:47:32 AM

j

i think if you think this world needs orbit ...

you should release it ...

i just think it is going to 3rd base and skipping first and second ...

that should read optical or magnetic .... optical magnetic .. i have not seen it yet! lol does not mean it can not be done!

tubes work with out fail ... and WE NEED TUBE BUILDERS... LOL ooooo there jobs for A WEEK COUNTRY... LOL

I WANT 1 V 1 MA TUBES ... AND LOW RESISTANCE RECTIFIER TUBES FOR VHF AND UHF!

you see i have all thease wants ... and i have all thease needs ... and i cant even get squat!

so maybe i need to take more of my toys back still ! i cant even give the damm rings away ... let alone sell one so i can put a bit of bread on the table ... this world WOULD SOONER BUY GARBAGE ... AND BUY IT AGIN AND AGIN IN 6 MONTHS CUZ IT BLEW UP ...

good god! WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH HUMANS! have they all gone madd?

lol

w

LOL THE HUMAN RACE GOT A SPECIAL CASE OF MADD COW !! LMFAO

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 03, 2010, 02:58:06 AM

Quote from: kooler on January 02, 2010, 05:08:05 PM
i am up for your Proposition 65 ... mk1

Yes i do make many proposition , lol , 65 is most likely under shooting ...

You know what was proposition 1 ?

Adding a secondary to the joule thief ;)

I have studied the mag amp all day , if we have the toroid for it , i really think we could do it .

Some of those toroid from old PC power sup are chokes some are mag amp core.

So far i see using 3 toroid .

Its basically the secondary from the joule thief with a coil on a core on one side , and one on the other side . each core getting one side of the kick.
Those two additional core are wound together with a coil on each , this coil is connected to a dc source with a rheostat .

The load is connected to the open ends of the secondary with a diode.

I bridge could also be inserted between the secondary of the jt and mag amp.

This is what i got ...

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 03, 2010, 03:54:29 AM

well were on the s man team!

think bout this video and why i posted it ... and just think bout it thats all

ist!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hG0yWIQSQ9g&feature=related

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on January 03, 2010, 08:05:08 AM

@ JEANNA

In one of your posts you said "The lamp at my bedside table has 24 leds and runs with that little amount of mA"

Could you please tell me how to measure how much mA's a Joule thief uses out of a battery, where do you put the negetive DMM-lead and where the positive DMM-lead goes ???
like the Joule thief you are using that has 24 led's at your bedside ! Thanks

And how do you try to use as little ammount as possible of mA's and still light so many LED's ???

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 03, 2010, 10:46:56 AM

i have been running a 12vdc motor on a aa ...

lol

keep in mind it is NOT RUNNING AT 12VDC ... but YES IT RUNS JUST FINE ... 3.2VDC

W

my 12vdc fan motor ran 1 hour and 1 min b4 it came to a stop !

transistor remained ICE COLD ... battery got a tiny bit of heat! it stoped spinning at 2.3vdc !

thank you

here are some pictures ... of what i used to do this test .. just love the name of the motor and there logo... SUN ON MAGNETIC LEVIATION SYSTEM! lol

SECOND PIC CAP AND MOTOR USED IN THIS TEST!

LAST PIC THE ENTIRE SETUP!

i never tryed the super cap yet! : )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 03, 2010, 02:03:41 PM

Quote from: freepow on January 03, 2010, 08:05:08 AM
@ JEANNA

In one of your posts you said "The lamp at my bedside table has 24 leds and runs with that little amount of mA"

Could you please tell me how to measure how much mA's a Joule thief uses out of a battery, where do you put the negetive DMM-lead and where the positive DMM-lead goes ???
like the Joule thief you are using that has 24 led's at your bedside ! Thanks

And how do you try to use as little ammount as possible of mA's and still light so many LED's ???

Your DMM needs to be in series with the positive line coming off the battery to measure amp draw.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 03, 2010, 02:41:53 PM

mk1
i was just joking about Proposition 65 ...
since i solder all my tests together.. (lead poisoning)

'' WARNING: This product contains chemicals known to the State of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm. ''

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_65_(1986) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_65_(1986))

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 03, 2010, 03:04:24 PM

hey i forgot to post the npn tuner in the TOTAL DARK and man was it dark

here is that video ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lK6-sComCNY

and i just finished the 12vdc motor test from npn tuner board video ....

and i will post the link soon !

thank you

w

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 03, 2010, 03:43:55 PM

Quote from: freepow on January 03, 2010, 08:05:08 AM

Could you please tell me how to measure ...

Hi freepow,
As Bill said the volts meter needs to be in series with the pos wire to the battery.
So, in other words, get a 1 ohm or a 10 ohm resistor.
Stick it in series with the pos input to your circuit.
I have a 10 ohm.
So, Then read across the resistor in VOLTS and apply ohm's law
E=IR
I=E/R

then divide the volts you see on your meter by the resistor you put in there.
The only problem is this changes what is happening so much I am no longer convinced that it is valid in absolute terms.
I have started to use a half ohm resistor when I really want to cause as little imbalance as possible.

QuoteAnd how do you try to use as little amount as possible of mA's and still light so many LED's ???

There are a couple of ways.
The best 'learning' way is to play with a cap across the base resistor. This causes an additional repetition of pulses at no cost to the battery and giving a great addition to the output.

The cheap and easy way is to stick the leds in parallel and hope they last.
I am beginning to think they will last because the frequency of spiky volts does not wear them out unevenly in the same way that sending amps through them does.
The cheap chinese flashlight syndrome is that they over drive the leds with too many batteries and connect them in parallel.
What happens is the led that has the least internal resistance will shine very bright then die. This can happen in a few days... or minutes.
I have not seen this happen at all with high frequency hi voltage spikes, and even if it does happen eventually, it will take a whole lot longer.
But I have yet to see a problem unless you use too much voltage to begin with.

So, you might just pop a single led with 14v hi freq.
If you have 4 leds in parallel and throw 14v hi freq at them it will pop all 4.
So, be careful.
I like to start with 3 turns and add turns to very very bright then take one out.
or
Put some in series and check first.

The example of my globe table lamp is that I have 6 leds in series and each one has 3 others in parallel to it so each of the 6 is really 4 which totals 24 lights-worth but the volts cost is what will drive 6.

I made the toroid a long time ago any my memory tells me that I had 48 turns on the secondary.
That is very safe for 6 in series.
8 turns each is very bright but not killer bright, and is made up by having 24 of them.
All on a 10 cent toroid tor-23, with a 2N3904 and a AA battery.

I put a lot of info into this explanation.
I hope it is not confusing.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 03, 2010, 04:26:14 PM

Quote from: freepow on January 03, 2010, 08:05:08 AM

Could you please tell me how to measure how much mA's a Joule thief uses out of a battery, where do you put the negetive DMM-lead and where the positive DMM-lead goes ???

Put your meter directly in series with the battery.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 03, 2010, 05:12:09 PM

Quote from: kooler on January 03, 2010, 02:41:53 PM
mk1
i was just joking about Proposition 65 ...
since i solder all my tests together.. (lead poisoning)

'' WARNING: This product contains chemicals known to the State of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm. ''

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_65_(1986) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_65_(1986))

No worry there , btw did they also get rid of fluoride ... major cause of arthritis and some cancer , dull down population ...

Also , i have a suggestion , you could try a flyback jt the way Resonance man (Gary) did it , to load the first cap before the second stage , i am sure it would load the cap real quick, raising the freq of the second stage...

He basically took everything of except the high voltage coil , and wound on some jt coils.

I have 2 or 3 flyback , i will destroy one ;D

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 03, 2010, 05:33:41 PM

i added some GAGA in the vid mix ... as the first video was to long for youtube ...

so i shortened it up ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z92Jko8Nt6M

12vdc motor tests ... thinking NPN PNP PULSE MOTOR NEXT ... MAYBE ...

W

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 03, 2010, 05:41:15 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 03, 2010, 05:12:09 PM
Also , i have a suggestion , you could try a flyback jt the way Resonance man (Gary) did it , to load the first cap before the second stage , i am sure it would load the cap real quick, raising the freq of the second stage...

He basically took everything off except the high voltage coil , and wound on some jt coils.

Mark,
Would you please say this again.
(I corrected one word which I believe will help people understand but)---

I still do not know where this cap goes.
Are you saying to put a cap between the Collector and the Collector coil?

thank you

----
@all,
I have wound a dual toroid somewhat as others have done, but I believe differently.
It is giving me very high volts. I think they are also very thin because my scope sees them but I think many of them do not show up on the screen.

I overlapped the 2 toroids and wound the 3T base coil onto one
then over the overlap, I wound the 9T Collector coil and connected them center tapped and put this contraption into a circuit as the jt toroid.
It lit the light easily and well, so I wrapped a 9T secondary onto each toroid.
They seemed to be slightly different with the slightly higher amount being on the toroid that had only the collector winds on it... the dc toroid.

Then I read another mag amp webpage, which made the point that the dc toroid should give the output, so, I put them together. Since they were 2 separate wires, I wound them with a splice in the middle which COULD be seen as another center tap. (I did not use that aspect yet.)

I am getting 172 volts from the 16 to 20 turns. Yikes. But this is not yet able to light a neon so the spikes must be very skinny or maybe most of them are less. . The ones I can see are definitely 172 volts, so I think this is pretty interesting.

I will also try the center tap on a third toroid.

The problem is so far I am still hooked to the transistor.

The good news there is that 2 days ago I removed the neos from the table and yesterday I removed the magnetized lamp, and today the circuit I was working on at 140 v is now up to 500v with no change but time!!

Wow. Those neos are sumtin else!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on January 03, 2010, 05:45:21 PM

:)Thanks all for your help, and especially to Jeanna for a long explanation!

@ Jeanna... how many turns on your toroid... 48 secondary, but whats the other turns ?
Also how much current draw does your bedside joule thief use ?

When I measures my joule thief with AA, it said 200+ ma's but I put DMM neg-lead to (-) on battery and
+ lead to collecter of transistor, is that wrong ?

In the example in photo - where would I put DMM (-) lead and (+) lead to on joule thief in photo to measure how many mA's the joule thief uses out of AA to light LED's ???

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 03, 2010, 06:01:40 PM

Quote from: jeanna on January 03, 2010, 05:41:15 PM
Mark,
Would you please say this again.
(I corrected one word which I believe will help people understand but)---

This is about the circuit kooler and xee are working on , i can't find the schematic .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 03, 2010, 06:08:59 PM

Quote from: freepow on January 03, 2010, 05:45:21 PM
:)Thanks all for your help, and especially to Jeanna for a long explanation!

@ Jeanna... how many turns on your toroid... 48 secondary, but whats the other turns ?
Also how much current draw does your bedside joule thief use ?

When I measures my joule thief with AA, it said 200+ ma's but I put DMM neg-lead to (-) on battery and
+ lead to collecter of transistor, is that wrong ?

If you didn't blow the fuse... nothing! ;)
You need to measure the VOLTS across something like a resistor or a normal diode.
Think of the place being spliced into the red positive battery wire and that should help.
On your pic
I will make a mark and reload your drawing if I can.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 03, 2010, 06:14:33 PM

J you see the GAGA... lol

?

to answer your question ... put a cam flash cap .... where i run my leds and my motor from ... allow it to charge to 120v or as high as you can ..THIS IS WHAT MK1 MEANS BY LOAD IT !

in doing so PROPERLY... this will drive your device to run faster ... i have demoed this in SIMPLE MEANS a long time ago ... via pulse motor

here is the video ... SAME THING .... NO MOVEING PARTS ...

take in the gaga show ... and plug your cam cap and neon there ..

thank you !

w

loading a pulse motor with a cap to cause ACCELERATION! THEN LEAVE IT ALONE .... pull from YOUR MUCH ACCELERATED SECONDARY!

: )

http://www.youtube.com/user/innovationstation#p/u/15/SOSSn7UTWOU

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 03, 2010, 06:24:04 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 03, 2010, 06:01:40 PM
This is about the circuit kooler and xee are working on , i can't find the schematic .

Mark

OIC
It is like the way you taught me to collect the charge in a cap so I could see how much I was making.

@ist,
I am afraid I never understood those things you described so long ago.

But, I did use the cap across the secondary with a bridge and 2 extra diodes which allowed me to know how many volts I was making before I bought the little scope.

thank you.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 03, 2010, 06:27:16 PM

well that really SUX J lol

as it is key!

lol

ist!

THIS IS WHY THERE SELF ACCELERATING MOTORS... THE MORE YOU TAKE AND SLOWLY USE THE FASTER IT WILL RUN THAT IS CLEARLY VISABLE IN MY LAST REPOSTED OLD VIDEO ...

the thing was feeding back to source .... HENCE RECHARGEING ITS SELF AND RUNNING ON ITS SELF.... PLUS I RECHARGED A GEL AND THE DRIVEING BATTERY .... AT THE SAME TIME FROM THE CAP... take 13 12 vdc bateries ... chain them ... 12 in 1 string ... use 1 for power ... and 12 get recharged at 150vdc ... lol

silly nut!

and guess what ... when i hooked up the second battery ... MY MOTOR RPM INCREASED TO MATCH THE RECHARGE LOAD ... THIS IS RECTIFIED DC ...

thank you !

watch it agin!

http://www.youtube.com/user/innovationstation#p/u/15/SOSSn7UTWOU

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 03, 2010, 06:50:21 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 03, 2010, 06:27:16 PM

the thing was feeding back to source .... HENCE RECHARGEING ITS SELF AND RUNNING ON ITS SELF.... PLUS I RECHARGED A GEL AND THE DRIVEING BATTERY .... AT THE SAME TIME FROM THE CAP... take 13 12 vdc bateries ... chain them ... 12 in 1 string ... use 1 for power ... and 12 get recharged at 120vdc ... lol

watch it agin!

http://www.youtube.com/user/innovationstation#p/u/15/SOSSn7UTWOU

Thanks ist, I missed that video.
I have now made a bedini circuit, so I can follow the basic.
What this is showing, if I understand it, is that you have 2 connections to the + of the cap.
1- is feeding it from the bedini output.
2- is charging the + of the running battery and uses a diode to keep the direction right.

you also have the (-) of the cap going to the neg of the running battery.

If all that I repeated is correct, have another question for you.

bedini says the output must first go through a capacitor in order to run a bedini circuit.
Is this how it is supposed to be?

I am getting the feeling you have added something very novel to the bedini circuit.?!

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 03, 2010, 06:57:05 PM

thanks J

:)

no cap on in put .. on this jobbie ... i can totally eliminate ALL BATTERIES ..WITH EASE .. and all motion

HOWEVER ... NOW IM BUILDING SOME TOTALLY KOOL SHIFT! this is how it works

ok

i have the npn tuner i have build and fully demoed ... what is possible by a most basic coil and i dont care the core air if you want ... none the less thos 2 units will power a much LARGER PULSE MOTOR!!!

; )

and so i have it ALREADY HALF BUILT! ONLY I WILL ADD A 10LB .5" THICK X 7.75 " COPPER DISC HPG TO THE PULSE MOTOR .. AND YES YOU GUESSED IT IT WILL RUN FROM A AA

PEACE!

do i need to make it self accelerate too ?

W

lol some clown leaves me a comment your starting to catch up .... lmfao ill leave you in dust sir! hahahaha....

here ya go some pics ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 03, 2010, 07:17:16 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 03, 2010, 06:57:05 PM

i have the npn tuner i have build and fully demoed ... what is possible by a most basic coil and i dont care the core air if you want ... none the less thos 2 units will power a much LARGER PULSE MOTOR!!!

Ah, the elusive running a joule thief from a first level joule thief, eh?

Quoteand so i have it ALREADY HALF BUILT! ONLY I WILL ADD A 10LB .5" THICK X 7.75 " COPPER DISC HPG TO THE PULSE MOTOR .. AND YES YOU GUESSED IT IT WILL RUN FROM A AA

perfect

Quote
do i need to make it self accelerate too ?

If you want to!
Actually the bedini rotorless self accelerates.
It really does do the runaway reaction and needs to be stopped, so go for it!

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 03, 2010, 07:33:05 PM

yess the rotor less... well i will tap mechanical from it ONTOP ALL THE OTHER 10 000 WAYS TO TAP IT LOL

thats what the HPG is for .. but in TRUE REALITY IT IS A FLY WHEEL FOR THE MOTOR ... SO ADDING THE HPG PROVIDES MASSIVE TORQUE TO THE ALREADY POWERFUL

UNIT .. THAT RUNS FROM A AA

so i can now tap generator power mechanically too if i so choose .. i will have plenty of torque

w

BTW I FORGOT TO TELL YOU I COULD SNEEZE FROM 5 ' AND THE ENTIRE MASS WOULD SPINN!!

verry low friction bearing!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 03, 2010, 07:44:25 PM

This is quite wonderful.
I just want to make sure this is a bedini and not a joule thief right?
They are similar but different and I wonder if this is a joule thief running like a bedini or a straight bedini.

great stuff,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 03, 2010, 08:03:44 PM

yes they are diffrent circuits ... similar but diffrent ...

both are useing the 3055 can ...

here is a pic of my bedini unit ... i have never showen it bottom side up ...

but here ya go !

ist

the neon is only a portector .. when i disconnect my out put .. the neon lites SO I DONT BLOW MY CAN from the kick when it IS INTRUPTED .. THE OU PUT THAT IS ..... : )

this unit fires a ringggingggg pulse ... not just flick a coil and make a wheel spinn lmfao ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 03, 2010, 08:39:20 PM

@Inno

You got the spirit my man. Dont let it go. When we use our minds in various pursuits there are created honest to goodness real electrical phenomenon. The mind or thoughts themselves can set the electrical system of the brain into various modes. Meditation has been practiced for thousands of years. This is just using your thoughts to create electrical phenomenon that is able to capture certain frequencies or hetrodyne with certain frequencies that emulate from higher states of ordering. Some folks are better than others at doing this. Some people are really tuned in at birth while alot of others need to practice. When the cornors of the mouth are caused to be drawn up this is one of the most harmonious electrical patterns produced by the brain. In the coming year practice this technique as much as possible. Dont look for reward in the form of riches or whatever. Look for it in the face of another you have excited into a smile.
Thankyou for your hard work and determination inno. :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 03, 2010, 09:50:15 PM

thanks sparks bro !

well i dont know what is wrong with the bedini unit but i cant get it to run i will build a new one ... since i got sick of fiddling with it trying to get it to work ... i decided to see if i could power my magnetic kick coil from my npn tuner board ... of course it works just fine ... AND THIS THING DRAWS LIKE 100MA AT 12VDC .. IN past tests .. on this aa unit ... it will run constant at 7.5vdc!!

and it even makes it squeal but it doen not lite the neon as this unit is set for 12vdc supply ...

thought it was kool i could run it constant at 7.5vdc supply!

ill add a pic

ist

it will lite the neon if i pulse it ...

last pic entire setup

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 03, 2010, 10:03:38 PM

I want to solve the problem of the special switch.
I love these led light bulbs.

I have been testing today's green 500v toroid with the LoA 20leds bulb
I do not have any AA battery holders that work reliably so I am using a AAA battery.
The battery is 1.2v NiMH AAA with 750 mAH
and for 3 hours the light was bright,
and for the next 2 hours it wss more than a decent nite light, and it was still on with the battery down to 0.59v

NOW that is lower than the turn on level of the transistor which is around 0.86v on this particular one... well that is what the base voltage had when it was on earlier.
So, what is happening must be this crazy thing with the caps and resistors setting up something with the toroid that keeps the transistor turning on even when there is not enough in the battery to do this.

It is essentially off, however there are still 20 specs of light coming from the tops of the leds.
This has been 5 1/2 hours.
I will keep it on until it is gone.
I think this is very interesting.
It might be useful too!

jeanna

here it is with a plastic cup as diffuser and plain

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 03, 2010, 10:18:43 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 03, 2010, 09:50:15 PM

well i dont know what is wrong with the bedini unit but i cant get it to run i will build a new one ...

it will lite the neon if i pulse it ...

Maybe the transister blew.
The neon is not supposed to light unless it is shorting... or some explanation.
Maybe the neon was too slow to halt the pop.
Inquorate says he blows up the transistors all the time even when the neons are in place.

So, just to save yourself some trouble change or check the transistor first?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 03, 2010, 10:19:15 PM

Jeanna:

You may be onto finding one of the keys to a self-runner there. Start it with the battery, and then...maybe you don't need one?

Hey, you never know.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 03, 2010, 10:41:11 PM

Quote from: jeanna on January 03, 2010, 10:18:43 PM
Maybe the transister blew.
The neon is not supposed to light unless it is shorting... or some explanation.
Maybe the neon was too slow to halt the pop.
Inquorate says he blows up the transistors all the time even when the neons are in place.

So, just to save yourself some trouble change or check the transistor first?

jeanna

thanks J

i will check it was one of those in the window ya know ... so i bet lol i will change it but i want a new board any ways ...

i have no problem to power the widget from the whats it ... lol then feed back to source .. and pull 10 BASE FEEDS OF DIFFRENT VOLTAGES .. ALL FROM 1 AA AND STILL USE THE SECONDARY ON THE PNP !

w

im one of those crazy ....nutz :) and i didnt fall too far from the tree lol
then youz gotz some those dozzie nuts that fell from the stupid tree and hit every branch on the way down ....

seen lots come and go ....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 03, 2010, 10:53:17 PM

@Jeanna

Your switch isnt working because when you reach a certain frequency and voltage it ionizes the air. This causes a coronal discharge from whatever you are trying to switch which becomes a plasma and then a superconductor. You might want to try a reed switch and a magnet. The reed switches are hermetically sealed and the air removed.
Your transistors are shorting because as I explained earlier the standing waves created in the bifilar resonance are backing up into the transistor. You are on the frindge of creating scalar potential field relativity. To tell turn off all the lights and cover any leds in the circuit. Pitch black. Place a piece of ironwire that is either painted or rusted near the torroid or any number of feet away. If you see it light up with a little blue fuzzy hase bingo.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 03, 2010, 11:03:57 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 03, 2010, 10:19:15 PM

You may be onto finding one of the keys to a self-runner there. Start it with the battery, and then...maybe you don't need one?

Hi Bill,
This is so interesting.
I just came back here to report that at 7:50 the lights are finally out. that is 6 hours on a AAA
the battery dead point is 450v, but it recovered so quickly it was hard to remember.
Whatever it is , it has been below the transistor start point for 2 hours.

There was one thing I wanted to check and I did.

I put a newer battery in and the lights went on very bright, then when I removed the battery, they drained the caps in about 3 seconds, so there was still something in that dying system that was in fact using the battery.

thank you,

Quote from: sparks on January 03, 2010, 10:53:17 PM
@Jeanna

Your switch isnt working because when you reach a certain frequency and voltage it ionizes the air. This causes a coronal discharge from whatever you are trying to switch which becomes a plasma and then a superconductor. You might want to try a reed switch and a magnet. The reed switches are hermetically sealed and the air removed.

Thanks sparks,
I agree that the system is arcing. I think it is arcing over the switch.

QuoteYour transistors are shorting because as I explained earlier the standing waves created in the bifilar resonance are backing up into the transistor

.
The transistors which died were in the window and never used. After I saw I had some bad ones, I checked them all.
I am waiting, because I think I threw too much magnetism their way. At least I hope so. I am not happy to think that radiating transistor killing rays are coming into my window. ;)

Quote
You are on the frindge of creating scalar potential field relativity.

I like the sound of that!

Quote
To tell turn off all the lights and cover any leds in the circuit. Pitch black. Place a piece of ironwire that is either painted or rusted near the torroid or any number of feet away. If you see it light up with a little blue fuzzy hase bingo.

Hmm.
I think it is inside the switch not outside but I will try to arrange things as you described.

Today's circuit has no switch. I snapped a pic. It is on a wooden board.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 04, 2010, 12:21:33 AM

ok last up date for the night NOW IM POWERING FROM 1 AA THE MAGIC MAKER ... 3 17000UF CAPS DRIVEING THE MKC COIL AT 7.9VDC AND CHARGEING THE SUPERCAP AND BURNING THE LEDS ... LOL

GOOD NIGHT ... the thing has ran now over 2 hours and i have secondary ou put of 75vdc on the mkc and i can momontarly pulse the super cap get light and recharge the source ...

simple baby toys ...

w

all that from 1 tap point! what bout my 5 base feeds ... naw this cant be overunity ... it should do more ....

silly humans!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 04, 2010, 01:28:23 AM

mk1
is this something like you were thinking ?????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 04, 2010, 02:06:46 AM

Quote from: kooler on January 04, 2010, 01:28:23 AM
mk1
is this something like you were thinking ?????

I mean your regular circuit but with a flyback jt on the first stage , the cap will fill faster.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 04, 2010, 09:07:11 AM

my mkc and all my units wich are like bedini all have FEEDBACK... for years now !

and are pictured all over this site ...

and have GOOD LOOK AT MY 3 TURN MAGIC MAKER ...

SO WHAT EVER I NEED TO MAKE MONEY .. AND SO I WILL

what i guess i must ebay it ..... GOOD GOD IM ON THE LARGEST RESERCH SITE ON PLANET EARTH IN A BOX WITH A BOAT LOAD OF DIOZZIE NUTZ...

YOU CANT JUST GIVE THEM HIGH TECKNOLAGY YOU GOT TO PUT THEM BACK IN KINDERGARDEN!

AND RE TEACH THEM ...

yawn ...

and then sooon as they learn ... way the dozzies go ... or the WILLIS story ... know it too well!

w

THE SUN IS ON DECK! BROKE AS BROKE CAN BE ... BUT I GOT MY WORK ...

IM MAKEING DIODE MOD BOARDS FOR THE MAGIC MAKER !

WHO BUYS THINGS ? THIS DIODE BOARD will plugg into the magic maker and give 5 feeds ... ontop of eather jt pulse coil flyback ... like i have demoed many days now .... or the secondary ... of the coil if i tap base and not pulse ... then i can use the ou put of the secondary/s ..

no sence applying for the OU PRIZE IT IS A HOAX!

THE ONES THAT CONDUCT THE CONTEST ... ARE THE ONES THAT DONT HAVE THE CORRECT ANSWERS! stands to reason ... lol or why the contest at all?

agin you give them the TRUTH and they argue till there blue in the face and leave ! but yet ... do not disprove my work ...

seems like a carrot for the nutz the fell from the stupid tree!

why the big ram on for something iIi SOLVED YEARS AGO ... ?

?? CANT FIGURE IT OUT ? i gots my work .. AND AINT NOT 1 GONNA TAKE IT!

HERE IS A LINK FOR THE CLOWN! /S LOL

DUH! LOL DUH! HUMMMMMM!

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3852.0

Temple of Horus Description
The 2,000 year old Temple of Horus, almost perfectly preserved, creates an overwhelming impression. Built on the site of an earlier temple, it was dedicated to the sun god Horus, Hathor of Dendera and their son the youthful Harsomtus (Hersemtawi), "Uniter of the Two Lands". The history of its construction and a description of the whole structure are set forth in long inscriptions on the outside of the enclosure wall, particularly at the north end of the east and west sides. The rear part of the complex, the temple proper, was begun in 237 B.C., in the reign of Ptolemy II Euergetes I and completed in 212 under his successor, Philopator. The decoration of the walls with reliefs and inscriptions, interrupted during the troubled reign of
... More >
Epiphanes, was resumed by 176 by Philometor and finished in 147, during the reign of Euergetes II i.e. exactly 90 years after the laying of the foundation stone. Euergetes II also added the large vestibule (completed in 122) and decorated it with reliefs. During the reigns of Ptolemy IX Soter II and Ptolemy X Alexander I the forecourt with its colonnades, the enclosure walls and the pylon were built, but the pylon was decorated with reliefs only in the reign of Ptolemy XII Neos Dionysos. The building was finally completed in 57 B.C. The building material was sandstone. Some of the relief decoration was defaced in Christian times.

The temple was surrounded by a high brick wall, part of which survives. The main gateway was on the S, in the central axis of the temple, and there was a smaller gateway to the W.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on January 04, 2010, 01:08:00 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 03, 2010, 10:19:15 PM
Jeanna:

You may be onto finding one of the keys to a self-runner there. Start it with the battery, and then...maybe you don't need one?

Hey, you never know.

Bill

Maybe putting a capacitor in parallel with the battery in the first place will allow a charge to remain 'in the tank'... removing the battery will ??? ...and then, some signs will appear.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on January 04, 2010, 01:30:59 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 04, 2010, 02:06:46 AM
I mean your regular circuit but with a flyback jt on the first stage , the cap will fill faster.

I have seen that coil before

:)

in case somone wants to make a similar coil that one is made with 3 spools of wire from Radio Shack 2 spools of green ( 75 ft # 26 ) and one spool of gold ( 40 ft #22 )

After removing the core from the flyback transformer I made a tube from a piece of plastic and tape to cover the round part of the core.

I then took one end of the core off and wound the 3 spools of wire around the plastic tube .......using the other half of the core as a handle.
When I got to the end of the #22 wire I just bent the end out of the way and let it hang ........I just kept wrapping the other 2 wires untill they were all on the tube.

I then put the core back together and put some electrical tape over the windings ........and added the primaries
The primary is MK2
It is shown with 3 windings on each leg
I later reduced the white wire that goes to transistor base to one wrap each side.

I never tried putting the 2 #26 windings in series I always used them in parallel .....it had enough voltage for me.

The 2 #26 wires in parallel put out around 450 V with one AA battery .......enough to light a 25 W CFL to about half brightness.

The #22 winding put out around 200 V .......enough to light my 90 LED array very brightly.
I was able to use some inductors to balance the load and run both the CFL and the array at the same time........but one of them was always dim ......it didn't have the power to run both at once at full brightness.

I tried hooking an ignition coil up in series with the the green wires .......( to add flyback ) I fried a 60 LED array and a DMM

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on January 04, 2010, 02:16:21 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 04, 2010, 09:07:11 AM
my mkc and all my units wich are like bedini all have FEEDBACK... for years now !

and are pictured all over this site ...

and have GOOD LOOK AT MY 3 TURN MAGIC MAKER ...

SO WHAT EVER I NEED TO MAKE MONEY .. AND SO I WILL

what i guess i must ebay it ..... GOOD GOD IM ON THE LARGEST RESERCH SITE ON PLANET EARTH IN A BOX WITH A BOAT LOAD OF DIOZZIE NUTZ...

YOU CANT JUST GIVE THEM HIGH TECKNOLAGY YOU GOT TO PUT THEM BACK IN KINDERGARDEN!

AND RE TEACH THEM ...

yawn ...

and then sooon as they learn ... way the dozzies go ... or the WILLIS story ... know it too well!

w

THE SUN IS ON DECK! BROKE AS BROKE CAN BE ... BUT I GOT MY WORK ...

IM MAKEING DIODE MOD BOARDS FOR THE MAGIC MAKER !

WHO BUYS THINGS ? THIS DIODE BOARD will plugg into the magic maker and give 5 feeds ... ontop of eather jt pulse coil flyback ... like i have demoed many days now .... or the secondary ... of the coil if i tap base and not pulse ... then i can use the ou put of the secondary/s ..

no sence applying for the OU PRIZE IT IS A HOAX!

THE ONES THAT CONDUCT THE CONTEST ... ARE THE ONES THAT DONT HAVE THE CORRECT ANSWERS! stands to reason ... lol or why the contest at all?

agin you give them the TRUTH and they argue till there blue in the face and leave ! but yet ... do not disprove my work ...

seems like a carrot for the nutz the fell from the stupid tree!

why the big ram on for something iIi SOLVED YEARS AGO ... ?

?? CANT FIGURE IT OUT ? i gots my work .. AND AINT NOT 1 GONNA TAKE IT!

HERE IS A LINK FOR THE CLOWN! /S LOL

DUH! LOL DUH! HUMMMMMM!

Silly Spaceman

:)

I just thought I would set the record straight.

You have made alot of really impressive stuff ............but that does not mean you have given us anything.

You forget that most of us do not have your experience or intuition about these things .........so yes you have to explain things as if you are talking to children

You seem to talk mostly in your own code.
You know exactly what you mean........ but most of the rest of us are lost ............ tic tic boom
I can only remember 1 schematic from you ........ I think it was for making a PWM from a 555

I would love to know more about how some of your circuits work........but I gave up asking about them long ago............because your answers are in code or sharthand .....they make no sense to me.

I do berlieve that everyone has potential for genius inside of them
I think you have found that potential. ........
Just because understnding and building these kinds of circuits comes easy and natural for you that does not mean that it is easy or natural for the rest of us.

You might think about not calling us silly humans any morec........ why not try normal humans :)

Don't get me wrong here.......I am not saying you are any smarter than anyone else here .......this is just your element more than it is ours .......please keep that in mind.

I am like you ........ I am a genius in some ways........but I am also very dumb in many ways . The dumb is what most people tend to see first.

You could be of great help to the people here ......but so far you have been very little help

To be if great help you WILL have to talk to us like we are dumb .......without treating us like we are dumb
I need all the help I can get .... I need the procress walked through step by step ........I need schematics

Once I can see it in my mind........then I got it ...... My mind is mostly visual.

````````````````````````````````````````````````

One of the ways I am a genius ........I am a peacemaker ........can you feel the peace?

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 04, 2010, 02:22:50 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on January 04, 2010, 01:08:00 PM
Maybe putting a capacitor in parallel with the battery in the first place will allow a charge to remain 'in the tank'... removing the battery will ??? ...and then, some signs will appear.

Hi jadaro,
I will try that today.
Thank you,

jeanna

Quote from Gary

QuoteTo be if great help you WILL have to talk to us like we are dumb .......without treating us like we are dumb
I need all the help I can get .... I need the process walked through step by step ........I need schematics

That is beautifully stated Gary.
Thank you.

I agree, IST.
You have a lot you could share and in the last few days you have begun to make many of your ideas more clear, and you may continue to make them EVEN MORE clear.

Schematics or drawings like the ones that kooler or slayer make are fine... possibly even better for most people to follow.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: IotaYodi on January 04, 2010, 03:03:13 PM

QuoteSchematics or drawings like the ones that kooler or slayer make are fine... possibly even better for most people to follow

Its much quicker for everyone. Long explanations take time to digest and unless you have a photographic memory you have to re read the text. Drawings speed things up tremendously. Using cryptic language just slows things down even more. What kooler did is the way to go if everything is stated. You can print it out and just start building. Though it may take more time to do, having a set of pictures of electronic parts can be easily gathered to save time when doing it this way.
Good stuff folks!
frank

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on January 04, 2010, 03:34:58 PM

Hi All,

Just put together this JT circuit for those who are interested. This uses a small 2n7000 mosfet N channel device. For this experiment I have used a 28+28 turn toroid. 1.75" outer diameter 3/4" inner diameter 1/2 thick, bifilar wound with 9 strand hook up wire ( don't use mag or insulated copper) Supply = 3 volts, current draw = 10Ma. Output unloaded just under 80 volts. See photo's.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on January 04, 2010, 03:36:54 PM

Photo shot of my JT toroid using FET device.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on January 04, 2010, 03:43:40 PM

@ kooler

This idea for presenting your diagrams is first class for any one who can't read schematics. Let's hope that things don't get to complecated though!... must take you some time to do, excellent presentation. Merv

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 04, 2010, 04:29:08 PM

Quote from: crowclaw on January 04, 2010, 03:34:58 PM
Hi All,

Just put together this JT circuit for those who are interested. This uses a small 2n7000 mosfet N channel device. For this experiment I have used a 28+28 turn toroid. 1.75" outer diameter 3/4" inner diameter 1/2 thick, bifilar wound with 9 strand hook up wire ( don't use mag or insulated copper) Supply = 3 volts, current draw = 10Ma. Output unloaded just under 80 volts. See photo's.

Hi crowclaw,
What does it do at 1.5 volts?
So we are working with all the same fruit so to speak, we try to stay with the single AA (or D) battery so the input is 1.2-1.6v.
So, please let us know what you get with one single, because it will be comparable.

I have some mosfets in my shoebox, but never tried them.
What is your reason?

Also, please wind a 10-30 turn secondary using mag wire around the toroid, then using both ends on the probes, have a look on the scope too. (and please show it too??)

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 04, 2010, 05:09:19 PM

@all

This has nothing to do with the joule thief, but its a must see , it will challenge your mind.

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=1285345463618889531&ei=umZCS-K-D4balQex0ODRDw&q=lloyd+pye&hl=en#

It is 2 hour but really worth it !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on January 04, 2010, 05:15:47 PM

@ Jeanna

At 1.5volts probably a lot less voltage as it stands... it was only a quick hook up for further trials depending on received interest. Mosfet devices have different operating characteristics as you are probably aware, as an example a BC547 small signal transistor gave an output of 100volts at 40Ma for 1.5volts input using this same toroid. Mosfet devices are ideal in power circuits due to their very low turn on resistance so less heat generation at higher currents. Perhaps another thread is required for ideas using alternative circuit ideas, devices and supplies??

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 04, 2010, 06:00:43 PM

Quote from: crowclaw on January 04, 2010, 05:15:47 PM

Perhaps another thread is required for ideas using alternative circuit ideas, devices and supplies??

Well, I do not think so unless the basic elements are changed.
The single battery is one and the center tapped primary (the bifilar ) winding is another.
Using pulses to create volts is an underlying element in a joule thief.
Experimenting with other types of transistors, adding, subtracting caps etc is all within the range of the joule thief topic. afai think anyway.
(I personally want to keep this as utterly simple as possible.)
At the moment it IS very simple.

Since we are not powering our houses and running motors, there is room for more.

Thanks for the contribution, and also,
thank you for the numbers you got with a single battery.

100v on the C-E junction is quite high.
I usually see about 10v.
So with 10 times the output at only 40m amps draw this is impressive.

I wonder how a secondary will do.
Did you ever make the secondary and look at it?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 04, 2010, 06:19:06 PM

@ crowclaw

Quote from: crowclaw on January 04, 2010, 03:34:58 PM
See photo's.

Nice pulses. I think they are more usable than the rather sloppy JT pulses. I can think of a lot of things you can do with that output. It looks like positive and negative currents are well balanced, so it should drive a voltage multiplier. I would suggest adding a pickup coil to see what voltage you can get. And also see if it will run on 1.5 volys.

I assume you just replaced the JT transistor with the fet, but a diagram would still be good.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 04, 2010, 06:34:47 PM

This is a circuit I posted on the New Jewel Thief "Resonate LCR Circuit" Much less energy draw.... thread started by sirmikey1. There is more information there about it.

This circuit uses only 0.1 mA to blink a neon or LEDs. A 1.5 volt "D" cell flashlight battery is rated at 12,000 mA-hr. Dividing 0.1 mA into 12,000 yields a run time of 12000/.1/24/365 = 13.7 years . Of course the battery will probably leak before that. If using LED also use a 1N4007 diode in series with the LED to prevent the LED from being damaged by the reverse voltage.

Three videos of this circuit on YouTube at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKEPhnCxsqw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xc_PGdwTTEc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpMmvY4JOpE

NOTE: It is not really a Joule thief, it is actually a relaxation oscillator.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 04, 2010, 06:42:04 PM

@xee

How long will it run on a potato ;D...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on January 04, 2010, 06:55:09 PM

Quote from: xee2 on January 04, 2010, 06:34:47 PM
This is a circuit I posted on the New Jewel Thief "Resonate LCR Circuit" Much less energy draw.... thread started by sirmikey1. There is more information there about it.

This circuit uses only 0.1 mA to blink a neon or LEDs. A 1.5 volt "D" cell flashlight battery is rated at 12,000 mA-hr. Dividing 0.1 mA into 12,000 yields a run time of 12000/.1/24/365 = 13.7 years . Of course the battery will probably leak before that. If using LED also use a 1N4007 diode in series with the LED to prevent the LED from being damaged by the reverse voltage.

Three videos of this circuit on YouTube at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKEPhnCxsqw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xc_PGdwTTEc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpMmvY4JOpE

NOTE: It is not really a Joule thief, it is actually a relaxation oscillator.

Great improvements, I look forward to seeing more. This circuit makes good use of a different approach to the basic circuit.

It's no surprise the draw is so low - unfortunately I haven't been able to find a 100pf cap, on top of this, the transistors i'm using aren't functioning the same as yours, but that's to be expected.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 04, 2010, 07:13:24 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on January 04, 2010, 02:16:21 PM
Silly Spaceman

:)

I just thought I would set the record straight.

You have made alot of really impressive stuff ............but that does not mean you have given us anything.

You forget that most of us do not have your experience or intuition about these things .........so yes you have to explain things as if you are talking to children

You seem to talk mostly in your own code.
You know exactly what you mean........ but most of the rest of us are lost ............ tic tic boom
I can only remember 1 schematic from you ........ I think it was for making a PWM from a 555

I would love to know more about how some of your circuits work........but I gave up asking about them long ago............because your answers are in code or sharthand .....they make no sense to me.

I do berlieve that everyone has potential for genius inside of them
I think you have found that potential. ........
Just because understnding and building these kinds of circuits comes easy and natural for you that does not mean that it is easy or natural for the rest of us.

You might think about not calling us silly humans any morec........ why not try normal humans :)

Don't get me wrong here.......I am not saying you are any smarter than anyone else here .......this is just your element more than it is ours .......please keep that in mind.

I am like you ........ I am a genius in some ways........but I am also very dumb in many ways . The dumb is what most people tend to see first.

You could be of great help to the people here ......but so far you have been very little help

To be if great help you WILL have to talk to us like we are dumb .......without treating us like we are dumb
I need all the help I can get .... I need the procress walked through step by step ........I need schematics

Once I can see it in my mind........then I got it ...... My mind is mostly visual.

````````````````````````````````````````````````

One of the ways I am a genius ........I am a peacemaker ........can you feel the peace?

gary

Nice reply Gary, you are a lot more diplomatic then I. I started to write a reply to that post earlier this morning but ended up closing my browser without posting it.
Don't sell yourself and others short in this thread. Many have come a very long way with each others help. Many here started out with little or no electronics knowledge and now have a very good grasp of the joule thief and it's potential. I don't post very often but I have followed this thread from the beginning.

It is easy to come on here and talk in tongues, gibberish and make people think that you know what your talking about. People who have little or no experience can be easily fooled into believing this type of person. The people who do have some electronics experience usually catch on pretty quickly. It is easy for anyone to tell if these people actually know what they are talking about.

First, ask a question. Even if the person doesn't know the answer they will tell you that they are not sure. If the person tells you it is above your head or you would not understand, it should raise a flag.

Second, ask for readings. Most people will give you the input and output readings. They may not be completely correct but you will get something from them. The person who ignores your request is usually hiding something.

Ask for a schematic. I realize that a lot of people here have a rough time drawing a schematic. Any kind of drawing is helpful. The type of drawing that Kooler just did a few posts ago is probably the easiest to understand for most. (thanx Kooler).

Also, most normal people would say something like, "I think I may have discovered something" when performing their tests. Other people claim great OU discoveries before even building the device.

I could go on all day with this but I think you get the point.

One last point. NOBODY here is stupid! Some people here have more experience then others, but they too had to start somewhere. It really really bothers me when someone calls someone else stupid. It is their own shortcomings that cause them to say things like this. Never be afraid to ask a question when you are not sure. Someone here is always willing to help you out any way they can.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 04, 2010, 08:07:46 PM

i do agree and i did not mean to offend anyone much less you gary! BTW EVERYONE IS GENIOUS ! EACH IN THERE OWN WAY .. im sorry that this is MY WAY! at least i shared at all..... many have not !

here is MY npn MAGIC MAKER ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NiTTZFnEX4

there you mesurements mr mags!

your schem you have 15 + pages full!

thank you!

w

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 04, 2010, 08:41:42 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 04, 2010, 06:42:04 PM
@xee

How long will it run on a potato ;D...

LOL HOTT! POTATO!

: )

w

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 04, 2010, 09:14:17 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 04, 2010, 08:07:46 PM
i do agree and i did not mean to offend anyone much less you gary! BTW EVERYONE IS GENIOUS ! EACH IN THERE OWN WAY .. im sorry that this is MY WAY! at least i shared at all..... many have not !

here is MY npn MAGIC MAKER ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NiTTZFnEX4

there you mesurements mr mags!

your schem you have 15 + pages full!

thank you!

w

Not sure why you are calling it a magic maker. Looks like a basic jt. Hard to tell for sure without a schematic or drawing. The measurements you are taking are what? What is the input power and output power? Voltages across different test points in the circuit don't really mean anything. Also, when you are taking voltage readings from what you say are rectified and unrectified, why are you not switching the meter between AC and DC. Doesn't rectified mean DC and unrectified mean AC?

Can you also post where the 15+ pages of your schematics are.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on January 04, 2010, 09:14:37 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 04, 2010, 08:07:46 PM
i do agree and i did not mean to offend anyone much less you gary! BTW EVERYONE IS GENIOUS ! EACH IN THERE OWN WAY .. im sorry that this is MY WAY! at least i shared at all..... many have not !

here is MY npn MAGIC MAKER ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NiTTZFnEX4

there you mesurements mr mags!

your schem you have 15 + pages full!

thank you!

w

IST

I was not offended .........but it did seem to me like it was time to say something.
The concept of " stupid " has seemed to be coming up more and more in your posts.
I stopped using the concept of stupid many years ago.

As I see it life is kind of like a jigsaw puzzle ....... no one has all the information or talent .....we each have a few pieces to offer.

I don't think it is possible to think of someone as stupid witout discounting all that they know that you do not know.
By calling someone stupid you are saying I know this and you don't so I am superior to you ........

To me calling someone here stupid is kind of like getting a new jigsaw puzzle opening it up and throwing out all the pieces that have red in them ........because red is an inferior color.

You never know when somone is going to find their genius
You never know who might make a comment that puts you on track for a new discovery

No one here deserves to be thrown away.

`````````````````````````````````````````````

Nice video........ I still do not understand what you use the diodes for ...... I have a board that I use that is kind of similar.......except no diodes.
I use it just to make it easier to make changes to a circuit.
yours looks much more profesional
Mine is just a piece of wood with some a heat sink attached to it.......and some screws for connection points
I use alligator clips for the connectrions.......it gets messy but it gets the job done .

I couldn't get a reading at the last part of the video........ you said that is why I call it the magic maker..........and the meter was flashing different numbers.

You said something of 15 pages of of measurements
Did I miss a link or something?

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 04, 2010, 09:37:42 PM

in all honesty ...

you all wonder why people be come annoyed .....

come on ... i said there 15 pages of schmetics! errrrrr....

+ golly

it is a darn transistor ... with 2 diodes .

im trying to teach the silly ones not stupid ones .!

i show ALL POTENCIAL POINTS I CAN DRAW POWER FROM ! AND IN ALL MANNERES OF DOING SO ...

ill sell ya 1 got 200 bucks? then you scope it mesure it put it IN A TROPHY CASE throw it out ... i dont care

if you can not understand what in the hell im showing you .... pick UP A NEW JOB!

ist!

sorry not to be rude but good grief! lol

i have a ground connection ... i have a pulse wire flyback with a fr306 diode on it i have another wire to the same tap point from the pulse wire colapse and it has no diode .. i also have a wire taped to the base flyback and i then have another fr 306 diode off the base and in my video i demo it ... in the STILLS IN THE VIDEO YOU SEE THE PLACEMENT OF THE METER LEADS AND THE VOLTAGE THAT CAN BE DRAWEN FROM EACH PLACEMENT!

thank you!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 04, 2010, 10:09:50 PM

Hey:

I am the poster boy for stupid when it comes to electronics. OK, maybe ignorant is the better word here. When I started this topic way back when, you will see that I was asking a question. I have since received many thousand replies to that question.

I can't thank the folks here enough for what I have learned since then. I now have folks on Youtube asking me electronics questions....imagine that. I know so much more than I did when I asked that first question about the JT circuit...but I am not done. Not by a long shot. As my Dad taught me, the more I learn, the more I realize that I do not know. Nothing could be more true than that here. You folks have taken the "simple" JT circuit well beyond anything I could have even dreamed about back then. And, we are not done.

I do post schematics but, as you have seen, they look more like they were drawn by a drunk 1st grader. Replication is the key here and I have done it, as have most of you.

Take the Jeanna Light for a great example. First, we have OUR Jeanna who has developed this circuit, with the help of others here, that caught the attention of Lidmotor. Lidmotor then added his own style to it and made the Jeanna Light. I then, was able to replicate this circuit ONLY because of the crude but detailed drawings supplied by Lidmotor. This circuit works. This is what we have had here and this is what we still need. Again, a great circuit is just that, but without replications....what is it?

I agree with Mr. Mag, Jeanna and also Gary. Look what has gotten us to this point. I see no reason to change that. Again, replications are the key. If someone wants folks to replicate their circuit, they NEED to supply ALL of the information needed to do so.

Anyway, that is all I have to say about that. (Forrest Gump)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 04, 2010, 10:15:15 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 04, 2010, 09:37:42 PM
in all honesty ...

you all wonder why people be come annoyed .....

come on ... i said there 15 pages of schmetics! errrrrr....

+ golly

it is a darn transistor ... with 2 diodes .

im trying to teach the silly ones not stupid ones .!

i show ALL POTENCIAL POINTS I CAN DRAW POWER FROM ! AND IN ALL MANNERES OF DOING SO ...

ill sell ya 1 got 200 bucks? then you scope it mesure it put it IN A TROPHY CASE throw it out ... i dont care

if you can not understand what in the hell im showing you .... pick UP A NEW JOB!

ist!

sorry not to be rude but good grief! lol

i have a ground connection ... i have a pulse wire flyback with a fr306 diode on it i have another wire to the same tap point from the pulse wire colapse and it has no diode .. i also have a wire taped to the base flyback and i then have another fr 306 diode off the base and in my video i demo it ... in the STILLS IN THE VIDEO YOU SEE THE PLACEMENT OF THE METER LEADS AND THE VOLTAGE THAT CAN BE DRAWEN FROM EACH PLACEMENT!

thank you!

At least you moved it up a notch. Now not everyone is stupid just some and the rest are silly.
You are the one that said you had 15 pages of schematics.I don't remember seeing any from you.
So it is just a jt with a couple of additional diodes.
Again, I think you are putting the cart before the horse. You are saying that you have all of these point in which you can draw power but you don't show it being done. I would think that as soon as I start extracting voltages from some of those points that the dynamics of the circuit would change and may possibly stop working. But then again, I've only been tinkering in electronics for around 35 years so I probably fall under the "stupid" category. :)

I see you also want us to buy one of your joule thiefs for $200.00. Sounds like a deal. Who's up for it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 04, 2010, 10:20:34 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 04, 2010, 10:09:50 PM
Hey:

I am the poster boy for stupid when it comes to electronics. OK, maybe ignorant is the better word here. When I started this topic way back when, you will see that I was asking a question. I have since received many thousand replies to that question.

I can't thank the folks here enough for what I have learned since then. I now have folks on Youtube asking me electronics questions....imagine that. I know so much more than I did when I asked that first question about the JT circuit...but I am not done. Not by a long shot. As my Dad taught me, the more I learn, the more I realize that I do not know. Nothing could be more true than that here. You folks have taken the "simple" JT circuit well beyond anything I could have even dreamed about back then. And, we are not done.

I do post schematics but, as you have seen, they look more like they were drawn by a drunk 1st grader. Replication is the key here and I have done it, as have most of you.

Take the Jeanna Light for a great example. First, we have OUR Jeanna who has developed this circuit, with the help of others here, that caught the attention of Lidmotor. Lidmotor then added his own style to it and made the Jeanna Light. I then, was able to replicate this circuit ONLY because of the crude but detailed drawings supplied by Lidmotor. This circuit works. This is what we have had here and this is what we still need. Again, a great circuit is just that, but without replications....what is it?

I agree with Mr. Mag, Jeanna and also Gary. Look what has gotten us to this point. I see no reason to change that. Again, replications are the key. If someone wants folks to replicate their circuit, they NEED to supply ALL of the information needed to do so.

Anyway, that is all I have to say about that. (Forrest Gump)

Bill

Well said. Chicken scratch on a piece of paper is better than nothing at all. And YES, replications are the way. A lot of people do not have the exact same components and sometimes this is an advantage.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on January 04, 2010, 10:21:03 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 04, 2010, 09:37:42 PM
in all honesty ...

you all wonder why people be come annoyed .....

come on ... i said there 15 pages of schmetics! errrrrr....

+ golly

it is a darn transistor ... with 2 diodes .

im trying to teach the silly ones not stupid ones .!

i show ALL POTENCIAL POINTS I CAN DRAW POWER FROM ! AND IN ALL MANNERES OF DOING SO ...

ill sell ya 1 got 200 bucks? then you scope it mesure it put it IN A TROPHY CASE throw it out ... i dont care

if you can not understand what in the hell im showing you .... pick UP A NEW JOB!

ist!

sorry not to be rude but good grief! lol

i have a ground connection ... i have a pulse wire flyback with a fr306 diode on it i have another wire to the same tap point from the pulse wire colapse and it has no diode .. i also have a wire taped to the base flyback and i then have another fr 306 diode off the base and in my video i demo it ... in the STILLS IN THE VIDEO YOU SEE THE PLACEMENT OF THE METER LEADS AND THE VOLTAGE THAT CAN BE DRAWEN FROM EACH PLACEMENT!

thank you!

IST

Sorry I annoyed you.

It will not happen again.

Consider me thrown away

I am clearly to stupid for you to deal with

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 04, 2010, 10:25:41 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on January 04, 2010, 06:55:09 PM

unfortunately I haven't been able to find a 100pf cap,.....

Jadaro
My radio shack sells a pair of them for a buck fifty.
It is called a 101
I hope you can find it.

jeanna
here is the part number...
100pF 50V 10% Hi-Q Ceramic Disc Capacitor
Model: 272-123 | Catalog #: 272-123

$1.49

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 04, 2010, 10:47:45 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on January 04, 2010, 10:21:03 PM
IST

Sorry I annoyed you.

It will not happen again.

Consider me thrown away

I am clearly to stupid for you to deal with

gary

GARY ... unless your the only one that posted such stupid things to my youtube ... then i probally aint calling you stupid sir my my my

far from it!

anyhow it is the clowns that LOST THERE BALLONS ! I CALL STUPID! and the silly ones are the ones that do verry little like a few i could mention ... lol

anyhow here is a clear picture as if my videos are not enough.... i will MAKE another video traceing and explaining every single wire and its porpus and its connections ... just so it can be duplicated..

and further more the diodes dont make that much diff..... lol

so all that is required to duplicate this unit is 2 diodes ... 1 2n3055 can transistor 1 1" goldmine toroide 2 6" peices of cat 5 twisted wire and wound on the toroide core ...

REAL HARD TO DO EH !

EVEN HARDER TO DO AND UNDER STAND HOW AND WHAT IT IS ! EH!

JUST BUILD IT ! YAWN!!!

W

IT IS QUITE CLEAR IF YOU FAIL TO UNDERSTAND MY WORK ... I M JUST GUESING HERE IT AINT YOURS ... EH? ...

LMFAO RIGHT CUZ ITS MINE ....

thank you!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 04, 2010, 10:57:08 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 04, 2010, 10:47:45 PM
GARY ... unless your the only one that posted such stupid things to my youtube ... then i probally aint calling you stupid sir my my my

far from it!

anyhow it is the clowns that LOST THERE BALLONS ! I CALL STUPID! and the silly ones are the ones that do verry little like a few i could mention ... lol

anyhow here is a clear picture as if my videos are not enough.... i will MAKE another video traceing and explaining every single wire and its porpus and its connections ... just so it can be duplicated..

and further more the diodes dont make that much diff..... lol

so all that is required to duplicate this unit is 2 diodes ... 1 2n3055 can transistor 1 1" goldmine toroide 2 6" peices of cat 5 twisted wire and wound on the toroide core ...

REAL HARD TO DO EH !

EVEN HARDER TO DO AND UNDER STAND HOW AND WHAT IT IS ! EH!

JUST BUILD IT ! YAWN!!!

W

I think before anyone duplicates it you should maybe utilize those point to do something. As one of the famous posters here would say, prove me wrong.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 04, 2010, 11:01:53 PM

here is mr patato head ... and he apears to be the first to wine and complain yet post SUCH PATATO PICS LICHTING FILIMENT BULBS ...

right mr patato .... lol

I FAIL SO SEE YOUR WORKS MR MAG!

where might you hide it .... ? ? ? ? ? ?

your patato pics lmfao.....

do something ... or get lost!

ist!

ill play the will card mr mag!

did you EVER ANSWER HIS QUESTION ? HOW MANY APMS CAN YOU PULL FROM 1 SINGLE PATATO ?

LMFAO!!!! WATCH IT OR ILL THROW AN ONION! LOL OR DOES MR MAGS NEED GARLIC?

ist mudders under his breth .... TROLL!

im just haveing fun .... : ) ra ra ra re re re goo goo ga ga lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 04, 2010, 11:14:06 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 04, 2010, 11:01:53 PM
here is mr patato head ... and he apears to be the first to wine and complain yet post SUCH PATATO PICS LICHTING FILIMENT BULBS ...

right mr patato .... lol

I FAIL SO SEE YOUR WORKS MR MAG!

where might you hide it .... ? ? ? ? ? ?

your patato pics lmfao.....

do something ... or get lost!

ist!

You don't have to get defensive. I'm just asking you to do some tests on your claims. You haven't seen my works because there was nothing special to show. All worked as normal. Nothing different then anyone else.

You know, your sort of proving my point about the false OU Prophets. I've asked you questions and you are ignoring them and now your calling me stupid.

Do something or get lost. You don't like being questioned, do you :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 04, 2010, 11:17:13 PM

i am sorry mr m

what more can i possibly do or explain to you ...

ist

my question is rather why cant you come to your own conclusions and share them ? then you can...... TROLL YOUR WORK! not mine !

thank you

the goo goo dolls ! AND ARVIL LIVE!

I R IS!$ LOL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2bk8zhquOM&feature=related
ISIS + RA = HORUS

HEY HOW YA DOIN ?

I GUESS NOW YA KNOW ..... ; )

SK8ERBOY ... ARVIL : )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcJ35czZekQ

SEE ME JUMP IN ? ... lol

Q

SHE TURNS ON TV .... GUESS WHO SHE SEE'S BUT SK8ER BOY ROCKING UP MY TV! ....LOL
she calls up her friends they ALREADY KNOW ! AND they all got tickets to SEE HIS SHOW !

SHE taggs along and stands in the crowd.... looking up at the MAN THAT SHE TURNED DOWNNNNNNNNN

NOW !M A SUPER STAR SLAMMING ON MY GUITAR!

$$$

she says she will be back stage after the show ... singing the song we wrote about the CHILDREN I USED TO KNOW! ....

: )

Title: Re: Jule Thief pancake hold the syrup
Post by: jeanna on January 04, 2010, 11:26:56 PM

I don't have any pix of lights to lighten this up, but I have 3 scope shots of the same wave getting farther and farther away.
This is such an interesting thing I need to bring this out again.
I am using an odd 2 toroid jt which I made in an attempt to get a kind of mag amp going.
I do not think that worked, however, It is made on a toroid with a larger diameter but with a sprightly gait... the tor-61

It has very few turns around the toroid or pair of toroids
It is the secondary which is novel.
I wrapped the secondary 5 times around the toroid and then connected it to the conical wires.
In fact this is merely a pancake coil in 3-D. I have connected the 2 wires together that way (end of one to beginning of the other) and I am reading 85volts off the series ends of the pancake-conical secondary.
So, you can see the jt with conical secondary to the right and the scope shots are from 5uS to 20uS to 50uS per div.
They go both ways and cycle so fast the movie cannot pick it up so a still is as good.
here they are... same wave, but from very close up to farther and farther away.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 04, 2010, 11:27:44 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 04, 2010, 11:17:13 PM
i am sorry mr m

what more can i possibly do or explain to you ...

ist

my question is rather why cant you come to your own conclusions and share them ? then you can...... TROLL YOUR WORK! not mine !

thank you

Well, to be honest, you can explain to me what makes your latest discovery magic. How much power have you taken from these test points? You could also supply a simple schematic or drawing so that others can replicate.

My own conclusions are this. You may try to take power off of these points and find out that it may not work. I think you will overload the circuit. The only other thing I see happening is that you will drop it completely and discover another OU device in the next couple of days.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 04, 2010, 11:48:08 PM

Quote from: MrMag on January 04, 2010, 11:27:44 PM
Well, to be honest, you can explain to me what makes your latest discovery magic. How much power have you taken from these test points? You could also supply a simple schematic or drawing so that others can replicate.

My own conclusions are this. You may try to take power off of these points and find out that it may not work. I think you will overload the circuit. The only other thing I see happening is that you will drop it completely and discover another OU device in the next couple of days.

this is quite possible mr mags ...

i have drawen power from it yes ... no it will not effect the device ... it will if you pull from THE WRONG PLACES in THE WRONG mannor ...

but if done correctly no ... INFACT IT WILL INCREASE OUTPUT ....

i will not just serve you each and every answer SIR ... ...

w

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 05, 2010, 12:02:24 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 04, 2010, 11:48:08 PM
this is quite possible mr mags ...

i have drawen power from it yes ... no it will not effect the device ... it will if you pull from THE WRONG PLACES in THE WRONG mannor ...

but if done correctly no ... INFACT IT WILL INCREASE OUTPUT ....

i will not just serve you each and every answer SIR ... ...

w

But just a second. Your the one that make claims of this device. I'm asking you what you are getting from these test points. If you want people to replicate, you need to give some idea of what it can do. You can't just make claims without backing up your statements. I'm not asking you to serve up anything but some solid facts.

You said you have drawn power from this. Can you tell us how much power compared to input. Voltage alone is not a good indication without a load. Also, if you want people to replicate you need to tell us which way is right and which way is wrong. Any drawings yet?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 05, 2010, 12:11:34 AM

Quote from: MrMag on January 05, 2010, 12:02:24 AM
But just a second. Your the one that make claims of this device. I'm asking you what you are getting from these test points. If you want people to replicate, you need to give some idea of what it can do. You can't just make claims without backing up your statements. I'm not asking you to serve up anything but some solid facts.

You said you have drawn power from this. Can you tell us how much power compared to input. Voltage alone is not a good indication without a load. Also, if you want people to replicate you need to tell us which way is right and which way is wrong. Any drawings yet?

sir with all do RESPECT SIR ... this is your COMPLEX NOT MINE!! LOL

it is your faulty math that WILL NEVER SOLVE IT ... NOT MINE ...

ill leave it there you want to test it .. buy 1 200 bucks or go build it ... simple as that ...

I DONT SEEM TO CARE IN THE LEAST INPUT TO OUT PUT ... YOU DO SO THERE FOR THIS IS YOUR OWN COMPLEX WITH IN YOUR OWN MIND ...

i in all honesty can help with many things ... but some of your own problems you must work out on your own ...

thank you ..

your are always the one wineing bout mesurements bla bla bla ...

go do your own work ...

AND TO BE COMPLEATLY HONEST I COULD CARE LESS IF IT GETS DUPLICATED OR NOT ... THE SATISFIED CUSTOMERS WILL TELL THE TRUTH! : )

THEASE UNITS ARE BEING SOLD! GONE TO MARKET! THANK YOU! IT IS AN EXPERMANTAL COIL TUNEING DEVICE ... TITLED ~~~~THE !ST MAG!C MAKER!~~~~ NPN AND PNP : )

I CAN TUNE ANY COIL I LIKE WITH THIS ... I HAVE OTHER DESIGNS TOO ... with a smorg of pots ... lol and EVERY TRANSISTOR VARIENT I CHOOSE PLUS SECONDARY TUNERS AND TESTERS ...

bla bla bla

im sick of spoon feeding you ...

agin where is your work .... ?

you see mine ...

H

I NOW FEEL .... IF YOU DO NOT DONATE TO THE COMMON GOAL .... YOUR NOT GOING TO BE ALLOWED TO ASK ANY QUESTIONS ... PEROID! ... YOU SEE TIM IF YOU DID ANY OF YOUR OWN WORK YOU WOULD NOT ASK THE THINGS YOU DO ....

BECAUSE YOU WOULD HAVE YOUR OWN ANSWERS... you would not need to show your true colours as much .... sir lmfao you colours
SHOW YOUR OWN LAZZYNESS!

THANK YOU

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 05, 2010, 12:26:26 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 05, 2010, 12:11:34 AM
sir with all do RESPECT SIR ... this is your COMPLEX NOT MINE!! LOL

it is your faulty math that WILL NEVER SOLVE IT ... NOT MINE ...

ill leave it there you want to test it .. buy 1 200 bucks or go build it ... simple as that ...

I DONT SEEM TO CARE IN THE LEAST INPUT TO OUT PUT ... YOU DO SO THERE FOR THIS IS YOUR OWN COMPLEX WITH IN YOUR OWN MIND ...

i in all honesty can help with many things ... but some of your own problems you must work out on your own ...

thank you ..

your are always the one wineing bout mesurements bla bla bla ...

go do your own work ...

AND TO BE COMPLEATLY HONEST I COULD CARE LESS IF IT GETS DUPLICATED OR NOT ... THE SATISFIED CUSTOMERS WILL TELL THE TRUTH! : )

THEASE UNITS ARE BEING SOLD! GONE TO MARKET! THANK YOU! IT IS AN EXPERMANTAL COIL TUNEING DEVICE ... TITLED ~~~~THE !ST MAG!C MAKER!~~~~ NPN AND PNP : )

I CAN TUNE ANY COIL I LIKE WITH THIS ... I HAVE OTHER DESIGNS TOO ... with a smorg of pots ... lol and EVERY TRANSISTOR VARIENT I CHOOSE PLUS SECONDARY TUNERS AND TESTERS ...

bla bla bla

im sick of spoon feeding you ...

agin where is your work .... ?

you see mine ...

H

nuff said. You proved my point in the early posts regarding fakes. No one is allowed to question your work. No problem. Hope you get rich selling those $200.00 joule thiefs.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 05, 2010, 12:34:49 AM

THIS IS THE LAST TIME IM RESPONDING TO YOU TIM!

IT IS MY COIL TUNER .... NPN AND PNP AND I TITLED IT THE IST MAGIC MAKER!

THANK YOU !

IT WILL WORK ON ALL TRANSFORMERS ALL TOROIDES AND EVERY MULTI COIL COMBO YOUR SMALL BRAIN CAN THINK UP ...

TY ~ulm~ lol just incase you dont know what this is .... ~ulm~ lol thats the BIRD ... : )

hehehehe

ist!

this fat piggy is going to market ...

THAT fat PIGGY sat at home did nothing... got no rost beef.... and WINES ALONE!

W

agin mr mags HOW MANY PATATOS TO AN AMP? ps i dont care the volts .... lol : ) )

cheeze wit da wine ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 05, 2010, 12:54:57 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 05, 2010, 12:34:49 AM
THIS IS THE LAST TIME IM RESPONDING TO YOU TIM!

IT IS MY COIL TUNER .... NPN AND PNP AND I TITLED IT THE IST MAGIC MAKER!

THANK YOU !

IT WILL WORK ON ALL TRANSFORMERS ALL TOROIDES AND EVERY MULTI COIL COMBO YOUR SMALL BRAIN CAN THINK UP ...

TY ~ulm~ lol just incase you dont know what this is .... ~ulm~ lol thats the BIRD ... : )

hehehehe

ist!

this fat piggy is going to market ...

THAT fat PIGGY sat at home did nothing... got no rost beef.... and WINES ALONE!

W

I figured you would stop. In all the post replies you have done nothing to answer any of my questions. All you have done is try to put me down. Call me stupid, small brain, and a fat pig.

Your one classy guy

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 05, 2010, 01:03:21 AM

its all in fun ... i make an example of you ...

as i do remember your class all to well .... so your not one to speak of class sir!

you never told me i need a 50 lb bag of patatos for 1 amp yet sir then i need to cut them in quarters ontop it ... lol

come on ....

i also remember you TELLING ME HOW MY DEVICES DO NOT TRANSMITT IN ORDOR TO RECIEVE ... LOL

I PUSHED THAT BACK AT YA CUZ YOU PROVED WHAT YOU KNOW RIGHT THEN AND THERE ...

LOL

guess what i never changed my words... still say the SAME THING!

la de da RA RA RA !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 05, 2010, 01:37:25 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 05, 2010, 01:03:21 AM
its all in fun ... i make an example of you ...

as i do remember your class all to well .... so your not one to speak of class sir!

you never told me i need a 50 lb bag of patatos for 1 amp yet sir then i need to cut them in quarters ontop it ... lol

come on ....

i also remember you TELLING ME HOW MY DEVICES DO NOT TRANSMITT IN ORDOR TO RECIEVE ... LOL

I PUSHED THAT BACK AT YA CUZ YOU PROVED WHAT YOU KNOW RIGHT THEN AND THERE ...

LOL

guess what i never changed my words... still say the SAME THING!

la de da RA RA RA !

Calling people stupid, small brained and fat pig is not in good fun. I guess you think that makes you smarter, it doesn't. Here you are crying and whinning that you give give give and nobody gives you nothing. You have no money blah, blah, blah. Welcome to the real world. You are not the only one in that situation. Hell, you have the advantage. With all of your devices I'm sure your already heating and lighting your house for free. Your car probably runs on water. You have it made. And the crying about not getting anything from anyone. Didn't I give you a signal generator for free. didn't I tell you I was cleaning out my shop and offered to you a bunch of electronics for free that I was going to dispose of. I'm sure others here have also helped you out. And the thanks we get are the preschool name calling.

Oh yeah, the potato thing. I really got to research that. Like I said, I'm sure I remember seeing that in high school science class. That was the seventies though and I was doing a lot of experimentation, if you know what I mean. But I'll try to search it up anyways.

Don't remember the transmit/receive thing. I could of been wrong. I'm not like you, I do make mistakes from time to time. Most of my experience, not all, was in electronic repair. Only a small portion of that was in design.

I know your grade school diploma and 2 years experience trump my college education with 35 years experience. What can I say.

I think it's time to stop (for now) and hand this thread back to the jt group before we get attacked by pirates. Sorry everyone, just thought you should really know what kind of person IST is.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 05, 2010, 01:47:14 AM

mr mag you gave me the sig gen wich i have offered to ship back to you ... as i dont use it..

i remember the harrassing calls at CHRIST MAS ... WINEING TO BE PAID ... then you just gave it to me ... ok i used it for a bit ... thank you for that ! i also said you would recieve your FREE ENGERY DEVICE FOR FREE .... wich you have as has the REST OF THE WORLD .... : )

and the garage full of electronic vcrs and such was a nice kind jesture but if you can not afford to travel 6 hours to your location ... i guess i missed out ... besides... you never even offered gas money ... yep ... THEY CHARGE MONEY TO TAKE YOUR JUNK AWAY WHERE I COME FROM ANYHOW ...

at 35 bucks a tv it adds up fast! ...

perhaps YOU YOURSELF SHOULD TAKE THEM APART PLAY WITH A FEW PARTS ... AND DISCOVER YOUR OWN DISCOVERIES ...

or PAY THE PRICE TO DISPOSE OF YOUR OLD JUNK .... ...

i have a friend that owns the goods collection for 3rd world countries ... they offered all the ELECTRICONICS I WANT FOR FREE ... AND THEY WILL DELIVER THEM BY THE 8 X 10 CLOSED IN TRAILER LOAD ....

they are the ones with drop off boxes threw out south western ontario ... i think they have over 1000 drop boxes .... you can not imagine the junk people love to DUMP OFF TO SAVE A FEW BUCKS ...... or maybe you can .......

w

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 05, 2010, 01:52:43 AM

@ist mrmag

You both look foolish , you both should stop posting , if you have issues with each other then do it in private.

You both have good points , but most people around here don't care either way...

Ist , you can't act like a 12 years old ,stop the name calling it really doesn't help any cause.

Right or not there is no excuse for this behavior. Spend 5 minutes more to make sure you give clear instruction otherwise your post are useless.

MrMag , we know what you think and respect it , now let it go ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 05, 2010, 01:53:20 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 05, 2010, 01:47:14 AM
mr mag you gave me the sig gen wich i have offered to ship back to you ... as i dont use it..

i remember the harrassing calls at CHRIST MAS ... WINEING TO BE PAID ... then you just gave it to me ... ok i used it for a bit ... thank you for that ! i also said you would recieve your FREE ENGERY DEVICE FOR FREE .... wich you have as has the REST OF THE WORLD .... : )

and the garage full of electronic vcrs and such was a nice kind jesture but if you can not affort to travel 6 hours to your location ... i guess i missed out ... besides... you never even offered gas money ... yep ... THEY CHARGE MONEY TO TAK YOUR JUNK AWAY WHERE I COME FROM ANYHOW ...

at 35 bucks a tv it adds up fast! ...

perhaps YOU YOURSELF SHOULD TAKE THEM APART PLAY WITH A FEW PARTS ... AND DISCOVER YOUR OWN DISCOVERIES ...

or PAY THE PRICE TO DISPOSE OF YOUR OLD JUNK .... ...

i have a friend that owns the goods collection for 3rd world countries ... they offered all the ELECTRICONICS I WANT FOR FREE ... AND THEY WILL DELIVER THEM BU THE 8X 10 TRAILER LOAD ....

they are the ones with drop off boxes threw out south western ontario ... i think they have ovet 1000 drop boxes .... you can not imagine the junk people love to DUMP OFF TO SAVE A FEW BUCKS ......

w

Maybe I had the right to whine. Aren't you the one who said you would pay for it. I finally gave up. But, if you don't use it then yes, SEND IT BACK.

And I also haven't received my free energy device from you yet. Which one are you talking about? You might as well send it along with the generator.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 05, 2010, 02:00:37 AM

mk1 i agree ..... WHERE DID YOU LEARN ?

TY

mr magg i have EVERY NASTY PM YOU EVER SENT ME !

WE WILL LEAVE IT ALONE !

i will not take your old garbage to the curb for you ... WHY SHOULD I ? AND PAY FOR IT ON TOP OF IT ... ... your thinking dont jive in my world! pay me i will take it away ... but you really should take it apart and build your own ... TIM . INSTED OF THROWING OUT YOUR SUPPLY OF REQUIRED PARTS TO BUILD A FREE WORKING FREE ENGERY DEVICE!

but i guess you gotts lots o money to waste on buying the parts your paying to get rid of .... you see this IS EXACTALLY WHAT IS WRONG IN THE HUMAN WORLD ...

they could RECYCLE BUT INSTED THEY THROW AWAY.... AND RE BUY THAT, THAT THEY THREW OUT ....

now yes THAT IS A SILLY HUMAN!

w

william filsinger ... ~~~MASTER INVENTOR!~~~

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on January 05, 2010, 02:14:15 AM

Quote from: jeanna on January 04, 2010, 06:00:43 PM
Well, I do not think so unless the basic elements are changed.
The single battery is one and the center tapped primary (the bifilar ) winding is another.
Using pulses to create volts is an underlying element in a joule thief.
Experimenting with other types of transistors, adding, subtracting caps etc is all within the range of the joule thief topic. afai think anyway.
(I personally want to keep this as utterly simple as possible.)
At the moment it IS very simple.

Since we are not powering our houses and running motors, there is room for more.

Thanks for the contribution, and also,
thank you for the numbers you got with a single battery.

100v on the C-E junction is quite high.
I usually see about 10v.
So with 10 times the output at only 40m amps draw this is impressive.

I wonder how a secondary will do.
Did you ever make the secondary and look at it?

thank you,

jeanna

Hi jeanna,

many thanks for your comments, I have not tried a secondary yet but will have a look at it soon. I agree keeping things simple is a must for a number of reasons, although in electronics ideas may have to change to progress. This is one area I work in and what circuit design is all about. You start off simple and as new ideas come along and prove better then they have to be adopted to move forward. Kind regards M

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 05, 2010, 02:16:45 AM

Quote from: MrMag on January 05, 2010, 01:53:20 AM
Maybe I had the right to whine. Aren't you the one who said you would pay for it. I finally gave up. But, if you don't use it then yes, SEND IT BACK.

And I also haven't received my free energy device from you yet. Which one are you talking about? You might as well send it along with the generator.

Just send it back.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 05, 2010, 02:29:44 AM

Quote from: MrMag on January 05, 2010, 02:16:45 AM
Just send it back.

you realize how much time and space was wasted on this silly conversation ... do you not ... ?

but i proved many points ... in the process so it was not a total loss ...

i have MADE 1000'S OF MISTAKES .... AND PROUD OF IT ! because each one i make is to move me along to the light dirrection !

i would NOT KNOW WHAT I DO TODAY WITH OUT each and everyone of my mistakes .. wich were not mistakes but chances to gain undrestanding in the truth! it is a mistake on 1 side of view and opertunity on the other ....

any how ... you come up here MEET ME IN PERSON SHAKE MY HAND PICK UP YOUR SIGNAL GENERATOR AND YOUR HAND CRAFTED FREE WORKING IST MAGIC MAKER AT NO COST ....

AND IF YOU FEEL THE URGE TO THROW IN YOUR OLD JUNK I WONT SAY NO ...

but you most certianlly can not expect me to drive 6 hours for free for old junk ... im truly sorry if i had nothing to do and money to burn ... sure i would love to spinn your mind ...

but im not in a spot that allowes me to travel ...

nickles and dimes dont get you too far ....

so i have lived it!

w

IM SURE YOU CAN NOT BLAME AN INVENTOR FOR WANTING TO TAKE HIS HARD WORK TO MARKET .... CAN YOU ? LOL

SOME ONE INVENTED THE VERRY COMPUTER YOU TYPE ON RIGHT NOW ... DO YOU BLAME HIM FOR YOUR CONVENICENCE ? NAW I DID NT THINK SO...

btw mk1 MY RA COIL..... lol right ..... and you found it already wound on a toroide ... correct ...

well i did in a 35 year old microwave .... thank you verry much....

btw i have SHOWEN PICTURES OF JT'S FAR IN ADVANCE OF PUBLIC UNITS .. COMERICALLY USED THAT ARE 30 YEARS OLD ... AND BEEN ALREADY UPGRADED AND DISCARDED AS OLD JUNK!

AGIN ... HAVE I SEEN A SINGLE SOUL COME EVEN WITN IN MILES ... NO I HAVE NOT ....

I DO NOT FEEL OUT OF LINE LAYING RECLAIM TO MY WORK OF THE PAST!

IS T

LET ME RE SPELL THAT 4 U

T IS W815= H
+IS+RA = H ADD IT UP .... waite a min you cant add it up your math dont fit .... a circle cant fit where a square should be .....

369 #^( 3=4 3 PHASE QUADITURE ...

now where did i learn all i have .... ? thats right at my bench putting my fingers mind body and soul to constructive work that and the 1000 things i have built ... lol ALL HAVE TOUGHT ME QUITE WELL ...

; )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 05, 2010, 03:58:33 AM

I REMEMBER TESLA SAYING i can have many diffrent sources about 1 single wire .... and ALL IDEPENDENT OF 1 ANOTHER ......

hummmmmmm

kinda like your cable tv ... or your telephone system.... kinda ... lmfao

WHATEVER ...

this is getting boring ...

sun #5 ....

4
3
2
1
fun... i guess it is pnp tommorow ... why is sun # 5 doing it ... i know ... i know pick me ... lol

CUZ THE REST FAILED ... JUST BECAUSE THEY FAILED ... DOES NOT MEAN THERE WORK DOES NOT WORK ... IT MEANS THEY HAVE A LOVE FOR MONEY MORE SO THAN THERE FAMILY.... LOL

MONEY WILL NOT BUY NOR RESERVE YOU A SEAT ON THE STAR SHIP .... ..

KARMA BASED ! YEP ..

BTW @ GADGET ... I HAVE DECIDED ONLY TO PURCHISE 3 OF THE 6 UBC CAPS I HAVE PAYED YOU FOR ... CAN YOU KINDLY SHIP MY 1000 DOLLARS CDN WORTH OF MATERIALS ... - THE SUM OF 3 UBC'S YOU CAN USE THAT TO COVER THE SHIPPING COSTS ... AND YOUR STILL UP !

AND AGIN THANKS FOR YOUR EFFORT ... And keep the 50 cores i gave you FREE OF CHARGE ... !

I WILL USE THE OTHER 450 CORES FOR PRODUCTION MAGIC MAKERS! THE 200 NPN 22222A CANS THE 500 DB107'S

THEN STEPHAN WILL HAVE 50 DIFFRENT DEVICES ... AND I WILL CLAIM MY PRIZE ALONE THANK YOU ...

AS I HAVE THE CORRECT ANSWERS!

doubt it ?

kindly ship my things this lame game has gone on far tooo long... !

i will be yanking pattends soon ! ;) try me !

i have 1800 to choose from hummmm where do i start ... HOW ABOUT G SEAMS LIKE THE BEST PLACE TO START ... PERHAPS I OBSELITTE EVERYONES WORK WORLD WIDE IN 15 WORDS!

HUMMMMMMMM

BACK I A LITTLE AIL IN IN A CONNER WATCH HOW I RINGGGGGGG YOUR WORLD!

WHAT HAPPINS WHEN PLANET EARTH HITS NATURAL RESONANCE .... OOOO ITS A COMEING ... AND YOU NOR ANYONE CAN STOP IT .... NATURE BY DESIGN!

LOL

OOOOOO I FEEL THE EARTH MOVE UNDER MY FEET ..... THE WALLS ARE A CRUMBLING TUMBLING DOWN!

LOVE CAN AND WILL MOVE MOUNTIANS!

SO WHAT HAPPINS AFTER THE SHIFT .... RIGHT BACK TO THE OLD SYSTEM AND THERE DOCTORED SCLAR TRANSMITTERS PLACED ON THE OLD EARTH GRID ARE DE ACTIVATED ...

THANK YOU ... AND THE OLD SYSTEM IS BACK ONLINE .... IMAGINE ... NATURE BY DESIGN ....

SILLY HUMANS!

but your right mr m .. your 35 years of electronices super seedes my intuition ... lol ya right ... in your reality ... lol not in my galixicy! to wich you are already lost and i have hardly begun!!

; )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Tink on January 05, 2010, 07:57:56 AM

*SIGH*

It's an art to say a lot with little words.
It's also an art to say nothing with loads of words, IST is mastering the last art very well.

IST, be more honest and modest and give us a schematic from time to time to enable us to understand you better.
Hot air and gobbledygook isn't productive but just a waste of our time.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on January 05, 2010, 08:30:42 AM

:) @ ALL Could someone help me here please...

I am in the process of making my own rechargeable LED Joule thiefs, and I have some data that I
have put together from my experiments, please look carefully... and I'll ask my question at the
bottom of this data below...

JOULE-THIEF with AA battery powering a SUPER BRIGHT LED rated at - 265,000 mcd

CURRENT DRAW (mA) Voltage output (DC)
TOROID - Biffilar wound 14,14 turn 54.6 39.6
15,15 52.6 40.4
16,16 48.8 41.3
17,17 47.0 42.2
18,18 40.6 42.8

These figures are for my Super Bright LED, I used a 1k variable resistor for tuning to the point where
my Super Bright LED just turned very bright, but not quite at the maximum brightest.
My question is this... My Super Bright LED is rated at 100mA draw current, and I want to try and light
it at the brightest I can get it and at the same time drawing the least current from my AA-battery.

As you can see from the data up top, a 14,14 Bif wound toroid was drawing 54.6 mA from my battery,
but at 18,18 Bif wound toroid it was drawing 40.6 mA from my battery, and the LED seemed just as
bright with either wound toroid.

Is it possible to light an LED very brightly while drawing lesser current than what its rated at ?????
would you need higher voltage so you can lessen the current it draws ????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 05, 2010, 10:47:48 AM

Quote from: Tink on January 05, 2010, 07:57:56 AM
*SIGH*

It's an art to say a lot with little words.
It's also an art to say nothing with loads of words, IST is mastering the last art very well.

IST, be more honest and modest and give us a schematic from time to time to enable us to understand you better.
Hot air and gobbledygook isn't productive but just a waste of our time.

sounds like mr mag backs out ... time to drop in the TINK!

please and im not starting anything here ... have you built a PULSE MOTOR ? it is a mechanical jt lol ...

bedini ... same thing ... cam flash unit same thing AUDIO AMP ... SAME THING... MKC COIL SAME THING IST TPU 6 COIL SAME THING ... I HAVE POSTED THIS UNIT MANY WAYS in many shapes and looks ...

my tpus EACTALY THE SAME THING ... MY PULSE MOTORS ..SAME THING

your tv same thing ignition coil same thing ....

SHALL I GO ON?

w

my hemf transformer same thing my my fet units same thing ... my AUDIO CONTROLLER 3 FREQ HETERODYNE SAME THING ... my tpu audio hendge same thing ... my led flash lights and suncircle grow discs same thing ... my microwave magnet manipulation device ... same thing ... my neo zap same thing ... my mot same thing ... my cappac charger board same thing my cap motor same thing ....

let me ask you do i need a schem ? answer no i do not ...

you got a 3055 and 2 1n4001 diodes ... then you have my unit .... put it togather .. and there ya go ...

orbit ... ?

hahaha ... how DO I SET A CAP INTO SELF OSCOLATION ... THERE IS A POTENCIAL DIFFRENCE ... MY MAGIC MAKET CAN TRIGGER CAPS TO SELF OSCOLATION ... HUMMMMMMMM

LIKE I SAID 2 HUNDRED BUCKS OWN IT ! OR SPEND YEARS DOING AS I HAVE DONE TO ARRIVE AT MY ANSWERS ... or sit in the crowd and watch my show!

k

thank you

william

i owe you nothing ...

come on now i have hundreds more things ...

ooooo yes and MY DOOR BELL ... RINGG MY BELL TO ENTER! RED PILL OR BLUE ONE ... ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LT3w6-cCn10

YOU DONT SEAM TO COME AROUND .... WHAT YA TINK .. I CANT MAKE A SOUND ...

AGIN SEE YOUR FACE IN MY SHOW?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Tink on January 05, 2010, 11:30:52 AM

My fault, I forgot I shouldn't feed the Troll.
I wish there was an ignore button for posters.
I will shut up now.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 05, 2010, 12:34:44 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 05, 2010, 10:47:48 AM
sounds like mr mag backs out ... time to drop in the TINK!

No, I just know when to sit back, shut up and listen. You're doing a great job of finishing things up.

P.S. I shipped that Generator to you. You can ship it back. I'm not wasting my time to go to you. Do you really think I want to shake your hand after calling me those names. You are mistaken.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on January 05, 2010, 01:23:31 PM

Quote from: jeanna on January 04, 2010, 10:25:41 PM
Jadaro
My radio shack sells a pair of them for a buck fifty.
It is called a 101
I hope you can find it.

jeanna
here is the part number...
100pF 50V 10% Hi-Q Ceramic Disc Capacitor
Model: 272-123 | Catalog #: 272-123

$1.49

THankyou very much - I've had bad luck with the local RS, so i started shopping at a more professional store nearby, they carry lots of NTE parts, but few capacitors or inductors, RS doesn't carry any inductors.

I've so far, order from goldmine twice and not been disappointed - their 'suprise' packages really are always a surprise ...they had one 'random electrical parts', it was like 3 lbs of random stuff, had a bunch of 1.2kv capacitors, relays, 12 neons, a few microphones, an a bunch of other random stuff.

Their didode grab bag has like 200 something diodes, testing some of them with my DMM, and I can see that some of them only have a .3 to .4 volt drop, which will come in handy, ...

@all, regarding simplicity:

I think it is a great aspiration to do so, but the more I see people 'tuning' their circuits, the more complicated things become.

I notices Jeanna was adding extra inductors, ..you might try replacing them with an extra loop or two on the main toroid and see what happens? ..this may be counter productive though, ..I see you joined two toroids, ..there's extra space out there.

And Xee has been working on the 'linear' model on the other thread, with a secondary, I've tested this, it works, though I'm only getting between 3 and 14 volts boost, the dual transistor model is showing promise.

All of these circuits require common transistors, only a few of them are using power mosfets.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 05, 2010, 01:34:36 PM

IST:

Please post your comments that are off-topic in PM and spare the rest of the folks here, thank you. I am always inviting new folks to join our group from Youtube, and other places, and I would really hate for them to come here and see this last batch of posts of yours.

@ Tink:

There is an ignore feature, it is in your messaging preferences. It is a little confusing in that it looks like you will just be ignoring pm's but it also blocks every post of whomever you put on your list, in every topic.

@ Freepow:

Yes, it is always possible to have less amp draw then an LED is rated for when using a JT circuit. That is part of the beauty of this circuit. I may be wrong but a large part of that comes from the fact that it is not "on" all of the time. It is flashing on/off so fast your eyes see it as on all the time. If you make a tank circuit you can get your amp draw way lower than you have it now with the same led. One thing I have found with those ultrabright leds is that, the 265,000 MCD, which actually has 5 chips on it, is brighter than the 26,000 MCD LED but now that much brighter. I don't use those much anymore as the 5 chip led appears only maybe 10% brighter but at much too high a cost in energy. If you think about it, without doing anything fancy, you can run 5 26,000 MCD LEDs for less energy than you can run one of those big ones. You will have a lot more light this way, in my experience.

I hope this helps. Jeanna and the others can explain to you what you need for a tank circuit.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 05, 2010, 02:44:53 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 05, 2010, 01:34:36 PM
IST:

Please post your comments that are off-topic in PM and spare the rest of the folks here, thank you. I am always inviting new folks to join our group from Youtube, and other places, and I would really hate for them to come here and see this last batch of posts of yours.

@ Tink:

There is an ignore feature, it is in your messaging preferences. It is a little confusing in that it looks like you will just be ignoring pm's but it also blocks every post of whomever you put on your list, in every topic.

@ Freepow:

Yes, it is always possible to have less amp draw then an LED is rated for when using a JT circuit. That is part of the beauty of this circuit. I may be wrong but a large part of that comes from the fact that it is not "on" all of the time. It is flashing on/off so fast your eyes see it as on all the time. If you make a tank circuit you can get your amp draw way lower than you have it now with the same led. One thing I have found with those ultrabright leds is that, the 265,000 MCD, which actually has 5 chips on it, is brighter than the 26,000 MCD LED but now that much brighter. I don't use those much anymore as the 5 chip led appears only maybe 10% brighter but at much too high a cost in energy. If you think about it, without doing anything fancy, you can run 5 26,000 MCD LEDs for less energy than you can run one of those big ones. You will have a lot more light this way, in my experience.

I hope this helps. Jeanna and the others can explain to you what you need for a tank circuit.

Bill

IS THAT SO ....

shall i remind you too!

BILL when did you start this topic how and why ... ? young effect .. right ! yea thought so ...

and b4 than i had this all done long time...... thank you ...

i have SHARED MY WORK THANK YOU !

why dont you share MORE OF YOUR WORK! LOL

oops ... ALREADY PAST MOST OF IT EH?

the clowns can ONLY RIPP SOMEONE OFF SO LONG ... then he startes to tell a little more ...

hummmmm

cold zap a cap to a coil 2 open ends ... STUDY THE RESULT!

W815H

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 05, 2010, 03:37:28 PM

Quote from: freepow on January 05, 2010, 08:30:42 AM

My question is this... My Super Bright LED is rated at 100mA draw current, and I want to try and light
it at the brightest I can get it and at the same time drawing the least current from my AA-battery.

As you can see from the data up top, a 14,14 Bif wound toroid was drawing 54.6 mA from my battery,
but at 18,18 Bif wound toroid it was drawing 40.6 mA from my battery, and the LED seemed just as
bright with either wound toroid.

Is it possible to light an LED very brightly while drawing lesser current than what its rated at ?????
would you need higher voltage so you can lessen the current it draws ????

Freepow,
The answer is yes.
I agree with what Bill has to say.

There are many more ways to light a led than with amps draw.

The reason for the secondary is that it is a way around the amps draw problem.

I have always been able to get a good oscillation from 2 different kinds of windings.
This is a hard thing to say.

I mean that while I get great results with the 11T,11T when using the tor-23, I can get the same or much better results when winding that toroid with 5T,8T

It is probably a harmonics thing and that is how I prefer to think of it.

So, please try to remove the turns from the original 15T,15T and see what happens.
My suggestion is to unwind the one that connects to the base first and check the secondary output and the amps draw with every turn .
Then unwind the coil connecting to the collector and check the amps draw and the output on the secondary too.
When the improvement stops then you can stop unwinding.
Once you are in the ball park you can mess around with the base resistor and when you do that you might need to subtract or adjust the turns a little more.

I cannot remember which person I recently told to use the Hazens1 method of turns, but I will repeat it here again.

If you can look at this symbolic drawing and see that it is a centertapped primary where the end of one is connected to the beginning of the other, you will see how easy this is to unwind and adjust the turns.
/////||//////// this is 5T,8T. I made 5 hash marks then 2 pipes which represent the wires twisted together in the center tap which will be in the pos battery. then the 8 hash marks represent the 8T and the ends of the 5T and 8T are what go into the Base or base resistor, and the Collector..

This is not hard or even tedious when done like this.
Just remember your pencil! ;)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on January 05, 2010, 04:00:03 PM

@ Freepow
Bill has answered your question very well. One point, I assume these output voltages are measured unloaded. As you can see the circuit impedance or DC resistance increases as you add more turns, the switching current decreases and the voltage rises. An affect on the frequency also takes place. You don't necessary need more voltage if your intention is to illuminate just one LED, but as Bill has mention you can gain more light to energy by using a combination. All LED's have a safe limit to their maximum operating currents which can vary from around 20Ma upwards depending on type. Should you go beyond this limit they start to run hot and quickly burn out. The JT circuit gives a series of high energy short duration voltage pulses, but because the current is being pulsed and not a steady state continuous dc voltage as you would see from a battery cell, the LED will appear very bright but with a lower risk of damage due to the off/on state of the driving voltage. You can add more LED's in series without increasing the current draw depending on your available voltage on load. Any combinations in parallel will not affect the voltage but will increase the current. M

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 05, 2010, 04:12:30 PM

i will apoligize to the long standing hard working members of this site ...

you know who you are .. t5he ones that MADE IT WHAT IT IS ..
and new commers like kooler and others that expairment ! to yous is where my apoligy is dirrected ...

the usual ones that come in thinking .. THEY KNOW ALL .. get no apolgies... they can cry CUZ THEY LOST THERE BALLONS!

what ever

to the people who choose to let it rip then let it rip!
many more discoveries do lay ahead !

if i could finally get my materials ....... GADGET!

i could build even more things and share them as i always have!

william

i hate to destory an old project as i run out of materials but this happins from time to time ... : (

o well

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on January 05, 2010, 04:32:37 PM

Here we go again! yet another scurmish brewing up... WE DON'T WANT TO KNOW about your differences, this is not the place for off topic rubbish like this.
I'm a new member and joined because I have a keen interest in the sites topics, and as an electronics engineer / designer I can offer the benefit of my experience as and when I am able to do so.
If you can't make a serious contrubution to benefit the topic then keep away PLEASE.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 05, 2010, 04:44:29 PM

@ist

Be the bigger man , chose withdraw , you are on quick sand , buddy ...

Why would it mater what others think...

We worked hard so that we get a nice forum where everyone can help .

Don't bring the circus over here , dumb dumb.

I consider this subject closed.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 05, 2010, 07:40:29 PM

The subject is closed. We do NOT do this here.

Thank you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 05, 2010, 09:34:57 PM

I tried a little something with the conical pancake today.

EESH
I wound a wee little jt on a 3/4 inch toroid, then I made a 6 turn secondary, and
It went into resonance with a beautiful ring looking like a ring.
with 6 turns it makes
70v
33.8khz
56mA

now, 70 volts will light up 10 leds nicely and that makes 5.6mA each.
But the very best part is that the resonance does not quit.
Whenever our batteries run down, the circuit goes out of resonance.
I have not seen this go out of resonance yet.
It makes sense because of the conical shape.
This looks like a mini wardencliff tower.
I have not yet made a Dr Stiffler radiance tower. I better make one so I get how to connect things, or what happens.
Maybe jonnydavro's pie pans will work.
I want to scale this up, but I am not much with building these things.
Have a look.
It is short and basically unedited.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9fbn01_clA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9fbn01_clA)

thank you,

Jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 05, 2010, 10:11:41 PM

Jeanna:

That is very interesting. How many turns are on your conical coil? Was it mag wire or insulated stranded wire? If we can figure out why this does this, it will be a good clue for us. I wonder what Jonnydavro would have to say about this? You should pm him on Youtube and attach this video for him to see.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on January 05, 2010, 10:11:59 PM

@ Jeanna

Are all your 10 LED's lit at there brightest with your small JT ??
You have 6 turns on secondary, how many other turns on toroid do you have ???

Is your current draw 56 mA ???

Or would 1x LED light brighter than your 10 on this JT of yours??
What do you mean when you say the resonance does not quit ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on January 05, 2010, 10:15:16 PM

Quote from: jeanna on January 05, 2010, 09:34:57 PM
I tried a little something with the conical pancake today.

EESH
I wound a wee little jt on a 3/4 inch toroid, then I made a 6 turn secondary, and
It went into resonance with a beautiful ring looking like a ring.
with 6 turns it makes
70v
33.8khz
56mA

now, 70 volts will light up 10 leds nicely and that makes 5.6mA each.
But the very best part is that the resonance does not quit.
Whenever our batteries run down, the circuit goes out of resonance.
I have not seen this go out of resonance yet.
It makes sense because of the conical shape.
This looks like a mini wardencliff tower.
I have not yet made a Dr Stiffler radiance tower. I better make one so I get how to connect things, or what happens.
Maybe jonnydavro's pie pans will work.
I want to scale this up, but I am not much with building these things.
Have a look.
It is short and basically unedited.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9fbn01_clA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9fbn01_clA)

thank you,

Jeanna

Great video Jeanna

I know you have been doing the conical coil thing a while ........ I have been busy with other struff......... I have not kept up.

Have you tried a bifilar conical coil JT.......I mean only bifilar conical coil.........no toroid .?

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on January 05, 2010, 10:21:38 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 05, 2010, 10:11:41 PM
Jeanna:

That is very interesting. How many turns are on your conical coil? Was it mag wire or insulated stranded wire? If we can figure out why this does this, it will be a good clue for us. I wonder what Jonnydavro would have to say about this? You should pm him on Youtube and attach this video for him to see.

Bill

I would say from my playing with my longwire JT and because the toroid needs to sit on the conical coil that the conical coil becomes part of the secondary

The fact that it does not drop out of resonance easily may make a huge difference in the efficiency of the stuff we build in the future

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 05, 2010, 10:24:41 PM

Quote from: jeanna on January 05, 2010, 09:34:57 PM
I tried a little something with the conical pancake today.

EESH
I wound a wee little jt on a 3/4 inch toroid, then I made a 6 turn secondary, and
It went into resonance with a beautiful ring looking like a ring.
with 6 turns it makes
70v
33.8khz
56mA

now, 70 volts will light up 10 leds nicely and that makes 5.6mA each.
But the very best part is that the resonance does not quit.
Whenever our batteries run down, the circuit goes out of resonance.
I have not seen this go out of resonance yet.
It makes sense because of the conical shape.
This looks like a mini wardencliff tower.
I have not yet made a Dr Stiffler radiance tower. I better make one so I get how to connect things, or what happens.
Maybe jonnydavro's pie pans will work.
I want to scale this up, but I am not much with building these things.
Have a look.
It is short and basically unedited.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9fbn01_clA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9fbn01_clA)

thank you,

Jeanna

love ya !

lol

what about air core jt and 2 feroite cones .... ?

: )

great work as usual!

J

w

should you go this rute you can employ my orbit coil ... with out ANY TRANSISTOR ...

feel free J your more than welcome to use anything you choose!

btw what i was getting at is try pnp and npn in the same coil ! same wire oppisite dirrections!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 05, 2010, 10:29:06 PM

Hi Gary,
Yes, I started there.
I think the little 2 inch cone made about 2-3 volts when I used it as a primary.
I don't remember, but it was better when I stuck some nails inside, and that was tricky to say the least.
Later on that day I tried to make the cone incorporated into the secondary and I got about 21 volts and I saw an amazing wave and posted that one too.
It was able to light 3 leds in series at that time.

I actually put it down until today.
I needed to let it simmer in my head a little.

This toroid is somewhat bigger and fits over the top in a way that I think makes a difference.
I think that because when I was playing with it that first day, I could clearly see that the effect happened when the center of the toroid was surrounding the peak of the cone.

I am thinking I should make the wire that comes out and is connected to the scope probe into a sending thing.
It is so shabby and wants to fall over so much it is even hard to do a preliminary test with it, but that is where I want to go.

I am grateful to jonnydavro for starting the aluminum pie pan thing. I think I might be able to combine this with that.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 05, 2010, 10:55:13 PM

@Bill,

QuoteHow many turns are on your conical coil? Was it mag wire

I do not know how many thrns, maybe 30 of each color?
I lose count on a good day and this had no reference place for counting. and many are overlapped, because the poster paper bent and got weird... so, it is hard to count now.

Quote from: freepow on January 05, 2010, 10:11:59 PM

Are all your 10 LED's lit at there brightest with your small JT ??

they are in series and the same brightness.

QuoteYou have 6 turns on secondary, how many other turns on toroid do you have ???

The tor-61 has 4T,9T for the primary, and 6T secondary.
What follows is a series connection to the cone pancake coil.

QuoteIs your current draw 56 mA ???

You know, I don't know.
If I were to put a 33 ohm resistor into that and compute with ohms law, it would probably be 5mA but the volts out would be lower.
I realized a while ago that the amps draw is what it is from the basic jt circuit and that is all. I am watching this aspect too, but I am not at all sure that measuring the amps draw is very accurate.

Quote
Or would 1x LED light brighter than your 10 on this JT of yours??

1 led would last about 2 seconds then it would pop out.
It would be possible to put 9 or 8 but I would not advise any fewer than this.

QuoteWhat do you mean when you say the resonance does not quit ?

When you find the point of resonance in a circuit you see that characteristic ring that is in the video.
It is a very narrow band, however, and if you sneeze on it or certainly if you decrease the volts going in you will move to a place out of resonance and the output which is very special will drop to a normal level.
In this case I would expect the volts of 3T,9T,6T to be about 12v. In a real transformer the volts would be stepped down and be less than 1.2 v going in, but we have already seen the special case that in a jtc this is no so.

However, a 6T secondary should be 6-12v . (I can check in a little while.)
So, the only way that this can be 70v is because of the series coil that is coming after the wire leaves the core.
That is fine, but this is staying at resonance and my guess is because it is from the cone shape. Each turn has a different radius and I believe it self tunes.

These are my thoughts at this moment.

thank you,

jeanna

add:
@ist

Quote2 feroite cones .... ?

The second one seemed to "put out" the first one! I did that a while ago, and I still have the other cone, but it was down rather than up.

@gary I think it is different when it is in series and after the wire leaves the toroid core.
j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on January 05, 2010, 11:17:39 PM

@ Jeanna, great video, what is the conical coil ??

@ all others , thanks for your info too !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 05, 2010, 11:53:45 PM

Quote from: freepow on January 05, 2010, 11:17:39 PM
@ Jeanna, great video, what is the conical coil ??

I made a pic the other day.
This was too fuzzy (so I did not post it) but if you look under the 2x toroids you will see the toroid.
I used this today but with a different single toroid.

Jeanna

edit
I made the conical coil the following way.
I held 2 similar pieces of mag wire together and wound up the paper form.
The diameter got fatter and fatter.
I stopped when I lost control of the form. It was very light and after a while the wires made it want to fly out of my hands.
When it was finished there were 2 wire ends at the top and 2 ends at the bottom.
I sanded the ends and connected the beginning of one to the end of the other the way we do with the primary of the jt.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 06, 2010, 12:03:47 AM

just thought i would add this ... bout the magic maker ...

im doing slef run mode ...

i have a problem with MY DRIVEING BATTERY CHARGEING FAR TOOOOOOO FAST ....

I STARTED LOW LIKE 1.255 RUNNING AND NOw IM 1.265 3 MIN OF PLAY ....

yikes ...

thought i would share ..

I CAN PROVE THIS AND IT IS DUPLICATABLE EVERYTIME !

MY RESTING VOLTAGE OF MY DRIVEING BATTERY IS NOW 1.270

in 3 min ...

of course i can explaine!

just shareing!

now to switch my 3055 cost me nothing .......

and my supply recharges far too fast ...

this is no ghost charge or bag of TRICKS ... lol it is not only holding when i turn off my unit but RECHARGEING WHEN IT IS TURN OFF BY DESIGN! IMAGINE...

and when it is running .. i drop .005 volts UNDER LOAD! and it CLIMBES AS WELL !

what more can i say

THANK YOU !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on January 06, 2010, 12:21:27 AM

Thanks for pic of conical, Is it a single wire coil running from bottom to top ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 06, 2010, 12:32:12 AM

jeanna
very interesting design there... ( TOWER of POWER )

ist
well done bro
is the feed back just a diode or is it filtered back with a cap
i had a circuit almost self run once 25-30 seconds .. got me excited and it died
i was using a inductor and diode back to a run cap on input

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 06, 2010, 04:04:32 AM

@All,
I have been having huge probs with my satellite broadband connection, turns out my Ethernet was the prob, now its working OK, but in 12 hours I blew all my hi speed download allowance for the entire month,(thanks to MS updates before I realised it) its knobbled back to 7k per second, (same as dialup grrrr) until its bed-i-byes time, but I ant staying up to all hours in the night for higher speeds.
Also I have to alter my email address.
-------------------------------

Back on P758, I see a cry for help, how to connect a AMP meter to a circuit to measure Amps.
I dont know if anyone replied as I havent got that far ahead, just in case here is the answer.
And before anyone asks, yes I do know of 2 people on this forum who don't know how to do this, and there might be more.

The DMM will usually have several connection jacks for measuring Volts, Ohms, U-Ma (micro to milli amps) and Amps (10 amp limit)

Leave the Black lead in the (C) or Common Jack
Remove the Red lead and put it in the 10Amp Jack or the u or Ma Jack

Switch the DMM to the correct "RANGE" or place indicated on the meter, which can handle the "current" which you think will flow.
If in doubt, switch to the 10Amp position (range).

Connect the RED lead from the METER to power supply or battery.
Connect the Black lead from the METER (C) or Common Jack to the [LOAD]
(because you are measuring current, (+) POSitave will flow through the black lead now).

Connect the NEG wire from the power supply or Battery to the circuit.

See the jpg photos and circuit I made.
------------------------------------------

To measure total current flow by JT and Load.
Place the DMM leads between the 1.5v (+) Positave and the Joule Thief.

To measure the current drawn from a LED or Motor.
Place the DMM Leads between the JT (+) to the (LOAD)

jim

PS its always best to have a dedicated meter setup to measure Amps or U-Ma amps, saves all the wire swapping or forgetting to set it back to volts and blowing the meter.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on January 06, 2010, 06:25:19 AM

@ Jim, good to see you back here ! Hope things go OK for you soon !!!

What is the diff. between...(A) To measure total current flow by JT and Load.
Place the DMM leads between the 1.5v (+) Positave and the Joule Thief.

And... (B) To measure the current drawn from a LED or Motor.
Place the DMM Leads between the JT (+) to the (LOAD)

Is this right... If you have a JT with LED, and you want to measure total current getting drawn from your
battery, you then place DMM(+) and (-)leads between the battery(+) and JT(+)
... CORRECT ?

What then is the difference between (A) and (B) ???
what exactly do you connect DMM(+) lead to and DMM (-) lead to for (B) ???
Sorry for all the questions but I want to get it right.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 06, 2010, 09:49:18 AM

@ all

Here is a new circuit I have developed that will light a fluorescent tube as bright as a regular Joule thief using only one half the power. Using a 3 volt battery the tube is much brighter and will light when only connected with one wire (not as bright with just one wire). This is just the original circuit, I think the power can be reduced even more by optimizing the component values. I also think it will work with a smaller coil, but I have not tried that yet. It should also work better if a higher gain PNP transistor is used.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 06, 2010, 10:10:32 AM

Quote from: kooler on January 06, 2010, 12:32:12 AM
jeanna
very interesting design there... ( TOWER of POWER )

ist
well done bro
is the feed back just a diode or is it filtered back with a cap
i had a circuit almost self run once 25-30 seconds .. got me excited and it died
i was using a inductor and diode back to a run cap on input

hey ya bro

i have MANY WAYS I will test out to day ... but what you explain is close to what i have done ...

i worked on it most of the night

i tryed it on other batteries to see it was not a fluke ...

it does work this way but a BAD way to do it ... as it will change its tune as voltage increases ..

this is what happined ... in the SUPER RECHARGE UNIT .. I FIRST TRYED AND reported back!

it filled the 1.2vdc rechargeable in record time ...

i have been LOOKING AT THE SMALLEST OF DETAILS ...

basically im getting to the POINT WHERE MY COIL DOES NOT MATTER!

: )

I WILL CONTINUE TO SHARE ...

for only those with eyes to see...

w

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 06, 2010, 11:45:17 AM

i have improved the set up by adding another step

on the off cycle i have 3 meters 1 mesures driveing battery next super cap .. next feed back battery bank ...

here are a few pics of the meters device is on off cycle / recharge!

thease are the standing voltages as the cap and bank drain back to source ... source climbs as it should ...

thanks for peeking!

ist!

voltages as it sits are db 1.285
super cap 3.43
bank 4.99

the last 2 drain till they can push no more ...

im still changeing things to find the BEST WAY!

i have been looking for 1 of my mk1 mods to improve out put!

cant find it yet ... but i will ....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on January 06, 2010, 12:18:51 PM

Quote from: xee2 on January 06, 2010, 09:49:18 AM
@ all

Here is a new circuit I have developed that will light a fluorescent tube as bright as a regular Joule thief using only one half the power. Using a 3 volt battery the tube is much brighter and will light when only connected with one wire (not as bright with just one wire). This is just the original circuit, I think the power can be reduced even more by optimizing the component values. I also think it will work with a smaller coil, but I have not tried that yet. It should also work better if a higher gain PNP transistor is used.

You could try using a Darlington pair, pnp, if they make such a thing.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 06, 2010, 08:06:23 PM

Hello Every one . Is everybody Into the new 2010 Spirit ? Free energy Year 4 sure . Hey it is supposed to SNOW tomorrow . We are Excited ,me and my snow baby A . For the past 4 years we get excited everytime they say. Its goinf to snow tomorrow :) Never does and usually only a dusting but i really think it will happen this time . Well look what the UPS man drugg up to my door step . Is that aZBig coil or what . No its 10 pounds of #20 Essax wire . A full spool i won for 20 bucks !! .Dirt Cheap and enuff wire to wind thru this winter and thenext and thenext . O fun ! ..

Cheers everyone . Be happy .

Still waiting for the "magic boards" from GL so nothing but some time on my hands playing with Lidmotors fan coil magnet spinner . Fun !

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 06, 2010, 08:18:27 PM

HMM . Deleted Double post ??? :-[

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 06, 2010, 08:23:50 PM

Oh Gadget, you reminded me.
I got a call from MMI this morning asking me how my progress with the toroids went and if I thought I would be buying any in the future...

I of course, was perfectly honest with him, and downstream in the conversation it appears that he will ask his marketing managers to talk to mouser.
This person was not aware of mouser, and I am glad I told him.

I think if those who want to buy them can go to mouser and ask for them, it will help everybody get what we all need.

0W48613TC is the catalogue number for the big gold.

I believe you, gadget had a bigger size like 4 inches, but I do not know the item number.

AND, if you, gadget, want to take this on it would be appreciated, and if not, probably mouser can get these.
It is clear to me that this item which is so cheap is hard for us to get only because it is used in OEM applications as a filter, and not a big part of the experimenters tool kit.
This needs to change fast if we are to have 8-12 lights in every house.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 07, 2010, 07:33:43 AM

just thought i would share my tickel charger!

it is a neat thing... and i think i have found how it works ..

im now useing 2 5.5v1f supercaps loaded to 10.5vdc

and 3 cell fone batteries ...

i set the tickel charger up off a secondary cell foner ! i used 5 diodes backward to tickel it !

apears to work ...

in this picture you see 3 meters my magic maker is operating the supply is under load!
voltage 1.145 from the aa 2500mha engerizer
second center meter is the 2 supercaps hooked up togather .. 11.02vdc
last meter is the voltage of the 3 cell fone batteries 11.11 vdc!

2 loins and a nicad!
3.7v l ion x 2 and a 4.5v nicad!

it took a long time for my supercaps to charge to FULL POWER! AS THEY DO they bring the batteries with them when i throw the off switch i have the tickle charge system employed ..

peace!

w

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 07, 2010, 11:35:53 AM

my goal was to get my BACK SIDE VOLTAGE MUCH HIGHER

THIS I HAVE ACHIVED ...

next goal was a tickle feed back when the device was in off mode!

THIS I HAVE ACHEIVED!

next goal is to drive from 12vdc source or close ... from my lonely aa

this i have acheived !

so next i have a 12vdc adaptor i will use to feed back CURRENT TO SOURCE!

thank you

yep just some more of MY WORK !

mr magg DID YOU TUNE A PATATO? LOL

if the picture you showed public is YOUR WORK ! that IS A NICE TOUCH

A MAGGS TUNED AND TAPPED PATATO lol driveing A FILIMENT BULB ...

i did notice the SIzE OF METALS IN THE PATATO .. and i do wonder if the 2 metals are equal mass .. and if the distance of the 2 plates in the patato allow you to draw large engery from it ?

it is a patato theif!

hot patato ta duh! !

: )

w

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 07, 2010, 12:24:40 PM

BEING I HAVE BEEN UN ABLE TO GET MY ULTRA BOOST CAPS I PAYED FOR AS OF YET

I WILL DESIGN A UNIT THAT DOES NOT NEED THEM ....

THANK YOU

SO NOW EVERYONE CAN SAVE A TONNE OF MONEY!

AND THE BOOST CAPS CAN CRASH AND BURN!

YOU SEE BOUT 3 YEARS AGO NOW I BUILT A CAP CHARGER / SPECIALITY DETECTOR THAT PRODUCES A WAVE ! IDEPENDENT TO MY DEVICES AND SPESIFIC TO MY DEVICE ...

: ) IT RAN ON A D BATTERY EMPLOYED A ROTATING EATHER SPINNER AND CHARGED CAPS USED INDUCTION AND MAGNETICS TO RINGGGGG IT ... AND IT ALSO EMPLOYED MY NEO ZAP ...

AND A SELF RUN CAP YIKES .... IT RAN WITH GAIN

i dont need to explain it ... i did that longgggg time ago ...

RIGHT MY DOOR BELL!

I WAS 5TH EVER TO COME UP WITH SUCH A DEVICE!

THANKS FOR READING MY WORK !

W

BTW GADGET ..... LOL HOPE YOU REMEMBER WHOS TOYS YOU PLAY WITH .....

ID HATE TO POST THINGS ... YOU WRITE HERE !

first pic my external rotating magic feild!

second pic my OLD CAP CHARGER ... SOME WILL NEVER FIGURE OUT !

RA !

AND NOW THE CLOWN SONG http ://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbWyq6MRUX8

CUZ SHES SO HIGH ABOVE ME ... AND THERE IS BUT 1 ... THANK YOU SHE IS MY BLOOD!

ISIS

CAN YOU MAKE MY VIOLIN SINGGGGGG..... SURE I CAN YEARS AGO ... you see it puts out a VERRRRRRRRRRY LONG WAVE THAT DOES NOT GO UN NOTICED!

AND gadget if you have level 4 CLEARANCE ... ASK BOUT IT .... LOL ; )
but i highly doubt your l4 clearance will grant you access to my HIGH LEVEL WORK ; ) SORRY BUT ... THE TRUTH !

BTW TAL only made the 1 song..... lol ... cuz THE NET RIPPED HIM OFF... LMFAO

SO LOOKS LIKE HE HAD BEEN REPAID ... BALLONS YANKED FROM CLOWNS ...

cant you see...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 07, 2010, 12:56:25 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 07, 2010, 11:35:53 AM
mr magg DID YOU TUNE A PATATO? LOL

if the picture you showed public is YOUR WORK ! that IS A NICE TOUCH

A MAGGS TUNED AND TAPPED PATATO lol driveing A FILIMENT BULB ...

i did notice the SIzE OF METALS IN THE PATATO .. and i do wonder if the 2 metals are equal mass .. and if the distance of the 2 plates in the patato allow you to draw large engery from it ?

it is a patato theif!

hot patato ta duh! !

: )

w

Stop being an ass, I thought you were already warned. Just send my generator back LIKE YOU PROMISED and all will be fine.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 07, 2010, 01:35:45 PM

AND now for the next stunt !

anyone ever cap cascaded? lol

my my my

i will no longer carry on your sig gen conversation here mr magg...

i did not bring up the patato because you lol

but because it can be tuned as my coils can be tuned ......

hummmmm

for the record i PROMISSED YOU NOTHING MAGS...

has anyone tryed to tune a patato? i think it is possible to pull much larger engeries from 1 ...

w

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 07, 2010, 01:46:44 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 05, 2010, 01:47:14 AM
mr mag you gave me the sig gen wich i have offered to ship back to you ... as i dont use it..

i am truley sorry for my poor money skills

i am borrowing money today to ship it back to you i hope to have it on the way tommorow

i will provide you with the tracking # as soon as i can ship it

agin please accept my deepest apoligy

i have not caused it any damage it still works fine

agin i am sorry

i thank you for your help in the matter and be hold the truth

it is publicly on the way

;)

william

I did PM you but you have not replied.

Just send it back. This is the end of the conversation as far as I'm concerned. This is no place to discuss these issues.
I feel embarrassed to put this on this thread but people need to know you and what your word means. Nothing.
At least I exposed you as the fake that you are.

I'm out. Sorry everyone.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on January 07, 2010, 02:00:24 PM

Hi Gagdet once you've said that you're charging back the 1.5v battery with the Ucap. How do you do this? just plug the positive and the neg of the batt to the Ucap polarities?
Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 07, 2010, 05:12:39 PM

I have been conducting more tests on the npn can unit ... and i replaced the cell fone batteries with a 12vdc gel

you bet it charges it !

lol

NO ULTRA BOOST CAP NEEDED !

HUMMMMMM

i started at 7.5 vdc in the 12vdc 3.6 ah battery ....

up over 9vdc ... and plenty of push in my lonely aa ...

then i pulled out a MOT ... :) AND MY MONSTER MOT! ; )

so you can see the diffrance ... in size ..

w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAGmEsWjaws

now if i were to employ a few other of MY REAL TRICKS ... ii

i can melt those mots ........ hummm

any how just playing the NICE CARD and shareing as i have always done!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 07, 2010, 07:57:55 PM

Quote from: guruji on January 07, 2010, 02:00:24 PM
Hi Gagdet once you've said that you're charging back the 1.5v battery with the Ucap. How do you do this? just plug the positive and the neg of the batt to the Ucap polarities?
Thanks

HI . They are hard to charge up and not a "normal capacitor . Think of them as trying to charge up a direct short . they will remain that way for days until they reach .5 volts at which time your led should light . I don't try to charge them from dead 0 . Hit them with a 6 or 12 volt battery for a second or two and get the volts up to .5 then they will take over. there is NOTHING an old cap charger can do for these . further more there is no energy in regular capacitors like battery caps . Ask anyone who own one. Bill even know this .
Mrmags i doubt your will get anything from IST . He has already threatened me in Pm's > i am simply waiting almost 2 month waiting for a dang shipping charge he ows for 60 pounds of electronic stuff and he really didn't know when to quit . His mess will sit here until the end of the month and then I'll put it in a storage bin and he will have to pay the storage fees plus shipping . I have been way too generous even taking my time and account to purchase these things for him being he could not do it himself for some strange reason . Anyways a friend he was and i was probably the only one he really had but there you go . NEVER TRUST ANYONE > i should have know as My best friend for life ran off with My now Xwife :)

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 07, 2010, 08:14:39 PM

Sorry to hear that Gadget. I know, it's really pretty sad. You try to help someone out and see what you get. I wouldn't say don't trust anyone. There are a lot of very good people here that I would trust. I just don't like it when you help someone out and then they start calling you names. That's bad karma. I think it's pretty funny now that he shows the generator in his pictures. I know I will never see it again, I just like to rub him a bit. If you get stuck with the parts, let me know. I'm just about ready to start playing again. Maybe I can work something out with you. Good luck!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 07, 2010, 09:37:50 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on January 07, 2010, 07:57:55 PM
HI . They are hard to charge up and not a "normal capacitor . Think of them as trying to charge up a direct short . they will remain that way for days until they reach .5 volts at which time your led should light . I don't try to charge them from dead 0 . Hit them with a 6 or 12 volt battery for a second or two and get the volts up to .5 then they will take over. ....

I am so glad to hear this instruction.
Thank you. I am going to try it right now.

But what do you mean by

Quoteget the volts up to .5 then they will take over.

I think you mean I can now put this into the C-E spot with the diode and something might happen?
Thank you for this information as I had not been able to make your circuit work.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 07, 2010, 10:27:25 PM

MrMag:

I remember well you kind offer to loan me a scope. That is what motivated me to look on Ebay which is where I found the one I have now. (Tectronics) I will not forget your kind offer, and it is this type of cooperation amongst us that will help us move forward.

Thank you once again.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 07, 2010, 10:46:50 PM

Hi everybody,
I did a small test that took the last 3 days.

1--I used a circuit that produces 400-500v to run a LoA bulb and I let it run the battery down.
That took 6H20min for the photons to finally cease coming out of the bulb.
The end voltage in the battery was ~0.56v
I made a pic of it.

2--Then I used the exact same battery recharged in the exact cell of the recharger and repeated the test, this time using a string of 35 led christmas lights.
This took between 5h 45m and 7h 20min to completely stop lighting.(I was watching a movie )
the end voltage in the battery was~0.62v

3--So, today, I ran this same test with nothing in the output.
I used the same exact battery recharged in the same cell of the recharger.
At 6h30min the battery reached 0.72v.

I didn't try to make a light start until later, but it is a good possibility that my theory is close to right about what actually takes all the power in a joule thief circuit.

The upshot is, do not use a more powerful transistor than you need to give your output volts, because it will just run down the battery unnecessarily.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 07, 2010, 10:57:27 PM

Jeanna:

Thank you for those tests. This is very good information to know. This fits in with my wonderings about the TIP 3055 vs the reg. 3055 or the 2N3904. If we don't NEED it, don't use it. Thanks.

I started another light project tonight. This one is a variation on the Jeanna Light except I am using a Tupperware container and the light source is an 18" floro tube. The tube stands straight up form the container and I am only using a single 3 3/8" OD toroid this time. It looks kind of cool and if it lights, and lights brightly, it will be even cooler.

More to come when I get it done. I may name this one the Pirate/Lidmotor/Jeanna light. (Shiver me timbers)

Jim, Electricme, gave me an idea about winding the primary with 3 strands of 22 ga. wire twisted together and soldered on the ends. (and wound like it was one wire) It may help, it may not...we will see.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 07, 2010, 11:02:55 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 07, 2010, 10:27:25 PM
MrMag:

I remember well you kind offer to loan me a scope. That is what motivated me to look on Ebay which is where I found the one I have now. (Tectronics) I will not forget your kind offer, and it is this type of cooperation amongst us that will help us move forward.

Thank you once again.

Bill

I hope you find the one you have useful. From what I see there is a lot of cooperation going on in this thread. I wish I could give more input but I haven't been able to get close to my bench. Hopefully, I'll be able to start soon.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 07, 2010, 11:15:42 PM

Quote from: jeanna on January 07, 2010, 09:37:50 PM
I am so glad to hear this instruction.
Thank you. I am going to try it right now.

But what do you mean by I think you mean I can now put this into the C-E spot with the diode and something might happen?
Thank you for this information as I had not been able to make your circuit work.

jeanna

Hi Jeanna . I thought about what one of the members asked is the light on My secondary was lit when i charged the cap from the rectified ce junction . I said yes it was lit but i forgot that all my caps are setting at 0.500 volts . so when i put it on the ce junction ,yes the secondary leds light but if its lower than that no they dont light until it reaches .5 to .521 . They get brighter and brighter as the bcap reaches its peak . for me its between 2 volts and 2,6 . Also i notice that the JUMBO super bright leds actually light better than the cheap china 20000mcd 21 ma leds . better to go with a higher rated led like a strawhat or jumbo 10mm 100,000 mcd . they light quicker .

Albert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 07, 2010, 11:19:02 PM

Al:

Got any snow out there? We have plenty for this area. They are not used to it at all. More on the way from what I have read. This global warming is killing us all. 9 degrees F here tonight with a high of 19 on Friday.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 07, 2010, 11:34:07 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 07, 2010, 11:19:02 PM
Al:

Got any snow out there? We have plenty for this area. They are not used to it at all. More on the way from what I have read. This global warming is killing us all. 9 degrees F here tonight with a high of 19 on Friday.

Bill

NO ! . I am so sad . its 39 here . Every night this week was below freezing and in the 20's and now the day it was supposed to snow 42 and almost midnight and the tep is 39 for the last 4 hours ..they said it was going to snow but its not cold enuff . they say it might sprinkle and mix a few flakes at 6 am then clear out in an hour :( My girl is going to be so upset becuase she went to bed early to get up and play in it in the morning . darn . I hate Carolina . Never did like like it . I just got stuck here . We are going to move!

I thought oof a new project case . Iwas on the computer burning a disk and looking an almost empty blank cd case . its got a base and a clear top! also the 50 disk one is just about empty also . they will make n1ce cases
Everyone else if Lucky with snow . we are not and havent been since Asia was 4 she is 8 now .
Here my weather station . 39.9 outdoor temp and 59% humidity 0 wind . and 80 inside . 11:54pm
Albert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 07, 2010, 11:51:04 PM

well.. gadget
you should move a bit closer west in nc. i am so glad i didn't get the second batch of snow..
we got 15'' snow last time and i still have ice sheets in my parking lot.. i been working 8-10 hours a day outside in this 10-23 degree wind all week.. ..
plus if you move closer west we might be able to work together on a few things.. hahaha

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 07, 2010, 11:58:26 PM

Quote from: kooler on January 07, 2010, 11:51:04 PM
well.. gadget
you should move a bit closer west in nc. i am so glad i didn't get the second batch of snow..
we got 15'' snow last time and i still have ice sheets in my parking lot.. i been working 8-10 hours a day outside in this 10-23 degree wind all week.. ..
plus if you move closer west we might be able to work together on a few things.. hahaha

you know i agree with you .. Mabey maggie valley is far enuff :) Raleigh Greensboro Charolttet , forget them . I want some where the schools are nice and uncrouded .. Yea they always get snow over there west of Raleigh . the only thing we got going is Atlantic beach . I could do with just a big lake . we are too close to the Atlantic . Somehow i just know your were from around here:

ISt i won't give you a leg to stand on son . You have nothing to do with Groundloops boards and to claim them as your work when you cant even draw a schematic . well . You just show your colors . CLEAR

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 08, 2010, 12:00:21 AM

Hi Bill,
I am looking forward to your light stick. It should work as the other one. the primary is a little different from what you did. It is 2T,6T,330T.

what does this mean?

QuoteJim, Electricme, gave me an idea about winding the primary with 3 strands of 22 ga. wire twisted together and soldered on the ends. (and wound like it was one wire) It may help, it may not...we will see.

Why would you use something that would let the amps pour into the circuit?
It will be very interesting to do a time drain test on this too!
Do you have any rechargeable AAA? They take less time for this kind of test.

@gadget,

QuoteI thought about what one of the members asked if the light on My secondary was lit when i charged the cap from the rectified ce junction . I said yes it was lit but i forgot that all my caps are setting at 0.500 volts . so when i put it on the ce junction ,yes the secondary leds light but if its lower than that no they dont light until it reaches .5 to .521

So, in a way the secondary led is a kind of visual gauge for the charge in the bcap?

In jan, 1994, I think it was, there was 18 inches of snow every thursday night in Boston. This went on for 6 or 7 weeks with one break.
School was out every friday for all these weeks, then, as this went along, there was no room to put the snow, and the solution was to scoop it up with a backhoe and dump it into a dump truck which drove to the boston harbor and toss it into the water... not tea this time, just snow.

I made an avramenko plug tonight I think and it subtracted hugely from the output.
I do not know what to think.
Maybe I need more diodes?
I have 400-535 volts on this one, and I could try to use a bridge plus 2 diodes first, but this was a big disappointment.
Does anybody know about this?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 08, 2010, 12:01:39 AM

IST:

You had many fair warnings. Any more posts like the one I just removed will be removed also.

Thank you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 08, 2010, 12:05:29 AM

guys, it's warm where you live...

-15F here. -34 to -50 wind chill factor and that's nice outdoor weather... i just got back from walking to the store, at least it's a dry heat. :) snow, we got all the snow you could want. i could ship you some gadget ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 08, 2010, 12:08:35 AM

Wilby:

I just got back from a 30 minute round trip walk to the store myself. I almost froze my toroids off!!!!!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 08, 2010, 12:13:10 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 08, 2010, 12:08:35 AM
Wilby:

I just got back from a 30 minute round trip walk to the store myself. I almost froze my toroids off!!!!!

Bill

LOL, i hear that, chilled to the point of becoming superconductors. i had to wear my ski goggles (you don't want exposed skin with the windchill factor we have here tonight) for a 6 block walk...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 08, 2010, 12:17:36 AM

Williby :) . Sound like FUN to me ! Really I hate hot weather . Its what almost killed me .

Jeanna . Yep the lights are half bright when you tune that pot at the beginning of the Charging .5 and then go to almost 3/4 bright (enuff to hurt your eyes) when that cap reaches 2 volts . i am sorry you cannot get it . Just make on eand put it in the corner . The original one is still running now on the same aa battery for almost 6 1/2 weeks and still 1.3 volts .Whne those boards come this is going to be a winner for everyone . . I run 1 watt of leds on the original one . also the secondary has no diode but the leds light brighter one way .

Bill . you guys enjoy tha SNOW !! . Man . And oh Great . Its now 40 .7 at 12:20 :( :(

Albert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 08, 2010, 12:24:53 AM

@gadget

I will make you a deal , you pay shipping , and i can get you all the snow you will ever need for free...

Happy new year Al.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 08, 2010, 12:25:20 AM

well
it not to the point of me freezing my ferrite rod off .. but its still cold..

gadget
maggie valley has a restaurant worth moving there for
fried chicken to die 4......lol
but you should move a bit east of it .. like old fort or marion area.. very low pop. in the schools
and very low jobs also.. :'(

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 08, 2010, 12:30:17 AM

I will try it again, now I get it about the secondary led.

Remember, most of the time when there is a REALLY HUGE blizzard, it is preceded by a hot spell, because the cold air (from wilby's storm) is moving in a sine wave and pushing tropical air in front of it.
When I lived in Boston, I kept a down jacket and mits in the trunk for those strange surprises.
So, Little A might be smiling tomorrow yet...

kooler just gave me an idea, I'm gonna try now...

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 08, 2010, 12:46:41 AM

jeanna
this is how i lit my 1st cfl... very bright.. bifi A
wth.. it post the same pic twice..sheeeeessssh

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 08, 2010, 12:48:54 AM

No kooler, it is the same. 142v from 14T secondary either way. Well, the look of it might be better... like higher frequency, but hard to say.
Thanks for the clear pic, too!

I guess as xee2 said, it is mostly the number of turns and the permeability of the toroid that determines the output from the secondary.

What made the tower of power different is the fact that it is in resonance... and stays there.
It is also a series inductor added to the secondary.
I have yet to devise a way to check out that part of it in any other way.

thanks for the idea.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 08, 2010, 01:01:26 AM

@all

I have a question , what if we used the led to lower the voltage from the secondary , Will it raise the miliamp output from the pickup coil.

Like converting static pulse into steady output ?

Any idea? ...

I know i did not sleep last night ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 08, 2010, 01:08:00 AM

@ all
i ordered me some more different types of scrs and sidacs the other day.. the reason i haven't showed you guys what i been doing is i took a pretty big shock... 120 from the wall feels better than this,
it burned thru my skin on my fingers but i was pushing 3 volts at 60ma's thru it...
luckly it blew a scr.. cause i could not let go..
just goes to show that being carefull isn't enough.. one hand in your pocket still seems to creep out and touch the circuit somehow some times..
so i do not advise anyone to build my circuit and try to go big with it.. after the third stage it gets to f***ing dangerous
i had no ideal that a 450 uf cap held so much power at 327 volts
once i regain nerve you will see more videos

thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 08, 2010, 01:08:25 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 08, 2010, 12:24:53 AM
@gadget

I will make you a deal , you pay shipping , and i can get you all the snow you will ever need for free...

Happy new year Al.

You make me smile Mark . It will melt too fast ! its 41.9 now @1:08 ..
Happy new year Sir mk1.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 08, 2010, 01:11:46 AM

Al:

The snow would not melt if MK1 emailed it to you. Of course, he would have to scan it first which might be problematic.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 08, 2010, 01:15:06 AM

Quote from: kooler on January 08, 2010, 12:25:20 AM
well
it not to the point of me freezing my ferrite rod off .. but its still cold..

gadget
maggie valley has a restaurant worth moving there for
fried chicken to die 4......lol
but you should move a bit east of it .. like old fort or marion area.. very low pop. in the schools
and very low jobs also.. :'(

Sounds Perfect ! A good education . no gangs and no work . Just what im lookin for . / I'll get me some information .i am serious set on moving from here before 2012 . gonna get me a cave and far away from the ocean ! one good meteor in the Atlantic and im 500 feet under water . And i am retired so if there is something to do like eat or collect rocks and pick up soe wind for the genny and some sun for the panels . we will be happy !.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 08, 2010, 01:39:01 AM

2all

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVn7tmTMu98&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMKs9VXmlOA&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIH_CdLTaIM

This is real cool !

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8609.msg220403#new

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 08, 2010, 01:39:15 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 08, 2010, 01:01:26 AM
@all

I have a question , what if we used the led to lower the voltage from the secondary , Will it raise the miliamp output from the pickup coil.

Like converting static pulse into steady output ?

Any idea? ...

I know i did not sleep last night ...

It is worth a try,
but...

On the scope, when I look at the secondary output first with a led in the CE then without it, the DC line stays in the same place. Only the spikes get small.
I think this is the only one indication that it would not make the difference.
It is the crazy phenomenon of the back spike with a quick and sharp spike that has no amps from the primary part of the circuit.

It was part of what I was trying to see when I did that time test with no leds at all.
It just didn't matter to the circuit what was or was not on that secondary.

[It is starting to pour... maybe this will turn to snow by the time it gets to NC!]

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 08, 2010, 01:50:34 AM

@MK1:

That is really cool. I have been subscribed to that guy for a little while now. he does some nice work.

@ Jeanna:

Thank you for the input. I will use your winding recommendations on this one. Since this same tube lit pretty bright on the Fuji, I would think that your circuit will do an even better job of it.

Thanks,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on January 08, 2010, 02:59:27 AM

@ jeanna,

Sorry for not coming back to you sooner. An additional winding on my JT, 4 turns of mag wire = 22 volts. BTW, I made a mistake with the output voltage it is infact just under 300volts I had not calibrated the scope probe!
This JT configuration... is 28T+28T, 5k base and BC547 transistor. frequency = 5.7kHz. with 9 strand insulated hook up wire. I agree as you have suggested, large power transistors are not necessary when looking at higher amplitude output voltages. It depends on the number of primary/secondary turns affecting the switching currents and hence the current handling capacity through the CE junction of the device, plus the base current required to turn it on. This is the majority of your draw current. Incidental I have an old analogue milli_amp meter I use in series with the source battery. Regards M

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on January 08, 2010, 03:05:13 AM

@ Bill

High Bill, We are experiencing the worst weather conditions in the UK for well over 30 years
Deep snow in many regions with temperatures of -17 C. Satellite Pic's show GB white over. M

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 08, 2010, 08:34:59 PM

question
i just torn down a rockford fosgate amp
and ripped the toroid in it out
with 9 turns on the secondary i get 60 volts dc
the collector has 5 turns and the base has 3 turns
and the transistor gets very hot hot hot
mpsao6 i have got 10 volts bemf on collector
" what am i doing wrong.." do i need more turns on the collector windings
reducing the turns still gets it hot
it will run with one turn on base but still gets hot

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 08, 2010, 08:41:10 PM

Hi kooler,
I would raise the base resistor to a higher value first.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 08, 2010, 10:05:53 PM

jeanna thanks
i just put a bigger 1/2 watt pot on it and it fix it
what i was telling you yesterday was on a secondary wind one wire ex. 20 turns right handed
then wind a second wire 20 turns left handed and connect the end of the 1st wire back to the start of the 2nd wire..... and check the leads with a scope.. haha .. there both putting out negative pulses.
these two wires are kind of bifilar but wound in a different directions

oh this toroid becomes silent once i hit highest voltage.. weird

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 08, 2010, 10:13:53 PM

Kooler:

So does mine. (Based on the Jeanna Light circuit)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 08, 2010, 10:25:51 PM

o bill please do not delete my post

I HAVE A HUGE THING TO SHARE ....

I LEFT MY UNIT OFF ... THE 12 V GEL ... JUST WENT INTO SELF OSCOCLATION ... WOW OMG!

W

I MADE A VIDEO MR MAGS ... YOU WILL APRECIATE IT ! AGIN IM DEEPLY SORRY !

I WISH I WOULD HAVE REVIEWED MY PMS LOL EARLYER ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 08, 2010, 10:42:56 PM

bill
you think it is a permeability issue
that it get quieter the high the khz

i just put 34 turns on it and it put out 139 volts dc thru a bridge (dmm)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 08, 2010, 10:45:44 PM

Quote from: kooler on January 08, 2010, 10:05:53 PM
jeanna thanks
i just put a bigger 1/2 watt pot on it and it fix it
...
oh this toroid becomes silent once i hit highest voltage.. weird

Good.

It got too high frequency for your human ears to hear.
EDIT: or low... the volts going up on a jt means the frequency is going down, so then it isn't too much of a scream.
end edit.
It happens a lot! ;D

btw, I tried all the possible ways to make the turns and the only one that worked was the first one, but it was the same output as a straight solenoid. Except the wave was much nicer.
Thing is, I do not know if a lightbulb cares. It seems not.

Keep at it.
I know you will,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 08, 2010, 10:55:41 PM

the way i told you it show a low volt on a meter but the scope shows a high spike
i just thought it was kool it put out negative pulses on both ends on the secondary..lol

do you have any ideals what we or i can do with static surges
never mind i will look in to it once i get back to the fox hole

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 08, 2010, 11:00:07 PM

here is the video i just made

this is decitated to the work of those b4 me !

william!

thank you mr magg with out the argument we had .... i would have likely not discovered it !

agin i thank you ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBvZHgOuZ9s

well i can not explain ...

i can read ac on 1 meter 23 vac ... oscolation on the other .....

it has me questioning if my meters are goofed as i have never had a gel do this yet ....

caps for years i have done this ... never a battery ...

i tryed to scope it with out being able to ...

odd!

i dont know i tryed all my meters ... and all give diffrent results ...

i shared it ... for now i will not use it ! i have other things i must finish ... as it is just about to get really intresting!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 09, 2010, 12:04:12 AM

Quote from: kooler on January 08, 2010, 10:55:41 PM
the way i told you it show a low volt on a meter but the scope shows a high spike
i just thought it was kool it put out negative pulses on both ends on the secondary..lol

do you have any ideals what we or i can do with static surges
never mind i will look in to it once i get back to the fox hole

I also like when the spikes go both ways.
I did not see the spikes nor did my scope.
My scope is limited to 10MHz, so maybe these are sooo thin my scope doesn't pick them up??

This however doesn't matter to a light bulb afaik.

Foxhole?
Yeah, let us know!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 09, 2010, 08:00:34 AM

808 baby!

open your mind!

: ) check out the 808 sample right at the start of the song...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lMXycNsqu0

ist!

808 the RA STATE! ANTI GRAVITY LIFT! ; ) LOOK THE DESIGN ... : )

PEACE!

j watch the NEXT one ....

SEE MY TIME TUNNEL? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TW8P3EHngc&feature=related

3AM I MUST BE LONELY... ; )

ROB TOMAS ... SOME ONE I LOOK UP TO!

A WONDERFUL SONG!

FOR MOM CUZ I LOVE HER!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k19v66zb0Q

BRIGHT LIGHTS ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvk9dJZVd2g

JUST ANOTHER ALIEN ON BRODWAY!

BABY BABY BABY COME ON HOME!

SUNDAYS ON THE FONE TO MONDAY ... TUESDAY IS ON THE FONE TO ME!

THE SUN COMES OUT AND DRYS UP ALL THE RAIN!

RA! : )

NOW HOW KOOL IS Q ? LOL

4 TIME KOOL!

: )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOLcptZ3WvU

LOOKIE THIS ONE LOL : )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQ0SroOZKCA

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 09, 2010, 10:15:29 AM

WERE GONNA SHOOT IT WHERE EVER THE CAR RUNS OUT OF GAS!

: )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvZIb24J0C4

W

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 10, 2010, 04:50:00 AM

@all

I made a toilet paper roll jt with working secondary , no magnetic core ...

I will charge some battery up to post some picture, tomorrow.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 10, 2010, 04:53:36 AM

Mark:

This is an air core then? This should be interesting.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 10, 2010, 04:59:13 AM

@bill

Yes air core , air and :o the secondary works , at what seems to be low freq.

This my version of the new coil you know ... It worked on the first try , i can't believe it .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tysb3 on January 10, 2010, 08:31:32 AM

@ Mk1
tesla kacer:
http://www.youtube.com/user/FreeEnergyInfo#p/u/33/OrfolD18t68
http://www.youtube.com/user/FreeEnergyInfo#p/u/68/Ocb7Jr2e4KA

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 10, 2010, 09:50:28 AM

well this should not be a hard task

MK..

equal mass ... and the right place ... depends how you have it couppled ...

and the size you made it ... if it is low freq i would expect it to be larger ..

if you can get it right .. they will show up!

i have done this!

unfourtunatally ... if you have nabours ... ther gonna hate you.. and if there kids round ...

BETTER NOT TRY IT !!

i made standing waves ELECTROFYED..

AT SOME DISTANCE!!!!!!

from a d battery .. i used a 4" ring air core ...

but if you get your core to radiate lol

you wont have to worrie so much of tuneing it ....

ist!

those my seeins ..

we all know what can be done with a changeing magnetic feild ...

right!

its kinda like a freeway in the coil and your outlets are the overpasses ... : )

basically thease are my eather spinners ...

SO BE CAREFULL ... hate to see you get sucked in .... one ... ; )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 10, 2010, 12:28:12 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 10, 2010, 04:50:00 AM
@all

I made a toilet paper roll jt with working secondary , no magnetic core ...

I will charge some battery up to post some picture, tomorrow.

Mark

:) See the boys over at the TPU prize thread just threw that idea out the window . If he actually did make his tpu burn up Fets and produce HV with one frequency then it makes perfect sence to me that a jt could do it .
Mark i take it that you put more turns on it than i did correct? That is good news for sure cause every one has one of those ! Except mabe some arabs ;)

William , I hope your are not mad at me because i never was at you . Let me say that Tim and i have your package on the way monday and i still gave you some solar cells as a gift . I can understand where you were and just know there are ups and downs for all of us . Do not let it get the best of you . As a friend told me here Don't vent out your anger as it will eat you up and turn on you in the end . Be good, ,kind , and i forgive you for the Pm's . I hope things work out for you this year and you get a Great Job or make some money with your ideas .
Friends ?

Albert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 10, 2010, 01:41:49 PM

mk1....
the aircoil jt i made..
it had a 2 turn secondary and showed 2 volts but it would charge a cap to 80 volts

i got away from aircoil cause the more you put in it the more it made my head hurt..lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 10, 2010, 03:20:18 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRfnhQtsPVE

REGARDS!

CHRIST

SEE H RA IST........

I LOVE YOU ALL!

OF COURSE IM NOT MAD AT YOU !

SUN!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 10, 2010, 03:45:55 PM

OMG ! Can you believe they now have a 50watt and 100 watt led !!100W high power LED
Beam angle: 110 degrees
Forward current: 3500mA
Forward voltage: 32-36V
Luminous: 6000-7000LM
LED colors: White
Color temperature: 6, 000 to 7, 000K

Application:

This module is used in light, street light, especially low voltage light(such as solar lighting, lead acid battery ), whose? advantage is safe and low voltage.
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-HIGH-POWER-100W-LED-BOARD-7000LM-110Deg-DIY_W0QQitemZ390132088912QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item5ad5af4050
You can buy it now on ebay for $125.00 us for this one 100Watt led
good grief !

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 10, 2010, 03:57:39 PM

Cheap... at 1/10th the price!
:D
;D,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 10, 2010, 04:26:02 PM

i have set my last video to PRIVATE ...

HERE IS THE URL///

25 views!

thats it!

ist!

http://www.youtube.com/watch_private?v=CRfnhQtsPVE&sharing_token=Icj3fO8WKORjn8PkO7O9AQ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 10, 2010, 06:18:00 PM

ok guys

NOW I LAY MY CLAIM TO FAME ...

and it aint the JT LOL

i have invented the H 0 H WICH USES THE 808.... I MADE A VIDEO ! TO DOCUMENT IT !

I MADE THIS POST TO CONFIRM MY WORK ...

THIS IS MORE THAN A DREAM TO YOU AND ME BABY!

first the flick .... then the kick then the rize ...THEN the the H .. ; ) ALL WITH 1 FREQ!

THANK YOU

ANY QUESTIONS PM ME ...

the TESLA KICK FLICKIN RESONANT RIZE ... TO HETERODYNE!

AS I SAID I HAVE VIDEOED IT!

I

KNOW HOW MY TOYS WORK ...

: )

PEACE!

H

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 10, 2010, 06:42:04 PM

Very nice, IST,

Thank you for all the trouble you went through to do this.
I have left it on buffer for now so I can watch it a bunch more times so I will leave a comment later, but I do not want to use up the 25 slots.

The backwards diodes ought to be easy for me. I never put them in right the first time anyway!

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 10, 2010, 07:03:23 PM

@ ist

Your URL does not work. It just brings up a message saying the video is private.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 10, 2010, 07:26:11 PM

Quote from: jeanna on January 10, 2010, 06:42:04 PM
Very nice, IST,

The backwards diodes ought to be easy for me. I never put them in right the first time anyway!

thanks,

jeanna

: )

I MIGHT add i know all bout it .... lol

i cant even read numbers right ... lol let alone that tiny black stripe ...

lol

im compileing 2 more videos ... 1 is a summary no words ... of the NPN MAG!C MAKER .. in off mode ...

second basic H ~HOH 808~

~~ THIS IS MY WORK~~

I WAS A DJ MANY MANY YEARS ... and for good reason ...

: )

W

BTW the H0H 808 is HYBRID AUDIO / ELECTROMAG!C MACHINE!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 10, 2010, 09:02:43 PM

HERE IS THE H 0 H INTERNATIONAL

I WILL NOT RELEASE MORE INFO ON THIS UNIT!

IM SORRY! I CAN NOT!

W

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xl0XhKuSV0

some will understand some wont ..

agin i LOCKED MY VIDEO!

25 VIEWS

and i will add the pass key ... KOOLER BRO ... YOU MUST CUT AND PASTE PASSKEY!

http://www.youtube.com/watch_private?v=9xl0XhKuSV0&sharing_token=Z2lhbeczxvr374-_BMq08g

and here is a OLD BUT A VERRY GOOD SONG ...

IN 1814 we took a little trip! ....... : )

J AND H

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxB42cjHTGg

FIRED ONCE MORE THEY BEGAN TO RUNNING........ ; )

we fired our cannon till the barrel melted down .. SO.....
WE GRABBED AN ALI-GATOR AND FOUGHT ANOTHER ROUND!

WHEN WE TOUCHED THE POWDER OFF THE GATOR LOST HIS MIND..... : )

THEY RAN SOOOOOOOOOOO FASSSSSSSSTTTTTTTT THAT THE HOUNDS COULDNT CATCH THEM !

HI YA GATOR! LOVE YA BABY! PS when ALI was a baby i called her ali - gator .....

PEACE!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 10, 2010, 09:18:36 PM

ist
some reason i can't get thru on the last videos
you didn't cut me off did you. . . ? ? ?
lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 10, 2010, 09:24:01 PM

@all
The toilet paper unit (tpu)

The pictures i promised , so this is a prototype , some say it should be at a 45 degree angle , lets find out ...

So the jt is the blue and white wire , 4 turns secondary , with out diode the led lights one way , with the bridge 1n4007 5 volts out .

The jt coil goes around 3 times , not unlike the rodin coil for not 18 turns , that is the longest wire i had.

I did not try tuning it it worked form the start 300 ohms pot.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 10, 2010, 09:28:14 PM

if you refer to me mk ...

my 45 deg unit is much diffrent ....

and i will pull it out of my hat too to show you

sir

it is teslas TRUE TPU! THE ONE I MADE ANYHOW ....

W

MK1 BRO .. VERRY NICE NOT AT ALL WHAT I EXPECTED ...

congrats!

i try it inside the jt ...... ; )

mk1 whats the deal with the broken guitar! i better find you some glue for that dude!

i have huge cardboard tubes ... some up to 2' across

i was thinking i should get on those tooo verry soon ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 10, 2010, 10:33:36 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gj7IFCXw9Q (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gj7IFCXw9Q)

Joule thief secondary powers 3 LoA 20 led bulbs in the manner described in the hairpin circuit.
:D,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 10, 2010, 10:37:20 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on January 10, 2010, 12:28:12 PM
:) See the boys over at the TPU prize thread just threw that idea out the window . If he actually did make his tpu burn up Fets and produce HV with one frequency then it makes perfect sence to me that a jt could do it .
Mark i take it that you put more turns on it than i did correct? That is good news for sure cause every one has one of those ! Except mabe some arabs ;)

Gadget

Unlike you i see the jt as a 2 phase unit , with the paper roll , i could make a 2 coils , and put regular jt at the end , so i keep both phase going in one direction on the tp and both on the jt at the end .

Hum , it looks even more like a tup now , ;D

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 10, 2010, 10:43:20 PM

@jeanna

Nice work !

Keep them coming !

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 10, 2010, 10:59:03 PM

OK I AGREE WITH THE NAYSAYERS here.... that im totally nuts..... i fully agree...

lol

ok

this is what is COMEING UP SOON AS I FIND SOME SERIOUS FUNDING ...

the H HOH 808 HHO FUEL CELL JT DRIVEN!

: )

where do you want to go ?

W

YOU REALIZE I HAVE ENOUGH OLD JUNK TO WHIP UP THIS IN A HEART BEAT!

; )

THEN WE CAN GO CARAL KAP... LMFAO ; )

ALL I REALLY NEED TO MAKE THIS YOUR NEW WORLD AND REALITY ... IS 2 4 OHM TRANSFORMERS AND BIG A$$ TUBE RECTIFIERS ....

SOME ONE SAY UFO?!!!! FUEL CELL HHO AND ELECTRICAL OU PUT!

MEGGAWATTA SCALE??

JUST DROP EM OFF IN PEACEFULL COUNTRIES ROUND THE PLANET

WANNA FIGHT WE PULL EM!!! ; )

H

AND GADGET ... ILL EVEN USE YOUR STARTER YOU HAVE DESIGNED ... SO WE CAN RUNN IT ON A WATCH BATTERY ..... FOR 12 MONTHS .... LOL

LOVE YA!

AND TIME FOR A SONG .... AS IT WELL FITS ... WELL 2 ACTUALLY...

THE WHITE STRIPES ... SO WE ARE SO ...

FIRST 7 NATION ARMY!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VutMLnjXTY4

SECOND .... MY DOOR BELL! WHEN YOU GONNA RINGGGGGG IT ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NA4rwWAEXmY

YOU SEE I HAVE THIS KICK A$$ HHO CELL ... IT WILL SCARE THE BANGS OUT YA! I PLAYED IT FOR A WHILE ... LOL IT PUTS OFF MORE PARTS HYDGRON THAN OXY .... BANGY SH!FT I TELL YA!

LOL

I HAVE THIS MAG!C POTION #9 AND IF I USE IT ... I CANT TURN THE SH!FT OFF!!!! LOL

I CAN TURN OFF THE POWER SUPPLY ... BUT HHO JUST POURS OUT STILL FOR A VERRY LONG TIME ......

MAG!C POTION #9

ITS AN AGE OLD FAMILY SECRET ; )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 10, 2010, 11:33:08 PM

i put this video on u-tube but you have to click HQ to veiw it

its a 265000 mcd led 10mm

0.11-0.12 ma's

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiD72OUollc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiD72OUollc)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 10, 2010, 11:52:34 PM

Quote from: kooler on January 10, 2010, 11:33:08 PM
i put this video on u-tube but you have to click HQ to veiw it

its a 265000 mcd led 10mm

0.11-0.12 ma's

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiD72OUollc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiD72OUollc)

I YI YI ....

LOL AWESOME

W

J AND MK I MISSED YOUR WORK B4 I POSTED .... : (

J LOVE HOW YOU ENDED YOUR YOUR VIDEO AND YOUR WORK!

that is 1 kool unit the last dwg

who wants to goto work ..... I THINK THERE IS A CNC MILL ALMOST READY TO GO ....

AND THEY MIGHT JUST BE HIREING ......

; )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on January 11, 2010, 12:08:38 AM

Nice vids everyone; keep up the good work with the circuits. It's always nice to hear a good explanation. If you don't think you have the voice to do it, there are programs which can simulate voice that you can use to narrate - or you can use dialog screen like in the old B&W films.

I was thinking more about the basic circuit, and though I've asked this once before:

Does it matter where the resistor is ( directly to the base or not )?

Technically, the placement resistor at base would allow flyback to go into the other coil, assisting the coil to collector. Does this make sense?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 11, 2010, 12:21:52 AM

Jeanna:

Excellent video!! You always explain things so well. I try to in mine but after like 4 takes...I say it's done and process it. Then I watch it and see all kinds of things I left out.

Where did you get those led grid lights from? I have not seen anything like them around here.

You explained a complicated circuit so that even I could understand it.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 11, 2010, 12:22:28 AM

ill fire first ... KOOLER THIS IS JUST THE PROJECT FOR YOU REPLACE MULTI TAP POINT TO MAGIC TOROIDES ... then TURN COUNT THEM TO TUNE IT ... FOR OU PUT ...

the place ment of the resistor in a inductance system ..

ie high selfinductance high winde count coil .. for 1 it makes the kick and chokes it and forces the kick where you want it to go

so in theory ... you can have 2 coils low and high then you can have MANY OF ANY DESIRE IN BETWEEN AND REDIRRECT THE KICK TO EXIT THROUGH THEM ALL AT ONCE ... THIS is electrical i speak of ..

magnetics it dont care throw wire on it you will get something out of it ..

hope you can understand what im trying to say ...

ITS kinda an inductance kick transformer of many desired voltages ... verry much FORCE FEED!

meaning spark gaps or bridges ... to BLOCK IT ... so it dont flyback and blow up source..

; )

common tap point all multi coils .. common ground

thank you !

H
realy crude text art .... but i tryed

ground here source
h l

tap point multi coils here ............><.............. mirror other side in reverse

l h
source here ground

and this is only half it ...

it gets CRAZY FAST!

caps are prefered as there DISCHARGE RATE is extreamly fast ... lol ; ) and choke cant / wont take it ... so it bounces back ... only a tiny bit makes its way to ground ... the rest flys out as output on the multi coils with the flyback kick ...

like i have only drawen half of it ... common pos... hummmmmmm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 11, 2010, 12:34:27 AM

bill
these have some good reflectors on them

http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G17279 (http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G17279)

http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G17281 (http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G17281)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 11, 2010, 12:55:23 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on January 11, 2010, 12:08:38 AM
I was thinking more about the basic circuit, and though I've asked this once before:

Does it matter where the resistor is ( directly to the base or not )?

Technically, the placement resistor at base would allow flyback to go into the other coil, assisting the coil to collector. Does this make sense?

In the way lidmotor added his rheostat to the basic circuit it changes only the ampsdraw.
There is a fallout from that in that the volt spikes are lower, but unlike putting all the resistance at the base, the frequency seems to change very little if at all, so yes, there is a difference where you put the resistor.

I knew for instance that I needed over 1000 volts for the 3 led bulbs, but I was very concerned that I would pop one whole bulb if it got all 1000 volts, so, I added the resistor in line with the pos battery connection. It is where you would put a switch.

What is on the collector is directly related to the power out of the secondary and the oscillations work as a unit, as far as I can tell. xee2 was the one that figured how one part worked separately from the other.

@Bill,
I get those led lights from wallmart lighting department. They cost just under $6.
As I say in the video they are really equivalent to 25w bulbs, no higher, but that is how I am beginning to view all leds. I am kicking myself for not buying a chinese spotlight that is made with 100 leds facing out in all directions. I think it would be a perfect conversion to a 100w filament bulb, and I KNOW I could make a joule thief secondary to run it. I should just go back and buy 3 of them... maybe I will. ;)

thank you,

jeanna

kooler, I will check out your HD video now.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 11, 2010, 01:46:27 AM

i did my first current limiting reostat tests yesterday ...

aswell

but i used my recharged cellfoners on the stats to LOWER THE FEED! ; )

PROBALLY DO THE SAME ON MY FEED BACK self run mod i showed in my video ...

insted of secondary recharge ... but i must buy somehow some more super caps ...

10f would be perfect there .. run from aa till sys is in sync and online .. then RUN OFF FEED BACK 10F SUPER THROUGH REO.. TO INPUT ... remove battery

BE HOLD MY SELF RUNNER MOST BASIC!

W

IF YOU CAN MAKE 3 turns on a 1" gold mine ... you have done all i just explained...

im so forget full .... you will have higher volt ripple feed back as well follow through with the dc ...

: )

THERES YOUR RESONANT RIZE ... TO H

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 11, 2010, 02:01:37 AM

@ kooler

Quote from: kooler on January 10, 2010, 11:33:08 PM
i put this video on u-tube but you have to click HQ to veiw it

its a 265000 mcd A 10mm

0.11-0.12 ma's

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiD72OUollc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiD72OUollc)

Nice. It should run for years on one battery. Did you use a regular JT or a super JT?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 11, 2010, 04:36:11 AM

@all

I have put now a total of 3 secondary on my tp jt , i get about 1 volt a turn , so i have a 2 , 5 and 45 volts .

I have made this one also it gives 80 volts from 22 turns secondary , output outlined in yellow .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 11, 2010, 07:27:06 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 10, 2010, 10:37:20 PM
Gadget

Unlike you i see the jt as a 2 phase unit , with the paper roll , i could make a 2 coils , and put regular jt at the end , so i keep both phase going in one direction on the tp and both on the jt at the end .

Hum , it looks even more like a tup now , ;D

Mark

yes it is funny . A toliet PU ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 11, 2010, 07:40:26 AM

@gadget

Good morning , i am working on a third one , this time exactly like agentgates,
well i think at 45 degrees , 2x18 , 180 phase , i tried both phase kicking the same direction , only got about 10 volts.

Mark

Edit , those are the picture of the new one , i get 35 volts on a 6 turn secondary , so its getting better and better .

I would never have believed it , all that without toroid , and yes its a air core but it works at the same freq a regular jt dose .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on January 11, 2010, 08:48:16 AM

Hi folks, Hi jeanna, very good work your doing with the joule thief oscillator. I am curious, can you do a side by side comparison on of those multi led bulbs next to an actual incandescent 25 watt bulb and see if it actually puts out the same or close amount of light. If they are equivalent that's great, it would be surprising though. After working more with these self oscillator circuits like the Jt and bedini oscillator i've found that the JT works best at below 12volts, at 12volts or above its hard to keep the transistor from heating for some reason. Though with Bedini's osc. or the 'big boy variant' very little heat at all at 12v-13.8v since that's all i've tried so far. Let me know Jeanna, thanks.
peace love light
Tyson :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 11, 2010, 11:29:34 AM

MY MKC unit

runs .. 12vdc 0 HEAT ... puts out a fair bit ....

you do not want to touch it ... 5k resistor wire wound 8w

has feedback employed magnets and polorized kicker coil ..

AIRCORE ..

: )

ist!

my ist tpu has 6 of thease in 1 ring ... i pulse the supply .. 3 and 3 so it then goes 2 freq ..

plus im pulseing at harmonic resonance ... so i send a ringging pulse into it ...

when i cut it ...a ringggging pulse will return ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 11, 2010, 11:39:34 AM

now about the H0H audio amp ... it uses verry little engery ...

117v 1.1a this is actually the fuse ... the amp is stamped to use .7 a at 117vac 60 c

i can pulse 2 amps ... with my mac relay switch / controller this will induce the 808 kick 2 in oppsite dirrections ..

then im only gonna race it ... lol

i will be doing better video demos of the HOH TODAY

@ MAGS @ BILL @ ALL OTHERS

that thought i destroyed the tube freq genny ... lol its my baby ... i will use it!

with the HOH ..

MAGS ...I know this puts a SMILE on your face....

: )

then we could use it to tune the H H0H 808 HHO UFO FUEL CELL!

SO WE CAN SPLIT WATER .. PROPERLY ...

THIS AMP IS QUITE A FEW WATTS ....

i will be takeing it apart for the H aswell the mags gen!

H

im cleaning up table #2 i will set up the next unit on that table ... and still keep the last unit up and running ...

I HAVE 0000 quite a collection of audio amps tubes and other wize ...

i can probally find 15 or so .... ; )

lol plus i will be hooking up my laptop to monitor both setups with my usb plugg in for my circuit test meter .. i have software that does a few things ... as well i have my 6 freq dubble h bucket i built a few years back ... i used computers .. to fire it .. with sig gennys ..

peace!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 11, 2010, 02:03:10 PM

Lasersaber's Joule Thief in a box video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFpzkyP6DCU&feature=sub

This is a great project.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 11, 2010, 02:24:42 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 11, 2010, 02:03:10 PM
Lasersaber's Joule Thief in a box video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFpzkyP6DCU&feature=sub

This is a great project.

Bill

NICE JOB!

but i like his handle ! lol

lasersaber! kick in!

: )

tree colour! lol

ist!

i have choose to share the jt unit public today ... this video WILL REMAIN PUBLIC!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRfnhQtsPVE

REGARDS!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 11, 2010, 05:02:50 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 11, 2010, 04:36:11 AM
@all

I have put now a total of 3 secondary on my tp jt , i get about 1 volt a turn , so i have a 2 , 5 and 45 volts .

I have made this one also it gives 80 volts from 22 turns secondary , output outlined in yellow .

ok MK1 bro

we are gonna build it !

i have managed to clear off table 2 pull the hoh out ... and the mags genny both are VERRY HIGH Q UALITY tube driven units i will VIDEO IT and share it ....

this is NOT MY HOH 808

this is a TPU!

I WILL GET A RING I WILL BUILD IT LARGE .... i will tune it with the MAGS GEN and power it from the tube amp ... i MUST FIND IMPEADENCE of the AMP FIRST

then i will winde a coil to match it or i will add resistors! to match impeadance ...

then I WANT TO CALL IT THE MK UNIT ..

here is your glue ...

: )

H

I WILL SETUP THE LAPTOP METER.... i will scope it ... i will tune it first ... low volt then drive it with the amp ...

from batteries and an invertor ...

yikes ....

looks like i shall be busy ....

AGIN . there 1000 ways to do this too!

but i like what aporch i have choosen .... ; )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 11, 2010, 05:14:15 PM

this will consume verry little engery ... even pumping kw's ....

if you so desire ... it will be luckey to use 110v 2 amp

all said and done ...

and then even more is said then done ....

W

care to build it mk1?

i will use 8ga thick wire rated 1000v 100a good to -40

FOR MY COLLECTOR ... HOW BIG YOU WANNA MAKE IT ?

i have 16" 18" 24" tubes most likely more sizes ... i cant remember ..

i probally have 200 feet left of that wire ... not sure ...

plus i have a full spool of 12 ga solid .. single strand ... 600v ... 40 amp at least ...

I WILL ROUND UP ALL NEEDED things to build

and i awaite any further ideas sedjuestions advancements you wish to add ...

its the MK BRO! you call the shots! lol

do not FOR GET I have the 1/4 megga watt high volt high freq rectifier ... remember ... i told you all they know where ALL thease have ever been sent ...

: )

PEACE!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 11, 2010, 06:08:44 PM

xee2
it is a regular jt
with a tip 31c
a cap across the resistor
and alot of resistance
it is a 1'' toroid goldmine

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 11, 2010, 06:48:52 PM

Quote from: kooler on January 11, 2010, 06:08:44 PM

it is a regular jt
with a tip 31c
a cap across the resistor
and alot of resistance
it is a 1'' toroid goldmine

Kooler,
What is the value of the cap and the resistance, please, and since the vid is dark, how many turns on base, collector, and any secondary... please?

thank you,

@ all,
eesh I have tried 2 trigger coils so far and I have not been able to get jonnydavro's sec to fire up.
Has anybody had any luck here?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 11, 2010, 07:50:57 PM

@ kooler

Quote from: kooler on January 11, 2010, 06:08:44 PM
xee2
it is a regular jt
with a tip 31c
a cap across the resistor
and A of resistance
it is a 1'' toroid goldmine

I think that is one for the record books. I have gottern down to 0.06 ma with the 3 transistor super JT but it stops working at a higher voltage than a regular JT and requires more parts. I think your regular JT is a better way to get low current performance.

Usually, it is possible to add more LEDs in series without decreasing the brightness of the first LED. Have you tried that yet?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 11, 2010, 08:02:26 PM

jeanna
it is a 472j cap 4.7nf , 4700pf
resisance is 485 k

xee2
i will probably work with it some more in a little while... i need to order me some more 5mm leds
but i am also thinking of getting me some of the led bulbs that jeanna uses

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 11, 2010, 08:07:22 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 11, 2010, 02:24:42 PM

i have choose to share the jt unit public today ... this video WILL REMAIN PUBLIC!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRfnhQtsPVE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRfnhQtsPVE)

REGARDS!

Thank you ist!

----------------

Quotejeanna
it is a 472j cap 4.7nf , 4700pf
resisance is 485 k

thank you kooler.

------
lasersaber,
Wow you used modified LoA bulbs with a fuji circuit!!!!!
great going.

jeanna

PS
Those led bulbs kooler posted appear to be from the same designer as the LoA ones I have used. The 2 caps and 2 resistors and fuse are the same.
24 leds. They must have changed their design or it is a different company.
Good find and about the same price. plus shipping

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 11, 2010, 08:28:32 PM

HEY MK1 you up for a

MINI CONTACT MACHINE?!

I HAVE THE TUBES

got probally enough coils already wound ... for the base and the 3 rings gyro style i can slice the card board tubes into rings and throw em on a axis point ... lol

oooooo the fun has begun!

H

i like my suger with coffee and cream !

and i go intercontanental when i eat french toast! : )

b boys

intergalactic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9bS1dE0ps8

3 MC'S AND 1 DJ ...
WE BE GETTING DOWN WITH NO DELAY! : ) HEHEHE... NUTTER RA! HA HA!

mix master MIC whats with the scratch routine ... ? ..... LOL ; )

ITS all top secret and classified! i grab a hold of the mic and let the WORDS GLIDE!

MIX MASTER MIC WHATS YA GOTTS TO SAY ...

damm THAT DJ #5 MADE MY DAY !

: )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqE3AfWyylM

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 12, 2010, 12:40:08 AM

got it all set up

i took pics and made a video ...

i think the WHOLE WORLD WILL FIND AN INTREST ....

ANYONE UP FOR REALITY LABS! ? camera ON! ACTION ... ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZQQjd4Bp-k

PLAYING WITH THE QUEEN OF HEARTS

SHE FOUND THE 12 05 ; )

ZODIAC BABY!

: )

H

lookie whats on my bench ...

last pic 4 J

LOL!

LAZZY AND THE MOON COMEING UP TONIGHT !

COME ON COW GIRL! BABY GET READY!

IM A TAKE YOU TO A SPECIAL PLACE THAT NO BODAY KNOWS

BILLY THE KID IS CALLING YOU OUT!

we going fishing in the dark ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=us73YQtJ7TQ

it dont matter if we sit forever and the fish dont bite ...

BABY GET READDDDDDY!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 12, 2010, 12:57:38 AM

hey guys
i uploaded a video.. but you tube in busy doing something,, so it not watch able right now
but all it is .. i made a video of my regular jt.. burning one 5mm led ... i know not much to that right....
but it is half to 3/4 bright at a wicked 16 micro amps....
and i done it with a MPS06A transistor and a TIP31C works also.. just as good
but a pn2222 and 2n4401, 3904... do not work in this rig

i'll post the video as soon as u-tube will let me

out

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 12, 2010, 02:01:08 AM

well here it is ,... this is low as i could go

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnMCcTzMKXk&feature=channel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnMCcTzMKXk&feature=channel)

maybe one day i can show you guys and girls something really kool...
but till then ...,..,. take what you can get??!!

out

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 12, 2010, 02:03:06 AM

THE COMPLEATED UNIT I HAVE DESIGNED ..

AND IS HALF PUBLIC NOW ...

and spred about my work tables ..

will be knowen as

the WSPS

WHITE STRIPES POWER SUPPLY.

and it will utialize the best mk coil we all come up with ..

BTW MK1 have you reversed winded over in oppsite dirrection .. so we get the xxx effect! lol yet?

hehehe

thats when it gets fun!

i think i made a mistake earlyer on unknowing and only realized this instant ... duh im gumpin ... lol

sorry mk1~

RA! you wound that coil and that design ...

i need not say more

other than my deepest apolagy !

so many damm things on my mind ...

and Q im sorry AS WELL

santa was upside down ... lamfo

lol

H

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 12, 2010, 02:34:53 AM

Quote from: kooler on January 12, 2010, 02:01:08 AM
well here it is ,... this is low as i could go

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnMCcTzMKXk&feature=channel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnMCcTzMKXk&feature=channel)

maybe one day i can show you guys and girls something really kool...
but till then ...,..,. take what you can get??!!

out

JUST LOVE IT !! KOOLER!

YOU GOT TO BE Q'S KID ! LOL

CAN I CALL IT THE SCROUGE!

WOW!

AN HONOR ..

TO WORK WITH YOU .. !

W

NOW IF WE CAN JUST GET IT BUILT ON A TINY TIM TOROIDE! : ) ) )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 12, 2010, 04:05:16 AM

@ kooler

Quote from: kooler link=topic=6123.msg221636#msg221636 A=1263275858
at a wicked 16 micro A....

:o WOW! 0.016 mA. Is this your circuit? I think we should call it the "kooler runs forever circuit".

EDIT: I tried to replicate this circuit with 10,000 pF and 1.4M and it was working at 0.03 mA (I do not have a 4,700 pf cap)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 12, 2010, 02:18:25 PM

FISHING IN THE DARK

H

REGARDS

WHO WANTS TO PLAY WITH ME! ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quFKg5bg3Wc

i am what it is THAT i say that i am ....
~WILL~I~AM~
ITS UNCLE BUILD!
THATS RIGHT
UNCLE SAM!

AND NO THANKS ILL PASS ON THE GREEN EGGS AND HAM!

: )

; )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: zhak on January 12, 2010, 03:05:10 PM

Good afternoon jeanna, Good afternoon xee2, we your friends from Russia. Excuse for bad English! Help to understand with this circuit, more exact data on details. Resistors and capacitors for shop.? Whether it is possible on small Ferrite toroid Ð½Ð°Ð¼Ð°Ñ,Ð°Ñ,ÑŒ 250 turns in some layers? Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 12, 2010, 03:28:23 PM

Quote from: zhak on January 12, 2010, 03:05:10 PM
Good afternoon jeanna, Good afternoon xee2, we your friends from Russia. Excuse for bad English! Help to understand with this circuit, more exact data on details. Resistors and capacitors for shop.? Whether it is possible on small Ferrite toroid Ð½Ð°Ð¼Ð°Ñ,Ð°Ñ,ÑŒ 250 turns in some layers? Thanks

Hi zhak,
This toroid from the drawing is 86mm in diameter! So, this toroid is very large.
edit: oops he said 2 inches??

It is possible to get good results by using a smaller one.
A small ferrite toroid can give you 172 volts from the secondary, if it is the right permeability and, if you tune it well.
The permeability u must be very high.

Please describe what you have that you are able to use.
Please describe how many volts you do get.
Do you have an oscilloscope?
You cannot use a digital multimeter to find the volts output, because the results are always incorrect.

igoogle is not able to translate Ð½Ð°Ð¼Ð°Ñ,Ð°Ñ,ÑŒ. It says namatat, which is a word I have never seen in english!.

I hope this helps,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on January 12, 2010, 03:32:20 PM

Hi guys today I built a JT with a 7/8" toroid on Xee2 schematic it's about 10T base 80T collector and it's lighting a neon with a 9v battery.
I would like to use this to charge my laptop battery but I'm afraid that I would do harm to my computer. :-\ maybe I should monitor output voltage to it first
Anyone tried this or it's to risky? ???
Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 12, 2010, 03:53:31 PM

Quote from: xee2 on January 12, 2010, 04:05:16 AM
@ kooler

:o WOW! 0.016 mA. Is this your circuit? I think we should call it the "kooler runs forever circuit".

EDIT: I tried to replicate this circuit with 10,000 pF and 1.4M and it was working at 0.03 mA (I do not have a 4,700 pf cap)

Xee2,
Kooler is using a small type transistor.
Did you see my tests from last week?
I made a small attempt to look at the battery use (amps draw) by different circuits and showed to my satisfaction that the TIP31 has a much greater amps draw even when the circuit is totally empty.
Yes, I know the draw goes down when there is something it is driving, but this was to see why I can only get 5 1/4 hours out of a AA no matter what it is lighting, and to say that the transistor makes a big difference in the ampsdraw.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 12, 2010, 03:53:32 PM

@ zhak

Quote from: zhak on January 12, 2010, 03:05:10 PM
Good afternoon jeanna, Good afternoon xee2, we your friends from Russia. Excuse for bad English! Help to understand with this circuit, more exact data on details. Resistors and capacitors for shop.? Whether it is possible on small Ferrite toroid Ð½Ð°Ð¼Ð°Ñ,Ð°Ñ,ÑŒ 250 turns in some layers? Thanks

Any resistor and capacitor with these values should work. I think this was a 1/4 watt resistor and a 10 volt electrolytic 200 uF capacitor and a mica 220 pf capacitor with #26 wire. Table shows current and voltage for different R values in ohms (read table across horizontally). I have gone up to 400 turns on the 2" toroid (using 2 base turns, 30 collector turns and 400 pickup turns would light a fluorescent tube). The type of 2 inch diameter toroid was not known. I recommend using a larger diameter toroid with high permeability.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 12, 2010, 04:00:26 PM

Quote from: guruji on January 12, 2010, 03:32:20 PM
Hi guys today I built a JT with a 7/8" toroid on Xee2 schematic it's about 10T base 80T collector and it's lighting a neon with a 9v battery.
I would like to use this to charge my laptop battery but I'm afraid that I would do harm to my computer. :-\ maybe I should monitor output voltage to it first
Anyone tried this or it's to risky? ???
Thanks

It is pretty risky.

Maybe you should get a battery from the thrift store first and see.
In any case, your battery will most likely be fine, but DO NOT have your computer any where near it when you are doing this OK?

Last year when we were first playing with the HV from the fuji cameras, several of lost our computers or HD's. It could have been coincidence, of course (, but it sure was a coincidence!)

If we don't hear from you for 6 weeks, we will wonder what happened. 8)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 12, 2010, 04:26:30 PM

zhak:

Welcome to our group here. I am sure that your English is better than my Russian. I look forward to seeing your experiments and results. Don't worry about the language barrier, we will get around that the best way we can.

Welcome.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 12, 2010, 04:48:49 PM

i have lap top batteries im digging out i have 12vdc deep cycles .. and 12vdc lawn tractor batteries ...

i will add to my LOW VOLT END we shall test it and see wich performs best!

to drive my invertor to drive my UFO!

THANK YOU !

H

WELCOME TO ALL NEW VIEWERS! AND SPEEKERS ALIKE!

btw i already know it is too heavy to get off the ground! ... but i had to part with my alien caps to square up old debts! but i guess i first had to build it from junk just like last time ...

and prove beond 1 shadow of a doubt public ...

b4 i get the gold to move down the tracks ...

i have done so !

i pulled out 2 deep cycles 2 lawn tractors 2 laptops ... and 1 more amp ... tube of course ...

fender at that! : )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 12, 2010, 06:25:36 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna link=topic=6123.msg221799#msg221799 A=1263329611
Xee2,
Kooler is using a small type transistor.
Did you see my tests from last week?
I made a small attempt to look at the battery use (amps draw) by different circuits and showed to my satisfaction that the TIP31 has a much greater amps draw even when the circuit is totally empty.
Yes, I know the draw goes down when there is something it is driving, but this was to see why I can only get 5 1/4 hours out of a AA no matter what it is lighting, and to say that the transistor makes a big difference in the ampsdraw.

jeanna

Using the MPSA06 instead of the TIP31C droped the current in my replication circuit from about 0.03 mA to about 0.01 mA. So I seem to be getting the same (or better) results as kooler.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 12, 2010, 06:31:01 PM

Good,
-----
Now, would someone please explain if it is OK (not too dangerous) to put a cap somewhere and a resistor and get some warmth out of the end??
How much, and parallel or series?

I burned 5 fingertips after I tried to charge my bcap from touching the 12v leads . I am sure gadget forgot to mention the resistor, but I need to know all the details because I am new to things like this.

Can you explain it, xee2?
or someone??

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 12, 2010, 06:35:22 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 11, 2010, 07:40:26 AM

.... i am working on a third one , this time exactly like agentgates,
well i think at 45 degrees , 2x18 , ...

..., those are the picture of the new one , i get 35 volts on a 6 turn secondary , so its getting better and better .

I would never have believed it , all that without toroid , and yes its a air core but it works at the same freq a regular jt does .

Hi Mark,
I have a freshly emptied roll to try this now.

Is this reall a toilet paper tube?
It looks bigger in your pic.

I will begin anyway, since I am ready.. ;D

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 12, 2010, 06:41:15 PM

@jeanna

Yep it is a toilet paper roll , one big one , the type you find in schools and garage industrial type 3 7/8 (diameter) by 3 1/2.

It seems that the best angle is 45 degrees but i was thinking 15/75 degree .
both work , it also seems the more turn on the jt side gives more output.

And seems to work better with the jt wires with a space between the wire .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 12, 2010, 06:54:07 PM

Quote from: jeanna on January 12, 2010, 06:31:01 PM
Good,
-----
Now, would someone please explain if it is OK (not too dangerous) to put a cap somewhere and a resistor and get some warmth out of the end??
How much, and parallel or series?

I burned 5 fingertips after I tried to charge my bcap from touching the 12v leads . I am sure gadget forgot to mention the resistor, but I need to know all the details because I am new to things like this.

Can you explain it, xee2?
or someone??

jeanna

jeanna i did mention that it smoked My 12 volt power supply and burnt teh wires off it . It will Smoke em and get a regular battery charger HOT. I just got a new Vector smart charger 80 amp . It charges it perfectly with no heat at all in about 10 seconds . I use a Peltier Modules to get long term heat or cold . We are trying to devize an insulated canister to contain the heat in oil therefor producing a continuous heat source in between Charging with the JT ,sort of like a radiator . I will make a video shortly of 6 bcaps in series running a 110 inverter powering a Tv or something from charging with Jts . . Of coarse we need a better faster cap charger but the potential is there to run stuff after they are charged .

Albert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 12, 2010, 07:16:03 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on January 12, 2010, 06:54:07 PM
jeanna i did mention that it smoked My 12 volt power supply and burnt teh wires off it . It will Smoke em and get a regular battery charger HOT. I just got a new Vector smart charger 80 amp . It charges it perfectly with no heat at all in about 10 seconds . I use a Peltier Modules to get long term heat or cold . We are trying to devize an insulated canister to contain the heat in oil therefor producing a continuous heat source in between Charging with the JT ,sort of like a radiator . I will make a video shortly of 6 bcaps in series running a 110 inverter powering a Tv or something from charging with Jts . . Of coarse we need a better faster cap charger but the potential is there to run stuff after they are charged .

Albert

Make a cap charger TV ... :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 12, 2010, 07:21:44 PM

i can fully explain koolers unit .. and xee2 's

how and y

but i have done lots already .......

Q all you need to do is load it !!

if i put my 350 v cap ... to load it ... I WILL BLOW MY SUPERS!! ; )

w

y i have used 35v 17000uf to load it .... and it is not large enough it still over charges my supers ...

with my design ... i can use 1 b cap as input ... 6 as out ... and same thing .... i will blow them if i dont use it fast enough....

MY NEXT STUNT IS TO LOAD IT DOWN WITH BATTERIES AFTER THE CAPS

thank you ...

so it dont blow up .....
this is why i pulled out 6 of em and THEY AINT SMALL BATTERIES .... NOT AT ALL!

SOLAR DEEP CYCLES! 2 OF EM 12VDC !

ALSO I WILL CLOSE THE LOOP ... I HAVE IN MY WORK SHOP ALL THAT IS NEEDED FOR FLAWLESS RUN !

PEACE!

i have seen my first load cap go over 26vdc ... there is where the deeps will go ...

other load cap hit 15vdc ... tractor there.... gel gets stepped down .... to self run via adaptor ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 12, 2010, 07:26:15 PM

hello
here is a small pic of last nite's circuit

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 12, 2010, 08:11:09 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 12, 2010, 07:16:03 PM
Make a cap charger TV ... :D

YOU ARE NUTS TOO BRO!

LOVE IT ....

NEO ZAP ...?

; )

w

look at my MAG!C MAKER! AS THE CENTER PEICE ... in the 0X0 that is an 8 WMM is the connector!

a long time ago now i was able to start my cap charger from the swipe of a magnet alone ....

and after that simply by placement !

this is the thing that that makes a mess ....

WARNING!!!!

mib alert! ; ) no joke .... they are crazy toys if not under stood and improperly built!

it is best to use a feroite core ... for neo ringgggggggg zap pulseing ...

but im going on to AG .... so i need air core ... or steel core ... and over blast it ... but then there is a heat problem ....

so for now electrical unit !! till i work out the buggs ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 12, 2010, 08:36:54 PM

Quote from: kooler on January 12, 2010, 07:26:15 PM
hello
here is a small pic of last nite's circuit

Hey Kooler as a Neighbor can you tell me how you make those pretty pictorial schematics ? It's looks like it took a long time to do . IO like em . And one day this coming summer when Me and My daughter head to Ashboro for our vacation to the Zoo up there i would love to meet up with ya and buy you some lunch or something and chat a bit .

Albert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 12, 2010, 08:38:42 PM

Mark at the rate we are all going we will be using toilet paper powered Tv's :)

gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 12, 2010, 08:40:33 PM

we all will meet!

cuz im bringing holly wood to each and everyone of you!

cuz i love you all!

H

LIGHTS CAMERA ACTION!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 12, 2010, 10:24:19 PM

gadget
sounds kool man....
the schematic stuff. is just ms paint and a bunch of pic's i got thru google images that i stored in a folder ..
it took me about 5-6 mins to fab the diagram above out this evening

i use tinycad most cases but i like the look of 3D.. you know

out

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 12, 2010, 10:46:27 PM

Hi kooler

I like your new circuit. It will light at least 3 LEDs in series (the most I have tried). I have been using 2M base resistor and 0.01 uF cap. MSPA06 seems to be best transistor to use. Thanks for posting this. I am surprised jeanna has not tried it, she is always trying to make things run longer and this will run for a very long time. I am not sure exactly how much current I am using; different meters and different scales on the same meter will give different readings. But, it is very low.

Also, you probably noticed this, if the cap is made large enough the LED blinks. I had this effect with a similar circuit before but was unable to repeat it. With this circuit it seems to be repeatable.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 12, 2010, 10:48:53 PM

Two waves approach it other at the speed of light. They will never ever be able to go faster than the speed of light.
The space between the two waves though will be altered faster than the speed of light. When the two waves collide they collide faster than any electromagnetic waves bound by the speed of light can get the news of the collision out to the surrounding field. So the field itself caves in. Stuff starts rolling in instead of firing out. What goes up must come down spinning wheels go round and round .....ride the painted pony let the spinning wheel fly.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on January 13, 2010, 12:41:15 AM

It would be great to see more designs posted of these TP powered windings.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 13, 2010, 01:20:07 AM

the cap tv ... kinda reminds me of the HEAT TO ELECTRICAL FROM A CANDLE LOL .....

it worked on my un modded cfl ... and a fugi ... cant see why you cant buy an INVERTOR AND DO THE SAME LOL

; )

w

sparks ... kinda like some of my older windes .... : )

1 rmf.. 1 lap several laps collector fed to horz collector ... then out!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 13, 2010, 01:20:59 AM

Quote from: xee2 on January 12, 2010, 10:46:27 PM

I like your new circuit. It will light at least 3 A in series (the most I have tried).
.... I am not sure exactly how much current I am using; different meters and different scales on the same meter will give different readings. But, it is very low.

Xee2,
What is 3A?

I think getting the lowest ampsdraw is a great endeavor in general, and since I spent about 8 months in the pursuit of very low amps draw, I am delighted to pass the project on. I learned a lot in the search for the least amps draw.

I do not believe my meters any more.

Xee2,
I am looking for the cap to put across the secondary leads along with the diode sort of the way you do this, and I have a lot of can caps from cfl circuits, but there is also an unknown orange plastic cap that is 1000volts.
I am wondering if this is the kind I want to use to light a filament bulb.
I think 800-1000 volts should be enough to light a filament bulb, but I am not getting this yet.
Can you help?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 13, 2010, 01:58:23 AM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna link=topic=6123.msg221969#msg221969 A=1263363659
Xee2,
What is 3A?

A typo. Should have been "3 LEDs". Thanks for spotting it. It has been corrected.

Quote from: jeanna link=topic=6123.msg221969#msg221969 A=1263363659
I am looking for the cap to put across the secondary leads along with the diode sort of the way you do this, and I have a lot of can caps from cfl circuits, but there is also an unknown orange plastic cap that is 1000volts.
I am wondering if this is the kind I want to use to light a filament bulb.
I think 800-1000 volts should be enough to light a filament bulb, but I am not getting this yet.
Can you help?

The key to lighting the filament bulbs is kooler's neon+scr spark gap substitute. The energy from the JT pickup coil is stored in capacitors over a period of time so that the accumulated energy is many times greater than what is coming out of the pickup coil. To do this the capacitors must be able to handle the output voltage of the pickup coil. As the energy accumulates in the capacitors the voltage across the capacitor increases. When the voltage gets high enough to fire the spark gap (neons+scr) all of the stored up energy is released at once which produces a very large current. This can be very dangerous. To minimize the danger the energy accumulated in the capacitors must be kept small. This is done by using only small values of capacitance. I do not know how to help you do this safely. If you do not understand what you are doing you can seriously hurt yourself. Please do not try this until you can do it safely. This is the same principle that Tesla used to get large sparks from his Tesla coil. This is also the way the flash cameras work. The energy is stored in the big capacitor over a period of time and then released all at once to fire the xenon tube.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 13, 2010, 02:37:15 AM

Well, I got my Joule Thief Pirate Light done, but not the way I wanted it. My second Jeanna Light circuit must have a short somewhere as I could not get it to work. I checked and re-checked everything I could think of. To complete the light I used a modified Fuji circuit I had lying around. It works really well and gives off a lot of light in all directions. Later, when I get a lot of time, I will run a diagnostics on my failed large toroid circuit. I really hope I do not have to remove ALL of those 330 pick-up coil winds, that would really suck.

Anyway, here is the new video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qE0EtXB_RqE

This is so easy to make I hope a lot of folks on youtube replicate it. This is way more light than a whole bunch of leds. This is at least 3 times the light output of my Jeanna Light replication. I wonder how much brighter this would be with the 1,200 volts or so of my large toroid circuit once I get it fixed?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 13, 2010, 10:32:55 AM

@All
For those of you who are wondering if there is an easier way to wind torroids with many turn and how to do it without stretching out 100 feet of wire have a look .
You can make one any size to fit threw your toroid with a flat hard piece of plastic . this one is about 3 inches long and 3/4 inches wide . Just cut some V's on each end and then wrap your spool wire on it and it will easily pass thru a toroid without having to pull many feet of wire thru and end up with tangles and such . These are great tools for a Jt experimenter and can be cut to any size for many windings n a toroid . this is 100 feet this little toroid winding tool .
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 13, 2010, 10:53:50 AM

Quote from: xee2 on January 13, 2010, 01:58:23 AM
@ jeanna

A typo. Should have been "3 LEDs". Thanks for spotting it. It has been corrected.

The key to lighting the filament bulbs is kooler's neon+scr spark gap substitute. The energy from the JT pickup coil is stored in capacitors over a period of time so that the accumulated energy is many times greater than what is coming out of the pickup coil. To do this the capacitors must be able to handle the output voltage of the pickup coil. As the energy accumulates in the capacitors the voltage across the capacitor increases. When the voltage gets high enough to fire the spark gap (neons+scr) all of the stored up energy is released at once which produces a very large current. This can be very dangerous. To minimize the danger the energy accumulated in the capacitors must be kept small. This is done by using only small values of capacitance. I do not know how to help you do this safely. If you do not understand what you are doing you can seriously hurt yourself. Please do not try this until you can do it safely. This is the same principle that Tesla used to get large sparks from his Tesla coil. This is also the way the flash cameras work. The energy is stored in the big capacitor over a period of time and then released all at once to fire the xenon tube.

i fully agree ...

and xee2...

i owe you too!

as i never gave you near as much as you have erned!

dont worrie ... ill build you a GIFT TOO!

BUT YOURS .. needs more work ... as your no fool!

: )

an HONER to work with you ... sir/mam! ist is unsure ... ;)

w

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 13, 2010, 11:02:12 AM

im pulling in tubes today ... 1 of each size i have ...

soon im gonna wind ...

i have over 1500' of speeker wire ... AKA LAMP CORD! : ) BABY!

I WILL CUT THE TUBES ... IF I GO HETERODYNE .... 1 WIRE WILL DO .... IF I GO JT BIFILLAR AS MK1 HAS ...... speeker wire ... will do IF I THEN GO SPARKS .... lol speeker wire will work ... and it has the wire between the spaces aswell it is tuned primary to picup ... then only needs collector tuned to mass

makes the thing easy to build and mass tune ....

first ill go mk1 STYLE!

i have enough wire and tubes .... TO PERFECT IT !

I CAN BUILD AT LEAST 100 DIFFRENT RINGS ... with the materials on HAND !

WITH EASE ....

H

SMALLEST IS 18 " UP TO 30 INCH OR SO.......... OVER 3 FEET HIGH IF I SO CHOOSE.....

@ BILL love the vid! espically your magic placement!

: )

well pulled in the next tube .. its 24" across ... should work out well !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 13, 2010, 11:36:00 AM

bill do you find the magnets to have any effect on the battery
?

polarity aligned or otherwize?

im intrested to hear all you have to say!

w

I NEED SOME OF MY WORK GONE !!!!!!!!! I CANT EVEN WALK IN THE DAMM SHOP

I TRIP OVER CRAP HALF THIS WORLD WONT UNDERSTAND TILL ITS LONG GONE!!!!!!

AND IT IS ALL BASIC!

DUH!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 13, 2010, 02:10:44 PM

IST:

Thanks. So far I have not noticed any positive or negative effects from the magnets connecting to my battery terminals or holding the battery itself. Over time, they may well be a good or bad effect. I guess we will have to see.

I had my light on for over 4 hours last night while I was reading. I really like this.

Thank you,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: zhak on January 13, 2010, 02:15:15 PM

All greetings, here my first acquaintance with Joule Thief, I did not begin to feed it with the battery 0.3V, and have poured in bank of water and have added 2 spoons small salts (or soda), and have omitted two wires copper and aluminium (or zinc), at first Ð´Ð¾Ð²Ð°Ð»Ð° is not enough bank volt, after days shone longer and more!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 13, 2010, 02:22:24 PM

Quote from: zhak on January 13, 2010, 02:15:15 PM
All greetings, here my first acquaintance with Joule Thief, I did not begin to feed it with the battery 0.3V, and have poured in bank of water and have added 2 spoons small salts (or soda), and have omitted two wires copper and aluminium (or zinc), at first Ð´Ð¾Ð²Ð°Ð»Ð° is not enough bank volt, after days shone longer and more!

please share more!

wonderful job!

you have done !

W

i know but its your work

PLEASE SHINE WITH US!

EVERYONE!

soon enough we shall play with a FULL DECK! ; )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: zhak on January 13, 2010, 02:27:36 PM

And I will do now more powerfully, for a luminescent lamp, Ferrite toroid small but 240 t , I have wound in some layers how you think it can affect operation?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: zhak on January 13, 2010, 02:29:10 PM

Here ready Ferrite toroid

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: zhak on January 13, 2010, 02:34:44 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 13, 2010, 02:22:24 PM
please share more!

wonderful job!

you have done !

W

i know but its your work

PLEASE SHINE WITH US!

EVERYONE!

I will not understand your speech I badly I speak on English
In advance excuse

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 13, 2010, 02:43:05 PM

please type your native tounge...

someone can translate! or we can use google translaters ...

W

i think you do a fine job at english! S!R

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 13, 2010, 03:03:38 PM

the first LARGE cardboard tpu i will winde

here is a pic

and the mesurements 9/16" thick 5.5" tall 18" across

i will do the first with speeker wire ...

cuz it is much easyer to work with ...

ill fire it pnp magic maker !

H

and just a full ring for collector ... non tuned to see the results...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 13, 2010, 04:16:53 PM

Quote from: xee2 on January 13, 2010, 01:58:23 AM
@ jeanna

A typo. Should have been "3 LEDs". Thanks for spotting it. It has been corrected.

;D oic.
Thanks!

QuoteThe key to lighting the filament bulbs is kooler's neon+scr spark gap substitute. The energy from the JT pickup coil is stored in capacitors over a period of time so that the accumulated energy is many times greater than what is coming out of the pickup coil. To do this the capacitors must be able to handle the output voltage of the pickup coil. As the energy accumulates in the capacitors the voltage across the capacitor increases. When the voltage gets high enough to fire the spark gap (neons+scr) all of the stored up energy is released at once which produces a very large current. This can be very dangerous. To minimize the danger the energy accumulated in the capacitors must be kept small. This is done by using only small values of capacitance. I do not know how to help you do this safely. If you do not understand what you are doing you can seriously hurt yourself. Please do not try this until you can do it safely. This is the same principle that Tesla used to get large sparks from his Tesla coil. This is also the way the flash cameras work. The energy is stored in the big capacitor over a period of time and then released all at once to fire the xenon tube.

This is a wonderful explanation.
[I am not using the ig coil.
I bought a couple of scr's but not the same kind as kooler's. and I have not tried them.]

I have 2 candidate circuits for this: a 1000v secondary and a 2000v secondary.
The cfls I took apart have in them a 1000v cap.
I am assuming that a few diodes as the scr set up is enough to sequester the 1000 v into the cap for long enough to run over into a resistor.
This should provide some heat, because this is a way they are commercially designed. When they go on they are cold and dark, until they begin to warm up.

I just do not know the way to make this happen.
I want it to temporarily collect the 1000v then pass it along to the cfl such that the cfl lights AND there is some heat. It is because the cfl stays bone chilling cold, that it is not as bright as the same cfl from the wall.
I have not been able to get the unmodified cfl to go on even with 2000 spiky volts, even though I saw sparks hitting the screw base of the bulb.
A cap might help with that too, but again, how?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 13, 2010, 04:23:20 PM

Quote from: zhak on January 13, 2010, 02:15:15 PM
All greetings, here my first acquaintance with Joule Thief, I did not begin to feed it with the battery 0.3V, and have poured in bank of water and have added 2 spoons small salts (or soda), and have omitted two wires copper and aluminium (or zinc), at first Ð´Ð¾Ð²Ð°Ð»Ð° is not enough bank volt, after days shone longer and more!

I love your battery!
How did it get better? Mine always get dimmer as the plates get corroded!

Your joule thief circuits look good too.
I am happily waiting to see how the 240T secondary works.
It should work well too.

Excellent,
Thank you for showing these results with us.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 13, 2010, 04:29:27 PM

@ J

i used a cam flash unit ... and a cap a bridge rectifier then a diode off

THE AC CAP...

it filled the caps ... in the cfl then when full it pulsed! the bulb

bright as pluged in the wall...

so if you had a few cam units ... i see no reason they wont RUN A TV!

lol

: )

H

i have my 18" all most wound up lol

i had to do laps on jt as the wires would not lay as i wanted ... so i went with it .... lol

7 turn 5 lap so far 45 deg... 16 ga

collector is 14 ga 16 turn bifillar

looks totally koolerizationable! : )

you know when i was young we were involved with shipping some rare harley davidisons to germany i have pictures sitting on each and everyone!

my fave ... was the rare dirt track racer! only 1000 ever made ...

im willing to bet!

some that read this site own the bikes I SPEAK OF ......
one could say i blessed a few bikes ....

ask where your bike came from ....

HANOVER?

sure i have a few pics ...

and the friend that speakes fluent 5 languages ... almost 80 years of age now and still sharp as a whip!!

i know you guys know him !

: )

MUCH RESPECT!

MR. C. FREY!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 13, 2010, 04:42:43 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 13, 2010, 02:37:15 AM

This is at least 3 times the light output of my Jeanna Light replication. I wonder how much brighter this would be with the 1,200 volts or so of my large toroid circuit once I get it fixed?

Very nice video. I love the mirror!

Bill, Are you not able to use this bulb in your jeanna's light?
Oh, maybe you soldered everything in place and cannot substitute right now.

Please stick a led at the C-E spot to see if the transistor is turning on at all.

Then once you know it is on and oscillating, then put the camera on it and turn off all the lights.
Maybe the camera will be able to see the sparks if your eyes cannot.
I am curious.
I have had this happen in the beginning. I am sorry to hear it has happened with the newby wire.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 13, 2010, 04:53:20 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 13, 2010, 04:29:27 PM
@ J

i used a cam flash unit ... and a cap a bridge rectifier then a diode off

THE AC CAP...

it filled the caps ... in the cfl then when full it pulsed! the bulb

Thanks ist,
Did it WARM the bulb?
I am thinking a resistor needs to be there too so there is the warmth.

There is a lot of excess voltage which can easily be shown by the number of extra tvs you can add ;), but we throw it away and never even realize it was there.
I want to use up some of what radiates out, and make warmth for the bulb so it gets brighter.

The commercial cfl bulbs have what is needed, and possibly it could be done by getting the secondary to attach to some part of the insides of the bulb.

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 13, 2010, 04:55:17 PM

Jeanna:

Thanks, I tired you C-E led trick with the first transistor...no light. That's one of the reasons I replaced the transistor. # 2 does not light the led either and both transistors get really hot in like 3 seconds.

Yes, you are correct that I have everything hot glued and soldered in my Jeanna Light box and do not want to disturb it for a test light of the tube.

I will figure it out...hopefully. Unless I am into a bad batch of TIP3055s? The first one from this group worked great.

Very confusing but, I am sure the fault lies with me.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 13, 2010, 05:31:09 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 13, 2010, 04:55:17 PM
Jeanna:

Thanks, I tired you C-E led trick with the first transistor...no light. That's one of the reasons I replaced the transistor. # 2 does not light the led either and both transistors get really hot in like 3 seconds.

This could mean the transistor is not turning OFF.
So,
raise the resistor really high, and watch the C-E light as you go. This will tell you when/if the transistor is going on.
It is possible that there is a short, and there is also the possibility that there is a spark inside the pot. If there is any small space between the wiper and the carbon, and you Do get a big single backspike, this could be making a short instead of a stream of sparks.
Of course the toroid wire,
or just a plain old short like a wire bending over too close to anything

QuoteI will figure it out...hopefully. Unless I am into a bad batch of TIP3055s? The first one from this group worked great.

Very confusing but, I am sure the fault lies with me.

The symptoms of too much magnetization on my transistors were that they were very weak, but also,
they would not turn on unless there was almost no base resistance, then when they did go on, the transistors got hot.

They are healing, btw. I moved all magnets out of the room and also moved the metal lamp that I had been using to store them, just in case. Those neos are really strong!

If you have some time,(ha) get one from the shack and try it. Either or any of the TIP 31, TIP3055, even 2N3055 will work if your house is warm enough. ;)

this is good to go over this for all to see. I am positive we are not the only ones who are finding this kind of thing.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 13, 2010, 05:35:33 PM

SPARKS...

MK1

garden wire in between! the 7 turn mags ... ? lol

i may do so ... bet it will help to contain it .. and pull secondary outs from ....

im building ...

probally go 10 laps ... thats 70 turn ...

and what if you short the secondaries ... get a bigger mag feild ?

ist! c

@ J ya!

it lit as it should ... if i was to fill the caps faster ... it would run like in the wall CONSTANT!

J think about a HIGH RESISTANCE DIODE..... and low restance coil then in reverse ...

love you ! : p

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 13, 2010, 06:30:32 PM

jeanna
i will work on my old circuit more soon.. so i can show the uses of it
the only way to do it safe is to (start out small)
small output secondary and a cap three times larger than your output..
and make sure you have a load on the scr at all times

i been trying to make it with less parts.. and be able to build it in a bread board
its to strong of a circuit to not solder it.. it burns my holes in my bread board
and you don't need a ign coil to light small light bulbs
the ign coil is just a testing unit.. cause you can adjust it easier by looking at the spark for matching current and voltage going to the ign coil.. and after you tune it just right.. its time to put what ever you want on the output... just don't put 700 turns on one of those 3.38 toroids and run the output from the unit in to it....
my table is metal and i found a bare spot.. haha

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 13, 2010, 06:31:38 PM

well got it wound ! ended up 7 11 lol

jt

then loggie comes in says uncle build throw the globe in it .... lol

; )

w

plasma globe ... find a few batteries ... lol

i love the children / parents ...

he also says dont forget the escape pod ......

here is a pic ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 13, 2010, 06:39:44 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 13, 2010, 05:35:33 PM
...

@ J ya!

it lit as it should ... if i was to fill the caps faster ... it would run like in the wall CONSTANT!

J think about a HIGH RESISTANCE DIODE..... and low restance coil then in reverse ...

What is a high resistance diode?
And do I use one? or 2?

Which way should the stripe be on the secondary?
Does the cap go across?
Or is this with no cap?

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 13, 2010, 06:49:15 PM

Quote from: kooler on January 13, 2010, 06:30:32 PM
jeanna
i will work on my old circuit more soon.. so i can show the uses of it
the only way to do it safe is to (start out small)

I totally agree.

Quotesmall output secondary and a cap three times larger than your output..

ah excellent!
this is the kind of thing I need!

Quoteand make sure you have a load on the scr at all times

Do you mean a neon? or a cfl?

Quotei been trying to make it with less parts..

yeay!
...

Quoteand you don't need a ign coil to light small light bulbs
the ign coil is just a testing unit.. cause you can adjust it easier by looking at the spark for matching current and voltage going to the ign coil.. and after you tune it just right.. its time to put what ever you want on the output...

So, then I can use something in place of the ig coil but not the scr.??

I got these 2 scr's last week:
6Amp, 600v
15Amp,600v

I always want to do it myself, but like with the fuji ckt, I am willing to use something else first.
I have cam transformers but I also see there are nice transformers in the cfl bases... along with caps...

Quotejust don't put 700 turns on one of those 3.38 toroids and run the output from the unit in to it....
my table is metal and i found a bare spot.. haha

;D ;D
better the metal tabletop than grandma's hand embroidered tablecloth!

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 13, 2010, 06:49:22 PM

why not a matched pair! ?

high and low resistance diodes ....

all i used was cam out .. to a bridge after the cam diode to ac cap then through diode 1 side of cap ... to cfl and back to cap!

ill have to digg it out .... a and make a new video explaining it .... i will do it agin ... not sure if i have any unmodded cfls left or not tho!

w

know why loggie said that ... ? my plasma ball is audio driven! lol

i found wire to try for secondaries ...

alum
iron garden wire .. coated
copper clad mig welding wire
rubber coated flex tie ...
magic twister ... twist tie roll 50'

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 13, 2010, 06:57:01 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 13, 2010, 06:49:22 PM
why not a matched pair! ?

high and low resistance diodes ....

Sorry,
I mean how do I know which kind is a hi resistance or low?
Also how do I recognize an AC cap from another kind?

Quoteall i used was cam out .. to a bridge after the cam diode to ac cap then through diode 1 side of cap ... to cfl and back to cap!

ill have to digg it out .... a and make a new video explaining it .... i will do it agin ... not sure if i have any unmodded cfls left or not tho!

Does this mean you did these steps you just described using an UNmodified cfl??

A video would be great, but please remember to explain how to recognize the parts.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 13, 2010, 07:33:23 PM

an ac cap has 1 of thease on it ...

a wing ....

~ lol

my meter does diodes

crystal diodes are higher resistance thus gives higher voltage ... lower resistance gives lower volts higher ma's

ist

yes un modded right out the pac...

ill make a video when i can find the thing ... i honestly have no idea where the orginal unit is ...

im looking for it tho !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 13, 2010, 07:36:13 PM

So,
I just tried something.
I got a new cfl 10w 40w equivalent, and turned on yesterdays 2.5" toroid which has low winds but gets around 1030v at 2.35khz.
I placed the pos bottom nub of the bulb onto one wire end, and while touching the bulb and the other secondary wire end the bulb went fully on.
un-modified bulb.
The color was creamy white which means it was bright.

Then I touched the secondary end in my hand to the screw (-) part of the bulb and the light went out.
??
It is closing the loop in the secondary circuit and turning it off.

When I was off camera and playing with the hairpin after posting the video, I added a copper wire across the ends and all the lights went out too!

Q?
In our house wires, What would happen electrically if you were to touch the 2 wires together?
Would it cancel itself out?
Is it 2 phase, would it add and blow up?

Anyway this light lit so I am taking baby steps toward lighting it unmodified with a hand wound toroid and a AA.

Any more help?

I will now see about adding a diode to the end of the wire.
Or, should I put it onto a croc lead and clip it to the metal window frame?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 13, 2010, 07:48:52 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 13, 2010, 07:33:23 PM
an ac cap has 1 of these on it ...
a wing ....

......

crystal diodes are higher resistance thus gives higher voltage ... lower resistance gives lower volts higher ma's
...

Are you talking about air conditioning capacitors?
.....
I have some crystal looking diodes on the cfl boards I removed. Would those be the ones?

See, I am thinking the cfl has all I need to make a cfl bright with warmth...
now just to get the parts in order and hook them together...
But, maybe not.

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 13, 2010, 07:50:55 PM

Hi everyone . Well Alex and i have all the stuff together and i am commencing the test in the SSJT thread for the project GM AA powered Heater /cooler light /power source . Groundloop will be running the same setup so we will compare from time to time our results . I am Stoked !! . Mine is running and firing a load off right now so i am getting used to the Programmed settings and varables in volts in and outs . I have some boards for serious replicators so if ya want one come on over to ssjt ..

gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 13, 2010, 07:55:27 PM

@ Pirate88179

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 13, 2010, 04:55:17 PM
Jeanna:

Thanks, I tired you C-E A trick with the first transistor...no light. That's one of the reasons I replaced the transistor. # 2 does not light the led either and both transistors get really hot in like 3 seconds.

Yes, you are correct that I have everything hot glued and soldered in my Jeanna Light box and do not want to disturb it for a test light of the tube.

I will figure it out...hopefully. Unless I am into a bad batch of TIP3055s? The first one from this group worked great.

Very confusing but, I am sure the fault lies with me.

Bill

3055 transistor are hard to damage with 1.5 volts, so I think your transistors are still OK. It seems like you do not have the base resistor wired in correctly.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 13, 2010, 08:04:21 PM

@ jeanna

These bulbs were lit with a 1 uF capacitor charged to 400 volts. This is the flash produced when the bulbs were connected acrss the charged capacitor. I do not think you should try to do this, it is very dangerous. You can use the JT to charge up a small CK05 or CK06 capacitor (I suggest you do not use anything larger than 0.1 uF, large caps charged to hundreds of volts are very dangerous) and then discharging the cap through some low voltage filament bulbs (like the Christmas tree bulbs you almost bought).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Tink on January 13, 2010, 08:10:49 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 13, 2010, 07:33:23 PM
my meter does diodes

crystal diodes are higher resistance thus gives higher voltage ... lower resistance gives lower volts higher ma's

ist

Are you talking about voltage drop or what?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 13, 2010, 08:13:58 PM

Quote from: xee2 on January 13, 2010, 08:04:21 PM
@ jeanna

I do not think you understand what you are doing well enough to be using kooler's circuit safely yet. I suggest that your first step in lighting filament bulbs should be to use a flash camera board (unmodified) and then connect some low voltage filament bulbs (like the Christmas tree bulbs you almost bought) across the large capacitor after it has charged up - being careful not to get shocked in the process. I consider this a dangerous thing for you to do, but not as dangerous as using kooler's circuit.

I was just thinking the beauty of My circuit combined with Koolers . I can supply up to 2.5 volts at 3000 amps disposal and dispersal into his Jt .
Kooler you in ?

here is My filament lite :)
Albert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 13, 2010, 08:21:39 PM

EINSTEIN AL

YOUR NUTS!

love ya!

w

tink

im talking bout how much resistance you can cut back in... in a diode!

give old mother no resistance look out

she will swat you !

lol

why do tube rectifiers work so well .....

must be low resistance ....

how bout super conductive ....

must be super low resistance ...

now can you just ringgg a crystal diode .... ?

alone ...

sure i video ed it already ....

the switch it ... lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 13, 2010, 08:22:07 PM

Quote from: xee2 on January 13, 2010, 08:04:21 PM
@ jeanna

I do not think you understand what you are doing well enough to be using kooler's circuit safely yet. I suggest that your first step in lighting filament bulbs should be to use a flash camera board (unmodified) and then connect some low voltage filament bulbs (like the Christmas tree bulbs you almost bought) across the large capacitor after it has charged up - being careful not to get shocked in the process. I consider this a dangerous thing for you to do, but not as dangerous as using kooler's circuit.

UN-MODIFIED?
I did buy those bulbs after christmas. yeay!

Does the fuji board have an scr??

Really, I am asking if the caps should be parallel or series and if a resistor is put into this should it go parallel or series?
....
I appreciate your caring, unfortunately, out of frustration I might do something stupid like try some things anyway if I don't get an answer to this.

I will try the single diode on the cfl now.
Since the cfl light already went on without any extra cap, this may not be so hard after all.

I do want the filament bulb secret, though. Didn't you vaporize the filaments in yours?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 13, 2010, 08:31:02 PM

guys come on

both of you

j

i only learned by doing hun!

xee say high to my other j 4 me .... : )
; )

w

ok i dugg out the the big RECTIFIER ...

i will meter it ...

1.4 m ohm...

THANK YOU!

this is HIGH FREQ HIGH AMP HIGH VOLTS ...

SO it is designed for sparks ... ok ...

if you want lower freq bigger amp less resistance ...

imagine a 1 ohm rectifier ..... white/lightning/!

that rectifier is a 1/4 meggawatt!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 13, 2010, 08:44:10 PM

OK ist,
But see, I never get anything from a diode. I do not care which way it goes.
Last year mark said I needed a full bridge plus an additional diode on each end... that works. I could do that. That is what I will do if nothing else, but, I am not looking to vaporize the bulbs or myself. but I see this IS possible, and there is an underlying principle that tesla used and is in shreds in our modern system.

If I close the ends of the secondary it all stops.
I could probably make a spark bridge the gap at the end, but then that is what a cap might be able to do.
If I put a cap in parallel at the end (like the fiji cap) nothing happens because it needs to be influenced to go into the cap. enter the resistor... or diode.

When I made my astable multivibrator with 2 transistors etc, each cap had one resistor in parallel.

Maybe that is where the clue is.

Kooler, kapandanze, xee2, have all been able to light filament bulbs. It is close.

the unmodified cfl is highest priority too.

jeanna

edit
xee2,

QuoteThese bulbs were lit with a 1 uF capacitor charged to 400 volts. This is the flash produced when connected to capacitor.

great, and how were they connected to the circuit or are you talking about kooler's circuit?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 13, 2010, 08:57:51 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on January 13, 2010, 08:22:07 PM
UN-MODIFIED?
I did buy those bulbs after A. yeay!

Does the fuji board have an scr??

Really, I am asking if the caps should be parallel or series and if a resistor is put into this should it go parallel or series?
....
I appreciate your caring, unfortunately, out of frustration I might do something stupid like try some things anyway if I don't get an answer to this.

I will try the single diode on the cfl now.
Since the cfl light already went on without any extra cap, this may not be so hard after all.

I do want the filament bulb secret, though. Didn't you vaporize the filaments in yours?

thank you,

jeanna

Please read my updated post. I think the original suggestion was too dangerous.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on January 13, 2010, 09:01:06 PM

I like that orb.

Please continue posting good coils, I like good coils!

And on another note; Those same coils look like those high precision DC motors ( compact DC squirrel cage ).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 13, 2010, 09:10:13 PM

Quote from: xee2 on January 13, 2010, 08:57:51 PM
@ jeanna

Please read my updated post. I think the original suggestion was too dangerous.

xee2,
It is not working at all.
I do not know how to make it accumulate.
If I put a cap across the secondary wires nothing happens.
Sometimes it seems to stop it.

I am sure you know what I mean because you were so pleased when kooler brought forth his circuit.

Have you ever been burned with a fuji camera?
I got stung with those a couple of times.
It was not even as bad as a horse fly bite.
I have been getting occasional little stings with the 1000v secondary as I hold the wires and touch various parts of light bulbs.
I am not too careful, because I have the experience that these secondary ends only sting less than a mosquito bite and they never swell or itch. I say ooo and that is all.

I promise to be careful because of all your cautions, but at the moment there is no accumulation and there is a way, but I do not know it.
scr will probably help, or is a scr necessary? no because the fuji does not use one.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 13, 2010, 09:28:00 PM

j

i used a db107 bridge rectifier ... perhaps your coil is not tuned for your diode .....

i used those big bridges too the mountable ones .... it worked well ... i plunked this on after the cam transformer using the orignal diode ..

then right into an ac 275v cap the yellow ones ... non poiloized ... then i put a diode off of it .. drew pos from that diode ... and neg from the cap ..... and it went

zeeeiiiiiiipppp bang zzzziiiippppp bang lol

for a long time ....

w

used a cheepie c battery!

this is the unit ...

i lit the un modded cfl with

but i un plugged the the microwave board ... this was a while ago... maybe i didnt use a diode ..

i cant remember now ... i only built like 400 things since then ....

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=innovationstation#p/u/31/QwjzaHcUkME
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=innovationstation#p/u/25/bkjN0GTlCRY

now take the bulb away ... and BANG A COIL!

: )

YW

YOU MUST PORTECT THE SOURCE OR YOU BLOW IT UP ....

DIODE AND SPARK GAP ON INPUT .... OF COIL YOUR GONNA BANG
LMAO!!

naughty girl! lol ; )

you can ALSO CAP AT GAP ON INPUT of banger coil ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 13, 2010, 09:54:17 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on January 13, 2010, 09:10:13 PM
I do not know how to make it accumulate.

You need to put a diode in series with the capacitor and do not put anything on the capacitor that will drain the energy before you connect the filament bulbs.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 13, 2010, 10:10:04 PM

what hapins if i bang a MOT SECONDARY..

with this unit ... then rectified the primary ...

i may just have to take a break from the mk unit !

J

: )

w

sounds like a nifty power supply for a mk unit ... simple at that ....

and if put the mot in the ring ... the feild produced from the large ring is drawen to the transformer in the center ...

perhaps a good thing ... maybe your

golden torous ... would do the same ...

; )

dont know never built it ... never tryed your core material ... in that size ..

btw

the big ring i wound is a torous pancake sidways push ... / accelerator ...

i have wound torous pancake squeeze aswell ... / accelerator ...

iron release copper core ... o yea rotating 1 dirrection ....

j

im makeing you a vid ...

a collection of rings and cams ... useing the right cap and diodes ... i found a 2000vdc cap ... yikes .. 1 discharge can and will kill you DEAD! ...

so we wont play that card ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 13, 2010, 10:37:09 PM

Quote from: xee2 on January 13, 2010, 09:54:17 PM
@ jeanna

You need to put a diode in series with the capacitor and do not put anything on the capacitor that will drain the energy before you connect the filament bulbs.

Thank you, xee2

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 13, 2010, 10:48:33 PM

Hey ISt yes take a break you are going to have a PILE of Work ahead of you with all that Stuff your getting a few days :) rest those fingers . Hey you like my toroid winder :) you probable have a better way huh ? .

Free Boards to serious Replicators . I got no takes so i guess my word don't matter too much anymore . the boy who cried Wolf :) Well Alex will tell all Folks . I hope this brings back a little faith in me .
I am building Koolers circuit . I want the one that almost killed him . We can do great things with that one . It is very Dangerous yes but a good technician keeps one hand away at all times , Even if you forget ,tie that extra hand up when the circuit is live ! . We are talking probably 1000's of amps at very high voltages and that can be used in so many ways including recharging the source with Avramenko's plug and some radiant energy that is just plain free around his device ! . love it . and god know what else we can power up with an aa battery !
I am Glad you are ok Kool now pass the buck . I am an experienced raido dude and have played with stuff that it so hot it will burn you and even get your rinds and watch hot just being near them .
gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 13, 2010, 11:12:05 PM

Al:

I would love to have one of those boards and participate in the research.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 13, 2010, 11:12:38 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on January 13, 2010, 08:13:58 PM
I was just thinking the A of My circuit combined with Koolers . I can supply up to 2.5 volts at 3000 amps disposal and dispersal into his Jt .
Kooler you in ?

here is My filament lite :)
Albert

sounds like a go..
but i need to buy me some more boost caps dude.. i only had two..
i blew one and my other will not take a charge now for some reason..
you know i do have a small 70 farad 2.1v cap left i might be able to do something with that..?
let me know if i can help..
i got my 1000v 10amp scr's today.. and sidac's, diacs, and smaller bridges(in size)
the reason for the 1000v scr is i had some impressive results about 960 volts thru a cap

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 13, 2010, 11:21:02 PM

out of room ....

onto table # 3

i hope everyone can keep up ...

then there is 1 table left for later ....

i have room for 3 more tables in this room alone ...

and i gots my round one yet ...

i can play all my toys at once ... lol

w

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: unzapped on January 13, 2010, 11:45:45 PM

@all I have a question for you guys... I have made several thiefs since my mag lite runner... NONE of have nearly the juice the first one has... As a matter of fact none of my subsequent JTs have even been able to fire the mag for more than a few seconds.

I have narrowed this down to the coil.

My first one that ran my maglite for hours from the primary. It was on a non ferrite core (painted) like 3/4". The primary had 11 winds of stranded core wire with plastic insulation... silver colored wires from computer a power supply. 2n2222 and 1 ohm resistor... and that is it. Juiced that 3 watt mag lite. When the power goes down a little... I have to add a magnet to the top of the toroid and it goes bright until the battery drains out. Other wise the light is dim and my toroid squeals. The magnet fixed both issues... and does not seem to effect the tranny, as jeanna suggested.

All of my subsequent coils have been combination's of real ferrite, cat 5 solid core wires, and magnet wire secondaries from the shack. Non of them have the raw power of my original. I even made a cute 1inch Rodin coil... what a pain in the ass but it looks pretty cool. no performance gains though.

I have a theory that the stranded wired primary is what made my initial coil work so well. I have to test more but the flu is upon me. And I need some sleep as I meet with our coil winder dude tomorrow!

In my quest for the perfect coil... I think 11 turns on the primary with stranded core, on a real ferrite ring is best for the primary... This makes me wonder if the secondary would benefit from stranded wires.

Please help me to understand if you know whats going on.

Thanks
Jason

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 13, 2010, 11:53:55 PM

unzapped:

I think from seeing my replications of Jeanna's circuit that you don't want any more than 3 to 4 turns on your base coil. (what you are calling the primary) A lot depends on the transistor...we have seen different tunings needed even when using the "same" transistor. And the permeability of the toroid is very important.

The only reason I went to mag. wire for the pick-up coil (secondary) is because I could never get enough turns of the stranded wire as it is to large in diameter. I use 22 ga. stranded for the base coil and the collector coil and 28 ga. mag wire for the pick-up coil.

Good luck with your meeting and I hope you feel better.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: unzapped on January 14, 2010, 12:01:05 AM

I couldnt even get my last JT to run with less than 11 turns of cat 5... Oh well... the guy tells me he has a TON of ferrite stuff in stock... It will be like a grocery store! He says he has some high perm stuff and that his stuff is military spec it has to be very high tolerance... they do a ton of gov work. So this will be a great starting point... I really hope I can help find consistent "sweet spots" for our different applications this will go along way towards more successful projects and replications. Thanks for the reply and good wishes I am sure I will feel better tomorrow... it seems its a 24 hour thing.

Jason

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 14, 2010, 12:12:50 AM

UZ,
This is an indication of looow permeability too high flux. they are opposite low perm=hi flux
you need 11,000u anyway.
See what he says.

It is disappointing, but it is good for learning the parameters.
I was really lucky at first because everything I touched worked (normal for me but really NOT normal for me in electronics!) I was very encouraged, and only later did I run into expensive duds.

I am glad you did this. Carry on!

jeanna

edit,--- I missed the first post.

Maybe he will appreciate it if you do not go when you are sick.
This will give you a speck of time to wind a few more.
There is no point in going too fast at this point.
Make a few, learn then order 2 dozen, but you don't want to get stuck with them.

Be well,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 14, 2010, 01:05:05 AM

I guess I will try again tomorrow.
I got some sparks at the wire junction with the charged cap, but not enough to turn on the unmodified cfl or the filament bulb.
The funny thing is that with the diode and cap, I was also not getting the cfl to light by touching it as I had easily done before.
OK tomorrow is another day!
I only have 2 high voltage ceramic caps a 105 which is 1uF and a 581 which is 580 picoF and way to small.
I have something I cannot count that is 1000v from a cfl. Maybe I will remove that and try it tomorrow.

fyi:
The safe set up is nice.
I am using that ceramic bulb base which is wired for house current.
I clip the + end of that bulb to the + end of the cap and the reverse, then I can put the battery in.
When It didn't work, I could safely remove and only touch just the one side of the secondary so the cap could charge, observe the spark, but not get zapped.

Too bad it didn't light.
Maybe I should try this in reverse since I always get these things in backwards??

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 14, 2010, 03:02:28 AM

ILL GET YA GOOD! YOU CAN BET YA BY THE TIME I SAY GO YOULL NEVER SAY NO !

S.T.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ne1PqaqRRXs

AND NOW THE VIDEO 4 J

: )

H

I show boards i made some small rings bridges diodes caps ... i found the old cam cap motor thing board ...

ENJOY!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaIJsmFFtkk

JUST HAVENT MET YOU YET!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrLd3t0qVdE

ILL GIVE MORE THAN I GET!!

JUST THE WAY IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN!

GOOD MORNING GOOD NIGHT WHERE EVER YOU MAY BE !

READING THIS FROM PLANET EARTH OR BEOND!

W

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on January 14, 2010, 07:15:54 AM

Quote from: jeanna on January 12, 2010, 04:00:26 PM
It is pretty risky.

Maybe you should get a battery from the A store first and see.
In any case, your battery will most likely be fine, but DO NOT have your computer any where near it when you are doing this OK?

Last year when we were first playing with the HV from the fuji cameras, several of lost our computers or HD's. It could have been coincidence, of course (, but it sure was a coincidence!)

If we don't hear from you for 6 weeks, we will wonder what happened. 8)

jeanna

Thanks Jeanna for response. I have never opened my computer battery. When putting out the battery does one loose data?
Gagdet if you have a board please I would like one.
Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 14, 2010, 07:39:57 AM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on January 14, 2010, 01:05:05 AM
Maybe I should try this in reverse since I always get these things in backwards??

Try reversing diode. Your caps are probably too small, but large caps are dangerous. You should buy a CK06 that is 0.1 uF (or two that are 0.22 uF and put them in series to get higher voltage rating). I was able to light the Christmas tree bulb with 0.22 uF charged to 400 volts. You should be able to light one with 0.1 uF charged to 1000 volts (if the cap does not short out). It is only going to blink, it will not stay lit. Once you can do that safely, then you can work you way up to larger caps in small steps.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: IotaYodi on January 14, 2010, 08:43:51 AM

QuoteWhen putting out the battery does one loose data?

No. The battery just keeps the bios cmos refreshed.
I must be missing something here. A 1000 amps width an aa battery? Anyone want to elaborate on this?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 14, 2010, 11:19:41 AM

Quote from: IotaYodi on January 14, 2010, 08:43:51 AM
No. The battery just keeps the bios cmos refreshed.
I must be missing something here. A 1000 amps width an aa battery? Anyone want to elaborate on this?

be careful!

w

uncle BUILD NEVER got an answer from ... MK1 bout the CONTACT MACHINE ...

HOPE you didnt think i was kidding......

im not!

lol

; )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptWnazF7OGU

rideing on a room disipear in the sky never ask questions spred wings and fly ...
sun bath in the suns raize and DREAM

AS WE BLAZE THIS T V SCEEN

808 my sky ... ; )

flipsyde!

THE DREAM TEAM MAKE A WISH!
the dreams teams are made of ...

W

THE MAGIC MAKER!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: unzapped on January 14, 2010, 12:57:51 PM

@ all regarding toroids...

Has anyone tried tape wound toriods or nickel powder? Basically metal banding then encased in plastic...

And just to clarify... The higher permeability the better for the ferrite?

And here is another question I had i could not answer...

He said with the joule thief... you are just stepping up the voltage... what makes the JT different that a regular voltage amplifier?

Who can answer this for me?

Thanks
Jason

Title: teach a man to fish...
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 14, 2010, 02:07:04 PM

an interesting thing happened to me while icefishing up on lake of the woods the last few days.
ice fishermen use batteries for all sorts of things while inside the relative comfort of a fishhouse. among the things that need power are fishfinders, radios, fans, pocket led flashlights to shine on your flourescent jig, etc.

while fishing we got a knock on the door, more of a shout through the canvas really, from some of our neighbors out on the ice wondering if we had any batteries as their jig shining light had just died on them. while my buddy was digging some fresh batteries out of his bag for them (minnesota nice) i asked if i could have the 'dead' batteries. the visitor and his friend watched with sort of a mild curiousity as i took each of the three aaa's and tried them out in my jt modded flashlight i was using to shine my jigs with to see which one was stronger. as i compared the strongest of the three to the really dead battery that was in there originally, i decided to use the one i had just gotten from the guy as it was much better. this must have got their attention because they asked about it, why it worked with only one battery and a 'dead' one at that.
i gave a short layman description about how the batteries aren't really 'dead' and how a simple jt circuit can get the most out of them and only require one 'dead' battery. they left intrigued but happy to have new batteries and we returned to slaying the walleye but the conversation remained on the jt and what it could do, what it could run...

a few weeks ago, a conversation about potato/lemon batteries (thanks mr mag!) that triggered a trip down memory lane had given me an idea, an idea that i wasn't ready to try last time i went ice fishing. this time i was prepared to test this idea and felt the timing was right too, my host was intrigued and probably wouldn't mind me sticking a 'water battery' down one of the tip up holes that were drilled outside the fishhouse. i had used a pvc tube, some copper pipe and a zinc rod to make a water battery. with the limited equipment i had (some alligator clips and the water battery) i got a jt circuit to light leds and power a 3v radio from a water battery hanging down a fishing hole. i wish i had brought a flash cam circuit to see if it would run... next time.

if any of you live on or near the water, this water battery might make a good alternative or suppliment to an earth battery setup? i wonder how well this would charge a b-cap? i used a water battery very similar to this although mine wasn't as sealed, i wasn't using rain water and have the unit submerged.
http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-make-a-powerful-water-battery/

as an aside, we caught fish like mad, limited out on walleye and sauger both days with numerous 25"+ fish caught and released. 24 to 26 feet of water just a bit off of pine island.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 14, 2010, 02:14:38 PM

Great questions Unzapped. People are amazed that you can take a dc current and turn it into highfrequency highvoltage using a highfrequency highvoltage transformation.. You can forget all the winding and the rest of the stuff going on here and just powerup a flyback transformer or ignition coil to get the same effects. The probelm most people are having here is realizing that they are not imposing the highfrequency highvoltage spikes on a suitable observer. Someone put it into a xeon tube and reinvented the strobe light circuit. The jule thief basically prooves that Faraday was correct when he discovered that emf is expotentially generated as a function of the rate of change in the field of interest. The higher the amplitude of the kick and the shorter the duty cycle the more profound the changes in the amount of energy occupied by a spacetime spot. Problem being is that as you approach nanosecond discharges of high potentials you are going to get a knock on the door from people who will take your little hobby project away because this type of action is easily detected and the highfrequency bands above xray are contiously monitored.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 14, 2010, 02:21:10 PM

Quote from: sparks on January 14, 2010, 02:14:38 PM
Great questions Unzapped. People are amazed that you can take a dc current and turn it into highfrequency highvoltage using a highfrequency highvoltage transformation.. You can forget all the winding and the rest of the stuff going on here and just powerup a flyback transformer or ignition coil to get the same effects. The probelm most people are having here is realizing that they are not imposing the highfrequency highvoltage spikes on a suitable observer. Someone put it into a xeon tube and reinvented the strobe light circuit. The jule thief basically prooves that Faraday was correct when he discovered that emf is expotentially generated as a function of the rate of change in the field of interest. The higher the amplitude of the kick and the shorter the duty cycle the more profound the changes in the amount of energy occupied by a spacetime spot. Problem being is that as you approach nanosecond discharges of high potentials you are going to get a knock on the door from people who will take your little hobby project away because this type of action is easily detected and the highfrequency bands above xray are contiously monitored.

there would be an argument about jurisdiction probably escalating to armed conflict before any of my 'hobby projects' get taken away... ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 14, 2010, 02:26:34 PM

@willby

Nother battery easy to make is saltwater with any two dissimilar metals in it. A zinc washer from the hardware store or junk yard and an aluminum can will suffice.

Also of interest is that a resonant circuit will pump a capacitor plate bone dry and fill up the other capacitor plate chalk a block. Whereas a simple capacitor discharge into a short only allows the individual plates of the capacitor to reach equal potentials before the current stops flowing.

I like Willby's attitude. What regularatory agency controls the uppper upper upper bands. You surely will not be interrupting radio communications because I dont see alot of hfrequency communications going on. And you can go lower also because again I dont see alot of elf communications going on. They would probably come in and say you are a public health danger to yourself and others. This would land you in a nuthouse where your sanity would have to be proven to a judge of some sort. You are clearly a danger to yourself if you gain energy from the conversion of mass and create radiation levels well below the smoke detectors proliferated throughout our homes and inacted into law to have them around.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 14, 2010, 03:43:37 PM

Quote from: unzapped on January 14, 2010, 12:57:51 PM
@ all regarding toroids...

Has anyone tried tape wound toriods or nickel powder? Basically metal banding then encased in plastic...

And just to clarify... The higher permeability the better for the ferrite?

And here is another question I had i could not answer...

He said with the joule thief... you are just stepping up the voltage... what makes the JT different that a regular voltage amplifier?

Who can answer this for me?

Thanks
Jason

Hi Jason,
I already confirmed that higher permeability makes the better toroid for our purposes,
ferrite is the only material according to the ferrite people that can give us this hi permeability. 11,000u or higher.= very very looow flux.
OK someone else chime in, please Jason wants to hear from another party.

What makes this a unique animal is the center tap.
It is worthless as a simple transformer, but when you make the center tapped primary the switching happens on the toroid in such a way that a secondary can do what you have witnessed... and beyond.

Again, someone else please add your comments.
EDIT, thanks sparks for the excellent reply that Jason can cut and paste and print...just leave out the cops and robbers part. It is for a flashlight.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: unzapped on January 14, 2010, 03:58:35 PM

@jeanna I should have phrased my toroid question differently... Is too much permability possible?

I guess the other question was also phrased incorrectly... is it possible to get the same performance by traditional means or is this unique to the JT's operation. Is there another way to fire cfl on a AA battery for the same period of time?

Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 14, 2010, 04:22:05 PM

That is a good question, but the 3.3 inch W has 11,000 u and I got 2 more samples which are 2.5 inches with the same meat in the toroid and the
J has about 11,000 u and the
W has about 14,000 u

the J showed promise, but, even though it had 11,000 u, it did not seem to do the same work.
It is always possible that the transistor had turned bad, I cannot remember when they went bad in relation to these tests, but...

The one that is in the latest video called hairpin is the 2.5 with 14,000u, and it has only around 100 turns instead of 330 turns and you can see...
It will make 1067 v with these, but it will surely need more turns to make 2000v which is what I ended up getting from the 3.3 inch. But, I got the 2,000 v from the 3.3 inch only by tuning it again later.

The upshot here is
"I dunno, maybe, maybe not."
xee2, said to us " get the highest permeability you can get" So far, I have no disagreement with this.

The thing is you can waste it.
And we do, and don't even know it.
I have been developing some realizations about this, but to discuss this requires that you read and understand the AC from joule thief thread, because in that thread I was doing experiments which showed me that there is a lot of use that we do not even know about.
We have no clue how to plug into it, let alone how to use it.

These are a lot of words to say... I don't know.

;)

So, I take it you already had your interview?
Oh sure, you are 3 hours ahead of me.
What happened?

jeanna
edit:

QuoteIs there another way to fire cfl on a AA battery for the same period of time?

I think once we understand the principles we are working the answer will be yes.

For now, we are reinventing what tesla and others from 100 years ago already knew.
We have both advantage to already have toaster ovens and DVD players, but the disadvantage that we do not know the first thing about the electricity and magnetism that makes them tick.
Those guys knew a priori what we still do not know.
I am having the best time of my life doing these projects. I would not trade having them handed to me for anything... for now, anyway.

j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: unzapped on January 14, 2010, 04:38:10 PM

It actually went really well! I am sending him some coil specs... and he is giving my Unzapped cell to his electrical engineer for further study... He seems to think he will be able to tell me which toroid material will give the best performance. For the time being he is going to get me some toriods based on whatever specs I provide him. Their winding machines are really awesome... I could live in that factory. So much stuff!... He was the one that said why wouldnt you just do that with a transformer, and asked what makes the thief so special... lol
I think within week or so he will give me a coil to my spec and windings to play with... they didnt have ferrite in stock in those sizes... but they had LOTS of ferrite, tape wound, iron and nickel powdered toroids a host of other material which would take a machine to wind...

Cool place for sure!

Thanks
Jason

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 14, 2010, 04:57:02 PM

SIR WILL AND SIR SPARKS

MOST WICKET POSTS!

btw i picked up some CAUTION TAPE FOR MY RINGS ..... to serve as a warning as well to hold the wires ...

j

lol

you gonna love me even more ...

lol

i bought 2 cfls brand new ... and im a magic make em big time

unit

2 cams ... 2 aaa.. 2 cfls ... 2 mots ...

kitty kitty bang bang!

ist!

: )

all left hand of course ... ; )

FOR J a pic of a riddle my mother left me last time i saw her!!

its for j ... cuz only a few know what i speek of ...

: )

BTW MOM LOCKED IT UP 4 ME ...

and she took out the seeds from my oranges ... while i find my bananas!

; )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 14, 2010, 05:29:16 PM

Quote from: unzapped on January 14, 2010, 04:38:10 PM
...
I think within week or so he will give me a coil to my spec and windings to play with... they didnt have ferrite in stock in those sizes... but they had LOTS of ferrite, tape wound, iron and nickel powdered toroids a host of other material which would take a machine to wind...

Cool place for sure!

It sounds like it.
Skip the powdered ones for now. We have had low results. We may crack their puzzle, but have not done so yet.

Have a look at the website for MMI

Then look at the toroids called
0W48613TC - that is the big gold. It is the W type 3.3inch toroid that gave me 2000 volts.
0W46113TC - that is the 14,000u one from the hairpin circuit video I made the other day.
0J46113TC - that is the same size as above, 11,000u I mentioned that almost does it, but not quite, and I don't know why not.

This will give you, and maybe your friend a start on knowing what we need, but we do not need just these.
I really think what we need is skill.

I have been using an unknown one that is 3/4 inch but has been giving me 500-900v... even lit a fl tube.
I am actually scared it will fry today's project, so I am backing off to use one of my earliest little toroids. I am making a grow light using leds today, and, I will be experimenting with the growth differences as this winter progresses.
=========

@wilby,
I love your icefishing tale.
That 12 year old's water pipe battery looks really cool.
I have not been able to make that kind of battery last more than a few days. Not because of the electrolyte so much, but because the metal gets crud.
Stephan offered a cool battery 2 years ago.
It was a graphite carpenter's pencil and alu foil.
I needed 2 in series and it lit a led for many days... until the alu foil became black I assume with carbon.
It is really a good thing to have one or 2 of these kinds of batteries around for dire emergencies, but have you ever given them a longevity test?
Like a 23 walleye battery? = how long it takes to catch 23?

thanks ,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 14, 2010, 05:39:30 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 14, 2010, 04:57:02 PM

btw i picked up some CAUTION TAPE FOR MY RINGS ..... to serve as a warning as well to hold the wires ...

Maybe for your caps, but last night after all those cautions, my 1000v dropped to 44v with the diode and cap, but it was OK, and rose back up to 1000v after I removed the diode and cap.

BAAH!
no tape needed, but your caps probably could cause a burn.

The problem with those big caps of yours is that it is not an easy thing to put a cap like that on the shelf along with a lamp.

This is great fun, but not too practical yet.

How small a cap will allow you to light an unmodified cfl?
That is interesting to me, because someone can actually use it and not need the wall power.
See?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 14, 2010, 05:44:55 PM

baby GET READY ...

100w light bulb from a b cap and cam boards 1 aa ... bet it runs a long time .....

lol

probally get hot too might burn your hand .... DID I SAY 1 OR 10? lol does it matter much

lol

love ya ...

awaiteing B CAP .. THEN VIDEO TIME ......

lightS camea Action!

H

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 14, 2010, 05:46:42 PM

Quote from: jeanna on January 14, 2010, 05:39:30 PM
Maybe for your caps, but last night after all those cautions, my 1000v dropped to 44v with the diode and cap, but it was OK, and rose back up to 1000v after I removed the diode and cap.

BAAH!
no tape needed, but your caps probably could cause a burn.

The problem with those big caps of yours is that it is not an easy thing to put a cap like that on the shelf along with a lamp.

This is great fun, but not too practical yet.

How small a cap will allow you to light an unmodified cfl?
That is interesting to me, because someone can actually use it and not need the wall power.
See?

thank you,

jeanna

hey ... i still think you missed it ...

but whatever!

those mag smakers ... ty

w

please re read sparks and wills posts ...

and MOST CERTIANLY CAUTION TAPE IS A MUST!

IT WENT ON THE 18 " RING ...

what might happen if i fire it 200w rms ... and flick it then kick it then rize it .. then ringggg it ?

piss white lightning .... ?

you know it !

I DIDNT CALL IT THE WSPS 4 NUTTIN!

: )

H

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 14, 2010, 05:58:05 PM

J

THERE CAPS INSIDE THE CFL UNIT ...
i create a PUSH WITH A JT OR VARIENT... store it to an approite voltage ... then it pushes ....

k

to the caps in the cfl tv invertor WHATEVER...... then when the caps are FULL the device operates ....

till they drain .... then RE PETE! : )

AUTOMATIC ...

im building a unit 4 u

so chill .. : )

H

this pluggs into your golden cow ... BACKWARD DRAWKCAB

LOL

NOW DO IT 60 TIMES A SECOND ...... TA DA!

MY MAGIC!

LOL

LOOK 60HZ IMAGINE ... FROM A AA

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on January 14, 2010, 06:05:21 PM

Quote from: unzapped on January 14, 2010, 04:38:10 PM
It actually went really well! I am sending him some coil specs... and he is giving my Unzapped cell to his electrical engineer for further study... He seems to think he will be able to tell me which toroid material will give the best performance. For the time being he is going to get me some toriods based on whatever specs I provide him. Their winding machines are really awesome... I could live in that factory. So much stuff!... He was the one that said why wouldnt you just do that with a transformer, and asked what makes the thief so special... lol
I think within week or so he will give me a coil to my spec and windings to play with... they didnt have ferrite in stock in those sizes... but they had LOTS of ferrite, tape wound, iron and nickel powdered toroids a host of other material which would take a machine to wind...

Cool place for sure!

Thanks
Jason

Hi Jason,

Nothing special or magical about this circuit configuration named as a JT. Sparks has answered the question of it's functionality very well. It's a very simple self oscillating switching circuit. If you look at the secondary winding but replace the transistors collector and emitter with a manual switch and keep operating the switch you will produce an output from the coils stored energy (in very simple terms) the feedback or primary winding negative pulse counteracts the positive bias voltage which normally causes the transistor to remain turned on. The circuit thus self switches at a timing rate as depicted by the component materials making up the circuit. Owing to the simplicity of construction and the added novelty that it works at such a low source voltage has gained popularity amongst experimenters here. So you can see from a simple circuit what else can be achieved by these dedicated experiments.

BTW Amongst the best ferrite toroids I have come across suitable for JT's have been reclaimed from scrap switching power supplies as used on industrial truck chargers or PC power supplies, look for none smooth toroids that have a light grey roughened finish to them. The other tip is to use thin insulated stranded hook up wire. Try and get to grips with how semiconductor devices work and study oscillators... plenty of info available.
Have fun Merv.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on January 14, 2010, 06:19:24 PM

@ Jeanna

In your quest to charge caps... as already stated please be carefull. The thing to remember here is they instantaneously discharge into low resistance loads i.e. filaments, the current will be high but only for a mere fraction of a second depending on the capacitance value. A CFL may possibly give a flash but require a pulse or sinewave voltage to work. Also take note of the working voltage as marked on the capacitor. Use a series diode anode side to JT and cathode side to + side of capacitor. Include a series resistor if you want to reduce the initial charge surge current. But that's as much as you can do with a single cap as it stands. Merv

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 14, 2010, 06:34:15 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna link=topic=6123.msg222568#msg222568 A=1263508770
my 1000v dropped to 44v with the diode and cap, but it was OK, and rose back up to 1000v after I removed the diode and cap.

I would guess that the diode is backwards or your cap is shorting out. You may need to use two diodes in series and two caps in series to handle the high voltage.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 14, 2010, 06:52:30 PM

J what diode do u use ?

xee#@ diode ?

this plays a large roll

USE THE DB 107 BRIDGE ... 1000V 1 A

I BOUGHT 500 OF EM ....

i have had super results ... i will try them on the cam boards ...

1 cam i get 350v plus ac ... at 7ma

2 14 ma

12

over 800v 150 ma + ac ontop of it !!!!!!!!

: )

w

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 14, 2010, 06:53:38 PM

Quote from: crowclaw on January 14, 2010, 06:19:24 PM

In your quest to charge caps...

Actually my quest is really to get some warmth happening in the cfl so it can glow as bright as when it is plugged into the wall.

I have gathered that pushing the charge by means of the cap will get the cfl going when still unmodified. If I can get it to work unmodified, I believe it will glow brighter.

And, as far as the filament bulbs go, xee2 and wilby are the only ones I remember doing this with a jt.
xee2 has used kooler's circuit, and wilby did not answer when I asked him, but heairbear was over that evening so...

thanks; any ideas on this?
Have you managed to light a filament bulb or a cfl unmodified with your jtc's?

Please share if so.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 14, 2010, 06:59:33 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 14, 2010, 06:52:30 PM
J what diode do u use ?

USE THE DB 107 BRIDGE ... 1000V 1 A

I used a 1000v 1A 1N4007
and a
Hi voltage ceramic cap 105 = 1uF

I did not use a bridge.

I do not believe xee2 was telling me to use a bridge.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 14, 2010, 07:22:54 PM

Quote from: jeanna on January 14, 2010, 06:59:33 PM
I used a 1000v 1A 1N4007
and a
Hi voltage ceramic cap 105 = 1uF

I did not use a bridge.

I do not believe xee2 was telling me to use a bridge.

thank you,

jeanna

first off your useing your ring right ... from the secondary ?

if so use a bridge and cap and your cap sux

lol

w

try the ones i showed rectangle ac ~ caps

my cam boards are neg flyback cap tapped and rectified fly back .. ... ring is INDEPENDENT!

some common ground some common pos ....

i have many boards wired many ways ...

hope this helps ...

there better diodes too try a switching one ... 914 i think or a crystal one ... i dont know the part #

but there weird looking ones

those gave best results ... also ... your making your ring SING .... you will never get it to work properly ...

you must tune it just after you can no longer hear it ... for best cap chargeing results ...

i fear your coil is not tuned for such use ...

the wjt is like your singing coil ... but better results for caps are atained when it is silent!!

scope it ... you will see ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 14, 2010, 08:22:08 PM

loggie does a surprise visit .. says dont forget thermal escape pod too !

that little fella!

lol

love the magic...

w

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 14, 2010, 09:01:24 PM

A couple of pix
These show the safe way I am doing this.
I will not grab the ends because it is all so stable.
the diode and where the cap and stripe are.
The scope showing over 1000v, 2.39khz
That it is quite a capable jtc for a cfl of 10-20w size... more probably.

I am afraid these components won't do, or something.
They are both rated for 1000v which means plenty.
They shut it right down. Close it off.

@all, thanks for your help,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 14, 2010, 09:26:31 PM

@ jeanna

You do not need a big capacitor to light a filament bulb. I made this video of a filament bulb being strobed repeatedly by koolers circuit. This is using a 0.11 uF cap that is being charged to 400 volts and then discharged through the bulb. You should get the same brightness if you charge a 0.1 uF capacitor to 400 volts and then discharge it through a bulb. But it will only be a blink. This bulb is being blinked over and over at a rapid rate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3B9yIwBlpM

I am getting VERY frustrated with this editor. It changes what I have written when it posts. I will try to correct it. - done.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on January 14, 2010, 09:30:38 PM

Quote from: unzapped on January 14, 2010, 03:58:35 PM
@jeanna I should have phrased my toroid question differently... Is too much permability possible?

I guess the other question was also phrased incorrectly... is it possible to get the same performance by traditional means or is this unique to the JT's operation. Is there another way to fire cfl on a AA battery for the same period of time?

Thanks

Unzapped

I agree with what Jeanna has said about toroids

I would say other shapes can be used for JTs but the toroid is very efficient
I read somewhere that it is so efficient because it has an even and continuous path for the magnetic flux

I would say that the second best core would be an E core .......I have been suprised a few times by how well a small ferrite core transformer did when it was wired up as a JT coil .

As far as ferrite or other materials , I think ferrite is by far the best for the JT.
I would say that for higher power powder core toroids may work as well......but JTs are low power.

From my experience a powered iron toroid takes alot more primary windings to get it to work .
Most of the stuff here involves large secondarys
If your primary takes up half the toroid.... there is not alot of space left to play with .

Do you know if your fried can do bifilar windings ?
2 wires wound like they were one?
Pretty much all my JTs are bifilar .

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I am still working on my Jeanna light

I seem to be comming full circle....... I am back to my same old flyback and feedback experments ......only this time with my candy cane coils

I have got some fairly good results with my 90 LED array.........but I don't have enough toroids to get the voltage to light a CFL

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 14, 2010, 09:44:38 PM

Quote from: xee2 on January 14, 2010, 09:26:31 PM
@ jeanna

You do not need a big capacitor to light a filament bulb. I made A of a filament bulb being strobed repeatedly by koolers circuit. This is using a 0.11 uF cap that is being charged to 400 volts and then discharged through the bulb. You should get the same brightness if you charge a 0.1 uF capacitor to 400 volts and then discharge it through a bulb. But it will only be a blink. This bulb is being blinked over and over at a rapid rate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3B9yIwBlpM

Well that is pretty darn good. A little faster and the eye will not detect the flashing!!

I am not using koolers circuit. I am just starting with 1000volts. 2.3khz.
I do not get any voltage when I add the diode and cap.
It is totally strange to me.
I am pretty sure the diode is in right. isn't it?

Maybe I need a series inductor instead of a diode.

....
thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 14, 2010, 09:53:00 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna link=topic=6123.msg222663#msg222663 A=1263523478
I do not get any voltage when I add the diode and cap.

The voltage on the capacitor is DC. Are you using the meter set at DC?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 14, 2010, 10:37:20 PM

I should be getting pulsed dc in which case the scope can show me the peaks.
And there are no peaks.
Anyway I am reading volts across the cap wires because the secondary wires lead into those.
thank you, xee2.
=======

@All,
I think I need a filament bulb where the filament is broken.
The sparks that jump from the secondary wire to the bulb wire are about 1/32 inch long if that. The scope sees 1000v, so, it is about right if ADMoore is right.
So, if there were a space that size between wires inside the bulb, maybe it would make a spark brush.

Maybe what we/I need is the kind of bulb tesla was making for his high voltage.
I thing in the end he used the fluro tube, but he played with vacuum or plain air and a lot of other things. We probably do not have what he made except for the fl tube.

OK I need to see what additional series inductors can do to the hairpin, since that is my next question. :D

Thank you all for your help,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 14, 2010, 10:40:13 PM

@ jeanna

Attached is what you should have except with a larger capacitor and the bulb would go where the voltmeter is after the capacitor is charged (only takes several seconds).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 14, 2010, 10:49:32 PM

@ jeanna

The DC in the cap is not pulsed. It is the same as in a battery.

What does your scope show when you hook it up to a battery?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 14, 2010, 10:49:54 PM

Quote from: xee2 on January 14, 2010, 10:40:13 PM
@ jeanna

Attached is what you should have except with a larger capacitor and the bulb would go where the voltmeter is after the capacitor is charged (only takes several seconds).

Thank you for finding that picture.

That is what I have and the cap is 105 instead of 102. It is in the pic. It is a ceramic and rated for 1000v. The diode is 1N4007.
I do not have the 200uF at the battery, but that should not make any difference. This coil is producing 1000v without it.
The sparks show the voltage is coming out the secondary in a very steady stream. If you look with a lens you see this pretty purplish (uv?) color.

:D,
just no light in the bulb.
thanks,

jeanna

Quote from: xee2 on January 14, 2010, 10:49:32 PM
@ jeanna

The DC in the cap is not pulsed. It is the same as in a battery.

What does your scope show when you hook it up to a battery?

OH

So, that is why you wanted a second coil and the ignition coil?
first, you took the secondary then you flattened it with the cap then pulsed it again to give the spikes you used in the end.
Is that the way you worked it?

j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 14, 2010, 11:01:11 PM

what is the diode rated in freq ...

perhaps it is not a verry high freq diode .... but you said your output is 2.... khz ...

i used 4007 but as i said others work better ... i have built i bet u 50 things useing 4007

and 4001 for feedback off base ...

most are air core coils ran at 5k ...

any how have fun hope you work it out ...

i just got 15 9v batteries FOR ALL MY METERS ....

cleaned table 3 and 4 up ready to ROCK!

and set up a 3 teer spool shelf ... lol

and i will begin to get my cam boards ready .. for the 30 cfl boards i have laying round .. so i can bang at like 100v cfl freq...

: )

or even go so far as to just rectify from cfl to cap ... insted of bulb ...

playing paints the picture ...

w

the piano man!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=se9rfWucgeY

paul is talking to davvie whos still in the navy!
and probally will be for life .......
while the buisness men slowly get stoned

REGARDS~

AND SAY MAN WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE.......

~~~~~IH~~~~~

wateing on Q ...... la ditty da titty da da

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 15, 2010, 12:31:35 AM

i notice that people are using a resistor to limit the current through the base cirucit of the jt. This wastes energy couldnt you couple the base of the jt through a capacitor instead of a resistor? Create a series resonant circuit between the inductance of the primary and the capacitance in the base circuit.

This text editor is messing up and puts a capitol A in and deletes the word following the letter a for me very frustrating.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 15, 2010, 12:57:04 AM

fired up the big yellow and black 1 aa ...

3.6vac 102.5khz at 12.5 db.. from collector ... no connection ... to jt

plus 10 other surprizes ... lol

oscolating ac and dc .. 2 diffrent places .. plus all fly backs and such as per npn magic maker ...

if i full wave bridge the collector and cap it will be higher volts ...

like 5vdc flyback .. still enough to self run .. lol

bla bla ...

0 secondaries on it yet ... i have room for miles of secondary wire ... quite literly ...

ist!

and i still can load it and accelerate it ... i would like to hit 180khz .... ; ) and add some magnets .. and A MAGIC FEED BACK OSCOLATOR ...

w

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 15, 2010, 01:27:33 AM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on January 14, 2010, 10:49:54 PM
Thank you for finding that picture.

That is what I have and the cap is 105 instead of 102. It is in the pic. It is a ceramic and rated for 1000v. The diode is 1N4007.
I do not have the 200uF at the battery, but that should not make any difference. This coil is producing 1000v without it.
The sparks show the voltage is coming out the secondary in a very steady stream. If you look with a lens you see this pretty purplish (uv?) color.

:D,
just no light in the bulb.
thanks,

jeanna
OH

So, that is why you wanted a second coil and the ignition coil?
first, you took the secondary then you flattened it with the cap then pulsed it again to give the spikes you used in the end.
Is that the way you worked it?

j

Perhaps a single pulse will not light the bulb with only a 0.1 uF cap. I never tried just using a cap, I have always used the scr pulse circuit. In the attached video the bulbs are being pulsed with a 2 uF cap, so I know that works but it is really dangerous (please do not try). So I guess you understand how it works, but maybe there is no safe way to do it. Even a 0.5 uF cap is big enough to give you a very bad burn when charged to 1000 volts. So I think the only safe way to do this is with the scr circuit if it does not work the way you have tried with 0.1 uF.

Incidentally, I do not think warming the CFL will make it brighter. I think they are brighter when working from the wall because they are getting more current.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 15, 2010, 02:07:27 AM

As I mentioned to Jeanna, I have done a few crude, subjective tests concerning heat and my 18" tube. After making the Pirate Light as seen in my last video, I remembered what Jeanna had been saying and I held the tube above one of my oil lamps. I was very careful when I did this. I tested the heat with my hand and decided to hold the tube about 1 foot above the top of the lamp glass. I slowly moved it along the length of the tube and then, when it was good and warm, hit my switch. The tube was brighter. How much brighter is hard to say as it is totally subjective on my part. The cool thing was, once I had it warm, I left the tube lit for about 4 hours and, it "seemed" to remain in the brighter mode even though the tube had cooled to room temperature. (In this case, about 69 degrees F)

My kitchen has 4 18" tubes in the ceiling using grid power. When I get up in the morning, it is about 60 degrees F in my apartment and when I turn on those lights, they are very dim. They have to be on for over an hour before they get to what I would call "grid brightness". We saw this same phenomenon in my machine shop in the winter time.

I can't say for sure but it does appear that having the gas in the tubes warm up a bit does help the light output. Now I know we are not lighting these the way the factory designed them to be lit, ballasts, amps, etc. But this is what I have seen thus far. Same thing with CFL's. They seem to need to be on for a while before reaching full brightness. (on the grid) Others should try this and report their findings so we can compare.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 15, 2010, 02:07:49 AM

J

BUILT YOUR BACKWARD DRAWKCAB

COW GIRL TOY!

YOU ll LOVE IT ...

IT PULSES H SPEED ...

IT IS A 13 W CFL 110VAC 210 MA DRAW AS PER ORIGNAL MARKET DESIGN ...

find those caps .. I use...

w

and DO NOT TOUCH IT ...

K

ILL MAKE YOU A VIDEO ...

there diffrent cfls than i lit b4 thease dont get full bright but this pulse nice speed ...

this is from a aa ...

i also shot you the sparks .. CAP IS ALWAYS FULL i can not.. not make it bang i cant short it fast enough by hand ... to depleat the cap !

; )

for you by me

and all you need to do is remove the bulb ... fasten to STAGE 2 ... then lite many bulbs ....

heck even throw it on the input of your coil .. lol

H

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 15, 2010, 02:14:36 AM

Quote from: xee2 on January 15, 2010, 01:27:33 AM
@ jeanna

Perhaps a single pulse will not light the bulb with only a 0.1 uF cap. I never tried just using a cap, I have always used the scr pulse circuit. In the attached video the bulbs are being pulsed with a 2 uF cap, so I know that works ...

I guess I didn't think the scr was more unusual than having 1000 pulsing volts, or I was hoping that anyway.

I used a 1uF earlier, so now, I could put 2 in series and see, but I believe the diode was blocking this because there was no oscillation if I put the scope probe at the diode point but not including the cap.
However, I will give it a try once again. And try another diode too.

QuoteIncidentally, I do not think warming the CFL will make it brighter. I think they are brighter when working from the wall because they are getting more current.

Some of it may be current, but not all of it.
If you lived in a colder climate you would know that much of the brightness is heat related. ;)
I have several that struggle to go on in the morning; then they are very dim, but in 10 minutes they are blazing bright.
Sometimes, you can see where your fingers leave warm spots on the cold bulb. Not later, of course, but when it is still cold.
This is what never happens with the jt HV lighting arrangement.

I am happy with 1000v for the cfl. It is bright enough.
but the LoA bulbs are much brighter per volt and when 1000 v can light 2 or 3 the room is brighter lit.

Again thank you,

jeanna

@ist,
Thank you.
I look forward to the video.
j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 15, 2010, 02:35:01 AM

ya !

i bet it is a kick a$$ b cap charger too ...

just another thing on the pile...

yay!

what is the out put of a standard cfl?

volts and freq?

!

btw the sparks i demo ... may just turn you off what im doing .....

; )

there not as lould as my neo zap but close ... and theres no NEO THERE YET!!!

I YI YI

LOL

I HAVE USED AS MUCH AS 20VDC 4 AMP TO SMAK a neo .. and lite bulbs ... and i bet i can do it with this unit no cfl ... lol with cfl ... not sure if im brave enough to try it !!!!!!

as i smoked mots with 4 amp .. and a neo ... litterly smokey room!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 15, 2010, 02:42:10 AM

IST:

Do you do anything else besides build electronic devices? I would love to come visit you one day and see all of your projects. I have said many times here that you have wound more toroids than I ever could if I wound 24 hours a day for the rest of my life, ha ha. (It is true)

I am glad you are here with us.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 15, 2010, 02:47:04 AM

its starting to get boring ..

i had to teach .. my tricks ...

share ... ya know

now im getting sick of the things i have made my own .. and reclaimed ...

cuz i cant even give em away ...

sad really ...

all i hope is others learned the knowalage ...

peace ..

W

i some times solve age old riddles for fun .... to pass the time ...

got to be more to life than i currently have known ...

teleportation bairly intrests me any more ...

star gates so what ....

another silly riddle ...

any how

dont even want the peace prize any more ... lol

maybe AG .. cuz i never did it yet .. but it seams super simple too ... espically if i use the switch it !

but i hardly see my kids .. so i spend my time here ... and when i do all they want to do is build things ...

so i build!

im UNCLE BUILD!

: )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on January 15, 2010, 04:51:38 AM

@ Jeanna,

I have had a look at your pics. Your CFL is lit good and bright from your JT, your are producing very high voltage positive pulses... exciting the mercury atoms to produce short wavelength ultra violet light. You then appear to place a series connected diode with a capacitor at the output across the CFL. You are effectively smoothing out your pulsed DC to produce a steady state DC output? the CFL won't light, neither can I quite understand what you are trying to do here. So let me try and help you understand how a capacitor charges. Look at XEE2's circuit, depending on the value of your capacitor in micro farads, will depict how long it will take to charge up and likewise discharge. Larger values of capacitance will take notably longer to charge. When the capacitor is fully discharged and then connected to the output of your circuit it represents quite a low impedance or resistance to the inflow of current to charge it up. OK depending on your JT coil configuration the circuit will see this as an initial short but recovers as the capacitor starts to charge up. This situation is the time constant, the length of time it takes for a capacitor to fully charge and of course discharge. The charge stored in a capacitor is measured in coulombs ( Q=CV) which is proportional to the capacitance and the voltage being applied. The measure of capacitance is how much charge it can store per volt. Next consider a capacitor can release it's charge at a much higher current than that used to charge it, but cannot supply a higher voltage than that which charged it. By discharging the stored current energy from your capacitor into a low resistance load such as a filament etc. you may see that filament glow for the period of time taken for the capacitor to release it's charge. Now then_ if you can replenish the charge and repeat the process you will see the filament flashing. Remember its all to do with time constants... how long it takes to charge up to how long it takes to discharge.
Always take into account the maximum working voltage of your capacitor. Capacitors can be series wired to increase their voltage handling but the total value of capacitance will be reduced... for equal value capacitors in series the capacitance value is half which is the opposite for parallel combinations. Hope this information helps you. Merv

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on January 15, 2010, 07:19:25 AM

I'm not really sure if this should be posted here or in Dr Stiffler's thread.

I'm using a cell phone charger to run a joule thief thats running a SEC 15.
It's also charging a 12v 7.5 ah battery and ten AA batteries and making light at the same time.

Here is a video of it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u4wdqTg1Mg

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 15, 2010, 09:19:04 AM

nice slayer007

that charged fast!

im on to makeing the hv pulser..

today

i will build a small all in 1 unit ...

to test cap chargeing and coil fireing ...

ist!

those H1 CAPS CHARGE SO VERRY NICE ...

i ripped aparth the cap motor .. to modd it for high volt banging...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 15, 2010, 10:26:51 AM

well got that done ...

i took the cfl apart ... too

wateing for batteries to charge ...

this thing chews up inputted engery ..

no concern if you use a b cap on input!

but it apears to fire quite nicely ..

the cfls i have lit really bright were 7w this is a 13w

ill add some pics ...

it has a nice transformer inside it and a super tiny tim toroide ..

KOOLER ....

w

2 bucks at ramma! mk1

now in previous reserch .. i was playing with a clf tube and my little t coil jt and this is what lead to the discovery of it ... i was liteing the cfl through a BRIDGE 107DB ... and i slipped off the connection with the cfl tube ... and it blew up my coil ... it then was arcking ... and still rectifing but not liteing the cfl ...

serinieo #1 the kick produced from the cfl when i cut it ... flew back and found a week point in the wire ...

so ... i may leave the cfl bulb on the circuit .. and just add the coil ...

perhaps .. it will work better ...

lol or wrap a coil on the bulb ... lol ; )

case and point it works well cheep to make and if you do it right you wont get zapped ... plus it is force feed!

means you only need a primary ... and bang secondary harvest from primary rectified ...

BET YOU GAIN IN AMPS ....

W

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 15, 2010, 11:07:11 AM

Quote from: slayer007 on January 15, 2010, 07:19:25 AM
I'm not really sure if this should be posted here or in Dr Stiffler's thread.

I'm using a cell phone charger to run a joule thief thats running a SEC 15.
It's also charging a 12v 7.5 ah battery and ten AA batteries and making light at the same time.

Here is a video of it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u4wdqTg1Mg

nice work! i think it's great you posted it here, it shows one more thing that a jt can provide source for.
is your tower the standard windings?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on January 15, 2010, 11:21:49 AM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on January 15, 2010, 11:07:11 AM
nice A! i think it's great you posted it here, it shows one more thing that a jt can provide source for.
is your tower the standard windings?

Thanks WilbyInebriated

Yes the towers are standard windings.
They were done from the specs on Dr Stifflers page here.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/17695261/Wireless-or-OneWire-Energy-Transmission-Construction-Guide

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: zhak on January 15, 2010, 12:24:24 PM

Quote from: jeanna on January 14, 2010, 09:01:24 PM
A couple of pix
These show the safe way I am doing this.
I will not grab the ends because it is all so stable.
the diode and where the cap and stripe are.
The scope showing over 1000v, 2.39khz
That it is quite a capable jtc for a cfl of 10-20w size... more probably.

I am afraid these components won't do, or something.
They are both rated for 1000v which means plenty.
They shut it right down. Close it off.

@all, thanks for your help,

jeanna

jeanna

Prompt what ÐºÐ°Ð½Ð´Ð¸Ð½ÑÐ°Ñ,Ð¾Ñ€ it was used in this circuit, give the exact data?

What to put polar or not polar?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: zhak on January 15, 2010, 12:46:46 PM

Quote from: xee2 on January 14, 2010, 10:40:13 PM

Attached is what you should have except with a larger capacitor and the bulb would go where the voltmeter is after the capacitor is charged (only takes several seconds).

xee2
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6123.0;attach=41128;image

Prompt what ÐºÐ°Ð½Ð´Ð¸Ð½ÑÐ°Ñ,Ð¾Ñ€ it was used in this circuit, give the exact data?

What to put polar or not polar?
100uF........?
220pF........?

This circuit works?
In advance thanks !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 15, 2010, 12:52:18 PM

@zhak

if i recall correctly jeanna's circuit used a 1uF not polar capacitor.

xee's circuit uses a not polar capacitor also, 200uf.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 15, 2010, 01:19:42 PM

@ zhak

Quote from: zhak on January 15, 2010, 12:46:46 PM
xee2
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6123.0;attach=41128;image

Prompt what ÐºÐ°Ð½Ð´Ð¸Ð½ÑÐ°Ñ,Ð¾Ñ€ it was used in this circuit, give the exact data?

What to put polar or not polar?
100uF........?
220pF........?

This circuit works?
In advance thanks !

This is not a specific circuit. It is an example meant to show how I measure the output voltage of the pickup coil. Any type of capacitor can be use but the voltage rating of the capacitor must be as high as the output voltage of the pickup coil. I use ceramic capacitors that are not polarized.

EDIT: I use capacitor values of 100 pF to 1000 pF for measuring voltage.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: zhak on January 15, 2010, 01:35:48 PM

Quote from: xee2 on January 15, 2010, 01:19:42 PM
@ zhak

This is not a specific circuit. It is an example meant to show how I measure the output voltage of the pickup coil. Any type of capacitor can be use but the voltage rating of the capacitor must be as high as the output voltage of the pickup coil. I use ceramic capacitors that are not polarized.

approximately -
On how many capacitors volt V?
100uF........?
220pF........?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 15, 2010, 01:45:38 PM

Quote from: zhak on January 15, 2010, 01:35:48 PM
approximately -
On how many capacitors volt V?
100uF........?
220pF........?

I use 1000 pf rated at 3000 volts. But voltage rating does not need to be any higher than pickup coil output voltage. Add capacitors in series to work with higher voltage if you do not have a capacitor with sufficient voltage rating.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: zhak on January 15, 2010, 02:07:51 PM

AND POLAR THE CAPACITOR HERE CAN BE USED? AND WHERE WILL BE + AND - ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 15, 2010, 02:28:47 PM

Quote from: zhak on January 15, 2010, 02:07:51 PM
AND POLAR THE A HERE CAN BE USED? AND WHERE WILL BE + AND - ?

Same as meter. You should not need polarized caps.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 15, 2010, 03:04:55 PM

Quote from: crowclaw on January 15, 2010, 04:51:38 AM
@ Jeanna,

I have had a look at your pics. Your CFL is lit good and bright from your JT, your are producing very high voltage positive pulses... exciting the mercury atoms to produce short wavelength ultra violet light. You then appear to place a series connected diode with a capacitor at the output across the CFL. You are effectively smoothing out your pulsed DC to produce a steady state DC output? the CFL won't light, neither can I quite understand what you are trying to do here. So let me try and help you understand how a capacitor charges. Look at XEE2's circuit, depending on the value of your capacitor in micro farads, will depict how long it will take to charge up and likewise discharge. ...

I am trying to make a light go on that normally does not. And to start, I want to get the unmodified cfl bulb to light so I can take advantage of all the caps and resistors inside which I believe warm it up which I believe makes it brighter.
You have seen xee2's circuit because you refer to it.
I am using the same design but with a 1uF 1000v ceramic cap and a 1N4007 diode.

What I think I want is a booster pop to start the cfl going, but maybe since the inside circuit is assuming a 110 sinusoidal wave this cannot work,

Ultimately I want to light a filament bulb to constant and full brightness using my jtc.
(I don't ask for much, I know ;D )
I saw the kapandaze team do this and I want that. I want that without the obnoxious noise and all the other problems attendant to the spark, when the spark is used continuously. Those problems are addressed at length by tesla, and I do not want to have to go to the "spark house"= generator shed and clean off the soot from the terminals every so often... etc.

I want to do this all with one transistor and one 1.5v battery ( :D)
I am very close, well, at least I have the solved the lighting issues in a home, and I am just trying to move it forward to the next horizon.
I have referred to this as the toaster, but before the toaster I really need to light the filament bulb.

thank you.
I did not expect to get a winner right off yesterday, but I really did not expect the circuit to shut down. xee2 has used this circuit for this whole year to calculate his pick up (secondary) voltage.

Now, what I find curious is that you understand immediately why I should see NO voltage after installing the diode and cap. What I do not understand is how you say that but then seem to say that xee2's circuit will do the job.

=======
@zhak,
That word means "capacitor"
I have not been able to make this work.
I HAVE been able to collect all the output into a polarized capacitor.
Here is how I did that:
Put both secondary wires into a full bridge rectifier, and
add 2 more diodes at the + and - output and then collect it in a polarized capacitor (cap)

This collects all of it and makes a very hot and large spark.
I did not get anything when I only used 1 diode.

thanks everybody,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 15, 2010, 04:04:13 PM

@ jeanna

Just for you, and just to make sure it really works, I put a Christmas tree bulb across a 0.5 uF capacitor (actually two 1 uF in series) charged to 800 volts. This is what happened (attached video). So, it really does work.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 15, 2010, 04:32:44 PM

@jeanna

Are you still using 2 resistor in your circuit to protect the transistor ?

I bet it would last longer without it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 15, 2010, 04:33:39 PM

Quote from: xee2 on January 15, 2010, 04:04:13 PM
@ jeanna

Just for you, and just to make sure it really works, I put a Christmas tree bulb across a 0.5 uF capacitor (actually two 1 uF in series) charged to 800 volts. This is what happened (attached video). So, it really does work.

Thank you xee2,
Is this a circuit like mine? (like your drawing), or is this Kooler's with the added ignition coil?

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 15, 2010, 04:36:31 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 15, 2010, 04:32:44 PM
@jeanna

Are you still using 2 resistor in your circuit to protect the transistor ?

I bet it would last longer without it.

My total base resistance is 65ohms
I have the rheostat wired in place but it is wide open.

What would last longer? the spark?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 15, 2010, 04:44:11 PM

even my little 1 " gold mine flashes an un modded cfl ...

cam does it brighter tho ... also uses more .....

i found another cfl it flashes slower .. and brighter ..

but they all fill and fire ... ring or cam un modded or modded in some cases ...

w

all done with same aa

now what if i add 2 or 3 from aa source .... glow bright ? constant .... un modded right out the pack ...

bet ya !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 15, 2010, 04:44:46 PM

Quote from: jeanna on January 15, 2010, 04:36:31 PM
My total base resistance is 65ohms
I have the rheostat wired in place but it is wide open.

What would last longer? the spark?

thank you,

jeanna

You know the resistor i mean , the one you use to put before the circuit , i guess you replaced it with a rheostat .

Longer i mean run time.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 15, 2010, 04:47:18 PM

Well, then what am I doing wrong?

I am in the process of getting 2 to light off one line today, but they are modified.

And ist,
if you are adding 500F and not telling me, please fess up!

;),

j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 15, 2010, 04:52:19 PM

Quote from: jeanna on January 15, 2010, 04:47:18 PM
Well, then what am I doing wrong?

I am in the process of getting 2 to light off one line today, but they are modified.

And ist,
if you are adding 500F and not telling me, please fess up!

;),

j

j

my ring is .22uf 2 turn 1" gm 100 turn there bouts 30 ga rs

my cams just the cheepest things i could find ..

i tryed to make a video but ... baaaa

ill try agin later!

agin my CFLS USE 120 MA 110V TO OPERATE PROPERLY ...

i have not supplyed it enough to run constant yet from a aa as it were pluged in the wall ...

but IM VERRY CLOSE ....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 15, 2010, 04:56:50 PM

Quote from: jeanna on January 15, 2010, 04:47:18 PM
Well, then what am I doing wrong?

I am in the process of getting 2 to light off one line today, but they are modified.

And ist,
if you are adding 500F and not telling me, please fess up!

;),

j

Dumb question. Why do you want to drive an unmodified CFL?

You try to run the jt in the most efficient manner but then you are taking the output and feeding it into an inefficient circuit board on the CFL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 15, 2010, 04:57:07 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 15, 2010, 04:44:46 PM
You know the resistor i mean , the one you use to put before the circuit , i guess you replaced it with a rheostat .

Longer i mean run time.

OK just fyi, I use the base resistor to protect the base of the transistor.

The rheostat or the protection I was using in my multiple secondary experiments was eye protection because those leds at full brightness were hurting me after an hour.

And to answer your question,
No, Whenever I want to see what is really going on, I remove that resistor and blast my eyes!

The rheostat, here is for the' jeanna's light' and similar circuits. This lowers the input voltage and allows the cfl to remain lit for many more hours with a simple turn of the knob.

Again no,
The only resistor I am using with this is at the base and right now it is
68ohm
2.03Khz
1110v

thank you,

jeanna

Quote from: MrMag on January 15, 2010, 04:56:50 PM
Dumb question. Why do you want to drive an unmodified CFL?

You try to run the jt in the most efficient manner but then you are taking the output and feeding it into an inefficient circuit board on the CFL.

We went over this last night.

I want the heat from the inefficient board, because that heat makes the bulb very much brighter.
and
the next step is to light a filament bulb like kapandanze, but without the spark, just with the pulses from a transistor.
I know this is asking a lot.
I also demand a lot of myself.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 15, 2010, 05:01:58 PM

Quote from: MrMag on January 15, 2010, 04:56:50 PM
Dumb question. Why do you want to drive an unmodified CFL?

You try to run the jt in the most efficient manner but then you are taking the output and feeding it into an inefficient circuit board on the CFL.

YOU ASKING ME MAGS ... ?

i will use it to bang coax loops .......

; )

w

from an aa

j my 12 cam BOARD WILL LITE BULBS......

the way it is ... use 1.5 vdc a few d cells ......

still love ya!

your the hardest worker of all and shared the most!

MUCH RESPECT!

WHAT IS THE MATH ON 880V... 150 MA? OR EVEN JUST THE WATTS ... ?

110? HOW MANY MA'S?

THANK YOU !

if you go over they will melt down as the TINY WIRES CANT handle so much amps .....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 15, 2010, 05:03:28 PM

@jeanna

Good !

I was just thinking about it , sorry.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on January 15, 2010, 05:19:22 PM

Quote from: jeanna on January 15, 2010, 03:04:55 PM

Now, what I find curious is that you understand immediately why I should see NO voltage after installing the diode and cap. What I do not understand is how you say that but then seem to say that xee2's circuit will do the job.

=======

jeanna

Hi jeanna,
I only refer to XEE2's circuit as it demonstrates how a capacitor can be charged up from the JT to further my explanation of charging and discharging a capacitor and the time constants involved in this process. As I have mentioned the energy dumped into a load will give varring results depending on the nature of the load and it's resistance to the discharged current flow, hence XEE2's Xmas tree bulb lights up as expected. This bulb is of course a very low voltage filament and not a CFL. If your supply is 110v count how many Xmas tree bulbs that made up the set and divide into 110v the answer will be the voltage rating of the filament. try the same experiment with a standard 110v filament lamp. The internal circuits of CFL's are specifically designed for AC 110v 60Hz and use either free running or diac synced high state and low state oscillators, bridged to provide the necessary pre_heat and drive for the CFL. If you Google CFL circuits/schematics you will gain a better understanding of these circuits.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 15, 2010, 05:51:49 PM

Thank you crowclaw,

I was not able to get the little christmas bulb to work either, so, I think I must be doing something wrong.

Unless xee2 is using kooler's circuit he is NOT getting a pulsing voltage of 1kv.
And, since I am, I think I should be able to light the little christmas tree bulb too.

(If xee2 was using kooler's circuit when he made the video, then the playing field is not even, and that is the reason, and not something I am doing wrong.)

Anyway, there is a trigger switch in the camera circuits that allows the capacitance to pop and light the xenon bulb. I think if I can get this kind of configuration, possibly I can get the unmodified cfl to light, and maybe once lit, it will stay that way... more hoping! ;)
btw, I am no expert, but I have studied and stewed about the time constant, and I am with you on this.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 15, 2010, 06:21:25 PM

playing with the cam board ... the thing will suck a 12 vdc lawn tractor dry FAST!

MY MY WHAT A PIG ...

lol

probally work good for the B caps

i hooked 6 up darn near burnt out my transformer ... it is step down 12vdc to 1.2vdc 11oo ma

and .. those things want more .... 600v output with 6 hooked up

never tryed a bulb did the cfl no cap ... does same thing but good and bright still flashes ...

ist!

i just did the same thing with 1 cam unit .. i have blowen 2 power supplyies ...

must be some big fly backs on input side ..... this is odd..

but burnt to 12vdc step downs ...

hummmm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 15, 2010, 06:52:35 PM

for jeanna

EDIT: switch is two wires touched together

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 15, 2010, 08:04:57 PM

: )

UN modded ...

CFLS..

ring or cam .. you decide ....

H

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDSOb1-Mu6M

i have since been able to portect the transformer ... and i added 2 more cfls modded just the bulbs 1 wire and a neon .. 1 wire ...

of course they all flash bright!

: )

2 1 wire cls and 1 neon off it ... plus the videoed bright clf .. the whole mess blinks ...

take the diode away YOU BLOW UP YOUR SOURCE ...

thank you ..

if i go over 1.5 vdc on input .. transistor gets hot ... course .. but it also over rides diode on pos from source .. and blows up source ... 1.5v no problems ... not even over heating it .. i could not let it run more than 30 seconds with out drawing smoke from transformer ... after i added diode.. not hot at all

been running 15 min stright ....

i some how blew the thing up cfl cam whole bit ....

o well

not the first thing i blew up...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 15, 2010, 09:54:35 PM

Quote from: xee2 on January 15, 2010, 06:52:35 PM
for jeanna

EDIT: switch is two wires touched together

Oh how nice of you!
Thank you, see2. I will try that this evening.
jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 15, 2010, 10:59:46 PM

since i blew that up i went back to black and yellow

managed to feed back fly back and get 38vac at .25 a

from my aa....

ist!

thats what the meter reads ...

also charged big cap to 55 vdc ..

9.51khz... ac 37.5 v .25a

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 16, 2010, 12:03:30 AM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on January 15, 2010, 09:54:35 PM
Oh how nice of you!
Thank you, see2. I will try that this evening.
jeanna

Please be careful, there is a lot of energy stored in the capacitors. To test to see if the caps are being charged, you can replace switch and filament bulb with a neon bulb. If the capacitors are being charged to over 100 volts the neon will light. If a fluorescent tube is used instead of the neon, it will light if the capacitors are charged to over 500 volts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 16, 2010, 12:31:35 AM

hey guys and gals
i went into the foxhole to nite and was looking at my 3rd and 4th stage .. the toroid with (700 turns) on it.. so sorry i chicken out..
what scares me.. is it doesn't show any signs of high voltage but if you touch it ..
man .. i'm turning into a pus..
well put it this way it will fire a 13watt unmodded cfl just like you put in a socket and run it constant
its only 300ma at 120v.. but it hurts like its 500v at 20 amps...lol...hahaha
sorry i wussy out on you guys at making a video..
my wife has done warned me..maybe soon, i refuse to not show you guys since all of you have help me .. with your different post
thanks
maybe soon

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 16, 2010, 12:45:24 AM

@ kooler

Quote from: kooler on January 16, 2010, 12:31:35 AM
hey A and gals
i went into the foxhole to nite and was looking at my 3rd and 4th stage .. the toroid with (700 turns) on it.. so sorry i chicken out..
what scares me.. is it doesn't show any A high voltage but if you touch it ..
man .. i'm turning into a pus..
well put it this way it will fire a 13watt unmodded cfl just like you put in a socket and run it constant
its only 300ma at 120v.. but it hurts like its 500v at 20 amps...lol...hahaha
sorry i wussy out on you guys at making a video..
my wife has done warned me..maybe soon, i refuse to not show you guys since all of you have help me .. with your different post
thanks
maybe soon

robbie

Did she make you take out a large life insurance policy?

Please be safe.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 16, 2010, 12:46:35 AM

Quote from: xee2 on January 16, 2010, 12:03:30 AM
@ jeanna

Please be careful, there is a lot of energy stored in the capacitors. To test to see if the caps are being charged, you can replace switch and filament bulb with a neon bulb. If the capacitors are being charged to over 100 volts the neon will light. If a fluorescent tube is used instead of the neon, it will light if the capacitors are charged to over 500 volts.

Well,let me understand this... that must mean you expect significant dampening in the circuit, because right now, I can light a cfl and a neon because there is 1kv, but it is flowing or pulsing and not pausing in a capacitor.
It is that pause that accumulates so much.

How much do you recon it takes to light a filament?

I am wondering if I have a bad batch of 4007's. since I have never-- ever had the expected results. Since I was new, I figured I was putting them in wrong, but now, this zero volts last night makes me wonder. I have some 4001's and maybe I should use them.

I will let you know.
Not now, tomorrow.

thank you,
jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 16, 2010, 01:03:00 AM

@ jeanna

Does the neon or tube light when put across the capacitors with the diodes in series?

Your JT may need adjusting to work into the capacitors.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 16, 2010, 01:03:53 AM

xee2
nah she just hates electricity.. ever since i built a jacobs ladder with a 6 volt battery and she was watching and said if i ever bring something like that in the house.. i was gone.. she also said that she hated my new hobby.. so i said its just small batterys.. it can't hurt no body...haha

jeanna
i have trouble with diodes sometime.. but i stick a bridge in there and boom all the volts i need..
one of the reasons i show a bridge in all my videos.. is because i have trouble with the jt and diodes
so i use a bridge and then a cap
http://www.alliedelec.com/ (http://www.alliedelec.com/)
i bought a bunch of bridges from these people for 39 cent each once
1000v 4 amp
fast ship and billing
it's were i buy my scr's and sidac's

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 16, 2010, 01:16:34 AM

@ jeanna

I agree with kooler - a bridge will sometimes help (and seldom hurts) performance. Also eliminates having the diodes in backwards.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on January 16, 2010, 05:16:12 AM

@ jeanna,
I think you've got the idea regarding capacitor charging. In simple terms it's much like having a barrel full of water (this is your voltage or energy store to work with) with a tap to empty it. As you gradually turn on the tap water starts to flow out of the barrel (this is your stored energy/current passing to your circuit load) lets allow that water to flow over a water wheel connected to a load, only a trickle is coming out so not enough force to do any work. Lets turn the tap full on, so more water flows out with force ( increased current dumbed into load) the wheel turns faster and drives the load from the force of the water. We have a problem though our barrel is almost empty!! So to drive our water wheel with enough force (sustain current flow within our circuit) we need to fill up the barrel quicker with enough water to keep the system running, so work stops while our barrel fills. It's emptying far quicker than the amount of water we need for our wheel to keep on turning. If we reduce the flow ( use less energy / electric current) by turning down the tap our barrel will fill up quicker, but we need to keep it topped up. So by charging up our capacitor (filling the barrel) you can then release all that stored energy very very quickly by discharging into a low resistance load almost instantaneously. The lower the resistance to the flow of current the more current flows through your circuit and the more power you dissipate. The higher the resistance to the flow of current the less current flows around the circuit and the less power you are using ( basic ohms law of course)
So to put all that stored energy to good use the capacitor needs to be almost constantly charging up to replenish what you take out for any circuit that consumes power.
BTW I must commend you on your hard work and dedication. Merv

Re Edited for clarification

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 16, 2010, 09:58:16 AM

last night i did the unmodded cfl .. i used a .1uf cap with cfl and bright it was this was from the cam unit..

i found it to only work 1 WAY!!!

this means i had to drive the cfl from the cam output .. also had to jump diode .. to allow 1 wire operation .. and add cap from other side cfl to neg of driveing battery .. and it got much brighter ..

still crap compaired to the wall ... but when i used 3vdc supply it was VERRY BRIGHT! and my cam or transformer never got hot ..

and all i can get are the junk floros ... so

on to something else ...

i managed to lite a led 45w replacement ALL MOST WALL BRIGHT ... but still not good enough ..

so i dont know what im up to next

MOT LIKELY HOOKED THE STEVIE WAY .... : )

and a 3055 i have hooked up mots that consume tiny amounts and yeild large .. but still kinda junkie

so maybe otto advance ...

w

ON THE BLACK AND YELLOW ... i fired jt on the jt laps .. i the took the flyback and fired the bifillar collector ..

i may add a 12 v supply to collector and pass pos through collector and flick it with the jt ...

see if i can get it to rise in volts.. maybe i can use a MOT on the input on BANDY lol feed flyback through collector then induce / squeeze /accelerate the mot fly back ...

not sure wich path i walk today ...

sick of cfls tho ... i just manage to blow crap up ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 16, 2010, 10:25:19 AM

naw RF AMP TIME BABY!

I HAD TO GET MY COFFEE IN ME ... LOL

now im ripping out comerical jt boards ...

there is a cam transformer in them looks like it s on steroides...
lol

ist

bet it will lite the cfls full bright its about 100 times larger than the cams...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tysb3 on January 16, 2010, 10:41:18 AM

One and one is one ( Bi Coil ) :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uTO2jGZxU0&feature=related

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 16, 2010, 01:02:44 PM

it would be nice if my MATERIALS EVER GET HERE !

I WILL NO LONGER BUY FROM THE US!

just plainly a waste of time ...

then they will nail you customs on top it!

hahahaha

nice free trade eh!

bahhh

o well ....

i remember just remember that ... : )

lmfao

w

thats ok CUZ THE BEST IS MADE IN CANADA!

I NEVER PUT RED AND WHITE MAPLE LEAVES ON MY KICK A$$ TURBINE 4 NUTTIN!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 16, 2010, 01:12:01 PM

to solve the problem with the cams drawing to much ...

use idependent batteries ...

/ supplies! with mutible cams .... add it up if you use 1 battery to supply mutible cams ....

you get the dance going on ... no good ... cancles output!

: )

and blows stuff up ...

: )

H

my expairments prove this reality... i used 3 aaa / per cam transformer ... each gave 300+ v at 7ma!

if i use 2 cams 1 supply ... i can not read ma...

now i may be able to diode them seperatly from source or use THE BRIDGES I PAYED FOR ...

they will probally be destoryed when i get my materials ... knowing how

the ones THAT THINK THERE IN POWER OPERATE ......

LIKE I JUST SAID ...... THE ONES THAT THINK THERE IN CONTROL ....

; )

HAHAHA

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 16, 2010, 01:26:13 PM

@all

I redid one of my TPJT Unit , i have changed the jt coils , now i can light 24 white led in parallel ( bright) from 22 turns secondary.

I will post picture soon.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 16, 2010, 02:11:58 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 16, 2010, 01:26:13 PM
@all

I redid one of my TPJT Unit , i have changed the jt coils , now i can light 24 white led in parallel ( bright) from 22 turns secondary.

I will post picture soon.

SO YOU MAKE AN APEARANCE ...

dodge every 1 of my questions ....

hahaha

so MK1

WHY 45 DEG WINDING ... WHY NOT 90 ?

90 DEG DOES WHAT ? 45 DOES WHAT ? ? ?

ILL TELL YA IF YOU CHOOSE TO DODGE YET ANOTHER QUESTION .....

LOOK AT THE CONTACT MACHINE ...

ELECTRIC /MAGNETIC / ??

HUMMMMMMMMMM

HHHHH

MJ 12 13 H AND THE 4 EAGLES.... = 5

THANK YOU

5 0 12 ... WATEING .... ON CUE!

; )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 16, 2010, 02:20:16 PM

@ist

How good is it a 90 ? on my test it did not really work so?

Second i do not have a scope , so i can't tell.

But you know so much , what could i teach you ?

Edit Btw i do not claim the design of this coil , its a agentgates design.

But i am the one making it work form 1.5 v instead of 30 v .

Read the agentgates tpu topic if you want to learn.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 16, 2010, 03:12:34 PM

IT MAKES ya wonder ....

the diode bridge i had is junk ... blowen ...

hummmm

was it in the window ?

i do wonder ....

w

mk1

when you cross wires what is the effect ... i dont know so much ... lol

i get all this weird crap happin and i can not explain it ... thank you!

i think at 90 deg you get standing electrofied rings ... at distance .... at 45 deg sclar ... / ag

what ya think ... ? agin at some distance

and if you then H them ... they spin for free ..

i may be wrong ... half my shit is blowen up now ... it seams .....

hummmmmmmmm

maybe i blew it playing around ... with crazy rings ... how do i know ... i never blew it cuz i took power from it .... i just went to hook it up and try it ... low volt ... and it apears as junk ... cant read a thing out it ....

so just cuz you dont notice things at your ring does not mean it is not doing things else where ....

i like 90 deg squeeze i saw kool things with it ..

anyhow ... it seams i cant touch anything right now ... it just blows up or i break it or i cant make it run ...

tizz odd!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 16, 2010, 03:26:38 PM

@ist

You have a scope ...

I don't ...

But really read on http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8586.0

Strange things are happening i can't tell without a scope , but i never got those 24 leds that bright from any other toroid a made (on the secondary).

They are not in series but in parallel. regular battery use 4.5v at around at almost half a amp to do the same.

The big ring , yep not sure it will work that is not who your are it supposed to make it , its not a regular toroid ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 16, 2010, 03:40:16 PM

i think when i was playing with the big 45 deg it did things to my electronics with CRYASTAL IN THEM ....

like diodes ...

im not sure yet .. as i never wound a 45 b4 like that and i never blew up electronics like that ..

so something odd apeared to happin ... i never hooked it to the amp .. thats a ways away ... this was all low volt ... but when i fed flyback in .. perhaps ... this is a result..

dont know

and yes there 4 only eagles ... and we wont go there ...

w

who knows ... i know the noramal jt can do magic ... if properly loaded ...

maybe ill go back at that for a bit ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: zhak on January 16, 2010, 03:53:56 PM

Hello friends, I would succeed, a small but thick Ferit teroid working on a very simple scheme: a transistor, resistor, Ferit teroid. Reastat I did not connect, it does not work.

'll Show how to increase the brightness of the lamp?
About how many passes current in this scheme? is dangerous?

Thank you for the fact that you exist on this earth!

Our government is destroying all information in Russian on the internet about alternative!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 16, 2010, 03:59:51 PM

zhak:

Very well done. That looks good and bright.

Nice job.

Bil

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tysb3 on January 16, 2010, 04:08:18 PM

@ zhak,
this is very good forum in russian language :

http://www.matri-x.ru/forum/

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 16, 2010, 05:58:11 PM

@all

http://www.discovercircuits.com/DJ-Circuits/gatextl.htm

description VERY LOW POWER GATED CRYSTAL OSCILLATOR
The circuit gates the output of a continuously operating 32KHz crystal oscillator to the input of a C-MOS buffer when clock pulses are needed. The technique gets around the problem of a slow starting crystal oscillator by keeping the oscillator going and switching on a transistor power stage only as needed. The method keeps the standby power consumption to a very low 1uA when used with a 3v supply.

Freq set by the crystal ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 16, 2010, 06:06:49 PM

Quote from: xee2 on January 16, 2010, 01:03:00 AM
@ jeanna

Does the neon or tube light when put across the capacitors with the diodes in series?

Your JT may need adjusting to work into the capacitors.

I will check this out soon. I was out today and just returned.
I will let you know.
Thanks, bbs.

@Kooler.
I am glad to hear you get your scr's from allelectronics. I must have the right kind then. I bought the only 2 types they had so...

@Crowclaw, My guess is that what I am looking for is the largest cap I can find that will fill and release enough charge quickly enough to keep the light on without a strobe.

I am limited right now with caps of low voltage (except for the 105 and 581 and a couple found in the cfl circuits) so, my first quest is to light it at all, then after that, I will continue to work to light it until it lights so frequently my eyes cannot see the blinks.

====
btw folks, those LoA 20-leds bulbs are awesome.
I think everybody should get 4 or 5.
They come in different white colors and bulb shape and the UNMODIFIED bulbs can get really really bright when there is enough spiky voltage. They can take about 700v maybe more, I have had them at 1k volts and they are OK --- do not do that unless they are unmodified.

OK 3PM time for lunch then to get those caps n diodes going.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 16, 2010, 06:16:32 PM

Quote from: zhak on January 16, 2010, 03:53:56 PM
Hello friends, I would succeed, a small but thick Ferit teroid working on a very simple scheme: a transistor, resistor, Ferit teroid. Reastat I did not connect, it does not work.

Thank you for the fact that you exist on this earth!

Great job, zhak1

If you have 500volts the rheostat will seem to not work. You need about 1kv to see the lights become dim with the rheostat.

QuoteAbout how many passes current in this scheme? is dangerous?

I have never been hurt by the secondary ends, when there is no diode on the secondary.
Sometimes there is a little sting from them, but not so much as a mosquito bite.

Quote
'll Show how to increase the brightness of the lamp?

Increase the number of turns on the toroid, or decrease the resistance at the base of the transistor.

Quote
Our government is destroying all information in Russian on the internet about alternative!

Yours too?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on January 16, 2010, 07:29:02 PM

The one nation that could stand to use a little free energy for heat: it's no surprise that they want to control it.

- - - - -

Has anyone used a trigger coil on their regular JTC OTHER than the ones discussed on the NPN PNP JTC thread?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 16, 2010, 07:54:31 PM

Like jonnydavro and the sec?
Yes, but my hand wound toroids performed better.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 16, 2010, 08:42:42 PM

@all

A picture of my latest tp coil , running at 90 volts and lighting 24 led in parallel

camera set to movie mode no flash , overhead light 80 watt incandescent.

It is running nicely .

Edit i had to show off my latest non energy related project.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 16, 2010, 09:12:02 PM

Well xee2,
Here is what happened.
I added a second 105 cap.
I first just used one diode then added a second. I saw no difference but I may have seen a difference by the addition of the second cap today.

There is a difference with the direction of the placement with respect to the different secondary wires. The wire that shows the upspike on the probe of the scope must be connected to the cap side [3] of the arrangement.

Still nothing from the filament or the unmodified cfl.
However,
Using the neon and the unmodified cfl:
The attachment from the outside end of the diodes[1] to the outside end of the caps [3] is much stronger than from the inside of the diodes [2] to the outside of the caps [3].
I added numbers to your drawing.

The neon glows one carbon rod very bright when connected [1],[3], and when placed [2],[3] the space between the carbon rods glows . This is the same look the neon has when only one wire is touching either secondary.

The cfl glows superbright when the connection points are [1],[3], and, not at all on at the connection points [2],[3].

I believe this shows that I am still not using the right size caps and or diodes for this to work.
What frequency is working for you with these caps sizes?

Thank you,

jeanna

oops forgot drawing!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 16, 2010, 09:44:06 PM

MK:

Nice job! I also like the practice amp as well.

Have you, or anyone else, tried slipping a core into the mix with your TP device? I saw what Lidmotor was able to do when he introduced a core into his air core coil for his Dr. Stiffler replications and it really perked up the circuit. Maybe a block or rod of ferrite might work? Just to see what happens.

Nice going.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 16, 2010, 09:52:51 PM

mk1
whats the amp draw and volts in
just wondering.. seeing if it pulls like my aircoil

good job

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 16, 2010, 10:10:07 PM

Quote from: kooler on January 16, 2010, 09:52:51 PM
mk1
whats the amp draw and volts in
just wondering.. seeing if it pulls like my aircoil

good job

1.36v at .33 amps my meter fuse is broken and only seems to works on the 10 amps setting.

But it would need to be run at 1khz square wave , i am considering making a square wave generator from an op amp at 9 v then run that in a tda2003 i have here 10watt amp then try to pulse that strange thing...

the more you put wires on the primary side the more you get out of the secondary , its the reverse of regular logic.

But it doesn't really high amps , but high voltage would be great.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 16, 2010, 10:17:09 PM

@ kooler

Video comparison of single JT with dual JT. Both circuits are the same except for the JT.

Single JT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63xz1bqVBvw

Dual JT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R89nX5PckkU

The dual JT sparks faster because it is delivering power to the capacitors quicker.

EDIT: the dual JT is only using a single 1.5 volt AA battery.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 16, 2010, 10:35:28 PM

well nice work everyone ...

it was odd i was playing a coil... air core ..

i had to take a nap... humm i got really tired all at once ..

but almost had my tpu jumping off the table

not a JOKE...

lol

i used a huge neo it is verry lould...

peace!

W

warning ... user may encounter fatigue... lol zzzzzzzz

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 16, 2010, 10:36:23 PM

did you have the same results as i did with lower ma draw with the dual jt
or is your dual jt different than mine
i was wondering if we used 9 volts at a very low ma would it be better for filling the caps faster

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 16, 2010, 10:41:39 PM

What's a dual joule thief?

jeanna
also
@xee2,
Earlier, I forgot to post the drawing of yours that I changed. Please look up about 8-10 posts?
Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 16, 2010, 10:46:22 PM

@ kooler

Quote from: kooler on January 16, 2010, 10:36:23 PM
did you have the same results as i did with lower ma draw with the dual jt
or is your dual jt different than mine
i was wondering if we used 9 volts at a very low ma would it be better for filling the caps faster

No. This is two JT in parallel.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 16, 2010, 10:56:40 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on January 16, 2010, 10:41:39 PM
What's a dual joule thief?

jeanna
also
@xee2,
Earlier, I forgot to post the drawing of yours that I changed. Please look up about 8-10 posts?
Thanks

Put an LED across the collector-emitter of the transistor to make sure your JT is oscillating. Is it?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 16, 2010, 10:59:46 PM

i just check my small jt in the other room looks like i will have to cut it off for the nite..
at 9:26 pm it had 1.420 volts and at 10:55 pm it has 1.431 volts..
so to be safe i'll cut it off for tonight.. or do you think it will over charge in 8 hours??
its charging the run battery.. i don't have a second battery in it charging
and i have no ideal why it is charging.. theres no feed back..
if you think it is safe to run all nite i will do and check volts tomorrow

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 16, 2010, 11:05:08 PM

i made a video of my jumping jt tpu diddy

it is a verry intresting toy ..

you can BOUNCE THE FLUX AS I HAVE DONE YEARS BACK WITH MY CAP CHARGER .....

w

this is like a 2 freq unit ... like a pulse motor with a ringing pulse ..

i also had it doing many things ... this was quite neat tho ...

ill add the link as i finish it

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 16, 2010, 11:13:22 PM

@ kooler

I think it is safe to run all night because I do not think you are really adding energy to the battery. Increasing battery voltage does not always mean that the charge in the battery is increasing. Leave a battery that has just been heavily used sit over night and the next morning it will have gained voltage (usually). This is a chemical thing.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 16, 2010, 11:29:41 PM

xee2
i agree with you that i am not putting it back in just thought it was weird..
it been running since i built it at 8:00pm.. so at 9:15pm i thought i am going to check the volts and let it run all nite and then check them regular to see if my meter is lying to me..
so i check again at 9:26 only to see the volts being higher so i wrote the specs down ..
and right now it is still running with 1.434.. at 11:27pm..
weird.. i just didn't want the battery to start leaking all over my table while i sleep
if something was going on

out

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 16, 2010, 11:32:35 PM

heres my video jt tpu cutting RED CARPET...

LMFAO

ist

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gp_TbBeaNlk

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 16, 2010, 11:37:14 PM

@ist

I should have invited your coil at my party last week , nobody felt like dancing.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 16, 2010, 11:37:16 PM

@ kooler

Quote from: kooler on January 16, 2010, 11:29:41 PM
i just didn't want the battery to start leaking all over my table while i sleep

Put a pie pan under it, then you can sleep well.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 16, 2010, 11:39:54 PM

Quote from: xee2 on January 16, 2010, 10:56:40 PM
@ jeanna

Put an LED across the collector-emitter of the transistor to make sure your JT is oscillating. Is it?

yes, the bjtl goes on, and the scope says 1067v from [1] to[3]
Actually the scope says the same 1067 from [2], to [3] also.

j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 16, 2010, 11:45:47 PM

Quote from: xee2 on January 16, 2010, 11:37:16 PM
@ kooler

Put a pie pan under it, then you can sleep well.

lol..
i'll report back tomorrow..
maybe by then it will fall some.. quick question should i see a volt loss in 8 or more hours with me pulling 0.45 ma's
or do i need to let it run for a week or so..
sorry if that sounds dumb.. but i have no schooling in electronics
i didn't know the what a resistor looked like till i started playing with this stuff back in march 2009

thanks for the help
robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 16, 2010, 11:50:40 PM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on January 16, 2010, 11:39:54 PM
yes, the bjtl goes on, and the scope says 1067v from [1] to[3]
Actually the scope says the same 1067 from [2], to [3] also.

j

I have no more suggestions. I built this, kooler built this, lidmotor built this, and it worked for all of us. I do not know what else to suggest. You may be correct in thinking the diodes are bad. You should be able to check that with a 4.5 volt battery (3 AA in series). Put the diode in series with an LED and see if the LED lights with the diode one way but not with it reversed.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 16, 2010, 11:51:00 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 16, 2010, 11:37:14 PM
@ist

I should have invited your coil at my party last week , nobody felt like dancing.

lol i felt like sleeping ...

silly ness

lol

MK1

think i can pull ac easly from it ?

and i already mesured 106vdc and like 30vac ... something like that ... just normal jt tap points

the damm thing is quite annoying ... i must for warn you !

it goes to 5k as curently showen ...

w

here is 1 more tip i found ... with a unit such as this .. if i raise the voltage ... i can get bigger bounce at lower freq...

: )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 16, 2010, 11:58:00 PM

Quote from: kooler on January 16, 2010, 11:45:47 PM
lol..
i'll report back tomorrow..
maybe by then it will fall some.. quick question should i see a volt loss in 8 or more hours with me pulling 0.45 ma's
or do i need to let it run for a week or so..
sorry if that sounds dumb.. but i have no schooling in electronics
i didn't know the what a resistor looked like till i started playing with this stuff back in march 2009

thanks for the help
robbie

AA battery is rated at about 2000 mah. That means it will run for 2000 hours at 1 ma before it drops to 0.8 volts. At 0.45 ma it will take 2000/0.45 = 4444 hours before it drops to 0.8 volts. I think you have a long wait ahead.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 17, 2010, 12:04:43 AM

@ ist

Your jumping coil is interesting. Is there a conductive surface under it? Normally, there needs to be something magnetic for the coil to push against before it will move. Thanks for posting video.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 17, 2010, 12:15:44 AM

Quote from: xee2 on January 16, 2010, 11:50:40 PM
@ jeanna

I have no more suggestions. I built this, kooler built this, lidmotor built this, and it worked for all of us. I do not know what else to suggest. You may be correct in thinking the diodes are bad. You should be able to check that with a 4.5 volt battery (3 AA in series). Put the diode in series with an LED and see if the LED lights with the diode one way but not with it reversed.

When you say you and kooler and lidmotor, it makes me think you are talking about a different circuit, like the one with 2 transistors or the one with the scr/triac. I do not remember lidmotor lighting a filament with a plain jt with secondary.

I will look for it.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 17, 2010, 12:18:48 AM

Quote from: xee2 on January 17, 2010, 12:04:43 AM
@ ist

Your jumping coil is interesting. Is there a conductive surface under it? Normally, there needs to be something magnetic for the coil to push against before it will move. Thanks for posting video.

thank you xee2

nope wood plastic ... what ever ... it is the angle ... ; )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twyYIPhSa3U

makes me think this ....

caped Wonder I WONDER HOW THAT WORKS .... LOL

NOW IM LOOKING FOR THE NEXT ONE TO SHOW YOU WHAT I HAVE BUILT

THANKS DAD!

I LOVE YOU !

H

i cant find the superman sceen ... lol

but it is clear i built the danceing hoops ...

just b4 dad locked em up !

thank you !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 17, 2010, 12:26:11 AM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on January 17, 2010, 12:15:44 AM
When you say you and kooler and lidmotor, it makes me think you are talking about a different circuit, like the one with 2 transistors or the one with the scr/triac. I do not remember lidmotor lighting a filament with a plain jt with secondary.

I will look for it.

jeanna

I meant we all charged capacitors with the JT. For some reason you do not seem to be able to do that.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 17, 2010, 12:36:09 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 17, 2010, 12:18:48 AM

THANKS DAD!

I LOVE YOU !

H

thank you !

your welcome
and i love you too SON..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 17, 2010, 12:53:20 AM

there are my hoops

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80wgOtVEjZk&feature=related

thank you!

H

J' sun!

: )

now k if we can just get your wife to understand what you have done !

: )

camera on !

! love you too ...

KOOLER ... YOU NEED A GARNET MY SUN/FATHER... : ) GO GET 1

you see there is LEGAND of the UNCOVERED CAT! .... LOL I THINK ITS .. A LEO ... : )

{C}AS IN LOOK {H} 64 777 {R}A W {IS} 81577 BABY! {T}ESLA

THATS ME BABY! : )

and guess what .... im no diffrent than anyone of you!

; )

W TO KNOW ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 17, 2010, 02:34:32 AM

i got it danceing on 1.5vdc and pumping 25vac ...

regards...

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: zhak on January 17, 2010, 03:00:19 AM

Quote from: tysb3 on January 16, 2010, 04:08:18 PM
@ zhak,
this is very good forum in russian language :

http://www.matri-x.ru/forum/

I know about this forum! but the admin has its benefits, my posts were removed when I wrote the truth!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on January 17, 2010, 03:42:41 AM

Quote from: jeanna on January 17, 2010, 12:15:44 AM
When you say you and kooler and lidmotor, it makes me think you are talking about a different circuit, like the one with 2 transistors or the one with the scr/triac. I do not remember lidmotor lighting a filament with a plain jt with secondary.

I will look for it.

jeanna

Hi jeanna,
At points (1), (3) you have high voltage positive pulses... the CFL mercury vapour is excited and ionises the gas. At points (2),(3) you have smoothed out these pulses by the filtering action of the capacitors, you thus have a steady state high DC voltage at this point, which will quickly discharge if you connect a filament lamp and the flash you see is the capacitors energy discharging through the filament. The larger the capacitance value the longer it will take to charge, but obviously the more energy it retains. (remember the barrel of water example im my reply to you) The CFL will not light though... because the pulsed output is now steady state filtered DC. If you rectify an AC signal for example you have a series of positive going DC half wave pulses, next add a capacitor and you smooth out those pulses to leave a steady DC voltage output. Same applies with this circuit, fine for charging capacitors and then discharging them at high voltage! but not for your modified CFL because you have smoothed out the pulses too straight DC.
Depending on the capacitors value when first connected to you JT, the initial load presented will be of a low resistance until the capacitor takes on some charge,this momentarily may effect the tuning etc until the circuit recovers. Hope this helps. Merv

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on January 17, 2010, 04:01:13 AM

@xee2,

The problem using a double JT like you have done is that the output value relies on all elements of each circuit being very closely matched, for... if either circuits output rises all falls to the value of the diodes forward voltage drops, then only one output will be present and not two!!! worth noting.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 17, 2010, 04:04:38 AM

up and comeing ET SPECIAL ...

BROADWAY RA! BANGS THE DRUM!

: )

JUST ANOTHER AILEN ON BROADWAY ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsYiLjDjbpc

REGARDS !

RA!

just love the drum roll at the end and then the 1.5v oncore ... : )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 17, 2010, 07:07:50 AM

@ crowclaw

Quote from: crowclaw on January 17, 2010, 04:01:13 AM
@xee2,

The problem using a double JT like you have done is that the output value relies on all elements of each circuit being very closely matched, for... if either circuits output rises all falls to the value of the diodes forward voltage drops, then only one output will be present and not two!!! worth noting.

Not true. Think about it. Both circuits feed capacitor independently. They do not need to be the same. Each stops adding energy when the capacitor charges to its pickup coil voltage, which never happens since the capacitors are automatically discharged at a voltage below output voltage of either pickup coil. The videos show the added power of the second JT.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 17, 2010, 07:56:56 AM

Dual Joule thief photo.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 17, 2010, 11:59:27 AM

@ jeanna

This is video of filament bulb using the dual JT with koolers circuit and 0.11 uF capacitance. With the dual JT the bulb is bright and there is no visable blinking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_oakwGOTr0

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 17, 2010, 12:35:09 PM

I GUESS

im winding a dubble banger ... today pnp npn 1 ring ... 4 coils for now!

: )

H

: )

i guess ill go H D .. lol HI Q DARLENTION... LOL

then we could go dubble switch it .... : ) that would give ac 25v x 2 then dubble x 1000 for the HAG!

HAG = H ANTI GRAVITY

YOU KNOW IT BABY!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 17, 2010, 01:21:44 PM

xee2
well it is still climbing.. weird huh..
from 1.420v to 1.444
it's keep doing this i may go longer than 4444 hours
i'll post a diagram.. because it makes the led a bit brighter doing this.. (the whole reason i done it).
and have noticed the rise of volts while running

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 17, 2010, 02:10:17 PM

HEY

KOOLER GREAT WORK! XEE2 : )

now may i ask a question .... lol

@MK1

WHY DO MY TPUS HAVE A SLIGHT VIBRATION ...

AND WHY DID SM USE CORK ...

WINDOW FOAM ... LOL IN THE SUPERMAN 17 ...

: )

!!!!!

?

H

SOME OF MY RINGS SOUND A BIT LIKE A WOOD PECKER ... ! ; )

i just managed to get a much higher speed wobble from the 1.5 v input .. lol by moveing the magnet a tiny bit ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on January 17, 2010, 02:10:28 PM

Quote from: xee2 on January 17, 2010, 07:07:50 AM
@ crowclaw

Not true. Think about it. Both circuits feed capacitor independently. They do not need to be the same. Each stops adding energy when the capacitor charges to its pickup coil voltage, which never happens since the capacitors are automatically discharged at a voltage below output voltage of either pickup coil. The videos show the added power of the second JT.

Xee2,

If you have two circuits providing an output into a load through series diodes, they will both give a contribution in output into that load. (as per your figures). However should the circuits be unmatched to make a large enough difference in voltage output then whichever is the lowest will be effectively shut off. This is the same principle of working for many standby battery back up systems that take over when the line voltage dips or fails altogether. The point I am making here is_ should anybody replicate your circuits, too make shure the circuits are identical in make up, component values etc. as you have done inorder to get maximum effecientcy. Ive designed enough similar circuits over the years. Kind Regards

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 17, 2010, 02:21:26 PM

crowclaw
all that is going on is that there is double current coming from the battery and the output has double the current
in my test from when xee2 first built this a couple of weeks ago or sometime was..
the voltage was the same ..
give or take a bit..
but the output current was doubled..
yes i build and test most things i see in the jt part of the forum..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 17, 2010, 02:39:56 PM

i mesured the freq at wobble at 1.5 vdc the thing has ran 1 H with out much notice in diffrence to speed

its hanging out round .. 420Hz and gradually dropping ... lmfao

ist!

: )

waite a min .... lol NOW ITS CLIMBING ... LOL WOBBLEING AT ROUND 464HZ NOW : )

it has a wobble ... : )

NUTTER RA HA! lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 17, 2010, 02:49:24 PM

@ crowclaw

I am not trying to gang up on you, but kooler has it correct. The purpose is to deliver more current to the capacitors so that they charge up quicker.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 17, 2010, 02:53:43 PM

course i can keep going on the tp ou ... lol

lIke the RING STACK ...

CONNECTED WITH NEOS.... between the layers split 4 way ... lol

: )

sure i think i achived this in the VERRY FIRST TPU I EVER WOUND ...

THANK YOU!

W

BTW I USED 4 RINGS SPLIT IN 4 ..... ON ZINK COATED IRON WIRE ... : )

what can i say .....

I HAVE LIVED IT! AND SHARED IT

THE DREAM!

AND MANY THANKS TO THE TEAM!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on January 17, 2010, 03:32:00 PM

Quote from: xee2 on January 17, 2010, 02:49:24 PM
@ crowclaw

I am not trying to gang up on you, but kooler has it correct. The purpose is to deliver more current to the capacitors so that they charge up quicker.

OK Guys,

I'm not in dispute with what you are doing, and yes you will charge the caps up quicker, you could have quad JT's and charge quicker still. All I have said is that to get maximum effecientcy for anyone wishing to replicate the circuit try and build your circuits identical as you have done.

I realise you have two independant outputs from two seperate JT's but they still share common connections at their output points. Regards

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 17, 2010, 04:39:14 PM

Someone posted this link in another topic. It looks like a nice bench top scope for about $280.00 US.

http://www.saelig.com/PSBEB100/PSSA002.htm (http://www.saelig.com/PSBEB100/PSSA002.htm)

I thought some here might be interested.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 17, 2010, 05:42:00 PM

it has been running for hours now .... i have been monitoring the hz

it has wobbled up to 525 hz... and continues to clime up

IT APEARS TO WOBBLE WITH GAIN ... WITH TUNEING ALONE ...

NO CAPTURE CAP EMPLOYED AS OF YET ... WHEN I DO IT RUNS

WITH GAIN TO SELF DESTRUCTION ... AKA RUNAWAY ...

PEACE

W

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 17, 2010, 05:55:58 PM

ist
how are the wires connected from the air core to the jt output
if you don't mind me asking

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 17, 2010, 07:05:00 PM

Quote from: kooler on January 17, 2010, 05:55:58 PM
ist
how are the wires connected from the air core to the jt output
if you don't mind me asking

KIDS ARE ALL ASLEEP SO I KEEP IT KINDA LOW ....

THANK GOD IM A COUNTRY BOY!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqb0em452CM

W

i will draw chicken scratches... lol

wobble is up to 600HZ...

if life is a game of poker ... i just played a ROYAL FLUSH! .... and i got 2 wild jokers in my back pocket!

; )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 17, 2010, 07:26:28 PM

ist
draw me something.. i like stick people too..

@all
something to try..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 17, 2010, 07:35:56 PM

i have something else i can employ for the TINY 404 ... LOL

it is a flasher cap full driver ... to a 12vdc flasher work light ...

basically what happins in this device in this method showen ..

is this i fire up the wobbler 404 and i use the rectified out in a cap to push to a 12vdc cap full flasher .. it dumps to the 12 v strobe ... it fires a mot ... careful.....

be 4 warned! it is a blast ... i have all laying round ....

PERHAPS I SET UP TABLE #4 AND DRAGG IN SOME MORE ROUND TABLES ....

?

ist!

i can most likely fit 8 more round tables in here .....

can i juggle all things at once ? yikes ... i have a well proven track record !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 17, 2010, 07:54:40 PM

Quote from: kooler on January 17, 2010, 07:26:28 PM

@all
something to try..

Kooler,
Is this the one that is reverse charging the battery?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 17, 2010, 08:11:37 PM

jeanna
it does seem to charge..
i pulled one battery off 3 hours ago.. and the volts are still up and i put a small load on it and the volts only fall about 0.021 and come right back up as soon as i pull the load off
so i put another battery on this thing and checking it now to see if it will recharge it
.. it seems to go alot faster once i pull out the led.. of course
i just playing right now..
but making it this way does help lite the led brighter

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 17, 2010, 08:20:46 PM

So, what happens with a 7-10 turn secondary?
A secondary frequently has nothing to do with the amps draw from the battery, and often lowers it.
The problem is sometimes it puts out a light that is in the place of your light, and if it does this, then reverse it if possible.
If you can find the direction for a secondary light that does not turn off the primary light, then you can probably remove the primary light and the battery might recharge...(and you will still have a light, and with more turns it will be full bright.)
This makes me wonder, if the C-E is interrupted by a battery, will the battery recharge?
I think this is what gadget was doing, but he said a battery wouldn't recharge enough. hmm

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 17, 2010, 08:48:04 PM

i had no luck with a secondary.. it always kill my primary circuit .. cutting off the led. and pulling more ma's from the battery,
so i just discarded it

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 17, 2010, 09:03:26 PM

K AND J

watch mk3 coil video ... i demo this ....

j you need a crystal diode .... to smack back into a battery and a super cap first

been there done it made the video shared it ...

its in my detector detector ... lol

: )

w

K you need the RA winded coil mk1 coil ... SO YOU GRAB THE HIDDEN SOUTH LOL OR PERHAPS THE HIDDEN NORTH YOU ALL FORGOT BOUT......

what ya tink

NUTTER RA HA !

then ya can go split rail dc ... maybe .... ?

lol

ya see if MK1 would speak up i wouldnt need to do all the yapping........

some day 1 day .....
eh?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 17, 2010, 09:16:14 PM

Quote from: kooler on January 17, 2010, 08:48:04 PM
i had no luck with a secondary.. it always kill my primary circuit .. cutting off the led. and pulling more ma's from the battery,
so i just discarded it

It often does interfere with the basic led, but when it does reversing the direction of the led is usually enough.

One year ago every one of us found that the secondary made the amps draw go down.
I think un-discarding it might be another option.

It is a different circuit. I do not believe any of us eliminated the base resistor since that was the dial that gave us pulse control, and the cap in parallel with the base resistor would reduce the amps draw to minimal amounts and still allow awesome amounts of lights to be lit on that secondary with no additional draw per light.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 17, 2010, 09:23:52 PM

J

use a mot ... stevie way!

thank you ...

i see flyback sparks ...

at pos with an aa ... and there are no visual sparks on the on cycle ..

HOPE THAT SAYS SOMETHING ....

; )

W

if the mot aint enough to ELIMINATE THE RESISTOR ALL TOGATHER AND YOU WANT MORE FLY BACK ...

simply add more high self inductance winds be it a transformer secondary another mot whatever ... lol

this then goes CASCADE AMP

yet another thing i designed years ago~

and if done proper i can make a tesla transformer ... self running

with mutible tap points ...

i knew you would love me public!

: )

you see this brings up a song ....

jolene the best vv i ever seen .... : ) this boy knows better : ) 1 love baby!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AtqQiEFEaE&feature=rec-r2-2r-4-HM

hey ~if your gonna play in texes you gotta have a fiddle and a band!~

: )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWlMEa811EE&feature=related

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 17, 2010, 09:45:51 PM

@ kooler

Quote from: kooler on January 17, 2010, 07:26:28 PM
something to try..

I would think that it would work better if the RK44 emitter resistor was replaced with a diode. I think you will trap more energy in the LED capacitor that way. Just an idea.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 17, 2010, 09:56:55 PM

xee2
i got it in a grab box from goldmine

http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16730 (http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16730)

low forward voltage

http://www.datasheetarchive.com/pdf/Datasheet-069/DSA00307182.pdf (http://www.datasheetarchive.com/pdf/Datasheet-069/DSA00307182.pdf)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 17, 2010, 10:10:54 PM

I looked it up earlier.
RK44 is a diode

[ RK 44 Sanken Electric Schottky Barrier Diodes]

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 17, 2010, 10:17:56 PM

I found an interesting circuit this afternoon. Not sure what it does, but sure looks like fun. :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 17, 2010, 10:19:31 PM

hmmm
maybe a swinging party.. or.. maybe
a man train.. lol..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 17, 2010, 10:30:15 PM

@ kooler

Quote from: kooler on January 17, 2010, 09:56:55 PM
i got it in a grab box from goldmine

0.17 forward drop, nice diode.

Is your toroid 3 base turns and 5 collector turns?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on January 17, 2010, 10:34:08 PM

Looks like a reproductive circuit, but only one of them is getting any real action.

Now, if they were to light up, that would be a different story!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 17, 2010, 10:43:13 PM

lol

maggs

hehe

perhaps i shall explain something here ... so this is strightened out from the start ok

you have a left and right hand same with your brain so there for you have male and female .. x2

thank you

1205 baby!

H

hope this now explains jolene song by ws ... clearly a message ... lol

just because your male ... or female in this life .... does not mean you were not oppsite in the past ...

it is so verry KOOL HOW IT ACTUALLY WORKS...

: )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 17, 2010, 10:55:08 PM

xee2
correct you are sir
3-base 5-collector

i went and run another battery down pulling 345ma out for 20 seconds and now i am trying to see if it will charge or if i am fooling my self

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 17, 2010, 11:03:55 PM

Quote from: kooler on January 17, 2010, 10:55:08 PM
xee2
correct you are sir
3-base 5-collector

i went and run another battery down pulling 345ma out for 20 seconds and now i am trying to see if it will charge or if i am fooling my self

k

you must load down it to draw from it ..

or your fooling your self ... indeed!

lol

w

as i have seen you load it down big time it restors bigtime ......

nuf from me for half a day ....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 17, 2010, 11:18:51 PM

1 more update for today ... i had the 404 running all day ... and no im not sleeply.... not at all it has RAN WITH OUT FAIL... and with out noticeable side effects

regards

w

kooler both coils wound same dirrection ... jt style hookup ...

no worrie im on the other winding methods ... but i will do next 2 l and 2 r stacked ... 1 npn 1 pnp

maybe leave room for extra tuned collectors for air core resonant feedback ...

peace!

yep i got to pull out the rounds ... and set up table #5

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 17, 2010, 11:26:18 PM

@all

Could anyone tell me what happens to the jt regular output when you put a resistor load on it , or even close the secondary (closed circuit) , Would the voltage go down between the collector and battery negative rail , or stay the same or up.

Anyone.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 17, 2010, 11:37:56 PM

well mk1 on my wobblie one ... it quit wobbling when i put my meter to read amps ... but did not quit jt operation ......

but its not a normal coil ...

altho tap points were normal ...

it sipmly apeared to stay in a raised location and im guessing pull from the mag ...

w

not a normal situation ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 17, 2010, 11:42:18 PM

I am confused because on my tp unit , i can't shot circuit the secondary , and the jt side is still fine , put i make 2 secondary one on a white led (2 turns)
And a red led (4 turns) , both light , and the collector and negative rail doesn't even flinch.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 17, 2010, 11:55:22 PM

Quote from: MrMag on January 17, 2010, 10:17:56 PM
I found an interesting circuit this afternoon. Not sure what it does, but sure looks like fun. :)

I suspect this is a homo polar based circuit. All the connectors appear to be male.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 18, 2010, 12:07:36 AM

bill
i think you are correct (homopolar generator)

mk1
in all the aircore coil i made.. i had the same results..
but.. .. .. i never could get my ma's draw below 100 or more ma's
and in my test the more you try to load it the more it pulled from the battery..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 18, 2010, 12:15:37 AM

key is to use it and collect it then send it to recharge battery thuss loseing verry little and running with gain ...

the best way to do so is a pulse motor to understand how and what is hapining ...

my experience ...

if it works 1 way it will work the other thuss unity...

ist!

look at it like this god made man and woman male and female ... not male and male ....

father and son mother and daughter ... but IT FLIPS ... LOL

and they were so kind to allow you to have a human experiance what ever be your choise ...

all roads lead to THE ONE ANSWER ...

ballance unity ... oneness ... how you get there are based upon karma ... all have lived each others experiences at 1 point or another through out there incarnations on earth ...

regardless your of this incarnation ... this time ... see ...

nuf bout that stuff ...

i try to help people to understand ... it is no easy riddle ... and no easy road to seccuess!

once learned and understood ... all roads lead HOME!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 18, 2010, 12:26:21 AM

That circuit of Mr Maggs. Just needs one thing to get it to light up and that of course is a spark. Then after that it will seek resonance at 7.3hz. That is the human coax cable frequency rating. RU GETTINGENOUGH I believe. That is why thes sound hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm in proper geometirc relationship to the emitter will result in a sudden spike to motor coils and subsequent collapse in the magnetic field within the mass of the emitter.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 18, 2010, 12:35:47 AM

@all

Now i got one led in the regular jt spot , and 24 in parallel one the secondary.

Light on the secondary (24 led) works a .01 amp

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 18, 2010, 12:51:33 AM

@ mk1

if i was to put my vibrator coil jt inside another coil think the flux will induce in the collector fence ..?

i may try it ...

like if i was to make many many turns on an plastic core ring .. vertical think i could collect a bit from induction ..

ist

perhaps it will bring a few amps with it ....

what do you think

nice coils btw !

dont for get we can plunk in a feedback tuned coil or 2 depending if we build it compleate or not ...

simply vibratory induction generator no moveing parts only flux bounce ...

magic with the WMM

H

btw my tiny 404 never skipped a beat yet ....

still running fine ...

see i can change the amount of swing i allow my device to move easly ...

just make a few cork stoppers ... lol

by induction principales all that is required .. is that a magnetic feild must cut copper ... and if i feed loadded fly back throught the outter fence ... it gets a boost lol

user may encounter slight vibration .. and gyro effects ... lol

out put is PURE AC WITH DC RIPPEL ... LOL

well

cuz pos and neg magnets .. changeing ... about 1 wire ... many many thousand times a second.. plus the rectified flyback ...

welcome to TESLA ... 2 FOR THE PRICE OF 1 BUT 1 NEVER GETS USED ONLY RECYCLED ! LOL

MAGIC

I WOULD THEN RECTIFY TO DC .. AND GET RID OF THE HIGH FREQ .... so it can be uitilized!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 18, 2010, 01:12:57 AM

deleted - this editor is giving me problems

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 18, 2010, 01:16:14 AM

@xee

thanks That is what i tough , i was surprised when my last coil did not lower the pulse.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 18, 2010, 01:19:15 AM

@ Mk1

Quote from: Mk1 on January 17, 2010, 11:26:18 PM
@all

Could anyone tell me what happens to the jt regular output when you put a resistor load on it , or even close the secondary (closed circuit) , Would the voltage go down between the collector and battery negative rail , or stay the same or up.

Anyone.

Try it. I think shorting secondary will reduce collector pulse voltage.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 18, 2010, 01:28:59 AM

@ Mk1

Quote from: Mk1 on January 17, 2010, 11:42:18 PM
I am confused because on my tp unit , i can't shot circuit the secondary , and the jt side is still fine , put i make 2 secondary one on a white led (2 turns)
And a red led (4 turns) , both light , and the collector and negative rail doesn't even flinch.

Well, 2 turns and 4 turns are not much inductance. How many turns are on the collector coil? Usually the pickup coil has a lot more turns than the collector coil.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 18, 2010, 01:36:43 AM

Quote from: xee2 on January 18, 2010, 01:28:59 AM
@ Mk1

Well, 2 turns and 4 turns are not much inductance. How many turns are on the collector coil? Usually the pickup coil has a lot more turns than the collector coil.

Ok What i did is make a bigger one 22 turns 18 gauge , and closed the secondary got 33 volt pulses for 39 volts open. It dose lower it a bit.

Collector 36 turns 24 gauge.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 18, 2010, 02:01:24 AM

@ Mk1

As I recall, all of the open pickup coils do not absorb any energy. But any pickup coil that has a load will take energy away from the other coils.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 18, 2010, 02:05:20 AM

Quote from: xee2 on January 18, 2010, 02:01:24 AM
@ Mk1

As I recall, all of the open pickup coils do not absorb any energy. But any pickup coil that has a load will take energy away from the other coils.

Ok Thanks , Dose a closed secondary equals to a load .

A can put pretty much any resistor on it , the jt pulse barely changes .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 18, 2010, 02:17:10 AM

i just designed the worlds first high power tesla wirelss transmitter ...

you bet it uses a jt ... 2 panckkes .. and many feroite transformers or rods .. as colpasers... and there sent out the tower...

did i build it no ...

will it work yes!

: )

me

i think he wrote some where 0 loss when mass tuned ....

is this correct xee2?

: )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 18, 2010, 03:09:54 AM

@all

I just took a dc motor from a tape deck , and connected it to the battery it tuned slowly at 1.3 volt but , it also runs i bit faster on the rectified secondary. The motor is stronger on the battery.

I also found small light bulb , it also light on the secondary directly one the bridge , lights about the same as direct on the battery .

I don't know if those are regular things , before i forget i also put a electrolytic cap 1000mf on collector to negative rail , it charged leds on the secondary not affected.

Is this good ? should i make pictures ?

Edit it light from the pickup coil no bridge even brighter then direct on the battery , look the led it also working on the collector /- of the jt.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 18, 2010, 06:35:02 AM

@ Mk1

Quote from: Mk1 on January 18, 2010, 03:09:54 AM
I also found small A , it also light on the secondary directly one the bridge , lights about the same as direct on the battery .

I do not know of any simple JT that will light a filament bulb directly from the pickup coil with only a bridge. But I am confused. A filament bulb should light with AC or DC so you should not need to rectify the pickup coil output to light the bulb.

Can you post a diagram of what your circuit is? If you are using a 1.5 volt AA for power it would seem that you are getting much higher efficiency than a regular JT.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 18, 2010, 06:43:34 AM

@ ist

Quote from: innovation_station on January 18, 2010, 02:17:10 AM
i think he wrote some where 0 loss when mass tuned ....

is this correct xee2?

I am not sure. Jeanna is the Tesla writings expert.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 18, 2010, 06:57:18 AM

Quote from: xee2 on January 18, 2010, 06:35:02 AM
@ Mk1

I do not know of any simple JT that will light a filament bulb directly from the pickup coil with only a bridge. But I am confused. A filament bulb should light with AC or DC so you should not need to rectify the pickup coil output to light the bulb.

Can you post a diagram of what your circuit is? If you are using a 1.5 volt AA for power it would seem that you are getting much higher efficiency than a regular JT.

You are right about not needing a bridge , it lights better without .

The circuit is a regular jt circuit it seems to work pretty much any thing for resistor , i tested from 2 k to 0 .

Its all in the coil... And yes AA .

Mark

I could not go to bed , its 7 am here :D , i have so much fun.

This is to give an idea of the coil , Drawing are made by Broli i think.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 18, 2010, 10:03:08 AM

Hello all,

Hmm nice drawings above MK1, I like the wires wound around the outside of the toroid, try them on the inside and the top and bottom sides as well.
---------------------

Just been fiddling around with an idea I have had for awhile now.
Last week I discussed this with Bill on Skype and he suggested I post it here on the Joule Thief topic.

Then trying to do this, I posted on the wrong forum as Jeanna so kindly pointed out to me, tankyou. :-[

OK, I have been thinking how to make the "front" section of the toroid windings tunable, and I came up with this idea.
I have made this toroid and took photos along the way, it consists of circuits also.

One thing has been confusing me for quite a while and that is it seems we have moved away from the bifilar windings, I may be wrong, but I need to clear this up in my own mind, perhaps someone could let me know if this is the case.

Right, it seems we now wind several turns of copper wire on a toroid, then place several more turns further on, but right next to the first lot.

To make this adjustable primary you will need 2 of rotary switches, single pole multiple throws, or having 6 or 7 contacts in a circle, see photos.

You will need rainbow ribbon cable or several short lengths of insulated wire.

1 Toroid, who cares what type lol, just as long as you can wind it.
We need to make "taps" on every single turn that is on the primary windings, ha ha, its fun fun fun time as yogi bear says.

Here's the procedure.

Grab 6 feet of copper wire, anchor one end about 6" of fly end free, anchor it down with tape etc.
Feed the 1st turn over and down and back under the toroid, until it appears.
make the length of the protruding wire about 4" long, fold the wire back along itself and twist it tight until it is firm against the toroid outside side surface.
See the photos

Now its turn 2, do the same again, then fold the wire back on itself, twist the wire for firmness and do turn 3, turn 4, turn 5, turn 6 and turn 7.

Turn 7, make this a shorter loop, this is where the transistor Base connects to it.

Make turn 8, turn 9, turn 10, turn 11, turn 12, turn 13 and turn 14.

The end of turn 14 goes to the transistors Collector.
----------------------------

Now heat up your soldering iron, to hot hot, so you can burn off the insulation and solder the copper wire, or just scrape off the insulation.
Tin all the loops along the outside of the toroid, about 1/2" away from the toroid.

Cut off the excess wire loops, but leave the 7th wire loop as it is.

Cut 2 x 6 inch lengths of ribbon cable or several 6" lengths of small insulated wire and solder them to each "tinned" wire loop.

Now grab a rotary switch, and solder each wire (1 to 6) coming off the toroid in turn to the correct position on the rotary switch.
Do the same with the 2nd lot of wires, but don't do no 7 loop. solder the 2nd rotary switch in a similar fashion to the first switch.

Grab a single wire, and solder it to the 7th loop, (cut off the loop), this flying wire end goes to the transistor base

The other fly ends, left and right ones, left goes to (+) and the other goes to the transistor Collector.
------------------------

That's it folks, now you can have a multy turn adjustable JT, you can adjust up and down at many positions to see which turns are suitable for different voltages etc etc.
-------------------
If you have 2 x 7 position switches, that gives you about 98 different possibilities.
--------------------

Another scenario is, and I haven't tried this but it will work, and that is creating loops at half turns, a loop on the outside of the toroid and a lop on the inside of the toroid, so you could refine the output by 100% even more. Say you needed a 1.5 turn, then you could achieve it this way, or perhaps a 2.5 turn etc etc.

jim

Now to see if this will post OK, its well after midnight, hopefully I have a little more speed on my internet sat setup.
Photos will follow if this is the case

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 18, 2010, 10:17:56 AM

mk1

if you put a compes near it does it rotate ... and your coil probally flys too fast to see rotation ...

but your collector will read high freq... cuz the laps ... you have a freq convertor ..

1 tick makes many laps .. i did it this way feroite and in reverse ... 1 lap and mutible collector laps ..

i still think dc is the way to go ...

only because it can be used easly with what is currently in use ... high freq is not bad at all unrectified it does amazing things ... but if your devices dont linke hv hf then problems arize ...

none the less high freq is a good way to not get hurt ..

did you try sheet alum inside it ?

alum will slow down the freq and increase amps ... if properly rectified!

got an old tuber?

ist!

yes 0 losses are encoured through resonant mass tuneing ... and if tuned right in you can have it run with gain alone ...

if you use a higher volt cap ... nonpolar on the input /fly back .. it compounds and releases ...

i found mechanical switches to be best to see this effect .. b4 cap big flame in reed ... after cap ... tiny flame ... where did it go ... the cap .... : )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on January 18, 2010, 10:29:50 AM

Sorry all,
I tried to upload a JPG and it wouldn't work.
In the morning activ8me sattlite is going to hear my tonsills rattling on the fone, stuff em, Im knobbled to 2 k speed. >:(
grrrr

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 18, 2010, 10:34:54 AM

jim

how ya been!

remember those weird tube things ....

i found in the old rf amps ...

what are they agin .... ?

like a surge overload ... kick thing ?

i see you come on i get the urge to digg em out!

why sir ?

: )

missed ya!

w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HA9ffaWRsn8&feature=related

4 big jim!

love you!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 18, 2010, 11:40:30 AM

since im cleaning up and rearranging my toys ...

just gumpin as always ... i trip on the l8test gr8est thing ... lol quite litterly ..

look my text art

+ -
}{l l}{ coil battery coil ..... when ya gonna ringgggg it ....

lol

: )

the YOU ALL KNOW WHO ...

mk1 we can then go piss barttery or clay pot and lemon juice ...

: )

even better baked patato : )

mags ?

play me a song mr re cord man! lol

you bet ya ...

the counting crows ... MR JONES AND ME!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oqAU5VxFWs

WE ALL WANT TO BE BIG BIG STARS DONT KNOW WHY.....DONT KNOW HAVE A WAY....

: )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 18, 2010, 01:23:49 PM

Here are the photos Jim was having trouble posting due to his rip-off sat. system:

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 18, 2010, 01:25:02 PM

Two more photos from Jim:

(See his above posts for explanations)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 18, 2010, 01:30:36 PM

I think Jim's idea is a good one. This switch would allow us to experiment with various turns on the base coil and various turns on the collector coil without re-winding or un-winding the toroid. What I see from this would be to be able to change multiple parameters at a time to see perhaps something we might miss doing it one at a time.

In other words, when I was experimenting with my Jeanna Light coil, I had 3 turns on the base but I started out with 5. I removed a turn at a time until I got it "the best". But, at that time, I also had 13 turns on the collector coil. Once I got my base down to 3 then I started removing turns from the collector coil.

With Jim's idea, I could have tried (on the base) 5, 4,3,2,1 all with the 13 on my collector coil but, I could have tried 13,12,11,10,9, in combination with my 5,4,3,2, etc at the same time.

Anyway, direct any and all questions you may have to Jim as this is his idea.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 18, 2010, 01:59:49 PM

I offer no questions!

i call up on jim to explain fully ...

i FULLY COMPRHEND THIS ... SIMPLY GENIUS!

I LOVE YOU EVEN MORE

: )

if jim does not care to explain in the best of his knowalage ... ill fire only after his choise ...

william

been a long december EH?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1D5PtyrewSs&NR=1

i do have a question ... have you ever opened it right up ... all channels and fired it self oscolation ac ....

; )

: )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 18, 2010, 02:36:28 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 18, 2010, 06:57:18 AM
You are right about not needing a bridge , it lights better without .

The circuit is a regular jt circuit it seems to work pretty much any thing for resistor , i tested from 2 k to 0 .

These are my data for shorting the secondary with various components.

battery level =1.21v
measured across C-E junction
no secondary short of anything = 1.18v
1- straight short =0.96v
2-cfl =1.15v
3- 47r =1.03v
4- 147r = 1.06v

----
MK1
I am not clear about your light. xee2 seems to think it is a filament bulb, yet you seem to respond with led bulbs.
Are you in fact using a filament bulb?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 18, 2010, 02:45:21 PM

Here ist,

If you do as jim proposes, then you can check with every combination without rewinding.
In the way I did it when tuning my big gold, I took the base turns down to 2, which worked.
Then, I un-wound each collector turn until the volts on the secondary ceased to rise. [I ended up with 2kv doing this.]

This device, would allow you to easily check the tuning with 3T on the base again as the collector coils go down, instead of assuming that the lowest base turns is the best.

It would be a very good way for people to get a handle on what part of the coil makes what kind of changes.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 18, 2010, 02:49:31 PM

no

J

its like this ...

FEED IT A CHANGEING SOURCE ...

: )

LOVE YOU !

think i can hetero dyne that with a BUCK STORE AM RADIO .....

lol

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 18, 2010, 02:51:56 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 18, 2010, 02:49:31 PM
no

J

its like this ...

FEED IT A CHANGEING SOURCE ...

: )

LOVE YOU !

What are you talking about?
Are you talking about my data?
are you talking about my explanation of jim's jt idea?

Feed WHAT a changing source?

j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 18, 2010, 02:53:38 PM

it serves many uses!

: )

w

jims tool

come on guys and gals .. were just rebuilding R2D2! lol!

: )

NUTTER RA HA!

cept this time they both get wings

W

THE KID says all summer long .... : )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFOV78Pi358

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on January 18, 2010, 03:15:11 PM

Quote from: slayer007 on January 15, 2010, 07:19:25 AM
I'm not really sure if this should be posted here or in Dr Stiffler's thread.

I'm using a cell phone charger to run a joule thief thats running a SEC 15.
It's also charging a 12v 7.5 ah battery and ten AA batteries and making light at the same time.

Here is a video of it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u4wdqTg1Mg

Hi Slayer007 nice setup you've got. Can you please post a schematic of that circuit?
Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 18, 2010, 05:07:46 PM

@jeanna

There is a led in the basic jt spot and a bulb on the secondary.

And it light brighter then on the battery only.

MArk

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 18, 2010, 06:45:35 PM

@ist

I tried diamagnetic, paramagnetic, and ferromagnetic materials for secondary .

Even combination of diamagnetic and paramagnetic since they react in opposition.

I also hung a roll of garden wire over it and got a led to light on it.\

More test needs to be conducted with ferromagnetic , those are planed today.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 18, 2010, 07:40:44 PM

@ist

I made a compass trial , it moves the needle counter clockwise about 10 degree every time i put the battery on , if i pulse it it rotated . it needs to be slower then my jt can.

It is in the audio range i may try something with my guitar to find sweet spots .

1khz is a B on the third string , i have to build a square wave oscillator also i think i will make it from a op amp that is all i have , for now . Plus it need i bit more than 1.5v , so i may have to go to a 9v.

http://www.ecelab.com/circuit-square-wave-gen.htm

I also found this square wave at 1.5v , 2 transistor.

http://www.redcircuits.com/Page74.htm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 18, 2010, 07:57:39 PM

MK1!

NOW THATS WHAT IM TALKING BOUT BRO!

LOVE YA!

cant waite to more of your wonderful work!

W

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 18, 2010, 08:24:38 PM

Mark,
Please explain how you hook up your special coil?
I understand the coil itself has 3 wires, so unless they are connected in series or parallel, that makes 6 wire ends.
Then there is a secondary, which has 2 ends.

It is not clear to me at all how you are connecting the jt with this coil OR even if you are using the secondary.

Please explain.

[Later I will ask how to make one, because I do not have that big round of toilet paper. but for now, I want to conceptualize it. Also, I do have poster paper and could make my own tube.]

Thank you

Actually if it is like post 1185 where you show the 24 leds in parallel it looks like the special coil is added to the toroid like a secondary in series with the secondary of the toroid .
This is exactly how my cone pancake is added and it is amazing.
So, if this is the same idea please say so.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 18, 2010, 09:09:29 PM

Quote from: jeanna on January 18, 2010, 08:24:38 PM
Mark,
Please explain how you hook up your special coil?
I understand the coil itself has 3 wires, so unless they are connected in series or parallel, that makes 6 wire ends.
Then there is a secondary, which has 2 ends.

It is not clear to me at all how you are connecting the jt with this coil OR even if you are using the secondary.

Please explain.

[Later I will ask how to make one, because I do not have that big round of toilet paper. but for now, I want to conceptualize it. Also, I do have poster paper and could make my own tube.]

Thank you

Actually if it is like post 1185 where you show the 24 leds in parallel it looks like the special coil is added to the toroid like a secondary in series with the secondary of the toroid .
This is exactly how my cone pancake is added and it is amazing.
So, if this is the same idea please say so.

jeanna

Good point Jeanna .

Ok first off this coil is supposed to be pulsed at around 30 v low amp , square wave , at low freq in the audio range more or less 1khz.
I deal condition should cause direct dc from the secondary , no diodes .

The design starts with one coil , the other two are fired in sequence 1-2-3
to cause rotation , 36 turn per coil but 3 turns per revolution .

Those are about the basic specs.

Now i mention to them about the jt for switching it , they most have laugh this one out , evidently they ignored me.

So i had to do it and learn about this new interesting coil , i have made many jt learned from it , so i made one , two, tree , they are all posted .

So to have a jt i needed pairs of coil , so i made 2 primary coil 18 turns spaced at 10 each at 45% degree angle , it worked good for a jt , connected the 2 coil the way a jt should .

They came time for adding secondary to the outside , i used the biggest gauge i could find , i need to try bigger.

Yesterday i put 2 more primary , at 5% mark between the 10% coil already there , so 4 coil of 18 turns , now running on 2 coil in series on the collector and base .

I could make more picture.

Ho btw i tuned the base and got the bulb even brighter , my sister confirmation to light is really brighter on the secondary then direct on the battery ..

I got more roll, janitor from high schools could be of help there .

diameter 87 mm by 95 mm

Edit , the toroid in the middle is not part of the circuit at all , my work bench is messy the only thing to note from that is the fact that i have 24 led on the secondary even if there is a red led in the basic jt .

I use to toroid at all.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 18, 2010, 10:46:45 PM

@ Mk1

How many turns used for secondary?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 18, 2010, 10:55:04 PM

Quote from: xee2 on January 18, 2010, 10:46:45 PM
@ Mk1

How many turns used for secondary?

I had 22 1/2 copper , and 18 aluminum bifilar style , i can run the light connected to one end of each coil , no connected in the middle .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on January 18, 2010, 11:09:46 PM

Quote from: jeanna on January 18, 2010, 08:24:38 PM
Mark,
Please explain how you hook up your special coil?
I understand the coil itself has 3 wires, so unless they are connected in series or parallel, that makes 6 wire ends.
Then there is a secondary, which has 2 ends.

It is not clear to me at all how you are connecting the jt with this coil OR even if you are using the secondary.

Please explain.

[Later I will ask how to make one, because I do not have that big round of toilet paper. but for now, I want to conceptualize it. Also, I do have poster paper and could make my own tube.]

Thank you

Actually if it is like post 1185 where you show the 24 leds in parallel it looks like the special coil is added to the toroid like a secondary in series with the secondary of the toroid .
This is exactly how my cone pancake is added and it is amazing.
So, if this is the same idea please say so.

jeanna

I would like to know more too.......

Looks like a really interesting coil.

I do not plan on using a cardboard tube.......... I was thinkjing more like a piece of plastic pipe ........or a connector made for gluing 2 sections of plastic pipe together

Plastic pipe is available in MANY sizes.......Maybe this kind of coil will scale up easily

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 18, 2010, 11:26:22 PM

@all

I made pics for you !

The one with the white secondary is how it looked before i added 2 more primary . there is still debate to the best angle . but i used 45 degrees.

There is a equation on the agentgates tread for the diameter vs length , i don't like it , its not symmetric enough for me , i tried it for about 3h to get the right numbers for 36 turns 3 per lap at 45 10 degrees apart , the best i get is 18 .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 19, 2010, 12:51:28 AM

@ jeanna

Would you please measure the inductance of 9 turns on a 1" diameter (5 for a dollar) Goldmine toroid for me? I want to compute the permeability of the material.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 19, 2010, 12:56:19 AM

QuoteOk first off this coil is supposed to be pulsed at around 30 v low amp , square wave , at low freq in the audio range more or less 1khz.
I deal condition should cause direct dc from the secondary , no diodes .

So, this is starting with 30/1.2= 25 times as much energy as a JT.
And what is happening as a result?

If it is supposed to be pulsed, then it can use a jt to pulse it.
It is not hard to make a 1khz jt that can pulse it.
So, once you pulse this with a low amperage jt at 1khz and 30v, what have you seen?

I have seen your pictures of 1 led and 24 leds in parallel (=same thing as 1 led) so that is 2 leds. You are also lighting a bulb brighter than a battery, which you say is a filament bulb.
Is this correct?

You get a steady DC so you can fill a battery from it?
Or light a dc bulb?
or put it into an inverter and use it as ac?

I want to be sure because this conversation has been a little chopped up.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Magluvin on January 19, 2010, 01:09:47 AM

Mk1
Are you using a resistor on the primary? I tried resistors and the output was significantly lower.
I didnt know you brought the coil over here.

Mags

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 19, 2010, 01:14:53 AM

Quote from: xee2 on January 19, 2010, 12:51:28 AM
@ jeanna

Would you please measure the inductance of 9 turns on a 1" diameter (5 for a dollar) Goldmine toroid for me? I want to compute the permeability of the material.

sure...

0.74mH = 9 turns.
jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 19, 2010, 01:25:09 AM

Quote from: jeanna on January 19, 2010, 12:56:19 AM

So, this is starting with 30/1.2= 25 times as much energy as a JT.
And what is happening as a result?

If it is supposed to be pulsed, then it can use a jt to pulse it.
It is not hard to make a 1khz jt that can pulse it.
So, once you pulse this with a low amperage jt at 1khz and 30v, what have you seen?

I have seen your pictures of 1 led and 24 leds in parallel (=same thing as 1 led) so that is 2 leds. You are also lighting a bulb brighter than a battery, which you say is a filament bulb.
Is this correct?

You get a steady DC so you can fill a battery from it?
Or light a dc bulb?
or put it into an inverter and use it as ac?

I want to be sure because this conversation has been a little chopped up.

thank you,

jeanna

First filament bulb YES YES :o. Brighter ! ;D

I did not pulse it with anything but the basic joule thief at 1.3v.

I can't tell , about the secondary , it may be dc but the meter can't see it without a bridge , there are many reason why my jt model is not producing dc .

But i don't think i got Dc yet i still need to make some improvement .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 19, 2010, 01:30:20 AM

Quote from: Magluvin on January 19, 2010, 01:09:47 AM
Mk1
Are you using a resistor on the primary? I tried resistors and the output was significantly lower.
I didnt know you brought the coil over here.

Mags

I am not a big fan of the TPU crowd , they seem to be all talk , better all work . I am not the only one agentgates is gone , i was told directly .

If you mean base resistor in my jt circuit . Then yes on the pictures you can see a green thing , it a 300 ohms trim pot .

So i like it here , and it is a jt after all . ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 19, 2010, 01:33:01 AM

@MK1

Oh nice!
Thanks for clarifying,

Was the 1.3v pulse from the secondary or the C-E spot?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 19, 2010, 01:36:45 AM

Quote from: jeanna on January 19, 2010, 01:33:01 AM
@MK1

Oh nice!
Thanks for clarifying,

Was the 1.3v pulse from the secondary or the C-E spot?

jeanna

1.3 volt battery , pulse C-E around 39 volts , that is from a bridge connected on it .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 19, 2010, 01:41:21 AM

I had something happen that surprised me tonight.
I have a cfl across the secondary wires of my jt secondary.
It lights... ok normal.
Then I added a bulb that is screwed into a bulb socket with wires, and I added that in series with the cfl. so they are both across the secondary and in series with each other.
The cfl goes on, but the other bulb does not.
How is that possible?
I expected that if the juice doesn't pass through the second bulb, then the first one wouldn't light either.
Is this normal?

Thanks,

jeanna

|--o--| this is one light across the secondary, and
|--o--o--| this is both of them across the secondary in series and the first one goes on but the second one does not.
?

edit:

Quote
1.3 volt battery , pulse C-E around 39 volts , that is from a bridge connected on it .

thank you, Mark
j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on January 19, 2010, 02:25:54 AM

Quote from: jeanna on January 19, 2010, 01:41:21 AM
I had something happen that surprised me tonight.
I have a cfl across the secondary wires of my jt secondary.
It lights... ok normal.
Then I added a bulb that is screwed into a bulb socket with wires, and I added that in series with the cfl. so they are both across the secondary and in series with each other.
The cfl goes on, but the other bulb does not.
How is that possible?
I expected that if the juice doesn't pass through the second bulb, then the first one wouldn't light either.
Is this normal?

Thanks,

jeanna

|--o--| this is one light across the secondary, and
|--o--o--| this is both of them across the secondary in series and the first one goes on but the second one does not.
?

edit:thank you, Mark
j

@ jeanna
Your series circuit comprises of a low resistance bulb fillament and a CFL (which requires a high voltage pulse to ionise the gas between it's electrodes) It's resistance to any current flow is very high so the current flow is insignificant. The filament is just seen as a straight piece of wire in this high resistance circuit. Hope this helps.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 19, 2010, 02:41:50 AM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on January 19, 2010, 01:14:53 AM
sure...

0.74mH = 9 turns.
jeanna

Thanks.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 19, 2010, 02:54:42 AM

your filiment bulb serves the same use as my loaded cap trick ....

forces your jt to pump harded

just like the song ...

better faster harder stronger takes the ladys extra longer ...

cept J course !

: )

W

i mesure dc and ac from my coils 1 diode in place ... must be ac or my meter wouldnt read it .. and must be dc ... or my meter wouldnt read it ...

no bridge ...

fact i can read much smaller amounts on my meter no diode ....

: )

i know the diff between oscolating ac and dc and radient ... and bla bla bla ..

lol

1 more fact if i put magic maker all togather agin : )

i can pull all i said and more from it

including neg and pos .. osc ac and dc ac dc radient ...

all at 1 time ..

peace ..

single aa or cap if i so desire to run both..

ya right thats only off the back side ... now i need to make it do something on top all that to be usefull ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Rosphere on January 19, 2010, 05:35:53 AM

This guy's nonsensical prattle grows tiresome.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8229.msg223787#msg223787 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8229.msg223787#msg223787)
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8529.msg223790#msg223790 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8529.msg223790#msg223790)
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8366.msg223791#msg223791 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8366.msg223791#msg223791)

EDIT: @IST, I was not talking about your prose, but user, "qweqwe," in the links above. Sorry about any misunderstanding.

EDIT:

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 19, 2010, 11:23:01 AM
This fellow has been removed from the forum by Stefan.

Bill

Thank you for the update, Bill.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 19, 2010, 10:38:17 AM

Quote from: Rosphere on January 19, 2010, 05:35:53 AM
This guy's nonsensical prattle grows tiresome.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8229.msg223787#msg223787 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8229.msg223787#msg223787)
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8529.msg223790#msg223790 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8529.msg223790#msg223790)
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8366.msg223791#msg223791 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8366.msg223791#msg223791)

i did find years ago how rude you were ...

never liked it ... : )

here we are ..

care to talk bout your coil ?

perhaps we have growen since then ?

w

how ever i like your coil... and i dont think many know how it operates.. if you felt like speaking bout it .. im all ears ...

if not ... well guess i can play ..it too...

wasent it a coat hanger 3 stack tpu ... otto on steel ... ? viboratory induction genny as well as magnetic currents ...

kinda think it was ...

i was cleaning the lab all day yesterday ... still not done ... yikes ... how ever i pulled out THE 6 MOT ...

it now rests on table #4 to be driven from the wobbly 404 .... through the 12dc cap full pulser then the construction caution light .. then the mot to the 6 mot board ...

and i got me another 1000 ways yet ...

thank you !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 19, 2010, 11:23:01 AM

Quote from: Rosphere on January 19, 2010, 05:35:53 AM
This guy's nonsensical prattle grows tiresome.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8229.msg223787#msg223787 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8229.msg223787#msg223787)
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8529.msg223790#msg223790 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8529.msg223790#msg223790)
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8366.msg223791#msg223791 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8366.msg223791#msg223791)

This fellow has been removed from the forum by Stefan.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 19, 2010, 11:42:56 AM

@ ROSPHERE

NO DISRESPECT! SIR! IF YOU FIND DISRESPECT IN MY WORDS ..

you read them wrong ..

will you speek about the tpu you made sooooooooooo long ago sir!

cuz i think you should!

round here ... COUNTING CROWS ...

round here something radiates

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAe3sCIakXo&NR=1

RA ! : )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 19, 2010, 04:08:00 PM

Quote from: xee2 on January 19, 2010, 02:41:50 AM
@ jeanna

Thanks.

Thank you for doing that xee2.
It explains why it is so mediochre!

cuz, it is!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 19, 2010, 04:11:55 PM

Quote from: crowclaw on January 19, 2010, 02:25:54 AM
@ jeanna
Your series circuit comprises of a low resistance bulb fillament and a CFL (which requires a high voltage pulse to ionise the gas between it's electrodes) It's resistance to any current flow is very high so the current flow is insignificant. The filament is just seen as a straight piece of wire in this high resistance circuit. Hope this helps.

but since the filament is so verrry thin, I expected it to glow at least a little , and it did not.

Is this really a high resistance circuit?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 19, 2010, 04:28:13 PM

there a few things im going to adress

first is RESPECT!

second!

teleportation ...

third~!

lol

the tpu

this device built properly is a teleportation device ... it uses audio driven equipment to properly and safely teleport... any material ... to any location ...

this is the IMPORTANCE OF HETERODYINEING ...

i can keep its tune ANY DESIRED FREQ!

THANK YOU

STAND BY FOR A SIMPLE 3 RING CORE JT TPU ... 2 H OR NOT 2 H ... LOL

w

TO JIM OR NOT TO JIM .... TO RODIN OR NOT TO RODIN ... ??

SUCH ARE THE QUESTIONS ...!

THE RODIN COIL IS IMPROPERLY BUILT ... FOR TELEPORTATION ...

I SEE A MISSING 6 AND WHERE THE HECK IS 9 LOL

btw MR M

i picked up some giant patato plates ... lol ; ) lol zink coated ... what ya wanna tune ...?

ya i have a few .... ; )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on January 19, 2010, 05:45:46 PM

Quote from: jeanna on January 19, 2010, 04:11:55 PM
but since the filament is so verrry thin, I expected it to glow at least a little , and it did not.

Is this really a high resistance circuit?

jeanna

Hi Jeanna, Let's look at an example to go with my explanation. You have a filament bulb in series with a modified cfl across the output of your JT winding. Purely as an example and to make the calculations easy, lets say our bulb filament = 2 ohms and it requires 2 volts to light. From ohm's law V/R =I so our 2 volts/ 2 ohm's = 1 amp. so our circuit must supply 1 amp to light the filament. We now add in series a CFL (there's no resistance wire that runs through the CFL to light it, it's basically a gas filled envelope with an electrode each end) the resistance to the flow of current is quite high. Let's say it has a resistance of 10000 ohm's. The total series resistance is now 10000 ohm's + 2 ohm's = 10002 ohm's. Use ohm's law again... V=2volts / R = 10002. =0.0002 amps. So as you increase the series resistance, the current decreases. There is not enough current flowing through the bulbs filament to produce light. The CFL light's up however; because it's current draw is negligible compared with the bulbs filament. (Note my resistance values chosen for calculation purposes only) It's the CFL that can be looked upon as a high resistance, which means it's current draw tends to be very low, feed it with a high enough pulsed voltage and bingo it lights up... as you have proved so well. Merv

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 19, 2010, 05:47:50 PM

to amp or not to amp ?

to ant or not to ant ...

to transmitt or not to transmitt..

to answer or not to answer ..

the answer to everything and the answer to nothin ...

but how can that bee

were off to see the wizzard the Wonderful wizzard of oz!

WELCOME TO WONDERLAND...

ALICE!

22 555 over 3 GM 11 JT

IM building it ....

W

so to put this into understandable english...

22 ga rs solid ... high q wire ... ; ) 48 turns per collector ring.. = 5' x 3 about 3 cores ... slam 11 t jt top it ... rotating 1 dirrection .. 1 lap .. pull from all 3 cores . and if ya want ... you can short the center one ...

check your winding dirrections .... : )

love ya !

LOL I THINK I WANT TO CALL IT

~THE SLIM JIM!~ JT!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AvAYyu49_s

COMEING TO KALI? : )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 19, 2010, 08:02:37 PM

here are a few pics of the 3 cores wound ...

i may whip up a few more .. see how this one turns out ...

ist!

so i will go 3 wire jt ... lol normal jt plus feedback wire .... : )

i will twist 555 as 1 ; ) and they w!ll all go !5

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 19, 2010, 08:47:53 PM

i ended up going 15t jt tree wire ... only cuz it fit better ...

had to re wind it 3 times...

say i yi yi

lol

pics all done ... ready to play it ...

ist

hey think i can wobble it?!! lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 19, 2010, 09:32:31 PM

hey do not get me started on the floppy eared floppy winde jt style... lol magnetic kick vibration generator ... dual dirrection same wire....

nut ... ya wanna help me hehehe !

lol

listen i can drive any sane soul nuts in a week ...

thats why the gf left .... lol

: )

W

things that may go hummm......
: )

so what is that cork for anyways... well i just invisined the most wild winde config ... it will half to be solid thick wire ... so it can support the core in the center but basically a M on its side outside and a ill try to draw it text...art

/| |\
} H {
|/ \|

the H is the toroide core

i may find an empty wire spool to make it of finer wire.... and loose enough that it buzzes ....

ILL 4 WARN YOU ALL

as an NUTTER RA HA!

user may encounter MASSIVE gryo EFFECT CAREFULL WHEN YA PUT HER DOWN ...

hear there still looking for some out there ...

: )

hey look it fits right inside....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 20, 2010, 12:44:49 AM

i just whipped up something else ...

and WOW!

I GET HIGH FREQ ... WHEN I GO 20 AMP TO TEST IT ... ON CURRENT .... BANG 2 AMP ... POWER SUPPLY GOES RED ...

YIKES ......

WILLIAM FILSINGER

2010

flow through at 1.5vdc supply .. is .5amp .. at at 49 vdc and 5.69 ac

thank you ...

: )

FREQ 12.1 KHZ ...

I CAN SIMPLY VERY FREQ BY INPUT VOLTAGE...

YOU CAN BUILD IT FOR UNDER 2O BUCKS

whos comeing to kali .....

lol

THE JM SCEEN

WHOS COMEING WIT ME ?

JERRY MAGUIRE ... : )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7Iq6lOSoPM

LOL LOVE IT ..... : )

I FOR GOT TO MENTION THERE IS A TUNED FEED BACK WIRE ... LOL AND I HIGH TURN COUNT SECONDARY ... WICH I NEVER MESURED YET ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 20, 2010, 02:06:52 AM

i have chosen to name this coil ..

THE MO__

it is left half named till i consult the owner of the name ...

as he willed it !

i want to name this coil after a dear old friend... to one where much respect is sent !

you know who you are ... : ) love ya borther!

W

regards

shhhhhh dont tell anyone .... ; )

lol

i love you all!

enjoy!

KAL! CANADA!

ILL BE AT THE BEACH! : )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqMTpSoS_VY

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 20, 2010, 03:53:44 AM

@all

My secondary unwound it self , so took the opportunity to make pictures of the 4 primary (both end of each coming on top ) .

Also so better pictures of the filament light bulb it lights , a strange thing is happening when i connect it to the secondary it stars slowly then get brighter and brighter .

I still have idea on how to improve it , the bulb is blinding bright at 9 volts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 20, 2010, 04:06:36 AM

Mark:

Here is an idea to maybe explain what you described. You have wire (conductor) on the outside of a dielectric (the cardboard tube) and the inside as well. Sound familiar? Maybe your tube is acting as a capacitor of sorts. It fits the description. What do you think? This may be why it starts off low and then builds?

Just thinking here.

Nice work.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 20, 2010, 04:22:10 AM

@ Mk1

"when i connect it to the secondary it stars slowly then get brighter and brighter"

Bulb resistance gets higher as it heats up. Maybe your circuit works better into higher resistance. Maybe two bulbs in series would work better since that would give higher resistance. May not be the case but it is easy to check.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 20, 2010, 05:02:57 AM

@bill

I sure don't know but , i will try some things , i was thinking of making a copper ring over the secondary (like a induction generator) or maybe aluminum.

@xee

I do have a second bulb , but maybe i could play with a pot on in series with the bulb?

I sure would love to light these up bright.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 20, 2010, 08:22:42 AM

@all

I am still up at 8 am, ;D.

Or new pictures , i made a new secondary 9 turns bigger wire , i used to get 80 volts and more , now i have only 37 volts .

Now the bulb is brighter , now i wish to find even bigger and longer wire , to see long we can keep this up.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 20, 2010, 09:24:28 AM

great work ...

see you gotts your amp out!

: )

hey i just thought up the MO KALI RODIN COIL ... lol

i found a larger feroite core fits inside a fisher price poly ring ...

its a little loose so i may go 30ga pickup... on the core first ...

last one was a dubble core ...

W

and if you might come to kali ..... i think ya should!

its been soo long since i seen the ocean ..... guess i should!

: )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 20, 2010, 09:43:18 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 20, 2010, 08:22:42 AM
@all

I am still up at 8 am, ;D.

Or new pictures , i made a new secondary 9 turns bigger wire , i used to get 80 volts and more , now i have only 37 volts .

Now the bulb is brighter , now i wish to find even bigger and longer wire , to see long we can keep this up.

Mark . Try a 1.2 volt or 2.5 volt bulb . the 2.5 volt is 1/2 watt / measure your input current . . i am replicating it now . It would be nice to know exactly what components your are using . Also i would like to try this using one primary with a two transistor Jt . It uses an inductor instead of a bicoil as a normal jt .
Ideas for core . empty Masking tape or Duct tape center spool, Satellite cable(large spool) centers are cardboard and hard as wood , mailing tubes .Pvc pipe . Spray them with clear Spray to keep them hard .
.

gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 20, 2010, 10:09:34 AM

THE G TPU WOULD BE KOOL BUT .... bet its a ways away yet ....

lol

Q wanna build BOOST CAP BLOWER UP ER ... ?

OR AN INVERTOR POWER SUPPLY ...

i would but ya know the song ... AINT GOTTS THE CAPS!

H

lol : )

gadget parts just showed up ...

another 140 cdn ... man o man

but i would like to thank mr mags and Q for all they have done ...!!

so i will some how borrow some more money some where

IM SELLING LOW VOLT AA DRIVEN MO KALI COIL KITS!

WITH INSTRUCTABLE VIDEO TO ASSEMBLE IT ...

101.15 CDN / PER KIT!

BATTERIES NOT INCLUDED!

: )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 20, 2010, 10:15:01 AM

HEy guys this is the Coolest light Source i have ever seen . EL wire . this one is white . 3 foot . It came from Ebay for a few dollars and comes with the powersupply that runs from a dead AAA battery !! has flash mode and on mode. It lights up nice at night and i had it on blink last night in a lightning bolt pattern and it was COOL ! These are amazing and runs from a tiny AAA battery with hardly no volts at all . The neat thing is it feels just like copper wire and you can bend it crease it what ever . I found other sources and it looks like about a dollar a foot but this is the only one i have seen that runs from aaa battery . ;D this ran all night long and still has power from my dead alky batt is 0.7 volts . i wont open this but this has to be producing in excess of 100 volts output cause i have some el panels and they wont light on anything less and the ones you buy as night lights have stepup inverters in them more like 1000+ V.
here is one that is 7.5 feet with two aa batteries . http://cgi.ebay.com/7-5FT-El-wire-glow-wire-cool-neon-battery-driver-White_W0QQitemZ110429563810QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item19b61d6ba2
gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 20, 2010, 10:18:56 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 20, 2010, 10:09:34 AM
THE G TPU WOULD BE KOOL BUT .... bet its a ways away yet ....

lol

Q wanna build BOOST CAP BLOWER UP ER ... ?

OR AN INVERTOR POWER SUPPLY ...

i would but ya know the song ... AINT GOTTS THE CAPS!

H

lol : )

Hey . I cant believ you aint got it yet . Well it will be there this week unless customs it taking there sweet time with it on your side . Shure i need a cap blowerer upper . but i need it to run off AA battery and i need it to pull less than 3 ma :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 20, 2010, 10:22:42 AM

@gadget

Ok i tried 2n2222 2n3709 (2n3055 was the worst) , the trim pot is 1 k.

I don't have the budget for bulbs yet, also my meter is not working on the amp , only the 10 amps range , not even close to be precise .

I got 4 primary on the last test only 2 are used , i tried running 2 transistor (2 jt) got the same result i usually get in those circumstance with regular toroid.

It lowers the output , the other primary act like a secondary feeding the second transistor it doesn't need the battery it runs on the coil it self , try anyway you will see . To do there best work they would need to be in sync , link the base of both transistor.

My wire secondary is quite bigger then rg6 sat cable , i would love some 16 or 18 .

I also have a tube a bought years ago the same size , they are likely sold some where , they look like poster tube.

I have found that to get enough turns the core needs to be taller a bit , the angle usually at 45 degree 18 turns each 6 revolution .

Ok i go to bed now it 10h20 am.

Third time in a week , oh yes the motor is running even better and direct on the bridge , i feel like last year starting on the jt , now starting over with resistive load , this year will be great !

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on January 20, 2010, 10:35:25 AM

Mark can you describe the directions of your primary and secontary winds? Clockwise/counter? Are you starting from top or bottom? I think I will make a small coil today!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 20, 2010, 10:35:43 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on January 20, 2010, 10:18:56 AM
Hey . I cant believ you aint got it yet . Well it will be there this week unless customs it taking there sweet time with it on your side . Shure i need a cap blowerer upper . but i need it to run off AA battery and i need it to pull less than 3 ma :)

HAHAHA

yea and it Will take a lifetime to fill ... lol

silly

you want pump bro!

this means USE POWER!!!!!!!!!

LOL

H

IF I PUMP 60VDC AT 10KHZ at 2 amp ... how long to fill the caps ..... ?

lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 20, 2010, 10:39:54 AM

Quote from: stprue on January 20, 2010, 10:35:25 AM
Mark can you describe the directions of your primary and secontary winds? Clockwise/counter? Are you starting from top or bottom? I think I will make a small coil today!

It doesn't mater for the secondary or the primary. Have fun !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 20, 2010, 10:47:40 AM

my meter reads amps damm fine .... lol

its brand new ... and i never tryed to beat it up yet ... 300 dollar meter TRUE RMS READING ....

: )

lol

and my coil will ZAP YOU BAD! i never PUT A BRIDGE ON IT YET......

indeed have fun ...

MK1 COMEING TO KALI?

YOU KNOW YOUR ALWAYS WELCOME!

H

ITS ONLY CANADAS MOST POPULAR BEACH! : )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on January 20, 2010, 10:59:26 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 20, 2010, 10:39:54 AM
It doesn't mater for the secondary or the primary. Have fun !

Well that makes it easy...thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 20, 2010, 11:54:04 AM

@ gadgetmall

Quote from: gadgetmall on January 20, 2010, 10:15:01 AM
HEy guys this is the Coolest

I am not interested in buying the wire (but it is cool), I want one of the power supplies. What is URL for where you bought it? The one you posted has larger power supply.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 20, 2010, 11:56:28 AM

were gonna go 8 1 5 SCLAR SPIDER NEXT!

W AND THE DREAM TEAM!

YOU SEE ... LOL

I GOT ME 1 THOS SCLAR RAINBOWS IN ME BACK YARD ....

: )

A CUPPLE OLD GOOD SONGS THAT BRING MEMEROIES AND SMILES WORLD WIDE!

HAPPY 2010 ~WINGS BABY~

first one ... THAT GOOD OLD MOUNTIAN DREW! LOL ;)

MY BROTHER BILL HAS A STILL ON THE HILL .... LOL ! CUUSIN JOE CALLS ME HILL BILL 4 YEARS NOW ... LOL ; )

THANKS GRAMPA JONES! : )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjyzHcWVqs0

ILL SHUT UP MY MUGG IF YA FILL UP MY CUP WITH THAT GOOD OLD MOUNTIAN DEW!

AND ANOTHER JUST AWESOME SONG ....

THE FORGOTTEN OLDIES! : )

Hot Rod Lincoln

AND

BILLY THE KID IS DRIVE IN IT IN ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MS9fk1u6kA

LOL

HOLD ON I GOT A LICIENCE TO FLY!

: )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 20, 2010, 01:45:36 PM

Quote from: xee2 on January 20, 2010, 11:54:04 AM
@ gadgetmall

I am not interested in buying the wire (but it is cool), I want one of the power supplies. What is URL for where you bought it? The one you posted has larger power supply.

Here ya go . just as well get the wire they are only 6 dollars with 3.3feet of your color ! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170411698861&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT

EL Wire Colors available : AQUA , ULTRA-MARINE , GREEN , YELLOW , LIME , RED , WHITE , PINK .

Price includes: one 3.3ft 2.3mm EL wire and one 1xAAA Battery Driver
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: zhak on January 20, 2010, 01:53:03 PM

Good day friends, explain what gives these details (marked in red) in the scheme Jule Thief???
How many volts need a capacitor 220 pF ...... V?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 20, 2010, 02:32:17 PM

@ gadgetmall

Quote from: gadgetmall on January 20, 2010, 01:45:36 PM
Here ya go

Thanks.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 20, 2010, 02:34:48 PM

@ zhak

Quote from: zhak on January 20, 2010, 01:53:03 PM
A day friends, explain what gives these details (marked in red) in the scheme Jule Thief???
How many volts need a capacitor 220 pF ...... V?

220 pF = 500 volts (1000 volts is better)
100 uF = 10 volts
1n4007 = 1000 volts

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: zhak on January 20, 2010, 02:51:03 PM

Thanks xee2
answer!

for which these details are needed in the scheme of JT?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 20, 2010, 03:02:29 PM

Quote from: zhak on January 20, 2010, 02:51:03 PM
Thanks xee2
answer!

for which these details are needed in the scheme of JT?

100 uf is not needed. Other parts are needed for measuring voltage but not for lighting neon.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 20, 2010, 04:38:03 PM

@ kooler

Five neons seems to work better than four (fails to fire less often), and of course gives bigger sparks.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on January 20, 2010, 04:39:08 PM

@ All,
Regarding JT circuits, there seems to be misunderstandings between the nature of the waveform being produced from this circuit. I notice on various threads the term AC being mentioned when in fact the waveform is a series of very narrow positive going pulses. The on time period compared with the off time period is considerably small, (known as the mark / space ratio) these very narrow pulses give rise to low operating current demands. An AC waveform has a completely different characteristic altogether. This waveform rises in a positive amplitude from a zero axis then falls and continues in a reverse direction below the zero axis to produce a negative amplitude... this sequence repeats at the oscillating frequency. The oscillator circuits that produce these waveforms are of a different design from that of the JT commonly used here.
For further understanding regarding the nature of various waveforms for those who are unfamiliar take a look here.
http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_1/1.html

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 20, 2010, 05:27:56 PM

Quote from: crowclaw on January 20, 2010, 04:39:08 PM
..... I notice on various threads the term AC being mentioned when in fact the waveform is a series of very narrow positive going pulses. The on time period compared with the off time period is considerably small, (known as the mark / space ratio) these very narrow pulses give rise to low operating current demands. ....

You are correct in much of what you are saying and I have learned a great deal since a year ago when I wanted to use the term AC

What you must have missed is that very often, and frequently when using the MK1 designs, or conical etc, the waveform is NOT all on the positive side.
So, while what you say in general about being able to use the volts with a very low amps need is true, what you have assumed about what we are getting for the waveform, is incomplete.

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 20, 2010, 05:40:34 PM

Quote from: zhak on January 20, 2010, 02:51:03 PM

for which these details are needed in the scheme of JT?

Hi zhak,
I agree with what xee2 said, and I will repeat it.

These 3 things marked in red are not necessary for a jt.
I do not use them when I make 1,000v or 2,000v joule thief lamps.
xee2 uses them for measuring and boosting, and I do not.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 20, 2010, 05:40:35 PM

well

i managed to winde my coil up to 90vdc 33.11 khz and out put of 3 amp!

from 7.5vdc input ...

w

think i can make it recharge its self ... lol

altho it dosent seem to want to do much work....

perhaps it needs a bridge and a cap ...

things that make you go hummmmm

: )

here are a few pictures of the last coil i built ...

looks like i blew up another power supply ...

i was even playing it safe ... not even close to the wobble ... 1 hint of wobble POOF goes the power supply...

hummmm

blew up the magic maker too ... yikes ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 20, 2010, 08:49:51 PM

mk1

wanna go high teck electrical genny ....

; )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RagPPrHUMTY&feature=rec-fresh+div-r-4-HM

H

we could then go top shelf ... lol

: )

hope all REALIZE ... NOBODY CAN GO TOP SHELF WITH OUT USEING MY WORK ... : )

TO GO TOP SHELF YOU NEED NPN AND PNP CROSSED... LOL

its a great video ...

PROBALLY CAN AVOID FURTHER ODD CRASHES IN THE FUTURE WITH THEASE WIND TURBINES........

SEE NEXT VIDEO.....

:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDJpvzoh1Iw&NR=1&feature=fvwp

now if i can just find me some that magic wind .... i mean magnetic wind .... lol

THE TURBINE IS JUST IDLEING IN SLOW WIND .... LOL

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 20, 2010, 10:40:06 PM

Current should be very low but I can not measure it - the meter says there is more current going back into the battery than is coming out (I need a better meter I guess). Other transistors should work also. Adding cap to base resistor may reduce current, but since I can not measure it there is no way for me to tell.

trigger coil = http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16821

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 20, 2010, 10:44:10 PM

lookie my latest birth ... lol

ist

next one ... im working out a quad fillar twist ...

it will be 22 22 26 30 pulse, flyback, load down, trigger ..

see how it works out ...

: )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 20, 2010, 11:12:27 PM

xee2
i think i will try to build that soon
it reminds me of the circuit that morpher44 done to drive two cfls with a d cell
since i have all the stuff .. tomorrow will be a day to build it..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zacait0vgCM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zacait0vgCM)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on January 21, 2010, 02:05:09 AM

Quote from: jeanna on January 20, 2010, 05:27:56 PM
You are correct in much of what you are saying and I have learned a great deal since a year ago when I wanted to use the term AC

What you must have missed is that very often, and frequently when using the MK1 designs, or conical etc, the waveform is NOT all on the positive side.
So, while what you say in general about being able to use the volts with a very low amps need is true, what you have assumed about what we are getting for the waveform, is incomplete.

Thank you,

jeanna

Thank you Jeanna,
I'm referring to a basic standard JT of course... should have mentioned waveforms produced during advanced experiments may take on an AC form within there component structure.
Just needed to get the difference across in general for those who are unfamiliar.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 21, 2010, 09:00:45 AM

Quote from: crowclaw on January 21, 2010, 02:05:09 AM
Thank you Jeanna,
I'm referring to a basic standard JT of course... should have mentioned waveforms produced during advanced experiments may take on an AC form within there component structure.

Just needed to get the difference across in general for those who are unfamiliar.

you sound like some one i used to know !!!!

who are you trying to get your wrong facts across to ?

please ....

show up your work or shut up !

i can speek as i please!

thank you !

H

seems to me your the lost one lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 21, 2010, 09:05:36 AM

my 404 wobbled all night .. npn ..

did ya hear that MERV!!

IT WOBBLED ALL NIGHT LONG .... FROM A AA

MERV!

IT IS EXactally as i said it was ... 2 freq ...

la de da

W

btw i scoped it ...

and this joke world is a joke !

full of half litt jokes....

sad indeed ...

but its all still my work ...

you can have 1000 tecknoligies ... lay on the shop room floor ... you can spoon feed the babbys you can solve any riddle on the planet ...

but can YOU DO IT FROM A BOX OF JUNK ... WITH OUT 10 CENTS TO YOUR NAME ....

WELL IT CAN BE DONE ... CUZ I DID IT ... UMMMMMMM 4 YEARS AGO .....

I SHOULD HAVE ACCEPTED THE 300 BILLION DOLLAR PAY OUT !

HUH?

o well now i solved it public .. and i still get my pay check ...

and all the things TAKEN FROM THE RIGHTFULL OWNER .. ALWAYS SEEM TO WORK THERE WAY BACK TO THE MIND IT ALL CAME FROM !

THANK YOU!

JUST HOW IT WORKS ... : )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlxByc0-V40

I CAN BE A SWEET DREAM OR A BRUTAL NIGHT MARE ....

; )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 21, 2010, 10:59:35 AM

I WAS PLAINLY ANNOYED TODAY!

you can see that ....

SO TODAY I PULL OUT THE TESLA TPUS ...

: p

I ONLY HAVE UMMMMM A TONNE OF EM .....

; )

IRON SILVER COPPER!

CAN EVEN GO ALUM ... AND PLASTIC HIGH FREQ MAGIC SHADOW ....

i beleave this WORLD HAS LEFT ME NO CHOISE ...

so i crack my garnet ...

ever seen a 300 carrot natural garnet full of RA W DIMONDS ?

sure i have 5lbs of em ....

: )

EVER SEE A SITE ON THE I NET! FULL OF 1000'S OF RA! W IDEAS??

SURE ....... I PUT THEM THERE ......

i roll my eyes ......

my my my !

hey merve ..... the one that repesents you in pic 14 .... aint even a garnet yet let alone a dimond in the ruff....

still a peice of mag nite! lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 21, 2010, 12:18:23 PM

how are pictures of your rock collection relevant to the jt thread?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 21, 2010, 12:35:11 PM

now crowclaw

please tell me why my meter reads ac ...

FIRST THE QUESTION MUST BE ASKED WHAT IS AC ... IS IT SINE ONLY?

NO SIR IT IS NOT....

ac stands for alternating current! thank you ...

there for if my merer is reading ac something is alternating ... be it pos or neg meaning above or below 0

then it alternates ... hummmmm eh?

so in my npn unit ... i have a pos alternation of spikes hv and low volt alternation .. but what its above 0

now in my pnp unit i also have ac ...

same old boring game reprograming humans .....

sheesh!

!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 21, 2010, 12:36:51 PM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on January 21, 2010, 12:18:23 PM
how are pictures of your rock collection relevant to the jt thread?

in more ways then you currently know sir!

: )

H

@will do you understand my crystaline transmitters ... you all are digging up as we speek ?

just wondering .... perhaps i dig you up a pic ..... o there just a few years old .....

; )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 21, 2010, 12:54:45 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 21, 2010, 12:36:51 PM

in more ways then you currently know sir!

: )

H

great! how about you list just one or two of them then... because without a coherent explanation of how they relate, you are just posting more of your 'noise'.

if you can't provide a coherent explantion of the relevance maybe you should start a new topic about your rock collection so you don't obfuscate this one with your irrelevant 'noise'.

thank you!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 21, 2010, 12:59:22 PM

HOW MANY DO YOU NEED SIR ...

LMAO ?

IST

what is the sphinks ? what is a transmitter .... what if the stones are the recievers ...

e=mc2 right ... lol

and what is the TESLA SHEILD ANYWAYS ......

; )

HEY CAT GOT YOUR TOUNGE?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 21, 2010, 12:59:59 PM

Quote from: xee2 on January 20, 2010, 10:40:06 PM
Current should be very low but I can not measure it - the meter says there is more current going back into the battery than is coming out (I need a better meter I guess). Other transistors should work also. Adding cap to base resistor may reduce current, but since I can not measure it there is no way for me to tell.

trigger coil = http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16821

Xee3 . I have one of these trigger xformers from goldmine . can you not measure the input current threw a 1 ohm resistor ? I am sure a digital meter will go nuts with Hv but you should be able to read across a resistor rather than in series ?

Gadget .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 21, 2010, 01:05:45 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 21, 2010, 12:59:22 PM
HOW MANY DO YOU NEED SIR ...

LMAO ?

IST

what is the sphinks ? what is a transmitter .... what if the stones are the recievers ...

e=mc2 right ... lol

and what is the TESLA SHEILD ANYWAYS ......

; )

HEY CAT GOT YOUR TOUNGE?

1 or 2 would suffice... i said that in my last post... are you stalling?

LMAO?

what the "sphinks"[sic] is is irrelevant... a transmitter is something that transmits... ::) the stones aren't "recievers"[sic], at least not in their current state. WHY ARE YOU ANSWERING QUESTIONS WITH QUESTIONS?

so they say... lol

something from the BOUNDLESS IMAGINATION OF IST?

NO, HAS THE CAT GOT YOURS? IS THAT WHY YOU WON'T ANSWER?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 21, 2010, 01:09:08 PM

silly ...

none the less ...

im gonna leave it alone ...

GO LEARN THE TRUTH ...

and if you ever do ....

YOU CAN SHARE .....

yw!

W

@ will

what is electricty ..... besides EVERYTHING .... LOL

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 21, 2010, 01:12:54 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 21, 2010, 01:09:08 PM
silly ...

none the less ...

im gonna leave it alone ...

GO LEARN THE TRUTH ...

and if you ever do ....

YOU CAN SHARE .....

yw!

W

yes, it is silly that you continue to avoid stating the relevance of your rock collection to the jt circuit... so that's a no then, you can't demonstrate any relevance. great! we got that straightened out. now please, don't go all off topic without a reasonable explanation of relevance. and no, talking about the sphinx is not a reasonable explanation...

leave it alone... good idea ist.

the truth depends greatly upon your point of view...

you're a funny guy ist. you act like you invented everything under the sun, yet if you look back to the start of this thread, i was the one who showed you how to light a cfl with a 1.5v battery (and no, i wasn't the first to do it either)... and you were so amazed. how can that be if you invented it?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 21, 2010, 01:16:44 PM

amazied you could do it ....

lol

: )

will can you tell me how why you yourself stand on earth ?

and what a human is ....

can you ?

cuz you know i can tell you ....

W

BUT I WONT .... I WILL ALLOW YOU ALL TO HAVE YOUR HUMAN EXPERIENCE AS WE PHASE IN THE TRUTH ...

YOUR WELCOME AGIN !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 21, 2010, 01:20:00 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 21, 2010, 01:16:44 PM
amazied you could do it ....

lol

: )

will can you tell me how why you yourself stand on earth ?

and what a human is ....

can you ?

cuz you know i can tell you ....

W

amazed that i could do it?

LOL

sure i can. can you tell me what relevance your rock collection has to the jt circuit?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 21, 2010, 01:23:30 PM

MOST CERTIANLY !

DEVINE INTERVENTION ....

THEY ARE JOULES ... ARE THY NOT !

REGARDS!

H

YOU GONNA GO h OR STAY WHERE YOU ARE .... ?

LONG time ago ALI says put your feet on the ground daddy! shortly after that i discover the garnets i had for a few years ... then the nano q then ,,, i eventually figure it out ...

thank you verry much .... did you live it ? CUZ I DID !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 21, 2010, 01:25:50 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 21, 2010, 01:23:30 PM
THEY ARE JOULES ... ARE THY NOT !

NO... THY ARE NOT!
they are rocks...

didn't you already get a timeout once before for rambling on about nonsensical things? simmer down ist and try to stay on topic please.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 21, 2010, 01:35:43 PM

will with do RESPECT ...

AND I HAVE MUCH FOR YOU !!

BUT the learneing does not end at coils ....

ok

W

you see i have a few ill frends ... perhaps need a little healing ... ya know the old video .... were just doing another lap ..... same old same old ....

and sclar crystal healing hold the keys ... to heal!

my love!

ask why i try so hard!

ONLY CUZ SHE WORKED SO HARD!

you know i went to see her the other day ..... almost brought a tear to the EYE... to still see her work so hard .....

IM GONNA KICK SOME ASS !

AND WHEN I DO ....

SHE WONT HAVE TO WORK TO DEATH!

AND DO YOU KNOW WHY ..... LOVE BABY .... THATS WHY!

HISTEAM .... WHAT DOES IT MEAN ?

H IS & TEAM!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 21, 2010, 03:21:54 PM

now that the rant is over ....

i shall carry on about my work ...

im playing the w 404 right now ... i used 2 dead aa 2500mah ... e rechargables ...

this is the verry kool part ....

i had been playing with the power supplyes wich i have blowen up in the past few days .... i bought a few of them a while back ... and i still have a spare or 3 ...

so i drained my batteries all night long and they were almost dead to start with ... so the wobbler runs a long time ... it pumps 2 freqs ... ok now i touched the 2 dead 1.2vdc batteries to the supply at 1.5 vdc ... wich i mesured prior to doing this its actually 2.4 v the things were 5 bucks each i cant expect them to be perfect ...

however ... it is a super simple way to recharge the driveing source ..... and i wont blow a supply now ....

lol

probally be able to tune it a bit better ....

: )

peace ....

H

so this means use the wobbler to pump 2 freq and recharge the 12 vdc wich replenishes the 1.2 vdc batteries that run it ... its AN ALTONATOR ...

now shall i go on ....

i get movement for free..... ok

so now i put an out put ring on top the moveing ring .... i can split flyback to charge 12vdc and run the second ring at a higher voltage ... and its already wobbleing for free .....

now you need the fence ... to catch the the electromagic feild ... plus it will also get the mag interaction ...

now when i close the loop and recharge aa it will continue to operate ... on the recharge battery alone ...

see what im saying ...

now if i used a 12 vdc super cap and borrowed some engery from the 12v recharge to fill the OUTPUT CAP FIRST .... it only takes seconds to replenish recharge .... to a pumping state ... insted of draining THE aa's and slowly filling PUSH CAP...

IT RIGHT AWAY COMPOUNDS ON WHAT IS THERE AND PUSHES BACK ...

; )

COP ?

HUMMMMM

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 21, 2010, 05:02:10 PM

thinking something else now .... why not newman pulse motor 2 freq ...

then pull off the spinning neo ... wich cost 10 bucks ... 1 x 2 " quite strong .... lol

now high speed induction on jt fly back ... plus put as many cores as you like ...

: )

think i can bring the wobble with it to high freq ?

silly question ....

i got this high speed HD PLATTER! ...

bet it fits right inside 90 deg ... : )

got this vcr head.... bet it works kick a$$ too

hey think i can put 2 motors in 1 ring and have me a BALLANCED MECHANICAL GYRO PARTICLE ...

LOL

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 21, 2010, 06:05:38 PM

Just some test results .... for tube lit with one wire.

EDIT: It also works with 1.5 volt battery, but tube is not lit as bright.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 21, 2010, 06:22:00 PM

Xee2:

Am I correct in thinking that you are using a virtual ground as Dr. Stiffler and Lidmotor, Jonnydavro, etc. are doing? That is very cool.

Just for kicks I ran my Pirate tube light on 3 volts going into the Fuji and, the Fuji circuit handled it just fine and the tube (18") was really much brighter. I may have to play around some more with 3 volts input.

I did stick a strong neo on the side of the transformer which made it even brighter and there was no squeal that I could hear. It must have raised the frequency as it did on the Jeanna Light.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 21, 2010, 06:47:58 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 21, 2010, 06:22:00 PM
Am I correct in thinking that you are using a virtual ground as Dr. Stiffler and Lidmotor, Jonnydavro, etc. are doing?

I am not sure what they are doing. My circuit is closed by capacitive coupling between tube and can.

The can was inspired by jonnydavro pans.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 21, 2010, 06:51:12 PM

Quote from: xee2 on January 21, 2010, 06:05:38 PM
Just some test results .... for tube lit with one wire.

EDIT: It also works with 1.5 volt battery, but tube is not lit as bright.

have you hooked up another 4 watter in place of the soup can?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 21, 2010, 06:54:30 PM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on January 21, 2010, 06:51:12 PM
have you hooked up another 4 watter in place of the soup can?

N0. I only have one. But I think that might work.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 21, 2010, 07:35:13 PM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on January 21, 2010, 06:51:12 PM
have you hooked up another 4 watter in place of the soup can?

That's a cool idea.

-----
I found a switch that cuts off the power completely.

(You might remember if I use the unmodified LoA light in a jtc/secondary, the lamp switch is not able to cut the power completely when I wish to turn it off. I have hypothesized that the caps etc in the protective circuit are sending waves back through the toroid just enough that the battery keeps being used to turn the transistor on until the battery is 200mv below the turn-on voltage of the transistor.)

The solution is a standard AC wall switch.
I also bought a plastic wall switch box which will hold both the switch and the battery.
Perhaps/probably I can get the whole jtc plus battery into this box and use the switch.
Switch- $1.00, plastic switch box = $0.39 all in all a cheap and easy solution.
I will make it look OK and possibly post a pic later.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 21, 2010, 10:23:37 PM

i have been diode hunting ... lol

and i yep im guessing i found better ones ...

in my 3 turn jt that charges a tonne of things ...

i used a CRYSTAL DIODE BOARD ..... lowest resistance is 6.xx kohm ... i just found 1.2kohm....

any ways it is the one that pumps the hardest... so if i lower my diode resistance will it give me higher rectified volts... lol

?

ist!

i found many high mega ohm doides as well

this plays the largest roll ........

as i have seen ...

guess i pull some out and see what the results are ...... : )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 21, 2010, 10:28:23 PM

Xee2

If you reversed the connections on the second trigger would you then have -HV or are they polarity sensitive. If you could reverse it, you might double your high voltage.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 21, 2010, 10:31:47 PM

Quote from: MrMag on January 21, 2010, 10:28:23 PM
Xee2

If you reversed the connections on the second trigger would you then have -HV or are they polarity sensitive. If you could reverse it, you might double your high voltage.

that is funny you say that and ill tell ya why ... some diodes give me same resistance both ways ... otheres block it ..... and i have pairs of them .... still same 1.2kohm but do not pass other way .... lol

probally work well for my use ....

what ya think?

W

in tests i did and shared public ... i found the 6.xxkohm ... to charge higher in volts from my supercaps .. to the second super cap .... long b4 the supercaps was full .....

makes ya wonder .... lol ; )

hence why i used it to recharge the gel... 12vdc ... and it charged verry well ... : )

so now i cut it in 4 the resistance.... what will be the result?

im still hunting ... as i dugg those out there restiance is diffrent then mesured in board ... lol

i have qutie an assortment of diodes ...

and i know i need a better one ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 22, 2010, 01:29:41 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 21, 2010, 10:31:47 PM
that is funny you say that and ill tell ya why ... some diodes give me same resistance both ways ... otheres block it ..... and i have pairs of them .... still same 1.2kohm but do not pass other way .... lol

probally work well for my use ....

what ya think?

W

in tests i did and shared public ... i found the 6.xxkohm ... to charge higher in volts from my supercaps .. to the second super cap .... long b4 the supercaps was full .....

makes ya wonder .... lol ; )

hence why i used it to recharge the gel... 12vdc ... and it charged verry well ... : )

so now i cut it in 4 the resistance.... what will be the result?

im still hunting ... as i dugg those out there restiance is diffrent then mesured in board ... lol

i have qutie an assortment of diodes ...

and i know i need a better one ...

As far as I know, when you check a diode you should get a high resistance in one direction and low resistance in the other direction. This is using the resistance reading on the meter. Now that they have a diode setting on most meters, I'm not really sure of the meter circuitry that gives you the reading. I would think that the diodes that give you the same reading both ways are questionable.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 22, 2010, 01:54:35 AM

Quote from: MrMag on January 22, 2010, 01:29:41 AM
As far as I know, when you check a diode you should get a high resistance in one direction and low resistance in the other direction. This is using the resistance reading on the meter. Now that they have a diode setting on most meters, I'm not really sure of the meter circuitry that gives you the reading. I would think that the diodes that give you the same reading both ways are questionable.

Good point.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on January 22, 2010, 03:17:25 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 22, 2010, 01:54:35 AM
Good point.

Bill

This theory is correct. A standard silicon diode has a forward voltage drop of 0.7v while a standard schotky diode has a lesser value. Their reverse resistance for all intensive purposes can be viewed as open circuit. Certain diodes work better in switching circuits especially at higher frequencies and power levels. Ultra fast and fast recovery types are worth experimenting with many of these are frequently used in PSU's surprising what you can retrieve from scrap.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on January 22, 2010, 06:39:44 AM

This is my EMPT (electro magnetic power transfer) circuit using a standard JT configuration. An empty plastic paint tin cut to make two 10" rings 2" wide.
14 turns of insulated stranded hook up wire for the secondary. The primary feedback is two turns around the outside over the secondary. This configuration produces pulses of approx 160 volts @ around 20Khz. The source = 1.5 volts using a BC547 transistor. The pick up coil is wound the same as above except no feedback winding. The distance between the coils = 5" to give light as seen but will remain lit up to around 9_10". The base resistance uses a 5k control but a 100R together with a 10R or less in series would be better to limit the base current. See Pics. Have fun

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on January 22, 2010, 06:42:06 AM

PIc two showing bottom and top coils spaced by tape reels

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on January 22, 2010, 06:50:00 AM

Notice the scope shot of the JT CE junction showing positive going pulses and not AC in this case.
This demonstration shows the magnetic flux lines from the first coil transfering through the air to the second pick up coil and lighting up the LED.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Rosphere on January 22, 2010, 07:01:26 AM

Quote from: crowclaw on January 22, 2010, 06:39:44 AM
This is my EMPT (electro magnetic power transfer) circuit using a standard JT configuration.
...
Have fun

Well this does look like a fun weekend project. Thanks for posting.

I have made three working JT circuits on different size toroidal cores, (of questionable heritage,) and one with a television transformer.

So, your twin JT coils are on the bottom ring with the secondary on the top?

You're not also using a toroid core here, are you?

A schematic would help make this an even funner weekend project, if you have the time. It might also be fun to figure it out myself. Either way, thanks for sharing.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on January 22, 2010, 07:54:29 AM

Quote from: xee2 on January 21, 2010, 06:05:38 PM
Just some A .... for tube lit with one wire.

EDIT: It also works with 1.5 volt battery, but tube is not lit as bright.

Very interesting circuit Xee2.
I see your getting a SEC effect.
You should make a couple of Dr Stiffler's towers with AV plugs to capture some of the power back.

I bet this would run great off one of them cell phone chargers.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 22, 2010, 08:06:20 AM

@ crowclaw

Nice experiment.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 22, 2010, 08:15:37 AM

@ slayer007

The SEC circuits are RF oscillators working at several MHz. The frequency of this circuit is only 58 KHz, so the capacitive coupling will be 100 times less than at 6 MHz (have to be 100 times closer for same energy coupling).

I want to see how many volts this circuit will produce. It may be good for driving spark gap circuits like the hairpin resonators.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 22, 2010, 08:18:08 AM

@ WilbyInebriated

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on January 21, 2010, 06:51:12 PM
have you hooked up another 4 watter in place of the soup can?

I used a CFL and the tube and that worked, so two tubes will work. Good idea.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 22, 2010, 10:15:12 AM

CROWCLAW : )

THANK you for shareing your work....

: )

and i mean tnat!

theres ebb and flow!

glad to see you have shared and im glad your around ... even it seams at times im not ...

glad to see the diodes spoke of more ...

the diodes i have dug out last night and continue to do so are special diodes recovered from rf amps some are are switching diodes .. many odd crystal ones ..

well i managed to find a feroite cap core coil ... and man does it work well sings lites a 60 led nice n bright ... i just added it into the 3 turn jt and i can pull from its secondary as well still pull from back side ...

it sings lould like koolers scr mot unit! WHEN I WOBBLE IT ... you must use batteries or diode portect the pos ... as i end up getting fly back go back to driveing source .. and source dont like it ...

: )

agin merve same deal as mr mag scratch routine ... and will ... im not gonna go there yet ; )

this is how we all grow ... i have learned ... far more bout life than i ever have bout electronics ...

but it is those simple little things that many missed that are so important !

william the NUT ! LOL

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 22, 2010, 10:29:02 AM

@merv..

nice setup ...

i want to talk more bout ac ... because i have massive spikes from my wobbler ...

BUT IN MY ON PULSE I HAVE 500 PLUS SPIKES ALL ABOVE 0 AND THE OSCOLATION IS BETWEEN 20 V AND 140V ... AND IT DOES THIS

J WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWL __________JWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWL__________

all from wobble tuneing the w's well over 500 per on pulse ....

i will make a video today ... of it in operation on the scope ... if i use pnp i see the same result ...

i can change the length of the way and the freq of the wobble ...

to a point where there 1000's of wwwwwwwwwwwwwwww in my pulse ...

regards!

H

it will run for days ... on 1 recharged aa ... : )

doing just as i explained ...

i was thinking of mounting all but the pot to the ring and allow it all TO WOBBLE .. cus i want to cut down on transistor engery used ... so it will run much longer ... useing the 3055 it will run a few days ...

spitting 2 freq ...

but unfortinuatally i have been unable to pick up my materials ... : ( o well...

and merve i like your bucket ring ... lol

i may go SPEEKER WIRE .... CARD BOARD TUBE RING ... large MASS .... lower selfinductance ... this allows

a powerful kick .... : )

and if i go TESLA PANCAKE ... self induceing ... well : )

peace!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 22, 2010, 12:28:08 PM

xee#2 and J

a gift for you both ...

this is the EX WJ JT ... LOL

PRODUCTION MOD El ...

: )

IT WOBBLES ... it is a transformer ... and guess what ... no round and round the core ....

: )

makes it easy and cheep to make ..

regards!

i will post a pic ...

all that is required is it to be wound peroperly ...

when properly tuned ... I NEED NO MAGNET TO MAKE HER WOBBLE

AND K YOU GONNA LOVE IT .... NO HEAD ACHE .... : )

THE 60 LED ARAAY .. WAS RIGHT OUT THE PACK ... UN MODDED .... : )

ALMOST WALL BRIGHT .... FROM 1.5 VDC SUPPLY

THE THING IS IT MAKES A CRAP PILE OF NOISE ... AND IS ANNOYING AS HELL ! : )

SOUNDS LIKE SOMEONE I KNOW WELL LOL

: )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 22, 2010, 02:29:32 PM

@Xee2, I am glad to hear that the 2 lights will work. This is cool. Thanks and
Thanks wilby for the suggestion.
=======
@crowclaw,
Thank you for sharing this with us. It means a lot.

I am wondering about what probably amounts to terms, and a schematic could clear this up.

These are some of the terms we use after a lot of hashing about.
I admit to forgetting one all the time. ;)

The primary of the joule thief is made up of 2 wires, but really if you get in there with your spatial brain you see that they are a single center tapped wire, but drawn as 2.
Drawn as 2 so we can distinguish between the part that is connected to the base of the transistor and the part connected to the collector.
We have found that often the jt works better if there are few turns on the base and more turns on the collector, in spite of the original set up with even numbers encircling the entire toroid.

The one I keep calling the secondary is the one we decided to call the "pick up". This is because of the confusion with the seemingly 2 wires on the primary.

So, if you would rename or reconfirm the names you have used in your circuit, I will be much obliged.

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 22, 2010, 02:33:22 PM

Crowclaw:

Nice device. Thanks for showing it to us. It was also good to see the scope shot as well.

Jeanna:

I agree. Correct me if I am wrong but I think what we sort of agreed on was this:

Base coil
collector coil
pick-up coil

Is this correct? I think this was Xee2's suggestion and I think it works. I have been trying to remember to use these terms myself.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 22, 2010, 03:29:54 PM

Quote
Base coil
collector coil
pick-up coil

Is this correct? I think this was Xee2's suggestion and I think it works. I have been trying to remember to use these terms myself.

Yes, xee2 put it together as a suggestion and we agreed.

[I use the terms center tapped primary, and secondary, because I forget, and to save on the constant need to explain the center tapped part.]

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 22, 2010, 03:41:46 PM

Quote from: crowclaw on January 22, 2010, 06:39:44 AM
This is my EMPT
.... This configuration produces pulses of approx 160 volts @ around 20Khz.

You should be able to light a neon with that, and in fact one of those UNmodified led bulbs from LoA. Since you are in the UK, you do not have access to that LoA bulb, but I would like to make that work as you have.
I have those paint cans and without cutting them, I can just stack 2 of them but I do not understand what you are calling the jt.
Did you use the hook up wire because it is convenient? or are you finding you need it instead of more typical electronics type wires like awg 24 telephone wire?

What is the amps draw?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on January 22, 2010, 04:38:45 PM

Quote from: jeanna on January 22, 2010, 02:29:32 PM

The one I keep calling the secondary is the one we decided to call the "pick up". This is because of the confusion with the seemingly 2 wires on the primary.

So, if you would rename or reconfirm the names you have used in your circuit, I will be much obliged.

Thank you,

jeanna

Hi Jeanna, Thanks for your interest. Yes I've mistakenly named the secondary and primary... so the collector coil (primary) 14 turns _ secondary + (base coil) 2 turns. I will post the schematic but it's no different from the basic JT. The receiver coil is 14 turns only... identical but without the 2 turn base winding. This is just a pick up coil which suspended above the JT and provides enough energy to light the LED. The scope shot is the CE junction of the JT. The draw is approx 60Ma. The two coils are from an ongoing project I'm working on using a high power 150KHz sine wave oscillator. So theres plenty of scope for experimenting here.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on January 22, 2010, 04:41:41 PM

Quote from: xee2 on January 22, 2010, 08:06:20 AM
@ crowclaw

Nice experiment.

Many thanks.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on January 22, 2010, 04:45:04 PM

@ ist
Thank you for your interest.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 22, 2010, 04:57:52 PM

Quote from: crowclaw on January 22, 2010, 04:45:04 PM
@ ist
Thank you for your interest.

i have many intrests in your skills

sir ...

i just want you to share ... same with will mags and many others ...

: )

so old dear friend JP stops in for a visit .... and well it is not fit for public conversation ...

i will go so far as to say ...

i dont think this unit can be topped!

he wants me to build it ... and if i do it is to be named JP AC!

REGARDS...

i added my twist as well alum ... :; ) the origonal calls for copper ... however i beleave alum to yeild better ...

it is a solid state of the art device!

i can fully explain ... b4 i build it ...

W

materials will include copper alum magnets ferroite ... it is pure genius came to him in his dreams!

i need not say more .....

you all know how bad i want to share this ?? well it all hinges on my work ....

i pretty well have exposed most of it already ... but not assembled as it was delivered to me ...

and 5 min of talking bout it ... with JP and we ballanced it ... ; ) dubbled the possible ou puts too lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on January 22, 2010, 05:04:14 PM

Quote from: Rosphere on January 22, 2010, 07:01:26 AM
Well this does look like a fun weekend project. Thanks for posting.

I have made three working JT circuits on different size toroidal cores, (of questionable heritage,) and one with a television transformer.

So, your twin JT coils are on the bottom ring with the secondary on the top?

You're not also using a toroid core here, are you?

A schematic would help make this an even funner weekend project, if you have the time. It might also be fun to figure it out myself. Either way, thanks for sharing.

Hi Rosphere,
Thanks for your interest. The bottom 10" coil is the JT, wound with 14 turns of insulated stranded hook up wire around the circumference of the ring (primary) and tapped to 2 turns of same wire for base feed (secondary) The top coil is floating and totally in dependant of the bottom one and has just the 14 turns around it's circumference and terminated with an LED. The difficulty is to attain matching coil resonances as the transfer efficiency is not brilliant. BTW I prefer to use stranded wire for my multiple wind coils.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 22, 2010, 05:05:33 PM

@crowclaw,
One more question, please.

QuoteThis configuration produces pulses of approx 160 volts @ around 20Khz.
.....and.....
The distance between the coils = 5" to give light as seen but will remain lit up to around 9_10"

Where are you measuring this?
I gather the "light as seen" is connected at the pickup, but it should be blowing the light up wherever it is. These leds cannot take this kind of spike of more than 20spikey volts each over 50Khz, and really 10 spikey volts is the most I dare to design.

So, I find this very curious.

jeanna

EDIT:
I see you answered this to rosphere while I was typing!... sloooow typer.
j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 22, 2010, 06:19:16 PM

J

will you build this with me?

it is the wildest thing ....

it is even wilder how and why it works as it does .....

and ... there aint much better .... built yet ... public anyhow ... and i doubt they built it properly otherwize ...

: )

W

i dont need to ask K he will do it in a heart beat ... : )

of course me being me ... i got a 1000 ways to do it too .... but JP'S drawing ... is damm nice ..... : )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 22, 2010, 07:21:55 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 22, 2010, 06:19:16 PM
J

will you build this with me?

it is the wildest thing ....

it is even wilder how and why it works as it does .....

and ... there aint much better .... built yet ... public anyhow ... and i doubt they built it properly otherwize ...

: )

W

.. but JP'S drawing ... is damm nice ..... : )

I cannot find JP's drawing, so I do not know if I am interested.
Please let me know where it is, and I will have a look.

jeanna

Here are 2 pics of the circuit stand I just made.
I can use any unmodified LoA bulb in any lamp with this as long as the lamp has a commercial plug .
The switch and the plug socket are glued to the board and will stand on a table anywhere next to any lamp.
I like this design as it is modular and portable, and yes, you can use both plug sockets although there is some dimming of each light, but NOT half, so by using 2 lamps in this, the spikes are being more completely used.

Oh, and yes, there are 2 AAA batteries. One was just a bit lower than fully bright. I will be actually using this with a real lamp (not this one which is the thrift store kind) so my priority becomes less scientific, and more practical.
jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 22, 2010, 08:49:53 PM

youll love it baby!

it will be sent to only of my choise ...

and GADGET .... LOL

BURN !

56.50 US SHIPPING ... WELL ! AFTER YOU TELL ME 360 US ... AND I GAVE MAGGS 5 BAT CAPS FOR 150 CDN ..

ALL I CAN SAY GRASS ROOTS NEVER DIE!

HAHAHA ON U !

I GOT SH!FT YOULL NEVER FIGURE OUT ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 22, 2010, 08:55:27 PM

@all

Sorry

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on January 22, 2010, 09:05:50 PM

Quote from: xee2 on January 21, 2010, 06:05:38 PM
Just some test results .... for tube lit with one wire.

EDIT: It also works with 1.5 volt battery, but tube is not lit as bright.

THIS IST TESLA HIGHT VOLTAGE TRANFORMER ....
PLYZ VIEV
http://freeenergyinfo.narod2.ru/tesla/
http://www.keelynet.com/tesla/index.html

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 22, 2010, 09:13:53 PM

A BRIEF EXPLANATION FOR J

THERE IS A QUADRA JT ON A TRANSFORMER CORE ...

THERE 2 MICROWAVE MAGNETS WITH 3 TURNS OF WIRE ..

2 PEICES OF COAX ...

LOL

AND 12 TURNS ABOUT THE C O A X ...

AND THE MAGNETS ARE BUCKING ...

75 OHM 3VDC ...

THANK YOU VERRY MUCH!

LOL

BASICALLY 2 TESLA COILS FIRED VIA MAGNETIC RESONANCE CONVERTED IN FREQ VIA ALUM ...

REGARDS ...

O YEA RUNS ON MY KICK ...

AND I CAN FLUX LOOP IT ..... LOL

YOU KNOW DAMM WELL WHO!

H

ORIGONAL DESIGN CALLS FOR 1/2 " COPPER PIPE WICH CONVERTS MAGIC TO ELECTRIC IN A 1 TURN HIGH APMRAGE AIR CORE TRANSFORMER... AND THE 12 TURNS ABOUT IT ... IS THE STEP UP TRANFORMER THERE 2 OF THEASE ... I CHANGED IT TO ALUM ... AS IT FORCES THE RADIATEING MICROWAVE MAGNET FLUX TO CUT ALL THE WINDS ... AND I ALSO FIRE IT STRIGHT THROUGH THE COAX COPPER ... FOR HIGH AMPRAGE ...

: )

THIS IS

J PAC! NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH TU PAC!

LOL

LIKE I SAID I HAVE 1000 WAYS TO BUILD IT AND THE ONLY 1 EXPLANATION
TO WICH IT IS FULLY EXPLAINED ...

OOOOOO BRINGS UP A SONG ...

MC HAMMER BABY!

CANT TOUCH THIS ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2c4L4CPfQY8

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 22, 2010, 09:40:04 PM

@all

I have tested my coil , in a visual way , here you see a picture of my testing coil , it is connected to a bridge and a red led , see how the light change depending on location.( on the video ) yes yes ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Glg8ZWntnAo

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 22, 2010, 09:54:56 PM

NOT BEING COKEY HERE BUT GADGET WILL NEVER SHAKE MY HAND ...

AS HE KNOWS THEY'LL PICK HIM UP IN CHINA FOR SPEEDING BACKWARD...

LOL

WHY DID TESLA NOT SHAKE HANDS ....

PERHAPS HE WAS WEARING HIS SHEILD .....

WHAT YA TINK LOL

; )

IF I AMP MY BODILY ENGERIES 1000FOLD X7 WHAT IS THE EFFECT WHEN I SHAKE YOUR HAND ...

MASON STYLE !

SPEEDING TICKET BACKWARD! BABY!

OUT WITH THE OLD MOON IN WITH THA NEW ONE ... LOL

SOME PICS ...

I HAVE WELL OVER 400 MORE DRAWINGS ... DATES TOO ... : )

NOTICE CAP ON AIR CORE SECONDARY ..... ON THE IST HT LOL

NOTICE ...... : )

LAST PIC IS FOR J ONLY REASON I SHARED IT PUBLIC ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 22, 2010, 10:31:33 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 22, 2010, 09:40:04 PM
@all

I have tested my coil , in a visual way , here you see a picture of my testing coil , it is connected to a bridge and a red led , see how the light change depending on location.( on the video ) yes yes ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Glg8ZWntnAo

Yeay hooray!!
MK1 made a video!!

Now for some questions.

Did I see 2 transistors?

And what is the little coil?
I see it is attached with a secondary but there is no way to see what it is connected to.

And, I still do not know the cardboard coil circuit.
If the connections are visible in the video it is possible to add the names and point to the parts through youtube even after it is finished.

You say it is connected to a bridge.
Is it acting like an avramenko plug?

Great going... bring em on!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 22, 2010, 10:49:13 PM

Quote from: jeanna on January 22, 2010, 10:31:33 PM
Yeay hooray!!
MK1 made a video!!

Now for some questions.

Did I see 2 transistors?

And what is the little coil?
I see it is attached with a secondary but there is no way to see what it is connected to.

And, I still do not know the cardboard coil circuit.
If the connections are visible in the video it is possible to add the names and point to the parts through youtube even after it is finished.

You say it is connected to a bridge.
Is it acting like an avramenko plug?

Great going... bring em on!

jeanna

Ok there only one transistor used.

Since i have my own way of seeing thing , i needed to see for my self the field around the TPJT , so i used the coil the middle is made of 30 gauge wire around 1000 turns , the other wire are to hold the thing together(i did not test those).

So i connect the coil to a bridge and to a led , this is my latest test equipment .

It also help me understand the meaning of the circuit on the original TPU.

Its like trying to make a 2 jt circuit on one toroid , one will run better for free.

Everyone should experiment making a 2 jt on one toroid , its very educative.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 22, 2010, 11:01:51 PM

GOT MY 500 DB107 BRIDGES .....

me is happy .... 200 npn 2222a tin cans and 100 pots and a box of cores and 1 crap cap !

lol

ist!

and even tho im upset with gadget right now .... i still must thank him for the solars he threw in even tho there only 2 bucks each .... i guess he felt bad ripping me on the shipping ....

i dont feel bad takeing back ALL THAT IS MINE ... : )

RE 'S GARDS!

: )

4 GADGET..... LOL CANT ROCK DA BODY WIT OUT DA BODY ROCK! ; )

THOUGHT I TOLD YOU BOY! ......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgesQB4KEJk

1 MORE TRUELY THEN IM DONE WITH IT ..... LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQcEGmB7MNI&NR=1

I LIKED THE SPRINKLER METHOD .... WORKED WELL ... : )

BUT THE OLD PAINT IN THE GUN TRICK AT THE END ....

LOL IT WAS HANDY TOO ....

BILLY THE KIDD! RA WWWWWWWW !

I LEARNED A LOT FROM THE GADGET EXCERCIZE ... WHERE DO MY TECKS GO .... HOME BABY!

SO I GUESS I WILL EMPLOY MY BACK YARD FIRST ...

THANK YOU !

; )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 22, 2010, 11:40:36 PM

@ FreeEnergyInfo

Nice drawings. What voltage are you using to power your flyback?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 22, 2010, 11:54:04 PM

Voltages from the Goldmine trigger coils were no better than with a JT. But the outputs are AC.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 22, 2010, 11:56:46 PM

IM also building public a jt driven verry high speed compact pulse motor ....

that will charge car batteries fast .....

built from old junk ...

vcr head or hd platter ...

my design is already posted public .. long time ago ...

super seeds all i have ever seen !

H

1000 pictures speek 1 billion words

i took a few ... : )

take a peek ..

i lay my RE CLAIM NOW!

15 FOR FREE ? NAW I NEVER DID .....

CHA CHING ....

WE CAN SWING IT ....... : )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRJkpwzJe9Y

QAD ? ; )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 23, 2010, 12:45:55 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 22, 2010, 06:19:16 PM
i dont need to ask K he will do it in a heart beat ... : )

of course me being me ... i got a 1000 ways to do it too .... but JP'S drawing ... is damm nice ..... : )

build what??
who is jp .. ??
did i miss some thing..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 23, 2010, 12:55:54 AM

OOOPPPPEEEE

LOL

IST PULLS A GADGET ....

I DROPED A MAGNET IN THE TOROIDE BOX ...

LMFAO

LOOKIE THE RESULT ...

: )

THINK IT WILL FLY MOM ?

: )

LOL

SILLY HUMANS!

H

YA IT PRATICALLY BUILT ITS SELF ...... LMFAO...

MAGIC ... I GUESS!!!!

NOW WHERE IS THE JT ....

2 RS COILS ALREADY WOUND

TY!

MAYBE I COULD WOBBLE IT .... HUMMMMM NAW IM SHAKE THE SH!FT OUT IT.

: )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 23, 2010, 12:57:27 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 22, 2010, 10:49:13 PM

Its like trying to make a 2 jt circuit on one toroid , one will run better for free.

Everyone should experiment making a 2 jt on one toroid , its very educative.

Now, that is a very interesting comment.
Did you look at the cone secondary I made?

The cone was made with 2 wires bifilar and when I finished I got little results until I connected the end of one to the beginning of the other the way we make the primary of a jt.
Then, I had to take the end of wire that was at the thin top of the cone, and wind a few turns around the same toroid,
And if I connected that to some leds then to the other end at the bottom, I got a good amount of light, but the scope showed this amazing ring.

In a way, your results are not very high, but they are unusual.

Is this the kind of thing you are talking about?

I do not understand how it relates to the cardboard tube, however.
Nobody has made a clear explanation yet.

thank you for trying,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 23, 2010, 01:38:03 AM

@all

It was a demonstration of my new tool , to analyze the performance of my new coil, and there are no other way i could think of .

Now my new coil doesn't seem to show really high voltage , but it has more power then any coils i have made before.

The output from the secondary are almost independent from the jt circuit , it helps when you have many secondary , even the pickup coil is loaded the jt runs unaffected.

It runs motor 12 dc no cap , filament bulb , not the regular jt .

I did see your experiment with the cone, 2 turn secondary plus asymmetric pancake coil .

Now for the Cardboard tube , you need 2 coils going around the core like a regular toroid, but the coil needs to be at 45 degree on both face of the core , those are the base and collector coil the one on the outer rim is the pickup coil.

This is a basic version , you are supposed to leave room between the wires ,

Also when i say many time around (revolution ) , You understand , A bit like the Rodin coil .

The secondary works with bigger wire , bigger the better , More turns on the base and collector coil means more out of the pickup coil.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 23, 2010, 01:49:49 AM

@ Mk1

Quote from: Mk1 on January 23, 2010, 01:38:03 AM
my new coil

That is an amazing coil. Will this version light a filament bulb using the pickup coil?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 23, 2010, 02:04:09 AM

Quote from: xee2 on January 23, 2010, 01:49:49 AM
@ Mk1

That is an amazing coil. Will this version light a filament bulb using the pickup coil?

Yes , i am already on a new one , i will try to make it better , they all light filament bulb , to different degree , but there is so much more to it...

I will try to make one from a smaller tube , commonly found around the house and take all the pictures needed to make some follow along instructions.For those that really need it , but honestly it is so new , better design will come along , lets let it evolve like the jt usually dose .

But this is like step one , and it feels like going backward , but there is more then just volts .

Thank for your interest.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 23, 2010, 02:04:52 AM

That is good so far Mark,
Now, how are these 1 and 2 to be connected?
Are they eventually connected to each other in series?
Are they connected end of 1 to beginning of the other?

The secondary is easy,
It is the primary that nobody has managed to get through my head! ;D

====
@All,

I just posted something which I believe will help many who live in countries where they cannot buy the toroids we have.
I just took the little orange toroid from a small cfl and made a very powerful joule thief whose secondary is 60v at 62Khz.
This will light 8 leds blazing bright (as I showed) and with 10 strings of leds connected in parallel the amount of light will fill a room with no more amps draw from the battery than one led.

I wrote the recipe.
I am very pleased to have been able to do this.
I hope it can help many people light their homes.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 23, 2010, 02:17:18 AM

@ Mk1

Quote from: Mk1 link=topic=6123.msg224498#msg224498 A=1264230249
and take all the pictures needed

Great. I think a photo of just the base coil on the tube would help people understand better how it is made.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 23, 2010, 02:22:10 AM

WOBBLER #II

CUTS CARPET ON BRODWAY!

REGARDS

W

PS TELL YOUR FRIENDS WHO INVENTED IT ... : )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QmYGbxobic

FOR MY FREINDS WHO HAVE PASSED !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiSfTyrvJlg

HUNNY WHY YOU CALLING ME SOOOO LATE .... : (

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 23, 2010, 02:22:18 AM

Yes,
Base and collector and how they connect together.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 23, 2010, 02:29:27 AM

@ Mk1

Quote from: Mk1 on January 23, 2010, 02:04:09 AM
I will try to make one from a smaller tube

I think maybe I am starting to understand how this works. If I am correct, it will work better as the diameter of the tube is increased. So, using a smaller diameter tube should not work as well. Your test will be very interesting.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 23, 2010, 02:40:02 AM

make it 4.125 - 5'' and see your results
it gets better the bigger its gets

ps. the more wire you use the less ma's it uses

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 23, 2010, 02:52:04 AM

@ kooler

Quote from: kooler on January 23, 2010, 02:40:02 AM
make it 4.125 - 5'' and see your results
it gets better the bigger its gets

ps. the more wire you use the less ma's it uses

Have you made one?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 23, 2010, 03:05:22 AM

Quote from: xee2 on January 23, 2010, 02:52:04 AM
@ kooler

Have you made one?

LOL

KOOLER AINT K 4 NUTTIN ....

LOL

ILL TAKE K AS Q IS ASLEEP!

THANK YOU !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 23, 2010, 03:09:44 AM

indeed i have
in all different cofigs
the best design is winding it ( primary and secondary )in the horizontal fashion
but you only get what you put in..
the design i took a pic of a couple months back.. it takes 100ma's in
that was the lowest i could get it..
with two turns on a secondary it showed bridged 2.15 volts but it showed 80-90 volts on the scope. (once i bought a scope..)
but you guys may do better than me..
i was even able to run some of my output back to input.. but you don't want to go there..
it would lite alot of leds 8mm 0r 10mm..
at one point i was able to run so much of my output back.. in that it messed with my head
my wife asked me what was my problem was ..
i told her that i was so pissed at my self right now that i didn't want to talked to no one..
then i found out that it was probably my metal table working with my coil that done it..
after i read the floyd sweet post on a different website.. he talked of the same thing..
if i can help .. let me know

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 23, 2010, 03:15:00 AM

@all

On picture 6 i am starting the second revolution , you go like that about 18 turns or at least until you get to the other end of the wire.

Then you put a second one in the empty space , leaving room between them.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on January 23, 2010, 06:08:03 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 23, 2010, 12:55:54 AM
OOOPPPPEEEE

LOL

IST PULLS A GADGET ....

I DROPED A MAGNET IN THE TOROIDE BOX ...

LMFAO

LOOKIE THE RESULT ...

: )

THINK IT WILL FLY MOM ?

: )

LOL

SILLY HUMANS!

H

YA IT PRATICALLY BUILT ITS SELF ...... LMFAO...

MAGIC ... I GUESS!!!!

NOW WHERE IS THE JT ....

2 RS COILS ALREADY WOUND

TY!

MAYBE I COULD WOBBLE IT .... HUMMMMM NAW IM SHAKE THE SH!FT OUT IT.

: )

FREE INFO
ANTANAS
LITHUANIA
http://freeenergyinfo.narod2.ru/
http://www.youtube.com/user/FreeEnergyInfo
antanaslietuva@gmail.com

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on January 23, 2010, 06:22:21 AM

Quote from: FreeEnergyInfo on January 23, 2010, 06:08:03 AM
FREE INFO
ANTANAS
LITHUANIA

http://freeenergyinfo.narod2.ru/
http://www.youtube.com/user/FreeEnergyInfo
antanaslietuva@gmail.com

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on January 23, 2010, 06:25:21 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 23, 2010, 03:15:00 AM
@all

On picture 6 i am starting the second revolution , you go like that about 18 turns or at least until you get to the other end of the wire.

Then you put a second one in the empty space , leaving room between them.

Mark

http://freeenergyinfo.narod2.ru/
http://www.youtube.com/user/FreeEnergyInfo
antanaslietuva@gmail.com

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 23, 2010, 08:55:19 AM

Quote from: kooler on January 23, 2010, 03:09:44 AM
indeed i have
in all different cofigs
the best design is winding it ( primary and secondary )in the horizontal fashion
but you only get what you put in..
the design i took a pic of a couple months back.. it takes 100ma's in
that was the lowest i could get it..
with two turns on a secondary it showed bridged 2.15 volts but it showed 80-90 volts on the scope. (once i bought a scope..)
but you guys may do better than me..
i was even able to run some of my output back to input.. but you don't want to go there..
it would lite alot of leds 8mm 0r 10mm..
at one point i was able to run so much of my output back.. in that it messed with my head
my wife asked me what was my problem was ..
i told her that i was so pissed at my self right now that i didn't want to talked to no one..
then i found out that it was probably my metal table working with my coil that done it..
after i read the floyd sweet post on a different website.. he talked of the same thing..
if i can help .. let me know

robbie

WHEN I DID THIS ON THE B&Y IT FRIED MY SURROUNDING DIODES ...

im guessing the mk coil made some sclar .. when i was sweeping ...

it did this cuz i jted the outter winding and feed back into collector

so i have dc floating ac flyback

yea i quit playing that game for now

with wobbler #II this problem will not be

i want to use equal mass ... coils high turn count verry thin coil ...

i have previsouly explained why a thin coil ....

nice work FREEENGERY INFO!

AS PER USUAL ... : )

MK1 WONDERFULL

AND TO SEE YOUR VIDEO ... I CANT WATE FOR YOU TO MAKE MORE !

KOOLER !

YOU GOT SOME MICROWAVE MAGNETS AND AN TRANSFORMER CORE .. ?

we want a dubble jt 1 core ... 2 magnets in bucking off it ... and it gets fired pos neg and neg neg ...

you want to use the magic magnetic kick contained in the feroite core to BOUNCE THE MAG FLUX ACROSS THE ALUM ....

i will build it soon ...

i just had to post it to LAY MY CLAIM TO IT !

: )

H

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 23, 2010, 09:12:47 AM

THANK YOU SIR! C

FREE ENGERY .... A TRUE HONER TO BE WITH YOU SIR!

THANK YOU 1 MILLION TIMES OVER !

I NEVER FORGET ... ALL THAT HAVE REMADE ME WHAT I TRUELY AM !

YOU SIR !

: )

SIT RIGHT BESIDE ME !

REGARDS !

WILLIAM

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 23, 2010, 10:43:14 AM

I STARTED ON THE REAL WORLD ....

: )

i went 101+ 15 lol turns 28 gage ... magwire..

both coils wound same dirrection ...

this is still only a 404 lol

and im a turn it 808

by adding another .. on the bottom oppsite dirrection ...

regards ...

W

anyone ever run a magnet down alum ? what is the result ? reduced SPEED ?

THANK YOU !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on January 23, 2010, 11:39:17 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 23, 2010, 09:12:47 AM
THANK YOU SIR! C

FREE ENGERY .... A TRUE HONER TO BE WITH YOU SIR!

THANK YOU 1 MILLION TIMES OVER !

I NEVER FORGET ... ALL THAT HAVE REMADE ME WHAT I TRUELY AM !

YOU SIR !

: )

SIT RIGHT BESIDE ME !

REGARDS !

WILLIAM

ok,ok ok .....
peace !!!
free energy === FREE INFO !!!!!
ANTANAS
LITHUANIA

http://freeenergyinfo.narod2.ru/
http://www.youtube.com/user/FreeEnergyInfo
antanaslietuva@gmail.com

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on January 23, 2010, 12:35:47 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 23, 2010, 03:15:00 AM
@all

On picture 6 i am starting the second revolution , you go like that about 18 turns or at least until you get to the other end of the wire.

Then you put a second one in the empty space , leaving room between them.

Mark

Thanks for the detailed directions

I just got back from the store. I bought 2 ft of 4 inch PVC pipe I thought I would use part of it to make a coil like yours.

I had a thought....... if a piece of copper or other metal was wrapped around the tube before winding the coil..........I would think that the coil would put a pretty good electro static charge on it....... maybe that charge could be used for something.

Maybe an extra length of secondary could be connected to it......... like a trigger coil. ...... so it might work for wireless transmition

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 23, 2010, 01:39:34 PM

MIGHT MESS UP YOUR TV GARY ... LOL

i am gonna throw the wobbler on the shelf for now ... it is annoying big time .. last coil worked quite poorly ...

could be the weight of the core or maybe the size of the coils .. or perhaps the distance between them ...

none the less im a tune a gold mine ... for highest output per turn ...

agin ... then make a few output leads on it ... ac out put sounds good bridged to a cap or 8

W

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 23, 2010, 03:19:17 PM

@ ist

Quote from: innovation_station on January 23, 2010, 01:39:34 PM
i am gonna throw the wobbler on the shelf for now

After pages and pages of posts, you still have not explained what your wobbler is or how it works. So what is the point of posting anything about it at all? If you do not want to explain what it is and how it works then your posts about it are of no use to anyone and are just wasting space.

EDIT: I am not trying to discourage you from posting, I am trying to encourage you to make your posts more useful.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 23, 2010, 04:37:17 PM

So, I got more pictures of how to wind it (this is fine because others do not know how) but still nothing on what wire connects to which part of anything.

My synopsis:
So far, you do this complicated wind around a duct tape roll and put it on the table and it lights a filament tube.
Oh, yes, you arrange a transistor and a battery near the tube so it works by osmosis through the air as long as it is near the tube.

SO,
If there is anyone who knows how to connect the wire ends together and to the transistor and battery , please do tell.

and,
I will thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 23, 2010, 04:43:05 PM

Quote from: FreeEnergyInfo on January 23, 2010, 06:08:03 AM
FREE INFO
ANTANAS

These are very interesting concepts.
I have seen a few like this but I do not remember seeing all of these.
Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 23, 2010, 04:43:09 PM

@jeanna

Its a standard jt 2 coil connect one end of each to the positive of the battery , then one to the base the other to collector, test if it do not work then reverse one of the cables , TADA , you got light.

Mark

I will try the type of winding free energy info has posted...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 23, 2010, 04:57:36 PM

Oh I see.
Thanks
Now, I gotta get me some tape!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on January 23, 2010, 05:04:38 PM

Quote from: FreeEnergyInfo on January 22, 2010, 09:05:50 PM
THIS IST TESLA HIGHT VOLTAGE TRANFORMER ....
PLYZ VIEV
http://freeenergyinfo.narod2.ru/tesla/
http://www.keelynet.com/tesla/index.html

The image 5 from the quoted post, filename image5.jpg or something to that effect ..there is a switch! however it does not incorporate turning off the path to ground, so i'm not sure why there is a switch where it is.

- - - - - - -

Xee2 and MK1;
Regarding the recently posted coil designs: Have either of you noticed the linear short on the inside versus the radial path on the outside?

I was thinking about this coil, from one of my previous attempts at winding, and though it may have a different performance, if instead of advancing the coil on the inside, if you were to make that path 90 degrees.. in other words, have the outer winding angled and the inner winding vertical, only advancing on the outside. As it stands though, there is some interesting effects to be had as is.

My though revolves around created two reference planes in the magnetic path which are at angle to one another.

Image one is a coil in coil attempt posted previously in this thread, many thousands of posts ago.

- - - - - -

I believe that there is a enhanceable moment of inertia inherent in the process of associating an electric current through a wire versus it's intrinsic need to dissociate and create a opposite emf. There is some physics involved in causing the emf, a slow turn on time and a quick turn off time indicates reluctance to in flow, with reactance to out flow.

I recently tried this setup to see what results would I would get: With a hand wound trigger coil, I used a source capacitor and discharged it through the lesser windings of the trigger coil. This was done through a manual switch ( and i'm not fast enough for this to be reliable ) .. the greater winding of the trigger coil were electrically isolated, connecting the expected positive end of the collapsing magnetic field with the previously positive side of the capacitor via a diode which prevents flow from the initial charge from entering the capacitor. The other end of the greater winding is attached to the other side of the capacitor.

I wasn't able to get a higher voltage stored in the capacitor, but I did notice that when I used a 3300uF electrolytic, that the voltage did come back up, but only slightly, no gain, only loss. Here is a diagram. Image two.

- - - - -

IST, you toroid madness never ceases to amaze me, but is it worth the effort and are you actually containing anything?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on January 23, 2010, 05:05:41 PM

[quote author = DÅ¾inas link = topic = 6123.msg224583 # msg224583 date = 1264282985]
Tai labai idomi koncepcija.
AÅ¡ maÄiau, kaip Å¡is kelias, bet as nepamenu PAMATYTI visus Å¡iuos.
AÄiÅ«,

DÅ¾inas
[/ Quote]

Gerai ....

ok plyz download ,viev or save compiuter ......

http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/PJKBook.html

http://freeenergyinfo.narod2.ru/site_link/
http://freeenergyinfo.narod2.ru/joule_thief_circuit/
ANTANAS
LITHUANIA

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on January 23, 2010, 05:17:57 PM

This brings me back to my original question, does current fill a capacitor or does voltage? ..I can see the two are dependent on one another, a voltage delinquent capacitor isn't a full capacitor.

In the previously posted capacitor schematic, the diode, when replaced with an LED will actually flash upon flyback, but the voltage across the capacitor drops to zeror, then bounces back to 0.045 volts from the original 1.3v

I thought this interesting, but it seems characteristic of electrolytic capacitors in general.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 23, 2010, 05:22:52 PM

@all

i just found a source for 3 inch tubes ... shipping tubes .

http://www.staples.ca/ENG/Catalog/cat_skuset.asp?CatIds=3%2C3608,17&name=CA_SK_Mailing+Storage+Tubes

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 23, 2010, 05:36:59 PM

IM BACK at the goldmines ...

tuneing them so far i can run 4 ultra brights full bright and pull 2.7 vdc from a 4 turn secondary ... at the same time ...

W

if i disconnect the leds output dubbles on secondary ...

so if this makes any sence to anyone i can recharge the b cap and run leds .. full bright and i will fill the ring with 4 turn coils to increase amprage ..

secondaries are 22 gage rs wire

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 23, 2010, 06:02:51 PM

@ jadaro2600

Quote from: jadaro2600 on January 23, 2010, 05:17:57 PM
does current fill a capacitor or does voltage?

Charge (electrons) fills the capacitor. The current is a measure of how many electrons are going into the capacitor and the voltage is a measure of how hard the electrons are being pushed into the capacitor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 23, 2010, 06:07:08 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 23, 2010, 05:36:59 PM

tuneing them so far i can run 4 ultra brights full bright and pull 2.7 vdc from a 4 turn secondary ... at the same time ...

if i disconnect the leds output dubbles on secondary ...

That seems normal to me except removing the leds usually does more than that.
Well actually it seems to me that each led accounts for about 7v at the secondary, but that can change.
So, to say it another way, I would expect that if you remove 4 leds, your output would increase by 28v and not 5.4v

Quoteso if this makes any sense to anyone i can recharge the b cap and run leds .

.
First, see if you can charge the bcap.

Quotefull bright and i will fill the ring with 4 turn coils to increase amperage ..

I do not know what this means.
Maybe you could explain?
What ring are you going to fill?
Are you planning to make a ring of secondary wires?

Why?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: mscoffman on January 23, 2010, 06:12:18 PM

Quote from: xee2 on January 23, 2010, 06:02:51 PM
@ jadaro2600

Charge (electrons) fills the capacitor. The current is a measure of how many electrons are going into the capacitor and the voltage is a measure of how hard the electrons are being pushed into the capacitor.

Agreed; The current is the count of electrons going into the capacitor.
The capacitance in Farads tells how the count of electrons is converted
into voltage stored by the capacitor. The internal voltage is averaged with the
external voltage through an external impedance to determine the
instantaneous circuit voltage and therefore the current. Circuits are always
formally analysed as a two sided deal even though we often don't think of
components that way.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 23, 2010, 07:07:21 PM

this little spider has 8 legs ...

and she is cralwing on my Bread board !

it lites the leds CUZ I WANT IT TO LOL

CUS I WILL USE IT TO ALSO RECHARGE A SECOND BATTERY OR SELF RUN SUPER ...

BLA BLA BLA .... SHEESH

8 OUTPUTS INDIVIDUALLY RECTIFIED TOO

THANK YOU !

w

OUT PUT IS 2.7VDC ... : )

WHO KNOWS I MAY DROP A MAGNET ON IT YET .... : )

MAYBE THE NEXT ONE IS THE SAME BUT RA CONFIG .... SO I GET TRUE AC ... HUMMMMM

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 23, 2010, 07:38:30 PM

all tested all done workes as it should leds FULL BRIGHT ..

8 OUTPUTS 2.7VDC - 2.8VDC

MY LEDS DO NOT DIM .... : )

THANK YOU

H

WHEN THEY BLINK THE BATTERY IS ALMOST DEAD .5V AND TIME FOR A NEW DEAD ONE ..... LOL ; )

its been running a while now and i added caps and more switches ... : )

took the caps off and the switches .. dont feel like winding more coils

any how hooked 2 bridges to gather for 5.6 vdc and hooked up b cap it CHARGES ...

slowly its a big cap ... lol but yes i can see it climb on my meter .001 every 15 -20 sec

maybe slower .. so i will tap 2 more and see if recharge time increases ... damm near killed the leds ... there still litt but not nearly as bright !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 24, 2010, 01:06:06 AM

this the scoope with the boost cap ...

and the spider .. i droped the leds ... right out ! since they bairly lite while chargeing the boost !

i hooked up all 8 bridges .. in groups of 2 so i have 4 feeds of around 6v there bouts.. feeding the boost ..

1 2n2222a no back tap at all ... transistor stays kool does not get hot to the point of distruction ... a good thing .. it takes a long time to charge even with 4 feeds i started to charge it 1 feed started at .048 vdc

i sinced added all the feeds im up to .340 vdc but it took like 3 plus hours to go that far ... i yi yi ...

needs improvement ... i tryed a 400vdc cap diode jt ... it took much longer to charge than a single feed from the spider!

so i guess i may do the ac spider .. and maybe run 2 from 1 battery ...

but according to previous tests all that is lost in this system are switching costs .... and the 2n2222a is a cheepie ... to run .. it is chargeing much faster with all 4 feeds .. but still not that fast .. in the time i typed this it has rasied another .010 bout 5 min or there bouts

W

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: zhak on January 24, 2010, 06:56:00 AM

Earth Battery
Hello friends, I have long hrnitsya archive this scheme, but there's no time to understand, give it to you. If sobiret, then wait for the results!
link : http://www.patlah.ru/etm/etm-24/a_energia/avtonom_energia/avtonom_energia.htm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: zhak on January 24, 2010, 07:03:49 AM

jeanna !
In this video, connecting 19 LEDS Joule Thief Lamp Modified resistors you DO NOT USE?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hc2B2rzthoA&feature=channel

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 24, 2010, 11:14:50 AM

the b cap charges ok ...

i have choosen to not share results any more regarding the crap cap ...

lol

make it better your self ... lol

MY DEVICES WILL NOT REQUIRE SUCH GARBAGE...

and just cuz i can fill them faster ... than most ...

o well

and i have it all public ... there for it shall never be taken from my hands...

and im a sue if i find things on the market useing my teck!

thank you !

william

you dont need to look far to see the reach of my HANDS ...

simply ask richard willis... : )

lets just say i made a simple coil ... with simple wire ... i can not use a 2n2222a on it as the instant i turn it on .. i blow em up...

clearly cuz the fly back is toooo much for the little cridders ...

: )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on January 24, 2010, 02:07:12 PM

Quote from: zhak on January 24, 2010, 06:56:00 AM
Earth Battery
Hello friends, I have long hrnitsya archive this scheme, but there's no time to understand, give it to you. If sobiret, then wait for the results!
link : http://www.patlah.ru/etm/etm-24/a_energia/avtonom_energia/avtonom_energia.htm

Hi zhak,
This is an interesting circuit. It's basically an antenna fed tuned circuit coupled to a booster circuit. Have you any idea of the outputs claimed? Kind regards

Title: Re: Toroid news
Post by: jeanna on January 24, 2010, 02:22:32 PM

Hi everybody,

I have just received an email from the first distributor of large toroids I contacted (MTL).
They say they never quoted me a price on the large one since they never had it.
They have the 2 1/2 inch one which I recently used.
It is excellent but not strong enough... maybe for the big cfl.
The one they have is epoxy coated and costs 12.40 so, in a way the 25 dollar minimum is easily met however the quote is for 3, so it is really around $36.
This is a retail sale and they have them in stock.
So if you can get over the price surprise, I do recommend this.

=====
".....Concerning the cost and availability of OW-46113-TC (uncoated core), we do
not stock this core either, but we do carry ZW-46113-TC (and we will have
this core on Feb 05,2010). If you require the uncoated version, Dexter
Magnetics does have this core in stock. If you are able to use the coated
version, your price is as follows:

Part # ZW-46113-TC

3-24 : 12.4000
25-49 : 9.8700 "
============

I apologize for all this, and I hope this can help those who seriously want to make some with this.

jeanna

PS they also said the following:

"With regards to OW48613TC, this is not a core that we normally stock. It is
available directly from the factory (but there is a high minimum order).
This core is also available from Dexter Magnetics or Allstar Magnetics (they
are Magnetics other distributors).

With regards to the price, this core is a very large (and expensive) core
and it is unlikely that it will be available for the $2 range as the factory
distributor price is well above this range. If you only require a few pcs to
test your design, you may be able to request samples from the factory."

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 24, 2010, 02:44:52 PM

Quote from: zhak on January 24, 2010, 07:03:49 AM
jeanna !
In this video, connecting 19 LEDS Joule Thief Lamp Modified resistors you DO NOT USE?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hc2B2rzthoA&feature=channel

Hi zhak,
I am trying to show people how easy it is to get usable light from a joule thief.

In that video, I have modified a light that has 19 leds so that all that remains is the 19 light bulbs.
So, yes, in that case, I removed the resistors, capacitors, and fuse from that light.
Doing this allows me to use a smaller toroid and transistor for the joule thief.

Are you able to get that "Lights of America" light bulb?
I have made other joule thief circuits for this same LoA bulb UNmodified, but when this bulb is unmodified, it works better with over 300 spikey volts, and that requires a different transistor [TIP31 or TIP3055] and possibly a bigger toroid.

thank you,

jeanna
google translator
made 2 translations, I think?:

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Ð¢Ð°Ðº Ñ‡Ñ,Ð¾, Ð´Ð°, Ð² Ñ,Ð°ÐºÐ¾Ð¼ ÑÐ»ÑƒÑ‡Ð°Ðµ, Ñ ÑƒÐ´Ð°Ð»Ð¸Ð» Ñ€ÐµÐ·Ð¸ÑÑ,Ð¾Ñ€Ñ‹, ÐºÐ¾Ð½Ð´ÐµÐ½ÑÐ°Ñ,Ð¾Ñ€Ñ‹, Ð¿Ñ€ÐµÐ´Ð¾Ñ...Ñ€Ð°Ð½Ð¸Ñ,ÐµÐ»Ð¸, Ð¸ Ñ Ñ,Ð¾Ð³Ð¾ ÑÐ²ÐµÑ,Ð°.
ÐÑ,Ð¾Ð¼ Ð¿Ð¾Ð·Ð²Ð¾Ð»ÑÐµÑ, Ð¼Ð½Ðµ Ð¸ÑÐ¿Ð¾Ð»ÑŒÐ·Ð¾Ð²Ð°Ñ,ÑŒ Ð¼ÐµÐ½ÑŒÑˆÐ¸Ðµ Ñ,Ð¾Ñ€Ð¾Ð¸Ð´Ð° Ð¸ Ñ,Ñ€Ð°Ð½Ð·Ð¸ÑÑ,Ð¾Ñ€Ð¾Ð² Ð½Ð° Ð´Ð¶Ð¾ÑƒÐ»ÑŒ Ð²Ð¾Ñ€Ð°.

ÐœÐ¾Ð¶ÐµÑ,Ðµ Ð»Ð¸ Ð²Ñ‹ Ð¿Ð¾Ð»ÑƒÑ‡Ð¸Ñ,Ðµ, Ñ‡Ñ,Ð¾ "ÐžÐ³Ð½Ð¸ ÐÐ¼ÐµÑ€Ð¸ÐºÐ¸" Ð»Ð°Ð¼Ð¿Ð¾Ñ‡ÐºÑƒ?
Ð¯ ÑÐ´ÐµÐ»Ð°Ð» Ð´Ñ€ÑƒÐ³Ð¾Ð¹ Ð´Ð¶Ð¾ÑƒÐ»ÑŒ ÑÑ...ÐµÐ¼Ñ‹ Ð²Ð¾Ñ€Ð° Ð·Ð° ÑÑ,Ð¾Ñ, Ð¶Ðµ Ð»Ð°Ð¼Ð¿Ð° ÐžÐ´Ð¾Ð±Ñ€ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ Ð½ÐµÐ¸Ð·Ð¼ÐµÐ½ÐµÐ½Ð½Ð¾Ð¹, Ð½Ð¾ Ð¿Ñ€Ð¸ Ð½ÐµÐ¸Ð·Ð¼ÐµÐ½ÐµÐ½Ð½Ñ‹Ñ... ÑÑ,Ð° Ð»Ð°Ð¼Ð¿Ð¾Ñ‡ÐºÐ°, Ð¾Ð½Ð° Ð»ÑƒÑ‡ÑˆÐµ Ñ€Ð°Ð±Ð¾Ñ,Ð°ÐµÑ, Ñ Ð±Ð¾Ð»ÐµÐµ Ñ‡ÐµÐ¼ 300 Spikey Ð²Ð¾Ð»ÑŒÑ,, Ð° ÑÑ,Ð¾ Ñ,Ñ€ÐµÐ±ÑƒÐµÑ, Ð´Ñ€ÑƒÐ³Ð¾Ð³Ð¾ Ñ,Ñ€Ð°Ð½Ð·Ð¸ÑÑ,Ð¾Ñ€Ð° [TIP31 Ð¸Ð»Ð¸ TIP3055] Ð¸, Ð²Ð¾Ð·Ð¼Ð¾Ð¶Ð½Ð¾, Ð±Ð¾Ð»ÑŒÑˆÐ¸Ð¹ Ñ,Ð¾Ñ€Ð¾Ð¸Ð´.

Ð¡Ð¿Ð°ÑÐ¸Ð±Ð¾,

Ð"Ð¶Ð¸Ð½Ð½
Privet Zhak,
YA pytayusÊ¹ pokazatÊ¹ lyudyam, kak legko mozhno poluchitÊ¹ ispolÊ¹zovatÊ¹sya svet ot dzhoulÊ¹ vora.

V etom vidyeo, ya izmenil svet, kotoryiÌ† imyeet 19 svetodiodov, chtoby vse, chto ostaetÂ·sya 19 lampochek.
Tak chto, da, v takom sluchae, ya udalil rezistory, kondensatory, predohraniteli, i s togo sveta.
Etom pozvolyaet mne ispolÊ¹zovatÊ¹ menÊ¹shie toroida i traÂ·ezistorov na dzhoulÊ¹ vora.

Mozhete li vy poluchite, chto "Ogni Ameriki" lampochku?
YA sdelal drugoiÌ† dzhoulÊ¹ shemy vora za etot zhe lampa Odobreniya nyeizmenennoiÌ†, no pri nyeizmenennyh eta lampochka, ona luchshe rabotaet s bolyee chem 300 Spikey volÊ¹t, a eto trebuet drugogo traÂ·ezistora [TIP31 ili TIP3055] i, vozmozhno, bolÊ¹shiiÌ† toroid.

Spasibo,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 24, 2010, 03:49:26 PM

LIKE I SAID I WILL NO LONGER CONDUCT BUISNESS US SIDE ... THANK YOU

YOU CAN THANK GADGET ..

REGARDS!

I NEED NO BIG CORE ...

THANK YOU !

2 questions b4 i post my next video ..

xee#2 i will ask you first!

why the large plastic coated wires?

j do you use coated wires ... : )

of course i have the correct answer!

regards!

share if you care ...

W

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FobNbMuoGbQ

thanks robbie!

aint nuttin like the REAL THING ! : ) BABY...

LITTLE BOY BLUE AND NO MORE MAN ON THE MOON!

NEW MOON ..

WELCOME K ; )

NUTTIN LIKE KICKING THE BOY WHEN HE IS DOWN ... A GADGET !

NUTTING LIKE THE BOY GROWING UP TO A GIANT ... AND STEPPING ON YA !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 24, 2010, 04:57:47 PM

im not the kinda guy who likes to waite for my answers that is CLEARLY PROVEN

so

REGARDS !

H

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHgGkfnAqzs

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 24, 2010, 05:06:59 PM

Quote
j do you use coated wires ... : )

of course i have the correct answer!

regards!

share if you care ...

W

Sometimes, usually in the beginning to test if something looks good enough to pursue.
When I make a final build, I prefer to use thickly coated mag wire from gobrushless.com.
Still, sometimes I don't bother to change from the first test, for instance the big gold has the primary made with 24 awg telephone wire, but the gold secondary pickup is 330T of 26 awg (I think26) mag wire.

Why do you want to know this?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 24, 2010, 05:22:31 PM

Quote from: jeanna on January 24, 2010, 05:06:59 PM
Sometimes, usually in the beginning to test if something looks good enough to pursue.
When I make a final build, I prefer to use thickly coated mag wire from gobrushless.com.
Still, sometimes I don't bother to change from the first test, for instance the big gold has the primary made with 24 awg telephone wire, but the gold secondary pickup is 330T of 26 awg (I think26) mag wire.

Why do you want to know this?

jeanna

CARE FOR ME TO SPEEK OF MY PANCAKE COILS ??!! !!!!!!

H

from popper to PRINCE! and PRINCE TO popper i did it all with silver iron and copper ...

: )

if the hat dont fit the one it was bought for .... BETTER GIVE IT TO THE ONE IT DOES!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 24, 2010, 05:50:45 PM

AND MY DEVICES ARE MADE FOR FLYING AND THATS JUST WHAT THEYLL DO ...

AND 1 OF THEASE DAYS THEY WILL FLY RIGHT PAST YOU !

: )

NEXT I LAY MY KALI ME TO FAME!

ON THIS SUCH FLYING DEVICE

AUDIO DRIVEN PLASMA WHAT EVER BE THE FREQ ...

REGARDS!

C & H

WAITEING ON RA! TO FILL IN ... AND IS AND T

COURSE T IS QUICK! LOL

WHERE IS MY GUY TAR MAN! LMAO ...

WELCOM TEAM TO BROADWAY!

: )

brings up a song ..

take a BOW!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3UjJ4wKLkg

lol

you c guytair man is fine tuneing it !

!: )

HEY MISTER GUYTAR MAN PLAY A SONG 4 MEE!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ol920-6VBVc

GOT YOUR ROCK ON YET ?? TIGER TAIL TODAY! : )

ME MAKES A NUTTER RA! HA! LMAO HUMMMMMM HOW TO MAKE IT SINGGGG..... OOOOOOHHHHHHMMMMMMM

LOL !

: )

TESLAS TRICK ... ; ) KICK FLICK AND RESONANT RIZE TO H DINE BABY! VDAY ? : )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 24, 2010, 07:09:07 PM

One inch toroid test.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on January 24, 2010, 07:25:58 PM

It would be nice to know the voltage / current characteristics of mainstream CFL tubes in their various sizes, that way we know what we're fighting against.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 24, 2010, 08:01:08 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on January 24, 2010, 07:25:58 PM
It would be nice to know the voltage / current characteristics of mainstream CFL tubes in their various sizes, that way we know what we're fighting against.

HEY

think of those toroides in the 3 ring clustor .... as MAGIC MAGNETS.... WITH HOLES IN EM !

LOL

W

im a pull an elvis! im all shook up and dont ya walk on my blue swayed shoes!

when you hot your HOT ... and when your not your not!

: )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqsX7xQWRoU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1Ond-OwgU8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bzewk-FMgS0

when you hott you sweatting! lol : )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 24, 2010, 08:47:32 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 24, 2010, 05:22:31 PM
CARE FOR ME TO SPEEK OF MY PANCAKE COILS ??!! !!!!!!
H
from popper to PRINCE! and PRINCE TO popper i did it all with silver iron and copper ...

: )
if the hat dont fit the one it was bought for .... BETTER GIVE IT TO THE ONE IT DOES!

IST,
Please explain what you are talking about.

WHAT did you do with silver, iron, and copper?
Pancake coils are made with 2 wires and you have just names 3 metals.
Please make the effort to be clear.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 24, 2010, 08:58:16 PM

just guessing here but you might want to RINGGGGGGG IT ?

lol

ist!

dont make me go US POSTAL.... YOULL END UP WITH CHIPPED TOROIDES ... 1/8 BOX .... LMAO

I THINK YOU SHOULD SMACK THE COPPER TILL IT RADIATES ... PICK UP FROM SILVER AND IRON ...

and if ya do it RIGHT YOU CAN UTILIZE THE FLY BACK FLUX CAP TIME TRAVEL UNIT ...

THANK YOU !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on January 24, 2010, 09:04:02 PM

IST, you are so cryptic.

I was referring to the standard characteristics, not our own. Those which are output by the various manufacturers of CFL ballasts and what not.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 24, 2010, 09:17:29 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 24, 2010, 08:58:16 PM
just guessing here but you might want to RINGGGGGGG IT ?
lol

ist!

dont make me go US POSTAL.... YOULL END UP WITH CHIPPED TOROIDES ... 1/8 BOX .... LMAO

I THINK YOU SHOULD SMACK THE COPPER TILL IT RADIATES ... PICK UP FROM SILVER AND IRON ...

and if ya do it RIGHT YOU CAN UTILIZE THE FLY BACK FLUX CAP TIME TRAVEL UNIT ...

THANK YOU !

I think I am about to give up.
Ringgg
us postal
smacking copper???
flyback flux cap T T unit

more than lucky, I am afraid.
sorry,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 24, 2010, 09:24:17 PM

ok

J

truely do you want me to fully explain it ?

W?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 24, 2010, 10:09:29 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 24, 2010, 09:24:17 PM
ok

J

truely do you want me to fully explain it ?

W?

William , Wise up bros , she is the only one that still cares to try to get what you are saying , others don't care for page after page of cryptic garbage.

If you have a point to make , then do , you may have stopped school early , but i am still sure they showed you how to construct a phrase .

Don't go nuts on my , but please think , i had to learn English to be part of this group(do the same) , and there are no translator for IST language , so its a lost cause .

If it was up to me i would simply erase the last few pages of non sense .

If you really are a valuable part of any team , don't go nuts and break everything like a 12 year old , but think about it ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 24, 2010, 10:14:33 PM

im not about to break anything ..

only move up to the next phase of learning ... cuz i have learned the learning never ends .. but i think

to charge those b caps at any good speed this must be properly utilized!

W

the only thing im breaking in is my next coil ..

i have some new materials combos and results i may share .. that was 1 of many ..

so i lay down to go to bed i can not ! so i get up ... and arize to my surprize blood on my left hand

looks like it says 1 love !

this aint funny ... now i got it on my right hand .... this is dry blood ....

wtf! both my thumbs my first left finger and my right 2nd finger nuckel ..

yo i aint bleading ...

odd! i never fell a sleep eather ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yd8jh9QYfEs&NR=1

i wont stop the music ... were gonna sun bathe in the suns rayz and dream!

the future as it remains yet un for seen!

PEACE!

814

I NOW WILL TELL YOU WHAT THE BLOOD MEANS ...

it is the placement of my next rings... i just placed a gold tiger stripe ring tonight on my right hand ... 3 finger ...

: )

leaves 1 finger .... : 0

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 25, 2010, 01:28:40 AM

Tube lights with no wires at all.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 25, 2010, 01:39:57 AM

That is really cool, xee2.

I think this is not a simple jt with secondary, but is this one with the camera trigger coil?
I do not recognize how you are drawing your circuit.
Corse, it could just be the soup! ;D
HV potato battery in a soup can. hmm.

;D

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 25, 2010, 01:51:02 AM

@ jeanna

This is one of a series of tests. The first post of the series showed a photo of the trigger coil and gave URL for source.

EDIT: the output from the trigger coil is AC, I know that is something you are interested in.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 25, 2010, 02:42:54 AM

@all

Some pictures of my last toy , mostly how to make a coil .

I am making a dual layer primary , the first layer is on , i will rewind it i am about 6 inch short .

To give you a idea of the coil .

Tesla pancake , he showed us on layer , but he had the idea that people can't just eat one , this coil is like a 5 turn 16 layer , so 16 pancakes on a toroid , makes one vortex coil .

New i will had the second winding X counter vortex , after that you had some secondary around .

And maybe a surrounding like a regular toroid , just to enclose it in copper.

Tube 50mm , smaller one.

Maybe wait before i get results before building one like this.

But i am sure it will work.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 25, 2010, 03:09:33 AM

@ Mk1

Like this?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 25, 2010, 03:10:22 AM

nice mk1 ... i have one similar but not the same built of steel core ...

look what i whipped up to night ..

ist

#38 silver wire secondary

: )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 25, 2010, 03:21:34 AM

Quote from: xee2 on January 25, 2010, 03:09:33 AM
@ Mk1

Like this?

@ xee

Yep , Just mark the numbers of turn you need , make a 45 degree angle to determine the length of the tube.

The last one was a 36 degree spacing , and 45 degree angle .

Most of the prior ones i have made only made 3 turns per revolution (astronomical definition) the result got i bit random .

I like my new technique , make a 45 degree stencil in paper , chose your spacing , take stencil make 45 degree mark , cut where the 45 and the next division meet.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 25, 2010, 03:41:46 AM

@ Mk1

Then I assume the base and collector coils are like this. Are they close together as in this drawing or spaced far apart?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 25, 2010, 03:59:00 AM

Quote from: xee2 on January 25, 2010, 03:41:46 AM
@ Mk1

Then I assume the base and collector coils are like this. Are they close together as in this drawing or spaced far apart?

You got it , you are supposed to leave room between the wires .

The first coil i have made , most of the wires i got are too short , reason for the bigger gap.

The last one i have posted , did not have enough space , but i will test it anyway , we will never know otherwise.

The one i have posted lighting a filament bulb was like that , the 2 coil parallel to each other (like your drawing) .

This one one wire going one way the other 45 degree the other way making a x in the middle. this will be my second unit built like that.

I also edited my last post , with picture.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 25, 2010, 04:03:17 AM

@ Mk1

Half way between like this?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 25, 2010, 04:08:26 AM

@xee

More like this , this is type 2 .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 25, 2010, 06:38:06 AM

@all

Here is a picture , i redid the first layer , i did it 3 times , the tube is all crooked now , i will start over after i bit of rest .

But i also made a video . It is coupling nicely with the bigger coil.

And seems more directional.

http://www.youtube.com/user/abramrk1#p/a/u/0/OyiY-N1Ha5A

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on January 25, 2010, 07:47:12 AM

Does the smaller coil have just one wire?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 25, 2010, 07:56:27 AM

Quote from: stprue on January 25, 2010, 07:47:12 AM
Does the smaller coil have just one wire?

For now yes it only has one , but i will turn it into a mini TPJT pretty soon .

The big unit has 4 primary , i did it that way to study the effect of having more turn on the base coil , or collector coil (by putting them in series), or the mass (by putting them in parallel ).

2n3055 doesn't work good , 2n2222 2n3904 are fine.

You need at least 2 primary , connect both of them to the positive rail , one to the base the other to the collector , if it doesn't work turn one wire.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 25, 2010, 09:09:44 AM

hey mk1 what happins if you throw the card board away ?

lol

end up with my pancakes ?

ist!

AND IF YOU WERE TO USE PLASTIC ? HIGH FREQ SHADOW EFFECT ?

W

VERRY MUCH AS I PREVISOULY EXPLAINED IN MY VIDEO ...

tell me.... am i wrong ?

i have a LARGE PANCAKE I MADE ... FEW YEARS BACK ...

IST CONVERTOR INVERTOR ... INFACT MANY YEARS BACK ...

: )

maybe when i rediscovered the npn pnp ...

maybe

that was some time b4 my cap charger ... ; )

the ones that needed to know plainly know ....

: )

or i guess i would not be allowd to speek of it ...

what ya tink?

lol

stolen troid ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0n8uP4qZIs

HK 888 rodgers that control.... : )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 25, 2010, 09:58:58 AM

so i checked the boost cap ...

lol

i have put 1 dead one throught it and i have now put 1 full one throught it ...

my b cap voltage has climbed !

to 1.110

hummmmmm

ist !

poor results ... eh?

aswell i find your statement ! about my choosen english ... to be YOUR PROBLEM NOT MINE

THANK YOU ...

i dont change my ways to suite your needs!

regards!

perhaps you should FIND AN IST TRANSLATOR ...

LOL

i think you will find thousands .... : )

some one looking through the big screen ?
at the hotel ?

you see my SHOCK YA ROCKS .... ARE GREAT TRANSLATORS ...

: )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on January 25, 2010, 11:24:13 AM

Quote from: jeanna on January 24, 2010, 08:47:32 PM
IST,
Please explain what you are talking about.

WHAT did you do with silver, iron, and copper?
Pancake coils are made with 2 wires and you have just names 3 metals.
Please make the effort to be clear.

thank you,

jeanna

Jeanna

Don't you remember .......he explained it a few weeks ago.

If I remember right he does not need explanations or schematics because his circuits all work the same.
They work like a TPU
They work like a TV>
They work like a washing machine .
They work like a cave mans stick.
Tick Tick BOOM.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on January 25, 2010, 11:33:19 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 25, 2010, 07:56:27 AM

For now yes it only has one , but i will turn it into a mini TPJT A soon .

The big unit has 4 primary , i did it that way to study the effect of having more turn on the base coil , or collector coil (by putting them in series), or the mass (by putting them in parallel ).

2n3055 doesn't work good , 2n2222 2n3904 are fine.

You need at least 2 primary , connect both of them to the positive rail , one to the base the other to the collector , if it doesn't work turn one wire.

Mark

Thank you for the info's Mark!

P.S. What guages are you using for your primary and secondary?

Thanks...Stew

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 25, 2010, 12:02:18 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on January 25, 2010, 11:24:13 AM
Jeanna

Don't you remember .......he explained it a few weeks ago.

If I remember right he does not need explanations or schematics because his circuits all work the same.
They work like a TPU
They work like a TV>
They work like a washing machine .
They work like a cave mans stick.
Tick Tick BOOM.

gary

THANK YOU GARRY ...

MUCH RESPECT!

FROM 1 G TO ANOTHER!

I MADE SOME EAR RINGS ...

WANT TO SEE EM ?

LOL

W

1 B THE PURPLE ROCK ANOTHER BE THE CLEAR ONE ... : )

cuz you cant rock da body with out the body rocks!

lol G brings up a song PEBBLES AND BAM BAM!!

MEET THE FLINSTONES!

WE LL HAVE A YABA DABA DO TIME! : )

YOU SEE THEY FIT ON MY LEFT EAR AND DUBBLE AS EAR PLUGS ...

GATOR a while ago draws me a pic and says beads daddy! ; )

BUT DADDY LIKES RINGS TOO!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 25, 2010, 12:51:48 PM

i have a question why did sm say radio shack and the HARDWARE STORE....

MENTION BAILING WIRE .. but not the romex 3 14 ga?

thick wire thick dielectric .. and output ....

in 1 wire ....

: )

hey its even rectangular ...

hey sounds like im tuneing it ... : )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 25, 2010, 02:27:29 PM

honestly just cuz i cant quit comeing up with ideas ...

here is the latest ...

just thunk it up !

cap imballance flux drive HOVVER system!

THIS IS WHAT MOM LOCKED UP ... AS A RIDDLE LAST TIME I SAW HER!

I POSTED THE PICS ...

kids got me a UFO for CHRISTMAS.... WHAT YA THINK THEY WERE KIDDING ?

LOL

W

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: zhak on January 25, 2010, 02:52:08 PM

JT nuchillis we do!
But where to get a little alternative inergii 1.2 -1.5 volts?
Wood + ground? Air + ground?
We used steel nails for wood, copper rod 40 cm for the land, 25m copper wire for the air
Found in the Internet scheme for the application of air + scheme (CIRCUIT) + ground, but the result is zero. :(
Tried tree + scheme (CIRCUIT) + ground zero result. :(
Wood + ground 0.2 volts! :D
Air + ground 0! :(

What do I do that correct?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 25, 2010, 03:24:32 PM

a few days ago i did a basic plasma refresher cource ... passed with my eyes closed ... : )

3vdc supply ... no transistor .... i can even wobble it if i want to ... but it burns things up ...

so with the super high speed plasma ... and some tuned plates .. ground and air becomes intresting ....

W

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 25, 2010, 03:39:49 PM

@ist

Ist knows everything , because aliens come and visit him Yep he told me .

Ist offers money for work , actually i seals every idea on the net and them claim them as is, because frankly he is a moron , i spoke to the guy many times, i know.

Some think you are a troll , i use to think everybody had the right to speak .

Ist is not a troll , he is just a kid that could not finish high school , he thinks he is brilliant , and he is quite a sculpture artist , because that is all he makes ...

he doesn't have enough focus the right clearly , because it to hard , and not his style .

And that way he can fool people for a while .

I tried to tell you , to wise up , you brush it off . so be it .

Ist has a big ego , things his ego prevents him to know , first he is a child ( so don't bother if he tell you to grow up.

ist second even if he could explain it to you , you would not understand(he would not undurstand)

I am sorry dude , but really find a job , stop feeding of of other s work.

It doesn't work anymore .

But my favorite one , i can't post it they will break my pc screen .

I am a patient man , but that is where i draw the line.

Good i wish i had the power to put you on read only , until you learn how to interact with adults.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on January 25, 2010, 04:46:55 PM

@Mk1

Here is my coil! It has 2 primaries with 2 sides going to the positive rail and then 1 going to the base and 1 going to the collector of the 2N3904 and the emitter going to the negative rail. The secondary is 5-6 winds of lamp cord and shows 1.1-1.5vAC...It wont light anything???? Also the base and collector turn amounts are different from each other...not sure how many! Any advice?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 25, 2010, 04:55:49 PM

@stprue

Nice looking coil.

Ok , first i only did this with cardboard tubes so far , in case its a material issue.

Ok , so you connected it like a regular jt , then reversed one wire if it did not work ?

Dose a led work at the transistor ?

Edit , lamp cord lol , you need more turns on the secondary and try i bit smaller wire not covered. to get the wire closer to the primary.

The field around the toroid is not big , that is not how it powers the secondary.

try different size secondary , put more then one at a time .

This a jt , 1.5 , not 9v ... soon

Also try a pot for base resistor (tune it to best performance), also make sure the transistor is good , one of my 2n3904 did not work good either .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 25, 2010, 05:40:40 PM

@ Mark,
Would you please give the number of turns and the base resistor amounts.
These kinds of things really help with the replications. It saves time for everybody and we can step forward from where you take us, then we can tell you the details, them you can step forward etc.
I think this is a kind of nice model for us to practice on our new planet. (IMO)
Anyway, it will help me a lot.

thank you.

Oh, do you think the angle matters much?

The 45 degree was very clearly stated earlier in agentgates design, I think, but, and when I looked at the pvc connectors, I didn't think they had the right proportions for the 45 degree angle.

BTW, I like the way you explained how to get there. I had a mathematical model, based on 6 divisions not 10. I think this is cool the way you have described it.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on January 25, 2010, 06:02:05 PM

A 5'' outer diameter PVC plumbing tube like mine has 64 squares of graphing paper! Easy to wind 45 degrees and align properly! Good luck Jeanna ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on January 25, 2010, 06:02:43 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 25, 2010, 04:55:49 PM
@stprue

Nice looking coil.

Ok , first i only did this with cardboard tubes so far , in case its a material issue.

Ok , so you connected it like a regular jt , then reversed one wire if it did not work ?

Dose a led work at the transistor ?

Edit , lamp cord lol , you need more turns on the secondary and try i bit smaller wire not covered. to get the wire closer to the primary.

The field around the toroid is not big , that is not how it powers the secondary.

try different size secondary , put more then one at a time .

This a jt , 1.5 , not 9v ... soon

Also try a pot for base resistor (tune it to best performance), also make sure the transistor is good , one of my 2n3904 did not work good either .

Thanks for the info Mark! it will help me!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 25, 2010, 06:07:06 PM

J

ITS A GREAT PRACTICE MODEL...

and mk1 ...

clearly you dont wear your rocks yet ,,

and no disrespect!

you will too ... as will every human !

i simply share ... i dont troll the trolls get pissed when i share ...

not any more ..

and adults i spoke to many sir ...

perhaps parents of the adults

W

i re read your words mk1 .. and the hostility you burnt in with them !

grow up already!

your ON LEARN ONLY .. THANK YOU !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 25, 2010, 06:15:52 PM

Quote from: stprue on January 25, 2010, 06:02:05 PM
A 5'' outer diameter PVC plumbing tube like mine has 64 squares of graphing paper! Easy to wind 45 degrees and align properly! Good luck Jeanna ;D

Thanks Stew!

I cut a piece of toilet roll at the beginning of this, but I don't think that is big enough for this.
I do have poster paper, and a large can, so I think I will do the 10 divisions 45 degree angle thing Mark posted first.

(I NEED to make a bedini so I can recharge some big batteries, but this is so much more fun!)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 25, 2010, 06:16:02 PM

Yucca

If we take two speakers like the ones the kids are kicking around the living room and we bolt them together. When one speaker is driven the second speaker will generate. If the generated voltage is stored in a capacitor that is resonant with the speaker coil then the receiver speaker will ring down. As it is ringing down electrically it will be moving mechanically. The speaker upon which the initial pulse was imposed on will now be generating an echo of the original input. I think it would be best to put a sawtooth signal into the first speaker as it is rich in harmonics. You can go with the spike also. If it doesnt work the kids can use it to play spaceships with or something. They can put it on it's edge and use it for a top also. The magnets will be spinning around oh here I go again.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 25, 2010, 06:27:13 PM

@jeanna

I am beginning to think cardboard tube are better .

Now i have posted 4 different example of coil all have different jt coil numbers .

When i made the first one , my mind set was , since you could make jt with nothing but wire given that you have enough it will work .

Then prototype one , first picture. 18 turns 3 revolution , angle about 15 degree 1v output per turn of secondary.

Second prototype ,next picture, i tried to space the winding and put some more turns , 11 turn base , 11 turn collector , 45 degree , pickup coil 22 turns . Those modification raised the voltage.

Next picture , i wanted more turns , and revolutions , my aim was 36/36, never got it right , so i ended up with 18/18. This raised the volts and is basically the one showing all the filament and motor running and in the movies . 3 turns per revolution at 45 degree.

You don't need to go further this is the one ...Then i was happy ...

I changed the windings on the second prototype forth picture.
Worked great too.

Then got back at prototype 3 , i really wanted 36/36 total 72 . So i made 2 more jt coil , I DON'T USE THEM AT THE MOMENT , i broke my bulb , i will resume the coil exploration when i have i new bulb . ( but so far the bulb got brighter when i added a second coil in series on the base , but no change on the collector.

So i give you , no definite numbers because all tubes are different , and if you can't cut it then you can't really replicate correctly , plus real replication needs cardboard tube .

Also the little one is the 5 laps per revolution with the green wire i got 15 revolution in so 5*15 , but on the copper coil 5*24 so 24 layer pancake .
it is just connected to the led , it also light white one easy , i did not show it because the red one starts lighting at 1.8v it makes it more precises , it can sense weaker fields.

I hope this helps , for all its worth it works almost identical to a regular joule thief , but i feel this one is more powerful then any i have seen or made before.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 25, 2010, 06:30:30 PM

PAGE 808 BABY!

: )

THE FUN HAS YET TO BEGIN !

im just kicking a few to FRONT STAGE ...

wakie

AND GADGET

is always welcome as are all !

i always for give ... but i will make a point of you first !

regards!

H

cuz we bee rocking rythem till the DISCO breaks!

as in well ...

let you live it .... : )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 25, 2010, 06:36:52 PM

@Mk1

Thanks for this nice review.
I understand you like the last one best I mean the one withthe 6 turns of white and blue secondary??.
Do you think the secondary inside makes it any better?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Rosphere on January 25, 2010, 06:37:10 PM

Thank you to jeanna, Mk1, xee2, crowclaw, stprue, kooler, and others who have all worked hard to make clear, informative, technical posts, which allow others to replicate your work, learn new things, and practice new skills.

I just replicated crowclaw's latest offering, (the Helmholtz-coil looking air-core JT.)

I got two white LEDs to burn bright at several inches above the lower coil assembly, (which ran off a 1.0V AA battery.)

I wish I had not lent out my 'good' camera, I would like to show a few photos.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 25, 2010, 06:46:55 PM

Quote from: jeanna on January 25, 2010, 06:36:52 PM
@Mk1

Thanks for this nice review.
I understand you like the last one best I mean the one withthe 6 turns of white and blue secondary??.
Do you think the secondary inside makes it any better?

thank you,

jeanna

I don't know , but it sure works well , but its not the same as the outer rim .

But now we have pickup coil that feed from different fields , if they are not feeding from the same field , then maybe they load each other up.

I still have not tested it fully , but this was made to be a new prototype a smaller size , to raise the freq to the best working jt range.

I tried it for fun .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 25, 2010, 08:24:17 PM

well pulled out the old pulse motor ...

AGIN ....

this time 1 reed 1 coil 1 aa and i can make it recharge its self

o boy ...

lol

pic?

do this simple test i have said 1000 times over the years .. it will teach you ~

W

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 25, 2010, 08:28:17 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 25, 2010, 08:24:17 PM
well pulled out the old pulse motor ...

AGIN ....

this time 1 reed 1 coil 1 aa and i can make it recharge its self

o boy ...

lol

pic?

do this simple test i have said 1000 times over the years .. it will teach you ~

W

What ever as long as you post it in a pulse motor tread...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 25, 2010, 08:31:43 PM

your getting on my nerves fool!

its a jt

it runs on my kick

it is what ya just built

dozzie ru ?

it aint the SCHOOL GIRL MOTOR 4 NUTTIN !

sharpen your pencel ...

if your gonna swim in the streem!

hey ya know ... i turned the MOTOR OFF 10 MIN AGO AFTER 2 MIN OF RUN ....

its still spinning now ...

ty

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 25, 2010, 08:41:58 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 25, 2010, 08:31:43 PM
your getting on my nerves fool!

its a jt

it runs on my kick

it is what ya just built

dozzie ru ?

it aint the SCHOOL GIRL MOTOR 4 NUTTIN !

sharpen your pencel ...

if your gonna swim in the streem!

Now you know how others feel around here...

Nice detail , i like the schematic , what editor are you using ?

Looks real nice anyway , so simple everybody can make it ...

A lesson to you dude , genius is not a style , you either are or not .

I genius would understand the need to get his point to others , not your case here .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 25, 2010, 08:43:56 PM

MY CASE AND POINT IS QUITE CLEAR!

LEARN IT ... I DID ...

REGARDS!

H

MASTER INVENTOR ...

AND YOUR STANDING ON MY 808 PAGE LOOKING SILLY STANDING OUTSIDE MY HOUSE!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 25, 2010, 08:44:51 PM

IST:

Please try to remain on topic here.

Thank you,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 25, 2010, 09:21:50 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 25, 2010, 06:46:55 PM

I don't know , but it sure works well , but its not the same as the outer rim .

But now we have pickup coil that feed from different fields , if they are not feeding from the same field , then maybe they load each other up.

I still have not tested it fully , but this was made to be a new prototype a smaller size , to raise the freq to the best working jt range.

And when you test it, you test for
volts and you check to see if you can
light a filament bulb, then you
move something around to see where the field is responding with respect to the light that is on something?
3 tests.
This is so interesting.
Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 25, 2010, 09:38:29 PM

Quote from: jeanna on January 25, 2010, 09:21:50 PM
And when you test it, you test for
volts and you check to see if you can
light a filament bulb, then you
move something around to see where the field is responding with respect to the light that is on something?
3 tests.
This is so interesting.
Thank you,

jeanna

You would have to see it , i no longer have a working bulb , but i could run a 12 v motor , and the filament bulb at the same time and a led at 1.8 v witch on a regular jt would have dropped the the voltage down and stop everything , but not on this one...

The small coil is nice but its only to learn about the big one . I it to be completed , but i tried it as a pickup coil and it worked nicely ,it is made from an scott towell type roll 15mm length.(i will take some reading on it later on)

I plan on making a full functioning unit , having a smaller diameter it should work better with the transistor freq response, my bigger one would benefit from a slower freq , even low in the audio spectrum .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 25, 2010, 10:40:49 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 25, 2010, 10:19:57 PM

AND mk1 if you READ 1 FRACTION OF MY WORK .... YOU WILL SEE I HAVE POSTED THIS SAME UNIT ...

LONG TIME B4 THE JT CAME ALONG ....

guess ya didnt know!

eh!

GUESS NOW YOU DO !

Yes i know you did this a long time ago , i sure won't learn about it from you ...

We have worked hard , to make this a great tread , but you try to destroy it ?

Why are you here , since its not to help anyone , because i have seen what your help is all about , you are clearly here for serving your self , not helping earth of mankind , give me a break.

The nice thing about , my inflammatory post is i did not have to imagine anything ... i just told the truth , i don't feel bad at all .You has it coming.

Now we know why the jt gets discredited , because of you .

I am not saying you have nothing , but you are unable to share anything .

We have at least 1000 pages of ist nonsense . So that is about 1/4 of the stuff you made , either crap or stolen from someone else and badly done.

1000 ways 1000 ways of doing it bad ...

If you had half of what you say you have , you would know i am wright .

Btw the last one is a small mod on a circuit by lidmotor , yep you learned it ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 26, 2010, 12:03:32 AM

Hum , i was sure there was a ist post , check mate you say , yes .

Its hard to say witch color you are playing .

I give up.

;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 26, 2010, 12:35:18 AM

IST:

Any more off-topic posts will be removed. IF this continues you will be put on read only.

Thank you

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 26, 2010, 12:50:03 AM

mk1
a little more on topic
have you tryied running your primary and base winds in the same direction as your secondary turns
many months ago i notice i got better results with less secondary turns and ma's draw
what i had was 3 layers of 5 turns each for primary and base.. but with only 2-3 turns secondary i could charge a cap real fast to 80-90 volts with around 100 ma's
but it was a 4.56'' coil
i could try to make another one and see if i can get the amp draw down to a nice setting..

robbie

ps....... thanks bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 26, 2010, 01:03:11 AM

Quote from: kooler on January 26, 2010, 12:50:03 AM
mk1
a little more on topic
have you tryied running your primary and base winds in the same direction as your secondary turns

robbie

Yes Yes topic Good .

i can't picture what you are saying , please explain more.

But the idea of the gate coil is for no direct coupling , its so hard to explain
is like tying to make a bad transformer , since there is no coupling secondary are under no direct coupling that way you can have many secondary loaded and maintain the push of the pulse.

Anyway quite educative , there is so much potential , i barely sleep at all .

It doesn't behave like any transformer i know.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 26, 2010, 01:04:26 AM

jeanna
on my jt that runs below the 1 ma mark it is weird
when i get to 0.54 ma's the secondary wires go negative ..(both wires) and light the leds
8 leds to half or better brightness..
i just thought that was something neat..
you guys probably already know this stuff.. but i am still learning since i got this scope..

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 26, 2010, 02:03:14 AM

@kooler

i hope you did see my answer posted between your post.

@jeanna

I tested the small coil it reads around 17 volts at the optimum location , the led a clearly brighter going one way but the meter shows the same voltage.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 26, 2010, 03:37:08 AM

congrats mark ....

you have a nice coil ..

i have been playing my b cap wich is still chargeing on the 8 legged spider ...

im up to 1.491vdc in the bat cap second battery is drained to .5 vdc ..

i will add another tommorow after i recharge them ..

i have also been running my low voltage good speed pulse motor ..

runs on an aa ...

i will make a video and i will add pick up coils with bridge rectifers .. and a cap or 2

W

agin good work .. mk1 .. have YOU SPOKE WITH MAC by chance ... ?

lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Foggy-Notion on January 26, 2010, 04:10:04 AM

I read first page, and realized there were 809 pages.
You could publish it as a book, collective works, and

well, anyway, I'm a bit strapped for time, so I'll just
post a question regarding the 1st post and 1st answer

Quote:
"A small battery (AA, A,C,D cells) can push over 1.0 amps. An LED or transistor often can't handle 1.0 amp. (check the rating on the package) So you can either: reduce voltage or increase resistance to lower your amps and protect your component. Increasing resistance by adding a resistor is easier (and usually more efficient) than reducing voltage. Your resistor value will be determined by your voltage and how many amps you can safely draw using the I=V/R equation. Resistors are in fact lossy components, but the losses are minuscule in low-power operations and required to keep your other components from frying."

Question:
Can't I just get a transistor that will handle 1.0 amp?
Thus dump the risistor?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on January 26, 2010, 08:20:11 AM

Quote from: jeanna on January 25, 2010, 06:15:52 PM
Thanks Stew!

I cut a piece of toilet roll at the beginning of this, but I don't think that is big enough for this.
I do have poster paper, and a large can, so I think I will do the 10 divisions 45 degree angle thing Mark posted first.

(I NEED to make a bedini so I can recharge some big batteries, but this is so much more fun!)

jeanna

No problem! It's funny I have been thinking about making some bedini coils to run some tests incorporating JT/Micro TPU looped/bedini. Not sure yet though.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on January 26, 2010, 08:30:50 AM

@Mk1

I feel like there is something i am missing! After looking at your coils again I see that yours do not seem to come away from the inside wall of the tube??? Kinda like a rodin would on this shaped tube! Do you start your winds from the inside or the outside and do you phase them out from each other by 180 degrees?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 26, 2010, 08:49:02 AM

@stprue

I guess i always do the same start from the outside going down the angle , up on the inside.

The secondary doesn't mater . Also you should have at least 12 to 15 feet per coil.

The coil are both the same , and just connected out of phase.

I just completed the micro tp , its a prototype , but it looks good , i hope it works well too.

I will post pictures i a couple of hours need to get the batteries up !

You did rectify the output to see the voltage ?

At 1.5 volt you will not see dc , yet , its there but not strong enough for the meter.

My tube is tall that is why the wire seems far away .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 26, 2010, 09:23:09 AM

to my wonderful surprize lil cridder ran all night and is still running!

im happy and still at great speed too !

wild ..

1 aa driveing it ...

i used to use 12vdc on the input of this thing

W

I WAS THINKING OF REWINDING A NEW PULSE COIL FOR MY 1.5VDC BEDINI .. USEING NO TRANSISTORS ...

AS THE 1 SHOWEN IS IMPORPERLY WOUND

: )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 26, 2010, 09:30:46 AM

@all

For those that need all the details ,for exact replication of symmetry .

The 45 degree angle coincide with 70 degree.

Mark Ok i really need to sleep , later guys.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 26, 2010, 09:39:56 AM

as well i have MANY NEW COILS I WILL SHOW AND SOME MORE OLD ONES ...

as well 45 and 22.5 contained in steel ...

yes i fired it the other day ...

and blew a npn ... 3055 so i put it back away ...

for the right day s

lol

you can also go soup can on this lil cridder ... you dont need the big core it is how i made it as i did!

regards ...

W

lookie replication .... hummmm

i do much perfer originality things many laque! you see when you understand my work .. you understand

why i have conducted things in the mannor i have ..

: ) im early to bed .. early to rize ... THANK GOD IM A COUNTRY BOY! : )

lazzy is makeing video ...

lazzy and the moon comeing out tonight .... : )

BACK TO SCHOOL

LOL

HERE IS MY SCHOOL GIRL ... LOL LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5TWvvJRvoM

JUST LOOK AT MY U TUBE extenction on my video .. says more than enough!

H5TW VV LOL LOVE IN IT

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 26, 2010, 11:26:33 AM

SO I WOUND

a properly wound coil a long time ago ... i used 28 gage a few lbs... tri fillar ...

do you know why ?

it is air core ... i will add a 2n2222a to drive it ... a resistor to tune it to ... THE PROPER 2 FREQ TUNEING ...

THEN I CAN EMPLOY THE SWITCH IT ...

TO IT

lookie ... it may just blow up your boost caps ...

BE CAREFULL!

SO MK1 IN ALL YOUR TUNEING ...

have you achieved my wobble tuneing ... lol yet ..

H

just guessing here ... probally 15 000 turns of wire ...

: )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 26, 2010, 11:37:59 AM

i shall carry on ...

with this unit as showen ... i CAN CAP THE GAP ...

AS I HAVE SAID YEARS AGO ...

i can add a non polorized cap ... NO DIODE ACROSS THE REED ...

THIS IS A DUMMY COIL ...

THIS MEANS I DO NOT POWER IT FROM AN EXTERNAL SOURCE ...

i simply push my motor ...

to start it

try it 1 time ...

SCHOOLS IN ...

regards..

H

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9p-0_DNCsHE

dont get me wrong ... love your work ... but theres something missing in your song!

: )

the fiddle and the band!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 26, 2010, 11:51:37 AM

@ innovation_station

Nice video. I think it would be better if you went over what the parts were and how they were hooked together. I know, most people can figure that out, but I think it would make it more complete. Thanks for posting it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 26, 2010, 11:53:36 AM

Quote from: xee2 on January 26, 2010, 11:51:37 AM
@ innovation_station

Nice video. I think it would be better if you went over what the parts were and how they were hooked together. I know, most people can figure that out, but I think it would make it more complete. Thanks for posting it.

thank you

i will make a new video ...

building the compleate unit ..

and a clear understanding of the entire workings ..

: )

thanks for your kind words!

W

and some more of my words ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSi4HHNOnd0&feature=rec-fresh+div-r-8-HM

we will see you all agin ..

leo the KING AND ACE OF HEARTS ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 26, 2010, 11:56:33 AM

Improved version of previously posted circuit. This lights CFL brighter with less current. Only needs 22 mA to light a 13 watt CFL tube.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 26, 2010, 03:09:39 PM

just an update bcap IS still chargeing 3rd battery this is the second full battery!

and the cap ... slowly climbing ...

i can plainly see ... pauls point here ..

regards paul ..

i have managed to top 1.473 in the boost cap ...

my my gadget ... and you say you charged it full from 5 1000th of a volt ... yikes ...

you must have the best coil on the plannet ... and you did it in 8 hours ...

i will not confirm this!

as my work with this unit is basic jt secondary out put only .. and in your method you used flyback only ...

so ill continue to test it out ... but ..

i do have my doubts...

i can do it correctly with ease and damm fast too .. but im exploring ... all the other useless methods b4 i hit my golden ones!

: )

now the pulse motor .. i built a compleat coil video ed it every explanation and as such i will compile it and post it here and as well to youtube!

btw its still running full steam ... still have 1.2vdc in my aa ... under load ...

: )

so ...

enjoy my truth

if you wear your body rocks .. suddenly it will make just perfect sence ..

then i can begiun to explain why i talk of my ROCKS ...

and perhaps build good old RED GREEN AND BLUE ...

H

im adding pictures ... but my comp is running slowly right now ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 26, 2010, 03:47:50 PM

I want to add the math part, just cuz.

The 45 degree angle is only produced when the distance of each segment around the circumference of the tube is the same as the height of the tube.
It is the reason I believe the pvc connectors will not work. They are too tall for the circumference,and you cannot get that angle.
MK1 did the figuring for the 10 segments.
[Actually, the degree mark on the circle is 72 degrees, not 70, if I understand what that was about.]

6 segments is easier for anyone to figure and therefore might be a better place to start.

Figure the circumference by measuring it directly, or measuring the diameter and multiplying that amount by 3.1416.
You can also make a paper template of the circumference and fold it into 6 equal parts.
This 1/6 around the circumference must be the height.

The same holds true for the 1/10th.
Do it as MK1 has shown, then measure between the segment marks of 1/10th and make that your height.

Any of these will probably work, but the numbers must be even.

I think it would be really interesting to see the interplay between the 6 divisions and 8 divisions all in the same core.

I hope this helps with the recipe for 45 degrees.

===========
@xee2,
This is really great, because you are boosting something twice, and this can be done with this small part.
20T,20T on the goldmine!
very interesting.

I see that you must be getting those numbers from what is printed on the coil.
I have a few of these from various HV boards from cameras and cfl.
I am wondering how to pick the right wires.

When I was doing this to make jonnydavro's HV sec thing, I could not get a good reading from the end wires, so I guessed.
I am not satisfied telling others to guess. Is there a tried and true way to KNOW which is the HV (8) and which are (2), and (10), please?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on January 26, 2010, 03:57:41 PM

@ All
This is the JT circuit to my EMPT did not have chance to post sooner

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 26, 2010, 04:02:14 PM

J

and mk1

this is some of the most important info !

much thanks ..

altho mk1 ... is still on learn !

i will continue to finish video add more pics and doc the boost cap!

results ..

later on ...

good day to ALL!

W

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on January 26, 2010, 04:11:54 PM

Quote from: Rosphere on January 25, 2010, 06:37:10 PM

I just replicated crowclaw's latest offering, (the Helmholtz-coil looking air-core JT.)

I got two white LEDs to burn bright at several inches above the lower coil assembly, (which ran off a 1.0V AA battery.)

I wish I had not lent out my 'good' camera, I would like to show a few photos.

Well done... did you use the same dimensions for your former etc? I have also run this up at around 25 volts using an IGBT (cross between a mosfet and transistor. The distance increases as does the voltage amplitude!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on January 26, 2010, 04:20:35 PM

@Mk1

Thank you for taking the time to explaine, I think I understand now.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 26, 2010, 04:31:10 PM

Quote from: stprue on January 26, 2010, 04:20:35 PM
@Mk1

Thank you for taking the time to explaine, I think I understand now.

i know you understand

ST!

but i have a task for you that will yeild spectular results!

12 05

can you work out ring dimentions and hight..

CLEARLY BASED ON THE ZODIAC...

: )

W

lol

J can you cro shay ... in 6 and 8

we will have a feist!

lol

then work out the standing sclar and magnetic and electric feilds ...

then we can ride my carpet!

regards !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 26, 2010, 04:33:26 PM

@Jeanna

It is 70 , my division are 10 degree , i get max 18 turns from this symmetry.

I was still trying to figure it out . But it works .

I am still waiting on the battery charger , to post my perfect symmetry coil ( still untested ).

Mark

@all

I would stay clear of pvc tube, in am radio literature you can find that those are bad and contain carbon(AND DON'T WORK WELL, BUT LOOK GOOD) , besides have you ever seen a pvc pipe doing anything worth mentioning .

It is like using a bad toroid , its a no no .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 26, 2010, 04:38:59 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 26, 2010, 04:33:26 PM
@Jeanna

It is 70 , my division are 10 degree , i get max 18 turns from this symmetry.
...

Then I must not understand.
Which angle is 70?

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 26, 2010, 04:42:16 PM

st mk1 and J

if you can make it coned 3d rings with in rings ... with the CORRECT FLY OFF BOUNCE RING ANGLE ...

DONE DEAL ...

CAP SECONDARY COILS ON 3 6 AND 9 RINGS ...

GOODDAY

4 REAL

W

and that little pulse motor wont quit running ...

: )

still that same aa ......

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 26, 2010, 04:43:40 PM

@ Jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on January 26, 2010, 03:47:50 PM
I see that you must be getting those numbers from what is printed on the coil.

Yes. The numbers are the pin numbers and they are printed on the coil. I think this is a trigger coil for a high power professional strobe unit. I have not tried to use any of the small camera trigger coils. They may not work. I did try the small ignition coil I have been using and it worked well.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 26, 2010, 04:52:01 PM

Quote from: jeanna on January 26, 2010, 04:38:59 PM
Then I must not understand.
Which angle is 70?

thanks,

jeanna

You will need to build it to see what i mean , i started with 10 degrees division , and tried to make symmetrical winding , but could not get 36 turn out of it , only 18 . I was still learning.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 26, 2010, 04:59:13 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 26, 2010, 04:52:01 PM
You will need to build it to see what i mean , i started with 10 degrees division , and tried to make symmetrical winding , but could not get 36 turn out of it , only 18 . I was still learning.

there many things i respect in you mk1 ..

will to learn

honesty ..

truth

but reality SAYS ... we never stop learning ... and im the first to admit to my many mistakes ... as with out them i never would have scrached the surface ...

and BELEAVE ME I BAIRLY HAVE...

the wing fly bounce angle MUST BE CORRECT to allow magnetic feilds to bounc to the next ring ... as a cascade effect ...

this repeats to the last coil ... but 6 and 8 must spinn 2 in oppsite dirrections and ... depending on supply ... neg and pos ...

tell ya why i can typew this right now ...

im only wearing 3 rocks ...

i did not want to place them b4 there time ...

as i spinn heads ...

this allows comprehenction ... with out that ....

you be oooo pissing in the wind

to where do our thoughts come from ...

H

IM sure i made a wize crack some where long the lines ... bout how the dimond in a wedding ring is upside down ...

and if i have not shared that public ... guess i just did ... i have said that for a long time ...

my dimond ring is next to be placed ... rightside up ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief "lights for less"
Post by: jeanna on January 26, 2010, 04:59:20 PM

OK xee2,
I just went to the goldmine to see what the site says, and it uses ohms to make the connections claims, so, since that is how I was doing this before, no more explanation is needed for me. thanks.

I was worrying about the folks in other countries who might want a toroid to make a good joule thief so I used one of those tiny toroids from an opened cfl, just to see.
It worked really well, and with no special tuning but taking the clues from how it was already wound, I made a 60v jt secondary, and I am now using it for another lamp. My experimentation here, is to test the theory that the hi frequency will turn the lights on but not blow the ones with less internal resistance since resistance is not coming into play.
So, I made 6 strings of 7 leds. Each led in the string is soldered in series, and the strings themselves are soldered in parallel, so 60v is turning on 7 leds, with 6 in parallel, which would normally overly stress the ones with little internal resistance and make them go dim really soon.
I plan to report on this as it is hopefully a good way around lights for less.

Now, next I am thinking that I can add this transformer that is in the same circuit board to do what you are doing here.
So, perhaps, I/we can start with 1.2v and make 60v spiky then with this secondary in use, boost it up even more and light a cfl, or some kind of fl. (the very same cfl would be the most convenient, wouldn't it?- I like convenient.)

Then not only would we be asking for dead batteries from our friends, we would now be asking for dead cfl's. ;D

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 26, 2010, 05:00:29 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 26, 2010, 04:42:16 PM
st mk1 and J

if you can make it coned 3d rings with in rings ... with the CORRECT FLY OFF BOUNCE RING ANGLE ...

DONE DEAL ...

CAP SECONDARY COILS ON 3 6 AND 9 RINGS ...

GOODDAY

4 REAL

W

and that little pulse motor wont quit running ...

: )

still that same aa ......

Go build something !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 26, 2010, 05:11:52 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 26, 2010, 04:52:01 PM
You will need to build it to see what i mean , i started with 10 degrees division , and tried to make symmetrical winding , but could not get 36 turn out of it , only 18 . I was still learning.

OK,
I assume you are telling this by measuring it, because this should be 72.
10 divisions gives you 5 full loops around each one being 72 degrees=pentagon=72 degrees angle from the center, which is the angle I believe you are talking about.

You cannot get more than 18 because you are only counting complete turns. You did have 36, but they were half turns around the tube.

I made a little one last night but I need to finish this little toroid light to clear the space, first... almost ready.

I have a question that came up when I was winding it.
um, I cannot get the question out.
I will work on this in a little while, and thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 26, 2010, 05:40:57 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 26, 2010, 05:00:29 PM
Go build something !

please mk1 sir do not start wirth me agin ...

i have built enough things to fill your house 2 time boy!

lol

W

never mind makeing you get your nose out of joint agin ... ok

lol

look goood annd lllllooooo nnnngggg and hard then go study ...

what you say ... my tuned ear ring ...

REGARDS ...

AND GROW UP PLEASE.....

here is something im going to re teach you my boy mk1 ...

AS MY FATHER re tought me ... : ) you already lived it ... k

me and mr mags ...

crystal clear .Ã©....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 26, 2010, 05:44:16 PM

Quote from: jeanna on January 26, 2010, 05:11:52 PM
OK,
I assume you are telling this by measuring it, because this should be 72.
10 divisions gives you 5 full loops around each one being 72 degrees=pentagon=72 degrees angle from the center, which is the angle I believe you are talking about.

You cannot get more than 18 because you are only counting complete turns. You did have 36, but they were half turns around the tube.

I made a little one last night but I need to finish this little toroid light to clear the space, first... almost ready.

I have a question that came up when I was winding it.
um, I cannot get the question out.
I will work on this in a little while, and thank you,

jeanna

@jeanna

70 is 70 , that is all , i did not know the perfect symmetry then and its not 5 turns on that one but more like 3 .

I know there is no mathematical link.

Mark

Its 70 that's all the tube is divided at each 10 degree and it takes 7 steps to have a 45 degree angle , everything is relative to height .

@all

My new untested coil ...

I just got a tip carpet shop ! for free tubes!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 26, 2010, 05:51:40 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 26, 2010, 05:40:57 PM
please mk1 sir do not start wirth me agin ...

i have built enough things to fill your house 2 time boy!

lol

W

Of incomplete junk , you are still waiting for your answers , and no you have figured everything out Nicolas, he everyone Ist thinks he is tesla reborn...

Mark

You want to help change the world , the only thing you can change is your self , you can't help your self , then you can't help anyone .

I am doing this for your own good , you are on the ignore list of many more people then you may think , what you are doing is not working , even a fool tries to better him self . I am sure tesla would never act like that .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 26, 2010, 05:56:04 PM

take it else where ok

respect as my other father bill tought me !

got it !

W

you dont know what you speek of

i know that ...

how many down loads on my pictures .. if im on every ignore list ... Ã‰

why so many ... did you download my pictures .. hundreds of times each one ...

grow up

or ill pick every detail you can bring up down to the PLANK LEVEL THEN FULLY BURN IT TO YOUR BRAIN!

K

t please i ask you to enlighten him ...

please ...

tell him how it works ... im only half

ok

MARK

H 64

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 26, 2010, 06:12:07 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 26, 2010, 05:56:04 PM
take it else where ok

respect as my other father bill tought me !

got it !

W

you dont know what you speek of

i know that ...

Respect , you have no idea , respect us and start either posting clear information or don't post at all , no one cares about your 10 post of gibberish per pages. All i am saying is make your self clearer , otherwise it is just spaming...

I respected you long enough , waited more then one year for you to make sense , i think that is more time then many gave you , so respect us .

I really could not tell if you had nothing , because based on your post it is really hard to tell , but i guess that is the point.

So i see nothing but half done coil , a new beginning of invention on every page , with pictures, never any results , and most of those you never hear about them again , they are most likely too advance for earth...

You are only tolerated here , not accepted .

Wise up , make sense , i bet you do have things to offer , what i have mostly seen are sculptures...

So you are not here to teach , or to help , so why are you here.

I know what you do , i know what you did to me ...

And for others i am truly sorry , but i got enough of this .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 26, 2010, 06:21:19 PM

I WILL DO SOMETHING TO YOU IN YOUR SLEEP YOU WILL AWAKE A NEW SOUL

REGARDS !

YOU KNOW BETTER!

I THINK ILL CALL YOU MK2

: )

RE PROGRAMED! BE PREPAIRED ..

I HAVE A SOUL IN LINE TO STAND IN ...

GONNA BRING SEXY BACK BRO ... THIS SHOULD BE AN HONER...

: )

then you can look at this through MY EYES....

and experience K BASE ...

nutter ra...... to command does it get easyer each one i do Ã‰ lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 26, 2010, 06:40:16 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 26, 2010, 05:44:16 PM

I know there is no mathematical link.

Its 70 that's all the tube is divided at each 10 degree and it takes 7 steps to have a 45 degree angle , everything is relative to height .

Oh, I think I see what you did, you just made the angle on the side without needing it to be even on the height too.

========

IT IS VERY BEAUTIFUL. wow. I better get making a few more. Mine from last night looks really lousy.

I just posted 3 pics with a small explanation for beginners on the jt101 thread.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8341.msg225098#msg225098 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8341.msg225098#msg225098)

This is the light I just finished made from that tiny toroid from the cfl, so anybody in the world can make this. .. not just the folks who have access to the fancy toroids.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on January 26, 2010, 06:42:56 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 26, 2010, 04:31:10 PM
i know you understand

ST!

but i have a task for you that will yeild spectular results!

12 05

can you work out ring dimentions and hight..

CLEARLY BASED ON THE ZODIAC...

: )

W

lol

J can you cro shay ... in 6 and 8

we will have a feist!

lol

then work out the standing sclar and magnetic and electric feilds ...

then we can ride my carpet!

regards !

lol :D

I think you have figured out an alternate reality IST!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 26, 2010, 06:51:32 PM

bro

lol

indeed i think so ...

lol

W

just funny thanks for the great laugh! : )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 26, 2010, 06:59:14 PM

@IST,

QuoteJ can you crochet ... in 6 and 8

then work out the standing scalar and magnetic and electric fields ...

You are thinking along the same lines, I think. (I'm not sure about the feast, though.)

The fractal divisions of the 6 pointed star when repeated as Nasseim Haramein is doing form a cube. This cube has been drawn in the crops, so it is not just a daydream.
I do think that when we can get these numbers and shapes to work together, we will have something useful to humanity.

My "back burner" is getting really full, but I need to do something with this cardboard tube before I take anything down from it... so bedini will wait. I did make a 9volt recharger no bearing type, after all. ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 26, 2010, 07:09:17 PM

i have found many benifits to the bearing method as you have found to the high speed .. .no bearing

course we know the loop

dont we

w

when you refine it right down to 1 ring .. it could be 6 coils ... and it still all works out ..

but that is makeing it harder to visualize ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 26, 2010, 08:19:11 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 26, 2010, 07:09:17 PM
course we know the loop
don't we

um, I don't know. What is the loop?

Quote1 ring

what is the ring you are talking about?

Quote.. it could be 6 coils ... and it still all works out ..

I am not sure what it "works out" means.
There is much to do
1- first to make them-- jtc lamps are the best so far., but still not taking the place of the light switch.
2- then to understand them then, -- when we understand we can improve them.
3- then to explain them so others can make them. As you have recently been reminded. This is the hardest part of all.

And that is only with lighting.

Even when we make heat or torque, it is week
We are at the very beginning IMHO.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 27, 2010, 12:24:14 AM

J

were in worse shape than i currently thought ...

i yi yi

ooooo boy

ist

i just got back in ...

i will now finish my video ... and try to find something to draw on ...

i NEED MY GREEN ROCK!

CLEARLY ... I CAN NOT HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS WITH OUT IT ..

i got your rocks j the pink ones .... and i bet you got the green ones lol j if you give my words just a little thought .. i think you will see how it clearly explains our backward ness ... thats no joke eather!

errrrr

lol

ok my pulse motor has stopped it ran im guessing bout 26 hours from 1 aa ... not bad .. for a single coil unit ...

not properly wound ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 27, 2010, 12:39:44 AM

mk2

hope your ready ..

and do not fear you will be quite fine ...

and you brain will dubble in size over night ...

EVER BEEN ON A SPEED MACHINEÃ© speed learning ... AKA k base...

the soul being that will compleat your human mind is a dear friend of mine and a many life time soul sister!

she was killed in a car accident ... not to long ago ...

it had to be that way ... or it would not be the way it is today ... we wont go there for now .. k

i loved her .. dearly for reasons at the time her or i never understood .. but we both felt it ..

the crazy est nut you ever saw!

none the less think its a joke ... you will not ... cuz after that you will go for a ride ...

you will not remember in your 3d life .. but when you awake ... DRAW DOWN ... WHAT YOU SEE...

OK

put on your seat belt the streem is fast!

: )

than we can look far beond our silly public actions ...

just be ready ... k

if you do not understand what im doing to you .. you sure will when im finished ...

k

your a super soul being ... as are a few others i work with ... and you are getting dirrect ballanced ..

peace ...

she is the new moon !

im turning you on ... just remember i can turn you off too!

this is how much i respect you S!R MK2

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 27, 2010, 01:18:34 AM

Quote from: jeanna on January 26, 2010, 06:59:14 PM
@IST,
You are thinking along the same lines, I think. (I'm not sure about the feast, though.)

The fractal divisions of the 6 pointed star when repeated as Nasseim Haramein is doing form a cube. This cube has been drawn in the crops, so it is not just a daydream.
I do think that when we can get these numbers and shapes to work together, we will have something useful to humanity.

My "back burner" is getting really full, but I need to do something with this cardboard tube before I take anything down from it... so bedini will wait. I did make a 9volt recharger no bearing type, after all. ;)

j

the 6 pointed star is MERKABAH!

ok

2 prymids a ballanced gyro particle .. spinning 2 dirrections at the same time .. they smack and produce 3 feilds ..

the father sun and ghost!

k

or if you prefer electrics magnetics and sclar

2 effects you can see 3rd you can not see ..hence the ghost..

any how ..

hope this helps ..

this is how i can explain teleportation ... because we simply de spin the material in a nano second ..

and recombine it on 9 via the medium ...

your reality...

magic .. it is not

: )

w

j do you have a rock collection ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 27, 2010, 03:42:20 AM

@all

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 27, 2010, 04:22:22 AM

@all

First test on the prototype 5 , it works , i did not do all my usual testing yet .

But you can see if light 24 led in parallel on four and a half turn secondary.

I got the same light from 0 to 300 ohm (value of the pot) so i am not even close to the sweet spot...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Rosphere on January 27, 2010, 06:51:41 AM

Quote from: crowclaw on January 26, 2010, 04:11:54 PM
Well done... did you use the same dimensions for your former etc? I have also run this up at around 25 volts using an IGBT (cross between a mosfet and transistor. The distance increases as does the voltage amplitude!

I used a jacketed 3-wire construct of about 3/16" diameter that I had on hand. Two of the three wires are stranded and insulated, (one white one black,) while the third is stranded, tinned, and uninsulated.

Because I did not want to tear into the jacketed wire construction, the number of base windings is equal to the number of collector windings. The number of windings is 15. The coil profile shape is an equilateral triangle. A photo would be helpful here, (sister-in-law is still 'borrowing' my camera.)

The inside diameter is 11 inches. The outside diameter 12.5 is inches. The height is 0.9 inches. (I wound it on a 'Knifty Knitter' that Dansway advised me to purchase years ago--finally got some use out of it.)

I made three identical coils, held together with electrical tape. With three wires each, I have nine total coils to play with.

measured inductance
top white   0.128   mH
top black   0.128   mH
top tin   0.126   mH
mid white   0.127   mH
mid black   0.127   mH
mid tin   0.126   mH
low white   0.126   mH
low black   0.126   mH
low tin   0.124   mH

measured resistance
top white   0.45   Ohms
top black   0.5   Ohms
top tin   0.4   Ohms
mid white   0.45   Ohms
mid black   0.45   Ohms
mid tin   0.4   Ohms
low white   0.45   Ohms
low black   0.4   Ohms
low tin   0.4   Ohms

measured capactance
top white-black   0.002   Î¼F
top white-tin   0.004   Î¼F
top black-tin   0.004   Î¼F
mid white-black   0.002   Î¼F
mid white-tin   0.004   Î¼F
mid black-tin   0.004   Î¼F
low white-black   0.002   Î¼F
low white-tin   0.004   Î¼F
low black-tin   0.004   Î¼F

I was able to reproduce your results using only two of the three coils. Two wires from the mid-coil were connected in JT fashion using a TIP41A NPN, a 50K POT, and a AA battery. One wire from the top coil was connected to two white LEDs. The further I separated the two coils from one another, the dimmer the LEDs became.

Since I was using clip leads to connect everything, after I reproduced your results I was able to play around with the extra coil and the extra wires; like using the extra wire in parallel with the collector-the LEDs glow a little brighter, etc.

Again, thanks for posting. That was cheap fun for the weekend, (I only had to purchase the white LEDs and I intended to get some sooner or later anyway.)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 27, 2010, 06:52:45 AM

mk

75 ohm 3vdc 4 " ring 7hz wobble it ...

: )

W

if you cant get wobble it is the transistor ...

if you hit it right on BOOM go the switches ... less they can handle it ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Rosphere on January 27, 2010, 06:55:28 AM

MK1, nice bright results on your JT-agentgates combo. Maybe I will have a go next weekend.

(How is your "new soul" working out for you today?) lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 27, 2010, 07:00:30 AM

ill tell ya i went to go to sleep it was a short rest !

lol

with my rocks on board .. i sleep much less

: )

W

just wate and see what he does tommorow ... lol ; )

i have started on CAPPING my motor ...

just need a higher turn count coil and a kicker coil ...

then it is battery less...

: )

i will achieve this soon all i need is to ballance the tiny magic engery ... via shift .. and i will always have me a cap to dump ...

i would like to think i can do this with 1 coil and a nice inductor ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 27, 2010, 07:24:48 AM

i was given 2 vcrs last night i find 2 more vcr heads high speed low friction bearings ... 1 super cap

and 2 more generator bearings .. lol

magnet already in place ... now the caps and the switches and coils ..

agin NO BATTERY ...

why wont it work ... lol I SEE NO REASON ..

SIMPLY TURN THE MOTOR .. charge caps .. release!

regards ..

william

I HAVE A CHALLANGE I WILL POST should silly humans think my crystal work is a joke ...

a few years back ... i figured out the muller ...

lmfao

how and why could BILL build it ... ; )

lol

what the heck is it any ways .....

hehehehehe that was a Re funny!

why did my golden sword take them out ... when they tryed to make my light sabers ...

GUESS THEY WERE NOT WEARING MY SHEILD !

were they ...

lol

melts in your hand not in your mind!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 27, 2010, 07:35:54 AM

Quote from: Rosphere on January 27, 2010, 06:55:28 AM

(How is your "new soul" working out for you today?) lol

Thanks , i still do not know i did not go to bed yet... :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 27, 2010, 07:48:38 AM

as soon as you do you are going for a ride ..

get your pencel ready for when you awake ....

i set it all up

sun!

H

im wateing on Q ... Q is quick .. and she is wateing on you !

regards

u see mk i knew you were ready bout 3 days ago ..

loggie told me .. SAYS UNCLE BUILD MY PENCLES ARE SHARP!

: )

come on spider man ! if you cant do it no body can!

bat man is up next ...

aint seen him round lately ... he will come back ...

lol

you see wonder woman she be hanging out a long time !

: ) hehe haha

im tune to all ! q is tune to my father/ blood sun!

he likes a mohawk ... : ) his name is SKY! AND ALI'S BDAY ... SATERDAY! : )

WELCOME TO THE AGE OF AQUARIOUS ... AS IS MY BLOOD SISTER! : )

GET YOUR AMYITHIST ROCK ON YOUR CROWN!

and now ....

sw!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSR7H580e5U

: )

love ya brother!

one one one !

!st 1st

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 27, 2010, 10:28:34 AM

i have many ways to achieve self run mode on my simple pulse motor

and this is up next!

i must share it ...

it is incodded in my DNA

: )

so hang tight !

were on it !

W

ra you are my sun i currently am H soon you will be my father.... : )

WHY DO I ADMIRE THE FRENCH... ?

and why was isis given to the us ... HER STACTUE STILL STANDS TALL ...

and i still cant spell ... lol

@ Rosphere

im glad you came to join us here sir!

it is an honer to work with you agin old friend ...

it would be nice if Dan stops by too even just to say hi ...

miss the wild nut !

lol

and his crazy coils!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 27, 2010, 11:26:11 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 27, 2010, 10:28:34 AM
i have many ways to achieve self run mode on my simple pulse motor

and this is up next!

i must share it ...

it is incodded in my DNA

: )

so hang tight !

were on it !

W

ra you are my sun i currently am H soon you will be my father.... : )

WHY DO I ADMIRE THE FRENCH... ?

and why was isis given to the us ... HER STACTUE STILL STANDS TALL ...

and i still cant spell ... lol

isis? it's not a statue of isis... it's a statue of queen semerimus. and what the hell does any of that have to do with joule thief circuits?

you're trippin ist.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 27, 2010, 11:29:07 AM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on January 27, 2010, 11:26:11 AM
isis? it's not a statue of isis... it's a statue of queen semerimus. and what the hell does any of that have to do with joule thief circuits?

you're trippin ist.

your sleeping ....

and running into my WALLS missing the door bro ..

1 family...

just 1

thats it that s all

your seat will always remain ... even if you do not awake this time round ..

im w and soon i will turn the mic to mike

then you are in for a tuneing ...

ABLE TO LOVE ... PROJECT AVALON!

GO READ IT S!R

he is MAATY

and as i said ... it is compleatly impossible for me to have the 1 correct answer with OUT all my rocks ...

and my soul being requires 36

MANY SOULS ONLY EVER ACHIEVE 7 ROCKS

THANK YOU

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 27, 2010, 11:33:25 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 27, 2010, 11:29:07 AM
your sleeping ....

and running into my WALLS missing the door bro ..

1 family...

just 1

thats it that s all

your seat will always remain ... even if you do not awake this time round ..

im w and soon i will turn the mic to mike

then you are in for a tuneing ...

ABLE TO LOVE ... PROJECT AVALON!

GO READ IT S!R

nobody cares... mint?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 27, 2010, 11:38:31 AM

well sir

MEET MY JUDGEING COUNCEL

REGARDS!

WAF

what is the result when the earth stands still for 3 days ... then spins the other dirrection ... for 1 more cycle of the calender.....

things that make you

HUH!

TELL me will is that when you better be rocked up ?

kindly think about all i have said ...

i have building to do so as i was more than asked nicely to do so ... lol

in other words ...

how long has the world been requesting a drawing ... ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 27, 2010, 02:31:06 PM

IST:

Please, for the last time, keep your posts relevant to this topic. If you want to talk about all these other non-related topics, start your own topic area for that.

There will be no more warnings from me.

Thank you,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on January 27, 2010, 02:40:33 PM

ahhhh...Much better thanks Pirate!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on January 27, 2010, 02:42:33 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 27, 2010, 04:22:22 AM
@all

First test on the prototype 5 , it works , i did not do all my usual testing yet .

But you can see if light 24 led in parallel on four and a half turn secondary.

I got the same light from 0 to 300 ohm (value of the pot) so i am not even close to the sweet spot...

Nice job Mk1...will it light a bulb ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 27, 2010, 04:59:29 PM

i dont get it ...

i cant share my jt driven hpg from a aa floating ac on n pole dc mo0tor

that im about to make self run ...

IS this a reserch site or not ?

w

STOP SERCHING ALREADY FOR MA RE !

I JUST TOLD YOU I BROUGHT HER HOME ... K

never mind me then wobbling it then switching it

then powering ummmmmm da hole plannet ...

damm it!

da cortex machine had a malfunction and its GONE country ...

told ya ... im too much for ya .... when i put ma rocks on ....

i wanned ya ....

now that last was funny ... 1

if ya cant keep it real how the hell can ya keep it !!!

its ok as my family know me well .... just ask em

famous by birth date ...

RE GARDS ..

81577

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 27, 2010, 06:16:35 PM

Quote from: stprue on January 27, 2010, 02:42:33 PM
Nice job Mk1...will it light a bulb ?

I have broken my bulb , i need to go buy some , filament light testing you resume on Monday.

But so far it is not that strong , i will try tuning it today , change the resistor value , once i will have sufficient data , i will use the same wire but make the coil on the inside , it should be better , i will try longer pickup coil.
Also different winding types.

But honestly i am glad it works , the pickup coil is so short.

More data to come .

Mark

Ps IST stop posting gibberish 10 times a page ...

Mk2

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 27, 2010, 06:22:07 PM

OK THATS IT...

IM A PLAY THE HATTIE CARD

WHO IS THE FIRST COUNTRY TO BACK ME

FOR RELIEF ...

TO A WOUNDED NATION!

??

I HAVE THE ANSWER YOU CAN NOT PROVE WRONG ...

HOW BOUT THE FLASH LIGHTS THAT NEVER MADE IT TO AFRICA... EVEN AFTER I GAVE IT FREE OF CHARGE ...

DONT GET IT ...

H

if you think this is a joke my work ... thats your choise ... lol

it sits in front of my eyes ..... so how much torque at 25 rpm from 15 lbs .... ?

as a simple figure ... then i have the homopolar output ... all the air coils i want to winde and then the fly back ...

and I CAN GO ON FOR EVER ... i can even stack the darn thing ...

same old same old ....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 27, 2010, 06:24:59 PM

Ist Africa is one big country ;D

You must mean south Africa.

So you are getting money.

I do remember your site , you at the time where the only thing thing you sold , was of my design ... :-*

He people Ist sold my stuff , never gave me credit or money.

His stuff is so good he never was confident enough to see it.

Thank , the new mk2 , has the killer instinct , and the truth on his side.

Edit all jokes aside , we are enabling him , he can't act like that in society , the only place he can act like this is here , if we really care for ist , we should stop enabling him , there is only one way ... canada has a good healt care system , he will get help.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 27, 2010, 07:00:19 PM

you see mk1 i just built dial a cortex machine ...

and she landed in my lap as you were not ready ...

im truely sory agin !

H

twitter ?

this site is getting old and boring ...

ever seen a 1 man band ?

it just tuned its self ...

it is now wobbbling on top the chatter ..... and the odd dirrection air coil hpg running on a aa ....

and mk1 ...

i dont need a lick of your work ...

lol

none ...

see .. i will now employ ontop of alll the other stuff my hole low volt car battery LOADING SYSTEM .. ON THE BACK SIDE THAT DRIVES THE DAMM THING ..

GOT IT ....

CHECK MATE!

ALL MY WORK ..

ALL DATED AND SHARED FREE OF CHARGE ON THE LARGEST RESERCH SITE IN THE WORLD ...

CHALLANGING TO BE PROVEN WRONG ..

: )

IM A TALK TO RYAN SEACREST... SEE WHAT HE MAY KNOW ....

REGARDS!

MOVIE RIGHTS ??? HUMMMMM

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Tink on January 27, 2010, 07:45:06 PM

Pirate,

The ignore function doesn't work.
Maybe it's my Linux Firefox, I tried hard but I still see IST's posts.
Does the ignore fuction work for other people?
If yes, please tell me how you did it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 27, 2010, 08:10:53 PM

Quote from: Tink on January 27, 2010, 07:45:06 PM
Pirate,

The ignore function doesn't work.
Maybe it's my Linux Firefox, I tried hard but I still see IST's posts.
Does the ignore fuction work for other people?
If yes, please tell me how you did it.

it works, but you have to make sure add-ons like noscript aren't stopping it...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 27, 2010, 08:30:05 PM

ya no script is a problem add on ... lol

i know a few good writers ...

and here is my last public video regarding ... this

and my final post to FOURM!

PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO LEARN FROM THE PATH I HAVE PAVED!

MK1 THIS TIME ITS SUN NUMBER 5# NOT 6

BOY!

AND THE FOLLING VIDEOS ... ARE PRIVATE ... AND NOT EVEN FOR SUBS...

I WILL ALLOW VIEWS BY EMAIL ONLY

nuttin on the top but a bucket and a mop....
and an illistrated book about birds

see a lot up there ... BUT DONT BE SACRED
WHO NEEDS ACTION WHEN YOU GOT WORDS ..

NARVANA PLATEAU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3evaMFX5gw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGW32auOh5M

JUST YOU WATE TIL I SECTION MY DISC ... gs style

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on January 27, 2010, 08:47:37 PM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on January 27, 2010, 08:10:53 PM
it works, but you have to make sure add-ons like noscript aren't stopping it...

The ignore function works, it just shows name of poster, and a short sentence explaining that the user is being blocked.

- - - - - -

The special coils are coming along quite well - nice to see some fresh posts about them. Maybe I'll build one sometime.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Tink on January 27, 2010, 08:54:32 PM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on January 27, 2010, 08:10:53 PM
it works, but you have to make sure add-ons like noscript aren't stopping it...

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH GREAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You were right, it was Noscript that blocked the ignore script.
This is great, thanks a lot!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 27, 2010, 09:00:47 PM

Quote from: Tink on January 27, 2010, 08:54:32 PM
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH GREAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You were right, it was Noscript that blocked the ignore script.
This is great, thanks a lot!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 27, 2010, 09:36:31 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 27, 2010, 08:30:05 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGW32auOh5M

well done IST! bravo!

that was clear, concise and easy to understand. i think using videos like that to get across your ideas might work out better for you.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 27, 2010, 10:18:50 PM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on January 27, 2010, 09:36:31 PM
well done IST! bravo!

that was clear, concise and easy to understand. i think using videos like that to get across your ideas might work out better for you.

thank you sir ..

i will try your most welcomed advice in the future !

i will add this warning to ...

do not turn it ... when it is spinning ...

i assume no responcibilaty if it blasts off ... to space .. quite litterly ..

when i compleeat it ... it is a gyro ....

it will send you far more than across the room !

warning ...

torque .. on 30 lbs @ 30 000 rpm .... is 6000 hp ... wich is incorrect as the forumlia that explains hp ...

is incorrect ..

peace .

i will leave the rest of you to learn ...

: )

william

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 27, 2010, 10:25:28 PM

814 Dose that mean that starting on page 814 , will begin really helping ?

Maybe you should stick to video , since writing is not your thing.

And someday you may even thank me for being such a hard ass .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 27, 2010, 10:39:01 PM

Ist,

Is there only one piece of about 8 inch length if that black hook up wire?
And that is making the connections you described?

So there is only
one reed switch, and only
one coil wound in
one direction??
Then there are magnets on the pulse motor like the bedini, but UNlike the bedini, this has no core material, no transistor, and only ONE coil?? ?? ??

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 27, 2010, 10:52:38 PM

@jeanna

This video can help you , ist modified it by changing the relay for one reed switch , and put the bearing back in the rotor.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Lidmotor#p/u/19/WXMzJhcT6I8

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 27, 2010, 10:54:48 PM

is inspired me. When we load down a motor torque is developed in two directions. The stator wants to go one way and the rotor the other. In a motor we load down the rotor but neglect loading down the stator. The stator energy is wasted deforming metals which are loading them down to the Earth. If a motor is running at 90 percent efficiency with the rest of the conversion going off as heat sound and vibration when we load the stator it should be able to run at 180 percent effieciency of conversion. It is easy to accomplish put a belt on the motor to a normal load. Put a second belt to a load on the stator. Let the stator go round and round but stall it with a load instead of bolting it down and waisting the mechanical reactive energy. Simple matter of bearing placement.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 28, 2010, 12:35:56 AM

Mark,
1- What is the base resistance?
I was amazed at rosphere's base resistance. Maybe that is part of the trick??

2- What is that dark green round thing? - Is that the pot?

One more q for now,
3- Does your coil get warm at all?
I made mine wrong but put it into the breadboard anyway and the bjtl did not light, and nothing seemed to be working, (I used a croc wire wrapped around 4 times as the secondary and nothing there...no surprise), however, when I pulled it out, the coil was warm... so, something was working.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 28, 2010, 12:36:48 AM

@ ist

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGW32auOh5M

Good video.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 28, 2010, 12:46:36 AM

IST:

Very good job explaining on your video. That was a nice job.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 28, 2010, 12:47:28 AM

just build it ...

thanks everyone for your kind words ..

good bye

had enough of this place ...

panio man is done !

W

hey 1 more funny b4 i go ...

NO DELETING IT THIS MA PAGE!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3evaMFX5gw

PUT ON YOUR GUYTAR WHATS HE DOING TUNEING A HARP .... LOL

LOVE YA ALL!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 28, 2010, 12:49:08 AM

@ jeanna

Quote from: jeanna on January 27, 2010, 10:39:01 PM
are magnets on the pulse motor

I think he should have added a bit of explanation in the video. But, I think there is at least one magnet on the rim of the rotating disk and that by positioning the reed switch at the proper location when the magnet closes the reed switch it sends current through the coil and either pushes or pulls the magnet (depending on which way current is flowing) thus giving the rotor a small push (or pull).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 28, 2010, 12:53:28 AM

Quote from: jeanna on January 28, 2010, 12:35:56 AM
Mark,
1- What is the base resistance?
I was amazed at rosphere's base resistance. Maybe that is part of the trick??

2- What is that dark green round thing? - Is that the pot?

One more q for now,
3- Does your coil get warm at all?
I made mine wrong but put it into the breadboard anyway and the bjtl did not light, and nothing seemed to be working, (I used a croc wire wrapped around 4 times as the secondary and nothing there...no surprise), however, when I pulled it out, the coil was warm... so, something was working.

thank you,

jeanna

The green thing is indeed some 300 ohm pot. It did nothing to the led intensity, i assume that i am now even close to the proper resistance value.

I did not notice heat but usually it means there is a short somewhere .

Usually i don't put the secondary on unless the basic joule thief led works.

I can't wait to put the coil inside , to see if the jt circuit is blind to it .

Because the field inside , is way more powerful inside.

I will spend all night on it , i may have a few video .

If i could find a filament bulb ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 28, 2010, 01:19:49 AM

Quote from: xee2 on January 28, 2010, 12:49:08 AM
.... magnet on the rim of the rotating disk....

Oh I see.
Yes, I think there are a few.
So, by starting it up, the permanent magnet excites the electro magnet, then it gets interrupted and stopped and then starts up again which creates a back-spike thing which further excites the electromagnet then pushes the motor along for another cycle.

I have missed this, or I am finally ready to understand it.
Thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 28, 2010, 01:22:43 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 28, 2010, 12:53:28 AM
The green thing is indeed some 300 ohm pot. It did nothing to the led intensity, i assume that i am now even close to the proper resistance value.

thanks.

Quote
I did not notice heat but usually it means there is a short somewhere .

I checked everywhere, and the battery was cool everything was fine and yet the coil was warm.
This means to me that there is oscillation happening in the coil.
I wound it wrong too.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 28, 2010, 01:24:09 AM

Jeanna:

Yes, that is the pulse motor. Using a bifilar coil like Bedini does one set of windings acts as an electromagnet, and the other acts as a coil to get the pulse of the magnet going by. Very cool when you think about it.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 28, 2010, 01:42:30 AM

Yes Bill,

What I was just realizing was the fact that only one coil - not bifilar- was enough to turn the reed switch on and off like the transistor.
I was really under the impression that 2 coils were necessary for the on and off thing.

I totally missed that element in the bedini, but of course he uses the transistor.

I guess I will go after this tomorrow.
I have 1 reed relay from rs, and 2 micro micro reed switches from goldmine. They probably need to be bigger, but they will probably be fast. ;) Hopefully they won't get welded right away!
I will let you know.

[this has major stubblefield implications of course. Others have mentioned it but I did not even try to understand back then.]

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 28, 2010, 02:07:12 AM

@ jeanna

It is not that complicated. The magnet closes the reed switch (briefly as it passes) and pulses the coil which acts as electromagnet to pull or push magnet (if it is positioned correctly).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hartiberlin on January 28, 2010, 02:55:54 AM

Hi innovation_station,

I got many complaints about you
posting offtopic stuff in some topics.

This is the last warning.
If you donÂ´t stay ontopic and
only post usefull stuff I will set you
on Read Only.

Many thanks for your understanding.

Regards, Stefan.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 28, 2010, 07:10:28 AM

bendeni replaced the reed switch with a hall effect sensor to trigger. Again this is just an example of resonance. A rotation is an oscillation. You push a kid on a swing at the right time the kid theoretically can go over the top. If the rotation is eliptical then the pause is still there when you have a chance to put your little push in there. If you teach you child to kick at the right time you get to rest and the system self oscillates. A big smile comes over the childs face as she takes control of the system. Most kids love to exit the system and fly. They are able to produce effects they could never produce without manipulating time. The conversation changes from Dad push me to Dad watch this. A smile descends upon the parent. It is a smile that comes with a bit of sadness also. Your child is growing up.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 28, 2010, 09:40:20 AM

ok boys and girls ...

i will fully disclose and compleatly eaplain ...

NO IT IS NOT LIDMOTORS WORK MK- 1

nor bedinis eather ..

look at my SQUARE MAGNETS .. N POLE FACEING OUT

PLACEMENT OF REED PLACEMENT OF MAGNETS placement of coil

allows chatter dubble banging and it pumps the mag flux to wich i have BENT...

I HAD IT RUNNING 3 FREQ...

FROM 1 REED SW ..

anyhow ..

mk - 1 like i said you have no clue what you speek of ... go fix your broken GUY TAR ... AND STRAP IT ON! stop tuneing my harp ... thats your warning ...

i sent you something mk- 1 lol your gonna need some ice .. they gonna watch it on the big screen !

W

im makeing video # 2 and 3 4 and 5 ..... 555 miles an hour ...

on MY international harvestor!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 28, 2010, 12:21:52 PM

i am tuneing it ...

really nice too!

i added 2 pots to it

so as i can tune it right in ....

lol

W

we nailed it to the scope tooo! yikes! you ever seen pure shine W ave {A} audio {V} video {E} experiance.. ... from 1 reed switch ?

sure ya have ...

: )

now i took the battery away ... trow 2 caps in now its self running ....

hummmmm

no batteries ...

SEE

now im going to add some bridges ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 28, 2010, 12:58:28 PM

Ist,
thank you for your clarity on the video.
Please address my question on the next video since your rebuttal to MK1 did not make the answer clear to me at all.
I mean what did you ever mean by "bent" ?
Somehow, you type these meaningless words, yet you do a great job explaining with your voice on the video. Please continue with the videos.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 28, 2010, 01:26:27 PM

now after all the other simple circus stuff ..

add a earth ground ...

W

: )

ill be finishing the build and videoing it .. well the brother in law SIR K says salid spinner v6

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on January 28, 2010, 05:32:00 PM

PLYZ Mk1 VIEV...

INFO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlhLXnd04Wo
http://www.richieburnett.co.uk/lclr.gif

http://www.youtube.com/user/savelkaunas
http://www.vabolis.lt/2009/07/08/indukcinis-sildymas-veikia/
http://www.vabolis.lt/
ANTANAS
LITHUANIA

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 28, 2010, 05:44:20 PM

Quote from: FreeEnergyInfo on January 28, 2010, 05:32:00 PM
PLYZ Mk1 VIEV...

INFO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlhLXnd04Wo
http://www.richieburnett.co.uk/lclr.gif
http://www.youtube.com/user/savelkaunas
http://www.vabolis.lt/2009/07/08/indukcinis-sildymas-veikia/
http://www.vabolis.lt/
ANTANAS
LITHUANIA

Thank you Athanas.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 28, 2010, 05:55:09 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 28, 2010, 09:40:20 AM
ok boys and girls ...

i will fully disclose and compleatly eaplain ...

NO IT IS NOT LIDMOTORS WORK MK- 1

nor bedinis eather ..

look at my SQUARE MAGNETS .. N POLE FACEING OUT

PLACEMENT OF REED PLACEMENT OF MAGNETS placement of coil

allows chatter dubble banging and it pumps the mag flux to wich i have BENT...

I HAD IT RUNNING 3 FREQ...

FROM 1 REED SW ..

anyhow ..

mk - 1 like i said you have no clue what you speek of ... go fix your broken GUY TAR ... AND STRAP IT ON! stop tuneing my harp ... thats your warning ...

i sent you something mk- 1 lol your gonna need some ice .. they gonna watch it on the big screen !

W

im makeing video # 2 and 3 4 and 5 ..... 555 miles an hour ...

on MY international harvestor!

Why would i need an explanation , this is the joule thief tread , and i do understand the joule thief quite well .

The first time you told us you would show it to us , you said it had a relay , you could not replicate so you changed it.

You may not have learned it for lid but you are not the first to do this , i even saw some running without battery , so please. I have seen many replication , before yours .

The problem i have with you is not your work , it is all the shit it comes with it .

Even Stephan had to come warn you , so grow up.

Even if you had the greatest gift for humanity , if no one gets it , it is worthless .

Get a clue ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on January 28, 2010, 05:57:53 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 28, 2010, 05:44:20 PM
Thank you Antanas.

Mark

ok ok ...
FREE ENERGY -- FREE INFO !!!!!
peace
ANTANAS

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 28, 2010, 07:03:45 PM

Quote from: FreeEnergyInfo on January 28, 2010, 05:32:00 PM

ANTANAS
LITHUANIA

Really?

This is
12volt?
1.2 volt?
what kind of transistors are you using?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on January 28, 2010, 07:15:11 PM

Quote from: jeanna on January 28, 2010, 07:03:45 PM
Really?

This is
12volt?
1.2 volt?
what kind of transistors are you using?

thank you,

jeanna

12-30v 20A
plyz viev video info yotube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEtOYiGqf6A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlhLXnd04Wo
http://www.vabolis.lt/2009/07/19/indukcinis-sildymas-nauja-rite/
http://www.vabolis.lt/2009/07/14/indukcinis-sildymas-daugiau-galios/
transliate page lithuanian -- englis
http://translate.google.com/
this video ist tesla tehnology hight ferguence
http://www.free-energy-devices.com/TeslaBook.pdf
http://www.vabolis.lt/2009/07/08/indukcinis-sildymas-veikia/
ANTANAS
LITHUANIA

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 28, 2010, 08:09:56 PM

Quote from: FreeEnergyInfo on January 28, 2010, 07:15:11 PM
12-30v 20A
plyz viev video info yotube
/indukcinis-sildymas-veikia/
ANTANAS
LITHUANIA

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on January 28, 2010, 08:18:00 PM

Quote from: jeanna on January 28, 2010, 08:09:56 PM
thank you,

jeanna

ok ok ....
ANTANAS

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 28, 2010, 08:28:05 PM

your a LOOSER MK1 ...

you lost ...

i got it running on its self ...

: P

do u ?

AND IT ALL IS A JOULE THEIF...

THANK YOU !

whos the biggest looser ... ill bust the biggest boozer!

got ring of fire yet fella ...

thats why ya need da ice!

you see i wound some nice coils ... lol i can charge caps in a snap!

yes perfect sine wave output! : )

at one point i has 13vdc shooting out it ...

no batteries .. just 1 cap a bridge a reed and 1 coil

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 28, 2010, 09:01:27 PM

You just don't know when to quit ...

:-* even if you do have a self runner , no battery , i still have seen that before .

The problem with you , is that to get anything significant , you need to post hundreds before getting trough to anyone.

Now the insults , you stopped going to at what 12 ? When you no longer have munition you always resort to insults , this is not the first directed at me .

In retaliation i had the truth for a weapon , i just stated what our relation has been .

Now why would i do that to you , because what you usually do is useless , not just my opinion but everyone else too , but i feel i know you better , so i acted , you need a shake out ( then you actually did something worth mentioning . ???) you should thank me .

Now you are on your final warning , blasting insults , this is not a game of chess , this is your life , insult all you want , i am not the one acting like a moron.

And i think you are under all that non sense a great guy , the message is put up clearer info, that is all. ::)

Now good luck ...

You want to change the world , you will need to change your self first.

BTW W = 66 the devil number , i liked the william we had before better .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 28, 2010, 09:10:44 PM

you clearly have no clue

lol

i did this like few years ago ..

how many hundred thousand coils are out there right now ... ?

just cuz you cant do it ..

i did this long b4 you came round ..

where did everybody go anyhow ?

W

i do reccomend you do some reading ...

im just keeping the moon occupied .. and haveing a fun time do in it ! : )

you know mk1 when i released my water turbine .. i gave plans to EVERY UNI THAT EMAILD ME !

A FEW HUNDRED UNIVIRSESITIES ROUND THE PLANET

maybe you saw A SELF RUNNER.. but did you UNDERSTAND IT .. ANSWER NO YOU DID NOT .. or you would not be AT school!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 28, 2010, 09:22:16 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 28, 2010, 09:10:44 PM

where did everybody go anyhow ?

W

IST:

That is the point. With these posts of yours you are running folks off of this topic. As I told you, I have received complaints and now Stefan has told you the same thing.

I really don't know why you are doing this William. You are a better person than this. Your posts have always been pretty cryptic but not malicious. Now you make even more cryptic posts and also malicious ones and you make like 5 in a row, on many pages now.

It is clear from your videos that you can communicate in a clear manner. Your videos are good William, many folks here, including me, have said that. But I am telling you, Stefan does not mess around and you are clearly headed for read-only.

Is this what you want?

You almost seem to be asking for that to happen.

With very few exceptions, we set a great example on this topic to have like 12,000 posts with very little trouble, and you were also a part of that. And now, you seem to be doing your best to undermine all of the good we all have done together.

Please, change this behavior or else you will leave Stefan no choice.

If there is any better way to say this to you, I can't think of it.

Thanks,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 28, 2010, 09:35:20 PM

ever see a 3vdc plasma jt ?

with 1 coil and 1 reed switch ..

im building it next!

H

carefull you just might learn something

i just managed to go over 100vdc .. at like 30 rpm ... lol

hummmm

i just re configured it ... to use a aa and lite a led and recharge an aa and a cell fone battery ...

uses a hand full of stuff .. but only 2 coils single wire ..
running bout 25 rpm ... 15lbs of weight ...

been running bout 1 hour! like this ...

3 caps 2 diodes 1 bridge and a led ...

and it dont STOP ...

and this is basic toys ..

see now i aint even got 1 transistor in it! thats what the led is for ... you see it flashes ...

lmfao

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on January 28, 2010, 11:08:26 PM

. . . dopplegangers?

- - - - - -

Anyway, I was thinking about the Fujii circuit, ..isn't the transformer on that thing just a trigger coil? ...

The NPN PNP JTC derivative utilizes one, I was thinking there may be more to it than just the inductor though. I think there is something interesting going on between the two transistors, ..I can't seem to establish any frequency readings on the PNP transistor, it's as if it's always on.

I'm going to order some mosfets and see if I can't get the current usage reduced even more. I think that the FETS in enhancement mode, will be a more accurate portrayal of the Joule Thief's ability to transform low current, low voltage to high voltage in a resonant manner.

Someone posted a while back about tesla's voltage switch, I think the idea is to create the pulse ( obviously, i'm simply restating something been said here dozens if not hundreds of times before. ) ..the sudden voltage 'pings' the electrons out of the other side of the inductor with minimal magnetic losses, i'm just wondering how to maintain a flux there..

Perhaps sending the voltage through an already electrified field is the trick, one such that there is current flowing on one strand of a bifilar winding at a constance while yet another pulses, maybe a variant ripple would evolve that oscillates in such a way as to overcome the "edges of the tank" allowing something more to spill out.

I think that any source of ambient energy is going to have to use a source of electrons from somewhere, ..it needs a source, an explanation which warrants attention.

If FETS are used, then this represents that much less current being used, If voltage is a general effect, then it's that much less effected by current using a FET ..I can only see it using as much electrons to turn an enhancement mode MOS on as is equal to the junction capacitance ( negligible waste really ).

I thought that Litz-wire with a uniform jacket about a single-wire core may be an interesting test wire, the individual strands could be looped back upon themselves ina a series manner, while the inner single strand could have a unique path surrounded by these other wires. ..The core could them be pinged with high voltage, and otherwise tested. I've gotten a quote on litz wire, but it was something in excess of 4 dollars a foot..( impractical at this moment )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 28, 2010, 11:32:16 PM

sure they work well

i have bout 30 boards of em

but they like to blow up

i went through bout 400 bucks worth ... in a weekend ..

lol

then i got her working fine

but i only need 1 coil ...

lol

still a JT!
just a bit better ... then you need an oscolator to lock the freq...
or a freq genny...

less ya jt the gate .. to 30vdc and run the fet wide open ...

then she gonna bang!

: )

then use 12vdc source ... few amp ... now you gotts your self a tpu!

the jt is the osocolator .. then turn the dial till it ringggs ..

then you can go ahead and add the 3rd freq ... MY SWITCH IT! ... and it will blow shit up !

@ mk - 2 lol

who needs action when i gots me words? i tryed to re load you ... but im pretty sure your reed is BURNT OUT!

: )

YOU KNOW PROBALLY A GOOD idea for ya .. is quit playing the silly coil... i think it messed with ya brain!
my coils burnt out 1/4 meggawatt diode.... at a distance ...
dang thats how ya reed got burnt out! see i sent ya over a few ailen men theys gonna tune ya ... then ya gonna need da ice!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 28, 2010, 11:52:44 PM

@all
i bought two of these
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G17281 (http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G17281)
and they don't work in a 110 v socket.. junk..
and they are very hard to tear down.. i had to bust the glass.. and cut my finger :'(
i did find the problem.. the white wires are trash.. probably good thing they didn't work
(fire hazard)
just thought i'd let you guys know before you buy..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 28, 2010, 11:57:41 PM

Jadaro,
What are you trying to do?
I think I understand that you are trying to limit the amps draw.

Take a look at the" circuit"s thread where gadgetmall's posts about his refinement of the fuji ckt are at the beginning. He had a cfl running for a week or so on a fuji circuit. He did amazing things. I never could follow that fuji ckt well enough to do what he did. Remember Altrez?
He bought one of gadget's fuji boards and he said it did just what gadget claimed.

Check out that thread. It is right in the joule thief arena and is a locked thread.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 29, 2010, 12:02:56 AM

Kooler:

Thanks for the heads up on this. Safety for our members is always a good thing. there is a lot of crap coming out of China like that, but, there is also a lot of cheap cool stuff that seems to work fine. I guess we all just need to sort through it.

Posts like this are very helpful.

Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 29, 2010, 12:05:49 AM

Quote from: kooler on January 28, 2010, 11:52:44 PM
@all
i bought two of these
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G17281 (http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G17281)
and they don't work in a 110 v socket.. junk..
and they are very hard to tear down.. i had to bust the glass.. and cut my finger :'(
i did find the problem.. the white wires are trash.. probably good thing they didn't work
(fire hazard)
just thought i'd let you guys know before you buy..

Interesting.
These must be the first generation that got blown on the first plug in.
That is too much money for that.
The LoA bulbs that are being sold now are fine. (not glass, plastic bulb - easy tear down.)
However, my next door neighbor has a heavy motor he was pulsing one day. My lights were all dipping and seemed to be surging too. Everything survived (I have a tripp protector on my electronics) but that one LoA that was on got blown. I thought fuse, but 7 of the leds are gone and the rest are fine. strange.

Thanks for the warning.

jeanna
I have one unmodified one of those in a jtc that is really bright. I finally got it bright.
I will take a pic. If it is any good, I will post it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 29, 2010, 12:07:27 AM

Ist

I just watched your video , you did good for once . i don't think there are any strings ...

But in your video you clearly say it is a SSG bedini !!!

I know the only people that still plays with you are here (get attention) , but jt or not...

But you seem not to care about anything but your self .

We backed you many times in the past , we even got faraday out to protect you , you have no respect .

So be it .

You really think you helped , maybe only on page 814 now we all know what it means .

Mr. Half Tesla , you know so much how could you sell my dumb design in your E-store...

What nice equipment you have now ? wow things most be going good for you , you probably work for the government ... and that was a joke , i bet you will get it one the first .

I am the stupid one , but i must have fooled you first ...

The fact is less is more .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 29, 2010, 12:10:08 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on January 28, 2010, 11:08:26 PM
. . . dopplegangers?

- - - - - -

Anyway, I was thinking about the Fujii circuit, ..isn't the transformer on that thing just a trigger coil? ...

Actually no. The Fuji has a regular transformer that boosts the voltage to about 350 volts or so. This boosted voltage is then sent to the trigger coil on the board. via the cap I believe.

The way I, and I guess most of us, use the Fuji is just with the primary transformer. That trigger coil puts out about 4,000 volts I am told. I would like to mod a Fuji to use all of this BUT, since it was designed to only fire a xenon bulb for a second off of the cap, it may not run full time. But, then again, it might.

I don't know enough about electronics at this point to respond to the rest of your post. I do know others are using trigger coils successfully and I want to look into this. I have about 5 trigger coils salvaged from various camera boards.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 29, 2010, 12:23:57 AM

@jadaro

I am also looking into it , i just found in my scrap a tl494
(http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/tl494.html)
i can't believe how nice it is , i can also get the locally at around 3 dollars . In a PC psu.

They have two counters, it works for almost any configuration Boost, Buck, Flyback, Forward, Full-Bridge, Half-Bridge, Push-Pull. pwm included in one chip.

I also found a irf840 mosfet . This should be a good start , but i will need a pair .(tutorial on mosfet http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Te5YYVZiOKs)

I also know of watson blog , he made some joule thief , with 2n7000 mosfet.
http://watsonseblog.blogspot.com/2009/01/joule-thief-fet-only-is-topic.html.

This will make a great tool to test coils.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 29, 2010, 12:24:34 AM

the thing in the video ... is basic bedini .... nuttin more...

i have made bout 15 changes to it ... since that video..

lol

now its a lot more ...

still bairly basic TESLA!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 29, 2010, 12:36:26 AM

MK1:

Thank you so much for posting that Mosfet tutorial!! I never knew what they were exactly or how they worked. Now I do.

I love this topic!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 29, 2010, 12:58:55 AM

I just want to show you all that it really IS possible to get a real amount of light from a jtc light.
I have 2 pictures of the same lamp with the same UNmodified LoA light bulb. They are very close in brightness. The transistor I used was a TIP31c and the whole circuit is in the box, as you can clearly see it being lit by the light itself. I have turned off all other lamps and closed the door.
So, here are the pics. The captions kind of id them.
1-from the jtc
I just want to show you all that it really IS possible to get a real amount of light from a jtc light.
I have 2 pictures of the same lamp with the same UNmodified LoA light bulb. They are very close in brightness. The transistor I used was a TIP31c and the whole circuit is in the box, as you can clearly see it being lit by the light itself. I have turned off all other lamps and closed the door.
So, here are the pics. The captions kind of id them.

1-the JTC in a box,
2-The LoA from the JTC
3-The LoA plugged in to the wall

jeanna
I found some 3v rechargeable lithium AA's at wallmart yesterday.
Since this is 2 NiMH AAA totalling 2.4v, I am sure that lithium rechargeable will be AS bright as the wall, since this is sooo close.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 29, 2010, 01:12:11 AM

Jeanna:

Excellent comparison! We need more of this type of thing.

I believe you said the LOA bulbs are available at Walmart? I have not seen those at mine but, maybe I need to look for them.

Very well done.

Bill

***EDIT*** Actually, when I looked at your photos again I think the JT has the slight edge on brightness over the wall plug. Great job!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 29, 2010, 01:31:43 AM

Thanks Bill.
I just added another shot because I actually can use the other plug to light another unmodified LoA lamp from this same circuit.
The bulb is very yellow - warm they call it, and it does take some of the brightness from the first one, but I think this shows a lot of things, both about the jtc with secondary and the way the parallel circuits work together... you know tesla's idea.

Obviously, were I to use this in this way in an off the grid livingroom, I would have 2 matched lamps on either side of the table with similar color bulbs. And it would look great.

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 29, 2010, 01:36:16 AM

Jeanna:

Running both lamps from the JT! Seriously, you are an inspiration to all of us here to show what can be done. I am just so glad that all of us did not know enough to know this could not be done or none of us would have tried any of this.

I drink a toast you and your lights out there. Long may they glow.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 29, 2010, 02:10:17 AM

i did mention i built a dial a cortex machine .... well i stuck ma head in the vortex by accident ...

came out with this southern accent i can loose it ...

so

ENJOY MY NEXT VIDEO!

AND IM NOT MAKEING FUN OF ANYONE ... but that damm cortex thing did it to me ...

RE is A REAL NUT!

lol

ist!

OK i have achieved 3 freq from 1 coil 1 aa and 1 reed switch!

its a pulse motor then i DUBBLE BANG IT THEN I WOBBLE IT ... THEN I LOCK THE FREQ!

RE GARDS!

IST PULSE MOTOR PART #2

in this video i demo HOW TO WOBBLE TUNE A PULSE MOTOR WITH 3 FREQ... LOL : ) 1 REED SWITCH! THAT MEANS NO TRANSISTOR! DID TESLA USE JUNK ... YOU BET HE DID!

TELL ME AGIN HOW IT AINT MY WORK!!!!

LOVE PROVEING PEOPLE WRONG!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHPd9-Majso

THERE YA GO THANK YA VERRY MUCH!

UN HUN! : )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 29, 2010, 02:56:49 AM

MY NEXT VIDEO IS LOOK MOM ITS GOT NO BATTERIES ...

AND ITS IS RUNNING JUST FINE ...

TURNING A BIT OF WEIGHT!

UP NEXT!

ON MY REALITY LABS SHOW!

W

IT AINT REALITY LABS 4 NUT TIN IF YA CANT KEEP IT REAL HOW THE HELL CAN YA KEEP IT ...

YA KANT! LOL

! H

NO KIDDIN.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHbz6BqejQc guess the tube got half right extection on this one too ...

just missed 6bq7a

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 29, 2010, 04:29:34 AM

here a nutter smaker!

SIDE SPINN VORTEXES ... ON THE IST PULSE MOTOR

IDENTIFIED USING A COMPASS!

SILLY HUMANS!

YOU EVER GONNA WAKE UP ...

THEN YA GONNA PUT MY ROCKS ON!

I AINT ASKING ...

LOL

H

Title: IST! What did you do!?
Post by: sierraloewe on January 29, 2010, 05:43:43 AM

Saw your vids- that looks awesome! gonna tell us how did it?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on January 29, 2010, 08:04:08 AM

This is my bottled JT.
Hi All,

Heres another JT idea I tried out using a coaxial TV fly lead! I needed something to use as a former and luckily came across an interesting glass bottle. More interesting by the fact that it not only was labelled VODKA but it was not quite empty!! So I pondered and toiled over wether the contents may affect the experiment in some way. Ummmnnn... so at least a nano second passed by when I decided that the contents could most likely interupt the results. I then emptied the bottle and began to winnnnnnnddddd the cable around the bottttttlee.. ow bottle. 7 turns connected as a standard JJJJJJJTTTT woops sorry JT, and that was it. I'll try and hold the cammmmerra steeeadyy so you can see. Must go feeling somewhat p....d have fun CHEERS

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on January 29, 2010, 08:11:54 AM

Bottled JT

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on January 29, 2010, 08:14:07 AM

Sorry about the two images
Scope shot showing approx 26 volts from 1.5v batt.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on January 29, 2010, 08:23:29 AM

Quote from: crowclaw on January 29, 2010, 08:11:54 AM
Bottled JT

NICE...alcohol and experimentation!

Did you drink the bottle beforehand? lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 29, 2010, 10:44:26 AM

Why dont you just go out and disconnect one spark plug wire from your engine. Series connect a couple of thousand leds and use it for a new headlamp. As you raise the rpm of your motor the lights should get brighter because the leds will be blinking alot faster than the eye can detect. This is driving a load in a nonlinear manner. You can also use a tv set flyback transformer and connect the lead going to the picture tube to one end of the leds and the other end to an aluminum plate insulated from ground. The problem you will encounter in both situations is making sure there isnt an energy breakout before you get to the aluminum plate or the spark plug. This would mess up the voltage divide circuitry produced by the series connected leds.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on January 29, 2010, 11:01:11 AM

Sparks why dont you try that! and then actually post some pics and data!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on January 29, 2010, 11:04:16 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 29, 2010, 12:23:57 AM
@jadaro

I am also looking into it , i just found in my scrap a tl494
(http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/tl494.html)
i can't believe how nice it is , i can also get the locally at around 3 dollars . In a PC psu.

They have two counters, it works for almost any configuration Boost, Buck, Flyback, Forward, Full-Bridge, Half-Bridge, Push-Pull. pwm included in one chip.

I also found a irf840 mosfet . This should be a good start , but i will need a pair .(tutorial on mosfet http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Te5YYVZiOKs)

I also know of watson blog , he made some joule thief , with 2n7000 mosfet.
http://watsonseblog.blogspot.com/2009/01/joule-thief-fet-only-is-topic.html.

This will make a great tool to test coils.

I actually have some of those parts on the way, I'll be careful with them though, someone hinted that they blow easily.

I'm just trying to reduce power consumption and maximize peak to peak voltages.

Title: Re: IST! What did you do!?
Post by: innovation_station on January 29, 2010, 11:09:35 AM

Quote from: sierraloewe on January 29, 2010, 05:43:43 AM
Saw your vids- that looks awesome! gonna tell us how did it?

you know i like people to learn ...

but ... o well

here is a trick to employ after wards ...

take the blinking light opto coppuler it to a fet use hpg out put to smack a few dozen mots!

: )

im do the compas video demo next...

that lil duracell aa took the charge nicely .. 1.27vdc in it now .. i started at 1.204

in the self run i had 1 1pf cap non polar 1 db107 1 reed 1 coil

i had to spinn it up first ... so it ran on the engery i put in to it from my hands ..

15lbs takes some time to get up too speed .. once its there . way ya go!

H

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePjFAZKWKVo

ALL ROADS LEAD to the disco! AND IT JUST BROKE! : )

CUZ I GOTTS A LIST OF DEMANDS!

S W

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDMtaIcrfQ0&NR=1&feature=fvwp

ITS WRITTEN IN MY SKIN ON MY HANDS ...

LIST OF DEMANDS!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 29, 2010, 11:57:39 AM

Ist , i got you 90 hits in 4 hours , but only one person posted back.

Before i went to bed did not even have 30 hit .

I even got you your own topic .

You can thank me later.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 29, 2010, 12:07:39 PM

Will do sptrue.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 29, 2010, 12:21:55 PM

mk 1

love ya

im just playing H script ...

i know you better ... did we get your guy tar fixed!

BRO time for you to play yours .. aswell as everyone ..

: )

H

CUZ WE A BIG ROCK BAND AND WE GOTTS A BUNCH SPARE GUTAIRS : )

LOL LOVE OUT LOULD! CUZ I AM ABLE TO LOVE!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 29, 2010, 01:10:40 PM

@ ist

I watched your pulse motor #3 A and anything that runs without batteries is amazing. Great job. But, I still do not understand what you are doing. Does the rotating coil rotate just using the coils and reed switch assembly (without it being connected to anything else)?

Of course you do not care what I think, but just in case you might want some feedback, I think the A does not show how amazing your discovery really is because the batteries are there in the video. This discovery deserves a video that clearly shows that it runs with no batteries anywhere (and no big caps that it could be using for power).

Thanks for the video.

EDIT:This editor is really bad. It keeps replacing words with the letter A. I correct it one place and it chages it somewhere else. I fix that and it changes something else. :'(

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on January 29, 2010, 01:18:35 PM

Quote from: xee2 on January 29, 2010, 01:10:40 PM
@ ist

I watched your pulse motor #3 video and anything that runs without batteries is amazing. Great job. But, I still do not understand what you are doing. Does the rotating coil rotate just using the coils and reed switch assembly (without it being connected to anything else)?

Of course you do not care what I think, but just in case you might wants some feedback, I think the video does not show how amazing your discovery really is because the batteries are there in the video. This discovery deserves a video that clearly shows that it runs with no batteries anywhere.

WE ALL MUST GET THE IDEA OUT OF OUR HEADS THAT I DONT CARE ...

i care verry much for everyone ...

your words matter ...

everyones words do ...

please can you make a few longer videos ... of your work too !

there spinn vortexs that come off the 8 mag unit as there are with the 6 ...

it will do exactally as you say!

i know it !

i will try to make clearer easyer videos ... im just 1 guy tho ...

and i have tryed BUT I NEVER DID IT ALONE ... : )

NOT EVEN THE FIRST TIME ...

1 family

just 1

: )

and we all apart of it ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 29, 2010, 01:42:22 PM

@ ist

I do not have a video camera. My videos are from my cheap digital camera which does short videos that are usually out of focus. But, I can make drawings, so I will try to make a drawing of what you are doing and maybe you can make corrections to the drawings.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 29, 2010, 01:42:35 PM

If we have a dc motor and open the field on it so there is no limit to the rpm and adjust the input so that the impedance of the coils of the armature create resistance to limit the current flow through the circuit the armature converts the electrical energy of the scource into the mass velocity of the armature. Then if we engage a field winding the armature slows down and converts the energy stored in the spinning mass back into electrical energy. If you tap the currents going both ways then you have a winner.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: zhak on January 29, 2010, 01:48:07 PM

Quote from: jeanna on January 29, 2010, 12:58:55 AM
I just want to show you all that it really IS possible to get a real amount of light from a jtc light.

jeanna, good job, very good shining brightly!

what light bulb (light diode, or fluorescent) you use in a green lamp?
you connected 3v?
what options Ferit teroid?
shade play an important role?
Why so little bad light?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: zhak on January 29, 2010, 01:54:01 PM

for the overall development, the family of diodes
Pay attention to the crib to the crystal

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: mscoffman on January 29, 2010, 02:00:51 PM

Quote from: jeanna on January 29, 2010, 12:58:55 AM
I just want to show you all that it really IS possible to get a real amount of light from a jtc light.

I have 2 pictures of the same lamp with the same UNmodified LoA light bulb. They are very close in brightness. The transistor I used was a TIP31c and the whole circuit is in the box, as you can clearly see it being lit by the light itself. I have turned off all other lamps and closed the door.

Jeanna;

This is a good comparison but you should include a reference light fixture operated
from utility power in both photos as your cammera may compensate for differences
in illumination using an AGC automatic gain control. I believe what you are saying
though. Saves a lot of wondering.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on January 29, 2010, 02:20:59 PM

Quote from: stprue link=topic=6123.msg225554#msg225554
Did you drink the bottle beforehand? lol
/quote]
Hi stprue,
Yes... may be that accounted for the doubled up photo's!! can also confirm that the results are fairly consistant using a Whisky bottle... before and after.
If the experiment doesn't work out for any reason I can guarantee you'll feel very warm inside.
BTW it works just as well without the bottle of course. Thanks for the reply.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 29, 2010, 02:40:40 PM

@ ist

What other parts are needed?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 29, 2010, 03:49:46 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 29, 2010, 03:03:52 PM
the magnet ..

Where does the magnet go? Should I make it a small cube magnet, a disk magnet, something else?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 29, 2010, 04:46:18 PM

Quote from: mscoffman on January 29, 2010, 02:00:51 PM
Jeanna;

This is a good comparison but you should include a reference light fixture operated
from utility power in both photos as your cammera may compensate for differences
in illumination using an AGC automatic gain control. I believe what you are saying
though. Saves a lot of wondering.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Well, this is the same light powered by the 2 different sources.
I cannot do another light without adding a lot more variables.
In fact this is a great suggestion but at $10 a pop for the lamp shade of any material I went for the silk and the best brightness, but there was only one silk one the other day.

I figure the camera compensates in the same way for each situation since it is the same bulb and I assume the IR from the same bulb will not change from the jtc and the wall, but um....
Even with extra light in the room the camera can compensate.

The picture where the lamp is plugged into the wall outlet (utility power) is a little brighter which you can see best by looking at the underneath side of the bulge in the green lamp. There is more ambient glow from the room that is reflecting back in that shadow.
That is about it, however.
The 2 lamps on 1 plug are showing what is probably the maximum light possible from that circuit, since it is brighter all together, yet each is dimmer than if either bulb is on alone.

Thanks for the suggestion.
When I go back with a pocketful of change, I will be getting another silk shade for the matched thrift store lamp. Hopefully this style has not been discontinued!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 29, 2010, 05:12:36 PM

Quote from: zhak on January 29, 2010, 01:48:07 PM
jeanna, good job, very good shining brightly!

thank you

Quotewhat light bulb (light diode, or fluorescent) you use in a green lamp?

20 wide light diodes in series.
This is a commercial bulb.
I made no modifications.

Quoteyou connected 3v?

2 AAA, these are about 2.4v (maybe less. They are at 2.33v today.)

Quotewhat options Ferit teroid?

Please see the picture
Toroid = ~2.5cm diameter
4T,6T,57T -- I think!
TIP31c transistor
~390-410v on secondary

Quoteshade play an important role?

yes.
It is silk which spreads the light best.

Quote
Why so little bad light?

I do not understand this question.
Are you referring to the little light?
This is a different color and looks less bright.
When these 2 are sharing the same joule thief circuit (jtc) they are both less bright than when either one is on by itself, but the total light is greater than just one.

Here is a picture of the 20LEDs bulb that I used.
All 20 are called "straw hat" and are like the "wide diode" one you show.
This is also the same circuit that I used in yesterday's picture.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on January 29, 2010, 11:01:29 PM

@Jeanna

I cant remember who it was that was driving the xenon bulb with a second stage jt. sptrue wants me to do a hvoltage series connected string of leds driven from a high voltage scource. I was wondering if you could give me the name of the poster who was doing the works with an scr driving an ignition coil or it could have been a mot. If he was to replace the xeon with a very long string of leds he might satisfy my curiousity as to how bright a light you can get from a jt. Otherwise I gotta go out and buy ALOT of leds and ballasting for the 2or3kvs you get from an ignition coil setup. I think Bill did a string of led/s that lit off of one wire a while back. I dont know if this was before the jt became so popular but I thought that was kinda cool.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 29, 2010, 11:03:24 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 29, 2010, 10:45:58 PM
J I LOVE IT ! I DUBBLE LOVE IT ... LOL

your wild! : )

you brave enough to plugg it into the wall ? .... yikes ...

just imagine it ran with 110vac 15 amp ... oouch!

: )

I think you do not understand.
I made a joule thief and attached the secondary wires to the wall plug thing from the hardware store.
This allows me to use an UNmodified LoA 20 leds bulb.

I had been having the problem that it would never stop cycling even with the lamp switch off,
That is because of the capacitors in the bulb.
So, this way, I can move this little joule thief power uni (JTPU) ( ;) ) to a spot near this lamp and I can plug it into the joule thief secondary.
But, since it is an unmodified bulb, I can also plug it into the wall in the normal way.

I modified the switch and plug, not the bulb this time!! ;D,

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 29, 2010, 11:42:45 PM

Quote from: sparks on January 29, 2010, 11:01:29 PM
the name of the poster who was doing the works with an scr driving an ignition coil

That was kooler

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 29, 2010, 11:44:38 PM

@ ist

I assume the bridge and the capacitor get hooked to the spool of wire. Does anything get hooked to the copper wire around the spinning disk?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 30, 2010, 12:20:56 AM

i'm looking for people with a plasma ball/globe and a 3V incandescent bulb (like from an old school 2 battery flashlight) to verify something for me.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 30, 2010, 12:33:22 AM

@ ist

I am trying to diagram what you did in video #3 for you no battery motor. If this is not what you did, please tell me how to correct it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 30, 2010, 12:38:18 PM

@ ist

What is missing?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 30, 2010, 01:31:16 PM

xee2,
See if you wave the magnet near this coil if it will start up.
It is possible that once started the magnet needs only to be placed correctly.
I don't know, but I caught ist telling us something about a wave, but that might have been a verb, not a noun.

Worth a try, anyway.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 30, 2010, 01:48:46 PM

Quote from: jeanna on January 30, 2010, 01:31:16 PM
xee2,
See if you wave the A near this coil if it will A.
It is possible that once started the magnet needs only to be placed correctly.
I don't know, but I caught ist telling us something about a wave, but that might have been a verb, not a noun.

Worth a try, anyway.

jeanna

Does not make sense to me. But please let me know what your results are when you try it.

EDIT: None of the pulse motors I have made would run without batteries no matter what was done to them.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 30, 2010, 02:09:15 PM

I'm not making it at least for now.
I just thought this might help with the translation.

I agree.
There must be some input coming from somewhere, but the cap and coil along with the magnets and reed switch might oscillate for some time.
Maybe someone making one of those big coils will try it.
I am trying to finish up something so I can move around in a clear space for a while.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 30, 2010, 03:23:37 PM

@ ist

That is great (I guess). But what has to be added to the drawing to make it like your no battery motor in video 3? So far, I do not think any of us understnad what you were showing in the video. Was it really a motor that would run without a battery, or was it just some kind of stupid joke? And if it is a joke, why are you wasting our time with things like this?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on January 30, 2010, 04:05:00 PM

IST you should start a thread for this device, It has little to do with the Joule Thief; it is tangential.

- - - - - -

I was reading a few hundred posts back about someone using a diode from base to emitter with improved results? is this true? ..does this recirculate current and voltage back into the toroid?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 30, 2010, 04:39:53 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on January 30, 2010, 04:05:00 PM
IST you should start a thread for this device, It has little to do with the Joule Thief; it is tangential.

- - - - - -

I was A a few hundred posts back about someone using a diode from base to emitter with improved results? is this true? ..does this recirculate current and voltage back into the toroid?

I agree it is not Joule thief. But it ist has been a long time participant in this thread and if he has actually made this amazing discovery then I think it should be discussed. Of course, if it is a fraud it is just wasting space and he should probably be put on read-only for posting false research results.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on January 30, 2010, 04:45:54 PM

We need to replicate to see if its real. If it is as simple as your diagram xee that it should not take to much time. I have neo mags longer cylinders (not sure if this will work). Have we determined if it is a copper disk?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 30, 2010, 04:50:47 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on January 30, 2010, 04:05:00 PM

I was reading a few hundred posts back about someone using a diode from base to emitter with improved results? is this true? ..does this recirculate current and voltage back into the toroid?

Ummm
Not the B-E

Bedini circuits have a diode there to protect the transistor base from damage caused by the flyback coming from the emitter.

But,
If I follow what you are asking about, it was gadget who could collect a substantial amount of real charge by collecting it across the C-E

I think if you go to the ssjt thread which in itself is filled with garbola, you will see it discussed and described there.
Maybe you are talking about something else. If so...sorry,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on January 30, 2010, 04:54:28 PM

I though the diode was placed in between the resistor to the base...maybe not!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 30, 2010, 04:58:46 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on January 30, 2010, 04:05:00 PM
I was reading a few hundred posts back about someone using a diode from base to emitter with improved results? is this true? ..does this recirculate current and voltage back into the toroid?

I can not think of any way it would help. Maybe someone else can.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on January 30, 2010, 05:20:41 PM

Quote from: xee2 on January 30, 2010, 12:38:18 PM
@ ist

What is missing?

xee2 plyz viev video ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KitticUZdnI
2000 page free energy free bok send 5 min., or save compiuter
http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/PJKBook.html
FREE ENERGY FREE INFO
http://www.youtube.com/user/FreeEnergyInfo
ANTANAS

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 30, 2010, 05:26:31 PM

@ ist

Quote from: innovation_station on January 30, 2010, 05:01:32 PM
NO IT AINT A DAMM A !

AND YES IT IS A DAMM JT!

PEROID!

H

NEVERMIND THE COPPER DISC I AINT NEED IT .. ONLY FOR WEIGHT !

SO THINK ABOUT IT !

OK. I will play guess the circuit. Is this it?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on January 30, 2010, 06:03:26 PM

Quote from: xee2 on January 30, 2010, 04:39:53 PM
I agree it is not Joule thief. But it ist has been a long time participant in this thread and if he has actually made this amazing discovery then I think it should be discussed. Of course, if it is a fraud it is just wasting space and he should probably be put on read-only for posting false research results.

LOL, harsh true and true, and then...

If everyone's claims or posits were taken with merit, then false positives would overcome us all. Needing verification and claiming none needed are two different things.

I think it wise to isolate device descriptions to one post, if it's off topic, provide a link to where it is on topic, otherwise it's just misplaced information - the resultant conversation regarding it is also off topic, as well as any other tangential information.

Although this thread is famous for such things, they eventually find their way to their own threads, better sooner rather than later.

Penalizing someone for misplaced information is something I would isolate to government agencies and other critically needed things. ( please, keep any tangential conspiracies to their own threads )

:P ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on January 30, 2010, 06:05:39 PM

Quote from: xee2 on January 30, 2010, 05:26:31 PM
@ ist

OK. I will play guess the circuit. Is this it?

xe2 = MAIN ,THIS CIRCUT IST OK....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KitticUZdnI
ANTANAS
http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/PJKBook.html

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on January 30, 2010, 06:06:40 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on January 30, 2010, 05:01:32 PM
NO IT AINT A DAMM JOKE !

AND YES IT IS A DAMM JT!

PEROID!

H

NEVERMIND THE COPPER DISC I AINT NEED IT .. ONLY FOR WEIGHT !

SO THINK ABOUT IT !

If it's a JTC, then is it one with a rotating solenoidal core? This would satisfy my interests, but it would still be a derivative.

In any event, any useless metal can be replaced with magnetically non-reactive ceramics, plaster, or concrete for weight.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 30, 2010, 08:03:54 PM

IST:

There is already a topic for your motor experiments here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8712.msg225753#new (http://index.php?topic=8712.msg225753#new)

It is probably a good idea to post about it over there and not here on the JT topic.

Thanks,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 30, 2010, 08:36:49 PM

@jadaro

IF you use a diode , it may raise the voltage , but you will get the same by tuning the base resistor.

@bill

I think you are right , but if ist get discredited in a outside tread his reputation will not survive, now why doesn't he want to share this one or make a new film really showing it , is beyond me , or he is laying and hopes we figure how to do it before its to late , and than say there are many ways...

Any how we probably never know , this may be the only way he found to stay useful , and keep posting 5 times a page.

@ist

Put up or shut up.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 30, 2010, 08:47:15 PM

@ist

1000 time and still people don't get it , you really must be some bright puppy .

Now you are asking for it , you really think you are helping anyone is beyond me .

I am really sadden by what you are doing to this tread .
Everyone makes en effort around here to accept you , and what we get in exchange , is insults .

Nature born troll , that is what you are .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 30, 2010, 09:34:28 PM

I am sorry people , i got enough of his crap , i will take a break, i may come back but most likely i will find i new home.

Ist thank for destroying this topic , and you really think you are doing good .

You really think you can legitimize your work , by acting like a moron .

So you what , that would be the first time you did it on purpose .

And by the way my new coil is great , if there ever was a jt capable of self run that would be it...

So keep making money form other people's work .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: eastcoastwilly on January 30, 2010, 09:47:50 PM

Lord help me,

I have never in my life seen so much garbage coming from anybody on the entire Internet ...

How in the name of God does someone get to accumulate hundreds of "entire pages of utter nonsensical foolishness in this thread ?

I am mostly a lurker in these type of forums, however I have learned so much from the hard working folks on this site (and others) that it makes me almost ill to have this retard posting absolutely nothing but total fantasy.

Reading this cats' posts almost makes me think that "I" am dyslexic because I can't make any sense of his goddamn foolishness.

Sorry if I seem a little whiny, I am having a few "pops", but it's degrading (and embarrassing) to the work of people on this site to have this gearbox posting his foolishness.

Thank you Very much,
Will

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on January 30, 2010, 10:02:58 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 30, 2010, 09:34:28 PM
I am sorry people , i got enough of his crap , i will take a break, i may come back but most likely i will find i new home.

Ist thank for destroying this topic , and you really think you are doing good .

You really think you can legitimize your work , by acting like a moron .

So you what , that would be the first time you did it on purpose .

And by the way my new coil is great , if there ever was a jt capable of self run that would be it...

So keep making money form other people's work .

Have you no shame Because of their swearing Live and Work PEACE ....
ANTANAS

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 30, 2010, 11:01:21 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on January 30, 2010, 09:34:28 PM
I am sorry people , i got enough of his crap , i will take a break, i may come back but most likely i will find i new home.
...

And by the way my new coil is great , if there ever was a jt capable of self run that would be it...

Maybe if you keep posting your things the focus can change to that??
I think it is a shame if you stop sharing your results, just because someone here annoys you. He isn't even flaming YOU! or if he is, nobody is listening.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 30, 2010, 11:30:25 PM

***IST's posts removed by the Moderator.***

They will continue to be removed unless they are on topic.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 30, 2010, 11:35:05 PM

@jeanna

I really think that posting my work here only to be buried by someone like ist , sorry i use to have fun reading all your contribution , and the synergy we had to better this world.

Now i have been ignoring ist post for the last 6 month , i even stopped working on FE , i was just getting back , but this tread now is useless , most people don't come around anymore , Because IST is too advance for us ...

I work from my own will , now the will is gone .

I will not have my work stolen by this jerk anymore .

I was giving all my info for everyone , But now no one gets it .

Ist like the spot light . He can't get his own spot so he uses the jt tread , and really doesn't care about others , otherwise he would make a schematic , and not insult people by saying 1000 ways you have to learn.

I begin to seriously think , that he is lying to our face .

If i share 2 things can happen , it get buried or stolen .

Franky , we have this guy that knows everything (according to him self) but no one actually could replicate his work , because he doesn't care about others .

I have no intention of posting my work here ever again .

I would like to say i have made good friends around here i will be missing you guys.

Thanks You Jeanna , Bill , Jim , Xee , gadget , and i forget many others , but i thank you all !

I will find somewhere else to make my work known .

Title: Re: Jule Thief little orange toroid
Post by: jeanna on January 30, 2010, 11:41:04 PM

Hi everybody,
I just finished a drain test on the jtc with 42 leds and the little orange toroid I got from a 10w cfl base.
I made a 7 in series 6 in parallel string of leds 42 leds in all to test.

This is the first test.
The light draws 32.9mA which is good considering how many are in parallel and 42 leds all together.
My AAA NiMH drained in 7 hours which means the useful life of the battery is about half of the rated amount, which is what I have always suspected.
So, this lamp will last for 4, 5+ hour evenings on a AA rechargeable. I could try it on a used alkaline for a run test, to see how low the AA battery can be to still light the lamp.

Anyway that is what I have been up to (plus a photoshoot of my whole family of lamps for a slideshow.)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 30, 2010, 11:47:09 PM

I am sorry, Mark.
You do really good work.
You were the one who told me how to remove the basic led and only use the secondary.
I have been wanting to see your results with this cardboard toroid. I think the world could use it, if it does work out.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pardon on January 30, 2010, 11:49:16 PM

wow and i have learned so much from you Mk. I just wish I had a way to show you the tube I have and was thinking of using.

Jeanna may i ask if your new way of winding coils works good even on small toroids. I am asking because I just can't seem to be able to go over 40 volts. even tho I have tried like 30 times with various toroids and sizes

Dennis

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 31, 2010, 12:30:28 AM

Quote from: Pardon on January 30, 2010, 11:49:16 PM

Jeanna may i ask if your new way of winding coils works good even on small toroids. I am asking because I just can't seem to be able to go over 40 volts. even tho I have tried like 30 times with various toroids and sizes

Dennis

Hi Dennis,
Several things come to mind.
1- the transistor makes a big difference.
I get double or triple the volts when I use the TIP31 or 3055 over what I get when I use the 2N3904, or 2222.
This comes at an cost of higher amps draw.The transistor takes battery power, and that is all there is to it. The little ones take less and give back less, so match your transistor to the application.
2- the tuning of the primary in respect to the toroid.
Did you tune it? and how?
This means you wind the primary windings and prove the jt works, then remove the led from the C-E junction and wind some, maybe 5 to 10 turns around the toroid and sand the ends of the mag wire.

Now, if you are using a dmm, you will have 10-100 times what the dmm shows, so watch out.

Test the small secondary by holding one led and lightly touching the other lead to a leg. If there is no light then reverse the wires. (and make a mental note or you will make yourself nuts.)

OK, so you have the polarity right, now take the base resistor which should be a 1k pot, and slowly turn the pot til you get a bright spot.
Now, you can measure that resistance with the ohms meter on your dmm.
Many times I find 2 bright spots. I ALWAYS use the one that is a higher ohm value for 2 reasons.
lower amps draw
no threat of overheating the transistor

Now, you add and subtract a few of those primary turns.
The numbers here relate to the permeability of the toroid and you just have to slog through this.
One by one take out base turns til the light stops brightening
Then one by one remove collector turns with the same thing in mind.
Usually the jtc works MUCH better with fewer turns on the base.

You can try for the best light by turning the pot, but I find that I don't need to do that until I get close, but MK1 and Gary like to sweep the pot each time.

OK
Now for the secondary,
with the primary at it's best-so-far numbers change the turns on the secondary until the led is too bright.
Now, figure that number of turns per led and wind away.

I have used that new method since I discovered it for all but my last one.
I find IF the toroid is a good one, and I guess you have tried many? that the problem could be that you have put on too many turns and choked it.
I rescued one with that problem by unwinding about 30 turns then since the volts were back up, I just rewound the turns with the scramble method, just all in one row, but not precise and away from the ends.
I think you can choke it by getting too close to the primary.
I used some cotton string and wound 3 turns around the outside ends of the primary and it helped a lot.

Please let me know how this works.
Anybody else with ideas, please jump in to help.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pardon on January 31, 2010, 01:13:47 AM

Quote from: jeanna on January 31, 2010, 12:30:28 AM
Hi Dennis,
Several things come to mind.
1- the transistor makes a big difference.
I get double or triple the volts when I use the TIP31 or 3055 over what I get when I use the 2N3904, or 2222.

2- the A of the primary in respect to the toroid.
Did you tune it? and how?

Now for the secondary,
with the primary at it's best-so-far numbers change the turns on the secondary until the led is too bright.
Now, figure that number of turns per led and wind away.

I think you can choke it by getting too close to the primary.
I used some A and wound 3 turns around the outside ends of the primary and it helped a lot.

Please let me know how this works.
Anybody else with ideas, please jump in to help.

jeanna

thanks for the help. i will switch to a tip31 or 3055. i used mks tuning instructions. but i didn't readjust the pot after making coil changes. but i think you gave me the answer. I now believe i am choking it. i will try the string trick. I must have missed the small secondary 1 led windings step.

just tonight i wound a tor-53 with a 6t base and 6t collector. it's so bright i can hardly look at it. it pulls 10.2 ma with a 1k base resistor using a 3904 trans.

again thanks for the help

Dennis

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pardon on January 31, 2010, 01:19:08 AM

Quote from: jeanna on January 31, 2010, 12:30:28 AM
Hi Dennis,
Several things come to mind.
1- the transistor makes a big difference.
I get double or triple the volts when I use the TIP31 or 3055 over what I get when I use the 2N3904, or 2222.
This comes at an cost of higher amps draw.The transistor takes battery power, and that is all there is to it. The little ones take less and give back less, so match your transistor to the application.
2- the tuning of the primary in respect to the toroid.
Did you tune it? and how?
This means you wind the primary windings and prove the jt works, then remove the led from the C-E junction and wind some, maybe 5 to 10 turns around the toroid and sand the ends of the mag wire.

Now, if you are using a dmm, you will have 10-100 times what the dmm shows, so watch out.

Test the small secondary by holding one led and lightly touching the other lead to a leg. If there is no light then reverse the wires. (and make a mental note or you will make yourself nuts.)

OK, so you have the polarity right, now take the base resistor which should be a 1k pot, and slowly turn the pot til you get a bright spot.
Now, you can measure that resistance with the ohms meter on your dmm.
Many times I find 2 bright spots. I ALWAYS use the one that is a higher ohm value for 2 reasons.
lower amps draw
no threat of overheating the transistor

Now, you add and subtract a few of those primary turns.
The numbers here relate to the permeability of the toroid and you just have to slog through this.
One by one take out base turns til the light stops brightening
Then one by one remove collector turns with the same thing in mind.
Usually the jtc works MUCH better with fewer turns on the base.

You can try for the best light by turning the pot, but I find that I don't need to do that until I get close, but MK1 and Gary like to sweep the pot each time.

OK
Now for the secondary,
with the primary at it's best-so-far numbers change the turns on the secondary until the led is too bright.
Now, figure that number of turns per led and wind away.

I have used that new method since I discovered it for all but my last one.
I find IF the toroid is a good one, and I guess you have tried many? that the problem could be that you have put on too many turns and choked it.
I rescued one with that problem by unwinding about 30 turns then since the volts were back up, I just rewound the turns with the scramble method, just all in one row, but not precise and away from the ends.
I think you can choke it by getting too close to the primary.
I used some A and wound 3 turns around the outside ends of the primary and it helped a lot.

Please let me know how this works.
Anybody else with ideas, please jump in to help.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 31, 2010, 01:22:12 AM

***IST's posts removed by the Moderator.***

They will continue to be removed unless they are on topic.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 31, 2010, 02:03:21 AM

The "World Light"
Hoping teenagers around the world will be able to put together some lights from used cfl bulbs to make lights for the people in the village.
My contribution for the world to be a brighter place!!

http://www.youtube.com/user/jeannacav#p/a/u/0/GAMnnyD7VQc (http://www.youtube.com/user/jeannacav#p/a/u/0/GAMnnyD7VQc)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 31, 2010, 02:11:52 AM

Jeanna:

Very well done. I had another 2 cfls burn out in the last week or so which gives me plenty of parts to try this.

The toroids in the cfls I have seem to be the painted sintered iron ones, is this what you used?

Great presentation. I have not yet figured out how to place photos in my videos yet. That looked really good.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 31, 2010, 02:45:31 AM

I took it off.
The last pic which is a bright beauty got clipped off. It only flashes one frame.
I will redo it in the morning.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on January 31, 2010, 02:49:04 AM

I noticed that loading the toroid on a tertiary causes effects, not sure how profound, but they are destructive on the derivative that I built.

I thought that, on a standard setup, with two driving coils and a large secondary, a small tertiary coil be incorporated.

The tertiary coil be three to four winds of copper, rather than attaching this to anything that creates light, it could have a varistor / potentiometer attached between it's leads which creates a shunting load - this may have the effect of an electrically isolated tuning apparatus.

This thought was inspired by IST's tuning coil mod, but it makes a simple effect and uses less equipment.

Not sure how useful this would be though, as the circuit goes into resonance as it already is, the idea would be tuning for both directions of the flux, as the potentiometer usually has three leads, an optimum could be set; using previous data - a diode on the middle lead, and have the other ends connected normally ..this would allow less resistance in one direction than in another and thus circulating pulses and magnetic fields could be experimented.

Red is the mod, green are the common coils to base and emitter, while blue is the secondary.

As is, the image is most basic in design, the idea would be to first find an optimum for each direction and incorporate additive or subtractive resistance as needed.

edits: had to sign it, been forgetting that lately. ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on January 31, 2010, 03:54:45 AM

Here is a pic of those small toroid's found in CFL's this one is seen as removed and has three windings. What I have done is wired up as a JT without rewinding the coils. The yellow wind is left untouched. The scope screen PC shot shows the wave form, and the circuit was running at 1.5 volts with a 10K adjusting pott. Frequency 158KHz. I just put this in for those new members who want to try the "Joule Thief" circuit out using scrap.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on January 31, 2010, 03:57:24 AM

PC sope shot of small toriod

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 31, 2010, 04:00:58 AM

Crowclaw:

Very nice. Thank you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 31, 2010, 12:59:41 PM

@ crowclaw

You have some very good posts. Thanks. Was the voltage in the scope shots across the collector-emitter?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on January 31, 2010, 01:10:58 PM

Quote from: xee2 on January 31, 2010, 12:59:41 PM
@ crowclaw

You have some very good posts. Thanks. Was the voltage in the scope shots across the collector-emitter?

Hi xee2,
Thanks for your reply. Yes the scope shot was across the CE junction.
Regards Merv

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 31, 2010, 01:34:44 PM

@ crowclaw

Your scope shots are excellent. Would you be willing to post a dual trace shot with the CE on one channel and the voltage across the base resistor on the other channel? I do not have a scope so I can not do this, but I think it would be interesting.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 31, 2010, 01:58:36 PM

@all Friends and Experimenters
Hi . a LOT has happened in the few weeks i have been away . First . My computer contracted the internet security 2010 red X virus and ate my hard drive up . I tried everything under the sun and i am a computer EXPERT ! It failed and eventually all the important system files files were infected and i ended up reinstalling Xp . well after three days the rex X came back and i ended up after a week of trying to save anything ,formated my 25 years worth of migrated information and lost everything :( the sad thing is i had most of it backed up on an external hard drive (rock usb 200gig ) and it will not turn on and does the deadly Click click click . dead backup :( so all the address of the good people i saved to send boards out to are also on the list as well as everything except some email i synced on My moto q cell phone and the new u3 flash drive . .
I know this is off topic but i thought everyone deserved and explination as to why no boards have been sent . this is the first day i have been on the internet since the incidents . and it was all because i was trying to WIFI my computer connection to my dear Daughters Wii . I dropped the firewall for three hours and got RED X :( the other thing is we have been without power since friday . We were expecting a BIG snow friday . we woke up to nothing :( and later on freezing rain and later on ICE STORM and Trees are falling on powerlines all on the east coast . My yard is a frozen icecicle . all the trees had one inch ice on them . so power is back on this morning and we await another blackout tonight as the freeze does its thing . Asia was SO upset that everyone got snow but us :(
Ok on topic . Gl and i are still nailing a problem with the board for the Jt /bcap setup . it will eventually go into a recharge loop and drain the unit. While the other setup without any electronics continues to run now almost 2 months fro the same battery . I recycle the power on that one with the light bulb regulator . so after many reprograms of the PIC controler we are now at the stage where a few additions are necessary to make the controller work properly . I have not read any messages other than a few on this page so i see IST is acting up as usual . I hope he has got his stuff he begged me to buy for him . Mrmags helped him get the shipping . Ok well i'll send this post and then do a virus scan .. later guys . BTW I had every joule thief running for a few days now so at least we had GOOD light . including all the fuji cfls and Jeanna light i have not boxed up yet . take care over and out .

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on January 31, 2010, 02:22:52 PM

Quote from: xee2 on January 31, 2010, 01:34:44 PM
@ crowclaw

Your scope shots are excellent. Would you be willing to post a dual trace shot with the CE on one channel and the voltage across the base resistor on the other channel? I do not have a scope so I can not do this, but I think it would be interesting.

Hi xee2,
No problem... I take it you want to see the base drive signal BE? as soon as I get a chance Ill post the pics. Regards

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on January 31, 2010, 02:55:58 PM

@ crowclaw

Quote from: crowclaw on January 31, 2010, 02:22:52 PM
Hi xee2,
No problem... I take it you want to see the base drive signal BE? as soon as I get a chance Ill post the pics. Regards

The voltage across the resistor shows which way the current is flowing. I suspect that there is a reverse current that helps turn the transistor off quickly and is responsible for the large voltage spike across the coil (voltage = rate of change of current). The spike does not seem to be as large if the tansisor is driven with a square wave.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 31, 2010, 03:39:26 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnNQrYy_Bw4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnNQrYy_Bw4)
Tiny orange toroid slide show on youtube.

This time I checked it before I posted the address.
Sorry for last night's boo boo.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 31, 2010, 03:43:50 PM

Quote from: jeanna on January 31, 2010, 03:39:26 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnNQrYy_Bw4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnNQrYy_Bw4)
Tiny orange toroid slide show on youtube.

This time I checked it before I posted the address.
Sorry for last night's boo boo.

jeanna

nice! you deserve a standing ovation.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on January 31, 2010, 04:15:01 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on January 31, 2010, 02:49:04 AM
I noticed that loading the toroid on a tertiary causes effects, not sure how profound, but they are destructive on the derivative that I built.

I thought that, on a standard setup, with two driving coils and a large secondary, a small tertiary coil be incorporated.

The tertiary coil be three to four winds of copper, rather than attaching this to anything that creates light, it could have a varistor / potentiometer attached between it's leads which creates a shunting load - this may have the effect of an electrically isolated tuning apparatus.

This thought was inspired by IST's tuning coil mod, but it makes a simple effect and uses less equipment.

Not sure how useful this would be though, as the circuit goes into resonance as it already is, the idea would be tuning for both directions of the flux, as the potentiometer usually has three leads, an optimum could be set; using previous data - a diode on the middle lead, and have the other ends connected normally ..this would allow less resistance in one direction than in another and thus circulating pulses and magnetic fields could be experimented.

Red is the mod, green are the common coils to base and emitter, while blue is the secondary.

As is, the image is most basic in design, the idea would be to first find an optimum for each direction and incorporate additive or subtractive resistance as needed.

edits: had to sign it, been forgetting that lately. ;D

Try adding inductors with each light output. Add them in series.

If the inductance is close enough to the resonance of the main (green) circuit, it will allow each light or light group to be not effected by the others on other winding.
I think I called this "multiple secondaries", and made a series of videos about it.

Enjoy that, but do try the inductors.
My experience says, once you get it right a cap will keep it going better, but get the inductor right first.

jeanna

edit
Thanks, wilby
-------------------

Quote from: crowclaw on January 31, 2010, 03:54:45 AM
Here is a pic of those small toroid's found in CFL's this one is seen as removed and has three windings. What I have done is wired up as a JT without rewinding the coils. The yellow wind is left untouched. The scope screen PC shot shows the wave form, and the circuit was running at 1.5 volts with a 10K adjusting pott. Frequency 158KHz. I just put this in for those new members who want to try the "Joule Thief" circuit out using scrap.

I guess we are on the same wavelength here, crowclaw!!
This is great information.
I had destroyed the shorter wires and could only reuse the longer one.
158KHz... wow!
10K pot.
This is so great.
And those scope shots. I agree with xee2. I would like to see the 2 trace.
Also if you wind a 10 turns secondary-pickup around that toroid and take a scope shot of that too. I would really like to see that too.
thank you,
jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 01, 2010, 12:03:40 AM

Jeanna:

As I said before fixed the end of your video, nice job. I really think you should get an award for that. I am serious.

Did you say what voltage you were able to obtain from that small painted toroid? I have some new ideas I have been thinking about that I want to try but, I have to pay some bills first.

Again, excellent job there.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 01, 2010, 12:19:52 AM

Hi Bill,

I got 55-65 spiky volts with 10 turns. It was just a preliminary try.
Later I wound 3 or 4 more turns to use the remaining wire and I checked the voltage before risking the leds, and the volts were 65v at 63 Khz, but now, they were steady and did not dip into the 50's. I know the pic says 59v but that was before I added the last few turns.
I got almost 4 volts from 1 1/2 turns, so I lit that one led and it was bright too.

I just hope people will be able to make their own. It was not a teaching demo, of course, but just information of what is possible.

High hopes for the world,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on February 01, 2010, 01:42:30 PM

Quote from: xee2 on January 31, 2010, 01:34:44 PM
@ crowclaw

Your scope shots are excellent. Would you be willing to post a dual trace shot with the CE on one channel and the voltage across the base resistor on the other channel? I do not have a scope so I can not do this, but I think it would be interesting.

Hi xee2,
Hope tyhis scope shot is ok. Channel A = CE and channel B = BE junctions. Regards

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on February 01, 2010, 01:59:40 PM

@ Jeanna,

Excellent video and well done to you. I will try out what you say but I think the better plan is to remove the windings and do as you have done. The CFL toroid has three colours, green = 9 turns, black = 2 and yellow = 2. Didn't use the yellow. The green I used for the collector and the black for feedback to the base. Again it was just to show what could be achieved. merv

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 01, 2010, 02:56:01 PM

@crowclaw

[A author=crowclaw link=topic=6123.msg226107#msg226107 date=1265049750]
Hi xee2,
Hope tyhis scope A is ok. Channel A = CE and channel B = BE junctions. Regards
[/quote]

Unfortunately it is very hard to see the trace for the voltage across the resistor. Is it where I have marked? I was hoping the resistor voltage would show that current reversed in resistor before the C-E spike. In any case, your help is appreciated, thanks. If I understand your scope shot it would seem that the voltage across the resistor never goes negative and thus the current does not reverse in the base resistor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on February 01, 2010, 03:17:57 PM

Hi xee2,
I'll try and capture more meaning full shots for you when I get a chance. I understand what you want to see. Thanks for your interest. Regards

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 01, 2010, 05:24:10 PM

@xee

I was just thinking about his motor , and i can bet the cap is a 0.047 F and precharged , essentially a battery . We can see it in the last moment of the film when he show's the battery charging .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 01, 2010, 07:40:22 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 01, 2010, 05:24:10 PM
@xee

I was just thinking about his motor , and i can bet the cap is a 0.047 F and precharged , essentially a battery . We can see it in the last moment of the film when he show's the battery charging .

LEAVE IT ALONE!

MARK!

J

WONDERFULL !
as i said b4 ... she does get the award! : )
: )

now see i aint gonna muck up this thred any more !

nice to see you back gadget!

so now we gonna build some lights Ã‰ i have many RED TOROIDES VHF from the rf amps ...

small ones ...

bet they work well ..

but right now im about to winde me a 10 turn secondary on my air core coil .. and you if ya has an itrest can read it in my thred ... im gonna do that that then im gonna come back here and duplicate J`S WORK ... ON MY SCOPE! K

PEACE STILL LOVE YOU ALL!

M
.........
W

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on February 01, 2010, 11:10:13 PM

The unmodified output of the cfl driver is 25khz I believe. Ultrasound. I got an oscope and a broken cfl and will power her up and see what waveform the unmodified is. Now if the lightbulb is the R in an rlc. Then the wave damping will take on the form of light and heat. If the resistance of an rlc is decreased so that the landthe c are in the same conducting mass like a Tesla bifilar wound coil and there is some way to inductively couple to the oscillations without damping them then a very small input like a transient spike will become a much lower frequency moderately high sinewave form that lasts a long time. It will never last as long as a dc potential like in a battery but it should be able to induce some changes in the emf potential on various loads.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: mscoffman on February 02, 2010, 03:42:43 PM

An interesting experiment would be a second generation JT
circuit. Start with a 1.5Vdc battery powered JT circuit.
Shine a bunch of leds (maybe ultrabright red leds) onto one
of gadgetmall's solarcell photocells (as reference), with maybe
a aluminum foil reflecting shield, have that power a second
JT circuit. See how many leds you can power using the output
from the solarcell. This is maybe 20% of the input power falling
on the cells. hint: A photocell has V.vs.I curve that differs, to
some extent, from a battery. When you reach the same brightness
you have overunity.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 02, 2010, 04:50:48 PM

Quote from: mscoffman on February 02, 2010, 03:42:43 PM
An interesting experiment would be a second generation JT
circuit. Start with a 1.5Vdc battery powered JT circuit.
Shine a bunch of leds (maybe ultrabright red leds) onto one
of gadgetmall's solarcell photocells (as reference), with maybe
a aluminum foil reflecting shield, have that power a second
JT circuit. See how many leds you can power using the output
from the solarcell. This is maybe 20% of the input power falling
on the cells. hint: A photocell has V.vs.I curve that differs, to
some extent, from a battery. When you reach the same brightness
you have overunity.

:S:MarkSCoffman

you a SMART MAN!

wanna build my sun circle grow lights !

then im gonna spinn em ...

we gonna speed em up a bit !

wanna help !

: )

see now we can grow some food in the desert! in ma little grow box ...

is that magic or what ... now READ IT 10 X 2 LOL

thing run on JT ..

H W GW

DONT ASK WHY!!! he when nuts! lmfao

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 02, 2010, 06:44:08 PM

@all

I made a coil last night , and got 0V AC and 0 V DC , when rectified it reads 0v DC (that is on the pickup coil 8 turns) the basic jt is real powerful.

So i call it the ZERO coil , i just don't have a clue .

The picture is form the coil without the pickup coil .

Second picture is form the coil in action lighting 24 led on the pickup coil.

Plus one red Led on the mini coil at the center .

I have to say i wish i have a scope , i am totally in the dark here .

But it sure works , but how ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 02, 2010, 06:53:58 PM

wow

NOW THAT A NICE COIL!

that thing make you plasma sphere ...

lol

i love it !

but you still on learn !

: )

W

if that thing starts glowen GREEN : ) ITS GONNA TAKE THE LID OFF YA HOUSE !

LOL

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gyulasun on February 02, 2010, 07:01:12 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 02, 2010, 06:44:08 PM
@all

I made a coil last night , and got 0V AC and 0 V DC , when rectified it reads 0v DC (that is on the pickup coil 8 turns) the basic jt is real powerful.

So i call it the ZERO coil , i just don't have a clue .

The picture is form the coil without the pickup coil .

Second picture is form the coil in action lighting 24 led on the pickup coil.

Plus one red Led on the mini coil at the center .

I have to say i wish i have a scope , i am totally in the dark here .

But it sure works , but how ?

@Mk1

Your winding seems all the self inductance cancel but if we consider energy cannot be distroyed principle, EM energy in some form is still present what the pick up coils are able to utilize.
Can you measure the self inductance with an inductance meter, maybe it is only a few microHenry in spite of the long lenght of wire used.

rgds Gyula

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: IotaYodi on February 02, 2010, 07:01:51 PM

Could be scalar waves with all the 45's you have on the coil. You may want to give the exact details on the construction for replication. Great Stuff!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 02, 2010, 07:13:51 PM

since MARK did this : ) im gonna crystalize ... few leds ..

see if it makes a diffrence on the out put ...

mark you need a RADIO active rock!

it then a little bit of history!

: )

W

pic 13 pinch of this pinch of that ! : )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 02, 2010, 08:34:08 PM

IST:

Is that the clear casting stuff like gadget used on some projects? If so, that stuff dries crystal clear and I'll bet you get a great looking light output from that. The light from the sides of the leds will dance all around inside that stuff.

I can't wait to see a photo of this with the light on after it dries.

Excellent idea.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 02, 2010, 08:40:43 PM

thank you

BILL

: )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 02, 2010, 09:41:37 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 02, 2010, 06:44:08 PM
@all

I made a coil last night , and got 0V AC and 0 V DC , when rectified it reads 0v DC (that is on the pickup coil 8 turns) the basic jt is real powerful.

So i call it the ZERO coil , i just don't have a clue .

The picture is form the coil without the pickup coil .

Second picture is form the coil in action lighting 24 led on the pickup coil.

Plus one red Led on the mini coil at the center .

I have to say i wish i have a scope , i am totally in the dark here .

But it sure works , but how ?

Very nice.
I like the no results part especially! ;D

To repeat this, it is wound as pictured, then you twist the end of one to the beginning of the other and connect it like a joule thief.
The fat wire running around the circumference is the pickup/secondary.
What is the little one in the middle.
Is that connected elecrically to something?

Very good work.
Thank you,

jeanna

BTW to the person who wanted MK1 to repeat himself, here is the page where he started to post his pix and explanations.
I just downloaded all those pix to my computer to make it easier on my patience.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg224515#msg224515 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg224515#msg224515)
I hope that helps.
j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 02, 2010, 09:53:16 PM

@ Mk1

Quote from: Mk1 on February 02, 2010, 06:44:08 PM
But it sure works , but how ?

Yeah. It sure seems to. You make such nice looking coils but you get such strange measurements. I suspect it is working at a pretty high frequency. When you rectify it, do you use a cap on the output of the rectifier (between plus and minus out) and do you measure the voltage across the cap with the meter set to DC input?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 02, 2010, 09:59:19 PM

@jeanna

The coil in the middle is only connected to the red led .

The coil in circumference is indeed the pickup coil , the one in the middle (satellite coil ) could in some way be called a pickup coil.

The coil is on a bigger tube , the diameter is slightly bigger then one duct tape roll.

The tube is divided at 36 degree , so to coil X both starting form the outside going in at the bottom of 5 turns 16 layers total 2x80. ( 16 layer pancake )

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 02, 2010, 10:08:44 PM

Quote from: xee2 on February 02, 2010, 09:53:16 PM
@ Mk1
Yeah. It sure seems to. You make such nice looking coils but you get such strange measurements. I suspect it is working at a pretty high frequency. When you rectify it, do you use a cap on the output of the rectifier (between plus and minus out) and do you measure the voltage across the cap with the meter set to DC input?

The bridge was connected right , and the meter was on Dc , the only cap i connected to it was one electrolytic cap 470mf , it started filling it self at 2.5v increments until i got to about 10 volts , then slowed down to about .2 v increments .

I usually see something on my meter really not with this one.

It dose work on the leds but not powerful like the one lighting the bulbs.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 02, 2010, 10:17:06 PM

@ Mk1

So to me it sounds like you are putting out about 10 volts. If you are filling a 470 uF cap in less than a minute then you are putting out a fair amount of current. Have you tried tuning the base resistor yet?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 02, 2010, 10:22:03 PM

Quote from: xee2 on February 02, 2010, 10:17:06 PM
@ Mk1

So to me it sounds like you are putting out about 10 volts. If you are filling a 470 uF cap in less than a minute then you are putting out a fair amount of current. Have you tried tuning the base resistor yet?

I get usable power for 0 ohm to about 1.5 k .

I also redid it and now both winding are parallel and i dose give a reading now and is about 11 volts . And time wise less the 30 sec , not that impressive to me anyway.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 02, 2010, 10:25:50 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 02, 2010, 09:59:19 PM
@jeanna

The coil in the middle is only connected to the red led .

The coil in circumference is indeed the pickup coil , the one in the middle (satellite coil ) could in some way be called a pickup coil.

The coil is on a bigger tube , the diameter is slightly bigger then one duct tape roll.

The tube is divided at 36 degree , so to coil X both starting form the outside going in at the bottom of 5 turns 16 layers total 2x80. ( 16 layer pancake )

Mark

Thanks Mark,
So, the first layer has 2 wires but they follow the path of one another, then the second layer does the same thing with the 2 wires, but in the opposite direction... 16 layers.
Is this right?
It seems I don't understand.

Wow, so the red led is shining from pure radiant? wow wow.

And those white leds. Are they wired to the fat outside secondary pickup? Or are they at the C-E at the normal jtcl

amazing.
And there is no warmth in the wires of the coil?

jeanna

Quotenot that impressive to me anyway.

but it is scalable and no toroid.
A bedini motor is best with over 600 turns.

what is the amps draw?
j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 02, 2010, 11:03:23 PM

Quote from: jeanna on February 02, 2010, 10:25:50 PM
Thanks Mark,
So, the first layer has 2 wires but they follow the path of one another, then the second layer does the same thing with the 2 wires, but in the opposite direction... 16 layers.
Is this right?
It seems I don't understand.

Wow, so the red led is shining from pure radiant? wow wow.

And those white leds. Are they wired to the fat outside secondary pickup? Or are they at the C-E at the normal jtcl

amazing.
And there is no warmth in the wires of the coil?

jeanna
but it is scalable and no toroid.
A bedini motor is best with over 600 turns.

what is the amps draw?
j

There is only 2 wires total , and yes the white led is one the outside pickup coil .

Busted my fuse , sorry about amps reading .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Magluvin on February 02, 2010, 11:22:19 PM

Nice Coils MK. So you are getting what I got back then, no voltage readings but bright led function.
Does it have to be high freq to get the results?

Jeanna Ist if you want a more diffused light from the leds, get a Scotchbrite pad and scuff the lens. 1500 to 2000 grit sand paper works quick also. This will get rid of the beaming but you wont loose any light.

Mags

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 03, 2010, 01:02:45 AM

this song is for my southern freinds!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YWGuwtsskU&NR=1

willy gonna open up the door

CUZ we done knocking!

lol

love everybody .....

peace ...

i wasnt a MC DJ 4 nuttin

GOD BLESS DIXIE LAND!

CAREFULL WITH THE DIXIE DUST!

W

THE LEDS ARE NANO coated now and the work well to diffuse the light ... but i think i need yellow led or blue ones !

but there still nice and bright but much easyer on the eyes .. and if i use the mk coil ... we can add sclar dirrected engery to the food !

make it grow fast !

: )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 03, 2010, 12:54:27 PM

now according to MY SUN ...

we gonna bring the pentigon ... over to the grow house in the desert !

and we gonnna speed things up

here how we gonna do it !

little bit of wood little bit a tin !

5 loa`s and see it look like a star ...

REAL BRIGHT ONE

remember just 1

: )

H

FOR WILL here a little ricky we got a case of smitter mittes ... and we gonna tack care of em !

: )

song of the south !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ch1WYOAUOF4

from the north wind ... hangs out in the the northern sky!

: )

aint no body looking back agin!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 03, 2010, 03:05:27 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 02, 2010, 11:03:23 PM

There is only 2 wires total , and yes the white led is one the outside pickup coil .

Busted my fuse , sorry about amps reading .

Thanks

So, this is over another layer of tape so all we see is one layer at a time?

Can you not use your dmm with a 1 or 10 ohm resistor in series and calculate the amps from the volts?
I would like to know.

thank you for doing this and posting it and thanks for the pix.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 03, 2010, 03:12:54 PM

mark

what do you think of 1 5 star 2 dirrections and 5 crystal coated led lights wireless powered
yikes ... <

i have a picture skylar drew me a while ago ...

never built it yet! says blinking YELLOW .. he says wood and screws .. and i got to thinking a bit of tin!

lol

: )

so i got to talking on the fone to my sun the otherday ... he says ... DAD! you build that yet ...

i had to say no sun ... they still a little slow !

see!

we gonna get on the same page Ã‰

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 03, 2010, 04:42:37 PM

@ All:

I just got a sale e-mail from electronic goldmine...check this out!

2,000 leds (green) for $25.0.

You can find them here:

http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G17409B (http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G17409B)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 03, 2010, 08:57:23 PM

built you all 2 turn jt critter bugg!

check it out !

IST!

looks likle a dubble spark gap and the second one is inside the bulb.....

what ya think! Ã‰

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 03, 2010, 10:33:11 PM

@ist

I will most likely try the 4 pointed star , 3 is life 4 is electricity , 5 is magic .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 04, 2010, 01:24:37 AM

@ crowclaw

Quote from: crowclaw on February 01, 2010, 03:17:57 PM
Hi xee2,
I'll try and capture more A full shots for you when I get a chance. I understand what you want to see. Thanks for your interest. Regards

I think an even more interesting scope shot would be of the voltage across the collector coil on one channel and the voltage across the base coil on the other channel. This would show how the feed back works that turns the transistor on and off.

It might look something like the attached drawing.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 04, 2010, 03:36:04 AM

i like magic .. we gonna fly or grow plants fast !

now

im filling boost caps in real time .. SUPER HIGH SPEED !

like way toooooooooo fast !

gadget .... wanna have a chat ?

got a gift 4 ya !

: )

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on February 04, 2010, 03:18:52 PM

Was in a convenience store today and they were replacing flurescent A in a freezer compartment with leds enclosed in a mechanical enclosure that fits in the same space as flurescents. The leds are what the young man called lazer diodes. These are at the bottome of a reflective cone. The units are manufactured by a company called Sloan .
The highvoltage "spikey" stuff is in the order of 500 volts. I dont have the financial ability to purchase one of these fixtures but Jeanna's research came to mind so I report it here. There are contracts by all major convenience stores to start replacing highpressure sodium and metal halide bulbs which are glorified carbon arc lamps with the diode lamp.
This is a winner all around. Thankyou for keeping it out there guys. The world needs to know.

Modify

Flurescent bulbs have mercury vapor that is heated by accelerated electrons emitted by the filaments. Mercury vapor and food storage just dont belong in the same sentence. This is a wonderful example of applied technologies that has finally filtered down to the end users not sequestered due to paranoid military fools.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on February 04, 2010, 03:33:42 PM

Quote from: xee2 on February 04, 2010, 01:24:37 AM
@ crowclaw

I think an even more interesting scope shot would be of the voltage across the collector coil on one channel and the voltage across the base coil on the other channel. This would show how the feed back works that turns the transistor on and off.

Xee2,
I'll set it up again and post the results for you, have got several projects on the go taking precedence at the moment... Kind Regards

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 04, 2010, 03:38:39 PM

@Sparks,

That is indeed very gratifying as a start.
Thank you for the report.
Sometimes this does seem like a very steep hill we are climbing, and it is comforting to hear about this sort of evidence.

thank you,
jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on February 04, 2010, 03:47:32 PM

Quote from: sparks on February 04, 2010, 03:18:52 PM
Was in a convenience store today and they were replacing flurescent A in a freezer compartment with leds enclosed in a mechanical enclosure that fits in the same space as flurescents. The leds are what the young man called lazer diodes. These are at the bottome of a reflective cone. The units are manufactured by a company called Sloan .
The highvoltage "spikey" stuff is in the order of 500 volts. I dont have the financial ability to purchase one of these fixtures but Jeanna's research came to mind so I report it here. There are contracts by all major convenience stores to start replacing highpressure sodium and metal halide bulbs which are glorified carbon arc lamps with the diode lamp.
This is a winner all around. Thankyou for keeping it out there guys. The world needs to know.

Modify

Flurescent bulbs have mercury vapor that is heated by accelerated electrons emitted by the filaments. Mercury vapor and food storage just dont belong in the same sentence. This is a wonderful example of applied technologies that has finally filtered down to the end users not sequestered due to paranoid military fools.

Looks like this could be the company

http://www.sloanled.com/

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 04, 2010, 03:58:38 PM

@ crowclaw

Quote from: crowclaw on February 04, 2010, 03:33:42 PM
Xee2,
I'll set it up again and post the results for you, have got several projects on the go taking precedence at the moment... Kind Regards

This was only a suggestion that I thought might be helpful to you and others. I do not think it should be something considered important to do.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on February 04, 2010, 05:11:00 PM

Interestingly, on Dragons Den this week a guy had replacement tubes for fluorescent fixtures made up of an array of led's aligned to focus their light on a fixed radius...ideally suited for product display.

I believe this appears to be different from the products offered on the above site.

Four out of the 5 Dragons invested in the lighting system.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on February 04, 2010, 05:55:12 PM

Quote from: xee2 on February 04, 2010, 03:58:38 PM
@ crowclaw

This was only a suggestion that I thought might be helpful to you and others. I do not think it should be something considered important to do.

Xee2
It's no trouble and not a problem. As you have mentioned you have not got the advantage of a scope, It's my pleasure where ever possible (time allowing) to be able to offer my help and advise to benefit others.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 05, 2010, 10:54:21 AM

A word of warning to anyone ordering from Goldmine Electric; they seem to take their time with orders ...

I ordered a huge list of things, but it took them four days to find it all, and next time i'll spring for expedited shipping, that alone is going to take a week - everything seems to stop in Texas ( I wonder why ).

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 03, 2010, 04:42:37 PM
@ All:

I just got a sale e-mail from electronic goldmine...check this out!

2,000 leds (green) for $25.0.

You can find them here:

http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G17409B (http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G17409B)

Bill

The flyer-before-last had some interesting 1M ohm potentiometers that I ordered, it should be interesting to test with that range.

They also purport to being an on-off switch.
- - - -

So, what is preferred, this tin-can style transistor or the plastic ones?

Which ones have greater thermal stability?

- - - -

Has anyone tried my diode-mod? http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg225867#msg225867 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg225867#msg225867)

I was wondering, because I don't have a decent toroid wound at the moment.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: mscoffman on February 05, 2010, 11:53:31 AM

Quote from: sparks on February 04, 2010, 03:18:52 PM

Was in a convenience store today and they were replacing flurescent A in a freezer compartment with leds enclosed in a mechanical enclosure that fits in the same space as flurescents. The leds are what the young man called lazer diodes. These are at the bottome of a reflective cone.

Laser diodes are monochrome photo diodes with all the photon wave
fronts synchronised - leading to lack of normal angular spreading and
much higher effective power. People seem to have a problem with
differentiating this, but public eye safety demands the laser diodes
not be accidentally mixed with any other type of photodiode. There
are the things you can see and the things you can't see but can
still hurt you. In my opinion we as technical people need to make
an effort to have folks get this right before they make a mess.

...Remember; "depleted uranium"?

:S:MarkSCoffman

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 05, 2010, 11:40:03 PM

;D

On sale at Harbor Freight for 2.99!

Looks a bit like a Blocking Oscillator with a villard / crockoff-walton extension.

Transistor looks like a D965.

I dropped a few carbon fibers on it and it gave me quite a light show. :P

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 06, 2010, 12:01:10 AM

Jadaro:

Wow, I always wanted to get one of those, that is a great price! Looks like it runs from 3 volts...not bad at all. This could be our next step up from the Fuji circuit. 1,500 volts is not bad for $3.00.

I need to go to my local HF store, thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on February 06, 2010, 12:08:52 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on February 05, 2010, 11:40:03 PM
;D

On sale at Harbor Freight for 2.99!

Looks a bit like a Blocking Oscillator with a villard / crockoff-walton extension.

Transistor looks like a D965.

I dropped a few carbon fibers on it and it gave me quite a light show. :P

they work great for fluoros. just take out the resistor under the output cap, and the cap. they will run off of a cell phone battery also but i would put some hot glue or epoxy on the bottom of the board, i had some arcing when running mine off 3.7V

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on February 06, 2010, 12:34:56 AM

yea
i had one i burned it up with a 9 volt battery..
but the transformer is still kool to play with..

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 06, 2010, 01:04:32 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on February 05, 2010, 11:40:03 PM
;D

On sale at A for 2.99!

Looks a bit like a Blocking Oscillator with a villard / crockoff-walton extension.

Transistor looks like a D965.

I dropped a few carbon fibers on it and it gave me quite a light show. :P

Thanks for posting this. I could use a few of these to kill some bugs. I found the following item, is this the same thing?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 06, 2010, 01:10:27 AM

Quote from: xee2 on February 06, 2010, 01:04:32 AM
Thanks for posting this. I could use a few of these to kill some bugs. I found the following item, is this the same thing?

Indeed it is.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Foggy-Notion on February 06, 2010, 12:53:31 PM

Are these electric bug swatters using the same Joule Thief Principal?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 06, 2010, 04:05:34 PM

I just got in from work and I stopped by the HF store and picked up 2 of the HV swatters. Let's see, it only took me about 5 minutes after installing the batteries to get zapped!

Warning! The screen holds a residual charge AFTER you release the on button. I am sure I did not get the entire volts this produces but, it was enough to where I won't do it again.

I was thinking of using one of them to make a laser saber using a 48" tube. I am up in the air about it because if I do this and it looks cool, some kid somewhere might try to make one and break the tube playing with it releasing mercury, broken glass, etc. It looks like it would be easy to do however, just about everything is right there.

The other one I am going to make another tube light of some kind yet to be determined. Plenty of volts here to play with.

I am glad this sale was pointed out, I never saw it in the catalog I just received the other day even though it was in there.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on February 06, 2010, 04:50:13 PM

Bill !...I AM YOUR FATHER!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 06, 2010, 05:09:48 PM

I probably go pick another one up myself, they're cheap for doing what they do electronically.

The sighting was a fluke.

I think they work on the same principle, they have a number of capacitors and a number of diodes, so it seems like there's the basic JTC with a Villard or crockoff-walton extension to further boost the voltage.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 07, 2010, 01:23:24 AM

80,000 volt homemade stun gun:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4knqPrp4jQ&feature=grec (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4knqPrp4jQ&feature=grec)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Doug1 on February 07, 2010, 08:08:03 AM

Pirate
If you are still hell bent on making light saber then work out using this stuff.https://electricvinyl.com/shop/our_product_line.php
What is it with you and your obsession with this stupid toy? I think you have OHBeeONE itus.
On the upside at least your not trying to figure out how to jump out of a falling rocket before it impacts the ground to avoid the terminal velocity.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 07, 2010, 11:27:13 AM

light sabers ...

i have a few ... i was playing with... built a quartz unit and a amithist thrustor !

been chargeing caps from a cam flash .. lighting loa's liteing halagon bulbs ... lit a 60watt

but i got this flick it in my head .. like flick it and it keeps doing its job ...

it JUST SO HAPPINS THE CAM BOARDS APEAR TO WOBBLE !

AND I PULLED OUT A MOTOR I WILL USE AS AN OUTWARD pancake spinner !

o the fun!

ist!

i was thinking a crystal diode or a bridge ... from the crazy neon then a cap .. and bang a motor pump!

all this got me to thinking JT LED crystal banger magnetic ringger transmitter ...

you see this dude is sitting on some BIG WHEELS ... in the back yard!

got me thinking tickets at the door !

i think i can rock em and heal em ... lol

just walk through the big old natural healing machine ...

: )

KALI DREAMING COLD WINTERS DAY !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 07, 2010, 03:45:18 PM

Quote from: Doug1 on February 07, 2010, 08:08:03 AM
Pirate
If you are still hell bent on making light saber then work out using this stuff.https://electricvinyl.com/shop/our_product_line.php (https://electricvinyl.com/shop/our_product_line.php)
What is it with you and your obsession with this stupid toy? I think you have OHBeeONE itus.
On the upside at least your not trying to figure out how to jump out of a falling rocket before it impacts the ground to avoid the terminal velocity.

Doug:

I really don't see how saying one time that I was thinking of making one is an obsession?

I have decided instead to just make a light for my living room using a 48" tube.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on February 07, 2010, 04:31:54 PM

i found a picture of doug.. and what do you know he is a trekkie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 07, 2010, 05:02:21 PM

I was recalling a scene from the outtakes and bloopers section at the end of the last dvd re-do of starwars from the old days, where there was a recollection of the ads from kenner for the empty box to be filled later with the promised item.
In this ad blooper the child opens a lightsaber and turns it on and gleefully swings it around chopping his folks into pieces. dark humor...I laugh every time.

j ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 07, 2010, 05:08:25 PM

But I did find an important piece this morning.
This is from Inventions... and is from the part where the author who put Tesla's lectures together is giving an overview of the lectures.
==========
He illustrated
in a series of novel experiments the effect of the gas surrounding the conductor and shows beyond a doubt that with high frequency and high potential currents, the surrounding gas is of paramount importance in the heating of the conductor. He attributes the heating partially to a conduction current and partially to bombardment, and demonstrates that in many cases the
heating may be practically due to the bombardment alone.
==========
So, the surrounding gas and bombardment alone.
The bombardment is I think what a fluorescent tube is demonstrating.
Now, the heat at HVHF.... hmmm there is hope here.

So, kooler,
doug's portrait is ok but,
Are you going to give us a circuit?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on February 07, 2010, 07:16:18 PM

Quote from: jeanna on February 07, 2010, 05:08:25 PM
So, kooler,
doug's portrait is ok but,
Are you going to give us a circuit?

jeanna

its the same old circuit that i used i just wanted to throw more volts to it.. so i saw this ccfl board
and there it is.. it put out alittle over 1kv on 5 volts.. so i gave it 6 volts

http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16565 (http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16565)

it also shows 1600 volts on my scope with 1.5 volts in.. but it wont lite a cfl..

i will get me one of fly swatter thingys again.. 3 volts will get you 1500-2000..
plus there cheaper than the ones goldmine had that time..

i just pulled the caps off the board and run a diode to my cap and triac bunch of neons and to the bulb

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 07, 2010, 07:48:55 PM

http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G13825 (http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G13825)

Ordered this recently, looks like a fuji circuit as it is.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on February 07, 2010, 08:07:04 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on February 07, 2010, 07:48:55 PM
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G13825 (http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G13825)

Ordered this recently, looks like a fuji circuit as it is.

sweet deal i got a couple of those coming..soon.. order stuff 6 days ago and still no order confim yet.. thinking of not buying from them again..

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 07, 2010, 08:18:14 PM

Quote from: kooler on February 07, 2010, 08:07:04 PM
sweet deal i got a couple of those coming..soon.. order stuff 6 days ago and still no order confim yet.. thinking of not buying from them again..

robbie

They seems to be moving slowly lately - it took them 5 days to get all my stuff together.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 07, 2010, 08:53:14 PM

that is why I prefer allelectronics.... packed that day or the next.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on February 08, 2010, 02:16:49 PM

@ xee2,

Scope shot of small toroid JT showing collector and base waveforms ( collector in blue)
Kind regards.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 08, 2010, 02:32:16 PM

@ crowclaw

Thanks. Are these the voltages across the coils? Your scope is great.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 08, 2010, 02:45:32 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on February 07, 2010, 08:18:14 PM
They seems to be moving slowly lately - it took them 5 days to get all my stuff together.

Same thing just happened to me as well. I ordered some basic parts Monday morning and didnt get a confirmation email until Friday night. NOT GOOD BUSINESS!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on February 08, 2010, 03:07:32 PM

Quote from: xee2 on February 08, 2010, 02:32:16 PM
@ crowclaw

Thanks. Are these the voltages across the coils? Your scope is great.

BE and CE
Regards

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on February 08, 2010, 03:36:48 PM

Here is another idea for those who want to experiment with. My JT biffilar wound toroid has an equal number of primary and secondary turns. In this case 22. The collector has a diode output... anode to collector. Now take another diode from the primary feedback winding, cathode connection but this time you are capturing the negative pulses. You now not only have positive spikes but also nice negative ones!! Your output is between the anode of one diode and the cathode of the other almost doubling the output of the circuit!! The output of this configuration can be seen in my attached scope shot. The unloaded output measured between the positive and negative peeks is well over 120v ( X10 probes) Remember this is a floating output only so don't common ground the outputs to the JT common ground. Usual warning applies when working with high voltages... please be careful.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 08, 2010, 03:42:34 PM

Quote from: crowclaw on February 08, 2010, 03:07:32 PM
BE and CE
Regards

Yes, what kind of scope output to PC like this?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 08, 2010, 03:47:18 PM

here i thought i was the only NUTZ one lol ...

hehe

ok

like to report the SMITTERMITTE LIGHTS! WORK GREAT!

burn em out over night !

some one need high teck nano quartz coated ORGANIC pest control GROTH ENHANCEMENT devices ??

i have a few diffrent ones to choose from ...

: )

W

here is a good question for you to ask

because im shooting saclar vortexes down ward from above will that add to the BIG WHEELS IN THE BACK YARD AND REINFORCE IT ?

hummm

im gonna call the last unit GROW RING SKYL;AR THINGIES! ...

: )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on February 08, 2010, 04:12:38 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on February 08, 2010, 03:42:34 PM
Yes, what kind of scope output to PC like this?

It's a module which works through a PC and combines the functions of a scope/spectrum analyser/ multimeter etc.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 08, 2010, 08:46:11 PM

guess you dont want to see the STORM TROOPER gun then eh

mom ?

ist!

H

i got bored so i threw up the concept modle !

carefull with that one !!!!!!

that a scary toy !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on February 08, 2010, 10:23:14 PM

Quote from: jeanna on February 07, 2010, 05:08:25 PM
But I did find an important piece this morning.
This is from Inventions... and is from the part where the author who put Tesla's lectures together is giving an overview of the lectures.
==========
He illustrated
in a series of novel experiments the effect of the gas surrounding the conductor and shows beyond a doubt that with high frequency and high potential currents, the surrounding gas is of paramount importance in the heating of the conductor. He attributes the heating partially to a conduction current and partially to bombardment, and demonstrates that in many cases the
heating may be practically due to the bombardment alone.
==========
So, the surrounding gas and bombardment alone.
The bombardment is I think what a fluorescent tube is demonstrating.
Now, the heat at HVHF.... hmmm there is hope here.

So, kooler,
doug's portrait is ok but,
Are you going to give us a circuit?

jeanna

Conversion of heat to electrical energy may be as simple as introducing a magnetic field within a partially ionized gas mixture. The ionized gas will be pinned down into orbiting the magnetic field lines permeating the ionized gas neutral gas mixture . The electrically and magnetically neutral atoms will not be effected by the magnetic field. Any accelerated neutral atoms will transfer their kinetic energy via friction to the "pinned down" ions. The neutral atoms will be cooled while the ionized atoms will experience an increase in their orbital velocity about the magnetic field lines. Upon return of the magnetic field to ambient conditions the electrostatic repulsion of the ions causes an explosion or rapid expansion of the ionized gas field.
The energy stored in the ion cyclotron frequency and put there by the neutral atom's friction is manifested as a rapid expansion of a gas. In this case the gas is charged. As the explosion wave front reaches various conductors these conductors are bombarded with positive charge carriers. Various electrical currents can be driven by this bombardment.

In old Television sets you will see a spring wrapped around the edges of the picture tube. It is impossible to create a perfect vacuum so any remaining gasses in the evacuated tube are ionized by the high potential between the anode and cathode. The spring is chargedup and maintained at a very high potential to act as an ion trap. If these ions were not sequestered the rapid deterioation of the flurescent coatings lining the inside of the picture tube would insue due to ion bombardment. ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 08, 2010, 10:27:34 PM

OH,

I read it the other way.
I understood that the electrical bombardment was heating up the gas.
Actually, I kind of still think that is what he meant.

(This has been a day of shifted thoughts so lets add them all together...why not?)

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on February 08, 2010, 11:09:46 PM

@J

Astronomer's have been studying space dust. This is like a quazi solid plasma form of matter and there is a lot of it throughout the observable Universe. The thermal dynamics within this space dust gives rise to this space dust. I think the bigbang (massive blackhole explosion) is still banging with its wave front way out their somewhere meanwhile we are left inside the sphere and dealing with cooling issues forming matter of all sorts of different form. Form we are yet to see because we have been blinded by the light for far too long.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on February 09, 2010, 04:17:08 PM

Hi All,
If any one is interested? this is the schematic I meant to post with my scope shot of the double diode JT circuit ( see 827 1204) make sure if charging caps you observe correct polarity!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: ÐŸÐ’Ð on February 09, 2010, 04:39:08 PM

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gyulasun on February 09, 2010, 05:57:45 PM

His Russian text

Ð"Ð¾Ð±Ñ€Ñ‹Ð¹ Ð´ÐµÐ½ÑŒ Ð²ÑÐµÐ¼!ÐœÐµÐ½Ñ Ð¸Ð½Ñ,ÐµÑ€ÐµÑÑƒÐµÑ, Ð¢Ð¾Ñ€Ð¸Ð¾Ð´Ð°Ð»ÑŒÐ½Ñ‹Ð¹ Ñ,Ñ€Ð°Ð½ÑÑ,,Ð¾Ñ€Ð¼Ð°Ñ,Ð¾Ñ€ Ñ Ñ€Ð°Ð´Ð¸Ð°Ð»ÑŒÐ½Ð¾Ð¹ Ð½Ð°Ð¼Ð¾Ñ,ÐºÐ¾Ð¹.ÐšÐ°ÐºÐ¸Ðµ Ñƒ Ð½ÐµÐ³Ð¾ ÐŸÑ€Ð°ÐºÑ,Ð¸Ñ‡ÐµÑÐºÐ¸Ðµ Ð¿Ð°Ñ€Ð°Ð¼ÐµÑ,Ñ€Ñ‹,Ð¿Ð¾ Ð¼Ð¾Ñ‰Ð½Ð¾ÑÑ,Ð¸ ,Ð¸ Ð¿Ð¾Ñ,ÐµÑ€Ð¸.

in English is

Good afternoon all! I am interested in toroidal transformer with radial winding. What are the practical parameters on power and losses.

I used this link for translation: http://translation2.paralink.com/Russian-English-Translation/ It works both direction.

rgds, Gyula

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 09, 2010, 07:49:54 PM

@ crowclaw

Quote from: crowclaw on February 09, 2010, 04:17:08 PM
( see 827 1204)

What is this? How much improvement did you see with second diode?

Nice drawing. I like the lightning bolt.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 09, 2010, 07:54:22 PM

@ gyulasun

Power limited by ferrite saturation. Search for "ferrite saturation" on Russian sites. There should be something there.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sirmikey1 on February 09, 2010, 08:09:02 PM

xee3,
That's the page and post number where he posted scopeshots. Sitting here, it looks like splitting or feeding the output back to L1 neg would cause spikes, like an ignition coil? Pardon my green, but....
Mikey

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sirmikey1 on February 09, 2010, 08:40:51 PM

delete double post

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 09, 2010, 08:51:13 PM

@ sirmikey1

Thanks.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on February 09, 2010, 09:32:58 PM

Quote from: xee2 on January 30, 2010, 12:38:18 PM
@ ist
What is missing?

With respect to IST no-battery motor 4.jpg in Reply #12285...

What's missing?
A connection for the copper wires on the rotor? What's the function of the coil turns?
Some means to regulate rotor speed to resonance?
A charge battery(by itself) for collection of power generated and having a diode/capacitor rectifier/filter?

REEDIT:
Reply #12296 has a much better setup.

--Lee

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 09, 2010, 10:20:02 PM

Just got some parts in - I should post some test by Friday; I'm rather busy lately.

I got a Toko-coil; it came with this diagram, it looks similar to a JTC, so I'll post it; hopefully Goldmine won't mind, it's branded with their logo. *note: The coil is covering the upper lead, which is isolated, #6 terminal connects to the lowere lead of the FLO display.

Also, there are Hundreds of these little inductors which should make for good compact designs if I wind another coil around it - I should be able to cram a JTC inside a pre-existing flashlight bulb socket easily!

The toko coil ( grey ) is about the same diameter as a dime ( us ).

I also got a bunch of mosfets and I'll try those out as well, this should be interesting to take current readings.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 10, 2010, 03:32:07 AM

looks like those some powerful grow bulbs!

thats no joke ...

what is all flying off those crystals ?

clearly useing 60hz ... the crystals GLOW! and apparently they throw a sun burn!

: )

so im thinking of throwing a tin hat on it and faceing them up ward insted of down ..

it gets nutz when YOU ASK WHY! ...

im still recovering ..... : ) and aint got it all figured out yet!

im useing NANO quartz .. that means i got millions of lazers flying out of that ...

and i was just about to do the quartz pulser flash burner ..

yikes!

W

then the other day i dream of the amithyist plasma carbon thrustor style unit ! insted of the halagon quartz bulb ..,.

was thinking i can use the plasma flash to glow the quartz ...

this gets nutz and is for NUT!

lol

cuz i know my ali coil spits plasma and a carbon gap will spitt x ray .. and who knows what all else ...

this thing is getting nutz now !

you can do the same thing useing a J COIL

if this is such the case ...

i just built this world the most powerfull grow bulbs for free!

: )

and now it will runn on a aa a week or more ...

im doing the RED GREEN AND BLUE SUPER BRIGHTS ... 3 colour .. 3 jt ... in 1 light!

TONIGHT!

: )

ok you GUYS ARE GONNA FREQ OUT !

I FOUND THE PERFECT UNIT ... I CAN ROTATE RED GREEN AND BLUE SLOWLY choose from what ever combo i like ... all i got to do is dip the leds ... and drop the lenz on it !

: )

now that is the MAGIC IN LIFE !

ill even add the fiber strands to it ... lmfao!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 10, 2010, 05:30:46 AM

am i gonna go grab that quartz ball and my horns ?

lol

APPLE BOTTOM JEANS BOOTS WITH THE FUR!

: )

reason i gave her that rock ....

!

momma got cancer!

hummmmm!

ist!

grow light pics

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 10, 2010, 08:47:33 AM

This is like a joule thief circuit with only one end of the trigger coil back to the transistor base.
The other free end of the trigger coil is were the HV comes out.

Here is a video of it running off a cell phone charger using one AA battery.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_hQvKxezJE

And here is the circuit I'm using.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 10, 2010, 02:19:52 PM

@slayer

Fantastic vid as usual. I have a question though, does your A board have doides (AV plug)?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 10, 2010, 02:42:51 PM

No in the video there is no AV plug on the Bread board.The AV plug is on the led board.
I just showed it in the circuit so other people would know how the AV plug would go.

Right now I'm trying differant coil setups.And it seems to work great with more than one L1 coil inside each other.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 10, 2010, 04:42:41 PM

Here is another short video just trying differant coil setups.
In the video I have another coil inside the bigger coil thats also going to the transistors base.(I would like to add one more)
I'm also using two transistors in parallel an 2n2222 and a MPSA06.
I also shrunk the L2 coil down a little so its more focused on the L1 coil.
At the begining of the video it's only using one AA battery then I add one more for two AA batteries.
It can also be more adjusted by moving the second L1 coil in and out of the big one.

Something else to try is a 10 k pot instead of the 1 k resistor for finer tuning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhq4cRHwcrA

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 10, 2010, 05:27:45 PM

WOW very cool...I ordered some stuff last week that will be in on Monday to test out this circuit> I cant waite. So you have replaced the trigger coil for a stiffler tower coil that has an extra coil on the inside. are you getting anything off the AL foil in the left side of the video? This circuit seems to make anything metal a receiver ie the outside of the batteries! What was the MA draw? and di it change when adding loads?

nice work ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 10, 2010, 06:52:58 PM

Quote from: stprue on February 10, 2010, 05:27:45 PM
WOW very cool...I ordered some stuff last week that will be in on Monday to test out this circuit> I cant waite. So you have replaced the trigger coil for a stiffler tower coil that has an extra coil on the inside. are you getting anything off the AL foil in the left side of the video? This circuit seems to make anything metal a receiver ie the outside of the batteries! What was the MA draw? and di it change when adding loads?

nice work ;D

In the last video I wasn't using the Alu foil on the transistor base.
But it will light off anything conductive like metal or water if it's in the fields range.
The current it was using with one battery was around 36 mA I havent checked it yet when using two batteries.
The batteries in the meter were starting to die so I didn't show it in the video.
But the current draw didn't really change after load with the one battery.
I still have one coil to make and I'll get a new set of atteries and show the current draw in the next video.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 10, 2010, 07:31:02 PM

@slayer

Nice video , great work as usual , two things come to my mind , first it really look like a tesla coil, and second the base plate (connected to the transistor base) and the emitter coil coil action makes me thinks of tubes.

I was thinking about my latest tube jt , i may try to place a piece of aluminum , connected to the base of my transistor , and use my tube coil to generate a field over it , so the aluminum act like one anode the tube coil exciter then like in a magnetron antenna to (cathode ).

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 10, 2010, 07:33:39 PM

@all

I just managed to buy some new bulbs , they are 2v 49 size bulb(they seem to be used in the auto industry ), i will try then on the secondary later on , i will make a video soon lighting them and also running a motor .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 10, 2010, 07:51:30 PM

MK1:

Looking forward to seeing your video.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 10, 2010, 08:24:36 PM

@ slayer007

I suggest you try this circuit (but I make no promises).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 10, 2010, 08:26:15 PM

deleted by xee2 - double post

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 10, 2010, 10:06:33 PM

Quote from: xee2 on February 10, 2010, 08:26:15 PM
deleted by xee2 - double post

Is there actually a capacitor there are is this just representational?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 10, 2010, 10:39:34 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on February 10, 2010, 10:06:33 PM
Is there actually a A there are is this just representational?

There is no physical capacitor, but there is actual capacitance. It is between the wires in the coil. That and the capacitance between the metal plates creates the parallel capacitance that the inductor resonates with. About 1 pF total should make coil resonate at a few MHz.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 10, 2010, 11:51:15 PM

@xee2,
I keep failing to find the information.
I can get close.
Maybe you can help.

How many coulombs or is it joules are in that 1pF that is resonating at 1Mhz?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 11, 2010, 12:40:40 AM

Quote from: jeanna on February 10, 2010, 11:51:15 PM
@xee2,
I keep failing to find the information.
I can get close.
Maybe you can help.

How many coulombs or is it joules are in that 1pF that is resonating at 1Mhz?

thank you,

jeanna

One Coulomb is an amount of charge (electrons), you can look up how many.
One amp = one Coulomb of charge moving through a cross section of a wire per second
or the Coulomb is another way of saying the number of electrons flowing in a wire.
Measure the amps and that is the number of Coulombs moving through the wire per second.

I hope that helps.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 11, 2010, 12:58:27 AM

Quote from: xee2 on February 11, 2010, 12:40:40 AM
One Coulomb is an amount of charge (electrons), you can look up how many.
One amp = one Coulomb of charge moving through a cross section of a wire per second
or the Coulomb is another way of saying the number of electrons flowing in a wire.
Measure the amps and that is the number of Coulombs moving through the wire per second.

I hope that helps.

Thanks xee2,
It is close, but there is one more part I know gets fit in there but I cannot work the connecting link.
The farad
the pF
how many coulombs will be in the theoretically full 1pF cap?
or 1F for that matter?

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on February 11, 2010, 01:19:06 AM

the wiki explains it pretty well.

"A farad is the charge in coulombs a capacitor will accept for the potential across it to change 1 volt. A coulomb is 1 ampere second. Example: A 47 mA current causes the voltage across a capacitor to increase 1 volt per second. It therefore has a capacitance of 47 mF."

1F=1C/1V

Quote from: jeanna on February 11, 2010, 12:58:27 AM
how many coulombs will be in the theoretically full 1pF cap?
or 1F for that matter?

thanks,

jeanna

if your theoretical cap is a 1V/1F and is theoretically full, it should theoretically contain 1C. if the cap was 1V/1pF it should theoretically contain 1pC... theoretically of course. personally i dislike it. it gives the impression that electrons are discrete particles...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sirmikey1 on February 11, 2010, 03:17:22 AM

Crowclaw,
I'm trying to duplicate your double diode JT (attached). Saw the scope shots, seemed doubled-up and without spikes. Can you please enlighten me as to the advantages or purpose of your JT mod? I added the diodes and am seeing 12.3v there, very clean clear measurement for a change; and kept plowing under load. I don't yet have the added wire with the two resistors in place; or bypassed; as r2-r3 optional leaves me confused, circuit either shorted or with an extra wire. Please pardon my green here, peculiar for me too, just curious as to what you've got there.
Thanks in Advance,
Mikey

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 11, 2010, 07:50:54 AM

Quote from: xee2 on February 10, 2010, 08:24:36 PM
@ slayer007

I suggest you try this circuit (but I make no promises).

Hello Xee2
I have tried the ciruit your showing but without the 500k resistor.
I was using a 1k resistor but I will try it with a 500 k also.
Also once this is started you can remove the resistor and it will keep running.
It works great with the mass on the tower.
The mass will resonate with the coil extending the field around it.
Like Dr Stiffler says whats mass got to do with it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 11, 2010, 08:05:01 AM

@ slayer

I noticed another cool thing in regards to the field put out! With an AV plug you can move it far enought away so that the LED goes out but if you put it near the wall socket you can sometimes see it dimly lit.

How are you building you towers? Single wind? What guage?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 11, 2010, 08:13:47 AM

Quote from: stprue on February 11, 2010, 08:05:01 AM
@ A

I noticed another cool thing in regards to the field put out! With an AV plug you can move it far enought away so that the LED goes out but if you put it near the wall socket you can sometimes see it dimly lit.

How are you building you towers? Single wind? What guage?

They are a single wind 23ga.
The L2 coil was loosely wound around the L1 coil 16 turns then taken off and bunched togeather and taped.
So it's more focused on a certain spot on the L1 coil.

Lidmotor also made a replication of the circuit.
Here is the video by Lidmotor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1BEzNpDgQY

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 11, 2010, 08:24:40 AM

I haven't seen that video before! I'll have to watch it later tonight on a computer with sound.

Thanks for the infos!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 11, 2010, 08:40:19 AM

@ slayer007

Quote from: slayer007 on February 11, 2010, 07:50:54 AM
Like Dr Stiffler says whats mass got to do with it.

It is not the mass, it is the conductive surface area (makes a capacitive plate). The suggestion was to put a plate on each end of the coil. I think this will expand the field generated.

I like your circuit. I think it is the best I have seen so far. Thanks for sharing it.

EDIT: I am sorry that I did not make the point of the suggestion more clear originally.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 11, 2010, 03:13:35 PM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on February 11, 2010, 01:19:06 AM

1F=1C/1V
if your theoretical cap is a 1V/1F and is theoretically full, it should theoretically contain 1C. if the cap was 1V/1pF it should theoretically contain 1pC...

theoretically of course. personally i dislike it. it gives the impression that electrons are discrete particles...

Thanks wilby.
AND...
That final example helps a lot.
a 'full' = 3 to 5 time constants, cap of 1V1pF can dump 1pC.

I do realize we are not dealing with things here, even rates of things moving, but if they can at least be equivalent non-things I think I can go from here.

So, thanks for telling something you dislike.
I believe this will get me to where I want to go.

If not, I will ask another q! ;)

jeanna

@slayer007,
I am glad you posted this circuit here.
I did make one, but I do want people to realize that those phone chargers convert the 1.2v up to close to 5v, so, while it is 1 battery, it is really one 5 or 6 v battery.

Did you ever do a rundown time on that charger?
According to the ads, it only works for 2 hours, and I would expect a jt made from it to run down in that time.
It is great, just not apples and apples so very hard to compare results.
(unless you can run an eb through it and get it to run forever!)
j

edit
to clarify
I made jonnydavro's circuit not this one slayer007 just posted!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 11, 2010, 03:40:38 PM

@ Jeanna

You are correct, the phone charger is a simple transformer that bumps 1.5v to 5.5v...ish and the light on the transformer usually indicates current. There are other videos that show similar set-ups using 1.2v rechargeable but the booster is nice. This set up is good at low voltage wireless and has lots of potential!

Have fun experimenting...Stew 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on February 11, 2010, 03:56:18 PM

@sirmikey1,

Hi, I initially used the circuit as shown to charge up a high voltage capacitor to approx 140 volts for use in another project design. My experimental JT has a bif wound primary & secondary of an equal number of turns (in this case 22 ) so with the additional diode connected to the primary I could now make use of the negative going spikes. If you look at my scope shots channel A and channel B are of equal amplitude but A = +ve spikes and B = -ve spikes. The sum total of the combined outputs therefore is twice that of just one single output. So I was able to charge my capacitor to twice the output voltage I would normally be able to do by using a single diode off of the collector. The resistors are purely for loading while testing and measurement purposes only. Note the outputs are symmetrical only if the number of primary turns equal the number of secondary turns. The type of diodes can make a difference to the results especially at very high frequencies as some standard silicon diodes are not fast enough. Depending on individual circuit configurations; this circuit can be tried out for lighting modified CF L's / charging caps etc. BTW the outputs are + and - spikes and digital meters don't like them!! use decoupling HV capacitors at the outputs to smooth out the DC. Hope this proves useful Regards.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 11, 2010, 04:12:28 PM

Quote from: stprue on February 11, 2010, 03:40:38 PM
@ Jeanna

You are correct, the phone charger is a simple transformer that bumps 1.5v to 5.5v...ish and the light on the transformer usually indicates current. There are other videos that show similar set-ups using 1.2v rechargeable but the booster is nice. This set up is good at low voltage wireless and has lots of potential!

Have fun experimenting...Stew 8)

So stew,
The battery run time? Did you test it?
Is it only 2 hours?

I made jonny's version of this and got the av plug to show a weak response, but the oscillations only lasted a few moments, which was long enough to show that it works, but also to show that 1.2v is a little too weak, and as lidmotor said, it really works with the 5.5v charger.

Thank you for the confirmation,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 11, 2010, 04:12:36 PM

@slayer

Check out this one!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhqML81VO_M&feature=channel

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 11, 2010, 04:22:32 PM

@all

I still have not build a AV plug , to tell the truth i have no clue where to start.

Any recommendation would be great , i want to try it on the tube .

Diodes to used ?

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 11, 2010, 04:28:57 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 11, 2010, 04:22:32 PM
@all

I still have not build a AV plug , to tell the truth i have no clue where to start.

Any recommendation would be great , i want to try it on the tube .

Diodes to used ?

Mark

jonnydavro showed the circuit plus the av plug:

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=jonnydavro#p/u/2/UXI7B0j0Ajc (http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=jonnydavro#p/u/2/UXI7B0j0Ajc)

At minute 1.32 he goes into the detail of how to make the av plug which is his 'detector'

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on February 11, 2010, 05:00:21 PM

i was googleing and couldnt find an answer so i thought maybe somone here would know. if you know your circuit needs a 1h inductor how do you measure that? some of the circuits online will show you needing a 10uh or 1h inductor which is a 1 wire transformer essentially but if you make it at home how do you measure?

by the way i found this the other night. tesla developed the joule thief in a more complex manner but never the less patented it. its a rather interesting circuit. notice he has one wire linked to the main circuit to his florescent, i recalled the florescent needing a "touch" to activate sometimes. they actually had this battery powered off of a small laptop looking battery pack.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 11, 2010, 05:35:29 PM

Quote from: stprue on February 11, 2010, 04:12:36 PM
@slayer

Check out this one!

http://www.A.com/watch?v=nhqML81VO_M&feature=channel

Stprue I have been following Dr Stiffler's work for quite awhile.
His exiter circuits are really amazing.
I have made a few videos of exiters I made using his circuit.
I even made a couple videos using a JT to run his SEC exiter.
I would highly recommend replicating his sec 15 circuit.
It can be made in no time for under $5 in parts.

But I just wanted a circuit I could call my own lol.

@Xee2 I tried as you said with the plates.
It's just like you said it does extend the field range.
But I couldn't get the lights as bright using the plates.
But I havent given up yet on it.
Adding the extra coils inside each other does make the lights a light brighter and the current draw only goes up around 2mA per coil.
I'd like to make around four coils inside each other then use the plates when I'm done.

Thank you.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sirmikey1 on February 11, 2010, 06:09:29 PM

@crowclaw,

Many thanks for clarifications; utilizes more of the available energy, and now clear to me regarding the load. Diode considerations also noted.

Me, I'm basically just waiting around for some developments with the JT; "heat and light" from the JT w/secondary thread. Kooler's circuit is right there, with more to capture. Gadget's circuit is just amazing. I spent like 6 hours yesterday going through that, the hairpin thread, and others.

Many thanks; and best regards,
Mikey

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 11, 2010, 06:37:04 PM

Quote from: jeanna link=topic=6123.msg227732#msg227732 A=1265922748
So stew,
The battery run time? Did you test it?
Is it only 2 hours?

I made jonny's version of this and got the av plug to show a weak response, but the oscillations only lasted a few moments, which was long enough to show that it works, but also to show that 1.2v is a little too weak, and as lidmotor said, it really works with the 5.5v charger.

Thank you for the confirmation,

jeanna

hello Jeanna, I have not done a duration test on the battery as I do not have all the components yet but I will take your word that the battery lasts 2 hrs! but coherence energy does have effects that you may be able to use to re change your source. NOT OU....just efficiencies! I'm not sure what you mean by a weak response on your AV plug??? At this point I have tested the circuit with a cclf driver...some as koolers! and I can get a decent response with it! a crap efficiency circuit. i will post my tests when I get the proper components!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 11, 2010, 06:57:00 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 11, 2010, 04:22:32 PM
@all

I still have not build a AV plug , to tell the truth i have no clue where to start.

Any recommendation would be great , i want to try it on the tube .

Diodes to used ?

I use logic doides.. the little orange and black stripe diodes! 2 diodes comming from each side of an LED and then twist the ends of the diodes together! very easy!!! ;D

Take a look at this!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXI7B0j0Ajc&feature=related

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 11, 2010, 07:01:14 PM

I would expect you to be interested in this and be able to advance!!!

think about adding your AG coild to this set up!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 11, 2010, 07:05:34 PM

Quote from: slayer007 link=topic=6123.msg227752#msg227752 A=1265927729
Stprue I have been following Dr Stiffler's work for quite awhile.
His exiter circuits are really amazing.
I have made a few videos of exiters I made using his circuit.
I even made a couple videos using a JT to run his SEC exiter.
I would highly recommend replicating his sec 15 circuit.
It can be made in no time for under $5 in parts.

But I just wanted a circuit I could call my own lol.

@Xee2 I tried as you said with the plates.
It's just like you said it does extend the field range.
But I couldn't get the lights as bright using the plates.
But I havent given up yet on it.
Adding the extra coils inside each other does make the lights a light brighter and the current draw only goes up around 2mA per coil.
I'd like to make around four coils inside each other then use the plates when I'm done.

Thank you.

Info received slayer! Thank you

xee I bet you have the conponents to test this circuit! ....... You should!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 11, 2010, 08:28:50 PM

I got a electronic flyswatter board. It only has one transistor. The circuit looks like a JT with a voltage doubler. Someone said there were two transistors, so maybe there is more than one version of this board. Mine also has some empty spaces on the PC board.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 11, 2010, 08:34:38 PM

Quote from: xee2 on February 11, 2010, 08:28:50 PM
I got a electronic flyswatter board. It only has one transistor. The circuit looks like a JT with a voltage doubler. Someone said there were two transistors, so maybe there is more than one version of this board. Mine also has some empty spaces on the PC board.

XEE2:

That is the boards I have from the 2 I purchased. They exactly match. I was going to do a photo but, now I don't have to.

Wilby said to remove the cap and the resistor under the cap. I am not sure why we should do this. If it puts out 1,500 volts to the screen the way it is, then why should we change it?

Unless, like the legendary Fuji circuit, a few changes actually make it run like a JT?

I have not had the time to experiment with this board so, let me know what you discover. As I said, I have 2 of them. What a deal for like $6.00.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sirmikey1 on February 11, 2010, 09:42:49 PM

Avramenko AV Plug Pic attached, fairly easy to figure/adapt. Wireless or one wire, and just depends on signal strength.
Mikey

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 11, 2010, 10:11:22 PM

@ sirmikey1

Nice photo.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 11, 2010, 10:12:37 PM

Electronic flyswatter board connections.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 12, 2010, 12:11:31 AM

Quote from: sirmikey1 on February 11, 2010, 09:42:49 PM
Avramenko AV Plug Pic attached, fairly easy to figure/adapt. Wireless or one wire, and just depends on signal strength.
Mikey

Cool, it is interesting though, you may be able to put two diodes in parallel with reversed polarity and have both light up?

The fly-swater board in interesting, I picked up a couple more the other day - I"m going to wait until this weekend to mess with them; there's much stuff to be sorted here at the house ( new equipment and what not ).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 12, 2010, 02:14:00 AM

The flyswatter board seems to put out more power than the Fuji camera board. It is close to the power of a JT with 3.38" toroid (but much smaller). However, I suspect it is not as efficient. Here is a video of sparks using kooler's circuit with 6 neons driving an ignition coil powered by 1.5 volt battery.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vwPmFez60Q

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on February 12, 2010, 02:21:36 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 11, 2010, 08:34:38 PM
Wilby said to remove the cap and the resistor under the cap. I am not sure why we should do this. If it puts out 1,500 volts to the screen the way it is, then why should we change it?

Bill

just so it doesn't bite, as you found out. ;) the large output cap stores a burst to fry the bugs, you really don't need it to light a fluoro. it will still put out 1500V without the cap.

@xee
the empty connections on the board marked K1, K2 are for a switch. i have 2 versions, one has a switch and the led is on the topside of board vs. the bottom and one is identical to yours.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on February 12, 2010, 02:29:49 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 11, 2010, 08:34:38 PM
XEE2:

That is the boards I have from the 2 I purchased. They exactly match. I was going to do a photo but, now I don't have to.

Wilby said to remove the cap and the resistor under the cap. I am not sure why we should do this. If it puts out 1,500 volts to the screen the way it is, then why should we change it?

Unless, like the legendary Fuji circuit, a few changes actually make it run like a JT?

I have not had the time to experiment with this board so, let me know what you discover. As I said, I have 2 of them. What a deal for like $6.00.

Bill

Hi Bill,

Before anyone removes parts!! I noticed what appears to be a 10M resistor on the extreme left side of the board either near to or underside of the brown cap. This resistor is most likely connected to one of the swatter outputs; if this is the case it's there to further restrict the output current should the device be exposed to human touch!!! SO BE VERY CAREFUL. Those things can pack quite a punch. The design is virtually the same as a JT using a coil with feedback, and most probably has addition caps and diodes to double the output.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: oscar on February 12, 2010, 02:38:19 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 11, 2010, 04:22:32 PM
.... AV plug , ....

Diodes to used ?

Mk1,
yes, sirmikey1 posted a great photo of an Avramenko plug.
But I want to urgently suggest that you use diode type 1N4148
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1n4148
I think you will find that these diodes lead to very good results at the frequencies and power levels which 'we' work with, due to their capability of fast switching.
You may also want to try to put three diodes in series on each branch, as Dr. Stiffler does for certain applications.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 12, 2010, 02:40:37 AM

@ WilbyInebriated

My test was with the unmodified board. But when I tried to light a fluorescent tube with the unmodified board the tube would blink because it would discharge the cap each time it lit and then the cap would have to recharge. It should light the tube fine with the cap and resistor removed as you suggested.

EDIT: by any chance, did you happen to measure the capacitance of the capacitor. I do not want to remove mine because I plan on using it in a circuit that needs the cap.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on February 12, 2010, 02:44:58 AM

Quote from: crowclaw on February 12, 2010, 02:29:49 AM
Hi Bill,

Before anyone removes parts!! I noticed what appears to be a 10M resistor on the extreme left side of the board either near to or underside of the brown cap. This resistor is most likely connected to one of the swatter outputs; if this is the case it's there to further restrict the output current should the device be exposed to human touch!!! SO BE VERY CAREFUL. Those things can pack quite a punch. The design is virtually the same as a JT using a coil with feedback, and most probably has addition caps and diodes to double the output.

yup, if you remove the 10M but not that cap, and then charge the cap and touch it, it will bite you harder. i tested this some time back when goat? first mentioned these boards.

it's not as bad as licking a plasma globe though... :D

@xee,
iirc, it was a 0.33uF 600 some volts. i have it somewhere, if you want me to make sure, i can find it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sirmikey1 on February 12, 2010, 02:51:08 AM

Oscar,
Thank for the heads-up on Av Plug Diode type. Modified the photo.
Mikey

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 12, 2010, 02:59:25 AM

@ WilbyInebriated

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on February 12, 2010, 02:44:58 AM
it's not as bad as licking a plasma globe though... :D

Thanks for that valuable information. I will be sure NOT to try that.

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on February 12, 2010, 02:44:58 AM
iirc, it was a 0.33uF 600 some volts. i have it somewhere, if you want me to make sure, i can find it.

Thanks for the info. I do not think it is worth looking for it. I am surprised that it is only 600 volts when the circuit is putting out 1500 volts. Seems like the makers did not care if it worked very long. Maybe that is why they are only $2.99.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on February 12, 2010, 04:00:28 AM

i agree, it does seem a bit low...

i found it xee, 0.33uF and 630V.
it reads like this:
logo CBB21
334J 630V

i can't make out the manufacturers logo, sorry.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 12, 2010, 07:25:15 AM

@all,

Joule Thief driving a BIGGGG gell cell array in series.

This morning I was helping a OU member out with something and I ended up doing something else entirely, which turned out to be a real surprise in itself.

I was foolin around with an old Joule Thief I had made called a Hazens JT, this thing puts out about 630volts, the key to it is the 80 turns one way then 80 turns back the way, you wound from, and the 2 diode and 2 cap arrangement.

It is powered by a 1.2volt D cell NiCad, I decided to give it a spin and hooked up a neon to the output. This thing is savage, it has a vicious spark when shorted, and it bites pokeing fingers hard.

I turned it on, the neon glowed very brightly, good oh I thought, the 2n3055 got hot, the toroid got hot also, then before I knew it, the green LED went out and I thought the 2N3055 had karked it.

I raided the fridge, and made myself a nice lime and bitters cordial, came back later, turned on the switch, and lo and behold, its working again.
I took out the neon, and had a think.

Heat in semis could mean 2 things, either the semi is tost, or there is grunt avaliable, so I hauled a few 12v gelcells (24v) batteries onto the table and I hooked it up to the JT's output in series with a 3 amp fast recovery diode in circuit.

Switched it on the JT, and after a minute the tranie is geting hot again, turn it off for a while, get a couple more 12v gellcells batteries and hook em up in series with the others, now its got 48 volts to play with, I then hook up my adjustable power supply to the 1.2v Nicad cell and trickle charge it at the same time, saves recharging the D cell and the experiment is ongoing.

Turn the JT on and it's still working.
The temp is a little lower on the JT tranie, I go and get a few more gell cells, connect them in series with the other lot, and eventually, I have 15 gell cells of different sizes, making up a pritty big 180 volt series DC battery. Well I'm game, its only electrons.
By now my neon lights up just on DC itself without the JT running.

By the way, when making a big series DC battery, you need to be careful, set it up from either end so the final connections are in the center of the batteries, this means you are fiddling with half the voltage, not all of it at the output ends. I have a fuse setup in the middle also.

It gets better folks, I'm on a runner here, each time I hook up an extra battery, the transistor runs cooler, nice that, so in the end I have 21 gell cells hooked up in series, and the Joule Thief is driving energy into all these gell cells, but it's being driven just by 1 single D size 1.2volt Nicad battery.

I have more gellcells to whack into this battery array if I want to, hmmmm I like this even better.

I have a temp meter hooked to the 2N3055 to keep an eye on it
I have a DMM for the current output which is .31ma and gradually tuning it with the base transistor, I could get it to .39ma
The voltage of the gellcell series array is theritical at 252volts, if they were in good condition.
Mabbye the HZ will recondition the cells

But many of the gell cell themselves are faulty, I measured on my DMM a total of 177v DC before the test.
But when I began initially, the voltage rose from 177 volts to 209volts, 2 hours later the GC array rose to 211volts.
I havent taken the JT out of circuit, I will let this experiment run all night long and do this tomorrow morning.

Sorry everyone, I got photos but carnt post them as my ISP has a modem software problem disalowing this.

Bill thats the reason I couldn't send that file to you before.
Now, just how many cells can I hook up to this Joule Thief?

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 12, 2010, 08:58:05 AM

Here is another short video of another coil test.
I just wanted to document this coil test because it is working so well.
I didn't show it in the video but when you tutch the battery it extends the field even more making the lights brighter.
People be carefull this thing it bites I got a couple good rf burns off it.
It's not a shock but it's like someone tutched you with a lit cigarette.

Once my test are done I'll upload the circuit with all the specs.

Here is the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qppwoNAH6sQ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 12, 2010, 01:34:37 PM

Jim,
This is fantastic information.
I have always hoped to try this.
I am so glad you did, and now we can know that we can recharge things of much higher voltage than the original because the spikes will do that.
So well done!!

Thanks,

any hope for a circuit?
Like a linear description without descriptive breaks?
Can it be done with keystrokes?
I will see if I have the hazens drawing to start with.

jeanna
edit:
This is the closest drawing I have but it still lacks the diodes.
But maybe you can start describing from here.
j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 12, 2010, 02:23:05 PM

i have been busy aswell!

: )

new high speed battery recharge pulse motor ..

: )

i charged a 12vdc cordless drill battery in like 10 min!

small 12vdc source ..

and i have found a great vcr head from momma! : ) then i took the 6" hole saw in a drill press and punched a few holes!

hey why is it snowing in dc ? lol ; )

W

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 12, 2010, 05:47:28 PM

It does seem that these spikes really do charge batteries very fast. I just finished watching freenergyinfo's set of a video of john bedini and it shows this really clearly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aA8-0tctyw&feature=channel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aA8-0tctyw&feature=channel)
No about joule thief, but see what spikes can do, since this is the whole point of making a joule thief with a secondary. It is great to see how easy it is to fill a battery.

Oh and notice that if you want more, just add more inductors IN SERIES and the pulses going through one will go trough them all. (This is the most important thing I learned with my multiple secondaries. John saw the same thing and applied it differently...cool.)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 12, 2010, 05:54:55 PM

I built this, it seems to work, it produces minimal light though. It consumes 0.78mA Haven't taken voltage measurements, but I built it with two axial lead inductors - not joined on a unified core, it seems to function better with the inductors dissociated.

- - - - -

On another note, I haven't been able to get the 2n7000 to function with this circuit, it seems to leach massive milliamps - perhaps a mosfet isn't going to work like I want it to.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 12, 2010, 06:37:21 PM

@ jadaro2600

I am just guessing, but maybe your circuit "jtc_res_2" will oscillate without the upper inductor. It looks like you may have made a type of relaxation oscillator. But the upper inductor is needed to light the LED since that is what produces the voltage spike.

You come up with very interesting circuits.

It may work like this. The capacitor charges up through the resistor until the voltage is high enough to turn on the transistor. When the transistor turns on it looks like a short to ground and will drain the voltage from the capacitor through the resistor. When the capacitor voltage gets low enough the transistor will turn off again. When the transistor is on it is pulling a lot of current through the upper inductor so when the transistor turns off there is a big voltage spike from the collapsing magnetic field. You should be able to make the upper inductor really big and get a very big voltage spike.

EDIT: Lower inductor may not be needed. You may want to put a resistor in series the the positive battery terminal.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 12, 2010, 07:11:20 PM

Quote from: xee2 on February 12, 2010, 06:37:21 PM
@ jadaro2600

I am just guessing, but maybe your circuit "jtc_res_2" will oscillate without the upper inductor. It looks like you may have made a type of relaxation oscillator. But the upper inductor is needed to light the LED since that is what produces the voltage spike.

You come up with very interesting circuits.

It may work like this. The capacitor charges up through the resistor until the voltage is high enough to turn on the transistor. When the transistor turns on it looks like a short to ground and will drain the voltage from the capacitor through the resistor. When the capacitor voltage gets low enough the transistor will turn off again.

Thank you. It will only light one LED, other can be put in parallel, the light it emits is very low, not too low though. It was using 1.2mA a minute ago, and taking a votlage reading, a capacitor charges to 3.8v.

I think that the operation is somewhat strange, it has two paths, wihc can essentially be open at the same time via the upper inductor, but 'relaxation' occurs, as you say, due to the capacitor charging and discharging.

the main capacitor seems to have a charge on it of 0.58v ... the capacitor is labeled 221

I tired inductors of larger value and they don't seems to work - only very low inductances are working. These were mismatched pairs however ...

- - - - -
It's snowing here for the first time in 8 years ... if it sticks, it will be the first time in 18 years.
- - - - -

Edit: ..correction, this device only seems to work when the inductors are matched inductance. I have two larger inductors, but they seem to be producing the same effects.

I'll be trying to tweak the capacitor to see what the results are. The device seems to reach a resonance at a low level of output voltages in this configuration.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 12, 2010, 07:30:18 PM

@ jadaro2600

See my edit. If you can get it working without the lower inductor then I think this is what is happening.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 12, 2010, 07:40:47 PM

Quote from: xee2 on February 12, 2010, 07:30:18 PM
@ jadaro2600

See my edit. If you can get it working without the lower inductor then I think this is what is happening.

I'll try this approach, perhaps I can use a small resistor instead; I was hinting at this with the design, but things seems to be sensitive in this setup.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 12, 2010, 08:04:40 PM

@ jadaro2600

If you need the lower inductor then you probably have an LC oscillator. But this should not work without feedback from the other inductor. With feedback it would be similar to slayer007 sec circuit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 12, 2010, 08:18:20 PM

I just discovered a very unusual effect.

Using matched axial lead inductors in the configuration below - by bring a magnet near one, I am able to turn the oscillations OFF, by bringing it close to another, I am able to brighten the LED output OR turn it off using magnetic orientation...

Some help in figuring this out would be appreciated...

I have rearranged the circuit, So I post below the schematic, and perhaps I'll have a video of the effects soon. I am not much of a narrator, so I may not be speaking in it.

I'll be testing some inductors which have an obvious field configuration to them so that I know how the magnet is oriented relative to the coil.

Edit: update; I do have some other inductors and tested them, the light output ceased when apply a magnetic field axially with the windings. of the base inductor / capacitor array... it had little effect on it with the magnet at perpendicular.

Additionally, placing the magnet axially on the collector inductor had the same effect ( light stopped appearing ), while placing it at perpendicular only minimally increased output. This may simply have the effect of increasing the inductance on the collector inductor.

With the larger coils, orientation at 90 degrees causes a shutoff, strangely though, this happens when one is in the vertical position and seems irrelevant elsewhere ( which I find odd, it's almost as if it's interacting with the capacitors ).

I'll try to upload a video and post the link here - i don't feel like messing with youtube at the moment.

Here is that video w/ diagram in zip file: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=370 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=370)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 12, 2010, 08:46:39 PM

i think ballance is key ...

perfect ballance is NOT REQUIRED

if you get it just right it will blow up ..

something will give!

infact i use a slight UNBALLANCE to cause it to work harder !

my latest units are secondaryless!

: )

feedback is key aswell !

lower resistance with spinning units ... high resistance with motionless!

5k works well on my POLORAZIED bedini with bucking magnets on the back ...

my 6 coil tpu uses 1k 5w 3055 and i BLEW METERS from it ! some places read 220 ma 300vdc

my last unit is running low resistance .. only 2 magnets on a 6" wheel bout 300 rpm 1 coil

clearly the more magnets you use the faster it will spinn the faster it will make and break per reveloution .. THE FASTER IT WILL RECHARGE ! !!!

IST

now the rest of my push coils i could add air core secondaries .. and pull from them .. as i power the primary drive coil of the aux coils .. from my 1 bifillar drive coil ..

how ever .. secondaries SLOW DOWN THE MOTOR ..... so u must spark gap from them! : )

then there is no loss in speed !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 12, 2010, 08:49:48 PM

@ Jeanna,

Thankyou for those kind remarks, I will try and do my best with a askii drawing, it wont be pritty.

You will need 2 x 1N4004 doides or faster switching ones like 1N4007's or even betterones like 1N5408's 3amper's
you will need 1 x 1N5408 as a reverse blocking diode on the POS output.
you will need 1 x 104K poly cap (tiny flat package) a green cap may work also
you will need 1 x 473K poly cap (tiny flat package) a green cap may work also

Procedure to build the HV pulce diode unit

Grab a A4 sheet of paper and draw on it the following way.

Draw a rectangle (very lightly) about 1 inch by 2 inches
Mark the corners of the rectangle, starting at the top, Top left is (1), top Right is (2), Bottom Right is (3) Bottom Left is (4).

1 2

4 3

Now draw a diode with the body of it in the middle between (1) and (4), the BAND facing corner (1)
Now draw a diode with the body of it in the middle between (2) and (3), the BAND facing corner (2)
Now draw a Big Diode, from corner (2) going horozontal out about 2 inches, the BAND to the Right side.

Between (1) and (2) draw a ceramic capacitor, this is a small 104K polliester cap
Between (4) and (3) draw a ceramic capaciror, this is a small 473K polliester cap

The INPUT wires from the toroid connects to (1) and to (3)
The OUTPUT wire fro the POSITAVE is connected to BIG DIODE on (2)
The OUTPUT wire for the NEGATIVE is connected to corner (4)

Thats all to it folks.

IN
(1) (2) _________
0-----||--------0--------[ ||| ]---------(+) OUT
| | -----------
| |
| |
| | | |
|--| |--|
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| |
| |
| |
|-----||--------|
0 0
(4) (3)
NEG out IN

Hi voltage caps can be found in walton cockcroft HV units

I think my JT is built a little different that will be explained next post---------------------------------------------

IST, I got your PM, I agree we must talk PM me please.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 12, 2010, 08:53:00 PM

@all

I made a movie http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wS935WyumjY

Ok , so i used my new 49 size bulbs , one on the secondary first , then one on the transistor , when both bulbs are on the secondary bulb is brighter then when alone. You see me adjust the base resistor , the value is from 0 ohm to 300 ohm .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on February 12, 2010, 09:08:18 PM

Quote from: jeanna on February 12, 2010, 05:47:28 PM

Oh and notice that if you want more, just add more inductors IN SERIES and the pulses going through one will go trough them all. (This is the most important thing I learned with my multiple secondaries. John saw the same thing and applied it differently...cool.)

Jeanna

That part of the video was very close to what I was doing with my feedback/ flyback experments ......
I agree that you can just add more if you want more output power up to a point .......then you start choking the circuit.

Back then I was thinking more of flyback than i would now.
I used mostly JT coils and at first I always hooked up the secondarys in series with the load....... I did this to try to make the greatest flyback pulses .......I think today I would always hook then up with the primarys .......to prevent the choking effect.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 12, 2010, 09:08:32 PM

@ Mk1

:o Is this correct? You are lighting a filament bulb from a pickup coil that is only connected to the bulb and only using a 1.5 volt battery? Amazing.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 12, 2010, 09:14:36 PM

Quote from: xee2 on February 12, 2010, 09:08:32 PM
@ Mk1

:o Is this correct? You are lighting a filament bulb from a pickup coil that is only connected to the bulb and only using a 1.5 volt battery? Amazing.

Interesting; I agree, the filament bulb, does it get warm?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 12, 2010, 09:26:31 PM

Quote from: xee2 on February 12, 2010, 09:08:32 PM
@ Mk1

:o Is this correct? You are lighting a filament bulb from a pickup coil that is only connected to the bulb and only using a 1.5 volt battery? Amazing.

Yes the bulb on the right is only connected to the pickup coil.

The one on the left is between the E and C of the transistor , so i guess is like direct to the battery.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 12, 2010, 09:31:21 PM

Very nice work Mark!!!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 12, 2010, 09:40:29 PM

electricme's
My Hazens Joule Thief.

Glue a 2N3055 upside down on a bit of wood or board
the collector toward you

Glue a 1 K pot upside down on the board, the center
connection contacting the Collector, use a lot of solder.

|----------------------------------------------------------------
| \
| |----||---| c1 |
| /-- ---\ | | |
+| /_______\___|__/\/\/\__|_____ |
--- / | \ | | | R1 & R2 |
------ | 0 0 | |--/\/\/\--| /-----| ------------------------\ |
_ | | b /e+| | /--| ----------------------- |--|
|-------\------/ / | | / | |
| \ / | | / \ |
| \ 0 / | \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \
| \ c /-----------------|
| -- above represents Bifilar winds
LED |
|----------\__|__/
/ \
| P O T |
\ R3 /
-----

R1 & R2 = 100 ohm resistors= 50ohms in parallel
R3 = 1K ohm POT
C1 = 103 1KV Blue ceramic
T1 = 2N3055 transistor
Toroid = Grey 27mm outside dia, 15 or 16mm inner dia

Turns
Bifiler = 7
Secondary
Start one end and wind on 80 turns, then keep winding, but go
back from you where you came from with another 80 turns.

I think I have the connections correct on the toroid, if it dosent work swap the ends on one side.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 12, 2010, 10:08:08 PM

OK jim,
Sorry, but I cannot get my orientation from the ascii drawing.
I have added what I can from what you have said.
I have no clue where to put those diodes or the extra resistors.
I assume I can erase this led, but I left in case you kept it.

Please give me verbal description of what to add or subtract and where.

jeanna
edit
wait, maybe I can...
OK ready to get corrections.
I do not know where those diodes are supposed to go!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 12, 2010, 10:45:10 PM

Electricme's series battery setup

WARNING
This Battery Bank is dangerous in incompetant hands.

If you have NO electrical experience or are inexperienced with electrical knowledge, DO NOT Make this Battery pack.
If you have not made a battery bank before, then read my instructions below.
If you have no idea of what you are doing (BE HONEST it's your life), then don't proceed further.

If you kill yourself or get injured in any way, thats your fault entirely, not mine.
If "you" decide to proceed to make this series battery, then you accept FULL responsibility entirely
and absolve me entirely from any blame or financial writ.
I am NOT encourraging anyone to make this battery bank.

I provide the diagram below in the interest of science technology only.

(+)--\ /---\ /---\ /---\ /-00-\ /---\ /---\ /---\ /-00-\ /---\ /--\
[||||] [||||] [||||] [||||] [||||] [||||] [||||] [||||] [||||] [||||] |
|
/------------------------------------------O_O----------------------------------------------------------/
| Emergency make n break switch
\-\ /---\ /-00-\ /---\ /---\ /---\ /-00-\ /---\ /---\ /---\ /---\
[||||] [||||] [||||] [||||] [||||] [||||] [||||] [||||] [||||] [||||] |
/
(-) ------\ /--00--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[||||] 21st battery

00 denotes a fuse
[||||] denotes a battery

To make a larger array, just add more 12v gell cells in series to the original ones
Every 48Volts, add a fuse in series.
Connect up DC cells in "banks ONLY"

Stand on a rubber mat
Wear rubber soled shoes
Use insulated gloves
Use "tools" designed for high DC voltages.
Work in a very dry area only

Never Ever, Ever connect from the beginning to the end, at each addition, the voltage rises 12v to the previous amount.

jim

A word of warning
DC voltage can KILL you, any voltage above 24volts take precortions, dont rush, keep the battery bench clean.
Don't hold tools or any metal objects in your hands if you need to check connections or measure batt voltages.
Take off any metal watches, fastenings, bangels metal jewlery, because if it contacts any exposed terminal, it will vaporise in an instant.
Molton metal takes a long time too cool, it will travel through the flesh downward, and wont stop until it cools.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 12, 2010, 10:53:08 PM

ist throws the CAUTION FLAG!!!

thats the SWORD! THE K ONE !

listen to jims warning!

W

how bout a relay or 10 jim lol

pop 1 after each battery! so when the last is full the next begins to charge! and motor / coil speed increases ...

: )

you can then throw a 100w 120vac bulb at the end of each chain ... and when the light comes on its full ... and ready to power your house ...

then just swap strings .. if you had enough batteries ... you will never run out of power ....
: )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 12, 2010, 11:01:19 PM

but ist,
They should all be filling at the same time are they not?

@jim,
I don't even own a second 12 volt battery, but I do want to know where to put that preassembled diode thing.

and confirmation that the drawing I made is right or where it is wrong... please?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 12, 2010, 11:10:24 PM

@ jadaro2600

Quote from: jadaro2600 on February 12, 2010, 08:18:20 PM
Using matched axial lead inductors in the configuration below - by bring a magnet near one, I am able to turn the oscillations OFF, by bringing it close to another, I am able to brighten the LED output OR turn it off using magnetic orientation...

Some help in figuring this out would be appreciated...

Are you using air core coils? It may not be the magnets, it may just be that you are bringing something magnetic into the field of the coils - plain steel may do the same thing.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 13, 2010, 12:05:35 AM

OK jim,
Here is the latest correction.
I reversed the direction of the transistor. I hope that works.

and the diode thing, please.
:D,

jeanna

You know Jim, maybe if you put the pot on the (+) side of the battery, that would save the transistor but not change the special effect??

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 13, 2010, 12:08:00 AM

Quote from: xee2 on February 12, 2010, 11:10:24 PM
@ jadaro2600

Are you using air core coils? It may not be the magnets, it may just be that you are bringing something magnetic into the field of the coils - plain steel may do the same thing.

These are prefab inductors with ferromagnetic cores.

I've attempted to setup a few other tests but they've failed, I think I fried my transistor in the process, oh well, ..12 cents of equipment. :P

Anyway, I'll try some other adjustments, The idea is to use only a single inductor - which can be done with two transistors, as has been seen elsewhere. I'm trying to fit the entire circuit down to the size of a flashlight bulb, using that setup, I can create a flashlight of longer battery life, or fewer batteries.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on February 13, 2010, 12:11:24 AM

Intersting series circuit dont ya think. I cant figure out which battery is discharging and which one is charging.

Think 3jt running out of phase

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 13, 2010, 12:14:56 AM

@jadaro

I lets both bulb run for 60 min and there is no heat on either the on on the secondary or on the transistor.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 13, 2010, 12:23:56 AM

Mark,
The coil on the video looks like the one that has a lot of spaces on the primary. Then I see the whole width being a single layer secondary of thick wire.
Is this right?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 13, 2010, 12:42:36 AM

Quote from: jeanna on February 13, 2010, 12:23:56 AM
Mark,
The coil on the video looks like the one that has a lot of spaces on the primary. Then I see the whole width being a single layer secondary of thick wire.
Is this right?

jeanna

That sounds right .

I will re-post the picture .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wS935WyumjY

On the video i try to put as much visual info as possible but my camera is so crappy . And this is the same one i posted a while back.

I am planing a new video if my battery allows it , they don't seem to hold the charge anymore. This time running a motor .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 13, 2010, 01:02:04 AM

Thanks Mark,
The thing I am not clear on is how many turns do you have for each segment?
It looks like 8, but on the final one with the thick copper secondary, it seems to be more like 16.
Of course, that would mean the second wire has 8 more.
Is that right?

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on February 13, 2010, 01:02:33 AM

electricme
is this correct.. other than me forgetting the led between battery and pot

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 13, 2010, 01:11:33 AM

Quote from: jeanna on February 13, 2010, 01:02:04 AM
Thanks Mark,
The thing I am not clear on is how many turns do you have for each segment?
It looks like 8, but on the final one with the thick copper secondary, it seems to be more like 16.
Of course, that would mean the second wire has 8 more.
Is that right?

thanks,

jeanna

Both jt coil are 18 turns , They are parallel separated by 10 degrees .

The pickup coil is 20 turns and is the thick wire on the circumference of the tube .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on February 13, 2010, 01:54:53 AM

during my investigation of Steven Mark's Coil from this video at 6:14
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hq1lhuBFmDI&feature=PlayList&p=DDDD867B83E10A2C&index=38&playnext=3&playnext_from=PL

I discovered his wiring technique, I am not sure if you know this or if I was the first to discover it but here it is.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on February 13, 2010, 02:09:09 AM

also this metal ring around the coil of 300ohm antenna wire, is it possibly a magnetic toroid or is it just a steel ring?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: ÐŸÐ’Ð on February 13, 2010, 02:17:06 AM

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 13, 2010, 02:22:35 AM

Quote from: ÐŸÐ'Ð on February 13, 2010, 02:17:06 AM
Ð¯ ÑÐ´ÐµÐ»Ð°Ð» Ð³ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ€Ð°Ñ,Ð¾Ñ€ Ð´Ð»Ñ TRU,Ñ€Ð°Ð±Ð¾Ñ,Ð°ÐµÑ, ÑÑ,Ð°Ð±Ð¸Ð»ÑŒÐ½Ð¾ .ÐŸÐ¾Ñ,Ñ€ÐµÐ±Ð»ÑÐµÑ, Ð¾Ñ‡ÐµÐ½ÑŒ Ð¼Ð°Ð»Ð¾!

Translation:

I did genirator for TRU, is stable. Consumes very little!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on February 13, 2010, 02:33:31 AM

also, I did a line count of the seen wires per 1/4 circumference and approximates to around 30 x 4 = 120 windings seen of the 300ohm antenna wire, there may be a margin of error in the count but it is a close approximation.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on February 13, 2010, 02:44:23 AM

also, could this be a 'copper toroid' with winding, looks like 30G or higher wiring. the toroids have the same near pixel color as copper so it is only an educated guess.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 13, 2010, 02:46:13 AM

Replication of kooler filament bulb circuit using flyswatter board.

video = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZWfTr9udrU

Almost no noticeable blinking with 3 volt battery.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 13, 2010, 02:48:06 AM

im just windeing the bedini long horn!

lol

bout 600 turns 22 gage and 24 gage bifillar .. and bout 1 hour full out on the drill of 28 gage secondary ..

J

i will bang all at 1 time but i think i need seperate transistors : )

1 per coil .. then i can pull from secondaries and drive the motor get transformer action on on and kick on off

ist!

plus there is generation action .. there as well from the neos this makes the biggest diffrance as i have seen when it comes to chargeing batteries .. motion less vrs motion ...

looks like i will go CARBON CHOP STICK NEXT!

off the many mile secondary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: ÐŸÐ’Ð on February 13, 2010, 03:43:07 AM

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on February 13, 2010, 03:52:43 AM

Quote from: onthecuttingedge2005 on February 13, 2010, 02:44:23 AM
also, could this be a 'copper toroid' with winding, looks like 30G or higher wiring. the toroids have the same near pixel color as copper so it is only an educated guess.

If they have two connecting leads each I would suggest they are chokes! They also seem to be mounted upon a heat sink. If they are chokes they may be in series with output coil drive devices either FET's or IGBT's as part of a high power sine wave oscillator. The chokes carry high current hence quite hefty.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 13, 2010, 04:55:08 AM

i was thinking i may also go glass rod and silk cloth on this spinner ontop of all the other magic it does !

: )

W

it already wobbles ! lol but thats due to poor craftsmanship ... via cordless drill and broken drill press! : )

or i could go belt and comb ...

lmfao

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sirmikey1 on February 13, 2010, 05:51:42 AM

Xee, kool, and all,

Identified the neon cap charger trick; and it shows several workarounds. Reminds me of capacitor timer circuits, use the discharge timeframe on one to charge another.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relaxation_oscillator

Mikey

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 13, 2010, 02:50:43 PM

Quote from: ÐŸÐ'Ð on February 13, 2010, 03:43:07 AM
Ð Ðµ Ð±ÑÑ,Ð° Ð¿Ð¾Ð¿Ñ€Ð¾Ð±ÑƒÐ¹Ñ,Ðµ Ð¼Ð¾ÑŽ ÑÑ...ÐµÐ¼Ñƒ.ÐžÐ½Ð° Ð²Ð°Ð¼ Ð¼Ð¾Ð¶ÐµÑ, Ð¿Ð¾Ð½Ñ€Ð°Ð²Ð¸Ñ,ÑÑ! ÐžÑ‡ÐµÐ½ÑŒ ÑÐºÐ¾Ð½Ð¾Ð¼Ð¸Ñ‡Ð½Ñ‹Ð¹ Ð³ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ€Ð°Ñ,Ð¾Ñ€ :)

Google translator: Re byata try my shemu.Ona you might like it! Very economical genirator

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on February 13, 2010, 03:55:01 PM

" ÐŸÑ€ÐµÐ¾Ð±Ñ€Ð°Ð·Ð¾Ð²Ð°Ñ,ÐµÐ»ÑŒ 2 001.jpg "

Anyone else besides me have a problem viewing that file ?

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: ÐŸÐ’Ð on February 13, 2010, 04:14:27 PM

Ð ÐµÐ±ÑÑ,Ð°! Ð¯ Ð½Ð°Ð²ÐµÑ€Ð½Ð¾Ðµ Ð² Ñ,,Ð¾Ñ€ÑƒÐ¼Ðµ HTTP : / / www.matri-x.ru/forum/index.php?/topic/970-tpu-Ã'Ã'Ã Â¸ Ã Â² ÃÎ¼Ã Â½ Ã Â° Ã Â¼-Ã Â° Ã'Ã Âº Ã Â° / page__st__1720 Ð´Ð°Ð» Ð¿Ð¾Ð»Ð½ÑƒÑŽ Ð¸Ð½Ñ,,Ð¾Ñ€Ð¼Ð°Ñ†Ð¸ÑŽ Ð¾ Ð¼Ð¾Ð¸Ñ... Ð¸Ð·Ñ‹ÑÐºÐ°Ð½Ð¸ÑÑ... ,Ð½Ð° Ð¸Ð½Ñ,ÐµÑ€ÐµÑÑƒÑŽÑ‰ÑƒÑŽ Ð²Ð°Ñ Ñ,ÐµÐ¼Ñƒ.Ð•ÑÐ»Ð¸ ÑÑ,Ð¾Ñ, Ñ,,Ð¾Ñ€ÑƒÐ¼ Ð¾Ñ,ÐºÑ€Ð¾ÐµÑ,ÑÑ,Ð¿Ð¾ÑÐ¼Ð¾Ñ,Ñ€Ð¸Ñ,Ðµ Ð¼Ð¾Ð¸ Ð¿Ð¸ÑÑŒÐ¼Ð°.Ð¡ÐµÐ¹Ñ‡Ð°Ñ Ñ,,Ð¾Ñ€ÑƒÐ¼ Ð½Ðµ Ñ€Ð°Ð±Ð¾Ñ,Ð°ÐµÑ,,Ð²Ð¾Ð·Ð¼Ð¾Ð¶Ð½Ð¾ Ð¼Ð¾Ð´ÐµÑ€Ð°Ñ,Ð¾Ñ€ Ð¸ ÑƒÐ´Ð°Ð»Ð¸Ñ, Ð²ÑÐµ Ð¼Ð¾Ð¸ Ð¿Ð¸ÑÑŒÐ¼Ð°!!!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: mscoffman on February 13, 2010, 04:33:08 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 13, 2010, 02:50:43 PM
Google translator: Re byata try my shemu.Ona you might like it! Very economical genirator

Bill

Ok...you forced me to look at the circuit. ;)

It has 24V AC input of some type, some frequency because it
flows into a transformer winding. Oh, those aren't screws they are
phase symbols. Maybe AC derived from some storage batteries?
T1 is most likely a toroid transformer and is not described?
The inductors are not described? It seems to be a three stage
FET (voltage based) ring mutivibrator oscillator circuit pumping
three inductors. Then three bipolar transistors (current based)
drive other individual T1 transformer windings. The output from
those windings is rectified to 220Vdc. I assume 220V AC is their
line voltage. The circuit must have some unusual characteristics
of some sort. :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 13, 2010, 04:40:22 PM

In this video I just wanted to show that you can run the lights and still capture the BEMF from the circuit without affecting the lights.
It actually makes the lights a little brighter you will notice the camera compensates for the extra light.And it should reduce the current intake a little if you use the positive source for your negative charge.
There is also the second coil inside the big one that will run more light or cfl's.There is some induction between the coils but it is very little.

Here is the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPZUpIjHM70

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 13, 2010, 05:29:49 PM

@slayer

Another great vid, my parts just came in for my first round of tests on this set-up....well the very basic starting set-up. Hopefully tomorrow I can post a vid or at least some pics. Again thanks for sharing.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 13, 2010, 06:12:21 PM

@all

I was salvaging a microwave , there is nice stuff in there , first the motor has a quite nice coil , plenty of 30 gauge mag wire , the magnetron is always a great treat for magnet lover , the AC cap is great , then there is the transformer , we had some heated discussion he and i , you see i need fat wire.

@stprue

I made i new video , i don't know if you had any chance to see it .

There it is anyway http://www.youtube.com/user/abramrk1#p/a/u/0/wS935WyumjY

Title: Re: Jule Thief recharging
Post by: jeanna on February 13, 2010, 08:27:10 PM

I have drawn down a Nicad to 1.2v with a 5 hours discharge and I am letting it rest for a minute. Next I will stick it on to the bridge for charging.
I have tested the jtc with a bridge and cap and the cap collects 45-53v in 20-30 seconds. (scope says 104v single directional spikes.)
The "snap" is much louder with a camera cap than with a 350v 22uF cap but the charge is the same.
So, same but different in a cap.
We will see what happens in a Nicad.

This is an interesting thing, too, this Nicad was an old one I found a few days ago.
It had some charge so I recharged it (well 2 of them), and put it into the world light.
I think it was down in 3 hours, so I popped the other one in and then recharged both then ran them down again.
I think 2 times each is what I did.
Today the one I used lasted 5 hours.
I wonder if just using a battery in a jtc will have some reconditioning effect.

I have only used NiMH and I am wondering if the Nicad memory can break up when pushing a jtc.

Has anybody seen this effect on any old Nicad's?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sirmikey1 on February 13, 2010, 08:42:53 PM

Cazpro,
Grab it with firefox or opera, and rename when saving to fix the lang. I got it okay with opera.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 13, 2010, 09:14:22 PM

Quote from: ÐŸÐ'Ð on February 13, 2010, 04:14:27 PM
Ð ÐµÐ±ÑÑ,Ð°! Ð¯ Ð½Ð°Ð²ÐµÑ€Ð½Ð¾Ðµ Ð² Ñ,,Ð¾Ñ€ÑƒÐ¼Ðµ HTTP : / / www.matri-x.ru/forum/index.php?/topic/970-tpu-Ã'Ã'Ã Â¸ Ã Â² ÃÎ¼Ã Â½ Ã Â° Ã Â¼-Ã Â° Ã'Ã Âº Ã Â° / page__st__1720 Ð´Ð°Ð» Ð¿Ð¾Ð»Ð½ÑƒÑŽ Ð¸Ð½Ñ,,Ð¾Ñ€Ð¼Ð°Ñ†Ð¸ÑŽ Ð¾ Ð¼Ð¾Ð¸Ñ... Ð¸Ð·Ñ‹ÑÐºÐ°Ð½Ð¸ÑÑ... ,Ð½Ð° Ð¸Ð½Ñ,ÐµÑ€ÐµÑÑƒÑŽÑ‰ÑƒÑŽ Ð²Ð°Ñ Ñ,ÐµÐ¼Ñƒ.Ð•ÑÐ»Ð¸ ÑÑ,Ð¾Ñ, Ñ,,Ð¾Ñ€ÑƒÐ¼ Ð¾Ñ,ÐºÑ€Ð¾ÐµÑ,ÑÑ,Ð¿Ð¾ÑÐ¼Ð¾Ñ,Ñ€Ð¸Ñ,Ðµ Ð¼Ð¾Ð¸ Ð¿Ð¸ÑÑŒÐ¼Ð°.Ð¡ÐµÐ¹Ñ‡Ð°Ñ Ñ,,Ð¾Ñ€ÑƒÐ¼ Ð½Ðµ Ñ€Ð°Ð±Ð¾Ñ,Ð°ÐµÑ,,Ð²Ð¾Ð·Ð¼Ð¾Ð¶Ð½Ð¾ Ð¼Ð¾Ð´ÐµÑ€Ð°Ñ,Ð¾Ñ€ Ð¸ ÑƒÐ´Ð°Ð»Ð¸Ñ, Ð²ÑÐµ Ð¼Ð¾Ð¸ Ð¿Ð¸ÑÑŒÐ¼Ð°!!!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 13, 2010, 10:07:02 PM

Hi everyone,
I am charging the Nicad with the jtc secondary.
I just added a led at the basic jtc spot and it lit up, so then I checked the scope.
The scope shows a very very low sine wave curve with 12 v with the battery charging and 10v same shape with the led in place.
I will need to do a real test over time etc later, but I can light a led and recharge the Nicad simultaneously!!
It is set up like gadget's but opposite.

What is really strange about this is that I am looking at the secondary wires at the usual place, across them. Then beyond them, is a bridge with an additional diode at the pos and neg corners.
Then to the wires of the battery holder.

So, this is closing the circuit with the bridge and removing all the spikes that go high.
So, where is this 12v coming from?
It is reduced by 2v when I use one led, so the 12v remaining here seem to be "real".

This is pretty interesting.

More later.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 13, 2010, 11:21:16 PM

I was able to modify this circuit into an astable multivibrator joule thief circuit. here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Transistor_Multivibrator.svg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Transistor_Multivibrator.svg) by replacing R1 and R4 with small inductors and running the diodes off the collectors. Potentiometer up top.

It uses around 20ma ... I've been reluctant to test my trigger coils, I will have to do some soldering to get the terminals to connect to my breadboard - might as well do this all at once.

Lights LEDs pretty well, thinking about using trigger coils instead of the inductors.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 13, 2010, 11:25:12 PM

@jadaro,
This is cool.

This circuit should be blinking.
Did you get it to look steady?

Nice work!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 13, 2010, 11:35:39 PM

Quote from: jeanna on February 13, 2010, 11:25:12 PM
@jadaro,
This is cool.

This circuit should be blinking.
Did you get it to look steady?

Nice work!

jeanna

:)

Using very small capacitors, the lighting looks continuous.

edit: By increasing the inductance on one inductor, I'm able to increase the voltage boost on the opposite side with a lesser inductance. For instance I have a 10 uH inductor on one side and a 100 uH inductor on the other side ( instead of off positive, it's connected behind the potentiometer ). The rectified voltage off the 10 uH inductor is 30V and barely lights an LED on the other side.

note, setup on the lossy side is altering the circuit to be more monostable, in this case it's an inductor on one side, and a resistor + inductor on the other.

The circuit is using 30mA now, seems this could use some improvement right now.

Also, I tried routing the diodes back to the beginning of the inductor so that the collapse didn't occur between negative and positive, instead between collector and positive, ..this seems to decrease the current consumed, but also drops voltage gains a bit.

The inital boost on a circuit with two 10 uH inductors, rectified, is 5.2 volts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 14, 2010, 12:07:39 AM

@ jadaro2600

Quote from: jadaro2600 on February 13, 2010, 11:21:16 PM
I was able to modify this circuit into an astable multivibrator joule thief circuit.

Another interesting circuit. Great work. Do you know what the inductor values are. I would suspect that the larger they are the higher the C-E voltage will be.

EDIT: I see you answered in your edit as I was posting. Thanks.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 14, 2010, 12:31:36 AM

Quote from: xee2 on February 14, 2010, 12:07:39 AM
@ jadaro2600

Another interesting circuit. Great work. Do you know what the inductor values are. I would suspect that the larger they are the higher the C-E voltage will be.

EDIT: I see you answered in your edit as I was posting. Thanks.

No problem. I did notice there was a sort of inverse relation though; here is a picture, if I had more LEDs - I would light them as well.

Lower leads are off to the ammeter. ~30mA. Blue is the option path I explored, dashed line is optional, removing when operating seems to increase functionality.

note: the diodes in the image are all light emitting diodes - I seem to lack a decent LED icon to use with my software.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 14, 2010, 01:06:32 AM

@ jadaro2600

This is just a guess.

The voltage is probably lower on the 100 uh side because the 100 uH inductor has a larger resistance. It is the resistance rather than the inductance that is reducing the voltage (transistor can not draw as much current because of the higher resistance). You could increase the current by reducing the base resistor value.

EDIT: On second thought, reducing base resistor will not help. The current is limited by I=E/R and thus there is only so much current that will go through the 100 uH inductor resistance with 1.5 volts. So the only way to get the advantage of the larger inductance would be to find a 100 uH inductor with the same resistance as your 10 uH inductor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 14, 2010, 01:20:17 AM

Quote from: xee2 on February 14, 2010, 01:06:32 AM
@ jadaro2600

This is just a guess.

The voltage is probably lower on the 100 uh side because the 100 uH inductor has a larger resistance. It is the resistance rather than the inductance that is reducing the voltage (transistor can not draw as much current because of the higher resistance). You could increase the current by reducing the base resistor value.

I noticed it behave like this in both the original and the altered versions. I think it's odd, but I suspect that the increased voltage is due to the decreased switching frequency ( or the disparity of frequencies ) between the two. I will have to tinker with it some more.

Goal is to decrease current usage over all.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 14, 2010, 01:24:42 AM

@ jadaro2600

If you did not see my edit on my previous post on last page, please read it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 14, 2010, 02:02:00 AM

@ jadaro2600

My comments are based on my experience with this circuit. In order to get the LED to be bright I had to make my own inductor in order to get a low resistance (50 ohms was for the manufactured one). But this was 100 mH and you are only using 100 uH so your problems my be different.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 14, 2010, 04:25:44 AM

Quote from: xee2 on February 14, 2010, 02:02:00 AM
@ jadaro2600

My comments are based on my experience with this circuit. In order to get the LED to be bright I had to make my own inductor in order to get a low resistance (50 ohms was for the manufactured one). But this was 100 mH and you are only using 100 uH so your problems my be different.

Ok, I think I understand what you mean. I like this circuit as well ( you posted ) I remember it from the NPN PNP derivatives - low energy, etc thread. I've been meaning to post there with my mosfet results - but they've not been going so well, apparently BJT's are the way to go for now.

Can you give me an idea of how many turns you have on your self made inductor?

I picked up some ferrite rods and was thinking of winding my own trigger coils - unfortunately I have no way of knowing what the inductance is - as I have no meter to measure it.

I would like to create this to work with only one inductor, a single coil, without a coil to base, but it seems I would have to look into negative resistance hacks, or some other component specific peculiarities in order to do this.

@all,
... I had another thoughT, a capacitor. A FLUX capacitor, :P ..

Something with an interference plate to confuse the operation of the transistor. It could have three or more plates, if it had three plates, then they could be stacked, and the capacitance could be made ( with leads attached ) to each of the three plates.

Four plates would be shaped like an 'X' where each would be a wedge-like plate...etc.

Though I'm not an electrical engineer; I think the capacitive coupling would be fundamentally such that it would create charge confusion and thus an ability to create a resonance oscillation when properly connected to a transistor.

Also, I think it could be modeled with basic capacitors, the leads on those capacitors may not work though. :P

--||-|-||--

or

|
--//\\--

..that's enough of my ascii art though.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 14, 2010, 07:41:57 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 13, 2010, 06:12:21 PM
@all

I was salvaging a microwave , there is nice stuff in there , first the motor has a quite nice coil , plenty of 30 gauge mag wire , the magnetron is always a great treat for magnet lover , the AC cap is great , then there is the transformer , we had some heated discussion he and i , you see i need fat wire.

@stprue

I made i new video , i don't know if you had any chance to see it .

There it is anyway http://www.youtube.com/user/abramrk1#p/a/u/0/wS935WyumjY

This was a great video and within...hopefully....a few weeks I might need your help designing this coil! Very powerful for 1.5v! What are the bulbs rated at? I have been thinking of a good idea that I will need to try when some more parts come in. Until then I will be testing the super JT or spacial coherence exciter circuit. Keep up the good work.

;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 14, 2010, 08:11:25 AM

@MK1

Here is my AV plug! You should build one and see if it can detect your coil!

;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 14, 2010, 08:20:52 AM

For those looking for LEDS...ebay has been a good source lately

http://cgi.ebay.com/100-pcs-5mm-round-White-LED-superbright-bulb-lamp-light_W0QQitemZ330398154435QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4ced43bec3

http://cgi.ebay.com/500-pcs-5mm-round-White-LED-superbright-bulb-light_W0QQitemZ330399597073QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4ced59c211

I just got 500 for $6.99 US with free shipping! Dont see that on this last quick look though! Sorry!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sirmikey1 on February 14, 2010, 09:33:50 AM

stprue,
May also be something to try on the transistor base ;)
Mikey

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 14, 2010, 11:05:01 AM

@ jadaro2600

Quote from: jadaro2600 on February 14, 2010, 04:25:44 AM
Can you give me an idea of how many turns you have on your self made inductor?

For the large 3.38" diameter toroids: millihenries = (0.0075) x (# of turns) x (# of turns)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 14, 2010, 11:22:59 AM

Basic Simple SEC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PugsoCe2pqU

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 14, 2010, 11:33:33 AM

looks like im haveing a wee bit of luck rechargeing 12vdc batteries ...

with my pulse motor ... : )

corse i added my tricks ...

just a really simple one ... and now it charges resonablly fast ... battery was 5vdc when i started ...

less than 24 hours ago ... im at 11.7vdc ..

my motor is running high speed !

and i can DRIVE MY CAP VOLTAGE UP IN SECONDS! to what ever voltage i choose ... when i load it ..

MY MOTOR KEEPS ITS SPEED ..

so in short ... i have been rechargeing a 12vdc with 220vdc .. STEADY PUMP ..

in 6 hours .. it has slowly droped to 86vdc ... of push ..

then in seconds i can fill it to 220 and do it agin ...

it is EXTREAMLY SIMPLE!

with a bit of luck i could remove the 12vdc source!

im just useing 1 coil on this unit ... in run mode!

ist

well i just recharged it to 260vdc in my cap hooked it up and bang goes the diode...

so hummm 260vdc is too much ... i used a fr306 diode 1000v 3 amp ..

guess the cap is a little big ... lol

its

2500 mfd 400v

basiclly USE A CAM UNIT TO CHARGE THE CAP FIRST

thank you !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 14, 2010, 12:02:41 PM

@ stprue

Quote from: stprue on February 14, 2010, 11:22:59 AM
Basic Simple A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PugsoCe2pqU

Nice video. Thanks for posting HD version.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 14, 2010, 01:36:45 PM

Speaking of inductors, why not make and use a tunable inductor as Lidmotor does in this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUTDY6mw45I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUTDY6mw45I)

I think this same idea could be used on a much smaller inductor.

Just an idea.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 14, 2010, 01:44:50 PM

ok so it apears i can not duplicate the results!

this is the reason why ....

i cleaned the termanials ....

clearly the rust and corrosion played a much larger roll than i origonally noticed ...

i have no problem to charge the cap! but when i hook it up ... big fireworks ... show ...

where with the rust and such ... i never had that problem ...

however it charges quite nicely as it is ! running 13vdc !

ist!

here is the BIGGEST SECREAT!

all we all need to do is design a NEGITIVE RESISTOR !

: )

screw it on the neg of the battery!

: )

lmfao

this will cause a reserve in the cap and cause it to fill the battery faster and the motor will accelerate ...

till it reaches .. its setting .. mine stoped at 130 vdc and ran nice there for a long time 4 hours .. then i DROVE CAP VOLTAGE high and went to bed ! i woke up it was at 86vdc in push cap battery was filling verry well

then i stoped the whole mess set it up on the round to make a PUBLIC VIDEO and i cleaned the termanials ... and here we are !

the battery is almost full 12.75 vdc !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 14, 2010, 02:38:13 PM

Output voltage of non-modified flyswatter board:

with 1.5 volt battery = 434 volts

with 3.0 volt battery = 857 volts

I seem to be getting lower voltages than reported by others

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 14, 2010, 02:39:34 PM

deleted by xee2 - double post. I got error message when I tried to post the first time so I posted again. Then the first post appeared. ???

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 14, 2010, 02:41:08 PM

@all

I just found this interesting link , if you look at the bottom of the page you will see the 3 Radio shack spool of wire so familiar to us the 22,26,and 30 used for making an electromagnet , the operating voltage is 5 v DC .

I assume the 3 spools have the same wire mass .

You see some really different strength result ...

http://www.coolmagnetman.com/magdcem.htm

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 14, 2010, 02:42:21 PM

sorry double post here !!!

Btw i just tested my newest coils with the bulb , i will need to make a movie , i light nicely on its 8 turn pickup coil , plus the satellite coil lights leds easy without affecting the bulb on the secondary.

I also tried a 6 volts the element got red .

This is the one with a 10 volts output that use to give 0v before i rewind the second layer.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 14, 2010, 06:17:19 PM

@all

NEW MOVIE Slim Version 5 turn 16 layer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9BMTAlL0dU

Lighting leds on the satellite coil , and the 2 volt bulb on the secondary .

8 turn secondary about 10 v rectified dc .

The picture is from an 6 volts bulb .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 14, 2010, 07:23:51 PM

i bet a spark gap will work well for a ark resistor !

i designed the spark ark quartz light ... / regulator

and i also pulled apart a heater for the reostat !

it will not work on low volt .... bet it works awesome for my high volt ...

since i cleaned the termanals it is running as a usual bedini chargeing no problem but 10 times slower than the high resistance mod / spark gap ..

: )

im chargeing at 13.5 there bouts volts!

ist

im useing a 35vdc 17 000 uf cap

its probally safest to run it the way i have it ... as who knows if a battery will explode or not ...

atleast how it is it is regulated and chargeing as a battery should charge !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 14, 2010, 08:42:16 PM

Here's another JTC with an independent oscillation tank circuit. Seems you can control the oscillations with the capacitance and the inductance. Unfortunately, the inductances need to be close to one another ( measures not proximity ).

Still working towards a single transistor, single inductor design. Trying to reduce the number of components in the boost.

Blue is an either / or path for the capacitor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 14, 2010, 09:08:03 PM

@ jadaro2600

Quote from: jadaro2600 on February 14, 2010, 08:42:16 PM
Here's another JTC with an independent oscillation tank circuit. Seems you can control the oscillations with the capacitance and the inductance. Unfortunately, the inductances need to be close to one another ( measures not proximity ).

Still working towards a single transistor, single inductor design. Trying to reduce the number of components in the boost.

Blue is an either / or path for the capacitor.

I am pretty sure your inductors are coupling. To check, try reversing one of them. If they are not coupled then that should not matter. If they are, you should be able to reduce the inductance of the upper inductor by moving it physically closer to the lower inductor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 14, 2010, 10:03:54 PM

Quote from: xee2 on February 14, 2010, 09:08:03 PM
@ jadaro2600

I am pretty sure your inductors are coupling. To check, try reversing one of them. If they are not coupled then that should not matter. If they are, you should be able to reduce the inductance of the upper inductor by moving it physically closer to the lower inductor.

I tired to reverse the inductor, I also turned it 90 degrees, there was no operational differences, it seems to be decoupled.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 14, 2010, 10:33:38 PM

@ jadaro2600

Quote from: jadaro2600 on February 14, 2010, 10:03:54 PM
I tired to reverse the inductor, I also turned it 90 degrees, there was no operational differences, it seems to be decoupled.

Hmmm... Oscillators theoretically require some type of feedback to work. If the inductors are not coupling maybe there is enough ripple on the battery voltage to act as feedback. Very strange.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on February 15, 2010, 12:43:46 AM

jadaro
i have played with the same config.. your last diagram looks interesting.. good work..

xee2
if you keep them within 1/2 '' apart or closer they work really good.
if you want a secondary use two inverters link together the same way
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G13599 (http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G13599)
these will give you alittle over 200 volts at 1.5 volt input if you tie the two outputs together..
light a noen real bright..

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 15, 2010, 04:08:46 AM

Kooler, I'm not sure which diagram you are referring to. The independent LRC or the other astable ones.

- - - -

I toyed with the standard jtc recently and I think the only step I need to take next is adding the trigger coils. They're small, so the only thing I need to do with them is solder leads onto the ends.

- - - -

I've read in a few places here about the coil capacitance - can anyone elaborate on this; I was thinking that having a partially bifilar coil ( true bifilar ) with a certain distance of the coil was contra/ counter wound on itself would provide additional capacitance in the coil.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 15, 2010, 09:25:29 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on February 15, 2010, 04:08:46 AM
Kooler, I'm not sure which diagram you are referring to. The independent LRC or the other astable ones.

- - - -

I toyed with the standard jtc recently and I think the only step I need to take next is adding the trigger coils. They're small, so the only thing I need to do with them is solder leads onto the ends.

- - - -

I've read in a few places here about the coil capacitance - can anyone elaborate on this; I was thinking that having a partially bifilar coil ( true bifilar ) with a certain distance of the coil was contra/ counter wound on itself would provide additional capacitance in the coil.

Google "inductor self capacitance"

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 15, 2010, 10:00:08 AM

heres a SMAKER!

i just recharged 4 batterys 2 12vdc deep cycles ! and 2 lawn tractors .. at 48vdc from a 12vdc 3.6 amp hour battery! it ran bout 12 hours from that battery .. i started at 38.8vdc and now its 39.65vdc ...

1 coil

yes its a joule theif JUST AS I SAID IT WAS

so never mind trying to tell me to post it else where ...

as ill tell you to go post your TPU IN THE TPU SECTION!!!!!

: )

W

i did 12 vdc recharge 24 36 48 and today i will do 60 vdc 1 coil ...

on this unit i could have 8 feeds all rechargeing 10 batteries each if i so desire !

: )

guess i never learned anything ... lol

thats 80 batteries from 1 : ) and only the back side of the coil no long horn secondaries ... nothing fancy
...

NO BAD COILS! so NO scalar spitting 1/4 meggawatt diode blowing air coils INVOLVED ....

: )

i know i got it right years ago!

yea ... i dont get a head ache eather!

any more BULL FROGS ... want to swim in my pond ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 15, 2010, 10:52:47 AM

Here are some pics on some of new tests 5 vdc in!

I put up the wave form because the diamond pattern seemed interesting!

The tube is 8 watts drawing 24.56ma!

Very little MA draw 2.88!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 15, 2010, 11:00:25 AM

@xee

Do you have a circuit diagram of a JT that can light approximately 150leds very bright and consuming minimal ma????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 15, 2010, 11:17:14 AM

@ stprue

Quote from: stprue on February 15, 2010, 11:00:25 AM
@xee

Do you have a circuit diagram of a JT that can light approximately 150leds very bright and consuming minimal ma????

Any circuit that will light a CFL should also light over 100 LEDs in series.
Use rectifier diode to protest LEDs.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 15, 2010, 11:22:54 AM

i build a gold mine ...

that lites a money lite!
UV full bright !

: )

agin getting this to run on a fart ... in my opinion ... IS THE LARGEST WASTE OF TIME ...

it only proves you laque the correct understanding !

: )

RE AND RA!

SEE IF THAT IS CHISELED IN STONE !

LMFAO

im not much an artist ... : )

but i picked up a pencel a pen and a sharpie fine point !

and i started to begin!

: )

throw in a little black and yellow ..
and get ready to sing it agin !

well i finally got over the sothern flu ... lol but now an old buddy came around !! CRAZY GUY!

so we shot a video crazy guy goes 48vdc bedini

all guy says is qui qui ! lol

dont know if i will post it public yet or not !

since crazy guy is around the lab i made some chopsticks carbon and i needed a stir stick or 2 for the nano crystal ... lol

; )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sirmikey1 on February 15, 2010, 11:46:52 AM

Hey, can you guys please take a look at Kooler's filament bulb JT circuit? I'm ordering parts and need a workaround for the cap charger neons. Anyone?

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8334.msg227459#msg227459

Mikey

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 15, 2010, 12:16:41 PM

Quote from: xee2 on February 15, 2010, 11:17:14 AM
@ stprue

Any circuit that will light a CFL should also light over 100 LEDs in series.
Use rectifier diode to protest LEDs.

Thank you Xee!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: zhak on February 15, 2010, 01:16:22 PM

Quote from: ÐŸÐ'Ð on February 13, 2010, 04:14:27 PM
Ð ÐµÐ±ÑÑ,Ð°! Ð¯ Ð½Ð°Ð²ÐµÑ€Ð½Ð¾Ðµ Ð² Ñ,,Ð¾Ñ€ÑƒÐ¼Ðµ HTTP : / / www.matri-x.ru/forum/index.php?/topic/970-tpu-Ã'Ã'Ã Â¸ Ã Â² ÃÎ¼Ã Â½ Ã Â° Ã Â¼-Ã Â° Ã'Ã Âº Ã Â° / page__st__1720 Ð´Ð°Ð» Ð¿Ð¾Ð»Ð½ÑƒÑŽ Ð¸Ð½Ñ,,Ð¾Ñ€Ð¼Ð°Ñ†Ð¸ÑŽ Ð¾ Ð¼Ð¾Ð¸Ñ... Ð¸Ð·Ñ‹ÑÐºÐ°Ð½Ð¸ÑÑ... ,Ð½Ð° Ð¸Ð½Ñ,ÐµÑ€ÐµÑÑƒÑŽÑ‰ÑƒÑŽ Ð²Ð°Ñ Ñ,ÐµÐ¼Ñƒ.Ð•ÑÐ»Ð¸ ÑÑ,Ð¾Ñ, Ñ,,Ð¾Ñ€ÑƒÐ¼ Ð¾Ñ,ÐºÑ€Ð¾ÐµÑ,ÑÑ,Ð¿Ð¾ÑÐ¼Ð¾Ñ,Ñ€Ð¸Ñ,Ðµ Ð¼Ð¾Ð¸ Ð¿Ð¸ÑÑŒÐ¼Ð°.Ð¡ÐµÐ¹Ñ‡Ð°Ñ Ñ,,Ð¾Ñ€ÑƒÐ¼ Ð½Ðµ Ñ€Ð°Ð±Ð¾Ñ,Ð°ÐµÑ,,Ð²Ð¾Ð·Ð¼Ð¾Ð¶Ð½Ð¾ Ð¼Ð¾Ð´ÐµÑ€Ð°Ñ,Ð¾Ñ€ Ð¸ ÑƒÐ´Ð°Ð»Ð¸Ñ, Ð²ÑÐµ Ð¼Ð¾Ð¸ Ð¿Ð¸ÑÑŒÐ¼Ð°!!!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 15, 2010, 02:50:24 PM

QuoteGuys! I'm probably in the forum HTTP: / / www.matri-x.ru/forum/index.php?/topic/970-tpu-Ã'Ã'Ã Â¸ Ã Â² ÃÎ¼Ã Â½ Ã Â° Ã Â¼-Ã Â° Ã'Ã Âº Ã Â° / page__st__1720 gave full information about my explorations on the subject you're interested temu.Esli this forum will be opened, check my pisma.Seychas forum does not work, and perhaps a moderator will delete all my letters !!!!!

What I shit you not it saw not, and this site is not crappy PR! : (If there is a real Go on here! With photos of

==================

that is what iggogle tells us those 2 just said to each other

;)j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 15, 2010, 03:49:17 PM

@ Slayer

How do you hook up your large coil?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 15, 2010, 03:53:29 PM

here is a GO BUILD IT !

PICTURE!

basic basic ...

ist!

4 12 vdc big batteries being charged from 1 small 3.6 ah 12vdc battery !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 15, 2010, 04:53:32 PM

Quote from: stprue on February 15, 2010, 03:49:17 PM
@ Slayer

How do you A your large coil?

Here is the circuit I have been using.
Notice there is a diode going from the negative side of the capacitor to the positive side of the source battery.
The capacitor has a very big field around it also.So I was just trying to send that back to the source battery also.
I'm still trying differant coils setup and a pancake coil for L2 also works very well.
When collecting the BEMF from L2 coil the light is brighter.
And also when there is a bigger load on L1 the BEMF increases.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 15, 2010, 05:43:42 PM

A no wonder I was getting poor results! I was missing a coil and trying to get it to work using the simple SEC set up with a trigger coil!

::)

Thanks for the clarity slayer.

P.S. Did you seesome of my pics a page back?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 15, 2010, 05:54:23 PM

Quote from: stprue on February 15, 2010, 05:43:42 PM
A no wonder I was getting poor results! I was missing a A and trying to get it to work using the simple SEC set up with a trigger coil!

::)

Thanks for the clarity slayer.

P.S. Did you seesome of my A a page back?

Stprue very nice job with Jonnydarvo's simple SEC.

P.S. Dont forget to do a tap start to start it.
Just connect the resistor to the base then disconnect it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 15, 2010, 07:04:43 PM

I soldered some leads onto this :: http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G2859 (http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G2859) :: Toko coil from goldmine electric and setup a standard joule theif circuit with it. It has 6 leads, two coils, center tapped.

I haven't been getting great results from it - it's stats are essentially unknown, but it does act as a transformer.

I did notice however, when I employ this setup, I can increase the over-all DC voltage gain from the coil.

PS, Upper inductor has more winding than the lower inductor.

edit: diagram was off a bit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 15, 2010, 07:42:46 PM

@ jadaro2600

Quote from: jadaro2600 link=topic=6123.msg228505#msg228505 A=1266278683
I soldered some A onto this :: http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G2859 (http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G2859) :: Toko coil from goldmine electric and setup a standard joule theif circuit with it. It has 6 leads, two coils, center tapped.

I haven't been getting great results from it - it's stats are essentially unknown, but it does act as a transformer.

I did notice however, when I employ this setup, I can increase the over-all DC voltage gain from the coil.

PS, Upper inductor has more winding than the lower inductor.

What happenes if you remove the center tap connection and the two capacitors from the upper coil? I would think this would be a standard JT with a pickup coil then. Does your circuit work better than a standard JT?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 15, 2010, 08:40:52 PM

Quote from: xee2 on February 15, 2010, 07:42:46 PM
@ jadaro2600

What happenes if you remove the center tap connection and the two capacitors from the upper coil? I would think this would be a standard JT with a pickup coil then. Does your circuit work better than a standard JT?

Well, this is a secondary. And yes, it seems to generate more voltage with the setup above than without the center tap. The gains are minimal, but this may have something to do with the capacitance of the capacitors.

It's odd that adding capacitance to the secondary increases the voltage gains.

edit: to explain the peculiarities a bit more, there is a prime capacitance which seems to perform best, very small capacitance values degrade the voltage, and very large ones do this as well. But not having them shows no gains, just as well, adding them at the right capacitance seems to increase voltage, albeit- this is acting like a voltage splitter with respect to the coil as a whole, but since it's center tapped, it's acting in it's own right.

I may try adding some diodes to further the readings and see if one-way flow alters the setup any.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on February 15, 2010, 09:05:42 PM

i got some of those toko coils and the best i could with a jt setup was 80 volts out with certain transistors..
the chilliqueen circuit works better for volts out but it comes with a cost.. more ma's draw

what i did one day once i got bored was rewinded the sec with 36 awg.. that boosted me to 246 volts thru a bridge i didn't put the scope on it

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 15, 2010, 09:11:24 PM

Quote from: kooler on February 15, 2010, 09:05:42 PM
i got some of those toko coils and the best i could with a jt setup was 80 volts out with certain transistors..
the chilliqueen circuit works better for volts out but it comes with a cost.. more ma's draw

what i did one day once i got bored was rewinded the sec with 36 awg.. that boosted me to 246 volts thru a bridge i didn't put the scope on it

robbie

I've been at issue with the circuit you mentioned, my eyes are going, perhaps I'll try it again. I've been having trouble locating printed circuit diagrams ( place is a mess ).

The best voltage I'm getting out of this is 26 Volts, it's drawing about 20Ma not lighting anything though. without the setup I mentioned, it's only getting 22. It's gaining 5 Volts with the capacitors arranged like they are though. Considering the difference, I thought it worth mentioning with regard to the prefabs I've been using.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on February 15, 2010, 09:18:50 PM

do you want me to get my schematics that came with my toko coils and scan and post

let me know

edit i just found your picture

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg227453#msg227453 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg227453#msg227453)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 15, 2010, 11:33:34 PM

the words of my past become the words of your future!

this is my grand father ...

in this video ..

MUCH RESPECT!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oo8N3BagXAc

all because i like to see the blossom then the apple ...

and no we wont leave fur boots out of this script!

: )

thank you !

im simply doing it all agin in real time ..

im growing a TRUTH TREE!

W

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on February 16, 2010, 12:09:07 AM

jadaro
i got my best results with almost 100ma input to get 80 v..
i am working on a rf transmitter to see if i can charge my caps faster
and my next test is using this coil as a input and output..
it seems that a cap charges faster with static charges..
it might be right since they store static charges anyway
more to come..
whats up wit this snow .. jez

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 16, 2010, 01:41:55 AM

a little bit ooo HEAT!

lol

sure free heat and charge my batteries faster why not !

lol

ist!

K

i had to throw you my snow first so as i could give you my heater !

: )

now what happins if i then go NEGITIVE RESISTANCE ... ? does it get cold ? lol

nutter RA HA!

well i hooked it up on the pos but on a diffrent connection and it apears to get cold ... it caused my cap to gain in about .4 volts .. the resistance of the heater core is .3kohm

i swapped out the heater core for a 5k 5watt resistor and i droped down to 12 vdc 1 battery to be recharged and i have used it in the past to HV recharge it ... but it works well

my cap now holds 41 volts of push in it to a 12vdc battery with 5k neg resistance !

cap value is 20 000 uf 50vdc

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on February 16, 2010, 02:18:18 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on February 16, 2010, 01:41:55 AM
a little bit ooo HEAT!

lol

sure free heat and charge my batteries faster why not !

lol

ist!

K

i had to throw you my snow first so as i could give you my heater !

: )

now what happins if i then go NEGITIVE RESISTANCE ... ? does it get cold ? lol

nutter RA HA!

well i hooked it up on the pos but on a diffrent connection and it apears to get cold ... it caused my cap to gain in about .4 volts .. the resistance of the heater core is .3kohm

heat from where?

lol

are you saying your batteries charge faster when they are heated?

lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHr9LqADJ1Q

K

bir!

: )

"Negative resistance is a property of some electric circuits where an increase in the current entering a port results in a decreased voltage across the same port." from the wiki. no mention of it getting cold. lol

nutter U RA!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 16, 2010, 02:43:25 AM

i for got to mention it was a quartz core i think and it was on a 45 deg to the ground ....

: )

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on February 16, 2010, 02:46:47 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on February 16, 2010, 02:43:25 AM
i for got to mention it was a quartz core i think and it was on a 45 deg to the ground ....

: )

ist!

why are you posting a pulse motor in the jt thread? you're in the wrong area... AGAIN.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 16, 2010, 02:55:41 AM

will

it is the same dam thing !

go build 1 then tell me why i post it here !!

H

WILL WILL IT MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER IF I TAKE THE WHEEL AWAY ?

AM I THEN ALLOWD TO POST IT HERE .. ?

LMFAO!

will im starting to think wrapping the chain around the bank machine and yanking it out of the wall didnt work out so well !!

o well

im gonna have to build the magnetic crystal tip for the troopper gun .. and suck the change right out there pockets!

lol

thats not a joke i got everything laying round to make this your reality if i so desire ..... !

H

i was thinking of machineing some stone rings ... maybe make a mini stone henge or 2 lol

: )

now top that RA HA !

never mind the water tuneing method! lol

; )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on February 16, 2010, 03:51:43 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on February 16, 2010, 02:55:41 AM
will

it is the same dam thing !

go build 1 then tell me why i post it here !!

H

WILL WILL IT MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER IF I TAKE THE WHEEL AWAY ?

AM I THEN ALLOWD TO POST IT HERE .. ?

LMFAO!

william,

no it is not!

provide a circuit schematic instead of a fuzzy picture and someone might!!! as it stands, it's about as on topic as your apple blossoms video...

yes, take the wheel away... to a pulse motor thread.

if what remains is a jt circuit, then yes.

::)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 16, 2010, 09:28:47 AM

listen because it is not hooked up as your brain can comprehend it ! it s not a jt ...

ok will

drop your rock ....

its hurting your brain !

what is it doing ... WHAT IS THE SOLE PERPOUS OF A PULSE MOTOR WHAT IS THE SOLE PERPOUS OF A JT?

RIGHT BOTH USE MY KICK!

BECAUSE a pulse motor uses a magnet to switch it off and on it is not a jt !

my god ! any smart ones round thease parts ?

none the less !

lol

my resistance mods work ok ... : ) used it all night ...

ist!

i have a many jt's useing the same circuit!

thank you !

and infact they are my pulse motor units are 1 3055 1 4001 diode 1 1 k pot 1 1007 diode 1 neon ... 1 bifillar coil ...

I DONT CARE SECONDARY OR NOT the only diffrance is the way the wires are hooked up ... a jt is connected both a pos connection in a npn unit and a pulse motor is not ! it is connected 1 pos wire feed ..

the operation of both are the same ..

all you do IS SHOOT SHIT DOWN GO BUILD SOMETHING ...

or ill eat you up !

QUIT BEGGING FOR MY SCEMATICS !

THERE MANY ON THIS SITE ....

GO FIND THEM !

you remind me of the little black crow beggers .. eating my cherrys from my tree ... gonna pull out THE WEATHER CONTROL FOR THEM CROWS!

i bet i remind you of the TREE WITH MANY FRUITS ... ON THE SAME TRUNK!

what was it apple and pear and a few varities of each about 1 tree... ?

: )

little willy bull frog is gonna get his legs eaten!

hear they taste like chicken ... lol
; )

should i tell you bout the WEATHER CONTROL GRAMPA HAD IN HIS ORCHORDS ?

LMFAO ....

something like 3 feet below the ground 9 feet above .. 4 copper pipes tuned to the surroundings ...

pumping sclar! protecting the orchord from hail ....

hummmmmm

never hailed there in 50 years ... since they were installed !

:p

i think it was 150' radious per pump!

hummmm

silly silly humans!

i guess i will leave fur boots children out of this ! i will say they make lovely crystal wands!

: )

after i gave her her rock ... next day her children made me a dimond wand! topped white rock ...

; )

with a few feathers ... lol her mother is a reki master! lol

like i said ill eat you if you keep it up ... BOY!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sirmikey1 on February 16, 2010, 10:14:56 AM

Change the subject, jt,

I ordered from Goldmine today, used paypal. Bought the:

.3volt germanium 2N128 transistors,
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G2299

another breadboard
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G8534

solder helping hands thingy,
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G12810

SCRs, Triacs
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/products.asp?dept=1143

Rectifier Bridges,
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/products.asp?dept=1133

Lidmotor's Darlington mpsa06;
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/departments.asp?dept=1134

neons,
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/products.asp?dept=1351

4meg potentimeter, and a kit of 20 various potentiometers.
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/departments.asp?dept=1110

I'll get the rest from mouser....

Mikey

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 16, 2010, 10:43:13 AM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on February 16, 2010, 03:51:43 AM
william,

no it is not!

provide a circuit schematic instead of a fuzzy picture and someone might!!! as it stands, it's about as on topic as your apple blossoms video...

yes, take the wheel away... to a pulse motor thread.

if what remains is a jt circuit, then yes.

::)

for your info willy!

i never posted that link here clearly you study my every move!

do you suscribe to my youtube ?

lol

william!

i was in moms store the otherday .. saw a mag lol the cover was a ROYAL SALUTE : )

TO INNOVATION ON THE WORLD SCEEN ... ; )

sure i can read between the lines ....

then they did the canada tour...

: )

peace out ...

ist!

willy ... want me to talk about my calculator ... your trying to figure out ... lol

it has 12 stones ... and you ask it a question ... it spits out an answer in real time ...

this is how i find me own !

: )

here is a song as you tube never let my audio through with my video ... : )

FLO RIDER LOW LOW LOW ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VVuMIB2hC0

does that say billy brain?

lol

and here is 1 with walts help lol

G - FORCE jump!

love the fireworks ... at the start ...

tic toc ... : )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QfNvVbdrhg

BTW 4 WILL watch it agin ... READ HIS SHIRT THIS TIME .... ; )

just love the hamster in the gyro ... lol

SHOULD I GIVE IT ANOTHER SPIN .... ?

are ya dizzy yet ?

WILL what are those blurps in his video ... lol those look like pumps ... ; )

kinda looks like rain to the HUMAN EYE... ; )

sure ... i see them for years now ... i just wink my 1 eye and i then can see the fire flys i call them ...

: )

CHECK OUT JUMP LYRICS lol huston we got to jump ship all aboard ? cali is jumping hit the switch on the 64

lmfao

H
64

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on February 16, 2010, 04:05:41 PM

Hi guys with the use of capacitors to a bedini is better for charging batteries?. Any suggestions?
Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 16, 2010, 04:28:58 PM

mine charge BOOST CAPS DARN FAST !

: )

ist!

if i wouldnt have gotten beaten up on the mags gadget deal .. i would have a 12vdc bank of boost caps ..

i would charge car batteries ...

light speed !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 16, 2010, 04:29:25 PM

Hello All,

I have not had a chance to catch up on all the posts from the last year :o however I am back in the lab. And also working on some new fascinating experiments with this great little circuit.

Keep up the good work everyone!

Much Love,

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 16, 2010, 04:31:47 PM

Altrez:

Welcome back man.

I don't envy you trying to catch up on the reading here.

I look forward to seeing your new experiments.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 16, 2010, 04:42:09 PM

welcome back bro ...

how was the journey?

: )

the nice thing in this line of work is you can always pick up right where you left off!

: )

lol

H

someone asked my why green rocks ... i said why sun that the horny one !

lol

it gets really wild when i break out the musical gift cards! : ) lol hehehehehe

or the digital memo recorders with the skip button !!

i crack myself up most days!

W

really nice speeker in them little things ... lol and they run years on a watch battery! : ) think i could ring a crystal with it ?

hummmmmmm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 16, 2010, 06:21:03 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 16, 2010, 04:31:47 PM
Altrez:

Welcome back man.

I don't envy you trying to catch up on the reading here.

I look forward to seeing your new experiments.

Bill

Hey Bill!

Its going to a good week of reading :) How are things going with you? Still living here in ky? Hows your research going?

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 16, 2010, 06:26:49 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on February 16, 2010, 04:42:09 PM
welcome back bro ...

how was the journey?

: )

the nice thing in this line of work is you can always pick up right where you left off!

: )

lol

H

someone asked my why green rocks ... i said why sun that the horny one !

lol

it gets really wild when i break out the musical gift cards! : ) lol hehehehehe

or the digital memo recorders with the skip button !!

i crack myself up most days!

W

really nice speeker in them little things ... lol and they run years on a watch battery! : ) think i could ring a crystal with it ?

hummmmmmm

IST!

The journey sucked bro.. My wife left me for another man and took the kids :'( I almost went crazy and but i have met someone new who loves the idea of OU and free energy so I feel very blessed. just now got to the point that I can pick up where I left off. I see you have been busy anything neat you can throw my way to work on would be a blessing.

Hows things with you?

Much love,

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 16, 2010, 06:33:20 PM

Quote from: altrez on February 16, 2010, 06:26:49 PM
IST!

The journey sucked bro.. My wife left me for another man and took the kids :'( I almost went crazy and but i have met someone new who loves the idea of OU and free energy so I feel very blessed. just now got to the point that I can pick up where I left off. I see you have been busy anything neat you can throw my way to work on would be a blessing.

Hows things with you?

Much love,

-Altrez

yep the crash bro is always hard .. but the recovery ... is like nothing ever seen b4 : )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_fdyA24BdU&feature=related

looks like you found a great place to start ..!

ist!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGPpxH03--Y&feature=related

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 16, 2010, 07:15:29 PM

magic .....

why did the tpus of SM get hot and melt down ? why baling wire ? where is eddy? lol magnetic currents ring a ding a ling ?

: )

; )

ist!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9mCETmHutw&NR=1&feature=fvwp

do you think you could warm some batteries charge them quick ... then cool them fast and drain them ..

sure you can !

did someone say quartz fusion from a 12vdc battery ... i think we CAN SWING THAT!

: )

or i could go about it the old way ... lol and call a lightning bolt! lmfao

its ok if i wear my sheild ... if not ... meet thy sword!

; )

bet ya i could build 1 that runs on a boost cap and heat hot water for your house from a joule theif ...

i could build 10 light years of things for humans but ... y?
you end up with a box of chipped toroides .. when you be nice ... ! AND then a mirco P O S! ant size on spider paper ...

WE GOT ENOUGH LANDFILLS FULL OF THAT CRAP!

SO WE WILL JUST DO IT RIGHT ! : )

BURN SPIDERS AND ANTS!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 16, 2010, 08:05:44 PM

@all

Ok so i have been catching up on my reading an noticed something interesting that I was hopeful that someone might shed some light on.

Posted on this page:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.12540

stprue posted a pic of his AV plug lighting up wireless near what looks to be a CFL driver circuit from EGM is that wireless energy testing? I am not sure? Hows does the plug work? whats the range? And what is needed to do a simple test?

I think I stumbled onto something like that before but not sure how it happened.

Thanks!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sirmikey1 on February 16, 2010, 09:04:54 PM

altrez,

Unlimited lighting, and a few are accomplishing
heat (filament bulbs)....

Watch these videos:
http://www.youtube.com/jonnydavro
http://www.youtube.com/lidmotor
http://www.youtube.com/MRH2O2

MIkey

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 16, 2010, 09:55:42 PM

Hello sirmikey,

I have read about the SEC exciter but cant seem to find a good parts list or schematic? Do you know of any where that I could find this info besides youtube? Something I could print out to experiment with?

Thank you so much!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 16, 2010, 10:04:13 PM

Quote from: altrez on February 16, 2010, 09:55:42 PM
Hello sirmikey,

I have read about the SEC exciter but cant seem to find a good parts list or schematic? Do you know of any where that I could find this info besides youtube? Something I could print out to experiment with?

Thank you so much!

-Altrez

See Jonnydavro's tube videos
and Lidmotor's tube videos
and Dr. Stiffler's website and tube videos.

I hope this helps.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 16, 2010, 10:10:30 PM

TDK CCFL board from Goldmine.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sirmikey1 on February 16, 2010, 10:15:29 PM

Altrez,
Lidmotor and JonnyDavro always put schematics in their videos. Just do a "print screen" to save a copy, or message those guys.
Mikey

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 17, 2010, 07:33:42 AM

Quote from: altrez on February 16, 2010, 09:55:42 PM
Hello sirmikey,

I have read about the SEC exciter but cant seem to find a good parts list or schematic? Do you know of any where that I could find this info besides youtube? Something I could print out to experiment with?

Thank you so much!

-Altrez

All you need to start is a trigger coil and a transistor...oh yah and a couple of pieces of AL foil!

Welcome back ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 17, 2010, 09:34:02 AM

YOU SUCK BILL!

YOUR ASS WILL BE VERRY SORE!

CUZ I JUST KICKED IT !

THERES YOUR WARNING!

HORUS!

SHALL I SPRED 500 VIDEOS ...

OF SHIT YOU WILL NOT EVER FIGURE OUT ...

BILL WHY DO YOU HAVE YOUR ANSWERS ...

SHALL I ASK 322?

DELETE MY SHIT CUZ YOUR STILL RUNNING BACKWARD!

LAUGHING FULL OUT AT YOU FOOL!

PLAY MY HARP AGIN /...

YOU WILL DIE BY MY SWORD

MUST BE TRIBE OF DAN ...

IM PULLING YOUR CARD!

BYE BYE!

WHERE DID MJ GO ?

HUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 17, 2010, 09:47:59 AM

I HAVE BEEN FAR MORE THAN NICE WITH YOUR BULL SHIT BILL !

SO NOW

REST IN PEACE ...

HAD ENOUGH OF YOUR BULL SHIT !

SEE YOU AGIN SOME TIME ! IF YOU EVER LEARN !

814

FAIL!

I GUESS YOU SOLD OUT ... AND ARE PAYED TO SHUT YOUR MOUTH!

DELETE 1 MORE OF MY WORDS ...

YOU WILL NOT LIVE THE DAY TO TELL THE TALE!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 17, 2010, 10:05:13 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 16, 2010, 10:04:13 PM
See Jonnydavro's tube videos
and Lidmotor's tube videos
and Dr. Stiffler's website and tube videos.

I hope this helps.

Bill

BULL SHIT!

BULL SHIT

I CUT YOUR SHIT HORNS OFF!

MY BOYS WILL BE THERE AT YOUR DOOR

GO ASK 322 WHAT G IS FOOL!

CARE TO TALK BOUT NANO BOTS THAT ASSEMBLE CHIPPED TOROIDES!

IN YOUR ANT BRAIN?

I CONTROL GOOD AND BAD!

WHAT PATH WILL YOU WALK BOTH ARE MINE!

: )

you see i keep haveing thease dreams .... teeth are falling out ... BAD ONES ... ... I HAVE LOST MORE BAD TEETH THAN ... I HAVE TEETH IN MY MOUTH !

go see a dream reader! find out what that means ...

i still have all my teeth but 2 wisdomes!

they were removed!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 17, 2010, 10:53:22 AM

here is a video ...

made by a man to whom i have much respect!

: )

you know who you are !

H

THE DREAM MASTER!

TESLA!

WHO AM I ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klQCCbEWhRo&feature=PlayList&p=A78028CCEC0E03E8&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=41

BILL FOR THE RECORD YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHO AND WHAT YOUR ANT BRAIN TOYS WITH !

I HAVE BEEN MORE THAN KIND!

YOU WILL BOW DOWN !

RING OF POWER!

REGARDS!

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8775.0

GO WATCH THE VIDEOS ... LEARN WHO I AM !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 17, 2010, 11:53:52 AM

Quote from: stprue on February 17, 2010, 07:33:42 AM
All you need to start is a trigger coil and a transistor...oh yah and a couple of pieces of AL foil!

Welcome back ;D

Stprue!

In that pic you posted it looks like you where using just that that one circuit from EGM plugged into a 9 volt battery is that true? I have one . Could you please post a full picture? And will any diodes work for the AK test plug?

Thanks!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 17, 2010, 12:17:50 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 16, 2010, 10:04:13 PM
See Jonnydavro's tube videos
and Lidmotor's tube videos
and Dr. Stiffler's website and tube videos.

I hope this helps.

Bill

Thank you Bill!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 17, 2010, 12:27:16 PM

Quote from: xee2 on February 16, 2010, 10:10:30 PM
TDK CCFL board from Goldmine.

Hello xee2!

That is the one I have will that alone generate a filed that a AK plug would pick up? I made one this morning but it did not even flicker. I want to use this idea with my Joule thief setup but want to start really basic :)

Thanks!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 17, 2010, 12:38:32 PM

Quote from: altrez on February 17, 2010, 11:53:52 AM
Stprue!

In that pic you posted it looks like you where using just that that one circuit from EGM plugged into a 9 volt battery is that true? I have one . Could you please post a full picture? And will any diodes work for the AK test plug?

Thanks!

-Altrez

The ccfl driver is hooked to my power supply. It comsumes 200ma at 5v. Out put has been mentioned already. In the other picture the real circuit is hooked to a phone charger and inside the charger is a 1.5v battery. For my AV plug (avramenko plug) I use basic logic diodes. I will post some additional pictures.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 17, 2010, 12:39:32 PM

i have a design for a scalar pump spinner leveotator ...

made by my nano dipped leds!

my sun disc?

maybe ...

i had my nepheu sign his name to HIS WORK ...

: )

lol

i have pictures you will never understand!

H

J how about those audi head lights .... : ) she 's some hot stuff!

ever know LOVE AT FIRST SIGHT ... i sure did when i saw the sparkel in her eyes!

she read my soul as i stood in her company!

i let her ! because ... this is how it is to be !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sirmikey1 on February 17, 2010, 12:56:56 PM

Use 1n4148 Switching Diodes, and you can try touching it to the pan for 1 wire current. Here's a pic below...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 17, 2010, 01:09:57 PM

Quote from: sirmikey1 on February 17, 2010, 12:56:56 PM
Use 1n4148 Switching Diodes, and you can try touching it to the pan for 1 wire current. Here's a pic below...

Very nice! Will the CFL driver circuit alone work if I just attach a pie pan to its HV output?

Thanks!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 17, 2010, 01:30:26 PM

Just power the driver and dont hook anything up to it and you will get your AV plug to work!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 17, 2010, 01:31:55 PM

Can any of you folks give me links or tips on how to use mosfets. I'm having trouble figuring out how to use one like a voltage controlled resistor.

I would use a triac or thyristor but they have some junction issues and tend to go into runaway too easily.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 17, 2010, 01:35:58 PM

Here is a few different set-ups!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 17, 2010, 02:05:46 PM

Quote from: stprue on February 17, 2010, 01:35:58 PM
Here is a few different set-ups!

Wow that's cool. I don't have any small diodes like you are using will 1n1004s or something similar work? I have been using 9 volts on the CFL driver is 5 volts recommended?

Thank you so much for the help!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 17, 2010, 02:07:57 PM

Here is just a short video.I wanted to show that this circuit will charge batteries and still give off light at the same time.
It's running off a cell phone charger that uses one AA battery to bump it up to 5.5v.
It's lighting the 40 led's and a 20w cfl and also charging ten other AA batteries.

It ran for 4.5 hours before the AA in the cell phone charger died but it charged the other batteries up 13.35 v
After rest the batteries were 13v and the cell phone charger stops working at 1v.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-WVU6S704A

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 17, 2010, 02:10:38 PM

@all

You got to see this !!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8G3MrxueODM&feature=player_embedded

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 17, 2010, 02:12:44 PM

Quote from: slayer007 on February 17, 2010, 02:07:57 PM
Here is just a short video.I wanted to show that this circuit will charge batteries and still give off light at the same time.
It's running off a cell phone charger that uses one AA battery to bump it up to 5.5v.
It's lighting the 40 led's and a 20w cfl and also charging ten other AA batteries.

It ran for 4.5 hours before the AA in the cell phone charger died but it charged the other batteries up 13.35 v
After rest the batteries were 13v and the cell phone charger stops working at 1v.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-WVU6S704A

Nice.
Thanks for the rundown time too.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 17, 2010, 02:16:08 PM

Quote from: slayer007 on February 17, 2010, 02:07:57 PM
Here is just a short video.I wanted to show that this circuit will charge batteries and still give off light at the same time.
It's running off a cell phone charger that uses one AA battery to bump it up to 5.5v.
It's lighting the 40 led's and a 20w cfl and also charging ten other AA batteries.

It ran for 4.5 hours before the AA in the cell phone charger died but it charged the other batteries up 13.35 v
After rest the batteries were 13v and the cell phone charger stops working at 1v.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-WVU6S704A

Nice work slayer007! I have been charging batterys with my Joule Thief but it will only charge 1 at a time. i can run leds and a small motor at the same time as well.

Have you did any tests to see if your charged battery's are experiencing empty voltage? I know my battery's will charge to a full 1.33 volts but not last as long as if I used my wall charger but yet they get the same voltage.

Keep up the great work!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 17, 2010, 02:24:52 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 17, 2010, 02:10:38 PM
@all

You got to see this !!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8G3MrxueODM&feature=player_embedded

Mark

Cools, looks like bloch-wall micro-variations causing plane shifting in the pickup. Be nice to get a better diagram.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 17, 2010, 02:32:48 PM

Quote from: altrez on February 17, 2010, 02:16:08 PM
Nice work slayer007! I have been charging batterys with my Joule Thief but it will only charge 1 at a time. i can run A and a small motor at the same time as well.

Have you did any tests to see if your charged battery's are experiencing empty voltage? I know my battery's will charge to a full 1.33 volts but not last as long as if I used my wall charger but yet they get the same voltage.

Keep up the great work!

-Altrez

Yes and No lol.
There was two bad batteries in with the 10 that will not hold a charge.But there over 3 years old and they don't hold a good charge with a conventional charger.
So they were replaced with newer rechargeable batteries today.
I also bought 2 small 6v sla batteries today.I would like to run it off a 6v battery and charge the other two batteries while running the led's.
you can find the circuit for this a couple pages back.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 17, 2010, 02:39:51 PM

@ Mk1

Quote from: Mk1 on February 17, 2010, 02:10:38 PM
You got to see this !!!
Mark

Thanks. Excellent demonstration. I am not sure what is happening, but the magnet deffinitely helps.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 17, 2010, 02:54:28 PM

Quote from: xee2 on February 17, 2010, 02:39:51 PM
@ Mk1

Thanks. Excellent demonstration. I am not sure what is happening, but the magnet definitely helps.

It seems to work like the orbo , and the solid state version , to some extent the MEG , i think the basically the theory suggest that the toroid and its coil disrupt the magnetic form the magnet , so the pickup coil is under stress from the magnet at all time except when the toroid is triggered , so the change in the magnetic strength induces voltage in the pickup coil .

I hope my explanation helps .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 17, 2010, 03:03:57 PM

Quote from: altrez on February 17, 2010, 02:05:46 PM
Wow that's cool. I don't have any small diodes like you are using will 1n1004s or something similar work? I have been using 9 volts on the CFL driver is 5 volts recommended?

Thank you so much for the help!

-Altrez

Mine says 5 v's so thats what I put in but you can put in a little more or less!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 17, 2010, 03:09:53 PM

Fantastic vid slayer! you should make a switching circuit to see how long it will run for and also to see if the charge going into the batteries is static or not!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: mscoffman on February 17, 2010, 03:40:20 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on February 17, 2010, 01:31:55 PM
Can any of you folks give me links or tips on how to use mosfets. I'm having trouble figuring out how to use one like a voltage controlled resistor.

I would use a triac or thyristor but they have some junction issues and tend to go into runaway too easily.

---
Triac and thyristors and SCR's are good for higher voltage and high current
loads but their input energy needs to be AC because their *load* voltage
has to go to zero volts for them to turn off. In other words they are
triggered on and wait to be cut off and do not gate on and off. They are an
excellent choice for high power and low frequency AC where applicable.
They don't particularly run away except, where they are often used,
they are run at extremely high power levels.
---
Bipolar transistors are current gain devices. Their transfer equation is:

Ic=B*Ib

where Ic=collector current, B=transistor Beta spec, Ib=base current
Beta (gain) is between 20 for power transistors and 100 -> 200 for
2N2222 sized transistors. Current through the transistor happens
when the base is positive with respect to the emitter for NPN's
and current flows out of the base from the emitter for PNP's
---
Mosfet transistors are voltage gain devices. Their transfer equation is:

Es = A*Eg

Where Es=Source Voltage; A = mosfet gain; Eg=Gate Voltage
The suprising thing is A gain may easily be 10^6, a million or
more and very little or no gate current is required to turn them on.
So they are excellent for use as digital switches. Which is how
you usually see them used. They have packages available that
parallel many silicon devices that can bring their on-resistance
down to .01 ohms!
---
One problem is when they are used to switch voltages at five
volts or below the source to drain voltage the gate wants
to see is a volt or two above the source voltage for the
transistor to fully saturate on! In this case it is recommended
to use a mosfet driver IC that can generate the required gate
voltage to fully saturate the mosfet transistor!
---
So how do you use them linearly? You have to use "negative
feedback", where a negative voltage is summed with the
positive gate voltage to actively bias them into the middle
of their range. Summed means using an inverting amplifier
and summing resistors.

The other thing you can do is to use them as high frequency
switches and use PWM pulse width modulation or PPM pulse
proportional modulation to control voltage integrated on
a capacitor. This can form the basis of a switching amplifier
where the output mosfets switch on/off at frequencies much
above the frequencies being amplified. These switching type
amplifiers can be made highly energy efficient in comparison
to the bias method that "wastes" a lot of power in the transistor.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 17, 2010, 03:47:39 PM

: )

LOOK AT MY FAMILY AND THE SONGS THEY SING FROM THERE HEARTS!

: )

DO YOU KNOW HOW GOOD THIS MAKES ME FEEL!

: )

WILLIAM

am i your anti christ ? answer no .... you are mine ! i am you !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMxqiNII6KU&feature=fvw

Bob Taylor - Deja-Vu ( Radio Version By Play & Win )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 17, 2010, 03:57:01 PM

Here is my recent vid! I have sense improved the circuit so that I don't need to touch it and in fact I have added a couple of LEDs on an additional av plug and I can reduce the ma draw by adding LED's!

So more LED's= less MA draw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTI-bfXFGzk

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 17, 2010, 05:42:52 PM

Quote from: mscoffman on February 17, 2010, 03:40:20 PM
---
:S:MarkSCoffman

Thankyou sir, excellent advise.

I also found a few devices called VCR, which do exactly that. The voltage controlled resistor actually has a pinout like a transistor; I think I may investigate these some more.

My issue is, having very low voltages to deal with. Most of the transistors don't fully cut on with just 1.2 volts, there's still a good bit of resistance in the device. I also noticed, when testing my transistors, that the lower the base voltage ( or resistance to base ) the more resistance across the C-E junction ...then this decreased as base resistance increased, up unto a point when it started increasing again. The strange thing was that it dipped.

I'll have to post a table or something later. I'll also have to test multiple transistors to see if this is phenomenal or just a fried transistor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 17, 2010, 07:14:21 PM

i made a video 600 pages of scmatices and many mosfet units!

: )

MY WORK ...

YOU CANT TOUCH IT !

W

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 17, 2010, 08:02:58 PM

Has anyone seen this type of tube light? An led tube light?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvAOIkOwo5o (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvAOIkOwo5o)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on February 17, 2010, 08:09:27 PM

bill..
this place some.. but i have seen cheaper at a wind generator website somewere

http://www.ledbulb.com/LED-Linear-Tube-Bulbs-s/33.htm (http://www.ledbulb.com/LED-Linear-Tube-Bulbs-s/33.htm)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 17, 2010, 08:44:51 PM

@stprue

It worked! Now is there anyway of increasing the range? I am only getting about 1 inch away from the CFL driver and the led is very low brightness?

Thank you!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 17, 2010, 09:28:31 PM

Quote from: kooler on February 17, 2010, 08:09:27 PM
bill..
this place some.. but i have seen cheaper at a wind generator website somewere

http://www.ledbulb.com/LED-Linear-Tube-Bulbs-s/33.htm (http://www.ledbulb.com/LED-Linear-Tube-Bulbs-s/33.htm)

Kooler:

Thank you. I have never heard of these before. I'll bet we can light them up pretty bright with the JT circuit. Probably even full brightness!

Better than the mercury tubes I have been playing with. A little pricey though but like you said, there may be better sources and, the price will come down eventually anyway.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 18, 2010, 06:50:55 AM

Quote from: altrez on February 17, 2010, 08:44:51 PM
@stprue

It worked! Now is there anyway of increasing the range? I am only getting about 1 inch away from the CFL driver and the led is very low brightness?

Thank you!

-Altrez

I used the ccfl driver just to test the AV plug because I knew that the driver radiates energy in the near vicinity of the circuit so I did not test further with it! Try using 2 pieces of AL foil 1 for the - output and 1 for the + output. keep them away from eachother and test with your AV plug. also try a hooking the driver up to some inductors/coils.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 18, 2010, 02:14:59 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on February 18, 2010, 09:42:19 AM
there is no more give ...
it is all TAKE BACK ALL MY WORK AND MY PLANET!

DONT LIKE IT ...
YOU WILL CEASE TO BE!

what do i know ?

lol

W

sick of stupid humans!

: )

tic toc!

my FAMILY IS RETURNING AND AWAKENING
all elese are left to learn ...
floating on a room dissipear in the sky!
night night bye bye !

GROW UP ... or pass! : )

i will always be !
sure i have another 500 drawings ... and 1000 rings ...

@ the little boy GADGET ...

MY STORM GUN IS ON YOUR FOR HEAD!
AND I GOT A GREEN TO FIRE IT !
dont get me on the willis story ... the truth will come out bout willis and gadget !

: )

i bet your pissing your pants now boy and wishing you never ripped me on the shipping ..

THE US IS UNDER QUARENTEEN!
if your country dont get in gear!

your power will be yanked from you ...
in a wink of my eye!

only 1 country .. on your side in the entire planet!
rest are on mine!

the all americain dream 15 for free...

oooo i dont think so !

: )

i will ordor NO MATERIALS FROM THE US!

!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AvAYyu49_s&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AvAYyu49_s&feature=related)

g10 tube
nano quartz
magnitte !
presure ...

rubb then bang!

IST:

Are you really asking to be placed on read only?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on February 18, 2010, 02:26:14 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on February 18, 2010, 02:18:43 PM
ARE YOU ASKING ME TO YANK YOUR TEETH OUT ?

I CAN SWING IT !

H

classic ist... ::)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 18, 2010, 02:44:03 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on February 18, 2010, 02:18:43 PM
ARE YOU ASKING ME TO YANK YOUR TEETH OUT ?

I CAN SWING IT !

H

I'll take that as a yes.
That is a real shame. It is not like you were not warned about 100 times.

Bill

***EDIT***

I still think that you have a lot to offer if you would just settle down. Please, can you do that? Just remain on topic is all that is asked. The choice is yours.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 18, 2010, 03:11:00 PM

In this video I just wanted to show that size does matter. And also show how you can collect power from the cell phone charger. Also the importance of collecting the BEMF from the L2 coil. When collecting the BEMF the circuit will run more efficient.

Sorry Bill this might not really belong here.If you want me to I'll start a new thread.

But here is the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRJeHzFNqP0

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 18, 2010, 04:34:51 PM

let me ask how is any of it off topic ...

it is only off topic as you do not understand ...

and if you do your trying to cover it up !

w

bill have you ever shoot lightning from your hands alone ?

i have not yet ...

but i will

i wont need a silly gun to do it eather ....

; )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 18, 2010, 04:47:10 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on February 18, 2010, 04:34:51 PM
let me ask how is any of it A ...

it is only off topic as you do not understand ...

and if you do your trying to cover it up !

w

bill have you ever shoot lightning from your hands alone ?

i have not yet ...

but i will

i wont need a silly gun to do it eather ....

; )

IST you really should take your MED'S defore you post in the forums.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 18, 2010, 05:13:39 PM

Another wasted page :(

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 18, 2010, 05:59:31 PM

@ALL

I just finish testing my micro tpjt i get 20 volts from 11 turn pickup coil on the inside and 27 volts from 11 turns pickup coil on the out side.

There is also a picture of one bulb on a battery and one bulb on the pickup coil connected in parallel , it seems to be brighter in the secondary.

Mark

Ist has no place here ... ignore is a blessing

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 18, 2010, 06:19:30 PM

Very cool Mk1 what is the input to output for the ma pull?

:o

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 18, 2010, 06:27:58 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 18, 2010, 05:59:31 PM
@ALL

I just finish testing my micro tpjt i get 20 volts from 11 turn pickup coil on the inside and 27 volts from 11 turns pickup coil on the out side.

There is also a picture of one bulb on a battery and one bulb on the pickup coil connected in parallel , it seems to be brighter in the secondary.

Mark

Ist has no place here ... ignore is a blessing

Wow! Amazing. Yeh, I know I said that before, but it is still true. Thanks for posting your results.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 18, 2010, 06:45:32 PM

@all

I am looking for a LED bulb that works with the JT. I found one at walmart and its bright but it pulls 500ma and only has 12 leds?! Anyone know of a good bright one that might pull less then 100?

Thanks!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 18, 2010, 09:00:59 PM

Wow MK1,
This is really cool...pretty too!

Quote from: altrez on February 18, 2010, 06:45:32 PM
@all

I am looking for a LED bulb that works with the JT. I found one at walmart and its bright but it pulls 500ma and only has 12 leds?! Anyone know of a good bright one that might pull less then 100?

Thanks!

-Altrez

Hi Altrez,
First welcome back!

I have a 20 leds bulb that I get from wallmart made by Lights of America which probably draws 100mA, but 100mA at 1.2v is very little power, especially since this bulb was made for utilities power which is 110v etc.
20leds in series is a lot of light and it is a lot of light for 100mA running from the secondary of a jtc.
If you watch some of my videos you will see how I have used this.
I know you are way behind, but I am about to be. When I return in 2 weeks you and MK1 and kooler and omg well there is no sense in stressing...
here is one I made to show how I was putting this into a bulb but modifying it first.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hc2B2rzthoA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hc2B2rzthoA)

Then
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gj7IFCXw9Q (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gj7IFCXw9Q)
which lights 3 of these UNmodified from a secondary, and it has a really big toroid.

I have even made the movie for the one that shows my jtpu (joule thief power unit, not jeanna's tpu ;D )
Which is a stand alone circuit in a box with a commercial on off switch and a regular plug. You can plug a lamp into this and light an unmodified 20 leds bulb in that lamp. And, you can even add another lamp because both will go on with the switch and plug. I posted some stills when I first made it, and my camera was doing terrible things the day I tried to make the tube video so it is not up yet.

You will need around 35-=400spiky volts to do this. I made it with the single AAA and it works well, but to read by the lamp, I am using 2 AA NiMH at 2.84v.

So, the short answer is yes.
Doesn't that make you smile?
:D,
It does me,
I will re-post 2 pix of this.
Notice the snaggle of wires which are plugging into this 'jtpu'

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 18, 2010, 09:02:37 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 18, 2010, 05:59:31 PM
@ALL

I just finish testing my micro tpjt i get 20 volts from 11 turn pickup coil on the inside and 27 volts from 11 turns pickup coil on the out side.

There is also a picture of one bulb on a battery and one bulb on the pickup coil connected in parallel , it seems to be brighter in the secondary.

Mark

Ist has no place here ... ignore is a blessing

Could you try something - it may seem complicated, but if you could place a neomag inside that coil in such a way as to allow it to 'bounce' ..for instance, on a rubber band, or glued to some stretched latex, I think the micro variations may boost voltage.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on February 18, 2010, 11:01:09 PM

@all
these are cheap looking and feeling.. but are just as good as my 200$ multimeter but they are NOT auto range.. they are very nice and small with large display for only 8.00 $

http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G17407 (http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G17407)

plus you get a transistor tester and a 3v modified sine wave output setting also..

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 18, 2010, 11:22:47 PM

@all
RESULTS ARE IN for my 21 Gell Cell Battery JOULE THIEF Charge Experiment.

For 1 week I have had my Hazens Joule Thief setup trying to recondition 21 x 12v Gell cells.
Only a few of the cells were the same capacity, some were very flatt, some had a charge in them.

At start of test
Total Battery Series Voltage, all 21 Batteries = 177.0 volts
After 1 day on Joule thief = 189.29 volts
After 1 week on Joule Thief = 188.27volts

Off JT charger for 1 hour, voltage dropped to = 182.40 volts
It lost 5.87 volts and I would expect it to be still falling.

2N3055
BATT Orig V 1week Temp Result Remarks
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 4.91v 6.27v 30.0 gain 1.37v
2 2.88v 3.47v 35.6 gain .59v
3 11.80v 11.88v 37.2 gain .08v
4 2.00v 1.99v 38.8 loss .01v
5 8.48v 5.03v 40.5 loss 3.45v
6 5.20v 9.82v 41.4 gain 4.62v
7 11.20v 1.06v 42.3 loss 10.14v
8 10.86v 10.77v 31.8 loss 0.09v
9 12.73v 12.73v 32.6 ---- 0.00v
10 6.00v 8.97v 36.4 gain 2.97v
11 6.87v 5.81v 40.0 loss 1.06v
12 12.79v 10.66v 41.4 loss 2.13v Temp meter batt died
13 8.12v 11.63v gain 3.51v
14 11.41v 12.83v gain 1.41v
15 9.05v 9.78v gain 0.73v
16 7.48v 5.14v loss 2.31v
17 9.74v 11.10v gain 1.36v
18 12.93v 11.65v loss 1.28v
19 12.72v 12.89v gain 0.17v
20 11.68v 13.02v gain 1.34v
21 10.48v 11.78v gain 1.30v
-----------------------------------------------------------

During the week the charge current to 21 Batt Bank altered from 27Ma to 39Ma

I was charging the 1.2v Nicad D cell from my adjustable power supply
from anywhere between .48amp and .70amp
It appears it took 21ma to 31ma to run the JT under this load.

It appears some batteries gained a charge, some clearly did not, while others lost charge.

This could be because a higher rateing battery will poor some charge back into a smaller capacity battery.
But I saw smaller batteries keep or gain charge.

Anyway this was a very interresting experiment.

The question which has been asked for awhile is, will a Joule Thief be able to chearg a battery?
I think the answer is "YES", but, more work will be needed to be done.

One "key" to doing this successfully is to get the ration output correct between the Joule Thief and the "load"
A single neon lamp will crowbar the JT output so much, it creates heat in the 2N3055 transistor.
The same effect occurs if you don't have enough batteries in series with the JT output.

The answer to using a JT as a battery charger would be ,
Wind fewer secondary turns of thin wire, but wind a number of parallel wires of a shorter length as the secondary.

My Joule Thief output Open Circuit V = 630volts.
So secondary 80Turns + 80turns = 160turns
Output when loaded with 21 Gell Cells = 212v
So divided 630v by 21 batts = 30turns of parallel wire or to charge 1 single battery wind just 1 really thick secondary.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 18, 2010, 11:27:38 PM

Jim:

Thanks for posting your results. That is great!

Also, thanks for the magazines and the transistors and the diodes. I will try to put them to good use.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 18, 2010, 11:47:45 PM

@jim,
Thanks for this thorough report.

I have been reading a fairly long thread at the energetic forum about the bedini sg which like this one has extra sub threads within it.

Many times in the first 8 pages (as far as I have read) there is the reference to john's telling everybody that batteries must be cycled around 20 -30 times by this method, to be able to use this method, but when this long period is over the battery is better than it was ever designed to be.
I guess the process he called "reconditioning" must mean "rebuilding from the chemistry into charge carriers".

So, I bet if you were to discharge this bank of the good ones and recharge them 12 hours each recharge time for 20 times you will be in the ball park to compare with bedini.
I am so glad you had these positive results.

I am thrilled about this even though I am very discouraged by my one Nicad.
After 6 cycles it goes down to 1.03v which is good because it must be breaking the crystals that were holding it at 1.23v
But it is not holding the 1.36v charge it appears to have after 12 hours for any time at all.
It goes down each day.
It is even less than ever, My hope is that this is exactly what needs to happen before it gets recharging the bedini way ie not through battery chemistry.

Your information is excellent.

thank you.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 18, 2010, 11:50:10 PM

@ Bill,

Thank you, this is the longest test I have ever done with a Joule thief, I'm pleased I did it.

Nice to know your package arrived safe and sound too.

jim

Attatchment Help needed, I'm stumped.

I tried sending the 1st NS jpg series as attatchment from mysef to myself, it worked.
But I still cannot attatch jpgs and post here on the forums, has anyone got any ideas please?

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 19, 2010, 12:00:53 AM

@ Jeanna,

Thank you for those kind remarks about my JT charging experiment.
I will get back into it directly after the weekend.

Quote from: jeanna on February 18, 2010, 11:47:45 PM
@jim,
Thanks for this thorough report.

I have been reading a fairly long thread at the energetic forum about the bedini sg which like this one has extra sub threads within it.

Many times in the first 8 pages (as far as I have read) there is the reference to john's telling everybody that batteries must be cycled around 20 -30 times by this method, to be able to use this method, but when this long period is over the battery is better than it was ever designed to be.
I guess the process he called "reconditioning" must mean "rebuilding from the chemistry into charge carriers".

So, I bet if you were to discharge this bank of the good ones and recharge them 12 hours each recharge time for 20 times you will be in the ball park to compare with bedini.
I am so glad you had these positive results.

I am thrilled about this even though I am very discouraged by my one Nicad.
After 6 cycles it goes down to 1.03v which is good because it must be breaking the crystals that were holding it at 1.23v
But it is not holding the 1.36v charge it appears to have after 12 hours for any time at all.
It goes down each day.
It is even less than ever, My hope is that this is exactly what needs to happen before it gets recharging the bedini way ie not through battery chemistry.

Your information is excellent.

thank you.

jeanna

Thanks for the Bedini info, I will check that out also later on.

I will make a special discharge 240v lamp setup and do the whole lot in one go.

Right oh, throw a complete short accross that Nicad cell for 1 second, if it gets hot, its working ok.
Then do it again for 5 seconds, then do it again for 10 seconds.
If it gets toooo hot to hold, put it aside a while and let it cool down.

You got to break it's memory effect.

If it looses its charge over 24 hours, you still got dendrites inside it.

Have you got the http address for the above Bedini report please.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on February 19, 2010, 12:35:35 AM

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/364-bedini-sg.html (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/364-bedini-sg.html)
I am getting that the relaxation or load part of the cycle is as important as the charging with spikes is.

Quote from: electricme on February 19, 2010, 12:00:53 AM
@ Jeanna,

Right oh, throw a complete short accross that Nicad cell for 1 second, if it gets hot, its working ok.
Then do it again for 5 seconds, then do it again for 10 seconds.
If it gets toooo hot to hold, put it aside a while and let it cool down.

You got to break it's memory effect.

If it looses its charge over 24 hours, you still got dendrites inside it.

Well, I am hoping I am working with a different animal from what you are describing.
The dendrites seem to have broken with the 6 cycles of spikes. It can now go way below the stuck spot of 1.23v.

But now, I need to keep my chin up as I cycle 14 more times before the load/work will amount to anything. Hopefully it will on a Nicad.

I am under the impression that if I were to recharge this the normal way it might be fair to middling ok, but if I keep cycling and only use the spikes, it will be like no other Nicad.
There is so little to do with this I am planning to take it camping with me and charge and load it once every 12 hours.
I will still be at it when I return, but this is boring stuff.
I certainly do not have to think about it.

Enjoy that thread,
(reading it makes me feel lucky that I started with the joule thief. It is so easy to get the spikes. The bedini motor is complicated and all they are doing so far -10 pages now- is recharging using spikes.)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 19, 2010, 12:52:58 AM

Jeanna:

Spikes as in the ones from my EER that charge up my B-cap? I am starting to think that these spikes are what we seek. I credit John Bedini with recognizing that these spikes can be made to do usable work.

Isn't it sort of funny that all of this is related?

@ Slayer:

Please feel free to share whatever work that you have here. As I just stated above, it is all related to what we are trying to do here. Many people have learned from your videos of your experiments, including myself. So, unless you hear different, post away.

And thank you for your work.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 19, 2010, 01:15:22 AM

here is my new peice of news.... : )

i guess i didnt know !

lol

dads grand father mothers side ... was an engineer on the worlds first sub!

he tought at mc master in hamilton worked for westing house ....

second ... i shook the mans hand .. that built the first portable x ray machine !

well !

i probally tripped over the damm thing in the past ... had no idea!

lol

: )

glad your here jim !

now i guess i will beguin to build a SIMPLE WORKING TPU OF HIGH OUTPUT!

FROM GOLDMINES!

ist!

names W Young and J Burke ... beleave it or not ... both worked on the submerine ! and knew each other .. lol

i never met william but i met j and c : )

and that is where that story ends ! ; )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 19, 2010, 01:27:30 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 19, 2010, 12:52:58 AM
Jeanna:

Spikes as in the ones from my EER that charge up my B-cap? I am starting to think that these spikes are what we seek. I credit John Bedini with recognizing that these spikes can be made to do usable work.

Isn't it sort of funny that all of this is related?

@ Slayer:

Please feel free to share whatever work that you have here. As I just stated above, it is all related to what we are trying to do here. Many people have learned from your videos of your experiments, including myself. So, unless you hear different, post away.

And thank you for your work.

Bill

i fully agree slayer!

you do wonderful work !

: )

im sorry i dont say it enough ...

i allways enjoy .. all you have done !

much respect indeed

w

if a freq genny is used in a 1 wire coil ... you can also draw from the 9v battery to lite 100w bulbs...

yes WILLY! the bulb will burn your hand! it gets hot!

light ing and thunder!

: )

jonny ... hes more than in my door ! : )

btw it will lite much brighter with 2 9vdc batteries ... supplying 18vdc... with 1 coil ...

and if you add THUNDER FEEDBACK ... 90 DEG ... and had a collector about the same core ... and a cap or 2 ... probally run on a aa : )

bill i hope some got the chance to read my words b4 you threw them out ! : (

if not o well this is how it was ment to be ... or it would not be how it is ...

its like H play video.. K pause video ... : )

RYAN J IS L LOL AND YOUR RIGHT IT WAS A BIT OVERKILL!

JUST ME !

LOL 3 movies RYAN ... WE MAKEING A TRILOGY ? LOL

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 19, 2010, 10:22:02 AM

Thanks Guys.

Here is the circuit I used in my last video.
It will run with a 1.5v up to 6v with the coil configuration.

My next coil will 6" diameter and I'll see if I get better results.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 19, 2010, 12:15:02 PM

Quote from: jeanna on February 18, 2010, 09:00:59 PM
Wow MK1,
This is really cool...pretty too!

Hi Altrez,
First welcome back!

I have a 20 leds bulb that I get from wallmart made by Lights of America which probably draws 100mA, but 100mA at 1.2v is very little power, especially since this bulb was made for utilities power which is 110v etc.
20leds in series is a lot of light and it is a lot of light for 100mA running from the secondary of a jtc.
If you watch some of my videos you will see how I have used this.
I know you are way behind, but I am about to be. When I return in 2 weeks you and MK1 and kooler and omg well there is no sense in stressing...
here is one I made to show how I was putting this into a bulb but modifying it first.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hc2B2rzthoA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hc2B2rzthoA)

Then
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gj7IFCXw9Q (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gj7IFCXw9Q)
which lights 3 of these UNmodified from a secondary, and it has a really big toroid.

I have even made the movie for the one that shows my jtpu (joule thief power unit, not jeanna's tpu ;D )
Which is a stand alone circuit in a box with a commercial on off switch and a regular plug. You can plug a lamp into this and light an unmodified 20 leds bulb in that lamp. And, you can even add another lamp because both will go on with the switch and plug. I posted some stills when I first made it, and my camera was doing terrible things the day I tried to make the tube video so it is not up yet.

You will need around 35-=400spiky volts to do this. I made it with the single AAA and it works well, but to read by the lamp, I am using 2 AA NiMH at 2.84v.

So, the short answer is yes.
Doesn't that make you smile?
:D,
It does me,
I will re-post 2 pix of this.
Notice the snaggle of wires which are plugging into this 'jtpu'

jeanna

Hello jeanna :)

Thanks for the pics and the info for the bulb. looks like your work is coming along very well.

Thank you and take care,

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: zhak on February 19, 2010, 01:40:27 PM

All greetings
Look at my results in the creation of JT. Was used Ferit teroid and 300, 13, 3 loop of wire, a transistor n3055, 10 ohm resistor, the lamp LED (lamp LED, I could not make out, assign the as-is) Vito JDRLED-2.2W/WH/E27/220V, so get results:
helped me all those who work with this forum and your video :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 19, 2010, 02:24:06 PM

Some more tests.

Pic 1 Shows 2 ferrites wound together sitting over the transmitter

Pic 2 Shows a small led lit off of this confirming some limited current through a bridge rectifier

Pic 3 Shows my sniffer AV probe lighting off a power inductor...as expected

Pic 4 Shows the sniffer probe lighting off ferrite (the absolut was for a different test hehe)

I have seen that depending on the setup you can easily light more LEDs without drawing ma's!!!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 19, 2010, 02:57:26 PM

Quote from: stprue on February 19, 2010, 02:24:06 PM
Some more tests.

Pic 1 Shows 2 ferrites wound together sitting over the transmitter

Pic 2 Shows a small led lit off of this confirming some limited current through a bridge rectifier

Pic 3 Shows my sniffer AV probe lighting off a power inductor...as expected

Pic 4 Shows the sniffer probe lighting off ferrite (the absolut was for a different test hehe)

I have seen that depending on the setup you can easily light more LEDs without drawing ma's!!!!!

Very nice! great work! What type of LEDs are you using? Where did you get the big toroids? Whats your current draw how long are you testing? Whats your receiver circuit look like?

Very cool,

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 19, 2010, 03:13:58 PM

Using kooler circuit with TDK board gives very nice bright filament bulb.

video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTprXlK9BrY

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 19, 2010, 03:14:53 PM

WOW that's a lot of questions altrez ;D

I'm uploading a video now which will answer some questions and I will take picture of this very complicated circuit.

1 4KV trigger coil (goldmine)
1 2N3904 Transistor (where ever)
some wire

The red wire (BASE) goes to something metal ie a pan AL foil...any
The wire coming off the top of the trigger coil is your out put and that goes to something else metal.
You adjust the ma draw by moving the base metal object away from the output melat object.

Oh yah I forgot to start this thing up you have to touch the base metal object to the output metal object

;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 19, 2010, 03:24:20 PM

NEW VID

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gcoti7FrVK0

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 19, 2010, 03:28:13 PM

Quote from: stprue on February 19, 2010, 03:14:53 PM
WOW that's a lot of questions altrez ;D

I'm uploading a video now which will answer some questions and I will take picture of this very complicated circuit.

1 4KV trigger coil (goldmine)
1 2N3904 Transistor (where ever)
some wire

The red wire (BASE) goes to something metal ie a pan AL foil...any
The wire coming off the top of the trigger coil is your out put and that goes to something else metal.
You adjust the ma draw by moving the base metal object away from the output melat object.

Oh yah I forgot to start this thing up you have to touch the base metal object to the output metal object

;)

hehe cool! How many pins on the bottom of that trigger coil? And how are they hooked up? Can you post a pic of that please? How much current do you pull on the receiving end?

Whats the distance? Can you run a second JT from the wireless receiver? How many receivers can pull from the transmitter?

Thank you ;)

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 19, 2010, 03:31:13 PM

OK this is the test I really wanted to do and I'm sorry it doesn't show you much! I have hooked up my AV sniffer probe to another simple sec circuit and I can pull light off the second circuit without drawing any more voltage or ma on the first circuit!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on February 19, 2010, 03:35:07 PM

Quote from: slayer007 on February 19, 2010, 10:22:02 AM
Thanks Guys.

Here is the circuit I used in my last video.
It will run with a 1.5v up to 6v with the coil configuration.

My next coil will 6" diameter and I'll see if I get better results.

Deleted comment... irreverent query

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 19, 2010, 03:42:44 PM

Quote from: crowclaw on February 19, 2010, 03:35:07 PM
Deleted comment... irreverent query

The transistors are NPN transistors.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 19, 2010, 03:43:50 PM

Quote from: altrez on February 19, 2010, 03:28:13 PM
hehe cool! How many pins on the bottom of that trigger coil? And how are they hooked up? Can you post a pic of that please? How much current do you pull on the receiving end?

Whats the distance? Can you run a second JT from the wireless receiver? How many receivers can pull from the transmitter?

Thank you ;)

-Altrez

There are 4 pin on the trigger coil you can see in the picture the one that isnt being used. One one led you can see that doesnt look like its being used is goin to the + rail.

I have not tried a JT yet. (This circuit is not a JT it is similar....kind of)

Not sure how many or distance yet I have just started playing with this circuit.

My vid shows what I was looking for in this circuit ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 19, 2010, 03:45:11 PM

Hello Slayer :)

Your last vid was great. There's real power there!!! Very nice

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 19, 2010, 03:47:06 PM

Quote from: stprue on February 19, 2010, 03:31:13 PM
OK this is the test I really wanted to do and I'm sorry it doesn't show you much! I have hooked up my AV sniffer probe to another simple sec circuit and I can pull light off the second circuit without drawing any more voltage or ma on the first circuit!

How is the first circuit hooked up? I see what you are doing now, you have two sec circuits one you are powering. One is wireless. I just don't know how to power the first one can you take a pic please :)

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 19, 2010, 03:54:19 PM

The first one is powered by my power supply and the +- of the second one are hooked up the same as the first. Most people use a phone charger that takes a 1.5 v battery and pumps it up to 5.5v. I use my power supply because its adjustable.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on February 19, 2010, 03:57:03 PM

Quote from: stprue on February 19, 2010, 03:45:11 PM
Hello Slayer :)

Your last vid was great. There's real power there!!! Very nice

Thank you Stprue.

The circuit for it with the coil specs is on page 845.

I just seen your video also very impressive.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 19, 2010, 03:59:09 PM

Quote from: stprue on February 19, 2010, 03:43:50 PM

There are 4 pin on the trigger coil you can see in the picture the one that isnt being used. One one led you can see that doesnt look like its being used is goin to the + rail.

I have not tried a JT yet. (This circuit is not a JT it is similar....kind of)

Not sure how many or distance yet I have just started playing with this circuit.

My vid shows what I was looking for in this circuit ;D

It looks like you are only using two pins on the trigger coil? The HV on top and some pin on the bottom? Where and or how is the third pin hooked up?

Thanks!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 19, 2010, 03:59:27 PM

I think I will stick with the basics for a little while as there seems to be a lot of odd things happening with this circuit!

:)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 19, 2010, 04:10:40 PM

Quote from: stprue on February 19, 2010, 03:59:27 PM
I think I will stick with the basics for a little while as there seems to be a lot of odd things happening with this circuit!

:)

lol, I just dont understand how to power it? As in how do you hook up the trigger exectly? To what pin goes what and how is it marked on the bottom? I am going to oder a few to replicate it but I have no clue on where to power it? As in it must be so basic its confusing me. I understand one wire goes to the HV on top. On the bottom 3 more wires live.

One of those wires you do not need to hook up, but how is it labeled? Where is it located? The next wire is where the + of the battery goes correct? And the last wire connects to the base of the transistor?

Thanks so much.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 19, 2010, 04:10:56 PM

@ altrez

You can power a JT in other ways....this one never cough on but I though it was pretty cool.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llfJW3Yhjrk

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 19, 2010, 04:12:35 PM

lol altrez

Dont worry I have difficulty communicating any idea!

;D

I'll take some more pics and explain.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 19, 2010, 04:23:53 PM

Quote from: stprue on February 19, 2010, 04:12:35 PM
lol altrez

Dont worry I have difficulty communicating any idea!

;D

I'll take some more pics and explain.

Its me I am just not fallowing the hook up part lol. More specificity how each pin on the bottom of the transformer is connected and hooked up to what :)

Thank you ;)

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 19, 2010, 04:27:06 PM

4KV Trigger coil
Top leg=output connect to pan
Bottom front/right=collector
Bottom back/right=not used
Bottom back/left= + rail

Transistor
Emmiter= - rail
Base=Pan

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 19, 2010, 04:31:07 PM

Quote from: stprue on February 19, 2010, 04:27:06 PM
4KV Trigger coil
Top leg=output connect to pan
Bottom front/right=collector
Bottom back/right=not used
Bottom back/left= + rail

Transistor
Emmiter= - rail
Base=Pan

PERFECT!!!! Thank you so very much for taking the time to do that it helps out so much!

THANK YOU!!!!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 19, 2010, 04:34:13 PM

No problem this little circuit is amazing and so simple!

WOW just noticed how easy it is to tell that this is my first proto board...spots melted and blown up!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sirmikey1 on February 19, 2010, 05:18:12 PM

Great pics guys. I've never tried it like that, base to pan. The transistor that Lidmotor used in the video is a Single Darlington (super amp), and so your results may need some work.
Mikey

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 19, 2010, 05:29:30 PM

Yes you are right! I don't have that transistor so I used what I had but my next order of supply's will include those! I also have some germanium that i will try out later...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on February 19, 2010, 08:00:36 PM

Quote from: jeanna on February 18, 2010, 11:47:45 PM

Many times in the first 8 pages (as far as I have read) there is the reference to john's telling everybody that batteries must be cycled around 20 -30 times by this method, to be able to use this method, but when this long period is over the battery is better than it was ever designed to be.
I guess the process he called "reconditioning" must mean "rebuilding from the chemistry into charge carriers".

So, I bet if you were to discharge this bank of the good ones and recharge them 12 hours each recharge time for 20 times you will be in the ball park to compare with bedini.
I am so glad you had these positive results.

Jeanna

I will have to check out that thread
Have you ran across anything about the negative energy stuff?

I am kind of concerned about the negative energy thing.
I have been using a cap and bridge to recondition batterys for years.... It works great for lead acid....... I have not had as much luck with other kinds of batterys.

I tried charging my old dewalt 18 V with a JT ........after 2 days it still had no charge at all
It was an old battery.........old enough that when put in its charger Its indicator light flashes a replace battery code.

I would like to try the conditioning and recharging thing with a JT.......but at $ 89 a pop I hate to hook up my new batterys with out knowing more about how the negative energy thing works.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on February 19, 2010, 09:22:37 PM

Quote from: xee2 on February 19, 2010, 03:13:58 PM
Using kooler circuit with TDK board gives very nice bright filament bulb.

video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTprXlK9BrY

very nice
did you check your amp draw.. i havn't tried a 3v on the unmodded board

you know the bulb i lit in the video had 356 ohms
and the one you did is 3-4 ohms
i wonder what else we can light...???

good job

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 19, 2010, 10:05:42 PM

wonderfull work every one cant wate to see more !

: )

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on February 20, 2010, 12:18:09 AM

hey , guy's and girls

this is my backwards joule thief... 1.2 volts and 1.5 ma's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lO-Bb5MHZ8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lO-Bb5MHZ8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 20, 2010, 12:45:57 AM

@ kooler

Quote from: kooler on February 19, 2010, 09:22:37 PM
very nice
did you check your amp draw.. i havn't tried a 3v on the unmodded board

you know the bulb i lit in the video had 356 ohms
and the one you did is 3-4 ohms
i wonder what else we can light...???

good job

robbie

The TDK board had blue caps removed. It was hard to measure amps, but they seemed to be aout 400 ma.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 20, 2010, 01:06:47 AM

@ kooler

Quote from: kooler on February 20, 2010, 12:18:09 AM
this is my backwards joule thief... 1.2 volts and 1.5 ma's

It seems to work very well.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on February 20, 2010, 02:06:44 AM

xee2
it is amazing how the secondary puts out on this..
but i couldn't find the bemf on this circuit....
my whole ideal was to run this circuit with negative energy thru the coil..
and it seem to work..
if you notice the scope showed 4.00 volts on the secondary and lit 9 leds.. i didn't have any more to put in so it might burn more..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 20, 2010, 07:11:14 AM

Quote from: kooler on February 20, 2010, 02:06:44 AM
xee2
it is amazing how the secondary puts out on this..
but i couldn't find the bemf on this circuit....
my whole ideal was to run this circuit with negative energy thru the coil..
and it seem to work..
if you notice the scope showed 4.00 volts on the secondary and lit 9 leds.. i didn't have any more to put in so it might burn more..

Wow good job! Can you please give a more in-depth example of what you mean by negative energy or provide some links?

Thanks!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 20, 2010, 07:54:41 AM

I'm having some problems with my mosfets...

I'm reading resistance across the source-drain terminal... and suppling a voltage source via these methods:

Resistor
Resistor in series with capacitor
capacitor
capacitor in series with capacitor

All methods give me extremely radical ( not the same thing twice ) results in resistance readings.

Has anyone got any good info on how to use one as a voltage controlled resistor?

perhaps using extremely small capacitances would decrease the fluctuations?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 20, 2010, 08:31:26 AM

@Kooler

I thought I saw a trigger coil in there! Anyway 1.5ma @1.2v may be a record!

NICE WORK

:o

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sirmikey1 on February 20, 2010, 09:20:55 AM

JonnyDarvo recommends putting a loop jumper wire on the base of the AV plug, makes it much brighter. He oftenï»¿ uses inductors on his av plugs.. Sniffer, hotspot finder tool....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 20, 2010, 10:39:03 AM

@ kooler

Quote from: kooler on February 20, 2010, 02:06:44 AM
i couldn't find the bemf on this circuit....

It should be across the 5T emitter coil.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 20, 2010, 10:47:33 AM

@ MARK

FIND A QUARTZ BALL

2 pie plates and your BAD coil ...

then google otis t car !

regards ... dont go to far!

is : )

S.M.I.L.E : ) your on camera ! ; )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRv59Csi2QY&feature=PlayList&p=1E2472963A73A7C5&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=15

ahhh there it is .... lol

the WOBBLE ... : )

MY ALIEN TECK !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-6OGMXrl1E&feature=PlayList&p=1E2472963A73A7C5&index=20

WOAHHHHH what is that .... lol

: )

you reached the shore you need more ... !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZoYxroHaIo

i took a few pics .... and pulled out the CRYSTAL BALL !

: )

IST!

THATS SO RAVEN! : ) THATS PIC #TRIPPLE 7 ; )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on February 20, 2010, 01:43:21 PM

Hi Kooler what did you mean by saying backwards circuit? Leds are lighting up by BEMF?
Xee where can I find that TDK circuit board?
Thanks guys for your effort.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 20, 2010, 02:03:23 PM

Quote from: guruji on February 20, 2010, 01:43:21 PM
Xee where can I find that TDK A?

http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16565

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 20, 2010, 02:10:23 PM

I will have to make a new video as i have it pumping now and i will jt the unit that drives it .

it is definitally doing something ....

: )

hows that for science ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on February 20, 2010, 03:05:09 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on February 20, 2010, 07:54:41 AM
I'm having some problems with my mosfets...

I'm reading resistance across the source-drain terminal... and suppling a voltage source via these methods:

Resistor
Resistor in series with capacitor
capacitor
capacitor in series with capacitor

All methods give me extremely radical ( not the same thing twice ) results in resistance readings.

Has anyone got any good info on how to use one as a voltage controlled resistor?

perhaps using extremely small capacitances would decrease the fluctuations?

Hi Jadaro,
Try this link:
http://users.ece.gatech.edu/~lanterma/sdiy/datasheets/transistors/vishay_fet_cvr_an.pdf
Kind regards.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sirmikey1 on February 20, 2010, 04:08:26 PM

Kooler,
Is the new JT circuit of yours still a JT? I don't really see any Joule kicking/thieving (B to E), unless you want to count that resistor. This reminds me of that chilliqueen circuit, very low draw and stopped running at .84volts.

Mikey

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on February 20, 2010, 05:00:04 PM

hello mikey
'' if you will look.. it is backwards '' THE TRANSISTOR IS BACKWARDS ..
all this circuit has is b to e action...
if this looks like a chilliqueen circuit to you then show me a chilliqueen circuit that will light 9 leds bright on just 1.5ma
everyone is like oh.. the chilliqueen circuit.. there is a reason the transistor runs hot in his circuit.. cause it will suck 200-300 ma.. if you let it.. and then when you get the pull down to 5ma it sits there and does nothing..
if you want a jt to run.. on nothing.. use this transistor.. mps2222a
maybe i should just stick with testing circuits and not talking..

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sirmikey1 on February 20, 2010, 05:38:34 PM

Robbie,
Sorry to rattle you, was not my intention. "Is this one still spiking?"
Mikey

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 20, 2010, 05:49:20 PM

@ kooler

Quote from: kooler on February 20, 2010, 05:00:04 PM
use this transistor.. mps2222a

If you can get some BC337-40 transistors I suspect they will work even better than the mps2222A.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on February 20, 2010, 06:11:31 PM

xee2
i just went back and checked the emitter for bemf and the scope doesn't show it but it will light 5 leds.. so the secondary does alot better..
maybe i should send this scope off to get it check.. i may damaged it trying to check my cap discharge circuit..

guruji
i have just got the negative of the battery running thru the coil and the transistor backwards.. and the base has the biggest spikes and the collector has negative pulses going to the positive side of the battery..
but i think something is up with my scope it reads 21 khz not hooked up.. i've read the book 5-6 times.. theres another way to hook this circuit up
so i will keep everyone posted

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 20, 2010, 06:40:28 PM

@all

On a standard JT circuit whats the best way to check for back emf?

Thanks!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on February 20, 2010, 06:59:04 PM

Quote from: altrez on February 20, 2010, 06:40:28 PM
@all

On a standard JT circuit whats the best way to check for back emf?

Thanks!

stick a diode on the collector of the transistor

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 20, 2010, 07:37:48 PM

Quote from: altrez on February 20, 2010, 06:40:28 PM
@all

On a standard JT circuit whats the best way to check for back emf?

Thanks!

see image: ..since the collapse is in the opposite direction, it's actually proper to measure voltage like this.. ???

- - - - - - ???

Does anyone know how to circumvent the cut-off voltage of the base; perhaps somewhere in the intricacies of the coil to base, the voltage can be boosted beyond the source? ( safely )?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 20, 2010, 09:13:59 PM

Quote from: kooler on February 20, 2010, 06:59:04 PM
stick a diode on the collector of the transistor

robbie

Thanks robbie!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 20, 2010, 09:17:25 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on February 20, 2010, 07:37:48 PM
see image: ..since the collapse is in the opposite direction, it's actually proper to measure voltage like this.. ???

- - - - - - ???

Does anyone know how to circumvent the cut-off voltage of the base; perhaps somewhere in the intricacies of the coil to base, the voltage can be boosted beyond the source? ( safely )?

Thank you for the pic jadaro2600. I think I am getting back emf from my config. I put the scope on it and it went wild!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 20, 2010, 09:27:16 PM

@ kooler

Quote from: kooler on February 20, 2010, 06:11:31 PM
i just went back and checked the emitter for bemf and the scope doesn't show it but it will light 5 leds..

5 LEDs x 3V = 15V across coil. That is not from the battery, so there must be some bemf there.

It would be between the emitter and the negative terminal of battery with positive at the battery. Maybe the positive spike is just getting sucked into the battery negative terminal.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 20, 2010, 10:06:01 PM

Quote from: xee2 on February 20, 2010, 09:27:16 PM
@ kooler

5 LEDs x 3V = 15V across coil. That is not from the battery, so there must be some bemf there.

It would be between the emitter and the negative terminal of battery with positive at the battery. Maybe the positive spike is just getting sucked into the battery negative terminal.

Possibly, a way to isolate what is happening is to use a supercap instead of a bat. I did some experiments a while back with a 2.7 volt 10 F supercap that showed some additional anomalies. It is documented on my videos but, when the ultra bright leds went out, all I had to do was to touch the top of the transistor (2n2094) and they lit up again.

If a supercap (a small one) is charged up with a 1.5 battery, I think this will expose any bemf in the system. It won't be any rebound from the battery or anything like that, just the cap and the JT and the leds.

This may help, it may not. I am just tossing this out there based upon what I have observed.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on February 20, 2010, 10:34:16 PM

thanks bill
i will check it
i didn't think to stick a cap across the battery and see what happens
i am also going to put a bridge on my secondarys to see what is really going on there.. cause my scope isn't showing the spikes.. it just show a small wave form with 4 volts

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 20, 2010, 10:37:00 PM

Quote from: kooler on February 20, 2010, 10:34:16 PM
thanks bill
i will check it
i didn't think to stick a cap across the battery and see what happens
i am also going to put a bridge on my secondarys to see what is really going on there.. cause my scope isn't showing the spikes.. it just show a small wave form with 4 volts

robbie

I've found it beneficial to put a small electrolytic cap across the + - terminals of the battery when checking for current usage - otherwise most of my circuits don't operate with the ammeter inserted.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 21, 2010, 12:20:59 AM

@ kooler

Quote from: kooler on February 20, 2010, 10:34:16 PM
scope isn't showing the spikes.. it just show a small A form with 4 volts

How can 4 volts light up 9 LEDs in series? 9x3=27 volts would be required.

Maybe there is something wrong with the scope. However, the spikes might just be too fast for the scope to capture them.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 21, 2010, 12:29:12 AM

@ kooler

If you put a capacitor across the 9 LEDs it should charge up to about 27 volts and you should be able to measure that with a DMM set to read DC voltage and then you can check to see if the scope agrees.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 21, 2010, 12:32:13 AM

deleted by xee2 - double post again

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 21, 2010, 12:57:56 AM

apple zoom rocket boom!

i have added the phases and the curcuilating flasher ...

it is just wild i can see visually with my eyes the ringgggging colpase ... saclar

wow

ist

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGp1my-Zx-M&feature=dir

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 21, 2010, 02:35:49 AM

@all

I just finish a new video showing my last JT construction , but also the bulb lighting from the battery the E-C connection and the 3 different secondaries .

The E-C on this one is really strong , but this design is flawed , with parallel layers the load is transparent but not on this one ...

Its a good one anyway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz4pN-LybGo

The best is still to come !

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 21, 2010, 03:53:27 AM

@ Mk1

Nice video. The music was a great addition.

There is a free program called "Media Player Classic" that allows capturing images from a video. I am sure there are many others, but that is what I use. In your video I was confused about where you were putting the bulb. Perhaps you could capture an image of each location from the video and use the location of the bulb as the title of the image (that way there is no need to try to put labels on the image, although that can be done using paint). Then post the images so it is clear where the bulb was being placed.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 21, 2010, 04:39:28 AM

Quote from: xee2 on February 21, 2010, 03:53:27 AM
@ Mk1

Nice video. The music was a great addition.

There is a free program called "Media Player Classic" that allows capturing images from a video. I am sure there are many others, but that is what I use. In your video I was confused about where you were putting the bulb. Perhaps you could capture an image of each location from the video and use the location of the bulb as the title of the image (that way there is no need to try to put labels on the image, although that can be done using paint). Then post the images so it is clear where the bulb was being placed.

Thank Xee , for the positive comments , i edited the movie you should watch it again... Enjoy.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 21, 2010, 04:54:20 AM

@ Mk1

Very well done.

Power used by a resistor is given by ohms law as voltage squared divided by resistance. The resistance of the bulb stays the same from place to place but the voltage does not. It is easy to see that there is a lot more power going into the bulb where the voltage is higher.

In many circuits the voltage drops as soon as a load (resistance) is put across it. In your design, the voltage seems to remain high even with a load on it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 21, 2010, 06:26:31 PM

Modifying the TDK boards by removing blue caps seems to provide more output power, but it also seems to increase the input current draw beyond what a cell phone charger can put out. At least, for some reason the modified boards do not work from a cell phone charger. Note, the modified boards will light tube from a 6 volt battery.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 22, 2010, 12:01:55 PM

Some TDK board test results. Note, the more power board is delivering the faster the sparks will be.

modified 6V - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1oIKAPyj4Q
unmodified 6V - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGQSeFKxNyY
unmodified cell phone charger - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LgIYrkx4TE

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on February 22, 2010, 01:09:14 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on February 20, 2010, 07:37:48 PM
see image: ..since the collapse is in the opposite direction, it's actually proper to measure voltage like this.. ???

- - - - - - ???

Does anyone know how to circumvent the cut-off voltage of the base; perhaps somewhere in the intricacies of the coil to base, the voltage can be boosted beyond the source? ( safely )?

I think people are making this a little more complicated than it is
A JT is just a simple oscillator and a coil
The oscillator part of the JT provides pulses to the coil
These pulsed cause a magnetic field in the coil
When the pulse ends ........the magnetic field collapses and makes what is called back EMF or a flyback pulse.
If you are using a 1.5 V battery and can measure over 1.5 volts across any part of your JT you are detecting back EMF.
No meter that I know of is calibrated to read flyback pulses accurately
A diode bridge can be used to make DC voltage from the pulses ...... but the best way to detect the flyback is to use it to do something..... like light a bunch of LEDs

gary

Edit

Jeanna posted this link a while back but I thought that I would repost it and add a comment about it.
Everything he says about Tesla impulse technology applies directly to JTs ....... JTs make spikes..........impulses .......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aA8-0tctyw&NR=1

In the past some people here were trying to find ways to make their JT output into a better sign wave....... what we should be going for is a better spike

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 22, 2010, 01:41:07 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on February 22, 2010, 01:09:14 PM
I think people are making this a little more complicated than it is
A JT is just a simple oscillator and a coil
The oscillator part of the JT provides pulses to the coil
These pulsed cause a magnetic field in the coil
When the pulse ends ........the magnetic field collapses and makes what you is called back EMF or a flyback pulse.
If you are using a 1.5 V battery and can measure over 1.5 volts across any part of your JT you are detecting back EMF.
No meter that I know of is calibrated to read flyback pulses accurately
A diode bridge can be used to make DC voltage from the pulses ...... but the best way to detect the flyback is to use it to do something..... like light a bunch of LEDs

gary

Edit

Jeanna posted this link a while back but I thought that I would repost it and add a comment about it.
Everything he says about Tesla impulse technology applies directly to JTs ....... JTs make spikes..........impulses .......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aA8-0tctyw&NR=1

In the past some people here were trying to find ways to make their JT output into a better sign wave....... what we should be going for is a better spike

gary

Hello Gary,

I have tried to plug leds on the back end of the JT to find and or detect the back emf. What is the best way to do this? I cant seem to find a way to get it to work? I have plugged a led from the base to the negative post of the battery and it showed no spikes.

However I can read 4.5v on my Scope on the negative of the battery?

Any help would be a blessing,

Thank you.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on February 22, 2010, 02:06:39 PM

Quote from: altrez on February 22, 2010, 01:41:07 PM
Hello Gary,

I have tried to plug leds on the back end of the JT to find and or detect the back emf. What is the best way to do this? I cant seem to find a way to get it to work? I have plugged a led from the base to the negative post of the battery and it showed no spikes.

However I can read 4.5v on my Scope on the negative of the battery?

Any help would be a blessing,

Thank you.

-Altrez

Altrez

On basic JT circuit the LED is connected between the collector and the emitter of the transistor

Try it in both directions....... it should only light iin one direction

You might try adding another winding if you have room on your toroid
You you said you had 4.5 V on your battery.
I would try adding another winding with around the same number of turns as your primary....... then measure across the ends of that winding....... quite a few JTs will light a LED in either direction on the secondary.........but one direction is usually much brighter.

ANother thing to try.
Most of the instructions for beginers that I have seen tell you to use a resistor on the base of the transistor.......I strongly suggest a pot ......a variable resistor ....... It is wise to check the full range of the pot each time you change ANYTHING on your JT

ANother thing you might try is adding a capacitor across your resistor or pot .......this makes a tank circuit. I would start with a .1uF ....... I try several different sizes of cap on each JT I make.,
Some coils will not run without a tank circuit....... I am pretty sure that this is not the case with your coil..........because you got 4.5 V already

gary

Edit

The picture shows a basic JT
The red circle indicates where the LED goes
The blue circle shows the tank\
The green squiggle is suposed to be an arrow indicating a variable resistor

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 22, 2010, 02:37:45 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on February 22, 2010, 02:06:39 PM
Altrez

On basic JT circuit the LED is connected between the collector and the emitter of the transistor

Try it in both directions....... it should only light iin one direction

You might try adding another winding if you have room on your toroid
You you said you had 4.5 V on your battery.
I would try adding another winding with around the same number of turns as your primary....... then measure across the ends of that winding....... quite a few JTs will light a LED in either direction on the secondary.........but one direction is usually much brighter.

ANother thing to try.
Most of the instructions for beginers that I have seen tell you to use a resistor on the base of the transistor.......I strongly suggest a pot ......a variable resistor ....... It is wise to check the full range of the pot each time you change ANYTHING on your JT

ANother thing you might try is adding a capacitor across your resistor or pot .......this makes a tank circuit. I would start with a .1uF ....... I try several different sizes of cap on each JT I make.,
Some coils will not run without a tank circuit....... I am pretty sure that this is not the case with your coil..........because you got 4.5 V already

gary

Edit

The picture shows a basic JT
The red circle indicates where the LED goes
The blue circle shows the tank\
The green squiggle is suposed to be an arrow indicating a variable resistor

Hey Gary,

Yes I know how the basic JT works I have made a bunch of them. I have added up to 12 secondary coils on one toroid and can easily light several 100 LEDS.

I always remove the led on the basic JT and just use secondary's. I have a tank circuity with an adjustable cap that I added 12 months ago and I am also using a pot and have for a very long time.

I guess what I do not understand is how you are detecting back emf? I can hook up a 1.2 volt battery and place a cap in parallel with it then fill a 12 volt electrolytic cap to 4.5 volts so I know that there is "something happening"

Just trying to understand the back emf stuff.

Thanks!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sirmikey1 on February 22, 2010, 03:14:46 PM

Altrez,
As far as discernment.... When you short the hot to ground, you get a spark, and that's your spike, extreme amplification, called negative entropy. The way I see it, and I may need correction, is that the transistor B & E work as diode, and are being shorted, hot to ground, with every oscillation, spikes. That's what makes the JT a Thief, gooses or bumps/pumps the battery.
Has anyone here worked with visual spikes, to mod?
Mike

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 22, 2010, 03:25:44 PM

Quote from: sirmikey1 on February 22, 2010, 03:14:46 PM
Altrez,
As far as discernment.... When you short the hot to ground, you get a spark, and that's your spike, extreme amplification, called negative entropy. The way I see it, and I may need correction, is that the transistor B & E work as diode, and are being shorted, hot to ground, with every oscillation, spikes. That's what makes the JT a Thief, gooses or bumps/pumps the battery.
Has anyone here worked with visual spikes, to mod?
Mike

Hey Mike,

Thanks for all the help. I thought the reason the JT worked was because it took the low voltage from the battery to run a transistor. that when hooked to a toroid amplified the voltage and power the led and or whatever else runs off stepped up voltage.

I have seen some big spikes on my scope from the secondary's and they look very interesting. But what I find is really interesting is when the JT is tuned a certin way you can fill a cap that is connected in parallel to the main 1.2 volt battery.

So i think that if you where to place say a 10F cap in parallel with the battery you could remove the main 1.2 battery when the cap was full and then run from the cap alone.

This was the first part of my self runner I posted many months ago! I just never got a chance to figure out where the spikes where coming from?

Thanks!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sirmikey1 on February 22, 2010, 04:22:14 PM

Altrez,
Again, correct me if I"m wrong.
M

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sirmikey1 on February 22, 2010, 04:47:50 PM

Altrez,
Here are your spikes; it's the shorting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRyKVU6YzYw

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 22, 2010, 05:07:45 PM

SIMPLE SEC running off flexible solar loooooowwwww ma

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 22, 2010, 05:16:46 PM

I noticed something strange....as my supercap fills the circuit draws more ma! I wonder if it will level off at some happy medium with out drawing unnecessary ma's

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 22, 2010, 06:04:49 PM

Nice work stprue!!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sirmikey1 on February 22, 2010, 10:06:59 PM

Hi,

Just got a reply, some guy claiming that the toroid is what's causing the spikes.

Quote: "Their is an parasitic capacity that is inside that toroid. Since any coil has a parasitic capacity. A square has a slpoe (slope?) jump when the square start and stops."

Edit: He later agreed with me....
Quote: "Yes it could be Base/Emitter activity."

Mikey

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 22, 2010, 10:13:23 PM

@all

Here is a pic of an 8 foot 95 watt tube being lit with a TDK module from EGM

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on February 22, 2010, 10:59:04 PM

Here is a .pdf I found a while back that explains how it works. It should help clear things up a bit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Foggy-Notion on February 23, 2010, 01:05:07 AM

Great job Altrez, and we're gonna catch the guy who left that couch on your lawn.
Speaking of which, it rememinds me of my Joule Thief, well after 800 pages
of "Just make one" I figured I better or I'll just be a back seat scientist ever more.
So after the arrival of my $3 ebay solder iron, here it is....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Foggy-Notion on February 23, 2010, 01:09:21 AM

And believe it or not, I actually have some solder left over

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 23, 2010, 03:56:55 AM

@ Foggy-Notion

Nice Joule Thief you got there, welcome to the land of science and energy that dosent exist (but does).

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sirmikey1 on February 23, 2010, 05:19:44 AM

MrMag,
The pdf doesn't mention the spikes at all; and I had never realized that this was not well known or understood. I have heard it mentioned here that the transistor replaces the spark gap ;)...
Mikey

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 23, 2010, 06:06:48 AM

Can someone explain the concept of parasitic capacitance a bit more ( or at least how this pertains to the joule thief ).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 23, 2010, 07:44:29 AM

Quote from: Foggy-Notion on February 23, 2010, 01:05:07 AM
Great job Altrez, and we're gonna catch the guy who left that couch on your lawn.
Speaking of which, it rememinds me of my Joule Thief, well after 800 pages
of "Just make one" I figured I better or I'll just be a back seat scientist ever more.
So after the arrival of my $3 ebay solder iron, here it is....

hahahahahahahahahaha that couch is a classic! i never should of took the plastic off!

Good job on that JT.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 23, 2010, 07:52:13 AM

Quote from: sirmikey1 on February 23, 2010, 05:19:44 AM
MrMag,
The pdf doesn't mention the spikes at all; and I had never realized that this was not well known or understood. I have heard it mentioned here that the transistor replaces the spark gap ;)...
Mikey

Hey Mikey,

I have never read anywhere that the transistor replaces a spark-gap in a JT? Can you please post some links that sounds like a very interesting read! I am not 100% sure but I think the JT is basically just an oscillation circuit that ramps up the low voltage to a very high voltage. At a very low current draw from the battery.

It works with high frequency and high voltage to do some really interesting things :) I could be totally wrong here so Bill, Jim, Jeanna, xee2 please feel free to correct me!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 23, 2010, 07:56:29 AM

That's right Altrez and the high frequency changes many things in the circuit equation one of which is the amount of current you need to light a LED.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 23, 2010, 08:10:51 AM

Quote from: stprue on February 23, 2010, 07:56:29 AM
That's right Altrez and the high frequency changes many things in the circuit equation one of which is the amount of current you need to light a LED.

Thanks Stprue! I was pretty sure that's what was happening.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sirmikey1 on February 23, 2010, 08:50:32 AM

Do you guys realize that I am speaking strictly of the spikes? The 3 volt output JT will charge a 300 volt capacitor fairly quickly. This overunity search link will show instances of "spark gap = transistor".
http://www.google.com/custom?hl=en&safe=active&client=pub-2734280293205008&cof=FORID%3A13%3BAH%3Aleft%3BCX%3Aoverunity%252Ecom%2520search%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Fintl%2Fen%2Fimages%2Flogos%2Fcustom_search_logo_sm.gif%3BLH%3A30%3BLP%3A1%3BLC%3A%230000ff%3BVLC%3A%23663399%3BDIV%3A%23336699%3B&adkw=AELymgU2ZFBJAdG3J-iLzDCI5NFCZCjViMM4YyV6chmG-Bukhesr8W3MQ0sMHyIKYu2LwwH2wMh6452REmUJj1pJTiMG79iwqpL69RYwsT9ASQbSBlzM5i-5gSSF7TJlFm6raddjVKsZTXTaaz8PKfapkpMDEGHkgkkDDpV9zLEEnoMQ7ShPYt37i_ANneRYDGPQGQqpaLinRZi93d8TfUry_exD5-HtT9w49dlMfek0JOcMyyP-Bn6eFEB-9HVMycohYtRso7IEfB_M9U-ZugCRyMoGaZSr5-libK0lWTHsI3Xdu8GVe7Q&channel=6724390970&boostcse=0&q=spark+gap+we+now+have+the+transistor&btnG=Search&cx=partner-pub-2734280293205008%3Aw8e3l5-sj0c

MIkey

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 23, 2010, 09:19:18 AM

Quote from: sirmikey1 on February 23, 2010, 08:50:32 AM
Do you guys realize that I am speaking strictly of the spikes? The 3 volt output JT will charge a 300 volt capacitor fairly quickly. This overunity search link will show instances of "spark gap = transistor".
http://www.google.com/custom?hl=en&safe=active&client=pub-2734280293205008&cof=FORID%3A13%3BAH%3Aleft%3BCX%3Aoverunity%252Ecom%2520search%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Fintl%2Fen%2Fimages%2Flogos%2Fcustom_search_logo_sm.gif%3BLH%3A30%3BLP%3A1%3BLC%3A%230000ff%3BVLC%3A%23663399%3BDIV%3A%23336699%3B&adkw=AELymgU2ZFBJAdG3J-iLzDCI5NFCZCjViMM4YyV6chmG-Bukhesr8W3MQ0sMHyIKYu2LwwH2wMh6452REmUJj1pJTiMG79iwqpL69RYwsT9ASQbSBlzM5i-5gSSF7TJlFm6raddjVKsZTXTaaz8PKfapkpMDEGHkgkkDDpV9zLEEnoMQ7ShPYt37i_ANneRYDGPQGQqpaLinRZi93d8TfUry_exD5-HtT9w49dlMfek0JOcMyyP-Bn6eFEB-9HVMycohYtRso7IEfB_M9U-ZugCRyMoGaZSr5-libK0lWTHsI3Xdu8GVe7Q&channel=6724390970&boostcse=0&q=spark+gap+we+now+have+the+transistor&btnG=Search&cx=partner-pub-2734280293205008%3Aw8e3l5-sj0c

MIkey

Hey Mikey,

I guess i am a bit confused about what spikes you are referring to? The JT is a tank circuit "Ham Radio Talk" It works by using high voltage high frequency. Now i am sure there are spikes on the back end of it.

I am just having trouble understanding what you are trying to explain?

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on February 23, 2010, 09:21:08 AM

Quote from: sirmikey1 on February 23, 2010, 05:19:44 AM
MrMag,
The pdf doesn't mention the spikes at all; and I had never realized that this was not well known or understood. I have heard it mentioned here that the transistor replaces the spark gap ;)...
Mikey

The pdf is a pretty basic explanation of how it works. The part where they explain about the LED coming on could of been expanded a little more. Basically, the flux is built up and then when it is built up enough, the transistor shuts off and the flux is released through the LED. It's back EMF that is turning on the LED.
I wouldn't agree that the transistor replaces the spark gap. The spark gap is a completely different beast. What you are working with here in a joule thief is utilizing the BEMF to perform other work.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sirmikey1 on February 23, 2010, 09:59:38 AM

Hi,
I'm sitting here hesitant to post, thinking that maybe you guys are being humorous. Jeanna pointed out the >300 volt spikes to me months ago.
Mikey

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 23, 2010, 10:07:46 AM

Quote from: sirmikey1 on February 23, 2010, 09:59:38 AM
Hi,
I'm sitting here hesitant to post, thinking that maybe you guys are being humorous. Jeanna pointed out the >300 volt spikes to me months ago.
Mikey

Hey Mikey please don't hesitate to post! I do not know exactly how this thing works or even if I have a good fundamental knowledge of it :). We are ALL trying to learn so your help is greatly appreciated!

Yes there is 400+ v spikes on the Coil I can see that with my scope easy. Jeanna and I have the exect same scope so she showed me how she found them. And they are there on the secondary coils. But theses spikes are not what is causing the JT to work IMHO and again please help me understand if I am wrong.

Thanks!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sirmikey1 on February 23, 2010, 10:43:31 AM

Al...

My goldmine order should arrive today or tomorrow. Will duplicate Kooler's Beefy Heat/Motor JT, and hopefully I'll post pics. I"m now debating ordering one of the 1500 farad BoostCaps (beef).

Hey Kooler, "WHERE'S THE BEEF?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aISkVvi5iI8

;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 23, 2010, 10:58:51 AM

Quote from: sirmikey1 on February 23, 2010, 10:43:31 AM
Al...

My goldmine order should arrive today or tomorrow. Will duplicate Kooler's Beefy Heat/Motor JT, and hopefully I'll post pics. I"m now debating ordering one of the 1500 farad BoostCaps (beef).

Hey Kooler, "WHERE'S THE BEEF?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aISkVvi5iI8

;)

Sweet! I am going to place an order soon and I will get one of those caps as well they are sweet. Can not wait to see your replication of the kooler JT.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 23, 2010, 11:08:48 AM

Quote from: kooler on February 20, 2010, 02:06:44 AM
xee2
it is amazing how the secondary puts out on this..
but i couldn't find the bemf on this circuit....
my whole ideal was to run this circuit with negative energy thru the coil..
and it seem to work..
if you notice the scope showed 4.00 volts on the secondary and lit 9 leds.. i didn't have any more to put in so it might burn more..

Kooler I forgot to ask, but what type of ferrite are you using? Goldmine?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sirmikey1 on February 23, 2010, 12:49:55 PM

For anyone interested, Mouser.com
61mm Toroid Core
Mouser #:    710-74270097
Mfr. #:    74270097
Desc.:    EMI/RFI Suppressors & Ferrites Z=133ohms @ 100Mhz
RoHS:    RoHS Compliant
Availability   Ships Now $5.86
http://mouser.com/ProductDetail/Wurth-Electronics/74270097/?qs=5twSNpOB8IC3x1MNWE5eDg%3d%3d

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on February 23, 2010, 12:50:19 PM

to whom it may concern.

how the jt circuit works...
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg147530#msg147530

@jeanna
what ever became of the circular store bought led thingy? it was a silver/grey circle about 6" in diameter, had 24? leds in it and ran off 4 aa's. if i recall it had 4 semicircle pcb boards that the leds were mounted on, as well as some little surface mount resistors. i can't find your posts on it...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 23, 2010, 01:11:35 PM

Quote from: sirmikey1 on February 23, 2010, 12:49:55 PM
For anyone interested, Mouser.com
61mm Toroid Core
Mouser #:    710-74270097
Mfr. #:    74270097
Desc.:    EMI/RFI Suppressors & Ferrites Z=133ohms @ 100Mhz
RoHS:    RoHS Compliant
Availability   Ships Now $5.86
http://mouser.com/ProductDetail/Wurth-Electronics/74270097/?qs=5twSNpOB8IC3x1MNWE5eDg%3d%3d

?

What is the permibility of the core?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sirmikey1 on February 23, 2010, 01:14:11 PM

Kooler's Beefy JT is this:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8334.msg227459#msg227459

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: zhak on February 23, 2010, 01:30:07 PM

Hello friends, waiting for your help! look photo
I bought a good light diode strip (12V, 3.5W), excellent shine, good angle of illumination.
From battery 12V shine excellent!
From my JT (3-13-240, 2n3055, 15om) result is very bad. :(

'll Show you need to modify!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 23, 2010, 01:32:59 PM

Quote from: sirmikey1 on February 23, 2010, 01:14:11 PM
Click the link and then you'll see a link to spec sheets.

I didnt see perm. only mhz test ranges....oh well!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 23, 2010, 02:19:36 PM

Quote from: zhak on February 23, 2010, 01:30:07 PM
(12V, 3.5W

JT does not put out 3.5 watts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sirmikey1 on February 23, 2010, 02:33:50 PM

stprue,

I spent days locating toroid cores. 61mm is Wurth MFG largest, but there is a 120mm available down below, in 5 different permeabilities... $$$$ ranges.

Mouser.com's Wurth Ferrite Toroid Cores
"Type W" is Medium Permeability around 800

Edit: Jeanna bought her big ones from here:
Quote: "The number of the very big one in the jeanna's light is OW48613TC from MMI. The $30 minimum is from RTL??? It is on MMI website as one of their distributors."

Here below, you can order any size and permeability price range, but I have not yet found a distributor with good stock. I can call them if you want, would be nice to have the biggies.

Click the permeability range TABs at the top
http://www.fair-rite.com/cgibin/catalog.pgm?THEAPPL=Inductive+Components&THEWHERE=Closed+Magnetic+Circuit&THEPART=Toroids#select:freq6

Mikey

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 23, 2010, 02:53:59 PM

Quote from: sirmikey1 on February 23, 2010, 02:33:50 PM
stprue,

I spent days locating toroid cores. 61mm is Wurth MFG largest, but there is a 120mm available down below, in 5 different permeabilities... $$$$ ranges.

Mouser.com's Wurth Ferrite Toroid Cores
"Type W" is Medium Permeability around 800

Edit: Jeanna bought her big ones from here:
Quote: "The number of the very big one in the jeanna's light is OW48613TC from MMI. The $30 minimum is from RTL??? It is on MMI website as one of their distributors."

Here below, you can order any size and permeability price range, but I have not yet found a distributor with good stock. I can call them if you want, would be nice to have the biggies.

Click the permeability range TABs at the top
http://www.fair-rite.com/cgibin/catalog.pgm?THEAPPL=Inductive+Components&THEWHERE=Closed+Magnetic+Circuit&THEPART=Toroids#select:freq6

Mikey

Hey Mikey,

I get all mine at this site http://www.cwsbytemark.com/ I posted it 800 pages back so here it is again. They have great toroids.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tysb3 on February 23, 2010, 02:59:02 PM

@ All

For anyone interested: http://www.st.com/stonline/products/literature/ds/15474.pdf

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 23, 2010, 03:01:40 PM

Quote from: xee2 on February 23, 2010, 02:19:36 PM
JT does not put out 3.5 watts.

Hey xee2
How much should it put out? i know with mine I get less then 1 watt out with a 1.2v 1900 mA battery I think. But i could be testing wrong! Do you know of any good way to verify output of the JT?

@all

How are you guys / gals checking output power?

Thanks!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 23, 2010, 03:19:27 PM

@ altrez

I posted this some time ago.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 23, 2010, 03:41:00 PM

Quote from: xee2 on February 23, 2010, 03:19:27 PM
@ altrez

I posted this some time ago.

Thank you so much for the re-post!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on February 23, 2010, 03:41:50 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on February 23, 2010, 06:06:48 AM
Can someone explain the concept of parasitic capacitance a bit more ( or at least how this pertains to the joule thief ).

Hi jadaro2600,

Parasitic capacitance is a situation that often exists as an unwanted result of electronic components placed within close proximity to each other.
Circuit board tracks, wires and inductors can effectively form capacitive elements similar to the plates of a capacitor. The resultant capacitance set up by surrounding electrostatic fields can seriously effect the performance of electronic circuits creating instability, frequency deviations in oscillators and many other undesirable effects. Two conductors placed side by side or wound as a as a coil posses a natural capacitance due to the fields set up as current flows through them. Circuit designers have to take into account these capacitive effects especially in the design of HF oscillator circuits where the spacing between the windings of a coil is paramount to it's circuit performance. The JT circuits posted here in particular can produce varying results from this phenomena alone. Unfortunately electronic principles and explanations can be very difficult to put across in terms that can be easily understood and I'm probably not the best when it comes to explaining things... so I hope I've managed to help you here!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 23, 2010, 04:19:16 PM

@all

Koolers circuit works great! Here are a few pic and a video is soon to follow.

1.5v
Draw .07ma
7 LEDS
Transistor 2N3904

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on February 23, 2010, 04:25:49 PM

The spikes refer to the high voltage transient pulses that are produced when an electrical current flowing through an inductor is switched on and off. The resultant back EMF (electro magnetic field) due to the calapsing field at switch off produces a resultant voltage in excess of the voltage that created it. This is a very brief theory. Think of the transistor used in a JT circuit as a simple off/on switch connected in a series with an inductor which is being turned off and on at a rapid rate. The on time compared to the off time is infact quite short and so appears as a positive spike resembling a needle as seen on an oscilloscope screen, this positive transition represents the time the transistor is switched on and because of it's extremely short on period compared with it's relatively long off period is one of the main reasons this type of circuit draws such a low current from the source battery. There are several scope shots within this thread showing the wave form produced by this type of circuit. By the use of a feedback coil winding to the base circuit the transistor can be automatically switched on and off at a re occurring frequency dependant on the various component elements which make up the complete circuit. This switching action thus gives rise to a series of high output voltage pulses or spikes. LED's are relatively high impedance and low current devices and work well across the output of the JT. By clever manipulation of the available energy
various other ideas have also been put forward by other contributor's.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 23, 2010, 04:37:29 PM

And for the record!!!!!!!

8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 23, 2010, 04:42:56 PM

Here is the video

8)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfzD1vgphoA

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 23, 2010, 06:27:49 PM

Quote from: stprue on February 23, 2010, 04:42:56 PM
Here is the video

8)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfzD1vgphoA

sweet! :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on February 23, 2010, 06:28:54 PM

Quote from: stprue on February 23, 2010, 04:37:29 PM
And for the record!!!!!!!

8)

here is 16 micro amps
http://www.youtube.com/user/koolerization#p/u/3/HnMCcTzMKXk (http://www.youtube.com/user/koolerization#p/u/3/HnMCcTzMKXk)

but mine is on the c-e of the transistor..

you do good work..
i wish i could have such a clean work area

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 23, 2010, 06:33:25 PM

WOW

16 micro amps

You could probable power that with an am radio circuit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 23, 2010, 06:33:25 PM

@all

I have been having some great results playing with the TDK board from EGM. However i can not get a JT to power it like some of you have done. I tested the JT and its putting out 10 volts DC on a secondary and i can see 100 ma draw when I hook up the TDK circuit. However nothing on the HV out?

Any ideas?

Thanks!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 23, 2010, 06:48:56 PM

Quote from: altrez on February 23, 2010, 06:33:25 PM
However i can not get a JT to power it like some of you have done.

Who did that?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 23, 2010, 06:56:06 PM

Quote from: xee2 on February 23, 2010, 06:48:56 PM
Who did that?

I thought you did with the aa cell phone charger right?

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 23, 2010, 07:10:51 PM

Quote from: altrez on February 23, 2010, 06:56:06 PM
I thought you did with the aa A right?

-Altrez

Cell phone charger is not really a JT. It is much more efficient at power conversion. But it does do much the same thing.

But, you should be able to light a fluorescent tube using a cell phone charger with TDK board. If the tube does not light, try a neon. If that does not light something is wrong.

Are you the person who said he was running the TDK board from 9 volts? If so how long did you run it at 9 volts?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 23, 2010, 07:20:04 PM

Quote from: xee2 on February 23, 2010, 07:10:51 PM
Cell phone charger is not really a JT. It is much more efficient at power conversion. But it does do much the same thing.

But, you should be able to light a fluorescent tube using a cell phone charger with TDK board. If the tube does not light, try a neon. If that does not light something is wrong.

Are you the person who said he was running the TDK board from 9 volts? If so how long did you run it at 9 volts?

Yes i always have ran it at 9 volts and have ran it for more the 2 hours at 9 volts powering a tube and a least 50 leds via wireless or SEC works perfect and never had an issue.

Still confused as why the cell charger outputs more energy then a JT? Is the Cell charge simply doing DC - DC conversion? If so then I totaly understand why it would work.

But again I can light 30 leds off the ground connection on the battery from the TDK. and I can get around 3 foot wireless from it. I think my big 8 foot tube is acting like a massive broadcaster lol.

Oh and when I connect to the negative of the battery's ground and light all the LEDS it draws no current or any more voltage. Its really easy to test sense you have one on hand. I bet I could light over 100. It needs the AV-plug to work.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 23, 2010, 07:52:02 PM

@ altrez

Quote from: altrez on February 23, 2010, 07:20:04 PM
Yes i always have ran it at 9 volts and have ran it for more the 2 hours at 9 volts powering a tube and a least 50 leds via wireless or SEC works perfect and never had an issue.

Thanks.

I think that the cell phone charger is providing about 200 mA at 5 volts (1 watt). The TDK board requires 1 watt. So there is just enough power. Note, that I could not power the modified TDK board with the cell phone charger because it required more input power to work. My best single coil JT only puts out about 1/8 th watt, but it is able to increase the voltage to over 1000 volts. Each circuit has advantages and disadvantages, you need to pick the appropriate circuit for what you want to do.

Please post more info on your wireless test results.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 23, 2010, 10:08:21 PM

Dark pic I know but this is from my wireless pick up from the tdk. Working on running a JT I am reading over 5 volts!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 23, 2010, 10:16:59 PM

Quote from: stprue on February 23, 2010, 06:33:25 PM
WOW

16 micro amps

You could probable power that with an am radio circuit.

Very nice, kudoos indeed.

This is a great idea using the path from the emitter to the toroid, allows further harnessing of the EMF present in that area of the circuit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 23, 2010, 10:21:48 PM

Quote from: altrez on February 23, 2010, 10:08:21 PM
Dark pic I know but this is from my wireless pick up from the tdk. Working on running a JT I am A over 5 volts!

-Altrez

Thanks. What were the distances?

This is a wireless project I am working on that is using the TDK board. I am only getting about 5" so far.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on February 24, 2010, 12:25:59 AM

Quote from: stprue on February 23, 2010, 04:42:56 PM
Here is the video

8)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfzD1vgphoA

hey
i should have said something sooner but if you put a inductor between the two emitter wires it make it alot more adjustable and more powerfull..
i built this circuit trying to improve the gadgetmall design.. only to find the secondary is more powerfull than the
c-e connection and i think we can light jeanna's loa bulbs with alot less ma's..
i want to thank you for duplicating this..

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on February 24, 2010, 02:29:55 AM

@ All

I have made Joule thiefs before, but what is the maximum mA's or Amps that i can get at the output of a Joule thief using a 2n3055 transistor ?

Is it possible to get 12 volts with as high as 2+ Amps at the output ???

Because I would like to power 24x 285,000 mcd LED's, all bright and at the same brightness ! which would =
2400 mA's draw !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on February 24, 2010, 02:41:28 AM

There is only one reason I don't pick on JT, it doesn't claim OU that I know of but there could of been somebody who did. you still pay for what you give and take in a one to one fashion. mainly because the JT frequencies are not matched to the surrounding environment to get back twice what they capture.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 24, 2010, 06:22:51 AM

@Altrez,

Quote from: altrez on February 23, 2010, 07:52:13 AM
I have never read anywhere that the transistor replaces a spark-gap in a JT? Can you please post some links that sounds like a very interesting read! I am not 100% sure but I think the JT is basically just an oscillation circuit that ramps up the low voltage to a very high voltage. At a very low current draw from the battery.

It works with high frequency and high voltage to do some really interesting things :) I could be totally wrong here so Bill, Jim, Jeanna, xee2 please feel free to correct me!

-Altrez

very true Altrez, as the voltage goes up the current component falls to levels that are almost impossible to measure.

But, the other day I managed to create a spark gap, I did.

@Jeanna,
You asked me about 6 months ago if I had ever managed to make a fluro glow, as you havent seen any results from one of my JT.
Lets see if my prime time will allow me to post an image or two.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 24, 2010, 07:00:26 AM

@all,
Here is the way I connected up the output from the JT to power the fluro tube
And it is the same setup I used to try and recharge twenty one 12volt gell cells in series.

Be careful of it's output, its a bit savage on the fingers ha ha.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 24, 2010, 07:23:16 AM

Quote from: kooler on February 24, 2010, 12:25:59 AM
hey
i should have said something sooner but if you put a inductor between the two emitter wires it make it alot more adjustable and more powerfull..
i built this circuit trying to improve the gadgetmall design.. only to find the secondary is more powerfull than the
c-e connection and i think we can light jeanna's loa bulbs with alot less ma's..
i want to thank you for duplicating this..

robbie

I will try some inductors! I had a lot of fun building this circuit! It is one of the most efficient circuit I have built so far.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 24, 2010, 07:28:27 AM

@ xee2

One small step for man one giant leap for the joule thief, I am referring to your experiment using a transmitter coil and a pickup coil, seperated by a distance to transfer electrical energy through a space with out wires. :D

This is a very big achievement, well done.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 24, 2010, 07:41:01 AM

@all
FYI
Last night 7pm I hooked a 2.7v @10F maxcap to the .02ma circuit above and this morning it is still lit just as bright.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 24, 2010, 07:57:52 AM

Quote from: stprue on February 24, 2010, 07:41:01 AM
@all
FYI
Last night 7pm I hooked a 2.7v @10F maxcap to the .02ma circuit above and this morning it is still lit just as bright.

Hey Stprue! Great work, Can you please post a schematic you used? I want to build one tonight! i think I have all the parts

Thanks!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 24, 2010, 08:00:27 AM

Quote from: xee2 on February 23, 2010, 10:21:48 PM
Thanks. What were the distances?

This is a wireless project I am working on that is using the TDK board. I am only getting about 5" so far.

Wow that looks very nice xee2. i am getting over two foot. I will post some pics tonight. Again i am using 9 volts on the TDK so that could be why. And I am using super small coils.

Nice work,

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 24, 2010, 08:02:57 AM

Quote from: electricme on February 24, 2010, 06:22:51 AM
@Altrez,
very true Altrez, as the voltage goes up the current component falls to levels that are almost impossible to measure.

But, the other day I managed to create a spark gap, I did.

@Jeanna,
You asked me about 6 months ago if I had ever managed to make a fluro glow, as you havent seen any results from one of my JT.
Lets see if my prime time will allow me to post an image or two.

jim

Hey Jim! How have you been? Still working away on your EER?

Nice work on the floro!!!!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 24, 2010, 08:17:38 AM

@Altrez,
Thank you, yes, the EER is still happly working, the single LED is not so bright tonight.

I am currently working on using a JT to charge a bank of 242 volt cells, it's going a bit tough though.

There is a couple of things in the NS pipeline as well.

I havent seen Bill posting around, might fireup the landline in the morning and see if he is OK.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 24, 2010, 09:15:45 AM

Quote from: altrez on February 24, 2010, 07:57:52 AM
Hey Stprue! Great work, Can you please post a schematic you used? I want to build one tonight! i think I have all the parts

Thanks!

-Altrez

I used the schematic kooler posted and just added a maxcap when voltage would normally go in.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 24, 2010, 09:47:30 AM

Quote from: stprue on February 24, 2010, 09:15:45 AM
I used the schematic kooler posted and just added a maxcap when voltage would normally go in.

Do you have a link. I cant find it! Max cap when voltage would go in?

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 24, 2010, 10:05:44 AM

@altrez

Pg. 848 has the diagram reposted by SM

Just charge the cap and connect it to the + and - rails input of the circuit.

;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 24, 2010, 11:08:08 AM

Quote from: stprue on February 24, 2010, 10:05:44 AM
@altrez

Pg. 848 has the diagram reposted by SM

Just charge the cap and connect it to the + and - rails input of the circuit.

;)

Looks like it would run a long time lol. I need to order some of those transistors.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: zhak on February 24, 2010, 12:00:23 PM

Quote from: xee2 on February 23, 2010, 02:19:36 PM
JT does not put out 3.5 watts.

thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 24, 2010, 01:09:24 PM

@all

I am in the market for a function generator that will do pulsed waveforms with a good LCD display. I want to do some work with Joule Thief's and solid state generators and some deeper wireless testing plus more.

I do not want to spend to much. Here is two I have found.

http://www.mastechpowersupply.com/function-generator/5mhz-sweep-function-generator-/-signal-generator-/-frequency-counter/prod_53.html

http://www.tequipment.net/ProtekB8012.html?gclid=CJ6EuKXEi6ACFUFM5Qod7iPOew

I think either of theses will work but the first one looks better but it does not say anything about pulsed Wave forms? Can any function generator do pulsed square wave forms?

And for those of you that have them where did you buy it from? And is 2-3 MHz enough for this type of testing?

thanks!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 24, 2010, 05:36:53 PM

@kooler

Thanks for the inductor advice...make a huge difference!

Here are some pic's of the upgrade now only pulling uA and the led is brighter now!

wow...just noticed the uA pull is down to 13.7 and slowly lowering?????

Kooler has this happened with your setup! Doesn't make sence now 13.6

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 24, 2010, 05:41:10 PM

I forgot to mention that the LED was still lit when I got home....that's almost 24hrs before I stopped it for this test....12.9uA

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 24, 2010, 05:48:18 PM

Quote from: stprue on February 24, 2010, 05:36:53 PM
@kooler

Thanks for the inductor advice...make a huge difference!

Here are some pic's of the upgrade now only pulling uA and the led is brighter now!

wow...just noticed the uA pull is down to 13.7 and slowly lowering?????

Kooler has this happened with your setup! Doesn't make sence now 13.6

Hey stpure,

what type of inductor did you use and where did you place it?

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 24, 2010, 06:17:08 PM

101uH between emitter wires and the - rail of the input.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 24, 2010, 07:49:11 PM

@all

I boosted my output by raising consumption to 200 mili , yes 200 .

I know its high but i have fun .

This bulb is 6v 250mili it is on the secondary ...

I have replaced the resistor by a 4007 diode.

I got 67 volts instead of 30 v and draw went up to 200 mili.

Not that good , but i am aiming for the highest output not the lowest draw.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jonnydavro on February 24, 2010, 08:00:59 PM

@stprue.Nice experiments you are doing with the simple sec and koolers jt.I will have to try that.
You asked me about the wireless reciever circuit i use so i include some pics and the simple sec circuit for Altrez.
This circuit works well as it is hopefully on the same frequency as the transmitter.I use 9 blue 8000mcd leds and the 9 leds will light at 1m using the 1.5v phone charger.The most important thing with this reciever is the virtual ground of the negative of the last led in the string.This should be an aluminium baking tray or a large metal mass and if you can put it on the floor it works even better.
Hope this helps.Jonny

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 24, 2010, 08:55:09 PM

Quote from: jonnydavro on February 24, 2010, 08:00:59 PM
@stprue.Nice experiments you are doing with the simple sec and koolers jt.I will have to try that.
You asked me about the wireless reciever circuit i use so i include some pics and the simple sec circuit for Altrez.
This circuit works well as it is hopefully on the same frequency as the transmitter.I use 9 blue 8000mcd leds and the 9 leds will light at 1m using the 1.5v phone charger.The most important thing with this reciever is the virtual ground of the negative of the last led in the string.This should be an aluminium baking tray or a large metal mass and if you can put it on the floor it works even better.
Hope this helps.Jonny

Jonny,

Thank you so much for posting that!!! I am a bit confused by the receiver?

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jonnydavro on February 24, 2010, 09:45:16 PM

Hi Altrez.When you get a trigger coil,sometimes they will have three pins and sometimes four.Only three pins are used and if you get one with four it is just to help with mounting.
Is all you do is connect a croc lead to a metal bowl or tray and connect the end of the croc lead to one end of the primary coil of the trigger transformer.Do the same with the other end of the primary.
Get another croc lead and attach that to the third pin which is the hv output and feed that into an avramenko plug but the most important thing is to use a good virtual gound on the last leds negative leg.
The idea behind it is the simple sec is acting as a transmitter and to recieve the most energy,both transmitter and reciever have to be tuned to the same frequency and as both transmitting coils and recieving coils are the same,they should be fairly close.
Xee2 may have some ideas on how we can improove on this as he has experience in radio but it is quite a good place to start.Jonny.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on February 24, 2010, 09:46:23 PM

Quote from: stprue on February 24, 2010, 05:36:53 PM
@kooler

Thanks for the inductor advice...make a huge difference!

Here are some pic's of the upgrade now only pulling uA and the led is brighter now!

wow...just noticed the uA pull is down to 13.7 and slowly lowering?????

Kooler has this happened with your setup! Doesn't make sence now 13.6

yes..
that is the reason i set my at 1.5 ma and you can watch it go down from there with the same brightness..
i have one with a lr44 coin cell running that had 1.22 volts reading on it .. i got it out of my dead battery box.. haha
but its running for 34 hours it reads 1.45 volts now.. few more days will tell me more..
here is a new diagram of were i put the inductor..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 24, 2010, 10:05:29 PM

Mouser trigger coils:

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 24, 2010, 10:11:09 PM

Quote from: xee2 on February 24, 2010, 10:05:29 PM
trigger coils:

Just a note: Some trigger coils have independent coils, therefore they become electrically isolated. Winding with a higher ohmic resistance is the winding with more turns.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 24, 2010, 11:36:09 PM

@ altrez

I think this is correct. Touch both cans to start. Tune by changing spacing between cans.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 25, 2010, 06:08:30 AM

@all,
I mentioned last night I hadn't seen Bill posting a while, I spoke to him this morning from Australia, he is OK.

I think all the snow and cold is getting to everyone, it wont be long before you have summer and I get the cold :D

Hi to jonnydavro

hooroo
jim.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 25, 2010, 07:29:10 AM

@ Jonny, Kooler, xee, altrez

Jonny thank you so much for reply it clarified things for me!

Everyone a lot of great post happened after I went to bed. Very exciting!!!! :o

Kooler, that is a very long run for the circuit!! nice job! Could you try something for me....one of the differences I have tried is connecting the + rail of the voltage input to the + of the output/led rail! Not sure if it make a difference but since my versoin is a little different I would like to see what is does. (for me no inducto...yet, mica cap, switching doides on both rails and a not ideal 2N3904 transistor)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 25, 2010, 09:21:13 AM

Quote from: xee2 on February 24, 2010, 11:36:09 PM
@ altrez

I think this is correct. Touch both cans to start. Tune by changing spacing between cans.

thank you!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 25, 2010, 09:34:11 AM

@Altrez

Have you ordered your trigger coils yet? If not....and I know its more $ but could make for much better results!!!

http://www.amazing1.com/Graphics/CD45.jpg

From section!

http://www.amazing1.com/transformers.htm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sirmikey1 on February 25, 2010, 10:04:05 AM

@kooler,
36hrs... Did I put my foot in my mouth or what? :-[

@stprue,
I also looked at this bigger KV route, but xee2 mentioned that the primary coil resistance needs to be below .07 for any worthwhile results. Did you locate a datasheet for this one?

Regards,
Mikey

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 25, 2010, 10:21:34 AM

No I honestly didn't put to much energy into as I already have the a bunch of 4kv coils and my next purchase will be germanium doides.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on February 25, 2010, 11:59:26 AM

I remember a little about someone here talking about making cores with magnetite sand.........Fe304

Does anyone remember any results?

I have a few projects that will require ferrite cores ......the prices I am finding not good enough to be practical.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sirmikey1 on February 25, 2010, 01:32:02 PM

gary,
Stiffler's choice caught my attention, adjustable/removable ferrite rod coil which is running other air core coils.
SM

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 25, 2010, 01:52:11 PM

@Jonny

Your advice!

Thanks...Stew

;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 25, 2010, 03:45:36 PM

Backwards JT NEW/OLD

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 25, 2010, 03:47:33 PM

One thing I noticed is that the torriod doesnt seem to make that much of a difference. My 3-5-15 works as well as my biggo with way more winds! Lets see how long it lasts!!!

8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 25, 2010, 06:48:47 PM

Quote from: stprue on February 25, 2010, 03:47:33 PM
One thing I noticed is that the torriod doesnt seem to make that much of a difference. My 3-5-15 works as well as my biggo with way more winds! Lets see how long it lasts!!!

8)

What transistor are you using? Will a 2n2222 work?

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 25, 2010, 06:50:16 PM

Quote from: stprue on February 25, 2010, 01:52:11 PM
@Jonny

Your advice!

Thanks...Stew

;D

Nice! are you getting good distance yet?

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 25, 2010, 06:52:21 PM

Quote from: jonnydavro on February 24, 2010, 09:45:16 PM
Hi Altrez.When you get a trigger coil,sometimes they will have three pins and sometimes four.Only three pins are used and if you get one with four it is just to help with mounting.
Is all you do is connect a croc lead to a metal bowl or tray and connect the end of the croc lead to one end of the primary coil of the trigger transformer.Do the same with the other end of the primary.
Get another croc lead and attach that to the third pin which is the hv output and feed that into an avramenko plug but the most important thing is to use a good virtual gound on the last leds negative leg.
The idea behind it is the simple sec is acting as a transmitter and to recieve the most energy,both transmitter and reciever have to be tuned to the same frequency and as both transmitting coils and recieving coils are the same,they should be fairly close.
Xee2 may have some ideas on how we can improove on this as he has experience in radio but it is quite a good place to start.Jonny.

Thank you! I can get around two feet with the TDK circuit and small as in about the size of a half dollar receivers.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on February 25, 2010, 07:17:59 PM

Quote from: stprue on February 25, 2010, 07:29:10 AM

Kooler, that is a very long run for the circuit!! nice job! Could you try something for me....one of the differences I have tried is connecting the + rail of the voltage input to the + of the output/led rail! Not sure if it make a difference but since my versoin is a little different I would like to see what is does. (for me no inducto...yet, mica cap, switching doides on both rails and a not ideal 2N3904 transistor)

the reason i showed the video of it running at 1.5ma is because i figured some might see it if they built this but theres alot of spikes going back to the battery.. put a led on the battery and it will light.. anywhere on this circuit it will give enough power to light a led at 1.5ma..
even the resistor and the cap will light a led with no loss on the input..
thats why i asked xee2 were would the bemf be at.. because were it should be.. it isn't..
its a interesting circuit..

xee2
i put a bridge and cap on the secondarys and it would only charge up to 3.1 volts.. thats with no leds in it..
and the same volts with 4 leds in there..

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 25, 2010, 09:31:44 PM

@ altrez

The drawing of the simple SEC I posted was not correct. Corrected drawing below. I also tried to build this and it did not work for me. I hope you have better luck.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 25, 2010, 09:40:31 PM

@ kooler

Quote from: kooler on February 25, 2010, 07:17:59 PM
xee2
i put a bridge and cap on the secondarys and it would only charge up to 3.1 volts.. thats with no leds in it..
and the same volts with 4 leds in there..

Very strange. I have never seen 3 volts light a string of LEDs in series. You must have spikes at a higher voltage. I do not know why you are not seeing them.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 25, 2010, 09:45:31 PM

Quote from: xee2 on February 25, 2010, 09:31:44 PM
@ altrez

The drawing of the simple SEC I posted was not correct. Corrected drawing below. I also tried to build this and it did not work for me. I hope you have better luck.

xee2,

i don't have the 10kv trigger coil so I can not test it. However my TDK is still humming along perfectly. i tried a 4kv trigger coil i had here and it did not work. But the coil could be damaged. I just ordered some more. And will grab a few 10kvs from mouser.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 25, 2010, 09:54:53 PM

i just happen to have a

TDK 332P02201 ...

LAYING AROUND...

look good and hard at how it is wound ...

then i may teach you some real magic ...

it is an intresting winding config top coils are trifillar .. bottom pancake single ...

: )

stevie way it ?

i can swing that ..

it can be a compact device... we can always drop it in the shrinker ... : )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 25, 2010, 10:59:33 PM

@ kooler

Quote from: xee2 on February 25, 2010, 09:40:31 PM
Very strange. I have never seen 3 volts light a string of LEDs in series. You must have spikes at a higher voltage. I do not know why you are not seeing them.

Perhaps the spikes are on for such a small part of each cycle that they never add up to much extra voltage. They must be at a a pretty low rate in order to get the low power consumption. That is my best guess for now.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on February 25, 2010, 11:45:06 PM

i got me a newer camera coming soon.. so maybe i can get you guys some better scope shots..
i took my portable scope to a guy that has messed with radios for years and he checked it over..
he said it is fairly accurate.. but he said it was very sensitive .. he told me i probably should buy another scope probe to see if that helped ..
i meant to say earlier that if you want to light a led off the battery itself you will need to put a led on the secondary.. it won't pulse the battery till it has a load on the sec.. windings
it goes from 10khz no load to 5.3 khz with how ever many leds i want

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 26, 2010, 07:49:12 AM

Quote from: altrez on February 25, 2010, 06:48:47 PM
What transistor are you using? Will a 2n2222 A?

-Altrez

I'm waiting for my order to come in and it has msp/a transistors but right now I'm using a 2N3904

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 26, 2010, 07:58:35 AM

Quote from: stprue on February 25, 2010, 03:47:33 PM
One thing I noticed is that the torriod doesnt seem to make that much of a difference. My 3-5-15 works as well as my biggo with way more winds! Lets see how long it lasts!!!

8)

Well the new BJT did not last the night and I know it was because of the inductor. This morning I took off the inductor and recharged the maxcap. I also took off 1 LED also.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sirmikey1 on February 26, 2010, 08:13:30 AM

altrez and stprue,

Kooler and another member also recommended these
transistors a few weeks ago...

if you want a jt to run.. on nothing.. use this transistor.. mps2222a
If you can get some BC337-40 transistors I suspect they will work even
better than the mps2222A

M

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 26, 2010, 08:52:31 AM

Yes Sm you told me already and I also read it

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jonnydavro on February 26, 2010, 12:22:52 PM

Hi.I discovered a strange modification which significantly reduces the current draw on both my Simple sec exciter and also Slayers exciter and may be worth trying on a joulethief.This is what i did.I added an extra transistor and connected the collector of the new transistor to the base of the original and the base of the new transistor to the originals emmiter and left the new transistors emitter floating.The current draw drops by over half and output is not realy effected.Whats more is you can keep adding transistors like so and the current draw comes down with each addition.If anyone has any thoughts on why this floating transistor is having this effect i would be really interested.
I have also had a think about the wireless transmision aspect of these circuits and come up with an updated simple sec reciever circuit but it works equally well with slayers exciter.
I am getting an led to light at over 2 meters distance.
I also did an experiment with slayers exciter and got it lighting an led on a vinegar battery.
Here is a vid of todays experiments and circuit diagrams of power saving mods and wireless reciever circuit update.Jonny
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZWuRL4Nto8

@electricme.Hi Jim.Thanks for the hello and hope everything is good ai your neck of the woods.Jonny

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 26, 2010, 12:58:40 PM

Quote from: jonnydavro on February 26, 2010, 12:22:52 PM
Hi.I discovered a strange modification which significantly reduces the current draw on both my Simple sec exciter and also Slayers exciter and may be worth trying on a joulethief.This is what i did.I added an extra transistor and connected the collector of the new transistor to the base of the original and the base of the new transistor to the originals emmiter and left the new transistors emitter floating.The current draw drops by over half and output is not realy effected.Whats more is you can keep adding transistors like so and the current draw comes down with each addition.If anyone has any thoughts on why this floating transistor is having this effect i would be really interested.
I have also had a think about the wireless transmision aspect of these circuits and come up with an updated simple sec reciever circuit but it works equally well with slayers exciter.
I am getting an led to light at over 2 meters distance.
I also did an experiment with slayers exciter and got it lighting an led on a vinegar battery.
Here is a vid of todays experiments and circuit diagrams of power saving mods and wireless reciever circuit update.Jonny
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZWuRL4Nto8

@electricme.Hi Jim.Thanks for the hello and hope everything is good ai your neck of the woods.Jonny

Interesting. That part of the transistors acts as a diode; try replacing this transistor with a diode ( ground bar to base ). See if this produces the same results. I know that you've got the base locked up on those; the diode would thus appear to be installed incorrectly.

You may even try a low voltage zener or something. Never know, something crazy might happen.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on February 26, 2010, 03:07:23 PM

Quote from: stprue on February 23, 2010, 04:19:16 PM
@all

Koolers circuit works great! Here are a few pic and a video is soon to follow.

1.5v
Draw .07ma
7 LEDS
Transistor 2N3904

Hi stprue today I did this circuit but it was consuming about 0.25ma not 0.07ma. How did you acquire those results that you've said in consumption? Ok I had about nine leds and they lit very dim. Is it maybe I should use 470k pot cause I used a 220k?
Anyway thanks to kooler for the circuit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on February 26, 2010, 03:08:29 PM

@ jonnydavro

Quote from: jonnydavro on February 26, 2010, 12:22:52 PM
I am getting an led to light at over 2 meters distance.

Great progress. Thanks for sharing your results.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 26, 2010, 04:03:59 PM

Quote from: guruji on February 26, 2010, 03:07:23 PM
Hi stprue today I did this circuit but it was consuming about 0.25ma not 0.07ma. How did you acquire those results that you've said in consumption? Ok I had about nine leds and they lit very dim. Is it maybe I should use 470k pot cause I used a 220k?
Anyway thanks to kooler for the circuit.

I'm using different conponents! Not exactly like Koolers, I had to work with what I have. Don't forget that Kooler sets his to comsume that much so he could change it if he wanted to.

@Jonny

Fantastic progress, that circuit is so cool :o

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on February 26, 2010, 04:08:34 PM

Quote from: stprue link=topic=6123.msg230367#msg230367 A=1267218239
I'm using different conponents! Not exactly like Koolers, I had to work with what I have. Don't forget that Kooler sets his to comsume that much so he could change it if he wanted to.

@Jonny

Fantastic progress, that circuit is so cool :o

Hi Stprue thanks for response I used the 2n3904 too not as kooler maybe I should use a thinner or thicker gauge coil.
I was seeing your board photo and you put three caps with the transistor what are those?
Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jonnydavro on February 26, 2010, 04:19:35 PM

@Xee2 and stprue.Many thanks.
@Jadaro.Thanks for the reply.The first thing i did when i found this effect was think like you and swapped in a diode and the effect does not happen,only with a transistor so there is something crazy going on but what?Jonny

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 26, 2010, 05:28:36 PM

Quote from: guruji on February 26, 2010, 04:08:34 PM
Hi Stprue thanks for response I used the 2n3904 too not as kooler maybe I should use a thinner or thicker gauge coil.
I was seeing your board photo and you put three caps with the transistor what are those?
Thanks

Those caps were 221 but a 500v mica works better. Just try stuff!

P.S. the toroide was a 3.38" that I was using...right now I'm testing with a 1' goldmine same wire guage

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on February 26, 2010, 07:06:42 PM

hey guys
i just use the mps2222a because it will run with 0.2 volts.. don't know the min current..
the inductor is not needed.. you only need it if you have problems adjusting the pot..
i have had a tip31c run at 0.16 ma..
i try doing some windings more turns on the cap side..

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on February 26, 2010, 08:35:38 PM

Quote from: guruji on February 26, 2010, 03:07:23 PM
Hi stprue today I did this circuit but it was consuming about 0.25ma not 0.07ma. How did you acquire those results that you've said in consumption? Ok I had about nine leds and they lit very dim. Is it maybe I should use 470k pot cause I used a 220k?
Anyway thanks to kooler for the circuit.

Quote from: jonnydavro on February 26, 2010, 04:19:35 PM
@Jadaro.Thanks for the reply.The first thing i did when i found this effect was think like you and swapped in a diode and the effect does not happen,only with a transistor so there is something crazy going on but what?Jonny

It may be advisable to measure the ohmic resistance of the path and report / record the results.

Transistors have junction capacitance; cheap ones will inter operate their Collector and Emitter, one being operationally indistinguishable from the other.

I found a chilliqueen setup in which if I simply let a capacitor hook up off the base ( of the PNP ) connected to nothing, the circuit would function. Diagram here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8564.msg219117#msg219117 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8564.msg219117#msg219117) already; this is similar to the capacitive coupling of the metal pans and such, just on a smaller scale.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 27, 2010, 12:31:45 AM

8 JT cap charger board ...

: )

ist!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpkByZZVfvE

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on February 28, 2010, 06:05:13 AM

Hi everyone

I am looking for a 3 inch good toroid [/]so I can make a 1000-1500 volt joule thief, anyone point me in the right direction please !!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: IotaYodi on February 28, 2010, 07:49:51 AM

Heres a 5 inch od 3 inch id. They may have something closer to what you need.

http://www.electronicsurplus.com/ItemView.aspx?ItemID=140165

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on February 28, 2010, 08:51:29 AM

yes well another wild sun day and my kids are over ...

: )

its even wilder than usual ... considering i got my HELTH PAC half uncovered.. ; )

i used to think i needed large cores ... but since they only sell them in the US and they want an arm a leg and an ear for 1 ...

I TOLD THEM TO KEEP THERE GARBAGE ...

: )

TRY A 1" GOLD MINE ... : )

ALI MADE YOU A COIL! LMFAO!

TAKE AS MANY GM CORES AS YOU LIKE ... WRAP A WIRE ROUND THEM ...

DONE DEAL ..

IST!

you then use my jt board to charge the 8 caps that will self fire to the high volt primary rappid fire ...

8 caps dumped 1 primary ....

: )

silly humans!

maybe 1 day they get it ...

YEA I KICK MY FEET UP AND LAUGH AT GADGET ! AS HE SAYS I NEED TO USE MY W CORE ....

no i do not ! lol

what is the result if i have 1 wire 1 turn around 30 cores ... each core has a secondary on it ... and input voltage .. some where around 100vdc to 400vdc ...

yea i thought so ..........

: )

come on humans .... tell me it aint my work ...

: )

that is why it exisits in my mind .. NOT YOURS ... RIGHT ?~

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 01, 2010, 12:33:34 AM

@ slayer007

I tried your basic circuit and it works great. The LED on the phone charger looks bright so this is probably sucking power, but the tube is bright.

EDIT: terminal strip = Radio Shack #274-680 12-position mini European style (cut off)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 01, 2010, 12:39:16 AM

Xee2:

Have I been missing something with these circuits? Does that tube really light with just one wire and you don't have to be touching it? If it does, try a bigger tube and I'll bet it lights even brighter on the same power.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 01, 2010, 12:49:21 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on March 01, 2010, 12:39:16 AM
Does that tube really light with just one wire

Yes.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 01, 2010, 03:18:43 AM

The tube is brighter when it is lit with two wires.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Freezer on March 01, 2010, 04:47:28 AM

Quote from: xee2 on March 01, 2010, 03:18:43 AM

You are getting better at illustrator everyday. :)

Just some tips, to join two end points together, select each end point with the direct selection tool (a), and hit (ctrl+J) and the two points will now be joined. To eliminate a point, use the "delete anchor point tool" (-), which cleans it up. Also in this case you would want to use the grid and snap the points to the grid for precision. To enable the grid is (ctrl + ' ) To enable grid snap is (Ctrl+shift+'). You can change the grid spacing under edit/preferences.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: theredknight on March 01, 2010, 05:03:53 AM

Hi everyone,

I'm new here and am trying to play catchup to what you all are doing. I am working on reproducing Bill's 400 LEDs by creating my own Earth Battery + Fuji circuit Joule Thief + SuperCap => LEDs.

I have some questions, as there are so many posts to sort through! (awesome btw)

1) First, is this how I should connect these {EB => JT => SCap => LED} together? (see attached drawing) I'm not exactly sure how the Joule Thief adds voltage, but I'm only getting .9V and am wondering how to light a 3V LED on that.

2) Second, I'm looking at Stubblefield's coiled rod (Copper and Steel) to increase the Amperage. What is the voltage stats on getting a Carbon Rod and Magnesium or other substances? What is best here?

3) How long does it take to charge the Capacitors to light the LED? How long did they stay lit for you all?

4) In using the NOAA's Geophysical Data, it matters if you bury one rod up on top of a hill rather than below it seems. This is the Vertical Data yes? Does one put the Copper on the more positive side in my location? (which would be Up, North and East?)

That is it for now. I'll see what I can't do with testing but I'm still getting my fuji apart and re-soldered and was hoping I had my plans here right.

Thanks!
~RK

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 01, 2010, 05:28:05 AM

your all gonna love this one ...

: )

ist!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8acSU4WwHuQ

btw

here a few pics ... love the light saber ... Skylar made today ... ; )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sirmikey1 on March 01, 2010, 08:56:20 AM

Slayer's Exciter, Lidmotor did some scope shots.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioOIT8hRv6Q
M

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 01, 2010, 10:54:48 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on March 01, 2010, 12:39:16 AM
Xee2:

Have I been missing something with these circuits? Does that tube really light with just one wire and you don't have to be touching it? If it does, try a bigger tube and I'll bet it lights even brighter on the same power.

Bill

Hey Bill!

About 6 pages back I posted a picture of a 8 foot long tube being lit with just one end connected and its really bright. It can also run 50 LEDS at the same time with no extra current draw. Oh and 20 LEDS wireless at 2 foot! Again no extra current draw.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 01, 2010, 10:57:14 AM

Quote from: xee2 on March 01, 2010, 12:33:34 AM
@ slayer007

I tried your basic circuit and it works great. The LED on the phone charger looks bright so this is probably sucking power, but the tube is bright.

EDIT: terminal strip = Radio Shack #274-680 12-position mini European style (cut off)

Very nice work. Thank you so much for sharing and the great drawings are a huge help!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 01, 2010, 10:58:12 AM

Quote from: theredknight on March 01, 2010, 05:03:53 AM
Hi everyone,

I'm new here and am trying to play catchup to what you all are doing. I am working on reproducing Bill's 400 LEDs by creating my own Earth Battery + Fuji circuit Joule Thief + SuperCap => LEDs.

I have some questions, as there are so many posts to sort through! (awesome btw)

1) First, is this how I should connect these {EB => JT => SCap => LED} together? (see attached drawing) I'm not exactly sure how the Joule Thief adds voltage, but I'm only getting .9V and am wondering how to light a 3V LED on that.

2) Second, I'm looking at Stubblefield's coiled rod (Copper and Steel) to increase the Amperage. What is the voltage stats on getting a Carbon Rod and Magnesium or other substances? What is best here?

3) How long does it take to charge the Capacitors to light the LED? How long did they stay lit for you all?

4) In using the NOAA's Geophysical Data, it matters if you bury one rod up on top of a hill rather than below it seems. This is the Vertical Data yes? Does one put the Copper on the more positive side in my location? (which would be Up, North and East?)

That is it for now. I'll see what I can't do with testing but I'm still getting my fuji apart and re-soldered and was hoping I had my plans here right.

Thanks!
~RK

RK

I can't answer most of your questions but I can tell you that in your drawing the JT and the cap need to be switched.

Bill was able to light all those LEDs because he was using pulses from
a JT
The way you have it set up you would be powering the LEDs with DC from the cap . All your LEDs would have to be in parallel .......the strings of LEDs like bill used are in series.

if your earth battery is large enough to run a JT directly It would be interesting to add another JT to your drawing after the cap to drive the LEDs

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 01, 2010, 11:36:54 AM

Quote from: theredknight on March 01, 2010, 05:03:53 AM
Hi everyone,

I'm new here and am trying to play catchup to what you all are doing. I am working on reproducing Bill's 400 LEDs by creating my own Earth Battery + Fuji circuit Joule Thief + SuperCap => LEDs.

I have some questions, as there are so many posts to sort through! (awesome btw)

1) First, is this how I should connect these {EB => JT => SCap => LED} together? (see attached drawing) I'm not exactly sure how the Joule Thief adds voltage, but I'm only getting .9V and am wondering how to light a 3V LED on that.

2) Second, I'm looking at Stubblefield's coiled rod (Copper and Steel) to increase the Amperage. What is the voltage stats on getting a Carbon Rod and Magnesium or other substances? What is best here?

3) How long does it take to charge the Capacitors to light the LED? How long did they stay lit for you all?

4) In using the NOAA's Geophysical Data, it matters if you bury one rod up on top of a hill rather than below it seems. This is the Vertical Data yes? Does one put the Copper on the more positive side in my location? (which would be Up, North and East?)

That is it for now. I'll see what I can't do with testing but I'm still getting my fuji apart and re-soldered and was hoping I had my plans here right.

Thanks!
~RK

Welcome to our group. Gary is correct. You take the output from your EB to the supercaps or B-cap (I have used both) and that fills the cap(s) and the cap(s) run the JT circuit. My set-up puts out about 2 volts @ about 19 mA's. There are many large spikes involved with my EB or EER as we now call them. We have found that these spikes will fill a supercap above what is measured as the EER output. My b-cap is rated at 2.7 volts and I can fill it, fairly quickly, (1-3 hours) with only "2" volts input. This is because my DMM does not pick up the spikes when I measure the 2 volt output.

There are 3 very good topics on setting up your EB and if you post your questions about the set-up alignments in one of them, it will save the folks here from reading about it.

Now, for setting up the Fuji or winding your own JT circuit, this is the place. I even think there is a topic now for the EB running a JT. (Hard to keep up with it all)

Please feel free to pm me with any questions you might have and I will try to help in any way that I can.

Again, welcome. This is a very cool place with tons of information and some very intelligent, creative folks. (Not me)

Bill

PS The modified Fuji will put out over 350 volts so if you run that into a low voltage supercap, most are 2.7 or 5.5 volts, it will blow up. Be careful.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 01, 2010, 12:30:20 PM

Quote

PS The modified Fuji will put out over 350 volts so if you run that into a low voltage supercap, most are 2.7 or 5.5 volts, it will blow up. Be careful.

Bill.

This would be true if the spikes were big enough.

With a small battery powered JT I don't think that there is any real risk other than the possibility of damaging the Ucap by overcharging it.
Gadget said a while back that the screw on the - side popps out if the pressure gets to high inside it.

I tried charging my Ucap with half a dozen different JTs
I can charge them.........but not as fast as I would like.

gary

Edit
A couple of the JTs that I tried were over 350 V

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 01, 2010, 12:45:23 PM

Gary:

Are you saying that you can try to charge a 2.7 volt b-cap (or supercap) with 350 volts or more? As long as you monitor the cap's charge and don't go above the rated 2.7 volts? (Overfill it)

I have never tried this myself so I have no idea. I just thought (assumed) it was way too many volts. But, is it because we have not a lot of power on the output?

If this is true, then I have some things I have always wanted to try but did not want to destroy my caps.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 01, 2010, 02:42:55 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on March 01, 2010, 12:45:23 PM
Gary:

Are you saying that you can try to charge a 2.7 volt b-cap (or supercap) with 350 volts or more? As long as you monitor the cap's charge and don't go above the rated 2.7 volts? (Overfill it)

Bill

Exactly

we are working with impulses here so some things are a little different.

A meter on the cap reads rock solid DC

Like you said.........just don't overcharge them.

I know you already know this.........so for others .........do not assume that you can limit the voltage it will charge to by keeping the voltage you read coming out of the JT low ........volt meters do not read the spikes .......and the spikes are what is doing most of the charging.

I am currently charging a 12 V battery with a JT.
The voltage across my bridge is 6.1V AC
The battery voltage is 12.08 and climbing slowly

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on March 01, 2010, 03:29:38 PM

Hi guys I cannot understand that when I try certain circuits that they claim certain low consumption in their circuit on my side I cannot find one >:( All circuits that I tried are not what they claimed.
Hope someone give me explanation.
Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 01, 2010, 03:46:56 PM

@ guruji

Quote from: guruji on March 01, 2010, 03:29:38 PM
Hi guys I cannot understand that when I try certain circuits that they claim certain low consumption in their circuit on my side I cannot find one >:( All circuits that I tried are not what they claimed.
Hope someone give me explanation.
Thanks

I made the following replication of kooler's circuit and it worked for me. I think the meters may not read the pulsed current accurately. So meter may read several times more current but that is still very low. The current must be low to have it run on just the capacitor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on March 01, 2010, 05:30:08 PM

Great work xee!

Here is my latest ;D Funny thing is with a certain resistance 1 led will draw 22uA or 10 leds will draw the same.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 01, 2010, 11:30:07 PM

Quote from: stprue on March 01, 2010, 05:30:08 PM
Great work xee!

Here is my latest ;D Funny thing is with a certain resistance 1 led will draw 22uA or 10 leds will draw the same.

Hey great job. looks great! Thank you for posting that.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 01, 2010, 11:34:08 PM

Quote from: xee2 on March 01, 2010, 03:46:56 PM
@ guruji

I made the following replication of kooler's circuit and it worked for me. I think the meters may not read the pulsed current accurately. So meter may read several times more current but that is still very low. The current must be low to have it run on just the capacitor.

Nice.. Have you tested how long it will run? I have a theory but don't have the parts to make this circuit yet.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on March 02, 2010, 12:04:28 AM

Quote from: altrez on March 01, 2010, 11:34:08 PM
Nice.. Have you tested how long it will run? I have a theory but don't have the parts to make this circuit yet.

-Altrez

the one xee2 posted.. i have solder one up it has been running since 1-14-10
it stills shows 1.48 volts the same as the day i stuck the battery in..
the new circuit i made runs the leds alot brighter but a bit more ma's
as you all seen that stprue has running..
i have a video i will post soon of the circuit running a led on the battery side..

out
robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on March 02, 2010, 01:07:33 AM

here is the video i talked of
better camera
it has a 265,000 mcd led on the battery rail..
but the battery led will not light till you have a load on the secondary

http://www.youtube.com/user/koolerization (http://www.youtube.com/user/koolerization)

hope this helps

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: theredknight on March 02, 2010, 02:29:18 AM

Hey thanks everyone for clearing up my confusions as to this circuit. I'll be sure to post in the Earth Battery forum the questions I have there.

Once I get this working, I'll pop back in here and follow your plans on getting a better joule thief up.

I wanted to post a new picture fixing my old picture so I didn't lead anyone astray. This is the one you said would work (and wouldn't blow up capacitors) yes?

thanks again
~RK

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 02, 2010, 02:45:50 AM

Quote from: theredknight on March 02, 2010, 02:29:18 AM
Hey thanks everyone for clearing up my confusions as to this circuit. I'll be sure to post in the Earth Battery forum the questions I have there.

Once I get this working, I'll pop back in here and follow your plans on getting a better joule thief up.

I wanted to post a new picture fixing my old picture so I didn't lead anyone astray. This is the one you said would work (and wouldn't blow up capacitors) yes?

thanks again
~RK

RK:

Yes, please stick around here too as there are some great new low amp draw circuits being designed and experimented with. They will have many applications of which the EB is but one.

Jeanna's circuit, with the large coil, has a much higher output than I ever got from my modified Fuji. The Fuji is cheap and easy to get started with which is why I was using them back then for my experiments. I have since built 2 of Jeanna's circuits and now I am looking into kooler's, stprue's, Altrez, and Xee2's circuits as well. Once you wind your first basic JT circuit, there will be no stopping you.

I look forward to seeing your work.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on March 02, 2010, 07:37:30 AM

Quote from: kooler on March 02, 2010, 12:04:28 AM
the one xee2 posted.. i have solder one up it has been running since 1-14-10
it stills shows 1.48 volts the same as the day i stuck the battery in..
the new circuit i made runs the leds alot brighter but a bit more ma's
as you all seen that stprue has running..
i have a video i will post soon of the circuit running a led on the battery side..

out
robbie

If you are lighting off the battery side you must be getting BEMF into the battery which is keeping your battery charged! This is not working on my circuit with the maxcap but I am not using the right transistor yet! I should get my next shipment of parts in, in a few days.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on March 02, 2010, 07:42:22 AM

Quote from: kooler on March 02, 2010, 01:07:33 AM
here is the video i talked of
better camera
it has a 265,000 mcd led on the battery rail..
but the battery led will not light till you have a load on the secondary

http://www.youtube.com/user/koolerization (http://www.youtube.com/user/koolerization)

hope this helps

robbie

Nice vid Kooler, I know that those 265, 000mcd leds are harder to light up

;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 02, 2010, 10:19:33 AM

Quote from: kooler on March 02, 2010, 12:04:28 AM
the one xee2 posted.. i have solder one up it has been running since 1-14-10
it stills shows 1.48 volts the same as the day i stuck the battery in..
the new circuit i made runs the leds alot brighter but a bit more ma's
as you all seen that stprue has running..
i have a video i will post soon of the circuit running a led on the battery side..

out
robbie

Thank you Robbie,

You are doing some great work! Can you please post a schematic of your new circuit? I have placed an order for the msa transistors you posted. I want to do some side by side tests with your circuit and a normal JT with a lux meter.

I think you are on to something that will prove to be a self runner. I am working on the simulations in my mind.

Very Great work!

Thank so much,

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sirmikey1 on March 02, 2010, 02:00:07 PM

Quote from: altrez on March 02, 2010, 10:19:33 AMI think you are on to something that will prove to be a self runner.

Like maybe one coil bemf is powering LED and other coil bemf is returning all or part of the joule, or somesuch. Quite amazing, really; like maybe the JT should have been designed this way, originally. I still maintain that the B&E diode effect was originally causing more shorting, adding load. If some of us can wrap our head around it...

Thanks Kooler, major breakthrough.

Mikey

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on March 02, 2010, 03:20:04 PM

Hi Kooler today I did your Bemf JT it works good but I am using a 2n3904 tr and consumes about 7ma. Maybe I should try those transistors mentioned Mpsa06 or Bc337 and see consumption rate.
Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on March 02, 2010, 03:57:37 PM

guru

I have been using the same transistor, are you tuning with a POT?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on March 02, 2010, 04:52:38 PM

Quote from: stprue on March 02, 2010, 03:57:37 PM
guru

I have been using the same A, are you tuning with a POT?

Hi Stprue yes but using a 220k. Should I increase resistance pot?
Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on March 02, 2010, 05:01:06 PM

Well mine is a 200k and I have been wondering the same thing! Sorry I couldnt be of help

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on March 02, 2010, 10:25:17 PM

i have noticed the mps transistors work alot better than 2n transistors
i have watched a mps2222a work at 0.2 volts.. my first earth battery

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on March 03, 2010, 02:16:45 AM

:) Hello everone...

I'm finding it fairly hard to find a nice large toroid here in Australia, so I have done the next best thing...
I am using my trusty little 1.4"(35mm) ferrite toroid, I am currently using 2x of these toroids in a JT
with 1x (used) AA battery, so far achieved 925 volts with only 140 turn secondary,
my 2x toroids are not connected in series
and I'm very happy with those results, but I am going to try to get a bit more volts,
I am lighting an 8 Watt 220-240v AC CFL twist, quite nicely,
with 2x (used) AA batterys it lights even brighter at 1248 volts, I will soon post some pictures
of my light...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 03, 2010, 07:59:25 AM

I was able to light a fluorescent tube wirelessly using slayer007 circuit. But tube ends need to be less than an inch from the metal plates.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on March 03, 2010, 08:24:48 AM

Fantastic xee did you wind the coils in opposite directions? Also at 6v what is the circuit drawing for ma?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 03, 2010, 08:40:29 AM

Quote from: stprue on March 03, 2010, 08:24:48 AM
Fantastic xee did you wind the A in opposite directions? Also at 6v what is the circuit drawing for ma?

I am not sure which way coils go. Just reverse one set of leads if it does not work. I have not measured current but it is high. I gave up using phone charger because the batteries would only last less than 1/2 hour.

EDIT: Cell phone charger will light tube wirelessly if battery is not too dead. So current is probably about 200 mA.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on March 03, 2010, 09:08:44 AM

Quote from: xee2 on March 03, 2010, 08:40:29 AM
I am not sure which way A go. Just reverse one set of leads if it does not work. I have not measured current but it is high. I gave up using phone charger because the batteries would only last less than 1/2 hour.

Nice job Xee2.

But you need to make a bigger L1 coil.The L1 coil I'm using is 3.25" diameter x 14" long 23ga. mag wire 4.80mH.
You should also make the L2 adjustable so you can move it up or down the L1 coil to find the sweat spot.
The L2 coil I'm using is a pancake coil 21ga. plastic coated wire 9 turns .05mH

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 03, 2010, 12:24:14 PM

Quote from: slayer007 on March 03, 2010, 09:08:44 AM
Nice job Xee2.

But you need to make a bigger L1 A.The L1 coil I'm using is 3.25" diameter x 14" long 23ga. mag wire 4.80mH.
You should also make the L2 adjustable so you can move it up or down the L1 coil to find the sweat spot.
The L2 coil I'm using is a pancake coil 21ga. plastic coated wire 9 turns .05mH

Thanks for the info. This was just to see if I could get something to work. I will try some other coils. I also need to experiment with field detectors and this will allow me to do that.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 03, 2010, 03:04:21 PM

Quote from: xee2 on March 03, 2010, 07:59:25 AM
I was able to light a fluorescent tube wirelessly using slayer007 circuit. But tube ends need to be less than an inch from the metal plates.

Good job xee2!!!!! I have been so busy with work I have not had anytime to post pics. I switched over to using a different transformer and will post some pics tonight or this weekend.

Take care,

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 03, 2010, 07:34:51 PM

Quote from: theredknight on March 02, 2010, 02:29:18 AM

I wanted to post a new picture fixing my old picture so I didn't lead anyone astray. This is the one you said would work (and wouldn't blow up capacitors) yes?

RK

Your picture looks great except for one thing.
JTs don't provide high amperage output

I don't think think that as a group that we have ever came up with a description or name for their output.
Maybe the best description is that it is spikey
It is my opinion that the spikes are a mini version of what Tesla called a disruptive discharge.
In the circuit that you have drawn the LEDs are lit up by the spikes......not by normal current .

About blowing up your cap .

This circuit will not blow them up with normal operation .......but it can blow them up by building up to much voltage.
So watch it closely ........or make a voltage limiting circuit of some kind

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on March 03, 2010, 08:05:03 PM

a pic of my new circuit.. two toroids with secondarys and a led on the input

http://img705.imageshack.us/i/gedc0005.jpg/ (http://img705.imageshack.us/i/gedc0005.jpg/)

oh forgot to mention it is running on 0.80 ma's

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 03, 2010, 08:50:25 PM

Quote from: kooler on March 03, 2010, 08:05:03 PM
a pic of my new circuit.. two toroids with secondarys and a A on the input

http://img705.imageshack.us/i/gedc0005.jpg/ (http://img705.imageshack.us/i/gedc0005.jpg/)

oh forgot to mention it is running on 0.80 ma's

A lot of light for 0.8 mA. Your LEDs look like they are in parallel, not in series.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on March 03, 2010, 09:00:30 PM

Quote from: xee2 on March 03, 2010, 08:50:25 PM
A lot of light for 0.8 mA. Your LEDs look like they are in parallel, not in series.

xee2
they are in parallel..
if you notice the toroid on the right is being pulse from the pos side of the battery..
i need to buy me some leds.. i never thought i would be playing with them this much..

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on March 04, 2010, 03:47:56 PM

Quote from: kooler on March 03, 2010, 08:05:03 PM
a pic of my new circuit.. two toroids with secondarys and a led on the input

http://img705.imageshack.us/i/gedc0005.jpg/ (http://img705.imageshack.us/i/gedc0005.jpg/)

oh forgot to mention it is running on 0.80 ma's

Nice job Kooler

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on March 04, 2010, 06:47:15 PM

http://freeenergyinfo.narod2.ru/induction_heating/
:) :) :) :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 05, 2010, 12:41:01 AM

: )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3C7DECI0jU&NR=1

thought it fit .....

and so it does

W

im still working on the rest of the STARSHIP generator.. / motor .. ; )

and i have taken 200 plus pics of the entire build of the unit! 1 step at a time start to finish .. but im not done it yet when i finish it i will post the video

what i have showen so far is only half of it .. it runs on the boost cap .. : )
i have a 4 min quick charger ... for the BOOST CAP!

im kinda thinking this unit will push a bunch of amps ... and it is high freq! as per my winding configuration ..

anyhow just shareing ... more

: )

i have also been scratching my health pac .. and discover a heart shaped garnet red ... with a crystal dimond spear through it ...

BABY CUPID shooting crystal dimond arrows from above!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on March 05, 2010, 12:54:41 AM

Hi folks, Hi freeenergyinfo. I thought about this myself, since in the joule thief or equivalent circuit even my laminated core gets rather hot at certain frequencies and power inputs. So why not put in a core thats gonna make the most heat for the buck, though some provision for taking the heat off so the coils dont get too hot. Thanks for bringing that idea up. Any plans to try this with a joule thief type circuit or has anyone here tried this. Good tune innovation station.
peace love light
Tyson :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 05, 2010, 02:24:27 AM

@all

I have been able to run a 12 volts motor on my TPJT it run fast and strong enough to keep sniping against the iron core of my coil .

I made a schematic of my motor connection 5 diodes and a cap ...

It really works well. The magnets are small neo under the duck tape .

Transistor use tip3055 seems to work good.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on March 05, 2010, 08:26:49 AM

@MK1

thats a powerful coil you have there powering a 12 v motor! Is it your highest preformer?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: ramset on March 05, 2010, 08:55:11 AM

Mark
Seems Amazing!
How much power does it normally take to run that motor?

What is your input power now?

Your like a TPJT scientist!

Thanks for sharing your hard work!

Chet

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 05, 2010, 03:04:11 PM

Quote from: stprue on March 05, 2010, 08:26:49 AM
@MK1

thats a powerful coil you have there powering a 12 v motor! Is it your highest preformer?

Yes it is for now , its not perfect yet it still have room to grow another 40 % .

I noticed also that on the basic led for the jt lights regardless of the jt coil orientation , but the secondary only work with the coil one way , this may bring conflicting results .

I get around 67 volts from that one , but the load from the secondary manifest it self in the jt load.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 05, 2010, 03:10:31 PM

Quote from: ramset on March 05, 2010, 08:55:11 AM
Mark
Seems Amazing!
How much power does it normally take to run that motor?

What is your input power now?

Your like a TPJT scientist!

Thanks for sharing your hard work!

Chet

Thanks , i still did not work on lowering the input , It take anything from 70 to 180 mili to get good results , the problem here i think is the jt.

Once i will be confident that the over all design is viable , i will turn to another dead battery for power 9v.

The basic jt consumes to much energy at those freq.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 05, 2010, 06:23:50 PM

here is part #2 the wireing of the STARSHIP GENERATOR

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fb6LV4vxzEo

today i discovered the PLASMA LASER SHEILD ... : )

ist

the device showen in the video is AKA the 9 freq jt power supply ; )

there no more driveing or switching units required PEROID!

output is rectified compounded in a cap .. and self fires through a plasma gap .. to the primary of the OUTPUT TRANSFORMER ... all 9 feeds go to the 1 primary

each feed has a diffrent capaticance .. ;)

IE..... 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9uf ......

think bout that ....

this is a NPN unit ... there is STILL PNP they work togather ....

looks like an INTERFERIENCE PATTERN TO ME :)

oooo so quantum .... ; )

W

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sirmikey1 on March 05, 2010, 11:29:08 PM

I'm having to physically put this stuff down due to other things going on, but I still can't resist following this thread daily. The recent move towards air and adjustable core has opened up more possibilities, for sure. Has me wondering if the spikes in this new realm might prove to charge certain caps or batteries faster, or fast enough to keep up with significant loads. Where's the beef?
Regards,
Mikey

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on March 06, 2010, 12:50:55 AM

Quote from: sirmikey1 on March 05, 2010, 11:29:08 PM
Where's the beef?
Regards,
Mikey

don't mess with wendy's.. ..
invest on burgerking the second best in fastfood.. i don't eat it but alot of people do..
i know a couple guys that bought stock in the king three years ago and made a lick this year..

oh i got another video coming in a min or so.. you might like it mikey..

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on March 06, 2010, 01:03:06 AM

a little something new here..
some of you may find it interesting..
heres the video..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqbPwhVarb4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqbPwhVarb4)

and here is the schematic ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 06, 2010, 02:49:06 AM

@ kooler

Your circuit shows the LEDs in series but in the video they look like they are in parallel.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 06, 2010, 02:51:42 AM

I did a few more tests with slayer007 circuit. As he has said, the turns ratio is critical.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on March 06, 2010, 09:10:58 AM

Quote from: xee2 on March 06, 2010, 02:49:06 AM
@ kooler

Your circuit shows the LEDs in series but in the video they look like they are in parallel.

yea thanks i just fixed it..
don't know why i keep doing that

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 06, 2010, 11:11:15 AM

@ slayer007

This is an untested suggestion that should allow easier control of feedback.

EDIT: I tried this and it did not work very well. I am not sure why.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on March 06, 2010, 06:35:53 PM

Thanks Xee2 I also tried something very close to what your showing.But my results were not that impressive.

In this video I just wanted to show the range the 20w FL will stay lit before going out totally.(It was around 12")
I also have a second tower 15" away from the main tower.
The L2 coil on the main coil is adjusted for the strongest output on the second receiver tower.
This test was ran off the cell phone charger that uses one AA battery 1.5v and puts out around 5.5v.

Here is the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrsvdVtvJDE

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on March 07, 2010, 03:24:36 AM

Hi folks, so does anyone have any thoughts on freeenergyinfo's idea about induction heater or has anyone tried this already, thanks.
peace love light
Tyson

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on March 07, 2010, 05:53:17 AM

I missed that one.

Wonder what is the input/output ratio of the induction heater.

Regards....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Doug1 on March 07, 2010, 06:14:51 AM

If you getting such high efficiencies why not use a pelteir to generate heat. Then you can construct a mini geothermal unit even to the extent of experimenting with different liquids instead of freon.water and ethonal aka moonshine are pretty cheep taste good to.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 07, 2010, 10:04:57 AM

Quote from: Doug1 on March 07, 2010, 06:14:51 AM
If you getting such high efficiencies why not use a pelteir to generate heat. Then you can construct a mini geothermal unit even to the extent of experimenting with different liquids instead of freon.water and ethonal aka moonshine are pretty cheep taste good to.

i hear the moon shine will give you heart burn ....

: )

i got a heater coil ...

made it a few years back its the one i sopke of way back ...

the wires remain cold... i just reciently found it !

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Doug1 on March 07, 2010, 11:34:27 AM

Heart burn? Not if you run it through the still 3 times.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 07, 2010, 11:37:29 AM

In my replication attempt of slayer007 SEC I have found that capacitive coupling between leads is effects circuit performance. It seems that the 60 turn coil wants to have some capacitive coupling between its ends (provided by twisting lead wires) but not too much. The following is what seemed to work best for me.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sirmikey1 on March 07, 2010, 11:50:58 AM

xee2,
Did you try what slayer recommended? Here's his post.
SM

Quote from: slayer007 on March 03, 2010, 09:08:44 AMBut you need to make a bigger L1 coil.The L1 coil I'm using is 3.25" diameter x 14" long 23ga. mag wire 4.80mH. You should also make the L2 adjustable so you can move it up or down the L1 coil to find the sweat spot. The L2 coil I'm using is a pancake coil 21ga. plastic coated wire 9 turns .05mH

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 07, 2010, 12:21:26 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDY6bWT5oTM

for the ones that GOT THERE TRUCK STUCK IN THE MUD!

TRUCK AFTER TRUCK THEY ALL GOT STUCK!

conola seed for traction ! some of the best at that !

; )

say eh eh yah!

GO CANADA!

: )

william!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 07, 2010, 12:23:38 PM

Quote from: xee2 on March 07, 2010, 11:37:29 AM
In my replication attempt of slayer007 SEC I have found that capacitive coupling between leads is effects circuit performance. It seems that the 60 turn coil wants to have some capacitive coupling between its ends (provided by twisting lead wires) but not too much. The following is what seemed to work best for me.

IT may be more fruitful to put a capacitor across those leads - something very small, because this is effectively what twisting the leads does; you may find you can get more benefits than you would by using a capacitor than twists might allow for.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 07, 2010, 08:48:42 PM

Quote from: Cap-Z-ro on March 07, 2010, 05:53:17 AM
I missed that one.

Wonder what is the input/output ratio of the induction heater.

Regards....

In the big induction furnaces that they use to melt iron .......the iron that they are melting is like a one piece winding

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 07, 2010, 09:00:55 PM

Hi everybody,
I have been camping and will do some more this coming week.

I just want to say 2 things:
1- my jtc lights are awesome!!
3 jtc lights and the whole (13 foot = small) camper is lit up in the way a normal lit up room is. The batteries last and I can read or do whatever and see perfectly... day after day.

2- I also recharged a crystalized dead NiCd battery with the spikes and after the 7th or so day, the battery started to keep the charge. This is after watching it hold less and less with each recharge.
So the most the jtc lit up with this previously bad battery was 3 hours. It charged up to 1.36v and lit the light.
This was the BJT light spot.

Then one day I closed the box down and the thing got shorted somewhere.
I recharged it so the battery would be ok, but have not continued cycling it.
I am very encouraged by this as it follows the bedini system of reconditioning and recharging, only, I am using a joule thief to do this.

There will be much to catch up on when I return.
This group is still experimenting with very exciting ideas.

See you when I get back ;),

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 08, 2010, 10:43:32 AM

i whipped up a design last night ...

6" iron pipe ... sliced ... 4 6' wires ... 3 turn per lap devided by 3's

so you have 12 coils total 3 are as 1 and lapped ..

this gets bridges b4 the coils ...

enjoy ...

maybe ill build it .. maybe i wont!

W

this is MY stage too ... : ) for my !PAC POWER RING : p

ILL THROW ONE TOGATHER ON A GOLD MINE JUST SO YOU CAN VISIUALIZE HOW I WILL WINDE IT!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 08, 2010, 11:04:45 AM

This fellow used a multiplier to go from 20k volts to 80k. I believe he used a Cockcroft-Walton multiplier for this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CltmVL4UguA&feature=grec (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CltmVL4UguA&feature=grec)

His arcs are huge and actually look a lot like flames to me rather than sparks.

This is unreal and may be related to our work here.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 08, 2010, 12:45:22 PM

@all

I made a new video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiLcbTBewhw

Running the motor/generator , detail on the connections ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 08, 2010, 02:09:46 PM

CosmicFarmer was able to get a large reduction in current draw using the following addition to the slayer007 SEC circuit. When I tried it with a 6 volt battery supply the current was 150 mA without the CosmicFarmer addition and 115 mA with the CosmicFarmer addition. So it really does decrease current draw. The output voltage appeared to be the same in both cases since both would light a fluorescent tube.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on March 08, 2010, 02:23:37 PM

Fantastic job Mark. I love the song too ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 08, 2010, 03:02:16 PM

@ Mk1

Quote from: stprue on March 08, 2010, 02:23:37 PM
Fantastic job Mark. I love the song too ;D

Ditto.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gyulasun on March 08, 2010, 05:40:13 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 08, 2010, 12:45:22 PM
@all

I made a new video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiLcbTBewhw

Running the motor/generator , detail on the connections ...

Hi MK1,

In your video you wrote at 0:16 "On the first try I made it an X winding, the pickup coil gave me 0 Volts but still could light 24 leds in parallel"
Also, at 0:33 you wrote: "0 volts coil (X) At work!"

Did you mean that your voltage meter did not show any voltage, yet the the leds were lit?
Or you meant the X (crossing) wires do not induce voltage, yet the leds are lit?

Thanks, Gyula

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 08, 2010, 06:38:44 PM

Quote from: xee2 on March 08, 2010, 02:09:46 PM
CosmicFarmer was able to get a large reduction in current draw using the following addition to the slayer007 SEC circuit. When I tried it with a 6 volt battery supply the current was 150 mA without the CosmicFarmer addition and 115 mA with the CosmicFarmer addition. So it really does decrease current draw. The output voltage appeared to be the same in both cases since both would light a fluorescent tube.

Hey xee2 what type of wireless range are you getting now?

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 08, 2010, 06:55:00 PM

Quote from: gyulasun on March 08, 2010, 05:40:13 PM
Hi MK1,

In your video you wrote at 0:16 "On the first try I made it an X winding, the pickup coil gave me 0 Volts but still could light 24 leds in parallel"
Also, at 0:33 you wrote: "0 volts coil (X) At work!"

Did you mean that your voltage meter did not show any voltage, yet the the leds were lit?
Or you meant the X (crossing) wires do not induce voltage, yet the leds are lit?

Thanks, Gyula

Thanks everyone!

Gyula

Yes and yes ...

The meter showed 0 v , since i don't have a scope i changed it for convenience to have a clue about my results.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 08, 2010, 06:57:40 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 08, 2010, 12:45:22 PM
@all

I made a new video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiLcbTBewhw

Running the motor/generator , detail on the connections ...

Great work!!!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 08, 2010, 07:02:15 PM

Quote from: SkyWatcher123 on March 07, 2010, 03:24:36 AM
Hi folks, so does anyone have any thoughts on freeenergyinfo's idea about induction heater or has anyone tried this already, thanks.
peace love light
Tyson

Hi Tyson,
Only that I have been wanting to try it and have not done so yet.
Every time I read the fine print the "high" of the high voltage is not so high but the watts is really high, so I do something else.
If freenergyinfo could show us a 1.2v input even warming the core, I would be encouraged. But it is not too hopeful at this point.
Do you want to try it?
If the frequency is more important than the volts, which it could be, then raise the value of the base resistor on your joule thief. This will lower the volts, so keep an eye on them. Spiky volts count about half of what you expect. My thoughts are that as long as there are enough like 170v then get that base resistor high and increase the frequency.
I am not sure why the secondary alone wouldn't heat it.

I got a warming of a coil 2 times.
Both times the transistor was cool and everything else seemed normal.
Once was with a bedini circuit and the other time was with the cardboard toroid.
(funny... both times folks said there must be a short, but there was not.)

I did use a stubblefield which is made on a plain steel bolt.
It worked well as the "toroid" of a joule thief, but I do not remember if it heated up or not.
The steel bolt rather than ferrite or laminated material is what is needed here,( according to the site freenergyinfo linked).

wanna try it?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on March 08, 2010, 09:33:18 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on March 08, 2010, 11:04:45 AM
This fellow used a multiplier to go from 20k volts to 80k. I believe he used a Cockcroft-Walton multiplier for this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CltmVL4UguA&feature=grec (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CltmVL4UguA&feature=grec)

For that high a voltage(I agree it's that high), embedding the components in something like pourable plastic Neolite or else highly insulated diodes and caps would increase efficiency by reducing coronal discharge at inopportune moments.

Quote
His arcs are huge and actually look a lot like flames to me rather than sparks. This is unreal and may be related to our work here.

Yeah, I saw it too. Unique display. I never saw anything like it. But, 80,000 V is nothing to treat lightly when the arc is that big.

--Lee

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 09, 2010, 09:20:30 AM

i wake up in the morning and i step out side and i get real high!!

i said hey whats going on .... ?

lmfao

W

4x3x3lap

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 09, 2010, 11:07:14 AM

Quote from: the_big_m_in_ok on March 08, 2010, 09:33:18 PM
For that high a voltage(I agree it's that high), embedding the components in something like pourable plastic Neolite or else highly insulated diodes and caps would increase efficiency by reducing coronal discharge at inopportune moments.Yeah, I saw it too. Unique display. I never saw anything like it. But, 80,000 V is nothing to treat lightly when the arc is that big.

--Lee

Lee:

I agree that this looks dangerous. I also have never seen anything like this either. I wonder what that would look like if run through a large Jacob's ladder?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 09, 2010, 11:34:58 AM

k1zm lighting large filament bulb very bright from 1.5 volt AA (in cell phone charger).

video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VLq3YlEp-E

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on March 09, 2010, 12:52:16 PM

Nice find xee, the cap is providing that quick current to get it to light so bright!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 09, 2010, 01:08:12 PM

I think this is the k1zm filament circuit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: mscoffman on March 09, 2010, 01:16:36 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on March 08, 2010, 11:04:45 AM

...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CltmVL4UguA&feature=grec (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CltmVL4UguA&feature=grec)
His arcs are huge and actually look a lot like flames to me rather than sparks.
...

Bill

The tip of the wire is vaporizing, injecting metal/metal oxide plasma
into the arc...hot stuff! A diode voltage multiplier can leave you
with relatively low impedances - and a certain amount of current.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 09, 2010, 02:16:42 PM

hey guess what ...

NOW I DONE IT !

: )

i just designed a kick ass pulse motor generator with horse power ... and it runs on a jt ring gold mines ... ... lol

and it also is high speed high mass .. and a generator on top of the bedini jt and mechanical work it can do ...

simple to make ....

: )

ist!

maybe ill make it maybe i wont ... hummmmmm....

did i say LOOK MOM NO BATTERIES AGIN ......

ill even throw on a HPG for extra weight and cuz i know it wont slow this thing down ... : )

im building the first one useing the menonitte meat grinder fly wheel .. and 2" x 1" neo magnets ...

it will be built inside a large cardboard tube .. almost 3/4 " thick .. it will run on the POWER RING ...

REGARDS

W

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on March 09, 2010, 03:21:26 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on March 09, 2010, 11:07:14 AM
Lee:
I agree that this looks dangerous. I also have never seen anything like this either. I wonder what that would look like if run through a large Jacob's ladder?

@Pirate88179,
Wait. Now I think I remember: When I was a boy, about 50 yrs ago, there was a B&W television show in my hometown called, "Science Fiction Theatre." In the opening theme song scene, I believe? there was a Jacob's ladder doing the same thing as the arc in the video.

The series was so well written and acted(for the time period and type of technology), I never forgot it. I was about 10, but at least I remember seeing and remembering a Jacob's ladder.

--Lee

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 09, 2010, 03:40:18 PM

Corrected k1zm filament circuit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 09, 2010, 11:07:24 PM

@all

I started a new topic about my vortex coil .

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8878.msg231926

You are all welcome to if , thanks .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sirmikey1 on March 10, 2010, 02:29:52 AM

Quote from: xee2 on March 09, 2010, 03:40:18 PMCorrected k1zm filament circuit.

Thanks for posting this xee2. Great work k1zm. Heads Up! Just what the doctor ordered (beefy JT). ist's #8 JTs also caught my attention as far as 8X spikes; all different frequency; for start and run caps.
sm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sirmikey1 on March 10, 2010, 02:50:33 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 09, 2010, 11:07:24 PMI started a new topic about my vortex coil .
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8878.msg231926
You are all welcome to if , thanks .Mark

@mk1,
Great work (beefy JT)! I'll definitely follow the thread...
Many Thanks,
sm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 10, 2010, 04:16:42 AM

Successful test with k1zm-slayer007 toroid circuit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 10, 2010, 11:26:01 AM

Circuit will light two tubes in series, thus is putting out at least 1000 volts. Neon shows output is AC. Frequency is about 25 kHz.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sirmikey1 on March 10, 2010, 03:49:58 PM

@all

I had a question for you guys, but hard to put into words (green). I am basically pondering all of the recent JT filament bulb circuits; and Marko's Filament Bulb Start+Run Cap Method in this video below has me thinking that his method (NO CAP CHARGING+SWITCHING NEONS/TRIAC/SIDAC) can be applied to all of these other BEEFY RESONANT curcuits:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ODW-ntPHSU

My thoughts are that putting bank of caps on L1 & L2 ( or L2+L3? ) would accomplish same results, capacity. Any ideas or comments?

Mikey

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 10, 2010, 08:38:33 PM

@all

Ok I am on to something odd perhaps some of you big brain folks might be kind enough to explain this to me. Tonight in my home lab i was working on a simple SEC that was posted back 20 pages. It was using a trigger coil. I could not get it to work no matter how I ran the circuit. So I got upset and moved on to my JT test bench.

This is when things got odd. I know all about energy coupling and i think this is what is going on here but the odd issue is that if I hit a certain frequency power drops for a split second and BAM magic well magic to me at least. My theory is that I can run many cores and have then all generate power from but one source. And as I add them the amp draw gets lower and lower.

a few pics..

The LAMP is an LED light and its running from the JT.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 10, 2010, 08:48:35 PM

Quote from: altrez on March 10, 2010, 08:38:33 PM
if I hit a certain frequency power drops for a split second and BAM magic

I think you need to explain a bit more. Magic what?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 10, 2010, 08:49:58 PM

Photo of the 15T-150T toroid used in the above circuit. Wire is #26 solid.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 10, 2010, 08:56:48 PM

Quote from: xee2 on March 10, 2010, 08:48:35 PM
I think you need to explain a bit more. Magic what?

The lights get real bright and the multimeter takes a nap. I am not sure how I got it to happen. Also if I add a POT to the other coil I can make the led get even brighter but it has to be on a pick up coil to work, the POT that is?

So for example I am running the JT its powering the lamp. I add a second 100k pot to the current 1ohm pot. I adjust each in a sweep fashion.

Very perplexing.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on March 10, 2010, 09:03:37 PM

xee2
the k1zm-slayer007 toroid circuit.. is the same one i use on 4 post inverters..
but some loads will lock the transistor down..
but it does output more voltage at the same input ma's (alot ma's )

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 10, 2010, 09:13:27 PM

Quote from: altrez on March 10, 2010, 08:56:48 PM
The A get real bright and the multimeter takes a nap. I am not sure how I got it to happen. Also if I add a POT to the other coil I can make the led get even brighter but it has to be on a pick up coil to work, the POT that is?

So for example I am running the JT its powering the lamp. I add a second 100k pot to the current 1ohm pot. I adjust each in a sweep fashion.

Very perplexing.

-Altrez

I am not sure what is happening in your circuit. But, when a circuit goes into resonance, the voltage across a parallel resonator spikes. That may be what is happening.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 10, 2010, 09:24:08 PM

@all

I think there is some odd what I call "reverse amplification" effect going on here. If you Jam a frequency on a pickup coil. That wave seems to resonate down into the bi-filer coil. I think that this could be timed to cause a major flux?-in the field thus if you added another receiver coil would yield excess energy.

Cant prove it yet but I wanted to at least share my theory of what I am seeing.

The battery that would normally drive then JT needs to be replaced with a cap and a blocking diode so you can see that there is "back-emf??" or something flowing back down in a reverse effect. If you remove the cap then you get a see-saw effect if you could add a timer you could what I call see-saw a charge back and forth and the circuit I "think" will run.

If nothing more this does to me at least prove that energy can 100% flow backwards in a JT if the correct load is placed on the pickup coil to at-least change the frequency.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 10, 2010, 10:00:53 PM

@all

I have a made new circuit called a "Bucking Joule Thief". I took a 3" in diameter toroid and placed two JTs across from each other using the same toroid. I then added at 90 degree angles two pickup coils with ac-dc rectifiers and caps with blocking diodes on each. I manually turned on one jt then the other. I did this 12 times. The caps on the pickup coils grabbed a slight charge "3volts" and the JTs did not seem to drop in voltage.

This is very easy to test. You can see that effect. So if you think about it. If you grab the back emf. and then also have useful work "Charge caps" its a really cool effect :)

Its a bucking effect playing off two different back emf fields. Interesting to say the least.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on March 11, 2010, 06:12:28 AM

Hello anyone !!!!

Please will someone answer me...

Has anyone been able to make a Joule thief powering either LED's or a very bright light bulb,
bright enough to fully light up a room completely where the whole room is lit bright ????

please show me...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 11, 2010, 09:42:51 AM

@all

Just to let everyone know my Bucking Joule Thief results are getting better. I do not have any fancy drawing program so I will see if I can find someone who might be kind enough to make a drawing for me. However first tests are in:

1.05 Starting volts on battery A and 1.16 on battery B. I then added two pick up coils at 90 degrees to the JTs and 180 to each other. I used photoflash caps 120uf 300v caps and a 1n1004 blocking diode on each. starting voltage was empty.

I then ran the circuit and manually switched back and forth. After 1 hour the starting battery's where at 1.13 and 1.22 and the caps had collected 30 volts on 1 and 14 on the there other.

The are a few things to remember the switching is by hand at this point. You have to have blocking diodes on the JT battery when they are in what I call Receive mode.

This does seem to work and I did notice extra energy on the circuit. I think the back-emf is what is kicking the batters up on voltage. And I do believe that they would need to be ran for 30 to 50 cycles like this before they would hold that charge.

However they are charging and doing real work at the same time. Its a simple circuit that should be easy for anyone to replicate.

What do you guys / gals think?

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on March 11, 2010, 10:40:45 AM

In this test I have two wireless tower's.The first one is 16" away from the main coil and the second one is 29" away.
The first one has 40 led's on it and the second one has 20 led's.
First I have it running off the cell phone charger then I also show it running off a 6v sla battery.

Here is the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkVfGupmm0M

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 11, 2010, 10:50:33 AM

Quote from: freepow on March 11, 2010, 06:12:28 AM
Hello anyone !!!!

Please will someone answer me...

Has anyone been able to make a Joule thief powering either LED's or a very bright light bulb,
bright enough to fully light up a room completely where the whole room is lit bright ??? ?

please show me...

That is a pretty tall order for something powered by a used 1.5 battery. However, with the lights I, and others have made and shown here, if you run several of them at once, depending on the size of the room, it gets to be pretty bright. I can use rechargeable batteries and recharge them from the EER or one of my Bedini chargers for free so no cost there.

I had three of my lights running at the same time the other night and my room was pretty well lit. Jeanna's light with the globe she fabricated does an excellent job and I would bet 2 or 3 of them would light a room nicely.

But, as of right now, I don't have any single lights powered by 1.5 volts that will do that, and I don't recall anyone else having one either, although, as usual, I could be wrong.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 11, 2010, 11:47:40 AM

@ slayer007

WOW! :o

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 11, 2010, 12:05:27 PM

Quote from: slayer007 on March 11, 2010, 10:40:45 AM
In this test I have two wireless tower's.The first one is 16" away from the main coil and the second one is 29" away.
The first one has 40 led's on it and the second one has 20 led's.
First I have it running off the cell phone charger then I also show it running off a 6v sla battery.

Here is the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkVfGupmm0M

Is that with your simple SEC circuit? Do you have a schematic or a link to one?

Good work.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 11, 2010, 12:08:50 PM

Quote from: slayer007 on March 11, 2010, 10:40:45 AM
In this test I have two wireless tower's.The first one is 16" away from the main coil and the second one is 29" away.
The first one has 40 led's on it and the second one has 20 led's.
First I have it running off the cell phone charger then I also show it running off a 6v sla battery.

Here is the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkVfGupmm0M (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkVfGupmm0M)

Slayer:

I can't believe all of the leds you are lighting and also the tube on 40 mA's. I hope Dr. Stiffler sees your video. Incredible work!

Very well done sir.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on March 11, 2010, 12:22:59 PM

@ Xee2 & Bill Thank you.

@ Altrez Yes this is my Exiter circuit I have a circuit diagram a couple pages back.It tells the coil specs that I am using.
I also have a video showing the circuit.

The coils are running the led's wireless.
I wounder what would happen if I had a circle of towers around the main tower. ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 11, 2010, 01:43:18 PM

Quote from: slayer007 on March 11, 2010, 12:22:59 PM
@ Xee2 & Bill Thank you.

@ Altrez Yes this is my Exiter circuit I have a circuit diagram a couple pages back.It tells the coil specs that I am using.
I also have a video showing the circuit.

The coils are running the led's wireless.
I wounder what would happen if I had a circle of towers around the main tower. ;)

Very simple SEC ya got there. Good work. Its generating lots of RF that could possibly be bad for your health with prolonged exposure. Have you tested with a spectrum analyzer?

And very cool results Slayer007. If you made a circle of towers they would all receive power if you keep them in the rf bubble. Oh I forgot to ask. Do you have the LEDS in series or parallel?

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on March 11, 2010, 02:00:51 PM

Quote from: altrez on March 11, 2010, 01:43:18 PM
Very simple SEC ya got there. Good work. Its generating A of RF that could possibly be bad for your health with prolonged exposure. Have you tested with a spectrum analyzer?

And very cool results Slayer007. If you made a circle of towers they would all receive power if you keep them in the rf bubble. Oh I forgot to ask. Do you have the LEDS in series or parallel?

-Altrez

The led's are all in series.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 11, 2010, 05:50:20 PM

I did my first wireless experiment

I did not use a SEC or a trigger coil.

I used 2 candy cane coils
One of them was used as the JT coil
The other one had the output if the first coil across its primary, so it was acting like a step up transformer.

It was not all that impressive........ I lit a red LED to about half brightness with the wires of my diode "plug "
The the interesting thing to me is that nothing extra is needed........only stuff I have been playing with for months.

I used a 3 X 9 inch piece of copper flashing as a transmitter
I just connected one leg of the step up coils secondary to the copper and it worked

I was pretty sure it would ..... I had just tried lighting a 25 W CFL it lit to near full brightness. I disconnected one leg ....... it did not light up but it created a pretty good glow about half way up on the connected side

I am pretty sure that anyone that has a JT that will light a floro or CFL can transmit a little power with that JT

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 11, 2010, 06:03:13 PM

Quote from: freepow on March 11, 2010, 06:12:28 AM
Hello anyone !!!!

Please will someone answer me...

Has anyone been able to make a Joule thief powering either LED's or a very bright light bulb,
bright enough to fully light up a room completely where the whole room is lit bright ????

please show me...

Feepow

I think everyone here is still in expermenter mode.
I don't think that there have been many attempts at scaling any of this up.
I learned real quick that expermenting with higher power levels can make smoke real quick,

Most of my circuits are 12 V
My normal load is a 90 LED array
It often lights bright enough that my reaction is turn is down before it gets fried.

I am not saying that it is possible to light a room with it ..... but a couple of them would probably do a pretty good job

I use a 7.5 K ohm resistor on my base so that I do not overheat it ........ I have ran it with half that resistance........but I like my circuits to run fairly cool.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 11, 2010, 06:18:21 PM

@ resonanceman

Quote from: resonanceman link=topic=6123.msg232177#msg232177 A=1268347820
I did my first wireless experiment

Congratulations. How far did you transmit? What is a "candy cane coil"?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 11, 2010, 07:27:45 PM

Quote from: xee2 on March 11, 2010, 06:18:21 PM
@ resonanceman

Congratulations. How far did you transmit? What is a "candy cane coil"?

Xee

The picture is one of my early candy cane coils
It shows why I picked the name
With just a few wraps on each toroid the winding spiral around the toroids like the stripes on a candy cane.

The coils I used both had 6 toroids........ 20 wraps of cat 5 twisted pair on each toroid.......all going the same direction.

The candy cane coil came from my search for a way to make stronger JT without big toroids.

My normal primary for the candy cane coils is 4 wraps through the center of all the toroids..
(The green wire in the picture )

I normally use the secondary with start of one wire connected to the end of the other ........just like the primarys

I was able to light the red LED to about half brightness at about a half inch... not impressive..........but I am sure I will do better later.

One thing I need to do is order more toroids for more candy canes.......or bigger candy canes.
One or the other should do better

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 11, 2010, 07:44:36 PM

@ resonanceman

Very interesting. Thanks.

I hope you will post more of your tests with them.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 11, 2010, 07:55:33 PM

Attached is my test fixture for testing my replication of K1zm toroid circuit for lighting filament bulbs. My capacitor is only half of his capacitance so it should charge up 4 times quicker to a given voltage and hold 1/4 the energy when at the same voltage. The neons are a safety feature to limit the capacitor voltage to 240 volts so it will not blow up.

The capacitor will charge to 140 volts in about 10 seconds. At this voltage there is enough energy stored to flash the 7 watt bulb to about the same brightness as in his video.

I was unable to get 2N2222 transistors to work well with the turns on my toroid. But, the MPSA06 transistors seem to producing about the same power.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 11, 2010, 10:20:45 PM

i have a question

who can and will answer?

if i have 4 caps ... and 4 realays like so and

if i had a jt in front of it

J 1 1 2 2 3 3 4 4
T cap relay cap realy cap relay cap relay

THEN I COULD GO -------- = FILL CYCLE ________ = DRAIN CYCLE
----------------------------------------
J 1 1 2 2 3 3 4 4
T cap relay cap realy cap relay cap relay
_________________

OR YOU COULD GO ..

J 1 1 2 2 3 3 4 4 = 120V VIBRATING
T cap relay cap realy cap relay cap relay = RELAY

just some ideas ..

as the cap 1 charges to the relay value it closes and begins to charge cap 2 then relay 2 closes ... and so on .. if you increased the voltage of the relays and cap values along the way .. you could probally acheive any desire you wanted .. you can then chase it with a drain cycle .. that would take good timeing ..

in the last text art you see a vibratting relay that has a high voltage supply and what ever value cap you wish to discharge .. it is powered from the cap cascade you could use it to do many things

agin just some ideas

W

hint ... if you have the MONEY .... i guess you could do this with boost caps ....... fill and drain at 12vdc via invertor ...

or build a few power supply coils ... and run RIGHT THROUGH high amp .....

: ) ; )

it must be christmas year round round here ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAe3sCIakXo

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on March 11, 2010, 11:41:30 PM

xee2
you once said that a friend sent you some xenon flash tubes..
well i had a friend send me some 1uf 630v caps and three of them in a series with one on those flash tubes for a spark gap instead of using a scr or triac.. does some very , very interesting stuff..
i hope you know what i mean..
i think the doped conductors in the tubes are causing a boost in output.. .. ..

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 12, 2010, 02:25:05 AM

@ kooler

I like investigating new discoveries. Thanks.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: forest on March 12, 2010, 03:01:17 AM

IST, you are right ! Relay is good but I opened one 12V 30A and there is one thing which bother me : some relays have armature metal connected to relay coil core.I don't know if that's good or bad but it could change the relay output (radiant energy)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 12, 2010, 10:34:20 AM

Quote from: forest on March 12, 2010, 03:01:17 AM
IST, you are right ! Relay is good but I opened one 12V 30A and there is one thing which bother me : some relays have armature metal connected to relay coil core.I don't know if that's good or bad but it could change the relay output (radiant energy)

: )

i was starting to wonder ...

: )

here is another idea ... i have mentioned many times ... if i was to build a BASIC elle coil ..

3 turn jt

elle btw was ISIS AND RA'S GIFT TO HUMANS .... pull up the old stone tablet if you like ... ; )

but why not 3055 it .. and aa it .. and then take the cap drive colpase and fire a high turn count coil ..

to boost the voltage way up .. so if i use 1.5vdc on source .. cap drive is say 30vdc .. now fire that 30vdc to a 2 or 3 turn primary on the second toroide .. and if you tune your second coil well you will have extream output ..

i have gotten 680vac sine wave from a single coil .. with a 1.5vdc source ..

i think it was round 6vdc per turn on the output side of that coil ...

1" gold mine toroides ... that soooooo many say they can not make em sing ... and you must buy the 100 dollar core ...

lol lol silly silly humans ...

W

the cap drive elle coil is already tune via mass tuneing as it is bifillar .. then you need to tune close to 7hz with the jt ... so maybe lower resistance ..

the 2222a's go pop when used with this coil ... the 3055's take it but dont like it too much ...

when you go pnp and diode .. i think i was able to lock it with ease ... : )

if i had more spools i would build the wonder coil ..... useing 5 turns twisted 3 wire around a gold mine inside a rs spool ...

that thing surprized me ... : )

few amp pushing right through ...

i may make some wodden spools insted of the rs spools ...

I WILL CALL EM WONDER PUCKS ... : )

signed 99 W G

R U IN DA ZONE ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 12, 2010, 11:49:18 AM

When I first looked at the slayer007-k1zm toroid circuit I thought both electrodes of neon were glowing and thus it was producing AC. However, I noticed that actually only one electrode is glowing on neon and thus the output is pulsed DC.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 12, 2010, 11:54:49 AM

Quote from: xee2 on March 12, 2010, 11:49:18 AM
When I first looked at this circuit I thought both electrode of neon were glowing and thus it was producing AC. However, I noticed that actually only one electrode is glowing on neon and thus the output is pulsed DC.

i do remember back when we were playing neon : )

anyhow ...

some of my best coils ... wont lite a neon ...

; )

W

we wont pull out the big old steel core coils yet with a neo .. as they blew up my magic makers ... : )

ill leave them in the box for a bit yet .......

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 12, 2010, 02:42:37 PM

When I tried parallel transistors both elements of the neon lit up so output was AC. Why sometimes it is AC and sometimes not I do not understand. I do not think it is the number of transistors. More likely it is how the wires are laying on the bench (how the circuit is capacitively coupling).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 12, 2010, 03:31:48 PM

Slayer007-k1zm toroid circuit test with 25T-250T toroid.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 12, 2010, 09:50:54 PM

anyone ever take apart a LAPTOP screen ... lol

1500v .. looks like a really intresting transformer in there : )

lmfao

how many harmonics ? i will post a pic ... discovering this ... im going to take apart another one and a desk top model ..

i highly reccomend it !

: )

W

might aswell grabb the wifi antenna.... lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on March 12, 2010, 10:09:49 PM

Quote from: xee2 on March 12, 2010, 02:42:37 PM
When I tried parallel transistors both elements of the neon lit up so output was AC. Why sometimes it is AC and sometimes not I do not understand. I do not think it is the number of transistors. More likely it is how the wires are laying on the bench (how the circuit is capacitively coupling).

I have a feeling that using the two transistors is giving you enough (higher) voltage on the secondary during the "on" time to light one side of the neon and then the other side of the neon is lit with the BEMF. Using the single transistor will not give you the same voltage.

All you need to do to prove this is try to hook up the two FL tubes with only one transistor as in your first diagram (on this page). If you can lite them with two transistors and not one, I guess it will prove that you are getting a higher output and not necessarily AC vs DC. Just higher pulses on the + and - side.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 12, 2010, 11:10:56 PM

Quote from: freepow on March 11, 2010, 06:12:28 AM
Hello anyone !!!!

Please will someone answer me...

Has anyone been able to make a Joule thief powering either LED's or a very bright light bulb,
bright enough to fully light up a room completely where the whole room is lit bright ????

please show me...

Hi freepow,

I have been living in my travel trailer for the last few weeks.
I am very pleased with the light I am getting.
I made a video to show how bright the trailer is with just a few lamps, but alas, the camera ignores the cool light and even though my eyes can see very well, I cannot show you.
I do have a picture of the front of the trailer with ONE joule thief connected to 2 led lamps that looks true to the light in the room.
I can read or do anything I want in this room.

I did not take a pic of this jt with only 1LoA leds bulb, because I think it is more impressive with 2 lamps, so here that is.

jeanna

edit.
Bye the way, this is not made with that large specialty toroid.
It is made with a 7/8" inch (0.86mm) toroid and uses a TIP31 transistor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 13, 2010, 04:08:04 AM

Jeanna:

That is a beautiful site. I knew you would be the one to answer his question showing your lights. That is really great.

Very well done!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 13, 2010, 09:55:21 AM

ya the plasma transformers in the monitor .. are scarry ...

9 kv im guessing

3 kv caps and 6 kv caps there 2 transformers ..

ist ..

simple toys ... looks to have 2 inputs and 2 outputs ...

primary and 7 stacked secondary coils apear to be 1 wire ...

ya useing the kick ...

J those are bright ..

i had an old 400w hps grow lite that was blowen up .. i scraped the transformer a long time ago ...

but i kept the wireing harness .. it has a run cap and a LAMP IGNITOR ... i thought it was a cap at first ...

i dont think it is a cap .... maybe a kicker coil ....

it weighs too much to be a cap ....

i might take it apart ..

i looked all day yesterday to find my caps for the base charger .. i finally found the last one late last night

im useing 8 caps 35v 4700uf for the low volt solar aid .. jt charger from your dead batteries ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on March 13, 2010, 12:12:38 PM

In this video I just wanted to see how big a load I could put on it running it off the cell phone charger.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXhzeNXr11I

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 13, 2010, 12:38:49 PM

Quote from: slayer007 on March 13, 2010, 12:12:38 PM
In this video I just wanted to see how big a load I could put on it running it off the cell phone charger.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXhzeNXr11I

Nice, I wonder why we bother at all with wiring those types of bulbs ...perhaps it has something to do with RF interference?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 13, 2010, 03:55:49 PM

@ kooler

8 neons + scr

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sirmikey1 on March 13, 2010, 10:57:14 PM

Bismuth and aluminum core coil (no power source)...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcOV6nQ_eII&NR=1

sm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 14, 2010, 06:02:52 AM

How to increase power of slayer007 exciter circuit. Transistors do not get hot but 20 ohm resistor does.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 14, 2010, 11:59:33 AM

makeing your way in the world today takes everything youve got ....

all those nights when you got no lites and your check is in the mail ..... ya right ...

and your little angel hung the cat up by its tale ..
and your 3rd fiance didnt show .....

some times you want to go where everybody knows your nammmmmeeeeee

: )

and there always glad you came ...

now how bout the jt oscolator driven ALI 4" 3 STACK kick cascade?

JT TPU

maybe a little baleing wire ...

: )

W

where i come from we call the bobbin some big OOOOOOOO : ) and now the drummmmm rollllll

drurrrrrrrrrrrr

makeing my way in my world today takes everything i've got ... !

!st 2 always be free!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 14, 2010, 12:46:00 PM

since i cant stop and i dont know where else to post the crap ....

here is 1 more ..

the clapper ... lmfao .... jt

you know how you all clap your hands .... imagine you put 1 n pole faceing in ring magnet in your left hand and 1 n pole faceing in magnet in your right hand ...

and clapped.... what is the effect ...? they are bucking ... ok

right ...

so now replace the magnets and your hands for air core or steel core electro magnets configured in vibrateing mode as a joule theif is ....

: )

and grab it .... 2 ways ... transformer .. wound as the electro coils and the bucking feild at 90 deg ...

: )

hummmmmm

W

or you could go sm simple ... and just use 1 coil and a magnet .... maybe a 90 deg collector ring or 3

lol

now if i were ever to build something like this i would use the colpase of the bucking electromagnet to feed the collector rings that get speeded up by the bucking feild ...

there 1000 ways

so now since sm was an audio engineer .... and designed speekers ....

well

what is the result if .... he glued the voice coil of a speeker permantaly in the magnet then found the RIGHT FREQ for the bucking magnet he was to place on top of it .... will it make standing waves ? ... i think it may if ... it were wobbled ....

; )

H

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 14, 2010, 01:19:43 PM

since im right nutz ...

AND IT IS SUNDAY...

: )

its time to rize and SHINE... lol

i have thease 6 " alum rings ... and this old door bell ... and i got to thinking ...

i know when i slide a magnet down a sheet of alum .. it goes slow as it slides to the ground .. even slower than COPPER .... HUMMMMM

any how the ding dong door bell has 2 air core coils with 2 bangers in it ... so if i was to find some garden wire plastic coated to use as a core ... and jt'd the 2 coils and stuck them in the alum ring so i have a slowed flux path from 1 end to the other ... i should be able to wind on the alum ring coils ..

no ?

: )

ist!

that would be kinda like a electromagnetic feild flux frequency convertor / inverter / transformer / generator ///

yikes....

FLUX CAP ...? i think we can swing that .. : )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 14, 2010, 02:35:03 PM

Two transistor slayer007 circuit voltage is about 1400 volts. Using cell phone charger without 10 ohm resistor produces about 1200 volts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 14, 2010, 05:26:24 PM

Xee2,
What is the output of the slayer circuits with a single 1.2v battery without the cell phone charger?
I want to keep apples and oranges separate here.
Thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 14, 2010, 05:58:11 PM

@all

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8332.msg232580

Some news from Gadget :'(

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 14, 2010, 07:01:16 PM

Here is a video on how to repair floro tubes. This goes along with our thinking on how they work:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3btbt0QRs8A&feature=grec (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3btbt0QRs8A&feature=grec)

@ MK1:

Yes, I saw that about Gadget, that is terrible news. I should have posted that here. Thank you for doing so.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on March 14, 2010, 07:16:28 PM

This guy cured..yes cured, all form of cancer with hemp oil.

See phoenixtears.ca

Watch tearful testimonies from people now cured, after being sent home to die by their doctors.

Someone send this to gadget if they know his email.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on March 14, 2010, 10:47:29 PM

Quote from: xee2 on March 13, 2010, 03:55:49 PM
@ kooler

8 neons + scr

you pushing 500v out of that..
what you powering

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 15, 2010, 12:15:55 AM

Quote from: jeanna on March 14, 2010, 05:26:24 PM
Xee2,
What is the output of the slayer circuits with a single 1.2v battery without the cell phone charger?
I want to keep apples and oranges separate here.
Thanks,

jeanna

if i can grow pears on an apple tree why seprate the truth ...... ?

i wish gadget all the best!

when you get an 814 score from me thats exactally what you get ....
thats not a power trip ... thats your reality ....

with the MATERIALS GADGET HAS AT HIS DISPOSAL ... he could have done this 1000 times ... flawless...

i did it with out CAPS PEROID!!! YEARS AGO ..... YEARS AGO ........

OK

LOL
caps make it easy ... i only in the last 6 months got my first 1frad supercaps ....

good god!

i payed for 6 ultra boost caps got 1

then got ripped off ... so 814!

whos next ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGp1my-Zx-M

A is for apple ... for being in the news every single day! : )

i just love M ... lmfao

Z is for zoom a little zoom in a rocketship ... off we go on a trip ...

and moly is hot !

: )

W

forgot to tell you all i wound a really kool coil today ...

goldmine 1" 4 wires 4 turns twisted cat 5 2 pair .. fit togather like a POWER GLOVE!

: )

hummmmmmm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tysb3 on March 15, 2010, 01:00:58 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 14, 2010, 05:58:11 PM
@all

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8332.msg232580

Some news from Gadget :'(

Mark

@ Gadget

dont give up. true warior fight when is no power in the body.
beetroot diet , ginger, is good weapon against cancer. need to exclude animals proteins from diet.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sirmikey1 on March 15, 2010, 02:05:42 AM

Gotoluc came up with a self-runner resonate circuit. You use the AA battery to start it and then remove the battery. The neos, neo position and frequency are all critical, what he calls a specific "sweet spot" :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Fb5FOfme1g

Best to Gadget and his family...

sm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 15, 2010, 02:28:48 AM

Quote from: sirmikey1 on March 15, 2010, 02:05:42 AM
Gotoluc came up with a self-runner resonate circuit. You use the AA battery to start it and then remove the battery. The neos, neo position and frequency are all critical, what he calls a specific "sweet spot" :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Fb5FOfme1g

Best to Gadget and his family...

sm

luc is right spot on ... i dont even need to watch his video... : )

if GADGET would come back ... maybe i would help him ...
if not i wont ...

PEROID!

just built the ali coil 4" 3 wire rs magnetwire pac .. turned out well ..

yes batteryes are not even needed nor is the transistor ...

and when i finally talk bout orbit ... well

: )

lol

W

anyone ever notice HOW SM SWIPES THE MAGNET FIRST THEN PLACES IT hummmmm..... what is he doing in doing so ?

LET A SINGLE DISCHARGE BE FIRST CONSIDERED ....

: )

btw ORBIT operates on a potencial diffrance between 2 places ... or more .. lol

i have a picture of something ...
what is it ? : ) how did they get it ?

things that make you go hummmmm

what is it 3 feet in the ground and 6 feet above .... : )

looks like a POWER TREE ... they even planted it in a FLOWER GARDEN ... so nice of em ...

: )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on March 15, 2010, 04:36:37 AM

@ Jeanna, your 2x lamps in your trailer, are they US 110vac 20xled lamps ?????

would it work with a 2n3055 ?

really great light !!!

Excellent job !!!!
what does your circuit look like ??

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 15, 2010, 11:32:23 AM

@ jeanna

Circuit needs cell phone charger to up the 1.5 volt AA to 5.5 volts. But, it does not need a toroid to work. So it solves the problem of not being able to get a toroid.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 15, 2010, 05:07:54 PM

Quote from: freepow on March 15, 2010, 04:36:37 AM
@ Jeanna, your 2x lamps in your trailer, are they US 110vac 20xled lamps ?????

would it work with a 2n3055 ?

really great light !!!

Excellent job !!!!
what does your circuit look like ??

Thanks freepow,
Yes, it is 2 light bulbs in 2 lamps which are both made for 110v plug into the utility company power.
It would certainly work on a 2N3055. This has a TIP31c which works almost the same.

And one lamp is brighter when it is alone, but both together are brighter than the one lamp alone.
Did that make sense?

The circuit is the jtc with no led across the C-E junction, but with a secondary.
This has about 85 or 100 turns on the secondary and the lights are connected between the secondary wires.
The scope shows 150v at 14kh. It works well with 2AA batteries too. With 2 duracell alkaline D's the scope reads 192v spikes.
I use the D's when camping because I do not need to change them very often.

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: woopy on March 15, 2010, 06:03:58 PM

@ Xee2 ,Kooler, Slayer , Madame Jeanna , Pirate Ist and all

Thanks for this very interesting thread

And here my contribution

after following the very good shematics from all of you, i decided to follow the last shematic from today's Xee2 post

So i made a 60 turns of 0.5 mm copper on a plastic tubing of 10 cm diameter as secondary winding .

The primary is 5 turns of 0.5 mm copper slightly bigger than the first winding so ( as Slayer said i can move the position up and down)

I made a first try with the 2n 2222 A transistor and 500 k ohm and it was very good i got an AC voltage up to 80 volts (p to p 160 volts)

Than i tried a 2N 3904 and the Ac voltage went to 170 volts or P to p 340 volts

Datas

Coil 10 cm diameter (no toroid) = air core coil

primary 5 turns 0.5 mm copper 0.3 Ohm DC resistance Mh indicated on L meter -0.005 unmeasurable !

secondary 60 turns 0,5 mm copper 1.6 ohm DC resistance 1.6 Mh

Transistor 2n 3904

resistor as per Xee2 last shematic 470 K ohm

Basic input current ( average ) 43 ma from a measured 7 volts Nimh battery

And i could lit a Neon bulb easily but what surprised me totally i could lit this neon bulb with only one connection to the coil and the other is a simple antenna about 20 cm long of 0.5 copper wire connected to nothing

and both neon electrodes are lit and bright !

Very intersting and go on the good work

Laurent

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 15, 2010, 07:58:32 PM

nice of you to join us here ...

did you try an earth ground insted of the antenna ?

any diffrence .?

ist!

here are a few pics of my latest build ..

no problem at all to recharge that battery ... so i will use a small solar to top up the aa ...

: )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 15, 2010, 08:00:13 PM

Quote from: woopy on March 15, 2010, 06:03:58 PM
@ Xee2 ,Kooler, Slayer , Madame Jeanna , Pirate Ist and all

Thanks for this very interesting thread

And here my contribution

after following the very good shematics from all of you, i decided to follow the last shematic from today's Xee2 post

So i made a 60 turns of 0.5 mm copper on a plastic tubing of 10 cm diameter as secondary winding .

The primary is 5 turns of 0.5 mm copper slightly bigger than the first winding so ( as Slayer said i can move the position up and down)

I made a first try with the 2n 2222 A transistor and 500 k ohm and it was very good i got an AC voltage up to 80 volts (p to p 160 volts)

Than i tried a 2N 3904 and the Ac voltage went to 170 volts or P to p 340 volts

Datas

Coil 10 cm diameter (no toroid) = air core coil

primary 5 turns 0.5 mm copper 0.3 Ohm DC resistance Mh indicated on L meter -0.005 unmeasurable !

secondary 60 turns 0,5 mm copper 1.6 ohm DC resistance 1.6 Mh

Transistor 2n 3904

resistor as per Xee2 last shematic 470 K ohm

Basic input current ( average ) 43 ma from a measured 7 volts Nimh battery

And i could lit a Neon bulb easily but what surprised me totally i could lit this neon bulb with only one connection to the coil and the other is a simple antenna about 20 cm long of 0.5 copper wire connected to nothing

and both neon electrodes are lit and bright !

Very intersting and go on the good work

Laurent

Nice work!!!!

Take care,

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sirmikey1 on March 15, 2010, 08:10:57 PM

Hi everyone,

What do you guys recommend for winding a 60mm Jeanna toroid core? I've got cat5 and phone wire, and some heavier mag wire if needed. # Turns? I found this image below, earlier; Is this it?

Thanks in Advance,
sm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 15, 2010, 08:19:37 PM

Quote from: sirmikey1 on March 15, 2010, 08:10:57 PM
Hi everyone,

What do you guys recommend for winding a 60mm Jeanna toroid core? I've got cat5 and phone wire, and some heavier mag wire if needed. # Turns? I found this image below, earlier; Is this it?

Thanks in Advance,
sm

Hi sirmikey,
That is a good one.
The toroid is so heavy it is nice to use the thickly coated phone wire. I thought that was the same thing as cat5 or cat6 wire.

I have also used mag wire for the pick-up in JLJL
As long as you do not scratch the insulation you will be fine.
Did you get this 2 1/2 from mouser?
People keep asking me and I do not have a good answer for them.

jeanna

edit
I found that 2T,8T was the best tuning for the primary of the 60mm one I had from MMI with the W permeability.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 15, 2010, 08:21:33 PM

@all

Just wanted to share this. Its pretty much the same as the cell phone charger.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~odu/dcdc.html

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 15, 2010, 08:33:47 PM

this is a recap of what i can do with 1 aa battery as it stands right now ...

the ALI 4" and the ALI 1" togather in 1 unit ...

i can charge a boost cap in 2 min or less from the aa driveing system ..

useing 1 2n2222a and 1 2n3055

the unit i just showed and the ALI coil bifillar 1 inch ..

W

btw i know this will RUN ON A EB OR EEC .. as long as it is capped and maybe on a photo cell to run at night when the solars dont ...

; )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 15, 2010, 08:41:02 PM

WithOUT taking away anything from those wonderful folks who are using the cell phone charger, I do want to point out that 5.5v is the same thing as 4 NiMH batteries.

Also 150mA x 5.5v =825mW

where

150mA x 1.2v = 180mW

So there is a major difference in power IN to these circuits.

1 apple = not quite 5 oranges

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 15, 2010, 08:46:03 PM

Quote from: jeanna on March 15, 2010, 08:41:02 PM
WithOUT taking away anything from those wonderful folks who are using the cell phone charger, I do want to point out that 5.5v is the same thing as 4 NiMH batteries.

Also 150mA x 5.5v =825mW

where

150mA x 1.2v = 180mW

So there is a major difference in power IN to these circuits.

1 apple = not quite 5 oranges

thank you,

jeanna

Hey jeanna!

The cell phone charger starts with a 1.2 volt AA battery though. So its still only a 1.2v AA on the device either way.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 15, 2010, 09:27:55 PM

Quote from: altrez on March 15, 2010, 08:46:03 PM
Hey jeanna!

The cell phone charger starts with a 1.2 volt AA battery though. So its still only a 1.2v AA on the device either way.

-Altrez

so would the run time then be shortened big time drawing 825mw opposed to 180 mw .. ?

my little unit has been running for a few hours now still whipping along and i never changed the setting ...

the resistance has been constant the entire time ..

12.83volts in it now ...

i know this is real power as i used it in pulse motor tests it took 10 min to charge on the pulse motor but it had a 12vdc source ... this has a 1.2vdc source ..

and it did infact power my pulse motor as a car battery would have ....

: )

just didnt last as long ...

: )

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 15, 2010, 09:34:38 PM

@ist!

Yes run time is way shorter if you pull the 825mw =) but I am pulling 30 mw and lighting more leds with the cell phone charger then pulling 30mws with just the battery alone. Not sure why that is.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 15, 2010, 10:20:52 PM

Quote from: altrez on March 15, 2010, 09:34:38 PM
@ist!

Yes run time is way shorter if you pull the 825mw =) but I am pulling 30 mw and lighting more leds with the cell phone charger then pulling 30mws with just the battery alone. Not sure why that is.

-Altrez

Quotejust didnt last as long ...

: )

ist!

I guess that is my point about watching the mw and not the mamps when there is a different voltage being used.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 15, 2010, 11:23:26 PM

well the thing im playing with will likely run days on 1 battery .. i have recharged that battery to over 13vdc ...

no worries .. from like 8vdc start voltage .. did not have to retune it ..

simply useing higher voltage and doing the same thing .. will allow you to access to more of the good stuff ...

HENCE WHY I USE 12VDC TO CHARGE THE BOOST CAPS ... and not 3 vdc or 1.2vdc ..

AND THEY CHARGE VERRY FAST! imagine 24 or 48vdc supply and then jt'ed to a bank of boost caps ...

I COULD HAVE SHOWED YOU ALL BUT GADGET WAS GREEDY ..

i guess you only get what you deserve ...

so life goes ..

we call it karma .. where i come from ..

W

here is a picture of a compleate ali coil driver unit .. 1.5vdc supply 12vdc recharge

it is self regulating .. so if you put 24 vdc to recharge .. the cap will ballance it ...

if you understand what i mean ... if you put a aa to be recharged it will act accordingly ...

: )

you only need to watch the full votage as there is nothing to stop it from OVERCHARGEING YOUR BATTERIES...

build the hole thing for 30 bucks ... including the rechargeable battery .. aa that is

the rs wire was the most expencive part 15 bucks ...

or if you want .. i will build them and sell them ...

45 bucks each .. no magnet no battery ..

just a tested and working 4" ali coil ...

it sure would be nice to eat in a day ....

give give give all i have ever done ...

and the didlers steal steal steal ... all they ever have done ....

so for all the troubles i will make like 20 bucks max for building a single coil ..

BUT NOBODY CAN CLAIM MY WORK AS THERE OWN !

regards!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sirmikey1 on March 15, 2010, 11:28:47 PM

Very Informative Coil Core Type Demo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLd_py1xTO8

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 16, 2010, 01:51:26 AM

i compleated the 4" ALI COIL...

all done .. works as i said it does ..

: )

i checked the voltage of the battery after 6 hours of playing with it and fully rechargeing the battery showen to 13vdc ..

and it was 1.28vdc in the battery ..

W

enjoy!

it charges quite quickly .. it also discharges quite quickly lol : ) it apears to work much like a super cap does .. probally a good cap replacement i may try a diode off it to a lead acid battery to use the cordless as a translator and to give it a bit more push ... altho this may change as the battery becomes conditioned to the high freq ..

now... lol if i wanted to get sneekie wich it is possible sm did this ... lol

i could cram as many 3vdc button cells in there where the aa battery is .. and beef up the transistor .. and smack it with 30vdc .. assumeing 10 fit in the space of 1 aa .. the fly back from 30vdc would be large i would think this coil is putting out 68vdc wide open .. properly tuned to charge at high speed it is putting out 45 vdc .. this is the secondary wire not the back load it runs bout 23vdc but that changes as the battery charge increases aswell if you put 24vdc to be recharged .. the cap voltage of the back load cap would be much higher .. and if you loaded it enough on the secondary that the back load cap could fire a neon while chargeing the front end .. you could also rectify off the overflow neon and feed back to source ..

just a thought !

if i upgraded to a HOT PATATO... hummm it might just scare ya! hot p = cam flash unit .... i call em hot patatos as the damm things always bite ya .. dosent matter how careful you are ... with em there gonna have there way with ya ... lol : ) so i have learned ...

i have charged LARGE value caps with them FAST! like maybe 20 000 uf 400vdc caps ... DONT HIT THE RED BUTTON YOULL BLAST OFF! i made videos but never posted them .. for good reason ... if you hit the red button it will release all that at 1 time ... not good for kids ...

probally blow the flash right across the room ... lol anyhow with the cap that is on board it runs the neon A LONG TIME ...... and the output is like 400v there bouts ... probally charge small caps ... with out effecting the operation of the unit .. if i used a big cap the thing would run a verry long time b4 i would have to pulse it agin for 3 seconds .. to top it up ... : )

wonderland... dont get lost its a big park!

btw i used a 60watt light bulb to drain that big cap that was charged from the cam flash unit ... the bulb WAS FULL BIRGHT ... if i were to make a unit useing 4 cam units and 4 aa's i could light the bulb constant ...

i know it ...

but thats kinda like cheating ... lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 16, 2010, 09:39:31 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on March 16, 2010, 01:51:26 AM
i compleated the 4" ALI COIL...

all done .. works as i said it does ..

: )

i checked the voltage of the battery after 6 hours of playing with it and fully rechargeing the battery showen to 13vdc ..

and it was 1.28vdc in the battery ..

W

enjoy!

it charges quite quickly .. it also discharges quite quickly lol : ) it apears to work much like a super cap does .. probally a good cap replacement i may try a diode off it to a lead acid battery to use the cordless as a translator and to give it a bit more push ... altho this may change as the battery becomes conditioned to the high freq ..

now... lol if i wanted to get sneekie wich it is possible sm did this ... lol

i could cram as many 3vdc button cells in there where the aa battery is .. and beef up the transistor .. and smack it with 30vdc .. assumeing 10 fit in the space of 1 aa .. the fly back from 30vdc would be large i would think this coil is putting out 68vdc wide open .. properly tuned to charge at high speed it is putting out 45 vdc .. this is the secondary wire not the back load it runs bout 23vdc but that changes as the battery charge increases aswell if you put 24vdc to be recharged .. the cap voltage of the back load cap would be much higher .. and if you loaded it enough on the secondary that the back load cap could fire a neon while chargeing the front end .. you could also rectify off the overflow neon and feed back to source ..

just a thought !

if i upgraded to a HOT PATATO... hummm it might just scare ya! hot p = cam flash unit .... i call em hot patatos as the damm things always bite ya .. dosent matter how careful you are ... with em there gonna have there way with ya ... lol : ) so i have learned ...

i have charged LARGE value caps with them FAST! like maybe 20 000 uf 400vdc caps ... DONT HIT THE RED BUTTON YOULL BLAST OFF! i made videos but never posted them .. for good reason ... if you hit the red button it will release all that at 1 time ... not good for kids ...

probally blow the flash right across the room ... lol anyhow with the cap that is on board it runs the neon A LONG TIME ...... and the output is like 400v there bouts ... probally charge small caps ... with out effecting the operation of the unit .. if i used a big cap the thing would run a verry long time b4 i would have to pulse it agin for 3 seconds .. to top it up ... : )

wonderland... dont get lost its a big park!

btw i used a 60watt light bulb to drain that big cap that was charged from the cam flash unit ... the bulb WAS FULL BIRGHT ... if i were to make a unit useing 4 cam units and 4 aa's i could light the bulb constant ...

i know it ...

but thats kinda like cheating ... lol

Nice work ist!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 16, 2010, 12:05:17 PM

thanks bro !

you can do the same with a mosfet 1 coil and a freq genny ...

it IS MUCH MORE STABLE AS YOU LOCK THE FREQ THAT WAY... IRREGARDLESS OF THE VOLTAGE ..

; )

sure i have done this ...

ist : )

so a CAM UNIT OR A JT .. to charge the large value cap that the FET AND FREQ GENNY RUN OFF OF AS WELL IT BECOMES YOUR BANGER SOURCE..

the problem was at 1 time for me the flyback was frying fets .. the GATE DONT LIKE IT! so for fets it is best to work with amps not so high a volts ... : )

if you have a coil the bangs out 600v and your fets are only rated 400v bang go the mosfets ... now you can portect them ... but to do so i think you need a p channel fet ..

i have used a coil and 1 fet on a 1"toroide in the past ... exactly the same as a jt but single coil ...
and freq genny ..

: )

i have called it force feeding in the past !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 16, 2010, 12:31:03 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on March 16, 2010, 12:05:17 PM
thanks bro !

you can do the same with a mosfet 1 coil and a freq genny ...

it IS MUCH MORE STABLE AS YOU LOCK THE FREQ THAT WAY... IRREGARDLESS OF THE VOLTAGE ..

; )

sure i have done this ...

ist : )

so a CAM UNIT OR A JT .. to charge the large value cap that the FET AND FREQ GENNY RUN OFF OF AS WELL IT BECOMES YOUR BANGER SOURCE..

the problem was at 1 time for me the flyback was frying fets .. the GATE DONT LIKE IT! so for fets it is best to work with amps not so high a volts ... : )

if you have a coil the bangs out 600v and your fets are only rated 400v bang go the mosfets ... now you can portect them ... but to do so i think you need a p channel fet ..

i have used a coil and 1 fet on a 1"toroide in the past ... exactly the same as a jt but single coil ...
and freq genny ..

: )

I got a genny and a goldmine but no fets ;/ Subs?

Thx,

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 16, 2010, 01:47:52 PM

a freq genny alone can do it ..

; )

i used the mags genny on a coil in the past on the .1v setting and i was able to mesure 70v out .. of a tesla tpu coil ...

W

i just tryed the ALI 4" on a large value cap .. it charges it well

cap 50vdc 20 000 uf .. likes to hang out round 20vdc in that cap .. useing a 1.2vdc source .. and the 2n2222a

the cordless drill battery sat all night it has 12.77 vdc in it ..

i used a 35 vdc 17000 uf cap it charges it well too .. 22vdc and climbing ..

now i did notice while chargeing and playing with the cam units .
and be carefull!!!!!!!! ok

i did not realize the cam cap had some juice in it .. i connected it to the big a$$ cap .. and HOLY SMOKES SPARKS ...

wow i had to take a 15 min break after that to see if i was brave enough to do it agin ... it litterly scared me ..

after the heart skipped a beat i hooked it up agin ... lets just say .. i was useing a cam cap it had a few hundred volts in it .. it discharged to an empty cap of many uf same voltage ..

what happened next was nothing short of amazing ... after the big spark show i ended up with 14 vdc in my large cap ... from 1 bang ......................................

hummmmmm

as i said be damm carefull if you play with this ... 400v at 2500 uf could seriously lift ya !
so the big cap i have is 2500 uf 400vdc ... not 20 000

now if we could get CHUCK BACK HERE .... lol

we could then go YOUNG EFFECT! : )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 16, 2010, 03:41:57 PM

dont mind i steal the MIC!

lol

i can use a cam unit or a ali coil to fill the first cap i could then PASS THE PUCK... : )

meaning bridge rectify off first cap ... put it to a switch to a coil to a second cap ... throw in a diode .. catch the colpase of the cap discharge from the first coil ...

i have some simple controllers .. that could control this 4 channel 5 channel 3 channel how many channel you want ...

lol

if my coils drove a pulse motor too it could get to flying fast ... : )

this unit runs with gain ... it is self explanitory ..

: )

ist!

the work performed by the motor is free ... and i will end up with more engery in my caps than i started with ..

AND IT RUNS ON A SINGLE AA...

: )

coils or bulbs or both ... lol why not both free light is good free work is good .. free engery is great!

an aa means it will run from solar or EB

: p

come on now who is going to top it ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 16, 2010, 04:23:22 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on March 16, 2010, 03:41:57 PM
dont mind i steal the MIC!

lol

i can use a cam unit or a ali coil to fill the first cap i could then PASS THE PUCK... : )

meaning bridge rectify off first cap ... put it to a switch to a coil to a second cap ... throw in a diode .. catch the colpase of the cap discharge from the first coil ...

i have some simple controllers .. that could control this 4 channel 5 channel 3 channel how many channel you want ...

lol

if my coils drove a pulse motor too it could get to flying fast ... : )

this unit runs with gain ... it is self explanitory ..

: )

ist!

the work performed by the motor is free ... and i will end up with more engery in my caps than i started with ..

AND IT RUNS ON A SINGLE AA...

: )

coils or bulbs or both ... lol why not both free light is good free work is good .. free engery is great!

an aa means it will run from solar or EB

: p

come on now who is going to top it ...

Let me get a mic check..

I have successfully got my bucking Joule thief catching the field collapse in reverse and energy amplification with fast enough switching. Lets see 1 AA to prime the caps then you can pull the AA.

Its really easy you can also run battery charging circuits to the caps that are powering the Joule thief. It works great. Oh and I am pulling power at 90 degrees to each Joule thief all one the same big toroid!

Full docs and schematics coming soon =)

Much Love,

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 16, 2010, 04:54:48 PM

Hi Altrez,

Full docs and schematics will be very helpful.
Thank you,

jeanna

Oh, what does it mean to pull power at 90 degrees?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 16, 2010, 05:02:58 PM

Quote from: jeanna on March 16, 2010, 04:54:48 PM
Hi Altrez,

Full docs and schematics will be very helpful.
Thank you,

jeanna

Oh, what does it mean to pull power at 90 degrees?

Hey jeanna!

First let me say good job on your camper lighting. that was a really good pic.

So let me explain how my idea works with the bucking effect. You have one toroid for example your biggo. You add two Joule Thief circuits at 180 degrees to each other. You then add for pickup coils each at 90 degrees.

on the pickup coils that are 90 degrees to each other you add a collection cap with a blocking diode 1n1004. This keeps the collected charge in the cap.

On the other two pickup coils you run them back to the battery of cap that is powering the Joule thief circuit. with a blocking diode on them as well.

This will charge the battery for the the Joule Thief across from the one running.

There are lots of issues to be worked out. But the basics are you are charging the source battery and collecting extra energy in the collector caps. It works and is super easy to replicate.

However the real bucking energy effect happens in a mico second. Thats where the switching comes into play. If you time it right you get a buck in the fields causing energy amplification..

Take Care,

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on March 16, 2010, 05:51:30 PM

@altrez

Are you saying you have a self runner with gain? I like the sounds of your design, do you have any pictures?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 16, 2010, 06:14:58 PM

Quote from: stprue on March 16, 2010, 05:51:30 PM
@altrez

Are you saying you have a self runner with gain? I like the sounds of your design, do you have any pictures?

Well stprue i have what might work as a self runner with gain =) I have some pictures and will post some in the next few days. Maybe tonight! I dont want to really get everyone excited about it untill I have really tested it. However I am sure you could whip a bucker up in two secounds.

At least you could see it working in basic theory. And it does work. Think of it this way, the main thing that was needed was to close the loop and by using two JT connected to the same torrid and have then in charge / receive mode you can keep the battery's charged with very little draw. Adding the pick up coils with the energy collectors on it allows you to easily see the extra energy that is collected and that then can be measured while still seeing a positive charge on the battery.

The next thing that is really exciting and for this part I am working with a timer circuit to get what I call the bucking amplification effect. If you turn off and on the Bucking Joule Thiefs quickly the two fields that are made collide and cause a huge spike. This can be seen on any stranded scope. Or collected in a cap.

Now that I feel is extra energy for sure. And its the hardiest to reproduce because timing is such an issue. You can see the effect somewhat every time but if you hit the effect perfectly then your like where did that 100 volt spike come from?

Take care,

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on March 16, 2010, 06:19:56 PM

Sounds very exciting altrez I look forward to some pic!

Thank you for the response.

:)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slapper on March 16, 2010, 07:43:45 PM

Quote from: altrez on March 16, 2010, 06:14:58 PM
Now that I feel is extra energy for sure. And its the hardiest to reproduce because timing is such an issue. You can see the effect somewhat every time but if you hit the effect perfectly then your like where did that 100 volt spike come from?

If you are picking up some spikes while making adjustments but are finding it hard to lock it in you may have to add some sweeping or frequency modulation to your set up so that you are constantly sweeping past the sweet spot. Never thought that there may be an inversion point going on in EM.

Take care.

nap

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 16, 2010, 07:47:25 PM

Quote from: altrez on March 16, 2010, 06:14:58 PM
Well stprue i have what might work as a self runner with gain =) I have some pictures and will post some in the next few days. Maybe tonight! I dont want to really get everyone excited about it untill I have really tested it. However I am sure you could whip a bucker up in two secounds.

At least you could see it working in basic theory. And it does work. Think of it this way, the main thing that was needed was to close the loop and by using two JT connected to the same torrid and have then in charge / receive mode you can keep the battery's charged with very little draw. Adding the pick up coils with the energy collectors on it allows you to easily see the extra energy that is collected and that then can be measured while still seeing a positive charge on the battery.

The next thing that is really exciting and for this part I am working with a timer circuit to get what I call the bucking amplification effect. If you turn off and on the Bucking Joule Thiefs quickly the two fields that are made collide and cause a huge spike. This can be seen on any stranded scope. Or collected in a cap.

Now that I feel is extra energy for sure. And its the hardiest to reproduce because timing is such an issue. You can see the effect somewhat every time but if you hit the effect perfectly then your like where did that 100 volt spike come from?

Take care,

-Altrez

i LOVE YA MAN!

whip the bucker up !

lol

ok

here is 1 more youll love it too!

: )

take that big ass cap i rave about ... find bout 50 smaller ones ...

and bounce em ! the big one is the battery cap ... it holds 2500 uf at upto 400v so if i was to sifon off it via a few 400v 100uf caps or something like that ...

: )

im takeing apart rf amps right now useing the power supplies for there caps ..

i will charge the big cap from a cam unit it will also fill the bangers ... : )

i lost my aa wall charger ... so i pulled out the boost cap to feed the cam units ......

: ) they work at 1v but not too well probally 1.5 is just right

yikes now i could charge the boost in 30 seconds and it could run many cams for some time each cam could have a battery cap .. then as many bangers as you desire at whatever voltage you require..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 16, 2010, 09:22:39 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on March 16, 2010, 07:47:25 PM
i LOVE YA MAN!

whip the bucker up !

lol

ok

here is 1 more youll love it too!

: )

take that big ass cap i rave about ... find bout 50 smaller ones ...

and bounce em ! the big one is the battery cap ... it holds 2500 uf at upto 400v so if i was to sifon off it via a few 400v 100uf caps or something like that ...

: )

im takeing apart rf amps right now useing the power supplies for there caps ..

i will charge the big cap from a cam unit it will also fill the bangers ... : )

i lost my aa wall charger ... so i pulled out the boost cap to feed the cam units ......

: ) they work at 1v but not too well probally 1.5 is just right

yikes now i could charge the boost in 30 seconds and it could run many cams for some time each cam could have a battery cap .. then as many bangers as you desire at whatever voltage you require..

@ist!

That rocks! Adding into the mix I think it could be used from the output of one coil hummm and then what?

this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGaOlfmX8rQ&feature=related

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 16, 2010, 09:25:21 PM

Quote from: slapper on March 16, 2010, 07:43:45 PM
If you are picking up some spikes while making adjustments but are finding it hard to lock it in you may have to add some sweeping or frequency modulation to your set up so that you are constantly sweeping past the sweet spot. Never thought that there may be an inversion point going on in EM.

Take care.

nap

Brilliant simply Brilliant. Adding a simple sweep function gen with a 555 timer and adjust as close to the sweet spot as I can. That will work..

Thank you very much for the idea.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 16, 2010, 09:25:49 PM

ill ask the clowns first...

then ill ask the real people that will answer .....

think there is a way to use a relay to fill a cap and discharge the same cap ..

i have some dubble pole single throw relays .. with normally closed and normally open connections ..

when the relay is in the off posision .. i want it to charge the cap from the big bank cap .. when i turn on the relay i want it to dump the cap .. useing the other side of the relay and aswell as when i turn on the relay it will disconnect it from source .. and when i turn it off it reconnects to be charged ..

then i will use my pwm circuit with the 555 and the fet controling the relays ... from a chaser i have laying round .. or i could tune the pwm's

W

i managed to pull 10 power boards from the rf amps ..

i have been rocked

lol

lookie the pic ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on March 16, 2010, 11:13:21 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on March 16, 2010, 09:25:49 PM
ill ask the clowns first...

then ill ask the real people that will answer .....

think there is a way to use a relay to fill a cap and discharge the same cap ..

i have some dubble pole single throw relays .. with normally closed and normally open connections ..

when the relay is in the off posision .. i want it to charge the cap from the big bank cap .. when i turn on the relay i want it to dump the cap .. useing the other side of the relay and aswell as when i turn on the relay it will disconnect it from source .. and when i turn it off it reconnects to be charged ..

then i will use my pwm circuit with the 555 and the fet controling the relays ... from a chaser i have laying round .. or i could tune the pwm's

W

i managed to pull 10 power boards from the rf amps ..

i have been rocked

lol

lookie the pic ..

Well... I'm not sure if I'm a clown or one of the real people butt...

N.C. connection = Capacitor bank
N.O. connection = Load
Common = fill/discharge Cap.

You will only need one set of contacts. If you want, you could connect both sets of contacts together to help share the load since you are probably talking about some pretty high currents.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 17, 2010, 03:16:44 AM

i think the clowns all left ....

i made a video to share now i accept no responcibility for people being dumb...
so if you get hurt useing work i release public it is your own fault !

be that knowen ..

mr mags glad your round .. keep us from getting too wild ... : )

this is verry dangrous indeed !

but i have de soldered many 350vdc caps 270uf i plan on triggering the dump of thease and chargeing them from an aa .. useing the flash unit showen in my video ..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jpGj4wXUX4

sure i will need 2 ...

1 charges 1 dumps .. and they are out of phase of 1 another ...

notice how i run the loa standard electrical princibles .. in my video from an aa .....

as well the voltage climbes high fast to 308vdc while burning the loa bulb .. and i also get the neon wobble ...

look good and hard at the effect of the the neon this is not doctored in anyway this is my raw footage i shot a while ago .. if i was to OPTO CUPPLE from the wobble neon and feed from the neon wich i can do with out effect to the cam board operation

by adding a diode or a bridge to the neon and a cap ..

you then have a 300v dc feed wich you can feed back to the source some how ....... maybe recharge a aa then just flip batteries ... it probally wont be a good idea to dirrectly close the loop via the neon .. as you may end up blowing the transistor ... im not sure ... but a super cap would work great i bet .... lol

W

what if ..... i had 30 disposable cameras run off a boost cap ... and took 30 300v neon wobbles .. to the boost supply ... and charged that big cap ... think i could lite a few light bulbs ? ...

i know it lites a 60 watt for few or 4 seconds ... from just draining that big cap ... now i do have lower volt caps more uf ... but they apear to be quire crappy for liteing bulbs ... they drain extreamly fast ..

clearly a voltage thing .. and i have charged that big cap to over 300vdc .. easly .. from 1 single aa and if i do not draw from the big cap the neon will wobble on the stored engery in that cap for a really long time maybe 20 min ... then when it stops liteing in a few seconds pushing the charge button it is good to go agin ...

: ) for another 20 min ... : )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: woopy on March 17, 2010, 06:33:20 AM

Hi all

I made further test with my air core coil JT, and i need your help.

Here under i enclosed the last shematic in comparison with Xee2 last one.

By accident i separeted the primary (5 turns) coil from the 60 turns secondary and i got better results on my neon bulb.

So i made different test and i could decrease the resistor down from 470 k to 2.2 k. Than i could reuse the 2N222 a transistor.

Than i could tune the lightness of the bulb by separating more or less the primary coil Amazing !

But my great question to you is HOW DOES IT WORK with the neon bulb connected to a very small antenna and it lights very brightly ?

And how is it possible to get scope trace without the crocodile probe connected to anything ?

Excuse me to be ignorant but i have always understood that there must be a path for the current to go back to source and it seems not to be the case here ?

I enclose here some pix

1 shematic with modif

2 small loop antenna (red wire) and scope probe installement

3 Coils separation for tuning (notice the distance with the spacer)

4 scope trace of the scope only (without neon connected) p to p voltage at 366 volts

5 scope trace with neon connected

What's happenning here ?

Thanks

Laurent

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on March 17, 2010, 08:17:40 AM

Quote from: woopy on March 17, 2010, 06:33:20 AM
Hi all

I made further test with my air core A JT, and i need your help.

Here under i enclosed the last shematic in comparison with Xee2 last one.

By accident i separeted the primary (5 turns) coil from the 60 turns secondary and i got better results on my neon bulb.

So i made different test and i could decrease the resistor down from 470 k to 2.2 k. Than i could reuse the 2N222 a transistor.

Than i could tune the lightness of the bulb by separating more or less the primary coil Amazing !

But my great question to you is HOW DOES IT WORK with the neon bulb connected to a very small antenna and it lights very brightly ?

And how is it possible to get scope A without the crocodile probe connected to anything ?

Excuse me to be ignorant but i have always understood that there must be a path for the current to go back to source and it seems not to be the case here ?

I enclose here some pix

1 shematic with modif

2 small loop antenna (red wire) and scope probe installement

3 Coils separation for tuning (notice the distance with the spacer)

4 scope trace of the scope only (without neon connected) p to p voltage at 366 volts

5 scope trace with neon connected

What's happenning here ?

Thanks

Laurent

Nice going Woopy

If your using more than 3v try disconnecting the resistor from the transistor base after it's started.
It should keep running and lower the current intake quite a bit.

Your neon lights from the small antenna your using.
It exites the environment around it and the energy comes in from both ways.
You should be able to light the neon by holding one lead of the neon and hold it up by the coil.

I'm not sure if you seem my last video but it will light a big flicker light thats like a neon and FL tubes with no wires.

Here is the video if you havent seen it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXhzeNXr11I

Also a bigger coil will work better for you.
Mine the L1 coil is 4.80 mH and the L2 coil is 5 uH.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 17, 2010, 10:52:29 AM

Quote from: woopy on March 17, 2010, 06:33:20 AM
And how is it possible to get scope trace without the crocodile probe connected to anything ?

There is a connection through the air by capacitive coupling between two wires that are acting as plates of a capacitor. At these frequencies power can be transferred through very small capacitance values.

Have you tried using less than 5 turns on your primary coil instead of moving it away?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 17, 2010, 11:25:43 AM

here is 1 for ya ..

whats going on here ... ?? i charge a cam flash it blinkes a neon .... yay! i take the battery out of it ......

the neon still blinks... how? why ? i pulse the god damm thing it speeds up ... why ? how?

i take a feed out to a supercap it charges it ... how? why? i then feed back the god damm thing .. it is now self running how god damm hard is it humans ?

why how why how.

go to school ..

i got my grade 10 rickey!

W

wont be long we will be sueing many !!

all the little #UCKERS that stole my work ...

THE LONGER I SIT NOT BEING PAYED FOR MY WORK THE BIGGER I BITE YOU ALL !

; ) WATCH ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 17, 2010, 11:49:01 AM

ever see a pissed off god ?

sometimes ... i think it is best i destory my creations ..

this is one of those times ..

too bad i had hope for humans .. i fought her 13 years ..

1 reason i did what i have the dream to have a life ... and spend the time with my children wich i see bout 4 times a year on avarge .. the fucking gov took them away ... so fuck em !

i got the worlds biggest gun !

but they all stole ... so i burn em all

first i burn your wallet out of your pocket ...

next ... well thats your call !

W

the choises i make dirrectly effect this entire planet! no body wanted to market a stupid simple goddam flash light and pay me ... so .. now i guess you will not use my work to benifit yourself .. as i will sue and win hands down !

it will be settled b4 it goes to court!

: )

how long is my list ?

?

1800 pattends ... yikes ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: woopy on March 17, 2010, 12:04:33 PM

Hi Slayer

Thanks a lot for info

So i deed it and it worrks well for a first try

The L1 is 4.4 mh (with 0.3 mm copper) and L2 is 7 micro h (0.5 mm copper)

Transistor is 2N3904 and voltage is 3,7 volts (old 4.5 volts battery)

the scope trace shows more than 600 volts p to p

@ Xee2

thanks for this explanation but i am very surprised of what we can do with thin air. You mean that my whole shop is an art of big capacitor really amazing ! Does it also explain why the CFL lights without any connection to anything ?

@ Ist

Yes i am at good school here and learn a lot thank you and a good prof as you should be proud of so good students keep on the good work.

regards

Laurent

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 17, 2010, 12:10:45 PM

im damm proud! proud of all that learned!
and im damm pissed too ...

it is the ballance thing ...
sorry if i freq out every now and then ...

i cant help it .. i sit here starved !
but i guess ill make it through ...

if i dont pass it on to the ones it belongs to !

W

BTW COTTEN EYE JOE ... GET YOUR MONEY OUT .. B4 I ACTIVTE THINGS YOU OWN ... I CAN DO IT FROM HERE !

MAYBE SOME GET HOT FAST OTHERS MAYBE COLD ...

maybe it will melt to a puddle of jelly b4 your verry eyes ... !

i guess it is back to scraping junk to make it through 1 more day ...

this HUMAN WORLD IS A BAG OF SHIT !

AND I GOT SOMETHING THAT TURNS IT TO GOLD .. : )

BUT WHY GIVE YOU MORE ... WHY? Y ? Y ?

I HEAR THERE IS A WAY TO MAKE DESIAL FUEL FROM METHANINE ... HUMMMMMMMMMMMM

useing a crystal ...

pile of shit from the barn to fuel for your tractor ... lol

but nawwwwww

why is all i can say!

why give you all more ... when i have not been payed for the first thing i gave ... nor the 10 000 that followed the first!

so pay me !

you all know sometimes i wish you would just have let me sleep ! why open my box ? only to break my heart agin !

hell with your shit world !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: giantkiller on March 17, 2010, 01:31:35 PM

872 pages of progress....

The coil in the Joule thief is a rendition of a pancake coil. The first field lap then bites its tail by feeding another field up behind itself via the second lap.
As Tinselkoala stated ' The pancake makes a very good transmitter'.

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=TinselKoala#p/u/186/mvb39SwTXBE (http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=TinselKoala#p/u/186/mvb39SwTXBE)

Now take the JT and power a bigger pancake(vid #5):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODc943KCFLw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODc943KCFLw)

To air couple an LED. Should light up, no?

In fact I bet you the pancake output need less to do its job than the LED or light. That would state that the magnetic field is produced with less energy. 8)

You don't have to see it to believe it.

I gotta try a AAbatt to a NST to a cap to a sparkgap or a self vibrating relay to a pancake then air coupled to a coil and LED. In resonance it should charge pulse back to the battery. ;D

--gk. Every wonder what the 2 dashes mean?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 17, 2010, 01:46:59 PM

Quote from: woopy on March 17, 2010, 12:04:33 PM
Hi Slayer

Thanks a lot for info

So i deed it and it worrks well for a first try

The L1 is 4.4 mh (with 0.3 mm copper) and L2 is 7 micro h (0.5 mm copper)

Transistor is 2N3904 and voltage is 3,7 volts (old 4.5 volts battery)

the scope trace shows more than 600 volts p to p

@ Xee2

thanks for this explanation but i am very surprised of what we can do with thin air. You mean that my whole shop is an art of big capacitor really amazing ! Does it also explain why the CFL lights without any connection to anything ?

@ Ist

Yes i am at good school here and learn a lot thank you and a good prof as you should be proud of so good students keep on the good work.

regards

Laurent

Hello! The tubes light because they are excited from the RF your are generating with your antenna coil. The better the coil the farther away you can go.

You can also use an AV plug to test with. A good example of one is about 30 pages back I think.

Nice work!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 17, 2010, 02:32:27 PM

nice of you to show up gk

what do the dashes mean?

nice videos ... whats the limit on the wattsup style ... out put wize per coil ...

there is no way it is 2.5 volt limit ... lol

i got 2 birds .. for the god damm fools!

nlm nlm

joe is gonna burn !

i have a 14 page contract how they tryed to steal my work with there big words .. too bad there is always a better lawayer .....

W

how about that print thred button joe ... did you study my every word ... ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUTXb-ga1fo

i know whats right and I WONT BACK DOWN ...

I WILL STAND MY GROUND !

here is a song just for JOE!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ

any how just a bad day i guess...

lol

but it would be really nice to sell even just 1 crappy thing i got laying round ...

but it dont matter

i guess ill build the cap thing ... as i had to take a break from the darn power ring ...

im just sick of the same old crap ...

bla bla bla ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: maw2432 on March 17, 2010, 05:16:33 PM

Everyone, here is a good price for Kodak boards.

http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=g17610

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 17, 2010, 05:33:45 PM

Quote from: maw2432 on March 17, 2010, 05:16:33 PM
Everyone, here is a good price for Kodak boards.

http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=g17610

Bill

: )

i feel better now ... lol

i have always liked gold mine ..

those are the same boards i used to charge my big cap .. i cant even bother to wind coils right now ...

now if i posted the plasma transformer .. it will scare you .. run it from a cam board ... hummm

its 9kv

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: giantkiller on March 17, 2010, 06:33:48 PM

One pulse firing into another.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 17, 2010, 07:43:01 PM

Quote from: giantkiller on March 17, 2010, 06:33:48 PM
One pulse firing into another.

ic

i have a tonne of ways to the same answer ...

and my children are here finally .. : )

and im told i must build! errrr

im getting sick of building things .. im really thinking i should have stuck to banging nails .. cuz you could have the most advanced tecks on the face of planet earth ... but who cares ... humans dont !

thats why they get sick ...

here is something to think about ... water floats on gas ...

W

i started out down a dirty road ........ i started out all alone ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mmSTt2299w&feature=related

town lit up the world got still!

i just got the OK TO SELL A FEW DIMONDS ..... : )

then it goes light speed ...

i hope you all can keep up

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 18, 2010, 12:15:51 AM

This circuit seems to be fairly fool proof. It even survives hooking battery up backwards. It has a lot of output power and will light a tube wirelessly (not as impressive as slayer007 does though). I have built this several times and it always works. It also works with a lot of different coils. Based on slayer007 and k1zm designs.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 18, 2010, 12:18:39 AM

my 4" ALI COIL .. is almost a compleat self running coil system ..

if you look how i back load the coil .. it is much how the cam flash unit works..

but for the ali coil you need to find a load for the front end that allows the unit to back load a BIG VALUE CAP

then you add the neon .. and when it fills it starts to feed its self and i bet you can remove the battery ...

and the front end will continue to run ..

regards ..

sorry i was an ass .. we all can be ..

but how much can 1 person take ...

w

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sirmikey1 on March 18, 2010, 01:44:59 AM

Here is a photo of the AV plug...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 18, 2010, 10:48:32 AM

Quote from: woopy on March 17, 2010, 12:04:33 PM
@ Xee2

thanks for this explanation but i am very surprised of what we can do with thin air. You mean that my whole shop is an art of big capacitor really amazing ! Does it also explain why the CFL lights without any connection to anything ?

Yes. The effect is more obvious when you actually do it. You need a large conductive object on each end of the tube for it to couple to in order for the tube to light wirelessly. With higher voltage and higher frequency the spacing can be larger.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 18, 2010, 10:50:13 AM

Quote from: woopy on March 17, 2010, 12:04:33 PM
Hi Slayer

Thanks a lot for info

So i deed it and it worrks well for a first try

The L1 is 4.4 mh (with 0.3 mm copper) and L2 is 7 micro h (0.5 mm copper)

Transistor is 2N3904 and voltage is 3,7 volts (old 4.5 volts battery)

the scope trace shows more than 600 volts p to p

@ Xee2

thanks for this explanation but i am very surprised of what we can do with thin air. You mean that my whole shop is an art of big capacitor really amazing ! Does it also explain why the CFL lights without any connection to anything ?

@ Ist

Yes i am at good school here and learn a lot thank you and a good prof as you should be proud of so good students keep on the good work.

regards

Laurent

im glad you came here to work with us ! im not at all angry with those that work and try things .. how could i be ?

i get angry at the ones that know im right and bad mouth me .. or try to steer the reserch off its course ..

i have not steered off its corse ever ..

it is all the kick .. stright up!

all my things work like this .. it is an interuption of the flows of the juice .. some are super high teck others super simple ..

fact ... all work cuz i interupt the flow ..

W

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 18, 2010, 11:10:55 AM

Quote from: xee2 on March 18, 2010, 10:48:32 AM
Yes. The effect is more obvious when you actually do it. You need a large conductive object on each end of the tube for it to couple to in order for the tube to light wirelessly. With higher voltage and higher frequency the spacing can be larger.

wireless is the same thing ... but i beleave it is currently done incorrectly ...

: )

you need to have a pulse coil ... 3 turn tesla ozone ... tesla pancake ... what ever you find to work best ...

it MUST BE BLOCKED TO THE SOURCE .. WICH MEANS YOU MUST NOT ALLOW THE COLPASE TO BACK FEED TO SOURCE ... what is the result ?

if you have just a simple coil and block it via spark gap or bridge rectifier .. then what happens ...

this is what happens .. you send a pulse of engery to the coil .. it makes a feild your pulse ends ... the feild colpases .. but where can it go .. ? as you blocked it ... well first off you just charged the area around the coil .. set up a potencial diffrance .. in the eather ... so the eather went more 1 way than the other ...

when you cut the pulse it must restore ballance .. if you have conductive material near the charged area .. it will land there .. hence electro static effects .. on tools door knobs and such things ...

if you go alum ... inside the force feeded coil it will convert the higher freq to a lower one it will compound on the surface of the alum .. indoing so it backs up ... as your pulse it much faster .. than alum can handle ..

therefore you gain in amps ...

as it colpases it has an inrush from the charged eather ..

agin a million ways to the same ..

just thoughts .. as people want to play wireless...

be carefull it can get extream fast!

i prefer simple contained kicks in a core ..

here is a laptop screen plasma transformer ..

output says 1500v

W

btw im doing the same thing in a toroide .. by not takeing from the transistor ... this keeps the colpase magnetic ... and it flows out the secondary ...

J's coil does the exact same thing ... why her bulbs lite so nice ... it is because she does not tap the back side she forces the colpase to flow out the secondary ..

TESLAS CAR WORKS THE EXACT SAME WAY ... BUT THE SECONDARY IS THE MOTOR COIL ... THE COLPASE IS USED AS MOTIVE FORCE ...

: )
i will add the high volt plasma transformers .. a pic next ! thease can be found in any desk top plasma screen tv .. or comp monitor!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 18, 2010, 11:25:03 AM

The circuit I posted on previous page can also be used to blink 7 watt 110 volt filament bulb.

video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSf4iOtUAd0&feature=channel

EDIT: Yeh, it really makes that noise (toroid turns vibrating).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 18, 2010, 11:59:32 AM

the entire plasma screen runs 100vac 1 amp ..

so that is what 100 watts ..

as per manifacture design ...

pop out the transformers ..

now your down to almost nothing to run it ...

W

being this is only a 1 wire primary .. you can run it from a jt ... be it secondary fired or .. simple ce tap point ..

you could run it 2 time ... meaning jt runs really fast vhf ... fills a cap ... you use cap as power supply for transistor that fires plasma tranny ... or use a fet and freq genny to lock the desired output freq!

as per device design ..

ie if you want to melt metal set it to the freq ... if you want to lite cfl .. set it to the freq ... if you .. want to fracture water ... set it to the freq ...

bla bla bla ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: giantkiller on March 18, 2010, 12:09:15 PM

Iron core single side Multipactor. Monopactor?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 18, 2010, 12:56:33 PM

Quote from: giantkiller on March 18, 2010, 12:09:15 PM
Iron core single side Multipactor. Monopactor?

lol

i think i can swing that lol

man good thing for good souls...

!

could this design not be improved GK?

: )

W

i know it can .. but it needs a choke and a good source of bounce current .. ma draw goes way down and it self runs ..

CALL IT MY SELF RUNNING PLASMA FERROITE TRANSFORMER POWER SUPPLY ..

infact ... I WILL GIVE IT TO STEVE! HE CAN NAME IT...

i just hooked up a gadget solar pannel im impressed!

2 bucks each ..to a db107 then to 2 duracell rechargeables 2650 mah instantly they start chargeing i took it out side in dirrect light hooked up a meter .. they charge well from 1 pannel ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 18, 2010, 02:54:44 PM

now if i go super cap ... you have a simple batteryless inputless portable power system that spits kv ..

what freq do you desire?

did i mention it fits in your hand and is the size of an i pod ...

a is for APPLE ...

: )

W

solar is back up top up kick starter .. lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: woopy on March 18, 2010, 07:03:11 PM

Hi Sirmikey and Xee2

thanks for your answers

Yes the Avramenko works fine and now i am prisonner of a huge capacitor woww!

But more seriously i still do not understand the phisics of all of this phenomena. What is "exiting" the room air to get a real electrical contact between the dipoles of any kind to make them work ?

For example in the Avramenko there is one antenna and than a rectified (with diode ) closed circuit and i see NO dipole or no potential diference that is to say one entry and no exit that is no real circuit and it works Sorry but why and how?

Sorry to be insistant but the student is puzzled.

lot of fun to go on this thread

regards

Laurent

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 18, 2010, 07:34:16 PM

Quote from: woopy on March 18, 2010, 07:03:11 PM
Hi Sirmikey and Xee2

thanks for your answers

Yes the Avramenko works fine and now i am prisonner of a huge capacitor woww!

But more seriously i still do not understand the phisics of all of this phenomena. What is "exiting" the room air to get a real electrical contact between the dipoles of any kind to make them work ?

For example in the Avramenko there is one antenna and than a rectified (with diode ) closed circuit and i see NO dipole or no potential diference that is to say one entry and no exit that is no real circuit and it works Sorry but why and how?

Sorry to be insistant but the student is puzzled.

lot of fun to go on this thread

regards

Laurent

Its RF.

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on March 18, 2010, 08:06:11 PM

Quote from: woopy on March 18, 2010, 07:03:11 PM
Hi Sirmikey and Xee2

thanks for your answers

Yes the Avramenko works fine and now i am prisonner of a huge capacitor woww!

But more seriously i still do not understand the phisics of all of this phenomena. What is "exiting" the room air to get a real electrical contact between the dipoles of any kind to make them work ?

For example in the Avramenko there is one antenna and than a rectified (with diode ) closed circuit and i see NO dipole or no potential diference that is to say one entry and no exit that is no real circuit and it works Sorry but why and how?

Sorry to be insistant but the student is puzzled.

lot of fun to go on this thread

regards

Laurent

It looks like your getting very nice results now Woopy.
You should have even better results using a pancake coil for L2.(Use plastic coated wire)

Dr Stiffler has some very good Documents explaining his Coherence theory.
And some experiments to try with it.Like maybe a second wireless tower.

http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/6820479?from_badge_documents_button=1

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 18, 2010, 10:04:12 PM

are you exciteing the gas in the tube ?

?

check out this kick in toy ..

2 cams 2 caps bat ... a 555 pwm a relay 2 out put caps and a 60w light bulb ...

i plan on LITEING THE 60WATT BULB .. AND POWERING THE PWM AND REALY FROM 2 AA BATTERIES .. !

IST!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sirmikey1 on March 19, 2010, 12:51:33 AM

One of Dr. Stiffler's videos, he calls it "stray capacitance".
Some folks here have called it RF, radio transmitter.
It's likely unsafe.
sm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on March 19, 2010, 03:01:24 AM

Quote from: sirmikey1 on March 19, 2010, 12:51:33 AM
It's likely unsafe.

likely? how is this? do you have any measured data to back this up? how did you come to this conclusion?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: woopy on March 19, 2010, 04:35:50 AM

Thanks to all

i will try the pancake coil and read the Dr Stiffler doc

I have to go away for some days i will resume the experiments next week

lot of fun to all

Laurent

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sirmikey1 on March 19, 2010, 08:35:14 AM

From Stiffler's page:

USERS OF SEC EXCITERS ASSUME ALL RESPONSIBILITY
AND RISK FOR THE USE OF THESE DEVICES

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 19, 2010, 09:38:03 AM

Quote from: sirmikey1 on March 19, 2010, 08:35:14 AM
From Stiffler's page:

USERS OF SEC EXCITERS ASSUME ALL RESPONSIBILITY
AND RISK FOR THE USE OF THESE DEVICES

i beleave them to be dangrous .. !

it all depends upon there freq of operation ...

if your antena was tuned to your brainwaves ... perhaps there risks.. nevermind all the weird crap that can happen from playing air core

but agin all has its place ...

i still perfer a self running thing that you just bring with ya...

and contained in a core ..

i have done things with air core coils i did not like .. and we wont go to details ..

yes they can cause odd effects ...

and if there children in the house ...

IT IS BEST NOT TO PLAY THAT CARD ..

here is a simple event that may happen .. you will hate yourself for life ... so be wize ..

say i was playing with a high power air coil .. just playing round with a coil un aware of the effects of such a thing .. and my kids come into the room and say daddy lets play they grab the door handel you are in the middle of an expairment ... you had no idea the door knob had 50 000 volts sitting on the surface .. your child just found out ... THE WRONG WAY ...

NOW HOW DO YOU FEEL ?

IST

BE WIZE!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on March 19, 2010, 03:02:41 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on March 19, 2010, 09:38:03 AM
i beleave them to be dangrous .. !

it all depends upon there freq of operation ...

if your antena was tuned to your brainwaves ... perhaps there risks.. nevermind all the weird crap that can happen from playing air core

but agin all has its place ...

i still perfer a self running thing that you just bring with ya...

and contained in a core ..

i have done things with air core coils i did not like .. and we wont go to details ..

yes they can cause odd effects ...

and if there children in the house ...

IT IS BEST NOT TO PLAY THAT CARD ..

here is a simple event that may happen .. you will hate yourself for life ... so be wize ..

say i was playing with a high power air coil .. just playing round with a coil un aware of the effects of such a thing .. and my kids come into the room and say daddy lets play they grab the door handel you are in the middle of an expairment ... you had no idea the door knob had 50 000 volts sitting on the surface .. your child just found out ... THE WRONG WAY ...

NOW HOW DO YOU FEEL ?

IST

BE WIZE!

Spot on IST,

All these experiments using open ended antenna's can not only be a possible or probable health hazard at close proximity but as IST mentioned the build up of potential static charges within the vicinity could be fatal!!! One other point worth mentioning here to be critically aware of! These are RF transmission devices in various forms which have the capability of distant radio signal transmission across the radio frequency networks!! Operating such devices can create untold havoc with sensitive equipment over a considerable distance.

I whole heatedly agree with ist in experimenting with closed loop inductive type systems. Not for me to discourage experiments... only to re iterate this GOOD ADVICE

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Eastov on March 19, 2010, 08:35:50 PM

Lidmotor did a video showing that the waves are multiple
compounding waves. What fequency are the spikes?

My neighbor's pace-maker?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 20, 2010, 04:38:33 AM

Using 6 turn primary and 250 turn secondary on 3.38" toroid with the two transistor circuit produces increased output power and circuit runs quiet.

7 watt 110 volt bulb video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E35pxEGd-Fs

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on March 20, 2010, 08:16:00 AM

@xee wow thats impressive. altraz lets see yours! xee what is the ma pull?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: detrix42 on March 20, 2010, 08:18:02 AM

Hello to everyone. I am very new to the JT circuit. I have built one yesterday and lit up 3 LEDs off one AA battery. wow. I have only read the first 13 pages of posts in this forum, so I apologise, if my questions here were answered in the 860+ pages I have not read. I am a Joseph Newman advocate. I have 9 videos on youtube, just type in my username in the search to see my works. I have a third larger motor in the works. check out my thread in the Newman motor section. I detail the construction of the third motor in the second motor thread. ???

I am here because of Jarado2600 has been telling me about the JT circuit, and he has posted a suggested schematic to my thread. I am not much of an electronics engineer (yet), so I am not entirely sure of what values to use in a JT circuit to get what I am looking for, which is:

I want to work with say 12v, stepped up to 1000+v, which will then be the source to my motor coils.

Is this possible?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on March 20, 2010, 09:24:53 AM

Quote from: detrix42 on March 20, 2010, 08:18:02 AM
Hello to everyone. I am very new to the JT circuit. I have built one yesterday and lit up 3 LEDs off one AA battery. wow. I have only read the first 13 pages of posts in this forum, so I apologise, if my questions here were answered in the 860+ pages I have not read. I am a Joseph Newman advocate. I have 9 videos on youtube, just type in my username in the search to see my works. I have a third larger motor in the works. check out my thread in the Newman motor section. I detail the construction of the third motor in the second motor thread. ???

I am here because of Jarado2600 has been telling me about the JT circuit, and he has posted a suggested schematic to my thread. I am not much of an electronics engineer (yet), so I am not entirely sure of what values to use in a JT circuit to get what I am looking for, which is:

I want to work with say 12v, stepped up to 1000+v, which will then be the source to my motor coils.

Is this possible?

Hi detrix,

You'll certainly find a wealth of ideas for various projects within this thread. The JT circuit will produce very high voltages from a very low input source voltage, and many of thedesigns reflect the need to keep the source voltage low at around 1.5v. The JT concept will work at higher voltages of course by experimenting with component values. Also consider the use of boost converters which could be more efficient for your purposes. You can use MOSFET devices more effectively or even IGBT semiconductors for your purposes. Either way the circuits can still be kept simple. 1000volts is rather a high value so i presume the coil impedance's are going to be quite high! otherwise I shudder to think of what DC currents are otherwise likely to be considered in your designs!!! If your 1000volts needs to be accurate and stable then a PWM driven circuit will be a must. Don't be frightened by the technical terms.... if you don't understand just ask, there's enough Guys and Girls here only to willing to offer their help.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 20, 2010, 10:27:53 AM

Quote from: detrix42 on March 20, 2010, 08:18:02 AM
Hello to everyone. I am very new to the JT circuit. I have built one yesterday and lit up 3 LEDs off one AA battery. wow. I have only read the first 13 pages of posts in this forum, so I apologise, if my questions here were answered in the 860+ pages I have not read. I am a Joseph Newman advocate. I have 9 videos on youtube, just type in my username in the search to see my works. I have a third larger motor in the works. check out my thread in the Newman motor section. I detail the construction of the third motor in the second motor thread. ???

I am here because of Jarado2600 has been telling me about the JT circuit, and he has posted a suggested schematic to my thread. I am not much of an electronics engineer (yet), so I am not entirely sure of what values to use in a JT circuit to get what I am looking for, which is:

I want to work with say 12v, stepped up to 1000+v, which will then be the source to my motor coils.

Is this possible?

WELCOME!

you picked a great day to join us .. as i just saw my children like 3 days!

: )

i probally wont freq out for a while agin ..

and you sound verry keen! there for i will work right beside you !

a newman is the same thing .. so you got your foot far more than in the door !

lets get your motor running! head out on the highway! looking for adventure ..

and what ever comes our way!

: )

W

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdiWEmTpwCY

explode into space ! : )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 20, 2010, 12:35:57 PM

just cuz im totally nutz and my brain never shuts down!

check out this one ...

a while ago i was doing pulse motor tests .. and i had kool effects .. where i plugged on a 12vdc battery with croded termanials and i was able to charge it at higher freq and high voltage .. i used a cam board to back load the big cap ..

ok thing ran hours back loaded some where round 270 vdc i cant remember now the voltage .. it is not important ..

this is what is ... the effect was dirrectly caused from the corosion .. on the termanials ..

this will be a legnetly post .. few years ago i was boating camping trip down the river with a bunch of friends .. i had 3 12dv batteries in the old boat .. it was in bad shape .. i had a 12vdc motor to power the boat .. so after the long float and baileing the water .. we make it to 300 feet from the camp site ..

WE SINK THE BOAT .. it was a dark by this time .. we set out bout 4pm .. so all gear was lost the batteries sunk to the bottom of the river .. we said heck with it ... walked the rest of the way .. got to the site told what had happened ..

next morning we went back for what ever we could recover .. i managed to get the batteries motor and a few other things that were heavy as they sunk right to the bottom ... it was a rappid we traveled through

so all lite weight things floated down the river and were lost ! never to be refound !

anyhow i get the batteries back to the site .. to my surprize they are still full .. after over 12 hours under water .. now 2 of thease were brand new fully charged batteries and not small ones at that ..

altho there was a coating on the termanials ...

: )

it was a ruff weekend .. all in all : ( but when i look back .. with eyes open wide .. : )

things become clearer

so

basically i think i have come up with a device wich coats the termanals of the 12vdc batteries ..

i will at some point try this .. i will take 4 top post lead termanals and i will make a split hho cell pos pos and neg neg ..

i will coat the termanals .. and make pos termanals and neg ones ..

perhaps they can bolt right on any 12vdc battery and allow high volt high freq chargeing of the translator ..

ist!

: )

now watch this video ... lmfao

some one need a dish ? lol

; )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1EVmmzOMD4&NR=1

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 20, 2010, 01:59:50 PM

since im right charged up ...

lets even go like this ...

: )

mirror dish ... nano coated transponder... led lol we could build it a few ways ...

may even be able to throw a freon solar sun chaser swivel on the FREE ENGERY RECIEVER .. ..

hummmmm

ist!

if we did it right we can get sat signals tv signals radio ... sunlight dirrected engery high teck lite to electric dirrect conversion .. from the coated leds.. cluster .. : ) and if your parabolic was alum and your ground plate was zink ... ot other dissimilar materials .. you can get cosmic rays yet too .. the freon reacts in the sun light it is in a sealed containment system to follow sunlight ... if there is a safe clean replace ment for freon than that could be used

in thinking about this ... i discover sunlight heating of freon and the dirrect heat to electric conversion gadget was working on ...

aswell! grampa owned a large fruit farm operation i can remember as a child the HEAT PROUDCED OFF THE 3 HUGE SCHOOL GYM SIZED CA ROOMS .... controlled atsmophere the compresser room heated the entire packing room! wich was VERRY LARGE

in the rememberance of this ... i chat with the old boy! lol

he's LIKE run it backward .... take an airconditioner and reverse the operation to HEAT YOUR HOUSE ....

hummmm agin ...

now HOW BOUT THOSE FREON SUN POWER STICKS ; ) HEAT TO ELECTRIC CONVERSION STICKS ...

: )

THEASE ARE ALL TRUE POSSIBLE METHODS AND SOURCES TO RUN YOUR BEDINI STYLE JT TPU UNIT ..

AND WITH THE AID OF GADGET BILL J MK1 XEE KOOLER ST AND ALL OTHERS ... WELL

THIS IS YOUR HUMAN EXPERIENCE ..

AS WELL AS ALL OTHERS I NEVER MENTIONED .. : ( I COULD GO ON FOREVER ON THAT BUT ... YOU ALL KNOW WHO YOU ARE .. : )

: )

THE THANKS AND MY HARD WORK AND EFFORDS ARE SHARED !

LIKE I SAID IT HAS ONLY JUST BEGUN ... I GOT 12 SPARE DECKS OF CARDS .. YET ...

: )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 20, 2010, 03:08:39 PM

Quote from: detrix42 on March 20, 2010, 08:18:02 AM
Hello to everyone. I am very new to the JT circuit. I have built one yesterday and lit up 3 LEDs off one AA battery. wow. I have only read the first 13 pages of posts in this forum, so I apologise, if my questions here were answered in the 860+ pages I have not read. I am a Joseph Newman advocate. I have 9 videos on youtube, just type in my username in the search to see my works. I have a third larger motor in the works. check out my thread in the Newman motor section. I detail the construction of the third motor in the second motor thread. ???

I am here because of Jarado2600 has been telling me about the JT circuit, and he has posted a suggested schematic to my thread. I am not much of an electronics engineer (yet), so I am not entirely sure of what values to use in a JT circuit to get what I am looking for, which is:

I want to work with say 12v, stepped up to 1000+v, which will then be the source to my motor coils.

Is this possible?

detrix42

Welcome to the JT thread

As I see it the problem you might have is getting enough current to run your Newman machine
How much current to you need?

Starting with 12 V getting 1000 V with a JT is easy........
I use TIP2055s most of the time
I use a 750k resistor and a 2K pot on the base.
Ocasionaly I reduce the 7.5K resistor to around half of that .........but in general I like my transistors to run cool.........so I keep the base resistance high

Keep reading the thread at least until you have a good grasp of how to make a secondary ........ the secondary is where it is at with JTs.

For the most part.... the JT primarys are used just to create the pulses..........the usable energy is taken from the secondary.

What are you planning on using as a core for your JTs
For higher power I suggest a larger toroid 2 in or better.........or
a flyback transformer out of a old TV or monitor
My candy cane coils would work too.........they are made with smaller toroids a pair of wires is wound same direction and usually same number of winds on a number of toroids ( in series )
A primary can be added by either adding another winding with just a couple wraps around each toroid.........or a bifilar pair can be ran through the centers of all the toroids .....I usually use 4 wraps likle this.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 20, 2010, 03:21:56 PM

FOR SLAYER007 AND GARY ...

: )

check out the celefone chargers i have about 8 of em ... bought them way back ...

how bout you throw a few in a box ... the ma out is a bit as i recall ..

plus ... i bet i can add feed back to source off the led .....

hummmmm

maybe ill tackle that one after the list i just brain farted out !

lol

W

here is something else some one could try .. microwave magnet. pancake. rs spool. (pickup) pancake magnet ..

stacked .. jt it ..

both pancakes bifillar speeker wire .. wired top to bottom ... get it ...

push both 1 way then the other ...

ill just whip one up for visual purpouses .. fire it from the cellfone boards .. in a box... : )

here some pictures of the little bucker ..

XEE#2 you need a bass drum to bang the high hats with : )

i only threw 1 pancake in it as i was lazy .. : P

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on March 20, 2010, 05:07:24 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on March 20, 2010, 01:59:50 PM

LIKE I SAID IT HAS ONLY JUST BEGUN ... I GOT 12 SPARE DECKS OF CARDS .. YET ...

Yes, but are they full decks?? :) :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 20, 2010, 05:18:33 PM

sure all new and un opened ...

lol

see i got thease till spools... lol lol

hole bunch ...

: )

want to see a unit ? lol it runs very very vhf... lol cost me bout 60 cents to make 1 ... lol

im gonna put a bunch in a ring around some alum

lmfao!

W

heck they even got 12 holes lol evenly spaced ...

: )

here are some more pics till spool air core jt to be stuck between 2 alum plates .. ; ) on the back of a solar pannel and then to the boost cap bank ...

a unit bout 6" thick mount it anywhere ... plug the dish into it for nitetime charge ...

NO BATTERY BANK NEED ALL IS KEPT AT THE PANNELS ..

connect direct to house feed / grid tie backfeed!

there is not much i could not build ..

: )

it could be considered a solar powered multi spinner flux cap ... surface charge effect ... vhf ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on March 20, 2010, 06:45:08 PM

Quote from: stprue on March 20, 2010, 08:16:00 AM
@xee wow thats impressive. altraz lets see yours! xee what is the ma pull?

Working on it. I have been working 12 hour shifts :'(

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 20, 2010, 09:57:16 PM

Quote from: detrix42 on March 20, 2010, 08:18:02 AM
Hello to everyone. I am very new to the JT circuit. I have built one yesterday and lit up 3 LEDs off one AA battery. wow.

GOOD JOB
Is this not a wonderful circuit?

QuoteI want to work with say 12v, stepped up to 1000+v, which will then be the source to my motor coils.

Is this possible?

It is possible to get 1000 volts from a 1.2v battery so, maybe.
The volts are spikes, however.
They work well with fluorescent bulbs and leds.
I will watch your youtube videos to see if I think your neuman motor can use spikes.
That would be very cool if so, because you could use a AA or 2 of them instead of a 12v. But I might be greedy. ;D

So, welcome to this illustrious thread of experimenters. I am glad to see a motor maker here!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Eastov on March 20, 2010, 11:15:53 PM

detrix,

There are videos online with the JT running small motors and filament bulbs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiLcbTBewhw

E

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 21, 2010, 01:12:06 AM

:( The fool proof two transistor circuit I posted turns out to not be so fool proof after all. The TIP31C will overheat if the power supply is able to supply high current. A resistor of a few ohms had to be placed in series with the power supply to prevent overheating. The resistor is not required with the cell phone charger since it will not supply sufficient current to overheat the TIP31C.

A better solution is to only use the 30K resistor to start the circuit. In this case the TIP31C does not overheat.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 21, 2010, 01:43:35 AM

i wonder why the 3055 cans rarely get hot ..

many times i have used them 12vdc car battery .. with out heat ..

even tho i have fryed 1n4007 .. up in smoke the transistor .. ice cold ..

i used 1000v 3 amp and they get burning hot .. while chargeing a boost cap ..

agin 3055 can ice cold .. 270 ohm .. 0 portection 4001 feedback ..

?

W

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: detrix42 on March 21, 2010, 10:55:33 AM

Quote from: jeanna on March 20, 2010, 09:57:16 PM
GOOD JOB
Is this not a wonderful circuit?

It is possible to get 1000 volts from a 1.2v battery so, maybe.
The volts are spikes, however.
They work well with fluorescent bulbs and leds.
I will watch your youtube videos to see if I think your neuman motor can use spikes.
That would be very cool if so, because you could use a AA or 2 of them instead of a 12v. But I might be greedy. ;D

So, welcome to this illustrious thread of experimenters. I am glad to see a motor maker here!

jeanna

Hey, thanks Jeanna. I would accept even say 200 to 300 volts right now. I believe I just need a big enough cap to capture the spikes and deliver a DC voltage to my motor. Now I am trying to remember how to hook up multiple caps. In series, does their voltage capacity increase or parallel?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: detrix42 on March 21, 2010, 10:57:47 AM

Quote from: Eastov on March 20, 2010, 11:15:53 PM
detrix,

There are videos online with the JT running small motors and filament bulbs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiLcbTBewhw

E

thanks for that video link. Now to watch it a few hundred time to understand everything he is doing.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on March 21, 2010, 11:06:53 AM

In this video I wanted to see the best performance I could get out of a 1.3v AA battery.
The Exiter is running right off the AA battery lighting a 15W FL tube while lighting 40 LED'S and charging 10 other AA batteries.
It's using around 25 mA from the rechargable battery.

Here is the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xyg31OSkAIE

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 21, 2010, 12:41:47 PM

Quote from: detrix42 on March 21, 2010, 10:55:33 AM
Hey, thanks Jeanna. I would accept even say 200 to 300 volts right now. I believe I just need a big enough cap to capture the spikes and deliver a DC voltage to my motor. Now I am trying to remember how to hook up multiple caps. In series, does their voltage capacity increase or parallel?

i find i can charge my caps .. with 45vdc rectified as per meter ..

i can easly dubble the voltage in a cap ..

so i have no trouble to fill a cap to 100vdc from a 45 volt feed ..

: )

ist!

nice video slayer007

check out this one ... MAKE COIL? LOL

multi stack .... caped bottom coil or shorted .. : )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lslHtCUSfN4&feature=related

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 21, 2010, 01:45:33 PM

I have been experimenting with a two transistor version of the kazm/slayer007 toroid circuit. After trying many configurations, I think the best fool proof solution is to use a variable resistor. The circuit will always start with the resistor set to 30K and the resistance can then be increased if necessary to prevent the TIP31C from overheating.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on March 21, 2010, 02:07:07 PM

@ detrix42,

You can series connect your capacitors to match the total voltage you are putting across them (check polarities) in this configuration you reduce the capacitance value i.e. 2 x 100uf in series = 50uf. Try and keep the values of each the same including the working voltages. e.g. 200volts... use 2 x 100v capacitors in series. For capacitors connected in parallel the capacitance value adds together, the voltage remains the same.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: detrix42 on March 21, 2010, 04:14:57 PM

Quote from: crowclaw on March 21, 2010, 02:07:07 PM
@ detrix42,

You can series connect your capacitors to match the total voltage you are putting across them (check polarities) in this configuration you reduce the capacitance value i.e. 2 x 100uf in series = 50uf. Try and keep the values of each the same including the working voltages. e.g. 200volts... use 2 x 100v capacitors in series. For capacitors connected in parallel the capacitance value adds together, the voltage remains the same.

cool, my memory is in tact. wow. There are a couple of 330uF/200v caps in a burned out computer power supply that I want to use then. I am trying to look up a transformer that I pulled out of that power supply. I did a google search and found nothing. the numbers on it are -- 6C03313120 MORETEC 99235C. How do I get a pin diagram for it???

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tysb3 on March 21, 2010, 04:57:49 PM

Hi,
How to feedback JT.
This is only idea. Maybe someone have a knowledge how to create driver ? I don't have.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 21, 2010, 06:35:20 PM

Quote from: detrix42 on March 21, 2010, 04:14:57 PM
cool, my memory is in tact. wow. There are a couple of 330uF/200v caps in a burned out computer power supply that I want to use then. I am trying to look up a transformer that I pulled out of that power supply. I did a google search and found nothing. the numbers on it are -- 6C03313120 MORETEC 99235C. How do I get a pin diagram for it???

You'll have to measure the ohmic resistance between the leads, there should be 6 leads, or Five leads and one ground. If there are four leads, then it shouldn't be a problem, you should also ask yourself why the power supply burned out?

Any two leads with an ohmic resistance are a coil, ..6 lead transformers are usually center tapped - this lead can be ignored if you want. Using the two leads with the least ohmic resistance and the two leads with the most ohmic resistance will give you a voltage boost.

for instance, if there are 6 leads where there is ohmic resistance between 1 2 and 3, and the ohmic resistance of 1-2 is 20ohm, and 2-3 is 20 ohms, and 1-3 is 40 ohms, then pin 2 is the center tap. Just as well of the other pins, if there is 40 ohms between 4-5 as well as 5-6, the pin 5 is center tap.

using pins 1 and 2 as the coil to base, and pins 4 and 6 as coil to collector will give you voltage boost because there are more windings on coil 4-5-6 than 1-2-3. This will give you roughly voltage boost V ..while using pins 1 and 3 will give you voltage boost V/2.

IF you follow the diagram that I made for you on your thread, then you won't need a secondary, just a toroid and some mag wire, two capacitors and a resistor and a transistor. You should not use the secondary, it's a waste of time for your particular circuit because it simply will not provide enough current between commutation switches.

In my schematic, the bulk of current will flow through the motor and not the transistor. When skipping commutators, the transistor circuit will activate and produce a higher voltage, until it hits another commutator and discharges across the coil along with the current from the battery.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Eastov on March 21, 2010, 07:15:47 PM

Dextrix,

Here's another filament bulb JT circuit that I've been toying with, but mine a non-wireless version. He's got a link in the description which shows schematics and details.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ODW-ntPHSU

E

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 21, 2010, 07:42:12 PM

@ Eastov
check: crowclaw post on January 22, 2010 Reply 11980

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on March 21, 2010, 07:44:13 PM

deleted by xee2 - forum posting error

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 22, 2010, 12:38:58 AM

i wound a new gold mine 1"

cat5 wire 1 twisted pair 1 untwisted pair so 4 wires total ..

so there 3 sepreate wires to wind the twisted one is the jt the other 2 outputs .. all wound togather ..

3 turns per lap ... so 120 240 360 lap 1 then lap 2 right after and same with lap 3

this is what it looks like

so as the jt pulses it high speed the core does 3 laps ..

i would expect vhf from this coil ..

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: detrix42 on March 22, 2010, 10:25:50 AM

Quote from: Eastov on March 21, 2010, 07:15:47 PM
Dextrix,

Here's another filament bulb JT circuit that I've been toying with, but mine a non-wireless version. He's got a link in the description which shows schematics and details.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ODW-ntPHSU

E

That was pretty cool. Great job.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: detrix42 on March 22, 2010, 10:40:43 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 21, 2010, 06:35:20 PM

You'll have to measure the ohmic resistance between the leads, there should be 6 leads, or Five leads and one ground. If there are four leads, then it shouldn't be a problem, you should also ask yourself why the power supply burned out?

Any two leads with an ohmic resistance are a coil, ..6 lead transformers are usually center tapped - this lead can be ignored if you want. Using the two leads with the least ohmic resistance and the two leads with the most ohmic resistance will give you a voltage boost.

for instance, if there are 6 leads where there is ohmic resistance between 1 2 and 3, and the ohmic resistance of 1-2 is 20ohm, and 2-3 is 20 ohms, and 1-3 is 40 ohms, then pin 2 is the center tap. Just as well of the other pins, if there is 40 ohms between 4-5 as well as 5-6, the pin 5 is center tap.

using pins 1 and 2 as the coil to base, and pins 4 and 6 as coil to collector will give you voltage boost because there are more windings on coil 4-5-6 than 1-2-3. This will give you roughly voltage boost V ..while using pins 1 and 3 will give you voltage boost V/2.

IF you follow the diagram that I made for you on your thread, then you won't need a secondary, just a toroid and some mag wire, two capacitors and a resistor and a transistor. You should not use the secondary, it's a waste of time for your particular circuit because it simply will not provide enough current between commutation switches.

In my schematic, the bulk of current will flow through the motor and not the transistor. When skipping commutators, the transistor circuit will activate and produce a higher voltage, until it hits another commutator and discharges across the coil along with the current from the battery.

I tried measuring the pins, but this transformer is a bit weird. Pictures below:
but I am only getting like .1 to .2 ohms between the pins even between the first and last pin on the 6 pin side.
I am not sure what the big white coated wire is exactly.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 22, 2010, 01:34:33 PM

ok i have been unable to recharge my aa's properly as i cant find the wall charger ..

so that inspired me to do this one .. im almost done it ..

im working on a aa charger .. so far really good .. this is useing the coil showen in my last post ..

it works well btw ... : )

1 2n222a 2 db107's 1 1k pot a lower power aa driveing it ..

i can hear it when it is properly built and tuned out put is low .. i dont tap back side at all on this unit ..

insted i force it out the 2 secondaries .. then to the db107's then into 3 aaa NI-MA 300MAH1.2V rechargable batteryies hooked up to supply 3.6 vdc per bridge

so there 6 aaa rechargables in this unit .. they charge fast .. really fast! i then load the 3.6vdc down to a duracell aa rechargeable 1.2vdc 2650 mah for bout 1 min then i breack the connection i watch my aaa climb back to 3.6vdc ... and i do it agin ...

i need to automate the process ... it will stop and blink at .5 vdc in supply battery ..

as it is configured i would expect ma draw to be low ...

: )

ist!

to automate this im wondering .. if i could find a 5 volt relay and just add another battery so when the bank has enough juice to fire the relay it dumps to the aa and when the bank gets too week to power the relay it breakes the connection .. then repeates ..

someone wanna help on that .. ?

maybe ill just gang the outputs togather as 1 and recharge 12vdc ...aaa bank 2 feeds .. and then i can use the 2 wire electronic pulser to drain the 12vdc bank to the aa

: )

ill have to try it ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 22, 2010, 03:28:23 PM

Quote from: detrix42 on March 21, 2010, 10:57:47 AM
thanks for that video link. Now to watch it a few hundred time to understand everything he is doing.

You may do that , but i can help ...
I also started a tread for it , feel free to ask questions.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8878.0

@all

Hi everyone !

:)

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on March 22, 2010, 04:56:42 PM

Quote from: detrix42 on March 21, 2010, 04:14:57 PM
I am trying to look up a transformer that I pulled out of that power supply. I did a google search and found nothing. the numbers on it are -- 6C03313120 MORETEC 99235C. How do I get a pin diagram for it???

Hi detrix,
Doubtfull if you will get a schematic for your TX. Try this site:http://www.smps.us/computer-power-supply.html .... may help. If you have a multimeter it will help identify the windings, the resistances will be quite low.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on March 22, 2010, 04:56:56 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on March 22, 2010, 01:34:33 PM
ok i have been unable to recharge my aa's properly as i cant find the wall charger ..

IST, Thanks. That's the best line I've heard for a long time.
All the devices you have built and can't find the wall charger to charge your batteries.
Think about it, It's hilarious.

Thanx for the laugh, I really needed that. :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on March 22, 2010, 05:23:16 PM

Quote from: MrMag on March 22, 2010, 04:56:56 PM
IST, Thanks. That's the best line I've heard for a long time.
All the devices you have built and can't find the wall charger to charge your batteries.
Think about it, It's hilarious.

Thanx for the laugh, I really needed that. :)

indeed :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: detrix42 on March 22, 2010, 05:25:46 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 22, 2010, 03:28:23 PM
You may do that , but i can help ...
I also started a tread for it , feel free to ask questions.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8878.0

@all

Hi everyone !

:)

Mark

Hi Mark. I will probably have lots of questions. But I am also reading your thread and that is also answering questions. I want to apply JT circuit or something like your winding idea to my Newman motor I am building. Not sure how yet, but I need to focus on build my third one, so the question will come later. Thanks for sharing your idea(s).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 22, 2010, 06:19:13 PM

Quote from: detrix42 on March 22, 2010, 10:40:43 AM
I tried measuring the pins, but this transformer is a bit weird. Pictures below:
but I am only getting like .1 to .2 ohms between the pins even between the first and last pin on the 6 pin side.
I am not sure what the big white coated wire is exactly.

detrix

That looks like an interesting coil
I am guessing that the white wire is high voltage.........

a fraction of an ohm would be about right for the low voltage side......... some of he coils I have wired as JTs had at least one winding with only 8 turns.

CHeck for continuity between the different connection points.
If you can find 3 pins that all have continuity you probably have a winding with a center tap ...... This can be used as your JT primarys.

I am guessing that the side with 3 pins is the high voltage side........check these for continuity with the white wire.
If you have continuity with one or more of them ........and the resistance is quite a bit higher than the other side........you have a secondary .

If that is high voltage insulation on the white wire ...... and you start with 12 V I am betting you will get over 1000V out.......

Using 12 V I have got 250 V out of a small transformer with no secondary

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 22, 2010, 07:57:16 PM

Quote from: MrMag on March 22, 2010, 04:56:56 PM
IST, Thanks. That's the best line I've heard for a long time.
All the devices you have built and can't find the wall charger to charge your batteries.
Think about it, It's hilarious.

Thanx for the laugh, I really needed that. :)

: )

lol

this little cridder works KICK ASS!

: )

and the charge remains in my rechargeables .. i have recharged bout 5 of em now ... still useing the dead battery to run it ..

i found to just leave it with out pulseing it works well too!

W

i wonder if non rechargeables will work for translators? if they do may be able to get around the super caps to catch the good stuff!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 22, 2010, 09:54:25 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on March 22, 2010, 07:57:16 PM

i wonder if non rechargeables will work for translators? if they do may be able to get around the super caps to catch the good stuff!

IST

the file in the first post on this thread might be related

he calls it a REAC ........ dead batterys being used to condition impulses

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=1868.0

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: detrix42 on March 22, 2010, 10:32:04 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on March 22, 2010, 06:19:13 PM
detrix

That looks like an interesting coil
I am guessing that the white wire is high voltage.........

a fraction of an ohm would be about right for the low voltage side......... some of he coils I have wired as JTs had at least one winding with only 8 turns.

CHeck for continuity between the different connection points.
If you can find 3 pins that all have continuity you probably have a winding with a center tap ...... This can be used as your JT primarys.

All pins on the 6 pin side all have continuity, nothing over 1 ohm. Same for the 2 pins on other side (2 pins, one cut off).

Quote from: resonanceman on March 22, 2010, 06:19:13 PM
I am guessing that the side with 3 pins is the high voltage side........check these for continuity with the white wire.
If you have continuity with one or more of them ........and the resistance is quite a bit higher than the other side........you have a secondary .

If that is high voltage insulation on the white wire ...... and you start with 12 V I am betting you will get over 1000V out.......

Using 12 V I have got 250 V out of a small transformer with no secondary
gary

The White wire is connected to the 6 pin side. Still nothing over 1 ohm. I mean the white wire has continuity with all 6 pins, all read .3 ohms, but gradually dropped to .1 ohms. I will just have to have some fun with it. I will start by using the 2 pin side as input, and see what I get out of the 6 pin side.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Eastov on March 22, 2010, 11:00:03 PM

I have a similar coil, and the thick top wire on mine is actually a ground wire, that is wrapped around all of the inner coils, an outer emf shield of sorts. Well that's what mine is doing.
e

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 23, 2010, 12:04:21 AM

a while ago i have been able to recharge dead batteries from the TESLA KICK METHOD!

SIMPLY AN INTRUPTION IN THE FLOW ..

you can then tune it better .. but its still caused from stoping the flow

well the thing is still running on the same battery i recharged 6 rechargeables from it ..

all were .8 - .9vdc in the rechargeables .. all now are 1.3 - 1.1 vdc after a few hours of sitting round ..

i took a few pictures im going to mount it now ..

then i will build another useing DEAD 9VDC BATTERIES AS TRANSLATORS ..

this unit works well tho

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on March 23, 2010, 05:36:59 PM

I was inspired by Dr Stiffler's last video.
I wanted to see if I could get my circuit to self run also.

I'm using a old PNP transistor a R 591-7419.
I have the polarity for the circuit reversed and I also have the emitter and collector connected backwards.
Running it backwards it will draw as low as 30 uA while it's running.
This way the fields very weak but it still has enought power to run and charge it's self.
When I first started the circuit it only had 116.4 mV in the capacitor but it's slowly charging it's self.

At the end of the video I switch the transistor back around and the led will dimly lit off 136 mV.

Here is the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usjQ89KmVaA

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 23, 2010, 07:14:46 PM

the little charger is STILL GOING...

my my my

the battery voltage finally droped below .5 volts and its still chugging along

i now wonder if because my 2n2222a is backward .. if it causes it to run on a lower voltage as it is not pulseing yet ..

and my voltage is .490

however it ran well over 24 hours from a mostly dead battery ..

W

i just plugged a cap on the 2 feeds .. it was a large value one .. 6800uf 35 volts ..

it fils it fast !

so i tryed an aa .. well booster speed we will say ..

: )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on March 24, 2010, 06:35:13 AM

@ innovation_station

Hi from freepow. do u have a schematic or diagram of your charger ??????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 24, 2010, 06:37:51 AM

Quote from: freepow on March 24, 2010, 06:35:13 AM
@ innovation_station

Hi from freepow. do u have a schematic or diagram of your charger ??????

You will learn faster , without him ... just ignore ...

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 24, 2010, 10:39:22 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 24, 2010, 06:37:51 AM
You will learn faster , without him ... just ignore ...

Mark

your a LOOSER FAG HOW IS YOUR ASS?

HEY DUM DUM ?

!

TELL ME HOW AND Y MY MOTOR RUNS!

IF YOU EVER START RUNNING FORWARD ... MAYBE YOU GET SOME WHERE

MARK!

how bout we talk about why you think you know so much mark !

how long you had boy friends ... mark ?

oh ya right thats why you know !!! does his wife know ?

: )

continue to cut me down ill burn you down !

little baby!

you apear to be all cry baby like ... DOES MY COIL RUN FAST ? LMFAO!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 24, 2010, 11:10:01 AM

Quote from: freepow on March 24, 2010, 06:35:13 AM
@ innovation_station

Hi from freepow. do u have a schematic or diagram of your charger ??????

now i will answer no i have no drawing ..

however i have made more videos showing HOW it is done than many! ; )

and explained my self many times ... that would be WHY btw ..

IT DOES NOT BOTHER ME IN THE LEIST TO EXPLAIN IT AGIN ..

: )

WHAT I GAVE DOES NOT BOTHER ME ...

does your concinous bother you ....? now tell the truth !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLQrbo_i2Zw&feature=related

i made a video fully explaining this dead aa 24 hour full charger battery recharger .. ..

that apears to FULLY CHARGE A RECHARGABLE .. 2650 MAH DU RA CELL BATTERY ..

it charges verry high value caps fast!

W

i may post this video ... if i dont blame mark!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: forest on March 24, 2010, 11:42:40 AM

RUN FORREST RUN ! LEAVE ELECTRONS BEHIND, YOU WILL CATCH NEW ELECTRONS AT THE END !!! ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: forest on March 24, 2010, 11:44:10 AM

SHIT HAPPENS,POWER HAPPENS.DO NOT BUY SHIT!

ouch ,Im going nuts....psss hiss catch catch..

IST! free ELECTRONS CATCHER !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 24, 2010, 03:19:27 PM

here is my newest unit

it is the entire system on 1 board ..

add a coil and battery holder your done ..

i have 2 caps 25vdc 4700 uf 1 per coil then joined as 1 feed

need a coil ?

: )

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: woopy on March 24, 2010, 06:40:18 PM

Hi Slayer

Back to work

I read some Dr Stiffler threads and came to some ideas

First i did a pancake coil (pix 1) as you suggested 8 turns 0.5 mm copper and 0.35 ohms resistance and 2,5 micro h inductance

it works very well

second i tried to use water as transmitter and it works well it is simple tap water without any electrolite To test it i used my diode bridged led with antenna and took the distance where it lit off, than i put the water container under this distance and plunged the antenna in the water and the led lit up very brightly. (not very clear on the photo but real in my lab)

very interesting anyhow

good luck

regards

Laurent

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on March 24, 2010, 06:58:41 PM

Quote from: woopy on March 24, 2010, 06:40:18 PM
Hi A

Back to work

I read some Dr Stiffler threads and came to some ideas

First i did a pancake coil (pix 1) as you suggested 8 turns 0.5 mm copper and 0.35 ohms resistance and 2,5 micro h inductance

it works very well

second i tried to use water as transmitter and it works well it is simple tap water without any electrolite To test it i used my diode bridged led with antenna and took the distance where it lit off, than i put the water container under this distance and plunged the antenna in the water and the led lit up very brightly. (not very clear on the photo but real in my lab)

very interesting anyhow

good luck

regards

Laurent

Very nice job Woopy.
For your pancake coil you might get even better results with plastic coated solid wire.
For me anyway the plastic coated wire worked a lot better than the mag wire.

Great job and thanks for posting your results.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: woopy on March 24, 2010, 07:04:27 PM

Thanks Slayer

will try it tomorrow

good night

Laurent

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 24, 2010, 09:37:54 PM

here are a few pics i finished the last aa charger ..

the coil is wound the same as the first one

it works great ..

ist!

i also made a video chargeing the caps and battery from .8vdc

this can be called the PRE CYCLE BATTERY CHARGER ... : )

PRE CYCLE B4 YOU RECYCLE ..

: )

now if we can get the stall convertor working on the precycler .. then were all set!

: )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 24, 2010, 11:01:16 PM

@all

I just made one NEW VIDEO , testing my last unit , the secondary are not yet installed on the second and third core , but it show interesting results and blow out of the water the AG theory ...

You ca see lighting a bulb on a core not connected to anything and leds at the same time one the primary...

Also at the end and attempt to show the sparks from the secondary lighting a 6 volt 250 mili bulb , circuit runs on a 1.25 aa battery.

http://www.youtube.com/user/abramrk1#p/a/u/0/myZrCurW0uE

More details http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8878.0

2x 2 volts 60 mili plus 1x 6 volts 250 mili

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 25, 2010, 12:23:42 AM

and for my next stunt!

lol

im going to wind a simple jt 3 turn same as the magic maker basic ..

i have gone a head and wound 26ga pickup all the way around the ring leaveing a small space for the 3 turn coil ..

i will not tap back side i will force it out secondary ...

ill add a few pictures

next i will add the 3 lap 9 turn jt and secondary output wires to the same core so 1 is RUBBING THE ROCK AND THE OTHER IS SPINNING IT !

: )

ist!

btw i built 1 more aa charger the same almost i used 2 twisted pairs bifillar wound 9 turn 3 lap and 1 from each twisted pair become the jt .. so now the generator wires are twisted around the pulseateing jt wires then around the core ..

: )

it worked really good ..

i used 10vdc 3300uf caps 2 of em in that unit .. really fast it flys to 8vdc .. faster than my other 2 but thease caps are a bit smaller .. this is to be used to fill fireing caps at 8-10 vdc .. 1 to 1000uf..

so now for the next stunt after the last stunt ..

lol

2 jt basic x split core 4 secondaries then a 4 way 8 turn 2 lap 4 wire .. ontop the secondaries ... : )

maybe tommorow i get to it ...

: )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 25, 2010, 10:21:59 AM

here is a simple unit and a video showing the operation of the PRE CYCLE BATTERY CHARGER!

IT CHARGES AA'S FROM DEAD BATTERIES!

IST!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcPRHMJf5tQ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Eastov on March 25, 2010, 10:33:34 AM

ist,
Dead batteries, BEMF, and spikes; is
there some way to measure for overunity?
e

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 25, 2010, 10:49:05 AM

Quote from: Eastov on March 25, 2010, 10:33:34 AM
ist,
Dead batteries, BEMF, and spikes; is
there some way to measure for overunity?
e

i think the easyest way to acheive ou is to use a unit such as i have just built .. as a power source for a pulsed application like newman or bedini or any other motor unit .. recover from the SECOND STAGE UNIT ..

but you can also go LOW VALUE CAP as output and BANG A SINGLE COIL WITH A FET .. AND FREQ GENNY ..

THEN LITE A 7 - 60W FILIMENT ..

xee#2 has practice ...

: )

W

i also know if you go dubble banger on the drive coil .. it flys in speed .. so then you have no trouble to fill caps .. 100 times the speed ..

i know slayer007 has done this quite some time ago .. wether he filled caps or not im not sure ...

and if you need undeniable PROOF MY WORK IS REAL TRUE AND GIVEN FREE OF CHARGE ..

ALL IS ONLY AVABIL ON overunity.com ..

now charge a large value cap to 30vdc use a pwm add MY NEO ZAP AND BE CAREFULL!

THAT IS YOUR WARNING !

: )

W

now throw a cupple pancakes togather in 1 ring a standard pancake and a torous high freq.. : )

smak it with the neo zap plasma flash ... it lites a 60 watt good n bright .. this is the supply ...

for a TPU!

AC HAS ATAINED GOOD RESULTS FROM 24VDC 1 AMP ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvleOLh42uw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGT5PB733a0&NR=1
lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0etbntkxbs
: )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Eastov on March 25, 2010, 12:37:56 PM

deleted, post error

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 25, 2010, 01:55:54 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on March 24, 2010, 03:19:27 PM
here is my newest unit

it is the entire system on 1 board ..

add a coil and battery holder your done ..

i have 2 caps 25vdc 4700 uf 1 per coil then joined as 1 feed

need a coil ?

: )

ist!

IST

I was planning on throwing together another battery charger in the next day or 2.

I have a couple questions about yours

I see 3 chips on your board........I am guessing they are the JT transistor and 2 fast diodes.
Am I right about this?

2 diodes would give an output that pulses more than a bridge.

On your coil what kind of ratio do you have between the primarys and secondary?
It is my observation that most people on this thread use as few wraps as possible for the primary.
I have started making coils with larger primarys .......the theory is, start with the biggest kick you can .......

The last coil I made I wrapped 3 cat5 pairs as a single wire
I did 12 wraps.
I wrapped around in one direction
( 1 lap )
I see that you often wrap it in several laps.
Is there an performance advantage to wrapping in a number of laps?
WIth the same wire 4 wraps 3 laps would not be any harder to do

( I connected 2 of the pairs in series for my primary )
USing 12 V input I got over 250 V from the 3rd winding
Swithing the coil around I go 380 V using the single winding as primary .......more voltage.......but I am thinking less kick ....... couldn't quite light a CFL

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: forest on March 25, 2010, 02:00:47 PM

Hello

Quick question : have you already found a charger which recharges its own power supply battery ?
Just asking :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 25, 2010, 02:31:44 PM

the chip things are the bridges yes you get higher volts with diodes as i have seen anyhow .

any ring can feed back .. many ways too

the base tap point is a great place to tap then feed the recharge through with the next pulse ..

draw goes way down on supply as i have seen .. you could also charge a secondary super cap and then diode it back to the rechargeable driveing battery .. maybe even do both ..

i find that the more laps the higher the freq ..

and many many more spikes on my scope ..

: )

ist

the laps that follow the first apear to kick the first in the ass!

lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 25, 2010, 02:41:29 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on March 25, 2010, 02:31:44 PM

the base tap point is a great place to tap then feed the recharge through with the next pulse ..

IST

I have no idea what a base tap point is

Quote
i find that the more laps the higher the freq ..

and many many more spikes on my scope ..

: )

ist

the laps that follow the first apear to kick the first in the ass!

lol

Thanks

That makes sense

I still don't have a scope ....but it seems to me the more toroids I add to my candy cane coils the stronger the spikes are.........more toroids don't seem to raise the voltage much at all.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 25, 2010, 04:28:01 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on March 24, 2010, 10:39:22 AM
your a LOOSER FAG HOW IS YOUR ASS?

HEY DUM DUM ?

!

TELL ME HOW AND Y MY MOTOR RUNS!

IF YOU EVER START RUNNING FORWARD ... MAYBE YOU GET SOME WHERE

MARK!

how bout we talk about why you think you know so much mark !

how long you had boy friends ... mark ?

oh ya right thats why you know !!! does his wife know ?

: )

continue to cut me down ill burn you down !

little baby!

you apear to be all cry baby like ... DOES MY COIL RUN FAST ? LMFAO!

Ist , is a Moron and a jerk , if you like wasting your time go for it.

How can anyone have anything to share , and such a bad attitude.

how this guy is still on this site is beyond me...

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: woopy on March 25, 2010, 05:47:36 PM

Hi Slayer and all

I made the test with a plastic wire pancake coil 10 turns on a plastic ring

First result was not good at all than i flip the coil and than i got very good result that is to say that the coil winding direction is important. The main coil must have a different winding direction as the second one.

Than something happens by accident i let the free wire of the main coil touch the wooden working table and when this main coil get in resonance (and only at this point that is to say when the power goes every where around the main coil and light every thing with antenna in its attainable range) i have notice that A VERY SMALL VIOLET ARC ( See pix 1) is present at the end of the wire. As soon as i touch the wire this arc stops and i have to reamorce the resonnance . And when i approach this very small violet light a strong ionesed smelling is clear to my nose. tried to put different floor under the wire to test different arcing but noway untill now it only works on my painted wooden table ?
I do think that this arc is PLASMA, what do you think ?

Than i made a new test by reinstalling my other pancake coil on the main coil but this time as a pickup coil very powerfull indeed i can light very brithfully a led with AV config and get a scope shot on the other wire see pix

This thread is very interesting but my question is it always a JT ? or are we going in something else? What do think Pirate Jeanna Mk1 Guyla and others contributors ?

Good night and a lot of fun to all

rergards

Laurent

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 25, 2010, 06:34:44 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 25, 2010, 04:28:01 PM
Ist , is a Moron and a jerk , if you like wasting your time go for it.

How can anyone have anything to share , and such a bad attitude.

how this guy is still on this site is beyond me...

Mark

why are you here ?

mark ? to look for answers .. for what reason you trying to reinvent ma wheel ... lol
what gives you the right to try to jade the reserch?

dick head .. this was my work not yours never was guy ..

so you think good and hard ... !

because clearly you missed the entire case and point !

fool!

W

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 25, 2010, 06:59:39 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on March 25, 2010, 06:34:44 PM
why are you here ?

mark ? to look for answers .. for what reason you trying to reinvent ma wheel ... lol
what gives you the right to try to jade the research?

dick head .. this was my work not yours never was guy ..

so you think good and hard ... !

because clearly you missed the entire case and point !

fool!

W

Ok Moron even if you are the reincarnation Of TESLA , you did not invent the kick ...

You are a dumb ass and have no clue , the kick is all about physics , even Tesla could not have invented it , and guess what he did not even discovered it .

Stop clamming anything since you can't show anything you made that works that was not stolen from someone else .

I think it is sad no one loves you enough to get you the help you need ... :'(

We have enough evidence that you know shit !

All the video you made are a tribute to it .

Stop living a lie . Your wife left you for your brother and took the kids , all of that because of your obsession with this site .

Wake up !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 25, 2010, 07:19:11 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 25, 2010, 06:59:39 PM

Ok Moron even if you are the reincarnation Of TESLA , you did not invent the kick ...

You are a dumb ass and have no clue , the kick is all about physics , even Tesla could not have invented it , and guess what he did not even discovered it .

Stop clamming anything since you can't show anything you made that works that was not stolen from someone else .

I think it is sad no one loves you enough to get you the help you need ... :'(

We have enough evidence that you know shit !

All the video you made are a tribute to it .

Stop living a lie . Your wife left you for your brother and took the kids , all of that because of your obsession with this site .

Wake up !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

burnt ! you shall be !

call it a sun burn!

my princess will not kiss a frog !a frog will remain a frog for ever !

enjoy..

: )

im where i was suspoto be ..... where are you ?

and even if i were tesla in a past life .... im me in this one ... and now go study ra's capabilities ..

lol

your still a looser eddy !

W

so why does your coil work eddy? lol come on lets here you echo my words ...

try and steal the little i have left ... why did you come here mark ? why did YOU HAVE TO LEARN ENGLISH MARK ?

looser ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on March 25, 2010, 07:32:41 PM

Quote from: woopy on March 25, 2010, 05:47:36 PM
Hi A and all

I made the test with a plastic wire pancake coil 10 turns on a plastic ring

First result was not good at all than i flip the coil and than i got very good result that is to say that the coil winding direction is important. The main coil must have a different winding direction as the second one.

Than something happens by accident i let the free wire of the main coil touch the wooden working table and when this main coil get in resonance (and only at this point that is to say when the power goes every where around the main coil and light every thing with antenna in its attainable range) i have notice that A VERY SMALL VIOLET ARC ( See pix 1) is present at the end of the wire. As soon as i touch the wire this arc stops and i have to reamorce the resonnance . And when i approach this very small violet light a strong ionesed smelling is clear to my nose. tried to put different floor under the wire to test different arcing but noway untill now it only works on my painted wooden table ?
I do think that this arc is PLASMA, what do you think ?

Than i made a new test by reinstalling my other pancake coil on the main coil but this time as a pickup coil very powerfull indeed i can light very brithfully a led with AV config and get a scope shot on the other wire see pix

This thread is very interesting but my question is it always a JT ? or are we going in something else? What do think Pirate Jeanna Mk1 Guyla and others contributors ?

Good night and a lot of fun to all

rergards

Laurent

Now your getting somewhere very nice.
Yes the L1 coil and the L2 coil have to be wound in differant directions.
If you try it and it doesn't work just reverse polarity as you have done.

The pancake coil will make a big difference in power output and current draw.

Now you need to make another tower for your receiver tower.
Or try some water experiments.

I thought about making a new thread for this.
This acts more like Dr Stiffler's SEC than a JT.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 25, 2010, 08:20:44 PM

Quote from: slayer007 on March 25, 2010, 07:32:41 PM

Now your getting somewhere very nice.
Yes the L1 coil and the L2 coil have to be wound in differant directions.
If you try it and it doesn't work just reverse polarity as you have done.

The pancake coil will make a big difference in power output and current draw.

Now you need to make another tower for your receiver tower.
Or try some water experiments.

I thought about making a new thread for this.
This acts more like Dr Stiffler's SEC than a JT.

it probally would as i didnt see a jt in your unit ..

a joule theif is simply a make and break in a loop ....

lol

hummmmm

lol

were not plying with 16 " towers .. were playing a ferroite core vibrator .. and a darn pancake coil ..

simple the pancake is air core ... the jt is not .. but it could be in made in such a way

ist!

i built a super simple mod for a fugi cam board wich IS A JT ...

thank you

it is 6 wires .. 2 output 2 input 1 switch ..

THIS MOD WILL WORK ON ALL CAM BOARDS REGRDLESS OF THERE MAKER !

: )

im modding 9 of them and putting them togather in a ring unit ..

the job of the ring unit is to charge 3 caps ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 25, 2010, 08:44:20 PM

here is 1 more for ya mark ...

: p

lol

take a jt give it 4 secondaries ... give 2 high voltage caps .. give 2 low voltage high uf .. caps lmfao !

: )

combine through bridge then to output ...

as 1

W

and if that is not enough mark i have a quick light mod comeing up verry soon it involves any cam board and my 6 wire mod a light base holder and a 120vac loa bulb 60 leds ...

: )

i could probally lite a few of those bulbs .. full bright from 1 modded unit ..

as i was able to run 1 at 308vdc and still over fill the cap ... : )

what have we learned about history ....

right .. it only repetes ... ok fine

how did the TESLA RADIO STORY GO LAST TIME ... ; )

mark on the roni ... agin .... macaroni lol

same old story ..

M IS FOR MARK FOR TRYING TO PUT M&M'S IN ALPHIBITICAL ORDOR ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CqzASCwUq8

will the real slim shady ! please stand up !

cuz theres a million of me who walk talk and act like me . it might just be the next best thing but NOT QUITE ME .... : )

will the real slim shady please stand up !

~W~

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 25, 2010, 10:53:24 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 25, 2010, 06:59:39 PM

Ok Moron even if you are the reincarnation Of TESLA , you did not invent the kick ...

You are a dumb ass and have no clue , the kick is all about physics , even Tesla could not have invented it , and guess what he did not even discovered it .

Stop clamming anything since you can't show anything you made that works that was not stolen from someone else .

I think it is sad no one loves you enough to get you the help you need ... :'(

We have enough evidence that you know shit !

All the video you made are a tribute to it .

Stop living a lie . Your wife left you for your brother and took the kids , all of that because of your obsession with this site .

Wake up !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

right dickhead! TESLA RE DISCOVERED RA'S KICK !

MY DAMM KICK ...

AND ILL KICK YOUR ASS ... AFTER I YANK IT RIGHT OUT YOUR HANDS ...

DONT PISS ME OFF ILL BEAT YOU WITH YOUR OWN STICK !

H

ps willy .... thought you would like that one .. just some more classic ist!

: ) a little RBJ ALL IN 1 lol rickey bubbles julian

how long will a dead aa blink Ã‰ : ) lol

might make a GOOD CAP TOPER UPER PULSER UNIT .... : )

IN ORDOR TO DO THAT i think you need a switch from the battery and in my mod where i connect the switch to turn it off and on it becomes your trigger so basically we need a small transistor soldered across the cam board .. and the base triggered from a dead battery bliniking jt ! you could put a cap and probally change the amount of time the flash ran for ...

: )

and mark i GOT 1 FINGER ON EACH HAND UP FOR YOU!

lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 26, 2010, 12:47:09 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on March 25, 2010, 10:53:24 PM
right dickhead! TESLA RE DISCOVERED RA'S KICK !

MY DAMM KICK ...

AND ILL KICK YOUR ASS ... AFTER I YANK IT RIGHT OUT YOUR HANDS ...

DONT PISS ME OFF ILL BEAT YOU WITH YOUR OWN STICK !

H

ps willy .... thought you would like that one .. just some more classic ist!

: ) a little RBJ ALL IN 1 lol rickey bubbles julian

how long will a dead aa blink Ã‰ : ) lol

might make a GOOD CAP TOPER UPER PULSER UNIT .... : )

IN ORDOR TO DO THAT i think you need a switch from the battery and in my mod where i connect the switch to turn it off and on it becomes your trigger so basically we need a small transistor soldered across the cam board .. and the base triggered from a dead battery bliniking jt ! you could put a cap and probally change the amount of time the flash ran for ...

: )

and mark i GOT 1 FINGER ON EACH HAND UP FOR YOU!

lol

Yes you are number one !

So you figured that the kick is not invented by anyone but a reaction to the sun ...

The astral Sun lives in Ontario it must be some redneck trailer park deal , no really at 36 still living wit your MOM .

Come on , you can't make that stuff up , you are not of this earth :o

Find a new hobby , you are bad at this one , thousands of man hour in free energy is lost you are a sculptor at best , try art gallery for your crap.

Losing your time is one thing but making others , that is really not helpful .

No Country in the world will grant you any patent in this dimension or others .

You mean well , but do the opposite every time you ever wright stuff .

You don't think you know everything you do .

Yet no one cares , no one ever got any help form watching you or reading any of your stuff .

But really we are just humans , sorry MR GOD , you really are number one 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 26, 2010, 01:16:27 AM

you get 814 FAIL TOO ...

SO SAD ..

GOT AIDS YET ?

here is a pic for dum dum

connect the wires and add a switch ..

W

ist cam board modded 60 led loa bulb 1 aa

the LOA IS UNMODDED RIGHT OUT OF THE PACK ! SO YOU CAN STILL USE THEM AS YOU NORMALLY WOULD ..

: P

next thing im gonna hear from your lieing ass is you figured out my cam flash mod board fully explained it public built it shared it and called it yours ... lol

come on now ...

i have all my shit covered i did it backward dumb dumb

!!!!!!

hey mark can i call you lil britt! lol lol

but slim what if you win ? .... wouldnt it be weird ? why so you guys can just lie to get me here and sit me next to lil britt spears!

: )

dont even ask bout weird AL that bird flew the coop ! ... 1 flew over the coco's nest !

lmfao big time !

were just plain and simple guys liveing in an omish pairadice....
i churned butter once or twice ... WORKING WITH SOME OU PAIRICITES!

after the story of eddy is done im gonna tell you all the tale of the cow that jumped over the moon !

sumething bout my silver spoon !

: )

oooooo the FUN !

little boy blue and the SUN .....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on March 26, 2010, 01:52:45 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on March 25, 2010, 08:44:20 PM
i could probally lite a few of those bulbs .. full bright from 1 modded unit ..

you didn't even show one bulb being lit much less a few bulbs. you are putting the cart before the horse.

all you have demonstrated is a bunch of components on a board and a bulb that is not lit... whoopty doo ::)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 26, 2010, 01:59:24 AM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on March 26, 2010, 01:52:45 AM
you didn't even show one bulb being lit much less a few bulbs. you are putting the cart before the horse.

all you have demonstrated is a bunch of components on a board and a bulb that is not lit... whoopty doo ::)

IS THAT SO ...

: )

review some of my videos ...

: )

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on March 26, 2010, 02:03:35 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on March 26, 2010, 01:59:24 AM
IS THAT SO ...

: )

review some of my videos ...

: )

ist!

no thanks, those are just more of the same... no substance, no schematics, no parts list

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 26, 2010, 02:20:58 AM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on March 26, 2010, 02:03:35 AM
no thanks, those are just more of the same... no substance, no schematics, no parts list

just 4 you willy!

: )

1 cam flash board 1 buck @ gold mine ... or FREE ANY 1 HOUR PHOTO...

1 base light socket .. 1 2" peice of 4" big 0 ..
1 switch
6 wires
1 aa
1 aa holder ..

your done

willy !

W

heres a great laugh this video is funny
this is for mark who assumes the stifiler script in this video ...

its priceless! lol

is that bubbly? or is it raining? .... naw dude up stairs just pissed on your fore head

7.00 min in .... lol great for a laugh! : ) hehehehehe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Qx4lC2GK1k

and 1 more for alice!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0JvF9vpqx8

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on March 26, 2010, 08:41:36 AM

[A author=slayer007 link=topic=6123.msg234559#msg234559 date=1269559961]

Now your getting somewhere very nice.
Yes the L1 coil and the L2 coil have to be wound in differant directions.
If you try it and it doesn't work just reverse polarity as you have done.

The pancake coil will make a big difference in power output and current draw.

Now you need to make another tower for your receiver tower.
Or try some water experiments.

I thought about making a new thread for this.
This acts more like Dr Stiffler's SEC than a JT.
[/quote]

I agree with starting a new thread for this slayer! It's tough to get out of this topic with all the compliments and good ideas but you should make a topic out of this. On a side not I was wondering if you have tried making a tower coil with a few pancakes coils on it instead on one? Just wondering!!!

;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on March 26, 2010, 09:02:39 AM

Quote from: stprue on March 26, 2010, 08:41:36 AM
[A author=slayer007 link=topic=6123.msg234559#msg234559 date=1269559961]

Now your getting somewhere very nice.
Yes the L1 coil and the L2 coil have to be wound in differant directions.
If you try it and it doesn't work just A polarity as you have done.

The pancake coil will make a big difference in power output and current draw.

Now you need to make another tower for your receiver tower.
Or try some water experiments.

I thought about making a new thread for this.
This acts more like Dr Stiffler's SEC than a JT.

I agree with starting a new thread for this slayer! It's tough to get out of this topic with all the compliments and good ideas but you should make a topic out of this. On a side not I was wondering if you have tried making a tower coil with a few pancakes coils on it instead on one? Just wondering!!!

;D

Yes, I have tried more than one L2 coil.The results were very poor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on March 26, 2010, 10:16:10 AM

Just wondering, thank you for the quick response!

:)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 26, 2010, 11:02:37 AM

my light as showen ...

lol

with a few simple mods ...... it turns into a VERRY HIGH POWER TPU ..

transformers more than meets THE EYE

RA!

I HAVE SIMPLE DO IT YOURSELF KITS FOR SALE ! : )

BUT THIS TIME YOU WILL DEAL WITH ME DIRRECTLY .. OR NOT AT ALL ...

REGARDS!

im a 1 man band .. but i have 2 most wonderful children .. they are my team !

: )

here is my lite simple as it can be ...

all done works great even runs on a week battery : )

all pictures taken with a week battery and bright daylight !

battery voltage at rest is .. 1.336 vdc non rechargeable 1.5vdc battery ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 26, 2010, 03:26:46 PM

HERES MY FLASH MOD! VIDEO

: )

W

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydwHahAbw2A

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on March 26, 2010, 04:20:44 PM

@all

Well I finally made a vid of what i have been working on, nothing too crazy just very low uA draw......like 1.5uA

Cap charged 1500uf @1.5v=1.688mJ

Test Finished at .611v which is .279991mJ

so 1.688mJ-.279991mJ=1.408009 over 603sec

2.335 uW or uJ

=1.5566uA draw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0z4-9xOFBv8

8)

P.S. Sorry for the camera not picking up the blink but trust me the led is blinking at a consistent rate even though the camera is not able to capture it!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 26, 2010, 05:59:04 PM

stprue:

Nice circuit there. Wow, that is a very low amp draw. Can you adjust your pot to increase the frequency so the led "appears" on? I realize this may/will increase the amp draw but maybe by not all that much. This circuit would run for a year on a 10F cap I believe.

Great job.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 26, 2010, 07:15:37 PM

st bro !

that is a wicket video !

great work .. its wonderfull!

perfect timeing unit ..

: )

W

use another led to fire the fet .. make 3 of em ... and change the flash rate .. 2.5 5 7.5 : )

smack a neo !

: )

i have the power ring almost built : )

9 cam boards 3 caps 20000 those fill as many caps as i want to fire from fets .. : ) or relays or pwm's

were GONNA HETERODYNE YET FROM A JT A CAM BOARD AND A FEW FETS MAYBE A COIL ...

MAYBE NOT ...

: )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on March 26, 2010, 07:17:12 PM

hey folks
i got a stupid question..
do any of you know how long a jt runs when it is pulling 104 ma's..
sorry to bother anyone .. i know i need to learn the math
the battery was from my wii and it had 1.2volts left in it..
so i thought at 104ma it should run down quick..
but 24 hours later it still has 0.79 volts and the led is still full brightness.. it's really to bright
i don't know the mah of this battery it is a cheap eastpower from china

thanks

ps.. stprue very nice video.. you have done alot with that circuit..

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 26, 2010, 07:35:23 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on March 26, 2010, 05:59:04 PM
stprue:

Nice circuit there. Wow, that is a very low amp draw. Can you adjust your pot to increase the frequency so the led "appears" on? I realize this may/will increase the amp draw but maybe by not all that much. This circuit would run for a year on a 10F cap I believe.

Great job.

Bill

Actually, this low an amp draw: the supercap would bleed faster than the circuit.

stprue, can you repost or link to a schematic?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 26, 2010, 07:49:53 PM

Quote from: kooler on March 26, 2010, 07:17:12 PM
hey folks
i got a stupid question..
do any of you know how long a jt runs when it is pulling 104 ma's..
sorry to bother anyone .. i know i need to learn the math
the battery was from my wii and it had 1.2volts left in it..
so i thought at 104ma it should run down quick..
but 24 hours later it still has 0.79 volts and the led is still full brightness.. it's really to bright
i don't know the mah of this battery it is a cheap eastpower from china

thanks

ps.. stprue very nice video.. you have done alot with that circuit..

robbie

This isn't a stupid question. Depending upon the 'state' of the source voltage, a joule thief circuit may in fact use more milliamps when it's close to its death. ..the cut on voltage for the transistor has a lot to do with this, but I've noticed on my models that when there's no load on the device, it uses more current than when there is. So...

Bearing that in mind, it's a good idea to keep a load on ( the secondary ) or off the collector or somewhere in this circuit.

Also, you'll want to keep in mind that batteries have a tendency to regain their charge voltage wise after a sudden discharge, so a joule thief might cut off, then cycle on and off again before it's really 'dead'.

The math is relatively simple, if you have a 2450mAh battery, then you have 2.45 amps or 2450 miliamps at your disposal for one hour. Batteries, again, can be somewhat deceptive, as it may in fact be capable of supplying 3 or 4 amps over the life of a complete slow drain.

Sticking to the basics: using 100mA your circuit will run for 24.5 hours it just a matter of turning mAh into mA.

Depending on your configuration, there will come a voltage point that the transistor will stop turning completely on and the current will simple bleed through to ground via the base-emitter path. This is when the device may consume more milliamps that when it would loaded and the battery will become depleted for the duration of it being connected.

The only way to know is to compare the battery's performance to one which you know the properties of - this would be rather difficult because of the differing properties of manufactured AA cells (or what have you) and the various 'states' the circuit source finds itself in.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 26, 2010, 07:58:34 PM

has anyone ever recharged an aa with a cam board ..

the reason i ask is this i want to use a aa fuji cam board to recharge a rechargeable aa it STILL NEEDS A TRIGGER SYSTEM .....

and the aa is only ment to maintain 1.5 vdc out put there bouts .. this then becomes the feed for 2 caps and i drive the other 2 cap pumps off the first one .. now im down to 3 aa's to power my power ring

and they only need to be pulsed to top up the aa .. or could be run constant ..

i have not tryed a cam board on a aa or any other battery other than a 12vdc gel and it recharged it ...

W

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: detrix42 on March 26, 2010, 08:20:04 PM

Hello folks. I have built my second JTC. Pictures below with schematic.

The third pic is about my question. I want the output of the JTC to go into the transfomer in pic #3. All I know about the transformer is the ohms of the windings. I am not sure how to do this. Can some one supply a schematic or some guidance?

I am very happy with this JTC. The input voltage is only 6.5v, and I am getting 100+v on the output across the capacitor. I am a Newman motor advocate, and want a JTC to supply the voltage to my Newman motor.

For those here I will post a link t my Newman motors. Just in case any here are interested.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6qLiAeyPng
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdw3DAVuLbA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnLqEeO7Af4

I want my JTC to supply power to my large motor. Motor #3

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 26, 2010, 09:12:16 PM

Quote from: detrix42 on March 26, 2010, 08:20:04 PM
Hello folks. I have built my second JTC. Pictures below with schematic.

The third pic is about my question. I want the output of the JTC to go into the transfomer in pic #3. All I know about the transformer is the ohms of the windings. I am not sure how to do this. Can some one supply a schematic or some guidance?

I am very happy with this JTC. The input voltage is only 6.5v, and I am getting 100+v on the output across the capacitor. I am a Newman motor advocate, and want a JTC to supply the voltage to my Newman motor.

For those here I will post a link t my Newman motors. Just in case any here are interested.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6qLiAeyPng
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdw3DAVuLbA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnLqEeO7Af4

I want my JTC to supply power to my large motor. Motor #3

first off nice construction on your motor!

second no problem to run your motor

get a cam board simplest solution.mod as i have done .. you then have yourself an altonator for your 9vdc batteries at 300vdc .. 120uf most are however you can change or ad caps at your lesiure ..

: )

ist !

wonderful construction ..

next sedjuestion is to remove your steel cage from your last video build it of wood or white cutting board plastic ..

: )

peace out !

ist!

did i mention your altonator runs on a aa ... lol i have yet to see a jt put out half of what the cam board can

REMEMBER FREE AT A 1 HOUR PHOTO .. I GIVE THE SUPER SIMPLE MOD AND MADE A VIDEO DOING IT ..

: )

remember its all about bang for the buck ! ; ) and it didnt cost you 1 buck ! : )

PRETTY DAMM GOOD BANG THEN EH?

i just built my second lite works ok .. im makeing the construction video of the light

and the modded cam board drives it ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 26, 2010, 09:31:32 PM

Quote from: detrix42 on March 26, 2010, 08:20:04 PM
.... I want the output of the JTC to go into the transfomer in pic #3.

I am very happy with this JTC. The input voltage is only 6.5v, and I am getting 100+v on the output across the capacitor.
I want my JTC to supply power to my large motor. Motor #3

What happens?
Nothing?

You do understand that the joule thief is giving you pulses, don't you?
Pulsed volts are very different from battery volts.
If your motor requires 340 dc volts, you will need something like kooler's, but much much larger.
How many amp hours are in those batteries? and how long does it take to run them down?

Really a brush motor is a heavy amps user isn't it?
There are virtually no amps to be available from a joule thief.
What am I missing?

BTW, the coils are beautiful. You must have a lot of patience...(or chocolate ;) )

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 26, 2010, 09:35:30 PM

Hi everybody,
Maybe some of you will remember my dream last summer to have a pot of soil with an earth battery powering a jtc... as a garden light?

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8540.msg234778#new (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8540.msg234778#new)
It is still inside, but this is happening!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 26, 2010, 09:42:45 PM

Quote from: jeanna on March 26, 2010, 09:31:32 PM
What happens?
Nothing?

You do understand that the joule thief is giving you pulses, don't you?
Pulsed volts are very different from battery volts.
If your motor requires 340 dc volts, you will need something like kooler's, but much much larger.
How many amp hours are in those batteries? and how long does it take to run them down?

Really a brush motor is a heavy amps user isn't it?
There are virtually no amps to be available from a joule thief.
What am I missing?

BTW, the coils are beautiful. You must have a lot of patience...(or chocolate ;) )

thank you,

jeanna

and what happins when your intrupt the flow with some amps behind it .....

CARE TO TALK OF MY WORK ?

W

how about A HOLE BUNCH OF AMPS IN THE FLASH OF A SPARK !

OR WAS IT A FRACTION OF A NANO SECOND ?????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 26, 2010, 09:49:29 PM

oooo lookie ....

i built a plasma magnetic quenched spark gap ...

its less than .5 inch ....

oooo its soooooo cute!

W

btw ...... thats a H with a I in the center !

hummmmmmm think the plasma radiates electricty ... why does a neon lite ... : )

i bet a sewing machine bobbon fits on the gap .. and i bet a lot of fine wire also fits the spool

lol

the lil bucker is only half inch ... lmfao plasma too

OMG !

LIKE I SAID 1 FINGER ON EACH HAND UP ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: detrix42 on March 26, 2010, 10:03:45 PM

Quote from: jeanna on March 26, 2010, 09:31:32 PM
What happens?
Nothing?

when I hook up the other transformer, all I get is the input voltage, but I am not to sure if I have the second transformer hooked up right.

Quote from: jeanna on March 26, 2010, 09:31:32 PM
You do understand that the joule thief is giving you pulses, don't you?
Pulsed volts are very different from battery volts.
If your motor requires 340 dc volts, you will need something like kooler's, but much much larger.
How many amp hours are in those batteries? and how long does it take to run them down?

Yes I do understand that the joule thief is pulsing/osculating, and as far as I know I need that osculation to go into the other transformer to step the output of the joule thief. Going from 6.5v to 100v is awesome. The theory of a Newman motor is to uses as little current draw as possible. Right now the coils resistance is up to 1155 ohms. As I add more wire, the resistance goes up and the current draw goes down. According to Newman, all I need is the voltage, which is why I eventually I want 1000v with just milli-amps of current. (micro-amps if I can get it that low).

Quote from: jeanna on March 26, 2010, 09:31:32 PM
Really a brush motor is a heavy amps user isn't it?
There are virtually no amps to be available from a joule thief.
What am I missing?

At the moment, yes it draws a lot of current. I did a crazy test. I uses a 330uF cap, and using my JTC I charged the cap to 100v. then took the cap to my motor, and applied the cap as the source. The motor moved just a little bit. 330uF * 1155ohms = .38115 seconds to discharge the cap. Again, once I add a lot more wire, and get resistance up, the discharge time will increase, and once the motor gets going I will only need a fraction of a second to keep it going. I am very happy that the motor move a tiny bit. Very happy. things are on track. Now to get that other transformer to work.

I also plan on getting a automobile's ignition coil as my JTC coil. Or one of those disposable camera transformers.

Quote from: jeanna on March 26, 2010, 09:31:32 PM
BTW, the coils are beautiful. You must have a lot of patience...(or chocolate ;) )

thank you,

jeanna

And thank you so very much for the kind words. I am impressed with seeing the LED in your plants pot. Great job.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 26, 2010, 10:28:13 PM

@detrix42

How many volts do you want and at what frequency?

My highest voltage was (unmeasured but estimated at) ~2000 volts and about 1.2Khz frequency.
There aren't any more of those toroids around but you can get one that would give you ~900v-1100v.
Would that be enough?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 26, 2010, 10:48:06 PM

a mot primary and a yoke and 5vdc pulsed by hand yeilds over 2000v

as per my tests long time b4 the jt

regards!

W

i built it from JUNK

LOL WHAT HAVE YOU DONE ? i built it with out a transistor what have you done ? i built it with a single wire what have you done ?

just incase you for got i built a pulse motor with 1 single wire 1 reed switch and 1 aa battery that it wobble tuned

good god

what have you done ?

thats 3 freqs from 1 single in 1 wire .. and then i made the damm thing self run

AGIN I ASK WHAT HAVE YOU DONE ...

and GUESS WHAT .... : ) MY GIVE A DAMM IS BUSTED!

: ) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgW0ZIRzrkY

i want to feel something .. let me digg a little deeper... naw still nothing ....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: detrix42 on March 26, 2010, 10:49:16 PM

Quote from: jeanna on March 26, 2010, 10:28:13 PM
@detrix42

How many volts do you want and at what frequency?

My highest voltage was (unmeasured but estimated at) ~2000 volts and about 1.2Khz frequency.
There aren't any more of those toroids around but you can get one that would give you ~900v-1100v.
Would that be enough?

jeanna

I do need it to be DC power into the motor. With a large enough cap, perhaps a supercap, I can capture the pulses from the JTC. A drawback to the larger caps is the longer charge time.

Ok, I just made a change to my JTC, and the cap charged a bit faster. cooooool. ;) I changed my 1k resistor to a 10k. and I now have a 14v input (2 used 9v batteries). Its a 200v cap. hmmm. And the cap charged to 114v. cooool. Getting there.

show me what you did please. pretty please.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on March 26, 2010, 11:08:58 PM

@detrix

If you change your motor to run on high frequency it may be easier than making a jule thief which produces real highfrequency from low current. A high frequency motor is what they use on aircraft because they are smaller faster lighter and pack a bigger punch per pound. They operate at about 40ohz. A pulse motor can operate at thousands of hzs. The steel core is what holds you back. Some day not too far in the future there will be ceramic motors of 100s of horsepower that way 30pounds. The magnetic bearing and hightech ceramics is making this doable. The pulse motor links usually to a flywheel that changes the hf pulses to a more usable form of power.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 26, 2010, 11:10:29 PM

Well, what I did has no real bearing here. It is all pulsed, not steady dc.

I made hundreds of posts.
The easiest way to show what "I" did is to watch the lidmotor videos he called jeanna's light.

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=Lidmotor#p/u/37/KAakZTR_4LE (http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=Lidmotor#p/u/37/KAakZTR_4LE)
That is the first.
He made a correction in the second so it is good to watch both.

Then I made a replication of his...
http://www.youtube.com/user/jeannacav#p/a/u/6/dTyprZxxza0 (http://www.youtube.com/user/jeannacav#p/a/u/6/dTyprZxxza0)

That is a good start.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 26, 2010, 11:28:04 PM

Quote from: sparks on March 26, 2010, 11:08:58 PM
@detrix

If you change your motor to run on high frequency it may be easier than making a jule thief which produces real highfrequency from low current. A high frequency motor is what they use on aircraft because they are smaller faster lighter and pack a bigger punch per pound. They operate at about 40ohz. A pulse motor can operate at thousands of hzs. The steel core is what holds you back. Some day not too far in the future there will be ceramic motors of 100s of horsepower that way 30pounds. The magnetic bearing and hightech ceramics is making this doable. The pulse motor links usually to a flywheel that changes the hf pulses to a more usable form of power.

sparks i agree and diss agree!

ill leave it there .. : ) kool! lol

J you should try your coil on a ferroite transformer core ....

there every where ..

and your work does apply ... lol add a bridge .. a high freq one if you have a high freq coil .. i call high freq mhz at leist !

i have many mhz coils .. next cap the damm thing .. now its dc .. the funny thing is

in the cam boards look how and where the diode is placed .. they put out pure dc .... ; )

how can i say this .. when my lite winds down .. as in the cap draing my leds are not pulsed .. the device is turned off my leds lite 5 plus min... after being switched off ..

clearly it is not pulsed ac dc or other output ...

as it is shut off !

w

the cam board is resonant transformer on on cycle and free electron snatcher on off cycle ... lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 26, 2010, 11:54:05 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on March 26, 2010, 11:28:04 PM

and your work does apply ... lol add a bridge .. a high freq one if you have a high freq coil .. i call high freq mhz at leist !

i have many mhz coils .. next cap the damm thing .. now its dc .. the funny thing is

in the cam boards look how and where the diode is placed .. they put out pure dc .... ; )

OK,
I see.

But the trouble is the time.
If the motor cannot be made to work at high frequency of pulses even from a cap it isn't going to work, but I am way over my head on this.
I have not made a newman motor and right now I am waiting for a kit so I can put together a reed switch motor.
Maybe in another year I can add something to this that is useful.
Maybe. anyway...

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 27, 2010, 12:07:00 AM

just to note, i've gotten a couple of axial lead inductors used as the 'transformer'; they become inductively coupled and run very efficiently ..producing around 45 volts, oscillating at about 5Mhz.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 27, 2010, 12:17:13 AM

if you want useable free high voltage that can do useable work ...

i found this to be the simplest solution ..

2 time for 100 times now ...

this means verry high speed spike generator aka jt ... and a a holding cell / translating device caps are best suited for this .. however batteries work aswell ..

now draw from storage in a slower time frame be it 1 hz or 100 000 hz ... it dont matter SHIT... if your generator is 10 mhz ... does it ? and if your holding / pressure tank is large enough you can grab as much as you wish per dump ...

no it dont ...

SIMPLY ALLOW BUFFER TIME WHEN FIRST ENERGIZED .... then engage phase 2 .. ie newman bedini ... etc!

: )

W

in a car with a STANDARD TRANSMITION .. we call it a clutch ... and we engage it and dissengage it for shifting gears starting and stopping ...

: )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 27, 2010, 12:26:21 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 27, 2010, 12:07:00 AM
just to note, i've gotten a couple of axial lead inductors used as the 'transformer'; they become inductively coupled and run very efficiently ..producing around 45 volts, oscillating at about 5Mhz.

do you own a camera?

: )

you have made great coments in the past few pages ...

time for you to make a video !

: )

now just imagine .... i made my 1.5vdc pulse motor run from a cam board holding tank and a banger cap at 350vdc 200uf ...

i'd probally blow the damm magnets right off the plastic wheel ...

what do you think ?

: )

still runs on a aa ... : )

but i increased my input ... like 50 times .. nevermind amps .. as per cap value ..

here is a simple fun test ... for everyone to try ... discharge a cap of 200uf at 1.5 vdc ... ok fine no big deal ...

now charge that same cap to 350 volts grab a screw driver you will need it .. DO NOT TOUCH IT .. IT BITES .. SO DO I if you havent noticed! ...

now short IT ... BEHOLD CAVEMAN ... ITS FIRE ! .... OOOOOOO .... AHHHHHHHHH OLLLLAAAAAA LOL

now all ya need is a big cap to hold a lot of the good stuff .. and dump it to your motor ...

crystal clear ?

now that is how the second stage of the cam flash board works ... see...... OK! lol

now basically your motor is the neon that lites ... ok ... notice how when you charge a cam board the neon lites when the cap is full it is the overflow portection .... : )

right ..... so now the darn neon stays litt a damm long time so long i can pull the battery from it put it in another charge it start it blinking and do it agin ... to another .. and the FIRST ONE IS STILL BLINKING ...

o boy....

NOW ... ALL I NEED TO DO IS FLICK THE DAMM THING TO START THE 15 MIN BLINK AGIN ...

same thing ...

now there is still much more to those simple cam flash boards .. bout another hole thred ... lol

but .. ill leave a bit for the kids to do .. : )

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on March 27, 2010, 01:32:48 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 26, 2010, 07:49:53 PM
The math is relatively simple, if you have a 2450mAh battery, then you have 2.45 amps or 2450 miliamps at your disposal for one hour. Batteries, again, can be somewhat deceptive, as it may in fact be capable of supplying 3 or 4 amps over the life of a complete slow drain.

Sticking to the basics: using 100mA your circuit will run for 24.5 hours it just a matter of turning mAh into mA.

thanks jadaro2600
that is what i was thinking.. thank you for your feed back..
so i got bored and i made a video.. and sorry for my cuss words.. i have cuss since i was 5 yrs old its hard to stop..
and drinking is hard to stop also..
i know my knowledge isn't up to date as you guys .. but here is what i got to share..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeAh9D7LkvE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeAh9D7LkvE)

i'll let you guys know when it goes out..
also i have a pulse motor to show you soon .. it impressed me so i hope it will you folks also..

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 27, 2010, 01:46:49 AM

@all

For those that need a camera circuit and can't get one , at gold mine they are 99 cents ...

http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16329

Go fast before Ist buys them all.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 27, 2010, 01:55:33 AM

here is a statement i will make ..

a cam board is a 2 freq time machine .. it is actually 3 freq ... lol the 3rd is the kaboom... inside the tube when you release the stored engery of the cap ... it could be considered a potencial diffrance between 2 or more places ... : )

inside a sealed vaccume ...

where run time is gained

W

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 27, 2010, 01:58:21 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 27, 2010, 01:46:49 AM
@all

For those that need a camera circuit and can't get one , at gold mine they are 99 cents ...

http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16329

Go fast before Ist buys them all.

yea go spend your money fool ..

lol

i get mine free ...

: P

they even come in a free bag from the store that they normally sell the bags ..... aswell i dont even need to check if they have any they will call me when there is a lot of 50 to pick up for free ...

and your still a looser ...

W

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 27, 2010, 02:20:01 AM

have a look at my silver spoon and watch the COW JUMP OVER THE MOON ...

someone after hot water ?

: )

good god its a jt with no coils ... : 0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGT5PB733a0

lookie this one the singing salid bowl ... just need the v 6 salid spinner ... : )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdOJZDWJkuk&feature=related

lol

now the hho bowl and the boiling singing spoon and kaboom

cold fusion ...

what 10 000 bc ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Eastov on March 27, 2010, 02:24:54 AM

1996 Tesla Symposium
Donald L. Smith Self Runner Demo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_ApR2IxBcY

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 27, 2010, 02:27:05 AM

@ist

You really are number one ! The only place you still can get any attention is here , don't you get it people don't come here to see your sh!t . They have to live with it , you got to have figured it out all ready since you are so bright and all :-\.

Why don't you start your own treads since this one is a collective effort and here you only serve your needs not the collective ,the same collective that you are driving down here everyday you will eventually get no attention here , that is if you still do .

I know why you are here , when ever you start a tread you are the only one writing in it and looking at it , Hum what dose that mean Superstar.

You lost everything because of it , steeling money from your investor they will never get the heating system they finance you for , lol they really got to be dummy's .

Yet you still go full charge , that is a sign of a missing bolt ...

Get real get help ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 27, 2010, 02:32:37 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 27, 2010, 02:27:05 AM
@ist

You really are number one ! The only place you still can get any attention is here , don't you get it people don't come here to see your sh!t . They have to live with it , you got to have figured it out all ready since you are so bright and all :-\.

Why don't you start your own treads since this one is a collective effort and here you only serve your needs not the collective ,the same collective that you are driving down here everyday you will eventually get no attention here , that is if you still do .

I know why you are here , when ever you start a tread you are the only one writing in it and looking at it , Hum what dose that mean Superstar.

You lost everything because of it , steeling money from your investor they will never get the heating system they finance you for , lol they really got to be dummy's .

Yet you still go full charge , that is a sign of a missing bolt ...

Get real get help ...

piss off

THIS THRED IS AND WAS STARTED ON MY WORK ..

PEROID

PISS WAD !

your so full of shit ... lol lol

if you could ever get a clue ... but you never do .. ask me how i know ... : )

never mind i wont tell ... : )

go learn something worth learning ...

dont make me drop my dick on your fore head agin ...

for your info stinky pants ... i have no investors and will accept none and i will sue any one that trys to pattend my work ...

ill yank em up .. under oth and have them swear by there soul .. then have them fully explaine there device .. and tell me why it works ...

if they pass .. i dont sue ...

if they fail ... pay check .. thank you ..

can i do this .. sure i can .. for an invention to be your own you must prove beond 1 doubt you are the orgionator of it .. i have disclosed the workings of ALL FREE ENGERY DEVICES ... ELECTRICAL IN NATURE ... there are acceptions .... however NOT MANY .... : )

and many others ... : )

years b4 many ...

: )

try me shit wad !

W

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Eastov on March 27, 2010, 02:58:06 AM

ist,

Does this "quote" ring any bells?

"Spirits incarnate, living as humans in our midst; moving openly and
freely, yet undetected by the masses, or even their hosts. Like the
spasms of a decapitated body, the fact of the matter, thats precisely
what it is; if you really think about it. Their illusions are many, which
overtake the sleepwalking masses. Now know that they do take flesh
and come among men, to mold a new species."

Caught in his own trap (stuck in his own box)?

e

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 27, 2010, 04:58:44 AM

@ist

Really you are one of a kind , you admits steeling idea from others and gaining from them , sorry if you did not build anything that worth mentioning
its because you can't make anything work , that is why you need the cam circuit , at least others made there own from scrap , but yet your scrap remains scrap , you did not even prove you can build a Jt of any relevent signification , and can't out grow the simple premise of it ?

To make this clear you are only here to prevent other from patenting , so my guess you make your money that way .

Great you are not Ra your the devil . :D

Take care Magog ...

Sorry everyone , for those unrelated post , i am only trying to exorcise this tread i worked so hard on , i can't stand to let it die , but so be it ...

Thanks ist you do like talking about your self and you do said the word dick comes quite often ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Eastov on March 27, 2010, 06:20:04 AM

The ultimate camping solar setup!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0yqlF6iopo&feature=grec

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 27, 2010, 09:12:38 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 27, 2010, 04:58:44 AM
@ist

Really you are one of a kind , you admits steeling idea from others and gaining from them , sorry if you did not build anything that worth mentioning
its because you can't make anything work , that is why you need the cam circuit , at least others made there own from scrap , but yet your scrap remains scrap , you did not even prove you can build a Jt of any relevent signification , and can't out grow the simple premise of it ?

To make this clear you are only here to prevent other from patenting , so my guess you make your money that way .

Great you are not Ra your the devil . :D

Take care Magog ...

Sorry everyone , for those unrelated post , i am only trying to exorcise this tread i worked so hard on , i can't stand to let it die , but so be it ...

Thanks ist you do like talking about your self and you do said the word dick comes quite often ..

how many kids you got gay fool ?

think i will allow gay fools in my palace ?

WRONG FAG ..

GO TO YOUR CLOSET AND HANG YOURSELF ... !

your simply tooo stupid to know my work ...

what more can i say ?

i am all i said i am ..

IM RA SHIT HEAD ...

DEAL WITH IT ... !

I HAVE A CRYSTAL BALL I CAN OPERATE JUST FINE .. : )

RA

DAMM RE HE'S ... AND DAMM SHE RA'S ....

SHEESH ... RUNNING DOWN DOWN A DREAM ... THE DEVIL WOULD COME TO ME ... WORKING ON A MISTERY ... GOING WHERE EVER IT LEADS ...
JUST A WEE BIT BACKWARD ...

LOL MAYBE 1 DAY WE GET YOU RUNNING THE RIGHT WAY ... MAYBE 1 DAY ....

ONLY THE DEVIL HIM SELF WOULD HAVE THE SMALL BALLS REQUIRED TO STAND UP TO RA ...

CLEARLY .. YOU FLY YOUR GREY COLOUR HIGH ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1D3a5eDJIs

you then can look at the coils mk1 is makeing AFTER BEING WARNED ! BY PEOPLE YEARS IN ADVANCE OF HIM ... !

HAVE YOU MANAGED TO MELT YOUR BRAIN YET MK1? ...

im starting to think the effects of your coil and your brain waves .. clearly had some entanglement going on ...

!!!

i perfer a core ... could be a rusty nail for all i care ... at least your brain does not become the core ...
that way ...

and maybe you make it a few more days ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 27, 2010, 09:27:49 AM

Quote from: Eastov on March 27, 2010, 02:58:06 AM
ist,

Does this "quote" ring any bells?

"Spirits incarnate, living as humans in our midst; moving openly and
freely, yet undetected by the masses, or even their hosts. Like the
spasms of a decapitated body, the fact of the matter, thats precisely
what it is; if you really think about it. Their illusions are many, which
overtake the sleepwalking masses. Now know that they do take flesh
and come among men, to mold a new species."

Caught in his own trap (stuck in his own box)?

e

indeed i agree !

mk1 is stuck in park ... he can not advance my work .. because he continues to run backward ...

thus canceling any progress he made .. too bad i like the boy ... but .. man it dont work the way you think it does ...

you were born a man mk1 ... why try to be a girl ?

??

why

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on March 27, 2010, 09:41:55 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on March 26, 2010, 05:59:04 PM
stprue:

Nice circuit there. Wow, that is a very low amp draw. Can you adjust your pot to increase the frequency so the led "appears" on? I realize this may/will increase the amp draw but maybe by not all that much. This circuit would run for a year on a 10F cap I believe.

Great job.

Bill

Thanks Bill, and yes you can definitely adjust the POT to increase frequency! I have also put up to 2megs resistance....a slow blink but like you said it would last for a real long time. With a 1500uf charged to 1.5v it will last for 10 minutes with 1.2meg. I think we should all keep this circuit in the back of our minds for when someone makes a circuit that charges itself but real slow...thats when this circuit comes in to use the energy to blink at a rate so efficiently that the charging citcuit can keep up with the draw!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on March 27, 2010, 09:43:44 AM

Quote from: innovation_station on March 26, 2010, 07:15:37 PM
st bro !

that is a wicket video !

great work .. its wonderfull!

perfect timeing unit ..

: )

W

use another led to fire the fet .. make 3 of em ... and change the flash rate .. 2.5 5 7.5 : )

smack a neo !

: )

i have the power ring almost built : )

9 cam boards 3 caps 20000 those fill as many caps as i want to fire from fets .. : ) or relays or pwm's

were GONNA HETERODYNE YET FROM A JT A CAM BOARD AND A FEW FETS MAYBE A COIL ...

MAYBE NOT ...

: )

Thank you for the kind words IST! I'm deffintely not done with this circuit but I am putting it on hold for a while!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on March 27, 2010, 09:47:55 AM

Quote from: kooler on March 26, 2010, 07:17:12 PM
hey folks
i got a stupid question..
do any of you know how long a jt runs when it is pulling 104 ma's..
sorry to bother anyone .. i know i need to learn the math
the battery was from my wii and it had 1.2volts left in it..
so i thought at 104ma it should run down quick..
but 24 hours later it still has 0.79 volts and the led is still full brightness.. it's really to bright
i don't know the mah of this battery it is a cheap eastpower from china

thanks

ps.. stprue very nice video.. you have done alot with that circuit..

robbie

Kooler and all we should be doing math when drawing low ma's I have found that my DMM actually reads 0uA on the circuit I posted but after doing a cap test I found it to be drawing 1.5 or so uA.

Kooler use this

http://www.electronics2000.co.uk/calc/capacitor-charge-calculator.php

then follow my math and if you need help just ask ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on March 27, 2010, 09:52:02 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 26, 2010, 07:35:23 PM
Actually, this low an amp draw: the supercap would bleed faster than the circuit.

stprue, can you repost or link to a schematic?

I modified Koolers diagram! Sorry I have no skill or time for the diagram.....I was hoping xee would make one for me hehe

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on March 27, 2010, 09:54:43 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on March 26, 2010, 07:49:53 PM
This isn't a stupid question. Depending upon the 'state' of the source voltage, a joule thief circuit may in fact use more milliamps when it's close to its death. ..the cut on voltage for the transistor has a lot to do with this, but I've noticed on my models that when there's no load on the device, it uses more current than when there is. So...

Bearing that in mind, it's a good idea to keep a load on ( the secondary ) or off the collector or somewhere in this circuit.

Also, you'll want to keep in mind that batteries have a tendency to regain their charge voltage wise after a sudden discharge, so a joule thief might cut off, then cycle on and off again before it's really 'dead'.

The math is relatively simple, if you have a 2450mAh battery, then you have 2.45 amps or 2450 miliamps at your disposal for one hour. Batteries, again, can be somewhat deceptive, as it may in fact be capable of supplying 3 or 4 amps over the life of a complete slow drain.

Sticking to the basics: using 100mA your circuit will run for 24.5 hours it just a matter of turning mAh into mA.

Depending on your configuration, there will come a voltage point that the transistor will stop turning completely on and the current will simple bleed through to ground via the base-emitter path. This is when the device may consume more milliamps that when it would loaded and the battery will become depleted for the duration of it being connected.

The only way to know is to compare the battery's performance to one which you know the properties of - this would be rather difficult because of the differing properties of manufactured AA cells (or what have you) and the various 'states' the circuit source finds itself in.

Stated perfectly and you are right about the JT using more power toward death. Usually either the ma draw increases or stays the same but the voltage draw increases...there is a give and take to keep the circuit running.....well most of the time!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 27, 2010, 09:56:56 AM

what have you ever done POSER ? ...

TRY TO STEAL MY WORK ?

COPY A CORE YOU FOUND IN A MICROWAVE ...

AND CALL IT YOUR OWN ...

LMFAO...

FOOL ...

GO BUILD MY COIL AGIN .... LOL...

and then try to tell me it is yours .. then ill digg up my post from literly years b4 you came around ... fool ...

i guess you didnt know ...

I BET THE HOLE SITE KNOWS THE TRUTH .... : )

WHY CAN I SPEAK MY MIND ?

WHY ?

HOW COME I HAVE NOT BEEN SET TO READ ONLY ... ..

SHALL I PUT EDDY THE GOAT BACK IN THE BARN TOO .... ?

CARE TO JOIN PONY ?

LMFAO

W

and mark if your coil is better than a cam board ... useing 1 transistor ... show me ... : )

i want to see a video of your coil chargeing a large value cap to hundreds of volts .. in less then 20 seconds ... from a aaa

350vdc 2500 uf..

and i AINT TALKING A TIP 31 OR A 3055 ... IM TALKING A TINY NPN TRANSISTOR ... : )

SURE I CAN FILL CAPS FAST TOO IF I USE A TIP OR A 3055 OR OTHERS.... : )

WICH I HAVE SPOKEN OF PUBLIC HOW AND WHY THEY WORK MUCH BETTER ...

AND SLAYER 007 COVERED THIS SO........YOU CANT TRY TO STEAL HIS WORK EATHER ....

btw MARK you remind me of seymore climeing up in the sick a more tree .. to see what he could see.....

hummmmmm....

you will LEARN OF MY PALACE BY RUNNING BACKWARD ... THIS IS FACT ! in doing so im trying to teach you to walk forward .. this is why some of my things are revielied ... only to point the way of the truth ..

so the truth is almost all is forgiven where i come from ... but NOBODY GOES 15 FOR FREE ...

that means ... im standing at the door !

: )

just like it allways has been ...

why all the birds in stone anywhy?

lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 27, 2010, 10:14:32 AM

Quote from: stprue on March 27, 2010, 09:43:44 AM
Thank you for the kind words IST! I'm deffintely not done with this circuit but I am putting it on hold for a while!

you bet ... that unit is a kicker ! best i have seen !

: )

yet .. not to say anyone elses is worse ...

gadget made a wicket unit kooler did too and others ...

however what you have build .. is second to none ! : )

: )

cant waite till you build more ..

and your verry good at makeing videos and explaineing things !

thank you !

xee#2 that cridder can draw ... : )
lol

im no good at drawings .. that is why i dont make one ... aswell it is so simple that ONE should not need a drawing ...

: )

H

i do agree a drawing will be required when i combine many of my toys to a single unit ...

but its more a blue print than a circut drawing ... : )

here is 1 more for you mark ! WHO IN THE HELL DO YOU THINK YOU ARE TO TELL ME WHO I AM ... LOL AND HAVE PISS ALL FOR PROOF ...

I HAVE WELL OVER 5 YEARS OF RESEARCH THAT SUPER SCEEDS MOST ON THIS PLANET!

when i released my TURBINE SELFRUNNING CONCEPT! AKA A POSITIVE FEED BACK LOOP .. DUH ...

I SENT PLANS TO HUNDREDS OF UNIVERSITIES .... : p

RIGHT DOWN TO A 1000TH OF AN INCH ...

guess what they never called me back ... not a 1 ... lol ever wonder why ? : )

think it worked or not ?

: P

all the plans were sent free of charge and by there request ! i never contacted 1 of them ... they all found me ....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 27, 2010, 02:58:04 PM

@ist

Come suck me dick fruit , and for assuming i was gay , you are a asshole .

And a clown . ::)

And btw if you really want to insult me , you will have to find something else.

Your Ego has taken over , you can't see anymore .

Va dont chiez !

And btw yes i did find a toroid already wound but not a jt , i did put the 2 extra wire and did see the potential it had ...

I never names it , others names it like me , not my fault there ...

So people are just better then you , learn to live with it ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 27, 2010, 03:02:08 PM

i have been able to fill a cap of low voltage ... via a jt .. high uf rate ... and have it self fire through a BURNT OUT CTYSTAL DIODE GONE SPARK GAP ...

............

that being said ... i plunk the battery cap b4 the self fireing caps that then feed the inline quenched magnetic spark gap ... b4 the neozap amp ..

W

when you add the neo zap you allow your self access to magnetic currents ... : ) now similar things take place when you do a quenched magnetic spark gap ... however there interaction with 1 and other is diffrent ... it can be saclar in nature magnetic electromagnetic electric ... and others ..... angles play a roll

polarity many things ...

: )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: forest on March 27, 2010, 03:15:10 PM

Take JT, charge cap, discharge into coil,let the coil collapse and reacharge cap.You will improve design or.. make it self-running... ::)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 27, 2010, 03:47:56 PM

Quote from: forest on March 27, 2010, 03:15:10 PM
Take JT, charge cap, discharge into coil,let the coil collapse and reacharge cap.You will improve design or.. make it self-running... ::)

: )

now this man knows hes a man ....

unlike lil britt!

lol

W

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on March 27, 2010, 05:19:22 PM

well i see the french fry and candyland war is still going..
but more on topic.. the video i posted last night was at 0.657 volts and this morning it was at 0.871volts..
and now it is at 0.852 volts.. it was running at 104 ma draw so i think i will reconnect it to the meter to see it the draw went up or down since the light is still going way passed 40 hours

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 27, 2010, 05:26:40 PM

Quote from: kooler on March 27, 2010, 05:19:22 PM
well i see the french fry and candyland war is still going..
but more on topic.. the video i posted last night was at 0.657 volts and this morning it was at 0.871volts..
and now it is at 0.852 volts.. it was running at 104 ma draw so i think i will reconnect it to the meter to see it the draw went up or down since the light is still going way passed 40 hours

robbie

sh!ft bro ....

still laughing my a$$ off ... dude i got like no body fat left laughed it all away ...

W

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 27, 2010, 05:37:12 PM

Quote from: kooler on March 27, 2010, 05:19:22 PM
well i see the french fry and candyland war is still going..
but more on topic.. the video i posted last night was at 0.657 volts and this morning it was at 0.871volts..
and now it is at 0.852 volts.. it was running at 104 ma draw so i think i will reconnect it to the meter to see it the draw went up or down since the light is still going way passed 40 hours

robbie

Good work Kooler !

You are right , war is stopped since there are too many civilian casualty .

That is it everyone , you like ist keep him.

I was raised to stand for what i believe , sorry am i bad .

Many people think like me , but are so used to be victims they don't even have the guts to do anything about it ...

I have worked on this tread to make it what it was , now its ist land.

Quite sad .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 27, 2010, 06:04:39 PM

I truly hope you 2 children are finished trashing this thread now.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 27, 2010, 06:10:20 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on March 27, 2010, 05:57:27 PM
its an ISland get it right dummy....... and your stuck on it .... there aint a ship a shore to pick you up !

W

I will not border people here again , you have fun ist .

To the others , i tried to clean this place , sorry ...

Now you will have to live whit ist ...

Shame on you !

You want to know what i did here i made you guys put secondaries on those jt , that is what i have done here , and ist invented earth .

So i lost !

@resonanceman

If anyone beside me had any backbone this would never have happens.

Sorry you don't see it yet , do anything worth mentioning and he will tell you its his work .

Good luck .

This tread is dead to me now. He destroyed it for me he will do the same to everyone.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on March 27, 2010, 06:16:09 PM

I would say that it is builders/learners/everyones land! ;D

We have come a long way on this thread and the progress seems to be endless so we should all focus on that and ignore everything else!

@all

Keep up the fantastic work 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 27, 2010, 07:49:45 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 27, 2010, 06:10:20 PM

@resonanceman

If anyone beside me had any backbone this would never have happens.

Sorry you don't see it yet , do anything worth mentioning and he will tell you its his work .

Good luck .

This tread is dead to me now. He destroyed it for me he will do the same to everyone.

MK

You are mistaking being reasonably mature with not having a backbone.

If IST thinks you kicked him .........he is going to kick back.

If you think someone has kicked you ...... you are going to kick back

Neither of you has the maturity to stop

Neither of you has the wisdom to see how pointless it is.

You both have some talent building things....... that is what should be shared here.

I would like both of you to go back over the last few pages and look at what has been posted.
Look at your posts as if someone else had wrote them
What would you think of this person?

gary

Edit

I am not going to help you trash this thread.........so ........this is my last post on the subject

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on March 27, 2010, 10:01:45 PM

so back to building ...

i found a bunch of caps i forgot i had probally work good for banger caps ..

100vdc 680 uf i have bout 100 or so ..

so i will likely use them at around 50 volts ..

so a simple way i can build this controled with materials i have aquired from the dollarstore is to use the chasers to discharge the caps 123 123 123 useing 1 cap per channel and useing 3 chasers ..

thats only 9 caps .. and i could possibally only ever drop 2040 uf per cycle of 3 chasers by the 3 cap batteries . in 1 revolution ... with 9 bangs .. thease chasers run fairly fast tho ... however i doubt the 3 cam bords could not keep up ..

espically with buffer time ...

W

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on March 27, 2010, 11:59:03 PM

the circuit i posted in the video has run for over 50 hours and the volts on battery are staying on 0.850-0.856
it started out with 104 ma's draw so i checked it after 48 hours and it has went from 104ma to 7.58 ma draw..
so that tell me why is running alot longer than i thought.. so i got a full charged battery and stuck it in and it had 110ma draw
so then i put a dead battery in it with 0.38 volts and it pulled 1.4 ma's.. the led is still full brightness..
so it is backwards from the regular jt that draws more as it dies..
and i still don't understand nothing about circuits so i might just drop this one..

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on March 28, 2010, 03:33:38 AM

Quote from: stprue on March 27, 2010, 06:16:09 PM
I would say that it is builders/learners/everyones land! ;D

We have come a long way on this thread and the progress seems to be endless so we should all focus on that and ignore everything else!

@all

Keep up the fantastic work 8)

Yeas, I look forward to you semi-final design video, if you don't have time, just say what the part numbers are like you did in the last one, I can probably figure out the schematic that way.

Quote from: kooler on March 27, 2010, 11:59:03 PM
the circuit i posted in the video has run for over 50 hours and the volts on battery are staying on 0.850-0.856
it started out with 104 ma's draw so i checked it after 48 hours and it has went from 104ma to 7.58 ma draw..
so that tell me why is running alot longer than i thought.. so i got a full charged battery and stuck it in and it had 110ma draw
so then i put a dead battery in it with 0.38 volts and it pulled 1.4 ma's.. the led is still full brightness..
so it is backwards from the regular jt that draws more as it dies..
and i still don't understand nothing about circuits so i might just drop this one..

robbie

That's a lot for JTC. ..maybe there's something going on at the transistor.

'Tuning' this transistor is relatively easy, just attach you ammeter leads on the C and E connection and measure the resistance across it and you apply a base current / voltage. I do this all the time, ..there can be many extra K ohms there and still turn it on. I was attempting to make a variable current device which would decrease resistance and voltage source decreased, that way the transistor could continue running beyond the 'point of death' voltage ...

I was going to do this with mosfets, but they're all quite senstive, I haven't been abel to get good readings on them.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 28, 2010, 04:21:14 AM

@all

I am back and will stay !

Thanks for all the support !

@Ist , check mate buddy , some bend , those that don't just break ...
Sunday is the day of the lord ... you got what you deserve ...

@pirate

You can erase the last few pages post from me and ist .

@Stepan

Thank you !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: detrix42 on March 28, 2010, 12:50:45 PM

@all: Here is something I am figuring out about the Joule Thief. With my current setup, it does not matter what the input voltage is, I still get 120v out. This is why a 1.5v battery drained to .5v can still power an LED. This is very interesting. So what do I have to do the get more voltage out. I would love to power my Newman motor with only 1.5v input. My guess is the number of windings in the larger side of the coil. So I will definitely want to try an automobile's ignition coil.

I believe you only need enough to bias the base-emitter junction of the transistor. And perhaps the speed at which the transistor can be switched on and off plays a factor in how much I can get out of a JTC. Hmmmm...............................

I have included a schematic of my setup, which seems to be the best efficiency (voltage wise, most bang per volt). I did not include a voltage value, because it seems to not matter.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Eastov on March 28, 2010, 01:49:56 PM

detrix,

Less turns on primary and more turns on secondary, you can get over 1kv. Another example is winding three coils on a 2.5 inch toroid core, 2 turn primary and 10 turn secondary (JT), with the collector at 80 turns. Those little flash camera circuits also put out over 1kv.

http://youtube.com/jeannacav
http://youtube.com/lidmotor

e
east

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: woopy on March 28, 2010, 02:19:36 PM

Hi Slayer

Always testing the main coil and today i could get a nice very stable 2mm long plasma arc with about 100 ma at 12 volts.

What is remarkable is that the Arc does not appear when i turn the current on. I have to light my CFL tube first (by contacting the main coil) than i have to slowly get away the CFL tube until the light desapears and only than the plasma arc is on.

It seems to be the necessity to turn the coil outer power on.

Very interesting

Can you explain why we need to turn this outer power on ? And can somebody explain me what is the power in a plasma arc. The smelling of ionised air is quite strong and depending of the gap distance it can burn my table. !

Regards

Laurent

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on March 28, 2010, 04:07:18 PM

[A author=detrix42 link=topic=6123.msg235096#msg235096 date=1269795045]
@all: Here is something I am figuring out about the Joule Thief. With my current setup, it does not matter what the input voltage is, I still get 120v out. This is why a 1.5v battery drained to .5v can still power an LED. This is very interesting. So what do I have to do the get more voltage out. I would love to power my Newman motor with only 1.5v input. My guess is the number of windings in the larger side of the coil. So I will definitely want to try an automobile's ignition coil.

I believe you only need enough to bias the base-emitter junction of the transistor. And perhaps the speed at which the transistor can be switched on and off plays a factor in how much I can get out of a JTC. Hmmmm...............................

I have included a schematic of my setup, which seems to be the best efficiency (voltage wise, most bang per volt). I did not include a voltage value, because it seems to not matter.
[/quote]

Hi detrix what transistor and diode are you using?
Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: detrix42 on March 28, 2010, 05:25:06 PM

Quote from: guruji on March 28, 2010, 04:07:18 PM
[A author=detrix42 link=topic=6123.msg235096#msg235096 date=1269795045]
@all: Here is something I am figuring out about the Joule Thief. With my current setup, it does not matter what the input voltage is, I still get 120v out. This is why a 1.5v battery drained to .5v can still power an LED. This is very interesting. So what do I have to do the get more voltage out. I would love to power my Newman motor with only 1.5v input. My guess is the number of windings in the larger side of the coil. So I will definitely want to try an automobile's ignition coil.

I believe you only need enough to bias the base-emitter junction of the transistor. And perhaps the speed at which the transistor can be switched on and off plays a factor in how much I can get out of a JTC. Hmmmm...............................

I have included a schematic of my setup, which seems to be the best efficiency (voltage wise, most bang per volt). I did not include a voltage value, because it seems to not matter.

Hi detrix what transistor and diode are you using?
Thanks

I have gone through a few transistors. Just a general NPN. currently I have a 6256N719, and the diode is a general purpose 2n4007

Nothing special here.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 28, 2010, 06:43:09 PM

@detrix

Usually the transistor dose make a huge difference in the results , try 2n3055 or 2n2222 , but the transformer you use will not give you that much more .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slayer007 on March 28, 2010, 09:30:16 PM

Quote from: woopy on March 28, 2010, 02:19:36 PM
Hi A

Always testing the main coil and today i could get a nice very stable 2mm long plasma arc with about 100 ma at 12 volts.

What is remarkable is that the Arc does not appear when i turn the current on. I have to light my CFL tube first (by contacting the main coil) than i have to slowly get away the CFL tube until the light desapears and only than the plasma arc is on.

It seems to be the necessity to turn the coil outer power on.

Very interesting

Can you explain why we need to turn this outer power on ? And can somebody explain me what is the power in a plasma arc. The smelling of ionised air is quite strong and depending of the gap distance it can burn my table. !

Regards

Laurent

Nice one Woopy.

I started a new thread for this under.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8977.new#new

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: detrix42 on March 29, 2010, 11:54:20 PM

Quote from: Eastov on March 28, 2010, 01:49:56 PM
detrix,

Less turns on primary and more turns on secondary, you can get over 1kv. Another example is winding three coils on a 2.5 inch toroid core, 2 turn primary and 10 turn secondary (JT), with the collector at 80 turns. Those little flash camera circuits also put out over 1kv.

http://youtube.com/jeannacav
http://youtube.com/lidmotor

e
east

Thank you Estov, but I am having some difficulties. Its probably something I am not doing quite right. I dont have any ferrite toroids that big available, so I am trying a speaker magnet about that size. I tried the 2 windings and 10 windings (actually I did more like 20 windings), but this could not even light my LED. I wanted to get the JTC part working before I added the 80 turns. So I am not sure what I am doing wrong. hmmmm......

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 30, 2010, 01:01:12 AM

Quote from: detrix42 on March 29, 2010, 11:54:20 PM
Thank you Estov, but I am having some difficulties. Its probably something I am not doing quite right. I dont have any ferrite toroids that big available, so I am trying a speaker magnet about that size. I tried the 2 windings and 10 windings (actually I did more like 20 windings), but this could not even light my LED. I wanted to get the JTC part working before I added the 80 turns. So I am not sure what I am doing wrong. hmmmm......

You can't use a speaker magnet, or any magnet of any kind for the toroid. The entire trick to all of this, as I understand it, is the ability of the ferrite to very quickly magnetize when energized and then demagnetizes very, very quickly which give the spike of the back emf which is where all of the energy lies.

Soft iron (meaning iron that magnetizes quickly and demagnetizes quickly) will work also but, you do not ever want to use a magnet.

I hope this helps. Please ask more questions if I have not been clear here.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: The Observer on March 30, 2010, 02:29:37 AM

Magnetic Permeability....
You have to understand it to understand coil's and cores !

Detrix..study the chart below and you might get an idea of how the transformer works.

The Observer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Eastov on March 30, 2010, 03:00:59 AM

Detrix,
You can use a smaller toroid, or maybe the square type from an old TV flyback transformer. Here is the schematic which was originally posted with the toroid pic I posted earlier...
e

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: forest on March 30, 2010, 03:32:26 AM

Iron is ok, but what about cadmium ? ::)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 30, 2010, 04:05:36 AM

Quote from: forest on March 30, 2010, 03:32:26 AM
Iron is ok, but what about cadmium ? ::)

It has to be soft iron as in soft like not holding a magnetic charge. Regular iron does not work. Some toroids are made of powdered soft iron and they work ok too. You can find these inside cfl light bulb bases.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Eastov on March 30, 2010, 05:47:27 AM

You guys can try air core too, like MK1 & slayer's latest.
Just spools of wire or wrapped around paper tubes,
one inside of the other. You'll have to play around
with their positioning, slide one into the other to
get things going.
e

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Eastov on March 30, 2010, 07:00:39 AM

Anyone else watching the gotoluc self-runner resonate coil project?
Heads Up!
He's now saying that mosfet's capacitance is critical to self-run (mosfet is mandatory).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8BehANEVUo&feature=sub
e

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: detrix42 on March 30, 2010, 09:32:43 AM

@pirate, theObserver, and estov: Thank you so very much. I really appreciate all the help. Now lets see if I make things work better.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 30, 2010, 03:06:39 PM

Quote from: detrix42 on March 29, 2010, 11:54:20 PM
Thank you Estov, but I am having some difficulties. Its probably something I am not doing quite right. I dont have any ferrite toroids that big available, so I am trying a speaker magnet about that size. I tried the 2 windings and 10 windings (actually I did more like 20 windings), but this could not even light my LED. I wanted to get the JTC part working before I added the 80 turns. So I am not sure what I am doing wrong. hmmmm......

Hi dextrix42,
I want to add to what Bill has said.

My first joule thief was made on a ferrite magnet from radio shack. I did not know not to use a magnet and they came in a toroidal shape.
It worked with 2 batteries -3v- for a day, then stopped.
The transistor had stopped working because magnetism can blow a transistor.

I took it apart and after a month it worked again.

So, there are 2 things that can blow a transistor.
1- too much voltage
2- too much magnetism

I made a joule thief from a tiny toroid found in a 10w cfl bulb circuit.
The new cfl bulbs all have these circuits and they are a good source for electronic parts.
My video on that is here if you feel like looking into it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnNQrYy_Bw4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnNQrYy_Bw4)
There is no sound and should work OK on dial-up too.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on March 30, 2010, 06:34:31 PM

Here is my newest video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BER7FTW1FfA

thanks to lasersaber and Shannon for making this latest success possible!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Eastov on March 31, 2010, 03:14:47 AM

Recommend movie "Zeitgeist" and also the "Addendum"?
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=zeitgeist#

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 31, 2010, 04:30:06 AM

Quote from: jeanna on March 30, 2010, 06:34:31 PM
Here is my newest video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BER7FTW1FfA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BER7FTW1FfA)

thanks to lasersaber and Shannon for making this latest success possible!

jeanna

Jeanna:

Bravo! Great video and great work.

I have a name for your new set-up: Jeanna's Power Plant.

Excellent work.

Bill PS Try a larger supercap and hook it to one of your Fuji JT's and run you LOA light from it. I believe this will work.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 31, 2010, 04:16:31 PM

Quote from: jeanna on March 30, 2010, 06:34:31 PM
Here is my newest video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BER7FTW1FfA

thanks to lasersaber and Shannon for making this latest success possible!

jeanna

Jeanna

Great work getting your power plant running

:)

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 31, 2010, 04:23:04 PM

Quote from: Eastov on March 30, 2010, 07:00:39 AM
Anyone else watching the gotoluc self-runner resonate coil project?
Heads Up!
He's now saying that mosfet's capacitance is critical to self-run (mosfet is mandatory).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8BehANEVUo&feature=sub
e

I see that there is a link for the energetic forum with the video.
Do you know if there is a thread started on this site for that?

I am thinking of expermenting with the idea.
I can think of several ways that it might be used.

I would go to the energetic forum and post there but I am registered there but unable to post....I have emailed them but didn't get a reply.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 31, 2010, 04:26:58 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on March 31, 2010, 04:23:04 PM
I see that there is a link for the energetic forum with the video.
Do you know if there is a thread started on this site for that?

I am thinking of expermenting with the idea.
I can think of several ways that it might be used.

I would go to the energetic forum and post there but I am registered there but unable to post....I have emailed them but didn't get a reply.

gary

There is a tread of the same name here.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8892.msg235622#new

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Eastov on March 31, 2010, 04:45:00 PM

Gary,
Go to energetic and find a moderator, send him a message or post. It usually takes around 2 weeks, lock happens when you change your profile/email. Same thing happens here. Also try using old email?
e

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 31, 2010, 05:29:46 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on March 31, 2010, 04:26:58 PM
There is a tread of the same name here.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8892.msg235622#new

Mark

Thanks for the link

30 pages.........looks like I have a little reading to do.

I will be posting there once I test a few ideas.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 31, 2010, 05:33:19 PM

Quote from: Eastov on March 31, 2010, 04:45:00 PM
Gary,
Go to energetic and find a moderator, send him a message or post. It usually takes around 2 weeks, lock happens when you change your profile/email. Same thing happens here. Also try using old email?
e

Eastov

Same email and profile.

I did not post there much........then not for quite a while..........so I am guessing that they have a time limit on how long you can be inactive without getting shut out.

I think I will just stay with the thread here.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tysb3 on April 01, 2010, 10:50:56 AM

Hi,
@ All
Maybe this circuit could be useful for some thing. Any one can improve this. I'm not strong in creating circuits. I was trying to feedback JT. Still it's not OU.
But I just start.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on April 01, 2010, 09:05:59 PM

Quote from: tysb3 on April 01, 2010, 10:50:56 AM
Hi,
@ All
Maybe this circuit could be useful for some thing. Any one can improve this. I'm not strong in creating circuits. I was trying to feedback JT. Still it's not OU.
But I just start.

tysb3

I am not exactly sure what you are trying to do with your circuit.
Is that 2 JTs running in series?

How much of the thread have you read?

It seems to me that all the JT circuits that may have some OU going on involve using secondarys

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tysb3 on April 01, 2010, 11:03:30 PM

Hi ,resonanceman.
Now just about strong pulse about 75V, or more. I don't tune this enough.
Secondaries on the next.
Now I put to charge 1 ded 6V dead alkaline battery on first jt ( on "+" and "-" C1 ) and 1 ded 6V rechargeble battery on second jt ( straight on C Q2 and "-" C1 )
I'll keep ower night and see how to change voltage on feeding 1.3V rech. battery.
I change ZD1 to 6.8V and put R2 1.3K

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on April 02, 2010, 02:29:28 AM

Quote from: tysb3 on April 01, 2010, 11:03:30 PM
Hi ,resonanceman.
Now just about strong pulse about 75V, or more. I don't tune this enough.
Secondaries on the next.
Now I put to charge 1 ded 6V dead alkaline battery on first jt ( on "+" and "-" C1 ) and 1 ded 6V rechargeble battery on second jt ( straight on C Q2 and "-" C1 )
I'll keep ower night and see how to change voltage on feeding 1.3V rech. battery.
I change ZD1 to 6.8V and put R2 1.3K

Hi tysb3,

The JT thread is all about keeping the circuit as basic and as simple as possible for a given output. The whole concept is to minimise the current draw from your source battery while at the same time producing the highest useful output from your circuit. Take a closer look over the past projects that have been posted in this thread to get some ideas of how things have steadily developed over time.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: detrix42 on April 02, 2010, 08:59:17 AM

@all: A couple of days ago, my wife was at a store (Walmart), and picked me up 3 used disposable cameras. I have successfully removed the transformer, and the large capacitor. Thanks to the posts on this thread, I was able to wire it up correctly, and get over 300v out of a 1.5v battery. This is amazing. I do plan on hooking this up to my Newman motor real soon.

thanks to every one for their help.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tysb3 on April 02, 2010, 12:05:52 PM

Hi, crowclaw
This is simple as possible JT :) who's feeding another simple as possible JT (instead lamps or leeds) who give strong high voltage pulse and feedback source battery at the same time.
It's only 2 transistors.
I see on this tread circuits with 2 transistors
If it's too complicated , than sorry

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: The Observer on April 02, 2010, 01:28:47 PM

Tsyb,

Great work.
I am new to the Joule Thief Circuit...
although I theorized a couple years ago that a ferro core / resonance could have some interesting effects.

After building my 1st Joule Thief Circuit one of the first things I wondered was..

What would happen if I fed a Joule Thief into another Joule Thief ?

Heck... make it 5 or 10, but 2 is a good start.

To those knowledgeable of this thread.

What is the status of experiments pertaining to feeding the JT into another JT into another JT ect?

The Observer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tysb3 on April 02, 2010, 01:38:42 PM

Hi, The Observer,
ty,
what we win on this circuit - feedback source battery , strong (amperage), high voltage pulse.
what we loose - loose too mach frequency :'( ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 02, 2010, 03:09:54 PM

Quote from: The Observer on April 02, 2010, 01:28:47 PM
...
After building my 1st Joule Thief Circuit one of the first things I wondered was..

What would happen if I fed a Joule Thief into another Joule Thief ?

Heck... make it 5 or 10, but 2 is a good start.

To those knowledgeable of this thread.

What is the status of experiments pertaining to feeding the JT into another JT into another JT ect?

The Observer

Hi
I also wondered that, and when I said it MK1 said he had found the results very disappointing.
Me too.

In the end I realized that the joule thief works from a low voltage dc source mostly because of the transistor along with some other things.
Go ahead and see for yourself.
Maybe you can figure out a way.
That would be cool.

In fact, I was trying to make that work when I stumbled upon the circuit that did work and so I encourage you to follow your hopes, because you might discover something really great.
And we will all benefit.

jeanna

@tysb3,
Thank you for your explanation.
The "hand scratching" helped me a lot.

-----------
edit add some more...
In the end what enhanced the output a lot and seemingly without end was to add an inductor in series to the secondary output.
If each load had its own inductor the pulses could be enhanced.
Sometimes a cap which "tanked" it would help, but it was not generally necessary for the effect.
The best most enduring effect came from adding an inductor in series with the load or light.
I used those helmholz inductors at first, but found it was better to make my own.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 02, 2010, 06:00:19 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 02, 2010, 03:09:54 PM
Hi
I also wondered that, and when I said it MK1 said he had found the results very disappointing.
Me too.

In the end I realized that the joule thief works from a low voltage dc source mostly because of the transistor along with some other things.
Go ahead and see for yourself.
Maybe you can figure out a way.
That would be cool.

I've tried this as well, it seems as though impedance plays a role in the dispensation of energy...the voltage is only produced after the flow of energy has ceased in the inductor and thus surges for an exit ... it is not strong enough to make a significant difference by passing through yet another inductor.

I think the exciter and joule thief circuits should be considered 'irritable electricity' ...

- - - - - -

I found a relatively old book by Texas instruments from 1963 which contains 7 pnp based circuits which, as it stands, do exactly what the joule thief does in principle. I found it for 50 cents at a local thrift shop.

Some interesting circuits here in this book, perhaps I can translate them to a diagram soon. Some of them contain multiple transistors.

The book is titled "Transistor Circuit Design".

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tysb3 on April 03, 2010, 11:27:20 AM

I correct pot R2

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: The Observer on April 03, 2010, 12:22:32 PM

Jeanna,

So you tried this?

JT---> D=C ----> JT

That is a Diode and Capacitor capturing JT Pulse... then another JT feeding off of said Capacitor.

The Observer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Flux4Energizer on April 03, 2010, 12:49:10 PM

@tysb3

Your Double Joule Thief circuit looks nice.
Have you already tested it?
I would like to see how many LED's you can light of it and how much mA it draws.

Keep up the good work!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 03, 2010, 01:05:40 PM

Quote from: The Observer on April 03, 2010, 12:22:32 PM
Jeanna,

So you tried this?

JT---> D=C ----> JT

That is a Diode and Capacitor capturing JT Pulse... then another JT feeding off of said Capacitor.

The Observer

No, I didn't.
(But is that not what Kooler's circuit does?)
I cannot figure how to get 70v or more into a safe form to use in the second tier.
Then also, when some of us have tried to make the jtc with a higher input voltage the results are not really different.
The jtc is making pulses, and that is what it is about.
The sharper the pulses, the better.

But you could discover something I have not.

If you read my posts about the 2 tiered circuit, you will see that I discovered that the second transistor was not even operating.
I went off in another direction and never went back to try making the higher voltage input work,.
But, don't let this stop YOU!
Follow your ideas, you may not get the solution you are thinking you will get now, but you will learn a lot and probably get A solution.

So, go for it!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on April 03, 2010, 01:46:48 PM

@tsyb3,

High... I didn't intend to offend you in any way regarding your circuit, only to encourage you to go through previous postings on the JT thread. It just seemed that you were taking a sledge hammer to crack a nut and increasing the power draw. Sometimes you have to try things out to satisfy your own curiosity and the results can come as a surprise... it's all a learning curve from which all ideas posted can be shared and the learning continues and grows. Let's see how it pans out for you. Keep us posted when you have some results... well done. Kind Regards

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 03, 2010, 03:10:29 PM

About multiple JT's.

I had thought about this a while ago but never tried it. It just seemed to me that since the basic jt puts out pulsed dc, unless rectified it would not operate the transistor on the second (3rd, 4th, etc) jt, am I right? Now, I suppose you could have the first jt's pulsed output running to other bifilar wound coils without any additional transistors but I don't think you would get anything extra that you would not have received from just using a larger toroid in the first place.

I believe Gary did this a while ago by linking a number of smaller toroids to run as one jt circuit. I believe he did this to find a work around as the real big toroids are kind of hard to come by these days. I don't believe Gary had a transistor on each toroid, only one of them, but he can correct me here.

Anyway, this is why I never tried it although, like we always say, you never know what might be discovered by trying something.

Jeanna mentioned that the second transistor was not running which makes sense as it would need dc not pulsed dc, unless you rectified the output, I don't see how any additional transistors would operate at all. And, like Crowclaw mentioned, every additional transistor would take power to run which is against what most of us are working toward here.

Just my 2.5 cents worth.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 03, 2010, 03:41:36 PM

@all

I have been toying around with those dual jt idea , first i found that my salvaged transistor acted surprisingly well on 3 volts , maybe we don't use the right transistor to run at higher voltages .

I made a drawing of some of me ideas , but the idea would be to make a perfect mirror pushing while puling , like the blood system , and then see what one kick dose .

I tested the schematics (on the cardboard), they work , the coil can pretty much connected in polarity for the basic jt to work , but greater care is needed to get the outside satellite to work .

Overall way more fun to be had !

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tysb3 on April 03, 2010, 03:49:35 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 link=topic=6123.msg236109#msg236109 A=1270321829
About A JT's.

And, like Crowclaw mentioned, every additional A would take power to run which is against what most of us are working toward here.

Bill

Hi, Pirate88179,

Additional transistor is working on feedback line. He's only transfering power from 1rst JT to source battery, - dont use it. Source battery use it for self recharge :)
"E" Q2 is not on "-" battery !!!!!!!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tysb3 on April 03, 2010, 04:09:42 PM

Quote from: Flux4Energizer on April 03, 2010, 12:49:10 PM
@tysb3

Have you already tested it?

Hi, Flux4Energizer,

Not yet.
Now I'm tryig to improve efficiency, to minimize curent draw from source battery and maybe get OU ::)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tysb3 on April 03, 2010, 04:32:20 PM

@ All, who try to replicate my 2JT.

All my parts are from salvage. What I put on circuit is far away from ideal. Any one, who have electronics knowledge can improve this
I'm little short in electronics knowledge. :(
But with little help my big friend Tektronix465 I can move forward :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tysb3 on April 03, 2010, 06:25:14 PM

Hi, crowclaw,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfYadHDRxac :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 03, 2010, 08:09:11 PM

@all

Ok i did some test and get more output from my dual circuit with the base from one on the others toroid.

That way the bemf from the collector from one jt feeds the base of the second jt by induction , i can prove it but i believe they sync and work as one.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 03, 2010, 08:22:38 PM

@all

Look what i have found ... When the circuit is live ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 03, 2010, 08:26:47 PM

Does this show that you can light 3 leds in series with only 1 AA when the current path is through your new coil?

Pretty cool.

Is that a series or parallel light circuit?

good stuff, Mark!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: The Observer on April 03, 2010, 08:26:58 PM

mK.. Jeanna and the others...

Yea... i don't see how a pulse is going to run a second JT.

However a Diode and Capacitor can create another 'battery" that allows JT 2 to do the charge Inductor thing on it's own terms.

JT1==== D + C ==== JT2 ==== JT2output

I will give it try later... I think this is what tysb3 is doing..

The Observer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 03, 2010, 08:38:03 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 03, 2010, 08:26:47 PM
Does this show that you can light 3 leds in series with only 1 AA when the current path is through your new coil?

Pretty cool.

Is that a series or parallel light circuit?

good stuff, Mark!

jeanna

Yep when the circuit is connected the satellite coil pickup the current going to and back from the battery .

They are not in series but parallel but they share the cores , so they are inductively coupled via the core .

I got the inspiration of the experiments with 2 jt on one core , the second jt working without the connection to the battery .

But i use the NPN and PNP pair and the base from on works from the second one bemf , that way i think i can sync both circuit , if i had a scope i could help more there but i got idea instead ...

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tysb3 on April 03, 2010, 09:17:08 PM

how its looks on diagram

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on April 03, 2010, 10:51:55 PM

with all my test so far on the regular jt the best combo is the gadgetmall trick with the cap on the unused leg of the pot..
gives you better light on the secondary with alot lower ma's draw..

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tysb3 on April 03, 2010, 11:20:52 PM

Thanks, Robbie,
I think, I remember this circuit, it's was on second stage maybe?
I'll try to find it.

sb

--------------------

I find it : http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.2030

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on April 03, 2010, 11:57:40 PM

tysb3
yep .. right on it ..
it lowers the input ma's without hurting the output..
the only problem is that you have to use a pot..
on my scope the secret was it feed the transistor with two different feq's.. letting you increase the pot's resistance..
hope it helps with you double jt circuit

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 04, 2010, 12:30:32 AM

Thanks for explaining that robbie and tsb3,

I guess that is why I never got it to work!
I never understood gadget's little trick.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: The Observer on April 04, 2010, 01:26:34 AM

I put together a Double Joule Thief.
It did work... I will have a report shortly.

The Observer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: FreeEnergy on April 04, 2010, 06:38:39 AM

Quote from: The Observer on April 04, 2010, 01:26:34 AM
I put together a Double Joule Thief.
It did work... I will have a report shortly.

The Observer

sweet!
diagrams please :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: ltseung888 on April 04, 2010, 11:17:21 PM

Quote from: FreeEnergy on April 04, 2010, 06:38:39 AM
sweet!
diagrams please :)

Some early information is available in reply 203

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8825.msg236191#msg236191

The basic theory is that we can Lead-Out or Draw-In electron motion energy via pulsing a resonant circuit. The Law of COnservation of Energy has not been violated.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: The Observer on April 05, 2010, 12:46:52 AM

Oops,

Thought I had posted my Double Joule Thief here also.
I will do so when I get back to my regular computer.

The Observer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: The Observer on April 05, 2010, 01:06:09 AM

Here is my Double Joule Thief Circuit.

I played around with Resistances & Capacitors a bit to obtain this result.
The Matronix Electronics lab is certainly handy for doing that !

Been running 3 LEDs for 24 hours.
Start was 1.312 V now at 1.291 V so a loss of .021 V.
Or about .001 V loss per hour.

The Observer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 05, 2010, 01:19:16 AM

Very nicely done. Excellent presentation too. What diode did you end up using here?

Thanks,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 05, 2010, 02:09:15 PM

I don't want to be a pest, but maybe some folks who have recently arrived have not noticed this circuit from last year.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7617.msg203334#msg203334 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7617.msg203334#msg203334)

That is a direct link to a post with pictures and above it and below it are the relevant details.
Basically there are 30 blazing bright leds running from a single AAA NiMH taking a couple of mA to run the basic circuit and all the lights are coming from the sedcondary which does not add to the draw a bit.

Why doesn't someone move this circuit forward instead of reworking how to make pulses?

In addition:
If making a few leds light from a AAA is considered ou because leds cannot run at all on a single AAA, then what pray tell is running 30 leds from a single AAA?

Please excuse this outburst.
;)

thank you,

jeanna

here is one pic of this:

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 05, 2010, 02:19:30 PM

Jeanna:

Good point.

Here is a repost of a link to my video of running 400 leds from a "dead" AA battery:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RVvdCovYDY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RVvdCovYDY)

I have to admit, I would hate to be a new person coming into this topic and having to read all of the previous posts. I would do it, but it would take me a while to do so.

The above video was with the Fuji JT whereas Jeanna's was with her hand wound JT. I made this video before I began winding the JT with secondaries in the MK1/Jeanna style.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: ltseung888 on April 05, 2010, 04:06:16 PM

Quote from: jeanna on April 05, 2010, 02:09:15 PM
I don't want to be a pest, but maybe some folks who have recently arrived have not noticed this circuit from last year.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7617.msg203334#msg203334 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7617.msg203334#msg203334)

That is a direct link to a post with pictures and above it and below it are the relevant details.
Basically there are 30 blazing bright A running from a single AAA NiMH taking a couple of mA to run the basic circuit and all the lights are coming from the sedcondary which does not add to the draw a bit.

Why doesn't someone move this circuit forward instead of reworking how to make pulses?

In addition:
If making a few leds light from a AAA is considered ou because leds cannot run at all on a single AAA, then what pray tell is running 30 leds from a single AAA?

Please excuse this outburst.
;)

thank you,

jeanna

here is one pic of this:

Thank you, Jeanna.

My plan is to build a battery charger for the electric car batteries. We know about the Bob Boyce Hex Controller Battery Charger. The battery is automatically recharged from the circuit without connection to mains electricity.

I was hoping to do something similar with the Joule Thief. Any suggestions?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tysb3 on April 05, 2010, 04:26:20 PM

@ All

My latest goal is get efficiency 1 or >1, - not lighting a LEDs. (corrected for Jeanna)
I think , I'm close to gadgetmalls idea. He was trying to charge another battery, I'll try to selfcharge running battery.
I don't want to do traffic on this tread.
I want to move to gadgetmalls Second Stage Joule Thief Circuits. If nobody against? , somebody is inerested in my works ?
If not, - I can be quiet.
Now this tread is still.
I wish gadgetmall comeback.e

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on April 05, 2010, 04:31:12 PM

jeanna quote:

" Whenever I remove the battery and the circuit is on 'drain' from the supercap, the 4 last lights first get brighter and then slowly dim to out. Ultimately, they outlast the rest. "

I believe there may be some value to that phenomenon which should be explored.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 05, 2010, 04:42:26 PM

Quote from: ltseung888 on April 05, 2010, 04:06:16 PM
Thank you, Jeanna.

My plan is to build a battery charger for the electric car batteries. We know about the Bob Boyce Hex Controller Battery Charger. The battery is automatically recharged from the circuit without connection to mains electricity.

I was hoping to do something similar with the Joule Thief. Any suggestions?

The biggest point is to use the joule thief as a pulse generator to generate pulses from only the secondary or pickup coil, and to never use the C-E junction for a led.

I do not have any more specific suggestions beyond building one or two jt circuits and using them for experiments.
It takes patience, because you will only have ghost voltage at first, but just keep cycling the recharge.

My battery took less and less ghost charge for 6 cycles before it turned around. Now, it gets almost as much charge as with amps from a normal charger.

John Bedini says it takes 20-30 cycles for a battery to take a good charge from spikes.
I agree.

So, in short...
Do it!!
And please report.

jeanna

edit add:
@tysb3
what does

Quotenot A leeds.

mean?
Can you say it a different way?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 05, 2010, 09:56:33 PM

Quote from: tysb3 on April 05, 2010, 04:26:20 PM
@ All

My latest goal is get efficiency 1 or >1, - not lighting a LEDs. (corrected for Jeanna)
I think , I'm close to gadgetmalls idea. He was trying to charge another battery, I'll try to selfcharge running battery.
I don't want to do traffic on this tread.
I want to move to gadgetmalls Second Stage Joule Thief Circuits. If nobody against? , somebody is inerested in my works ?
If not, - I can be quiet.
Now this tread is still.
I wish gadgetmall comeback.e

Keep in mind the notion that loading the circuit will create different operating conditions that not loading it, I've found that without a load, the circuit consumes more energy.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tysb3 on April 05, 2010, 11:33:14 PM

[quote A=jadaro2600 link=topic=6123.msg236456#msg236456 date=1270518993]
Keep in mind the notion that loading the circuit will create different operating conditions that not loading it, I've found that without a load, the circuit consumes more energy.
[/quote]

Thanks, jadaro2600,
I'm familar with "2 connected cans" tricks.
Soon I'll finish first experiment of brake OU from first assault :))))) and post some results.
It's nothing special but I'll withstand from it.
I still have tooooooo mach place for improve - 2 JTs !!!!! :))))
seconds JTs coil pull some amperage..... (that's for reserve)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 11, 2010, 03:20:56 PM

@all

I made some videos of the anomalies found while working on my new coil ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJsz2Kd4R7o&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfT83_X2B1M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2r5npBpWpg&feature=channel

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 12, 2010, 10:21:37 PM

Things got quiet here,

Hopefully I'll have more time to work on some alternative circuits in May ..after all these finals get done with.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on April 13, 2010, 01:16:57 PM

To the Joule Thief Masters in this Forum!

I just built my first Joule Thief (and I know you moved way beyond that beginner level).

May be one of the experienced Joule Thief experimenters finds the time and has enough pity to give me some advice?

Attached find a cope shot and and some information about my Joule Thief.

I wounder whether the 15 KHz indicate that everything works well? I only get 2 Volts over the LED from a 1 Volt AAA battery. Chanell 1 is the measurement over the LED and Chanell 2 is the voltage over the battery. It does not work with a 0.5 Volt battery, but a 0.8 Volt battery is enough to light the LED.

The Joule Thief is now running about 4 hours and the transistor 2N3904 stays cool (AAA battery about 1 Volt).

-----------------
The big question: Did I put too many or too few turns over the Toroid?
-----------------

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gyulasun on April 13, 2010, 02:38:32 PM

Hi Conrad,

Please allow one notice with respect to the output voltage, for you sound as if you were expecting more output voltage? (If you don't, than sorry :) )

Red LEDs forward voltage drop range between 1.7-1.9V or so and they are very good in doubling as Zener diodes because they can nicely limit the voltage across their legs when they sense forward polarity. So no surprise you see a near 2V_pp across it, the LED keeps collector AC voltage at its forward voltage level, cannot do much else...
Just place a similar red LED in series with the first one (also in forward direction of course) and you will find a near 4V_pp voltage across them with your nice scope.
And if you increase the number of turns at the output to get an up-transforming turns ratio, then you may connect more LEDs in series but you surely know this.

rgds, Gyula

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on April 13, 2010, 02:49:49 PM

Quote from: conradelektro on April 13, 2010, 01:16:57 PM
To the Joule Thief Masters in this Forum!

I just built my first Joule Thief (and I know you moved way beyond that beginner level).

Greetings, Conrad

Hi Conrad and welcome, you'll find plenty of help and support here for your project. Your circuit is fine... now try adding another led(s) in series with the one you have! and see how many more you can light! Spend some time going back through this thread to give you further inspiration for what you can do with this simple circuit. A single LED will light up to reach it's maximum working voltage after which point it's series current increases rapidly and the LED will then overheat and fail. The working voltage is generally up towards 3 volts depending on colour for standard LED's. Well done Kind Regards

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on April 13, 2010, 03:16:20 PM

Hello gyulasun and crowclaw !

Thank you very much for your help, and it helps a lot. I overlooked the voltage drop and will try more LEDs as you suggested. I will also experiment with different numbers of turns.

--------- What also puzzles me is the frequency. -------------

--------- 15 KHz seems to be rather low. Is this the impedance of the Toroid? How could I get a higher frequency? -------------

I went through many posts and much was helpful. And I started the winding of a big coil for a "Slayer exciter". I found the forum GBluer(Slayer) Exciter. I am fascinated by the videos posted by Slayer and Lidmotor and I think a lot about Slayers circuit. It is simpler than the Stiffler thing, which I do not understand at all.

I am also aware of the experiments with a secondary on the Toroid, as was discussed in this forum and elsewhere (I collected many hints from the posts). I want to try that too.

It will take me a while to catch up to the level of this forum. But I got most of the stuff now (transistors, diodes, LEDs, enameled wire, neons, ...).

Thank you again, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 13, 2010, 04:29:12 PM

Quote from: conradelektro on April 13, 2010, 01:16:57 PM
To the Joule Thief Masters in this Forum!

I just built my first Joule Thief (and I know you moved way beyond that beginner level).

May be one of the experienced Joule Thief experimenters finds the time and has enough pity to give me some advice?

Attached find a cope shot and and some information about my Joule Thief.

I wounder whether the 15 KHz indicate that everything works well? I only get 2 Volts over the LED from a 1 Volt AAA battery. Chanell 1 is the measurement over the LED and Chanell 2 is the voltage over the battery. It does not work with a 0.5 Volt battery, but a 0.8 Volt battery is enough to light the LED.

The Joule Thief is now running about 4 hours and the transistor 2N3904 stays cool (AAA battery about 1 Volt).

-----------------
The big question: Did I put too many or too few turns over the Toroid?
-----------------

Greetings, Conrad

Conrad:

I see a potential problem with your JT. First, you used a powdered iron toroid not ferrite. Some of these can work ok, but some do not seem to work at all or with lower output. Even if you used a ferrite toroid of known properties, if it was much different that what we were using back then, you would need to tune your circuit to the toroid.

In other words, the 1k resistor only works under certain conditions. Hook up a 5 k pot to the base with no other resistor. Adjust the circuit until you get the best numbers of whatever you are looking for be it low amp draw or highest volts out. measure the pot and use this a your resistor value and remove the pot. Or you can leave it in if you want and just use that.

Otherwise, it looks like a nicely wound JT there. Your freq. is in the correct range so I suspect that when you adjust your resistance to the base, you will see better results. This toroid may work for you is what I am trying to say, once you tune the circuit to it.

I hope this helps.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 13, 2010, 05:13:26 PM

Hi Conrad.
Yes, your jtc looks fine to me as well.
My guess on the 15Khz is it might be the toroid.
The elements of a joule thief circuit become complicated very quickly.

In my circuits I add another coil around the toroid and it is on that other wire that I can add many more leds in series.
In fact, I need to caution you about adding too many turns for one led.
I normally advise to limit the turns to 6 turns for the first led.
Then, add another and another until the led is bright.

Now, you can know how many turns you need to make for each led in series.
It is easy on most of the little toroids, like the one you used, to add enough turns to put 6-8 leds in series.

So, try adding a 6 turn pick up and see how well it does.
Oh remember that if the light does not turn on one way turn it around, because this secondary-pickup wire has a neg and pos side.

I assume you know that you must scrape off the varnish from the ends of the magnet wire before it will work.
(I am reminding all those others who are lurking and do not know to do this.)

jeanna

edit
I see many of us posted at the same time.
I agree with Bill, the blue toroid looks like a lower permeability toroid.
If it is giving 15KHz, you can try a secondary as I just described.
If it is low permeability you will need many more turns to get a dangerously high voltage, so give it a try.
j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gyulasun on April 13, 2010, 05:20:07 PM

Quote from: conradelektro on April 13, 2010, 03:16:20 PM
...

--------- What also puzzles me is the frequency. -------------

--------- 15 KHz seems to be rather low. Is this the impedance of the Toroid? How could I get a higher frequency? -------------

...

Hi Conrad,

My understanding is that the oscillating frequency is determined mainly by the coil inductance and the base resistance (I mean the 1 kOhm).
You have a pretty high permeability toroidal core with its A_L value of 6440nH/N², your coils inductance is L=N²*A_L=9*9*6.44=522uH (microhenry) for each one coil. This high inductance for the 9 turns means a high permeability core.
(Also, if you clip your scope probe directly to the base of the transistor (ground is on the emitter) and watch also the pulse frequency on the collector on the other scope channel, you will find the oscillation frequency slightly shifts for the probe 16-20pF capacitance too.)

So if you use a core with less A_L value (lower permeability) or you reduce the 9 turns to say 4 or 5, your frequency will go up.
Also, as Bill wrote try to change the 1 kOhm base resistance too.

rgds, Gyula

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gyulasun on April 13, 2010, 05:41:47 PM

Hi Jeanna and Bill,

I understand you work by practice and seeing the color of a toroidal core you can pretty much estimate its possible behavior in the joule thief.
While normally I agree with such practice I still wrote to Conrad he has a high permeability core...
He included the induction factor for his core, the A_L value, and it is a pretty high number. This means also high permeability because normally for a core with OD=16mm ID=9.6 and h=6.3 the nine turns usually does not give 522uH inductance.

Would like to show you a very handy program that includes helps on getting permeability and/or A_L from a know number of turns and the measured inductance for any unknown toroidal core. (you need the mechanical dimensions for the core too).

Here is the link: http://www.dl5swb.de/html/mini_ring_core_calculator.htm

Using this program, the permeability comes out as 10006 (ten thousand). In your practice with cores so far does this count as a low perm core? I think this to be a high value.

rgds, Gyula

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gyulasun on April 13, 2010, 06:23:40 PM

Hi Conrad and All,

I apologize if the following link has already been referred to here but I found it very practical and informative (and scientific) on joule thiefs:

http://watsonseblog.blogspot.com/2009/02/joule-thief-high-efficiency-01.html

Gyula

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 13, 2010, 07:30:17 PM

Gyula:

I had not seen that before. Thanks for posting it. The only thing I do not understand is that he said he wanted low permeability for his toroids and yet, I believe, most of us have had our best results with high perm.

I do not pretend to understand everything about the JT circuit, far from it. I just can't figure out why he wants low perm? Can you or anyone explain this?

Thanks,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 13, 2010, 08:19:01 PM

Quote from: gyulasun on April 13, 2010, 05:41:47 PM

Would like to show you a very handy program ...
Here is the link: http://www.dl5swb.de/html/mini_ring_core_calculator.htm

Using this program, the permeability comes out as 10006 (ten thousand). In your practice with cores so far does this count as a low perm core? I think this to be a high value.

rgds, Gyula

@Gyula,
Thank you.

I use linux and I have never used wine, but I do have an inductance meter which helps me.
I am sure this calculator will help many others.

About the permeability, Yes, 10,000 is high perm.
I have a 2 inch with 11,000u and 14,000u and the 14,000 is needed to get the same results as the 3 1/3 inch core with 11,000u.
I am sure Conrad's core is fine, too, but the blue covering sometimes makes it a choke and very low u.

@Conrad,
I actually think there is nothing wrong.
It is likely you need to 'tune' the turns.

I do not have the kind of scope you have, so what I have to say may not apply.
If I move to higher resolution I sometimes see a more detailed waveform and see that where I thought the frequency was 10Khz, it turns out to be 60Khz or even higher.
Maybe, something like that is happening there??

Please make a 10 turn pick-up winding and tell me what the volts and frequency are on the 10 turns?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on April 14, 2010, 05:45:19 AM

To Jeanna, Pirate88179, Gyulasun !

Great, your very detailed comments catapult me forward. Thank you very much, I appreciate your advice. A steep learning curve looms in front of me.

This software for amateur radio (Gyulasun posted it, http://www.dl5swb.de/html/software_for_amateur_radio.htm ) is very handy.

I have about six different toroids and some other Ferrite cores to experiment with. All goes forward so fast that I run low on LEDs, I am waiting for a bunch of blue and white LEDs to arrive.

Jeanna's light will soon glow near Vienna (Austria) and the multitudes will flock to it, or something like that ;) .

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gyulasun on April 14, 2010, 06:06:37 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on April 13, 2010, 07:30:17 PM
Gyula:

I had not seen that before. Thanks for posting it. The only thing I do not understand is that he said he wanted low permeability for his toroids and yet, I believe, most of us have had our best results with high perm.

I do not pretend to understand everything about the JT circuit, far from it. I just can't figure out why he wants low perm? Can you or anyone explain this?

Thanks,

Bill

Hi Bill,

My best guess on you question is Conrad connects his "low frequency" oscillation with his high permeability core and thinks using a lower perm core will increase the frequency. Somehow he thinks his 15kHz freq is a low value and that it is maybe a drawback. I think this is the simple reason. Now that he got pleanty of good answers, he will be ok sure. ;) :)

Thanks, Gyula

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 14, 2010, 10:31:12 PM

Gyula:

I think you may have misunderstood my post. I was talking about the guy in the blog link that you posted wanting low perm. not Conrad. Sorry if I was not clear.

But yes, I agree that the good folks here will share all of what they have learned to help Conrad, and anyone, work with these fascinating circuits.

Conrad:

When you get your lights shinning in Austria, post some photos. I'll bet that will be a beautiful site.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: forest on April 15, 2010, 01:59:57 AM

Could someone propose JT circuit which may replace neon sign transformer ? I mean a circuit which can produce a few kV output from low volts input (for example 9v battery) using toroid core with frequency not less then 20khz (30-50khz would be better) AND WITH additional pulsing t. The idea is to have kV DC pulsing output (using diodes) with variable and adjustable pulsing frequency set by POT on primary.
A nice small circuit able to charge HV capacitor.
Is that possible ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on April 15, 2010, 08:01:55 AM

Quote from: forest on April 15, 2010, 01:59:57 AM
Could someone propose JT circuit which may replace neon sign transformer ? I mean a circuit which can produce a few kV output from low volts input (for example 9v battery) using toroid core with frequency not less then 20khz (30-50khz would be better) AND WITH additional pulsing t. The idea is to have kV DC pulsing output (using diodes) with variable and adjustable pulsing frequency set by POT on primary.
A nice small circuit able to charge HV capacitor.
Is that possible ?

Forest

When I first started playing with 12V input for JTs I tried using a MOT ( microwave oven transformer ) for a JT coil

I have no idea how high the voltage was but it was up there .
When I smelled smoke I shut it down.
I later found that where ever my alligator clip leads crossed it had arked through the insulation.

Another way I have melted the insulation is by running the output of a fairly strong JT through a automotive ignition coil.
( in series with the load )
My first thoughts about this when I trid it ........ this thing is just plain mean ......... I burnt out a 90 LED array and fried a DMM in seconds.........so be careful

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gyulasun on April 15, 2010, 07:35:39 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on April 14, 2010, 10:31:12 PM
Gyula:

I think you may have misunderstood my post. I was talking about the guy in the blog link that you posted wanting low perm. not Conrad. Sorry if I was not clear.

But yes, I agree that the good folks here will share all of what they have learned to help Conrad, and anyone, work with these fascinating circuits.

Conrad:

When you get your lights shinning in Austria, post some photos. I'll bet that will be a beautiful site.

Bill

Bill, yes I misundertood you, sorry.

However I tried to find in Watson's blog link I gave where he wrote he had wanted low perm cores but I could not.

I read where he dealt with cores:

"This SJT used a toroid core from All Electronics, part number TOR-54. I put a single turn (piece of straight wire) through the hole in this core and it measured 0.08 uH (I measured several of them to get an average). This means it is a low permeability core, much lower than the usual ferrite RFI suppressor sleeves that I've used (compare that to the charcoal TOR-23 cores they sell, which have 0.48 uH per turn). It also means that I have to use more turns to get the inductance up to 100 uH."

If you may have thought about this part of the blog here I think he only concludes the TOR-23 has a low perm and this involves using more turns to get inductance up.

So I am puzzled where you mean his wanting the use of low perm cores, sorry for this.

rgds, Gyula

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 15, 2010, 09:02:57 PM

Quote from: gyulasun on April 15, 2010, 07:35:39 PM
Bill, yes I misundertood you, sorry.

However I tried to find in Watson's blog link I gave where he wrote he had wanted low perm cores but I could not.

I read where he dealt with cores:

"This SJT used a toroid core from All Electronics, part number TOR-54. I put a single turn (piece of straight wire) through the hole in this core and it measured 0.08 uH (I measured several of them to get an average). This means it is a low permeability core, much lower than the usual ferrite RFI suppressor sleeves that I've used (compare that to the charcoal TOR-23 cores they sell, which have 0.48 uH per turn). It also means that I have to use more turns to get the inductance up to 100 uH."

If you may have thought about this part of the blog here I think he only concludes the TOR-23 has a low perm and this involves using more turns to get inductance up.

So I am puzzled where you mean his wanting the use of low perm cores, sorry for this.

rgds, Gyula

It was this statement that led me to believe this:

"This means it is a low permeability core, much lower than the usual ferrite RFI suppressor sleeves that I've used (compare that to the charcoal TOR-23 cores they sell, which have 0.48 uH per turn). It also means that I have to use more turns to get the inductance up to 100 uH."

I might have misunderstood this comment but, it appeared to me he wanted a lower perm. Hey, I could be wrong, God knows it has happened before.

Bill ***EDIT*** In re-reading this for like the 4th time I see that I was not correct so, ignore my posts about this and my question. Sorry.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: detrix42 on April 15, 2010, 10:25:12 PM

@all:
Hello everyone. I have been trying to wrap my head around these joule thief circuits. I have built several. Recently I took a toroid from a motherboard and using 26awg wire, made primary and a secondary coils. Took me a while to get it right, but I got it. I can get about 45v out of it. Now what I am trying to wrap my head around is... How do I do anything (besides lighting diodes) useful with it. Anytime I try to add an electronic component to it, I kill the oscillations, or something like that. For example, I came across a piezo electric buzzer, needs 6v. I thought no problem for a joule thief, and in fact I did get some sound, but not very good. I also want to hook a joule thief to a larger transformer, but I am not sure how. Thanks in advance for all the help.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on April 16, 2010, 02:42:00 AM

Quote from: detrix42 on April 15, 2010, 10:25:12 PM
@all:
Hello everyone. I have been trying to wrap my head around these joule thief circuits. I have built several. Recently I took a toroid from a motherboard and using 26awg wire, made primary and a secondary coils. Took me a while to get it right, but I got it. I can get about 45v out of it. Now what I am trying to wrap my head around is... How do I do anything (besides lighting diodes) useful with it. Anytime I try to add an electronic component to it, I kill the oscillations, or something like that. For example, I came across a piezo electric buzzer, needs 6v. I thought no problem for a joule thief, and in fact I did get some sound, but not very good. I also want to hook a joule thief to a larger transformer, but I am not sure how. Thanks in advance for all the help.

Hi detrix,

Well what do you want to do with it? The basic JT circuit cannot produce high levels of DC current necessary for certain projects when powered from a single AA cell. What has been demonstrated is the high voltage short duration spikes produced from this type of circuit can power strings of LED's... see the work of Bill and Jeanna of what they have achieved. In saying that various other designs around the same circuit design principles have evolved to charge up Nicad and Lead Acid batteries. Even small DC motors have successfully been run. Rather than me explain in depth what can and can't be done take a look back over this thread to get some ideas and thoughts from the many who have posted excellent circuits and projects. If your not to sure about the technicalities don't be frightened to ask, but it's well worth gaining a good theoretical insight about the basic principles of how the circuit works. Once a sound knowledge and understanding has been gained, then they're be no stopping you. One last point I'll mention is... if you attempt to load the circuit with a device that needs more current draw than the secondary circuit can deliver the oscillations will diminish or even stop. LED's in particular are what's known as high impedance devices (their internal resistance to the flow of an electrical current is quite high for a give light output) so they present only a relatively small load on the circuit. BTW make sure you include a variable pott in the base circuit, this will enable you to "tune" the characteristics of the inductor circuit to achieve the best output pulses. Hope this helps. Regards.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: detrix42 on April 16, 2010, 09:54:11 AM

@crowclaw:
I have several working joule thief circuits, and have learned a lot. My desire is to run a Newman motor that I am building. I will need help in designing a JTC to deliver around 1000v. If you have not seen my videos yet here is a link to one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6qLiAeyPng

I am willing to use, say a 12v source. I just need to know what is a proper transistor to deliver 1000v. I have used a disposable camera's flash transformer to get up to 350v from a AA battery. Technically, I am not concerned about how much current there is. In a Newman motor, it is desired to keep the current as low as possible and the voltage high. Though the coil in the video link above is only about 50ohms, and that would try to pull way to much current from my current JTC setup. I have come across some bigger transformers, and want to use them. So the question is, what components (transistor mainly) do I need to go from 12v to what ever I can get out of one of these transformers I have?

Thanks for your input Crowclaw, it has me thinking.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on April 16, 2010, 11:16:01 AM

Quote from: detrix42 on April 16, 2010, 09:54:11 AM
@crowclaw:
I have several working joule thief circuits, and have learned a lot. My desire is to run a Newman motor that I am building. I will need help in designing a JTC to deliver around 1000v. If you have not seen my videos yet here is a link to one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6qLiAeyPng

I am willing to use, say a 12v source. I just need to know what is a proper transistor to deliver 1000v. I have used a disposable camera's flash transformer to get up to 350v from a AA battery. Technically, I am not concerned about how much current there is. In a Newman motor, it is desired to keep the current as low as possible and the voltage high. Though the coil in the video link above is only about 50ohms, and that would try to pull way to much current from my current JTC setup. I have come across some bigger transformers, and want to use them. So the question is, what components (transistor mainly) do I need to go from 12v to what ever I can get out of one of these transformers I have?

Thanks for your input Crowclaw, it has me thinking.

Hi detrix

OK You'll need a transistor that is well suited for high voltage pulse use, so go for one of the old TV scan output devices, many of these can cope with over 1200 volts VCE. There are many scrap TVs around since plasma and LCD sets have come along so take a look in disposal sights for an old set, older the better. The types you are after are BU208 or BU508 the "D" versions have an integral diode. Also older sets have usefull ferrite transformers to wind your coils with, or the line scan output transformer from a scrap TV could also be used. You will have to experiment with your base resistor value and I would use say 22R in series with a 1K pott for the base bias to "tune up" your circuit. Don't use laminated power type transformers as they tend to be OK for lower frequencies, you need to get fairly high frequency pulses. Be prepared to experiment to find the right voltage levels... you shouldn't have any problems otherwise; and with the right transformer the current draw should be within your spec. Let us know how you progress. Kind Regards

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on April 16, 2010, 11:19:16 AM

@ detrix,

The transistor types I have mentioned are just two fairly common devices, however there are many others that will be suitable for your project with similar spec's. Regards

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: forest on April 16, 2010, 02:56:34 PM

It should be possible to have JT generated 3kV from 4.5V input. I state that because I have now in my hand disassembled circuit from small ozone generator.Unfortunately it's all covered by epoxy resin :-(

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: detrix42 on April 16, 2010, 03:16:26 PM

Ok, I am in the process of removing the flyback transformer from a 32" american television. Due to the high voltage that this thing can generate, I would like someone from this tread to walk me through steps to hook up a joule thief output to this flyback transformer. I only want about 1000v for now. I am trying to look up the pinout but I am not gettng anything from google with the part numbers I am seeing. (TFL2AA002 from a panasonic tv).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: forest on April 16, 2010, 03:23:09 PM

Quote from: detrix42 on April 16, 2010, 03:16:26 PM
Ok, I am in the process of removing the flyback transformer from a 32" american television. Due to the high voltage that this thing can generate, I would like someone from this tread to walk me through steps to hook up a joule thief output to this flyback transformer. I only want about 1000v for now. I am trying to look up the pinout but I am not gettng anything from google with the part numbers I am seeing. (TFL2AA002 from a panasonic tv).

Hmm..that would be hard task because TV flyback likes to generate much more then 1000v :o

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: detrix42 on April 16, 2010, 03:38:13 PM

Quote from: forest on April 16, 2010, 03:23:09 PM
Hmm..that would be hard task because TV flyback likes to generate much more then 1000v :o

so your saying that if I hook up a JTC to a flyback transformer, I will get over 1000v??? From a AA batter no less??? wow.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on April 16, 2010, 04:03:01 PM

Quote from: detrix42 on April 16, 2010, 03:16:26 PM
Ok, I am in the process of removing the flyback transformer from a 32" american television. Due to the high voltage that this thing can generate, I would like someone from this tread to walk me through steps to hook up a joule thief output to this flyback transformer. I only want about 1000v for now. I am trying to look up the pinout but I am not gettng anything from google with the part numbers I am seeing. (TFL2AA002 from a panasonic tv).

Here is a simple way to figure the pinouts in the flyback. First, check all of the pins with your meter. The set of pins that give you the least resistance will be your primary. To find your seconday winding, you will need a 12VDC supply or whatever you have handy. 24 would be better. Connect the positive of the power supply to the high voltage wire, the red wire that attached to the picture tube. Connect the negative from the power supply to the negative lead on your battery. Now take the positive meter lead and test each pin on the flyback. You should have a voltage on only one of the leads. This will be the secondary winding. If you don't get a voltage reading, try reversing the + and - on the power supply. Some of the newer flybacks have a built in diode on the secondary winding.

To hook it up, joule thief style, use the primary winding and then wind a second coil on the flyback ferrite to feed back to the transistor.

This should either help you or totally confuse you. I hope it helped.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on April 16, 2010, 04:10:01 PM

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
To all experimenters who helped me (Jeanna, Pirate88179, Gyulasun, Crowclaw),
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

your efforts were not in vain, after some trial and error I got a JT which is nicely lighting up three red LEDs in a row. See the attached images and the scope shot (its now 3.5 KHz). The frequency depends a lot on the number of turns of L1. The fewer turns, the higher the frequency. My blue Toroid needs quite a lot of turns for L1 (10 turns, see the attached schematics).

The hint about the value of the resistor between L1 and the base of the transistor was very valuable, it needed 330 Ohm.

The circuit consumes about 20 Milliamps when lighting 3 red LEDs in a row. On the scope shot you see, that the duty cycle over the LEDs is quite short, I guess this explains the surprising low power consumption.

The circuit and the toroid are now ready for a third winding (on top of L1 and L2) in order to implement Jeanna's light, which I will attempt soon.

There are better Toroids than the blue painted one I am using, but I wanted to make it work with this one, before I move on to other cores.

I am thinking a lot about an air core coil and will do some experimenting in this direction. Specially with three windings (for Jeanna's light) I see (more like a blind man) a lot of potential in a coil without any core. I am very much influenced by the GBluer(Slayer) Exiter.

------------
To Detrix42:
------------

Once I am a bit more experienced with the JTs, I want the same as you, namely driving light tubes and the new energy saving bulbs. For this I am studdying the thread

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8977.0 ( GBluer(Slayer) Exiter )

Read the posts of slayer007 and watch his videos on YouTube.

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 16, 2010, 04:11:35 PM

Quote from: detrix42 on April 16, 2010, 03:38:13 PM
so your saying that if I hook up a JTC to a flyback transformer, I will get over 1000v??? From a AA batter no less??? wow.

If you use a Jeanna's Circuit, you can get over 2,000 volts output (or less if you want) using a simple TIP3055 transistor and running on a single AA battery!! No flyback coil needed. If you do use a flyback coil or car ignition coil, I would think you would have to rectify the JT's output as it will be a high frequency AC and not dc.

Less turns on the pick-up coil of the Jeanna's Light circuit will give you less voltage out and you can make it output whatever you need.

Lidmotor has a great schematic at the start of his video located here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11nzbi59T7w&playnext_from=TL&videos=TVF4g87eQFw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11nzbi59T7w&playnext_from=TL&videos=TVF4g87eQFw)

You can do a screen capture and blow it up, that is what I did. Jeanna has also posted her circuit here as well but I can't recall what page.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: detrix42 on April 16, 2010, 04:41:45 PM

ok, I found a schematic of the whole circuit board for the tv. I will include it here. I don't see where the High voltage wire that goes to the tube is. argh.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Sprocket on April 16, 2010, 06:11:23 PM

Quote from: detrix42 on April 16, 2010, 04:41:45 PM
ok, I found a schematic of the whole circuit board for the tv. I will include it here. I don't see where the High voltage wire that goes to the tube is. argh.

The pin marked "EHT". The standard o/p voltage from these babies is around 25k, after going through the 'tripler' - though it of course depends to your primary voltage...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: detrix42 on April 16, 2010, 07:34:18 PM

ok, ok. The Flyback transformer may be a bit overkill. I am considering it because I don't have access to a 3.5" toroid. I have a bunch of 1" toroids, and a couple of disposable camera flash transfromers. hmmmm. I still don't know how to use the output of the joule thief in my motor. My third motor's coils have a resistance of 1155ohms. This draws to much from my JTC. I plan on adding a lot more wire when funds allow.

So in the mean time, I would like to get the Flash transformer to lite a CFL. I think I can do this.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tysb3 on April 16, 2010, 09:34:16 PM

Hi detrix42
with soldering iron 60W you can remove rod from flyback transformer.
need to heat rod about 6-10 min (glue become soft), after carefuly release by knife.
maybe need heating twice or more

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on April 16, 2010, 11:07:01 PM

Quote from: detrix42 on April 16, 2010, 04:41:45 PM
ok, I found a schematic of the whole circuit board for the tv. I will include it here. I don't see where the High voltage wire that goes to the tube is. argh.

Detrix

you don't need a schematic to make a flyback coil work as a JT

Just check the continuity of all the pins.
The high voltage lead coming out of the top will probably have continuity with one or 2 pins..... this is your secondary.

you will probably find several pins that have continuity in a row.
These should be low resistance ....... these are your primarys.
Just connect your C , E and B+ to these pins and check for output
I do not know what kind of voltage these will put out...... my meter only goes up tp 600 V .....it is higher than that.

````````````````````````````````

SOmeone posted the standard connecrtions for flyback transformers on the JT thread.........it has been a while....... I have no idea how far back to look.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on April 16, 2010, 11:35:31 PM

Quote from: conradelektro on April 16, 2010, 04:10:01 PM
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am thinking a lot about an air core coil and will do some experimenting in this direction. Specially with three windings (for Jeanna's light) I see (more like a blind man) a lot of potential in a coil without any core. I am very much influenced by the GBluer(Slayer) Exiter.

conradelektro

Air core coils are no problem......in general you just need more wire than if you used a core.

It is possible to light a LED with only a twisted pair of wires.
From my experience the pair has to be at least 6 ft long.

It may seem meaningless to light a diode with just a wire.........below is such a JT .......only I have wrapped the wire a few turns around a toroid with a secondary .......it is driving a 90 LED array

Edit
When adding toroids in this manner you can use a shorter twisted pair........ if you add a few toroids you may not need any extra twisted pair other than for connecting ther toroids.

If you add too many toroids the inductance will choke the circuit...

```````````````````````````

I have also made a JT out of 150 ft of cat5 cable.
I used one pair as primary and connected the rest of the pairs in series as secondary.... it worked very well........but it was very large.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on April 17, 2010, 04:23:02 AM

To Resonanceman,

thank you for your hints on air coils, very interesting, I have to try the twisted wire. There is so much experience with JTs out there in this forum, great!

The following idea is going around in my head:

In order to keep the energy consumption of a Joule Thief down one should go for very short duty cycles over the LEDs (or any lamps one wants to light up). See the attached drawing.

Very short pulses, even spikes might be good, but with high frequency in the Megahertz.

This might best be achieved with a secondary which has no connection with the circuit (besides induction and resonance). As I see from other folks posts, the secondary was the big progress with the JTs.

And for high frequency the air coil comes into play because of its low inductance. It is also nice to get rid of the Toroid because good ones are hard to come by.

May be I am on the wrong track with the "duty cycles" and would like to hear comments from the master JT builders?

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on April 17, 2010, 11:34:03 AM

Quote from: detrix42 on April 16, 2010, 07:34:18 PM
ok, ok. The Flyback transformer may be a bit overkill. I am considering it because I don't have access to a 3.5" toroid. I have a bunch of 1" toroids, and a couple of disposable camera flash transfromers. hmmmm. I still don't know how to use the output of the joule thief in my motor. My third motor's coils have a resistance of 1155ohms. This draws to much from my JTC. I plan on adding a lot more wire when funds allow.

So in the mean time, I would like to get the Flash transformer to lite a CFL. I think I can do this.

Hi detrix,

The reason behind using scrap was to save buying materials just to experiment with of course, old scrap power supplies from computers can produce a wealth of goodies including toroid's, scrap AC motors will provide a useful source of copper wire for winding you coils. You can use the ferrite flyback transformers core to wind your own JT! theres so much electronic scrap sent to land fill that your projects could cost next to nothing. Have a good look around. How do you intend to transfer the JT's output to your motor coil, or are you considering using the coil as an integrated part of the JT circuit?... do you have a schematic for your project for me to look at should you need further help. Last point if you do use any of the flyback transformer windings be very careful of exposed connections!! you don't need EHT voltages

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on April 17, 2010, 12:12:39 PM

Quote from: conradelektro on April 17, 2010, 04:23:02 AM
To Resonanceman,

thank you for your hints on air coils, very interesting, I have to try the twisted wire. There is so much experience with JTs out there in this forum, great!

The following idea is going around in my head:

In order to keep the energy consumption of a Joule Thief down one should go for very short duty cycles over the LEDs (or any lamps one wants to light up). See the attached drawing.

Very short pulses, even spikes might be good, but with high frequency in the Megahertz.

This might best be achieved with a secondary which has no connection with the circuit (besides induction and resonance). As I see from other folks posts, the secondary was the big progress with the JTs.

And for high frequency the air coil comes into play because of its low inductance. It is also nice to get rid of the Toroid because good ones are hard to come by.

May be I am on the wrong track with the "duty cycles" and would like to hear comments from the master JT builders?

Greetings, Conrad

Hi Conrad,

To conserve battery power you must work on very short duration pulses, this is where the JT circuit scores. The longer the duty cycle the more current is drawn from your battery due to the longer conduction cycle of your output transistor. If you are still unclear on this let me know. If you progress into the MHz regions you may have trouble with your transistors upper frequency responce!! Most of the types used for JT circuits may struggle. Must point out should you experiment with circuits using antenna's or similar open loop circuits which are not using straight inductive power transfer techniques, you could end up transmitting powerful radio frequency interference across several broadcast bands and frowned upon by the authorities that monitor such things. Not one to dampen ones experimental challenges of course... just a friendly word of warning.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: detrix42 on April 17, 2010, 01:45:21 PM

Quote from: crowclaw on April 17, 2010, 11:34:03 AM
Hi detrix,

The reason behind using scrap was to save buying materials just to experiment with of course, old scrap power supplies from computers can produce a wealth of goodies including toroid's, scrap AC motors will provide a useful source of copper wire for winding you coils. You can use the ferrite flyback transformers core to wind your own JT! theres so much electronic scrap sent to land fill that your projects could cost next to nothing. Have a good look around. How do you intend to transfer the JT's output to your motor coil, or are you considering using the coil as an integrated part of the JT circuit?... do you have a schematic for your project for me to look at should you need further help. Last point if you do use any of the flyback transformer windings be very careful of exposed connections!! you don't need EHT voltages

A friend of mine dropped off lots of electronic scrap. Even a reel-to-reel tape player. I have not gutted it yet. There were also several decent sized transformers. I like recycling electronic parts.

This was my original question. I am not sure how to transfer the power of the joule thief to my motor. Even if I do make a JTC similar to Jeanna's Light with 300 turns in the secondary, I don't think I can hook it directly to my motor. My motor needs DC. And at startup I need the voltage for about 2 seconds. Once up and running, I only need the voltage for milliseconds. I am believing the JTC may not be capable of drive my motor, at least not yet. Once I have enough wire, where the resistance is high enough to not draw so much currrent from the joule thief, then a JTC might work.

Here is a simple schematic of my motor setup. This may not explain it very well. sorry.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on April 17, 2010, 03:00:47 PM

Quote from: detrix42 on April 17, 2010, 01:45:21 PM

I don't think I can hook it directly to my motor. My motor needs DC. And at start up I need the voltage for about 2 seconds. Once up and running, I only need the voltage for milliseconds. I am believing the JTC may not be capable of drive my motor, at least not yet. Once I have enough wire, where the resistance is high enough to not draw so much current from the joule thief, then a JTC might work.

Here is a simple schematic of my motor setup. This may not explain it very well. sorry.

Hi detrix,
Hmmmnn!! what is the total DC resistance of your coil(s) that the HV supply will appear across. I presume the 2 second period is at start up before the motor gains momentum and the rev's increase? wow this is some project!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 17, 2010, 03:17:47 PM

Detrex:

Some of us have run Bedini motors from our JT's. I have read about Newman motors but do not really understand how they are supposed to work.

It may be possible to dump the ac spikes from the JT into a very large Farad cap (I have used two 10 farad caps and later a 650 farad cap for this purpose) which will convert (or appear to convert) the spikes into usable power for your motor. Now if you need to rectify it before the cap or not, I do not really know. I didn't have to with the Bedini but, as I said, I am not sure what your motor really needs.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on April 17, 2010, 05:10:37 PM

Quote from: conradelektro on April 17, 2010, 04:23:02 AM
To Resonanceman,

thank you for your hints on air coils, very interesting, I have to try the twisted wire. There is so much experience with JTs out there in this forum, great!

The following idea is going around in my head:

In order to keep the energy consumption of a Joule Thief down one should go for very short duty cycles over the LEDs (or any lamps one wants to light up). See the attached drawing.

Very short pulses, even spikes might be good, but with high frequency in the Megahertz.

This might best be achieved with a secondary which has no connection with the circuit (besides induction and resonance). As I see from other folks posts, the secondary was the big progress with the JTs.

And for high frequency the air coil comes into play because of its low inductance. It is also nice to get rid of the Toroid because good ones are hard to come by.

May be I am on the wrong track with the "duty cycles" and would like to hear comments from the master JT builders?

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on April 17, 2010, 05:11:29 PM

@ detrix

I have taken a look at your video and I go with Bill on this, storing the DC charge is the issue here. What is the current draw to run your motor with your present set up? You need 1000 volts!! so you need some hefty caps that have to be both charged and be capable of delivering their charge within your time frame. We need to know what current demand is required at your target voltage to get an idea of what can be the best approach.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on April 17, 2010, 05:14:08 PM

Quote from: conradelektro on April 17, 2010, 04:23:02 AM
To Resonanceman,

thank you for your hints on air coils, very interesting, I have to try the twisted wire. There is so much experience with JTs out there in this forum, great!

The following idea is going around in my head:

In order to keep the energy consumption of a Joule Thief down one should go for very short duty cycles over the LEDs (or any lamps one wants to light up). See the attached drawing.

Very short pulses, even spikes might be good, but with high frequency in the Megahertz.

This might best be achieved with a secondary which has no connection with the circuit (besides induction and resonance). As I see from other folks posts, the secondary was the big progress with the JTs.

And for high frequency the air coil comes into play because of its low inductance. It is also nice to get rid of the Toroid because good ones are hard to come by.

May be I am on the wrong track with the "duty cycles" and would like to hear comments from the master JT builders?

Greetings, Conrad

conradelektro

I think you are on the right track with the your duty cycle ideas......

The JT isn't good at making " normal " electricity.

It is good at making spikes......

These spikes are what Tesla was using in many of his experments.
Tesla often talked about disruptive discharge..... we have an easier way to make the spikes.........or impulses.

In my opinion we need to focus more on how to effectively use the spikes........and how to transform the spikes into " normal " electricity.
So far using the spikes to charge a battery seems to be the most practical way to go.

gary

Edit

About the frequency........ It is true that a JT running at Mhz speeds would be able to create alot more power than a slower JT.
The problem is RF transmition. ....... The higher the frequency ........or the power ......the more ANY wire will tend to act as a transmitting antenna. ......... I don't know about you....but I don't like the idea of the FCC knocking on my door.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 17, 2010, 07:58:01 PM

Gary:

So, that is who those people were that were knocking on my door.... ha ha. (Just kidding) But, you are exactly right. If we get up into the higher freqs who knows what disturbances we might be making? This is always a good thing to keep in mind. Telling the FCC that we had no idea this was happening is probably not enough to keep out of trouble.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on April 17, 2010, 08:19:11 PM

Here is a great application for a Jule Thief. Your battery is dead in your auto. You hit the I shouldnt of left the headlights on switch. The julethief charges up an auxiillary bank of series connected supercaps from your dead battery. Initial current surge to your starter motor is what does the trick. After the initial surge the resistance of the copper chokes off the current due to conductor heating. Unless the motor is revolving and some counter rotating magnetic field generation to drop off the current levels needed from the battery its a case of diminishing returns and out comes the triple a card.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: detrix42 on April 18, 2010, 12:08:30 AM

Quote from: crowclaw on April 17, 2010, 05:11:29 PM
@ detrix

I have taken a look at your video and I go with Bill on this, storing the DC charge is the issue here. What is the current draw to run your motor with your present set up? You need 1000 volts!! so you need some hefty caps that have to be both charged and be capable of delivering their charge within your time frame. We need to know what current demand is required at your target voltage to get an idea of what can be the best approach.

I really appreciate the help. First, the schematic below was suggested to me by Jadaro2600, and I think this is what you are suggesting I need.

The second schematic show how I now have it. Just a slight difference. For the Cap on the right, I have tried several sizes -- 68uF, 330uF.

Joseph Newman's theory: The magnetic field in a inductor/coil, is the result of aligning the atoms in the wire. Voltage is the force that is aligning the atoms, not current. There are three ways of generating larger magnetic fields. Add more voltage, or add more atoms/wire, or both.

Joseph Newman's first motor consisted of over 4000lbs of copper wire. With this much copper wire, only 1 1/2 watts of power (I think he said there was about 60+ volts), was needed to turn a 600lb magnet!!!!

I am on my third build. The first one has been disassembled, to use the wire on motor #3. I have been using some of the wire from build #2 to make Joule Thiefs, and recently rebuilt #2 to show a friend, but I don't plan on keeping it. Currently, the coils on #3 have a total DC resistance of 1155ohms. Each pound of 30awg wire is about 700ohms. What I am trying to prove with my motor, is whether or not Newman is correct about only needing voltage. So a high voltage should get motor #3 really spinning. I will accept any help to get 500v or more. Once I start adding more wire, I should be fine with less than 1000v. But I do want to know how to get 1000+ out of any of the transformers I have.

Again Thanks for all the help.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: detrix42 on April 18, 2010, 12:14:21 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on April 17, 2010, 03:17:47 PM
Detrex:

Some of us have run Bedini motors from our JT's. I have read about Newman motors but do not really understand how they are supposed to work.

It may be possible to dump the ac spikes from the JT into a very large Farad cap (I have used two 10 farad caps and later a 650 farad cap for this purpose) which will convert (or appear to convert) the spikes into usable power for your motor. Now if you need to rectify it before the cap or not, I do not really know. I didn't have to with the Bedini but, as I said, I am not sure what your motor really needs.

Bill

@Pirate: How long does it take to charge up the 650 farad cap? or the 10 farad cap? And how much does a 10 farad 500v supercap cost?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: zhak on April 19, 2010, 02:27:35 PM

Hello everyone ..
new design of my lamp JT (lamp stands for point lights), in fact, he shines so much better when there is no substitute for light paraffin candle at 200%.
This can give or sell ! :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 19, 2010, 04:08:11 PM

zhak:

Nicely done.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on April 19, 2010, 07:57:47 PM

Quote from: detrix42 on April 17, 2010, 01:45:21 PM
My motor needs DC. And at startup I need the voltage for about 2 seconds. Once up and running, I only need the voltage for milliseconds. I am believing the JTC may not be capable of drive my motor, at least not yet.

detrix

I was thinking if you want to see if a JT can run your motor why not cheat a little.....
What did you power your first machines with?

I am thinking that a small high voltage power supply could be used to charge a cap or something....... This little high voltage power supply could then be turned off once your motor is up to speed.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: detrix42 on April 19, 2010, 11:41:02 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on April 19, 2010, 07:57:47 PM
detrix

I was thinking if you want to see if a JT can run your motor why not cheat a little.....
What did you power your first machines with?

I am thinking that a small high voltage power supply could be used to charge a cap or something....... This little high voltage power supply could then be turned off once your motor is up to speed.

gary

Hi Gary, I have gotten a joule thief up to 350+v. But how to charge up a large cap fast enough has been my issue. I am trying to get the oscillations of the joule thief into another LARGER transformer. A friend dropped of lots of electronics junk, and among that, there was several larger transformers. I tried to get the oscillations of the joule thief into one of them today. Not happening. I can take the AA battery and tap on the primary coil, and see a fluctuation in the output/secondary. But the pulse from a joule thief don't seem to doing anything. I still have a few ideas to try, tomorrow.

But getting a large cap charged up by starting with a high voltage power supply, and then turning it off when its up and running sounds interesting. I have been using a bunch of 9v batteries to get high voltage. Thanks for your help. Please keep it coming.

Detrix

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 21, 2010, 03:03:10 PM

@ All:

I have not had much time to experiment lately but, I have been trying to get a new project going and it looks like I will need some advice from you all.

I got a good deal on some very nice solar garden lights ($3.00 US ea.) which have a very nice rechargeable AA battery inside, a really nice solar cell and a photocell to turn the circuit off in the daylight.

They are not that bright but do burn all night long. So, yes, you guessed it, I decided to take one apart in order to see about using the good old JT circuit to run several larger, brighter leds.

Well, I took it apart and it has a very tiny led. (clear) I have never seen one this small. There is no computer chip or transformer inside, just a few resistors mounted on a small circuit board. So, I tested the output of the battery at 1.2 volts and then the output at the led and it was 1.1 volts. Evidently, this small led will light and run on only 1.1 volts and lower.

The only other device inside is the photo diode on/off switch for detecting sunlight. There is a round blob of dark gray material on the circuit board that covers several traces on the board. I have scratched this material with a jeweler's screwdriver and, it is hard, but I have no idea what it is or why it is on the board. It is not a glue as far as I can see and it is not holding anything at all. This wouldn't be some blob of silicon making a crude type of transistor would it?

I have to leave to go out of town on a job in a few minutes but, when I get back, I will take and post some photos of the project so you can see what I am up against.

The lights do have a cool reflector for the led very similar to my hand crank lantern. The led shines down from the top and the light is dispersed 360 degrees around out all of the sides from a parabolic type of mirrored reflector. I think I can fit a small JT inside the case along with 2 super bright large (10mm) leds which will make the output about 10 times as bright as it is now.

I guess I'll just scrap the circuit board and use a JT and the photo diode. I have been thinking about this for a while but seem to have a mental block on how to wire the JT, photo cell, and the battery.

Photos to come,

Thanks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 21, 2010, 03:49:38 PM

Had a few minutes so here are some photos:

You can see the gray blob in the first photo. There are no transistors or chips or transformers inside. This is it.

What do you think?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: IotaYodi on April 21, 2010, 03:55:57 PM

QuoteThis wouldn't be some blob of silicon making a crude type of transistor would it?

Could it be some type of heat sink?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 21, 2010, 04:07:43 PM

Quote from: IotaYodi on April 21, 2010, 03:55:57 PM
Could it be some type of heat sink?

Do you mean something poured over a transistor? This bump is only about .060" high off the board, not enough room to cover a chip or transistor I think. Also, nothing on the other side of it on the board. This really has me puzzled because it took time to place that there and, since these are made in China, I am sure there is nothing in there that is not needed. It intersects with all of the traces on the board, hard to see that in the photos, sorry.

Your thought is a good one if they used some kind of very small, low profile chip. Something like that might be buried under there.

***EDIT*** If there was a chip or something under there, we would see solder pins or something on the other side of the board right? Nothing there at all.

Thanks,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nul-points on April 21, 2010, 04:17:48 PM

hi Bill

i think you'll find that there's a surface-mount chip (so no thro' holes!) under the blob - fairly standard practice for mass-produced low-cost boards

all the best
sandy

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on April 21, 2010, 07:29:02 PM

Quote from: detrix42 on April 19, 2010, 11:41:02 PM
Hi Gary, I have gotten a joule thief up to 350+v. But how to charge up a large cap fast enough has been my issue. I am trying to get the oscillations of the joule thief into another LARGER transformer. A friend dropped of lots of electronics junk, and among that, there was several larger transformers. I tried to get the oscillations of the joule thief into one of them today. Not happening. I can take the AA battery and tap on the primary coil, and see a fluctuation in the output/secondary. But the pulse from a joule thief don't seem to doing anything. I still have a few ideas to try, tomorrow.

But getting a large cap charged up by starting with a high voltage power supply, and then turning it off when its up and running sounds interesting. I have been using a bunch of 9v batteries to get high voltage. Thanks for your help. Please keep it coming.

Detrix

Detrix

From my experience a transformer that is to large acts like a choke...... you need a stronger JT or a smaller transformer.

precharging a cap may have some benifits.
JTs like high impedance....... charging a cap from zero starts out looking like a dead short to the JT
Charging the cap to at least 3/4 of the JT voltage would allow the JT to have a fairly high impedance load

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 21, 2010, 09:24:32 PM

Quote from: nul-points on April 21, 2010, 04:17:48 PM
hi Bill

i think you'll find that there's a surface-mount chip (so no thro' holes!) under the blob - fairly standard practice for mass-produced low-cost boards

all the best
sandy

Sandy:

Thanks for the tip. Boy, it would have to be a really small chip to fit under there but, if this is the case, it would make sense. Otherwise, why even have a board? There are only 2 resistors mounted on the board and I guess you would not need to use a board just for that.

Thanks,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on April 21, 2010, 10:52:52 PM

captain bill
the big green one is a inductor
and those transistors are covered in plastic
most cases there is two transistors and a resistor and or a small cap..
they cover them in plastic because the old solar lights the rain would kill the transistor till it dried out..
and the reason you don't see solder points is because that pcb is two layered and if you hold it up to the light
you can see the copper traces between layers

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 21, 2010, 11:41:12 PM

Robbie:

Thank you very much! This is good to know. I thought this was going to be easy, just stick a JT in there and light it very bright. Your advice, and the others, now gives me a direction to go. I will post the results when completed.

Bill

***EDIT*** This just proves once again that, the more I learn and the more I THINK I know, the more there is to learn.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on April 21, 2010, 11:57:01 PM

captain bill
if you want me too i will take a pic of a old solar light.. that has all the componets above a one layer board
i got a (AAA battery ) solar light thats has one led in it.. and the componets are two inductors and one transistor one resistor , a cap and one led then a cds cell.. and one diode from the solar cell.. it runs from 8-10 hours at night all depends on the good sun light it get during the day

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 22, 2010, 12:04:15 AM

Robbie:

Yes, I would like to see that pic. I just find it hard to believe (although I do) that any important components could be hidden under this "blob". It is about 1/4" in dia. and maybe .060" in height. I have not yet checked for the double board as you have mentioned, but I will hold it up to the light as you suggested.

As I said from the outset, the Chinese are pretty good at making cheap devices and, if that blob was not required, it would not be there.

The solar cell on these lights seems to be a good one. Heck, the rechargeable battery alone is almost worth the cost of the light. Then, there is that cool reflector/diffuser. So, when I get done, this light will be bright and still work on a single AA battery. That led is so tiny, I have not seen one that small before. I have already modified the housing to accept a 10mm super bright led.

Thanks for your help Robbie, I really appreciate it.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on April 22, 2010, 12:33:34 AM

captian bill
here is a photo of the upside if you need a schematic i can draw one up tomorrow..
let me know

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on April 22, 2010, 06:08:04 AM

Captain Bill, congrats on the promotion...hope there wasn't any 'plank walking' involved in the process.

That 'blob' may be shielding a tiny cap.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on April 24, 2010, 09:27:28 AM

The blob could be a current control device. Allowing for a smooth output voltage so that load is even no matter the state of the battery charge. Most of these chips internally are either all on or all off with the duty cycle adjusted by the load requirements. The choppy ouput is then filtered using internal components to whatever degree of dc is required by the load.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 24, 2010, 09:55:25 AM

Sparks:

This sounds very plausible. I really think this blob is not tall enough to be hiding any chip or cap or any other electronic component. What you are saying is that the blob itself is a component which would make sense in that all of the board traces are connected to it.

Thanks for the input.

Cap:

It is about time I got a promotion. Too bad it does not include a pay raise, ha ha.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: mscoffman on April 24, 2010, 02:13:36 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on April 24, 2010, 09:55:25 AM
Sparks:

This sounds very plausible. I really think this blob is not tall enough to be hiding any chip or cap or any other electronic component. What you are saying is that the blob itself is a component which would make sense in that all of the board traces are connected to it.

Thanks for the input.

Cap:

It is about time I got a promotion. Too bad it does not include a pay raise, ha ha.

Bill

@All

Usually those blobs cover a silicon IC chip of some type, directly wire
bonded, most likely to through-board metal clasps. One can buy the
silicon die for slightly less then the cost of a pre-packaged IC for very
inexpensive electronics devices such as this. Pressure welded wires,
then a glob of epoxy adhesive is put over the top sealing the silicon
chip directly to the circuit board.

Most likely the IC uses the solarcell output to detect when to turn the
Led on after dark, as there are so few other components... I'm sorry, I
do see a photoresistor in the picture.

Unfortunately, in my experience these inexpensive lawn lights use
very inexpensive defective compromised solarcells with abnormally
low optical efficiency levels. Your mileage may vary, but it seems
like the name brand manufacture has been using the same
compromised solar cell production lines for years so that their
customers don't get any "ideas". If you find some that are
great, please let us know. (should be in the 7%->20% wattage
efficiency range)

These lawn lights could very much use a JT switcher, but in my
experience are straight DC and very inexpensive to manufacture.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: detrix42 on April 24, 2010, 02:39:31 PM

@all: I need some help here. I do not have an oscilloscope, and so I can't do this my self. I would like to know exactly what is necessary, component wise, to get a joule thief to oscillate at 174,926Hz. Or let me know if this is even possible. Thanks for any help.

Detrix42

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 24, 2010, 04:50:21 PM

Quote from: detrix42 on April 24, 2010, 02:39:31 PM
@all: I need some help here. I do not have an oscilloscope, and so I can't do this my self. I would like to know exactly what is necessary, component wise, to get a joule thief to oscillate at 174,926Hz. Or let me know if this is even possible. Thanks for any help.

Detrix42

Go to allelectronics and get the Tor-23
That is what is necessary, by the way. It mostly is limited by the toroid.

When you get it, wind a center tapped wind with 5 on 1 side and 8 on the other side of the center (which is the part to connect to the pos of the battery.) I assume you are familiar with most of this. If you are not sure, please ask more q's.
Connect the outside end of the side with 5 Turns to the base resistor (in this case the 5k pot) , and the side with 8 T to the collector.

Use a 5K pot and tune the pot first to 1k which should give you around 50khz, then raise it.
You do not necessarily need to raise it much.
I had these numbers with a 2N3904, and I think the 2N2222 might be better for this, so get a couple of those while at allelectronics too.

I got 203khz when I was working with my multiple secondaries circuit and using the tor-23, so you might read my posts and look at the drawings from the thread called AC from a joule thief (or something like that) and also take a look at the 6 or 7 videos I made about that circuit.

I do not believe anyone can tell you exactly what you will get because the transistor you have will be different from others, but if you slowly sweep the 5k pot or 10k you will find what you want.

I had about 85 turns of 30 gauge wire and managed to get 85v and I might have had enough room for 95 or 105 turns, but you need 164 spiky volts to turn on a neon, so you will only get about half enough to turn on a neon with this core.

You might get a tor-61 while you are ordering. It has the same cross sectional area with a bigger radius so you can fit more turns, but I have not yet seen over 70khz. (but I wasn't trying either, so try one.)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 24, 2010, 07:38:11 PM

@ detrix42

Quote from: detrix42 on April 24, 2010, 02:39:31 PM
@all: I need some help here. I do not have an oscilloscope, and so I can't do this my self. I would like to know exactly what is necessary, component wise, to get a joule thief to oscillate at 174,926Hz. Or let me know if this is even possible. A for any help.

Detrix42

It is not possible. The JT frequency shifts with battery voltage, temperature, and load. Perhaps if you use it in a temperature stabilized oven with a voltage regulated power supply it would be stable after running for a long enough time to temperature stabilize. But, I doubt it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on April 24, 2010, 08:10:03 PM

Quote from: detrix42 on April 24, 2010, 02:39:31 PM
@all: I need some help here. I do not have an oscilloscope, and so I can't do this my self. I would like to know exactly what is necessary, component wise, to get a joule thief to oscillate at 174,926Hz. Or let me know if this is even possible. Thanks for any help.

Detrix42

If you want to just use it for testing, the easiest way would be to use a signal generator on the base of the transistor. I don't think you will be able to get the exact frequency unless you use a very expensive generator. If it works out, you could then built a simple little generator circuit to give you the frequency. To get the most output out of the toroid, you would need to wind the secondary to get the resonant frequency of 174,926Hz. You would probably be better off using a MOSFET for this.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: detrix42 on April 24, 2010, 08:35:46 PM

Thanks Jeanna, Xee, and Mr. Mag. I guess I will have to purchase a frequency counter, some day.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on April 24, 2010, 09:15:00 PM

Quote from: MrMag on April 24, 2010, 08:10:03 PM
If you want to just use it for testing, the easiest way would be to use a signal generator on the base of the transistor. I don't think you will be able to get the exact frequency unless you use a very expensive generator. If it works out, you could then built a simple little generator circuit to give you the frequency. To get the most output out of the toroid, you would need to wind the secondary to get the resonant frequency of 174,926Hz. You would probably be better off using a MOSFET for this.

i agree mosfet and freq genny !

is the easyest way and not a jt ... just use 1 wire .... !

just 1 wire ..

ist !
you may find a digital multi meter like i have that reads freq! they work really well i have a expencive true rms meter and it will not read as well as my cheep one wich was not cheep it was 90 bucks .. but my good one was almost 300 bucks .. o scope is best it cost me 100 bucks .. and it is old as old can be ...

: )

can i ask why you want exactally 175 khz... why not 180 .. or just smack a neo ... : ) ; )
i made a video a long time ago ... playing with 180khz ... then i showed 2 tricks .. 1 was negitive grounding through the human body and the other was positive antanna action .. intresting my spikes grew big with neg .. and even bigger when i did the pos thing...

: )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYNEn8llXeU

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: detrix42 on April 24, 2010, 11:13:10 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on April 24, 2010, 09:15:00 PM
can i ask why you want exactally 175 khz... why not 180 .. or just smack a neo ... : ) ; )

I have been doing some research in the TPU thread. This is supposedly the natural frequency of Earth's magnetic field. I thought if you tuned a JTC to 175KHz, this would resonate with Earth's magnetic field and use Earth's magnetic field to generate more electricity. I have taken the core out of a flyback transformer, and want to tune a JTC to 175kHz with it, and see if I get any extra juice. ;)

Detrix42

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on April 25, 2010, 12:22:37 AM

@Detrix42,
May I recommend a scope?
Mine may not be very good for posting pictures but it is flexible, portable and very handy, and at $180 it has more than paid for itself in helping me get the answers I need.
A freq gen will not give you as much information because all you are doing is controlling what you put in. The real information comes from learning what you are making (at least that is what I think. ;) )

It was because I had my scope hooked to the secondary wires while I tuned the resistor that we all learned that when the voltage goes one way the frequency goes the other, at least in a joule thief.

Anyway I bought a HPS10 by velleman, and I recommend it.
You can spend a little more and get a back light so your pics will look good.

That and an induction meter really did the trick for me.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on April 25, 2010, 01:47:28 AM

Quote from: detrix42 on April 24, 2010, 11:13:10 PM
I have been doing some research in the TPU thread. This is supposedly the natural frequency of Earth's magnetic field. I thought if you tuned a JTC to 175KHz, this would resonate with Earth's magnetic field and use Earth's magnetic field to generate more electricity. I have taken the core out of a flyback transformer, and want to tune a JTC to 175kHz with it, and see if I get any extra juice. ;)

Detrix42

: )

well you dont want to tune right in .. as it will blow .. a freq genny at 180 and a magnet .. on the core probally do the same ... OR YOU CAN HIT ANY HARMONIC YOU CHOOSE .. ; )

if you buy a scope .. for god sakes get an OLD ANALOG ONE ... try for 50 mhz min .. dual trace ..

: )

ist!

@ j i didnt need a meter to see the MOT has a short fat wire and a long skinny one .... : ) lol

is it a 2 part fly back core ... i was thinking of maybe building a syncotron but putting magnets between the out side and putting a pancake on the inside split .. then jt the 2 half cores... but so they BUCK THE MAGENT at 175....

like this

11111 m = magnets like poles forced togather
1 1
m pancake
m pancake
1 1
11111

the more i think about this is this ... first you pulse the pancake a few times .. you recover from the flyback core to a cap that powers the jt wound on the core ... ; )

so then when your jt's are running at high voltage and pushing back you pull from the place you energized the device from .. a device like this requires a jt that runs with gain ... that means low low ma draw high high spikes ... long wire ... and a short fat one .. : )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tysb3 on April 28, 2010, 05:52:00 PM

hi,
@ Pirate88179

Qx5252 same as JD1803

http://pdfaz.com/download/qx5252-5106270.html

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=zh-CN&u=http://search.china.alibaba.com/selloffer/k-JD1803%25B2%25DD%25C6%25BA%25B5%25C6IC_n-y.html&ei=qoXYS4adK4T4sgPatNSdBg&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CBkQ7gEwBDhG&prev=/search%3Fq%3Djd1803%26start%3D70%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox%26rlz%3D1I7ADBS_en

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: detrix42 on April 29, 2010, 02:29:19 PM

Hi, everyone. Just wanted to show off a little project I did for my wife. She had a tin that she wanted used to build a joule thief flashlight. Just a little show and tell. Nothing special here, just wanted to show it off. ;D

Detrix42

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: mscoffman on April 29, 2010, 06:04:18 PM

Quote from: detrix42 on April 24, 2010, 02:39:31 PM
@all: I need some help here. I do not have an oscilloscope, and so I can't do this my self. I would like to know exactly what is necessary, component wise, to get a joule thief to oscillate at 174,926Hz. Or let me know if this is even possible. Thanks for any help.

Detrix42

Get a JT that can operate at slightly over this frequency. Then
get a quartz crystal cut for this frequency. Attach the crystal
leads to various points in the JT untill it locks in. Make sure you
are not "stepping" on anyone during its use.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: giantkiller on April 30, 2010, 04:35:58 PM

The blob is correctly term 'ASIC' application specific integrated circuit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on April 30, 2010, 04:40:00 PM

Quote from: mscoffman on April 29, 2010, 06:04:18 PM
Get a JT that can operate at slightly over this frequency. Then
get a quartz crystal cut for this frequency. Attach the crystal
leads to various points in the JT untill it locks in. Make sure you
are not "stepping" on anyone during its use.

:S:MarkSCoffman

What is so important about the freq 174926hz? Can someone tell me please?
Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: detrix42 on April 30, 2010, 05:08:27 PM

Quote from: guruji on April 30, 2010, 04:40:00 PM
What is so important about the freq 174926hz? Can someone tell me please?
Thanks

I am reading the research on another thread: the one on the TPU which is a "Toroidal Power Unit". On that thread, there is mention that 174926Hz is the resonant frequency of Earth's magnetic field. I thought that if I could get a joule thief to oscillate at that frequency, there may be a change of getting Earth's magnetic field to add to what's going on in a joule thief. But due to further reading, there may be more to it....But I want to try with just that frequency to see what happens.

Detrix42

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: mscoffman on April 30, 2010, 07:35:27 PM

Quote from: giantkiller on April 30, 2010, 04:35:58 PM
The blob is correctly term 'ASIC' application specific integrated circuit.

Disagree, or can't tell. ASIC means the company that manufactures the light
specifically designed the IC for that particular light's function.

It simply starts out as a "bare die" meaning it has no epoxy package often it's
passivated - a silicon dioxide coating designed to keep oxygen away from the
chip. For example the ROM in a video game is sometimes installed this way yet
that doesn't make it an ASIC. But a proprietary ROM.

They are talking about the China Inc. IC JD1803 above. Yield; 1M units per month.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: giantkiller on April 30, 2010, 09:21:06 PM

Remove the blob to expose the silicon die. That means there are very fine gold leads from the board to the die connecting plates or areas. With out the protective blob the microfine connections would be damaged. In business all things put in place are reasonable.
A rom is an IC. A resistor ladder on ceramic is an IC. A bare die serves no purpose. What is on the boards is an etched die. Silicon circuits are not effected operationally by air except to remove thermal build up. ASICs perform a specific product function whether logic, data or analog process.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: mscoffman on April 30, 2010, 09:52:13 PM

Quote from: giantkiller on April 30, 2010, 09:21:06 PM
Remove the blob to expose the silicon die. That means there are very fine gold leads from the board to the die connecting plates or areas. With out the protective blob the microfine connections would be damaged. In business all things put in place are reasonable.
A rom is an IC. A resistor ladder on ceramic is an IC. A bare die serves no purpose. What is on the boards is an etched die. Silicon circuits are not effected operationally by air except to remove thermal build up. ASICs perform a specific product function whether logic, data or analog process.

According to Wikipedia; Under Waffer Slicing;

'These will be packaged in a suitable package or placed directly on a printed circuit board substrate as a "bare die".'

Those motors are ASIC's because commercial motors often require factory
custom made semiconductors.

Those pictures are of ASIC's mounted as "bare die".

Think again, giantkiller you don't know much..Don't argue with me, argue with Wikipedia!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on April 30, 2010, 10:41:57 PM

hey how many french men to screw in a light bulb ..

answer 1001 ..

1 to hold the bulb the other 1000 to turn the house ..

ist!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: giantkiller on April 30, 2010, 10:56:01 PM

2 finlanders are ice fishing, eh? A snowmobiler flies by on the lake. FL1 asks FL2 'Eh, du yoo know wat day are duin?'. FL2 responses 'Trolling, eh!'

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on April 30, 2010, 11:15:06 PM

Quote from: giantkiller on April 30, 2010, 10:56:01 PM
2 finlanders are ice fishing, eh? A snowmobiler flies by on the lake. FL1 asks FL2 'Eh, du yoo know wat day are duin?'. FL2 responses 'Trolling, eh!'

they must be brudders eh !

lol

too funny gk too funny !

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on May 01, 2010, 12:28:34 AM

whats up guys and gals..
i was wondering whats is the best circuit for a transformer with two leads going in on the primany 1-9 volts..
i got the push and pull right now the pnp and npn transistors together.. i was wondering if there is a better and lower draw circuit to use..
hey check.. this i bought two cheap-o- stun guns at the flea market and modded them for a lower current draw and of course a lower output.. but if you hook them in reverse on the outputs and tap in to it you get some some crazy kool output power..weird thing is it seems to be dc volts
but i got them for 10$ each and there rechargable.. i just got them for parts..but i am having to much fun with them..
already zapped myself.. but thats alright my life is limited anyway..

let me know

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on May 01, 2010, 07:52:47 AM

Quote from: kooler on May 01, 2010, 12:28:34 AM
whats up guys and gals..
i was wondering whats is the best circuit for a transformer with two leads going in on the primany 1-9 volts..
i got the push and pull right now the pnp and npn transistors together.. i was wondering if there is a better and lower draw circuit to use..
hey check.. this i bought two cheap-o- stun guns at the flea market and modded them for a lower current draw and of course a lower output.. but if you hook them in reverse on the outputs and tap in to it you get some some crazy kool output power..weird thing is it seems to be dc volts
but i got them for 10$ each and there rechargable.. i just got them for parts..but i am having to much fun with them..
already zapped myself.. but thats alright my life is limited anyway..

let me know

robbie

i got a few dummies you can use it on kooler !

: )

william

i hear gay boy talking about my pnp npn unit ... calling it his own too...

i have a thred age old bout it ... : ) none the less ! it is in the TPU SECTION

joule thief the same as a pulse motor ... hummmmmm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on May 01, 2010, 07:59:32 AM

:) Hello everyone ! I have'nt been on this forum for quite a while, but i'm posting my results of my
home-made JT-mains power supply (with dimmer control) for LED light bulbs.

Here is the pictures of it, the LED light bulb is an Australian 240v mains powered 20x LED light bulb.

It is lit just as bright with my JT-mains power supply as if it was plugged into the 240v mains !

I can now sucessfully make one or two of these JT-mains power supplies for each room of my house
and then charge then up by a solar panel outside when needed.

Each JT-mains power supply will last about 4 days at 4 hours per night (5pm to 9pm)...
with 2x AA equalling about 2.5-2.6v at 2500 mA approx.
It will still work fairly good even when 2xAA's run down to a total of around 1.2v

If I want it to last much longer, I just add more AA's for more amps in my JT-mains power supply.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Flux4Energizer on May 01, 2010, 11:07:00 AM

Very nice build freepow :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on May 01, 2010, 05:51:37 PM

To freepow!

I like your Joule Thief black out wall socket.

Would you mind sharing your circuit?

There seems to be a transformer next to the toroid?

How many turns have your windings on the toroid? Which transistor did you use (value of base resistor)?

I am trying to build a similar thing. After some unsuccessful attempts my circuit reaches about 320 Volts on a secondary. But this is not enough to light up a 5 Watt fluorescent lamp or the little tube taken from a 5 Watt CFL. Attached is a photo of the toroid giving 320 Volts from a single AAA Battery which must have at least 1 Volt (base coil 4 turns, collector coil 20 turns and the secondary has about 6 meters of 0,3 mm enamelled wire; basic joule thief circuit, base resistor 200 Ohm, transistor 2N3055). Also attached the photo of three small neon lamps in series (about 320 Volts).

Twenty to thirty white LEDs in series are no problem, I can do that with an air coil (base coil 20 turns, collector coil 100 turns and a secondary with about 450 turns, wound on a plastic tube with 25 mm diameter; all three coils are wound in the same sense on top of each other; gives about 120 Volts on the secondary; basic joule thief circuit). I use a full bridge rectifier after the secondary which makes the LEDs shine a little brighter.

20 LEDs shining brightly with an air coil is a nice achievement, but I want to light up small fluorescent tubes and the small tubes from CFLs, just to show that it can be done with an AAA battery, but I have not yet succeeded. Coming up with an air coil or a toroid for this purpose is tricky.

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on May 02, 2010, 03:04:23 AM

There is no transformer, only a 1.5" toroid x2 with around 120-140 turns on secondary, A used is a 2n3055 which I considor a good choice, and anyway I have lit a 4 watt 240v fluoro also a 5 watt cfl with components pulled out of it ! But they dony light any where as good a this 20x LED bulb, its very bright, I only need possibly 1 of these lights per room, I like the 20x LED bulb because I can just put it in my lamp and plug into my JT-power supply and be off the grid (lights only) at this stage !

My total volts on 2x AA which has around 2.5-3v , I get around 850-1050v, 3x AA = around 1100-1200v,
I will stick to 2x AA, maby add more more amps and then my light will last up to 2 weeks with more AA's
That means I only have to charge my box every 2 weeks !
Our electricity is going up 70% over next 1-3 years !!!
So best to light my house for free off the greedy grid!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cherryman on May 02, 2010, 06:40:18 AM

Quote from: freepow on May 02, 2010, 03:04:23 AM
There is no transformer, only a 1.5" toroid x2 with around 120-140 turns on secondary, A used is a 2n3055 which I considor a good choice, and anyway I have lit a 4 watt 240v fluoro also a 5 watt cfl with components pulled out of it ! But they dony light any where as good a this 20x LED bulb, its very bright, I only need possibly 1 of these lights per room, I like the 20x LED bulb because I can just put it in my lamp and plug into my JT-power supply and be off the grid (lights only) at this stage !

My total volts on 2x AA which has around 2.5-3v , I get around 850-1050v, 3x AA = around 1100-1200v,
I will stick to 2x AA, maby add more more amps and then my light will last up to 2 weeks with more AA's
That means I only have to charge my box every 2 weeks !
Our electricity is going up 70% over next 1-3 years !!!
So best to light my house for free off the greedy grid!

Congratulations!

You made a perfect example of how the open source research here on this forum and the internet can result in a usable device!

Good job!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: giantkiller on May 02, 2010, 10:35:36 AM

Mankind can only take the smallest of steps. The members that take the largest steps are misunderstood or condemned for their efforts.
After 895 pages a transformer is missing? But a toroid is in place? This is the same circuit since page 1.

Retard is good term. That means a retry of tardiness. Obviously the shoelaces are tied together in this leg of the race. It is a fast race of running harder and faster, not better.

But the answer has come back around. So therefor if someone is stealing your work of copying it over and over then the original inventor can not be found. Kind of like a safety feature. Spread it out so thin that those who oppose have no trail.
The noobs get a chance to experience for the first time the exhultation of getting results of seeing a pattern happen over and over again by others who had the grace and mercy of the fore builders. I don't recall getting any bad vibes from copying Telsa's patents. But look at the attention it garnered? For me for a short time but a reamplification of Tesla's work into the history books and again.

Everyone should get the opportunity to travel down this path on their own reconnaissance.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on May 02, 2010, 11:48:38 AM

here is one of my LATEST JT'S ITS HISSING AND SINGING ... and it hurts if you touch it ...

runs on a DEAD 12VOLT...

ist

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0Gwr4-mCSg

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on May 03, 2010, 03:07:42 PM

Quote from: freepow on May 02, 2010, 03:04:23 AM
There is no A, only a 1.5" toroid x2 with around 120-140 turns on secondary, A used is a 2n3055 which I considor a good choice, and anyway I have lit a 4 watt 240v fluoro also a 5 watt cfl with components pulled out of it ! But they dony light any where as good a this 20x LED bulb, its very bright, I only need possibly 1 of these lights per room, I like the 20x LED bulb because I can just put it in my lamp and plug into my JT-power supply and be off the grid (lights only) at this stage !

My total volts on 2x AA which has around 2.5-3v , I get around 850-1050v, 3x AA = around 1100-1200v,
I will stick to 2x AA, maby add more more amps and then my light will last up to 2 weeks with more AA's
That means I only have to charge my box every 2 weeks !
Our electricity is going up 70% over next 1-3 years !!!
So best to light my house for free off the greedy grid!

Hi Freepow very bright led bulb interesting about that circuit. With one toroid is not enough why did you use two? I had build one with a 1" on slayer circuit and it gives high voltage too.
Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on May 03, 2010, 10:30:48 PM

Hello Guruji, I too have lit a number of LED's on one toroid as well, but for these particular-
20xLED light-bulb I need high volts, they have some components inside the bulb, they are designed for Australian mains power, I can power it with one toroid and 1xAA, but the light is then not really that bright, but adding 2 toroids and having 2xAA's it really lights very bright all 20 LED's, so I can then have a decent light for each room !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 03, 2010, 11:43:59 PM

@ freepow:

Maybe try raising the freq. as leds seem to like to light on high freq. with little or no power. Anyway, that has been my experience. I have lit 400 leds on a single AA battery.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on May 04, 2010, 12:05:24 AM

@ Pirate88179

How Do I raise the freq.???

I am using a 1k variable resistor, it works brightest at almost lowest setting !

Also were your 400 LED's all at their brightest???

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 04, 2010, 12:14:10 AM

The freq. depends on many variables, a lot of which I do not fully understand. Core permeability, wire dia. number of turns, transistor specs, etc. My 400 leds were as bright as if I plugged then into the wall for which they were designed. I do not know exactly what freq. my jt was operating at but probably somewhere around 30 khz or so give or take. Many others have exceeded what I have done so it might be interesting to see what freqs they were working at.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on May 04, 2010, 12:44:01 AM

Sorry for all these questions but are those 400 of yours xmas lights?
are they those 20,000mcd LED's (which are blinding bright) ?
my 20x in the bulb are blinding bright

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 04, 2010, 01:04:00 AM

@ freepow:

Hey, questions are fine. They were Christmas light stings of 100 leds each times 4. No, they were not ultrabright leds but 5mm "regular" led light bulbs. They were designed to run from 120 volt grid power and I was amazed that I could light them all from a single AA battery and later, my EER (earth battery) outside.

I could have never done any of this without using what I have learned here on this forum. Hopefully, I can beat this later with additional experiments. If not, someone else will.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on May 04, 2010, 06:14:36 AM

Hi guruji !

Attached please see my basic Joule Thief circuit and the Toroid I used. This gives me about 400 Volt from an 1.5 Volt AAA battery (just barely lighting a small 4 Watt 220 Volt fluorescent tube). The power consumption is still very modest, about 90 mA on average.

You wrote that you got high voltage with a 1" toroid and a Slayer circuit.

Could you please post the Slayer circuit you used and the exact windings on your 1" toroid and how much voltage you got.

I rather agree with freepow that it takes a fairly big toroid (which then can have a high Al value of e.g. 10.000 nH/N2) in order to reach about 1000 Volts from a 1.5 Volt battery.

If a Slayer type circuit can do about 1000 Volts with a small toroid (with an Al value smaller than e.g. 3000 nH/N2), I would be very much interested in learning the details.

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on May 04, 2010, 08:32:32 AM

the best i have been able to get is 700v from a gold mine 1" useing a basic jt configuration .. meaning equal length coils ..

the secondary was really fine wire .. many turns

first you need to tune the core material ..

you can do this by starting at a 6 turn jt .. and removeing turns till highest voltage is seen on 1 turn secondary .. then you have tuned to the best working range for the core ..

the best i have found is 2 to 4 turn jt .. this will yeild about 4 to 7 vdc per turn of secondary wire ..

after the best results are attained for your core .. you can then add as many turn secondary as you desire .. KEEPING THE TUNED JT

IST

eg .. say you find that 4 turns yeilds 6 volts .. if you now dubble the other wire length .. or use teslas method for 1/4 wave ...

your results should be better ... as you just tuned to the core for best results then you dubbled the best and it is your delay line ..

so 4 turns .. and the second wire is 8 turns and if you multi lap it .. IT BECOMES MY HF CONVERTOR ..

: )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on May 04, 2010, 09:46:26 AM

To innovation_station !

Thank you for your very helpful reply, that clears up my recent experiments and offers a nice way to check my toroids. Will try to get a bit more out of my 1" toroid than 400 Volt, may be closer to the 700 Volt you mentioned. I do indeed have too many turns on L1 and L2. Some bigger toroids are on the way to me, but I want to get to the limits of each toroid type I have.

I would like to take advantage of your presence in this forum and dare to pose questions concerning air coils for a Joule Thief (since I am an inexperienced hobbyist and you seem to be a master of electronic wizzardtry):

Lately I have played with some air coils. See attached pictures and the following specifications:

Air Coil A (see specification next to the circuit, rather complicated attempt):
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
50 to 70 Volt on L3, 58 KHz
18 Volt over collector emitter
power consumption 40 mA (for 14 white LEDs)
transistor 2N3904 , base resistor 100 to 220 Ohm

Air coil B900 (the one on the photo):
-----------------------------------
160 Volt over small neon lamp on L3, 27 KHz
27 Volt over collector emitter
power consumption 60 mA on average (for small neon lamp, see attached scope shot)
transistor 2N3055 , base resistor 100 to 220 Ohm

L1 - first layer - 20 turns
enamelled copper wire 0,8 mm ~ AWG20
20 x 0,8 = 16 mm, 1 row

L2 - second layer - 90 turns
enamelled copper wire 0,3 mm ~ AWG28
45 x 0,3 ~ 16 mm, 2 rows

L3 - outermost layer - 900 turns
enamelled copper wire 0,3 mm ~ AWG28
45 x 0,3 ~ 16 mm, 20 rows

Now my questions:

1) Do you have a nice recipe for air coils (in connection with a Joule Thief)? I like air coils because one can build them from cardboard and wire salvaged from obsolete transformers or motors.

2) Is it true, that one can attain a higher frequency with an air coil in comparison to the frequency when using a toroid?

(I do not talk about a Slayer type coil and the Slayer circuit, still staying with the basic Joule Thief circuit. Later I want to progress to other circuits, but not now, because I do not yet understand the Joule Thief circuit well enough.)

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on May 04, 2010, 10:57:16 AM

i have found with air core coils ..

the bobbin makes a HUGE DIFF!

THANKS FOR YOUR KIND WORDS CONRAD!

this is true as if you look back to the formulas for electro magnetics .. and examine the pancake coil ..

it is thin this creates a much stronger electro feild ..

so basically use a min 1" center as i have seen .. and thin maybe 3 turns .. then back and forth till spool is full bifillar min .. diffrent gages same length ..

hit it 12vdc use 3055 and 270 ohm .. with a 1 " center i have reached extream voltages and it shoots plasma .. useing 22 gage and 26 gage with the wire length of 38 to 40 feet ..

secondary does not matter .. the longer the higher the voltage .. the more the draw from source the bigger the BITE ! : )

peace and all expairmenters keep up the great work !

ist

feel free to ask any questions you wish .. if i can answer truthfully i will so .. if i can not i wont !

: )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: giantkiller on May 04, 2010, 01:56:08 PM

Yes, the bobbin creates a pancake but with depth like concentric canisters.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on May 04, 2010, 01:57:03 PM

To innovation-station !

Thank you for your air coil revelations, that helps me to see what I did wrong. Today I am learning a lot!

Just to make sure that I got it right, please see the attached drawing. Is this what you meant?

Can I slide the bifilar L1+L2 over the secondary L3 or is it better to wind L1+L2 directly on the secondary L3 (and such keeping the distance to a minimum) ?

Should the rather short L1+L2 be at one end of the long secondary L3 (like the pancake coil on a Tesla-Coil) ?

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on May 04, 2010, 03:43:22 PM

Hi Conrad I am posting you the slayer circuit but even with one transistor a 2n3055 would reach 1000v. It depends on base windings. Try to play with base and collector windings; there are spots which give very high voltage. If you do a capacitor with a pot to a resistor on the base as Gadgetmall used to do would be better too.
Enjoy.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on May 04, 2010, 03:50:13 PM

the drawing is what i have termed a basic ali coil ..

yes all seams correct in your drawing .. if you shorten your spool to 6 turns 3 turns bifillar you will increase magnet strength and i think depending upon the freq .. of the coil you could move the collector .. or secondary or incorperate larger ring loops

this may be possible ... to tune the jt to the proper resonant of the reciever rings BASED UPON SIZE ... and perhaps harmonics of the same ..

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on May 04, 2010, 04:28:54 PM

Thank you all for your help (innovation_station, guruji, giantkiller)!

It will take me some days to digest and to implement the inspiration received and I will report back with my results.

A few weeks ago a first round of advice in this forum taught me how to build basic Joule Thieves up to 400 Volt and today I got jumpstarted beyond that.

May the Kilovolts jolt my slow brains to a higher level of thinking!

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 04, 2010, 05:55:51 PM

Conrad:

IST is right about tuning to your toroid. Very important to do so. I believe Jeanna used a 1" goldmine and got over 1,000 volts just to show that it could be done on a smaller toroid. I don't think she used the Slayer circuit, but, it was a while ago and maybe she did. The more turns on the pick-up coil, the better. Even on my large toroids I have usually around 330 turns give or take.

Best of luck and keep up your great experiments. We all still have much we can learn about these circuits I believe.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on May 04, 2010, 06:17:03 PM

Quote from: conradelektro on May 04, 2010, 04:28:54 PM
Thank you all for your help (innovation_station, guruji, giantkiller)!

It will take me some days to digest and to implement the inspiration received and I will report back with my results.

A few weeks ago a first round of advice in this forum taught me how to build basic Joule Thieves up to 400 Volt and today I got jumpstarted beyond that.

May the Kilovolts jolt my slow brains to a higher level of thinking! : )

Greetings, Conrad

love the 1 liner ! just awesome ! great luck and hope to see your effords !

william

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on May 05, 2010, 06:40:47 AM

Hello, can anyone give me some advice please!

I have a 1.5" toroid with secondary of 120-140t, gives about 400-600v only, with 1xAA. I only am able to put around 150t on the secondary with (bif 2,10t).
If I used even finer wire and wound double the amount of turns, would that give me much more volts??
Question...Should I be able to get around 1000v with 1xAA on a 1.5" toroid?? and if so, could someone suggest how many turns to try, or if I should try a very fine wire and have 300-400t for the secondary etc.
thanks.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 05, 2010, 12:36:50 PM

freepow:

There are still more variables to account for in your circuit. What transistor are you using? What value is your base resistor? Plus, the wire gauges do make a difference as well.

But, having said this, your output is really pretty good when you think about it. That also brings up another question, how are you measuring the output? DMM's have real problems with this measurements because of the high freqs. involved. In other words, you may very well have more output than you think.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 05, 2010, 06:23:09 PM

It's been a while since I posted any pics so this is one of the projects I have been working on. Sorry you cant see the 5 leds blinking...the camera cannot pick it up! T

The red wire has a washer that is picking up 60hz out of the lamp that is not turned on and the yellow is going to ground on my power supply that is not turned on.

I have tried the wall that works good too.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 05, 2010, 09:42:02 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 05, 2010, 12:36:50 PM
freepow:

There are still more variables to account for in your circuit. What transistor are you using? What value is your base resistor? Plus, the wire gauges do make a difference as well.

But, having said this, your output is really pretty good when you think about it. That also brings up another question, how are you measuring the output? DMM's have real problems with this measurements because of the high freqs. involved. In other words, you may very well have more output than you think.

Bill

From what I have been reading a major variable is the circuit capacitance ...... lower capacitance makes a faster circuit.

If you have good impulses ....... I would say you do have more power than you think.
The impulses may have very high voltage that will not show up on a DMM and maybe not even on a scope.

Even using a bridge and measuring the DC is not accurate
I have measured 6 volts across a bridge.......but I was still able to charge a 12 V battery with that setup.

We still have no good way to measure the power of the
impulses.... the only practical way to be sure if you can power something is to try it.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on May 06, 2010, 04:31:51 AM

To stprue !

I would very much like to understand what you are trying to achieve with your setup (washer on a lamp, wire to ground, 5 blinking LEDs), but how can one get anything out of your photos and your message without seeing the circuit you came up with?

Your message is an example for hundreds of messages in this forum which are equally puzzling.

May be you do not want to show your circuit (for whatever reason)? Then, why talking about it in riddles?

May be it is too much work for you to draw the circuit? Then, why sending the message?

I do not attack you (although it may sound like that), but I question very much the usefullness of such messages in this forum. Going through hundreds of messages in order to learn something, I get quite annoyed by such habits of many members.

I speak out about the last message of stprue, but I could give many examples and many names where posting happens in the same little helpful way. There are also hundreds (if not thousands) of similar YouTube videos pointed to in posts, which litterally show nothing.

"Look what I have got, but I do not bother to tell you what it is." Are we at this level of conversing?

Do not missunderstand me! Everybody can do as she/he pleases, I just question and comment on the usefullness of certain ways. I have no right to criticise or to teach certain ways of behaviour, but I dare to say what I think and feel when reading a message.

Electronics is about connecting electronic and electric components in a certain way, most often referred to as == CIRCUIT == described by help of == SCHEMATICS == . And it is very important to know which components were used (exact specifications).

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on May 06, 2010, 06:40:21 AM

all

I finally completed my last joule thief coil ...

I will try a basic jt Conrad.

See you everyone !

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8878.msg240452#new

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 06, 2010, 09:22:06 AM

[A author=conradelektro link=topic=6123.msg240440#msg240440 date=1273134711]
To stprue !

I would very much like to understand what you are trying to achieve with your setup (washer on a lamp, wire to ground, 5 blinking LEDs), but how can one get anything out of your photos and your message without seeing the circuit you came up with?

Your message is an example for hundreds of messages in this forum which are equally puzzling.

May be you do not want to show your circuit (for whatever reason)? Then, why talking about it in riddles?

May be it is too much work for you to draw the circuit? Then, why sending the message?

I do not attack you (although it may sound like that), but I question very much the usefullness of such messages in this forum. Going through hundreds of messages in order to learn something, I get quite annoyed by such habits of many members.

I speak out about the last message of stprue, but I could give many examples and many names where posting happens in the same little helpful way. There are also hundreds (if not thousands) of similar YouTube videos pointed to in posts, which litterally show nothing.

"Look what I have got, but I do not bother to tell you what it is." Are we at this level of conversing?

Do not missunderstand me! Everybody can do as she/he pleases, I just question and comment on the usefullness of certain ways. I have no right to criticise or to teach certain ways of behaviour, but I dare to say what I think and feel when reading a message.

Electronics is about connecting electronic and electric components in a certain way, most often referred to as == CIRCUIT == described by help of == SCHEMATICS == . And it is very important to know which components were used (exact specifications).

Greetings, Conrad
[/quote]

@ conrad
I will not take your reply in a negitive way. The point of this circuit is that it can run on less that a volt and has a draw of about 5uA. What I am showing is that it can run off a ground connection and a weak inductive effect from a light that is not turned on. As for the circuit diagram...well that was posted 50 or 60 pages back by Kooler so there was no point for me to go looking for it and reposting it. I felt my post was pretty straightforward...maybe short but I have read all of this topic so I tend to skip over some details. I have also a ways back post a video on youtube on how it is hooked up. I see that you do not have many posts so maybe reading more of the topic would help you understand more as you can observe peoples progression.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on May 06, 2010, 10:16:02 AM

Ist you are number ONE , maybe if tried to make sense :-*

You claim to have invented the kick , it is a physical reaction it was there before you or any of of your incarnation and you be there past your bed time.

You must know first hand what you are taking about , i can see the damage it has done to your mental health , i will think twice before trying it .

lol

You are really making money out of your stuff , stolen money from well meaning people ... I know why you begged me to build you a OU devise ...
Those interested in a little bit of truth will enjoy this .

http://projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18212

I still have all the proof to convince anyone , i got the recordings of all hour Skype Talk , yep it is quite easy to know you since you can't stop talking about your self , i got you crying like a baby when when you learned about your Bros , well you know ...
When you can't stop bragging about your self and how smart you are and how people are stupid , that is the first one so funny 15.42 sec of ist i got 8 words in . I wanted to make sure i got any technical detail right , but there is only barging.

I got you asking me what i tough of the pictures you made , and you proceed to explain you don't really want to show how you do it , and also you claiming that you can stop anyone from patenting , many people seen that same speech here , Gadget incident comes to mind.

I still preferred you before you became Tesla or W for that mater .

You are pathetic but funny , if you really have something to say then do so or shut up .

You contradict your self often , it shows that you are still learning , but obviously you invented everything , so i bet it would even work better in-closed in aluminum hum maybe i will use hard drive plates , thank for making me have a great idea ;D...

Now please stop spewing shit for all your holes .

So if you have anything nice or helpful to say do , or keep it to your self .

I do admit you are entertaining , but respect others , i don't really care for how you treat me .

You will always be my special boy .j ::)

In the end i know what you look like your full name seen your picture , know where you live , now one more detail , you have nothing on me , not even a real name 8) .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on May 06, 2010, 10:30:33 AM

http://www.borderlands.com/newstuff/research/teslahaa.htm

You did not invent haarp ...

And by the way i like girls so it really makes me laugh , i beginning so see why you Girl is gone , hum i see not the right equipment hers or yours Midget .

Ok tell anything you have on me , you are bluffing .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on May 06, 2010, 10:48:31 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on May 06, 2010, 10:30:33 AM
http://www.borderlands.com/newstuff/research/teslahaa.htm

You did not invent haarp ...

And by the way i like girls so it really makes me laugh , i beginning so see why you Girl is gone , hum i see not the right equipment hers or yours Midget .

Ok tell anything you have on me , you are bluffing .

what you fail to understand .. is simply this ... the world follows my every word in the GREATEST OF DETAILS ... and thats just your world ... its a BIG PLACE OUT THERE ....

hummmmm

ist

that being said im sure there teams that do not show there face ...

; ) : P

but what ever build as you will ... if you get hurt from the effects of your coil ... do not wine and complain .. as you were FORE WARNED

and if death is a result of your coil how will you feel ?

as i said i perfer a core ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on May 06, 2010, 11:13:56 AM

what i dont understand about humans .. is this .. when there is cold fusion .. why piss around with junk ...

the damm thing makes gold ...

lol

litterly ..

: )

ist
and if you were really smart .. you would USE THE NEO ZAP ! DUH! lol then magically quench the plasma spark gap that is under water ...

hummmmm

but .. your windeing coils that take a life time to make ...

who's good for a laugh ? lol lol

care to talk about how this works ...

IT USES MY KICK ...

: )

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on May 06, 2010, 12:25:15 PM

@ist

Ist do ask CD if he had to chance to tell me anything (in the easy to understand category you are still better ) he wanted to work with me but never did sorry , just to show how much you know , but you are saying what ? I am doing what he is doing ? Plus for the patent only morons come here with that intent , it dose show your real face .Sorry but unlike you my end game is have fun and hopefully help others , not patents they are all yours , but i am not sure everyone would be as kind or understanding of your sickness.

Now i know why you build all coils others show you , and do not care to finish it ever , and always claiming everything as your own , and sucking up to newbies , and commenting on how great your team is and including everyone .

You are manufacturing proof that it was your idea , that is why you are always so confident in your attacks , and mindlessly seeking everything , but it would take a pretty deluded Judge to give the win to RA. ::) Or Tesla . That would really look good at the hearing ::)

Anyway that was fun , at least someone is saying the truth :-X

Ist to be able to claim the kick you would have to be the creator of physic's , unless you are god , stop being an ASS .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on May 06, 2010, 02:13:06 PM

i cant be bothered with you mk1

so if there real people reading that already cought a clue ...

may i sedjust a MERCURY switch ...

: )

ist

now how may i wiggle that switch at a high rate of speed so i dont need a transistor ...

hummmmm

and here you are mk1 still trying to figure out my work .. and running backward to do so !
and even then .. you fail to gain the correct understanding ... and what do you do .. but complicate this simple device !

lol

why not throw some more transistors in it ! lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on May 06, 2010, 05:31:20 PM

Ist

You have very weak arguments , insults are not arguments , well not in your favor anyway ... ::)

Now i know you don't live in the real world , you live in a pretend world , your views number on you youtube and your treads are not that good , sorry ::)

Some may have found useful the magnet to raise the freq , of the circuit beyond the capability of the circuit , because that is reason others have noticed .

Sorry again but you did not figure this one out , it was show in a video from Kubikop i posted over one year ago , so it may look interesting to others because it is , but you did not invent that .

You have a really short memory ... i don't .

You are so bad at arguing when you are wrong , more and more people are seeing you for what you are , and i don't mean Tesla.

That is it, for today .

Come on keep insulting me :-*

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on May 06, 2010, 06:27:21 PM

ill just laugh at your stupidy !

ist

lol

does anyone think a motor can be used as a transistor .. as a replacement

perhaps one could harvest from the motor coils to ADD to the jt input .. just a 1.5 volt motor

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 06, 2010, 11:22:24 PM

Hi all,

Just thought I might throw my ore in here and pass you all an idea I just had, and maybe it will settle the forum down a bit.

Has anyone ever made a Joule Thief using a copper wire and a Iron (uninsulated) wire as the bifilar windings?

Has anyone used just iron wire as the secondary windings? (use insulated garden tie wire)

I was thinking the extra iron of the iron wire should add to the magnetic fields produced in the toroid's, thereby making a higher magnetic field when energised, upon collapsing, it should give out a higher energy!

If you wind "over" the top of a previous bifilar winding, then you will need to insulate the layer beneath it with tape to prevent short circuits.

jim

2599 = just one of my coils of tiny iron insulated wire.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on May 06, 2010, 11:53:31 PM

Quote from: electricme on May 06, 2010, 11:22:24 PM
Hi all,

Just thought I might throw my ore in here and pass you all an idea I just had, and maybe it will settle the forum down a bit.

Has anyone ever made a Joule Thief using a copper wire and a Iron (uninsulated) wire as the bifilar windings?

Has anyone used just iron wire as the secondary windings? (use insulated garden tie wire)

I was thinking the extra iron of the iron wire should add to the magnetic fields produced in the toroid's, thereby making a higher magnetic field when energised, upon collapsing, it should give out a higher energy!

If you wind "over" the top of a previous bifilar winding, then you will need to insulate the layer beneath it with tape to prevent short circuits.

jim

2599 = just one of my coils of tiny iron insulated wire.

i once done a secondary winding with steel wire that was insulated over a ferrite toroid it cut the noise of the toroid down a bit but it give a lower volt output.. and lowered the feq alot.. but didn't change the input draw..

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 07, 2010, 02:14:59 AM

@ Kooler,

Now thats interresting, it is for me anyway, cuttting the rf noise down is something thats needs doiing, and you noticed the current draw wasn't affected with your JT. Actually your reply has given me one of the answers I have been looking for in the Stubblefield forum, and that is frequency.
Iron is more resistant to electrons than copper, and it seems to retain its magnetism for a short time after power is removed, depending on the type of iron used, it now seems to me it is used for the frequency control also, might be a valuable key.

Thanks Robbie.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hartiberlin on May 07, 2010, 02:56:17 AM

@innovation_station

Please stop insulting other people and only
post in your own threads.

Otherwise I will set you on read only again.

Many thanks for your understanding.

Regards, Stefan.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hartiberlin on May 07, 2010, 03:03:41 AM

Quote from: electricme on May 06, 2010, 11:22:24 PM
Hi all,

Just thought I might throw my ore in here and pass you all an idea I just had, and maybe it will settle the forum down a bit.

Has anyone ever made a Joule Thief using a copper wire and a Iron (uninsulated) wire as the bifilar windings?

Has anyone used just iron wire as the secondary windings? (use insulated garden tie wire)

I was thinking the extra iron of the iron wire should add to the magnetic fields produced in the toroid's, thereby making a higher magnetic field when energised, upon collapsing, it should give out a higher energy!

If you wind "over" the top of a previous bifilar winding, then you will need to insulate the layer beneath it with tape to prevent short circuits.

jim

2599 = just one of my coils of tiny iron insulated wire.

If you build a coil out of iron wire,
it will have NO inductive Kickback BackEMF !

Just try to pulse it with square waves or pulse waves
and you will see it.

It seems the magnetic field of an iron coil is different
than a copper coil.

Also you can move the heat from the pulsing via a permanent magnet
on the coil to a different area of the coil.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 07, 2010, 04:05:38 AM

@ hartiberlin,

Hello Stefan and thanks.
Up to a point, if you as you say a single coil out of iron wire, this is why stubblefield coils are wound using copper and iron bifilar wires.

Quote from: hartiberlin on May 07, 2010, 03:03:41 AM
If you build a coil out of iron wire,
it will have NO inductive Kickback BackEMF !

Just try to pulse it with square waves or pulse waves
and you will see it.

It seems the magnetic field of an iron coil is different
than a copper coil.

Also you can move the heat from the pulsing via a permanent magnet
on the coil to a different area of the coil.

I have pulced a transformer with square waves which produces heat, (which I want) to fit into a oil collum heater, but you need to connect 2 iron cored transformers primeries in series or the heat is runaway and the cores fry.

BTW, lasersaber is getting success running a small electricmotor only by his stubblefield coil, there is no other electrical power supply.
Click here to see a youtube video of it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHPKSdRRPCQ we are working together on this on the Stubblefield forum.

Thank you for the info about drawing heat away from a coil with a permanent magnet, good info this.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 07, 2010, 04:07:07 AM

Stefan:

That was what I was thinking as well. It would seem to me that the iron would hold the residual magnetic field too long to have any real spike or kick to it. This would be for the same reason we use ferrite toroids on JT circuits and not iron toroids. I believe we need the magnetic field to collapse almost instantly to get the really high bmf spikes.

Anyway, I have not tried what Jim was speaking of so I don't really know but, what you are saying would make sense.

But, Jim also suggested using bifilar with both iron and copper wire and this might introduce something new into the equation ala the Stubblefield coil effects. When I get some time, I might whip one up just to see for myself what might happen there.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 07, 2010, 05:41:02 AM

@ Jim and Stefan:

I stand corrected with the thoughts in my previous post. Lidmotor just did a video using iron wire wound in a core to make a JT circuit.

Here is the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7v4vTrQFYk&playnext_from=TL&videos=TNMSSTOxpQA&feature=sub (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7v4vTrQFYk&playnext_from=TL&videos=TNMSSTOxpQA&feature=sub)

He said it works well. He even ran an SEC from the JT circuit that had only the iron wire as a toroid. He also used the iron wire as conductors in the circuit as well.

Man, just when I think I am learning something, I find out I am wrong. How this works I do not know. It should not, but it does.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on May 07, 2010, 11:48:02 AM

Quote from: hartiberlin on May 07, 2010, 03:03:41 AM
If you build a coil out of iron wire, it will have NO inductive Kickback BackEMF !

I didn't know that, since I have no (potentially hazardous) high voltage experience.

Quote
...Just try to pulse it with square waves or pulse waves and you will see it.
...It seems the magnetic field of an iron coil is different
than a copper coil. ...

Thank you for the practical info. I'll try and remember that in the future.
Also, remember?
The magnet field of the earth is generated by a liquid iron core under the thick silicate mantle. So, copper may actually behave differently than iron, knowing that fact.

Nevertheless, iron can be used in earth battery systems.

--Lee

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on May 07, 2010, 01:24:56 PM

Thanks to innovation_station I am now able to determine the number of turns necessary for L1 (base coil), L2 (collector coil) and L3 (secondary) on a given Toroid (standard Joule Thief circuit). The method allows calculating (approximately) the number of turns necessary to achieve a certain Voltage over L3.

Thank you very much, innovation_station, that helps a lot!

Innovation_station called the method â€œToroid tuningâ€ and the method goes like this:

a) Wind a four turn secondary L3 on the toroid (one could also use a one turn L3, or a two turn L3).

b) Wind a bifilar L1 + L2 on the toroid. One could start for instance with a 25 turn bifilar L1 + L2 (L1 and L2 have equal length wires).

c) Measure the Volts over L3 for a given L1 + L2 and take note.

d) Change the number of turns of the bifilar L1 + L2 and measure again.

e) Best to step down the number of turns for the bifilar L1 + L2 (while leaving L3 as it is) for instance from 25 to 2 and make a list of all measurements.

f) From the list you will see which number of turns for the bifilar L1 + L2 gives the highest voltage on L3. This is the result of the method. If the good number of turns was for instance 10, then use 10 turns for L1 (base coil) and 20 (double of L1) for L2. You can calculate the number of turns for L3 necessary for a certain Voltage by multiplying the Voltage you got on L3. If a 10 turn bifilar L1 + L2 gave 16 Volt on the 4 turn L3, you will get 160 Volt on a 40 turn L3.

May be the method could be presented in a simpler way, please see the attached lists of measurements and the drawings.

This method is very important for me, because it solves the "Riddle of Turns for L1, L2 and L3â€ that annoyed me tremendously.

And the method works: I could improve the output of a 23 mm toroid from about 400 â€" 500 Volt to 500 â€" 600 Volt, just by changing L1 and L2 according to the method. And the turns for L1, L2 and L3 on a bigger 42 mm Toroid (determined and calculated according to the method) gave the intended result, about 1200 Volt, at the first try.

Do the method with the wires (size and make) you want to use later for the real coils.

If you want to do it carefully, you will need an oscilloscope, but for a rough estimate a Voltmeter might suffice (but I did not try it).

It takes quite some time to step through many different numbers of turns for the bifilar L1 + L2, to do the measurements and to make a nice list, but it is definitely worth the effort, because you will then wind a certain type of toroid only once with the right number of turns and the intended result.

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on May 07, 2010, 01:34:04 PM

Thanks to the advice I got in this forum I could build a Joule Thief with a 42 mm Toroid (FERROXCUBE TX42/26/13-3E27, inductance number Al = 6425nH/NÂ²) that can light up various CFLs, Neons and Fluorescent Tubes with up to 1200 Volt. See the attached photos and drawings.

The lamps are not super bright with a battery of 1 to 1.5 Volt, but nice. One can make them brighter with a battery that holds 1.5 Volt steady (because the power consumption is up to 300 mA average). Of course, with more Volts (e.g. 3 Volt) the lamps become brighter and power consumption goes up.

In case one wants to go for high voltage (CFLs need at least 1000 Volt to light up, then they need only about 650 Volt to shine) it is necessary to get a bigger Toroid (42 mm is a good size) and a Toroid with a high Inductance Number Al (e.g. 6000 nH/NÂ²). Big Toroids need fewer turns of wire for high Voltage (in comparison to smaller Toroids made of the same material). And of course "Toroid tuning according to innovation_station".

I could get up to 600 Volt out of a 23 mm Toroid (FERROXCUBE TN23/14/7-3E27, inductance number Al = 3828nH/NÂ²), but it is very difficult to wind a high number of turns with a thin wire on a small Toroid.

My intention is to build a "Jeanna's light in a box" like Lidmotor and Pirate88179. Have a look at theire videos:

http://www.youtube.com/user/Lidmotor#p/u/48/11nzbi59T7w (Lidmotor 19. November 2009 This is Jeanna's Light installed in a wooden box)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-m3sTtDbrPI&feature=related (Pirate88179 13. Dezember 2009 This is my replication of Lidmotor's Jeanna Light)

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on May 07, 2010, 07:08:50 PM

@conrad

Nice coil ! :D

I don't know if you know about the tread with the schematic and the one by Gary(resonanceman) Jt back to basic . it should give you a overview of the first few hundred pages .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 08, 2010, 07:28:15 AM

@ conradelektro,

Thats a well put together posts above, drawings are well done.

@ Jeanna,
here is the last jpg of the adjustable toroid coil selector I made about 5-6 months ago, which I couldnt post as my sat was giving me gypp.
This could help others making joul thieves

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on May 08, 2010, 12:04:50 PM

To mk1 : you propably talk about the thread http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8341 (Joule Thief 101, from resonanceman). I went through it several times, and learned a lot from it.

To electricme : your adjustable toroid coil selector makes me think, that can definitely speed up the tuning, thank you for the hint.

What I learned today about my 1200 Volt Joule Thief:

When I switch on this Joule Thief (Toroid = FERROXCUBE TX42/26/13-3E25) to light up a 5 Watt CFL it swings with a frequency of about 6 KHz. And today a young person with good hearing was immediately complaining about the awful piercing sound it makes. My hearing is not very good anymore, so I did not realise that.

So, one has to worry about the frequency when running a high voltage Joule Thief. The frequency should be way beyond the hearing of people and animals, which can go up to 35 KHz.

This is the reason why I now want to go into air coils which might allow a Joule Thief to run with very high frequencies which nobody will hear.

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Rosphere on May 08, 2010, 12:29:24 PM

I found this web site today: http://www.talkingelectronics.com/projects/LEDTorchCircuits/LEDTorchCircuits-P1.html (http://www.talkingelectronics.com/projects/LEDTorchCircuits/LEDTorchCircuits-P1.html)
(The page information notes a last modification date of September 07, 2008.)

Here is our friend, the JT circuit, with a different name.

EDIT: (See the note about the added capacitor.)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on May 08, 2010, 01:26:48 PM

Quote from: innovation_station on May 08, 2010, 10:07:18 AM
thank you conrad for all your kind words and drawings .. your so good at them !

im happy you have earned great results !

makes me smile ! : )

this is for mk1 the boy who tryed to take what clearly was not his to take ..

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5849.msg240712#new

regards ...

look at the date ...

mk1 were you even a member on this site at that time ...

NO BOY YOU WERE NOT !

ist

it looks like i even had the jt solved when i posted it ... hummmmmmm

YA THINK OR DO YA ?

IST'S NPN / PNP CURCUIT
Â« on: October 17, 2008, 09:57:55 PM Â»

JT THRED STARTED ON

Jule Thief
Â« on: November 20, 2008, 09:07:58 AM Â»

time and date fagget ! hummmmm

it dont take huge math skills to see wich came first ...

REGARDS ..

mk1 regerstration date !

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May 08, 2010, 04:37:21 PM

HOW FUNNY IS THAT FAG! : ) im so 3008 your so 2000 late ...

@ist

You are some dumb moron even after Stefan told you many time to be civil , you just can't stop. Showing how much respect you have for people and stupid you can be.

So now Mr Smarty pants , let me show you how easy it is to make you look foolish ... And juvenile .

Now you are right i was not even considering joining this forum at that time and was not even aware that one half god named Ist was living with us mortal ...

That should be enough to shut you down ... :-\ you did not get it yet.

Ok so lets make things clear you are claiming paternity for all circuit using npn pnp ? It would be hard to do anything else since there is no schematic or any explanation or any circuit what so ever in that tread , now how could someone not that smart like me steal some out of this world tech that you only understand ? Without any knowledge or intent.
That tread is about as relevant as you are .

It not your fault if you did know anything about electronic , you would see how foolish you are.

There is nothing to steal , there is nothing there :-[

So i was not around you clearly proven it , it also proves i did not steal anything from you ... :-*

Now if you what to talk about my circuits that used NPN and PNP transistor , you can find the first i made with schematic in the (schematic tread) and pictures of the completed working unit .

And i modified it recently and also posted schematic to help others . ::)

Now it is Saturday you know Sunday is a good day to be put on read only.

Its like you want it ?.

Give it a rest .

Kid you should have stayed in school , for basic social training .

Have fun !

No wonder it always sound like you invented everything , did you invent those transistors , humm ok you mean you invented NPN PNP transistors ?

If you did i am so sorry i did not know that.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 08, 2010, 03:01:15 PM

IST:

Your disrespectful posts have been removed. Please stop claiming that you invented the JT circuit. The credit for the circuit and the name "Joule Thief" goes to Big Clive. (Dating back to 1999) This has been well established on the internet and can be easily researched with some simple searches. This was done many, many years prior to my starting this topic.

Stefan warned you to only post in topics that you started. You did not start this one so I have removed your hateful postings.

Bill

***EDIT***

To set the record straight for the new folks here, this is a video posted on Youtube in 2007 by Evil Mad Scientist Labs on how to make a Joule Thief. They also credit Big Clive with its invention:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTAqGKt64WM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTAqGKt64WM)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 08, 2010, 03:17:40 PM

Here is a link to Big Clive's invention:

http://www.emanator.demon.co.uk/bigclive/joule.htm (http://www.emanator.demon.co.uk/bigclive/joule.htm)

You can easily see that this dates back to 1999 and was published in a magazine called "Everyday Practical Electronics" Since magazines take some lead time to be published, I would correctly assume the device was born somewhere prior to the publication date of the magazine. Big Clive credits Z. Kaparnik with the original idea for a single transistor circuit.

So, any claims folks might have read here by someone claiming they invented this device 3 years ago are not correct as can easily be seen.

I started this topic in November of 2008 after seeing Bre Petis and Wendal Oskey's video (I posted the link one post up) on how to make a JT, and they were inspired by Big Clive.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Rosphere on May 08, 2010, 04:39:45 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 08, 2010, 03:17:40 PM
Here is a link to Big Clive's invention:
...
You can easily see that this dates back to 1999...

Thanks for the link. It was fun to see a JT small enough to be hidden inside of a tiny incandescent bulb base.

Sorry I missed the 1999 history the first time that it was posted here, somewhere amongst the thousands of replies. (It's like a hoarder's house in here: every trivial post gets saved and stacked, so we don't lose anything. But saving everything also makes it impossible to find anything useful.)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 08, 2010, 05:55:29 PM

Quote from: Rosphere on May 08, 2010, 04:39:45 PM
Thanks for the link. It was fun to see a JT small enough to be hidden inside of a tiny incandescent bulb base.

Sorry I missed the 1999 history the first time that it was posted here, somewhere amongst the thousands of replies. (It's like a hoarder's house in here: every trivial post gets saved and stacked, so we don't lose anything. But saving everything also makes it impossible to find anything useful.)

You are welcome. Yes, I agree that there is a lot of great information in here but also, it is easily buried among many, many, many postings and hard to find at times.

When someone news asks about something we have covered, I used to look it up and post a link to where we discussed it but now, I find it easier to just re-post my photo or link information as I have sometimes looked for 2 hours and still could not find it here, ha ha.

I have posted a lot of the good schematics from the early days in the diagrams topic area but, I believe I was up to page 200 on here and I have not had the time to go back and update it yet. I guess that leaves me about 800 pages behind or so, depending upon how you do the page count. When I find the time, I will try to update it.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 08, 2010, 06:48:28 PM

I just found this photo of Big Clive. He is the guy in the middle. Evidently, he and his 2 friends were made up to appear in a French film of some sort.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: innovation_station on May 08, 2010, 07:24:17 PM

i would like to thank him ..

as for not the work of this man i would not have the understanding i have gained ..

not to say i would not arrive at my answers .. im sure i would have .. just not as fast .. it would have taken me longer to connect the dots !

ist

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on May 08, 2010, 07:38:38 PM

Nice find Bill. It's always nice to see some history about the people that have made discoveries. Do you know if he's still around? He would probably be impressed with what most of the people are doing on this thread with his little circuit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 08, 2010, 10:27:37 PM

MrMag:

Yes, I agree with you. I actually have his e-mail address and I thought it would be cool to invite him here to see what we all have done with his little circuit. I'll bet he would love it.

So, I will do so. We will see what happens.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on May 09, 2010, 06:11:45 AM

Attached please find a summary of what I could do with a lot of help from many people in this thread. It took me about a month from total ignorance to lighting a 5 Watt CFL with a Joule Thief circuit.

The result has a little flaw, because the circuit swings at about 6 KHz and produces a faint screeching sound that can bother people with good hearing and pets.

Bill (Pirate88179) can raise the frequency by attaching a neodymium magnet to the toroid. This helps, according to measurements I have done, it raises the frequency by a few Kilohertz. Gyula (gyulasun) explains that the magnet lowers the original permeability of the toroid and such raises the frequency. Unfortunately this does not seem to be enough to get the frequency beyond 40 KHz or better 100 KHz.

This is only a concern when one goes for a really high Voltage on the secondary, like 1200 Volt, to drive CFLs. In the range of Voltage for LEDs, about 50 to 100 Volt, I did not observe screeching.

According to what I have seen (e.g. in the thread about the Slayer007 GBluer Exciter), air coils offer an alternative.

I will now try some air coils and would like comments from experimenters who have done work with air coils in a Joule Thief type circuit. (Innovation_station gave me some hints on air coils, and I will implement that soon.)

A concern I see with Slayer Exciter type circuits is the electromagnetic radiation that could cause trouble with radio transmission regulations and may also influence the health of people in the vicinity of the circuit (for instance when using it for a reading lamp).

So, what do I want?

-   a Joule Thief type circuit or Slayer007 GBluer Exciter type circuit
-   with an air coil
-   that swings at a high frequency (more than 200 KHz),
-   can light a CFL nicely (about 1200 Volt) with an 1.5 Volt battery,
-   does not screech and
-   does not radiate too much.

The size of an air coil does not put me off. A nicely wound air coil can be a design feature attracting the attention of onlookers. It would be a retro 19 century look!

Well, fellow experimenters and masters of the electronic art, what can we do?

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 09, 2010, 11:59:06 PM

@ Conrad,

Nice work you have done here, well done on the research also.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 10, 2010, 12:04:39 AM

Conrad:

I could be wrong but I believe the folks that tried air cores found that the efficiency was no where near as good as with a decent ferrite toroid. As I said, this was a while ago and I may be incorrect about this. I look forward to seeing your results with the air core and, by the way you document and present your experiments, we will all have some good data either way and learn something.

Keep up the good work.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 10, 2010, 09:56:29 PM

@Conrad,
You have done very nice work.
It is very gratifying to know that you cut the learning time by nearly one year from us. I like that too. Thank you.

I think you can resolve the screeching with some hot glue on the wires without hurting the effectiveness of the coil.
I never got around to that, so I do not know, but lasersaber did this for waterproofness and it works for that.

Please let us know how the air core is coming along.
I once used a ferrite stick that fit inside a weavers shuttle bobbin which I had wound with many hundreds of turns. The difference was really startling; the ferrite makes a big difference.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: detrix42 on May 10, 2010, 11:15:55 PM

@conrad: I am very impressed with your presentation, and your results. i do not have access to oscilloscopes, or a frequency counter. I want to tune a jTC to around 175kHz. I prefer to do this with an iron core if its possible. 175kHz is supposed to be the resonance frequency of the Earth's magnetic field. resonating at that frequency, according to theory I am currently reading about, can cause some interesting effects. But I don't have the equipment to figure out the proper windings, and size of toroid. Would you be willing to try to get a JTC up to 175kHz?

Detrix42

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gauschor on May 11, 2010, 04:20:35 AM

Amazing work, conrad! Since you are able to light a 5 Watt thing, and all by this circuit you posted above?

What I am interested in is: did you try to attach a small e-motor instead of the light as a load? (the small common motors you have in remote toy cars for example).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on May 11, 2010, 06:11:46 AM

@Jeanna,
Thank you for the hint on the glue, I will try that.

This â€œJule Thiefâ€ thread and the two threads
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8341.0 (Joule Thief 101) and
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6942.0 (Joule Thief Circuit Diagrams, Etc....)
help in a big way if one wants to learn the art of Joule Thieves. Reading is important, but I only made progress when I went into actually building Joule Thieves. Then all the readily given help started to make sense. Participation in the relevant threads AND doing it myself were the way forward.

@Detrix42,
When I â€œtunedâ€ the toroid FERROXCUBE TN 23/14/7 I saw that with a 3 turn bifilar L1 + L2 and a 4 turn secondary L3 the circuit swung with a frequency of about 138 KHz (near your desired 175 KHz). I am not an electronics engineer, but I conclude from my experiments that one can reach the 175 KHz with a very few turn bifilar L1 + L2 (may be two turns) and a very few turn secondary L3 (4 turns). But the circuit will be badly tuned as far as gain on the secondary L3 is concerned. The 4 turn L3 only gave about 1 Volt per turn at 138 KHz, look at the two â€œtuning listsâ€ which I posted one page up
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.13455 Reply #13458 on: May 07, 2010, 07:24:56 PM).

The big problem with frequency in a simple Joule Thief is that one can not stabilise it, it will go up and down with the temperature of the components (transistor, toroid) and the Voltage of the battery and also depends on the load on the secondary L3. A more complicated circuit with a quartz or timer will be necessary which is beyond my capabilities.

But some talented people know how to do that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm-G4GMsloI (here you see the Lidmotor 555 Timer CFL Light, frequency is stabilised with a timer, not a Joule Thief, but related)

@Gauschor,
The Joule Thief gives spikes (over collector-emitter of the transistor or over a secondary L3) and these spikes will be of little help to drive common electric motors (DC-motors or the brushless motors which need a nice 3 phase Sinus wave form).

But I saw that gifted people are driving strange pulse or window motors with a Joule Thief type circuit. But again, this is beyond me:
http://www.youtube.com/user/Lidmotor#p/a/u/2/AZyawAoxPfs (This is a small electronic pulse motor using a Joule Thief circuit).

Greetings, Conrad

(attached my latest 50 mm = 2â€ 1100 turn PVC evacuation tube air coil which I will â€œtuneâ€ soon; the photo shows only the long secondary L3 to which I will attach various types of L1 + L2 including pancake type coils; but it will take some time; may be not practical for a pocket flash light)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 11, 2010, 07:22:00 AM

@All

Just had a phone call from Freepow (he carn't access the net at the moment) telling me about his latest JT experiment.

I have permission to mention the toroid is actually 2 toroids, not one, they are stacked one on top of the other.

He said the LED light can be unplugged from the JT box and plugged back into the town power if required without any modification, so I think what we all have here is the first "duel" power source for a LED light.

The JT section in the grey box has all the necessary parts so the LED light can be taken on a camping trip away from "normal power supplies", it runs on 2 nicad batteries which are recharged from a solar panel.

FP mentioned it is just about as bright on the JT as it is on town power.

Excellent work Freepow. ;D ;D

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 11, 2010, 07:40:53 AM

@conradelektro,
Power stabilsation, you could insert a LM317 adjustable IC between the battery and the JT, this will stablise the power to the JT. There are 3 legs on this IC, a voltage input, voltage output and the adjustable leg which takes its juice levels from the output side. Once set, it will pass only what you want it to pass through to the device, in this case the joule thief itself.

The advantage is, you can put a much higher voltage as the supply, it is also a power filter device to boot.

Hope this helps

I'm impressed, nice work done with the vertical aircore toroid, looks a very nice pic, while tuning, try holding a ordinary graphite rod vertically, then slowly inserting it, see what happens to the frequency, you will be "tuning" it.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 11, 2010, 02:35:59 PM

Great work freepow.

Ahem... Maybe not the first.
This one uses an unmodified LoA led bulb in a lamp or 2.

I called it the JTPU = joule thief power unit.
It is pictured with 2 AAA for extra brightness and will run 2 lamps each using a 20 led LoA bulb.
Plug in one or two lamps.
Flip the light switch for on or off.
With a pair of D cells, it has lasted over 2 weeks with no dimming.
I use it in my camper every night for 3-5 hours.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 11, 2010, 06:51:25 PM

@ All:

I have e-mailed Big Clive and have invited him to pop in over here to see how his circuit has evolved. I will let you know about his reply.

@ Jeanna:

I love that light of yours! All that light from the small toroid too. Just amazing.

Well done.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 11, 2010, 11:28:18 PM

@Jeanna,

Thats a very nice table lamp you have there, looks like you are the first to make one, ahem!! :D

@all,
Got my circuit pen out again and whistled up another testing circuit.
This time it "taps" into the inner and outer turns on the JT, it could also be modified to "tap" on to every quarter turn but would be pritty difficult to make but not impossible, another method would be to make a rotating winding joule thief. This would give the ultimate "ultra tuning" joule thief.

enjoy

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 11, 2010, 11:53:17 PM

@all,

Here is what I meant by a ultimate tuned joule thief.
The L1 and L2 winds are placed on the plastic aircore (I have drawn only L1). you could use bare copper or steel wire.
Then a tiny brass pully with a groove makes contact with the L1 turns, but only contacts a small spot, the tube is rotated, the brass pully rotates and it automatically "travels" along its sliding shaft following the wire, this action allows the L1 coil to be tuned at any degree giving a full tunable frequency range so one could ultra fine tune their rotating JT.
Just watch your volt and current meters to get the best output from your setup.

The "tube" has PVC end caps glued to both ends, place a single small bolt in the middle of each end cap, make up two L shaped brackets, drill a hole in each L bracket just a little smaller than the doomed bolt, the pressure of the L brackets supports the PVC pipe and gives it the rotational moment thats needed.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on May 13, 2010, 06:39:54 AM

Hello All

Special Thanks to Stefan, I'm back on OU again, and thanks to Jim & Bill too! for pointing me in the right direction.

Just thought I'd mention that the 20xLED light bulb that I am powering is a 240v input not a 110v bulb, so I may only be able to light one 20xLED light bulb on mine, Dunno yet though, I have not tried two of them so far.
Still experimenting.

@ Jeanna, your camping light is great too!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 13, 2010, 10:14:21 AM

freepow:

Good to see you made it back. I look forward to seeing more of your work.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 13, 2010, 04:02:43 PM

Quote from: freepow on May 13, 2010, 06:39:54 AM
Hello All

Special Thanks to Stefan, I'm back on OU again, and thanks to Jim & Bill too! for pointing me in the right direction.

Just thought I'd mention that the 20xLED light bulb that I am powering is a 240v input not a 110v bulb, so I may only be able to light one 20xLED light bulb on mine, Dunno yet though, I have not tried two of them so far.
Still experimenting.

@ Jeanna, your camping light is great too!

yeay!

In that jtpu as shown in the pic, if it can turn one on then just plug in another lamp with another bulb screwed in the normal way and it should run like from the wall.
I notice a small dimming of the lights when there are 2, but two give more light than one.
The advantage to this one is that there is no modification needed for the lamp or bulb,
I suspect your 20 led bulb must have a higher value resistor added. This will be interesting to see.

You have a small scope don't you?
What freq and volts are you seeing with the jtc you are using? (I am sure you need at least 330v for the 240v bulbs, and I would like to know.)

Also, welcome back!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on May 13, 2010, 04:10:46 PM

@all

Hello everyone , i think it would be a great time to make crystal jt , i mean one that use piezo crystal for timing device i think it would be a great alternative to some 555 .

I believe the modification would help battery life , and keeping optimum freq even at lower voltage ...

Anyone know how to do this ?

Any help would be great !

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: slapper on May 13, 2010, 06:23:28 PM

@Mk1

Take a look at harti's post in the Kapanadze thread:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7679.msg238737#msg238737 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7679.msg238737#msg238737)

It uses a crystal.

Take care.

nap

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on May 17, 2010, 07:59:47 AM

@ Jeanna, I used my scope on my JT-power supply and I have posted a complete drawing of the scope shot, its exactly the same as on the screen, can you help me with what the frequency would be and volts ???

the very top of the green lines went a bit over the top of the grid when the JT is at its best.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: detrix42 on May 17, 2010, 09:04:51 AM

Quote from: freepow on May 17, 2010, 07:59:47 AM
@ Jeanna, I used my scope on my JT-power supply and I have posted a complete drawing of the scope shot, its exactly the same as on the screen, can you help me with what the frequency would be and volts ???

the very top of the green lines went a bit over the top of the grid when the JT is at its best.

It looks like .19mS to me, which would calculate (1/.00019) to 5263Hz. I am not so sure about the volts, because I am not sure about a probe that is at 10x, but its either 125v or 1.25v. Being a JTC, I would think its 150v.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on May 17, 2010, 09:16:54 AM

Thanks for your info. But the volts measured on my DMM are at least 800v+, also I can power very bright a 240v mains powered (LEDx20-bulb). So it has to be more than 150v

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 17, 2010, 01:21:49 PM

Quote from: freepow on May 17, 2010, 09:16:54 AM
Thanks for your info. But the volts measured on my DMM are at least 800v+, also I can power very bright a 240v mains powered (LEDx20-bulb). So it has to be more than 150v

Remember that a DMM is not a reliable measuring tool when working with JT's, especially because of the frequency ranges they operate in. I have also heard that most scopes can not read the output accurately either.

How are we supposed to measure the output then? I am really not sure.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on May 17, 2010, 01:24:42 PM

@freepow

Hello Freepow !

Oscilloscopes usually measure Voltage in the range -35 Volt to +35 Volt. With a x10 probe the range extends to -350 Volt to +350 Volt.

To measure 800 Volt one needs a x100 probe (which would allow the range -3500 Volt to +3500 Volt).

You can overcome this problem with a voltage divider (resistive divider), see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage_divider

and the attached drawing.

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 17, 2010, 09:00:25 PM

Quote from: freepow on May 17, 2010, 07:59:47 AM
@ Jeanna, I used my scope on my JT-power supply and I have posted a complete drawing of the scope shot, its exactly the same as on the screen, can you help me with what the frequency would be and volts ???

the very top of the green lines went a bit over the top of the grid when the JT is at its best.

Oh dear,
I have such a different kind of scope.
Mine tells me right out what the frequency is in Hz as well as mS, but, I just read it off.
It also looks like a very low number of volts to me.
Sometimes if I have the resolution too "far away" it doesn't see what I actually have well at all.

When I use my dmm I could figure multiplying the voltage output by 20 so it really makes me thing this is not showing the story too well.

If each div is 5v then you have 12v then multiply by 10 and this is 120v.
That is not enough spiky volts to do what you are doing.

I am puzzled, and I will think about this.

Thanks for making the drawing.
I hope someone who uses a cro can help more.

I wonder if you can get more of the spikes to show, if the machine will give you a more accurate reading.?
jeanna

ps
a question

When you say the dmm measures 800v, are you rectifying the secondary output and collecting it in a cap and reading THAT on the dmm?
In my experience (and thanks to MK1) this is pretty much the same as the scope on volts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 18, 2010, 07:54:26 AM

@freepow,

Full marks for trying to meassure the hi voltage of the joule thief with your scope, however you need to make sure you can lower the green display line so it appears right on top of the horizonral center line before making measurements.

BUT, making Hi Volt measurements with your ordinary scope probe (or a DMM) should be a no no, as the insulation used while very good is not rated for anything too high, plus the fact if you pump to high a voltage into the front end of any measuring device, it will fail eventually.
(Hands up all those here who have written off their DMMs, yours truly included).

Silicon Chipp magazine (April 2010) had a very good article on how to build a Very High Voltage probe to be used on a DMM, please go here to view it, it has the Hi Volt Prove covered fairly well and costs $40 Australian.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:TJx7Gc42TO0J:www.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_111937/article.html+Silicon+Chip+Hi+volt+probe&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au

I suggest you take a look at Jaycar for the kit, it is not too expensive (it's on my list to buy) and it will give you piece of mind that you wont degrade the DMM, perhaps it could be used on your scope.
JPG is (C) to Silicon Chip a great Australian electronics magazine ;D

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on May 18, 2010, 09:30:28 PM

:) Hello Jim, A few months ago when I measured my double toroid JT,
I measured with 1xAA at 1.267v = 821v
1xAA at 1.390v = 925v
2xAA at 2.727v = 1248v I measured these several times with same result.

And presently when I measure with 1xAA, I now only get around 359-450v about 1/2 of what I got few months back !

So I made another exact double toroid and it still measures only 1/2
So I am thinking that after what you said about damaging the DMM with HV, that maby I have damaged it slightly where it is not measuring it properly anymore ???

What do you think???

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 18, 2010, 09:39:03 PM

freepow,
Maybe one time it was on AC HV and the other time it was on DC HV ??

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on May 19, 2010, 01:35:28 AM

Put your meter on AC volts and plug it in the wall and see what it reads.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on May 19, 2010, 07:35:50 AM

:) @ all, A question for anyone who may know the answer...

When I connect my DMM to my JT, I get a quick HV spike, then it go's down and settles,
which is the most accurate one out of number 1 or 2 ???

1 - The high spike ? ...( I can quickly press the hold button to read this reading )
2 - Or the lower result where the DMM reading settles ?

I know I have been told that the DMM reading the volts from a JT is probably not accurate
but still want to know out of number 1 or 2. Thanks.

One more question, if anyone knows... Would a low frequency radio scanner or frequency
counter with a broad range of say 100Hz to 1Ghz be able to read the output
frequency of a JouleThief ????????????????????????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on May 19, 2010, 01:44:01 PM

Quote from: freepow on May 19, 2010, 07:35:50 AM
:) @ all, A question for anyone who may know the answer...

When I connect my DMM to my JT, I get a quick HV spike, then it go's down and settles,
which is the most accurate one out of number 1 or 2 ???

1 - The high spike ? ...( I can quickly press the hold button to read this reading )
2 - Or the lower result where the DMM reading settles ?

I know I have been told that the DMM reading the volts from a JT is probably not accurate
but still want to know out of number 1 or 2. Thanks.

One more question, if anyone knows... Would a low frequency radio scanner or frequency
counter with a broad range of say 100Hz to 1Ghz be able to read the output
frequency of a JouleThief ????????????????????????

I am really not sure which reading would be more accurate. Have you tried winding maybe 10 turns on the coil and read that voltage. You could then multiply that by the number of turns on your secondary. It may give a closer approximation of the voltage.

I'm not sure if you have enough RF output to get a reading but it would be worth a try. You really need to get a scope.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 19, 2010, 01:48:39 PM

Quote from: freepow on May 19, 2010, 07:35:50 AM

When I connect my DMM to my JT, I get a quick HV spike, then it go's down and settles,
which is the most accurate one out of number 1 or 2 ???

1 - The high spike ? ...( I can quickly press the hold button to read this reading )
2 - Or the lower result where the DMM reading settles ?

I know I have been told that the DMM reading the volts from a JT is probably not accurate
but still want to know out of number 1 or 2. Thanks.

Not when it settles.
The capacitor after an augmented bridge is what tells the tale. It captures all of whatever it is.
also,
The reading speed of the dmm limits what it can see.

Quote
One more question, if anyone knows... Would a low frequency radio scanner or frequency
counter with a broad range of say 100Hz to 1Ghz be able to read the output
frequency of a JouleThief ????????????????????????

As for the frequency., I dunno
I think your scope can tell you but you need to get as 'close' as possible and count the lines.
You can expect this to be between 2khz and 250khz. It seems to me that the larger the toroid the lower the frequency.

I'm sorry I can't say better.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on May 20, 2010, 02:18:12 AM

Quote from: freepow on May 17, 2010, 07:59:47 AM
@ Jeanna, I used my scope on my JT-power supply and I have posted a complete drawing of the scope shot, its exactly the same as on the screen, can you help me with what the frequency would be and volts ???

the very top of the green lines went a bit over the top of the grid when the JT is at its best.

Hi Freepow, youve had good answers to your question including a simple attenuator schematic. most scopes have a calibration reference output point if so use it to check your probe and scope settings, once set you can re check your waveform amplitude. Some attenuated probes also have a variable calibration adjustment! regards. Merv

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on May 20, 2010, 03:25:45 AM

:) Thanks all for your answers ! Does anyone know if a Spectrum Analyzer would work instead of a
oscilloscope for a JouleThief, for checking frequency ?

@ Jeanna, what do you think of digital oscilliscopes like yours ?

I am thinking of getting one soon, I am looking at one that has a bandwidth of 10Hz to 1Mhz
or the other one i'm thinking of is 10Hz to 5Mhz, which one would be best to measure frequency of
most JouleThiefs ???
1st picture = 10Hz to 1Mhz
2nd picture = 10Hz to 5Mhz

sorry about size of picture-1

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on May 20, 2010, 09:15:55 AM

@Freepow

Personally, I would try to find a used 50-100Mhz scope on eBay. You should be able to pick one up for under $300.00. Also, I never did like the LCD scopes. The display is good for constant waveforms but you may loose some of the spikes due to the slow speed of the display. The other thing you may want to look into are the PC scope interfaces. I don't have any experience with them but they look pretty good.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 20, 2010, 01:27:29 PM

Quote from: freepow on May 20, 2010, 03:25:45 AM
:) Thanks all for your answers ! Does anyone know if a Spectrum Analyzer would work instead of a
oscilloscope for a JouleThief, for checking frequency ?

@ Jeanna, what do you think of digital oscilliscopes like yours ?

I am thinking of getting one soon, I am looking at one that has a bandwidth of 10Hz to 1Mhz
or the other one i'm thinking of is 10Hz to 5Mhz, which one would be best to measure frequency of
most JouleThiefs ???
1st picture = 10Hz to 1Mhz
2nd picture = 10Hz to 5Mhz

sorry about size of picture-1

Freepow

What is the maximum input voltage for those scopes.
From what I have seen most of the cheaper scopes have fairly low input voltages........ It would not be fun to fry a scope with spikes on one of the first times you use it.

``````````````````````````````````````````

I had an idea
I wonder if anyone else wants to play around with it.
I am thinking that a resonant circuit in a JT could be helpful
It may help the JT run on much lower input voltages.

I have tried adding a cap in parallel with the coil going to the base.
Although it can be done by connecting the cap to either end.....so far it looks to me like it works better if I untwist the ends of the JT primarys and connect the cap there.

In theory...... once it is running (the secondary powering LEDs ) the LEDs should be brighter with the cap than without it.

In my first tests the only cap that did this was a 1uF tantalium ......a 1uF polypropylene cap was no better than any other cap I tried.
With the tantalium cap it was slightly brigher with the cap than without ......but only slightly

It is usually necessary to short across the cap to get the JT started.

My first tests were done on a candy cane coil.........4 turns through the center for primarys.........20 turns on each of 6 toroids.
I am not sure if candy cane coils are ideal for this.....but it was what I had handy.

I am thinking more turns on a primary might be helpful for this particular circuit.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 20, 2010, 02:16:48 PM

Quote
I had an idea
I wonder if anyone else wants to play around with it.
I am thinking that a resonant circuit in a JT could be helpful
It may help the JT run on much lower input voltages.

I have tried adding a cap in parallel with the coil going to the base.
Although it can be done by connecting the cap to either end.....so far it looks to me like it works better if I untwist the ends of the JT primarys and connect the cap there.

In theory...... once it is running (the secondary powering LEDs ) the LEDs should be brighter with the cap than without it.

In my first tests the only cap that did this was a 1uF tantalium ......a 1uF polypropylene cap was no better than any other cap I tried.
With the tantalium cap it was slightly brigher with the cap than without ......but only slightly

It is usually necessary to short across the cap to get the JT started.

My first tests were done on a candy cane coil.........4 turns through the center for primarys.........20 turns on each of 6 toroids.
I am not sure if candy cane coils are ideal for this.....but it was what I had handy.

I am thinking more turns on a primary might be helpful for this particular circuit.

gary

After testing a little more..........my 1uF tantalium is still the only cap that makes the LEDs a little brighter connected than unconnected........but the brightness fades in a minute or so...... and even though it is brighter....the starting voltage is about 10 V less than without the cap...... I am measuring the voltage across my LED array.
The voltage then drains away another 10 V or so before it levels off.
As it does this the LEDs grow dimmer in step with the falling voltage.

I can't check the input power........I fried my meters that can read that.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on May 20, 2010, 03:34:10 PM

@FreePow,

As Mr. Mag suggested go for a good used one with a decent spec and bandwidth. I am fortunate to own various pieces of good test gear including a PC scope. you can save waveforms as a file and refer to them from a folder or forward on, mine built in the UK (which is my home land) also features both a digital meter and frequency spectrum analyzer. A spectrum analyzer on it's own may not necessary be that useful due to the harmonic content of the JT's output waveform. Scopes generally are looked after so you should be able to get a decent instrument with a good spec cheaper.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on May 20, 2010, 05:05:00 PM

Quote from: crowclaw on May 20, 2010, 03:34:10 PM
@FreePow,

As Mr. Mag suggested go for a good used one with a decent spec and bandwidth. I am fortunate to own various pieces of good test gear including a PC scope. you can save waveforms as a file and refer to them from a folder or forward on, mine built in the UK (which is my home land) also features both a digital meter and frequency spectrum analyzer. A spectrum analyzer on it's own may not necessary be that useful due to the harmonic content of the JT's output waveform. Scopes generally are looked after so you should be able to get a decent instrument with a good spec cheaper.

How do you like the PC scope? I've always been interested in them. The nice thing about them is that once you have the scope interface the rest is software. Opens a lot of possibilities. Not to mention the snapshots and file saves. Does it perform as well as a CRT based unit?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on May 20, 2010, 05:49:22 PM

Quote from: MrMag on May 20, 2010, 05:05:00 PM
How do you like the PC scope? I've always been interested in them. The nice thing about them is that once you have the scope interface the rest is software. Opens a lot of possibilities. Not to mention the snapshots and file saves. Does it perform as well as a CRT based unit?

Yes it's a fantastic tool... you can closely sample intricate waveforms and freeze frame and save the data for future analysis. Mine is a few years old and performs impeccably. Pico technology is the company over here that market a range of PC scopes and various add ad dons. Several other companies also market similar. I have posted several screen shots here, taken with this tool. Not sure of current prices for these. Where you score with this type of instrument is comparing waveforms while carrying out experimental work especially on JT's however!!!! remember to safely attenuate the input signals first. One trick I recommend is to clip the probe lead onto the insulation of the JT/s high voltage pulse output wire rather than making a direct electrical connection, you will have to increase the scopes input sensitivity. A scope is really essential for any serious electronics hobbyist and an absolute must for these oscillator / pulse circuits... the wider the bandwidth the better. Glad to help

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 21, 2010, 01:55:02 AM

I agree totally. I followed MrMag's recommendations a while back and found and obtained a Tektronix model 2213 60 mhz dual channel scope with manuals and got 2 new probes on Ebay for $150.00 total. Best purchase I ever made. This is a very good quality instrument and works very well.

Of course, I am still learning how to use it properly but, I am getting there.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on May 21, 2010, 02:26:47 AM

The Vellemen handheld digital oscilloscope has a sampling rate of 10 Ms/s & up to ???? vdc ,$300
UT81B handheld digital oscilloscope has a sampling rate of 40 Ms/s & up to 1000vdc ,$263
AHJ 6104 handheld digital oscilloscope has a sampling rate of 50 Ms/s & up to 1000vdc ,$214

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on May 21, 2010, 10:01:09 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 21, 2010, 01:55:02 AM
I agree totally. I followed MrMag's recommendations a while back and found and obtained a Tektronix model 2213 60 mhz dual channel scope with manuals and got 2 new probes on Ebay for $150.00 total. Best purchase I ever made. This is a very good quality instrument and works very well.

Of course, I am still learning how to use it properly but, I am getting there.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 21, 2010, 02:24:04 PM

Quote from: freepow on May 21, 2010, 02:26:47 AM
The Vellemen handheld digital oscilloscope has a sampling rate of 10 Ms/s & up to ???? vdc ,$300
UT81B handheld digital oscilloscope has a sampling rate of 40 Ms/s & up to 1000vdc ,$263
AHJ 6104 handheld digital oscilloscope has a sampling rate of 50 Ms/s & up to 1000vdc ,$214

Thanks freepow

Here is one I have been looking into.
I am checking on its max input voltage......I see input protection is diode clamping......If I understand that right .....any voltage over the clamping voltage will be drawn off....... That sounds like a good idea to me.

I found out about this on another thread.... gotoluc has one and likes it.....

http://cgi.ebay.com/DSO-5200-50GS-S-PC-USB-digital-storage-oscilloscope_W0QQitemZ140324893670QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBI_Oscilloscopes?hash=item20ac03f3e6[/quote]

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on May 21, 2010, 06:56:07 PM

To all who look for a tool to measure Joule Thieves:

I got the DSO-2100 USB PC USB Digital Storage Oscilloscopes which is not sold any more (it is about 4 years old) and it helps me a lot. It would be very boring without it.

The newer model DSO-5200 (resonanceman posted it) is a very good choice today, or that one: http://www.hantek.com.cn/english/produces.asp (DSO 2150). Hantek manufactures these oscilloscopes in China and they are sold by various distributors.

Attached two scope shots I did today with my DSO 2100. The point is, that one can see the most complicated wave forms very nicely.

It is very helpfull to buy a x100 probe (in addition to a x1 and x10 probe), which I use to measure signals up to 3500 Volts.

On the attached scope shots you see a measurement over the secondary of a joule thief that gives about 600 Volts (air coil).

It is quite easy to use my DSO 2100, although one can get missleading results as a beginner. The probes I got prevented all disasters because they have a high impedance (resistance). Sometimes I do not understand the measured result because I do not understand the interaction of the scope probe with the circuit, specially when I measure high frequency signals. Sometimes the circuit stops working when I attache the scope probe (also an interaction of the probe with the circuit). But I am getting better at it.

I like very much that the scope on the USB port of my PC allows storage of the measurements as images which I can recall later. A drawback is that one needs a PC or Laptop to use the scope.

Best would be a stand alone DSO which can also be connected to a PC (but that costs several thousand Euros).

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on May 21, 2010, 07:27:00 PM

@Conraddelektro,

Nice scope shots. That's the BIG advantage of the PC interface systems. I have a feeling that my next scope will be one of these units. I just don't feel comfortable with the handheld units. (Unless you buy one of the more expensive units)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 21, 2010, 08:08:53 PM

Quote from: conradelektro on May 21, 2010, 06:56:07 PM
To all who look for a tool to measure Joule Thieves:

I got the DSO-2100 USB PC USB Digital Storage Oscilloscopes which is not sold any more (it is about 4 years old) and it helps me a lot. It would be very boring without it.

The newer model DSO-5200 (resonanceman posted it) is a very good choice today, or that one: http://www.hantek.com.cn/english/produces.asp (DSO 2150). Hantek manufactures these oscilloscopes in China and they are sold by various distributors.

Attached two scope shots I did today with my DSO 2100. The point is, that one can see the most complicated wave forms very nicely.

It is very helpfull to buy a x100 probe (in addition to a x1 and x10 probe), which I use to measure signals up to 3500 Volts.

On the attached scope shots you see a measurement over the secondary of a joule thief that gives about 600 Volts (air coil).

It is quite easy to use my DSO 2100, although one can get missleading results as a beginner. The probes I got prevented all disasters because they have a high impedance (resistance). Sometimes I do not understand the measured result because I do not understand the interaction of the scope probe with the circuit, specially when I measure high frequency signals. Sometimes the circuit stops working when I attache the scope probe (also an interaction of the probe with the circuit). But I am getting better at it.

I like very much that the scope on the USB port of my PC allows storage of the measurements as images which I can recall later. A drawback is that one needs a PC or Laptop to use the scope.

Best would be a stand alone DSO which can also be connected to a PC (but that costs several thousand Euros).

Greetings, Conrad

Thanks for the info Conrad

It is good to know that a X100 probe is available for the 5200

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on May 22, 2010, 08:10:33 AM

Hello all, great scope shots ! But if one wants mobility without a PC and limited in funds, then maby consider the portable UT81B at $198.99 US +free postage, Can measure to 1000 VDC with scope !
What does everyone think ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 22, 2010, 01:09:25 PM

Quote from: freepow on May 22, 2010, 08:10:33 AM
Hello all, great scope shots ! But if one wants mobility without a PC and limited in funds, then maby consider the portable UT81B at $198.99 US +free postage, Can measure to 1000 VDC with scope !
What does everyone think ?

Freepow

That looks like a great deal.

I considered it when you first posted about it.

I don't remember seeing a scope for a lower price.

I am going for a USB scope because I want to be able to have a big image if the waveform.
I also like being able to do a scope shot with just a few clicks.

ANother thing that is important to me. I want 2 channels so I can do things like watch the primarys and secondary at the same time

I am also thinking that a USB scope should be able to be used like a data logger.......

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 22, 2010, 02:54:40 PM

Also, if used on a laptop it is just as portable to use in the filed.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on May 22, 2010, 02:56:00 PM

@ all interested in a USB Digital Storage Oscilloscope (DSO):

The discussion got me interested in doing a quick on-line search for USB DSOs.

I found this British firm:

http://www.picotech.com/oscilloscope-specifications.html

http://www.picotech.com/computer-oscilloscope.html ( PicoScope 3200, Â£399.00, $658.35, â,¬466.83 )

The PicoScope 3200 is a bit expensive, but its specifications look good. Farnell sells it, so chances are high that it works.

@ Gary (resonanceman) and all who want 2 channels on a scope:

On my DSO-2100 the "ground" of the two channels is the same, which limits the simultaneous use of the two channels. Many inexpensive USB DSOs with two channels will be constructed in a similar way.

If the two signals I want to measure have the same "ground", I can see them together in different colours (which is very nice); if not, I will connect something in my circuit which should not be connected or one of the measurements will be meaningless.

The secondary coil in a Joule Thief type circuit behaves differently or fails when you tie it down to the same "ground" (battery pole -) as the Joule Thief circuit. Meaning, I can not measure the signal on the secondary together e.g. with the signal over the collector - emitter with my DSO-2100.

Two channels are good but you have to think before connecting two probes to your circuit.

@ all who like hand held scopes:

The inexpensive hand held scopes have a very limited frequency range (5 to 10 MHz) and a very limited resolution (on screen and in the memory).

The very good products from FLUKE are expensive:
http://us.fluke.com/fluke/usen/products/categoryoscill?trck=scopemeter

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 22, 2010, 07:22:21 PM

Quote from: conradelektro on May 22, 2010, 02:56:00 PM
@ all interested in a USB Digital Storage Oscilloscope (DSO):

The discussion got me interested in doing a quick on-line search for USB DSOs.

I found this British firm:

http://www.picotech.com/oscilloscope-specifications.html

http://www.picotech.com/computer-oscilloscope.html ( PicoScope 3200, Â£399.00, $658.35, â,¬466.83 )

The PicoScope 3200 is a bit expensive, but its specifications look good. Farnell sells it, so chances are high that it works.

@ Gary (resonanceman) and all who want 2 channels on a scope:

On my DSO-2100 the "ground" of the two channels is the same, which limits the simultaneous use of the two channels. Many inexpensive USB DSOs with two channels will be constructed in a similar way.

If the two signals I want to measure have the same "ground", I can see them together in different colours (which is very nice); if not, I will connect something in my circuit which should not be connected or one of the measurements will be meaningless.

The secondary coil in a Joule Thief type circuit behaves differently or fails when you tie it down to the same "ground" (battery pole -) as the Joule Thief circuit. Meaning, I can not measure the signal on the secondary together e.g. with the signal over the collector - emitter with my DSO-2100.

Two channels are good but you have to think before connecting two probes to your circuit.

@ all who like hand held scopes:

The inexpensive hand held scopes have a very limited frequency range (5 to 10 MHz) and a very limited resolution (on screen and in the memory).

The very good products from FLUKE are expensive:
http://us.fluke.com/fluke/usen/products/categoryoscill?trck=scopemeter

Greetings, Conrad

Conrad

I am very glad to learn about the common ground before I bought.
I think it is much more valuable to have to related signals on one scope..........so you can see what happens to one when you change the other.
It would be possible to see the changes with 2 separate scopes.....but it would be alot harder to see than with a good 2 channel scope.

Do you know the terminology to use when looking for a scope with 2 separate grounds.
I see on your pico scope link 3425 has differential inputs ..... could that be the separate grounds? ........it looks slow and expensive.......but then again it is 4 channels.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: giantkiller on May 22, 2010, 11:05:11 PM

I have one of their DSO-2090 usb scopes and it broke within warranty period. The company has not to this date replied back to me therefore I cannot recommend this company. I contacted Beigly electronics and hantek in China. They do not answer. Put your money elsewhere.
There are better companies to deal with.

Quote from: resonanceman on May 21, 2010, 02:24:04 PM

Thanks freepow

Here is one I have been looking into.
I am checking on its max input voltage......I see input protection is diode clamping......If I understand that right .....any voltage over the clamping voltage will be drawn off....... That sounds like a good idea to me.

I found out about this on another thread.... gotoluc has one and likes it.....

http://cgi.ebay.com/DSO-5200-50GS-S-PC-USB-digital-storage-oscilloscope_W0QQitemZ140324893670QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBI_Oscilloscopes?hash=item20ac03f3e6

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on May 23, 2010, 08:10:08 AM

@ Gary (resonanceman) and other scope seekers:

The "differential input" seems to be the magic for placing multiple probes on a circuit.

This article explains a lot:

http://www.tiepie.com/uk/classroom/Measurement_basics/DifferentialMeasurements.html#Differential

http://www.tiepie.com/uk/products/ (British company)

It looks like one has to invest several thousand Euros to get something good.

And it needs some experience to use an oscilloscope in the right way. I am glad that I started with a comparatively reasonable scope (the DS-2100, which costed together with the three probes I bought about 350.-- Euros in 2006). Now I know a bit more and can think about upgrading.

I am convinced that one has to go for a "digital storage oscilloscope" (DSO) which has an USB interface. Connection to the PC is a must for documenting the results and for communicating them to others.

It is less expensive to buy a dedicated simple laptop (second hand) together with an USB-DSO (without screen and buttons) than to go for a stand alone DSO. I will use an older Laptop which nobody wants any more in the family. Windows XP is still good enough for the software that comes with an USB-DSO.

I hope that the discussion about oscilloscopes is still relevant to this Joule Thief forum? I guess it is, because we want to measure Joule Thieves?

Besides a scope, one more piece of equipment seems to be essential: I am talking about a "Bench Power Supply". It allows to accurately adjust the supply Voltage and the allowed Amperage (to protect your circuit) which is very helpful while testing a circuit. It can be a rather simple one.

A "bench power supply" and a DSO lift your experiments to an other level.

I got this power supply, and it helps a lot:

http://www.conrad.at/ce/de/product/511812/LINLABORNETZGERAeT-VLP-1303-PRO/SHOP_AREA_17452&promotionareaSearchDetail=005

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on May 23, 2010, 08:58:03 AM

I've been away recently.

I apologize for the brevity in this post, but I'm looking for a JTC style circuit which produces AC in as clean a way as possible. This means it should utilize two paths, or a center tapped transformer, this won't be a problem ...

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

- - - - - - - - -

On a side note, I recently pulled the driving board for a scanner bulb out along with the bulb itself - low an behold, it was a joule thief style circuit. :D

Pictures coming as soon as I dust and clean the house and get everything settled with this sinus infection ( cleaning hasn't helped, but there's literally a brooding hoard of dust bunnies and they're fixing to lay down fire if I don't engage in a preemptive attack ).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 23, 2010, 09:04:01 AM

jadaro:

Welcome back.

What do you mean by "clean" exactly? A single frequency as opposed to multiple frequencies? A good solid sine wave?

I am just curious.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 23, 2010, 01:33:24 PM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on May 23, 2010, 08:58:03 AM
I've been away recently.

I apologize for the brevity in this post, but I'm looking for a JTC style circuit which produces AC in as clean a way as possible. This means it should utilize two paths, or a center tapped transformer, this won't be a problem ...

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

- - - - - - - - -

On a side note, I recently pulled the driving board for a scanner bulb out along with the bulb itself - low an behold, it was a joule thief style circuit. :D

Hi Jadaro,
I assume by aC, you are meaning something that would light a neon on both sides?

The best examples of this that I have found are the MK1 designs type of secondary
these are the kind that have the secondary wire going from one central point and winding to the left,
then returning to center
then winding more to the right
and returning to center.

You do not need to make very many turns to try this out. All the ones that got posted were very many turns, but just some work that way too.

Interesting about the scanner.
It seems this is a widely used circuit.
(Go stubblefield! ;) )

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on May 23, 2010, 06:52:46 PM

would you please try this with a bc337-25 as these are what i am using and i could not get a single wind secoundry to light a led
only the foule thief primery led works i havent as of yet added winds till i get an led to light thank you

dave

just an update i rewound a toroid black and it is 250mm 7mm 3mm i folded a single peace of cat5 cable and wound it round the toriod 10 times 20 turns in total draws 50ma from a full battery i have used a 1k resister and a bc337-25 and with one turn i light the led with 3 turns the led is at full brightness

Quote from: jeanna on January 29, 2009, 07:48:27 PM
@MK1

I just exchanged the 2222 that I have for the 3904 I have been using in my breadboard experiments. I may not matter, but just to be clear, the toroid in this is the half wound one with the 1 1/2 turn secondary.

The 2222 draws .44A from the same exact set up where the 3904 draws only 0.33A
So, the lights look about the same brightness, but the amp draw is higher with the 2222.

=======
May I get an explanation please?
About counting the turns. If I start at the outside of the toroid and feed both ends through the middle and end where I started, is that 2 turns? It seems one turn to me one complete turn. There are however 2 strands of wire going through the center to get there.
Ist used a way to close the wire by twisting it onto itself and so close it. Is that one turn?

Thank you,

jeanna

@MrMag ;D thanks. I will see if that helps. thanks for trying.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on May 23, 2010, 08:54:30 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 23, 2010, 09:04:01 AM
jadaro:

Welcome back.

What do you mean by "clean" exactly? A single frequency as opposed to multiple frequencies? A good solid sine wave?

I am just curious.

Bill

Yes, something with a good sine wave ( with very little DC bias ). Something that would light a neon on both sides.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 23, 2010, 09:17:36 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on May 23, 2010, 06:52:46 PM
would you please try this with a bc337-25 as these are what i am using and i could not get a single wind secoundry to light a led
only the foule thief primery led works i havent as of yet added winds till i get an led to light thank you

dave

just an update i rewound a toroid black and it is 250mm 7mm 3mm i folded a single peace of cat5 cable and wound it round the toroid 10 times 20 turns in total draws 50ma from a full battery i have used a 1k resister and a bc337-25 and with one turn i light the led with 3 turns the led is at full brightness

Good job!!!

Hi Dave and welcome,

I assume you are trying to catch up since this quote is from last year.
I have learned almost everything I know SINCE then! ;D

Not getting a single secondary wind isn't a big deal. It astonished anybody that this would work and has a lot to do with the permeability of the toroid.
Usually, I recommend that people turn as many winds as make a nice bright light then multiply that number of turns by the number of leds they want to light and wind those turns onto the toroid.

Sometimes you can run out of room in the center and so must limit the leds.
Sometimes you 'choke' the primary with too many turns and need to back off some, but mostly, it is a pretty reliable way to arrive at the number of turns you need.

And, please remember to remove the led from the C-E junction when you are using the secondary. when the led is in that C-E spot, then IT is the thief.

As for the high amps draw, it could be the transistor.
Now that you have successfully made the secondary light turn on, it is time to tune the primary.
To do that, begin by removing one turn at a time from the collector coil, checking for brightness and stop when the light gets dimmer and add back that last tuen then remove turns from the base side.
the collector side of the toroid does best when it has the higher number of turns so expect to take off more from the wire that touches the base resistor than the collector.

Later on last year we decided to name things and agreed on some conventions.
They are all collected in the joule thief 101 thread, I think.

Have fun,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on May 23, 2010, 09:21:30 PM

ty that has really helped clear alot up for me i got to 5 winds and damn got to remeber not to look stirght on at the bloody led so do you thin tuning the collecter and base winds will drop the amps used also when you said add the same winds per led is that led's in parallel or series
i was thinking of keep each 5 winds per led separate

Quote from: jeanna on May 23, 2010, 09:17:36 PM
Good job!!!

Hi Dave and welcome,

I assume you are trying to catch up since this quote is from last year.
I have learned almost everything I know SINCE then! ;D

Not getting a single secondary wind isn't a big deal. It astonished anybody that this would work and has a lot to do with the permeability of the toroid.
Usually, I recommend that people turn as many winds as make a nice bright light then A that number of turns by the number of leds they want to light and wind those turns onto the toroid.

Sometimes you can run out of room in the center and so must limit the leds.
Sometimes you 'choke' the primary with too many turns and need to back off some, but mostly, it is a pretty reliable way to arrive at the number of turns you need.

And, please remember to remove the A from the C-E junction when you are using the secondary. when the led is in that C-E spot, then IT is the thief.

As for the high amps draw, it could be the transistor.
Now that you have successfully made the secondary light turn on, it is time to tune the primary.
To do that, begin by removing one turn at a time from the collector coil, checking for brightness and stop when the light gets dimmer and add back that last tuen then remove turns from the base side.
the collector side of the toroid does best when it has the higher number of turns so expect to take off more from the wire that touches the base resistor than the collector.

Later on last year we decided to name things and agreed on some conventions.
They are all collected in the joule thief 101 thread, I think.

Have fun,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 23, 2010, 09:23:51 PM

@jadaro,
The times I have seen a real looking sine wave, have been in very odd places.
Usually a led is involved and sometimes a cap plus led are involved together.
I have not been able to make any predictions about getting this sort of thing, though.

the last 2 times I saw a sine wave were
1- at the other side of a transformer on the multiple secondaries circuit, and
2- when I made the conical secondary and measured the output across the secondary with 3 leds in series already in place.

I wish you luck in your search!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 23, 2010, 09:29:25 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on May 23, 2010, 09:21:30 PM
ty that has really helped clear alot up for me i got to 5 winds and damn got to remeber not to look stirght on at the bloody led so do you thin tuning the collecter and base winds will drop the amps used

Yes, usually that gives the best output for the least cost.

I see you have learned how blinding the leds can be!
I was doing A LOT of this last year and I just stuck a resistor into the circuit (breadboard) at the pos of the battery to keep from blinding myself. Later I would remove it.
Lidmotor uses a rheostat at that spot and when he is finished, he has a variable light.
This is a cool thing, because that really saves the battery.
You can have the light half on then when you want to read or see better, you can turn it up.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on May 23, 2010, 09:32:51 PM

or i been doing the blinding thing with lights for years more so when you change battery and look to see if it has improved then always say to my self i wont do that again but a simpson moment doh

Quote from: jeanna on May 23, 2010, 09:29:25 PM
Yes, usually that gives the best output for the least cost.

I see you have learned how blinding the leds can be!
I was doing A LOT of this last year and I just stuck a resistor into the circuit (breadboard) at the pos of the battery to keep from blinding myself. Later I would remove it.
Lidmotor uses a rheostat at that spot and when he is finished, he has a variable light.
This is a cool thing, because that really saves the battery.
You can have the light half on then when you want to read or see better, you can A.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on May 23, 2010, 09:37:39 PM

now this i do love i hope they still do them and hope i can find one online

Quote from: electricme on February 05, 2009, 05:04:27 AM
@ all
I drove into town today and bought a little device to try and get the best output out of my torrds.
What I got was a "Resistance Wheel", or Resistance Substitution Wheel". It cost me $19.95 Australian dollars, would be about $10 American.

This device has inside it all the resistors from 5 ohm to 1Meg ohm, I clip the red and black clips where the 1K resistor goes at the base of the transistor and after applying power, I turn the wheel until I get the best possible setting, against the best output of the torid.

Look at the scale, the pointers arrow will point to the resistor which is the one putting out the best voltage.

I believe there is a Capacitor wheel as well, I will get one of those as soon as I can.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 24, 2010, 05:47:38 AM

dasimpson:

I have never heard of these devices until Jim posted about them. I have never seen anything like them here in the states. It sounds like a very handy device to decide what the resistance should be.

If anyone knows where these can be found here in the US please let us know.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on May 24, 2010, 09:14:17 AM

ok i am cheating here i have got my joule thief to pull no more then 7 - 10 milliamps by putting a resister in line with the postive feed ok the led on the secondry is dimmer now then it was befor what i am hopeing is more winds will bring this brightness back up what do you think
btw i used a pot to ajust the resistence will i got the ampage draw below what i wonted then mesuerd with the multi meter then checked all the risisters i have for a similer reading
ok scrap that 10 times thew turns and same brightness oh well 100 milliamp draw it is then just hope it dosent raise to much with each led i add

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gyulasun on May 24, 2010, 09:37:41 AM

Bill,

I do not know them, nor their prices but they have decade resistor boxes:

http://www.ietlabs.com/decaderes.html

Similar boxes exist for capacitors too, but you could also easily assemble such boxes on component prices: you need some ten way rotary switches (Yaxley) and resistors and a box. Regardless of member dasipson... if you need such boxes.

rgds, Gyula

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 24, 2010, 06:20:55 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on May 24, 2010, 09:14:17 AM

btw i used a pot to ajust the resistence will i got the ampage draw below...

See what gadgetmall did.
He put a capacitor on the unused end of the pot and joined the other side to one of the sides.
I am not exactly sure.
He then was able to use a 50K pot and get bright light on only 3 or 4 mA draw.
I only recently learned this, and have not tried it except in a flaky way.
When he first described it, I did not follow what he was doing, but I am sure it is a very worthy direction to go.
And if you get some way to describe it, please do, since this is something almost none of us have explored.

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on May 24, 2010, 06:27:54 PM

it is knowing exactly were he put them ius the problem with a diagram i could proberbly understand but i am very limited on parts i try and salvage al i can as i have as much money going out as i have comming in i think my main mistake was buying bc337-25 transistors insted of the 2n3904 but my intention at first was to build single joule thief and not the way of secondry winds and thing i guess when i get a little cash spare i will order some 2n3904 then my work would be on the same curcuit compnents to what most of you use

i know this wrighting must look like a load of rambling with no . and , etc but i am dyslexic and have alot of problems with wrighting and spelling but hay albut albert einstein was also and look how he did

Quote from: jeanna link=topic=6123.msg242383#msg242383 A=1274739655
See what gadgetmall did.
He put a capacitor on the unused end of the pot and joined the other side to one of the sides.
I am not exactly sure.
He then was able to use a 50K pot and get bright light on only 3 or 4 mA draw.
I only recently learned this, and have not tried it except in a flaky way.
When he first described it, I did not follow what he was doing, but I am sure it is a very worthy direction to go.
And if you get some way to describe it, please do, since this is something almost none of us have explored.

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 24, 2010, 07:05:15 PM

OK that is fine
(dyslexia makes you more flexible of brain IMHO ;) )

Here is a copy of one such diagram from gadget who also called himself fusionchip.
If you look at the base resistor you will see the pot with the arrow.
It also has a cap symbol.
This is where he put the cap on the non used leg of the pot.
I was wrong. the mA were 0.43mA or micro amps... really low!!

BTW, you can expect the amps draw to LOWER when you put more lights on the secondary... just a little piece of magic to inspire you.

Here is the pic.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on May 24, 2010, 08:27:31 PM

from what i make of that there is 2 pots with a capaciter on each if i am also looking at it right the cap goes from the 2 outer pins of the pot not the ajuster pin aka the center pin also bit confused on 100 turns center tap and 30 turns secondary im guessing the 30 is for the led but what is the 100

i am also guessing that the center pin of one pot connects to the center pin of the other pot

Quote from: jeanna on May 24, 2010, 07:05:15 PM
OK that is fine
(dyslexia makes you more flexible of brain IMHO ;) )

Here is a copy of one such diagram from A who also called himself fusionchip.
If you look at the base resistor you will see the pot with the arrow.
It also has a cap symbol.
This is where he put the cap on the non used leg of the pot.
I was wrong. the mA were 0.43mA or micro amps... really low!!

BTW, you can expect the amps draw to LOWER when you put more lights on the secondary... just a little piece of magic to inspire you.

Here is the pic.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 24, 2010, 09:12:55 PM

I don't know the answers to your questions, but I posted this so you can see the concept.

Center tap is what the joule thief bifilar works out to be, so it refers to the bifilar primary.

Just tune the toroid you have there.
It will do best with a certain number of turns and that is specific to your toroid.

He had this way to adjust the resistor at the base, and that was the point of the post.
He used germanium PNP transistors too, so the twisted pair I suppose went to the neg rather than the pos as with the NPN, but I am guessing.

The 680pF is a rather small cap and good for this high frequency switching.
I think it caught a piece of the back spike and delivered it to the base on the next on cycle so the battery didn't need to provide that. It is tricky and brilliant.

Do you have any small value caps?
And do you have a pot for the base resistor?
If you do see what happens to your amps draw.

I will be very interested to see this.This kind of concept is useful everywhere.
Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on May 24, 2010, 09:16:42 PM

i have i think what is a pot from a pc fan controller i have some caps i can salvage from scrap blue one i also have a couple of the the ceramic ones old remote control cars etc have them
i think you and i have the same goal light as many leds as we can to full brightness and use as little amps as we can i really need to get a bread board i think but same old always down to money
i think this thread has drifted way off the standerd joule thief in many parts like the cam think we need a set rule for the joule thief and stick to that thro a thread aka set what restser is standerd tranny also the toriod maybe a pic to best find matches mainly soi we can al work from the same lvl plain and more or less the same starting point i know some have more money then other i use what i can salvage wich dosent tend to be alot if i do get a couple of quid spare i try and get what i need bot nine times out of ten it is bread or milk lol i also noticed you use thick coated network wire insted of magnet wire for your primery is they any reasion for that or is that what you find best

i will take a pic of my joule thief that way you can get a look at what i am playing with as it stands i have 10 bifilar winds on it with 2 wires from a network cable i also have 2 leds each has its own 5 winding on the toriod with wire i got from a floppy disk motor blue i would say o.5mm or summin and both leds are bright but i tend to find it draws about 100ma i use a bc337 transistor and a 1k resistor

Quote from: jeanna on May 24, 2010, 09:12:55 PM
I don't know the answers to your questions, but I posted this so you can see the concept.

Center A is what the joule thief bifilar works out to be, so it refers to the bifilar primary.

Just tune the toroid you have there.
It will do best with a certain number of turns and that is specific to your toroid.

He had this way to adjust the resistor at the base, and that was the point of the post.
He used germanium PNP transistors too, so the twisted pair I suppose went to the neg rather than the pos as with the NPN, but I am guessing.

The 680pF is a rather small cap and good for this high frequency switching.
I think it caught a piece of the back spike and delivered it to the base on the next on cycle so the battery didn't need to provide that. It is tricky and brilliant.

Do you have any small value caps?
And do you have a pot for the base resistor?
If you do see what happens to your amps draw.

I will be very interested to see this.This kind of concept is useful everywhere.
Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 24, 2010, 10:21:32 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on May 24, 2010, 09:16:42 PM

You are not alone.
Lots of people salvage. In fact gadget got most of his parts from salvage as does electricme.

I use the telephone cable because it is easy to strip and because when I needed a 100 foot length for a stubblefield coil I bought a 100 ft extension cord.It had 6 wires 24 awg all 100 ft. so, I still have plenty.
But it might work better for the primary. It doe not work for the secondary. For that you really must get the varnished wire.

Pix will be good.

You seem to have a joule thief with 2 secondaries. 5 turns for each secondary and 1 led on each.
There is another whole thread about that but I didn't realize what it was at first and called it ac from joule thief, or something like that. It might have more information for you as well. And it stays more on target too.

A breadboard will make experimenting much easier.
quid, so are you in oz? or UK?

As far as standardizing this it is and was not possible. This joule thief concept inspired so many great ideas, it has been wonderful just to be a part of the wildness. And there is no substitute for reading a few pages a day until you're done.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on May 24, 2010, 10:38:07 PM

ok so the higher the awg the thinner the wire ? and yes im in the uk
ill get some pictures on later today it is now like 3:30 am and i am upto i think page 210 glad you said a few a day sometimes takes me a few reads of one page to follow whats going on would you have a link for that other thread pls

i found the other thread and wow talk about jumping in at the deep end with your diagram
i think a good idea to put on the first port of every joule thief thread would be recomend the new commers to read joule thief 101

Quote from: jeanna on May 24, 2010, 10:21:32 PM
You are not alone.
Lots of people salvage. In fact gadget got most of his parts from salvage as does electricme.

I use the telephone cable because it is easy to strip and because when I needed a 100 foot length for a stubblefield coil I bought a 100 ft extension cord.It had 6 wires 24 awg all 100 ft. so, I still have plenty.
But it might work better for the primary. It doe not work for the secondary. For that you really must get the varnished wire.

Pix will be good.

You seem to have a joule thief with 2 secondaries. 5 turns for each secondary and 1 led on each.
There is another whole thread about that but I didn't realize what it was at first and called it ac from joule thief, or something like that. It might have more information for you as well. And it stays more on target too.

A breadboard will make experimenting much easier.
quid, so are you in oz? or UK?

As far as standardizing this it is and was not possible. This joule thief concept A so many great ideas, it has been wonderful just to be a part of the wildness. And there is no substitute for reading a few pages a day until you're done.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on May 25, 2010, 05:16:42 AM

@ JEANNA

Hello from freepow, When you take a scope shot of your Joule Thief, Do you get a shot of the quick high volt peak of the JT output before it settles back down-(like on a multi-meter), and do you have to quickly put it on hold to get that peak shot or does it show the whole thing...meaning-
the high voltage peak right down to where it settles ????

And do you actually get a scope shot of the frequency at the high peak volts ????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on May 25, 2010, 09:46:36 AM

ok here are some imiages of my joule thief sorry is the images are to large i tried to make them as small as possible

Photo sizes modified by Moderator

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 25, 2010, 04:04:31 PM

@Freepow,
check your pm.

@dave, I see 3 leds. This is good progress.

@dasimpson and conrad too,

Please run your pictures through an image editor (gimp is free) and change the size of the image to no bigger than 600 pixels wide.
The way it is ruins the whole page and the text must be scrolled sideways for the whole page which is terrible.

Thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 25, 2010, 04:51:30 PM

Jeanna is correct. Please post photos to no larger than 800x600. Otherwise, I have to go in a modify them which takes a lot of time. (Of which I have very little these days) There are many free photo programs out there and they are easy to use. Irfanview is but one, Jeanna mentioned another.

Thanks,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on May 25, 2010, 05:17:01 PM

im now setting my camera to vga 640x480 to make sure they are the right size i do apologise
[A author=Pirate88179 link=topic=6123.msg242486#msg242486 date=1274820690]
Jeanna is correct. Please post photos to no larger than 800x600. Otherwise, I have to go in a modify them which takes a lot of time. (Of which I have very little these days) There are many free photo programs out there and they are easy to use. Irfanview is but one, Jeanna mentioned another.

Thanks,

Bill
[/quote]

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on May 25, 2010, 05:22:14 PM

i got upto 7 leds but every time i add one the other dimm slightly they ran for about 4 or 5 hours my current draw is anyware from 20 to 100 ma i think im going to stop untill i get some 2n3904 as i see ppl have had some really good results
if i wonted to run the led's in parrallel would i need less turns or would running them in series be best i really dont have a clue i keep trying but to no avail

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on May 25, 2010, 05:48:08 PM

would apper on a fully charged aaa 600mah bettery my joule thief pulls 120ma

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 25, 2010, 08:03:54 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on May 25, 2010, 05:22:14 PM

if i wonted to run the led's in parrallel would i need less turns or would running them in series be best i really dont have a clue i keep trying but to no avail

dasimpson

Series or parallel depends on the JT.
It you have plenty of voltage but not much current series works best. ........ if you have low voltage but plenty of power parallel works best ........ If you have plenty of power and voltage you can do a few parallel and a few in series.......

`````````````````````````````

have you tried using less turns on your primary?
Some toroids need around 10 turns........but if you can get by with less........ you will need less turns in the secondary to get the same voltage........

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on May 25, 2010, 08:10:05 PM

i use 10 bifilar for the primiery and about 5 turns for every led secondry but i find each time i do that the other led get a little dimmer i am at moment out of enamel wire going to strip a hobby motor in a bit i wont to light 22 leds so by what i have read that sound be a 110 turn secondry but what i dont know what to do is if the 110 choke the oscerlation how to cure that and keep all led at full brightness

the parts i use are 1k resister bc337 transister untill i can get some 2n3904's a 1 inch black toroid and cat 5 wire

Quote from: resonanceman on May 25, 2010, 08:03:54 PM
dasimpson

Series or parallel depends on the JT.
It you have A of voltage but not much current series works best. ........ if you have low voltage but plenty of power parallel works best ........ If you have plenty of power and voltage you can do a few parallel and a few in series.......

`````````````````````````````

have you tried using less turns on your primary?
Some toroids need around 10 turns........but if you can get by with less........ you will need less turns in the secondary to get the same voltage........

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 25, 2010, 09:57:43 PM

Hi dasimpson,
Gary is correct about the series and parallel.
It really makes little difference.

I have 2 lamps made in this simple way we are discussing. One has 24 leds with 6 in series but 4 strings of them, and the other has 42 leds with 6 in series again, but 7 strings of them. They are both bright and both last a long time with one NiMH AA that has 2500mAH. If you are using a 600mAH battery, you are doing really well if you get more than 8 hours, especially with that transistor.

Also,
You do not want to kill your rechargeables by taking the voltage too low over and over.

I also want to mention that my best tuning for one of my toroids is 2Turns on the base and 9 Turns on the collector.
another is 5T on the base, and 8T on the collector.
If you are using the 5/$1 kind from goldmine, I think the best tuning is 6T,6T even, but I am not exactly sure there.
The point is there is a wide range and do not be afraid to get really off balanced.

When you have 2 secondaries, one often goes out, so maybe concentrate on using just one secondary. You can get the 2 to both light the leds but you need an extra inductor in series... more fiddling!

It is great to see you doing this so well and so quickly.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on May 25, 2010, 10:09:47 PM

thanks when i get set on things o do tend to go full bor at it like these to little fellows see pics below one is a ferite bar from a radio 20 turns bifailer the other i got of a well can not remeber what i got it off it was just an experement but was happy as larry when it worked first time the toriod one was allready wound as i say it was an experement and it worked they are 6 winds collector and 5 winds base they both draw about 50ma my battery never run flat i have a solar panel outside my windows that keeps 1 aaa and 1 aa chargeing and trickle charge and i run off them the aa is 2500mah

extra inductor in series do you mean another toroid say tenty turns dump coil (meaning the coil that comes from the secondory of the firct toriod) and the turns needed to get the lgiht needed on the pickup

Quote from: jeanna on May 25, 2010, 09:57:43 PM
Hi dasimpson,
Gary is correct about the series and parallel.
It really makes little difference.

I have 2 lamps made in this simple way we are discussing. One has 24 leds with 6 in series but 4 strings of them, and the other has 42 leds with 6 in series again, but 7 strings of them. They are both bright and both last a long time with one NiMH AA that has 2500mAH. If you are using a 600mAH battery, you are doing really well if you get more than 8 hours, especially with that transistor.

Also,
You do not want to kill your rechargeables by taking the voltage too low over and over.

I also want to mention that my best A for one of my toroids is 2Turns on the base and 9 Turns on the collector.
another is 5T on the base, and 8T on the collector.
If you are using the 5/$1 kind from goldmine, I think the best tuning is 6T,6T even, but I am not exactly sure there.
The point is there is a wide range and do not be afraid to get really off balanced.

When you have 2 secondaries, one often goes out, so maybe concentrate on using just one secondary. You can get the 2 to both light the leds but you need an extra inductor in series... more fiddling!

It is great to see you doing this so well and so quickly.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 25, 2010, 10:21:03 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on May 25, 2010, 08:10:05 PM
i use 10 bifilar for the primiery and about 5 turns for every led secondry but i find each time i do that the other led get a little dimmer i am at moment out of enamel wire going to strip a hobby motor in a bit i wont to light 22 leds so by what i have read that sound be a 110 turn secondry but what i dont know what to do is if the 110 choke the oscerlation how to cure that and keep all led at full brightness

the parts i use are 1k resister bc337 transister untill i can get some 2n3904's a 1 inch black toroid and cat 5 wire

dasimpson

did you try your JT with less than 10 tirns bifilar?\
If it will not run with less than 10 turns it is probably an iron powder toroid.......or a choke.
If that is the case........ your top priority could be to find a better toroid.
As I understand it.... iron core troroids are used alot in power supplys....... An easy but probably not completely accurate explination is some toroids are just not fast enough for JTs.
Almost any toroid intended for high frequency use will probably work well.
The 5 for $1 toroids from Electronic Goldmine are a good inexpensive toroid to start with.

gary

edit

with a good toroid you should be able to run with 3 or 4 wraps bifilar...... right now your secondarys are working kind of like step down transformers..... with 3 wraps your same secondarys would work like step up transformers. .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on May 25, 2010, 10:30:28 PM

ok these are what i have see pic below the black one is 2.5cm the yellow one is also 2.5cm the green and blue one is 1.5 cm from a blown cfl the little green one i cont remember were i got it that is 1cm what one would you say is best

Quote from: resonanceman on May 25, 2010, 10:21:03 PM
dasimpson

did you try your JT with less than 10 tirns bifilar?\
If it will not run with less than 10 turns it is probably an iron powder toroid.......or a choke.
If that is the case........ your top priority could be to find a better toroid.
As I understand it.... iron core troroids are used A in power supplys....... An easy but probably not completely accurate explination is some toroids are just not fast enough for JTs.
Almost any toroid intended for high frequency use will probably work well.
The 5 for $1 toroids from Electronic Goldmine are a good inexpensive toroid to start with.

gary

edit

with a good toroid you should be able to run with 3 or 4 wraps bifilar...... right now your secondarys are working kind of like step down transformers..... with 3 wraps your same secondarys would work like step up transformers. .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on May 25, 2010, 10:40:23 PM

you lost me with this part "with a good toroid you should be able to run with 3 or 4 wraps bifilar...... right now your secondarys are working kind of like step down transformers..... with 3 wraps your same secondarys would work like step up transformers. .

and as far as i know ant psu ones good cos they have to work in the 60mhz range

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 25, 2010, 10:54:42 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on May 25, 2010, 10:30:28 PM
ok these are what i have see pic below the black one is 2.5cm the yellow one is also 2.5cm the green and blue one is 1.5 cm from a blown cfl the little green one i cont remember were i got it that is 1cm what one would you say is best

It is impossible to tell how well a toroid will work by looking at them........but many iron powder toroids are painted.......most ferrite toroids I have seen are uncoated.

It would be very helpful if you would say if you have tried using less than 10 wraps on your JT

Is it possible for you to find an old TV or monitor tear apart?
The flyback transformer in these has a great core for toroids.......it can also often be used as is.........if you can't get the shell off of it.
They are not easy to get out....... but worth the trouble.
Be very careful if you have not messed with old TVs before........the sides of the picture tube act as a big capastor........it can sometimes hold a lethal charge for months ........ so make sure it is discharged before you try taking any parts off.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 25, 2010, 11:19:41 PM

@dasimpson,
Thanks for the pix.

The tiny green one looks a lot like one of mine from a cfl. I think 23w size.

Quote
extra inductor in series do you mean another toroid say tenty turns dump coil (meaning the coil that comes from the secondory of the firct toriod) and the turns needed to get the lgiht needed on the pickup

sort of.

I made a long study of this.
I theorized that the pulses which were being made by the joule thief were being picked up by the toroid.
But when I had 3 leds coming from the 20 turn secondary, the 10 leds running from 84T secondary would not turn on. but then I used a toroidal inductor in series and suddently both went on.

I used this idea and eventually by adding series inductors of different types, I got I forget 28 leds on the 84T and 8 leds on the 20T and another 5 in an additional string.

It is documented on the ac from secondary thread, but also on 6 videos on yt.

the point is that when you have the pulses already happening, you can get a free ride from them if you add a series inductor or 2.
I also added caps, but they only worked after I added the series inductors.

It starts here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4IMgDRGpHE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4IMgDRGpHE)
And there are 6 parts.
1,2,3,4,4a,6 are their numbers. It will do well to have more people try this.
The toroid there is 10/$10 Tor-23 from allelectronics.coom.
It likes 5T to the base, 8T to the collector and here had a frequency of 205khz.

Thanks for being interested!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 25, 2010, 11:20:51 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on May 25, 2010, 10:40:23 PM
you lost me with this part "with a good toroid you should be able to run with 3 or 4 wraps bifilar...... right now your secondarys are working kind of like step down transformers..... with 3 wraps your same secondarys would work like step up transformers. .

and as far as i know ant psu ones good cos they have to work in the 60mhz range

The 60 Hz range is not good for JTs........ a toroid designed for that range is designed for power supplies and stuff like that.
Jts often work in the KHz range........but more important the spikes a JT makes are VERY fast...... a good toroid for JTs should be able to work in the MHz range.

I added a couple of pictures of JTs I have made with flyback transformers

The first one was made with just the core......... it has bifilar 30 gage magnet wire windings 200 ft long.......these wires used in parallel will light a CFL tube...... the thicker wire is 22 gauge 40 ft........it will light my 90 LED array very brightly.

Notice the blue and white wires for the primary.
This primary was wound in the MK2 style ........it has 3 wraps of each wire on each side.........later I removed 2 of the wraps on each side of the white wire.... the white wire was connected to the base.

The second picture is of a JT powering my 90 LED array
This flyback transformer was sealed.......I could not get it apart without damaging it .........but the windings inside work great if you hook them up right.

Notice my JT board....... I have a piece of wood with a heatsink and a pot mounted on it....... then I have screws for terminals.....I then use alligator clips for connections..............for me this works better than a breadboard.....

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 25, 2010, 11:38:34 PM

dasimpson

As you look for parts to salvage do you ever come across any ferrite core transformers?

This picture is of the bottom of a transformer out of a monitor.
I drew lines between the pins with continuity......
I was playing with feeding back part of the output back to the battery...that is what I used the connection lables feedback for.....as I remember it was about 50 V
The secondary was about 200 V ......with 1 AA

IN general......if you can find a ferrite core transformer with 3 or more low resistance pins with continuity .........and 2 pins with higher reesistance.......it will probably make a great JT

gary

Edit

The B + on the clip with 2 stripes should be read........battery positive ...... that would be the same as the 2 wires twisted together on a normal JT

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 26, 2010, 01:58:56 AM

@ dasimpson:

Nice work on your jt circuit and also on the photos.

As you will read in the thread as you go over it, we have found that, whatever toroid you use, you will need to tune your circuit to it.

I agree with the others that ferrite is the best, easiest type to get good results from although some, like Jeanna, have been able to get the powered iron ones to work.

You are using a 1k resistor which is a good average shot in the dark for the basic jt circuit. As you alter your primary and base and secondary turns and, depending upon what toroid you are using, you will need to determine the best resistance for what you are trying to achieve.

A variable resistor is the best way to do this. Try a 5k VR in your circuit and turn it until you get what it is you are looking for be it low amp draw or brightest light output. Then measure what the VR is providing at that setting and you can replace it with a resistor of that same value. This will make a huge difference in your circuit's efficiency.

I hope this helps.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on May 26, 2010, 05:38:39 AM

@ Gary (resonanceman) and all other experimenters who have experience with a lot of different "cores", toroids or "transformers" in a Joule Thief circuit:

Gary, what is your experience with "screeching" or "singing" of cores, toroids, wires or transformers?

This happens in the 1 to 50 KHz range of oscillation. Also lower harmonics of the Joule Thief frequency happen and are sometimes in the hearing range of people and pets.

I am in the process of doing a series of measurements with different air core coils in a Joule Thief circuit.

At the moment I can light 10 to 30 LEDs with a frequency of 50 to 150 KHz (from a 1 Volt power source). Best so far is an air core with a diameter of about 110 mm, 20/20 bifilar L1/L2 and a 200 turn secondary (standard Joule Thief circuit with a 500 Ohm resistor on the base of the transistor).

The big problem is high Voltage (e.g. 1200 Volt) from a 1 Volt power source. Even with air core coils I can not reach high frequencies. I am kind of stuck with 20 KHz (which are bothering people with good hearing and pets). With an air core the noises made are very faint, but they are still there. With toroids the noises are rather strong. With toroids (and high voltages on a secondary L3) I am stuck in the 4 to 6 KHz range.

All seems to be good once the circuit swings with more than a 100 KHz.

It is easier to reach higher frequencies when starting with a higher Voltage (e.g. 4 Volt or 6 Volt), but one has to be careful not to overheat the transistor or the base-resistor.

I "see progress" with bigger diameter air coils (200 to 300 mm). The bigger coils show very nice regular patterns when swinging, not spikes like toroids or transformers.

Attached see one example with an 110 mm diameter air core. The big bumps are happening with 108 KHz.

When I put a 3 K resistor on the base (with a 1 Volt power source) I can create nice sine waves with several hundred KHz on a secondary L3, but the voltage stays very low (e.g. 60 Volt) in spite of the many turns of L3 (see second scope shot).

I also want to go into pancake type windings for L2.

The "trigger L1" (going to the base of the transistor) should have fewer turns to increase frequency (e.g. 5 turns). So far "high frequency" has lowered very much the voltage on a secondary L3 no matter what I do.

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on May 26, 2010, 06:06:44 AM

Quote from: conradelektro on May 26, 2010, 05:38:39 AM
@ Gary (resonanceman) and all other experimenters who have experience with a lot of different "cores", toroids or "transformers" in a Joule Thief circuit:

...

I "see progress" with bigger diameter air coils (200 to 300 mm). The bigger coils show very nice regular patterns when swinging, not spikes like toroids or transformers.

Attached see one example with an 110 mm diameter air core. The big bumps are happening with 108 KHz.

When I put a 3 K resistor on the base (with a 1 Volt power source) I can create nice sine waves with several hundred KHz on a secondary L3, but the voltage stays very low (e.g. 60 Volt) in spite of the many turns of L3 (see second scope shot).

...

I've been looking for a setup which will light both sides of a neon; then it appears as though an air-cored coil setup would be the way to go.

Does anyone else have any suggestions.

- - - - -

I've been having trouble soldering the leads to these trigger coils I picked up. What is the purpose of or difference between rosin core and common solder? ..do I need to pick up some sort of etching or rosin?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 26, 2010, 06:11:52 AM

What little I know:

Rosin core is for electronics and stuff that should need to work for a long time.

Acid core is more for like plumbing, and not so sensitive stuff as it actually etches the surface. (eats) If you use this for electronics, somewhere down the road the circuit may fail due to corrosion.

Clean surfaces is always a good idea although I don't clean the copper wires like I do copper pipe before soldering. The soldering flux does a nice job there. Only mag wire do I clean after I burn off the plastic/varnish insulation.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on May 26, 2010, 06:18:18 AM

A couple of days ago I was in Office Depot and went to buy a drink from the checkout area and noticed a Clearance box with some Energizer hearing aid batteries in it, ...two Zinc Air #10 dispensers with eight batteries in each of them.

Rated at 1.4Volts, these look like an interesting source for any up coming micro-sized compact or other JTC circuits. Pretty nice deal at 25 cents per package of 8.

I've been finding a lot of interesting things in the clearance sections lately... the walmart clearance sections ( often in the back of the store in the arts and crafts area or near sporting goods ) is usually has some interesting stuff in it.

I found some foam pads and felt/velvet/suade there for cheap ( plenty enough to re-line an old jewelry box ).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on May 26, 2010, 07:29:48 AM

im still strugling to understand what you mean by inducter

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on May 26, 2010, 09:51:01 AM

@ jadaro2600

Here my findings so far concerning sine waves on a secondary L3 in a Joule Thief type circuit:

- use an air core with a diameter between 100 and 300 mm (I know this is big, but you then do not need that many turns for L3, may be 150 to 400 turns); 0.2 or 0.3 mm diameter enamelled wire; thinner wire is very difficult to handle and thicker wire needs a lot of space and more turns

- start with winding the secondary L3 on the cardboard or plastic tube; I put a strip of double sided sticky tape on the tube to hold the windings while I wind (with a primitive hand winding station I built)

- on one end of the secondary L3 you wind L1 + L2 over L3; either bifilar or center tapped (I put a piece of paper on L3 to protect it when winding L1 + L2 over it)

- use very few turns for L1 + L3 (may be 6 to 9)

- use an adjustable base resitore (0 to 10 K with a safety 100 Ohm) and set it to 2 to 4 K Ohm, the sine wave will have several hundred Kilo Hertz (I have seen 700 KHz, easily 400 KHz)

- the voltage of the sine wave on L3 will be rather low (may be 60 to 120 Volt); when you decrease the base resistor, the voltage over L3 will go up, the frequency will go down rapidly and the sine wave becomes more like spikes ringing down

- when you see sine waves on L3 the consumed power will be rather low (may be 40 to 100 mA) because the base resistor will be high (2 to 4 KOhm)

- what I said is for a 1 to 2 Volt power supply, if you use higher supply voltages (e.g. 6 Volt to 12 Volt) frequency will go down, voltage on L3 goes up fast, the sine wave becomes spikes and transistor and base resistor overheat within seconds

An experimenter calling himself slayer007 has an interesting circuit which I will explore soon (when I get bored with my air cores on the basic Joule Thief circuit):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU_HeCr8BTM (Slayer explains his circuit at the beginning of the video, therefore it is a video as I like them, because I can understand what Slayer is doing in the video)

But may be you also follow the thread http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8977.45 GBluer (Slayer) Exiter.

What I would like is a modification of the latest Slayer circuit to avoid radiation. I want 1500 Volt to go by two wires into a CFL or neon with high frequency (may be 200 to 500 KHz, or even Mega Hertz). The wireless transmission of power is interesting but not yet for the average home.

From what I have seen, the basic Joule Thief circuit is very good for a 1 Volt power supply (a single or two AAA or AA batteries in series) but becomes critical (concerning overheating of the components) when using a power supply with higher voltage (4 Volt and higher, definitely with 12 Volt). Slayer has found I nice way with his adjustable capacitor to make a 12 to 18 Volt power supply possible. May be one can adapt this idea to the basic Joule Thief circuit.

A 12 Volt Battery charged by a solar panel with a high frequency Joule Thief type circuit lighting a CFL brightly could be useful. Some sort of emergency lamp or free energy lamp. The 12 Volt battery and the air core coil would be rather big, but for a stationary lamp that would not matter much.

I know, one can turn 12 Volt into 110 or 220 Volt with a commercially available converter, but that converter wastes power and is no fun (and it also "screeches" or "sings").

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on May 26, 2010, 12:54:00 PM

i have read to page 270 and i have come to relise they is way to many ppl trying to do to many different things with the joule thief with no clear goals.

from what i have found one of the goals is run from one 1.5 volt battery to as many volts as possible this is ok but what good is volts with out the amps to back them up
ok i understand the cfl light with this unit is deffo a good step but only with we can get the current graw very low this also needs to be easerly duplicated and self made none of the cam units

also has any one built a properly working joule thief battery charger or is the amps just not there for it

i think my main goal is to try and get something from nothing meaning an earth battery powering househould lights or at least chargeing a 12volt battery bank for this porpes i do tend to see alot of rambling about what ppl are doing but with out images this is hard to image or understand ok i do under stand that lots of pics makes a slow site for dail up but i know thay is software dail up users can use to turn images off unless they wont them meaning they only get text based and links for images

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 26, 2010, 02:25:18 PM

Quote from: conradelektro on May 26, 2010, 05:38:39 AM
@ ..... and all other experimenters who have experience with a lot of different "cores", toroids or "transformers" in a Joule Thief circuit:

....what is your experience with "screeching" or "singing" of cores, toroids, wires or transformers?
...
The "trigger L1" (going to the base of the transistor) should have fewer turns to increase frequency (e.g. 5 turns). So far "high frequency" has lowered very much the voltage on a secondary L3 no matter what I do.

Greetings, Conrad

Hi Conrad,
The sound can be softened if you add some hot glue onto your windings. It is rubbery and will stop the friction that is causing the sound.

I found that in a joule thief the frequency and voltage are reciprocal...they go in opposite directions.
This is why you can get higher frequency with a higher voltage input to the primary pulse circuit.
If you start at 1.2 v there is just so far down you can go to raise the frequency before the whole pulse shuts down.

So, you have revealed an excellent work-around to get higher frequency.

thank you for this information,

jeanna

@dasimpson,
an inductor is a coil of wire.
There is a lot of information available on this.
I recommend the MIT classes by Prof Lewin ... physics 802 class 16 or beyond. they are clear and very well presented.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 26, 2010, 03:29:21 PM

The Dr. Walter Lewin lectures are really fantastic. I have learned a lot from watching them.

Here is a good example of an inductor used as a heater:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7DBS2Is0ws&playnext_from=TL&videos=_saRvLwIkoI&feature=grec (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7DBS2Is0ws&playnext_from=TL&videos=_saRvLwIkoI&feature=grec)

It melts aluminum in seconds! of course, they are using a bit more input than 1.5 volts.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on May 26, 2010, 04:30:22 PM

ty i will take a look at them i belive i found an inducter in the cfl light it has the markings 472k

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on May 26, 2010, 04:32:02 PM

wow erm yeah dont think ill go that powerfull but holy beeep

Quote from: Pirate88179 link=topic=6123.msg242569#msg242569 A=1274902161
The Dr. Walter Lewin lectures are really fantastic. I have learned a lot from watching them.

Here is a good example of an inductor used as a heater:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7DBS2Is0ws&playnext_from=TL&videos=_saRvLwIkoI&feature=grec (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7DBS2Is0ws&playnext_from=TL&videos=_saRvLwIkoI&feature=grec)

It melts aluminum in seconds! of course, they are using a bit more input than 1.5 volts.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 26, 2010, 05:03:47 PM

Quote from: conradelektro on May 26, 2010, 05:38:39 AM
@ Gary (resonanceman) and all other experimenters who have experience with a lot of different "cores", toroids or "transformers" in a Joule Thief circuit:

Gary, what is your experience with "screeching" or "singing" of cores, toroids, wires or transformers?

This happens in the 1 to 50 KHz range of oscillation. Also lower harmonics of the Joule Thief frequency happen and are sometimes in the hearing range of people and pets.

I am in the process of doing a series of measurements with different air core coils in a Joule Thief circuit.

At the moment I can light 10 to 30 LEDs with a frequency of 50 to 150 KHz (from a 1 Volt power source). Best so far is an air core with a diameter of about 110 mm, 20/20 bifilar L1/L2 and a 200 turn secondary (standard Joule Thief circuit with a 500 Ohm resistor on the base of the transistor).

The big problem is high Voltage (e.g. 1200 Volt) from a 1 Volt power source. Even with air core coils I can not reach high frequencies. I am kind of stuck with 20 KHz (which are bothering people with good hearing and pets). With an air core the noises made are very faint, but they are still there. With toroids the noises are rather strong. With toroids (and high voltages on a secondary L3) I am stuck in the 4 to 6 KHz range.

All seems to be good once the circuit swings with more than a 100 KHz.

It is easier to reach higher frequencies when starting with a higher Voltage (e.g. 4 Volt or 6 Volt), but one has to be careful not to overheat the transistor or the base-resistor.

I "see progress" with bigger diameter air coils (200 to 300 mm). The bigger coils show very nice regular patterns when swinging, not spikes like toroids or transformers.

Attached see one example with an 110 mm diameter air core. The big bumps are happening with 108 KHz.

When I put a 3 K resistor on the base (with a 1 Volt power source) I can create nice sine waves with several hundred KHz on a secondary L3, but the voltage stays very low (e.g. 60 Volt) in spite of the many turns of L3 (see second scope shot).

I also want to go into pancake type windings for L2.

The "trigger L1" (going to the base of the transistor) should have fewer turns to increase frequency (e.g. 5 turns). So far "high frequency" has lowered very much the voltage on a secondary L3 no matter what I do.

Greetings, Conrad

Conrad

you can read a little about what I believe the cause of the high pitched noise is here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetostriction

I agree that potting the coil in hot glue is probably the best answer.........Hot glue is soft enough to absorb some of the vibration....a harder material might just transmit the vibration to the surface.

``````````````````
Many of my JTs are made for 12V
I found same 1.8K ohm power resistors in an old monitor .......I put one of those on on the wire just before my potentiometer. ( pot )
I could run 12V with a much lower resistance but I like my circuits to run cool.

When I started using 12V I switched to 2n3055 transistors. Now I use TIP3055 I find they take more abuse........
I always use a heatsink........ with TIP3055s I just use a piece of aluminum from the hardware store..

`````````````````````````````

you talk about making sine waves........ I think something most people that have visited this thread have missed is that JTs make impulses.........spikes
Learning to use these impulses for practical things is half the fun.......
The impulses are like a different kind of electricity ...... they follow many of the rules..........but not all of the rules.
I have been playing with JTs for a few years now....... I have not yet done more than to scratch the surface.........the more I do........the more I come up with new theories and projects
Right now..........if I could spend all my time playing with JTs and had unlimited money........I could probably stay busy a few years.

````````````````````````````
I do not have a scope........so I have no way to check the frequency.
I have noticed that a capacitor across the base resistor can change the frequency..... it also seems to me that the circuit pumps more power with each cycle when you use a large cap.
With some of my JTs using a large cap........ (like 10uF ) I can get my 90 LED array to blink once every few seconds.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 26, 2010, 08:34:09 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on May 26, 2010, 04:30:22 PM
ty i will take a look at them i belive i found an inducter in the cfl light it has the markings 472k

In short,
You have 3 inductors in your jtc.
the first 2 are the center tapped primary and the third is the secondary pick up. In yours with a second secondary, you have a total of 4 inductors.

Depending on the permeability of your toroid, your inductors will give you more or less henries. (a henry is the way the inductor is measured.)

I hope this clears that up.
I am sorry to confuse.
btw, that guy Lewin is the tops. He is great.

I need to go for the evening. bye,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on May 27, 2010, 11:50:24 AM

i have to point something out i just read on page 310 about bridge rectifires is does matter what pins the ac voltage goes to ac must got the the markings~ ~ if they got to any other it will not be a full bridge rectifire but a half bridge meaning with ac you would only get the + side of 0 not the - side of the ac
with a full bridge rectifire it take the - side of 0 and the + side of 0 and forced them out the + side of the rectifire to get the wave to + 0 all the time on a scope the dc will look like loads of hump back bridges and always stay aboove the 0 line ac will go above and below the 0

ac is safer then dc as it drops below 0 means you can let go dc is not as safe once you touch dc you normaly can not let go as it will lock your muscles solid this is as the right voltage and ampage mind you

the bit i dont get is why a bridge rectifire has any affect on dc pulses unless the jt really is producing ac voltage so if that is the case most inverter will have a jt of some sort

another thing to point out ac in a house the neutral dose go to earth on every pilone over so many miles
think abaout this ac is pulses of electricity but they move back and forth now for there to be a hot wire and a cold(nueatral) one must go to earth otherwise both terminals would be hot (live) if you done belive this go look at some pilones you will see some have shorting rods i was told this info by a mains distributer engineer aka my step dad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on May 27, 2010, 11:58:12 AM

may i ask what this is

Quote from: innovation_station on April 08, 2009, 04:11:19 PM
NOT TO CONFUSE ...

but to clarifly .... ;)

i drew!!

here ya go

take it or leave it lol ;) :)

ist!

369 ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on May 27, 2010, 01:42:21 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on May 27, 2010, 11:58:12 AM
may i ask what this is

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg169507;topicseen#msg169507

The post above is on pg. 311, Reply #4663 of the "Jule Thief" thread.

If you read more of ist's posts and try to understand what his work is about, that might help to understand him better.

Then, again, ist is ist.
But, he does have more than a little experience in electronic bench experimentation and I've found his suggestions helpful in high voltage electronic engineering.

--Lee

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 27, 2010, 04:42:48 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on May 27, 2010, 11:50:24 AM
...
the bit i dont get is why a bridge rectifire has any affect on dc pulses unless the jt really is producing ac voltage so if that is the case most inverter will have a jt of some sort

another thing to point out ac in a house the neutral dose go to earth on every pilone over so many miles
think abaout this ac is pulses of electricity but they move back and forth now for there to be a hot wire and a cold(nueatral) one must go to earth otherwise both terminals would be hot (live) if you done belive this go look at some pilones you will see some have shorting rods i was told this info by a mains distributer engineer aka my step dad

The secondary of the jt can look like high spikes going only op OR down, Sometimes they can go both ways as I recently said to jadaro, but they need to be double rectified.
It means you need a full bridge to make - and + out of what goes in, but after the - you must add another diode in the same - direction and the same on the pos side.
You can test this yourself.

Get a cap from a camera, and use it to collect the volts off the bridge, and short and repeat a few times.

Then add the 2 extra diodes and collect the result in the same (first shorted) cap. You will see way more volts this way.
I do not know why this is. MK1 pointed this out to me and he is right.
These are all normally unseen and wasted voltage spikes.
Now that we can see then, we can use them.

About the mains. we waste a lot.
It is amazing how we are set to waste so much.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on May 27, 2010, 07:20:33 PM

Quote from: jeanna on May 27, 2010, 04:42:48 PM

It means you need a full bridge to make - and + out of what goes in, but after the - you must add another diode in the same - direction and the same on the pos side.
You can test this yourself.

Get a cap from a camera, and use it to collect the volts off the bridge, and short and repeat a few times.

Then add the 2 extra diodes and collect the result in the same (first shorted) cap. You will see way more volts this way.
I do not know why this is. MK1 pointed this out to me and he is right.
These are all normally unseen and wasted voltage spikes.
Now that we can see then, we can use them.

Jeanna

This double rectifying and many other things I have been noticing lately keep reminding me of a large scale diode array that I remember reading about on this site a few years ago

The guy made a large array of diodes and believed he was capturing energy from the random vibration of atoms.....if I understand his project

I am wondering if his ideas can be incorporated into a JT.

What if we made a secondary with a diode every dozen or so turns.......

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on May 27, 2010, 09:33:10 PM

Hi Gary,

I don't know how I would do that.
I mean by interrupting the secondary to add a diode, wouldn't I be messing with the action too much?
and would it look like a bunch of taps with a diode in each tap?
I seem to remember something like that one.

I guess you could try it?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on May 28, 2010, 02:18:53 AM

Quote from: the_big_m_in_ok on May 27, 2010, 01:42:21 PM
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg169507;topicseen#msg169507

The post above is on pg. 311, Reply #4663 of the "Jule Thief" thread.

If you read more of ist's posts and try to understand what his work is about, that might help to understand him better.

Then, again, ist is ist.
But, he does have more than a little experience in electronic bench experimentation and I've found his suggestions helpful in high voltage electronic engineering.

--Lee

Are you serious? He just put on a good act. The guy built a bunch of coils but he never put power to them. He just showed them off and bragged how smart he was. If anyone would ask him a question he would just say that you wouldn't understand. Out of the 3000 some posts that he has here, how many of them show an actual working device. He's all talk. I could go on but since he cannot defend himself, I'll leave it at that. There were a few good people that left this forum because of him.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on May 28, 2010, 07:13:53 AM

so no one else can tell me what this device is ment to be also

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on May 28, 2010, 07:25:43 AM

I recently took apart a borken scanner and removed a bunch of interesting gizmos; I'm not sure why the scanner failed, everything seemed to be owrking fine and then it just started in with the 'USB, short circuit, power drain detected' type message, on both windows and linux computers.

So, I removed the scanner lamp assembly - it's a very narrow florescent bublb with a driver board similar to the Joule Theif.

I attached a 9v battery to the source chords and it only lit half the tube dimly, then I connected a varaible voltage hobby source and found these results.

The bulb seems to light from a 12 volt source, consuming between 50 and 70 milliamps. At 18 volts, it consumes 105ma and only gets minimally brighter.

I'll have to measure the voltage output to see what that is like: ...there's a capacitor leading off of one of the wires to the lamp, ..just touching he lead with one of the DMM probes causes my nearby touchlamp to change settings and I can see sparks- I'll have to setup a series capacitor bank to measure it ( Later ).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on May 28, 2010, 07:43:46 AM

My attempts to build a high frequency Joule Thief resulted so far in an air coil coil that can drive 10 or 20 LEDs (one or two AAA or AA batteries) very brightly with about 80 to 150 KHz.

I know one can drive many more LEDS easily with a toroid, but at a much lower frequency. It may not be of much use, just an experiment.

L3 = 108 mm diameter, 200 turns, 0.3 mm enamelled wire, height of coil is 72 mm, wound on PVC tube, 3.8 mH

L1 + L2 = 15 turns bifilar, wound over one end of L3, 0.3 mm enamelled wire:

Base resistor 530 Ohm: 10 LEDs on L3, supply Voltag 0,8 to 1,5 Volt (one AAA or AA cell), 80 to 90 KHz, 60 to 130 mA

Base resistor 1.2 KOhm: 10 LEDS on L3, supply Voltage 1 to 3 Volt (two AAA or AA cells), 120 to 150 KHz, 40 to 70 mA

Base resistor 820 Ohm: 20 LEDs on L3, supply Voltage 1 to 3 Volt (two AAA or AA cells), 80 to 100 KHz, 70 to 200 mA

The circuit starts to swing with a supply voltage of about 0.6 Volt and starts to overheat with a supply voltage above 4 Volt (one would need a heat sink for the transistor and a 10 Watt base resistor). All works fine up to 3 Volt (two fresh AA or AAA cells) because the power consumption stays below 200 mA (0.6 Watt) with a base resistor of at least 100 Ohm.

The 10 or 20 LEDs shine very brightly. In case one has a steady power supply with 1,5 or 3 Volts, one can use more LEDs, up to 20 or 40 LEDs. I suggest 10 LEDS with one battery (AAA or AA) and 20 LEDs with two batteries (AAA or AA) in order to have the LEDs shine brightly even when the Voltage drops to 0.8 or 1.6 Volt.

I found that a full bridge rectifier between L3 and the LEDs uses up too much power, the net effect are dimmer LEDs. The Joule Thief circuit (also with air core coils) produces a "one sided signal" (on L3) that is much stronger on the positive side than on the negative side. Therefore a full bridge rectifier has more losses than gain. When capturing the energy from L3 in a capacitor, a full bridge rectifier might still introduce some gain, but not for LEDs.

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on May 28, 2010, 08:35:24 AM

About lighting a neon lamp from both sides:

The Joule Thief circuit produces a "one sided signal" on L3 (which one may call a "spike"), also with air core coils.

The scope shots below show this fact. Although the signal on L3 without much load looks almost symmetrical, it is never the less "top-heavy".

Once a small neon lamp is connected, the negative part of the signal almost colapses (and can not light the other side of the neon lamp).

This is the reason why one can light a neon from both sides, but only one side will glow, because the other side of the signal colapses. On a FL or CFL one end will be less bright.

Using a toroid (instead of an air core) the "one sidedness" of the signal is much more pronounced.

To produce a truly symmetrical signal on L3 one would need a more complicated "fly back circuit". See the Original "Andrinerii Revised Mazilli Driver" (far down on this page, last circuit):

http://wiki.4hv.org/index.php/Flyback#High_Power_Drivers.

On this page one can also read about a Joule Thief type circuit (and its high pitched squeal), see "Simple 2n3055 driver" (first circuit on the page).

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gyulasun on May 28, 2010, 09:01:19 AM

Hi Conrad,

Would like to suggest (if you have not tried) to load your L3 with another series string of LEDs, connected also in parallel with L3 but in the opposite diode direction than your present 21 LEDs are, to load the negative 100V peak output too. This way both of your original L3 peak to peak voltage (+240V and -100V) could be loaded, use 13-15 LEDs in series for loading the negative 100V and leave the series 21 LEDs as it is now shown.

Another suggestion would be: what if you use a fast diode for doing a half wave rectification for the positive 240V peak and you use another fast diode for the negative 100V rectification, both with one-one puffer capacitor, and you get a summed DC voltage between one positive cap end and one negative cap end?
Putting the above otherwise: this way in fact you build a voltage doubler which utilizes both the pos and neg peaks of the output waveform, see this link: http://www.play-hookey.com/ac_theory/ps_v_multipliers.html
This way you would have a single diode loss in every half wave versus the diode bridge double loss and also you may gain a little to avoid using the LEDs as rectifiers (because LEDs may have a diminishing rectifier efficiency if frequency increases.)

The third suggestion would be to use other transistor instead of the 2N3055, I mean bipolar types designed for switching, with low saturation voltage, high beta etc. I know the 2N3055 is cheap and robust and for the time being is almost "perfect" for this job, but later the type should be also a consideration. (Higher beta can reduce power dissipation in the base resistor.)

rgds, Gyula

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gyulasun on May 28, 2010, 09:06:25 AM

Conrad,

Oops, I have not noticed you addressed the negative peaks loading while I prepared the previous answer, so my first suggestion is answered with it?

Gyula

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on May 28, 2010, 09:23:46 AM

Gyula,

thank you very much for your ideas. I know that I have to do something when using LEDs (to protect them from the other "side" of the spikes) and http://www.play-hookey.com/ac_theory/ps_v_multipliers.html shows the way. That helps!

At the moment I am still very much interested in driving neons, FLs and CFLs, and they "eat up" almost completely the negative side. When they shorten through there is not much left from the signal to form a negative side. Therefore I ignored the problem with LEDs.

I am working on bigger air core coils to get at 1500 Volts (starting with 1 to 3 Volts). But also with air core coils it is difficult to reach higher frequencies. High inductance (which one gets with bigger air core coils) seems to be counter productive to high frequency? There is still much to learn for me and every comment from experienced experimenters helps.

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 28, 2010, 03:02:05 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on May 28, 2010, 07:13:53 AM
so no one else can tell me what this device is ment to be also

MrMag is correct. No one can explain it because IST probably didn't know what it was supposed to do either. That is the point. IST never explained anything or posted any diagrams or explanations of his work. He was always very cryptic.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on May 28, 2010, 04:48:19 PM

yeah i got to admit i had noticed im upto about page 330 and well all you ever seem to get from ist is rambling he done this and that but no one ever sees what he has done

the bit i found really funny was him trying to measure ampage with the meter leads still set to mesure voltage then absustly rip into some for pointing the fact out

[A author=Pirate88179 link=topic=6123.msg242727#msg242727 date=1275073325]
MrMag is correct. No one can explain it because IST probably didn't know what it was supposed to do either. That is the point. IST never explained anything or posted any diagrams or explanations of his work. He was always very cryptic.

Bill
[/quote]

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on May 28, 2010, 04:50:23 PM

jeanna have you manage to light a cfl from your earth battery experements yet

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on May 28, 2010, 05:15:35 PM

I really had no interaction with IST, but to be factual, the man has has a lot on the ball, in the field of technology.

Focus appears to be a struggle for him at times.

I know someone just like him...there's nobody that I would place ahead of him on the loyalty scale.

You just have to give those types their space...and only respond when prompted...eventually the nuggets are revealed.

Not always the nuggets sought, but nuggets nonetheless.

Its obvious Stefan has him on read only again...so to me, speaking of someone listening but unable to respond is kinda like speaking ill of the dead.

I know he's had dust ups with a few guys I like on here...which was painful to watch, but he doesn't seem to be a bad person...but like the guy I know, he will say anything that pops in his head in the heat of the moment.

Neither are generally abusive toward others, thats where someone would lose my respect...but thats not the case, so lets cut these guys a little slack.

Regards...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on May 28, 2010, 08:26:32 PM

Quote from: Cap-Z-ro on May 28, 2010, 05:15:35 PM
I really had no interaction with IST, but to be factual, the man has has a lot on the ball, in the field of technology.

Sorry, but in all actuality he had no clue at all. He just made it sound good. Anyone who has some understanding in"technology" would attest to this.

But I do agree about beating a dead horse. He can't respond so lets just forget about him. Harti should probably delete his posts also. They just add to the confusion.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on May 28, 2010, 09:14:16 PM

@all

Like a good song , the lyrics are vague enough so you need to make your own mind about it .

Ist was like that .

But , for someone that truly believe that he was helping and was beyond human comprehension , he showed many times his true nature and real intent .

He was a vicious and gain motivated , like no one .

And when i say that i mean , he got people to back him financially , and was making a living of of this site .

All and all , a bit dumb , and to me no better then crooks selling OU machine plans , and open source work as there own .

For those that , needs to contact him or see what he is up to .

http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?board=331.0

He moved his circus show over there ...

@ist

You got your self banned like a big boy all by your self , it is time to master your domain , learn to managed your ego first , it is in your way dude , its a funny thing the Ego it prevents you from seeing your self , by making you react violently , and usually insult others by telling them to grow up , other funny thing about the Ego is it make you tell others what YOU need to do .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 29, 2010, 07:48:57 AM

Does anyone know where Hazens went?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on May 29, 2010, 08:36:17 AM

yeah hazens has some bloody good results from what im reading at moment and easy to understand to lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on May 29, 2010, 09:37:46 AM

Yes most of my more powerful JT's are modeled after his designs.

He has not been around for some time now!

???

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on May 29, 2010, 05:08:37 PM

@stprue

I would like to ask you to post one or two of your more powerful JT's (may be modeled after hazens designs).

You (or hazens) propably posted them somewhere before, but it is a very difficult job to find good posts in hundreds if not thousands of pages.

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gyulasun on May 29, 2010, 05:51:55 PM

Hi Conrad,

here is hazens1 all posts:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=12452

Gyula

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on May 29, 2010, 06:25:52 PM

@ Gyula,

thank you for the link, hazens did post nice stuff, I have to go through it in more detail tomorrow.

Can I find myself the posts of other people? I wanted to do that several times but could not figure out how it works?

How did you get hazens number (at the end of the link)?

What one sees, hazens stopped posting last summer (at leat as "hazens").

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on May 29, 2010, 08:34:42 PM

SO I picked up 17 flatbed scanners from a thrift store recently - decent price too - I got 17 Cold Cathode florescent tubes and 17 inverter boards ..i found one board made by the Garear company which only uses 30ma at 16 volts.

There was quite a bit of nice electronics there two, i must have 50 doubled sided mirrors and two dozen stepper motors now. Theses solid stainless steel rods are nice as well.

On a second thought, does anyone know of any place that will pay for recyclable circuit boards? ... I've had a recent buildup.

Tomorrow I plan to work with a few JTC's and power one of these lamps.

..got a lot of plastic to get rid of also.

These lamps run cold ( relative to their CFL counterparts ), as their name implies, they produce very little heat and a nice light. some of the boards use quite a bit of electricity, so they'll most liekly end up useless - I'll probably be diagramming the most efficient cool running one. I've been testing with a 12, 16, and 18 volt source.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on May 30, 2010, 04:32:59 AM

@ jadaro2600

It would be very interesting to know at what frequency the Cold Cathode florescent tubes in your 17 flatbed scanners are driven?

Since I got interested in the frequency of Joule Thief circuits I found out that the conventional "CFL, FL, neon an cold cathode lamp drivers" (I looked at), are driven with a frequency in the audio range (which I find annoying).

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gyulasun on May 30, 2010, 04:59:33 AM

Hi Conrad, I have sent you a Personal Message. Gyula

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on May 30, 2010, 01:02:15 PM

Simple high frequency (115 KHz to 125 KHz) air core Joule Thief:

Resonanceman told me a few weeks ago in his Reply #13352 that various air cores (even some wire coiled in a heap or twisted wire) will work.

So, I built a very simple air core coil (just L1 + L2, no secondary L3) with some left over wire from a rather old telephone installation.

It swings with about 115 KHz to 125 KHz (as I like it) and can drive 5 LEDs very brightly with about 1 to 1.3 Volt (100 to 150 mA power consumption because the LEDs really shine).

This is geared to a single AAA or AA rechargeable battery and could be turned into a simple flash light. You can use 7 LEDs with 1.5 Volt, or 3 LEDs with 0.6 Volt.

The point of this post is again the high frequency of an air core Joule Thief (in comparison to a toroid Joule Thief).

I also like the idea that one can take a card board tube instaed of hunting for a toroid. Winding a spool is also easier (either by hand or with a crude machine turned by hand) than fiddling wire through a toroid.

My next attempt will be an air core with 250 mm diameter and 250 turns of 0.2 mm enamelled wire. According to my secret calculations ;D (or rather unfounded estimates) it should light CFLs. The big question and my motivation is its frequency?

Some one in this forum told me about this calculator (sorry I forgot who it was):
http://www.dl5swb.de/html/mini_ring_core_calculator.htm (very good, I use it a lot for my air core coils)

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 30, 2010, 01:52:44 PM

Conrad:

Nice job on the air core. The only potential problem I see with this approach vs the ferrite toroids is the efficiency will not be as good. The ferrite demagnetizes very quickly and causes very good spikes as the field collapses. These spikes are what we are using to drive stuff and, I could be wrong, but I don't think you will be able to run as many leds for as long a time without a ferrite core. Be interesting to see though.

My JT are silent after adding a strong neo to raise the freq. I only needed to do this to 2 of them as most of them were already way above hearing frequencies. Even my cat cannot hear them. Maybe you can try different windings and tuning to get them to be quiet?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on May 30, 2010, 04:27:20 PM

@ Pirate88179 and all experimenters who like to think about frequency in a Joule Thief

I have not studdied electronics, but I try to learn as much as I can about it. In the last months I found out (from this forum, from articles on the internet and from books):

- A Joule Thief circuit is a resonant circuit with a coil and a capacitance: the coil is L1 and the capacitance is given by the base resistor together with the base/collector of the transistor.

- The frequency limit of the Joule Thief circuit depends basically on the inductance (Henry) of one loop of wire over the core. Higher inductance implies lower frequency.

- For practical reasons one needs at least about 5 turns of L1 on a toroid and 15 turns of L1 on an air core.

- Because a good toroid induces a much higher inductance in 5 turns of wire than an air core induces in 15 turns of wire, one can reach much higher frequencies with an air core (up to 200 times higher frequencies).

Efficiency:

- A good toroid (with high permeability) needs few turns of wire to produce a high Voltage on L3. In this sense it is "efficient". (A very small space is occupied by the coil, very little wire is necessary.)

- An air core needs many turns of wire to produce a high voltage on L3, or one uses a bigger core (which is possible up to a certain practical limit). In this sense an air core is "inefficient". (A big space is occupied by the coil, lots of wire is necessary.)

- But the "energy" transferred over equivalent coils is roughly (some practical limitations apply) the same, no matter what core one uses.

One more thing to understand:

- A toroid might produce 6.000 spikes with a 1000 Volt per second on L3; this will need a certain energy on the input.

- An air coil might produce 60.000 spikes with 1000 Volt per second on L3; this will need ten times more energy on the input.

No we can ask the right question about efficiency:

Will 300 LEDs driven with 60.000 spikes of 1000 Volt per second shine ten times more brightly than 300 LEDs driven with 6.000 spikes of 1000 Volt per second?

For all practical reasons (within sensible margins) they will shine ten times more brightly and will use ten times more energy.

Remarks:

- If one uses a toroid with the same low permeability (Al value) as an air core, one will need the same high number of wire-turns as with an air core and the same size of core.

- The Tesla coil shows that an air core can also reach much higher Voltages than a toroid. This is because of its size. One could also do it with a very big and very low permeability toroid. But this would be even "less practical" (but not "less efficient").

Greetings, Conrad

P.S.: I do not want to be the smart Alec, I just cite conventional theory as found in books.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on May 30, 2010, 09:42:52 PM

Quote from: conradelektro on May 30, 2010, 04:32:59 AM
@ jadaro2600

It would be very interesting to know at what frequency the Cold Cathode florescent tubes in your 17 flatbed scanners are driven?

Since I got interested in the frequency of Joule Thief circuits I found out that the conventional "CFL, FL, neon an cold cathode lamp drivers" (I looked at), are driven with a frequency in the audio range (which I find annoying).

Greetings, Conrad

I'll turn one on and see - to note however, none of the driver boards are making any noise what so ever. Most scanner's stepper motors make the sci-fi noises.

There are two transistors on the circuit I've measured, across the E-C junctions, they're running at ~56.6kHz. E-B is at ~58.2kHz

I haven't measured the voltage at the tube, but it's connected like a trigger coil would .Voltage there causes the meter to malfunction, so I would need to build a series capacitor bank to measure it. ...in fact, this model is connected ... coil-lead 1 - tube lead 1, tube lead 2 - capacitor lead 1, capacitor lead 2 to coil lead 2.

coil-tube-capacitor-coil

- - - - - -

I think it would be nice to tune this a bit, or rebuild another one using some of the circuits here on the forum. The NPN PNP configuration uses very little ma ..

These particular 12 inch CCFL's are trigger-on 1000v, staying on at around 600 or so volts ( as was found through researching the available data on the replacement lamps. It seems they're available in a variety of lengths and cut-on voltages.

This may be a very nice source of light for a joule thief to power.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 31, 2010, 03:22:29 AM

Wilby made a beer light out of a ccfl driven by a JT somewhere way back in our topic here. I am thinking it was about a year ago but, I have no idea where this was posted in all of our pages.

Jadaro, this is cool you bringing this up here again as I always wanted to play with those tubes. Allelectronics sells those tubes and the ccfl driver circuits but I didn't want to use grid power for mine, I wanted to try what Wilby did.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on May 31, 2010, 03:05:54 PM

Can someone please point my to johnnydavro's SEC circuit diagram; it seems to have gotten lost recently in the mush of my hard-drive, and also, the search for it on this website turns up the word security ( which is quite frequently discussed on this forum ).

Quote from: Pirate88179 on May 31, 2010, 03:22:29 AM
Wilby made a beer light out of a ccfl driven by a JT somewhere way back in our topic here. I am thinking it was about a year ago but, I have no idea where this was posted in all of our pages.

Jadaro, this is cool you bringing this up here again as I always wanted to play with those tubes. Allelectronics sells those tubes and the ccfl driver circuits but I didn't want to use grid power for mine, I wanted to try what Wilby did.

Bill

If anyone knows where the post is for what Bill just mentioned, let me know; I would like to see it eventually.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on June 01, 2010, 07:33:54 AM

30 % ENERGY SAVER
http://freeenergyinfo.narod2.ru/minimizator/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Km0MlEBWkn4

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 01, 2010, 03:21:49 PM

@ conradelektro

Good work with your air core coil. If you want to light a tube with air core coil you might want to try this. More info several months back.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on June 01, 2010, 04:16:36 PM

@ xee2

Thank you very much for the information about the slayer - xee replication.

This is exactly what I was looking for ;D : a Slayer-circuit where the big air coil on the basis of the transistor is not left open but connected to a FL, CFL or neon. My expectations are still more humble, just a nice light. Transmission of energy or overunity comes later (once the simple stuff bores me).

I will try to find the posts about this circuit to learn what was said about it a few months ago.

You could make it a lot easier for me (and other would be replicators), by posting your most important findings and conclusions about this circuit. Did you see some drawbacks or problems? How bright was the lamp? And as always my obsession with the frequency, could you measure it?

Please forgive the many questions.

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on June 02, 2010, 12:17:49 AM

I think I have a hoarding problem - so I've been disassembling all of my electronics that I don't need and that won't sell for any reasonable amount of money at a garage sale. I've found a lot of lenses lately ... I've also found that toys contain some interesting reusable parts.

- - -

Also, has anyone thought about the fact that the cold cathode type FL tubes are dim-able?

I think I'll use one of the npn-pnp variants on a driver circuit for one and do some testing - hopefully I'll be posting some results tomorrow night.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 02, 2010, 12:36:39 AM

@ conradelektro

Quote from: conradelektro on June 01, 2010, 04:16:36 PM
You could make it a lot easier for me (and other would be replicators), by posting your most important findings and conclusions about this circuit. Did you see some drawbacks or problems? How bright was the lamp? And as always my obsession with the frequency, could you measure it?

See previous posts. I think they were at end of March.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Poit on June 02, 2010, 02:31:55 AM

Sorry for the newbe question.... I haven't read all 908 pages in this thread :o

My question/s
1: Is this just a step up transformer? I mean, like, does it simply just increase the volts at the sacrifice of amps?
2: If my first question is answered 'no', then why not loop the increased output back to the input thus creating a closed loop system?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 02, 2010, 02:49:43 AM

Quote from: Poit on June 02, 2010, 02:31:55 AM
Sorry for the newbe question.... I haven't read all 908 pages in this thread :o

My question/s
1: Is this just a step up transformer? I mean, like, does it simply just increase the volts at the sacrifice of amps?
2: If my first question is answered 'no', then why not loop the increased output back to the input thus creating a closed loop system?

Welcome to the group. You are going to hate me for saying this but, please read at least most of the previous posts.

The JT is much more than just a transformer otherwise we would have called this the transformer topic. I don't mean this to sound harsh but, there is so much about this circuit that no one could possibly answer you in a single post or possibly 200 posts.

The JT, by itself, is not an OU device as far as I know, but, it has the potential to be part of an OU circuit. If it was as simple as linking the JT back into itself, one of us here would have done that long ago.

You have asked a good question and I am sorry I don't have a better, more simple answer. Feel free to jump in and maybe someone else here can answer you better than my attempt.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 02, 2010, 08:13:29 AM

the problem with looping the joule thief back into itself is that thay is not enogth current comming out of the device to counter balence whats been put in plus currewnt is what charges the battery not the voltage charging with voltage only dosent charge batterys only false charges them the way i find if a battery is charged or not is to have a 3 amp meter and connect these to ethier end of the battery a no no i know but if the bettery if fully charged i find it shows the ampage of the battery aka 2500mah batterys shows on an 3amp meter will be 2.5amps correct me if i am wrong but this is what i found i tried the voltage trick but all my dead rechargable show 1.30volts thats means they are charged but you try and power anything they wont work

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 02, 2010, 12:38:13 PM

ok here is my idea a joule thief running off an earth battery to power a pulse moter ok easy enogth i think you will say but how about using the motion of the pulse motor to turn a modified cdrom moter into a dynimo aka 3 phase generator as i see it this would give the higher amps needed for larg battery charging what you think i dont have a clue were to start this for any up for it

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on June 02, 2010, 12:56:35 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on June 02, 2010, 12:38:13 PM
ok here is my idea a joule thief running off an earth battery to power a pulse moter ok easy enogth i think you will say but how about using the motion of the pulse motor to turn a modified cdrom moter into a dynimo aka 3 phase generator as i see it this would give the higher amps needed for larg battery charging what you think i dont have a clue were to start this for any up for it

This is correct, a false reading is generated by pulse charging a battery - it only frees the charge in close proximity to the battery's internal electrodes. It usually only provides breaking down of crystal formation on electrodes and though it may be be good for charging a battery it is good for reviving on that is old in such a way to make it charge better on another device. Batteries generally require a relatively continuous current to charge.

The amp meter trick will short the battery and give you some idea of the sudden current available.

I think that there is more current available from a battery than is noted. A 2500mAh battery is rated thus because over the course of one hour it will provide that many milliamps ..it doesn't just 'die' per se, there remains charge available, ... I think one of the things we do here with the Joule Thief is extract energy in shorts bursts of current and thus greatly prolong the expected life of the battery by dividing the current used and stretching it out as much as possible.

If you try to measure the current a JTC is using, you should always put a capacitor across the terminals of the amp meter, preferably an electrolytic. This smooths out the spikes from current consumption and makes Digital meters more accurate. There has been discussions on the best way to measure current, but smoothing it out and letting all of it flow through the meter seems most logical. You would also have to know the leakage current of the capacitor to do a scientific measurement.

One thing to note is the 'peculiar nature of the battery' as I call it; in this way, there is voltage available and low current suitable for powering a simple harmonic oscillator such as the joule thief in resonant inductor-capacitor-resistor style circuits. In these modes, powering, what I like to call 'voltage oriented' light sources such as LED's CFL, CCFL, Neons, etc. ... there needn't be large quantities of current used, as a result, a JTC can usually run until the voltage at the source is substantially lower that what is technically considered a dead battery ( 90% original voltage ).

I operated one on a 1.5v battery whose charge had fallen to 0.6v. The selection of components is critical, as the transistors still need to be able to turn on ( therefore, it may be prudent to use special transistors which will cut on at very low voltages, even a MOSFET could be used with additional components to ensure this ).

I believe that the closed loop system may be possible but not yet exploited: the fact remains that such a live circuit may be sustained from some distant source oscillating at some harmonic of the resonance frequency of the closed loop system - this has been discussed on several other threads in/on the forum.

Quote from: Poit on June 02, 2010, 02:31:55 AM
Sorry for the newbe question.... I haven't read all 908 pages in this thread :o

My question/s
1: Is this just a step up transformer? I mean, like, does it simply just increase the volts at the sacrifice of amps?
2: If my first question is answered 'no', then why not loop the increased output back to the input thus creating a closed loop system?

see above; also, you can change the number of posts per page displayed in your account settings, ..this seems to make things easier for a lot of us.

The JTC is in fact a step up transformer, in this case, a blocking oscillator, but the many variant circuits demonstrate that very little current is needed in order to do this. In other words, it is essentially a voltage oriented device.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 02, 2010, 01:01:38 PM

so if we dumped the power from the joule thief thru a bridge rectifire into a capaciter could we then charge a battery i belive if we can get the same mpage out to that going in then popetual motion is acomplished but that fact is we wont ethern more output then input to be able to make use of this

i mean we put 10ma in and get 100ma out we have 90ma to play with something like lights a pulse motor to get grater output etc

Quote from: jadaro2600 on June 02, 2010, 12:56:35 PM
This is correct, a false reading in generated by pulse charging a battery - it only frees the charge in close proximity to the battery's internal electrodes. Batteries generally require a relatively continuous current to charge.

The amp meter trick will short the battery and give you some idea of the sudden current available.

I think that there is more current available from a battery than is noted. A 2500mAh battery is rated thus because over the course of one hour it will provide that many milliamps ..it doesn't just 'die' per se, there remains charge available, ... I think one of the things we do here with the Joule Thief is extract energy in shorts bursts of current and thus greatly prolong the expected life of the battery by dividing the current used and stretching it out as much as possible

One thing to not is the 'peculiar nature of the battery' as I call it; in this way, there is voltage available and low current suitable for powering a simple harmonic oscillator such as the joule thief in resonant inductor-capacitor-resistor style circuits. In these modes, powering, what I like to call 'voltage oriented' light sources such as LED's CFL, CCFL, Neons, etc. ... there needn't be large quantities of current used, as a result, a JTC can usually run until the voltage at the source is substantially lower that what is technically considered a dead battery ( 90% original voltage ).

I operated on on a 1.5v battery whose charge had fallen to 0.6v. The selection of components is critical, as the transistors still need to be able to turn on ( therefore, it may be prudent to use special transistors which will cut on at very low voltages, even a MOSFET could be used with additional components to ensure this ).

I believe that the closed loop system may be possible but not yet exploited: the fact remains that such a live circuit may be sustained from some distant source oscillating at some harmonic of the resonance frequency of the closed loop system - this has been discussed on many threads on the forum.

see above; also, you can change the number of posts per page displayed in your account settings, ..this seems to make things easier for a lot of us.

The JTC is in fact a step up transformer, in this case, a blocking oscillator, but the many variant circuits demonstrate that very little current is needed in order to do this. In other words, it is essentially a voltage oriented device.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on June 02, 2010, 01:05:44 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on June 02, 2010, 12:38:13 PM
ok here is my idea a joule thief running off an earth battery to power a pulse moter ok easy enogth i think you will say but how about using the motion of the pulse motor to turn a modified cdrom moter into a dynimo aka 3 phase generator as i see it this would give the higher amps needed for larg battery charging what you think i dont have a clue were to start this for any up for it

If you hack up an old CD player, make sure you use a portable one. ..these have the locking mechanisms on their axis which makes it easy to mount a disk as a flywheel. Also, those motors are usually brushless induction motors - I find these quite difficult to re-use because of the inferior ceramic/mush style magnetic components ( like PC fans ). The best part of that is the locking mechanism which holds the CD.

If you get ahold of the eye, you can pop off the lens and shine light through it backwards, it creates a very pretty light dislay on the wall ( you'll see the projection of patterns from the glass, it looks like a cymatics diagram ).

Quote from: dasimpson on June 02, 2010, 01:01:38 PM
so if we dumped the power from the joule thief thru a bridge rectifire into a capaciter could we then charge a battery i belive if we can get the same mpage out to that going in then popetual motion is acomplished but that fact is we wont ethern more output then input to be able to make use of this

i mean we put 10ma in and get 100ma out we have 90ma to play with something like lights a pulse motor to get grater output etc

gadgetmall has been working on this, he has circuits which do this ( they are arguable, but work in various fashions though ) ..his proposed methods are still being honed, check the applications for overunity section, you may find more information there.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 02, 2010, 01:09:02 PM

well i was thinking of makeing a unit i have a floppy cd motor here that is 3phase now from my windmill investigations i can changhe the 3phase output to single phase the motor was just a idea as they are very flat and would well make easy baring and fly wheel points but i just thoght mabe a hd motor might do better but think the rpm of that moter to get out what would go in be to high i guess rewinding the stature for a les rpm might be best but that is beyond my knoladge
i come up with lots if ideas just no way to implerment and try them

[A author=jadaro2600 link=topic=6123.msg243290#msg243290 date=1275498344]
If you hack up an old CD player, make sure you use a portable one. ..these have the locking mechanisms on their axis which makes it easy to mount a disk as a flywheel. Also, those motors are usually brushless induction motors - I find these quite difficult to re-use because of the inferior ceramic/mush style magnetic components ( like PC fans ). The best part of that is the locking mechanism which holds the CD.
[/quote]

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 02, 2010, 01:13:12 PM

@ conradelektro

Here are a few more items from previous posts that might be helpful.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on June 02, 2010, 01:14:25 PM

Check for edits, we seem to be posting at the same time.

The floppy disk drives are a pain to get apart, maybe I have inferior 'refuse' laying about, but haven't gotten one worth keeping, on top of this, they're slow, remember. :P

There have been studies about the gauss strength of magnets, you may be able to create a very powerful motor with very thin magnets to maintain the profile. I believe that the thinner magnets are just as powerful at their poles as the thicker ones of similar other dimensions ( length and width ).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 02, 2010, 01:16:12 PM

well the idea was the slow drive shouldent that out out power at lower rpm's ? and to the magnets bit erm brain fart A
floppy drive are easy to take apart if you know how but what i got was a flat unit with a flat unit disk under that they was a 12 pole stature wired in 3 phase messed this one up and used the wire for testing joule thief but next one i with cut the tracers and solder 4 wires to board for take offs and will find out then how good it will work

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on June 02, 2010, 03:24:41 PM

@ xee2: thank you, that was nice! It is so difficult to find something in this heap.

@ all:

I found a very interesting Joule Thief variant, which was posted by a person calling himself Groundloop2003 (I forgot where I found it, see the image below). This circuit reduces the base current and seems to give very high frequencies (I got 1.2 MHz).

With this circuit I built a very low power Joule Thief which lights a single red LED with a strange â€œcellâ€ (of course with an air coil).

The cell can be seen on YouTube, someone made a cool video about such cells (which inspired me): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGdpa3GKN34

There is also a thread about these cells (which I read before I built the cell): http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=972.msg243194#new (Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison)

The Cell:

0,3 mm Copper sheet 120 x 120 mm
2 mm tile cement
0,5 mm Aluminium sheet with little holes 120 x 120

Some people make very complicated mixtures instead of using â€œtile cementâ€ (which I had in the house for a recent tile job in my bath room). I just wanted to see whether I get any current out of such a strange thing; and contrary to my negative expectations, the â€œreduced base current Joule Thiefâ€ gets enough electricity out of it for one red LED (a white LED needs too much and does not shine with this cell). An ordinary Joule Thief circuit might just blink a red LED with this cell if the base resistor is too low.

The cell produces about 0.2 to 0.4 mA at up to 1.17 Volt.

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 02, 2010, 03:38:38 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on June 02, 2010, 12:38:13 PM
ok here is my idea a joule thief running off an earth battery to power a pulse moter ok easy enogth i think you will say but how about using the motion of the pulse motor to turn a modified cdrom moter into a dynimo aka 3 phase generator as i see it this would give the higher amps needed for larg battery charging what you think i dont have a clue were to start this for any up for it

I did that last year, check out my videos. I ran a Bedini motor from my EER or earth battery. I have been using supercaps with my EER for some time now. It is a good way to capture the high spikes and preserve them for usable power. it works really well.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 02, 2010, 03:39:34 PM

now would you be able to use the caps in parallel for more ampage ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 02, 2010, 03:46:44 PM

How many amps do you need? Just my one boost-cap is rated at 3,000 amps! That is enough to melt a very heavy wire. Boost caps can be placed in series or parallel for unlimited numbers. Regular supercaps usually are not to have more than 3. I have no idea what happens if you go higher than that but, all of the things I have read says that.

Bill

PS If you use the 3,000 amps a single boost cap will not last long without recharging. I didn't want to give the impression that one will put out 3,000 amps all day...it will not. Google Maxwell boostcaps to see what they are about.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 02, 2010, 03:49:45 PM

no what i ment was is after the joule thief for storing the high voltage i just wonted to know if it would stor the ampage there also 3,000 amps if like a battery i would guess would depend on the draw to how long it would last

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 02, 2010, 03:59:58 PM

one thing i must note put the load on befor starting the joule thief i have blown a good few leds lol my joule thief is at about 110 to 120volts at the cap after the bridge rectifre but it will also limit to what ever the load voltage is

i mean i put an led on the cap it mesured 2.7 volts i put 3 on it mesured 7.4 volts strange dont you think

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 02, 2010, 04:00:19 PM

Yes, exactly right as I understand it. Higher amp draw means you may need several b-caps in parallel. I just saw in another topic a fellow posted that Maxwell is selling their 3,000 Farad B-caps for like $90.00!!! That sounds like an incredible deal. That is almost 5 times the capacitance of mine.

Yes, you can dump a JT's output into a supercap. I don't rectify it as I was thinking that wastes some energy. Most JT circuits appear to output pulsed dc and not a true ac anyway. The big caps capture those spikes and make them usable.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 02, 2010, 04:02:02 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 02, 2010, 04:00:19 PM
Yes, exactly right as I understand it. Higher amp draw means you may need several b-caps in parallel. I just saw in another topic a fellow posted that Maxwell is selling their 3,000 Farad B-caps for like $90.00!!! That sounds like an incredible deal. That is almost 5 times the capacitance of mine.

Yes, you can dump a JT's output into a supercap. I don't rectify it as I was thinking that wastes some energy. Most JT circuits appear to output pulsed dc and not a true ac anyway. The big caps capture those spikes and make them usable.

Bill

ok on that note i will give it a go with out the bridge ill just make sure to note what lead of the secoundry is posetive

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 02, 2010, 04:23:25 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on June 02, 2010, 08:13:29 AM
the problem with looping the joule thief back into itself is that thay is not enogth current comming out of the device to counter balence whats been put in plus currewnt is what charges the battery not the voltage charging with voltage only dosent charge batterys only false charges them the way i find if a battery is charged or not is to have a 3 amp meter and connect these to ethier end of the battery a no no i know but if the bettery if fully charged i find it shows the ampage of the battery aka 2500mah batterys shows on an 3amp meter will be 2.5amps correct me if i am wrong but this is what i found i tried the voltage trick but all my dead rechargable show 1.30volts thats means they are charged but you try and power anything they wont work

Dasimpson

How many rechargable batterys have you tried to charge?
How dead were they?

The ability to charge a battery using spikes is well known......
You can often recondition batterys that would be considered dead.
But sometimes dead is dead.
Often people do not understand that batterys are damaged if they are deep discharged........each type of battery has a particular level of discharge that can be tolerated ....... For a standard 12 lead acid battery the level is around 10.5V .......discharging the battery any lower may damage it.

Jeanna has a thread about charging batterys with impulses .

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8950.0

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 02, 2010, 04:26:12 PM

dead is when my mp3 player says no battery left normaly about 1 volt but after an houre there back to been 1.2 maybe more but they is no ampage there when i charged with joule thief i did one for a few mins another for an hours and so on ethern after a day the battery was saying charged by volts but not by ampage as they still would not power my mp3 player so that tells me they are not charging

and as i say again unless you have the batterys trickle charge comeing from your joule thief they wont charge but they can be broght back from the dead as my rc remote battery has been it would not charge run it for an hour on the joule thief i then put it in the charger and it is now fully charged and working

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 02, 2010, 04:32:33 PM

as another point i used the proper charger and all batterys are charged i have 12 aa in total i tried 6 with the joule thief and 6 with the bettery charger same length of time the joule thief fails but reconditions them so no loss really i guess just pitty it wont charge them properly i now have all 12 vully charged i have just put a 2500mah aa on the input of joule thief and a 650mah aaa battery on the output i will leave this for a day see what happens if this wont run a motor then this dose not work as i have run the motor with a properly charged one

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 02, 2010, 05:30:33 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on June 02, 2010, 04:32:33 PM
as another point i used the proper charger and all batterys are charged i have 12 aa in total i tried 6 with the joule thief and 6 with the bettery charger same length of time the joule thief fails but reconditions them so no loss really i guess just pitty it wont charge them properly i now have all 12 vully charged i have just put a 2500mah aa on the input of joule thief and a 650mah aaa battery on the output i will leave this for a day see what happens if this wont run a motor then this dose not work as i have run the motor with a properly charged one

Dasimpson

Your 1 day charge will not make much difference.

John Bedini says it takes something like 20 discharge/recharge cycles to condition a battery.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 02, 2010, 05:39:51 PM

all i know is i had a battery that read 0.00 on my meter i tried loads of time with charger to charge it nothing put it on the joule thief reciving end for an hour it read 1.31 volts but but very mah put it in the charger for the 15 hours at 200mah and is now holding full charge better then any of the others

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 02, 2010, 06:18:49 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on June 02, 2010, 05:39:51 PM
all i know is i had a battery that read 0.00 on my meter i tried loads of time with charger to charge it nothing put it on the joule thief reciving end for an hour it read 1.31 volts but but very mah put it in the charger for the 15 hours at 200mah and is now holding full charge better then any of the others

Dasimpson

That is a great example of a joule thief reconditioning a battery.

That is just a start though.

To get the most from your battery use it and recharge it with a JT .......it might not seem like the JT is charging it very well at first...... after a few cycles the JT should charge it better........I understand it takes about 20 cycles to get the most out of it.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 02, 2010, 06:23:56 PM

ill give it ago

i might just take the 2 small solar panels i have run them to a aa battery then run that to the joule thief hopefully i will be able to charge other batterys also

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Poit on June 02, 2010, 06:55:40 PM

Thanks for all the replies.......... I guess I have a lot of reading to do :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on June 03, 2010, 02:15:53 AM

Hi All,
I have done quite a lot of experimenting over the last few months with radiant charging using the back EMF from various circuits including JT's. As Gary mentioned you do have to keep cycling the cells (charge/discharge) over many times. Both pulse frequency and mark/space ratio plays a crucial part in how successful this technique is. You are correct that a dead cell can be brought back to life and show a potential voltage, but no real useful current. You need to study the works of John Bedini and others to get a grasp of using these charge methods successfully. I have achieved mixed results with both nicad and lead acid cells... the methods tend to be rather critical, and I'm still working on these projects.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 03, 2010, 06:51:50 AM

ok so to give this the real test everyone says it needs
do i wont to use a sedondory with a diode to stop bleedback from the battery like you do with a solar panel or would i put the out into a cap then diode and into a battery

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 03, 2010, 07:37:22 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 link=topic=6123.msg243314#msg243314 A=1275507518
I did that last year, check out my videos. I ran a Bedini motor from my EER or earth battery. I have been using supercaps with my EER for some time now. It is a good way to capture the high spikes and preserve them for usable power. it works really well.

Bill

my idea was to use the pulses from the joule thief instead of a read switch but i relise that maybe the joule thief pusles are to fast so i undertsnad that charging a cap befor the bedini motor might be the right way to go but to keep the spark down on the reed switch wouldent a condenser from a cars point system do this best as thats exactly there job on a car

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 03, 2010, 07:40:15 AM

question the uf rating on a cap is higher the uf the higher the ampage ?

eg what one of these is higher i 470uf or the 2.7uf the resion i ask thsi also is that the 2.7 is a bigger cap in pysical size but that coul ebe cos of the higher voltage rating ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on June 03, 2010, 10:23:08 AM

yes, the higher the number the more capacitance.

Exactly. 470uf is higher but the 2.7 will have a higher voltage rating

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 03, 2010, 10:26:21 AM

cool glad i have that much figured now for the rest lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 03, 2010, 01:01:37 PM

Why do you need a reed switch? A 2N3055 works well with the Bedini bifilar coil and you can get 16,000 rpm pretty easy. Folks using sphere magnets have hit over 300,000 rpm.

I know many folks use reed switches on the Bedini but I have never understood why they use a mechanical device when a transistor will do the job with very low power input.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on June 03, 2010, 01:56:05 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 03, 2010, 01:01:37 PM
Why do you need a reed switch? A 2N3055 works well with the Bedini bifilar coil and you can get 16,000 rpm pretty easy. Folks using sphere magnets have hit over 300,000 rpm.

I know many folks use reed switches on the Bedini but I have never understood why they use a mechanical device when a transistor will do the job with very low power input.

Bill
Hi Bill, It's all about maximising the base current of the 2n3055 so that you achieve high collector switching currents, a reed switch is the simplest way of achieving a very high base current for the gain of the transistor. But I agree with your comments... you can of course use other means of driving the base as a reed switch is not the ideal device being mechanical and prone to wear etc. One of my pulse motor designs use a slotted opto coupling device which drives a Mosfet gate (BTS117)... very reliable. Kind Regards

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 03, 2010, 07:11:38 PM

yeah i only just found the reenginered joule thief idea most videos showed the read switch you see
i do like the transister idea better and if i do think of going bedini i will use it

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 04, 2010, 12:26:50 PM

ok i just read this and worked out that if the winding gor the base of transister ic clock wise it is better to wind the secondory clock wise to get best power draw as the flyback is higher then the forwed pass of voltage would i be correct ?

Quote from: Pardon link=topic=6123.msg166938#msg166938 A=1238477344
I found this so i thought i would post it here. i hope this may help out

THE TRANSFORMER
The secret of this circuit is the transformer.
We normally think of a transformer as a device with an input and output, with the voltage on the input and output being connected by a term called "turns ratio."
If the output has more turns than the input, the output voltage will be higher. This is called a setup
transformer. If the output has less turns than the input, the output voltage will be lower.
This applies to "normal" transformers where the voltage is rising and falling at a regular rate, commonly called a "sinewave."

But the transformer in this circuit is different.
The voltage applied to it is not rising and falling smoothly, and thus it does not work in normal "transformer mode."
The voltage is being applied and then turned off. When the voltage is applied, the primary winding (the 90 turn winding) produces magnetic flux. When the voltage is turned off, the magnetic flux collapses and produces a VERY HIGH voltage (in the REVERSE DIRECTION), in all the windings.
Our transformer is really a coil in flyback mode with a feedback winding.
The feedback winding delivers a voltage to the transistor to turn it on HARDER. If the winding is connected around the wrong way, the circuit will not work.

The other important factor about the transformer is the core material. There are many different types of
ferrite. Ferrite is a type of iron which is powdered very finely so that the magnetic lines that pass through the particles do not create eddy-currents. These eddy currents absorb the magnetic flux.
The circuit also employs a term called RE-GENERATION. This is the effect where a circuit is turned on slightly by a component (the base resistor in this example) and then the transistor turns itself on more and more until it is fully turned on. The feedback winding is configured so that the voltage it produces (actually the current it produces) is fed into the base to turn the transistor on. Thus the feedback winding is very clever. It produces energy and is delivered in a particular direction - in
other words it can be a positive or negative energy. In this case it produces positive energy, to turn the
transistor on harder.
This is called POSITIVE FEEDBACK as it turns the transistor ON during the active part of the cycle.
Now we come to the MAIN, PRIMARY or FLYBACK winding. This winding produces a high voltage during part of the cycle (the FLYBACK part of the cycle) and this is passed to the LED.
If the LED is removed, the transformer produces a high voltage with a low current, but when the LED is
inserted, an amazing thing happens. The energy from the transformer is converted to a lower voltage with a higher current. What actually happens is the LED absorbs the energy and turns it to light as soon as the voltage rises to 3.6v. We could achieve the same low-voltage, high current requirement, with less turns, but the number of turns has to be determined so the core does not saturate.
The voltage for the LED is produced when the transistor is switched off and the magnetic flux in the ferrite core collapses. The speed of the collapse produces a very high voltage in the OPPOSITE DIRECTION and that's why a positive voltage emerges from the end connected to the LED. These two facts are important to remember. The other important fact is called "transformer action." This is the action of magnetic flux. When a voltage is applied to a winding of a transformer or a coil of wire, a current will flow and this will produce magnetic flux. If another winding is present, the magnetic flux will cut the turns of this extra coil and produce a voltage in it. However, there is a very important point to remember. The magnetic flux can be: EXPANDING, STATIONARY or CONTRACTING.
When the magnetic flux is expanding, a voltage will appear in the second winding mentioned above.
When the magnetic flux is stationary, NO VOLTAGE will appear in the second winding.
When the magnetic flux is contracting a voltage will appear in the second winding with REVERSE
POLARITY. The size (the amplitude or "value") of the reverse voltage will depend on the speed of the collapsing magnetic flux. If the flux collapses quickly, the amplitude will be very high.
That's how the transistor turns itself on and on until it is fully turned on. At this point the current flowing through the circuit is a maximum but the flux is not expanding so the base of the transistor does not see the high "turn-on" energy and thus the transistor suddenly turns off.
The magnetic flux collapses and the transistor sees a reverse voltage on the base to keep it turned off until the flux is fully collapsed. The current through the resistor enters the base to start the cycle again.
From this you will be able to see how the transistor and transformer work.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on June 04, 2010, 04:04:37 PM

Why use rotors on bedini when it can be done solid with just adding two resistors to the original circuit and a very high oscillation.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 04, 2010, 04:40:13 PM

Quote from: guruji on June 04, 2010, 04:04:37 PM
Why use rotors on bedini when it can be done solid with just adding two resistors to the original circuit and a very high oscillation.

Gurugi

One reason to build a bedini is just to build it ....... a rotor is more interesting to look at than just a few wires and chips.

I do agree that most of what you can do with a bedini you can do better with no rotor.

I am working on a bedini with a few twists.,...... and yes it will have a rotor
I plan on adding more than one coil per rotor.
Once I get it going with a full set of coils I will work on using the other end of the coils on a second rotor.
I also plan on using a rotor disk with alternating N and S poles as a generator to keep the speed in check.

It is my theory that if rotors are lined up accurately on a keyed shaft , one trigger coil should work for several coils .......each one same position on separate rotors.. .... if the normal transistor went to a power transistor you could run dozens of rotors with one trigger coil.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 04, 2010, 05:36:48 PM

Quote from: guruji on June 04, 2010, 04:04:37 PM
Why use rotors on bedini when it can be done solid with just adding two resistors to the original circuit and a very high oscillation.

You can also use the rotating wheel.
John plays it down on the forums but in his dvd, he clearly states that you get something from the rotor.
He says you can even pump water.
Now, it is slow, but all you need is a holding tank.

I like the idea of a fan.
If you use a 20 inch box fan and tape a charcoal air filter in front of it, you have yourself a sweet (maybe free energy) air cleaner.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 04, 2010, 06:08:29 PM

with the bedini you also have a very easy way of charging a battery bank buy adding more pick up coils

my idea was get a joule thief to run off an earth battery to power the bedini motor then use the pick up coils to charg battery banks not ou but pritty damn good i rechion

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 04, 2010, 07:42:48 PM

Mine too.
I just haven't made it spike high enough yet.
I can get 4v spikes with the plant battery.
The other more conventional electrodes in water have all performed LESS well than the plant battery (like 1.74v tops), so I am sure there is a plus going there somehow.
But while I have a joule thief that operates on 0.6mA (wow) it is not able to spike the spikes high enough to recharge another battery.
I guess I haven't tried it yet, but, in the future I will go back to the plant battery that worked best which was number 1 and push it.

My jtc as recharger has been inconclusive.
I can recharge the batteries from the 49v- 74v that come off as spikes, but I do not think that I am getting more out than the drive battery puts in.

so, I completely agree.
The joule thief run from an earth battery to recharge a battery is the way to go.
I want to hear your efforts and results, if you have any.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 04, 2010, 07:45:33 PM

im still sceptical about joule thief battery charging but i was think of running a bedini motor from a joule thied jeanna i would love the scematic for your0.6ma joule this lowest i have mine is 65ma lol

i start a job monday so soon i should have money to play with one thing i need to get is some 2n3904 transisters and maybe a couple of pots and make some sort of rister wheel with them

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 04, 2010, 07:57:10 PM

Jeanna:

I think my set-up might be able to charge an AA rechargeable but, I would need to make some kind of voltage regulator to prevent the 2.7 volts of the B-cap from blowing up the 1.2 volt AA.

I don't think I know how to do that. Actually, I am sure I don't know how to do that. I could eliminate the B-cap but, usually the output from the EER is usually still too high for a 1.2 volt bat. and, I don't think the AA would respond to the spikes like the B-cap does.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 04, 2010, 08:14:29 PM

cool just found out buy mersuing with my dmm i have 4 45k pots

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 04, 2010, 09:45:41 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 04, 2010, 07:57:10 PM
Jeanna:

I think my set-up might be able to charge an AA rechargeable but, I would need to make some kind of voltage regulator to prevent the 2.7 volts of the B-cap from blowing up the 1.2 volt AA.

I don't think I know how to do that. Actually, I am sure I don't know how to do that. I could eliminate the B-cap but, usually the output from the EER is usually still too high for a 1.2 volt bat. and, I don't think the AA would respond to the spikes like the B-cap does.

Bill

Bill

That is an easy one

Just charge 2 AAs in series

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 04, 2010, 09:51:50 PM

Gary:

Duh! Now why didn't I think of that? ??? ? I feel like an idiot.

Would the 2.7 volts in the B-cap be too much for 2 x 1.2 volts (2.4 volts) in the rechargeables? If that is OK then this is a brilliant, and simple, solution.

Thank you,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 04, 2010, 09:54:13 PM

no that would be spot on to charge 2 batteys you need a couple of volr more when charging the question is will the ma of the earth battery be high enogth to trickle charge and pass the leakage rate also dont have cap fully carged when you connect the battery connect the battery to the cap then connect the earth battery terminals should limit damge to the batterys from the fast discharge of the caps

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 04, 2010, 10:05:27 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 04, 2010, 09:51:50 PM
Gary:

Duh! Now why didn't I think of that? ??? ? I feel like an idiot.

Would the 2.7 volts in the B-cap be too much for 2 x 1.2 volts (2.4 volts) in the rechargeables? If that is OK then this is a brilliant, and simple, solution.

Thank you,

Bill

Bill

It should be almost ideal.
Remember your charge voltage has to be higher than your battery voltage to push the electrons in.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 04, 2010, 10:33:58 PM

Thanks guys. I will give this a shot when I can. It may take a while to charge them but...I don't care, it will be free.

Thanks again.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 04, 2010, 10:35:16 PM

i would test with your dmm to what milliamps you get then go online look up battery charge caluclator that should give you an idea to how long

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 04, 2010, 10:42:25 PM

I can get up to 3,000 amps when running it through the b-cap which is why I need to be careful as you mentioned. The EER puts out a pretty consistent 19 mA's or so. But, when running through the cap the spikes can charge it up pretty quickly (relatively speaking) so I will have to see if it can keep up...it may not.

It should make for a good experiment.

We will see.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 04, 2010, 10:43:37 PM

you might find that the batterys pull the amount down the b-cap can store that the case with joule thief anyway

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on June 04, 2010, 10:46:37 PM

Would a step down transformer also serve the purpose ?

Regartds...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 04, 2010, 10:50:15 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on June 04, 2010, 07:45:33 PM
im still sceptical about joule thief battery charging but i was think of running a bedini motor from a joule thied jeanna i would love the scematic for your0.6ma joule this lowest i have mine is 65ma lol

i start a job monday so soon i should have money to play with one thing i need to get is some 2n3904 transisters and maybe a couple of pots and make some sort of rister wheel with them

I use the jtc with a secondary and no led between the C-E of the transistor.
Other than that,the schematic is not different, but the current from the copper/mg water battery is so low that all that CAN be used is 0.6mA.
If I use a AA, what gets used is more normal, and it lights lots of whites.
The incredible part to me is that it shines a red led from the secondary from so little input volts.

I have been using the 2N2222 that I got after my 3904 all blew from getting stuck by magnets. (my assumption)

If you want to limit the mA going into your jtc, add a rheostat somewhere at the red line coming in from the
+ battery.
I usually use this jtc for multiple white leds, and the jtc takes about 35mA, if I remember.

@gary,
Yes, it might be ok with the bcap
It would take a long time to fill.
This really is restricted input.
The incoming voltage is 1.3v so the bcap would have no problem on that end.
I am using 1F cap and without that none of this works at all.
However, sometimes it takes 30 minutes to fill enough to start up.
But it usually takes less time to keep it filled than it uses so it stays on for weeks after it starts up.
Course it is all free so to speak.
I will make another like the first one which happily ran a jtc that had 2 secondaries with one led each and see what it can do.

The frequency on this water barber pole is 333khz, and the light stays on steady if I add a 150pF cap (101) across the secondary leads. It has a long slow pulse without that cap, but the cap throws the micro amps back and forth enough that the light stays on. It is pretty cool.

That is the angle of this that interests me the most.
I am hoping to get this to work with facility, and maybe someday I will be able to use every last little joule that goes even near the led.
And then... ;)

thank you,

jeanna

@Gary,
I just re-read your suggestion.
Do you mean to use the bcap across the secondary for the charging side?
I guess that would work.
thanks
j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 05, 2010, 04:37:55 AM

Goldmine is selling a package of 500 of these 3 volts rechargable new type of batteries:

http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G13133B&utm_source=Electronic+Goldmine+Newsletter&utm_campaign=a004293e5d-June_1_Warehouse_Stuff6_3_2010&utm_medium=email (http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G13133B&utm_source=Electronic+Goldmine+Newsletter&utm_campaign=a004293e5d-June_1_Warehouse_Stuff6_3_2010&utm_medium=email)

It says one quick charge will run an led for an hour. They are very small and very thin and can be recharged over and over. This might be a great power source for very small (size) JT projects. At 3 volts, we could run some leds for a very long time. I could stick one into my solar garden lights for example.

Just got it in an e-mail from goldmine.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on June 05, 2010, 06:42:46 AM

Resonanceman the setup that I'm using is not with a chip. I just added a 10k instead of the 1n4001 and a 20k between base and collector and it should self oscillate. Although if one has a thick coil as I did last I had to shorten the base coil more.
Oscillations happen on 17ohm base and 28ohm with 6ohm collector in my experience.
Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 05, 2010, 10:00:54 AM

ok i have just dont a test with this little fellow
parts are 1k resister bc337-25 transister 5 base winds 5 collocter winds and 10 pick up coil winds

i used a couple of garden solar panels and 3 1000uf 16v caps in parallel just wonted to see if they would charge to find out the real output of my solar panels
well when i put this jt across the caps droped 0.6 volts and 10ma of current the unit lights but not very bright

my question is if i uped the pickup winds would this make the led brighter or woule removeing the resister do better and try different ones

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 05, 2010, 12:34:18 PM

noted that all my joule thiefs start at around 10 ma at 1.25volts just need a way now to ajust the voltage so i can see what voltage they will start at these are dimly lit btw i need to find a whay to get the full brightness yet

this informatin should then tell me what i need from my earth battery

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 05, 2010, 01:08:40 PM

my new toroid winding not sure what wire im going to use for the secondory winds what ever i can solvage i guess im hopeing to get 80 winds per side

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 05, 2010, 02:51:11 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on June 05, 2010, 12:34:18 PM
noted that all my joule thiefs start at around 10 ma at 1.25volts just need a way now to ajust the voltage so i can see what voltage they will start at these are dimly lit btw i need to find a whay to get the full brightness yet

Nice toroid. It has a familiar look.
almost anything will work for the secondary winding.
If it is thinner you can fit more turns but the wire is brittle and you can get failures just from that.

May I suggest that you get a potentiometer?
Allelectronics has a 1k pot which I use a lot Sometimes you get a lot more out when you have less than 1kr at the base.

=======

@all,
I want to report that the oscillation enhancing cap I added across the secondary last night has continued to work for over15 hours.
I arrived at the number by using a calculator.
The freq of the joule thief = 333khz
the inductance of the secondary wire around the toroid = 1.6mH
the resonance is predicted when a cap of 140pF is added.
And it worked.

The reason I never tried this before is that the calculator is for a different kind of oscillator circuit.
anyway this worked.

I used 68pF which worked for about 15 minutes, then the light went out. It started up soon after, but it would not stay constant.
The 220pF killed the light.

So, I am reporting this because I think it is an important lead in what to do with the spiky output volts.

@jadaro, BTW the cap makes this output into a smooth sine wave.

I hope some others will try to enhance their output.
http://www.whatcircuits.com/lc-resonance-frequency-calculator/ (http://www.whatcircuits.com/lc-resonance-frequency-calculator/)

Maybe the circuit is the same if I turn my head. mmm :D

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 05, 2010, 02:56:19 PM

yeah i have been messing with a 45k pot today my new wound toriod i put 10 winds secoundry on and a bridge rectifier i got 180volts can not get the 180 again but sits at about 160volts only problem with that is im kaeking 100ma from the battery to get that voltage im going to put a pot on my battery set it to max draw 10ma buy using my meter to mesure the amps and slowly turn the put till i get what i wont im then going to try more and less winds secondry to see if i can get the light brigter

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 05, 2010, 02:59:03 PM

any idea on how i could control the voltage ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 05, 2010, 03:39:27 PM

very interesting my batter were set to only allow 10ma of power well the led was very dimm i adderd a capaciter across the + and - input lead of the joule thief and the led got brighter

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on June 05, 2010, 03:41:08 PM

@ Bill,

Have a look at this simple constant current regulator for charging your Nicad from the supper cap @ 2.7v The circuit uses the ubicous LM317, just use the formula to work out the resistance value for your charge current... nice and safe. Note the LM317 needs 1.25 volts difference between input and output, so should be OK to dump from your supper cap to Nicad. Merv

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 05, 2010, 03:42:54 PM

the ampage draw is 6.06ma here is a pic to see brightness

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 05, 2010, 03:43:26 PM

can not wait to get some 2n3904 and see what they will give me

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 05, 2010, 03:44:06 PM

@ Crowclaw:

Thank you very much. That does look pretty easy to make. Might come in handy for other projects as well.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 05, 2010, 03:47:13 PM

dasimpson:

Nice job. That looks like a bright light to me. You are on your way now. I am looking forward to seeing what you do next.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 05, 2010, 03:52:20 PM

yeah i could never get my power draw below 65ma then i thoght i wounder what happens it i put a pot between the + of the battery and the + of the joule this so befor connecting the joule thief i ran my meter + after the pot and the - to the battery set meter for amps and well as i ajusted the pot the ampage went down but the voltage satyed the same

this is cool cos no matter what i do nothing can draw more then 10ma the strange thing is i thoght the joule thief would pull the full 10 but it dosent seem to also i have a pot instead of a resister and the really funny thing is as you ajust the pot the light gets brighter then dim then brighter again and so on amlost like im changing gear
also putting a cap inline with the battery after the pot made thing brighter

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 05, 2010, 05:03:45 PM

im on page 555 now 10 posts per page i have noticed alot of ppl on here are getting attacked now something seems strange here were after free power and were been hacked alot just a note wont to be safe move away from windows full stop after reading this far i haved moved to ubuntu to do my reserch in fear i maybe next call me a conspircy nut but dose seem rather a big coinsadence

i used ubuntu as it is the most easy os i have found to install no drivers needed it forces things to work

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on June 05, 2010, 06:35:51 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on June 05, 2010, 12:34:18 PM
noted that all my joule thiefs start at around 10 ma at 1.25volts just need a way now to ajust the voltage so i can see what voltage they will start at these are dimly lit btw i need to find a whay to get the full brightness yet

this informatin should then tell me what i need from my earth battery

Voltage is an interesting thing to try to control. Potentiometers may have a variable voltage drop - it just depends on the current.

When your light goes out, more current will flow through your circuit than when it's on. At least, this is what I've notice with my JTCs.

You should rather, try to operate one considering that the voltage drop across an LED is usually as rated. You have a voltage gain in the circuit.

You might want to invest in multiple DMM's ..have one hooked in parallel with a small electrolytic capacitor to measure current and another to take various voltage measurements.

I have several craftsman model DMMS, they each measure voltage, current, in various decimal places, as well as frequency up to 10mHz. One has a transistor tester, but I'm really at a loss as to what the numbers are supposed to mean. Both of them have temperature probes and can take relative measures with a hold function.

- - - -

One of the things I do to measure voltage is hook up the circuit and measure the voltage across the resistor ( wherever it is ) ..subtracting this from the source voltage should give you the voltage across the rest of the circuit on that path.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 05, 2010, 07:01:31 PM

calulations are over my head lol

well mindight here most of my test joule thief have been dead by 6 am so time for a longivity test with my new setup
drawing about 5ma from a fully charged 1.2 volt battery at 2500mah this could be ahwile lol
if my calulations are right this chould be about 500 hours omfg

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 05, 2010, 07:19:54 PM

dasimpson:

Welcome to the "magic" of the Joule Thief circuit, ha ha.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Flux4Energizer on June 05, 2010, 07:28:21 PM

@ Bill

Hi i've seen your question about the battery and also have seen you already got an answer, but as extra i would like to post a circuit which uses the LM317 also, but now you can ajust the output voltage to your needs.

In this case it functions as a transformer which has an input of 220-240 VAC but if you discard the left side of the circuit you can build it to fit your needs and vary the output voltage from approx. 1.25V up to approx. 36V

Regards,

Flux

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 05, 2010, 07:30:16 PM

Flux:

Thank you very much. Yes, adjustable would be a nice feature and also make it more handy for other projects.

I appreciate your posting that.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 05, 2010, 07:41:54 PM

found this in an old pc psu wired it up got 75volts on my dmm ac and dc setting tried ampage test erm blew the fuse ups it sings a high pich tune hehehe draws 25.4ma

parts used
bc337-25 transister
1k resister
5 leds so far no picture of that as i had them in my hand held to the terminals
note to self really must stop looking at the bloody leds yeah i know lower the brightness with a pot
but then i dont know how well there really lit
note if i see purple they full brightness lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 05, 2010, 07:52:36 PM

Just in case you didn't know this, looking directly into some leds can really damage your eyes as they emit some freqs. that are harmful to them. Not that I have not done it. One time, I saw a blue spot in front of my eyes for like 20 minutes afterward. Probably not a good thing.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 05, 2010, 08:21:04 PM

ah well we all do these daft things

or btw the ppl whop were trying to copy haz's work you were using the wrong transister
he was using a tip31

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on June 06, 2010, 05:56:32 AM

30 % ENERGY SAVER
http://freeenergyinfo.narod2.ru/minimizator/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Km0MlEBWkn4
KAPAGEN
http://jnaudin.free.fr/kapagen/

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 06, 2010, 06:14:22 AM

Nice website.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 06, 2010, 07:49:56 AM

well my record is beat 12 hours now and still the led is very bright

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 06, 2010, 07:51:06 AM

a question if i can light a 3mm 5000mcd led to full brightness will that also light a 285.000mcd 10mm led the volage and current are about the same for each led

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on June 06, 2010, 07:56:43 AM

I would like to "advertise" (again) a very good modification of the Joule Thief circuit which I copied from a person calling himself "groundloop" (see the attached drawing). For people who followed this thread a long time, this is no news. This post is intended for experimenters who joined more recently (like me).

This circuit (in comparison with the original Joule Thief circuit) runs with a reduced base current, which keeps the transistor cooler and also uses less power (because the rather high base current which just produces heat in the transistor is reduced to very little).

The power consumption is regulated by the capacitor (5 pF to 1000pF) rather than with a variable resistor. The resistor stays at 1 MOhm (or 100 KOhm for very low voltage and very low power applications).

Specially if one wants more power and a higher voltage power supply (e.g. 12 Volt), this circuit (with a low capacitance, e.g. C=20 pF) is very good.

But also on the "low end" (very little power and voltage, e.g. from an earth battery or other strange batteries) this circuit (with R=100K, C=1nF=1000pF, transistor=BC547N) works very well.

I want to convey, that many different cores can be used (with the original Joule Thief circuit and with the one proposed). Toroids are just one possibility. I personally like air cores because they are so simple and cheap, but I saw good videos on YouTube with Ferrite rods, ordinary transformer cores and fly back transformers. (They use the original Joule Thief circuit.)

The "problem" is the number of turns for L1, L2 (and L3, if any). This needs experimenting when using a certain core and certain lamps.

The choice of transistor depends primarily on the power one wants to get out of the Joule Thief. For high power (many LEDs, CFL, FL) one needs a power transistor so that it can take the load and does not overheat. For very low power applications (strange batteries) one wants a very sensitive transistor (which can not take a high load, only one LED). In both cases transistors with a high DC current gain are better (because the base current can be very low). Therefore I switched to Darlington Pairs when I want more power (TIP142 or BD681) and to the BC547N (not a Darlington, but high DC current gain, needs only 0.6 Volt) for very low power experiments with strange batteries. Many transistors are good. Some poeple have strong personal preferences, just ignore them. Power transistor or no power transistor, this is important for not overheating the transistor.

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 06, 2010, 08:16:45 AM

Quote from: dasimpson on June 06, 2010, 07:51:06 AM
a question if i can light a 3mm 5000mcd led to full brightness will that also light a 285.000mcd 10mm led the volage and current are about the same for each led

Nice job on the longevity testing. This is a good question that you ask. I did some experiments with my 265,000 mcd leds (10 mm) vs. 2,600 mcd leds and here is what I found. The high rated leds were brighter BUT not 100 times by any means. Maybe, at best, 1.5 times. But, they pulled a lot more power. So, I ended up being able to use about 10 of the lower rated leds and got a lot more light then one of the high rated ones and they lasted longer on a single AA.

But, as we always say here on this forum, try it and see what you get and then tell us. Maybe you will see something different, maybe not. But we will all learn something.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 06, 2010, 09:37:04 AM

just had an idea for the ppl with mice problem well pirate has the answer
i just have the mod to matal plates side buy side the taser connects to them lets see the mice servive that

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 06, 2010, 10:11:48 AM

lol i have the exact same hellicopter they work like a peace of crap canerlised mine for batteyrs mag wire etc sorry the one i have is the 0807 one

Quote from: electricme on May 27, 2009, 03:11:54 AM
@Altrez
Yep, ME TOOO, I wanna see a photo if this is possible, could you discribe the winding secondary please.

I have a small tiny inci wincy electric motor, smallest I have eva seen, its the tail rotor in a electric powered helicopter, I think I will raid it and connect it to my JT and see what happens, he he.

OK see if you can find it

jim

0808.jpg = tiny electric tail rotor motor close up
0806.jpg = small chopper, I hid it in plane sight
0807.jpg = Now where is the small chopper?

I been in the garden also today, I burried a chunk of aluminium, upon testing, it comes up with nothing, zero, zilch, hmmmmmmmmmmmm. This is where I have my earth battery, plates of iron, lead, copper and carbon, now 2 choppers are in the mix.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 06, 2010, 10:58:52 AM

i owe every one an apology you can charge batterys from a joule thief i was doing it wrong i did not relise after the bridge you had to have a cap and another diode to stop the battery dumping it's charge back into the cap

for this i am sorry think ill keep comments to mys self till i have read the hole thread uptodate

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 06, 2010, 05:30:07 PM

well the clock just turned 22.29 and the test joule thief is still going strong
woohooooooo money cleard time for some 2n3904 and some more leds and maybe a bread board

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on June 07, 2010, 02:15:12 AM

I'm wondering if anyone can remember the location of the diagram for the circuit ( in this thread ) with the unusually hooked up transistor - I think it was behind the inductors and not in front of it?

It was a black and white, with a few notes, it may have been smirkey that came up with it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on June 08, 2010, 07:26:18 PM

jadaro
is this the circuit you are looking for
this guy does a better demo than me so here is his video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lSIuMIqtHc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lSIuMIqtHc)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on June 08, 2010, 11:12:07 PM

Quote from: kooler on June 08, 2010, 07:26:18 PM
jadaro
is this the circuit you are looking for
this guy does a better demo than me so here is his video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lSIuMIqtHc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lSIuMIqtHc)

I'll have a look - Your name is familiar, also.

- - - - -

I was just considering driving the JTC with a higher voltage source, two batteries instead of one. If we're going to run it until it's as low as possible, then it may fatigue the batteries. We probably shouldn't do this with rechargeable batteries, instead ..

If I have two batteries, and can drive the circuit down a minimum voltage of 0.65 or so without using germanium transistors; I can only drive one battery down to 0.65 ..if I use two, then each battery would discharge to around 0.375 ..and more current would be pulled from the source.

So, my considerations are for operating a mosfet in linear mode, I need a voltage controlled resistor or some rigging of a mosfet which scales predictably in ohmic mode. Has anyone had any experience with rigging mosfets in this manner?

I would probably need a depletion mode, something that would slowly phase out it's resistance as the voltage dropped. Such a setup would allow us to maintain a stable operation even with a range of voltage sources. I thought it worthy to work on such a setup because the joule thief circuit seems to pull more current as the battery dies or when there is no load on the secondary, etc. This essentially means the transistors go into runaway mode.

Lights would not dim, per se, just cease at some point, preferably at the threshold of the base-emitter saturation voltage.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on June 09, 2010, 12:12:45 AM

jadaro
the circuit i made.. backwards jt .. at 3 volts it starts to give off alot of rf signals.. put a wire from the back of the capactor side and loop it around a tank circuit and it will run alot of leds..
or put a 9 volts on it and it will mess with radios 20 meters away..
all that with 5ma's and less..
if you want i will post you a circuit like it that lights 10 leds on the battery side with a double A battery or 35-40 leds with a 3volts
but keep in mind that on 9 volts it was messing with my pc.. so it can't be good for the person running it..
you can run air coil with this at low ma's.. or you can just make your cat go nuts..
but i give up on this circuit because it didn't catch to many peoples interest..
but if you build it and it works it will get your attention,,
good luck
oh i meant to say that (stprue) went alot farther than i did..
he does really good work
this is his video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfzD1vgphoA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfzD1vgphoA)

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on June 09, 2010, 03:30:00 AM

That would be nice - ...I'll obviously be looking for a way to reduce that interference, if I have to put it in a brass case, I will.

The diagram is rather tricky to get a good picture of, please post one.

- - - - -

I have also been looking for a decent cheat-sheet on transistor terminology. ..what the significance of a particular stat means is becoming tedious. I've found some, sparse, but nothing solid.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: mscoffman on June 09, 2010, 11:39:35 AM

Quote from: jadaro2600 on June 08, 2010, 11:12:07 PM

So, my considerations are for operating a mosfet in linear mode, I need a voltage controlled resistor or some rigging of a mosfet which scales predictably in ohmic mode. Has anyone had any experience with rigging mosfets in this manner?

@jadaro

There are numerous ways of doing this, but they require lots of components,
potentially dual polarity stable power supplies, and some are not efficient
uses of electric power - all of these characteristics are inconsistent with
the design of the basic JT JouleThief. The best bet probably is some sort
of bipolar transistor series regulator.

Here's the thing - these things should not stop you from setting up a
system that will behave as you want...and if what the system does,
looks good to you, you can reduce that operation of the system to simpler
components in a separate experimental step.

Too many experimenters don't do this, they want to combine learning
how a circuit operates with greatly reduce component setup, and then
they can't do both sides of this simultaneously. I hate complexity too,
but I hate end unit complexity and not intermediate development complexity.
So what I am saying is learn how control the circuit and battery charger
to do what you want separately from reducing component complexity. I'm
telling you, I think you are correct about this, and I think you can do it, and
maybe make an actual contribution on here.

---

The methods for linearizing a MOSFET are:
Putting a negative feedback-loop operational amplifier in front
of the MOSFET that has sufficient accuracy to deal with the mosfet
voltage gain of about one million. Operating a transistor in linear
gain mode is not efficient at all when the device is in intermediate
part of the transfer curve. Bipolar transistor are easier to control
because they have less numerical gain...but their gain is in the current
domain (I) and you often need to convert that to the voltage or
power domain to be useful.

If you need output signals with bandwidth of 30Khz or less, look up
"MOSFET switching amplifiers". These synthesize the required voltage
by switching on and off at very high frequencies. Because the mosfet
is either on or off all the time, power efficiency is increased.

A "digital potentiometer" is an easy way to get what you want but
you will need to design a digital front-end for it.

There are a couple of IC amps designed for ACG operation - Automatic
Gain Control, where a voltage input can act as a "volume control"
on the output. But most of the time VFC Voltage Frequency Control of
an astable oscillator is all that is required and even the lowly NE555 has
that. (on pin5 - Control Voltage)

:S:MarkSCoffman

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 09, 2010, 01:39:47 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on June 05, 2010, 03:39:27 PM
very interesting my batter were set to only allow 10ma of power well the led was very dimm i adderd a capaciter across the + and - input lead of the joule thief and the led got brighter

Yeay!

Thank you for trying this and reporting it!

The nexy step is to get another tiny one that keeps the joules tossing back and forth across the secondary leads.
Keep going.
good work.

jeanna

Quotethis is cool cos no matter what i do nothing can draw more then 10ma the strange thing is i thoght the joule thief would pull the full 10 but it dosent seem to also i have a pot instead of a resister and the really funny thing is as you ajust the pot the light gets brighter then dim then brighter again and so on amlost like im changing gear
also putting a cap inline with the battery after the pot made thing brighter

When you see the light get brighter or dimmer you are watching the circuit go in and out of resonance.
good job.
It is easier with a scope, but as you can tell, you can see the resonance this way.

j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on June 09, 2010, 05:05:01 PM

Quote from: mscoffman on June 09, 2010, 11:39:35 AM
@jadaro

...

Here's the thing - these things should not stop you from setting up a
system that will behave as you want...and if what the system does,
looks good to you, you can reduce that operation of the system to simpler
components in a separate experimental step.

Too many experimenters don't do this, they want to combine learning
how a circuit operates with greatly reduce component setup, and then
they can't do both sides of this simultaneously. I hate complexity too,
but I hate end unit complexity and not intermediate development complexity.
So what I am saying is learn how control the circuit and battery charger
to do what you want separately from reducing component complexity. I'm
telling you, I think you are correct about this, and I think you can do it, and
maybe make an actual contribution on here.

...

:S:MarkSCoffman

Thank you for the information. I've been dealing with the peculiarities of the devices as of late.

I was reading somewhere on the Berkley website that switching diodes act like resistors until they reach they reach their saturation voltage.

I may wind up using a mosfet for other purposes, since their usually on or off.

I'll continue looking for a scaling resistor, it just seems logical to use one which is voltage oriented.

Also, I too have notices extreme reductionism occuring on circuits. Although this may be good for hobbyists, it usually doesn't bode well for production runs, the pass/fail system would just as readily have most of them thrown out. The idea is to make a quality product with predictable operation.

More often than not, the JTC is sensitive and prone to wild fits of good and bad behavior. It's the Bi-Polar circuit, in other words.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 09, 2010, 06:46:50 PM

have abread board now with a jt setup on it i have a cap on the in terminales
i then have it going to a bridge rectifire then to a cap after that i connects leds with the cap in the secondory the leds also get brighter
haveing the cap and bridge makes it easyer to measure the voltage

edit ps also have some 2n3904 trannys now

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 11, 2010, 09:18:30 AM

a question to light a tube fully would we need more voltage or is there a limit to how much we can get them to light with voltage only
i mean could we get the as braight using the jt as they are when in normal usage

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on June 11, 2010, 10:56:01 AM

Quote from: kooler on June 09, 2010, 12:12:45 AM
you can run air coil with this at low ma's.. or you can just make your cat go nuts..
robbie

@ robbie (kooler)

I want to replicate your "backwards JT" circuit and wounder how many turns (instead of the 3T/5T/15T on a toroid) one should put on an air coil for your backwards JT?

What diameter should the air coil have?

I guess you propose an air coil to increase the frequency?

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 11, 2010, 02:34:00 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on June 11, 2010, 09:18:30 AM
a question to light a tube fully would we need more voltage or is there a limit to how much we can get them to light with voltage only
i mean could we get the as bright using the jt as they are when in normal usage

Hi dasimpson,

It is a good question.
We do not know.
There has been speculation that the full brightness comes from the warmth component.

Keep trying.

I recently wanted to try the capacitor-joule-toss I spoke of before, where all the joules except for the ones being turned into photons return to the other side of the secondary, again and again, but that is just my latest idea.

Try anything you can think of.
and, of course, report it. ;) ,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 11, 2010, 02:46:36 PM

Quote from: jeanna on June 11, 2010, 02:34:00 PM
Hi dasimpson,

I recently wanted to try the capacitor-joule-toss I spoke of before, where all the joules except for the ones being turned into photons return to the other side of the secondary, again and again, but that is just my latest idea.

jeanna

Jeanna:

If you attempt this I think there is a slight possibility that all matter in the universe will spontaneously disintegrate. I could be wrong though.

(Grin)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 11, 2010, 05:07:11 PM

oh i am a long way from anything like that im haveing trouble getting the 2n3904 to light off 11 turns bifoiler were as my bc337-25 will go from about 5

Quote from: jeanna link=topic=6123.msg244655#msg244655 A=1276281240
Hi dasimpson,

It is a good question.
We do not know.
There has been speculation that the full brightness comes from the warmth component.

Keep trying.

I recently wanted to try the capacitor-joule-toss I spoke of before, where all the joules except for the ones being turned into photons return to the other side of the secondary, again and again, but that is just my latest idea.

Try anything you can think of.
and, of course, report it. ;) ,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nealc99 on June 17, 2010, 03:40:54 PM

FIRE SALE!

Found some "super cheap" 1/2" N45 Neo magnets at a price you might be interested in - $0.95 each! Might be perfect for bedini motor.

http://www.magnet4sale.com/Sphere-Neodymium-Magnets-Dia-0.5-N42-NdFeB-Rare-Earth-Magnets.html

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on June 19, 2010, 12:14:48 AM

Hi Folks, i was wondering if anyone can help me solve this heat issue with my joule thief circuit. at 6volts i see no problems with heat, however at 12v or greater, the transistor heats up when powering a fluoro bulb off the secondary, however it barely heats up when charging a 12v battery off the primaries flyback with diode. My guess is that when powering fluoro off secondary, that some of the collapse is induced into feedback winding of the bifilar and creating an issue at the base of transistor. Where as when charging a separate 12v battery off primary flyback diode, almost all the collapse is used up in charging battery leaving little to induce in the feedback winding. Hopefully some can help me understand what needs to be done with the circuit to prevent this heating. Thanks.
peace love light
Tyson :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on June 19, 2010, 12:33:43 AM

Did it again. Left the lights on in my infernal combustion machine. The ridiculous machine for some reason needs to compress the air fuel mixture before the fuel will combust. Why engineers havent been able to figure out how to add fuel to the cylinders past top dead center and combust same without having to resort to wasteful fuel air compression is beyond me. The steam engine didnt have to compress the steam it just valved it into the cylinder at the proper time and the cylinder expanded. Some idiot says gosh I can bypass the boiler and use the cylinder as the heater upper directly. Start that there fire right inside the piston. After millions if not billions of hours of engineering the automotive industry insists on producing the same most inefficient engine ever created. The wasted fuel is incredible. On the scale of energy efficiency star system this piece of shit wouldnt even rate a moon. When you have to use 3horsepower just to prepare for the chemical to kinetic conversion event something is wrong. Just the three horsepower in a properly designed vehicle will suffice. I dont need 150 horespower to travel 10miles in 30minutes. I need an electric go cart with a rain tight enclosure and some windshield wipers. Headlights are useless just a pair of nightvision goggles and I'm good to go. All headlights do is blind other motorists so they have to use their headlights that blind other motorists. A chain reaction of rendering vehicle operators blinded making it necessary to light the roadways and waste more energy.
When someone has to tell you you have a headlight out it tells me they arent really needed. Sylvania needs em I dont. My eyes dialate when it is dark I dont know about yours.
Anyway as I have posted before if you have a functioning jule thief I would get on down to the patent office and patent it as a device for emergency starting of the infernal combustion engine. A big jt should be able to tap a battery on down to 1/2 a volt or so. Since the starter motor needs 9volts to get through the compression resistance of the engine and about 1000 surge amps the Jt should be able to take a bunch of juice from a "dead" battery and boost it up to charge a small carbon lithium battery to give the surge needed to crank the engine. The carbon lithium could be charged up to 300volts which would drop quickly to 9volts and give the 1000amp surge and the 300 cranking amps needed to get the oil burner ignited. Most home furnaces just need a 1/6hp motor to blow air and pump oil and a highvoltage transformer to get them going but not the infernal combustion engine. The use of a highvoltage battery allows for a great reduction in weight. Why 12volts dc distribution in a car anyway. A highvoltage starter motor would require minimal amps especially if it spun up a flywheel and at the desired rpm engaged the clutch instead of brute force battery versus compression. No heavy cables and contacts. Wire diameters reduced by 10fold. No sulphuric acid to handle. Probably has something to do with highvoltage and oil all over the place associated with the piece of crap engine that has a tendency to waste oil in every conceivable manner possible short of pouring it straight into the oceans. Oh they figured that one out too.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on June 19, 2010, 03:23:21 AM

Quote from: SkyWatcher123 on June 19, 2010, 12:14:48 AM
Hi Folks, i was wondering if anyone can help me solve this heat issue with my joule thief circuit. at 6volts i see no problems with heat, however at 12v or greater, the transistor heats up when powering a fluoro bulb off the secondary, however it barely heats up when charging a 12v battery off the primaries flyback with diode. My guess is that when powering fluoro off secondary, that some of the collapse is induced into feedback winding of the bifilar and creating an issue at the base of transistor. Where as when charging a separate 12v battery off primary flyback diode, almost all the collapse is used up in charging battery leaving little to induce in the feedback winding. Hopefully some can help me understand what needs to be done with the circuit to prevent this heating. Thanks.
peace love light
Tyson :)

You'll need to determine what the resistance at the base is and scale this properly with increased source voltage.

Know your transistors: ..most of them in the to-92 plastics only require 1 volt to fully cut on, in the to-220, usually 2.4 volts.

The 2n3904 only needs 2k resistance at base, on a 1.4v source to 'cut on'. It uses about 1mA.

If I were to increase the source voltage, then I would need to increase the base resistance likewise.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 19, 2010, 09:02:34 AM

found my problem dead tranisister opps

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 23, 2010, 09:28:26 AM

i got to ask ppl are saying they are getting ac from the pickup coil but i get pulsed dc i know this cos an led will only work on way
now if the pickup is wound back over it self then i think ac would happern

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: The Observer on June 23, 2010, 11:04:27 AM

Jeanna, Pirate and the rest...

I am wondering if anyone has used a Joule Thief Circuit to charge a Water Capacitor (Stan Meyer Fuel Cell).

Stan Meyer used a High Electric Field ( in water capacitor) along with a little resonance jiggling to split the water molecule.
He also said he let the collapsing magnetic field of a transformer do the work... which of course is what lights the LED in a JT.

Thanks for the input.

The Observer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 23, 2010, 03:29:18 PM

Quote from: The Observer on June 23, 2010, 11:04:27 AM
Jeanna, Pirate and the rest...

I am wondering if anyone has used a Joule Thief Circuit to charge a Water Capacitor (Stan Meyer Fuel Cell).

Stan Meyer used a High Electric Field ( in water capacitor) along with a little resonance jiggling to split the water molecule.
He also said he let the collapsing magnetic field of a transformer do the work... which of course is what lights the LED in a JT.

Thanks for the input.

The Observer

Observer

In my opinion there has been very little done with JTs so far that is big enough to do much of anything with a HHO cell

I do think that much of what we have learned here could be addapted to work on a larger scale.

I am working in that direction ......but I have other projects going right now.

I have a dozen or so ideas waiting to be tried relating to larger outputs.

For a start I bought a few IGBTs ....... the idea is to make a small JT then use the output to drive a larger coil with the IGBT

In theory you could run as many IGBTs and coils as you needed ......
I am not saying it will be over unity.........but like the smaller JT it will be all about the flyback pulses..........feed a pulse into the coil......then use the pulse and the flyback for the output.

gary

Edit

If you are planning on splitting water a big JT might be a simple way to start ........ but from what I have read running at specific frequencys may be the key.....( didn't Meyer run his units at something like 42KHz ? )........ the frequency of JTs can't be easily controlled any change in voltage as the battery discharges will shift the frequency.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 23, 2010, 05:07:32 PM

I agree Gary, but if you start with a big battery you will have less alteration as the power goes down.
For example,
In that JT circuit I have that lights 2 LoA bulbs, I tested it and made it work with a AAA, but for long life, I use a D and in fact a pair of D cells, which never seem to wear out.

@Observer,
I think a couple of people have had results, but they have not posted much.
(There might be a thread for HHO from a jtc??)

One was gadgetmall who said he added potassium OH and a jtc and it worked.
I do not recall if it was taken from the C-E or the secondary.
Sucahyo made a few videos showing that the secondary output was making a cloud of HHO bubbles.
There are probably others.

Do you have a set-up to try?

Like Gary, It is on my long list. :D,

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: The Observer on June 23, 2010, 07:36:02 PM

Res and Jeanna,

I was thinking a large JT using a 12 volt battery...
charging the water cap to over 1000 volts.

Then playing with the resistance to adjust frequency.

Bubble Bubble ?

The Observer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 23, 2010, 08:51:42 PM

Quote from: The Observer on June 23, 2010, 07:36:02 PM
Res and Jeanna,

I was thinking a large JT using a 12 volt battery...
charging the water cap to over 1000 volts.

Then playing with the resistance to adjust frequency.

Bubble Bubble ?

The Observer

Observer

getting 1000 V from a 12 V JT is easy......... at least unloaded........ keeping 1000 V while under a load is harder.

Have you ever played with MOTs?
A large microwave transformer with the 2 lower voltage winding hooked together to make a JT..........
I tried this years ago when I first started playing with 12V JTs........it scared me...... arced right through the insulation of my alligator clips.........and fried a DMM ........ now...... I am wondering how strong it would be using a IGBP........it might be close to what you are looking for.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 23, 2010, 09:30:08 PM

Why mess with dangerous and expensive mots when you can get over 2,000 volts from 1.5 volts input on a regular hand wound JT? Over 4,000 volts if powered by 3 volts input, and so on.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 23, 2010, 11:12:24 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 23, 2010, 09:30:08 PM
Why mess with dangerous and expensive mots when you can get over 2,000 volts from 1.5 volts input on a regular hand wound JT? Over 4,000 volts if powered by 3 volts input, and so on.

Bill

Bill

in short the answer to your question is " power".

Yes.......you can get very high voltage with a single AA and a well made JT...........but what happens when you connect that JT to a low impedance load.......like a HHO cell?

I would bet that a 2000V normal JT would drop to under a volt when hooked up to a HHO cell........ you might make some bubbles .......but probably not enough to do anything with.

Voltage alone is not enough........you need enough current to maintain some of that voltage.

Starting with higher voltage and using a large MOT it should be easy to get some high voltage with some grunt behind it.

And ........yes the MOT is much more dangerous than a normal JT because it is more powerful.

As for expensive........ there are lots of microwaves getting thrown out all the time.........just keep your eyes open.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 24, 2010, 12:03:10 AM

Gary:

Yes, OK, I agree with what you have said. But be advised that over on the Kapanadze topic area, folks are finding out that when salvaging mots, most of the reason a micro wave is discarded is due to a short in the mot. And you are correct, the power in those things can kill, instantly. Hell, I still get shocked now and again from my little JT circuits (and I am being careful, ha ha) and I would not trust myself with a mot.

Have you seen Dr. Stiffler's latest video on his HHO production using only the SEC and a single diode? It is very interesting. There are NO connections to the diode at all and yet it produces hydrogen on the one end, and on the other.....nothing! He says this has never been done before. I do not understand how you can split h2o and only get hydrogen? What happens to the oxygen?

Also, like the JT, he says he can run 1,000 or as many diodes as he wants with no more demand on the SEC. So he can produce a lot of gas for little input.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 24, 2010, 12:50:35 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 24, 2010, 12:03:10 AM
Gary:

Yes, OK, I agree with what you have said. But be advised that over on the Kapanadze topic area, folks are finding out that when salvaging mots, most of the reason a micro wave is discarded is due to a short in the mot. And you are correct, the power in those things can kill, instantly. Hell, I still get shocked now and again from my little JT circuits (and I am being careful, ha ha) and I would not trust myself with a mot.

Have you seen Dr. Stiffler's latest video on his HHO production using only the SEC and a single diode? It is very interesting. There are NO connections to the diode at all and yet it produces hydrogen on the one end, and on the other.....nothing! He says this has never been done before. I do not understand how you can split h2o and only get hydrogen? What happens to the oxygen?

Also, like the JT, he says he can run 1,000 or as many diodes as he wants with no more demand on the SEC. So he can produce a lot of gas for little input.

Bill

Bill

I know how you feel about MOTs
My first experience with them scared me........and I have not played with them much sense then.........

I am getting courious about if IGBTs are more powerful than regular transistors when used for JTs........ a MOT would be a great test.
A small coil could limit the power........but a MOT should be able to take all we can throw at it.,

I normally don't follow Dr Stiffler but it sounds like I should watch that video.

Is he saying that the diodes act like that AV plug? each diode picks up a little power?............so the more diodes the more power?

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 24, 2010, 01:01:38 AM

Gary:

Well, he was doing electrolysis with just a frayed wire but now uses a diode in a test tube of water. Yes, just like Jeanna could add more and more leds to her Jeana circuit JT and the amp draw went down, Dr. Stiffler has found something similar with using a diode in the water. The more he adds, it does not increase the power requirement and yet he gets more and more gas and now, ONLY hydrogen. I really do not understand this. Also, there is not connection to the diode at all so yes, kind of like the SEC and the AV plug with an led on it I suppose.

I finally found the link to the video here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdPpXWpn_tw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdPpXWpn_tw)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on June 24, 2010, 04:49:56 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 24, 2010, 01:01:38 AM
Gary:

Well, he was doing electrolysis with just a frayed wire but now uses a diode in a test tube of water. Yes, just like Jeanna could add more and more leds to her Jeana circuit JT and the amp draw went down, Dr. Stiffler has found something similar with using a diode in the water. The more he adds, it does not increase the power requirement and yet he gets more and more gas and now, ONLY hydrogen. I really do not understand this. Also, there is not connection to the diode at all so yes, kind of like the SEC and the AV plug with an led on it I suppose.

I finally found the link to the video here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdPpXWpn_tw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdPpXWpn_tw)

Bill

Bill

Thanks for the link

I will have to look into trying that once I get a few other projects done.

It does look like a better way to make connections for HHO
I wonder if the diode is really needed......... I am thinking that any metal object would work

I have no idea about the hydrogen only thing.
It doesn't seem possible.......but there it is.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 25, 2010, 08:40:31 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 24, 2010, 01:01:38 AM
Gary:

Well, he was doing A with just a frayed wire but now uses a diode in a test tube of water. Yes, just like Jeanna could add more and more leds to her Jeana circuit JT and the amp draw went down, Dr. Stiffler has found something similar with using a diode in the water. The more he adds, it does not increase the power requirement and yet he gets more and more gas and now, ONLY hydrogen. I really do not understand this. Also, there is not connection to the diode at all so yes, kind of like the SEC and the AV plug with an led on it I suppose.

I finally found the link to the video here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdPpXWpn_tw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdPpXWpn_tw)

Bill

It is a very strange thing that is happening with these exciter circuits. I am actually back working with them and have found some very interesting effects. The way that I understand this circuit is that the AV plug/led/cap what ever is a closed loop circuit that is independant of the exciter circuit and therefore actually run mostly on the potential energy of the exciter circuit. This is why you can add more and more AV circuits without changing the input power requirements on the exciter circuite and in some case bring the ma's draw down.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 26, 2010, 07:20:04 AM

what is the best way to mausere the output voltage of a pick up coil with a dmm i wont to see instent power not what i can build up in a cap ty

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on June 26, 2010, 08:11:04 AM

Not sure what you are asking, my exciter circuit is a lot different from the Dr. but mine will charge up 10-100uf almost instantly but can also charge 1000-10,000 in a short time. Using a DMM or a scope I connect in the usual way. I have not looked at total voltage yet but I know it can light a neon (1 side) with an AV plug and no cap so you're looking at 80-90v I would think.

Hope this helps.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 26, 2010, 03:04:22 PM

well with just a diode on the + side of the secondory i get 40 or 50 volt dc about double that ac reading
but it fills the cap to the 40 or 50 also but slower not instent
but i gues it would be instent with no load

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 26, 2010, 04:25:56 PM

this is strange im getting 190vdc and well the ac voltage is off the scale i mean litraly it is zeroing out dmm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: The Observer on June 27, 2010, 01:25:49 AM

Greetings,

I created a Penny Pill Jar Battery (with Bolt).
1 Jar gives an approximate voltage of .650 Volts.

Two of of them in series run a JT just fine !

Will be interesting to see how long it will last.
The Picture Below should explain.

The Observer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 27, 2010, 01:49:48 AM

Observer:

Nice idea! By using just tap water, my guess is they should last quite a while. We will see. Good job.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on June 27, 2010, 04:11:21 AM

Quote from: dasimpson on June 26, 2010, 04:25:56 PM
this is strange im getting 190vdc and well the ac voltage is off the scale i mean litraly it is zeroing out dmm.
The problem with digital multimeters is their inability to give any kind of true reading when checking these pulsed waveforms, and in some cases you can easily destroy them!! If the output was steady state DC then then a measurement can be taken. The JT waveforms are pulses which can be of a complex nature, rich in harmonics; the ideal instrument of course is an oscilloscope. If you are unsure of the output voltage amplitude you can put together a simple attenuator network by consisting of say three or four high value resistors connected in series, either 20K or 100K (keep the values the same) connect one end of the string to common ground -ve and the other end to you output. The output value will be divided down, using 4 x 100k the last in the chain connected to ground will share 1/4 of the output. At least this way you prevent overloading your test instruments. The load on the circuit using the values suggested is insignificant. M

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 27, 2010, 07:11:46 AM

wow i used to have that exact electronics kit havent scene one for years

Quote from: The Observer on June 27, 2010, 01:25:49 AM
Greetings,

I created a Penny Pill Jar Battery (with Bolt).
1 Jar gives an approximate voltage of .650 Volts.

Two of of them in series run a JT just fine !

Will be interesting to see how long it will last.
The Picture Below should explain.

The Observer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 27, 2010, 07:43:42 AM

this is my latest joule thief experement
i have seen somthing like it befor here but my winds or less and more in places anyway ill post some pics
the thing that has shocked me is this has been running 15 hours on a aaa 1.2v 650ma battery
the parts are the toriod i got out of an old stereo it was around the power cable best i can work out is it the same size as the goldmine 5/for a doller 1inch od and 1/2inch id
resister is a 1k
transister is 2n3904
the 2 diodes i dont know salvage lol
the toriod hase 7 base winds 7 coller winds they are two pickups coils of 15 winds each they are wired in series with a diode on the positive sides of the coil so basicly a 30 wind pickup
i have 11 leds lit what i have left from the 100 i got lol ups they really dont handle abuse well

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 27, 2010, 11:03:39 AM

well it has now been going for 18 hours the leds are getting dimmer and dimmer would take a photo but the camera seems to make them look brighter then they are

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: The Observer on June 27, 2010, 11:25:37 AM

Pirate,

Thanks for the compliment.

If these things last till the metal is gone... there is alot of power in 1 Pill Jar.

The Observer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 29, 2010, 01:53:22 AM

be very carefull what we research here my friends i woke up this morning to my pc been off upon turning it on i found my internet security was removed all my favarotes have gone all my pictures hav gone aka wireing dirgrams and photos of my work
i am posting this from my laptop untill i can change the mac address on my pc i do not trust it till i can do that and format
seems to me ppl dont wont use finding out the truth to free energy

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on June 29, 2010, 12:17:23 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on June 29, 2010, 01:53:22 AM
...seems to me ppl dont wont use finding out the truth to free energy

@all
IMPORTANT TIP?
Make daily CD ROM backups!!!
Now I know why I like to work on borrowed computers. My SanDisk is around my neck on a lanyard all the time.

--Lee

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 29, 2010, 06:30:27 PM

i have a home server that dose all the backups daily weekly monthly etc i then have them backed up offsite the real importent stuff is in usb pens in a pouch on my belt

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: The Observer on June 30, 2010, 03:22:41 AM

Greetings,

The Penny Pill Jar Battery Experiment is going well.
4 days and Counting... the batteries run better on their side for some reason,
LED is running Bright.

Anyways... I do have an Invention.
It could be a World Changer.

I'm thinking a (2 different metal)/(tap water) Battery could run for years if not a decade.
Could be wrong... but I am an optimist. ;o)

A large scale model of this that charges your 12Volt Battery system used in Solar/ Wind 24/7 might be the ticket.... Yea

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 30, 2010, 08:28:36 AM

is the bolt zinc ?

Quote from: The Observer on June 27, 2010, 01:25:49 AM
A,

I created a Penny Pill Jar Battery (with Bolt).
1 Jar gives an approximate voltage of .650 Volts.

Two of of them in series run a JT just fine !

Will be interesting to see how long it will last.
The Picture Below should explain.

The Observer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: zhak on June 30, 2010, 11:31:59 AM

Hi, here gathered at leisure small, self-joule thief
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm3LPMQ-xdU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm3LPMQ-xdU)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 30, 2010, 11:53:04 AM

Quote from: zhak on June 30, 2010, 11:31:59 AM
Hi, here gathered at leisure small, self-joule thief
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm3LPMQ-xdU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm3LPMQ-xdU)

Hi zhak,

What do you mean self?

When I make a jt circuit that blinks like that one, I am NOT satisfied.
It COULD be made to build on itself and blink faster, but I did not see that happen on that video
Is that your video?
If it is yours, please increase the resistance of the base resistor to make the blink faster.

@observer,
Are you really recharging a battery from your pill bottle?
How long does this take?
And I am not sure why you are doing this when you can run a jtc directly?
I suppose the cd player needs faster amps than the pill bottle can deliver. Is that it?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: The Observer on June 30, 2010, 12:37:38 PM

Da

I think it's a Regular Old Stainless Steel Bolt... Cheapest Bolt you can get at ACE.

Jeanna,

I have not tried charging a NiMh with the pill jars yet...
At this point it is next to a forgone conclusion that will work.
The Pill Jars give off Amps and Volts just like any other power supply.
The more Pennies the more Amps... (voltage stays the same)

I am curious how long they will last.
I am wondering since there is no acid.. that the metals will not disintegrate or disintegrate very slowly..
Which would mean, with fresh water every now and again, the things would run virtually forever.

I also left out the possibility of a 2nd Joule Thief connected to the Jars that then Recharges the Batteries in my diagram.

The Reason to put in a couple rechargables is that the pill jars will give off energy 24/7...
The stored energy can be used for the few hours a Lamp is actually used.
Smaller Pill Jars will thus be able to run the Lamp.

The Idea is that any item that is used intermittently (and possibly requires alot of Amps)
would use less "Pill Jar Volume" if the energy is stored during none use hours.

I think you kinda figured that.

The Observer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: zhak on June 30, 2010, 03:07:19 PM

Yes jeanna is my video, I'll obey your advice to increase the resistance. Long working device paired with a super capacitor at 1F, almost a day

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on June 30, 2010, 03:57:51 PM

Quote from: zhak on June 30, 2010, 03:07:19 PM
Yes jeanna is my video, I'll obey your advice to increase the resistance. Long working device paired with a super capacitor at 1F, almost a day

WOW almost one day, on one touch of the battery to capacitor? wow.

This is what I find so very interesting about the joule thief.
I seems to be able to re-use some of the energy that gets into the system, and unless we push the limits on how little it can use (as you did) we will not suspect it is coming around again.
xee2 always insisted on using a capacitor across the battery leads, and I am beginning to always put one there too.
A 1F super cap is even better.

About my suggestion, if you are providing less mA than the joule thief can use, then increasing the resistance will not help to stop the flashing, but even then, you might get a steady-on light with a bigger cap, although you might have to wait for it to get started a little longer.

Since it was your video and I did not understand what you were saying, ;) I will ask you about the way you reversed the battery to the capacitor leads.
Was that just because they were reversed the first time?
or
is that a trick to get this to last longer?

Thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: zhak on July 02, 2010, 02:01:37 PM

You speak about the super condenser (Ð¸Ð¾Ð½Ð¸ÑÑ,Ñ€)?, 1F it prolongs a life for days.
jeanna
I have not understood your text a little!?
You want the scheme?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on July 02, 2010, 04:50:34 PM

hi jenna i just read someware that you have a 24 led medside light and that it had been runniung for one month and was expecting it to last about 6 month

this sounds amazing could you explain how exactly you managed this pls
the one i have should manage 100 hours acording to power draw etc real world i seem to get 10 hours maybe my batterys ant fully charged or holding charge like they should but a month is just wow

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on July 03, 2010, 09:11:47 AM

something just downed on me if we go to big with this
wouldent we be creating a repertive emp bomb of sorts

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on July 03, 2010, 10:31:56 AM

i just got to page 1233 and wow ist finerly did something right now if this dose work then he may of done it (dont belive i said that withh all truth he needs a stray jacket and a padded cell but thats a diff story)

if the video head pulse motor can be replicated i belive it can be easy done i will try my sefl when i find the parts needed

now from what i worked out
one coil works as a dynimo putting vac a bridge then turns this into vdc into a cap ready for the reed switch to send power to the electromagnet to send the pulse needed to repel the roter(fly wheel)

now may take a bit of tuning and wheel a few coil winds to figure this out but wow it could work

now what if we adderd a 3rd coil to charge a battery etc
now this with jennas jaw dropping lamp from a jt i belive lighting a house has been solved

let me know if any one else can see if or can attempt it

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: The Observer on July 03, 2010, 01:53:12 PM

Greetings,

Update on the Penny Pill Jar JT which has been running strong for 8 or so days.

1. I put a (100uf) across the Batteries (two .6 Volt Penny Pill Jars in Series) and it made the Led Brighter.
- the Pill Jars have... a Bolt in the middle---> covered in Paper Towel--->Surrounded by 50 Pennies---> Immersed in water.

2. I made a Nantucket Nectar Bottle Cell... does put out same Voltage...and maybe double the Amps.
- I made it with a Longer Bolt and about 500 Pennies.
- The Pennies are new ones... so they are only coated with Copper ;o/... Zinc is on the inside.
- I also found out that the Steel Bolt is coated with Zinc.

3. I discovered the Batteries run best filled about 10% to 20% with Tap Water. (Haven't done any acids in the water)
- So capillary action keeps the Towel wet above the water line. (batteries are Upright.. had them on the side for awhile)

A few more small improvements and the Penny Pill Jar Lamp will be a certain reality. ;o) (see above)

Best Regards,
The Observer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on July 03, 2010, 02:51:08 PM

this is just an idea but could you use a peace of copper pipe with plastic stop ends and thread the zinc bar thru both ends and see what you get from that white viniger at a 50 50 mix could work very well

Quote from: The Observer on July 03, 2010, 01:53:12 PM
Greetings,

Update on the Penny Pill Jar JT which has been running strong for 8 or so days.

1. I put a (100uf) across the Batteries (two .6 Volt Penny Pill Jars in Series) and it made the Led Brighter.
- the Pill Jars have... a Bolt in the middle---> covered in Paper Towel--->Surrounded by 50 Pennies---> Immersed in water.

2. I made a Nantucket Nectar Bottle Cell... does put out same Voltage...and maybe double the Amps.
- I made it with a Longer Bolt and about 500 Pennies.
- The Pennies are new ones... so they are only coated with Copper ;o/... Zinc is on the inside.
- I also found out that the Steel Bolt is coated with Zinc.

3. I discovered the Batteries run best filled about 10% to 20% with Tap Water. (Haven't done any acids in the water)
- So capillary action keeps the Towel wet above the water line. (batteries are Upright.. had them on the side for awhile)

A few more small improvements and the Penny Pill Jar Lamp will be a certain reality. ;o) (see above)

Best Regards,
The Observer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on July 03, 2010, 04:43:47 PM

wooooooooohoooooooooooo i am finerly done catching up on this thread thank god for that lol

jeanna & electricme a big congraterlations are in order you have both done it light a house with low voltage
from what i read you also could run this off your earth bettery experements

now my idea what if you were to disconnect the lighting circuit in your house fuse box and then power that circuit with the jt
with all light fittings haveing the led ones you could easy move from room to room

Title: Re: Jule Thief + let me qualify that...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on July 05, 2010, 05:56:55 PM

the_big_m_in_ok said:

Quote
@all
IMPORTANT TIP?
Make daily CD ROM backups!!!
Now I know why I like to work on borrowed computers. My SanDisk is around my neck on a lanyard all the time.
--Lee

Okay, there's a problem with this:
The SanDisk is exactly the same in function as a computer hard drive. Even if you back up your data regularly, those files can still disappear after you log off the computer. Mine did.

Printing off hard copies of your data will eliminate this problem, even though it can get expensive for big files or a lot of data.

--Lee

Title: Re: Jule Thief + let me qualify that...
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 06, 2010, 01:11:18 AM

Quote from: the_big_m_in_ok on July 05, 2010, 05:56:55 PM
the_big_m_in_ok said:Okay, there's a problem with this:
The SanDisk is exactly the same in function as a computer hard drive. Even if you back up your data regularly, those files can still disappear after you log off the computer. Mine did.

Printing off hard copies of your data will eliminate this problem, even though it can get expensive for big files or a lot of data.

--Lee

I have 3 hard drives running on my computer, the master and then I back up to the other 2 and also run a 2 gig. flash drive as well. I have never, ever lost any data. I know there is always a first time but, with a little forethought and care, you can preserve your data. PS Do not get flash drives near any magnets, the same with hard drives as well.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief + let me qualify that...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on July 06, 2010, 11:58:30 AM

@Bill (Pirate88179)
With respect to your reply #13770:
I respect your experience as far as it goes. I believe you have the truth by what you know. However, as a former electronic/computer technician with professional experience in electronic R&D, my experience is simply different.

I did nothing different to the data that would cause it to disappear. That's not all: I had only one file that wasn't an aerospace reference .PDF It concerned a statement of fact in .DOC to present to the V.A. in order to upgrade my non-service connected pension. It was still on the disk. Someone selectively deleted all my backed up aircraft specification files. Only that one was left.

Please keep in mind: Cap-Z-ro has a point that there's a conspiracy do keep certain information from the public. I've become acquainted with the proof. Cap-Z-ro is correct in his assertion when it comes to that. But, that's all I'll say.

Print off a hardcopy of whatever drawings and electronic test results you think are important. Your computer isn't software safe, regardless! of how good your antiviral software is.

--Lee

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on July 06, 2010, 12:10:44 PM

after what happened to my files aka the hacker deleting things i keep copys on things not connected to my pc resently just starting makeing a book also for the info you never know they maybe a time they is no power the eletronic data ant much use then now i do have a good memory but things i dont seem to do for a long time to tend to go missing in my memory like playing guitar i did it for 10 years recenty picked up up after about 11 or 12 years and well couldent ethern remeber how to make a cord lol this also seems to have happened with other data maybe this is down to my bike accident i ant sure just know that stuff i dont do for as long time seams to slip

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on July 06, 2010, 03:00:52 PM

anyway i was searching the internet for a solar light sensing circuit so my night lights can turn on when the sun goes down but automaticly turn off when the sun comes up and charge the batterys i have had to move to 2.4vdc can not quite seem to get it rolling with 1.5vdc if anyone could let me know and help would be much apreacited btw the output goes to a joule thief

here is the circuit diagram

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on July 06, 2010, 03:05:44 PM

the one above is the low ampage one this one a 2 tranisitor model is the higher ampage version

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on July 06, 2010, 08:37:13 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on July 06, 2010, 12:10:44 PM
after what happened to my files aka the hacker deleting things i keep copys on things not connected to my pc ...

That's a good idea, but as long as you add data from the Internet, the disks you introduce to your system may have a virus on them.
Take a look at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BIOS

EEPROM chips are vulnerable to viruses, but the older DOS PROM DIP-style of hardware IC's was impossible to change, since the boot program was hardwired into the chip.

Leaving all outside disks off your computer's hard drive should help some and disabling the Internet firmware should also help more.

Quote
... resently just starting makeing a book also for the info you never know they maybe a time they is no power the eletronic data ant much use then

Very good idea. You might want to organize your information into categories for easy access. A paper with a schematic drawing should be virus-proof.

Quote
now i do have a good memory but things i dont seem to do for a long time to tend to go missing in my memory like playing guitar i did it for 10 years recenty picked up up after about 11 or 12 years and well couldent ethern remeber how to make a cord lol this also seems to have happened with other data maybe this is down to my bike accident i ant sure just know that stuff i dont do for as long time seams to slip

I'm 60, myself. I know what you mean. "Senior moment." ;D >:( :o ??? ::) :P :-[

--Lee

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 06, 2010, 09:10:23 PM

this 'computer' security issue comes up alot, this isn't the first time i have posted this link and surely will not be the last...

firewalls, AV software, etc. are a waste of CPU cycles. if you want to make it simple and easy then stop 'enumerating the badness'... it puts you in an endless arms race against the hackers/virii writers, a race you most likely will not win...

10 GOSUB LOOK_FOR_HOLES
20 IF HOLE_FOUND = FALSE THEN GOTO 50
30 GOSUB FIX_HOLE
40 GOTO 10
50 GOSUB CONGRATULATE_SELF
60 GOSUB GET_HACKED_EVENTUALLY_ANYWAY
70 GOTO 10

the six DUMBEST IDEAS in computer security:
1: default permit (allow all access)... this is stupid, if you can't see why, consider not having a computer.
2: enumerating the badness... also stupid, far more reasonable to enumerate the goodness.
3: penetrate and patch... also known as 'turd polishing'. if this worked, we would have run out of browser security bugs by now.
4: hacking is cool... another stupid idea. what's cool? good engineering is cool.
5: educating users... if this is your plan, plan to 'patch' your users every week or so.
6: action is better than inaction... more stupid. for it is often easier to not do something dumb than it is to do something smart.

the minor dumbs:
* "we're not a target" - yes, you are. worms aren't smart enough to realize that your web site/home network isn't interesting.
* "everyone would be secure if they all just ran <security-flavor-of-the-month>" - no, they wouldn't. operating systems have security problems because they are complex and system administration is not a solved problem in computing. until someone manages to solve system administration, switching to the flavor-of-the-month is going to be more damaging because you're making it harder for your system administrators to gain a level of expertise that only comes with time.
* "we don't need a firewall, we have good host security" - no, you don't. If your network fabric is untrustworthy every single application that goes across the network is potentially a target. 3 words: domain naming system.
* "we don't need host security, we have a good firewall" - no, you don't. If your firewall lets traffic through to hosts behind it, then you need to worry about the host security of those systems.
* "let's go production with it now and we can secure it later" - no, you won't. a better question to ask yourself is "If we don't have time to do it correctly now, will we have time to do it over once it's broken?" sometimes, building a system that is in constant need of repair means you will spend years investing in turd polish because you were unwilling to spend days getting the job done right in the first place.
* "we can't stop the occasional problem" - yes, you can. would you travel on commercial airliners if you thought that the aviation industry took this approach with your life? I didn't think so.

see this article: http://www.ranum.com/security/computer_security/editorials/dumb/
don't forget to read richard feynman's "personal observations on the reliability of the space shuttle"! follow the link to it via the ranum.com article...

as an aside, USB drives DO NOT function the same as a hard drive. USB drives don't have moving parts and cannot handle the amount of read/write cycles a hard disk drive can... this is why computers still have hard disk drives instead of flash memory, and why they will continue to have hard disk drives...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on July 06, 2010, 10:10:29 PM

@all

Did you know that the fields around the JT can cause the illusion of over unity? But why is this... RF? Ten thousand dollars worth of tests could be wrong......

-Altrez

p.s working on a patent more to come hopefully sooner then later.

Title: Re: Jule Thief + let me qualify that...
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 06, 2010, 10:29:03 PM

Quote from: the_big_m_in_ok on July 06, 2010, 11:58:30 AM
@Bill (Pirate88179)
With respect to your reply #13770:
I respect your experience as far as it goes. I believe you have the truth by what you know. However, as a former electronic/computer technician with professional experience in electronic R&D, my experience is simply different.

I did nothing different to the data that would cause it to disappear. That's not all: I had only one file that wasn't an aerospace reference .PDF It concerned a statement of fact in .DOC to present to the V.A. in order to upgrade my non-service connected pension. It was still on the disk. Someone selectively deleted all my backed up aircraft specification files. Only that one was left.

Please keep in mind: Cap-Z-ro has a point that there's a conspiracy do keep certain information from the public. I've become acquainted with the proof. Cap-Z-ro is correct in his assertion when it comes to that. But, that's all I'll say.

Print off a hardcopy of whatever drawings and electronic test results you think are important. Your computer isn't software safe, regardless! of how good your antiviral software is.

--Lee

I have been using and building computers since the days of the old Intel 8086 chip. I have never heard of any instance of anyone or any entity removing info from a hard drive to block energy device advances. Not one. Not ever. With my intelligence experience, my engineering background and in my many years in the PI business this has never happened in one documented case that I have ever been made aware of.

Now, many folks like Mylow, etc, "claim" the MIB was suppressing his "working" device. We all know how that one turned out. I believe all of the other cases to be the same.

If, in your case, software was on your drive that selectively removed some data, that software would still be on there. Granted, it make take some hard drive forensics software to locate it but, it would still be fairly easy to detect. Did you try doing this? The best anti-virus approach is hardware and not software.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief + let me qualify that...
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 06, 2010, 10:43:44 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on July 06, 2010, 10:29:03 PM
Now, many folks like Mylow, etc, "claim" the MIB was suppressing his "working" device. We all know how that one turned out. I believe all of the other cases to be the same.

it sure is funny how the 'mib' are always suppressing, watching, hacking, etc. those who have nothing isn't it. ::)

i haven't run an anti-virus or firewall program (because 'enumerating the badness' is pointless. pointless is dumb.) for over 10 years and have never once had the least bit of problems. the only data i ever lost was due to mechanical failure of the drive, and that was only a couple files, the rest of the data was easily recovered from the platters...

and it was i who hacked big_m's computer and deleted his aircraft specs, not the mib... ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on July 07, 2010, 08:32:24 AM

i never said it was men in black i just said that all the stuff i had been looking at and logging had been deleted
yes i guess it could of been me moveing stuff to another drive insted of copying but it was also strange that my antivirus wasent working and nore my mouse

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on July 07, 2010, 08:37:33 AM

well as of this post i will be working with ubuntu from now on heard so many ppl say it is more secure then mircrosoft well time to find out

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on July 07, 2010, 12:54:03 PM

[A author=dasimpson link=topic=6123.msg248082#msg248082 date=1278506253]
well as of this post i will be working with ubuntu from now on heard so many ppl say it is more secure then mircrosoft well time to find out
[/quote]

There is a problem with ubuntu and that is that it does not allow to run any windows programs on it.
I mean if you have a program that you usually work with in windows, when you try to use it inside ubuntu it is even not recognized as a program anymore.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on July 07, 2010, 01:11:57 PM

yeah i know about that part most windows programs i use they are linux versions plus the fast some windows programs work under wine or an os emulator

Title: Re: Jule Thief + let me qualify that...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on July 07, 2010, 01:30:22 PM

[A author=Pirate88179 link=topic=6123.msg248042#msg248042 =1278469743]
... If, in your case, software was on your drive that selectively removed some data, that software would still be on there. ...

I've heard rumors of theoretical things happening:
Some conspiracy theorists maintain there are astoundingly devious, specially written viruses that can do a hell of a lot of undetectable damage to a computer and then erase itself without a trace.

"intel gurl", a present or former "Scholar" Member of http://www.abovetopsecret.com , who works for a large defense contractor, has told all to read on that site: That site is regularly monitored for breaches in national security according to regulations or laws that have been around since 1951 with Eisenhower's patent search Executive Order.

I say this site is no different. All sites can, and will, be monitored. The wonderfully efficient MIB's have the law on their side to do what they want to who they want and nobody can legally say, "Cr@p".

Quote
Granted, it make take some hard drive forensics software to locate it but, it would still be fairly easy to detect. Did you try doing this?

I have to borrow a computer all the time and don't have the wherewithal to do that. Those "covert?" viruses are the reason.

Quote
The best anti-virus approach is hardware and not software.

I've been computer literate about as long as you (1980). I know that hardware trumps software, especially in a DOS boot file in ROM. To upgrade, you need a new chip, since it's immune to viruses.

I was confided to by a few people awhile ago who had old information, but it was possibly similar in quality to yours, depending on what you did? They spoke only generally and hypothetically and then left it to my personal experience to try and come up with a more complete picture.

I do know something about electronic diagnostics and computer R&D. I did it for a living once. That's all I can say, and "intel gurl" would probably do the same. She just has direct, recent experience in a field my Dad worked in for 30 years, so I know what she can say and not say. I had a clearance (secret) in the Air Force, but one old man I spoke with had a really high clearance years ago.

I've said enough.

My personal opinion?
The letter 'A' in your quote at the top of this post shouldn't be there because I didn't put it there. That doesn't mean it's impossible. I. Didn't. Do. It.

It's there for a reason. Can Stefan stop it? He can only try. I don't have the type of personality that plays tricks on people for fun. I have Asperger's syndrome and they don't play those games. They resent being made fun of.

--Lee

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 07, 2010, 02:17:11 PM

Lee:

Yes I have seen those letter "A"s cropping up in quoted sections around the forums. I am not sure this indicates some malicious virus attack probably more like some software glitch in SQL or something. But, I agree, they should not be there.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 07, 2010, 02:44:18 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on July 07, 2010, 02:17:11 PM
Lee:

Yes I have seen those letter "A"s cropping up in quoted sections around the forums. I am not sure this indicates some malicious virus attack probably more like some software glitch in SQL or something. But, I agree, they should not be there.

Bill

spot on bill. it's a code issue. not the mib, nor any other conspiracy...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 07, 2010, 05:14:33 PM

Hi everybody,
I have a new project.
I will be making an IR joule thief.

But it might be a few weeks.
I just learned that I do not have the ir leds anywhere around here, so I need to buy them.
grr.
oh well.....

--------

:D ubuntu :D
The security updates are free too.
And sun open office comes for free and can read and write anything that happens in ms land.
I can read .sls files .doc files and even powerpoint presentations all on sun openoffice for free.
(I can also make them compatible for those still living in ms land. It is easy .)
Gimp is as good as or better than photoshop and as I am learning it is even easier to use.
and...
ubuntu is way faster. I don't know why or how, but it is faster.

@Wilby,
Of course you are exactly right.
GOTOSUB etc...
;D

some musings:
I believe that silicon has a bit of quantum intelligence or is more susceptible to quantum activities and if you hate your computer it will definitely give you a lot of trouble, and if you expect trouble, you will get it. Of course you can do this in your life without a computer, but it seems (to me) that the silicon is a facilitator.
---------
Zhak.
I do not understand what I need to say.
Yes, I was asking about the 1F supercap.
Yes, maybe a schema will help.

------
@dasimpson.
congratulations! and thank you so much for reading it all. You are a real member of this jt group.

Quoteanyway i was searching the internet for a solar light sensing circuit so my night lights can turn on when the sun goes down but automaticly turn off when the sun comes up and charge the batterys i have had to move to 2.4vdc can not quite seem to get it rolling with 1.5vdc if anyone could let me know and help would be much apreacited btw the output goes to a joule thief

I also want to do this.
I do not understand why it takes so much voltage, unless you are using 2 transistors
I am still manually charging my batteries.
I am using the solar garden lights as rechargers. I use a NiMH in place of the NiCd that they come with and the battery is well charged in one day. (and a well charged battery will last many evenings.)

@Altrez
a patent?
huh?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on July 07, 2010, 07:07:49 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on July 07, 2010, 02:17:11 PM
Lee:
Yes I have seen those letter "A"s cropping up in quoted sections around the forums. I am not sure this indicates some malicious virus attack probably more like some software glitch in SQL or something. But, I agree, they should not be there.
Bill

Can that be fixed?
Wait, you may have a point. I haven't see that anywhere else but this site, now that I recall. If it's a glitch, it might or might not get worse. For a reliable, professional-looking 'Web site presentation, Stefan may want to look into it on behalf of OU.com.
Just a suggestion.

--Lee

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 07, 2010, 07:23:02 PM

Hi Lee,
I think it happens when a post has been written in a writing program then copy >pasted into the php section.
I see it on my webmail too.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on July 07, 2010, 11:57:24 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 07, 2010, 07:23:02 PM
Hi Lee,
I think it happens when a post has been written in a writing program then copy >pasted into the php section.
I see it on my webmail too.
jeanna

Hi jeanna,
You mean on something like Hotmail, Yahoo! or msn.com? If so this, is more serious than I thought.

This place is closing. Will return.

--Lee

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on July 08, 2010, 02:10:33 AM

think i have manage to get it to work on 1.5 volt i put a cap were the led and resister is then run the joule thief after that my guess is that with only 1,5 volt the ampage loss is to much so wont power the joule thief but the cap seems to work they may flash to start with till the transistor fully opens

to charging a battery in a day from a solar panel im in the uk my solar panel kicks out about 40ma at best so takes awhile but seems to top up good enough for a full night worth of light i have found better panels on the net a 3.6volt one at 200ma this should do better i did find some 0.5volt 410ma ones these may be better but i will need a few to get the 3.6v - 4v needed to charge a 2.4volt battery bank

and to ubuntu if you ever get stuck google it you csan find most answers there for any problems on ubuntu at moment i am testing a few of the circuit programs to find the best or easyerst one for me to use and yes jeanna your right gimp is the open sorce version of paintshop pro and photoshop

Quote from: jeanna on July 07, 2010, 05:14:33 PM
Hi everybody,
I have a new project.
I will be making an IR joule thief.

But it might be a few weeks.
I just learned that I do not have the ir leds anywhere around here, so I need to buy them.
grr.
oh well.....

--------

:D ubuntu :D
The security updates are free too.
And sun open office comes for free and can read and write anything that happens in ms land.
I can read .sls files .doc files and even powerpoint presentations all on sun openoffice for free.
(I can also make them compatible for those still living in ms land. It is easy .)
Gimp is as good as or better than photoshop and as I am learning it is even easier to use.
and...
ubuntu is way faster. I don't know why or how, but it is faster.

@Wilby,
Of course you are exactly right.
GOTOSUB etc...
;D

some musings:
I believe that silicon has a bit of quantum intelligence or is more susceptible to quantum activities and if you hate your computer it will definitely give you a lot of trouble, and if you expect trouble, you will get it. Of course you can do this in your life without a computer, but it seems (to me) that the silicon is a facilitator.
---------
Zhak.
I do not understand what I need to say.
Yes, I was asking about the 1F supercap.
Yes, maybe a schema will help.

------
@dasimpson.
congratulations! and thank you so much for reading it all. You are a real member of this jt group.
I also want to do this.
I do not understand why it takes so much voltage, unless you are using 2 transistors
I am still manually charging my batteries.
I am using the solar garden lights as rechargers. I use a NiMH in place of the NiCd that they come with and the battery is well charged in one day. (and a well charged battery will last many evenings.)

@Altrez
a patent?
huh?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 08, 2010, 02:22:13 AM

Dasimpson:

I bought 3 solar cells last year from, I think it was called the Surplus Shed". They were like $5 ea. and 1.5 volts @ 1 amp. I made a solar panel out of them wired in parallel to give me 1.5 volts @ 3 amps. They seem to work well.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on July 08, 2010, 08:20:18 AM

cool i think 3 amp might be to much my batterys have a trickle charge of 250ma but with how little sun we have that 3 amp might be good
looks like they might of stopped selling them bugger oh well i was just thinking if i got a 5 or 6v solar panle to charge 3 batterys but only pull power from one for the joule thief or maybe put an led on the posertive to drop the voltage

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 08, 2010, 07:21:28 PM

Dasimpson:

I am sorry, I made an error. Those cells were .5 volts @ 1 amp, not the 1.5 volts I had stated. So, I have them hooked up to give me 1.5 volts @ 1 amp.

I am sorry for the mistake, it was late when I was typing that.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on July 09, 2010, 01:44:01 AM

ah no problem m8 i know the exact ones you mean

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 09, 2010, 03:02:12 PM

I am finding something interesting about the jtc as I experiment with lasersaber's air batteries.

I have a couple of these that put out about 30mA
So, this should be enough to run a jtc with a secondary, and indeed it is.
BUT I cannot get anything like the high voltage spikes from this galvanic pile battery that I do from a chemical AAA.

So, I am wondering what this means about the joule thief and how it works.

I am beginning to think that the jtc is "asking for" a high amps or high charge for a very short time with each pulse. If that high charge is not available, the secondary output is lower.

If this is so, then a higher frequency jtc should drain a battery faster than a lower frequency jtc, which it does NOT.
The smaller transistors are on jtc's that have higher frequency and they last for at least 10 hours.

The dmm does not show any of this, of course because it is too fast to read, but this might explain why a 2500mAH NiMH will only last 5 to 6 hours when the dmm says it is drawing 100mA. It SHOULD be able to last at least 12 hours but it does not. If I use the rheostat at the battery where lidmotor added one, which is at the pos of the battery, the battery life improves.

I checked this out using my scope, on a few high power circuits I have and the highest I could get using the air battery was 28v where it was over 450 with a AAA. I even put a few in series to see if the higher input voltage would help, and it seemed that this made very little difference!

It is very curious but I am glad that at least something is addressing the curiously lower than predicted life of the battery which runs the jtc.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 09, 2010, 04:07:57 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 09, 2010, 03:02:12 PM
I am beginning to think that the jtc is "asking for" a high amps or high charge for a very short time with each pulse. If that high charge is not available, the secondary output is lower.

indeed it is 'asking for'. the 'dead' AA battery is 'dead' in respect to its voltage 'capacity', 1v instead of 1.5-6v but still contains a large 'capacity' of amperage, relatively speaking of course. the jt uses this amperage to saturate the ferrite core which then effects the switch and it starts all over. your galvanic pile doesn't have this 'capacity' of amperage that the AA does... grossly simplified, sorry.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Rosphere on July 09, 2010, 04:34:41 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 09, 2010, 03:02:12 PM
I am finding something interesting about the jtc as I experiment with lasersaber's air batteries.

I have a couple of these that put out about 30mA
So, this should be enough to run a jtc with a secondary, and indeed it is.
BUT I cannot get anything like the high voltage spikes from this galvanic pile battery that I do from a chemical AAA.

So, I am wondering what this means about the joule thief and how it works...

I found a similar anomaly with my JTC MOSFET air-core variant, "Tubthumper." (Because I use a MOSFET instead of of an NPN-BJT, I need to use higher voltage. I use 9V. Like a weak AA to a standard JTC, a weak 9V will still thump my circuit.)

Anyway, I used a Radio Shack Nickel-Metal Hydride 9V instead of my typical Ray-o-vac Alkaline 9V and I found that my wavelength was around two scope divisions longer, (lower frequency.)

EDIT: Scope Shot, 0.1uS/DIV

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 09, 2010, 06:31:53 PM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on July 09, 2010, 04:07:57 PM
indeed it is 'asking for'. the 'dead' AA battery is 'dead' in respect to its voltage 'capacity', 1v instead of 1.5-6v but still contains a large 'capacity' of amperage, relatively speaking of course. the jt uses this amperage to saturate the ferrite core which then effects the switch and it starts all over. your galvanic pile doesn't have this 'capacity' of amperage that the AA does... grossly simplified, sorry.

Hi wilby,

I do not think this addresses what is happening.
I have enough current for plenty of toroid saturation.
I am getting 100-333KHz on various jtc's using the air battery, so there is plenty of ferrite saturation followed by switching.

No, I think there is another answer.
I am looking for higher volts and probably a sharper spike.

I also think it is pretty interesting that the amp-metering methods we have cannot pick this up.

I appreciate your suggestion.
Thank you,

jeanna

edit
You too rosphere. I am seeing more of a curved sinewave and less of a crazy-tall spike. But I think the differences between a toroid based jtc and a mosfet based one are too many to be able to narrow this down.
But this is interesting.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: mscoffman on July 09, 2010, 08:50:22 PM

Quote from: jeanna on July 09, 2010, 06:31:53 PM
Hi wilby,

I do not think this addresses what is happening.
I have enough current for plenty of toroid saturation.
I am getting 100-333KHz on various jtc's using the air battery, so there is plenty of ferrite saturation followed by switching.

No, I think there is another answer.
I am looking for higher volts and probably a sharper spike.

I also think it is pretty interesting that the amp-metering methods we have cannot pick this up.

I appreciate your suggestion.
Thank you,

jeanna

edit
You too rosphere. I am seeing more of a curved sinewave and less of a crazy-tall spike. But I think the differences between a toroid based jtc and a mosfet based one are too many to be able to narrow this down.
But this is interesting.

@jeanna

I think wilbyinhbriated's thinking is correct. In school they
taught us to always show a power source as a battery
with a resister in series with it. This is source's "internal
resistance" The air battery has a high internal resistance
due to lack of ion mobility. This assumes the 30ma is provided
when the air battery is "fully charged". The worn out AA carbon
zinc battery still has a low internal resistance and it could put
out many amps instantaneously when it was new. You may even
have to worry about them overheating. This is what the JT
pulses against.

One way to correct this situation (to some extent) is to use
an electrolytic capacitor (note+/-) in parrallel with the battery.
The capacitor
has low internal resistance so should act as an averager for
the JT to pull against. It will charge from the battery the whole
time but supply high current pulse only a short part of the total
cycle. Any DC source that is not a battery should likely have
this pulse filtering cap across it. Electrolytic caps value go from
1uf to thousands depending on the pulse rate. If you want a
really long lived electrolytic (they are funky devices, see
wikipedia) then use a tantalum type capacitor.

---

The way they build mosfets is responsible for the it's
problems as the control gate has high capacitance
to the other electrodes. That capacitance doesn't
matter at DC, turning on/off headlights in an auto
for example, but as one goes into audio frequencies
that capacitor starts wasting energy. By the time
it gets to RF, I'd say it's as difficult to design with
as bipolars are.

Don't worry, as I have said before the overunity field is one
heck of a difficult place to learn any electronics at all.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 14, 2010, 09:43:18 PM

Hi MarkS
Yes, with these batteries I have been using the joule thief circuits (with secondary) that employ a 1F memory cap across the battery leads. This is not a tantalum cap and it charges and discharges more slowly, but once the lights are on they stay on and frequently build in brightness.

I plan to make one of these air batteries that puts out 60-100mA just to see if conrad is right about needing twice the mA that the dmm says are being used.
I think his observation is right and pertinent here.

I doubt if I can make my scope show what his does so I have to trust his word, but this will answer a lot of questions that I have had since the time I was working with the 2 secondaries circuit and began to not trust the dmm across the 1 ohm resistor telling the real amps draw.

Thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sm0ky2 on July 15, 2010, 01:13:44 AM

Quote
I am finding something interesting about the jtc as I experiment with lasersaber's air batteries.

I have a couple of these that put out about 30mA
So, this should be enough to run a jtc with a secondary, and indeed it is.
BUT I cannot get anything like the high voltage spikes from this galvanic pile battery that I do from a chemical AAA.

So, I am wondering what this means about the joule thief and how it works.

@ Jeanna

that is the exact line of thinking that made me put this down for a while....

do this:: play with some caps and find one you can charge and set off that transistor

charge it.
so you have a known value, uF/ voltage
JT it, and make sure you can charge the cap, fire the transistor, and pulse the LED.
once you get it set up, remove the LED and replace it with a 2nd cap of known value and a diode.

charge primary cap, and flip the switch.
then measure your voltage on the 2nd cap.
now you have two discrete energy values to compare.
in and out.
wilby is leading you in the right direction.
but you should see what happens for yourself.

theres no doubt this can be "useful". but it was not exactly what i expected. if ya know what i mean....
---------------------------------------------------------------

about the current, i think i posted this way back when on one of the threads, but it may have been passed over.. anyhow

i dont know what kind of scope you're using, but if you can set it to show you current amplitude, and set the divisions way high
it basically looks like a voltage spike. a triangle-wave

i believe it has to do with the time-delay from the current establishing the magnetic field through the core, and the subsequent field collapse.

the DMM is showing you the mean-current, which sits about where the green line is.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 15, 2010, 02:57:16 PM

Hi Sm0ky2,
Thank you for your explanation.

I cannot get any amplitude of current, or any current on my scope, just volts.
As far as I know, anyway.

If I am just making a joule thief circuit the amps draw is something, lets say 50mA
When I put a secondary coil onto the toroid, the mag flux spikes as the volts of the primary do but in a greatly amplified manner.
The dmm is unable to determine a change in the primary jtc pulse circuit, and in fact if it sees any change, it usually goes down if I add some leds to that secondary.

I concentrated a lot of effort last year on how to make something of those spikes, and make something greater from them once they were produced by the primary pulse circuit (the jtc)

Maybe we are talking of 2 different things.
I have not used the transistor C-E for a led since the beginning.
I have been looking at the addition of coils that use the same pulses at different places in the circuit, but not the C-E junx.
Gadgetmall said he had ou from doing something with a cap at the C-E junx, and whether it was ou or not doesn't matter to me. but when a large capacity boost cap was connected to the transistor C-E, I could not use the secondary at all.

I will try your suggestion to see what is available from this very limited GP = galvanic pile. It could tell an interesting tale.

Thanks.

Also, btw, wilby is usually right in his comments. It takes me a while to understand what he is getting at, because I must try everything myself first. ( ;) just my way )

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sm0ky2 on July 15, 2010, 11:29:32 PM

@ jeanna

the only time i used the C-E cap was when i was powering it off the Earth Battery. for some reason this was necessary, until i figured out how to draw more current from the earth.

where i primarily used my caps was on the secondary.
what i found was, the bigger the load on the secondary, the more it consumed the flux created by the primary (which means less field makes it into the core), and this drops the current through the primary. what i mean by that is,. even though you will measure more current being used from the battery while the secondary is active... the current feeding through the C-E (your primary LED) lowers.
its like the secondary sucks the magnetic induction right out of the primary coil.

the most interesting results i had was when i was playing around with double-rings. the secondary would step up my voltage and operate another JT circuit, on a larger ring.

i haphazardly used a 2-diode rectification into a cap. think i was trying to get a measurement of the second JT's secondary output.
and overcharged its voltage on accident.
1 diode in and 1 diode out.
i had it placed on the secondary coil of the second JT
and it caused a 2500uF, 50v cap to litterally explode. the top of the cap split open in puff of smoke (powdery stuff?)
bad idea......

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 16, 2010, 12:09:09 AM

Quote from: sm0ky2 on July 15, 2010, 11:29:32 PM

the most interesting results i had was when i was playing around with double-rings. the secondary would step up my voltage and operate another JT circuit, on a larger ring.

hmm That is what I was expecting to happen when I put the output of one jtc as the input to another.
I was not able to do that. (but I discovered a lot of cool things.)

I don't remember seeing the details on that from you. Did you share them?
Did you have a whole second jtc? or did you use the pulses from one primary to excite 2 toroids, one of which was larger than the other?
(That is an interesting idea even if it wasn't what you did.)
...

Quotei had it placed on the secondary coil of the second JT
and it caused a 2500uF, 50v cap to litterally explode. the top of the cap split open in puff of smoke (powdery stuff?)
bad idea......

eeesh...
yeah, better be careful.

I have the scope and do not need to take that kind of risk. I am glad of that.

-----
Being able to double the step-up voltage would help a lot because if I am going to start with 25-30mA and 1.5v from an air battery/galvanic pile I want to get at least 7 spiky volts from the secondary so I can run a bunch of leds in parallel at full brightness.
I have done this with a longer mag ribbon on a bigger copper pipe (essentially a bigger pile), but this is a limit I would like to push.

The other thing to do is to add a repeater cap across the secondary wires for what I call a joule toss. That works.

Please explain how you made a second level joule thief work.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sm0ky2 on July 16, 2010, 01:05:06 AM

@ Jeanna

i dont know if i commented a great deal on what i was doing. there was a lot of learning going on, i asked a bunch of questions
repeatedly when necessary, until i got someone to explain it in a way that made sense (you helped a lot during those times!)

i toyed around with the "daisy-chain", running 2 and 3 additional cores off of the original JT, power levels scaled down on each additional core, and it was dissapointing...

this one here was the set-up i had the most fun with.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9RgjAgSQOg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9RgjAgSQOg)

what i did here was place the emitter connection of the original JT in place of the + "battery" on the second, larger JT circuit.
the - is connected to the negative battery side of the circuit.
which is common-ground.
so theres two transistors here, same old (mostly) dead battery i was using the whole time, and i managed to light up quite a few LED's rather brightly. you can see them in the video even with patio lights on.
looks like in this one i had 1 LED across the C-E of each JT, then 4 on the secondaries of each core. when i removed the LED from the original (1-inch) JT, the rest got brighter. i eventually gave up on that, because my 7-inch core is not the proper material.
its an old tempered-iron ring, was made for hanging... something..
eats a ton of energy, to build up a field.

[edit] - correction: after looking through my cores and finding the one unsed in that experiment, that is actually a stainless steel alloy, from a stand type thing. but it has similar negative effects as my iron cores.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 16, 2010, 01:50:50 AM

The only time I attempted to chain 2 JT's did not work out well. I did not try too hard though because I realized (possibly incorrectly) that the primary needs dc and the secondary outputs ac.

But now, thinking about it, my EER puts out either pulsed dc or ac and I can run JT's from that so, now, I don't really know. I had always thought the primary input HAD to be dc.....maybe not.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on July 16, 2010, 10:15:00 AM

if the input is ac they they is no need for the transistor and resistor unless the joule thief acts like a cap by storing the powr in the toiord if you catch my drift

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on July 16, 2010, 10:15:44 AM

chaining jt's wont work because of so little current to run the second jt

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: The Observer on July 16, 2010, 11:21:47 AM

Da,

Chaining JT's does work... since it does need DC... all you do is put a Cap and Diode at the output and walla you have a DC Source for a second JT.

I guess it would be 1/2 of a charge pump that provides the DC Source.

Best Regards,
The Observer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on July 16, 2010, 11:27:04 AM

i stand corrected lol but dose the second joule thief put out more power then it would off a as a singl jt on a battery
and i have done it my self but just got a slow pulsed led but very very bright
for me for this to be working it would have to be twice the volage output as a single jt and the light must be always on

the idea i have is if you used a small solar panel running a jt off it then a second jt off the first for upping the power more to say charge a offgrid batterys bank

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: The Observer on July 16, 2010, 11:43:58 AM

Da,

Well since each Spike is really many Spikes.. it may be possible to hook the Second Joule thief to a resonant circuit that is drivin by resonant ring.

I understand your Solar/JT/JT idea.

Mine is Penny Pill Jars/JT/JT to provide alot of power from a little.

The Observer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sm0ky2 on July 16, 2010, 01:24:19 PM

chaining JT's works, but i wasn't happy with it. maybe that was just the way i was doing it.,

thats why i ended up using the transistor output from the first, as the (+) input of the second, and hooked them both on a common ground. like JT's in series. this works very well to power both cores. and you have the secondary coils from both cores as an additional output.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on July 16, 2010, 07:07:43 PM

i was woundering observer is a long peace of copper pipe with plastic ends and a zink rode thru the middle willed with electrolite would work the same way as a penny jar

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 16, 2010, 07:09:50 PM

Ah, this is a nice discussion!

I didn't find that chaining worked = better output than one jtc, but I am with you da, that I am wanting to use a jtc to charge my bigger batteries for off the grid living.

If I can get the airbat to get a high enough voltage maybe it will be the source for jt charging the 12v batteries.

Back to the subject, I decided that chaining didn't work because the input needed to be dc because the input was switching the base of the transistor.
But maybe that is not correct, as Bill suggests.
I see 2 interesting ways past this.
Thanks observer and sm0ky2 for those.

I made a couple of pix to load on the air battery thread, which I will do.
I used a powerful jtc which produces 441v spikes with a normal AA battery.
I got 45v 36Khz spikes from one 25mA airbat and put that to work lighting 3 bright whites IN SERIES which it did well.
Then to my surprise I switched to a 5.1mA airbat, and it was also able to light those 3 series leds , albeit more dimly.

So, there is still hope for this.
And I may not even need to use observers chain idea, which would be great because I do not want to rely on too many transistors per job.

Here is a link to the pix.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=9276.msg248889#msg248889 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=9276.msg248889#msg248889)

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on July 17, 2010, 05:28:15 PM

Resonance is cool. Consider shorting a charged capacitor. It will discharge until there is equal amounts of charge on either side of the capacitor. Not all charge has been removed from the plates it is just equal. Both glasses of water have the same level of potential energy in them. With resonance you can drag down one plate well below the other. The resonance pumps the capacitor super dry on one side and full on the other. You have two tanks of water one is empty the other is full. You open a valve between the two tanks and allow the water to run through a turbine the turbine spins does work and lights up a bulb. Until the tanks have equal amounts of water in them and the capacitor is said to be discharged. Now lets add a flywheel to the turbine. If we open the valve and close it real fast there is no action no discharge. The tanks stay pretty much as they were unaffected by our opening and closing the valve. Now we open the valve and let the turbine get up to speed. The tank that was full now starts to flow through the turbine with attached flywheel until the two are of equal volume. But this time something peculiar happens. The flywheel converts the turbine into a pump. The pump now totally empties the 1st tank and totally fills the second. If we leave the valve open this perfect match will go on indefinitely. Alternately filling and emptying the two tanks. We know this wont happen because of losses from the circuit like bad bearings on sthe turbine fluid getting by the turbine blades frictional losses in the pipes cavitation all sorts of stuff will happen. To overcome this problem to the tank that is being emptied let us add some water. What we find it that the addition of this water to the emptying tank helps prolong the flow as it adds more head pressure to the tank being emptied and not only that the filling tank has more water in it when the system comes to rest. It would be ridiculous of us to add water to the tank being filled as it would being working against us. Well after the addition of our little pulses of water addition to the emptying tank goes on for 2 or 3 thousand cycles we find that our tank circuit is going to overflow. Now it is time to take our little additions of water out of the oscillations and run them through an output circuit that will return the tanks to the original state of one full one empty. We do so by dumping the excess water out of the full tank not to the empty one but back through the pipe we were filling the empty tank with. The pressure to fill the empty tank could be a minimal scource since it was only introduced into the mostly empty tank so there shouldnt be any problem getting a load turbine to spin very powerfully returning the water collected in the oscillator back to whence it came from. The same turbine could also be spun each and every time we add water to the emptying tank. This can go on until there is absolutely no water around to go into and out of the tanks. This is not the case with charge. There is an entire columb worth of it stored up in the Earth. When our tank is running out of water going empty filling with holes whatever charge from the Earth can be added to the oscillator.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sm0ky2 on July 17, 2010, 11:55:34 PM

thats funny that you use water as an analogy here. one of my basic demonstrations of "OU" that i give to people when they try to hit me with all this "thermodynamic b.s.". i take a large tank of water with a small hose at the bottom, and use the pressure to shoot a tiny stream of water into a small tank, higher than the original tank.,
them let it drain back from the upper tank into the lower one, and show them how that can be used to gain excess energy, while still maintaining the same water in the lower tank at the end of the cycle.

electricity is much like water in many ways. with the right kind of "nozzle", i suspect you can charge a 2nd capacitor to a higher voltage, but less potential (F), then the power can be utilized, and fed back into the original cap. though i wouldn't know how to actually "do" that......

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on July 18, 2010, 03:03:18 AM

Hi folks, I like the example smOky2, also a large bellow with an air turbine attached to lower portion and a weighted cart set to roll up and off in cycles would be the same effect, energy gain from gravity. I was wondering if anyone here is watching what ltseung888 is doing in the 'Pulsed DC Transformer with Embedded Magnets' thread. He made an air-core toroid using lamp cord and is claiming good resonance results. So I picked up a 100ft. roll of 18 gauge speaker wire and I plan on setting it up like his except it will be in large solenoid format. I hope this will make tuning easier with this wire. He is using a certain amount of wire for a joule thief oscillator and wrapped over that with same amount of wire for secondary, I assume since it's two wires together that he's only using one of the secondary wires to tune to match the j.thief's primary and I would assume the same could be done with the other secondary wire. I've never tuned anything for resonance so it will be fun trying to figure it out. Let me know what you folks think.
peace love light
Tyson :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on July 18, 2010, 07:29:09 AM

Hi folks, I found a toroid shape I can use for the air-core joule thief, it's a brand new 4" diameter roll of mailing tape. Though after I found that, I was looking at some thicker 16 guage speaker wire I had and decided to make a bifilar pancake coil joule thief. Still going to make toroid design, but first I'm curious to see what this pancake coil will do. Will be testing later today.
peace love light
Tyson

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on July 18, 2010, 08:05:32 AM

While typing the post above I kept on envisioning the two tanks of water set on a childs seesaw. The two water tanks changing position as they alternately fill and empty. The oscillations could be maintained while doing work as each one got alternately light and heavy. I believe that Tesla describes electrical resonance better in his patents on transmission of electrical energy. This was before he went on the wireless quest. He used a tuned tank circuit with a capacitor at the far end of two buss wires. For inductors in the parallel lc he used motor windings. He fed the circuit from the mains with a sparkgap that automatically knew when it was time to pass current to the capacitor. The motor has high impedance to a short burst of input so the input ends up going straightway to the capacitor. The inductor provides the inertia in the system. When we have a coil of high self inductance and first close the circuit there is a delay before current passes through the circuit. This delay is equal in all respects to the time that the circuit will pass current even though the switch is open. This is pretty much what any system with inertia in play does.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on July 18, 2010, 02:16:23 PM

@Sparks,

This is what I mean by joule toss.

thank you for your metaphor.

@skywatcher,
It sounds like a good project.
Did you see MK1's beautiful coil he made on a cardboard tube?
It might be interesting for you to look at his project too.

enjoy,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: zhak on July 19, 2010, 01:58:29 PM

Everyone,
Here are my experiments with JT, I ask to see
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=232XTXVj4jE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ffb1MFMJjYw&feature=channel

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on July 19, 2010, 06:43:59 PM

Quote from: zhak on July 19, 2010, 01:58:29 PM
Everyone,
Here are my experiments with JT, I ask to see
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=232XTXVj4jE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ffb1MFMJjYw&feature=channel

Very nice Zhak, can you give us a little more into.....i.e. caore type and bulb type (volts/ma to light).

Seems to be a very simple and powerful BJTC.

Regards...Stew

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on July 25, 2010, 07:43:35 AM

:) Hello everyone, I've been off for a fair while, I now have a Velleman PPS10 scope, it works very well, except not sure why computer does'nt recognise the rs232 cable?
anyway I measured my (Joule thief LED power supply) at 1253 Vdc at 125 Khz frequency.
Can anyone help me with why the PC wont recognise the rs232 cable????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on July 25, 2010, 01:07:53 PM

@ freepow

May be you have done that, just to make sure.

From this page you can download the "user manual" and the "PC Software":

http://www.velleman.eu/distributor/support/downloads/?code=PPS10

Download and install the "PC software".

On page 61 of the "user manual" (may be you should also download the user manual) it is said how to connect the PPS10 to the PC.

During installation of the "PC Software" or after the installation (usually in the menu "settings") you can probably set the COM-Port (ususally COM1 oder COM2). COM1 oder COM2 is the socket on the PC where you connect the RS232 cable from the PPS10.

Feel free to send me a PM (personal message) in case that did not help. Unfortunatelly is does not make sense to install the software on my LapTop because it is a newer modell without COM-Ports (no more RS232 sockets on modern PCs, only USB). But I can try it on an older PC (which is not used any more, but still in my house) in case you can not solve the problem. Of course I do not have a PPS10, but I could look at the software how one specifies the communication parameters. But may be you find that yourself.

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 25, 2010, 02:50:02 PM

Conrad:

Excellent response. I would add that you can get rs232 to usb cables fairly cheaply. That might help with your laptop.

Bill

***EDIT*** Here is one that would work:

http://www.usbgear.com/item_288.html (http://www.usbgear.com/item_288.html)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on July 25, 2010, 07:02:39 PM

@all

My new invention Jt , uses the audio speaker idea ...

I hope you like it , we may have to also put magnets on the outside of the coil ...

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: zhak on July 26, 2010, 01:44:57 PM

Small my experience
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIUHpsYNntg

Title: JT/bedini
Post by: guruji on August 01, 2010, 03:03:04 PM

Hi guys today I hooked a small solar panel to a JT/bedini circuit feeding a capacitor with a scr. With my amazement it charged better than my 13w solar panel. Want to share.
Thanks.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on August 01, 2010, 11:54:15 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on July 25, 2010, 07:02:39 PM
@all

My new invention Jt , uses the audio speaker idea ...

I hope you like it , we may have to also put magnets on the outside of the coil ...

Mark

I've always thought that pulsing at the Bloch wall would create a greater EMF.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on August 03, 2010, 01:50:56 AM

@jadaro

Nice to hear from you !

Yes well my idea was if the coils vibrate to the jt freq the voltage and current should be more power full since most of the power would come from the magnet ...

I can't wait to hear form your bismuth experiment .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 03, 2010, 02:43:05 PM

Hi everybody,
I had a small piece of a long sought after effect today.
This is just the beginning, but I want to share right away, cuz it is sooo cool.

First the ingredients list:
1- I bought a string of 20 filament christmas bulbs at the season-end on the urgings of xee2.
These are 5-6v each, I guess because there are 20 bulbs on a 110v string.
So I used one of these.

2- The other is a jtc with a 2 1/2 inch toroid.
This has a rheostat at the pos of the battery, but when it is fully open
the secondary puts out 1110v at 5khz.

3- I have been using a rectifier to charge a 12v battery from this secondary, so this is on the secondary too.

Next... ta da...
I had a don smith/tesla idea to use:
4- a wall wart to transform down and smooth out the secondary volts and see if it would be smooth dc I could use in something. Don smith claims he can do this and run a heater, so, maybe I can do the same with a jtc??
So, from the thrift store I got a 120v > 9v which seems to make 12v for some reason.

I clipped the secondary wires to the plug prongs of the wall wart, and it reduced the volts to 6---to---12vdc
(This wall wart might be fried, of course.)
So, it flashed the filament light so bright I thought it had blown it.
I touched the wires again and it flashed again, but less bright.

So, there is a build up.
It is not smooth.

Maybe I can add another light for more resistance, or a resistor, or maybe I can put a memory cap across the leads and get a steady light.
I will see and let you know.

yeay! :D ,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: mscoffman on August 03, 2010, 03:25:11 PM

Quote from: jeanna on August 03, 2010, 02:43:05 PM
Hi everybody,

...
I had a don smith/tesla idea to use:
4- a wall wart to transform down and smooth out the secondary volts and see if it
would be smooth dc I could use in something. Don smith claims he can do this and
run a heater, so, maybe I can do the same with a jtc??
So, from the thrift store I got a 120v > 9v which seems to make 12v for some
reason.
...

jeanna

Most wall wart supplies are not regulated...(some are, but it should say that
on the label). So they are rated to produce 9Volts at full load, therefore unloaded
and unregulated will produce like 12Vdc from the peak to peak voltage and pull
down to the 9Vdc when loaded. It's not a very good system, but inexpensive.

The transformers are big 60Hz inductors so the 1KV Jt fast pulses don't get
get through it so well. 1KV could be outside the range of the coil wire insulation
so one wouldn't want to design that wall wart supply into a product.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 03, 2010, 03:51:36 PM

Thanks Mark,

This is a proof of concept, really.
People have accused don smith of lying, and Don has seemed to reply, "well, just try it."
so, when this idea came through yesterday, I had to "just try it"

I have a question about your statement:
If the insulation of the jtc can handle the 1kv, then why would the insulation in the device not be able to?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 03, 2010, 05:11:39 PM

Jeanna:

Good question. I await the answer. Possibly it is the frequency that is mucking things up? The wall warts are, as I know you know, designed for 60 hz or thereabouts. We all know from our previous experiments that frequency does some weird stuff.

Very nice experiment to do. You always come up with the most interesting stuff. Hey, post a video of it and maybe Lidmotor will replicate it and explain it to us? Mark may be on the right track here. I just have no idea.

So much to learn, so little time.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief up then down jtc
Post by: jeanna on August 03, 2010, 09:34:19 PM

Hey Bill. It's good to hear from you!

I am still getting a slow flash.
I have been fiddling with different things and my guess is the best approach will be to have a resistor which is parallel to a cap together in series with one wire of the little bulb.
Probably this is all I will do. I do not see anything even efficient here, just interesting that I was finally able to get a filament to light.
Remember xee2 using one of these bulbs and getting a flash?
He was using koolers double whammy scr circuit, I think.

I am able to get a jtc to light from this secondary after it goes through the wall wart. It is one that has 2 secondaries, one white, one red and a memory cap across the leads.
It is about as bright as when the plant battery puts 3 or 4 mA into it.
Considering this is a jtc that will easily light 3 LoA bulbs of 20 leds each and light them at full brightness, this is a silly even disappointing exercise.

I think I will change the basic jtc from this 'hot rod' to a regular one and see what happens.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: midknightoysters on August 06, 2010, 02:42:42 AM

HI I THINK EVERY ONE SHOULD SEE THIS VID
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtSER6rFOxI

Title: Re: Jule Thief up then down jtc
Post by: WilbyInebriated on August 07, 2010, 02:41:42 AM

Quote from: jeanna on August 03, 2010, 09:34:19 PM
Hey Bill. It's good to hear from you!

I am still getting a slow flash.
I have been fiddling with different things and my guess is the best approach will be to have a resistor which is parallel to a cap together in series with one wire of the little bulb.
Probably this is all I will do. I do not see anything even efficient here, just interesting that I was finally able to get a filament to light.
Remember xee2 using one of these bulbs and getting a flash?
He was using koolers double whammy scr circuit, I think.

I am able to get a jtc to light from this secondary after it goes through the wall wart. It is one that has 2 secondaries, one white, one red and a memory cap across the leads.
It is about as bright as when the plant battery puts 3 or 4 mA into it.
Considering this is a jtc that will easily light 3 LoA bulbs of 20 leds each and light them at full brightness, this is a silly even disappointing exercise.

I think I will change the basic jtc from this 'hot rod' to a regular one and see what happens.

thank you,

jeanna

hi jeanna, below is a link where i showed a filament bulb being lit with one wire via high voltage. the bulb was a burnt out one, not all bulbs will work. i didn't need the tongs either, i can hold it in my fingers.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg218520#msg218520
several people asked how i did it, you included if i recall. i refrained from answering directly, i was trying to get people thinking about it. funniest thing was, the only person who guessed it was IST!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 09, 2010, 07:52:53 PM

So wilby,
Are you just saying that although this does not always work, a blown filament bulb can make a light with pulsed HV by acting as a plasma bulb.
Is that what you are saying?

juju on the EF just got his going this way too.

the light forms inside the bulb because the cold spark is continuous from one broken piece of filament to the other.

OK?

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on August 09, 2010, 08:16:41 PM

Quote from: jeanna on August 09, 2010, 07:52:53 PM
So wilby,
Are you just saying that although this does not always work, a blown filament bulb can make a light with pulsed HV by acting as a plasma bulb.
Is that what you are saying?

juju on the EF just got his going this way too.

the light forms inside the bulb because the cold spark is continuous from one broken piece of filament to the other.

OK?

thank you,

jeanna

yes, not all burnt out bulbs will work. some do, some don't. there is a reason, i will leave that to the experimenter to work out.
sorta, the burnt bulb acts as an incandescent arc lamp when HV is passed through it. the remains of the filament on each end heat up due to the arc and begin to incandesce.

i don't know about 'cold spark', mine was rather warm...

hope this helps.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: cletushowell on August 09, 2010, 11:16:49 PM

so the answer is the point gap is the light so there is no points there is no open loop no lost voltage
I knew the incandescent had those spirals in the wire to create a frequency that cant be made by the earth battery without making the frequency of every bulb or majority of them we cant switch unless some one designs a circuit thats adjustable frequency to the bulbs thats why leds work there straight not spiral fillament not a string basically hope you get this. so the longer the wire between the eart battery the bigger it will gap the shorter the
smaller so the led is the shortest but there going to rape us on leds so we need a frequency converter or these broken plasma bulbs this is genuis.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: cletushowell on August 09, 2010, 11:20:51 PM

so tesla gaped the whole earth using lightning by determining the frequency of the bolts using his tesla coil thats how he created the 333 so with the grid the frequency and ability to store the energy you can magnify the whole earth to a giant cycling battery by sending the frequency around as it comes out the other side keeping it from returning to the stars dam he had a lot of power but now I have it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on August 10, 2010, 08:53:05 AM

@all

Does anyone know where Koolers VTA Sweet schematic is? I can't seem to find it!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on August 10, 2010, 09:20:48 AM

Do you mean this one?

Jesus

There is another one at:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.9720

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on August 10, 2010, 09:52:03 AM

No it actually looked similar to the Floyd design! Hummmm...maybe he posted it in MK1's topic! I will check there!

P.S. Where is kooler anyways...I haven't seen him in a while.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on August 10, 2010, 10:00:39 AM

No luck in the last 5 pages or so!

???

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on August 10, 2010, 10:07:10 AM

Make a forum search for his name and all his posts will show up.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on August 10, 2010, 10:40:25 AM

Found it, thanks Jesus ;D

pg 5 on the SM TPU what we know so far thread if anyone is interested.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on August 10, 2010, 11:32:36 AM

@Jeanna

Can you tell me what your jeanna coil consisted of?

winding style
turns
output in AC and or DC

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 10, 2010, 05:04:19 PM

@wilby,
Thanks for that answer!

@stprue,
All my jtc's since almost the beginning have been made to use the jtc as the pulse generator.
I rarely ever use the C-E junction of the transistor.
I wound a 'secondary' on the same toroid that 'free-loads' off the magnetic pulses that happen with the normal operation of the jtc.

But to say one winding style is not possible, because it was the winding style I was playing with mostly.
Later it became clear that I needed to have the highest permeability toroid for it to work well.

I did the plain solenoid that xee2 suggested, and that worked very well. It was very unidirectional, meaning the pulses all went up.
But, it lit a cfl, which was the goal at the time.
I made some with the coil going back and forth as MK1 suggested. These gave a generally higher frequency. Sometimes these would choke the coil, but when they were working well, they were awesome.
These made the pulses go both ways, up and down in various ways.

In the end I modified the MK1 style to have a more UN-even distribution of winds (still 4 ways as his were,) and it gave me the best results.
I thought it was called AC when I began, but later, I learned that it was really pulsed DC all along.
But, that is what Tesla was experimenting with the whole time after he patented the AC generator. He felt it worked better.
(We still have not figured out all of what HE knew 110 years ago. Isn't that amazing?)

I hope this helps.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: cletushowell on August 10, 2010, 07:35:23 PM

Look ac is dc the sooner you figure that out the sooner you
understand photon
the measurement of ac and dc is a illusion of a open loop
When there both running there is no difference
the ground is the frame eliminate the open loops in either you
see there the exact same power both photon energies
infact you wont understand but ill say it anyways
theres no negative power at all
the only way you can find a negative power is to break the loop
so it only exist when the system is in
the state of between magnets or
open battery measuring photon with a volt metter is like sticking it to a stove burner or a magnet and saying how much power do we have it doesnt work
if you want me to continue i will but most shut me out in two sentences
to complicated I gues. They did a good job of covering up free energy
for 100 years its not we dont have it
they intentionaly stop it

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stevenchiverton on August 11, 2010, 03:48:00 AM

:) heres one of some i made, but the best joule thief was the easy to make battery charger one which can allso recharge those tiny watch batteries and desulphate dead slr batterys and allso charge a photo flash capacitor to ill add that soon

***Photo size edited by Moderator***

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on August 11, 2010, 08:59:50 AM

@Jeanna

Thank you for your response. I am in the process of winding my biggo 3.5" tor toriod with 30 guage mag wire. I'm not sure if this will over saturate this ferrite but in the end it should have somewhere around 450-500 turns.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: cletushowell on August 11, 2010, 12:21:56 PM

Does this make any sense
spiral square wave spiral square
wave the spiral goes thru the square
so i think what God was telling me now i dont know anything
about frequency waves but essentialy the straight
poles are the square and the spiral is the
the power between so like moray had a antenna to air
a stright pole then his granite cells then a straight pole to water
I think the juel theif the batteries are just
straight polorised rods well anyways
hope someone smarter then me gets it
that circuit was cool you had tge wire color
right red blue red blue you probly didnt know you
created a magnetic plasma of indigo

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 11, 2010, 01:21:29 PM

Welcome stevenchi...
I look forward to the charging jtc.
Your board is very nicely laid out and labeled.
Excellent.

Just a note about pic size:
Please run your pix through a graphics program like gimp (free) to modify the image size to be under 600 pixels wide.
Pirate doesn't have a lot of time these days and he must turn off the thread, download and change then exchange his modified pic for yours, so it will help everybody if you do it yourself.

Quote from: stprue on August 11, 2010, 08:59:50 AM
@Jeanna

Thank you for your response. I am in the process of winding my biggo 3.5" tor toriod with 30 guage mag wire. I'm not sure if this will over saturate this ferrite but in the end it should have somewhere around 450-500 turns.

that biggo is very high permeability. I am sure you will saturate it easily.
2T,6T,330T is what I used.
Please let us know!
Just be very careful with that 30 gauge stuff.
When you get the super high voltages that you will get, you are likely to also get a break in the insulation.
(I have kept the max to 28 gauge for that reason.)
I put on 330 turns and I got over 1800v. It was probably over 2000 volts. I didn't want to break my scope to find out!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on August 11, 2010, 01:27:48 PM

Yes the insulation can also scrape off very easily also so it is a risky coil to build. If it holds up it should be a fun toy. I will let you know what it is done.

Not sure how I want to measure the voltage if I am sucessful...probably resistors!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 11, 2010, 05:10:54 PM

;D ;D
Measure voltage?
That's easy, light a cfl, then light 3 LoA 20led bulbs! then you can say it has lots.
;D ,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stevenchiverton on August 12, 2010, 01:49:40 AM

Quote from: jeanna on August 11, 2010, 01:21:29 PM
Welcome stevenchi...
I look forward to the charging jtc.
Your board is very nicely laid out and labeled.
Excellent.

Just a note about pic size:
Please run your pix through a graphics program like gimp (free) to modify the image size to be under 600 pixels wide. thankyou i dont have these programs and i dont really know how to resizer but ill try cutting them down useing something in pc here ive done it so i hope this is ok here the radiant battery charger jioule thief ill add circuit when i find it

Pirate doesn't have a lot of time these days and he must turn off the thread, download and change then exchange his modified pic for yours, so it will help everybody if you do it yourself.

that biggo is very high permeability. I am sure you will saturate it easily.
2T,6T,330T is what I used.
Please let us know!
Just be very careful with that 30 gauge stuff.
When you get the super high voltages that you will get, you are likely to also get a break in the insulation.
(I have kept the max to 28 gauge for that reason.)
I put on 330 turns and I got over 1800v. It was probably over 2000 volts. I didn't want to break my scope to find out!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stevenchiverton on August 12, 2010, 01:57:11 AM

:)thats a blob of blue tac in the middel of the hand wound toriodal to keep the wires in place , heres the schematic anyone likes a high resolution nice top quality pics email me and ill email yous them this i made 2 of these and the second one has more than a 90 turn toriodal as it dosent seem to matter it works even better i think

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on August 12, 2010, 10:06:53 PM

Quote from: stprue on August 10, 2010, 09:52:03 AM
No it actually looked similar to the Floyd design! Hummmm...maybe he posted it in MK1's topic! I will check there!

P.S. Where is kooler anyways...I haven't seen him in a while.

stprue
i have a very much upgraded version of the sweet vta.. my version of it.. lol
it has no tanks and two bifiliar aircoils between the transformers.. once running they start to feed each other.. ..
and you tap the output the same way floyd did.
pm me if you want a diagram..
i busted up my back a couple of months back so i am not able to go down the stairs to the foxhole or i would do a video or pictures
maybe soon..

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 12, 2010, 11:20:49 PM

Hey Robbie,

I am sorry to hear about your back.

Please give us all the diagram of one coil feeding the other!
/or/ a link to the thread if you started one.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on August 13, 2010, 11:42:56 AM

Quote from: kooler on August 12, 2010, 10:06:53 PM
stprue
i have a very much upgraded version of the sweet vta.. my version of it.. lol
it has no tanks and two bifiliar aircoils between the transformers.. once running they start to feed each other.. ..
and you tap the output the same way floyd did.
pm me if you want a diagram..
i busted up my back a couple of months back so i am not able to go down the stairs to the foxhole or i would do a video or pictures
maybe soon..

robbie

Sorry to hear about your back....that sucks big time! I will PM you!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on August 13, 2010, 11:44:50 PM

The incomplete information of the aweet vta is here:
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/vta.htm

Maybe somebody has the missing vta3.zip.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 15, 2010, 04:15:38 AM

@ All:

For a long time, everyone wanted me to do longevity experiments and tests on my JT circuits. Well, my 82 year old mother's JT night light is still going strong on a "dead" AA battery now for 40 days burning about 10 hours per day. (Night actually)

It uses the ferrite bead 1" OD X 2" long, 2N3904 transistor, 1K resistor, and a super bright 10mm white led. I should have measured the volts in the dead battery before I started but I did not. It came from my dead AA bag that has all of the batteries my electronic devices say are dead. So, just guessing, probably about 1.1 volts or so.

So, 400 hours and counting. (or thereabouts)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on August 15, 2010, 08:15:09 AM

Hello BILL, from freepow, About your 400 hour plus night light, How many turns on your ferrite bead, also what is the current draw ?
Is the LED fairly bright ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: mrbr00k5 on August 15, 2010, 08:25:57 PM

Hi everyone, I mostly hang out in the crystal cell thread, but I had a question about the joule thief. Based on the considerable amount of variations and experiments that have been done, in this thread alone. Could someone please post a schematic, of what they consider, the best joule thief is so far. Which one is the longest lasting, and most efficient? I hope this request doesn't sound lazy, but surely you can understand that a 1000 page topic is a little intimidating! ;D I've built the battery switching joule thief charger that Lidmotor and Kubikop showed on youtube, which is really cool, but I know I'm way behind in joule thief design. I started tinkering with joule thieves about a year ago, and then got involved in researching crystal cells, so I missed a lot of progress I'm sure. So what's the most long-lasting, amperage squeezing, design you guys have come up with!? ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 16, 2010, 03:00:54 PM

Hi Mrbro0k5.

I think the reason those 1000+ pages are so interesting is that there were many of us sharing many different design ideas with each other and inspiring each other as we did.
So, there is no substitute for reading it all.

I would say that the first 105 pages are essential.

To make it easier I will say a little about my angle of experiment...

My designs have all been to use the jtc as a pulse generator.
I do not use the C-E of the transistor to make the light unless I am dealing with very low voltage or amperage.
Instead, I use the toroid which is pulsing a magnetic field, because it is part of the jtc, to wind a secondary. It is from this secondary that I produce whatever it is that I produce.

If you want to see my experiments, you might read the thread I started called "AC from joule thief".
I was confused about "my" circuit in the beginning but I was clear about the question I was trying to answer and the direction I was heading.

I will let any others who want to say what they want about their own circuit experiments.

Have fun. This is a really great circuit.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on August 16, 2010, 05:21:54 PM

Quote from: mrbr00k5 on August 15, 2010, 08:25:57 PM
Hi everyone, I mostly hang out in the crystal cell thread, but I had a question about the joule thief. Based on the considerable amount of variations and experiments that have been done, in this thread alone. Could someone please post a schematic, of what they consider, the best joule thief is so far. Which one is the longest lasting, and most efficient? I hope this request doesn't sound lazy, but surely you can understand that a 1000 page topic is a little intimidating! ;D I've built the battery switching joule thief charger that Lidmotor and Kubikop showed on youtube, which is really cool, but I know I'm way behind in joule thief design. I started tinkering with joule thieves about a year ago, and then got involved in researching crystal cells, so I missed a lot of progress I'm sure. So what's the most long-lasting, amperage squeezing, design you guys have come up with!? ;D

mrbr00k

What are you thinking of doing with a JT?
A JT that is most efficient for one thing might be totally ineffective for some other thing.........there is no one best JT...... this is thread is a string of experiments with people finding the best they can do for MANY different applications.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: mrbr00k5 on August 16, 2010, 06:05:25 PM

@All

Thanks for responding everyone. I guess I should have been more specific, so I'll rephrase the question. :D I basically just want it to run an L.E.D. or two. What I would like is a basic platform to build on. Besides the most basic joule thief, you know, the one with the 1K resistor to the base of the transistor, which you find all over the internet. I've seen some youtube videos where the person is going on about how simple it is to improve the efficiency of a joule thief, by just adding one diode or capacitor or etc. But they are usually moving the camera around so much I'm about to get seasick while watching the video, and I have no idea where the part they mention goes, since they seem to be filming inside the bat-cave, and not a well lit room, with clear schematics to go with their dialogue. But anyway, what is a relatively simple, improved version. In other words, a good all around design, with reduced current consumption, as compared to the most basic joule thief. I've also built the high efficiency joule thief from watson's e-blog, as seen here:

http://watsonseblog.blogspot.com/2009/01/joule-thief-high-efficiency-isthe-topic.html

It's really good, but I'm curious if you guys would recommend any changes. So anyway, (I tend to ramble...) Bottom line, a good balanced design, that's not too complex, but mostly with the idea of running an L.E.D.

Thanks in advance for any info you can offer. :)

I'll get started on reading the WHOLE topic meanwhile, HONEST! ;D I just wish I had more free time... :P

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 16, 2010, 08:36:35 PM

Please take a look at the joule thief 101 thread.
It was designed for beginning jt'ers
here
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8341.0 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8341.0)

At least follow my posts for a concise list of suggestions, although others added a lot more than I did.
Because you said you had made a few, I thought you knew a bit more.... no problem.
Just do that.
I usually suggest a plain one but after that I suggest one using 16 turns on the secondary and 2-4 leds running off that.
but for only a few more turns and no additional mA draw you can add another 4 leds easily.
It is the lowest amp-cost jtc around.
But why should I repeat it again here?

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on August 17, 2010, 10:49:23 AM

Quote from: crowclaw on June 03, 2010, 02:15:53 AM
Hi All,
I have done quite a lot of experimenting over the last few months with radiant charging using the back EMF from various circuits including JT's. As Gary mentioned you do have to keep cycling the cells (charge/discharge) over many times. Both pulse frequency and mark/space ratio plays a crucial part in how successful this technique is. You are correct that a dead cell can be brought back to life and show a potential voltage, but no real useful current. You need to study the works of John Bedini and others to get a grasp of using these charge methods successfully. I have achieved mixed results with both nicad and lead acid cells... the methods tend to be rather critical, and I'm still working on these projects.

altho i love the idea of radiant energy as it would be a source of free energy and has been "discovered" i believe there is a more scientific and chemistry based answer for these batteries. if anyone has researched there are "desulfators" on the market, its a device that sends a high voltage charge with no amps that if it was constant would fry the battery but since its pulsed wth no amps it acts to restore the batteries origional chemistry by removing hard deposits off of the poles of the batteries. although this is designed for lead acid batteries it also seems to restore other batteries as well.

as deposits are made on the poles from batteries sitting around with little to no charge they cannot be fully recharged as part of the chemicals needed to restore the electrolyte is hard and crusty on a pole. if we knock it loose, its now available to restore a charge. a high frequency high voltage pulse with no amps makes the poles or plates "sing" and vibrate. this causes everything to be shaken loose and mix again.

if you wanted to modify the joule thief for charging you would need one high voltage version for "reconditioning" the battery and another for amps as said. however just to verify some other statements made, using the "reconditioning" several times and even on a weekly basis is good for batteries as it will keep them in peak performing capacity.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on August 17, 2010, 11:14:54 AM

pardon my lack of memory but didnt this forum try their hand at making their own ferrite torroids a while back? i am interested in trying to make a ferrite disk for magnetic experiments. if anyone recalls/knows about this subject would you mind PM'ing me or replying to this thread if bill doesnt mind?

thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on August 17, 2010, 08:53:41 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on August 17, 2010, 11:14:54 AM
pardon my lack of memory but didnt this forum try their hand at making their own ferrite torroids a while back? i am interested in trying to make a ferrite disk for magnetic experiments. if anyone recalls/knows about this subject would you mind PM'ing me or replying to this thread if bill doesnt mind?

thanks

Artic_Knight

There has been talk a few times about making some toroids by hand......I do not remember anyone actually getting it done....

It is on my list though.

I have the Fe3O4 ( black iron oxide ) and epoxy to use as a binder.

I just need to make a mold.

I do not expect to get great results........after all it will be a powdered iron toroid ...... not ferrite.
My main reason for getting the iron oxide was for other projects.

I also have some bismuth on the way for other projects.......but a bismuth toroid sounds interesting.......and a bismuth toroid laced with iron oxide may be worth a try too.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on August 18, 2010, 09:06:10 AM

There is one guy that makes toroids with wooden molds on youtube.
Maybe this will help.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZF1FYaEdqc

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on August 18, 2010, 12:24:46 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on August 18, 2010, 09:06:10 AM
There is one guy that makes toroids with wooden molds on youtube.
Maybe this will help.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZF1FYaEdqc

Jesus

Jesus

Thanks.......I have seen that.

I already have decided on how to make a mold.
I posted it a while back....... reply 11 on the bismuth JT thread.

Silicone rubber is to soft for a high precision mold.....but I see no reason that a toroid needs high precision.

I silicone rubber mold can be used for many materials.......including bismuth and epoxy

a layer of fiberglass cloth can be used in the bottom of the mold to increase its durability .

The mold would be flexed to release the finished toroid .... the mold should be good for hundreds of toroids.

I mostly just have to find the time to get it done..........I have all the stuff

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on August 18, 2010, 02:15:57 PM

Quote from: mrbr00k5 on August 16, 2010, 06:05:25 PM
Bottom line, a good balanced design, that's not too complex, but mostly with the idea of running an L.E.D.

Hello mrbr00k5 !

Attached please see a Joule Thief circuit that works very well for me. It was posted by a person calling himself "Groundloop". I added a few comments and hints based on my experiments.

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on August 18, 2010, 06:48:30 PM

bill or anyone

ive seen a few of you using the led christmas lights and lighting them from your JT and flash circuits, do you know what the arrangement of the leds are? are they in series or parallel? and did they need a special circuit or transformer for normal (pre JT) use?

im looking at making some custom under cabinet lighting :) i will post pics when i get it done and note my setup.

thanks!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 18, 2010, 09:12:49 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on August 18, 2010, 06:48:30 PM
bill or anyone

ive seen a few of you using the led christmas lights and lighting them from your JT and flash circuits, do you know what the arrangement of the leds are? are they in series or parallel? and did they need a special circuit or transformer for normal (pre JT) use?

im looking at making some custom under cabinet lighting :) i will post pics when i get it done and note my setup.

thanks!

Hi Artic Knight,
These led christmas lights are arranged in series. Normally they are sold as 35 or 70 leds in a string. There is also a hefty resistor or 2 because of the high led-killing surges common to the grid power.

This resistor might be embedded inside the plastic at the base of each end led. You will see there are multiple strings of 35 leds going one or the other direction.
Remove the end bulbs of each 35 led segment. (this bulb will have a third wire... just cut off the whole led and all 3 wires. It will work fine with 33 leds.

[So, you should end up with a string of 33 leds on 1 wire.]

Generally what I suggest and I have done is to take a useful number of leds off the string and make the connection yourself. There will be plenty of green matching wire ( ;D ) to make your loop the right color if you need it.
This is easily done. The hardest part is untwisting all the wire and should take about 10 minutes.

AND, it looks good too.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 18, 2010, 11:28:45 PM

Artic Knight:

I agree with Jeanna with one exception...the light strings I use all have 100 leds on them and no transformer or resistors as far as I can tell. Maybe, as Jeanna has said, there might be a resistor buried in the plastic plug end but, the only thing I see is each string of 100 is fused and that is buried in the male plug end. I am pretty sure my lights are in series also but, hard to tell for sure as they are the Icicle lights and have like 20 leds and then a branch of maybe 15 that hang out from the main string every few feet or so.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on August 19, 2010, 10:56:10 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on August 18, 2010, 11:28:45 PM
Artic Knight:

I agree with Jeanna with one exception...the light strings I use all have 100 leds on them and no transformer or resistors as far as I can tell. Maybe, as Jeanna has said, there might be a resistor buried in the plastic plug end but, the only thing I see is each string of 100 is fused and that is buried in the male plug end. I am pretty sure my lights are in series also but, hard to tell for sure as they are the Icicle lights and have like 20 leds and then a branch of maybe 15 that hang out from the main string every few feet or so.

Bill

I do more like Bill does
I have a few strings of 100 LED christmas lights.....I just clip alligator clips to the prongs of the plug

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on August 20, 2010, 04:55:10 PM

I just got back from Walmart........it looks like lights of america has been busy.
They had several lights there that are not yet on the lights of america website.
They had several types of the smaller bulbs with a central pillar about half inch thick and maybe an inch and 1/4 tall.
The pillar has 6 surface mount LEDs on each edge.and 3 on the top.
The one I bought was rated at 2W 100 lumens.

They also had a new higher power floodlight . it was rated at 9 W
It had 7 1/4 inch LEDs in it...... the price was $14 something........about the same as my 90 LED arrays cosr......
Now I kind of wish I had got one of the new floodlights
I am sure a candy cane coil I have been playing with would light it.
This coil is big........ it has about 70 5 for $1 toroids ....... I connected several smaller candy cane coils together.
I am not sure how much voltage it has......
my meter only goes up to 600V ............
it lights a 25W CFL to near full brightness ( using 12V ) It also easily lights up 3 strings of 100 LED christmas tree lights.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on August 20, 2010, 09:46:24 PM

thanks bill and jenna,

now to plan a design. i either want to get a low profile metal U bracket and place each led in it myself (thats a lotta drilling!) or maybe i will get some puck lights. either way i dont want to rewire the kitchen and i dont want a power cable running from one set of cabinets to the other so why not apply a good efficient joule? :)

i have some 2400mah rechargeables around and im sure AA capacities have grown beyond that by now. my calculations for a 2400mah using your most efficient recent circuit gives a run time of about 60-70 hours assuming the batteries are calculated right and theres no special free energy thing going on ;)

chances are i may go with the puck lights just because they seem hassle free i think. but the led string lights could be really neat for porch lighting.... choices choices.

so what are you guys working on these days? have a few crazy ideas for pushing the joule even more efficient or just trying to light more lights?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 20, 2010, 10:23:03 PM

@Artic Knight,
I just want to share a design idea that has worked nicely for me.

In the craft dept of the wall mart there are placks. These are unfinished hardwood boards in 3 sizes around 6" x 8".
If you make your joule thief circuit and stick it onto one of these placks you have a nice looking and moveable device that can light various batches of leds depending on where you want the lights to be on.

A youtuber named the daftman showed many folks about using brass nails to mount a good looking circuit on a small board when he first made a bedini ssg circuit.
I recommend having a look.

Enjoy,

jeanna

Oh, lately I have been seeing what can be done with almost no current. It is not as interesting, but could come in handy. ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on August 21, 2010, 01:14:03 AM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on August 20, 2010, 09:46:24 PM

so what are you guys working on these days? have a few crazy ideas for pushing the joule even more efficient or just trying to light more lights?

Artic_Knight

really neither.
I have never really been into the efficiency of the JT
I am more into the impuses it makes........and what can be done with them.
Now that I have a high voltage candy cane coil I can experment with wireless transmition.
I project that I have wanted to do for a while is a wireless charger for my cell phone.
I plan to use something like an AV plug with a piece of copper about the size of the battery as antenna. I need to find some very small diodes......then I will be ready
I plan to put the wireless charger in one of those disposable food containers........I will attach another larger copper sheet to the inside of the top of the container......... it will be hooked to the secondary .......it will be pulsed with over 400V
Each sheet of copper will act as one plate of a capacitor ,
I do not want to fry my battery ......so I will adjust the charger to take around 4 hours to charge the battery.......
If all goes well....once it is done I will just toss my cell phone onto the top of the container...and it will charge up.

That is just one little project........I got about a dozen others..... today I spent most of my free time working on molds for black iron or bismuth cores.......they now need a few days to dry.

I think tomorrow I am going to try to make some progress with my version of a bedini motor.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on August 30, 2010, 01:10:46 AM

:) :) :) Hello Anybody !!! I have charged up a 400v CAP to around 80-90v with a Biff wound toroid,
Can I charge this cap to 400v with a secondary coil on joulethief, if so, where do I connect CAP to charge it??? cause I kind of tried and does'nt work ???

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on August 30, 2010, 06:00:03 AM

http://jnaudin.free.fr/2SGen/indexen.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8G3MrxueODM&feature=channel

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 30, 2010, 01:28:36 PM

Quote from: freepow on August 30, 2010, 01:10:46 AM
:) :) :) Hello Anybody !!! I have charged up a 400v CAP to around 80-90v with a Biff wound toroid,
Can I charge this cap to 400v with a secondary coil on joulethief, if so, where do I connect CAP to charge it??? cause I kind of tried and does'nt work ???

Hi everybody,
I answered a pm from freepow on this same question.
I figure if freepow wanted the answer, others might as well, so here was part of my answer:

You need an enhanced bridge to collect lots of HV from the secondary.
Make or use a full bridge and connect it to the secondary wires then add another diode to each output in the direction of the polarity to be found there, and watch out!

This is how MK1 taught me to determine how high the HV was on my secondary.

(I am using this enhanced bridge to spike-charge a 12v battery. I cannot get it to charge but it is a great reconditioner for the 12v.)

@freepow,
just because you have a 400v capacitor does not mean you will be able to put 400v into it.
If your joule thief output is only 75v, then that is what you will be able to collect in the cap.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on August 30, 2010, 02:23:24 PM

Something like this:

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on August 31, 2010, 08:23:39 AM

Thanks both of you's for your help, I tried it and it works :)

Is it possible to charge up a HV Cap 400v as fast as a Disposable camera does by only using a Joulethief ???

I tried a small secondary which measured about 100v, and charged a 400v 180uF cap and watched the DMM reading while charging, and it only showed the Cap starting at 40+ volts and going up slowly ???

Can I charge it up quick like a Disp-camera ????
What voltage will I need coming out of secondary ??

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on August 31, 2010, 12:55:36 PM

There was a circuit on one of the threads in this forum that to charge a cap to high voltage striking the wire through a permanent magnet was needed. It charged the capacitor fast.

I dont remember which thread it was.

But that is a start.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on August 31, 2010, 01:02:00 PM

I think that was IST's NEO Zap stuff.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on August 31, 2010, 02:46:15 PM

Quote from: jeanna on August 20, 2010, 10:23:03 PM
@Artic Knight,
I just want to share a design idea that has worked nicely for me.

In the craft dept of the wall mart there are placks. These are unfinished hardwood boards in 3 sizes around 6" x 8".
If you make your joule thief circuit and stick it onto one of these placks you have a nice looking and moveable device that can light various batches of leds depending on where you want the lights to be on.

A youtuber named the daftman showed many folks about using brass nails to mount a good looking circuit on a small board when he first made a bedini ssg circuit.
I recommend having a look.

Enjoy,

jeanna

Oh, lately I have been seeing what can be done with almost no current. It is not as interesting, but could come in handy. ;)

perhaps more efficient wasnt the best word, i am looking at doing what you are in respect that i want to do as much with as little as possible. ive been doing some magnetic research lately trying to figure it out and now i want to try and put it to the test and see if i can get a joule thief to be self sustaining.

i saw a model of one that supposedly went down to 1 mah? although i do like the design of putting the coils after the transistor to create a more "break current" situation. tesla did that with his "exploding wires" well not with a transistor but he would cut off the current as obruptly as possible. i think you may have even mentioned that project of his.

i would imagine if one could reduce the draw of the setup far enough they could power a battery charger wirelesly with no need for a electrical transmitter. i doubt it would be a fast charger though but perhaps with the right circuit it could do some work. maybe a few led's.

lots of tesla and magnetics research and im not sure i answered anything really. guess time will tell. good to see you guys still kickin around here even if the group doesnt seem to be truckin it along as fast as it used to.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on August 31, 2010, 03:55:24 PM

@jesus,
Thanks for that drawing.
It is exactly what I was trying to say.

Quote from: freepow on August 31, 2010, 08:23:39 AM
Thanks both of you's for your help, I tried it and it works :)

Is it possible to charge up a HV Cap 400v as fast as a Disposable camera does by only using a Joulethief ???

On the kapandanze thread, someone just posted a really nice link to the camera circuits.
Probably this is not new, but I understand it better.

Here is the whole page:
http://talkingelectronics.com/projects/XenonFlasher/XenonFlasher.html (http://talkingelectronics.com/projects/XenonFlasher/XenonFlasher.html)

and I made a screenshot of the part of that page that is what they called a pump.
I will post it below.

@ A-K
I think I understand, now. Thanks for the explanation.

I started a thread on recharging batteries from a joule thief circuit, and some people shared their results.
I was able to recondition any battery using this secondary with enhanced bridge as jesus' drawing shows.

I also want to add that while the meter will only see a small amount of amps draw, at least half of that draw went missing in many of my jt circuits. I thought there was a problem, because on a 2500maH battery if the drain was 250ma the battery should have lasted 10 hours but was only lasting 5 1/3 hours.
Then when I used the copper-magnesium galvanic battery which has restricted rate but good strong voltage the truth really came out.

So, I am delighted to see more folks working with the magnetic component. It is the magnetic component in the toroid that allows the secondary to freeload so much, and I also want more.

So, go for it!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on August 31, 2010, 04:10:27 PM

Thank you lady @jeanna

@stprue
I think that the thread came out first and @ist did his replication version after he saw it.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on August 31, 2010, 06:35:37 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on August 31, 2010, 04:10:27 PM
Thank you lady @jeanna

@stprue
I think that the thread came out first and @ist did his replication version after he saw it.

Jesus

I see, sorry about that!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on August 31, 2010, 09:01:57 PM

Quote from: freepow on August 31, 2010, 08:23:39 AM
Thanks both of you's for your help, I tried it and it works :)

Is it possible to charge up a HV Cap 400v as fast as a Disposable camera does by only using a Joulethief ???

I tried a small secondary which measured about 100v, and charged a 400v 180uF cap and watched the DMM reading while charging, and it only showed the Cap starting at 40+ volts and going up slowly ???

Can I charge it up quick like a Disp-camera ????
What voltage will I need coming out of secondary ??

Freepow

The camera flash units are optimized for speed.

There are many ways you can speed up a JT.

Do you use a potentiometer for the base resistor on your transistor?
Lowering the resistance will allow the JT to use more power.........

Raising the voltage to the transistor is also a way to get more power through the circuit.

If you intend to get as much as possible out of a dying battery putting a capacitor across the battery will allow the battery to charge the cap at its maximum rate ...then the JT can take what it needs for each pulse from the cap.

Do you use a tank circuit? ( A cap across the base resistor or pot. )
A tank circuit can cause the circuit to go into resonance.......you will know that happens when you swing your pot through its range and you get a spike of power through the JT somewhere in the middle of its range.
I find that a .1uF cap works well in alot of my circuits.
On many of my circuits using a large cap seems to pump more power through the circuits....... often the output will blink when using low power and a high capacitance tank..... I have a 10uF cap that I often use for these circuits.

Using a better transistor is also a way to get more power through a circuit........ I use mostly TIP3055s ....... my first large transistor JT used a 2N3055 I went through quite a few of them.
A TIP3055 is a much tougher transistor......... yesterday I accidentally
connected 12V to a JT that I had just tested with a single AA battery ( no extra base resistor ) .......my pot glowed and smoked......but everything still works. From my experience a 2N3055 would have been fried in milliseconds connected like that.

Most of the JTs that I have made lately are what I call candy cane coils...... made of many 5 for $1 toroids.
I usually power them with 12V .......
I bring this up because another way to increase the power is to make the coil bigger.
My candy cane coils were intended to replace larger and hard to find toroids.
I do not think a Jeanna light can be made with a small toroid.
I strung a couple candy cane coils together to make one big coil with about 40 5 for 1 toroids. ........ powering it with 12 V it easily lights a 25W CFL very brightly.......it reads 250V with the CFL lit up.....over 600V unloaded.
I have still not been able to reach enough voltage with a candy cane coil to light a CFL with a single battery ..........but I have not tried more primary windings yet........ right now I have 4 laps through all the toroids......... that is my normal proimary.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on September 01, 2010, 05:07:49 AM

:) Hello Thanks everybody for help, has anyone come accross this.........

I have a joulethief with just a small toroid with secondary, and I have an enhanced bridge on the
output of the secondary, my DMM reading on this JT was 109.1 volts.

Then something I tried (which I was told to try) was putting a CAP in parallel with the Base Resistor and
then I retuned my 1K pot and I now got 110.4 volts.

Then I tried something more interesting by adding a 5 foot wire antenna to the Collecter of my
Transistor, and lo and behold I now get 114.1 volts.

I have not tried a long antenna as yet, but what does everyone think about more volts with an antenna
?????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 01, 2010, 09:58:54 AM

Quote from: freepow on September 01, 2010, 05:07:49 AM
:) Hello Thanks everybody for help, has anyone come accross this.........

I have a joulethief with just a small toroid with secondary, and I have an enhanced bridge on the
output of the secondary, my DMM reading on this JT was 109.1 volts.

Then something I tried (which I was told to try) was putting a CAP in parallel with the Base Resistor and
then I retuned my 1K pot and I now got 110.4 volts.

Then I tried something more interesting by adding a 5 foot wire antenna to the Collecter of my
Transistor, and lo and behold I now get 114.1 volts.

I have not tried a long antenna as yet, but what does everyone think about more volts with an antenna
??? ??

Very interesting discovery. I wonder where the extra juice is coming from? Radio/tv stations? Atmospheric energy? Both? This opens up some new experiments to try for all of us.

Excellent job!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on September 01, 2010, 01:23:15 PM

Interesting, and strange! this gives me lots of ideas ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on September 01, 2010, 02:20:37 PM

Quote from: freepow on September 01, 2010, 05:07:49 AM
:) Hello Thanks everybody for help, has anyone come accross this.........

I have a joulethief with just a small toroid with secondary, and I have an enhanced bridge on the
output of the secondary, my DMM reading on this JT was 109.1 volts.

Then something I tried (which I was told to try) was putting a CAP in parallel with the Base Resistor and
then I retuned my 1K pot and I now got 110.4 volts.

Then I tried something more interesting by adding a 5 foot wire antenna to the Collecter of my
Transistor, and lo and behold I now get 114.1 volts.

I have not tried a long antenna as yet, but what does everyone think about more volts with an antenna
?????

Freepow

Interesting experment
I don't remember anyone trying that before.
How is the wire arranged in relation to the JT?

can you try wrapping the wire around maybe 3 fingers to form a loose coil? then place the JT in the center of this coil......I am guessing it will act like a secondary and pick up a little more voltage.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on September 01, 2010, 09:05:22 PM

freepow
i played with this type setup 6-7 months ago..
putting a wire on the collector side is basic radio transmitting..
so it transmits from the collector to the secondary..
cause the secondary is at the same freq as the ant.
so it just pulls a little cemf from the ant. to the secondary..
below i post a pic of a setup i used.. at a certain freq it will double the volts on the secondary but will pull more from the battery also..
i may have the wires crossed on the setup but you need to run your ant. on the pos. of the output of your secondary..

later..
robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on September 01, 2010, 10:00:52 PM

Talking about radioes.
I finished my variable capacitor, only need to add the connection posts somehow (one of the parts moves).

If you want to make yours the link for the instructables pdf is here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=437

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on September 05, 2010, 07:05:33 AM

Hello... Can someone help me with a special switching method... look at the picture, sorry if its too big !

Basically to be able to charge each cap seperately then one switch which then connects all caps in series for one output , then to be able to switch back to originall again to be able to start the process again when I want too !

PHOTO SIZE EDITED
Note from Moderator:

Please post photos no larger than 800 x 600 as it messes up the entire page for everyone.

Thank you,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on September 05, 2010, 07:34:46 AM

Quote from: freepow on September 05, 2010, 07:05:33 AM
Hello... Can someone help me with a special switching method... look at the picture, sorry if its too big !

Basically to be able to charge each cap seperately then one switch which then connects all caps in series for one output , then to be able to switch back to originall again to be able to start the process again when I want too !

only way i could think of doing this easy is a motor and a wheel the wheel has contacts on and every time the wheel passes the connections it turns on then off

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on September 05, 2010, 08:53:52 AM

I have a confusion about the parallel and the series values of capacitors. With that in mind, this is my switching suggestion.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on September 05, 2010, 09:05:41 AM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on September 05, 2010, 08:53:52 AM
I have a confusion about the parallel and the series values of capacitors. With that in mind, this is my switching suggestion.

Jesus

i dont think he wonts them to fire all at once i think he wonts them to fire one after the other bit like a cars ignition system would

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on September 05, 2010, 09:18:53 AM

Quote from: dasimpson on September 05, 2010, 09:05:41 AM
i dont think he wonts them to fire all at once i think he wonts them to fire one after the other bit like a cars ignition system would

Even though all joule thieves are on at the same time, they are charging their respective capacitor isolated from the others.

When the negative pulse acrivates the two pnps, the three capacitors are joined.

If what he wants is +Cap-+Cap-+cap- . That is a task out of my reach now.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on September 05, 2010, 09:27:33 AM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on September 05, 2010, 09:18:53 AM
Even though all joule thieves are on at the same time, they are charging their respective capacitor isolated from the others.

When the negative pulse acrivates the two pnps, the three capacitors are joined.

If what he wants is +Cap-+Cap-+cap- . That is a task out of my reach now.

Jesus

from what i read he wonts to charge each cap up then turn off the jule thief connects the caps in parralel only way i see this working is timed switches and relays
so when the multi terminal relay turns the jt off the terminals allow the cap to connect to the next cap the only prob i see is by the time the jt turns on again then that would shut off the draw from the caps

parallel will make the caps 360uf 300 volts
series would make it 120uf but 900 volts
this ant counting the losses

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on September 05, 2010, 09:34:27 AM

Another idea.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on September 05, 2010, 09:40:31 AM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on September 05, 2010, 09:34:27 AM
Another idea.

Jesus

yeah that was the idea i was thinking he could then use a sinlge cap of high uf cos they be more jt fireing
and if not maybe another to discharge the caps into a larger cap
but on my experements hiting a large uf cap with a smaller uf cap did nit add to the carge allrady in the cap but just equlised it
meaning if small cap is 100uf and larg cap 1000uf hitting the large cap 10 times with the small cap when charged did not charge it to 1000uf but kept it at 100 or maybe i just measured wrong

but what i thoght a cap did is take volatge and change that into current (aka amapge) if this is so then steping up the size of the cap each time would end up with a higher amapge at each stroke like 100uf hits the 250 and then from 250 to 500 etc etc the voltage would stay the same but the ampage would go up

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 06, 2010, 03:40:33 PM

This is an interesting avenue of thought. Cool.

What if you had 3 different capacitances?

Then, wouldn't they fill in different amounts of time automatically?

If they discharge when they are filled to a 3/5 level, then they would be charging and recharging at different rates?
I have never been sure what to do to make them dump the charge when they are full, so I cannot actually make this.
And, I would love someone to explain this.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on September 06, 2010, 03:45:54 PM

Quote from: jeanna on September 06, 2010, 03:40:33 PM
This is an interesting avenue of thought. Cool.

What if you had 3 different capacitances?

Then, wouldn't they fill in different amounts of time automatically?

If they discharge when they are filled to a 3/5 level, then they would be charging and recharging at different rates?
I have never been sure what to do to make them dump the charge when they are full, so I cannot actually make this.
And, I would love someone to explain this.

jeanna

ppl have used scr's to dump the power when full but thats past my knowledge the way i would to it is by a timer and working out how long till they are full befor they dump the power
my next post i have some home lighting i have done

the night shots are not very good
but they light the stairs and back bedroom god enoth to see the back bedroom could do with another to jt curcits so they would be 4 to power the 12 leds this unit normaly tulk 4 aa batterys and lit the room as good as a 15 to 25 watt bulb and theys run of solar panels from old garden lights

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on September 06, 2010, 04:15:42 PM

@freepow

It depends on how simple or complicated you want to combine the three caps! if you want to manually switch them you could use three toggle switches and link the toggles together to give one operation (off_on)... yes,, you could use thyristors, but the caps must be discharged for them to turn off. Two double pole relays could also be used but you will need a voltage supply for them of course. There are other methods already shown here, all depends on choice.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on September 06, 2010, 04:40:15 PM

ok here are some led lighting i have done these are old garden lights taken apart internals used adderd led longer wires etc but they are all jt just a little more hightech then how we make them

with the dark pics i was hopeing to show how well lit the room is but dident work the ring light only runs off 1 light units could be made to work on 4 but 2 is god for a night light for the kids to see grand kids vist weekends you see

the light is there but not used the landing one is gone completly if it was just me in the house this would be my only lighting works well to see around any real lighting needed aka reading or computer i would have led lamps with the led's in a more focused beam

oh and the last to imiges are the unit from inside the garden light dark circuit with jt as they only use a 1.2 volt bater

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on September 07, 2010, 12:45:58 AM

just a update to my old stuff..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dplIIhCbMcE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dplIIhCbMcE)

just thought i might give a update before i move to a different design or device..

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on September 07, 2010, 03:11:57 AM

:) Thanks everybody great help!

another Question... I desoldered a flash camera transformer and am using it as a JT, I am getting
around 260+ volts output through a 1N4007 diode, however when I try to charge a flash cap...
It only charges up like this .....25......30..........35.............40...............45.....................50 volts
seems to take ages, yet I am using the disposable camera transformer, the same type that when in
the camera... it charges to 300 volts within few seconds.

What am I doing wrong ???

I should be able to charge a cap just as fast !

????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 07, 2010, 04:28:01 AM

I am not sure but, if I understand your set-up correctly, if you are using a diode between the transformer output from the secondary and the cap, you are only getting half the available output. This is the same reason I cut the diode on all of my Fuji circuits.

If I did not understand and this is not the case then I am sorry.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on September 07, 2010, 06:08:05 AM

Hello Bill, Just an ordinary JT setup, but instead of haveing a normal toroid, I am using a 5 pin Disp-Cam transformer, then a diode on output of one end of secondary of transformer.

On my DMM I am getting around the same volts (260+) as the Disp-cam was getting with the 5 pin transformer.

But the only difference is that when charging a HV cap, it go's up very slowly, yet the same set up in the camera - charges up within 2-3 seconds.

The only difference I am using a 2n2222, I have tried a BC547 and 2n3904...
still slow charging !

Whats the difference in the disp-camera oscillator and my JT ????

Do you know of any simple JT diagram that will charge say a 300 volt cap up in 2-6 seconds like a disp-camera???

Just one other thing... I used one camera circuit with its 330v cap and pressed the charge button, then when cap was charged, I took out the AA battery, and I connected my (20xLED bulb 240v mains powered)
to the cap, and it lit nicely, not sure how long it would light for.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on September 07, 2010, 06:53:59 AM

:) If I had an earth battery rated at 1 volt and charged a 3000 Farad 2.5v ultracap, would the earth battery fill the 3000 Farad cap up full, I know it would only charge to 1 volt, but would it fill up to its full 3000 farad capacity in amp hours, if you know what I mean ??????

I have tried this with a 10 or 55F cap and it charged full, but would the earth battery charge the big cap up full over a daylight charge????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on September 07, 2010, 07:51:51 AM

This was the circuit I was talking about. The one that charges a cap very fast.
Or at least that was the claim at that time.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 07, 2010, 09:07:17 AM

Quote from: freepow on September 07, 2010, 06:53:59 AM
:) If I had an earth battery rated at 1 volt and charged a 3000 Farad 2.5v ultracap, would the earth battery fill the 3000 Farad cap up full, I know it would only charge to 1 volt, but would it fill up to its full 3000 farad capacity in amp hours, if you know what I mean ??? ???

I have tried this with a 10 or 55F cap and it charged full, but would the earth battery charge the big cap up full over a daylight charge? ???

Good question. I was always told that caps store energy which is a combination of volts and amps, or mA's. My EB puts out about 1.9-2.0 volts and yet I can charge my 650F 2.7 volts cap to full capacity. Not to muddy the waters but there is something else going on as the cap captures those high spikes we see on the scope and stores them as usable power. I found this out a while ago and, although it may be common knowledge, I have never read of this so I keep saying it so others can try it too.

My gut tells me (without the EB involved) that if you charge a cap with 1 volt (pressure) then the cap will only have 1 volts available so I don't think that would count as "full" if it was a 2.7 volt cap. Now maybe others here smarter than I can comment. Maybe you would still get the full 650 farad capacity but delivered at only 1 volt? That I do not know.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: IotaYodi on September 07, 2010, 11:07:31 AM

My understanding is that standard dc current will stop flowing once a cap is filled. Ac current will charge and discharge the cap on its own. Having looked at scope shots of mine and others with an Eb,the current flow never stops completely or if it does it must be 1000th or more of a second. The time interval is what it may be and the scopes cant pick it up. This might account for so many radiant spikes. I would think the rate of current flow and voltage in from an earth battery would be the same on the output of the cap just like an ac current. Checking the output side of the cap,once filled, using an Eb may give some answers. Taking in the load factor of the meter also.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: DreamThinkBuild on September 07, 2010, 01:29:02 PM

Hi Freepow, All

A cap will only charge to the level of voltage supplied. Think of a 10v cap and you have 5v it will only charge to 5v.

Another analogy is like having a 10 gallon bucket and you fill it with a 5 gallon bucket it will still be 5 gallons of water. Current filling a 5 gallon bucket to the 10gallon bucket would be considered a hose, have a small hose it will take longer(low current). A large pipe will fill it quicker(high current). Just don't get too caught up in using the water analogy as it's pretty frowned at by electronic engineers. :)

I recently built a solar cap charger. There are 6 panels at .5v wired in series 3volts out and the open current is 1.60 amps so around 4.8watts. There is a blocking diode which drops around .35 volts so the output average is around 2.65v +/- .5 if in direct sun or cloudy. In maximum sun it will go over the 2.7 limit but since I don't use any kind of sun tracking it does this for only about 1/2 hour. The reverse diode keeps it from going down when clouds go over. There is no regulator since it will charge to that maximum supplied. It usually takes a full day to charge a 1500F cap to around 2.56v-2.69v with the current setup depends on cloudiness. If I increase the amps with another row of six I could get it charging faster.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 07, 2010, 07:07:00 PM

DTB:

Nice solar panel there. Wow, you have a 1500 F boost cap? Mine is only 650. Can I ask where you bought it from and how much? One of those is on my wish list.

Thanks,

Bil

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on September 08, 2010, 07:47:08 AM

:) Thanks everyone for your answers.

@ BILL... How long does it take to fill your 650 Farad 2.7v CAP to full capacity with your EB ????
How many available mA's do you have in your fully charged CAP to use for projects ????

Also if you had a solar panel with diode with output of 2.7v at 10 Amps, would that fill your Cap
to full capacity in say 1/2 hour or so ?????

Or would a EB fill it quicker ????
Thanks.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 08, 2010, 08:24:21 AM

Good questions all. I can only answer some of them.

The last time I filled my big cap it took about 4 hours, give or take.

The mA's available in a cap like that depends. The 650 F cap has, according to the literature, available 3,000 amps. Now, it can only do that for a very short time but, it will melt large wires if shorted and it can hurt or kill you. The thing I like about these and other supercaps is that they only deliver the mA's needed and do not dump everything they have all at once. So, you can use it like a battery which is what I have been doing with all of my supercaps.

As far as the solar with a diode, I have no idea but, with that much power I would guess it would not take that long. My EB puts out about 19 mA's give or take generally speaking so, your solar panels have much more power.

Funny thing is, I have never used a diode in my EB charging system. To be honest, I didn't know I needed one. The thing that saves me is that my EB, with the large spikes, must have more input flowing to the cap than the other way around. The DMM shows my EB as putting out about 1.9-2.0 volts but the spikes will charge it up to the full 2.7. It must be higher than the 2.7 volts or I would need the diode to keep it from reversing.

I hope this helps.

Bill PS I just got a line on a boost cap of 1,600 F for like $50 US. If I can find the money, I want one.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: DreamThinkBuild on September 08, 2010, 11:58:01 AM

Hi Freepow, All

In order to calculate the charging time you would need to figure out the RC time constant.

T=R*C

Using my solar charger as an example I would need to calculate the resistance from the maximum amps which is 1.6a.
2.65v is from solar panel at ideal conditions after diode.

R = V/I = (2.65v/1.6a) = 1.6ohms

Now we can calculate the time constant.

T = (1.6*1500F) = 2400 seconds

Charging to full power will take 5 time constants:

(5T*2400)=12000 seconds= 200 minutes = 3.33 hours in a ideal world with constant sun and optimum angle. More like 4+ in the real world with clouds.

@10 amps it would be:
R= (2.65v/10amps) = 0.265ohms
T= (0.265*1500F) = 397.5 seconds
Charge time = (5T*397.5)=1987.5 seconds = 33.12 minutes

QuoteI just got a line on a boost cap of 1,600 F for like $50 US. If I can find the money, I want one.

;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on September 08, 2010, 12:00:52 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on September 08, 2010, 08:24:21 AM
Good questions all. I can only answer some of them.

The last time I filled my big cap it took about 4 hours, give or take.

The mA's available in a cap like that depends. The 650 F cap has, according to the literature, available 3,000 amps. Now, it can only do that for a very short time but, it will melt large wires if shorted and it can hurt or kill you. The thing I like about these and other supercaps is that they only deliver the mA's needed and do not dump everything they have all at once. So, you can use it like a battery which is what I have been doing with all of my supercaps.

As far as the solar with a diode, I have no idea but, with that much power I would guess it would not take that long. My EB puts out about 19 mA's give or take generally speaking so, your solar panels have much more power.

Funny thing is, I have never used a diode in my EB charging system. To be honest, I didn't know I needed one. The thing that saves me is that my EB, with the large spikes, must have more input flowing to the cap than the other way around. The DMM shows my EB as putting out about 1.9-2.0 volts but the spikes will charge it up to the full 2.7. It must be higher than the 2.7 volts or I would need the diode to keep it from reversing.

I hope this helps.

Bill PS I just got a line on a boost cap of 1,600 F for like $50 US. If I can find the money, I want one.

Bill

wouldent mind one my self these would be ideal for my solar lighting

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 08, 2010, 08:41:34 PM

I was alerted to this by another member and it appears to be a heck of a deal:

http://cgi.ebay.com/HIGH-POWER-Ultracapacitor-Solar-Panel-LED-Science-Kit-/370408534397?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item563e11b17d (http://cgi.ebay.com/HIGH-POWER-Ultracapacitor-Solar-Panel-LED-Science-Kit-/370408534397?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item563e11b17d)

You get a 1,500 F boost cap AND solar panels AND leds. (for $54.99 US) As soon as I can afford it, I will get a kit.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: IotaYodi on September 08, 2010, 09:19:26 PM

Heres a 3000F.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370416238952&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Data Sheet.
http://maxwell.interconnectnet.com/ultracapacitors/datasheets/DATASHEET_K2_SERIES_1015370.pdf

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 08, 2010, 10:33:54 PM

Quote from: IotaYodi on September 08, 2010, 09:19:26 PM
Heres a 3000F.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370416238952&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370416238952&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT)

Data Sheet.
http://maxwell.interconnectnet.com/ultracapacitors/datasheets/DATASHEET_K2_SERIES_1015370.pdf (http://maxwell.interconnectnet.com/ultracapacitors/datasheets/DATASHEET_K2_SERIES_1015370.pdf)

Holly Crap!

That is about what I paid a while back for my 650 F. Hooked to a decent JT circuit, this thing could light leds for who knows how long? OK, I am adding this to my wish list also.

Thanks for posting this.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 09, 2010, 01:01:22 AM

Quote from: kooler on September 07, 2010, 12:45:58 AM
just a update to my old stuff..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dplIIhCbMcE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dplIIhCbMcE)

just thought i might give a update before i move to a different design or device..

robbie

Thanks robbie.
Somehow I missed the circuit. I saw the video just before but not the one with the circuit. You are right... I am very surprised at how this wires up.
I am super busy these days but this looks simple enough for a quick try.

I really like what you did.

Thank you so much for the update.

jeanna.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on September 09, 2010, 03:43:15 AM

@ DreamThinkBuild

When you say to charge cap fully it needs 5 time constants... is that for any size supercaps or just the 1500F ????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Poit on September 09, 2010, 07:40:15 AM

I built my first JT today ... yay for me :)

I feel like such a novice lol....

Does anyone recommend cool stuff to do with it? (besides the LED+JT)

Pete
P.S I applied it to my salt water battery setup, works great!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: DreamThinkBuild on September 09, 2010, 08:15:58 AM

Hi Freepow,

QuoteWhen you say to charge cap fully it needs 5 time constants... is that for any size supercaps or just the 1500F ????

You can put any capacitor into the formula.

Time constant = Resistance * Capacitor value

Five time constants represent a full charge but for purists it's about ten time constants. :D

Here is a calculator on line:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/capchg.html

You just have to convert your F cap to uF for the above calculator:

http://www.unitconversion.org/electrostatic-capacitance/farads-to-microfarads-conversion.html

Hi IotaYodi,

3000F, you can make a nice pulse heater with that. You would need about 3v, 60 amps to charge the 3000F in 11 minutes. 6x6 .5v solar cells@7 amps (9 columns * 6 rows)=54 cells would do. If you have two caps while one is heating the element the other is charging it would reduce the time in half. You just need a switching circuit to cycle between charge to heat.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on September 09, 2010, 09:44:33 AM

:) Just a quick experiment... I put 1x small copper pipe and 1x thin galv steel rod, both about 8" long
into the ground giving me approx 0.95v at around 2 mA's and connected 1x 55F 2.5v Capacitor to
the earth battery, and charged cap for around
8 hours or so, then took it in to power my HV Joulethief with the 240v mains powered (20x Led bulb).
It lit all 20 Led's for about 3 minutes or so, the cap was only charged to 0.952v, but if I had charged
2x of these caps in parallel, then connected them in series to the Joulethief, I would have had 1.9v
Then my (20x Led bulb) would have been really bright, because it lights really bright with
2 used AA's at approx 2.0-2.4v
Here is a picture of my setup - diagram.

Light using the earth for power, free!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 09, 2010, 11:00:22 AM

@ Pete:

Welcome and good job on your JT. You have already figured out something great to do with it by hooking to your home made battery. The only limit now is the imagination. Please continue to post about your experiments.

Freepow:

Yes, getting free energy from the earth is really cool isn't it? I am still amazed by it. Great job!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: The Observer on September 09, 2010, 12:27:17 PM

Free Pow,

Nice work.
I did notice 1 inaccuracy in your statement.

The earth is not Providing any Power that I am aware of.
You could have done the same thing by sticking your metals in a Glass of water.

One of the metals is leaching (by way of moisture, into the ground)
This causes 1 metal to have less electrons than the other.
Then the 2nd Metal's electrons try to move where there are less. (to the 1st metal)
Finally you captured those electrons in the Capacitor that your brought inside.

One thing that earth batteries may do is prevent electroplating on the 2nd metal.
I admit that I haven't studied the earth batteries as some here have... anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. ;o)

Best Regards,
The Observer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 09, 2010, 01:28:08 PM

Observer:

I do not think you are totally correct. We have studied Nathan Stubblefield and his earth batteries for some time on those other topics. Mine is still working after 3 years now. Stubblefield said that there would be no deterioration of the materials if buried properly.

We are, I believe according to our studies, tapping into the Telluric currents of the earth. There is plenty of energy there. Inside, my electrodes barely put out anything, outside they put out about 1.9-2volts @ around 19 mA's or so. I have run 400 leds each Christmas from my EB set-up 2 years now. I love the free lighting.

The JT circuit is a natural for this type of power input. You can charge up large caps and run pretty much anything that you want. I can fill my 2.7 volt 650 Farad boost cap to full capacity with only about 2 volts input because there are some very high spikes ( not picked up on my DMM's) emitted from the earth and the cap stores those as usable power. These can be seen on my posted scope shots over there.

Check out the other topics if you are interested. It is really very fascinating stuff.

Bill

PS: Stubblefield lit his farm and heated his home, as well as powered the entire telephone system in Murry, KY with nothing but his earth batteries, which really are energy receivers and not batteries at all. All of this was done back in the late 1800s.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on September 09, 2010, 04:07:22 PM

@all

i made a drawing of the mk1 pickup coil and why i think it works and how it dose it , i am unable to confirm without proper tools , but that is what i have with what i got ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: The Observer on September 09, 2010, 04:15:05 PM

Pirate.. thanks the info.

Since an earth battery is picking up the supposed potential difference between 2 separate geographic spots,
Then 2 different kinds of metals would not be necessary...
as 2 copper electrodes work just fine from a regular Battery.

Are you using 2 different metals? Or will just a couple of identical electrodes work?

If only different metals work...then this would be a good test.
Put your electrodes in water.. does is give roughly the same Voltage/Current?

Thanks in advance for your response. ;o)

Best Regards,
The Observer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on September 09, 2010, 04:20:03 PM

@all

Also some clarifications , on radiant energy vs regular one .

If you have dc or slow ac it will pass in the wire standard copper vacuum , and resistance.

But the radian element only appears at high freq , at that point the dc will still be passing in the wire but the radian energy will be present around the wire .

One i get my dual jt running at higher freq i can use the battery leads as a power source ...

short video showing it , the pickup coil is not the average one , it is quite powerful for 15 feet of wire .

http://www.youtube.com/user/abramrk1#p/u/4/cJsz2Kd4R7o

starts at 1:15

after that i show the charge on a 5.5 volts .47 farad cap , that is at half speed , to get it at full speed i connect a full bridge rectifier between both collector of my npn/pnp config .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 09, 2010, 11:25:47 PM

Quote from: The Observer on September 09, 2010, 04:15:05 PM
Pirate.. thanks the info.

Since an earth battery is picking up the supposed potential difference between 2 separate geographic spots,
Then 2 different kinds of metals would not be necessary...
as 2 copper electrodes work just fine from a regular Battery.

Are you using 2 different metals? Or will just a couple of identical electrodes work?

If only different metals work...then this would be a good test.
Put your electrodes in water.. does is give roughly the same Voltage/Current?

Thanks in advance for your response. ;o)

Best Regards,
The Observer

If you read on the earth battery topic, that is exactly what I did back in the early days. a lot of folks were saying it was purely galvanic and nothing special, so I used 2 lengths of copper tubing and aligned them on the north/south meridian and...poof...still had voltage and power.

Then someone said this was because of the difference in my copper tubes from one another from when the 2 different tubes were made. I then informed them that these were cut from the same copper pipe.

Now, I use 2 carbon rods 9" long x 1" OD and a 5 pound block of magnesium with the N/S meridian alignment and the depth difference as close as I can match to the dip angle for my area.

I tried the water container with the electrodes but, almost instantly, you get degradation of the magnesium. You can see it breaking up.

This does not appear to happen when buried in the ground properly. Or, if it does, it is very, very slow.

Stubblefield was forced by the patent office to change the name of his device to include the word battery, as they did not understand how his coils worked. We read this in his letters.

I don't want to go too far off-topic here so if you are interested on how we went through all of this, check out the topic here:

Nathan Stubblefield Earth Battery/Self-Generating Induction Coil Replications. (Originally titled "Earth Battery)

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3500.0 (http://index.php?topic=3500.0)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: The Observer on September 10, 2010, 01:38:44 AM

Pirate,

Thanks for the info.
I wonder if sometimes a galvanic earth battery gets confused with a Telluric one.
Being that you are going to get a basic battery action using two metals and moisture.

Have a good one,
The Observer

P.S. Without looking... I seem to remember that Stub used a Ferro Core Transformer in his set-up.
You may know that I am adamant that Ferro Cores add energy to a system.
(by means of previously randomly oriented magnetic dipoles lining up in an organized fashion/
and collapsing by means of Anisotropic Energy as is utilized in a Basic JT or blocking oscillator)
I surmised that his setup wouldn't work with the Ferro... do you think that is true?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Poit on September 10, 2010, 02:50:04 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on September 09, 2010, 11:00:22 AM
@ Pete:

Welcome and good job on your JT. You have already figured out something great to do with it by hooking to your home made battery. The only limit now is the imagination. Please continue to post about your experiments.

Freepow:

Yes, getting free energy from the earth is really cool isn't it? I am still amazed by it. Great job!

Bill

thank you for your warm welcome :)

I placed an order today for 6 spindles of cotton coated copper wire (recommended by lasersaber)... I am very keen to replicate the stubblefield coil setup ... looks very promising.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: void109 on September 10, 2010, 03:56:53 PM

I finally built a joule thief, so I wanted to throw my hat in the ring. I followed the kooler backward JT schematic that's elsewhere in this thread. Using a magnetics strip wound 2" dia core, and 3/9/15 instead of 3/5/15 (5 wouldn't choke off the current) it lit one of my LEDs at 2.2mA. The thing that I found interesting in particular was as I added up to 10 more leds in parallel (could have gone farther, was late and tired), there wasn't a perceptible difference in brightness, and the amp draw did not change. I knew it would result in some rather efficient circuits, but it was truly astonishing!

I know I'm late to the JT game, but wow - thanks for all of the hard work that's already been done in this thread, I suspect I'll be tinkering with this for some time to come.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on September 10, 2010, 04:52:16 PM

I could not find the earth battery topic by clicking @pirate posted link and I found that this one works fine:

http://overunity.com/index.php/?topic=3500.0

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on September 10, 2010, 09:23:10 PM

Quote from: void109 on September 10, 2010, 03:56:53 PM
I finally built a joule thief, so I wanted to throw my hat in the ring. I followed the kooler backward JT schematic that's elsewhere in this thread. Using a magnetics strip wound 2" dia core, and 3/9/15 instead of 3/5/15 (5 wouldn't choke off the current) it lit one of my LEDs at 2.2mA. The thing that I found interesting in particular was as I added up to 10 more leds in parallel (could have gone farther, was late and tired), there wasn't a perceptible difference in brightness, and the amp draw did not change. I knew it would result in some rather efficient circuits, but it was truly astonishing!

I know I'm late to the JT game, but wow - thanks for all of the hard work that's already been done in this thread, I suspect I'll be tinkering with this for some time to come.

yes it is very efficient.. if you put a inductor of 100uh or close on each side of the battery before the circuit you can make the transistor far beyond its cutoff voltage.. so when the battery is at 0.25 volts it is still running.. kool huh
i built this circuit to cut out the adjusting the pot all the time.. like you do with the regular joule thief..
i have other schematics of the bjt if you want them..

robbie

ps.. your not late to the jt game.. it's never to late to learn new or old stuff

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 11, 2010, 03:46:31 AM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on September 10, 2010, 04:52:16 PM
I could not find the earth battery topic by clicking @pirate posted link and I found that this one works fine:

http://overunity.com/index.php/?topic=3500.0 (http://overunity.com/index.php/?topic=3500.0)

Jesus:

Thank you. I have no idea why my link did not work.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on September 11, 2010, 04:16:32 AM

Quote from: kooler on September 10, 2010, 09:23:10 PM
yes it is very efficient.. if you put a inductor of 100uh or close on each side of the battery before the circuit you can make the transistor far beyond its cutoff voltage.. so when the battery is at 0.25 volts it is still running.. kool huh
i built this circuit to cut out the adjusting the pot all the time.. like you do with the regular joule thief..
i have other schematics of the bjt if you want them..

robbie

ps.. your not late to the jt game.. it's never to late to learn new or old stuff

Robbie (Kooler) !

It would be very helpful for newcomers (and also for people like me who try to advance their knowledge about the Joule Thief circuit and its derivatives) if you could post your best JT-circuits here again .

You probably did show everything in this thread (or elsewhere) before, but it is so hard to find in the very many posts.

I also would like to ask other people (who are still around) to post their best circuit. There must be some five to ten good circuits around (hidden somewhere in this enormous heap of messages). Asking people to read through the thread from the beginning is kind of rude, because 90% of the posts are rather social and Freudian instead of technical.

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 11, 2010, 04:56:53 AM

Conrad:

See the JT circuit diagrams (schematics) topic which I began to help with this very situation:

http://overunity.com/index.php/?topic=6942.0 (http://overunity.com/index.php/?topic=6942.0)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Poit on September 11, 2010, 05:24:47 AM

I made a salt water battery with a JT. (I know its nothing new, been done a million times before). I got fairly impressive results though, 1volt @ 50 - 60mA. I want to scale this up 100 fold, to get 5 - 6 Amps.

PHOTOS RESIZED BY MODERATOR

Please post no larger than 800 x 600.

Thank you.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 11, 2010, 05:36:41 AM

POIT:

Nice job on the mA's. That is decent.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Poit on September 11, 2010, 07:25:50 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on September 11, 2010, 05:36:41 AM
POIT:

Nice job on the mA's. That is decent.

Bill

thanks :)

An issue with it is that the salt in the water settles at the bottom of the glass after a while, and when this happens the voltage drops off and the mA drops down significantly, the water becomes less conductive and thus the chemical reaction between the copper and galvanised screws become less.... is there any ways I can fix this? make the water and salt stay mixed.. Sea water might be a solution?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on September 11, 2010, 09:25:56 AM

Boil the salt water solution and use it when cold.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: IotaYodi on September 11, 2010, 10:20:28 AM

You could possibly use some type of cloth like cotton and wrap it. A few copper pieces could also be flattened with cloth in between,and then wrap cloth around that. This should hold the salt in better.
Dont know if this would work. Wrap cloth around the copper,then a layer of aluminum foil,then another layer of cloth. Dont know how long the foil would last or even if it would boost power.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 12, 2010, 03:49:15 PM

Quote from: conradelektro on September 11, 2010, 04:16:32 AM
Robbie (Kooler) !

It would be very helpful for newcomers (and also for people like me who try to advance their knowledge about the Joule Thief circuit and its derivatives) if you could post your best JT-circuits here again .

You probably did show everything in this thread (or elsewhere) before, but it is so hard to find in the very many posts.

I also would like to ask other people (who are still around) to post their best circuit. There must be some five to ten good circuits around (hidden somewhere in this enormous heap of messages). Asking people to read through the thread from the beginning is kind of rude, because 90% of the posts are rather social and Freudian instead of technical.

Greetings, Conrad

Conrad,
I missed Kooler's more perfected circuit too.
I found it on his yt video and snapped a screen shot.
Here it is but without the very intriguing inductors he just mentioned.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 12, 2010, 04:01:19 PM

Quote from: Poit on September 11, 2010, 07:25:50 AM
thanks :)

An issue with it is that the salt in the water settles at the bottom of the glass after a while, and when this happens the voltage drops off and the mA drops down significantly, the water becomes less conductive and thus the chemical reaction between the copper and galvanised screws become less.... is there any ways I can fix this? make the water and salt stay mixed.. Sea water might be a solution?

Hi poit, (and welcome!)

I agree with jesus. The boiling water will allow more salt get and stay in the solution without dropping to the bottom even after it cools.

It is also the surface area that determines the amount of mA the circuit will give, and I have been wanting to add a copper scrubbie stuffed inside my copper pipe to add the surface area.

Lidmotor did this with a galvanized scrubbie and made a simple (0.7v) galvanic battery which did well, so I want to see if the extra copper surface of the added scrubbie will add to the mA.
Lasersaber said he gave up on the copper, and used a carbon rod because his mA maintained a higher level.

I might have time today and might not, so I am passing my idea along for anybody to try.
It is very telling to use one of these galvanic batteries with the joule thief.
I think you get the real story of the amps use with these.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on September 12, 2010, 04:14:44 PM

Hello lady @jeanna!

I was browsing and found his new topic and made a composition of his new posted circuits.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Flux4Energizer on September 13, 2010, 10:15:18 AM

Hello guys,

I've been keeping track of this topic for a long time now.
Seen a lot of good circuits which i replicated, but today i was bored and i decided to build a PIC programmer.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWV5vnOxphg)

After this i thought lets try to make a JT which is controlled by a microprocessor with a feedback to source.
I've been try-ing to make a good JT with F2S so i don't have to swap batteries all of the time.
Now with the PIC controlled JT the Feedback is quit easy.

This is what i came up with: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaTkm2YOW3w

This is just a very rough design and a work in progress.
The next step will be to let the batteries which run the microprocessor also run multiple JT circuits controlled by 1 PIC and feeding the energy which is held in the capacitor of every circuit feed back to each battery.
So in this case i will get at least 4 JT circuits.

All ideas are welcome.

Regards,

Flux 4 Energizer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: teslaalset on September 13, 2010, 11:27:08 AM

Quote from: Flux4Energizer on September 13, 2010, 10:15:18 AM
Hello guys,

I've been keeping track of this topic for a long time now.
Seen a lot of good circuits which i replicated, but today i was bored and i decided to build a PIC programmer.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWV5vnOxphg)

After this i thought lets try to make a JT which is controlled by a microprocessor with a feedback to source.
I've been try-ing to make a good JT with F2S so i don't have to swap batteries all of the time.
Now with the PIC controlled JT the Feedback is quit easy.

This is what i came up with: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaTkm2YOW3w

This is just a very rough design and a work in progress.
The next step will be to let the batteries which run the microprocessor also run multiple JT circuits controlled by 1 PIC and feeding the energy which is held in the capacitor of every circuit feed back to each battery.
So in this case i will get at least 4 JT circuits.

All ideas are welcome.

Regards,

Flux 4 Energizer

Flux, interesting approach.
Can you post a diagram of the feedback circuit you used ?
Thanks!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on September 13, 2010, 04:09:17 PM

@flux4energizer

What you did is what I am studying now. I mean the part of using a pic programmer.

The feedback to the source is not correct. You are charging a battery that is not the source. Pay attention that the source are the 4 AA batteries.
Nice job!

Please post a schematic if it is not too much to ask.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Flux4Energizer on September 13, 2010, 04:50:34 PM

@teslaalset

Thank you for your nice comment.
I don't have a circuit diagram yet to post.
Just started of with a standard JT with a secondary and took it from there.
Of course i had a basic concept, but i changed too many things to give you a circuit diagram right away. I will however sort the circuit out.

Regards,

Flux 4 Energizer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Flux4Energizer on September 13, 2010, 04:55:25 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on September 13, 2010, 04:09:17 PM
@flux4energizer

What you did is what I am studying now. I mean the part of using a pic programmer.

The feedback to the source is not correct. You are charging a battery that is not the source. Pay attention that the source are the 4 AA batteries.
Nice job!

Please post a schematic if it is not too much to ask.

Jesus

@nievesoliveras
Hello, i never said i was charging the run battery, just said that i was feeding back the excess energy which isn't used by the led's back to it's source.
I just wanted to straigthen this out, i'm well aware of the fact that the microprocessor is draining the 4 AA batteries and also the 1 AAA battery running the circuit will drain after a certain period of time.

I just want to see if this is an efficient way of running a JT circuit.

Thanks for the comments.
Will be making updates soon, have to work for the upcomming few days; after that i'll work on the project some more.

Regards,

Flux 4 Energizer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: teslaalset on September 13, 2010, 05:20:49 PM

Quote from: Flux4Energizer on September 13, 2010, 04:50:34 PM
@teslaalset

Thank you for your nice comment.
I don't have a circuit diagram yet to post.
Just started of with a standard JT with a secondary and took it from there.
Of course i had a basic concept, but i changed too many things to give you a circuit diagram right away. I will however sort the circuit out.

Regards,

Flux 4 Energizer

Thanks Flux. Take your time.
I am Dutch too, fyi.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on September 13, 2010, 05:27:22 PM

@flux4energizer

You can post the template used for the pic programmer so we can replicate it in the meantime you get the other variables together.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Flux4Energizer on September 13, 2010, 05:47:00 PM

Quote from: teslaalset on September 13, 2010, 05:20:49 PM
Thanks Flux. Take your time.
I am Dutch too, fyi.

@teslaalset
In dat geval dank je voor je reactie haha.
Ik moet komende dagen werken dus duurt ff, maar zal het schema wel ff snel inscannen en posten.

F4E

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Flux4Energizer on September 13, 2010, 05:50:13 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on September 13, 2010, 05:27:22 PM
@flux4energizer

You can post the template used for the pic programmer so we can replicate it in the meantime you get the other variables together.

Jesus

@nievesoliveras
Just posted a similar answer above, but it's in dutch.
I have the diagram on paper for the PIC programmer i will scan it for you,
but have to work tomorrow so maybe i'll post it tomorrow but probably will be the day after then i know for sure i've got the time to post it for you and every-one else ofcourse.

Regards,
F4E

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on September 14, 2010, 01:29:29 AM

:) Hello, anyone feel free to answer my question, Thanks !!!

If I had a Joule thief putting out say... 60 Volts at around 10-25 mA's , I should be able to put
10-15 LED's in series and all should light up nice and bright !!!

Would that be correct ? as long as each LED gets about 3v or so.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 14, 2010, 01:35:04 AM

Maybe even twice as many. Give it a try. If the leds are in series it should not make all that much difference on the amp draw to add a few more lights.

By the way, the leds are not needing the whole 3 volts as they are only on for a very short time depending upon the transistor you are using. Let us know what happens but, I would bet you can get a bunch of them pretty bright.

Also, how do you know what the output is? If your meter reads 60 volts, well, due to the freq. and the limitations of your meter the real output is probably much higher anyway. Very difficult to measure the output of these neat little circuits.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Flux4Energizer on September 14, 2010, 04:50:00 AM

Hello guys,

Here is the scanned document (of the pic programmer) i promised.
I adjusted one thing tho and this is important!
The zener diode on the circuit (the 5.1 Volt) isn't a 5.1 volt but a 5.6 volt.
This is because of the diode right behind the zener it takes the voltage down and you want a voltage as close as possible to 5 volt so 5.6 volt is the closest!!!

Further the circuit is one on one.
I didn't build it as an ICSP but if you put a header where the socket is it is converted to an ICSP programmer (it's as easy as that).

If any of you guys want to see it in action look at my previous posts for the youtube link.
Enjoy.

Flux 4 Energizer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 14, 2010, 05:09:00 AM

Flux:

Thanks for posting this but...

Holy crap! This is well beyond my understanding of anything. I have so much to learn.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: teslaalset on September 14, 2010, 07:45:51 AM

Quote from: Flux4Energizer on September 14, 2010, 04:50:00 AM
Hello guys,

Here is the scanned document (of the pic programmer) i promised.
I adjusted one thing tho and this is important!
The zener diode on the circuit (the 5.1 Volt) isn't a 5.1 volt but a 5.6 volt.
This is because of the diode right behind the zener it takes the voltage down and you want a voltage as close as possible to 5 volt so 5.6 volt is the closest!!!

Further the circuit is one on one.
I didn't build it as an ICSP but if you put a header where the socket is it is converted to an ICSP programmer (it's as easy as that).

If any of you guys want to see it in action look at my previous posts for the youtube link.
Enjoy.

Flux 4 Energizer

Bedankt Flux,
If you have some time left, please also post the JT circuit with the feedback circuit.
I am trying to understand how you switch the JT on and off and how you managed to switch the capacitor to the battery by PIC control at the same time. I am sure others would like to understand that too.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on September 14, 2010, 08:15:56 AM

Thank you @flux4energizer!

I will draw on windows paint a clear copy of it and post it back as soon as I can.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on September 14, 2010, 10:38:39 AM

hey seen this patent? someone patented a joule thief with what looks like a mosfet. its designed to operate off of 0.1v and generate 3+ volts!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: teslaalset on September 14, 2010, 10:57:59 AM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on September 14, 2010, 10:38:39 AM
hey seen this patent? someone patented a joule thief with what looks like a mosfet. its designed to operate off of 0.1v and generate 3+ volts!

Can you attach a copy of this patent or mention the (US) number?
Only then we might be able to answer your question.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on September 14, 2010, 11:10:12 AM

yea i guess adding a patent number would be helpful huh?

Patent 4734658

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on September 14, 2010, 11:25:15 AM

it appears to be a standard joule thief 2 coils a mosfet and a resistor capacitor tank but the difference is its made with a mosfet and was patented in 1988 :) in this situation they have modified the base coil so that the resistor and capacitor tank is directly touching the base of the mosfet or "gate" and the coil is after. the coil however was set up so that it could osilate in a AC fasion. so a slightly different placement there. again however the base or gate coil is magnetically tied to the primary winding or source winding allowing it to be a blocking oscilator. the voltage however is down to 0.1 which is impressive!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: void109 on September 14, 2010, 03:08:37 PM

Wound a BJT on a magnetics square permalloy toroid, pretty typical setup with minor changes last night. Out of curiousity I wanted to check the battery level over a period of time, not methodical just ad-hoc.

T = 0 hours Initial voltage: 1130mV
T+2 hours: 1137mV
**disconnected oscilloscope and voltage meter**
T+13 hours 1124mV
T+15 hours 1128mV

You can see I was suspect that the increase in voltage was somehow from the scope or voltage meter, and when I checked many hours later a reduced voltage supported that hypothesis, but I let it run further and I see the voltage is again slowly rising. This setup has 8 leds very dimly lit. I will continue to let this run and if it continues this behavior I will start logging data at regular intervals and draw out the exact schematic and post videos.

My question is - is this behavior typical of a bjt or jt circuit (still new to the circuit)? The battery is a 1.4v ni-cad rechargeable.

Thanks!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 14, 2010, 05:09:18 PM

Quote from: freepow on September 14, 2010, 01:29:29 AM
:) Hello, anyone feel free to answer my question, Thanks !!!

If I had a Joule thief putting out say... 60 Volts at around 10-25 mA's , I should be able to put
10-15 LED's in series and all should light up nice and bright !!!

Would that be correct ? as long as each LED gets about 3v or so.

In my joule thief experience, the series leds need about 7-10 spiky volts to look as bright as they would from a straight dc circuit.
If I had 60v output from the secondary of my jtc, I would start with 12 leds and expect to take one or 2 out for full brightness, but at 60v 15 leds would most certainly all turn on.

I have a question for you, now...
What do you mean by saying the jtc puts out 10-25mA?
How are you measuring the output mA?
Or, are you measuring the circuit draw?

thanks,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on September 14, 2010, 05:12:55 PM

@viod109

please post this on the BJT topic! I just posted a circuit that will run off an calculator solar/maxcap indefinitely.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on September 14, 2010, 05:47:13 PM

As promised

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on September 14, 2010, 06:37:15 PM

Quote from: void109 on September 14, 2010, 03:08:37 PM
T = 0 hours Initial voltage: 1130mV
T+2 hours: 1137mV
**disconnected oscilloscope and voltage meter**
T+13 hours 1124mV
T+15 hours 1128mV
My question is - is this behavior typical of a bjt or jt circuit (still new to the circuit)? The battery is a 1.4v ni-cad rechargeable.

Thanks!

hey void109,
yes that is typical of the bjt but not the regular jt..
can you please post your other finds in the bjt thread..
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=9733.msg257118#new (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=9733.msg257118#new)

thanks
robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on September 14, 2010, 08:06:52 PM

Quote from: Flux4Energizer on September 14, 2010, 04:50:00 AM
Hello guys,

Here is the scanned document (of the pic programmer) i promised.
I adjusted one thing tho and this is important!
The zener diode on the circuit (the 5.1 Volt) isn't a 5.1 volt but a 5.6 volt.
This is because of the diode right behind the zener it takes the voltage down and you want a voltage as close as possible to 5 volt so 5.6 volt is the closest!!!

Further the circuit is one on one.
I didn't build it as an ICSP but if you put a header where the socket is it is converted to an ICSP programmer (it's as easy as that).

If any of you guys want to see it in action look at my previous posts for the youtube link.
Enjoy.

Flux 4 Energizer

Flux 4 Energizer

This looks similar to a project I have been thinking for a while.
My project is a controller to prevent overcharging a Ultra cap.
I was planning on using a LED like your circuit uses a zenier.
Most red LEDs start conducting at around 2 V ....... my U cap is 2.7V
I was planning on driving one transistor with the LED . Once the LED started conducting it would power a transistor that would be connected to different places on the JT charger .......the places would be chosen to disable the JT circuit to some degree as the transistor turns on......There are many configurations of the JT circuit that will not work well........this transistor would just change the configuration enough to keep the JT from effectively charging.
My best guess for the location for transistor is connected to an extra primary coil....... I have not tested it on a regular JT coil but on my candy cane coils an extra primary winding makes no difference at all as long as it is not connected to anything. As soon as you try to take some power off of it.......the JT crashes.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Flux4Energizer on September 15, 2010, 05:32:55 AM

@nievesoliveras

That is really nicely done!
Thank you for making that scematic.

@Pirate88179 / Bill
Thank you for the nice comment, but it's not that hard to understand tho.
If you like i can try to explain the circuit to you.

@teslaalset
I will do a circuit scematic a.s.a.p.
Don't have it completly myself. I just adjusted thing and fiddelt
with it till it worked and as you have seen there are a
lot of alligator clips to run through.

Regards,

Flux 4 Energizer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Flux4Energizer on September 15, 2010, 05:34:09 AM

Quote from: resonanceman on September 14, 2010, 08:06:52 PM
Flux 4 Energizer

This looks similar to a project I have been thinking for a while.
My project is a controller to prevent overcharging a Ultra cap.
I was planning on using a LED like your circuit uses a zenier.
Most red LEDs start conducting at around 2 V ....... my U cap is 2.7V
I was planning on driving one transistor with the LED . Once the LED started conducting it would power a transistor that would be connected to different places on the JT charger .......the places would be chosen to disable the JT circuit to some degree as the transistor turns on......There are many configurations of the JT circuit that will not work well........this transistor would just change the configuration enough to keep the JT from effectively charging.
My best guess for the location for transistor is connected to an extra primary coil....... I have not tested it on a regular JT coil but on my candy cane coils an extra primary winding makes no difference at all as long as it is not connected to anything. As soon as you try to take some power off of it.......the JT crashes.

gary

@resonanceman

Hello resonanceman,
I maybe interpreter your intentions wrong, but the way
i understand you, first of al you want to use a led as an overcharge
protection for a supercap.
This can be done but i woudn't go this way and i will tell
you why not. When you feedback the energy held by the supercap the led turns on,
this works great but the led will then take (depending on the led specs) 5mA up
to 20 mA (unless you take a low current one 2 mA).
So that is all loss. I would rather go for a zener in series with 2 parallel
resistors; one going to the negative of course and one going to the base
of a transistor or mosfet. This way you can controle the voltage level of the
supercap much more accurate and you will lose a lot less current
(for really low losses you can even darlington the transistors!!!).

The second i read from your story is that when the charging from the supercap
starts the input should stop (if i understand correctly).
This can be done quit easily; just place an extra transistor or mosfet
acting like a switch.

But now for the real problem; the way i can make up out of your words your JT
works just fine, but when you put a secondary winding on and you want to tap
energy of the JT crashes and doesn't work anymore!
Well this is a problem which sounds very familiar.
I can't tell you exactly what you should do because i don't know what kind of
circuit you're using, but i can explaine.
What probably is happening is you have a JT circuit with a secondary running
some leds well this works just fine but now you take out the leds and put in
a supercap therefor the capacitive load of the circuit changes and therefor the
resonance frequenty changes, when these two are out of sync the JT doesn't do
a thing (or crashes if you like).
You will have to see a JT circuit like a RCL circuit.
I would recomment to use koolers BJT circuit and use a 4k7 or 10k potentiometer
to tweak the circuit to find resonance.

Reagards,

Flux 4 Energizer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on September 15, 2010, 05:43:47 AM

:) sorry Jeanna, I meant just using only 10-25 mA draw from the battery powering hopefully 10-15 bright LED's.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Flux4Energizer on September 15, 2010, 07:33:26 AM

I just uploaded the continuation of my PIC controlled Joule Thief with Feedback 2 Source on to youtube.
For those who like to see it here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlfWSlf3BGk
While this video was uploading i was shooting another continuation with a few modifications in the circuit.
The mods i did because nievesoliveras (Jesus) pointed out that the feedback loop had a flaw in it!

Quote from: nievesoliveras on September 13, 2010, 04:09:17 PM
@flux4energizer

What you did is what I am studying now. I mean the part of using a pic programmer.

The feedback to the source is not correct. You are charging a battery that is not the source. Pay attention that the source are the 4 AA batteries.
Nice job!

Please post a schematic if it is not too much to ask.

Jesus

I was quit astonished that he was the only one who pointed out this fact; i really thought that everyone
here on the forum and over on youtube would point out this flaw but nobody did!!!
But this said, i totally agree with nievesoliveras (Jesus); the feedbackloop isn't right.
There is a small amount of energy 'leeking' from the batterypack to the run battery.

I want to point out that these first videos are just for my own educational purpose only.
My main goal was to create a working F2S (feedback 2 source) and i think i succeeded on that part.
The weird thing was that i saw the run battery climb up in voltage so i thought i make a video of it.

So this all said, comming back on the new video i just recorded with the modifications in them.
I modded the circuit using a opto coupler instead of a transistor to isolate the two circuits.
I will upload the video a.s.a.p.

Regards,

Flux 4 Energizer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Flux4Energizer on September 15, 2010, 08:34:58 AM

Just uploaded my latest video.
Modded JT with F2S video.
The circuit now holds a opto coupler.
Here is the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXtJ8grIFWc

Would like to hear your comments or ideas on this!!!

Regards,

Flux 4 Energizer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on September 15, 2010, 09:30:55 AM

@flux4energizer

Nice 2 videos.

I have questions from the schematic you uploaded to us.
1. There is a connection coming up from the junction of the two 10k resistors of the transistors. Is it forgotten and not connected or its just a drawing slip?
2. The transistor emitters or ground connection are connected to a 16v 10uf capacitor that feeds from positive. Is that correct?

Thank you for sharing your work with us.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Flux4Energizer on September 15, 2010, 10:14:31 AM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on September 15, 2010, 09:30:55 AM
@flux4energizer

Nice 2 videos.

I have questions from the schematic you uploaded to us.
1. There is a connection coming up from the junction of the two 10k resistors of the transistors. Is it forgotten and not connected or its just a drawing slip?
2. The transistor emitters or ground connection are connected to a 16v 10uf capacitor that feeds from positive. Is that correct?

Thank you for sharing your work with us.

Jesus

Thanks Jesus,

The junction on the 2 10K resitors will be your external power source positive connection (this you'll need for the newer type PIC's).
They need at leat 10 Volt at the MCLR to be able to program them.
So you'll connect a 12 - 16 volt power supply at that connection the 13v zener will then zener it to it's needed voltage.

The 16V 10uF is being supplied from the sub-d itself and is placed there to stabilize the 5 volt comming of your serial port.

Regards,

Flux 4 Energizer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on September 15, 2010, 10:21:21 AM

Thank you @flux4energizer!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on September 15, 2010, 12:43:24 PM

Quote from: Flux4Energizer on September 15, 2010, 05:34:09 AM
@resonanceman

Hello resonanceman,
I maybe interpreter your intentions wrong, but the way
i understand you, first of al you want to use a led as an overcharge
protection for a supercap.
This can be done but i woudn't go this way and i will tell
you why not. When you feedback the energy held by the supercap the led turns on,
this works great but the led will then take (depending on the led specs) 5mA up
to 20 mA (unless you take a low current one 2 mA).
So that is all loss. I would rather go for a zener in series with 2 parallel
resistors; one going to the negative of course and one going to the base
of a transistor or mosfet. This way you can controle the voltage level of the
supercap much more accurate and you will lose a lot less current
(for really low losses you can even darlington the transistors!!!).

The second i read from your story is that when the charging from the supercap
starts the input should stop (if i understand correctly).
This can be done quit easily; just place an extra transistor or mosfet
acting like a switch.

But now for the real problem; the way i can make up out of your words your JT
works just fine, but when you put a secondary winding on and you want to tap
energy of the JT crashes and doesn't work anymore!
Well this is a problem which sounds very familiar.
I can't tell you exactly what you should do because i don't know what kind of
circuit you're using, but i can explaine.
What probably is happening is you have a JT circuit with a secondary running
some leds well this works just fine but now you take out the leds and put in
a supercap therefor the capacitive load of the circuit changes and therefor the
resonance frequenty changes, when these two are out of sync the JT doesn't do
a thing (or crashes if you like).
You will have to see a JT circuit like a RCL circuit.
I would recomment to use koolers BJT circuit and use a 4k7 or 10k potentiometer
to tweak the circuit to find resonance.

Reagards,

Flux 4 Energizer

Flux4Energizer

I only have a few minutes to reply today.

I see we have a little misscomunication here.

I disagree that my circuit would be less efficient than yours.

Perhaps my usage of the word crashing caused some confusion.

I think the biggest difference between my circuit and yours..... ( your hand drawn circuit ) ......you interface your circuit with a chip......I connect mine directly to the JT
Most of the parts of my circuit are similar to your hand drawn circuit.....
You have your chip running all the time...my circuit is completely passive until the U cap is nearly fully charged ........ then the excess power is used to crash or inhibit the efficiency of the charger

My explaining about the the JT crashing when power is taken off of an extra primary is not a problem I am having........ it is an observation of an effect that I plan on using to control my JT
In other words.........using my transistor to ground one end of an extra primary winding should reduce the output of the JT or complertely shut it down depending on how strong the signal is.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on September 15, 2010, 03:22:59 PM

Hi @resonanceman!

Are you going to post your circuit?

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dllabarre on September 15, 2010, 04:06:07 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on September 15, 2010, 03:22:59 PM
Hi @resonanceman!

Are you going to post your circuit?

Jesus

resonanceman!

I'd like to see a copy of your circuit as well.

DonL

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 15, 2010, 10:33:33 PM

Quote from: freepow on September 15, 2010, 05:43:47 AM
:) sorry Jeanna, I meant just using only 10-25 mA draw from the battery powering hopefully 10-15 bright LED's.

OK,
This is what I answered.
You should figure 7 spiky volts per led to start and this 60v output should give you what you are looking for.

I have found that the 10-25mA draw will be drawn when there are no leds or many. It is the basic joule thief that takes that, and the leds being 'excited' by the secondary seem not to affect the draw. (Sometimes, the draw seems to go down.)

Bottom line:
7 spiky volts per series led,
and
450 spiky volts minimum for a cfl

I hope that clears up what I am trying to say!

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Flux4Energizer on September 16, 2010, 02:14:07 AM

Quote from: resonanceman on September 15, 2010, 12:43:24 PM
Flux4Energizer

I only have a few minutes to reply today.

I see we have a little misscomunication here.

I disagree that my circuit would be less efficient than yours.

Perhaps my usage of the word crashing caused some confusion.

I think the biggest difference between my circuit and yours..... ( your hand drawn circuit ) ......you interface your circuit with a chip......I connect mine directly to the JT
Most of the parts of my circuit are similar to your hand drawn circuit.....
You have your chip running all the time...my circuit is completely passive until the U cap is nearly fully charged ........ then the excess power is used to crash or inhibit the efficiency of the charger

My explaining about the the JT crashing when power is taken off of an extra primary is not a problem I am having........ it is an observation of an effect that I plan on using to control my JT
In other words.........using my transistor to ground one end of an extra primary winding should reduce the output of the JT or complertely shut it down depending on how strong the signal is.

gary

@resonanceman (Gary),

Oke, i see what you mean now.
Well i can be very brief in this case; the circuit you discribe won't work!!!
I understand where you are going with this but you oversee one little problem; as soon as you will use the red led as a
voltage protection for your 2.7 Volt supercap you will distroy your supercap!!!
You made a little miscalculation here; let me explain: the red led starts conducting when a voltage of 2 volts (or so) is reached.
This means you have a zero volt negative and a 2 volt positive. When you hook up a led directly on 12 Volt you will burn out the led right???
Well this isn't really true -> the led will burn out when +12V and -0V is used, BUT when +12 Volt is used as the positive and +10 Volt as a negative
the led will glow very nice and need (i think you get where iÂ´m going at!?!).

Now in your circuit you'll have the drive battery (i think 1.2 up to 1.5 Volt) and the charge ultra cap (2.7 Volt as you said).
So in the worsed case your led will start conducting at 1.5 + 2.0 = 3.5 Volt.
This is why i say it will not work because it's not reliable.
It only protects your ultra cap if your drive battery is at 0.6 up to 0.7 volts!!!
There are still more reasons why this won't work but i will stop here because this is the main issue.

I hope you agree, but if not i would like to hear your thoughts about it.

P.S.
I don't use a zener diode in my JT circuit.
The circuit shown is a picprogrammer circuit JDM style!!!

Regards,

Flux 4 Energizer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: DimaWari on September 16, 2010, 03:32:11 AM

@Flux4Energizer

I think he use zener diode to helps create a sawtooth wave form...
Maybe u can produce more collapsing magnetic flux line because it contains even and odd harmonics.. wont they?

http://talkingelectronics.com/projects/XenonFlasher/XenonFlasher.html

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Flux4Energizer on September 16, 2010, 08:20:51 AM

@DimaWari
I really don't know. Would like to see his circuit so we can take a look.

@resonanceman
Could you post your circuit?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on September 16, 2010, 10:43:59 AM

koolers circuit that runs off of 0.16mah was that posted and i missed it? i would assume its very similiar to his other posted backwards joule? if anyone has a moment i would love to see how he got the draw reduced so low.

thanks!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on September 16, 2010, 12:36:06 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on September 15, 2010, 03:22:59 PM
Hi @resonanceman!

Are you going to post your circuit?

Jesus

Jesus

I will try to draw up a schematic as soon as I have time

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on September 16, 2010, 12:46:45 PM

Quote from: Flux4Energizer on September 16, 2010, 02:14:07 AM
@resonanceman (Gary),

Oke, i see what you mean now.
Well i can be very brief in this case; the circuit you discribe won't work!!!
I understand where you are going with this but you oversee one little problem; as soon as you will use the red led as a
voltage protection for your 2.7 Volt supercap you will distroy your supercap!!!
You made a little miscalculation here; let me explain: the red led starts conducting when a voltage of 2 volts (or so) is reached.
This means you have a zero volt negative and a 2 volt positive. When you hook up a led directly on 12 Volt you will burn out the led right???
Well this isn't really true -> the led will burn out when +12V and -0V is used, BUT when +12 Volt is used as the positive and +10 Volt as a negative
the led will glow very nice and need (i think you get where iÂ´m going at!?!).

Now in your circuit you'll have the drive battery (i think 1.2 up to 1.5 Volt) and the charge ultra cap (2.7 Volt as you said).
So in the worsed case your led will start conducting at 1.5 + 2.0 = 3.5 Volt.
This is why i say it will not work because it's not reliable.
It only protects your ultra cap if your drive battery is at 0.6 up to 0.7 volts!!!
There are still more reasons why this won't work but i will stop here because this is the main issue.

I hope you agree, but if not i would like to hear your thoughts about it.

P.S.
I don't use a zener diode in my JT circuit.
The circuit shown is a picprogrammer circuit JDM style!!!

Regards,

Flux 4 Energizer

Flux4Energizer

We will see it it works or not.

Your logic only applies if your assumptions of what I am doing and how I am doing it are correct.

In preliminary tests my red LED starts conducting at 1.75V ...... ( Edit this should be 1.705 V )

so far my U cap has not exploded. :)

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 16, 2010, 06:36:21 PM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on September 16, 2010, 10:43:59 AM
koolers circuit that runs off of 0.16mah was that posted and i missed it? i would assume its very similiar to his other posted backwards joule? if anyone has a moment i would love to see how he got the draw reduced so low.

thanks!

I think he used series inductors at each side of the battery.
He started a new thread and that is where the details can be found.
I think he called it bjt (not meaning basic jt, but backwards jt!)
I am sure you can find it in the joule thief department.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 16, 2010, 06:48:34 PM

Jeanna is correct. That topic is located here:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=9733.0

If my link works, lately, they have not been working. If not, just copy and paste into browser. The info in my link is accurate.

Bill

PS My link does not work again. Anyone have any ideas on this? This just started a few weeks ago. I copied and pasted from my browser and everything is exactly correct. When I put it into link form, it now gives a 404 error even though I can copy and paste the info and it then works.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 17, 2010, 01:12:59 AM

must be those green stars messing it up! ;D

It works for me.
Thanks, Bill. I was too busy earlier to make the link.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 17, 2010, 04:15:49 AM

Jeanna:

Yes, I was able to finally make it work but it took 4 tries of making the link the same way to get it to do so. This has happened to me on several other topics as well. I have no idea why. This is fairly recent as before I had no problems at all.

I did an upgrade on Firefox...I wonder if that is messing with something in the smf software?

Thanks,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on September 17, 2010, 12:38:02 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on September 16, 2010, 12:36:06 PM
Jesus

I will try to draw up a schematic as soon as I have time

gary

It may take a while before I get the schematic made .......I have way to much other stuff going on.
I thought about taking the time yesterday......but decided against it because I do not have working proof yet.
Simply making a drawing will change nothing.
All the concepts are simple......it is just a matter of putting them all together.
The fact that a LED is a diode and will not conduct until it starts to light up is well known......I am just using that as a 2 V automatic switch ( the fact that the LED lights up is icing on the cake to me. I needed a switch but also wanted a visual indicator )
The forward voltage drop across a normal diode is around a half volt....I plan on using a diode (or 2 ) in series with my LED to get it to light up closer to my 2.7 V max

Anyone that has played with JT secondarys much knows that if you have 2 secondarys unless you balance them very carefully the power will go to the lowest resistance load. ..... this applies to primarys as well....... my plan was to drive the base of the transistor using the LED as a switch....
The transistor will be connected between a battery terminal and an extra primary coil.
I am thinking of making the base coil bifiler or the entire primary trifilar.
As the LED starts to conduct the transistor will make the extra primary lower resistance ......and it will absorb more of the power that the normal base winding would have got.....dampening the JT.

I hope that this at least makes it clear what I am trying to do.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on September 17, 2010, 03:39:09 PM

@resonanceman

That is almost clear.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 17, 2010, 09:35:41 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on September 16, 2010, 06:48:34 PM
Jeanna is correct. That topic is located here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=9733.0
If my link works, lately, they have not been working. If not, just copy and paste into browser. The info in my link is accurate.
Bill
PS My link does not work again. Anyone have any ideas on this? This just started a few weeks ago. I copied and pasted from my browser and everything is exactly correct. When I put it into link form, it now gives a 404 error even though I can copy and paste the info and it then works.

The link above loads and runs perfectly for me. I've seen random 'Web malfunctions in the past; it's happened to me, too.

Big Brother? MIB's? ::) >:( ??? ;D

--Lee

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on September 18, 2010, 10:09:25 AM

Check this out!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iBQHWXVvCw&feature=related

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on September 18, 2010, 10:50:59 AM

Thank you @stprue

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on September 18, 2010, 10:57:23 AM

This guy has some pretty cool videos!!

:o

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on September 18, 2010, 11:12:11 AM

Quote from: stprue on September 18, 2010, 10:57:23 AM
This guy has some pretty cool videos!!

:o

I will try to watch some.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on September 19, 2010, 08:14:37 AM

has anyone considered that a true origional joule thief makes use of a rf choke? i was looking at chokes and noticed you can actually use them in a variety of ways with a variety of coil configurations. what interests me most is that they made note of rf interference in power lines. well what about tapping that rf interfearence for some free energy from the worlds largest antenna? ;D

theoretically you would need a choke that only allows frequencies out of the 60hz range to pass or a circuit. then seperate the hot and neutral wires going into your fuse/breaker box and wrap a reciever around one wire (optionally a second reciever could be made for the other wire) then sit back and enjoy the ride.

@ Bill
we once played with the earth batteries (you may even still use it) remember that story about a ground connection every i dont know 100 some odd feet or something? and how each additionall ground added to the power? think of all the houses! and ground taps! i dont know how the telephone company has their equipment rigged but i think they actually have circuit boxes that would have rf chokes in them so thats probobly not an option. maybe the plumbing pipes? but now adays they are plastic atleast in my area they are.

i once heard a story of a farmer who placed a box under a high voltage transmission line, the box was not attached to anything and still gathered enough power to run a farm as the story goes.

ok so this is off topic from the joule, if anyone wants to persue it further we could start a seperate thread.

just a thought.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: zhak on September 19, 2010, 10:56:57 AM

good all day

nievesoliveras

this experience very quickly drain the battery AA.
person named Igor, can always help to reproduce the circuit

he will not accept the name thief joule, its products under the brand tros, but he does not deny that this one too

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on September 19, 2010, 03:36:07 PM

@zhak

I was looking at tros videos and found three schematics. I will post them for everybody.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on September 19, 2010, 09:58:35 PM

:) @ Jeanna, I am waiting on a heap of superbright 5mm LED's from overseas, Is it possible to light say
12-18 LED's in series with 7-10 spiky volts per LED with a total current draw from a
JT of 5-25 mA's and all LED's lit fully bright ????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 20, 2010, 01:29:28 AM

Quote from: freepow on September 19, 2010, 09:58:35 PM
:) @ Jeanna, I am waiting on a heap of superbright 5mm LED's from overseas, Is it possible to light say
12-18 LED's in series with 7-10 spiky volts per LED with a total current draw from a
JT of 5-25 mA's and all LED's lit fully bright ????

I don't think I have done that.
My circuit with multiple secondaries used 245mA when it lit 30 or 32 leds to full brightness.
With series inductors and maybe a cap in the right amount and in the right place, maybe you can.

Parallel is a different story.
I made a very bright light with 6 parallel strings of 7 leds that were in series for 42 leds. I don't think they were fully bright and 4 strings would have sufficed. (I think 4 strings would give the same total brightness.)
The experiment was also to see if the frequency seemed to hurt the leds.
I believe it did NOT.

Anyway, to answer your question:
If you have a 25mA circuit that produces 120-180 spiky volts, the answer should be yes.
Be sure you have a very high permeability toroid, or this won't work.
Maybe a higher value series inductor will do it. I love this idea... please try it.

@Artic Knight
NOT a choke... OK?
The joule thief uses a high permeability toroid. the highest permeability you can find.
Type W is what you want.
I wasted $35 on a minimum order of chokes that wouldn't even turn the circuit on.
Maybe this can save you some trouble.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on September 20, 2010, 07:22:17 AM

@ Jeanna, What do you mean when you say... Maybe a higher value series inductor will do it.

@ All... Does anyone here know if say you had a 2.7v 650F CAP, and you charged it up with mA's or Amps
at only 1v, would the CAP still charge to its full capacity of Amps ,even though you only
charged it to 1volt instead of 2.7v ????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: teslaalset on September 20, 2010, 08:28:10 AM

Quote from: freepow on September 20, 2010, 07:22:17 AM
@ All... Does anyone here know if say you had a 2.7v 650F CAP, and you charged it up with mA's or Amps
at only 1v, would the CAP still charge to its full capacity of Amps ,even though you only
charged it to 1volt instead of 2.7v ????

For a capacitor the following formula holds:

Q=C*U

Capacity C is given.
So, if you charge it up to 1 V, Q (charge) will be 1/2.7 of the maximum charge it can hold.
Charge (Q) en current (I) relate as:

I = Q/t or Q = I * t

In other words:

I * t = C * U

You can draw the conclusions.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on September 20, 2010, 11:39:52 PM

:) To any one who may know the answer to this...

Say I have a large Cap rated at 2.5v @ 55 F, and I charge it at say 2.5v with so many mA's or Amps,
Can I connect a meter to the Cap while charging and look at the meter to show the Cap charging up ???

With the meter reading on Volts, would I be able to tell when the Cap is fully charged by the meter ???

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 21, 2010, 02:04:23 AM

Quote from: freepow on September 20, 2010, 07:22:17 AM
@ Jeanna, What do you mean when you say... Maybe a higher value series inductor will do it.

Hi freepow,
I meant more henries.

Quote
@ All... Does anyone here know if say you had a 2.7v 650F CAP, and you charged it up with mA's or Amps
at only 1v, would the CAP still charge to its full capacity of Amps ,even though you only
charged it to 1volt instead of 2.7v ????

I am pretty sure the amps will be in a kind of proportion and not full charge until you have 2.7volts.
As the charge fills the "plates" of the cap the voltage builds, so the charge (or the stuff that makes amps) will come first and it fills both elements together.

The exception is the voltage spikes.
They do something different, as always!

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: mscoffman on September 21, 2010, 02:56:30 PM

@all

Would a JT Joule Thief improve the Scrunch Lite?

I recently purchased an inexpensive hand rechargeable 3 led flashlight
at Walmart recently like the one at this web link:

http://www.amazon.com/AmerTac-75202M-Scrunch-Lite-Colors/dp/B0037IP5CA

It would be interesting to attach a JT joule thief to it to run the three
white leds and see the change in performance. One could discharge
the battery entirely and pump it for a certain amount of time and track
the voltage decrease on the battery to see if the JT made sense to
improve the performance of this application.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 21, 2010, 05:23:28 PM

(3rd time trying to post this)

Yes, the JT circuit will allow you to run longer and brighter on just 1 battery instead of 3. You could wire the bats in parallel for additional longevity but, you will probably need to remove 2 of them to get the room inside for your circuit.

A really cool thing would be to stuff like a 10 F supercap in there too. A few trigger pulls to charge the cap up and it should run for a bit.

Let us know here how you make out, that sounds like a good, practical project.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on September 22, 2010, 04:47:35 AM

Joule Thiefe flash light with air core for a "used" AAA-battery

I post something very simple and down to earth (nothing special for a change). It is a Joule Thief circuit with an air core (instead of a toroid). The air core allows a high frequency of about 1 MHz.

About every 15 months I get 30 "used" AAA-batteries from my house alarm system. The batteries still show about 0.9 to 1.1 Volt when they are rejected as "low battery" by the window and door sensors.

The "flash light" was designed specially for those "used" batteries and gives many hours of light with a single "used" AAA-battery. When the battery gets weaker a jumper can be set to light fewer than 5 white LEDs.

I admit that one does not need such a flash light very often but it was fun to build it.

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on September 22, 2010, 05:20:21 AM

;) @ conradelektro, Good one ! Great to see people like you and others making use of so called
"dead batteries" when everyone else chucks them away !!!

I'm working on a very nice project for our house, It will take a little while, but when
it is finished, I will post pictures of my nice house project.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: wings on September 22, 2010, 06:25:52 AM

Quote from: freepow on September 22, 2010, 05:20:21 AM
;) @ conradelektro, Good one ! Great to see people like you and others making use of so called
"dead batteries" when everyone else chucks them away !!!

I'm working on a very nice project for our house, It will take a little while, but when
it is finished, I will post pictures of my nice house project.

agree
nice job

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on September 22, 2010, 01:49:01 PM

Good job @conradelektro!

It only seems that its a litle heavy.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 22, 2010, 03:00:01 PM

Conrad:

Nice project and build.

In case you can get them in your neck of the woods, here is a video I made a while back of adding a JT circuit to an led flashlight I bought for like $4.00 US:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XW3ZGjrL0Os (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XW3ZGjrL0Os)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on September 22, 2010, 03:39:56 PM

Good conversion @pirate88179!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 22, 2010, 04:01:19 PM

Jesus:

Thank you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 22, 2010, 10:08:06 PM

Nice one Conrad!
If you stand it on its end and add a shade this could be an emergency lamp or a night-light as a lamp.

@Bill
I was just wanting to watch that again. Thanks.

@Jesus,
Thanks for those excellent close-up pictures.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on September 22, 2010, 11:00:57 PM

Quote from: conradelektro on September 22, 2010, 04:47:35 AM
Joule Thiefe flash light with air core for a "used" AAA-battery

I post something very simple and down to earth (nothing special for a change). It is a Joule Thief circuit with an air core (instead of a toroid). The air core allows a high frequency of about 1 MHz.

About every 15 months I get 30 "used" AAA-batteries from my house alarm system. The batteries still show about 0.9 to 1.1 Volt when they are rejected as "low battery" by the window and door sensors.

The "flash light" was designed specially for those "used" batteries and gives many hours of light with a single "used" AAA-battery. When the battery gets weaker a jumper can be set to light fewer than 5 white LEDs.

I admit that one does not need such a flash light very often but it was fun to build it.

Greetings, Conrad

Conrad

Thats a great little project

:)

The way you chose to allow for a different number of LEDs is great.

My only suggestion would be to see if you can make it smaller.
You might try a coil with the same number of turns but without the tube. ..... If I was doing it I would use the last foot or 2 of wire and go around the loose wraps a dozen or so times to hold everything together.
If it does not work try again with longer wire.
Same thing with if you want higher voltage........ longer wire will help up to a point......after that it stops working.
I find most of my air cores need at least 5 ft of wire for the base side of the primary...... 5 or more ft should work for the emiter side......usually I use 3 to 5 times as much for that side.........for higher voltage.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on September 23, 2010, 07:03:18 AM

Quote from: resonanceman on September 22, 2010, 11:00:57 PM
You might try a coil with the same number of turns but without the tube. ..... If I was doing it I would use the last foot or 2 of wire and go around the loose wraps a dozen or so times to hold everything together.
If it does not work try again with longer wire.

gary

@ Gary (resonanceman): I would like to ask you to explain your suggestion (see the above quote) in other words or with a drawing. It sounds very interesting but I do not understand it (may be because I am not an English speaker).

@ all the nice commenters: the design of the flash light is awkward and the thing is clumsy, one could do much better with a little care and diligence. It is more an experiment than a practical device. Let's call it a retro-flash-light from the Frankenstein era.

I found that a slowly diminishing battery poses a problem when designing a Joule Thief type circuit

My design idea was a secondary and the jumper to light 1 to 5 LEDs according to the remaining power and voltage in a slowly draining AAA battery.

There is huge difference between a JT that gets 1.5 Volt or one that should run on 0.6 Volt. With 1.5 Volt a lot is possible, up to lighting neons or fluorescent lights. But below 1 Volt the world becomes small, because not only the voltage is low but also the amperage that can be drawn from the slowly dying battery has diminished.

Air cores: I always succeed to get high frequencies with air cores (between 100 KHz and several MHz) and I achieve only low frequencies with toroids (6 KHz to 15 KHz).

Secondary winding: for a very low power and low voltage JT (e.g. 0.6 Volt, 0.3 mA, low power red LED) one should not use a secondary. But once sufficient power (at least 20 mA) and enough voltage (at least 1.2 Volt) are available one should use a secondary and the result will be a nice high voltage on the secondary to light many LEDs.

Another idea (see drawing): as long as two AAA batteries are still fairly strong (down to 0.9 Volt) one uses two AAA batteries in parallel, but once the voltage drops below 0.9 Volt, one switches the two AAA batteries to a series connection (with a toggle switch, not automatically).

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on September 23, 2010, 07:51:21 AM

Maybe toggling is the same as swapping.

Check this last year's Composition of a battery swapper.
Both circuits are the same. They change the run battery and the charge battery positions.

Switch to one side uses one battery as runner and the other as charger then they are swapped around.

It was not my idea, I just composed it with somebody elses idea.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on September 23, 2010, 01:27:48 PM

@ Jesus (nievesoliveras):

Thank you for posting the charger circuits, I will try them one day.

Really strange way of switching the transistor and I do not see right away how the second battery can be charged without a diode.

Did you do experiments with this circuit?

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: The Observer on September 23, 2010, 03:59:19 PM

Greetings,

With the posting of the battery swapper I thought it may be relevant to post a new finding of mine.
(I'm sure others have figured this out, I saw something about it somewhere here..)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I lost my Old Walkman a couple weeks ago that contained my 2 AA Rechargeable batteries (1.2 V Energizers).

I have a cheap $1 store radio as backup that needs 2 AAA batteries... but I only had dead ones.

I stuck 2 dead regular 1.5 V AAA batteries in the Energizer Battery recharger.

They charged to 1.9 Volts (drop to 1.7 V after rest) ! And work fine for the day.

Long story short... after about 5 recharges... I think they are holding more and more charge.
and are reacting equally despite the fact that one was originally .4 V and the other .9 V.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They also appear to charge 'pell mell' and do not get significantly warm.

I have tried numerous battery charging/swap experiments with the Joule Thief and my Resonating Audio Transformer setup...
But they were with NiMh 1.2 V batteries.
One has to wonder what would happen with regular batteries now.

I thought I saw it mentioned that they need to be 'trained' a bit.
Meaning.. they need to be charged a few times before they start to work right.
This may be true.

Best Regards,
The Observer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on September 23, 2010, 04:01:28 PM

Quote from: conradelektro on September 23, 2010, 07:03:18 AM

@ Gary (resonanceman): I would like to ask you to explain your suggestion (see the above quote) in other words or with a drawing. It sounds very interesting but I do not understand it (may be because I am not an English speaker).

@ all the nice commenters: the design of the flash light is awkward and the thing is clumsy, one could do much better with a little care and diligence. It is more an experiment than a practical device. Let's call it a retro-flash-light from the Frankenstein era.

I found that a slowly diminishing battery poses a problem when designing a Joule Thief type circuit

My design idea was a secondary and the jumper to light 1 to 5 LEDs according to the remaining power and voltage in a slowly draining AAA battery.

There is huge difference between a JT that gets 1.5 Volt or one that should run on 0.6 Volt. With 1.5 Volt a lot is possible, up to lighting neons or fluorescent lights. But below 1 Volt the world becomes small, because not only the voltage is low but also the amperage that can be drawn from the slowly dying battery has diminished.

Air cores: I always succeed to get high frequencies with air cores (between 100 KHz and several MHz) and I achieve only low frequencies with toroids (6 KHz to 15 KHz).

Secondary winding: for a very low power and low voltage JT (e.g. 0.6 Volt, 0.3 mA, low power red LED) one should not use a secondary. But once sufficient power (at least 20 mA) and enough voltage (at least 1.2 Volt) are available one should use a secondary and the result will be a nice high voltage on the secondary to light many LEDs.

Another idea (see drawing): as long as two AAA batteries are still fairly strong (down to 0.9 Volt) one uses two AAA batteries in parallel, but once the voltage drops below 0.9 Volt, one switches the two AAA batteries to a series connection (with a toggle switch, not automatically).

Greetings, Conrad

Conrad

The whole point I was trying to make is that the paper tube that you wound your coil on is probably not needed.
If you eliminate the paper tube you can make your unit much smaller .

Yesterday I was working on a bigger air core coil.
It did not work out well. I was shooting for something along the lines of a Jeanna light . At least 450 V and some power to back it up.
I ended up with lots of voltage but no power.
Probably problems with the primary....my base primary was only 5 ft.
I was trying to decide how to go about fixing it when I remembered your jumper setup ........ Then I remembered a coil I made years ago. ........this coil had 10 taps ........It was intended to help me test for how different impedances affected the circuits I was playing with at the time.
After a while I found that I could pick any 3 of the 10 taps .... then put the battery + on the middle one and use the other 2 for the JT coil connections.
Then I decided to make a test primary wire....... I twisted a piece of mag wire together every 5 ft to make my taps. ( first picture )

I numbered all the taps.......20 of them
I then wound the whole thing around my coil.
The result is the second picture.
All i have to do now is sand the varnish off the taps I want to use and connect them with alligator clips to my transistor,.

At 100 ft this primary is probably overkill.......but...... if this coil works out pretty well I will replace this primary with a perminant primary and try a bigger coil.

I was thinking about your project.......if you want maximum versatility you might try adding some taps and one of those jumper things to your coil..... different input voltages need different primary lengths.....also....... with or without a secondary changes things.......without a secondary a longer Emiter leg on the primary to maximize voltage.

Back to my test primary.
I think I will start by connecting my base to tap 1 battery + to tap 10 and emitter to tap 20.......using all 100 ft of my primary.
I will see where this puts me...... I will then try moving the battery + closer and closer to tap 1 ........when the power starts to drop off the base leg is to short.
Then I will start shortening the emitter leg one tap at a time until I get the best output I can get.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on September 23, 2010, 05:06:18 PM

Quote from: conradelektro on September 23, 2010, 01:27:48 PM
@ Jesus (nievesoliveras):
...
Really strange way of switching the transistor and I do not see right away how the second battery can be charged without a diode.
...
Greetings, Conrad

The Led is a diode. But if it does not work with your circuit, just change it for a regular diode.

Almost all the electronic parts that I was originally using, adquired a blue moss when I left them aside for a long time. That blue thing corrodes the connections and the parts are useless now.

I am waiting for some controllers I sent for.

@resomamceman
Good air coil. Just it looks a litle strange.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 23, 2010, 05:28:44 PM

Gary:

For what it is worth, on my replication of the Jeanna circuit, I used only 4 turns on the primary as did Lidmotor. I know I had 330 turns, give or take, on the secondary but I can't remember how many on the collector coil...I think it was like 6 or 8 maybe.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on September 23, 2010, 05:46:44 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras

@resomamceman
Good air coil. Just it looks a litle strange.

Jesus

Jesus

Yes it looks pretty strange now....... once I find out what length of primary I need I will replace the big primary with all the taps and it will look alot more normal.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on September 23, 2010, 09:26:40 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on September 23, 2010, 05:28:44 PM
Gary:

For what it is worth, on my replication of the Jeanna circuit, I used only 4 turns on the primary as did Lidmotor. I know I had 330 turns, give or take, on the secondary but I can't remember how many on the collector coil...I think it was like 6 or 8 maybe.

Bill

Bill

Yes that sounds right.

I am trying to use an air core where you used a big toroid.,......it is going to take a little more wire.
This kind of coil seems similar to my LM coils in many ways.......If I remember right the LMs took about 8 wraps bifilar

anyway......time will tell if it is going to work.

I have been working on other things most of the day.,,,,,,, testing time is coming up soon

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on September 24, 2010, 12:51:07 AM

Quote from: resonanceman on September 23, 2010, 09:26:40 PM
Bill

Yes that sounds right.

I am trying to use an air core where you used a big toroid.,......it is going to take a little more wire.
This kind of coil seems similar to my LM coils in many ways.......If I remember right the LMs took about 8 wraps bifilar

anyway......time will tell if it is going to work.

I have been working on other things most of the day.,,,,,,, testing time is coming up soon

gary

After a few hours of playing around with my air core coil I have decided it is just not going to get me where I want to go.
My best results were 15 ft for base and 35 ft for emiter.
The power was low enough it is just not worth the effort .... I can get better results with many other means.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on September 24, 2010, 01:52:15 AM

@ All, I know this is a little off topic here but if I had a solar panel producing very low volts
at high Amps 10+, would normal thin insulated wire work ????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 24, 2010, 01:55:14 AM

I believe it would. But, check other opinions here as well.

Bil

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on September 24, 2010, 02:01:38 AM

:) Thanks, just one more question... I will be getting a small digital panelmeter that measures 0-20v,
Now if I have a solar panel that puts out 3v at 8-20 Amps, would the meter be alright with
Amps like that ????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on September 24, 2010, 04:09:49 AM

Hi folks, I posted this at other site also but no response. I picked up a few various ferrite toroids and I was wondering what jeanna or lidmotor or anyone else used to cover the toroids to protect the magnet wire. As shown in my pic, i used masking tape since it's fairly thin. Reason i ask is, because i unwound a small toroid yesterday and found that the insulation was scraped off at every point where the wire made the sharp turns on the toroid. I plan to use a 30 gauge secondary on the one shown with masking tape and try something with those larger bead type cores, going to try and light a fluorescent, though might not happen with such small cores. Anyway, thanks for all the experiments you've shared jeanna and lidmotor and all the others.

peace love light
Tyson

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on September 24, 2010, 04:16:38 AM

Oh and I just put a 6 turn base and 12 turn collector JT on the 1" diameter toroid shown with the tape on it, 26awg. and it works very well, easily lights 8 leds to full brightness I would say, because it is painful to look at. My amp meter shows 180 milliamps at 1.25 volts AA nimh. I intend to wind a 30 gauge secondary and see what it can power, maybe a fuoro, i hope.
peace love light
Tyson

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on September 24, 2010, 04:21:06 AM

@ Gary (resonanceman):

Thank you for explaining your air coil ideas. It looks really simple to build and I guess that such a coil works well for a "low voltage" Joule Thief (just a few LEDs over collector - emitter with no secondary, or only a few LEDs on a secondary).

In order to get high voltage from a Joule Thief (1000 Volts and more) one needs a BIG AIR COIL according to my experiments.

By BIG I mean at least 75 mm diameter and very high like 360 mm (about 1000 turns of thin wire for the secondary),

or 250 mm diameter and 100 mm high (250 turns of thin wire for the secondary).

The bifilar primary (wound over one end of the secondary) should have about 15 turns. And it is also o.k. to wind the two primaries apart as two separate coils. It had little influence to use a different number of turns for the primaries (if one uses a huge secondary). Too few windings for the bifilar primary are as bad as too many. I plan to go into a pancake type primary in my next experiments.

If one wants high voltage from a JT a good toroid (at least 40 mm diameter) is a simple and space saving solution. And I saw that people used fly back transformers with success. If one goes into air coils and high voltage a lot of space is necessary.

But for low voltage JTs without a secondary (only a few LEDs) one can wind very small and crude air coils like Gary does. Just wind 40 turns bifilar over your finger (can have multiple layers), fix this thing with tape and you have a coil for a JT. I think it was Gary who showed that even a tangle of wire also works or a twisted pair of wires.

As I said so often, air coils allow high frequency in a Joule Thief (1 MHz and more) and this is why I am so interested in them.

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on September 24, 2010, 08:07:08 AM

Quote from: jeanna on September 20, 2010, 01:29:28 AM
@Artic Knight
NOT a choke... OK?
The joule thief uses a high permeability toroid. the highest permeability you can find.
Type W is what you want.
I wasted $35 on a minimum order of chokes that wouldn't even turn the circuit on.
Maybe this can save you some trouble.

thank you,

jeanna

jenna actually i started with a choke. it works but very poorly. in short your milliamps will be much higher then with a good ferrite but it works :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on September 24, 2010, 10:14:56 AM

Quote from: freepow on September 24, 2010, 01:52:15 AM
@ All, I know this is a little off topic here but if I had a solar panel producing very low volts
at high Amps 10+, would normal thin insulated wire work ????

be careful with large amps and small wire, it can over heat the wire and burn it out. but considering your at a low voltage it might be ok depending on the diameter of the wire.

power companies step up the voltage for 2 reasons 1) high voltage low amps travels better with fewer losses over long distances 2) smaller wires can be used with less amperage traveling over the wires thus saving on costs of materials

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on September 24, 2010, 10:17:18 AM

Quote from: freepow on September 24, 2010, 02:01:38 AM
:) Thanks, just one more question... I will be getting a small digital panelmeter that measures 0-20v,
Now if I have a solar panel that puts out 3v at 8-20 Amps, would the meter be alright with
Amps like that ????

reading volts it should be fine but if its also a amp meter make sure you do not exceed the rated amps for reading. otherwise you will either blow a fuse or fry the meter.

when the volt meter is set to read volts it does not pass amps through it. however when its set to read amps it has to be placed into the circuit IE power goes through it and thats when you risk blowing it. of course if its rated for 20 volts and you send a 1kv surge through it that could fry it too :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 24, 2010, 02:01:15 PM

My Mom is old and is having memory problems. She has been unlocking her door at night thinking it was unlocked when it was already locked.

So, I made this small JT circuit with a proximity sensor to show her in the dark if the door was locked or not. She can see it from where she sleeps and the red led indicates that the door is locked. Seems to be working so far for her.

This is the basic JT circuit with the 2N3904 and a ferrite bead instead of a toroid. Sorry about the photo of the interior being blurred, have no idea why that happened.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on September 24, 2010, 03:36:42 PM

@ Bill (Pirate88179):

I like the reed switch idea.

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 24, 2010, 03:43:49 PM

Conrad:

Thanks. It was the only thing I could find locally that would work. It is the switch part of one of those security sensors they put on doors in sets.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on September 24, 2010, 04:15:47 PM

@ Bill,
Well done Bill, at last another really useful and practical use for the JT circuit. This is helping someone to recognise enhance their security and ensuring your peace of mind... top man. M

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 24, 2010, 09:17:00 PM

crowclaw:

Thank you very much. I too love practical everyday uses for this circuit. I am sure there are many more out there waiting to be thought of and made.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on September 24, 2010, 10:13:45 PM

Hi folks, nice proximity device pirate. Though I was wondering if anyone read my previous post about what to put on the ferrite toroids to prevent wire insulation scraping off, just wondering if there is a better solution than masking tape, although someone in other forum said some kind of spray on stuff, though not sure how effective spraying something on would be. Thanks.
peace love light
Tyson :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 24, 2010, 10:21:52 PM

Tyson:

I have never used anything to cover the toroids before winding and have never had a problem....well not as of yet anyway. The only time I use magnet wire is for the secondary windings, everything else I used insulated wire. All of my basic JT's use 22 ga. insulated wire.

Thanks for the compliment.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on September 25, 2010, 02:03:13 AM

captain bill
very nice setup

skywatch123
if i have a toroid with smooth edges i spray clear coat paint on them
if they have sharp edges i use electric tape (cheap-o- tape) its thinner

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on September 25, 2010, 04:10:31 AM

Hi pirate, thanks for the info. Hi kooler, thanks for the info., though I think ill stick with masking tape since its thin and can be pressed down around the curves well, though electrical tape would be fine on a bigger toroid im sure. thanks. Here is a pic of my toroid JT with first layer of secondary wound, 26 gauge 6T base, 12T collector, 30 gauge secondary. My intention is to try and light a fluoro with this, do you folks think i should add a few more layers, since I think it would need it. Your replies greatly appreciated, thanks.
peace love light
Tyson

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on September 25, 2010, 04:12:57 AM

oh and the secondary first layer is around 120 turns so far.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on September 25, 2010, 07:13:35 AM

Hi guys today I noticed that on my JT the neon lights half of it.It's giving high voltage DC. Is it possible to extract AC from JT maybe have to do secondary?
Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on September 25, 2010, 01:03:14 PM

Quote from: SkyWatcher123 on September 24, 2010, 10:13:45 PM
Hi folks, nice proximity device pirate. Though I was wondering if anyone read my previous post about what to put on the ferrite toroids to prevent wire insulation scraping off, just wondering if there is a better solution than masking tape, although someone in other forum said some kind of spray on stuff, though not sure how effective spraying something on would be. Thanks.
peace love light
Tyson :)

Tyson

Most of my coils lately are what I call candy cane coils....I use normal insulated wire for most of them because the wire goes through
more abuse when winding them.
I have been thinking of trying a good coat of spray paint on the toroids to even things out ......then maybe magnet wire would be practical for my coils.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on September 25, 2010, 09:06:23 PM

Hi folks, Hi resonanceman, thanks for your thoughts about coating the toroids. Though what I've found now and for anyone else making these things, is that electrical tape is pretty good when its stretched tight over the toroid so its thinner and it tends to stick better than masking tape and electrical tape sticks better to copper when used to wrap coil layers. I've wound 2 30 gauge layers already for my secondary, going to try and fit a third layer on it, though I think I made my coil threading rod with a little too much wire to start with, will see. As i said i hope to light a fluoro, anyone else light a fluoro with such a small ferrite toroid core like this, though i have no idea the permeability numbers as it came from a surplus shop.
peace love light
Tyson

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 25, 2010, 09:38:59 PM

Tyson:

I believe Jeanna has.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on September 26, 2010, 01:03:40 AM

@all
i was bored went thru some of my notes and found this..
the only thing i forgot to add to the schematic this time was the 104 cap on the battery..
man not being able to go to my under ground lab sux.. so here is some old stuff..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3PEAqdpi-E (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3PEAqdpi-E)

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on September 26, 2010, 02:57:17 AM

Hi pirate, thanks for the info about jeanna, do you happen to know or have a link to where i could read where she did that, thanks. Hi kooler, thanks for sharing that video, ill be giving that circuit a try after i test this one. What gauge wires did you use for the base and collector and secondary, also where can i get that type of insulated wire, it almost looks like phone wire. Also, i notice on the top of the schematic, the right diode is not connected to anything, is that correct, I appreciate any help to replicate your setup, thanks. Also, i finished winding the third secondary pickup layer on my toroid and its getting tight, so that's all I'll wind, time to fire it up.
peace love light
Tyson :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 26, 2010, 03:24:47 AM

Tyson:

PM Jeana, I am sure she will be happy to give you the particulars.

When the large toroids were scarce, and they still are, she set out to prove that we did not need them...and she did.

Myself? I am done with floro tubes and cfls. Leds is the way to go. No mercury and way more light for less mA's.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on September 26, 2010, 04:58:14 AM

Hi Pirate, thank you very much for the pep talk, those are actually my feelings as well, leds are much more benign to nature. Though just for my knowledge sake, i know you replicated a jeanna light, it was a good video you made, what gauge base and collector did you use and secondary wire gauge. I fired mine up and could not light any fluoro's, i then reduced the 26 gauge base to 4T and reduced the collector to 6T and still no go, though i did light up my 30 string of christmas leds to probably half brightness. Your help appreciated, thanks.
peace love light
Tyson ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on September 26, 2010, 09:34:57 AM

Quote from: SkyWatcher123 on September 26, 2010, 02:57:17 AM
kooler, thanks for sharing that video, ill be giving that circuit a try after i test this one. What gauge wires did you use for the base and collector and secondary, also where can i get that type of insulated wire, it almost looks like phone wire. Also, i notice on the top of the schematic, the right diode is not connected to anything, is that correct, Tyson :)

sorry the diode on the right is connected but it got cut somewere in the tinycad ..
i am using phone wire.. (cheap).. haha

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on September 26, 2010, 09:37:27 AM

Hi kooler, I've built the circuit shown in your video, using a 2n2222 and 24 gauge wire. Though i could only get the led to light by putting the led with anode towards the collector and it didnt seem to make a difference if the cap was in or not. The led is probably half brightness. Also i had to use a 150 ohm base resistor to get the led to light, not sure what i'm doing incorrect, though maybe you can help ,thanks.
peace love light
Tyson

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 26, 2010, 02:19:18 PM

Quote from: SkyWatcher123 on September 26, 2010, 04:58:14 AM
Hi Pirate, thank you very much for the pep talk, those are actually my feelings as well, leds are much more benign to nature. Though just for my knowledge sake, i know you replicated a jeanna light, it was a good video you made, what gauge base and collector did you use and secondary wire gauge. I fired mine up and could not light any fluoro's, i then reduced the 26 gauge base to 4T and reduced the collector to 6T and still no go, though i did light up my 30 string of christmas leds to probably half brightness. Your help appreciated, thanks.
peace love light
Tyson ;)

Tyson:

Thanks.

I am pasting this here from my video description because I could not remember exactly what I had used:

"This is my replication of Lidmotor's Jeanna Light using Jeanna's large toroid Joule thief design and Lidmotor's circuit. This circuit puts out between 1,200-2,000 volts! I do not have an exact measurement yet. (I am afraid of frying my measuring equipment!) This uses two 3-3/8"OD ferrite toroids, TIP 3055 transistor, 20 ohm rheostat, 15 turn variable 1k resistor, and 28 ga. magnet wire for the secondary and pick-up coils. I used solid copper 22 ga. wire for the primary. The cfl is a 40 watt equivalent rated at 9 watts. In the video, I am running from a 1.4 volt C cell but, I have run this on an AAA and an AA and a D cell as well using my magnetic universal battery holder idea. For more information, go to overunity.com in the joule thief topics area. This is a lot of light and it lasts a long time and you can use dead batteries that others would have tossed out to power this. More to come using this circuit. Please use caution if replicating this, or any other high voltage output circuit. If you don't know what you are doing, get someone who does to help you or don't do it. (Legal Disclaimer)

Thank you for watching."

I hope this helps. In the video I believe I give the number of turns on each...I think.

Bill

***EDIT***

Tuning is very important on this circuit, or at least it was for me. The difference of not being on, to being on, to being very bright and then to being off was not a lot of movement on my vr at all. I also ended up placing a very strong neo on the toroid to raise the frequency high enough that I could not hear that squeal...somewhere above 20,000 Hz.

Title: Neon lighting
Post by: guruji on September 26, 2010, 04:12:02 PM

Did anyone lit a neon bulb in AC current with a JT ?
Any response there?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 26, 2010, 04:36:37 PM

Yes, Xee2 did many pages back, I do not recall where exactly.

At first he had only one side of the neo lit but then had both side glowing nicely.

Bill

Title: Re: Neon lighting
Post by: kooler on September 26, 2010, 05:22:58 PM

Quote from: guruji on September 26, 2010, 04:12:02 PM
Did anyone lit a neon bulb in AC current with a JT ?
Any response there?

xee2 circuit

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on September 26, 2010, 07:43:53 PM

Hi folks, Hi pirate, thanks for the info. maybe i need to try a little thicker wire for the primary coils, will see. Hi kooler, thanks for your input, though i hooked up that other diode and still the same. Are you sure your led off the transistors collector is oriented as you show in the video, at any rate, I'm only getting half brightness. Also, you said your base resistance is at around 48kohms and mine has to be 150 ohms just light the led, any ideas what i may be doing different from your circuit. Thanks.
peace love light
Tyson

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on September 26, 2010, 07:52:17 PM

Quote from: SkyWatcher123 on September 26, 2010, 07:43:53 PM
Hi folks, Hi pirate, thanks for the info. maybe i need to try a little thicker wire for the primary coils, will see. Hi kooler, thanks for your input, though i hooked up that other diode and still the same. Are you sure your led off the transistors collector is oriented as you show in the video, at any rate, I'm only getting half brightness. Also, you said your base resistance is at around 48kohms and mine has to be 150 ohms just light the led, any ideas what i may be doing different from your circuit. Thanks.
peace love light
Tyson

the diodes at the secondary aren't needed..
the way the ground is hooked up to the secondary is important..
plus the transistor your using the 2n2222.. i never had any luck with them.. or the 2n3904..
i can get the tip31c to perform better than a 2222..
but i .like the mpsa06 it tough..haha
my won't run this low without the cap across the pot or resistor..
good luck

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on September 27, 2010, 05:14:16 AM

Thanks Kooler for response. I think still I would stick to the other DC circuits then cause it seems they're more efficient in consumption especially yours.
Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on September 28, 2010, 07:11:57 AM

:) Hello, Can someone help me with this Light dependent resistor circuit.
Not sure if these circuits are connected the correct way ?

Its a moonlight night and the volts coming through the LDS is say 0.12v
In very overcast day the volts coming through the LDS will be say 1.2v
Lets say its a moonlight night at the present !

Left Circuit needs at least 0.7v for transistor to turn on and start charging the 55F Cap,
but there is only 0.12v coming through which means the Cap is not charging, but soon as
the very overcast day comes the volts coming through will be 1.2v, which means the
transistor will turn on and start charging the Cap, correct ?????

Right Circuit has 0.12v coming through, which means that very low voltage of 0.12v
will be leaking out of the battery and charging the Cap with just 0.12v, but if instead
of the Cap we put a LED in its place, would the 0.12v still get used out of battery or
would it not because the LED needs more than 0.12v to light up ?????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on September 28, 2010, 07:50:10 AM

Quote from: freepow on September 28, 2010, 07:11:57 AM
:) Hello, Can someone help me with this Light dependent resistor circuit.
Not sure if these circuits are connected the correct way ?

Its a moonlight night and the volts coming through the LDS is say 0.12v
In very overcast day the volts coming through the LDS will be say 1.2v
Lets say its a moonlight night at the present !

Left Circuit needs at least 0.7v for transistor to turn on and start charging the 55F Cap,
but there is only 0.12v coming through which means the Cap is not charging, but soon as
the very overcast day comes the volts coming through will be 1.2v, which means the
transistor will turn on and start charging the Cap, correct ?????

Right Circuit has 0.12v coming through, which means that very low voltage of 0.12v
will be leaking out of the battery and charging the Cap with just 0.12v, but if instead
of the Cap we put a LED in its place, would the 0.12v still get used out of battery or
would it not because the LED needs more than 0.12v to light up ?????

The light dependent switch will not allow current to pass if there is not enough light to help it to get to its working point. So changing the cap for a Led will not help much if any.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on September 28, 2010, 06:15:30 PM

freepow

have you tried this to see if it works

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on September 28, 2010, 06:40:57 PM

Hi folks, Thought I'd share my conversion of this 12 led lantern that is normally powered by 4 D cell batteries, as shown in one of the pics, I'm using 1 AA and it lights to just about full brightness relative to using 4 D cells. Last night I used a dead AA non rechargeable and it stayed lit at same brightness for about 4 hours, so a fresh AA would last much longer. A rechargeable AA cell works well also, have yet to run duration test on AA rechargeable yet. Here are a few pics of it.
peace love light
Tyson :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 28, 2010, 07:07:48 PM

Quote from: SkyWatcher123 on September 26, 2010, 02:57:17 AM
Hi pirate, thanks for the info about jeanna, do you happen to know or have a link to where i could read where she did that, thanks. ...
peace love light
Tyson :)

Hi Tyson,

I have been away. I am sorry I didn't respond earlier.
Bill is correct, I did try a smaller toroid and did prove it could light a cfl... AND, I am really just using those cfl's to prove the ability of the circuit, because leds are way better, meaning more light from less time and trouble and expensive toroids.

I made one that uses a 1 inch toroid, whose interior space was big enough that I could add a lot of turns.

Also, btw,
You will not get a fluro tube or cfl to light unless you use a robust transistor like the TIP31 or 3055. the 2N2222 or 2n3904 just cannot ramp the volts high enough. (The Tip's take more amps draw and this may be the reason.)

So, this pic was taken on dec 20 2009 and the post will be from around that time.
The details will be there.

I also have found that it is quite possible to choke the coil with too many turns; or with the secondary turns wound too close to the primary.
I used a piece of string and tied it like a loop of wire right next to the primary wires. This allowed me to wind the secondary to the end and not worry about touching the primary. It helped. Sometimes I needed 2 or 3 turns of the string to keep the secondary clear of the primary.

I hope this helps.

jeanna

edit...PS
Nice job with the lantern!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 28, 2010, 07:22:47 PM

Tyson:

Excellent conversion of the lantern with the JT circuit. Isn't this fun? I am always looking around to see what else can be converted.

Nice work.

Jeanna:

Nice to see you back. We have missed you. I knew you lit the floro with the small toroid I just could not find it here. You should post a schematic of that if you can. That is a powerful little toroid/circuit there. I'll bet that can light many strings of leds too.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on September 28, 2010, 09:28:21 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on September 28, 2010, 07:22:47 PM
...
You should post a schematic of that if you can. That is a powerful little toroid/circuit there. I'll bet that can light many strings of leds too.

Bill

Hi Bill,
Thanks,
Yes, it does drive a lot of leds.
I think the 2 elements that are most important are the high permeability of the toroid, which happens to be a toroid with enough room inside for plenty of turns,
and,
the TIP31 transistor.

This same toroid is the one I have used for many of the recent plant battery driven joule thief circuits and galvanic battery joule thief circuits.

There is nothing MORE magical about this particular circuit.
It is a joule thief circuit with secondary just like the jeanna's light, but with a smaller toroid.
From looking at the picture I don't even see a capacitor in parallel with the battery leads, which is something I usually need to add to light a fluro tube.

So, it might be a
TIP31 or TIP3055
a 1k pot
a toroid with 2T,9T and um... maybe 80T or um 160T secondary (but these numbers are specific to the toroid)
a magnet to help the tube start up
7w fl tube

I remember it took down a 750mAH AAA in about 3 hours, so it probably used about 150-200mA which is high but what those robust transistors can take.

I guess the point is that when using the joule thief circuit as a pulse generator to a secondary circuit as this style is, there is a lot that can be done.

----
On another joule thief subject,
I was in the camper over the weekend and the first ever jtc with secondary "build" I made (Newman's HOT is what I called it) stopped working. I checked the lithium AAA battery and it was down to 0.58v.

So,
1-that transistor was willing to work at a very low voltage. and
2- The battery lasted a really long time.
I think that was the first battery I had put in there when I decided to actually use it about 1 1/2 years ago.
I would guess that it was on from 20 minutes to 3 hours a day.

-----

And still another subject
The color thing.
I picked up a car light that has 5 yellow/orange leds in series.
I snapped 2 dead 9volt batteries together and turned this light on.
I taped it as a spot and directed it toward my lap.
It made a very good color when added to the 24 leds light I had also directed to my lap.
I was able to comfortably read for 3 hours with no eye fatigue.

I think this is interesting and I know Jim said it a few years ago, and I wanted to add my experience.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on September 29, 2010, 12:46:26 AM

Hi folks, Hi pirate, thanks for the compliments, the little modification turned out rather well. Though I can only guess that the 12 led lantern is wired in parallel/series, my guess is two sets of 6 leds in parallel and then these two parallel sets are placed in series, since 4 D cells make around 6 volts. I could make a new toroid with secondary to squeeze out a little more brightness, although it's plenty adequate in the standard JT emitter/collector output position. Hi jeanna, thanks for compliments and the valuable information about the 1" dia. toroid running the fuor. light, very much appreciated and all the work you and others have done. I have many other ideas sloshing around in mind about uses for these circuits and such, thanks to those sharing their experiments here, very grateful.
peace love light
Tyson ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on September 29, 2010, 10:21:57 PM

@ Pirate, Jeanna, and all:
I'm building several JT circuits now, and I also think that the small toroid (1") is a very practical size, especially if they can be made to output enough to light the CFLs or many Leds.
I've made a bifilar (1") toroid 78 turn, 28 gauge, that I'm using. It's running off of two regular AA's and charging another set of two AA batteries. Which I've been switching manually back and forth every day, or so, but I'll install a switch soon.
I notice that once the AAs are conditioned by the radiant pulses, the JT does not like the regular new batteries and will not light the leds, at times, until I replace them with the radiant charged ones. I've had thr small toroid circuit light all the leds that I have now, which is 25. But it will not light a gutted CFL. It has been a great night light, and has been running 24/7 while lighting the leds and charging. Already there are leds lit all over my house, as I like lower light levels especially late at night. I really like dimmers, and the JT can use them, unlike the way the 110 volt led lights come when you buy them.
I also have a 16 Led Emergency Back-up Light that runs on 110v, and charges a big capacitor that comes inside of it. It is supposed to last 5- 6 hours of backup light once charged, but it's only lasting about 2 hours. So, I'm going to adapt a small toroid (from inside a CFL), and install it inside of that back-up light, along with the 2n2222 transistor and resister, to see how much longer it will last. The 16 leds light give off a fair amount of light, and I'm planning on running my whole house off the high powered 12 volt leds JT.
Bill, thanks for the tip on the 100 10mm super bright leds for $11 on Ebay. They seam to be the cheapest best deal out there. There are also several 12 volt multi led light sets that can be used with the bigger JT. Can wait to try some of those lights also.
I've been having a great time working with the different JT circuits, and can't wait to see what more can be done with them, and just how far this simple technology can be taken.
Thanks to all, for your very helpful explanations on these projects.
NickZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: The Observer on September 30, 2010, 11:38:47 AM

Say Jeanna,

You recently stated...

QuoteI think the 2 elements that are most important are the high permeability of the toroid,
which happens to be a toroid with enough room inside for plenty of turns,
and, the TIP31 transistor.

I am concerned with the 'high permeability of the toroid'.

I have stressed from day 1 here (3 years ago) that I believe Ferromagnetic Materials are a legitimate source of OU,
The reason being unpaired electrons that create "free" magnetic fields that can be used and or manipulated.
I appreciate the experiments here.. but I have found few if any that want to talk about the science. (of Ferromagnetics)

Pirate claims that at least some of the cores you guys are using,
for impressive feats like lighting a CFL for an appreciable period,
are Not Ferromagnetic.

This assertion has me beside myself (if true, then I have no idea how the CFL is lighting for that long).
So I need to ask you a simple question.

"Have you lit a CFL for an appreciable time without using a 'good' Ferromagnetic Core in your JT setup?"

Thanks in advance for you advisement.

Best Regards,
The Observer

P.S. By 'good' Ferromagnetic Core I mean...
a Core of High Magnetic Permeability (Very High Internal Magnetic Moment)
of Low Coercivity (which means the dipoles spin easily)
and virtually nil Magnetic Remanence (dipoles and domains turn to random directions after magnetization.).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 30, 2010, 12:40:49 PM

Observer:

http://www.spherotech.com/fer_par.htm (http://www.spherotech.com/fer_par.htm)

Partially quoted below:

"Unlike paramagnetic particles that are made using iron oxide, SPHEROâ,,¢ Ferromagnetic Particles are prepared using chromium dioxide coated onto uniform polystyrene particles. These particles retain magnetism once exposed to a magnetic field. The particles can be demagnetized and re-magnetized repeatedly and reproducibly. "

As I have been saying all along, ferrite IS iron oxide. All the definitions of ferromagnetic materials I can find on line all list metals like iron, nickel and cobalt. Again, these are metals, ferrite is a ceramic. Totally different structure.

I hope this helps.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: The Observer on September 30, 2010, 03:02:32 PM

Bill,

I'd like to know what Jeanna thinks,

What I would like to know from you.. is if you think your core is covered in the following book.

Best Regards,
The Observer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on September 30, 2010, 06:36:47 PM

i know this isn't the right place for this link but you guys always talk about boost caps

goldmine has 3000 f boost caps for 30$

http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G17930 (http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G17930)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 30, 2010, 08:16:05 PM

Robbie:

I just got notice of that in my e-mail and I was going to post it here as well.

Here are the details....I paid about twice that for my 650F cap! This is a great deal everyone.

Bill

PS Robbie, this is exactly the right place for this link. Thanks.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 30, 2010, 08:19:15 PM

Quote from: The Observer on September 30, 2010, 03:02:32 PM
Bill,

I'd like to know what Jeanna thinks,

What I would like to know from you.. is if you think your core is covered in the following book.

Best Regards,
The Observer

OK. It says metallic and ceramic. I have never seen that term used for the ceramic materials before. This is something new to me. I will look into this more when I get a chance. As in my earlier post, the ceramic version, ferrite, is paramagnetic in that it does not hold a residual magnetic field like the metals do which is why it is so good for back emf and other uses. You can put a strong neo on ferrite for months and it will not retain the field after the neo is removed. As you know, do that with iron, etc. it will become magnetized.

Bill

***EDIT*** Here is a link to a video showing that an air core has higher output than other cores tested:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Juk6JHCuIY4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Juk6JHCuIY4)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: The Observer on October 01, 2010, 12:22:58 AM

Pirate,

Thank you.

The point is that ...

Without a 'good' Ferromagnetic Core
(utilizing the Magnetic Field produced by the infinite current of trillions of electrons)
an impressive Joule Thief won't work.

I believe you now agree.

Best Regards,
The Observer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 01, 2010, 01:15:44 AM

No, I do not agree. Not at all. did you not see the aircore video link I posted? Folks are lighting cfl's from aircores for many, many hours....no ferromagnetic anything.

The link I posted showed that the aircore had a higher output than ferrite, or iron, or any other core tested.

Did you not see this?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: ALVARO_CS on October 01, 2010, 05:57:39 AM

Quote from: The Observer on October 01, 2010, 12:22:58 AM
Pirate,

Thank you.

The point is that ...

Without a 'good' Ferromagnetic Core
(utilizing the Magnetic Field produced by the infinite current of trillions of electrons)
an impressive Joule Thief won't work.

I believe you now agree.

Best Regards,
The Observer

may you please specify what an "impressive" Joule Thief is ?(under your point of view)
I have read very attentively your assertions at the Tseung thread, and try to learn as much as I can (from you as well as from all others). My experiments with joule thiefs are oriented in the properties of air cores in which no ferromagnetic domains involved.
Regards
Alvaro
P.S. please forgive my poor English.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: The Observer on October 01, 2010, 11:36:46 AM

Alvaro,

Thanks for the note.
I appreciate that there is at least one person out there
considering the effects that freely rotating Magnetic Dipoles might have.

Most people don't realize that a ferromagnetic core AMPLIFIES the field of a core by 1000's of times,
without using any extra current.
Of course this is what happens when previously randomly oriented Atomic Magnetic Dipoles
All Line up with a weak external field and ADD to the weak field about 50,000 times.

Note... the interesting spike of a JT does not come from the input..
it comes when the input is shut down (no external magnetic field)
and the Dipoles flip back to random Pell Mell by means of quantum energy.

So.. when I say impressive Joule Thief, I mean

A Joule Thief (or Blocking Oscillator) that can light a 13 W CFL
for an appreciable time.
What ever the gadgetmall record is.
Like 10 hours?

Best Regards,
The Observer

P.S. I do believe that an air core could do the trick.
However, you would need to use the only other phenomenon that I claim is OU.
That is RESONANCE.
If you Resonated a High Voltage Air Core (tesla coil) then I believe it would probably work.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: The Observer on October 01, 2010, 11:45:39 AM

Pirate,

Oops.. I did not see your post.

I apologize.. I did not check out the video as I do know an air core will light Leds.
I was not aware that there were CFLs in the video.

I need to get to work right now... I will check it later (before I go on with my assertions).

Are they resonating these air coils to accomplish the feat?

Best Regards,
The Observer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on October 01, 2010, 12:42:55 PM

@ All:
What if any is the advantage of using a capacitor instead of batteries. Yes, they work, but, do they last longer, work better, cost less etz...?
And has anybody found a way to charge the Run battery, dirrectly yet, without having to swap and use a second charge battery? Or use a switch. Just using the One Battery to run and charge itself. I think that it has been done, possibly by Lidmotor, (or someone else).
I just built a coil for my JT using a 2 inch circular ceramic magnet (thin round magnet) similar to the speaker magnets but thinner. I could not notice any beneficial effect of power over a smaller 1" ferrite toroid. It did have a metal shield on one side. I didn't try it by taking the shield off. since iron can help induction by 5000 times. I don't see any advantage yet.
How many volts does a JT primary need to output, to produce the higher volts (like 1000v, or 10.000v) when a secondary is attached. I see little or no induction output in a secondary using the 2n2222 transistor.
Also, how is it possible that a BJT producing only 4 or 5 volts can light up Many 3 v Leds, in my case 25 Leds, possibly many more. 25 Leds times 3 volts is 75 volts worth, from 4 volts using two AAs. Even if it can light 100 Leds, would they produce more actual light, than when using only 25 Leds?
What can a JT do running the new higher powered 12 volt Leds lights bulbs, that have 60 or 100 Leds inside, has anybody tried them yet?
NZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on October 01, 2010, 03:27:01 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on September 30, 2010, 08:16:05 PM
Robbie:

I just got notice of that in my e-mail and I was going to post it here as well.

Here are the details....I paid about twice that for my 650F cap! This is a great deal everyone.

Bill

PS Robbie, this is exactly the right place for this link. Thanks.

dang! i could run a jt off the leakage current alone... ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: The Observer on October 01, 2010, 07:20:38 PM

Pirate,

Viewed the video.

I was thinking it had an Air Core Joule Thief lighting a CFL..
No, it was a guy sticking materials that didn't even closely fit into the core of a transformer and looking at an old Voltmeter.
Creating an unscientific loose magnetic coupling effect in the core with different materials...
What was the Frequency? Was it a Pulsed Wave? If not, then where is the Diode?
I won't bore you with all the questions this YouTube Poster left unanswered.

However...

Since the transformer was 'singing' it is very likely it was resonating as an air core.
Changing the dynamics of any object is going to change it's resonant frequency.
I suppose this guy didn't know he needed to change the frequency to compare.
This video did not prove to me that this guy can light a CFL with an Air Core Joule Thief.

I then searched YouTube for an 'Air Core Joule Thief CFL' and the like with no luck.
The only ones that come up use a Ferromagnetic Core.
I assume you agree that all of YOUR "impressive' Joule Thief Circuits
use a FerroMagnetic Core.

One guy tuned the output of a Joule Thief to resonate an ignition coil... that lit up 2 CFLs at Resonance.
This guy is brilliant !!!

I believe this is the direction to go...
as one might gather from my
(((((Why is an Acoustic Guitar louder than Electric Guitar ?))))) Thread.
I assert here quite heavily
against a stiff wind of opposition
that Resonance is a Phenomenon that
deserves A LOT of attention in an OU Forum.

In short, if you are just getting to know me... I say there are 2 legit sources of Free Energy I can see.
1. Ferromagnetics... that utilize free electron spin magnetic dipoles.
2. Forced Resonance... Two tuning forks ring louder and longer than 1 when only 1 is struck.

Best Regards,
The Observer

P.S. Pirate, I really do appreciate you giving me the time of day on this.
I've watched quite a few of your vids... and have a great respect for you and all you have done.
I wouldn't be such a pain,
but I honestly think I'm am bringing up a subject that sorely needs to be talked about.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 01, 2010, 08:03:24 PM

Quote from: The Observer on October 01, 2010, 11:45:39 AM
Pirate,

Oops.. I did not see your post.

I apologize.. I did not check out the video as I do know an air core will light Leds.
I was not aware that there were CFLs in the video.

I need to get to work right now... I will check it later (before I go on with my assertions).

Are they resonating these air coils to accomplish the feat?

Best Regards,
The Observer

I believe this is a safe assumption. I don't know it to be fact but, without any core, what else is there that can be performing the work?

I totally agree that resonance is a very important phenomenon. We saw this back a while ago when "tuning" our JT circuits. You could tune it for longevity (one point of resonance) or tune it for the most light output (another resonance point) or a compromise of both.

I have not built any JT air cores as of yet but MK1 has made many videos on his air core research. Lidmotor just release a video of his aircore on Youtube but he was using it on an SEC experiment I believe.

I just got in from my first job and now am getting ready for my night job. When I get a chance, I will search my youtube favorites to find some interesting and hopefully applicable videos.

Thank you for the compliments on my videos. I need to be making some more and I will when I get the time.

Again, I totally agree that any OU electronics circuit will employ resonance one way or the other. I also found a metglass core about 1" in dia. and I think the perm. specs on that are over 100,000 or something. It might make an interesting JT.

I appreciate the back and forth and exchange of information. This is how we can hopefully accomplish something really great.

Bill

***EDIT*** I did a quick search and found these but have not reviewed them. I recognize some of the guys though.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on October 01, 2010, 08:18:15 PM

Hi everybody,
I thought I was just going to stop in and share a couple of led lights with you all, but I see things are cooking again.
So,
I first, guess I will make a non-answer to the observer and nickz,
@the observer,
I agree you are talking about something very few of us have considered.
My eyes usually glaze over when the "magnetic" folks talk about their ideas.
This is because I have not been able to sort out the magnetic stuff
....... except to know that the "free-loading" that happens on the toroid which allows a secondary to provide spiky volts to run a dozen leds and sometimes a cfl, is mostly possible because of the toroid shape (because the magnetics cannot escape as they can with a straight bar).

I would love to hear of some magnetic experiments that can be done to show how these theories work, because I do think they are a big reason for the magic of the secondary of the jtc.

@nickZ,
All I can say about your questions are that there is an art to making a good joule thief circuit.
Changing some of the important elements will change the way the circuit works for the other important elements, so change the transistor, or the toroid size or properties, or change the number of windings on the bifilar or the secondary and all the rest of the elements might change too.

It is easy to make a basic joule thief, and it is easy to get one to produce surprising results from a secondary, but to get an extraordinary one is tricky and really an art.
The best thing to do is read this thread with this in mind, because there is a wealth of experience shared about the different ways the parts work together.

Also, My first 2 joule thief circuits were made on a ceramic magnet.
They were lousy.
I never got them to work with less than 2 batteries in series.
Then I learned that a ferrite toroid was a special item and not a ferrite magnet shaped in a toroid.
The magnet saturated the transistors and they eventually stopped working altogether.
The transistors were fine later, but they needed to rest from the steady magnetic influence.

-----

OK,
I got a tip from a friend that wallyworld has new led bulbs, and I went to see today.
Both of these have more than the 20 of the led bulbs I have been using.
The Lights of america are made so the leds go in all directions, and this one looks wonderful inside a silk shade. It looks like a 40w bulb.
The 'accent led' bulb is very round and works for those bathroom fixtures where a big row of bulbs surround the mirror.
This light is really a beautiful color, and it does NOT need a shade.
The same company makes one with non frosted 'glass' and a candelabra shaped one that is frosted.

This is exciting because designers have been busy.

thank you,

jeanna

*PS... Hi Bill,

Quote

I appreciate the back and forth and exchange of information. This is how we can hopefully accomplish something really great.

I agree.

j

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on October 01, 2010, 11:47:57 PM

Quote from: The Observer on October 01, 2010, 07:20:38 PM

(((((Why is an Acoustic Guitar louder than Electric Guitar ?))))) Thread.
I assert here quite heavily
against a stiff wind of opposition
that Resonance is a Phenomenon that
deserves A LOT of attention in an OU Forum.

boring..
why don't you build us a aircore jt that lites a cfl and show us your spec's..
i built one back in june 2009 .. reason i didn't report my build.. it took me 28$ in wire to make it happen..
it had a 2000 turn secondary.. if that tells you something.. 229 ma's draw on a 1.5 volt battery..
i could shot a video of it running but what good would it be.. just to see people say wow.. and never build it..
cause they just like to (observe) and not build..

happy observing

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on October 01, 2010, 11:58:55 PM

@all

FREE LUNCH

There is a simple air core jt lighting cfl , but cfl that is so retro :D

Slayer , call his slayer's exciter , jonny and lid also have some variation on it .

Mark

PS hi everyone ! i will be spending more time here winter is coming and i got some new stuff to show soon !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on October 02, 2010, 12:02:31 AM

Quote from: jeanna on October 01, 2010, 08:18:15 PM

I would love to hear of some magnetic experiments that can be done to show how these theories work, because I do think they are a big reason for the magic of the secondary of the jtc.

jeanna

Jeanna

Here is a link that caught my attention a few days ago.......not exactly sure how I found it.....I thought I was going to this thread and ended up there.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8825.0

The device looks very simple....... and it looks like a few companies may be investing in the idea.

I have only got to page 10 so far..

I see no sign so far that that anyone there has expermented with impulses.
First tests ( on the link above ) indicated that the circuit seems to have some sensitivity to polarity..... connecting the polarity one way gave 1V connecting it the other way gave 1.5 V
My hope is that this effect can be used for rectification eventually.

I have built a couple small test coils to see what happens.

I have made 2 coils that are pretty much identical
Same number of toroids .......same number of windings .

I have placed one coil on top of the other and put very small NEOs in between each set of toroids.
The magnets are small. 1/8th in diameter and 1.16 in thickness
If I do not get impulses through the circuit I can start taking magnets out ........one by one.............or add larger magnets as needed. This system should be almost infinitely tunable.

I am thinking that the magnets should be strong enough to block the sign wave part of the signal.........but weak enough to pass most of the impulses.
I am hoping that the magnets have a sharpening effect on the iompulses rather than a dampening effect..........This is just a hope ........I have not started testing yet.

I will be powering this circuit with a JT that is strong enough to light a CFL.
I will start with it in series with a load.........but hope to make it the load eventually.

gary

Edit
In the top picture the shiny things between the toroids are the magnets......... those magnets are all that is holding the 2 coils together.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on October 02, 2010, 12:33:16 AM

Quote from: NickZ on October 01, 2010, 12:42:55 PM
@ All:
What if any is the advantage of using a capacitor instead of batteries. Yes, they work, but, do they last longer, work better, cost less etz...?
And has anybody found a way to charge the Run battery, dirrectly yet, without having to swap and use a second charge battery? Or use a switch. Just using the One Battery to run and charge itself. I think that it has been done, possibly by Lidmotor, (or someone else).
I just built a coil for my JT using a 2 inch circular ceramic magnet (thin round magnet) similar to the speaker magnets but thinner. I could not notice any beneficial effect of power over a smaller 1" ferrite toroid. It did have a metal shield on one side. I didn't try it by taking the shield off. since iron can help induction by 5000 times. I don't see any advantage yet.
How many volts does a JT primary need to output, to produce the higher volts (like 1000v, or 10.000v) when a secondary is attached. I see little or no induction output in a secondary using the 2n2222 transistor.
Also, how is it possible that a BJT producing only 4 or 5 volts can light up Many 3 v Leds, in my case 25 Leds, possibly many more. 25 Leds times 3 volts is 75 volts worth, from 4 volts using two AAs. Even if it can light 100 Leds, would they produce more actual light, than when using only 25 Leds?
What can a JT do running the new higher powered 12 volt Leds lights bulbs, that have 60 or 100 Leds inside, has anybody tried them yet?
NZ

NZ

Maybe the biggest advantage of using a capacitor rather than a battery is if you get it to self charge with a cap there is little to argue about.......a battery is based on a chemical reaction and that makes it hard to tell how much power is actually there.\
On the other hand that chemical reaction also helps regulate the voltage making a JT with a battery more stable than a JT that runs off a cap.
A cap will probably also need over charge protection of some kind.

I have had some luck in the past with feeding back energy to the same battery........but the process took a bunch of coils........usually around 9
I was able to get both the battery voltage and the voltage across the C and E of the transistor to rise at he same time
I could keep it self charging as long as I wanted to.........but not automatically .....I had to tweak the pot every few hours to keep it charging.
I am currently working on a simpler version that will work automaticly and have just a few coils

How many volts from a JT it takes to light a LED has no real answer.
It depends on the JT .......Is it very spikey or is the output more like a sine wave.?
I have lit up the same 90 LED array brightly with 250 V showing across its leads..........and with as little as 2 V,......
I like using my candy cane coils.........they tend to be very spikey......The way I tell is that they will light up the LEDs with much lower voltage indicated on my DMM.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on October 02, 2010, 02:59:03 AM

Resonanceman and All:
It looks like certain types of capacitors accept pulses better that others do, and can possibly charge back up more efficiently than batteries do. It also may be possible to use them as start caps, and the device will output directly when turned on, without even having storage batteries. Start caps would recharge themselves at the same time. Adding magnets might help, although I don't see any effect by placing magnets on the coils at the basic jt level.
Do we really need the higher powered JT, or can they be made to work great at very low voltage. I like the way they can light a 90 light leds panel with 2v. But it's not how low a voltage they'll work at, but How much Light and output they can be made to produce. It may be possible to have them selfrun, with 0 volt external input.
NZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on October 02, 2010, 03:46:31 AM

Quote from: NickZ on October 02, 2010, 02:59:03 AM

Do we really need the higher powered JT, or can they be made to work great at very low voltage. I like the way they can light a 90 light leds panel with 2v. But it's not how low a voltage they'll work at, but How much Light and output they can be made to produce. It may be possible to have them selfrun, with 0 volt external input.
NZ

If you want to light 90 led's then you will connect them all in series! so as each led requires 2 volts each then 90 x 2 = 180v OK. The same current required to light one led is thus shared by all. So 20 milliamps to light one becomes 20 Ma for all (in series) If all are wired in parallel the common voltage needed for all 90 is infact only 2 volts. However each led now needs 20 Ma each = 1800Ma or 1.8 AMPS This is the difference in how you use Led combinations. A JT circuit running from a low voltage source can produce high voltages but only at a low comparitive current, for most of your basic circuits. Regards Merv

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 02, 2010, 07:39:06 AM

Quote from: resonanceman on October 02, 2010, 12:02:31 AM
Jeanna

Here is a link that caught my attention a few days ago.......not exactly sure how I found it.....I thought I was going to this thread and ended up there.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8825.0 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8825.0)

The device looks very simple....... and it looks like a few companies may be investing in the idea.

I have only got to page 10 so far..

I see no sign so far that that anyone there has expermented with impulses.
First tests ( on the link above ) indicated that the circuit seems to have some sensitivity to polarity..... connecting the polarity one way gave 1V connecting it the other way gave 1.5 V
My hope is that this effect can be used for rectification eventually.

I have built a couple small test coils to see what happens.

I have made 2 coils that are pretty much identical
Same number of toroids .......same number of windings .

I have placed one coil on top of the other and put very small NEOs in between each set of toroids.
The magnets are small. 1/8th in diameter and 1.16 in thickness
If I do not get impulses through the circuit I can start taking magnets out ........one by one.............or add larger magnets as needed. This system should be almost infinitely tunable.

I am thinking that the magnets should be strong enough to block the sign wave part of the signal.........but weak enough to pass most of the impulses.
I am hoping that the magnets have a sharpening effect on the iompulses rather than a dampening effect..........This is just a hope ........I have not started testing yet.

I will be powering this circuit with a JT that is strong enough to light a CFL.
I will start with it in series with a load.........but hope to make it the load eventually.

gary

Edit
In the top picture the shiny things between the toroids are the magnets......... those magnets are all that is holding the 2 coils together.

Gary:

That link is to a topic started by Lawrence Tseung of the famed Lead Out theory. I suggest that you read all of the posts. In my opinion, his theory is flawed, very flawed. He is now using a simple JT circuit and claiming over 35 COP. He is not accounting for the energy input, only the output.

He has, in the past, both here and on other forums, asked for money for non-proven, non-existent devices. His current device is based upon Gadgetmall's JT work.

He is probably a nice old guy that is a little mixed up. But, I would not recommend that topic before looking into his other topics and reading his assertions and ideas.

I do believe that he means well but...well, just see for yourself. Check out his other topic where he promised a working UFO to be demonstrated at the China Olympics. The hyper drive was to be based upon his theory. Of course, this did not happen.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 02, 2010, 07:42:23 AM

Jeanna:

Cool bulbs! My Walmart just now got in the basic LOA bulbs you were using a while back. I bought 3 of them in different sizes. They had nothing like the ones you posted. If/when they come in I will get some to play with. I think I have a few ideas I want to explore.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 02, 2010, 07:51:37 AM

Quote from: NickZ on October 01, 2010, 12:42:55 PM
@ All:
What if any is the advantage of using a capacitor instead of batteries. Yes, they work, but, do they last longer, work better, cost less etz...?
And has anybody found a way to charge the Run battery, dirrectly yet, without having to swap and use a second charge battery? Or use a switch. Just using the One Battery to run and charge itself. I think that it has been done, possibly by Lidmotor, (or someone else).
I just built a coil for my JT using a 2 inch circular ceramic magnet (thin round magnet) similar to the speaker magnets but thinner. I could not notice any beneficial effect of power over a smaller 1" ferrite toroid. It did have a metal shield on one side. I didn't try it by taking the shield off. since iron can help induction by 5000 times. I don't see any advantage yet.
How many volts does a JT primary need to output, to produce the higher volts (like 1000v, or 10.000v) when a secondary is attached. I see little or no induction output in a secondary using the 2n2222 transistor.
Also, how is it possible that a BJT producing only 4 or 5 volts can light up Many 3 v Leds, in my case 25 Leds, possibly many more. 25 Leds times 3 volts is 75 volts worth, from 4 volts using two AAs. Even if it can light 100 Leds, would they produce more actual light, than when using only 25 Leds?
What can a JT do running the new higher powered 12 volt Leds lights bulbs, that have 60 or 100 Leds inside, has anybody tried them yet?
NZ

I have found many advantages to using supercaps instead of batteries. First, they charge much faster AND, they appear to capture the large spikes much better and store them as usable power for JT, Bedini, EB, etc.

Second, in my experience, they output at a more consistent level and your circuit can stay in resonance for a much longer period of time than with a battery. I have not seen anything about them that I do not like....so far.

Well, except for the cost but, now with a 3,000 F cap for under $30 US, that is not a problem either. You can charge/discharge them for millions of cycles making them much more durable than a rechargeable battery. Still not as cheap as a rechargeable energizer for a few bucks but, to me, this is the wave of the future and it will only get better.

My opinion for what it is worth.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on October 02, 2010, 09:07:07 AM

Check this one out!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swV6ZxCb5fw&feature=related

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: The Observer on October 02, 2010, 12:48:09 PM

Pirate,

Two Jobs !
What? Are you paying back Credit Cards like me?

Thankyou, Someone who agrees with me on Resonance.
Note... I independently found a way to light an LED with a 1.5 V without using a Joule Thief.

All I did was resonate an audio transformer...
with a simple oscillating circuit on my Electronics Set.
The STEP DOWN SIDE (the secondary) lights an LED at Resonance.
An LED across the primary BURNS OUT !

I am going to readjust my claim about the CFL and an air core coil.
A compromise of what has been discussed so far.
Without Ferromagnetic Materials, you can't light a CFL with an air core for an appreciable time without Resonating the Coil.

Your Metglass core with a Magnetic Permeability of 100,000 would work great.
Being every time the Core is 'magnetized'.. it amplifies the Field of the coil by 100,000 times.

B = (Î¼0 * Î¼r * N * i) / l
Î¼r is the relative permeability (Magnetic Permeability) of the material within the solenoid.
B is the Magnetic Field
The rest are constants for any given magnetized coil.

There is stuff that's got a Permeability of 1,000,000 (Super Perma Alloy?)
Pretty sure this stuff could make an amazing Joule Thief.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeanna,
To understand Ferromagnetics you need to take a shrinking pill and 2 trips.
Let's Go !

The 1st trip is inside a 'magnet'.
You will notice Dipoles everywhere. ----> ----> ---->
You see at super fast speeds, and can see 1 or 2 unpaired electrons circling the atoms.
You realize that each Dipole is just a simple coil creating a magnetic field...
Each coil is hooked up to an infinite battery.. that move the electrons around the coil.
You use your super strength to try to turn a dipole...You can't , they are all stuck in 1 place.
Finally, you say..."Get me the hell out of here" and commence a long trip.
On the trip, you find that every single dipole is pointed in the same direction !
Once on the outside you realize that all the small dipole's Magnetic Fields are adding up to a HUGE sum.

2nd Trip is inside "anything that acts like iron in an external magnetic field"
The trip is very similar.
Dipoles... Electrons... Coils... Magnetic Fields.
But when you try to turn a coil... you don't even need super strength to turn it.
It spins Freely BUT. does want to line up with the neighbors, so to speak.
When you decide to leave the place, you cross 1 million dipoles pointed 1 way..
then 1 million pointed 90 degree off the first group...
then 1 million pointed 90 degree off the 2nd group...
then 1 million pointed 90 degree off the 3rd...
etc... etc... etc.
On the outside, you contemplate why you don't detect a Magnetic Field ???

So you used a magnet as a core in one of your first experiments...
You should now be able to see.. that there is no way for a magnet to do anything in a coil.
It's field remains constant no matter what you throw at it.
And since a JT works on a changing magnetic field.. what you did essentially was create an air core.

When you put an "iron' like substance inside the coil.. you were also putting the freely rotating Magnetic Dipoles in there.
And... under a fairly weak magnetic field, they all turn and ADD to the field of the coil.

B = (Î¼0 * Î¼r * N * i) / l
Î¼r is the relative permeability Magnetic Permeability) of the material within the solenoid.
B is the Magnetic Field
The rest are constants for any given magnetized coil.

Pretty Amazing !!!
That Pirate's Metglass core of with a MP of 100,000 could Amplify the Coil's Field by 100,000 times.. dont you think?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kooler,

You say that Resonance is boring because it's been done and talked about?
Or that I am barking up very small tree?

You also claimed to have built an air core JT that lit up a CFL for a long time off of a 1.5 battery.
I don't think that's boring..
You did resonate the coil to accomplish this feat?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MK1,

Thanks for Lunch, it was delicious.

So the "exciter coil" is actually a Resonating Air Core Coil when operated at full potential?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gary,

Interesting setup.. as long as those magnets don't totally saturate the torroids, you could do something.

Which brings me to Tsueng.
Pirate knows more than me.
I like him because he keeps trying for a goal (free energy) and really doesn't stop moving.

If you appreciate the New Age Principle of.... Attracting what You Talk About..
Tsueng is going to get the prize,
even it appears he arrives at the destination by means of pure luck.

When he started a the thread"Embedded Magnets" I promptly let him know to discard that and check out a JT.
Why? Look at my previous post to Jeanna about how to understand Ferromagnetic Materials.
And why fixed magnetic dipoles (in a magnet) don't do much for you inside of a coil.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Have a great day !
The Observer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on October 02, 2010, 01:00:45 PM

Guys and Gal:
Thanks for all the replies. There is still alot of mistery to these devices that don't always add up like 2 + 2 = 4. There is a bit of magic still to be discovered.
I notice that in trying to make a Jt self run while lighting some Led bulbs, there is still some energy lost somewhere, but it may be possible to resolve that by making the circuit more efficient, or stronger still. Or by reducing the amount of charge that is going back into the run batteries. Already the In4007 diode that I'm using does restrict the charge that is going to the run batteries, a bit. And has allowed me to keep the test Jt running now for two weeks now. I do have to manually move or swap the batteries in a particular way, so a simple switch may not work the same.
I think that if I can wind a coil to produce more energy output than is needed, that the energy lost can be made up for to some degree, maybe, worth a try...
Jeanna, Bill and all, thanks for your replies.
I will try capacitors instead of the batteries. I tried to make a small toroid to fit inside my 16 led emergency back up light which uses a big capacitor, but I had no luck with the one I used. I'll make another a bit bigger next time. I'm trying to see if I can make it light up for longer amount of time. It started at 2 hours of back up light, and now its been going for about 3 1/2 hours without the JT circuit. It seems that the more they work the longer the light last.
There are many new Leds lights comming out on the internet now, like on Ebay. Many are very cheap and affordable. I think that charging a 12 battery from a 12 volt solar panel, to run several 12v JTs circuits may be a very affordable way to keep them all charged and running without any loss in power, even 24/7. I am already using the light from these devices to light my house at night. They make great night lights for the bathroom, table lamp lights, accent lighting, and eventually even more.
The newer Led bulbs are just starting to come out on the market here in Costa Rica.
Can't wait to try the .5 - 10 watt 12v superbrights Leds.
I have a feeling that if a Jt that can light a CFL, it would have no problem lighting these higher output Led lights. Even though they are a higher voltage and need a much higher current than the 3 volt Leds.
I particularly like the warm white leds, 140 degree ones.
Check the link below.
http://cgi.ebay.com/20-PC-0-5-Watt-StrawHat-8mm-140-WARM-White-LED-90Kmcd-/250448852092?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a4fea347c

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on October 02, 2010, 05:42:45 PM

@The Observer \ and anyone willing to hear my rant .

As far as resonance goes most people have only scratch the surface , i will make a new topic soon on the physical resonance property , something that is hidden because of the way we use electronics to artificially tune the freq .

All mater has a specific freq , like any conductor has a freq , depending on the amplitude of the signal , will either make it vibrate or destroy it , like the crystal glass broken by sound , there is the half as way of doing it like the mythbusters shooting any freq at any amplitude and looking at the results , that way they have as much chance the win the lottery jackpot ...

This could have been done under 5 minutes , first make the crystal sing with you finger and reproduce the same freq , and voila ...

All i am saying is that any solid mass of mater will react the same to the presence of it fundamental freq .

We tune our circuit with caps and resistor , and never look at the wire ?

I bet there is a way to find the freq for each piece of wire ...

Anyway i will eventually star a tread .

And also put the same type of strings on both guitars electric strings are not made to be loud they are made to make good eddy current for the pickups and are usually smaller other reason for less volume . I know you are a fan of resonance but the key is not the resonance chamber , its resonance it self . The guitar is a great tool for understanding resonance but only a tool . Tune all the strings to the same note pluck one of them and all of them will sing and start moving that is the answer more or less depending on size , now imagine all the strings being the same size and tuned the same note pluck one again they will all vibrate as strongly , using electronics is and artificial means of tuning circuit like small strings in the first experiment it vibrates but barely .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: angryScientist on October 02, 2010, 06:33:06 PM

One way to make a resonating coil more efficient is to reduce the self capacity.

Self capacity will make a current show up on the other end of the coil that doesn't help in producing a magnetic field. Coils should be slow in letting the current through. The current should have to force it's way all the through each and every winding creating a magnetic field as it goes. It builds up momentum, so to speak, in the magnetic field. When you stop feeding the coil current the field gives you that kick on the tail end, it gives you back all the work you put in to building the field but it does it quicker than the time taken to build it.

Tesla said in his Colorado Springs Notes that reducing the self capacity of his coils was essential. He started winding his coils with a spacing between the the windings. Using wire with a thick insulation with a low dielectric constant would work also.

I read in an electrical engineering book for radio design that a spacing of at least half a wire width between turns and at least 1 and a half wire width spacing between the core and the turns was a good rule of thumb to reduce the self capacity.

(It makes me wonder when I see people building Tesla coils on youtube with the turns as close together as they can possibly be; did they not get that memo?)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on October 02, 2010, 07:37:16 PM

Quote from: angryScientist on October 02, 2010, 06:33:06 PM
One way to make a resonating coil more efficient is to reduce the self capacity.

Self capacity will make a current show up on the other end of the coil that doesn't help in producing a magnetic field. Coils should be slow in letting the current through. The current should have to force it's way all the through each and every winding creating a magnetic field as it goes. It builds up momentum, so to speak, in the magnetic field. When you stop feeding the coil current the field gives you that kick on the tail end, it gives you back all the work you put in to building the field but it does it quicker than the time taken to build it.

Tesla said in his Colorado Springs Notes that reducing the self capacity of his coils was essential. He started winding his coils with a spacing between the the windings. Using wire with a thick insulation with a low dielectric constant would work also.

I read in an electrical engineering book for radio design that a spacing of at least half a wire width between turns and at least 1 and a half wire width spacing between the core and the turns was a good rule of thumb to reduce the self capacity.

(It makes me wonder when I see people building Tesla coils on youtube with the turns as close together as they can possibly be; did they not get that memo?)

HHHHMMMMMmmmmm

I did not get the memo.

:)

thanks........now I understand why my big air coils didn't work.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on October 02, 2010, 08:11:43 PM

Quote from: NickZ on October 02, 2010, 02:59:03 AM

Do we really need the higher powered JT, or can they be made to work great at very low voltage. I like the way they can light a 90 light leds panel with 2v. But it's not how low a voltage they'll work at, but How much Light and output they can be made to produce. It may be possible to have them selfrun, with 0 volt external input.
NZ

NZ

I have never got a small JT to self charge...... it seems like it takes a good kick to get it done.

Do I understand that you have tried using feedback on a JT but have not quite got to the point where the battery voltage starts going up.?

If you are close .........reduce the power.
JTs seem to be much more efficent at low power levels.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on October 03, 2010, 02:28:13 AM

@ All, Excellent contributions put forward regarding the effects of resonance and the performance of tuned circuits etc. It is the unique characteristics of how these resonant circuits perform that ultimately decide the quality of the results that can be expected from the JT experiments. This thread in itself is rather special from the many contributors that have posted their ideas and circuits for all to share. As will always be the case in such a popular experimental topic, more interest and first time experimenters are joining in. The same questions pop up... how, what, and if I try, etc etc. Those of us that have already been there and done it are naturally only to willing to offer advice and support. The main problem now is the amount of valuable advice, experimental data, diagrams and schematics- not to forget the many U-tube clips etc locked up in the many previous pages of this excellent topic; which shows no signs of ending. May be it's time to archive this information in such away that it can be easily referenced?. I've no idea what efforts it would take to do this. I know Bill has a reference section of data and pic,s for his experiments, and most likely Jeanna
anyway...just a thought. Kind Regards

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 03, 2010, 02:35:11 AM

Crowclaw:

I agree and I did this very thing over a year ago. I fully admit to not having been able to keep up with it but, most of the early circuits are here along with references to the page where they were posted so folks can read them in context.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6942.0 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6942.0)

If/when I get the time, I will try to catch it up.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on October 03, 2010, 02:43:44 AM

Quote from: angryScientist on October 02, 2010, 06:33:06 PM
One way to make a resonating coil more efficient is to reduce the self capacity.

Self capacity will make a current show up on the other end of the coil that doesn't help in producing a magnetic field. Coils should be slow in letting the current through. The current should have to force it's way all the through each and every winding creating a magnetic field as it goes. It builds up momentum, so to speak, in the magnetic field. When you stop feeding the coil current the field gives you that kick on the tail end, it gives you back all the work you put in to building the field but it does it quicker than the time taken to build it.

Tesla said in his Colorado Springs Notes that reducing the self capacity of his coils was essential. He started winding his coils with a spacing between the the windings. Using wire with a thick insulation with a low dielectric constant would work also.

I read in an electrical engineering book for radio design that a spacing of at least half a wire width between turns and at least 1 and a half wire width spacing between the core and the turns was a good rule of thumb to reduce the self capacity.

(It makes me wonder when I see people building Tesla coils on youtube with the turns as close together as they can possibly be; did they not get that memo?)

Good point, for all of my past JT type experiments I have used insulated stranded hook up wire... even a length of coaxial aerial cable in one case! and not to forget a wine bottle used as a coil former (seasonal joke), domonstrating how these circuits can work using various materials. I posted pic's of these some time back. Take a look at tuned circuits that operate at vhf and uhf frequencies the inductors are open air and the turns are spaced appart, to achieve peak performance at their resonant frequencies. The turn spacings are often squashed up a little or opened out!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 03, 2010, 03:11:36 AM

Quote from: The Observer on October 02, 2010, 12:48:09 PM
Pirate,

Two Jobs !
What? Are you paying back Credit Cards like me?

Actually, child support arrears. (Which are totally bogus!) The state says I will have to pay up to 2 years after I am dead.

Bill

Title: How do you post on here?? No link for "Post", only Reply.
Post by: Doug08 on October 03, 2010, 09:57:12 AM

Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: ltseung888 on October 03, 2010, 05:23:23 PM

Dear All,

I do appreciate the excellent work by many on this thread, especially those from Bill and Jeanna.

I have used the two oscilloscopes to simultaneously display Input and Output Power from the enhanced Joule Thief circuits. The conclusion is that overunity can be achieved via appropriate tuning.

I shall bring a few of the gadgetmail type prototypes to USA and do some presentations at UC Irvine in mid-November. Some of the theory information is attached. The same information will be presented in a coming workishop on Oct 9 at Hong Kong University.

Overunity is real. Energy can be lead-out or brought-in from the surrounding. The Law of Conservation of Energy is NOT violated. A less than USD10 enhanced Joule Thief device can demonstrate that. Please keep up the excellent research.

Lawrence Tseung
Director
Help Seedlings Innovate Foundation Limited

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: ALVARO_CS on October 04, 2010, 10:53:40 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on October 02, 2010, 05:42:45 PM
@The Observer \ and anyone willing to hear my rant .

As far as resonance goes most people have only scratch the surface , i will make a new topic soon on the physical resonance property , something that is hidden because of the way we use electronics to artificially tune the freq .

All mater has a specific freq , like any conductor has a freq , depending on the amplitude of the signal , will either make it vibrate or destroy it , like the crystal glass broken by sound , there is the half as way of doing it like the mythbusters shooting any freq at any amplitude and looking at the results , that way they have as much chance the win the lottery jackpot ...

This could have been done under 5 minutes , first make the crystal sing with you finger and reproduce the same freq , and voila ...

All i am saying is that any solid mass of mater will react the same to the presence of it fundamental freq .

We tune our circuit with caps and resistor , and never look at the wire ?

I bet there is a way to find the freq for each piece of wire ...

Anyway i will eventually star a tread .

And also put the same type of strings on both guitars electric strings are not made to be loud they are made to make good eddy current for the pickups and are usually smaller other reason for less volume . I know you are a fan of resonance but the key is not the resonance chamber , its resonance it self . The guitar is a great tool for understanding resonance but only a tool . Tune all the strings to the same note pluck one of them and all of them will sing and start moving that is the answer more or less depending on size , now imagine all the strings being the same size and tuned the same note pluck one again they will all vibrate as strongly , using electronics is and artificial means of tuning circuit like small strings in the first experiment it vibrates but barely .

Mark

@Mark
IÂ´m one who is VERY interested in "willing to hear your rant".
I agree in that any material / shape has its own resonant freq.
I also think that, shape also has a great significant meaning in terms of resonance as the electron-motion path (spinning-orbit-vortex) is not an aleatory function but rather a mathematical-geometrical constant in the universe.
PLEASE start that thread !
I have read all the "platonic solids" thread and IÂ´m still hungry !
Thanks so much for your generous sharing !
regards
Alvaro
Edit
all these comments are related to my research about coils/shapes and the intuitive feeling that pushes me to revise the established concept of a coil as a loop of wire.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on October 04, 2010, 06:55:25 PM

Uh Oh,
I was away less than 2 days and I have to catch up a lot.

Mostly this following warning is for nickz, but for all others trying to find where the extra energy went.

This past spring I made a whole bunch of different sorts of 'galvanic' batteries.
These were just using 2 metals and not any electrolyte except water or a tiny amount of plain salt.
(I know that adding sodium carbonate or sodium hydroxide can greatly augment a galvanic battery)

I found that a joule thief circuit that could make many lights bright would suddenly barely light one led if the source was a galvanic battery.
After poking into this a bit, I came to the conclusion that MUCH more amperage is going into a jtc than the DMM can show you.
So, when you are comparing input to output, you MUST find a way to properly calculate the input.

I have always ignored the results (not the work) of those folks who use a power source that comes from the mains because I knew much amperage could sneak in there, but I was not expecting to find the same would happen with a NiMH battery. (or any other normal battery)

So, please keep this in mind.
Whenever you have unusually high results, please check with a magnesium/carbon or Magnesium/copper galvanic battery. These have similar voltage to a single AA yet the mA available is very limited, and as a result, you can see what the NiMH allows through but we cannot see.

thank you,

jeanna

@theobserver,
Thanks for your attempt. ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 05, 2010, 05:42:37 AM

Man, check out what this guy is now doing with an air core:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FC3TVSE_1Uc&feature=sub (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FC3TVSE_1Uc&feature=sub)

Not a JT obviously but he is doing some great work over there. Lighting a cfl and a floro tube very brightly.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: pese on October 05, 2010, 06:12:36 AM

it is nothing els that tesla also done
nothing els that ANY "HAM" Radio-mateur can doing.
RF (radio-frequenciens over 100 kilohertz dont need
ferrit to transform ANY votage to any other Voltages.

I have done this with 36 watts CFL tube on my 80meter.CW transmitter
(mobile , on 12 olt car-battery. 60 YEARS AGO.

----

Only great things, for folks that have "forrgotten" this technik... (because low grade school-teaching
in popular electronics) - and others more...-

Pese

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on October 05, 2010, 10:30:08 AM

Quote from: pese on October 05, 2010, 06:12:36 AM

I have done this with 36 watts CFL tube on my 80meter.CW transmitter
(mobile , on 12 olt car-battery. 60 YEARS AGO.

----

Pese

Crikey pese, I thought I was knocking on.... I can walk 800 yds with a 5 ft tube and point it under the pylon power lines at night. Bingo let there be light. Kind regards to a fellow eng.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on October 09, 2010, 02:46:43 AM

i thought some of you who remember this character might get a kick out of this...
(emphasis mine)

from http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=133.msg5814;topicseen#msg5814

Quote from: milehigh
These are things that have to be evaluated on a case by case basis. If something is outside of the ordinary then it's logical to look at it from multiple perspectives. What sometimes can appear to be outside the normal is in fact within the normal. What can appear to not have an explanation can in fact have an explanation. I case in point that was referenced recently was the joule thief. A single AA cell can only light a single LED. Connect that AA cell to a joule thief, and it can light one, 10, 25, or 50 LEDs to the same brightness. Many people would consider this to be outside of the ordinary, but in fact it isn't. If some of those people learn why, that gives them more understanding so that they can continue researching with a bit more knowledge under their belts.

So textbooks can be of great value, they represent accumulated knowledge gained from decades and decades of research!

Part of the fun is to be daunted by the lack of an explanation, for sure. Sticking with my example, once you understand how a joule thief works, that might help you figure out how some other unexplained phenomenon works.

i'm at a loss for words...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 09, 2010, 03:17:19 AM

Wilby:

Wow, MH admits you can light up to 50 leds from an AA? Gee, what about 400? I guess he missed that one.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on October 09, 2010, 03:30:45 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on October 09, 2010, 03:17:19 AM
Wilby:

Wow, MH admits you can light up to 50 leds from an AA? Gee, what about 400? I guess he missed that one.

Bill

indeed! i was impressed by his claim that "A single AA cell can only light a single LED"... i guess if he ever came down from his ivory tower of wiki gleaned knowledge and did some bench work, he would know that it won't.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on October 09, 2010, 03:31:06 AM

double post

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Poit on October 09, 2010, 03:33:17 AM

please excuse my ignorance, but I don't see whats all the fuss about? A AA battery hooked up to a JT lights 1 LED or 400 LED's, there is no mystery... the amps are sacrificed to make the higher voltage. And there is definitely no OU.

From my limited experience, a JT seems very similar to a switch mode power supply.

Pete

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on October 09, 2010, 03:49:47 AM

Quote from: Poit on October 09, 2010, 03:33:17 AM
please excuse my ignorance, but I don't see whats all the fuss about? A AA battery hooked up to a JT lights 1 LED or 400 LED's, there is no mystery... the amps are sacrificed to make the higher voltage. And there is definitely no OU.

From my limited experience, a JT seems very similar to a switch mode power supply.

Pete

there is no fuss, i was just noting how milehigh claims "A single AA cell can only light a single LED"; and laughing.
it's a blocking oscillator... this was covered in the first couple pages of this thread. where you got the idea that pirate or myself is claiming it is OU is beyond me.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on October 09, 2010, 05:55:28 PM

a little message to milehigh:

when you demonstrate 'A single AA cell lighting a single LED'... i might consider a retraction. until then, you can go spit (from your ivory tower).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 10, 2010, 12:47:31 AM

Wilby:

Thank you for pointing out that neither you, or I, have ever claimed OU from a JT circuit. I have been beat up with this for some time now. I have been told, it is nothing new, and has been around for centuries, etc.

I do still wonder though, why you could amaze those guys while ice fishing with your JT light running off of one of their "dead" batteries? Why can't we buy a JT flash light if this is so well known and has been around forever?

This is what amazes me.

Thanks again for setting the record straight.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on October 10, 2010, 01:57:57 AM

Guys and Gal:
I feel that there IS More to the Joule Thief. Much more...
It will all be proven soon as the Jt can be made to self run and charge. We'll let science explain that one. I am sitting next to one now that has been running a long time, much longer than the old dead batteries would have run it. When made to resonate and are tuned properly, the Jt's input can be reduced to almost nothing, possibly even less that nothing, while they are charging batteries, capacitors, and while lighting Leds at the same time. They can charge batteries without hardly discharging their own run batteries. I know that you've heard it all before, But, Where is that extra enery coming from... ? You may not see it, but I do.

My two cents worth, from the side of those that feel that the Jt circuit can output and produce more than it takes to run itself. I know that I'm not the only one that thinks so.
They are so economical to use in lighting systems that use Leds bulbs that its next to being free energy, anyways.
These little devices are already lighting more areas of my house each day. When connected to solar panels they do provide 100% free energy, over the panels normal output.
There may be many good reasons why the techonology is not being used commercially, yet, but it will in the future,
it's a matter of time. Even Leds lights are now becoming popular in households, cars, and gardens, not so, just a few years ago.

NickZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 10, 2010, 03:26:18 AM

Nick:

I totally agree with you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on October 10, 2010, 02:33:08 PM

Might be useful. A little night-light that projects a nice circle of soft light on the ceiling or on a wall.

The Joule Thief circuit is designed for AAA-rechargeable-batteries and runs many nights.

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on October 10, 2010, 05:18:19 PM

conrad
pretty kool setup i might have to try it..
is the cap needed or is it for a higher freq..

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on October 11, 2010, 06:47:18 AM

Quote from: kooler on October 10, 2010, 05:18:19 PM
conrad
pretty kool setup i might have to try it..
is the cap needed or is it for a higher freq..

robbie

Robbie,

the 2 nF capacitor is very essential (and also the capacitance of about 2 nF; 100 nF would be way too much). It influences the switching of the transistor.

I learned this way of switching a Joule Thief from posts of a person calling himself "groundloop". It should reduce the base current and therefore the power consumption of the Joule Thief. But one has to test for the right capacitance and resistance. It also restricts the functioning of the Joule Thief to a quite narrow band of supply voltage. In this case 1.8 Volt would be already too high.

The high frequency is a result of the air core. In case you use a toroid, all values change (frequency achieved, capacitance and resistance needed).

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on October 11, 2010, 07:56:39 AM

:) Hello All, Attached is a diagram of a charging light circuit (hope i have it right ! )

Just say I charge this 200F cap with the solar cell when the switch is on of course,
I now need some help with adding a green LED, so when the cap is fully charged to
say 2.4v + the green LED will light up, then I want to be able to switch the charge switch
off and then I can use the 200F cap on my Joulethief, but I also want the green LED to
go out as soon as I switch the charge switch off.

The green LED is just to show me when its fully charged. I dont want the Cap consuming
current with the green LED when I'm powering my Joulethief !
Can someone help me with that green LED added to the diagram in the right way with
what ever else I need, Thanks.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on October 11, 2010, 02:36:49 PM

Quote from: freepow on October 11, 2010, 07:56:39 AM
:) Hello All, Attached is a diagram of a charging light circuit (hope i have it right ! )

Just say I charge this 200F cap with the solar cell when the switch is on of course,
I now need some help with adding a green LED, so when the cap is fully charged to
say 2.4v + the green LED will light up, then I want to be able to switch the charge switch
off and then I can use the 200F cap on my Joulethief, but I also want the green LED to
go out as soon as I switch the charge switch off.

The green LED is just to show me when its fully charged. I dont want the Cap consuming
current with the green LED when I'm powering my Joulethief !
Can someone help me with that green LED added to the diagram in the right way with
what ever else I need, Thanks.

Hi freepow, Have you tried out your existing circuit, or is it just an idea on paper at this stage? I need to know the output voltage and current your solar panel can deliver. If your panel is capable of delivering well above the current limit of your LED say 20 mA into your cap to charge it, then the LED will be destroyed without a current limiter resistor in series!! however, if your panel consists of a just few cells you should be ok... can you let me know. I'll try and devise a simple circuit that will light a green LED when cell reaches 2.4volts, and at that point will shut off the charge voltage. Is this what you want to do? Regards Merv

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on October 11, 2010, 07:26:06 PM

@ Merv, thankyou, the solar cell will put out say 2.5v for the Cap and the current say about 200mA,
the diagram is only on paper at this stage, can you help ????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on October 12, 2010, 01:38:12 AM

Quote from: freepow on October 11, 2010, 07:26:06 PM
@ Merv, thankyou, the solar cell will put out say 2.5v for the Cap and the current say about 200mA,
the diagram is only on paper at this stage, can you help ????

@freepow Thank you for the info. I have an idea for you... will keep it as simple as possible using readily available parts. I trust you have a multi meter to make some circuit adjustments. Will post back soon.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on October 12, 2010, 02:46:32 PM

Did anyone try this:Micro TPU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQr9vLxs7lM

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on October 12, 2010, 02:55:26 PM

@freepow Here is the circuit:

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on October 12, 2010, 02:56:13 PM

Quote from: guruji on October 12, 2010, 02:46:32 PM
Did anyone try this:Micro TPU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQr9vLxs7lM

Yep i did , i long time ago , i believe others tried too . I have nothing to comment in the circuit the leds are used as diodes to rectify and feed back to source so the losses make light ...

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: ibpointless2 on October 12, 2010, 02:58:12 PM

I have made the fuji joule thief circuit to light up a CFL and LEDâ€™s but for some reason mine is not as powerful as others. For example there is a guy on youtube by the name of Lasersaber who built one of these according to piratelabs, just like how I built mine, who is able to get great results.Laser saber videoâ€¦

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFpzkyP6DCU

I have one of those cone shaped LED bulbs like lasersaber has but mine only lights 3 of the many LEDâ€™s while all of his light up and not only that they also light up about 100 or so more. I also saw that piratelabs had his light up 400 LEDs! I donâ€™t know what I did wrong because I can only light up 3 of my LEDâ€™s in my cone shaped bulb.

I removed the big capacitor. Cut the end of the diode and solder my wire to the other end and a wire to the negative and that connected to the CFlL or LED. Then I tried piratelabs way of soldering those to connections in the middle of board and use that along with the diode connection to power a CFL And LED but still the same results, only able to power 3 LEDâ€™s. I also add the on/switch to it just like the one piratelabs have. I donâ€™t get it what am I doing wrong? Can anyone help me? Thanks!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on October 12, 2010, 03:18:35 PM

@freepow, The circuit works as follows: TR1 adjust the point at which the green Led turns on (cap fully charged point). Start adjustment at minimum and gradually increase the pott until led is bright ( don't exceed 20mA) 16mA is ideal. At this setting TR2 should conduct and act as a dummy load for your solar panel, thus preventing over charge. Circuit should operate at 2.9volts_3volts. The capacitor is included to prevent set limit instability... you can experiment with some of the values as indicated. Transistors can be similar types_ TR2 must be capable of handling at least 300mA. All resistors can be 1/4 watt preferably 1%. TR2's collector resistor minimum 1 watt. 5% _ 10% Note your red will stand a forward current of around 20mA... depending on your cap's charge state you must take this into account, as it could be damaged. If you need a higher charge rate, substitute for a schottky diode rated at 1 amp (they have a low forward voltage drop_typically 0.3 volts) Kind regards Merv

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on October 12, 2010, 06:14:19 PM

@Pirate/all

Did anyone know about this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSxc5jbaAIU&feature=related

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on October 12, 2010, 07:25:29 PM

;) Thanks very much Crowclaw !

Can I have a solar cell with output of 70+ mA and have the red LED working as a charge light and still
have the green LED turn on when Cap is charged full ?????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 12, 2010, 10:17:10 PM

Quote from: ibpointless2 on October 12, 2010, 02:58:12 PM
I have made the fuji joule thief circuit to light up a CFL and LEDâ€™s but for some reason mine is not as powerful as others. For example there is a guy on youtube by the name of Lasersaber who built one of these according to piratelabs, just like how I built mine, who is able to get great results.Laser saber videoâ€¦

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFpzkyP6DCU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFpzkyP6DCU)

I have one of those cone shaped LED bulbs like lasersaber has but mine only lights 3 of the many LEDâ€™s while all of his light up and not only that they also light up about 100 or so more. I also saw that piratelabs had his light up 400 LEDs! I donâ€™t know what I did wrong because I can only light up 3 of my LEDâ€™s in my cone shaped bulb.

I removed the big capacitor. Cut the end of the diode and solder my wire to the other end and a wire to the negative and that connected to the CFlL or LED. Then I tried piratelabs way of soldering those to connections in the middle of board and use that along with the diode connection to power a CFL And LED but still the same results, only able to power 3 LEDâ€™s. I also add the on/switch to it just like the one piratelabs have. I donâ€™t get it what am I doing wrong? Can anyone help me? Thanks!

Ibpointless:

I am not sure what could be wrong, it sounds as if you did the mod correctly. I had a lot of trouble lighting a cfl with any of my Fuji's for a while and when I finally got it to light, it was not all that bright. I did much better with the floro tubes and the leds.

Can you post for us a good close-up photo or two of your Fuji board? Maybe one of us here can see something wrong? We will try to help you as much as we can.

Stprue:

Yes, I remember seeing that video a while back. I never tried what he was demonstrating though.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on October 12, 2010, 11:51:50 PM

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on October 12, 2010, 11:54:19 PM

Hello Crowclaw, I have tried this particular circuit, works great, however the volts coming from 3xAA (used)
which is 3.265v go's through the square red LED then drops down to 2.028v after the LED,
then the super-cap charges with a maximum of 2.028v.

I have powered a JouleThief with 1xLED bright @ 6.70mA draw through a 4k resistor in
my JouleThief, and then I tried powering the JouleThief with the super-cap and the current
draw went up to a whopping 10mA ! through a larger 8k resistor, why is this ????

Does that mean I have to use probably 20k+ to get the same current draw as when using
the 1xAA battery ????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on October 13, 2010, 05:22:48 AM

@freepow, If we apply Ohm's law to the figures you have given, we get: 6.70mA x 4K = 26.8v and 10mA x 8K = 80 volts!! as measured across the resistors. The resistors are in series with your JT circuit so together form the load across the source, and the source voltage will of course not be as calculated. Firstly you must check some values. We know also of course that a JT circuit produces high frequency, high voltage pulse spikes. The current draw is not smooth DC current however, but switches in sympathy with off on nature of the circuit at the operating frequency. Digital meters can and do give false readings under these conditions. What you could do, and this goes for any one experimenting with JT's is to place a decoupling capacitor across the JT's supply point, and after your series resistor. You need to experiment with values but observe polarity for electrolytic's or tant's. This addition will tend to smooth out the switching ripple. An analogue test meter may give more accurate results. If you want to adjust the current draw used a series rheostat which will enable to set the draw. Jeanna uses one, as does Bill I think. Finally a fully charged cell has a lower internal impedance and is capable of supplying a greater current draw. As a cell discharges it's internal impedance (resistance) rises and its current capability reduces as does it's voltage. The JT circuits can operate at very low voltages and current draw, hence "AA" batteries not capable of power a higher demand for some applications are thus ideal for JT circuits. Remember results also change dramatically depending on your source voltage which can be quite critical. Your JT design characteristics inc. coils, transistor gain and component values all play a part, which is reflected in the results you can expect. regards Merv

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on October 13, 2010, 06:05:43 AM

Quote from: freepow on October 12, 2010, 07:25:29 PM
;) Thanks very much Crowclaw !

Can I have a solar cell with output of 70+ mA and have the red LED working as a charge light and still
have the green LED turn on when Cap is charged full ?????

That's how I presented my circuit, with TR2 acting as a shunt across the solar panel. The current draw needed to fully charge your cap from the solar panel may destroy your red LED as this is in series and will attempt to deliver what ever current is required! A standard LED has a recommended safe forward current of approx 20mA and is not generally a good idea to exceed this value without a series resistor to limit the current. However, a solar panels output depends on the load connected to it, and of course the amount of light reaching it's surface... LED's are cheap enough to experiment with so give it a try. Connect your meter in series on mA's to monitor the charge current.
I didn't answer your question regarding resistor values, QUOTE " will 20K reduce the current to 4mA" the current reduces as you increase resistance in a linear fashion providing the voltage across the resistance remains the same. As I mentioned previously, use a pott (rheostat) in series with the JT's, + ve supply to adjust the draw. Hope all this helps.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: ibpointless2 on October 13, 2010, 06:21:46 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on October 12, 2010, 10:17:10 PM
Ibpointless:

I am not sure what could be wrong, it sounds as if you did the mod correctly. I had a lot of trouble lighting a cfl with any of my Fuji's for a while and when I finally got it to light, it was not all that bright. I did much better with the floro tubes and the leds.

Can you post for us a good close-up photo or two of your Fuji board? Maybe one of us here can see something wrong? We will try to help you as much as we can.

Stprue:

Yes, I remember seeing that video a while back. I never tried what he was demonstrating though.

Bill

@pirate
Thank you for your quick response! I figured it out when I was watching one of your videos, you removed a lot of components that I had not removed. I got it to work better but it seems lasersaber on youtube and you pirate I have gotten the most light and I was wondering if that was just a camera trick. I do believe that you did light up 400 leds but I think the camera makes the brightness more bright then what it really is in real life,but i could be wrong and I hope that iâ€™m wrong! If you made any special mods to yours could you please post a pic of all the things you did I would greatly appreciate it. The only reason why I need my setup very bright is that iâ€™m on the edge of achieving overunity, I already have the current setup running a lot longer on my batteries then before. Thank you! :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on October 13, 2010, 07:30:01 PM

ibpointless

when you go buy a camera.. look for the one that says quick snap.. or quick flash.. they have a different transformer in them..
so they charge for flash faster..
there the ones that light cfl's and 100's of leds..
but if you are handy with small things you can wind the primany of the regular fuji with 10-11 turns instead of 5-6..

the better camera's cost about a dollar more than the regular ones..

hope this helps

robbie

ps.. i forgot to add if you want some real power don't strip the board.. you can put a small cap in place of the big one and solder the snap buttons together and wire your cfl to the trigger coil and neg of battery..
then you have a very white cfl..
..secret so don't tell anyone..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on October 13, 2010, 11:54:27 PM

Hi folks, I'm finally able to access this website again, was not able to for a week. Well I checked back in the archives of this thread and found the information jeanna referred me to, it is on page #732. Here is quote from jeanna.

QuoteHi everybody,
I unwound the tor-61 which I was using for today's tests. This is 1 1/2 inch OD if that.
I wound it 4T,7T,74T and saw that I had over 600 volts at 20khz or so. This is great, because the frequency makes it quiet!!
It easily lit a neon and I stuck on the 10w cfl
Half of it lit.
Next, I lit the 7w tube. It was easy to light.
So, encouraged, I pulled out the 20w tube.
This is interesting, because it lit about 1/3 the tube, but it lit it all at the one end. I could let go, no problem, but it would not expand to fill the whole tube.
This is where some heat could probably help, but this is cold electricity and it must do it without heat.
I include 2 pix.
1- is the 7watt tube. Notice how close to the ends it fills the tube with light. (>600v)
2- is the 1/3 lit 20watt tube.
@Bill, way to go!
Isn't this sooo much fun?
jeanna

I cannot get my 1" diameter toroid to light a fuoro, though maybe it is too small, since jeanna was using a 1 1/2" toroid. I used 26 gauge secondary pickup about 70 turn and used 24 gauge 4 turn base and 7 turn collector and tried 25, 50, 100 and 150 ohm base resistance. Though my DMM set on 750vac shows that it is exceeding 750 volts because it is going off the scale, yet it still is not lighting any fluoro and I have some smaller fluoros, small tubes, small cf's that should light up. My only guess right now is that the core just is not big enough, or does not have the right characteristics. Any help appreciated. Of course my intention is too power leds, though would like to get a fluoro going. Thanks.
peace love light
Tyson ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on October 13, 2010, 11:56:38 PM

Oh and I tried an pnp tip42 and tip42c.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on October 14, 2010, 09:57:40 PM

Quote from: SkyWatcher123 on October 13, 2010, 11:54:27 PM
Hi folks, I'm finally able to access this website again, was not able to for a week. Well I checked back in the archives of this thread and found the information jeanna referred me to, it is on page #732. Here is quote from jeanna.I cannot get my 1" diameter toroid to light a fuoro, though maybe it is too small, since jeanna was using a 1 1/2" toroid. I used 26 gauge secondary pickup about 70 turn and used 24 gauge 4 turn base and 7 turn collector and tried 25, 50, 100 and 150 ohm base resistance. Though my DMM set on 750vac shows that it is exceeding 750 volts because it is going off the scale, yet it still is not lighting any fluoro and I have some smaller fluoros, small tubes, small cf's that should light up. My only guess right now is that the core just is not big enough, or does not have the right characteristics. Any help appreciated. Of course my intention is to power leds, though would like to get a fluoro going. Thanks.
peace love light
Tyson ;)

Hi Tyson,
I remember that I had to use a pair of 47uF caps in parallel with the battery to run the sketchy jt circuits.
I suggest this.
I also remember hazens used a cap ?? 100uF?? across the secondary leads.
I didn't find that a help, except one time when I had barely 425volts.

So, if you have not tried a capacitor, give that a try.
If you actually do have 450v, then you are very close.
Try adding a magnet to the connectors at the light.
Sometimes, I put a magnet at one or the other light end, then touch the light slowly down the bulb, then when it goes on it stays on, and I can even remove the magnets, once it is on.

The potentiometer might be a necessity.
Gadgetmall said it was. I have been able to use a straight resistor, but usually the tuning is so exact, the pot is better.

How s this circuit with a 20-28 led bulb meant for a 110v mains line? I bet it is great, and a lot brighter than the fluoro tube.

sorry for the silence. I have been busy away from my computer,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on October 14, 2010, 11:02:27 PM

Quote from: SkyWatcher123 on October 13, 2010, 11:54:27 PM
Hi folks, I'm finally able to access this website again, was not able to for a week. Well I checked back in the archives of this thread and found the information jeanna referred me to, it is on page #732. Here is quote from jeanna.I cannot get my 1" diameter toroid to light a fuoro, though maybe it is too small, since jeanna was using a 1 1/2" toroid. I used 26 gauge secondary pickup about 70 turn and used 24 gauge 4 turn base and 7 turn collector and tried 25, 50, 100 and 150 ohm base resistance. Though my DMM set on 750vac shows that it is exceeding 750 volts because it is going off the scale, yet it still is not lighting any fluoro and I have some smaller fluoros, small tubes, small cf's that should light up. My only guess right now is that the core just is not big enough, or does not have the right characteristics. Any help appreciated. Of course my intention is too power leds, though would like to get a fluoro going. Thanks.
peace love light
Tyson ;)

Tyson

I am not sure that it is possible to light a CFL with a one inch toroid.
You have more than enough voltage.
I would suggest tuning your toroid to a lower voltage....... around 450V
More primary windings may be a way to get there?

Did you try tuning the primary to the toroid when you first started?
If not .......try putting a few wraps on a toroid for a secondary ........then put on your primary with more turns then required.......then take off your primary winds one at a time while checking for voltage across your secondary.....
Once you have the best combination of turns on your primary you can take off the test secondary and put on a bigger secondary to get higher voltage.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on October 15, 2010, 06:35:04 AM

Hi folks, Hi resonanceman, thank you for that information. Hi jeanna, thank you for your reply as well.

QuoteHow s this circuit with a 20-28 led bulb meant for a 110v mains line? I bet it is great, and a lot brighter than the fluoro tube.

oh yes, it is surely adequate for my 20 led string, though I wanted to try and go a little brighter, so I took off the 26 gauge and put 120 turns of 24 gauge on it for pickup and it works even better, though the main reason is, I have no more 26 gauge on hand. Also I have to remove the 3 resistors in this string like I did the previous one and it will probably be as bright as plugged in the wall. it has 3-540ohm resistors in the string and i cant see any diodes that are obvious. Thanks, though i gave up on the fluoro with this small toroid, sounds too finicky anyway.
peace love light
Tyson

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on October 15, 2010, 10:43:16 AM

Guys:
An important consideration would be: can you get the same amount of Light using Leds on the Jt , than with a CFL light bulb. If so, is the higher voltage needed? Or can a useable amount of light be produced with lower and safer voltage using Leds.?
CFL bulbs put out a quality of light that I don't particularly like, as also do the Cool White Leds. Neither of the commercially made lights bulbs (Led or CFL) can be dimmed. But, if used along with the Jt, the bulbs (both types), can be dimmed. This is important (for me).
It would be great to see a Jt that can light up a 50 watt regular bulb, or even a 25 watt bulb, even for a minute.
I know that little flash light bulbs can be lit, but how about a regular 25 to 40 watt regular 110 volt, using a 12 volt Jt? Has anybody seen that done? Is it even possible, so far?
NickZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on October 15, 2010, 12:31:25 PM

Quote from: NickZ on October 15, 2010, 10:43:16 AM
Guys:
An important consideration would be: can you get the same amount of Light using Leds on the Jt , than with a CFL light bulb. If so, is the higher voltage needed? Or can a useable amount of light be produced with lower and safer voltage using Leds.?
CFL bulbs put out a quality of light that I don't particularly like, as also do the Cool White Leds. Neither of the commercially made lights bulbs (Led or CFL) can be dimmed. But, if used along with the Jt, the bulbs (both types), can be dimmed. This is important (for me).
It would be great to see a Jt that can light up a 50 watt regular bulb, or even a 25 watt bulb, even for a minute.
I know that little flash light bulbs can be lit, but how about a regular 25 to 40 watt regular 110 volt, using a 12 volt Jt? Has anybody seen that done? Is it even possible, so far?
NickZ

@NickZ Well so far the basic JT circuit is very limited in the amount of power it can deliver. Led's lend themselves ideally to these circuits because for a given amount of useful light output, the current demand can be very low...as can the source voltage. Typically under 3volts and lower. By stringing the led's in series the current remains the same, but as each led requires it's operating voltage then the more added the greater the voltage required. When you concider greater power demands for household filament lamps etc, then you need high voltage of course but also a higher operating current, hence voltage inverters using switched mode techniques. Lastly an unmodified CFL has it's own unique in built circuitry which is designed for use on either 110v 60Hz or 230v 50 Hz supplies! if you remove the internal driver circuits and leave just the CFL tube connections you will by careful tuning get it to light. The brightness may not necessary be ideal!! however I posted this photo here some time ago of my modified CFL lit up as you can see. Hope this helps you. Kind Regards Merv.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on October 15, 2010, 10:28:48 PM

@ Crowclaw and All:
Thanks for the reply. If one was to make a very powerful Jt circuit, and then be able to reduce the HV and bring up the current instead, using a transformer. So, lets say you have a Jt that can output 1000 volts, and you then convert that down to 120 volts (or to 12 volts), but now with higher amps. How many amps would you get? Has that it been done by anyone?
NZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 16, 2010, 12:26:50 AM

Nick:

Pardon my saying so but I think it is a fool's errand to try to light an Edison based bulb with a JT. There is way too much energy wasted in the form of heat for one thing. (Remember the easy-bake ovens from a while back? Bake a cake with a light bulb) You want light but are paying for heat as well. A lot of heat.

As Crowclaw has stated, the LEDs lend themselves to be lighted from this circuit. I can get way more light out of a bunch of leds, for a longer period of time than I ever could a cfl, or floro tube for that matter. I just wanted to light a cfl so I could say that I could. All of my efforts from now on will be with the leds.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on October 16, 2010, 02:52:08 AM

Bill: Thanks for your reply. That is what I thought, concerning the Leds compared to CFLs. But I thought that I'd ask in case someone had been able to light even regular 12 volt car bulbs with the Jt. I've seen the Tros youtube videos where he is lighting three small flashlight type bulbs. He does not use toroids coils. I though some one else may have been able to light a regular bulb. You never know...
Bill: Do you think that a possible solution to the Jt circuit losing resonance can be overcome by maintaining a fixed input voltage. Possibly the easiest way to do this is, using a solar panel that charges and maintains a big run battery that serves as a steady input source for the Jt. What do you think?
Nick

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 16, 2010, 03:09:58 AM

Nick:

I think that Crowclaw could answer this better than I could. The solar cell would be more constant than a battery....as long as the sun was shining. There might be a way to electronically adapt this to battery drain but, I do not know what that might be.

This is why we need good folks that think of good ideas and experiment with them. You never know.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on October 16, 2010, 03:19:21 AM

Quote from: NickZ on October 16, 2010, 02:52:08 AM
Bill: Thanks for your reply. That is what I thought, concerning the Leds compared to CFLs. But I thought that I'd ask in case someone had been able to light even regular 12 volt car bulbs with the Jt. I've seen the Tros youtube videos where he is lighting three small flashlight type bulbs. He does not use toroids coils. I though some one else may have been able to light a regular bulb. You never know...
Bill: Do you think that a possible solution to the Jt circuit losing resonance can be overcome by maintaining a fixed input voltage. Possibly the easiest way to do this is, using a solar panel that charges and maintains a big run battery that serves as a steady input source for the Jt. What do you think?
Nick

I did light some bulb s from the secondary on my JT , it is not the most efficient way to get light as Pirate mentioned but it is a great way to test your circuit with inductive loads something cfl and led can't do , i think the circuit can do more then light leds .

I use the same bulb as mopozco on his tros circuit , bu i do it from the secondary ...

http://www.youtube.com/user/abramrk1#p/u/9/wS935WyumjY

http://www.youtube.com/user/abramrk1#p/u/7/iz4pN-LybGo

http://www.youtube.com/user/abramrk1#p/u/6/eiLcbTBewhw

http://www.youtube.com/user/abramrk1#p/u/5/myZrCurW0uE

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on October 16, 2010, 04:40:47 AM

High NickZ
Your idea regarding transformer action using the high voltage primary JT side
with a separate wound secondary has of course been replicated hear many times over. Jeanna has several design using the secondary wind to drive a load. MK1 has just posted an example of using the secondary to light a torch bulb. Note also some brilliant variations he has put together building very efficient JT coils. Just goes to show how far some experimenters have gone in past threads. I would agree the JT still has plenty of ideas yet to be discovered, however the more circuitry you introduce around it the more complicated it becomes, and defeats the object past experimentation. The JT circuit is very similar to boost converters which can produce useful high voltage outputs from low voltage inputs. The difference hear is the drive oscillators are very stable waveforms and easier to design with predictable circuit values and parameters. So far most of the JT circuits have been applied to led lighting, from which the basic circuit principle is ideally suited... simple and cheap to replicate. The current draw and source voltages are extremely low. Jeanna and Bill have made good use of the JT circuits for led lighting applications. Not to mention the their experimental work in powering them up using alternative power sources. Earth batteries, solar power etc. There must be hundreds or thousands of disused garden solar lights being disposed of, as their internal batteries or circuits fail! If theses were retrieved, the solar panels could be put to very useful use. Build them up into a larger panel... charge up some cells. You can easily put a control regulator circuit together for your low JT source voltages. Anyway just a few ideas. Someone could publish a book out of this thread!! it's all exciting work. Regards Merv

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on October 16, 2010, 09:22:56 AM

@mk1

You did a great job with those coils!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on October 16, 2010, 11:40:53 AM

@ Mark:
Thanks for your reply.
If that can be done than with 2 volt bulbs running off of one AA, then with a 10 times stronger 12 volt system, maintained and kept up by a solar panel , that is connected to one or more Jt circuits, we should have no problem lighting 12 volt car bulbs, of like 5- 10 watts or higher current.
I know that its not as efficient as using Leds, but I do like the golden light alot better, and expecially if the battery recharging is free. Looks like the best light came off of the C and E off the transistor, (but it's hard to tell).
Thanks again for your comments and videos, I do appreciate them.
NZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on October 16, 2010, 01:28:52 PM

Merv:
I just saw your reply. Thanks for your comments.
I have seen most all videos on youtube concerning the Jt circuits, TPUs, etz... so I am familiar with what has been done. And I've also been following these threads for years.
Mostly I am interested in what has not been done. Like lighting ones house using a Jt technology, as in self running, self charging 12 volt Jt System that can light up a household with low voltage incandecent bulbs or warm whites Leds. The questions is, is it worth the extra work to accomplish it using the regular incandecent bulbs. Maybe it is a "Fools Errand" like Bill says... But CFLs and superbright cool white Leds are a very unpleasant lighting option for me, even if it were "free energy", but, possibly the warm white Leds will do.
NickZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on October 16, 2010, 02:44:36 PM

@all

Here is something we could use for many things

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoaLGvJkoP8&feature=fvw

;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on October 16, 2010, 05:42:56 PM

@all

Thanks for the positives comment . Now i have one affirmation to make ...

Working one the jt , i was never able to make a step down ration work always had more volts then 1.5 , now how do they make them ? The answer is to make a lousy circuit and parts ...

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on October 17, 2010, 12:09:41 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on October 16, 2010, 05:42:56 PM
@all

Working one the jt , i was never able to make a step down ration work always had more volts then 1.5 , now how do they make them ? The answer is to make a lousy circuit and parts ...

Mark

Mark

one of my projects deals with making low voltage power from a JT
I can't find where I read it but I found a good explination of how a Grey tube works.
The spark gap and the metal plated used as collectors just create impulses .......high voltage impulses ( like from a JT )
These impulses are then fed into a special transformer.
This transformer is center tapped.........on the input side you input the high voltage impulses.......IMPORTANT on the input side there is to be little or no current flow........Just alternating potential
The other side of the coil outputs low voltage high current POWER.
I am wondering if driving an ignition coil with a JT might work

I am currently working on a compact JT that does not need an expensive or hard to find toroid and can at least light a CFL

I will then work on modifying a similar coil for my center tapped Grey transformer.

Nick

It is a good challange to light a normal bulb .......but I agree with Bill........ LEDs are the way to go .........MUCH more efficient.
I know Jeanna likes the warm yellowish light too.........she adds a few yellow LEDs into the lights she makes.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mostie on October 17, 2010, 06:48:28 AM

Pirate, thanks for starting such a great thread, unfortunately in the last 2 weeks I've only got to page 79 ::)
So I'll catch up with you all..... sometime next year :P

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on October 17, 2010, 02:40:59 PM

Quote from: NickZ on October 15, 2010, 10:28:48 PM
@ Crowclaw and All:
Thanks for the reply. If one was to make a very powerful Jt circuit, and then be able to reduce the HV and bring up the current instead, using a transformer. So, lets say you have a Jt that can output 1000 volts, and you then convert that down to 120 volts (or to 12 volts), but now with higher amps. How many amps would you get? Has that it been done by anyone?
NZ

Hi NickZ,

I would like to add a few comments to the excellent answers already given.

I tried to make a step down light a tiny filament bulb a few months ago.
( ;) what is time? I think sometime in the summer)
I got a 5 volt christmas bulb to light for a half a second from a 1000v secondary.
I awoke today with an idea about this combined with kooler's excellent use of additional inductors in SERIES with the JT circuit at the battery, but I have not tried it.
In Patrick Kelly pdf volume 10 I saw a clear circuit drawing of the way to change the spikes to a smooth dc current out of the secondary. I kept asking for this a while ago and got no clear (to me) reply, so I suggest reading it.
[It was a bridge followed by a capacitor going to the output. I guess the cap needs to be just the right size.]
I want to try this because it might give the arrow to the next path to try.

QuoteMostly I am interested in what has not been done. Like lighting ones house using a Jt technology, as in self running, self charging 12 volt Jt System that can light up a household with low voltage incandecent bulbs or warm whites Leds. The questions is, is it worth the extra work to accomplish it using the regular incandecent bulbs. Maybe it is a "Fools Errand" like Bill says... But CFLs and superbright cool white Leds are a very unpleasant lighting option for me, even if it were "free energy", but, possibly the warm white Leds will do.
NickZ

Exactly!
I think we all are.
I learned a lot by the experiments I have done.
I am still wanting this and I imagine I will use my experience to get there.

As Gary mentioned I like the warm color added to the bright color.
It is remarkable how much difference it makes, but the warm led bulbs are so much dimmer, I am fiddling with adding the 2 together so I do not need to factor in how much light I lose when adding the warmth.

I was able to read for 3 hours when I added 5 series yellow leds to a 24 leds camping light. Neither was a jtc, so this is regular direct current lighting.

When using just the 24 leds camping light, I can barely see the page and can only read for 20 minutes max. So, I will be experimenting with a jtc with 2 secondaries. One with many white and the other with a few yellow.

-----

And finally,
I made a conical bifilar coil and found that when it was added to the secondary wires of a toroid the waveform was a ring.
It seems to self resonate.

The way I did this was I first made a jtc with secondary.
This secondary had only a few turns around the toroid.
Then, I made the conical coil with 2 wires and connected the end of one to the beginning of the other.
This is now a lot like the pancake coil.
I connected the beginning of one cone wire to one side of the secondary, and the other end to the other wire of the secondary.
This makes a conical coil that is being pulsed from the jt toroid as any other secondary is, but, the results while lower voltage ring.

I think this should be scaled up.
the cone of wires is really hard to make. and harder to show because it needs to be taped down or it springs away.

jeanna

edit
It was chapter 12 page24.
I took a screen shot.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on October 17, 2010, 05:54:37 PM

Jeanna:
Thanks for the very usefull information about the warm whites being dimmer. Maybe, then the 12 volt Warm Whites would be the bulbs to use, for more light. The 12v warm whites (Straw Hat) 140 degree, come in 0.5 watt, 1.0 watt, 3 watt, 10 watt sizes. I have not gotten my hands on any yet. I may have to order some from Ebay or...
http://cgi.ebay.com/20-PC-0-5-Watt-StrawHat-8mm-140-WARM-White-LED-90Kmcd-/250448852092?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a4fea347c
Has anybody tried them? I'm not concerned about their higher current consumption, as I plan on providing steady input to the run batteries (or caps) and to the Jtc, from adequate solar panel(s). Although I'm still very interested in a device that self runs, even without the solar panel. Possibly by just using a single run capacitor to start and run, and also self charge itself , with no second charge batteries, at all. Yes... No?
Nick

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 17, 2010, 11:36:39 PM

Quote from: Mostie on October 17, 2010, 06:48:28 AM
Pirate, thanks for starting such a great thread, unfortunately in the last 2 weeks I've only got to page 79 ::)
So I'll catch up with you all..... sometime next year :P

Mostie:

Thank you for your kind words but, the credit belongs to all that have participated, experimented and shared here, and are still doing so.

I do not envy your reading from the beginning but, there is a lot of great info there as well as detailed, successful experiments done by our many members. You can also follow our paths to discovery as we learned newer and better ways to make the JT what it is at this moment. This all started with the MK-1 circuit.

Welcome to our group.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on October 18, 2010, 12:15:20 AM

Quote from: NickZ on October 17, 2010, 05:54:37 PM
Jeanna:
Thanks for the very usefull information about the warm whites being dimmer. Maybe, then the 12 volt Warm Whites would be the bulbs to use, for more light. The 12v warm whites (Straw Hat) 140 degree, come in 0.5 watt, 1.0 watt, 3 watt, 10 watt sizes. I have not gotten my hands on any yet. I may have to order some from Ebay or...
http://cgi.ebay.com/20-PC-0-5-Watt-StrawHat-8mm-140-WARM-White-LED-90Kmcd-/250448852092?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a4fea347c
Has anybody tried them? I'm not concerned about their higher current consumption, as I plan on providing steady input to the run batteries (or caps) and to the Jtc, from adequate solar panel(s). Although I'm still very interested in a device that self runs, even without the solar panel. Possibly by just using a single run capacitor to start and run, and also self charge itself , with no second charge batteries, at all. Yes... No?
Nick

Nick

I have not tried those particular LEDs
I just got some of these.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390226502032
I chose 10mm because I think they will dissipate the heat better than a smaller sized LED.

I have not built anything with them yet.......

About your self charging system.
I do think it is possible....... but lets not start using the OU word alot around here.
If you claim over unity the OU vultures swoop in and take over the thread........they make lots of requests and spend alot of time telling why there viewpoint is the only one that can possibly work.

A typical vulture request goes something like this........of course I am paraphrasing a little. " would you please do these expensive and time consuming tests ? I want to discredit you and make you look like a fool but I don't want to spend my own time and money doing it.... "

Quite a while ago I spent months playing with adding extra coils and feeding the output from them back to the battery.
I got it to recharge ...........but it usually took about 9 extra coils...... it also was not stable........ I had to adjust the resistance of my pot every few hours to keep it self charging.
I now believe I know why that adjustment was needed.........and I am working on a more compact design.

I hope that you keep working on it.
JTs create lots of back EMF.......conventional education will teach you how to avoid the back EMF but it will not teach you how to use it to your advantage.

If you wish to experiment with the feedback stuff I have just talked about........ start with a good strong JT.......then drive a load with it......I usually used a LED array...
Then try adding inductors in series between the JT and the load.
Each inductor should have a secondary.... the secondary will be hooked to a bridge ......the bridge then connected back to the battery.
I used a meter on both the JTs secondary voltage and the battery voltage.
After I had put 8 or 9 inductors into the circuit both the battery voltage and the secondary voltage both start to rise.
Keeping the power level low seemed to raise the effiency of the circuit.........
I hope to get it down to one coil for the JT and one coil for feedback........

One thing........do not try the feedback circuit with no load..............for it to work you MUST have a good current flowing through the extra coils.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on October 18, 2010, 12:51:32 AM

Gary:
You just blew my fuse... I'll have to reset and let it soak in...
NZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on October 18, 2010, 01:15:34 AM

Quote from: NickZ on October 18, 2010, 12:51:32 AM
Gary:
You just blew my fuse... I'll have to reset and let it soak in...
NZ

Nick

:)

Reset..........then experment

:)

The basics of self charging are probably much simpler than you think..........
Just experiment.....try any coil............most of the coils I used were JT coils..............but I also had luck with small transformers and other assorted coils

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on October 18, 2010, 04:40:48 AM

@ All, Just a quick tip... Rather than use conventional bridge rectifiers, select ultra fast switching diodes and make up a bridge with them. These devices are specifically used for handling fast switching pulses, and therefore can be more efficient. Yes I know standard bridges work, but these are much better at HF. Also remember for very low voltage applications were a few millivolts matter, use schottky diodes... they have a lesser forward voltage drop than conventional diodes. Lastly... the larger capacitance values used after a bridge circuit_the longer it takes to charge! this may or may not matter in your particular experiment, but if you are just smoothing out pulses of high frequency then low capacitance values are adequate. Low frequency ripple at 50Hz/60Hz as in conventional power supply circuits however...> 1000uf values are used. Experiment with values in the range of <0.1uf > 10uf. Scrap computer power supplies can provide a wealth of useful parts for your experiments... possibly at no costs. Merv

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on October 18, 2010, 11:58:31 AM

Resonanceman & Crowclaw and all:
Thanks so much for all your very usefull information.
I have several test Jtc that I'm working on. I already am charging and lighting and feeding back to the source (positive on the charge battery). I do feel that the diode (In4007) is taking more than it needs to. I see that once the batteries drop in voltage the Jt is not doing hardly anything in the circuit, so it's important to keep the input voltage steady or resonance is lost.
I will try the schottky diodes, sounds like the thing to do there. Also will build the 4 diode bridge rectifier.
I would like to simplify the Jt circuit, and avoid if possible having to use two batteries, and just feed-back to recharge a single run cap or battery. Then just rectify the power through a bridge, and out to load.
Although I live on what feels like an island, there are some parts available here. I do have several Pc power supplies, and backup power supplies to take parts off of, also.

Ok, I've reset... back to the laboratory (kitchen table). Yes, I have permision to use it from my wife. Not to worry.

Although I sound like the newby that I am, I have worked in the electronics industry (PCB) for over 15 years, but, I'm not concerned about the term OU, nor did I mention or imply it. Although, Tapping into the Source, is a lost art...

Yesterday I watched a newer Youtube video made by IST. Yes, he's still at it. He made a Big Joule Thief using a Tv
high voltage ferrite core to wind his circuit on. It's a pretty involved device, and very interesting video to watch, as he has improved his style. I'll send the link in my next post.
I know he's on read-only. I hope that it's ok to mention it.
NZ
PS. Below is a picture of my
reset zone.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on October 18, 2010, 11:32:38 PM

i just bought two of those 3000 farad caps from goldmine
and wow the power they hold..
the 650 farad that i blew up has nothing on these..
i thought i could charge them up and discharge thru a transformer.. and melted the wire off both ends of the transformer..hahaha
hahaha..
so i figured i use them in the earth battery for my 23 led lights that was once solar lites..
i think i figured out the kapanze device.. which if i am even close is a don smith res device..
i was trying to go to my fox hole and fell down the steps and broke my f'in nose..
my little girl was laughing till she saw i was bleeding.. so i know she is mine.. haha
the dr. ask me if i was drinking to fall down steps.. i said well.. .. .. lol
then he said you have 3 blown discs what was you doing going down stairs..
told him i had a addiction.. energy..
and he said yeah that solar stuff is kool.. he has no idea.. but he is a good dr.
i thinking of putting a small utility building in the yard to do my energy stuff..
but i will keep you guys posted ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 19, 2010, 12:33:32 AM

kooler:

Wow! I hope you are now on the mend. We should not have to sacrifice our bodies for free energy but, we all do appreciate your dedication, ha ha.

Yes, I want to get a few of those large caps myself. They do hold a lot of power and there is no telling what we might do with them.

Get well soon.

Bill

PS Great work on the Kapanadze circuit. Could you please post your results over there on the topic I started on Kapanadze as the word is out and they are very interested. I don't care what you post here, it is not about that, it is just that those folks are interested in your statement, as am I.

Thanks,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on October 19, 2010, 03:59:06 AM

kooler: Sorry to hear about your fall... glad your ok. But in future, before going into the den, take more water with it!! Take care....... regards merv

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on October 19, 2010, 07:38:24 AM

Is it possible to use a JT instead of the neon tube driver as Don Smith says in his circuit and feeds those coils?
Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on October 20, 2010, 05:38:19 PM

Here is something that might be helpful

My first tests show that adding an extra resistor or pot makes a better tank

The capacitor that seems to work best for me most of the time is .1uF
I have gotten strong resonance with the second resistor being as high as 10K

I have not yet tried the extra resistor with Gadgitmals tank...... I think it will work......not sure if it will improve it.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on October 21, 2010, 02:21:41 AM

:) Hi, has anyone tried the cheaper chinese 200 Farad super caps (100,000 cycles) $11.60 each ????

are the "D" size 350 Farad Maxwell (500,000 cycles) caps any good ????

thanks.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 21, 2010, 03:50:39 PM

Freepow:

I have not. But, Goldmine has those 3,000 F boostcaps for only twice what you would pay for the caps you listed. About $25.00 US I believe, a much better deal. Plus, boostcaps can be put in series or parallel in any number where as regular supercaps are limited to 3 I believe.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on October 21, 2010, 06:42:48 PM

@all

I just wanted to share with you a post i made on another tread ...

I believe that its all vibration , let me try to explain my self .

We can all agree that most levels of reality , galaxies , solar system , atom , etc , share behavior and content mostly void .

I state that for those system to exist they have to be harmonious , first freq root (the galaxy )makes the law for all sub system (solar,planets, atom) must operate under it since it is responsible for physical property .

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2236988281579535067#

This is a demonstration , where you can clearly see my point .

We also vibrate in harmony with earth , because we are the salt , living in a world of salt .

earth is in tune with the solar system etc , harmony at each levels , god made a sound first .

Once that is in place , we see that we are sub system's living on the edge of planet system , and composed infinite sub system living in a infinite system world .

The vacuum , like in this demonstration

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6B8eK68AIg

The bottle is filled with water on the first try he did not succeed in creating a air pocket at the both of the bottle , once he did the bottle breaks apart , because of the void at the bottom is not coming from the top and has no air (vacuum) bang . To me this is analog to bemf , reaction from creating a void in a existing stationary field creating energy .

Next root of sub systems ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17tqXgvCN0E

Exposing a glass to its own roots freq , releases the energy ..

I hope this time i made more sense , i did not take physics but my model is sound , ;D.

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mostie on October 23, 2010, 05:47:31 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on October 17, 2010, 11:36:39 PM
Mostie:

Thank you for your kind words but, the credit belongs to all that have participated, experimented and shared here, and are still doing so.

I do not envy your reading from the beginning but, there is a lot of great info there as well as detailed, successful experiments done by our many members. You can also follow our paths to discovery as we learned newer and better ways to make the JT what it is at this moment. This all started with the MK-1 circuit.

Welcome to our group.

Bill

thanks Bill, yes very knowledgeable people on here, only wish i had been there from the start, a lot of catching up to do, haven't done any tinkering with circuits since school days :'(
However a cunning plan is hatching to light my newly build shed. :)

M

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on October 23, 2010, 05:59:54 AM

@kooler

I do expect that you are recovered from your accident.
My question is:
Can you share the knowledge you found out about the kapanadze circuit with us?

I ask this because you posted earlier that you had figured it out.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on October 23, 2010, 08:25:47 AM

Thanks Pirate !

@ Anyone, Just say I had a solar cell giving a constant voltage of 2.3v @ 90 mA, how many minutes would it take to charge a 200 Farad supercap ????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jagadhariseno on October 23, 2010, 08:33:26 AM

Hi All,
I'm just curious, is the coil of Joule Thief going cooler (cooling effect)?

cheers.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on October 23, 2010, 09:55:33 AM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on October 23, 2010, 05:59:54 AM
@kooler

I do expect that you are recovered from your accident.
My question is:
Can you share the knowledge you found out about the kapanadze circuit with us?

I ask this because you posted earlier that you had figured it out.

Jesus

i said (i think i figured it out..) but when i get time to test it i will post it in the other section..
i have to strip down one my other setups to get the wire that i will need..
i think it is more of the sr193 device rather than the kapanadze..
but either one will be nice to have..

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on October 23, 2010, 02:01:47 PM

Thank you @kooler

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on October 25, 2010, 01:27:57 AM

:) @ All

I just tried this quick charger with green led using 2xAA batteries charging up a 55F Cap,
when the resistor was at zero "K" the Cap started charging, as soon as it reached 1.8v,
the green led lit up, so then we turned up the 1K pot to around 250 Ohm and the green led
did not light up till the Cap reached about 2.0v, so this works great for a charger that lights up
when Cap is full (depending on how high you want the 1k pot turned for the voltage on Cap)

Anyhow in the picture on the right, I want to be able to switch B & C off from charge (A) when
the cap is full, so the green led wont draw current from the Cap anymore, then I can use the
charged Cap to power a JouleThief ! Does anyone know of a switch like that ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on October 25, 2010, 04:37:15 PM

Hi Freepow,

What happens if you connect these open ends to a joule thief circuit?
I get turned around with things sometimes ( ;D )
but it seems to me the jt transistor will be turning the battery off and the cap will fill because it is easier until it gets to the voltage to pass through the led, but before that the jtc should kick in.

Maybe a higher resistance would make it easier to tell?

Interesting question,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 25, 2010, 05:09:58 PM

I posted some photos of this device a few pages back, but I finally got around to making the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXojlhIEMro (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXojlhIEMro)

This is another practical application for the JT circuit. It is helping my Mom recognize that her door is locked and the battery life so far is fantastic.

I have not had much time to do much of anything in the way of experiments lately but finally, I was able to make this short video.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on October 26, 2010, 08:39:19 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on October 25, 2010, 05:09:58 PM

This is another practical application for the JT circuit. It is helping my Mom recognize that her door is locked and the battery life so far is fantastic.

I have not had much time to do much of anything in the way of experiments lately but finally, I was able to make this short video.

Bill

Excellent work Bill... Well done. Merv

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 26, 2010, 03:48:18 PM

Merv:

Thank you, I really appreciate that. It is simple, and it works.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Flux4Energizer on October 27, 2010, 09:03:13 AM

@all,

I have uploaded a new video on youtube showing my new circuit.
The COP calculation i made using the measurements that i took in the video came out to be 1.42 at that time. Normally this would be well over 1.5 but 1.42 isn't bad also i think.

Maybe you guys have some ideas or comments for me.
The link to the video is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4vG_vGIhmo

Regards,

Flux 4 Energizer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on October 27, 2010, 09:21:06 AM

@pirate

Good idea for your mother to remember.

@flux4energizer

You must have more patience and wait for the meter to stabilize, then jot down exactly the number shown.

Keep the good work.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Flux4Energizer on October 27, 2010, 10:27:28 AM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on October 27, 2010, 09:21:06 AM
@flux4energizer

You must have more patience and wait for the meter to stabilize, then jot down exactly the number shown.

Keep the good work.

Jesus

Thank you for your comment.
I'll attach some clips to the meters probe so i won't have to hold them in my next video.

Regards,

Flux

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: teslaalset on October 27, 2010, 04:06:40 PM

Quote from: Flux4Energizer on October 27, 2010, 09:03:13 AM
@all,

I have uploaded a new video on youtube showing my new circuit.
The COP calculation i made using the measurements that i took in the video came out to be 1.42 at that time. Normally this would be well over 1.5 but 1.42 isn't bad also i think.

Maybe you guys have some ideas or comments for me.
The link to the video is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4vG_vGIhmo

Regards,

Flux 4 Energizer

Hi Flux,

Did you only measure current?
COP is about power out/in ....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Flux4Energizer on October 28, 2010, 12:25:51 PM

Quote from: teslaalset on October 27, 2010, 04:06:40 PM
Hi Flux,

Did you only measure current?
COP is about power out/in ....

@teslaalset

Yes in the video i only measure current, but on the list you can see the applying voltages which go with that current. So in fact i measured amperage as well as voltage, but even if i didn't measure the voltage you can see the efficientie because of the loading batteries!!!

@all

Yesterday i made another coil / core (i didn't count the turns on the used core) but it didn't give me a good result. So i think the size of the core and the number of turns is very important!?! I didn't count the turns because i was just fiddeling around and stumbled on this effect with the coil used in the video. I will give it another try tonight, i'll try to make yet another coil / core and test it in the used circuit.

Regards,

Flux

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Flux4Energizer on October 29, 2010, 02:08:19 AM

@All

Yesterday (this night actually) i made a few coils / cores and this time counted all turns. I finally got a core / coil config which gave me the wanted result!!! ;D It's not as good as the initial core / coil setup but i'm happy with it. I almost was afraid i couldn't replicate the setup at all and began to think it was the core or just plain old luck. But like i said i did manage to replicate a core / coil config. COP isn't that good tho i did a very rough and quick measurement and came at > 1.15.

Well after my vacation i'll draw the circuit and give the core / coil specs.

Regards,

Flux

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: shylo on November 05, 2010, 06:52:01 PM

Hi all been doing lots of reading about the JT circut....JT 101 mostly trying to digest all the info .....built my 1st .....it didn't work at all...I used a transistor out of an old stereo, as well as the resistor .....my ferrite core is a ring magnet from a speaker..........because core should have high permability........how much higher can you get.....just curious as to what is the best design to date .....an update page every once in a while on the best construct would be a definate asset......no sense in re-inventing the wheel .....I'm on dial-up so it takes forever to load a single page ,worst when their's pics...Q where can I salvage a decent ferrite core?...thanx for any help ....shylo

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on November 05, 2010, 08:25:45 PM

Quote from: shylo on November 05, 2010, 06:52:01 PM
Hi all been doing lots of reading about the JT circut....JT 101 mostly trying to digest all the info .....built my 1st .....it didn't work at all...I used a transistor out of an old stereo, as well as the resistor .....my ferrite core is a ring magnet from a speaker..........because core should have high permability........how much higher can you get.....just curious as to what is the best design to date .....an update page every once in a while on the best construct would be a definate asset......no sense in re-inventing the wheel .....I'm on dial-up so it takes forever to load a single page ,worst when their's pics...Q where can I salvage a decent ferrite core?...thanx for any help ....shylo

the best ferrite core i ever got were from a car audio amp.. then the next best is from a computer power supply the small toroids that have the white plastic covers..
the speaker magnets don't work good at all.. magnets and steel cores need alot of windings to work..

the small toroids you find in the small cfl bulbs like 9 watt have weird colors like orange and green are good also but very small..

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on November 05, 2010, 11:53:43 PM

Quote from: shylo on November 05, 2010, 06:52:01 PM
Hi all been doing lots of reading about the JT circut....JT 101 mostly trying to digest all the info .....built my 1st .....it didn't work at all...I used a transistor out of an old stereo, as well as the resistor .....my ferrite core is a ring magnet from a speaker..........because core should have high permability........how much higher can you get.....just curious as to what is the best design to date .....an update page every once in a while on the best construct would be a definate asset......no sense in re-inventing the wheel .....I'm on dial-up so it takes forever to load a single page ,worst when their's pics...Q where can I salvage a decent ferrite core?...thanx for any help ....shylo

Shylo

The best JT for one thing probably will not be the best for another use.
If you have something in particular you want to do with a JT then maybe someone will be ablwe to help you with a specific design.

About where to salvage a good core for a JT
How much do you know about electronics and safety with high voltages?
If you know enough about high voltages to take the proper precocions
you can use the flyback transformer in old TVs or Monitors
These make great JTs and there big enough you can do stuff like light light up a CFL ........ The first time I lit a CFL it was with a flyback transformer.
If you do not understand the dangers involved in taking old TVs apart do not mess with them without someone to show you how to ground the high voltage before you start taking them apart.
The picture tube can hold a strong enough charge to kill you........they can sometimes hold this charge for years.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on November 06, 2010, 01:34:57 AM

@ Resonanceman and All:
Has anyone tried using the big 3" ferrite toroid cores that are found in the back of the crt Tv picture tubes, for use in a Jtc?
Suppose that we wanted to be able to light up many Leds. Lets say, 10 Led bulbs like the -Lights of America- bulbs, that use 30 or more leds in each bulb (or led panel), for a total of 300 or so, individual leds, with each led being 20mA, 3v. How would you build a Jtc (high or low voltage), to best accomplish something like that?... Or, would it be better to use a 12v Jt circuit, with 12v battery, run caps, etz...
I'd like to avoid dangerously high voltage. Prefer cool radiant pulse circuits.
NickZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on November 06, 2010, 02:04:19 AM

Quote from: NickZ on November 06, 2010, 01:34:57 AM
@ Resonanceman and All:
Has anyone tried using the big 3" ferrite toroid cores that are found in the back of the crt Tv picture tubes, for use in a Jtc?
Suppose that we wanted to be able to light up many Leds. Lets say, 10 Led bulbs like the -Lights of America- bulbs, that use 30 or more leds in each bulb (or led panel), for a total of 300 or so, individual leds, with each led being 20mA, 3v. How would you build a Jtc (high or low voltage), to best accomplish something like that?... Or, would it be better to use a 12v Jt circuit, with 12v battery, run caps, etz...
I'd like to avoid dangerously high voltage. Prefer cool radiant pulse circuits.
NickZ

NickZ

I have never tried the core on the yoke of TV tube as a JT
I believe IST tried them .......he suggested that I try them...but I never got around to it.

I am not sure if they are actrually ferrite.......but it probably doesn't matter. If they are ferrite they will run with less windings.
There is plenty of room for more windings if they are iron.

As far as lighting 400 LEDs ..........I assume you mean to full or near full brightness.
It might be difficult to do with just 1.5 V ....... you can light them pretty well with one battery ......but I think full brightness would be dificult

The yoke core might be a good thing to try for this ........a flyback transformer core might work well too.

I know I have never been able to get that much power out of a single 5 for $1 toroid.........but maybe it can be done.

Personally I would use a candy cane coil........ I use them for most of my experments.
I don't remember anyone else every saying anything about having made one.... but I find them very useful........and they can be scaled........if it doesn't have enough power.........just add more toroids.
I am about out of time tonight.
I will try to take some time and see what it will do with LEDs
I think I have 400 LED christmas tree lights.....
I will try to post a picture tomorrow evening

gary

As for 12 V
I use 12 V quite a bit.
it is MUCH easier to light a CFL with 12 V than 1.5

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 06, 2010, 06:14:31 AM

Nick:

You can easily light 400 leds from a modified Fuji circuit. It has been done many times. Also, this was done with a "dead" AA battery at way less than 1.5 volts.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on November 06, 2010, 01:40:41 PM

Guys:
Thanks for the replies.
I'll be getting a solar panel and a couple of smaller 12v batteries to work with soon as possible. But the idea is to make a big strong JT-TPU circuit that is feeding back to the run batteries, or run caps, and eventually not needing the battery-solar panel support. Since once the Jtc drops in its run battery voltage, it is not working properly, if not kept at a constant optimum running frequency. There is no circuit that can work Properly like that, if not kept at a constant input level.
I have been trying different transistors, resistors, diodes, pots, caps, toroids, Leds, etz... trying to find the winning combination. It seams like a simple quest, but it's not.
What keeps me hard at it , is the idea that a self running joule thief is more than possible, and that it can be upgraded.
Otto had said that what makes solid state components interesting is the fact that sometimes they can be fooled...
NickZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on November 06, 2010, 10:07:36 PM

Quote from: NickZ on November 06, 2010, 01:40:41 PM
Guys:
Thanks for the replies.
I'll be getting a solar panel and a couple of smaller 12v batteries to work with soon as possible. But the idea is to make a big strong JT-TPU circuit that is feeding back to the run batteries, or run caps, and eventually not needing the battery-solar panel support. Since once the Jtc drops in its run battery voltage, it is not working properly, if not kept at a constant optimum running frequency. There is no circuit that can work Properly like that, if not kept at a constant input level.
I have been trying different transistors, resistors, diodes, pots, caps, toroids, Leds, etz... trying to find the winning combination. It seams like a simple quest, but it's not.
What keeps me hard at it , is the idea that a self running joule thief is more than possible, and that it can be upgraded.
Otto had said that what makes solid state components interesting is the fact that sometimes they can be fooled...
NickZ

NickZ

You might want to keep an eye on my UCVC thread .....what I am working on there is very similar about what you talked about in this post.

I agree it is not as simple as it seems like it should be.
I played with flyback and feedback a few years ago.
I was able to keep the source battery charging as long as I was willing to tweak the base resistor every few hours.

Now I know a little more .
As the battery voltage rises.........the JT primary voltages rises too.......part of the problem is the JT primary voltage rises faster than the battery voltage.
So far I have only got to the self charging state at low power levels......If the power level goes up a little to high......the self charging stops.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: poynt99 on November 07, 2010, 01:22:14 PM

I don't know if this has been noted here by anyone yet, but I thought the JT people might find this patent interesting.

.99

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hidave on November 08, 2010, 05:33:12 AM

Quote from: resonanceman on November 06, 2010, 02:04:19 AM
NickZ

I have never tried the core on the yoke of TV tube as a JT
I believe IST tried them .......he suggested that I try them...but I never got around to it.

I am not sure if they are actrually ferrite.......but it probably doesn't matter. If they are ferrite they will run with less windings.
There is plenty of room for more windings if they are iron.

As far as lighting 400 LEDs ..........I assume you mean to full or near full brightness.
It might be difficult to do with just 1.5 V ....... you can light them pretty well with one battery ......but I think full brightness would be dificult

The yoke core might be a good thing to try for this ........a flyback transformer core might work well too.

I know I have never been able to get that much power out of a single 5 for $1 toroid.........but maybe it can be done.

Personally I would use a candy cane coil........ I use them for most of my experments.
I don't remember anyone else every saying anything about having made one.... but I find them very useful........and they can be scaled........if it doesn't have enough power.........just add more toroids.
I am about out of time tonight.
I will try to take some time and see what it will do with LEDs
I think I have 400 LED christmas tree lights.....
I will try to post a picture tomorrow evening

gary

As for 12 V
I use 12 V quite a bit.
it is MUCH easier to light a CFL with 12 V than 1.5

I found a ferrite cone core from tv deflection yoke.

Big 5" O.D, 1.75" I.D. and 2.25" tall. It has 2 windings on each side, several hundred turns of 24 gauge.

I want to use this to light to full brightness 100w gutted spiral CFL (several) from 12v 220ah deep cycle battery. This battery is hooked up to 200w solar panel and I get about 6 sun hours.

What will be a good JT circuit to use?. I see many small JT that lights 13w CFL to full brightness and drawing 300 mili amp. What is the draw on a gutted 100w CFL in full brightness?.

Thanks. :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on November 08, 2010, 03:28:12 PM

Hello hidave,

I did a lot of experiments with the Joule Thief and CFLs.

To light a 13 Watt CFL to its full potential brightness you have to push 13 Watt through it. You can do that conventionally (with the circuit in the CFL for 110V or 220V) or with a Joule Thief, but you can not avoid 13 Watt. If you push less power than 13 Watt through a 13 Watt CFL it will be less bright.

It is kind of difficult to run a Joule Thief circuit with more than 6 Volt because the transistor over heats easily. The transistor is driven into saturation (by high Voltage on the base) and the Voltage over emitter-collector rises to more than 100 Volt (which is too much for most transistors).

Read this web site to learn about circuits to drive high voltage transformers with a 10 to 40 Volt power supply http://wiki.4hv.org/index.php/Flyback#High_Power_Drivers .

One needs two transistors and a zero voltage switching technique to avoid overheating of the transistors. The above web side talks a bout fly back transformers, but this also applies to Joule Thief type coils.

Also observe the diodes and zener diodes in the proposed circuits, which limit and rectify the voltage (coming from the sense coils) on the base of the transistors so that the transistors stay in their intended region of operation.

See this web page about regions of operation of a transistor:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bipolar_junction_transistor#Regions_of_operation

The Joule thief circuit is good for supply voltages between 1 and 4 Volt, but then it becomes more complicated. With a 1 to 4 Volt power supply one can reach very high voltages on a properly built secondary. I managed up to 2000 Volt with big air coils. But this becomes impractical. Many things can be done with a Joule Thief but very soon the transistor overheats. I had good success with Joule Thieves driving up to 100 LEDs with a 1.5 or 3 Volt power supply.

But once you have a 12 Volt power supply it is better to drive the LEDs directly from this 12 Volts, no Joule Thief necessary.

It is a myth that a Joule Thief circuit somehow generates more power than you push into it. In fact it looses power in the form of heat in the coils, in the transistor and in the resistor. But one accepts this loss because one can light many LEDs with a 1.5 Volt battery.

Many people do not realise that modern white LEDs driven with the intended power (specified by the manufacturer) are so bright that you can not look at them directly. And if you drive them with a Joule Thief they light brightly, but much less than they could shine (when given the specified amount of power instead of the reduced intermittent power from the Joule Thief). So, many people think the Joule Thief saves power.

One thing one could claim: it is not desirable to drive LEDs with maximum power, because they hurt your eyes. So, driving them with reduced power via a Joule Thief looks nicer.

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on November 08, 2010, 04:15:12 PM

Quote from: conradelektro on November 08, 2010, 03:28:12 PM
t is a myth that a Joule Thief circuit somehow generates more power than you push into it. In fact it looses power in the form of heat in the coils, in the transistor and in the resistor. But one accepts this loss because one can light many LEDs with a 1.5 Volt battery.

there are many people in this thread who are well aware that a simple blocking oscillator is not OU. the jt is a simple old circuit that was cleverly applied to the purpose of using the energy left in a 'dead' battery. i agree, the transformer seems to mystify those who don't understand volts, amps and joules. it's a great circuit for flashlights and other things that run on low voltage and don't mind 'noise'...

Quote from: conradelektro on November 08, 2010, 03:28:12 PM
Many people do not realise that modern white LEDs driven with the intended power (specified by the manufacturer) are so bright that you can not look at them directly. And if you drive them with a Joule Thief they light brightly, but much less than they could shine (when given the specified amount of power instead of the reduced intermittent power from the Joule Thief). So, many people think the Joule Thief saves power.

to be specific and precise, leds driven with a pulse, are more efficient than being driven by a dc supply. two words... duty cycle.

edit: corrected. i had misread conrad's post. my apologies conrad.

Title: Loosen the Thief
Post by: hidave on November 08, 2010, 08:41:14 PM

@conrad ;D

thanks for the reinforcement of the doctorines.

Back to basic. I hook up a 13w CFL to the house electrical with my trusty meter. Readings is I=.21, V=120, P=25W, R=566 ohms.

Now with a basic fuji camera JT, I have a gutted 13w CFL powered by AAA battery. Readings is I=.3, V=1.5, P=.675W, R=13 ohms.

Wow, quite a difference. Now moving to a Jeanna's CFL JT with 3.5" ferrite toroid, I am able to light the CFL to full brightness with .2 amp draw.

But who wants to fiddle with little lights right.?.

If transistors burns it is because of their limiting and linear nature.

Back to basic, E=flow of electrons through a conductor right? ;) ROLF

So if we can light a 13w CFL with 3% P using JT versus conventional then why can't we scale it up to more usable real world applications?.
Solar panels are now affordable, Deep cycle Batteries can be had for free.

The solution is simple, Tesla coil. Good old pancake tesla coil. Simple, proven, robust.
Lidmotor has a cool video of cfl excited by a mini Tesla. :)
http://www.youtube.com/user/Lidmotor#p/u/20/DydhosayGLg

What a waste of time, $$ and energy. Tesla already showed us the way. Use high potential high frequency to excite our lights.

Now comes the question. What is the difference between flat pancake tesla coil and tower tesla coil in terms of performance?.

Now we have to construct this coil accordingly to how Tesla had instructed. Copper coated iron wires with cotton insulation.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: magnetman12003 on November 09, 2010, 12:41:22 AM

Hi Guys,

Can you take a look at this circuit and give me an idea if its worth further looking into. I am running it on one 1.5 volt AA alkaline battery and have not killed the battery yet. The power used is a fraction of one watt. The input power is also a fraction of one watt. All components are rather large.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQ_fKHjDo0E

Tom

Title: Re: Loosen the Thief
Post by: resonanceman on November 09, 2010, 01:43:34 AM

Quote from: hidave on November 08, 2010, 08:41:14 PM
@conrad ;D

thanks for the reinforcement of the doctorines.

Back to basic. I hook up a 13w CFL to the house electrical with my trusty meter. Readings is I=.21, V=120, P=25W, R=566 ohms.

Now with a basic fuji camera JT, I have a gutted 13w CFL powered by AAA battery. Readings is I=.3, V=1.5, P=.675W, R=13 ohms.

Wow, quite a difference. Now moving to a Jeanna's CFL JT with 3.5" ferrite toroid, I am able to light the CFL to full brightness with .2 amp draw.

But who wants to fiddle with little lights right.?.

If transistors burns it is because of their limiting and linear nature.

Back to basic, E=flow of electrons through a conductor right? ;) ROLF

So if we can light a 13w CFL with 3% P using JT versus conventional then why can't we scale it up to more usable real world applications?.
Solar panels are now affordable, Deep cycle Batteries can be had for free.

The solution is simple, Tesla coil. Good old pancake tesla coil. Simple, proven, robust.
Lidmotor has a cool video of cfl excited by a mini Tesla. :)
http://www.youtube.com/user/Lidmotor#p/u/20/DydhosayGLg

What a waste of time, $$ and energy. Tesla already showed us the way. Use high potential high frequency to excite our lights.

Now comes the question. What is the difference between flat pancake tesla coil and tower tesla coil in terms of performance?.

Now we have to construct this coil accordingly to how Tesla had instructed. Copper coated iron wires with cotton insulation.

hidave

I do not think a Tesla coil will get you where you want to go.......and I am not convenced that cotton insulation is required.........although copper coated iron wire does sound interesting.
A Tesla coil as I understand it has to be loosely coupled in order for the secondary to run at high frequency. This loose coupling makes it inefficient
WIth that said....... with the exception of the Tesla coil......I think you are on the rightr track

Now someone said it was hard to get a 12V JT to work.
MOST of my JTs are 12V and have been for several years
All you need is a larger resistance on your base resistor and you are good to go.
I do use a heat sink on my JTs........not that I really need to most of the time.
I usually use 2 or 3K ( base resistor ) although 1K would probably work ........but then you probably would really need that heat sink.

I use a TIP2055 for most of my JTs......it is similar to the 2n2055.....but from my experience alot more forgiving

gary

Title: Re: Loosen the Thief
Post by: hidave on November 09, 2010, 02:25:22 AM

Quote from: resonanceman on November 09, 2010, 01:43:34 AM
hidave

I do not think a Tesla coil will get you where you want to go.......and I am not convenced that cotton insulation is required.........although copper coated iron wire does sound interesting.
A Tesla coil as I understand it has to be loosely coupled in order for the secondary to run at high frequency. This loose coupling makes it inefficient
WIth that said....... with the exception of the Tesla coil......I think you are on the rightr track

Now someone said it was hard to get a 12V JT to work.
MOST of my JTs are 12V and have been for several years
All you need is a larger resistance on your base resistor and you are good to go.
I do use a heat sink on my JTs........not that I really need to most of the time.
I usually use 2 or 3K ( base resistor ) although 1K would probably work ........but then you probably would really need that heat sink.

I use a TIP2055 for most of my JTs......it is similar to the 2n2055.....but from my experience alot more forgiving

gary

thanks for the info.

The idea is to construct a system that is very robust, and one that will handle real work load with no maintenance.

I had wounded a crude flat pancake and it's not very exciting, for now at least.

I need to produce currents of high potential, high frequency, and high regularity from 12v battery.
I will have to test the CFL to find the sweet spot for most effeciency.

I am thinking of 1000v @ 20 khz. An oscillator will be best.

For the HV generator, it is necessary to stay away from transistors, resistors etc. They are wasteful and can not withstand the high pressure of the high frequency current. Much like extreme pressure gas, you want to eliminate all governing or restrictive mechanisms. The oscillator does this jobs ultra effeciently.

Cotton dielectric produces desirable phonemomena in lighting. When the electromagnetic conductor and dielectric inductors are polar in function and combined in parallel, upon electrical stimulation there is created an oscillating circuit. The dielectric is the other half of electricity, it is the manifestation of electricity over the surface of the conductor, the skin effect.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 09, 2010, 02:58:08 AM

It sounds a lot like Nathan Stubblefield's research from a long time ago. His earth batteries used cotton insulation on the iron wire.

No one has been able to completely replicate his work to date that I am aware of. (He was a good friend of Tesla's)

Bill

Title: Re: Loosen the Thief
Post by: resonanceman on November 10, 2010, 04:45:55 PM

Quote from: hidave on November 09, 2010, 02:25:22 AM

The idea is to construct a system that is very robust, and one that will handle real work load with no maintenance.
it is necessary to stay away from transistors, resistors etc.

Cotton dielectric produces desirable phonemomena in lighting. When the electromagnetic conductor and dielectric inductors are polar in function and combined in parallel, upon electrical stimulation there is created an oscillating circuit. The dielectric is the other half of electricity, it is the manifestation of electricity over the surface of the conductor, the skin effect.

hidave

I edited your post a little ...I left the parts that I agree with completely.

I have some theorys about a no transistor JT.
At the moment I just have theories.
Once I get a chance to test at least the basic theorys I will post something about it.

One little hint... it will be based on a Perpetual Motion Holder.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on November 10, 2010, 06:37:44 PM

@Resonanceman and Conradelectro:
I feel that most of what you are mentioning is true, BUT- if the Jtc provides no extra energy, and only add loses to a circuit, such as with component heat, dimmer Leds intensity etz. How would you explain the fact that an strong Jtc can light several hundred Leds with 1 volt for as long as it does?
100(s) leds bulbs times 3v, 20 mA=?
More whan one AA 1.5v, 700 mA contains.
Science currently has not provided an adequate explanation (as far as I'm concerned) for the efficiency of the above working device. So, how would you suppose that the example above is possible... and much more, as we are now finding out?
NickZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on November 10, 2010, 09:33:35 PM

Quote from: NickZ on November 10, 2010, 06:37:44 PM
@Resonanceman and Conradelectro:
I feel that most of what you are mentioning is true, BUT- if the Jtc provides no extra energy, and only add loses to a circuit, such as with component heat, dimmer Leds intensity etz. How would you explain the fact that an strong Jtc can light several hundred Leds with 1 volt for as long as it does?
100(s) leds bulbs times 3v, 20 mA=?
More whan one AA 1.5v, 700 mA contains.
Science currently has not provided an adequate explanation (as far as I'm concerned) for the efficiency of the above working device. So, how would you suppose that the example above is possible... and much more, as we are now finding out?
NickZ

NickZ

Anyone with more than half an education knows that OU is impossible .
I guess you could say that I have less than half an education

:)

If you are a good little kid and believe everything you have ever been taught then a JT will never reach overunity.

In my opinion Tesla was one of the all time greatest inventors but few know of most of his inventions.
Tesla was a great inventer but he was very foolish in some ways.
Tesla did not have any idea of how greed dominates the buisness world.
Tesla tried to bring free or almost free energy to the people.........and for his trouble he was blacklisted.
Sense the time of Teslas blacklisting the culture of those trained in energy related fields is one of ridiculing any new ideas..........
As a result we know much less about energy now than Tesla did in his time.

The curriculum of all our schools has been tweaked ..... Some things are ignored.........some are dismissed... for some there are work arounds......like the back EMF pulses from coils.........they teach how to get rid of them.........as far as I know they do not teach how to use these pulses for higher efficiency.
JTs are all about these pulses.
JTs are not conventional technology.

If a JT is ever proven to be over unity it will be by using non traditional technology ......

How a current is induced in a secondary looks to me like one of the areas that is mostly ignored by conventional teaching.
I do not think it will ever be studied well ........at least until OU is proven.
I believe to truly understand how a current is induced in a secondary will show us how to induce a current in MANY secondarys...... AKA overunity .

The OU vultures here can give you a hundred reasons why OU is impossible.
With technology nothing is possible .........until it is possible.
All you need is knowledge .
To say that we know all that there is to know about anything........especially energy is to me the ultimate form of stupidity.
I am going to keep looking into the quirks of electronics ........eventually someone will find something ........and the powers that be will fail to stop the information in time.\
That is when the world wins..... that may be when we start pulling out of this world wide recession

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: The Observer on November 11, 2010, 12:30:20 AM

Just to add to the discussion,

It is fair to say that OU (Over-Unity) does not accurately describe that which we seek here.
Over-Unity really means "Unrecognized Energy Source".

Because only an infinitesimal sliver of time ago man realized that a stick (wood) was a Source of Energy,
and new Energy Sources have been continually discovered since...
it is fair to say that we have only scratched the surface of discovering new Sources of Energy.

As Heisenberg once said, "There is enough energy in a glass of water to boil the all the world's oceans."

Best Regards,
The Observer

P.S. My best idea for "OU" is Resonating Multiple Ignition Coils from a Single Joule Thief.

I believe...
the Phenomenon of Resonance
&
Ferromagnetic's Free Electron Spin
are Unrecognized Sources of Energy.

:o

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on November 11, 2010, 12:56:49 AM

Quote from: The Observer on November 11, 2010, 12:30:20 AM

It is fair to say that OU (Over-Unity) does not accurately describe that which we seek here.
Over-Unity really means "Unrecognized Energy Source".

The Observer

I do not agree.

If I can make a JT based circuit that powers itself and drives a load of some kind.............. it is OU
I do not have to define where the energy comes from in order to make it OU .........

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on November 11, 2010, 01:22:14 AM

Gary:
I don't know about OU. For me it's about experimenting to find the positive efficiency and economy of these circuits.
Its look like these devices work very similar to others that utilize pulse circuits, coils, and capacitors, to reap the radiant spike voltages. But most other pulse circuits devices, have not been shown to work. So this brings the idea that the Jtc can be updraded into more advanced and usefull versions, that Do Work, and that utilize the pulse circuit techology, that make them so economical to use.. almost free, close enough?
But we have not seen it out on the market yet, other than solar garden lights, etz. I think that it will be coming out in many different forms, once further developed.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on November 11, 2010, 02:57:30 AM

Quote from: NickZ on November 10, 2010, 06:37:44 PM
I feel that most of what you are mentioning is true, BUT- if the Jtc provides no extra energy, and only add loses to a circuit, such as with component heat, dimmer Leds intensity etz. How would you explain the fact that an strong Jtc can light several hundred Leds with 1 volt for as long as it does?
100(s) leds bulbs times 3v, 20 mA=?
More whan one AA 1.5v, 700 mA contains.

you didn't post your math for this so it's a little difficult to show you where you error is, but i'm willing to bet you didn't take duty cycle into account when calculating.

Quote from: NickZ on November 10, 2010, 06:37:44 PM
Science currently has not provided an adequate explanation (as far as I'm concerned) for the efficiency of the above working device. So, how would you suppose that the example above is possible... and much more, as we are now finding out?
NickZ

do the math again and take into account the duty cycle. i bet science will then provide you with an adequate explanation. ;)

Quote from: resonanceman on November 11, 2010, 12:56:49 AM
The Observer

I do not agree.

If I can make a JT based circuit that powers itself and drives a load of some kind.............. it is OU
I do not have to define where the energy comes from in order to make it OU .........

gary

i have a circuit that does not plug into the wall, uses no battery, no supercap, no solar cell, that lights an led. does that qualify as OU?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: The Observer on November 11, 2010, 10:41:43 AM

Res,

You don't have to define where the energy is coming from.
Cavemen didn't know where the energy from burning a stick came from.

The Invention Secrecy Act of 1951 states all NOVEL SOURCES of ENERGY are 'illegal' for you and me.

Over-Unity = Novel Source of Energy = Unrecognized Energy Source

My thing is No-One wants to talk about the Unpaired Free Electron Spin present in Ferromagnetics. (cept me)
This produces a FREE MAGNETIC FIELD !
It a can Amplify the Field of a Coil 1,000,000 times without any extra energy put into the coil.

The Ferromagnetic Core is the reason an impressive Joule Thief does what it does !
No Ferro.. no Joule Thief.

My Second thing is Resonance...
X tuning forks ring louder and longer than just one when X>1.
An Acoustic Guitar is 1,000 times louder than an Electric Guitar.

It is clear that when you play with an object's resonant frequency... you tap into some kind of energy.

So Res... How many High Voltage Ignition Coils do you think you could Resonate from a Single Joule Thief?

Best Regards,
The Observer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on November 11, 2010, 11:20:08 AM

Guys:
It may be entirely possible that there can be more juice coming out of a well tuned Jtc than is going into it.
This is an unconventional, unkwown and mostly unused technology that is still in its infancy, that is not worked out yet to its best end results.
There are many guys doing the math right now, and in time the proof will be demonstrated. One way or another. I can't even get my analog volt meter to move on my devices, yet the leds lights are on, and the Jts are charging batteries. I can't prove it though.
Most Jtc are not tuned optimally, to produce more power than they consume, that is the trick, but that does not mean that its not possible. IF a self running Jtc is possible, we will soon find out, and so will all the guys that are working hard at it.
In anycase the idea is to develope what we don't have, and can't buy, yet, -a useful working self running device.
There is no such thing as OverUnity. So, why keep repeating it, since it's a misnomer.
But, if "Tapping into the Source", is all a bunch of BS, then Tesla was all wrong, and we are all way off course. And the world is still flat. No wonder we can't get off of this planet.
NZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on November 11, 2010, 12:08:57 PM

Quote from: The Observer on November 11, 2010, 10:41:43 AM
Res,

You don't have to define where the energy is coming from.
Cavemen didn't know where the energy from burning a stick came from.

The Invention Secrecy Act of 1951 states all NOVEL SOURCES of ENERGY are 'illegal' for you and me.

Over-Unity = Novel Source of Energy = Unrecognized Energy Source

My thing is No-One wants to talk about the Unpaired Free Electron Spin present in Ferromagnetics. (cept me)
This produces a FREE MAGNETIC FIELD !
It a can Amplify the Field of a Coil 1,000,000 times without any extra energy put into the coil.

The Ferromagnetic Core is the reason an impressive Joule Thief does what it does !
No Ferro.. no Joule Thief.

My Second thing is Resonance...
X tuning forks ring louder and longer than just one when X>1.
An Acoustic Guitar is 1,000 times louder than an Electric Guitar.

It is clear that when you play with an object's resonant frequency... you tap into some kind of energy.

So Res... How many High Voltage Ignition Coils do you think you could Resonate from a Single Joule Thief?

Best Regards,
The Observer

The Observer

If the secrecy act you mention does exist it is just anoither layer of protection bought and paid for by the people that control " conventional power.
It is just another sign of how corrupt things have gotten.

About your ferromagnetics

Are you aware that you tend to do is very close to just plain arguing?

If you think ferromagnetics has potential .....start a thread , do some experments .......show some results...........I am betting that then you would have people to talk to about it.

As long as your message is basically "hey stupid you should be studying this not that" ........you arn't going to get alot of response

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: The Observer on November 11, 2010, 01:18:34 PM

Res,

There are 5,135 inventions currently made secret by the Invention Secrecy Act of 1951.
The list of what can be made secret is...of course, secret.
But 1973 list is available.

About the Ferromagnetics.

If one person could say...
"Wow, a piece of Ferrite can AMPLIFY the Magnetic Field of a Coil by 1,000,000 times without using Extra Energy !!"
I would feel like a burden is lifted off my shoulders.

Why people can't see the freely rotating magnetic dipoles powered by free electron spin is beyond me.

All am I doing is pointing at something that I feel is important.
It has nothing to do with a single person being right or wrong..
it is about an AMAZING SCIENTIFIC FACT.

And because an impressive Joule Thief won't work
without a Ferromagnetic Substance (or Resonance)
it is very appropriate to mention here.. in the Joule Thief Thread.

Best Regards,
The Observer

P.S. How many High Voltage Ignition Coils do you think you could Resonate from a Single Joule Thief?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on November 11, 2010, 02:23:20 PM

@The Observer:
I do understand what you're saying.
There are already guys fine tuning their devices by using resonance on high permeability ferrite toroid cores. The idea is not new, but the problem is that we can't even locate and buy the best cores. For example a 3 to 6 inch ferrite toroid core (high-perm), to take the Jt to the next level...
I'm still using the 1/2 to 1 inch chokes cores from Pc power supplies. I see that they are not the highest-perm best core material to use, but they are free. Are they still worth using? Depends.
I may not win a prize using by them, but low voltage Jtc and leds are lighting more and more parts of my house everyday.
NickZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hidave on November 13, 2010, 03:02:59 AM

@resonanceman
I do not like your deletion of my comments, as I had labored with actual experiments testing and pushing the limits of electronic components to really understand their true nature and behaviors.

I suggest that you starting doing the same if you wish to understand what it is that you are continuing to bluff about. After all, your esteemed knowledge is based on pure speculations, the same laws and theories that has abolished any further advancement in the field of electricity.

I enjoy reading the Journal of Science from the past century, it is quite entertaining to see how much those free thinking scientist of yesterday knew, yet you are parroting the same mambo jumbo terms but in a paused time frame.

Your idea of a JT based on a perpetual current holder is an absolute joke, hahaha. Do you even understand magnetism?. Ask yourself why it takes so much iron and pounds of copper r wire to maintain a mere hundredths of an amp current.

JT is not over unity, as over unity is a moronic term concocted by the foolish mainstream scientists to define excess output that defies the Law of energy conversion. JT circuits are mere efficient devises in production of useful P from current.

A true excess output JT requires a totally open circuit, one that is non linear and conforms to the proper geometries and true nature of electricity. With such devise, excessive useful P is produced from each unit of E input, thus resulting in COP=1+

And yes, I am working on it. ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on November 13, 2010, 04:50:08 AM

Hi folks, Yes i also think observer should start a thread to share thoughts about the ferromagnetic and resonance or post here, whatever you think is best observer. It is interesting though, I made a very long core/coil awhile back and the core was regular steel 1/2" dia. probably 2 feet long and one layer 18 gauge wire. What is interesting to note is that it had very little flyback and was a very weak electromagnet. Now if I took the same materials used and changed the geometry, I could get way more flyback and a much stronger electromagnet. So it seems it's not just the fact that ferromagnetic material may give an energy boost, it's also the geometry that makes a big difference. As far as resonance in a coil, we make our pulses so that each pulse does not impede the previous pulse in whatever form that takes. Though I can visualize mechanical things better than how to consistently do this in coils. Like the tuning fork example observer points out and other examples he has pointed out, like an acoustic guitar. So I can clearly see how one can resonate a material object, though a medium is needed to create a resonance as far as i can see. A tuning fork uses its mass and air and same with an acoustic guitar and coils use a magnetic field medium so it seems. So coils would seem to be the best bet for converting a resonance to excess electricity, though one could resonate a speaker cone with another speaker cone I would imagine and possibly convert that to excess electricity, though would the act of harvesting the resonance diminish the resonance. I would love to exchange some practical ideas with anyone here, since coils seem so tricky to get into resonance, why not try something else, like the speaker idea. Forgive the long post, I've been meaning to say a few words about this lately. Take a subwoofer as an example. If a subwoofer is not mounted in an enclosure it has very little output, what about some kind of mulitple speaker enclosure that has 1 or 2 active speakers and a few more that are like what was used in some speakers, not sure if they still use them, called passive radiators. Though we tune the enclosure so that the passive radiators are in some kind of resonance with the active sub transducers and the passive radiators will create the electrical output. Just a few thoughts, let me know what you folks think.
peace love light
Tyson ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: The Observer on November 13, 2010, 12:16:26 PM

Sky W,

Thanks for your input. ;o)

I am going to start a thread in the near future that will deal with the experiment I have been harping about.
That is Resonating Multiple Ignition Coils from a Single Joule Thief.

What I want.. is a few people to get on board with my line of thinking before the experiments begin.
I think you you may be the one of the first.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why do I think I know what I am talking about ?
Because when you know how Something works, it is much easier to use that Something in a useful way.

When I first joined OU, I studied the Sciences of Magnetism and Resonance.
With that knowledge I theorized that RESONATING a TRANSFORMER would produce some interesting results.
After buying an electronics set.. I found out I was right.... Resonating a transformer is interesting !
Thus with a 1.5 V I lit many 3v Leds with an audio transformer by resonating it (LEDs on STEP DOWN side !!!!)
This is not a Joule Thief.. it only works at 1 frequency.

Jeanna and Pirate are both heroic in my eyes,
But when I learned that Jeanna doesn't understand how Ferromagnetics work
and Pirate was sure that Ferrite was NOT Ferromagnetic...
I was in shock.

All I want
is people to know
that a the Magnetic Permeability
of a Ferromagnetic Substance means that is ...
the amount of times it will AMPLIFY the MAGNETIC FIELD of a COIL.

B = (Î¼0 * Î¼r * N * i) / l
Î¼r is the Magnetic Permeability of the material within the solenoid.

This AMPLIFICATION happens by means of previously randomly oriented Magnetic Dipoles
powered the the Infinite Spin of the Unpaired Electrons
lining up with the realativly weak Magnetic Field
of the Coil.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have thought of the speaker idea before as well.
Unfortunately, I realized that a speaker has a LOW Q value meaning it is made to NOT RING by itself.
My understanding is that the more an object will store energy, the more energy can be 'led out'.
A speaker is damped so it can vibrate at the same intensity with many different frequencies.

The box however uses Helmholtz Resonance to achieve amplification from the speaker's sound.
It would be possible to ring the box, which would then move the speaker.
Probably would want to make a special speaker that has a specific Resonant Frequency.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lastly, as politely
as I can... I ask all
posters to use the
return key. 1 long
Run on Paragraph
is hard to read... at
least for me. ;o)~

Best Regards,
The Observer

Title: Re: Jule Thief - flyback in unexpected places
Post by: jeanna on November 13, 2010, 02:49:28 PM

Quote from: NickZ on November 11, 2010, 11:20:08 AM
Guys:
It may be entirely possible that there can be more juice coming out of a well tuned Jtc than is going into it....
... I can't even get my analog volt meter to move on my devices, yet the leds lights are on, and the Jts are charging batteries. I can't prove it though.t.

.......

........ No wonder we can't get off of this planet.
NZ

Hi NickZ,
In your experiments, please be sure to doublecheck your input by using a simple galvanic battery as your source.
In all my attempts to use these, the output has dropped precipitously, when compared with a AA or AAA battery, telling me that much more is going INTO the circuit from a battery than the ampmeter can read.

The timed battery drain experiments I did verify that there is information missing when relying on the ampmeter, also.

IMO, the best direction for using the wasted battery power will be in placing other inductors and capacitors in and around the circuit to capture and re-use what is there, because it is a lot more than it seems.

Of course,
I am still happily using 4 or 5 jtc's for all the light I need in my camper, and the recharge is so easily done, that I think everyone should use this circuit to light their houses, but the drain from the battery is at least twice what any of my meters claim.

=====

I will be making a new video that addresses this in an oblique way and suggests some kind of experimental re-direction.

The 'phyllis plant battery' finally stopped working after 6 months, almost to the day.
The magnesium anode is fine.
The surprise is that the top part of the copper pipe which is NOT in the soil, is completely oxidized... there is a thick green coating.
!

This means to me that the flyback from the positive side of the jtc, has been creating electrolysis and oxidizing the copper.
It may be a place where more power can be captured, and an important place to begin working.
Kooler has been doing something like this, and maybe chiliqueen, too.

I hope to have some movie making time next week. ;) so I can show you all what happened, but for now, this is all I have time to say.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief - resonance
Post by: jeanna on November 13, 2010, 03:01:30 PM

@Tyson and Observer,

Hi,

Please remember that I found that a conical/wound secondary seemed to self tune.

These are sort of directions to what I did:

I made the cone on a piece of cardboard, and wound it bifilar-pancake style (but not flat).
I wound some turns around the toroid as a secondary of a jtc, and connected the 2 ends of this secondary to the conical part.

The voltage difference between these wires was not very high but it was always a ring shape as seen on the scope. (No matter what the frequency was in the basic jtc.
It seemed to work best when the toroid of the jtc, was set over the point of the coil making it look like a mini wardencliff coil.

Even though the coil is covered in tape and really hard to see, I made a couple of videos in my excitement and they are on my YT channel called jeannacav.

I hope you try this.

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on November 13, 2010, 08:24:13 PM

@ Jeanna and All:
Thanks for your reply. I'm starting to feel like Lidmotor, having all these little Jt friends around, each with their own name, and a different led light on them so they won't get confused.
I'm trying to get a Jt connected to an 120v AC 50 led Christmas Lights set, now (made in China). Hopefully I can get it to light up before Christmas comes. I've separated the led light's lines, and connected them direct to the Jt's transistor C and E rail, but, it won't light, yet. I'll get it.
I also bought some Emergency Back-up Led lights, with 16 leds in them. I'll be adding a Jtc to each one, to see how long they will last, running off of the capacitors that come inside the light bulbs. I've already been using them at night as they come, but they only last for 2 or 3 hours. Hopefully they'll last all night with a Jtc running off of the same run capacitor. The caps inside the bulbs can charge during the day off the grid, or from a solar panel.
Jeanna- I've got a 6 foot pyramid (1/2 inch copper tube frame), and some joule thiefs. Do you think there is a way to connect them together?
Nick

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jeanna on November 15, 2010, 04:47:40 PM

Quote from: NickZ on November 13, 2010, 08:24:13 PM
@ Jeanna and All:
Thanks for your reply. I'm starting to feel like Lidmotor, having all these little Jt friends around, each with their own name, and a different led light on them so they won't get confused.

QuoteI'm trying to get a Jt connected to an 120v AC 50 led Christmas Lights set, now (made in China). Hopefully I can get it to light up before Christmas comes. I've separated the led light's lines, and connected them direct to the Jt's transistor C and E rail, but, it won't light, yet. I'll get it.

There are probably 4 big resistors in the strings, meaning 2 on each piece you cut off, and one at each end.
In mine there is a 3rd wire to the ones with the resistor and 2 wires to the part of the string without any resistor.
If you figure that you need about 7 spiky volts per led in series, you might see why you are getting no lights.
Try cutting one string into sections like 10 leds, and try connecting both ways.
If that is still not lighting cut it into 7 and 3. Then something should light up and you can go from there.

QuoteI also bought some Emergency Back-up Led lights, with 16 leds in them. I'll be adding a Jtc to each one, to see how long they will last, running off of the capacitors that come inside the light bulbs. I've already been using them at night as they come, but they only last for 2 or 3 hours. Hopefully they'll last all night with a Jtc running off of the same run capacitor. The caps inside the bulbs can charge during the day off the grid, or from a solar panel.

I don't know what these are.
running on a cap for 2 or 3 hours? That sounds pretty great to me!
Probably, I don't understand.

QuoteJeanna- I've got a 6 foot pyramid (1/2 inch copper tube frame), and some joule thiefs. Do you think there is a way to connect them together?

I don't know.
I was thinking along this kind of lines when I made my conical bifilar secondary, but I only got that to work when it was connected to the secondary already wrapped around the toroid.

Try a few hundred things... eh?
... and tell us, of course. ;)

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on November 16, 2010, 10:32:08 AM

@Jeanna:
You were right about the Christmas lights. I had to cut off every led in the line and attach them in parallel. In series they would not even light two bulbs together, even without their resistor. I don't know why still. In anycase, I soldered the individule bulbs in parallel. and they work fine that way. Quite a bit of work though, so I don't recommend it to anyone. Unless you're bored, like me.
You can make the light spread from the group of leds in a set much more even (viewing angle), and therefore more useable. And some red and blue led bulbs can also be added to the group, to make your own color spectrum. You can definately warm up the cold feeling of normal white led lights, by adding red and blue bulbs to the set. Very important point for me. As now I can now see that it's possible to have the right led color gradient or spectrum , even if you have to make it yourself.
I can't wait to try the ultraviolet led bulbs. Have you seen the Led grow lamps, they are a sort of violet color?
Anyways, back to the kitchen table for me, I lease it from my wife, at times.
PS. I feel for the Chinese guys or girls that have to solder all those thousands of led bulbs, resistors, and connections onto the Christmas lights strings, and put it all together with an 8 mode Ac timing control. Then sell it for 5 or 10 bucks. 'Cuz it might be me tommorow...
NZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Poit on November 16, 2010, 05:14:52 PM

Hey guys,

Ive been thinking lately, if a JT is good at using up all the energy in a battery for say, a LED torch. Can a JT be used in a device that uses a lot more power, say, a electric scooter? like this one http://www.bestscooterbuys.com/evo800.html (I own two of these!! :D great fun!!)

It is a 36 volt system (3x 12v 12amp sla batteries) @ 800watts.... currently the scooter will go at full speed (35km/h) for about an hour before the battery is "flat".... but if a JT was built, like... a BIG JT was built... couldn't I in theory get a lot more use out of the scooter????

I would really love some input here, because I don't know a hell of a lot about electronics, its a hobby that I never really got all that good at :P

Would it be as simple as getting a very large transistor, very large toroid, and a very large resistor? or is there a better way?

Thanks for your time in reading this... look forward to peoples responses.

Pete

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 16, 2010, 07:45:11 PM

Poit:

Interesting idea but I am not sure if it will work or not. You are dealing with a good sized DC motor in that scooter. If it would work, I believe you are correct about scaling up the JT, big time.

One way to possibly test your idea might be to get a similar, very small DC motor that will run on like 2 volts or so, and first run it straight from a battery of known charge, time how long it runs. Then, run the same motor from the same sized charged battery using a JT circuit and see if it runs longer.

That is all I can think of to try. The pulses in the JT fool our eyes making us think the light is on all the time when in fact it can actually be off as much, if not more, than on depending upon the duty cycle. I am just not sure how the electric motor would react to these pulses...in fact, sending it AC or pulsed DC it may not run at all.

It would be a good experiment to try then we would know.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Poit on November 16, 2010, 07:57:47 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on November 16, 2010, 07:45:11 PM
Poit:

Interesting idea but I am not sure if it will work or not. You are dealing with a good sized DC motor in that scooter. If it would work, I believe you are correct about scaling up the JT, big time.

One way to possibly test your idea might be to get a similar, very small DC motor that will run on like 2 volts or so, and first run it straight from a battery of known charge, time how long it runs. Then, run the same motor from the same sized charged battery using a JT circuit and see if it runs longer.

That is all I can think of to try. The pulses in the JT fool our eyes making us think the light is on all the time when in fact it can actually be off as much, if not more, than on depending upon the duty cycle. I am just not sure how the electric motor would react to these pulses...in fact, sending it AC or pulsed DC it may not run at all.

It would be a good experiment to try then we would know.

Bill

awesome idea.. ill do that now :) (the test that is)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on November 16, 2010, 09:21:55 PM

Quote from: Poit on November 16, 2010, 05:14:52 PM
Hey guys,

Ive been thinking lately, if a JT is good at using up all the energy in a battery for say, a LED torch. Can a JT be used in a device that uses a lot more power, say, a electric scooter? like this one http://www.bestscooterbuys.com/evo800.html (I own two of these!! :D great fun!!)

It is a 36 volt system (3x 12v 12amp sla batteries) @ 800watts.... currently the scooter will go at full speed (35km/h) for about an hour before the battery is "flat".... but if a JT was built, like... a BIG JT was built... couldn't I in theory get a lot more use out of the scooter????

I would really love some input here, because I don't know a hell of a lot about electronics, its a hobby that I never really got all that good at :P

Would it be as simple as getting a very large transistor, very large toroid, and a very large resistor? or is there a better way?

Thanks for your time in reading this... look forward to peoples responses.

Pete

Poit

I am pretty sure it will be a while before anyone makes a JT big enough to directly power a scooter.
However.........a normal JT might be a good thing for a scooter anyway.
A JT can be used to charge a battery ... charging a battery with a JT conditions the battery kind of like a bedin motor will condition a battery. Once conditioned the battery may hold a few % more power....... and it will recharge faster .
Now if you wanted to add some solar cells to your scooter.......you could use the JT to trickle charge the battery even while you are riding it........and if you park it in the sun it will charge a little ......and I mean a little.... I charge a 14 AH SLA battery with a JT ......if I discharge the battery alot it takes days to recharge.

gary

Edit

I have been working on making a much stronger JT without using a hard to obtain toroid . Once I come up with a good design maybe some more options for your scooter will be available.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on November 16, 2010, 10:18:06 PM

i made me a jt train one jt run a jt running a jt..
i know you guys done this before.. but i wanted to try it..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HN3F_nQCBRE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HN3F_nQCBRE)

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on November 17, 2010, 12:52:50 AM

Quote from: kooler on November 16, 2010, 10:18:06 PM
i made me a jt train one jt run a jt running a jt..
i know you guys done this before.. but i wanted to try it..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HN3F_nQCBRE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HN3F_nQCBRE)

robbie

Robbie

Great work
:)

I might have missed something but I do not remember anyone doing more than 2 JTs in a row.

I am courious about if this could tie in with what I am playing with at the momright ent.
Single wire connections.

Right now I have a JT with each leg of the secondary connected to a good sized bedini type bifilar coil. ( 2 bedini type coils )
I connected the ends of one of the windings together and connected one leg of the JT secondary to each of these .
The idea is to make one winding of the bifilar coil act like a capacitor.
The theory is that a capacitors charge " shakes " the area surounding the cap but this shaking is not part of " normal " teachings.
I am harvesting this vibration .......
I think.
OK .........getting back to the circuit.........each wire of the 2 bedini coil secondarys are connected to diode bridges..........4 ends so 2 bridges.
The output of both bridges is connected to a couple of supercaps in series........ 1 LED is connected across the supercaps........ the circuit is running holding a steady 2.73V

I hope I have explained this clear enough.......
I was wondering if your JT string could be set up with one wire between them ..........I am guessing it would take bigger coils.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on November 17, 2010, 01:49:51 AM

Here is a quick drawing of my circuit.
sense each of the wires of the extra coils secondaries are connected to the bridges it looks like circuit is pretty normal........but each of the wires can be used alone. .....each additional wire connected to the bridges adds to the power.

The schematic shows one leg of each coil going to each bridge.........connecting both legs of one coil to one bridge lowers the voltage slightly....... .02V

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on November 17, 2010, 04:16:08 AM

Quote from: resonanceman on November 17, 2010, 01:49:51 AM
Here is a quick drawing of my circuit.
sense each of the wires of the extra coils secondaries are connected to the bridges it looks like circuit is pretty normal........but each of the wires can be used alone. .....each additional wire connected to the bridges adds to the power.

The schematic shows one leg of each coil going to each bridge.........connecting both legs of one coil to one bridge lowers the voltage slightly....... .02V

gary

Hi Gary, why are the two primary windings of each output coils shorted out!! I think you need to amend your drawing. Ive also notice your LED is wrongly shown... the anode connect to the +ve point, not the cathode!! The last point depending on how much voltage and current is available you could well damaged your LED without a series resistor to limit the current... remember you no longer have spikes, just smooth DC voltage!! Kind Regards. Merv

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on November 17, 2010, 09:56:11 AM

Quote from: crowclaw on November 17, 2010, 04:16:08 AM
Hi Gary, why are the two primary windings of each output coils shorted out!! I think you need to amend your drawing. Ive also notice your LED is wrongly shown... the anode connect to the +ve point, not the cathode!! The last point depending on how much voltage and current is available you could well damaged your LED without a series resistor to limit the current... remember you no longer have spikes, just smooth DC voltage!! Kind Regards. Merv

Crowclaw

Thanks for pointing out I had the diode backwards.
As for what you call the shorted windings........that was the point of the whole drawing.

I tried to explain what I was doing on reply #14258
I did the schematic just to make sure that things were clear.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on November 22, 2010, 12:47:07 AM

Vaporizer
Here is the schematic of the circuit you were interested in as close as I can remember.

I do not remember exactly how many of the coils went to each light........so I drew it with just one light.

The flyback and feedback still apply
All the flyback is connected in series with the load.
3 of the secondarys are connected for feedback.......one for flyback.
All feedback is connected in parallel with the Jesus charger...... I am not sure that the cap across the bridge in the Jesus charger is required ........but it is what I used at the time.

A high impedance load is required for this circuit to work properly.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on November 23, 2010, 02:51:37 PM

Quote from: Poit on November 16, 2010, 05:14:52 PM
Hey guys,

Ive been thinking lately, if a JT is good at using up all the energy in a battery for say, a LED torch. Can a JT be used in a device that uses a lot more power, say, a electric scooter? like this one http://www.bestscooterbuys.com/evo800.html (I own two of these!! :D great fun!!)

a joule theif could be used for that application but the joule is a blocking oscilator so you would need a diode blocking the path through the motor and that diode would need to "switch on" at the appropriate voltage you want the motor to run at so since you have a 36v power supply im guessing it runs on 36v but you would want to use a volt meter and be sure. as far as needing to scale up you could still run this from a 1v power supply but it would draw more MA than the leds. you just need the proper resistors and transistors for the given voltage and amps or "wattage" your using. also the magnetic torroid would not need to be very big, it only needs to be big enough to avoid saturation. i could not tell you how to calculate the saturation that may require experimentation but i would imagine these gold mines everyone orders are probobly big enough.

there is only so much gains that can come from this system however. if you have noticed in this forum there is a "max voltage" these units can accomplish. the only way to raise the voltage after a sertain point is to increase amp draw. that max voltage comes from the magnetism itself. see magnetism is wattage based (volt x amp) and it can only be streatched so far before you reach the limit of a given wattage. since motors are magnetism driven you are going to lose torque as you lose magnetism. the motor may not be making effecient use of this magnetism or the power to create it and so this circuit may help give it a more effecient drive as people have employed pulse width modulation for motor speed controls for some time now to make them more efficient. however if the motor doesnt have the magnetism it needs when it needs it then again you will lose torque or horse power.

you should try it, could be very fun and a good learning experience. just use a cheep motor for testing :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on November 23, 2010, 11:29:15 PM

heres a follow up to my last jt train..
i forgot to show the filter caps and how it works

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7ALFBFonns (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7ALFBFonns)

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: osiris on November 29, 2010, 04:13:50 PM

hello all

i was thinking of building something agin...

i saw the bcaps were on for a christmas discount so i bought some ...

;D
peace lartz pics oo so soon
osiris
for the reunion a song ...
WHOA IS ME http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71S9ou2gcqE
ps 10kw unit ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on November 30, 2010, 11:34:37 PM

Quote from: osiris on November 29, 2010, 04:13:50 PM
hello all

i was thinking of building something agin...

i saw the bcaps were on for a christmas discount so i bought some ...

;D
peace lartz pics oo so soon
osiris
for the reunion a song ...
WHOA IS ME http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71S9ou2gcqE
ps 10kw unit ;)

hmmmm..
do we know you from a different username ??
weird..

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on December 01, 2010, 03:55:46 AM

Quote from: kooler on November 30, 2010, 11:34:37 PM
hmmmm..
do we know you from a different username ??
weird..

robbie

I think so too robbie...very familiar, Hmmmmm.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on December 01, 2010, 09:11:03 AM

@Osiris:
You are building a 10 kw device?
Any info and pictures?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: osiris on December 01, 2010, 09:13:24 AM

you all should know me

but i have finally scalled it up
as well i got me some big bad boy batteries .. 2vdc 1000ah i have 14
right out the nuke plant

my 10 kw unit has 50 caps in it it requires 52 boost caps 3000e
it is designed to handle 12v-15 v 900amp constant

its the 808 G6

get your W core WOUND!

osiris

yes i will have pictures videos and all required infos.. just repairing from the last crash
i also forgot to mention i now have access to a hand heild portable rf spectrum anyilizer
wave teck
8) hummm it also data logs to a comp ... its a 15 000 $ tool as well i have a trained rf tech schooled by the best in north america ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 01, 2010, 12:39:33 PM

@ist

Hi William , better play nice this time ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: osiris on December 01, 2010, 03:46:14 PM

i have been quite busy ..

here is a slice of the ring

it mesures almost 4' across

some batteries i own ....

last pic the W core

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 04, 2010, 11:24:53 AM

HI Bill and the Energy gang . I really miss the days when i had the Energy to make Energy ;) It's been a While and things are kinda bad for me but i wanted to drop a line and say thank you for the time you spent with me on here. I simply don't have the strength to fight with people anymore that refuse to see what we had here . Most of my friends here have made Free energy . Others can call it what they want because they simply cant measure it with conventional instruments no matter how hard they try . Its matter being converted to something other that it was that i see as free energy . Its almost CHRISTmas and i have to put the tree up for (A) my daughter . I ran across the Fugi and all the lights stored away and i just had find the time to tell you I miss you and a some others here . You know who you are . You guys and Gals have a Great Christmas and a Great life . Keep on Going because you have all you need . We may never get off the Grid in our life time but our kids might ! . Peace and Goodwill .

Gadget :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tysb3 on December 04, 2010, 11:48:33 AM

hi, gadgetmall
you need to read it!!! VITAMIN B17:
http://www.cancertutor.com/Cancer/Laetrile.html
http://www.vitaminb17.org/is_cancer_merely_a_vitamin_deficiency.htm

KEEP ON GOING

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: osiris on December 04, 2010, 12:52:31 PM

GADGET!

it is nice to see you
hope you make your way .. if there is anything i can help you with i will

as you all know my work leads to EL ie HEALING .. :)

perhaps ill clue you in ... if we have growen ...

regards wish your little one well for me

osiris

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 04, 2010, 02:05:02 PM

Hi @gadgetmall!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 05, 2010, 02:41:33 PM

Gadget:

Great to hear from you man! I agree totally with what you have said. We might not have changed the world here but, I do believe we may have helped. I have many of those devices that I use every day...even made one for my Mom so she could tell if her door was locked or not. Can't buy one of those that will run 24/7 for well over a month on a "dead" AA bat. in the stores anywhere.

I hope you get to the point where you can join us once again. Thank you for all of your efforts and contributions to this topic. Bless you and your daughter for a Merry Christmas this year.

Take care buddy,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on December 05, 2010, 03:00:09 PM

@gadgetmall
Hi gadget, I don't know you personally but have followed you through your work within this forum notably the Jule Thief. You have shown commitment, dedication and without doubt a positive attitude which clearly shines through in your projects. You have made many friends here, and I will not be the first to emphasise the importance for you to remain positive.Try and focus on any alternative therapies, medications, and electronic devices which may help you. Explore the work of_ Dr. Hilda Clark, Riffe, Lee Crock and many others. Remember, those close at hand are ready to offer their help and assistance in any way needed. I wish you and your Family a Happy Xmas ...God Bless you Regards Merv

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 05, 2010, 06:19:47 PM

Quote from: osiris on December 04, 2010, 12:52:31 PM
GADGET!

it is nice to see you
hope you make your way .. if there is anything i can help you with i will

as you all know my work leads to EL ie HEALING .. :)

perhaps ill clue you in ... if we have growen ...

regards wish your little one well for me

osiris

You could start by an apology ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on December 05, 2010, 11:35:24 PM

all

i bought me some fugi cameras the other day to mod while i wait on my other stuff to get here and it was wasted money..
both cameras have the same layout but will not light the cfl's.. so i will be tearing them down to fix the transformers..
i was giving you guys a heads up if anyone buys them..
so try to find the old ones that have the neon bulbs in them.. the new ones have a small red led..
i draw the schematic of the first half of the new fugi camera circuit if anyone wants it..
hope it helps

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: synchro1 on December 06, 2010, 12:27:32 AM

Try this Kodak Funsaver mod. Real simple and works like a charm. Just hook the light in where he has his capacitor. 1.5 d.c. volts in. 450 a.c volts out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XXfEoDIF0Q&feature=related

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: FatBird on December 06, 2010, 02:15:22 PM

Thank you for sharing that video.

Yeah, that is a slick way to get 450V.

.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Artic_Knight on December 06, 2010, 03:17:43 PM

has anyone been looking at resonance? i saw a pic of light and its resonance or half lifes. ill break it down.

if you broadcast a 3hz wave you get a half strenght wave at 6hz and a quarter strenght wave at 9 the life diminishes by half of the previous as the frequency doubles.

i compared these waves, the way the peak power over laps you would not want to set a reciever coil to the transmit frequency as that frequency will actually be hindered by its own transmission! and i know were not dealing with radio transmissions on this forum but i believe the same principle my apply to the joule thief although i havent had a osciliscope to test.

what it seems needs to be done then is a tank circuit set up on the joule thief to resonate at this higher 3rd wave the 9hz then the peaks of the 6 and 3 will better overlap in a way to have less cancelation.

of course the transmit wave carries the bulk of the power and thats why we still recieve some of the radio transmission but just think the second wave plus 3rd wave equals 75% and its frequencies are in just such a way that majority of their power acts against the primary wave!

on the other hand longitudinal waves dont suffer this and travel faster with +90% power transferred. i wonder if theres a way to use a solid state longitudinal wave? back to google!

just wanted to share. if someone finds it interesting and wants to discuss yell at me :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on December 07, 2010, 02:01:54 AM

Quote from: Artic_Knight on December 06, 2010, 03:17:43 PM
has anyone been looking at resonance? i saw a pic of light and its resonance or half lifes. ill break it down.

if you broadcast a 3hz wave you get a half strenght wave at 6hz and a quarter strenght wave at 9 the life diminishes by half of the previous as the frequency doubles.

i compared these waves, the way the peak power over laps you would not want to set a reciever coil to the transmit frequency as that frequency will actually be hindered by its own transmission! and i know were not dealing with radio transmissions on this forum but i believe the same principle my apply to the joule thief although i havent had a osciliscope to test.

what it seems needs to be done then is a tank circuit set up on the joule thief to resonate at this higher 3rd wave the 9hz then the peaks of the 6 and 3 will better overlap in a way to have less cancelation.

of course the transmit wave carries the bulk of the power and thats why we still recieve some of the radio transmission but just think the second wave plus 3rd wave equals 75% and its frequencies are in just such a way that majority of their power acts against the primary wave!

on the other hand longitudinal waves dont suffer this and travel faster with +90% power transferred. i wonder if theres a way to use a solid state longitudinal wave? back to google!

just wanted to share. if someone finds it interesting and wants to discuss yell at me :)

Artic Knight

I think the problems with JTs and resonance is that JTs don't hold a stable frequency......so it is almost impossible to keep the circuit in resonance.........

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: The Observer on December 07, 2010, 02:19:56 AM

Artic,

You can light a CFL with an average 1.5V Joule Thief by using output to resonate an ignition coil.
I believe this is one of the next steps in the Evolution of the Joule Thief (Resonating High Voltage Transformers).

I highly recommend this video... Kudos Morper44 !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zacait0vgCM

If you want a low & steady input voltage...
it would be possible to use a wall transformer/voltage divider to achieve a stable frequency.

Best Regards,
The Observer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on December 08, 2010, 11:31:36 AM

Hi,

I am new here. May i know how to build a joule thief with an input of 0.8V and 0.1mA ? I mean how many turn i need to put on toroid? Any tutorial or step by step instruction for me. I really noob in electronic stuff

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: synchro1 on December 08, 2010, 03:52:29 PM

Here's a link to my youtube video showing the Kodak Funsaver light:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFwh4nZNHXA

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 08, 2010, 09:35:30 PM

Here is My Fugi Mods in Pdf form . They would not fit here so here is the link . I Modified all three Fugi Versions including the aaa with the led but i couldn't find the pdf i made for them . If i find it you may have it . Merry Christmas Gang .
http://rapidshare.com/files/435791071/GADGETMALLFUGMODPLANS.pdf

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on December 08, 2010, 10:31:25 PM

gadget
thanks for the detailed instructions..
wish you were still here working with us.. or (playing)
cause it is getting slow around here.. i think people are just bored with it all..
but thank you for the pdf ..
best wishes for you and your little girl..
merry christmas

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on December 09, 2010, 03:13:21 AM

Quote from: kb24 on December 08, 2010, 11:31:36 AM
Hi,

I am new here. May i know how to build a joule thief with an input of 0.8V and 0.1mA ? I mean how many turn i need to put on toroid? Any tutorial or step by step instruction for me. I really noob in electronic stuff

KB

The JT is a very simple circuit ........but it is not the kind of thing that has a set of magic numbers that always work.
How many windings you need will depend on your other parts.......especially the toroid.

JT 101 is a thread that has quite a few of the basics for making JTs
I suggest reading it first
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8341.0

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: knabe on December 09, 2010, 07:06:45 AM

Hi everyone here!

Did read all this thread, did some stuff, got some results. I am practical, so i have a very practical question. Did anyone made light from 1.2V, that you can recommend for reading? Not "i can recognise letters", not "you can read by it", but one you can give to your kid for everyday reading. Jeanna and Lasersaber made quite bright light, but from 2 batteries, not one. Maybe i miss something, but i do not remember a good and stable light. Can anyone show me way to go for it? How to get maximum lumens from 1.2V.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 09, 2010, 07:36:22 AM

Over the Coarse of several years in this thread we have lit over 500 White leds and 110 volt Cfls and blew up just as many . Yes its a lot of reading for sure but the first 300 pages are the heart of it all .As far as i know this thread Deals With JUST 1.2 volts lighting many leds,florecent, etc . . I personally from Knowledge that i learned here light our Christmas tree up with a rechargeable 1.2 volt AA battery for Christmas Holidays . it uses the above Disposable Camera Circuit which is a Jule Thief . We have replicated as many members have Done the same and more with Toroids and wire and a transistor . Just Ask Jeanna and Bill and Electricme and jesus and mark and kooler . Kooler makes BIG ENERGY from that ole aa battery :) Have Fun and If i find the energy i'll contribute a bit more . There are 1000's of ways to do it and they are all here in these pages . Yes knabe i think you missed something :) Best go with Gary's suggestion in julethief 101 . goodness it would take me 8 months to read this thread and download all the Schematics members have gave here . Happy Experimenting !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on December 09, 2010, 03:33:51 PM

Quote from: knabe on December 09, 2010, 07:06:45 AM
Hi everyone here!

Did read all this thread, did some stuff, got some results. I am practical, so i have a very practical question. Did anyone made light from 1.2V, that you can recommend for reading? Not "i can recognise letters", not "you can read by it", but one you can give to your kid for everyday reading. Jeanna and Lasersaber made quite bright light, but from 2 batteries, not one. Maybe i miss something, but i do not remember a good and stable light. Can anyone show me way to go for it? How to get maximum lumens from 1.2V.

knabe

If I remember right the original Jeanna light worked pretty well with just one battery, but she went with 2 to make it brighter and last longer.

I think the brightest and smallest unit to light a CFL with only one AA battery is Gadgetmalls fuji mod. He posted a link with detailed directions for making it a few posts back.

I have to ask a few questions about why you wnt what you want.
Why only one battery?
Why specifically a CFL? If you want a good reading light LEDs are much easier to power with a JT.

Quote

one you can give to your kid for everyday reading.

From this I got a feeling that you are looking for a special gift for a child.
Although a CFL lit by one battery is impressive .... it is not a good gift for a child in my opinion.
CFLs are fragile and they all have a little mercury in them
I would not intentionally allow a child to play with ANY CFL because of the mercury.

An older child that understands how a CFL works will be impressed by a battery powered unit.......a smaller child would be impressed more by the amount of light it makes........ you can get lots more light for the power with LEDs

If you are planning on giving a JT powered light to a child for reading......I would suggest that you do a few experiments .......then put together a kit with parts for making some JTs then throw in a few that you have already made.
When the gift is opened you will have to demonstrate what the JTs do.......and explain that you will help the child learn how to make other JTs with the parts.
The part about helping the child learn how to make their own JTs is an important part of the gift.......but it turns out that part of the gift is as much for you as for the child.
You can't spend to much time with a young child.......once they reach the teens and start living their own life the time you can actually spend with them drops off dramatically .
Once it is gone....... you can't get it back.

If you decide to go ahead and make a Jeanna light that may be used by a child.........please find a clear bottle or something that can be placed over the CFL tube to make it tough enough to have at least a chance of surviving being dropped once or twice.......The bottle would also contain the glass fragments and would allow the mercury vapor to dissipate slowly

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 09, 2010, 05:33:34 PM

@ gadgetmall,

:) I am no longer following this thread, but I happened to notice your post and was surprised. I am glade to see you are still posting. To those who do not know, Gadgetmall did a lot of work finding ways to lower the power consumption of Joule thief circuit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: shylo on December 09, 2010, 08:33:26 PM

To Artic Knight,...I would like to hear a little more about how frequency affects other frequencies,..........I've done lots of reading but have a hard time wrapping my mind around it,......but believe its' very significant,...Tesla seemed quite interested in it...........shylo

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 09, 2010, 09:29:42 PM

xee2 glad to see you brother . I got that feeling to touch base before the .. well . u know . For the new guys at the tail end this is an unfinished project i was doing . its basically a big ring some wire a transistor pulled from a broken PC powersupply along with the adjustable pot . this was based on Jeannas Light and she has Done most of the hard research and documented the numbers here mainly .. As you see its got a 110 plug on it and runs from a C cell for about three weeks solid . This one is turned down all the way cause i remember blowing out some strings of white leds with it . My brother says it makes him sick and it hurts his head from it being so loud . I cannot hear it and i am sick already soo..Now is a good time to stock up on warm white leds . as you see the 20 at the end are extremely bright white just like the filament bulbs . these are amazing power savers light source with plenty of lumen s

Ps. Bill please forgive me i forgot how to resize the pics . i reduced them from 8 meg each but the size is too big . Feel free to fit them . i just cant remember how .

Happily edited by Moderator.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: XS-NRG on December 10, 2010, 12:08:56 AM

OMG somebody call Lawrence

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: knabe on December 10, 2010, 01:26:56 AM

@ Gadgetmall:

Nice looking bulbs! Are they LED? Do You or anyone else have any idea, how to get them? Who ships them wordwide?

@ Gary:

I do not want CFL. I prefer warm white LEDs. As far i am experimenting, i did not get enough light for reading. I have put some Seebeck modules to my woodstove and charge a 1.2V rechargeable. Its a nice way to get your own electricity :) The next step - make enough light to read, do more experiments etc.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on December 10, 2010, 03:04:00 AM

Quote from: knabe on December 10, 2010, 01:26:56 AM
@ Gadgetmall:

Nice looking bulbs! Are they LED? Do You or anyone else have any idea, how to get them? Who ships them wordwide?

@ Gary:

I do not want CFL. I prefer warm white LEDs. As far i am experimenting, i did not get enough light for reading. I have put some Seebeck modules to my woodstove and charge a 1.2V rechargeable. Its a nice way to get your own electricity :) The next step - make enough light to read, do more experiments etc.

Knabe

It looks to me like Gadgitmall has one set of standard bulbs and 2 sets of LED bulbs in the picture.

Can you purchase things on Ebay?
here is a link to the warm white version of the kind of LED I like right now.
1 watt each
10 MM so they dissipate heat pretty well.

I like the plain white........they are a little cheaper.
I have 4 of them soldered together......they would make a very nice reading light ........ you probably won't have to use them at full power to read.

http://cgi.ebay.com/5-PCS-10mm-40-1W-Warm-White-LED-300mA-350-000mcd-NEW-/390226505227?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5adb4fee0b#shId

I believe that most of the LED christmas tree lights are around 3.5 W
These would be 5W total........for probably less than you will pay for christmas tree lights.........AND they are so much easier to work with.

Now........ you have made some JTs that are not quite up to power.......can you describe the better ones.......what kind of toroid ..... how many primary wraps ..... how many secondary wraps.

Do you know how to tune the primary ?

Do you use a capacitor across the base resistor?

Do you use a fixed resistor or potentiometer for your base resistor?

Gadgetmall

It is good to see you here again......

I have been trying to make a coil like that off and on for quite a while.
Do you mind telling me what kind of wire you used and how long for primary and secondary?

The plug on the end is a great idea

:)

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 10, 2010, 07:15:22 AM

Quote from: XS-NRG on December 10, 2010, 12:08:56 AM
OMG somebody call Lawrence

i Almost cracked a smile . OMG i almost forgot him and now...

Unfortunately to avoid controversy the secret will be buried with me but it's not ou its conversion of energy from one kind to the other ;D. And also all the info is in this thread to build one .there are no hidden parts and was wound to meet the resonance of the transistor with the Torroid which is high perm .There are no caps but there is two components that are simple . I as others found that Current in is decreased as the draw from secondaries increases so i have one winding that is dead shorted , Its a secondary that is a coil of wire connected together and the other component is a tiny magnet on the opposite side of the toroid and transistor .Magnets act funny on a torroid i found and they actually detune a circuit from resonance so my thinking was detune it with the magnet and retune it with the wire length not using any tank circuit but the wire it self . The whole thing was then dunked in Rubber latex . The black tape holds the fragile secondary wires to my female plug to keep them from breaking . The Components are outside for access . I built this maybe 15 months ago ? You all keep on building them bigger and better and have a MERRY Happy Christmas .

Albert D.

aka Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: knabe on December 10, 2010, 07:45:52 AM

Gary, maybe You are right, 40 degree angle is better for reading than wide angle. I already have 8mm wide angle leds from the same seller.

My best light source so far is solar garden light plate with one 8mm 1w led. Good, but not enough...

My own jts are worse. I used transformers from PC and long and narrow toroids, like these on PC monitor cables with about 10 bf turns. Wire is from cat5 cable.

I am waiting for osciloscope and C and L meter. So far i have best results from only basic jt without secondary. Maybe with osciloscope i will see better, what does caps and tuning. With no tools you are without eyes...

Yes, and singing is not for me. So i will use only plastic covered wires. Transformers sing too, so i must make my own toroids. If i need a big toroid for light, i dont know where to get this. Goldmine does not send to my country.

To summarize - what is the best toroid or what is the best jt for light in my case? Does anyone already built it? I am asking for easy way, i know :) Anyway i will go for light.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on December 10, 2010, 09:30:17 AM

Quote from: resonanceman on December 09, 2010, 03:13:21 AM
KB

The JT is a very simple circuit ........but it is not the kind of thing that has a set of magic numbers that always work.
How many windings you need will depend on your other parts.......especially the toroid.

JT 101 is a thread that has quite a few of the basics for making JTs
I suggest reading it first
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8341.0

gary

The problem that i was facing is that i thought my JT is not working but actually it does work. It work with 1.5V battery but when i connect JT with my earth battery, it cant work.

The situation is like this:
1.5V battery with JT can light up 5led <-- this is to proved my JT worked

My earth battery(around 12V, 0.3mA) without JT can light up 5led(low intenstiy)

when i connect my Earth battery with JT can only light up 1LED(damn low intensity). When i try with 5LED, nothin happen.

May i know why?? It seem like when i connect earth battery to JT, the voltage drop. But it still work on normal battery.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: The Observer on December 10, 2010, 10:25:52 AM

Gadget,

Nice to you see you.
You don't know me, but suffice it to say that I am a fan.

You said,

Quotethere are no hidden parts and was wound to meet the resonance of the transistor with the Toroid which is high perm

Basically, I would like to know your opinion.
How important are these two phenomena to you circuit designs?

1. Resonance.

2. High Ferromagnetic Permeability. (a high concentration of rotatable magnetic dipoles in the core)

I have deduced that these are vitally important to making an Impressive Joule Thief.
Do you agree ?

Best Regards,
The Observer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 10, 2010, 10:28:08 AM

I have a suggestion for your earth battery to run the jt . Try different electrolytic capacitor values across your EB wires . Seems 2200 uf comes to mind low esr . this will give your eb a boost .
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 10, 2010, 11:13:25 AM

Quote from: The Observer on December 10, 2010, 10:25:52 AM
Gadget,

Nice to you see you.
You don't know me, but suffice it to say that I am a fan.

You said,
Basically, I would like to know your opinion.
How important are these two phenomena to you circuit designs?

1. Resonance.

2. High Ferromagnetic Permeability. (a high concentration of rotatable magnetic dipoles in the core)

I have deduced that these are vitally important to making an Impressive Joule Thief.
Do you agree ?

Best Regards,
The Observer

Well i have all but lost most of my mind and energy but if i remember correctly member jeanna went thru the whole permeability verse power . People here have made good Jt's with nails , air core , low perm ,ferrite radio rods toilet paper rolls(mk1):) . hard to say but i personally find i can get the toroids which are expensive and high permeability to put some serious power out . They are easier to work with and also the bigger ones are easier to wind . I look at it like a bell the bigger the louder . Resonance in my opinion is my key to producing the maximium output while lowering the input . picture a block of wood and strike it . Thump! now the same for a piece of metal . Ding! I know i don't make any sense at all and i shouldn't be typing on these meds i have to take including maranol . . Its just been a few good days for me in a long time to sit on a keyboard or even be up during the day before my daughter gets home from school . I would say without stepping on anyone's toes that i prefer High permeability than low and resonance is everything and one of the reasons i used tanks in the older circuits . . I have some really big high perm 7 and 9 inch toroid s and they can produce ten times the power of the one i showed with much less wire and tank components other that wire .I miss Alex . I dont know if you know Groundloop but he much Smarter than i could ever be and i almost bet he knows the answer . He one heck of a tecky and i am grateful i had the pleasure of him actually helping me on one of My projects . I was the guy who had stuff and hooked it up any and every-way i could till something good happens:) This included even parts placement even has an effect as well as magnets on a Jt I even experimented with germanium can transistors and cut the tops off and filled them with Barium powder and cooked them to make a better transistor :) bad mistake and i was right there smellin the smoke from em so in a lot of ways i just aint right but i try and you know what it works and some of those transistors produce there own power and lower the bias as low at 0.200 volts to make them oscillate
. Good to meet you sir have a wonderful Christmas and what ever endeavors you do i am sure you will succeed .

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: The Observer on December 10, 2010, 11:30:34 AM

Gadget,

Thanks for your prompt response.

You said,

Quotei prefer High permeability than low .
I have some really big high perm 7 and 9 inch toroid s
and they can produce ten times the power of the one i showed with much less wire

That is what I would expect.
Why?... because the rotating magnetic dipoles
powered by unpaired infinite electron spin
contained within any Ferromagnetic Substance contribute to the energy output.
--> see diagram below <---

Could you please articulate what you think about the phenomenon of resonance?

Thanks for the well wishes... same to you but more. ;o)

Best Regards,
The Observer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on December 10, 2010, 12:45:36 PM

Quote from: kb24 on December 10, 2010, 09:30:17 AM
The problem that i was facing is that i thought my JT is not working but actually it does work. It work with 1.5V battery but when i connect JT with my earth battery, it cant work.

The situation is like this:
1.5V battery with JT can light up 5led <-- this is to proved my JT worked

My earth battery(around 12V, 0.3mA) without JT can light up 5led(low intenstiy)

when i connect my Earth battery with JT can only light up 1LED(damn low intensity). When i try with 5LED, nothin happen.

May i know why?? It seem like when i connect earth battery to JT, the voltage drop. But it still work on normal battery.

KB

I agree with Gadgetmalls answer
A capacitor is your answer.

To explain a little more........ your earth battery has a pretty good output.......but that output is continuous.
It is enough to light a few LEDs
A JT works a little different ........it is pulses.
The JT may take less power overall ..........but when it turns on......it turns on hard.......the transistor conducts alot for a very brief time.
It is that brief high power pulse that is giving you problems
A capacitor across the battery will allow the earth battery to continuously charge the capacitor........ the capacitor will then provide a flow of energy with enough depth to handle the high current pulses

gary.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on December 10, 2010, 12:47:31 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on December 10, 2010, 07:15:22 AM
i Almost cracked a smile . OMG i almost forgot him and now...

Unfortunately to avoid controversy the secret will be buried with me but it's not ou its conversion of energy from one kind to the other ;D. And also all the info is in this thread to build one .there are no hidden parts and was wound to meet the resonance of the transistor with the Torroid which is high perm .There are no caps but there is two components that are simple . I as others found that Current in is decreased as the draw from secondaries increases so i have one winding that is dead shorted , Its a secondary that is a coil of wire connected together and the other component is a tiny magnet on the opposite side of the toroid and transistor .Magnets act funny on a torroid i found and they actually detune a circuit from resonance so my thinking was detune it with the magnet and retune it with the wire length not using any tank circuit but the wire it self . The whole thing was then dunked in Rubber latex . The black tape holds the fragile secondary wires to my female plug to keep them from breaking . The Components are outside for access . I built this maybe 15 months ago ? You all keep on building them bigger and better and have a MERRY Happy Christmas .

Albert D.

aka Gadget

Gadget

thanks...... I will see if I can make something similar.
I guess I agree with your view of what the magnet does........I have played with them a little........I did not find any extra power because of them........mostly I noticed that the JT started up at a higher voltage with magnets attached........

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: osiris on December 10, 2010, 12:52:49 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on December 05, 2010, 06:19:47 PM
You could start by an apology ...

i owe nobody nothing ... YAWN....

OSIRIS

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 10, 2010, 05:24:42 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on December 10, 2010, 07:15:22 AM
Magnets act funny on a torroid i found and they actually detune a circuit from resonance so my thinking was detune it with the magnet and retune it with the wire length not using any tank circuit but the wire it self.

Albert D.

aka Gadget

I wish you could elaborate on that part , to me it seems mist by most people .

(retune it with the wire length not using any tank circuit but the wire it self.)

Thanks

Dear friend .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: synchro1 on December 10, 2010, 08:45:58 PM

Here's a new video of 2 Funsaver chips lighting a cool white toroid to full brightness with 2 AA's. The toroid lamp has 4 electrodes.

http://www.youtube.com/user/zebok3?feature=mhum

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on December 10, 2010, 09:11:43 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on December 10, 2010, 12:45:36 PM
KB

I agree with Gadgetmalls answer
A capacitor is your answer.

To explain a little more........ your earth battery has a pretty good output.......but that output is continuous.
It is enough to light a few LEDs
A JT works a little different ........it is pulses.
The JT may take less power overall ..........but when it turns on......it turns on hard.......the transistor conducts alot for a very brief time.
It is that brief high power pulse that is giving you problems
A capacitor across the battery will allow the earth battery to continuously charge the capacitor........ the capacitor will then provide a flow of energy with enough depth to handle the high current pulses

gary.

Thanks to Gadgetmalls & resonanceman for advise. I dont have any caps with me now so have to wait till monday to get it. Nervous and eager to c the result!!

sorry to ask this, but where i supposed to connect my caps?

Those 12V and 0.3mA come from 27 units of EB connect in series with adding dilute salt solution ;D So currently finding ways to increase those ampere. Any suggestion instead of using salt?

Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on December 10, 2010, 09:37:02 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on December 10, 2010, 12:45:36 PM
KB

I agree with Gadgetmalls answer
A capacitor is your answer.

To explain a little more........ your earth battery has a pretty good output.......but that output is continuous.
It is enough to light a few LEDs
A JT works a little different ........it is pulses.
The JT may take less power overall ..........but when it turns on......it turns on hard.......the transistor conducts alot for a very brief time.
It is that brief high power pulse that is giving you problems
A capacitor across the battery will allow the earth battery to continuously charge the capacitor........ the capacitor will then provide a flow of energy with enough depth to handle the high current pulses

gary.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: chrisC on December 11, 2010, 12:09:11 AM

Quote from: XS-NRG on December 10, 2010, 12:08:56 AM
OMG somebody call Lawrence

Hahaha! He'll have fits!

cheers
chrisC

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on December 11, 2010, 12:54:06 AM

a video a hv transformer from goldmine..
regular jt setup with a cap across b-e.. mje13007
13 watt cfl
not bright
62 ma's

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3iwN21-iTw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3iwN21-iTw)

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on December 11, 2010, 02:35:26 AM

Albert,

>>I miss Alex . I dont know if you know Groundloop but he much Smarter than
>>i could ever be and i almost bet he knows the answer . He one heck of a
>>tecky and i am grateful i had the pleasure of him actually helping me on one
>>of My projects.

Thank you for the nice words. You should know that you are in my prays
and thoughts and I hope you get better soon. I was glad to see you post
here at the forum. It has been so long since I heard from you.

I still have the JT you sent me and has run many tests on the circuit. I have
discovered some new things based on that testing. I came very close to OU
with my new figure 8 cores. I was able to lit up a 230 VAC 25 Watt lamp
with only 29 Watt input. The 4 Watt loss was mainly in my bias circuit since my
coils did run cool and the transistors did not heat up too much. My new figure
8 core is still running but I have not solved the bias heating issue yet. Anyway,
it is good to see that you still can find the strength to post here. I miss you
being around here.

I have attached my newest figure 8 circuit. You can get very high output
voltages from this circuit. And the circuit does NOT behave like a normal
transformer where you get a output voltage based on the input to
output windings ratio. If someone build this circuit, please be careful
not touching the circuit when you run it a high power because it can
harm you.

Sorry to be a little off topic, Bill.

Alex, (Groundloop).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on December 11, 2010, 03:03:29 AM

Quote from: kb24 on December 10, 2010, 09:37:02 PM
Thanks to Gadgetmalls & resonanceman for advise. I dont have any caps with me now so have to wait till monday to get it. Nervous and eager to c the result!!

sorry to ask this, but where i supposed to connect my caps?

Those 12V and 0.3mA come from 27 units of EB connect in series with adding dilute salt solution ;D So currently finding ways to increase those ampere. Any suggestion instead of using salt?

Thanks

KB here is a schematic of the circuit

Any cap you add should help a little........although a good sized cap is best

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 11, 2010, 05:44:17 AM

Quote from: Groundloop on December 11, 2010, 02:35:26 AM
Albert,

>>I miss Alex . I dont know if you know Groundloop but he much Smarter than
>>i could ever be and i almost bet he knows the answer . He one heck of a
>>tecky and i am grateful i had the pleasure of him actually helping me on one
>>of My projects.

Thank you for the nice words. You should know that you are in my prays
and thoughts and I hope you get better soon. I was glad to see you post
here at the forum. It has been so long since I heard from you.

I still have the JT you sent me and has run many tests on the circuit. I have
discovered some new things based on that testing. I came very close to OU
with my new figure 8 cores. I was able to lit up a 230 VAC 25 Watt lamp
with only 29 Watt input. The 4 Watt loss was mainly in my bias circuit since my
coils did run cool and the transistors did not heat up too much. My new figure
8 core is still running but I have not solved the bias heating issue yet. Anyway,
it is good to see that you still can find the strength to post here. I miss you
being around here.

I have attached my newest figure 8 circuit. You can get very high output
voltages from this circuit. And the circuit does NOT behave like a normal
transformer where you get a output voltage based on the input to
output windings ratio. If someone build this circuit, please be careful
not touching the circuit when you run it a high power because it can
harm you.

Sorry to be a little off topic, Bill.

Alex, (Groundloop).

Alex:

Nothing you guys, the experimenters, can post here will ever be off topic. So please, don't ever be concerned with that. It is all related anyway.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on December 11, 2010, 06:45:00 AM

@ Anyone that can help,

In this diagram of my charge circuit I have 2.140v after the red LED charging light, then going into the
55 F supercap through the diode, I have 1.927v charging cap.
I have 2.128v going to the green LED.

I have tried to put a diode also feeding in to the green LED, so the green LED will be getting the same volts
as the cap, but when I added the extra diode, the green LED would not work anymore, why ????

Is there another way to have the same volts going into the green LED (1.927v) as the cap is getting (1.927 v) ????
Without taking the cap diode out, otherwise the cap will leak into the green LED and I dont want that !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on December 11, 2010, 07:05:13 AM

Quote from: resonanceman on December 11, 2010, 03:03:29 AM
KB here is a schematic of the circuit

Any cap you add should help a little........although a good sized cap is best

gary

But if i use larger caps, will it be possibility that the led wouldnt turn on due to voltage not enough to pass through large caps?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on December 11, 2010, 07:21:56 AM

Quote from: freepow on December 11, 2010, 06:45:00 AM
@ Anyone that can help,

In this diagram of my charge circuit I have 2.140v after the red LED charging light, then going into the
55 F supercap through the diode, I have 1.927v charging cap.
I have 2.128v going to the green LED.

I have tried to put a diode also feeding in to the green LED, so the green LED will be getting the same volts
as the cap, but when I added the extra diode, the green LED would not work anymore, why ????

Is there another way to have the same volts going into the green LED (1.927v) as the cap is getting (1.927 v) ????
Without taking the cap diode out, otherwise the cap will leak into the green LED and I dont want that !

Hi Freepow,
I'll take a look for you. One point though!! you can't have two different voltages at points which are connected together though? just re_check your circuit again. The green LED's anode needs to be on the source side of the charge circuit i.e. on the anode side of the red LED. I take it the red LED is extinguished when the super cap is charged up, and you want the Green led lit to indicate same. What voltage is your power source into your circuit. Just check these points first for me and I'll redesign the charge circuit for you. Can you also if possible provide the charge current through the diode to supper cap if possible. Don't worrry if not. Regards

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 11, 2010, 07:43:13 AM

Quote from: kb24 on December 11, 2010, 07:05:13 AM
But if i use larger caps, will it be possibility that the led wouldnt turn on due to voltage not enough to pass through large caps?

I was only able to really light a lot of leds from my EB once I began using very large supercaps. I simply put them in parallel with the JT and the EB. My original EB would only light a red led and from that, I was able to power a Fuji JT to light a 48" tube and later, 400 leds once i used supercaps. This was a great suggestion given to you. I know it will work.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on December 11, 2010, 07:58:37 AM

Hi Gadgetmall how are you? Nice hearing from you. Thanks for sharing your circuits. Wish you health and happiness.
If you can see this video it might be helpful:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEGKT6UqzFs

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on December 11, 2010, 08:30:21 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 11, 2010, 07:43:13 AM
I was only able to really light a lot of leds from my EB once I began using very large supercaps. I simply put them in parallel with the JT and the EB. My original EB would only light a red led and from that, I was able to power a Fuji JT to light a 48" tube and later, 400 leds once i used supercaps. This was a great suggestion given to you. I know it will work.

Bill

I have seen all ur video on EB, and its truly amazing. I definitely gonna try it once i get those caps. But may i know how to put cap in parallel with JT and EB? Resonanceman has provide me the diagram(reply 14316).. Is it the same with what u have suggest? I have little knowledge in electronic and wish to learn more.. :D

Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 11, 2010, 08:34:05 AM

Quote from: kb24 on December 11, 2010, 08:30:21 AM
I have seen all ur video on EB, and its truly amazing. I definitely gonna try it once i get those caps. But may i know how to put cap in parallel with JT and EB? Resonanceman has provide me the diagram(reply 14316).. Is it the same with what u have suggest? I have little knowledge in electronic and wish to learn more.. :D

Thanks

Yes, it should be. Parallel just means that you could remove the caps from the circuit, and there still would be a circuit. so, I just took the + and - from the EB and ran it to my JT and where I connected to my JT I tapped in and place the supercaps using jumper wires. so, the original circuit was still there, I just added the caps in addition.

Thanks for watching my videos.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on December 11, 2010, 03:18:48 PM

@All,

Today I did a lot of testing on my figure 8 oscillator.
I got rid of the bias heating (in the resistor and pot) by
making a new trigger coil with fewer turns. So now the
coils, the resistor and the potmeter runs cool, but now
the transistors gets hot. So it seems that I have moved
my heating problem to the transistors. Hmmm.....
Maybe I should try Mosfets instead?

Alex.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: synchro1 on December 11, 2010, 08:37:52 PM

Here's a new video of the twin chips packeged in the spool with the batteries for legs:

http://www.youtube.com/user/zebok3

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on December 12, 2010, 01:35:20 AM

Quote from: synchro1 on December 11, 2010, 08:37:52 PM
Here's a new video of the twin chips packeged in the spool with the batteries for legs:

http://www.youtube.com/user/zebok3

what is the draw on the batterys..
i haven't seen a fun saver in awhile..
might have to get me one..
right now i am just going to rewind my fugi primanys so i can use them in my solar lights..
i can get these fugi transformer down to 48 ma's and still light a 9 watt cfl..
people thinks its kool when they see my solar lights running and i tell them they are solar powered..
this time i am going to epoxy my transformers cause my old ones didn't last all year..

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on December 12, 2010, 02:41:49 AM

@ crowclaw, This circuit works great !

Input voltage around 3.5v
When I put the switch on, the red-LED comes on (this shows the power is on for charging)
at this point we -1.5v approx for the red-LED, so we are left with about 2.0v going to the green-LED (full charge light), now I have a diode then the supercap and we have about
2.0v -.25v approx for the diode, which leave's us about 1.75v filling the cap.
The only reason I put the diode here is so when I use the cap for my joulethief, the supercap wont leak its power into the green-LED (full charge light).

Now as soon as the supercap charge rises to around 1.25v, the green-LED comes on to show the supercap is kinda full, you see the green-LED is getting 1.5v at this point because of the -.25v for diode.
when really the supercap should be getting 1.5v and the green-LED would then light up because its getting the same,

The thing is the voltage going direct to the green-LED and to the supercap would have been
equal, which is what I want, but adding the diode before the supercap stop the supercap lighting the green-LED when I put the charge switch off.

I just want the supercap to charge up and the green-LED to come on when its full, but now I have only 1.75v charging up the cap and 2.0v going to the green-LED, I need both to be the same, and still keeping the diode where it is !

sorry for the long reply.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on December 12, 2010, 07:48:12 AM

Quote from: freepow on December 12, 2010, 02:41:49 AM

The thing is the voltage going direct to the green-LED and to the supercap would have been
equal, which is what I want, but adding the diode before the supercap stop the supercap lighting the green-LED when I put the charge switch off.

I just want the supercap to charge up and the green-LED to come on when its full, but now I have only 1.75v charging up the cap and 2.0v going to the green-LED, I need both to be the same, and still keeping the diode where it is !

sorry for the long reply.

That's ok I need to clarify how you are using your circuit. So your source is charging up the supercap as indicated by your red LED. When your cap reaches is fully charged point the green LED has to illuminate to show a charge condition exists...do you then remove the power source knowing that the cap is charged, as indicated by the green LED. in which case the supply current for the green LED can come from the source, I can then devise the best way to achieve the result you are after. Or do you have a preset time period to charge up the cap after which the supply source turns off and you want to rely on the green LED to indicate this state has been achieved? or may be a circuit that terminates the charge cycle when the cap is "full"

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: FatBird on December 12, 2010, 08:36:28 AM

Great drawing Groundloop.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: FatBird on December 12, 2010, 08:58:28 AM

What software package do you use to make your drawings?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on December 12, 2010, 09:10:58 AM

@FatBird,

Thanks for the nice words.

Well, my ratnest proto type build looks like a mess, so I prefer to post clear and
to the point circuit drawings. The software I use to make simple circuit drawings
is Windows Paint. I use Eagle CAD (form www.cadsoft.de) in more complex drawings
where I also want to make printed circuit boards.

I'm currentely running my circuit for test, charging and desulphating a 12 volt 7 ampH
gel cell battery. The battery is slowly coming back to life now.

Groundloop.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on December 12, 2010, 11:46:19 AM

Quote from: crowclaw on December 12, 2010, 07:48:12 AM

Hi Freepow, something you can try. You have two 1k resistors to the base... substitute the bottom one for a 10k. Next substitute the top one for a 2.2k... leave the base end connected but disconnect it from the transistor collector side and instead connect it to your super cap. (2.2k from supercap to base) Next disconnect the green LED anode and take it over to the red LED anode side. Finally disconnect emitter from ground and replace link with a 15r resistor. When the supercap reaches 1.5v the green led should be lit. Note try the values I've suggested, the 2.2k adjust the base turn on point, and the 15r will restrict the current flow through the LED. Regards

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: synchro1 on December 12, 2010, 05:57:28 PM

There's a new finished job video of the Flash Toroid with a push button on off switch and improved base.

http://www.youtube.com/user/zebok3?feature=mhum

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on December 12, 2010, 08:32:32 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 11, 2010, 08:34:05 AM
Yes, it should be. Parallel just means that you could remove the caps from the circuit, and there still would be a circuit. so, I just took the + and - from the EB and ran it to my JT and where I connected to my JT I tapped in and place the supercaps using jumper wires. so, the original circuit was still there, I just added the caps in addition.

Thanks for watching my videos.

Bill

i have try by adding the different size of caps( 1uF, 47uF, 220uF) on my joule thief. My EB + JT without caps can light up 1 led full intensity. But after i add on caps( 1uF, 47uF, 220uF), the light get dimmer. So what the problem with my JT? Is it something wrong with my toroid?

My toroid consist of 22 turns and 19turns.. Is this correct?

Adding caps doesnt effect on anything. So what is the possibility for this?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on December 12, 2010, 10:05:46 PM

Quote from: kb24 on December 12, 2010, 08:32:32 PM
i have try by adding the different size of caps( 1uF, 47uF, 220uF) on my joule thief. My EB + JT without caps can light up 1 led full intensity. But after i add on caps( 1uF, 47uF, 220uF), the light get dimmer. So what the problem with my JT? Is it something wrong with my toroid?

My toroid consist of 22 turns and 19turns.. Is this correct?

Adding caps doesnt effect on anything. So what is the possibility for this?

KB

All of those caps should be enough to get your JT working right.
Are you sure you are hooking them up right?
Can you post a picture of it with a cap hooked up?

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on December 12, 2010, 10:23:44 PM

Here i attached my JT(sorry for bad drawing).. I didnt use any resistor. and i try adding caps but it didnt have any effect.. but it make my led dimmer.. Is my toroid connection correct? Plz give some comment..

Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on December 12, 2010, 10:32:06 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on December 12, 2010, 10:05:46 PM
KB

All of those caps should be enough to get your JT working right.
Are you sure you are hooking them up right?
Can you post a picture of it with a cap hooked up?

gary

I put another clip from my EB positive to longer side of caps and negative EB to shorter side.. Is that correct?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on December 12, 2010, 11:01:17 PM

actually, my jt consider been working fine even without caps. I can power up 1 LED using 1 unit of my EB. Normally i need 3unit of EB to power up 1 LED.

So what is usage/function of adding caps into it?

And what improvement should b make in order to power up CFL? i have 9W cfl with me now.. hopefully can power it up

Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: The Observer on December 13, 2010, 12:31:24 AM

Kb,

You said,

QuoteActually, my jt consider been working fine even without caps.
I can power up 1 LED using 1 unit of my EB. Normally i need 3unit of EB to power up 1 LED.

So what is usage/function of adding caps into it?

And what improvement should I make in order to power up CFL?
I have 9W cfl with me now.. hopefully can power it up

Thanks

There are 3 main ways to light a CFL with a JT that I am aware of... ( the more experienced can add to this list )

1. Use a "large" Ferrite Core (Torroid) of High Magnetic Permeability with lots of turns.

2. Modify a Disposable Flash Camera Circuit (Look up Gadgetmall Camera Circuit)

3. Buy an Auto Ignition Coil, find it's Resonant Frequency, then tune your JT to resonate I-Coil (output from I-Coil lights CFL)

Best of Luck,
The Observer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on December 13, 2010, 12:40:19 AM

Quote from: The Observer on December 13, 2010, 12:31:24 AM
Kb,

You said,
There are 3 main ways to light a CFL with a JT that I am aware of... ( the more experienced can add to this list )

1. Use a "large" Ferrite Core (Torroid) of High Magnetic Permeability with lots of turns.

2. Modify a Disposable Flash Camera Circuit (Look up Gadgetmall Camera Circuit)

3. Buy an Auto Ignition Coil, find it's Resonant Frequency, then tune your JT to resonate I-Coil (output from I-Coil lights CFL)

Best of Luck,
The Observer

Thanks for the info.. i will be getting my fuji circuit on thursday.. hopefully can work..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on December 13, 2010, 02:48:01 AM

Quote from: kb24 on December 12, 2010, 10:23:44 PM
Here i attached my JT(sorry for bad drawing).. I didnt use any resistor. and i try adding caps but it didnt have any effect.. but it make my led dimmer.. Is my toroid connection correct? Plz give some comment..

Thanks

KB

If you can light up any LED with your earth battery then the JT connections are right.
You might try expermenting with the number of windings of both your primary and secondary.
Try adding a few windings to your secondary .
Sometimes removing a few windings from the primary can raise the voltage too.

I added a capacitor to your drawing

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on December 13, 2010, 02:57:04 AM

Yup, i connect caps exactly like in the diagram.. but one thing i notice is that is if i use more cell plus capacitors, the light wouldnt dim.. if i only use one single cell plus capacitors, i can notice the light dim..

Yup, i have try by lessen the winding.. it works.. ;D gonna get my fuji circuit on thursday.. That time will try with my EB.. do u think i can light up CFL with 12V from EB? curious to know.. lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on December 13, 2010, 03:13:37 AM

Quote from: kb24 on December 13, 2010, 02:57:04 AM
Yup, i connect caps exactly like in the diagram.. but one thing i notice is that is if i use more cell plus capacitors, the light wouldnt dim.. if i only use one single cell plus capacitors, i can notice the light dim..

Yup, i have try by lessen the winding.. it works.. ;D gonna get my fuji circuit on thursday.. That time will try with my EB.. do u think i can light up CFL with 12V from EB? curious to know.. lol

KB

just play with the windings for a while
I suggest focusing on the primary first.
play around with the number of winding ......take them off 1 at a time and record what voltage you get from your secondary ...... the voltage should go up as you take windings off........up to a point.......once you reach the best voltage you can get the voltage will start dropping as you remove windings.
This is called tuning the primary.
Once the primary is tuned.........you can add a few windings at a time to your secondary ........at some point the voltage will stop going up .......that is your upper limit for that particular voltage with that particular toroid.
I do not know what kind of toroid you are using.
if you want to make a JT that will light a CFL I would suggest using a large toroid or the core from a flyback transformer.
It is hard to light a CFL with a small toroid........ you run out of space for your secondary windings.

The fuji will probably be the quickest and easiest way to light a CFL ......I would try with a battery first.......then with your earth battery

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on December 13, 2010, 03:27:47 AM

Quote from: resonanceman on December 13, 2010, 03:13:37 AM
KB

just play with the windings for a while
I suggest focusing on the primary first.
play around with the number of winding ......take them off 1 at a time and record what voltage you get from your secondary ...... the voltage should go up as you take windings off........up to a point.......once you reach the best voltage you can get the voltage will start dropping as you remove windings.
This is called tuning the primary.
Once the primary is tuned.........you can add a few windings at a time to your secondary ........at some point the voltage will stop going up .......that is your upper limit for that particular voltage with that particular toroid.
I do not know what kind of toroid you are using.
if you want to make a JT that will light a CFL I would suggest using a large toroid or the core from a flyback transformer.
It is hard to light a CFL with a small toroid........ you run out of space for your secondary windings.

The fuji will probably be the quickest and easiest way to light a CFL ......I would try with a battery first.......then with your earth battery

gary

Yup, thanks for the advise.. The toroid that i have been using is the one i get from the car audio amplifier.. can it be used?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 13, 2010, 10:30:38 AM

Quote from: kb24 on December 12, 2010, 08:32:32 PM
i have try by adding the different size of caps( 1uF, 47uF, 220uF) on my joule thief. My EB + JT without caps can light up 1 led full intensity. But after i add on caps( 1uF, 47uF, 220uF), the light get dimmer. So what the problem with my JT? Is it something wrong with my toroid?

My toroid consist of 22 turns and 19turns.. Is this correct?

Adding caps doesnt effect on anything. So what is the possibility for this?

I am talking supercaps here....like 10 F, 50F and now I am up to 650Farads. These larger Farad sized caps made all of the difference for me as they took the pulses and spikes and stored them as usable energy.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on December 13, 2010, 01:11:53 PM

@Kb24,
The more cap's you add into your circuit the greater the current stored... you add all the values together. Make sure you connect them as Bill suggested all in parallel.
You may find that initially due to the total capacitance value they may take a while to charge up. The cap's impedance will be a lot lower so the JT's ability to provide an adequate charge may take a while to overcome (depends on you JT design) as the cap's take on charge the impedance will rise until they are fully charged. Final point... make sure you have polarities connected correctly i.e. all +++ together and all - - - together. regards Merv

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: shylo on December 13, 2010, 07:38:57 PM

Hi all I find this thread most amazing ,.......I've tried making a jt using salvaged parts no luck so far. Can you use a smaller cap to charge a bigger cap then another bigger cap,then pulse the coil on the core ,...kind of like a step up transformer ?.....sorry I know I'm totally lost.......shylo

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on December 13, 2010, 09:54:11 PM

Quote from: crowclaw on December 13, 2010, 01:11:53 PM
@Kb24,
The more cap's you add into your circuit the greater the current stored... you add all the values together. Make sure you connect them as Bill suggested all in parallel.
You may find that initially due to the total capacitance value they may take a while to charge up. The cap's impedance will be a lot lower so the JT's ability to provide an adequate charge may take a while to overcome (depends on you JT design) as the cap's take on charge the impedance will rise until they are fully charged. Final point... make sure you have polarities connected correctly i.e. all +++ together and all - - - together. regards Merv

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 13, 2010, 10:30:38 AM
I am talking supercaps here....like 10 F, 50F and now I am up to 650Farads. These larger Farad sized caps made all of the difference for me as they took the pulses and spikes and stored them as usable energy.

Bill

Thanks to all the positive input.. Working on it now.. Bill, may i know how much ur EB battery input to JT to light up CFL? Curious to know..

Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on December 13, 2010, 11:36:28 PM

its kinda getting more confusing for me now.. ???

My 24unit EB without JT can light up 5 LED
My 24unit EB with JT can only light up 1LED

But..

1unit EB without JT cannot light up 1LED
1unit EB with JT can light up 1LED

So its seem like my JT work only if voltage are low.. Perhaps like what have been suggested, adding caps might help.. Tried with one and few caps connected in parallel. It cant even light up but it did spark for a second after every 1minutes.

Perhaps caps size too small?

and from the figure, i circle the connection from 12turn toroid to base of caps. If i remove the caps, the led become much more brighter. If i connect it, it get much dimmer. Why?

I know everyone is getting repeating about using caps.. but adding few caps into my JT + 24unit EB, i stil cant light up 5 LED.. is it really if i get bigger caps like what Pirate88179 can solve it?

Really many thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 13, 2010, 11:47:15 PM

@kb24

I am jumping in so , sorry if it was said before .

First is the jt working if you connect it to a regular battery ? If not one wire is either connect backwards or not wound in the correct spin , regardless reversing the connection of one of the wire should do . If you still have a problem i would look at the transistor is it a PNP or NPN , the battery could be connected the wrong way too because not all transistor are alike , BTW what are you using ?

I will be waiting for more info to help further .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on December 14, 2010, 12:07:49 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on December 13, 2010, 11:47:15 PM
@kb24

I am jumping in so , sorry if it was said before .

First is the jt working if you connect it to a regular battery ? If not one wire is either connect backwards or not wound in the correct spin , regardless reversing the connection of one of the wire should do . If you still have a problem i would look at the transistor is it a PNP or NPN , the battery could be connected the wrong way too because not all transistor are alike , BTW what are you using ?

I will be waiting for more info to help further .

Mark

Thanks Mark. Yeah my JT work perfectly with normal AA battery. Can light up 5led with single AA battery. Right now, i am working earth battery with joule thief. My earth battery(EB) consist of 24units of cell in series. If i take 1 unit cells of EB, connect with JT, i can directly light up 1LED. But if i take 24units of EB with JT, i couldnt light up the 5LED. I just found out that as the moment my primarily winding at toroid touch the base of transistor, LED actually spark up in high intensity then gone.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 14, 2010, 12:39:36 AM

@kb24

Well , even if you got leds working it doesn't mean automatically that its connected properly , you said 5 leds is that all you got or all that works ?

Second , have tried to run it on a charged cap , you need i minimum of voltage in the capacitor , this is why you charge it slowly in the days time to use at night .

Now all jt are different , some use a pickup coil some don't , some consume more then others , how did you set yours ? some work on mili amps some on micro amps ?

Mark

I will answer tomorrow , now time for bed keep the faith !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 14, 2010, 02:28:16 AM

Quote from: kb24 on December 13, 2010, 09:54:11 PM
Thanks to all the positive input.. Working on it now.. Bill, may i know how much ur EB battery input to JT to light up CFL? Curious to know..

Thanks

First, I have never tried lighting a cfl from my EB...it probably could but I like the tubes and leds much better than messing with cfl's.

Second, the last time I checked it, and it has been a while, the EB was outputting just under 2 volts at about 19 mA's. I hope this helps.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on December 14, 2010, 02:30:28 AM

Quote from: kb24 on December 13, 2010, 03:27:47 AM
Yup, thanks for the advise.. The toroid that i have been using is the one i get from the car audio amplifier.. can it be used?

KB

Lighting a CFL requires a good sized toroid
I don't know what size your toroid is but I imagine that most toroids out of audio amps are pretty small........ but I could be wrong.

I am not saying that it can't be done
The transformer in the fuji has around 3000 wraps of very fine wire.
that transformer is much smaller than most toroids.
In theory it can be done.......but it would not be easy.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on December 14, 2010, 02:45:47 AM

Here i have my fuji circuit.. so i have remove the caps.. but get stuck with resistor.. which resistor i should remove? and how i supposed to connect those cfl to this circuit?

Its seem like my fuji circuit is different from http://josepino.com/circuits/fluorescent_light (http://josepino.com/circuits/fluorescent_light)

by the way, that red and black wire is for the suis.. am i connecting it rite?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 14, 2010, 04:09:06 AM

@kb

I had a second look at your jt schematics , you have no resistor on it ?

You will need to be more careful about tuning your jt , try using a 1 k pot , and look into the resonant tank circuit idea by Gadgetmall , you will need it .

I presume you have a multimeter and set the amp draw to the lowest by adjusting the resistance value to the lowest amp draw vs light .

Mark

And btw i am really not kidding , having leds work doesn't mean it is well connected , in the video i posted i assemble the circuit and show that the led will light even if the circuit is not connected properly ... I am here to help not to pass judgment or saying you did something wrong but there is more to it then meet the eye .

http://www.youtube.com/user/abramrk1#p/u/6/eiLcbTBewhw

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on December 14, 2010, 07:01:54 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on December 14, 2010, 04:09:06 AM
@kb

I had a second look at your jt schematics , you have no resistor on it ?

You will need to be more careful about tuning your jt , try using a 1 k pot , and look into the resonant tank circuit idea by Gadgetmall , you will need it .

I presume you have a multimeter and set the amp draw to the lowest by adjusting the resistance value to the lowest amp draw vs light .

Mark

And btw i am really not kidding , having leds work doesn't mean it is well connected , in the video i posted i assemble the circuit and show that the led will light even if the circuit is not connected properly ... I am here to help not to pass judgment or saying you did something wrong but there is more to it then meet the eye .

http://www.youtube.com/user/abramrk1#p/u/6/eiLcbTBewhw

Thanks Mark, and dont worry, i come here to learn since i really have zero knowledge in electronics. So every reply at here, i take it as input for me to improve myself. Thanks.

For resistor part, may i know the function of resistor at there and why i should have it? I remove it because i thought it will reduce my EB power.

Thanks for providing me the video for reference.

Quote from: Mk1 on December 14, 2010, 12:39:36 AM
@kb24

Well , even if you got leds working it doesn't mean automatically that its connected properly , you said 5 leds is that all you got or all that works ?

Second , have tried to run it on a charged cap , you need i minimum of voltage in the capacitor , this is why you charge it slowly in the days time to use at night .

I actually not understand how to charge cap. I try to google and search on how to charge a capacitor actually, mostly is tutorial on charging capacitor for audio amp.

I use single AA battery to light up 5 LED. I test the AA batery to light up 1 LED, but it cant. With JT i can light up 5LED. So does it consider my JT work?

Lot of question here :D Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on December 14, 2010, 07:18:42 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 14, 2010, 02:28:16 AM
First, I have never tried lighting a cfl from my EB...it probably could but I like the tubes and leds much better than messing with cfl's.

Second, the last time I checked it, and it has been a while, the EB was outputting just under 2 volts at about 19 mA's. I hope this helps.

Bill

Wow, 19mA is impressive. Thanks for the information.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on December 14, 2010, 10:25:27 PM

I think i start to understand bout capacitor.. i try connect caps(35V 220uF) directly to 9v battery for few minutes then i remove and connect parallel with my EB. I notice that my LED light boost up for 1 second. So i think all my testing before on caps was due to my caps are not charged yet..

I think i cant charge up my caps if i link it parallel with my EB battery. My EB only produce 0.1mA which is too low to charge up caps. What u guys think?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 15, 2010, 12:43:15 AM

Quote from: kb24 on December 14, 2010, 10:25:27 PM
I think i start to understand bout capacitor.. i try connect caps(35V 220uF) directly to 9v battery for few minutes then i remove and connect parallel with my EB. I notice that my LED light boost up for 1 second. So i think all my testing before on caps was due to my caps are not charged yet..

I think i cant charge up my caps if i link it parallel with my EB battery. My EB only produce 0.1mA which is too low to charge up caps. What u guys think?

I think you are on the right track now. The thing about caps and supercaps with the EB is that, my EB outputs very high spikes that my caps drink in and convert to usable power.

For example: My large boost cap is 650 F at 2.7 volts. Well, my EB outputs 1.9 volts give or take. After a few hours, that cap was charged to the full 2.7 volts. How can this be? I asked myself this and then took scope shots of my EB and saw some very huge spikes. So, unless I am wrong, I figured this was where the energy was coming form in my cap.

When we said charge your caps, I believe we meant to place them in parallel in the circuit and let your power source slowly charge them. If you can do this without a load it will happen quicker but they will charge either way.

I hope this helps.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on December 15, 2010, 01:01:25 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 15, 2010, 12:43:15 AM
I think you are on the right track now. The thing about caps and supercaps with the EB is that, my EB outputs very high spikes that my caps drink in and convert to usable power.

For example: My large boost cap is 650 F at 2.7 volts. Well, my EB outputs 1.9 volts give or take. After a few hours, that cap was charged to the full 2.7 volts. How can this be? I asked myself this and then took scope shots of my EB and saw some very huge spikes. So, unless I am wrong, I figured this was where the energy was coming form in my cap.

When we said charge your caps, I believe we meant to place them in parallel in the circuit and let your power source slowly charge them. If you can do this without a load it will happen quicker but they will charge either way.

I hope this helps.

Bill

I think i start to get it. The larger the farad for each caps, the lower the voltage rite? So tats why u recommend me to use larger caps since it require less voltage to fully charge it.. Plz correct me if i am wrong.. thanks ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on December 16, 2010, 01:07:33 PM

Quote from: kb24 on December 15, 2010, 01:01:25 AM
I think i start to get it. The larger the farad for each caps, the lower the voltage rite? So tats why u recommend me to use larger caps since it require less voltage to fully charge it.. Plz correct me if i am wrong.. thanks ;)

Charging capacitors is not that easy at first to try and understand... so don't worry.
Lets look at it this way, your JT outputs a certain voltage and current delivery capability. Lets say its a constant slow drip... drip...drip, if you place an egg cup under the drip it will take X time to fill up. As long as the drip is constant it will take the same amount of time to fill... OK. if you tip the egg cup, the contents will spill out and empty quite quickly. Look upon your egg cup then as a small capacitor of small value. Next repeat the same experiment but instead of your egg cup use a larger vessel say a large bowl. The drip remains at the same fill rate as before, but now the bowl takes a lot longer to fill up, like wise if you allow it to empty at the same rate as the egg cup it takes a lot longer to empty due to its volume (capacity) of water, but you also have a greater volume of water to use and do more work with. All capacitors charge and discharge at a rate determined by what is known as the time constant measured in seconds = the product of the circuits resistance (ohm's) and the circuit capacitance (farads)
t =RC. I hope my simple analogy goes towards a better understanding. Note of course we are dealing with a JT circuit and have to understand that the JT produces spikes of pulsed DC and as Bill has discovered additional pulsed energy which has further increase the voltage charge on his EB cap's. If you are not familiar with Ohm's Law or time constant RC circuits, take a little time to search the web I'm sure you will appreciate a better understanding and will help you move forward in this fascinating thread. Merv

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 16, 2010, 07:01:56 PM

Yes the Jt is Interesting and gave me a Boost seeing the forum still has eager beavers wanting to make light and stuff . This has probably been done before by many people but i thru it together without knowing what i was doing again . what i will never understand is why it always shows some gain . the next step in this little circuit is see if it can be hooked up to maybe a scope and see the difference that i see with multimeter s and my eyes .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOnAtvn4kts

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 16, 2010, 07:27:18 PM

Quote from: kb24 on December 14, 2010, 02:45:47 AM
Here i have my fuji circuit.. so i have remove the caps.. but get stuck with resistor.. which resistor i should remove? and how i supposed to connect those cfl to this circuit?

Its seem like my fuji circuit is different from http://josepino.com/circuits/fluorescent_light (http://josepino.com/circuits/fluorescent_light)

by the way, that red and black wire is for the suis.. am i connecting it rite?

HI . remove the red and black wire . not needed . also you cut the correct diode but you need to jump it with a piece of wire . this along with the the trigger transformer ( the one in front of the diode )can be removed . then one more thing is a resistor that is between the trigger transformer and a silver Hv capacitor . this is where you put a variable resistor in place of that resistor . you should light a cfl easy if you do these modifications to that aaa fugi . The CFL tube must be removed from the screwin electronics if you are using a spiral cfl . Or use a florescent tube and the connections are where the high voltage capacitor were . this is your output . it is HOT so be careful and dont kill yourself :)
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 16, 2010, 07:36:03 PM

@gadget

Hi gadget , glad to see you feeling better , i was wondering if you had a chance to see this video i made , i light leds from the battery leads ... ,the radiant high freq returns to the battery maybe a diode could recharge the battery , this was a dual joule thief one PNP and one NPN one core each but once everything is working i change the connections so the base coil of each transistor is on the opposite core .
I did this to sync both circuits , the output from the transistor it self is around 120 volts and got 2 of those phase reversed .

http://www.youtube.com/user/abramrk1#p/u/4/cJsz2Kd4R7o

it starts about half way .

The coil is my t-paper coil small one connected to 3 White led it need about 4 volts to light those , it doesn't use avarmenko plugs , you know leds are diodes avramenko 2 diodes one led or 3 led ...

Mark

Edit Btw good work the video is a bit hard to see , i bit more light would have helped the camera , but the work is great as usual !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: j037m on December 17, 2010, 01:08:22 AM

hi all im new here on posting message on jt thread just like to say been reading so many post here about jt and also asking some question( on message) on bro mark which help me alot and bro bill and sis jeanna i also made my first jt work and now making something like bro mark did on 1'' toroid and sis jeanna's light i also finish my fuji camera circuit and work well by following some post of bro bill .. as soon i make some picture on it or video ill post all my finish project ... thanks a lot this thread helps a lot.. ;D

;)joey

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on December 17, 2010, 09:09:35 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on December 16, 2010, 07:27:18 PM
HI . remove the red and black wire . not needed . also you cut the correct diode but you need to jump it with a piece of wire . this along with the the trigger transformer ( the one in front of the diode )can be removed . then one more thing is a resistor that is between the trigger transformer and a silver Hv capacitor . this is where you put a variable resistor in place of that resistor . you should light a cfl easy if you do these modifications to that aaa fugi . The CFL tube must be removed from the screwin electronics if you are using a spiral cfl . Or use a florescent tube and the connections are where the high voltage capacitor were . this is your output . it is HOT so be careful and dont kill yourself :)
Gadget

Thanks so much for such a detail explanation. :D So i have draw out all modification that i need to make. But i still cant understand some parts.

Jumper wire, i connect the jumper wire from diode leg i cut to where?

Did i get the correct trigger transformer that u have mention?

And i need to replace resistor between silver cap and transformer with variable resistor. Can i know which type of variable resistor u refer to? I google it and find quite lot of range of variable resistor

i removed the 4.7m resistor. Should i put it back?

and finally, at which point should i connect the output to cfl?

Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on December 17, 2010, 10:56:27 AM

Quote from: crowclaw on December 16, 2010, 01:07:33 PM
Charging capacitors is not that easy at first to try and understand... so don't worry.
Lets look at it this way, your JT outputs a certain voltage and current delivery capability. Lets say its a constant slow drip... drip...drip, if you place an egg cup under the drip it will take X time to fill up. As long as the drip is constant it will take the same amount of time to fill... OK. if you tip the egg cup, the contents will spill out and empty quite quickly. Look upon your egg cup then as a small capacitor of small value. Next repeat the same experiment but instead of your egg cup use a larger vessel say a large bowl. The drip remains at the same fill rate as before, but now the bowl takes a lot longer to fill up, like wise if you allow it to empty at the same rate as the egg cup it takes a lot longer to empty due to its volume (capacity) of water, but you also have a greater volume of water to use and do more work with. All capacitors charge and discharge at a rate determined by what is known as the time constant measured in seconds = the product of the circuits resistance (ohm's) and the circuit capacitance (farads)
t =RC. I hope my simple analogy goes towards a better understanding. Note of course we are dealing with a JT circuit and have to understand that the JT produces spikes of pulsed DC and as Bill has discovered additional pulsed energy which has further increase the voltage charge on his EB cap's. If you are not familiar with Ohm's Law or time constant RC circuits, take a little time to search the web I'm sure you will appreciate a better understanding and will help you move forward in this fascinating thread. Merv

Thanks for advise ya!! I start to get what u try to convey here.. Seem like more and more thing to learn ya.. ;) google right now to get more info on it :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: j037m on December 17, 2010, 12:39:09 PM

Quote from: kb24 on December 17, 2010, 09:09:35 AM
Thanks so much for such a detail explanation. :D So i have draw out all modification that i need to make. But i still cant understand some parts.

Jumper wire, i connect the jumper wire from diode leg i cut to where?

Did i get the correct trigger transformer that u have mention?

And i need to replace resistor between silver cap and transformer with variable resistor. Can i know which type of variable resistor u refer to? I google it and find quite lot of range of variable resistor

i removed the 4.7m resistor. Should i put it back?

and finally, at which point should i connect the output to cfl?

Thanks

@kb24
i have same fuji board like yours i just follow this thread even its not same like mine but the basic things that it show help me which to removed and which is not hope this help you the thread is here >>
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.290
it light my cfl and my 100 led xmas lights also also shock me a little coz i forgot it has high volt lolz
;Djoey

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on December 18, 2010, 10:20:01 AM

Quote from: j037m on December 17, 2010, 12:39:09 PM
@kb24
i have same fuji board like yours i just follow this thread even its not same like mine but the basic things that it show help me which to removed and which is not hope this help you the thread is here >>
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.290
it light my cfl and my 100 led xmas lights also also shock me a little coz i forgot it has high volt lolz
;Djoey

Hi, i actually have try according to link u provided. But problem is i still cant light it up. There no output at all.. Would u mine to post up your circuit? thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: j037m on December 18, 2010, 03:58:43 PM

Quote from: kb24 on December 18, 2010, 10:20:01 AM
Hi, i actually have try according to link u provided. But problem is i still cant light it up. There no output at all.. Would u mine to post up your circuit? thanks

follow this pic i put this will help
;Djoey

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: j037m on December 18, 2010, 04:08:33 PM

Quote from: j037m on December 18, 2010, 03:58:43 PM
follow this pic i put this will help
;Djoey

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on December 19, 2010, 10:06:04 AM

Quote from: j037m on December 18, 2010, 03:58:43 PM
follow this pic i put this will help
;Djoey

hi, would u mine to put white background for ur text? bcoz i can barely see those text :D thanks. Btw, is it i'm cutting the wrong diode leg?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on December 19, 2010, 10:35:23 AM

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: j037m on December 19, 2010, 01:13:19 PM

Quote from: kb24 on December 19, 2010, 10:06:04 AM
hi, would u mine to put white background for ur text? bcoz i can barely see those text :D thanks. Btw, is it i'm cutting the wrong diode leg?

(on diode text ) wrong cut. cut the other side not
that one look at the broo xee pic that provided

(on resistor text) when removed the neon i put the
other end of the tube on that place were the
neon is so locate were the neon and put the
other end of tube there and on that same line
look if one of the resistor is on that spot
meaning that spot is the right
side of the tube to be connected and as i
can see here this is the one im telling you
now if this resistor is same circuit on the neon
you just removed then connect the other tube here
follow the line and connect the other end of tbe there.

==thats the text on the pic diode side and resistor side==
;Djoey

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on December 20, 2010, 06:39:19 AM

@ All

I now have my 5 yo son's nightlight up and working for the last few days, all I have to do is switch the charge switch on and the red(LED) comes on to show it charging the supercap, then when it has reached the charge that I want it to in the supercap, then the green(LED) comes on, I then switch the charge switch off.

When night comes and we put our 5 yo son to bed, I switch his nightlight on, and it shines quite good for
1x LED, and it usually lasts all night till morning, then its quite dim in the morning.

I usually charge the supercap up to only about 1.3-1.5v ,that seems to light the LED all night for him.

I could charge it up to 2.5v or even 2.7 if I wanted to, but hey! it works fine as it is...

The box is a clear lid one at approx 60x65x40mm dimensions, the small solar cell is outside at 4.0v 80mA.

The current draw is very low for this 1x LED joulethief.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on December 20, 2010, 09:23:03 AM

Quote from: j037m on December 19, 2010, 01:13:19 PM
(on diode text ) wrong cut. cut the other side not
that one look at the broo xee pic that provided

(on resistor text) when removed the neon i put the
other end of the tube on that place were the
neon is so locate were the neon and put the
other end of tube there and on that same line
look if one of the resistor is on that spot
meaning that spot is the right
side of the tube to be connected and as i
can see here this is the one im telling you
now if this resistor is same circuit on the neon
you just removed then connect the other tube here
follow the line and connect the other end of tbe there.

==thats the text on the pic diode side and resistor side==
;Djoey

wana ask bout diode thing. After i cut off one of diode leg, so i just leave those cut off leg like that? what should i do with it?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on December 20, 2010, 11:53:21 AM

Quote from: j037m on December 19, 2010, 01:13:19 PM
(on diode text ) wrong cut. cut the other side not
that one look at the broo xee pic that provided

(on resistor text) when removed the neon i put the
other end of the tube on that place were the
neon is so locate were the neon and put the
other end of tube there and on that same line
look if one of the resistor is on that spot
meaning that spot is the right
side of the tube to be connected and as i
can see here this is the one im telling you
now if this resistor is same circuit on the neon
you just removed then connect the other tube here
follow the line and connect the other end of tbe there.

==thats the text on the pic diode side and resistor side==
;Djoey

test with this circuit but my output is to multimeter to measure the voltage but the voltage seem to be 0. But one thing i notice is that transistor become very hot. Any idea what's wrong?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: j037m on December 20, 2010, 02:11:13 PM

Quote from: kb24 on December 20, 2010, 11:53:21 AM
test with this circuit but my output is to multimeter to measure the voltage but the voltage seem to be 0. But one thing i notice is that transistor become very hot. Any idea what's wrong?

no the transistor must not become hot ... also did you follow this attach pic which i give the link on the first post i give to you coz you must follow it like the jumper .. notice the battery outlet if on your fuji circuit you dont have holes look on this picture provided and see were the oter side of that jumper connected meaning thats the right line even theres no hole on it ..
;Djoey
note : removed the diode dont use it coz the way i see your picture you using it by soldering it to your wire and connecting the tube on it on my circuit i cut it but didnt use it instead i leaved it there but remain cut and the wire i put is solder to the uncut side of diode.. just look on the picture on my first post link you will see the difference on it and on yours hope this help..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on December 20, 2010, 11:28:43 PM

Quote from: j037m on December 20, 2010, 02:11:13 PM
no the transistor must not become hot ... also did you follow this attach pic which i give the link on the first post i give to you coz you must follow it like the jumper .. notice the battery outlet if on your fuji circuit you dont have holes look on this picture provided and see were the oter side of that jumper connected meaning thats the right line even theres no hole on it ..
;Djoey
note : removed the diode dont use it coz the way i see your picture you using it by soldering it to your wire and connecting the tube on it on my circuit i cut it but didnt use it instead i leaved it there but remain cut and the wire i put is solder to the uncut side of diode.. just look on the picture on my first post link you will see the difference on it and on yours hope this help..

from my circuit, i couldnt found any hole or line for me to put jumper on it as u can c from the diagram. Any idea on where should i put those jumper? ???

should i remove the diode cut leg or i just leave it there?

thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: j037m on December 21, 2010, 12:17:16 AM

Quote from: kb24 on December 20, 2010, 11:28:43 PM
from my circuit, i couldnt found any hole or line for me to put jumper on it as u can c from the diagram. Any idea on where should i put those jumper? ???

should i remove the diode cut leg or i just leave it there?

thanks

look on this and follow maybe this works coz i look on my diagram and the jumper is line with the one im pointing on the pic i provided

joey

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: j037m on December 21, 2010, 12:22:56 AM

my fuji circuit xmas light
;Djoey

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: j037m on December 21, 2010, 12:31:20 AM

more
;Djoey

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: j037m on December 21, 2010, 12:36:54 AM

look how bright when close up thanks to some post provided here by bro bill it helps a lot
;Djoey

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: j037m on December 21, 2010, 01:05:34 AM

my small toroid from cfl
;Djoey

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: j037m on December 21, 2010, 01:07:12 AM

my cfl lights up by fuji circuit

;Djoey

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on December 21, 2010, 01:07:32 AM

my circuit didnt have this extra part here. it seem to been cut off already ??? so what should i do?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on December 21, 2010, 01:09:13 AM

so wish that i could have done this fuji before christmas :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: j037m on December 21, 2010, 01:31:56 AM

post the picture of your fuji circuit now bottom and top meaning the one that you have now and not the one you post before let me see what we can do on it the bottom (with the circuit) and the top (with the parts) also locate the pin of the transformer for me one side of it has 4 pins and the other has 2 pins looking from the bottom

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on December 21, 2010, 01:58:18 AM

Quote from: j037m on December 21, 2010, 01:31:56 AM
post the picture of your fuji circuit now bottom and top meaning the one that you have now and not the one you post before let me see what we can do on it the bottom (with the circuit) and the top (with the parts) also locate the pin of the transformer for me one side of it has 4 pins and the other has 2 pins looking from the bottom

Did i get the correct transformer leg?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on December 21, 2010, 07:44:51 AM

hi everyone im back on the scene again lost interest for a little while money and other problems got me rather down.
i still have money problems but learning to cope better.

while i been away i been thinking of a test about battery chargeing and i think it may sort the question out of what charges a battery best the joule thief or the nrmal way we charge a battery.
i have to catch up on a few (few erm more like a few hundred pages lol)
befor i will start to join in again got to find out were you all have got to again so hope to speak soon have fun all

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on December 21, 2010, 08:10:33 AM

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on December 21, 2010, 09:05:27 AM

kb25 what is the voltage and ampage you get from one cell of your eb

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on December 21, 2010, 09:21:30 AM

wow i wasent that many pages behind lol.

ok my test was to have an automated system for testing a joule thief charge vs a standerd charge

the idea is 2 solar panels garden light ones are good as long as they give the same voltage and ampage

on the postive side we wont a low voltage drop diode

on circuit one this goes to the battery
on circuit two this goes to the jt then the from the jt to the battery with a diode on the collector side to the positive of the battery

on both circuits the positive of the batterys runs to a double swtching realy this will turn both outputs on at the same time this realy is part of a light and dark circuit with a separate power saurce the light sencer will be in the same place as the solar panels this turns on when it detects darkness

ok from the realy on the output will go to 2 to separate jt's with one led on each basicly a jt for each battery
the led is put in a tube with a photocell the light detection circuit is set to turn on when there is light detected
the realy of the light dectection circuit is wired to a analog clock and the battery

now cover the solar panels and senser the clocks should start ticking when they stop everything is ready
at midnight reset the clocks to midnight remove the cover from the solar panels and senser and the experement is set.

my idea is the sun will large the batterys when it goes dark the system will turn on
if the jt dose charge better than the standerd way then the clock should of been ticking for longer

ok i know that it is said that you need to discharge and recharge the jt charge battery oftern to get best results

this system has accounted for that if i am right and the jt charge idea is true then the clock should get closer and closer to the standerd charge clock and if it works better should pass the amount of hours it lasts

hope this makes sence i would try it but i havent got the money to test this

i feel the standerd charged bettery will always last longer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on December 21, 2010, 09:27:57 AM

Quote from: dasimpson on December 21, 2010, 09:05:27 AM
kb25 what is the voltage and ampage you get from one cell of your eb

Hi dasimpson, i get 0.8V and 0.1mA. How bout you? How big is your EB? ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on December 21, 2010, 09:33:38 AM

i dont have a garden to build one.
but i am hopeing this summer to get some planters for the back yard to test.
ok you may try wireing the cells in parallel. I think your problem is you dont have enogth ampage from your eb.
hopefully putting them in parallel should sort that.
my jt has 10 turns on the base and 20 for the collecter.
i find i can get it started on about 0.55volts and 6 mah but to do this i have a cap in parallel with the battery.

Quote from: kb24 on December 21, 2010, 09:27:57 AM
Hi dasimpson, i get 0.8V and 0.1mA. How bout you? How big is your EB? ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on December 21, 2010, 09:35:52 AM

but the one test i did do was a 6 inch peace of 12mm copper pipe and a 2 inch zinc screw and i got 0.5-0.8volt 2-3ma
i only managed 1 cell for a test in a plantpot

Quote from: kb24 on December 21, 2010, 09:27:57 AM
Hi dasimpson, i get 0.8V and 0.1mA. How bout you? How big is your EB? ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on December 21, 2010, 09:41:07 AM

i did something like this when my gf's grand kids come to stay but i cheated and just extended the wires on a solar garden light and put the panel outside but i managed to run 6 led's at full brightness from it for at least 8 hours.
so i made to units like it and got a 12 led ring light some pictures are a few pages back worked out better then expected

Quote from: freepow on December 21, 2010, 08:10:33 AM
@ All

I now have my 5 yo son's nightlight up and working for the last few days, all I have to do is switch the charge switch on and the red(LED) comes on to show it charging the supercap, then when it has reached the charge that I want it to in the supercap, then the green(LED) comes on, I then switch the charge switch off.

When night comes and we put our 5 yo son to bed, I switch his nightlight on, and it shines quite good for
1x LED, and it usually lasts all night till morning, then its quite dim in the morning.

I usually charge the supercap up to only about 1.3-1.5v ,that seems to light the LED all night for him.

I could charge it up to 2.5v or even 2.7 if I wanted to, but hey! it works fine as it is...

The box is a clear lid one at approx 60x65x40mm dimensions, the small solar cell is outside at 4.0v 80mA.

The current draw is very low for this 1x LED joulethief.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on December 21, 2010, 09:42:07 AM

Quote from: dasimpson on December 21, 2010, 09:35:52 AM
but the one test i did do was a 6 inch peace of 12mm copper pipe and a 2 inch zinc screw and i got 0.5-0.8volt 2-3ma
i only managed 1 cell for a test in a plantpot

oh my EB cell is only 2cm diameter and 10cm height for single cell. I try to make it portable. :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on December 21, 2010, 09:46:29 AM

Quote from: kb24 on December 21, 2010, 09:42:07 AM
oh my EB cell is only 2cm diameter and 10cm height for single cell. I try to make it portable. :D

let me convert the inches to mm i think were playing with about the same size cell or close enogth
close mine would be 1.2cm by 15cm with 6mm by 5cm screw
i found moveing the screw in and out would get differnt volts and amps so i just ajusted to get best of both
if i was going to have more then one cell then i would rap the tube in tape and put a bag in the hole to insulate it from the other cells otheriws they would short if wired in series
once the tube is packes with soil i can take them indors if i wont

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on December 21, 2010, 09:53:52 AM

Quote from: dasimpson on December 21, 2010, 09:46:29 AM

let me convert the inches to mm i think were playing with about the same size cell or close enogth
close mine would be 1.2cm by 15cm with 6mm by 5cm screw
i found moveing the screw in and out would get differnt volts and amps so i just ajusted to get best of both
if i was going to have more then one cell then i would rap the tube in tape and put a bag in the hole to insulate it from the other cells otheriws they would short if wired in series
once the tube is packes with soil i can take them indors if i wont

Wow, so u able to get 2mA is amazing.. Did u add any solution to it? Mine have higher voltage but low ampere

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on December 21, 2010, 09:59:24 AM

Quote from: kb24 on December 21, 2010, 09:53:52 AM
Wow, so u able to get 2mA is amazing.. Did u add any solution to it? Mine have higher voltage but low ampere

if you are doing it like me you are using pipe and basicly a rod in the middle basicly like a battery i found if you move the inner electrode in or out you could play with the output and comapred to some the the eb on this site 2ma is nothing i think highest is 35ma

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on December 21, 2010, 10:00:16 AM

Quote from: kb24 on December 21, 2010, 09:53:52 AM
Wow, so u able to get 2mA is amazing.. Did u add any solution to it? Mine have higher voltage but low ampere

no solution just wat was allready in the ground from rain etc

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on December 21, 2010, 10:05:12 AM

Quote from: dasimpson on December 21, 2010, 09:59:24 AM
if you are doing it like me you are using pipe and basicly a rod in the middle basicly like a battery i found if you move the inner electrode in or out you could play with the output and comapred to some the the eb on this site 2ma is nothing i think highest is 35ma

That's interesting. Currently i was using copper and zinc plate. Gonna try ur method later!! now working with fuji circuit :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on December 21, 2010, 10:06:58 AM

Quote from: kb24 on December 21, 2010, 10:05:12 AM
That's interesting. Currently i was using copper and zinc plate. Gonna try ur method later!! now working with fuji circuit :D

i havent played with the fuji circuit but from what i have seen and read they do give the best results

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on December 21, 2010, 10:08:27 AM

Quote from: kb24 on December 21, 2010, 10:05:12 AM
That's interesting. Currently i was using copper and zinc plate. Gonna try ur method later!! now working with fuji circuit :D

the plates can work well you can up the perfoamance by running them north and south forgot wich one goes were sure some one else will tell ya that

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: ltseung888 on December 21, 2010, 10:09:54 AM

Dear All,

I am ready to ship out the first Prototype A for vigorous testing in USA. Please see details in:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8825.msg267627#msg267627

I am posting in this thread because the circuit is essentially an enhanced Joule Thief with a secondary winding. The windings were adjusted so as to achieve overunity. The Instantaneous Output Power is shown to be higher than the Instantaneous Input Power. COP easily exceeded 1.

Many of you have spent much time and effort in the enhanced Joule Thief technology. Some refused to admit that they have achieved overunity. I am stating boldly that I have achieved that and am willing to send my prototypes for Public Verification.

I urge you do the same. If you are interested, post at the above thread. We can work together to benefit the World. Your hard work will not be ignored.

May the Almighty bring us to work together to benefit the World.

Lawrence Tseung
Director
Help Seedlings Innovate Foundation Limited (Hong Kong)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on December 21, 2010, 10:22:32 AM

Quote from: j037m on December 21, 2010, 01:31:56 AM
post the picture of your fuji circuit now bottom and top meaning the one that you have now and not the one you post before let me see what we can do on it the bottom (with the circuit) and the top (with the parts) also locate the pin of the transformer for me one side of it has 4 pins and the other has 2 pins looking from the bottom

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 21, 2010, 01:05:22 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on December 21, 2010, 09:59:24 AM
if you are doing it like me you are using pipe and basicly a rod in the middle basicly like a battery i found if you move the inner electrode in or out you could play with the output and comapred to some the the eb on this site 2ma is nothing i think highest is 35ma

I got 435 mA's 2 years ago out of mine...for just a little while. I added some vinegar to the soil and man...it really worked well...and then my coils shorted. I was using a Stubble single coil at the time.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on December 21, 2010, 02:26:28 PM

ok i mean with out any additives
what is the highest you get from a normal set up
435 wow thats alot
but can it be counted because it failed after a short time

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 21, 2010, 01:05:22 PM
I got 435 mA's 2 years ago out of mine...for just a little while. I added some vinegar to the soil and man...it really worked well...and then my coils shorted. I was using a Stubble single coil at the time.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: j037m on December 21, 2010, 04:15:06 PM

@kb
try this set up
;Djoey

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: j037m on December 21, 2010, 04:41:48 PM

Quote from: freepow on May 02, 2010, 03:04:23 AM
There is no transformer, only a 1.5" toroid x2 with around 120-140 turns on secondary, A used is a 2n3055 which I considor a good choice, and anyway I have lit a 4 watt 240v fluoro also a 5 watt cfl with components pulled out of it ! But they dony light any where as good a this 20x LED bulb, its very bright, I only need possibly 1 of these lights per room, I like the 20x LED bulb because I can just put it in my lamp and plug into my JT-power supply and be off the grid (lights only) at this stage !

My total volts on 2x AA which has around 2.5-3v , I get around 850-1050v, 3x AA = around 1100-1200v,
I will stick to 2x AA, maby add more more amps and then my light will last up to 2 weeks with more AA's
That means I only have to charge my box every 2 weeks !
Our electricity is going up 70% over next 1-3 years !!!
So best to light my house for free off the greedy grid!

bro freepow can i ask whats the wire you use on primary and secondary also is it two toroid connected together or not been trying to do same but no luck...
;Djoey

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on December 21, 2010, 05:42:06 PM

@ jo37m

I only used 2,8,125 turns I think, and the actuall volts are higher than I posted back then, on my scope it read around 1259 volts with 2xAA used ones, I am not going to use 2xAA's, I am going to use a 400F supercap that I recently bought.

This is the major project for our small house, I have a large hinged plastic box that I will have all my joulethiefs in and a small box on top with 2 analogue meters to read the solar panel, and each supercap will charge in 6 minutes and light will last around 2-3 hours, meaning turn them on at 7:00pm and turn off at
around 9:30-10:00pm and go to bed.
Thats my major project, light in each room, will post this project for all to see when finished.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: j037m on December 21, 2010, 05:58:44 PM

only a 1.5" toroid x2 <<< is this mean that you use two toroid combine also can i ask what size of wire bro on primary and secondary thanks for reply cant wait to make same like your project
;Djoey

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on December 21, 2010, 06:29:41 PM

@ j037m

I used solid hook up wire(insulated) for the primarys thicker than the secondary,
the secondary is about 0.6mm diameter I think, the 2 toroids are on top of each other and electrical tape wrapped around to keep them together.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: osiris on December 21, 2010, 07:02:46 PM

for the jt ers

i closed the loop and made a self runner

this is no joke

it uses an aa battery but i made a simple charger for it .. it uses 3 2n2222a's 1 as a jt other 2 are rf recharge can be run constant with any jt or can be placed on a switch ..

its hot s**t works great every time as per the design ...it charges super fast

here is a picture of the unit

osiris

it is a directional rf single loop transmiting antenna aimed to the input of the coil .. there is no pos connection on the rf recharge .. it must transmit rf via eather to make the connection ..
like i said works great everytime

i have confirmed it is rf doing the magic just as i have explained

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: j037m on December 21, 2010, 07:14:59 PM

Quote from: freepow on December 21, 2010, 06:29:41 PM
@ j037m

I used solid hook up wire(insulated) for the primarys thicker than the secondary,
the secondary is about 0.6mm diameter I think, the 2 toroids are on top of each other and electrical tape wrapped around to keep them together.

correct me if im wrong bro the toroids are electrical tape together before the winding of wire or you wind it first before you tape them together..
also is there any connected to the secondary other than the lights or the secondary directly connected to the lights?
;Djoey

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on December 21, 2010, 07:56:17 PM

@ osiris, Could you draw us a diagram ?

@ j037m, The 2x toroids together then wrap tape to keep them together, then put secondary and primarys on after that.
check picture...

Also 2x toroids together then wraped with primarys and secondary seems to double output of volts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on December 21, 2010, 08:10:07 PM

@ All, Does anyone think a small dc motor with a cd disc on the gear of motor with magnets around the cd disk, then put a large magnet near the others should turn the cd and motor for free ??????

What does anyone think ????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on December 21, 2010, 08:16:34 PM

Quote from: freepow on December 21, 2010, 08:10:07 PM
@ All, Does anyone think a small dc motor with a cd disc on the gear of motor with magnets around the cd disk, then put a large magnet near the others should turn the cd and motor for free ??? ???

What does anyone think ??? ?

lol if things were only that simple

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: osiris on December 21, 2010, 08:32:04 PM

this is how simple it is ..

be whitness to the worlds first selfrunning jt rf recharge unit !

merry christmas

osiris

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEYoF6mYMhI

i will soon make a small unit and post here

YAWN ... it seams to run my coil just fine ... :P

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on December 21, 2010, 08:34:25 PM

Quote from: osiris on December 21, 2010, 08:32:04 PM
this is how simple it is ..

be whitness to the worlds first selfrunning jt rf recharge unit !

merry christmas

osiris

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEYoF6mYMhI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEYoF6mYMhI)

sorry m8 just a voltage reading of the battery alone dosent mean it is been charged

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on December 21, 2010, 08:39:23 PM

i dont know if it is just me but somthing about thet video and the way he rights reminds me of ist plus the coil looks very similer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: j037m on December 21, 2010, 08:47:22 PM

Quote from: freepow on December 21, 2010, 08:10:07 PM
@ All, Does anyone think a small dc motor with a cd disc on the gear of motor with magnets around the cd disk, then put a large magnet near the others should turn the cd and motor for free ??????

What does anyone think ????

thanks for the reply bro so the one gives better voltage is the two toroid that has primary and secondary already before tape together or the two toroid thats been tape together then put primary and secondary ?
about the motor that has disc and magnet and giving volts to lights a led that one works bro but the problem is making the disc with magnet run the motor.. coz i made one already and by cranking the motor by hand it lights up the led 1.5 volts but the 2.5 volts led didnt lights up ..again the problem on that is making the disc run to give power to the motor and lights up an led...
;Djoey

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on December 21, 2010, 08:49:24 PM

dasimpson
that is..
sir william

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on December 21, 2010, 08:49:46 PM

Quote from: j037m on December 21, 2010, 08:47:22 PM
thanks for the reply bro so the one gives better voltage is the two toroid that has primary and secondary already before tape together or the two toroid thats been tape together then put primary and secondary ?
about the motor that has disc and magnet and giving volts to lights a led that one works bro but the problem is making the disc with magnet run the motor.. coz i made one already and by cranking the motor by hand it lights up the led 1.5 volts but the 2.5 volts led didnt lights up ..again the problem on that is making the disc run to give power to the motor and lights up an led...
;Djoey

the magnet will push the cd away but only till the next magnet come then stops the magnetic feilds will not allow it to pass

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on December 21, 2010, 08:50:44 PM

Quote from: kooler on December 21, 2010, 08:49:24 PM
dasimpson
that is..
sir william

should i know that name? just the ramblings and well the tools on the video reminded me so very much of ist

doh sir william is ist just did a search on the threads and noticed ist post end with william

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 21, 2010, 10:26:27 PM

@all

He kids , here is a great chance to learn something , FE video making 101 , if you make a video even without making any claims YOU MUST SHOW ALL WIRE AT ALL TIME ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on December 21, 2010, 11:34:48 PM

Quote from: j037m on December 21, 2010, 04:15:06 PM
@kb
try this set up
;Djoey

I have try with this set up, once i connect the jumper, my battery give out 'hiss' sound.. anyone know what the problem and why my battery will have this kind of sound?

I think probably because something wrong with my diode part. what i should do with tat part? should i remove the diode leg which i had cut or just leave it there?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on December 21, 2010, 11:48:16 PM

look and see...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRQ66GtA0wg

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: j037m on December 22, 2010, 03:10:11 AM

i do same like that one bro but making the motor run is hard so im looking on something else to make it run also try the computer fan motor that one also give power to led when you blow it ..

@ kb
the diode has no use anymore and if the battery make any sound it means theres something wrong on the circuit ..
can i see the finish set up so i can see what's wrong on it
;Djoey

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on December 22, 2010, 05:35:02 AM

@ Osiris, Hello from freepow, can you draw us a diagram of your

"G6 CLOSED LOOP RF RECHARGE LOW VOLT" that you say makes any joulethief a "self-runner" !

Thanks.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on December 22, 2010, 06:57:56 AM

Quote from: j037m on December 22, 2010, 03:10:11 AM
i do same like that one bro but making the motor run is hard so im looking on something else to make it run also try the computer fan motor that one also give power to led when you blow it ..

@ kb
the diode has no use anymore and if the battery make any sound it means theres something wrong on the circuit ..
can i see the finish set up so i can see what's wrong on it
;Djoey

the transistor and battery get really hot. In this photo, i havent connect from tube to resistor. I have done it but i still couldnt light up. The caps and battery get hot

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: osiris on December 22, 2010, 08:09:38 AM

sure i will show the unit i need to draw the thing on paper but i hooked it up to any jt it works ..

as per the design ..

and dasimpsion ... my tire aint flat is yours?

my battery shows 1.200 vdc this morn after running all night and powering 4 leds .. i un hook the leds boom it recharges super fast as demoed

it is closed looped

osiris

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: osiris on December 22, 2010, 08:12:44 AM

Quote from: freepow on December 21, 2010, 11:48:16 PM
look and see...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRQ66GtA0wg

that is captians video .. of course it works ..

8)

osiris

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on December 22, 2010, 09:30:05 AM

Quote from: osiris on December 22, 2010, 08:09:38 AM
sure i will show the unit i need to draw the thing on paper but i hooked it up to any jt it works ..

as per the design ..

and dasimpsion ... my tire aint flat is yours?

my battery shows 1.200 vdc this morn after running all night and powering 4 leds .. i un hook the leds boom it recharges super fast as demoed

it is closed looped

osiris

i have always said high voltages pulses do not charg a battery properly and i have an experament further up the page to test and prove this point

batterys i have charged with a jt befor have shown they are fully charged on a voltage reading but when something has been run from it the voltage has droped very fast and not droped slowly how a properly charged battery should

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on December 22, 2010, 09:34:16 AM

Quote from: osiris on December 22, 2010, 08:12:44 AM
that is captians video .. of course it works ..

8)

osiris

video is fake pulse motor coil under the table i have tried this and dose not work the wheel kogs on the next magnet

dont belive me try it for your self

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Omnibus on December 22, 2010, 11:37:50 AM

Quote from: osiris on December 22, 2010, 08:12:44 AM
that is captians video .. of course it works ..

8)

osiris

You can say "of course, it works" only after you've replicated it and have made sure other people can too. Until then it is: "of course, it doesn't work".

A comment under the vid reads: "Why do people feel the need to hoax?" That's the question, really.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 22, 2010, 12:11:01 PM

Quote from: Omnibus on December 22, 2010, 11:37:50 AM
You can say "of course, it works" only after you've replicated it and have made sure other people can too. Until then it is: "of course, it doesn't work".

A comment under the vid reads: "Why do people feel the need to hoax?" That's the question, really.

I agree 100%. I thought that video was settled on here long ago. I too would like to know why people feel the need to do this?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: zhak on December 22, 2010, 12:38:48 PM

Hi all, appreciate my new compact lamp JT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3BuXRon_wY
Some people already want to buy JT

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Omnibus on December 22, 2010, 01:13:24 PM

Quote from: zhak on December 22, 2010, 12:38:48 PM
Hi all, appreciate my new compact lamp JT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3BuXRon_wY
Some people already want to buy JT

What's the point? Why would anybody interested in OU want to buy it?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 22, 2010, 01:29:15 PM

Quote from: Omnibus on December 22, 2010, 01:13:24 PM
What's the point? Why would anybody interested in OU want to buy it?

Omni:

Maybe I can answer that one. Perhaps it is because you can't seem to buy one on the open market as of now. For example, I have had many requests to build JT powered led flashlights that operate on a single "dead" AA battery and run the leds brighter and longer than they do on the 4 AA's that come from the factory. I have already done this for free for a few friends. Why? Because you can't buy one. This puzzles me because if I were a design engineer for a flashlight company, I would make this and put it on the market. Why do they not do this?

It is not, of course, OU but still it is a leap ahead for what technology is commercially available. What are your thoughts on this?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Omnibus on December 22, 2010, 01:46:59 PM

@Pirate88179,

For those purposes, yes, I do agree. Moreover, I've always felt that a real OU research should be don on this JT. So far, I'm not aware of quality energy balance being measured on it. I'd be willing to do such measurements (probably in January because I've some other things to take care of at present) but, like you said, it cannot be purchased anywhere and I don't want to rediscover the wheel by making one myself.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on December 22, 2010, 02:35:19 PM

Why one does not find a Joule Thief circuit on the market:

My experiments with Joule Thief type circuits and CFLs (compact fluorescent lamp) showed, that when measured carefully, a brightly lit CFL used more energy with a Joule Thief than with a conventional circuit (the circuit which is present in CFLs bought at a store).

One can light a CFL with a Joule Thief with comparatively little energy, but then the light output is marginal. It looks good when filmed in a dark room, but the room stays very dim.

This is also true for LEDs. One has to measure the light output of the LEDs with a lux-meter in order to see how dimly they are lit with a Joule Thief in comparison to the situation when the specified amount of energy is put through them.

Still, the Joule Thief circuit is useful for LEDs in cases where one does not need very bright LEDs (which are too hard on the eyes), e.g. for a night lamp or an indicator light.

The commercially available LED flash lights put too much energy through the LEDs, one does not need such brightness in practice. Adding a Joule Thief (and using only one battery instead of four) reduces the brightness (which is then still good enough) and of course the power consumption.

The Joule Thief is interesting and educational, but I did not see any over unity. A person who thinks that his Joule Thief is over unity should by a lux meter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lux http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=46557 .

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on December 22, 2010, 03:31:35 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 22, 2010, 01:29:15 PM
Omni:

Maybe I can answer that one. Perhaps it is because you can't seem to buy one on the open market as of now. For example, I have had many requests to build JT powered led flashlights that operate on a single "dead" AA battery and run the leds brighter and longer than they do on the 4 AA's that come from the factory. I have already done this for free for a few friends. Why? Because you can't buy one. This puzzles me because if I were a design engineer for a flashlight company, I would make this and put it on the market. Why do they not do this?

It is not, of course, OU but still it is a leap ahead for what technology is commercially available. What are your thoughts on this?

Bill

Hi Bill, and Happy Xmas to you. There are LED flashlights available of course using JT circuits to drive several LED's the difference being that they are optimised to provide maximum performance around their source voltages...
1.5 volt upwards, much below and they begin to fail. The batteries are disposed of and replacements are purchased!! Now the thing is_ any attempt to squeeze any more power out of these "exhausted" cells will affect sales Bill tut... tut. Hm mm... so lets think about this!! need to configure the circuit in such away that it can be tuned into resonance below 1.5volts or whatever makes up the supply source voltage. As usual any improvements will come at a price of course, and one has to convince the buyers that Torch "A" lights a lot longer than Torch"B" but costs more to purchase. The only other saving grace of course is the WIND UP flashlight which incorporates several technologies... a generator, LED's, and super cap's. We all new that a DC model motor produced a DC voltage by turning it's shaft. It took Trevor Bayliss to develop the idea further, Oh well never mind. May be there is a bright... get it! bright future for the JT circuit yet. Sorry to go on a bit here, you made a good point Bill. Merv

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Omnibus on December 22, 2010, 03:42:17 PM

@Pirate88179,

If you think there's a market for it why don't you take up on it? In this way you'll be able to finance your more important projects in the OU field. It's true that the battery producers won't like it, as our friend says, but so what. There are always secondary markets, there's internet. This is a nifty little gadget many would go for. What do you think?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: osiris on December 22, 2010, 03:52:51 PM

i gonna tell ya right the hell now captian is no fool !

if it dont work for you i guess it aint suspoto work for ya eh!

why does it spin ? i know but i aint gonna tell ya

so drop it !

osiris

i drew up a new toy for the slow boys to play with !

lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Omnibus on December 22, 2010, 03:55:02 PM

Quote from: osiris on December 22, 2010, 03:52:51 PM
i gonna tell ya right the hell now captian is no fool !

if it dont work for you i guess it aint suspoto work for ya eh!

why does it spin ? i know but i aint gonna tell ya

so drop it !

osiris

One thing is for sure, however. The device shown is not an overunity device. So much for that.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: osiris on December 22, 2010, 04:05:00 PM

here ya go

closed loop demo RF recharge

osiris

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bK9U9IclzaY

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Omnibus on December 22, 2010, 04:28:59 PM

Quote from: osiris on December 22, 2010, 04:05:00 PM
here ya go

closed loop demo RF recharge

osiris

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bK9U9IclzaY

Smane reply here -- you're using an antenna to pick up externalsignal,right? That's not what an OU device would do neither is that a self-sustaining device.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: osiris on December 22, 2010, 04:34:52 PM

Quote from: Omnibus on December 22, 2010, 04:28:59 PM
Smane reply here -- you're using an antenna to pick up externalsignal,right? That's not what an OU device would do neither is that a self-sustaining device.

ok horse fly .. carefull ill pull your wings off!

do you own my toy ..? the ANSWER IS NO YOU BOY DO NOT .. I DO .. AND

my tire aint flat is yours ?

lol

osiris

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Omnibus on December 22, 2010, 04:42:22 PM

The antenna precludes any discussion of that device as being OU. Thus, there's nothing interesting about it to deserve any further pushing it in this forum.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: osiris on December 22, 2010, 04:46:50 PM

Quote from: Omnibus on December 22, 2010, 04:42:22 PM
The antenna precludes any discussion of that device as being OU. Thus, there's nothing interesting about it to deserve any further pushing it in this forum.

your a joke ! fly away horse fly ... o right now you got no wings .. guess your walking ..

too bad that is the best degradeing argument you can produce .. this troll aint even a chalange ..

you got to be able to do better than that

boy!

lol

osiris

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Omnibus on December 22, 2010, 04:51:45 PM

Quote from: osiris on December 22, 2010, 04:46:50 PM
your a joke ! fly away horse fly ... o right now you got no wings .. guess your walking ..

too bad that is the best degradeing argument you can produce .. this troll aint even a chalange ..

you got to be able to do better than that

boy!

lol

osiris

You'd better own up to what you promise. What you're showing is not an overunity device let alone a self-sustaining one. It is tapping into an external RF signal, stealing external energy that way. Don't push this device any further in this forum, devoted to overunity.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: osiris on December 22, 2010, 05:03:39 PM

Quote from: Omnibus on December 22, 2010, 04:51:45 PM
You'd better own up to what you promise. What you're showing is not an overunity device let alone a self-sustaining one. It is tapping into an external RF signal, stealing external energy that way. Don't push this device any further in this forum, devoted to overunity.

your pushing plain BULL SHIT .. yes torrous shit @ a tortus pace ..

:P

i have a BUILT IN RF TRANSMITTER BROADCASTING VIA LOOP ANT! CANT YA SEE IT ?

osiris

what the hell is teslas air blast gap any ways ..

yawn ...

ill take it right back to stones man your wizest choise it to walk away !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Omnibus on December 22, 2010, 05:06:45 PM

Quote from: osiris on December 22, 2010, 05:03:39 PM
your pushing plain BULL SHIT .. yes torrous shit @ a tortus pace ..

:P

i have a BUILT IN RF TRANSMITTER BROADCASTING VIA LOOP ANT! CANT YA SEE IT ?

osiris

Sorry if that's the case. So, you have an RF transmitter as part of the system, right? That transmitter plays therole of some sort of a converter, very efficient at that.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Omnibus on December 22, 2010, 05:15:15 PM

You have to blame yourself for this not coming across. People are naturally skeptical and need a clearer presentation. What is it that you're actually showing here?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: osiris on December 22, 2010, 05:18:03 PM

Quote from: Omnibus on December 22, 2010, 05:15:15 PM
You have to blame yourself for this not coming across. People are naturally skeptical and need a clearer presentation. What is it that you're actually showing here?

it is clearly marked and well drawen ... im sorry you missed the term rf transmitter .. it is there as are the antennas

osiris

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Omnibus on December 22, 2010, 05:21:19 PM

Well, I did miss that, I admit. It's very interesting. Could you please place it in a Faraday cage and see what happens.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: osiris on December 22, 2010, 05:34:58 PM

ps sorry for being an ass but sometimes ONE must !

osiris

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on December 22, 2010, 07:48:50 PM

Quote from: j037m on December 22, 2010, 03:10:11 AM
@ kb
the diode has no use anymore and if the battery make any sound it means theres something wrong on the circuit ..
can i see the finish set up so i can see what's wrong on it
;Djoey

the capacitor and battery get really hot when i get it connected ???

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on December 22, 2010, 09:18:58 PM

osiris or should i say sir william (ist).
i dont know why you have been allowed back here you are nothing but a fool.
you can not back up your claims or prove them when asked to do so you just rip into ppl you.
you drove alot of ppl away from here and on that note i will be blocking you so i dont have to listern to any more of your childish attitude and ideas that you will never share if they ethern work

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 22, 2010, 09:43:08 PM

This time @ist or @osiris provided a schematic for the first time.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: osiris on December 23, 2010, 02:30:52 AM

here is the closed loop flash light hard boarded video

thank you jesus for the labeling

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6Xi89cx4W4

osiris

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on December 23, 2010, 03:16:59 AM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on December 22, 2010, 09:43:08 PM
This time @ist or @osiris provided a schematic for the first time.

Osirus

If I understand the circuit ..... wouldn't it work as good to use 1 larger transistor rather than the 2 transistors connected together?

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on December 23, 2010, 03:59:01 AM

@osiris,

Could you also make a simple drawing of where you connect you LEDs?
Also, a drawing of your "RF recharge transmitter" and bridge?

Thanks,
Groundloop.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on December 23, 2010, 07:01:50 AM

@ OSIRIS !

Hello from freepow, I looked at your youtube video, looks great, however I can only see the multimeter connected to the AA battery, I dont see any + or - wires coming from the AA battery to the circuit, can
you please show me where the AA battery is connected to the circuit please, sorry if I sound Pessimistic!

great video...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: osiris on December 23, 2010, 10:20:17 AM

Quote from: resonanceman on December 23, 2010, 03:16:59 AM
Osirus

If I understand the circuit ..... wouldn't it work as good to use 1 larger transistor rather than the 2 transistors connected together?

gary

yes it would work .. most likely better .. i did not do that yet .. i do find it to cost less engery useing 3 transistors than useing 1 single one ;)

osiris

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: osiris on December 23, 2010, 10:25:18 AM

Quote from: Groundloop on December 23, 2010, 03:59:01 AM
@osiris,

Could you also make a simple drawing of where you connect you LEDs?
Also, a drawing of your "RF recharge transmitter" and bridge?

Thanks,
Groundloop.

gl the drawing looks correct
the bridge is on an aux output coil the leds are connected after the bridge i threw in a super cap on the bridge b4 the leds ..

for the recharge transmitter antennas i used a plasma spark gap from a rf amp .. you can use anything .. as long as there identical ***
the spark gap works well the distance between the antennas makes a diff !

osiris

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: osiris on December 23, 2010, 10:28:30 AM

Quote from: freepow on December 23, 2010, 07:01:50 AM
@ OSIRIS !

Hello from freepow, I looked at your youtube video, looks great, however I can only see the multimeter connected to the AA battery, I dont see any + or - wires coming from the AA battery to the circuit, can
you please show me where the AA battery is connected to the circuit please, sorry if I sound Pessimistic!

great video...

hello freepow

the battery is connected as any old jt .. the recharge runs in the pos supply wire through air blast gap

osiris

ok guys i dont want to tie up too much of this thred i just wanted to show you my latest toy .. and get a few of you playing with it and improving it for the FLASHLIGHTS.. i may snach a few more of you
;)

i always come home for christmas !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: osiris on December 23, 2010, 04:31:25 PM

1 more cryptic riddle 4 yas ... :D

closed loop no battery rf feedback electrical amp ! wireless supply ...

yawn ..

osiris

shits real big deal ... yawn

dw? ;) whoa is me see told ya see my work is to be sooo dope ..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71S9ou2gcqE

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on December 23, 2010, 05:58:19 PM

Hello IST

it has been a while ;D

Your circuit seems to be pretty interesting and I hope people are able to replicate.

Anyways keep up the good work.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: osiris on December 23, 2010, 07:11:20 PM

Quote from: stprue on December 23, 2010, 05:58:19 PM
Hello IST

it has been a while ;D

Your circuit seems to be pretty interesting and I hope people are able to replicate.

Anyways keep up the good work.

hey bro 8)

dont mine me i got the dragon chaseing its tale ... then pissing fire .. ;)

lol

osiris

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: aaron5120 on December 24, 2010, 03:56:11 AM

Quote from: osiris on December 23, 2010, 04:31:25 PM
1 more cryptic riddle 4 yas ... :D

closed loop no battery rf feedback electrical amp ! wireless supply ...

yawn ..

osiris

shits real big deal ... yawn

dw? ;) whoa is me see told ya see my work is to be sooo dope ..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71S9ou2gcqE

Hi Osiris,
I have tried replicating your interesting circuit with the RF recharge variation. But the battery did not get recharged.
I used 3 TIP3055 in place of 2N2222A.
The JT coil was wound wound with a pickup which drive LED loads.
Everything else was the same as your specification.
The GDT( gas discharge tube)was a 250V 2 pole.
So Osiris, do you mind give me the spec of your GDT or spark plug firing voltage, because I think the 250V firing voltage is too high for my circuit.
The JT I build did give 170V AC out. But consumes quite some currents for lighting up 25 leds.
The battery voltage kept decreasing, no matter how I adjust the 1K pot.
It did climbs at some moment when I adjust it, but never kept recharging the battery, it just consumed less.
aaron5120

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on December 24, 2010, 03:57:31 AM

@osaris,
So what is the super cap / memory cap doing under your thumb, other than power the circuit!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on December 24, 2010, 06:19:44 AM

Quote from: crowclaw on December 24, 2010, 03:57:31 AM
@osaris,
So what is the super cap / memory cap doing under your thumb, other than power the circuit!!

some one elso noticed that also

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: osiris on December 24, 2010, 08:22:46 AM

THAT IS WHERE I PLUG IN THE LEDS TO DEMO THE RECIEVED ENERGY !!
you need a cap to collect it and that cap must have some energy in it ... or you do not allow yourself access to the free rf

this will not make sence till i release my last video .. i demo how it operates in that video

this is not 100 % finished !! it wouldnt be me .. if i finished it all then just gave it to you all ..

im sorry some small amount of brain work is still required on your part ! for YOU TO MAKE IT WORK .. :)

osiris

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: osiris on December 24, 2010, 08:32:42 AM

Quote from: aaron5120 on December 24, 2010, 03:56:11 AM
Hi Osiris,
I have tried replicating your interesting circuit with the RF recharge variation. But the battery did not get recharged.
I used 3 TIP3055 in place of 2N2222A.
The JT coil was wound wound with a pickup which drive LED loads.
Everything else was the same as your specification.
The GDT( gas discharge tube)was a 250V 2 pole.
So Osiris, do you mind give me the spec of your GDT or spark plug firing voltage, because I think the 250V firing voltage is too high for my circuit.
The JT I build did give 170V AC out. But consumes quite some currents for lighting up 25 leds.
The battery voltage kept decreasing, no matter how I adjust the 1K pot.
It did climbs at some moment when I adjust it, but never kept recharging the battery, it just consumed less.
aaron5120

ok

well the tip's use more power than 2n222a's but yes the gas tube may not work as well try just copper wire as an antenna the freq it important you must find the spot where charge jumps

this does work as i presented it ! i made hours of videos .. it performed the same each time !

even with out the cap

my last post is regarding no soruce required received rf start up energy to power the device .. and i almost have it all worked out i need to get more free rf to charge it to operate without batteries or i must KICK START IT OR PRE CHARGE THE CAPS ..

ONCE CAPS ARE FULL IT WILL OPERATE CLOSED LOOP !

OSIRIS

nice build :) ps what is the blue thing ? not a diode .. if it is take it out!

i used only 1 bridge . and it is on the idependent output winding .. I DO NOT TAP JT BACKSIDE ! i tap the toroide out winding

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 24, 2010, 09:09:28 AM

@aaron5120

Please try taking out the gds and the neon bulb and try a blown LED in its place as an antenna.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: osiris on December 24, 2010, 09:38:15 AM

here is the last vid !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zpr86moArIg

tell me why the cap refills after i extract power from it ... the leds will drain right out till they no longer lite .. but there is still power in the cap .. and it will refill! and i can repete it for a long time itermitently useing power via led ..
GOAL: to power jt pump to fill supply cap to power device ..
once supply cap is full device operates as first presented !

osiris

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on December 24, 2010, 10:34:41 AM

Quote from: osiris on December 24, 2010, 09:38:15 AM
here is the last vid !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zpr86moArIg

tell me why the cap refills after i extract power from it ... the leds will drain right out till they no longer lite .. but there is still power in the cap .. and it will refill! and i can repete it for a long time itermitently useing power via led ..
GOAL: to power jt pump to fill supply cap to power device ..
once supply cap is full device operates as first presented !

osiris

It is not an unusual occurrence... most capacitors will "appear to recover" a measurable charge after being discharged. What you need to demonstrate here is how long your capacitor can power the LED's for _ compared to the time it takes to recover sufficient charge and energy for the process to continually repeat itself without interuption!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: osiris on December 24, 2010, 10:50:28 AM

Quote from: crowclaw on December 24, 2010, 10:34:41 AM
It is not an unusual occurrence... most capacitors will "appear to recover" a measurable charge after being discharged. What you need to demonstrate here is how long your capacitor can power the LED's for _ compared to the time it takes to recover sufficient charge and energy for the process to continually repeat itself without interuption!!

humm is that right .. ?
i simply need to take as i have showen in the video .. and fill a supercap with a jt insted of burning the leds ..

simple eh!

think ya can do it ?

i have

regards
osiris

it is ovious that if it powers 4 leds .. it will run almost any joule thief what ya think ? i said i can DRAIN OUT THE CAP VIA LEDS AND IT REFILLS ITS SELF THEN I CAN REPETE ok

so what if it takes 24 hours to gather enough free energy to fill the cap the first time ! so what .. after it is full the rest is free

get it ? now if you want me to be a smart ass ... i can

throw a solar on it to fill it the first time .. now it is really fast ! and cheep

;D 8) :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on December 25, 2010, 01:22:41 AM

Please help me check whether i label the transformer pin correctly.. I couldnt get my fuji work, so i remove all component out and connect using wires. But i try the pin transformer according to josepino diagram but couldnt get it right. Please help. Thanks!!

btw, Merry Christmas everyone. Have a nice day!! ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 25, 2010, 03:37:11 PM

@kb24

Now some transformers come with the windings different.
Where suppose to be a 1 there is another number.

You have to check continuity and sketch a schematic of the transformer you are using. Maybe you have to take out one from another fuji and learn from it by measuring.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 25, 2010, 10:48:55 PM

Merry Christmas everyone.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: aaron5120 on December 25, 2010, 11:51:47 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on December 24, 2010, 09:09:28 AM
@aaron5120

Please try taking out the gds and the neon bulb and try a blown LED in its place as an antenna.

Jesus

Hi Jesus,
I did what you suggested. I blew a led purposely for this experiment, and then connect it to the circuit. See the attached photos. No improvement. The load( a big LED) kept drawing down the battery. I tried with cap paralleled or seried with the blown led antenna, and nothing improved.
Any ideas besides everybody to help this to work out?
Thanks and happy holidays!
aaron5120

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: DimaWari on December 26, 2010, 12:39:07 AM

Kindly check your toroid windings polarities and its better to use germanium transistor i guess.. I hope this will help you

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on December 26, 2010, 09:21:40 AM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on December 25, 2010, 03:37:11 PM
@kb24

Now some transformers come with the windings different.
Where suppose to be a 1 there is another number.

You have to check continuity and sketch a schematic of the transformer you are using. Maybe you have to take out one from another fuji and learn from it by measuring.

Jesus

i have go to other town to search for different or older fuji camera but couldnt find any.. can anyone tell me which wire should connect to which part? coz the middle wire between primary is confusing

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on December 26, 2010, 10:20:45 AM

kb 25 you connected this wrong
it should of been connected to the resistor to the side of it

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on December 26, 2010, 10:38:11 AM

Quote from: dasimpson on December 26, 2010, 10:20:45 AM
kb 25 you connected this wrong
it should of been connected to the resistor to the side of it

too bad, i have disassemble all component from the circuit already.. so trying to connect all by using wire.

i try to connect my component according to diagram from josepino but i mess up with transformer pin.. i try compare my circuit with josepino diagram i notice a different in it.. any idea on which component should be connect to which transformer pin?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on December 26, 2010, 10:53:14 AM

Quote from: kb24 on December 26, 2010, 10:38:11 AM
too bad, i have disassemble all component from the circuit already.. so trying to connect all by using wire.

i try to connect my component according to diagram from josepino but i mess up with transformer pin.. i try compare my circuit with josepino diagram i notice a different in it.. any idea on which component should be connect to which transformer pin?

if you still have everything just put them back on like the photos and test if i had the same unit i could help you more

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 26, 2010, 01:25:24 PM

The Josepino site is for an AA bat. You have a AAA board which is totally different. Please do not confuse these 2 boards.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: j037m on December 26, 2010, 05:43:05 PM

kb the one on josepino has 4 pins on the other side and 2 on the other side of the transformer the one you show has 3 on both side if the circuit didnt give you any good result maybe one of the parts is not working good or the way i see it you have different transformer my suggestion is before you open the new fuji circuit you will buy try to disect that old circuit like what i do and look if any of those is been not working good also look on the transformer if you really have 3 and 3 pins on it..
dont worry you can make it theres a lot of person here that can help you ..
;Djoey

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on December 26, 2010, 07:17:18 PM

Quote from: kb24 on December 26, 2010, 10:38:11 AM
too bad, i have disassemble all component from the circuit already.. so trying to connect all by using wire.

i try to connect my component according to diagram from josepino but i mess up with transformer pin.. i try compare my circuit with josepino diagram i notice a different in it.. any idea on which component should be connect to which transformer pin?

the bottom 3 pins is the middle one to the left one the same resistance reading to the middle and the right if so if you use the left and right pin for the reading is it double the single reading
if so i would use that for the joule thief side also make sure that they is no reading to the top 2 pins

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on December 26, 2010, 07:19:26 PM

infact i think an image with all the ristance readings on might help us help you make use of that transfomer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 26, 2010, 07:55:42 PM

Quote from: aaron5120 on December 25, 2010, 11:51:47 PM

Hi Jesus,
I did what you suggested. I blew a led purposely for this experiment, and then connect it to the circuit. See the attached photos. No improvement. The load( a big LED) kept drawing down the battery. I tried with cap paralleled or seried with the blown led antenna, and nothing improved.
Any ideas besides everybody to help this to work out?
Thanks and happy holidays!
aaron5120

I have not been able to make it work either.
Only God knows what is happening.

But there is a circuit from @slayer that deals with wireless stuff. It can be used to charge the battery with its energy radiation.

I am lost now.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on December 26, 2010, 07:57:31 PM

it wont work just another scam

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on December 27, 2010, 09:52:47 AM

Quote from: j037m on December 26, 2010, 05:43:05 PM
kb the one on josepino has 4 pins on the other side and 2 on the other side of the transformer the one you show has 3 on both side if the circuit didnt give you any good result maybe one of the parts is not working good or the way i see it you have different transformer my suggestion is before you open the new fuji circuit you will buy try to disect that old circuit like what i do and look if any of those is been not working good also look on the transformer if you really have 3 and 3 pins on it..
dont worry you can make it theres a lot of person here that can help you ..
;Djoey

Thanks everyone for helping me out here.. now i kinda lost and stuck... not sure where to continue.. any idea? btw, i think if i put back my component back to circuit will work coz i kinda destroyed the circuit board.. haha..

Quote from: dasimpson on December 26, 2010, 07:17:18 PM

the bottom 3 pins is the middle one to the left one the same resistance reading to the middle and the right if so if you use the left and right pin for the reading is it double the single reading
if so i would use that for the joule thief side also make sure that they is no reading to the top 2 pins

sorry, i didnt understand.. would u mind to explain in more detail? i really interested on knowing more on this information

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on December 27, 2010, 11:00:16 AM

Quote from: kb24 on December 27, 2010, 09:52:47 AM
Thanks everyone for helping me out here.. now i kinda lost and stuck... not sure where to continue.. any idea? btw, i think if i put back my component back to circuit will work coz i kinda destroyed the circuit board.. haha..

sorry, i didnt understand.. would u mind to explain in more detail? i really interested on knowing more on this information

if you mesured the resistance between all the pins and post an image with the number i might be able to help futher i doubt you will get a tube to light now but you might get a a string of leds to light

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 27, 2010, 07:19:25 PM

@aaron5120

Maybe you should post your Osiris experiment in his tread , you might get more help there , then over here ...

He seems to ignore the joule thief tread from time to time .

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10085.msg268465#new

Mk

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on December 29, 2010, 12:30:53 AM

Quote from: dasimpson on December 27, 2010, 11:00:16 AM

if you mesured the resistance between all the pins and post an image with the number i might be able to help futher i doubt you will get a tube to light now but you might get a a string of leds to light

dasimpson, sorry to ask this but how am i suppose to check the resistance of the transformer pin? do i have to put the transformer back to circuit and put in battery? or i just take the multimeter measure transformer pin without connect transformer to circuit?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 29, 2010, 01:19:44 AM

@kb24

By using the multimeter set to resistance , that will help you map the transformer , and see witch ends are connected together , and the resistance value will help determine the coil length .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on December 29, 2010, 07:25:22 AM

Quote from: kb24 on December 29, 2010, 12:30:53 AM
dasimpson, sorry to ask this but how am i suppose to check the resistance of the transformer pin? do i have to put the transformer back to circuit and put in battery? or i just take the multimeter measure transformer pin without connect transformer to circuit?

exactly as the mk1 said above lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: osiris on December 29, 2010, 09:07:26 AM

here is a picture of 2 loa's 3.5 watt lights total 7watts of light from 1 aa battery

yawn ..

osiris

damm bright eh! 8)

run time is about 4 hours powering 2 3.5 watt lights .. from the cheepest aa batteries i could find! 1.5vdc
there is no recharge employed

from 1 aa it will run 7.5 hours FULL BRIGHTNESS! 1 lite

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on December 29, 2010, 09:10:44 AM

Quote from: osiris on December 29, 2010, 09:07:26 AM
here is a picture of 2 loa's 3.5 watt lights total 7watts of light from 1 aa battery

yawn ..

osiris

damm bright eh! 8)

this is the first thing i seen you post that warrents forther investigation

is this the same unit from the past few pages ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on December 29, 2010, 09:17:22 AM

Quote from: osiris on December 29, 2010, 09:07:26 AM
here is a picture of 2 loa's 3.5 watt lights total 7watts of light from 1 aa battery

yawn ..

osiris

damm bright eh! 8)

run time is about 4 hours powering 2 3.5 watt lights .. from the cheepest aa batteries i could find! 1.5vdc
there is no recharge employed

from 1 aa it will run 7.5 hours FULL BRIGHTNESS! 1 lite

on this unit he powers the leds from a pickup coil on the toriode

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on December 29, 2010, 09:20:15 AM

Quote from: osiris on December 29, 2010, 09:07:26 AM
here is a picture of 2 loa's 3.5 watt lights total 7watts of light from 1 aa battery

yawn ..

osiris

damm bright eh! 8)

run time is about 4 hours powering 2 3.5 watt lights .. from the cheepest aa batteries i could find! 1.5vdc
there is no recharge employed

from 1 aa it will run 7.5 hours FULL BRIGHTNESS! 1 lite

on this one i noticed you have adderd 2 extrad transistors to the circuit and then made a double of the circuit i sume one for each light
were are the 2 extra transistor put in relation to your prevuise circuit you shared with us

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: osiris on December 29, 2010, 09:21:27 AM

your wrong

that is not employed in this unit !
im giveing FREE LIGHT NOT PERPETUAL LIGHT !

and that is my work yes! i have no problem to build it
but it aint about what i can and have done .. its about what have you done ?!

osiris

for the love of god ! THERE IS NO RF FEED BACK SHOWEN IN MY LAST LIGHT !

get your voltage and increase the amprage ! easy shit eh! :D

duhsimpison

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on December 29, 2010, 09:25:29 AM

Quote from: osiris on December 29, 2010, 09:21:27 AM
your wrong

that is not employed in this unit !
im giveing FREE LIGHT NOT PERPETUAL LIGHT !

and that is my work yes! i have no problem to build it
but it aint about what i can and have done .. its about what have you done ?!

osiris

ah right ok so this is a hole new direction from the last one
as for what i have done i am i guess what you would call a noob i havent done a greate deal i would love to do more but money is my problem hence i am stil working with small scale things

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on December 29, 2010, 09:27:11 AM

Quote from: osiris on December 29, 2010, 09:21:27 AM
your wrong

that is not employed in this unit !
im giveing FREE LIGHT NOT PERPETUAL LIGHT !

and that is my work yes! i have no problem to build it
but it aint about what i can and have done .. its about what have you done ?!

osiris

for the love of god ! THERE IS NO RF FEED BACK SHOWEN IN MY LAST LIGHT !

get your voltage and increase the amprage ! easy shit eh! :D

duhsimpison

if it was easy shit dont you think everyone be doing it
and as i say and prove you have to take the mick out of some who wonts to know more just cos he hasent matched you or suppased you

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: osiris on December 29, 2010, 09:29:47 AM

it is easy ... only because i made it easy ...

regards !

osiris

well i have about 5 bucks invested in what you see not including the bulbs or sockets ..
you can build all i have showen for cents !

i used the goldmine 5 4 a buck cores so anybody can make it ..

o diodes it will not hurt you should you touch the output wires o right NO CAPS IN THIS UNIT

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on December 29, 2010, 09:35:08 AM

Quote from: osiris on December 29, 2010, 09:29:47 AM
it is easy ... only because i made it easy ...

regards !

osiris

well i have about 5 bucks invested in what you see not including the bulbs or sockets ..
you can build all i have showen for cents !

i used the goldmine 5 4 a buck cores so anybody can make it ..

o diodes it will not hurt you should you touch the output wires o right NO CAPS IN THIS UNIT

ok so if i get this right you parallel the units for more ampage?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: osiris on December 29, 2010, 09:42:41 AM

1 ring powers 1 light full bright
thats why you see 2 rings because 2 lites

i can power 2 rings from 1 source .. or as many as i desire ..

regards

osiris

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on December 29, 2010, 09:45:06 AM

Quote from: osiris on December 29, 2010, 09:42:41 AM
1 ring powers 1 light full bright
thats why you see 2 rings because 2 lites

i can power 2 rings from 1 source .. or as many as i desire ..

regards

osiris

ok so is there more transistors to seperate the load.
or dose each transistor have it one winding on the coil unit

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: osiris on December 29, 2010, 09:47:55 AM

Quote from: dasimpson on December 29, 2010, 09:45:06 AM
ok so is there more transistors to seperate the load.
or dose each transistor have it one winding on the coil unit

this is the last time im replying to you

ok

5 transistors per coil ..
3 freqing wires thats it ! total / ring :o

ok

IS

THE SHOCKING ALI COIL ;D :o

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on December 29, 2010, 10:52:02 AM

Quote from: osiris on December 29, 2010, 09:47:55 AM
this is the last time im replying to you

ok

5 transistors per coil ..
3 freqing wires thats it ! total / ring :o

ok

IS

THE SHOCKING ALI COIL ;D :o

ty this nw makes complete sence
well the winding section of it anway looks like im going to have bad hand again another reasion i dont wind many coils

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on December 29, 2010, 10:52:43 AM

kb24 i found this and hope it helps

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on December 29, 2010, 12:29:41 PM

Hello All,

I am very happy to see everyone still working on this neat little circuit. Hope everyone had a marry Christmas!

Take Care,

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 29, 2010, 03:04:06 PM

IST is still standing tall on the shoulders of Big Clive, MK1, Jeanna, Gadget and all of the rest of us. I am not saying he is not showing anything new here, maybe he is but, he still fails to recognize who's work it is based upon.

Happy New Year everyone.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on December 29, 2010, 03:07:17 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 29, 2010, 03:04:06 PM
IST is still standing tall on the shoulders of Big Clive, MK1, Jeanna, Gadget and all of the rest of us. I am not saying he is not showing anything new here, maybe he is but, he still fails to recognize who's work it is based upon.

Happy New Year everyone.

Bill

yes that is a very good point bill i got to admit if they is a long way of doing somthing ist will find it
but i got to admit that thats as much light as iv seen from any of the units made

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: shylo on December 29, 2010, 06:58:59 PM

IST you obviously have a fair bit of knowledge, why can't you just share it openingly.........how do you like that for a word,.........shylo

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 30, 2010, 02:04:50 AM

I have to post it here , sorry LS . You guys got to see this !

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10179.msg268864#new

Great work again Lasersaber !

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on December 30, 2010, 02:41:56 AM

Quote from: dasimpson on December 29, 2010, 10:52:43 AM
kb24 i found this and hope it helps

thanks dasimpson.. i compare my transformer with the diagram u provide, it seem transformer was almost same wif mine, with 6turn on primary. Perhaps i can get the same diode through ordering it, but for transistor, i couldnt find it. Is there any other transistor that possibly replace it?

for checking transformer resistance, i not sure i have done it right or not.. lol.. here is what i get.. i set the multimeter to 2k ohm.. if i have done this wrongly, please teach me.. thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 30, 2010, 03:16:54 AM

@kb24

On the picture of the coil i see 5 wire , yet you got the resistance at only 2 locations , connect one lead of the meter to one wire then check all the others wire with the other ends of the meter repeat starting from another wire , there should be at least 3 coils , so 3 resistance value , if you don't have a resistance value it usually means that both ends are not connected together , So you need to find the 3 connection that gives you resistance , also remember that one leg of the transformer can be used by 2 coil or more .

Try again !

Good luck .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on December 30, 2010, 08:49:14 AM

Quote from: kb24 on December 30, 2010, 02:41:56 AM
thanks dasimpson.. i compare my transformer with the diagram u provide, it seem transformer was almost same wif mine, with 6turn on primary. Perhaps i can get the same diode through ordering it, but for transistor, i couldnt find it. Is there any other transistor that possibly replace it?

for checking transformer resistance, i not sure i have done it right or not.. lol.. here is what i get.. i set the multimeter to 2k ohm.. if i have done this wrongly, please teach me.. thanks

for the transistor i am not sure i guess try ebay i just used what i have ok they may not be upto the job but it is someware to start as for the pin checking mk1 beat me again lol if it matches that diagram dont think you have much need to test but if you get 0. in fron of any reading normaly means you ned to drop down a setting if you get 1. means you need to move up a setting

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: j037m on December 30, 2010, 06:07:50 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on December 30, 2010, 08:49:14 AM

for the transistor i am not sure i guess try ebay i just used what i have ok they may not be upto the job but it is someware to start as for the pin checking mk1 beat me again lol if it matches that diagram dont think you have much need to test but if you get 0. in fron of any reading normaly means you ned to drop down a setting if you get 1. means you need to move up a setting

are the fuji circuit and kodak funsaver are the same coz i think the one that kb has is a fuji transformer and the one bro dasimpson has shown is kodak transformer.. also bro kb you said you already remove the fuji transformer on the circuit board can you check if it really has a 5 pins on it coz i just buy new fuji circuit and it has same 6 pins on it when i removed it i bought it on 7 eleven store .. one of the 6 pins looks like no connection on it but it has connection..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on December 30, 2010, 06:47:13 PM

Quote from: j037m on December 30, 2010, 06:07:50 PM
are the fuji circuit and kodak funsaver are the same coz i think the one that kb has is a fuji transformer and the one bro dasimpson has shown is kodak transformer.. also bro kb you said you already remove the fuji transformer on the circuit board can you check if it really has a 5 pins on it coz i just buy new fuji circuit and it has same 6 pins on it when i removed it i bought it on 7 eleven store .. one of the 6 pins looks like no connection on it but it has connection..

if you look at the first 30 pages i think it is of thies thread alot of work is done around the cam units

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: j037m on December 30, 2010, 07:15:09 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on December 30, 2010, 06:47:13 PM

if you look at the first 30 pages i think it is of thies thread alot of work is done around the cam units

thanks bro i just thought its not same coz when i try the first time doing the camera circuit i buy the kodak and not knowing that im following the circuit of fuji so it end up on me busting up my kodak circuit lolz.. thats the time i ask bro bill and he give me pointers on how to do it .. and it work... by the way look on my new and first time ..hahahaha jt circuit on you tube ...
http://www.youtube.com/user/j037m#p/a/u/0/lNndpd38Wzw

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on December 30, 2010, 11:48:25 PM

Quote from: j037m on December 30, 2010, 06:07:50 PM
are the fuji circuit and kodak funsaver are the same coz i think the one that kb has is a fuji transformer and the one bro dasimpson has shown is kodak transformer.. also bro kb you said you already remove the fuji transformer on the circuit board can you check if it really has a 5 pins on it coz i just buy new fuji circuit and it has same 6 pins on it when i removed it i bought it on 7 eleven store .. one of the 6 pins looks like no connection on it but it has connection..

oh i have 6 pin on my transformer.. but i think only 5pin are connected(not so sure).. maybe wat u say is correct that it actually do connected.. May i know u buy which model of cam? mine is superior x800.. Is ur transformer stated DS64?

Btw, if u can run ur modified fuji circuit, would u mind post up ur circuit board? I will buy new cam and modify it once again. Thanks ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on January 01, 2011, 07:23:28 AM

@ All...

Something That I am going to make, not sure if it will work, but it should...
Look at the diagram, it is a simple Bendini circuit with a coil running the CD-disk with magnets, which will
start turning when Bendini is on, then as the CD turns, its axle turns a DC motor, and placed around the CD magnets is 2x pickup coils for extra power.

So then as soon as the Bendini is on and CD turns which turns motor, we will have power from 3x places...
1- motor, 2- coil (A), 3- coil (B).

Then we switch either coil (A+B) on, or switch motor on, and this power will go to the bendini circuit, then we switch off the 1xAA or CAP, and the bendini should keep going ????????

Then we can use the extra power coming from the motor or the coils (A+B) for something else.

What does everyone think ??????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 01, 2011, 07:26:27 AM

Quote from: freepow on January 01, 2011, 07:23:28 AM
@ All...

Something That I am going to make, not sure if it will work, but it should...
Look at the diagram, it is a simple Bendini circuit with a coil running the CD-disk with magnets, which will
start turning when Bendini is on, then as the CD turns, its axle turns a DC motor, and placed around the CD magnets is 2x pickup coils for extra power.

So then as soon as the Bendini is on and CD turns which turns motor, we will have power from 3x places...
1- motor, 2- coil (A), 3- coil (B).

Then we switch either coil (A+B) on, or switch motor on, and this power will go to the bendini circuit, then we switch off the 1xAA or CAP, and the bendini should keep going ??? ??? ??

Then we can use the extra power coming from the motor or the coils (A+B) for something else.

What does everyone think ??? ???

you need to use a low rpm motor i have done this with cd and hdd units the rpm are to high to get any real power

i tried this exactl experement and failed i was wlays putting more power in then i was getting out

example i drew 200ma but i could only put back 100ma for this to be a success you need to put back in what is drawn out or over

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: templer on January 01, 2011, 07:48:49 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 26, 2010, 01:25:24 PM

dear all,

this is my first post here. i have a AAA fuji board but donÂ´t know how to modify it for the earth battery combo. i am sure, it is the same fuji board as kb24 posted it before. know how to handle a multimeter and can post more pictures if needed. it would be great if anyone can give me some help to do the modification.

tnx very much

jerry
Quote

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on January 01, 2011, 07:53:04 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoEXCweMxhk

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: templer on January 01, 2011, 07:57:05 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 26, 2010, 01:25:24 PM
The Josepino site is for an AA bat. You have a AAA board which is totally different. Please do not confuse these 2 boards.

Bill

dear all,

this is my first post here. i could replicate the combo earth battery + joule thief. i have a AAA fuji board but donÂ´t know how to modify it for the earth battery combo. i am sure, it is the same fuji board as kb24 posted it before. know how to handle a multimeter and can post more pictures if needed. it would be great if anyone can give me some help to do the modification.

tnx very much
jerry

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: j037m on January 01, 2011, 11:20:50 AM

Quote from: templer on January 01, 2011, 07:57:05 AM
dear all,

this is my first post here. i could replicate the combo earth battery + joule thief. i have a AAA fuji board but donÂ´t know how to modify it for the earth battery combo. i am sure, it is the same fuji board as kb24 posted it before. know how to handle a multimeter and can post more pictures if needed. it would be great if anyone can give me some help to do the modification.

tnx very much
jerry

@jerry
look on bro lidmotor sample and sis jeanna i think they have same circuit that you have they have also aaa battery circuit on there fuji cam ..or maybe im wrong but try to look on it on post of bro lidmotor or sis jeanna..hope this help you
;Djoey

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 01, 2011, 12:10:04 PM

Quote from: templer on January 01, 2011, 07:57:05 AM
dear all,

this is my first post here. i could replicate the combo earth battery + joule thief. i have a AAA fuji board but donÂ´t know how to modify it for the earth battery combo. i am sure, it is the same fuji board as kb24 posted it before. know how to handle a multimeter and can post more pictures if needed. it would be great if anyone can give me some help to do the modification.

tnx very much
jerry

the info you need is at this post

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.14412 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.14412)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 01, 2011, 12:33:50 PM

@templer

I took your picture and show you the 4 things to mod aaa fugi as i do . there are other things to increase power like adding cap across your pot and a few more but what i show will get you going . be sure if you hook up leds to the output you use 100 or more in series .

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: j037m on January 01, 2011, 12:57:11 PM

this is the thread im saying that sis jeanna has same fuji circuit you have
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.435
from this thread you will see her fuji circuit that you have ..
;Djoey

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 01, 2011, 01:19:11 PM

Quote from: j037m on January 01, 2011, 12:57:11 PM
this is the thread im saying that sis jeanna has same fuji circuit you have
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.435
from this thread you will see her fuji circuit that you have ..
;Djoey

Hi Djoey . That link is old AA mods i believe , what i show is AAA version that temp has . IF its got an LED instead of a Neon this most likely its not the old aa version so those mods do not apply.
Thanks
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: templer on January 01, 2011, 01:52:28 PM

Quote from: j037m on January 01, 2011, 12:57:11 PM
this is the thread im saying that sis jeanna has same fuji circuit you have
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.435
from this thread you will see her fuji circuit that you have ..
;Djoey

;Djoey
thanks very much for directing me directly to the modification post. i compared my aaa fuji board with the board in the post and think, as gadget said, that they are different boards. the help i get here is really great!
jerry

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 01, 2011, 01:55:35 PM

this post shows the exact same unit ans what needs doing
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.14412 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.14412)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: j037m on January 01, 2011, 02:02:58 PM

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.480
i think its aaa bro coz reading that thread next to it is bro bill's post saying its aaa fuji circuit
the one you showing is working coz thats the way i do it by following this long thread . the problem is i cant post it here coz i send it to my friend as a gift hahaha.
the one i have now is the first fuji i have. i have 3 different fuji and all of them is different circuit weird hah.
well by reading all your post here and helping us is one great things for learning ..
;Djoey

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 01, 2011, 02:04:47 PM

i just look at the parts on the boards and compare them to ones at start of this thread that have allready be documented

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: j037m on January 01, 2011, 02:10:24 PM

Quote from: templer on January 01, 2011, 01:52:28 PM
;Djoey
thanks very much for directing me directly to the modification post. i compared my aaa fuji board with the board in the post and think, as gadget said, that they are different boards. the help i get here is really great!
jerry

just follow what they saying bro they also help me here and i learn by following them also
they are also my prof here big thanks to them..
;Djoey

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: templer on January 01, 2011, 02:12:03 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on January 01, 2011, 01:19:11 PM
Hi Djoey . That link is old AA mods i believe , what i show is AAA version that temp has . IF its got an LED instead of a Neon this most likely its not the old aa version so those mods do not apply.
Thanks
Gadget

tnx very much gadget! i understood as follows:

step 1: remove the 350 volt cap (already done)
step 2: short out D1 (diode 1) with a jumper
step 3: short out the " copper stripe button"; this can be well seen in your picture "aaafugimodded"
step 4: i donÂ´t understand clearly; i will remove R2 100 ohm and replace it with a 5 kohm poti. the two outer legs of the poti i will solder instead R2 but where i do solder the third leg of the poti

question: on picture â€œAAAmodtopâ€ it looks as the upper leg of R3 15 ohm is soldered to the lower thin copper stripe and the lower copper stripe is connected with the upper copper stripe. is this correct?

jerry

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: templer on January 01, 2011, 02:33:52 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on January 01, 2011, 02:04:47 PM
i just look at the parts on the boards and compare them to ones at start of this thread that have allready be documented

@dasimpson

i am not used to handle a forum. therefore i am a bit slow ;-), sorry for that. the board in the mentioned post looks really as my aaa fuji board and the resistor values are the same. here is my interpretation of these pictures :

+ 350 volt cap is removed
+ the negative end of diode 1 is loosened and goes to a capacitor, but which capacitor? or goes it to one end of the cfl?
+ then a wire goes from the lower end of R1 4,7 mohm to the other end of the cfl. is this correct?

where is the difference to the modification of gadget?

thanks
jerry

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 01, 2011, 02:44:52 PM

Quote from: templer on January 01, 2011, 02:33:52 PM
@dasimpson

i am not used to handle a forum. therefore i am a bit slow ;-), sorry for that. the board in the mentioned post looks really as my aaa fuji board and the resistor values are the same. here is my interpretation of these pictures :

+ 350 volt cap is removed
+ the negative end of diode 1 is loosened and goes to a capacitor, but which capacitor? or goes it to one end of the cfl?
+ then a wire goes from the lower end of R1 4,7 mohm to the other end of the cfl. is this correct?

where is the difference to the modification of gadget?

thanks
jerry

yes remove flash and cap
then a wire needs jumping from pin 3 of the tranformaer to e of the transistor see image below
shourt out the diode 1 connect both wires for the cfl were the large flash cap was

that is what i can make out of 2 or 4 images of that circuit board

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 01, 2011, 02:47:46 PM

if some one can get me an image of the front and mack of the circuit bards i can photo shop the back onto the top so the parts and traces can be seen better just wish i could clear the traces up under the black paint

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: templer on January 01, 2011, 02:57:51 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on January 01, 2011, 02:44:52 PM
yes remove flash and cap
then a wire needs jumping from pin 3 of the tranformaer to e of the transistor see image below
shourt out the diode connect both wires for the cfl were the large flash cap was

that is what i can make out of 2 or 4 images of that circuit board

dasimpson, your are absoultly right. i looked on the pics in post #14409 and you directed me to #14412. i see now where the tube is connected and which pin i have to connect with a jumper. and the two wire on the left side of the picture are the shorted diode connected to R1 4,7mohm.

as i would like to understand, could you tell me where the difference between those modification is?

thanks
jerry

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 01, 2011, 03:01:28 PM

Quote from: templer on January 01, 2011, 02:57:51 PM
dasimpson, your are absoultly right. i looked on the pics in post #14409 and you directed me to #14412. i see now where the tube is connected and which pin i have to connect with a jumper. and the two wire on the left side of the picture are the shorted diode connected to R1 4,7mohm.

as i would like to understand, could you tell me where the difference between those modification is?

thanks
jerry

the shorting of the diode and just cutting it the difference is if short it the connection is made at the cap connections but if you cut it you have to make the connection were you cut the diode

i wish i has some of these units i would clean all the coating off them and do better tutorials on how to do it

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: templer on January 01, 2011, 03:29:36 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on January 01, 2011, 03:01:28 PM
the shorting of the diode and just cutting it the difference is if short it the connection is made at the cap connections but if you cut it you have to make the connection were you cut the diode

i wish i has some of these units i would clean all the coating off them and do better tutorials on how to do it

does this picture help? you can tell me where i should remove some coating. btw, if you want i send one of these units whereever you want for free.

jerry

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 01, 2011, 03:34:12 PM

thats much better ty
i couldent ask you to do that but ty for the offer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 01, 2011, 03:40:51 PM

ok whats here

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 01, 2011, 03:59:01 PM

are you sure you have the pin outs right for the transistor cos how i follor they is no resistor on base the

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: templer on January 01, 2011, 04:17:35 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on January 01, 2011, 03:59:01 PM
are you sure you have the pin outs right for the transistor cos how i follor they is no resistor on base the

dasimpson, i am working on answering your question. perhaps this picture helps more.

tnx
jerry

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 01, 2011, 04:19:15 PM

Quote from: templer on January 01, 2011, 04:17:35 PM
dasimpson, i am working on answering your question. perhaps this picture helps more.

tnx
jerry

that is exellent

this is hard to follow because if you look at it like a standerd joule thief with a pick up coil it works nothing like it need to find out the pin outs for that transistor i serched the net for the code you gave and no results

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: templer on January 01, 2011, 04:57:36 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on January 01, 2011, 04:19:15 PM

that is exellent

this is hard to follow because if you look at it like a standerd joule thief with a pick up coil it works nothing like it need to find out the pin outs for that transistor i serched the net for the code you gave and no results

i searched for the transistor datasheet in the morning without success. now i remembered the transistor-testing-gadget i have. here are the tested transistor datas according to the attached pic:

1st leg: base
2nd leg: collector
3rd leg: emitter
hfE = 685
Uf = 746 m
NPN-transitor

base is connected to R2.

best
jerry

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 01, 2011, 05:11:19 PM

Quote from: templer on January 01, 2011, 04:57:36 PM
i searched for the transistor datasheet in the morning without success. now i remembered the transistor-testing-gadget i have. here are the tested transistor datas according to the attached pic:

1st leg: base
2nd leg: collector
3rd leg: emitter
hfE = 685
Uf = 746 m
NPN-transitor

base is connected to R2.

best
jerry

from what i have got so far here is what needs doing
also if i am right that 15k becomes 15100homs

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: templer on January 01, 2011, 05:31:27 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on January 01, 2011, 05:11:19 PM

from what i have got so far here is what needs doing
also if i am right that 15k becomes 15100homs

@dasimpson

tnx very much. i will try it tomorrow. this night i will try to make a drawing of circuit lines on the board. tomorrow i will post the drawing here and let you know the practical results.

best
jerry

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 01, 2011, 05:35:20 PM

Quote from: templer on January 01, 2011, 05:31:27 PM
@dasimpson

tnx very much. i will try it tomorrow. this night i will try to make a drawing of circuit lines on the board. tomorrow i will post the drawing here and let you know the practical results.

best
jerry

the one with the rear lighting is ideal can see them very easy.
if you could could you make an image of the front and one of the back but exactly the same
my gf uses photoshop and said she could make it so we can see the parts and the traces at the same time

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 01, 2011, 06:10:22 PM

step 1: remove the 350 volt cap (already done)
step 2: short out D1 (diode 1) with a jumper
step 3: short out the " copper stripe button"; this can be well seen in your picture "aaafugimodded"
step 4: i donÂ´t understand clearly; i will remove R2 100 ohm and replace it with a 5 kohm poti. the two outer legs of the poti i will solder instead R2 but where i do solder the third leg of the poti

Solder a 5 k pot inplace of r2 using middle leg and one outer leg so you can adjust the bias .

question: on picture â€œAAAmodtopâ€ it looks as the upper leg of R3 15 ohm is soldered to the lower thin copper stripe and the lower copper stripe is connected with the upper copper stripe. is this correct?
The copper sprip is a switch . just solder it closed .
The two long pieces of copper sticking out to the sides are not used . just cut the off . I remoced the cap ,flash lamp and trigger transformer ,not needed in this setup .
My aa mod is different and that is why i have a PDf a few pages back for them . It will run a cfl 16-24 hours on a rechargable AA.
Gadget ....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 01, 2011, 06:14:05 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on January 01, 2011, 06:10:22 PM

step 1: remove the 350 volt cap (already done)
step 2: short out D1 (diode 1) with a jumper
step 3: short out the " copper stripe button"; this can be well seen in your picture "aaafugimodded"
step 4: i donÂ´t understand clearly; i will remove R2 100 ohm and replace it with a 5 kohm poti. the two outer legs of the poti i will solder instead R2 but where i do solder the third leg of the poti

Solder a 5 k pot inplace of r2 using middle leg and one outer leg so you can adjust the bias .

question: on picture â€œAAAmodtopâ€ it looks as the upper leg of R3 15 ohm is soldered to the lower thin copper stripe and the lower copper stripe is connected with the upper copper stripe. is this correct?
The copper sprip is a switch . just solder it closed .
The two long pieces of copper sticking out to the sides are not used . just cut the off . I remoced the cap ,flash lamp and trigger transformer ,not needed in this setup .
My aa mod is different and that is why i have a PDf a few pages back for them . It will run a cfl 16-24 hours on a rechargable AA.
Gadget ....

do you connect the cfl to the negitive battery terminal and the second from the top flash terminal ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: templer on January 01, 2011, 06:39:35 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on January 01, 2011, 06:14:05 PM

do you connect the cfl to the negitive battery terminal and the second from the top flash terminal ?

@dasimspon,

i couldnÂ´t wait untill tomorrow. i shorted out as you told and connected a 4watt/6 inch philips fluorescent tube and it worked. measured 99-100 volt ac at the tube ends. i connected it differently, also as gadget recommended and it worked his and yours way. found also a 3rd and 4th way of connection. it works also with just one wire connected to one end of the tube, but very weak. i will try to make the pics from both sides as you said tomorrow and will also post here how i connected it. now i go to bed, in my time zone it is 45 min past midnight.
tnx very much for your help, see you tomorrow
jerry

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 01, 2011, 06:41:37 PM

Quote from: templer on January 01, 2011, 06:39:35 PM
@dasimspon,

i couldnÂ´t wait untill tomorrow. i shorted out as you told and connected a 4watt/6 inch philips fluorescent tube and it worked. measured 99-100 volt ac at the tube ends. i connected it differently, also as gadget recommended and it worked his and yours way. found also a 3rd and 4th way of connection. it works also with just one wire connected to one end of the tube, but very weak. i will try to make the pics from both sides as you said tomorrow and will also post here how i connected it. now i go to bed, in my time zone it is 45 min past midnight.
tnx very much for your help, see you tomorrow
jerry

no prob m8 i wasent sure if it would work from both flash termianls cos one of them leads back to the base of the transister you see

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: templer on January 01, 2011, 06:45:13 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on January 01, 2011, 06:10:22 PM

step 1: remove the 350 volt cap (already done)
step 2: short out D1 (diode 1) with a jumper
step 3: short out the " copper stripe button"; this can be well seen in your picture "aaafugimodded"
step 4: i donÂ´t understand clearly; i will remove R2 100 ohm and replace it with a 5 kohm poti. the two outer legs of the poti i will solder instead R2 but where i do solder the third leg of the poti

Solder a 5 k pot inplace of r2 using middle leg and one outer leg so you can adjust the bias .

question: on picture â€œAAAmodtopâ€ it looks as the upper leg of R3 15 ohm is soldered to the lower thin copper stripe and the lower copper stripe is connected with the upper copper stripe. is this correct?
The copper sprip is a switch . just solder it closed .
The two long pieces of copper sticking out to the sides are not used . just cut the off . I remoced the cap ,flash lamp and trigger transformer ,not needed in this setup .
My aa mod is different and that is why i have a PDf a few pages back for them . It will run a cfl 16-24 hours on a rechargable AA.
Gadget ....

i will try this tomorrow. glad that you also answered. so i get a wide overview what can be done. please see also my post #14564 for dasimpson. i wonder how it can be seen from outside if it is a camera with aa or aaa.

can you please point right to this pdf for the aa circuit.

best
jerry

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 01, 2011, 06:47:24 PM

Quote from: templer on January 01, 2011, 06:45:13 PM
i will try this tomorrow. glad that you also answered. so i get a wide overview what can be done. please see also my post #14564 for dasimpson. i wonder how it can be seen from outside if it is a camera with aa or aaa.

can you please point right to this pdf for the aa circuit.

best
jerry

i worked out why you can use the flash terminals diode 2 must allow the charge to the emitter and - of the battery

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 01, 2011, 06:48:48 PM

Quote from: templer on January 01, 2011, 06:45:13 PM
i will try this tomorrow. glad that you also answered. so i get a wide overview what can be done. please see also my post #14564 for dasimpson. i wonder how it can be seen from outside if it is a camera with aa or aaa.

can you please point right to this pdf for the aa circuit.

best
jerry

templer same info i put but he has removed all the parts that are not needed
but i ant sure how a pot will help when you have a 15k resister there anyway

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 01, 2011, 07:30:18 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on January 01, 2011, 06:48:48 PM

templer same info i put but he has removed all the parts that are not needed
but i ant sure how a pot will help when you have a 15k resister there anyway

Replacing r2 with a 5k pot allows you to control the Bias(v+) of the transistor . This allows you to get the unit to oscillate at a lower volts thus the unit runs longer .This is also the Brightness Control .A small Disk capacitor across the Pot outer legs Creates a resonance tank circuit to further increase the "steadiness" of the oscillator frequency . You have to try different values for the cap.This helps on clf bulbs becuase they are not all the same and some are harder to ionize the gas to make it light up brighter. You can also warm the cfl bulb up first with a hair dryer and it will fire them more quickly and brighter starts .you can also put a momentary push switch across the pot to quickly start the circuit but do not hold it closed .just a quick tap . Thats about it for a normal mod of mine . there are others things you can do like replace the transistor with a more powerful gain and also you can replace it with a darlington transistor for extream mods .On almost all the transformers the outside is the primary for this JT.it is usually 6 to 8 turns around the transformer with # 26 wire.you can add more turns to this and further increase the gain of that little transformer secondary coil . And there are a few more mods and that involves using the trigger transformer and a second stage . This Involves feeding back to the trigger transformer and nees some board cuts and parts . this is where you get 2000+ . Have Fun with it and experiment with them . they are very useful and i guess i have a little Mexican in me cause i love lights ;) . Light Is good.You all have a Great 2011 . HNY and God Bless
Albert
A.K.A.
Gadget.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 01, 2011, 08:42:41 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on January 01, 2011, 07:30:18 PM
Replacing r2 with a 5k pot allows you to control the Bias(v+) of the transistor . This allows you to get the unit to oscillate at a lower volts thus the unit runs longer .This is also the Brightness Control .A small Disk capacitor across the Pot outer legs Creates a resonance tank circuit to further increase the "steadiness" of the oscillator frequency . You have to try different values for the cap.This helps on clf bulbs becuase they are not all the same and some are harder to ionize the gas to make it light up brighter. You can also warm the cfl bulb up first with a hair dryer and it will fire them more quickly and brighter starts .you can also put a momentary push switch across the pot to quickly start the circuit but do not hold it closed .just a quick tap . Thats about it for a normal mod of mine . there are others things you can do like replace the transistor with a more powerful gain and also you can replace it with a darlington transistor for extream mods .On almost all the transformers the outside is the primary for this JT.it is usually 6 to 8 turns around the transformer with # 26 wire.you can add more turns to this and further increase the gain of that little transformer secondary coil . And there are a few more mods and that involves using the trigger transformer and a second stage . This Involves feeding back to the trigger transformer and nees some board cuts and parts . this is where you get 2000+ . Have Fun with it and experiment with them . they are very useful and i guess i have a little Mexican in me cause i love lights ;) . Light Is good.You all have a Great 2011 . HNY and God Bless
Albert
A.K.A.
Gadget.

ty that has just filled a large gap in missing knowledge about the cap on the resistor and how to drop the voltage usesge.
i only work with home made one's at moment i can not wind alot of winds.
bike accident limited how long i can do fiddly things for befor my hands hurt to much
i have many tourches made out of jt now but looking to build units to light my house with in expencive solar panels maybe earth battery when the weather improves somewhat

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 02, 2011, 05:18:32 AM

anyone heard from jim (electricme) lately? big flooding in queensland north of his place. just wondering if anyone has talked to him lately and if he's ok...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 02, 2011, 08:15:04 AM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on January 02, 2011, 05:18:32 AM
anyone heard from jim (electricme) lately? big flooding in queensland north of his place. just wondering if anyone has talked to him lately and if he's ok...

No I have not. Read about the flooding as well. he usually calls me about once/month but it has been a while now. He had been posting over in the Stubblefield topic area but have not seen him there either. I do hope he is ok.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 02, 2011, 08:18:22 AM

Quote from: templer on January 01, 2011, 06:45:13 PM
i will try this tomorrow. glad that you also answered. so i get a wide overview what can be done. please see also my post #14564 for dasimpson. i wonder how it can be seen from outside if it is a camera with aa or aaa.

can you please point right to this pdf for the aa circuit.

best
jerry

Jeanna figured out a long time ago how to tell the Fuji AA from the AAA from the outside. If it has a black shutter button, then it is an AA board. A green button with 4 little raised dots on it is an AAA board. But, since then we have seen at least 2 types of AA boards...similar but different transformers and transistors. Jeanna posted photos on how to tell this difference somewhere way back..

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 02, 2011, 08:21:02 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 02, 2011, 08:18:22 AM
Jeanna figured out a long time ago how to tell the Fuji AA from the AAA from the outside. If it has a black shutter button, then it is an AA board. A green button with 4 little raised dots on it is an AAA board. But, since then we have seen at least 2 types of AA boards...similar but different transformers and transistors. Jeanna posted photos on how to tell this difference somewhere way back..

Bill

i think i can maybe work out most of the boards if i get clear enogth pictures and the pinout info for the transistor

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: templer on January 02, 2011, 09:37:26 AM

Quote from: dasimpson on January 02, 2011, 08:21:02 AM

i think i can maybe work out most of the boards if i get clear enogth pictures and the pinout info for the transistor

here are the pics. hope this helps for the photoshop work. can mail them also in higher resolution.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 02, 2011, 10:51:58 AM

Quote from: templer on January 02, 2011, 09:37:26 AM
here are the pics. hope this helps for the photoshop work. can mail them also in higher resolution.

apparently im going to be shown how to do the editing so i can do it in futor if need be bare with me this could take while lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 02, 2011, 11:56:44 AM

ok we did are best to make it so you can see the tracers while also been able to see the compnents we also mirrowed the rear view to see eayer on the fron for clearer comparison

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 02, 2011, 11:58:44 AM

@Bill
Thanks for reminding me about Jeanna's work on the fuji circuit also . IF it had not been for her and everyone else like xee2 and Jim and you Doing Experiments on that fuji it would have jusy been the old Jose Pinto ( hope i spelled it right ) Mod.What i learned about it was from here and trying different things so i take only my % of credit . The whole belongs to the research group here . And you were the First to run 400 plus leds and make a video :)
I also wonder about Jim . I pray he well . By his recommendation i am taking non conventional medicine MMS to fight cancer . I feel a bit better , I dont know if it's actually helping me or not but i feel better.
Take care .

Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: templer on January 02, 2011, 12:01:31 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on January 01, 2011, 07:30:18 PM
Replacing r2 with a 5k pot allows you to control the Bias(v+) of the transistor . This allows you to get the unit to oscillate at a lower volts thus the unit runs longer ........

replaced R2 with a 25 kohm pot. removed the led, the trigger trafo, the flash, the copper sticking. connected a tube (philips TL Mini 4W/33-640) to the pins of the removed cap. with tube itÂ´s 99 v and without tube itÂ´s 140 v - for both R2 is 15 ohm. R2 with 25kohm the tube doesnÂ´t light, voltage is then about 52 volts. i tried several caps, elkos and others, parallel to the pot but no difference in brightness. but if i touch the tube or different areas of the board, brightness gets much higher.

brightness with a cfl is very poor and also just on one side of the cfl. but how can it be: the tube lights also when it is just connected on one end. if i touch it, it gets much brighter too. this works alos with a small 230 v/ac lamp.

i want it much brighter. so i will try different cfl. do the aa boards deliver a higher voltage? anyway i am looking for further improvements in brightness. tnx to pirate for the difference info. in a short time i will get some kodak boards from a photo-shop and will test them too.
tnx for all the help
jerry

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 02, 2011, 12:13:57 PM

Quote from: templer on January 02, 2011, 12:01:31 PM
replaced R2 with a 25 kohm pot. removed the led, the trigger trafo, the flash, the copper sticking. connected a tube (philips TL Mini 4W/33-640) to the pins of the removed cap. with tube itÂ´s 99 v and without tube itÂ´s 140 v - for both R2 is 15 ohm. R2 with 25kohm the tube doesnÂ´t light, voltage is then about 52 volts. i tried several caps, elkos and others, parallel to the pot but no difference in brightness. but if i touch the tube or different areas of the board, brightness gets much higher.

brightness with a cfl is very poor and also just on one side of the cfl. but how can it be: the tube lights also when it is just connected on one end. if i touch it, it gets much brighter too. this works alos with a small 230 v/ac lamp.

i want it much brighter. so i will try different cfl. do the aa boards deliver a higher voltage? anyway i am looking for further improvements in brightness. tnx to pirate for the difference info. in a short time i will get some kodak boards from a photo-shop and will test them too.
tnx for all the help
jerry

did you try it like this

i can explain more about this circuit if you wont

also is the battery terminal i have said clf is that negitive?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: j037m on January 02, 2011, 12:29:24 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on January 02, 2011, 11:58:44 AM
@Bill
Thanks for reminding me about Jeanna's work on the fuji circuit also . IF it had not been for her and everyone else like xee2 and Jim and you Doing Experiments on that fuji it would have jusy been the old Jose Pinto ( hope i spelled it right ) Mod.What i learned about it was from here and trying different things so i take only my % of credit . The whole belongs to the research group here . And you were the First to run 400 plus leds and make a video :)
I also wonder about Jim . I pray he well . By his recommendation i am taking non conventional medicine MMS to fight cancer . I feel a bit better , I dont know if it's actually helping me or not but i feel better.
Take care .

Al

yes bro your right thanks to them for helping us here to learn more good things like this one also thanks to you coz you also help us new member for guiding us like you doing now as i read this long thread. i learn also just on this thread alone youll see more updated and modification that all of you put..
;Djoey

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: templer on January 02, 2011, 01:13:21 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on January 02, 2011, 12:13:57 PM
did you try it like this
i can explain more about this circuit if you wont
also is the battery terminal i have said clf is that negitive?

>>>do you connect the cfl to the negitive battery terminal and the second from the top flash terminal ?<<<
yes that works with less brightness compared to both tube sides connected to both of the flash terminals. tube lights also when just the second top flash terminal is connected. tube with just one end connected to the second top flash terminal is even a little brighter than connected the second tube end to the negative battery. all above works also with the cfl, but with much less brightness. the battery terminal you signed in the pic is the negative one!

it would be great to learn more about this circuit!

best
jerry

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 02, 2011, 01:16:10 PM

Quote from: templer on January 02, 2011, 01:13:21 PM
>>>do you connect the cfl to the negitive battery terminal and the second from the top flash terminal ?<<<
yes that works with less brightness compared to both tube sides connected to both of the flash terminals. tube lights also when just the second top flash terminal is connected. tube with just one end connected to the second top flash terminal is even a little brighter than connected the second tube end to the negative battery. all above works also with the cfl, but with much less brightness. the battery terminal you signed in the pic is the negative one!

it would be great to learn more about this circuit!

best
jerry

ok when you measure the voltage of the output how are you doing that ac or dc
also i feel they might be a couple of other components on the board that hold back the power

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 02, 2011, 01:20:52 PM

Quote from: templer on January 02, 2011, 01:13:21 PM
>>>do you connect the cfl to the negitive battery terminal and the second from the top flash terminal ?<<<
yes that works with less brightness compared to both tube sides connected to both of the flash terminals. tube lights also when just the second top flash terminal is connected. tube with just one end connected to the second top flash terminal is even a little brighter than connected the second tube end to the negative battery. all above works also with the cfl, but with much less brightness. the battery terminal you signed in the pic is the negative one!

it would be great to learn more about this circuit!

best
jerry

yes you are correct i had forgot this runs like a standerd joule thief with pick up coil so the two flash terminals are best for the connection
a

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 02, 2011, 01:21:49 PM

what i would like to know is why they have a diode going from base to negitive battery terminal
do you have msn ?
if so we might be able to talk more in real timethen waiting on emails telling us about new posts

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: templer on January 02, 2011, 01:39:10 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on January 02, 2011, 01:21:49 PM
what i would like to know is why they have a diode going from base to negitive battery terminal
do you have msn ?
if so we might be able to talk more in real timethen waiting on emails telling us about new posts

all measured in ac. i donÂ´t have msn installed but skype, my skype name is setun123 . i am leaving right now for a visit of relatives. we could talk tomorrow, here it is right now 1838 utc. if you do not have skype i will install msn.

best
jerry

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 02, 2011, 01:43:38 PM

Quote from: templer on January 02, 2011, 01:39:10 PM
all measured in ac. i donÂ´t have msn installed but skype, my skype name is setun123 . i am leaving right now for a visit of relatives. we could talk tomorrow, here it is right now 1838 utc. if you do not have skype i will install msn.

best
jerry

no i dont have skype
i have the same time here were are you from ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: poynt99 on January 02, 2011, 02:51:45 PM

Joule Thief enthusiasts,

For those seeking further challenges and improvements with this project, here is a circuit that claims to allow battery operation down to 250mV.

Credits to the author: Louis Vlemincq of EDN Magazine. (I put it all together in a convenient PDF.)

.99

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 02, 2011, 05:16:27 PM

Quote from: poynt99 on January 02, 2011, 02:51:45 PM
Joule Thief enthusiasts,

For those seeking further challenges and improvements with this project, here is a circuit that claims to allow battery operation down to 250mV.

Credits to the author: Louis Vlemincq of EDN Magazine. (I put it all together in a convenient PDF.)

.99

50 turns base 2 turns collector i dont think so

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: templer on January 03, 2011, 11:27:39 AM

Quote from: dasimpson on January 02, 2011, 01:21:49 PM
what i would like to know is why they have a diode going from base to negitive battery terminal
do you have msn ?
if so we might be able to talk more in real timethen waiting on emails telling us about new posts

@dasimpson
living in austria. installed msn, my msn identity is setun123. i am at home right now and will stay awake till 2230 utc. but never used before msn. so it could take some minutes to figure out what to do on the software....
best
jerrry

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 03, 2011, 12:04:03 PM

Quote from: templer on January 03, 2011, 11:27:39 AM
@dasimpson
living in austria. installed msn, my msn identity is setun123. i am at home right now and will stay awake till 2230 utc. but never used before msn. so it could take some minutes to figure out what to do on the software....
best
jerrry

let me add skype i do have an account but bee along while since i used it
btw for msn it is the full email that is needed to add as contact my skype is dasimpson1981

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on January 04, 2011, 07:05:31 AM

@ All, I am testing a joulethief powered by 1x AA rechargable battery with 1x LED lit + charging a supercap,
and I left it on overnight and I lost 4 mV on the run battery, but gained 192 mV on my supercap.

Is this overunity by any chance ????

I will be doing more experiments.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on January 04, 2011, 09:04:15 AM

Hi everyone, i am back ;D and i can get my fuji running already after referring to few pages before this.. I just jump the diode without cutting it and replace caps leg with tube. But my real challenge begin here, my fuji circuit can run on AAA battery, but when i replace it with my Earth battery, i my fuji circuit is not running. May i know why? My Eb has high voltage but very low ampere. What modification can i do with fuji circuit to make it run on Eb?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 04, 2011, 11:13:57 AM

To all

I got this really interesting link

http://www.talkingelectronics.com/contents/articles/148/1/Xenon-Flasher/Page1.html

But to all that has a camera circuit , once you get it to work and had your fun , get ready for the next level , the JT has many babies to bring up and to most promising of them is joule ringer ...

I came here some years ago for a day like today , seeded hope when ever i could , it is my firm belief that all our resources be directed to the JR (joule ringer).

Those are the facts as of today ... All of this because of Lasersaber he made us proud with the NS coil , now we have the LS joule ringer .

Some links ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbLQATOjZhE

first attempt of replication by Lidmotor

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2XoiZC8ZEg

Have a good day everyone .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: j037m on January 04, 2011, 12:10:53 PM

Quote from: kb24 on January 04, 2011, 09:04:15 AM
Hi everyone, i am back ;D and i can get my fuji running already after referring to few pages before this.. I just jump the diode without cutting it and replace caps leg with tube. But my real challenge begin here, my fuji circuit can run on AAA battery, but when i replace it with my Earth battery, i my fuji circuit is not running. May i know why? My Eb has high voltage but very low ampere. What modification can i do with fuji circuit to make it run on Eb?

i think i read on eb thread someone there use basic jt that connected to eb and the other end is connected to the fuji circuit try to read some on the post they made. here the thread for the eb.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8540.135

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: osiris on January 04, 2011, 12:36:33 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 29, 2010, 03:04:06 PM
IST is still standing tall on the shoulders of Big Clive, MK1, Jeanna, Gadget and all of the rest of us. I am not saying he is not showing anything new here, maybe he is but, he still fails to recognize who's work it is based upon.

Happy New Year everyone.

Bill

DONT FEED THE KIDS YOUR COMPLEATE BULLSHIT !

i tought you goof !
:P
the things i could release ... will implode your small mind

my best advice for you is to stop stealing my work ..
or your gonna be verry sorry !

i just finished my DEAD BATTERY 7 CHANNEL 2 freq pulser rf vhf uhf ..
it is 4 channel rf 2 channel vhf and 1 channel uhf
it has 1 simple transistor

finished my closed loop flashlight 3watts FULL BRIGHTNESS.. it has a recharge unit employed
runs on 1.2vdc recharges 2.4 vdc
yawn

do i need to post pictures ?

steal my work will you ?

i just built my low low low volt plasma pulser 3 freqs .. yawn agin !

my work hits the floor next thing you know LOW LOW LOW LOW VOLT :P plasma pulser

i will say this its so MRI 8)

OSIRIS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDAaevTq51I

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 04, 2011, 12:47:36 PM

@osiris

Your video is blocked for my country.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: e2matrix on January 04, 2011, 01:14:58 PM

I don't think you are missing anything Jesus. It's just a music video.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on January 05, 2011, 05:45:09 AM

Hello, my low power joulethief lights 20xLED's dim, at total current draw of only 0.21 mA, powered by
1x AA @ 1.405v

or 1x LED lit fairly good at same draw current 0.21 mA

If I change toroid and resistance, I can light 1x LED fairly good at only 0.11 mA

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 05, 2011, 04:38:55 PM

i have gone back to my very first jt this was 20 turns bifilar with 35 AWG (http://www.overunity.com/wiki/American_wire_gauge) mag wire 1k resistor with a 5mm super bright white led

i found the 2n3904 would not start at 0.35v but it jump started it did work but the light wasent ethern enogth to read a book with

but when i tried the bc337-25 it started at 0.35v ok it uses more current but in doing so the led was 2 to 3 times brighter then when using the 2n3904

i am going to try other transistors also to see what they results are this will be as and when i get them as they will be salvage and see how they perform what i really would like is a transistor that turns on at very low voltage uses very little current but light the led very bright

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on January 06, 2011, 04:32:18 AM

To dasimpson, Hello from freepow, Australia, I too would like to turn on the transistor at very low voltage, but also with the low current draw that I have got so far !

With a rechargeable AA @ 3000 mA, you could light 1x Led @ .1 mA(not real bright), that would give 30,000 hours of light.

But I will be using supercaps,

I can with a simple Earth battery which is really a Earth energy receiver (EER), power a simple joulethief+LED

I am looking to fine tune my joulethief as much as I can

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 06, 2011, 06:09:43 AM

Quote from: freepow on January 06, 2011, 04:32:18 AM
To dasimpson, Hello from freepow, Australia, I too would like to turn on the transistor at very low voltage, but also with the low current draw that I have got so far !

With a rechargeable AA @ 3000 mA, you could light 1x Led @ .1 mA(not real bright), that would give 30,000 hours of light.

But I will be using supercaps,

I can with a simple Earth battery which is really a Earth energy receiver (EER), power a simple joulethief+LED

I am looking to fine tune my joulethief as much as I can

the problem is with using rechargeable betterys is there self dishcharge rate
im loking into super caps but i needed to ask somthing 10f is 10 ampera ?
if so dose this make the cap 10000mah
earth battery id love to make but have very little garden and open to a main road were it may get messed with so earth batterys are on hold to i build a raised bed in my back yard
the only thing i could use the super caps with at moment are solar panels from garden lights

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on January 06, 2011, 08:18:11 AM

@ dasimpson

I have been using a 50F 2.7v supercap in my 5 yo son's night light, I only have to charge it to about 1.5v
and the 1x LED seems to last all night and by the morning it becomes very dim.

If I charge it to about 1.5v that means I will get a total of approx 10 mA, for 1 Hour or for 1 Min = 600 mA,

So for example if I lit a 20xLED (240v) bulb @ a draw current of 150 mA, I could light it for 600/150 = 4 min

A 10F charged to say 2.5v should give you about 3.4 mA for 1 Hour or 204 mA for 1 min

I think I may have come on to something, not sure yet, but my low draw joulethief has 1x AA rechareable
battery for the run battery, and I have my 50F supercap for the charge cap, and I have it running back into the AA battery, my interesting results so far is this...

When I adjusted the Var-res at just the right spot, the results were strange...

RUN BATTERY SUPER-CAP

1.229v .910v
1.239v .920v
1.241v .925v

By adjusting my var-resistor to the spot with where LED lit at the lowest light level (still bright)

results so far over a short interval of time... RUN BATTERY SUPER-CAP

1.252v .805v
1.255v .804v
1.257v .803v

Then I adjusted the Var-res to the spot where the LED lit the brightest (very bright)

results so far over a short interval of time... RUN BATTERY SUPER-CAP

1.128v .870v

But now I have found the spot where this is happening...
1.238v 1.010v
1.238v 1.040v
1.238v 1.044v
1.238v 1.052v

I can literally charge either one up by simply adjusting the Var-res or charge both up at the same time !
I may be onto something, and the LED is lit bright or super bright while I am running this joulethief and charging at the same time.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 06, 2011, 10:06:42 AM

Quote from: freepow on January 06, 2011, 08:18:11 AM
@ dasimpson

I have been using a 50F 2.7v supercap in my 5 yo son's night light, I only have to charge it to about 1.5v
and the 1x LED seems to last all night and by the morning it becomes very dim.

If I charge it to about 1.5v that means I will get a total of approx 10 mA, for 1 Hour or for 1 Min = 600 mA,

So for example if I lit a 20xLED (240v) bulb @ a draw current of 150 mA, I could light it for 600/150 = 4 min

A 10F charged to say 2.5v should give you about 3.4 mA for 1 Hour or 204 mA for 1 min

I think I may have come on to something, not sure yet, but my low draw joulethief has 1x AA rechareable
battery for the run battery, and I have my 50F supercap for the charge cap, and I have it running back into the AA battery, my interesting results so far is this...

When I adjusted the Var-res at just the right spot, the results were strange...

RUN BATTERY SUPER-CAP

1.229v .910v
1.239v .920v
1.241v .925v

By adjusting my var-resistor to the spot with where LED lit at the lowest light level (still bright)

results so far over a short interval of time... RUN BATTERY SUPER-CAP

1.252v .805v
1.255v .804v
1.257v .803v

Then I adjusted the Var-res to the spot where the LED lit the brightest (very bright)

results so far over a short interval of time... RUN BATTERY SUPER-CAP

1.128v .870v

But now I have found the spot where this is happening...
1.238v 1.010v
1.238v 1.040v
1.238v 1.044v
1.238v 1.052v

I can literally charge either one up by simply adjusting the Var-res or charge both up at the same time !
I may be onto something, and the LED is lit bright or super bright while I am running this joulethief and charging at the same time.

doh maths not my strong point that lot kinda went over my head lol
searching internet now to understand the maths in the use and size of caps

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 06, 2011, 02:25:03 PM

ok i have a AA battery that reads 1.240 volts on the positive side of the battery a 1k resistor
i have the positive side of my multi meter after the 1k res the negitive one is on the negitive side of the battery the meter is set for 200ma
and i get a reading of 16ma what am i acturley reading here?

am i measuring current avelable?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: osiris on January 06, 2011, 03:25:25 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on January 06, 2011, 02:25:03 PM
ok i have a AA battery that reads 1.240 volts on the positive side of the battery a 1k resistor
i have the positive side of my multi meter after the 1k res the negitive one is on the negitive side of the battery the meter is set for 200ma
and i get a reading of 16ma what am i acturley reading here?

am i measuring current avelable?

be carefull with your meter .. when it is configured porperly it will BLOW YOUR FUSE ..

this is why i do not read out put i have filled rooms with smoke .. its your choise tho

i have blowen many meters

i just finished my ubc charger rapid speed !

i fill 5.2vdc @1500f in less than 15 min .. burning up 1000v diodes at 1 amp

so it works well

osiris

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 06, 2011, 03:30:43 PM

Quote from: osiris on January 06, 2011, 03:25:25 PM
be carefull with your meter .. when it is configured porperly it will BLOW YOUR FUSE ..

this is why i do not read out put i have filled rooms with smoke .. its your choise tho

i have blowen many meters

i just finished my ubc charger rapid speed !

i fill 5.2vdc @1500f in less than 15 min .. burning up 1000v diodes at 1 amp

so it works well

osiris

i start at the 10amp reading if it is below .2amp then ill move to the 200ma range

i give up with caps after relising that 1500f and other sizes when i worked out thay are only amps per second

and the maths give me a head ack

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 06, 2011, 05:13:44 PM

Hello everyone . I would recommend what mark said and concentrate on Lightsabers joule ringer . I have replicated it and have not got it to ring for very long on caps but on a battery i ran cfl and led for 16 hours with a GAIN in the battery . this is called reguaging . So the total draw on this circuit was so tiny my meter cannot register it . it was well below 1/2 microamp and the voltage was going up instead of down . the result was i started with a 1.245 volt battery and at the end of 16 hours standing volts was still 1.245 . Very interesting stuff . uses two components and with a few different mods i did a few more replications and it keeps getting better ! .first pic is my second rep of lightsaber joule ringer and second is lamp brightness next is my mod to lightsabers joule ringer into a battery regauager and last is a mod i did this morning using a coil i wound by HAZENS way . the battery remains the same all day long and is still running in the corner and volts are 1.235 now but the start volts on that aa battery was 1.225 before it ran all day :). first pic using AAA fuji transformer and transistor and lightsaber coil with 4 germanium diodes on it . other component is 2 2200uf 25v electrolitic caps parallel to the battery and thats it. . 1 volt very bright .also it will not run or reguage on a super cap or an ultra cap. it drains it within 30 minuits . weird .
Albert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 06, 2011, 07:09:57 PM

9 hours later ....with the hazens coil replacing lightsabers bifialar .plus some mods i did and sometime around noon i added a 68pf across my little pot but i didnt disconnect the circuit . it made it work a bit better i think .well worth the time spent on this ..the photos are about 3 hours apart and its not a meter fluke . I shut the system down to check the standing volts and for sure it is always above or at the beginning standing volts . Nice . I am not saying its ou its prolonging the battery by reguaging it . Time will tell . STill this is better results that my fugi mods i did a year or so ago with run time 24 hours on an aa battery . this will beat that by far . thanks lasersaber!
Albert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: bolt on January 07, 2011, 07:20:19 AM

turn it up a bit make it more impressive ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 07, 2011, 08:36:29 AM

Well its not that bright Bolt ;) and the other pics i took were in the dark no flash but it will light a room up and you can read by them . Those little Cfls do put out some good light .Plus i have this one turned down . i can turn that pot and get some serious light but it wont reguage as well . that will be a test for later .This is a bit brighter than my 26 watt CFL lamp fixture that runs for about 24 hours on an aa. I broke my record on running a cfl with this lightsaber circuit using a battery and a jule thief coil instead of a stubblefield coil . 27 hours so far and plenty of juice still in the battery and Cfl lit the same along with an led running off the torroid secondary 1.229-1.230 after 27 hours . not bad i must say . this will probably run for another 2 or 3 days i suspect . I have not been on in a long time like a year or so so that record is probably old anyways .
@all Great job on your Jt's and recording the numbers . Let's keep this thread alive and please do continue on with all projects .

Albert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 07, 2011, 09:24:26 AM

could some one pls answer my question from befor?
it was about having a battery and resistor is series
and masureing the ampage
is it 16ma allowed max or is it the usage of the resistor?
ty

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 07, 2011, 10:10:17 AM

Happy new year!!!

Hello @gadgetmall.

Is this schematic correct? It needs the bifilar turns number.
Also to verify if the toroid is 22 turns bifilar.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 07, 2011, 10:13:00 AM

i was just re reading the thread when i cam to the resistance substitution wheel and thos we could mek one with a breadboard one side of the resister all go to the same place but the other side has a wire we move up or down the hole for each resistance

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 07, 2011, 10:46:50 AM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on January 07, 2011, 10:10:17 AM
Happy new year!!!

Hello @gadgetmall.

Is this schematic correct? It needs the bifilar turns number.
Also to verify if the toroid is 22 turns bifilar.

Jesus

Hello Jesus ! Yes that is correct on my mod to lasersabers joule ringer and calling it fusionchip gadget lightsaber battery reguager 3rd mod :) . I am waiting for 10000uf caps but right now it reguages the battery and 2200uf cap for very long cfl light . Also i have another one where i use just the HAZENS torroid and it has a secondary . Do you remember Hazen? It was a long time ago but he wound some pretty coils and i lost the winding turns on it but i wound a few and saved them . Well I replaced the bifialar coil alltogether with the hazens coil torroid and that is the one i have in the corner i am testing as of now . It works good at reguaging and so far 29 hours and plenty of power . the one you drew works even better with lights saber coil _ hazen coil i tested a day ago and its good for running and reguaging(drawing hardly nothing meter wise )while its running . I counted 22 turns and that is 11 wraps red and then 11 wraps green and tie the center together . i now run the led from the secondary but dont put this one up yet until i figure out what i am doing on the hazen coil version without the lightsaber coil. ok . Nice schematic . I knew you would get it first time . :) Thank you man . Happy new year

Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: osiris on January 07, 2011, 11:32:31 AM

So
tell me why it lites....
yawn ill tell you :D
ever pulse a floro bulb .. and touch it ... ? it is merucry vaper ? lol
kick it it kicks back ONLY BIGGER

sounds like me !!!

i charge 2 boost caps in 5 min .. it runs my 130 lumens led for 5 hours ...

osiris

if i hook up 2 more caps ... it will blow the diode OFF THE BOARD !
;D
i was able to charge 2 boost caps 1 time with a 4007 diode befor it burnt out and filled the shop with smoke .. it litterly rolls smoke in seconds .. :o

so should an engineer check out my work ... i expect an engineer to be schooled properly befor they try to tell me how my shit works ..

i want the engery calculated properly this means .. the temeiture of the output diode the temp of the coil the amount of energy consumed and the output ..

aint too much to ask .. is it ?

no more dumb engineers !

so if you saw the wires im useing you all would say impossible to pass however many watts in so many seconds over cat5 wire ...

the wires bairly get warm ...

it will be contained inside a rf amp case ...

gadget .. get an inductive amp .. and HEAR THE MESS YOUR TOY MAKES ..
have you managed to land loose electrons on close by tools yet ?
or door knobs ? bet youll only open the door and never know what happined

!!

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10205.msg269985#msg269985

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 07, 2011, 12:48:17 PM

@gadgetmall

Do you mean this one?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 07, 2011, 12:54:43 PM

Or you mean this one?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 07, 2011, 01:04:22 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on January 07, 2011, 12:54:43 PM
Or you mean this one?

Yes this one the three color one . Looks like a Hazen to me !

ist get some sleep ;D

Albert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 07, 2011, 01:12:02 PM

Thank you @gadgetmall!

Now we need to begin gathering the parts to replicate.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 07, 2011, 04:27:11 PM

Al:

Once again, very nice work sir. I had all but forgotten about the Hazen's coil. Brilliant of you to not only remember it, but to substitute it in Lasersaber's circuit. Very well done man.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: osiris on January 07, 2011, 05:01:56 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-zoxnWY3q0

watch it i will wack you with my flash light only shoots a light beam 426' how far it go i nano dip it ?

hummmmm

see im kicking ass big time and takeing names ...

8)

ps ever see my X coil you never will ...

osiris

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: poynt99 on January 07, 2011, 07:40:22 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on January 06, 2011, 02:25:03 PM
ok i have a AA battery that reads 1.240 volts on the positive side of the battery a 1k resistor
i have the positive side of my multi meter after the 1k res the negitive one is on the negitive side of the battery the meter is set for 200ma
and i get a reading of 16ma what am i acturley reading here?

am i measuring current avelable?

1.24V/1kOhm = 1.24mA

So I would say your resistor may not be a 1k.

1.24V/16mA = 77.5 Ohms

Measure your resistor again.

.99

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 07, 2011, 07:44:14 PM

Quote from: poynt99 on January 07, 2011, 07:40:22 PM
1.24V/1kOhm = 1.24mA

So I would say your resistor may not be a 1k.

1.24V/16mA = 77.5 Ohms

Measure your resistor again.

.99

ah crap 97.5 ohms woooooops
this would explain why my jt been pulling more current then normal

maths hate them
ok my question is what am i measuring the usage or the amount avaliable

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 07, 2011, 07:54:41 PM

ok this time it is a 1.5 volt battery and with a 985 ohms resistor i got 1.5ma

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: poynt99 on January 07, 2011, 07:58:16 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on January 07, 2011, 07:54:41 PM
ok this time it is a 1.5 volt battery and with a 985 ohms resistor i got 1.5ma

There ya go, now you're in the ball park ;)

.99

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 07, 2011, 07:59:59 PM

Quote from: poynt99 on January 07, 2011, 07:58:16 PM
There ya go, now you're in the ball park ;)

.99

but what exactly have i measured here
is this what any cicuit would have to run on or is this what the resistor was using?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: poynt99 on January 07, 2011, 08:04:47 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on January 07, 2011, 07:59:59 PM

but what exactly have i measured here
is this what any cicuit would have to run on or is this what the resistor was using?

Do yourself a big favor, and learn Ohm's law.

You have measured the "circuit current", I. When you insert the meter, it completes the circuit, and...

I = V/R

.99

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 07, 2011, 08:11:50 PM

Quote from: poynt99 on January 07, 2011, 08:04:47 PM
Do yourself a big favor, and learn Ohm's law.

You have measured the "circuit current", I. When you insert the meter, it completes the circuit, and...

I = V/R

.99

i know ohms law i know that if you measure the voltage of the resister in a circut you then devide the voltage reading by the resistnce to get the current usage but i used a restser and mesured the ampage not voltage

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: poynt99 on January 07, 2011, 08:17:53 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on January 07, 2011, 08:11:50 PM
i know ohms law i know that if you measure the voltage of the resister in a circut you then devide the voltage reading by the resistnce to get the current usage but i used a restser and mesured the ampage not voltage

Alright, then perhaps the basics of using a meter is in order.

When measuring voltage (and meter is set to "voltage"), the meter leads are in "parallel" with your circuit.

When measuring current (and the meter is set to "current"), the meter leads are in "series" with your circuit.

.99

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: poynt99 on January 07, 2011, 08:21:03 PM

Study this:
http://www.electronics-radio.com/articles/test-methods/meters/how-to-measure-current.php

.99

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 07, 2011, 08:28:47 PM

Quote from: poynt99 on January 07, 2011, 08:21:03 PM
Study this:
http://www.electronics-radio.com/articles/test-methods/meters/how-to-measure-current.php (http://www.electronics-radio.com/articles/test-methods/meters/how-to-measure-current.php)

.99

i know how to use a meter but you still dont understand what i am asking

ok here it is i have a battery then a resister does the risiter limit the current the circuit can use example say the battery can give 1000ma but i only wont 1 ma would a resister do this?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: poynt99 on January 07, 2011, 08:35:41 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on January 07, 2011, 08:28:47 PM
i know how to use a meter but you still dont understand what i am asking

ok here it is i have a battery then a resister does the risiter limit the current the circuit can use example say the battery can give 1000ma but i only wont 1 ma would a resister do this?

You claim you know Ohm's law, but by this question, clearly it is not yet solid in your thinking :)

Yes, of course a resistor will limit the current in a circuit, this is what resistors do ;) So if you have a 1V battery, capable of much higher current than you require, you can neglect the limiting effects (internal resistance) of the battery itself, and just use Ohm's law to figure out your required resistance.

Thus, if you want 1mA maximum and your battery voltage is 1V, then 1V/1mA = 1k

.99

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 07, 2011, 08:42:26 PM

Quote from: poynt99 on January 07, 2011, 08:35:41 PM
You claim you know Ohm's law, but by this question, clearly it is not yet solid in your thinking :)

Yes, of course a resistor will limit the current in a circuit, this is what resistors do ;) So if you have a 1V battery, capable of much higher current than you require, you can neglect the limiting effects (internal resistance) of the battery itself, and just use Ohm's law to figure out your required resistance.

Thus, if you want 1mA and your battery voltage is 1V, then 1V/1mA = 1k

.99

ty i know ohms law but putting it into practice like you just have i have to come to grips with i have only used it to measure current flow
what id also like to ask is what resistor would be best to use in a circuit for using ohms law to find current use with out affecting the current avaliable to much

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 07, 2011, 08:44:24 PM

i have read that the internal resistance effects the freqancy the jt works out how would you go about finding the internal resistance of a battery

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: poynt99 on January 07, 2011, 08:47:10 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on January 07, 2011, 08:42:26 PM
ty i know ohms law but putting it into practice like you just have i have to come to grips with i have only used it to measure current flow
what id also like to ask is what resistor would be best to use in a circuit for using ohms law to find current use with out affecting the current avaliable to much

Often, a current sensing resistor (CSR) is used for this purpose. In this case, you measure the voltage across this resistor to calculate the current. But if you can use one of your meters in series with the circuit, and the current is steady DC, you will have an accurate measurement without affecting the maximum current available from the battery, especially if you use the 10A meter setting and jacks (lower value CSR).

.99

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 07, 2011, 08:50:07 PM

Quote from: poynt99 on January 07, 2011, 08:47:10 PM
Often, a current sensing resistor (CSR) is used for this purpose. In this case, you measure the voltage across this resistor to calculate the current. But if you can use one of your meters in series with the circuit, and the current is steady DC, you will have an accurate measurement without affecting the maximum current available from the battery, especially if you use the 10A meter setting and jacks (lower value CSR).

.99

yeah i normaly use the ampage side of my meter the resion i ask is i have an mp3 player that runs off 1 aaa and i wonted to know the current draw but it wont turn on properly if i try and use the ampage reading on my meter

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: poynt99 on January 07, 2011, 08:50:48 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on January 07, 2011, 08:44:24 PM
i have read that the internal resistance effects the freqancy the jt works out how would you go about finding the internal resistance of a battery

I think you may be going deeper than is necessary. What exactly are you trying to do that hasn't already been done on this thread?

.99

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: poynt99 on January 07, 2011, 08:54:11 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on January 07, 2011, 08:50:07 PM
yeah i normaly use the ampage side of my meter the resion i ask is i have an mp3 player that runs off 1 aaa and i wonted to know the current draw but it wont turn on properly if i try and use the ampage reading on my meter

Try the 10A setting and jack. This will provide a lower resistance and drop less voltage. If you already are, then try another, better meter.

.99

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 07, 2011, 08:54:33 PM

Quote from: poynt99 on January 07, 2011, 08:50:48 PM
I think you may be going deeper than is necessary. What exactly are you trying to do that hasn't already been done on this thread?

.99

trying to work out what makes it work the best why freqancy matterys so much i maybe going to deap for my ability in maths and other things

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 07, 2011, 08:55:46 PM

Quote from: poynt99 on January 07, 2011, 08:54:11 PM
Try the 10A setting and jack. This will provide a lower resistance and drop less voltage. If you already are, then try another, better meter.

.99

lol i just did that as we speak as my new meter has the 10 amp range and it worked ty

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on January 08, 2011, 08:18:03 AM

May i ask what possible reason for my led not to light up when i connect my primary winding to base of transistor?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 08, 2011, 08:20:33 AM

Quote from: kb24 on January 08, 2011, 08:18:03 AM
May i ask what possible reason for my led not to light up when i connect my primary winding to base of transistor?

are you saying you remove the resistor?
if so that wont work to well as the base has to have less current running thry it then the collector for the mag feilds in the winding to work

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 08, 2011, 08:21:39 AM

Quote from: dasimpson on January 08, 2011, 08:20:33 AM
are you saying you remove the resistor?
if so that wont work to well as the base has to have less current running thry it then the collector for the mag feilds in the winding to work

also you need to run an led over 2.4 volts otherwise they is no need for the jt

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 08, 2011, 09:05:52 AM

i am killing my rechargable batterys at the moment testing i was just woundering if they is a way i could make it so the battery turns off at a set voltage drop .90 to 1v if possible

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 08, 2011, 09:10:51 AM

Good Luck!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 08, 2011, 07:26:36 PM

i have just had an idea.
here goes the ouput of a jt is pulsed dc correct ?
so what if we put this into a step up transformer.
100 turns to 1000 turns this should up the voltage.
now if we take the output of that step up transformer and then do the reverse step it down but the same way we steped it up.
if i understand transformer right this should give us more ampage but i am not counting the losses that tranformers have.
or maybe what happens in theory dosent always work in practice

i guess as long as they are no diodes in a car coil maybe that be worth a try

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: poynt99 on January 08, 2011, 08:56:47 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on January 08, 2011, 07:26:36 PM
the ouput of a jt is pulsed dc correct ?
so what if we put this into a step up transformer.
...
now if we take the output of that step up transformer and then do the reverse step it down but the same way we steped it up.
if i understand transformer right this should give us more ampage ...

WT ???
...more amperage than what?
...and then what?

.99

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 08, 2011, 09:02:08 PM

Quote from: poynt99 on January 08, 2011, 08:56:47 PM
WT ???
...more amperage than what?
...and then what?

.99

well with the jt we loose ampage for voltage i was just thinking that doing the step up then step down should give us tha ampage back after all this is what power stations do

maybe run the jt off a earth battery after the step up and step down we might have the voltage with userable current

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: poynt99 on January 08, 2011, 09:06:41 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on January 08, 2011, 09:02:08 PM
well with the jt we loose ampage for voltage i was just thinking that doing the step up then step down should give us tha ampage back after all this is what power stations do

maybe run the jt off a earth battery after the step up and step down we might have the voltage with userable current

Think it through more carefully. There's something not adding up there. ;)

.99

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 08, 2011, 09:08:08 PM

Quote from: poynt99 on January 08, 2011, 09:06:41 PM
Think it through more carefully. There's something not adding up there. ;)

.99

what the fact it takes current to start with?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: poynt99 on January 08, 2011, 09:12:15 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on January 08, 2011, 09:08:08 PM
what the fact it takes current to start with?

Check your transformer theory again.

With a step-up you increase the voltage, and decrease the current. The opposite is true when you step-down. So you are back to where you started (high voltage, low current), minus losses.

.99

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 08, 2011, 09:19:41 PM

Quote from: poynt99 on January 08, 2011, 09:12:15 PM
Check your transformer theory again.

With a step-up you increase the voltage, and decrease the current. The opposite is true when you step-down. So you are back to where you started (high voltage, low current), minus losses.

.99

not from what i read from what i read if you put 100 volts 100 ma into a transformer you can take 10 volts out at 10 amps or somthing was told the theory a long time ago so can not ecatly remember

i was reading part of it here http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/worksheets/trans1.html also here http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_9/2.html

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: poynt99 on January 08, 2011, 09:33:42 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on January 08, 2011, 09:19:41 PM

...from what i read if you put 100 volts 100 ma into a transformer you can take 10 volts out at 10 amps or somthing

It would be more like 10V and 1A out, not 10A, but that is essentially what I am saying as well. Go back and read my post again...carefully.

.99

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 08, 2011, 09:38:04 PM

Quote from: poynt99 on January 08, 2011, 09:33:42 PM
It would be more like 10V and 1A out, not 10A, but that is essentially what I am saying as well. Go back and read my post again...carefully.

.99

yes but that why you use a step down transformer after the step up one

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 08, 2011, 09:41:54 PM

Quote from: poynt99 on January 08, 2011, 09:33:42 PM
It would be more like 10V and 1A out, not 10A, but that is essentially what I am saying as well. Go back and read my post again...carefully.

.99

yeah thoght i was out on the numbers but was giving an example
but what we know of step down it that it will take the high voltage low current to low voltage but high current now we can mess with what we drop it down to so fit are needs not saying it will work but it is an idea when i get to cable modem psu i can test this

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 08, 2011, 10:06:22 PM

im just about to put an order in for some transister and i was just woundering what would be the best
the ideal ones would be work from very low voltage and use very little current

so far the choice is
2n2222
2n2222a
2n3904
bc549

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: bolt on January 08, 2011, 10:12:51 PM

Using conventional transformer technology you you lose about 3%. What you step up = step down watts minus losses

BUT with RF type coils centrally fed Tesla style when you step up you increase the Joules Potential. High voltage has a lot of kinetic energy. Its here you have OU which is why Tesla always stepped up to HV. The HV electrostatic field energizes more ambient electrons whose energy is added to the system. In so doing it undergoes energy transformation from electron volts to magnetic of higher order. Revisit Newman motor for basics! inductance converts to high VARS as standing waves converts to high magnetic field strength provides motor TORQUE. Power increase far beyond what a pack of pp3 batteries provide only needs a few mA's.

Where OU exists as RE = RLC under RF simile.

On the way back down requires magnetic coupled transformers NOT parallel coils sharing the same flux path nor even RF as EM transverse coupling. This is what Don Smith was doing but it appears and even admitted critical circuit aspects were missing to protect investors. SO replicators deal with it using conventional thinking and try to apply standard RF 1/4 wave principles to the coils = Crap results. Coupling needs to be magnetic only its 90 degrees off and backwards in all aspects of conventional theory.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on January 08, 2011, 11:00:27 PM

Guys:
I had at one time thought the same thing about a step up, and the step down transformer, for more current. Jeanna mentioned that she had tried it, and that she did not have much luck with it, as a bulb lit for a very short time, only. There still may be a way though...
Leds bulbs do like a certain amount of mA also to light all the way, on not just voltage. I think there are Jtc that do output more current, like my one inch toroid (shown) that uses a 76 - 76 turn primary, only.
The picture is of one of my Captret- Jtc that I'm working with now. Tonight it is lighting a dozen Leds so bright that I'll probably have to toss them in the trash like so many others that I've burnt out, due to the cap surges. I'm still unable to locate any pots to control the voltage going to the bulbs.
I've been trying to find a balance point so that the batteries which are now several days old (and only dropped a volt) will keep up with the load without going down, down, well, you know... With one led its a lot easier to do, than when adding a dozen or more.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on January 09, 2011, 05:42:44 AM

To NICKZ, from freepow

What we need to work towards, is a joulethief that self runs completely !

I have already started a small experiment on this and I managed to charge a cap up with a run battery,
and got the cap up to just over 500 mV while only taking off about 10-15 mV from the run battery.

I've also been able to swap mV back and forwards between the run battery and a supercap aswell.

Also I would like to mention that in one experiment I did, I actually started charging up a supercap,
from a run battery, and checking the cap and run battery with a DMM, and the run battery was actually
going up in small amounts while the supercap was charging up!

So we need a Joulethief that eventually runs itself.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: markdansie on January 09, 2011, 06:38:35 AM

@freepow
Thats a great result you have got woth the source battery and the cap increasing in voltage. How long di it manage to o that for?
Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on January 09, 2011, 06:54:02 AM

Hey!

I did it by using a rechargeable AA as run Battery powering the joulethief - which was lighting a LED dim, and at the same time charging a supercap 50F, then the supercap was feeding back to the run battery again, I'll have to try it again !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on January 09, 2011, 06:59:57 AM

@ Markdansie

I will post some results that I posted some pages back!

I think I may have come on to something, not sure yet, but my low draw joulethief has 1x AA rechareable
battery
for the run battery, and I have my 50F supercap for the charge cap, and I have it running back into the AA battery, my interesting results so far is this...

When I adjusted the Var-res at just the right spot, the results were strange...

RUN BATTERY SUPER-CAP

1.229v .910v
1.239v .920v
1.241v .925v

By adjusting my var-resistor to the spot with where LED lit at the lowest light level (still bright)

results so far over a short interval of time... RUN BATTERY SUPER-CAP

1.252v .805v
1.255v .804v
1.257v .803v

Then I adjusted the Var-res to the spot where the LED lit the brightest (very bright)

results so far over a short interval of time... RUN BATTERY SUPER-CAP

1.128v .870v

But now I have found the spot where this is happening...
1.238v 1.010v
1.238v 1.040v
1.238v 1.044v
1.238v 1.052v

I can literally charge either one up by simply adjusting the Var-res or charge both up at the same time !
I may be onto something, and the LED is lit bright or super bright while I am running this joulethief and charging at the same time.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: markdansie on January 09, 2011, 07:00:49 AM

Thanks freepow,
would be interesting to run it again...perhaps use a battery that was slightly down to begin with.
Many thanks
Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: markdansie on January 09, 2011, 07:10:37 AM

@freepower,
many thanks for posting the results again..saved some work here going back. What time frame were those results taken over?
Might I make a suggestion.....put a larger cap on and see how long it takes to charge that up an either maintain the batery voltage or have both charge up together. If you can achieve what you have already there is no reason it will not sustain itself.
Jut one other question...how long wa this able to run for maintaining the batery voltage, charging the cap and powering the led?
Definately worth investigating further.
Kind Regards
Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 09, 2011, 08:48:20 AM

Quote from: NickZ on January 08, 2011, 11:00:27 PM
Guys:
I had at one time thought the same thing about a step up, and the step down transformer, for more current. Jeanna mentioned that she had tried it, and that she did not have much luck with it, as a bulb lit for a very short time, only. There still may be a way though...
Leds bulbs do like a certain amount of mA also to light all the way, on not just voltage. I think there are Jtc that do output more current, like my one inch toroid (shown) that uses a 76 - 76 turn primary, only.
The picture is of one of my Captret- Jtc that I'm working with now. Tonight it is lighting a dozen Leds so bright that I'll probably have to toss them in the trash like so many others that I've burnt out, due to the cap surges. I'm still unable to locate any pots to control the voltage going to the bulbs.
I've been trying to find a balance point so that the batteries which are now several days old (and only dropped a volt) will keep up with the load without going down, down, well, you know... With one led its a lot easier to do, than when adding a dozen or more.

best way to control the voltage would be put a pick up coil on and find the amount of turns needed for the voltage you wont

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on January 09, 2011, 08:56:47 AM

All:
I already have the Captret- Joule Thief selfcharging, but only using one or two leds on it. If I add more leds like last night it was running on 12 leds very bright, it may not be able to keep up that many. This is what I'm working on now, since the draw has to equal the charging ability of the Captret part of the circuit, or it will run down.
I also have several other Jtc that are running and charging one or two AAs, off of a single AA, and I can also swap them back and forth. But the Captret-Jt was lighting the leds all week on the same batteries without discharging them by more than one volt. I still don't know if the Jt part is actually needed at all, as it may be that it is only hanging up the Captret circuit, or a custom made Jtc needs to be made just for that purpose, possibly with no resistor. More tests are needed, but so far I can say that my Captret-Jt will run without discharging, on one or two leds, for at least severals days. A small solar panel will take care of any further voltage drops, and bump up the charge when needed.
I'll upload some more pics, soon, but the one shown is of my tiny Bumble Bee Solar Jtc, still self running after 6 months.
NZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 09, 2011, 09:01:28 AM

Quote from: NickZ on January 09, 2011, 08:56:47 AM
All:
I already have the Captret- Joule Thief selfcharging, but only using one or two leds on it. If I add more leds like last night it was running on 12 leds very bright, it may not be able to keep up that many. This is what I'm working on now, since the draw has to equal the charging ability of the Captret part of the circuit, or it will run down.
I also have several other Jtc that are running and charging one or two AAs, off of a single AA, and I can also swap them back and forth. But the Captret-Jt was lighting the leds all week on the same batteries without discharging them by more than one volt. I still don't know if the Jt part is actually needed at all, as it may be that it is only hanging up the Captret circuit, or a custom made Jtc needs to be made just for that purpose, possibly with no resistor. More tests are needed, but so far I can say that my Captret-Jt will run without discharging, on one or two leds, for at least severals days. A small solar panel will take care of any further voltage drops, and bump up the charge when needed.
I'll upload some more pics, soon, but the one shown is of my tiny Bumble Bee Solar Jtc, still self running after 6 months.
NZ

yeah i understand the how to do it it is just working out how to get the current out of the jt to feed back into the source battery supercaps could be the way but the charge rate has to be far lower then the disharge rate so the jt can fill the caps befor they fully drop below the 2 volts needed to charge a 1.2 volt battery plus you need a diode between the caps and the battery to stop the battery charging the caps

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 09, 2011, 09:08:49 AM

if i remeber correctly jaenna tried a step down wall transformer on her highest voltage jt with poor results but i wounder if that is because of the compnonets in the transformer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 09, 2011, 09:10:35 AM

you might find nick a cap in parallel with for solar panel would be needed i know when i tried to run a jt off a solar panel i had to add a cap to make it work

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on January 09, 2011, 09:53:10 AM

Dasimpson:
The tiny solar Jt is running fine with no cap. But in order to charge a battery so the led can run at night, a cap may help to raise the voltage to charge a single AA. So far I still feel that way to keep a Jt self-running is with a small solar panel, and battery. Since once the small AAs lose start to lose their charge, nothing much is going on, frequency changes and there went the resonant effects. Yawn... like Osiris says.
I am now working on a new battery layout for the Captret-Jt that will make the metal cans of the batteries and capacitors work together like an antenna system. More on that soon...
NZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 09, 2011, 09:55:52 AM

all the cap dose in parrallel with the solar panel is give the jt the ampage it needs to perform better if you test the out put with and with out the cap you will find higher voltage with the cap there

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 09, 2011, 10:12:11 AM

this is strange last night i was working with my 20mm line filter from a psu with 20 leds in parallel and i was drawing 30ma
with my 25mm one i was pulling 40ma

well just tested again and well the 20mm one is runing at 60ma and the 25mm is running at 70 ma everything is exactly the same as last night but the current draw seems to have nearly doubled

any idea why?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on January 09, 2011, 10:36:15 AM

Dasimpson:
Using the right solar panel won't need the capacitor to bump up its low output. Current is Important, also. If you have the right panel even the Jt is not needed. But, I'm still interested in getting the Captret to light the leds for free, without needing anything else, like batteries.
Solar panels last forever, not so with the batteries or caps, the more they work the worse they get, and they are also very delicate to being constantly recharged or overcharged.
I think this may all be going towards the Joule Ringer technologies, which appears to use caps as if they were batteries. How it recharges or feeds itself back is key that will open that door.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 09, 2011, 10:44:24 AM

Quote from: NickZ on January 09, 2011, 10:36:15 AM
Dasimpson:
Using the right solar panel won't need the capacitor to bump up its low output. Current is Important, also. If you have the right panel even the Jt is not needed. But, I'm still interested in getting the Captret to light the leds for free, without needing anything else, like batteries.
Solar panels last forever, not so with the batteries or caps, the more they work the worse they get, and they are also very delicate to being constantly recharged or overcharged.
I think this may all be going towards the Joule Ringer technologies, which appears to use caps as if they were batteries. How it recharges or feeds itself back is key that will open that door.

the thing is a solar panel is ok but we have to have some way to store the power caps do seem the better way but they are so danm exspensive over batterys and dont have there capacity so until price drops were kind of stuck lol

and btw the solar panels dont last for ever the sun dose in the end destroy them

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on January 09, 2011, 11:12:48 AM

@ All:
Possibly what is needed is to make our own battery-capacitors that are to be used for our circuits, since buying them is expensive, and the technology does not seam very complicated. So why are they expensive??? We're getting had.
I was hoping the the TPU would provide some juice without batteries, but... I guess we're not there, yet. Solar panels are there, and are still cheaper than any other way to go, so far.
If the Captret or Joule Ringer system can be used with a small battery and solar panel set up, that seams like the way to go. As not all of us are able to replicate the Joule Ringer lighting the CFL on just caps, as LaserSabler has done. In anycase, he can't get it to work for over an hour, yet...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 09, 2011, 11:19:00 AM

Quote from: NickZ on January 09, 2011, 11:12:48 AM
@ All:
Possibly what is needed is to make our own battery-capacitors that are to be used for our circuits, since buying them is expensive, and the technology does not seam very complicated. So why are they expensive??? We're getting had.
I was hoping the the TPU would provide some juice without batteries, but... I guess we're not there, yet. Solar panels are there, and are still cheaper than any other way to go, so far.
If the Captret or Joule Ringer system can be used with a small battery and solar panel set up, that seams like the way to go. As not all of us are able to replicate the Joule Ringer lighting the CFL on just caps, as LaserSabler has done. In anycase, he can't get it to work for over an hour, yet...

i have been using a small solar panel to keep my expementing batterys charged for a long while just the waether isent upto doing that much now i am seeing about 1.1ma were i was seing 20 to 40 ma and when all panels hoked up anything from 10 ma to an amp but sun and waether dosent work to well so i tulk an old pc fan apart and made a turbine out of it that is enogth to keep the current up but not the voltage so i run to of them that seems to work good so far
the light in the small room was put in there for when the gf grandkids stay one of them is scared of the dark what i did was build a gt and light detection unit for the solar panel and just wired the tubine to the battery after the bdridge cap etc seems to do ok but i need to raise the turbine to my roof to get the wind of all directions

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 09, 2011, 12:46:17 PM

http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G18108&utm_source=Electronic+Goldmine+Newsletter&utm_campaign=e6711efc30-Jan7&utm_medium=email (http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G18108&utm_source=Electronic+Goldmine+Newsletter&utm_campaign=e6711efc30-Jan7&utm_medium=email)

1,300 Farad boostcap array for only $34.00 US. This is 16,250 Joules at 5 volts.

Wanted to point this out.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 09, 2011, 12:49:09 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 09, 2011, 12:46:17 PM
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G18108&utm_source=Electronic+Goldmine+Newsletter&utm_campaign=e6711efc30-Jan7&utm_medium=email (http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G18108&utm_source=Electronic+Goldmine+Newsletter&utm_campaign=e6711efc30-Jan7&utm_medium=email)

1,300 Farad boostcap array for only $34.00 US. This is 16,250 Joules at 5 volts.

Wanted to point this out.

Bill

as money stands here pirate thats still quite a bit of money it can take me a month to have the money for a pack of 10 transistors the money i have coming in only just covers the outgoings so most my parts are from salvage

but they do seem to be dropping in price and gaining in size as they do so

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tak22 on January 09, 2011, 12:58:09 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 09, 2011, 12:46:17 PM

1,300 Farad boostcap array for only $34.00 US. This is 16,250 Joules at 5 volts.

And here's what 16,250 joules is in other terms:

http://chuck-wright.com/calculators/watts.html (http://chuck-wright.com/calculators/watts.html)

tak

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 09, 2011, 01:01:30 PM

what we could do with is a calculator to convert farads to mah or ah i tried to find out the maths and the calculation for it but left me rather confused

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 10, 2011, 08:46:11 PM

Being we are speaking of Boost caps and not to dig up old graves (gadgets heater light AA powered ) but the actual point that i was trying to get across to PL . you know who . was that even though a battery and a bcaps might containg the same joules a battery cannot do what a b-cap does . as demonstrated in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoWMF3VkI6U&feature=player_embedded

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on January 10, 2011, 09:23:41 PM

@ ALL, Here is my recent experiment...

Run battery 1xAA rechargeable - running joulethief @12K - running LED dim - charging supercap 50F.

Test results : RUN BATTERY(while running JT) SUPERCAP
3:54 PM Mon AF/Noon Millivolts 1198 5.2 (empty)
4:28 PM 1181 572
5:04 PM 1187 627
5:31 PM 1189 650
5:46 PM 1190 660
5:54 PM 1190 664

joulethief Res changed back to 20K

5:55 PM 1191 667
6:10 PM 1192 672
6:46 PM 1193 687
6:57 PM 1193 690
7:28 PM 1194 701
8:01 PM 1196 710
8:12 PM 1196 711
8:24 PM 1196 714

8:26 PM joulethief Res changed back to 12K

8:29 PM 1196 715
8:46 PM 1196 719

8:49 PM joulethief Res changed back to 10K

9:19 PM 1196 727
9:29 PM 1195 730

9:29 PM joulethief Res changed back to 20K

9:35 PM 1196 731
9:48 PM 1197 735
10:09 PM 1197 737

7:41 AM TUE Morning 1200 792
8:36 AM 1200 795
9:55 AM 1200 801
12:40 PM Lunch 1201 810
1:20 PM 1200 811

I need to reduce RESISTANCE greater than 20k now, to stop run battery from decreasing a little, so I can either keep it at 1200 or increase it a little.

If you keep an eye in the run battery and charge cap, you can stop run battery from going down at the same time increasing charge cap !

0

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 10, 2011, 10:47:51 PM

Good work freepower . you remind me of me a few years back . I did the exact same thing.

gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on January 10, 2011, 11:20:25 PM

Thanks Gadgetmail...

Funny thing is this, I then used the charged cap and used it on the joulethief to light LED and it lit nice, so just for fun I short circuited the Cap to empty it, so I could see if it would charge up again on the same
rechargeable AA.

Run battery running joulethief - lighting LED - charging empty Cap gain

1:49 PM 1197 mV 42.7 mV (fairly empty)
1:53 PM 1142 mV 381 mV
2:01 PM 1161 mV 476 mV
2:10 PM 1169 mV 528 mV
2:28 PM 1175 mV 576 mV
3:02 PM 1179 mV 618 mV (charging up nicely)

It seems I can charge the cap up the second time and the same run battery in recovering again !

My circuit go's in a circle, run battery run's joulethief lighting LED charging up cap and cap go's back into run battery again and starts over again.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 11, 2011, 12:38:13 AM

YEs freepower exactly what i was doing . see the thread Second Stage Joule thiefs and you will see Ground loop actually made a circuit to keep the bcap charged up to its volts then run a load then drop its volts back into the AA run battery . I still have faith in it .

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on January 11, 2011, 01:36:26 AM

Hey gadgetmail are you the one who has cancer ? sorry for asking!

Why dont you keep on with this experiment further too ????
And lets make it happen !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on January 11, 2011, 05:39:52 PM

@ Gadgetmail

I thought of something...

1x AA = 2500 mA for 1 Hours use

1x Cap @ 650F = approx 3000 Amps.

Does'nt that mean 3000 Amps for 1 sec of use
and 3000/60/60 = .833 Amps for 1 Hour of use

Which means 1x AA has 2500 mA for 1 Hour
which means 1x cap has 833 mA for 1 Hour

????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 11, 2011, 05:45:35 PM

it could be m8 but my maths and understanding ant upto working that out i think the true way to know is my putting loads on them running them side by side to compare the battery to the cap to get best indication to how long they will last that way we will start to work out a mah rating for them ethern if it is just here it is ideal information to know

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 11, 2011, 06:12:25 PM

well thats my jt now running below 25ma
line filter out of a psu
bc337-25
5k resisters
4 super bright leds in parallel from a one of them sticky back lights that go under the worktops

now the longivity test if im right it should last for about 100 hours give or take

im not expecting it to run for 100 hours as to do that at 25ma draw it would have to run the battery to 0

only problem is there is a whining noise hopefully when the 2n3904 arrive they may be in a diffent hurts range that or i just have good hearing

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on January 11, 2011, 07:33:14 PM

Quote from: freepow on January 11, 2011, 05:39:52 PM
@ Gadgetmail

I thought of something...

1x AA = 2500 mA for 1 Hours use

1x Cap @ 650F = approx 3000 Amps.

Does'nt that mean 3000 Amps for 1 sec of use
and 3000/60/60 = .833 Amps for 1 Hour of use

Which means 1x AA has 2500 mA for 1 Hour
which means 1x cap has 833 mA for 1 Hour

????

Why the puzzlement? ENERGY is the important parameter for longevity, not "Amps" or mA-H.

The energy stored in a capacitor in Joules is given by (C * V * V)/2, where C is capacity in Farads and V is the voltage it's charged to. NOT the rated voltage of the cap, but the charge that is ACTUALLY on the capacitor.

The energy in a battery, if the battery's capacity is given in Amp-hours, is
(V * Capacity) = Watt-hours
Watt-hours * 60 * 60 = Watt-seconds or Joules.

So a 1.3 volt rechargeable battery of 2500 mA-H capacity has
1.3 * 2.5 * 60 * 60 = about 12000 Joules, assuming a relatively flat discharge curve.

And a 650 Farad supercapacitor charged to that same 1.3 volts has
650 * 1.3 * 1.3 * 0.5 = about 550 Joules.

The capacitor charged to the same voltage as the battery contains less than 1/20 the energy of the battery.

The capacitor has much lower internal resistance than the battery and so can deliver its ENERGY much faster: that is, in a pulse that has greater amperage. In fact the cap can deliver essentially ALL the stored energy in one very quick pulse. The battery, with an internal resistance of several tenths of an ohm, can't come close to the current delivery capability of a capacitor. But it takes a BIG capacitor to store anything like the total energy in a decent battery at the same voltage.

Note well: you get more "bang for your buck" by increasing the voltage on the capacitor. The energy on the cap goes up as the square of the voltage but only linearly with capacitance. Double the voltage, you get 4 times the energy, at a given capacitance. Double the capacitance and you only double the potential energy storage at a given voltage.

For your amusement:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cj5T0zRALKc

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 11, 2011, 09:36:02 PM

TK:

Thank you very much for that very detailed explanation. As most on here know, I love the caps but I also somehow knew that an AA had more "power" But, as you have stated so eloquently, it all depends upon what you are after. I have seen my supercaps charge up "right away" and run for a long time where a battery takes quite a while to do so.

Anyway, thanks again for keeping us based in real numbers and science.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on January 11, 2011, 10:24:23 PM

Hi Bill
Sure, to charge a battery properly you've got to supply it with current at the right voltage, not too much, not too little, and you can do things like pulse charge that can stuff more charge into it faster. A capacitor is more like a bucket; you can dump the charge into it really fast if you can supply the necessary current.
I like using small current at high voltage, multiple times, to build up a full charge at a high voltage on the cap, then draw that charge off at a lower voltage, to power whatever device.
And I like air core resonant coils because they don't have core losses and they have the fastest possible risetime response, which means that the induced voltages in the secondary will be higher for a given input current swing to the primary. The drawback to air core coils is the size, though.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on January 11, 2011, 11:43:01 PM

Hi everyone, i finally can get my jt running again.. :D its problem with my toroid winding afterall.. so i try connect my Earth battery with JT to run my fuji circuit.. but its not working.. i have order some supercaps but havent arrive yet.. so hope to get it soon..

so may i know what possibility that my JT couldnt make my fuji working? is it my voltage or current not enough? my earth battery voltage quite high but very low ampere.. will fuji run on low voltage?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 12, 2011, 04:20:21 AM

Quote from: kb24 on January 11, 2011, 11:43:01 PM
Hi everyone, i finally can get my jt running again.. :D its problem with my toroid winding afterall.. so i try connect my Earth battery with JT to run my fuji circuit.. but its not working.. i have order some supercaps but havent arrive yet.. so hope to get it soon..

so may i know what possibility that my JT couldnt make my fuji working? is it my voltage or current not enough? my earth battery voltage quite high but very low ampere.. will fuji run on low voltage?

I am no expert but, if your eb has exceeded 1.5 volts, which many of us have run the Fuji from, Then my guess would be your mA's are too low, or not flowing enough to keep up with the demand. So, this is where the b-caps or supercaps come in. In reality, if you looked at you eb's output on a scope, you might see the same high spikes that I have seen on mine. These spikes will charge a supercap...and pretty quickly too....then you can use this a real power to drive the Fuji...or whatever you want.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 12, 2011, 08:32:53 AM

ok this is strange i started a longivity test last night

starting voltage and current draw were

00:00 hours battery 1.27 volt current draw 22.1ma
10:00 hours battery 1.07 volt current draw 20.1ma
11:00 hours battery 0.66 volt current draw 12.2ma
12:00 hours battery 0.56 volt current draw 08.5ma
13:00 hours battery 0.55 volt current draw 08.2ma

the bit i dont undertand is why the current draw changes and why such a huge drop in voltage at 11:00 hours
the lights are still going maybe anogth to read with but i no longer see a ring of light on my celing looks like this circuit i made is also a wash out or well sill start over when my 2n3904 arrive i am trying to use parts that are commen found mainly the line filters in power supplys and other things that tend to run on ac voltage

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 12, 2011, 08:56:08 AM

ok think one of my problems might of been the batterys were not fully charged
just found that when they are fully charged they should read 1.4 - 1.45 open reading when fully charged
so ethier my batterys are naffed or 16 hours ant long enoth with my charger

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on January 12, 2011, 09:24:42 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 12, 2011, 04:20:21 AM
I am no expert but, if your eb has exceeded 1.5 volts, which many of us have run the Fuji from, Then my guess would be your mA's are too low, or not flowing enough to keep up with the demand. So, this is where the b-caps or supercaps come in. In reality, if you looked at you eb's output on a scope, you might see the same high spikes that I have seen on mine. These spikes will charge a supercap...and pretty quickly too....then you can use this a real power to drive the Fuji...or whatever you want.

Bill

So how am i supposed to charge the caps? do i have to manually charge the caps 1st before connect to my JT or i just connect the empty caps into my JT and it will charge on its own?

Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 12, 2011, 09:41:27 AM

Quote from: kb24 on January 12, 2011, 09:24:42 AM
So how am i supposed to charge the caps? do i have to manually charge the caps 1st before connect to my JT or i just connect the empty caps into my JT and it will charge on its own?

Thanks

you connect wires from the earth battery to the supercap then connect the joule thief to the super cap

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 12, 2011, 02:42:35 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on January 12, 2011, 09:41:27 AM
you connect wires from the earth battery to the supercap then connect the joule thief to the super cap

Exactly right.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 12, 2011, 09:04:54 PM

Quote from: TinselKoala on January 11, 2011, 07:33:14 PM
Why the puzzlement? ENERGY is the important parameter for longevity, not "Amps" or mA-H.

The energy stored in a capacitor in Joules is given by (C * V * V)/2, where C is capacity in Farads and V is the voltage it's charged to. NOT the rated voltage of the cap, but the charge that is ACTUALLY on the capacitor.

The energy in a battery, if the battery's capacity is given in Amp-hours, is
(V * Capacity) = Watt-hours
Watt-hours * 60 * 60 = Watt-seconds or Joules.

So a 1.3 volt rechargeable battery of 2500 mA-H capacity has
1.3 * 2.5 * 60 * 60 = about 12000 Joules, assuming a relatively flat discharge curve.

And a 650 Farad supercapacitor charged to that same 1.3 volts has
650 * 1.3 * 1.3 * 0.5 = about 550 Joules.

The capacitor charged to the same voltage as the battery contains less than 1/20 the energy of the battery.

The capacitor has much lower internal resistance than the battery and so can deliver its ENERGY much faster: that is, in a pulse that has greater amperage. In fact the cap can deliver essentially ALL the stored energy in one very quick pulse. The battery, with an internal resistance of several tenths of an ohm, can't come close to the current delivery capability of a capacitor. But it takes a BIG capacitor to store anything like the total energy in a decent battery at the same voltage.

Note well: you get more "bang for your buck" by increasing the voltage on the capacitor. The energy on the cap goes up as the square of the voltage but only linearly with capacitance. Double the voltage, you get 4 times the energy, at a given capacitance. Double the capacitance and you only double the potential energy storage at a given voltage.

For your amusement:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cj5T0zRALKc

Nice machine . More explanations on ultracaps verse battery s . Actually you cant discharge a large ultra cap "instantly" as demonstrated here . and if you try this with a battery it might explode . http://www.youtube.com/atch?v=EoWMF3VkI6U these actually do have more power compared to batteries with the SAME Volts. we are talking KILO Joules :) Batteries heat up from internal resistance thus limiting the power it produces and Ultras well are killers. I am broke but could not pass up 5200 farads(a pair of 2600farads in parallel) for 35 bucks . they still have plenty . BTW for those wondering what happens when you charge them up over there rated volts 650 f 2.7 volt caps to 3.9 volts they don't blow up just will eventually shorten the life .. The other thing that is not well understood (puzzelment)or recognized is that they take a very high current charger (constant current ) to charge but yet we can charge them with V-Spikes from earthbatteries or a jt with very little current faster than the calculations say . So by experiments done with them by some of us it's possible to charge them up with just electrostatic volts with virtually no current similar to experiments done with batteries that appear charged (fluffy charge) except ultras charged this way have the power to back them up and this is not conventional 101 electronics.bet a tesla could charge em up fast .

Albert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on January 13, 2011, 04:43:02 AM

I have charged my 50F cap on my Earth battery also, however it would not charge beyond what the Earth battery puts out, which is 0.95v.

My cap only charged to 0.951v over about 8 hours, why did it not charge up to the full 2.5v with all those spikes ????

I have a 400F 2.7v cap, I have not tried this as yet !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on January 13, 2011, 07:13:23 AM

Quote from: freepow on January 13, 2011, 04:43:02 AM
I have charged my 50F cap on my Earth battery also, however it would not charge beyond what the Earth battery puts out, which is 0.95v.

My cap only charged to 0.951v over about 8 hours, why did it not charge up to the full 2.5v with all those spikes ????

I have a 400F 2.7v cap, I have not tried this as yet !

Probably because there are negative spikes too and you need a diode in series there, to keep the charge on the capacitor. Also, if you are giving your cap spikes that are over its rated voltage, you may be damaging the dielectric and causing the cap to become "leaky". This means that you need to supply more current to offset the leakage, in order to reach a given voltage stored on the capacitor.

Even at the low voltages being discussed here, large caps can be dangerous. They can deliver enough _current_ into a short circuit that metals can melt and even weld together or spall off hot droplets that can hit your eyeballs. Safety glasses are recommended.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on January 13, 2011, 07:31:16 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on January 12, 2011, 09:04:54 PM
Nice machine . More explanations on ultracaps verse battery s . Actually you cant discharge a large ultra cap "instantly" as demonstrated here . and if you try this with a battery it might explode . http://www.youtube.com/atch?v=EoWMF3VkI6U these actually do have more power compared to batteries with the SAME Volts. we are talking KILO Joules :)

Do the math again please. 2 AA batteries in series, making three volts, have how many Joules? And a 5200 Farad ultracap at 2.5 volts has how many Joules? Yes, we are talking KILOJoules. The batteries beat the Ultracaps hands down and weigh less and cost less too. If it's energy storage you want, batteries are the way to go. Yes, the capacitor can deliver more INSTANTANEOUS POWER than the battery can, for the reasons you mention. But power is not energy, tra la.

QuoteBatteries heat up from internal resistance thus limiting the power it produces and Ultras well are killers. I am broke but could not pass up 5200 farads(a pair of 2600farads in parallel) for 35 bucks . they still have plenty . BTW for those wondering what happens when you charge them up over there rated volts 650 f 2.7 volt caps to 3.9 volts they don't blow up just will eventually shorten the life ..

You really should be careful. It all depends on HOW you charge and discharge the capacitors. I have blown up many capacitors in my time and I've nearly been killed doing it. Do not tell people that capacitors won't blow up, because if you are doing this kind of work, you will eventually blow up a capacitor and you do NOT want to be in the path of the debris or the fire.

QuoteThe other thing that is not well understood (puzzelment)or recognized is that they take a very high current charger (constant current ) to charge but yet we can charge them with V-Spikes from earthbatteries or a jt with very little current faster than the calculations say .

Let's see those calculations and evidence that you can actually beat the correct theoretical numbers. Please.

QuoteSo by experiments done with them by some of us it's possible to charge them up with just electrostatic volts with virtually no current similar to experiments done with batteries that appear charged (fluffy charge) except ultras charged this way have the power to back them up and this is not conventional 101 electronics.bet a tesla could charge em up fast .

Albert

I don't see anything unconventional about charging a capacitor with electrostatic "volts". My videos should show you that I am very competent in doing exactly this, and I am happy to deliver as much POWER from electrostatically charged capacitors as you need. "Just volts"..... I laugh.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fWasxYQZZw
You might want to check the sphere gap tables and see what kind of voltage is needed to jump a 200 mm gap between spheres. The machine in the above clip can jump 280 mm, nearly the full diameter of the disks (300 mm or so).
If I used larger capacity caps in the stacks there would be so much power in those sparks that they would be truly dangerous to life and equipment. There is only about 1200 picoFarads total capacitance there. You can't do this stuff with batteries.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kb24 on January 13, 2011, 09:45:26 AM

Hi everyone, is still any circuit that can boost up ampere? I now waiting for my capacitor to arrive to add into my joule thief.. but while waiting, i hope i can have other method to run my fuji circuit with my earth battery which has low ampere

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 13, 2011, 09:49:01 AM

Quote from: kb24 on January 13, 2011, 09:45:26 AM
Hi everyone, is still any circuit that can boost up ampere? I now waiting for my capacitor to arrive to add into my joule thief.. but while waiting, i hope i can have other method to run my fuji circuit with my earth battery which has low ampere

the best way to get ampage up is run the elecrodes north and south
i mean basicly copper wire a foot under the earth going north and say zinc coated wire south a foot under the earth the longer you can run the wire in each direction the more ampage you wil have

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 13, 2011, 02:07:12 PM

Quote from: TinselKoala on January 13, 2011, 07:13:23 AM
Probably because there are negative spikes too and you need a diode in series there, to keep the charge on the capacitor. Also, if you are giving your cap spikes that are over its rated voltage, you may be damaging the dielectric and causing the cap to become "leaky". This means that you need to supply more current to offset the leakage, in order to reach a given voltage stored on the capacitor.

Even at the low voltages being discussed here, large caps can be dangerous. They can deliver enough _current_ into a short circuit that metals can melt and even weld together or spall off hot droplets that can hit your eyeballs. Safety glasses are recommended.

I agree about the diode suggestion as it would make sense that if the cap has 2.7 volts and the EB has less, you would think the energy would flow back from the cap into the EB.

I think what may have happened in my case is that even though I measure 1.9 vdc out from the EB, and it has all of those very large spikes, it was able to fully charge the b-cap to 2.7 volts pretty fast because maybe my DMM was NOT measuring the vdc output of the EB correctly because it is a pulsed output.

In other words, in reality, if my eb was putting out less than the 2.7 volts the energy would have flowed the other way, and it didn't and I did not use a diode. This is the only explanation I can think of. Does this make sense?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 13, 2011, 02:10:37 PM

i would agree with you on this if the eb wasent putting out more voltage then the cap could hold it would discharge like a solar panel on a battery at night with the size of rods you have im sure this is what is going on

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 13, 2011, 02:07:12 PM
I agree about the diode suggestion as it would make sense that if the cap has 2.7 volts and the EB has less, you would think the energy would flow back from the cap into the EB.

I think what may have happened in my case is that even though I measure 1.9 vdc out from the EB, and it has all of those very large spikes, it was able to fully charge the b-cap to 2.7 volts pretty fast because maybe my DMM was NOT measuring the vdc output of the EB correctly because it is a pulsed output.

In other words, in reality, if my eb was putting out less than the 2.7 volts the energy would have flowed the other way, and it didn't and I did not use a diode. This is the only explanation I can think of. Does this make sense?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 13, 2011, 03:29:18 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 13, 2011, 02:07:12 PM
I agree about the diode suggestion as it would make sense that if the cap has 2.7 volts and the EB has less, you would think the energy would flow back from the cap into the EB.

Yup. That's it. The diode would stop the reverse flow back into the EB.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 13, 2011, 03:41:15 PM

Quote from: MrMag on January 13, 2011, 03:29:18 PM
Yup. That's it. The diode would stop the reverse flow back into the EB.

but in using a diode you also loose voltage to charge the cap with

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 13, 2011, 03:48:01 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on January 13, 2011, 03:41:15 PM
but in using a diode you also loose voltage to charge the cap with

How's that?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 13, 2011, 03:49:19 PM

Quote from: MrMag on January 13, 2011, 03:48:01 PM
How's that?

because diodes have a forwed voltage drop

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 13, 2011, 04:39:09 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on January 13, 2011, 03:49:19 PM
because diodes have a forwed voltage drop

Maybe, but aren't you charging the cap with the spikes. I don't think it would bother it. I've never worried about the forward voltage drop. If you think about it, every device and even wire itself does have some resistance that would cause a voltage drop. So, if you want to get the most out of your EB, you would also want to make sure that all your connections are as short as possible and soldered. You probably loose more voltage on the wire from your EB and the connections then you do with the diode. I think the advantages overcome the minimal voltage loss. However, I've never tried it myself, so I could be wrong.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 13, 2011, 04:42:20 PM

Quote from: MrMag on January 13, 2011, 04:39:09 PM
Maybe, but aren't you charging the cap with the spikes. I don't think it would bother it. I've never worried about the forward voltage drop. If you think about it, every device and even wire itself does have some resistance that would cause a voltage drop. So, if you want to get the most out of your EB, you would also want to make sure that all your connections are as short as possible and soldered. You probably loose more voltage on the wire from your EB and the connections then you do with the diode. I think the advantages overcome the minimal voltage loss. However, I've never tried it myself, so I could be wrong.

yes but when your only getting .80 volts and voltage drop can be 0.7 it soon makes a difference plus the fast of current drop on a diode also i guess if you used 1n914 diodes you wold be better off but yeah i do agree a diode is needed just a matter of finding the lowest voltage drop diode you can get

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 13, 2011, 05:13:12 PM

Hey, what about using an LED? What is the voltage drop on that? Even if it does not light up...who cares? It is still a diode after all right? Just a thought, I have not tried this and have no idea if it is useful or not.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 13, 2011, 05:14:33 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 13, 2011, 05:13:12 PM
Hey, what about using an LED? What is the voltage drop on that? Even if it does not light up...who cares? It is still a diode after all right? Just a thought, I have not tried this and have no idea if it is useful or not.

Bill

i think the ability of reverse voltage and current comes into play

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 13, 2011, 05:16:07 PM

just look up on specs for forwed voltage drop what the reverse current is that can be handled i thin the 1n914 should do the job well if i remeber right they have a very low voltage drop
but if how you do it now works for you why change it

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 13, 2011, 05:16:45 PM

I have to admit that I do not know anything about that. Can you explain it? As I have always said, I am still, and always, learning.

Thanks,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 13, 2011, 05:18:25 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 13, 2011, 05:16:45 PM
I have to admit that I do not know anything about that. Can you explain it? As I have always said, I am still, and always, learning.

Thanks,

Bill

what part the forwed voltage or the reverse blocking voltage and current

wish the bit of garden i have wasent on the main road or i be planting a few earth battery poles lol might just have to do what jeanna did and use some plant pots

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diode here can explain way more then what i could

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 13, 2011, 05:25:14 PM

the only way i could explain is they are like a one way water valve they let the water travel in one direction the forwed voltage would be say the pressuer it tulk to allow the water thru the reverse voltage would be the back presure on the valve befor it starts to leak

the reverse current would be like what is used to hold the water back low reverse current would be like holding a gallon of water back with a peace of paper as the reverse current raiting is higher the thicker the material holding the water back hence been able to stop more current

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 13, 2011, 05:28:12 PM

a zener diode would be like a dam
holding back the water until the required lvl has been reached

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 13, 2011, 05:33:52 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on January 13, 2011, 05:28:12 PM
a zener diode would be like a dam
holding back the water until the required lvl has been reached

Thank you for the explanations and the link. I think I see it now.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 13, 2011, 05:38:30 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 13, 2011, 05:33:52 PM
Thank you for the explanations and the link. I think I see it now.

Bill

it would be best to use one so not to discharge the cap were you dont wont it to but unless you find a very low forwed voltage drop diode you will suffer on what voltage your cap will be charged to you could use a zener diode and a load to stop over charge
also a diode is used with solar panels to stop discharge into the panel at night they are also what are in bridge rectifires to change ac voltage to dc voltage

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on January 13, 2011, 06:51:49 PM

Yup, you're all on the right track re the diode in a cap charging circuit. The most common diodes with low forward voltage drop are the germanium 1n34 and 1n60. The 1n60 has a bit higher reverse voltage standoff. If you are charging with HV spikes like come off an Ainslie circuit (or anything with a collapsing field from a high inductance) you can get spikes in the hundreds of volts very easily, so using a fast HV silicon diode like the MUR1100E is better, even though it has a higher forward voltage.
But for earth batteries or using the Earth's own field, I'd try the germaniums first. Regardless, you should be able to charge the capacitor to very nearly the peak voltage in your spikes, or to the average voltage of your EB, using the appropriate diode in the circuit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 13, 2011, 10:23:17 PM

hey tinsel, i'm glad you are back. there are some discrepancies in your posts in the ainslie thread that you still have not reconciled... and there is that mea culpa you owe regarding the mosfet performance. don't think i have forgot, or that i will... ::)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: spinn_MP on January 14, 2011, 05:41:29 AM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on January 13, 2011, 10:23:17 PM
hey tinsel, i'm glad you are back. there are some discrepancies in your posts in the ainslie thread that you still have not reconciled... and there is that mea culpa you owe regarding the mosfet performance. don't think i have forgot, or that i will... ::)

Rotfl! Which mosfet performance do you have in mind?

Yep, don't think i have forgot, or that I will....
Silly.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 14, 2011, 10:49:29 PM

@TinsleKola . No i didnt mean caps wont blow up . I was a Tv service man for 20 years back when tube sets contained paper caps . I have seen a lot of cap snaps and bangs !! and you are right . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCPXckfT-6g&feature=player_detailpage .and a few more http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jDsNe_bmtE&NR=1&feature=fvwp http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PQMMu0oMnM&NR=1 Dont Do what i do or say because there will always be someone to say different and you are not me and just because My Ultra Battery caps dont blow up because i pump a few more volts over there rated 2.7volts dosnt mean your wont pop the release plug on the side of them and it might shoot your eye out . .Also the older caps didnt have release valves and they did explode so . I am Lucky . They call me Lucky Legs ;)

Lucky they dont break off and poke me in the ass :)

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on January 15, 2011, 12:09:49 AM

i had a 650 farad bolw on me once.. i didn't get to see the volt it took.. it also took out my ipod and a radio in the same room..
but i bought a box o junk off craiglist last year .. 200 pounds of electronics.. good find..
it had a 1500 farad cap in it.. so i thought it was testing time again..
it took 50 volts to blow the cap.. it heated up for 2 mins before it went..
if i knew it would not took out my camera it would be on utube..
they have very large magnetic fields while they blow.. very large..!!
and the plug on the side didn't give either.. it just blew..
so if it gets warm to touch just kill the power.. lol
so be carefull..

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Doug1 on January 15, 2011, 07:29:22 AM

Bill
Try running the EB through a mini Cockcroftâ€"Walton generator. Disconnect it when there is a threat of lightning storms.
If you look at the design of one long enough it might begin to look like a unfolded TPU. Or at least what I think a TPU is. You could even incorperate some of the design princeables into a EB and nobody would be the wiser.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on January 15, 2011, 01:48:30 PM

Hello All,

Looks like everyone is busy working on things :) I have made a new Jule thief that seems to amplify current more then voltage. I get around 10 volts but shorted its about 60 mA I am only putting 92 mA into the JT with no fine tuning as of yet. I have lots of different designs but this one is the first one I used to test the theory.

I am sure someone else has already tried this but I wanted to post my independent results. The key is you need a weaker toroid that will allow the magnetized field to pass into the stronger one. Seems to work?

Any ideas?

Thanks!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 18, 2011, 12:53:34 PM

Hi Altrez . Long Time no see .

If anyone is intrested in Ultracaps you need to see this . they are 34 dollars a pair from goldmine (black ones) and 2600 farads each 2.5 volts 20 you get a 5 volt pack. Compare to a small 650 farads and the larger 1500 farads these are monsters!

Albert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on January 18, 2011, 02:07:13 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on January 18, 2011, 12:53:34 PM
Hi Altrez . Long Time no see .

If anyone is intrested in Ultracaps you need to see this . they are 35 dollars a pair from goldmine (black ones) and 2600 farads each 2.5 volts . Compare to a small 650 farads and the larger 1500 farads these are monsters!

Albert

Hello gadget,

How are you doing? I hope you are your Daughter are doing well. That is a great deal for the caps I am going to grab some. Do they sell the smaller ones as well?

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on January 18, 2011, 02:47:15 PM

Hi Altrez . Thanks for asking . She is great ! ME not so great but i am wishing and trying to wake up each day .I am sure they have different ones however this is the biggest Ultra capacitor they Have and sell them in pairs . For 35 dollars you get one extra bar and the caps are paralleled for 5200farad at 2.5 v (2X2600=5200farads)farads . this is a dollar cheaper with one bar and in series for 5 volts at 2600 farads (2x2600/2=2600f)
Get em while they have them as this is the best price i have ever seen(34US) . It took me 2.5 minuits (150seconds)to charge them up with a Vector 10.20.30.amp smart charger . you need a GOOD Charger for these pereferable constant current as it will fry most chargers .These will run a lot of JT's for a LONG LONG time charged . 6 of these and you can crank a tank up or your car on a cold winter morning. and the price is comparable to a good high energy car battery and they should last a life time of charge / Discharges compared to car batteries only last 4-6 years .

Albert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 18, 2011, 02:54:51 PM

I always wondered why you always hear Doctor say in the movies

" we are doing the best we can sir " Always the same formulation ...

subconscious maybe , then it became we are doing the best we Cancer .

The rest is history

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on January 18, 2011, 06:49:58 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on January 18, 2011, 02:47:15 PM
Hi Altrez . Thanks for asking . She is great ! ME not so great but i am wishing and trying to wake up each day .I am sure they have different ones however this is the biggest Ultra capacitor they Have and sell them in pairs . For 36 dollars you get one extra bar and the caps are paralleled for 5200farad at 2.5 v (2X2600=5200farads)farads . this is a dollar cheaper with one bar and in series for 5 volts at 2600 farads (2x2600/2=2600f)
Get em while they have them as this is the best price i have ever seen . It took me 2.5 minuits (150seconds)to charge them up with a Vector 10.20.30.amp smart charger . you need a GOOD Charger for these pereferable constant current as it will fry most chargers .These will run a lot of JT's for a LONG LONG time charged . 6 of these and you can crank a tank up or your car on a cold winter morning. and the price is comparable to a good high energy car battery and they should last a life time of charge / Discharges compared to car batteries only last 4-6 years .

Albert

Hang in there buddy I am praying for you!

-Altrez

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 18, 2011, 07:09:00 PM

Same here Al.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 19, 2011, 06:51:33 PM

IST:

Any more crap, hateful and ignorant posts like the last one will be removed like the last one. We are NOT going through this again. I have no idea what you problem is but, it is not happening ok?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on January 20, 2011, 06:00:01 AM

@ All

I am making a Solar Panel... 3 volts @ 7.2 Amps, and I will be charging a supercap with it and as soon as it is charged up, then I'll switch the solar charger off, Do I need a Diode ????

I bought 2x Diodes rated at 6 Amps each , will these work ????
Do I hook then up in parallel ????

How much voltage drop will there be from the 3 volt Solar panel with the 2x Diodes ????

Or if I change the Solar panel to 2.5v output, can I quickly charge cap and soon as cap reaches 2.5v then switch Solar charger off, will I need a Diode ????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on January 20, 2011, 08:15:21 AM

Quote from: freepow on January 20, 2011, 06:00:01 AM
@ All

I am making a Solar Panel... 3 volts @ 7.2 Amps, and I will be charging a supercap with it and as soon as it is charged up, then I'll switch the solar charger off, Do I need a Diode ????

I bought 2x Diodes rated at 6 Amps each , will these work ????
Do I hook then up in parallel ????

How much voltage drop will there be from the 3 volt Solar panel with the 2x Diodes ????

Or if I change the Solar panel to 2.5v output, can I quickly charge cap and soon as cap reaches 2.5v then switch Solar charger off, will I need a Diode ????

Hi FreePow,
A diode has a 'forward voltage drop' across it's junction, approx 0.7 volts for a silicon diode. A Schottky diode is slightly less at approx 0.2 volts so deduct the drop from you solar panel voltage ( 3V - 0.7V = 2.3v) Diodes are similar to a one way switch to a DC voltage. When the anode is positive with respect to the cathode the diode conducts and is said to be forward biased. However when the cathose is positive with respect to the anode the diode will not conduct, hence as light falls onto your solar panel a current will flow through the diode and charge your cap. During darkness the panel does not give an output of course so the diode prevents back feeding the charged cap into the panel. Connect both diodes in parallel the forward voltage drop will be slightly lower. Schottky diodes are a better choice with such a low solar output.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 20, 2011, 01:02:03 PM

Osiris:

As you can see, I removed another post of yours for name calling, inaccurate information and just general meanness. If you feel the need to continue this I will ask that you be placed on read only once again.

This is NOT happening.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: osiris on January 20, 2011, 01:19:02 PM

Post removed by moderator.

IST, osiris, or whatever.....I have sent a request to Admin to place you on read only. No one has ripped of your work. Your bad attitude and name calling has no place here.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on January 20, 2011, 03:16:58 PM

Quote from: osiris on January 20, 2011, 01:19:02 PM
im sorry you and gadget feel the need to rip off kids ...

that is so sad it proves how foolish you all are ..

see revenge is a meal best eaten COLD

0

im sorry you feel the need to rip off others work and call it your own ...

that is so sad it proves how foolish you are ..

see revenge is a meal best eaten COLD

(I was hoping you wouldn't be back to your old self so soon)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 20, 2011, 07:29:48 PM

Quote from: MrMag on January 20, 2011, 03:16:58 PM
im sorry you feel the need to rip off others work and call it your own ...

that is so sad it proves how foolish you are ..

see revenge is a meal best eaten COLD

(I was hoping you wouldn't be back to your old self so soon)

Osiris has been placed on read only....again.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on January 20, 2011, 09:39:53 PM

Quote from: freepow on January 20, 2011, 06:00:01 AM
@ All

I am making a Solar Panel... 3 volts @ 7.2 Amps, and I will be charging a supercap with it and as soon as it is charged up, then I'll switch the solar charger off, Do I need a Diode ????

I bought 2x Diodes rated at 6 Amps each , will these work ????
Do I hook then up in parallel ????

How much voltage drop will there be from the 3 volt Solar panel with the 2x Diodes ????

Or if I change the Solar panel to 2.5v output, can I quickly charge cap and soon as cap reaches 2.5v then switch Solar charger off, will I need a Diode ????

A diode will prevent voltage leak-off to ground during darkness or when the charger is off, so, "Yes", a diode is a good idea. If the two diodes are in series, they'll be okay except for possible transient spikes. Three might be better against those spikes.
Was that what you were driving at? Better yet, can you post a diagram, at least in keyboard ascii, of what you're doing?

--Lee

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on January 21, 2011, 01:43:26 AM

Hello, I have a diagram of the panel I have nearly finished,
It consists of 2 rows of 5 cells each, each cell suppose to be 0.5v @ 3.6 Amps, however I am getting 2.7-2.8v
@ 8-9 Amps, better than I expected !

Should I have a one way Diode from the solar panel to the SuperCap ????

I do have 2x Diodes rated at 6 Amps each, strangely these Diodes only seems to drop the voltage by about
.15v each, how should I wire them ????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on January 21, 2011, 04:49:09 AM

Quote from: freepow on January 21, 2011, 01:43:26 AM
Hello, I have a diagram of the panel I have nearly finished,
It consists of 2 rows of 5 cells each, each cell suppose to be 0.5v @ 3.6 Amps, however I am getting 2.7-2.8v
@ 8-9 Amps, better than I expected !

Should I have a one way Diode from the solar panel to the SuperCap ????

I do have 2x Diodes rated at 6 Amps each, strangely these Diodes only seems to drop the voltage by about
.15v each, how should I wire them ????

Hi freepow, did you read my reply 14739? a few posts back. Your diodes will be schottky types so place them in parallel. I would prefer to use a transient suppressor or a zener diode for spikes if you feel you have a problem. If you series connect the diodes then the forward drop of each is added together so three in series = 0.45volts. This drop will reduce your cap charge voltage.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: wings on January 21, 2011, 05:32:14 AM

Jean-Michel Cour 2005
http://www.google.it/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CCAQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fvicarnik.com%2Ftext_html%2FFree%2520Energy%2520Generation%2520Circuits%2520%26%2520Schematics.pdf&rct=j&q=TUNECHARGER%20diagram&ei=GmA5TeuzEZGVOqWn6fQK&usg=AFQjCNFjCwOSNRNWx-CheucD4OjC2ISWYg&cad=rja
http://www.tunecharger.com/en/index.html
http://www.elektor.fr/magazines/2008/septembre/tunecharger.646088.lynkx

Bedini
http://www.r-charge.com/Solar.html
http://www.teslachargers.com/products.html#s10a

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 21, 2011, 06:05:23 AM

is 6 amp the forwed current of the diode ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on January 21, 2011, 01:15:03 PM

Quote from: freepow on January 21, 2011, 01:43:26 AM
...Should I have a one way Diode from the solar panel to the SuperCap ????

I do have 2x Diodes rated at 6 Amps each, strangely these Diodes only seems to drop the voltage by about
.15v each, how should I wire them ????

Solar
Panel
|
|
+->|--+
|
GRND or ungrounded chassis

That's how I would wire the diode(s).
Voltage drop is eliminated when the sun goes down or the panel is otherwise disconnected. When connected, the diode/panel combo have continuity.

--Lee

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 24, 2011, 06:58:54 PM

this is off topic but i need help with i have a laptop wont run windows dont ask on it way out i think but it will run ubuntu my problem is the new ubuntu 10.10 dosent like the wireless cars the ipn2220 i just wonted to ask if any one had tried the os with this wireless card and if they have and got it working could they pls help me ty

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 25, 2011, 02:50:14 PM

never mind sorted it

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on January 25, 2011, 08:56:02 PM

@ Pirate and All:
I was looking at some led lights on the internet and came across this Solar Powered Christmas Lights set, for only $8 bucks with 24 flat top leds. I can't imagine how they can make any money at those prices. Anyways, by the time we figure out how to build the best Joule Thief, China will probably be selling them 3 for a buck, like the camara circuit boards at $1.49.
NickZ

http://www.amazon.com/Solar-Powered-Christmas-Lights-String/dp/B004FTDG0I/ref=sr_1_205?s=lamps-light&ie=UTF8&qid=1296005854&sr=1-205

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 25, 2011, 11:01:45 PM

Nick:

That is a good find! Heck, the solar panel might cost near that alone.

Well done.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 26, 2011, 07:54:27 PM

i have just been playing with some axial inductors insted of the toroid seems to work very well.
i had 4 leds at full brightness on 1ma draw that was until i went to make the unit perminat and put to much heat on the inducters upps.
any how some more are on order varying uh and hopefully this would be a good way to go as we know exactly the uh of the coil and have more control over the hurtz range.
just need to work out internal resistance of batterys hopeing a cap in parallel with the battery will bring this to a set amount.
i was thinking if we use the axial inductors we wont have wine at lower hurtz range and so can lower it but still above the lvl the eye can see and hopefully bring the current draw down further i guess the other thing is bring the voltage down also but that always depends on how well the transistor performs i think my record is 0.35 volt 1ma but that is with axial inductors have one at moment but the inductors are to low of uh to work well so the current draw is 150ma but work well for a bright tourch not concerned about length of run time with this perticaler tourch so works well.

the leds were in series btw with a cap and diode i was getting 30 volts into a 10uf 50volt cap

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 27, 2011, 01:58:54 AM

Quote from: dasimpson on January 24, 2011, 06:58:54 PM
this is off topic but i need help with i have a laptop wont run windows dont ask on it way out i think but it will run ubuntu my problem is the new ubuntu 10.10 dosent like the wireless cars the ipn2220 i just wonted to ask if any one had tried the os with this wireless card and if they have and got it working could they pls help me ty

you might want to look at browserlinux, small, fast and has good support for wifi.
http://www.browserlinux.com

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 27, 2011, 08:18:31 AM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on January 27, 2011, 01:58:54 AM
you might want to look at browserlinux, small, fast and has good support for wifi.
http://www.browserlinux.com (http://www.browserlinux.com/)

cheers ill take alook at that

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on January 27, 2011, 01:31:38 PM

jouly thief info...
http://narod.ru/disk/2745542001/JouleRinger.zip.html
http://otv-ka.narod.ru/PUB/URLtable.htm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on January 28, 2011, 10:07:43 AM

SO, it's been a while since I posted here, and about a thousand posts I don't feel like reading.

I noticed someone made a jule ringer - looking at the design, it seems to have nothing to do with a bell, but it's lighting a CFL with a capacitor. Looks like designs are improving.

I've considered the following design ideas to be most pertinent:
:: use of a CCFL ( Cold Cathode Compact Florescent ) tube, either in twist form or in straight tube; these can be acquired from otherwise defunct scanners or the hardware store; NOTE, these types of CFL's bulbs are dimmable and can be used in three-way lights.
:: Lowest possible current consumption
:: The higher the frequency, the more agitation that will occur inside the tubes, the more light is produced with less current.
:: Source voltage is irrelevant considering the number voltage sources available, ...

With two D or C sized batteries, I estimate I could get an astonishing amount of light for a long period of time.

So, has anyone bothered to purchase on of the 1 watt giant LED's? ... I have been seeing more of these available at walmart lately as dimmable CCFL's and screw in LED spot lights ... i have one in my desk lamp now and it produces a very night tone of light without and unusual oscillations.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on January 28, 2011, 06:41:32 PM

Hi everyone keep the faith , the world you think you know was a fraud , but the fun is over 800 will soon fail form all over the world they will be removed from power very soon ... including some worlds favorite slayer .

God i love this planet !

Jack said free my children !

Stay away from the smell of fresh cut grass smell ,and low flying planes .

They think if they can't have us no one will !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on January 31, 2011, 04:25:58 AM

@ MK1, what do you mean ????

@ All, I have just put my Solar panel and frame up outside, running with a 14 meter (15Amp) cable.

However when connected to DMM or analogue meter, it reads about 5 Amps through the 14 meter cable,
but if I dont use the long 14 meter cable... I get 9-10 Amps, why am I loosing 4-5 Amps through the cable ?????
Oh, the volts are at about 2.5-2.6 with short or long cable.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on January 31, 2011, 07:00:55 AM

Hi folks, Hi mk1, i know exactly what you are speaking about.
Power to humanity.
peace love light
Tyson ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on January 31, 2011, 08:11:57 AM

Quote from: freepow on January 31, 2011, 04:25:58 AM
@ MK1, what do you mean ??? ?

@ All, I have just put my Solar panel and frame up outside, running with a 14 meter (15Amp) cable.

However when connected to DMM or analogue meter, it reads about 5 Amps through the 14 meter cable,
but if I dont use the long 14 meter cable... I get 9-10 Amps, why am I loosing 4-5 Amps through the cable ??? ??
Oh, the volts are at about 2.5-2.6 with short or long cable.

you loose amps because dc voltage dosent travel very far and the resistance of the cable

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on February 01, 2011, 01:53:43 PM

Quote from: freepow on January 31, 2011, 04:25:58 AM
@ MK1, what do you mean ????

@ All, I have just put my Solar panel and frame up outside, running with a 14 meter (15Amp) cable.

However when connected to DMM or analogue meter, it reads about 5 Amps through the 14 meter cable,
but if I dont use the long 14 meter cable... I get 9-10 Amps, why am I loosing 4-5 Amps through the cable ?????
Oh, the volts are at about 2.5-2.6 with short or long cable.

Your cable has a specific resistance per metre as already mentioned. The longer the cable length the greater the resistance , similar to adding resistors in series. Resistance restricts the flow of electrical current. Is your cable solid core or multi stranded?... a conductor has what's known as the 'skin effect' where the current passes along the outer or skin of the conductor. You could try a multi stranded cable of sufficient amperage and diameter to reduce the losses. Multi stranded cable has many conductors and effectively they are all in parallel, combining resistors in parallel reduces resistance ( Basic Ohm's) also make sure all you connections are good. Hope this helps. Regards

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 01, 2011, 10:38:08 PM

Money is going down this week apparently . New treasury Money , and Dinar for Oil .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on February 04, 2011, 05:55:35 AM

i was woundering could a zener diode and a relay be used as a simple charge controller

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on February 06, 2011, 01:01:07 AM

Quote from: dasimpson on February 04, 2011, 05:55:35 AM
i was woundering could a zener diode and a relay be used as a simple charge controller

\

Dasimpson

It should be possible to use a zener diode as a switch to control the voltage.
Personally I do not like relays ,they are noisy and not very reliable.

Here is a circuit I started a while back......it is not perfected yet......but I have did some basic tests.
I use a LED where you may want to use a zener diode.
I chose a LED because I wanted a charge indicator light.
A LED switches on pretty slowly as the LED gets brighter.
Like a zener a LED will pass very little voltage below a certian voltage.

The schematic is a little confusing.
It is intended on showing just the voltage control part of the circuit.......but the battery at the top should also be used to drive the JT that is charging the U Cap.

The U cap is shown with dots ( terminals ) on its ends.........the rectified output of the charger would be connected at these points.

The coil shown in the drawing is not for charging the U cap.......it is an extra winding added to the JT.
I am sure you have tried many windings that prevented the JT from working......that is how this coil works........ before the transistor turns on the coil has very high impedance and does not really effect the circuit much......as the transistor starts conducting this coils impedance drops, in effect sucking the power away from the normal secondary........this power is then fed back to source.

From my experience the white LEDs I have start conducting at just under 2V.........the variable resistor there to allow adjustment of the final cut off voltage......

I like this circuit because it is simple .......it gives me an indicator light and it is completely passive until the U cap is mostly charged

I hope that this helps

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on February 06, 2011, 01:29:25 PM

Gary:
I'm wondering if by placing any Led between the C and E of any of theses JT type circuits as an indicator light etz...can limit the amount of juice that can flow through the whole system? Thus limiting the circuit to the usable voltage and current of that led diode, to some degree, even if there is a secondary. Isn't it better to have less restrictions, like no resistors, diodes, pots, leds, etz.. but control the voltage by lowering it, so they are not needed? As they may all be consuming part of the tiny output current and dropping the efficiency of the circuits as well as the brightness of the light.
NZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on February 06, 2011, 04:25:39 PM

Quote from: NickZ on February 06, 2011, 01:29:25 PM
Gary:
I'm wondering if by placing any Led between the C and E of any of theses JT type circuits as an indicator light etz...can limit the amount of juice that can flow through the whole system? Thus limiting the circuit to the usable voltage and current of that led diode, to some degree, even if there is a secondary. Isn't it better to have less restrictions, like no resistors, diodes, pots, leds, etz.. but control the voltage by lowering it, so they are not needed? As they may all be consuming part of the tiny output current and dropping the efficiency of the circuits as well as the brightness of the light.
NZ

Nick

No I don't think that will work.

With my voltage control circuit the LED is working in a pure DC environment . I have tested it and white LEDs light up dimly starting at about 2V
The situation between the C a d E is very different .......It is strongly pulsing .......If the JT is running you should be able to light a LED between the C and E with very little indicated voltage.
It would not be uncommon to light a LED with only half a volt indicated by a DMM

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on February 06, 2011, 09:26:10 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on February 06, 2011, 01:01:07 AM

Dasimpson

It should be possible to use a zener diode as a switch to control the voltage.
Personally I do not like relays ,they are noisy and not very reliable.

Here is a circuit I started a while back......it is not perfected yet......but I have did some basic tests.
I use a LED where you may want to use a zener diode.
I chose a LED because I wanted a charge indicator light.
A LED switches on pretty slowly as the LED gets brighter.
Like a zener a LED will pass very little voltage below a certian voltage.

The schematic is a little confusing.
It is intended on showing just the voltage control part of the circuit.......but the battery at the top should also be used to drive the JT that is charging the U Cap.

The U cap is shown with dots ( terminals ) on its ends.........the rectified output of the charger would be connected at these points.

The coil shown in the drawing is not for charging the U cap.......it is an extra winding added to the JT.
I am sure you have tried many windings that prevented the JT from working......that is how this coil works........ before the transistor turns on the coil has very high impedance and does not really effect the circuit much......as the transistor starts conducting this coils impedance drops, in effect sucking the power away from the normal secondary........this power is then fed back to source.

From my experience the white LEDs I have start conducting at just under 2V.........the variable resistor there to allow adjustment of the final cut off voltage......

I like this circuit because it is simple .......it gives me an indicator light and it is completely passive until the U cap is mostly charged

I hope that this helps

gary

i was thinking of a double terminal relay then i could also have a light indicator for charge but i guess a transistor and led would work i will have to have a play see what i find ty for that

the idea was to use with solar panels,hydro,wind or just hand crank a way to tell if the bettary is charged
but as you pointed out a relay at low voltage may not work so maybe swap that for a transistor?

ok im lost on how i would wire it so that when the voltage is reached (charge) how it would shut off the supply

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on February 06, 2011, 09:32:03 PM

@ Gary:
Thanks for your reply. What I was referring to is:
doesn't placing an led into the primary part of an Jtc restrict the amount of power that the whole circuit would otherwise be able to output? As the led may also act like a resistor, not allowing more current to pass through it, and will blink off. I'm not talking about current or voltage control, but instead, trying to maximized the output.
When connecting a multi cap Captret to the Jtc, any resistance will affect it in a negative way, and so, I usually have to remove the resistor, trim pot, etz. in order to try unblock any unnecessary resistance.
I'm still trying to devise a way for the Jt to self-run by using a Captret as a source. But it seams that the Captret-Jtc is still discharging the two or three 9 volt batteries, almost as fast, if using more than one led as a load. I've had it lighting as many as 12 leds overnight, using 8 or 10 caps. But, will only last for a much longer amount of time if only one or two low voltage Red leds are used. Blue or white leds don't work the same with the Captret-Jt combo. although the Flat Top white leds do work well, and have a much wider degree light spread.
@ Conradelectro and All: I've noticed that when the run batteries of the Jt are totally discharged to 0 volts, and the device is allowed to rest for a second by disconnecting the batteries, it will again light the leds bright when reconnecting the same run batteries, even if only for only a few seconds. Kinda like the Joule Ringer. But it can do this over and over, seamingly forever. Similar to what happens when a discharged capacitors charge bounces back. So, this leads me to hopefully think that there is additional energy being pulled into the device by both the batteries, caps, or by the whole system. I feel this may be an important point, especially if the effect could be improved upon somehow, so that the led light would stay on permanently. That's the trick I'm working on now. Any ideas... are welcome.
NZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on February 06, 2011, 09:59:13 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on February 06, 2011, 09:26:10 PM
i was thinking of a double terminal relay then i could also have a light indicator for charge but i guess a transistor and led would work i will have to have a play see what i find ty for that

the idea was to use with solar panels,hydro,wind or just hand crank a way to tell if the bettary is charged
but as you pointed out a relay at low voltage may not work so maybe swap that for a transistor?

ok im lost on how i would wire it so that when the voltage is reached (charge) how it would shut off the supply

Dasimpson

What kind of battery will you be using?

My design is for a JT type charger...... the transistor controls the circuit indirectly.....so a large transistor should not be needed.

With a large transistor or mosfet you could run the power charging the battery directly through the transistor........controlling it directly

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on February 06, 2011, 10:24:54 PM

Quote from: NickZ on February 06, 2011, 09:32:03 PM
@ Gary:
Thanks for your reply. What I was referring to is:
doesn't placing an led into the primary part of an Jtc restrict the amount of power that the whole circuit would otherwise be able to output? As the led may also act like a resistor, not allowing more current to pass through it, and will blink off. I'm not talking about current or voltage control, but instead, trying to maximized the output.
When connecting a multi cap Captret to the Jtc, any resistance will affect it in a negative way, and so, I usually have to remove the resistor, trim pot, etz. in order to try unblock any unnecessary resistance.
I'm still trying to devise a way for the Jt to self-run by using a Captret as a source. But it seams that the Captret-Jtc is still discharging the two or three 9 volt batteries, almost as fast, if using more than one led as a load. I've had it lighting as many as 12 leds overnight, using 8 or 10 caps. But, will only last for a much longer amount of time if only one or two low voltage Red leds are used. Blue or white leds don't work the same with the Captret-Jt combo. although the Flat Top white leds do work well, and have a much wider degree light spread.
@ Conradelectro and All: I've noticed that when the run batteries of the Jt are totally discharged to 0 volts, and the device is allowed to rest for a second by disconnecting the batteries, it will again light the leds bright when reconnecting the same run batteries, even if only for only a few seconds. Kinda like the Joule Ringer. But it can do this over and over, seamingly forever. Similar to what happens when a discharged capacitors charge bounces back. So, this leads me to hopefully think that there is additional energy being pulled into the device by both the batteries, caps, or by the whole system. I feel this may be an important point, especially if the effect could be improved upon somehow, so that the led light would stay on permanently. That's the trick I'm working on now. Any ideas... are welcome.
NZ

Nick

Sorry I missed the part of your previous post that explained your idea of controling the JT by reducing the voltage.
I have never tried that......many of mine have been 12V

So far my best attempts at self running have involved using feedback.
Do you have any JT coils laying around?
If so try connecting a leg of a primary to each leg of your secondary........then connect the secondarys of these extra JT coils to a bridge. The bridge is then connected back to the JT battery.
The other end of the primarys of these extra coils has to be connected to a load of some kind........ or another coil with enough winds to create a high inductance load.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on February 07, 2011, 12:00:15 AM

Gary:
Thanks for the great idea on the feed-back, I'll try that one soon. I've heard about it, but have not tried it yet. I think that I have everything I need on hand. If I can get it to work, maybe it can be upgraded, also.
I intend to make a kind of Joule Thief-TPU. But I have been wondering if anyone ever tried to make a one or two foot bifilar toroid air core coil connected to a strong 12 volt Jtc? One that can light a CFL? I think that it should work kick ass... But, has it been done? Yes, No?

I have tried a few different big Jtc using different methods, like switching run and charge batteries back and forth, but there is always a loss that eventually means that the device will run down, and a bump-charge is necessary to keep it up.

The problem with self running has always been that the frequency changes when using the small AA batteries. And as they get discharged, the jtc looses resonance and quickly loses any of the special effects. So, I think that a small solar panel and 12 volt battery are the way to go, to avoid that problem, and maintain the device in resonance.
12 volts sounds interesting. Maybe for now I can use a 12 volt 500 mA wall adapter and resistor, if needed, to give it a try.
Gary, thanks again for the ideas...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on February 07, 2011, 08:54:17 AM

Quote from: resonanceman on February 06, 2011, 09:59:13 PM
Dasimpson

What kind of battery will you be using?

My design is for a JT type charger...... the transistor controls the circuit indirectly.....so a large transistor should not be needed.

With a large transistor or mosfet you could run the power charging the battery directly through the transistor........controlling it directly

gary

only small 1.2 or 2.4 volt from 3 solar cells that put out about 40 ma total cheap garden light ones lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on February 07, 2011, 09:06:52 AM

i was thinking something like this i know as it is in the drawing will turn the transistor on at set zenerdiode voltage but i wont it to turn off
here is what i have but dont know how to reverse it to turn off instead plus i think on that image the + and - rail need swopping

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on February 07, 2011, 02:31:33 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on February 07, 2011, 09:06:52 AM
i was thinking something like this i know as it is in the drawing will turn the transistor on at set zenerdiode voltage but i wont it to turn off
here is what i have but dont know how to reverse it to turn off instead plus i think on that image the + and - rail need swopping

Regarding polarity your drawing is ok. However to set the zener action and provide base bias for your circuit you will need to connect a resistor between the base of the transistor and the cathode of D1... say around 1K if you reduce this value you increase the base current.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on February 07, 2011, 03:36:56 PM

i have seen that on other explaernations but couldent make sence of it
could you explain what limiting the current would do
what i wont to happern is when the battery hits the charged voltage i wont the supply voltage to shut off and come on again when they batterys drops below the set level

i thoght the zener would of been on the positive rail so the voltage/current build up until it reaches the overflow point if you get what i mean that then saturated the transistor that then shuts off the flow of power

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on February 08, 2011, 04:52:53 AM

@ ALL, Can someone who knows !, if they can tell me if its OK to place a SuperCap in a circuit "on its side"
instead of standing up ????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on February 08, 2011, 03:46:50 PM

Quote from: dasimpson on February 07, 2011, 03:36:56 PM
i have seen that on other explaernations but couldent make sence of it
could you explain what limiting the current would do
what i wont to happern is when the battery hits the charged voltage i wont the supply voltage to shut off and come on again when they batterys drops below the set level

i thoght the zener would of been on the positive rail so the voltage/current build up until it reaches the overflow point if you get what i mean that then saturated the transistor that then shuts off the flow of power

Hi, The current gain of a transistor is adjusted via the bias current applied to the base junction. If you don't limit the base current, the transistor will turn 'hard on' and can cause a corresponding heavy collector current to flow... resulting in the transistor overheating and failing. The best way to achieve the type of control your after is by using a comparitor circuit. Google 'comparitor circuits' for some ideas, these circuits offer precise control action and use Op Amp IC's... cheap and simple, plenty of circuit ideas available to play with.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on February 08, 2011, 03:55:40 PM

@ dasimpson

I meant to mention when working with semiconductor devices at very low voltages!
You have to take into consideration the voltage drop which occurs across semiconductor junctions... typicaly 0.7v for for silicone diodes and 0.2v for schottky diodes. Same applies with transistor junctions... may not matter to much at higher circuit voltages but at low levels for charging cap's you have to take these drops into account and adjust circuit values accordingly.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: altrez on February 08, 2011, 06:17:20 PM

Quote from: freepow on February 08, 2011, 04:52:53 AM
@ ALL, Can someone who knows !, if they can tell me if its OK to place a SuperCap in a circuit "on its side"
instead of standing up ????

Yes it is fine.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on February 09, 2011, 04:39:13 AM

i think i will just stick to trickle charge limits lol

Quote from: crowclaw on February 08, 2011, 03:55:40 PM
@ dasimpson

I meant to mention when working with semiconductor devices at very low voltages!
You have to take into consideration the voltage drop which occurs across semiconductor junctions... typicaly 0.7v for for silicone diodes and 0.2v for schottky diodes. Same applies with transistor junctions... may not matter to much at higher circuit voltages but at low levels for charging cap's you have to take these drops into account and adjust circuit values accordingly.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on February 09, 2011, 06:48:08 AM

@ All, Hello, please look as my simple circuit image ( its not a actual schematic )...

Switch ( B ) is rated at 20 Amps.
Switch ( A ) is just a small switch rated at approx 2-3 Amps.

I am charging a Cap with 5 Amps, through switch ( B ), then I switch ( B ) off, then I use the joulethief by switching ( A ) on, and drawing only about 60-70 mA's from Cap...

Will switch ( A ) eventually be destroyed by charging up Cap with solar panel at 5 Amps, even though
switch ( A ) will be off ??????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on February 09, 2011, 02:07:54 PM

Quote from: freepow on February 09, 2011, 06:48:08 AM
@ All, Hello, please look as my simple circuit image ( its not a actual schematic )...

Switch ( B ) is rated at 20 Amps.
Switch ( A ) is just a small switch rated at approx 2-3 Amps.

I am charging a Cap with 5 Amps, through switch ( B ), then I switch ( B ) off, then I use the joulethief by switching ( A ) on, and drawing only about 60-70 mA's from Cap...

Will switch ( A ) eventually be destroyed by charging up Cap with solar panel at 5 Amps, even though
switch ( A ) will be off ??????
o

Your JT circuit only draws 70Ma = 0.07A then switch A is fine and doesn't need a higher rating... in fact can be a far lower rating. Switch B need not have a
20 AMP rating as your charge current does not exceed 5 AMPS. So again switch B could have a rating of 10 AMPS and it still will be fine. To sum up... as long as a circuit does not draw more current than the rating of the switch you will be fine.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on February 10, 2011, 08:08:03 AM

@ crowclaw, thanks for the info & to anyone else also,

I will be soon posting photo's of my first Homemade Solar Charging Joulethief powersupply Box, which will eventually have all the house lighted up with 240v LED (bulbs), but at the momement I will have our
main bedroom with 1x 240V LED (bulb) connected to the main indoor Box, which is charged by 10 wafer cells.

Will post photo's soon !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 10, 2011, 08:51:42 AM

Freepow:

I look forward to seeing that. Great work. Nice job putting these circuits to work.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on February 10, 2011, 09:22:05 AM

solar can be a pain i have just been out side lined up the panel with a cumpass and potractor to magnetic south my magnetic inclanation is less then 5 degress so no need for true south i lined uo the panel 68 degresse latitude is 53 add the 15 for winter sun
with the 3 2,5v 25ma panels i got the full 75ma after 5 minutes this droped to 30 and basicly jumps up and down.

what i am trying to say is you wont always have high current only for about 3 hours a day will you get the highest output the rest of the time it is build up and droping down from that

when fitting solar panels i found it best to set it for winter and leave it fixed there as this is when you need the power the most in summer you will easy produce the winter output and some with the panels in this postition

another note is they is 2 ways to work out the angle from yout latitude one by adding 15 and another multiplying by 0.9 and then adding 29 i think it was i tend to do both of these then take the number in between
but i have to admit adding 15 to your lattitude seems to work best from my finding also maths are easyer lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Bizzy on February 10, 2011, 12:40:10 PM

I will be soon posting photo's of my first Homemade Solar Charging Joulethief powersupply Box, which will eventually have all the house lighted up with 240v LED (bulbs), but at the momement I will have our
main bedroom with 1x 240V LED (bulb) connected to the main indoor Box, which is charged by 10 wafer cells.

Will post photo's soon !

It sounds like this is finally beging to fit into practical uses.Nice work.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on February 10, 2011, 12:43:43 PM

it was befor if you could get the camera flash units and the 240volt led lights.
supercap tho not sure they hold enogth power

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on February 13, 2011, 02:52:44 AM

@ All, I'll post photos in a couple of days - of my Solar charged Joulethief Power box, that is lighting our main bedroom, so there is only one large JT in the box at the momement, but I will be adding more as soon as I can afford the Supercaps.

My 400F 2.7v Supercap takes around 5 min to charge up with solar panel outside, the outside panel puts out 4-5 Amps at around 2-2.4v

after charging cap full in 5 min, It will light our 240v(20xLED) bulb nicely for about 1.5-2 hours...
Not bad for a 5 min charge from the sun !
I can have 2x 400F caps which would give me around 4 hours of light.
Considering if you put the lights on at sunset 7:30 pm and run light till 9:30 pm then go to bed, then 400F cap will be enough for us. (Summer time here at the moment)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on February 13, 2011, 09:37:18 AM

Freepow and All:
I'm running 4 Jtc as night lights all night long. Each one has a single AA battery running a 7 leds light bulb, that I charged each day, on a regular 4 AA charger, and run lit all night long.
Once I get a solar panel I can charge a 12v car battery and run as many Jtc as needed to light my whole house.
I also have two 13 led back-up lights, that use capacitors instead of batteries. Unfortunately they don't last more than a couple of hours, even though they are supposed to last 6 hours, they do put out some usable light though, and are self charging off the grid during the day. The best part is that you don't have to do anything with them, and they can be used nightly. The problem with capacitors is that they don't last very long, unless you spend big bucks for the good ones. Capacitors are not very cost effective for use on a JT circuits, but small solar panels and 12 volt batteries are.
I was so glad to see the Warm White leds, as I don't like the light given off by the regular super bright white Leds, or from the CFLs. Now the CFLs are also coming out with a warm white color, that are much better, but still not the same as the incandescent bulbs, that I've grown up with and still prefer.
NZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on February 13, 2011, 05:26:22 PM

Hi NickZ, can you tell me what your JT's are using in mA's from your AA's ,also can you post some pictures of your lights and JT's.

I have a great small box that has a 240v wall socket in it that I can plug a nice 240v(20xLED) bulb lamp with cord into it, and the jt is powered by 2xAA.

A question for you... if I was to charge 2xAA's how many volts would I need from a solar panel ???
What would be the fastest I can charge 2xAA's ?? (the max current I can charge with) ??

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on February 13, 2011, 05:50:17 PM

@ ALL, I have seen rechargeable "C" batteries rated at 9000 mA's and "AA" rated at 3000 mA's

Does anyone know the maximum current I can charge these at with a solar panel ????

Can I charge the "C" batteries with a 3 Amp solar panel ??
Can I charge the "AA"batteries with a 3 Amp solar panel ??

What minimum volts do I need to charge 2x AA battery rated at 1.25v each ????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on February 13, 2011, 05:58:00 PM

NEW SYTE
http://freeenergylt.narod2.ru/

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on February 13, 2011, 08:36:07 PM

here is a list for you
1.2v 2-2.5v
2.4v 3.5-4v
3.6v 5-6v
6v 7.5-9v
12v 15-18v

10% of there capacity so the 9000mah would be 900mah for 15 hours 30% counting losses
3000mah would be 300ma for 15 hours i have 2500mah batterys and i charge them on my charger for 16 hours at 250ma

what you could do is use a zener diode to dump the excess current off to a load to stop over charge this was how the old motorcycle electrics worked

Quote from: freepow on February 13, 2011, 05:26:22 PM
Hi NickZ, can you tell me what your JT's are using in mA's from your AA's ,also can you post some pictures of your lights and JT's.

I have a great small box that has a 240v wall socket in it that I can plug a nice 240v(20xLED) bulb lamp with cord into it, and the jt is powered by 2xAA.

A question for you... if I was to charge 2xAA's how many volts would I need from a solar panel ???
What would be the fastest I can charge 2xAA's ?? (the max current I can charge with) ??

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on February 13, 2011, 08:49:39 PM

if your panels put out such high current you could leave the units on 24/7 and the batterys would still be charged for the night

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on February 13, 2011, 08:51:33 PM

nick would you use a voltage devider to run the jt as thats how i was thinking of doing it but on the other hand i dont think they be need to use a jt with a 12volt system

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on February 13, 2011, 08:54:19 PM

you could charge at these ampages but you will need some way to control over charge the 9000 would take 3 hours at 0% loss the aa would be about 1 hour at solar noon that is when you are most lightly get the highest output

Quote from: freepow on February 13, 2011, 05:50:17 PM
@ ALL, I have seen rechargeable "C" batteries rated at 9000 mA's and "AA" rated at 3000 mA's

Does anyone know the maximum current I can charge these at with a solar panel ??? ?

Can I charge the "C" batteries with a 3 Amp solar panel ??
Can I charge the "AA"batteries with a 3 Amp solar panel ??

What minimum volts do I need to charge 2x AA battery rated at 1.25v each ??? ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Bizzy on February 14, 2011, 08:16:23 AM

Good Morning
When using the standard JT schematic everyone has been using to run LEDS, is there a maximum voltage this circuit can handle? or a Maximum amperage
Thanks
Bizzy

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on February 14, 2011, 09:32:47 AM

yeah it tends to be were you start blowing components not every part is the same so it is hard to tell or give a exact point were something will and will not work
the best goal is to use as low a voltage an ampage as possible this way you save power and can run for longer

i would say max voltage is 2.4v anything higher then that you may as well run the led direct off the battery
ampage i guess is the point were components start to get warm for me i wont longivity so i try for as little ampage and voltage as possible at 1volt my jt will put out 50 volts so i can run about 117 leds in series if i run them in parallel i start to lose brightness i find at full brightness the voltage across the led is about 2.9v

Quote from: Bizzy on February 14, 2011, 08:16:23 AM
Good Morning
When using the standard JT schematic everyone has been using to run LEDS, is there a maximum voltage this circuit can handle? or a Maximum amperage
Thanks
Bizzy

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Bizzy on February 14, 2011, 09:51:41 AM

Hi dasimpson
Ok Great. I don't need to know exact just a ball park figure. So what you gave me is perfect. I am in the process of adapting my JT to run a small pulse motor I am working on.
thanks
Bizzy

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on February 14, 2011, 10:16:55 AM

Guys:
I can't really say how many mA are being drawn from the Jt circuits. But if they don't last all night, with still some usable light output in the morning, I would say something is wrong. Most of my Jts will last all night and all day, plus... It seams that the smaller the toroid coil is, the longer the light lasts, still putting out good usable brightness. 3/4 inch ferrite toroids, like come in pc power supplies, work best, and don't take much space. I'll show what my units look like in my next post. Most of my Jtc use 3/4 to one inch toroids, and one or two AAs depending on the resistor. Of course the one with two AAs will last longer, but all I need them to last is overnight, as they will be charged during the day.
To charge any battery you need 1. 5 times the voltage over their normal voltage. The more time spent to charge the battery the better, as there is no heat or other problems related when charging too fast. If you feel the battery getting hot, you'll know that they are getting to much juice.
Using ready made multi-led bulbs don't work as well on a Jt, even though the light is strong, but they don't last as long, as they use too many mAs. If using a solar panel that may not matter. I find that using a secondary coil on the torroid, can help the light output, but not the duration. Using the right resistor on your panel to the battery will control the voltage level.
I would make it so the led lights are on 24/7, and the battery is charging all day. You can Balance the power draw from the leds so that no matter what, there is no overload on the battery, and you won't have to do anything, it can all be automatic, without any switches, or overlead protection. Or you can buy a charge controler for $20. The ones that desulfate the batteries with pulses are best, when going at it in a serious way.
There is no point in using a Joule Thief when using batteries of 2.5 volts or higher. As the JT is a hog, and the panel-battery circuit can be connected direct to the leds, without the JT. Thus getting All the light intensity from the leds, as they need the 30 mA or so for each led to light 100%. In that case an led boast circuit can be used instead.
Hope this helps...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on February 14, 2011, 10:56:24 AM

yeah i have had problems with this also my jt draws 12mah with a meter in sereis between the jt + mand battery
the battery i use is 2500 ideal worl i should get over 200hours but that would take the battery to 0 volts to get the full 2500
but i find that a fully charged battery at that current draw seems to last 10 hours or so

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on February 14, 2011, 11:01:08 AM

to run a pusle motor i think the faster you can charge the cap and the highest farad cap you can find be best as this will give a large pulse of power to the coil but you need it to charge very fast ready for the next magnet arriving

Quote from: Bizzy on February 14, 2011, 09:51:41 AM
Hi dasimpson
Ok Great. I don't need to know exact just a ball park figure. So what you gave me is perfect. I am in the process of adapting my JT to run a small pulse motor I am working on.
thanks
Bizzy

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on February 14, 2011, 11:26:32 AM

ok the spec of my unit is
5k resistor
2n3904
1 inch toriod black
cat 5 cable
winding are 11 collector 11 base
1 led diode and cap on output to measure voltage
current draw 18ma
battery is 2500mah
going to connect it now and will post when that light stop so we can see how long it has lasted
battery start voltage 1.26v

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Bizzy on February 14, 2011, 12:07:06 PM

dasimpson
a 5k resistor is much bigger than the 1k which most were using originally. Have you tried a 1k before? and if so doo you see a differance in performance?
thanks
Bizzy

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on February 14, 2011, 12:19:31 PM

i normaly use 1k i just ran out i guess i could put a few 5k in parallel to get 1k but with the 5k i must admit the ampage draw is a lot lower and the light is still good not enoth to light a room but well enogth to be able to see round the room maybe one in each corner might give ethern more light but as a bedside light dose very well i have another unit i use as a tourch so i use that for direct light btw that a 4x4 metre room i just tried with another jt and as i droped the resistence the light got brighter but also the current draw went up
as it stands at the moment i get 30v output i could use 10 leds in series and the draw of the circuit wont be affected as far as i know

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on February 14, 2011, 12:31:30 PM

one circuit i made had a 25ma draw when i ran it with my 2500mah battery i expected 100 hours of light but for some reasion i only got about 10 to 15 i dont know if this is because the 2500mah is classed from the full charged voltage of 1.4volt down to 0v or if it is 2500mah from the fully charged mark to the 1volt flat battery mark i think to have 2500mah you woul have to run the battery from full down to 0 but i can not find true or folse facts on this

i also dont think the joule thief follows ohms law as the current draw seems to change as the voltage of the battery changes

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Bizzy on February 14, 2011, 12:45:32 PM

That is interesting to note the lower amperage draw. I will have to make a JT with a 5kw resisitor and run that side by side with a 1kw reisitor as well.
That is if any of my parts get here.
Most of the shippers are just getting caught up after the snow storms
Bizzy

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on February 14, 2011, 12:49:42 PM

i work with pc's so i got mine from power supplys monitors etc out of all of them i find black ones work best the yellow ones seem pritty rubbish
5k m8 (5000ohms) i think a 5kw would be way to much lol

i did try axial inductors they seemed to work very very good and got one unit to run on 1ma untill i tried to make it a solid unit think i applied to soldering iron for to long as one of the inductors stoped working

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 14, 2011, 03:56:13 PM

Try using a 10k VR in your JT circuit. With this you can tune for lowest amp draw or, for best light output. If you have the correct components, you should be able to hit a good resonance point.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on February 14, 2011, 04:11:42 PM

im going to do that i did buy one but then the vr went in my amp so it went into that instead lol just been to busy past week or so to get to the shop in time to pick one up

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on February 14, 2011, 06:20:55 PM

well my jt is still going battery voltage 0.50v and the output voltage into the led is at 2.50v
it may as well be off as at the present it isent giving enogth light to do what i wont it to
i just dont know were to go from here as no matter what i seem to do i can not get it to run longer at the light level i wont
ppl on here have these working for dats weks and month wish i could

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on February 14, 2011, 07:41:09 PM

ok i have started again
11 base 11 collector
2n3904
1k resistor (5x5k resistors in parallel to get 1k)
1led
current draw is 35ma
battery 2500mah at 1.26 volts
will be started at 1 am lets see how long this lasts
no diode and cap this time for mesuring output voltage

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 14, 2011, 08:43:04 PM

dasimpson:

You may be hurting yourself with your toroids. If we have all learned nothing here, we have learned that not all toroids are created equal. Using an unknown toroid from a power supply means you have no idea as to its permeability, and therefore how or IF it will perform.

You really can't beat those 5 for $1 one inch toroids from goldmine. A lot of us have used them to good effect. Are there higher permeability toroids around? Sure. Is one of them in a power supply, probably not, but, of course, anything is possible.

So, what I am trying to say here is that since you are not getting the performance others have achieved, and you are not happy with it, then chances are that your toroids are not the best choice.

Also, be advised that some of us have also seen a wide difference in transistors even of the same part number. I have about 40 2N3904s around here and ones I got from one source, work differently than ones obtained at another. Mostly, I see that I can take a battery or cap down lower with some then with the others. I forget the term for this at the moment. It has to do with the least voltage a transistor will turn on and off with.

I admire your continued efforts over here and am only offering you some, hopefully, helpful suggestions. Someone gave me good advice here on this OU site a long time ago....and that was to replicate someone's circuit exactly, same components, wire, materials...everything...getting it working just like the original and then, of course, try to improve it. But then change only one thing at a time, and if your performance goes down, you know you went the wrong way.

I hope this helps.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 15, 2011, 02:44:31 AM

@ All:

I was looking back through our topic here trying to find out how to make an AV plug led rf tester and came across an old post of mine back on page 50.

It was a source for 4" OD toroids for $50.00 ea. Well, I decided to hit the link to check the price and it is now down to $21 ea. These are about 4.1" OD and, I know a lot of folks were looking for the large toroids....including me so..here is the link:

http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/1481978-ferrite-toroid-102mm-od-b64290a0084x830.html (http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/1481978-ferrite-toroid-102mm-od-b64290a0084x830.html)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on February 15, 2011, 05:31:47 AM

@ All

Here is photo's of my "Solar powered JT power supply box"

Box contains only 1x JT lighting the "Main Bedroom" at the moment, I will be adding more
JT's in the box with 400Fcaps, when I can afford it.

With these 2x meters, I can monitor the Solar Panel output or just switch on Charge switch and
I can monitor the 1st Jt with 400F Cap and watch it charge up by the volt meter, when the Cap
reaches about... 2.2 to 2.4v, on volt meter, I can then switch off Charge switch to the 1st Jt.
It only takes around 5-8 minutes to charge Cap up, then run Main BR light at night for about
2 hours, of course if I want it very bright it will be less than 2 hours or not as bright it will then last
much longer than 2 hours, I have a small variable resistor in Jt.

Photo 1 = I can put the switch into volts position, and monitor "Solar Panel" output,
or to the Amps position which will give me output in Amps.

Photo 2 = Full side view of box.

Photo 4 = Full front view of box, with "2x meters" and "Solar charge switch" for 400F cap.
And small switch for "Main bedroom" light.

Photo 5 = Inside look of box, there is room for 3x Jt's across top and 3x Jt's across bottom.

Photo 6,7 = Close up view of Jt with 400F cap.

Photo 8,9 = LED bulb mounted on ceiling beam, lit with Jt in box, however I took this photo
when power in Cap was fairly low at about 1.2 to 1.4v, much brighter at 2+ volts.

Photo 10,11 = Close up view of "volt meter" showing Cap voltage.

Photo 12 = Close up view of side of box switch.

Photo 14,15 = Close up view of front box with top switch "OFF / CHARGE"
and small switch "OFF / MAIN BR"

Photo 16,18 = Close up view of left side of box with "MAIN BR" next to screw terminal that has
twin wire going to ceiling light.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on February 15, 2011, 05:34:25 AM

@ All, Here is the rest of the photo's.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on February 15, 2011, 05:47:54 AM

@ All, Here is Photo-1 and Photo-2 of my 5 yo Son's Night Light.

Photo-1 = Close up of the Night Light with Red LED on.
Photo-2 = looking up at it, you will see Red LED lit, which means the small Solar cell
outside is charging this Night Light (Jt with 50F cap), when the voltage in the
Cap reaches a certain voltage, the Green LED lights up, then I will switch
the Solar cell off.

With this Night Light, I can turn the draw current down to as little as 0.11 mA and the
LED still lights up fairly good, or turn it up to around maby 2 mA and it lights up very bright.

I have a small variable resistor in this Jt.

On a sunny day it only takes 2-3 hours to charge up nicely or very cloudy day around 4-6 hours.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on February 15, 2011, 06:06:38 AM

thanks for the info i have noticed some transistors start at a low voltage then others i also noticed that the jt will drag the battery down to the transister start voltage and then sit there for hours so what i wounder is that anything above the start voltage isent needed my secound attempt is still going not as bright but it is still going very well maybe i am just expecting to much from this
i wont long lasting but also very bright i guess i cont have both just one or the other

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 14, 2011, 08:43:04 PM
dasimpson:

You may be hurting yourself with your toroids. If we have all learned nothing here, we have learned that not all toroids are created equal. Using an unknown toroid from a power supply means you have no idea as to its permeability, and therefore how or IF it will perform.

You really can't beat those 5 for $1 one inch toroids from goldmine. A lot of us have used them to good effect. Are there higher permeability toroids around? Sure. Is one of them in a power supply, probably not, but, of course, anything is possible.

So, what I am trying to say here is that since you are not getting the performance others have achieved, and you are not happy with it, then chances are that your toroids are not the best choice.

Also, be advised that some of us have also seen a wide difference in transistors even of the same part number. I have about 40 2N3904s around here and ones I got from one source, work differently than ones obtained at another. Mostly, I see that I can take a battery or cap down lower with some then with the others. I forget the term for this at the moment. It has to do with the least voltage a transistor will turn on and off with.

I admire your continued efforts over here and am only offering you some, hopefully, helpful suggestions. Someone gave me good advice here on this OU site a long time ago....and that was to replicate someone's circuit exactly, same components, wire, materials...everything...getting it working just like the original and then, of course, try to improve it. But then change only one thing at a time, and if your performance goes down, you know you went the wrong way.

I hope this helps.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on February 15, 2011, 09:46:39 AM

@ Dasimpson:
To use a commercial led bulb, the result will be that it will not light for long, when connected to a Jtc. If you have not tried a few single leds, in series, give that a try, you see that they will last a lot longer, on the same set up. Also try a different resistor.
If I use a commercial 20 led bulb, or even a 6 led bulb, it will only light for 4 hours or so, on the same single AA battery that will light 12 leds (bright) in parallel, all night. I have not tried it in series. Leds are also different, some consume a lot more juice. I like the flat top one because they have a very wide light dispersion, not like most.
The commercial bulbs are made to handle a lot more voltage and current than is putout by Jt. All my units last all night and all day, plus some more if I leave them alone. I just need for them to last all night though as I charge the batteries during the day. I'm still hoping to connect them all a 12v battery and solar panel, and leave them running full time.
Most of my Jtc are made from the yellow Pc toroids, and I have had some luck with them. They may not be the best, but are free, and have worked ok for me, as I'm not trying to light CFLs.

@ Pirate: I have the link for the 6 inch ferrite toroids, if anyone is still interested in them.
Thanks for the link for the 4 inch ones. I wonder if any toroids are ever made that are like one foot, or bigger.
NZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on February 15, 2011, 11:07:38 AM

i might be able to help you there i use this circuit for night and day light and works very well
btw the light dosent turn off it is on forages just night as bright as i would like is all i have tried parallel leds and they brightness goes down with each led adderd but if i put them in series they stay the same brightness until i hit the voltage limit
you can use just one battery with this circuit and a 2.5v solar panel

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on February 15, 2011, 11:10:28 AM

the jt i have at moment has an output of 30volts so i can run 9-10 leds at full brightness if i try and run the same amount of leds in parallel the brightness drops i havent dont a longivity test with more then one led i may try with 9 in series ad see how that works

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on February 15, 2011, 11:21:19 AM

i use wide angle led also they have like a hole drilled in the top here is an image they can put out quite a bit of light
sorry for bad qality not much light and i was using my phone

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on February 15, 2011, 11:21:31 AM

@ All:
Here are some pictures of the Jt circuits that I'm working on now. The last ones are of my captret lighting 12 leds, the small Jt is solar powered.
NickZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on February 15, 2011, 11:27:50 AM

lol i have the exact same yellow and white toriods dident have much luck with them tho maybe it is because i am using cat5 cable

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on February 15, 2011, 05:17:54 PM

The yellow ones are not the best toroids out there, but the price was right, (free). They are fine for getting to know a little about toroids, and what they can do, without spending anything on ferrites.
I think it can be done with big air cores, without the cost of buying big expensive 6 inch or bigger ferrite coils.
I'm going to wind a big bifilar air coil on a clear 2 inch hose, and connect the ends with a dowel to form a circle. Wind a bunch on turns on it, and see what it does.
Looks to me that for a given voltage on the Jt, the bigger the bifilar coil, the greater the output. Anyways, a big air coil with a thousand turns of 30 gauge magnet wire should work. Why not? I'm aiming for the Jt-TPU, but , would like to see some current too, not just flufffffff.
NZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on February 15, 2011, 06:28:22 PM

if the jt unit relates to tranformers the more voltage you get the less ampage they will be
i also had very good results with the ac filter from psu's also

you should give the circuit i posted a try for control the on and off of the lights it works very well i have noticed it dose work better on 2.4 volt think that is because of the voltage drop of the tranasistor

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 15, 2011, 10:17:49 PM

NZ:

Yes, those yellow toroids are not ferrite but powdered iron...totally different properties. I have seen some folks make them work but, my best results have been with the high perm. ferrites.
Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on February 15, 2011, 11:49:09 PM

All:
Thanks for the info, Bill. I had not even checked as people had mentioned that they thought they were ferrite.
In any case they seam to work well for me, and were free and available.
I'm sure that to get the most out of these circuits the higher perm ferrite toroids work the best. But for what I needed them for, these seam to worked just fine. Just using one AA can make my Jtc using the Yellow toroids last for a couple of days, but one nights worth of full on led light each day, is all I need from them.
Bill, Question... Does using a secondary on the Jt coil and adding more leds, also increase the total load on the circuit, thus reducing the time and duty cycle on the battery???

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 16, 2011, 02:52:56 AM

Nick:

Using the MK1 style winding, like Jeanna, and many others have done, allows many, many additional leds added to the secondary without and noticeable power drain increase or shortening of the battery life. That is what is so good about that type of winding.

The light I made for my Mom used a 1" toroid (Ferrite, it is on my youtube videos) would burn an ultra bright led 24/7 for about 30 days. and this was just a basic JT bifilar winding, not the MK1 version or anything fancy. I also used "dead" batteries from my digital camera when the light went out, and still it lit for about 30 days. (give or take)

We decided not to call that a secondary but...pick-up coil. and, others have discovered (Jeanna mostly) that you can ad an almost infinite number of pick-up cols and run leds off of them and it does NOT increase the amp draw, or dim the leds. This is, to me, part of the magic of these circuits. This should not happen, yet it does, and has been replicated by many folks on here. We, of course, are limited by space on the number of pick-up coils that can be wound on a toroid so, this was probably the reason to go to the larger diameter toroids. More space.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on February 16, 2011, 05:13:26 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 16, 2011, 02:52:56 AM
Nick:

Using the MK1 style winding, like Jeanna, and many others have done, allows many, many additional leds added to the secondary without and noticeable power drain increase or shortening of the battery life. That is what is so good about that type of winding.

The light I made for my Mom used a 1" toroid (Ferrite, it is on my youtube videos) would burn an ultra bright led 24/7 for about 30 days. and this was just a basic JT bifilar winding, not the MK1 version or anything fancy. I also used "dead" batteries from my digital camera when the light went out, and still it lit for about 30 days. (give or take)

We decided not to call that a secondary but...pick-up coil. and, others have discovered (Jeanna mostly) that you can ad an almost infinite number of pick-up cols and run leds off of them and it does NOT increase the amp draw, or dim the leds. This is, to me, part of the magic of these circuits. This should not happen, yet it does, and has been replicated by many folks on here. We, of course, are limited by space on the number of pick-up coils that can be wound on a toroid so, this was probably the reason to go to the larger diameter toroids. More space.

Bill

Hi Bill,

Where do I find information about the "MK1 style winding"?

Regards,
Alex.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 16, 2011, 05:24:04 AM

Alex:

Here on this topic, but please, do not ask me where...ha ha. the Jeanna circuit is based upon Mark's design. She did a lot of experiments and research to find that adding more leds on the pick-up coil windings did not make them dimmer and, did not increase the amp draw. More light...no cost...or so it seems. She did also find that there was a limit to this but...I believe it was many, many leds before it no longer worked. I am sure she can answer this much better than I with my bad memory.

If not, let me know and I can point you to some youtube vids of mine, Jeanna's, and lidmotors.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 16, 2011, 05:26:35 AM

Alex:

IF memory serves, MK1 started posting about his multiple coils on a single toroid within the first 100 pages of this topic. Does not really narrow it down but, maybe a little. It was in the early days and it inspired us all to look at the JT a little differently.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on February 16, 2011, 05:34:49 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 16, 2011, 05:26:35 AM
Alex:

IF memory serves, MK1 started posting about his multiple coils on a single toroid within the first 100 pages of this topic. Does not really narrow it down but, maybe a little. It was in the early days and it inspired us all to look at the JT a little differently.

Bill

Bill,

Thanks. I will try to find the information in this thread.
Have a nice day. :-)

Alex.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 16, 2011, 05:38:42 AM

Thanks Alex, you too. i wish I could pinpoint it a little closer but, maybe Mark or Jeanna will jump in and give you closer directions. Possibly the search function might narrow it down also. Does not always work for me but once in a while it does.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Bizzy on February 16, 2011, 06:14:11 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 16, 2011, 05:38:42 AM
Thanks Alex, you too. i wish I could pinpoint it a little closer but, maybe Mark or Jeanna will jump in and give you closer directions. Possibly the search function might narrow it down also. Does not always work for me but once in a while it does.

Bill

Good Morning
I have been looking for that same circuit but this is a LONG thread...is it called MK1?
Thanks
Bizzy

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 16, 2011, 06:26:53 AM

Yes it is. The MK1 coil winding. Then, later on it is the Jeanna circuit after she modded it to get over 1,000 volts from an AA bat.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on February 16, 2011, 06:42:58 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 16, 2011, 06:26:53 AM
Yes it is. The MK1 coil winding. Then, later on it is the Jeanna circuit after she modded it to get over 1,000 volts from an AA bat.

Bill

Bill,

I think I found it here:
Topic: Joule Thief Circuit Diagrams, Etc....
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6942.60

Alex.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on February 16, 2011, 06:53:25 AM

So here is my BIG Joule Thief based on a Metglas Powerlite C-Core AMCC-320.
It has two oscillators sharing the same core. This is a 12 Volt design and is mainly
for recharging 12 Volt lead acid batteries. The input will be provided from a 120 Watt
solar panel. I have some soldering work to do on this unit before first run. I'm still
waiting for some parts in the snail mail. But I hope to get the unit done this weekend.
Two over-sized panel meters make this unit look quite retro. LOL

Alex.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on February 16, 2011, 07:27:22 AM

@all and Ground loop

I made a video of the Mk1 winding , based on Jeanna observation it transformed the radian tall spikes into something similar to AC waves , but benefit is to be able to load the secondary without losing power on the JT led .

Basically you wind one layer then come back winding the wire between the other wire so you have one layer thick on the top but 2 layer thick in the middle of the toroid .

http://www.youtube.com/user/abramrk1?feature=mhum

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on February 16, 2011, 07:30:51 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 16, 2011, 07:27:22 AM
@all and Ground loop

I made a video of the Mk1 winding , based on Jeanna observation it transformed the radian tall spikes into something similar to AC waves , but benefit is to be able to load the secondary without losing power on the JT led .

Basically you wind one layer then come back winding the wire between the other wire so you have one layer thick on the top but 2 layer thick in the middle of the toroid .

http://www.youtube.com/user/abramrk1?feature=mhum

MK1,

Thank you for posting this information.
This is what I was looking for.

Regards,
Alex.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Bizzy on February 16, 2011, 08:01:33 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on February 16, 2011, 07:27:22 AM
@all and Ground loop

I made a video of the Mk1 winding , based on Jeanna observation it transformed the radian tall spikes into something similar to AC waves , but benefit is to be able to load the secondary without losing power on the JT led .

Basically you wind one layer then come back winding the wire between the other wire so you have one layer thick on the top but 2 layer thick in the middle of the toroid .

http://www.youtube.com/user/abramrk1?feature=mhum

Thanks that will help alot
Bizzy

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 16, 2011, 08:16:25 AM

Here is Lidmotor's Jeanna's Light schematic. Maybe this will help also. I built this and it works great.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on February 16, 2011, 09:04:38 AM

Jeanna,

When you find the time, can you fill in the coil number of turns and wire thickness?
EDIT: Used the information from Bill in the drawing.

Thanks,
Alex.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Bizzy on February 16, 2011, 09:13:21 AM

Quote from: Groundloop on February 16, 2011, 09:04:38 AM
Jeanna,

When you find the time, can you fill in the coil number of turns and wire thickness?

Thanks,
Alex.
Hi Jeanna
Also could you give more detail on the 25R and 22 R. Also where were you able to find a torroid so large?
Thanks
Bizzy

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 16, 2011, 09:16:47 AM

It was 3 turns on the base coil, 13 turns on the collector coil and 330 turns on the pick-up coil. At least that is what Lidmotor had on his drawing that I replicated. 24 ga. on everything except 30 ga. for the 330 turns. Transistor is a TIP 3055. 22 ohm base resistor and 25 ohm pot. I actually added a second pot for better tuning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-m3sTtDbrPI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-m3sTtDbrPI)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 16, 2011, 09:18:17 AM

Bizzy:

I posted a source for 4" OD ferrite toroids a few posts back.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Bizzy on February 16, 2011, 09:53:57 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 16, 2011, 09:18:17 AM
Bizzy:

I posted a source for 4" OD ferrite toroids a few posts back.

Bill

Hi Bill
Was that goldmine?
Its smetimes ahrd to find a great post after you read it becuase so many are added afterwards.
thanks
Scott

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on February 16, 2011, 10:39:56 AM

Bill and All:
Thanks for the reply. The reason I asked is because I have noticed that for me, using a secondary with the Yellow Pc toroids does seam to affect the duration on the batteries, in a negative way. The same coil wound with a secondary does not keep up with the battery run times, compared to ones with only a primary, using the same leds. SkyWatcher who also made several days or weeks of tests, also mentioned something about lower run times when using a secondary. As also that the bigger the torroid the higher the battery charge consuption. I realize that tuning is also an important part of the process, and that the best highest perm Ferrite toroids are the ones to use. But for those of us that can find them, the Pc toroid can be made to work, ok, not great, but are very usable.
Has anyone had luck with big air cores???
I have watched all of Jeanna's video that deal with the subject, and most of Marks, yours, and everyone elses.
It would mean that 100 leds can last the same amount of run time on a secondary, as one led does on the primary. I don't think that that is the case. That is still my question...
If anyone else has noticed this, please comment, as I think that it is an important point.
This is also being tested elsewhere, but only on the secondaries output voltage, compared to input voltage, not duration or run the times, which is just as important.
The leds themselves are all different also, plus they do dim after weeks, or months of use, by as much as 50%, especially the cheaper ones from China. So, you get what you pay for.
NZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on February 16, 2011, 10:52:57 AM

Maybe we can get a more recent opinion from Jeanna, also.
What happened to her? Did she hit on something brilliant and is not telling?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on February 16, 2011, 02:22:48 PM

@NickZ
A JT circuit will work ok... air core. This post way way back was a TV coaxial flylead wound around a vodka bottle (Season joke) the coax lead worked without it as well as the bottle was only glass. The two coils of the JT circuit was simply the outer braiding or screen and the inner of the coax!! Go back to this posting to see my Pic's and scope shot's.
Â« Reply #12257 on: January 29, 2010, 02:11:54 PM Â»

PAGE 818

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on February 16, 2011, 03:13:26 PM

Crowclaw:
This was the post: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.12255
Looks like you got the best results from what was inside the bottle. Just kidding...
I was just looking at one of Otto's letters that was posted by one of the guys here, it showed the reverse of your scope shots. His peeks looked like yours but were all negative spikes. I think that it might be any important point, negative spikes, as also negative resistance in the coils. He may have been onto something, if we can finished what he started. He showed that tuning is a very fine art, and can not be done haphazardly.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 16, 2011, 04:16:51 PM

Quote from: Bizzy on February 16, 2011, 09:53:57 AM
Hi Bill
Was that goldmine?
Its smetimes ahrd to find a great post after you read it becuase so many are added afterwards.
thanks
Scott

http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/1481978-ferrite-toroid-102mm-od-b64290a0084x830.html (http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/1481978-ferrite-toroid-102mm-od-b64290a0084x830.html)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MasterPlaster on February 16, 2011, 06:38:32 PM

Quote from: NickZ on February 16, 2011, 03:13:26 PM
Crowclaw:
I was just looking at one of Otto's letters that was posted by one of the guys here, it showed the reverse of your scope shots. His peeks looked like yours but were all negative spikes. I think that it might be any important point, negative spikes, as also negative resistance in the coils. He may have been onto something, if we can finished what he started. He showed that tuning is a very fine art, and can not be done haphazardly.

Long time ago cars used to be +ve earth. This meant the + side of the battery was connected to the body and the rest of the electrical system was connected to the 0 of the battery. I did a bit of research on that and one of the things I discovered was that you would get a netter spark that way. I suspect it has ro do with earth and the ionosphere being a capacitor.

Otto must have realised the same. This may be why his wave forms are mirror of yours.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on February 16, 2011, 08:39:31 PM

Masterplaster and All:
I had received several PMs from Otto, with some of his circuit information. He lived in the same city as my relatives. My father was from the same country, and my grandfather and I also have same first name as Tesla.
We disscused the negative spikes, and negative coil resistance, as also the benefits of using copper wire that has been tinned. His devices did work differently. They remind me of Keely's use of implosion, or cavitation, similar to the way a Vortex works. As a positive force towards the center, instead of an outward force that is dissipated into space.
When a pulse is applied to a coil, that causes a negative spike, the re-action therefrom causes positive electrical generation.
I wish I knew more, but I do remember these observations that Otto had made. I still miss him...

@ All: Check out this U.S. company that also sells the Big ferrite toroids: 10.000 permeability, and 12.000 induction
http://www.mag-inc.com/products/ferrite-cores/ferrite-toroids.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MasterPlaster on February 16, 2011, 09:06:13 PM

Quote from: NickZ on February 16, 2011, 08:39:31 PM
I had received several PMs from Otto, with some of his circuit information.

Nikola
I am sure Otto would love you to share with the world his citcuit information.
We exchanged PMs several times and I have great respect for him.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on February 16, 2011, 10:50:55 PM

Masterplaster:
I wish that I could remember more about Otto's circuits, but at the time everything was still at the experimental stage, and given to changes.
Otto did mention that he thought the TPU or at least his version of it, worked as a type of semiconductor at room temps. He kept repeating the advantage of tinned copper wire and also copper oxide , as the different coil frequencies needed to run both inside as well on the surface of the wires.
When I shared my views concerning the vortex aspect of the coils function, he did not really agree, I'm still thinking about that one...
Although he shared his knowledge, he may not have shown all his cards, as he was careful in both what he said, as also what he didn't say. I wish that I had had more time to know him better. Most of his ideas are is still in the various posts and PMs, and letters, that are still floating around. Would be nice to post his YouTube video, I think that he may have only made one, I can't remember.
I know this is all off topic, but at the same time it may be related to our future ventures with the more and more complex versions of the Joule Thief.
NZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 16, 2011, 11:23:30 PM

Nick:

The link you posted above for the large toroids is not working correctly. Just wanted to let you know. I tried going to the address without the link and it still said "no page found."

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on February 16, 2011, 11:42:40 PM

Thanks Bill, yes I noticed that. I'll try to send the link a little different this time:
http://www.mag-inc.com/products/ferrite-cores/ferrite-toroids
I just tried the one above and it worked. If it doesn't, it can be removed.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on February 17, 2011, 05:27:18 AM

@ If anyone's interested !!!

Here is photo's of my "Solar powered JT power supply box"

Box contains only 1x JT lighting the "Main Bedroom" at the moment, I will be adding more
JT's in the box with 400Fcaps, when I can afford it.

With these 2x meters, I can monitor the Solar Panel output or just switch on Charge switch and
I can monitor the 1st Jt with 400F Cap and watch it charge up by the volt meter, when the Cap
reaches about... 2.2 to 2.4v, on volt meter, I can then switch off Charge switch to the 1st Jt.
It only takes around 5-8 minutes to charge Cap up, then run Main BR light at night for about
2 hours, of course if I want it very bright it will be less than 2 hours or not as bright it will then last
much longer than 2 hours, I have a small variable resistor in Jt.

Photo 1 = I can put the switch into volts position, and monitor "Solar Panel" output,
or to the Amps position which will give me output in Amps.

Photo 2 = Full side view of box.

Photo 4 = Full front view of box, with "2x meters" and "Solar charge switch" for 400F cap.
And small switch for "Main bedroom" light.

Photo 5 = Inside look of box, there is room for 3x Jt's across top and 3x Jt's across bottom.

Photo 6,7 = Close up view of Jt with 400F cap.

Photo 8,9 = LED bulb mounted on ceiling beam, lit with Jt in box, however I took this photo
when power in Cap was fairly low at about 1.2 to 1.4v, much brighter at 2+ volts.

Photo 10,11 = Close up view of "volt meter" showing Cap voltage.

Photo 12 = Close up view of side of box switch.

Photo 14,15 = Close up view of front box with top switch "OFF / CHARGE"
and small switch "OFF / MAIN BR"

Photo 16,18 = Close up view of left side of box with "MAIN BR" next to screw terminal that has
twin wire going to ceiling light.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Bizzy on February 17, 2011, 05:34:55 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 16, 2011, 04:16:51 PM

http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/1481978-ferrite-toroid-102mm-od-b64290a0084x830.html (http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/1481978-ferrite-toroid-102mm-od-b64290a0084x830.html)

Bill

Good Morning
Bill,
Ok great, this will work out well.
Thanks
Bizzy

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on February 17, 2011, 05:35:14 AM

@ All, rest of photo's ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Bizzy on February 17, 2011, 05:37:58 AM

Quote from: freepow on February 17, 2011, 05:27:18 AM
@ If anyone's interested !!!

Here is photo's of my "Solar powered JT power supply box"

Box contains only 1x JT lighting the "Main Bedroom" at the moment, I will be adding more
JT's in the box with 400Fcaps, when I can afford it.

With these 2x meters, I can monitor the Solar Panel output or just switch on Charge switch and
I can monitor the 1st Jt with 400F Cap and watch it charge up by the volt meter, when the Cap
reaches about... 2.2 to 2.4v, on volt meter, I can then switch off Charge switch to the 1st Jt.
It only takes around 5-8 minutes to charge Cap up, then run Main BR light at night for about
2 hours, of course if I want it very bright it will be less than 2 hours or not as bright it will then last
much longer than 2 hours, I have a small variable resistor in Jt.

Photo 1 = I can put the switch into volts position, and monitor "Solar Panel" output,
or to the Amps position which will give me output in Amps.

Photo 2 = Full side view of box.

Photo 4 = Full front view of box, with "2x meters" and "Solar charge switch" for 400F cap.
And small switch for "Main bedroom" light.

Photo 5 = Inside look of box, there is room for 3x Jt's across top and 3x Jt's across bottom.

Photo 6,7 = Close up view of Jt with 400F cap.

Photo 8,9 = LED bulb mounted on ceiling beam, lit with Jt in box, however I took this photo
when power in Cap was fairly low at about 1.2 to 1.4v, much brighter at 2+ volts.

Photo 10,11 = Close up view of "volt meter" showing Cap voltage.

Photo 12 = Close up view of side of box switch.

Photo 14,15 = Close up view of front box with top switch "OFF / CHARGE"
and small switch "OFF / MAIN BR"

Photo 16,18 = Close up view of left side of box with "MAIN BR" next to screw terminal that has
twin wire going to ceiling light.

Good Morning
Yes I am very interested. But is there a way you could make the pictures focused and perhaps smaller. They seem grainy and I am not sure if it is my computer or the pictures.
Thanks
Bizzy

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on February 17, 2011, 06:01:49 AM

Sorry, I thought the photo,s seemed ok on my computer, although yes some are a bit blury

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: teslaalset on February 17, 2011, 06:12:01 AM

For re-sizing images you could use Irfanview (freeware).
Open the image in irfanview and then press 'CTRL R' and choose a new size.
A good size is 600 wide.
Save it and upload.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: wings on February 17, 2011, 06:59:10 AM

Quote from: teslaalset on February 17, 2011, 06:12:01 AM
For re-sizing images you could use Irfanview (freeware).
Open the image in irfanview and then press 'CTRL R' and choose a new size.
A good size is 600 wide.
Save it and upload.

more practical with right mouse click and windows free tools
Image Resizer
This PowerToy enables you to resize one or many image files with a right-click.

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Bizzy on February 17, 2011, 07:06:45 AM

Quote from: teslaalset on February 17, 2011, 06:12:01 AM
For re-sizing images you could use Irfanview (freeware).
Open the image in irfanview and then press 'CTRL R' and choose a new size.
A good size is 600 wide.
Save it and upload.

Good morning
Ok here is a dumb technical question. How do I attach pictures on to the posts here?
Thanks
Bizzy

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: teslaalset on February 17, 2011, 07:32:04 AM

Quote from: Bizzy on February 17, 2011, 07:06:45 AM
Good morning
Ok here is a dumb technical question. How do I attach pictures on to the posts here?
Thanks
Bizzy

Open a reply window and look at the 'Attach' entry below the text entry window.
Some restrictions on file type and size are mentioned there as well.

If the size of the attachment is realy large, attachements can be placed in the 'download' section of this forum:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=downloads .
Then click on 'myfiles' (you should be logged into this forum first).
Finally click 'add a download'.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Bizzy on February 17, 2011, 07:57:51 AM

Quote from: teslaalset on February 17, 2011, 07:32:04 AM
Open a reply window and look at the 'Attach' entry below the text entry window.
Some restrictions on file type and size are mentioned there as well.

If the size of the attachment is realy large, attachements can be placed in the 'download' section of this forum:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=downloads .
Then click on 'myfiles' (you should be logged into this forum first).
Finally click 'add a download'.

Great Thanks that will help alot. I finally received the parts for my air battery and wish to post the results and the pictures. As well as some of my JT experiments
Bizzy

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Bizzy on February 17, 2011, 01:00:52 PM

Good afternoon
I have a general question I hope someone can answer...
Is there a simple circuit I can add at the output of the JT that would oscilate the output? if anyone could provide such a schematic that would be fantastic
Thanks
Bizzy

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on February 17, 2011, 01:25:03 PM

There is a site that gives free a 200 transistor circuits, oscillators are included.
The link: http://www.talkingelectronics.com/projects/200TrCcts/200TrCctsFrontice.html

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Bizzy on February 17, 2011, 01:39:48 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on February 17, 2011, 01:25:03 PM
There is a site that gives free a 200 transistor circuits, oscillators are included.
The link: http://www.talkingelectronics.com/projects/200TrCcts/200TrCctsFrontice.html

Jesus

Hi Jesus
Ok Thanks I'll take a look
Bizzy

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Bizzy on February 17, 2011, 01:40:39 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on February 17, 2011, 01:25:03 PM
There is a site that gives free a 200 transistor circuits, oscillators are included.
The link: http://www.talkingelectronics.com/projects/200TrCcts/200TrCctsFrontice.html

Jesus

Ok Thanks I'll take a look
Bizzy

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 17, 2011, 02:42:52 PM

Freepow:

PLEASE post photos no larger than 800 X 600 as it totally ruins the page for others. It make us have to use the scroll bar to read the horizontally distorted text.

I can go back and try to fix the others but it takes me a long time to do so and I have very little time these days.

Just use any photo program to change the photo size to 800 x 600 or smaller and all will be fine.

Thank you very much.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on February 25, 2011, 04:19:51 PM

My JT with an AA battery lighting a neon:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ycmmop-IJ44

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 25, 2011, 06:55:38 PM

Quote from: guruji on February 25, 2011, 04:19:51 PM
My JT with an AA battery lighting a neon:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ycmmop-IJ44 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ycmmop-IJ44)

Nice job on the charger.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on February 26, 2011, 09:55:17 AM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on February 17, 2011, 01:25:03 PM
There is a site that gives free a 200 transistor circuits, oscillators are included.
The link: http://www.talkingelectronics.com/projects/200TrCcts/200TrCctsFrontice.html

Jesus

Sound familiar...JT

LED TORCH with 1.5v SUPPLY
This simple circuit will illuminate a super-bright white LED to full brightness with 28mA from a 1.5v cell. The LED is 20,000mcd (20cd @ 15Â° viewing angle) and has an output of approx 1lumen.
The transformer is wound on a small ferrite slug 2.6mm dia and 6mm long. It is made from F29 ferrite material as the circuit operates at a high frequency (100kHz to 500kHz).
The efficiency of the circuit revolves around the fact that a LED will produce a very high output when delivered pulses, but the overall current will be less than a steady DC current.
BC 337 has a collector-emitter voltage of 45v. (BC338 has 25v collector-emitter voltage rating.) The voltage across the transistor is no more than 4v as the LED absorbs the spikes. Do not remove the LED as the spikes from the transformer will damage the transistor.
The circuit will drive 1 or 2 while LEDs in series.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on February 28, 2011, 10:36:24 PM

Quote from: teslaalset on February 17, 2011, 06:12:01 AM
For re-sizing images you could use Irfanview (freeware).
Open the image in irfanview and then press 'CTRL R' and choose a new size.
A good size is 600 wide.
Save it and upload.

Please do.
I don't have a computer, so I can't try and change anything by editing that I see on the post.

--Lee

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on March 01, 2011, 09:30:08 AM

you don't even need to go download a program to re-size images...

http://www.pixlr.com

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: protonmom on March 10, 2011, 02:39:19 PM

Woo Hoo! I cannot believe my luck! Sure hope it holds out a while longer! Today I got ANOTHER garbage bag full of disposable used cameras from the local store! That now makes a total of 575 cameras for me to work on! No excuses anymore. No matter how much I like winding my own toroids, it is time I put some of the cameras to good use. Ist, I just might be calling upon you, and on the other members, too, of course, for some ideas. I just know there is a great project waiting in those cameras!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 11, 2011, 01:02:15 AM

Hard to see in this photo but, this is a 5 gallon water bottle containing 200 leds. I have set this up to run from the grid, and, once I install a modified Fuji, it will run on a single AA battery so it can be taken outside, or anywhere. I just made it tonight and will install the Fuji here in a bit. Then, I will make a video so you can see it better.

It's kind of cool and puts out a good amount of light.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 11, 2011, 04:11:38 AM

Hi everyone i hope i am just paranoid but great earth quake and big waves are coming on the 15 , find high ground shelter and supply's , Japan is already hit .

Feb 20 Nibiru between Jupiter and Mars orbits. 2.48 AU from Earth.

March 4 Nibiru breaks through ecliptic plane for earth change symptoms to increase dramatically. 2.261 AU from Earth.
March 15 Saturn, Nibiru, Earth, Sun, Mars, Jupiter and Uranus are in alignment creating gravity trench for volcano/earthquake/tidal events to escalate (first shaking of Hopi prophecy). First Conjunction. 2.1 AU from Earth.

June 27 Nibiru crosses Mars orbit. 1.789 AU from Earth.

[link to i29.photobucket.com]

Aug 3 Nibiru crosses Earth orbit and Earth reaches Nibiru perigee orbit angle position. 1.489 AU from Earth.

Aug 21 Nibiru crosses Venus orbit. 1.198 AU from Earth.

Sept 11 Nibiru reaches perigee position at Mercury orbit. 0.708 AU from Earth.

Sept 19 Nibiru equidistant from Sun And Earth. 0.523 AU from Earth.

Sept 26 Nibiru passes between Sun and Earth for second alignment (second shaking of Hopi prophecy) for anticipated Geological Pole Shift Event. Second Conjunction. 0.396 AU from Earth.

[link to i29.photobucket.com]

Oct 2 Nibiru at Venus orbit. 0.316 AU from Earth.

Oct 17 Nibiru at Earth orbit and nearest position. 0.232 AU from Earth @ 21.57 million miles.

Nov 14 Nibiru crosses Mars orbit. 0.46 AU from Earth.

Nov 22 Nibiru, Earth and Sun alignment for Pole Shift Reversal Event. Third conjunction 0.58 AU from Earth.

http://www.disclose.tv/forum/nibiru-to-break-through-ecliptic-march-4th-2011-t45622.html

How interesting to see 9/11 on the list 10 years to the day ceremonial sacrifice .

Nothing will happen in 2012 they did not lie , but had to prepare us ...

Peace i truly love you all !

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on March 11, 2011, 09:27:48 AM

@Bill:
That jug does look cool. How long do you think a single AA will keep 200 leds lit?
No problem with the waves here in Costa Rica, yet. Should make it here by 4:40 pm. I live about one foot above high tide level.

@Mk1: I belief this 2012 thing to be a Universal event, and not just with a single planet affecting our local solar system. Time will tell.

The biggest solar flare in years had no affect here. Nor do I suspect that this event today will affect us here.
Hopefully there won't be more earthquakes in the next couple of days.
NickZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: protonmom on March 11, 2011, 01:58:09 PM

My camera numbers have been depleted by 100 as of today. I gave some to the local high school and they are going to have a class there about making energy saving devices. They plan to look in to our forum so I hope everyone can be on their best behavior. Now that the school is getting involved, I will have a lot of competition for the free cameras, but that is okay. It just might be that one of the kids here in this area will discover the all important energy device using what they learn from YOU ....all of you, here at the forum! You will ALL be teachers, so teach them well! Thank you. Oh...and the younger kids are going to be using all the plastic gears and lenses from the cameras to use in their robotic sculptures. So, everyone learns, and everyone shares and we all have fun! ( Let's keep it fun, okay?)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WayneJT on March 20, 2011, 01:21:38 AM

Hi all, this is a great site you guys have here, I have recently got hold of a disposable camera but have no idea what make it is, perhaps someone has a similar board and has a modified JT running from it, if you have can you please direct me to that information, as i am now ready to go beyond the common JT.
thank you
Wayne

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 20, 2011, 04:05:33 AM

Wayne:

Welcome to the group. I could be wrong but that looks to me like a Kodak board. Let's see what the others say. If I am correct, there are instructions on how to modify that type of board back on here somewhere. Or, possibly someone here can tell you...I have never played with that type of board...only the Fuji AA and AAA. (I never did get the AAA one to work.)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on March 20, 2011, 04:51:59 AM

Quote from: WayneCooloongup on March 20, 2011, 01:21:38 AM
Hi all, this is a great site you guys have here, I have recently got hold of a disposable camera but have no idea what make it is, perhaps someone has a similar board and has a modified JT running from it, if you have can you please direct me to that information, as i am now ready to go beyond the common JT.
thank you
Wayne

hi wayne. bill is correct. looks like a kodak board. try looking here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg144465#msg144465

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 20, 2011, 05:04:05 AM

Thank you Wilby. I really appreciate that.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: guruji on March 20, 2011, 09:19:37 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 25, 2011, 06:55:38 PM
Nice job on the charger.

Bill

Thanks Pirate88179 you did great vids too.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 20, 2011, 09:21:58 AM

Quote from: guruji on March 20, 2011, 09:19:37 AM
Thanks Pirate88179 you did great vids too.

Thank you. I really do appreciate your kind words.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on March 20, 2011, 11:17:01 AM

Bill,

Your going to have to hook that 5 gallon water bottle to a balloon and set it free. Then watch the news and see how many UFO reports you get.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 20, 2011, 12:09:06 PM

Quote from: MrMag on March 20, 2011, 11:17:01 AM
Bill,

Your going to have to hook that 5 gallon water bottle to a balloon and set it free. Then watch the news and see how many UFO reports you get.

Yes, that would be fun. I added a top to it and more leds and then, remembered that I had some fiber optic material and added that to the very top and it looks very cool. I still have not added the Fuji JT to it yet but, I know it will work and I can set it outside and it will run for hours on a "dead" battery. It sort of looks like a robot now, ha ha.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 20, 2011, 12:10:23 PM

Quote from: NickZ on March 11, 2011, 09:27:48 AM
@Bill:
That jug does look cool. How long do you think a single AA will keep 200 leds lit?
No problem with the waves here in Costa Rica, yet. Should make it here by 4:40 pm. I live about one foot above high tide level.

@Mk1: I belief this 2012 thing to be a Universal event, and not just with a single planet affecting our local solar system. Time will tell.

The biggest solar flare in years had no affect here. Nor do I suspect that this event today will affect us here.
Hopefully there won't be more earthquakes in the next couple of days.
NickZ

Nick:

I am not totally sure but I believe from experience that a "dead" AA bat. will run this for probably 4 hours or more.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on March 21, 2011, 12:13:26 AM

Bill:
What will the jug do with a new AA, in duration. Using the 5 for a buck toroids? I'd really like to know. Even a guess will do.
The reason that I ask is because several people have mentioned that there is little or no additional load when running many leds off of the secondary coil circuit, compared to the primary on a Jtc.
My experience shows that there is a much shorter run cycle with an increased number of Leds, even when they are on the secondary coil output.
So, what then, would be the best combination when using a single AA battery as input, for best light intensity (no. of Leds?) as well as best duration times.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 21, 2011, 03:33:51 AM

NickZ:

I really don't know if I could make a JT with a 5 for $1 toroid that would run these 200 leds. I believe Jeanna and some others were able to do this as you said using multiple secondaries, which I think we now refer to as pick-up coils. I am making a very small Modified Fuji circuit to run this jug and will have it so it can run off a wall socket or any sized 1.5 volt battery.
As we know, the Fuji is not known for its super efficiency so battery life with this device may not be much longer than 6-10 hours with a new batt. (AA) Of course, a C or D bat. would last longer.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WayneJT on March 21, 2011, 04:35:47 AM

Thank you Wilby and Bill, it seems that I have a Kodak board looking at those pics you sent...will be making a modified JT as soon as time permits, and hope that it will run some decent lighting with my 25v EB's

Thanks Guys

Wayne

Title: Neon is lit!
Post by: protonmom on March 24, 2011, 07:35:53 PM

Jeanna, Bill....et al....

Jeanna, didn't you mention once that you got the neon to light on the fuji? Tonight I got mine to light...it is still lit. It is running off a rechargeable 1.2V ni-Cd, 350mAh.... on a modified fuji camera circuit. I am not sure if it is a good thing, or bad. Doesn't it mean there must be a lot of power coming off the transformer for the neon to light? I think I know how I got it going, but I am not positive. Regardless, it is the first neon I have lit off a AA battery, so it is a little exciting for me, although probably old school for all of you. If you have already talked about the neon somewhere please just direct me to that thread. Thanks. By the way, what can I do with it now-- that I would not have done without the neon?

Edit ONE MORE THING
Among other things, I also have a cfl running off an AA!!!

Title: Re: Neon is lit!
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 24, 2011, 08:26:04 PM

Quote from: protonmom on March 24, 2011, 07:35:53 PM
Jeanna, Bill....et al....

Jeanna, didn't you mention once that you got the neon to light on the fuji? Tonight I got mine to light...it is still lit. It is running off a rechargeable 1.2V ni-Cd, 350mAh.... on a modified fuji camera circuit. I am not sure if it is a good thing, or bad. Doesn't it mean there must be a lot of power coming off the transformer for the neon to light? I think I know how I got it going, but I am not positive. Regardless, it is the first neon I have lit off a AA battery, so it is a little exciting for me, although probably old school for all of you. If you have already talked about the neon somewhere please just direct me to that thread. Thanks. By the way, what can I do with it now-- that I would not have done without the neon?

Edit ONE MORE THING
Among other things, I also have a cfl running off an AA!!!

I have never tried to light a neon form a JT circuit. Nice job. I have lit neons from all of my Bedini motors, one of which was powered by my 2 volts earth battery. I am not sure if it takes power, or just volts at high freqs to light a neon. Or maybe both? I do not really know.

I am currently working on a very small modified Fuji that will fit into a micro cassette case to run my 5 gallon bottle led light. Nothing really new here except the smaller size is all.

Nice job on lighting the cfl from an AA. I never had much luck in doing that. If you can light a cfl, I am very sure you can light up a long 48" tube which will give you more light.

Bill

Title: Re: Neon is lit!
Post by: resonanceman on March 24, 2011, 08:27:07 PM

Quote from: protonmom on March 24, 2011, 07:35:53 PM
Jeanna, Bill....et al....

Jeanna, didn't you mention once that you got the neon to light on the fuji? Tonight I got mine to light...it is still lit. It is running off a rechargeable 1.2V ni-Cd, 350mAh.... on a modified fuji camera circuit. I am not sure if it is a good thing, or bad. Doesn't it mean there must be a lot of power coming off the transformer for the neon to light? I think I know how I got it going, but I am not positive. Regardless, it is the first neon I have lit off a AA battery, so it is a little exciting for me, although probably old school for all of you. If you have already talked about the neon somewhere please just direct me to that thread. Thanks. By the way, what can I do with it now-- that I would not have done without the neon?

Protomom

Sorry I dont think that there is any particular place for information about lighting neons..... the information is scattered all through the thread.
In general it is a landmark more than anything else....... Being able to light a neon means you have over 90V to work with.
One interesting thing about neons...... they have 2 little bars inside them......if the bars are equally lit you have AC .......if one bar is dark you have mostly DC

Have you tried a string of LED christmas tree lights?
If you have over 90V working voltage you should get some light out of at least one string of lights.
Some people tear the string of lights apart and remove the resistors.....I keep it simple......I just use alligator clips and clip them to the prongs of the plug
If you have mostly DC one way will work much better than the other.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: protonmom on March 24, 2011, 08:37:00 PM

Thanks Bill.
The cfl is a 10W. I plan on trying a larger one soon. One of these days I might even get caught up with the rest of you. I have lit small....very small fluorescent tubes, but they were too small for any good use. I do have pictures of my cfl and other lights I have made. I will try to get them resized and posted, maybe tomorrow.

I have found that no matter how tired I am, once I get started on this stuff, I cannot quit. Too much to do, too little time.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: protonmom on March 24, 2011, 08:41:52 PM

Gary, yes, I do have Christmas tree lights, which I do plan to try as soon as possible.
Now, I am speaking of that red neon in the camera circuit...just to clarify things. That is the neon I lit up. Would that take 90V too? I have some larger neons I plan to check out later tonight.

These are just baby steps for me, but we all have to start somewhere. I think I have done pretty darn good, though. I am definitely a lot smarter today than I was back when I first joined this group.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 24, 2011, 08:50:26 PM

Quote from: protonmom on March 24, 2011, 08:41:52 PM
Gary, yes, I do have Christmas tree lights, which I do plan to try as soon as possible.
Now, I am speaking of that red neon in the camera circuit...just to clarify things. That is the neon I lit up. Would that take 90V too? I have some larger neons I plan to check out later tonight.

Some of those boards have a small neon, some of the others I have seen use an led.

One thing we have found with the Fuji, if you can light the small tube, lighting a larger one is easier and brighter. That is one thing I believe Josepino missed in his design. That and not cutting the end of the diode to get the full wave. I was not happy with the light of the little tube but then tried the same JT on a 48" tube and was very pleased. You might try one if you get the chance.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: protonmom on March 24, 2011, 08:59:21 PM

Bill, I think it is a neon because it normally does not light. I could be wrong, though. How do I test? Gary mentioned the ac dc thing. I have a few other neons that are not from any camera board, so will try those, too.
Have you or anyone else ever tried lighting a DEAD fluorescent tube? I have some I might try, but I did read somewhere that someone used dead ones and got light.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 24, 2011, 09:03:37 PM

Yes, I have lit "burned out" tubes i got from the dumpster. With the JT, we are lighting them differently than they were designed to be lit. If one electrode has burned through, just use the other set.

The only way I would know to tell the difference of a small led vs neon is to try to light it with 3 volts...if it lights it is an led.

Gary is correct about the ac/dc thing and both sides of the neon being lighted if it is ac. I believe the Fuji is outputting pulsed dc as far as I know.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 24, 2011, 09:05:05 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on March 24, 2011, 08:50:26 PM
Some of those boards have a small neon, some of the others I have seen use an led.

One thing we have found with the Fuji, if you can light the small tube, lighting a larger one is easier and brighter. That is one thing I believe Josepino missed in his design. That and not cutting the end of the diode to get the full wave. I was not happy with the light of the little tube but then tried the same JT on a 48" tube and was very pleased. You might try one if you get the chance.

Bill

I have not played with camera circuits much.........but it seems to me the circuits with the neons are better than the circuits with the LED.

I just remembered something. I think someone said the best way to modify camera boards is also the easiest.
Just remove the capacitor and bridge across the diode going to the capacitor ...........then give it a try.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: protonmom on March 24, 2011, 09:19:03 PM

Boy oh boy, there is nothing like getting shot down! LOL, I think you were right, Bill. I took a closer look at that red light and it appears to be made just like a led light. Oh well. But why does that particular bulb light up with only one wire? Is that normal?
Well, if it is NOT a neon, then by golly, I will try and try until I finally succeed! I will go look for a neon, and remove all leds from the circuit and try out my known neon bulbs.
Back to the old drawing board.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 24, 2011, 11:50:35 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on March 24, 2011, 09:05:05 PM
I have not played with camera circuits much.........but it seems to me the circuits with the neons are better than the circuits with the LED.

I just remembered something. I think someone said the best way to modify camera boards is also the easiest.
Just remove the capacitor and bridge across the diode going to the capacitor ...........then give it a try.

gary

Gary:

You are right that this is the easiest way to mod a Fuji but I don't think it is the best. Others that did it this way were not getting near as many volts out as doing it the other way...to my recollection anyway, which, of course, may or may not be correct. It also may be exactly the same, I am not really sure now that I think about it.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WayneJT on March 25, 2011, 07:09:43 PM

Hi guys
I have recently got hold of some free cameras from the local photo shop and found a AA fuji amongst them and following WilbyInebriated diagram thanks Wilby for the photo, I have successfully made my first camera jt I am getting around 274vdc or 488v if I hook it up to 2xAA I'm not sure if this will burn out with the extra 1.5v it was free so will continue with the 2xAA, anyone know if this will end up destroying the circuit?

Wayne.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 25, 2011, 07:21:50 PM

Wayne:

Nice job. Did you cut the diode end as well? I ask this because you should be getting closer to 400 volts out with a single AA battery.

I have heard of some folks running these circuits on 3 volts with no problems. If it is going to be on a while, I would touch the transistor to see if it is getting hot...if so, not good. Possibly a heat sink could be rigged up.

Also, did you use a DMM to check your volts out? If so, this is not a reliable way due to the higher frequencies involved and most of those meters are designed to test 60 hz stuff.

With just a single AA, what can you light up? This is a good way to get an idea of the actual output.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WayneJT on March 25, 2011, 07:33:21 PM

Hi Bill
I was wondering about the diode, I did see somewhere way back about cutting it, but was pretty excited about get the volts I am now and as I dont have another fuji yet was a little reluctant to stuff this one up, but will do it as soon as I can find the photo with the info on the diode that was posted somewhere in this topic.
thanks Bill

Wayne.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WayneJT on March 25, 2011, 07:39:29 PM

Bill

I have been using a dmm set to 500v range,I should try out my usb Poscope. Ihave a 6w fluorescent tube that flickered on for a short time and then nothing, the same went for the 10w bulb.

Wayne.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 25, 2011, 08:08:47 PM

Wayne:

It's not the voltage range, it is, or at least may be, the frequency. For example, our little basic JT circuits hand wound on a 1" toroid work at about 20khz or thereabouts. A DMM can not read this in a reliable manner.

However, not being able to light a 10 watt tube is another matter. It should light that up nicely so it is possible that the meter is reading decently.

Bill

PS I have no idea what the freq is of one of our Fuji circuits.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WayneJT on March 25, 2011, 08:50:02 PM

Hi Bill
I am not too sure if I am using the oscope correctly, I am still learning here but it seems like the jt is sitting around 26 kHz with 1xAA connected does this sound right, will snap shot the screen.

Wayne

***PHOTO RE-SIZED BY THE MODERATOR***

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 25, 2011, 09:50:49 PM

Wayne:

That is a nice screen shot there. That sounds about right to me although, as I said, I have never checked the freq. on any of my Fuji's. Jeanna would know as I am sure she has checked hers, and/or maybe someone else here can say.

Did you cut the end of your diode? Or, I think some folks here just shorted it with a jumper. From what I was told, that will give the full wave and, I believe it will increase the output.

On mine, I just cut the end without the silver stripe, and bent the diode up a little off of the circuit board.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WayneJT on March 25, 2011, 11:39:30 PM

Hi Bill

as I could not get to the diode with my cutters I unsoldered the anode side of the diode and then measured the voltage again, it had dropped down to around a volt..I guess that didnt work, I resoldered it back and I'm back up to around 280v..I think I will re-read some of the previous posts and figure this one out.
Thanks for your help Bill, its really appreciated.
Back when I get this fuji working without the diode.

Wayne.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on March 27, 2011, 12:23:52 PM

Hey Wayne, that's a nice instrument you have there, I'll go and take a looksee at one shortly via google.

Hello Bill, I'm hopeing to get some fuji or Kodak boards soon, :) I need to make up some CFL drivers and see how far I can drive them.

Gadget, your welcome, I got a play catch up again.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WayneJT on March 28, 2011, 01:56:31 AM

Hi jim,
I picked this one up from Jaycar ( the Oscope ) for around $178 if I remember correctly, but was on special for $150 the week prior, bummer missed out on that. I got hold of my dads very old dicky smith cro and turned it on once to check out my NS coil that I had in the ground and about half an hour later the thing died, so had to get another, I heard the usb's oscilloscopes were ok, I wouldnt know as I am still working it out.

Have any of you guys had any success with lighting up a string of Leds or cfl's with the Fuji AAA board, I posted earlier that I had the AA but after checking it out again it is definately a AAA, maybe this is why I am only able to get around 280vdc, I also noticed that the board is slightly different to the AA, but I think you guys already knew that. If this AAA board cant light up anything, and I cannot find a Fuji AA board then I think I may have to make a larger coil and hook it up as a secondary, any suggestions on using a Fuji AAA to light up a string of led's or cfl's would be very much appreciated...oh btw I also have some Kodak boards..all AA's are these capable?

Thanks

Wayne.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 28, 2011, 02:11:33 AM

Quote from: WayneCooloongup on March 28, 2011, 01:56:31 AM
Hi jim,
I picked this one up from Jaycar ( the Oscope ) for around $178 if I remember correctly, but was on special for $150 the week prior, bummer missed out on that. I got hold of my dads very old dicky smith cro and turned it on once to check out my NS coil that I had in the ground and about half an hour later the thing died, so had to get another, I heard the usb's oscilloscopes were ok, I wouldnt know as I am still working it out.

Have any of you guys had any success with lighting up a string of Leds or cfl's with the Fuji AAA board, I posted earlier that I had the AA but after checking it out again it is definately a AAA, maybe this is why I am only able to get around 280vdc, I also noticed that the board is slightly different to the AA, but I think you guys already knew that. If this AAA board cant light up anything, and I cannot find a Fuji AA board then I think I may have to make a larger coil and hook it up as a secondary, any suggestions on using a Fuji AAA to light up a string of led's or cfl's would be very much appreciated...oh btw I also have some Kodak boards..all AA's are these capable?

Thanks

Wayne.

Wayne:

I have lit 400 leds (4 strings of 100 each) using the modified Fuji AA. I have run my Christmas lights the past 3 years using this little circuit. The amp draw is fairly high, but not that bad. As i mentioned, I never had any luck with the AAA board, although I know that others have. I have to say that I get more light by lighting two 40 watt 48" tubes with the Fuji. I have done cfl's but I don't like the light output from them for the buck.

You can see this on my youtube videos. I have also lit 400 leds from the Fuji powered by my earth battery only and no AA.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 28, 2011, 02:13:46 AM

Jim:

Great to hear from you Mate. As I just posted to Wayne, try lighting tubes and not cfl's. I have done both and you get way more light from the tubes than the cfl's, in my experience. Of course, I like leds the best, no mercury and all. I hope you are doing well down there and staying warm and dry.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WayneJT on March 28, 2011, 02:35:09 AM

Hi Bill
Wow I am really impressed with the 400 Leds being powered from the EB's. That is also my goal, but 100 will do for now :)

I have watched all of your youtube videos and as usual am always impressed with what can be done these days, it sort of makes me feel like we are entering a new epoch and are very close to discovering something that will change the way we carry out our daily routines

do you remember if anyone has posted any info on secondaries for the Fuji AAA or Kodak AA as I am only on page 59 of this topic and would like to get up to speed with JT circuits

Wayne

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 28, 2011, 03:07:34 AM

Wayne:

The Fuji circuits have a built in secondary. The transformer has a primary and a secondary. There is also a trigger coil that I am not aware of anyone using as it would put out about 2,000 + volts. This is what that large cap fires.

There is no magic to any of these circuits BUT, I do feel that folks are doing some great things that have not been done before, and they are very useful and practical things.

Try to get an AA Fuji even if you have to buy it new. You can use the film (or not) and then use the board. Be advised that we learned that both the AA and the AAA come in the same box. I always open the box to see which one it is before buying. (The Fuji AA has the black switch on the front of the camera.)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WayneJT on March 28, 2011, 03:22:38 AM

Bill

has no one tried to tap into that trigger coil you are talking about...2000 + volts from a 1.5v battery sounds to me like it must be useful for some lighting even if the cap is used.

I will take your advise and go out and buy a Fuji with the black switch as this seems to be the one that lights up all of those Leds.

Wayne

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 28, 2011, 04:04:16 AM

Wayne:

To my knowledge, the problem with the trigger coils is that it needs a large voltage "burst" like it get from the large cap. This only last for a second but that is all it needs. It can not be constantly driven by the transformer, the juice is just not there.

Think of a bucket of water...(the cap) it takes a while to fill it but then you can dump a bunch of water out all at once...but once the bucket is empty...it must be filled again. It can not continue to put out that volume of water continuously.

That is my understanding anyway. I am no expert by any means.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on March 28, 2011, 04:44:54 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on March 28, 2011, 04:04:16 AM
Wayne:

To my knowledge, the problem with the trigger coils is that it needs a large voltage "burst" like it get from the large cap. This only last for a second but that is all it needs. It can not be constantly driven by the transformer, the juice is just not there.

Think of a bucket of water...(the cap) it takes a while to fill it but then you can dump a bunch of water out all at once...but once the bucket is empty...it must be filled again. It can not continue to put out that volume of water continuously.

That is my understanding anyway. I am no expert by any means.

Bill

Spot on Bill, Merv

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 28, 2011, 04:48:10 AM

Merv:

Thank you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: protonmom on March 29, 2011, 12:08:07 PM

It looks to me as though the camera companies recycle the good parts and put them on a new board each time a camera comes back in. I have found you can never tell exactly which board you will get by just looking at the box or the button. Many times I have opened two of the exact same box, and found a different board in each.

I was working on a 230 board by Fuji, and I tried out the trigger coil along with the normal setup. My tester LED lit very brightly and stayed lit for a long time, but then there was suddenly a puff of smoke, which I assume was the trannyâ€¦..but the LED remained lit. I found it odd that the led was still lit even though the tranny had expired. I removed the battery, and felt the components to see if any were hot, but none were. I then tested the transistor, and it showed a reading on both legs with the pos on the base. So, maybe the transistor did NOT fry. Maybe it was the transformerâ€¦but if it was the transformer, then why did the led remain lit after the puff of smoke? Or, did the trigger coil still have enough juice in it to keep the led lit for that period of time until I removed the battery? Or, maybe it was the battery that puffed? But the battery still works. So what was the puff of smoke?

Here is a pic of my latest cfl creationâ€¦.the protonM, using fuji of course! Not bad for a cfl running off an AA battery.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 29, 2011, 12:52:42 PM

Proton:

Very nice light fixture there. That is really cool looking. It looks to be pretty bright too....my cfl's never seemed all that bright to me.

I have no idea what happened on your board. We learned a long time ago that both the AA and the AAA cameras come in the exact same box. I have not seen them mix the boards that have the same switches on the cameras but then, I have not purchased a Fuji in quite some time and it is quite possible that they would do this.

How did you modify your board? Did you remove all of the usual components or, did you wire the output to where the big cap was?

Again, great job on your light. I always like those clear containers that show the insides...to me it makes it more interesting. What did you use for your container?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: protonmom on March 29, 2011, 08:40:16 PM

The cube I used for that cfl light is just a plain, clear cube that slides apart into two sections. I found mine (four of them altogether) at the Goodwill store. I am sure Michael's or some other craft store would carry them. I added the diffuser using hot glue...just swirled it on. The glue gives the cube a rubbery feel and makes it slip proof. I have also used that hot glue on the INSIDE of things, such as light globes and that makes the glass look marbled. I love using the glue because if I make a mistake, I can just peel it off and re-do it.

On the board, it is just the normal modified fuji. No caps, no neon, the side resistor gone, the diode cut. Nothing special about it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: protonmom on March 29, 2011, 08:43:54 PM

And yes...leads to load connected at old large cap solder points.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 29, 2011, 09:59:20 PM

Quote from: protonmom on March 29, 2011, 08:43:54 PM
And yes...leads to load connected at old large cap solder points.

OK, that is what I suspected. That is not the normal Fuji mod, that was an easier alternative thought up from one of our members. I don't think the output is as high doing it that way but, your light looks plenty bright so who cares?

I am working on one now that removes even more of the components and parts of the circuit board. I am trying to make it as small as possible. It seems to work so far as I have received some healthy zaps from it. Should have it completed in a day or two.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 30, 2011, 02:58:30 AM

Here is my completed MiniFuji. It works well and, as best I can tell, is outputting over 500 volts. (It pegged my meter on 500)

I am going to use this on my jug light so I can either plug into the wall, or move it outside and run off of an AA battery. It lights it very well. I will post pics and possibly a video when I get it mounted to the light.

I took everything off of the board that was not needed. I even clipped the board itself and looking at the traces to see if it would break the circuit. This board had a different number on it and it was a bit different from my other ones but, it was not too hard to locate where I need to place the wires. It is really small and the container could have been a lot smaller too but I did not have anything else lying about.

Not a big deal really but it was fun to make as I had 2 Fuji cams new in the box just sitting around for about a year.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: protonmom on March 30, 2011, 11:43:49 AM

Bill,
Indeed that is a MINI fuji! It is somewhat like mine, only you use a cap. I wondered about using that. And what are the two items hanging off the black and red wires to the right of the photo? Are those magnets? What do they do?
I guess we need to see who can come up with a mini mini fuji that is smaller than Bill's creation.
Well done, Bill!
BTW, will your setup fit inside a cfl like mine does? I might try that idea of the magnets and cap.

Edit: magnets=battery holders, right? I have never tried that.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: protonmom on March 30, 2011, 12:12:53 PM

Where would I get those magnet battery holders? (assuming that is what they are)........and also, can someone explain why those magnets would not ruin the battery? I always thought magnets had an adverse effect on batteries.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 30, 2011, 01:07:44 PM

Quote from: protonmom on March 30, 2011, 12:12:53 PM
Where would I get those magnet battery holders? (assuming that is what they are)........and also, can someone explain why those magnets would not ruin the battery? I always thought magnets had an adverse effect on batteries.

Yes, those are the universal battery holders I came up with. I had no idea they were available commercially at that time. With those, I can use a AAA, or AA or C or D battery just by placing the magnets on the ends of the battery....they will hold there very well.

I made them out of some neos (very strong) that I had sitting around. I simply soldered the magnets to the ends of the wires. A word of caution here, neos are sensitive to heat and you can easily get higher than their Curie temperature and render them non-magnetic. That is why I used 2 on each wire.... the first ones I soldered and they did become weak so I magnetically stick the second neo to it and it holds well. I have not seen any problems using magnets on a battery. My Jeanna Light replication (The one in the wooden box) has been using them for over a year. In my Pirate Light device (the one with the 15 watt tube) I even hold the battery to the container using several of these neos. I did find that not all batteries are attracted to the neos on their sides, I am not sure why this is. This makes it very easy to swap out any sized 1.5 volt battery.

I have not tried to place this in the base of a cfl although, I am sure it would fit. I didn't have anything handy but a pen to show the size...it is not much larger than a quarter but, I didn't have one to photo, ha ha.

I am not sure if that cap is helping anything so I left it on the board. It does not hurt anything so, better safe then sorry.

I will make a video once I mount this to the jug light....using magnets again so I can easily take it off any use on another device. This design was to be portable between other devices which is why I used the clips on the output wires and the magnets on the battery inputs.

Thank you for your compliments, I appreciate it. You did a great job with your cfl...you results are much better than I ever achieved with them.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 30, 2011, 07:24:53 PM

Protonmom:

Well, I borrowed...no...I stole your idea of using hot glue in an artistic pattern on the outside of a container for light diffusion...and it works GREAT!!!!!!

I just used like 12 glue sticks decorating my 5 gallon jug light and it it is fantastic if I do say so myself. It looks a lot more like I wanted it to when I decided to build it. It helps to hide the wires inside and really does great things when the lights are on in the bottle.

I will post photos soon.

I made a lights of America LED light today that is being driven by my portable MiniFuji. I don't know if Jeanna or anyone else did this but I did not take it apart, I am driving it by the Edison base and it is very, very bright...hopefully I will not burn anything out. I have an exact duplicate of that bulb in a light fixture on the 120 volt grid and it is half the brightness in my subjective opinion.

I probably need to make a video of all of this.

Bill

PS Thanks for that great idea of the hot glue.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 30, 2011, 11:07:55 PM

Quote from: protonmom on March 29, 2011, 12:08:07 PM
It looks to me as though the camera companies recycle the good parts and put them on a new board each time a camera comes back in. I have found you can never tell exactly which board you will get by just looking at the box or the button. Many times I have opened two of the exact same box, and found a different board in each.

I was working on a 230 board by Fuji, and I tried out the trigger coil along with the normal setup. My tester LED lit very brightly and stayed lit for a long time, but then there was suddenly a puff of smoke, which I assume was the trannyâ€¦..but the LED remained lit. I found it odd that the led was still lit even though the tranny had expired. I removed the battery, and felt the components to see if any were hot, but none were. I then tested the transistor, and it showed a reading on both legs with the pos on the base. So, maybe the transistor did NOT fry. Maybe it was the transformerâ€¦but if it was the transformer, then why did the led remain lit after the puff of smoke? Or, did the trigger coil still have enough juice in it to keep the led lit for that period of time until I removed the battery? Or, maybe it was the battery that puffed? But the battery still works. So what was the puff of smoke?

Here is a pic of my latest cfl creationâ€¦.the protonM, using fuji of course! Not bad for a cfl running off an AA battery.

protonmom

Great work on your light

Its the best looking CFL light I have seen here .

:)

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on March 30, 2011, 11:30:45 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on March 30, 2011, 01:07:44 PM
Yes, those are the universal battery holders I came up with. I had no idea they were available commercially at that time. With those, I can use a AAA, or AA or C or D battery just by placing the magnets on the ends of the battery....they will hold there very well.

I made them out of some neos (very strong) that I had sitting around. I simply soldered the magnets to the ends of the wires. A word of caution here, neos are sensitive to heat and you can easily get higher than their Curie temperature and render them non-magnetic. That is why I used 2 on each wire.... the first ones I soldered and they did become weak so I magnetically stick the second neo to it and it holds well. I have not seen any problems using magnets on a battery. My Jeanna Light replication (The one in the wooden box) has been using them for over a year. In my Pirate Light device (the one with the 15 watt tube) I even hold the battery to the container using several of these neos. I did find that not all batteries are attracted to the neos on their sides, I am not sure why this is. This makes it very easy to swap out any sized 1.5 volt battery.

I have not tried to place this in the base of a cfl although, I am sure it would fit. I didn't have anything handy but a pen to show the size...it is not much larger than a quarter but, I didn't have one to photo, ha ha.

I am not sure if that cap is helping anything so I left it on the board. It does not hurt anything so, better safe then sorry.

I will make a video once I mount this to the jug light....using magnets again so I can easily take it off any use on another device. This design was to be portable between other devices which is why I used the clips on the output wires and the magnets on the battery inputs.

Thank you for your compliments, I appreciate it. You did a great job with your cfl...you results are much better than I ever achieved with them.

Bill

I made a battery holder like that a while back.
I did not like the idea of soldering directly to the magnet ......I found something at electronic goldmine called wire glue......it works pretty good but they recommend you paint it or something.....I coated it with hot glue.
The thing I wish I did different is I used #20 solid core wire......I wish I would have used stranded it would have been more flexable.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 31, 2011, 12:24:27 AM

Gary:

I have seen stuff possibly similar to that...conductive glue, which to me means glue with conductive particles in it. My guess is it is not as good as a solder joint. As I mentioned, I greatly depleted the neos I soldered to, even though I was very careful with the heat, but, the second neos I stuck to them hold very well and then also stick to the battery ends. I guess this is sort of an idiot's work around. I now have used these on several of my projects for about a year or so and thought I had come up with a brilliant idea....and then, I saw a Lidmotor video where he was using the same thing....and also JonnyDavro as well as a few others. Oh well, it was still a good idea, ha ha. I like it as it allows a variety of different batteries to be used and changed out in seconds. I doubt that I will use a battery holder again...too limiting.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nul-points on March 31, 2011, 01:04:31 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on March 31, 2011, 12:24:27 AM
As I mentioned, I greatly depleted the neos I soldered to, even though I was very careful with the heat, but, the second neos I stuck to them hold very well and then also stick to the battery ends.

Bill

hi folks

neat work with the camera boards, all !

v. impressed with protonM's art work on the clear cases, too

...just adding a (hopefully) useful tip here, re: magnetic connections...

i bought several packets of magnetic battery connectors here in the UK a while back (magnet is encased in a metal 'shoe' which has a length of solderable lead from it)

but i just wanted the magnets for a small motor project, so i pulled all the cases off the magnets (destroying the cases in the process)

later i needed to make a circuit connection to swap between different AAA & AA batteries and i wished i hadn't destroyed ALL the mag connectors!! :)

i didn't think i could solder to the magnet, so i used some flat circular solder tags (they look like a washer with a lug at one side) and soldered a wire to the lug

so i was able to get a good stable connection by sandwiching a circular tag between two of the original connector magnets and then the magnets would hold the tags and themselves securely onto each end of the battery

hope this helps - keep up the good work!
np

http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com (http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 31, 2011, 02:21:45 AM

@ All:

I finally made a video of the MiniFuji here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BawwvR5Htk4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BawwvR5Htk4)

I also made a cool Lights Of America light.

This is a cool little portable circuit.

Bill

***EDIT***

I made no mods to the LOA bulb and just used the Edison base directly. It is really, really bright. My video sucks and somehow, my software placed a watermark in the center during some shots even though I purchased it outright 3 years ago. I have to look into that.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 31, 2011, 06:45:40 AM

I have been burning this light all night and I really love it. It is darn bright!!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: CompuTutor on March 31, 2011, 07:28:26 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on March 31, 2011, 12:24:27 AM
I have seen stuff possibly similar to that...conductive glue,
which to me means glue with conductive particles in it.

Rear window defroster epoxy works fine

And if you can't get AVS to import your registration file properly,
put any picture at the beginning of the timeline,
set the duration of the pic for exactly one minute,
then after you make the vid, trim the first minute off...

Viola, no watermark...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 31, 2011, 07:34:13 AM

Quote from: CompuTutor on March 31, 2011, 07:28:26 AM
Rear window defroster epoxy works fine

And if you can't get AVS to import your registration file properly,
put any picture at the beginning of the timeline,
set the duration of the pic for exactly one minute,
then after you make the vid, trim the first minute off...

Viola, no watermark...

Hey, thank you for the tip, I will try that. I have no idea why the software decided now that I am not registered, after 3 years....I love workarounds...thank you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on March 31, 2011, 09:39:09 AM

Hi all

First to Protonmom, thats a great looking CFL you have there, it's nice and bright, the clear case is a great idea, it's very well presented, how long does the AA battery work for? I like it.

Bill, you are doing a great job making the parts fit into a smaller area, I was looking at the jpg you posted with the flying leads, it could be made half that size again by using surface mounted parts.
You would need magnifying glasses and tweezers though, a dollop of glue holds the bits together while you solder them up.

Wayne, good luck with that info I PM'ed you on (Jaycar), I am looking forward to see how you get along with it.

About me here
I'm back home, but there is only bare boards, I'm still recovering from the floods that hit me, got nothing to work with (parts) as they were either destroyed by flood, washed away out of the house or some kind soles helping me threw them away like what happened with my phone, there was a lot going on and still is.

I'm still in recovery mode and it will be a fair while until I get back into doing anything.

Just want to say thanks to everyone here who I have been in contact with, by letter, phone or PM or emails, it's been pritty hard and I don't recomend the experience to anyone.

This thread has got the gallops again, look at the speed it's going lol.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: protonmom on March 31, 2011, 05:43:15 PM

@electricme,
I really don't know how long the battery will last as I have a switch on the light and intended to only turn it on when needed. However, I do have plenty of batteries at hand, so I will go ahead right now and turn on the light, and see how long it will stay lit.
4:42 pm March 31 light is now on
@all
I have to get some of those UK battery magnets! I tried to solder some today, and YUP, Bill was right...heat destroys magnets! Duh....
Two magnets are now gone, but at least I saw for myself what NOT to do with them.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: protonmom on March 31, 2011, 06:24:18 PM

Quote from: electricme on March 31, 2011, 09:39:09 AM

... I was looking at the jpg you posted with the flying leads, it could be made half that size again by using surface mounted parts.
You would need magnifying glasses and tweezers though, a dollop of glue holds the bits together while you solder them up.

jim

Jim, in the box of cameras I am sending to you, I am including a few boards which have the surface mount components on the back. I hope you can figure them out, as I sure have not been able to, yet. Hope you have a lot of patience! Maybe your microscope will come in handy with those boards.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 01, 2011, 02:16:00 AM

Quote from: protonmom on March 31, 2011, 05:43:15 PM
@electricme,
I really don't know how long the battery will last as I have a switch on the light and intended to only turn it on when needed. However, I do have plenty of batteries at hand, so I will go ahead right now and turn on the light, and see how long it will stay lit.
4:42 pm March 31 light is now on
@all
I have to get some of those UK battery magnets! I tried to solder some today, and YUP, Bill was right...heat destroys magnets! Duh....
Two magnets are now gone, but at least I saw for myself what NOT to do with them.

That's still ok. You can use another magnet like I did that will stick to both the "dead" magnet and the battery ends. I found this out the hard way but, it still works great.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WayneJT on April 01, 2011, 03:26:49 AM

@All

I hope I am not too off topic here but I found this Circuit in the Silicon Chip magazine September 2010, thank you Jim, and will post it here in case anyone would like to have a look at it, it may or may not help in some way, its called the Magnetic pole and flux strength indicator, which could help with NS coils and gives a rough indication of the magnetic flux of a magnet.

wayne.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 01, 2011, 07:21:08 AM

@protonmom
Thanks for offerring the camera boards, the microscope will make it much easier to identify what each component actually is. I will post here the results to benifit everyone here.

On the CFL experiment you began yesterday, hows it going so far?

@Wayne
Thanks for posting the circuit, I intend to built it, but it will be quite some time away though.

@Bill,
Thanks for your offer to help me out this morning, it's much appreceated.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: protonmom on April 01, 2011, 12:58:06 PM

I have been having trouble posting anything. Keep getting bumped off. I go to post and then my message is deleted and I have to start all over again. Therefore it is hard to even try to get any messages to the forum.
The battery died out fully, somewhere between 8pm and 9pm. I fell asleep so I am not sure exactly when it went dead. But shouldn't the battery have lasted a lot longer than that? Of course, it was used, and I don't know how old it was....and I didn't even think to check the voltage before turning on the light. At any rate, I did manage to get a few hours of light off that AA.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: protonmom on April 02, 2011, 03:03:10 AM

I replaced the battery in the protonM light and it has been running for 4 hours now and is still lit the same. I cannot stay up any longer tonight (this morning, actually) so it will go out sometime while I am sleeping again. The voltage, btw, was 1.46 on this battery before I turned the light back on.

Since I have only made it to around page 59 on the Jule thief forum (as far as catch up reading) I am really way behind. But someday I will eventually get caught up. Meanwhile, does anyone know if there is a way I can add something to the fuji circuit to make the battery last longer? Or, if this has been covered, can you give me the page number so I can look it up? Thanks.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 02, 2011, 03:57:30 AM

@Protonmom,

Several things can be done to help make a battery last longer, the temperature of the battery, if it's very cold it won't put out as much energy.
If it's a nicad, then it may be sufferring from memory effect, to fix that place a simple torch light bulb on it and let it drain, when the light goes out remove the battery and let it stand a half hour and try again, do this a few times and then recharge it.
If the cell has dendrites inside, blow them out by charging a 16volt 1000uF capacitor up and discharge the cap into the battery (watch out for the polarity) sometimes fixes it, do that about 3 times, if it comes good, then you saved your battery. Just don't touch both of the caps wires with the fingers or it will discharge through them.

Switch your multimeter to Amps (low range), move one of the probe leads to the correct socket (amps) leave the black or neg lead in the same socket, place the multimeter in series with a fully charged battery + and you should then read off the current that is being drawn from the battery.

A data logger would be the best choice but they are a bit scarce, even down my way, maybe there is someone out there who has a free software datalogger they can point us to.

Substitute a C or a D size single cell to drive the CFL, that will make it light much longer, but I think we just want to use the AA cells.

Miniaturising the electronics (using SMD devices) can also lower the current being drawn.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 02, 2011, 08:32:20 AM

Hi everybody!
My Pc machine is erratic.

What I have been trying to do with the camera circuit is to make it run the cfl and charge the yellow cap that is on the circuit at the same time, then find a way to discharge it through a diode to the battery's positive terminal.

Maybe somebody with more experience with electronics can do it.

********

I did a test with my old pvc motor. I ran the motor with a circuit I had that converted 1.5v to 12 volts.

While the motor was running I took the diode used to charge a battery and touched the 1.5v battery's positive terminal. Instantly the battery was recovered to its full voltage.

If I let the diode connected, the battery went down, But if I just touch it once in a while it recovered its voltage fully.

That is the circuit we need to build.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 02, 2011, 02:55:26 PM

Protonmom:

Jim is correct. Also, you could increase the value of the resistor used in the circuit. This will lower the power going into the circuit but also lower the output. You could also use instead a Variable Resistor and adjust for brightness vs amp draw and find the sweet spot. I use C batteries on 2 of my light devices and they last a very long time. All of the other I use an AA battery, but I get them for free so it does not matter to me. (I use "dead" ones that others would throw away)

Jesus:

That sounds like a very interesting circuit. Do you have a schematic you could post of your idea?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on April 02, 2011, 07:59:09 PM

Quote from: protonmom on April 02, 2011, 03:03:10 AM
I replaced the battery in the protonM light and it has been running for 4 hours now and is still lit the same. I cannot stay up any longer tonight (this morning, actually) so it will go out sometime while I am sleeping again. The voltage, btw, was 1.46 on this battery before I turned the light back on.

Since I have only made it to around page 59 on the Jule thief forum (as far as catch up reading) I am really way behind. But someday I will eventually get caught up. Meanwhile, does anyone know if there is a way I can add something to the fuji circuit to make the battery last longer? Or, if this has been covered, can you give me the page number so I can look it up? Thanks.

Protonmom

I think the best thing that you could to to make your lights last longer is to make a ringer.

I have been playing with the ringer circuit off and on for a while now....my best only rings a few seconds....... but I will get there.

Once I get my ringer to run quite a while I am going to try to drive it with a JT.
If you put a large cap......like 5 to 10MF then crank up the resistance in the tank many JTs will blink an array of LEDs like a strobe.......one fast bright flash every few seconds.
It sounds perfect for pulse charging the cap of the ringer .

I am thinking that the caps that work well for the ringer should be ideal for converting pulses into usable power.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on April 02, 2011, 08:09:22 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on April 02, 2011, 08:32:20 AM
Hi everybody!
My Pc machine is erratic.

What I have been trying to do with the camera circuit is to make it run the cfl and charge the yellow cap that is on the circuit at the same time, then find a way to discharge it through a diode to the battery's positive terminal.

Maybe somebody with more experience with electronics can do it.

********

I did a test with my old pvc motor. I ran the motor with a circuit I had that converted 1.5v to 12 volts.

While the motor was running I took the diode used to charge a battery and touched the 1.5v battery's positive terminal. Instantly the battery was recovered to its full voltage.

If I let the diode connected, the battery went down, But if I just touch it once in a while it recovered its voltage fully.

That is the circuit we need to build.

Jesus

Jesus

I hope that you post more about this circuit

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 02, 2011, 08:16:53 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on April 02, 2011, 02:55:26 PM
.
.
.
Jesus:

That sounds like a very interesting circuit. Do you have a schematic you could post of your idea?

Bill

I modified the cfl original circuit on the graphic. It shows the idea I have been trying to implement.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 02, 2011, 08:20:25 PM

@ All:

I found this over on hackaday.com. It is a pcb board project without the board. I think this idea might help us get the Fuji circuit as small as possible. If anyone is interested, I can come back and add the link but it is over on their site. ***EDIT*** Link:http://hackaday.com/2011/03/31/pcbs-without-any-substrate/ (http://hackaday.com/2011/03/31/pcbs-without-any-substrate/)

@ Jesus:

Thanks. That looks to be very interesting.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 02, 2011, 08:22:02 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on April 02, 2011, 08:09:22 PM
Jesus

I hope that you post more about this circuit

gary

The other circuit that converts 1.5v to 12 volts is on the feedback to the source topic.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 02, 2011, 08:25:12 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on April 02, 2011, 08:20:25 PM
@ All:

I found this over on hackaday.com. It is a pcb board project without the board. I think this idea might help us get the Fuji circuit as small as possible. If anyone is interested, I can come back and add the link but it is over on their site. ***EDIT*** Link:http://hackaday.com/2011/03/31/pcbs-without-any-substrate/ (http://hackaday.com/2011/03/31/pcbs-without-any-substrate/)

@ Jesus:

Thanks. That looks to be very interesting.

Bill

Very cool!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 02, 2011, 10:40:10 PM

@Protonmom,

Quote from: Pirate88179 on April 02, 2011, 02:55:26 PM
use instead a Variable Resistor and adjust for brightness vs amp draw and find the sweet spot.
/quote]

Bills right too, remove the resistor that is on the base of the transistor, for arguments sake lets say it is 1000ohm, then get a 5000 ohm pot or Tpot (miniture pot, adjustable by screwdriver) solder the base leg of the transistor to the center leg of the pot, and solder one of the outer legs of the pot to the other end where the resistor used to be going to.

If the results are dissapointing, use a 2.5k pot, you might find you would need a much higher resisterance pot.

Once you have it working, and know the resistance which is to your satisfaction, measure the resistance with the multimeter, and substitute the pot for that value resistor, later on you could put in a 3 position switch and use it as a on/off switch, Low to Hi brightness, lots of possabilities there.

To get the "sweet" spot as Bill calls it, rotate the pot shaft up or down a few times until your CFL is at the brightness level you want, at the same time look at the current draw from the battery, it will probably be a bit of a compromise between current and CFL brightness.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 02, 2011, 11:22:06 PM

@Jesus

I think what you are trying to do is good in running a CFL and to charge the battery at the same time, but the problem will be to allow the CFL to put out sufficant brightness and have enough power avaliable to charge the battery.

You could have the CFL switching on and off so fast that it wouldn't be noticed by the eyes (saves power also) and when the transformer turns off capture the EMP and feed it back to the battery.

First of all, you would notice the CFL will work longer, then refineing the circuit should bring success, the goal being making it to work all the time.

Reading the last 2 pages of postings has been jogging my memory where some people managed to recharge a battery while running a small electric motor, they modified the armature winding contacts (snapped off the contact tag where the wire was soldered to the copper segment) so at every 3rd pole there was a small spark which automatically sent energy back into the battery. During this moment in time there was no current being drawn out of the battery and momentum carried the armature to the next segment so it was being kicked at every revolution, which is frequency.
Th faster the armature rotates per second, the more energy is avaliable, eventually there is more energy to charge the battery so it all keeps running.

You could do the same thing by using a 555 IC as a vibrator to switch two seperate transistors, either on to off in a flip flop fashion, let the CFL be switched on by TR1, when TR1 is off, harvest the BEMF from the transformer through TR2 to the battery.

Gary's idea of a ringer circuit should work as well.

I could be wrong here, but I think John Bedini drew up a circuit where one part of the circuit needed to be off or the battery couldn't be charged.

You mentioning here about only charging the battery by touching the battery with the diode working a split second has got me thinking about it all.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 03, 2011, 03:57:44 AM

Jim:

I like your idea of the pulses. To me, pulses are always good. I was just reading on another topic of the high dielectric strength of water and had maybe a crazy idea? What if I were to take some of my clear plastic tubing and form it into a ring, fill it with water, and seal it? And then, yes you guessed it, wind it as a toroid? A water filled toroid. At first glance, one might think that water would not have any magnetic properties but then, neither does air and folks use air cores all of the time. One might even try filing it up with a ferro-fluid just to see what happens.

I don't know....just thinking out loud over here. When I get a chance, I will give it a go. If it works, then anyone, anywhere could make their own toroids and even vary the properties easily.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 03, 2011, 04:52:43 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on April 03, 2011, 03:57:44 AM
Jim:

I like your idea of the pulses. To me, pulses are always good. I was just reading on another topic of the high dielectric strength of water and had maybe a crazy idea? What if I were to take some of my clear plastic tubing and form it into a ring, fill it with water, and seal it? And then, yes you guessed it, wind it as a toroid? A water filled toroid. At first glance, one might think that water would not have any magnetic properties but then, neither does air and folks use air cores all of the time. One might even try filing it up with a ferro-fluid just to see what happens.

I don't know....just thinking out loud over here. When I get a chance, I will give it a go. If it works, then anyone, anywhere could make their own toroids and even vary the properties easily.

Bill

I think this is a excellent idea because ferro-fluids material is composed also of oil , since oil and water don't mix the ferro fluid should react like a super fluid .

As long as the water is not ice , air should also be removed .

Btw , nice to see you all here .

You are still surviving down there in the land of Oz , Electric Jim .

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 03, 2011, 04:59:43 AM

Thanks Mark.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 03, 2011, 09:43:05 AM

Quote from: electricme on April 02, 2011, 11:22:06 PM
@Jesus

I think what you are trying to do is good in running a CFL and to charge the battery at the same time, but the problem will be to allow the CFL to put out sufficant brightness and have enough power avaliable to charge the battery.

You are right!

Quote

You could have the CFL switching on and off so fast that it wouldn't be noticed by the eyes (saves power also) and when the transformer turns off capture the EMP and feed it back to the battery.

First of all, you would notice the CFL will work longer, then refineing the circuit should bring success, the goal being making it to work all the time.

I dont know how to make the cfl to switch faster with the original circuit.

Quote
Reading the last 2 pages of postings has been jogging my memory where some people managed to recharge a battery while running a small electric motor, they modified the armature winding contacts (snapped off the contact tag where the wire was soldered to the copper segment) so at every 3rd pole there was a small spark which automatically sent energy back into the battery. During this moment in time there was no current being drawn out of the battery and momentum carried the armature to the next segment so it was being kicked at every revolution, which is frequency.
Th faster the armature rotates per second, the more energy is avaliable, eventually there is more energy to charge the battery so it all keeps running.

I also read about that a few years back but have not implemented it.

Quote
You could do the same thing by using a 555 IC as a vibrator to switch two seperate transistors, either on to off in a flip flop fashion, let the CFL be switched on by TR1, when TR1 is off, harvest the BEMF from the transformer through TR2 to the battery.

Can you post a schematic?

Quote
Gary's idea of a ringer circuit should work as well.

I could be wrong here, but I think John Bedini drew up a circuit where one part of the circuit needed to be off or the battery couldn't be charged.

You mentioning here about only charging the battery by touching the battery with the diode working a split second has got me thinking about it all.

jim

I will find the circuit that converts 1.5v to 12v and post it here, pointing out where the sudden connection circuit is needed. (a switcher that connects the diode output for a fraction of a second once in a while).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 03, 2011, 08:47:13 PM

This is the circuit that when you touch the positive of the 1.5v battery with the coil output diode it gets charged instantly. If you let the wire connected the motor stops.

A circuit that make the touch automatically is needed.

Any ideas?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 03, 2011, 08:52:26 PM

@nivesoliveras and others

The flip flop sends a high (which is a positive voltage) from it's output, which can be used to switch on a transistor. After a preset time, it will then cycle off, the on-off times in the circuit are generally fixed, but it is possible to have it adjustable for the mark space ratios (the ON times and OFF times) to be made longer or shorter.

Here is a link to a site that gives a very good explanation for those who don't know what a Flip Flop thingie is all about. It has a PCB that has been populated, there are very few parts involved and this one is very basic, it has no way to control the times when the LED is on or Off, these have been are fixed by the designer via the chosen resistor and the capacitors. They are chosen because they give reliable starting of the circuit which can be tricky sometimes

The circuit can also be used as the main section to drive a iron core transformer to make a UPS, but that's for another day :)

http://electropart.info/schematic-diagrams/led-flip-flop-project.html

To alter the times that the LEDs are On and Off, you need to increase or decrease the value of the resistors or the capacitors separately, or you can change all of them.
You cannot alter the 470R resistors as these are required as a current limiter for the LEDs, but you can change the values of the 10K ohm resistors, I would change the 10K resistors to a 1000 ohm resistor and insert a 10k pot between the top of the resistor and the positive voltage supply rail. The 1k ohm resistor serves as a buffer between the transistors base so it won't be fed too higher a voltage.
You could also place a 10k ohm pot across the electrolytics, setting the wiper to the high or low side will either make the LED be on for shorter or longer times.
You could instead use a BC548 or a 22222 etc etc transistor.

The circuit as seen switches ON and OFF the two leds alternatively, what we need to do is use the circuit to feed pulses to a larger transistor (BD139) to switch on and off two circuits, the first one being the supply powering the CFL battery, the other switching the charging circuit.

So if the CFL can be made to turn on and off faster than we can see it happening it will give the impression it is always ON, during the OFF times the back EMF from the collapsing magnetic fields in the coil can be used to recharge the battery driving the CFL, this should be able to extend the time that the CFL can be driven by the battery.

One thing to remember though, this circuit is designed to work with 9v DC, we need to make it work with 1.5 volt DC.
That's the challenge.

Suggestions,
The LEDs could be removed, and a wire link be inserted in it's place (takes care of the 3v that is necessary to make the LED fire up). Without the LEDs it should be possible to make this circuit perform at a much lower voltage, the transistor turn on at .6 of a volt, use geraniums to bring this lower to .2 volt if necessary.
Make sure the transistor chosen can handle hi spikes though.

Take the Hi at the base of each transistor (leave the transistor in circuit) by soldering a wire from it to the base of another transistor, or solder a wire from the collector to go to the base of another transistor (BD139)

Feed the 1.5 volt through the collector of the BD139 and take the switched Hi (1.5v) out to drive the CFL

Do bacilly the same with the 2nd transistor from the flip flop that drives another BD139 whose Collector is soldered to the output coil and the emitter is soldered to the Pos of the 1.5 volt battery supply.

I haven't done this as I haven't got the bits here to see if it works, but it may or may not work, only one way to find out is to give it a go.

Testing the flip flop
A scope (CRO) connect the earth clip to the Negative side of the battery, the tip to the base of the small transistor/s will show you if the Hi pluses are on the output, connect the probe to the BD139 emitters and you should see the same pluses there also, that tells you the FLIP FLOP is working and the BD139's are firing (switching) OK, and you would be able to see the mark space ratios as well.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 03, 2011, 09:01:14 PM

Here is the circuit, only the modified Flip Flop.
The LEDS are removed, the resistors that used to be used for the LEDs can now be of a lower resistance value.

There are 2 parallel outputs marked in Green and Blue, you can select either to drive the bases of the BD139s that are not seen here.
Take the Negative and common it to the CFL

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 03, 2011, 09:11:17 PM

A small modification to my last circuit.

I have now shown the POTs which are placed "across" the electrolytics, adjusting the settings to the left will make the capacitor take longer to discharge, moving the wiper to the right will shorten the times of discharge.

Setting either wiper differently will allow you to switch on and off the BD139s at what ever times you wat them to be on and off for.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 03, 2011, 09:16:38 PM

Thanks @electricme!

I bought one of those flip flop flashers last year and have not assembled it waiting to get some transistor sockets, so I can change different transistors.
Also I will get sockets for the caps. The frequency can be changed using different capacitor values too.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on April 03, 2011, 09:26:30 PM

Jesus

Thanks for posting your schematic.

I am not sure that I understand all of it.....but I think I got most of it down.

I am not sure why you have the "push to charge" switch where you have it.

Is the neon light just for overvoltage protection?
If so it might be possible to replace it with another coil.
Another camera transformer or a JT wound for lightings CFLs might do.

I am thinking that if the output of your trigger coil was hooked up to the secondary of a fairly high impedance coil ( in series ) the new coil will make the circuit higher impedance and probably add a little kick of its own.
The primary could be hooked to a bridge and used for feedback.
Here is the tricky part... the voltage of the place you connect the feddback to is important.
As long as the spike in your primary winding is less voltage than the voltage of the part of the circuit it is connected to the primary will have very little effect........once the voltage of the spike goes over that voltage most of the extra voltage will become feedback

In other words the spike will be clipped by the bridge.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 03, 2011, 09:29:45 PM

Thanks Jesus,

Here is the last section of the circuit.
I forgot to show the arrow pointer on the lower transistor, it should be to the left arm that goes to the diode on the Pos rail.

Have you found your 1.5 to 12 volt circuit and post it please.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 03, 2011, 09:51:30 PM

Jesus:

Here is another section on how I think you can "tap" into the high voltage section with another HI V transformer, just add another HV transformer into the Hi tension out put, you will need a transistor that can handle 5Kv or more, maybe a fly back transistor in a TV set, then feed the HV into the top of the transformer and take out the Lower voltage from the decondary and feed it back to the battery via a diode and the BD139.

Bothe the bases of the BD139 and the HV reansistor are connected together so they both turn on in sync, we might have to place a small electrolytic after the lo voltage diode coming out of the transformer so it can soak up any excess residude voltage and it can be dumped into the battery.

I see this working the same as if someone wanted to feed electrical energy from an aerial antenna and fed it into the tower of the ignition coil, andyou then take the energy out from the low tension or secondary section to charge up a battery.

This "may" be able to charge up a 12v car battery if it can raise 14 volts at 2-5 amps.
Wishful thinking ha ha.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 03, 2011, 09:52:32 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on April 03, 2011, 09:26:30 PM
Jesus

Thanks for posting your schematic.

I am not sure that I understand all of it.....but I think I got most of it down.

I am not sure why you have the "push to charge" switch where you have it.

Is the neon light just for overvoltage protection?
If so it might be possible to replace it with another coil.
Another camera transformer or a JT wound for lightings CFLs might do.

I am thinking that if the output of your trigger coil was hooked up to the secondary of a fairly high impedance coil ( in series ) the new coil will make the circuit higher impedance and probably add a little kick of its own.
The primary could be hooked to a bridge and used for feedback.
Here is the tricky part... the voltage of the place you connect the feddback to is important.
As long as the spike in your primary winding is less voltage than the voltage of the part of the circuit it is connected to the primary will have very little effect........once the voltage of the spike goes over that voltage most of the extra voltage will become feedback

In other words the spike will be clipped by the bridge.

gary

If the circuit you are refering to is the cfl original modified. The neon is suposed to act as the triger switch when it gets to its conducting voltage.

It is supposed to send a very high voltage to the input battery and recharge it.
The problem is that maybe it switch to fast or that it stay lit and the circuit stops.
When I am trying to reply now the text scrolls up and down crazily I dont know what is happening.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 03, 2011, 09:59:26 PM

Jesus:

I see what you mean, no, there is no push to charge switch in my circuit (hand drawn circuits) I think you are refering to the yellow diagram, no, in my drawing1st drawing above, there is 2 Green and 2 Blue dollops of marks, I forgot to say you can take the pulces from either of the BLUE or the GREEN points to feed to the switching transistors, you can take your pick to what works the best for you.
Sorry if I wasn't clear about that before.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 03, 2011, 10:00:04 PM

Quote from: electricme on April 03, 2011, 09:29:45 PM
Thanks Jesus,

Here is the last section of the circuit.
I forgot to show the arrow pointer on the lower transistor, it should be to the left arm that goes to the diode on the Pos rail.

Have you found your 1.5 to 12 volt circuit and post it please.

jim

The circuit is already posted on the page 998. One page before this one.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 03, 2011, 10:04:09 PM

I will wait that the things get settled down a few minutes.
I think that we are getting confused with the postings here.

There are @electricme, @resonanceman and @nievesoliveras posting at the same time and we are getting confused.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 03, 2011, 10:11:54 PM

Jesus:

Sounds like your monitor is playing up.

Look for the VERTICAL adjustment T-Pot on the main board inside the monitor and give it a slight adjustment, I think that will fix the problem for you.

Sounds to me there is a temperature problem inside your monitor.

jim

I sent you an email

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 03, 2011, 10:17:31 PM

Quote from: electricme on April 03, 2011, 10:11:54 PM
Jesus:

Sounds like your monitor is playing up.

Look for the VERTICAL adjustment T-Pot on the main board inside the monitor and give it a slight adjustment, I think that will fix the problem for you.

Sounds to me there is a temperature problem inside your monitor.

jim

I sent you an email

What is jumping up and down is the box where you write the reply.

Again. The 1.5v to 12v circuit is on the page 998. A page before this one.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 03, 2011, 10:19:24 PM

Gary:
I wasn't paying too much attention just before to who was posting, I was thinking about the 2nd coil and using another one in reverse fashion and assumed it was Jesus who asken me.

Sorry about the mix up.

Hope Jesus can fix his monitor, I have to be on my way to town shortly or I won't have any dinner to eat tonight. ;D

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on April 03, 2011, 10:25:02 PM

Wayne

It looks like this is a commercial version of your circuit

http://www.magnet4less.com/product_info.php?products_id=397

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on April 03, 2011, 10:37:57 PM

Quote from: electricme on April 03, 2011, 10:19:24 PM
Gary:
I wasn't paying too much attention just before to who was posting, I was thinking about the 2nd coil and using another one in reverse fashion and assumed it was Jesus who asken me.

Sorry about the mix up.

Hope Jesus can fix his monitor, I have to be on my way to town shortly or I won't have any dinner to eat tonight. ;D

jim

Jim

Lots of confusion here today

I was talking about the yellow schematic Jesus posted .

It looks like you had the same idea I did.........but for a different circuit

:)

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: protonmom on April 04, 2011, 12:47:09 AM

Today I learned the hard way not to trust everything you buy on ebay. I had a few very nice working boards from the fuji, each with a different configuration. I was so proud of them. Then two of them stopped working. I was disgusted after all that work. So I took those two apart literally destroying them, but I figured, why not since they had quit on me. THEN I DISCOVERED THE TRUTH. Those darn alligator clips I bought on ebay were not working. I had the thought to test them for continuity, and sure enough, it was the alligators, not the boards, that were at fault. Erghhh.....

Now another thing. I told you before I got the neon working, and then I found out it was an led. Well, when I was playing around with the boards, I got the LED so red, I thought it might burn up. Then I took a neon...a much larger neon than normal, and IT lit up. However, at the same time, the cfl bulb would not light up. So, why would a NEON work, and not a bulb? (cfl) The bulb does work....I have been using it all day....and it still works. By the way, only one side of the neon lit. Someone said why that was, I think, but I don't know where to look for that post. So, why would the neon light up only on one side? And it was a very bright light, too.
And the purpose of the neon was what? To keep the high power from blowing stuff?
At least I have not had any shocks yet...knock on wood.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 04, 2011, 01:06:50 AM

Quote from: protonmom on April 04, 2011, 12:47:09 AM
Today I learned the hard way not to trust everything you buy on ebay. I had a few very nice working boards from the fuji, each with a different configuration. I was so proud of them. Then two of them stopped working. I was disgusted after all that work. So I took those two apart literally destroying them, but I figured, why not since they had quit on me. THEN I DISCOVERED THE TRUTH. Those darn alligator clips I bought on ebay were not working. I had the thought to test them for continuity, and sure enough, it was the alligators, not the boards, that were at fault. Erghhh.....

Now another thing. I told you before I got the neon working, and then I found out it was an led. Well, when I was playing around with the boards, I got the LED so red, I thought it might burn up. Then I took a neon...a much larger neon than normal, and IT lit up. However, at the same time, the cfl bulb would not light up. So, why would a NEON work, and not a bulb? (cfl) The bulb does work....I have been using it all day....and it still works. By the way, only one side of the neon lit. Someone said why that was, I think, but I don't know where to look for that post. So, why would the neon light up only on one side? And it was a very bright light, too.
And the purpose of the neon was what? To keep the high power from blowing stuff?
At least I have not had any shocks yet...knock on wood.

Neon lit on one side means DC, AC will light both sides.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WayneJT on April 04, 2011, 04:35:46 AM

Quote from: resonanceman on April 03, 2011, 10:25:02 PM
Wayne

It looks like this is a commercial version of your circuit

http://www.magnet4less.com/product_info.php?products_id=397

gary

Thank you Gary
if I can find this product in Oz it will save me some time, which means more time playing with JT's.

Wayne

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 04, 2011, 07:24:23 AM

@protonmom,

Sorry to hear about your trouble with the camera boards failing, we all have stories about buying something electrical and it doesn't perform as it's intended.

Some kind sole gifted me a toaster, electric jug and a digital clock radio to replace those that I lost in the floods.
The Toaster wont click and stay down, I need to keep holding the leaver, yesterday I filled the jug to boil some water, it wouldn't turn off, but it will turn off when it's about 1/3rd full.

Today I needed to recharge my AA nicads so I pull out my rechargeable light I keep on the back shelf of my car and try charging with the solar cell. The batts remain flat, time to pull apart the circuit, I discover the copper track on the positive input is broken, I soldered across the broken track and try again, still no go. I test the socket where the solar panel plugs in to the PCB, the negative side inside the socket is broken, so I cut off the plug, and directly solder the wires to the PCB, it's now fixed and working.

During the floods here, I had some help with tidying up soggy mud caked stuff, one of the things suffering from this was the remote control for my TV set, my son in law found it holding it proudly up, I asked him to remove the batteries and left him to it.
Saw him later on and asked him, where is the remote and where are the batteries? I put the remote here "dad" he says, the batteries I threw away in the heep outside, hmmm they were expensive rechargeable NiCads lol.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 04, 2011, 08:01:14 AM

Quote from: protonmom on April 04, 2011, 12:47:09 AM
Erghhh.....

Now another thing. ... Well, when I was playing around with the boards, I got the LED so red, I thought it might burn up. Then I took a neon...a much larger neon than normal, and IT lit up. However, at the same time, the cfl bulb would not light up. So, why would a NEON work, and not a bulb? (cfl) ...

It is simple. The current flows where there is less resistance.
The space between the neon filaments is less than rhe space between the cfl filaments.
Less space means less resistance.
The current choses the neon and the circuit has not enoufg juice to light both devices.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 04, 2011, 08:08:11 AM

Maybe I made a mistake on posting my 1.5v to 12v circuit on page 998.

But I thought that because it was just to build a switching circuit to give a signal to a transistor with the 11.46v output from the coil to just hit the 1.5v battery and stop inmediately the transistor was an easy task to some members that play with electronics everyday.
I was wrong, nobody paid attention.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 04, 2011, 09:28:15 AM

@Jesus,

Thankyou for your PM, just now ;).

I think that it wasn't anyone paying attention, but it's the times where we live, I am about to go to bed as it's getting towards midnight, and I still have a April copy of Silicon Chip to read up.
I just looked at the Day Night map on my desktop and I see USA is half dark and half light where all of Australia is in complete darkness.

Give it another 12 hours or so mate, and I think you will find some posts relating to your posts, they will need an hour or so to read them to catch up ha ha, between you and I and Gary in the last 8 hours or so, we have managed to put the Joule Thief thread right on 1000 pages, that's a pretty good record all round.

C U all tomorra.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 04, 2011, 12:20:59 PM

Dont worry @electricme

Here is your idea on a graphic.
I think that the 470r is not doing anything there.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg280353#msg280353

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Tink on April 04, 2011, 02:20:43 PM

The two 470 Ohm resisters limit the current so the leds won't blow (or the transistor if it is a low amp-rated one).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 04, 2011, 03:40:53 PM

Quote from: Tink on April 04, 2011, 02:20:43 PM
The two 470 Ohm resisters limit the current so the leds won't blow (or the transistor if it is a low amp-rated one).

I think that I posted the wrong graphic.
This one is the correct one.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: protonmom on April 04, 2011, 07:13:39 PM

Thanks everyone for your help on the neon. For some odd reason I had the idea that the neon took a lot of juice to light and that was why I couldn't understand why the neon would light up and not the cfl. Anyway, I went back to the old boards and put them back together with good parts and they are working once again, along with the others. From now on, I will be checking the alligator clips to make sure they work properly before I blame the boards for any malfunction.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MrMag on April 04, 2011, 08:43:25 PM

Bill and all the other Joule Thief experimenters,

Congratulations on reaching 1000 pages !!!!!!

Amazing how a simple little circuit can bring about so much discussion. Great job guys!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on April 04, 2011, 08:46:54 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on April 04, 2011, 08:01:14 AM
It is simple. The current flows where there is less resistance.
The space between the neon filaments is less than rhe space between the cfl filaments.
Less space means less resistance.
The current choses the neon and the circuit has not enoufg juice to light both devices.

Jesus

I agree......... I will add that a neon takes around 90V to light
and doesn't need much power.
A CFL takes more like 250V to light and requires more power.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on April 04, 2011, 08:56:33 PM

Quote from: protonmom on April 04, 2011, 07:13:39 PM
Thanks everyone for your help on the neon. For some odd reason I had the idea that the neon took a lot of juice to light and that was why I couldn't understand why the neon would light up and not the cfl. Anyway, I went back to the old boards and put them back together with good parts and they are working once again, along with the others. From now on, I will be checking the alligator clips to make sure they work properly before I blame the boards for any malfunction.

Protonmom

I hope you saved the transistors and transformers from those boards.
You were talking about making a smaller circuit.
If you wired the primary up to the transistor you would have most of a VERY small JT
I would try it out using a pot .......but once you find the right resistance I would replace the pot with a resistor to make the circuit smaller.

I guess I should ask....... have you made a JT with a transformer before?

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 04, 2011, 09:20:09 PM

Gary:

I am working on that very thing at the moment using the idea of the fellow that I posted about a few pages back using no board and just wire for the traces. It will be very small indeed.

Bill

PS I agree with MrMags...congratulations to everyone here for making over 1,000 pages of postings and yet we are still going and coming up with new and interesting ideas and circuits. Very well done.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on April 04, 2011, 10:21:52 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on April 04, 2011, 09:20:09 PM
Gary:

I am working on that very thing at the moment using the idea of the fellow that I posted about a few pages back using no board and just wire for the traces. It will be very small indeed.

Bill

PS I agree with MrMags...congratulations to everyone here for making over 1,000 pages of postings and yet we are still going and coming up with new and interesting ideas and circuits. Very well done.

Bill

Bill

I am planning on making a small JT with the parts from a camera board .........as soon as I can find my boards.

Once it is done I am planning on trying to modify the circuit to work like a ringer.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 04, 2011, 10:27:52 PM

Gary:

That will be very interesting. I look forward to seeing your results. That is an excellent idea.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on April 04, 2011, 10:31:50 PM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on April 04, 2011, 08:08:11 AM
Maybe I made a mistake on posting my 1.5v to 12v circuit on page 998.

But I thought that because it was just to build a switching circuit to give a signal to a transistor with the 11.46v output from the coil to just hit the 1.5v battery and stop inmediately the transistor was an easy task to some members that play with electronics everyday.
I was wrong, nobody paid attention.

Jesus

HHHhhmmmmm

1.5 to 12 V ......that has been on my to do list for a while.

So many circuits.............so little time

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 05, 2011, 04:22:30 AM

Here is a video of my latest efforts with the MiniFuji circuit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA9CY_d6CwI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA9CY_d6CwI)

This time, I am driving two of the Lights Of America led bulbs (each designed to operate on 120 volt grid power) which have 27 chip leds in each bulb. I am working on a smaller circuit to drive the second light but I just wanted to see how bright 2 bulbs would be when driven by one circuit. The light is very bright and this may be the most light I have obtained thus far from a single AA battery. This is way more light than a cfl (at least the way I did it) or any of my tube lamps.

The bulbs were not modified in any way.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WayneJT on April 05, 2011, 05:31:20 AM

That is awesome, Well done Bill.

I am currently collecting a heap of used disposable camera's from my local photo shop, and hope some day they will give me a Fuji AA so that I can put together something similar, they would be great as a camping light.

Wayne.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 05, 2011, 06:10:20 AM

@Jesus,

If you look at the originall circuit of yours you posted a couple of pages back, I think I worked out why it stops working.

When you touch the top of the battery with the wire coming from the diode, the voltage is swamping the circuit, in other words there is just too much voltage. As you said, the battery is instantly recharged.

I suggest you measure the voltage from the negative of the battery, and the output of the diode, and also the point between the neon and the resistor, I bet it is much higher, is this pulsed DC or is it AC? anyway, feed the voltage through a small iron transformer in reverse, take the output from the secondaries, and feed it into a bridge diode, feed the DC into a electrolytic then feed the positive through the diode you have on the circuit, the negative output goes to the battery negative rail. It's a tiny but very basic battery charger.
The transformer drops the high voltage to a lower voltage with a bit of grunt.
It may then work for you, charging the battery and making the circuit work.

To raise the output volts, see what happens if you put 2 neon's in series.
They would then need 180 volts to strike.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 05, 2011, 08:37:36 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on April 05, 2011, 04:22:30 AM
Here is a video of my latest efforts with the MiniFuji circuit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA9CY_d6CwI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA9CY_d6CwI)

This time, I am driving two of the Lights Of America led bulbs (each designed to operate on 120 volt grid power) which have 27 chip leds in each bulb. I am working on a smaller circuit to drive the second light but I just wanted to see how bright 2 bulbs would be when driven by one circuit. The light is very bright and this may be the most light I have obtained thus far from a single AA battery. This is way more light than a cfl (at least the way I did it) or any of my tube lamps.

The bulbs were not modified in any way.

Bill

That looks great! The light is brilliant even with the normal lights on!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 05, 2011, 08:48:45 AM

Quote from: electricme on April 05, 2011, 06:10:20 AM
@Jesus,

If you look at the originall circuit of yours you posted a couple of pages back, I think I worked out why it stops working.

When you touch the top of the battery with the wire coming from the diode, the voltage is swamping the circuit, in other words there is just too much voltage. As you said, the battery is instantly recharged.

I suggest you measure the voltage from the negative of the battery, and the output of the diode, and also the point between the neon and the resistor, I bet it is much higher, is this pulsed DC or is it AC? anyway, feed the voltage through a small iron transformer in reverse, take the output from the secondaries, and feed it into a bridge diode, feed the DC into a electrolytic then feed the positive through the diode you have on the circuit, the negative output goes to the battery negative rail. It's a tiny but very basic battery charger.
The transformer drops the high voltage to a lower voltage with a bit of grunt.
It may then work for you, charging the battery and making the circuit work.

To raise the output volts, see what happens if you put 2 neon's in series.
They would then need 180 volts to strike.

jim

I tried a full rectifier and the battery is consumed anyway. But if we use the fact that just by touching it charges the battery and create a circuit that do that for us it will be runing and doing some work and keeping itself charged with the automatic touch the circuit provides.

The circuit that mimics the wire touching to the positive AA pole is what we need.
On my case I need to send for the LT ic again because when I left the wire connected accidentally, the coil began to give a high pitch sound and the neon was very bright for fractions of a second and the LT ic was gone.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 05, 2011, 02:19:54 PM

Thank you Wayne, and Jesus. I have decided to never work with a tube or CFL ever again!!! LEDs are the way to go in my opinion.

Bill

PS I just had another 2 cfl's burn out in my bedroom. These were both less than 3 months old, and I hardly ever turn on the bedroom lights so they had very little use. What a giant waste of money.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: ALVARO_CS on April 05, 2011, 02:46:57 PM

@pirate & everyone
In my Pc, this thread has passed the page number 1000 !!! :P
congratulations and thank you for the most exciting and fruitfull forum, and also for all the wisdom here shared !
Alvaro

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 06, 2011, 04:01:16 AM

Quote from: ALVARO_CS on April 05, 2011, 02:46:57 PM
@pirate & everyone
In my Pc, this thread has passed the page number 1000 !!! :P
congratulations and thank you for the most exciting and fruitfull forum, and also for all the wisdom here shared !
Alvaro

Yes, on mine too. I congratulate everyone here for this achievement. We have all worked very hard and have discovered some interesting things and have built some really cool and useful stuff over here. Maybe not overunity....yet....but still some very useful devices to be sure.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 06, 2011, 08:50:30 PM

@Bill,
Yes, I agree with everyones positive remarks about passing the 1000 mark, a lot of excellent research and work has been done by every poster, no matter how, if it was a single post or those who have contributed many. ;D

To all,
I am not going to say any names, but I just want to say a public thank you to a number of people (and those who prefer to remain anonymous) who have said they would send me some items to help me out through the loss of a lot of my stuff through the floods I have had to endure, thank you very much indeed.

From the PMs I have received I have several packages in transit right at this moment, I am over whelmed right now by the generosity of those very kind people......It means a lot to me, and reflects the calibre of all the people who are on the Overunity Forum.

Thank you.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 06, 2011, 09:09:08 PM

Jim:

You have helped many a member here on this topic as well as other topics and you have had quite a time down under with those floods so...now some of us have a chance to return the kindness that you have shown.

No worries Mate.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on April 06, 2011, 10:03:54 PM

Jesus

I was not paying much attention when you posted your original circuit so I did not really have a clue about what you are trying to do.

I went back and saw you are running a pulse motor.
Perhaps what you need is something like a holding zone for the electricity before it is returned to the battery.

Nice strong fast pulses create radiant energy.......Tesla called them disruptive discharges.......of course the discharges he played with were much bigger than we use here.

As I understand it in a disruptive discharge the inpulse travels faster than the physical electrons can move down the wire ........so for an instant there is something like a log jam of electrons in the wire.
In spite of this log jam SOMETHING passes .......

I am pretty sure this effect is why Bedini uses 2 batterys in his machines.
I do not remember if it was Bedini or Bearden that said that the massless charge carriers will build up on the plates of a battery.....the end result is a battery can continue to charge for quite a while after the pulses stop.

The problem with one battery as I see it. When your motor draws even a little energy from the battery.....there goes all the massless charge that had accumulated on the battery plates. Without having time to reattach to electrons they do little or no work.

I am suggesting that you add a capacitor or something to hold the charge carriers for a fraction or a second before you feed them back to the battery.

gary

edit
After thinking about it........maybe a simple tank circuit would work best.
Let the charge carriers slosh around in the tank until they have time to reconnect with electrons.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 07, 2011, 12:09:43 PM

Quote from: resonanceman on April 06, 2011, 10:03:54 PM
Jesus

I was not paying much attention when you posted your original circuit so I did not really have a clue about what you are trying to do.

I went back and saw you are running a pulse motor.
Perhaps what you need is something like a holding zone for the electricity before it is returned to the battery.

Nice strong fast pulses create radiant energy.......Tesla called them disruptive discharges.......of course the discharges he played with were much bigger than we use here.

As I understand it in a disruptive discharge the inpulse travels faster than the physical electrons can move down the wire ........so for an instant there is something like a log jam of electrons in the wire.
In spite of this log jam SOMETHING passes .......

I am pretty sure this effect is why Bedini uses 2 batterys in his machines.
I do not remember if it was Bedini or Bearden that said that the massless charge carriers will build up on the plates of a battery.....the end result is a battery can continue to charge for quite a while after the pulses stop.

The problem with one battery as I see it. When your motor draws even a little energy from the battery.....there goes all the massless charge that had accumulated on the battery plates. Without having time to reattach to electrons they do little or no work.

I am suggesting that you add a capacitor or something to hold the charge carriers for a fraction or a second before you feed them back to the battery.

gary

edit
After thinking about it........maybe a simple tank circuit would work best.
Let the charge carriers slosh around in the tank until they have time to reconnect with electrons.

At the feedback to the source topic a member called @nul-points posted a circuit that replaces the charging diode that is very interesting. As soon as I get the LT ic mounted on the protoboard I will try it.
I will also try your idea of a tank circuit.

There was another good idea from @pirate too.

Jesus

Title: high efficiency Joule thief
Post by: xee2 on April 09, 2011, 01:11:34 AM

:-[ Deleted. Circuit had bad connection. I will need to test again. Sorry.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 09, 2011, 01:49:38 AM

Xee2:

Good to see you. I will check out those videos.

@ All:

Here is another video of yet another new lighting device I made using 2 lights of America led bulbs and the modified Fuji circuit, driven by an old AA battery.

The cool thing is, and I show this, or at least attempted to, that each of the 2 bulbs in the double light are as bright as my single light and the single light is about 2 times the amount of light from my Lidmotor's Jeanna's Light replication. I will not be working with any more cfls or tubes after seeing this. LEDs are the way to go, like we saw back in the early days of this topic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qb7HUuFFJnM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qb7HUuFFJnM)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 09, 2011, 01:56:48 AM

XEE2:

I watched both videos. I understood yours a lot better and that is great work. I'll bet that you can optimize your toroid and windings and get that up even higher.

Excellent.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 09, 2011, 02:00:54 AM

@ Pirate88179

Thanks but circuit had bad connection so results are no good. I will try again.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WayneJT on April 09, 2011, 02:56:51 AM

Hi Bill

well done!!

I love it, its exactly what I'm after for the odd camping/ fishing trip.

Have you thought about making a step by step guide from the Fuji Mod to where you are now with the double LED lights, I for one would like to see something like this and probably many others, as I'm currently only on page 120 of this very long thread and would love to make it while I'm trying to catch up to you all.

Wayne

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 09, 2011, 03:19:38 AM

Wayne:

Thank you very much, I really appreciate that.

You know, I have been asked that before and, as you will see as you read this topic, there are 2 main variants of the Fuji board....an AA battery board and a AAA battery board. All of my successful projects were done with the AA board. Jeanna discovered a way to tell the difference by the outside of the camera....the AA board has a black switch on the front, like a rocker switch and the AAA board has (at least it USED to) a green slide switch with little bumps on it. By the way, these all come in the same box with the photo of the AA board camera on the front of the package.

Well, I bought another camera the other day and opened the box in the store and it had a black slide switch with little bumps on it and this was a AAA board. I have messed with it for hours and can't seem to get it to work. I am just hoping that the AA boards are still out there somewhere.

It would take a lot of time and patience on my part to make this type of video but, I do agree one should be made. I have been asked many times. I'll see what I can do IF I can locate some more of the AA boards. The rest of it is easy and the Fuji mods are not really that hard either.

These make great little lights and I have been having a lot of fun with them.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WayneJT on April 09, 2011, 04:11:28 AM

Bill

I think you are correct about the AA fuji boards being a little scarce now days, I have been collecting used cameras now for a few weeks from the local shop and all up I have around 20 Kodak of various models and about 5 Fuji's all AAA, I have not seen any Fuji camera's for sale in my part of town, but will keep seaching, If I can find some I will help out and make the step by step, as I am finding out the info to get to your stage is spread over a very long thread.

Anyway keep up the excellent work, we are all having fun here even though some of us can only light 20 or so LED's.

Wayne.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 09, 2011, 04:40:07 AM

Wayne:

I just remembered....I had purchased 2 Fuji cams about 10 months ago. I finally got around to trying to make something with them, as seen in my latest video additions, and even though they were AA boards....the traces were a bit different and I had to get an older one of my mods to look at and figure out where to hook up what. It was not that bad, but it was different. So now I know how to make 2 different Fuji AA variants work.

As we discussed way back (yes, I went back last week and was re-reading about our Fuji posts to get some help) The size of that transformer on the AAA is very small compared to the one on the AA boards. So, I will always try to hold out for those AA boards...IF they are still around. Who knows?

If I can help you in any way, just let me know and I will try. Josepino.com has a good piece on how to do the "standard" Fuji mod....all we really did different from him was to cut the anode end of the diode to get the full wave. He said that all he could light was the small 4 watt tubes and, as you have seen, we have done much more than that.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 09, 2011, 04:28:24 PM

@ All:

I just found this over at Electronics Goldmine:

http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16329 (http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16329)

It is a camera board that is on special for $.79 ea. It is too bad we can't see the reverse side of this thing in a photo BUT it says this board was designed to operate on 2 AA batteries...yes that is 3 volts!!!

It might be worth getting a few of these to see if the transformer is even larger than our Fuji and possibly the transistor can handle the additional voltage as well? Maybe we could even figure out the tracings and modify it similar to the Fuji. There are some smart guys here that could do that I am sure.

I am just very curious about it being set-up to run on 3 volts...never saw anything like this in any camera I have taken apart.

Bill

***EDIT***

PS I suppose it could be set-up to run on 1.5 volts and they just used the batteries in parallel for a longer run time but, I don't know why they would need to do this unless it has like an auto wind type feature.

Title: MoPoZcO replication attempt
Post by: xee2 on April 09, 2011, 06:24:51 PM

I corrected the circuit problem in my replication attemp and the efficiency is now only 36%, but this is still a bit better than a normal Joule thief. My new video is at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smOiVmKv9f8

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 09, 2011, 07:04:30 PM

Bill:

Very nice find there, as you say pity we can't look at the component side of this board. I will go and take a look see at it shortly

I was thinking how to make the CFL brighter, and I think I have found a way, well in my mind that is.
A couple of years ago I was fiddling around with MOTs and came across a web site where a few chaps had managed to double and quadrupole the Hi Voltage out and were doing all sorts of crazy things.

In reality there is no difference electrically in principle between a MOT or the tiny hi voltage transformer on the camera boards, I can see no problems in trying to marry up two tiny hi voltage transformers to double the output and give a much brighter CFL light.

The primary windings are simply connected in parallel, the secondary output of each transformer are connected in series. We need to find the start and end windings on the secondary and connect the ends in such a way to double the output. In the circuit I have drawn below you can see how to connect 2 HV transformers to each other.

As I haven't ever measured or compaired the tiny Hi Volt transformers on a photo flash board I don't know if the circuit is the same, maybe some one can do a resistance coil test and let me know.
You would need to unsolder a Hi Voltage coil to do this, so you can tell which other end of the Hi Volt coil wire goes to which pin that is soldered to the PCB.
Knowing this will let you know how to connect the secondary coils together.

The upside is, once we have a working double Hi Volt setup we could triple or even quadrupole the output, hey maybe burn out a tube ha ha.
The downside is, we use more power, but by changing the AA battery for a C size battery we can still get the same run time (or more) as the AA battery.

Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 09, 2011, 07:29:52 PM

Jim:

Great idea on the transformer adding.

A word about cfl's...in my opinion, based upon my own experience and experiments, I will no longer work with tubes or cfls again. Besides the mercury issue, in my latest video as I post a few posts back, I do a comparison between the light from a cfl, and the light from my single LOA light and also a double LOA light. These use much less power (I will try to get some readings after work tonight) but, as seen in that video, the light from the single LOA led bulb is twice, if not more, than that of the cfl. The double LOA light is much brighter still...all on a single AA.

I realize that not all areas of the world will have access to these new bulbs...at least maybe not for a while. This is just a choice that I am making. I know that Jeanna experimented with these bulbs long ago and it has only been recently that I have decided to play with them.

They put out an incredible amount of light and look much brighter in real life than on my videos.

We could still use your idea about ganging the transfos and see just how much one of these lights will take...ha ha. We won't know until we try.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on April 09, 2011, 11:50:48 PM

Quote from: electricme on April 09, 2011, 07:04:30 PM
Bill:

Very nice find there, as you say pity we can't look at the component side of this board. I will go and take a look see at it shortly

I was thinking how to make the CFL brighter, and I think I have found a way, well in my mind that is.
A couple of years ago I was fiddling around with MOTs and came across a web site where a few chaps had managed to double and quadrupole the Hi Voltage out and were doing all sorts of crazy things.

In reality there is no difference electrically in principle between a MOT or the tiny hi voltage transformer on the camera boards, I can see no problems in trying to marry up two tiny hi voltage transformers to double the output and give a much brighter CFL light.

The primary windings are simply connected in parallel, the secondary output of each transformer are connected in series. We need to find the start and end windings on the secondary and connect the ends in such a way to double the output. In the circuit I have drawn below you can see how to connect 2 HV transformers to each other.

As I haven't ever measured or compaired the tiny Hi Volt transformers on a photo flash board I don't know if the circuit is the same, maybe some one can do a resistance coil test and let me know.
You would need to unsolder a Hi Voltage coil to do this, so you can tell which other end of the Hi Volt coil wire goes to which pin that is soldered to the PCB.
Knowing this will let you know how to connect the secondary coils together.

The upside is, once we have a working double Hi Volt setup we could triple or even quadrupole the output, hey maybe burn out a tube ha ha.
The downside is, we use more power, but by changing the AA battery for a C size battery we can still get the same run time (or more) as the AA battery.

Jim

Jim

I have never tried putting the primarys in parallel before.
If you put the primarys in series you will have a candy cane coil made with transformers rather than toroids.

I plan on playing with the same kind of idea tomorow.
I have a couple of camera circuits that are AA but only 4 connections on the transformer.
I also have a fuji AA that has 5 connections on the transformer. If the 5th connection is a center tap for the primary making a JT with that one will be a snap.

Getting back to the candy cane thing.
If you put your primarys and secondarys both in series it works for the most part like one big inductor with the an equivalent number of wraps

I do think you will be happy with what you find .......there are lots of possible combinations with candy cane coils........ one is to put string of primarys in series then try to light a CFL with each secondary

I look forward to seeing your results

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 10, 2011, 04:48:26 AM

Sort of off-topic, but not really. I have been assaulted by wood boring bees this spring. When I stand on my patio to smoke, they bounce off my head and body. So, I have established a "No Fly Zone" enforced by my Harbor Freight 1,500 volt fly swatter. Score thus far.....Bill 8, bees 0. Now, all of my friends say these bees do not sting. but, I Googled them and it says the MALES do not sting, the females cause a heck of a wound.

I am not taking the time to determine their biology. This is war. My No Fly zone will be enforced!!!

Bill

PS This bug zapper fly swatter works on 2 D batteries and makes 1,500 volts. Yes, I have a second one that I took apart to see what was inside.

Title: Re: MoPoZcO replication attempt
Post by: ALVARO_CS on April 10, 2011, 05:16:23 AM

Quote from: xee2 on April 09, 2011, 06:24:51 PM
I corrected the circuit problem in my replication attemp and the efficiency is now only 36%, but this is still a bit better than a normal Joule thief. My new video is at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smOiVmKv9f8
Hello xee
In the video you show that efficiency is watts out divided by watts in, and I was used to think that it should be watts out minus watts in. Will you be kind (to forgive my ignorance) to explain this a bit ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 10, 2011, 06:18:24 AM

Bill:

Noooo don't tell me, sounds like you got a squadron of them. :)

Quote from: Pirate88179 on April 10, 2011, 04:48:26 AM
I have been assaulted by wood boring bees this spring. When I stand on my patio to smoke, they bounce off my head and body. So, I have established a "No Fly Zone" enforced by my Harbor Freight 1,500 volt fly swatter. Score thus far.....Bill 8, bees 0. Now, all of my friends say these bees do not sting. but, I Googled them and it says the MALES do not sting, the females cause a heck of a wound.

I am not taking the time to determine their biology. This is war. My No Fly zone will be enforced!!!

Bill

PS This bug zapper fly swatter works on 2 D batteries and makes 1,500 volts. Yes, I have a second one that I took apart to see what was inside.

Experiment time Bill, walk out on the patio without a smoke, do they want to play with you then :D time to drag out the Jeanna Light and armed with your bug zapper fly swatter and give em what fore, try a right hand forearm then a back hand, see how that goes.

Just don't forget to duck if one gets by the defences, well you could spit at that one and gum up its wings and it'll fall to earth ;D.

cartoon time? ;)

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 10, 2011, 06:27:09 AM

Jim:

I have to say that they exhibit a lot of intelligence. Once I took out like 4 of them....the rest of them buzzed me profusely BUT, they kept out of reach of my bug zapper swatter. Now when I go out, I get dive bombed by these things. They do not bother the neighbors but are after me. That is fine...I can accept the terms of war, and war it shall be. (or bee, ha ha) Last year, I took out over 30 of the buggers. Possibly, they remember that. That 1,500 volt swatter is the bomb though....it really works when you can hit one of them. But now, they come at me in groups of 3. It is rough out there but, I will prevail.!!!!!!

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 10, 2011, 06:42:36 AM

Jim:

I have already tested that. I walk out to get the mail and they are all over me. I walk out to my car to go to work....same thing and no smoking at all during these times. These buggers will know the wrath of my 1,500 volt swatter!!! This is war! It reminds me of the mice war of Australia a little while ago. We have technology on our side.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 10, 2011, 06:44:42 AM

Pirate at war with the Bees

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 10, 2011, 06:51:30 AM

Jim:

I am still laughing!!!!!!! I am going to print that one out and hang it on my wall. Well done sir!!!!!!!! You captured the moment perfectly.

Bill

PS I am not up against a squadron, they are more like an entire air wing. But, not for long. I will enforce this No Fly Zone.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 10, 2011, 07:41:15 AM

Gary:

Quote from: resonanceman on April 09, 2011, 11:50:48 PM
Jim

I have never tried putting the primarys in parallel before.
If you put the primarys in series you will have a candy cane coil made with transformers rather than toroids.

I plan on playing with the same kind of idea tomorow.
I have a couple of camera circuits that are AA but only 4 connections on the transformer.
I also have a fuji AA that has 5 connections on the transformer. If the 5th connection is a center tap for the primary making a JT with that one will be a snap.

Getting back to the candy cane thing.
If you put your primarys and secondarys both in series it works for the most part like one big inductor with the an equivalent number of wraps

I do think you will be happy with what you find .......there are lots of possible combinations with candy cane coils........ one is to put string of primarys in series then try to light a CFL with each secondary

I look forward to seeing your results

gary

Actually I havent ever pulled the transformer off a camera board, and I can hardly wait for the cameras that are in the mail to me, when they get here I will be seeing what I can do with this parallel transformer idea.

If you manage to unsolder a hi Voltage coil, you will need to find the primary winding, it will have a lower resistance on the multimeter, the secondary will be a lot higher.

To make sure both coils are firing at the same time, they need the primaries to be in parallel.
The secondaries need to be in series, and I think the secondary ends you solder together, need to be connected to battery earth. This leaves you with just a single output connection from each transformer, it's these that you solder the CFL to.

My thinking is each coil can put out about 350 volts, add both coils together and you have 700 odd volts to power the CFL tube directly.

After a lot of dredging I found a hi voltage circuit with four transformers all connected with the primaries in parallel and the secondaries in series, take a look here http://kb3ewy.com:8000/old/images/4pack2.GIF

This will give you an idea where I am headding with this now.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 10, 2011, 10:47:54 AM

Jim:

I think you are going to make us blow things up... ha ha! Seriously, I have always liked the idea of finding out what something can do, not what it was designed to do. Let's push it all that we can.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on April 10, 2011, 05:43:11 PM

Quote

If you manage to unsolder a hi Voltage coil, you will need to find the primary winding, it will have a lower resistance on the multimeter, the secondary will be a lot higher.

To make sure both coils are firing at the same time, they need the primaries to be in parallel.
The secondaries need to be in series, and I think the secondary ends you solder together, need to be connected to battery earth. This leaves you with just a single output connection from each transformer, it's these that you solder the CFL to.

My thinking is each coil can put out about 350 volts, add both coils together and you have 700 odd volts to power the CFL tube directly.

After a lot of dredging I found a hi voltage circuit with four transformers all connected with the primaries in parallel and the secondaries in series, take a look here http://kb3ewy.com:8000/old/images/4pack2.GIF

This will give you an idea where I am headding with this now.

jim

Jim

I have taken a few camera boards apart.......it is not easy to remove the transformers without breaking a pin off.
What I plan on doing now is snipping the circuit board away so I have only a little bit of board around the base of the transformer.
Then I just solder new wires to the existing connections.

I guess I will have to try a candy cane coil with the primaries in parallel..... all mine have been in series so far.

I do not agree that the secondarys need to be connected in series.......although it is true there are some problems with balancing things if you try to run them seperately.
MOST of of the power will go to the lowest impedance secondary unless you ballance things very carefully..... but you can get some useful things done with this balancing .......for example if you use a coil with 2 windings on it for balancing .... A switch on a coil connected to a bridge then used for feedback will greatly increase the inductance of the other coil on the same core.......giving you a way to switch high voltage with a small low voltage switch.

If course the whole circuit will still be live.........so don't touch it or you may become the new low impedance path for the current.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 10, 2011, 07:11:41 PM

Gary:
I agree with most of what you are saying, but the most important thing to watch for is to get the phasing right when you connect two or more transformer secondary output coils in series (same with the primary as well)

If you look at the setup which has 4 MOT transformers it will show you what I mean.
BTW, the circuit is not drawn wrong, you can see there are 2 lines drawn (black) from the center of 2 transformers (inner transformers) to the iron lamination's of the outer transformers.
In the case of MOTs the start winding is secured to the lamination's by a rivet.

Looking again at the two inner transformers, the GREEN line represents a wire connecting both the lamination's which is part of the circuit, notice the Earth connection.

So in the case of 4 MOT transformers, they must be isolated from each other, and you must never touch the iron core.
To fix this live core problem you remove the "pin" and sleeve the wire and anchor it securely by using appropriate HV insulating material, then threadding a cotton strip around the transformer, to anchor the terminal assembly and aralditing it. There may be other methods that I am not aware of.

But I do not accept responsibility if someone does this and hurts themselves.
Search all over the internet and look for those posts modifying MOTs to see if there is a better method, I only use what works well for myself.

I like your idea on using a switch to connect power to the second HV transformer, you could switch the second TF on or off as a test setup to explore the differences in the outputs.

I read the transistor on the flash PCB is a fairly robust device and can cope with a few amps where ordinary transistors will let out the smoke.

I think we could solder two of these same transistors in parallel to double the switching current to the transformer primaries, can't see any problems using this method.

Has anyone used a transistor from the camera boards to drive the Joule Thief?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on April 10, 2011, 07:59:21 PM

Quote from: electricme on April 10, 2011, 07:11:41 PM
Gary:
I agree with most of what you are saying, but the most important thing to watch for is to get the phasing right when you connect two or more transformer secondary output coils in series (same with the primary as well)

If you look at the setup which has 4 MOT transformers it will show you what I mean.
BTW, the circuit is not drawn wrong, you can see there are 2 lines drawn (black) from the center of 2 transformers (inner transformers) to the iron lamination's of the outer transformers.
In the case of MOTs the start winding is secured to the lamination's by a rivet.

Looking again at the two inner transformers, the GREEN line represents a wire connecting both the lamination's which is part of the circuit, notice the Earth connection.

So in the case of 4 MOT transformers, they must be isolated from each other, and you must never touch the iron core.
To fix this live core problem you remove the "pin" and sleeve the wire and anchor it securely by using appropriate HV insulating material, then threadding a cotton strip around the transformer, to anchor the terminal assembly and aralditing it. There may be other methods that I am not aware of.

But I do not accept responsibility if someone does this and hurts themselves.
Search all over the internet and look for those posts modifying MOTs to see if there is a better method, I only use what works well for myself.

I like your idea on using a switch to connect power to the second HV transformer, you could switch the second TF on or off as a test setup to explore the differences in the outputs.

I read the transistor on the flash PCB is a fairly robust device and can cope with a few amps where ordinary transistors will let out the smoke.

I think we could solder two of these same transistors in parallel to double the switching current to the transformer primaries, can't see any problems using this method.

Has anyone used a transistor from the camera boards to drive the Joule Thief?

Jim

I can see you have been studying this for a while.
Are you planning on actually using MOTs?
If so have you thought of using a IGBT ( Insulated gate bipolar transistor )
They are expensive but they can handle some power.
I learned about them reading about how to make a solid state spark gap.

I do understand the problem of phase can create with AC circuits .
i have never really worried about it...... I just experiment.
I connect another inductor and either the circuit gets stronger or it gets weaker

I played with feedback and balancing loads for months a while back.
Most of my inductors were JT coils but I imagine that at least the basics apply to larger coils like MOTs

I have a different way of driving MOTs on my to do list.
It is similar to some of what IST was doing.
I was planning on making a small JT that would be used just for switching a IGBT on and off,
The voltage used for the MOT could be anything your IGBT could handle.
I got a couple IGBTs that can handle 900V so I am thinking 250 or 300V might be a safe maximum for input voltage....... assuming I never get careless and fire it up with no load......with no load I am guessing it would be somewhere around 2 KV and it would have a few amps behind it too

I am not sure how many CFLs it will be able to light.......I am guessing a few dozen'

I am just not ready to play with anything that lethal yet

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 10, 2011, 10:56:39 PM

Gary:

No I am not going to use a MOT on my camera circuit to drive a CFL.
I needed to explain what I was doing by adding another HV transformer into the camera circuit, as there were no information available in the JT forum or elseware, I had to go look for it.

I knew from my searches a couple of years ago where someone had successfully married up 2 MOTs, somewhere I have also seen on the net someone has done the same using 2 car ignition coils, they are simply high voltage transformers, they put out 15KV each, ha ha, now you can see where we might be able to do by combining the JT with the Camera bits.

All I will be doing is to use the small tiny HV transformer that comes with the camera boards, they need to be identical, because I will run into electrical mismatch with loading, resistances, capacitance's, in other words if it works one transformer will have to take more of the load and burn out or the transistor firing off the primary will over heat and burn out.
So there is lots to think about.

I read someone had placed a microwave HV capacitor in series with the MOT output, I watched a video yesterday showing this thing was making some arcs that were out of this world, they were able to arc a couple feet long, just by adding the HV caps.

This fellow held a insulated rod which had a insulated wire going back to the earth of the circuit, but he was taking it very slow and safe.

I won't be expecting anything like this to happen, in fact a 1mm spark gap represents 1000 volts, as the series transformer will put out 700volts, I will not even be in the ball park, but I expect the neon would go phutt, but the flash tube should light like a light bulb, ha ha.

We all know a single flash from a flashing tube looks like, it is very intense and hurts the eyes, imagine if it was going off at 20 cycles a second, it should look like a powerful search light, especially if focused by a 6 volt lantern torch reflector, take the 6v bulb out and replace it with the flash tube vertically in the bulb holder. That keeps it in the focal plane of the mirror.
Now if I put a much smaller HV capacitor in series with the HV output, I could expect some real energy to be there.

I made a special circuit several years ago doing just this, it was fed from the HV output from the hand wound JT secondary, and it could give a real punch if you accidentally touched the ends.

I'm getting too far and head of myself now, but it's something to think about for a project down the road.

IGBTs need to be turned hard ON and OFF very rapidly, if they aren't they will destruct, I don't know enough of the camera circuit triggering waveforms to see if they can do this.
I know the sharper knee in the wave form will give the very best HV output from the transformer, this will be the stuff to trigger the transformer to give a better juicer spark.

Bill:
Hows the bees today, whats the tally so far, you got any stings? Hows the air space there :D

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 11, 2011, 12:04:46 AM

Jim:

The bees are missing 10 of their airmen. Here is a photo I got off of the net of one of them...the ones here are more yellow but the size is about the same. I did not have my 1,500 volt stun swatter when I went out today and had to resort to hand to hand combat. I smacked one of them out of the air with my hand and he hit the fence hard and fell to the ground. I then stepped on him and....when I removed my foot...he took off again and appeared to be somewhat angry. That swatter does the job and they never get up after a hit from that. It is basically JT circuit.

These things are almost the size of small birds, ha ha.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 11, 2011, 06:20:43 AM

A schematic and photo of it assembled.
Found at http://www.instructables.com

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: synchro1 on April 11, 2011, 07:20:48 PM

Mopozco's TROS is wired identically to the Joule Thief. He notes his Joule Thief Toroid winding is a combination of 16 and 22 gauge or 18 and 24. The thin wire end goes to the Transister base and the thick wire end to the collector. The other ends are joined and run to the posative pole of the battery.

This is close to the wide gauge span chosen by Danial McFarland Cook for his magnetic battery. Mopozco runs two diodes one off each end of the coil base. Mopozco's aledging overunity with this simple setup:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H14zf1LPIi0

His Fast Charger has an LED, Capacitor, and charge battery in parralell off the Collector and Emiter of the Transister. Disconnect the LED to charge. Nothing could be simpler!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyoHMEPukek&feature=related

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: protonmom on April 11, 2011, 08:59:06 PM

@Bill, sometimes Bees are attracted to certain smells, such as deoderant, cologne, soaps, etc. I have never seen such huge bees as shown in the Hand picture.

@all, Has anyone seen Jeanna lately? I hope she is okay, but I cannot help worrying about her. Jeanna, if you are reading this, please post so that we know you are doing ok.

@all, the other day I lit up an AA Fuji circuit.....with an AAA battery, and it lit just as brightly as with the AA. Yes, it was an AAA battery. Do not know what this means...maybe you do.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 11, 2011, 10:14:49 PM

Protonmom:

An AAA battery is the same 1.5 volts as an AA battery, the only difference being the amount of mA hours so the AA will last longer, as will a C or even D cell...but all are 1.5 volts so brightness is the same.

Yes, they are large bees and they drill holes in wood like you would not believe. (That is where they nest)

Last I heard from Jeanna, she was moving to a very rural location and may not have access to the net at this time.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on April 12, 2011, 03:19:34 PM

With respect to posted Reply #15041,

Yikes!! They are sizable, aren't they? Do they actually sting? There's a smaller variety that color in the Desert Southwest, especially in AZ. They dig nests in native Century Plant agave.

--Lee

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 12, 2011, 05:49:14 PM

Quote from: the_big_m_in_ok on April 12, 2011, 03:19:34 PM
With respect to posted Reply #15041,

Yikes!! They are sizable, aren't they? Do they actually sting? There's a smaller variety that color in the Desert Southwest, especially in AZ. They dig nests in native Century Plant agave.

--Lee

Well, the ones here look more like a bumblebee in color and most are not as big as the one in that photo, but close. Everyone around here says they do not sting but, when I looked them up, it said the females have a hell of a sting. They are actually known as carpenter bees because they drill a perfectly round hole into wood and make a nest there.

Me? I am taking no chances on one being male or female...if I walk outside and one bounces off of my head, the battle begins.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on April 12, 2011, 09:30:38 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on April 12, 2011, 05:49:14 PM
... They are actually known as carpenter bees because they drill a perfectly round hole into wood and make a nest there.
Me? I am taking no chances on one being male or female...if I walk outside and one bounces off of my head, the battle begins.
Bill

I think they're called something like that in Tucson, as well.

As for using a JT for a bug zapper, wouldn't strong current be as important as high voltage? Or else the JT merely act like a Van De Graaff generator you can touch harmlessly?

For enough current, more input voltage or more coil turns---or both---might be required.

--Lee

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 13, 2011, 02:51:14 AM

Lee:

I did not make this. I got it from Harbor Freight for $2.00. It puts out 1,500 volts from 2 D cell bats. It fries whatever it hits. So, it works just fine.

I did not make this but, I have a second one that I took apart and will use in another device.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on April 13, 2011, 09:23:10 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on April 13, 2011, 02:51:14 AM
Lee:
I did not make this. I got it from Harbor Freight for $2.00. It puts out 1,500 volts from 2 D cell bats. It fries whatever it hits. So, it works just fine.

I did not make this but, I have a second one that I took apart and will use in another device.
Bill

Good, I believe you. 1,500V with enough current might cook skin about as bad or worse than a Taser. And Tasers are good for a lot more voltage.

I'll try and look out for burned out CFL's to take apart. I have no idea what one looks like inside. Yet.

However, I will say that older CRT TV picture tube output transformers nowadays have the distressing propensity to be soldered in their low voltage connections to a large PC board every time as a subsystem circuit. Bummer. Unless the solder is carefully cleaned off, the tranny is fairly useless. The useful leads are too short at the very least. This is from personal experience.

--Lee

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WayneJT on April 15, 2011, 08:57:07 AM

Hi Guys
I thought I might share some information with you, I did not realise how many camera circuits there were out there, after dissecting the 8 cameras I got hold of from the generous people from the local photo lab, 6 Kodak all AA, 1 Fuji AAA and 1 unknown as there was no ID on the board, if anyone knows what cam 1 is please let me know, I think it may be my first AA fuji.
What I found interesting was that there seems to be a few different Kodak PCB's all slightly different from the others.

Thank you iWilby for the Kodak mod, I managed to get a 7watt CFL lit last night from your iWilby's Kodak mods pic on page 40 of this thread, yeah I'm way behind you guys, as I am having fun reading and playing around through this very long thread.
Opps my bad...2x Kodak funsaver cams are AAA

Wayne.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 16, 2011, 06:05:29 AM

Wayne:

Wow, quite a collection you have over there. I think we would have to see the boards, both top and bottom to be able to make any determinations of them. As you have read, there are several variations just among Fuji's and, now even among AA Fuji's.

There are a lot of smart folks reading this topic and, I think that as you dissect these cameras, take some photos and you might get some good advice. Me? I am only familiar with the Fuji AA including 2 different variations. I still can't seem to get my AAA boards to work at all.

The good news is that you just got a lot of good industrial AA and AAA bats with your find. In my experience, these industrials are way better than the ones we normally purchase.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: synchro1 on April 16, 2011, 01:53:07 PM

My Honda Insight Hybrid lost it's main battery and the charging system for the 12 volt. I'd like to try and keep the 12 volt charged while underway, as it's needed to run the ignition system. I wonder what the best Joule thief configuration would be for this job?

I looked at Mopozco's fast charger but he's charging to a same voltage battery. I would like to charge the 12 volt from a smaller voltage run battery if possible. Can anyone help me?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WayneJT on April 16, 2011, 08:07:50 PM

Hi All

Here is a pic of the camera circuits, I hope it shows up clear enough to see just how many variations there are with identical looking camera's especially the Kodaks, its no wonder I and probably a few others were getting confused with the camera mods that are posted somewhere on this thread.
The one I would like to have identified is cam 1, that one doesn't have any clear markings stamped on it to identify what it is, the primary transformer isn't like any of the others, this one seems to be laying down and maybe slightly larger, I'm thinking it may be a newer Fuji AA, as I have not seen a picture of this cam posted here. so any help would be appreciated.

Wayne.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WayneJT on April 16, 2011, 08:11:10 PM

Here is a pic of just the cam of interest.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on April 16, 2011, 10:55:56 PM

wayne
that looks to be a older kodak.. the reuseable ones..
it should have a inverter transformer.. on it and a npn-pnp pair..
that model also had a 400v - 1 amp scr on it for the trigger coil..
inverter transformers only have 4 pins.. but they still work fairly well if you just use the same transistor setup..
but most i have played with won't lite a cfl on 1.5 volts.. it takes 3 volts or more..
hope that helps..

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WayneJT on April 16, 2011, 11:06:39 PM

Thank you Kooler, you may be right, the transformer only has 4 pins.
Bummer, I was hoping it was a Fuji AA, One day I may get hold of one and be able to fire up a string on LED's.
Until then I will continue collecting used Cams.

Wayne

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on April 16, 2011, 11:22:39 PM

Quote from: WayneCooloongup on April 16, 2011, 11:06:39 PM
Thank you Kooler, you may be right, the transformer only has 4 pins.
Bummer, I was hoping it was a Fuji AA, One day I may get hold of one and be able to fire up a string on LED's.
Until then I will continue collecting used Cams.

Wayne

you make the AAA fugi light a cfl.. but you will need to dismount the transformer from the board or you can just rearrange the components you will need a pot were the resistor is on the transistor and if it has a small led on the base.. take it out..
and hook the cfl to neg on batt. then hook to the output of the transformer in front of the diode..
adjust pot till it lites and it should be pulling about 89-105 ma's from your battery..

robbie

Title: high power Joule thief
Post by: xee2 on April 17, 2011, 02:55:55 AM

High power Joule thief lights neons and filament bulbs.
video >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CZTO33Of7o

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sergdo on April 17, 2011, 10:44:00 AM

That made under the scheme which is your forum has been taken, a small toy (a very good toy works) on the bifilar coil.
But I do not iron nraivtsya, I want to peredlat iron core.
Video and circuit inside the video - for povtoroeniya experiment, can someone be interested.
PS
hlchu also now having the oscillator spark economic examine the effect Hatchinkinsa

With respect to the readers and writers Sergei Dobrozhansky
sergeij.dobrojanskij @ gmail.com

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bVxfctSy1s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_AZLsyV4vg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8u0HDsVMZI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwl_sYtQ_qM

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on April 17, 2011, 12:10:58 PM

@ sergdo

Very nice toy. Excellent results from two AA batteries. Look at:
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/4999-joulethief-sec-exciter-variants.html

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on April 17, 2011, 08:06:13 PM

Quote from: sergdo on April 17, 2011, 10:44:00 AM
That made under the scheme which is your forum has been taken, a small toy (a very good toy works) on the bifilar coil.
But I do not iron nraivtsya, I want to peredlat iron core.
Video and circuit inside the video - for povtoroeniya experiment, can someone be interested.
PS
hlchu also now having the oscillator spark economic examine the effect Hatchinkinsa

With respect to the readers and writers Sergei Dobrozhansky
sergeij.dobrojanskij @ gmail.com

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bVxfctSy1s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_AZLsyV4vg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8u0HDsVMZI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwl_sYtQ_qM

sergdo

'Great work on the JT Tesla coils.
I had thought that something like that was possible but have not got far enough to make one,

In the third video at first I thought that your Tesla coil primary was a CFL tube ..... now I am wondering if a CFL could work as a primary coil and spark gap at the same time.

gary

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 18, 2011, 06:38:44 AM

@sergdo,

Welcome to the Joule Thief forum, I will take a look at the links when I get time to do so, got my hands full down here just quietly.

@All,
I put my USB microscope to good work (at least it didn't get flooded) and I can verify Wayns remarks that some boards from the Kodak are very different, in fact even the parts which look the same are in fact different.
The case in point is the main transformers, they are made by TCE which stands for Tokyo Coil Engineering, so far I have found 9KO49, So27, SKD49 SKD9, 1,
The SCR or transistors are D2470W, D2470N, D2470V, 5889 3G

I will try and send one at a time as I got a satellite problem here.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 18, 2011, 07:13:11 AM

I tried posting the photo, discovered it was 800K, so had to make it smaller this is 5k don't know if I need to make it bigger.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 18, 2011, 07:21:00 AM

Here is the SKD9 transformer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 18, 2011, 07:24:36 AM

Here is the SKD37 transformer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 18, 2011, 07:28:10 AM

Last of the transformers is the SO27

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 18, 2011, 07:39:09 AM

In this series of USB Microscope photos I am showing the Transistors.
All of these I took off the same looking PCB disposeable camera boards, it wasn't until I could actually see them displayed on my screen when I became aware that although they all looked the same they in fact wern't, but were different in item numbering.
You can see for your selves.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 18, 2011, 07:43:03 AM

Here is the 5889 3G transistor

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 18, 2011, 07:48:18 AM

The next 3 transistors are D2470 W, D2470 N, D2470 V
Wea need to findout more info about these transistors, I think they are SCRs or silicon controlled rectifiers, might be wrong too.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 18, 2011, 07:59:41 AM

One of my Kodak disposable boards is different, and so I have a few shots of what the components look like blown up big time. You will see that one item is of an unknown value, it is not marked and so tomorrow I will unsolder this item (if I don't break it) and measure it.
Remember, these are really small transistors and resistors, to see what they actually look like, if you have a similar board, just get it and turn it over, track side up.

2AL, 8AY1 (Y is on it's side), last item is the photo of just a small section of the PCB.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 19, 2011, 08:30:40 PM

All:
Transformer Problem

I have 7 identical Kodak PCB boards from the disposable cameras, I wanted to know what the value of the coils were and which pins are assoceated to each coil
I unsoldered all the coils and conducted the following test to every transformer, and I got identical readings and I tripple checked them all.

I put the transformer upside down with the 3 pins across and away from me, which leaves the bottom 2 pins towards me.

There is no numbering of the pins on these transformers and that is part of the problem identifying them, so I have decided to number them in the following order.

top left to right, P1 P2 P3
Bottom Left to Right P5 P4

So from a clockwize view, P1-P2-P3-P4-P5

I measured the ohmeage between P1-P2 which gives me 0.1 = a coil
There is NO interaction between P1 or P2 to any of the other Pins of this transformer.

Between P3-P4 gives me 352 ohms = a coil
Between P4-P5 gives me 330 ohms = a coil

Now heres the "extra" "bit" I measure between P5 and P3 and get 0.9 to 1.0 ohms
But, I expected to see across my multimeter about 706 ohms or close to that, instead I got 0.9 - 1.0 ohms.
The question is WHY?

This is confirmed on ALL 7 transformers.
Has anyone else discovered their Kodak transformers configured like this?

There is a problem though, to my understanding, the High Voltage would appear between Pins 3 and P5 it looks like a centertap is assoceated on P4, but why can I measure almost 0 resistance between P3 and P5? and how does this transformer still manage to have an output when there is seen an almost short circuit between P3 and P5?

I have spent literally hours browsing the net looking for the "pin outs" information on these transformers but it appears there is nothing on them or it is very well hidden.

Can someone else please confirm if the number of coils on these Kodak Transformers, are as I seem to have found.

I have a theory on the reason why their might be a "extra" coil between P3 and P5, is it a "control" coil, does it dampen or quench a spark so only one spark is alowed to exit the transformer, I don't know.
Is it to tie the two 355 ohm coils in parallel?
If the item between P3 and P5 was to go OC, then it would in effect double the output.
That might explain why some people have noticed a huge increase in brightness before their CFL stopped working and the transformer was burnt out.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 19, 2011, 08:35:25 PM

Jim:

I have never seen a kodak transformer prior to your photos...nice job. I do know that on the Fuji AA tranny, one post is there just for mounting onto the circuit board, it is not part of the circuit. I doubt if this helps but, you never know.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 19, 2011, 08:41:30 PM

Sorry I forgot the circuit on my last post, here it is.

I have drawn it as a circuit layout and as I see it making actual measurements

The Green dollops must be anti flash over material for the HV coils.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 19, 2011, 08:46:58 PM

@electricme

That is a job well done. I have been trying to do just what you did for a long time but my meter is broken.

Thanks!

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 19, 2011, 09:44:57 PM

Bill:

Thanks, I'll check that out later on, but it's nice to know though.

I see from the circuit board, that there is a 431K ohm resistor between P2 and P3, I think this is to "tie" the electrical pulce earth to the coil that creates the magnetic field in the iron. That would alow the HV out to be fixed at one end and not let it "float" about nilly willy.

If I was to connect two transformers together to double the HV output I would have to parallel up P1 and P2 together, that would drive the magnetic field in both transformers in sync.
The output I probably might need to connect both P3 together (becomes a center tap) and then pins 5 to be seperated, but I'm not sure at this point in time.
Then that leaves both P4s to deel with, wonder what I do with those two?

Gotta do a bit more thinking yet on the secondaries, it's not as stright forward as I thought it was going to be.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 19, 2011, 10:07:23 PM

Jesus:

Hello, sorry to hear your multimeter is broken, I got a couple like that too and it's no fun at all.
Luckly for me I managed to put my main meter above flooding water level, the other two below didn't fair so good and are a write off. The blue meter I used in my shed (had 3 feet of water in it) to keep an eye on transformer temperatures, the yellow one just measured voltages, I had another rigged to measure current, don't know where that one got to, maybe washed away lol.

I'm glad that my work today measuring the Kodak transformers has been a help to you.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 19, 2011, 10:20:49 PM

Jim:

Those look like the meters Jacques Cousteau used under water, ha ha. In the early pages of our topic, several fellows spent a lot of time tracing transfo pins. I ran across this while reading for some other information. They may have all been Fuji transfos but maybe there was a Kodak in there as well?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pardon on April 19, 2011, 10:49:57 PM

hello all

Jim i don't think you are correctly thinking about the coils. if your meter is connected to the correct pin you can ohm almost a short and the other pin will test to something like 300 ohms. another way will ohm out both coils at the same time. i hope you get what i am saying. i will try and upload a circuit. it is the camera circuit but modified for the Joule ringer.

Dennis

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pardon on April 20, 2011, 12:12:37 AM

Hello all
I have repaired the above msg with the correct AAA xfmr. the circuit works real good with a lights of America unmodified 1 watt led light. I could not find my drawing of the xfmr and the coil configuration but 2 of the coils are on opposite sides of the xfmr. I hope this helps with your projects. also i do not know any information on the windings / turns.

also if you look into the AA version the trany's can be the same and sometimes are the same on both versions AA/ AAA

Dennis

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 20, 2011, 04:39:44 AM

Pardon:

Thanks for the above post, all I know if there is a resistance presented to the meter it will show up as a reading which it did do, I'm not saying anyone is wrong, just keeping an open mind as well, besides I am still new at measuring these tiny transformers, it would be great if we had access to the manufacturer design sheets, lol but I don't think that will happen.

Thanks Dennis for the imput and the crt.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 20, 2011, 04:43:49 AM

Jim:

Surely those specs are out there somewhere on the net. Did you try to Google those part numbers? That does not always work but, I have had good luck in doing that. What I mean is, someone designed those transfos, and then had to sell them to someone else so, the specs are somewhere I would think. Possibly under another name or part number though. Research is not easy, ha ha.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 20, 2011, 08:12:32 AM

Bill:
I tried googleing for the trannie using part numbers, never mind, something will come up.
Thanks Pardon for posting that circuit, in the morning I will attempt it and see what happens.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on April 20, 2011, 08:26:54 AM

I think that the best way to know the inner wiring of the transformers is to disassemble one and take notes of the windings configuration and direction of winding.

Jesus

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 20, 2011, 10:20:30 PM

I'm in the middle of a transformer pulldown.

Kodak Disposable Camera, so far these are the results, MORE to come.

Print out one of the above jpgs which shows you the pin out I have designated.

P1 P2 P3

P5 P4

***************
Top Layer Turns
Primary winding consists of 6 turns of unknown wire size,
Wire begins on P2 and Ends on P1

***************
Next Layer Turns
Secondary 1 consists of 12 turns of smaller gauge wire
Wire begins at P3 and Ends on P5

This is the mystery coil I picked up using my multimeter, the coil exists.

***************
Secondary2
Surprise surprise, this secondary is Bifilar wound with very fine wire
The last of the winds are on P4 which is the centertap
One Bifilar wire goes to P5
One Bifilar wire goes to P3

***************

The turns of the 2nd secondary.

I began the pulldown (unwind of the 2nd secondary coil) when after the 3rd turn, one fine wire broke, this still left another strand, then it broke.
This left me no alternative than to unwind all turns (impossible to count from this tangle) until the last layer where the last few turns could be seen connecting to their respective pins,.

What caused this last part of the pulldown to go astray? it was the green glue or substance that was used during manufacture, a dollop of green gunk was applied just before the beginning of the 1st turn when the coils were being made, as this gunk solidified, it also encapsulated the fine wires, which were impossible to pull out of the hardened gunk.
The outcome was everytime I reached the green gunk, the wires broke.

I tried to remove this green gunk but found it impossible as it had hardened to a hard glaze.
***************

Results are.
Secondary High Voltage coils are wound with many turns in a bifilar fashion as they go on the former, they are not wound side by side like we do with the Stubblefield Coil.

The start of the winds are connected to P5 and P3 and terminate together on P4

Layer of Blue Insulation tape is next

The Start of the next coil starts on P3 and ends on P5
This is seen as a separate coil with 12 turns on it, but it IS connected across the HV secondary coil, as I suspected, as was the case a couple of days ago.
This must be some type of automatic control coil as it truly is hard wired across Pins 3 and 5 which share the output of the HV secondary.
Maybe a transformer fellow can add further information to this peculiar arrangement.

Lastly there is the TOP coil it has 6 turns on it.

I have no way of measuring the wire sizes, sorry about that, my micrometer is somewhere in my container (at least I hope so)

jim

Photos of the unwind will follow below.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 20, 2011, 10:53:08 PM

@ All,

Here are the photos I took of the Kodak Transformer coil pulldown.
Enjoy.
jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 20, 2011, 11:02:47 PM

The above photos were of the Primary Coil
Had to remove the clear tape holding the transformer halves together
BlueOSRape after the transformer halves were seperated, this is what I had
Showing the Primary Coil as seen on the transformer
The size of the wire , I layed the wire across a 32nd segmented ruler to give some idea of the wires width, best I could do at the moment.

Below Photos are

Sec1 After primary was removed I got to the 1st secondary, which I believe is some type of control coil.
There are 12 turns on this coil.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 20, 2011, 11:11:33 PM

Lastly the High Voltage Secondary

Bifilar coil showing the 2 ends.
First is what it the coil looked like after the blue tape was removed
HV coil

Green gunk that kept breaking the wire as I was trying to unwind the coil, I ended up unwinding it piece by broken piece.

Last turn

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 20, 2011, 11:25:09 PM

Lastly,

The Kodak transformer is wound exactly as I previously thought it was as I had posted previously.

The High Voltage secondary.
I have no idea of how many turns were origanally were wound on the former, during the unwind, every time I came to the lower layers where the pinouts are, the green gunk (insulation material) had encased/enclosed over the wires and had solidified. This stuff is unbelievably hard and difficult to remove, so I simply used a sharp object (needle) to get under a strand or two and brake the wire and continue the unwind.

Eventually I reached the last layer, unfortunately only one end was available which is seen in the JPG.

However the ohmeage readings show where each coil end went to which pinout.

Hope this has shed some light on this transformer.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WayneJT on April 21, 2011, 12:50:11 AM

@All
Could someone please help me identify this AA camera board, I have not seen this one before, it has a larger primary transformer than any of the other boards I've collected, the HV cap has a coil attached to it which is the same same diameter as the cap, and a small circuit board attached to the coil which has what I believe may be a voltage regulator, the only markings on it is S6A35
I hope the pics are clear enough.

@Electricme

Good job on the transformer dissection

Wayne

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 22, 2011, 08:17:37 AM

Wayne:

I spent a couple of days (between other things) looking for this device, there is a lack of information on the web about it, but I did manage to come up with the following.

The S6A35 is a Special Purpose Strobe Thyristor, it's a high speed device, and switches up to 400 volts in 3.5 uS (micro seconds)
It's made by Toshiba.

If it is named under a different name then I havent seen it as yet.

Hope this is what you have been looking for.

Have you any idea what brand of camera it came out of?

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WayneJT on April 22, 2011, 08:31:44 AM

Hi Jim

The outer casing of the camera was grey and did not have any labels or any form of identification, nor does the circuit board only stamped with 920 , so sorry but I got no idea what it is, maybe really old or something new, however I did a voltage test and got around 335vdc which is pretty much he same as the rest I have.

Managed to get 96 LEDs lit by a Kodak AA board today, a little dim after attaching the last string of Leds but for me thats quite an achievment, thanks to all the good folk on this thread.

Wayne

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 22, 2011, 09:58:32 PM

Wayne:
Thats too bad about the lack of identification on that camera board, I think it is all part of minitureasation.
The coil and thyristor are made else where and are joined to the main section in another factory.
Haveing a PCB attatched to the main PCB at 90 degrease saves space overall.

We will have to put it aside until you come across another one then do a full pulldown on it.

At All, I havent seen Bill posting over the last 2-3 days, I did hear on the news that Bowling Green had been hit by a tornado, and there was sivere damage, but they didn't say which State or I missed it, has anyone heard anything?

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WayneJT on April 22, 2011, 11:33:25 PM

Hi Jim
Thanks for trying to ID the board for me, I will put it aside for now and maybe one day someone will get hold of the same board and may be able to shed some light on whatever it is.

I got hold of a Carbon filter which is used in filtering alcohol and have been playing around with it, made a basic JT with a green LED and had that running in my bathroom over night, about 8 hours later it was off, but it worked, I figured it was too hungry so I scraped that idea and used it as a battery..zinc in the centre hole then placed it in a mild vinegar and water mixture, 1.125 vdc and 79mA with a JT attached I have a nice and bright white LED, will time this and if it lasts a while I may make a few more and use them as garden lights.

Wayne.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on April 28, 2011, 03:07:18 AM

Hi all,

Obama released his birth certificate today, horay, ring the bells, wave the flag, ..................
only thing is, it's a clever coverup fake, all smoke and mirrors.

More lies, More deception, More falcehood.
I just googled "Obama birth certificate fake" and hit paydirt

Some one who is smarter than the CIA took it apart, he shows you pages of hard evidence

Click here to see for yourselves http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread694949/pg1

He he, On TV Obame even has similar facial expressions that Clinton had when he was cought lying.

Gotta laugh, how the media lackies are grovelling and falling over themselves saying its genuine, ha ha ho ho

The sad thing, one day people are going to wake up and feel really pissed that they were tricked and lied to.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 28, 2011, 10:14:04 AM

Jim:

You are exactly correct Mate! Here is a video of a photoshop expert explaining the manipulations:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3g30VCl_cgk&feature=feedu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3g30VCl_cgk&feature=feedu)

This is all over the web. It is such a sloppy job I wonder if they wanted us to know it was fake? We are in serious trouble over here mate.

Hey, I worked a 14 hour security assignment last night and I used my 2 bulb Fuji circuit for lighting most of the time. It was very cold and I tried to warm my hands on the bulbs but....they were ice cold after over 3 hours of continuous operation. It lit my van up like daytime as well. One day i will have to do a run down test but, so far, on my single AA bat. I have over 12 hours of operation and the bulbs are still very bright.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 28, 2011, 01:39:16 PM

Even if the document is fake , it shows the the O man , is not a natural born citizen , and not eligible to be both parents need to be at least born citizen ...

The media is twisting the issue ...

I am afraid all the recent changes to the law mad it legal to elect Citizen with birth certificate , therefor Oman becomes legal ... this changes the interpretation of the meaning intended for the words natural born citizen .

The media twisted things so much , its enough to loose its mind .

All and all if he stands by that paper , and take him to his word and remove him .

The mention African on the certificate is also questionable since at that time it should have showed Black .

They are trying to mislead people in accepting that citizen and natural born citizen is the same thing.

http://beforeitsnews.com/story/580/068/Fox_Business_Goes_Birther:_Alan_Keyes_On_Citizen_Vs._Natural_Born_Citizen_Issue_And_The_Courts_Evasion_Of_Obamas_Constitutional_Eligibility....html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3xTBTaaCYU&feature=player_embedded

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on April 28, 2011, 10:40:36 PM

Quote from: electricme on April 28, 2011, 03:07:18 AM
Hi all,

Obama released his birth certificate today, horay, ring the bells, wave the flag, ..................
only thing is, it's a clever coverup fake, all smoke and mirrors.

More lies, More deception, More falcehood.
I just googled "Obama birth certificate fake" and hit paydirt

Some one who is smarter than the CIA took it apart, he shows you pages of hard evidence

Click here to see for yourselves http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread694949/pg1

He he, On TV Obame even has similar facial expressions that Clinton had when he was cought lying.

Gotta laugh, how the media lackies are grovelling and falling over themselves saying its genuine, ha ha ho ho

The sad thing, one day people are going to wake up and feel really pissed that they were tricked and lied to.

jim

Jim

I cant understand all the interest in a silly little piece of paper.

I would think that you have been here long enough to recognize some of the tactics being used.

The skeptics here just throw shit out knowing some of it will eventually be accepted .......none of their shit has to be proven.....it is just accepted as truth because it was there on the web in black and white........so it must be true.

Has anything about the birth certificate being fake been proven?

The question I have to ask is why would an intelligent black man run for president if he was not qualified?
Any fool could see that there will be racists out there looking at every detail of his life trying to find fault.
I just cant see Obama as being dumb enough to try to get away with something like that.

I believe it all boils down to racism ...... Obama is black so racist people want to find something wrong.

gary

Edit

do you really think that website is trustworthy or uniased?
The stuff I looked at there looked like propaganda to me.

Edit 2 ......... it may just be me.....but I would have trouble taking anything seriously from someone that chooses to use a name like Bonified Ween

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 29, 2011, 01:33:26 AM

To all and Gary

ATS is cia disinformation , a truth sandwich shit between two slices of truth.

The real issue here that has been ignored by the media , is there are 3 type of citizen .

Citizen mean , born in other country naturalized as American citizen , not eligible .

Born citizen , means born of citizen parents .

Natural born citizen , means born from two born citizen patents.

To be president you need to be a natural born citizen . That is what the constitution states ...

That fact has been disregarded from day one , The media have forged the issue into becoming citizen or not . Mean while most of the states under popular demand changed it unknowingly into making it legal for any citizen to be president .

Now , Those guy are lawyers they know word have different meaning then the usual plain English . The only way Obama could get there is by making a fraud .

So the question is would you accept a conman as a president .

Because before he got there is was illegal for him and after Obama anyone on this planet can be president of the US.

All of that in your face , we all have been used like a tool .

Now a wake up call to people that don't know the real value of the dollar , check the last 6 month of the exchange rate Vs China ,and Canada , then check Canada Vs Us for the same period , China has a fix money system .
They are not telling you but its already over .

So basically they take us for dumb people , and they are right . Almost everyone has a comfortable explanation for them .

The birther issue is a smoke screen . And it works like charm .

I am from Canada here its already over we are the nwo poster boys , most people don't see it or understand or care . We take tax increase with a docile fluoride smile .

Analysis of birth certificate downloaded on the government site. Since trump got it out first , they had to react fast and made the mistake of posting the work folder with all the layers attached , this forged document is most likely because if true Obama is not constitutionally eligible , but what is the penalty for forging documents , i will put a buck on a fine (its only paper )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eOfYwYyS_c&feature=player_embedded#at=381

Its a really basic issue , they take us for stupid morons and unless proven wrong ...

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 29, 2011, 08:36:31 AM

Our Constitution is the law. Obama has violated it many times since his election and now with this phony document, there is more proof. See here for a great explanation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3g30VCl_cgk&feature=feedu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3g30VCl_cgk&feature=feedu)

This "piece of paper" has been totally manipulated, which is fraud, which is a crime. Watch the video if you do not understand how photoshop works.

I resent the implication that, because I, and many others, think the Constitution still matters, we are called racists. There is nothing racist about following the law of the land. For those that think this part of the law is outdated and not needed, which I do not agree, then they can change it...but, until they do, it is still the law and he has violated it.

My concern is that this false document was such an amateur botched job, that they somehow wanted it to be found out as phony. Why is anyone's guess. Any High school kid would know to flatten the fields before posting it.

I am not a racist, not at all. If Bush, or any other President pulled this, I would still feel the same way about it. The law is the law and we all have to go by it, so should our so-called President. I hope he goes to jail.

Bill

PS MK1 is exactly correct about the Natural Born Citizen issue. This all goes so much deeper than the press will report. I know many PI's in my national group that have investigated these issues. I can't wait for Jerome Corsi's book to come out next month. He tells all about the result of his PI's research.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 29, 2011, 04:38:29 PM

Pirate

I think its out already .

Jerome Corsi's book one got out last week .

http://www.amazon.com/Wheres-Birth-Certificate-Eligible-President/dp/1936488299/ref=pd_sim_b_1

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: resonanceman on April 29, 2011, 08:44:54 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on April 29, 2011, 08:36:31 AM
Our Constitution is the law. Obama has violated it many times since his election and now with this phony document, there is more proof. See here for a great explanation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3g30VCl_cgk&feature=feedu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3g30VCl_cgk&feature=feedu)

This "piece of paper" has been totally manipulated, which is fraud, which is a crime. Watch the video if you do not understand how photoshop works.

I resent the implication that, because I, and many others, think the Constitution still matters, we are called racists. There is nothing racist about following the law of the land. For those that think this part of the law is outdated and not needed, which I do not agree, then they can change it...but, until they do, it is still the law and he has violated it.

My concern is that this false document was such an amateur botched job, that they somehow wanted it to be found out as phony. Why is anyone's guess. Any High school kid would know to flatten the fields before posting it.

I am not a racist, not at all. If Bush, or any other President pulled this, I would still feel the same way about it. The law is the law and we all have to go by it, so should our so-called President. I hope he goes to jail.

Bill

PS MK1 is exactly correct about the Natural Born Citizen issue. This all goes so much deeper than the press will report. I know many PI's in my national group that have investigated these issues. I can't wait for Jerome Corsi's book to come out next month. He tells all about the result of his PI's research.

Bill

I stand by my opinion.

Racism can show its ugly head in many ways.
So what if you have found some corruption related to Obama.
Why were you looking so hard?

Did you look so hard at the question of if there were weapons of mass distraction in Iraq? The " decider " decided to invade and simply used the best excuse he could come up with......and thousands died because of his choice.

Did you investigate what makes modern well designed high rise buildings fall straight down into their basements with out tipping over?
The answer is controlled demolition....... there is no other answer.
911 was an inside job........

I am not saying that Obama is pure and honest..........after all he is a politician
In my opinion Obama is as honest as our corrupt system would allow..... I think almost every president sense Kennedy should have been thrown in jail ........ the exception is maybe Clinton ......remember how the republicans ranted about how corrupt he was.......but they had to dig back around 10 years to find anything that even a remote chance of holding water in court.

Bush Jr did more to destabilize the world than all the other presidents combined........he named his axis of evil .......and managed to knock 2 of them off........ now........if you were on that list could you afford to let us win the fight against terrorism?

With all this going on.........you chose to investigate a paper.

My opinion of you has dropped low enough that I see no reason to continue posting here.
My time for expermenting is very limited.......I have lots of things I want to try with JTs......... but I have lots of other things on my to do list.......enough to keep me busy for years.

gary

Edit

Sorry Bill
Its really not all about you.

Something hit me out of the blue.
We all used to be working FOR something........
Now the talk has turned to tearing stuff down........
I have no interest in destroying Obama or anyone else.
My goal is to find little energy solutions so people can live better.

I have no time for dwelling on corruption ........

I have found that in life what you dwell on in effect creates your world.......or at least your world view.

With this last round of posts it hit me that Jeanna was the only one here that has an understanding of what peace is.

I choose to live in peace.
Peace always starts within.
Peace starts with CHOOSING to not find fault with others.

Yes there is corruption out there.
Dwelling on that corruption will not fix it.
The only true way to fix it is by replacing it with truth and peace.
Ego can not fix ego........evil can not fix evil.
If you want to help..... focus on what you can do to HELP people....
Pointing out corruption is NOT helping society in general.... it is just helping others stay focused on the wrong kinds of things.

I just want to spend my limited free time with people that are focused on doing something positive .....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 30, 2011, 03:55:59 AM

Gary:

Sorry...I live in the real world, not some fantasy creation of liberal utopia.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Qwert on April 30, 2011, 05:22:47 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on April 30, 2011, 03:55:59 AM
Gary:

Sorry...I live in the real world, not some fantasy creation of liberal utopia.

Bill

...and you still believe Obama one day goes to the jail? Ever??

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: twinbeard on April 30, 2011, 05:33:33 AM

Bill,

Sorry to say it, but If all I had was a faded copy of my birth certificate, and had to release it, I would clean it up too. It HAS been touched up, but has not been altered. If you need to see some of my graphics work to prove that I know what I am talking about, I will be happy to link you. Do not be taken in by that birther propaganda bullshit. It is a distraction. That technique is called "the big lie," wherein you repeat a thing long enough and loud enough and people start to believe it. They are showing a vector graphics program tweaking a bitmap scanned. There is a big difference. That import process leaves further artifacts as well.

Cheers
Twinbeard

Quote from: Pirate88179 on April 30, 2011, 03:55:59 AM
Gary:

Sorry...I live in the real world, not some fantasy creation of liberal utopia.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 30, 2011, 06:16:52 AM

Quote from: twinbeard on April 30, 2011, 05:33:33 AM
Bill,

Sorry to say it, but If all I had was a faded copy of my birth certificate, and had to release it, I would clean it up too. It HAS been touched up, but has not been altered. If you need to see some of my graphics work to prove that I know what I am talking about, I will be happy to link you. Do not be taken in by that birther propaganda bullshit. It is a distraction. That technique is called "the big lie," wherein you repeat a thing long enough and loud enough and people start to believe it. They are showing a vector graphics program tweaking a bitmap scanned. There is a big difference. That import process leaves further artifacts as well.

Cheers
Twinbeard

Well, what you say may be true about old docs BUT, consider that his Father names his country as Kenya. Kenya was not called Kenya ever, until 1963. Also, the name of the hospital on the doc was never used until 1978. This is listed on that hospital's website.

You can find all of this here: (Links included)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenya)

http://www.kapiolani.org/women-and-children/about-us/default.aspx (http://www.kapiolani.org/women-and-children/about-us/default.aspx)

And, remember that Obama said in 2008 that his mother never ever got a long form birth certificate, but now, we have "one". It is a miracle. Anyone can look this stuff up for themselves.

This entire thing is bogus. Why they think we will fall for it is beyond me.

Do not take my word, or anyone else's, for it. Look these things up for yourself.

The term "African-American? Was never used in 1961. The term was Negro. Later, in the 60's they wanted "Black". And much later it then changed to African-American. But, not in 1961.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WayneJT on April 30, 2011, 08:20:44 AM

Hi All
Not meaning to get back on topic..oh yeah I am.

I have a AA Kodak board and have a 240v 7w CFL unmodified running from it sorta, it is bright and has a high flicker rate sort of strobe like.
any of you experienced guys know why this is happening and is there a way to correct this, I have a feeling it may be due to the transformer being a little under powered,or the cfl may need modding, but thats just an uneducated guess, when I connect a flicker flame globe to the same board it works very well, but cfl's I have problems getting a steady light, any one had this problem or know why this is occuring.

Wayne.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 30, 2011, 09:45:45 AM

Wayne:

That sounds like a frequency problem. Try placing a strong neo on or near the transformer on the board. That should raise the frequency. Other than that, I have no idea what to tell you, except, congratulations on lighting a cfl...not very easy to do.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WayneJT on April 30, 2011, 10:09:13 AM

Thanks Bill
I just tried a neo near the transformer but still no luck, I originally had a 10k pot just before the cfl and that is what gave me the strobe effect, without it it would flash once the hv cap was charged, about every 4 seconds, so maybe I should be focusing on the resistance, I don't know why this would make a difference but it does and gets pretty close to being fully lit, anyway will keep playing with it and report back any new developments.

Wayne.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: synchro1 on April 30, 2011, 10:10:38 AM

Jeanna for president!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 30, 2011, 10:47:17 AM

Quote from: WayneJT on April 30, 2011, 10:09:13 AM
Thanks Bill
I just tried a neo near the transformer but still no luck, I originally had a 10k pot just before the cfl and that is what gave me the strobe effect, without it it would flash once the hv cap was charged, about every 4 seconds, so maybe I should be focusing on the resistance, I don't know why this would make a difference but it does and gets pretty close to being fully lit, anyway will keep playing with it and report back any new developments.

Wayne.

all of the boards I, and most folks, have played with have that cap removed. Maybe this is the problem?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: twinbeard on April 30, 2011, 11:03:42 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on April 30, 2011, 06:16:52 AM
Well, what you say may be true about old docs BUT, consider that his Father names his country as Kenya. Kenya was not called Kenya ever, until 1963. Also, the name of the hospital on the doc was never used until 1978.
This is listed on that hospital's website.

You can find all of this here: (Links included)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenya)

The territory in question was under dispute at the time of his birth, as it had been for more than a decade. As is common even today, perhaps the British colonial name was not used by the locals. Were his father part of traditional family from a country fighting, either literally or diplomaticlly for independence, he would have likely given the name of the country as the name used by the native inhabitants, not the name used by the colonial power being ousted. This is more likely the case due to "East Africa" being listed to further define the location of Kenya, which would not be widely known at the time.

"From October 1952 to December 1959, Kenya was under a state of emergency arising from the "Mau Mau" rebellion against British colonial rule. During this period, African participation in the political process increased rapidly.

The first direct elections for Africans to the Legislative Council took place in 1957.

The Kenya African Democratic Union (KADU) was founded in 1960, to challenge KANU."

"On 12 December 1964 the Republic of Kenya was proclaimed"

http://www.kapiolani.org/women-and-children/about-us/default.aspx (http://www.kapiolani.org/women-and-children/about-us/default.aspx)

From the site listed:
Concerned about the welfare of Hawaii's mothers, Queen Kapiâ€˜olani held luau and bazaars to raise the $8,000 needed to open Kapiâ€˜olani Maternity Home in 1890.

Quote from: Pirate88179 on April 30, 2011, 06:16:52 AM
And, remember that Obama said in 2008 that his mother never ever got a long form birth certificate, but now, we have "one". It is a miracle. Anyone can look this stuff up for themselves.

Looks like they pulled a copy from the original book to me. It is entirely possible that his mother did not have a copy.

Quote from: Pirate88179 on April 30, 2011, 06:16:52 AM
Do not take my word, or anyone else's, for it. Look these things up for yourself.

Well, I did. You can see the results above.

Quote from: Pirate88179 on April 30, 2011, 06:16:52 AM
The term "African-American? Was never used in 1961. The term was Negro. Later, in the 60's they wanted "Black". And much later it then changed to African-American. But, not in 1961.

Hawaii is a little different than Mississippi. For example, the locals would still call you and I "haole" because of our pale skin. I do work in a south pacific nation that was formerly a British protectorate, where the term for white people is "imatang." Likely when his father said African, that is what they put onto the form.

All of this was started by people like the ones I used to win money from at the golf course. During the round, they would complain about this or that "foolish liberal policy". Afterwards, they would have a few drinks to lessen the sting of the bets I had just won, and it would degenerate into something along the lines of "fucking nigger in the fucking white house" which is what was in their mind all along... they just needed the fire water to loosen up enough to say it. Just a word to the wise;)

Twinbeard

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 30, 2011, 11:14:48 AM

Twinbeard:

Thanks, your links just proved my point. That was exactly what I was saying. So this was faked and I am glad we agree. Now why this was done so in such a poor manner is another question.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: twinbeard on April 30, 2011, 11:22:26 AM

Not sure how you figure that, Bill. I refuted every point.

Quote from: Pirate88179 on April 30, 2011, 11:14:48 AM
Twinbeard:

Thanks, your links just proved my point. That was exactly what I was saying. So this was faked and I am glad we agree. Now why this was done so in such a poor manner is another question.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 30, 2011, 11:29:51 AM

Twinbeard:

No, you confirmed them. The hospital link you provided showed the name was totally different than what was on the document released by the Whitehouse. Just as my links did. also, you confirmed that Kenya was not a term used prior to 1963 so, that was both of my points. Racism has nothing to do with it and I am tired of folks raising that as a last chance defense. It is not even hidden racism as you claim. I don't care what the color of skin someone has that is trying to destroy my country, I will not like them. Skin color never mattered to me, ever. Being a Socialist and protecting terrorism does matter to me. Lying and providing falsified documents also matter to me.

Where are his school records? Oh, that's right, they are sealed. Why?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: synchro1 on April 30, 2011, 11:49:01 AM

A woman produced several copies of birth certificates from twins born the day after Barack, and they have the same hospital name as his "Kapiolani Maternity @ Gynacological Hospital".

The outstanding flaw in Obama's certificate is the absence of an embossed seal that can be seen on those other copies. Proof it was not copied from an authentic original but created by computer.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: twinbeard on April 30, 2011, 12:01:15 PM

Bill,

With all due respect, I call bullshit.

Quote from: Pirate88179 on April 30, 2011, 11:29:51 AM
Twinbeard:

No, you confirmed them. The hospital link you provided showed the name was totally different than what was on the document released by the Whitehouse.

That was the same link you provided. I pulled out the parts you missed. No, it simply had gynecology part in addition to the traditional name, which was likely added to the name sometime after 1890. We are reading the same numbers and letters, right? 1890. 1890. 1890. 1890 < 1961.

Quote from: Pirate88179 on April 30, 2011, 11:29:51 AM
Just as my links did. also, you confirmed that Kenya was not a term used prior to 1963 so, that was both of my points.

No... the West did not use the name Kenya until 1963, because the British were claiming the place as well. The Kenyans used it from AT LEAST 1960, and likely well before. I have friends and business associates in Nairobi... I will be happy to ask them if you like, but they will tell you the same thing I am. What did the British call us during the Revolutionary war?

Quote from: Pirate88179 on April 30, 2011, 11:29:51 AM
Racism has nothing to do with it and I am tired of folks raising that as a last chance defense.

Perhaps you are not racist... I did not even make that claim. I will make the claim that a great many of the teabaggers whom I have had the misfortune of dealing with are blatantly and obviously racist, particularly after a snifter or two, and they are often the ones waving this "birther" flag most vicariously. Follow the trail of breadcrumbs... politics is a dirty game.

Quote from: Pirate88179 on April 30, 2011, 11:29:51 AM
It is not even hidden racism as you claim. I don't care what the color of skin someone has that is trying to destroy my country, I will not like them.

If you want the people destoying America you should be going after Bernanke, et. al.
Fractional reserve fiat currency has done more damage to this country that you can imagine, and is also unconstitutional, BTW.

Quote from: Pirate88179 on April 30, 2011, 11:29:51 AM
Skin color never mattered to me, ever. Being a Socialist and protecting terrorism does matter to me. Lying and providing falsified documents also matter to me.

Again... its the banks using robosigners to take houses and undermine America.
Further, if he is a socialist, he is a damn rich one. If you have ever been poor and without medical insurance, I'm sure you can attest how hard it is to get decent treatment... so bad that many in the northern US go to Canada for treatment.

Quote from: Pirate88179 on April 30, 2011, 11:29:51 AM
Where are his school records? Oh, that's right, they are sealed. Why?

Mine are too. And yours. Its called federal law, and the right to privacy.

Cheers,
Twinbeard

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: twinbeard on April 30, 2011, 12:05:26 PM

I daresay that if you take, say, your corporate seal, emboss something, and put it in a book for 50 years in a wet climate, you will not see any embossing on it either. From the few untouched up letters on the page, it looks like there was water damage to the original document book as well.

Quote from: synchro1 on April 30, 2011, 11:49:01 AM
A woman produced several copies of birth certificates from twins born the day after Barack, and they have the same hospital name as his "Kapiolani Maternity @ Gynacological Hospital".

The outstanding flaw in Obama's certificate is the absence of an embossed seal that can be seen on those other copies. Proof it was not copied from an authentic original but created by computer.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: synchro1 on April 30, 2011, 12:20:30 PM

A truly authentic copy would be freshly re-embossed with the official seal.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 30, 2011, 12:23:02 PM

Quote from: twinbeard on April 30, 2011, 12:01:15 PM
Bill,

With all due respect, I call bullshit.
That was the same link you provided. I pulled out the parts you missed. No, it simply had gynecology part in addition to the traditional name, which was likely added to the name sometime after 1890. We are reading the same numbers and letters, right? 1890. 1890. 1890. 1890 < 1961.

No... the West did not use the name Kenya until 1963, because the British were claiming the place as well. The Kenyans used it from AT LEAST 1960, and likely well before. I have friends and business associates in Nairobi... I will be happy to ask them if you like, but they will tell you the same thing I am. What did the British call us during the Revolutionary war?

Perhaps you are not racist... I did not even make that claim. I will make the claim that a great many of the teabaggers whom I have had the misfortune of dealing with are blatantly and obviously racist, particularly after a snifter or two, and they are often the ones waving this "birther" flag most vicariously. Follow the trail of breadcrumbs... politics is a dirty game.

If you want the people destoying America you should be going after Bernanke, et. al.
Fractional reserve fiat currency has done more damage to this country that you can imagine, and is also unconstitutional, BTW.

Again... its the banks using robosigners to take houses and undermine America.
Further, if he is a socialist, he is a damn rich one. If you have ever been poor and without medical insurance, I'm sure you can attest how hard it is to get decent treatment... so bad that many in the northern US go to Canada for treatment.

Mine are too. And yours. Its called federal law, and the right to privacy.

Cheers,
Twinbeard

Yes, the west did not use the name Kenya until 1963. Gee, Hawaii is in the west so....what is your point?

My school records are not sealed, and neither are yours. As a PI, I get paid to check out people's school records, SSN, Military records, criminal records, etc. Why did you think they were? Did you never apply for a job and they asked for your college transcripts? Try telling them they are sealed and see if you get that job.

Anyway, I know from your posts on this site that you are a good guy so, I guess we can just agree to disagree. Everyone has the right to their opinion and you have heard mine and I have heard yours. Evidently, neither one of us will change the others mind so...we can leave it at that and get back on topic.

I appreciate the exchange of information with you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: twinbeard on April 30, 2011, 09:28:17 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on April 30, 2011, 12:23:02 PM
Yes, the west did not use the name Kenya until 1963. Gee, Hawaii is in the west so....what is your point?

Not so much so. There is a western presence, and a strong one, but island culture is still island culture. You are questioning the acts of a bureaucrat 50 years ago in making an official recording.

Quote from: Pirate88179 on April 30, 2011, 12:23:02 PM
My school records are not sealed, and neither are yours. As a PI, I get paid to check out people's school records, SSN, Military records, criminal records, etc. Why did you think they were? Did you never apply for a job and they asked for your college transcripts? Try telling them they are sealed and see if you get that job.

It practically takes an act of congress to get my HS transcripts through official channels.
IIRC, it took me showing up in person with 2 forms of ID and a signature to get a copy once upon a time when I wanted one.

While there are blatant backdoors in most school databases that can be exploited quite easily, that is a different ball of wax. It might be different on a district by district or state by
state level, but thats the way it is around here. As to job... I have been self employed or employed outside corporate America for most of my life, and have never been asked for a transcript. Just not interested in selling myself into slavery, thats all. I get away with it because people need what I can do... things that few can, and things you cannot learn in school. It comes down to this... if you can be self sufficient enough, you do not NEED the bureaucracy to do your thing. Sure, it pissed the suits off, but most of them are not worth the time it takes to deal with them anyway.

Quote from: Pirate88179 on April 30, 2011, 12:23:02 PM
Anyway, I know from your posts on this site that you are a good guy so, I guess we can just agree to disagree. Everyone has the right to their opinion and you have heard mine and I have heard yours. Evidently, neither one of us will change the others mind so...we can leave it at that and get back on topic.

Agreed, and likewise on the first part.

Quote from: Pirate88179 on April 30, 2011, 12:23:02 PM
I appreciate the exchange of information with you.

And you:) I just hate to see you led down the primrose path...

Cheers,
Twinbeard

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 30, 2011, 10:41:56 PM

Obama had no choice to keep the war going to be president , because in war time the constitution is on hold .

The point is you have to be 3dr generation American to be president . This was specifically done to make sure no Brits would ever be president . LOL

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: protonmom on May 01, 2011, 12:33:11 PM

Why is ONE person allowed to hijack this thread, when others have been told to stay on topic many times over? I do not come here to OU to learn about Obama or Anti Obama. We all have our opinions about the guy but this is NOT the place to air them.
A new thread should be started for those interested in "discussing" the issue of Obama.
I thought this thread was supposed to be about the joule thief only. Was I mistaken?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 01, 2011, 12:48:38 PM

Quote from: protonmom on May 01, 2011, 12:33:11 PM
Why is ONE person allowed to hijack this thread, when others have been told to stay on topic many times over? I do not come here to OU to learn about Obama or Anti Obama. We all have our opinions about the guy but this is NOT the place to air them.
A new thread should be started for those interested in "discussing" the issue of Obama.
I thought this thread was supposed to be about the joule thief only. Was I mistaken?

Hey, its no big deal. But yes, you are mistaken as there were at least 4 of us discussing this topic, not one person as you said. Throughout this entire topic we have, from time to time, strayed to a topic that was of some importance to several of the members. I see no problem with that.

I agree that this should not be turned into a political discussion topic, but I have no fears of that happening. As you said, anyone can open a new topic for that. This was just a few of the longtime members of this group exchanging some information and opinions. I think you will see that we will now be back on topic so, no worries.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: protonmom on May 01, 2011, 01:36:23 PM

@Bill
I meant ONE person who OPENED the Obama topic. I realize there were several who were in the discussion. Glad to hear the thread will now be back to the joule thief.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on May 01, 2011, 03:12:04 PM

Quote from: WayneJT on April 30, 2011, 08:20:44 AM
Hi All
Not meaning to get back on topic..oh yeah I am.

I have a AA Kodak board and have a 240v 7w CFL unmodified running from it sorta, it is bright and has a high flicker rate sort of strobe like.
any of you experienced guys know why this is happening and is there a way to correct this, I have a feeling it may be due to the transformer being a little under powered,or the cfl may need modding, but thats just an uneducated guess, when I connect a flicker flame globe to the same board it works very well, but cfl's I have problems getting a steady light, any one had this problem or know why this is occuring.

Wayne.

Hi Wayne

These boards operate at a far higher frequency than the 50Hz/60Hz that the CFL's are designed to work at... Bill was correct in suggesting a frequency problem. Depending on the circuit differences of these designs differing results and effects occur when attempting to operate an unmodified CFL. Results will vary from either not working at all... to attempting to strike up (rapid flickering effect) You can get a reasonable light from them though by dismantling and removing the circuit board completely and drive the tube directly!! In one of my earlier posts you can see how I held a CFL lit up by a camera flash board and AA cell all built into the base. Makes for a brilliant party trick...the amazing hand held lamp without wires!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 01, 2011, 08:53:21 PM

Hi All,

Hmmmm OK, if everyone agrees there has been a good number of opinions expressed in the above posts, and perhaps we can all take a quiet time out (me to) and put this "topic" to bed.

It was me, electricme who started the thing about the obama certificate and I can see I opened a can of worms, so I apologise for side tracking the forum, and I would now like to suggest it be closed and we can all get back into making the Joule Thief again and it's associated circuits.

jim
***************

@ Wayne,

The flicker flame bulb works on the same principle as the neon bulb, it takes at least 90 volts to light the electrode, your electronics is now putting out enough elect to do this. The flickering tells me the voltage builds up then strikes the neon (turns it on), then the voltage is used up and it turns off, the charge rebuilds, the neon lights and this continues adinfinatum. To get the neon to stay on, you need to switch it faster or put more juice into the circuit.
If you have an adjustable power supply there, try increasing the input battery voltage to 2 volts, or reducing the cap to a very low value one.

Use a ceramic pF cap, see if that works

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WayneJT on May 06, 2011, 04:43:57 AM

Hi Guys

Thank you Crowclaw and Jim for the info regarding the cfl in strobe mode, however I did not manage to stop it from flickering, only option was to cut out the electronics from the cfl like was mentioned in this thread, it would have been nice to get off the shelf cfl's to work without the mod, but never mind I now have a 7w 240v cfl running from a kodak AA board with a modded cfl, its been on now for 14 hours running from a D battery, and makes a great night light.
Will post a pic of some of the other night lights I have been working on as someone out there may like to try a few designs, the little dude meditating has a RGB Led inserted into the candle on his lap which is really cool at night,this is a basic JT with AA and runs for about 3 weeks, the clear tube with 2 blue leds is also a basic JT and is something I copied from one Bill designed sometime ago,it runs for just over a week, I should have reduced the number of turns in the coil on that one, as the light although has a nice effect with the hot glue covering the light seems to fade slightly in the centre, next one will be only 3 coils.
The last one is also a basic JT and has a bright white led, it lasts over 3 weeks on a AA, it has a blue shottie glass covering the led and an inverted candle holder over the top to diffuse the light, very nice at night.
I think the cfl's will be the way to go as far as light output is concerned, it is so far the brightest, but being a cfl it will most likely not last too long, I am doing a time trial on it now, after 14 hours D battery with no load is at 1.345v, this may last longer than I expect.

Wayne.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: twinbeard on May 06, 2011, 06:58:43 AM

Hi All,
I have been fooling with some variations of resonantly tuned JT circuits driving small exciter/magnifying transmitter towers. I shot some video of two of these running concurrently, with a crystal radio set in between, the output of which is then fed into my stereo amplifier. Interesting sounds abound:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ze1Dzjo-Zjs

Cheers,
Twinbeard

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: FreeEnergyInfo on May 06, 2011, 07:05:03 AM

NO BATERY !!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feRdjDglbq0

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tommy8482 on May 15, 2011, 11:30:27 AM

Hi,
This is my first post. I read all the posts in this thread and I want to present a diagram and some photos.

I want to ask for help in finding the type of transformer or coil.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 15, 2011, 02:34:42 PM

Quote from: tommy8482 on May 15, 2011, 11:30:27 AM
I want to ask for help in finding the type of transformer or coil.

A very creative circuit. It looks to me like you have two Joule thiefs running in parallel. If so, you should be able to remove one of the transistors and the circuit should still work. If that works then the input side of transformer is equivalent to a Joule thief toroid (two coils with a common end). In that case there is a second set of identical coils on the transformer you are using using for he second Joule thief.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 15, 2011, 11:34:12 PM

Hi Tommy8482
Welcome to the Joule Thief thread.

Where did you come across this one? it seems to be driving the tube nice and bright.
The transistors look like they came out from the same stable to those that are in the disposable camera circuits. Nice big HI Voltage transformer there.

Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on May 16, 2011, 12:42:38 AM

Quote from: electricme on May 15, 2011, 11:34:12 PM
Hi Tommy8482
Welcome to the Joule Thief thread.

Where did you come across this one? it seems to be driving the tube nice and bright.
The transistors look like they came out from the same stable to those that are in the disposable camera circuits. Nice big HI Voltage transformer there.

Jim

looks to me like a driver for a ccfl out of a scanner or such...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tommy8482 on May 16, 2011, 06:41:01 AM

I think, this is an old scanner's cfl driver. I found it in my old stuff. I'd like to know what kind of transformer is this to replicate the circuit.

It seems, both collectors and bases of transistors are connected through transformer's coils.

(Sorry for my language if it is not correct.)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 17, 2011, 06:07:39 AM

Tommy8482:

I spent a couple of hours last night trawling the net looking for info on that transformer and didn't find anything.
Only thing I could recomend, is you take it apart.
Find the top layer of winds, then locate the last turn and then undo each turn (keep a count) write down what end goes to what pin, keep doing this for each seperate coil/s until there are mo more turns left on the former bobbin, then you should have the info.
It's tedious and takes a fair time.
Hope this helps.

At All:
I found out that the tiny transformers out of disposeable cameras come apart more easily if you "boil" them in hot water, this soffens the glue so the 2 graphite halfs can come apart easier.
(Indestructables had this info)

Wilby:
Yes I think you are right, I can remember seeing one I took out of a very old scanner a few years ago, the tiny long thin tube was really something, so fragile, like a single strand of spaghetty!!!!

I don't know if anyone has noticed or not or if it is just me but my computer is taking forever to open Overunity webpages and it takes wayyyyyyyyyy to long, sometimes only the top half opens, the change came about because of the E-Bay twin screens have been added.
Has anyone else had this problem??????

Lastly, I got a CFL to light up at last after several failures.
My public thanks to Pirate, Protonmom and WayneCL who have helped by sending me camera parts and parts.

I now have a voltage data logger which will be pressed into service, (my thanks to Wayne), but I'm learning how it works before I post some charts.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Flux4Energizer on May 21, 2011, 10:28:26 AM

@All,

Is there anybody who has a good Joule Thief circuit for me???
I need a JT which can power up 1, 2 or 3 superflux leds from a single battery.
Amp draw is less important then brightness!!!
Leds need to be at least 80% bright.

Thanks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on May 21, 2011, 12:00:09 PM

Quote from: Flux4Energizer on May 21, 2011, 10:28:26 AM
@All,

Is there anybody who has a good Joule Thief circuit for me???
I need a JT which can power up 1, 2 or 3 superflux leds from a single battery.
Amp draw is less important then brightness!!!
Leds need to be at least 80% bright.

Thanks

http://www.youtube.com/user/xee2vids#p/a/u/1/_CZTO33Of7o (http://www.youtube.com/user/xee2vids#p/a/u/1/_CZTO33Of7o)

see if that works for you.. that 10mm led he is using isn't a regular 10mm it pulls 100ma from 3.4 volts..
hope this helps..

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Flux4Energizer on May 21, 2011, 02:12:03 PM

Quote from: kooler on May 21, 2011, 12:00:09 PM
http://www.youtube.com/user/xee2vids#p/a/u/1/_CZTO33Of7o (http://www.youtube.com/user/xee2vids#p/a/u/1/_CZTO33Of7o)

see if that works for you.. that 10mm led he is using isn't a regular 10mm it pulls 100ma from 3.4 volts..
hope this helps..

robbie

@Robbie
Thanks for the link, looks very promising.
Do you know the amp draw of the circuit when driving the led?
This would meet my needs when i parallel the 3 leds up.

Regards,

Flux

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Flux4Energizer on May 23, 2011, 02:18:12 PM

I finished my solar garden light today.
Thank you Kooler for your help.
I will post the solar circuit tonight or tomorrow, i made my own circuit in stead of using lidmotors circuit.
I have a new laptop and need to install software to shrink the pictures first.
Also i will take a tew foto's tonight (dark action foto's).

Regards,

Flux4Energizer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on May 27, 2011, 10:37:29 PM

All

Look at this ...

http://pesn.com/2011/05/27/9501835_Steven_E_Jones_demonstrates_overunity_circuit/

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 27, 2011, 11:52:09 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on May 27, 2011, 10:37:29 PM
All

Look at this ...

http://pesn.com/2011/05/27/9501835_Steven_E_Jones_demonstrates_overunity_circuit/

Mark

He may be a physics professor but he does not seem to understand electronic circuits. He appears to be measuring the instantaneous output power produced by the collapsing magnetic field of the output coil against the simultaneous input power. This is indeed over unity for an instant but only because the energy stored in the coil over a long part of the cycle is being released in a very short time at that point in the cycle. If the "energy in" over a complete cycle is compared to the "energy out" over a complete cycle the efficiency is less than 50%. If you take a car battery with a trickle charger and let it charge for 24 hours and then put a 1 ohm resistor on the battery and measure the input to output power it will also be over unity for a short time. But that is not a true measurement of over unity because it is using stored energy.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on May 27, 2011, 11:53:18 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on May 27, 2011, 10:37:29 PM
All

Look at this ...

http://pesn.com/2011/05/27/9501835_Steven_E_Jones_demonstrates_overunity_circuit/

Mark

Flux4Energizer
you just built that circuit in your new solar light..
can you feel the 8 times over unity.. haha
if he thinks thats 8 times over then he needs to fine tune a 9 volt in that circuit..
oh, guys i just stuck my scope probes in my wall socket and noticed over 120 in gain.. oh wait i have to pay for it at the end of the month don't I..
wow.. man am i starting to sound like a dick head.. lol.. haha

later
robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on May 28, 2011, 12:29:42 AM

all
sorry for the last post.. not really..
question here..= how much energy does it take to run a 12 watt led ..
I'll let you guys know very soon.. alot less than you think..
i'll call it my cop= 45 circuit..
joking.. it isn't over unity.. by no means.
i would have shot a small video but i think i messed my camera up..
cuz after i got hit with that hv in that old video it has slowly went south since then..
i get some batteries for my old camera i get it on utube..

i'm finally getting my brain back.. after all my bad luck..

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on May 28, 2011, 01:22:09 AM

Quote from: kooler on May 28, 2011, 12:29:42 AM
all
sorry for the last post.. not really..
question here..= how much energy does it take to run a 12 watt led ..
I'll let you guys know very soon.. alot less than you think..
i'll call it my cop= 45 circuit..
joking.. it isn't over unity.. by no means.
i would have shot a small video but i think i messed my camera up..
cuz after i got hit with that hv in that old video it has slowly went south since then..
i get some batteries for my old camera i get it on utube..

i'm finally getting my brain back.. after all my bad luck..

robbie

How to measure circuit efficiency >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smOiVmKv9f8

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 28, 2011, 03:31:55 AM

Sterling said in the article something like it ran for 9 hours with little or no voltage drop on the battery....and he said normally the battery would be 1/2 drained with a JT circuit.

What is he talking about? We have circuits here on this topic we have built that will run an led for months....that is months not 9 hours. Many of us have done this.

I wish he would do more research before writing such inaccurate information.

Bill

PS Gadget's Forever LED light will run for over a year, I believe is what he said. I know there are many other circuits that will do much better than 9-24 hours.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Flux4Energizer on May 28, 2011, 06:34:08 AM

Quote from: kooler on May 27, 2011, 11:53:18 PM
Flux4Energizer
you just built that circuit in your new solar light..
can you feel the 8 times over unity.. haha
if he thinks thats 8 times over then he needs to fine tune a 9 volt in that circuit..
oh, guys i just stuck my scope probes in my wall socket and noticed over 120 in gain.. oh wait i have to pay for it at the end of the month don't I..
wow.. man am i starting to sound like a dick head.. lol.. haha

later
robbie

Kooler,

Yes i build that circuit (your BWJT) and what do you think?
This is really giving me OU this light runs forever (till the parts give up), but my OU comes from the solar panel hahaha.
Hope you come up with new circuits soon Robbie, because i can use even more efficiÃ«nt circuits.

At the moment I'm busy with something really different. I'm programming a MCU for use in (don't know how it's called in english) a lightbox for making PCB boards.

Regards,

Laurens

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: JouleSeeker on May 28, 2011, 09:15:33 AM

Quote from: xee2 on May 27, 2011, 11:52:09 PM
He may be a physics professor but he does not seem to understand electronic circuits. He appears to be measuring the instantaneous output power produced by the collapsing magnetic field of the output coil against the simultaneous input power. This is indeed over unity for an instant but only because the energy stored in the coil over a long part of the cycle is being released in a very short time at that point in the cycle. If the "energy in" over a complete cycle is compared to the "energy out" over a complete cycle the efficiency is less than 50%. If you take a car battery with a trickle charger and let it charge for 24 hours and then put a 1 ohm resistor on the battery and measure the input to output power it will also be over unity for a short time. But that is not a true measurement of over unity because it is using stored energy.

This is Dr. Steven Jones.
@Xee2: I am an Emeritus Professor of Physics and I did not make the mistake of measuring Power ( input and output) over part of a cycle. I measure the input power over numerous cycles, typically approx 25 cycles, for both the input power and the output power, as I explained.

You will find this on the video, and on my posts on this circuit here:

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=853.0

@pirate -- Sterling was talking about a particular JT circuit that depleted a rechargeable battery that was ALREADY mostly depleted when the test began. It is true that some JT circuits are much more efficient than this particular JT.
Note that the circuit I'm testing with apparent OU results is not a standard JT circuit. See the schematic at the above URL.

Also, I hope it came through on the vid that this device needs to be replicated and tested further BEFORE one can be sure of OU for it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: neptune on May 28, 2011, 09:23:00 AM

I do not normally follow the Joule Thief Thread . Let us give the Professor the respect he deserves . He has said the it needs replication and further investigation .I do not have access to scopes etc . The great thing about this circuit is its simplicity . I believe someone will soon loop it . As regards Sterling Allen , he can not know everything , he does his best . Sure beats Mainstream Media , where you would get some dumb blonde asking is it available in pink .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: JouleSeeker on May 28, 2011, 09:23:54 AM

I actually began a thread on this "reverse-JT" circuit here at OU on May 20th:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10773.msg287594#msg287594

You may wish to reply there, or at the OUResearch thread listed above.

-- Steven J (retired Prof.)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hartiberlin on May 28, 2011, 09:24:00 AM

Quote from: FreeEnergyInfo on May 06, 2011, 07:05:03 AM
NO BATTERY !!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feRdjDglbq0

Youtube says the user has deleted this video.
What was it ?

Many thanks.

P.S. Who has replicated already Professor Steven Jones circuit and can confirm
the overunity there ?

We should have a new thread then about it I guess...

Regards, Stefan.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 28, 2011, 01:26:51 PM

Quote from: JouleSeeker on May 28, 2011, 09:15:33 AM
This is Dr. Steven Jones.
@Xee2: I am an Emeritus Professor of Physics and I did not make the mistake of measuring Power ( input and output) over part of a cycle. I measure the input power over numerous cycles, typically approx 25 cycles, for both the input power and the output power, as I explained.

You will find this on the video, and on my posts on this circuit here:

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=853.0 (http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=853.0)

@pirate -- Sterling was talking about a particular JT circuit that depleted a rechargeable battery that was ALREADY mostly depleted when the test began. It is true that some JT circuits are much more efficient than this particular JT.
Note that the circuit I'm testing with apparent OU results is not a standard JT circuit. See the schematic at the above URL.

Also, I hope it came through on the vid that this device needs to be replicated and tested further BEFORE one can be sure of OU for it.

Dr. Jones:

I meant no disrespect to you or your device. I have been following your work for a while now and I am impressed with your efforts and look forward to possibly attempting a replication.

I just get tired of reading things on the net about the JT circuit like..."Only good for lighting an led for a few hours", or "Interesting circuit but it can't be used for anything", etc. (I see this in Youtube comments all of the time, written by folks that obviously have no clue as to what a decent JT can do.)

I realize that Sterling is a very busy person and I understand now your explanation to his battery ref. in his article. I assumed (Never a good thing to do) that it was just more incorrect information circulating about on the JT circuit in general.

I wish you the best of luck with your circuit and the testing results.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on May 31, 2011, 09:06:44 AM

@ ALL, from Freepow !

I have'nt been on here for a while...

Can someone give me a simple diagram on these...

1 - I have a small solar cell that charges my super cap up, and I want it to stop charging when cap is almost full, at around 2v, need a simple circuit to stop cap being charged when it reaches about 1.5-2.0 volts !

2 - a very simple joulethief that charges a capacitor any HV cap with only microfarads up super-fast, just like a disposable camera...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nul-points on May 31, 2011, 10:42:25 AM

Quote from: freepow on May 31, 2011, 09:06:44 AM
[...]
Can someone give me a simple diagram on these...

1 - I have a small solar cell that charges my super cap up, and I want it to stop charging when cap is almost full, at around 2v, need a simple circuit to stop cap being charged when it reaches about 1.5-2.0 volts !
[...].

hi freepow

this basic schematic may do the job for you

if the voltage o/p of the solar panel (SP1) is greater than around 3.5V, then it will charge the Super Cap (SC1) up to approx 1.8V and hold it there until you either discharge or remove the cap

you'll need to choose R1 to suit your panel min & max o/p voltages:

let's say that the minimum useful o/p voltage of the panel is 3.5V
and we want the zener to have a minimum 'holding' current of 5mA

R1 = (3.5-3.2)/0.005 = 60 ohms approx (use 62 ohms)

with 9V max panel o/p, the zener would dissipate ((9-3.2)/62)*3.2 = 0.3W, which would be acceptable

so, with a 0.5W 3.2V zener, you could use panels which provide a max o/p in the range, say, 4 to 9V

12V max panel o/p would be close to the power limit for the zener - ok for occasional short-term peaks - but unwise for long-term average (in case the panel overvolts)

so for max panel o/ps in the range 9 - 18V, increase R1 value to, say, 120 ohms, and increase R3 to 20 ohms (double up Watts ratings for R1 & R3, also)

but why use a panel which is regularly generating max o/p >9V, if you only want to collect 1.5 - 2V in your Super Cap?

so parts list looks like:-

Z1 - 3.2V 0.5W Zener
R1 - 62 ohm 10W (for panel max o/p in range 6-9V)
R2 - 10K ohm 0.2W (default load)
R3 - 10 ohm 1W (inrush current limiter - 20 ohm for 9-18V panel)
Q1 - medium-power, medium gain NPN transistor, eg BFY51 (with 'star' heatsink)
D1 - low-leakage current rectifier diode (ie. not schottky), eg, try 1N4007 initially

hope this helps
np

http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com (http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on May 31, 2011, 09:34:21 PM

@Stefan,

I just went and visited this web address http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Les_Kraut to see more about this new JT.

Yes, Les has replicated the Prof Stevens device and he states he got energy 8 times out of it.

There is a video some where taken by a Sterling D. Allen of it, he visited the Prof and Les so if the info has been removed from YouTube then perhapse if the Prof or Sterling reads this, they may consider sending a copy directly to you.

My congrats to the Prof, well done.

Hope this helps us all.

jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on June 01, 2011, 03:47:23 AM

@ nul-points, Thanks very much !

The reason I am using actually a 4.0v solar panel outside feeding in to the house, I have to switch it on to charge the super cap.
The power from the solar panel go's through a Red charge indicator LED and onto the super cap, as soon as the super cap reaches around 1.5v the green LED comes on to show me that I have reached what I want in the Cap (depending on the resistor I use for this).

I need to hook a simple circuit between the solar panel and super cap, so it will automatically charge the cap up to the limit I want (around 1.5v) then automatically switch off charging !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nul-points on June 01, 2011, 07:12:10 AM

Quote from: freepow on June 01, 2011, 03:47:23 AM
@ nul-points, Thanks very much !

The reason I am using actually a 4.0v solar panel outside feeding in to the house, I have to switch it on to charge the super cap.
The power from the solar panel go's through a Red charge indicator LED and onto the super cap, as soon as the super cap reaches around 1.5v the green LED comes on to show me that I have reached what I want in the Cap (depending on the resistor I use for this).

I need to hook a simple circuit between the solar panel and super cap, so it will automatically charge the cap up to the limit I want (around 1.5v) then automatically switch off charging !

hi freepow

nice idea!

now that high brightness LEDs (and sub-assemblies) are becoming more available at lower cost, i'm also thinking about possibilities of using a 'modest' solar panel to provide some LED indoor lighting

your 4V panel may just be a little on the low side for faster charging but the schematic above should still do what you asked - although you should move any inline 'indicator' LED and resistor to be in parallel now with the panel

you could leave the supercap in place and connect to your load when required, or disconnect (& move?) cap to connect to required load elsewhere. Its ok to leave the cap connected once it's reached charge, because the circuit will just keep it at the charged voltage

if you want some indication on this circuit, you could try connecting a Red (because its lower voltage than Green) LED (with same direction as D1) across R3 to see if you get some indication of charging - the brightness will decrease as the cap charges from empty to full (you might need to experiment with larger values for R3 tho' - maybe in the range 20-100 ohms?)

if this works, you could use your Green LED (with resistor) as the 'ON' indication in parallel across the panel o/p

let us know how you get on

all the best
np

http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com (http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on June 02, 2011, 08:52:29 PM

@ ALL

I have seen a schematic on a joulethief that was tricked into starting at a verylow voltage of .2 to .3 volts,
If anyone has seen this, can you direct me to this...

I think it was on overunity site, not sure...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 02, 2011, 10:52:07 PM

Quote from: freepow on June 02, 2011, 08:52:29 PM
@ ALL

I have seen a schematic on a joulethief that was tricked into starting at a verylow voltage of .2 to .3 volts,
If anyone has seen this, can you direct me to this...

I think it was on overunity site, not sure...

This is a circuit I posted a few years ago.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on June 02, 2011, 11:09:04 PM

Many thanks XEE2

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on June 05, 2011, 02:42:07 AM

Hello All...

I made a small joulethief that lights a LED quite ok at only 0.54v @ 0.14 mA.

Can someone tell me how to convert 1.5v down to say around .2 to .4v ??? a simple circuit please !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on June 05, 2011, 02:44:30 AM

Hello All...

I made a small joulethief that lights a LED quite ok at only 0.54v @ 0.14 mA.

If someone wants to make a joulethief with a battery (AA) @ 1.5v, what can you put the battery through to have only about .2 to .4v going to the circuit ?????? would you put the battery through a high resistor or something ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on June 05, 2011, 06:34:33 AM

Quote from: freepow on June 05, 2011, 02:44:30 AM
Hello All...

I made a small joulethief that lights a LED quite ok at only 0.54v @ 0.14 mA.

If someone wants to make a joulethief with a battery (AA) @ 1.5v, what can you put the battery through to have only about .2 to .4v going to the circuit ?????? would you put the battery through a high resistor or something ?

@ Free Pow
use a diode(s) in series with your supply. the junction drops 0.7v for silicon and less for schottky types. Better than using a resistor. Kind Regards merv

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on June 05, 2011, 08:46:38 AM

Thanks for replying.

Is it possible to say... Have a low voltage supply of only 0.2 volts and going through either a Capacitor charge pump to make 0.6v or to trick the transistor into starting at 0.2v ???? for a joulethief.

Any one done this... ????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on June 05, 2011, 09:18:56 AM

Quote from: freepow on June 05, 2011, 08:46:38 AM
Thanks for replying.

Is it possible to say... Have a low voltage supply of only 0.2 volts and going through either a Capacitor charge pump to make 0.6v or to trick the transistor into starting at 0.2v ???? for a joulethief.

Any one done this... ????

For the circuit I posted I actually used a large capacitor in place of the battery and then ran the circuit while monitoring the capacitor voltage as it went down. Note that the output has to be several volts to light an LED.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on June 05, 2011, 07:43:44 PM

Quote from: freepow on June 05, 2011, 02:42:07 AM
Hello All...

I made a small joulethief that lights a LED quite ok at only 0.54v @ 0.14 mA.

Can someone tell me how to convert 1.5v down to say around .2 to .4v ??? a simple circuit please !

A string of voltage dividers? Resistors, or maybe diodes? They're simple.

--Lee

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on June 08, 2011, 03:36:37 AM

Hello, Can someone help me with a very simple circuit...

This is what I want it to do... starting with a 4v solar panel then charging a small super cap up to about
1.5 ~ 2.0v with a red LED showing it charging, and when the super cap reaches the desired voltage 1.5 ~ 2.0
then the same red LED light will go out and no more charge will come through !

Is this possible ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nul-points on June 08, 2011, 05:06:45 AM

Quote from: freepow on June 08, 2011, 03:36:37 AM
Hello, Can someone help me with a very simple circuit...

This is what I want it to do... starting with a 4v solar panel then charging a small super cap up to about
1.5 ~ 2.0v with a red LED showing it charging, and when the super cap reaches the desired voltage 1.5 ~ 2.0
then the same red LED light will go out and no more charge will come through !

Is this possible ?

hi freepow

maybe you misunderstood my post above where i gave you a circuit to charge your supercap in this way?

the supercap stops charging when its voltage reaches the limit set by the zener (minus the default volt drops in the diode & transistor) - ie. it will charge to around 3.2 - 1.4 = 1.8V

the supercap voltage will not increase above this

(even tho' the sun may be shining, the circuit will just keep it at that voltage)

this is what you want, isn't it?

i also pointed out that you could try putting your red LED across the series 'surge protection' resistor to give some indication of charging - the LED would start brighter when the supercap is emptier and then the LED would dim & go out when charging had completed

i recommended experimenting with slightly higher values of series resistor if the LED is too dim whilst charging - you could also try connecting the LED across both the series resistor AND diode, if necessary
(LED polarity has to be same as polarity of series diode)

hope i've explained the operation better?

anyway, good luck with your solar energy project
np

http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com (http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 23, 2011, 08:01:09 PM

hi all im back just been thru a messy break up and no internet for awhile. but things look to be getting better thank god.

while i been away i been messing with batterys and run times.
what i cont seem to understand is i have some aa at 2500mah rechargable batterys.
by my maths 3 of these in series to get 3.6 volt should run a led with current draw at 25mah for about 100 hours but i dont seem to get anyware near that maybe 10 befor it starts to drop of in voltage.

now am i right in thinking to get the full 2500mah the battery would have to run down to 0volts to get the full rating
or am i missing something.

and i dont know how some of you have manage to have your jt run for years months or weeks i seem to be only able to manage a couple of days if that.
just a basic jt with 2n3904 1k resister and a 1doller goldmine toriod with 11 turns bifoler only gives me maybe a nights worth of like what am i doing wrong lol 42ma draw

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 24, 2011, 03:56:52 AM

Quote from: dasimpson on June 23, 2011, 08:01:09 PM
hi all im back just been thru a messy break up and no internet for awhile. but things look to be getting better thank god.

while i been away i been messing with batterys and run times.
what i cont seem to understand is i have some aa at 2500mah rechargable batterys.
by my maths 3 of these in series to get 3.6 volt should run a led with current draw at 25mah for about 100 hours but i dont seem to get anyware near that maybe 10 befor it starts to drop of in voltage.

now am i right in thinking to get the full 2500mah the battery would have to run down to 0volts to get the full rating
or am i missing something.

and i dont know how some of you have manage to have your jt run for years months or weeks i seem to be only able to manage a couple of days if that.
just a basic jt with 2n3904 1k resister and a 1doller goldmine toriod with 11 turns bifoler only gives me maybe a nights worth of like what am i doing wrong lol 42ma draw

Good to see you.

Check out Dr. Jones's topic on his possible 8x OU JT. XEE2 posted a circuit there that lights an led but draws less than 5 micro watts! Very little energy going in. 42 mA's is very high, I don't think my Fuji's putting out 400-500 volts draw that much. Try substituting a VR of 5k or 10k value and then you can tune for lowest possible draw vs having it light up. It helps to find the sweet spot. Plus, as the battery drains, you can retweak it as it drifts off resonance.

None of the circuits I have built draw anything near as low as Dr. Jones's or XEE2's. That is a whole new ball game over there. I hope to be able to replicate some of those circuits soon.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 24, 2011, 09:11:34 AM

i just tried some of the circuits with compnents i have and no luck i have very limited parts so try to stay true to the joule thief parts list.
you are corect the current draw is very high compares to what my other draw the yellow and white ones out of psu dont draw that much with the same number of windings

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 24, 2011, 01:25:49 PM

here is my latest joule thief found the toriod on a motherboard with 7 bifoler winds on allready so just used it.
had to use 5x5k resisters to make a 1k resister the current draw is 25 to 30 ma thay is also a 100uf cap on the battery terminals to help
putting a fresh battery on now and the voltage reading is 1.48v and the time is 18.24 on the 24/06/2011 lets see how long it lasts btw this is lighting a room 13x13 feet to a lvl that can be moved around in easy wish i knew away to test lumans here are a couple of pictures

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 24, 2011, 01:28:46 PM

just wonted to ask were can i buy the $1 goldmine toriods so i then know i am using exactly the same style rather then trying to guess

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 24, 2011, 08:25:19 PM

i just found these and thoght they be ideal easy to get and once we have the mods for them on here every one can have the units very easy instead of all the different boards we get
ah damn and blast it we have a $50.00 minimum order (plus shipping) to all Foreign Countries (except Canada).
no way id be spending that much mind you the supercaps have been calling me just need to save lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on June 24, 2011, 09:21:02 PM

my led draws 25ma from 3 aa batterys in series to get 3.6 volt at 2500mah.
what i would like to do is limit the max current that can be drawn from a single aa battery to 25ma.
so any jt i build wont be able to use more then that.
i tried to do the maths many times but i just end up lost.
what risistance would i need to put in series with the battery to limit the current to 25ma.
i am hopeing that i can build a jt that can light the single led the same as 3 batterys would with out haveing to keep worrying about the current it is drawing if i can do that then i can wire the batterysw in parallel for 7500mah and get 3 times the time out of the batterys but still have the same light output.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on July 11, 2011, 05:30:17 PM

ty for gerhard for making it possible for me to do this.the first unit works very well the second needs the cfl touching to make it work. i do have to other units but they are no good for this one recharges every time the flash is clicked and the other has 3 transistors on and hard to work out. but im happy with these.the second one seems to put out 120vac. i tested this by putting a diode infront of a cap then charging the cap then swapping the wire round both ways give a reading of 120v when ran into a neon both sides lit.the first one give me a about 300v also into my arm at one point lol.`heavy handed no shock the moment im been carefull zap a few choice words were said i can tell you the cfl is a 14watt one may try the 4 watt one i have about

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 16, 2011, 12:14:59 PM

for those who can not find a toroid:

no toroid Joule thief video >>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8XeS4dxAxE&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

also see >>>> http://www.youtube.com/user/Lidmotor#p/a/u/0/BCevexBP26M

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on July 16, 2011, 06:05:15 PM

Hi folks, Hi dasimpson, thanks for sharing all your recent experiments.
On the fuji, or whichever disposable camera that is, what kind of run time are you getting with it, thanks.
I'm making a somewhat different oscillator, with ferrite beads in solenoid configuration and 1 bifilar coil in center with 2 pickup coils on either side and another pickup coil wrapped around the center bifilar, already tested one side coil and seems to work pretty well.
peace love light
tyson

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on July 16, 2011, 07:26:14 PM

one unit is Fuji and another is Kodak. I have not done a longevity test yet as I use it as a bedside light so it is not on for long. it charges up during the day from a 2 volt solar panel . I will charge a 2500mah Ni-MH battery and let you know. I wont to move away from the cfl and use a mains led light as i feel it would give off more light. as to hand winding toriods my hands hurt to much after doing them so i stoped and try to find other ways and things to use instead. i find ac line filters from dead pc psu's work very well

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on July 17, 2011, 07:57:12 AM

Hi dasimpson, thanks for the reply. Yes that sounds like something I'll be doing as well, I have a few of those garden light solar panels I'm going to use and make a separate charger for placing outside with protection from rain should that occur.

I have some interesting experiment results I wish to share.
The other solenoid setup didn't work as good as I hoped, it seems the toroids are the still the winners.
Though I wrapped a 24 awg., 6 filar-non twisted, on a 1-1/8" diameter ferrite toroid and made 2 layers.

I then used 2 of the strands to make a typical joule thief oscillator, then I placed 7 white/bluish leds in series and placed strand 3 of 6 across the leds as a pickup coil and it lit the leds to maybe just over half of full brightness, this was drawing 120 milliamps with a 1.6 volt AA nickel zinc rechargeable.
Then I added the next strand in series with 4 of 6 and it lit the 7 leds even brighter and still the same 120 milliamps input.
Then I added strand 5 of 6 in series and the leds were now blinding to look at and probably just about full brightness using the same 120 milliamps input.
And finally, I added the strand 6 of 6 in series and the 7 leds were extremely bright and still 120 milliamps input.

This is the best performing joule thief I have ever made and it is so easy to wind multistrand coils like this. I think BruceTPU was working on something along these lines.
Also, I am using a TIP31 NPN.
I think folks should give this a try as it really seems to work well. Let me know what you folks think.
Here's a couple pics of the setup.

peace love light
tyson

edit: I rechecked the input amps using a 1 ohm resistor on input leg and it was 102 milliamps at 1.63 volts on loaded AA cell, instead of 120 milliamps.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on July 17, 2011, 10:53:52 AM

SkyW:
Thanks for sharing your results. I find that the TIP31 is the strongest transistor for getting the most light from the circuit, but it does so by draining the battery quite fast. Even if adjusting the pot, I still find it it's a hog, but does a great job if light is your main interest, and you give it a couple of AAs to work with.
I would recommend trying Koolers bwjt, as he lit 70 led, with only 27mA. the diagram that he used in on previous videos. For those that can or haven't figured out the wiring I place the picture of the small 5 month running replication, although I only get a few days out of it, with my set-up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgX1gYlmVsk&feature=related
That was his best and strongest circuit to date, but has not been replicated as far as I've seen. As I am still using mostly pc toroids I can't get anywhere close to the duration time or the mA draw. The toroids are very important, even though almost any coil and turn ration will work to some degree.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on July 17, 2011, 11:22:53 AM

Here is the picture of the small BwJt replication so anyone can clearly see how it is wired together. The bigger circuits are wired the same way, only he add an inductor, and runs some of the leds off of the negative side of the battery, as well and some off of the secondary of his coil.
The second picture is of one of my many Jtc that I'm in the process of converting to BwJt circuits to gain some duration time on the battery.
If people don't know it yet, you will not get the highest possible light from an led by connecting it to a joule thief, as each led does need the 25 mA or so, to output the same light intensity as when using 2 or 3 AAs, as the AA batteries have A LOT more current than most Jt circuits output. The TIP31 is probably the closest to give the highest light intensity, as two or three AAs do, as when connecting the AAs direct to the leds.
One exception is that in the video kooler gets 70 leds to light off of only 4 volt spikes that are read by his scope on the secondary coil output. This is using the same output as is recommended for only one led (27mA). So, there is some magic to his circuits... and using the secondary is part of the secret, but not all. "Special Diodes" also he said.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on July 17, 2011, 11:45:56 AM

Goldmine may still be out of the 5 for a buck ferrite one inch toroids.
This is what they are advertizing now. The deal may have been too good to be true:
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16460

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 17, 2011, 04:42:57 PM

Another no toroid Joule thief video (small coil) >>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7CFkRLrtss

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Light on July 17, 2011, 06:44:51 PM

for TRansistor's OScillation you do not need a core, just a resistance and some induction which can be provide by coils itself:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRM2x7QCxJo

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 17, 2011, 06:57:14 PM

Quote from: Light on July 17, 2011, 06:44:51 PM
for TRansistor's OScillation you do not need a core, just a resistance and some induction which can be provide by coils itself:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRM2x7QCxJo

and what was old is new again... ;)

if y'all look back about a thousand pages, this has been covered. ;)
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg143373#msg143373

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on July 17, 2011, 07:52:51 PM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on July 17, 2011, 06:57:14 PM
and what was old is new again... ;)

if y'all look back about a thousand pages, this has been covered. ;)
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg143373#msg143373

Yes. But it seems that some people are too lazy to look back through the old posts. So this may be new to them.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Light on July 17, 2011, 08:26:42 PM

why to look back, look frwd ;D
you even can build a brand new kind of motors on exactly the same principle of TRansistor OScillation well known from mid fifties of last century and known now under nick-names "joule thief", "kacher", "blocking generator" :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEn-3xOSSHg
:)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on July 17, 2011, 09:33:13 PM

Hi folks, thanks for all the replies, though I'm aware of all the past information, I just thought the multistrand observation was worthy of sharing.
And it does not matter if tom, dick or harry already discovered it, it still is interesting and easy to make the coils that way.
Hi nickZ, of course koolers 70 led setup drawing 27 milliamps is great, though if nobody can replicate that performance, whats the point.
Try out this multistrand setup if you wish and see if it has any benefits.
peace love light
tyson

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 17, 2011, 10:38:35 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 17, 2011, 07:52:51 PM
But it seems that some people are too lazy

indeed.

@skywatcher
your tip31 works well (and uses more power) because it is a 'darlington'.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 17, 2011, 11:40:33 PM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on July 17, 2011, 10:38:35 PM
indeed.

@skywatcher
your tip31 works well (and uses more power) because it is a 'darlington'.

Darlington means 2 transistors really....right?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 18, 2011, 12:49:01 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on July 17, 2011, 11:40:33 PM
Darlington means 2 transistors really....right?

Bill

correct. it gives higher current gain than each transistor alone. one can also use a pnp and a npn to form a 'complimentary' darlington pair. on the other hand, the base voltage req. will double as well, and they don't switch as fast.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on July 18, 2011, 02:23:53 AM

Skywatcher and All:
The TIP31 is a single transistor, not a pair, but it has a higher voltage rating than most, so it can handle the most juice without overheating and burning out. I don't understand the comparison with the darlington pair.
The point of replicating Koolers bwjt circuits is because it has been shown to work in all other devices that he has built. He states that he has built a hundred of them. What this probably means is that he has spent more time, and energy in developing this particular circuit, than all of us combined.
I don't have the right cores, and without them the 70 leds lighting on such low draw, or the 5 month running units can't be replicated. At least I have not been able to do so, using my more inferior iron powder cores, as well as some ferrite ones as well. That does not mean that others can't equal his outstanding results. The circuit is very simple, but there may be certain things like the 'special diodes' and such that make it unique. He's probably laughing at me trying to explain the benefits and disadvantages of his circuits. But I'm afraid that possibly something has happened to him, as he would have called home (here) by now.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 18, 2011, 05:12:11 AM

Quote from: NickZ on July 18, 2011, 02:23:53 AM
Skywatcher and All:
The TIP31 is a single transistor, not a pair, but it has a higher voltage rating than most, so it can handle the most juice without overheating and burning out. I don't understand the comparison with the darlington pair.

the tip31's i have are darlingtons albeit they are on a single die.
http://www.newark.com/fairchild-semiconductor/tip31/darlington-transistor-npn-40v-to/dp/58K2425

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on July 18, 2011, 07:12:15 AM

Hi folks, Hi willy, I picked up the tip31 from radiohut and the package does not say darlington nor does the website. I wonder if they are different or the same. Seem to have the same specs as the link you posted.
Otherwise, it is working pretty well for my setup, darlington or not.
Oh and i did try koolers circuit type and it is about the same.
peace love light
tyson

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: poynt99 on July 18, 2011, 08:49:39 AM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on July 18, 2011, 05:12:11 AM
the tip31's i have are darlingtons albeit they are on a single die.
http://www.newark.com/fairchild-semiconductor/tip31/darlington-transistor-npn-40v-to/dp/58K2425

Newark (now "element 14") screwed up on that page. If you scroll down you'll see a NTE196 substitute data sheet. It is not a Darlington transistor.
http://www.nteinc.com/specs/100to199/pdf/nte196.pdf

Here is the datasheet for the TIP31 series:
http://people.ece.cornell.edu/land/courses/ece4760/FinalProjects/s2007/aw259_bkr24/TIP31.pdf

.99

PS. Darlingtons in the TIP series start at TIP100.
http://www.futurlec.com/TransPowerTIP.shtml

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on July 18, 2011, 10:35:52 AM

POINT:
Thanks for clearing that up. MY TIP31 was bought at radio shack, but what you actually get is some other compatible transistor made who know where. Radio shack does not mention Darlington on the box, or on their add on it. This is their description of it:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062610

The one I have works great, but is a real hog on batteries.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 18, 2011, 03:23:31 PM

99:

Does that mean that my TIP3055's are Darlington pairs? I used one in my Jeanna's Light circuit replication and, thanks to minimum orders, I still have like 5 of them left.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on July 18, 2011, 03:36:52 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on July 18, 2011, 03:23:31 PM
99:

Does that mean that my TIP3055's are Darlington pairs? I used one in my Jeanna's Light circuit replication and, thanks to minimum orders, I still have like 5 of them left.

Bill

Hi Bill... no the 3055 is an standard NPN power device, the TIP 1xx devices are darlingtons (TIP131) being very common. Regards Merv

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on July 18, 2011, 04:31:07 PM

I bought a package of 15 2n3906 transistors from the Shack part number 276-1604, for super cheap. They were all different types and none were compatible with my Jtc. You get what you pay for.
Their TIP31 is also something else. So, of course the results using them will vary, as well as between the same transistors. I wish that they would stock some toroids for us though, even if they come from Guam.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: poynt99 on July 18, 2011, 04:47:31 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on July 18, 2011, 03:23:31 PM
99:

Does that mean that my TIP3055's are Darlington pairs? I used one in my Jeanna's Light circuit replication and, thanks to minimum orders, I still have like 5 of them left.

Bill

The TIP3055 appears to be TI's plastic version (larger TO-220 type) of the old workhorse the 2N3055, which is a TO-3 package. They are a single NPN power BJT.

.99

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on July 19, 2011, 12:17:31 AM

Quote from: poynt99 on July 18, 2011, 08:49:39 AM
Newark (now "element 14") screwed up on that page. If you scroll down you'll see a NTE196 substitute data sheet. It is not a Darlington transistor.
http://www.nteinc.com/specs/100to199/pdf/nte196.pdf

Here is the datasheet for the TIP31 series:
http://people.ece.cornell.edu/land/courses/ece4760/FinalProjects/s2007/aw259_bkr24/TIP31.pdf

.99

PS. Darlingtons in the TIP series start at TIP100.
http://www.futurlec.com/TransPowerTIP.shtml

thanks poynt. i started to wonder too after i posted that. checked a radioshack tip31 still in box and it says what nick said. my bad.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on July 20, 2011, 12:36:18 AM

@ Anyone who can tell me if this will work ??????

OK.. Just say I have 2x D cells rated at 1.2v @ 10,000mA each wired together equaling 2.4v @ 10A

OK.. Now Just say I have 5x separate Joulethiefs which each have say 10 LED's each and each Joulethief draws about 50 mA's each.

OK.. I connect all Joulethiefs up in parallel with the D battery,
so each Joulethief are drawing 2.4v @ 50mA each, So the whole 5x Joulethiefs are drawing a total of
2.4v and 250mA.

OK.. Question ! All 5x Joulethiefs should work properly from the D battery because each joulethief is getting the 2.4v each, and each joulethief is drawing 50mA each, So they all should work just as good as if I only had 1x Joulethief ?????????

And the "D" battery should be able to deliver the 2.4v to each Joulethief and deliver 50mA to each joulethief ??????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nul-points on July 20, 2011, 04:54:59 AM

Quote from: freepow on July 20, 2011, 12:36:18 AM
@ Anyone who can tell me if this will work ??????

OK.. Just say I have 2x D cells rated at 1.2v @ 10,000mA each wired together equaling 2.4v @ 10A

OK.. Now Just say I have 5x separate Joulethiefs which each have say 10 LED's each and each Joulethief draws about 50 mA's each.

OK.. I connect all Joulethiefs up in parallel with the D battery,
so each Joulethief are drawing 2.4v @ 50mA each, So the whole 5x Joulethiefs are drawing a total of
2.4v and 250mA.

OK.. Question ! All 5x Joulethiefs should work properly from the D battery because each joulethief is getting the 2.4v each, and each joulethief is drawing 50mA each, So they all should work just as good as if I only had 1x Joulethief ?????????

And the "D" battery should be able to deliver the 2.4v to each Joulethief and deliver 50mA to each joulethief ??????

hi freepow

yes, that will be fine

the D Cell battery ratings will be 10,000mAh not mA, meaning that they could deliver, eg. 1 mA for 10,000 hours or 1000 mA for 10 hours (approx.)

so if your 5x JTs need 2.4V @250mA total, and both D cells are fully charged, then theoretically you should get 10000/250 = 40 hours of continuous operation

since JT's can operate down to lower supply voltages and still have enough o/p voltage to light LEDs, you may find that you get more than 40 hours operation!

hope this helps
np

http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com (http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 20, 2011, 06:41:37 AM

Quote from: freepow on July 20, 2011, 12:36:18 AM
@ Anyone who can tell me if this will work ??? ???

OK.. Just say I have 2x D cells rated at 1.2v @ 10,000mA each wired together equaling 2.4v @ 10A

OK.. Now Just say I have 5x separate Joulethiefs which each have say 10 LED's each and each Joulethief draws about 50 mA's each.

OK.. I connect all Joulethiefs up in parallel with the D battery,
so each Joulethief are drawing 2.4v @ 50mA each, So the whole 5x Joulethiefs are drawing a total of
2.4v and 250mA.

OK.. Question ! All 5x Joulethiefs should work properly from the D battery because each joulethief is getting the 2.4v each, and each joulethief is drawing 50mA each, So they all should work just as good as if I only had 1x Joulethief ??? ??? ???

And the "D" battery should be able to deliver the 2.4v to each Joulethief and deliver 50mA to each joulethief ??? ???

Why do your JT circuits need 2.4 volts? You can brightly light over 100 leds on a 1.5 volts AA or a D if you want longer run time. And, if you only run 50 leds, it will run even longer.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 21, 2011, 09:57:37 PM

Electronics goldmine has boost caps on sale for $6.00!! These are 2,600 Farad.

http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G17960&utm_source=Goldmine+-+Alana&utm_campaign=7a8fea45e4-July21&utm_medium=email (http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G17960&utm_source=Goldmine+-+Alana&utm_campaign=7a8fea45e4-July21&utm_medium=email)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on July 23, 2011, 10:02:26 AM

@ All, Thanks for your help...

One Question ... Whats the correct or best voltage to charge 1x rechargeable 1.2v battery ??
or 2x 2.4v batterys ??
Using a Solar Cell ????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on July 23, 2011, 04:48:45 PM

from my notes
1.2v = 2-2.5v
2.4v = 3.5-4v
3.6v = 5-6v
6v = 7.5-9v
7.2 = 9.5-10.5
9v = 10.5-11.5v
12v = 13.2â€"14.4 V
in series you will always find one battery will fully discharge befor the other.
this is to do with internal resistance so it is very easy to kill one battery while the other stays charged.
this is what i have found from my solar garden light that is

another note is you dont wont to run the rechargable batterys below 1 volt discharge any further then that and they can be damaged

charge voltage might be slitly out but got them as close as i can
i tend to find the fully charged voltage reading then add a volt

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on July 24, 2011, 12:57:24 AM

Thanks for the Information !

I have some 0.5v @ 3.5 Amps solar panels, I want to connect them to make about 4.5 - 6v but at only an output of 1 Amp...

Can you actually bring down the Amps of the solar cell without dropping the volts to much,
what can I do ????????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on July 24, 2011, 09:16:52 AM

i was looking at some 0.5v 8amp cells my self
i was thinking of doing 10 in sereies for 5 volt 8amp for usb charging or 5 in series for 2.5 volt 1.2volt battery charging.
i was just going to lay them horizontel with a slit tilt for rain to run off on my wall so they would not be getting full sun this should bring the ampage down but also resisters inline should also drop it to were you wont it.
i think my self 5v at 8 amp be better i could then use 1.2volt battery charger or anything else that might work on usb

Quote from: freepow on July 24, 2011, 12:57:24 AM
Thanks for the Information !

I have some 0.5v @ 3.5 Amps solar panels, I want to connect them to make about 4.5 - 6v but at only an output of 1 Amp...

Can you actually bring down the Amps of the solar cell without dropping the volts to much,
what can I do ??? ??? ??

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on July 24, 2011, 09:38:36 AM

@ dasimpson

My cells put out about 3.5 Amps, however I want to reduce to 1 Amp, because I want to recharge a "D" battery rated at 10 Amps, so charging at 10% = 1 Amp per hour approx.

But what sort of resistors would I need to go from 3.5 A down to about 1 Amp ????
Do I have to have big resistors like 20 watts or something ??
Because I am going to have it at say 6v 1 Amp solar panel.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on July 24, 2011, 09:55:12 AM

i would say the higher wattage is best but you also have to remember it wont put out 3.5 amp for all the light hours so if you add resistance at 12 noon or there abouts were the panel is at full output when it tapers off later in the day it may nut put any current out at all because of the resistance

the other option if you can is to cut the panels down to 1 amp panels.
you would do this at 12 noon cover the panel in direct sunlight till you get a reading of 1 amp mark a line the cut them along that line each cell will only put out 1 amp this will also give you many more cells fo other projects

Quote from: freepow on July 24, 2011, 09:38:36 AM
@ dasimpson

My cells put out about 3.5 Amps, however I want to reduce to 1 Amp, because I want to recharge a "D" battery rated at 10 Amps, so charging at 10% = 1 Amp per hour approx.

But what sort of resistors would I need to go from 3.5 A down to about 1 Amp ??? ?
Do I have to have big resistors like 20 watts or something ??
Because I am going to have it at say 6v 1 Amp solar panel.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on July 24, 2011, 10:07:09 AM

Good idea about cutting them, I did not think of that, however I have a dremmell or small hobby electric drill, and I have a thin disc to cut through plastic etc.
Do you think I could cut those thin cells in a straight line or wont work ????
How would you cut them ??

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on July 24, 2011, 10:15:40 AM

i have a solar panel from an old garden light that has 8 peaces in series that produces 4 volts to charge 2 1.2volt batterys in series so cutting them down works yes i guess it is knowing how much to cut them down
it looks like they kep the solder joint in the middle and cut from each side.
i think the hard part will be getting them the right size
the dremal should work well i guess if you mount the dremal at the side of a peace of would you can run the panals along like a bench saw works you can get stright cuts every time

Quote from: freepow on July 24, 2011, 10:07:09 AM
Good idea about breaking them, I did not think of that, however I have a dremmell or small hobby electric drill, and I have a thin disc to cut through plastic etc.
Do you think I could cut those thin cells in a straight line or wont work ??? ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on July 24, 2011, 10:17:44 AM

i would start by cutting 1 cell into 3 leaveing the 2 tabbing area there fo joining the panels this should give you about 1.1 maybe 1.2 amp per panel with losses of the glass etc that should work out right
maybe a chaep table top tile saw
i just googles and found this hope it helps http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAscY5fFnNA

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 24, 2011, 11:45:08 AM

Hey, make it easier and just try taping over part of the cell using electrical tape. This way is not permanent and can be readily adjusted again and again.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on July 24, 2011, 11:46:25 AM

that a very good idea pirate i hadent thoght of that
i wish i was as lucky as you was with them nife batterys they would of been ideal

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on July 24, 2011, 12:00:42 PM

Now anyone can just order 60 leds with a solar panel and battery, that last 12 hours each night. $10 on ebay. I know I can't beat that by making it myself. It can also be modified to suit your needs. China does it again.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on July 24, 2011, 12:04:02 PM

they is always room for improvement you will find that after a week of running that unit off ebay in real world conditions aka england that it wont last very long

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 24, 2011, 12:07:55 PM

I agree but, 60 leds and a solar cell and probably some sort of charging circuit for $10.00 is a good starting point. We can make it better with what we know but we could not even buy the parts for that kind of money...especially at radio shack, ha ha.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on July 24, 2011, 12:14:29 PM

This video shows the cheapest way of building your own solar panel, by using the broken cells, that can be bought for much less cost, especially compared to buying an equivalent ready made panel. This is for guys like me, cheap and practical with some time to tinker.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VR4phYUiGQs&feature=grec_index

A lot of Jtc or leds can be light off of one of those panels. Enough to light your house, to a low light level, like I like.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on July 24, 2011, 12:15:30 PM

very true.
shops just have way to many overheads to cover why ebay will always be so cheap.
the unit on ebay looks like the solar panel might give out about 150 -250mah into a 1.2volt battery so we know they is a jt circuit in there someware.
but units like this or not made to last long so they make them cheap so we dont think twice about baying another set.
the bit id like to know is are the leds in parallel or in series.
from what we know on here just that little bit of info will ltell us how good the jt part is made and how the hole unit will perform

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on July 24, 2011, 12:19:42 PM

on ebay at the moment i can get 10 solar cells full ones not broken that put out 8 amp for 19.99gbp.
an old window and the tabbing wire 3 lots of the cells i have a 120watt panel for about a 100 pound bloody good id say

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on July 24, 2011, 12:26:02 PM

Looking at the add I see that shipping costs are $16, for the $10 60 led, solar light system. So, that is the catch. It really cost $27, that does make a difference, they are not giving it away, as thought. But shipping from China is not cheap.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on July 24, 2011, 12:33:22 PM

did you mean these NickZ http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/60-LED-10M-Solar-String-Fairy-Lights-Xmas-Outdoor-Party-/270774002553?pt=UK_Garden_Lighting&hash=item3f0b636379 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/60-LED-10M-Solar-String-Fairy-Lights-Xmas-Outdoor-Party-/270774002553?pt=UK_Garden_Lighting&hash=item3f0b636379)

Quote from: NickZ on July 24, 2011, 12:26:02 PM
Looking at the add I see that shipping costs are $16, for the $10 60 led, solar light system. So, that is the catch. It really cost $27, that does make a difference, they are not giving it away, as thought. But shipping from China is not cheap.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on July 24, 2011, 12:52:04 PM

The ones that I looked were a little different, and are the one advertized on the left side bar on this sight. Here is the link:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160614929505+&clk_rvr_id=245930330144
So, total cost for this 60 led system would be $27, including shipping, is where they get you. But, think how long it took someone to just solder the whole system together, they might get a buck for each finished unit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on July 24, 2011, 12:55:42 PM

looks like they are to compeating companys when they make all the parts it also cost lkess there but price of living in thors countrys is alot less then ares they dont need as high a pay still maybe slave labour or they is a hell of alot less tax then what we have to pay

Quote from: NickZ on July 24, 2011, 12:52:04 PM
The ones that I looked were a little different, and are the one advertized on the left side bar on this sight. Here is the link:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160614929505+&clk_rvr_id=245930330144 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160614929505+&clk_rvr_id=245930330144)
So, total cost for this 60 led system would be $27, including shipping, is where they get you. But, think how long it took someone to just solder the whole system together, they might get a buck for each finished unit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on July 24, 2011, 07:50:51 PM

And, I just saw this solar system including an AA for $35 with 150 led, and they last 8 hours. One a single AA.
Bill: What do you say?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350477985505+&clk_rvr_id=249977309602

I think they must be listening in on our forum, but they waist no time.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 24, 2011, 09:46:52 PM

Quote from: NickZ on July 24, 2011, 07:50:51 PM
And, I just saw this solar system including an AA for $35 with 150 led, and they last 8 hours. One a single AA.
Bill: What do you say?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350477985505+&clk_rvr_id=249977309602 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350477985505+&clk_rvr_id=249977309602)

I think they must be listening in on our forum, but they waist no time.

Wow, I think you are right, they are watching us over here, ha ha. They say it runs for 8 hours too but usually, those rechargable AA's that come with the solar lights, like the yard lights, are small capacity. I have replaced most of mine with 2900 mAh batts which really extends the lighting time. The same is probably possible with these as well. I wonder what their JT circuit looks like? These might be some small solid state device that we could use to light some lights of America led bulbs very brightly for a long time.

I wonder if their circuit is just a take-off of the Fuji?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on July 24, 2011, 11:28:29 PM

The main thing is although they're flimsy, but they'll work for a while. They are like disposable Solar Christmas Lights, but it's the idea, and efficiency that counts. I'll bet they only really get an hour or two at most, and not the 8 hours as stated, but that's a start. If they use a coil or not would be interesting to know. So, a few years behind us, but, there it is...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on August 02, 2011, 09:21:14 PM

this is probably in the wrong spot topic wise, but i put it here because here is where the do'ers are... in the past i have used the 'em noise soup' that surrounds us all to bias/power circuits. has anyone else here played with using one of these?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 03, 2011, 01:33:44 AM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on August 02, 2011, 09:21:14 PM
this is probably in the wrong spot topic wise, but i put it here because here is where the do'ers are... in the past i have used the 'em noise soup' that surrounds us all to bias/power circuits. has anyone else here played with using one of these?

Not me. But it looks interesting. What is it? I am looking at ambient energy receivers now (without any good results). Perhaps you could start a thread and post your results.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on August 03, 2011, 02:09:42 AM

Quote from: xee2 on August 03, 2011, 01:33:44 AM
Not me. But it looks interesting. What is it? I am looking at ambient energy receivers now (without any good results). Perhaps you could start a thread and post your results.

it's a cellphone booster antenna.
here is an example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=255vpnyBwH4

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheSchuss on August 08, 2011, 07:36:03 PM

Quote from: freepow on July 24, 2011, 12:57:24 AM
Thanks for the Information !

I have some 0.5v @ 3.5 Amps solar panels, I want to connect them to make about 4.5 - 6v but at only an output of 1 Amp...

Can you actually bring down the Amps of the solar cell without dropping the volts to much,
what can I do ????????

freepow,
You can reduce amps without dropping the voltage, use the proper size resistor.

At .5v per cell, hook them in series to achieve the desired output, 9 cells for 4.5v, 12 cells for 6v, in either case you'll maintain 3.5 amps.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheSchuss on August 08, 2011, 09:17:54 PM

Quote from: xee2 on July 17, 2011, 07:52:51 PM
Yes. But it seems that some people are too lazy to look back through the old posts. So this may be new to them.

Hi xee2,
Yep, some of us are very new; to this forum that is, like myself. I joined on Saturday 8/6, started reading the comments on page 1 of this thread; dated 11/20/2008 over the weekend and managed to make it up to page 25, dated 11/23/2008, about 625 post in all, back when you all were still messing with the Fuji Camera circuit.

BTW, did anyone ever figure out how to make that circuit work? Mine ran at 306 volts, 8 mA, it did light a 15W fluoro tube at about 1/5th brightness. Using Ohm's law, I figure if the amperage could be increased to about 50mA at 305 volts the fluoro tube would light just fine. Any suggestions? Do you know what Ohm's law is, or even how to apply it?

Excuse me for saying so but in your posts in pages 1-25 you came across more like a blind man with a dim light than someone with a bright idea and no one Criticized you! I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

Over the weekend though, I managed to replicate a couple of projects posted by members, do some experimenting on my own, take care of domestic chores and take care of some necessary shopping.

Tonight I started at page 1016 of this thread, dated 8/3/11 and am working backward through the posts.

I've built JTs with very small toroids that ran up to 10 - 3.5v, 25mA 50,000 mcd white LEDs at full brightness on depleted single cell 1.5v batteries(tested at .8 volts), built single cell 2 LED-2 transistor flashers, replicated FM mini transmitters, etched my own circuit boards, and built HHO generators, years before I found this forum.

I find you, and your buddy he'sinebriated(again) comment's especially Offensive because you're both supposed to be 5 Star "He-row" members. In that capacity I would think you would be willing to help and give direction not just throw out snide remarks about newbie posts or questions.

Fact of the matter is, you couldn't read over 25,000 posts on this board in a month to get caught up anymore than anyone else could so such criticism should be beneath you.

Please feel free to forward this to he'sanebriated(again), cause honestly, I just don't feel like sending it twice.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheSchuss on August 08, 2011, 09:30:18 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on July 17, 2011, 11:40:33 PM
Darlington means 2 transistors really....right?

Bill

Yes, it's two NPN transistors set up with the emitter of one transistor connected to the base of the next transistor.

This link will give you a decent picture of the Darlington: http://www.talkingelectronics.com/projects/TheTransistorAmplifier/TheTransistorAmplifier.html#THEDARLINGTON

The center image of fig. 71 is the Darlington, the left image in fig. 71 is two independent transistors in a Darlington configuration.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheSchuss on August 08, 2011, 09:39:05 PM

Quote from: the_big_m_in_ok on June 05, 2011, 07:43:44 PM
A string of voltage dividers? Resistors, or maybe diodes? They're simple.

--Lee

Voltage dividers or diodes would do the trick, Resistors only effect amps, not voltage.

Just out of curiosity, why would you want to do that?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TheSchuss on August 08, 2011, 11:05:16 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 24, 2011, 03:56:52 AM
Good to see you.

Check out Dr. Jones's topic on his possible 8x OU JT. XEE2 posted a circuit there that lights an led but draws less than 5 micro watts! Very little energy going in. 42 mA's is very high, I don't think my Fuji's putting out 400-500 volts draw that much. Try substituting a VR of 5k or 10k value and then you can tune for lowest possible draw vs having it light up. It helps to find the sweet spot. Plus, as the battery drains, you can retweak it as it drifts off resonance.

None of the circuits I have built draw anything near as low as Dr. Jones's or XEE2's. That is a whole new ball game over there. I hope to be able to replicate some of those circuits soon.

Bill

Bill,
Am a brand new member and learning to find my way around this forum and finding the various topics. Could you post a link to Dr. Jones' topic you mentioned, I'd really like to check it out. Thanks for the help.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on August 09, 2011, 12:50:02 AM

Quote from: TheSchuss on August 08, 2011, 09:17:54 PM
Yep, some of us are very new; to this forum that is, like myself. I joined on Saturday 8/6, started reading the comments on page 1 of this thread; dated 11/20/2008 over the weekend and managed to make it up to page 25, dated 11/23/2008, about 625 post in all, back when you all were still messing with the Fuji Camera circuit.

welcome to the forum.

Quote from: TheSchuss on August 08, 2011, 09:17:54 PM
BTW, did anyone ever figure out how to make that circuit work? Mine ran at 306 volts, 8 mA, it did light a 15W fluoro tube at about 1/5th brightness. Using Ohm's law, I figure if the amperage could be increased to about 50mA at 305 volts the fluoro tube would light just fine. Any suggestions? Do you know what Ohm's law is, or even how to apply it?

btw, about the circuit you are asking if anybody got to work. lots of people got it to work, yourself included. because that's what 'working' is for that circuit. simply because it doesn't light the tube to full brightness doesn't mean it isn't working. the circuit cannot light the tube to full brightness... nor was it ever meant to. you keep on learning about ohm and such and you will eventually learn this too. and speaking of ohm's law, how do you plan on increasing the amperage? knowing how it works and all... ;)

Quote from: TheSchuss on August 08, 2011, 09:17:54 PM
Excuse me for saying so but in your posts in pages 1-25 you came across more like a blind man with a dim light than someone with a bright idea and no one Criticized you! I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

you are the one coming across as a dim light here schuss... even with you knowing how ohm's law works and all. ::)

Quote from: TheSchuss on August 08, 2011, 09:17:54 PM
I find you, and your buddy he'sinebriated(again) comment's especially Offensive because you're both supposed to be 5 Star "He-row" members. In that capacity I would think you would be willing to help and give direction not just throw out snide remarks about newbie posts or questions.

Fact of the matter is, you couldn't read over 25,000 posts on this board in a month to get caught up anymore than anyone else could so such criticism should be beneath you.

Please feel free to forward this to he'sanebriated(again), cause honestly, I just don't feel like sending it twice.

which specific comment of mine did you think was 'snide' and/or offensive? the one about it being done before? LOL, how would you suggest i tell him it had been done before?

you don't know me son... and the fact of the matter is, i could read a couple hundred pages of this (or any other thread) in an evening... and if i had a whole weekend, i could read this entire thread more than once. just because you are slow, don't put that on everyone else.

it's wilby... as in 'will be'... that's future tense, not past... not present... ::)
now if you will excuse me, i have to add someone (you) to my ignore list.

here's a link to dr. jones' topic: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10773
there is only 50 pages (700+ posts) so it should only take you a little more than a weekend to get caught up there versus the 70+ days (at your current reading/comprehension rate/level) it is going to take you to get caught up here... ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 09, 2011, 02:38:02 AM

Quote from: TheSchuss on August 08, 2011, 09:17:54 PM
Yep, some of us are very new

You may want to look at Joule thief 101 thread > http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8341.0

It was started to help new comers get basics without reading all the posts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on August 09, 2011, 06:35:44 PM

Hi everyone !

I wanted to show this before i forget to share ...

Its been sitting there for quite some time so there you go .

This is my version of the Ns coil ,with increased surface contact .

Also the secondary coil can be wound directly to the core . It is at the same time a pancake coil 14 inches gave 13 mili amp , i wounder what 14 foot would do .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMwLIwoAKq8

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on August 09, 2011, 11:47:58 PM

Quote from: Mk1 on August 09, 2011, 06:35:44 PM
Hi everyone !

I wanted to show this before i forget to share ...

Its been sitting there for quite some time so there you go .

This is my version of the Ns coil ,with increased surface contact .

Also the secondary coil can be wound directly to the core . It is at the same time a pancake coil 14 inches gave 13 mili amp , i wounder what 14 foot would do .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMwLIwoAKq8

awesome..
one of the cooler things i seen in along time..
you do interesting research..
i have also wonder how a battery would perform if wound like a cap..
please keep going. is that really 13 ma's and not 130 ua's..
if so.. very well done..

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on August 09, 2011, 11:55:54 PM

Quote from: kooler on August 09, 2011, 11:47:58 PM

awesome..
one of the cooler things i seen in along time..
you do interesting research..
i have also wonder how a battery would perform if wound like a cap..
please keep going. is that really 13 ma's and not 130 ua's..
if so.. very well done..

robbie

Thank , its been sitting there for over a year now , i do not have enough resources to complete , and i would need better material .

No micro , 0.013 amp .

Mark

Btw i will release other idea i have been sitting on for a while .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: wings on August 10, 2011, 06:32:47 AM

Quote from: Mk1 on August 09, 2011, 11:55:54 PM

Thank , its been sitting there for over a year now , i do not have enough resources to complete , and i would need better material .

No micro , 0.013 amp .

Mark

Btw i will release other idea i have been sitting on for a while .

Single Wire Conduction - 06/08/01 courtesy Milan Manchich:

http://www.keelynet.com/energy/milan.htm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on August 10, 2011, 10:41:08 PM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on August 02, 2011, 09:21:14 PM
this is probably in the wrong spot topic wise, but i put it here because here is where the do'ers are... in the past i have used the 'em noise soup' that surrounds us all to bias/power circuits. has anyone else here played with using one of these?

i have used one nearly the same as the pic i posted..
(to steal very good signals)
take a plastic ball the same size of a softball and get some copper tape and cut it 1/16 inch and pin stripe it from one end to the other..
now that gets a good signal.. about 600 micro amps worth

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on August 10, 2011, 10:43:52 PM

oh i meant to ask you guys if you know where i can buy some transistors that would handle 2200 volts and higher..
please let me know..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on August 11, 2011, 05:37:40 AM

Quote from: kooler on August 10, 2011, 10:41:08 PM
i have used one nearly the same as the pic i posted..
(to steal very good signals)
take a plastic ball the same size of a softball and get some copper tape and cut it 1/16 inch and pin stripe it from one end to the other..
now that gets a good signal.. about 600 micro amps worth

thanks for the reply kooler. looks like a texas instruments rfid tag? have you tried 'ganging' them for more output?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 11, 2011, 06:11:59 AM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on August 11, 2011, 05:37:40 AM
thanks for the reply kooler. looks like a texas instruments rfid tag? have you tried 'ganging' them for more output?

Can these be put in series and/or parallel? what if one used like 100 of them?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on August 11, 2011, 06:49:04 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on August 11, 2011, 06:11:59 AM
Can these be put in series and/or parallel? what if one used like 100 of them?

Bill

i believe so. that's what i am working on bill.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 11, 2011, 01:40:51 PM

Joule thief circuit that should light an LED for over 7 years with only one AA battery >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2SwZvE41Ok

NOTE: This is not new, many circuits able to do this have been posted. This circuit seems to give a good trade off between LED brightness and battery life.

EDIT: with 200K resistor, current is 0.61 mA and LED looks full bright (20,000/.61/24/365=3.7 years with D cell)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on August 12, 2011, 11:20:36 PM

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on August 11, 2011, 05:37:40 AM
thanks for the reply kooler. looks like a texas instruments rfid tag? have you tried 'ganging' them for more output?

sorry i didn't get back sooner..
but mine took 22 hours to make.. it was made on the protective screen of a 46'' lcd tv.. this is my biggest one..
i almost cried when it was destroyed.. dumb me taped it to my steel roof to get a really good signal..
well lets just say the wind blows alot here..
i had a friend that thought the thing in one of the pictures of tesla sitting with the spiral coil device behind him..
he always said it was a signal receiver of some kind.. i don't know what it was .. but i wish i could still talk to my buddy about tesla stuff.. .. ..
but NO i have not ganged them together.. i quit working on them after my big one got ripped..
but i will say .. if you are going to build one. spacing between your copper lines is got to be perfect less space is more current and more space is more volts..(kind of ) using a earth ground helps alot too..

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on August 13, 2011, 10:37:05 AM

nothing new but trying to get back at it..
just fun stuff.. it has more volts than that but that is what my meter showed thru a 1 uf microwave cap..
i need some bigger transistors.. so i don't have to ganged them up..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 13, 2011, 04:46:16 PM

Quote from: kooler on August 13, 2011, 10:37:05 AM
it has more volts than that but that is what my meter showed

Very nice circuit. I also think that it takes more than 1200 volts to light xenon tube. But a meter on AC is trying to read RMS voltage and most meters assume input is sine wave, which it is not in this case, so it will read low. It is easy to make a voltage divider with two resistors between 100K and 1M. But, I am sure you already know that.

Where did you get the C5855 transistors?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on August 13, 2011, 10:53:22 PM

xee2
how are u ..
i got the transistor out of a crt monitor.. every crt has a big transistor in it and there all 1200 - 1700 volt range.. they will pulse that much volts but they wont hold that much as far as bemf..
but if you need some good hv transistors goldmine has some 1500 volt they are s2055 ..
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G4269 (http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G4269)

alot of these hv transistor also work at 1.2 volts..
i think i am going to buy a bunch. because a device i been working on has 6 13007 transistors paralleled to handle the voltage its pulsing.. cause when you pulse 400-500 volts it makes alot of bemf..

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on August 16, 2011, 04:06:43 AM

Hello Everyone !!!

I have a Solar Panel which will go through a red LED then with a transistor and Zener diode, which will then charge my SuperCap.

Example if I set the charge voltage to 2.0 volts then as soon as the cap reaches near 2.0v then the current will drop to zero, so then no more charge will go into Cap,

But if I use 2x D batterys rated at 2.4v, how much charge voltage do I set the circuit to ????

If I need say 3.5~4v to fully charge the 2x D cells to 2.4v, the problem is the circuit wont stop the current charge untill the batterys reach 3.5~4v ????

How Do I get around this ??????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: dasimpson on August 16, 2011, 08:15:09 AM

as long as the panel dosent have a current rateing over 1c of the battery it wont overcharge
so say you have 2500mah battery the max current you wont the panel to give is 250maanything under is trickle charge

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 17, 2011, 04:36:07 AM

8 year blinking Joule thief > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-l7L_u45edE

Note - a blinking LED is brighter than an always on LED when both use the same average power.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on August 18, 2011, 12:25:34 AM

xee2
8 years.. awesome work..
this new core i got i can get it down to 5 ua.. without blinking a white led and is brighter than the ferrite core but any circuit below 5ua it just cuts off ..
you got any idea why.. is it cause the wires are a few mm away from the core..

does the pm's still work on this forum anymore..??

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 18, 2011, 01:31:04 AM

Quote from: kooler on August 18, 2011, 12:25:34 AM
xee2
8 years.. awesome work..
this new core i got i can get it down to 5 ua.. without blinking a white led and is brighter than the ferrite core but any circuit below 5ua it just cuts off ..
you got any idea why.. is it cause the wires are a few mm away from the core..

does the pm's still work on this forum anymore..??

robbie

Well, you are better at tweaking than me. But my first guess is that more turns are needed on the base coil. If there are not enough turns then the reverse current will not be large enough to cancel the current turning on the base when the collector current is low (induced base coil current is function of collector current). There may also be too many turns on the collector coil - if the inductance is too high the collector current will not increase fast enough to generate sufficient current in the base coil (transformer coupling is a function of the rate of change of the current). Try using same number of turns for base and collector coils and use less turns for both so that collector inductance is not as high. If that works I am sure you can tweak it to get more collector coil inductance in order to get a higher output voltage. Good luck (good luck always helps).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 18, 2011, 11:13:47 PM

Blinking Joule thief - some theory stuff >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQinhM1CxkM

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on August 28, 2011, 11:16:32 AM

Hi everyone, need some help !!!

See attached picture first then read on...

Each Joulethief drawing say about 150 mA each, and I want to put one (Green LED) in the circuit to light up only when I switch one or more Joulethiefs on, in the circuit.

I cant put a green straight on the positive line because when I switch more than 1x Joulethief on, the current draw will be 150 mA for each Joulethief, for example... If I switch on 4x Joulethiefs it will be drawing 4x 150mA = 600 mA's going through the green LED.

So does anyone have a clue where I can add the Green LED ??????
I want to use the green LED to come on with a load, but I dont want a green LED on each seperate Joulethief !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 28, 2011, 11:33:06 AM

Quote from: freepow on August 28, 2011, 11:16:32 AM
Hi everyone, need some help !!!

See attached picture first then read on...

Each Joulethief drawing say about 150 mA each, and I want to put one (Green LED) in the circuit to light up only when I switch one or more Joulethiefs on, in the circuit.

I cant put a green straight on the positive line because when I switch more than 1x Joulethief on, the current draw will be 150 mA for each Joulethief, for example... If I switch on 4x Joulethiefs it will be drawing 4x 150mA = 600 mA's going through the green LED.

So does anyone have a clue where I can add the Green LED ??????
I want to use the green LED to come on with a load, but I dont want a green LED on each seperate Joulethief !

This may not be correct so see what the others say, but I think you could place it just after your switch from the 2.5 v source, then, when ever either of the jt circuits are on, there will be a draw from the source and the 2.5 volts should light up the green led just fine.

Again, this may not be correct.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Flux4Energizer on August 28, 2011, 12:17:34 PM

Quote from: freepow on August 28, 2011, 11:16:32 AM
Hi everyone, need some help !!!

See attached picture first then read on...

Each Joulethief drawing say about 150 mA each, and I want to put one (Green LED) in the circuit to light up only when I switch one or more Joulethiefs on, in the circuit.

I cant put a green straight on the positive line because when I switch more than 1x Joulethief on, the current draw will be 150 mA for each Joulethief, for example... If I switch on 4x Joulethiefs it will be drawing 4x 150mA = 600 mA's going through the green LED.

So does anyone have a clue where I can add the Green LED ??????
I want to use the green LED to come on with a load, but I dont want a green LED on each seperate Joulethief !

Why don't you take the green led, a npn transistor and a resistor.
Put the resistor on the base of the transistor and the other side of the resistor you connect to the on/off switches (on the switched side of course).
Now put the led on the positive rail and the negative on the collector of the transistor. Now connect the emitter to the negative rail.
If you connect every switch in parallel to the resistor which is connected to the base of the transistor the green led turns on if one JT (or an other circuit in that case) is activated and stays on if there are two or more. It doesn't matter which JT is turned on every time the green led will turn on and stays on till all JT's are turned off.

Sorry i can't draw you a scematic because i'm posting from my phone right now but i hope this helps.

Regards,

Flux4Energizer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Flux4Energizer on August 28, 2011, 02:07:15 PM

@Freepow,

I just remember that i recently made a video where i use the same method to trigger a ssr.
In the video i also taped the circuit diagram, i even zoomed in on the part you're asking for because i made a little mistake there but that is explained also (i put the npn transistor between the positive and the circuit instead of the circuit and the negative).

Hope this helps, here's the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozLt_JXDz7g

Regards,

Flux4Energizer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on August 29, 2011, 08:41:45 AM

Quote from: kooler on August 18, 2011, 12:25:34 AM

this new core i got i can get it down to 5 ua.. without blinking a white led and is brighter than the ferrite core but any circuit below 5ua it just cuts off ..
you got any idea why.. is it cause the wires are a few mm away from the core..

1.5 uA Joule thief using nanocrystalline core >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfMj4B7c0Ww

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 29, 2011, 09:43:20 AM

Quote from: xee2 on August 29, 2011, 08:41:45 AM
1.5 uA Joule thief using nanocrystalline core >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfMj4B7c0Ww

Xee2:

Nice job! I just looked up those nanocrystalline toroids and they have very interesting specs. I had no idea that we could find material with a permeability that high. I thought we were doing well with 10,000, ha ha. I learn something new every day.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on August 29, 2011, 09:46:45 AM

@ ALL, thanks for your help, but I need someone to give me a simple diagram of a LED that will light when there is a LOAD, however, there will be more than one LOAD and each LOAD is seperate and has a on/off switch.
each LOAD is powered by the same 2.5v
See my diagram...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 29, 2011, 10:09:35 AM

Quote from: freepow on August 29, 2011, 09:46:45 AM
@ ALL, thanks for your help, but I need someone to give me a simple diagram of a LED that will light when there is a LOAD, however, there will be more than one LOAD and each LOAD is seperate and has a on/off switch.
each LOAD is powered by the same 2.5v
See my diagram...

Maybe I am missing something basic here but I don't see why this would not work? The led should light if either one or both of the JT's are operating. Resistor value would need to be zeroed in on by experimentation.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on August 30, 2011, 06:42:45 AM

@ Bill, Thanks for diagram, I've tried what you said, the LED light up when JT turned on but JT does'nt work,
so there must be another way...
any idea's ???

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on September 01, 2011, 05:54:00 PM

Hi Freepow... this circuit should do what you're looking for. The two unmarked rectangles represent your switched JT circuit blocks. D1, D2 provide circuit isolation between JT's. Current load through LED approx 20Ma. 22ohm resistor can be increased or decreased to suit trial. Kind Regards

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on September 02, 2011, 03:26:14 AM

@ Crowclaw, Thanks a lot !!!

Please have a look at this picture, The LED will turn on when the 2.5v Solar panel is on, But I want to put a Red LED in circuit for when A or B (battery) is turned on, however I dont want the Red LED to come on if the battery switch is in the off position and the Solar panel is on ! only if I switch A or B is on !

Any idea's please.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on September 02, 2011, 03:40:41 PM

Hi Freepow... Well pushing the old grey matter now!! lol... ok try this circuit, you will have to duplicate it for battery "B" and use two red leds for each battery circuit. You could use just one red LED but would have to be powered off battery "A" rather than off it's own battery "B" when selected!! The red LED should draw approx 11mA with the 22R resistor. Any NPN small high gain signal transistor can be used. I've selected component values to minimise base currents etc but you can experiment with values yourself based on my design. This circuit should give you what you are looking for. Regards

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on September 02, 2011, 03:46:46 PM

@ Freepow... I think I have the jist of what your are doing here so should be ok with my design... based on the principle of detecting a switch sequence, so should adapt to what you require...forgot to mention. SW1 in my diagram is your "A" switch of course. Regards

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on September 04, 2011, 08:10:00 AM

@ Crowclaw, I am not sure where to connect your circuit on to mine, please open my attachment diagram and have a look, thanks.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on September 04, 2011, 08:50:08 AM

@ All, Just say I have a Television rated at about 70 Watts at 240 VAC (Australia), would that equal about a current draw of approx 0.3 Amp/hour ??????

If so, why cant we use a powerful JT with an output of 0.3 Amp with high voltage to power the TV ????
would it work ????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on September 04, 2011, 03:11:18 PM

Hi Freepow ...You have two batterires "A" & "B" you need to build two monitoring circuits. I've drawn only one, connection V1 on my drawing is point "A" on your drawing. Next build an identical circuit and V1 then becomes "B" on your drawing of course...so when either A or B is in the off position then the RED LED's are both off. Next connect point JT1 on my drawing to your first JT's power input connection after the switch (and the same for your second JT) so when either of your JT's are switched on the RED LED's are also on! If you only want to use just one RED LED then replace one of them and with a collector load resistor of say 10k and connect both connectors together.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on September 04, 2011, 03:50:09 PM

Quote from: freepow on September 04, 2011, 08:50:08 AM
@ All, Just say I have a Television rated at about 70 Watts at 240 VAC (Australia), would that equal about a current draw of approx 0.3 Amp/hour ??????

If so, why cant we use a powerful JT with an output of 0.3 Amp with high voltage to power the TV ????
would it work ????
[/quote Your Household supply is a very stable AC voltage with a line frequency of 50Hz / 60 Hz at 240v... your appliances are designed to match these requirements. JT circuits using ferrite cores however produce a self oscillating high frequency pulsed DC output at relatively low current. An AC inverter however can provide the necessary requirements from a 12v/24v DC supply but demand a higher operating current. You can build a simple inverter with a transformer and a few additional components to work from a 12 volt battery but again although the input voltage is only 12v the current demand is high at several amps. Regards

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on September 05, 2011, 02:48:29 AM

Joule thief powered by LEDs used as solar cells >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STTenDq4_ws

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: rensseak on September 05, 2011, 04:20:32 AM

Quote from: xee2 on September 05, 2011, 02:48:29 AM
Joule thief powered by LEDs used as solar cells >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STTenDq4_ws

Did you try also to focus the sun light beam with a lens?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on September 05, 2011, 09:18:57 AM

Quote from: rensseak on September 05, 2011, 04:20:32 AM
Did you try also to focus the sun light beam with a lens?

No. This was just to see if it would work. It takes several minutes to start when placed in sunlight since the large 10,000 uF capacitor needs to charge up to at least 0.5 volts before Joule thief starts working. But then it will run as long as the LEDs are in direct sunlight. Would probably be better to use a smaller value capacitor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on September 05, 2011, 09:30:57 AM

@ anyone, I did an experiment lighting a LED with used AA batterys, look at attached file called "current"

You probably know this anyhow, but I measured exactly 0.173 mA coming out of the LED,
and exactly 0.173 mA going into the LED, so I ask you... how much current is used up in doing the work of lighting the LED ????
The answer therefore should really be none !!!
The battery would get run down even If the LED was to be left out of the circuit, so why could'nt we after lighting that LED then use that 0.173 mA to go directly into a charge battery at the same time ????

Am I making sense or not ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on September 05, 2011, 03:20:34 PM

Quote from: freepow on September 05, 2011, 09:30:57 AM
@ anyone, I did an experiment lighting a LED with used AA batterys, look at attached file called "current"

You probably know this anyhow, but I measured exactly 0.173 mA coming out of the LED,
and exactly 0.173 mA going into the LED, so I ask you... how much current is used up in doing the work of lighting the LED ????
The answer therefore should really be none !!!
The battery would get run down even If the LED was to be left out of the circuit, so why could'nt we after lighting that LED then use that 0.173 mA to go directly into a charge battery at the same time ????

Am I making sense or not ?

Current is the same everywhere in loop between positive and negative battery terminals. Look up Kirchhoff law.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on September 05, 2011, 03:40:53 PM

Hi folks, Hi freepow, that's essentially what I'm testing now with a circuit that nilrehob posted over at 'EF'.
I've been testing the circuit for a few days now and it is working very well at replenishing what is depleted from the input batteries.
I'm using AA NiMh cells and led off coil flyback back to parallel AA charge batteries, though with this low voltage input for this circuit I have to short out emitter and collector to jump start the oscillations in circuit.
Here is a link to that thread and a pic of circuit.
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/3759-bedini-solid-state-oscillator-tesla-switch-combination-2.html#post154767 (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/3759-bedini-solid-state-oscillator-tesla-switch-combination-2.html#post154767)
peace love light
tyson :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Flux4Energizer on September 05, 2011, 04:23:32 PM

Quote from: crowclaw on September 01, 2011, 05:54:00 PM
Hi Freepow... this circuit should do what you're looking for. The two unmarked rectangles represent your switched JT circuit blocks. D1, D2 provide circuit isolation between JT's. Current load through LED approx 20Ma. 22ohm resistor can be increased or decreased to suit trial. Kind Regards

Looks like the circuit i described a few posts back (except for the diodes) ;). Should work fine.

Regards,

Flux4Energizer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on September 06, 2011, 07:12:58 AM

@ SKYWATCHER123 from freepow.

Great circuit, what is L1 & L2 ?? how many turns & what are they wrapped on ??

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on September 06, 2011, 05:32:14 PM

Hi freepow, I'm using a bifilar coil I had from my bedini radiant charger, it has 18 gauge wire and around .6 ohms per coil strand and I have a large ferrite rod taken from audio crossover networks.
Though just about any bifilar oscillator should work, though you will probably have to briefly short circuit the emitter and collector of the transistor to jump start the oscillations at lower input voltages.
Still running the circuit and it is still replenishing the parallel AA charge batteries very well.

Took a new picture, this is my circuit as it is now.
peace love light
tyson

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on September 08, 2011, 10:19:43 AM

Joule thief toroid alternative >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Z04MmiS06E

Title: Re: Xee2 Toroid Idea
Post by: Bob Smith on September 10, 2011, 10:28:52 AM

Hi Xee,
Thanks for the tip.
Bob

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Hope on September 10, 2011, 11:23:57 AM

Quote from: dasimpson on July 24, 2011, 09:16:52 AM
i was looking at some 0.5v 8amp cells my self
i was thinking of doing 10 in sereies for 5 volt 8amp for usb charging or 5 in series for 2.5 volt 1.2volt battery charging.
i was just going to lay them horizontel with a slit tilt for rain to run off on my wall so they would not be getting full sun this should bring the ampage down but also resisters inline should also drop it to were you wont it.
i think my self 5v at 8 amp be better i could then use 1.2volt battery charger or anything else that might work on usb

You can do it with a simple series of light blubs (flashlight type should work).
It will form a current limiting circuit and voltage drops. Just pick your output spot. Three or four blubs will do.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on September 13, 2011, 09:56:25 PM

hello

i found 332 volts on the base of the transistor that can be used ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: LeaningGreen on September 14, 2011, 11:41:30 AM

@ Xee, pretty interesting. One would think since these are meant to suppress they wouldn't work well. They may actually be high perm to catch stray unwanted signals. Some E cores have a thin spacer between halves on the connecting faces that must be kept there or they won't work. One might try to wind the jt on just one 1/2 of the suppressor or E core and on the other side of the same E (past center) of same 1/2 an output wind. Think of winding the 1/2 E like this looking at the E: Pri & sec on the bottom and output wind on the top of this E. Only use 1/2 an E core. Hope that makes sense. The same would be for the suppressor core. Wind what you did and on the other 1/2 wind the output and then snap it closed. If it worked, its much easier than winding a toroid!

@Kooler, In the pic I've went back a few pages and I cant figure the values of all the parts in your pic. It's very interesting. I assume that's a 110 to 24v wall pack transformer. You show the voltage on the cap, but not the cap value and the same for the part going to the xenon tube. Does it light the xenon continuously? I checked youtube and can't find it there either.

Thanks to all for your work & posts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: LeaningGreen on September 14, 2011, 12:05:21 PM

Also, cutting the line suppressor in 1/2 making 2 that will snap shut may work well in some circumstances. The smaller mass supports higher frequencies for a faster charge & discharge rate. It may lower the output current capability though.

Just a thought.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on September 15, 2011, 11:14:33 PM

Quote from: LeaningGreen on September 14, 2011, 11:41:30 AM
@Kooler, In the pic I've went back a few pages and I cant figure the values of all the parts in your pic. It's very interesting. I assume that's a 110 to 24v wall pack transformer. You show the voltage on the cap, but not the cap value and the same for the part going to the xenon tube. Does it light the xenon continuously? I checked youtube and can't find it there either.

Thanks to all for your work & posts.

the cap on the base side is a cap out of a microwave it is 1uf 2400volt the diode to it is a old 1n4007..
the diode before the xenon bulb is a 12000v out of the microwave and the bulb is continuously flowing..
i got alot of videos to make but i have been in alot of pain lately so i have not been able to get down to my cellar..
but i will soon .. i got about 8-10 videos i need to make..
i'll post here as soon as i make it..

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: LeaningGreen on September 16, 2011, 12:09:10 AM

@Kooler,
Thank you very much for the reply and information.
Sorry to hear you are in such pain. I hope you feel better soon.

LG

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: freepow on September 18, 2011, 06:55:32 AM

HI EVERYONE...

Please look at attached diagram picture...

I want to use this circuit exactly as it is except without the reed switch, could I use a Joulethief instead of the reed switch so I can still pulse the circuit ????

If yes, then where would I connect a simple circuit to ????

Does anyone know ????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 01, 2011, 03:31:05 PM

A fellow just pm'd me with this link to a very in-depth book on electrical engineering:

http://www.archive.org/stream/theoreticalandp02blisgoog/theoreticalandp02blisgoog_djvu.txt

A lot of info there.

Bill

Thank you to Midknightoysters.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: LeaningGreen on October 01, 2011, 04:47:23 PM

Thanks for posting Bill and to Midknightoysters for the pm to you.

That book can be viewed online with the pictures which are missing from the test version.
http://books.google.com/books?id=ny4KAAAAIAAJ&oe=UTF-8

On Jt's, I've found that when using the fuji transformer, changing the transistor and using a variable base bias resistor, they seem to have a limit.
It seems virtually impossible to fully light a cfl to full or greater than normal(dialing it back to normal) with the fuji transformer. The transformer seems to have a great wind ratio, but is current/voltage limited on the output. It works well with LED's. My suspicion is the transformers core mass is just to small for cfl's. The small core mass allows a higher frequency but at the same time puts a limiter on the output. Larger wire could help, but will it fit on that form at that ratio? Probably not.
So, this has dedicated my fujis to LED work.
Pirate88179 (Bill) has shown in many vids the LED capability.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Neuromacer on October 03, 2011, 02:31:40 PM

Does anyone know what happened to Watson's blog?
I tried to access the site this morning and it doesn't exist anymore. Any information??

watsonseblog.blogspot.com/

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 03, 2011, 09:48:13 PM

@ Leaninggreen:

Thank you for posting the new link with the photos and also, thank you for your kind words.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: LeaningGreen on October 11, 2011, 06:22:23 PM

For those of you that use the fuji or kodak type circuit Goldmine has them on sale for $0.49 ea!
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G17610&utm_source=Goldmine&utm_campaign=fe7d19f680-Sept10&utm_medium=email

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on October 14, 2011, 11:50:39 PM

i know this isn't a joule thief..
but the jt folks are more likely to use this than the desk jockeys.. out there..
if you use 9 volts and higher use a small 90v neon bulb with a diode to the battery..
if tuned right you can double your run time.. this is a ferrite core from a junk flyback coil..
i used a dual pot but it measures 2.2 k .. puts out a mod sine wave..
transistors or mosfets work.. fet have a cleaner sine wave..
the trick here is to not use the batterys voltage so use a diac , sidac , or even gas discharge tubes rated high than your battery volts.. just catch bemf back to the battery on the side that the transistor is in the off position so the volts feed back go in the battery and not the coil..

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: robot797 on October 15, 2011, 07:26:23 PM

Quote from: LeaningGreen on October 11, 2011, 06:22:23 PM
For those of you that use the fuji or kodak type circuit Goldmine has them on sale for $0.49 ea!
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G17610&utm_source=Goldmine&utm_campaign=fe7d19f680-Sept10&utm_medium=email

i live in holland so i cant order some (only paypall i has no creditcard)

can somone order me 30 i will pay back

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: mike2550 on October 16, 2011, 06:45:55 PM

Sorry to interupt this very loooooong thread. I am years behind you guys(just trying to learn). I just started out to make a JT. The one I attempted is the simple one with the 2N3904, 1 k resistor, and Led. I bought all the parts needed at RS, but they don't have the ferrite toroid. So, I made my own! Anyhow, mine does not work with the 1K resistor but it will work without it. Is this normal? My DIY toroid was made from iron wire wrapped around a rubber grommet and then with about 20 turns each wire(30 gauge).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: LeaningGreen on October 16, 2011, 07:06:32 PM

Everyone has to start at some point if they are interested.
There is a lot of information to read. It is well worth your time to read some.
Trying to read it all at once, you would never start building. lol

Iron wire is diff than ferrite. Diff in such a way that you will get less ringing back from it(BEMF). The lower voltage on the base seems to have caused you have a working unit but the 1K resistor is holding back to much of the lower voltage. So, it works without it. If you can find an old computer MB, CFL base, power supply they have ferrite toroids on them. You should plan to have at least a 20ohm resistor on the base so you dont kill the transistor. Many use a 1K pot with a 20ohm to the base. That way you can adjust the pot but never be less than 20ohms on the base. Some prefer 100ohm minimum on the base. This is where the reading will explain a lot.

Best of luck.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: mike2550 on October 16, 2011, 07:16:44 PM

@leaningGreen, thanks for the reply! I will get back to reading some more.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: LeaningGreen on October 16, 2011, 07:26:48 PM

Congrats on getting it running with a little improv.
Most puter repair places will give you a few dead MB's & power supplies for free if you ask.
There is always dumpster diving after they close too. lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on October 17, 2011, 02:16:42 PM

Well done Mike2250, As you have seen this is a long long thread going way back in time, with some excellent ideas and contributions. Most of the JT type circuits I had put together I reclaimed from scrap, as leaning green has already mentioned scavaging pays off...no need to spend money as most parts you can find for free. You will also get good results using thin stranded hook up wire to wind you toroid...it's all experimental so results will vary. Kind Regards

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on October 17, 2011, 02:46:42 PM

Guys:
If all you want to do is to light an led with a Jtc for a couple of days, then the yellow colored Iron Powder Toroid Cores (non ferrite) that are found in the used pc power supplies or motherboards will work.
But, if you are trying to get better efficiency than that, the junk pile is not the way to go.
Electronic Goldmines ferrite type toroid cores I'm sure will be well worth the money.
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/searchprods.asp?searchstring=1++toroids+ferrite&pagenumber=1&sort_on=&sort_by=

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: wings on October 17, 2011, 03:12:38 PM

Quote from: kooler on October 14, 2011, 11:50:39 PM
i know this isn't a joule thief..
but the jt folks are more likely to use this than the desk jockeys.. out there..
if you use 9 volts and higher use a small 90v neon bulb with a diode to the battery..
if tuned right you can double your run time.. this is a ferrite core from a junk flyback coil..
i used a dual pot but it measures 2.2 k .. puts out a mod sine wave..
transistors or mosfets work.. fet have a cleaner sine wave..
the trick here is to not use the batterys voltage so use a diac , sidac , or even gas discharge tubes rated high than your battery volts.. just catch bemf back to the battery on the side that the transistor is in the off position so the volts feed back go in the battery and not the coil..

robbie

gas discharge I like sparks.... with high electrons avalanche
this concept is applicable to short muller motor coils?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvIUq9aCKIU&feature=autoplay&list=ULpQ0FyFaPqJQ&lf=mfu_in_order&playnext=2

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: LeaningGreen on October 17, 2011, 04:41:35 PM

@NickZ,
Many come here new and want to see it they have the ability to do this.
If they can from junk parts then they will search out better things if they read.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on October 17, 2011, 06:08:17 PM

I just want to let the newcomers know that the advice of using junk parts will only get them meager result, as the toroids found in old Pc power supply are not "ferrite" nor will they work the same, just to save a couple of bucks. I know, as I've built many of them. The picture below are mostly using the pc power supply toroids. Which is why I'm letting you know that they don't work as well as the real ferrite ones.
These are Kooler style backward Jtc. or Hartley oscillators, which are generally more efficient than the regular JT. Kooler had some of his BwJt last 7 months running non stop. That's quite a difference compared to just couple of days running when using Iron powder cores.
Just trying to point some of the new guys in the direction of obtaining the best results.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: pree5 on October 22, 2011, 01:57:14 PM

mini Ring Core Calculator it's help to all ;D ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

http://www.dl5swb.de/minirk12_install.exe (http://www.dl5swb.de/minirk12_install.exe)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on October 22, 2011, 11:08:45 PM

@ mike2550

Since so many people seem to have difficulty getting toroids, I posted some videos showing a few "no toroid" Joule thiefs. As you have access to Radio Shack, I recommend this one >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7CFkRLrtss

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: mike2550 on October 23, 2011, 12:06:29 AM

I was able to get a toroid out of a cfl. It is green(not sure what it is made of). It seems to work much better than my home made one. Again, I don't have to use the resistor in the circuit? It works with out it and the transistor does not get hot.

Keep in mind I am a total novice here and just trying to learn. I have a 2 volt led in the normal position on the circuit and I also have a 3 volt led across the two toroid outputs. Both of these will light up. I also noticed the toroid outputs are putting out an AC voltage. So, I ran with both leds still in circuit, a 120V to 9V AC transformer(wall wart) in reverse feeding it from the white led. I got about 22V AC . With a stonger battery I got less voltage(about 16V AC) out of the transformer. This got me interested so, I then ran from the transformer a 120V led night lite and had it putting out some light(although not as bright as normal). So, one very used 1.5 volt AA battery runing a 2 volt led, a 3 volt led, backwards through a step down transformer and a led night lite. Pretty cool!

Another thing I have found interesting: I have a 1.5 volt AA battery that I have drained down atleast 3 times now. I can let it sit for a few hours then put back on the JT circuit and it lights up again for many hours.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on October 23, 2011, 02:15:00 AM

Mike:
The small toroids that come inside the cfl are ferrite, and they do work fairly well for their size. The picture of the smallest BwJt above on my last post is also from a cfl. It has a secondary, which can light several leds off of it.
I am surprised that you were able to light the night light bulb, but it is probably because you have not used a resistor on the base of the transistor. This can work, but the duration or running time will be much less. The point of the resistor is to control the amount of current that the circuit can use, otherwise is will discharge the AA battery in just one day, or less.
I would recommend using the BwJt circuits as in the my pictures, it is a simple circuit and more efficient than the normal Jt. You pretty much can see how they are wired from just looking at the pics.
You can also use the pancake coil idea made my Lidmotor, for a very efficient very low power draw circuit that does not use the toroid. There are many ways to go on this, but the neat thing is to have it last many days or weeks on an AA battery.
Xee's circuit is also another good example of an efficient circuit.
If you use the 2700 mA AA rechargeable batteries they can last twice as long as a regular non rechargeable AA, and can also be recharged as well.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 23, 2011, 03:30:18 PM

Nick:

All of the toroids I have found in cfl's (the green ones) were powdered iron and not ferrite. I know these work too but not as efficient as ferrite. Maybe you have different cfl's?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on October 23, 2011, 06:45:46 PM

Thanks Bill:
I've never seen the green toroids, but I have used the orange, and smaller black ones found in the cfls. They seam to work ok. As well as many different yellow pc types. Yes, they all work, I guess it all depends on what anyone wants to do. But, as I have used them, I still recommend not to use the iron powder ones even though they do work to a usable degree. I had a bunch of the yellow toroids around the house, so... I could not resist.
Pictures below of are iron powder cores, regular Jtc, and they are still working two years later. Not bad for the price... Zilch!
NickZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 23, 2011, 09:17:26 PM

Quote from: NickZ on October 23, 2011, 06:45:46 PM
Thanks Bill:
I've never seen the green toroids, but I have used the orange, and smaller black ones found in the cfls. They seam to work ok. As well as many different yellow pc types. Yes, they all work, I guess it all depends on what anyone wants to do. But, as I have used them, I still recommend not to use the iron powder ones even though they do work to a usable degree. I had a bunch of the yellow toroids around the house, so... I could not resist.
Pictures below of are iron powder cores, regular Jtc, and they are still working two years later. Not bad for the price... Zilch!
NickZ

Nick:

You sure can't beat zilch, ha ha. We all know that JT's can be built from many materials but I guess I am just used to ferrites. I have never seen orange, that is a new one on me. But if you can make them work, more power to you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on October 24, 2011, 12:08:18 AM

It was actually Jeanna that had mentioned about the smaller orange toroids cores from the cfls, that's where I had heard about them and decided to give them a try also, as I had some dead cfls around. Who knows what they are actually are made of, but they seam to work, and were free. So, for people living where you can't get the ferrite cores, the small toroids from from the cfls do work, and some of them may even be ferrite. And may be of higher permability than the yellow ones from the pc power supplies.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Flux4Energizer on November 01, 2011, 03:43:34 PM

Hello guys,

I just uploaded my latest project.
A Joule Thief Battery Charger ;D
I hope you guys can give me tips and maybe some ideas on how to further improve the circuit.
My last joule thief project was over a year ago and this circuit is an improvement of the circuit i posted 2 years ago.

The video is on youtube (here's the link): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aof3acSpfc

The circuit is very simple, but working very good.
Well hope to hear your replies and ideas and/or tips.

Regards,
Flux

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Ganzha on November 05, 2011, 11:45:11 PM

For information only - inventor of Jule Tiff is inventor from former UssR - this schematics was publised since 1970 in russians amateur zines!!!! Look carefully!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 06, 2011, 01:22:26 AM

The inventor of the Joule Thief is Big Clive, He also named the circuit.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Ganzha on November 06, 2011, 03:00:03 AM

The page I have published from 1985 inventor of this devices is Maksimaztchuk from USSR

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nul-points on November 06, 2011, 09:26:54 AM

LOL @ this pi$$ing contest about who 'invented' the Joule Thief !

[the 'Joule Thief' is a regular 'Blocking Oscillator' configuration, as used in Tube circuits for many 10s of years (ie. well before the 1950s), one variant of which has been converted to Transistor operation in 'Common Emitter' mode]

np

http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com (http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Ganzha on November 06, 2011, 12:33:48 PM

Quote from: nul-points on November 06, 2011, 09:26:54 AM
LOL @ this pi$$ing contest about who 'invented' the Joule Thief !

[the 'Joule Thief' is a regular 'Blocking Oscillator' configuration, as used in Tube circuits for many 10s of years (ie. well before the 1950s), one variant of which has been converted to Transistor operation in 'Common Emitter' mode]

np

http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com (http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com)

Shematics from Maksimatchuck is not for Tube! this is for Transistors only! This is not Bloking Generator! It is quite obvious! Check it! This shematics works not as normal Bloking oscillator - that way U could use two coils without any ferrire or metal cores! Think!
Here is typical Schematic of Bloking Osc. ÃŸ this is very differetnt!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 06, 2011, 03:36:42 PM

Some tests on the 120 VAC LED bulb LaserSaber is using:
video >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6H6wc5JLL28

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nul-points on November 06, 2011, 03:39:58 PM

Quote from: Ganzha on November 06, 2011, 12:33:48 PM
Shematics from Maksimatchuck is not for Tube! this is for Transistors only! This is not Bloking Generator! It is quite obvious! Check it! This shematics works not as normal Bloking oscillator - that way U could use two coils without any ferrire or metal cores! Think!
Here is typical Schematic of Bloking Osc. ÃƒÅ¸ this is very differetnt!

... one '!' symbol per sentence - can i have some of what you're smoking, Ganzha? ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on November 07, 2011, 11:03:14 AM

Hi,

Here is a little LED driver that I have tested.

It can be run from a 1,5 volt battery. Maximum
input 9 volt, but the Q1 transistor will be warm.

Bigger coil and power NPN on heatsink (Q1)
for higher input voltages and higher loads.

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 08, 2011, 02:03:09 AM

Groundloop:

Very nice, well done.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: ALVARO_CS on November 10, 2011, 12:12:21 PM

May it be useful when one has a poor access to big sized cores, or cores with special shapes.
I made a cube in cardboard (2mm) ext. dimensions 3,3x3,3x3,3 cm, and wired it bifilar 11 turns in the three directions (total 33 turns). Aluminum wire from an old transformer 0,8 mm.
Epoxied the interior, and filled with ferrofluid.
Used successfully in a JT (thanks @ Gadget)
It gives induction in all directions, so I`m planning to insert it in a bigger cube, immerse it in ferrofl. Wire another coil over it, and see if it can amplify the same way as Tesla transformer is supposed to. (related too with the Gabriel device.)
As always, I have a great difficulties in having reliable measurements. (no scope) and IÂ´ve become an expert in salvaging all kinds of discarded electronics he he ;D

Cheers

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on November 11, 2011, 04:41:46 AM

Hi,

This is a LED lamp driver that I'm researching now.
The documentation can be found here: http://home.no/ufoufoufoufo/FMR.rar

Groundloop.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on November 11, 2011, 05:20:04 AM

Hi,

This is the RF frequency scan from the coils.
The green graph is background RF and the
red graph is from the coils. As you can see
the RF radiation is very small. At 1 meter
away from the coil the RF is very low.
There is no audio noise from the coils.

I get almost full light output from the 1,8 Watt
led bulb at a input of 2,7 Volt @ 0,69 Amp.
(1,863 Watt). So there is little loss in this circuit.

If you want to run this circuit from 12 Volt then
add a 470 Ohm 5 Watt resistor in series with
the transistor base pin.

The transistor shown in the circuit drawing will
not survive higher voltages than 12 Volt. The
inductive spikes generated is so high that the
transistor will self destruct at higher voltages.

I tested a base resistor (variable 5K) and the
transistor did blow at 29 Volt input. Just want to let
you know.

I need to find a power NPN with a voltage
rating of approx. 1000 Volt.

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 11, 2011, 10:55:27 AM

Some more tests on the 120 VAC LED bulb LaserSaber is using (current reduction tests):

video >>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKj4FGB2AyA

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on November 11, 2011, 12:09:57 PM

xee2,

Nice test. :-)

Do you know if those small LED bulbs (for 110VAC in US and for 230VAC in Europe)
have a IC circuit in the socket?

Also, do you get a lot of audio noise when running the transformer
circuit?

I did try to add a 5K variable resistor with a capacitor in parallel in my circuit, but every time I get some
"good" current usage with a reasonable good output to the LED lamp, then my transistor blows. So far I have
only been able to run my circuit at low voltages. I guess that when I add a series capacitance to my
transistor base then the core itself is free to oscillate, thus creating voltages that exceed the transistor
safe operating area. :-)

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 11, 2011, 03:10:38 PM

Quote from: Groundloop on November 11, 2011, 12:09:57 PM

Do you know if those small LED bulbs (for 110VAC in US and for 230VAC in Europe)
have a IC circuit in the socket?

Also, do you get a lot of audio noise when running the transformer
circuit?

The Radio Shack transformer I am using does not make any noise at all. I suspect there is a full wave rectifier and maybe a transformer in the bulb, but I have not taken one apart.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on November 11, 2011, 05:11:48 PM

xee2,

Thank you for taking time to answer my questions.

Tonight I did try out the attached circuit. The advantage of this circuit is that
we do not waste the base current since this current also must go through the
power coil. Same goes for the trigger coil current to the base. I'm now using
the BUX98A transistor, rated at 1000 Volt. At 4 Volt @ 0,35A current my 1,8 Watt
led bulb did go to approx. full brightness. So the circuit run very efficient.

I'm now working to find a way to pulse the Ferrite core without blowing up the
transistor. (Has blown up 5 transistors today.) Every time I try to find some
ferromagnetic resonance then my transistor blows up. Every time.............. :)

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 11, 2011, 08:38:53 PM

@ Groundloop

That BUX98A looks very interesting.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on November 12, 2011, 01:53:01 AM

@xee2,

The oscillator is close to an Hartley oscillator. It is a low waste
configuration because the base current is "recycled" through
the power coil. So it is easy to get close to 100% efficiently
with this circuit. If I increase my output coil to approx. 700 turns
then this circuit should (in theory) be able to light up a string
of led bulbs. But my goal right now is to see if I can get some
ferromagnetic resonance in the Ferrite core, and see if this
resonance does anything to the delivered output power.

Attached is my next try. I will use some diodes to clamp down
the transistor and give the high voltage spikes some path to
go. This will probably protect the transistor from blowing up.

[EDIT]
I have tested this circuit now. Now I have a "well behaved" circuit
that runs stable and the transistor does not blow up. But I also lowered
the efficiency a lot. Needs almost 2,5 Watt to fully light the 1,8 Watt LEDs.
Not good. :( I can also see on the spectrum analyzer that the circuit no
longer is a wide band oscillator, as it was.

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on November 12, 2011, 03:58:38 AM

Hi,

This circuit is better but still waste too much power.
I need 2 Watt to fully light the 1,8 Watt LED bulb.

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on November 12, 2011, 05:52:12 AM

Hi,

I have tested this circuit. I did use a function generator
and tried all frequencies from 0 to 5MHz. Did not detect
and change in the output from the circuit. Next test will
be making an extra coil for the function generator input
and test again.

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on November 12, 2011, 06:35:20 AM

Hi,

I have wired up this circuit. The first thing I noticed when I
connected the high voltage to the Ferrite core is that I got a
low light output in the LED lamp EVEN WITH THE CIRCUIT
POWER SWITCHED OFF!

Next thing I did was to switch the circuit on with a low
input voltage (10V @0,08A) and then switched the high voltage on.
The LED bulb light did get dimmer with the high voltage on.

The research goes on.........................

[EDIT] The LED bulb lighting up with only high voltage was due to
dielectric leakage between the Ferrite core and the coils.

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: powercat on November 12, 2011, 08:39:36 AM

Hi GL,
If you can get close to that 100% Try feeding the light energy into a solar cell,
it has been tried before on this thread some time ago, to many pages now to find it ;D

Also there is a new thread where this is already being tried
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=11686.msg305277#new
Vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5K11dCgulY

all the best
cat

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on November 12, 2011, 09:05:00 AM

@powercat,

I'll put that on my to do list.

Attached is my newest circuit. It is a mosfet version. The mosfet
is protected by 4 zener diodes. I get full light output in
my 12 Volt 1,8 Watt LED bulb with a input of 12,0 Volt and 0,06Amp (0,72W) current
when run from the circuit. The LED Bulb is using 0,08Amp @ 12,0 Volt (0,96W) when
connected directly to the PSU. The mosfet transistor runs cold, no waste power
in the circuit.

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on November 14, 2011, 04:31:41 AM

Hi,

Attached is my newest version of the ferrite resonant circuit.
I have added a couple of diodes to keep the transistor from
blowing up. I also has increased the turns of the output coil.
I have also found that I can "tune" the core resonant frequency
point by using a variable capacitor (10pF to 47pF) as shown.
The light output get a little brighter at some points of the frequency
scale when tuning the capacitor without the power input increasing.
This circuit runs cold without any heat in the transistor.
The circuit runs from a input of 1 to 3 Volt. My goal is to fine
tune this circuit to be run from 1,5 Volt. (One battery cell.)
The research will go on.......................................................

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 15, 2011, 03:06:20 AM

120 VAC LED bulb lit using 1.5 volt AAA battery.

video >>>> http://youtu.be/EOqKv0awVv8

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 15, 2011, 09:49:04 AM

Xee2:

Nice work. Try using two of the bulbs. I found that I can light two LOA 120 volts bulbs with an AA and the light of each is just about as bright as it is using only one bulb. So, I got almost twice the light. Leds are the way to go...much more light than I ever got from a tube or cfl.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on November 15, 2011, 07:04:22 PM

Hi,

I have taken apart a 2 Watt 230VAC LED bulb. The bulb had 42 leds
on four circuit boards. 12 leds on three side boards and 6 leds on the top
board. At the bottom there was a circuit board with a LNK302 IC. The main
input did go through a safety resistor of 15 Ohm. Then there was a MB6S
diode bridge. The input was feed through a serial coil and two smoothing
electrolytic capacitors of 4,7uF 400 volt. The LNK302 IC was attached to
a EL817 opto coupler. This opto coupler was melted because I have used
this bulb on my Joule Thief, probably with too high input voltage. So if you
have used this types of bulbs on a Joule Thief circuit, then do NOT reuse
the led bulb on the mains. Attached is some images and also the data
sheet for the IC.

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 15, 2011, 08:10:46 PM

Quote from: Groundloop on November 15, 2011, 07:04:22 PM
Attached is some images and also the data
sheet for the IC.

Thanks for info.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Ganzha on November 17, 2011, 07:13:31 PM

Hello!
I have build Julie Tiff with Tip31 510 Om resistor and Ferrite ring 2 inch it works with Leds string for Car tuning (for 12 Volt) I have added some magnets and FQ of oscillator had been exchanged.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 20, 2011, 06:55:33 AM

Some tests on Joule thief with jonnydavro base inductor added.

video >>> xee2vids's Channel - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/user/xee2vids#p/a/u/0/dpA1pve8xBk)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on November 20, 2011, 03:58:24 PM

GE 3watt led bulb
it has a lnk605dg on the back side of the board http://www.datasheetarchive.com/indexdl/Datasheet-098/DSA00160299.pdf (http://www.datasheetarchive.com/indexdl/Datasheet-098/DSA00160299.pdf)
and a 600v 0.5a bridge also

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 20, 2011, 05:37:03 PM

Joule thief with 120 VAC LED bulb - part 4 (adding base inductor reduces current without reducing brightness of bulb)

video >>> http://youtu.be/F2b7G-Z5B6w (http://youtu.be/F2b7G-Z5B6w)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on November 21, 2011, 01:54:09 PM

xee2,

You get a higher light output without any increase in input usage
if you connect a wire from the collector on the transistor to one of
the transformer output wires. (Try both transformers wires, it
matter to get the correct one!)

If you do not want a DC path back to the collector then you can use
a capacitor like I did on my circuit.

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 21, 2011, 03:16:02 PM

@ Groundloop (http://www.overunity.com/profile/groundloop.1809/)[/color]

Thanks for the suggestion. I gave it a try. However, there was no increase in brightness with the 120 VAC LED bulbs. But, I have tied one side to ground with fluorescent tubes to get an increase the tube brightness in some other circuits I have built.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 23, 2011, 12:50:46 PM

Joule thief lighting xenon tube using Davro inductor
video >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnPa9oT6o9E

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: powercat on November 24, 2011, 02:10:33 PM

Nice work Xee2,
any chance of getting that xenon tube to full brightness ;D

There must be a Jule Thief record for the light amount produced for the minimum of watts, anyone know the answer ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Ganzha on December 01, 2011, 09:41:10 AM

Joule Tieff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tagor on December 01, 2011, 11:28:38 AM

Quote from: Ganzha on December 01, 2011, 09:41:10 AM
Joule Tieff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

can you detail your shematic ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: flathunter on December 01, 2011, 08:21:29 PM

Quote from: powercat on November 24, 2011, 02:10:33 PM
Nice work Xee2,
any chance of getting that xenon tube to full brightness ;D

There must be a Jule Thief record for the light amount produced for the minimum of watts, anyone know the answer ?

I'd like to throw my hat in the ring here (no pun intended).....

Check out these milliwatt inputs...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQaAyo8X4e0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQaAyo8X4e0)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yD4YOpzKxBQ&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yD4YOpzKxBQ&feature=related)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: powercat on December 02, 2011, 10:06:48 AM

Hi flathunter.
All your links are now saying video taken down ? I did manage to watch the first video 90 milliamps is very low,
but how do you calculate the light output, I don't think many people have light meters.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: flathunter on December 02, 2011, 10:19:22 AM

Quote from: powercat on December 02, 2011, 10:06:48 AM
Hi flathunter.
All your links are now saying video taken down ? I did manage to watch the first video 90 milliamps is very low,
but how do you calculate the light output, I don't think many people have light meters.

Hi Powercat!

I just took down the videos because I didnt want to misinform people and I realised I had made an elementary blunder and put my multimetre in the wrong place. I claimed that I was running the 72W CFL on less than 1 milliamp (200 microamps) at 5V - This was rubbish. I can run the big CFL at around 100 milliamps, but NOT 100 microamps! Its still a very impressive circuit and I will add some more videos soon which make the power consumption clear. I could run xenons in series with CFLs with 1AA as the input, so it its pretty juicy.....but not as juicy as I first thought!

Bit embarrassing really, but there you go! We learn from our mistakes and all that

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on December 03, 2011, 09:06:51 PM

Hi everyone , just passing by , a cheap source of spy camera for you guys

http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/84089/Cameras_in_Digital_Convert_Boxes__BEWARE_______wow_must_see/

I bet you will get a kick out of it Pirate !

I bet you could still use the box without cam .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 19, 2011, 11:02:59 PM

Here is something I found interesting. A new type of rechargeable AA battery rated at 1.6 volts with a 1.8 volt terminal voltage after re-charge. One of the comments on this said that the discharge curve is much flatter than with the 1.2 volt bats. This extra voltage should make a lot of our little circuits light some lights a little brighter. I plan on testing these in my 1 watt Cree led flashlight that operates on two AA bats. (It is un modified)

http://www.amazon.com/PowerGenix-ZR-PGX1HRAA-4B-Charger-Rechargeable-Batteries/dp/B0029NZVZ0/ref=pd_sim_e_3

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 21, 2011, 09:30:18 AM

This is something for Christmas, a Joule thief that will light LED Christmas tree lights straight out of box (unmodified) using 1.5 volt AA battery.

video >>> http://www.youtube.com/user/xee2vids#p/u/0/LhyAcQzaleU

It uses a transformer and the base inductor suggested by Jonny Davro. This same circuit will light xenon tubes and fluorescent tubes as well as 120 VAC LED bulbs from a 1.5 volt AA battery also.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: rxpc on January 07, 2012, 06:16:55 PM

Hello everyone,

this is one amazing site! You guys are doing some great things here. I was wondering if anyone was using smd5050 led lights with the fuji AA mod? I had purchased some of these leds a while ago to use for under cabinet lighting in the kitchen. I thought maybe the fuji mod would be great for something like that.

thanks
Kevin

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on January 09, 2012, 09:19:28 PM

@ Pirate and All:
I had mentioned that by the time we figure out how to make the best Joule Thief, we'll probably be able to buy one cheaper than we can make it.

For $10 you can buy a Joule Thief Kit, including shipping. I don't know if this Joule Thief circuit is now available "ready made", or not, but if not, it soon will be, at least from China.
You can already buy solar garden lights (Jtc) for a $1, at the Dollar Stores, in some places.

Joule Thief Boost Circuit (http://www.joulethief.com/kit.php) ($10 kits free delivery)

Hopefully this year, 2012, will be the best year yet, for us all.

NickZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: rxpc on February 05, 2012, 03:29:00 PM

I finally found some toroids locally at a science surplus store. They're 1inch, not painted, grey in color. I made an attempt at a MK1 style toroid, 26 turns at 180 and 2 jt windings at 180. I only have a dmm, but priliminary testing shows 58volts ac, 35volts rectified on each pickup coil. I added a another secondary on one side, that also showed about 58volts ac, 33volts rectified. I put the two coils on one side in series and got 70volts ac, 50volts rectified. I guess I was expecting the rectified voltage to be about the same as the ac voltage, but again, I only have a dmm to test with.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on February 06, 2012, 02:38:26 PM

Quote from: rxpc on February 05, 2012, 03:29:00 PM
I finally found some toroids locally at a science surplus store. They're 1inch, not painted, grey in color. I made an attempt at a MK1 style toroid, 26 turns at 180 and 2 jt windings at 180. I only have a dmm, but priliminary testing shows 58volts ac, 35volts rectified on each pickup coil. I added a another secondary on one side, that also showed about 58volts ac, 33volts rectified. I put the two coils on one side in series and got 70volts ac, 50volts rectified. I guess I was expecting the rectified voltage to be about the same as the ac voltage, but again, I only have a dmm to test with.

Well done, you can no look forward to further experimental progress. There's a wealth of information and guidance within this mamoth thread! Your results depend on many factors regarding circuit design...component choice and values. If you are new to electronics take some time to investigate how AC to DC rectification works, 'GOOGLE' rectifiers. Digital meters however don't normaly work to well with spikey pulse waveforms and infact can be destroyed!!! Lastly if you intend to take a deeper interest in electronic circuits of this nature you will find an oscilloscope a worthwhile investment.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: woopy on February 25, 2012, 05:06:13 PM

Hi all

Have some of you already experimented this winding as per Sergdo ?? and have results with this design ??

i made a replication and it seems very interesting !

thank's

good luck at all

laurent

http://youtu.be/ZGSz_a3tTrk

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gnino on March 16, 2012, 08:02:02 AM

multifilar coil joule thief
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oejW6bEnCZc&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oejW6bEnCZc&feature=youtu.be)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on March 16, 2012, 08:39:30 PM

@all

Hi everyone , i made my video about RESONANCE and the explanation about how important in getting really efficent circuits and free energy device .

Its been a long time coming because i could not find a camera capable to show the strings moving .

http://www.overunity.com/12155/resonance-101-test-what-tesla-test-it/

Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: wings on March 17, 2012, 03:27:23 AM

Quote from: gnino on March 16, 2012, 08:02:02 AM
multifilar coil joule thief
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oejW6bEnCZc&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oejW6bEnCZc&feature=youtu.be)

bravo Gnino
puoi postare anche lo schema e soprattutto una foto del solenoide.
l'avvolgimento multiplo Ã© sul solenoide o sul piccolo toroide?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gnino on March 17, 2012, 04:46:28 AM

sul solenoide 7 fili in serie , (6 fili da positivo a collettore 1 filo da positivo alla base)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: funny on May 05, 2012, 09:17:21 AM

My version of Joule Thief circ...
Many ideas put in one.
Trying to increase battery time. with AA*1 and AA*2

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Ganzha on May 09, 2012, 08:07:36 PM

Quote from: funny on May 05, 2012, 09:17:21 AM
My version of Joule Thief circ...
Many ideas put in one.
Trying to increase battery time. with AA*1 and AA*2

That is very interesting schematic!

Please specify nuber of turns and AWG of coil is it bifiliar?
Could you please specigy what pins of NE555 is connected? (there are pins)

It is very close to Bedini Charger and Romanoff CE

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on May 10, 2012, 02:42:16 PM

Quote from: Ganzha on May 09, 2012, 08:07:36 PM
That is very interesting schematic!

Please specify nuber of turns and AWG of coil is it bifiliar?
Could you please specigy what pins of NE555 is connected? (there are pins)

It is very close to Bedini Charger and Romanoff CE

Yes good point... Seems to be a lot of missing information here! In what mode is the 555 working in and how. You also state two 'AA' batteries, I can only see one in your drawing. A good circuit description and component values would not go amiss for those wishing to replicate your circuit. Information posted for others to share is appreciated of course but many keen to experiment are novices. kind Regards

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: funny on May 10, 2012, 04:16:49 PM

Sorry but i did this on purpose.
I'm trying diffrent components, so I did not want to post component's values.
Standard 555 astable circuit so i can adjust the on off freq.

Yes it is bifiliar windings.

Video of the breadbord. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgyFZQFeznA

mbk.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Ganzha on May 19, 2012, 05:05:34 AM

Quote from: funny on May 10, 2012, 04:16:49 PM
Sorry but i did this on purpose.
I'm trying diffrent components, so I did not want to post component's values.
Standard 555 astable circuit so i can adjust the on off freq.

Yes it is bifiliar windings.

Video of the breadbord. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgyFZQFeznA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgyFZQFeznA)

mbk.

That is....... Funny

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on June 18, 2012, 10:10:27 PM

Hi Guys,
Electricme is on vacation, gess where!!!!!!!MA ;D
Won't be long here, still have to get a house back in Aussie strightened out, but while I'm over this way I'll chime in from time to time, good to see the old folks still posting and the JT is still going great, good work everyone.
Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on July 05, 2012, 08:37:52 PM

Jim ole Fella . It is good to hear that you are still among the living . Miss the old days on this thread . I am Still here battleing My big C but i am still also among the living . I am also still in the background making FE devices . The newest project involves Nitinol and Jt's Drop Me a line sometimes.

gadget al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on July 07, 2012, 01:34:45 PM

Hi both... me too, still around and looking in from time to time. All the best Guy's Merv

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tysb3 on July 18, 2012, 07:59:54 AM

hi gadgetmall

maybe you find there something for yourself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nn_nMVShU3U&feature=player_embedded

http://www.cancertutor.com/Cancer/Laetrile.html

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on July 18, 2012, 02:04:43 PM

Hi crowclaw tysb3 . it's good to see you and thank you . I am working With Nitinol and if you like you can follow me on the heat to mechanical energy thread in Air Temp Nitinol . Some interesting things and i will eventually apply all we have learned here with the Nitinol project . My Goal is to get a self running Nitinol Engine running from just the earths ground temperature difference with the air temperature and connecting it to a generator .and of them can be very small and run tiny Gens for Jt technology's . See you later .

Gadget Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on July 18, 2012, 04:21:51 PM

Hi Gadget, thanks for your contact and please keep in touch... also with you in mind Google search ' Lee Crock' sadly no longer with us. I believe his simple device can have certain benefits. Take the time to read up on this device and put your own together (you have the skills) I have used one for some time now. All the best.
Kind Regards

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tysb3 on July 19, 2012, 08:32:56 AM

there is going very interesting thing. check it:

http://www.youtube.com/user/ufopolitics?feature=watch (http://www.youtube.com/user/ufopolitics?feature=watch)

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/11885-my-asymmetric-electrodynamic-machines-19.html (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/11885-my-asymmetric-electrodynamic-machines-19.html)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 10, 2012, 12:36:27 AM

Great to see the old crew here again!!! Ah, the JT projects are still going.....this is great to see. I will hopefully have some more time now to get back into all of this...and more. Jim, Gadget, Crowclaw, and all of the others....really great to see you guys.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Ganzha on August 22, 2012, 04:10:41 AM

here is my new Joule Thief

http://youtu.be/iAllWgPTC78

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on August 22, 2012, 11:14:37 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on August 10, 2012, 12:36:27 AM
Great to see the old crew here again!!! Ah, the JT projects are still going.....this is great to see. I will hopefully have some more time now to get back into all of this...and more. Jim, Gadget, Crowclaw, and all of the others....really great to see you guys.

Bill

Yeah.... Still around Bill and Guys, Crowclaw

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kd5sgs on August 23, 2012, 10:42:30 PM

Thanks to Pirate and gadgetmall, I was able to complete the AAA Fuji Circuit. I was playing around with a toroid touch parts of the fuji board, to my surprise once I touched 2 pins of the transformer, the light got brighter! Does anyone know why this happened?

http://www.overunity.com/12606/cvs-disposable-camera/msg333289/#msg333289

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Ganzha on August 24, 2012, 09:48:53 PM

here with bulb
http://youtu.be/zhxFcyh-CuM

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on August 25, 2012, 12:25:32 PM

Quote from: kd5sgs on August 23, 2012, 10:42:30 PM
Thanks to Pirate and gadgetmall, I was able to complete the AAA Fuji Circuit. I was playing around with a toroid touch parts of the fuji board, to my surprise once I touched 2 pins of the transformer, the light got brighter! Does anyone know why this happened?

http://www.overunity.com/12606/cvs-disposable-camera/msg333289/#msg333289 (http://www.overunity.com/12606/cvs-disposable-camera/msg333289/#msg333289)

You altered the capacitance of the circuit and approached resonance more closely.
@Bill

Thinking about your work the other day while researching the new battery systems coming out that you charge with salt water. I live where the swamp hits the ocean and find it would be a great place for a saltwater power plant. On a camping trip all your lighting needs could be supplied by bringing a shaker of salt with you! Standford University is developing these batteries using very cheap materials. Japaneese are developing a fuel cell that uses manganeese also. Exciting days ahead. http://www.gizmag.com/rechargeable-battery-freshwater-seawater/18565/ (http://www.gizmag.com/rechargeable-battery-freshwater-seawater/18565/)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 25, 2012, 12:43:35 PM

Quote from: sparks on August 25, 2012, 12:25:32 PM

You altered the capacitance of the circuit and approached resonance more closely.
@Bill

Thinking about your work the other day while researching the new battery systems coming out that you charge with salt water. I live where the swamp hits the ocean and find it would be a great place for a saltwater power plant. On a camping trip all your lighting needs could be supplied by bringing a shaker of salt with you! Standford University is developing these batteries using very cheap materials. Japaneese are developing a fuel cell that uses manganeese also. Exciting days ahead.

That sounds very interesting. I would like to see some of those. Is there any info out there on them yet?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on August 25, 2012, 04:54:33 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on August 25, 2012, 12:43:35 PM
That sounds very interesting. I would like to see some of those. Is there any info out there on them yet?

Bill

Here

http://www.gizmag.com/rechargeable-battery-freshwater-seawater/18565/ (http://www.gizmag.com/rechargeable-battery-freshwater-seawater/18565/)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 25, 2012, 05:27:07 PM

Quote from: sparks on August 25, 2012, 04:54:33 PM
Here

http://www.gizmag.com/rechargeable-battery-freshwater-seawater/18565/ (http://www.gizmag.com/rechargeable-battery-freshwater-seawater/18565/)

Sparks:

Thanks! Holy crap! You could run a house from this technology...even if you had to buy the salt by the drum load...it would still be cheap. Might be a while before we can get our hands on the nano tech used for these devices. Wonderfully interesting...thanks again.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on August 26, 2012, 01:02:04 AM

Quote from: kd5sgs on August 23, 2012, 10:42:30 PM
Thanks to Pirate and gadgetmall, I was able to complete the AAA Fuji Circuit. I was playing around with a toroid touch parts of the fuji board, to my surprise once I touched 2 pins of the transformer, the light got brighter! Does anyone know why this happened?

http://www.overunity.com/12606/cvs-disposable-camera/msg333289/#msg333289

Thats is Wonderful . And you see that this probing is exactly what i do with caps on that thing ., Make sure you document it down in a notebook for your reference later . Good Job Nice and bright .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on September 01, 2012, 06:51:38 PM

Latest Joule Thief i call JouleScreeamer .. detail were posted on joule ringer thread but its a basic Joule thief with a small twist..it ran for two days and almost a third . . i am currently watching the battery run down to 0.412 volts and she still lights the 5 led setup at the base of the lamp shown.Still screaming .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 01, 2012, 07:11:22 PM

Gadget:

That is very cool! What is that plastic shield over the coils doing there? Was it part of some component you salvaged, or is it in your circuit for a reason? I always thought that the 3055's took too much power to be a decent JT. I guess you have shown otherwise. Nice work.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on September 01, 2012, 07:55:13 PM

Thanks Bill . the hard plastic is An "Audio Amplifier" . it a stiff piece of plastic touching the top of the C-core . the c core has two ferrite c shapes that go thru the middle and top of this transformer . It will Screech and scream if not glued together . It's loud and buzzes like a Buzzer . the plastic amplifies that sound and it is deafening loud . Thats why i called it Joule Screamer :) No the 3055 will run to less than .3 volts .. I have no idea how many turns are on it cause pulled it from a circuit board . i would estimate about 30 or 50 turns on each side . its wired with the basic Jt wiring . i just used this c core and a 47uf cap across a 9 k pot . Doing a time run on it and it's going dead dead now at .345 v. the c core Vibrates where it comes together .thats why you see them glued and taped at the top in power supplies..If you set this thing on a smooth surface it gets louder and vibrated off the surface like a cell phone vibrator motor .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on September 01, 2012, 08:03:36 PM

sorry double post .. dam quote thing is messing me up .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on September 02, 2012, 01:30:41 PM

if you want to build this i used a standard jt hook up only instead of a 1k resistor replace with a 9 k pot and place a small electrolytic cap across the outer legs of that pot .the cap i used is 100mf@50v.i thought it was 47 until i got out the magnifiers (eyes getting bad) the center would go to your base and pick one outside leg to a coil .This will make your jt pulse variably. mine clicks one click (blink) per second and goes very high until it reaches the transistor frequency and coil frequency and then locks and stops oscillating but the core is also locked tight together by magnetism so the circuit is still energized / these c cores are also in old power supplies . I tried to pull one apart and the brittle ferrite crumbled and broke But some of them are not glued and have a stiff springy metal cap on top of them that you can pull off and the cores are not glued together . My latest video shows a piece of copper strip formed to fit the top and amplifies the sound . It also wiggle and moves but i don't think you can see it with my camera phone .
This Joule Screamer will not measure on any of my meters , it shows the same dc volts as the battery voltage 1.2 volts or lower. Nothing on the ac side that is negligible.like .068 to a bit 1.3 . very strange . even tried to put a diode on one leg and it still reads the battery volts .It has to be higher than 1.2 volts to light just one led and you would think much higher to light a 110 ac unmodified LED bulb. Radiant?

here is the first vid http://youtu.be/zA-7yc0J2XU (http://youtu.be/zA-7yc0J2XU)
new video uploading showing volts . and maybe wiggle of copper strip .
just a thought . The motion of the copper strip might be a prime mover for piezo element to generate more juice / it is also aiding in producing a second harmonic mixing with the first one . the frequency changes not only by the pot but by the distance of where the c cores meet and this is a random variable by the top of the copper strip grip .I would think this is a form of Flux Displacement in the core.The rattle harmonic was by accident in discovery and i think it can be harnessed for power.What i would do with this power is store it then bleed it back to the input side.
One last note is this design has advantages over a toroid in that it has a gap that is moving by magnetic force .motion and magnetism and pressure you can see and feel .
gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on September 02, 2012, 04:33:49 PM

Joule Screamer volts video http://youtu.be/gr5yztVOnTY (http://youtu.be/gr5yztVOnTY)

this time i got a range on ac to 1.3 volts but slightly lower on dc .Doesn't explain why i don't see the voltage to light leds ..especially a 110vac bulb
It Could be the frequency is higher than a digital meter can read . but still at a lower pulse it is low on DC even with a diode reading.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on September 03, 2012, 01:00:37 PM

Well i am a little sad at the activity on this board . It has vanished. I regret leaving for years and miss the backbone crew who built,tested and interacted . If i didn't say thank you to some then i will say it here being this thread is dead . Thank you Bill,MK1,Jeanna,Kooler,jonneydavro,Willeyinebreated,Xee,groundloop and all the other builders i forgot their names for some exciting inspirations . If not for you nothing would have been interesting or progressed to a higher level. SOme say it's all been done before and it's just a blocking oscillator but NO we took it further than anyone and taught others how to do it . The Internet is 1000's of time more info on Jt's that when the first JT by Clives was built and named because of your research ! It's the builders who are the Smartest not the mathematical trolls with meaning less quotes from a one handed mind.

I applause you and miss you but i understand why you are gone also .

Gadget .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on September 03, 2012, 02:43:55 PM

Gadgetmail:
Thank you for showing us your new Jt screamer. However this is not really something that some of us may want to replicate, or have to listen to.
After making many Jtc myself, and watching others do their own versions, although I find the circuits do have some practical use, they are not that practical to use in the long run. I do still use them as night lights, each and every night. But, what am I really saving on? Not much. They do come in handy when the AC power goes out, but other than that, I don't really see the point.
The idea we were all hoping for is that they could be made into a self-running device, or at least one that would last for months, running on a single AA battery, like some of kooler's backward Jtc. But, mine only last a few days, and then it's back to charging their batteries. Not a big savings, or usefulness, more of a hassle, as an led night light bought from a store will do the same thing, without having to change dead batteries.
These circuits are fun to build, yes, but that is about it. They are not the free energy device that we were hoping for, at least not the ones that I've built.
After saying that, I must add, that now I'm working on a solar panel circuits to charge batteries that will run these Jtc., Exciter circuits, leds, Cfls, etz... And, this is a free energy way of doing things. As even the panels came to me free of charge.
A couple of pictures below of what I'm working on now.
I also feel that I'm working on this practically by myself, as nobody is working on even the Exciter circuits now. But, I am...
NickZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 03, 2012, 05:00:41 PM

I use at least one JT circuit every day and...my lights are always free as I am getting in more free "dead" batteries from my friends than I am able to use....I am getting quite a collection over here.

I am now playing with the Peltier junctions and plan on using a JT along with that. Earth battery is still outputting and i use it from time to time. I am trying to think of a way to use the JT in my Heron's fountain experiments as well. As far as running my entire home from a JT off a single AA battery....well....I need some more time on that one, ha ha.

I believe that the JT, and its variants, have uses limited only by the imagination of the folks playing with them. I suppose it is hard to sustain that wild creative energy and device production that we had here back in the early days. It seems like each day, someone would post yet another version that did a lot more...etc...etc.

Nick, I like the work you are doing on the exciter circuits...I have one of Stiffler's boards but have never fired it up. Maybe one day.

Gadget, I believe that someone will incorporate the JT circuit into something we never even thought of before...and it will be great. I look forward to messing around with these, and other, circuits just to see what I can do. Now, I am also working on running a small dc motor off of a small JT circuit. The motor will run on .5 volts to 6 volts which is quite a range.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on September 03, 2012, 07:57:40 PM

Bill:
Maybe the Jt idea will someday develop into something that we can all use. Like the
solar garden lights, which have become so popular in the last few years.
I just opened some solar garden lights to see what was inside. There is no coil, just a tiny axial inductor, 2 diodes, 3 small caps, a couple of resistors, 4 leds, and the 2 inch solar panel. They work fine lighting the leds all night long, every night on just a single AA battery. All this and their stands are only a couple of dollar each. Thanks, China.
I wonder where they first got the idea from.

You've got one of the Docs 15 or 18x boards ($43, or so) and have not even used it yet? Just send it to me, I'll figure out what to do with it. Ha!
Dr. Stiffler can light several leds using those circuits, sometimes with no input source at all. He is the only person that I know of that has done this. Free energy, from a Jt type device, for real. As some Jtc can also be an Exciter circuit by just connecting the big L3 coil off of the transistor control, or base, and having an earth ground.
The Exciter idea still captivates me, and I continue with it, even by myself, if necessary. Cold electricity, is something else!
You can see by my last video that even a one inch long Exciter coil, works to produce high voltages, and RF frequencies. that will light Neons, Cfls, Florescent tube, and even the newer 7.5 watt led bulbs. And those same axial inductors will produce similar results, without the big Tesla type coils, that really may not be necessary, but they do help.
So, fire that baby up, (18x board) and let us know how it goes.

NickZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 03, 2012, 08:12:09 PM

Nick:

Yes, it is the SEC-18 board. There is one small problem with me firing it up.....I do not know how. I got it just about the time the Dr. restricted access to his website dealing with his research, and instructions. I just remember going there to find out how to hook it up and...well...maybe he moved his site, I don't know but any way, it sits on my shelf. I was going to play with it but was afraid of frying something before I even got started. His experiments were incredible. Some folks gave him a lot of abuse and that is too bad. He never deserved to be treated like that.

Maybe one day I will do something with it...we will see. If you see on the news that a rift in the space-time continuum has been traced to my area, you will know I hooked it up wrong, ha ha.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on September 04, 2012, 01:34:27 AM

Bill:
I had the information on the 18x boards, but it was a link that is in one of my other computers, which is in the repair shop. I just looked at his StifflerScientific.com site, but the 18x information has been removed, or I just can't find it.
If and when you are interested in finding out how to use the board you can e-mail him and ask for the information on it, as it was provided previously and was given to people that bought the board which now cost $46, or so. So, he does have the info on it, although I don't know if it's available in download form to those that didn't purchase it from him, anymore.
You have a treasure on your hands, you just have to find and read the instructions on it. Or maybe someone else has it and can e-mail it to you, also.
Here is one link to his site, although it may not help much, it's a start. It's the best I could do for now.
http://67.76.235.52/SEC18_1.htm (http://67.76.235.52/SEC18_1.htm)

Nick

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on September 04, 2012, 02:18:33 AM

good place to start bill. ;)
http://www.scribd.com/doc/20532134/Early-18x-Documentation-Release

and then maybe? NILS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Px2wS4RKNrY
http://www.scribd.com/doc/21060959/Near-Infinity-Spatial-Coherence-Light-System

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on September 04, 2012, 09:48:36 AM

hi Nickz .Thank you for sharing! No not every thing has been done on jt research . There is still more to do . As far as one running more than two days then i don't blame you . I have one running it self for over 2 years with 3 leds. It loops back over 3.5 volts back to the AAA source battery and keeps it going . Any Jt i build and most everyone here can run on dead battery for months at a time if not only a couple of weeks .You will never find them in stores.especially bright dead 1 cell battery lights :) Heck fugi will run 40watt cfl almost two days powered by 2500mah 1.3 volts for almost two days . We can take your bought three battery light and when its dead convert it to one cell and use just one of those dead batteries and to get twice more longer lit light.
That is SUPER Efficient if your a light nut like some of us.i can show you at least 50 Jt lights i have here at the house. One runs from a tiny super cap and is charged from a small solar cell for just 5 minuets artificial light and it will stay lit in the dark for two days. i have it under my table lamp in my bedroom . its on now and never goes out because it's also near a window and light passing thru a red curtain keeps it running in the day too .

Nice Coil projects with wireless juice there . What is your power input Volts .. Still One battery or more than that?

Bill . Thanks man i was beginning to think beside me and you this thread died for good . I have two of his Sec-18s . They can also run on 1.2 volts as well as 12 .

Wilbyinebriated . I have a hard time spelling it correctly . Man you were the First one to show a CFL and camera circuit . That was My inspiration Man , Thanks for helping and you got some nice stuff you shared .

This is a photo of that Joule Screaming JT day two running a replication of Johnnydavrs or lidmotors microwave fan coil bedini no bearing Magnet motor plus a satellite picup coil with the 5 led board . so 5 leds and running another motor with led and another induction coil running another led . I could spin another magnet on another mirror and it will also spin from the other spinning magnet and then put more pick up coils on it further away .
I also noted that at the top of the c ore junction i can light an led pickup coil there also wireless induction where they meet
. I guarantee i can make this Jt run longer than 2 days . It's a matter of bleeding some of the output into a diode cap configuration and then using another low loss germanium diode to feed back/bleed/ to source to reduce the input current . Now i could wind another coil on top of one of those two coils and do with a secondary without any loss in the circuit . You can also take it a step further and place another coil in series with the pot before it connects to the primary coil thus have a bi /tri secondary winding on that one and harness the kick there too.In these simple circuits the KEY is more coiled transformers and caps and lowloss diodes .and in this latest Jt, gaps in the core.
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on September 04, 2012, 11:04:19 AM

WillyInibriated:
The 18x documentation is exactly what I was looking for. As mentioned, I had the link to it, but I could not find it on his web site any longer.
thank you,
NickZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on September 04, 2012, 11:17:41 AM

Quote from: kd5sgs on August 23, 2012, 10:42:30 PM
Thanks to Pirate and gadgetmall, I was able to complete the AAA Fuji Circuit. I was playing around with a toroid touch parts of the fuji board, to my surprise once I touched 2 pins of the transformer, the light got brighter! Does anyone know why this happened?

http://www.overunity.com/12606/cvs-disposable-camera/msg333289/#msg333289 (http://www.overunity.com/12606/cvs-disposable-camera/msg333289/#msg333289)

What you have done there is Short out the bias resistor . tried it and yes it's full blast . you can use a piece of wire instead but remember your current draw will be MAXIMUM and the time it runs will be short before you change battery.
If you replace those connection with at least a 1 k pot you can fine tune it . and further mods are done across the pot legs with small caps .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on September 04, 2012, 12:21:32 PM

Gadgetmall:
Sorry for the misspelling of your username, I just noticed it.
There are more than a few of us here that are reading these post regularly. But, the reason that many are no longer building Jtc, is due to the fact that Joule Thiefs are just not that practical, or much of a savings. Although you mention self runners, none have been shown to run and actually produce a USABLE and BRIGHT light output, that are still running, to prove the point, and that can be REPLICATED. Dim or blinking leds are practically useless and of not much of interest to most people. If you can show a self runner that can BRIGHTLY light several leds, for months. I'll be the first to replicate it.
It seams that some people are charging up the batteries beforehand, then showing the device running AS IF it has been doing it for months. This is not the way to get anywhere with this technology.
I tried many, many, many replications of the backward Jtc like the ones that kooler showed (video link below), with no success of having a several month running device.
I do believe that it is possible, but even he did not further pursue the self runner. WHY? Isn't This what we all want. Is this not a very important device to replicate?
The link to his video below is what I'm mentioning here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dplIIhCbMcE&list=UU1SeqTWSCAhBBVjY6idzBvA&index=14&feature=plcp

On the other hand I have several solar panels to play with now, and many many used and discard Cfl, and florescent tubes of all types and sizes to work with. Some very big one, and smaller ones as well. This is where my attention is headed right now.
However, if some one produces a simple oscillator device that can self run and brightly light leds, please show it. Mine can run for a week or maybe more, but that is no big deal. I have hundreds of AAs (not dead ones) to keep them running, but that is of no interest to me, either.
I'm not trying to be negative, I want to produce something useable and see the results, not just toys to play with, but real practical useable devices, that are not available otherwise.
As I've mentioned several times, China will produce any of the devices that we come up with, and at a cost that we can't even buy the parts to reproduce ourselves. Their solar garden lights don't even use a transistor, no wound coil, either, in the last ones that I opened up. How simple is that? Are they getting ahead of us?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 04, 2012, 09:35:04 PM

NickZ, Wilby and Gadget:

Thank you all. I thought it was just me that could no longer log on the the Dr's site for the SEC-18. I am still not ready to play with it just yet but I will save those links Wilby posted for future ref.

Nick, I think the term "practical" is the one in contention here. To me, all of these are practical but, commercially and on a large scale, probably not. (Not yet anyway) You are right about China.....those solar led lights...I bought 5 of them for under $2 US each. I could not buy the rechargeable battery for that, much less the led, reflector and circuitry...and the photocell and solar cell. What a deal! I have rebuilt most of mine with much brighter leds and, they still stay on long into the night and are brighter.

We don't always have to agree here...that's cool. A lot of this is to each his own if you know what I mean. I, for example, still get excited looking at my first JT running an led from a single AA.....I know....but I really do, ha ha.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on September 04, 2012, 09:47:27 PM

Nickz . ? there are schematics buried in the huge thread that i posted and don't even have a copy but in 2009 EVERYONE build a JT . We nailed down the turns and winding procedures (jeanna)(Mark)(XEE) IST and many others and had a standard for core (goldmine 5 for a dollar) and transistors 2n2222a or 2n3904 . We blew up leds because they were so bright off an aa battery . They are the most efficient light producing circuits in the world. I really don't see it from your point of view. I guess it takes a high light bill with no money to pay it to appreciate the light ;D I can say without a doubt nearly everyone here since 2008 has bright efficient lighting from a single cell . some even used two . Anyways to each his own and keep up the sharing . Actually it was the Trolls who drove most people away and some of the Jt circuits was calculated by the finest professors and mathematicians to be over 101 % efficient. I don't think you found our work or theirs .
Anywho thanks for sharing and as i said before there is a lot of work left on a Jt to each their own and i respect that bro. . you have to look back from page 1 to about page 3000 somewhere in there are the most efficient diagrams and parts list .
And yes Solar is the way to go . I have a gridtie and 500 watts of panels outside and a 600watt wind generator charging 4 airplane batteries . Love it .i can make my digital utility meter go backwards .light bill now runs between 68 and 160 . used to be 300 and have seen a couple of 490$ bills before i put that system together . You may have miss some of those small CiS cell projects but i went cube crazy with them using baseball plastic ball display cases . also how much light do you need . i use this one every day and night . 40 watt new designed 110 bulb lights one entire room enuff to read by 10 feet away from my ring powered by c ells for days and days . weeks if i only use it from night till morning . here are few pic s. I cannot tell you how we would those things but this one uses a supoercap with 5 min light produces bright light all night . as the cap slowly drains another set of light in it take over due to a change in frequency and the flux off the torroid moves . So the toroid is wound with secondary s on different side and catch that energy as things change in that circuit . One CIS CELL 4.5v .. and if can't get enuff light off your Jt's then you should try Darlington transistors . they amplify twice as much as a the 2n3904 or 2222a..

wish i had the time to go thru the intire thread and put it all in a doc form so a search could be done on a particular design . BUT this post is one in 10's of thousands started By Bill with a simple question about why a resistor was or wasnt needed :) now there are several designs that dont need one at all .

first pic is new clear 40 watts for 7 expensive 110LEDS bulb .This is so bright is washed out the camera . It light my 14 x 20 bedroom corner to corner .

the last three are one of my solar cube lights . the bright led is super bright and lights all night and then the next day and some time later the other two wide angle 200,000 mcds take over and light the rest of the time .

fun times . and getting back in it if i run across some schematics i think you might like i'll pass em your way .

Gadget

BTW . kooler (robbie) lives a few miles from me .. He has got some amazing power off that lil aa . light thousands of leds brite bright .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on September 04, 2012, 09:54:34 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on September 04, 2012, 09:48:36 AM
Wilbyinebriated . I have a hard time spelling it correctly . Man you were the First one to show a CFL and camera circuit . That was My inspiration Man , Thanks for helping and you got some nice stuff you shared .

aww shucks... thanks gadget.

@nick... i had to hunt a bit for it too... :) i was glad to find it online so i didn't have to go looking through all my offline storage.

@bill... play with it when you find the time... and the NILS is fantastic when properly tuned.

dum spiro pario...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on September 04, 2012, 10:52:43 PM

We don't have to agree. Nor do I disagree.
But, I guess that the trolls must have missed me. So far... or got lost on there way.
I have seen every video, read every post, and know of most all that has ever been done or said, or replicated with these devices, in this and other forums. I use Jtc, and Exciter circuits daily, and I have them on right now... so, no need to tell me what I don't know.

I encourage you to demonstrate a device that is over 100 % efficient with it's input source. Or a self runner like you mentioned. I would love to see it. But, not dim, or blinking leds, that last "forever" A self runner is all the proof that we need, and, a real "practical" device would stimulate more interest to replicate and continue in this field.
I am not arguing any point, just opinions, as I see it. I'm not trying to be right, just trying to learn, and improve the gadgets that I'm interested in, and working on.

If we just wait a little longer we'll see that China will blow us away with their technology, and what they do with it. They have been hard at it. All we'll have to do is buy their products, sometimes even with free shipping, for less than it would take to make them, or the time spent on it. But, electronics is my hobby, and was my job previously, now I'm retired, and retarded if not working on something. Ha!
I appreciate these interesting circuits as much as anyone, or I wouldn't spend untold months, and years at it. But, I would like to see much more become of them, and the prize would go to the self runner, or runner up.

If you see Robbie, please say Hi for me, send him my greetings from Costa Rica, and tell him that I would love to see what he's been up to.
Gadget: Thank you, I'm on your side...
NickZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on September 04, 2012, 11:31:11 PM

Willy:
Thanks for finding the info on the 18x board. That is very important stuff, for those of us interested in the field. It took years of hard work for the Doc to get it to that point, I can see and appreciate that now myself. No easy feat. As any progress on that device is hard to come by. He is a magician. I can only imagine what's to come... even he said that China already had a "knock off" on some of his work. They're impossible to compete with, as they work practically for free.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on September 05, 2012, 06:34:36 AM

HEy NickZ you are a better reader than i am . I missed a whole lot of pages in the years . and i tell you every time i say 101% i duck and feel like i have become a target . Soo . In order to replicate some of the unique circuits i am working hard on someone elses claim . As soon as i get it running this time i will pay attention and document what i did and share it . I want to make darn sure you and everyone can do it .
I also like the sec .s i got a few Coils like u got and a couple of sec18's and a bunch of slayer exciters the size of stamp.I like em too., The only thing i have not found a use for them yet and thats where i am watching your experiments.I need to step up from 1.2 v to 12 on them . My first sec18 i blew the fuse track messing with 12v so i began running them on 1.2 . but the effect is weak so we will see on those . I like your work . Please keep at it . I assume you are trying some feedback on your Source or are you strictly going for light ?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on September 05, 2012, 01:20:18 PM

Nickz found the vid of my selfrunner . It is now encased in Lucite and is a gift i gave my Mom and dad . They have it on their mantel running . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLI0tDd7NnY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLI0tDd7NnY)
and part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVmwc9OsyB0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVmwc9OsyB0)
Now you may not think the brightness is great on three leds but they will let you see in total darkness .it's not a fake .
And if you can't believe what you see it really doesn't matter to me anymore . I don't care about proving it . What matters is i built it and it does what it does and i loved it so much i gave it to the ones who made me to show them what i did because Of them . Mom and Dad . So in mine and their eyes it is a real tangible feasible looping light.

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on September 05, 2012, 04:03:16 PM

Gadgetmall:
Ok, thanks for finding and posting the links.
Maybe the thing to do is to continue looking into this further. By possibly re- checking the current voltages, and current that is being used by the device, posting the circuit used, and even an update on how the device is working now, after two months. If it still exists. We really need to get this down.
Robbie (kooler) mentioned that he used non-rechargeable batteries, and that after 5 and a half months, the batteries leaked, possibly from constant self charging. But, that was all that was to be known of those two circuits, which he says he then dismantled. He also attributed the special component that made the circuit different, to a process that he learned from an "old guy" that told him how to take the glass diodes and bake them to change their characteristics. If you can call him, and find out more, I think that it would help to solve the mistery. As no one else that I know of has been able to replicate his results, including myself. I did not use "special diodes" though.

NickZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on September 05, 2012, 06:34:51 PM

Nickz years ago man . and it's at moms . It's been posted and explained and its in this thread . somewhere . yes its still going . no measurements Now its completely out of the question . LUCITE!and it has NIMH batterys before it was sealed. I thought ahead on them because of all the leaks they did charging them with Bedini's and Jt's Yes they can be brought back and ran 20 or 30 times and some explode and pop out goo.I'm going to get him ! I know i'm old but Geeze...YEs we do use special Diodes and transistors sometimes .I explained the process years ago about baking electronics and using bariumT and radioactive Chromium .there is a surplus yard 2 miles from me and it's like a candy store to a baby . all that old neat military electronics stuff there for the pickin. It's all in Experimenting and finding that place no one has gone before . And so i hope you are a bit more hopeful as you see it has been done and will be again. .Also it's probably easier for me to do it all over again than hunt thru this thread . all i can help is search for the Letter E and O and U on the Board and maybe you will stumble on it .....one day :-\

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on September 05, 2012, 08:28:11 PM

hey guys,
i have been looking for a replacement for the cooked diodes with no luck.. the diodes i cooked only worked that had Germanium in them..
but out of 25 diodes 2-3 may work at the 5-8 volt gap i was looking for..
but it's just like transistors you can buy 50 of them and 10 of them would perform far better than the rest..
and cores are the same.. i would order 12 cores and only use a couple of them.. cause they worked far greater than the others..
just remember that in the old days they doped diodes differently . some companys would use different p type impurities and the n type was Germanium so when you heat them to high temp the n-p separate a very small fraction and now it is worthless as a diode now but is a wicked very low volt sparkgap that rectified the energy at a cost less of the diode itself..
the reason i would use a cooked diode that worked in the 5-8 volt range was i could steal the energy being made by the circuit and not the battery..
i sure you have seen my cooked diodes in some of my videos.. i always put a small piece of blue heat shrink over the glass after i cook them so i dont confuse them with regular diodes..
robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on September 05, 2012, 08:51:35 PM

ROBBIE!!! Good to see you . I know all about those spacial diodes .I cook germaniums with barium t in the tops of can transistors to change the gain. where have you been dude.. Hey lets kill that jouleringer :) I have a theory that the coil is a delay line and in part the cap he used is depleted right at the start then the delay line coil has enuff storage to keep the transistor oscillating and then source recharged in a second by the CFL wire and repeated until the sloped voltage is to low to keep the bulb lit then the current stops flowing to the cap and it dies... Thoughts on it ?.you still got my number ? it is still the same . . And you hit the nail dead on . . you can buy 100 of something and only a few work . Exactly what i found and sure others experienced that . Even in Cores they are not exact in a batch.

Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on September 05, 2012, 10:25:32 PM

Hi Robbie

You have me wondering about what you have said....

"the reason i would use a cooked diode that worked in the 5-8 volt range was i could steal the energy being made by the circuit and not the battery..
i sure you have seen my cooked diodes in some of my videos.. i always put a small piece of blue heat shrink over the glass after i cook them so i dont confuse them with regular diodes..
robbie"

When you say "cook them" do you mean heating them in an oven or something similar? If so, at what temperature and how long?

Could you please expand on your knowledge gained so far, please :)

Thanks,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on September 05, 2012, 10:50:06 PM

hey gadget,
good seeing you .. been awhile. it is real good seeing you folks still working on things.. when i was messing with the first jouleringer that run on a cap.. right before my scope blew i noticed that all it was happening was the transistor was being abused.. when the transistor cut off the bemf volts exceeded the transistors volts rating and blew pass it back to the cap but since the current was so low it took alot longer to kill the transistor.. and with the cap across the resistor to base of transistor we got two pulses for one..
i have been thinking lately of doing something with these ul listed led bulbs, all of mine have small step down transformers in them.. like pulsing the trans in the bulb rather than hitting it with HV .. but thats just thoughts.. i haven't done anything lately hoping to get me some energy so i can work on things like this again..

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on September 05, 2012, 10:58:18 PM

Kooler
I thought that if I mentioned your name, you might take the bait. Ha! it worked. Good thing too.

I just fried my Exciters transistor, so I put another on, and like you said, the new one does not work as well. Good thing I buy them by the kilo. Should I toss that one in the oven_ might work better.
At least we know that a self runner is possible, I would still be into trying.
Good to hear from you.
NickZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on September 05, 2012, 11:59:29 PM

Quote from: Goat on September 05, 2012, 10:25:32 PM

When you say "cook them" do you mean heating them in an oven or something similar? If so, at what temperature and how long?

Could you please expand on your knowledge gained so far, please :)

Thanks,
Paul

hey goat,
the last time i cooked some semiconductors my wife made we do it on the grill.. she said if it isn't food don't put in the oven..
she got mad at me for cooking cdi boxes from atv's in the oven..
seems to me from the temp gauge on my grill outside the sweet spot was around 500f on the last batch .. i put them on a metal pan run for 8-10 mins..
i know thats not accurate numbers but it is a hit and miss game..

hey nick,
good to see you .. i never had a self runner or a overunity device if i could get it to run on a cap alone would be awesome.. alkaline battery will take voltage hit and store it better than a rechargable battery but alkalines are short live when charged a few times..
the reason i had long runs with a couple circuits is when a alkaline battery get low like 0.2 volts we think it is dead right.. but no it still has alot of current left in it.. all you have to do is trick the transistor in to thinking it still has over 0.5 so it can turn on the base and a little extra to saturate the collector and emitter..
alkaline battery has the current but no volts.....
the reason my batteries started leaking was from over use which i found out later is the same as over charging..
but with nicad rechargables over use will not cause leak just over charge will the same with nimk and ni-lon..
a good test to show is my solar lights outside by my sidewalk had rechargables but died so i put half dead alkaline back in them.. they will out do those rechargables.. light is brighter and runs longer but it dies in a month battery leaks out.. same thing in my circuit the alkaline that a small charge runs months were i could not get a rechargable to work at all.. theres no secrets with me just tricks of the trade ;)

i got alot of old stuff i need to shoot a video of.. you guys may find interesting .. maybe soon

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 06, 2012, 12:10:02 AM

Robbie:

Great to see you back over here. Cooking electronic components on the grill? There ought to be a book deal in there somewhere. It is great to have the inventor of the BWJT here once again. That one really took all of us in another direction. That is always what I have loved about this site....you never know who is going to post what, and which way the research will go. I still think there is something in that, as well as the old JT and other related stuff as well. It would be great to get a group of us working on it and see just how far we can take it this time. Cooking components....hmmm......I will try anything if there is a chance it will make something work better. I have one germanium transistor and a bunch of germanium diodes.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on September 06, 2012, 12:52:26 AM

hey bill,
great to see you again.. the same guy that showed me how to cook stuff also showed me something weird once he took a Americium tube out of a smoke detector and cooked it for 10 mins and then threw it in the freezer for 20 mins and pulled it out and hooked a split steel tube to one side and a small light bulb to the other and it lit brighter than if he used battery i said thats to dangerous for me to play with.. he said ah shit son it only alpha radiation.. i was like yeah only alpha radiation.. your crazy fool.. he said once you mod the the tube it doesn't emit radiation and it detects alot more than smoke too.. he was a good old guy he was 94 yrs old .. he died last year.. they called him my 2nd dad.. i don't know the temp he cooked it and i dont know how he wired it up so no one ask me or pm cause i won't say..
the link here may be similar to what he did.. http://thefutureofthings.com/articles/26/americium-power-source.html (http://thefutureofthings.com/articles/26/americium-power-source.html)

i hope everyone is doing good..
robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on September 06, 2012, 06:30:10 AM

Quote from: kooler on September 06, 2012, 12:52:26 AM
hey bill,
great to see you again.. the same guy that showed me how to cook stuff also showed me something weird once he took a Americium tube out of a smoke detector and cooked it for 10 mins and then threw it in the freezer for 20 mins and pulled it out and hooked a split steel tube to one side and a small light bulb to the other and it lit brighter than if he used battery i said thats to dangerous for me to play with.. he said ah shit son it only alpha radiation.. i was like yeah only alpha radiation.. your crazy fool.. he said once you mod the the tube it doesn't emit radiation and it detects alot more than smoke too.. he was a good old guy he was 94 yrs old .. he died last year.. they called him my 2nd dad.. i don't know the temp he cooked it and i dont know how he wired it up so no one ask me or pm cause i won't say..
the link here may be similar to what he did.. http://thefutureofthings.com/articles/26/americium-power-source.html (http://thefutureofthings.com/articles/26/americium-power-source.html)

i hope everyone is doing good..
robbie

Hey Kooler . Wheew .Thought you were taking my lead on oven baked germanium xsistors on dope :) I didn't think you would call me old man even though i feel like rigamortis in the morning :) That guy sounds like a fun guy to have known and learned from .
It's good to see you also . I know you got your hands full with the family and work. I really hope this winter we have some time to play . Mine is in 5th grade and i have a little time . I have no wife to rule my oven but if i did the same would happen .

hi Goat .nice you are here too! I think we got a gang again !

Nickz Thanks for sending out the Bat Signal !

BTW . I thought a Fuji Jellybean Jar Contest would be a cool thing for the new guys and to help get things in order . I know the member are dropping off from lack of interest and also from being bullied so maybe we can stir some interest and fun like we had before .

Ok just got the baby girl on the bus and coffee time .

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on September 06, 2012, 07:38:54 AM

Quote from: kooler on September 05, 2012, 10:50:06 PM
hey gadget,
good seeing you .. been awhile. it is real good seeing you folks still working on things.. when i was messing with the first jouleringer that run on a cap.. right before my scope blew i noticed that all it was happening was the transistor was being abused.. when the transistor cut off the bemf volts exceeded the transistors volts rating and blew pass it back to the cap but since the current was so low it took alot longer to kill the transistor.. and with the cap across the resistor to base of transistor we got two pulses for one..
i have been thinking lately of doing something with these ul listed led bulbs, all of mine have small step down transformers in them.. like pulsing the trans in the bulb rather than hitting it with HV .. but thats just thoughts.. i haven't done anything lately hoping to get me some energy so i can work on things like this again..

robbie

Yea see i could not get the dang transistors to hold up to the high voltage for longer than a few seconds and after blowing a dozen fugi and not seeing the effect it was discouraging then i thought of the delay line looking at his little circuit board clf running on that cap. I mean there is no bias resistor to protect the xistor only the coil and germaniums(first version replicated by LS) . Anyways i got a box of them now and am winding different coils different cores (coax) to help them retain some capacitance and try again . I 'll keep you all posted if interest is greater than one . It would be nice for everyone to have a steady variable to repeat some of these experiments including mine with standard methods . .
As far as batteries the alkaline especially are amazing but if anyone here ever tried recharging them time and time again ,with static kick volts they may have see what we did . Several times i was awoke in the early morn with loud pops only to fins a cooked battery splattered all over everything . They get hot and higher voltage than they were when they were fresh though with bemf volts . I found one brand of NIMH battery that exceeded them all . Yep the bunny battery really does keep going and going . all the other purple and green and off brands are not that dense as those .
one more thought . I already have cancer and cooking Americium sounds fun but i don't need that attention BUT americium is free and all the smoke detectors from the day have it . The possibility of harnessing the electricity from that element mixed with other minerals and metals is something i ponder on . No i doubt i will post about any such experiment nor will i try it. This guy had no wife either apparently .Haha http://www.geek.com/articles/geek-cetera/swede-attempts-to-build-nuclear-reactor-in-his-house-gets-arrested-2011083/ (http://www.geek.com/articles/geek-cetera/swede-attempts-to-build-nuclear-reactor-in-his-house-gets-arrested-2011083/)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on September 06, 2012, 09:21:06 AM

Speaking of radiation we are all at risk now that the Japan reactors are still in a meltdown condition . Notice how the News don't mention it anymore ? I want another better rad detector and kits are available at goldmine electronics . I really feel everyone should be given one in the us anyways . You would be surprised at the amount falling everywhere right now . Ever wonder why Salt is radioactive ? I have . Where does salt come from ? Salt flats in Nevada ? I am not taking this apart but you see the availability of Materials you can buy anywhere . This is an Americium reaction chamber in a first alert detector i need to vacuum . I bought this at walmart two years ago. and radium Marbles are very common on ebay too. Even Fiesta ware in orange is highly radioactive .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on September 06, 2012, 05:41:02 PM

I've got several of the alkaline D cells that I'm going to charge up with solar, and use them in the Jtc, or with the Exciters. Each one can hold 10.000mA, instead of the 600ma that I'm using now from the rechargeables. 4 of them is 40.000mA. I'll bet they'll take a bunch of charges before they leak.
Radiation huh? I hope that I don't start glowing in the dark. Did you know that alkaline batteries contain all kinds of goodies also, like cadmium, and mercury, and other toxic things. But, they sure work well.
Robbie, thanks for the info on the 5 month circuits, and "special diodes" procedure.
In the video you mentioned that one of the circuits uses a button cell, (lithium?), and the other one came out of a 9 volt battery, (alkaline?). Looks like one of the core was the yellow iron power ones not ferrite, even. If those two batteries didn't leak they would still be running.
If they weren't self runners, I don't know what it. Closest thing I've seen.

Curious thing how Dr. Stiffler mentions that his Infinity light is a "closed" Exciter system, but the 18x boards are not, they are open and absorbing ambient energy. But, my Exciters all drain their batteries.
Back to the drawing board for me...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on September 06, 2012, 06:21:20 PM

This topic is almost fun again!

;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 06, 2012, 09:25:51 PM

Quote from: stprue on September 06, 2012, 06:21:20 PM
This topic is almost fun again!

;D

I agree. Great to see you again. As I recall, you did a lot of work in this field and shared it This topic was what really made me love this site. I met so many smart, intelligent and helpful folks and learned more in a year than I could have at any school.

I hope we can all work on something to maybe recapture those early days. Very little flaming and a ton of experiments and info getting out to a lot of folks.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on September 06, 2012, 10:24:49 PM

@Bill . Thank you for the STAND you gave me . I really appreciate you and the guys there 4me and all the crap i may have cause in the past and in the future;)
@stpure @ Hi . remember you well sir . Now we got a Gang for sure .

While i am working on three projects i know you want me to give you that schematic of the rouge selfcharger light in the link for Nickz.I never provisional patented it because i could take it apart without destroying it . I honestly tried to take it apart months later and broke it in some spots . i talked with Alex then and was going to see if he could fix it but before i did after tedious microscope light loupes and magnifying i found some breaks in my or what i call my spiderweb coils . I don't know of anyone else that did that or have i ever read about them i just thought of it and did it . a spiderweb coil is a wadded bunches up mess of about 50 feet of very fine #38 enameled tesla wire in two sets . Of coarse glued with epoxy and let set to hold it . I believe i can replicate that schematic i never drew but is based on the original i did post somewhere in here . I dont have any copies of anything . i had two hard drive crashed one was the circuit board bad and i hunted for a replacement new hard drive with the exact same board . it worked . then a year later win 7 crashed after power brownout and i lost everything . the only thing at that time was to re coop some pictures and a valuable document . I was partially sucessful and the rest was gone . Before all that and i am still sick over it is a dang Cruser memory key gone and it contained everything . so . The only copies i got are on here and a notebook with the original one . I want you guys to have it so i will do my best to recreate it 4 you all to have . The thing is there is a l germanium transistor and i hope i wrote it down .They can be bought from ebay sometimes so that is my varable .Cant remember if its treated but i will try both ways . the feedback circuitry should be just caps i had laying around and i used ONLY germanium Diodes and i have the number for that one .also bead torroid i will have to buy more . I will work up a diagram as soon as i re replicate the device . I promise . Then you all decide if what you see is what you are all looking for and what i did . I owe it to you all and it is a priority of mine . I do feel your eyes on me and i dont fake a video. I might be a bit scatter brained and talk funny and slow and i hate the sound of my own voice.I am not a good talker . but still want you to see it for yourselves. Ok . I'm done 4 2nite been up since 5 am and i am shot . two doctor visits tomorrow and another one next week . Puke. blood,piss , ass reaming hell . At least i have a female doctor now :)

gadget
Gnite

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on September 07, 2012, 08:16:12 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on September 06, 2012, 09:25:51 PM
I agree. Great to see you again. As I recall, you did a lot of work in this field and shared it This topic was what really made me love this site. I met so many smart, intelligent and helpful folks and learned more in a year than I could have at any school.

I hope we can all work on something to maybe recapture those early days. Very little flaming and a ton of experiments and info getting out to a lot of folks.

Bill

Yes I was very active in this topic a while ago but life circumstances changed and I had no time to experiment for the past 2 years. I am planning on starting up again soon with some basic stuff. The lack of argument and the amount of pictures, diagrams and help available here by the old team as I call it was really what got this thread to over 1000 pages.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Sir Berman on September 07, 2012, 03:25:48 PM

Hi all,

I need some real help.
I want to make a circuit to continuously light a 13W CFL brightly from a duracell 9V battery (for longer life than the 1.5V).

I have tried a few online and they didn't work - not at all or very little light.

I looked at the fuji circuit but the new cameras have a different circuit layout then the pictures posted on the web.

If anyone can help me, please give me a complete schematic with all data labeled.
Also where to get the parts.

Thank you all

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on September 07, 2012, 06:04:33 PM

Sir Berman:
I doubt that going the 9 volt battery route will solve your duration time problem. As a 9 volt battery has much less power, 150mAh even when compared to the rechargeable 1.5 volt AA battery, which can have 2000mAh, or more. Even cheap regular 1.5 volt AAs have 600mAh, which is 4 times the current of a rechargeable 9 volt battery. Of course, the 9 volt will be a brighter light, but won't last longer.
Wireless phone 3.6 volt batteries work ok, and take a good charge fairly quickly, but also are low current batteries. My 3.6 volt batteries wireless phone batteries are 600mah and they will light a Cfl on my Exciter all night. D cell batteries have 10.000mAh, and can be charged, even though they are not rechargeable.
I just charged an old dead D cell (alkaline), on a solar panel, and was able to light a 65 watt Cfl on the Exciter circuit on just that one old D cell 1.5v battery. Of course it's not that bright, but better than using a brand New AA battery. I was able to charge the old dead D cell to 1.6 volts on solar, (and no leaks). 4 D cells have 40.000mAh. And you can use old dead ones and recharge them without having to buying new ones. Just don't let them get to hot. A Slow low charge is best. Solar garden lights work on those also. I got a garden solar light cell that outputs 4 volts. 40mA.
I can light my gutted or ungutter Cfls (even 65watt Lights of America Cfls) with the same or similar circuit as is now being shown on the last video posted on the home page of this OverUnity.com site, by Lynx Steam (Exciter circuit). You can make a much smaller exciter coil as I've done, using a one inch coil, with a ferrite rod inside. But, it won't be all that bright, maybe 1/4 brightness of the same Cfl bulb on 110v. Makes for a nice night light though, and maybe a little brighter than just a night light.
I'm also intersted in being albe to light Cfls to FULL brightness, as I have many of them, but it's not that easy to do.
Any ideas are welcome.
NickZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on September 07, 2012, 07:45:53 PM

Welcome Sir Berman !
I suggest to you the Joule Thief 101 thread located here http://www.overunity.com/8341/joule-thief-101/#.UEqG11JQDU0 (http://www.overunity.com/8341/joule-thief-101/#.UEqG11JQDU0) . There you can find information on HOW TO'S
And also http://www.overunity.com/10723/fuji-joule-thief-full-instructions-video-and-pics/#.UEqGoVJQDU0 (http://www.overunity.com/10723/fuji-joule-thief-full-instructions-video-and-pics/#.UEqGoVJQDU0) Which is where you can get help on camera flash units .

I prefer single cell projects so can't help you with 9 volt battery things. . It is UN-economical in my opinion . And
Nickz is also given very good information.

Your Goal is one that is obtainable but the power loss converting a 9 volt battery to meet the low volt requirements of camera flash units will drain it faster than just using 1.5 volts to start with . This is an example of what a little aa battery can do . (borrowed from jt101)
you need patience and some time .I listen to some winding music it helps me wind copper line . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JunmomMSK0&feature=related
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on September 07, 2012, 11:54:05 PM

so guys,
we going to build something and try to make self run.. what circuit should we try first.. theres only a hunderd slightly different ones in the jt thread
oh.. gadget i would say me seeing you talk of cooking thing years ago.. probably keyed me to try since i had it in my head already.. just don't cook in the microwave..
i have learned alot from you folks over the years..
what i always liked about the jt thread was there was no theoretical physicist going on in here..
just hard work..

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 08, 2012, 01:03:37 AM

Robbie:

Well, I had been thinking, (possibly incorrectly) that when attempting a self run device, we need diodes to keep the juice flowing in the desired direction. In other words....in a simple JT, instead of an led, I feed that back to the battery, how does the battery know which way I want the electricity to go? I am thinking it doesn't. Possible diodes on the positive and neg. lines going back to the battery might help with this? Just tossing it out there.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on September 08, 2012, 01:23:19 AM

Robbie:
Glad to hear that you're ready to go on this...
I think that we should start where you left off, and first replicate the BwJt circuit, or Hartley oscillator that you were using, but with an alkaline battery, as it's the one you feel would be the best bet. As you can see I've already got my alkaline battery charged up, but I was thinking to use a D cell size Duracell alkaline battery, although I've got AA size alkalines also, and some Ni-cad AA non-rechargeables also. The Hartley type oscillator, or BwJt? What diodes should be used? The IN4148 diodes, are what I've been using, what do you think? In the oven, or BBQ.
Nick

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on September 08, 2012, 01:49:09 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on September 08, 2012, 01:03:37 AM
Robbie:

Well, I had been thinking, (possibly incorrectly) that when attempting a self run device, we need diodes to keep the juice flowing in the desired direction. In other words....in a simple JT, instead of an led, I feed that back to the battery, how does the battery know which way I want the electricity to go? I am thinking it doesn't. Possible diodes on the positive and neg. lines going back to the battery might help with this? Just tossing it out there.

Bill

bill
the closest i have ever been was having one circuit feeding the other.. or should i say feeding each other.. it takes two batteries.. or two cap's.. i thought of it for awhile like splitting the positive.. when one circuit cuts off it get feed a charge pulse.. if not the pulse go in to the circuit and messes with the freq.. if you try to feed back the same freq on top of the same circuit you will need 3 times more OU to keep it afloat because while one will charge the second mess with timing and thrid will run the circuit.. while the second messes with the timing it will need the charge pulse to keep it going.. the other way is to feed a different freq from the output to source but it needs to be lower.. ex.. lets say the circuit runs at 5khz.. the feed back should come back to source at 400hz or lower so it would get canceled if trying to go back thur the circuit.. which is hard even using filters cause the lost of current needed to run in the start..

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on September 08, 2012, 02:05:05 AM

Quote from: NickZ on September 08, 2012, 01:23:19 AM
Robbie:
Glad to hear that you're ready to go on this...
I think that we should start where you left off, and first replicate the BwJt circuit, or Hartley oscillator that you were using, but with an alkaline battery, as it's the one you feel would be the best bet. As you can see I've already got my alkaline battery charged up, but I was thinking to use a D cell size Duracell alkaline battery, although I've got AA size alkalines also, and some Ni-cad AA non-rechargeables also. The Hartley type oscillator, or BwJt? What diodes should be used? The IN4148 diodes, are what I've been using, what do you think? In the oven, or BBQ.
Nick

nick i wouldn't bother wth cooking .. i just threw 23 germ diodes away yesterday trying make more.. i don't want people wasting money on old diodes even if i have a problem getting it right.. i trying to think of a possible work around.. maybe soon..

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on September 08, 2012, 02:53:50 AM

nick
something else i almost forgot was that one circuit it had a lr44 battery.. and i saw once were someone thought in a battery they said the volts come from pos and the current comes from negative.. so i had the special diode going from pos to neg.. it was because the pulses are on the pos side of the bwjt i made .. and they were send to the neg side to charge.. it was then i notice i could charge a battery from the neg or the pos side.. the old man i talked of earlier told me as long as there was pressure on one side or the other it would charge.. he also told me that if i applied enough pressure to a capacitor it would charge.. i sure wish i knew what he was talking about.. he was a big ed gray fan.. i went up to his old house two weeks ago to see if if wife would let go thur his stuff and she was gone and a sign in the yard for sale so i asked the guy next door and he said she died about 5 months ago and said the people that bought thur out everything to clean for resale.. i started cussing so bad he told me to get off his lawn or the law would be here soon.. it's been a bad year for me.. i wanted the motor the george had built years ago so bad.. all i know about the motor was it had three coils and two north facing magnets and two cap's and he could spin by hand it would run the whole time i was there.. he told me once that he couldn't it patent because it come back as something that already was patented..
well i been drinking and talking to much time for bed..

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on September 08, 2012, 03:29:02 AM

hey Guys . feel like Sheeeit from doctor abuse but i won't cry on your shoulder so just can't sleep sp . I wanna play too .
Just my three cents . you have to ask your self what is the minimum a transistor need to stay in oscillation . ok say 0.3 volts for silicon and less that 0.20 for germanium . i would use tiny components with the least amount of resistance . Ok so we feed a standard 2 coil jt 1.2 vdc . i also wind three extra secondary and we control frequency with the resistor pot cap configuration on the base as usually . ok now we have 4 points that produce voltage . the CE which will be a DC pulse current that we filter and clean up with electro caps and germanium . we can go both ways with this back to source and run an led . the other secondarys i have found if wound in different spots fire off at different frequency's due to the flux shifting inside the toroid so has to be compensated with our base electronics and the primary windings . two of the secondarys are wound in different directions while the third is matched to the Jt right side coil winding secondary (the original two coils that makes jt) ok so now we have two opposite wound coils that produce an ac and a third matched dc pulsed . with ac we use disk caps then electrolytics and then two germaniums to rectify and then a third diode to feed back to out positive source while the third secondary is pulsed dc we filter again with electrolytic and another germanium to the negitive of the source.
am i the only one that tried this ? Kooler does this make sense ? I believe this is what i did playing around on the rouge light and got the loop going . with just one jt .

I dont know yet . it's late and i need to reread this in the morning and see if i am coherent in my thoughts . but i sure its something i did like this . the flux from the toroid need to be at a certain frequency to fire off those other three secondary s while running led off transistor and also feeding back to the positive source . so three output are feeding the source . at least this is what i think i remember . Ill test it .

Gnite.

gadget

If this is too weird i will draw it up on paper soon anyways 4 you to examine so if you guys want to work on koolers previous b?jt project then count me in too .I need to build one anyways cause i didnt get a chance last time .

Morning:
reread the last few post and sounds like something very similar kooler .You explained it better than me though ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: wings on September 08, 2012, 05:48:08 AM

:)

Joule thief powering the LM386 audio Amp.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=AcMIMhVZukY# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=AcMIMhVZukY#)!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on September 08, 2012, 09:44:35 AM

very nice video Wings ! And perrfect demonstration of what a cap does in a jt output also .very good .
I got one uploading that is running a dc motor turning some "factory" My girl put together .

Hey Robbie. you might still be able to get up with the house cleaners who were hired by finding out who the Realtor was and have a mercy plea that it was something he wanted you to have .

I know this has been several years really hard for every one . Alone and no one ever comes out to visit so the forum is my friend . even got sick of facebook and all those "friends" never interacted so i told most of them l to go where the sun don't shine after years and years .didn't know them anyways . i'm a strange animal i always say /At least My daughter love's me and my junkets of stuff . mainly cause she wraps her life around me and those projects like the Nitinol air temp . She is taking some i made for her to school for share day next week and working on a presentation using those squishy blueice packs .

Al .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on September 08, 2012, 11:17:52 AM

http://youtu.be/4fRAybbw_lE (http://youtu.be/4fRAybbw_lE)

sorry it's side ways /

Joule Screamer runs lights plus 24volt dc heavy duty motor and turns factory made by "Asia" my 10 year old .
She wanted to Play with my rusty mecanno stuff and build like dad .

Good torque for volts that don't read more than 1.3 volts . This motor won't turn on one aa battery .Those are cylinder neo magnets on that flywheel . set to pulse about 1 or 2 per second .three day run time Approx. i hope to improve it later and it's probably nothing new under the sun but it was fun to see her make this and bring it to life with the screamer .

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on September 08, 2012, 02:10:45 PM

Hey Robbie ?
Can you share what you use to draw up those neat circuits with real parts . My Pencil drawing sucks . and i have to go and find another Electronic diagram Program cause i lost all that info on the Big computer .
I don't want to post it like this . It's chicken scratch .
Albert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on September 08, 2012, 02:49:50 PM

albert
i use ms paint .. and a bunch of small pic's of components i have in a folder.. i will attach it to this post if you want the pics i use..

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on September 08, 2012, 03:14:45 PM

Wow . Thanks Robbie . Quite ingenious . I could have swore you used a professional program . Very cool and thanks . I will work on the Chicken Scratch conversion .

Edit . Dang. I must be More Stupid . You were the professional program . I can't for the life of me figure out how to put them all in one background . they all open up separate and i cant Grab them;) SHhhhet
. I know there has to be a way but it looks like you got the talent in Pictorial parts diagrams and i Don't

O well they are cool though an d it must have taken you a while to collect them . thank you for em . I'll add some more .

Albert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on September 08, 2012, 03:39:57 PM

@Wings:
Nice video, thanks for sharing. It looks like a very practical use for a Jtc. Sounds great.

Robbie, I would still try to find out who cleaned that house out, and all the old guys stuff, by calling the realtor on the sign in front of the house. Maybe that motor still exixts and can be bought for cheap, as they probably don't know what to do with it. Tell them that it was your motor that you had loned it, and need it back.
Keep experimenting with the diodes, it can't be that difficult if you had already done it before. Maybe the BBQ is the secret, Ha!
I'm charging an old regular alkaline AA on solar now... I'll even try to charge some button cells backwards to see what happens.

Gadget: if you want to play, you've got to bring your own shovel and pail, the sand box is big enough for all of us, daughter too.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 08, 2012, 04:11:23 PM

Quote from: kooler on September 08, 2012, 02:49:50 PM
albert
i use ms paint .. and a bunch of small pic's of components i have in a folder.. i will attach it to this post if you want the pics i use..

robbie

Thanks Robbie, I just stole your file also. (copied) I too use paint and have the same problems Al was talking about. I have a small file of resistors, caps, etc. and when I try to add one to the picture, they all end up in there. Guess I need to play with it more as you all know my schematics, when I supply one, suck.

Bill

PS I attached a copy of symbols I got from Jesus way back when. he used these in his schematics.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on September 08, 2012, 05:30:39 PM

Hey Bill . I figured it out after i thought about it .... Copy and paste ..then you can grab them and move them around .In paint Underneath Paste there is a drop down "paste from" and select the pic and drop it on a clean background.Just make sure when you drop it thats where you want it to be because you can't move it again easily.

@Nickz . Oh I'm in the game . Drawing up a loop circuit from memory . Dare i say that word .101% ? Don't know yet.........

Gadget

Edit I already downloaded a tiny cad and only 1/3 the way finished :( >:( :-[
Just to give you an Idea of all the parts to put together My Chicken Scratches hieroglyphs only Aliens can read or me ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 08, 2012, 05:54:05 PM

Thanks Al. Yes, I remember using the "paste from" feature a while back. I just need to play with it some more. I was always so impressed with the drawings that folks were posting....and every time I asked what cad program they used to do it....they said..."paint". I couldn't believe it. Once again I learn something new from the smart folks here.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 08, 2012, 06:43:00 PM

Al:

Nice going. I just logged on here and saw your Joule Screamer running the electric motors video on the front page in the OU video presentation. Excellent. That is really cool.

Bill

Title: Jule Thief
Post by: Sir Berman on September 08, 2012, 08:00:49 PM

Hi all,

I tried the JT 101 and I couldn't get the transistor to put out more power. (I asked the guys on that page to help)

So.. I bought a Fuji Flash camera and took it apart.
I have attached the pictures.

As you can see the circiut is different that the one on this thread.
ANy thoughts on the modification for the CFL?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on September 08, 2012, 08:33:58 PM

Hello Sir Berman . No its exactly the same . It's a Fugi AAA 4th gen board . here is the mod .
Make sure you close the copper switch shut on the solder side of that board . and Make sure you discharge that cap with a. insulated screwdriver before messing with it .

The Lamp has to be popped apart at the base . I don't recall a video for that . you must remove the electronics from the lamp if using a screw-in CFL Spiral bulb .

Anyone else ?
gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on September 08, 2012, 09:04:48 PM

Thanks Bill . My daughter is ecstatic that her factory is on the front page :) How did it get there ? Anyways it's chugging along . Click CliCK CLICK ...
It's going to take me days to transfer that schematic to a usable readable copy . i need a break so . See you guys in a bit ..
one more quick note. When i get this schematic finished and tested and tuned i will no doubt be flamed ,maimed and tormented again . . Why ? Because the taught science of them have to explain away any possibility of something like this in terrestrial terms . They will no doubt leave any room for something other . so i know it's coming if we get it going .Just remember i told you . Hey and if it takes a while and some adjustments have to be made that ok too but i feel confident that this little group will be inspired with something . that is all for now .

Gnite .

L8r
Albert

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on September 09, 2012, 11:25:32 AM

I was thinking isn't it amazing how far we have come in just two years . In 2010 we heard about Electric paper and a quote from Smokey t"hat electric paper, is that the stuff they're using in those digital-paper-books?
-single sheet of paper that can hold hundreds of books..
you click on it like a touch-screen to turn the page. i saw one a few months back at a tech-show. they're pretty neat.
i imagine people carrying them around instead of big bulky books..
or kids in schools, with a single sheet of paper that holds all their texts. but we're probably still a long time away from that.."
Now we take have them in our pocket built right in our phones.And yes My Daughter's class this year all have i-pads in 5th grade.No more Blackboards and chalk only Flatscreens and touch pads and laser video projectors . I think they still have a small white board with some erasable markers though . soon to be the past .And if all the knowledge is stored in chips what happens when the largest EMP wipes them all clean.or worst hit by a gamma ray burst like the one that was discovered on Christmas in 2010 .... and now hundreds of them discovered . Like giant vaporizing lasers being shot every where and the range unlimited .
I also find it disturbing that we are all so easily distracted with a fake reality by the media to make our attention to facts . like the japan holycaust now and the pole shifting in march this year... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzu6Uphs3j0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzu6Uphs3j0)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on September 09, 2012, 12:58:32 PM

While surfing the internet I stumbled upon an interesting company called Touchstone Semiconductors. They seem to specialize in low power IC stuff. Below is a video I made confirming the basic capabilities. It's a cool little ct, but the main reason for posting this is in the hope to spark ideas in others. Maybe this could be incorporated into a JT in the battle to reach a selfrunner!

(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunityresearch.com%2FSmileys%2FAlive%2Fgrin.gif&hash=d98e2a49c72f4a03f33c404c6f7200ebe6d8b025)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsQSEobZJOM&list=UUy-jIqtOny6R0jK03qJN0sw&index=1&feature=plcp (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsQSEobZJOM&list=UUy-jIqtOny6R0jK03qJN0sw&index=1&feature=plcp)

and here is the company video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwjIshSF18E&feature=channel&list=UL (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwjIshSF18E&feature=channel&list=UL)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Sir Berman on September 09, 2012, 03:51:58 PM

ok..
not sure if it was a test - but the resisitor was a 100 ohm not a 1k ohm.

I put the jumper on the diode, took out the 100 ohm resistor and replaced it with a 5k ohm pot, cut off the super cap and took out the strobe light.
And soldiered the switch on the bottom.

I connected the battery and the red LED light came on.
I connected the CFL to where the super cap was and ..... it barly made any light at all.
I adjusted the pot - it had no effect on the light

Thanks but I don't think these is ever going to work for me.....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 09, 2012, 04:48:37 PM

Quote from: stprue on September 09, 2012, 12:58:32 PM
While surfing the internet I stumbled upon an interesting company called Touchstone Semiconductors. They seem to specialize in low power IC stuff. Below is a video I made confirming the basic capabilities. It's a cool little ct, but the main reason for posting this is in the hope to spark ideas in others. Maybe this could be incorporated into a JT in the battle to reach a selfrunner!

(http://www.overunityresearch.com/Smileys/Alive/grin.gif (http://www.overunityresearch.com/Smileys/Alive/grin.gif))

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsQSEobZJOM&list=UUy-jIqtOny6R0jK03qJN0sw&index=1&feature=plcp (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsQSEobZJOM&list=UUy-jIqtOny6R0jK03qJN0sw&index=1&feature=plcp)

and here is the company video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwjIshSF18E&feature=channel&list=UL (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwjIshSF18E&feature=channel&list=UL)

ST:

Great find.ï»¿ I know some folks have used the 555 timer for making a JT...I didn't like that approach as I always thought they wasted too much energy. This looks like another way to go. Free? Can't really go wrong with that now can we.
Bill

PS I ordered a sample.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on September 09, 2012, 04:53:32 PM

I agree Bill, especially if we use ultra low power fet/mosfets with this set up. We can then get the adjustable frequencies needed for resonance, which could lead to OU.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on September 09, 2012, 10:40:10 PM

old news

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Stumpy on September 10, 2012, 07:37:57 AM

I found these handy when starting my JT projects,
http://www.madscientisthut.com/Shopping/agora.cgi?cart_id=926438.26670&product=Energy%20Harvesting&xm=on

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on September 10, 2012, 08:09:52 AM

Does anyone have a schematic for a 555 timer joule thief?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on September 10, 2012, 06:16:28 PM

Quote from: stprue on September 10, 2012, 08:09:52 AM
Does anyone have a schematic for a 555 timer joule thief?

heres the best.. they even talk which will run on 1.25 volts
http://electroschematics.com/6754/led-driver-with-555-timer/ (http://electroschematics.com/6754/led-driver-with-555-timer/)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on September 10, 2012, 06:54:31 PM

Thanks Kooler, this helps. I may want to use the TS3001 to pulse a ferrite JT.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on September 10, 2012, 08:33:01 PM

Quote from: stprue on September 10, 2012, 06:54:31 PM
Thanks Kooler, this helps. I may want to use the TS3001 to pulse a ferrite JT.

5.2khz-90khz is the only freq to use in it.. but that would be good enough .. there less than 2 dollars a peice
i like the one resistor to set freq.. here for others to see.. datasheet http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/455936/TOUCHSTONE/TS3001.html (http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/455936/TOUCHSTONE/TS3001.html)

to buy= http://www.futureelectronics.com/en/technologies/semiconductors/analog/timer-circuits/Pages/7017728-TS3001ITD822TP.aspx?IM=0&source=googleps (http://www.futureelectronics.com/en/technologies/semiconductors/analog/timer-circuits/Pages/7017728-TS3001ITD822TP.aspx?IM=0&source=googleps)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on September 11, 2012, 08:01:23 AM

@ kooler

I actually already have a free demo board. I think my goal will be to mod it into a JT.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on September 11, 2012, 08:02:59 AM

Here is the into if you missed it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsQSEobZJOM&list=UUy-jIqtOny6R0jK03qJN0sw&index=1&feature=plcp (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsQSEobZJOM&list=UUy-jIqtOny6R0jK03qJN0sw&index=1&feature=plcp)

and here is the company video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwjIshSF18E&feature=channel&list=UL (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwjIshSF18E&feature=channel&list=UL)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on September 11, 2012, 09:35:43 AM

Nice find there for free . I like this one it runs on as little as 20micro volts and steps up the voltage to 5 volts ..all in one chip you would need a dip socket converter holder for it to convert it to a big pinout DIP socket because it is also a micro surface mount . i have one for the chip Alex(GROUNDLOOP) used in the circuit board for my older project . it also is a sub micro up converter that takes micro volts and converts it up to 5 volts . so basically it's possible to run other chips that require 5 volts off off of a source of 20mv . you could run an led off of 20micro volts with these chips or store the voltage in super caps and batteries for later use .i can see clearly that a loop device is so very easy with these chips . . and you know that 20 microvolts is easy to obtain . Even the human body's electricity could possibly produce 20 mv from your fingers . You every checked your voltage? try it with a meter . if you have a non powered analog meter that has microvolts proves it but also a GOOD digital meter will show some voltage on your hands if you hold the probes in your two hands .you know you have a good digital multimeter if your meter won't pass any of it's voltage to the tip leads . you can check this with another meter .meter to meter . We have truly amazing bodies that are ran by electricity . Our every cell runs on electricity or any living creature to think or move and grow .

http://www.linear.com/product/LTC3108 (http://www.linear.com/product/LTC3108)

and the surface mount to DIP adapters here: http://www.adapt-plus.com/products/adapters/prod_soldip.html (http://www.adapt-plus.com/products/adapters/prod_soldip.html)

you need a steady hand to solder those chips to that adapter . I can do it . things you will need are a magnifying light and a small tip temperature controlled soldering station .

Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on September 11, 2012, 10:31:03 AM

And i want to tell you one more thing i hope gets buried in this big ass thread . Me and my Brother are one of the very few in the world to have touched the moondust covered Neil Armstrong suit .well we had these white disposable covered over suits on . The only precautions at that time were we put on white booties and covered your body and hair in disposable coveralls and a hair net thing (didn't like that cause i was a hippy) ,then you go in a glass door sealed cleaner room and air blows the hell out of you and you are exposed to High UV BLUE LIGHT . then after that you go thru a second air blowing chamber UV automatic sliding glass door section and it opens then you are in the area where the science was preformed . I remember it well . Thats right back in the 60's there was no security like there is now . We were actually in the room with the three space suits hanging there and tables full of moon samples and we touched the dust covered space suits from the moon landing apollo 11 . AND we both have a piece of the apollo 13 capsule given to us. A technician was working inside it in big ass hanger and we we given a piece of it aked by our uncle(he ain't going to like this) . The old NASA had junked space capsules in the back parking lot and all kinds of crap from space just laying around and i guess later junked . .it was a cool experience i will never forget .And if someone shows up asking questions about it we don't have it anymore. it's gone lost years ago in the 7 or more moves we made....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on September 11, 2012, 10:45:16 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on September 11, 2012, 09:35:43 AM
Nice find there for free . I like this one it runs on as little as 20micro volts and steps up the voltage to 5 volts ..all in one chip you would need a dip socket converter holder for it to convert it to a big pinout DIP socket because it is also a micro surface mount . i have one for the chip Alex(GROUNDLOOP) used in the circuit board for my older project . it also is a sub micro up converter that takes micro volts and converts it up to 5 volts . so basically it's possible to run other chips that require 5 volts off off of a source of 20mv . you could run an led off of 20micro volts with these chips or store the voltage in super caps and batteries for later use .i can see clearly that a loop device is so very easy with these chips . . and you know that 20 microvolts is easy to obtain . Even the human body's electricity could possibly produce 20 mv from your fingers . You every checked your voltage? try it with a meter . if you have a non powered analog meter that has microvolts proves it but also a GOOD digital meter will show some voltage on your hands if you hold the probes in your two hands .you know you have a good digital multimeter if your meter won't pass any of it's voltage to the tip leads . you can check this with another meter .meter to meter . We have truly amazing bodies that are ran by electricity . Our every cell runs on electricity or any living creature to think or move and grow .

http://www.linear.com/product/LTC3108 (http://www.linear.com/product/LTC3108)

and the surface mount to DIP adapters here: http://www.adapt-plus.com/products/adapters/prod_soldip.html (http://www.adapt-plus.com/products/adapters/prod_soldip.html)

you need a steady hand to solder those chips to that adapter . I can do it . things you will need are a magnifying light and a small tip temperature controlled soldering station .

Al

Good stuff Gadget! Start off small to prove the FE concept and then develop something substantial!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on September 11, 2012, 11:46:51 AM

@stprue . It is an amazing little chip .Also if anyone is interested in radiation detection i will start another thread under this one to make a sensitive Geiger counter with a Disposible Camera Circuit and a Cheap Geiger tube you can buy off Ebay?

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 11, 2012, 08:02:08 PM

I received an e-mail from those folks...my free board has shipped! I am looking forward to playing with it.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on September 11, 2012, 08:28:43 PM

@Pirate

Nice to have you on board. I will be on vacation for the next 1.5 weeks, but I would like to help out testing this device so please let me know if I can help in any way. I will be more than happy to assist. I think we should try to hook it up to a JT to up the voltage spikes to light LEDS. If this works good we can try to use a voltage divider to back feed some output spikes to the source.

Just a few ideas but, what do you think?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on September 11, 2012, 08:30:48 PM

I'm having fun again.....I think we need to take over this thread again!

;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on September 11, 2012, 09:13:00 PM

Free?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 11, 2012, 10:01:04 PM

ST:

Thanks. I will need all of the help I can get....I am not good with these board type circuits at all. Yes, a JT is what I was thinking as well. I really like the adjustments that we can make with this set-up...and the low energy draw. I am also working on a feedback circuit for a very small motor/generator circuit using a JT and a single supercap. Very early days on that one.

Gadget:

Yes, when you go to the link posted, go to the order page and at the bottom there is a place to click for free samples. I only asked for one but...who knows....? This seems to be the type of product where they want to sell thousands and will not sell 1 or 5 or 10....kind of like the 3.5 inch toroids I got. They would not sell me less than 1,000 units but they sent me 4 of them for free....and free shipping too. I love free stuff to play with.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on September 11, 2012, 10:07:55 PM

hey thanks Bill Heck yea free is GOOD!!. i will try and get two cause the board looks like it will hold the little chip i linked too . we will see . Im in the game anyway also .

Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 11, 2012, 10:14:43 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on September 11, 2012, 10:07:55 PM
hey thanks Bill Heck yea free is GOOD!!. i will try and get two cause the board looks like it will hold the little chip i linked too . we will see . Im in the game anyway also .

Al

They ask you for a company....I said "Pirate Labs". They asked why I wanted this....i said...."We are doing research in blocking ocillators." It shipped the next day. All totally true of course.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Stumpy on September 11, 2012, 10:52:58 PM

These are free.. http://touchstonesemi.com/free-demo-board
So i got one board and 6 chips, no problem at all :)
Said I was making a motor, and they shipped to Australia.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on September 11, 2012, 10:53:53 PM

Cool . I have a registered business name in my county called Electronics Specialties .and always order as a company. Good info Bill to pass along .
thanks
5am comes early so cuall l8r / I am going to order before i sleep ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sameenaryan on September 11, 2012, 10:59:50 PM

Awesome forum once again. Thank you;)
Bizhub C350 Imaging unit (http://allimagingsupplies.com/)
Oce Copier Supplies (http://allimagingsupplies.com/)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 11, 2012, 11:15:03 PM

Al:

Don't thank me...thank STPRUE, he is the one that posted the links and found this device. I believe this will take us all in another direction...which is good. I love to learn but I have to learn by doing....even if it's wrong. You can adjust the duty cycle in these things....something we would really have to work at with the old JT circuit. We can hit resonance easily I think. I have a scope and have to re-learn how to use it. (not that I really knew in the first place) This will be fun.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on September 11, 2012, 11:26:54 PM

hey Stprue thanks for the head up and did you see that they also have the Ts1002 free board. With a few parts they have a schematic to make a self powered energy harvester with that one . so i asked for it and the 3001 . see what happens tomorrow i guess .. phone call ?.

Energy harvester will rectify a tiny current and store it in an ultra cap or super cap .runs on 1ua stored from a small cap and i see this using clear leds as replacement for the pin cells input

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on September 12, 2012, 01:10:27 PM

Ok heres the Circuit . I have not tested it yet . and the symbols i had are not correct for the the toroid . there are 5 separate windings . When i built it originally this all fit inside that little three led stick up lights . they have three battery compartments in them . all the parts were small and i used a bead barrel as the core . I used #38 wire .I have two spools one #36 the other #38 .I will try both as well as #26 on a goldmine ring. If you just want to take my schematic and save it thats ok by me .
Corrections might be needed as i don't have a circuit simulator anymore .If some one can run a tint cad file let me know . I am waiting for an order to come in for some parts . I guess this can work on the goldmine 5/1$ toroid and maybe use any wire . parts list can be anything you got laying around . I know i used germanium diodes on all those and small pf disk caps and tiny electrolytic but any size might work . i know the primary coil is Litz and join two opposite ends.this is the main stage of a Jt except i combined the two Litz so they are wound the same way .11 turns.. there are three separate secondary . two are around 22 turns . one is wound clockwise the other counter clockwise . the last winding is 11 turns on top of the original primary litz .cannot remember if it was wound in the other direction or same . . Need to put it together . .. thats about all for now. . As soon as i get some parts in i can try this out on several transistors i got laying around . The pots were 10k
Gadget Loop test 1 Experiment . the goal is to light a light and feed the transistor just enough to keep it in oscillation without any loss in a battery . alkaline works good but nicad don't. Nimh is preference i use nimh Eveready . they are about 1.25 volts .i can try Dead batteries around a half a volt for starters on this one and should detect an increase if it is working . .This is just an early release for proto board only .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 12, 2012, 11:57:28 PM

I got my shipment in today and...I am disappointed. I wanted the entire board like shown in ST's video and the company's video but, I guess I plugged in the wrong part number because all I got was a very small piece of something I can not identify. I already wrote to them and I will pursue this further. I can't really complain too much as it is free, with free shipping and the mistake was probably mine. I will keep you all posted.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 13, 2012, 12:00:42 AM

Quote from: Stumpy on September 10, 2012, 07:37:57 AM
I found these handy when starting my JT projects,
http://www.madscientisthut.com/Shopping/agora.cgi?cart_id=926438.26670&product=Energy%20Harvesting&xm=on (http://www.madscientisthut.com/Shopping/agora.cgi?cart_id=926438.26670&product=Energy%20Harvesting&xm=on)

Stumpy:

That is a great site. I did not realize that anyone was selling JT boards ready to go. The price is very reasonable too. I really like this, thanks for posting it.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on September 13, 2012, 07:47:46 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on September 12, 2012, 11:57:28 PM
I got my shipment in today and...I am disappointed. I wanted the entire board like shown in ST's video and the company's video but, I guess I plugged in the wrong part number because all I got was a very small piece of something I can not identify. I already wrote to them and I will pursue this further. I can't really complain too much as it is free, with free shipping and the mistake was probably mine. I will keep you all posted.

Bill

Crap i hope i ordered the right things . I clicked on free demo boards link and where is said product i put TS 3001 and TS 1002 . http://touchstonesemi.com/free-demo-board (http://touchstonesemi.com/free-demo-board) I got a fex ex 1 day shipping notice email . Should be here today .Got Another doc Appt so i might miss him .DiD you have to sign for it?

Edit : Yea . They sent me three different boards and 9 chips of the different boards .. wow i only asked for TS3001 and TS1002 ,, they sent those plus TS1004 and three chips of each extra . I bet you could order every board they got . Lickety Split Fed-ex overnight // tax write off?

Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 13, 2012, 09:51:43 PM

Mine came via US mail. last night I went back to the site and, this time I clicked on the experimental boards link. last time, I just put 3001 as the part number. I also asked for the other board like you did Al. I have not heard anything back as yet but....I'll bet they send them. Turns out it was my error....just as I suspected.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on September 13, 2012, 10:15:01 PM

i hope i get mine.. i order them 3 nights ago and have heard nothing from them.. i ordered the ts3002 i want the extra freq..
stprue
have you done any thing cool with yours yet..

i'm waiting some parts i ordered so i can shoot a video of a circuit that i had in my notes..
i fried a crap load of transistors and fets and ic's.. when i was playing with a induction coil i built last year as soon as i saw sparks shooting from components laying on the table i cut it off only to find i fried everything on the table that is made of steel.. i'm so stupid to have a steel table.. my induction coil is so powerful i had the coil in transmission fluid.. normal hv wire will not insulate it..

gadget you want me to try to make a schematic of the circuit you posted with components pics and stuff in paint..

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 13, 2012, 10:20:27 PM

Robbie:

I received a notification that Louise Wong (customer service) was out of the office Wed. and Thurs. She is the one that e-mailed me the first time to say my part was on the way. I am thinking you will be hearing from her, or someone, tomorrow.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on September 13, 2012, 11:28:12 PM

bill
thanks for the info.. i was starting to wonder.. what you going to try your board on..
i'm going to try solar i got some 0.5 volt panels that are 2 amps.. i dont think this chip will go far but will be fun to play with..

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 13, 2012, 11:32:58 PM

Robbie:

I have a 3.5 " dia. toroid laying around left over from the Jeanna Circuit days. I might try to hook up to that and play with the parameters and see if I can hit resonance and see how it does. After that....who knows?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on September 13, 2012, 11:57:01 PM

what ever happened to jeanna.. i miss some of the great minds we once had..

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 14, 2012, 12:06:07 AM

Last I heard from Jeanna, she was moving way out into a small place in the woods where the internet does not run. She was buying some property and I don't even think there are any cell towers near by.

Yes, I miss that too.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on September 14, 2012, 07:30:15 AM

Hey kooler . Sure if you have a component proto board and are able to make sure the elec caps and germaniums are in the circuit the correct way. you can tell if you get those two positive out and two negatives out . i got the ts 002 board because of its self power culpability . It can be a first stage current amp . I got mine fed ex . I told them in the product uses would be Study Precise timing signals and ultra low energy harvesting applications for storage .I guess it sounded like i had a mission.

Hey Bill Cool and then we can build this . I showed a simple circuit off the touchstone site for the application for the ts 1002 or ts1001 or ts 1004 .
According to Touchstone, the TS1002 and TS1004 are the industry's first and only dual and quad single-supply, precision CMOS operational amplifiers fully specified to operate at 0.8V while consuming less than 0.6ÂµA supply current per amplifier. They are designed to cut power requirements at least in half compared to any other amplifier, the company said.
The TS1002 and the TS1004 are optimized for ultra-long-life, battery-powered applications,

Not feel good today and doc had some more bad news so i need to slow down a bit today.

Jeanna in the woods with no phone? She need to get her Amateur radio Licenses .. Before Internet was invented i Used high powered fm 2meter and 440 meter band radio transceivers with a packet controller connected to a computer . I helped test and invent the TCP protocol that is used today in our wired Internet . We had radio Internet and BBS file sharing and site log ons way before a 2400 baud modem on a phone line . Still do have packet which now is just like a high speed connection via Ham radio worldwide without the wires ...It also has connections to wired telephones as cell does . She won't have to learn Morse code like i did because the now have made it easy to get one on those frequency's and run a packet station and have telephone auto patch .the radios and packet controllers are battery powered 12 volts .
i Still have all my equipment and the packet controller is upgraded easy by reprogramming a chip .my Station call sign KB4Tww has to renewed again in 2015. In case of an event or emergency it is my responsibility to set it all back up for emergency communications and relay repeater signals . I also have Hf high powered tube radios that can talk anywhere in the world to any point with just a wire Ariel antenna i can shoot up trees with a bow and arrow .With the new NO-CODE easy licenses you get all that capability .The advantage of learning code is More Frequency's and easy r renewal process . Mine is every 10 years and just a form and a fee mailed in. . I can Decipher 5 words per minute morse code which at that time was a requirement for me to get one along with a big book on radio signal propagation .It is not that complicated now.

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on September 14, 2012, 10:17:28 AM

Gadget:
Good to hear the information on the ham radio tie in to telephone, or internet.
We had to use cb radios where I live here for about 10 years as there was nothing else, until we bought the telephone central and had it installed for the first 36 phone lines.
We may have to rely on those measures like cb radios again in the future.

kooler: Any news of the special diodes or other methods for the self-runner?
John Bedini tried to get the Hartley oscillators working on very low draw, but didn't have much luck. He wanted me to try something along those lines, but he couldn't get it working right himself.

Here's a picture of the Pc board of one of my solar garden lights. Notice that there is no transistor, or toroid, just an axial inductor, three small caps, a resistor, two diodes, and several candle light colored leds. It had 4 or 5 leds originally. Other garden lights that I have use two transistors, but this one has none, and works with several leds. So, there's more improvements on them all the time. I got a bunch of these garden lights for free.
Along with the solar panels (pic).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on September 14, 2012, 10:29:16 AM

Quote from: NickZ on September 14, 2012, 10:17:28 AM
Here's a picture of the Pc board of one of my solar garden lights. Notice that there is no transistor, or toroid, just an axial inductor, three caps, a resistor, a diode, and several candle light colored leds. It had 4 or 5 leds originally. Other garden lights that I have use two transistors, but this one has none, and works with several leds. So, there's more improvements on them all the time. I got a bunch of these garden lights for free.
Along with the solar panels (pic).

nick, i think if you turn that board over, on the back you will find a small rounded raised black disc. that would be the transistor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on September 14, 2012, 10:47:33 AM

Wilby:
Good observation. The transistor is on the back left hand corner.
thanks,
Nick

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on September 14, 2012, 10:53:12 AM

Quote from: NickZ on September 14, 2012, 10:47:33 AM
Wilby:
Good observation. The transistor is on the back left hand corner.
thanks,
Nick

i thought you might find one ;) i would have been VERY interested in it had it had no transistor :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on September 14, 2012, 10:58:16 AM

I was very interested, as I did not think to look on the back for it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on September 14, 2012, 03:52:57 PM

Quote from: NickZ on September 14, 2012, 10:58:16 AM
I was very interested, as I did not think to look on the back for it.

I can see at least five other semi conductor devices on your circuit board, look at the small three legged ones.
Some of the latest solar powered garden stick lights also have even less! using encapsulated devices which appear as circular black epoxy blobs! Can provide various control functions from flashing effects to multi colour modes.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on September 14, 2012, 04:10:52 PM

Quote from: crowclaw on September 14, 2012, 03:52:57 PM
using encapsulated devices which appear as circular black epoxy blobs!

that's what i was talking about. thanks for the better description! they are usually about the diameter of a dime and maybe a little taller than a dime. i see those a lot now on garden lights, etc.

for what it's worth, here is what one looks like...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on September 14, 2012, 04:44:11 PM

That got me thinking so I took a picture of my motion lights pcb that use the solar panel I had shown earlier, and lights 5 leds. That circuit uses 5 AA batteries. Here is what that pcb looks like, there is nothing on the back of this one, no blobs, or components.
Is that a 555 circuit that these are using??? I looked at it, but it does not say anything like 555 or similar. It is mounted on a removeable type of socket. If so, maybe it can be used elsewhere...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on September 14, 2012, 04:46:13 PM

Quote from: NickZ on September 14, 2012, 04:44:11 PM
That got me thinking so I took a picture of my motion lights pcb that use the solar panel I had shown earlier, and lights 5 leds. That circuit uses 5 AA batteries. Here is what that pcb looks like, there is nothing on the back of this one, no blobs, or components.
Is that a 555 circuit that these are using??? I looked at it, but it does not say anything like 555 or similar. It is mounted on a removeable type of socket. If so, maybe it can be used elsewhere...

my magic 8 ball says 'probability is good'... ;) looking at the visible traces and the positions on the resistors i would say yes, it's a 555.
is it chinese? they like to copy IC's and leave them blank.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on September 14, 2012, 05:14:56 PM

Even with a magnifier I can't read the print on it well enough to copy it, but it is not written in Chinese, nor does it say 555 anywhere. I like the use of the socket that it plugs into, it's easy to use on some other circuit, as I have several of these, and don't need them all.
Sometimes it's just easier to use these types of ready made boards, instead of taking hours, or days to make or design the same or something similar oneself.
Even Dr. Stiffler had mentioned that China made a "knock off" of one of his SEC circuits.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on September 14, 2012, 08:49:56 PM

yup. start teaching your kids or grandkids chinese... they have more honor students than we have students, it's coming.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 14, 2012, 09:38:20 PM

Heard from Louise Wong that both of my boards have shipped! I got both the 01 and the 02. (The entire boards this time)

All of my garden light Chicom JT circuits are of the black blob variety. A single resistor and the black blob....that is it.

This should be fun since you guys seem to know how I can use these boards.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: synchro1 on September 15, 2012, 11:10:15 AM

2 bifilar Jule Thief coils twisted into a spiral air core torus will output inverted A.C current from the secondary coil at twice the voltage of the pulsed D.C input to the primary. Two skiens of Radio Shack 2 wire speaker wire works well for this kind of A.C. Jule Thief Quadfilar.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on September 15, 2012, 11:41:21 PM

i heard from the company yesterday so it looks like i will be getting one of the 3002 boards and a bunch of other stuff i didn't need.. the more the better i think..

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Billxx on September 16, 2012, 10:30:10 AM

Thanks guys for posting the lead to the sample TS3001/TS3002 PWM boards. I plan to interface these to the joule ringer circuit with the fuji transformer to see what extended battery time can be added. Next, I plan to use the "Yellow Transformer", I found in an old RAY-O-VAC Magnum flasher/lantern, in the circuit to see how that works. Thanks to b_rads for posting a link in the Joule Ringer thread about using that transformer config. I think LaserSaber's idea of a bifiler primary on a transformer and wiring it in a joule thief configuration might have possibility?

I'm new so I have a thirst for input and it's like a sponge. :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: engpjk on September 16, 2012, 11:33:54 AM

Quote from: nievesoliveras on January 10, 2009, 07:55:00 AM
@all

A year ago I was experimenting with solar panels and found this photo on one instructable from http://instructables.com (http://instructables.com)
It has the electronics hidden inside that icebox and a lamp shinning over it that made it self runner. I could not replicate it though.

Jesus

Hi,

I know that this post was made a long time ago. Searching a very large number of instructables pages failed to locate the article mentioned. I would be very interested in seeing that article, so if anyone still happens to have a copy of the pdf, I would be most grateful to receive a copy (engpjk@gmail.com).

Thanks,

Patrick

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on September 16, 2012, 02:27:30 PM

@kooler Hey did you get any 1001 boards . have an interesting idea for self powered gen . Need to couple it with Tesla idea in place of the OSC.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: engpjk on September 16, 2012, 02:46:48 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on September 16, 2012, 02:27:30 PM
@kooler Hey did you get any 1001 boards . have an interesting idea for self powered gen . Need to couple it with Tesla idea in place of the OSC.

Hi,

If you are thinking of using the circuit shown, then please be aware that the area of the metal plate is very important as it needs to be big (aluminium foils is ok covered with cling-film) and the plate(s) needs to be high up, say 30 feet minimum, and all wire and joints need to be insulated.

Patrick

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on September 17, 2012, 05:32:18 PM

yes Patrick . This is only for advanced builders that realize that Lightning lives up there too . You need spark gaps etc . for you antennas as the real working height should be around 80 feet suspended in trees with Hv insulators and grounding gaps from your circuits as they will get hit .you don't need that Plate ,wire will do . It is recommended to put another antenna up higher and ground it directly to give lightning a path to least resistance.

You should read here for the full instructions and precautions needed before you attach an Aerial. you can see an effect just 8 feet up with a very long grounding rod in wet dirt . http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Chapt7.html (http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Chapt7.html)

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 17, 2012, 08:01:41 PM

Well, i got my 02 board today. I had asked for both the 01 and 02 but I also got more of those little bat-wing type small things that I have no idea what they are. I do not see a chip on my board nor anywhere to put one? I have no idea what to do with this. I will try to take some photos later and post them.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on September 17, 2012, 08:27:53 PM

got my ts3002 board today so it's off to try it out.. they sent me three more chips so small if i drop it in the floor i probably would never find it..

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 17, 2012, 08:32:47 PM

Quote from: kooler on September 17, 2012, 08:27:53 PM
got my ts3002 board today so it's off to try it out.. they sent me three more chips so small if i drop it in the floor i probably would never find it..

robbie

Robbie:

Is that what those tiny boomerang shaped things are? They have 3 small dots on them. If those are chips, I see no way to mount it to the board...there is no socket or anything that even comes close to matching up with the little giizmos I got.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on September 17, 2012, 08:47:10 PM

believe it or not but they can be soldered. I have soldered similar chips in tight quarters . It takes a steady hand ,lighted microscope magnifier and a small 7-15 watt pin tip soldering iron .. they should have 10 legs on them.there is other ways to set them in their Die like robots and solder baths .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on September 17, 2012, 09:08:58 PM

heres a pic of a bat 46 diode beside the chips

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 17, 2012, 09:16:32 PM

Robbie:

The three devices they sent me (they call occilators) look nothing like that. There is nothing on my board that looks like what you have posted. I will have to take some photos.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on September 17, 2012, 10:58:06 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on September 16, 2012, 02:27:30 PM
@kooler Hey did you get any 1001 boards . have an interesting idea for self powered gen . Need to couple it with Tesla idea in place of the OSC.

hey man,
i have done a very similar deal once with my shop roof.. its steel and 120 feet long it give me alittle over 6 volts it took 3 weeks to charge a AA battery.. to were it held a charge.. the 6 volts was after a voltage multiplier..
it would be nice to find a way to make a higher voltage then try to use it..
i didn't get any 1001 boards i was so excited to get something for free.. i just got one demo board.. ;D

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 18, 2012, 12:46:42 AM

Here is my demo board. (3002) I also now have three A 1V/1uA Ext R&C Silicon Oscillator/Timer TDFN22EP-8 (from packing list)

I do not see a chip on my board or any way to mount the ones sent. Does anyone know? I feel like an idiot.

Bill

PS The packing list calls each of those 3 items a quantity of 3 each for a total of 9. Do they come apart or something?
STPrue, did you get something that looks like these things?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on September 18, 2012, 06:09:24 AM

It's there Bill . that little black square is your baby! It is UI.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Billxx on September 18, 2012, 10:52:02 AM

Pirate,

That's the sample board and sample surface mount chips I received. I plan to interface it to the joule ringer circuit using a 'NPN' transistor hooked up to the 'PWM_OUT' on the board. One of those chips is mounted on the board at 'U1'.

Title: Strobe Effect JT?
Post by: b_rads on September 18, 2012, 12:03:03 PM

Hope this is not a silly question, went to the dollar store and purchased a light that goes inside a pumpkin. This light has three LEDâ€™s that turn on and off, one after the other giving a strobe effect. Runs off 2 AAâ€™s so I had to take it apart to see what makes it run. Absolutely no components to the circuit except the black blob (like the ones seen on solar light circuits) where the board runs the connections from the LEDâ€™s, and power into this central spot. Anyone have any idea what the component might be driving this and could it possibly run from a JT. Would be fun to build a multi light low power stobe. Any help is appreciated. Can post pictures later, but doubt that would help identifying part.

Brad S :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on September 18, 2012, 03:35:01 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on September 18, 2012, 12:46:42 AM
Here is my demo board. (3002) I also now have three A 1V/1uA Ext R&C Silicon Oscillator/Timer TDFN22EP-8 (from packing list)

I do not see a chip on my board or any way to mount the ones sent. Does anyone know? I feel like an idiot.

Bill

PS The packing list calls each of those 3 items a quantity of 3 each for a total of 9. Do they come apart or something?
STPrue, did you get something that looks like these things?

Hi Bill, these are SMD devices (surface mount devices) and are normally supplied on production run spools similar to the old 7" reel to reel tape recorder reels. As samples they have been cut into small strips. This technique is modern day high speed-high mass production of course. The circuit boards are first solder pasted using a stencil, next a robot 'pick and place' machine selects the smd components from a programmed menu and places each device onto the circuit board. Later the boards are fed into a multi heated oven where the paste melts to form the finished soldered joints. The whole process is vertually automatic turning out several thousand completed boards per hour. Very small high density circuit boards now form the basis of nearly all electronic assemblies... mobile phones being typical. You can work with many SMD components though using a miniature tipped iron, fine grade solder and a bottle of liquid flux! Lastly worth mentioning, when ordering sample parts... check if they can supply IC's as conventional dip leaded devices rather than surface mount when requesting samples, and always state for prototype project development when ordering. Kind regards Merv

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 18, 2012, 07:43:20 PM

Bill, Gadget, Brad and Crowclaw:

Thanks guys. So, U1 is the chip. I am wondering why they sent me these other chips then? I guess they have different values and such but, there is no way I am removing the one from the board, ha ha. I am pretty good at soldering under a microscope but man, this is a whole new animal to me. Ah, progress....I guess it pays to keep up with it. I knew you guys on here would know all about this.

Thanks again all.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on September 18, 2012, 10:55:51 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on September 18, 2012, 07:43:20 PM
Bill, Gadget, Brad and Crowclaw:

Thanks guys. So, U1 is the chip. I am wondering why they sent me these other chips then? I guess they have different values and such but, there is no way I am removing the one from the board, ha ha. I am pretty good at soldering under a microscope but man, this is a whole new animal to me. Ah, progress....I guess it pays to keep up with it. I knew you guys on here would know all about this.

Thanks again all.

Bill

Hi Bill . yes they also sent me 9 chips . three are 4 times bigger .They do make a SMD to Dip adapter if we ever need to put those chips to use but heck looks like a go with what we got mounted and well the cost ,Nil.. Lets see where this goes .I'll start playing around with them feeding signals in the base of a running Jt and then we will go from there .. That is where our free energy will come from . A shot in the dark. Also a good book to have is Practical oscillator handbook .. get it here . http://dc357.4shared.com/download/oMu6hBSS/practical_oscillator_handbook_.pdf?tsid=20120914-011955-27d17b

Al

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 18, 2012, 11:11:31 PM

Al:

Thanks. I just downloaded that book and I will read it. I have an old Jeanna's circuit 3.5" toroid already wound in tr-filar configuration. I would like to hook the board up to that and play with the parameters a bit. This should be fun.

Bill

***EDIT*** Wow! I just started reading that handbook and am on page 14 of 256 pages!!!! Just the table of contents made my head spin. That book is an excellent find Al....way to go.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on October 01, 2012, 11:48:05 PM

Hi Gang while i am doing 5 different free energy experiments i thought i would share my 1/2 microamp led jt circuit .

Another accident circuit except this time i built many of them . This one with run a transistor jt with just dissimilar metals in your hands . thats right free light from your hands . I tested this on a tiny crystal cell i made from a 22 bullet at 1.020 vdc with just 1 tiny bit of current 1ua and also holding a piece of magnesium between my fingers and the alligator clips of the input . It will light up dimly or blink bright but shows how to harness electricity that has almost zero current . it will light to 1/2 of a micro amp. Some one asked how i did it and so i drew it up from one i made .
You have to understand the things i make i slap together and hardly never write any directions down as once i learn it i just do it . this time i think you will like this one. I build it years ago and threw it in my box full of jt parts and just found it recently . you make it with the parts you got already . The bullet instructions are in ibpointless crystal cell thread .
gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on October 02, 2012, 07:44:15 AM

@gadget

I think that this crt would give Lasersabers low voltage crt a run for its money!

Thanks again for the diagram.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on October 02, 2012, 08:40:59 AM

I don't know his said circuit lights a cfl with a cap . I have tried over a year to do that and not even close . A cap just don't
have that much energy to run said 25 mins+ ?;{} Anyways some one breadboard this one so i know i got it drawn t
right please . The trimmers i got can probably be replaced with a 1 through 7 pf disk . I don't have a cap meter but it has to be one of those capacitances.

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on October 02, 2012, 02:35:56 PM

Are you talking about LS initial ringer crt? If so I was able to ger it running a cfl for about 5 minutes off of a 1000uf cap. That was a proto so it has since been dismantled.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on October 02, 2012, 09:45:07 PM

Sure, all you need is more capacitance. I've put together a bank of electrolytics that is around 300,000 microFarad and can handle 40 volts safely. Fits in a plastic shoebox, 7 big computer-grade filter caps.
That one will run your ringer-powered CFL for hours, but you have to be careful with that much capacitance, it's easy to do damage to stuff when charging and discharging.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on October 02, 2012, 09:49:42 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on October 02, 2012, 08:40:59 AM
I don't know his said circuit lights a cfl with a cap . I have tried over a year to do that and not even close . A cap just don't
have that much energy to run said 25 mins+ ?;{} Anyways some one breadboard this one so i know i got it drawn t
right please . The trimmers i got can probably be replaced with a 1 through 7 pf disk . I don't have a cap meter but it has to be one of those capacitances.

Gadget

I just have a question about how the LED is hooked up. Is that part right? The anode isn't connected to the transistor collector at all, but rather to its base?
I think that one might be able to use a "gimmick" for the small trimmer: just two pieces of small, insulated wire twisted together for several turns, then "chopped" to trim. At least that works for trimmers in that range in other circuits. What do you think?
I've got it just about done but I can't find a 200k trimpot in my box.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on October 02, 2012, 11:27:13 PM

Well, right after I posted that I found a 200K trimpot. So I built it, and I tried it with the LED connected both ways... and I found such interesting results that I put in another LED, reversed, and a switch so I could switch one leg of the pair to either the collector/coil junction or the transistor base/trimpot/cap/trimmer connection. Very interesting scope shots, transistor gets hot, the LEDs light alternately depending on switch position.

Thanks, gadgetmall, for this interesting circuit! I probably still don't have it right because I don't think I'm getting microamps of current draw.

Here's the circuit variation I've got wired up right now. The "toroid" is ten+ten turns on a ferrite "bead" wrapped cylindrically not toroidally.
Later on tonight I'll make a video showing the interesting scope traces. This circuit can make some very fast rise-time spikes.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on October 03, 2012, 07:27:33 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khWpEau1cvk
( sorry, it's kind of overlong.... but I've left the thing running, and the battery voltage is up to 1.33 volts right now.....)

Thanks, gadgetmall, again for this interesting variation. I'm still not getting down to the tiny current you report, but so what, it's interesting anyway with that reversed voltage and current. The battery voltage increase I'm seeing now, though, is happening with the LED anode connected "normally", to the coil-collector junction. I think.
:P

(edit to update link... and it's up to 1.34 volts......)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on October 03, 2012, 12:27:24 PM

Thanks Tk and enjoyed your video as always . . try 20 winds and a better toroid .and tiny parts .If you have a 1 meg pot they work better than the one i showed using 200k .I just may replicate your variation;} My bullet is still running this thing . It is so low my three digit fluke meter won't read any current now . The White led i use is glowing and you can put you eye on it and see the material blob with the two tiny wires inside it light up close. If i reduce the pot resistance close to short it blinks blinding bright . (warning !!do not stare at leds !) ??? you can if they are dim . BTW the cathode is on the negative emitter like normal BUT the anode + is on the base and wiper of the pot .
you suppose your battery is just rising due to it recovering to it's original volts . That measurement is missing and your next one should show the starting volts before you energize it.

Here is a 60 watt old fashion Incandescent bulb jt . It is a slight replication of Lasersabers Jt v3 . It works but it's an amp guzzler . This 2n3055 gets hot hot and i think it is due to the wrong permeability of this radio rod i am using till i get my two "golden rods" in .

I tried a pot on the base and it smoked it like i plugged it in a wall outlet . I am using a larger resistor and an orange drop cap but you can smell em cooking .. it will make the filament glow at 3.5 volts . As you can see i am using a hefty 14 volt pack to get the 60 watt bulb close to full brightness . draws 3.4 amps

http://youtu.be/qm8O1hMXpRs (http://youtu.be/qm8O1hMXpRs)

Edit *********I rode to the mailbox and my rife machine and two Big A#$ rods are here !I feel the power already

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on October 03, 2012, 02:29:56 PM

I just got my golden rods in . WOW . they are big . Look at the difference in my Big(little 6inch) radio rod compared to the one Lasersaber uses for Ver3 . Muuhhuhuhuaaaa..
lest see some serious power now.. I got two.

Hmm . took me ten minutes to wind one of the new rods . I am Disappointed . I don't see any difference . i counted the windings 200 #24 / and twenty #14 and it lit up the bulb but the transistor still gets so hot you can't touch it . I also cannot light the filament up with a 1.5 volt battery as he did in the video . Nor can i swap emitter and collector like i can with the other radio rod : So i unwound it and this time i used # 20 wire all the way from end to end again and it ended up being 350 turns end to end using bigger wire that 24 , So if he used # 24 in the video as he said it will take quite a bit more turns than 200 to go end to end .With 200 turns of #24 wire i have over one inch on each end not covered in wire . So 350 turns #20 and 30 turns of house wire . I could go 50 turns but ran out .i used 4 1/2 feet for 30 turns . .
Results . Just a bit brighter but the transistor still sucks 3.2 amps and gets very hot . I tried a ceramic resistor on the base and you can roast a weenie near it . Transistor still hot . Soo . I don't know what else to do to it right now .
I might try 4 layers of #20 on the inside and 100 turns of house wire on the outside of the next rod and see what that does,... If that don't work like i want it to i will wind 2000 turns on the inside and experiment with different wires on the outside . They are easy to wind and unwind .

Goal here is get the input volts and current way down like 1.2 volts //////////////// I might try a big Darlington on it before i do any more mods also . If it is any different that what i had i will post it in a vid.

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: DreamThinkBuild on October 03, 2012, 03:02:38 PM

Hi Gadget.

If you can light a 400watt infrared heat lamp off that let me know. ;) Winter is coming.

Put two rods in parallel? Hmmm...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on October 03, 2012, 06:35:11 PM

can some one good in math calculate my results on the LSver3 replication lights 60 watt 115volt bulb using 14.5 volts 3.4 amps .what is the cop of this thing?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: synchro1 on October 03, 2012, 06:41:58 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on October 03, 2012, 06:35:11 PM
can some one good in math calculate my results on the LSver3 replication lights 60 watt 115volt bulb using 14.5 volts 3.4 amps .what is the cop of this thing?

You need to determine how bright the bulb is shining with a lux meter. JonnyDavro has a cheap way to measure the Lumens.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on October 04, 2012, 12:12:07 AM

Hi folks, hi gadget, pretty sure he used 28 gauge wire, though not sure if it is awg. or swg.
peace love light
tyson

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on October 04, 2012, 03:30:48 AM

Hi gadget, can you put your schematic up again for your JT using those new rods. Also what's the value of your base resistance! if it's to low it will affect the current through the collector / emitter junction and run hot.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on October 04, 2012, 04:00:36 AM

I'm just mentioning a few general points here, and not wishing to put anyone off experimenting of course. The JT circuit and several other variants of the principles of power invertion via inductance will always show similar results.
Depending on what load we require to work i.e. voltage and current, will itself decide how much current draw from source will be reuired to make it work. To light any type of fillament lamp brightly will take considerable more current draw compared with an LED. LED's are relatively high impedance semiconductor devices capable of giving higher brightness levels with low current and voltage needs. That's why a JT circuit and similar configurations that can provide high output voltages... light several LED's in a series combination and still keep the current through the string at a very low level. Filament bulbs and other devices have far different characteristics thus demand a higher current and likewise greater input power requirements from the source.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: b_rads on October 04, 2012, 10:03:11 AM

Quote from: crowclaw on October 04, 2012, 04:00:36 AM
I'm just mentioning a few general points here, and not wishing to put anyone off experimenting of course. The JT circuit and several other variants of the principles of power invertion via inductance will always show similar results.
Depending on what load we require to work i.e. voltage and current, will itself decide how much current draw from source will be reuired to make it work. To light any type of fillament lamp brightly will take considerable more current draw compared with an LED. LED's are relatively high impedance semiconductor devices capable of giving higher brightness levels with low current and voltage needs. That's why a JT circuit and similar configurations that can provide high output voltages... light several LED's in a series combination and still keep the current through the string at a very low level. Filament bulbs and other devices have far different characteristics thus demand a higher current and likewise greater input power requirements from the source.

I posted a youtube the first of this week of a very simple low power flip-flop. Running yellow LEDs 2.15V, 36mA took a little over 2mA to run ~ bright white 3.2V, 20mA took about 3/4mA to run. Both the yellow and white were very bright. You are correct in that the load can affect the input to the circuit.

@Gadgetmall ~ you must take the brightness of the bulb into account when computing efficiency of a circuit. @Jouleseeker has shown a lightbox in the LynxLamp thread, it is very simple to build and measure brightness of the bulb. I have used my lightbox many times on different builds. His formula for computing the efficiency is not difficult once you gather the numbers. Would love to see pics, video of your build.

Thanks,
Brad S

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on October 04, 2012, 02:01:09 PM

@b_rads, Yes LED's have improved tremendously, the high brightness types especially. I use some amber LED's left over from a project I was involved with a few years ago for UK traffic signal control. At 20mA you can't view them directly. I have them built into two outdoor wall lights (six in each) they shine through solid 2" perspex diffused tubes and give a pleasant bright glow at night. And yes they are powered by a JT circuit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on October 04, 2012, 03:01:35 PM

Just thought I would repost this dual output JT circuit from an earlier posting_ way back. New members may like to experiment with it. The two coils have an equal number of turns and share the same former. All values are purely experimental as per standard JT circuits R1 & R2 are optional... several LED's can be series connected across the output of the diodes, or alternatively each string etc can be separately outputted from each diode (note polarity)and subsequently terminated to ground. I found from personal choice BC547 and 2n222 generally work well and most of my ferrite rings were reclaimed from scrap power supplies wound with thin gauge multi stranded hook up wire...have fun. See later posting for schematic diagram.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on October 04, 2012, 03:04:28 PM

I got it !! I took the other new rod and wound 1080 turns of number 26 then taped it . Then i wrapped 370 turns #20 on top of it and taped it . I can now light an incandescent filament with 1.2 volts and transistor runs cold ., BUT running over 12 volts blows the transistor . due to high voltage . I blew three 2n3055 and one tip3055 , SO now is where i need to put some resistance in this circuit and probably a neon to protect the transistor . It's KILLER !! about 10.5 it lights an unmodified 120 vac cfl unmodified leds lamps 60 watt light bulbs and in my opinion i should be able to loop it with a cap .. no time for pics right now maybe tonight when i figure out how to tame this powerful ls circuit ..

Crowclaw it is lasersabers circuit . I am just modified it to run on one battery . see a few post back for his diagram . he has no base resistor just an 8 inch special ferrite fat rod and one layer then another layer for the primary . It is an awesome circuit one you get the wire length right . right now i think i have too much but i like it that way . when i saw the 110 volt 60 watt filament glow on a rechargeable aa i am happy . i let it run for 15 mins and there was hardly no drop in volts still 1.2 :) This is unconventional . puts watts out for milliamps . Oh i also have a strong magnet attached on one end . it make it brighter .

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: synchro1 on October 04, 2012, 03:19:41 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on October 04, 2012, 03:04:28 PM
I got it !! I took the other new rod and wound 1080 turns of number 26 then taped it . Then i wrapped 370 turns #20 on top of it and taped it . I can now light an incandescent filament with 1.2 volts and transistor runs cold ., BUT running over 12 volts blows the transistor . due to high voltage . I blew three 2n3055 and one tip3055 , SO now is where i need to put some resistance in this circuit and probably a neon to protect the transistor . It's KILLER !! about 10.5 it lights an unmodified 120 vac cfl unmodified leds lamps 60 watt light bulbs and in my opinion i should be able to loop it with a cap .. no time for pics right now maybe tonight when i figure out how to tame this powerful ls circuit ..

Crowclaw it is lasersabers circuit . I am just modified it to run on one battery . see a few post back for his diagram . he has no base resistor just an 8 inch special ferrite fat rod and one layer then another layer for the primary . It is an awesome circuit one you get the wire length right . right now i think i have too much but i like it that way . when i saw the 110 volt 60 watt filament glow on a rechargeable aa i am happy . i let it run for 15 mins and there was hardly no drop in volts still 1.2 :) This is unconventional . puts watts out for milliamps . Oh i also have a strong magnet attached on one end . it make it brighter .

Gadget

Awesome! Really excited about your accomplishment. I'm convinced it's COP>1 with Zaev demag power. Accounts for the cold transistor. The magnet is the cincher. Good luck on the the loop back to source.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: truesearch on October 04, 2012, 03:20:46 PM

@gadgetmall:

That sounds great!! Congradulations! ;D

Looks like your input is 1.2vdc but can you get an exact milliamp on that input voltage? And what output volts/amps?

truesearch

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on October 04, 2012, 03:23:13 PM

having big problems posting circuit!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on October 04, 2012, 03:36:00 PM

Sorry all... Managed to post the circuit quoted earlier

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: lasersaber on October 04, 2012, 03:55:39 PM

Quotewhen i saw the 110 volt 60 watt filament glow on a rechargeable aa i am happy .
i let it run for 15 mins and there was hardly no drop in volts still 1.2

I knew you would get it working! I updated my website today so you may want to check that out. I will be posting a new video soon. I am building with much larger rods now and the performance is great! I am also experimenting with adding a spark gap and also feeding excess power back into the source. Loads of fun. When built right these power unmodified CFLs with no problem and unless the load is huge the transistor stays cool.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on October 04, 2012, 03:56:34 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on October 04, 2012, 03:04:28 PM
I got it !! I took the other new rod and wound 1080 turns of number 26 then taped it . Then i wrapped 370 turns #20 on top of it and taped it . I can now light an incandescent filament with 1.2 volts and transistor runs cold ., BUT running over 12 volts blows the transistor . due to high voltage . I blew three 2n3055 and one tip3055 , SO now is where i need to put some resistance in this circuit and probably a neon to protect the transistor . It's KILLER !! about 10.5 it lights an unmodified 120 vac cfl unmodified leds lamps 60 watt light bulbs and in my opinion i should be able to loop it with a cap .. no time for pics right now maybe tonight when i figure out how to tame this powerful ls circuit ..

Crowclaw it is lasersabers circuit . I am just modified it to run on one battery . see a few post back for his diagram . he has no base resistor just an 8 inch special ferrite fat rod and one layer then another layer for the primary . It is an awesome circuit one you get the wire length right . right now i think i have too much but i like it that way . when i saw the 110 volt 60 watt filament glow on a rechargeable aa i am happy . i let it run for 15 mins and there was hardly no drop in volts still 1.2 :) This is unconventional . puts watts out for milliamps . Oh i also have a strong magnet attached on one end . it make it brighter .

Gadget

Well done Gadget, Youv'e rewound your coils and altered the circuit reactance. The base drive impedance has now increased thus lowering the collector current to a lower level, hence transistor runs cool. This is were you need to introduce a base resistor to adjust the bias for higher source voltages. Trimpot would be useful to find the sweet spot. Also back emf together with a far higher output pulses seen off your 2N... It's all down to finding the best working efficiency of your particular circuit configuration. Good work

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on October 04, 2012, 05:30:59 PM

Gadget, Lasersaber, and All:
I've also got a bit of good news. I was just able to light the big 65 watt Clf BRIGHTLY, as well as all my other Cfls, and leds, although the neon, or incandscents will not kick on, yet. All I really care about for now is lighting the Cfls.
I'm tempted to add more turns on the secondary, and primary also. This is still using the 3 inch ferrite rod, 400 turns of 30 gauge for the secondary, and 20 turns 14 gauge primary. It zapped me several times, so I really got to watch the secondary output now, as it's no joke anymore. I replaced the small transistors with the MJE 3055 again, to have another go at it. And, guess what? NO HEAT, Even on 15 volts, and less than 500 mAs, from a wall adapter, or from a 12 volt battery.
Now for some unknown reason its working kick ass... It's also an Exciter, but will not light anything off of the additional 2 inch Exciter tower, just the Av plugs, even though it has a strong wireless field up to about a foot away from the circuit or tower.
This is one awesome circuit, and it costed me, well, Zilch. As that was all I could afford to spend on it. Ha!
I'll post some more pictures later tonight,
Thanks Lasersaber!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on October 04, 2012, 06:10:44 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on October 04, 2012, 03:04:28 PM
I got it !! I took the other new rod and wound 1080 turns of number 26 then taped it . Then i wrapped 370 turns #20 on top of it and taped it . I can now light an incandescent filament with 1.2 volts and transistor runs cold ., BUT running over 12 volts blows the transistor . due to high voltage . I blew three 2n3055 and one tip3055 , SO now is where i need to put some resistance in this circuit and probably a neon to protect the transistor . It's KILLER !! about 10.5 it lights an unmodified 120 vac cfl unmodified leds lamps 60 watt light bulbs and in my opinion i should be able to loop it with a cap .. no time for pics right now maybe tonight when i figure out how to tame this powerful ls circuit ..

Crowclaw it is lasersabers circuit . I am just modified it to run on one battery . see a few post back for his diagram . he has no base resistor just an 8 inch special ferrite fat rod and one layer then another layer for the primary . It is an awesome circuit one you get the wire length right . right now i think i have too much but i like it that way . when i saw the 110 volt 60 watt filament glow on a rechargeable aa i am happy . i let it run for 15 mins and there was hardly no drop in volts still 1.2 :) This is unconventional . puts watts out for milliamps . Oh i also have a strong magnet attached on one end . it make it brighter .

Gadget

This is very exciting stuff congrads. 15 min with visible light in bulb and no decrease in 1.5 volt AA very nice.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: synchro1 on October 04, 2012, 06:13:24 PM

Quote from: NickZ on October 04, 2012, 05:30:59 PM
Gadget, Lasersaber, and All:
I've also got a bit of good news. I was just able to light the big 65 watt Clf BRIGHTLY, as well as all my other Cfls, and leds, although the neon, or incandscents will not kick on, yet. All I really care about for now is lighting the Cfls.
I'm tempted to add more turns on the secondary, and primary also. This is still using the 3 inch ferrite rod, 400 turns of 30 gauge for the secondary, and 20 turns 14 gauge primary. It zapped me several times, so I really got to watch the secondary output now, as it's no joke anymore. I replaced the small transistors with the MJE 3055 again, to have another go at it. And, guess what? NO HEAT, Even on 15 volts, and less than 500 mAs, from a wall adapter, or from a 12 volt battery.
Now for some unknown reason its working kick ass... It's also an Exciter, but will not light anything off of the additional 2 inch Exciter tower, just the Av plugs, even though it has a strong wireless field up to about a foot away from the circuit or tower.
This is one awesome circuit, and it costed me, well, Zilch. As that was all I could afford to spend on it. Ha!
I'll post some more pictures later tonight,
Thanks Lasersaber!!!

"No Heat" working kickass!

The reason there's no heat from the transistor is the thermal conversion taking place on the quantum plane that generates the demag power. The ferrite core is leaching the transistor heat through the wires to do the work required to realign the electron orbits. The heat's transfered at the quantum level, so the wires show no ordinary signs of warming as they would through conventional thermal conduction.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on October 04, 2012, 06:13:26 PM

@ LS

Pembroke! If you live near this town I'm right down the street from you! Shoot me a PM.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: synchro1 on October 04, 2012, 09:00:36 PM

Here's a patent by Heinrich Kunel for an overunity "ENERGY LINEAR GENERATOR" identical to Gadgetmall's SUPER JR 3. Note the long ferrite core, the primary and secondary wraps, the magnet on the end and the "Circuit breaker". This patent's 34 years old.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: synchro1 on October 04, 2012, 09:45:28 PM

There are some interesting scope shots of 'DEMAGNATIZATION POWER' between the pulses in this Kunel type generator from "giantkilleroverunity":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrmL19smxww&feature=channel&list=UL (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrmL19smxww&feature=channel&list=UL)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on October 04, 2012, 10:49:38 PM

Thanks lasersaber . I am unwinding my other two cores and redoing them like this one. I have it running on 8 volts right now and it will fire off any cfl full bright and hot lust like real current will . It light bulbs and best of all itt will light led bulbs sure bright off 5 volts and of coarse light a 7 watt bulb filament 1/3 bright on a a ni/mh 1.2 volt battery . Nice .I need to mount this sucker . It hums with the magnet on it and reduces current and just works great . I am ordering 8 more rods . the cheaper ones . I want these everywhere i have a panel . i have 4 nice 100 watt 68 volt panels i am not using right now .

Thanks for the head up syncro1 on the cool patents . I also have thick rubber tape so the magnet is not directly on the ferrite . Accidentally the tape was there already . ..

Crowclaw .thank you for the kind information , I believe this particular coil is closer to resonance . i tried resistance on these and it just blows then up .

We will try and make some videos and stuff tomorrow .

contrast Nickz !!We have lift off !!! .

i am heading to lowes to get some of that 14 wire tomorrow . My 14 is thinker like house wire, heavy copper .
going to find some cases for these things . i want a strip to fit one in and have a neat plug like ls..

Gadget out . Come on people join in the fun here !!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on October 05, 2012, 01:12:12 PM

Ok here is One i have finished and am going to mount this one , It is a modification of the LS 3 REAL WORLD POWER JT .
It will run from a 1.2 volt battery and light 1000's of leds but the real power is what i am showing . It runs off just 5 volts and powers unmodified cfls HOT . meaning they use the filament inside like a normal outlet . it also lights other filament lights and well as ANY Led bulb full blast .

the mods are several more layers of wire of coarse . a small disk cap on the collector emitter .01 and a strong magnet on one side insulated from the core rod . Very nice super cool .

Gadget http://youtu.be/8_0OsJUNlgw (http://youtu.be/8_0OsJUNlgw)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Dave45 on October 05, 2012, 04:18:10 PM

Gadget here is a sch. you can copy and modify in ms paint.
I made it for myself so posted it here to.
I'll be ordering some rods next week, we need to find a good source.
Outstanding

dave

Edit: dang forgot the magnet :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on October 05, 2012, 05:15:08 PM

Nice dave thats i also put a little .01 uf cap between emmiter and collector . it brightens it up quite a bit .
This is a 40watt CFL fired off full bright and Hot 110 volt ac

http://youtu.be/8_0OsJUNlgw (http://youtu.be/8_0OsJUNlgw)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Dave45 on October 05, 2012, 05:40:54 PM

Has anyone tried a small motor (inductive load) yet. Frequency may be to high might need to be rectified'

dave

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on October 05, 2012, 07:03:53 PM

I DID ON MY JOULE SCREEMER , RUNNING A FACTORY !

oK HERE IS MY 6 INCH FREE RADIO FERRITE ROD REWOUND FOR THE LAST TIME . TWO LAYERS OF #20 TAPED AND ONE COPPER WINDING AS THE PRIMARY . THIS ONE BLEW 4 TRANSISTORS BEFORE I USED A NEON ON A TIP3055 AS ITS THE ONLY KIND I HAVE LEFT . i HAVE BLOWN 8 2N3055'S AND ONE NICE DARLINGTON . iT WONT TAKE OVER 5 VOLTS MAX . THIS IS A HIGH POWERED JOULE THIEF FOR SURE . IT RAN ALL THE WAY DOWN TO .355 OF A VOLT . HERE IT'S RUNNING OFF A 1.2 VOLT RECHARGEABLE C CELL. GLOWING A BULB FILAMENT . http://youtu.be/1YdLmgVf8x8

IT WILL RUN ANY LED BULB OR CFL WITH A LITTLE COAXING .

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 05, 2012, 11:55:50 PM

Al:

Fantastic! I really love how you brought the input back down to 1.2 volts. That is where we all started and now you can light an Edison bulb.....simply incredible.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on October 06, 2012, 02:37:25 AM

Hi folks, Hi gadget, thanks for sharing your experiment results and videos, could you please share the amp draw results from some of these tests, thanks much.
Trying a ferrite e-core for this SJR 3.0, just wrapping around the whole thing like a solenoid to fit more windings, we'll see what happens.

peace love light
tyson :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on October 06, 2012, 02:35:25 PM

@Gadget
Well done... good results_while running your experiments though I would use a larger heat sink, you don't want to create a shortage of 2N3055's!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on October 06, 2012, 03:04:24 PM

I think that the heat-sink is a very important measure, especially when using higher voltages and current level, like 12v to 24v. There is an amazing difference to the temp of the transistor, as it remain much cooler while the heat-sink gets hotter than the transistor does, with several degrees of difference between them.
As we go for 24 volt or even higher voltages a small pc fan on the heat sink will come in more than handy.
I also feel that as we get into higher output levels, the back emf spikes can kill an unprotected transistor.
So, what is the best way to provide for that protection??? A couple of 1n4248 diodes on the base, a base resistor, caps, Or, what? As It may not just be the temperature that we need to watch out for.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on October 06, 2012, 05:27:50 PM

Quote from: NickZ on October 06, 2012, 03:04:24 PM
I think that the heat-sink is a very important measure, especially when using higher voltages and current level, like 12v to 24v. There is an amazing difference to the temp of the transistor, as it remain much cooler while the heat-sink gets hotter than the transistor does, with several degrees of difference between them.
As we go for 24 volt or even higher voltages a small pc fan on the heat sink will come in more than handy.
I also feel that as we get into higher output levels, the back emf spikes can kill an unprotected transistor.
So, what is the best way to provide for that protection??? A couple of 1n4248 diodes on the base, a base resistor, caps, Or, what? As It may not just be the temperature that we need to watch out for.

Good points made hear Nickz...

The high inductive energy produced by these circuits especially as the source voltage is increased can lead to premature failure irrespective of the power handling capabilities of the device. Points to note are:-
1) Over biasing _ excessive base current transistor driven into saturation, junction temperature rises and device goes into thermal run away... heavy collector emitter current! Limit base drive current to acceptable level.
2) Back emf_situation arises as the inductive field collapses due to switching action of circuit, collector emitter reversed bias breakdown destroys transistor. Protection diode wired across emitter collector to suppress spikes or in series with collector circuit.
3) Insufficient heat sink cooling_thermal dispersion. Improve cooling arrangements and ensure good thermal conduction between transistor and cooling block (thermal paste)

Also worth a mention from my own experiences. The 2N3055 transistor is a well proven device for power output applications. However as the boundaries are pushed towards higher source voltages with high operating frequencies I have favoured the use of TV timebase scan output devices which are better designed and suited for these applications with internal protection included. Plenty of scrap CRT TV's around!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on October 06, 2012, 06:44:59 PM

Crowclaw:
Thank you for your comments. Can you explain how to use the crt timebase scan output devices.
I just threw away an old working 15 inch crt monitor, but kept the main component board, and tube yoke for further experiments. Can the crt monitor's HF transistors be used in place of the 2n3055? The ones mounted on the aluminum heat sink or shield?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on October 06, 2012, 07:52:57 PM

Thanks Crowclaw . Yes the problems i have had are high voltage spikes killing the transistors . It is instant death for the little one above "(6inch rod) 3 volts . The diode stops the circuit . Limiting the base stops the circuit so my only option is a neon across the e / c as in all my Bedini replications. The current to glow the filament is 250 ma's transistor is cool @ 1.2 volts I can raise the volts to 2.5 and the current is around 800ma .. it is hardly nothing lighting led bulbs , a mere 32ma . it is 125 ma running a clf unmodified full bright on 3 volts . All these are way to high for me as i like single digits but already this is very efficient as is . I looked all day in town today for a box to put in . I am going to use a 6 volt solar panel and a couple of ultra caps to run this thing day and night in my new little shop outside .
I will continue to work with the golden rods though and have 8 more on order. .. 10mm x 200mm is big enuff =cheaaper that 32 bucks each. 12 for 8 plus chipping for the ruski rods

Hi Xee . long time no see . I hope you are well .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on October 07, 2012, 12:27:17 AM

Ok here is a little circuit i pulled from the Internet for a 60 watt inverter i converted a bit . instead of a single primary will be wrapping a second #12 16 turn . .
using the 2 2n3055's in a push pull to fire the magic rod off 1.5 volts .. Hopefully .Will post a working mod for the LS3 using a second transistor in push pull configuration. .
I found a way to recycle my 8 blown 2n3055's they make good little solar cells . you can power a joule thief with one cut open and exposed to light (.5v@4ma.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=526xslmO6Ds (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=526xslmO6Ds)

The circuit below is a work in progress as the coils need crossing as the outputs should come from one secondary and one primary for the rod to be as close to LS3 as possible . If anyone has played with inverters this one should work as posted with a small 12 volt center tapped step down transformer backwards . I built one like this in 8th grade for an electronics shop project . I remember i took it with me on long trips my mom and dad went on and we used a small B&;W tv in the back seat powered from the lighter plug. That was very high tech for the 60's as vibrator devices were still in use .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on October 07, 2012, 03:38:51 AM

Hi folks, Hi gadget, think you may have forgot the capacitors that go in the circuit also, unless that does work without them, found the website you got that from, they call it a micro inverter.
That will be nice if the caps are not needed, though just put together the typical flip flop flasher using 4 leds in series per side for 12 volts, works well.
Will change the circuit now to what you posted and see if it will work, unless the transformer coil plays a role in the operation.
peace love light
tyson :)

edit: ok, it does work, kind of figured the coils capacitance would play a role in making it oscillate, cool.
Had to wire it up like a joule thief for it to work meaning, end of one strand connects to start of other.
using smaller PNP 2 amp transistors with this.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on October 07, 2012, 10:04:55 AM

Thank you Tyson. I am trying to replace that transformer with the rod I think it can be done by adding another primary . I also might need an pnp transistor in place of one 2n3055 . I don't have a circuit simulator anymore so i will have to solder this up as it stands .

The crossing of my schematic need testing . i may have to flip the collectors connections to the primary centers and the pos rail to the outsides ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on October 07, 2012, 02:30:12 PM

Quote from: NickZ on October 06, 2012, 06:44:59 PM
Crowclaw:
Thank you for your comments. Can you explain how to use the crt timebase scan output devices.
I just threw away an old working 15 inch crt monitor, but kept the main component board, and tube yoke for further experiments. Can the crt monitor's HF transistors be used in place of the 2n3055? The ones mounted on the aluminum heat sink or shield?

Check the data sheet first for pin out etc. (www.alldatasheet.com) most of these devices work fine in place of your 2N3055. I have several older type TV scan output transistors from years back namely BU508D... The switching characteristics and peak voltage handling characteristics are better suited for high voltage HF work. Always use a decent heatsink of course just in case!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on October 07, 2012, 03:05:03 PM

@gadgetmall

Yes a very simple multivibrator inverter circuit. The efficiency is not brilliant but it works ok, you need a decent transformer however with a secondary winding capable of several amps for a useful primary output current. The output waveform is in fact a square wave, however the inductance of the primary output and load tends to round off the squareness of the output to crudely resemble AC.
Showing your age gadget!! I remember vibrator packs too...noisey things while working, many of the early car radio's used them to provide the HT supply for then_ VALVES as we call them in the UK or TUBES in the States.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 07, 2012, 04:59:07 PM

All:

I can't tell you how great it is to me that the old JT topic is up and alive once again. Like some others here, i was afraid that we had reached the limit of what this circuit can do but with the latest work by Gadget and Lasersaber and Nick and everyone else (sorry if i can't recall the names at this moment) I see it now going forward to levels we never even thought of in the old days.

Filament bulbs? I remember xee2 lighting some 12 volt car type bulbs way back when..but they were dim, and now look what is going on.

I want to thank every one who has participated and is participating in this research. You guys have all made my year once again.

Thank you,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on October 07, 2012, 05:20:11 PM

Hey Bill . WE can now get close to 60 watts from a jt . This means lighting clfs full bright , next step is running inductive loads like tv's ,radios , chargers , small stuff for now but indeed a big leap . WE fry leds for supper now and it's going way past those little jts from the early days . the secret is large wire primary's and big power transistors . Fun it is .

Here is my 6 inch setup incased with an aa battery (2 parallel) providing a fixture ready to mount in my shop . Will be charging it via a 6 volt panel with small LM regulator transistor set to 2 volts . She will run day and night .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: aaron5120 on October 08, 2012, 03:54:56 AM

Sorry Gdgetmall,
I am a little bit confused, is this the circuit of Lasersaber 3.0 or the microinverter you modified and post in the last page?
I read that you modified the coil to double primaries, but you did not explain if you are using the push-pull inverter mode to achieve the latest results.
Thanks for the clarification.
aaron5120

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: powercat on October 08, 2012, 05:28:13 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on October 07, 2012, 05:20:11 PM
Here is my 6 inch setup incased with an aa battery (2 parallel) providing a fixture ready to mount in my shop . Will be charging it via a 6 volt panel with small LM regulator transistor set to 2 volts . She will run day and night .

You mean solar panel,YES, that would be fantastic
I'd try this experiment myself using very big panels and Exon lights, the results were not good,
at best the battery took longer to run down then it would have done if there were no solar panels

I hope you have better luck than me.
All the best

[/size]

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 04, 2012, 04:38:08 PM

OK . 6 volt Solar panel keeps My new LifePo pack charged(replaced the AA's with a smaller more powerfull LifePo pack) and runs 24/7 led house bulbs ! I have free energy lights in my shop outside now ..

I am almost finished with Lasersabers Soln1 project . My 20watt panels has built in inverter for house current to 175 watts . Built in perpetual light for easy location in the dark .built in led volts meter ,built in Ls3 module and runs from 3.2 volts and powers any bulb all night . Built in radio , and more !! . I will show it when finished and am selling it on ebay .. It is the Backpackers or Doomsday preppers best friend .

I just completed a 4th ls3 using junk . I found some ferrite barrel connectors and glued two together making a three inch "tube rod" I then glued these plastic medicine caps on the edges . I then wrapped 5 layers of #26 on and not to neat either .(about 100feet) It overlaps in several places more than 3 or 4 turns but i just kept winding until i was tired ') I then black taped that wad and wound 1 and a half layers of black solid strand bell wire you get from radio shack . About 7 or 8 feet . . I used a Cheap Tip3055 and it runs Led bulbs 220 volts or Incandescent bulbs great off just 2.5 volts and really good on 5 or 6 volts . The transistor runs Ambient room temp (cold)

I have yet to make one NOT Work . The key is lots of wire ...

In the picture is the third barrel next to a penny to show what they are and the size . As you can see that Globe light is a 220 volt led bulb i bought for a dollar off ebay . It is dim on normal 110 volts but it lights up bright on My new ls3 Junkyard setup off 2.5 volts.The other bulb is of coarse a filment 8 watt aquarium light bulb. it is full bright on 6 volts input and this little unit runs any unmodified cfl full on .

also a picture of the new lifepo4 batteries . 3.2 volts @20 ah .. I have 4 in my 20watt panel .They require a Power conditioning circuit(PCM) which keeps the batteries from over charging and undercharging and balanced from the 1.16 amp Solar panel . The panel contains a yellow led visual indications of exact voltage . Also has two usb charging ports for ipads,cell phones and any usb charged device . It also has two 120 volt recepticals one from the inverter and one from the LS3 . One usb port and one 120 outlet is powered only by one of these batteries .

Video coming of How to build as soon as some parts arrive . This unit comes with a keyed switch and all fused and led indicators . also two three way switches control the inverter ,ls3 ,Usb regulator and an additional Jt ..It is a fun project but expensive and i need to sell it .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 04, 2012, 05:42:29 PM

Wow... those LiPos look really cool, and dangerous too..... nice stuff you've got there.

Meanwhile I've been having fun too. I took an inductor, 10 mH, from an old TV and wound a primary on top of it, and now I light a NE-2 on as little as 1.0 volt from a AAA battery. The scope indicates spikes of over 150 volts on the output even with the neon connected.

This one has around 300 or more turns on the original winding, and then I put around 30 turns of #22 on top of it, over a layer of cloth tape. Using LaserSaber's circuit with 330R in the base resistor. The heat sink on the 3055 is just for show.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 04, 2012, 10:25:36 PM

Far out Tk!! You know i got to make one too :P

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 05, 2012, 01:13:47 AM

Gadget and TK:

Nice work you guys. I will never be able to keep up with your projects. So much to try, so little time.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Neo-X on November 05, 2012, 01:55:54 AM

@ all

I a have question.. Why tesla coil doesnt self oscillate? If the tesla coil can create excess energy why it cant power itself without feedback from the secondary?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 05, 2012, 09:59:34 AM

Because it is cold electricity from the secondary and the primary uses hot electricity.
There is very little current from the secondary . You need Current more so than voltage for a Tesla input . I guess you can try and reduce the Voltage down with a transformer of some sorts to 12 volts and see if that increases your current enough to power up a Tesla supply .

here is a perpetual circuit tested !!supposedly. it self resonates and powers itself after a tap from a 12 volt battery and is claimed to have been tested by a few . The key here is what transistor and the winds and ratio .and capacitor .. It is worth Investigating and simple after all we have built many of the similar circuits, .

The battery starter can be replaced by a Piezo Lighter sparker hooked up to a coil for complete independence from a battery .
This circuit can be combined with a modified MEG and to date there has been no one who built or tested and verified it works however the original circuit i posted was confirmed .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: wings on November 05, 2012, 10:23:50 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on November 05, 2012, 09:59:34 AM
Because it is cold electricity from the secondary and the primary uses hot electricity.
There is very little current from the secondary . You need Current more so than voltage for a Tesla input . I guess you can try and reduce the Voltage down with a transformer of some sorts to 12 volts and see if that increases your current enough to power up a Tesla supply .

here is a perpetual circuit tested !!supposedly. it self resonates and powers itself after a tap from a 12 volt battery and is claimed to have been tested by a few . The key here is what transistor and the winds and ratio .and capacitor .. It is worth Investigating and simple after all we have built many of the similar circuits, .

The battery starter can be replaced by a Piezo Lighter sparker hooked up to a coil for complete independence from a battery .

Alexander Meissner 1914 - not with transistor at that time

http://www.google.com/patents/US1924796 (http://www.google.com/patents/US1924796)

.... not self starting - Strange Oscillator Circuit

http://www.electricstuff.co.uk/oddosc.html

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 05, 2012, 10:44:29 AM

He dosn't understand that if that circuit is a selfrunning oscillator it is VERY useful .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 05, 2012, 11:50:22 AM

Quote from: Neo-X on November 05, 2012, 01:55:54 AM
@ all

I a have question.. Why tesla coil doesnt self oscillate? If the tesla coil can create excess energy why it cant power itself without feedback from the secondary?

A good TC will "ring" for a (relatively) long time. But there are always wire and radiation (RF and heat) losses. Tesla's great idea was to use the natural resonance of the huge cavity made by the earth ground and the ionosphere to "pump" a large coil system, making it possible to extract injected power at any point on the globe. This cavity is a large capacitor, and the capacitance is capable of holding many tens of Coulombs of charge... and that's not chopped liver.
But the energy to drive that power -- to push charge into the capacitance -- still has to come from somewhere. I think that tidal effects caused by the Earth's rotation will cause the height of the ionosphere layer over any location to rise and fall on a daily basis, and this represents an injection of energy into the system that might be utilized by a _large_ TC system like he tried to build at Wardenclyffe. Tesla never claimed that his coil systems created excess energy, he thought they could enable "harnessing the wheelworks of Nature", but Nature would still have to supply the power, if it wasn't supplied by Tesla himself.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 05, 2012, 12:08:25 PM

@gadgetmall: many people build their TCs to do just what you say: make "cold electricity", lots of volts but very small currents, so little heating occurs. These systems are optimised for the spectacular long sparks and other typical TC effects. However.... this is not the only way to build a Tesla Coil. My SSTCs that I call "TinselKoils" 1 and 2 illustrate that a Tesla coil can make "hot" electricity too.
These vids below are done with v. 1; the version 2 makes the same effect but more better, since I use a lower-aspect-ratio resonator to keep all of the secondary more in the field of the primary.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DjcRPSljB4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BMRJoqdy6E

The circuitry uses a 494 chip to drive an H-bridge current amplifier stage of pnp/npn transistors; the output of this stage drives two trifilar toroidal phase transformers; the outputs of the phase transformers drive another H-bridge of high power mosfets, which in turn drives the resonator's primary, which is just a few turns of heavy stranded wire close-coupled to the secondary. There is no spark gap or large capacitor in the primary circuit and the primary H-bridge is switching rectified line current, no high voltage (nothing over 200 volts and usually much less) in the primary circuit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on November 05, 2012, 04:35:37 PM

I've been hearing all this talk of "cold electricity", but every time I get shocked from my set ups, the room smells like burnt hamburger, (me). I've already burnt out my multimeter's higher amp setting, while working on the Exciter systems. Big caps are also good, for short blasts...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 05, 2012, 06:41:12 PM

Thats definitly Hot Tk . it took seconds for the copper wire to get hot.I have a tesla Hv gen(flyback with push pull)l and i know if you let it spark on your hand in one spot it get hot or a glass bulb will burn through but i have never seen power like that in someones Lab. Very Cool and Big . Now i know this one don't run off an aa does it ;)

I hear ya Nickz . I love getting shocked apparently.I can't even count the many times i was plugged by line AC 120 and 240 in the radio ,tv days it will make you dance if it's a wire (Slings Violently till it knocks it off)).. Getting blasted with a charged dc cap at 500 volts beats them all though. I can take these battery powered stings pretty good.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on November 05, 2012, 09:37:04 PM

I'm glad to hear that you can take it... My current joule ringer set up has over a 1000 volts going through it, and when I touch it, anything in my hands goes flying across the room, as I jump out of my seat. The ferrite rod cores are the worst, there is nothing "cold" about it, you can probably burn your name in wood with the output, like WoopyJump has shown. In any case, I always feel invigorated afterwards.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Neo-X on November 06, 2012, 06:49:34 AM

Because it is cold electricity
from the secondary and the
primary uses hot electricity.
There is very little current
from the secondary . You
need Current more so than voltage for a Tesla input . I
guess you can try and reduce
the Voltage down with a
transformer of some sorts to
12 volts and see if that
increases your current enough to power up a Tesla supply .

--End of Quote--

Thats not what i meant. If the primary coil of a tesla coil could somehow get a cold electricity, it will oscillate on itself because the cold electricity supply additional energy to the coil and prevent it from stopping. This will eliminate the need of complex oscillator circuit to maintain oscillation in the primary coil and the need of feedback from the secondary for energy supply in the primary. So instead of building efficient oscillator circuit, we must discover how to make the primary self oscillate with help of cold electricity. I know theres a way but we must discover it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 06, 2012, 04:53:31 PM

Well, it would sure be nice if you turn out to be right. I'd like to know how to make that kind of cold electricity, though. If you have any ideas please let me know.

Shocking!! Yep, dittoes on the smell of burning meat and the flopping around. Always keep one hand in your pocket around real HV!
The sstc I showed in the earlier video almost cost me a finger. I'm quite familiar with taking the "cold" discharge of a properly operating TC onto a wrench held in hand, without any sensation at all. But for some reason I reached out and tried to move the setup by touching it with the side of my index finger, just above where the primary is. Not even anywhere near the top! And I got a RF burn from that that penetrated nearly to the bone and took weeks to heal. It was like someone had stuck a red-hot soldering iron into my finger only worse. The weird part is that at first it didn't hurt and looked like a pinprick. But the flesh was instantly cooked throughout a volume about the size of a large pea, and once my body realized this, oh boy. If it had gone a bit deeper actually to the bone I don't know what might have happened to the finger.
Fully healed, though... it's hard even to find the scar now.
I made a static machine, the Dirod, that charges to a voltage depending on how many turns you turn the crank. It has a 400 pF capacitor stack on it, and when it's charged to 50 kV it delivers a very startling but hopefully not dangerous shock. Without the cap stack in the circuit it is much less aggressive, and we used to give it a few turns and deliberately take the shock from that, as a little pick-me-up, like a shot of espresso.
:P

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: ltseung888 on November 14, 2012, 10:19:54 AM

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=1516.msg26471#msg26471 (http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=1516.msg26471#msg26471)

The secret of the Joule Thief is revealed in the oscilloscope analysis file nov12.xls and the full pdf explanation.

The pulse switching induces a high voltage BACK EMF that leads-out electron motion energy.

The particular configuration showed HARD evidence of Output Power > Input Power with COP around 50.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 14, 2012, 11:24:24 AM

I took the trouble of downloading your spreadsheet file. Here's the image from that file.

LTseung is scoping directly across a battery, not hooked up to anything .... and is obtaining a SINE WAVE with a stated "peak to peak" value of 1.44 V.
Then he hooks the battery to the circuit and scopes across the battery and gets another much smaller signal that his scope is telling him is 220 mV "peak to peak".

The Question of Input Voltage? Boy, I'll say.

I want to know this: How do you measure a DC voltage source... a BATTERY.... and obtain a sine wave output, with a value of 1.44 volts PEAK TO PEAK ?

Is it possible, LTseung, that you have made some kind of..... ERROR ??

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 14, 2012, 02:21:01 PM

Now I've had a look at your .pdf "explanation". Lawrence, you are way off base and you are NOT using your oscilloscope correctly. You are misunderstanding the usage, operation and effect of the AC coupling / DC coupling feature of your scope.

AC coupling is MOST CERTAINLY NOT appropriate for the measurements you are making. The AC coupling feature takes the AVERAGE VALUE of a fluctuating signal and moves that to the ZERO REFERENCE LINE of your channel, removing and ignoring the DC component (offset) and thus destroying the numerical value (for your purpose of power calculation) of the data obtained . This is the explanation for your "sine wave" on the battery... which is really a 60 Hz signal from your mains, amplified greatly to show up, not coming from the battery at all, and your citation of a "peak to peak" reading on a DC signal, and your dropping to 220 mV p-p when you have your board hooked up: the mains signal is suppressed, the actual battery voltage DC value is removed by the AC coupling setting, and you are reading the "ripple" on the DC, which is not AC at all but merely a little fluctuation sitting on top of your 1.4 volt battery voltage.

In addition, this same phenomenon of moving the average value of the signal to the zero reference can clearly be seen in your Output scope traces, and is why you think there is "negative current" when there isn't any.

You are engaging in oscilloscope abuse! You are making conclusions based on incorrect data gathering methodology, and it's plain that you should read up on AC/DC coupling functions on oscilloscopes.

Please see my video here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udAfK3WxMoo) , to see what scopes do to accomplish the AC coupling function. It really has nothing to do with "measuring AC" at all... it is about COUPLING: a DC coupled input is a straight wire linkage, an AC coupled input goes through a capacitor. That is all !! Below, under the quote from your .pdf, I show the coupling selector switches on the front panel, and the backside, of my RM503. In a DSO this function is accomplished either by a relay switching a cap in or out, or digitally by signal analysis software. You may be able to hear a "click" sound inside the scope as you change coupling, if your scope does it by the relay/cap method.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 14, 2012, 06:03:33 PM

Lawrence inspired me to make a couple more video demonstrations.

The first one just demonstrates that the NE-2 does require about 90 volts to light up, and the second one uses my LaserSaber variant NE-2 JT, running on a single AAA cell, to illustrate the difference between AC coupling and DC coupling on the oscilloscope, and what effect it has on masking or blocking the DC component of a signal.

It's good to have nice tools. But a micrometer caliper doesn't make a very good hammer, and a digital oscilloscope will only tell you the truth.... if you ask it the right questions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVCXvX-uugA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TKEQwG-2gY

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: ltseung888 on November 14, 2012, 07:36:20 PM

Quote from: TinselKoala on November 14, 2012, 02:21:01 PM
Now I've had a look at your .pdf "explanation". Lawrence, you are way off base and you are NOT using your oscilloscope correctly. You are misunderstanding the usage, operation and effect of the AC coupling / DC coupling feature of your scope.

AC coupling is MOST CERTAINLY NOT appropriate for the measurements you are making. The AC coupling feature takes the AVERAGE VALUE of a fluctuating signal and moves that to the ZERO REFERENCE LINE of your channel, removing and ignoring the DC component (offset) and thus destroying the numerical value (for your purpose of power calculation) of the data obtained . This is the explanation for your "sine wave" on the battery... which is really a 60 Hz signal from your mains, amplified greatly to show up, not coming from the battery at all, and your citation of a "peak to peak" reading on a DC signal, and your dropping to 220 mV p-p when you have your board hooked up: the mains signal is suppressed, the actual battery voltage DC value is removed by the AC coupling setting, and you are reading the "ripple" on the DC, which is not AC at all but merely a little fluctuation sitting on top of your 1.4 volt battery voltage.

In addition, this same phenomenon of moving the average value of the signal to the zero reference can clearly be seen in your Output scope traces, and is why you think there is "negative current" when there isn't any.

You are engaging in oscilloscope abuse! You are making conclusions based on incorrect data gathering methodology, and it's plain that you should read up on AC/DC coupling functions on oscilloscopes.

Dear TinselKoala,

Thank you for your reply and knowledge on oscilloscopes.

Since I shall not be in the BSI Energy Holdings Limited office for a few days, I cannot use the same FLEET for the following test.

I set the coupling to DC for the test. Please see the attached photo. The oscilloscope displays the Instantaneous Voltage no matter the DC or AC coupling setting.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 14, 2012, 09:56:45 PM

Please do what I do in the video: set the vertical trace position to put the _grounded_ signal, zero volts, at the center of the screen vertically, put your scope probe on the battery, and then show two closeups of the screen, varying only the AC coupling - DC coupling setting. You will find that I am correct.

In the DC coupled condition, you will see the 220 or 260 millivolt p-p signal sitting on top of the 1 + volt battery voltage. In the AC coupled condition, you will see this same signal down oscillating around the zero baseline, and some of it will appear to be a negative voltage.

(ETA: It looks to me like this is in fact happening: I think I can just barely make out the channel "zero" indicator on the left of the screen near the center graticule marker, and the trace is well above that, but I can't tell what the channel volts/div setting is.)

Your "numbers in boxes" -- the signal parameter readouts -- will tell you the same thing in each case: you have a 220 or 260 mV p-p oscillation. The numbers in boxes do not tell you what the center voltage of this p-p oscillation is: this depends on the coupling setting. It is up to the user- YOU- to realise the true nature of this oscillation, and at what voltages it actually occurs, and to measure it correctly.

Please try to remember to display only two or three or four complete waveforms, unless you are trying to determine frequency from the peaks. This is particularly important because the "fences" and "combs" you show later in your .pdf are full of artefact and are impossible to interpret.
Also, when you are talking about voltages, it is critical that you include the channel volts per division setting and the probe attenuation setting, and the location of the channel zero reference level, as well as the coupling AC or DC. If you are talking about frequency then the horizontal timebase setting must also be included.

What you are doing is like when a pretty girl gives you her phone number.... but the three inner digits are missing.

Also.... how do you account for that huge, perfect sine wave displayed when you are scoping only the battery, in the picture I posted from your .pdf?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 15, 2012, 10:17:27 PM

OK... I made _yet another_ video, trying to get the point across about AC and DC coupling.

This time I used a circuit a lot more similar to Lawrence's FLEET. This is a standard JT circuit, I don't know why he calls it FLEET (which is the brand name of a popular enema product in the USA, not the most felicitous choice of acronyms IMHO ho hoho...)
I'm using my low-power JT test bed, with a 2n2222a metal can transistor, an inductor from a TV set on a rectangular ferrite core, with 1:1 turns ratio and perhaps 40 or 60 turns each side, a 1K base resistor, a 1R current viewing resistor on the negative battery terminal, and some dead AAA batteries. (for some reason in the video I say "600 ohms" for the base resistor... it's 1 K though. )

It runs a bit longer than usual for my demos.... sorry about that (and the light... ;) )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcMNM1TemT8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcMNM1TemT8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Stumpy on November 15, 2012, 11:28:51 PM

Hey TK, really loving what you are doing here, much respect. Please do not stop the good stuff coming.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 15, 2012, 11:52:15 PM

Quote from: Stumpy on November 15, 2012, 11:28:51 PM
Hey TK, really loving what you are doing here, much respect. Please do not stop the good stuff coming.

Ditto.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 16, 2012, 09:49:15 AM

Hi Guys . Feeling Good today . well ok .
Here is one of my latest builds from 4 that i am putting together on an Ebay sell . It's that time of the Year again and Baby needs Christmas Money .

This is PocketPower+ She will run the devices shown for 6 hours give take to 90% ..

What do you think is in it besides a 1.2 volt battery? The last Pic is a Cfl with the Guts out.
If anyone is interested i can make them a video i guess .

I am waiting for some smaller solar cells so it will be self charging as there is plenty of room on my little Black boxes .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 16, 2012, 10:09:46 AM

While I am off topic as you know i can be (sorry ) I thought as this is the greatest topic and thread in the whole world i would show a replication i am still working on of Lasersaber's SOLN1+ . I added the plus . My panel has 4 LiFePo4 flat paks total 20ah and is having the following . Built in low powered LS3 (3.2 volts to 120 outlet) LED Votage Indicator(yellow digits) Security Switch (Mains-keyed) Built in 5 volt Usb charger port , Built in radio . built in continuous LED Light (always on-1ua pull) for easy find in the dark and light the controls .And built in 410 watt Digital Displayed Inverter which standby is 20ma .
(Indicates also battery volts,ac volts and watts pulled) with two 110 volt outlets and another USB charger , 12 volt outlet .. and two more things :) All in a small portable Solar Panel(20watts). All these things are being mounted in Precision holes i cut in side the frame. No Chunks cut out !

Will produce a demo when all my stuff gets here. Here are a few pictures . I am making a Bezel for the Tiny meter in the center with some black stuff and a clear plastic window seal from the weather . The meters fit in a tiny rectangle hole and is Flush .
Keep in mind that this Panel will Charge this pack up despite the numbers and the reason being is the power is controlled with a PCM and never lets the batteries overcharge or underDischarge so they never deplete to more than 9,2 volts in series .
This is another project i Must Sell (i don't want to) for Christmas is near and am really poor . (less than 1300 a month for 2 people)
So i have 2 more devices that will be up for auction soon ..

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Lakes on November 16, 2012, 10:24:37 AM

A bit off topic, but I`m curious, do you have to be a business seller if you sell stuff you make on Ebay?

I did a quick Google search, but did`nt arrive at a clear answer.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 16, 2012, 10:40:49 AM

Oh No @Lakes . In fact Big Business came much later in the Ebay game . Most of original sellers are Hobbyist and every one knows you can sell ANYTHING . I have seen ever4ything including Plutonium and any drug chemical you can imagine .

Be aware that you can sell what you just bought at kmart and paid tax for to anyone TAX free .You can also sell anything you make and charge Sales tax in your state . Thats America for ya. Love it.

Examples of things that you make/sell are Bird houses ,bead bracelets ,homemade soap ,Free energy devices ,Plans, Ideas anything. You can sell your clippedcoupons or your old lady(or you) can sell her used underwear :) or even a picture in her underwear.You can sell an IDEA or a DREAM .I have see it all on Ebay and Craigslist.No Busniess required . A toothless homeless bum can sell his toenails(or a sample of his foot fungus for a microscope slide) if he has access to a computer and an address to get the money . (and he has a Buyer)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 16, 2012, 10:57:00 AM

@gadgetmall: That is some nice stuff. I like the Black Box a lot. I'm sorry that I can't help out by buying one from you, but I'm impoverished myself..... the panel idea is also great. You'll have success on EBay I'm sure.

@Pirate, Stumpy: Thanks.... if the Lathe is the King of Tools, then surely the Oscilloscope is the King of test equipment. I'm no JT expert.... gadgetmall and the rest of the folks on this thread have gone far past my low-power HVJTs... and I wish LTseung all the best.... but I've seen a lot of "false alarms" that can be traced to improper use and/or interpretation of oscilloscopes... or even the lack of use of a 'scope!
Even here I'm just touching the basics.... there is some advanced scoposcopy going on in some other threads that show just what kind of info an experienced user can get from scope traces, far beyond my level here.
I don't know what math capability Lawrence's DSO has, but as long as it can display two traces, it is possible to do real power measurements using it, even if it doesn't have trace multiplication or integration. It's a timeconsuming process to do it manually on a still image of the scopetrace, but using my rather tedious manual method I can generally get to within 5 percent or so of a "correct" average power and energy integral as given by a fully math-capable DSO. Of course the DSO does it in realtime or in seconds.... my manual method takes an hour of concentration and some graphics processing and spreadsheeting.

@gadgetmall..... again, I am really impressed. Wow..... keep up the high standards and the nice design concepts. Respect !! Get those items listed on EBay, make the purchaser pay the shipping..... and be ready to handle a lot of orders !!

@LTseung: I hope we can confirm or correct your power measurements. You've done a nice presentation, so let's clean it up with unquestionable data and let the chips fall where they may.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: synchro1 on November 16, 2012, 11:23:26 AM

@TinselKoala,

Have you ever taken any accurate power readings on a JT circuit with your oscilliscope?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: pentiger on November 16, 2012, 11:48:32 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on November 16, 2012, 09:49:15 AM
Hi Guys . Feeling Good today . well ok .
Here is one of my latest builds from 4 that i am putting together on an Ebay sell . It's that time of the Year again and Baby needs Christmas Money .

This is PocketPower+ She will run the devices shown for 6 hours give take to 90% ..

What do you think is in it besides a 1.2 volt battery? The last Pic is a Cfl with the Guts out.
If anyone is interested i can make them a video i guess .

I am waiting for some smaller solar cells so it will be self charging as there is plenty of room on my little Black boxes .

Would it include a fuji circuit inside. I am very curious, it would be great if you could post a video. Also when you post it on ebay please send me a link to the auction. I will help you get some customers. :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on November 16, 2012, 12:32:41 PM

@Gadget,

That's a sweet little device you have there. I would love to see the guts of it, diagram or video.

Nice work....as usual!

:D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 16, 2012, 01:00:20 PM

Thank you Tk. I have parts for just 4 PocketPower+'s so they might sell.I Enjoy Your Educational videos and keen insight in all this electronic stuff.
Did you not get some very unusually high spikes off your small replication of my ua powered Jt. It look to me like your scope is showing spurious Spikes that can be harnessed for you know what :) But you are in front of it but man some of those peaks are off your scope range .
I am curious as to your ideas on looping this one .. I know it still needs current but if you can get it as low as 1/2 ua those spikes surely have a bit of punch in them ..

Ok Busy building and the sun if out after two days of darkness and a fireplace stoking , I'm out

@Stprue.. Let's just say i have shared it somewhere in this massive thread already . Thanks . i got one that is 1/4 this size but it is too small to put a plug or a toggle switch (has pushbutton and wires and watch battery) . I will be auctioning that one also . Almost finished with it and pic coming. i call it micropower+

Here is a Peek inside the PocketPower+ . as you can see the battery and plug take most if the room.The Circuit is Between the Switch and 110v outlet ..ok i know that blurry picture is a tease.Most here know i am not trying to hide anything and know that these circuits were posted many many times already by me and others.hint(mod)

here is a better one ;]

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: b_rads on November 16, 2012, 04:57:15 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on November 16, 2012, 10:40:49 AM
Oh No @Lakes . In fact Big Business came much later in the Ebay game . Most of original sellers are Hobbyist and every one knows you can sell ANYTHING . I have seen ever4ything including Plutonium and any drug chemical you can imagine .

Be aware that you can sell what you just bought at kmart and paid tax for to anyone TAX free .You can also sell anything you make and charge Sales tax in your state . Thats America for ya. Love it.

Examples of things that you make/sell are Bird houses ,bead bracelets ,homemade soap ,Free energy devices ,Plans, Ideas anything. You can sell your clippedcoupons or your old lady(or you) can sell her used underwear :) or even a picture in her underwear.You can sell an IDEA or a DREAM .I have see it all on Ebay and Craigslist.No Busniess required . A toothless homeless bum can sell his toenails(or a sample of his foot fungus for a microscope slide) if he has access to a computer and an address to get the money . (and he has a Buyer)

Big news here recently of a small boy being offered on craig's list. Turned out that it was a prank pulled by his older sister, and after promising not to list him agian, no charges were filed.
Let us know when you post these items on ebay - links would be great. The pocketpower with solar charger would be a cool "GADGET" to add to my collection.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: synchro1 on November 16, 2012, 05:16:16 PM

@gadgetmall,

Attaching a silicon polymer awning that pulled off a spring roller and proped up like a window shade would help keep the "Pocket Power" light gadget charged up!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 16, 2012, 05:43:06 PM

Quote from: synchro1 on November 16, 2012, 11:23:26 AM
@TinselKoala,

Have you ever taken any accurate power readings on a JT circuit with your oscilliscope?

No, but I have done so on other oscillating circuits. As I said, with an analog scope it's a rather complicated process. If you want to see how I do it, take a look at the spreadsheet I attach below.

As you can probably tell from the last video, a _really_ good JT, like the one gadgetmall has that will run an LED on one microamp.... is not going to be trivial to measure and I wouldn't even attempt it without special probes and current-monitoring resistors.... and a fully functional 4-channel scope with live math capability.
But I could measure one of my high-power ones, I suppose, if I didn't have better things to do, and I intend to help LTseung get accurate measurements on his FLEET if we can manage it. Why do you ask?

(scroll to the right on the spreadsheet to see the graphics)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 16, 2012, 06:01:32 PM

@gadget: Yes, the unit I built using your lowpower circuit makes some really tall (hv) and fast rise-time pulses, very short. The risetime is so fast that it's really at the limit of this old HP180a to resolve, and the voltage is high enough to cause arcing in the little toggle switch I use to switch the LEDs. It's awesome, and I don't even have it completely right yet, it's still drawing more current than it should I think, but less than any of the other JTs I've been fooling with. I put a really dead AAA in there and the light will glow dimly for days and days. I have even seen this, which is really weird: I'll put a really low battery in there, not enough for it even to start, and leave it. Then after five or ten minutes I'll take a look... and it's started, and glowing dimly !!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: synchro1 on November 16, 2012, 06:32:06 PM

@Tinselkoala,

Why? Why not as an expert in the field? The quest for evidence of Overunity. The kind of De-Mag power Zaev discovered, that JLN demonstrates, in his 2Sgen. The "Holygrail", St. Crispens day!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 16, 2012, 06:36:51 PM

Tk . I have seen some really weird things also and i believe you . the input capacitor builds up nicely on that circuit and a bit more than the input for some reason .The other Normal Jt circuits hardly notice that input cap. I have one replication of Lasers Ls3 . I run it on 2 Boost caps and let it run until it won't light a bulb anymore . I left it and the next day one Bcap was charged backwards almost 1.5 volts . That freaked me out and it appeared that cap was ruined but it took a while to reverse it once again in series with the other one at the correct polarity . I have not tried it again ..but i will .the difference in this one is it has a second primary and that primary was putting out 25 volts ac . I rectified it with one microwave diode and fed it into a 850mfd200 volt cap . I found that the extra primary set up this way keeps the unit running longer and starts a cfl faster that is the only difference in the others.So with that bulb in the circuit and it runs below the point of illuminating an led bulb it still was running and something caused it to feed backwards with a charge .. I did try to loop it but it stops it dead so far in either polarity .I will try full wave bridge next time and see if it helps .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 16, 2012, 10:42:06 PM

Gadget:

You have outdone yourself buddy! I hope you are ready to set up some kind of small assembly line over there once these hit ebay. I think you are going to need one. I will buy one....well...depending on the costs of course. Best of luck to you buddy and, I am telling you, you will sell a lot of these i am certain.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on November 17, 2012, 07:31:13 AM

@gadget

That's a nice little circuit you have there. Hummmm...maybe a little fuji transformer! Nice work!

@Pirate

I have not seen Jenna around for a while! Does anyone know why?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 17, 2012, 11:30:29 AM

Thanks Bill This is your thread and you inspired us all here with your resistor question that first started it all . Come to fine out no resistor needed ! Thank you for your moderation and friendship and i guess you have good reasons to hand over to Plengo who is also worthy of moderations in many ways.

Stprue . Thanks . and maybe something else in this one ? It all about practical use . Sure we would never be in the dark but it also powers plug in usb chargers which every one uses .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tagor on November 17, 2012, 11:56:05 AM

Quote from: stprue on November 17, 2012, 07:31:13 AM

@Pirate

I have not seen Jenna around for a while! Does anyone know why?

Quote from: Pirate88179 on September 14, 2012, 12:06:07 AM
Last I heard from Jeanna, she was moving way out into a small place in the woods where the internet does not run. She was buying some property and I don't even think there are any cell towers near by.

Yes, I miss that too.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 17, 2012, 01:30:37 PM

Theres always satellite for the boonies Internet and phone . I miss her too.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 17, 2012, 06:52:39 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on November 17, 2012, 11:30:29 AM
Thanks Bill This is your thread and you inspired us all here with your resistor question that first started it all . Come to fine out no resistor needed ! Thank you for your moderation and friendship and i guess you have good reasons to hand over to Plengo who is also worthy of moderations in many ways.

.

Al:

Thank you for your kind words. I appreciate them more than I can say. Thanks to your post, I just realized that I am no longer a Moderator here...I have no idea why? Maybe something got lost in the move that Stefan has just done...who knows?

The last I heard from Jeanna was that she was moving to a remoter area in Washington State that does not have electricity nor the internet. I hope she is doing well up there.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on November 18, 2012, 08:30:14 AM

She has been an inspiration to many of us here, and I hope she is doing well. Maybe one day she will return.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 18, 2012, 10:11:45 AM

For sure she has Electricity . She can make it with dirt . Well i know she has lights at least . And real power from solar and batteries .. I hope she is well . I never figured her for the pioneer type. At least she can NOW make a fortune in those woods because in her state Marijuana is now legal. That i hear is a cash crop.That would include 28.5 grams of hashish per their law to be sold and owned and used just as Alcohol for recreational use.

Man i wish i was young again. Loved the 60's and 70's . None of it touches my lips anymore but i do agree that it is safer than booze and i have no bias on who uses it . If it would help me i might try it if it was legal but remember i was a hippy in my youth . been there done that and the last time i took a hit made me more dizzy.I would never want my kids having it or booze so it is best to set an example of sobriety for them.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: ltseung888 on November 18, 2012, 10:29:03 PM

Quote from: TinselKoala on November 16, 2012, 10:57:00 AM
@gadgetmall: That is some nice stuff. I like the Black Box a lot. I'm sorry that I can't help out by buying one from you, but I'm impoverished myself..... the panel idea is also great. You'll have success on EBay I'm sure.

@LTseung: I hope we can confirm or correct your power measurements. You've done a nice presentation, so let's clean it up with unquestionable data and let the chips fall where they may.

This thread is growing too fast for me to keep up. My strength is in conceptual physics. See
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=1516.msg26592#new (http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=1516.msg26592#new).

If we can lead-out energy from Air molecules, we should be able to lead-out electron motion energy. All we need to do is to treat the arrows as dipoles (tiny magnets).

One aspect of the Joule Thief circuits is that many can light up LEDs but they have different efficiency. Initially, I used the simple Vpp as comparison index. I now use the AC coupling feature to get the full waveform for comparison.

There is no doubt that the basic JT provides a high pulse voltage (> 3V) to light the LED. One under test has 106V with no load. When I add the secondary and vary the load with variable resistors, I can hit on an AC Coupled COP greater than 5,000 and actual Output Power greater than 40 watts. With the 2n3055, G-LED and BSI can produce Output Power > 1KW from Input Power < 80 watts (as measured from DC Power Supply).

I shall double check and provide more data at the above link. A resonance-tuned JT (FLEET) is much more powerful than a normal JT.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: ltseung888 on November 18, 2012, 11:07:29 PM

Quote from: ltseung888 on November 18, 2012, 10:29:03 PM

This thread is growing too fast for me to keep up. My strength is in conceptual physics. See
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=1516.msg26592#new (http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=1516.msg26592#new).

If we can lead-out energy from Air molecules, we should be able to lead-out electron motion energy. All we need to do is to treat the arrows as dipoles (tiny magnets).

One aspect of the Joule Thief circuits is that many can light up LEDs but they have different efficiency. Initially, I used the simple Vpp as comparison index. I now use the AC coupling feature to get the full waveform for comparison.

There is no doubt that the basic JT provides a high pulse voltage (> 3V) to light the LED. One under test has 106V with no load. When I add the secondary and vary the load with variable resistors, I can hit on an AC Coupled COP greater than 5,000 and actual Output Power greater than 40 watts. With the 2n3055, G-LED and BSI can produce Output Power > 1KW from Input Power < 80 watts (as measured from DC Power Supply).

I shall double check and provide more data at the above link. A resonance-tuned JT (FLEET) is much more powerful than a normal JT.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB3sSus1-B4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB3sSus1-B4)

Some resonance effects. A capacitor was added to the JT. As the the charge of the capacitor is slowly drained to power the LEDs, the frequency of oscillation and hence the resonance condidtion changes.

The LEDs get brighter or dimmer as the circuit goes through different frequencies and thus different resonance peaks.
This shows the importance of resonance and resonance-tuning in JT research.

God Bless.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 19, 2012, 12:11:40 AM

QuoteOne aspect of the Joule Thief circuits is that many can light up LEDs but they have different efficiency. Initially, I used the simple Vpp as comparison index. I now use the AC coupling feature to get the full waveform for comparison.

There is no doubt that the basic JT provides a high pulse voltage (> 3V) to light the LED. One under test has 106V with no load. When I add the secondary and vary the load with variable resistors, I can hit on an AC Coupled COP greater than 5,000 and actual Output Power greater than 40 watts. With the 2n3055, G-LED and BSI can produce Output Power > 1KW from Input Power < 80 watts (as measured from DC Power Supply).

I see you did not absorb the messages of the videos I made for you.
Your claims are extravagantly inflated and are due to your lack of knowledge of power measurement and the use of your oscilloscope.

"one under test has 106V with no load"
This is a pitifully low figure, Lawrence. I have a JT sitting here right in front of me that charges a 22 uF capacitor to over 70 volts in under 30 seconds, with less than one volt input from a dead AAA battery. That's an LED JT.

My little 10mH neon JT charges that same cap to 200 V plus in seconds (I stop it to avoid damaging the cap). And this is actual DC voltage, that remains on the cap (until it leaks off) and can be used elsewhere. And that is running on a 1.34 volt AAA battery. And you boast about a reading of 106 V with no load, and claim OU and some special knowledge about JTs. I laugh at you, conceptual physicist.

So if you think you've got those massive outputs and those huge OU ratios... then you must conclude that I've got even more.

I've just made _another_ video illustrating the voltage measurement of over 200 volts output, captured on a capacitor, on less than one volt input. The capacitor has the virtue of capturing and integrating all the nice high voltage spikes and winds up charged to nearly the full peak voltage of the JT output-- very quickly. This is REAL, DC voltage, not some AC-coupled fiction on a 1-megohm impedance input scope screen.

The video is processing and uploading now, and should be ready in half an hour or so.

Also... .ENERGY is conserved. POWER.... not necessarily. If you think you can claim massive COP from instantaneous power measurements like you are doing now, you are just blowing smoke and fooling yourself.

And as far as your "divine revelation" drawing of air molecules goes... one would think that you've never been in an airplane, going 500 km/hr along with all of the air molecules inside. Do you suppose the pressure is greater at the back of the airplane's cabin, than it is at the front?

The video is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAkgwBS8q4A

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 19, 2012, 03:18:36 AM

Another, showing the actual no-load voltage of the 10mH NE-2 JT on the HP180a delayed-timebase analog oscilloscope:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vG9W2xUReg4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vG9W2xUReg4)

I just checked again and now that that battery has rested for a while, when I turned it on the spikes went to over 650 volts and it took a minute or so of running for them to drop back down to the level in the video above, around 520 volts.

(Note: I misread the timebase dial; the lefthand spikes are displayed at 0.1 ms/div, as anyone with functioning eyeballs can probably see. The righthand spike is correct, at 1 microsecond/div. Sorry about the light....)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 19, 2012, 07:22:24 PM

Nice Vids Tk.

@lawerance . your right you are just rolling over the resonance stuff we covered 3 or 4 years ago . Mk1 and Jeanna and all the original experimenters here mastered resonance a long time ago and i was the one who used a resonance tuned Jt to make the first aa powered heater light and you may know that Groundloop spent a lot of time on it to build a reciprocating circuit to recycle the massive 650 farad cap our jt charges up back into the little aa battery .
resonance was tediously done one wind at a time on both primary and secondarys . And the additions of tuned LCR tanks were introduce further ..
Me, i am not claiming anything any more for no one but me . I please me . If it make others happy replicating stuff i do to please themselves then great . Years ago i made a small Jt that produced over 3000 volts and it mess up TV's and radios 10 feet away and i called that circuit the TV disrupter . I posted the diagrams and shared my results . . They are all great circuits these blocking oscillators have been wired every way possible using the transistor all three ways and with 20+ secondaries . We know they work good . Build my 1ua circuit using the base and emitter as your output and see what i mean . when you get below 1/2 ua and power an led then logically the next step is get lower . in the nano amps . when you get there lets start analyzing how that works and would that be >1 . right now i believe that is the record for lighting from practically nothing.

I need some money . I wonder is anyone is interested in a completed boxed 1/2 ua led jt. I have one running for a couple of months off an aaa battery and it still can be turned on full bright with a twist of a pot. i think this circuit can light for years and years .. these light up with your hands holding two different metals . no battery required .
Anyway listen to Tk , He has superior knowledge on power measurements and keen insight . I am sure he wants what everyone wants and there are only a few i trust to calculate this to a fact.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 19, 2012, 09:31:30 PM

Heh... I really wish I could help out but I also am flat broke, I haven't even bought a new component in some weeks, I'm picking old TVs clean for parts.

And thanks for the "flowers" ... I mean well, I really do, even if I get a bit harsh sometimes.
I know how to use test equipment, but I'm way behind the rest of the experimenters here on actually building JTs, I just started a little while ago, although I've been reading the thread from the beginning and I too think Jeanna's work was awesome, a great example, and I hope she's doing well out in the "boonies".

Resonance is a great, almost magical phenomenon. It can really amplify power greatly... instantaneous power, that is. I also believe, on faith, that resonance phenomena of various kinds are the keys to tapping into the Wheelworks of Nature that Tesla talked about. This energy that surrounds us is not free... just a great bargain, if we can figure out how to get to it and tap into it. Or afford to... I think at this point that it requires physically large structures, on the order of the Wardenclyffe tower, to have much hope for success, but modern semiconductors and antenna technology just might prove me wrong someday.

I always try to remember one thing, though: the easiest person in the world to fool.... is yourself.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on November 19, 2012, 10:33:21 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on November 19, 2012, 07:22:24 PM
Nice Vids Tk.

I need some money . I wonder is anyone is interested in a completed boxed 1/2 ua led jt.

how much ?? pm me..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 20, 2012, 06:06:10 PM

Hey Kooler . It's not as high as a box of twinkies ;} http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-Box-of-Hostess-Twinkies-New-in-Box-Package-of-10-Best-if-Used-by-date-is-12-7-/251187318616?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a7bee4f58

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on November 20, 2012, 07:01:13 PM

Hi folks, Hi gadget, now that is funny, if it weren't so sad.
Anyone see the paradox.
Charging anything for food is the problem in the first place, it is no different than charging for the air we breathe.
This thinking is not what the manipulators of this world want us to be thinking, as it would quickly dissolve the control structures, as our thoughts are very powerful.
Even though it appears to be a humanitarian effort, the money will still be used to pay for basic human needs, which reinforces the control matrix of this realm.
Now back to the regularly scheduled program.
peace love light
tyson ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on November 20, 2012, 07:16:58 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on November 20, 2012, 06:06:10 PM
Hey Kooler . It's not as high as a box of twinkies ;} http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-Box-of-Hostess-Twinkies-New-in-Box-Package-of-10-Best-if-Used-by-date-is-12-7-/251187318616?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a7bee4f58 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-Box-of-Hostess-Twinkies-New-in-Box-Package-of-10-Best-if-Used-by-date-is-12-7-/251187318616?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a7bee4f58)

hey, look it has free shipping.. now thats a deal

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 20, 2012, 08:40:25 PM

Quote from: SkyWatcher123 on November 20, 2012, 07:01:13 PM
Hi folks, Hi gadget, now that is funny, if it weren't so sad.
Anyone see the paradox.
Charging anything for food is the problem in the first place, it is no different than charging for the air we breathe.
This thinking is not what the manipulators of this world want us to be thinking, as it would quickly dissolve the control structures, as our thoughts are very powerful.
Even though it appears to be a humanitarian effort, the money will still be used to pay for basic human needs, which reinforces the control matrix of this realm.
Now back to the regularly scheduled program.
peace love light
tyson ;)

Sure, OK. So you expect farmers to work for nothing then? And the food factory workers should also work for free? The fine folks selling the food at the supermarkets should work for free too? They have tried this many times...it is called communism and it does not work.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 20, 2012, 09:55:42 PM

I have to say i am kind a weird cause i don't like twinkies . I remember i was hungry and bought one . I took a bite out of it and it was half empty only to find maggots eating there way thru what was left of the "cream" This was when i was in my teens. I have never touched one since.

Hi Bill . Man have you found out why your thread is now under another captain ? I for one believe think it is a mistake as you moderated perfectly fine in your thread . You deserve better . Just look at all the circuits you inspired . Stephan needs to fix it .

Kooler thanks man . you are a Blessing Bro.

I almost have a video uploaded tonight for the PocketPower+ . I have already been contacted by a japan business lady who told me she can mass produce these things in a few weeks and sell the heck out of the design world wide as the hong kong and china investors like it a lot.. Wow. Don't know if i will allow it but it was nice that someone can do that so quickly . So i invited them to see my cheezzy video i told them id make . The problem is they will just take it anyways as it has no protection and is already been open sourced by me and others.
http://youtu.be/dKCoV-0LXoY

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on November 20, 2012, 10:24:46 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on November 20, 2012, 09:55:42 PM
I have to say i am kind a weird cause i don't like twinkies . I remember i was hungry and bought one . I took a bite out of it and it was half empty only to find maggots eating there way thru what was left of the "cream" This was when i was in my teens. I have never touched one since.

Hi Bill . Man have you found out why your thread is now under another captain ? I for one believe think it is a mistake as you moderated perfectly fine in your thread . You deserve better . Just look at all the circuits you inspired . Stephan needs to fix it .

Kooler thanks man . you are a Blessing Bro.

I almost have a video uploaded tonight for the PocketPower+ . I have already been contacted by a japan business lady who told me she can mass produce these things in a few weeks and sell the heck out of the design world wide as the hong kong and china investors like it a lot.. Wow. Don't know if i will allow it but it was nice that someone can do that so quickly . So i invited them to see my cheezzy video i told them id make . The problem is they will just take it anyways as it has no protection and is already been open sourced by me and others.
http://youtu.be/dKCoV-0LXoY (http://youtu.be/dKCoV-0LXoY)

@ gadgetmall...you said it right here!

"The problem is they will just take it anyways as it has no protection and is already been open sourced by me and others."

Maybe you should approach this deal in a open source way, an open source object cannot be manufactured if I recall correctly, maybe I'm wrong about that and if so please someone chime in before it's lost to mass production without royalties going into say a free energy fund or something of that nature.

Just rambling...P)

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: synchro1 on November 20, 2012, 10:47:07 PM

@Gadgetmall,

Get a contract with her. She wants you to help. I'll represent you, I'm a contract specialist.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 20, 2012, 11:03:30 PM

Yes, I agree, go for it. Often it's the designer, not just the design, that is important, especially in the East. Go for it, you might be able to make some big money, or at least a fairly big one-time hit that will get you past your current hard times.

I am so jealous.... but your hard work is paying off, congratulations and good for you.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Goat on November 20, 2012, 11:51:20 PM

Quote from: TinselKoala on November 20, 2012, 11:03:30 PM
Yes, I agree, go for it. Often it's the designer, not just the design, that is important, especially in the East. Go for it, you might be able to make some big money, or at least a fairly big one-time hit that will get you past your current hard times.

I am so jealous.... but your hard work is paying off, congratulations and good for you.

@ TinselKoala

I'm not trying to take away anything from what Gadgetmall has come up with, but in the spirit of open source projects....

"but your hard work is paying off"

I think that it was a group effort that brought change to this JT thread as far as improving circuits, there has been many contributions along the way that made this possible for Gadgetmall,is all that I'm trying to say, and I wish him the best in his endeavor to make this public.

There's no way a patent could be granted as such on this device unless I'm mistaken. And as such, being an open project my only wish is that Gdgetmall makes a hefty profit and that the rest be invested in free energy research in return, although I'm not sure how that could be done logistically, is there a free energy group ready to receive and dispurse the funds in place yet?

Regards,
Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 21, 2012, 12:32:14 AM

Hey, if he buys me a beer someday, that will be more than enough to repay me for my tiny contribution of building one of his circuits and confirming it works !!
He doesn't have to patent anything to make a profit from his work. He's the one that packaged the system nicely and showed that it didn't have to be a sprawling bunch of clipleads to work and be interesting. The companies who want to use his ideas... even if they are just nicely packaged versions of a group effort.... will be willing to make it worth his time, even if only as a "broker" or finder of the tech for them. Since I'm not heavily invested it's easy for me to say that he owes no one anything; others might feel differently .... but I still say "excellent" and "go for it"!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Djoko on November 21, 2012, 05:03:45 AM

@ TK
Nice Buit.
I buld similar to your mini SJR 3, but running with 12 V. I took inductor from dead cfl circuit. I will try to run on 1.5 V like yours.

Rgd
Dj

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on November 21, 2012, 05:55:34 AM

Hi,

Here is my version of the LaserSaber Joule Ringer CrossOver oscillator.

I could not get it to start oscillate without the resistor, but when it started up, I could remove the resistor.
My output goes to a 230VAC 3 Watt LED lamp. When the 3 Watt LED lamp has full brightness, then my
power supply did display 8.0 Volt @ 0,08 Ampere. If I tried to increase voltage above the 8 Volt, then
the brightness in the LED lamp did not increase. I did measure 47 VAC (average) over the LED lamp
wires when the lamp did reach full brightness. My transistor (the power NPN) did heat up just a very little
when the circuit was running. Already at 5 VDC @ 0,07 Ampere, the LED lamp has enough brightness
(very close to full) to read a book.

Thank you LaserSaber for open source such a nice circuit.

Added 1, seems like a wide band oscillator. Main RF energy at approx. 255KHz.

Added 2, estimated run time from a 9 Volt battery is approx. 9 hours with LED lamp at close to full brightness.

Added 3, current usage at 12 VDC was 0,1 Ampere. The LED lamp did not have any more brightness than at 8 VDC.

Groundloop.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 21, 2012, 06:22:23 AM

Hi Alex . good to see you. Thank you for Showing your circuit . he is using a cap again and you know i will try that one when i get time. I have yet to see a cap drive a large Led lamp from an electrolytic .

To all who actually work here. If anything comes of this i would never forget my friends and fellow experimenters and anyone who gave me inspiration to not only Us the actually ones who take it a step at a time with our hands but also from all the people that said it's just a blocking oscillator and no that won't work and i can't get it to work and your mod don't work and 1000's of hours of blind experimenting ,prodding probing measuring circuits wrong ,getting humiliated and picked on picked on in a round about way .

It is Thanksgiving and don't forget who you are that i am thankful for .

Tk. You know i would get that beer for ya . a case or keg. Right now though me and my daughter don't even have a place to go for thanks giving dinner or afford a Turkey so we will probably cook burgers on the grill :)

Happy Thanksgiving eve everyone

BTW nannygoat . That's my circuits mod in there and the way i did it was the way I Did it and no one else at that time. Build you own PocketPower+ by coping me or buy it from china if You want one because i told and showed everyone how to make them better in more than one thread many times over .

Lasersaber gave me a few nice comments on how I inspired him and He also inspires me .

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on November 21, 2012, 06:31:14 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on November 21, 2012, 06:22:23 AM
Hi Alex . good to see you. Thank you for Showing your circuit .

To all who actually work here. If anything come of this i would never forget my friends and fellow experimenters and anyone who gave me inspiration to not only Us the actually ones who take it a step at a time with our hands but also from all the people that said it's just a blocking oscillator and no that won't work and i can't get it to work and your mod don't work and 1000's of hours of blind experimenting ,prodding probing measuring circuits wrong ,getting humiliated and picked on picked on in a round about way .

It is Thanksgiving and don't forget who you are that i am thankful for .

Tk. You know i would get thta beer for ya . a case . Right now though me and my daughter don't even have a place to go for thanks giving dinner so we will probably cook burgers :)

Gadget

Hi Gadget,

Glad you are still around. The above posted circuit is the most amazing circuit I have ever tested!

Uses very little energy to light up my LED lamp. The LED lamp is not modified in any way.

I do not celebrate thanks giving, so I probably will have me a burger also. :-)

BTW: I tested the circuit on two AA batteries is series (3 VDC) and now I have a very nice night light.
I just need to solder in the 1M Ohm resistor permanently and my oscillator will start up every time I
turn on the LED lamp.

Regards,
GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on November 21, 2012, 07:06:08 AM

Hi folks, Hi pirate, this old saying applies well here, "don't kill the messenger".
The comments shared don't get any simpler than offered.
The reasons farmers and grocery workers do not share their products and services freely would be up to others to decide why this generally does not happen.
It is merely cause and effect.
If societal structures demand ink paper that a few others print virtually for free, then is it really a surprise that everything but the air we breathe requires some kind of payment.
Your comment pirate about communism, is the same face with a different mask.
You might be missing a wider perspective of my simple comments.
If no conditions are attached to all having their basic human needs met, then their will never, ever, be any incentive to profit from those needs or use those human needs as leverage or control to create power over others.
Label this simple message as you may, though the truth of it will never change.
Forgive the off topic message, though it was originally a reply to gadgets twinkie post and besides, this message actually will never be off topic anywhere, it is universal wisdom.
Now back to building cool oscillators.
peace love light
tyson ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on November 21, 2012, 07:11:17 AM

Hi,

I have also tried the attached version. This version also did need the 1M Ohm resistor to start oscillating.

And I did need to increase the input voltage to 12 VDC @ 0,08 Ampere to get the same light as with my
earlier 8 VDC input. This new circuit will also run very well from a 9 Volt battery. The current usage
at 9 Volt was 0,07 Amp.

I think the attached version is not as good as the first version. The transistor heats a little bit more
and waste energy. So I will go back to the first version.

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 21, 2012, 07:13:22 AM

EDIT **you got a double wammy beta gain and changed it from his npn pnp . I will try to incorporate my 1/2 micro amp npn circuit i posted using base emmiter or anyone else have at it.

thats what i mean when some one takes a circuit steps ahead it is new and they can do anything they want with them .

China copys everything regardless if it is copywrited or patented without permission . we all know there is a knockoff of every product made . Some are so good you never know like Levy's and Nike. i bet you anything they will have My design in a nice new preformed case with a euro/us plug on it . That was going to me my next little mod . there are outlets that allow both plugs in one.

have at it before it gets buried like all the other circuits ..

Corrected date because it is was cleaned up by someone from my notebook scrobblings .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on November 21, 2012, 07:30:50 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on November 21, 2012, 07:13:22 AM
Now that i look at your circuit it kind of look like the one I posted a few pages ago :) you got a double wammy beta gain and changed it from his npn pnp and the 1/2 micro amp npn circuit i posed using base emmer so there you go another original circuit.

thats what i mean when some one takes a circuit steps ahead it is new and they can do anything they want with them .

China copys everything regardless if it is copywrited or patented without permission . we all know there is a knockoff of every product made . Some are so good you never know like Levy's and Nike. i bet you anything they will have My design in a nice new preformed case with a euro/us plug on it . That was going to me my next little mod . there are outlets that allow both plugs in one.

Gadget,

I also tried the circuit posted by LaserSaber where the collector and emitter was opposite. The circuit did self start at approx. 9 Volt
input. But the current usage did sky rocket (above 1,5 Amp.) so I had to use the current limiter on my power supply to keep the current
down. I have to conclude that the first circuit I posted did work the best.

Added 1, The circuit did self start and did oscillate regardless of the wires at the output where I did connect the base of the 2N2222.
The self start did only happen above 7,7 VDC. And I had to use the current limiter on the power supply to keep the current down.

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 21, 2012, 07:38:27 AM

Sorry ,i got tunnel vision :) and 2 hours of sleep. i edited my previous post.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: lasersaber on November 21, 2012, 08:24:22 AM

@GroundLoop

Thanks for replicating the CrossOver circuit. I would like to post your schematic and observations over on LaserHacker forum. I have seen some strange stuff with this little circuit and need to post a video showing my latest results.

@GadgetMall

I would go for it with your PocketPower+ devices. I think you could also make some good money selling them yourself at a lower price in larger numbers. Did you get my e-mail I sent you from craigslist?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on November 21, 2012, 08:29:06 AM

Quote from: lasersaber on November 21, 2012, 08:24:22 AM
@GroundLoop

Thanks for replicating the CrossOver circuit. I would like to post your schematic and observations over on LaserHacker forum. I have seen some strange stuff with this little circuit and need to post a video showing my latest results.

@GadgetMall

I would go for it with your PocketPower+ devices. I think you could also make some good money selling them yourself at a lower price in larger numbers. Did you get my e-mail I sent you from craigslist?

LaserSaber,

All my posted circuit drawing is open source, so go ahead and post them in your forum.
I agree with you, it is a remarkable little circuit.
Did you get the emitter and collector of the 2N2222 switched in your drawing?

Groundloop.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: lasersaber on November 21, 2012, 08:39:37 AM

No I have not updated it yet. It only works one way so I must have it wrong.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 21, 2012, 09:29:00 AM

HI Lasersaber. Nice circuit once again !! . I agree that i have them priced too high and if it were not for the bank getting ready to snatch my home from me and my Daughter i would have them much cheaper . I hate begging for money . I have to come up with 2100 dollars for the dang hom2owners ins and the county taxes or the bank is going to get me in default of my mortgage agreement and that is why i am so desperate .

No i did not get any emails . The dang earthlink spam blocker is on the highest and it must be deleting my mail . i was getting 100% full every day and set it highest to keep my mail from bouncing . I guess that was a bad idea. you can reach me at fusionchip AT Gmail dot com if you wish.

I am dying to have some experimenting time and am surrying with this problem i have . I am just worried sick.
Anyways . I have not even had time to cut some more on My replication of Your Soln1 yet and it looks like just won't have any time to do it before my deadline .

Off topic and not electronic at all . some one gave me a long Vacuum tube thing yesterday along with their purchase of a Black box and i set it outside this morning and made a quick video . It is cold this morning and in 10 mins of overcast 33 degree wind this thing heated up inside warm . and another 10 mins it was over 180 degrees with the out side cloudy ,windy and near freezing outside .no sun good enuff for a solar panel but this tube is amazing. Just uploaded that clip http://youtu.be/q_LiO6XAxYE

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: lasersaber on November 21, 2012, 10:56:32 AM

@GadgetMall

I actually think your price is fine considering that you are making them in such small batches. I was trying to point out the fact that in larger numbers it will take you much less time per unit and the parts cost will also go down.

@GroundLoop

I updated the corrected schematic over at laserhacker.com.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on November 21, 2012, 01:14:49 PM

Quote from: lasersaber on November 21, 2012, 10:56:32 AM
@GadgetMall

I actually think your price is fine considering that you are making them in such small batches. I was trying to point out the fact that in larger numbers it will take you much less time per unit and the parts cost will also go down.

@GroundLoop

I updated the corrected schematic over at laserhacker.com.

LaserSaber,

You did not get the connection to the battery correct. The collector on the 2N2222 is going to the plus rail.
Attached is a corrected drawing of your corrected drawing. :-)

Added 1, Attached is my setup.

Regards,
GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on November 21, 2012, 01:38:50 PM

Hi folks, Was wondering why my fingers were posting off topic posts in this thread.
Gadgetmall quote,

Quote"I agree that i have them priced too high and if it were not for the bank getting ready to snatch my home from me and my Daughter i would have them much cheaper . I hate begging for money . I have to come up with 2100 dollars for the dang hom2owners ins and the county taxes or the bank is going to get me in default of my mortgage agreement and that is why i am so desperate."

And my previous words explain the cause,

Quote"If no conditions are attached to all having their basic needs met, then their will never, ever be any incentive to profit from those needs or use those human needs as leverage or control to create power over others."

Another old saying, something like placing the cart before the horse, applies to this scenario.
Small numbers of human beings benefit immensely from the ability to print ink paper money virtually for nothing or for that matter, any monetary instrument to get humanity to work for the money changers.
These same small number of humans know full well their is not enough ink paper (money) in circulation for everyone to continue to pay their mortgages.
Though that is not the main purpose of it all, the main purpose is to get others to have a belief in the value of money in any form it has taken over time.
This belief in worthless paper or other monetary tools, transfers power to these small number of human beings that print or mint the stuff virtually for free, thereby enabling them to wield great power over others and the ability to shape the societies within which many live.
You want the solution, unconditional love, was, is and will always be the solution.
Don't take my word for it, I know why I AM here to even be typing words on a keyboard, my parents unconditional love for me, provided all I needed when in younger years.
Anything less, is insanity and will only lead to imbalance and division of humanity.
Would suggest to let go of trying to play their money game, it cannot be won and in the process of trying to win their game, tends to reinforce division.
Remember the movie,'War Games', even the computer learned at the end of the movie, "The only winning move, is not to play the game".
peace love light and may the highest good of all be done.
tyson ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on November 21, 2012, 02:44:54 PM

Tyson, Gadget, and All:
Thank you for taking the time to state your views. If more of us would consider what's really happening to us all, things would change even faster than they are. Time will tell. But, will we all be here to see it??? A change for the better? An economic system that works? Not just printing out more worthless money that you won't even be able to use it to wipe your butt with.
THEY are trying to exterminate us all. Will we let them have their way???

Gadget, don't feel all alone, I'm also threading water, for as long as possible... and is why I'm doing my best to work and follow through on these projects, and to have them really do something usefull, not just play with more useless toys. Before the lights go out.

Lasersaber: thanks for posting your ongoing results, we do appreciate it, very, very, much.
I'll also have a whack at your newest Ringer circuit.

This next month will be the most important time of our lives... hold on to your hats, we're going in.
NickZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on November 21, 2012, 04:36:26 PM

Hi,

I have done a little more research on the circuit. I wanted to run the circuit from 2 AA batteries in series
and get more light out of the LED lamp. I assumed that if I reduced the number of turns on the primary
from 25 turn down to 20 turn, then I would get more output at a higher amp. draw on the input. I assumed
wrong. My circuit did not run at all with 20 turns! So instead I increased the number of turns to 29 and
now the circuit runs fine. So I assume that if I want a higher output voltage then I must increase the
number of turns on the secondary coil. I might be wrong on that also. :-) Have not tested this yet.

I have also tested the circuit on a larger LED lamp. A OSRAM 230 VAC 8 Watt lamp. The circuit did not oscillate
due to the higher load and less feed back to the base of the 2N2222 transistor. Maybe a variable resistor to give
the base of the 2N2222 transistor a bias voltage will help. I have not tested this yet.

Added 1, I have now tested the circuit with a 10K variable resistor. Works great. Circuit auto start at power up.
I can adjust the current usage and get what ever light output I want in the LED lamp. Current usage do go up
at higher bias voltages and transistor get warmer at higher wattage, but this is to be expected.

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: plengo on November 21, 2012, 05:14:35 PM

Quote from: Groundloop on November 21, 2012, 06:31:14 AM
The above posted circuit is the most amazing circuit I have ever tested!
Regards,
GL.

If you say that Alex, I must admit, it is indeed than. I know that you have done a gazillion of experiments. Do you still have that site of yours?

Fausto.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on November 21, 2012, 05:41:02 PM

Quote from: plengo on November 21, 2012, 05:14:35 PM

If you say that Alex, I must admit, it is indeed than. I know that you have done a gazillion of experiments. Do you still have that site of yours?

Fausto.

Fausto,

Hello, long time since we talked. No, my web site is reduced to just a few files. But I still have a backup of every circuit tests done.
This circuit from LaserSaber is very fun to tests. At higher wattage the circuit starts to pour out RF energy all over the band. I even
got a small RF burn on my finger touching the collector on the power transistor and the light did dim when I got the energy.

So to you all out there researching this circuit, be careful the circuit can bite at higher wattage. I have attached a frequency scan
when I ran the circuit on 3 Volt @ 0,5 Ampere. The frequency scan goes from 0 to 50MHz. My pick up antenna is very close to the
circuit so I'm not transmitting much RF around. The power transistor that I'm using can switch well up to approx. 4MHz. I can
see RF energy all the way up to above 50MHz.

One thing is for sure, if you want to light LED lamps from a battery then this circuit will do that fine.

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 22, 2012, 11:02:33 AM

I listed one on Ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=251188497174

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 22, 2012, 11:40:41 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on November 20, 2012, 09:55:42 PM

Hi Bill . Man have you found out why your thread is now under another captain ? I for one believe think it is a mistake as you moderated perfectly fine in your thread . You deserve better . Just look at all the circuits you inspired . Stephan needs to fix it .

I still have no idea why. I have not heard anything. Thank you very much for posting this. I really appreciate your words.

I hope you sell 1 million (or more) of your devices on Ebay and have to set up some large assembly lines to keep up with the demand.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: plengo on November 22, 2012, 02:32:59 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on November 22, 2012, 11:40:41 AM
I still have no idea why. I have not heard anything. Thank you very much for posting this. I really appreciate your words.

I hope you sell 1 million (or more) of your devices on Ebay and have to set up some large assembly lines to keep up with the demand.

Bill

Hi Bill,

I sent you a PM concerning moderation rights. I am confused myself why Stefan put me as the moderator here. I asked him only moderation rights over two threads only the "Joule Ringer V4" (or something like that) and my Crystal Cell Research.

I have no intention of taking over for you. If you want it back, please, send an email to Stefan.

Fausto.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hartiberlin on November 22, 2012, 02:46:58 PM

Quote from: Groundloop on November 21, 2012, 04:36:26 PM
Hi,

I have done a little more research on the circuit. I wanted to run the circuit from 2 AA batteries in series
and get more light out of the LED lamp. I assumed that if I reduced the number of turns on the primary
from 25 turn down to 20 turn, then I would get more output at a higher amp. draw on the input. I assumed
wrong. My circuit did not run at all with 20 turns! So instead I increased the number of turns to 29 and
now the circuit runs fine. So I assume that if I want a higher output voltage then I must increase the
number of turns on the secondary coil. I might be wrong on that also. :-) Have not tested this yet.

I have also tested the circuit on a larger LED lamp. A OSRAM 230 VAC 8 Watt lamp. The circuit did not oscillate
due to the higher load and less feed back to the base of the 2N2222 transistor. Maybe a variable resistor to give
the base of the 2N2222 transistor a bias voltage will help. I have not tested this yet.

Added 1, I have now tested the circuit with a 10K variable resistor. Works great. Circuit auto start at power up.
I can adjust the current usage and get what ever light output I want in the LED lamp. Current usage do go up
at higher bias voltages and transistor get warmer at higher wattage, but this is to be expected.

GL.

Hi GL,
well done.

I am also trying to replicate the new circuit over here from Laserhacker:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zt5zulKQ1XE

The video is pretty confusing.

Where does he connect the ground wire ?
to the other pole of the LED bulb, where not the base is connected ?

WHat is this graetz bridge rectifier doing there ?

It seems he can just run it from his body electricity and the other side of the circuit is just only connected to the ground ?

Regards, Stefan.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: plengo on November 22, 2012, 03:16:09 PM

Fella Overunity members,

moderation rights resolved. Things are back to normal again, Groundloop and Bill are the moderators now.

I never had the intention to disturb the forum, so please forgive me for the incident. Stefan has fixed the whole issue.

Lets again, continue the great work.

Fausto.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on November 22, 2012, 03:23:40 PM

Quote from: hartiberlin on November 22, 2012, 02:46:58 PM
Hi GL,
well done.

I am also trying to replicate the new circuit over here from Laserhacker:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zt5zulKQ1XE

The video is pretty confusing.

Where does he connect the ground wire ?
to the other pole of the LED bulb, where not the base is connected ?

WHat is this graetz bridge rectifier doing there ?

It seems he can just run it from his body electricity and the other side of the circuit is just only connected to the ground ?

Regards, Stefan.

Hi Stefan,

I did read (over at the laserhacker forum) that you only have darlington transistors to try. I have tried darlington
transistors in this circuit and it did not work well. The reason is that the darlington has a built in diode over
the collector and emitter. The darlington also have base resistors built in. The built in diode is "killing" the
negative oscillation to ground. And I also noted that the darlington transistors heated up in this circuit.

Best result is with a relative high voltage power NPN and a small signal transistor like the 2N2222.

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on November 22, 2012, 03:26:52 PM

Quote from: plengo on November 22, 2012, 03:16:09 PM
Fella Overunity members,

moderation rights resolved. Things are back to normal again, Groundloop and Bill are the moderators now.

I never had the intention to disturb the forum, so please forgive me for the incident. Stefan has fixed the whole issue.

Lets again, continue the great work.

Fausto.

Fausto,

And you are also a moderator. Better with several moderators so that vi can cover the different timezones.

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hartiberlin on November 22, 2012, 03:42:58 PM

Quote from: Groundloop on November 22, 2012, 03:23:40 PM
Hi Stefan,

I did read (over at the laserhacker forum) that you only have darlington transistors to try. I have tried darlington
transistors in this circuit and it did not work well. The reason is that the darlington has a built in diode over
the collector and emitter. The darlington also have base resistors built in. The built in diode is "killing" the
negative oscillation to ground. And I also noted that the darlington transistors heated up in this circuit.

Best result is with a relative high voltage power NPN and a small signal transistor like the 2N2222.

GL.

Okay, I see.

I only have here BD 139, MJE 1100 and PNP Darlington
BDV66B

And a few MOSFETS like IRF 640 and IRF 840.

Can you get it to work with an IRF 840, because that is the cheapest MOSFET transistor ?

I guess MJE1100 does not have an internal diode but base resistors...

Hmm, these Datasheets are showing sometimes wrong pin connections... so you have to be carefull
noit to mix it up.... I just struggled to get a basic darlington to switch right...I had the pin connection wrong
from the datasheet, sometimes they show the view from above and sometimes from below from the
heat sink back view...Damn... I don´t have a 3055 here right now...

Regards, Stefan.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hartiberlin on November 22, 2012, 03:45:09 PM

Yes, Laserhackers last video is pretty confusing...

Here he did not tell, wher he connected his ground wire too...

http://laserhacker.com/forum/index.php?topic=70

Probably to the other pole of the LED bulb.
But it seems in the video he also has a greatz rectifier bridge in there....

Does anyone already spoke with Laserhacker and asked him about this ?

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on November 22, 2012, 03:48:33 PM

Hi Alex
Just drop by to say hello
As for the water batteries.... forget it as the Inventor would not open source it and finally new ones had emerged and continuing to do so......
With the latest video of Laser on the ground connection.....
Maybe we can try a dual source a dc and a dipole ground on the primary as T 1000 had been telling all along ( see 411 of his post)
One Wire Safe Energy
and Alex, I think you were ahead of Thanes on that Bi toroid LOL

Thanks again my friend
totoalas :) ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hartiberlin on November 22, 2012, 03:54:31 PM

Hi GL,
can you or anybody else tell me, why in a DC circuit to test the Darlington transistor
a Darlington MJE1100 is not able to switch a load,
if one touches with the base the positive 12 Volt supply voltage ( e.g. from a battery) and just switches
an incandescent 12 Volt lamp at the collector (emitter is at ground and the lamp is from collector to plus pole of the battery) ???

Very strange !

It only works to switch the light on when I connect the collector to the basis !

Very strange.. Is my MJE1100 defective ?

Was the same with the BDV66B, although it is PNP when I used the reversed supply polarity...

Somehow the Darlingtons seem to work differently than normal transistors...

I thought they would just have higher current amplifications ??

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on November 22, 2012, 03:56:29 PM

Quote from: hartiberlin on November 22, 2012, 03:42:58 PM
Okay, I see.

I only have here BD 139, MJE 1100 and PNP Darlington
BDV66B

And a few MOSFETS like IRF 640 and IRF 840.

Can you get it to work with an IRF 840, because that is the cheapest MOSFET transistor ?

I guess MJE1100 does not have an internal diode but base resistors...

Hmm, these Datasheets are showing sometimes wrong pin connections... so you have to be carefull
noit to mix it up.... I just struggled to get a basic darlington to switch right...I had the pin connection wrong
from the datasheet, sometimes they show the view from above and sometimes from below from the
heat sink back view...Damn... I don´t have a 3055 here right now...

Regards, Stefan.

Stefan,

The MJE110 is a darlington without the diode. But it still have a 10K from the first transistor base and 150 Ohm at the
second transistor base. This transistor may work but I think you will need a resistor from base to plus rail to keep
the oscillator going.

I have not tried any mosfets in this circuit so I can't tell if mosfets will work. As far as I know, all mosfets has the body diode.

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on November 22, 2012, 03:59:47 PM

Quote from: totoalas on November 22, 2012, 03:48:33 PM
Hi Alex
Just drop by to say hello
As for the water batteries.... forget it as the Inventor would not open source it and finally new ones had emerged and continuing to do so......
With the latest video of Laser on the ground connection.....
Maybe we can try a dual source a dc and a dipole ground on the primary as T 1000 had been telling all along ( see 411 of his post)
One Wire Safe Energy
and Alex, I think you were ahead of Thanes on that Bi toroid LOL

Thanks again my friend
totoalas :) ;)

Hi Totoalas,

Yes, I have realized that you could not get any info from the inventor of the water batteries. So I have stopped thinking about that.
Thanks for dropping by. :-)

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 22, 2012, 04:03:22 PM

I have found that without some sort of L or C that is takes a low resistance load to "fire" a high resistance load . ie put an incandescent bulb momentarily across an led bulb . this is at a lower input voltage below 5 VCD,

Congrats on the finest bunch of Mods anywhere !

i am not worthy of moderation and can have moments of insanity :)

Thank you Stephan and Great Choices !

gadget
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hartiberlin on November 22, 2012, 04:04:23 PM

Hi Groundloop,
many thanks.
I will try to hook another transistor to the base of the MJE1100 so I will
have a 3 transistor Darlington...
I still have a few smaller NPN transistors here...

Well, does anybody know,
where Laserhacker does connect this graetz brdige rectifier in his new video ?

It is very hard to see in the video as he pans back and forth....

Also I had seen 2 videos from a guy on youtube, where he just used 2 different metals to power some kind
of Joule Thief...
In his second video he used his window metal frame and a ground rod outside...

But I don´t find this video anymore...
He did not use a battery at all and he said, he could power his coil this way....
He was using a transistor to switch it and looked simular to a Joule Thief circuit...

DOes anybody still find this video on YOutube ?

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on November 22, 2012, 04:14:47 PM

Quote from: hartiberlin on November 22, 2012, 03:54:31 PM
Hi GL,
can you or anybody else tell me, why in a DC circuit to test the Darlington transistor
a Darlington MJE1100 is not able to switch a load,
if one touches with the base the positive 12 Volt supply voltage ( e.g. from a battery) and just switches
an incandescent 12 Volt lamp at the collector (emitter is at ground and the lamp is from collector to plus pole of the battery) ???

Very strange !

It only works to switch the light on when I connect the collector to the basis !

Very strange.. Is my MJE1100 defective ?

Was the same with the BDV66B, although it is PNP when I used the reversed supply polarity...

Somehow the Darlingtons seem to work differently than normal transistors...

I thought they would just have higher current amplifications ??

Stefan,

Are you sure you get the pins correct on the MJE1100?

Se attached pinout.

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hartiberlin on November 22, 2012, 05:32:11 PM

Hi GL,
is the upper left picture a top view or a bottom view ?

Yes, that was the problem with the MJE1100 datasheet !

Now I have got a MJE1100 and a BD139 connected as a new
Darlington pair and got my LED bulb running on the cap,
but I don´t get this blinking effect.

I can only get it to light up , when I permantly connect the 12 Volts supply via my 15000 uF cap.

Still have a 25 K pot across this cap and a 5.6 KOhm resistor going to the base of the new darlington
to tune the base potential....

ALso I don´t know, where Laserhacker put his graetz bridge to...

Have to leave the house now.... Will experiment tommorow further on,
when we know, where Laserhacker did connect his rectifier bridge...

Regards, Stefan.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 22, 2012, 05:33:17 PM

Wow.... I fell behind there, got a lot of catching up to do, I can tell..... but meanwhile....

@GL: If you want more output voltage you need more inductance I think. The total inductance of both coils (or coil segments) is the key, I think. The voltage spikes on the output come from the collapse of the field in the inductor(s), so you get more voltage in two ways: increase current for more field -- this is done by raising the input voltage, not what we want necessarily, or increase inductance for more field in the inductor, by adding windings or using different core materials.
If both coils are wound on a single core like most of us are using (but not Sohei Thoth, very nice work there) then changing the core will affect both coils, obviously, or the inductances can be varied separately by varying the number of turns.
My best HVJT uses a 10mH inductor from an old TV set, looks like about 300 turns on a cylinder of good ferrite, and I wound 30 turns of heavier wire on top of that for a "primary". It makes well over 600 volts no-load on a "dead" AAA input, and can charge up external caps very quickly thru a diode rectifier.
I have not yet sorted whether or not it is the primary inductance or the secondary inductance separately that is more important for HV.

OK, back to catching up.....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hartiberlin on November 22, 2012, 05:38:48 PM

P.S: I have the same circuit as this now:
http://www.overunity.com/6123/jule-thief/dlattach/attach/117923/ (http://www.overunity.com/6123/jule-thief/dlattach/attach/117923/)

but I have a 25 K linear Pot instead of the 10 K Pot and instead of the power supply
I have a 15.000 uF cap and I also have a 5.6 K resistor going from the mid tap of the pot to
the base.

Instead of the 2N2222 I have a BD 139 and instead of the 2N3055 I have a MJE1100.

I also have a transformer with Metglas or iron tape core ( don´t know, bought cheaply
from an electronics store...)
with the primary having about 15 turns and the secondary having 100 turns.
I have a 230 Volts AC 3 Watts LED bulb.

Hope this helps.

Regards, Stefan.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hartiberlin on November 22, 2012, 05:40:17 PM

P.S: Tommorow I will use my scope to see, what is going on...

Regards, Stefan.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on November 22, 2012, 05:44:36 PM

Quote from: hartiberlin on November 22, 2012, 05:32:11 PM
Hi GL,
is the upper left picture a top view or a bottom view ?

Yes, that was the problem with the MJE1100 datasheet !

Now I have got a MJE1100 and a BD139 connected as a new
Darlington pair and got my LED bulb running on the cap,
but I don´t get this blinking effect.

I can only get it to light up , when I permantly connect the 12 Volts supply via my 15000 uF cap.

Still have a 25 K pot across this cap and a 5.6 KOhm resistor going to the base of the new darlington
to tune the base potential....

ALso I don´t know, where Laserhacker put his graetz bridge to...

Have to leave the house now.... Will experiment tommorow further on,
when we know, where Laserhacker did connect his rectifier bridge...

Regards, Stefan.

Stefan,

Normally all data sheets display the transistor top view.

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hartiberlin on November 22, 2012, 05:48:01 PM

Quote from: Groundloop on November 22, 2012, 05:44:36 PM
Stefan,

Normally all data sheets display the transistor top view.

GL.

Yes, but I also had some problems with nonworking croco cables and contact problems...

Never work with these awfull crococables... but I now don´t find my wood plank, where I wanted to
use nails to solder it all on...

Have to go...

Hopefully Laserhacker will be still around today and will tell use the new exact circuit diagramm
with screwing it up again 2 times ! ;) Lol ! ;)

Regards, Stefan.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on November 22, 2012, 05:49:37 PM

Quote from: TinselKoala on November 22, 2012, 05:33:17 PM
Wow.... I fell behind there, got a lot of catching up to do, I can tell..... but meanwhile....

@GL: If you want more output voltage you need more inductance I think. The total inductance of both coils (or coil segments) is the key, I think. The voltage spikes on the output come from the collapse of the field in the inductor(s), so you get more voltage in two ways: increase current for more field -- this is done by raising the input voltage, not what we want necessarily, or increase inductance for more field in the inductor, by adding windings or using different core materials.
If both coils are wound on a single core like most of us are using (but not Sohei Thoth, very nice work there) then changing the core will affect both coils, obviously, or the inductances can be varied separately by varying the number of turns.
My best HVJT uses a 10mH inductor from an old TV set, looks like about 300 turns on a cylinder of good ferrite, and I wound 30 turns of heavier wire on top of that for a "primary". It makes well over 600 volts no-load on a "dead" AAA input, and can charge up external caps very quickly thru a diode rectifier.
I have not yet sorted whether or not it is the primary inductance or the secondary inductance separately that is more important for HV.

OK, back to catching up.....

TK,

I understand what you are saying. That was also my conclusion.
But there is more to this circuit. I recommend that you build it and test it.
It is a fun circuit to play with and probably a very useful circuit when we want
to power LED lamps from batteries. I did try some ceramic capacitors over
the output and the light in the LED bulb did increase. Also the LED brightness
goes down when I connect an antenna to the collector of the power NPN.
Need to test more on this later on.

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on November 22, 2012, 05:53:00 PM

Quote from: hartiberlin on November 22, 2012, 05:48:01 PM
Yes, but I also had some problems with nonworking croco v´cables and contact problems...

Never work with these awfull crococables... but I now don´t find my wood plank, where I wanted to
use nails to solder it all on...

Have to go...

Hopefully Laserhacker will be still around today and will tell use the new exact circuit diagramm
with screwing it up again 2 times ! ;) Lol ! ;)

Regards, Stefan.

Stefan,

I also is looking forward to a circuit drawing from LaserSaber.

I will test more this weekend................

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 22, 2012, 05:54:40 PM

RE mosfets: they switch by charge (voltage) not base-emitter current like bipolar transistors. Most mosfets need at least 4 volts (but negligible current) on the gate to begin to turn on and 6 or more for solid turnon (logic level can switch fully with 5 volts on gate), and are easily damaged by HV (read 20 volts over the Source pin voltage) spikes to the gate. This means that they are not going to work as the primary transistor in a JT, I think. However it might be possible to use a mosfet, with a little fiddling with resistors, as the second, driven transistor in the 2-transistor designs above. I am going to have to confirm both these results experimentally, but that's what I'm thinking now.
My LED ring oscillator uses 2n7000 mosfets and sometimes acts strangely when I drive it with the JT but I haven't failed any of its mosfets yet. The 2n7000 is a great little mini-mosfet, it's the "2n2222" of the mosfet world. Since these are so cheap (about a dollar or less each) I'd suggest trying one of them first in a hybrid design, driven by the 2n2222 or 2n3904.
The body diode is a result of the manufacturing process; not all mosfet _symbols_ show it -- most 2n7000 symbols don't-- but it's there to some degree in all mosfets I know about including the 7000.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 22, 2012, 06:02:35 PM

Quote from: hartiberlin on November 22, 2012, 05:48:01 PM
Yes, but I also had some problems with nonworking croco v´cables and contact problems...

Never work with these awfull crococables... but I now don´t find my wood plank, where I wanted to
use nails to solder it all on...

Have to go...

Hopefully Laserhacker will be still around today and will tell use the new exact circuit diagramm
with screwing it up again 2 times ! ;) Lol ! ;)

Regards, Stefan.

Or use them as little as possible. They really are terrible. The ones you get cheaply at discount stores hardly have any copper wire in them at all, just thick insulation with a tiny bit of actual wire. The clips are crimped to the wire and it's easy to break the crimps, get partial or intermittent connections. I always take them apart and solder the wires to the clips, and do spend the money to get the ones with "real wire" instead of the tiny cheap stuff!

It is also very easy to make wiring mistakes, to get effects due to impossible-to-reproduce stray inductances, and to create really dangerous situations if you work with really really high voltages, as I do. I am always "shocked" when I see someone demonstrating, say, a flyback driver at 20 kV using clipleads. What are you gonna do if the cat jumps up onto the table?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 22, 2012, 06:11:37 PM

Quote from: Groundloop on November 22, 2012, 05:49:37 PM
TK,

I understand what you are saying. That was also my conclusion.
But there is more to this circuit. I recommend that you build it and test it.
It is a fun circuit to play with and probably a very useful circuit when we want
to power LED lamps from batteries. I did try some ceramic capacitors over
the output and the light in the LED bulb did increase. Also the LED brightness
goes down when I connect an antenna to the collector of the power NPN.
Need to test more on this later on.

GL.

That is my plan for the evening, after dinner. I just discovered that I have a 2sd2539 that I pulled from an old TV set, also a 2sd870, plenty of 2n2222s and 3904s, even some 2n4234 and TIP42 PNPs, and I have a box full of all kinds of mosfets. What I don't have is one of the 3 Watt, line-powered LED bulbs.

Does anyone know the power supply circuitry inside these mains-powered LED bulbs? Is there a schematic I could look at somewhere?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: wings on November 22, 2012, 06:34:56 PM

Quote from: TinselKoala on November 22, 2012, 06:11:37 PM
That is my plan for the evening, after dinner. I just discovered that I have a 2sd2539 that I pulled from an old TV set, also a 2sd870, plenty of 2n2222s and 3904s, even some 2n4234 and TIP42 PNPs, and I have a box full of all kinds of mosfets. What I don't have is one of the 3 Watt, line-powered LED bulbs.

Does anyone know the power supply circuitry inside these mains-powered LED bulbs? Is there a schematic I could look at somewhere?

http://www.powerint.com/sites/default/files/PDFFiles/rdr271.pdf

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 22, 2012, 07:05:13 PM

Thank you Wings!!

FWIW, here's my 10mH JT lighting 4 x 90 Volt NE-2 neons in series, running on one depleted AAA battery at 0.93 volts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hartiberlin on November 22, 2012, 07:09:12 PM

Nice lights TK and thanks for your useful tips on MOSFETs.

Well,

again any idea ? :

I had seen 2 videos from a guy on youtube, where he just used 2 different metals to power a coil via some kind
of Joule Thief...
In his second video he used his window metal frame and a ground rod outside...

But I don´t find this video anymore...
He did not use a battery at all and he said, he could power his coil this way....
He was using a transistor to switch it and looked simular to a Joule Thief circuit...

Does anybody still find this video on YOutube ?

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hartiberlin on November 22, 2012, 07:14:31 PM

There was just posted a circuit diagramm here:

http://laserhacker.com/forum/index.php?topic=70.msg634#msg634

I copy it here also for all to see directly here:

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hartiberlin on November 22, 2012, 07:16:53 PM

I guess there is still an error as both collectors of the 2 transistors will need to be connected together...
and NOT VT1 to the powersupply cap !

Regards, Stefan.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 22, 2012, 08:35:36 PM

Stephan i am up and running with the diagram posted and corrected by ground loop .The collectors are NOT connected together and the above diagram looks wrong .. .. WOW . i don't think it can be measured correctly with digital meters . I am using his exact cap with a 5 volt lipo . I am lighting a 220 volt led bulb with just one wire . This circuit even untuned draws nothing and appears to charge up more than you start with ..

the reason i say it can't be measured is because with the meter across the cap with the circuit off i read 4.98 vdc with it on it increases to now 5.03 . also i am using his Ecore . it it brighter with the ferrite out of it . AIR CORE Cool circuit .

Mine is wound with about 3000 turns secondary and 15 turns primary but i have not got it to resonate on the cap alone . I have got shocked with the battery disconnected and see the led bulb flickers when i move the ecore in and out .

Where is Tk he need to try this . This IS wILD

EDIT . Oh . pay to refresh ;) TK NICE !!!! . hey if you get a chance try the circuit ground loop posted of laster sabers . it is VERY Interesting . Why would a battery go up in voltage on his circuit . Im scared one wire too ...

dare i say it >1 .. I am uploading my experiment . Please excuse the mess and whittlings on the bench . i need to cleaan it . I think this is a very nice low power circuit .Also it will run from a 1.5 volts . I need to wind the primary until it starts everytime..

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 22, 2012, 10:21:17 PM

Things are moving fast, aren't they.

Quote"hey if you get a chance try the circuit ground loop posted of laster sabers . it is VERY Interesting . "

OK.... is the circuit just above that Stefan posted, the one we are talking about here? No corrections? The diodes like that, and the free wire, what does it mean "conductor, placed on the transformer"? Is this the wire that provides the HV output?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hoptoad on November 22, 2012, 11:14:01 PM

Quote from: TinselKoala on November 22, 2012, 07:05:13 PM
FWIW, here's my 10mH JT lighting 4 x 90 Volt NE-2 neons in series, running on one depleted AAA battery at 0.93 volts.

Great, neat, tidy little package and presentation. No Birds nests there! (think rose LOL)

Cheers

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on November 22, 2012, 11:16:44 PM

Quote from: TinselKoala on November 22, 2012, 10:21:17 PM
Things are moving fast, aren't they.

OK.... is the circuit just above that Stefan posted, the one we are talking about here? No corrections? The diodes like that, and the free wire, what does it mean "conductor, placed on the transformer"? Is this the wire that provides the HV output?

it is a wire from the bridge to the core of the transformer..
i have used this on transformers that i pulse with a capacitor..

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hoptoad on November 22, 2012, 11:35:54 PM

Quote from: kooler on November 22, 2012, 11:16:44 PM
it is a wire from the bridge to the core of the transformer.. i have used this on transformers that i pulse with a capacitor.. robbie

It might produce an interesting influence on the circuit. :-\

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 23, 2012, 12:23:37 AM

I have hollered enough for tonight I kept getting bit and and hollering AHH and my daughter got tired of it then i came back to it and man i grabbed/touched something and i holler AHHHHHHHHH . That all for tonight . it's running off a c cell one wire led cfl neons i am thru .The E core buzzes and delivers a killer rush..

Tk this one . I haven't got that far as this one is somehow feeding the supply cap and lipo batteries . I tried an unltracap and both transistors glowed like a heater element .(SH%$^) this time i mounted them but My LS2 Ecore it too powerful and i am afraid my led bulbs will blow . . will wind a different one tomorrow as i see it will work AIR CORE.. I used my Ls2 transformer that i modified . 3000 secondary and 15 secondary but i am playing with the windings to find the self start point for the primary . I got major high voltage and major low input as it is just need a kick to start it on 1 volt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKKcKpnzvAY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKKcKpnzvAY)

I cant wait to try the Bridge
Nite

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on November 23, 2012, 12:55:17 AM

Quote from: hartiberlin on November 22, 2012, 07:16:53 PM
I guess there is still an error as both collectors of the 2 transistors will need to be connected together...
and NOT VT1 to the powersupply cap !

Regards, Stefan.

Stefan,

No, I think he got it right. I have the collector of the 2N2222 directly to the plus rail.

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on November 23, 2012, 01:26:41 AM

Stefan and All:
I normally have used the TIP 3055 transistor on several of my versions of the Lasersaber 2.0 or 3.0 versions with good success. That transistor which is sold by Radio Shack and is really an MJE 3055T, according to the info on the transistor itself, written right on it.
The diagram of the list of the MJE transistors that are in the previous post above is the view from the back side, not the front. So, the B and E are really reversed if you look at it from the plastic front view. That transistor works as well as the 2n3055 but will heat up in a similar manner, so it will also need a heat-sink when using 12v or so, and higher wattage bulbs for a load.
To find the best place to connect the outside earth ground, just try it on different point on the circuit, and watch which point gives the best increased output brightness on the bulb. I place my ground connection on the transistor metal body on both the 2n3055, or the MJE 3055T (TIP 3055).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 23, 2012, 01:38:23 AM

Quote from: hartiberlin on November 22, 2012, 04:04:23 PM
Hi Groundloop,
many thanks.
I will try to hook another transistor to the base of the MJE1100 so I will
have a 3 transistor Darlington...
I still have a few smaller NPN transistors here...

Well, does anybody know,
where Laserhacker does connect this graetz brdige rectifier in his new video ?

It is very hard to see in the video as he pans back and forth....

Also I had seen 2 videos from a guy on youtube, where he just used 2 different metals to power some kind
of Joule Thief...
In his second video he used his window metal frame and a ground rod outside...

But I don´t find this video anymore...
He did not use a battery at all and he said, he could power his coil this way....
He was using a transistor to switch it and looked simular to a Joule Thief circuit...

DOes anybody still find this video on YOutube ?

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

This is the circuit for 1/2ua . It will power up with two different metals in your hand .needs only a fraction of a microamp not milli MICRO. I posted the circuit some where in 2009 ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 23, 2012, 02:04:34 AM

Quote from: hartiberlin on November 22, 2012, 07:16:53 PM
I guess there is still an error as both collectors of the 2 transistors will need to be connected together...
and NOT VT1 to the powersupply cap !

Regards, Stefan.

Yes the bridge circuit looks wrong. Start with the original one then we figure out where the Bridge went . The ground is either on one of the secondary windings on LED or output . I got almost full bright modified CFL and I need to check my leds to see if they still work on the grid .. Whew.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: wings on November 23, 2012, 02:22:38 AM

Quote from: hartiberlin on November 22, 2012, 07:14:31 PM
There was just posted a circuit diagramm here:

http://laserhacker.com/forum/index.php?topic=70.msg634#msg634 (http://laserhacker.com/forum/index.php?topic=70.msg634#msg634)

I copy it here also for all to see directly here:

it seems that through the diodes the circuit recover energy due to capacitive/inductive coupling (stray capacitance) between the ground and electrical devices ..... similar to plasma globe effect , the difference here is probably the large emission frequency band that require less capacitance coupling.
a fast diode bridge can improve that effect.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 23, 2012, 02:29:47 AM

Quote from: NickZ on November 23, 2012, 01:26:41 AM
(snip)
To find the best place to connect the outside earth ground, just try it on different point on the circuit, and watch which point gives the best increased output brightness on the bulb. I place my ground connection on the transistor metal body on both the 2n3055, or the MJE 3055T (TIP 3055).

Try putting the earth ground at the Anode of the LED / coil connection!! Then touch this with your fingers and also touch the case (collector) of the 2n2222 !!
But I'm still not finding HV, and wherever I hook up the scope ground lead it messes up the behaviour and it acts very differently if I hook up the earth ground or not. Maybe my coil isn't right.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 23, 2012, 03:00:06 AM

Quote from: hoptoad on November 22, 2012, 11:14:01 PM
Great, neat, tidy little package and presentation. No Birds nests there! (think rose LOL)

Cheers

Thanks.... There seem to be two things all electronic FE circuits need: batteries, and alligator clipleads.
;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on November 23, 2012, 04:31:18 AM

Hi,

I did test a diode bridge in my circuit today. The circuit did use 3 Volt @ 0,02 Ampere before I soldered the bridge in the circuit.
After I soldered the bridge in the circuit, the circuit did use 3 Volt @ 0,12 Ampere and the LED lamp was dimmer. First test was
from a mains power supply. When I did connect the earth ground, then the current went down to 0,02 Ampere again and the display
on the power supply did start to flicker some random numbers. The light in the LED lamp was dim but did flicker. I then did run
the circuit from a 3 Volt battery (two AA in series). The lamp was dim and it was no effect to be seen when I put earth ground
on the output wires. I did try both wires. So there was no effect when run on batteries but some strange coupling effect between
the mains ground at the power supply and the earth ground at the circuit. I was not able to duplicate the effect LaserSaber did
show in his video.

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Lakes on November 23, 2012, 04:34:20 AM

Wow, things are moving so fast here, its hard to keep up.

I really like the idea of lighting an LED with your hands though, now how about lighting a CFL from a potato? :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 23, 2012, 06:24:11 AM

Quote from: Groundloop on November 23, 2012, 04:31:18 AM
Hi,

I did test a diode bridge in my circuit today. The circuit did use 3 Volt @ 0,02 Ampere before I soldered the bridge in the circuit.
After I soldered the bridge in the circuit, the circuit did use 3 Volt @ 0,12 Ampere and the LED lamp was dimmer. First test was
from a mains power supply. When I did connect the earth ground, then the current went down to 0,02 Ampere again and the display
on the power supply did start to flicker some random numbers. The light in the LED lamp was dim but did flicker. I then did run
the circuit from a 3 Volt battery (two AA in series). The lamp was dim and it was no effect to be seen when I put earth ground
on the output wires. I did try both wires. So there was no effect when run on batteries but some strange coupling effect between
the mains ground at the power supply and the earth ground at the circuit. I was not able to duplicate the effect LaserSaber did
show in his video.

GL.

Alex ,I noticed something strange with the original circuit . if i take the base/secondary connection of the bulb and jump that connection to one of the primary side the out put increases . Mine is so strong i used my neon screwin base bulb and a cfl on that connection .. . Warning i used only 1.2 volts ..My e core buzzes when i do that .i am uploading that short demo .. batt was 1.290
i am pretty sure he has more that a 20/200 ratio more like 70/700 because as think as that transformer is he is using there has got to be a lot of windings. we found that to be true on teh ls3 rod projects . Also my ecore has 5 layers of #36 tesla wire about 3000 turns and 15 turns of bell wire or hook up wire and it's core is smaller . I do not think that is an ecore he is using . The transformer is the Variable here

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Hoppy on November 23, 2012, 08:01:41 AM

Hi all,

I have built lasersaber's circuit and am having good results. My coil is wound on a ferrite 'E'-core from an old PC PSU and I have 20 turns 0.5mm ECW on primary and 250 turns of 0.3mm ECW on secondary. Transistors are TIP3055 and MPSA06. A little help is needed to start a 3W LED lamp by touching the base of the MPSA06. However, a 7W lamp starts without help. Connecting the rectifier as shown on the schematic stops the oscillations and the lamp extinguishes. It may be that lasersaber has drawn the connections incorrectly. Surprisingly, the transistors run very cool with a good light output. I have not been able to connect a scope as connecting the ground lead will stop the circuit oscillating. Even touching my DMM probes to the 12V / 7A/hr SLAB supplying the circuit will cause the lamp to flicker. Connecting an earth ground does not appear to affect brightness of the lamp but it does make the circuit run without any high frequency noise. Disconnecting the battery does not allow my circuit to continue running for more than a few seconds with a 10,000uF cap connected. I can get the lamp to pulse at very low brightness for a longer period if I touch the positive battery lead when its been removed.

The battery has been rising in voltage for the last hour and is now running steady at 12.76V. This is a characteristic I have seen with other JT type circuits running at HF. I expect it to start dropping at some stage once it adjusts fully to the load. If not then I'll be back to report the good news! :)

This generous helping from lasersaber appears to be running very efficiently as is well worth building and experimenting with.

Hoppy

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 23, 2012, 10:13:00 AM

I am glad i am not the only one seeing this . I got real tired of getting shocked even with 1.2 volt battey so i decided to try another transformer . He did say it would work with any transformer . so i went to my junk pile outside and grabbed a rusty transformer . it looks like a 110 to 24 vac .. I hooked it up and wala . it works but is very dim on 5 volts . If i touch the laminations it gets brighter . Also it flickers . AND the battery volts moves up even with an analog meter while it runs . So it will work with a normal transformer and you do still see the effects. I see no high voltage BUT i still do see one wire type lighting .Without the Magic variable, his transformer , i think we won't see any cap runner this time either. But as with the original joule ringer i spent months trying to get it to work and could not, i am not that disappointed and will keep trying . Laser has more info coming and maybe some tips on that transformer . I guess i need to ask Santa if he can spare some alligator clips and another lot of 2n3055's. I have blown 15 playing with his circuits and i have two on some good ls3's i will not mess with .If anyone care to see that rusty transformer run a light it is uploading on my slow 512k internet.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Hoppy on November 23, 2012, 11:16:08 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on November 23, 2012, 10:13:00 AM
I am glad i am not the only one seeing this . I got real tired of getting shocked even with 1.2 volt battery so i decided to try another transformer . He did say it would work with any transformer . so i went to my junk pile outside and grabbed a rusty transformer . it looks like a 110 to 24 vac .. I hooked it up and wala . it works but is very dim on 5 volts . If i touch the laminations it gets brighter . Also it flickers . AND the battery volts moves up even with an analog meter while it runs . So it will work with a normal transformer and you do still see the effects. I see no high voltage BUT i still do see one wire type lighting .Without the Magic variable, his transformer , i think we won't see any cap runner this time either. But as with the original joule ringer i spent months trying to get it to work and could not, i am not that disappointed and will keep trying . Laser has more info coming and maybe some tips on that transformer . I guess i need to ask Santa if he can spare some alligator clips and another lot of 2n3055's. I have blown 15 playing with his circuits and i have two on some good ls3's i will not mess with .If anyone care to see that rusty transformer run a light it is uploading on my slow 512k internet.

We need efficient ferrite core transformers to get good efficiency from this circuit. My measured voltage across the lamp is 120V and current drawn from the 12V battery as measured across a 0.1R shunt resistor in series with the battery is 0.46A. The only thing getting very warm is the LED lamp ali shroud, so this tells me that the circuit is working at very good efficiency. Ideally, I need more turns to increase the output voltage on load using a 7W lamp, as I'm on 240V over here in the UK.

I can't see any free energy here yet but lasersabre has certainly come up trumps with this design for efficient lighting.

Hoppy

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hartiberlin on November 23, 2012, 11:47:23 AM

Sorry, could not sleep last night , nor did I know that Lasersaber celibrated Thanksgiving holiday.

I just saw that I made an error.
I thought the 2 transistors were just wired as a darlington, so I connected both collectors together in my circuit ..

No wonder it did not really work for me...

Well,
My circuit just blinks for about 2 second while discharging the cap from 12 to 5 Volts
but then stops at around 4.5 Volts.

Have to get the 3055 transistor and 2N2222 to continue...
My darlington MJE1100 seems not to work with this circuit.....

I also think we have to wait for Lasersaber confirming the circuit diagram first and
also tell us more about his transformer.

Otherwise it is hard to replicate.

I also have to get first the right parts as with my parts it does not work the same way...

Have to do some family related stuff over the weekend, so not much time to tinker, too bad, sorry...

Regards, Stefan.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on November 23, 2012, 12:03:42 PM

I'm using a ferrite bead rod core (4 beads) as the transformer, and connecting the secondary HV output side to a previously made smaller 3 inch ferrite rod core secondary coil, to increase the HV output. This will light any neon or Cfl, florescent tube, etz. But, If the bulb is disconnected, the whole secondary part of the circuit is acting as an Exciter, with wireless up to 15 inches away from the coils. Even wireless on the neon av plug up to two inches away.
I really think that all that Lasersaber is seeing in the cross over circuit, is the capacitive link from the AC wiring side from his solar system's panels, leaching through to the cross-over circuit.. If the solar panels are disconnected the light bulb will also go out. As this is then just acting as an Exciter, working off of the stray capacitive link from his solar system.
His transformer is using that small leached power source and amplifying the voltage, to light an led bulb. But, if the solar system is turned off or disconnected, the cross-over circuit will stop working, at least that is what I think. Easy enough to prove, also. just turn off the solar arrays at the shed.

Here is video I made a few months ago, showing my Exciter running off of NO battery.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xur_VChGdzE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xur_VChGdzE)
Turn your volume up, as this camara's sound is low.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Djoko on November 23, 2012, 12:31:34 PM

Hi all,

I'm using 10 mm ferrite rod with 90 turn primary 920 secondary, BC338 + 3055, 12 V batt and 3 Watt LED bulb. I test it in 2 configuration (SJR 3.0 and JRC/O) by swaping one end of wire of LED to the collector as SJR 3.0 and to the base of small transitor as JRC/O. I found 1 Amp. on the SJR 3.0 config and 350 mA on the JRC/O. There is no change in the LED brightness on the both configuration.

rgd
Djoko

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: scratchrobot on November 23, 2012, 01:32:20 PM

I made the circuit with a normal 220v>12v transformer and was just playing with it, i didn't know my capacitior could make sound :)
Without the battery it works very long when touching the -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H8KCxCj7Do (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H8KCxCj7Do)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 23, 2012, 03:33:43 PM

Quote from: scratchrobot on November 23, 2012, 01:32:20 PM
I made the circuit with a normal 220v>12v transformer and was just playing with it, i didn't know my capacitior could make sound :)
Without the battery it works very long when touching the -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H8KCxCj7Do (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H8KCxCj7Do)

Some people just got it . Nice job ! you got it !

My rusty xformer is no where near that .

http://youtu.be/Zz1OkuYdei8

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 23, 2012, 04:47:15 PM

Yes.... there is something very strange going on. This circuit caused me to check the voltage between my good Earth ground and the house wiring. Using the Fluke 83 DMM on AC voltage setting, I get a rock-steady 57.4 VAC between the Earth ground and the ground leads of my test equipment!! There is no "current" available though, it will just barely light a green LED to a slightly visible glow. Scoping the "earth ground" as a signal source I get a beautiful sine wave at 60 Hz, p-p around 150V.
My Earth ground is a 4-foot copper pipe driven into the damp ground underneath a window air conditioner (yes, we still run AC in November in South Texas).
I don't think there's actually a wiring fault in the house, it's been checked several times but I'm going to have to check it again.

The circuit I built, exactly from the diagram, including the bridge, behaves very strangely. I am seeing all the weird effects people have noted above, but I have no HV anywhere. Touching the Earth ground to various places makes the (normal small white single) LED glow brilliantly, and I also get the noises and the phenomenon of the LED glowing dimly or even moderately for a _long_ time when one battery lead is disconnected and fingers placed on the collector or the LED anode or even the "extra" wire for the core.
I get the most interesting results with the core wire connected to the LED anode, then just stroking this with the Earth ground lead to start oscillations, then leaving the Earth ground disconnected.

I've been using 1 to 3 volt batteries and sometimes a 5 volt regulated bench supply.... this latter is _very interesting_ because the LED will glow if I simply hold the output clips in my fingers, both or either one, and touch the usual spots in the circuit... the case of the 2222 is a good spot... while the Earth ground is hooked to the base of the 2222 or to the LED anode.

There is definitely some interaction with the house wiring, through instruments plugged into the line, and even by the body's pickup, and the Earth ground is key to this.

It is very hard to scope this circuit! Hooking the ground probe to the "normal" places kills it, as also reported above. By just randomly probing around I finally got some signals without killing it.... and they are very weird. Like a slow square wave, but on the top of each cycle, a set of 5 or six "spindles". I'll try to get a photo later today.... this thing is really puzzling me.

I am still unsure as to just what circuit is being talked about by most people, though. If you "remove the bridge"... what's left, how is it wired... and how are people getting HV?

My transformer is probably not to spec, I used a TV inductor similar to the one in my NE-2 JT but larger and containing a magnet, that had about 40 turns of heavy wire, and I wound 300 or so turns of #27 on top of that, and covered it with 5-minute epoxy to secure the windings.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: lasersaber on November 23, 2012, 05:12:52 PM

@TinselKoala

It sounds like you got it! I have spent all day working and taking power measurements on this little circuit! I have made some serious progress. I will post a new video shown showing the complete setup and how to wire it soon. I will also be posting an updated schematic on LaserHacker forum soon.

QuoteThere is definitely some interaction with the house wiring, through instruments plugged into the line, and even by the body's pickup, and the Earth ground is key to this.

Today I unplugged the extension cord that runs out to my workshop. My workshop is about 100' from my house wiring. I worked all day off the grid in there and saw all the same effects using an antenna connected to my shed roof. I have no power lines or radio station nearby so this is pretty amazing!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 23, 2012, 05:57:27 PM

Wow. all i can say is WOW. now you all got me started again . I am winding a new coil !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on November 23, 2012, 06:08:56 PM

Quote:
" I worked all day off the grid in there and saw all the same effects using an antenna connected to my shed roof".

Is your solar panel system also disconnected?
What current reading are you seeing. Is this just a voltage reading with no current?

NickZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Magluvin on November 23, 2012, 06:13:29 PM

How much voltage lives in the 10,000 uf cap during these disconnected operations?

Mags

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 23, 2012, 06:58:23 PM

@lasersaber..... I'm not sure just what I've got! I hope you don't mind, I've named your circuit the "GhostLight" because of the way the LED will stay on dimly for so long with stuff disconnected, and how the circuit seems "haunted" sometimes. Spooky noises and everything, weird vibrations, tingling spines
.
I am using this term to refer to the schematic Stefan posted yesterday, with the bridge and the extra wire....

I still can't seem to find the HV but I did get all the other effects, as I noted before.

And also, my transformer is different so that might be why no HV for me... yet.

After I saw scratchrobo's video and thought about Hoppy's post a bit, I went ahead and removed the bridge from the GhostLight circuit and made another change or two... and got the thing working well as a low-voltage JT... but with a twist.

I've blown 2 x 2n2222 transistors and a white LED since starting with this thing, but not the 3055 yet. Have had some hot transistors when running on the 5v supply, but now I think I've got this version stable.

Next will be to try to get a transformer more like the spec, and keep searching for the HV that is in there somewhere.

Here's a video I just shot..... a gang of thieves!
Still uploading, will be done in a few minutes.
http://youtu.be/LQe0In73pbY (http://youtu.be/LQe0In73pbY)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 23, 2012, 07:05:50 PM

@Mags.... last night when I was getting the disconnected "ghost light" effect with the Earth ground and the dim LED for a long long time, I finally determined that there has to be some charge on the cap for it to work. If the cap is discharged by making some other contact somewhere, the light goes out and can't be brought back until some charge is put back on the cap. I think the energy in the cap is powering the light and the energy "from the Earth ground" is "enabling" or triggering the base current enough to start oscillations and drain the cap thru the LED.
I think in my case that it's the very small current between the Earth ground and the EM field of the house line wiring, coupled capacitatively thru my body.
I don't know how big this cap voltage must be because when I try to meter it, it kills the effect, and because of the interaction with the house wiring I can't even scope it properly.

I have not taken things outside yet, but I'd have to go pretty far to get away from ambient fields, I'm in the middle of a residential 'hood with wires everywhere.

Now all of this has to be taken with a grain of salt because my transformer isn't right yet. But I definitely get the Ghost Light.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on November 23, 2012, 07:13:52 PM

Quote from: TinselKoala on November 23, 2012, 06:58:23 PM
@lasersaber..... I'm not sure just what I've got! I hope you don't mind, I've named your circuit the "GhostLight" because of the way the LED will stay on dimly for so long with stuff disconnected, and how the circuit seems "haunted" sometimes. Spooky noises and everything, weird vibrations, tingling spines
.
I am using this term to refer to the schematic Stefan posted yesterday, with the bridge and the extra wire....

I still can't seem to find the HV but I did get all the other effects, as I noted before.

And also, my transformer is different so that might be why no HV for me... yet.

After I saw scratchrobo's video and thought about Hoppy's post a bit, I went ahead and removed the bridge from the GhostLight circuit and made another change or two... and got the thing working well as a low-voltage JT... but with a twist.

I've blown 2 x 2n2222 transistors and a white LED since starting with this thing, but not the 3055 yet. Have had some hot transistors when running on the 5v supply, but now I think I've got this version stable.

Next will be to try to get a transformer more like the spec, and keep searching for the HV that is in there somewhere.

Here's a video I just shot..... a gang of thieves!
Still uploading, will be done in a few minutes.
http://youtu.be/LQe0In73pbY (http://youtu.be/LQe0In73pbY)

TK,

Looking forward to your video. The video is still being possessed by YouTube. :-)

I'm currently working on a scaled up version of the circuit. Did find a 70 Watt laminated
soft iron toroid core. It is a factory made transformer where I took of the low voltage windings
and made my own 29 turn new primary. I will still use the factory made 230VAC winding as
a lamp driver output. I will use the NTE2354 as a power transistor with a MJE340 as a driver
transistor. Sorry that I have no photos but my digital camera did choose to go bust. :(

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hartiberlin on November 23, 2012, 07:25:32 PM

Lasersaber just posted a new circuit diagramm at his site.

Here is a copy for backup reasonsn.

Have a look also at his site:

www.laserhacker.com

Many thanks Lasersaber for your great work !!

Regards, Stefan.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hartiberlin on November 23, 2012, 08:17:36 PM

Quote from: TinselKoala on November 23, 2012, 04:47:15 PM
Yes.... there is something very strange going on. This circuit caused me to check the voltage between my good Earth ground and the house wiring. Using the Fluke 83 DMM on AC voltage setting, I get a rock-steady 57.4 VAC between the Earth ground and the ground leads of my test equipment!! There is no "current" available though, it will just barely light a green LED to a slightly visible glow. Scoping the "earth ground" as a signal source I get a beautiful sine wave at 60 Hz, p-p around 150V.
....

Just a quick note, before I go to bed...

Well my Cable TV connector bush ground has also such a potential voltage difference to my
other 230 Volts AC house ground line...or versus the heating pipe metal...

This is also why so many TV tuner PC cards blew, when connecting them to the cable
connector bushes.
There you can always see a little blue spark jumping, cause these cable TV ground potentials
are different than the PC power supply ground line potential....

So it seems it could be some kind of voltage potentail equalisationcurrents flowing there...

Have to check into this further and have to see, if I could run a Joule thief from this to charge batteries...

Regards, Stefan.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on November 23, 2012, 08:50:01 PM

All that you are noticing is the stray AC capacitance in the house wiring, going to the outside ground connection. Turn off your house's breakers, and that stray voltage will dissapeare as well. Just try it...
If Lasersaber is finding something other than this stray AC capacitance from the house wiring, then this needs to be looked into.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on November 23, 2012, 09:11:08 PM

Hi,

I have now built and is starting to test my new larger circuit. The oscillator self starts because
of the 100K bias resistor. Oscillator is running fine on many different input voltages. This version
has higher losses and uses more current just to idle. But I will try to light some larger bulbs with
this circuit. My initial calculations shows me that the circuit will waste approx. 0,5 Watt on idle.

[EDIT1] I have added one more BY255 and got the idle current down even more. This circuit has
now been tested on a 230VAC 3W LED lamp and that worked. I did also test a 8W LED lamp but
the lamp did only blink on and off. I tested on a 11W CFL and the lamp did not light. My conclusion
is that this circuit version is wasting too much power and is not good at all. The soft iron toroid core
is wasting too much energy and is probably way to large for a practical led lamp driver.

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 23, 2012, 09:51:06 PM

@Nick, yes that's right, but isn't the line "ground" wire supposed to be also at Earth ground potential? Mine doesn't seem to be. I wonder if I have a "floating neutral" condition happening. Not good, if so.

@Stefan: Ouch! I wonder if there is a fault in your cable service wiring?

I took the liberty of redrawing the schematic you posted above as LaserSaber v.2. I call it the LS "Ghost Light". Putting it in the "between the rails" form always helps me to understand a circuit's action. Although in this case it didn't help much. :o
Please review my drawing and let me know if I've made any mistakes.

ETA: I just now saw GL's schematic..... Great minds think alike !! ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 23, 2012, 10:19:30 PM

Schematic used in the Gang of Thieves video:

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on November 23, 2012, 10:30:19 PM

Guys:
Don't get confused from the stray AC line interference... There's no current to it.
If you want to charge batteries, like in cell phones, etz... and light some led bulbs for free, you can use the voltage coming from your phone line. I get 110v from my phone line, even if my phone is not working or disconnected from lack of payment. Even in a power black-out, as the phone company has back-up generators. Just connect a 110 volt wall adapter to the phone line, and charge anything, at whatever the 110volt wall adapter is outputting, like 6 volts, 9 volts, 12 volts, etz... for FREE, 24/7 365 days a year.
That voltage and current is enough to light many leds, and possibly directly light some of the lower wattage 110 volt AC led bulbs. Try that instead... you won't even need an inverter, or oscillator.
You do need a phone line though. Let us know what you find...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sohei on November 23, 2012, 10:43:29 PM

Greetings to all. And permission to join the club.

I made a first test on the CrossOver circuit, the one with the bridge rectifier. But on the test I did no used it.
Here are the specs of the loads I used:
Neon bulb 95VAC Max
38 Led bulb with circuit made for 130VAC
2N3055 and 2N2222
Standard 12-110v transformer
Earth ground: 5 rods around the house

And the data across the neon:
With earth ground 57.7VAC
Without earth ground 50VAC

The load were not used together.

Start at 50mA
10mA with earth ground
20mA without earth ground

Batt: 2x 3.7 Li-ion
Cap: 2200 16v
2 sec without the battery is the running time

The neon gets more brighter and faster without the earth ground
Transformer in low pitch with earth ground and high pitch without.
Link to the video of the test:
http://youtu.be/T3y2voFMT20

Regards,
Max. (Sohei Thoth)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hoptoad on November 23, 2012, 11:25:41 PM

Quote from: NickZ on November 23, 2012, 10:30:19 PM
Guys:
Don't get confused from the stray AC line interference... There's no current to it.
If you want to charge batteries, like in cell phones, etz... and light some led bulbs for free, you can use the voltage coming from your phone line. I get 110v from my phone line, even if my phone is not working or disconnected from lack of payment. Even in a power black-out, as the phone company has back-up generators. Just connect a 110 volt wall adapter to the phone line, and charge anything, at whatever the 110volt wall adapter is outputting, like 6 volts, 9 volts, 12 volts, etz... for FREE, 24/7 365 days a year.
That voltage and current is enough to light many leds, and possibly directly light some of the lower wattage 110 volt AC led bulbs. Try that instead... you won't even need an inverter, or oscillator.
You do need a phone line though. Let us know what you find...

The problem is, this is not free energy, it's stolen energy!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 23, 2012, 11:39:21 PM

Welcome Sohei , dig on in and have at it .

To All crossover experimenters,

ok I make my move here . I light 220 ac bulbs again with a 1.2 volts battery . This circuit is touchy .I wound a very small coil around a cable choke 300 turns secondary and 28 turns primary .(inspired by TK) I used a pair of mpsa05's and cap . the diode didn't do anything for me but if i touch it the lights come on . or i touch the load side if the bulb opposite the base side it lights but the diode in that position just killed it both ways . ,so i biased it with a 33k resistor between
the collector of the primary transistor to the base of the secondary transistor . it starts right up and runs that way fine and bright 220 bulb which is dim on my house current but i think the bias is messing up my cap sustaining ability or maybe it just was not meant to be . still its cool but not working like it was supposed to and that was a lot of experimenting hours . I am giving it a rest . tomorrow i'll take it outside and give it a ground and an antenna and se if it does anything;) Video is uploading on my channel and i am getting some rest.

one more thing , I read somewhere a few days ago some guys are doing high powered ground communication(hams like me) they are transmitting thru the earth with a field of 20 foot rods in the earth and transmitting crystal clear communications 1000's of miles away to the receivers with there fields of 20 foot rods. even past the fault lines. something to think about .
Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 23, 2012, 11:59:59 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on November 23, 2012, 11:39:21 PM
Welcome Sohei , dig on in and have at it .

To All crossover experimenters,

ok I make my move here . I light 220 ac bulbs again with a 1.2 volts battery . This circuit is touchy .I wound a very small coil around a cable choke 300 turns secondary and 28 turns primary .(inspired by TK) I used a pair of mpsa05's and cap . the diode didn't do anything for me but if i touch it the lights come on . or i touch the load side if the bulb opposite the base side it lights but the diode in that position just killed it both ways . ,so i biased it with a 33k resistor between
the collector of the primary transistor to the base of the secondary transistor . it starts right up and runs that way fine and bright 220 bulb which is dim on my house current but i think the bias is messing up my cap sustaining ability or maybe it just was not meant to be . still its cool but not working like it was supposed to and that was a lot of experimenting hours . I am giving it a rest . tomorrow i'll take it outside and give it a ground and an antenna and se if it does anything;) Video is uploading on my channel and i am getting some rest.

one more thing , I read somewhere a few days ago some guys are doing high powered ground communication(hams like me) they are transmitting thru the earth with a field of 20 foot rods in the earth and transmitting crystal clear communications 1000's of miles away to the receivers with there fields of 20 foot rods. even past the fault lines. something to think about .
Gadget

Gadget:

that sounds a lot like ELF (extremly low frequency) and reminds me of Stubblefield's work.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sohei on November 24, 2012, 01:36:52 AM

Thanks Gadget.

Just another update.
0.700v at 10mA lighting a neon bulb.
Circuit completed from the ground to the metal frame from my window using a lead/alum cell that was already running an oscillator.

Sohei

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on November 24, 2012, 06:40:54 AM

Hi,

Today I did put my first LSJRCO (LaserSaber Joule Ringer CrossOver) into a plastic box.
I use 4 Nicads (1,2V 700mA) in series to give 4,8 Volt. I have put two solar cells on top
of the box and the sun is charging my batteries up. I have an on/off switch and a power on LED
indicator on the front panel. The 2N3055 is at back of the box and have a small heat sink.
The circuit lights up my 230VAC 3 Watt LED lamp to almost full brightness. I have not measured
the current usage of the circuit yet. Maybe I have to change the 100K to find a better relationship
between the light output and the current usage. The red and black connectors is the output to
my LED lamp.

[EDIT1] I have measured the current usage: 4,8 Volt @ 0,5 Ampere. So I need to use a little higher
value than the 100K resistor. Will try that next.

[EDIT2] I have changed the resistor to 1M Ohm. At 4,8 Volt the current usage is now 0,09 Ampere.
This gives me approx. 8 hours of "nice night lamp" between each charge of the batteries.

[EDIT3] I have now a 5M Ohm resistor in the circuit. Now the circuit starts every time I switch on the power
and the current usage is at 0,09 Amp. @ 4,8 Volt.

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Hoppy on November 24, 2012, 07:35:29 AM

I have now tested a number of easy to wind 'open' transformers using ferrite rods and none can meet the performance efficiency of my 'E' core transformer. As Groundloop shows, a high value resistor between collector and base of the 2N2222 (or an MPSA06) transistor can help to provide just enough positive bias to trigger the circuit into action. My circuit will start automatically with a 7W LED but not with a 3W LED.

I cannot get the lasersabre diode and magnet mod to work. It stops oscillation on my setup.

Hoppy

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hartiberlin on November 24, 2012, 07:50:55 AM

Well done to all experimentors, Gadget, Sohei, TK , Groundloop and Hoppy and all the others...

Did anybody yet try to see, how the waveforms look at the primary of the transformer
at the Lasersabers Crossover circuit ?

Isn´t there the chance to blew the driving 2N3055 transistor from the backspikes when the transistor
switches off or what is happening there ?

I guess we really need the right transformer to get it all to work like in Lasersaber´s setup.

I guess this is really the key to the success..

Have to get some new transistors first next week, so I can better tinker with it and
have to wind another 100 turns on my toroid core to get 200 turns, as I only have 100 turns
as the secondary.
TK shoed it nicely how to wind such a toroid more easily in one of his last videos... Many thanks for this....!

Have a nice weekend !

Regards, Stefan.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on November 24, 2012, 07:53:24 AM

Quote from: Hoppy on November 24, 2012, 07:35:29 AM
I have now tested a number of easy to wind 'open' transformers using ferrite rods and none can meet the performance efficiency of my 'E' core transformer. As Groundloop shows, a high value resistor between collector and base of the 2N2222 (or an MPSA06) transistor can help to provide just enough positive bias to trigger the circuit into action. My circuit will start automatically with a 7W LED but not with a 3W LED.

I cannot get the lasersabre diode and magnet mod to work. It stops oscillation on my setup.

Hoppy

Hoppy,

What is the size of you Ferrite core? And what number of turns did you use?

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Hoppy on November 24, 2012, 08:09:54 AM

Quote from: Groundloop on November 24, 2012, 07:53:24 AM
Hoppy,

What is the size of you Ferrite core? And what number of turns did you use?

GL.

GL,

L=45mm, W=40mm, D=12mm. 20 turns 0.5mm ECW on primary. 250 turns 0.3mm on secondary.

Regards
Hoppy

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on November 24, 2012, 08:15:15 AM

Quote from: Hoppy on November 24, 2012, 08:09:54 AM
GL,

L=45mm, W=40mm, D=12mm. 20 turns 0.5mm ECW on primary. 250 turns 0.3mm on secondary.

Regards
Hoppy

Hoppy,

Thanks, I will see if I can find one in some of my old computer PSU.

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 24, 2012, 10:20:56 AM

http://youtu.be/tdmgDIWtDpM (http://youtu.be/tdmgDIWtDpM)

here is my last one and i let it run all night . It is still fully charged . i trigger mine with a tap from a ground now .LOw input Lasersaber CrossOver Circuit .. I could not get the diode magnet to work but this will trigger with a tap of a ground now so no resistor needed . I let it run all night long and the battery is still fully charged .! Thats is a 220 volt Led bulb and the power supply is 1.2 vols dc . the Transformer is a little ferrite choke from a computer and wound with 300 turns secondary #26 and 27 or 28 primary of #22 .super glue helped hold the wire from common of the edges and tape over it . the transistors are MPSA05's

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 24, 2012, 10:21:25 AM

Groundloop Nice Boxed energy Device . this one is going in a little box too. I got it to trigger with a ground tap on the positive input wire to something that is plugged in to the mains . it stays lit down to .5 volts running the bulb with the same brightness . THis particular 220 volt LED bulb is rather dim on the regular mains . As i bought it from China and thought it would be a nice light but it is a 220vac . This circuit lights it up brighter that the mains .
I forgot to mention that this Bulb will light also with just one wire however it it not High Voltage . Weird but it does work with the opposite secondary disconnected from the PIGTAIL ..
When i get some more 2n3o55's one day and a different transformer i will give it another shot but i am happy with the very low power this takes, as low as .5 volts with the same brightness, I almost got it with the tiny homemade core . It will be a matter of winding one wind at a time to get this circuit at a 0volt input to run those transistors from the cap. . i am trying a few 2 foot magnesium and carbon rods today to see if it works . .
I think you can use ANY NPN transistor even scrap ones from some old electronic boards . I want to try some germanium transistors i have so i cut a few more pieces of PC hook up board to try different ones.
the last one i put it on an AA battery almost depleted .6v and it triggers with a touch and gets really bright if i attach the pos wire clip to ground or any object that is plugged in .Although is still is not exact but it will flash for a few seconds on the cap only . Close ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: ALVARO_CS on November 24, 2012, 03:39:56 PM

hello all
Groundloop: I replicated the lasersaber crossover circuit as per the schematic you posted before.(except the solar)
Used a 650K resistor (could not find a 1M)
Transformer from an old Siemens cell phone charger (in AC 230V - out DC 4.5 V- 0.6A)laminated.
Lights a chinese led lamp (30 leds) 230V - 2W from a Li-Ion batt. 3.7 V

Planing to feed it with four rechargeable 1.2V.
and will continue experimenting, fascinating circuit (also thanks to Gadget, glad you are back here)

Thanks
cheers
Alvaro

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on November 24, 2012, 04:02:16 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on November 24, 2012, 10:21:25 AM
Groundloop Nice Boxed energy Device . this one is going in a little box too. I got it to trigger with a ground tap on the positive input wire to something that is plugged in to the mains . it stays lit down to .5 volts running the bulb with the same brightness . THis particular 220 volt LED bulb is rather dim on the regular mains . As i bought it from China and thought it would be a nice light but it is a 220vac . This circuit lights it up brighter that the mains .
I forgot to mention that this Bulb will light also with just one wire however it it not High Voltage . Weird but it does work with the opposite secondary disconnected from the PIGTAIL ..
When i get some more 2n3o55's one day and a different transformer i will give it another shot but i am happy with the very low power this takes, as low as .5 volts with the same brightness, I almost got it with the tiny homemade core . It will be a matter of winding one wind at a time to get this circuit at a 0volt input to run those transistors from the cap. . i am trying a few 2 foot magnesium and carbon rods today to see if it works . .
I think you can use ANY NPN transistor even scrap ones from some old electronic boards . I want to try some germanium transistors i have so i cut a few more pieces of PC hook up board to try different ones.
the last one i put it on an AA battery almost depleted .6v and it triggers with a touch and gets really bright if i attach the pos wire clip to ground or any object that is plugged in .Although is still is not exact but it will flash for a few seconds on the cap only . Close ..

Gadget,

Nice little circuit you have there. I think it is important to wait for LaserSaber to provide more information about his
transformer so that we can find out what is powering his circuit when he used the roof as an antenna and the ground
connection. As I understand it, he disconnected the main cable from his house to his lab area and still manage to light
his circuit. But anyway, this circuit of his is great for battery powered light.

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on November 24, 2012, 04:09:08 PM

Quote from: ALVARO_CS on November 24, 2012, 03:39:56 PM
hello all
Groundloop: I replicated the lasersaber crossover circuit as per the schematic you posted before.(except the solar)
Used a 650K resistor (could not find a 1M)
Transformer from an old Siemens cell phone charger (in AC 230V - out DC 4.5 V- 0.6A)laminated.
Lights a chinese led lamp (30 leds) 230V - 2W from a Li-Ion batt. 3.7 V

Planing to feed it with four rechargeable 1.2V.
and will continue experimenting, fascinating circuit (also thanks to Gadget, glad you are back here)

Thanks
cheers
Alvaro

Alvaro,

I have found that I can adjust the light in the LED bulb (and thus the current usage of the circuit) by varying the resistor value.
If we use a very high (around 5M Ohm) resistor value then the circuit will use very little power and we could then use just
a small transistor for the switching. But the real interesting part is how LaserSaber was able to light his circuit with just an
antenna and ground while he had his lab disconnected from the mains. Not enough information available yet to find out.

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on November 24, 2012, 05:52:40 PM

Hi,

Today I did test the Joule Ringer CrossOver circuit on a Metglas AMCC-32 core.
The circuit runs well, but I still need the high Ohm (5 mega Ohm) resistor for the circuit to self start.
At 9 Volt input the circuit uses 0,16 Ampere to light the 3 Watt LED lamp to a OK brightness. (Not full.)

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: verpies on November 24, 2012, 05:54:11 PM

Quote from: lasersaber on November 23, 2012, 05:12:52 PM
I have no power lines or radio station nearby so this is pretty amazing!

Up until now I have been ignoring your circuit, because it seemed like you've tuned into the RF field of a strong radio transmitter or into the near field of your shed's power wiring or into a near field of an underground power cable, etc...

Those concerns could disregarded if you made your setup portable so you can drive with it far away.

Also, how much DC power do you need to light that LED light bulb with the same brightness?

P.S.
It is important to use pure DC for this power measurement. With pure DC you can multiply Volts*Amps to calculate power credibly.
With non-DC power supply (e.g.: PDC or AC), the power calculation stops being credible unless other waveform factors are accounted for - but why complicate the matter.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: ALVARO_CS on November 24, 2012, 06:40:04 PM

Groundloop: I was thinking to feed it with the RomeroUK bat charger (very simple) got some 5V with it.
but I also will wait for a further development.
Alvaro
edit: may post it here if requested

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 25, 2012, 12:18:17 AM

Well my setup is now hooked exactly like Lasersabers crossover with the diode/magnet feeding the cap/AA battery It is increasing in voltage again except this time is was a depleted battery so it is NOT battery recovery . i am getting the casmeir effect or there is energy recovery going on in the air as it is not hooked to anything external at all .. It wold kill the oscillation with just the diode so i hooked a 5mm clear led parallel and it is at that balance and lighting the 22ovac bulb AND the white led diode . This is generating more power off the load side and is enough to charge a cap and battery .

SO groundloop i used his diagram with the magnet and my diode/led(lit) and one more modification . a .22 capacitor between the other load lead to the positive rail . It works great . just checked the battery and that .6 battery has climbed to 1.239 volts . It is enough to convince me a ground rod and an air antenna will power my circuit mods . You have to TUNE your coils with capacitance .Also i have longer wires on my Bulb connects .

you guys are using to much power to see this effect if your input is above the trigger voltage of your transistor . In silicon transistors its about .4 volts . In my case using two MPSa05's its some where at .6 .

When you get it to oscillate at that low voltage and light your load and your diode looper with coil tanked tuning you will see it take energy from the environment be it static from a rooftop and copper earth ground or just static and electromagnetic waves from the air .

This is My prize build and i am waiting for a nice case to mount it in . i want screw terminals on the outside for ant/ground input and ,y led/diode configuration will be the on indication with the LED bulb socket ..

I used my capacitor box to select the proper cap for my coil . That made it easy .. Resistors are also just killing the effect if you use them and your energy is wasted in heat.

tomorrow i will do a few more test / I want to see if the battery tops out at some point because of the frequency changes with voltage . If it starts to go low again i want to see that point . I already know it accumulated below .622 volts . I bet there will be a point when it peaks and drops. then peaks and them drops .
If so this is perfect as it stands.
Gadget

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 25, 2012, 12:58:20 AM

FWIW...... a rather long demo, sorry about the light... YT seems to have pixelated this one more than usual too, but at least I use a tripod for the latter half of the demo...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAUSnpQJRDM

Don't be fooled by the single tiny LED I'm using in this video .... this circuit in "JTmode"... without the diode or the earth ground connection.... will pop LEDs and transistors like crazy with the input voltage cranked up.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 25, 2012, 02:08:56 AM

Battery voltage climbing? I'm not sure if this is the same thing that gadget is seeing but it came about from putting a cap in the place he said..... I just used a 1 uF poly film cap that was on the bench.... this was one of those "whoopee" moments for sure; when I first touched the cap into the running circuit and saw the voltage go up by 200 mV in a few seconds and still climbing ........ but then I calmed down and started thinking about it.....

Video still uploading, will be ready in moments.
http://youtu.be/JMtF78stMS8 (http://youtu.be/JMtF78stMS8)

By the way, I came across this website a few minutes ago, might be of interest, sorry if it's already been posted somewhere.
http://www.pavouk.org/hw/lamp/en_index.html

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: scratchrobot on November 25, 2012, 06:54:38 AM

I just finished my replication of the Bedini radiant oscillator tube. Made from an 2n3055.
I know this is not a joulethief but maybe someone can build a joulethief this way, i will :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBbSNKCBaWI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBbSNKCBaWI)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on November 25, 2012, 09:07:28 AM

Quote from: TinselKoala on November 25, 2012, 02:08:56 AM
Battery voltage climbing? I'm not sure if this is the same thing that gadget is seeing but it came about from putting a cap in the place he said..... I just used a 1 uF poly film cap that was on the bench.... this was one of those "whoopee" moments for sure; when I first touched the cap into the running circuit and saw the voltage go up by 200 mV in a few seconds and still climbing ........ but then I calmed down and started thinking about it.....

Video still uploading, will be ready in moments.
http://youtu.be/JMtF78stMS8 (http://youtu.be/JMtF78stMS8)

By the way, I came across this website a few minutes ago, might be of interest, sorry if it's already been posted somewhere.
http://www.pavouk.org/hw/lamp/en_index.html (http://www.pavouk.org/hw/lamp/en_index.html)

I don't know about cfl's but flybacks can light flurescent bulbs just sitting next to them. Incandascents use argon to blueshift infrared which is pretty neat in and of itself. You start off with low frequency light and get higher frequency light just because you have some gas between you and the resistor. Flurescent coatings redshift uv and appear to redshift xrays also. My reasoning is that if you take a conventional solar collector put it inside a quartz tube filled with argon the near infrared will excite the argon to emit white light and power up the solar collector collecting solar em at near infrared frequencies buried in the ground or under the ocean or sitting around your apartment at night whatever. Sorry for the off topic stuff.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 25, 2012, 10:27:31 AM

well update . I got up late this morning after a long night experimenting and the battery was dead shorted and the circuit was stopped . i don't know when that happened but i have to POP this battery and i think it is a nicad or an alkaline , I have no idea as the skin is off it . I should know better using an unknown in there . Anyway my eureka moment faded fast this morning but i will do it again with one of my good nimh batteries , could take a while ....

I have a few of these weird skinless batteries and a few will charge up then short out dead and will not even be recognized in a charger but if i let them sit for a few days they come back to about a half a volt and the charger sees them again and i can use them. .
My conclusion this morning is different builds produce different results . I know i am on the right track with this one as my thinking is only enuff voltage to trigger the transistors into oscillation and that my friends is low for silicon transistors . somewhere near 0.6 volts this circuit fires a 220 vac led bulb and that is all it needs from the environment..Anything higher than 1.3 volts and your wasting the effect . Also one diode out of 4 i have worked for feed back It is a glass diode with one line on it and it worked better with an led across it . I don't know the number but i do have other glass diodes that just stopped the oscillator but this one didn't and i got 50 of them that work .I got them off ebay years ago from hong kong when i was looking for the lowest voltage drop germanium . I also tried the avramenco plug on it and it stops it too so only one way on one of the legs of the load . The other leg is on a free wire several feet long . this setup that i think works now looks like a rats nest with long wires everywhere . I do not have any stray emf as i checked it with my android phone and a emf detector that IS very sensitive . just a little background emf and not like near a transformer .
I am beat and need to relax a bit and get some coffee in me .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 25, 2012, 11:14:49 AM

Quote from: TinselKoala on November 25, 2012, 02:08:56 AM
Battery voltage climbing? I'm not sure if this is the same thing that gadget is seeing but it came about from putting a cap in the place he said..... I just used a 1 uF poly film cap that was on the bench.... this was one of those "whoopee" moments for sure; when I first touched the cap into the running circuit and saw the voltage go up by 200 mV in a few seconds and still climbing ........ but then I calmed down and started thinking about it.....

Video still uploading, will be ready in moments.
http://youtu.be/JMtF78stMS8 (http://youtu.be/JMtF78stMS8)

By the way, I came across this website a few minutes ago, might be of interest, sorry if it's already been posted somewhere.
http://www.pavouk.org/hw/lamp/en_index.html (http://www.pavouk.org/hw/lamp/en_index.html)

thats what i was seeing . I have a Capacitor substitution box and i can select all the capacitors and see the effect with a twist of a knob and get a "balance" . remember i did check the standing battery volts and it was .6 volts to start it . I bet a variable trimmer can work here to help tune the coils . and the cap is between one of the load legs and the pos rail .
Tk your little neat 4 neon device is really close if it runs from depleted batteries . There is voltage from the earth to the air as every one know of Tesla experiments with caps and ground rods and Ariel do store electrical energy .. Nice build .And i can see you are running 2 batteries? the question i would have for you when you replicated was are you reading the two batteries when the cap is placed in and you are seeing recovery because the led light is dimmer . I see my light get dimmer and as i stated i have a cap box that can balance that for maximum light and the charging effect ..Also remember that my diode feedback also has a white led parallel to it and it also lights .I can tell the difference in battery recovery or real charging pretty sure .

LaserSaber is using the Tesla effect with his roof and copper ground . Simple free energy . His barn is a collector and that is why he has so much success with cap powered lights .His rat nest alligator clips are like a capacitor to his tin roof. The key here is in my opinion tuning your coils to meet the transistors frequency and thus run them at there every minimum volts to activate the beta amplifying properties of that particular transistor , And that is why i am trying some germanium one with very high beta gain and extremely low start of .2 . the question is will the frequency be enough to power a 220volt led bulb and still see the "charging effect from the aether or background emf,static which is free .(some will say it's not )( I feel Mh is lurking somewhere to strike.Beware MH your old school physics don't hold water here )

If you have a good Android phone with geo and magnetic sensors as in the droid INC there is an app called Entity Sensor (emf detector) and you can check you work space for any level of emf radiation . Mine is very low on my work space compared to near walls with wires in them or near magnetic stuff like magnets .

Pics of next test with a know battery.BTW the output on the diode/led jig to pos rail is over 13 volts open so when i connect it it is feeding some juice back in. .

BTW nice find on the CFL stuff . I have never seen the circuit posted and now it is possible to convert them to a lower input using those schematics.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sohei on November 25, 2012, 03:02:52 PM

Greetings to all.

After few experiments using the earth ground and the metal frame from the window, I am now convinced that indeed it is increasing the "power" for the circuit. Please correct me if I am wrong. After testing few standard transformers I found one that light a 9w modified CFL and the led bulb was with great light too. When connecting the cable from the window, the amount of light increase.

Follows the test:
http://youtu.be/SOzTnN7mlVw

Regards,
Max.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 25, 2012, 03:48:35 PM

Quote from: sohei on November 25, 2012, 03:02:52 PM
Greetings to all.

After few experiments using the earth ground and the metal frame from the window, I am now convinced that indeed it is increasing the "power" for the circuit. Please correct me if I am wrong. After testing few standard transformers I found one that light a 9w modified CFL and the led bulb was with great light too. When connecting the cable from the window, the amount of light increase.

Follows the test:
http://youtu.be/SOzTnN7mlVw

Regards,
Max.

I saw the same thing last night hooked to a ground rod outside and a long wire on one of the load wires . it does get brighter but i didn't check the volts then .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 25, 2012, 06:18:32 PM

@Gadgetmall: your germanium diodes are likely either 1n34a or 1n60. The 1n60 is a bit more robust and sometimes won't work in a crystal radio where a 1n34a will, there may be a slight difference in the fwd voltage spec.

It's getting hard to find germanium transistors for me; 2n2635 is a PNP, available as NTE160, but that's about all I can find any more.

http://www.datasheetarchive.com/2N2635-datasheet.html

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 25, 2012, 06:27:04 PM

Wooohooo.... try MPSA18 in place of the 2n2222 in the low voltage Ghostlight and JT modes !!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 25, 2012, 10:43:55 PM

1ua . yes that is a nice one ! 15 for 2.84 http://www.ebay.com/itm/15PCS-Transistor-FSC-MOT-ON-TO-92-MPSA18-MPSA18G-/260979077822?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cc390b2be (http://www.ebay.com/itm/15PCS-Transistor-FSC-MOT-ON-TO-92-MPSA18-MPSA18G-/260979077822?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cc390b2be)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on November 26, 2012, 12:12:10 AM

http://laserhacker.com/forum/index.php?topic=70.msg714#msg714
LET THERE BE LIGHT THIS XMAS FOR TYPHOON SANDY VICTIMS

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sarmasio on November 26, 2012, 12:15:56 AM

Hi,

I have tried to replicate the two battery charger variant of the joule thief.
Could not make it run, then after 4 trial I gave up. Can somebody help me with
this, I would like to make sure I-m doing right the toroid at least.
Which of the four variants is the good one?

best regards,
sarmasio

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on November 26, 2012, 12:30:45 AM

Quote from: sarmasio on November 26, 2012, 12:15:56 AM
Hi,

I have tried to replicate the two battery charger variant of the joule thief.
Could not make it run, then after 4 trial I gave up. Can somebody help me with
this, I would like to make sure I-m doing right the toroid at least.
Which of the four variants is the good one?

best regards,
sarmasio

it looks like your hook up on the switch is wrong.. you have both batteries on at once with feed back .. fix that i think you be ok..

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sarmasio on November 26, 2012, 02:37:39 AM

Thanks for the fast response,

This is how it suppose to be the right side battery is the run battery
and the left one is the charge. By reversing the switch, the role of the two batteries
will change, the right one will be the charge battery, the left one will be the
run battery. I'm suspecting having a problem by winding the toroid, this is
where I'm getting lost.

best regards,
sarmasio

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 26, 2012, 02:53:19 AM

Robbie the idea of the switch is to switch one battery from running to being charged, and the other from being charged to the running position.
I don't know about the switch being right or wrong... it looks like it at least switches the batteries around electrically.... I haven't built the circuit myself but the problem with JTs not running is often incorrect coil phasing, as the sketches suggest.

@sarmasio
If you take the direction of the coil that is connected to the transistor collector as "fixed"... that is, hook it up and don't change it.... then you have four possible options to try with the other two coils. Right? Call the coils 1 and 2 and the ends a and b. You can reverse 1a and 1b, and you can reverse 2a and 2b. 4 possibles to try. Try them! If none work, then go back to the "fixed" coil hooked to the collector and reverse it. Then go back to coils 1 and 2 and try all 4 possible orientations again.
So in all, there are 8 different ways you can hook up 3 coils. If you are using breadboards and clipleads, you can try all eight in less time than it took me to type this, probably.You could also try applying a resistor of 220K to 1 megohm between the collector and base of the transistor to make the system start oscillating.... so now you have sixteen variations to try, maybe it will take you half an hour and you might need to make notes.

I'm all out of toroids or I'd try your setup, but by the time I wind a bunch of windings I lose track of which end is which anyway, so I _always_ try all possible permutations of coil hookups on any circuit like this, even if the first one I try works.

(ETA: don't forget to try both polarities of the LED too, and make sure your LED is actually working, this circuit can easily pop them and you'll be testing with a dead LED..... a real waste of time.)

Also, NTE109 is the expensive equivalent of the 1n60 germanium diode which might be a lot cheaper under that part number. But I'd use a more robust diode here until I got the circuit working if I were you. Subbing a 1n4007 high-voltage rectifier for a 100 volt germanium point-junction diode.... interesting. You might try 1n914 or 1n4148, low cost, relatively fast switching diodes. If a germanium diode isn't expected to pop, then I don't think a 1n914 would either. Once you are running then optimize, by increasing the base -collector resistor if you needed one, and lowering the operating voltage by using the germanium diode.
Last night I tried MPSA18 to sub for 2n2222 and it works significantly better at very low voltages. Have not yet tried higher voltages with the MPSA18, though.... but they are very cheap.

Also again...... are you interpreting your toggle switch correctly? Usually on small toggle switches, I think the contacts "opposite" the toggle handle position are closed. The way you have it drawn is, in my experience, backwards. So you might be trying to run on your depleted battery and trying to charge your full one !! Check the action of your switch with the continuity or ohmmeter function of your multimeter.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 26, 2012, 04:07:09 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on November 25, 2012, 10:43:55 PM
1ua . yes that is a nice one ! 15 for 2.84 http://www.ebay.com/itm/15PCS-Transistor-FSC-MOT-ON-TO-92-MPSA18-MPSA18G-/260979077822?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cc390b2be (http://www.ebay.com/itm/15PCS-Transistor-FSC-MOT-ON-TO-92-MPSA18-MPSA18G-/260979077822?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cc390b2be)

I'm finally down to the low microamp range!

In Ghost Light mode, with MPSA18 instead of 2n2222, and for the diode MUR1560 ultrafast high current diode, I am getting the light without touching at around 50 microAmps with 3 volts on the cap, and with touching a fully bright LED at around 2.5 volts and 1.2 milliAmps. (The current drops as the voltage drops. I started at 12 V and about 250 uA non-touching. I am amazed....)
And this is thru my 1.8 ohm series resistance LCheepo ammeter and also a 1 ohm series resistance in the negative lead at the 3055 emitter.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 26, 2012, 05:22:03 AM

Here's my "current" circuit, with the mods added to the basic LaserSaber crossover v.2 circuit. The 1.0 uF cap is to demonstrate the "charging" effect, and also in combo with the resistor across the diode it will produce a neat "flashing" mode.
With the MPSA18 the circuit is very sensitive and I've blown a couple of LEDs by having too much voltage (like over 2 volts !!) on the capacitor when switching modes. But the circuit can run in GL mode with 12 volts on the cap and it takes a long time to run down. With the MPSA18, the light glows in GL mode even without touching, depending on wiring and component layout, but touching brings it to full "GhostLight" brightness.

The lowest current draw I've seen with still visible light has been around under 50 microAmps. This is not yet to the 1 uA level but it is astounding to me anyway.

Note: use a center-off switch for the "mode" switch at the Q1 base; the MPSA18 doesn't need the resistor to start at higher voltages but might at low voltages.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 26, 2012, 06:31:57 AM

This is very interesting.

I've failed a couple of 2n2222s by having the "mode" switch at GL mode or off, charging the cap to 12 V and then switching to JT mode. With the LED, it blows the LED by shorting it. With no load, the 2n2222 fails, I think. But this latter failure.... is really really weird.

With a normal 2n2222 the circuit behaves "normally". But with the failed 2n2222 and 1 to 2 volts on the cap, or supplied by the battery.... the light comes on and none of the switches do anything! And of course the GL mode doesn't work.

I'll demonstrate this weirdness in a video shortly. Need a cup of coffee. At first I thought that the transistor was simply shorted, and allowing the 2n3055 to act as a single stage JT. But I removed the 2n2222 from its socket and can't duplicate the behaviour with jumpers shorting the transistor pins.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on November 26, 2012, 08:09:01 AM

Quote from: sarmasio on November 26, 2012, 12:15:56 AM
Hi,

I have tried to replicate the two battery charger variant of the joule thief.
Could not make it run, then after 4 trial I gave up. Can somebody help me with
this, I would like to make sure I-m doing right the toroid at least.
Which of the four variants is the good one?

best regards,
sarmasio

Sarmasio,

The circuit drawing (that I made) is correct and the switch is wired correct.
Now, take the red and orange marked wires (not the coil to the led) and twist them together.
Make 10 turns on the toroid. Solder the wires together at at the opposite twisted ends. This is the
top wire point. Connect the two other free ends to the resistor and to the collector of the transistor.
Make a single wire 20 turns for the LED output. Put a 10K variable resistor in series with the
1K resistor. Put a 1nF ceramic capacitor over the endpoints of the variable resistor and 1K resistor.
Now you can tune the oscillator frequency for best performance. Connect the batteries via a switch
as shown in the drawing. Adjust 10K variable resistor for best light in LED.

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on November 26, 2012, 08:20:35 AM

Quote from: TinselKoala on November 26, 2012, 06:31:57 AM
This is very interesting.

I've failed a couple of 2n2222s by having the "mode" switch at GL mode or off, charging the cap to 12 V and then switching to JT mode. With the LED, it blows the LED by shorting it. With no load, the 2n2222 fails, I think. But this latter failure.... is really really weird.

With a normal 2n2222 the circuit behaves "normally". But with the failed 2n2222 and 1 to 2 volts on the cap, or supplied by the battery.... the light comes on and none of the switches do anything! And of course the GL mode doesn't work.

I'll demonstrate this weirdness in a video shortly. Need a cup of coffee. At first I thought that the transistor was simply shorted, and allowing the 2n3055 to act as a single stage JT. But I removed the 2n2222 from its socket and can't duplicate the behaviour with jumpers shorting the transistor pins.

TK,

Have you measured (Ohm) the failed 2n2222 to see what failed?

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 26, 2012, 08:39:42 AM

Nice Going TK !! . Stay away from 12 volts to save your transistors . Now you are almost there if you can fire them on .7 you can try the ground and antenna tesla power .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 26, 2012, 09:26:56 AM

@Groundloop: no, what would be the fun in that? But I have taken the failed transistor out of its socket and jumped the socket with wire jumpers.... and it doesn't do anything but drain current. No light.

@Gadgetmall: Sure, I've got the ghost light from earth ground and the touch antenna if that's what you mean? , but the power for the light is coming from the cap, I think.

Anyhow, here's the video demo of the weird tranny mode (rocky horror?); it will be ready in a few minutes. I'd really like to understand what is happening.... Just when I think I've got this circuit figured out, it throws another curveball.

http://youtu.be/_UUj-iggzoU (http://youtu.be/_UUj-iggzoU)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 26, 2012, 09:33:46 AM

@Groundloop: Just checking: the two halves of the Orange coil are wound in opposite directions, yes?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on November 26, 2012, 09:41:16 AM

Quote from: TinselKoala on November 26, 2012, 09:33:46 AM
@Groundloop: Just checking: the two halves of the Orange coil are wound in opposite directions, yes?

TK,

No. The primary and trigger coil is twisted together. It's a normal Joule Thief.
I was just a poor drawing. I do not remember if I posted any coil instruction back then.
I posted this circuit back in 2011 because I wanted to try the two battery mode
to see how long I could run the circuit.

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: plengo on November 26, 2012, 11:18:38 AM

if you guys seen my video , ignore it (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1Fj4r-we84). I also show a few times the cap voltage increasing but no light at that level.

Fausto.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 26, 2012, 11:31:13 AM

@Fausto: Ignore it? No... it's an inspiration! Kind of long... but this circuit demands long explanations I suppose. Thanks for sharing, I subscribed...
:)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: plengo on November 26, 2012, 11:39:12 AM

Another thing I tried was putting a 25 watts LED in series with the input power and at 31v it runs extremely bright at around 1 or 2ma!!! And that is not counting the load LEDS on the secondary of the transformer (coil).

This circuit self-regulates the input current which I think is great, but off course any mistakes you cook your transistors.

I have to buy more transistor now, I burned all my 50 ones.

Fausto.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on November 26, 2012, 12:15:14 PM

I think that the self charging ability is coming from the capacitors captret effect. But, just like with the captret, the batteries would always eventurally get totally discharged. This is because the capacitor(s) self charging effect could not keep up with more than a single led as the load.
Another possible reason of the capacitor's self charging is the capacitive link from your workbench, through your body, etz... and was why Dr. Stiffler always isolated the Exciter circuits from the work tables, and any other possible source of capacitive AC input. Although he did use the house AC wiring's ground connection, which in my opinion is not a good clean ground. I can light an AV plug off of many things around my house, and also off of my outside earth ground. Could this not be the effect that some of the guys are seeing with this circuit... Yes, NO? The cap is being charged by this capacitive source, but won't keep up with the led bulbs draw, and discharges in a few seconds, or at most a couple of minutes time. So, TURN OFF the house AC breakers to test what happens with the circuit. This will eliminate that very common source of input into the cap, or batteries. There is practically no current in this source of capacitance link, yet leds will still light.
I'm not saying that that is what LS is seeing, but just beware that this effect can be a source of input for these circuits, if not isolated from this source of electrical interference.

Since Lasersaber tested this effect last night at his shed, and is still obtaining some positive results, even without any outside external source of power, there is more to this than what I mentioned above. So, what is the source of this input???

NickZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: plengo on November 26, 2012, 12:50:23 PM

@NickZ,

yes I agree.

Fausto.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 26, 2012, 01:47:56 PM

Quote from: Groundloop on November 26, 2012, 09:41:16 AM
TK,

No. The primary and trigger coil is twisted together. It's a normal Joule Thief.
I was just a poor drawing. I do not remember if I posted any coil instruction back then.
I posted this circuit back in 2011 because I wanted to try the two battery mode
to see how long I could run the circuit.

GL.

Ah, thanks. I wonder if it would work at all with the orange coil wound the way the picture seems to suggest, with the lower half wound one way and the other half wound the other way, with the LED windings in the middle. I'll have to unwind one of my toroids and rewind, to find out, I guess.
Thanks for your good work, again, by the way. Your schematics are great and have helped me a lot.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 26, 2012, 01:50:42 PM

Ah... even if I pull the house breakers, I still can't get more than about 30 meters from power lines. They are all around me, strung overhead and even underground. I might have to make up a "portable lab" and take a trip out to a more rural location.... they'll probably think I'm a spy or terrorist or something.....
:-\

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on November 26, 2012, 02:07:41 PM

I find that if the breakers are turned off, there is NO capacitive link being induced into my house wiring. I am also surrounded by power lines on two sides of my house, which are just a few yards away from my workbench, and devices....

To further test the capacitors captret effect or the capacitor's ability to absorb external power source influences from electrostatic induction from several possible sources, the following may be worth trying:
"There was also another version where the capacitor was used inside of coil's core to generate voltage. I think this was more interesting because there is inductive->electrostatic induction".

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hartiberlin on November 26, 2012, 04:18:14 PM

TK,
well done your last videos.

Try to use a at least 50 to 100 Ohm resistor from the plus pole of the cap to the
collector of the 2N2222 transsitor.

This way with higher voltages, you can not drive a too big current through this transistor.

It seems in your last video the collector - emitter path was shorted...

Hope this helps.

Regards, Stefan.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 26, 2012, 04:42:15 PM

Quote from: hartiberlin on November 26, 2012, 04:18:14 PM
TK,
well done your last videos.

Try to use a at least 50 to 100 Ohm resistor from the plus pole of the cap to the
collector of the 2N2222 transsitor.

Thanks, I'll try that right away.

Quote

This way with higher voltages, you can not drive a too big current through this transistor.

It seems in your last video the collector - emitter path was shorted...

I didn't show it in the video, but I took the transistor out of its socket and put jumpers in to short across the socket's pins in all combinations. I could not reproduce the behaviour with simple shorts in place of the "failed" 2n2222.
Perhaps it needs some little resistance in there, to make the 3055 oscillate. The failed transistor might provide enough for this; but a direct short across the pins doesn't work.

Quote

Hope this helps.

Regards, Stefan.

Thanks, I'm sure it will, and I appreciate the suggestions and the extra "eyeballs" to help figure out what's going on.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on November 26, 2012, 06:06:44 PM

Hi,

I have rebuilt my circuit from 2011 today. The circuit runs OK and I can switch between the two batteries.
I have not added the L3 coil and ultra bright LED yet, but will do that soon. Circuit drawing attached.

[EDIT1] I have now added a 200 turn 0,25mm L3 coil. The LED has a very bright output. Batteries is at approx. 1 Volt (drained).
The charge battery is slowly charging up.

GL

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sarmasio on November 26, 2012, 08:05:13 PM

GL,

This is nice, I knew the switching should be ok.
Thanks so much, this was my dream, to build one
included in a small box and just turn the switch to
get more power. I do really appreciate your work,
and willingness to help others.

best regards,
sarmasio

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on November 26, 2012, 08:45:48 PM

sorry
i had a messed up day .. yesterday.. after looking at your switch today it did look right.. i'm sure we all have off days..
i was thinking the two contacts in the switch were together yesterday..
sorry..
GL will this circuit with just capacitors or does it need batteries..

robbie

Title: jOULE LESS Thief
Post by: totoalas on November 27, 2012, 12:09:20 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vxLxo4JNks&feature=channel&list=UL

WITH DIFFERENT LOADS

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on November 27, 2012, 12:30:00 AM

Quote from: sarmasio on November 26, 2012, 08:05:13 PM
GL,

This is nice, I knew the switching should be ok.
Thanks so much, this was my dream, to build one
included in a small box and just turn the switch to
get more power. I do really appreciate your work,
and willingness to help others.

best regards,
sarmasio

Sarmasio,

Thank you. :-)

I did try a L3 coil of 60 turns (just before I went to bed last night) but that was not enough turns. The LED did light dimly.
So I estimate that you will need some few hundred turns on the L3 coil. I will try that after work this evening.

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on November 27, 2012, 12:40:23 AM

Quote from: kooler on November 26, 2012, 08:45:48 PM
sorry
i had a messed up day .. yesterday.. after looking at your switch today it did look right.. i'm sure we all have off days..
i was thinking the two contacts in the switch were together yesterday..
sorry..
GL will this circuit with just capacitors or does it need batteries..

robbie

Robbie,

No problemo. :-)

I do not think that this circuit can run very long on capacitors. The main idea was that you use the coil high voltage
spike to charge a second battery while using power from the first battery. Then when the first battery is drained,
you just flip the switch and get a little longer running time. But, it is fun to see the second battery charge. :-)

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: callanan on November 27, 2012, 01:47:04 AM

Hi All,

I am curious at the various levels of amazement that is shown by many at being able to light LEDs with very low power levels.

Please see the following circuit, which may amaze some of you. Transistor can be 2N2222 or any similar equivalent.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 27, 2012, 04:31:31 AM

Is that actually a 12 volt battery you have there, or am I missing a decimal point somewhere?

I am amazed and curious both at once, that you need a 12 volt battery to light up an LED, when most of us are doing it with well under one volt, and only slightly more current than your diagram indicates.

Still, it's interesting and I'm sure some folks will build it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: petersone on November 27, 2012, 04:41:17 AM

Hi TK
I sent you a private message, did you receive it ok?
peter

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: callanan on November 27, 2012, 04:52:51 AM

Quote from: TinselKoala on November 27, 2012, 04:31:31 AM
Is that actually a 12 volt battery you have there, or am I missing a decimal point somewhere?

I am amazed and curious both at once, that you need a 12 volt battery to light up an LED, when most of us are doing it with well under one volt, and only slightly more current than your diagram indicates.

Still, it's interesting and I'm sure some folks will build it.

Sorry to jump in here. I will leave you kind folk to do as you have been doing. Watts the point...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hoptoad on November 27, 2012, 05:06:18 AM

Quote from: callanan on November 27, 2012, 01:47:04 AM
Hi All, I am curious at the various levels of amazement that is shown by many at being able to light LEDs with very low power levels.
Please see the following circuit, which may amaze some of you. Transistor can be 2N2222 or any similar equivalent.
Regards,
Ossie

Hi Callanan, forgive me if I'm wrong but I believe I built one of your circuits posted on the stiffler thread about 2 years ago.
It worked great. My slightly different circuit (I used a standard am radio ferrite core with coils) only consumed around 3 u/Amps
at 9 Volts, powering 5 very brightly lit pairs of leds. (10 leds) I'm still quite astounded when I think about it!
I will try to find the circuit and post it here.

However, I'm also very cautious of trying to use the current (and voltage) measurements to accurately determine power delivered (consumed). That's because the circuit was oscillating in the MHz range, and was in effect, a low powered near field radio transmitter.

The problem with that is, much of the batteries potential energy which in most circuits is normally consumed kinetically in the form of current, is lost instead through radio frequency photon emission throughout the whole circuit. Below infra red, the term photon isn't generally used, but the dual particle / wave theorem still applies, as it does to the whole electromagnetic spectrum.

The electromagnetic (photonic) emission is diffused throughout the entire circuit, including from the battery itself, so measuring current only shows a small proportion of the kinetic power consumption through a cross section of the conductor, and not the kinetic energy emitted radially from the conductor at 90 degrees to the current.

Still, it was a fun, easy to build circuit. I linked up 20 pairs of leds (40 leds), each pair of leds connected as avremenko plugs, in a series daisy chain arrangement, and the current remained around the 20 - 25 uA range, depending on where I touched the circuit while it was on.

Cheers

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on November 27, 2012, 07:51:08 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QR7dEJtP79A

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 27, 2012, 08:22:29 AM

Hey Guys .. Nice circuit Groundloop .
Nice Builds TK and everyone getting these down to a few Ua's

This is just a recap of some of the work Other and I did back in 2008-2009 .
this circuit was one of my first prototypes i posted in the 400's page some where and i later posted one with a switch . it runs a very very very long time. Thus Eturnity light . or E-light . Later on i improved it withe special spacial transistors i made with some radioactive material baked inside a germanium Npn can. It uses a very tiny micro bead wound with #36 wire and is smaller than an eraser on a pencil.

And another one from Jesus who posted in 09 a self charger Jt circuit
and the last picture is one our Old friend Jeanna who we owe a lot for the research as we all hacked at it day and night like we are doing NOW. : We miss you Jeanna.

Merry Christmas and we hope you pop in sometime .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on November 27, 2012, 08:28:44 AM

@ Totoalas:
I would like to try to replicate your last circuit. I don't really understand the wiring.
Is it like the LS cross over circuit, or 3.0 version, but with the 12v battery negative terminal going to the earth ground?

Nick_Z

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on November 27, 2012, 08:37:33 AM

hI nickz'
the neg of battery is directly connected to earth ground and nothing more
the pos leg of battery is split to the led strip
one diode leg from led strip to the 220 v ac lamp the other to ac Neutral....
hope this help
totoalas

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on November 27, 2012, 09:00:59 AM

Totoalas:
I guess that the ground that you are mentioning is your earth ground? What is the neutral?
The positive from the battery is split?
It this the Joule Ringer version 3.0, or which circuit version are you using. I've looked at your video, a couple of times, but I'm not sure what is going on, yet.
Are you saying that the battery is NOT being discharged??? And the joule less circuit is using NO current? If there is voltage, it will show up on your meter, even if there is no current being registered.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on November 27, 2012, 09:13:47 AM

the battery ground and earth ground are connected
the neutral is from house AC line
from precious video line N to earth ground is 22 v ac and consumption is .013 ac amps
the dc reading i used is from battery pos to the avrenko plug - strip led
time to go for work
totoalas

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on November 27, 2012, 10:45:21 AM

Totoalas:
Ok, I think that I get it now. You are using the capacitive link from your AC wiring's neutral connection going to your earth ground to generate 22 volts, which provides the input to your circuit.
So, If you turn the AC house breakers off to simulate a power out condition, the circuit will not work, then, right? But, you mention that the 5 watt led bulb is still lighting just as brightly, as if, it were connected to the grid, so long as the gird power is working?
Normally this does not provide for much output to brightly light bulbs, as there is practically no current.
I only read 0.7 volts (AC) between my Ac. neutral and the outside earth ground, and 0 volts on the DC setting. Not enough to light an led. But, it will dimly light the led on an Av plug, to about 1/4 brightness, or so.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on November 27, 2012, 10:57:03 AM

The light will stay on as long as there is neutral earth connection the brightness is the samewith my jr 0 160 ma output 70% the battery is a little booster for the led strip since i cannot light both at the same time with ac neutral qnd 3arth ground alone......

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on November 27, 2012, 06:27:07 PM

Totoalas:
I'm now working with the LS cross-over circuit, as in his diagram. I'm just getting into it, and aleady seeing some unusual things going on. Not an easy circuit to deal with, but hopefully it will be worthwhile.
I'm seeing how the led lights up when the circuit is touched with ones hands or finger, and I have connected an earth ground and will connect the magnet up next. More on that soon...
Any ideas are welcome.
NickZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on November 27, 2012, 06:36:18 PM

Hi Nickz
good ... your on this also.... if you can amplify the voltage on the neutral / ground will be great ....... another idea is an aerial antenna in place of neutral so it can be strike anywhere lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on November 27, 2012, 07:04:32 PM

I'm familiar with using the AC ground and the earth ground as in my SEC Exciter circuits, and this cross over circuit has some similarities, as well.
I'm not going to depend on the lighting effect from the Ac ground or neutral connection, as that will not work when the grid power is off, but IF it can be done without it, by using other means, that would be great.
I'm still wondering why I can't duplicate the capacitance effect when using Cfls on an exciter circuit, like how the bulbs will light much brighter when they are held in ones hand. I'm still hoping to find a equally useful substitute for ones body capacitance, without having to make huge coils.
The antenna/ground idea is worth looking into with this cross over circuit.
I think that Dr. Stiffler, and his PSEC was going towards this same anomaly in his own way.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 27, 2012, 10:11:04 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMXCVuiQNLY

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hartiberlin on November 27, 2012, 10:20:33 PM

I posted this already in 1999 when I experimented with
a 12 Volts Fluorescent tube driver circuit, which works simular to a Joule Thief.

This also had some good Electron sucking capabilities from the ground,
so I am posting it here again as a reference.

The interesting thing was, that the Fl tube had a full square wave on it this way, having the diode
across the fl tube.

And the fl tube was pretty bright, but the circuit did not consume much more
when the tube was connected or not. So the difference input power between no fl tube connected and
fl tube connected was very low...

Regards, Stefan.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on November 28, 2012, 05:23:16 AM

These FL tubes consume very little current once they conduct at a higher enough voltage. I posted some time back a modified 14 watt ES domestic lamp lit up brightly held in my hand. The electronic drive circuit was removed and a modified camera flash circuit plus a single AAA battery was shoe horned into the screw in base.
Probably a similar effect here, the drive circuits alone is take all the current... if it's actually providing drive or just coupling the HV straight through the coupling transformer is debateable. Would be interesting to try removing the drive circuit completely and coupling the HV onto the transformers primary or again just like a modified FL direct onto the tube. Similar to neon gas that glows when a high voltage is applied, so FL tubes glow the same and as such very little current is required to achieve reasonable light.
Hence I'ts always the drive circuits that take the current that's necessary to create a high enough working voltage.
Kind regards Merv

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: powercat on November 28, 2012, 09:49:39 AM

Quote from: TinselKoala on November 27, 2012, 10:11:04 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMXCVuiQNLY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMXCVuiQNLY)

Hi TK great videos, eficiency just keeps getting better and better,
10,000 seconds is approximately 2 hours 46 minutes I wonder how much light energy there is from the LED to run a small solar cell and put power back into the capacitor, then how much longer would it run ?
It is such a breath of fresh air to look at a thread where everyone is helping each other and no one is making any extravagant claims they can't prove.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 28, 2012, 10:00:50 AM

I have confirmed this circuit is >1 with a nicad . I need someone to replicate it . My start voltage was 1.228 yesterday at 11am . today at 10:12 am it is now 1.248 and lit and continuing to rise . No emf devices are on near it and My Android phone says no emf in that area other than the device itself. ..My heart is Pounding ! you must use exactly the parts including the germanium diodes and .0001uf disk cap on your feedback legs . My unit is not grounded and no antenna.Now i am going to dismantle it and shorten all the wires and Box it .

I know i might jump the gun sometimes but i know what I see . I don't have an explanation for it but i like it all the same . This little transformer is an audio transformer with one winding i got out of a radio . it looks like a small E-Core . There was enough space to wrap a bell wire primary . I started with 12 turns and ended with 8 working perfectly . I used TWO diodes .. the Extra diode turned opposite from the first one . The Eureka moment cam about 8am when i placed a cap between the extra diode . the battery was checked yesterday and it was 1.228 standing volts before the circuit was energized . I simple put a cap this morning without shutting it off and it is really charging very good now . it is already 1.251 this second . all i can say is WOW>

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 28, 2012, 10:21:23 AM

@powercat, thanks, I need to confirm the speculation about the duration with testing with a real 10F cap, but I just can't afford one now. I can get up to about 3.4 Farad with what I've got on hand.

@gadgetmall...that is really cool result, I can't match that yet, I'm not seeing a real recharge although I do see climbing supply voltages on occasion. I have found that if _either_ lead of my bench PS is connected to the circuit, even if the PS is turned off, I get a nice strong light as long as the Earth ground is also connected. I'm finding that any connection to a mains-connected instrument screws up the evaluation; this makes me wish I had a fully isolated scope to play with like the Fluke 199 or some other portables. Alas, the one I used to borrow is not available right now.
If you use a cap in place of the NiCad, do you still see this kind of clear recharge effect?

@all: I am thinking of a circuit (for duplication of LTseung's work) that will automatically recharge the reservoir cap by briefly connecting it to a battery when the cap's voltage drops below a set limit. I imagine an op-amp comparator, 741 or similar, looking at the cap voltage and comparing that to an adjustable reference voltage. When the comparator flips state, it will trigger a monostable 555 to deliver a pulse (also of adjustable duration) to the gate of a mosfet that will make the battery connection to the cap, for the duration of the monostable pulse. Cap voltage rises and comparator flips, monostable timer resets when its duration is complete, and system is back at "run" state running on the cap only.
What do you think of this idea, and can anyone help with the circuit design?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 28, 2012, 10:38:59 AM

TK. Yes and No ;) with the 1.2 volt battery removed the light stops bit the voltage stays at .850 and the circuit is still running but no 220 volt light so i think it i try a different led on there it might light it . Also a ground and a small wire on this setup is on the to do list . If you built a crossover with the diode feedback try another diode the opposite way on the other side of the load to the other primary with and with out a disk cap and you will see it rise and not fall .i get even better results with .00022 or 220pf also .0001uf

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on November 28, 2012, 11:30:47 AM

Gadget and All:
I have made very close to the same circuit, and I am testing it now. Although I'm using the TIP 3055, and a 2n4017, and I'm connecting a 1N4148 diode from the secondary coil to the TIP 3055 negative rail. A big magnet is under my ferrite rod coil transformer, which is lighting a 9 led bulb. Some of the leds are burnt on this bulb but nine are still lighting
The diode connection makes a big difference in additional brightness, but the 6 AA batteries power pack gets slightly warm after running the device for a while.
I'll run this all day and see what happens.
Nick

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 28, 2012, 11:43:59 AM

@Nick: The white PVC tube is your battery pack?
And what happens if you remove or move the big magnet while the circuit is in operation?
Diode connected at negative rail to which end of secondary, and in what polarity?

FWIW, the 10 mH inductor that I got from a TV chassis and added a secondary to, for my 4 NE2 HVJT using a single 2n3055, has a magnet attached to one end of it, it came that way out of the TV. And another, smaller version from a smaller TV set, that I am about to wind with a secondary, came with _two_ magnets, one on each end of the ferrite spool bobbin.
I think this is done to bias the core, or to move it closer to full saturation, so that only little currents in the coil can push it over the edge. This bias will be unidirectional with the single magnet, I think: current in one direction saturates, current in the other "desaturates" the core. With two magnets there are lots of combinations for effects, more than I can consider right now, need more coffee first.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 28, 2012, 12:01:59 PM

Tk . are those old color Tv's ? I am an x tv repair man and that is the delay line ?. I did not know they had magnets on them .Now i wil have to hunt for a relic . I threw hundreds of them away three years ago ;(

NickZ .. good luck . i think you are using to much juice and that light is bright though . Yes let us know the start volts and the end volts ...

Mine has climbed to 1.272 from 1.228 and still rising . Not much light on 8 led 220 bulb but the amazing thing is it is a COLD circuit like really colder than the room if i shoot it with a laser thermometer. The other ones ran a few degrees above ambient .

Mine is boxed now and setting in my room by itself . I will check it threwout the day to confirm my findings..

In the meantime i am replicating my replication with the other homemade coil .

TK . if you have a spare delay line i'll trade ya for 4 nice germanium transistors (antiques) :) they are 39 bucks each now.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gyulasun on November 28, 2012, 12:07:47 PM

Quote from: TinselKoala on November 28, 2012, 10:21:23 AM
.....

@all: I am thinking of a circuit (for duplication of LTseung's work) that will automatically recharge the reservoir cap by briefly connecting it to a battery when the cap's voltage drops below a set limit. I imagine an op-amp comparator, 741 or similar, looking at the cap voltage and comparing that to an adjustable reference voltage. When the comparator flips state, it will trigger a monostable 555 to deliver a pulse (also of adjustable duration) to the gate of a mosfet that will make the battery connection to the cap, for the duration of the monostable pulse. Cap voltage rises and comparator flips, monostable timer resets when its duration is complete, and system is back at "run" state running on the cap only.
What do you think of this idea, and can anyone help with the circuit design?

Hi TinselKoala,

Your above idea reminds me a circuit from Jean-Michel Cour where his goal was to discharge a puffer cap into a battery at determined voltage levels of the puffer cap, see here: http://www.google.com/patents/US20070222411 (he got the patent on it too: US 7928700)

I think you can change that circuit to your exact needs. The patent text includes the complete operation with component values

Gyula

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gyulasun on November 28, 2012, 12:22:45 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on November 28, 2012, 12:01:59 PM
Tk . are those old color Tv's ? I am an x tv repair man and that is the delay line ?. I did not know they had magnets on them .Now i wil have to hunt for a relic . I threw hundreds of them away three years ago ;(

Hi Gadget,

They are not delay lines but horizontal linearity correction coils and the permanent magnet attached at one end of the core caused a variable partial saturation in the core, hence the coil inductance could be changed from outside. There was no need for slug-tuning method with a screwdriver because it detuned greatly the linearity coil to make it impossibly for correct adjustment. (and at the 15kHz involved the steel of the screwdriver would have been heated up-- induction heating by eddy current)

Sorry to chime in...

Gyula

EDIT: sorry but now that I watched Tinsel's earlier video on Joule Thief:Supplement ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9ZN5QJZClY&feature=channel&list=UL (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9ZN5QJZClY&feature=channel&list=UL) ) the transformer he showed is a current choke usually placed into the mains voltage input of television receivers or computer monitors to prevent switch mode noise getting out from the set to cause interferience on the mains line voltage and they normally are between 2.2mH to 4.7mH double coils but they have no permanent magnets. So if Tinsel used the same ferrite choke coils in his Goast circuit then it was not a horisontal linearity correction coil.Of course Tinsel will have a say here.. LOL

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on November 28, 2012, 01:08:37 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on November 28, 2012, 12:01:59 PM
Tk . are those old color Tv's ? I am an x tv repair man and that is the delay line ?. I did not know they had magnets on them .Now i wil have to hunt for a relic . I threw hundreds of them away three years ago ;(

NickZ .. good luck . i think you are using to much juice and that light is bright though . Yes let us know the start volts and the end volts ...

Mine has climbed to 1.272 from 1.228 and still rising . Not much light on 8 led 220 bulb but the amazing thing is it is a COLD circuit like really colder than the room if i shoot it with a laser thermometer. The other ones ran a few degrees above ambient .

Mine is boxed now and setting in my room by itself . I will check it threwout the day to confirm my findings..

In the meantime i am replicating my replication with the other homemade coil .

TK . if you have a spare delay line i'll trade ya for 4 nice germanium transistors (antiques) :) they are 39 bucks each now.
Nice results Gadget.....
Hope you can test with solar panels / 12 v with micro Amps output lol
totoalas

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 28, 2012, 01:27:10 PM

totoalas no i hate 12 volts . A real Joule thief operates at a very low voltage . In fact just enuff to trigger a transistor into switching . Any more than that and you will never know what you got . The fact is most leds are drivable without any circuit at all above 2.7 volts,some 1.9(red) (clear green). If you use leds as most here will it is important to keep the voltage way below 1.5 volts / After that it is a matter of coil ratio to light anything such as cfl or many led bulbs.
On the other hand there is a place for 12 volts IF you can keep your 12 volts at that voltage and do work at the same time .

But 12 volts in the middle of a field is not easy to come by in an emergency and as of not it just is a big battery .
1.2 volts is easy to obtain from the ground with carbon magnesium rods and they can produce for 5 to 20 years without going "dead"

Hey guys i have replicated my replication and it is repeatable :) Using other parts like that homemade choke coil and mpsa05 pairs . The schematic is exactly like lasersabers ,no start cap but the difference is the extra diode cap feedback on the oppisite leg. It dam works ! I am glad i kept at it . On my third replication with the Biting Coil . AHHHHH. now this is HIGH voltage with 1.2 volts and i am a bit scare of it cause this is not normal Hf . this is splatter hvrf . ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on November 28, 2012, 01:44:08 PM

Thanks gadget
The reason lasersaber and slayer made some 12v mod for practical home lighting in my place with a 5w 18v solar panel i have 20 Pcs of 220v ac led lamps 160 ma input to a jr ckt 60% light output for outdoor lighting
Theoutput from my jr is connected back to the battery when the lights are off and charging via in4007 diode
Same goes with my six filar ss ssg one xtra coil with diode charging back the battery when solar is off but @ a certain time when no more oscillation takes place

Totoalas

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 28, 2012, 01:53:48 PM

Totoalas . Yes i know . I have a 12 volt system also with big panels and wind gen . I keep my light bill low with a 12 volt gridtie and a second 12 volt for inverters ans lighting etc. i agree there is a place for those experiments and also i have done them with a self charging bedini with a "piggy back coil" fun stuff for sure .

I just like low to no power sources and i believe we just got one . If it every stops charging it must be running in the nano amp range with the dual diode and cap setup that is very dang close to what we are after here . Next test HV shocker! crossover mods.

Keep up the great work guys and lots of experiments left //

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on November 28, 2012, 02:02:42 PM

Thats great
lot of options
been using a negative source battery connected to an open ditch canal in a slum area to save on wiring..........and only wire the positive like in automotive wiring for lighting lol
Since the price of copper had risen im planning to use a plastic hose filled with water in place of the battery ground lol
your new set up is what im looking for / maybe ill add a small solar from old calculators and you have your Eternity light 2 lol

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 28, 2012, 03:02:26 PM

@Gadgetmall... 1n80? I'm redrawing your schematic and .... er..... I can't find a diode with that part number, it comes up as a high voltage mosfet. Did you mean 1n60 or 1n34a, germanium diodes?

The only delay lines I've seen in these modern TVs are very strange slabs of glass with tiny wires bonded to them, I don't understand at all. They are very delicate but I think I didn't destroy this one, but I have no idea how to use it. Nothing I've done to it gives a reaction that I can tell. ADL-CN-336L is the part number, made by Ashai Glass Company in Japan.

What is the part number of the germanium transistors you have? My RM503 scope uses 4 in its preamp. I have a couple of 2n2635s left.... But no, thanks for your kind offer, I'd feel really badly knowing that the transistors cost so much. If you need this silly delay line I'll be happy to give it to you.

@gyulasun: No, in the LS ghostlight/crossover circuit I am using an E-core transformer-type thing from the TV, it has a primary of a smaller number of turns of thick wire like #24 and a lot of turns of very fine wire, #32 or finer. It's wrapped up in plastic tape so I really have no idea of the turns ratio except that there are a lot of the finer wire turns.

I have two of the coils in the resonance video, with the 1:1 windings and rectangular ferrite loops, they work well in basic JTs for LED lighting. I showed the smaller one in the "determining resonance" video. On my ProsKit inductance meter each coil measures about 21 milliHy. This meter is weird though... every time I measure a factory-marked inductor the meter agrees with the marking very closely if not exactly, in all its ranges. When I measure random or home made inductors.... it can be wildly off. I dunno.

My favorite TV coils are the ones with the magnets, as I used in the 4x NE2 JT.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on November 28, 2012, 05:27:55 PM

TinselKoala:
To answer your questions... Yes, the white pvc is my 6 AA battery pack, it can be made in bigger sizes for C or D cells, and can be 6v or 12v or higher voltages if needed. The screw caps keep the cells tight, and has adjustable screws on the ends for connections. Works well, and costs me nothing to make it. It is also rechargeable from AC wall adapters, or solar panel sources. Works well for the 3.0 ringer circuit, but, I'll make a bigger 15 volt solar powered one for that project.
If I move the big magnet that is under my transformer coil, it changes the sound and frequency of the ferrite rod's ringing sound. But not much else, at least that I can notice.
I am not using the diode to the primary negative anymore, as it does discharge the batteries, and have moved it over like LS has it on the positive of the battery connection. Now the10 led light flickers a bit, like Totoalas, or LS in their videos. The diode can be replaced with an led, which will sometimes light both ways, strange, and even when just holding one end of it, while the other is connected to the secondary coil side, lights either way (polarity) around also.
If I place a 47.000 microfarad capacitor as the input source, it will run a single led for about a minute and goes out. This is with an outside earth ground, connected to the same place as is in the LS diagram, but using no AC ground to my circuit, as I see no point in doing that.
I still only see discharging of my AA batteries, but I know there is some magic to this elusive circuit, if you can find it. So, I'm still playing around with all this, not a done deal, by any means.

12v solar powered circuits are what I'm after, as I'm trying to light my house, not just make more 1 volt joule thiefs. I already have a bunch of those. I do agree that it's best to use a single AA to perfect this circuit, until we get it right. But, If there is no outside source of input coming into the device, there is NO way that it will make more juice than it's taking in. The grid's ground, or neutral connection is not going to help, neither is the phone lines free 110 volts output. But the phone line lit my house up when the power was out, and can do the same for you. So, keep it in mind... it could come in very handy, one of these days.
Back to work on the cross over...
Nick

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 28, 2012, 06:02:32 PM

Quote from: TinselKoala on November 28, 2012, 03:02:26 PM
@Gadgetmall... 1n80? I'm redrawing your schematic and .... er..... I can't find a diode with that part number, it comes up as a high voltage mosfet. Did you mean 1n60 or 1n34a, germanium diodes?

The only delay lines I've seen in these modern TVs are very strange slabs of glass with tiny wires bonded to them, I don't understand at all. They are very delicate but I think I didn't destroy this one, but I have no idea how to use it. Nothing I've done to it gives a reaction that I can tell. ADL-CN-336L is the part number, made by Ashai Glass Company in Japan.

What is the part number of the germanium transistors you have? My RM503 scope uses 4 in its preamp. I have a couple of 2n2635s left.... But no, thanks for your kind offer, I'd feel really badly knowing that the transistors cost so much. If you need this silly delay line I'll be happy to give it to you.

@gyulasun: No, in the LS ghostlight/crossover circuit I am using an E-core transformer-type thing from the TV, it has a primary of a smaller number of turns of thick wire like #24 and a lot of turns of very fine wire, #32 or finer. It's wrapped up in plastic tape so I really have no idea of the turns ratio except that there are a lot of the finer wire turns.

I have two of the coils in the resonance video, with the 1:1 windings and rectangular ferrite loops, they work well in basic JTs for LED lighting. I showed the smaller one in the "determining resonance" video. On my ProsKit inductance meter each coil measures about 21 milliHy. This meter is weird though... every time I measure a factory-marked inductor the meter agrees with the marking very closely if not exactly, in all its ranges. When I measure random or home made inductors.... it can be wildly off. I dunno.

My favorite TV coils are the ones with the magnets, as I used in the 4x NE2 JT.

I have two glass germanium diodes . Opps. i know the one with two lines is 1n60 . i use the one with one line so 1n34a ?

i have bunches of sets of germanium transistors . 100's of them .. from 2n123a up . i only have two if hep638's ahh 2n1304 06 08's man i got lots of old can germaniums . there was a guy selling them by lots of 180 at one time . I bought him out all 5 auctions.

TIA for a real schematic tk.

The delay lines are in old color tv's . It is a horizontal coil wound with wire or there were glass ones also on the Board and delays the color signal . i remember them rater big and long though . kind of tapered on the ends. . i have no idea what you got with a magnet . the only thing i remember after a two year college coarse is the yoke has ring magnets on it to adjust the convergence Man it was way back in 1979- 1990 . i repairs 1000's of them till the boards became surfacemount and disposable .. I had filing cabinets full of sam's for most of them. I have forgot most of it .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on November 28, 2012, 06:37:53 PM

gadget and tk
what are u guys calling delay lines.. i may have a bunch..
i strip crt's, tv's, and microwaves, all bunch of of things..

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 28, 2012, 06:45:46 PM

Hey robbie. I was looking for the part Tk used . I don't remember replacing one,probably because they never go bad.. thank you anyways . i got lot of junk too ,all stored right now but maybe this winter i'll dig in it now that the snakes are froze:)it going to be 26f tonight . And like you ,down south east ,one mans junk is another mans treasure..
What he has sounds like a mini magnacoaster part :) here is the delay line i remember . the blue part . the horizontal coil at the bottom right are the ones i remember with a slug in the middle of them to adjust it (we used plastic alignment tools ). they were made of paper with wax with a fat winding on it
Man these things were made to last a life time .And you can stock you parts drawers with them.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 28, 2012, 07:30:47 PM

@Nick... thanks, that is a really cool way to handle the batteries. I've been struggling with loose batteries and finally made that little board you see, but for larger or more, I am going to use your excellent system, I think. I've got a bunch of springs that will make ideal inner contacts, too. Thanks!
I'm not sure about directly scaling up from low voltage to 12 volts. I've blown several transistors and load LEDs doing that; you probably will have to adjust the resistance in the base leg of the first transistor and also perhaps the collector currents, and of course use the heatsink especially for the TO-220 devices like the TIP transistor.

@Gadgetmall: You're welcome, it always helps me to redraw the schematic, I pretend I'm electrons (or zipons, whatever) zipping around in there and it helps me to understand what's happening in the circuit. Please check the image over and let me know right away if I've made any errors, so that I can fix them.
I've also shown the choke with its magnets, and the delay line that I mentioned: inside there's a mysterious slab of very thin glass with a couple of attach points , indium solder plated I think, from the four pins on the bottom. That is all, no other components in there at all. I have no clue what it is supposed to do or how it operates, and I couldn't figure it out from the website either. I've seen delays like the one in your _ancient_ TV.... that brings back memories for sure. Discrete components! No, the TVs I've taken apart recently have been modern, last-generation CRT types that people just chuck when they upgrade to a modern HDTV with a flatpanel screen. Circuit boards, lots of ICs, lots of good electrolytic caps, the nice rectified output flybacks, etc.
Do you have 4 ea. 2n1749 motorola germanium transistors? If so.... let's make a deal! I might be able to get a better DC balance on the RM503 if I had a new set of preamp transistors for the old thing.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 28, 2012, 07:38:32 PM

Tk . Yes that is perfect ! that is what i got .. I think most transformers no matter the ratio will work just need some on eto verify i am not going nuts here . i am astounded by the circuit and the little modifications i did . I am on my third replication . had to call it a night working on the . I have two running and just check they are on the rise ! .

One thing . to get rid of my capacitor box i placed several 67pf's parallel . 3 of them to get that "balance" better . so i think 220pf worked and also .0001

this is the only bulb that lit that i use http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-5W-7-SMD-Warm-White-E27-New-Style-LED-Light-Bulb-Lamp-220V-/160907486635?pt=US_Light_Bulbs&hash=item2576d565ab (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-5W-7-SMD-Warm-White-E27-New-Style-LED-Light-Bulb-Lamp-220V-/160907486635?pt=US_Light_Bulbs&hash=item2576d565ab)

and this is the audio transformer i wound like a big Fuji xformer . I think a fuji transformer might also work here also . I want to try it tomorrow when my eyes rest . I got a germanium board ready for it and a super cap as a battery on it in parallel with another 10000uf . I want to see if it need chemical batteries to cause this thing to keep charging . unreal .
In the pic are the diodes , the red clip and black wire went to the cap box but now it is replaced and boxed up . I will disturb it tomorrow sometime and check it again . The Led bulb is about 20 to 30 percent lite so it is Ghostly lit. but is lighting 7 smd leds in there and is a night light .

Yea you got some weird parts there . I never seen them before. must be to "modern" for me and probably on a module i think .

Thank you !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 28, 2012, 09:13:55 PM

My pleasure.

Here's another weirdness I just noticed.... and that cost me another white LED. If I hook one end of a green LED to my scope ground probe, and the other end to the Earth ground, the green LED glows just barely perceptibly, almost not noticeable but definitely there if you look. Either orientation, same thing, proving AC.
But if I do the same thing with the White LED..... I get a dim flash, then nothing.... and the LED is ruined, but neither open nor short.... it measures 10-25 ohms, same value in both directions. I've accidentally done this to several white LEDs, I now realize, and that's where the 10-25 ohm range comes from. Of course it gives no more light.

I just found my last TIP3055 in the box, it's unused, and I have plenty of unused 2n2222a, and a few 1n60 and 1n34a diodes. Have to look around for the 100 pF cap though... and no good NiCads, but some good NiMH cells. So I'll be busy tonight....
;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 28, 2012, 11:26:56 PM

Cool . Like i said you can gang some caps together to get it dimmer and then it charges . .Wow my nicad is now 13.03 volts . One Note for you . when you attach a meter lead on the pos the light gets brighter thus the voltage drops . Another weird thing is the negitive lead when touched with a meter probe the light gets dimmer and the voltage increases . So what i do it let it run without the meter attached after the initial increase and later hook it up briefly now . it is getting more sensitive as the battery increase ..

I'll dig thru My lot of germaniums tomorrow when the ole eyes can see clear and see if we have those for you

Edit yes was typo 1.303 ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hoptoad on November 29, 2012, 12:16:52 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on November 28, 2012, 11:26:56 PM
snip..
Wow my nicad is now 13.03 volts .
snip..

Is that a small typo, should it be 1.303 volts. ? Or are you running your circuit from a 12 volt battery instead of a 1.2 volt battery ?

Cheers

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hoptoad on November 29, 2012, 12:38:49 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on November 28, 2012, 12:01:59 PM
snip...
Mine has climbed to 1.272 from 1.228 and still rising . Not much light on 8 led 220 bulb but the amazing thing is it is a COLD circuit like really colder than the room if i shoot it with a laser thermometer. The other ones ran a few degrees above ambient .
snip....

This is one of the most interesting paragraphs I've read on this forum since 2007. If there is no mistake in your observations, then both the rising battery voltage and below ambient running temperature, pose a very interesting combined phenomenon worthy of serious investigation.
Cheers

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: hartiberlin on November 29, 2012, 01:23:47 AM

Well done Gadget. Looking forward to see more clear videos from you.
Please use a tripod and explain all in detail.
Could also be a longer video if you wish.

@TK,
maybe you should always put preresistors in front of your LEDs and you
your transistors and diodes, so you don´t blow them up....

Also it would be interesting to see to put a "freewheel" at least 1 Watts LED across the primary of the transformer ,(better together in series with a 10 Ohm resistor) to see, how big the Back-EMF spike is there...

Would be also interesting to see scopeshots of the latest circuit from Gadget at all points of the circuit to nail things down.

Sorry, got sidetracked with programming and Wordpress plugins, so experimentation will
start again, when Lasersaber has posted an update movie of his circuit.

Regards, Stefan.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 29, 2012, 01:47:53 AM

Ah, resistors, they waste power..... but really I've been lucky, I've only blown a few components, not nearly as many as some! And you have to admit that my components fail in interesting ways....
Sometimes I can even find all the pieces!

I'm uploading a different codec (xvid) compression version of that last "scoping the line" video, Stefan, by your suggestion .... twice as large filesize, estimated 40 minutes for the upload or longer.... I hope it's worth it in quality. If it is, I'll use that from now on unless I'm in a hurry.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: rensseak on November 29, 2012, 02:01:48 AM

Quote from: TinselKoala on November 29, 2012, 01:47:53 AM
I'm uploading a different codec (xvid) compression version of that last "scoping the line" video, Stefan, by your suggestion .... twice as large filesize, estimated 40 minutes for the upload or longer.... I hope it's worth it in quality. If it is, I'll use that from now on unless I'm in a hurry.

@TinselKoala

Where Stefan did suggest it?
I will give you a good tool for compression vidos for youtube and this is handbrake (http://handbrake.fr/downloads.php) , it make high compression with nearly no loss and youtube do not change it. Sincerely

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 29, 2012, 02:13:30 AM

Quote from: gyulasun on November 28, 2012, 12:07:47 PM
Hi TinselKoala,

Your above idea reminds me a circuit from Jean-Michel Cour where his goal was to discharge a puffer cap into a battery at determined voltage levels of the puffer cap, see here: http://www.google.com/patents/US20070222411 (http://www.google.com/patents/US20070222411) (he got the patent on it too: US 7928700)

I think you can change that circuit to your exact needs. The patent text includes the complete operation with component values

Gyula

I forgot to thank you for this. Yes.... ironically the top part of the Drawing Page 2 depicts just exactly what I had in mind, using an op amp as comparator switching a mosfet... I'm going to have to think about the rest of the circuit to understand it. Thanks again!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 29, 2012, 02:22:52 AM

Quote from: rensseak on November 29, 2012, 02:01:48 AM
@TinselKoala

Where Stefan did suggest it?
I will give you a good tool for compression vidos for youtube and this is handbrake (http://handbrake.fr/downloads.php) , it make high compression with nearly no loss and youtube do not change it. Sincerely

In a comment on the video. Thanks, I've heard of handbrake, I'll install it and try it right away.

ETA: Ok, with Handbrake to the default settings it makes a filesize of about 177 MB in .m4v format. It looks perhaps slightly better in fullscreen here on the computer directly than the Xvid conversion by WinFF at 108 MB. I have uploaded the WinFF version to YT, and I'll upload the Handbrake version after a while. I haven't watched the YT version yet but I'm sure it's got to be a lot better than my first version.

Thank you both for the suggestions!
--TK

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 29, 2012, 06:20:21 AM

Holy crap . I am up 6:18 and that little circuit is putting out over 1.535 Instantaneously and the light got brighter and it is setting 1.466 On a Nicad ? Man . Chills// and yea it is 21 degrees F outside . everything is froze ,even my flags . Crystal clear and the moon looks like the sun . Beautiful day for light and playing with circuits inside.

I hope this battery don;t short out like My skinless battery did . It also rised and now i know a night of running will carry a cell over 1.5 volts . Old batteries just die especially Nicads if the over charge . But anyways i am getting Great results . Moray ? I need to mount this stuff . It is sitting in a plastic box soldered . My box is way to big so i will wait when i have a smaller one i think .

Stephan , Yes resistors are a nono in this circuit as they kill whatever is happening . Running from a CAp/Nicad this circuit has exceeded any previously project . It is repeatable guys . Just do it and you will see. It may work with a 12 volt system . I don;t know and won;t find out as i need my transistors so i willl stay at single cell for now . I can do pretty much anything anyone can with an aa powered unit . The lS3 runs real Power from a C cell and i have a video there to prove that I Am not good anymore making videos with Movie maker . It takes too much time ..but i can do it later on after someone else makes this . I replicated it so it is doable for others to try . This is a real Charge not static . I just tested the battery with a different meter and loaded it is a solid 1.310 . this would be close to an 8 hour charge on my 110 volt battery charger . All the nicads i have settle below this over night . plus this battery was just laying around for awhile and it was on it's way to 1.1 volts .. I am dizzy with prospects of integrating this fix in My Pocketpower+

hoptoad . yes sir i put t5he decimal in the wrong place . Running a nicad here and it is more than exciting to see this happening . The circuit likes to be left alone and i don't know even if it can be scoped . Every thing external on the circuit changes it . leads act like antennas and change the output . I think it needs a special apparatus to inductively couple any leads without actually touching it . Any suggestions as to what that might be?

Well getting coffee in me . I tried a germanium and darlington last night on a small coil i wound on a small ferrite rod about an inch and could not get the basic crossover to work so i an working on that trying different transistors i have .. The MpSa14 is a straight darlington and i wold have thought it would work for the primary exciter .. testing ..

Drafted Schematic by -Jesus. Thank you Jesus you are Great!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 29, 2012, 09:07:24 AM

I have got a new tiny coil i made lighting a green led running on caps . there is a balance , it uses the same setup as before except NO battery . I am using a new transistor setup with germanium transistor2n1605 with a darlington(mpsa14 as the primary transistor and 1000uf cap and one tiny super cap 1farad .the circiut is charged to 1.5 volts . it is holding up @ 1.65 so far the cap before the second diode is almost exactly the same as before where this circuit begins to charge itself . More experimenting and experimenters should look into this . I am overwhelmed at what i am seeing . I can't begin to explain it . No ground no antenna. the only antenna might be the wire but it's short wire. this is My third replication running. I need some more good led bulbs like i use in the first circuit. I have to put a resistor in series with the green clear led to make the circuit work . Once started the led lights and the feedback circuit goes to work .

Edit : it's 10 am and this little tiny coil blew white leds in series . I touched the circuit across the leds and they lit super bright shorting them out . New set on there . this darlington seems to work nice down to about .96 volts . This is where it blew leds. I ditched the green for a brighter lights . amazing me. I also have a resistor sub box and the leds need resistance to get that "balance" and light More later ...

uploading a short clip of my 3rd self charging selfrunning circuit posted . I made this coil last night from a piece of ferrite rod from a computer power supply . I just put one layer of #36 fine tesla wire as the secondary(a drop of super glue to hold the first few turns and the last turn) then used # 26 bell wire 11 turns with a remainder of 4 more wraps to play with . ended up 15 turn primary .. it appears any coil will work as this is My third replication and all three are self charging . the difference in this one is it is running on caps and charging them running two white leds. I love tiny circuits that work especially one that can blow an led in a instant off 1 volt . I will let this one run while i go to the store ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 29, 2012, 10:50:19 AM

http://youtu.be/cK6BIuwd_2c

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: lasersaber on November 29, 2012, 12:19:16 PM

New video update here: http://youtu.be/SdXAjT2QPiQ (http://youtu.be/SdXAjT2QPiQ)
In this video I also show the dielectric absorption effect that can be very deceiving.

Forum Discussion at: http://laserhacker.com/forum/index.php?topic=70.0 (http://laserhacker.com/forum/index.php?topic=70.0)

Updated schematic coming soon at: http://laserhacker.com/ (http://laserhacker.com/)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on November 29, 2012, 12:50:21 PM

After watching the latest LS video, I would have to say that in my opinion, it is not just what he calls the "bounce back effect" from the capacitor. As the capacitor is actually recharging itself as in the Captret tests, but it won't keep up with a higher draw from the AC bulb like the one that he is using. That is why the bulb goes to a lower brightness output level, and will maintain at that output, possibly forever.
If a few carbon/Mg cells are connected to the capacitor, it will maintain it's higher output to a more useable and higher degree.

@Gadget:
Please disconnect the AC breakers, to see if that capacitive link from the grid is what is keeping your system from discharging. That will help to keep us all from pissing into the wind.

This is what it's doing for me (video below): You don't even need a cross over circuit, as just an Av plug will light off of the capacitive link, by itself. The cross over circuit just amplifies this same effect, using the capacitor's Captret self charging ability. Me thinks...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xur_VChGdzE

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 29, 2012, 01:07:55 PM

Nickz I also agree that what others are seeing is some kind of itty bitty recovery . Mine is not . I know the difference and can spot recovery a mile away . The people that think this is recovery are not adding the parts !
before i made this mad the Ls circuit was just a great circuit and it would appear to charge then drop off . that is not happening here . Also I told you that there is no EMF in the areas . You can check emf with a good Android phone and entity detector . It is very sensitive.

Also you explination of the led cannot keep up with the charge when brigyht is a GREAT observation ,exactly like mine and you explained at the GHOST lite (dim) led allows the charge to happen while displaying part of the work in dim light . EXACTLY!

to satisfy you and Myself i disconnected My breakers and set the first 220setup outside in the cold barn . No electricity out there in the middle of 2 acres . I checked before hand and it is setting solid at 1.309 @ 1:09pm .This is the same nicad that had a resting voltage cold at 1.228 two days ago . see what i mean ???

the other two are still gainig;) no connect to anything external at all ..

Also pissing in the wind? all you have to do is add one diode and a disk cap to prove it to yourself:) .

Waiting near my fireplace as it is cold outside .

On my 4th circuit now and have three running themselves... Next one is high voltage Ecore the Shocker and it lights any bulb with 1.2 volts

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 29, 2012, 01:25:03 PM

This bounce back effect for electrolytic capacitors is well known to electronic engineers. It can be avoided by using mica or film capacitors. These have less capacitance than electrolytic capacitors, but if the circuit is truly self running it should not need a large capacitor value.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Hoppy on November 29, 2012, 01:31:29 PM

Quote from: lasersaber on November 29, 2012, 12:19:16 PM
New video update here: http://youtu.be/SdXAjT2QPiQ (http://youtu.be/SdXAjT2QPiQ)
In this video I also show the dielectric absorption effect that can be very deceiving.

Forum Discussion at: http://laserhacker.com/forum/index.php?topic=70.0 (http://laserhacker.com/forum/index.php?topic=70.0)

Updated schematic coming soon at: http://laserhacker.com/ (http://laserhacker.com/)

Excellent video. I'ts all to easy to inadvertently put a heavy load on the battery and get this charging effect. Another way is to have a low battery in the meter. Its good policy to spend out on a good quality meter and not use cheap meters.

I'm currently running your crossover circuit with Gadget's mod and monitoring running voltage to 4 decimal places with a good quality Tektronix TX3 DMM. Its amazing how slowly the fourth digit is decrementing! This circuit will run for many hours without the second digit changing. I have a fairly bright LED as a load and am using an 'E'-core ferrite core for the transformer. I did think at one point that I had a free runner as my voltage on my nearly 'flat' NimH AA cell climbed for over an hour before stabilising. I realised after that I had previously accidentally shorted the battery and had not waited for the big 10,000 cap to stabilise before starting the run.

Another thing to watch is that this circuit can vary in frequency just by touching various points and by applying an earth. This has the effect of the battery appearing to charge when the frequency drops. Its not easy to realise that this is happening if the frequency is high and the reduced frequency does not cause the LED to visually flash or the frequency cannot be heard.

keep up the good work.

Regards
Hoppy

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 29, 2012, 01:38:09 PM

Xee2 ? What are your suggestions at to cap values ? So far i have worn out battery.cap combinations . i had 10 of the big 10000uf 25volt caps so i used them . .

Others . I know what i see . I realize that thru the years i have learned the do's and donts . I also am fully aware of cap and battery recovery and having new batteries in my meters which i do . I saw recovery before this mod not after .

i guess what i have posted will be conscrewed to death :)

I need anyone who is experimenting with Ls crossover to use the mods and see for them selves and post their results . I always wondered about Lasersabers joule ringer 1 and NEVER could get it to work and not many did . NOW . i see three different replications i made and they all work better than the LS1 with no hassle at all making them work . ..

And i also have 4 digits and the the last three are rising on all my circuits . If you are dropping you need a different cap between the second germanium . Note that any germanium diode will not work . it has to be one of the two I think it is 1n34a with one stripe . as the other older two strip will not work 1n60 . also note that the LIGHT you use cannot be just an led . It has to have some resistance in it like a 220 led bulb . There you will obtain the Balance in light and charge.

a good circuit will require good tools . My resistor and cap box are those tools for setting this circuit to a balance . once that happens then i can hunt for replacement parts for them .If you have "bright light you will not see this charging take place. forget light when you are setting this up . the light is just an indication that the circuit is running. This is why it is important to run on less that the led will take in volts alone .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 29, 2012, 01:50:35 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on November 29, 2012, 01:38:09 PM
Xee2 ? What are your suggestions at to cap values ? So far i have worn out battery.cap combinations . i had 10 of the big 10000uf 25volt caps so i used them . .

Any value mica, ceramic, or film capacitor will not have the bounce back effect. If you can get your circuit to work with a 1 uF ceramic capacitor that will eliminate any chance of capacitor bounce back. Also, electrolytic bounce back is usually less than 2 volts (typically about 0.5 volt) so if you get a voltage gain of 5 or 10 volts with your electrolytic capacitors that would eliminate the chance that it was just bounce back.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on November 29, 2012, 02:04:56 PM

Gadget:
I'll add the diode/cap, and let you know what I find. We are all in this together, to help each other out. At least I am, ok. Great.

The main thing to remember is that the energy is always coming in the form of a conversion process, and not from the Christmas Spirit, Easter bunny, etz... So, where is this additional energy to charge the battery, or caps coming from. That is the question. Dielectric absorption. Probably.
This is not dependent of the grid leakage, or body capacitance.

So, as most of us here have also made some home made "crystal cells", why not add those cells to the input cap, both in series, as well as in parallel, and see what happens.
I also think that using two 2n2222 or two MPSA06 instead of the higher power but less efficient 2n3055, or TIP3055 type of transistors, will see a higher gain from this type low output circuit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 29, 2012, 02:16:53 PM

Ncikz . Agree . When you make the circuit get a balance going first with the resistance in series with an led or in my case two leds in series and a 33kresistor . But also this resistance needs a balance of the capacitor in series with the diode . Aim for low light and indicator. from there the circuit is in a jitter state and any external touching will either make it brighter on the pos or dimmer on the neg. you can leave your meter leads on it if you like but i found that messes up the balance and makes it charge Less . So i keep them disconnected till reading ..this morning was a shocking result over 1.5 volts and the nicad was only setting ar 1.228 two days ago.Nicads don't charge that high but this one held it for a bit until the light got brighter and it lost balance. . i don't even know if a cap is needed yet . Might not need one .

Ok . I just checked the cold unit setting outside . Guess what . it is 1.659 across the nicad and cap .. not emf . not staticvolts . Usable energy .. Power from itself.Or from the vacuum of space itself . OR i have rediscovered power from the aether as Moray did by time consuming experimenting , I bet he had a cap sub and resistor box too :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on November 29, 2012, 02:45:05 PM

To your suggestion of using only a single 1.5 volt battery, instead of the 12v one, so to not get fooled by higher voltages and current levels that can light leds, even without a circuit.
I've connected an Alkaline D size cell to my 4700 microfarad input cap. The combination of the two input sources really kicks ass.
And can also easily be connected to a 4 volt solar garden cell, to keep it all going strong. Or, stronger yet.
I'm looking for the diodes, now... more soon.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Lakes on November 29, 2012, 03:02:31 PM

Just a thought about non-contact measurement of this circuit.

Maybe you could have a photocell (connected to a scope)measuring the light out from the LED and it would also show the oscillation?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 29, 2012, 03:26:07 PM

thats a good idea lakes.. I can set up a circuit with leads attached . it is sort of easy i think . When attaching leads it throws of the balance BUT i can hook the resistor and cap box up and i believe i can rebalance the circuits with all the leads attached BUT then they will somehow say it's those lead powering the circuit :) so i like your idea .

I like the Old saying if it works don't fix it. Not that is it that hard to do .

I need to know if i hook a scope up what needs to be seen . i have a duel trace data scope with two probes bot have 1x and 10x ..I paid like 80 bucks for it several years ago . i think it is 100mzh but it might be 30

with the 3rd replication i noticed if the voltage goes to exactly 1.322 volts the leds get super bright . this is where they blowed last time i think . so i keep a start charge below that ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on November 29, 2012, 04:06:38 PM

I agree Nickz, my Super SS SSG Self Charger @ zero amps has the same effect as with the latest LS video, the cap on both side of the circuit is keeping the oscillation in the 5 filar coil at a certain time using a diode from an extra coil going to the magnet ring and down to the pos rail of source battery...
for the super joule ringer using analog voltmetrs after discharging with a dc fan , the battery steadily limb after .... the output of which is connected to collector - diode to a ferrite ring magnet attached to the body of the transformer, and from the ring magnet back to the source, positive battery . this set up are without caps and only the source battery and no solar panel attached...
2 yrs ago, I energized a slayer circuit and just placed the coil on top of a lead acid 12v battery.... same effect the v slowly climbs up.....
for now this circuit may lead us somewhere beyond our expectations ... happy experimenting totoalas :) ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 29, 2012, 04:40:00 PM

Update @@ My channel . I decided to play with the 3rd modded unit with all caps . And i hoked up a Nimh cell which is charged to 1.497 and declining standing Volts .. This video shows the circuit has in one hour gone full bright leds and charged way beyond any cell battery 1.822 and next video done a few mins later 1.869 . No recovery here because there was no charge on it higher than 1.5 at any time. !!!!!!!!!
post link in a few ..

http://youtu.be/lTFQ0tI71Fs (http://youtu.be/lTFQ0tI71Fs)

Damn UPDATE !! it is in a runnaway condition . voltage is shooting up over 4 volts now on a c cell . My god ! . i can't keep up with this in videos . My leds are going to blow . thay are near purple blue and they are white leds

making one more showing that , HOLLY SHHETTT last video 4.68 on a C CELL !! I am going to have to clip the super cap off . it is starting to puff out.i have got some kind of energy resonance that is way beyond mine or any understanding . . HOW CAN A BATTERY READ THAT HIGH > > I CHECKED IT WITH TWO GOOD TEST METERS NOT THE CHEAP ONES THAT GO UP IN VOLTS < THESE JUST STOP LIGHTING THE LCD"S AND GIVE AN INDICATION OF LOW BATTERY..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Hoppy on November 29, 2012, 04:45:37 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on November 29, 2012, 02:16:53 PM
Ncikz . Agree . When you make the circuit get a balance going first with the resistance in series with an led or in my case two leds in series and a 33kresistor . But also this resistance needs a balance of the capacitor in series with the diode . Aim for low light and indicator. from there the circuit is in a jitter state and any external touching will either make it brighter on the pos or dimmer on the neg. you can leave your meter leads on it if you like but i found that messes up the balance and makes it charge Less . So i keep them disconnected till reading ..this morning was a shocking result over 1.5 volts and the nicad was only setting ar 1.228 two days ago.Nicads don't charge that high but this one held it for a bit until the light got brighter and it lost balance. . i don't even know if a cap is needed yet . Might not need one .

Ok . I just checked the cold unit setting outside . Guess what . it is 1.659 across the nicad and cap .. not emf . not staticvolts . Usable energy .. Power from itself.Or from the vacuum of space itself . OR i have rediscovered power from the aether as Moray did by time consuming experimenting , I bet he had a cap sub and resistor box too :)

@ Gadgetmail,

That's a lot of resistance you are putting in series with the two LED's. I must have way more current driving my LED, so I will try reducing current.

Regards
Hoppy

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 29, 2012, 05:01:14 PM

read my last post hoppy . i am in a runaway condition .. .over 5 volts now.. m is later 5.38 volts . i am having to put 100k resistance on the leds now to keep them from blowing c battery feedingv caps . the supercap is puffing out . waiting for it to blow the top off.

i skipped the second video and just went to the runnaway .. Incredible . you guys have NO idea . I have NOTHING external on it . it is in a mad resonate stage and over charging the circuit . I told you something happens when 1.322 volts hits . it gets full bright and blows leds . I just have to keep raising the resistance on my leds before i look and they are gone .

Now 5.79 ... almost 6 volts on the cell reading from the c bat .. this is just 10 mins apart /

runaway vid
http://youtu.be/uGGF66DixGg

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: lasersaber on November 29, 2012, 05:16:45 PM

Sounds awesome gadget! :o I wish I was there with you right now. I look forward to trying your modifications. I think I will have to order some more parts to replicate it exactly.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 29, 2012, 05:23:38 PM

Ls almost 6 volts on a runaway circuit . c battery is way beyond my comfort zone .. the super is now puffed its breakaway top . !!! it was only rated 2.5 volts max

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: lasersaber on November 29, 2012, 05:30:48 PM

Set up a camera and video it, explosion and all!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 29, 2012, 05:47:16 PM

she fried .. melted the tiny #36 wire and appears to have blow the germanium .. :( But i know how to rebuild it :)

Dam got to 7 volts and could take no more.. .. i ran out of resistance on my resistor wheel .. it took out the leds too

This was an AWSOME Machine !!!. I have to do it again !!.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on November 29, 2012, 05:56:11 PM

I've seen something similar when a small cap like a 103 gets put into a HF circuit that is running along with a couple of 1n4148 diodes, like in an Av plug, but with a small value cap instead of the led. The voltage goes way up, but the current does not. Check your current readings, that may be what is happening.
Maybe you can add more load to the circuit so the leds don't blow. Like a flashlight multi led bulb with 5 or more leds. I'm lighting ten leds. It looks like the diodes can be replaced with an led, also, as leds are also one way diodes. The led in place of the (diode) lights both ways (polarity) when holding with my fingers.
Yes, the led turns a funny color before going bye bye. I see that too.
Sounds like you are having fun.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on November 29, 2012, 05:56:56 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on November 29, 2012, 05:47:16 PM
she fried .. melted the tiny #36 wire and appears to have blow the germanium .. :( But i know how to rebuild it :)

Dam got to 7 volts and could take no more.. ..

This was an AWSOME Machine !!!. I have to do it again !!.

@gadgetmall: may be you can build two replications. It would be more credible and also more instructive for yourself if each of the two devices runs up the voltage in its drive capacitor. I also would try to make a cleaner build (less clips and no loose wires).

And of course, other people can only replicate in case you provide a circuit and component specifications.

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 29, 2012, 06:08:28 PM

Quote from: conradelektro on November 29, 2012, 05:56:56 PM
@gadgetmall: may be you can build two replications. It would be more credible and also more instructive for yourself if each of the two devices runs up the voltage in its drive capacitor. I also would try to make a cleaner build (less clips and no loose wires).

And of course, other people can only replicate in case you provide a circuit and component specifications.

Greetings, Conrad

I did . I made three . in that last three days . the other two are running perfect and rising slow but steady . . you must have missed it . My last one was the one that ran over 7 volts off that configuration . the other two are over 1.9 volts and are more balanced and don;t use a germanium / darlington . I posted all that info in the last 5 pages.. i am on my forth one . HV E-core .. but now i want to rebuild the coolest circuit in the world again with the mini rod. won't take long to rewind it.

i got enough parts to build about 15 more.
I am thinking about cutting a goldmine torroid in half and winding that with the same #36 except this time use a bifialar litz on the primary.. . the runnaway occured when i wrapped the rest of my primary wire to 18 turns. ..
gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 29, 2012, 07:16:59 PM

Quote from: Lakes on November 29, 2012, 03:02:31 PM
Just a thought about non-contact measurement of this circuit.

Maybe you could have a photocell (connected to a scope)measuring the light out from the LED and it would also show the oscillation?

Use the LED side of an optoisolator like H11D1 for the led?

Just checking in, I haven't been able to do any work because I've been dealing with another problem---looks like FedEx has lost two boxes of a threebox shipment of my test equipment..... grrr... a Tek scope, a good power supply, and a bunch of other gear including a 750 dollar Shimpo optical tachometer.... missing, last seen last week in Ohio and Fort Worth.
One box did arrive safely and intact on Monday. I've been on the phone with FedEx for days, it seems.

Anyhow, great progress! I hope to spend some time on the circuit this evening.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Magluvin on November 29, 2012, 10:46:50 PM

Quote from: TinselKoala on November 29, 2012, 07:16:59 PM
Use the LED side of an optoisolator like H11D1 for the led?

Just checking in, I haven't been able to do any work because I've been dealing with another problem---looks like FedEx has lost two boxes of a threebox shipment of my test equipment..... grrr... a Tek scope, a good power supply, and a bunch of other gear including a 750 dollar Shimpo optical tachometer.... missing, last seen last week in Ohio and Fort Worth.
One box did arrive safely and intact on Monday. I've been on the phone with FedEx for days, it seems.

Anyhow, great progress! I hope to spend some time on the circuit this evening.

Dude, very weird. My friend at work was expecting a package yesterday. Fedex. Tracked it today, this package has been doing circles around Florida for days. City to city to town and back around again. And one of the stops during ring around the oranges, was here, then it went for another trip.

Maybe Fedex is being hacked. :o

Mags

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 30, 2012, 12:10:30 AM

Gadget:

Great job man! This is great! I am trying to follow along here but things appear to be moving fast. I look forward to reading your next results and seeing you videos. Best of luck to you.

Bill

PS It is good to be back here as a Moderator. Thanks to all.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: e2matrix on November 30, 2012, 01:01:50 AM

Congrats Gadgetmall!!! I don't really know what's going on yet but I see you are onto something cool. Just jumped in here after fighting a computer problem last couple days thanks to MS goons and a corrupted Deepfreeze program. TG for Linux. Figures just when all the fun starts my computer breaks - LOL .... but I got a couple dozen backup 'puters so no excuse to miss out here. On to reading what all the excitement is about...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: e2matrix on November 30, 2012, 02:28:02 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on November 29, 2012, 04:40:00 PM

Update @@ My channel . I decided to play with the 3rd modded unit with all caps . And i hoked up a Nimh cell which is charged to 1.497 and declining standing Volts .. This video shows the circuit has in one hour gone full bright leds and charged way beyond any cell battery 1.822 and next video done a few mins later 1.869 . No recovery here because there was no charge on it higher than 1.5 at any time. !!!!!!!!!
post link in a few ..

http://youtu.be/lTFQ0tI71Fs (http://youtu.be/lTFQ0tI71Fs)

Damn UPDATE !! it is in a runnaway condition . voltage is shooting up over 4 volts now on a c cell . My god ! . i can't keep up with this in videos . My leds are going to blow . thay are near purple blue and they are white leds

making one more showing that , HOLLY SHHETTT last video 4.68 on a C CELL !! I am going to have to clip the super cap off . it is starting to puff out.i have got some kind of energy resonance that is way beyond mine or any understanding . . HOW CAN A BATTERY READ THAT HIGH > > I CHECKED IT WITH TWO GOOD TEST METERS NOT THE CHEAP ONES THAT GO UP IN VOLTS < THESE JUST STOP LIGHTING THE LCD"S AND GIVE AN INDICATION OF LOW BATTERY..

Now that I caught up reading the last few pages I can really saw WOW!!!
Awesome work! Just don't run yourself ragged with all the excitement though ;)
I'll be trying this one out for sure.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: e2matrix on November 30, 2012, 02:40:55 AM

Quote from: Magluvin on November 29, 2012, 10:46:50 PM
Dude, very weird. My friend at work was expecting a package yesterday. Fedex. Tracked it today, this package has been doing circles around Florida for days. City to city to town and back around again. And one of the stops during ring around the oranges, was here, then it went for another trip.

Maybe Fedex is being hacked. :o

Mags

You might have missed the picture of the two Fedex big rig trailers in the mess of a 100 car pileup they had in Texas just recently. Maybe that's why TK's stuff and the other guys stuff is missing. Fedex is probably scrambling to replace stuff or sort out the mess...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 30, 2012, 04:03:28 AM

Quote from: e2matrix on November 30, 2012, 02:40:55 AM
You might have missed the picture of the two Fedex big rig trailers in the mess of a 100 car pileup they had in Texas just recently. Maybe that's why TK's stuff and the other guys stuff is missing. Fedex is probably scrambling to replace stuff or sort out the mess...

Oh, man, do you have a link for more information? According to what they told me, one of the missing boxes was last scanned in Ohio and the other one in Fort Worth.... so if that crash was in the last week it's certainly possible. But of course they didn't mention any crash to me on the phone.

Oh... man..... I just found the link. Thanksgiving Day. That certainly puts it in the right time frame..... My delivered box came on the Monday after TG weekend.... But the location of the crash is weird. Eastbound lane of I-10 east of Houston, about 300 miles East of me, so the trucks were moving away, I think, and FedEx did tell me that one of my boxes had been scanned in Fort Worth, which is 350 miles north of me and does make sense as en-route.... so who knows.
I feel badly for the people who were killed. The photos really look like it was a huge mess.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 30, 2012, 04:14:30 AM

Meanwhile... back in the DeepBunker..... OK, I built the circuit and could not get it to oscillate at all with a TIP3055 or 2n3055 in the Q2 position, no matter what transformer setup I tried. I finally got the thing oscillating well with that little choke I showed earlier: I wound about 300 turns of #30 on it, potted it in epoxy, then wound about 10 turns primary on top of that. I tried a bunch of different transistors in both locations. My favorite setup right now is to use a germanium 2n1304 for Q1 and a 2n2222 for Q2. The 2n2222 gives me the highest voltage spikes (I tried the germanium, a 2n2219a, and 2n3053 and TIP31A, all oscillate, and 3055s don't work for me).

I see the green LED on the output glowing and I see some very interesting interplay between the AA battery and the 2 Farad reservoir cap. I have seen the voltage increase... but nothing like what gadgetmall has achieved. I just started using a NiMH battery to see if there's any better result for me.
The system is really sensitive.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on November 30, 2012, 08:53:42 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lwm0r0bk8dM
Another variant ac dc current reducer

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: scratchrobot on November 30, 2012, 11:03:20 AM

Quote from: lasersaber on November 29, 2012, 05:30:48 PM
Set up a camera and video it, explosion and all!

Yes that would be nice ;D

Nice job on your variant Gadget! If I get the time I will try to replicate.
Maybe you can put a load over your battery to dump the excess energy :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on November 30, 2012, 11:17:57 AM

Using my best ferrite rod transformer from the 3.0 circuit, a TIP3055, and a 2n4017 transistors, and adding a 1n4148 diode from the secondary to the primary coils, and another 1n4148 diode with a cap, the other way around, I ran the circuit all night long. I tried different caps, they all made the light get brighter than just with the diode alone.
This morning the 1.5v D cell alkaline battery was reading 1/2 v, down from the one volt reading it was at when it started. This was a dead battery basically, as I wanted to see if it would self charge, but it did NOT.
This circuit is strong enough to blow the white led, if left on without the diodes, and cap. Even on a dead 1 volt battery. I also added in series with the led, a 10 led 4volt led bulb which was barely lighting, although the white led was bright. Maybe this is what caused the circuit to not be able self charge. Once the circuit is turned off, the voltage returned to 1 volt.
Anyway, so far I see no real self charging, yet. But, I'll make some more changes, and remove the bigger 10 led bulb from the system. This is still a very interesting circuit, and this was my first try.
More to come...

NickZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Hoppy on November 30, 2012, 12:13:31 PM

Quote from: NickZ on November 30, 2012, 11:17:57 AM
Using my best ferrite rod transformer from the 3.0 circuit, a TIP3055, and a 2n4017 transistors, and adding a 1n4148 diode from the secondary to the primary coils, and another 1n4148 diode with a cap, the other way around, I ran the circuit all night long. I tried different caps, they all made the light get brighter than just with the diode alone.
This morning the 1.5v D cell alkaline battery was reading 1/2 v, down from the one volt reading it was at when it started. This was a dead battery basically, as I wanted to see if it would self charge, but it did NOT.
This circuit is strong enough to blow the white led, if left on without the diodes, and cap. Even on a dead 1 volt battery. I also added in series with the led, a 10 led 4volt led bulb which was barely lighting, although the white led was bright. Maybe this is what caused the circuit to not be able self charge. Once the circuit is turned off, the voltage returned to 1 volt.
Anyway, so far I see no real self charging, yet. But, I'll make some more changes, and remove the bigger 10 led bulb from the system. This is still a very interesting circuit, and this was my first try.
More to come...

NickZ

The IN4148 is a silicon diode, not germanium as gadget uses. Maybe this would make the difference.

Hoppy

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on November 30, 2012, 12:57:48 PM

Hoppy:
That may be, but that is what I have at the moment, and, I'm far from a electronics part store.
I'll check into it, as you might be right, although Minoly used a 914 diode and got his circuit charging to slightly higher voltages, and the 4148 is similar, but not the same.
This circuit does work very well, specially without the diodes, or even with them, but it still needs some tuning, and I'm still working on it. This was the first try at it, and it ran all night, and when disconnected went back to the original 1. volt levels on the dead D cell battery. All very interesting.
If diodes are given too high a voltage they will not work and will conduct both ways, so that is why I lowered the input to 1. volt, and also to avoid blowing any of the small leds. I'l try other led bulbs, soon.
Thanks for the advice,
Nick

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on November 30, 2012, 01:12:05 PM

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/163/dsc05601r.jpg/

Neuground Lighting ac dc Combo Sketch

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 30, 2012, 01:43:19 PM

Nickz. it possible is 3 of 4 things not right ;) First . you cannot hook up Leds directly to the secondary . they need resistance and this is tuning /balance point , second i tried all the diodes i could find and only one KIND worked . out of 50each of 2 types of germaniums only one kind of these work . I think it is 1n34a . The 3rd thing is the disk caps in series with the second diode also is a tuning/balance point , One cap may not work so parallel them to get the balance . There will be a point where you see little light and the circuit is sensitive as hell to a touch on the pos lead that makes it brighter . Also a touch on the Neg lead will make it dimmer . once you hit that spot which was not hard at all for me on now 4 different units you can see it charges up . My first unit hit 2.202 volts today .. this was just a cold nicad days ago .. i dunno . .
If you see the the voltage go below your start volts more than 2 hundreths while running it it is wrong.
correction that is 2 1000ths for instance start cold measure 1.222 _ circuit running 1.220 . that is where you need to be.

Lasersaber has his way better as far as the last number on the meter goes when running . All he has to do it add the stuff and tune that disk cap as his bulb already has the necessary resistance in it like my 220 bulb..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: e2matrix on November 30, 2012, 01:44:14 PM

SORRY OF OFF TOPIC...

Quote from: TinselKoala on November 30, 2012, 04:03:28 AM

Oh, man, do you have a link for more information? According to what they told me, one of the missing boxes was last scanned in Ohio and the other one in Fort Worth.... so if that crash was in the last week it's certainly possible. But of course they didn't mention any crash to me on the phone.

Oh... man..... I just found the link. Thanksgiving Day. That certainly puts it in the right time frame..... My delivered box came on the Monday after TG weekend.... But the location of the crash is weird. Eastbound lane of I-10 east of Houston, about 300 miles East of me, so the trucks were moving away, I think, and FedEx did tell me that one of my boxes had been scanned in Fort Worth, which is 350 miles north of me and does make sense as en-route.... so who knows.
I feel badly for the people who were killed. The photos really look like it was a huge mess.

Sorry no link but it was on CNN.com and I clearly saw 2 Fedex trailers in a pic and commented when I saw that about how in my experience Fedex drivers seem to be less safe than UPS and some others. I think they are under more pressure to get to their destinations than some other company drivers. Not sure about Fedex but I've seen USPS parcels get routed a long way off course at times. Hopefully it gets there for you eventually.
JUST FOUND ONE OF THE PICS: http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/22/us/texas-highway-pileup/index.html?iref=allsearch (http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/22/us/texas-highway-pileup/index.html?iref=allsearch)
That's not the same pic I saw originally but you can clearly see the 2 Fedex trailers there. And in case that page disappears before you get the chance here's a screen capture...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 30, 2012, 01:49:05 PM

Hi E2 good to see you . I saw in my small town post office while i was there the fex ex man was dumping many many large bags full of packages to the post office to help them out :) So Fedex is using USPS right now because they are swamped .. .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on November 30, 2012, 01:52:39 PM

Gadget:
Ok, thanks for the info.
I removed the 10 led bulb, and added resistance to a single led to avoid it blowing. I'm looking into the diode(s). I feel that any resistance on the led is just waisting energy, though. The diode on the primary will not light the tuning led without the cap, most any cap works with the diode to brightly light the led, but I'm trying to tune the circuit now.
NZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 30, 2012, 02:10:43 PM

NickZ . yes that is what i also see . the second diode will not lite a load without a cap . BUT once it is lit that cap will need to be adjusted by paralleling caps . i saw a point with the cap box . that even the cap that makes it dim is not necessarily the right balance . i can see sometimes on the others that i am messing with sometime the wrong cap there can make it discharge faster than without any diode there at all . I had to gang three 76pf together the first one . two wouldn't work 4 wouldn't work but three would make it charge .. .So i am using that method to replace the cap box when i find to correct balance.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on November 30, 2012, 05:53:18 PM

Ok, got that. My battery and cap now are showing 0 volts. You're right about the wrong cap value can discharge the battery and input cap. Now I know why. I'm using the .0001 (102) capacitor, and 1n4148 diodes.
So, now I've got 0 volts input, BUT, the led indicator light is still on, ferrite rod is still ringing.
Plengo is right,
Monkey Science.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 30, 2012, 07:02:35 PM

Plengo knows his stuff . so does Fausto . You all see a little of what i am seeing . I am not using an led as a diode but i did put one across a diode and it does light however it eats the charging so i removed it on the second one i made. Also the circuit will oscillate all but it self and i believe this is purely from the diodes and wire ,maybe picking up one of the millions of radio and microwaves and making Volts or ............

Even if the led is only slightly lit on the LOAD when ran but 1.2 volts you know it is oscillating .

Been working on another circuit using a fuji transformer and i cannot get this one to charge . It works good but can't get a balance as everything is one wire light . So Bad fuji for crossover no good..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 30, 2012, 07:10:20 PM

Y'all wouldn't be pulling this old Koala's leg, now would you?..... ;D

Just kidding. I'm not getting a recharge (yet?) but I'm getting all the other behaviour you are describing, so maybe I need to try the other type of Ge diodes (I too have 1n34a and 1n60) and vary the cap value. I have some pF range trimmers around here somewhere I think.... what I'd like to use is one or two of these 400 pF strontium titanate 30kV doorknobs I've got strewn about all over the place....

Meanwhile, I disconnected everything at 1043 this morning, and have been running along since then, making a nice green glow. The single AA cell is connected to the 2F cap and at 1043 the voltage had just dropped to 1.342 V on the Simpson DMM.
At 1401 it was 1.329 V and now at 1806 it is 1.323 V, a drop of 19 mV in a span of 7hr23min or about 0.7 microvolts per second. If I kept all the decimals in the right place.

This is astounding to me. I have got to find those trimcaps. I have one in front of me but it's a HV kind and its range is about 2-20 pF.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 30, 2012, 07:14:19 PM

Quote from: e2matrix on November 30, 2012, 01:44:14 PM
SORRY OF OFF TOPIC...Sorry no link but it was on CNN.com and I clearly saw 2 Fedex trailers in a pic and commented when I saw that about how in my experience Fedex drivers seem to be less safe than UPS and some others. I think they are under more pressure to get to their destinations than some other company drivers. Not sure about Fedex but I've seen USPS parcels get routed a long way off course at times. Hopefully it gets there for you eventually.
JUST FOUND ONE OF THE PICS: http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/22/us/texas-highway-pileup/index.html?iref=allsearch (http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/22/us/texas-highway-pileup/index.html?iref=allsearch)
That's not the same pic I saw originally but you can clearly see the 2 Fedex trailers there. And in case that page disappears before you get the chance here's a screen capture...

FedEx is having a rough time, they lost a small cargo plane and pilot Thanksgiving day too, and google returns so many hits for "fedex crash" that it isn't even funny.... it's scary.
In the above crash the aerial views show the FedEx trucks at or near the front of the mess. I wonder if it was one of them that ran over the SUV that started the whole thing.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on November 30, 2012, 08:04:37 PM

Although my D cell voltage was still at 0 volts, and the indicator led still dimly lighting, once the second diode and cap were disconnected from the circuit, the voltage goes back up to over 1 volt again, and ferrite bead core is ringing again, and single led indicator is going stronger.
So, the second diode/cap version did not work for me, as it just totally drained the input battery/cap.
So, I'm back to original LS cross over with just the single diode from secondary feeding back to primary as before.
Any ideas are welcome.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on November 30, 2012, 08:21:09 PM

Tk . That is bad news . They are over worked ..

NickZ too much voltage drop on your diodes. need germaniums . anywho Im still in it . .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on December 01, 2012, 12:21:16 AM

As most of us can't find or obtain those illusive little germanium diodes, I wish you the best. We still have not even scratched the surface on this circuit. I have a feeling that we'll figure it out, one way or another though. Plengo, Lynxsteam, as well as myself have all seen the batteries get drained, to less than nothing, then somehow "bounce back". My led indicator is still on, even after the battery was reading 0 volts, and came back to 1.1 volts. Now, over 24 hours later, it's still running...
There is little useable output from this circuit, from what I've seen so far. But, hopefully that will change... I've got the water hose ready, just in case it tries to runaway. Ha!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 01, 2012, 12:36:52 AM

Germanium diodes sources:

http://www.surplus-electronics-sales.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=10&products_id=766

http://www.surplus-electronics-sales.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=10&products_id=898

http://www.surplus-electronics-sales.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=10&products_id=916

http://www.jpmsupply.com/servlet/the-439/1N34-A-Germanium-Diode/Detail?gclid=CMb1kpW--LMCFQsGnQodjyEAMg

I bought a bunch of these diodes a few years ago.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 01, 2012, 12:41:32 AM

Germanium transistors:

http://www.germaniumtransistors.com/servlet/StoreFront

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SALE-MP25B-Russian-Germanium-Transistors-PNP-100pcs-/130729209680

http://www.transparentsound.com/transistors/vintage-transistors/sale-wanted/sale-wanted.htm

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on December 01, 2012, 12:50:58 AM

Quote from: NickZ on December 01, 2012, 12:21:16 AM
As most of us can't find or obtain those illusive little germanium diodes, I wish you the best. We still have not even scratched the surface on this circuit. I have a feeling that we'll figure it out, one way or another though. Plengo, Lynxsteam,

nick,
as for the germanium diodes.. i have seen the bat46 out perform the germanium diodes in certain crystal radio apps.. may not be the case in this curcuit..
but it will be what i try .. when i build this curcuit soon..
as i smoked the rest of my 1n60's and 1n270's as i was playing with a device that had a em pulse that fried all things on my metal table in my foxhole.. it also took out my cfl bulbs , electronic floru lights.. near to it.. so i am trying to restock all that i lost..
i wasted over 200 1n60 diode trying to cook them.. and only got 4 of what i needed.. nuttin but money wasted .. right??

i'll be building this curcuit soon..

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on December 01, 2012, 01:18:58 AM

Robbie:
I knew that the mention of fresh baked diodes would bring you out of your fox hole, or current hide out. Good to hear that you're going to take a whack at this.
The company above, that the Pirate mentions does have the 1N34A, and at 50 cents each.
Not exactly next door to me, though.
There is something special about this Cross Over circuit, it'sreally a feed back circuit. So I'm glad that you're in the line up. As we've been talking about the self runner, it's about time we did some about it.

My led light indicator on the circuit is still on, now past midnight, voltage holding, but not going up.
Nick

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on December 01, 2012, 06:07:41 AM

Ah.... I have actually had a voltage rise, or at least a stopped drop. I've been running continuously since the video posting, and as I noted before, at 1800 yesterday evening I was down to 1.323 volts. Now it has climbed to 1.324 volts, eleven hours later at 0500. Still the same 5mm green LED glowing as shown in the video, I haven't touched it except to disconnect the scope and meter and reconnect meter for readings.

But I want SuperCharging like gadgetmall!! :-[

Meanwhile I shot a video showing a practical application: Use of the basic JT as a transistor checker circuit. Nothing earthshaking, I just use the basic testbed to check a bunch of different NPN transistors like 2n3055, mje3055, tip31, 2n2369a, MPSA18, 2n3053. It's still uploading and I am trying a different codec so I don't know how it came out.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: synchro1 on December 01, 2012, 09:39:16 AM

@Gadgetmall,

Your miniature coil wraped "Hi Perm" ferrite core resting on the circular magnet functions like a "Kunel" type linear magnet generator. I believe you can regulate the output by seperating the generator from the magnet a little to avoid frying your componants. A vise like screw spacer might help.

The Darlington transistor and germanium diodes together with your tiny "Kunel" type generator have set a new high water mark in the Free Energy field. Your hands on skills are uncanny. Thanks for leading us.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 01, 2012, 09:53:54 AM

yea i really don't know what to say .

If it wasn't for the circuit that fried i would think they are just too high a frequency for meters . But the think is i made two that don't charge . they discharge . So i can see this can be rather tricky to get working . The transistors have a lot to do with it .
I would choose a transistor with a high frequency for the primary transistor and a high gain transistor for the secondary one.

I need a long break and i promised we were putting up the tree today so i will check in and out guys later on .

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on December 01, 2012, 11:44:03 AM

It's almost noon here, the white led indicator light is still on, voltage on the circuit is 1/10 of a volt.
It's almost 12 hours later, so I think that I'm seeing what LS was talking about. That when the voltage gets to a certain point, the light will go on for a long, long, long, time. But, there is no real useable light output at that level, with the voltage reading 1/10 of a volt. If I turn off the switch, it goes to 0.65 volt in 2 minutes, and to 1.1 volt, or so, in 5 minutes, and stays there if left off. So, I think that it may be the capacitor/battery combo "bounce back" or self re-charging electronegative effect. Or???
So, the second diode/cap is NOT what causes the circuit to drop to almost nothing. It then can come back on its own to about 1 volt, or so, the indicator light gets bright, and core starts singing again.
I've got the hose ready, just in case.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: synchro1 on December 01, 2012, 04:15:45 PM

@Nickz,

Do you have a permanent magnet attached directly to, or in adjancency to your ferrite coil core?

@ Gadgetmall,

A tiny coil of a few wraps around a thin non magnetic disk washer at the end of the ferrite core, wraped counter wound around it, and opposite to the attached permanent disk magnet pole. A potentiomter can adjust the counter magnetic coil like a "FLUXRESISTOR" and control output. Kunel invented and patented this and I posted part above.

The patent adds that the control field augments the permanent magnet field to help magnatize the ferrite core and ampliy the power when you start to turn it on by turning the control coil off.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on December 01, 2012, 05:35:18 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eulKpWNeoUI
http://www.youtube.com/my_videos?pi=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qd2oZG0Q3Ic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEO9L0guZp8
Super J O U le Ringer Charging back effect
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKy7Bs_gNlw
Super SS SSG Charging back source
schematic in the ef joule thierf thread
happy experimenting
totoalas

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on December 01, 2012, 07:57:22 PM

I just got to get me some of them magic crococlipleads!

Meanwhile... it's now almost 1900, and I am still sitting at 1.322 Volts...... that is a decrease of one millivolt in 25 hours.... I've seen it go down to 1.318 volts then come up a bit, maybe a loose connection to the voltmeter.... early this morning I took the green LED off and put a white LED with a 22R series resistor, put the LED in a ping-pong ball as a diffuser, it's glowing eerily .... other than that I've made no changes.

ETA: My FedEx boxes came through today! Much worse for wear, paperwork missing, but the Tex 2213 scope and the Topward dual power supply are intact and working.... whew. TriField meter ditto. I don't know if there was anything else packed because the inventory lists are missing.... I hope the Shimpo got left out of the shipment somehow and is still safely at the other undisclosed location, safe and cold.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on December 02, 2012, 01:32:51 AM

Oh come on. Now it's midnight 30, and the voltage is creeping up again. It dipped to 1.321 but now it's 1.322 with the last "2" trying to flicker over to "3" and stay there. This time it's not due to any loose or intermittent connection. The thing is just sitting there, glowing eerily, running on nothing. Well..... at least the charge isn't depleting.
Where is the "nothing" coming from? Now that my boxes have arrived and I have my trusty TriField Meter.... I can tell that there is a lot of magnetic field activity around and near my workbench. I have power lines all over the place, I have power supplies and scopes running (two now, whooopie), but I don't have the maze of clipleads that could be picking up power, just the compact build with the tiny coil with two magnets. And this house has a metal roof, and it is in a "radio dead" zone, the reception of both AM, FM and VHF too is terrible in this block.
I guess it's time for a field trip.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: synchro1 on December 02, 2012, 04:29:52 AM

@Tinelkoala,

That circuit has to be tuned close to perfection to balance the charge so long. Do you use a permanent magnet anywhere in the circuit?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on December 02, 2012, 08:47:26 AM

@synchro: Yes, the little choke coil that I wound with the extra windings has a magnet on each end of the ferrite spool making its core. It came out of the TV like that. I have two other similar coils from TV sets that also came with magnets installed.
The voltage is showing 1.319 right now, at 0745.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: synchro1 on December 02, 2012, 09:16:55 AM

@TK,

I wound some tiny spiral coils that peformed the magnet blocking experiments very well. I wonder if a pair of "Variable Flux Resistor" spiral coils might be of help fitted in between the magnets and the ferrite core. A 6 volt JonnyDavro buzzer to transistor base and pot is a cheap PWM for this tiny coil. Additioal disk magnets on each end would allow one to adjust the ferrite Gauss to the current flux level or a bit to each side to turn the power up and down.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on December 02, 2012, 05:46:58 PM

Yes, varying core saturation can produce many interesting effects. The MEG is an electronic system based on this idea and the eOrbo and ssOrbo of Steorn are also dependent on varying core saturation, in a mechanical and an electronic implementation respectively. The "Mag-amp" or magnetic amplifier has been around for a long time.
I've got that long toroidal ferrite "bead" that I used in the toroid winding demo video wound with some toroidal wraps, then I put a circumferential wrapping around the outside. It is very interesting to monitor this coil on the scope while the other wraps are doing the "JT thing" in a Joule Thief.
I just put into operation my current-limiting PS, and now I'll be able to see what happens to the JT when I energize this circumferential coil which will change the permeabilty/saturation level of the core.

The "thing" is now, at 1645, back up to 1.320 V from an earlier low about two hours ago of 1.318 V. The only thing that has changed is that I've turned the window air conditioner on to reduce the mugginess in the DeepBunker. Could my instruments and/or this circuit be that sensitive to temperature and humidity?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: e2matrix on December 02, 2012, 07:06:54 PM

Here is a point to consider when looking at very small voltage increases in this circuit. I'm not sure if this applies to 5mm type LED's but I know that the surface mount type higher wattage LED's like 1 watt and up will create a voltage and act like a solar cell when exposed to a light source - Sun or even room light could create a small charging effect from the LED. That would not account for the effect Gadgetmall had and especially not the runaway one but it might account for some other small voltage increases in the circuit. I discovered this when I had an LED flashlight that would not turn on if it's pointed at the Sun (a design booboo by the mfgr.).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on December 02, 2012, 08:40:32 PM

I do use a permanent magnet next to or under my various Ringer's transformer coil. It does change the circuits frequency, but I don't see much difference in the actual voltage output, or bulb brightness. You can hear how the frequency is raised or lowered in pitch. I go by the volume level of the ringers' tone, not the higher or lower pitch, but the volume level increase of the ringing. The more noise it makes, the higher the output. There probably are sweet spots, though.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tysb3 on December 03, 2012, 01:04:26 AM

hi TK,
its maybe help for you: " Just completed my first experiment. What I found: battery voltage much depends on the temperature."

http://www.overunity.com/8334/second-stage-joule-thief-circuits/msg237123/#msg237123

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on December 03, 2012, 02:31:44 AM

@tysb3That is excellent work! Real data carefully gathered and properly presented. I am so pleased with you.... that I am not even embarrassed that we seem to be covering old ground again. It looks like there was a lot of good work done in that thread that I have been completely missing.
I also am amazed by the pulsetrain graph right after your temperature plot. That is exactly what I saw when my LSJT first began to oscillate! It would make groups of pulses just like that, same appearance and timing and intervals. This effect didn't last for me, though and now the circuit is making continuous oscillations. I don't understand what I did to make it do the groups like you show.
Your temperature graph seems to reflect what I'm seeing. There is a slow overall decline, with periods of steady voltage and some periods of slight climbing. I haven't been keeping good records but my impression is also that warmer temperatures make the voltage go up a bit.
Again... thank you so much for posting the link to your earlier work. That is the way to do it!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Billxx on December 03, 2012, 09:53:45 AM

Just an observation, but, I think the use of a magnet in the circuit near the transformer offers an opportunity to harvest energy. Gadgetmall's discovery of being able to self charge his battery may be because of the position of his washer magnet in relation to his transformer. The runaway condition he experienced may be because once you start the "generator" effect, it could be causing a compounding effect, and really no way to stop it without complete disconnection. He might or might not be able to replicate that condition again because he may not be able to position his magnet-transformer relation exactly. It's really a cool discovery he made, though. :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 04, 2012, 07:04:29 PM

Hi guys . I have no idea why some work one day and not the next . Very strange circuit . I read about the results from temperature . Than don't make any sense to me as they are inside and the same temperature day or night.One thing i know that changes at night verse the day besides outdoor temperature in the ionosphere and it's ability to carry radio waves better at night due to no noise from the suns electrons. I have noticed just the oppisite from Tsby3 .

Also i am wondering if solar flares were acting up as several nights ago i saw some auroras in a bluish color . We rarely get them in the east but i have caught them lighting the skys here now and then.. Has anyone seen the new 3D images of the sun from the Nasa Stereo satellites . Simply Fantastic on my 3D tv . They show exact images in depth and even the rays and particles penetrating our atmosphere and hitting objects and b ringing down Grids and stuff . Unreal power lately as our sun spits at us.

I could be that i have fine tuned to a stations frequency that blasts at night time but still remains in the day. the only other explanation is there is some kind of energy that can be tapped with the proper coil and frequency .

I hate it when i see something that is so fantastic and i can;t do it again. Yes i have tried rewinding that little ferrite rod with the same wire and used one of the same germaniums in the same spot on that board and the best i can do is hold a steady voltage for a few days then that ones slowly fades .

i do have two there still running thought but not a wire melting led blowing transistor frying circuit . So i have build another board to test different coils and transistors more easily and can post on those.
In the meantime guys there is still lots to learn from just this one little circuit . I am also tinkering with several transistors in a push pull for the secondary stages that will feed that base of the Q1 primary ..

I am heading to the surplus yard tomorrow looking for that unusually military piece of something i can use do looking forward to that . Also almost finished with Soln1+ and need to sell it so i probably will make a short demo of it .

BTW , forgot to mention that this got dang circuit took out the sensor circuit in me Weller soldering station(24v) .the pencil looks like a piece of hot iron a blacksmith could pound into a horseshoe now. So WARNING . don't use your good temperature controlled soldering station on the crossover circuit when it's live . The stray emf creeps right thru to your mains and takes out anything between it .

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on December 04, 2012, 09:32:50 PM

Hmmm.... that last bit is kind of scary, I use my Solomon temperature-controlled iron on it live sometimes..... have to be more careful I guess, I can't afford to blow that iron for sure.

Am I reading right, gadgetmall, that you've not been able to recapture that great supercharging effect yet? That's a bummer... I really want mine to do that for a while, too!
I switched to a NiMH AA cell and it started at 1.320 volts and went down in an hour to about 1.295 and now has seemed stable there for some hours.... I hope you saw the video where I use a variable cap for the 100pF and show its effect on the waveform... .got any ideas which way I should tune, I mean what kind of waveshape I might want? I think by adding another 200 or 300 pF I can even extend the effect I showed on the waveform further, bringing up the voltage (less negative) of the "level" portion after the spike and before the little ringdown, and making the frequency lower. But is this the direction I want to go? By using the minimum capacitance of my trimmer, about 10 pF, that "table" gets lower in voltage (more negative) and the frequency increases. But the current trace hump seems to remain pretty much the same, although the average current will go down as the frequency decreases. I dunno, still running it on the NiMh.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 04, 2012, 10:24:58 PM

OK, this might be stupid and not relevant but, have you guys considered using a super cap in place of the source battery? The reason I ask is because of what I learned a while back while working on projects here on OU.

Most, if not all, JT type circuits output some really nice spikes, some of which are hard to see on a scope unless you really play around with it. These little flashes are, I believe, a good source of energy that a battery just seems to ignore but a supercap captures and stores it for later use as real energy.

It is hard for me to explain but, this is the simple reason that my earth battery, which on the meter or scope, puts out just under 2 volts can charge a 2.7 volt boostcap fully. It is all of those nice high spikes that get saved by the cap.

Anyway, this is my explanation for it and possibly, getting rid of the batteries all together might just make the difference in these circuits. If I am way off base here then just carry on and keep up the great work being done here.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 05, 2012, 12:28:54 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on December 04, 2012, 07:04:29 PM

I hate it when i see something that is so fantastic and i can;t do it again.

When working with RF frequecy circuits it is necessary to remember that the leads are also components. The capacitance between a few inches of two wires can look like a short at RF. So the connection wires need to be duplicated as well as the components in order to get the same results.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on December 05, 2012, 09:29:35 AM

@Bill: my build of this circuit uses 2 each 1 F, 5.5 V caps in parallel with the battery, which can be switched out so that the circuit runs on the caps alone. I just installed another one for a test, so that's 3 Farads of capacity.

@xee2: It's the clipleads, then ... I knew it all along.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: lasersaber on December 05, 2012, 09:55:25 AM

Three Farads! Wow that should give you some very long run times. Did you see this video? : http://youtu.be/SdXAjT2QPiQ (http://youtu.be/SdXAjT2QPiQ) That light ran all day long and was still going after I got home from work. That was on a 1 F capacitor. Notice that at the start of the video the voltage is at 11.02v and later at 11.03v.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on December 05, 2012, 06:07:12 PM

Quote from: lasersaber on December 05, 2012, 09:55:25 AM
Three Farads! Wow that should give you some very long run times. Did you see this video? : http://youtu.be/SdXAjT2QPiQ (http://youtu.be/SdXAjT2QPiQ) That light ran all day long and was still going after I got home from work. That was on a 1 F capacitor. Notice that at the start of the video the voltage is at 11.02v and later at 11.03v.

Not so long... I am only charging them to 1.3 volts, and they are old technology caps, not like the small 10F supercaps that LTseung is using.

Energy on a cap is proportional to the square of the voltage. So you are charging your 1 F cap to 11 volts or so.... your stored energy is then
E = (1F)(11V)²/2 = a bit over 60 Joules.
In my case,
E = (3F)(1.3V)²/2 = about 2.5 Joules.

I am not working with input voltages above that supplied by a single AA or AAA alkaline battery, sometimes two depleted ones in series, and lately I am using NiMH batteries that are about 1.3 V when fully charged.

Your results are remarkable. Unfortunately I just don't have the funds to reproduce them at the scale you are doing. Keep up the good work and thanks for the ideas!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on December 06, 2012, 02:16:27 AM

TK, do you think a 100F double cap like this one would help with your experiments?

http://www.hifisoundconnection.com/Lanzar-VCAP10000-Vector-100-Farad-16-Volt-Hybrid-Double-Capacitor-VCAP10000

I get my main job back at the courthouse on July 1st and get a rather handsome paycheck, I can try and get one for your lab if you need it?

Jerry

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tak22 on December 06, 2012, 03:02:02 PM

Robin Hood and the Joule Thief, Raiding the Rubbish to Help the Poor

http://zabaleen.blogspot.de/2012/12/robin-hood-and-joule-thief-raiding.html (http://zabaleen.blogspot.de/2012/12/robin-hood-and-joule-thief-raiding.html)

QuoteI was experimenting with aluminum garbage and a solution of lye made from wood ash from the Sherpa's fire (Potassium Hydroxide, used to make soap in the old days) to create hydrogen (a chemical reaction I knew about and used to show my students dating from when I taught Chemistry at Marlborough High School in 1989!). Hooking a voltmeter up to the reactants to see what was going on I observed a voltage during the reaction of between 0.5 V and 0.9 volt. So I lowered my concentration of lye to keep the hydrogen bubbling to a minimum and hooked everything up to a Joule Thief.

The reaction was astonishing -- I was able to light the LED to full brightness, just from one coke can tab and a piece of stainless steel. I had, in fact, created an aluminum oxide battery. And I found that I could light not just one LED from this simple procedure, but 5, all super bright!

This meant that no matter I went in the world, as long as I had some aluminum can tabs in my pocket and could gather some hardwood or fruitwood ash from a fire and had my joule thief, I could run a flashlight indefinitely, never needing to worry about batteries again! Each aluminum can tab lasted me up to 6 or 8 hours before needing to be replaced.

tak

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on December 06, 2012, 03:40:00 PM

My cross over circuit is now on the 6 day, perpetual light. Voltage on the D cell battery is 0 to .025 volts, led indicator is bright.
NickZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 06, 2012, 07:32:31 PM

Hi Guys . There you go nickZ nice report .

I have two still running for what now ,mm almost 2 weeks or so .
I have rebuilt the monster circuit using the darlington germanium and the coil but the turns must not be the same for some reason it simple won't go up in voltage . I think the coil has everything to do with this circuit .i should count windings more often and when i don't count them is when i get Crazy wild circuits that are amazing but without counting it is like playing the lottery.

I made a test bed because the other factor here is amplification and frequency of our transistors . I am going with the best power transistor i have right now but i have thousands of smaller transistors and fets so i am looking for that perfect input transistor we use on the secondary . Thus this test bed to test various things for the crossover .

nice results lynx and tk and all the others playing with these circuits .

If you love electricity amplification in it's strangest form this is the circuit to be on .

Almost time for some Christmas Tree Jt pics . I will post some and I bet bill will also .

gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on December 06, 2012, 07:39:05 PM

Hi folks, Hi nick, sounds like your getting good results with that crossover, nice, will have to try that circuit soon.
Not sure if you saw the post at other forum in simple inverter thread, though it seems by adding a 4.7 nanofarad 1200 volt capacitor from a gutted cfl across 2kohm base resistor, like lasers super joule ringer, has placed the circuit in a highly efficient oscillation mode or close to resonance.
It is the simple joule thief circuit with that capacitor added.
A 3.3 nanofarad capacitor does not oscillate like the 4.7 nanofarad and up to a certain capacitance, the great light output falls off again and current draw goes up.
Also of high value, is the fact that the transistor is ambient to slightly warm, whereas, if the capacitor is removed and the base resistor adjusted to replicate the same brightness, the amp draw goes up and the transistor/heat sink gets hot.
Hope this may be of value to others.
Here is link to forum thread and a youtube video link.
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/12438-simple-inverter-3.html#post217535 (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/12438-simple-inverter-3.html#post217535)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmAaHBO05AE&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmAaHBO05AE&feature=youtu.be)
peace love light
tyson ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 06, 2012, 10:06:50 PM

http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G19221 (http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G19221)

Antique Sylvania Crystal Diode

Germanium
Sylvania crystal diode germanium type 1N450 in an antique glass case. New very old stock.

$1 US for 2 diodes.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on December 07, 2012, 12:23:08 AM

Quote from: onthecuttingedge2005 on December 06, 2012, 02:16:27 AM
TK, do you think a 100F double cap like this one would help with your experiments?

http://www.hifisoundconnection.com/Lanzar-VCAP10000-Vector-100-Farad-16-Volt-Hybrid-Double-Capacitor-VCAP10000 (http://www.hifisoundconnection.com/Lanzar-VCAP10000-Vector-100-Farad-16-Volt-Hybrid-Double-Capacitor-VCAP10000)

I get my main job back at the courthouse on July 1st and get a rather handsome paycheck, I can try and get one for your lab if you need it?

Jerry

OMG that is some piece of kit! No... thanks for offering but I wouldn't be able to use that much.... I think it's more for super bass in car stereos or something, coilguns or tazers.....
But thanks so much anyway, I appreciate the offer .... or are you just pulling my leg.... :D

(I might accept a donation of a couple of those 10F caps that Lawrence is using, they are much cheaper and would be much more useful to me...)
:P

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on December 07, 2012, 12:41:58 AM

No, not pulling any legs, I'll try to remember to get you some in July.

just log the exact specifications of the capacitor you need so I can keep track of what I need to get.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 07, 2012, 01:46:46 AM

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/ESHSR-0010C0-002R7/589-1002-ND/946802 (http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/ESHSR-0010C0-002R7/589-1002-ND/946802)

TK:

These are the ones that I use. I can send you some if you would like.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: bs2012 on December 07, 2012, 04:49:27 AM

Recently I am playing around with joule thief and found some interesting behaviour with jt.

Referring to the attach basic jt circuit, most people said that the base coil (green wire) turn on the transistor to allow current flow in the collector coil (red wire). Yet I found a way to start jt with base coil open. The led would be very deem and the drain from battery is very low, around 1 - 2 mA. To do this, you need to have 13 times more turns in base coil than the collector coil. I have some toroids even need 20 times to have this work. Fewer turns in collector coil can sometimes work but you need to kick start the jt first. While the led is on, disconnect the base coil from the battery and the led still light deemly.

Don't be disappointed with the deem light with this setup. Just disconnect the led with the emitter leg of the transistor and then jam this open leg with the open wire of the base coil. The led would be super bright. Even brighter than with any of the jt I have! However the battery drain is about 30% higher than the jt, measured at about 120 mA. With some tuning, it could be reduced to around 70mA.

I am not sure if this hack is better than original jt. Please replicate and tell me.

>>Moderator: Did fix the scaling of the images.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on December 07, 2012, 09:44:10 AM

@bs2012: there seems to be something wrong with your image files. They don't display inline, and they don't open as JPGs when I download them, not even as .bmps ......
Did you make the images in some program as some other file format, then just change the extension to .jpg so they would upload? That doesn't work.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: bs2012 on December 07, 2012, 11:25:33 AM

Quote from: TinselKoala on December 07, 2012, 09:44:10 AM
@bs2012: there seems to be something wrong with your image files. They don't display inline, and they don't open as JPGs when I download them, not even as .bmps ......
Did you make the images in some program as some other file format, then just change the extension to .jpg so they would upload? That doesn't work.

Finally the pictures could be displayed, though the sizing seems terrible. :P

Please help to verify my findings...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on December 07, 2012, 12:00:10 PM

Quote from: bs2012 on December 07, 2012, 11:25:33 AM
Finally the pictures could be displayed, though the sizing seems terrible. :P

Please help to verify my findings...

bs2012,

I did fix the scaling of your JT drawings, thanks for the post and welcome to the forum. :-)

Please go here: http://www.irfanview.com/

and download the irFanView program. In that program you can scale your drawings. So if you make a drawing
in say, Windows paint, then you can scale the drawing in irFanView and convert the drawing to gif or jpg before
upload to the forum.

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: evolvingape on December 07, 2012, 12:35:45 PM

Download Apache OpenOffice:

http://www.openoffice.org/

Make your drawing with the easy to use drawing program.

Save the drawing as PDF using the little pdf button in the top bar, to your desktop, or wherever is easy to find for you.

Convert the image from PDF to JPEG using PictureResize:

http://www.pictureresize.org/online-images-converter.html

Resize image from JPEG to PNG using ShrinkPictures:

http://www.shrinkpictures.com/resize.php

Set quality to best, experiment with best resize for upload display.

Have Fun! ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 07, 2012, 04:14:29 PM

or... if you don't want to or cannot download programs, goto www.pixlr.com and use their web-based graphic editor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: bs2012 on December 07, 2012, 04:34:02 PM

Thanks everybody for your kindly assistance.

I am eager to look for somebody to replicate the circui and to verify its efficiency. I do not have any scooe to test it...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on December 07, 2012, 06:38:28 PM

@bs2012 :
It looks to me like another version of the "ghost light". I've found that if the oscillation frequency is high enough the LED will glow dimly, even with one wire disconnected and no earth ground connections. Touching fingers in various places makes it get brighter or dimmer. Current drain is low when this happens, and it's difficult to scope because the system interacts with the scope's ground lead and even with the few tens of pF of the probe's own capacitance. I don't have coils of the specific turns ratios, so we know who "will be" rolling in his coffin if I try to do any work with the coils that I do have.... but I'll see what I can see anyway. Thanks for posting the images and getting them cleared up.

ETA: Irfanview is a great program, it views images and movies and even text files of all kinds, handles .tiff files fine, etc.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Djoko on December 07, 2012, 08:54:35 PM

Quote from: bs2012 on December 07, 2012, 04:49:27 AM
Don't be disappointed with the deem light with this setup. Just disconnect the led with the emitter leg of the transistor and then jam this open leg with the open wire of the base coil. The led would be super bright. Even brighter than with any of the jt I have! However the battery drain is about 30% higher than the jt, measured at about 120 mA. With some tuning, it could be reduced to around 70mA.

Hi bs2012,
The JT Jamed Circuit looks like LaserSaber's Super Joule Ringer 3.0. Am I Correct?

Cheer
Djoko

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: bs2012 on December 07, 2012, 09:43:10 PM

Quote from: Djoko on December 07, 2012, 08:54:35 PM
Hi bs2012,
The JT Jamed Circuit looks like LaserSaber's Super Joule Ringer 3.0. Am I Correct?

Cheer
Djoko

Just compared and seems it is.

Actual I would like to attempt to jam the led leg back to the battery and charge it. Certainly it is failing at the moment but I accidentally found that led is super bright if connected to the base coil.

Still experimenting how to tune jt and self charging jt.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on December 08, 2012, 05:11:51 AM

Timed rundowns from known voltage levels provide a good measure of total input energy and average power dissipation over the timed intervals.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5G0PyJsoyo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5G0PyJsoyo)

I get the start energy at 1.500 V as 3.375 J and after 290 seconds at 0.750 V it's down to 0.844 J, for a total input energy of 2.531 Joules over the 290 second period, for an average power of 2.531 J PER 290 seconds == about 8.73 milliWatts average input power.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Lakes on December 08, 2012, 06:10:30 AM

Good stuff Tk.

Anyone want to try one of those LED "shaker torch" things with this?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rolson-Tools-60753-Shaky-Flashlight/dp/B000WDTIEO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1354964803&sr=8-1 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rolson-Tools-60753-Shaky-Flashlight/dp/B000WDTIEO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1354964803&sr=8-1)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 08, 2012, 01:52:53 PM

Quote from: bs2012 on December 07, 2012, 09:43:10 PM
Just compared and seems it is.

Actual I would like to attempt to jam the led leg back to the battery and charge it. Certainly it is failing at the moment but I accidentally found that led is super bright if connected to the base coil.

Still experimenting how to tune jt and self charging jt.

Hi .. That is very similar to My circuit posted several pages back . i use the base emitter to obtain a 1/2 ua current draw for a what led . That circuit will blow white leds with a charged 1.2 battery thus the need for a high resistance pot ..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Qwert on December 08, 2012, 03:33:03 PM

While I'm wandering at ancient threads of this forum, I've stumbled upon this post, where a guy named "kames" refers to a guy named Zoltan Szili and his circuit. I guess, it can be related to the spirit of this thread:

http://www.overunity.com/712/the-master-of-magnetics-steven-mark/msg4638/#msg4638

here is this circuit and accompanying text:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UiMUcZ1JZc1YDUt5Z6SCas-3qV0fLX14qanxFULQSq4/preview?pli=1

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: bs2012 on December 08, 2012, 05:44:51 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on December 08, 2012, 01:52:53 PM
Hi .. That is very similar to My circuit posted several pages back . i use the base emitter to obtain a 1/2 ua current draw for a what led . That circuit will blow white leds with a charged 1.2 battery thus the need for a high resistance pot ..

Do you mind post the link to that page or post the circuit again. Many thanks.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 08, 2012, 06:13:03 PM

Quote from: bs2012 on December 08, 2012, 05:44:51 PM
Do you mind post the link to that page or post the circuit again. Many thanks.

Hi . It has been Modified by Tk also . your is slightly different too.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 08, 2012, 08:59:10 PM

Quote from: TinselKoala on December 08, 2012, 05:11:51 AM
Timed rundowns from known voltage levels provide a good measure of total input energy and average power dissipation over the timed intervals.

Excellent video. That is a nice clock to have. You may want to look at the equations in this video for how to compute average current from capacitor voltage change >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQinhM1CxkM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQinhM1CxkM)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gyulasun on December 10, 2012, 04:56:09 AM

Quote from: Lakes on December 08, 2012, 06:10:30 AM
Good stuff Tk.

Anyone want to try one of those LED "shaker torch" things with this?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rolson-Tools-60753-Shaky-Flashlight/dp/B000WDTIEO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1354964803&sr=8-1 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rolson-Tools-60753-Shaky-Flashlight/dp/B000WDTIEO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1354964803&sr=8-1)

Be careful with the buying of such shaker torch lamps because in 99% of the cases it does include two CR2032 type button cells! And it does NOT include any supercap, only a 47uF or 100uF normal electrolytic capacitor if at all.
(Just read one of the costumers letter: the lamp was left accidentally ON for one and a half hours and still was ON without any shaking.)

Gyula

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 13, 2012, 10:40:44 AM

Hi Guys and Merry Christmas to Each and every one of you . I hope you and yours get what you want for Christmas .
As for me i am getting this LCF meter after years of wanting one and i will make good use of it to find out why some of my circuits work and some don't . Here is a link for this China Jewel . It can measure Frequency to 500 mhz as well as inductance and capacitance and this will tell exactly how and why several circuits are charging higher than the supply of the modded crossover . There is one other person who has replicated this exactly so i am not alone in this one . http://www.ebay.com/itm/300731799625 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/300731799625)

this is less than 40 dollars and will be a much needed coil winders tool This is bare Bones and will fit In a small box enclosure i have .

L8r

Gadget

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: drodenbe on December 14, 2012, 05:53:24 AM

BS2012

If you leave the base lead open which normally would go to the positive terminal and install a resistor of about 1k in series with about a 20k pot and connect them between the base and the positive you have a basic Katcher circuit. I don't know if you have ever worked with them but they produce a large output. I lit 200 leds off of the last one I built. I have never tried with toroid core ,But I will today may be interesting. By the way I have built a joule thief coil that has been working for a couple of days and it charges the battery and I have a 2600F supercap that it charged up from 1.5 volts to 4.8 volts overnight. I have an HP3490A 6 digit multimeter that I monitor my circuits. I picked it up second hand I think a must when working with these circuits. It reads 4 and 5 places right of decimal point. The coil I wound is a E core configuration with 500t on both primary and secondary. The cores are separated by 2mm gap. Pop cycle sticks work great. On one of the windings I wound a 10 turn coil with #22 wire. The 500t coil is #24. I use one winding as joule thief. If you have two grounds from outside as I do you should run the positive side of the battery to one ground and hook the other to the plus side of the circuit. I have tried the same hookup only using the negative side but the plus side works better. I am experimenting with different windings to see if I can improve the charge rate. Also I want to add that with the gap between the other winding It doesn't load the primary coil. This is a plus in its self. Have not had time to check out the possibilities with the second winding. Well I guess I have spent my two cents. Have fun playing with circuit if you like.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: drodenbe on December 14, 2012, 06:02:06 AM

gadgetmall

I bought one of the LC meters you are talking about. I have had it for a couple months and it is great. I have two other different kinds, I bought earlier and I hate them. won't measure most of what I hook them up to. But this one is great. I am so happy with it I am going to give it a new home inside a nice utility box.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on December 14, 2012, 06:10:35 AM

Those meters are so cool.... I just used my Arduino and a few other parts to build a little circuit to measure inductance. A little more work and it becomes the LC and Freq meter too, but for now it's just inductance. It's amazing how versatile the Arduino is. This morning it made my breakfast in the TKSousDuino PID temperature controlled crockpot, and tonight it's measuring my stray inductors, and doing it better than my "ProsKit" LCR meter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6N8ys8FiA4

Links to the source of the project and the program sketch are in the video description.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on December 14, 2012, 08:04:34 AM

I thought you might like to see a scopeshot of how these meters do their thing.

This is it measuring a 1 milliHenry coil: The top trace is the pulse response from the comparator circuit and the bottom is the stimulus pulse to the coil and its ringing response. The Arduino sends a short pulse and the inductor rings, and the Arduino reads the frequency of the upper trace and then calculates the inductance, according to the known capacitance value of the tank circuit. It's a pretty thing to watch on the scope.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 14, 2012, 01:37:47 PM

Quote from: drodenbe on December 14, 2012, 06:02:06 AM
gadgetmall

I bought one of the LC meters you are talking about. I have had it for a couple months and it is great. I have two other different kinds, I bought earlier and I hate them. won't measure most of what I hook them up to. But this one is great. I am so happy with it I am going to give it a new home inside a nice utility box.

What is the smallest inductance and capacitance it will measure?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 14, 2012, 02:46:15 PM

Quote from: xee2 on December 14, 2012, 01:37:47 PM

What is the smallest inductance and capacitance it will measure?

The minimum resolution: 0.01 pF
* Inductance measuring range: 0.001 uH - 100mH
* Big inductance measuring range: 0.001 mH - 100H

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 14, 2012, 06:57:33 PM

Quote from: gadgetmall on December 14, 2012, 02:46:15 PM
The minimum resolution: 0.01 pF
* Inductance measuring range: 0.001 uH - 100mH
* Big inductance measuring range: 0.001 mH - 100H

Thanks. That is a great deal.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on December 15, 2012, 02:50:31 AM

0.001 microHenry, that is, one nanoHy? Sorry, I don't believe it. The display might display 1.000 milliHenry at the low range but this is false precision.

What is the inductance of one inch, straight, of #27 magnet wire?

It is over 26 nanoHy, more than 26 times your instrument's stated lower limit.

So you are telling me that instrument can measure accurately..... the inductance of two millimeters of wire.

http://www.consultrsr.com/resources/eis/induct5.htm

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: verpies on December 15, 2012, 02:43:15 PM

Quote from: TinselKoala on December 15, 2012, 02:50:31 AM
What is the inductance of one inch, straight, of #27 magnet wire?
It is over 26 nanoHy,

This guy (http://electronbunker.ca/CalcMethods2d.html) claims that for helixes of large pitch, a coiled wire has less inductance than a straight wire!
Don't take my word for it - read it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gadgetmall on December 15, 2012, 08:19:40 PM

Tk i just copied and pasted from the meter ad 8) I could not find what kind of chip is on it but it has good reviews . Do you think it is an adreino ?

Drodenbe Thanks and good to know !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on December 16, 2012, 04:53:44 AM

Quote from: gadgetmall on December 15, 2012, 08:19:40 PM
Tk i just copied and pasted from the meter ad 8) I could not find what kind of chip is on it but it has good reviews . Do you think it is an adreino ?

Drodenbe Thanks and good to know !

I don't know, I doubt if it has a full Arduino in there, but it could be the same microprocessor. Can you see the main chip? Is it an Atmel or ATmega 328?

I'm pretty sure it will use the same technique for getting the inductance though: send a quick pulse to the inductor, use a comparator to track the zero-crossings of the ringdown waveforms , and read the frequency of the comparator's output, like my scopeshot shows.

But it doesn't matter how it does it really.... it is just that it is very hard, using any technique, to measure tiny inductances... since the test leads themselves have much greater inductance than 1 nHy and at those low values, even the positioning of the leads can have a great (relative) effect.

Hey, it's still a very cool meter, and a bargain for what it does. And it inspired me to do it with Arduino! Thanks..... !

I just made another JT vid showing an interesting effect using a loopstick variable inductor, with an extra winding, for the transformer. It will be up in an hour or so, and I'll post a link then.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on December 16, 2012, 04:59:23 AM

Quote from: verpies on December 15, 2012, 02:43:15 PM
This guy (http://electronbunker.ca/CalcMethods2d.html) claims that for helixes of large pitch, a coiled wire has less inductance than a straight wire!
Don't take my word for it - read it.

I can believe it. A lot of time you will see commercial inductors wound with helical-type or herringbone windings... the loopstick I just experimented with is an example. I think this is done to use a lot of wire to get the DC resistance up, without raising the self-inductance much. Then the loopstick has a good ferrite adjustable core, to get the inductance back up to useful values.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on December 29, 2012, 02:13:07 AM

Hi Guys, just popping in to say G'day from the land Down Under.
An update, havent been ignoring, OU in t5he back of my mind right now.
Things got too much for me with the floods two years ago to the day, still repairing my house, then my wife of 36 years passed away two months ago.
I'm battling on, will get back in here eventually when it's not so full on here.
Keep up the good work.
Happy new year to everyone.
Jim

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: WilbyInebriated on December 29, 2012, 03:14:54 AM

Quote from: electricme on December 29, 2012, 02:13:07 AM
Hi Guys, just popping in to say G'day from the land Down Under.
An update, havent been ignoring, OU in t5he back of my mind right now.
Things got too much for me with the floods two years ago to the day, still repairing my house, then my wife of 36 years passed away two months ago.
I'm battling on, will get back in here eventually when it's not so full on here.
Keep up the good work.
Happy new year to everyone.
Jim

howdy jim, good to hear from you!
i am very sorry to hear of your loss. hold tight to memories of love shared for comfort, lean on your friends for strength, and always remember how much you are cared about.

the best things in life aren't things...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on December 29, 2012, 12:44:34 PM

Hello again E.

It's great to hear from you. I'm sorry for your loss, but glad you will be back soon.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on December 29, 2012, 12:45:46 PM

@all

Here is my latest ultra low power JT.

P.S. Sorry for the low video quality.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlXKvnj-TuQ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on December 29, 2012, 01:02:15 PM

Quote from: stprue on December 29, 2012, 12:45:46 PM
@all

Here is my latest ultra low power JT.

P.S. Sorry for the low video quality.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlXKvnj-TuQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlXKvnj-TuQ)

The best I could do was 1 Volt and 50 µA, see the attached circuit and photos. The LED glows always (no blinking).

@stprue: It would be nice to see a circuit diagram and component specification of your low power circuit.

Greetings, Conrad

P.S.: I found the circuit somewhere, not my invention.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on December 29, 2012, 05:28:06 PM

@electricme
Still keep an eye on progress here, may I say I'm so sorry to here of your sad loss, God bless you Jim with better times to come in the New Year. Merv

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on December 29, 2012, 10:51:44 PM

@Wilby, stprue & croclaw,
Thank you all, it's appreceated very much.
stprue, the video looks fine by me, good work.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on December 30, 2012, 08:53:43 AM

Hello Conrad,
I will hand draw a diagram and post it.

@All
Someone here recently gave a link to a great little free circuit diagram program. It also converted to breadboard views. Does anyone know what the name of the program?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on December 30, 2012, 09:09:22 AM

I like the use of the magnets to make the battery connections, that's a nice touch and one that I will shamelessly start using in my lab.
Thanks!!

What happens if you remove the Schottky diode that is in series with the LED? I'm not grasping why this diode needs to be there.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on December 30, 2012, 10:07:03 AM

Quote from: stprue on December 30, 2012, 08:53:43 AM
@All
Someone here recently gave a link to a great little free circuit diagram program. It also converted to breadboard views. Does anyone know what the name of the program?

someone posted this one which is real nice..
http://fritzing.org/ (http://fritzing.org/)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on December 30, 2012, 10:46:01 AM

Quote from: TinselKoala on December 30, 2012, 09:09:22 AM
I like the use of the magnets to make the battery connections, that's a nice touch and one that I will shamelessly start using in my lab.
Thanks!!

What happens if you remove the Schottky diode that is in series with the LED? I'm not grasping why this diode needs to be there.

I also use two little magnets, one has a red litz wire soldered to it and the other one a black litz wire. The other end of the wires has endings which plug nicely into the plus and minus rail of a breed board (solid wire ends soldered to flexible litz-wire). This gives an easy connection of a breed board to a battery. I saw this on a web site which discussed various circuits. Most things I know about electronics are gleened from some forums or web sites.

The Schottky diode in series with the LED turns the LED into a "good diode" which really blocks current in the reverse direction. In the forward direction it does no harm because its forward Voltage is lower than the forward Voltage of a LED. The power consumption of the 1 V 50 µA circuit I posted was lower when using the Schottky diode in series with the LED. I attributed this to the better reverse current blocking, but I could be wrong. The effect is not hight, may be some 20%.

I measured power consumption with a scope over a 1 Ohm shunt (in the positive power supply line) doing an approximate averageing of the Voltage curve by hand. The true RMS measurement of my scope over the shunt was pretty accurate as well (compared to the averageing of the Voltage curve by hand). The power comsumption of a Joule Thief happens in bursts. But my digital multimeter measured the power comsumption also very well (the average Voltage over a 1 Ohm shunt and the direct current measurement in µA when the multimeter was put in the positive power supply line).

I still believe (after many experiments) that a Joule Thief with an air coil can have less power demands in comparison to using a Ferrite toroid. But the air coil will be bigger than a Ferrite toroid. 100 turns for the base coil and 200 turns for the collector coil over a 2 cm plastic tube seem to be well suited for the circuit I posted. To keep the power supply voltage down to 0.5 Volt, the number of turns can be doubled. To start the Joule Thief I needed 0.7 Volt, but once started the Voltage could be dropped to 0.5 Volt. Air cores also allow for a higher frequency of oscillation which can reduce power demand when the currents become more like spikes.

A high electrolytic capacitor over the power supply (e.g. 100 µF) helps with weak power sources but increases the average power consumption. The reason seems to be that an electrolytic capacitor can give the peak power but a battery is to slow. So, when the peak power demand happens the electrolytic capaciter will fulfill it and then is slowly filled by the battery till the peak power demand happens again in the next cycle.

I am not so sure that a Joule Thief with two transistors uses less power in comparison to a one transistor JouleThief which is carefully designed (if one wants a LED that is continuously lit). The key features are frequency (should be 100 KHz or better more) and a very well designed coil, best air core. A 1 nF capacitor over a 100K to 500K resistor to the base helps to reduce power consumption by reducing the "switch on time" of the transistor and by assuring the necessary threshold voltage at the base to switch the transitor on.

I believe that power comsumption can be brought down to below 1 V and 50µA by having the LED blink, but this is not pretty according to my humble opinion.

White LEDs which I bought recently seem to need less power than red LEDs in order to be dimly visible. There was some progress concerning the light output of white LEDs.

I still try (without success so far) to have a LED continuously dimly lit by the electro smog in our environment (mobile phone transmissions, wireless LANs and 220 V 50 Hz mains grid). The energy density seems to be too low. A long antenna and a good ground seem to help, but still too little energy.

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 30, 2012, 12:00:18 PM

Jim:

Great to see you back here Mate. As you know, I too am very sorry for your loss. Here's to better days ahead for all of us. There is some great work being done here by many folks. I have been unable to keep up with it all lately. Lighting leds on such low power...it is amazing to me.

Happy New Year to you Jim, and to everyone.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on December 30, 2012, 12:33:39 PM

Quote from: kooler on December 30, 2012, 10:07:03 AM

someone posted this one which is real nice..
http://fritzing.org/ (http://fritzing.org/)

Yes this is the one I was looking for Kooler.

Thank you much!!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on December 30, 2012, 01:43:03 PM

@conrad: thanks, the reason for the Schottky makes good sense, and I think I agree with all the rest of your post as well. I even got my JT test bed with basic JT circuit to work using the 40+40 turn bifilar air-core coil I wound just for the demonstration (connected as bifilar with the head-tail interconnect connected to the positive rail) , but it does use more current. I'm getting some very interesting effects with the modified Loopstick variable inductor w/ primary, but I haven't gotten around to videoing it yet.

Here's a circuit I found that seems very interesting and might be adapted to run an LED from the "electrosmog", but might need earth grounding.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on December 30, 2012, 02:07:59 PM

Quote from: TinselKoala on December 30, 2012, 01:43:03 PM
Here's a circuit I found that seems very interesting and might be adapted to run an LED from the "electrosmog", but might need earth grounding.

@TinselKoala: thank you for the circuit which uses the mains humm as a power source. The full bridge rectifier seems to be the way to go. It could work in combination with the low Voltage Peltier Joule Thief circuit at http://www.overunity.com/13175/25mv-joule-thief-powered-by-peltier-merely-using-our-body-heat-free-energy-247/ (http://www.overunity.com/13175/25mv-joule-thief-powered-by-peltier-merely-using-our-body-heat-free-energy-247/) . I ordered some 2SK170 transistors and will try.

In order to catch high frequency electro smog from mobile phone towers and WIFI spots one needs very high frequency diodes (8 GHz). I have some, but not being at home at the moment I can not look them up just now. Will post their specification some other day.

By the way, all AM radio transmitters have been shut down in Europe. Only some Eastern European countries like Russia still send some radio programs via AM. So, one has to go for FM (60 to 120 MHz), TV (400 to 800 MHz), cell phone transmissions (some GHz) and the WIFI and WLAN spots (up to 8GHz) or the 50 Hz humm from the 220V mains (which propably is the most promising).

Radar could be a power source (because all countries sweep their territory with Radar, and they reach up to a 1000 km radius overlapping each other. But the frequency is around 400 GHz or even higher. There are diodes for this frequency but they are not easily available on the market.

An other area is VLF or ELF (down to a frequency below 1 Hz). The military uses it for submarines and also lightning causes ELF transmissions. It needs very long antennas, but my garden fence could be the antenna. There still might be some surprises in the ELF range (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremely_low_frequency (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremely_low_frequency)) , it is not well researched. Nature might transmit something there which could be used as a powersource.

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on December 30, 2012, 11:17:37 PM

@Pirate
Thank you Bill....... I will B in touch shortly by land line
@TinselKola, I like your Crt drawing in the "air power" to run a something,,,,,, put a Super Cap on it's output and see if you can save it.
@Conradelectro, exactly, spot on about the caps.
Q... how do I cram 1,000,000 posts since I was here last? lol
@ Everyone, Happy new year to you all.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Lakes on December 31, 2012, 04:35:13 AM

Another circuit.
https://sites.google.com/site/amplificatoare/free-energy-collector-circuit.

@Tk like the circuit, I remember building something similar many years ago.

Happy 2013 everyone!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on December 31, 2012, 11:10:36 AM

The radio isn't exactly "my" circuit, it's something I found on the internet, the author's name is on the diagram. I think I'd use a germanium transistor and germanium diodes too.

The voltage collector Lakes linked looks pretty cool, I wonder if I have enough germanium diodes left to try it. I might have enough if I mix 1n34a, 1n60 and NTE109 types, I have a few of each left. I do have a longwire antenna outside, but only 20 meters or so in length, and I do have a good Earth ground. 40 volts at 10 Watts..... hmmm....... we shall see.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Lakes on December 31, 2012, 11:17:09 AM

Quote from: TinselKoala on December 31, 2012, 11:10:36 AM
The radio isn't exactly "my" circuit, it's something I found on the internet, the author's name is on the diagram. I think I'd use a germanium transistor and germanium diodes too.

The voltage collector Lakes linked looks pretty cool, I wonder if I have enough germanium diodes left to try it. I might have enough if I mix 1n34a, 1n60 and NTE109 types, I have a few of each left. I do have a longwire antenna outside, but only 20 meters or so in length, and I do have a good Earth ground. 40 volts at 10 Watts..... hmmm....... we shall see.

Yeah, I noticed the "10w @ 40v" as well, look forward to the video Tk! :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: synchro1 on December 31, 2012, 01:05:06 PM

@Tinselkicola,

Can't wait to see how good the neutral line antenna will work on this super sized Ambient Power Module!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on December 31, 2012, 02:43:02 PM

Quote from: Lakes on December 31, 2012, 04:35:13 AM
Another circuit.
https://sites.google.com/site/amplificatoare/free-energy-collector-circuit.

@Tk like the circuit, I remember building something similar many years ago.

Happy 2013 everyone!

There is something with this circuit that looks wrong to me. The electrolytic capacitors (C9, C11, C13 and C15)
at the left side of the circuit seems to be upside down. The + on the electrolytic capacitor should be pointing up.
Also, the 8 electrolytic capacitors (C1 to C8) in the middle of the circuit should be ceramic or non-polariced poly
capacitors. If the polarity of C1 to C6 is correct, why does C7 and C8 have the plus the opposite way?

Attached is how I think this circuit should be made.

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: synchro1 on December 31, 2012, 08:24:26 PM

@Groundloop,

This schematic of Joe Tate's circuit shows your !00% right about the capacitor and diode direction:

Moderator: The circuit drawing was posted to times. I deleted one of them.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on December 31, 2012, 09:49:59 PM

thanks to ou friends synchro and tk
alex for the update

happy nu yr to all

totoalas

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on January 01, 2013, 02:38:32 AM

Quote from: synchro1 on December 31, 2012, 08:24:26 PM
@Groundloop,

This schematic of Joe Tate's circuit shows your 100% right about the capacitor and diode direction:

Moderator: The circuit drawing was posted to times. I deleted one of them.

Synchro1,

Thank you for posting the Joe Tate's circuit. I now see that my drawing is probably correct.
I now see that my posted circuit is like the Joe Tate's circuit, but is made of several series
steps to get a higher voltage output. I will solder up a prototype board of this circuit tomorrow
and give it a try.

Alex.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on January 01, 2013, 03:07:39 AM

I have designed this circuit in Eagle CAD. Attached is the design files if anybody want to make
a PCB for this. I will solder my first test on a universal printed board first, and if I get some
good result, then I will consider ordering printed circuit boards. A free version of Eagle CAD
can be downloaded from here: http://www.cadsoftusa.com/download-eagle/

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on January 01, 2013, 03:13:04 AM

Quote from: totoalas on December 31, 2012, 09:49:59 PM
thanks to ou friends synchro and tk
alex for the update

happy nu yr to all

totoalas

Hi Totoalas,

Happy new year 2013. :-)

Alex.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Lakes on January 01, 2013, 05:25:58 AM

Well spotted and good work GroundLoop.

Happy 2013! :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on January 01, 2013, 06:58:41 AM

@Groundloop

The circuit have there looks great. I look forward to seeing what it can do.

:D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on January 01, 2013, 11:52:06 AM

Quote from: synchro1 on December 31, 2012, 08:24:26 PM
@Groundloop,

This schematic of Joe Tate's circuit shows your !00% right about the capacitor and diode direction:

Moderator: The circuit drawing was posted to times. I deleted one of them.

In my modified version, C1 and C2 removed, C4 polarity is reversed and cap values are 4700 uf 35 v and all in4007 diodes
I can charge the cap from 0 to 12 v in less than 4 minutes using AC Neutral as antenna and Earth ( from water pipe ) as ground
I can light for a second a 12 v dc 3 watt led lamp , and a 3w ac led lamp will flash slowly
the original tate circuit ( same circuit with c4 reversed polarity and in4148 diodes used ) my meter reading in the 500 v dc scale is 210 and will flash a 3 w ac led lamp slowly (AC neutral RF Charger Load) imtotob YT
will see GL's AMP2
totoalas :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on January 01, 2013, 01:14:54 PM

High frequency ambient energy receiver needs high frequency diodes:

For the 50 Hz mains hum, AM radio transmitters and even FM radio transmitters the receiver circuits shown above (the many diodes receiver and the four diodes receiver) will work with "ordinary diodes" like the 1N34 or the 1N4007.

But if one wants to hook into the cell phone towers, WIFI hot spots or WLANs, high frequency diodes are necessary (up to 10 GHz). The one I found is the HSMP-389x series (see the attached data sheet, look at Figures 10 and 11).

Would be nice if someone found other high frequency diodes in the GHz, please specify them here.

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 01, 2013, 04:15:28 PM

I think I found some here:

http://www.insight-product.com/60_GHZ.html (http://www.insight-product.com/60_GHZ.html)

If you scroll down you can find diodes from 33-140 GHz. Maybe too high for wi-fi and cell?

Bill

PS Better choices here:

http://www.macomtech.com/pin-switch-and-attenuator-diodes

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on January 01, 2013, 04:38:50 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 01, 2013, 04:15:28 PM
I think I found some here:

http://www.insight-product.com/60_GHZ.html (http://www.insight-product.com/60_GHZ.html)

If you scroll down you can find diodes from 33-140 GHz. Maybe too high for wi-fi and cell?

Bill

PS Better choices here:

http://www.macomtech.com/pin-switch-and-attenuator-diodes (http://www.macomtech.com/pin-switch-and-attenuator-diodes)

@Pirate: specially your second quote looks interesting, but I doubt that they sell small quantities.

I also got the HSMS-282x series diodes. The forward Voltage is as low as 0.34V at 1 mA and they should handle a few GHz. (From the data sheet, see page 8: The HSMS‑282x family, with its wide variety of packaging, can be used to make excellent mixers at frequencies up to 6 GHz.)

I will try the diodes I have got and in case of success I will try to find better diodes. The WLANs here are at 2,4 GHz and 5 GHz. In 2014 they want to sell WLANs in the 60 GHz range, but not yet.

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on January 02, 2013, 06:44:47 AM

I have my universal printed circuit board for the AMP-2 soldered now.
Next step will be connecting a antenna and ground and
start measuring the output.

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on January 02, 2013, 07:23:25 AM

What type of germanium diodes are you using? Are the caps Code 204 (200nf)?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: synchro1 on January 02, 2013, 07:32:12 AM

@Groundloop,

Looks fantastic! A good rule to remember is that output is directly proportional to the antenna dimension. The A.C. neutral line looks like a massive one.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on January 02, 2013, 08:13:17 AM

stprue,

I'm using NTE109 germanium diodes, 1nF 500 volt ceramic capacitors and 2,2uF 100 volt electrolytic capacitors.
(That was what I had, so I used that.)

synchro1,

The mains neutral in Norway is the same as the ground (often the metal water pipes is used as ground).
We do not use distributed ground on the mains in Norway. So there is no difference in the electrical ground
or the outside ground since the electrical ground is connected to the metal copper pipes where I live.

I will do a test on the mains ground anyway to see if I get any output. Then I will try a antenna and outside ground.

First test of AMP2:

Mains ground to circuit ground, Earth ground to circuit antenna = 0,00 Volt over 470 Ohm load.
Earth ground to circuit ground, mains ground to circuit antenna = 0,00 Volt over 470 Ohm load.
Inside house 4 meter copper wire antenna to circuit antenna, Earth ground to circuit ground = 0,00 Volt over a 470 Ohm resistor.
Inside house 4 meter copper wire antenna to circuit ground, Earth ground to circuit antenna = 0,00 Volt over a 470 Ohm resistor.
Inside house 4 meter copper wire antenna to circuit antenna, Earth ground to circuit ground and unloaded circuit = 0,01 Volt.

Circuit antenna input connected to cable TV ground and circuit ground connected to Earth ground, gave 7,5 volt unloaded.
A green LED did blink dimly each time I connected the LED to the circuit. The circuit capacitors did charge back in under 0,5 second.

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on January 02, 2013, 08:34:45 AM

Thanks GL.

I look forward to your results.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: DreamThinkBuild on January 02, 2013, 08:38:15 AM

Nice work Groundloop.

Looks like an energy harvesting circuit.

Patent:7791557 - Multiple antenna energy harvesting
http://www.google.com/patents/US7791557

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on January 02, 2013, 09:27:42 AM

My conclusion so far is that this circuit do work. But one will need a long outside antenna and
a good earth grounding to get a output that can be used to charge batteries etc. So a good antenna
and good grounding, and there you go, free energy. (Minus the cost of the circuit:-)

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on January 02, 2013, 10:55:58 AM

@Groundloop

Read about Jes's version!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on January 02, 2013, 03:04:34 PM

QuoteAs with all free-energy devices, the exact
constructional details are vital.

Can't argue with that !!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on January 02, 2013, 03:29:33 PM

Quote from: stprue on January 02, 2013, 10:55:58 AM
@Groundloop

Read about Jes's version!

stprue,

Thank you for the document.

There was a part of the document that did not sound right. (See attached)

Two modules can power a LED to full brightness at 2.6 Volt. Let us say that the
current to fully lit a normal LED is 20mA. Then, P = (U*U) / I = (2,6*2,6) / 20 = 0,338mW.
That was for two modules, so one module can then provide 0,169mW.

Then the article goes on to say that you can fully charge a 12 Volt battery with 20 modules
over night. 20 modules is 3,36 Watt. If it is a very small battery, then yes, but if it is a large
car battery, then no way. (20 modules can power 10 LEDs.)

Then the article goes on to say that with a estimated of 200 modules, you can power your house.
You can power 100 LEDs with 200 modules. Nowhere close to powering a house.

To conclude, yes the ambient power module do work. But the output of each module
is low, typical 0,169mW. To power a house you will need an afoul lot of modules to
get enough power.

That said, I plan to make an 24 Watt (approx.) module. Attached is the Eagle CAD design files.

The 24 Watt module has 144 single modules onto a printed circuit board. I use 12 modules
in series and the 12 of the series modules in parallel. The work on this has begun but the soldering
is a pain in the ass. 576 diodes and 576 capacitors to solder, so 1152 solders in total. A lot of work. :-)

The PCB and parts did cost me approx. 6000 Norwegian Kroner. (Approx. 1088 USD).
I expect to get this board ready in a couple of months time. (I solder some few components each day.)

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on January 02, 2013, 04:44:32 PM

GL
Congratulations
Way to go in 2013 lol :) :) :)
totoalas

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on January 02, 2013, 05:31:07 PM

I just built a single module and it works to light an LED dimly using my Earth ground and my 15-meter longwire antenna outside (not a very good antenna). This house has a metal roof and is in kind of a radio-dead zone besides; it's hard to pick up standard broadcast signals.

It works with either polarity, too...that is, it doesn't matter whether I have the ground, or the antenna, hooked to the hookup points, works either way. The same module hooked across the little bifilar coil lights the LED brightly when near my wireless power transmitter..... perhaps the most inefficient way to light an LED yet discovered ! 12 volts at several amps input to the transmitter..... and a small green LED glowing brightly on the output !!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on January 02, 2013, 05:45:25 PM

A ground is one side of an electrical supply that allows the flow of electrons to exit its source. With no ground, the electricity cannot move away from its source and and cannot do any work.
http://cr4.globalspec.com/PostImages/200809/Ground_73D8068A-90F5-1190-9B9F0521134DB637.JPG (http://cr4.globalspec.com/PostImages/200809/Ground_73D8068A-90F5-1190-9B9F0521134DB637.JPG))
In the case of a vehicle with lots of metal (e.g. an automobile or a ship), the power is run from a source, through a resistance (meaning how it is utilized, like a motor or light bulb), and into the metal body. The metal body is large enough to absorb most of the extra electron flow and transmit it to the earth through the air, water, or other fluid in which it is situated.
Because the transmission of electrons through fluid encourages rust to form on the large metal body, the transmission is sometimes routed through a 'sacrificial anode'...a piece of metal lower on the galvanic response scale...so that the sacrificial anode does the rusting instead of the metal body to which it is attached as the electrons flow through the anode and then through the ambient fluid to the earth.
(http://cr4.globalspec.com/PostImages/200809/Ground_with_sacrifical_anode_73D89A5F-ADE4-532E-C868EDC33AD0F8AB.JPG)
The body is called a ground, the practice is called 'grounding', and it is so-called because it imitates the quality of the planetary surface of our planet to absorb an electron flow, which makes the earth the largest of all grounds.
Grounding is also the descriptive word used when the electricity follows any path to the earth or any other ground. If the grounding is very light, or caused accidentally, it is called a 'ground fault', and can sometimes inhibit a full electricity flow through the circuit. People who are electrocuted accidentally have unintentionally provided a path to a ground or to the earth for electricity from the source to follow; so for example wall outlets have been designed that open immediately if the tiniest overload through them caused by a ground fault is detected to prevent accidental electrocution.
In household wiring, all the wires that will eventually run to the ground are gathered together first, as 'neutral' wires, then connected to a single ground, usually the earth either at the house or at a power station's choice of locations.
The earth or 'earth' you are speaking of is the planet you are standing on. The earth is the mother of all grounds. Since it is huge and the moisture in its surface enhances electricity flow, a conductive stake driven into it will act as the perfect exit for the flowing electrons in an electrical circuit. Sometimes water pipes are used to ground circuits as they eventually connect through the earth to their underground sources.
That is why in some countries, the words 'earth' and 'earthing' are sometimes interchangeable with the words 'ground' and 'grounding'. If a ground is not found by using the earth, a large metal source will usually do.
Mark
The above quote are for newbies to understand the terms
Happy experimenting
totoalas :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on January 03, 2013, 08:31:42 AM

@GL,

That's a lot of $$. What I would also do if I were you is also follow Jes's instructions on the Al plate/antenna. Also check out the link to EE forum. There is 3 pages of good information there. What is not clearly stated is what the Al plate should be insulated with something and from whatever you will be hanging it on. I have done a little research on this and it seems that teflon spray might be a better insulation choice. Something about negative ion attraction, but do your own research to confirm. Sounds like you may soon have a free energy lab as the very least. I'm very excited to see a scaled up version of this radiant energy receiver. Other then stories of people building these units, I have never actually know the good credentials of a builder, until now! :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: e2matrix on January 03, 2013, 12:21:42 PM

I was just going to mention that you will see much better results with a Teflon coated wire but I see stprue just mentioned that. I'm not sure teflon spray is the way to go though since you can buy Teflon coated wire. The Teflon attracts charges and even a slight wind can add a lot to the effect. It's a bit more expensive but somewhere between $10 and $20 should get you about 50 feet of it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on January 03, 2013, 12:43:28 PM

I was not aware about the wire being covered with teflon as well. Very interesting, thank you e2matrix. My suggestion for the teflon spray would be for the receiving plate. This should be a quick and easy way to insulate your antenna plate.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on January 03, 2013, 01:09:58 PM

I did a test based on the "no power AM radio schematics" published by TinselKoala a few pages up in this thread, just the power generating part, no radio receiver.

See the attached schematics and scope shot. I only saw the 50 Hz hum.

As antenna I use a 10 meter cable (laid out on the floor of my kitchen) and the steel water pipes in my house as ground.

In spring I will make some tests with a long antenna in my garden. Now it is freezing cold, which discourages me to build something outside.

I tried to receive some high frequency signals (cell phone tower, WLAN), but no success. Propably needs a special well tuned antenna.

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on January 03, 2013, 01:25:11 PM

Quote from: stprue on January 03, 2013, 08:31:42 AM
@GL,

That's a lot of $$. What I would also do if I were you is also follow Jes's instructions on the Al plate/antenna. Also check out the link to EE forum. There is 3 pages of good information there. What is not clearly stated is what the Al plate should be insulated with something and from whatever you will be hanging it on. I have done a little research on this and it seems that teflon spray might be a better insulation choice. Something about negative ion attraction, but do your own research to confirm. Sounds like you may soon have a free energy lab as the very least. I'm very excited to see a scaled up version of this radiant energy receiver. Other then stories of people building these units, I have never actually know the good credentials of a builder, until now! :)

Stprue,

Yes, that sum did cover 4 of the printed circuit boards and enough diodes and capacitors to solder one board.
If my first 24 Watt board works OK, then I will order parts to solder the three spare boards also.
I will try out the shiny metal plate at one point. But it will have to wait until summer time.

Thanks for the teflon spray tip.

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on January 03, 2013, 03:42:59 PM

You might need as many antennas and ground connections as you have modules, in order to get the full advertised power.

I wonder if it would save time to make up a handy "wave soldering" tank. An hour or two spent making the tank, and half a minute to solder all the components simultaneously.... might be worth the effort !

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: synchro1 on January 03, 2013, 04:01:55 PM

@Tinselkoala,

Totoalas wired two modules in parallel between his A.C. neutral line and faucet pipe earth ground and found they divided the output.

This brand of ebulient excess is quite a departure from a guy who not more then a few months ago forsook any and all belief in Overunity circuits sin qua non!.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Lakes on January 03, 2013, 04:08:52 PM

Quote from: TinselKoala on January 03, 2013, 03:42:59 PM
You might need as many antennas and ground connections as you have modules, in order to get the full advertised power.

I wonder if it would save time to make up a handy "wave soldering" tank. An hour or two spent making the tank, and half a minute to solder all the components simultaneously.... might be worth the effort !

A DIY wave soldering tank?, Is this practical or even possible to do?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on January 03, 2013, 04:22:42 PM

Quote from: TinselKoala on January 03, 2013, 03:42:59 PM
You might need as many antennas and ground connections as you have modules, in order to get the full advertised power.

I wonder if it would save time to make up a handy "wave soldering" tank. An hour or two spent making the tank, and half a minute to solder all the components simultaneously.... might be worth the effort !

TK,

The actual soldering goes fast. What is taking time is to put the components onto the board.
So a robot arm putting the components onto the board, and then to the wave soldering station. :-)

Seriously, if I was loaded with money I could order a factory to solder my boards. I'm not, so
hand soldering is the only option.

>>You might need as many antennas and ground connections as you have modules, in order to get the full advertised power.

If collecting RF is your only theory regarding this circuit, then yes, many antennas etc. But I think it is more to this
circuit than just collecting RF. So I will try out a really large metal plate also. But as I said, this project will take time.
I will only find time to test the metal plate(s) next summer.

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on January 03, 2013, 04:41:43 PM

Quote from: synchro1 on December 31, 2012, 08:24:26 PM
@Groundloop,

This schematic of Joe Tate's circuit shows your !00% right about the capacitor and diode direction:

Moderator: The circuit drawing was posted to times. I deleted one of them.

My variant
No C1 and C2, C3 and C4( reverse polarity) - 4700 uf 35 v dc , X2 X3 junction(Neutral point) not connected to C3 C4 junction(Earth point) , In4007 diodes used
On single module - charges from 0 to 12 v in 3 minutes
The original module ( diodes In4148) in parallel with the variant increase charging rate to less than a minute ( 0 to 12 v dc)
All connections are with AC Neutral as antenna and earth ( water pipe) as ground . Reference drawing on page 1065 post no 15964 by Synchro
MAYBE We can minimize the modules based on the cap sise, type , diodes used
AND JT modules at the pos / neg output will increase the dc voltage / av plugs to coils etc
On the spot application - for trickle charging individual batteries in a bank when the sun/ solar panel is down
totoalas

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on January 03, 2013, 04:48:33 PM

Quote from: totoalas on January 03, 2013, 04:41:43 PM
My variant
No C1 and C2, C2 and C4( reverse polarity) - 4700 uf 35 v dc , X2 X3 junction not connectec to C2 C4 junction, In4007 diodes used
On single module - charges from 0 to 12 v in 3 minutes
The original module ( diodes In4148) in parallel with the variant increase charging rate to less than a minute ( 0 to 12 v dc)
All connections are with AC Neutral as antenna and earth ( water pipe) as ground
MAYBE We can minimize the modules based on the cap sise, type , diodes used
AND JT modules at the pos / neg output will increase the dc voltage / av plugs to coils etc
On the spot application - for trickle charging individual batteries in a bank when the sun/ solar panel is down
totoalas

Totoalas,

Please make a drawing of you version. It is easier to see a drawing that explaining a circuit by text.

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on January 03, 2013, 04:55:54 PM

Hi Alex
still in the office with limited access ..... will do after 6 hours ( added more details on post 15977 - drawing reference page 1065 post 15964 by Synchro)
tnks
totoalas

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on January 03, 2013, 05:22:02 PM

I'd like to know other people's results from switching the ground and antenna hookups. Preliminary testing of my single module using 1n34a diodes seems to be telling me there's no difference.....

Tomorrow I'm going to erect a large metal plate (actually a roll of heavy duty aluminum foil) up in the attic. We have a metal roof, so that should be interesting..... Maybe I'll hook a wire to the roof itself, even though it's attached to the house, it's a huge area of sheetmetal....

And there is a huge difference in my mind between "overunity" performance and harvesting some of the energies that are constantly swirling around us.....
;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on January 03, 2013, 05:34:07 PM

Quote from: TinselKoala on January 03, 2013, 05:22:02 PM
I'd like to know other people's results from switching the ground and antenna hookups. Preliminary testing of my single module using 1n34a diodes seems to be telling me there's no difference.....

Tomorrow I'm going to erect a large metal plate (actually a roll of heavy duty aluminum foil) up in the attic. We have a metal roof, so that should be interesting..... Maybe I'll hook a wire to the roof itself, even though it's attached to the house, it's a huge area of sheetmetal....

And there is a huge difference in my mind between "overunity" performance and harvesting some of the energies that are constantly swirling around us.....
;)

TK,

I did try switching my circuit the other way around, and I got the same voltage output. But I think an outside antenna can
receive more than just RF. If you put an uninsulated wire between to poles, then the wind and rain will generate a lot of static
electricity to be harvested from the wire to ground. Looking forward to see the result of your plate test. Are you going to spray
the aluminum plate with paint etc. to get the plate insulated from the air?

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on January 03, 2013, 05:48:45 PM

I hadn't planned on insulating the foil except at its supports. But after I experiment with the bare foil for a while I may try spraying it with Krylon or something like that. I think that my attic might be almost a Faraday cage, though, with that metal roof. About half the house wiring also runs in the attic, so it's bound to be a very interesting EM environment.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: nievesoliveras on January 03, 2013, 09:02:58 PM

A couple of days back I drew this explanation from totoalas:

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on January 04, 2013, 03:17:54 AM

Ac neuground rf charger v3 04013 yt imtotob
Still cannot connect ou in my deskstop sorry about that
71V dc in 12 mins

Totoalas

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on January 04, 2013, 06:41:13 AM

ac neu ground rf charger v4 040113 yt imtotob
using various caps diodes

totoalas :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on January 04, 2013, 07:27:39 AM

Quote from: Groundloop on January 03, 2013, 04:22:42 PM
TK,

The actual soldering goes fast. What is taking time is to put the components onto the board.
So a robot arm putting the components onto the board, and then to the wave soldering station. :-)

Seriously, if I was loaded with money I could order a factory to solder my boards. I'm not, so
hand soldering is the only option.

>>You might need as many antennas and ground connections as you have modules, in order to get the full advertised power.

If collecting RF is your only theory regarding this circuit, then yes, many antennas etc. But I think it is more to this
circuit than just collecting RF. So I will try out a really large metal plate also. But as I said, this project will take time.
I will only find time to test the metal plate(s) next summer.

GL.

To test once it gets warm, you can go to a remote area free of most radio waves to see what effect it has on the receiver circuit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on January 04, 2013, 07:31:02 AM

Quote from: TinselKoala on January 03, 2013, 05:22:02 PM
I'd like to know other people's results from switching the ground and antenna hookups. Preliminary testing of my single module using 1n34a diodes seems to be telling me there's no difference.....

Tomorrow I'm going to erect a large metal plate (actually a roll of heavy duty aluminum foil) up in the attic. We have a metal roof, so that should be interesting..... Maybe I'll hook a wire to the roof itself, even though it's attached to the house, it's a huge area of sheetmetal....

And there is a huge difference in my mind between "overunity" performance and harvesting some of the energies that are constantly swirling around us.....
;)

Hello TK,

Sounds like some goods ideas to try but remember that most of the inventors/copiers recommend insulating the plate from touching the mounting as well as the plate itself.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on January 04, 2013, 07:34:57 AM

Quote from: totoalas on January 04, 2013, 03:17:54 AM
Ac neuground rf charger v3 04013 yt imtotob
Still cannot connect ou in my deskstop sorry about that
71V dc in 12 mins

Totoalas

@all

Something seems strange about this circuit to me. I'm very surprised at the output. Do you think that there is a energetic coupling happening between the AC neutral and the hot wire since they are side by side????

Any thoughts on this?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on January 04, 2013, 07:47:34 AM

hi
earth water pipenetwork
water in pipe from reservoir bodies of water

totoalas

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on January 04, 2013, 07:53:02 AM

@GL,

I just ordered the exact film caps that Jes used in his setup. I ordered these from mouser, P/N 80-R46KN3220JBM1K. Hopefully I can help the good cause soon. I need to get more germanium diodes. Can anyone suggest a cheap place to get some?

Jes's Parts (Approximate)

(2) film caps 220nf at 275
(2) Electrolytic caps 50v at 100uf
(4)1N34A germanium diodes
(1) Al plate 800-600mm (approx 2.5X3 feet) Nylon rope to hang in attic and insulated???
(1) brass bolt and (2) brass nuts

cant remember wire but it was a heavy gauge like 8
(2) Grounding rods deep(2-3 feet down) in moist ground

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on January 04, 2013, 08:02:24 AM

Just got 20 1N34A's for $17.90 from SpaElectronics.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on January 04, 2013, 09:12:24 AM

Quote from: stprue on January 04, 2013, 07:27:39 AM
To test once it gets warm, you can go to a remote area free of most radio waves to see what effect it has on the receiver circuit.

Stprue,

Yes, I will do that this summer. I work and live in south Norway, but each summer I go to
my house up in north Norway. Up there, there is little RF energy. It is also a long way from
radio links, TV links and cell phone transmitters.

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on January 04, 2013, 09:17:42 AM

Today I did build a small oscillator that I will connect to my APM2 module.
I will be a fun test to see what output I get from the APM2 module.

[EDIT1] I got 41 Volt out of the APM2 with no load on the APM2.
Connected one green LED, no light, just one blink in the LED.
Connected a 12 Volt 1,8 Watt LED lamp, two of the LEDs did light dimly.

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on January 04, 2013, 09:20:49 AM

Sounds like a perfect place to test and get some good relaxation.

Title: Imtotob video link
Post by: synchro1 on January 04, 2013, 09:54:09 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6ud3BPLb7o (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6ud3BPLb7o)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on January 04, 2013, 12:37:32 PM

Quote from: stprue on January 04, 2013, 08:02:24 AM
Just got 20 1N34A's for $17.90 from SpaElectronics.

0.45 each for 10 or more..... so 9 dollars for 20, plus shipping......
http://www.circuitspecialists.com/

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on January 04, 2013, 01:08:44 PM

@synchro: You might be interested in this.
I just made a video showing some work repeating some of Sohei Thoth's work with "wireless" (actually coreless) JT using Tesla bifilar coils as inductors. Very interesting stuff. Not super efficient but interesting nevertheless. I was amazed by how far apart I could place the two coils and still get brilliant light in the LED bank. Also the "enhanced" version using the 70 nF cap across the 2n2222a 1K base resistor produces much better performance and even greater separation distance.... and does not have the reduction in brightness with distance the way the "standard" basic JT without this cap behaves. The lights stay at full brightness until they finally shut off at the extreme separation distance of the coils of about 15 cm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilocTgUUIIY

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on January 04, 2013, 01:20:40 PM

Wow, that's a great site. good deals on DMM's too.

Good find TK.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: e2matrix on January 04, 2013, 01:40:51 PM

A quick look on eBay will find you a 100 pcs. of 1N34A for $10.05 including shipping, 50 pcs. for $6.69 so just around 10 cents each or a little more and those were just the first few I saw without digging for the possible best deals there. Of course it will take you a few weeks typically to get them but just saying the place TK mentioned is far from the low price. Otherwise a good place for bigger things it looks like.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on January 04, 2013, 02:13:01 PM

Even better. Don't have or want paypal though!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on January 04, 2013, 06:36:11 PM

A dime apiece is about right for those diodes.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on January 05, 2013, 02:01:58 AM

Will in60 work????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: jadaro2600 on January 05, 2013, 02:58:49 AM

I see this thread has grown quite extensive since I last posted anything...

I have been disassembling and recycling flat bed scanners and have acquired numerous 10 in CCFL bulbs in great shape. I am planning to construct a JTC to power them, since their starting voltages are around 600 to 1000 volts this should be interesting. The original circuitry is quite like JTC to begin with, some of which use on 20ma at 9-18V DC input, they're mostly based on inverter circuits. The interesting thing about these is their schematics contain a standard inverter circuit on the primary with a secondary isolated coil+CCFL+capacitor in series. I think this might be an interesting endeavor.

Some of my previous circuits are built like this.
I have recently acquired several antique and low voltage drop diodes I am planning on using. The idea is for it to power a lamp, and thus be powered by far-gone batteries so that the remaining chemical energy in the batteries can be utilized, and thus not wasted prior to it's trip to the recycling station.

I would also like to create one using FETS or JFETs if at all possible, as this would allow a low waste oscillation to occur between respective terminal. The utility involved would mean that the majority of energy is inductively transferred and radiated in the form of light.

I imagine the capacitor will dictate the effectiveness of this emission in that case. Since these CCFL bulbs are rated a 2 watts, it may be interesting to note their effectiveness when the input is say, < 5ma, at < 3V. That being said, I'm looking for the CCFL bulb's sweet spot.

If anyone has any experience using FETs rather than common NPN and PNP transistors, any input would be nice.

Also, despite their unconventional construction, I am wondering if anyone has attempted to create a JTC with a bitter electromagnetic core rather than a toroidal core.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on January 05, 2013, 03:06:05 AM

2 Yrs sgo ive tried scsnner lamps in my lab using same inverter direct 12v dc
With slayer jt it eill light upp but ordinary 10 w lamps are brighter to use

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: ltseung888 on January 05, 2013, 04:56:11 AM

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=1596.msg27120#msg27120 (http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=1596.msg27120#msg27120)

The Christmas Gift has reached South America. A group is playing with it and evaluating it for academic use.

It is also a powerful pulse charger. Some dead non-rechargeable AA batteries at below 0.3V came back to life at around 0.9V. At one instance, two dead batteries recharged themselves back from 0.4 to 0.8V but the same could not be repeated. In one instance, the rexharging went down from 0.8 to 0.6V.

May use the much more expensive rechargeable AA batteries to repeat the experiments.

JT in resonance mode should be explored further.....

Title: Re: Imtotob video link
Post by: totoalas on January 05, 2013, 05:42:16 AM

Quote from: synchro1 on January 04, 2013, 09:54:09 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6ud3BPLb7o (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6ud3BPLb7o)

Ising variant 4 ckt but using in60 and 100 mf 50v dc output without load is 20v dv

Using tate circuit im60 and 470mf 25vdc output is 7 v dc only

Title: Re: Imtotob video link
Post by: Groundloop on January 05, 2013, 06:57:13 AM

Quote from: totoalas on January 05, 2013, 05:42:16 AM
Ising variant 4 ckt but using in60 and 100 mf 50v dc output without load is 20v dv

Using tate circuit im60 and 470mf 25vdc output is 7 v dc only

Totoalas,

Can you try the attached circuit when you have the time?

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on January 05, 2013, 06:59:44 AM

K
apm variant by gl 050113 yt imtotob

the circuit output 14.2 v dc max in60 100uf 50 v

totoa;as :) :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on January 05, 2013, 07:44:47 AM

Quote from: totoalas on January 05, 2013, 06:59:44 AM
K
apm variant by gl 050113 yt imtotob

the circuit output 14.2 v dc max in60 100uf 50 v

totoa;as :) :)

Totoalas,

Thanks. :-)

Can you put one 1KOhm 1% metal film resistor over the output and measure the DC voltage over the resistor.
(No other load than the resistor on the output.)

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on January 05, 2013, 08:46:22 AM

Quote from: Groundloop on January 05, 2013, 07:44:47 AM
Totoalas,

Thanks. :-)

Can you put one 1KOhm 1% metal film resistor over the output and measure the DC voltage over the resistor.
(No other load than the resistor on the output.)

GL.

one 470 and one 560 ohms 5 watts in series on the output 0.85v dc
without load 13.77 v dc total r 1.030 kohms not metallic film
tnks

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on January 05, 2013, 09:00:01 AM

Quote from: totoalas on January 05, 2013, 08:46:22 AM
one 470 and one 560 ohms 5 watts in series on the output 0.85v dc
without load 13.77 v dc total r 1.030 kohms not metallic film
tnks

Totoalas,

Thanks. :-)

I = V / R = 0,85 / 1030 = 82,5mA
P = V * I = 0,85 * 82,5mA = 70 mW.

OK, so you have approx. 70mW available from the mains neutral and outside ground.
Do you still have that output if you switch off all mains circuit breakers?

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on January 05, 2013, 09:14:32 AM

thanks gl for the power computation

no output when source extension socket is on live amd neutral present
when extension socket is off there is an output neutral present live cut off
need to check next morming its evenimg when
main cb off in he house 2pst live and neutral in a rcd breaker

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on January 05, 2013, 09:23:06 AM

Quote from: totoalas on January 05, 2013, 09:14:32 AM
thanks gl for the power computation

no output when source extension socket is on live amd neutral present
when extension socket is off there is an output neutral present live cut off
need to check next morming its evenimg when
main cb off in he house 2pst live and neutral in a rcd breaker

Totoalas,

I'm not sure I did understand all of the above.
But, OK, I will wait until you can do the test.
Thanks for today testing. :-)

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on January 05, 2013, 09:35:48 AM

Quote from: Groundloop on January 05, 2013, 09:23:06 AM
Totoalas,

I'm not sure I did understand all of the above.
But, OK, I will wait until you can do the test.
Thanks for today testing. :-)

GL.

normal house extension socket i swap the live and neutral connectiom to have the ac neutral the isolation switch and fuse for my experiment
in the plug i did the same the neutral was connected to the fuse instead of the live wire
only one wire neutral is connected in the plug
so i can isolate theneutral anytime with protection at thesame timed

Title: Re: Imtotob video link
Post by: totoalas on January 05, 2013, 05:52:05 PM

Quote from: totoalas on January 05, 2013, 05:42:16 AM
Ising variant 4 ckt but using in60 and 100 mf 50v dc output without load is 20v dv output 0.45 v with 1030 ohms

Using tate circuit im60 and 470mf 25vdc output is 7 v dc only

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on January 05, 2013, 06:30:44 PM

Quote from: Groundloop on January 05, 2013, 09:00:01 AM
Totoalas,

Thanks. :-)

I = V / R = 0,85 / 1030 = 82,5mA
P = V * I = 0,85 * 82,5mA = 70 mW.

OK, so you have approx. 70mW available from the mains neutral and outside ground.
Do you still have that output if you switch off all mains circuit breakers?

GL.

No output sice live and neutral are cut off by an rcd dpst cb

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on January 05, 2013, 06:33:54 PM

Using my v4 circuit ac neuground
1 1000Mf 63 v and 1 470mf 63 v
Output to 1030 ohms is 0.45 v or 43 mwatt

Totoalas

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on January 05, 2013, 07:26:47 PM

Quote from: totoalas on January 05, 2013, 06:30:44 PM
No output sice live and neutral are cut off by an rcd dpst cb

Totoalas,

I'm a little confused. When you say mains neutral, do you really mean mains ground?

You mains has three lines: Live, Neutral and Ground. Live and Neutral is carrying the
230 Volt alternating current. Mains ground is the distributed grounding. And I assume
your circuit is connected between the mains ground and your water pipes ground.
Is this correct?

So when you pop your circuit breakers then only the Live and Neutral should be disconnected.
The distributed mains ground should still be present at the wrings. Is this correct?

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on January 05, 2013, 07:46:43 PM

Quote from: Groundloop on January 05, 2013, 07:26:47 PM
Totoalas,

I'm a little confused. When you say mains neutral, do you really mean mains ground?

You mains has three lines: Live, Neutral and Ground. Live and Neutral is carrying the
230 Volt alternating current. Mains ground is the distributed grounding. And I assume
your circuit is connected between the mains ground and your water pipes ground.
Is this correct?

So when you pop your circuit breakers then only the Live and Neutral should be disconnected.
The distributed mains ground should still be present at the wrings. Is this correct?

GL.

>>I'm a little confused. When you say mains neutral, do you really mean mains ground?
Mains neutral supplied by electric company.

>>And I assume your circuit is connected between the mains ground and your water pipes ground.
>>Is this correct?
Mains ground from electric company earth water pipe usually is separated or not connected as required by electric company.

>>So when you pop your circuit breakers then only the Live and Neutral should be disconnected.
Yes.

>>The distributed mains ground should still be present at the wrings. Is this correct?
Yes, but i disconnected my ground in the extension socket so only live and neutral is
present for 220 VAC source without grounding in my extension socket.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on January 05, 2013, 08:01:37 PM

They dont allow water pipe connections to be directly connected to mains groundin our 66kvtrasformer 3 phaze system they have neutral transfomer connected to earth buried

In our house live neutral ground water pipe i did not see any bond or earth wire to ground
All outlet have ground combined in one terminal block the neutral wires in one terminal block and single pole cb for each cicuit in the incoming mains

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on January 05, 2013, 08:58:46 PM

Quote from: totoalas on January 05, 2013, 08:01:37 PM
They dont allow water pipe connections to be directly connected to mains groundin our 66kvtrasformer 3 phaze system they have neutral transfomer connected to earth buried

In our house live neutral ground water pipe i did not see any bond or earth wire to ground
All outlet have ground combined in one terminal block the neutral wires in one terminal block and single pole cb for each cicuit in the incoming mains

Totoalas,

Can you make a simple drawing showing the wires all the way from the 66KV
utility transformer and to your circuit? I'm still very confused exactly where your
circuit is connected to what.

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: PARAV on January 05, 2013, 11:26:35 PM

Quote from: Groundloop on January 05, 2013, 08:58:46 PM
Totoalas,

Can you make a simple drawing showing the wires all the way from the 66KV
utility transformer and to your circuit? I'm still very confused exactly where your
circuit is connected to what.

GL.

Totoalas,
I agree with Groundloop---You have made many changes to the Tate circuit and so you've
lost me about 2 pages ago.---So, yes a simple circuit diagram of all your changes would be nice to clear things up a bit.
Thanks in advance--Paul

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on January 05, 2013, 11:48:13 PM

Tried to upload my sketch but evertime its error????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on January 05, 2013, 11:56:10 PM

Quote from: totoalas on January 05, 2013, 11:48:13 PM
Tried to upload my sketch but evertime its error????

T,

Email the drawing to me and I will upload it here.

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on January 05, 2013, 11:59:51 PM

Quote from: Groundloop on January 05, 2013, 11:56:10 PM
T,

Email the drawing to me and I will upload it here.

GL.

K
Will be home in 30 minutes

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on January 06, 2013, 12:04:29 AM

Quote from: totoalas on January 05, 2013, 11:59:51 PM
K
Will be home in 30 minutes

T,

OK, but sometimes the Yahoo mail is slow. I just got one mail from you today that you did email on Friday.
I will upload the drawing when I receive it. Has to go to bed now. Will be back later today.

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on January 06, 2013, 01:15:16 AM

attached is my house wiring for discussion on the latest circuit of gl

my v4 ckt was posted already

totoalas

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on January 06, 2013, 05:14:24 AM

ac neuground rf charger v4 060113 diagram

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on January 06, 2013, 05:44:42 AM

Quote from: totoalas on January 06, 2013, 05:14:24 AM
ac neuground rf charger v4 060113 diagram

Totoalas,

Can you re-upload the images in your two last posts?
The images is 0 Bytes, for some reason.

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on January 06, 2013, 05:54:51 AM

attachment reloaded

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on January 06, 2013, 06:00:29 AM

Quote from: totoalas on January 06, 2013, 05:54:51 AM
attachment reloaded

Totoalas,

I think I got it now. Your APM circuit is connected to one of the live wires (Neutral) and to your water pipe.

At the Neutral wire (it's a live mains wire) there is 110 VAC available. Normally when one connects something
between Neutral and Ground then the ground fault protection breaker should pop open circuit and switch
off the mains power. This has not happened in you case because what you believe to be a good grounding
in your water pipes is actually NOT a good grounding, but something closer to a current path with a resistance
of approximately 1571 Ohm. This apparent ground path will give you about 70mW of power out of your APM circuit.

You have been very lucky that your grounding is not the grounding you thought it was! Because if it was a real grounding,
then you would have blown up your APM circuit or even worse, made contact with your body and killed yourself.

I will recommend to you (and everybody else reading this) to never make a current path between the Live or Neutral wires
and ground. The ground fault protection system is there to protect you against faulty equipment and is designed to trip
(switch off the mains) if there is a current between Live or Neutral to ground.

I did assume that you did connect your APM circuit to the mains ground wire and then to your water pipes
so that the mains ground wire was some sort of antenna, to harvest power that way. I was wrong.

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on January 06, 2013, 06:16:03 AM

thanks gl
nice circuit
live to neutral 220 v ac live to ground Electric co 220 v ac
ac neutral to ground is 0 volts ac and water pipe to neutral. is zero ac
when neutral and ac ground or water pipe in contact the cb trips
we call the neutral zero current
TNS system is what i know used in this region
earth bonding in buildings are usually connected to earth copper rods directly to ground
water pipes are buried so they are physically earthed

britixh standard for earth leakage system are followed max 30 ma in rcd devices
totoalas

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on January 06, 2013, 06:24:16 AM

synchro quote on dr nakamatsu of japan who is using cosmic rays for his invention using pizza sized plates stacked in a water heater sized capa citor?????
totoalas

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on January 06, 2013, 06:47:05 AM

Quote from: totoalas on January 06, 2013, 06:16:03 AM
thanks gl
nice circuit
live to neutral 220 v ac live to ground Electric co 220 v ac
ac neutral to ground is 0 volts ac and water pipe to neutral. is zero ac
when neutral and ac ground or water pipe in contact the cb trips
we call the neutral zero current
TNS system is what i know used in this region
earth bonding in buildings are usually connected to earth copper rods directly to ground
water pipes are buried so they are physically earthed

britixh standard for earth leakage system are followed max 30 ma in rcd devices
totoalas

Totoalas,

OK, I checked this web site https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthing_system and the TN-S system has
the neutral connected to earth ground at the utility transformer (or generator). So in a TN-S system one
should expect that the AC voltage difference between the neutral and the distributed ground should
be 0 volt. But all wires has resistance. So at your end there is a voltage difference between neutral
and local ground. My main confusion was there because here in Norway we use local ground and
there is always half the mains voltage between the neutral or live wire to local ground. I think there
is only two countries in the world that uses local ground, Norway and Albania. :-)

Only one question remains, do you think that your APM circuit will go dim when there is a power outage
in your town? Or do you think that the AMP still will get power from the neutral wire and local ground if
there is a power outage? I guess we will have to wait until such a event happen to be sure.

GL.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on January 06, 2013, 07:17:05 AM

that clears everything on earthing lol
no electromagnetic or magnetic flux when no power so basically its dependentthis cicuit is for daily pra tical application in an urban household
but if we utilize your circuit to use the ac wires as antenna will be great
wifi wireless power harness or collection using previois post for wifi diodes will likely bring us near tesla power lol
maybe i will try electric cpmpany earth ground for a few more test without using neutral

thanks again
totoalas :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on January 06, 2013, 08:22:43 AM

Quote from: Groundloop on January 06, 2013, 06:00:29 AM
Totoalas,

I think I got it now. Your APM circuit is connected to one of the live wires (Neutral) and to your water pipe.

At the Neutral wire (it's a live mains wire) there is 110 VAC available. Normally when one connects something
between Neutral and Ground then the ground fault protection breaker should pop open circuit and switch
off the mains power. This has not happened in you case because what you believe to be a good grounding
in your water pipes is actually NOT a good grounding, but something closer to a current path with a resistance
of approximately 1571 Ohm. This apparent ground path will give you about 70mW of power out of your APM circuit.

You have been very lucky that your grounding is not the grounding you thought it was! Because if it was a real grounding,
then you would have blown up your APM circuit or even worse, made contact with your body and killed yourself.

I will recommend to you (and everybody else reading this) to never make a current path between the Live or Neutral wires
and ground. The ground fault protection system is there to protect you against faulty equipment and is designed to trip
(switch off the mains) if there is a current between Live or Neutral to ground.

I did assume that you did connect your APM circuit to the mains ground wire and then to your water pipes
so that the mains ground wire was some sort of antenna, to harvest power that way. I was wrong.

GL.

I completely agree with this and have posted similar suspicions in another topic that this crt was in.

Title: Re: Imtotob video link
Post by: totoalas on January 06, 2013, 07:35:24 PM

Quote from: Groundloop on January 05, 2013, 06:57:13 AM
Totoalas,

Can you try the attached circuit when you have the time?

GL.

Using gl latest circuit ac neutral plus water tap no load voltsge is 2.6 v dc

Using mains ground snd water tap is zero v dc

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on January 07, 2013, 09:41:59 AM

Totoalas:
I have used this type of capacitive current/voltage source that is coming from the AC grounds. But, that source is useless when the AC power is out. As there is no stray capacitive link to do anything with. You will not save much by doing this, in my opinion.

I am harvesting 110 volts from the house telephone connection, and converting that to DC. using AC/DC adapters. The telephone company will always keep that going, even in emergencies, and power outages. As they will then run back-up generators. I would not think twice to use that source in an emergency situation.

NickZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on January 07, 2013, 10:16:47 AM

Quote from: NickZ on January 07, 2013, 09:41:59 AM
Totoalas:
I have used this type of capacitive current/voltage source that is coming from the AC grounds. But, that source is useless when the AC power is out. As there is no stray capacitive link to do anything with. You will not save much by doing this, in my opinion.

I am harvesting 110 volts from the house telephone connection, and converting that to DC. using AC/DC adapters. The telephone company will always keep that going, even in emergencies, and power outages. As they will then run back-up generators. I would not think twice to use that source in an emergency situation.
I totally agree ...as with telephone power supply we now used mobile phones
To make use of available resources in plce of antenna
Apm2 is o.169mw with ac neutral is 70mw
Until we have what aviso is using now will be better
If we can amplify this is just a matter of time
Jt gurus were still waiting
Totoalas

NickZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 08, 2013, 01:09:23 AM

Quote from: NickZ on January 07, 2013, 09:41:59 AM
Totoalas:
I have used this type of capacitive current/voltage source that is coming from the AC grounds. But, that source is useless when the AC power is out. As there is no stray capacitive link to do anything with. You will not save much by doing this, in my opinion.

I am harvesting 110 volts from the house telephone connection, and converting that to DC. using AC/DC adapters. The telephone company will always keep that going, even in emergencies, and power outages. As they will then run back-up generators. I would not think twice to use that source in an emergency situation.

NickZ

Nick:

Funny you should mention this....I have just tested my phone jack (I have no house phone, just cell) and i got 70 volts DC. Not much power but, I'll bet a decent JT circuit could run a bunch of stuff from that.

The only drawback i see online is that if, you draw too much, the phone company computers see that as an "off hook" situation and cut the power to the line. Within reason, i think there is a lot that can be done here. It is free and available during power outages. What more could we ask for?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on January 08, 2013, 01:27:29 AM

I workef in a tel co way nak in 86. And they know this also... They reduce the size of fuse to eliminate illegal extension and lifetime ban if caught..

One line man need to connect the ground but its all concrete in the house so he put it in the flower pot the owner complained that his tel is not working if he dont water the plant lol

another lineman because of laziness put the ground to the chain around the the dog collar
the dog barks whenever the telephone rings

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Lakes on January 08, 2013, 05:34:54 AM

Quote from: totoalas on January 08, 2013, 01:27:29 AM
I workef in a tel co way nak in 86. And they know this also... They reduce the size of fuse to eliminate illegal extension and lifetime ban if caught..

One line man need to connect the ground but its all concrete in the house so he put it in the flower pot the owner complained that his tel is not working if he dont water the plant lol

another lineman because of laziness put the ground to the chain around the the dog collar
the dog barks whenever the telephone rings

LOL!!(I really did laugh out loud at that!) :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: b_rads on January 08, 2013, 12:02:23 PM

Quote from: totoalas on January 08, 2013, 01:27:29 AM
I workef in a tel co way nak in 86. And they know this also... They reduce the size of fuse to eliminate illegal extension and lifetime ban if caught..

One line man need to connect the ground but its all concrete in the house so he put it in the flower pot the owner complained that his tel is not working if he dont water the plant lol

another lineman because of laziness put the ground to the chain around the the dog collar
the dog barks whenever the telephone rings

OMG - ROFL :o
Feel so sorry for the dog - hope there were no teenagers living there.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on January 08, 2013, 01:24:27 PM

Bill:
The telephone line here gives about 115 volts on AC, and only half that on DC. And you are right, that that source although restricted in current output, can still run and charge cell phones, Ipods, tablets, and of course batteries, and oscillators. It is best to use that source only if your regular phone line is not working, (like due to lack of payment). But, it may also work while the phone is on, although I personally have not tried that. It will certainly light one of the 110v low wattage Led bulbs, when running off of a simple oscillator/inverter like Lasersaber's 3.0 circuit.

@ Totoalas: Now I know why my dog has been barking so much, lately....
Maybe I should go back to using solar??? Ha!

NickZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on January 08, 2013, 04:49:01 PM

Hi Nickz,
Those were the days of the TIp and Ring Analog telephones ( black ones ) ... so next time time your dog barks you know what to do hehehehhh
Its 50 v dc that they are using here in the Philippines....
The APM can be connected to one line and water tap and still be used.....
The new version of Sharkmongrel High voltage Joule thief seems to take over the primary source for tesla........ as for the secondary coil
How to transfer that arc is one thing and convert to usable power is another
He did not say how many amps he is using in the input.... He only mentioned .. jacobs ladder will not work due to low amps
totoalas

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Masud on January 17, 2013, 06:00:21 AM

Well I'm gonna try, if I success, :-* :-* :-* :-* to you, to be honest, this will be the most valuable circuit in my life,

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: drodenbe on January 21, 2013, 09:54:18 AM

Hi everyone!

?????????

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on January 21, 2013, 11:17:27 AM

Quote from: drodenbe on January 21, 2013, 09:54:18 AM
So here is my schematic and notes of a self runner I have been running and charging batteries for the past 3 days and the battery went from just a little over one volt to 1.2589 approx. It has run a jumbo led and charged several 1.2 ni cad batteries. I have charged two 1.2 ni cads in series also. Both run and chg. Batteries charge at same time. The circuit is repeatable. My Eng. friend who also has been working on similar projects for the last 4 years has also built the circuit with similar results. So it isn't a fluke. So have fun and play. Note. I will answer some questions but I am not going to do videos and make a bunch of noise as others have and end up as they have.

@drodenbe: you have to do more careful measurements. Three days is a very short time for a well designed Joule Thief.

I attach a Joule Thief circuit that runs at least 3 months on a "used" 1.5 Volt battery. By "used" I mean that it shows about 1 Volt when it's Voltage is tested with a multimeter at the start of that at least 3 months run time.

Greetings, Conrad

P.S.: I found this variant of the Joule Thief circuit somewhere in this threat some years ago. There are an incredible number of variations in this thread, you just have to take the time to wade through the pages. Every now and then someone claims to have an OU-Joule Thief. So far it was measurement errors. It is not easy to measure the tiny Wattages involved over a long time (months).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: drodenbe on January 21, 2013, 12:37:09 PM

conradelektro

Thanks for the info. If you look closer you will see the difference between yours and mine. The battery is the core of the coil. The coil is not wound on a standard core as the others. The battery has to be inside the coil. Also notice I did not claim OU. Also if you will notice I stated that in that time I ran a jumbo Led and charged several batteries from .6 volts to 2.4 volts being the batteries were in series. I think that the fact that I was doing work and not just running the oscillator speaks for its self. My equipment reads 5 places to the right of the decimal. There fore I don' have to wait a month to see if my voltage is going up or down! As I said I am not going to make a bunch of noise. I just thought I would share some of my 40 years experience as an Eng. So Thanks for the info again, Now I will go back to sleep! Thought It would be a mistake and my fellow Engineering friends were right.

Signed: never to trod this road again.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on January 21, 2013, 12:55:46 PM

Hello drodenbe, (http://www.overunity.com/profile/drodenbe.28602/)

I noticed that your coil was wound on your source battery. Very interesting and I have had this idea before but never tried it. If you have a 10F radial supercap could you test your setup on this? I would be very interested to see if a supercap, which has much less energy density could run this crt and charge batteries while lighting an LED. This would further demonstrate the uniqueness of your crt.

Great work!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: drodenbe on January 21, 2013, 01:35:56 PM

Hello stprue

wow! Really nice to see some one really looked at my schematic and paid attention to detail. Yes I also had this in mind. I just happen to have several supercaps in my inventory. I have a 2700f at 16.2 volts and 10f at 24 volts. I am retired and usually have 4 or five FE projects going at the same time. So yes I will set that up today as we speak. I will know very quickly if it works or not. As I said, I can read 5 places to the right of the decimal so it tells you very quickly what is happening. I bit the bullet and bought a lab quality HP voltmeter. I have been building these circuits some 6 years and got real tired waiting days to see if I was going in the right direction. So I can, do better measurements! Been down this road too many times. I have many very pretty circuits and designs that don't work! Thinking about making a museum to demonstrate what not to do! I will get back to you on this in a few days. Would not want to rush things and get some incorrect readings as you know! ;D Ps. Decided to wake back up and answer questions with people interested in building and testing new ideas and not just commenting on others work b4 they them selves have tested the idea. Sometimes things are not what they seam! Thanks!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on January 21, 2013, 01:44:28 PM

Quote from: drodenbe on January 21, 2013, 12:37:09 PM
conradelektro

Thanks for the info. If you look closer you will see the difference between yours and mine. The battery is the core of the coil. The coil is not wound on a standard core as the others. The battery has to be inside the coil. Also notice I did not claim OU. Also if you will notice I stated that in that time I ran a jumbo Led and charged several batteries from .6 volts to 2.4 volts being the batteries were in series. I think that the fact that I was doing work and not just running the oscillator speaks for its self. My equipment reads 5 places to the right of the decimal. There fore I don' have to wait a month to see if my voltage is going up or down! As I said I am not going to make a bunch of noise. I just thought I would share some of my 40 years experience as an Eng. So Thanks for the info again, Now I will go back to sleep! Thought It would be a mistake and my fellow Engineering friends were right.

Signed: never to trod this road again.

@drodenbe: Why are you so angry? You made extraordinary claims. Extraordinary claims cause scepticism.

In case there is some value in your claims you could give as some more proof and some help to facilitate replication. Photos of your set up would be helpful too.

People should be able to replicate your circuit and you should be prepared to answer questions and to sustain some criticism and doubt.

Then may be, you get the attention you seem to want.

So, do you want to see people replicate your claims or do you want to keep a secret?

Greetings, Conrad

P.S.: I did not say, that the circuit I showed is the same as yours. My point was, that careful measurements are necessary. Many digits after the decimal point are not helpful in case one measures at the wrong place.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gyulasun on January 21, 2013, 01:47:45 PM

Hi Drodenbe,

Unfortunately I came late and by that time you deleted the schematic. I would like to see it if you do not mind. Could you upload it again? I always like to learn.

Thanks
Gyula

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on January 21, 2013, 01:53:12 PM

Great, I look forward to your results!

Those are some massive caps. I have a 2700F, but only at 2.5v. Electronic Goldmine had a sale at one point and they were charging something like 10$ US per cap. I too need to get a better meter and was actually looking today, but even a lower end agilent cost a couple hundred dollars. I just dont have the funds for that right now. Anyway, have fun testing!

P.S. Re-posting your schematic will assist those wanting to replicate. There are many skilled builders here that can be very helpful and there are those that are not. You must deal with both at this forum.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: drodenbe on January 21, 2013, 03:52:09 PM

Every one. I apologize if we got a bad start. I agree about the skepticism. I will address your question on the angry bit. I have been in this field since I was twelve. Had my ham radio license at that time and then my 1st class radio telephone license then several tech schools then collage and my BSEE. Not saying all this as to gloat but just to let you know some back ground. You came across to me as I was a young man just entering the field and you were putting your arm around me and going take me under your wing. :) I have built a great many circuits from youtube and the like only, to find no success. I have watched over the years many people from Eng. and Professors share there work only to have it tore down and ridiculed to the point that they quit and go back to there research. So I thought at first that I was going to be in the same boat so I was a little jumpy so to speak. Again I Apologize to all. Now that I hope I have redeemed my self I will start over and I do welcome criticism. Just needed to know how it was being given if you can understand. I do know about measurements and not to jump to conclusions. Many times I have come out of the lab with a smile on my face and a rooster strut only to come back in the morning to see my experiments failed and back to the drawing board. Forgive me if I came across wrong. As I said earlier Myself and my Friend who is also a retired Eng. from a different company have been working on a free runner for a long time and I may have been more excited about the find than I should have been. I am sure if you are like me, There is absolutely no one or very few people that understands what I am saying when I speak of inductive reactance, impedance etc. They just look at you and think your nuts! So!!! I hope this helps and would like to start over!!

In starting over I want to say this. I posted my findings with the hopes that others would build this up and see if thy could make it better or offer some input. I don't know everything and I will be the first to tell you this. Also I have found that in the field of Free Energy you can take the degrees and use it in the bathroom for something useful. Most of what I have learned in this field has been hard because the education gets in the way. I have a Friend that has two Eng. degrees one in chemical and one in Electrical and he does not believe in this stuff and if I want to get a good flagellation verbally then all I have to do is mention what I am doing. He will be at my door with his own equipment and insist on making his own measurements. I have got him several times because he says that this is not possible and cant believe what he is seeing. Me either.

Ok I am re-posting my work It is just something I threw together from my notes. So in the next few days I will post pictures and more data. I will also do the supercap test. I need to make a new coil at the proper impedance to fit the cap. It is rather large. It is a 4700f at 2.7volts. I will include data, pictures and schematics. I hope someone else will build this.

Also I might add that before I posted I got conformation from my friend that his circuit was also working as mine. So it looks like it is repeatable. Time will tell. We have a skype lab meeting every day to compare work and pass prints, data, and pcb artwork back and forth. We usually try to work on different projects so we don't do redundant work. If we find something we each build the project to see if it is repeatable or if we should put it on the shelf of pretty things that don.t work! :)

well I have rambled on enough and so lets build some stuff!!! :) :) :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: drodenbe on January 21, 2013, 04:14:12 PM

Hello stprue

I bought my caps from ebay. They are a package of 7 2700f at 2.7 volts. They were taken out of service as I understand it from semi trucks used as battery backup cold start units. They sold for $149.00 plus shipping. I looked around for several weeks trying to find something cheaper. I too know about funds as I am retired. No $30.00 an hour anymore! Have just enough to pay bills and a little left over for my hobby. Which ain't cheap! This looked to me to be the best deal. Maybe some has come up with a better price since. I have had them for a few months. I took one cap out of the bunch and installed the rest with voltage taps in a nice Cabinet. I fused the taps for 15 amps each. This thing takes over 60 amps to charge if you put 12 volts directly across it at 0 charge. I used my 80 amp battery eliminator/charger to get the first charge. Then a smaller charger will top off when needed. The other single cap I use for the joule thief projects. This is the one I will wind the coil for! Ps you can get 10f at 2.7 volts at Digi-key. The number is 589-1002-ND. They are 3.068 if you buy 10. I bought 10 and put 5 in series to make a 13.5 volt super test cap for the bench. I put two on one board with terminals. If I need 24 volts I just series them. Works great.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on January 21, 2013, 05:00:32 PM

@drodenbe: thank you for forgiving my high handed approach. Your claim sounds so far out, that I though you are one of the people who do not know how to measure a dynamic circuit reliably.

I do not have any credentials in electronics besides the fact, that I built many Joule Thief type circuits and some pulse motors I encountered in this and other similar forums. Look at what I have posted (the pictures will suffice) and you will see, that I do not lack enthusiasm. And I also try to measure carefully as I learned from people who know better than me. Well, I am retired and do this as a hobby.

I will start replicating your circuit tomorrow (since it is now almost 23:00 where I live).

My plan is to make a cardboard tube with a length and diameter which allows to slide an AA battery or recharge type (of similar size) into it like a core. On this coil form I will wind the three coils you specified. The enamelled copper wire I intend to use is 0.22 mm (AWG 24), I also have 0.35 mm and 0.5 mm (AWG 22 and 21). AWG 19 (0.75 mm) seems to be rather thick?

I got some 2N3904 transistors (and also the other two transistors you mention in your drawing) and should have similar capacitors and resistors or potentiometers (but have to check). I have no Jumbo LED, but an ordinary LED should suffice.

My questions:

A) Do I wind the coils one on top of the other (in which order)?

B) Or do I wind one next to the other (three in a row, each taking up about a third of the length)?

C) Is it essential to use AWG 19 wire for the coils (0.75 mm ), or would thinner wire work as well?

C) Did you use a AA battery (the throw away type) or a rechargeable battery of size AA?

Remarks:

Your note at the bottom left corner of your circuit drawing sounds like you have wound the coils on top of each other.

I see the word "Nicad" and an arrow to the battery in your drawing? I guess that means nickel–cadmium rechargeable battery?

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: drodenbe on January 21, 2013, 05:17:03 PM

Hello,

Here is some preliminary pictures of board and bench shots. I will have to hook up my pc based scope to get the scope shots. They will be coming. Need to start on my coil for super cap. Much delayed getting data ready.

Let me explain about the board. Since I am constantly changing something in my designs I started to make what I call universal test boards. Where most of the components I want to quickly change I can do so with the terminals and not permanently soldered to board. That is saved for final design. So this board was made to mary a joule thief circuit with Larskro's the amazing circuit. I have had success with this design lighting 200 Led at one time without changing the Load current much. So I just used this board and moved the secondary coil wire over to the far right terminal connecting it to the collector circuit. This way I don't have to make so many boards. I just mount the parts I want to use at the time. Notice the two pots. One on board and one on the terminals. You can use which ever one you want. But only one at a time. Some times I have pots on hand that I know I wont have to change. If I think I will be changing values I use the external hookup. Can also replace with carbon resistor if you don't need the pot. I don't use the diode plug either. That was for another project. I put a two pin mini plug in place of the LED that way I can remove it if I don't want it in the circuit. I show 3 options in the schematic. One you hook a single 1.2 volt nicad across the 125t coil with diode and adjust frequency so both batteries charge at the same time there is a sweet spot. Depends on what state your charge battery is in. you will notice the frequency will change as charge battery charges and also depending on run battery voltage. both will change the op. freq. I noticed that I only loose a couple thousandths of a volt if run battery is fully charged when charging load battery. When the charge is complete the run battery tops its self off at around 2.5679 or so depending on your battery. so this is what I have and where I am at for this moment. See what you guys come up with.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: drodenbe on January 21, 2013, 05:18:47 PM

bench shots

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: drodenbe on January 21, 2013, 05:19:44 PM

bench shot

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on January 21, 2013, 05:30:30 PM

Just a side note
Tesla tronix Makej101 and Sharkmongrel have level up the Slayer JT circuit to a Slayer Tesla with great results
totoalas :) :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: drodenbe on January 21, 2013, 05:41:22 PM

conradelektro

for my prototype I just took a rechargeable battery AA and glued two insulated washers on each end of the battery with a hole in each to allow for the soldered wires to pass through. I found that if you get some double sided carped tape the wide kind found at your home improvement store of your choice, works well to hold the wires in place while winding. I just put a layer over the battery and started winding from one end to other. I wound ccw the 125t coil first wound all the way down then put another layer of double sided tape on and wound about half way back. Then filled in with the rest of the space with the 50t coil wound cw. Just happens that with the size wire I used it just came out that way. I then put on another layer of double sided tape and wound the 250t coil. with tape in between layers. If you have ever got a coil almost wound to drop the thing and loose all you work then the tape solves this problem.. Also If your like me I have to take a bathroom break right in the middle of the process. I just put it on the bench and come back and take up where I left off. I think the cardboard tube is fine. I just made my second coil as such. Like any thing else I have tried I really did not expect any better results that I have seen in the past. Sometimes even a blind pig finds an acorn now and then! so there wasn't much high tech math used. I did how ever noted the impedance of each coil on my original and I try to get close to those values with my next design. If you can't read my values let me know and I will post them.. Like I said I just threw this together from my notes. Also I originally was going to use the 125t coil as my secondary and the 250t as the output. It does work but the output peak to peak value was better with the 250t as the secondary. What you are trying to do is bombard the battery with radiant energy which causes the some of the electrons to be freed up. Similar to the moray valve and what kapanadze is doing to some extent only with different approach.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: drodenbe on January 22, 2013, 06:22:49 AM

Good morning everyone!

will make this short. Have to give attention to some other experiments going on.

Hooked up 2700F 2.5 volt super cap to charge last night. run bat was at 1.2182 volts ending with 2.2239 volts. Super cap start voltage 2.1243 volts ending with 2.1314 so looks like it will charge the super cap while charging run bat. I will set up other experiment today for the super cap to run the joule thief and charge its self and charge another battery at the same time. Have to make a coil form and coil at correct impedance to fit dimensions of super cap which is 6 inches long and 2.5 inches dia.

conradelektro :

you mention you have made some pulse motors. I know this is a joule thief forum but this is sort of a joule thief if you think about the circuit. But try using two 2.5 inch toroids and cut a 3/4 inch slot in both of them and wind a bifilar coil on both. make a rotor with n-s s-n magnets and place the two toroids so one is on the n-s magnets and the other the s-n and you will have a kromry device that will produce a substantial voltage output and you can load the output and the rpm will increase rather than decrease. Mine runs at 6000 rpm+ used a bedini circuit. one toroid the motor and the other the generator. you can install more generators to increase output. Well this is for another group. sorry for straying off!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: drodenbe on January 22, 2013, 09:12:14 AM

This is the new coil on super cap. First layer 112 turns cw #19 second and third layer 224 turns cw #19 third layer 50 turns ccw #19 wire. Will start testing today.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on January 22, 2013, 09:44:56 AM

@drodenbe

Thank you for the great photos and I admire your nice lab equipment. I like your winding over the super capacitor. I have big electrolytic capacitors and will try a winding over one of them.

Attached see photos of the coil I made today. It took me about 4 hours. Tomorrow I can do the first tests (have to do some chores now).

Greetings, Conrad

P.S.: Once I have tested your Joule Thief. I will start a thread for the pulse motor you mentioned. At the moment I want to replicate your Joule Thief results.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: drodenbe on January 22, 2013, 11:01:22 AM

conradelektro

nice job on the coil. It is great to see how someone else may do a job differently. Get some great ideas. Like (why didn't think of that?)

I have tested the super cap Idea and so far it is a flop and could have a place in my looks nice but don't work pile.

I have since gone back to my original coil and it will run the circuit and charge its self but not another battery on the chg winding. I noticed this the other day and seamed to have something do do with the time of day! Don't know. Seams goofy but I have seen something like this before in other projects using radiant energy. Will let run and see if it will do better on charging secondary battery later tonight. Was working this morning early. I start my day at 3:00 am so was ok then before I disconnected. If it starts working I will momentarily hook up super cap coil to see if there is any change. My friend said this morning that his was doing some things it didn't do last night. He starts at around 9:00 am so I am not sure if it is the time of day, when that problem starts. Will keep an eye on results and time of day.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on January 22, 2013, 11:39:26 AM

EWay back in 2011, I tested a slayer coil 25 by 100 mm 26 awg and 9 t 23 awg on the primary and just placed it on top of the car battery 12 v 70ah I will discharge the battery up to 12.4 and leave the coil connected the whole night with it energized and with one 10 w lamp load
the next morning my battery read 12.95 ..... and did it for 5 days and same result.......
no other load is connected or used for this battery ( 2 years old )
in the energetic forum. I remeber also if its Xee2 or somebody else placed a plate at the sides of the battery without any connection and there was voltage reading on it
you can try also re emf by rene on batteries
totoalas :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on January 22, 2013, 11:47:56 AM

To take only voltage reading on these types of tests is only part of it. The current levels are really the ones that will show the batteries draining, or charging levels.
A car battery can read 12v, and not start the car, so current readings are needed as well.

Totoalas: so you are saying that with the circuit connected to the car battery, it ran the 10w bulb all night for 5 nights, and the car battery did not get dis-charged, but was charged up, slightly instead? How come you are not using that system now, if it worked so well for you?
Any pictures or videos of that set up? Sounds like it's right up my ally...

Nick_Z

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on January 22, 2013, 12:48:23 PM

Quote from: NickZ on January 22, 2013, 11:47:56 AM
To take only voltage reading on these types of tests is only part of it. The current levels are really the ones that will show the batteries draining, or charging levels.
A car battery can read 12v, and not start the car, so current readings are needed as well.

Totoalas: so you are saying that with the circuit connected to the car battery, it ran the 10w bulb all night for 5 nights, and the car battery did not get dis-charged, but was charged up, slightly instead? How come you are not using that system now, if it worked so well for you?
Any pictures or videos of that set up? Sounds like it's right up my ally...

Nick_Z

hI NICKZ
I stopped the tests as it was a fluppy charge or just a chemical reaction taking place ......there was a discussion on the EF slayer thread and I think somebody commented on this also that it may be the night time cycle .....
I ll check again in the thread
totoalas
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/4999-joulethief-sec-exciter-variants-30.html#post105249 (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/4999-joulethief-sec-exciter-variants-30.html#post105249)
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/4999-joulethief-sec-exciter-variants-29.html#post104997 (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/4999-joulethief-sec-exciter-variants-29.html#post104997)
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/4999-joulethief-sec-exciter-variants-29.html#post104740 (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/4999-joulethief-sec-exciter-variants-29.html#post104740)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on January 22, 2013, 01:27:46 PM

Quote from: drodenbe on January 22, 2013, 11:01:22 AM
conradelektro

nice job on the coil. It is great to see how someone else may do a job differently. Get some great ideas. Like (why didn't think of that?)

I have tested the super cap Idea and so far it is a flop and could have a place in my looks nice but don't work pile.

I have since gone back to my original coil and it will run the circuit and charge its self but not another battery on the chg winding. I noticed this the other day and seamed to have something do do with the time of day! Don't know. Seams goofy but I have seen something like this before in other projects using radiant energy. Will let run and see if it will do better on charging secondary battery later tonight. Was working this morning early. I start my day at 3:00 am so was ok then before I disconnected. If it starts working I will momentarily hook up super cap coil to see if there is any change. My friend said this morning that his was doing some things it didn't do last night. He starts at around 9:00 am so I am not sure if it is the time of day, when that problem starts. Will keep an eye on results and time of day.

I had hopes for the supercap, so I will keep my fingers crossed. This particular design (with the battery may still be a success) but just may only work with a battery. It probably has to do with the size, energy density and that fact it makes energy by chemical reaction. Time of day can also have an effect as you mentioned for the typical reasons, i.e. temperature, stray radio frequencies etc. My only other suggestion might be to try a dry cell battery, if you event want to.

P.S. You work quick :D good job.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: drodenbe on January 22, 2013, 03:33:20 PM

stprue

Thanks. I work fast because I don't have to go to a job for 8-12 hrs per day! :) that makes a big difference.

I am still running the first coil and it is 3:20pm and both batteries have settled down. My run bat is setting at a charged value and the charge bat started to charge but real slow like one 1 thousandth of a volt per minute. I have not tweaked the pot because I was building another project while this one did its thing. Will hook up the super cap later tonight but I don't have much feeling for success. I believe also it must have to do with the chemical reaction.. Will let you know.

I saw a video by whoopie may be mispelled but he had a kacher circuit hooked up and had a coil around a 12ah lead acid battery and charging it. I set up his experiment but had no success that is why I was surprised that this one worked. I don't really think it is that great but at least it is something. I was wondering if anyone ever learned what the guy with the ali coil was doing. He claimed in his video he was charging a cap that it was running on. Never found much else from him but him gloating on his videos and not sharing any info. I may be wrong. He may have coughed it up and I just didn't find it. If any one has something about it worth sharing I would be grateful.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: drodenbe on January 22, 2013, 03:43:28 PM

one other thing I forgot to mention. FYI. You might try looking at Fair radio Sales Company. www.fairradio.com. This is where I picked up the HP volt meter. I got it for 150.00 I believe. Had to fix it though. Just a small filter cap. They are built very well. It has saved me a lot of time setting around wondering when that second digit is going to change and which direction. With this thing I can tell with in a few seconds if I am charging or discharging. That way If it don't work at all I can put it on the shelf faster with the other pretty things that don't work. :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: stprue on January 23, 2013, 07:38:22 AM

Great, thank you very much for the link!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on January 23, 2013, 01:45:28 PM

First experiment with drodenbe's JT circuit:

I attach the circuit as I replicated it and a photo of the test which is running since two hours. I already see a small voltage drop over battery (NiCad AA sized rechargeable accumulator, 1200 mAh), but it is better two wait 24 hours to see it more clearly.

My replication has a few minor differences to drodenbe's original:

- 220 µF (instead of 270 µF)
- 0.44 µF (instead of 0.47 µF), I also tried 0.54 µF and I did not see any effect
- 100 Ohm and 25 K potentiometer at the base of the transistor (instead of 27 ohm and 20 K pot).

The big difference is the coil: I used 0.315 mm enamelled wire (and not 0.75 mm as drodenbe), see my Reply #16085above.

One worrying fact is that I do not get anything useful out of the third coil, so I leave it open.

An other strange feature: no matter how I connect the coils (in and out reversed), the LED always lights up. But one particular way makes the LED light brighter (and I use now this direction of connecting the coils; there are four possible ways.) But whichever way I choose, there is almost nothing coming out of the third coil (the one with 130 turns).

I measured the power consumption with a 1 Ohm shunt as indicated by the red arrow in the circuit drawing. I can vary the 25 K pot between a consumption of almost 20 mA (only the 100 Ohm are left at the base of the transistor) and less than 2 mA (about 25 K at the base, in parallel to the 0.44 µF capacitor).

I set the 25 K potentiometer so that the power consumption is about 3 mA. 3 mA seems to be reasonably low (about 18 K at the base).

The circuit seems to swing at about 230 KHz.

Further planned tests:

1) up to 100 K at the base to reduce the power consumption as low as possible (may be 800 µA, the LED just glows).

2) insertion of the NiCad AA the other way round into the coil.

@drodenbe: do you have any suggestions how I should change the circuit? Do you see any errors I made?

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: drodenbe on January 23, 2013, 02:09:08 PM

hello conradelektro

I find that strange that you don't get anything from the 125t coil. One thing I would do is to put a 2.2 k resistor in series with the led or take it out all together until you get working at least that way. I have a digital power supply to first measure my current draw before I use a battery and I noticed that I did not get any reading on the digital meter in the ma position. I usually install a 1 ohm resistor in my boards to measure the current but didn't in this case. I noticed that if you are not using a 10 -20 turn pot I don't think you will find the sweat spot. I know I used a standard pot when I first ran the circuit and kept going right by where it needed to be. The adjustments with the 20 turn pot when you approach the sweat spot is only very fine tweaking like only 1 degree or less. I still have mine running and I noticed that the time of day does make a difference. It did not start working again correctly until after 4:00 pm my time. Did you look at the wave form with a scope on the 125t coil. I got a good strong signal. I also put a diode on one end of the winding and brought that back to the positive battery lead then connected the other end to earth ground. That improved the process even though it was working b4 I did that. I have always been able to adjust the pot so I could at least charge the run battery but depending on the time of day seam to determine if my charge battery would charge or just set there with the same voltage.

I don't want to change the subject or drift off of it completely but I did while I was letting the circuit run, hooked up one of my kacher circuits with a kacher coil with 182 turns of 28g wire and 10t 19g wire the form is 5 inches long and 4.5 inches in diameter I put 4 nicad batteries in series to run the circuit and put it inside the coil and it was pulling 18-20ma at 5.3volts and charged up the batteries to 5.4125 volts and holding steady. I am also running 3 led's in series through a diode plug. But this is for a different group. I just wanted to mention this because what ever is going on in the joule thief circuit all so happens in the kacher but only better.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: drodenbe on January 23, 2013, 02:20:33 PM

one last thing You guys are probably wondering why I keep using the 19g wire. In reality it is really 19.5 gage and the 28 is 28.5 which sounds strange but I have about 4000 feet of each and so I use it unless I really need some other size. We have a old motor rebuilding company in town and I go there to get my wire and old motors they scrap out. I found that they along time ago use to use this size wire in motor rewind but no longer use it . They have thousands of feet of odd gage wire on hand and no longer use it. I told them that I would take off there hands if they would sell it for a reduced rate. I get it at 3-5 dollars a pound which is great. They also have the cloth coated wire by the 5-10 thousand feet rolls. I bought a couple thousand feet of that for the stubblefield coil work. works great. So you guys might try going to your local motor rebuild shop if you have one and maybe if they are old enough they might have some of this stuff on the shelf that you can get cheap!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on January 23, 2013, 02:56:12 PM

Quote from: drodenbe on January 23, 2013, 02:09:08 PM
hello conradelektro

I find that strange that you don't get anything from the 125t coil. One thing I would do is to put a 2.2 k resistor in series with the led or take it out all together until you get working at least that way. I have a digital power supply to first measure my current draw before I use a battery and I noticed that I did not get any reading on the digital meter in the ma position. I usually install a 1 ohm resistor in my boards to measure the current but didn't in this case. I noticed that if you are not using a 10 -20 turn pot I don't think you will find the sweat spot. I know I used a standard pot when I first ran the circuit and kept going right by where it needed to be. The adjustments with the 20 turn pot when you approach the sweat spot is only very fine tweaking like only 1 degree or less. I still have mine running and I noticed that the time of day does make a difference. It did not start working again correctly until after 4:00 pm my time. Did you look at the wave form with a scope on the 125t coil. I got a good strong signal. I also put a diode on one end of the winding and brought that back to the positive battery lead then connected the other end to earth ground. That improved the process even though it was working b4 I did that. I have always been able to adjust the pot so I could at least charge the run battery but depending on the time of day seam to determine if my charge battery would charge or just set there with the same voltage.

I don't want to change the subject or drift off of it completely but I did while I was letting the circuit run, hooked up one of my kacher circuits with a kacher coil with 182 turns of 28g wire and 10t 19g wire the form is 5 inches long and 4.5 inches in diameter I put 4 nicad batteries in series to run the circuit and put it inside the coil and it was pulling 18-20ma at 5.3volts and charged up the batteries to 5.4125 volts and holding steady. I am also running 3 led's in series through a diode plug. But this is for a different group. I just wanted to mention this because what ever is going on in the joule thief circuit all so happens in the kacher but only better.

I will do further experiments with a better potentiometer. Yes, I see nothing with a Multimeter at the third coil. Over a 100 Ohm resitor I could see something with an oscilloscope. A Sinus type signal with a bump in one halve at about 250 KHz, at a potentiometer setting with about 8 mA current draw. But the oscilloscope had trouble seeing it consistently. I lost the signal at lower than 6 mA (supply current) potentiometer settings.

Do you think a current draw of more than 3 mA can be compensated by whatever the coil induces into the AA NICad?

I also have two Kacher coils somewhere and will do tests in the coming days. The Kacher coil in the photo has 65 turns to get at 1 MHz, the other 200 turns swinging at around 400 KHz, primary was 2 turns. (See photo of a test in Kacher style some time ago). You are right, it should be more pronounced in a Kacher, because it radiates like mad. But my Kachers used Watts (2 to 7 Watts). That would be a lot of power to be given back to a battery? But may be I can set up a Kacher that uses only some mA. If I remember correctly I had a Kacher running at some 100 mA.

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Rfacts on January 23, 2013, 07:01:08 PM

drodenbe:
Thanks for sharing your efforts and results of this project and for answering questions about it. I appreciate the years of knowledge and experience that you have gained and the approach and equipment that you use. To check for same results it is very important to replicate as closely as possible so I have transcribed your notes to make sure I got them right. Please review and correct or clarify them as needed to help me and maybe others.

Including the coil inductances, waveform, voltages and frequencies on your schematic was very helpful. The very touchy adjustment that you have noted to find the sweet spot indicates that the operating frequency is critical to replicate your results. Significant deviation from the 19.5 gauge magnet wire, number of turns, winding direction, 20 turn potentiometer, and tape between windings (interwinding capacitance) will introduce other factors that may prevent the confirmation of your results. The more exact the replication the more accurate the confirmation whether the results are the same or not. So please verify/clarify/add to the following and on a separate post I will address some coil winding details and questions that I have. Thanks in advance.

Free Runner Schematic Notes 01-21-13 DJR:
1. Could use coil form and slip battery inside.
2. If you keep coil inductance close to stated values you should have proper frequency range.
3. Option 1 waveform: Positive pulses, 3.29V RMS, 5.28V Peak to Peak, 320KHz
4. Some transistors work better than others. Had best success with 2N3904 (NPN).
5. Glued insulated washers to top and bottom of battery (to use battery as coil form, wire connects to battery through hole in washer). One layer of double stick carpet tape and wound coils on prototype (used carpet tape between layers to hold coil windings in place, also increased interwinding capacitance).
6. Set potentiometer for frequency from 42KHz to 400KHz.
7. With no load on 125 turn coil, battery inside coil will charge and keep Joule Thief running at around 52KHz.
8. Ran test for 3 days with Option 2 and jumbo LED in circuit. Kept battery charged. Started with battery voltage 1.02 volts ended with 1.2288 volts.
9. Have to watch both battery voltages (run battery and charge battery) and adjust potentiometer so both charge. Very touchy adjustment.

Resistor in series with LED: 2.2K ohm
20K ohm potentiometer: 10 to 20 turns to allow fine adjustments

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on January 24, 2013, 10:27:48 AM

My first test of drodenbe's JT circuit (see my Reply #16094 above) showed a 40 mV loss of battery Voltage in about 24 hours.

I set up a new test: the third coil (130 turns) is shortened via a 1K resistor. And I adjusted the potentiometer at the base of the transistor till a nice Sinus curve appeared over the 1K resistor. This happens reliably at a power consumption of about 5 mA (about 10K).

But the scope probe has a strange effect: the frequency of the signal from the third coil over the 1K resistor depends on which way I connect the scope probe (see the photo which contains two screen shots from the scope). The power consumption measured over a 1 Ohm shunt (at battery plus pole) is about 5 mA but changes slightly when I connect the scope probe over the 1K resistor shortening the third coil. It will also go up slightly when I remove the 1 Ohm shunt.

So, a new test is running at a power consumption of about 5 mA and a nice Sinus signal over a 1K resistor shortening the third coil. We will see tomorrow how that goes.

I found my 68 turn Kacher (oscillates at about 1 MHz, see the photo in my last post) and will do tests over the weekend with four Ni-MH AA accumulators in series (about 4.8 to 55.2 Volt).

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: drodenbe on January 24, 2013, 10:35:42 AM

hello conradelektro

I have to stand corrected about the value of the inductance of the coils. My friend replicated my circuit and coil and his does not work as mine. He has same number turns wound directly on a AA nicad battery. He brought over today his board and coil. we wanted to see if his problem was the board or the coil. I installed my coil on his board and it worked ok. I put his coil on my board and it did not work. wave form not the same. We were wondering why my incuctance readings and his did not match up. I found that my new meter is way out in left field for some reason. So I have new values to report. The 50t coil is 14.4 uh the 125t is 131 uh and the 250t is 1.456 mh. So we have found that the inductance of the coil is evidently critical. Also I found out something else about this set up that I discovered. I have wound a couple hundred joule thief coils and never ran into a situation where it made a difference how the coil was hooked up. Now I know that the phasing has to be 180 out from one winding to the next and if I didn't get oscillation I would reverse one of the windings but not both. Then it would take off. So I would mark the wires and that is how I hooked up the coil from then on. But With this coil if I would hook up the secondary one way and have the primary 180 out it would oscillate around 1.5 mhz. with a different looking waveform more like a sign wave. If I would reverse both windings keeping the phasing the same in relation to the two coils it would oscillate around 2-400 khz with a pulse wave form. I guess you can always learn something new. I have not tried this with any toroid winds. May not be that way with a standard toroid, but I am going to find out. This would change a lot things as far as how something works.

My kacher coil is 182 turns and 10. and draws 18ma at 13.2 volts. I can't get a reading at 5 volts. Will have to install resistor and measure voltage drop to get current.

One last thing. I noticed since I have been on this forum all others have not been posting. Only you. I did not mean to scare every one away! My original intent in the beginning was to give you guys this info and you could play with it and maybe you would have same results. I was just going to dump it and go. So since no one is posting but conradelektro I will no longer post and you guys can go back to what you were doing before I rudely interrupted. So good luck with your work!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on January 24, 2013, 10:47:36 AM

Quote from: drodenbe on January 24, 2013, 10:35:42 AM
hello conradelektro
One last thing. I noticed since I have been on this forum all others have not been posting. Only you. I did not mean to scare every one away! My original intent in the beginning was to give you guys this info and you could play with it and maybe you would have same results. I was just going to dump it and go. So since no one is posting but conradelektro I will no longer post and you guys can go back to what you were doing before I rudely interrupted. So good luck with your work!

@drodenbe: Again, why are you so touchy, like an old virgin. Give people time to do something. How can you expect that people sit around till you show up and the spring into action just because it is you.

Calm down, give us your measurements and your observations and over time things start to happen. Have patiance, stay calm. You have nothing to defend and nobody owes you anything. People will show up when you report interesting things, but will not act on your whim.

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on January 24, 2013, 12:03:49 PM

There may be some guys waiting for further replications, to prove the point of the self runner, or very efficient JT coil made over the battery core.
I have my doubts and would need more confirmation. Most any coil will work to a some degree, but a true self runner?
We have been at this a long time, to no avail as far as a useable self running JT type device. All such devices have failed in time. At least from what I've seen, heard about , or made myself. Or have been uselessly blinking an led, for a long time.
You will not get much of a a response from us by being impatient. You need to prove and demonstrate the fact that you think that you have a valuable and unique device, which has been able to be replicated, before it merits much attention.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on January 24, 2013, 04:26:32 PM

HV NEGATIVE DC CHARGER 200113 YT imtotob
Same function as a fly swatter I think this can be looped

totoalas :) ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on January 24, 2013, 05:38:15 PM

Totoalas:
Is this the same device that burnt out the components and you mentioned that you were not going to further experiment with it? Or not?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: drodenbe on January 24, 2013, 05:38:39 PM

Ya know I really don't know how you can construe from my last post that I am angry, impatient, needing recognition or anything else! I have been in this business for over 40 years I am over 60years old. I have been a television tech. a design consultant. a design Eng. for a well known Meter design company, I have been a Plant Controls Eng. for 22 years. In the last 6 years I have wound some 2 to 3 thousand feet of wire in some 5 to 600 coils. Have I done extensive testing? Yes I have! I have survived days at a time with no more that 2-3 hours of sleep. In saying all this I just want you to know that I just didn't one day wake up and go to my local radio shack and pick up a electronics kit and put it together and then wound a coil and thought... Look here I have free energy! I am going to get on one of those.... what do you call it..... oh I know a forum and show every one what a great inventor I am. I am not angry and I don't really care if you build this or not. I bowed out, out of respect for the rest of you. I can't believe you read anything else in what I posted. From what you have just said you sound like the type that only sets around and lets everyone else do the work. I don't have to prove anything to anyone else but myself. I have done the tests I have it working. I have the instruments to make accurate measurements. I did not do a silent point at the parts video. I gave you a circuit a coil specification and it was up to you to build the thing. Do You have any Idea how may failed youtube projects my friend and I have built? Hundreds. We built the stuff and decided for ourselves if it work or not. I didn't set around complaining that the video and information sucked which in most cases It did! I had more information that my friend and I found out that will make it repeatable. But if I post it, It will take me another week to prove I am not pulling your leg. So build the thing and you will have to do as I have done to get a working device. and that is build some 500 coils and maybe you will find it. That is what my friend and I did. He has as much experience as I have . He is a design Eng. and has worked in a lab environment for industry for some 40 years. So in closing the only thing I am guilty of is being naive about the forum community. As I said in the beginning. I may make some mistakes. I did and you as well! I will now go back to my lab and let you guys figure this out your for selves. Ps. Not angry in the least. Now I know why Dr. Stiffler got out! Don't need the drama!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on January 24, 2013, 06:12:50 PM

Quote from: NickZ on January 24, 2013, 05:38:15 PM
Totoalas:
Is this the same device that burnt out the components and you mentioned that you were not going to further experiment with it? Or not?

This fly swatter cost me hkd 35 dollars, I left the spark gap shorted while charging the batteries in 220 v ac outlet.....but with proper care i think the circuit is fine .. usually only the batteries easily get busted.....( this is usually a battery/ 220v v ac operated)
see if i can buy the battery operated one in zuhai china this Saturday........
Maybe someone can make the 12 v circuit so we explore further.... but from this alone using solar will be an advantage for night time charging
lots of possibilities
totoalas :) ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on January 24, 2013, 06:22:44 PM

Quote from: drodenbe on January 24, 2013, 05:38:39 PM
Ya know I really don't know how you can construe from my last post that I am angry, impatient, needing recognition or anything else! I have been in this business for over 40 years I am over 60years old. I have been a television tech. a design consultant. a design Eng. for a well known Meter design company, I have been a Plant Controls Eng. for 22 years. In the last 6 years I have wound some 2 to 3 thousand feet of wire in some 5 to 600 coils. Have I done extensive testing? Yes I have! I have survived days at a time with no more that 2-3 hours of sleep. In saying all this I just want you to know that I just didn't one day wake up and go to my local radio shack and pick up a electronics kit and put it together and then wound a coil and thought... Look here I have free energy! I am going to get on one of those.... what do you call it..... oh I know a forum and show every one what a great inventor I am. I am not angry and I don't really care if you build this or not. I bowed out, out of respect for the rest of you. I can't believe you read anything else in what I posted. From what you have just said you sound like the type that only sets around and lets everyone else do the work. I don't have to prove anything to anyone else but myself. I have done the tests I have it working. I have the instruments to make accurate measurements. I did not do a silent point at the parts video. I gave you a circuit a coil specification and it was up to you to build the thing. Do You have any Idea how may failed youtube projects my friend and I have built? Hundreds. We built the stuff and decided for ourselves if it work or not. I didn't set around complaining that the video and information sucked which in most cases It did! I had more information that my friend and I found out that will make it repeatable. But if I post it, It will take me another week to prove I am not pulling your leg. So build the thing and you will have to do as I have done to get a working device. and that is build some 500 coils and maybe you will find it. That is what my friend and I did. He has as much experience as I have . He is a design Eng. and has worked in a lab environment for industry for some 40 years. So in closing the only thing I am guilty of is being naive about the forum community. As I said in the beginning. I may make some mistakes. I did and you as well! I will now go back to my lab and let you guys figure this out your for selves. Ps. Not angry in the least. Now I know why Dr. Stiffler got out! Don't need the drama!

drodenbe
I admire your skills and compassion, we are almost in same situation as yours.... my 3 years experience in the community had built my totoalas brand of pride in success or failures ive had and shared....
just continue to see peek observe and come along as we are all in one for having one objective Not so FREE ENERGY on our home turf....
When opportunity comes when I visit my friends and relatives in remote mountains... I bring along my replications to ease out their longing for Light , power fo a simple radio and thats it . thats how simple life is in the Philippines
If ever you want to share more ..... please do so
thanks
totoalas :) ;)
the three yellow dots under my handle is my hard earned contribution thanks to the OU team

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Rfacts on January 24, 2013, 09:55:00 PM

Why does it take so long to get some messages approved for posting on this forum? As of this time it has been about 30 hours since I posted a message to drodenbe, it was assigned post#16098 but it is displayed to me as awaiting approval from moderator. Numerous other messages have been publicly posted while mine awaits approval? I had spent some time and effort reviewing and transcribing drodenbe's schematic notes and coil specs and it would have let him know that others are interested and posting but too late now.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on January 25, 2013, 06:57:02 AM

The test from my Reply #16098 (the photo with the scope shots) lost some 10 mV battery Voltage over night, but I leave it running till the battery is in its nominal range below 1.2 V.

I set up the Kacher (well, a Kacher is a JT with a big coil) and it is running at a supply Voltage as low as 1 V.

I put a 1.2 V Ni MH AA battery inside the coil and we will see.

The AV plug (blue LED) has a short wire hanging into the coil and is not connected to the circuit. The LED glows down to a supply Voltage of 1 Volt.

Power draw is about 5 mA at 1.2 V (over a 1 Ohm shunt at the plus pole of the battery) and the circuit swings at about 1.3 MHz.

I will leave it running till tomorrow and then I will try some steel sheet over the battery which will be connected to the high output of the 160 turn coil.

Greetings, Conrad

P.S.: I probably will never post again because you are such bad and dramatic people and because I have 150 year experience and because you do not love me. ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on January 25, 2013, 04:09:58 PM

Jes ascanius radiant collector post no 20 by ascanius himself circuit on pk book
Energetic forum guruji has success with charging small battery of motorbike post no 83
Beside tate circuit this one is an alternativve

Totoalas ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on January 26, 2013, 10:03:32 AM

Quote from: NickZ on January 24, 2013, 05:38:15 PM
Totoalas:
Is this the same device that burnt out the components and you mentioned that you were not going to further experiment with it? Or not?

Hv dc spark gap charger 2 130126 yt imtotob
Using 12 v dc relay had good spark unlike reed dwitch having fast reaction

Totoalas ;) :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on January 28, 2013, 07:17:22 AM

The tests of drodenbes circuit or coil ideas all showed a drop of about 40 mV per day (Ni Cd AA accumulator in a replication of his coil and in a Kacher coil, see my previous posts).

Since people were talking about metal plates near the battery of a Kacher, I made a strange variable capacitor which encloses a Ni-MH AA 1.2 V accumulator. We will see whether this charges the battery. I will also try the Ni Cd AA 1.2 V accumulator and a Alkaline AA 1.5 V battery (the throw away type).

The strange capacitor has an effect. When I move it (less capacitance) the LED dims a bit. The 10 K potentiometer is set to a power consumption of about 5 mA. Reducing the resistor at the base of the transistor to 3.3 K results in a power draw near 9 mA. This might be too high to be recharged by whatever strange effect.

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Mk1 on April 07, 2013, 08:34:09 PM

@all

Hi my name is Mark , i just got the internet and found my way here , i did no have the internet for over one year , in the last few days i have seen a miracle people working together

without having the satisfie ther egos , i see millions of people acting like Tesla would , its a great day !

Back i few years the war of the smartes was still raging , its a new world one we are building !

We now need to get smarter and act on it , lets be guided and do things for the many and not the one.

LoL , that should do for tradition ...

Glad to be back i have been working on a few things over the year , a mobius copper core jt , with linear pickup coil , should i hope give dc output ,

and i close to realeasing video of experiments on the bell , i have been holdidng on to it until it made more sense now its getting there .

Mk1

@Conrad

Nice coil !!!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 07, 2013, 08:45:54 PM

Mark:

It is great to see you back on here again. You have contributed quite a lot to the efforts over here. I look forward to reading your posts once again.

Welcome back.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tysb3 on April 08, 2013, 10:57:25 PM

hi, Mk1
nice to see you again

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on April 10, 2013, 05:57:16 AM

Hi folks, Hi mk1,
"Back i few years the war of the smartes was still raging , its a new world one we are building !
We now need to get smarter and act on it , lets be guided and do things for the many and not the one."
Very true, so you've noticed something has changed in this world also hey.
I've noticed it also, it seems like things of a negative or malevolent nature are disappearing, is the best way I can describe it and has been happening within me for sometime as well.
peace love light
tyson

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 05, 2013, 02:26:45 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=De7eExLLvGw&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=De7eExLLvGw&feature=youtu.be)

This is my Mini-Fuji circuit mounted in a nice box. Very simple but it works well and puts out a lot of light...more than a cfl and no problem with breakage or mercury. I love LEDs.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 05, 2013, 02:56:28 PM

I forgot to mention in the video that the L.O.A. 27 chip LED is un-modified. I use it just as it comes from the store.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on May 10, 2013, 02:53:03 PM

Hi Bill, very nicely presented as usual.
Do you still have your earth battery experiments in use? Regards Merv

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 10, 2013, 09:01:10 PM

Merv:

Thank you very much. As a matter of fact, the E.B. is on the list for one of my next videos. I need to re-work my connections and such but, it is still out there and, even though I have not used it in a bit, I believe it will still work fine. We will see.

Thanks again,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Lakes on May 11, 2013, 04:48:42 AM

Nice Box! :D is it one you had or did you buy it and where from?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 11, 2013, 12:35:54 PM

Thanks. It was one I had that used to hold a set of pin gauges. All I did was stain it a bit darker.

I did find a possible source for similar boxes at reasonable prices, although I have not ordered from them yet. See what you think:

http://www.sunshinecrafts.com/dept_view.php?DPath=WOOD~WDBOX&Page=2 (http://www.sunshinecrafts.com/dept_view.php?DPath=WOOD~WDBOX&Page=2)

I know these types of boxes are very expensive at my local hobby shops.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 19, 2013, 08:58:26 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4w1q19y2nPA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4w1q19y2nPA)

I used my last 3.375" diameter ferrite toroid to make another Lidmotor/Jeanna light circuit. 330 winds on the secondary with 3 winds on the base and the pick-up coil has 13 winds. (22 ohm resistor) I am able to run two Lights of America 4 watt bulbs. (25 watt equivalent for each bulb)

I mounted the project into one of the wooden boxes I ordered from the link I posted in my previous post. These are nice little boxes for a cheap price. I could not make one of these boxes for anywhere near the low price.

I will have to find another way to make some high voltage for these circuits as to buy another 3.375" toroid is about $50.00 (US) now. These used to be available for just a few bucks each.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 20, 2013, 09:16:24 PM

I am thinking about attempting to drive this unit with a special battery i have from one of my flashlights. It is a 18650 3.7 volt 3,600 mAh Li-ion battery. It will fit inside the case easily and I think (hope) that the TIP3055 transistor mounted on a huge heat sink will take it ok.

Any thoughts on this?

I can easily run my other Lid/Jeanna circuit light on 3 volts and the cfl is a lot brighter when I do this.

I guess I just can't leave well enough alone.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on May 21, 2013, 03:22:12 AM

Hi Bill, give it a try... the only thoughts I have is the Vce of the 2N3055 we know it's a robust beast at 15amps but has a 50v limit. How about looking at line scan output devices from early TV scaning circuits, these are designed for very fast switching and high collector pulse voltages. Some of these devices will have an integral diode of course which may or may not influence their performance with JT circuits. I'm sure you can pick up scrap TV's for nothing and salvage these devices, worth looking into.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 21, 2013, 07:45:35 PM

Thanks for the reply. I am using the TIP 3055 that lists the Vce at 60. (collector base is 100 volts) I don't know if I will exceed that or not but, I have a bunch more of them so....why not?

I will look into your idea. Here at my apartment complex, someone throws out an old TV about once/month....or crt computer monitor. I have salvage many cool things from the dumpster, ha ha. I would have to figure out how to wire it up though.

Thanks again,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 21, 2013, 11:18:11 PM

https://www.bgmicro.com/PWR1161.aspx (https://www.bgmicro.com/PWR1161.aspx)

A fellow left a comment about where to obtain large toroids and at that site I found the above. (see link) This is a ferrite 3" OD x 1" thick toroid already wound with magnet wire and a primary. I ordered 4 of them and will see if I can hack these to make more lights. I will probably have to re-do the primary and add a pick-up coil but, hopefully I can keep the secondary windings as they are. If not, I get a cheap ferrite toroid and some spare wire.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: turbogt16v on May 24, 2013, 10:27:38 AM

hello

is this schematic possible to be charged by 12 v from my PC

http://www.overunity.com/6123/jule-thief/dlattach/attach/123805/image//

and to able to lift the power and how much ?

I am asking because i want to charge up a bit my speakers with this free electricity, and i need to know how powerful amp do i need ...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 24, 2013, 09:55:57 PM

Hello, and welcome to the topic.

That JT in that schematic will produce close to 1,000 volts from a "dead" 1.5 volt battery. I have run them at about 2.5-3 volts but not 12 as the input. The output is high frequency high voltage and I don't think that is what you are looking for as your speakers are most likely dc.

Also, remember that this energy is only "free" because you can use batteries that others have thrown away, or, like me, my friends save a bunch of them and give them to me so my lights around my home are free. This does not produce more energy output than is put into it.

I hope I have answered your question ok.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: turbogt16v on May 25, 2013, 12:53:03 PM

yes i got it ,thanks

but can you answer 1 more question,

i know that this is not possible because somebody did probably tried this in this tread...

Can you use rechargeable battery and circuit to loop part of current to the battery ,infinite battery

can you please explain it to me simple..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 25, 2013, 01:58:18 PM

I believe that some folks here were trying that, I do not recall how far they got with it. If you feed back some of the power, which would be mostly voltage on the output, it seems to me it would only reduce your output and possibly make it run longer but, you can do that by tuning the resistance with a variable resistor. If you can get some free batteries, then, like me, you don't really care how long it runs. You probably know a lot of folks that just toss those out when their electronics devices (camera, wireless mouse, flashlights, etc) quit working with them. There is a lot of energy left in those batteries.

I am sorry that I could not answer your question in more detail. I believe that Gadgetmall was one of the ones using a feedback circuit. You could go to his profile and look at his past postings and find the date range that this was being worked on.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 27, 2013, 07:03:00 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIF7AylcISw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIF7AylcISw)

Two JT surplus flash circuit lights that operate well. I got the flash circuit boards over at Electronics Goldmine. These look similar to the old Kodak boards but I could not match it to any schematic but, they were easy enough to figure out how to hack. So, circuit boards were $.69 each (US) and the wooden boxes were $2.00 each and these lights are great and, although it is not as good as the old Fuji AA boards, it is pretty close. I can't get those Fuji boards over here any more.

Cheap lights to use depleted batteries...who could ask for more?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: kooler on May 28, 2013, 12:37:02 AM

kool.. I got 6-7 of those boards I think.. I try to make me one of those soon.. thanks

robbie

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 28, 2013, 01:21:11 AM

Robbie:

That is good. Thanks. I am going to get some more before they are gone...just to be safe. It was basically just taking the output from where the cap was and shorting the on-off switch and removing things not needed. I am sure we can get even better performance from these with a little work.

The good news is that they work fine right away. Knowing you, you will find a way to increase their output. I look forward to seeing that.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 28, 2013, 08:54:34 PM

Goldmine has a package deal where you get 10 of these boards for $5.00 (US), fifty cents/board. I just ordered 10 more boards.

What a deal that is.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: LockwoodMan on May 29, 2013, 08:17:51 PM

Hi there, I am a big fan of this thread - currently up to about page 300 odd - bookmarked on my laptop. Amazing source of information that gave me the will to make my own flash joule thief.

I'm not trying to step on anyone's toes here but I've made a website about the joule thief - http://joulethiefcircuit.com .

So far I have just given a basic overview of how it works, a picture of the stock JT schematic, a link to this thread:)

I know this forum is one of the main sources for JT & other energy device research but if anyone here wants somewhere personal to talk/blog about their experiments, theories & research - you are welcome to have a blog/page type thing at joulethiefcircuit.com.

I will support this website by putting a advertisement on mine.

Once again, this is an amazing source of information. Thank you, all the best & keep it up.
Hopefully I'll catch up one day :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: ian middleton on May 30, 2013, 12:27:24 AM

G'day Bill,
Just thought I'd drop and see how you were going. Always good to see lotsa progress. :)
I'm not dead yet LOL and still boiling up crystals. Latest effort sitting in front of me at work.
I'm modifying a JT to act as an exciter for a crystal cell but achieving resonance with the matrix is a bit tricky.
Anyway good to see you are all doing fine.
Ian

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 02, 2013, 03:29:27 PM

Ian:

It is great to see you again. How is your crystal cell research going? I am still messing around with building little lights. Hopefully, they will be good for something someday, ha ha.

If you have a link to where your crystal cell work is going on, I would like to see that.

Take care,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 02, 2013, 03:32:56 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIi_U8Rs_1c (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIi_U8Rs_1c)

Another JT light made using an LED bulb made by Phillips. This bulb was expensive and the light output from the mains was not that great. So, I gutted the bulb, mounted another surplus flash circuit in a box and placed a small mustard jar over the LED. It is brighter now then when driven by the mains and their driver circuit.

I just got a great CREE 800 Lumen LED bulb and I love it. I will be converting all of my house light bulbs to these. I will make a video of them soon.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on June 02, 2013, 03:41:33 PM

Beauty!

I think you have a commercially viable product there, Bill, and you should go for it, get rich! Seriously, man, look at what that fellow telsatronix (iirc) did with Slayer's exciter. Before he knew what hit him he had thirtysix thousand dollars worth of orders.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 02, 2013, 04:00:55 PM

Quote from: TinselKoala on June 02, 2013, 03:41:33 PM
Beauty!

I think you have a commercially viable product there, Bill, and you should go for it, get rich! Seriously, man, look at what that fellow telsatronix (iirc) did with Slayer's exciter. Before he knew what hit him he had thirtysix thousand dollars worth of orders.

Thanks TK. The surplus boards are cheap enough but, I only have 11 of them left and who knows how many goldmine actually has on hand? Even though the boards are cheap, and the box is only a few bucks, by the time you add the neos for the battery holder and universal connectors, and the LOA bulbs (which I would use in a commercial version) and the switch, it adds up.

I have no desire to be rich but, some extra money for supplies and gadgets would be a nice thing.

Thanks,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on June 02, 2013, 05:09:12 PM

Take a look at teslatronix's process. He is selling kits at all levels, from just circuit boards, to parts packages, to completed boards, all the way to the high-priced fully completed units.
If you design a PC board with the necessary circuit you could get them made in bulk for cheap, then sell parts kits or whatever level of completion you like. Let the customer supply the LED bulb and the box! Or make-to-order the highpriced fully completed units.
The advantage of the Goldmine boards is that you have a really cheap and easy source for the components, but even if you have to source the parts on the commercial market they will still be cheap if you can buy in bulk.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 03, 2013, 07:53:47 PM

Quote from: TinselKoala on June 02, 2013, 05:09:12 PM
Take a look at teslatronix's process. He is selling kits at all levels, from just circuit boards, to parts packages, to completed boards, all the way to the high-priced fully completed units.
If you design a PC board with the necessary circuit you could get them made in bulk for cheap, then sell parts kits or whatever level of completion you like. Let the customer supply the LED bulb and the box! Or make-to-order the highpriced fully completed units.
The advantage of the Goldmine boards is that you have a really cheap and easy source for the components, but even if you have to source the parts on the commercial market they will still be cheap if you can buy in bulk.

TK:

Hmmmmm....I had not considered the kit approach. I just figured that I could never compete with the Chinese circuits already built into products. (Like my 3" Plasma Globe in my last video....$6.00!!!) The circuit board would be easy, if I can find a source for those small transformers...just the transfo, the transistor and a resistor. A kit might not be a bad way to go here. Thanks.

Why have you not done this already with some of your excellent projects? Heck, I know I would buy some.

Thanks,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: goku_092966 on June 04, 2013, 11:58:04 PM

Thanks to this forum, i have modified the two LEd lanterns with JT circuit. The gutted CFL is powered using a flash circuit from a film camera. Disposable cameras are scarce here so I looked around for some film cameras at a Japan surplus store.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 05, 2013, 12:17:22 AM

goku:

Welcome to the forum. Those are some nice looking lights you have there...good work. It is great to see people using these circuits to make lights that can be used daily, and use batteries that others have thrown away. I look forward to seeing more of your projects.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: sparks on June 06, 2013, 07:25:40 PM

Hi Bill.

In loaded conditions how low in volts can the battery get before the lights go out? I'm just thinking of making batteries out of saltwater and junk metal for some nearly free energy. ::)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 06, 2013, 07:38:35 PM

Sparks:

With these new surplus flash circuits...I don't know. The other JT's would usually get down to about .3 volts before the light was not good anymore. As my batteries get down on these new lights, I will check and keep you posted.

Let me know how you make out with the cells. That sounds very interesting.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 09, 2013, 01:26:25 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNgzap7vvW0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNgzap7vvW0)

100 LED bench light that I run on the mains but, I made a portable JT using regular plugs and it runs from that as well.

I have no idea why some of this video got cut out during uploading. I will make another one that shows the portable JT power box a bit better.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 09, 2013, 03:51:07 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKQpOelCBBE&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKQpOelCBBE&feature=youtu.be)

Here is my JT portable power box. Very easy to make and very helpful on testing leds for possible use with flash circuits. I re-did this as it was supposed to be in my earlier video but it got cut somehow.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 18, 2013, 09:35:04 PM

http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G17610B (http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G17610B)

Hey, Goldmine now has these flash boards down to $4.00 (US) for 10 of them. 40 cents each! I think I am going to get another 10 for this price. They say that some might not work...well...I had 2 that did not BUT I found out how to fix them....it was easy. All I had to do was solder a jumper from the diode to the - output lead. Maybe there are some other problems but both of mine work great after doing this. All of the others i got seem to work fine as they came.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Lakes on June 19, 2013, 02:29:37 AM

Buy them all and resell them on Ebay as Jule thief kits! :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on June 27, 2013, 06:58:08 PM

Hi folks, built a nice little night light joule thief, will post pics later today.
Uses one 1.2v AA rechargeable cell or 1.5v AA alkaline type cell.
Uses ferrite flyback core, salvaged from television.
Uses 30 awg. magnetic wire for secondary and 24awg. bifilar for primary and feedback windings.
Uses 2n3055 transistor.
Amp draw is 240 milliamps.
Watts used is around 300 milliwatts.
Very usable light output, can easily use to read a book or light a smaller room with enough light to see what one is doing.
peace love light
tyson :)
also using gutted feit led bulb, has 9 led, normally draws 2.5 watts.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 27, 2013, 11:48:28 PM

Quote from: SkyWatcher123 on June 27, 2013, 06:58:08 PM
Hi folks, built a nice little night light joule thief, will post pics later today.
Uses one 1.2v AA rechargeable cell or 1.5v AA alkaline type cell.
Uses ferrite flyback core, salvaged from television.
Uses 30 awg. magnetic wire for secondary and 24awg. bifilar for primary and feedback windings.
Uses 2n3055 transistor.
Amp draw is 240 milliamps.
Watts used is around 300 milliwatts.
Very usable light output, can easily use to read a book or light a smaller room with enough light to see what one is doing.
peace love light
tyson :)

also using gutted feit led bulb, has 9 led, normally draws 2.5 watts.

Nice job. Light is great especially when you can make it with batteries that might otherwise be thrown away.
Excellent.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on June 28, 2013, 02:51:28 AM

Pretty, I like it.

Now I'm wondering about JT Color Organs..... some of these color LEDs are very bright for very little current.....

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 28, 2013, 08:24:54 PM

Quote from: TinselKoala on June 28, 2013, 02:51:28 AM
Pretty, I like it.

Now I'm wondering about JT Color Organs..... some of these color LEDs are very bright for very little current.....

I made one about 3 years ago using those strings of 100 leds each. (The first year I used those mini bulbs and had a color for each freq.) The circuit had an output for low, med. and high freq. and I put them on my Christmas tree. It reminded me of our tree back in the 60's when my Dad made one. (It had tubes, ha ha) I used a kit from goldmine not the arduino like you are using. That thing fascinates me.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on June 29, 2013, 12:56:33 AM

Hi folks, thanks for the kind words.
This low input light definitely is practical.
It is seen in the photo lighting up the bathroom to usable light levels, though it is more like 3 times the brightness of what is shown, the leds are blinding the camera.
If the leds were cree, bet it would be twice as bright for same input.
Hmm, have two of the new 6 watt (40 watt equivalent) cree bulbs here, my curiosity might get the best of me and i may just gutt one of these and try it.
Also notice, neo magnets, so it can be placed just about anywhere one has metal corner bead in walls or metal door frames, etc.
Interesting thing is, this is about the same light output as the 16 warm white top hat leds we've been using for almost a year in the bathroom and using a wall wart to power straight dc into the leds, draws almost 2 watts, considering wall wart losses, etc.
peace love light
tyson ;) :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on July 03, 2013, 07:34:45 PM

Hi folks, could not stop meself from gutting one of the 6 watt (40watt equivalent) cree led bulbs.
Haven't tweaked it yet, though it is performing better than the gutted 2.5 watt feit bulb.
Cree bulb has 10 leds compared to 9 with feit bulb.
It is already equal or better brightness than the feit and using 1.2v AA nimh, it is drawing 130 milliamps or around 160 milliwatts, will tweak later to raise input amps to equal what the feit bulb was drawing for a better comparison.
peace love light
tyson :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 03, 2013, 08:05:33 PM

Great job. I have the 60 w version and I think this is the best LED light bulb out there at this time for the money. I am using them on the mains for light in my home. (no more cfl's!) The only mod I do to them is to remove that rubber diffusion coating on the bulb itself. I use an exacto knife to do this. I figure I am paying for all of the light I can get. I have not gutted one as of yet nor tried to run it on any of my JT circuits. You beat me to it. Very nice.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on July 04, 2013, 03:56:30 PM

Yes these LED lights are the way to go and becoming more popular over here in the UK. I recently replaced my bathroom halogen down lighter spots with just one single LED spot, there are six LED's encapsulated in a single spot light. Although the cost is quite high (£33.00 sterling) the light matches the old halogens a treat and of course far cheaper to use. I'm convinced LED's will continue to improve further with time. Good work SkyWatcher

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 05, 2013, 01:11:58 AM

Quote from: crowclaw on July 04, 2013, 03:56:30 PM
Yes these LED lights are the way to go and becoming more popular over here in the UK. I recently replaced my bathroom halogen down lighter spots with just one single LED spot, there are six LED's encapsulated in a single spot light. Although the cost is quite high (£33.00 sterling) the light matches the old halogens a treat and of course far cheaper to use. I'm convinced LED's will continue to improve further with time. Good work SkyWatcher

The Cree 60 watt equiv. cost $10.00 (USD) and are far brighter than any of the $30-$40 bulbs I have tested. The heat sink gets a little hot, but I made some additional heat sinks out of a cut up beer can. (I will show this in a video when I get a chance.) I am sure Cree knows what they are doing but, keeping it a bit cooler can only add to the life of the bulb I would think. I agree totally with what you said about the leds only getting better with time. I am so done with those stupid cfl's. I have a box full of them after they burned out. None lasted longer than a few months. Add the mercury problem and the disposal rules and the cost and all you get is a piece of crap. (can you tell I don't like them?)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on July 05, 2013, 11:59:57 AM

Hi crow, yes, leds are great, thanks for kind words.
Hi pirate, payed $10 USD for one of these 6watt (40watt equivalent) bulbs at the depot, hmm, maybe they have come down in price since.
Ran this gutted bulb up to around 2.8 watts input, using 4 volt lithium ion pack from salvaged lap top.
It is nice and bright at that input, though what seems interesting, is it generates very little heat at that input.
Wonder if using the full 6 watt input, would the heat start to skyrocket or not, hard to tweak it much higher with this particular core/coil setup.
Though get the feeling that the high frequency pulsing, allows it to run much cooler than the standard circuit inside bulb, which would make the leds last far longer, maybe.
peace love light
tyson ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on July 05, 2013, 03:31:36 PM

Your quite correct the HF pusing will make some difference to the heat being generated compared with a steady state DC voltage. One point I ment to mention in my last post is the notable difference in the colour temperature with my LED_ halogen replacement. The light output closely matches standard incandescent lamps that we are more used to, and easier on the eye to accept. You Guys were experimenting with these replacement LED's for the home long before they became readily available here in the UK, but standard white LED's in their various forms emit a more of a silvery glow, not unlike moon light.
I've experimented with outdoor lighting for some time using high wattage LED's, driven by JT circuits, these are extremely bright but as you look around at the illuminated area although lit up, the amount of brightness persieved is not quite the same as that of incandescent lighting by comparison. The colour spectrum influences this difference of course. As costs and availabilty of more natural LED lights come within my experimental reach, I will be replacing my outdoor CFL's. Incidently... has anybody made similar LED comparisons with the types mentioned here? Regards Crow

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 05, 2013, 09:14:39 PM

I agree. Some of these leds respond well to high voltage/high frequency which helps us use less power and the "dead" batteries last a lot longer.

Some photos of my heat sink made from an adult beverage can bottom. Yes, I got my lights at depot also and yes, they were on sale. They had the 40 and the 60 watt equiv. on display in two light fixtures. For just $2 more I went with the 60's to run off the mains. Now I will have to take one apart and see if I can get it to light too. Can you save the glass bulb when taking it apart?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on July 06, 2013, 02:42:53 AM

Hi crow, the cree bulb pirate is showing, at least the 6 watt (40 watt equivalent) ones here, have pretty much identical color temperature to an incandescent sitting next to it.
Pirate, the glass globe with coating is secured with some type of glue that is very hard, almost glass like, probably to handle the heat and so the glass globe does not want to go back on, maybe a high temp glue would work to resecure it, if needed.
peace love light
tyson :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 06, 2013, 03:18:35 AM

Tyson:

OK, thanks. As I said, I didn't have the guts to try to take one apart. (Yet) Too bad they don't come apart like a CFL...remove guts and re-assemble. Once again, very nice job on this project. Hopefully, the depot will have another sale and I will obtain a few more. I am sure that the prices will come down eventually.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on July 06, 2013, 02:34:04 PM

I noticed on the box 'warm white' the glass envelope is probably cemented to it's base with a heat proof cement which usually is very hard. If you have a dremel and cutting disc then you may gain access that way or even a grinder perhaps. I've started to collect the screw cap bases from scrap CFL's and mount my DIY low voltage LED projects into these bases for my out door lanterns. Here in the UK for years our mains lighting has used (BC) bayonet cap lamps, however most lighting products are ES as you Guys use. Much better idea!
I'll post a pic of one of my 'home brew' lamps. Cheers Guys Crow

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on July 06, 2013, 02:57:54 PM

That carton shows 9.5W for 60W equivalent which is just under 0.09A assuming 110v supply. Intersting to know the current draw for equivalent brightness using your JT circuits! can you give a breakdown of it's dropper circuit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 06, 2013, 05:32:30 PM

Crow:

I would love to see some photos of your homebrew lights. They sound interesting. Are you able to get any of these new Cree bulbs in your area?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 07, 2013, 12:07:08 AM

Here are some photos of my Cree, modified by removing the driver board. It was not too bad. I will be able to put it back together (empty) so I can screw it back into an Edison base to run in one of my JT light fixtures. I am driving it here using my little handy box surplus flash board JT using an AA battery. It lights up very well.

Thanks Tyson for showing me that this could be done.
Crow: There is a photo of the little driver board...3 inductors, 2 caps and a smd transistor, resistors, etc.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on July 07, 2013, 02:56:26 AM

Thanks Bill, looks very much like a Buck converter...a lot of tech in that little circuit. Crow

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 07, 2013, 03:29:44 PM

I made a video of my little surplus flash circuit handy box driving the gutted Cree 60w LED. I was able to take it apart, remove the driver circuit, and put it back together. What a great light this is! I already loved it when driven by the mains but, I just put it into one of my other JT box lights that needed another dead battery because the LOA bulb was getting dim and this thing lit up very brightly. We will have to do more work on these. Thanks once again Tyson.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8O9r085l0M (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8O9r085l0M)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: ColoradoSpringsFilms on July 07, 2013, 07:33:31 PM

Greetings,

I've recently discovered your youtube channel and am very impressed. I was wondering, you mention that you found this surplus flash circuit on electronic goldmine; do you know where it is listed on the site. Could not find it. Anyway great vid, in the process of replicating.

John

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 08, 2013, 07:52:11 PM

Quote from: ColoradoSpringsFilms on July 07, 2013, 07:33:31 PM
Greetings,

I've recently discovered your youtube channel and am very impressed. I was wondering, you mention that you found this surplus flash circuit on electronic goldmine; do you know where it is listed on the site. Could not find it. Anyway great vid, in the process of replicating.

John

John:

Thank you very much, I really appreciate your saying that. Welcome to the forum and the Joule Thief topic.

Yes, those surplus boards WERE available but sadly they sold out of them. I was looking for more last week too. I purchased 30 of them while I could get them. I was thinking of making the required modifications to them and possibly selling them on my website. That is the only problem with surplus stuff, when they are gone, they are gone. In the early days, we used to be able to get (from goldmine) five 1" toroids for a dollar. (USD) That was a great deal too and a lot of JT circuits were built using those. It didn't take too long for those to sell out.

You can still buy a camera...use it for photos, and then modify the board or, do what I have done many times...buy the camera and tear it apart without using it. If you go this route and need some help. just let me, or someone else on here know.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: ColoradoSpringsFilms on July 08, 2013, 08:37:26 PM

Bill, greatly appreciated

This is my first time on the forum here and very impressed at the content. Me, being only a junior in high school, find all of this material very interesting, and just around now I've been delving into some joule thieves. Previously I was glued to comparing the two waveforms of Longitudinal magneto-dielectric and Electromagnetic, and their properties. But, anyway, if I need help on the circuit, I'll give it a post, haha. And I guess I'll see if I can find something on earth batteries. I wanna get started on that and then doing some modifications like you showed with your fuji circuit. Any tips on where you got the caps?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 08, 2013, 08:53:27 PM

I got the 10 farad caps here: http://www.digikey.com/scripts/dksearch/dksus.dll?pv13=342&FV=fff40002%2Cfff8000c%2Cfffc024d&mnonly=0&newproducts=0&ColumnSort=0&page=1&quantity=0&ptm=0&fid=0&pageSize=25 (http://www.digikey.com/scripts/dksearch/dksus.dll?pv13=342&FV=fff40002%2Cfff8000c%2Cfffc024d&mnonly=0&newproducts=0&ColumnSort=0&page=1&quantity=0&ptm=0&fid=0&pageSize=25)

They have many other sizes as well. I can't remember where I got my 650 F boostcap but I believe it was from a surplus place, possibly goldmine, but I have not seen them in a while. You can find some large ones on ebay from time to time.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 13, 2013, 05:34:15 PM

My modified 60W Cree LED in a Luxo Lamp powered by my surplus JT power box circuit. (AA battery)

I love this new lamp!

Bill

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6S9kx3feZbE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6S9kx3feZbE)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: ColoradoSpringsFilms on July 13, 2013, 09:16:00 PM

Wow Bill,

That's really nice light coming from there. The circuit your using, is this the same one that was used in your last post on piratelabs?

-John

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 13, 2013, 10:01:58 PM

John:

Yes, it is one of those surplus flash circuits installed into my JT power box using an AA battery. Thank you for your comment.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on July 17, 2013, 03:30:41 AM

Hi folks, Hi pirate, thanks for sharing the information and videos.
Do you know the amp draw of that setup or could you check, thanks, just curious.
Boxing up mine soon and replacing the other feit gutted bulb with the cree 6 watt (40 watt equivalent).
peace love light
tyson :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 17, 2013, 08:09:48 PM

Quote from: SkyWatcher123 on July 17, 2013, 03:30:41 AM
Hi folks, Hi pirate, thanks for sharing the information and videos.
Do you know the amp draw of that setup or could you check, thanks, just curious.
Boxing up mine soon and replacing the other feit gutted bulb with the cree 6 watt (40 watt equivalent).
peace love light
tyson :)

Yes, I do. Stefan asked me about that after seeing the video so I actually checked it. It draws 210 mA's while driving the gutted Cree 60w equiv. from an AA battery. I love these Crees. I hope that more folks start experimenting with them.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on July 18, 2013, 06:25:07 PM

Hi pirate, thanks for the reply, finished boxing up this gutted cree version and it really puts out alot of useful light.
The amp draw can tweaked by adjusting the air gap of the ferrite TV flyback core.
At 280 miliamps, 1.28 volt AA nimh cell input or around 350 milliwatts, it gives very useful light.
A dead alkaline AA that shows 1.4 volts resting, when under load it drops to around 1.2 volts and gives good light for a few hours at least.
Wonder if experimenting with small capacitor placed in certain parts of circuit might enhance efficiency.
Will post a video later to show the light output using a 1.2 volt nimh rechargeable cell.
peace love light
tyson :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Rich SAS on July 18, 2013, 08:20:49 PM

Bill ,, sent you a pm

Rich

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 18, 2013, 11:27:28 PM

Quote from: SkyWatcher123 on July 18, 2013, 06:25:07 PM
Hi pirate, thanks for the reply, finished boxing up this gutted cree version and it really puts out alot of useful light.
The amp draw can tweaked by adjusting the air gap of the ferrite TV flyback core.
At 280 miliamps, 1.28 volt AA nimh cell input or around 350 milliwatts, it gives very useful light.
A dead alkaline AA that shows 1.4 volts resting, when under load it drops to around 1.2 volts and gives good light for a few hours at least.
Wonder if experimenting with small capacitor placed in certain parts of circuit might enhance efficiency.
Will post a video later to show the light output using a 1.2 volt nimh rechargeable cell.
peace love light
tyson :)

Tyson:

I agree. A buddy of mine stopped by tonight and I showed him the light output of the gutted Cree in a dark room. He was impressed. He has seen my videos but, as we all know, you can't really get a good feel for the amount of light due to the camera's autoexposure.

Gadgetmall pioneered the use of a small ceramic cap to the base of the transistor. We would have to go back in the many posts and find what value he was using. I have never tried that but, I will probably be experimenting with that idea soon.

Looking forward to seeing your video. Nice work.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 18, 2013, 11:28:51 PM

Quote from: Rich SAS on July 18, 2013, 08:20:49 PM
Bill ,, sent you a pm

Rich

Rich:

Yes, thanks...I got it and replied.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on July 19, 2013, 08:10:14 AM

Hi folks, here is a video showing the gutted cree bulb using 1.2 volt AA at 280 milliamps, around 350 milliwatts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cotfanu5F6I&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cotfanu5F6I&feature=youtu.be)
It is somewhat brighter in reality.
Going to try different things to make more efficient, maybe different cores.
Though it seems like a closed core, or at least like this flyback core, with a small gap is probably best to use.
Normally it is not audible, but with the magnets at back to hold to wall, it is slightly audible.
If the ferrite cores air gap is closed, the oscillator becomes much more audible and brightness only increases slightly.
So it seems a proper core gap is good to use.
peace love light
tyson :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 19, 2013, 10:37:06 PM

Tyson:

Very well done. I think it is great that you are using this circuit in your daily life, as I do.

I am in the process of testing various transistors in order to get the most from our AA batteries. 2 of the ones I will be testing should be able to take a battery down to about .22 volts. I will keep you posted after they come in. I will be testing them using the surplus camera flash boards so I will have a good baseline for the tests.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on July 20, 2013, 03:44:27 PM

Just came across this utube Cree LED evaluation video which seemed quite interesting... might have a look into using these myself maybe. Regards Crow

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on July 22, 2013, 05:39:45 AM

Hi folks, made a couple modifications to the gutted cree 6 watt (40w equivalent) lamp.

Raised the input voltage to 3.8 volts, lithium ion pack salvaged. Added a 100 nanofarad non-polarized capacitor, salvaged from gutted cfl circuit. This capacitor is placed in series with the led bulb at the high voltage secondary coil. With a 1kohm base resistor and when using the secondary capacitor, the current draw is reduced almost by half. At 3.8 volts loaded input and 290 milliamps or around 1.1 watts, using the secondary capacitor, this puts out a very good amount of useful light. Without using the capacitor, the current draw is around 550 milliamps or around 2.1 watts and the led bulb appears half as bright. This capacitor in series with the secondary coil, seems to be a nice way to boost efficiency or is creating a better frequency match. peace love light tyson

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on July 22, 2013, 11:19:47 AM

SkyWatcher:
Nice light output. How does it compare to the Cree bulb running on normal house current? One 1.1watt would also work well if connected to a small solar panel, for emergency light or for everyday use.

I'm making a homemade solar panel now using 30 garden light cells all connected in parallel, plus three of the motion sensing light panels, which give about 10v each, all connected in series with the garden light cells. I'll uploads some pics when I finish it.

Do you remember back when Slayer used a 2.5 watt Ac led pyramid shaped bulb that was lit using the Lasersaber circuit, but only drew 28 mA at 12v, and 13mA at 6 volts?
He was using an E-core, and it also had very bright output, and at only 30 mA.
10 of these gutted bulbs would only draw 300mA on 12v, or 150 mA on 6 volts, possibly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6f8Etb5QJI
He also has some newer videos out on his channel, you might want to check those also.

You can use a light sensing diode from a garden light connected on a volt meter to test for the light output comparison. It works well and is very easy to do.

I'm still lighting my bathroom and other rooms every night using my JT circuits.
Some led bulbs light better than others, but its hard to beat the flat tops for spreading the light all around. I'm also using the warm white flat tops, or the flat tops that have a darker golden light to them, that look almost like candle lights.

Thanks for sharing with us, keep up the good work.

NickZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on July 22, 2013, 04:06:58 PM

Hi nick, nice to hear from you again, thanks for sharing the information.
Happened to have a solar garden light here and it has a nice light sensor on top, so placed it at same spot on outside of glass bulb covering for each bulb test.
With meter set at 20kohm, the 6 watt cree ungutted placed in socket shows .4 on meter.
With light sensor placed on gutted cree bulb, meter showed 1.37 on meter.
If we divide 1.37 by .4 we get, 3.425 ratio.
And if we multiply 3.425 times the gutted bulb input of 1.1 watts, we get 3.77 watts.
If this is any indicator, it may mean that if the efficiency stayed the same, we would only need 3.77 watts to achieve the 1.37 light sensor meter reading, maybe, hehe.
If a 1.5 kohm base resistor is used on JT circuit and using the secondary capacitor, it cuts exactly in half the current draw compared to without secondary capacitor.
So my guess is, is that the ratio would be almost exactly 50 percent or ratio of 3 on light meter reading, instead of the 3.425 that it shows using the 1kohm resistor for transistor base.
I was laying down earlier trying to figure out what the 100 nanofarad capacitor in series with led bulb is actually doing to lower input by almost half and raise light output by large margin as well.
My only thought at the moment, is that the capacitor may be somehow charging quickly on one phase, then when secondary coil collapses, the capacitor is acting like a battery and adding its voltage/current to the collapsing pulse through leds.
Making them much brighter and in turn, reflecting less load back to primary input coil, which may explain the almost cut in half, current draw.
If anyone has any other ideas on how the capacitor may be interacting with this circuit, much appreciated.
Keep us updated on your garden solar panel tests, sounds good.
peace love light
tyson :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on July 22, 2013, 04:47:33 PM

"My only thought at the moment, is that the capacitor may be somehow charging quickly on one phase, then when secondary coil collapses, the capacitor is acting like a battery and adding its voltage/current to the collapsing pulse through leds."

That very well may be. It may also be similar to the reason that Slayer's Exciter type circuits are so economical on battery draws. As he uses a 1meg resistor, and 4148 diode to achieve his results. Hard to beat 30 mA to brightly light the 2.5 watt gutted Led bulb.

All this would not matter much if using only the grid as the input source, but that all changes when using batteries.

What is the cap value that you are using? I'm always burning up those little green caps on both the AC led bulb circuitry, as well as on the CFLs, when connecting the bulbs to my Ringer 3.0 circuit. As it gives over 1000- 1500v output from a 12v battery.

Maybe a trim pot would also help to further adjust the voltage to find the sweet spot.

Here's a couple pics of some of my circuits. As you know I always liked the Cfls, and I have so many of them. The big tall bulbs are 65 watts Cfl, along with 60 watt incandescent bulb both running on the same Ringer circuit, using only a single TIP 3055 transistor, or also the 2n2222. I love simple circuits.
Lately I've been working on the Tariel Kapanadze or Akula 0083 self runner type circuits.
Although I've had no luck getting them to self run, YET.
Hopefully that will all change, soon.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on July 22, 2013, 06:06:23 PM

The capacitor is acting as a DC blocking element thus isolating the adc current path directly to the LED. Remember the JT wavefoms tend to be a little unstable for want of a better term, displaying a rather unusual complex pulse type waveform with AC properties. Some degree of experimentation will indeed reveal a sweet spot as mentioned and the capacitor value will further aid the best output coupling to the LED. The LED is also it's own DC retifier of course. The JT waveforms can be very complex in nature and also rich in harmonic content, the very nature makes repeat circuit design results vary considerably. tunning each circuit will attain the best possible results so you are well on your way here to produce an effecient and economical circuit design. Good work...Crow

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on July 23, 2013, 02:49:03 AM

Hi nick, awesome lights you have there, thanks for tips and good luck on the self runner.
Hi crow, thanks for the explanation, maybe another way of saying a similar thing, i tend to need a simpler visualization method to comprehend how something works, words are not sufficient for me, so i try and visualize it in mind.
So, if we base the efficiency off the light sensor comparative numbers, this light is around 120 lumens per watt.
Tried 12 volts, though this coil/core seems to like around 4 volts input for best efficiency so far.
Lowered the base resistor to 750 ohms and draws around 360 milliamps at 3.8 volts input and numbers work out to similar, 120 lumens per watt.
At this input of 1.36 watts, based on light sensor numbers, led bulb is probably around 164 lumens.
Nice useful light for any purpose.
peace love light
tyson :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on July 23, 2013, 03:26:36 PM

The higher 12v could be driving the circuit into saturation, do you have a scope to view the waveforms.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on July 23, 2013, 06:44:13 PM

Hi crow, do not have a scope and would guess at least the copper is saturated, not so sure about the ferrite core.
It has very little copper wire on it, maybe a ferrite half or full core from TV will work better with 12 volts.
Then again, this particular ferrite flyback salvaged from TV, was wound for lighting up gutted cfl's previously, whereas leds do not need such high voltage spikes.
Think i will take apart another ferrite TV flyback i have sitting here and rewind that one for 12 volts, which will probably mean, more turns for primary or whatever ratio is best.
Ideally, the perfect coil wind ratios to achieve resonance would be good.
peace love light
tyson :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on July 24, 2013, 07:55:44 AM

Youre doing a fine job experimenting, just keep your eye on the base drive current at higher voltage though... better to use a preset pott for adjustments. Unless you already do so of course. Kind Regards Crow

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on July 24, 2013, 10:12:13 PM

Hi crowclaw, thanks for the kind words and the helpful tips, are you building anything yourself, if so, would love to see anything you have to share.
Well, decided to test a TV ferrite yoke core, which comes with two separate halves.
This ferrite core is working more efficiently than the TV flyback ferrite core.
This yoke also has the same winding turn ratio, 20 to 1, as the flyback core and same turns, secondary has 200 turns per layer, 2 layers for 400 turns 30 awg.
Primary has 40 bifilar turns, 24 awg.
The light sensor ratio is better.
Gutted cree 6 watt led bulb, meter shows 1.3 on meter compared to .4 for AC wall powered bulb.
Which is 3.25 ratio.
Input of .8 watts using same, 1kohm base resistor.
3.25 times .8 equals 2.6 watts.
So if efficiency stays the same, it should only require 2.6 watts to achieve around 450 lumens.
So at this .8 watt input, 4 volt - 200 milliamp, it is outputting around 139 lumens.
So based on the sensor numbers, light output is around 173 lumens per watt, keep in mind, the bulb powered from the line AC, is only 75 lumens per watt.
Not sure if fully winding this ferrite TV yoke will add any efficiency,
all thoughts appreciated.
Think I'll experiment with 4 volt input for awhile, until no more efficiency can be squeezed out.
peace love light
tyson :)

Edited the lumens to 173 lumens per watt based on light sensor numbers, let me know if the number calcs seem off.

Also, the same 100 nanofarad non-polarized capacitor is in series with the led bulb at secondary coil, cap is from cfl circuitry, not sure of its voltage rating.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on July 25, 2013, 07:57:25 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a38_EN3U_pc&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a38_EN3U_pc&feature=youtu.be)
Hi folks, here is a video of the latest ferrite TV yoke core version.
As said, based on the light sensor numbers, relative to a non-modified cree 6 watt led bulb, the calculations show about 173 lumens per watt.
Gutted led bulb in video is around 140 lumens light output at 800 milliwatts input.
Let me know folks what you think about these results and what you folks think about these lumen numbers.
I know lynxsteam with his lynx joule ringer, with jouleseekers help in testing, achieved 114 lumens per watt.
peace love light
tyson ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on July 26, 2013, 03:40:59 PM

Very encouraging resuslts and good progress. Ideally we need to know the specifications for the LED's used in the Cree Lamps i.e. their maximum permissible drive current for rated luminance output! taking into account that they are working from an AC line voltage and hence using a converter circuit to hold a stable operating current. These lamps have to work at varried temperatures so its important to hold a constant current through the LED's to prevent thermal runaway. The converter circuit also takes a portion of the total current and hence wattage which also applies to the JT drive circuit of course. It is the actual safe region LED current that is important in case they are being over or under driven! I'm not keen on using digital meters around pulse circuits as results can be missleading, an analogue meter would be prefered (see Bill_ Ha Ha) Don't be tempted to measure the LED current through an unmodified Cree bulb due to hazardous voltages!!!
So to sum up... you're making excellent progress with your experiments LED's will give more light output the harder you drive them, but to maintain their life expenctancy have a safe working limit avoiding thermal runaway problems. You could also experiment with very simple buck boost circuits as an alternative, (do a Google search)
My attentions recently have centred around inductive power transfer and solar energy projects, many of my JT experiments still remain within this thread going way way back.

Kind Regards Crow

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on July 26, 2013, 04:43:36 PM

Sky:
Although I wind both halves of my yoke cores with a secondary coil to use on gutted Cfls, I find that it not really needed for leds bulbs, as too high a voltage can damage the internal circuits, especially the small green Ac caps, or the led bulbs themselves.
The Lyxnsteam's version of the Lasersaber's 3.0 circuit is probably the most useful circuit out, for practical lighting of ungutted Ac bulbs, like the Utilitec 7.5 watt, or the Cree bulbs, also.
I use the ferrite beads to make my Ringer core, as they are free from old monitors and Tvs, and are available to me. Pictured below.
Both pictures are of ferrite circuits cores used on my Ringer circuit. I normally use the TIP 3055 or similar transistor, as I've burnt out several of my 2n3055 very quickly for some reason.
The Ringer circuit is a modified JT circuit, using only a single transistor, and no other components. Hard to beat, for simplicity, and efficiency, as well. About 10- 12 volts works best for me, without any over heating of the transistor.
But, for gutted Ac Led bulbs 4 volts lead acid batteries, work fine, even without any JT circuit.

I'm surprised that you are able to obtain higher light output (higher lumins) from the Cree bulb, but remember that it can also burn it out in time, if using too high a voltage.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on July 26, 2013, 08:44:30 PM

Hi crow, thanks for kind words and tips, though based on voltage drop of battery compared to straight dc loads, the digital meter is probably close to accurate.
Hi nick, thanks for sharing your thoughts.
The cree leds are not outputting higher lumens, the circuit is just using the input watts more efficiently (lumens per watt).
Certainly it seems, the 100 nanofarad capacitor in series with led bulb is helping greatly.
With this setup, i can switch the secondary output leads around and the led bulb is only slightly brighter the opposite way.
Yes, already had in mind next, to wind the ferrite yoke as you show, though am going to replicate the turns ratio of this original setup.
Which is actually a 10 to 1 ratio, 40 primary turns to 400 secondary turns.
So am going to have 200 secondary 30awg. turns per yoke core half and 20 bifilar turns per side.
Goal is to see if having the copper closer to the core and spread out more evenly over the entire core, will yield more efficient lumens per watt at 4 volts input, 12 volt testing may come later on.
I read online, that cree has managed to test a 250 lumen per watt led, so this circuit is approaching that with much less efficient leds.
Will post results when finished rewinding the yoke core.
peace love light
tyson :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 26, 2013, 11:21:55 PM

Quote from: SkyWatcher123 on July 26, 2013, 08:44:30 PM

With this setup, i can switch the secondary output leads around and the led bulb is only slightly brighter the opposite way.

tyson :)

Interesting. I have found, using the modified flash circuit boards, that output polarity makes no difference in light output. (Same on the Jeanna circuit) I mark all of the boards for polarity when modding them but, just for the heck of it, when I was wiring the gutted Cree bulb, i switched the wires and, no difference.

Just for whatever that might be worth.

Nick, Tyson, great work. I might try adding an output cap as well just to see what it does with the flash circuits. As I mentioned in an earlier post, Gadget was placing a ceramic cap in series to the transistor base and he said it helped lower the amp draw without hurting the light output. (If I remember that correctly.) I will look up what value cap he was using. So much testing to do and so little time.

Keep up the great work fellows. I am working on a new project this evening that, if it works, I will post here. If it does work, I think it will be really cool.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on July 27, 2013, 12:22:52 PM

Thanks Bill:
What I may try next is to see how to incorporate a feed-back path from the secondary coil of the Ringer circuits to a drop down ac to dc adapter, like a wall adapter. Then to send that back to the JT circuit's input run battery, to see if it can be recharged, while the circuit is providing some light output, as well.
Why use a wall adapter? Because I've found that since they are made for 110v Ac (in my country), and my Ringer circuits are also made to light 110v ac bulbs, the wall adapters will effectively drop the HV to about the right level of low voltage Dc, (about 7 to 13v), depending on which adapter is used, in order to charge the run battery back.
I find that I can charge cell phones, AAA to D cell batteries and 4 volt to 12 v lab that way. Why not try to feed back some juice back into the circuit run battery at the same time to see what happens. My Ringer circuit's secondary cores output over 1000v, so, there should be more that enough voltage to do so, although not all that much current. Anyways.... just a thought, as I'm always looking for the "self runner", and not just a JT that light a couple of Leds bulbs.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 28, 2013, 03:16:59 PM

Nick:

Funny you should mention feedback. OK, I tried an idea this weekend supplied by TK in a comment a month or so ago where he suggested using the AA battery as the core for a JT. I decided to try this using the Jeanna circuit high voltage JT circuit. I spent many hours this weekend building this and...I can't get the circuit to work at all! Not even as an aircore! (I figure if the battery does not work as a core, I can just slide in a high perm ferrite rod) The transistor (tip3055) just gets hot and I get 0 output no matter what I use for the base resistor.

This is not any sort of proof that a battery can not be used for the core, as I think it can. It certainly has iron in the case as we can hold them in place using neos so, it should output something even if not very efficient. I have built many of the Jeanna circuits and this is the first time I have had this problem. I even swapped in a new tip3055 in case the first one was bad....no luck.

Feedback: I think that it is very possible that one could use "Inductive Feedback" (My new term) to send some of the energy from the collapsing mag. field to the battery when the circuit switches off. Now, maybe the battery will not store this energy....maybe it will aid in making the battery last longer...or maybe it will make the battery run down faster....who knows? I will not know until I can figure out what is wrong with my circuit!

Anyway, I think this was a brilliant idea from TK and it deserves others to attempt this to see what happens. I will continue to try to fix my circuit. Here are some photos....and I will post a video later when it gets uploaded.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on July 28, 2013, 04:33:14 PM

There are a number of things I would try. First the magnets are a neat idea for making the connection but you know how magnets can affect the cores of JTs, you might be killing the effect with the magnets. Next, I have found with cylindrical forms that it seems to work better if the primary (thicker, shorter wire) is wound on the outside of the secondary rather than on the inside. Finally I have had iffy results with TIP3055, some work and some don't. Why don't you try replacing the transistor with another one, even a 2n2222a, just to see if the basic circuit will oscillate..

Just some ideas... it's cool that you built it. I have one that works pretty well but it's wound on a ferrite bead that I slip over the AAA battery.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 28, 2013, 09:25:11 PM

Quote from: TinselKoala on July 28, 2013, 04:33:14 PM
There are a number of things I would try. First the magnets are a neat idea for making the connection but you know how magnets can affect the cores of JTs, you might be killing the effect with the magnets. Next, I have found with cylindrical forms that it seems to work better if the primary (thicker, shorter wire) is wound on the outside of the secondary rather than on the inside. Finally I have had iffy results with TIP3055, some work and some don't. Why don't you try replacing the transistor with another one, even a 2n2222a, just to see if the basic circuit will oscillate..

Just some ideas... it's cool that you built it. I have one that works pretty well but it's wound on a ferrite bead that I slip over the AAA battery.

http://youtu.be/pCeFKLeNIW4 (http://youtu.be/pCeFKLeNIW4)

Above is the video link.

TK:

I was hoping to surprise everyone with this cool little device but...it was not to be. Great suggestions however, I did remove the magnets from the connections, and I also used 2 different tip 3055's from 2 different sources and, none of the windings overlap another. This is wound just as I have my other Jeanna circuits on a toroid. Each winding is separated by the little O-rings on the tube. I checked for continuity beteen the HV leads prior to hot gluing them to make sure my connections from the 26 mag wire and the 22 wire were good. They were. Usually when I have problems that is where it is....hard to clean the insulation from the mag wire sometimes but, I burned it and then sanded it and checked it.

I will use another transistor in there just to see if that outputs something. Both transistors getting hot sounds like a short somewhere. The resistor stays cool and, I even added a vr in the circuit to add up to 5k ohms and it changed nothing.

Very disappointing as I believe your idea has a lot of merit and should be explored by others as well. This all seemed so simple when I began work on it Friday...ha ha.

Thanks,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on July 29, 2013, 04:52:49 AM

Hi folks, Hi pirate, would try winding the 2 wires together, bifilar.
Have not increased efficiency yet on the cree light, seems the yoke core is the best runner so far.
peace love light
tyson :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on July 29, 2013, 05:11:05 AM

@Pirate

Dish the base connection and see if the transistor is still getting hot, if not check the base resistance and increase it to start with. What is the current draw!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 29, 2013, 08:47:41 PM

Tyson:

Thanks, I will consider that. There are actually three coils on this tube though.

Crow:

Good suggestions. I will check the amp draw which I suspect is high as the transistor heats up quite a bit. I can run my other "Jeanna" circuits for 10-20 hours and the transistor stays nice and cool. I will try that with the base as well.

Thanks,

Bill

PS TK, you may be exactly correct about the magnet connectors. I did try it for a very short time without them but, only to see if I got anything out of the circuit...I did not check to see if the transistor still heated. Those neos are magnetizing the entire battery case and so will not allow for the field to collapse.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 29, 2013, 09:27:00 PM

Here is a photo for those that might not be familiar with the "Jeanna" circuit JT.

The 3 winds and the 13 winds are 22 ga. and the 400 winds are 26 ga. mag wire.

Bill

***EDIT*** On the output from the mag. wire, I soldered and anchored 22 ga. (Yellow) wire which would be more robust for flexing and moving around. These become the output leads. ***EDIT***

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on July 30, 2013, 12:25:53 AM

Hi folks, Hi pirate, i see, then you may want to try a non-polarized capacitor in parallel with base resistor, like the super joule ringer used.
It's how i got the air core coil radiant charger (alexkor charger) to work, which is just two wires wound together, 24 awg. bifilar, on top of a cardboard tube close to toilet roll size.
peace love light
tyson ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 30, 2013, 01:24:19 AM

Quote from: SkyWatcher123 on July 30, 2013, 12:25:53 AM
Hi folks, Hi pirate, i see, then you may want to try a non-polarized capacitor in parallel with base resistor, like the super joule ringer used.
It's how i got the air core coil radiant charger (alexkor charger) to work, which is just two wires wound together, 24 awg. bifilar, on top of a cardboard tube close to toilet roll size.
peace love light
tyson ;D

Tyson:

Good advice. That sounds like what Gadget was doing a few years ago in his JT circuits. Did you say you got your non-polarized cap from a salvaged CFL? I have a box full of burned out CFL's... all sizes too. Thank you for the idea. Lidmotor posted a comment on my video saying that he tried this a few years ago (battery as the core) with a regular JT and he could not make it work. I may end up just moving the bat. from the tube and sticking it along the side and using some ferrite in there.

we will see.

Thanks,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on July 30, 2013, 05:53:39 AM

Hi pirate, the cap on my alexcor air coil charger is using a 100 nanofarad 50 volt i think from the shack, sure cfl caps would work also.
Since me kind of stalled at the moment with ideas for enhancing cree bulb efficiency, will try this AA or AAA rechargeable core idea.
Is the idea, that with the AA cell as a core, that it might polarize itself being in the core position in some extra efficient way, that would be cool.
Have to dig up a plastic sleeve to slide the battery into.
Then will probably make 1 or 2 layers of 30 awg., then on top that, a layer or two of 24awg. bifilar.
Or maybe should just try the 24awg. bifilar first and power an led off E and C or just see how it is feeding back anything.
We'll see what happens.
peace love light
tyson :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: conradelektro on July 31, 2013, 04:18:00 AM

Using a battery as a core for a Joule Thief coil is like using an air core. That means one needs many more windings than with an iron or ferrite core.

Also core size matters a lot.

An air core diameter of 50 mm allows to run a Joule Thief with a 30 turn bifilar winding.

And as Slider shows in his video a core size of about 12 mm (AAA battery) needs a 120 turn bifilar winding.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjV2qG3xO5o

In case you want a third winding for a high Voltage output, the air core coil has to be big. Coil diameter 70 mm, coil length 300 mm, 1200 windings for the third high Voltage coil, 15 to 20 bifilar winding for the Joule Thief.

Greetings, Conrad

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 31, 2013, 09:10:55 PM

Conrad:

That is probably correct for an air core. The thing is, I am using an iron core as the battery has a good bit of iron in it evidenced by how I can use my magnet battery holders to attach them to my projects. Now, it may not be that much iron and it may have terrible permeability properties making it closer to an air core.

I do not disagree at all that it might work if I had more than my 400 windings on the hv side.

Thank you.

@ All:

Lidmotor just posted a video where he got this to work using a button cell and an AAA battery also:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpGgB2gxxQk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpGgB2gxxQk)

Man, he does great work over there.

Bill

PS Slider has posted this video where he uses the battery as a core as well. He did this in response to Lidmotor's video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjV2qG3xO5o (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjV2qG3xO5o)

***EDIT***

Apologies to Conrad. I just now noticed that you already posted Sliders video link. Sometimes I just need to slow down and pay more attention. Sorry man.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 04, 2013, 01:01:44 PM

http://youtu.be/d31iEWBMh3M (http://youtu.be/d31iEWBMh3M)

Here is a short video on how to make our universal magnetic battery connectors. I have been using these for years and have refined the procedure and materials so now they are cheaper to make and work better. Lidmotor mentioned these in one of his recent videos and I thought that it might be a good idea to show folks how to make them in case they did not know.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on August 04, 2013, 01:33:44 PM

Nice video Bill. One advantage that I can see in going that route is that any 1.5v battery will work on it. AAA to D size cell will work, without being restricted to use just one size of battery, as when using the ready made plastic battery holders. Plus it looks cool, also.

NickZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 04, 2013, 02:18:04 PM

Thanks Nick.

Yes, that is true...it gives great flexibility for those folks (like me) that get discarded batteries from their friends. I wanted to add in the video about using small neos to mount the battery in the project case. I forgot while filming. This also allows any battery to just be "stuck" inside the case and you are good to go.

I got the magnets while shopping here at the Overunity store. One of the links there had these magnets very cheap. I bought 100 of them. Very strong little boogers.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: bmind23 on August 05, 2013, 08:01:00 AM

If I had a time. I willl show you my version of joule thief. Fluorescent lamp 23W 230V flickering on 1F supercapacitor. Lamp is unmodified

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 06, 2013, 01:37:58 AM

bmind:

You should post it, we would love to see it.

Hey all:

I wonder if we can light a 9000 lumen (yes 9000) led chip?

http://dx.com/p/100w-6500k-9000lm-led-white-light-module-white-dc-32-34v-155708 (http://dx.com/p/100w-6500k-9000lm-led-white-light-module-white-dc-32-34v-155708)

You know we are going to have to try it right?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: bmind23 on August 06, 2013, 08:13:03 AM

Sorry for my english
This is my joule thief. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-hTzNiLHb. Fluorescent lightbulb filckering on 1F supercapacitor.
Correct link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-hTzNiLHbA

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 06, 2013, 09:03:34 PM

Quote from: bmind23 on August 06, 2013, 08:13:03 AM
Sorry for my english
This is my joule thief. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-hTzNiLHb (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-hTzNiLHb). Fluorescent lightbulb filckering on 1F supercapacitor.
Correct link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-hTzNiLHbA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-hTzNiLHbA)

Nice. What was the voltage on that 1F supercap? 2.7 volts? You can light that bulb very nicely on only 1.5 volts (or less) using the Jeanna Circuit or a modified flash circuit. It will be on all of the time, and bright too. Very good job for that small toroid though. Well done.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TEKTRON on August 06, 2013, 11:29:41 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on August 06, 2013, 09:03:34 PM
Nice. What was the voltage on that 1F supercap? 2.7 volts? You can light that bulb very nicely on only 1.5 volts (or less) using the Jeanna Circuit or a modified flash circuit. It will be on all of the time, and bright too. Very good job for that small toroid though. Well done.

Bill

Pirate, would you be so kind to repost both of those schematics. TIA, John

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 07, 2013, 01:31:20 AM

Quote from: TEKTRON on August 06, 2013, 11:29:41 PM
Pirate, would you be so kind to repost both of those schematics. TIA, John

John:

Here is the Jeanna Circuit. The flash circuits are very board specific depending on if you have a Kodak, Fuji AA, Fuji AAA, or no name surplus board. If you find or have a board, I will be happy to try to tell you how to modify it.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: bmind23 on August 07, 2013, 02:42:16 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on August 06, 2013, 09:03:34 PM
Nice. What was the voltage on that 1F supercap? 2.7 volts? You can light that bulb very nicely on only 1.5 volts (or less) using the Jeanna Circuit or a modified flash circuit. It will be on all of the time, and bright too. Very good job for that small toroid though. Well done.

Bill

Thanks for good comment. The voltage was 4.8V, but it is working on 1,2V also. Primary and secondary of toroid have 20 turns. Thanks for Jeanna Circuit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TEKTRON on August 07, 2013, 10:01:51 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on August 07, 2013, 01:31:20 AM
John:

Here is the Jeanna Circuit. The flash circuits are very board specific depending on if you have a Kodak, Fuji AA, Fuji AAA, or no name surplus board. If you find or have a board, I will be happy to try to tell you how to modify it.

Bill

Thanks Bill, I have the parts. When I get some time, I'll play too. John

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Hope on August 09, 2013, 01:41:42 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on November 20, 2008, 03:07:58 AM
Can anyone of you electronics guys answer a question for me concerning the Joule Thief? OK my question is this:
The plans I have call for a 1k resistor. From everything I have learned in electronics thus far, resistors limit the flow and dissipate overage as heat. This seems wasteful to me since the idea of this device is to improve efficiency, as in use all or most of the available energy in a battery or similar system. I am wondering why the resistor is needed? If it gets "warm" at all it is wasting power correct? Is this required to protect the transistor?

I would really appreciate any input here as this is my first Joule Thief. I know they have been around a while and I have a pretty good idea on how they work, at least in relation to the lighting of LEDs. I am also going to experiment with these using supercaps as the power source both with, and without batteries. This will all be tied into my work with earth batteries from which I can already light an LED.

If I need the resistor to protect the transistor, then fine, that's the way it is. It just seems a little counter intuitive from my limited electronics knowledge at this point. Thank you.

Bill

YES YES Heat is wasting your energy gain. a magnetically quenched spark gap can do that job. Perhaps in a gas field or vacuum best. Two bowl shaped fields to contain the gained field would be efficient.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on August 09, 2013, 12:50:59 PM

Bill:
The Joule Ringer circuits use no resistor, although a trim pot can be incorporated. Those Ringer circuits have also been used to light even the newer type of single Led ac bulbs. Like the type that you mentioned earlier, and they have been shown to work well with them.
There are some videos out showing that.
I still am interested in finding the self running aspect of these circuits, as the feed-back path back to a battery, to recharge and maintain it up, should be feasible. Or only needing a battery to jump start the circuit, and once started not needing any more.
Yet no one has shown a self runner. That is still running...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 09, 2013, 08:00:16 PM

Nick:

Thanks, I'll have a look at the ringer and the super ringer circuits to see if it is something I might want to build. If it is wound on a rod then, i like that as the winding is soooo much easier than a toroid. That is a plus by itself. No resistor you say? I have heard of this circuit, of course, but have not payed much attention to it...I probably should. I believe they run on 12 volts? If this is true, then probably why it did not interest me. Maybe one could be made to run on 1.5 volts?

Thanks,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on August 09, 2013, 08:30:53 PM

The Joule Ringer circuit designed by Lasersaber is a single transistor circuit using no other component. It can be made equally with a 2n2222, as with the 2n3055.
Although the 2n3055 transistor is less efficient than a 2n2222, it can handle more current. But, if you're thinking of winding a coil it can be done on a E-core, a straight ferrite rod, or even using several ferrite beads to make a rod with, or even a rod made of several 1/2 to 1 inch size torroids together to form a tube. This is the easiest of any circuit to make, and can be used from 1v to 12v, or even higher voltages.
In the picture below I'm using a ferrite rod (1/4 by 3 inches) obtained from a old transistor radio, and I'm also showing the bigger rod which was made using 4 ferrite beads from old crt monitors, or Tv sets that were discarded. You can see how simple this circuit is. If anyone is interested I'll upload a wiring diagram in my next post.
It can be used to light Led, Cfl, or even incandescent bulbs.

The second picture is of a JR 3.0 circuit connected to a tv yoke coil lighting both an Led bulb and a Cfl halo tube.
It can light incandescent bulbs to 50 watts, but does best with the 7watt incandescent bulbs.
To use only 1.5v batteries, the secondary coil have to be of several hundred winds, similar to the Jeanna Light.
Or several AA batteries can be used to bring the voltage up to any voltage needed.
Like in the last picture where I'm showing a AA holder made of 1/2 inch pvc pipe for 6 or more AA batteries. It was used for the Joule Ringer "cross-over" circuit.
All fun circuits...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on August 11, 2013, 01:52:30 PM

Here is a recent video by Lidmotor, showing a button cell powered Exciter in action. However the tiny source battery located inside the Exciter's secondary coil is not being recharged by the wireless or wired connection, and still drains in time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpGgB2gxxQk&list=UU9jbwyyAum79LXTNCgHeuFg

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 11, 2013, 06:38:52 PM

Here is a little HVJT light I made for my Daughter's 24th birthday present. It looks cool and is very bright and I think she will like it.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 12, 2013, 09:03:56 PM

Quote from: NickZ on August 11, 2013, 01:52:30 PM
Here is a recent video by Lidmotor, showing a button cell powered Exciter in action. However the tiny source battery located inside the Exciter's secondary coil is not being recharged by the wireless or wired connection, and still drains in time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpGgB2gxxQk&list=UU9jbwyyAum79LXTNCgHeuFg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpGgB2gxxQk&list=UU9jbwyyAum79LXTNCgHeuFg)

Nick:

Yes, I saw this. He does some great work over there. I still think that there should be a way to feed back some of that inductive energy to the battery...it may have to be polarized in some way...who knows? Maybe, there is no way to do it.

I did some research on the Joule Ringer circuits on Laser's website. man, according to his numbers, that thing uses a lot of power. I think it was the 2.0 where he said it kills a new 9 volt battery in 5 minutes...and the light is very dim for another 5. One of the circuits was drawing 3 amps! To me, this is just like using a transformer or an inverter from a solar cell set-up. I also do not see the feedback arrangement as in a JT circuit so as to be able to totally (or near so) drain the batteries?

I agree that the lights are brighter but, he is using 12 volts and 3 amps. Heck, if I went to 3 volts instead of 1.5 my lights would be twice as bright but the amp draw would still be in the low mA range. I guess I am missing something with this circuit, or circuits. I checked out the 3.0 and it still has a very high amp draw for my tastes. Probably very useful if you have solar and do not care about the power draw because it is free. I just don't see this being able to run a light for a month on a single battery.

Your circuits look great though. Are you using them in any lights at this time?

Thanks,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 12, 2013, 10:02:49 PM

I just ordered a 2500 lumen led chip module. I want to see if I can get it to light up using high voltage/high frequency. pretty cheap for an experiment and free shipping too:

http://dx.com/p/7041-20w-1500-2500lm-6000-6500k-white-light-square-shaped-10s2p-integrated-led-module-33-35v-197194 (http://dx.com/p/7041-20w-1500-2500lm-6000-6500k-white-light-square-shaped-10s2p-integrated-led-module-33-35v-197194)

(http://img.dxcdn.com/productimages/sku_197194_1.jpg) <<<<Click to see image

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on August 13, 2013, 08:44:57 PM

Bill
I think that you are missing a little something. As the Joule Ringer Circuit can light several 7.5 watt Ac 110 volt LED bulbs on 12 volt battery, which can be recharged from a small solar panel. Consuming about half as much of what the same bulbs would consume if on a grid source.
It can light several bulbs on a single transistor no resistor circuit, and can actually light up ones house, if enough bulbs are used. One circuit can light as many as 12 7.5 watt LED bulbs, and it is one of the most useful circuits I have seen to date.
Here is a video I had made a while back, about a year ago, but I had forgotten to do anything with it. It was one of my first tries at making a Joule Lamp. I just refound it, hiding in one of my cameras. The camera battery gave out at the end of the video, so sorry for the cut off ending.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TQfP5IR_AI&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TQfP5IR_AI&feature=youtu.be)

Here is Lasersaber showing what his 3.0 circuit can do. Of course the use of LED bulbs is the way to go. And it will be interesting to see what something like this circuit can do with the bulbs like the high lumin one that you just ordered, Bill.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcFHZMhnV2g&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcFHZMhnV2g&feature=youtu.be)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 13, 2013, 10:16:43 PM

Nick:

Thanks. I will watch the video. Of course it is very possible that I am missing something...it happens all the time to me. I will check out your vid and respond. I appreciate your posting it. Are you seeing those high amp draws that LS mentioned on his website? Or is it that those "high amp draws" are for 1 or 7 bulbs making no difference?

Like I said, I will watch.

Thanks again,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on August 14, 2013, 01:15:54 AM

The 3 amp current draw was due to a problem that a resent poster had with his set up. Which he was looking for help on. He has since resolved it, now lighting two 7.5 watt bulbs, and drawing less than an amp. Which is about right as each of those AC 110v bulbs can draw between 500 to 600 mA each, at 12v.
All in all the Joule Ringer circuit is very useful, and can oscillate and light LED bulbs on less than a volt, if that is the objective. There is always room for improvement, which is still an ongoing thing. But, compared to what a regular inverter draws from a battery connected to a solar system, this circuit is much more economical to build and to use.
It can also be designed for 4 volts systems, and up to about 15 volts, if needed.
It is basically a version of a modified Joule Thief, and it is why I mention it here.
I use it with 7 watt incandescent bulbs, and love it.
Here is a pic of it lighting both a 60 watt incandescent, as well as a 25 watt CFL bulb on 12v.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 14, 2013, 01:41:17 AM

Quote from: NickZ on August 14, 2013, 01:15:54 AM
The 3 amp current draw was due to a problem that a resent poster had with his set up. Which he was looking for help on. He has since resolved it, now lighting two 7.5 watt bulbs, and drawing less than an amp. Which is about right as each of those AC 110v bulbs can draw between 500 to 600 mA each, at 12v.
All in all the Joule Ringer circuit is very useful, and can oscillate and light LED bulbs on less than a volt, if that is the objective. There is always room for improvement, which is still an ongoing thing. But, compared to what a regular inverter draws from a battery connected to a solar system, this circuit is much more economical to build and to use.
It can also be designed for 4 volts systems, and up to about 15 volts, if needed.
It is basically a version of a modified Joule Thief, and it is why I mention it here.
I use it with 7 watt incandescent bulbs, and love it.
Here is a pic of it lighting both a 60 watt incandescent, as well as a 25 watt CFL bulb on 12v.

Nick:

Thanks. I posted a comment on your video and, I will say it again here...that is bright as heck! Obviously, my 1.5v (or much less) HVJT circuits can not do that. I found a good source for the rods so I may try one to see. If I can use it on an AA battery I don't really care how many windings I need to make to do that. I am always searching for that happy medium between light output and longevity. The light in your video was superbright.

Thanks,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on August 14, 2013, 02:15:35 AM

Thanks for your comments Bill. I do not know for sure just how much current the 65 watt CFL was using, as it was built a while back, but it really was probably drawing more than the 500 mA that I mentioned on the video, more like a amp or so.
I am more concerned about obtaining the most useable amount of light output possible, and not trying to keep the current draw low. My objective is to light my house, which I am able to do now, to a fair degree, even for free by using small solar panels along with the circuits that I been working on.
Although obtaining the highest amount of light output is what I am after, I am still very interested in a self running system, although for now this is what I can do with what I have to work with. And it is still free energy. Since as usual, my cost are zilch, as it is all recycled discarded materials that I obtain for free.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on August 14, 2013, 06:16:59 PM

Here is another video of my Joule Ringer set up running on 12v. I can only imagine what it could do with the right high powered LED bulb instead of the incandescent.
Those that have old crt monitors or tv can use the ferrite beads that come in them.
6 to 8 of those type beads joined together into a straight rod, along with a 2n3055 or TIP 3055 transistor like is shown in the video, can make a decent working and very cheap to build Joule Ringer circuit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chEwqvtJUOA

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on August 15, 2013, 06:58:18 PM

Hi folks, Hi nick, thanks for sharing.
Yesterday, somehow ended up watching many lynxsteam videos about his air core joule ringer and realized he was running certain dimmable bulbs very well.
So, i wonder if a cored joule ringer or air core will run the cree led dimmable bulbs good, i have 4 of those bulbs now, plus the gutted one, hehe.
Have to dig up my 4 ferrite bead joule ringer and try it.
peace love light
tyson ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on August 15, 2013, 07:06:49 PM

Quote from: NickZ on August 14, 2013, 06:16:59 PM
Here is another video of my Joule Ringer set up running on 12v. I can only imagine what it could do with the right high powered LED bulb instead of the incandescent.
Those that have old crt monitors or tv can use the ferrite beads that come in them.
6 to 8 of those type beads joined together into a straight rod, along with a 2n3055 or TIP 3055 transistor like is shown in the video, can make a decent working and very cheap to build Joule Ringer circuit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chEwqvtJUOA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chEwqvtJUOA)

Nice results
can you try an ordinary beach sand as core.... tried a ring magnet in the beach to collect some but unfortunately nothing magnetized so I just scoop sand ... dried it up and placed in a plastic sheet inside a ssg coil ..... my jr is down at the moment as the 2n3055 fried after a loose connection several times during the test..... but the output 200 ma for 8 pcs led 220 v 5 w is good news for me

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on August 15, 2013, 11:52:20 PM

Sky
The big air core as shown and offered for sale by Lynxsteam does seam to work very well, but needs to be made about the same size that he is making them, to work comparable to the much small ferrite rods cores.
There are many sources of ferrite available even for free as I have mentioned.
And, if lighting incandescent bulbs is the thing, then ferrite cores are where its at, as they provide quite a bit more punch, current wise. But, for CFL, or LED bulbs, air cores will do fine, they just need to be built up with bigger cores sizes and
with many more turns.

Totoalas
Good to hear from you again, it has been a while. I also just fried my Ringers transistor, by the time I smelled it and saw the smoke, it was too late. Oh well, another one goes to the trash. At least there is just one component to toss out.
I find that the TIP 3055 seam to hold up better than the 2n3055, of which I have destroyed my share of, but when there is a short circuit, none of them hold up well.

I would really like to find a proper way to feed back enough juice to make these circuits self run, even perhaps without a battery, or just to jumps start the circuit with it, only. That is what I am working towards.
By the time we figure it out, our oriental friends will be selling them cheaper than we can make these devices.
Check this 12v to 110v 20watt inverter out. It can be bought for a couple of dollars, can you beat that...
http://dealer-lampu.blogspot.com/2013/01/fitting-inverter.html (http://dealer-lampu.blogspot.com/2013/01/fitting-inverter.html)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on August 16, 2013, 12:28:59 AM

Hi nick, thanks for the reply.
I dug up one of the 4 ferrite bead cores and it has 320 turns of 30awg. for the first layer and it had 65 bifilar turns 24awg. on top.
Removed the 65 bifilar turns and am contemplating if i should keep the 30awg. with all those turns or remove it and replace with layer of 24awg..
Since this will only be powering led bulbs, as using what it had previously, could light a 13 watt gutted cfl to just about full brightness, which i think might be overkill, voltage wise, for an led bulb.
Any suggestions welcome, as i think about this, or just test it and see.
Might try both the joule ringer wiring and the meissner wiring, thats why the bifilar for the option.
peace love light
tyson :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on August 16, 2013, 01:33:46 AM

I have burnt out several of my ungutted CFL bulbs as well as the small green AC caps that are found in the LED bulbs by giving them too high a voltage, for long periods of time.
The best thing is to have 110 or 220 volts readings with the bulb on. As applying higher voltages will be sacrificing the current levels, and current is also important, not just voltage like with the Exciter type circuits. Try the 30 gauge first as you already have it on it. It can be changed later. About 10 to 1 ratio is what Lasersaber recommends, for the secondary to primary coil windings. But, leave some extra wire unwound so that you can tune the primary if needed, later.
Here is what you need to do to tune these Joule Ringer circuits to maximum efficiency.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVXzGcyzu6o

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on August 16, 2013, 04:00:50 AM

Hi nick, thanks for the information and video link.
I wired up the 4 ferrite bead using the 320 turns 30 awg. and 65 bifilar turns 24awg., which is around a 5 to 1 ratio., using the meissner circuit first.
Picked up an ecosmart 40 watt dimmable led bulb today and that lights up to full brightness with this circuit, tried the cree 40 watt led dimmable bulb and that does not light up at all with this circuit.
It is drawing 500 milliamps at 12.1 volts or 6.05 watts.
2n3055 transistor gets warm, bulb after 30 minutes gets warm, though no where near the heat that the grid power creates.
On the grid power, you can't touch the heatsink for long without having to pull fingers away, though with this circuit, it's probably less than half the heat and i can hold it all day.
I tried to check volts at bulb while loaded and it shows nothing on AC or DC, though if i quickly touch probes on and off, i can see brief readings of around 30 volts, but no reliable reading, wonder if it is getting to much voltage.
Maybe some more primary winds would help or give the joule ringer wiring a try.
peace love light
tyson :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on August 16, 2013, 12:18:05 PM

@ Skywatcher
Yes, it seams that the internal circuit in some of the LED bulbs do not like some of the Ringers working system, it may just be too high a voltage for them, which can be adjusted by adding or removing turns of wire.
People have had good luck using the Utilitec 7.5 watt bulb, as well as a couple of others.
I get good results on the small incandescent 7 watt bulbs, as I really like the light given off by them, and they work well with the circuit also.
I use an analog meter which does read the voltages at the bulb, although the reading from my circuit goes off the scale and is over 1000 volts, it is more like 1500 volts, or so. But the amp scale has fried on my meter (all of my meters) due to work done with the Exciter circuits.
Anyways, good to hear that you got your circuit up and running.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 17, 2013, 08:51:30 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMftETOpLxM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMftETOpLxM)

I modified a Coleman Lantern for a friend of mine. Now it runs on 1 battery and not eight D cells. He wanted a red filter on it to preserve his night vision....I found a way to do that and it is easily removed.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on August 19, 2013, 12:27:25 AM

Hi pirate, thanks for sharing the video.
Awesome light, very ingenious modifications.
I have an led lantern that i modified sometime back, though putting a cree bulb or similar in, is a great idea.
peace love light
tyson :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 19, 2013, 01:23:22 AM

Tyson:

Thank you very much. I keep finding new uses for these flash circuits, ha ha. This one really zapped me so I know it is a good one.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on August 19, 2013, 02:49:14 PM

Pirate Bill
It is amazing what those little transformers and cap combinations can output from a 1 volt battery. I was also surprised when I got zapped by one of those. Hopefully will not happen again.
Each one of the D cells has almost 10 times more storage capacity than a normal rechargeable AA or AAA. So, your joule thief lamp conversion should run a good long while.
The best way to do it is to make the circuit able to be recharged, by just plugging in a wall adapter, and charging the batteries. Or from a small solar panel, or a from a couple of garden light type solar cells. Those alkaline D cells can be recharged real well, especially at low input amps so they do not blow up or leak. The garden light solar cells output 4v, and about 30 mA.
Now some of those lanterns are being sold that have a small solar panel on the top.

Anyways, nice job Bill. Thanks for sharing

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 19, 2013, 11:02:50 PM

Nick:

Thanks. Yes, these little circuits have bit me probably about 20 times or so now. You would think I would learn right? I don't really use rechargeable bats not because I don't like them, mainly because I get so many free "dead" batteries from friends that I have enough to run all of my lights for over a year. But yes, on that lantern mod, that would be a nice feature....so would the solar cell. So many of those cheap garden lights are around now that getting a few cells from those would be free and do the job nicely i would think. This was just a quick project I did for my friend who is in the Navy and gave me the lantern on Friday. I delivered it to him tonight so, not a bad turnaround for something I have not done before.

I have a little Harbor Freight lantern ($5) I got a few years ago that has that nice conical reflector and 27 leds. It has a hand crank generator on it. I have always wanted to add solar and a supercap to that and now, I am thinkiing, if I can light that 2500 lumen LED module I ordered, that would be perfect for that reflector. So many projects, so little time and money, ha ha.

Keep up the work that you are doing.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MileHigh on August 20, 2013, 12:13:27 AM

Bill:

With the cost of solar panels much cheaper now, let me muse about a project for fun. I don't know if it is affordable because I don't know how much supercaps cost.

You put some solar panels outside or on your roof and they charge a big supercap bank. You could easily program an Arduino as a controller. The setup would be something like solar panels connected to a "Bedini" pulse charger that charges a supercap bank. The Arduino switches the pulse charger on and off and would measure the cap bank voltage to keep it "topped off."

Assume the big supercap bank is in a weatherproof box or in a garage. Then you wire DC power into a few rooms. You use fast-blow fuses at the cap bank source and in the rooms, etc. There is a real danger for fire without the fuses. Wires could easily get white hot then molten without fuses.

So, you have some JT lamps for the living room and the bedroom. I bet you could find an LED TV that's a decent size that runs off a 12-volt input. So that's no problem, you could also have a powerful enough DC to DC converter that outputs 12 volts to power your TV while it sucks energy from the supercap bank, which might be at a much lower voltage.

Finally, if your supercap bank starts to run low during the evening the Arduino could let out a little warning beep to let you know about the impending shutdown.

I just realized that you could probably get a 12-volt big-screen TV at an RV center.

Anyway, you might not be able to run a big-screen TV. An evening where you read and listen to the radio might be doable though. Having "sockets" to power all of your JT lamps then makes them truly homey. You never have to change the batteries, etc.

To do it, it's just a number crunching exercise. How much energy do you need during the evening? Based on that how big a supercap bank, how many panels, etc.

It's kind of a nice idea though. Your evening at home is powered by a bank of supercaps, and they automatically charge the next morning so by the end of the day the supercaps are topped off and ready for the evening.

MileHigh

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MileHigh on August 20, 2013, 12:39:05 AM

There is a little trick that you could do for the Arduino so that it could run for a few years off of a few alkaline D-cells. The monitoring process for the supercap bank voltage would only have to be done say once every five seconds. You could program the Arduino where it runs off a slow clock, and only "wakes up" to check the battery voltage every five seconds. Otherwise it is effectively in suspended animation waiting for the programmable timer inside the chip to tell it to wake up.

So the Arduino power to control the setup is minuscule, so tiny that you can connect it to some ordinary batteries and only have to check it once a year.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 20, 2013, 10:36:45 PM

MH:

Interesting suggestions for sure. However, I live in a small apartment and, having tried a small garden once, discovered that the sun is blocked for all except 2 hours by buildings and fences. Solar on the roof is out of the question.

Even though it has been hot here, my electric bill last month was $37.00 (US) Not bad considering that I have to pay a mandatory $5.00/month recycling fee added to that bill. The lowest I have had here is $28.00 and, the power company told me that is their minimum billing to retain service.

All of my lights used at night inside are run from "dead" batteries which I obtain for free from friends. My computer runs from the mains. I am not trying to save the planet, it will be here long after we have gone, I am trying to save money. It is funny though, the power company has been here 3 times to "inspect" my meter thinking that it must be broken. My neighbor's bill last month for the same size place was well over $100.00. I have plenty of light but wish I could run my heat/air unit from a bank of supercaps or batteries. But then, once I get to $28/month, that is as low as allowed here, so, I have not really put much thought into that.

I see that TK is playing with the Arduino also. I was actually considering getting one to learn with. There are many variants now and a lot of copies that are fake I have read. I suppose the R3 is the place to start?

I am deeply involved in another project at the moment that I have been working on for a while. If it works as I hope, I will be offering it on my website in both kit form and completed units. If not, I will move onto something else.

Are you using the Arduino for anything useful at the moment? One problem I see is that installing it into a project means having to obtain another one to experiment with. Oh well, nothing is free.

Thanks,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MileHigh on August 20, 2013, 11:06:59 PM

Bill:

I don't play with the Arduino but I know about the guts of microcontrollers from way back when. So I can talk some of the talk.

The idea is more of a thought experiment. If every house had solar panels and a giant supercapacitor bank that could store a lot of energy then you could eliminate the hassle associated with batteries. It's probably way too expensive right now. However, if you can imagine something the size of a typical refrigerator and suppose that it had the energy density required then it would be really interesting. Or at least a scaled down version like I stated where you power one or two rooms as a start.

There is still no solution for air conditioners, refrigerators and stoves, etc. If you look up the total annual energy consumption of the continental US and divide that by the population and then converted that into equivalent continuous 24/7 horsepower per person it would be an interesting number. The point being that we can't disconnect ourselves from all of the energy consumed by industry because it's industry that sustains our standard of living. We are industry and industry is us. There is no such thing as truly being "off the grid" if you still go to the store and buy toilet paper.

I am guessing that it takes a few thousand horsepower per capita running 24/7 so sustain our standard of living. So that's like each person has a giant diesel engine strapped to their backs. One day I will crunch the numbers.

MileHigh

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 20, 2013, 11:19:23 PM

MH:

I totally agree with you on your points. I'll go you even one better. (Maybe) Did you ever see those videos where they launch an Estes style rocket into some clouds and, as it goes up, it unreels a very thin wire from a spool? (Like the old wire guided missles.) The other end of the spool is connected to earth ground and.....Bang! A lightning bolt runs down the wire to the ground. Time after time they can repeat this. (only during certain weather conditions of course.) So, that solves the problem of not knowing where lighting will strike. What if a giant, and I mean giant super cap was created by digging a huge circular hole in the ground, and lining the sides with the correct materials and repeating until you get a cap say 1/2 mile in diameter? Have the lighting strikes targeted to the cap and...now you have a huge amount of energy....for free. (Minus the construction costs...cheaper than the Hoover dam) I have always heard scientists claim that there is enough energy in one bolt of lightning to run NY city for more than 1 year. (One strike) But, they never knew where it was going to hit. The next problem was storing it. I say, scale up supercap technology, or something similar, and there you go. Probably easier than going to the moon engineering wise I would think. Now, it should be possible. (Maybe)

Yes, off-the-grid folks still buy and use things made with energy. A lot of folks forget that.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MileHigh on August 21, 2013, 07:54:45 PM

Bill:

Yes I saw something like that on TV. They were examining the "glass tubes" created when the lightning bolts struck the ground and tunneled their way through the sand and melted it. The guy blew through a long air hose to initiate the launch to ensure that he would not become burnt toast.

I'm quite certain that the amount of energy in a single lighting bolt is not equivalent to running New York City for a whole year. The difference would be several orders of magnitude. Is it possible to harvest the energy from lightning bolts? In one sense you could probably do it, but it wouldn't be practical. You figure when lighting is going to strike, it's looking for the (electrical and real) ground to complete the circuit. A giant capacitor like you described would not represent the required electrical ground to the lightning, so the giant capacitor would likely be avoided by the lightning bolts as they seek out the true ground.

But, you never know. What's cool is the fact that lightning comes from the same source as the good old rubbing a balloon and making it stick to the wall trick.

On the artificial side, you can look up clips of electrical substation transformer fires and stuff like that. The "fire" of course is the local grid power shorting through a bad transformer or switch. The amount of sheer raw power and the bursts of energy are amazing to see. In one clip the guy is filming from a few blocks away and the throbbing power and "random electrical violence" is amazing and truly frightening.

MileHigh

Here's a compilation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yX5TIDLvMyw

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 21, 2013, 08:23:40 PM

MH:

Probably not practicle or even possible but, to me, better than spending all that money on a super collider a mile or so in diameter.

I don't understand why that fine wire is not instantly vaporized. Maybe it is but the bolt is already targeted on the ground it represented? I am not sure where they got the energy estimates in a single bolt from...they may not really know.

What I really like is that in all of my science and physics classes, we were taught that "static" electricity is just that...and can't be made to do work. Well, I always believed that until one day, while working on some projects here at the apartment, I was walking across my carpet in the winter wearing socks holding a gutted cfl to use in a JT circuit when the bulb lit up. I stopped and scuffed my feet on purpose and the bulb lit brightly with each scuff. To me, making light in that bulb was work and I figured that what they were teaching was not correct. Then I found that you can charge a cap using static electricity. That cap can be made to do work. The only person in academia I ever heard say this is true is Walter Lewin at MIT. (In his video series)

Oh well, hopefully, one day maybe they can harness some real energy from lightning. Hey, I have a kite...maybe I could go out in a storm and....nawwww...that's been done already, ha ha.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: markdansie on August 22, 2013, 07:05:52 AM

@ Bill and others
I love this tread an wanted to express my appreciation. I do not comment as I have nothing of value to add but I have learned so much
Thank you all
Mark

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on August 22, 2013, 05:51:22 PM

Hi folks,

QuoteOh well, nothing is free.
Thanks,
Bill

Then I guess we owe alot to nature for this air, sun, water, etc., hehe.

And anything is possible, as there are no problems, only solutions.
peace love light
tyson ;) ;) ;) 8)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Dave45 on August 22, 2013, 09:12:11 PM

Step up the voltage
Step up the amperage

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on August 23, 2013, 12:11:58 AM

This may step up the voltage, but not the amps, as it sacrifices the amps to produce the higher voltage. It is a simple inverter circuit.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 23, 2013, 12:20:10 AM

Quote from: NickZ on August 23, 2013, 12:11:58 AM
This may step up the voltage, but not the amps, as it sacrifices the amps to produce the higher voltage. It is a simple inverter circuit.

I would also guess that the amp draw would be fairly high due to the multiple transistors and the 3 resistors.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on August 23, 2013, 01:02:23 AM

It looks like it is an inverter circuit meant to run off of the grid, and convert to 12v output, I think.
It uses two transistors to share the load, and dissipate the heat, and the 1k resistors are used to control the amp draw. So the circuit should also be fairly efficient. The led is an indicator led, and the 4.7k resistor is there to control over-voltage to the led.
So, this circuit is not exactly a Joule Thief. But, is possibly a grid to 12v inverter instead.
Anyways, that's what it looks like to me.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on August 23, 2013, 03:02:50 AM

I'ts a 12 volt DC to 220v AC inverter circuit, nothing special about it's design. In fact if you use an AC transformer with a primary to match your line voltage and a secondary centre tapped at 10v - 0v - 10v it will work fine. the output is not quite sign wave but will power small AC loads,and yes sucks AMPS from your 12v DC battery.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Dave45 on August 23, 2013, 07:07:11 AM

Its the wire gauges, the circuit is nothing special basically works like the zvs
Should be able to step up voltage in one direction and amps in the other.

You could probably us the zvs then smooth it out into dc, even into a dual rail
pull one side of the dual rail into a self loop, power components off the other side of the rail.

Just thought I would put it out there, Im working on a similar setup just a little more complicated.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on August 23, 2013, 12:34:42 PM

quote:
"Should be able to step up voltage in one direction and amps in the other".

If it did you'd really have something, but it doesn't. Not in your posted diagram.
It steps up the voltage in one direction from the 12v battery out (only), but, by sacrificing the amps, not by stepping up the amps. What "other" direction?
The feed back path is something that we are still working on, it may be possible, but up to now it has not been easy to do, for a reason.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Dave45 on August 23, 2013, 08:25:04 PM

QuoteWhat "other" direction?

If you look at the primary circuit there are two transistors, think in electron flow from neg to pos, the transistors each fire a pulse into the outside of the double primary, the bemf from each turn on the gate of the other this causes the oscillation.

The transistor symbol is setup to show conventional flow but is not the way electrons move.

Basically this system is pulsing two primary's use the two primary's to step up voltage on one and current on the other.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 23, 2013, 09:54:27 PM

Dave:

Thanks for posting this circuit. Have you built it? If so, what is the amp draw with a cfl or gutted led bulb? I am still working with 1.5 v (or less) inputs but I always have an eye open for something different. It would be great to see a video of this circuit running something if possible.

Thanks,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on August 24, 2013, 06:02:06 AM

Quote from: Dave45 on August 23, 2013, 08:25:04 PM
If you look at the primary circuit there are two transistors, think in electron flow from neg to pos, the transistors each fire a pulse into the outside of the double primary, the bemf from each turn on the gate of the other this causes the oscillation.

The transistor symbol is setup to show conventional flow but is not the way electrons move.

Basically this system is pulsing two primary's use the two primary's to step up voltage on one and current on the other.

I'll mention this again, nothing special other than a 12 volt DC to 220 volt AC inverter. The principle of operation and circuit_ plus description is explained here:

http://homemadecircuitsandschematics.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/how-to-make-simplest-inverter-circuit.html

I have built many of these for various purposes over the years. The output is not quite a perfect singwave but ok for powering basic stuff. These circuits are around 70% / 75% efficient and draw a few amps from 12 volt supply.
Regards Crow

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on August 24, 2013, 06:11:46 AM

@ Dave45

With respect,
I can't understand where you get this statement from regarding your theory of how the circuit functions?
as you quote "Basically this system is pulsing two primary's use the two primary's to step up voltage on one and current on the other."

Just a corrective technical point... these are transistors having a base connection and not a gate unlike FET devices.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Dave45 on August 24, 2013, 07:18:21 AM

The circuit function is not the main issue, although it needs to pulse two primary's, the zvs might be a better option since it uses fets.

I think the wire gauges are key, we have two primary's one secondary, one primary can be used to step up voltage (large gauge wire to small gauge wire) the other primary can be used to step up amps (small gauge wire to large gauge wire)

No I have not built it, just something Im working on an idea I thought I would put out there.
Im building a system that uses a multiple coil configuration so its a little slow, or Im slow I should say :) finding the right size cores is a problem so I been experimenting with iron wire, winding them like a coil, Iv had plenty of fails but I finally figured it out.

When we do find the answer I would like to build it from scratch with readily available parts and not have to depend on a special component like a ferrite core, the only problem with iron is the frequency must be kept low.

Anyway good luck to everyone on their projects
dave

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Dave45 on August 24, 2013, 08:46:17 AM

One of the cores, pics are not very good sorry.
I used a fast drying spray insulation between each winding, Im thinking about using fiberglass bondo to coat the whole core then spraying another coat of insulation over that.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on August 24, 2013, 10:44:04 AM

Dave:
We have tried to tell you that your invented circuit function just won't work the way that you have imagined that it will. There is NO stepping up of the current from this set up.
The two primaries that you are mentioning will NOT step up the current, only the voltage at the expense of the current.
Do you really think that what you are thinking of doing has never been done or tried before? Go for it then. But, we tried to warn you.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Dave45 on August 24, 2013, 11:49:38 AM

I know you sacrifice one at the expense of the other, I dont think this alone will go ou but I am working on a coil configuration that is interesting, will let you know if I get anything.

Im hard headed, have to try it myself ;D

hope all goes well with you and yours
dave

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on August 24, 2013, 06:01:13 PM

Hi folks, Hi dave, have played with this flip flop circuit in the past, it works good.
Only way to know if your thinking is correct, is to test it, anything is possible.
Here is the thread that was started before.
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/12438-simple-inverter.html (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/12438-simple-inverter.html)
Also, it does work on 1.2 volts input.
peace love light
tyson :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on August 24, 2013, 06:48:01 PM

Skywatcher:
Yes, I remember that video. It got me to test my Joule Ringer running off of a couple of small 10v solar panels that I had it connected to. It played a boom box CD player pretty well. I was also surprised. And very useful too. It can also charge cell phones, AA batteries, and even 12v 4 to 7 amp hour batteries quite well, also. I should have made a video of it.
Looks like your twin transistors circuit works well with those resistors that you used.
I don't use any resistors or any other other component than a TIP 3055 or similar transistor. It only gets fairly hot when running incandescent bulbs, but works well with the small 7 watt incandescent bulbs, gutted CFL, and LED bulbs. The heat-sink helps.

However it won't also step up the current, nor was that circuit designed to do that, if it did we'd all be home free by now.

Here is a picture of my twin TIP 3055 transistor circuit, using no other components, running off of only 2 of those small solar panels, direct.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 24, 2013, 07:37:22 PM

Nick, Tyson:

Very well done. I really enjoy seeing the efforts here to make more light using less energy. The solar aspect also brings the "free" into free energy as well.

Here is a circuit I have been working on for some time. It is still not done yet but, when completed, it will have a high voltage/high freq. output and it is tunable. This will allow one to maintain the perfect resonance as the battery drains. The transistor (FJD5553TM) is a new one from Fairchild (SMD) that should keep the circuit operating down below .2 volts and, it can handle a lot of power so it could be driven with 3 volts input no problem. It also has ultra high switching speeds as well.

I will keep you guys posted. It is getting harder to find the time to work on this stuff.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on August 25, 2013, 12:41:57 AM

Here is a Joule Thief circuit that runs on a single AA battery. It can light two white leds super bright, and has a small red led, and a on/off switch, also.
Remember when we were working to improve the JT circuits? Well now all you got to do is buy them for a couple of bucks. You can't even make one for this cheap or this well made yourself.
I took this one apart to re-solder a loose wire, so I thought I'd take a picture to show you what's inside, not much, but it works great. The transistor is on the other side.
This one was out of one of those head lamps.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 25, 2013, 05:40:05 PM

Nick:

Yes, it would be hard to compete with what the Chinese make and sell over here. I just bought 2 led lanterns that have 15 bright leds each and are in a very nice housing for $2.99 each US. I am going to modify them as they require 3 AA batteries.

My new circuit will output around 400 volts and can light a lot more stuff than any of the Chinese goods I have yet seen. (except for the flash circuits)

I am still amazed by the solar led garden lights as they have to contain a JT type circuit for the 1.2 volt battery but, when taken apart, the only thing I can't identify on the little circuit board is a small gray blob. So, somehow, they have made a JT type circuit that fits under a small blob. Amazing.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on August 25, 2013, 06:24:44 PM

I have recycled about 50 discarded garden lights, that have 5 golden or flame colored LED bulbs each unit, and that will light from just a single rechargeable AA battery. Also 50 of those rechargeable AAs. But, I took out all their little solar panels to make my own bigger panel, with much higher output using all those little panels from the garden lights.
So, now I've got lots of spare parts left over that I may never use.
Or I may, who knows... It's all fun.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: 4Lynx4 on August 27, 2013, 07:39:37 AM

Hi all,

Awesome thread, there's some really interesting schematics in here :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 27, 2013, 08:03:41 PM

Quote from: 4Lynx4 on August 27, 2013, 07:39:37 AM
Hi all,

Awesome thread, there's some really interesting schematics in here :)

Hello and welcome. There is also a schematics topic, which is locked, and I have not kept up with adding all of the past 2 years worth, but check it out, there are a lot of cool things in there from the early days.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on August 27, 2013, 11:10:12 PM

Has anyone heard from Lawrence ( LTseung ) lately? I'm worried about him.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 27, 2013, 11:25:10 PM

Quote from: TinselKoala on August 27, 2013, 11:10:12 PM
Has anyone heard from Lawrence ( LTseung ) lately? I'm worried about him.

TK:

I was just thinking that the other day. Even though the tests did not pan out like he had hoped, it is not like him to just quit posting. I would have to double check but it has been close to a month or more since we have seen him right?

I hope he is doing OK. I admire his tenacity.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: 4Lynx4 on August 28, 2013, 02:45:53 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on August 27, 2013, 08:03:41 PM
Hello and welcome. There is also a schematics topic, which is locked, and I have not kept up with adding all of the past 2 years worth, but check it out, there are a lot of cool things in there from the early days.

Bill

Could I please ask for a link to the schematics topic?
I tried searching but alas.......
Sorry, noob alert ;D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 28, 2013, 10:28:21 AM

Quote from: 4Lynx4 on August 28, 2013, 02:45:53 AM
Could I please ask for a link to the schematics topic?
I tried searching but alas.......
Sorry, noob alert ;D

http://www.overunity.com/6942/joule-thief-circuit-diagrams-etc/#.Uh4Ion80_fc (http://www.overunity.com/6942/joule-thief-circuit-diagrams-etc/#.Uh4Ion80_fc)

This should take you to page 1.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: 4Lynx4 on August 28, 2013, 10:57:47 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on August 28, 2013, 10:28:21 AM

http://www.overunity.com/6942/joule-thief-circuit-diagrams-etc/#.Uh4Ion80_fc (http://www.overunity.com/6942/joule-thief-circuit-diagrams-etc/#.Uh4Ion80_fc)

This should take you to page 1.

Bill

Awesome, thanks!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on August 28, 2013, 01:04:30 PM

TK:
From what we've seen. there is NO OU from a simple iron powder Joule Thief circuit.
Although some guys may have made some JTs that may be OU, or self charging, like the ones the Kooler had running for 5 months, using "special diodes".

What I did not like, is someone stating for years that his device is working with more output than is being provided by the input. To me this is somewhat demented.
I think that he may have given up by now... However, he does post on OUR forum though, in a locked thread, as too many people got on his case.
I had ask him to provide proof that his JT would not drain a AA or a charged cap.
I asked Stefan to try it also on the test unit that he received, and others as well, and let us know just how long it took for the battery to die. But I guess that was too simple a test, and they would rather just keep playing with their scopes instead. They all knew that the batteries would ALWAYS get totally drained, in every single test case. So...
Wishful thinking is all that I had ever seen from any his devices, unfortunately.

However, that does not imply that it's not possible, at least to some degree.

One mans junk is another mans treasure:
"The ultimate Joule Thief collection"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFB8Uwcknrg

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 28, 2013, 10:14:35 PM

Quote from: 4Lynx4 on August 28, 2013, 10:57:47 AM
Awesome, thanks!

You are welcome. Some site navigation advice in case you don't know it. If you look at the top of the page, just under the Overunity logo, you will see buttons labeled...

Home Community Help Search...etc.

Click on the Community button and then scroll down to the Joule Thief topic area (Or any of the other topic areas that might interest you) and Click Joule Thief. You will then see 4 pages of JT topics. (Each page has a lot of topic areas each) This topic you are in here is the original JT topic but, there are many other very good ones as well.

I hope this helps.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 28, 2013, 10:21:11 PM

Quote from: NickZ on August 28, 2013, 01:04:30 PM
TK:
From what we've seen. there is NO OU from a simple iron powder Joule Thief circuit.
Although some guys may have made some JTs that may be OU, or self charging, like the ones the Kooler had running for 5 months, using "special diodes".

What I did not like, is someone stating for years that his device is working with more output than is being provided by the input. To me this is somewhat demented.
I think that he may have given up by now... However, he does post on OUR forum though, in a locked thread, as too many people got on his case.
I had ask him to provide proof that his JT would not drain a AA or a charged cap.
I asked Stefan to try it also on the test unit that he received, and others as well, and let us know just how long it took for the battery to die. But I guess that was too simple a test, and they would rather just keep playing with their scopes instead. They all knew that the batteries would ALWAYS get totally drained, in every single test case. So...
Wishful thinking is all that I had ever seen from any his devices, unfortunately.

However, that does not imply that it's not possible, at least to some degree.

One mans junk is another mans treasure:
"The ultimate Joule Thief collection"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFB8Uwcknrg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFB8Uwcknrg)

Nick:

I don't disagree with you at all here. I, for one, have never claimed the JT circuit to be OU. Lawrence, on the other hand, has done so for a long time now. Yes, this pissed off a lot of folks...I can see why. He took a lot of abuse for his "Lead Out" theory when he first brought it to this forum. As a matter of fact, there is a chapter in his book about us here on OU.com speaking of this very thing. (Yes, he has written a book about all of this)

http://www.energyfromair.com/innovation/ (http://www.energyfromair.com/innovation/)

No names but it mentions some real abuse he took because we did not believe, or could understand, his theory. (I still don't believe it)

I just admire the way he stuck to it all these years...no matter what. That is what I admire. You don't see much of that these days it seems.

I will check out the link you posted for the JT.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: 4Lynx4 on August 29, 2013, 06:50:19 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on August 28, 2013, 10:14:35 PM
You are welcome. Some site navigation advice in case you don't know it. If you look at the top of the page, just under the Overunity logo, you will see buttons labeled...

Home Community Help Search...etc.

Click on the Community button and then scroll down to the Joule Thief topic area (Or any of the other topic areas that might interest you) and Click Joule Thief. You will then see 4 pages of JT topics. (Each page has a lot of topic areas each) This topic you are in here is the original JT topic but, there are many other very good ones as well.

I hope this helps.

Bill

Thanks, appreciate it :)
I've bookmarked it, http://www.overunity.com/6942/joule-thief-circuit-diagrams-etc/ , but as it's locked it will eventually find it's way to page 2 so if it was pinned then noobs like myself could find it more easily.......?

Or maybe this has been asked before ;D

/JM2C ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 08, 2013, 10:08:25 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKsd6kyZ-I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKsd6kyZ-I)

"Self-runner Oscillator, or Joule Thief" (Video title)

This was posted on Youtube by someone I subscribe to. Personally, i think it is the supercaps that are running the circuit, but he claims it runs for 3 days and, it does appear that he is feeding back at least some of the energy. Take from it what you will.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on September 09, 2013, 08:15:04 PM

Pirate88179 (http://www.overunity.com/profile/pirate88179.8844/)

The blinking Joule thief in my web page post at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-l7L_u45edE&feature=c4-overview-vl&list=PLNujarhoynFkpZZasJ6v9Yrva0-a9vDZZ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-l7L_u45edE&feature=c4-overview-vl&list=PLNujarhoynFkpZZasJ6v9Yrva0-a9vDZZ)

which uses 0.028 mA, will theoretically run for 9 days using a 10F capacitor that drops from 1.5 volts to 0.7 volts. Some of the other Joule thiefs I built would run for over 60 days. I have not run a test to verify this, but I will if I ever get a 10F capacitor.

The human body powered Joule thief circuit should also run for about 9 days using a 10F capacitor:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNbPpG0ezxM&feature=c4-overview-vl&list=PLNujarhoynFkpZZasJ6v9Yrva0-a9vDZZ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNbPpG0ezxM&feature=c4-overview-vl&list=PLNujarhoynFkpZZasJ6v9Yrva0-a9vDZZ)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 10, 2013, 08:15:38 PM

Quote from: xee2 on September 09, 2013, 08:15:04 PM
Pirate88179 (http://www.overunity.com/profile/pirate88179.8844/)

The blinking Joule thief in my web page post at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-l7L_u45edE&feature=c4-overview-vl&list=PLNujarhoynFkpZZasJ6v9Yrva0-a9vDZZ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-l7L_u45edE&feature=c4-overview-vl&list=PLNujarhoynFkpZZasJ6v9Yrva0-a9vDZZ)

which uses 0.028 mA, will theoretically run for 9 days using a 10F capacitor that drops from 1.5 volts to 0.7 volts. Some of the other Joule thiefs I built would run for over 60 days. I have not run a test to verify this, but I will if I ever get a 10F capacitor.

The human body powered Joule thief circuit should also run for about 9 days using a 10F capacitor:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNbPpG0ezxM&feature=c4-overview-vl&list=PLNujarhoynFkpZZasJ6v9Yrva0-a9vDZZ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNbPpG0ezxM&feature=c4-overview-vl&list=PLNujarhoynFkpZZasJ6v9Yrva0-a9vDZZ)

Xee2:

Yes, nice work. I remember seeing this a while back. Instead of the MPSA06, which I think you said will go down to .7 volts, have you tried the new FJD5553 from Fairchild? It should work to down below .2 volts. Also, it can handle a lot of power as well. (within reason) Your circuit should then probably run for maybe 12 years or so? I have been playing with them for the past month or so.

Very well done Sir. That is a very low amp draw.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on September 10, 2013, 10:53:27 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on September 10, 2013, 08:15:38 PM
Xee2:

Yes, nice work. I remember seeing this a while back. Instead of the MPSA06, which I think you said will go down to .7 volts, have you tried the new FJD5553 from Fairchild? It should work to down below .2 volts. Also, it can handle a lot of power as well. (within reason) Your circuit should then probably run for maybe 12 years or so? I have been playing with them for the past month or so.

Very well done Sir. That is a very low amp draw.

Bill

I had not heard of anyone getting the FJD5553 to work at 0.2 Vbe. That is an amazing result. Thanks for letting me know about it. I will be looking for your results. According to the data sheet it has a low gain at low power, so it may not be a good choice for low power circuits.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 12, 2013, 10:14:12 PM

Quote from: xee2 on September 10, 2013, 10:53:27 PM

I had not heard of anyone getting the FJD5553 to work at 0.2 Vbe. That is an amazing result. Thanks for letting me know about it. I will be looking for your results. According to the data sheet it has a low gain at low power, so it may not be a good choice for low power circuits.

Well, I don't really have any results ...yet. The specs say this transistor will switch on down to .21 volts. It also says it will handle some decent power similar to the TIP 3055's I have been using. I have constructed a circuit based on the work that you did on the "typical" Kodak type inverter transformers. I have wired up my circuit according to your pin outs (Thank you for doing all of that and posting it way back when) but I have not yet achieved resonance. I think this is a resistance problem as I have no real idea of what it will take. The trimmer I am using goes from 0-200 ohms and evidently, I must need more to get it to work, or, my inverter transformers are a bit different than the 5 pin ones that you used. (I am still working very hard on this.) I wish there was a better way to determine the required resistance other than "shooting in the dark" which is the method that I use. I figured that the 200 ohm range would get me close but....not so.

My idea is to build these modern day "Fuji" style flash boards using better components and only those that we really need. I came across this recent transistor and the write-ups appeared to be pretty good. (Possibly not) I also purchased a bunch of tin can 2N222's and a lot of TIP 3055's but the 3055's saturate at 1 volt and I can get them to run below that but not by very much. I am very glad that you shared the work that you did on these circuits back then.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on September 13, 2013, 01:01:43 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on September 12, 2013, 10:14:12 PM
I think this is a resistance problem

Bill,
I do not think it is a resistance problem, 200 ohms should work. I am sure you have tried this, but, the first thing I try when a Joule thief doesn't work is to reverse the leads to one side of the transformer. If that does not work I would suspect something funny with the transformer. If you have a resistance meter able to read fractions of an ohm, you can check to make sure the collector coil has more resistance (more turns) than the base coil.

PS - Your transformers may have a different pin out than the Kodak's that were used years ago. The Fuji transformers had many different pin outs.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 13, 2013, 10:51:35 PM

Quote from: xee2 on September 13, 2013, 01:01:43 PM
Bill,
I do not think it is a resistance problem, 200 ohms should work. I am sure you have tried this, but, the first thing I try when a Joule thief doesn't work is to reverse the leads to one side of the transformer. If that does not work I would suspect something funny with the transformer. If you have a resistance meter able to read fractions of an ohm, you can check to make sure the collector coil has more resistance (more turns) than the base coil.

PS - Your transformers may have a different pin out than the Kodak's that were used years ago. The Fuji transformers had many different pin outs.

Xee2:

Really? That is interesting. I just figured I didn't have the right resistance. I hunted all over to find a source for these inverter transformers and finally found one. They do not offer a schematic of the pin outs however. OK, thanks, I will check the resistance of the coils. This is really great information and I do appreciate it. I just "assumed" that the inputs were the 2 pins and the outputs were the 3 pins. They do not fit on a breadboard and, as I am sure you know, this is not easy to test unless you go ahead and solder the circuit. I have many meters here and my best is an Omega so, hopefully, it will show me the resistance difference of the windings.

Thank you again. I owe you.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on September 14, 2013, 01:10:11 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on September 13, 2013, 10:51:35 PM
They do not fit on a breadboard and, as I am sure you know, this is not easy to test unless you go ahead and solder the circuit. I

Bill,
You may be able to test them without soldering leads on the pins. If you have two cables with alligator clips, try putting a stiff wire in the clip at one end of each cable and hook the other end of each cable to the meter. You may be able to get a good enough connection to make a measurement just by pressing the wires against the pins. No promises, but it is easy to try. Good luck.

PS - I suggest holding the transformer in a vise while you try this.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on September 20, 2013, 06:16:29 PM

Hi folks, have been pondering the gutted cree light have been using here, the one with the flyback or the yoke ferrite core and the non-polarized capacitor in series with the secondary coil and gutted led bulb.
As was mentioned previously, it just about cut in half the input amperage and doubled or so the light output, what is going on here.
So, checked the capacitor while oscillating and it sits at around 185 volts.
Then, disconnected the primary coil wire of the bifilar joule thief to just manually pulse and see what is going on.
Initially, when touching coil wire to 4 volt lithium cell, it lights up led bulb dimly, then when disconnected, it lights up much brighter.
Then if this pulsing is done a few more times, the capacitor must be filling up somewhat, then the initial coil wire contact with battery reaches an equilibrium and the first pulse starts to become equal in brightness to the collapsing pulse.
Also, sometimes, the collapsing pulse seems to be ringing down with the capacitor and it fades out slower, but it seems you have to get the pulses correct for that to happen.
Would really like to know what is going on here.
How can the led bulb be lighting both ways, when they are diodes and should not be conducting both ways, with initial coil pulse and collapse.
Also still trying to figure out why circuit uses half as much input compared to no capacitor and its doubling of brightness.
One idea, is that since the secondary capacitor is sitting at 185 volts, less average current is being reflected back to the primary coil of joule thief oscillator, though have no idea as of yet, to why the bulb is lighting both ways.
Any thoughts greatly appreciated.
peace love light
tyson :)
edit2: Ok, now think i have it.
Had to reorient the led bulb diode to comprehend it.
The initial pulse inducted into the secondary allows this pulse to cause the led diodes to conduct, until the capacitor charges, once that occurs, no more current can flow.
Then upon collapse of the secondary coil, since the collapsing pulse voltage from the coil is greater than the capacitor at any given moment, it does not matter that the polarity does not match the diode cathode or anode, as long as there is a potential difference, it will conduct.
So that is why it conducts both ways and charges the capacitor to 185 volts also, i thnk.
Though do wonder what the polarities are on the capacitor just before the coil field collapses into the capacitor through the diode, seems they would be opposite, creating a series connection, instead of parallel, though maybe someone has an idea on that.
Reoriented led diode in picture, because that is probably how it is wired now.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Magluvin on September 21, 2013, 12:07:54 AM

Hey Bill

Can you use a JT to charge say a 1uf or 10 uf cap to 100v pretty quickly?

Thanks

Mags

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on September 21, 2013, 12:32:15 AM

I hope you don't mind me jumping in here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAkgwBS8q4A

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Magluvin on September 21, 2013, 12:55:44 AM

Quote from: TinselKoala on September 21, 2013, 12:32:15 AM
I hope you don't mind me jumping in here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAkgwBS8q4A (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAkgwBS8q4A)

Excelent. ;) Thanks for putting that up for me.

Do you know what the input power was with that? The battery seemed to drop pretty good. Was it a rechargeable or throw away? Got the Lasersaber motor goin and it could really move if it had 100v always available, and I thought maybe a JT would be the best way to do it. I put up my first vid last night, maybe you have seen it already.

So the jt needs a diode across the output in order to work?

Thanks again for the quick help. I owe ya one. ;D

Mags

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on September 21, 2013, 01:24:52 AM

Quote from: Magluvin on September 21, 2013, 12:55:44 AM
Excelent. ;) Thanks for putting that up for me.

Do you know what the input power was with that? The battery seemed to drop pretty good. Was it a rechargeable or throw away?

It's a standard alkaline AAA cell. With open circuit voltage of 1.32 or so it's pretty depleted already. I haven't measured the input current on this one lately, probably should do that.

Quote
Got the Lasersaber motor goin and it could really move if it had 100v always available, and I thought maybe a JT would be the best way to do it. I put up my first vid last night, maybe you have seen it already.

No, I'll watch it now. I think that motor doesn't draw much current, so your idea would probably work, maybe.

Quote

So the jt needs a diode across the output in order to work?

Thanks again for the quick help. I owe ya one. ;D

Mags

No prob, mate, glad to have something relevant to show. This one now lights six NE-2s in series, and I've measured the open-circuit output on the scope to be over 600 V.
Yes, it needs the diode in order to light the neons, but it still works fine as a JT and makes high voltages without it. Weird, huh?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Magluvin on September 21, 2013, 01:41:52 AM

Very cool. Had not made a jt yet. Time to put another notch in the soldering iron. ;)

Thanks again

Mags

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on September 21, 2013, 02:23:23 AM

Hi folks, well, had another look at the circuit posted earlier and made an experiment without any coils, just one AA, then used two AA's to mimmick a higher voltage collapsing field through capacitor and diode.
Nothing flowed as one would expect.
Soo, based on the observation of the gutted bulb fading out once in awhile when manually pulsing by hand the primary of the joule thief oscillator, leads me to think that when the secondary coil collapses, it either inductively interacts with primary coil to create a ringing, which would then give many proper polarity pulses to cause the led bulb diodes to conduct or the secondary coil is collapsing within itself to create the ringing, which does the same thing.
Anyone, please chime in here if you have any ideas on this, though this seems to make the most sense so far.
peace love light
tyson :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on September 21, 2013, 02:57:05 AM

Quote from: SkyWatcher123 on September 21, 2013, 02:23:23 AM
Hi folks, well, had another look at the circuit posted earlier and made an experiment without any coils, just one AA, then used two AA's to mimmick a higher voltage collapsing field through capacitor and diode.
Nothing flowed as one would expect.
Soo, based on the observation of the gutted bulb fading out once in awhile when manually pulsing by hand the primary of the joule thief oscillator, leads me to think that when the secondary coil collapses, it either inductively interacts with primary coil to create a ringing, which would then give many proper polarity pulses to cause the led bulb diodes to conduct or the secondary coil is collapsing within itself to create the ringing, which does the same thing.
Anyone, please chime in here if you have any ideas on this, though this seems to make the most sense so far.
peace love light
tyson :)

hy tyson
can u try the following
from + add diode going to top of secondary adding ac and dc imy ssg output produced very bright led lamp output a combo of ac and dc
peter lindermann used this in his ignition coil
Minoly in his latest ckt use to combine the ac leg with pos of bridge rectifier
in my pmbo 2013 build off
when my power supply adaptor has leakage meaning only neutral ac is connected to input and output is one leg pos is connected to circuit
8 pcsx of 5 w led lamps 220 v ac were all 100 % bright

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on September 21, 2013, 03:51:13 AM

Hi totoalas, hooked up diode both ways as you suggested, did not see any change in light output.
Though i hooked it from top of coil to either secondary leg.
Is it possible you meant from the collector of transistor to either secondary leg.
So what do you think about the series secondary capacitor and its effect on this circuit, does my idea sound like that's what might be happening to benefit this circuit.
peace love light
tyson :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on September 21, 2013, 05:08:16 AM

Quote from: SkyWatcher123 on September 21, 2013, 03:51:13 AM
Hi totoalas, hooked up diode both ways as you suggested, did not see any change in light output.
Though i hooked it from top of coil to either secondary leg.
Is it possible you meant from the collector of transistor to either secondary leg.
So what do you think about the series secondary capacitor and its effect on this circuit, does my idea sound like that's what might be happening to benefit this circuit.
peace love light
tyson :)

Yes ur right i used collector
About the cap in series have u heard of parallel and sries resonance in an rlc circuit on parallel and off series resonance with caps ????? Id better test ur ckt as well

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 21, 2013, 11:33:03 AM

Quote from: Magluvin on September 21, 2013, 12:07:54 AM
Hey Bill

Can you use a JT to charge say a 1uf or 10 uf cap to 100v pretty quickly?

Thanks

Mags

Mags:

I would think you could do that and it should work pretty well. The caps seem to like those high voltage spikes, at least the super caps that I have used seem to. Not much amp output from the JT mostly voltage but they should still charge up pretty fast I would think. Take the flash circuits for example, as they charge that large 300 volt cap in just a few seconds.

TK:

That is a great circuit! Are those inductors available from a supplier somewhere? I don't recall seeing any of those in the surplus catalogs...goldmine,allelectronics, BG micro, etc. That is higher voltage than I can get from any of my modified flash circuits. Have you tried a TIP3055 in that configuration?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: totoalas on September 21, 2013, 03:34:12 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN1HHrbFDac (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN1HHrbFDac)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on September 21, 2013, 05:26:43 PM

@Pirate: I replied to your comment on the video. I don't know about suppliers, I got it from a TV chassis and modified it by adding the outer 30-turn winding of #22. It was originally encased in a white plastic box housing, that might have a part number on it, I'll try to find it but don't hold your breath, this place is packed with junk right now. Also, not all 2n3055s are created equal; I have a few that are 'good' but won't make this kind of voltage. No, I don't think I've tried a TIP or MJE 3055 in this particular circuit, but I think I have one in the box somewhere so I may sub it in just to see.
Thanks for your interest! I think that one reason this one works is the "secondary" with 300 turns is tightly wound on the good ferrite, and then the 30 turns I put on are on the outside of that, also tight and neat. I potted it in epoxy but that's probably not really necessary... but you never can tell, it might improve the Q.
I realize now that I can hear it oscillating in the video, so there is still something loose in there. The best tuning of the pot is pretty narrow too, so I do recommend the 10-turn trimpot. It may require a bit of retuning if the supply voltage is different, which is why I didn't use a fixed resistor.
I use the 1n4002 diode in there even though the spikes exceed the voltage rating. Again, I don't know if this is important or not. If you find out, let me know!

Thanks for taking a look!
--TK

ETA: Here's the inductor after my added winding and before I potted it:

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 21, 2013, 05:55:13 PM

TK:

Thanks.

How did you "arrive" at adding the 30 turns to the outside? I mean....why not 25....or 35? Did you base this upon some formula or, was it a shot in the dark? However you did it appears to work very well indeed. All of my "shots in the dark" of late have not worked at all. Oh well, that is how it goes I suppose.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gyulasun on September 21, 2013, 06:26:33 PM

Hi Bill,

You can find similar coils with ferrite core at Digikey for instance but surely at other places, look for fixed inductors/ferrite chokes.
Hope this long link works:
http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?FV=fff40003%2Cfff80013%2C400002%2C4c0056%2C4c0057%2C4c0059%2C4c005a&k=ferrite+choke&mnonly=0&newproducts=0&ColumnSort=0&page=1&stock=1&pbfree=0&rohs=0&quantity=&ptm=0&fid=0&pageSize=50 (http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?FV=fff40003%2Cfff80013%2C400002%2C4c0056%2C4c0057%2C4c0059%2C4c005a&k=ferrite+choke&mnonly=0&newproducts=0&ColumnSort=0&page=1&stock=1&pbfree=0&rohs=0&quantity=&ptm=0&fid=0&pageSize=50)

Gyula

ADDITION: the above coils do not include the ferrite (ceramic) magnet which is diametrically magnetized and its flux can vary the coil core permeability hence change inductance. Such coils are not manufactured any more because color television sets with picture tube are not manufactured any more (at least in Europe) so these coils are not needed. They used to serve as horizontal linearity correction coils if I am not mistaken, see such at ebay with the magnet:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Toshiba-Linearity-Coil-C-Original-Service-Part-Part-Nummer-V30032994-/380703229235?pt=DE_TV_Video_Audio_TV_Hauptplatinen_Teile&hash=item58a3ae4533

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 21, 2013, 07:31:19 PM

Gyula:

Wow! Thank you very much for posting this. This is great.

Thanks,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on September 22, 2013, 01:34:52 AM

Quote from: gyulasun on September 21, 2013, 06:26:33 PM
Hi Bill,

You can find similar coils with ferrite core at Digikey for instance but surely at other places, look for fixed inductors/ferrite chokes.
Hope this long link works:
http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?FV=fff40003%2Cfff80013%2C400002%2C4c0056%2C4c0057%2C4c0059%2C4c005a&k=ferrite+choke&mnonly=0&newproducts=0&ColumnSort=0&page=1&stock=1&pbfree=0&rohs=0&quantity=&ptm=0&fid=0&pageSize=50 (http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?FV=fff40003%2Cfff80013%2C400002%2C4c0056%2C4c0057%2C4c0059%2C4c005a&k=ferrite+choke&mnonly=0&newproducts=0&ColumnSort=0&page=1&stock=1&pbfree=0&rohs=0&quantity=&ptm=0&fid=0&pageSize=50)

Gyula

ADDITION: the above coils do not include the ferrite (ceramic) magnet which is diametrically magnetized and its flux can vary the coil core permeability hence change inductance. Such coils are not manufactured any more because color television sets with picture tube are not manufactured any more (at least in Europe) so these coils are not needed. They used to serve as horizontal linearity correction coils if I am not mistaken, see such at ebay with the magnet:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Toshiba-Linearity-Coil-C-Original-Service-Part-Part-Nummer-V30032994-/380703229235?pt=DE_TV_Video_Audio_TV_Hauptplatinen_Teile&hash=item58a3ae4533 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Toshiba-Linearity-Coil-C-Original-Service-Part-Part-Nummer-V30032994-/380703229235?pt=DE_TV_Video_Audio_TV_Hauptplatinen_Teile&hash=item58a3ae4533)

Good idea. However, note the self resonant frequency. Above that it will act as a capacitor instead of an inductor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gyulasun on September 22, 2013, 06:50:13 AM

Quote from: xee2 on September 22, 2013, 01:34:52 AM

Good idea. However, note the seld resonant frequency. Above that it will act as a capacitor instead of an inductor.

Hi xee2,

Well, I understand what you said but I need some pondering on how a blocking oscillator's operating frequency can be set when you build it. I did build such circuits (joule thiefs etc) in the past but have never done tests how to make them oscillate above the coil's self resonant frequency.
I think basically the frequency is defined mainly by: at which frequency the coil has the highest Q (quality factor) that gives the highest active load hence highest gain for the active device, and from this gain the feedback to the base should remain a positive feedback to maintain the in-phase relationship for the continuous oscillation.
Normally the Q of a coil increases in the function of frequency till nearing its self resonant frequency (beyond which it falls) so normally the operating frequency is lower than that. Stray and active device inter-capacitances do reduce the operating frequency. All what I mean is that operation frequency is "inherently" set below the coil's self resonant frequency. You or others here may see this differently of cource, I would gladly read opinions.
Of course a capacitive phase-shift can also give a positive feedback (as one requirement for continuous oscillation) but how can you achieve it i.e. force the coil to operate beyond its self resonant frequency? Perhaps using extra capacitors at the coupling coil in the base of the transistor to help shift the phase so that oscillation may be forced higher in frequency. It needs testing of course. MAybe you have found out this already, I wonder.

Greetings, Gyula

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on September 22, 2013, 10:56:05 AM

Quote from: gyulasun on September 22, 2013, 06:50:13 AM
Hi xee2,

Well, I understand what you said but I need some pondering on how a blocking oscillator's operating frequency can be set when you build it. I did build such circuits (joule thiefs etc) in the past but have never done tests how to make them oscillate above the coil's self resonant frequency.
I think basically the frequency is defined mainly by: at which frequency the coil has the highest Q (quality factor) that gives the highest active load hence highest gain for the active device, and from this gain the feedback to the base should remain a positive feedback to maintain the in-phase relationship for the continuous oscillation.
Normally the Q of a coil increases in the function of frequency till nearing its self resonant frequency (beyond which it falls) so normally the operating frequency is lower than that. Stray and active device inter-capacitances do reduce the operating frequency. All what I mean is that operation frequency is "inherently" set below the coil's self resonant frequency. You or others here may see this differently of cource, I would gladly read opinions.
Of course a capacitive phase-shift can also give a positive feedback (as one requirement for continuous oscillation) but how can you achieve it i.e. force the coil to operate beyond its self resonant frequency? Perhaps using extra capacitors at the coupling coil in the base of the transistor to help shift the phase so that oscillation may be forced higher in frequency. It needs testing of course. MAybe you have found out this already, I wonder.

Greetings, Gyula

I was only trying to point out that some of these small inductors have rather low self resonant frequencies. The ones in the link seem to be high enough (500 KHz) for most Joule thiefs, but not all small inductors may work.

The blocking oscillator works by inductive coupling between the collector and base coils. This coupling needs to have the proper phase for oscillation to occur. I would suspect that above the self resonant frequency the phase of the coupling may not be correct for oscillation. However, I have not investigated this. But, I suspect that the frequency of the Joule thief will be below the self resonant frequency of the inductor.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 22, 2013, 11:18:15 AM

Quote from: xee2 on September 22, 2013, 10:56:05 AM

But, I suspect that the frequency of the Joule thief will be below the self resonant frequency of the inductor.

Xee2:

Would we gain anything if we designed a JT to resonate at the coils self-resonant frequency? Would this increase the output or the efficiency any do you think? How would one test to find the coils resonant frequency?

Thanks for the tip on the small wire clipped to my test leads for probing those little pins on the inverter transformers. I have still not got it figured out yet but, this method is better than anything I was able to come up with.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on September 22, 2013, 11:43:23 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on September 22, 2013, 11:18:15 AM
Would we gain anything if we designed a JT to resonate at the coils self-resonant frequency? Would this increase the output or the efficiency any do you think? How would one test to find the coils resonant frequency?[/size]

I do not think you would have a Joule thief anymore if you did that. There are many oscillators that use resonators to set the frequency, but the Joule thief is not one of them (in my opinion). I do not know of any design equations for calculating the frequency of a Joule thief. The frequency depends on a lot of things - coil inductance and coupling, transistor gain, transistor bias point, added capacitances, operating voltage, and probably some more.

You can usually find self resonant frequency by sweeping input frequency and looking at voltage across coil on scope. Voltage will usually peak at self resonant frequency.

This gives some more information about self resonance >> http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/self-resonant_frequency_of_inductors.htm (http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/self-resonant_frequency_of_inductors.htm)[/font]

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gyulasun on September 22, 2013, 06:41:18 PM

Quote from: xee2 on September 22, 2013, 10:56:05 AM

I was only trying to point out that some of these small inductors have rather low self resonant frequencies. The ones in the link seem to be high enough (500 KHz) for most Joule thiefs, but not all small inductors may work.

The blocking oscillator works by inductive coupling between the collector and base coils. This coupling needs to have the proper phase for oscillation to occur. I would suspect that above the self resonant frequency the phase of the coupling may not be correct for oscillation. However, I have not investigated this. But, I suspect that the frequency of the Joule thief will be below the self resonant frequency of the inductor.

Okay, and that is what I also meant, thanks.

Gyula

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on September 24, 2013, 01:34:01 AM

Hi folks, so does anyone have any input in regard to what i brought up earlier, that is trying to figure out why the secondary coil with capacitor and led bulb diodes are lighting in both directions.
My best guess so far, is because the secondary coil is ringing either within itself or interacting with primary coil to cause led diodes to conduct on field collapse.
Not sure if intermittently charged capacitor is adding anything, though one thing is for sure, the capacitor is benefitting this circuit greatly.
peace love light :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gyulasun on September 24, 2013, 04:44:19 AM

Hi SkyWatcher,

The moment you insert the capacitor into the secondary coil circuit you get a (R)LC circuit which is kicked by pulses from the primary coil side, hence the (R)LC circuit will ring at its natural resonant frequency (given by normal Thomson formula) so the rings will have zero voltage (hence current) crossings if you were to watch the waveform across either the L or C (or across a series 1 Ohm resistor). This means that you can insert a LED in any direction, it will give light either way just because both the positive and the negative half waves of the sinusoid-like rings exceed the LED forward direction.
If you think of matching the LED to the RLC output, you may wish to test a coupling coil to it with some taps or use the present secondary coil itself with some taps on it and connect a full wave diode bridge between a tap and one end of the secondary while the LED would be connected to the DC output of the diode bridge. Be prepared to get some higher input current draw in this case because the LED now will have a loading effect during each half wave versus the previous every second half wave loading, especially when you were to use a puffer capacitor at the diode bridge output too to average the half wave sinewave cap-like output waveshapes.

rgds, Gyula

Addition: If you happen to have another identical LED (well, more or less identical) like the present one, you could hook it up in parallel with the presently used LED, just connected in the opposite polarity direction with respect to the present one, this way BOTH half waves of the present output waveform would be loaded and used, and you can check the current consumption in that case versus the single LED case. This way you save the power loss across the diode bridge should you use one.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on September 24, 2013, 12:55:50 PM

Hi gyulasun, thanks for the well written reply.
What you say makes much sense and seems to confirm what i was thinking.
Just gave away all my same led bulbs to try your idea, maybe when i get another same type, will try adding it in parallel.
Tapping the secondary would be difficult as it is underneath the primary.
Interesting thing, just removed the capacitor and tried manually pulsing the primary coil, same as before and no light can be seen at all from the gutted led bulb.
Also interested in what you or anyone thinks about why when using the capacitor, the current draw is cut in half and on top of that, the bulb brightness doubles.
Me guess is, as the capacitor fills up, the primary coil is loaded less when capacitor starts to rise above the inducted voltage of first primary coil pulse.
Also, since the capacitor is in series, polarity wise, with the collapsing field of secondary coil, wonder if it is helping in anyway to boost that collapsing field and help aid in the doubling of brightness or it may just be because of the ringing.
Thanks for replies to this inquiry, to gyulasun and all.
peace love light
tyson :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on September 24, 2013, 04:17:29 PM

SkyWatcher:
Good to see you're still working on these circuits.
First off, I don't understand why the gutted 6 watt led does not light strongly even without the capacitor. Possibly the combination of your coil windings to input power draw is not right for that bulb. But, it's good to hear that it will light well with the use of the cap.
On my single transistor 3.0 Ringer circuit using 4 volt input, I have over 1000 volts to power leds, Cfls, as well as smaller 7watt incandescent bulbs. No resistor or caps are used, or needed.
I will try the capacitor on the secondary coil output, and let you know what I find.
What value was written on the cap that you are using?
NickZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gyulasun on September 24, 2013, 05:07:08 PM

Hi Tyson,

QuoteTapping the secondary would be difficult as it is underneath the primary.

Okay but then you may wish to make some taps on the primary coil, just to see the effect of some other transformation ratio. I assume the primary has but a few turns so taps could be created say after every two turns or so.

Quote
Interesting thing, just removed the capacitor and tried manually pulsing the primary coil, same as before and no light can be seen at all from the gutted led bulb.

Well, your hand movement must have been too slow versus the transistor switcing speed (albeit the 2N3055 is not known to be a speedy switch either) so that can be the explanation for the no light (slow switch results in low induction).

Quote
Also interested in what you or anyone thinks about why when using the capacitor, the current draw is cut in half and on top of that, the bulb brightness doubles.

I think when the capacitor is inserted between the LED and the secondary coil, the resultant circuit's self-impedance increases, this means that the same primary coil transforms a higher impedance back in series with the collector of the 2N3055, so the transistor's collector current also reduces, hence current draw drops.
I assume your LED is a plain series of diodes i.e. you removed or unconnected the original control circuit between the mains and the LEDs, this is what you mean on a gutted LED? I ask this because in case only the diodes are used, then a real resonant LC tank circuit cannot develop just due to the single way 'permission' for the tank current to flow due to the diode(s), this is why the whole setup with a paralleled 2nd LED hooked up in the opposite polarity direction would work maybe better. Of course, the turns ratio between the primary and the secondary is also to be changed to find the best match between the two LEDs and the switching transistor + the supply source.
When only the single direction current flow is permitted by a single LED, and no capacitor is used, the secondary coil would be DC biased whenever the LED can conduct and this may reflect as a heavier load back to the primary (meaning a lower impedance appearing across the primary coil) versus the case when the capacitor is present, in the latter case no DC current can flow.
Putting this otherwise: You can consider the LED as a switch: when it is forward biased it directly shunts the secondary coil when no capacitor used in series with it. Of course the LED is not a direct shunt like a piece of wire but it has a forward (threshold) voltage level, below which it has no any loading effect. And when the 2nd LED is used in (anti)parallel with the 1st LED, then a two way AC current flow is permitted in the LC circuit, whenever the instanteneous AC voltage level across the LEDs is higher than their threshold forward voltage level. This is how I see it.

Greetings, Gyula

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MileHigh on September 24, 2013, 05:30:55 PM

I only read the last few postings but I will give it a go.

Tyson's schematic lights up his gutted LED bulb. But the circuit is an irregular circuit because you have the secondary coil in a loop with a capacitor and a diode (the LED bulb). So my first thought would be that when you run the circuit the capacitor voltage increases to a point where you reach a balance point. The balance point happens when the secondary coil pushes current clockwise through the capacitor (at some high DC voltage) and through the LEDs - that lights the bulb - and then the charged capacitor discharges counter-clockwise through the coil and backwards though the LEDs - that lights the bulb also.

This is my best guess without being on the bench. So you may get more light but you are slowly frying the LEDs by pumping current through them backwards. Much more resistive energy is being burned inside the LEDs when you do this.

All that you have to do is poke around with a scope. See what happens to the capacitor voltage when you start up the circuit. Look for a telltale wobble in the capacitor voltage. Trigger one channel of your scope on a timing signal on the primary side of the JT and then with your second scope probe you look at all of the signals on the secondary side. Since you have a stable timing reference you should be able to quickly figure out what is going on.

MileHigh

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on September 24, 2013, 06:09:51 PM

MileHigh and all:
When using the 3.0 Ringer inverter circuits I've burnt out several of the small ac caps that are part of the internal circuitry of the ungutted (standard) Cfl, or Led 110v AC bulbs. Their long term lighting duration is not long at all when using these circuits on 12v. However, once the AC bulbs are gutted they will continue working with even less draw than seen previously, and there are then no caps to burn out. Although these internal green Ac caps crack and blow, even before the leds bulbs are affected. It makes these home made inverters for standard led or cfl use, not all that practical, sometimes, especially at higher light outputs and long term use.
At $10 or more for the led bulbs, I don't want to see how long it takes, or how many of them will blow. Good thing that they can be gutted, and still reused.
NickZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gyulasun on September 24, 2013, 06:15:42 PM

Quote from: MileHigh on September 24, 2013, 05:30:55 PM
....
So my first thought would be that when you run the circuit the capacitor voltage increases to a point where you reach a balance point. The balance point happens when the secondary coil pushes current clockwise through the capacitor (at some high DC voltage) and through the LEDs - that lights the bulb - and then the charged capacitor discharges counter-clockwise through the coil and backwards though the LEDs - that lights the bulb also.

Hi MileHigh,

considering your first thought description on the clockwise current direction through the capacitor and via the LEDs causing the LEDs lighting: this would mean a forward current direction for the LED as per the drawing symbol in Tyson's drawing: this is okay for me.
However, (in the moment the secondary coil does not drive any current) and when the charged capacitor is able to discharge counter-clockwise via the coil and backwards through the LEDs then the LED cannot give any light because LEDs do not light up in the reverse direction.
It would be good to know Tyson's gutted LEDs are in series with all in a uniform forward direction.
Here is a link to a (not gutted) LED lamp type what Tyson gutted (I asked him earlier what he meant on a gutted LED, waiting for answer):
http://www.cree.com/Lighting/Products/Indoor/Consumer/40W-Replacement-Warm-White-Type-A-LED-Bulb and I wonder how many individual LEDs are in such bulb.

rgds, Gyula

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MileHigh on September 24, 2013, 06:26:10 PM

It's the Wild Wild West out there boys! Everybody is selling LED light bulbs and changing lighting infrastructure! Over the next ten years all of the lighting will be done with LEDs. Trillions of dollars are going to be spent to convert everything over! Sign up for my $250 seminar to learn how to cash in! lol

Yes we will see if Tyson can check the diode directions.

You are probably right that the reversed-biased LEDs won't light. In the back of my mind I thought that I once heard that they do light but I have no real knowledge. That's a good test right there for fun: Torture an LED and slowly adjust the reverse bias current and check for light output. That would call for a slightly sophisticated test setup but nothing too crazy.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on September 24, 2013, 09:25:34 PM

Hi folks, thanks for all the replies to my questions, very happy you folks are giving it some thought.
Hi nick, yes i did think that already, that maybe my coil configuration is not so good, even if that is true, with this capacitor, it is putting out a heck of alot of light for the 1.1 watt-1.4 watt depending on base resistance used.
And i still am interested to learn why the circuit is operating the way it is.
It is a Cree gutted 6 watt (40 watt equivalent) led bulb, just the leds, which i think are royal blue with small phosphor lenses over each led to create the warm white color and all are in series.
Hi milehigh, as far as I am aware, leds cannot light in reverse direction, though maybe they can when in the splitting the positive type position, tesla switch style.
That is one of the ideas i was throwing around, though at this point, the ringing and each quick reversal of polarity, may be causing forward conduction of led diodes upon secondary coil collapse since it is observable, that the led bulb fades out slower once in awhile, or rings down.
Here is a pic of the gutted bulb, maybe i should make a video showing how this circuit behaves lighting the bulb using manual pulses, it may help to comprehend more of what is going on.
peace love light
tyson ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 24, 2013, 10:56:57 PM

For what it is worth...all of my gutted Cree 60 watt equiv bulbs will light with reversed polarity. They are very dim but still light. (maybe 10% of correct hook-up) Mostly, I am still using the flash board type JT for these.

Tyson, you took your glass off right? If I remember one of your photos correctly, I think there are like 20 LED chips as you described, maybe more in the 60 watt version but I have not taken the glass off of any.

That is all I can add at this time. Very good discussion here...I am learning a lot.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on September 25, 2013, 03:06:20 AM

Hi folks, here is a video using manual pulsing, showing how the initial pulses are dimmer, then as the capacitor fills up more, it becomes more equal with the collapsing pulse brightness.
Though as can be seen, the light is fading once in awhile on collapse due to ringing, i assume.
Without the capacitor, no light can be seen using this same manual pulsing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YWmVc6y9KA&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YWmVc6y9KA&feature=youtu.be)
peace love light
tyson

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on September 25, 2013, 04:24:39 PM

There is an interesting comment on Yahoo today, telling of an invention by a teenager that has made a battery-less flash light. When looking further into it, this is what comes up, at least for me here. No info available. Makes me wonder... what's going...

on.http://screen.yahoo.com/teens-invent-battery-free-flashlight-230000244.html

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gyulasun on September 25, 2013, 04:41:44 PM

Hi Nick,

In the video you gave the link to it is said that there are Peltier cells (tiles) used in the flashlight (shown at 1:37). So this means the user's warm hand insures the "hot" side energy to the cells and the metal casing gives the "cold" side to the cells.

Gyula

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on September 25, 2013, 04:47:14 PM

Gyula:
Thanks for the reply, that link is not opening for me here. So, it's good that you could find out more about it. Interesting.
Thanks, again.
NZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gyulasun on September 25, 2013, 06:25:19 PM

Quote from: NickZ on September 25, 2013, 04:47:14 PM
Gyula:
Thanks for the reply, that link is not opening for me here. So, it's good that you could find out more about it. Interesting.
Thanks, again.
NZ

Oh I did not think the link is not working for you. Here are some pictures for you to 'glimpse' the flashlight, grabbed from the video. There was a few second demo how the lamp performes in total dark, but I was not impressed, probably it needs persons with "hotter blood" to make higher temperature difference... ;D :D

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MileHigh on September 25, 2013, 06:33:04 PM

Tyson:

Thanks for the clip. There definitely is some capacitor charging effect going on. I did not describe the behaviour you observed exactly but it appears we are on the right track.

It might be interesting to look at your circuit schematic and see exactly what you were doing to explain the flash when contact is made and the flash when the contact is broken. So the "dots" for the transformer in the schematic have to be correct, etc.

I didn't mention it before but there is also the issue of your transistor in the actual running circuit and how much it gets hammered by the primary. You are hoping that all of the energy in the core is sucked off by the secondary when you disconnect or the transistor switches off, a scope would tell you that. I don't know if you have a scope.

I was surprised at how small the capacitor you used is. It's also possible that the secondary of the JT simply punched a hole trough your capacitor and it may kind of conduct. I don't know how that type of capacitor fails when you over-voltage it.

MileHigh

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MileHigh on September 25, 2013, 06:37:25 PM

Quoteprobably it needs persons with "hotter blood" to make higher temperature difference...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxoTMfI2Tec

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gyulasun on September 25, 2013, 06:45:23 PM

Hi Tyson,

So you use just the LEDs from the Cree 6W LED bulb, and these LEDs are all in series, from the photo you uploaded I can see maybe 10 LEDs (they are the yellow hemispheres with rectangular base) unless there are some more not visible in the photo.

You ask why the circuit operates as it does. I still believe that (what I already wrote in Reply #16328) by using the capacitor the impedance of the secondary circuit increases and this is transformed back to the primary side so the collector impedance also increases, causing the current draw to drop.

There are some more thoughts. LEDs have only a few volts higher reverse voltage ratings compared to their forward voltages. For instance a 40 to 100 mW small 5mm white LED has a 3.1 V forward voltage at say 20 mA current and has only 5 V reverse voltage rating. Regarding your present LEDs, if they have a forward voltage of say between 6 and 10 V each, then their reverse voltage may range between say 9 and 13V. So ten times this reverse voltage range amounts to say max 130V. So your LEDs will break down above this voltage level in the reverse direction and will conduct current. Because your capacitor is charged up to about 185V as you included this in the schematic, then the LED can discharge it in those moments to as low as say 130V and then the secondary charges up the cap again and the process repeats. (IF you had a scope it could show how the waveforms amplitude changes across the cap.)

Bill, interestingly enough, I found a link where there are practical tests on LEDs whether they are able to light when reverse biased, see here:
http://www.tablix.org/~avian/blog/archives/2009/11/reverse_biased_led/ (http://www.tablix.org/~avian/blog/archives/2009/11/reverse_biased_led/)
So far I have not been aware of such phenomena like impact ionization ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_ionization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_ionization) )

Nevertheless, when a LED is operated in an AC 'enviroment' (instead of pure DC biases) like embedded into an LC tank as Tyson did, then what I mentioned in the "more thoughts" part above can also be valid to make the LEDs light up in the moments when the secondary coil does not provide any kick due to the transistor switching.

Gyula

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MileHigh on September 25, 2013, 06:50:37 PM

i had no clue that new super powerful LEDs for lighting applications had such low reverse voltages. I thought they were comparable to conventional diodes. You learn a new thing every day. Which shoots apart the logic in my original premise because I forgot that the LEDs are typically all in series in many LED lighting applications. Oh well...

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gyulasun on September 25, 2013, 06:55:43 PM

Quote from: MileHigh on September 25, 2013, 06:50:37 PM
i had no clue that new super powerful LEDs for lighting applications had such low reverse voltages. I thought they were comparable to conventional diodes. You learn a new thing every day.

Yes, unfortunately the reverse ratings are low. When this causes trouble or unwanted, you can "improve" it by connecting a normal diode in series with the LED, it may cause a small loss but perhaps the several hundred volt reverse voltage improvement is worth it.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on September 25, 2013, 08:50:43 PM

And, when lighting DC type leds, with pulsed AC, stranger things than that can happen.
As they can become altered in time, and won't work as they did originally.
That is one of the risks of these homemade inverter circuits, running on different frequencies.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 07, 2013, 10:18:54 AM

I finally got my JT Power Tube to operate this weekend. I cheated by removing the AA battery I tried to use for the core and slipped in a ferrite rod. Interesting to note that when I powered it up, I did my usual test to see if it was running. I held the HV output leads in my hands and received no shock whatsoever. (I do not reccomend this method) I thought that there was something else wrong with the circuit and was going to give up on it again but, I decided to get a meter to see if I was getting anything out of the output leads.

Right next to one of my meters on the bench was a LOA 27 chip LED blub so I decided to grab it and hook it up real fast just for laughs. Guess what? It lights up very brightly even though I was feeling no output through my finger test method.

I will post a photo later after work and maybe see if I can find out what the output is.

Is it possible that the voltage output is of a high enough frequency that it does not penetrate my skin? I have never seen this before.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on October 07, 2013, 02:13:00 PM

Hi Bill

The frequency shouldn't make any difference really, if the voltage was high enough you would still feel a tingle.
Depends on your skin resistance however, it was probably low enough to pull the voltage down when you held the output.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: xee2 on October 07, 2013, 02:32:17 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on October 07, 2013, 10:18:54 AM

Is it possible that the voltage output is of a high enough frequency that it does not penetrate my skin? I have never seen this before.

Yes. As the frequency increases, the distance that the energy penetrates into skin becomes smaller. That is why I can use my body as a wire to light a fluorescent tube without getting a shock.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on October 07, 2013, 10:08:14 PM

But, can you light a 100watt incandescent bulb brightly, using your body as the wire?

Igor Mosoz has shown that he can still touch the single hair thin output wire that is some meters long, and goes from the induction oscillator inside his house, and goes to the cement back-yard patio, where the ground connection is screwed into the cement slab. And then Igor lights 2000 watts halogen bulbs, through this hair thin wire, and is still able to this touch this output wire, with his bare wet hands inside a tray of water that is making the electrical connect, and show no shock from any of it. 2000 watts of Halogen bulbs, lit! Low voltage, but high amps, also not giving any electric shock.

Although what I am about to say pertains more in the Kapanadze/Akula/Dally threads, I think that the idea of what Igor Moroz is doing now, is a different approach, and also of interest here.
Here's one of Igor Moroz's more recent videos (below), he's working on the idea to reuse or recycle the output power drawn from his circuits, back into the input source (battery/capacitor bank), and maintain a balance going on there, while still lighting kw worth of incandescent bulbs, at the same time. He claims no OU results, yet, and is still working obtaining some more capacitors, to be able to feed back and self run his circuit.
But, sounds like he is getting close to it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ji-d_1i6eC0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ji-d_1i6eC0)

He's also got several recent videos to check up on, if interested.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on October 08, 2013, 03:26:32 AM

Quote from: NickZ on October 07, 2013, 10:08:14 PM
But, can you light a 100watt incandescent bulb brightly, using your body as the wire?

I would not advise that. As the power goes up so does the amount of energy penetrating the skin. This can result in "RF burns" where the skin gets burnt without noticeable pain until later (like getting a sunburn).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on October 08, 2013, 07:55:19 AM

Worse than that.... the power might not remain on the skin (it could have lower frequency components or the apparatus could glitch) and you can damage internal organs.

I used to light up incandescent bulbs by sticking a wrench into a Tesla coil discharge with one hand, and holding the incandescent in the other hand, touched to a ground. The bulb will light up brightly, all the power going through me.
I don't do this any more. When I die, they will probably find holes burned through my liver or something.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on October 08, 2013, 10:02:27 AM

Did you watch Igors video? NO burns, when using LOW Voltage, HIGH Amps. At least none that he mentions.
If I touch the 1500+ volts output of my Joule Ringer 3.0, I honestly can't take it. The whole room with smell of burn flesh. Its ferrite core increases not only the voltage, but the amperage as well. Not like the air coils. Ferrite coil burns hurt, a lot.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 09, 2013, 09:53:54 PM

Crowclaw and Xee2:

Thank you for the replies. I have been busy over here but tonight, I received 8 led chip modules in various configurations from dealextreme. (China) I was able to light all of them including the ones rated 2,500 lumen using the JT power tube with the ferrite rod core. In the interest of lack of time, I used my JT handy box powered by a modified flash circuit and it too lit all of the modules BUT, not as bright as the high freq. power tube did.

I wish i had time to post some photos. (I will this weekend) This core I bought (got 3 of them) is 6" long and I was considering winding about 500 turns of 32 ga. mag wire on one end and then sliding that into the JT power tube. This would give me 2 different outputs and I would like to see how much the amp draw increases vs the amount of light that I can get out of it. I know it won't be free but, I think that by adding the additional "secondary" coil on the core, I can get more light total for not that much amp draw increase.

What do you guys think?

I have not tested this on my scope as of yet. I am always concerned when hooking up the output of these HV JT circuits to my scope but have been told by several smart guys on here that it won't hurt anything. The ferrite rods are low permeability (and cheap) and I did not think that I would get anything decent by using them. I will also make a new circuit using just one of these long ferrite rods to see what happens.

These led chip modules burn brightly for sure. I tested them on my power supply using the rated input and they were bright but got hot right away even though mounted on a nice heat sink. Using the JT power tube or the surplus circuits, they remain nice and cold but are still blindingly bright.

I stupidly tested the output from the powertube again with my fingers and there is not even a tingle. I also did it with my JT powerbox (flash circuit driven) and got zapped really good. (as usual) It is quite possible that I may be an idiot.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on October 10, 2013, 02:45:12 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on October 09, 2013, 09:53:54 PM

I have not tested this on my scope as of yet. I am always concerned when hooking up the output of these HV JT circuits to my scope but have been told by several smart guys on here that it won't hurt anything.

Use a divide by 100 voltage divider to drop the voltage before connecting to scope. You can make one using a 1K and a 100K resistor. Google voltage divider.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on October 10, 2013, 11:47:35 AM

Keep in mind when making a ferrite rod to light those led bulbs, that if it has too high an output of voltage, it can burn the electronics circuits that those led bulbs have inside of them, after a while. Especially the little green caps. So, the voltage should not be very high, but the amps can be as high as possible. The ideal is 120v, at the connected bulbs.
My ferrite bead rod (below) can output about 1500 volts, on 12v single transistor Joule Ringer circuit. And the RF burns are anything but mild. But, I've burned out the inner circuits on the LED and CFL bulbs, in every case. As I run them, all night long, off of my solar system's battery pack. As well as burning out three multi-meters, already, that I've used to measure the circuits with, and the Exciter circuits, also.
If I lower the voltage, I don't get the same amount of light output. So, it becomes a balancing act.

NickZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on October 10, 2013, 01:36:52 PM

As some of us have been hot on the trail of building the Joule Thief, self-runner version, here is the first device that seems to fit the bill. Or, not?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoGfSDbnwbk

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on October 10, 2013, 02:02:51 PM

Quote from: xee2 on October 10, 2013, 02:45:12 AM

Use a divide by 100 voltage divider to drop the voltage before connecting to scope. You can make one using a 1K and a 100K resistor. Google voltage divider.

Very sensible...connect the 1k as the lower leg of the divider to ground while the 100k becomes the upper leg connecting to the HV side of course. Also use good quality high stability carbon film resistors, just reduces the possibility of arcing or tracking. Personally I would use several resistors in series to make up your 100k value.

Crow

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on October 10, 2013, 02:43:26 PM

Quote from: NickZ on October 10, 2013, 01:36:52 PM
As some of us have been hot on the trail of building the Joule Thief, self-runner version, here is the first device that seems to fit the bill. Or, not?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoGfSDbnwbk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoGfSDbnwbk)

Hi NickZ, very interesting, a translation of the replies would be useful. This guy's gone to some trouble to make a PCB so not the usual breadboard hook up. There are two ic's noticeable amongst the components also a rather stiff blue insulated wire crosses the board may be an antenna! May be a receiving circuit together with some clever design producing just enough voltage to keep going hence the need to excite the circuit with a battery.
That's the only thought I have. I wonder what those chip numbers are?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on October 10, 2013, 02:49:51 PM

@ NickZ

That looks like a scanning yoke from a TV or monitor you've used for your LED cluster spot, did you add any extra turns or used it as is. I presume it was from an earlier posting way back, if so must have missed it, nice one.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on October 10, 2013, 02:55:04 PM

@ Pirate

Hi Bill, worth trying that idea of yours, interesting to see how much inductive coupling you can produce.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on October 10, 2013, 03:36:57 PM

Crowclaw:
Yes, the ferrite yoke is from a CRT 15 inch monitor. I did remove the original windings, and replaced them with two thinner secondary coils, of 28 gauge mag wire. One of the secondary coils is used to light unmodified 110v CFL, or LED bulbs. And using both secondary coils connect in series,for lighting the gutted Cfls, which need a much higher voltage source.

I now use dual inverter circuits for lighting gutted CFLs, or florescent "halo" tubes, etz... So, Both individual driver circuits are connected to the same 12v battery input source, but their individual outputs (single wire outputs) are both going to each side of the florescent, or Cfl bulbs.
That is how I do it, in order to get similar to AC grid lumin levels. As most all CFL bulbs use dual driver circuits in their bulb circuitry. But, Led bulbs don't.

I'm also hoping to obtain more information than what was already given on the self runner circuit, shown by the Russian guy in the video posted previously. Although it seams like that is way too much to ask for, still.
NickZ

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 12, 2013, 03:41:19 AM

Xee2:

Thank you. I will Google the voltage divider. I have never heard of this and now I will learn something else.

Nick:

I have not as of yet burned out any LED bulbs I always gut the driver circuit except for the LOA bulbs that don't have any. It appears that the higher the voltage and frequency, the brighter the light...on an very low mA draw. (Thus far) (Interesting video. I am not sure what he is showing there though)

Crow:

I just purchased a resistor pack of like 300 resistors of varying values. I will see what I can do.
Yes, I will add a bunch of thin windings on the other end of the ferrite rod and see what I can get vs the additional amp draw.

I really appreciate everyone's input here. As you all know, I am still learning and I am learning a lot thanks to you guys.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on October 12, 2013, 04:19:34 AM

Bill:
When dealing with 12v batteries or higher voltages, instead of dead AAs like you've been using previously, you may find that over time, the much higher voltages provided by some of these pulse circuits (like 1000 to 1500v), along with some amps, can burn some of the unmodified Led, or Cfl bulbs circuitry. I mention this as a warning to some of us.
The Joule Ringer circuits using ferrite rods, or like the yoke cores, can also provide some amps of output, not just mAs. Enough to light incandescent bulbs fairly brightly,
Even gutted Cfl bulbs can show signs of carbonizing at the connection point, after a while.
This may not happen at first, but as mentioned, I run my circuits all night long, every night.
I also use these circuits when connected to ac 120v to 5v or 12v wall adapters, to power, smaller stereos, charge cell phones, as well as light led bulbs, or 12 car bulbs.
And I'd also like to try it on the new mini pc like the notebooks, 12v fans, etz...

Very interesting to see how it goes with the newer Led bulbs like those that you're trying out. They are not available locally here, yet.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on October 14, 2013, 05:16:58 PM

I've just determined that the 13003 transistors found in many CFLs can probably be used where 3055s work. Here's one "patched in" to one of my 2n3055 JTs, lighting a NE-2 on a depleted AA battery. (The 3055 is disconnected.) The neon seems to me to be a bit brighter than with the 2n3055, but I have done no measurements.

I also tried it in a low voltage LED JT and it worked, but not as well as the usual BC337 or MPSA18.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on October 15, 2013, 02:16:41 PM

An interesting effect:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NdGUEqZXko

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on October 16, 2013, 03:30:57 PM

Quote from: TinselKoala on October 15, 2013, 02:16:41 PM
An interesting effect:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NdGUEqZXko (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NdGUEqZXko)

Hi TinselKoala, the effect is due to an inductive coupling effect. The JT circuits by their very nature are rich in harmonic content and capable of radiative transmission. some of the more powerful circuits can transmit a fair distance. Try matching as close as possible the two circuits inductive properties and by connecting the led directly across its inductor you may find in close proximity it will light up. a few years back I demonstrated in this thread how this could be achieved. Purely as an experimental venture I managed to transfer the energy from a large inductive coil directly through a 9" brick wall to light two led lanterns outside my home. Similar principle used for charging small appliances without the need to connect via wires. One word of warning however, inductive magnet waves can have strange effects and may not be safe at higher power levels!
Interesting experiment none the less... Hey, I like your close peg adaption and 2n3055 mounting method under that inductor, very well thought out. Kind Regards Crow

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on October 16, 2013, 05:54:49 PM

Wireless Inductive coupling, yes. I use leds on small inductors near by all my devices to show me when the oscillator is running, even if the bigger bulbs may not be lit yet.
Here is a Joule Ringer type circuit running on a cell phone charger wall adapter, lighting a partially lit 60 watt Cfl, and lighting the neon av plug, as well as the single led on an small inductor. Notice that there is no shocking, while touching the lit neon bulb.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on October 16, 2013, 10:35:18 PM

Nice! What's the transistor there?

Yes, lighting the neon without shocking is pretty neat. Here's an old video where I show the output from a special TC system, lighting a neon with one wire, burning my flesh (see the smoke!) without shocking me, and then I light up some LEDs in series with the same neon. This is using the Gotoluc h-bridge circuit to drive the TC bifilar primary.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwbdvDms0Bk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwbdvDms0Bk)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on October 16, 2013, 10:56:18 PM

Most any npn will work, or pnp with reversed polarity. I think that was a 2n2222A,
I normally use the 2n3055, or TIP 3055 on the Ringer circuits.
For some reason the 2n3055 seam to be easier to fry. And I've burnt my share of them.
Lasersaber buys lots of 40 of the 2n3055 at a time. So, I guess he must also go through them pretty quickly. Can't be afraid to experiment though, good thing they're cheap. Ha!

Sweet little circuit you showed there TK, I like that neon in the center of the coil. I've built something like that but using leds, and placed the whole circuit in the center of the toroid. Would be nice to have something like that neon circuit self running though.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on October 16, 2013, 11:39:06 PM

It would be nice to have any circuit self running!

The best I've done is to make a neon JT operate from a legit wireless power receiver in place of the AAA battery. But something has to power the wireless transmitter!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYhISYeWGTo

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on October 17, 2013, 12:50:57 AM

Quote from: TinselKoala on October 16, 2013, 11:39:06 PM
It would be nice to have any circuit self running!

The best I've done is to make a neon JT operate from a legit wireless power receiver in place of the AAA battery. But something has to power the wireless transmitter!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYhISYeWGTo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYhISYeWGTo)

Nice demo. You seem to be receiving a lot of power. It might be interesting to see how much power the receive loop is picking up. You can do this by replacing the neon circuit with a resistor (100 to 1K ohms) and measuring the RMS AC voltage produced across it. The watts received will be voltage squared divided by resistance.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on October 17, 2013, 01:19:04 AM

TK:
Ok, I watched your video. I remember seeing it before as well. Nice.

Well the only self running circuit that looks sort of like a type of JT circuit, is the one I posted previously. This one here (below). If it's for real. As he needs to take it outside away and from everything, and not even hold it in his hand, and also show the back side of the PCB, to show that there are no hidden pre-charged caps, button cells, etz...
But, if that device is the real thing, it's the first on our block.

Here it is again:
http://www.overunity.com/7679/selfrunning-free-energy-devices-up-to-5-kw-from-tariel-kapanadze/dlattach/attach/128614/ (http://www.overunity.com/7679/selfrunning-free-energy-devices-up-to-5-kw-from-tariel-kapanadze/dlattach/attach/128614/)

Here I'm brightly lighting a neon on an AV plug, while touching the end, and no shock in this case, either, (60 watt CFL). Don't need a circuit to light the neon, even several inches away from the coil, just an av plug.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on October 18, 2013, 08:23:53 AM

Somebody asked me for the schematic for the Neon JT in the "Coupled JTs" video above, so here it is. This is also the same circuit as the 6-neon unit but that one has a variable base trimpot and a different inductor setup.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 19, 2013, 07:31:49 PM

I have found that the base trimpot, or VR, helps to maintain resonance as the input battery voltage drops over time. Usually, my leds will still be lit pretty well but, it helps to be able to "tweak" the circuit for the latest battery voltage condition. Again, I found this out quite by accident. (As usual)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 20, 2013, 06:30:57 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktSqIgdxIUA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktSqIgdxIUA)

Finally did a video of my JT Powertube showing that it actually works...well...it does now because I use a ferrite rod as the core instead of the battery.

This video also shows how you can tune the circuit by moving the core in and out and, it shows how I do NOT get shocked by the circuit due to the high freq. output as pointed out here by you guys.

Here I am lighting one of my new led chip modules rated at 3 watts.

Thanks for all of the help you guys.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gnino on October 30, 2013, 03:49:21 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPTW68qVJTU
Is a six-filar coil one strand positive to base 5 strand positive to collector
The bulb is across one strand

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 30, 2013, 09:44:47 PM

Quote from: gnino on October 30, 2013, 03:49:21 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPTW68qVJTU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPTW68qVJTU)
Is a six-filar coil one strand positive to base 5 strand positive to collector
The bulb is across one strand

Hello and welcome to this topic. I watched your video and, yes that light is very bright but I am not quite sure what you are doing over there. Could you give us more details on your circuit?

Thank you,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gnino on October 31, 2013, 03:34:49 AM

Hi the toroid Have six-filar winding connected in series
(Like tesla patent) one strand positive to base five strand
Positive to collector ,the bulb is across one strand
Don't look the value on the Schematic are incorrect
I hope is Clear my english is not good

Ciao Luca

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on October 31, 2013, 05:10:13 AM

When you start the video, the meter is showing the current at about 0.5 amp, right? Then you switch to voltage and it shows 25 volts or a little more, right?

It doesn't surprise me that a 12 volt, 35 watt bulb would get pretty bright on 25 volts, 0.5 amp supply. (I presume the lit bulb is one from the package you show.) Without a measure of light output it's hard to tell if the bulb is brighter than it should be with a 13 Watt supply.

What "Tesla patent" do you refer to?

Giving a schematic that does not show the correct component values, parts count and transistor part number, is like giving a person in Madrid, a London subway map and expecting them to find their way to the Louvre.

Do the "X"s within the circles mean the light bulb(s)? Does the schematic show two bulbs? Does the video show one bulb?

Please provide a _correct_ schematic that corresponds to the circuit you show in the video, with all the correct component values including transistor part number. If you don't know the inductances of the windings just give the number of turns on the toroid for each one, please.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gnino on October 31, 2013, 06:17:04 AM

Quote from: TinselKoala on October 31, 2013, 05:10:13 AM
When you start the video, the meter is showing the current at about 0.5 amp, right? Then you switch to voltage and it shows 25 volts or a little more, right?
Yes

It doesn't surprise me that a 12 volt, 35 watt bulb would get pretty bright on 25 volts, 0.5 amp supply. (I presume the lit bulb is one from the package you show.) Without a measure of light output it's hard to tell if the bulb is brighter than it should be with a 13 Watt supply.

What "Tesla patent" do you refer to?

Tesla bifilar coil 512,340
Giving a schematic that does not show the correct component values, parts count and transistor part number, is like giving a person in Madrid, a London subway map and expecting them to find their way to the Louvre.
Transistor mje13007
680 ohm resistor
0.1k 400volt capacitor across resistor
25 volt 4700 Uf buffer capacitor
Inductance unknown
Number of turn unknown old toroid maybe 30

Do the "X"s within the circles mean the light bulb(s)? Does the schematic show two bulbs?
Yes
Does the video show one bulb?
No the second bulb (same value) is between the positive of the power source and the positive of buffer capacitor

Please provide a _correct_ schematic that corresponds to the circuit you show in the video, with all the correct component values including transistor part number. If you don't know the inductances of the windings just give the number of turns on the toroid for each one, please.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gnino on October 31, 2013, 06:33:50 AM

Quote from: TinselKoala on October 31, 2013, 05:10:13 AM

It doesn't surprise me that a 12 volt, 35 watt bulb would get pretty bright on 25 volts, 0.5 amp supply. (I presume the lit bulb is one from the package you show.) Without a measure of light output it's hard to tell if the bulb is brighter than it should be with a 13 Watt supply.

You are right with 6 volt 2 amp straight dc I get aproximate same ammount of light
My questione is why the other bulb stay off?
Can you explain to me so i can move on in other direction?
Thanks
Ciao Luca

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on October 31, 2013, 07:20:14 AM

Thanks for listing the component values and providing the new pictures.

It seems that your actual apparatus has two transistors in it, but your schematic only shows one. And I can't tell how things are wired up, since you only showed the top side of the board. I can't tell from the pictures if the circuit is actually the same as what's on the schematic. Sometimes we make errors in wiring, and it's good to have another pair of eyes check to see if the schematic and the build actually are the same.

I don't know why the bulb attached to the power supply positive isn't lighting up... yet. It certainly seems at first glance like it should! Are you sure your wires at the bulb's base aren't shorted together somehow? Does this bulb work by itself with just DC power?

I still don't have enough information to reproduce your circuit here so I can test it with the oscilloscope.

I don't see any relationship between your toroid windings and Tesla's patent 512,340 which describes his bifilar coil winding as applied to a flat pancake coil with no core, although he does extend it to other coil forms in the Claims.

So right now, I'm puzzled about the extra transistor, and the non-lighting bulb in strict series with the input power.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gnino on October 31, 2013, 07:47:27 AM

The Circuit is right no short Circuit no extra transistor
I fool myself your observation help me to understand
The other bulb don't light up because across it i read Only
0,5 volt i think is like a Voltage divider,if i disconnect the other
Bulb amp draw goes to 1amp and across the bulb i read 1,5volt
Seeing a light bulb on and the other off fool me
Thanks and sorry! For waste your time for nothing special
Thanks again

Ciao Luca

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gnino on October 31, 2013, 08:00:44 AM

Quote from: TinselKoala on October 31, 2013, 07:20:14 AM

I don't see any relationship between your toroid windings and Tesla's patent 512,340 which describes his bifilar coil winding as applied to a flat pancake coil with no core, although he does extend it to other coil forms in the Claims.

You don't think that six wireless litzed and connected in series
End start end start end start.........
Is related to tesla patent?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gnino on October 31, 2013, 08:03:10 AM

The other is fast diode stpr1020 not in use
Here my old video similar circuit Whit it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oejW6bEnCZc
Ciao Luca

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tinman on October 31, 2013, 08:03:53 AM

@ gnino
The reason your lightbulb on the input dosnt light up,is because it is only disipating part of your P/in.The rest is being consumed by your inductor.You have series resistors in other words.The resistance of your inductor can go very high,depending on frequency-the skin effect can raise the resistance quit high. But on the output,your other bulb is in parallel,and recieves all the stored energy in the inductor apon the transistor becoming open circuit-the bulb recieving the inductive kickback. When you remove your output bulb,the inductive kickback takes the next path of less resistance,which is via the bulb on your input. This is when transistors start to blow up lol.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gnino on October 31, 2013, 08:19:39 AM

Quote from: tinman on October 31, 2013, 08:03:53 AM
@ gnino
The reason your lightbulb on the input dosnt light up,is because it is only disipating part of your P/in.The rest is being consumed by your inductor.You have series resistors in other words.The resistance of your inductor can go very high,depending on frequency-the skin effect can raise the resistance quit high. But on the output,your other bulb is in parallel,and recieves all the stored energy in the inductor apon the transistor becoming open circuit-the bulb recieving the inductive kickback. When you remove your output bulb,the inductive kickback takes the next path of less resistance,which is via the bulb on your input. This is when transistors start to blow up lol.

Thanks Tinman for your COMPREHENSIVE response Now i can go on
Found better use of the Circuit and start New project
I think to use it in René battery charger removing the capacitor
Thanks again

Ciao Luca

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on October 31, 2013, 01:57:24 PM

Tinman's explanation is correct, except of course that the inductor doesn't dissipate any power (except due to the resistance of the windings which is small). But the explanation doesn't quite go far enough.

I think that when you first turn the circuit on, the 4700 uF capacitor charges up fully through the first (dark) lightbulb, and the PS keeps this cap "trickle charged" during the circuit's operation with a constant flow of DC power. I think the oscillator portion is actually powered by this capacitor in short bursts of high power (current), so the second lightbulb lights up brightly. I think it would be interesting to scope a current-viewing resistor placed in series with this cap, before the junction to the rest of the circuit, and also another in series with the first (dark) bulb before the junction to the rest of the circuit, and compare the signals from these two points. Note that at this point, not having (yet) built and tested, I am still at the "I think" stage here.

No, a haphazardly wound toroid does not do what Tesla is describing in 512340. You will note from reading and looking at the drawings in the patent, that Tesla is neatly routing wires right close together that have higher voltage differences than in a normal coil. This is making a "capacitor" out of the adjacent wires. For this increased inter-turn capacitance to happen, you need to do what Tesla showed and talked about in the patent: Run wires neatly close together that have large voltage differences. I don't see that happening in your "hexafilar" toroid. The whole point of 512340 is the increased interturn capacitance, which does two things: it increases the total energy that can be 'stored' in the coil's inductance/capacitance, and it can help to reduce the value (capacitance, size, cost) of external capacitors needed to bring the coil into resonance at the desired frequency.

It's pretty sneaky ;) to have the fast diode in the TO220 case on your board, but not to mention it or tell us that it's not connected, until after you've successfully confused me by showing the circuit board.
:o

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on October 31, 2013, 03:00:33 PM

OK, I've reproduced the circuit as best I could with parts on hand. I used a 2n3055 transistor (thanks Bill!) and a 5-filar random toroid from an old PC PSU. Since I only have 5 windings I just eliminated one of the windings to the right of the bright bulb in your schematic. I used car tail-light bulbs, the lower-resistance filaments of the 2 in the bulbs. Other parts are as specified in the schematic.

The circuit works as I thought in the above post. It is "running" on the pulses drawn at high current, short duration, from the 4700 uF cap, which is being kept charged by a "trickle" of constant current through the dark bulb.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gnino on October 31, 2013, 03:11:18 PM

Quote from: TinselKoala on October 31, 2013, 03:00:33 PM
OK, I've reproduced the circuit as best I could with parts on hand. I used a 2n3055 transistor (thanks Bill!) and a 5-filar random toroid from an old PC PSU. Since I only have 5 windings I just eliminated one of the windings to the right of the bright bulb in your schematic. I used car tail-light bulbs, the lower-resistance filaments of the 2 in the bulbs. Other parts are as specified in the schematic.

The circuit works as I thought in the above post. It is "running" on the pulses drawn at high current, short duration, from the 4700 uF cap, which is being kept charged by a "trickle" of constant current through the dark bulb.

Ok thanks ,you look Whit the scope on it?

Ciao Luca

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on October 31, 2013, 03:16:31 PM

Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLmQwtlqKWk

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on October 31, 2013, 03:17:34 PM

Quote from: gnino on October 31, 2013, 03:11:18 PM
Ok thanks ,you look Whit the scope on it?

Ciao Luca

After lunch.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tinman on October 31, 2013, 04:27:14 PM

Quote from: TinselKoala on October 31, 2013, 03:00:33 PM
OK, I've reproduced the circuit as best I could with parts on hand. I used a 2n3055 transistor (thanks Bill!) and a 5-filar random toroid from an old PC PSU. Since I only have 5 windings I just eliminated one of the windings to the right of the bright bulb in your schematic. I used car tail-light bulbs, the lower-resistance filaments of the 2 in the bulbs. Other parts are as specified in the schematic.

The circuit works as I thought in the above post. It is "running" on the pulses drawn at high current, short duration, from the 4700 uF cap, which is being kept charged by a "trickle" of constant current through the dark bulb.

I must be looking at the wrong circuit,as i only see a 120nf cap,and a 1uf cap?-no 4700uf cap,which would indeed change things to how you stated TK.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on October 31, 2013, 04:41:16 PM

Quote from: tinman on October 31, 2013, 04:27:14 PM
I must be looking at the wrong circuit,as i only see a 120nf cap,and a 1uf cap?-no 4700uf cap,which would indeed change things to how you stated TK.

Confursed again? Have n't found the Louvre in Madrid, using your London map?

Quote
Tesla bifilar coil 512,340
Giving a schematic that does not show the correct component values, parts count and transistor part number, is like giving a person in Madrid, a London subway map and expecting them to find their way to the Louvre.
Transistor mje13007
680 ohm resistor
0.1k 400volt capacitor across resistor
25 volt 4700 Uf buffer capacitor
Inductance unknown
Number of turn unknown old toroid maybe 30

in post 16380 above. My bad, I should have said "other parts in gnino's list" rather than "in the schematic". Except I see now that I used a 1K resistor, maybe that's why my lit bulb isn't brighter.

ETA: Yep, I changed to a 680R (actually about 700, tolerances you know) and the lit bulb is significantly brighter.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gnino on October 31, 2013, 07:44:39 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJEzH8-mPsc

Correct value except Inductance
The Big capacitor is not doing work i leave in the Schematic with the diode for trasparence

Ciao Luca

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gnino on October 31, 2013, 08:19:15 PM

Tinselkoala if you want ,can you try this with your tesla pancake bifilar coil?
Drive the transistor with pwm
I think you handle mosfet better than me
So edit the Circuit as you like

Ciao Luca

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on October 31, 2013, 08:49:30 PM

Now that's interesting.

When I do this, I get a dim, but visible, glow in the first ("dark") bulb and a bright glow in the second one. My bulbs have two filaments, a lower and a higher resistance. The behaviour of the circuit strongly depends on which filaments I use.

You are right about one thing: if the 4700 uF cap isn't in the circuit, it can't be powering it!

I'm scoping the circuit in various places and I see some interesting things. I'll post some pictures later on this evening; right now we are dealing with goblins and spooks, witches and skeletons all demanding candy.

I'll try a different transistor too. I don't have the one you are using but I do have some HV transistors from old TVs, like 2sd2539 or 2sd870 that I can try.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gnino on October 31, 2013, 09:31:14 PM

Whit 12 volt battery same Schematic last video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfd_laZuPlc

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 31, 2013, 10:02:15 PM

Quote from: gnino on October 31, 2013, 09:31:14 PM
Whit 12 volt battery same Schematic last video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfd_laZuPlc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfd_laZuPlc)

Thank you for your reply to my question about components,etc. This might be very interesting.

Thanks,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on October 31, 2013, 10:32:27 PM

Quote from: gnino on October 31, 2013, 08:19:15 PM
Tinselkoala if you want ,can you try this with your tesla pancake bifilar coil?
Drive the transistor with pwm
I think you handle mosfet better than me
So edit the Circuit as you like

Ciao Luca

Yes, I'll try it but probably not until tomorrow, I've had a big day and I'm pretty tired.
The European symbols are a bit hard for me to decode. Is that an N-channel mosfet? I hope so because I don't think I have any P-channel mosfets in stock at all.

Any way, thanks for bringing this circuit to my attention. I thought I'd seen just about everything interesting a JT could do, but this is pretty interesting and new to me. I am still puzzled by the scope traces too, so I don't want to present them until I'm a bit clearer in the head (Heineken on Halloween, not good for thinking!).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tinman on November 01, 2013, 01:45:10 AM

@TK
The same thing applies.1 globe(input) is in series with the inductor,and the second globe(output) is parallel with the inductor.
This is basicly the same as that bifilar pancake coil setup i had,that was driven by an SG.If i knew how to find my old thread's,i would post the link here.You may remember it?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gnino on November 01, 2013, 10:41:01 AM

New video showing varius beahviour
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89r1WmcYn9Q

Yes N channels mosfet

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gnino on November 02, 2013, 07:09:40 AM

Hi i adapt it to "rene re-emf battery charger"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DX-AlamMsCc

Ciao Luca

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 02, 2013, 09:27:35 AM

Quote from: tinman on November 01, 2013, 01:45:10 AM
@TK
The same thing applies.1 globe(input) is in series with the inductor,and the second globe(output) is parallel with the inductor.
This is basicly the same as that bifilar pancake coil setup i had,that was driven by an SG.If i knew how to find my old thread's,i would post the link here.You may remember it?

Yes, I remember. You can probably find the old thread by clicking on the "community" tab and looking into the topic sections.

I saw the same kinds of things when working with the "Ainslie" non-clamped inductive test circuit, too. Using a 1 microHenry inductor in a demonstration with LEDs, driven by my F43 function generator:
(woops, i had the "drop bear" video there) it should have been this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t23ynqTc1fY
::)
Low frequencies make it through the inductor just fine, so when the inductor is switched across the LEDs it is an effective short circuit so the LEDs go out. When I raise up the frequency the inductor now can't pass the high frequencies, it acts as a choke, so when it's switched across the LEDs they don't go out, and in fact get a little brighter as the inductor "bounces back" instead of shortcircuiting the high-frequency input power.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tinman on November 02, 2013, 10:04:54 AM

Speaking about JTs,here is my cool joule working with no magnetic coupling between the trigger and driven coils.
Bit of a brain teaser for you all.-from 2.20 onward.And yes,that is heavy rain your hearing in the background.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7DlD8MIEes

And a replication from Jouleseeker
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPHfqQFCNtw

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 02, 2013, 10:09:44 AM

Hi Luca

I've redrawn your battery charger schematic to go into my notebook. I use this "rail-to-rail" format because it's easier for me to see what's going on this way. Please check and see if I've made any errors.

Have you tried just using a single, center-tapped winding on the toroid, with the same number of total turns as your six-filar winding? It would be great to have two toroids, one with the six-filar winding like you've got, and one with just one continuous wind, center-tapped, like I put in the schematic, for comparison.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 02, 2013, 10:27:33 AM

Quote from: tinman on November 02, 2013, 10:04:54 AM
Speaking about JTs,here is my cool joule working with no magnetic coupling between the trigger and driven coils.
Bit of a brain teaser for you all.-from 2.20 onward.And yes,that is heavy rain your hearing in the background.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7DlD8MIEes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7DlD8MIEes)

And a replication from Jouleseeker
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPHfqQFCNtw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPHfqQFCNtw)

Nice demo. The fact that the signal doesn't change much when you put the trigger coil into the field of the stator magnets is telling me something: the coil seems to be acting more like a resistor, not an inductor.

Have you tried this:

Calculate the AC impedance of the trigger coil at the frequency you read on the scope when the thing is oscillating. Now just substitute in a carbon or metal film resistor of the same DC resistance as your calculated impedance, instead of the coil. You will probably have to "tickle" the system to get it to oscillate, probably, by briefly shorting base and emitter or base and collector with a quick swipe of a bit of wire. Can you get it to oscillate at all when you do this?

That is some little rain shower you've got going there! Sounds like a typical Texas summer thunderstorm, what we call a "gully washer" or "frog choker" here, but without the thunder. Good thing your lab is nice and cozy and dry.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: tinman on November 02, 2013, 11:31:57 AM

Quote from: TinselKoala on November 02, 2013, 10:27:33 AM
Nice demo. The fact that the signal doesn't change much when you put the trigger coil into the field of the stator magnets is telling me something: the coil seems to be acting more like a resistor, not an inductor.

Have you tried this:

Calculate the AC impedance of the trigger coil at the frequency you read on the scope when the thing is oscillating. Now just substitute in a carbon or metal film resistor of the same DC resistance as your calculated impedance, instead of the coil. You will probably have to "tickle" the system to get it to oscillate, probably, by briefly shorting base and emitter or base and collector with a quick swipe of a bit of wire. Can you get it to oscillate at all when you do this?

That is some little rain shower you've got going there! Sounds like a typical Texas summer thunderstorm, what we call a "gully washer" or "frog choker" here, but without the thunder. Good thing your lab is nice and cozy and dry.

No,couldnt ever get it to work with a resistor inplace of the coil,but a lot of us got it to work quite well useing those little resister looking inductors.
Seems like it was the small amount of capacitance within the transistor that allows it to work with the uncoupled coils-inductors.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gnino on November 02, 2013, 01:18:51 PM

Hi i try this toroid and fail

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gnino on November 02, 2013, 01:23:49 PM

With this was like the original one I will try other toroid and trasformer in this day

Ciao Luca

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 03, 2013, 02:10:34 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDMoTEamTFY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDMoTEamTFY)

This is a new project that continues some research I did in a video about 5 years ago. Here I tie two HV-JT modified flash circuits in parallel. I can power them individually or tie two together off of one AA battery or tie two of them together operating off of their own AA batteries.

What I have learned thus far is that I only need to tie the positive inputs together and, I don't really need the second AA battery. I will be adding more flash circuits to this test rig and I will be testing the amp draw and, more interesting, I will be using a light meter made from an original solar cell made from the batch used in the first telecomunications sat. Telstar, launched in 1961. (Bell Labs)

The amp draw tests will be interesting. I do not think that it doubles when I add the second JT circuit, but, I will confirm this. The Cree LED bulb gets pretty bright and I think that if I add another couple of these modified flash circuits, it will be super bright.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 04, 2013, 07:53:15 PM

Here is a screenshot to show how bright the led bulb is running two circuits in parallel on a single AA battery. Later in the video it gets even brighter running on both AA batteries.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MileHigh on November 04, 2013, 11:39:49 PM

Bill:

I like the high/low options you get with your switches. If you don't mind I can mention an interesting project that simply popped into my head after watching your clip. Let's call it the "supercap lamp."

Imagine a large supercap, about size of a standard coke can or perhaps larger. Sitting on top of the cap you have two JT circuits. Then on top of that you have your gutted LED light bulb. With some effort you can imagine a "torch" that you can put on a table as a light. Naturally you have the option to put on a small lampshade. Two tiny switches are at the "neck" of you supercapacitor powered table lamp to select high/low for the light.

Someone with good build skills could make it look quite nice. Of you could go insane with hot glue. Or design a proper chassis to hold everything and print it out on a 3D printer. The big cap makes for a nice stable base for the lamp. How long will it run off the big cap? I am sure there are JT/LED veterans out there that can comment.

Now here is the hopefully cool thing that makes the project that much more fun. You get double-duty from the JT circuits. On the shaft of the big cap you mount some solar cells. Imagine long thin rectangular strips. Black cap - dark blue solar cells - shouldn't look too bad. So in the daytime you simply put your supercap lamp outside. You use the JT circuits to charge up the supercap from the solar cells. So that implies that you need another switch. Power is all low here so you could use very tiny switches. I would even consider using DIP switches in this application.

A little pop quiz question: You absolutely cannot have the JT circuits over-voltage the supercap. How can you do that automatically on the cheap and dumb? There is a smart easy solution for that.

This can be breadboarded to check if it makes sense. If it's a go, I think that you end up with a pretty elegant solution. Your set your supercap lamp outside or in a window during the daytime, and then at night you have a table lamp with two brightness levels that hopefully lasts quite a while. It's "solid" and practical. You just move it from point A to point B and flip a few switches and you have a self-charging supercap lamp with two brightness settings that you can put on your table.

MileHigh

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gnino on November 05, 2013, 04:48:58 AM

Quote from: TinselKoala on November 02, 2013, 10:09:44 AM
Hi Luca

I've redrawn your battery charger schematic to go into my notebook. I use this "rail-to-rail" format because it's easier for me to see what's going on this way. Please check and see if I've made any errors.

Have you tried just using a single, center-tapped winding on the toroid, with the same number of total turns as your six-filar winding? It would be great to have two toroids, one with the six-filar winding like you've got, and one with just one continuous wind, center-tapped, like I put in the schematic, for comparison.

Yes the Schematic is correct
I have try center tapped winding with little toroid 26 turn the Circuit draw less current so i move to 10 watt bulb and Yes there is little difference in the bulbs
TheN i hook up the six-filar coil and i go down in Voltage from the power supply to have the same ammaunt of light in the bulb
Result no difference the 2 coil act the same way
I hope to be clear my english suck, later i make a video

Ciao luca

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gnino on November 05, 2013, 06:29:07 AM

http://youtu.be/ff3gRLpEC5g
In the video im increasing and decreasing power supply Voltage to have with both coil same ammount of light in the bulb
For now the Only benefits of the multifilar coil seems to be Wind more
Turn in less time

Ciao Luca

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 05, 2013, 11:50:28 AM

Quote from: gnino on November 05, 2013, 06:29:07 AM
http://youtu.be/ff3gRLpEC5g (http://youtu.be/ff3gRLpEC5g)
In the video im increasing and decreasing power supply Voltage to have with both coil same ammount of light in the bulb
For now the Only benefits of the multifilar coil seems to be Wind more
Turn in less time

Ciao Luca

Don't worry about your English, it is fine. I understand you better than I understand many speakers of English as first language! You are getting your thoughts and ideas across very well, at least I think so.

You aren't seeing the benefit of Tesla bifilar windings because the true Tesla design depends on carefully winding the coil so that the turns are closely parallel, evenly and tightly spaced, and carry large voltage differences between the closely spaced turns. You are winding multi-strand coils but they don't qualify as Tesla bi- or multi- filar because they don't have the increased inter-turn capacitance of the Tesla system.

If you take a ferrite rod and a double-wire, wind a single careful layer with the doubled wire, then connect the far end of one of the wires to the near end of the other, you will then have a true "tesla bifilar" winding (although he used air cores). Each turn of one wire is between two turns of the other wire, and the voltage difference between the adjacent windings will be higher than between the turns of a single wire winding. This means increased capacitance between the windings and more energy storage in the coil during its oscillations. You should notice a difference then. (Ignore the green wire in the image below, it is a "primary" and is not bifilar-wound.)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MileHigh on November 05, 2013, 06:17:40 PM

TK:

You have to be very careful about what can be claimed with a Tesla "bifiler" coil. I actually don't like calling it a bifilar coil because it only has two terminals. I will use the term in this posting.

For starters, for a bifilar coil, the amount of potentially stored capacitive energy compared to the stored inductive energy for an imagined typical initial set of conditions is minuscule. There amount of stored capacitive energy might be say on the order of 10^-5 joules whereas the inductive energy might be on the order of 10^-1 joules. So with one ten-thousandth of the capacitive energy compared to inductive energy, it will be very hard to see and will not affect the typical operation of a typical coil.

Note also that this stored capacitive energy is fleeting and to really get a sense of what happens you would have to model it as a transmission line and do frequency and transient analysis in a massive CPU crunching party.

With respect to a JT, the coil does a pure inductive discharge into a "resistive" load, the battery. So you don't have any kind of ring-down energy at play here. You have what looks like a standard exponential decay of the current flow into the battery but it's not exactly an exponential decay.

Looking at the clip, and the size of the toroids and the windings, even a very neat bifilar winding would have a very very small transient capacitance value. If you disconnect the "mid return point" and turn it into two separate wires and then hook up a capacitance meter to the two separate wires, you would be lucky if you measured a hundred picofarads.

I view the Tesla bifilar coil as an interesting effect with respect to the self-resonance of an abruptly disconnected coil. We saw it in your early MHOP clips for a regular coil. But I can't envision a real-world application for one. Yes I am really down on Tesla bifilar coils (and I have taken flak for it.)

Gnino did not see any difference when he compared the two coils which is as expected. The idea of going Tesla bifilar in a JT circuit doesn't make sense. I give Gnino credit for doing an A-B comparison test between a regular coil and a bifilar coil with the same number of turns and build construction. That's what anyone experimenting and testing for any possible or alleged benefits or advantages should do.

The bottom line is that Tesla bifilar coil configurations may be a questionable solution looking for a question and an answer. I would love to see anybody do an A-B comparison test on any circuit where they can clearly show some tangible and measurable benefit from a Tesla bifilar coil with measurements. I have seen many clips where people use Tesla bifilar coils in their experiments by rote, they are just doing it because they believe that they are supposed to be doing it. It's akin to the "fancy geometry" coils that you see being used as the drive coils in pulse motors.

MileHigh

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on November 05, 2013, 09:46:05 PM

Quote from: MileHigh on November 05, 2013, 06:17:40 PM
TK:

You have to be very careful about what can be claimed with a Tesla "bifiler" coil. I actually don't like calling it a bifilar coil because it only has two terminals. I will use the term in this posting.

Have you actually read Tesla's patent 512340? perhaps you should, so that we are talking about the same things.

Quote
For starters, for a bifilar coil, the amount of potentially stored capacitive energy compared to the stored inductive energy for an imagined typical initial set of conditions is minuscule. There amount of stored capacitive energy might be say on the order of 10^-5 joules whereas the inductive energy might be on the order of 10^-1 joules. So with one ten-thousandth of the capacitive energy compared to inductive energy, it will be very hard to see and will not affect the typical operation of a typical coil.

Again, you are attacking a straw man that you have constructed yourself. Please read the patent.

Quote

Note also that this stored capacitive energy is fleeting and to really get a sense of what happens you would have to model it as a transmission line and do frequency and transient analysis in a massive CPU crunching party.

This is true. Analyzing TCs as lumped rather than distributed inductances and capacitances leads to incorrect conclusions.

Quote
With respect to a JT, the coil does a pure inductive discharge into a "resistive" load, the battery. So you don't have any kind of ring-down energy at play here. You have what looks like a standard exponential decay of the current flow into the battery but it's not exactly an exponential decay.

Looking at the clip, and the size of the toroids and the windings, even a very neat bifilar winding would have a very very small transient capacitance value. If you disconnect the "mid return point" and turn it into two separate wires and then hook up a capacitance meter to the two separate wires, you would be lucky if you measured a hundred picofarads.

That's right, for the kinds of strawman coils you are talking about, which include the randomly wound multistrand coils that many people call "bifilar". These are not Tesla bifilar coils, though.

Quote
I view the Tesla bifilar coil as an interesting effect with respect to the self-resonance of an abruptly disconnected coil. We saw it in your early MHOP clips for a regular coil. But I can't envision a real-world application for one. Yes I am really down on Tesla bifilar coils (and I have taken flak for it.)

Perhaps that's because you, like many people, have not actually read or understood Tesla's patent.

Quote
Gnino did not see any difference when he compared the two coils which is as expected. The idea of going Tesla bifilar in a JT circuit doesn't make sense. I give Gnino credit for doing an A-B comparison test between a regular coil and a bifilar coil with the same number of turns and build construction. That's what anyone experimenting and testing for any possible or alleged benefits or advantages should do.

Perhaps.... Gnino did that test because I told him that his coil was not really a "bifilar" coil in the Tesla sense, that a TBFC was the only kind of "bifilar" coil that would have different effects, and how and why, and because I suggested the comparison test to him so that he could see for himself. Perhaps.

Quote
The bottom line is that Tesla bifilar coil configurations may be a questionable solution looking for an answer. I would love to see anybody do an A-B comparison test on any circuit where they can clearly show some tangible and measurable benefit from a Tesla bifilar coil with measurements. I have seen many clips where people use Tesla bifilar coils in their experiments by rote, they are just doing it because they believe that they are supposed to be doing it. It's akin to the "fancy geometry" coils that you see being used as the drive coils in pulse motors.

MileHigh

People seem to expect all kinds of things from multi-strand coils, that is certainly true. In Telsa's day, as I have said many times, external HV capacitors were large and bulky and expensive and difficult to make. By building in extra capacitance in a _flat bifilar primary coil carrying high voltage high frequency pulsations_ the need for external capacitors is reduced and the effect of the coil's self-inductance on the speed of voltage transitions is reduced. Nowadays we can make HV/RF caps a lot more compact and cheaply so the added hassle of making a _real_ Tesla bifilar primary is seldom really beneficial: we just add more external capacitance instead and achieve the same practical result.

I have even seen people claim that a TBFC has zero inductance, which is a great misunderstanding and is why I always make the point that there are two common "bifilar" windings: the hairpin, which does indeed cancel inductance and results in a near-zero value, and the true TBF winding which still has practically the same inductance as a straight winding. But at the right frequency and voltage, a true TBFC nearly cancels its self-inductance and winds up looking like a "pure ohmic resistance" to use Tesla's own words.

Surely you have seen my videos where I compare the performances of flat coils wound with the same amount of wire, in both TBF and straight winding styles. When tested properly the difference is clear, even for my relatively tiny, relatively low voltage coils. Whether or not this clear difference is useful in any way, depends on what is done with the coils and the ingenuity of the experimenter. The difference, in a properly constructed TBFC, is clear, though.

http://jnaudin.free.fr/gegene/images/00512340.pdf

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MileHigh on November 05, 2013, 11:15:24 PM

TK:

Of course I read the patent. "Bifilar" means two wires, and four terminals. The Tesla bifilar has one wire and two terminals.

There is no strawman in comparing the relative energies at some nominal operating mode. The adjacent conductors in the wire are separated by the insulation and in terms of calculating capacitance that distance between the two "plates" is huge. I am constructing a relatively simple model for the device.

Suppose the true pancake bifilar coil has an inductance of 300 milihenries. It's just a guess for a typical flat pancake coil that someone might build with a diameter of say eight inches. Then you look at the separation between conductors and check the relative permittivity of the wire insulation and simplify that as a long rectangular capacitor and punch all the numbers into a capacitance calculator and see what capacitance you get. Then imagine the coil in DC resistive mode with one amp of current flowing through it and 12 volts across it. So that means the length of bifilar wire looks like a capacitor charged to 6 volts. Crunch the numbers and calculate the inductive and capacitive energy stored and compare the numbers. You should find a drastic difference in magnitudes between the two.

So when you go to disconnect the coil from the battery, the capacitance is so small that it would have to charge to insanely high voltages to soak up the inductive energy. Of course what really happens is that the air turns into plasma and conducts away a significant amount of energy before the self-resonance can start taking place. Even for very small coils this takes place.

The patent basically says that you can store more transient energy than a regularly wound coil because of the increased voltage across adjacent conductors. It also says that at the resonant frequency the two reactances cancel out and the coil will look like a pure ohmic resistance. This is a patent about the physical architecture of the coil itself and its electrical properties, which nobody can disagree with. That's all fine and dandy, but then what?

QuoteThat's right, for the kinds of strawman coils you are talking about, which include the randomly wound multistrand coils that many people call "bifilar". These are not Tesla bifilar coils, though.

I take it your point is that winding a conventional coil on a spool with a "Tesla bifilar" winding scheme is not a true Tesla bifilar coil because it has to be a flat pancake construction. That's fine but then what's special about the pancake? The patent doesn't say what's special about the pancake, but rather the drawing shows it as a pancake. I wonder if there is a lot of wiggle room there an and you can do it on a spool also.

QuotePerhaps that's because you, like many people, have not actually read or understood Tesla's patent.

That was after my comment suggesting that there was no real world application. Can you suggest a real world application?

QuotePerhaps.... Gnino did that test because I told him that his coil was not really a "bifilar" coil in the Tesla sense, that a TBFC was the only kind of "bifilar" coil that would have different effects, and how and why, and because I suggested the comparison test to him so that he could see for himself. Perhaps.

So you are saying a true pancake bifilar coil will have different effects? Can you explain the what, how, and why?

QuotePeople seem to expect all kinds of things from multi-strand coils, that is certainly true. In Telsa's day, as I have said many times, external HV capacitors were large and bulky and expensive and difficult to make. By building in extra capacitance in a _flat bifilar primary coil carrying high voltage high frequency pulsations_ the need for external capacitors is reduced and the effect of the coil's self-inductance on the speed of voltage transitions is reduced. Nowadays we can make HV/RF caps a lot more compact and cheaply so the added hassle of making a _real_ Tesla bifilar primary is seldom really beneficial: we just add more external capacitance instead and achieve the same practical result.

I made the point in another thread that you can connect a real capacitor to a coil and get a much more conventional LC resonator that will operate like butter. I also view the architecture as a work-around for not having readily available high voltage capacitors. For me that means you are back at square one. Okay, so with a wiring architecture implementation you create a "better" capacitor inside the coil and you have an LC resonator. Then what? Do you see my point? The patent was filed in 1893. In the context of the times you could indeed take out a patent on an LC resonator. But is there more to it than that? I don't think there is. I also know that the "spooks" for lack of a better term believe that there is something akin to a "hidden message" in this patent or it's one of many hidden message breadcrumbs that you need to collect and piece together to find the "real" Tesla technology. I don't buy that.

QuoteSurely you have seen my videos where I compare the performances of flat coils wound with the same amount of wire, in both TBF and straight winding styles. When tested properly the difference is clear, even for my relatively tiny, relatively low voltage coils. Whether or not this clear difference is useful in any way, depends on what is done with the coils and the ingenuity of the experimenter.

I am sure I saw your clips a long time ago. No doubt there is a difference. But can we do anything useful with that difference?

There was a promising television technology from a few years ago call "SED." The picture was awesome and the elusive black levels were _black_. But it got wiped out because of the LCD-Plasma war and they could not possibly compete against the continuously eroding price of the two main technologies - but the picture was better than both. It was a solution in search of a problem that the market decided wasn't really there. I believe that 3D TVs are also going to croak but I am not following that in detail. I see somewhat of an analogy to the famous Tesla bifilar coil.

MileHigh

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SeaMonkey on November 07, 2013, 09:24:58 PM

Quote from: MileHigh
I believe that 3D TVs are also going to croak but I am not following that in detail. I see somewhat of an analogy to the famous Tesla bifilar coil.

I would have to agree with that sentiment.

In Tesla's day his specially wound "coil" was a
novelty in a technology which didn't have many
options.

Today we have numerous options which
will get the job done equally well and/or
better.

The true bifilar wound coil takes on some
very interesting resonant properties at the
higher frequencies.

.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gnino on November 08, 2013, 05:52:36 AM

Quote from: TinselKoala on November 05, 2013, 11:50:28 AM
Don't worry about your English, it is fine. I understand you better than I understand many speakers of English as first language! You are getting your thoughts and ideas across very well, at least I think so.

You aren't seeing the benefit of Tesla bifilar windings because the true Tesla design depends on carefully winding the coil so that the turns are closely parallel, evenly and tightly spaced, and carry large voltage differences between the closely spaced turns. You are winding multi-strand coils but they don't qualify as Tesla bi- or multi- filar because they don't have the increased inter-turn capacitance of the Tesla system.

If you take a ferrite rod and a double-wire, wind a single careful layer with the doubled wire, then connect the far end of one of the wires to the near end of the other, you will then have a true "tesla bifilar" winding (although he used air cores). Each turn of one wire is between two turns of the other wire, and the voltage difference between the adjacent windings will be higher than between the turns of a single wire winding. This means increased capacitance between the windings and more energy storage in the coil during its oscillations. You should notice a difference then. (Ignore the green wire in the image below, it is a "primary" and is not bifilar-wound.)

Ok
I try to compare bifilar vs normal wound coil with my Circuit to see difference
First comparison i charge capacitor (with 220 lightbulb across it)with back-emf
And i look the Voltage ,no difference
Second i look i look the Voltage on a pick-up coil no difference
Here the photo of the coil they are both wound on the top of a coil
Like the one on the top of the photo wich i use for trigger coil

Later i will make a video
Why i dont see bigger voltage on the pick-up coil Whit the bifilar?
Maybe 25 volt isn't enough to see benefits?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on November 08, 2013, 10:26:22 AM

@ gnino

Here is a test I did comparing bi-filar and solenoid coils: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNtH9bp7QVo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNtH9bp7QVo)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: gnino on November 08, 2013, 11:32:45 AM

The video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huKivwkvpoY

http://youtu.be/oSXVKaHm4mc

But i'm not satisfied i wanna redo the test with magnet wire, this is with
Salvage litz wire and maybe there is some broke wire or i don't clean the ends properly

Ciao Luca

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 09, 2013, 02:45:52 PM

Quote from: MileHigh on November 04, 2013, 11:39:49 PM
Bill:

I like the high/low options you get with your switches. If you don't mind I can mention an interesting project that simply popped into my head after watching your clip. Let's call it the "supercap lamp."

Imagine a large supercap, about size of a standard coke can or perhaps larger. Sitting on top of the cap you have two JT circuits. Then on top of that you have your gutted LED light bulb. With some effort you can imagine a "torch" that you can put on a table as a light. Naturally you have the option to put on a small lampshade. Two tiny switches are at the "neck" of you supercapacitor powered table lamp to select high/low for the light.

Someone with good build skills could make it look quite nice. Of you could go insane with hot glue. Or design a proper chassis to hold everything and print it out on a 3D printer. The big cap makes for a nice stable base for the lamp. How long will it run off the big cap? I am sure there are JT/LED veterans out there that can comment.

Now here is the hopefully cool thing that makes the project that much more fun. You get double-duty from the JT circuits. On the shaft of the big cap you mount some solar cells. Imagine long thin rectangular strips. Black cap - dark blue solar cells - shouldn't look too bad. So in the daytime you simply put your supercap lamp outside. You use the JT circuits to charge up the supercap from the solar cells. So that implies that you need another switch. Power is all low here so you could use very tiny switches. I would even consider using DIP switches in this application.

A little pop quiz question: You absolutely cannot have the JT circuits over-voltage the supercap. How can you do that automatically on the cheap and dumb? There is a smart easy solution for that.

This can be breadboarded to check if it makes sense. If it's a go, I think that you end up with a pretty elegant solution. Your set your supercap lamp outside or in a window during the daytime, and then at night you have a table lamp with two brightness levels that hopefully lasts quite a while. It's "solid" and practical. You just move it from point A to point B and flip a few switches and you have a self-charging supercap lamp with two brightness settings that you can put on your table.

MileHigh

MH:

Sorry, I don't know how I missed your post.

That sounds like a nice project idea but, for me, not worth doing as I can not get decent sunlight where I live due to the trees and the way the buildings are positioned. I have tried several solar devices and they work, but not well as they might get about 1 hour of decent sunlight on a good day.

I like the idea of using the JT circuits to charge the supercaps but, will the 350 volts output from the JT's hurt the 2.7 volt supercaps? I wish I had purchased some of those used 3,000 Farad caps when they were in the surplus stores a few years ago...they were cheap like $15.00 ea. and now, to get one (New) is like $100.00 or more.

What I am trying to figure out with this current project is how/why the light gets brighter when I have been told by several folks that you can't put ac circuits in parallel and get any increased output? If I can, I will add more circuits this weekend and get some tests done on amp draw vs the multiple circuits. I also have a way to compare the light output on each setting.

Maybe these flash circuits output pulsed dc and not ac? I am not sure if that issue was ever settled one way or the other.

Thanks,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MileHigh on November 09, 2013, 03:45:33 PM

Bill:

The output from the JT's will not be 350 volts. The JT voltage output will directly follow the supercap voltage. So as the supercap voltage slowly increases so will the JT output voltage. That means there is a risk for over-voltaging the supercap only when the supercap is fully charged.

Note I am talking abut JT circuits, not your flash circuits. I can't comment on the flash circuit without seeing the circuit. There is a decent chance that your flash circuit is similar in operation to a JT circuit but that's all that I can say.

QuoteWhat I am trying to figure out with this current project is how/why the light gets brighter when I have been told by several folks that you can't put ac circuits in parallel and get any increased output?

In a standard JT circuit the LED flashes when the coil discharges, and we know the LED is a diode. If you put two JT circuits in parallel driving an LED light bulb you can imagine something like this: You swap out the original LEDs in each standard JT circuit for a diode. Then the outputs of those two diodes are bridged together and they drive the LED light bulb. In a scenario like this when one JT is discharging, the diode on the other JT becomes reverse-biased and that protects the other JT from being affected by the discharge of the first JT. So you end up with a circuit that funnels the discharges from both JT's through the LED light bulb. It looks like something like that is happening in your clip but I can't be 100% certain.

The same principle of funneling the discharges together could apply to charging the supercapacitor.

MileHigh

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MileHigh on November 22, 2013, 12:58:39 AM

Shock and awe, somebody has done something big with Jule Thief technology!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiI77x6VBMc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiI77x6VBMc)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Lakes on November 22, 2013, 04:36:22 AM

Nice and geeky, but $120 is way over priced for a flash light!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MileHigh on November 22, 2013, 08:27:45 PM

Just looking at the video I can take a decent shot at reverse engineering the flashlight in my head. The micro inside the flashlight has programmable timers that can output a pulse train with a programmable frequency and duty cycle. So the software just has to poke the registers to change the nature of the pulse train. The precision for changing the low and high pulse time is very fine, most likely the crystal clock for the micro.

The output pulse switches on a transistor that starts to energize an inductor. When the transistor switches off the inductor discharges through the LED array. Since inductors discharge pulses of current, you can precisely control the average current that flows through the LED array. The average current determines the brightness. You don't really need to measure the voltage, that takes care of itself.

The "secret" here is that you don't use any resistors to control the LED intensity. No resistors means no wasted energy burning off in the resistor. However, even the coil has a resistance. So the challenge is to energise the inductor so that it transfers power into the LED load with the minimum of lost energy burnt off in the resistance of the coil wire. So you assume that the designers of the LED flashlight tried to optimize the pulse timing for maximum power transfer efficiency.

You can probably find an LED flashlight in a Dollar store that has two intensities. So you can imagine that something similar is going on in the cheap LED flashlight that might only cost $3. So it would be an interesting project to reverse engineer one of those and it's cheapo shmeapo.

Then if you figured out how it works you could try hacking into it and using a larger coil and battery, as an example. Or, make the same circuit but using your own discrete components.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Farmhand on November 22, 2013, 09:30:44 PM

The flashlights are already in use and for quite a reasonable price, I got a surefire LED flashlight with 1000 Lumens High-Low and 10 Hz strobe settings (the strobe kinda makes me ill to look at). It uses a 7.4 volt LED and works from a 3 volt battery, they use the battery way down because they use an oscillator and and inductor. Calling it a "joule thief" without seeing the schematic is a bit rich. Any kind of oscillator could produce the same coil collapse to get higher than supply voltages to run the LED on, it is Boost converter topology in my opinion, then a bit more, Micro processors may be used to produce the signal. Hardly a JT. And in use for quite some time now.

Mine is a WF501b which mounts well and is bright as (blinding) and I intend to get a Cree T6 2000 lumen like listed below.

All the listing don't brag about the booster circuit but they do use it. An entire set with battery and charger for 27 dollars.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2000Lm-CREE-XM-L-T6-LED-Zoomable-Flashlight-Torch-Lamp-18650-Charger-/261215609941?pt=AU_Sport_Camping_Hiking_Lamps_Torches&hash=item3cd1a9e455&_uhb=1

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/CREE-XML-T6-White-LED-Zoomable-Torch-Flashlight-Lamp-Light-1600LM-Camping-/190923317086?pt=AU_Sport_Camping_Hiking_Lamps_Torches&hash=item2c73ea9f5e&_uhb=1

QuoteCREE XML T6 LED Torch Flashlight
Brand new and high quality
Materials: aluminum alloy
Applied high efficient booster circuit, can utilize the batteries in the largest extent
The beam can be focused.
Dimension: about 14*4*4CM
Housing Color: black
Flux luminous: about 1600LM
Lighting color: white
1 x CREE XM-L T6 LED
Lighting modes: 100% On, 75% On, 50%On, Strobe, Quick flash
Powered by 1 x 18650 battery
Zoomable
++ Package included ++
1 x Torch
1 x Battery holder
Packed in paper box

Is there anything new in the world, not much. ;)
To think that no one was using the boost converter topology to make better use of things is just ignorant.

Strings of LED lights also use a boost circuit to get the voltage required to run a string of LEDs from a 1.5 volt battery.

It's no big deal, nor is it new or fantastic or over 100% efficient.

For some reason a lot of posters think the rest of the world has their head in the sand. Obviously not true.
If it is useful it will get used.

Here is a picaxe controlled boost converter capable of over 50 Watts output fairly efficiently at up to and over 24 volts I made, it can do all kinds of jobs and is programmable to control power and maximum voltage. No Joule Thief required. The trick to use the battery right down is to use the circuit to boost it's own supply voltage, which I did not need to do. But there is even a chip sold to do it, can't recall the part no. I can try to find it, it was shown in a thread by SeaMonkey, it's a very ingenious chip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLnNgfaha10

I've shared the schematic and code for my booster before a couple of times.

Cheers

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 22, 2013, 11:35:08 PM

Well, the modified flash circuits are indeed Joule Thief circuits. (In my humble opinion anyway) The Inverter transformer has 3 coils and uses feedback to the transistor and it also works in resonance. If you retain the original transistor, it will run down the battery to about .5 volts. I am working on using another transistor that will run down well below that. Testing is still ongoing.

My point is that you can use this circuit with a single AA battery in a flashlight and run an 800 lumen led. Maybe I will make one to demonstrate this. I am not impressed with any flashlight that needs more than 1.5 volts to run. I looked into using IC's but all of the ones I looked at require 5 volts to run.

Obviously these flash circuits were not designed to be used this way but, I believe that they accidently gave us something great to work with that will run a lot of light from "dead" batteries.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Farmhand on November 22, 2013, 11:54:49 PM

As I said an IC exists that self boosts a very low voltage in some way so that the micro processor boost converter can work from less than 1 volt but supply the micro processor with the correct voltage so as to allow the micro to control the Flashlight LED voltage by way of a boost circuit. I think I seen it in a email as well from mouser electronics, but I cannot remember the exact chip or exactly what it did. RC4190N Chip is one. ZXLD383 works to 0.9v. PDF's attached.

QuoteThe ZXLD383 is a simple PFM, DC-DC controller combined with a high performance internal switching transistor, enabling
the production of a high efficiency boost converter for use in single cell applications.

Call it what we will the feed back oscillator itself did not begin with the Joule Thief I don't think. I think the Joule Thief is based on principals long known and used.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 23, 2013, 01:51:29 AM

Quote from: Farmhand on November 22, 2013, 11:54:49 PM
As I said an IC exists that self boosts a very low voltage in some way so that the micro processor boost converter can work from less than 1 volt but supply the micro processor with the correct voltage so as to allow the micro to control the Flashlight LED voltage by way of a boost circuit. I think I seen it in a email as well from mouser electronics, but I cannot remember the exact chip or exactly what it did. RC4190N Chip is one. ZXLD383 works to 0.9v. PDF's attached.

Call it what we will the feed back oscillator itself did not begin with the Joule Thief I don't think. I think the Joule Thief is based on principals long known and used.

I don't disagree with that at all. what we call the Joule Thief now has been around for some time. The earliest I can recall is a Russian fellow making one in the 1960's. So, I agree it is not new and it is NOT overunity at all. However, I can and do get free light from "dead" batteries in my home and I like that.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Farmhand on November 23, 2013, 05:14:56 AM

Yeah the thing I like about the "open source" flashlight is that it can be programmed to work in almost any way we could think of and code, which is very cool, the price is a bit much but it does have some neat features as well, still can be lost easy enough though.. One of the problems with the one I have is the modes and how they cycle. The remote pressure switch could just be a trigger for the open source one to do whatever we wanted it to do, through the coding, whereas with the one i have it just turns the light on, and each time it is in the next mode.. Writing hack code with no experience is kinda fun, but I much prefer to copy and reverse engineer it. ;D

I confess I haven't experimented much with JT's, I have some trouble with small self oscillating systems, not my strong point at all.

I have a great appreciation of the many very nice JT setups around.

Cheers

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MileHigh on November 23, 2013, 02:51:19 PM

I clipped out the nice block diagram + external schematic for the RC4190 chip.

You can see how the comparator is sensing the voltage output through a resistor divider network. If the voltage output is too high, the comparator output goes true and that blocks the oscillator signal from going to the transistor, which in turn prevents the inductor from being pulsed on. If the voltage output is too low, the comparator output goes false and that allows the transistor to start switching, which energizes the inductor, which then pumps current through the diode into the capacitor. I'm pretty sure that that's the basic negative feedback loop design for most switching power supplies.

So the basic design in the schematic is for a voltage source output, which is not a Joule Thief type output. Again, you need a current source output to emulate a Joule Thief.

However, the building blocks are all there. Another breadboarding adventure possibility. You notice that the signal that is going to the comparator input that forms the heart of the negative feedback loop is a "version" of the output voltage (from the resistor divider network.) So, in theory if you could feed a signal to the comparator input that is a "version" of the current going into the load, then you might be able to do it.

That suggests that with a current sensing resistor, and an external op-amp you could sense the voltage across the current sensing resistor with the op-amp's differential inputs and do something to condition the output signal from the op-amp to make it suitable to feed into the comparator input. In addition, if you were to do some experimentation, you will likely also be able to have the same op-amp input another signal, perhaps from a potentiometer acting as a variable resistance or perhaps as a potentiometer acting as a control voltage. That would be your adjustment for the current output level which could be used as a brightness control if you are driving one or more LEDs in series. Sounds like fun!

MileHigh

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on November 23, 2013, 08:11:41 PM

Another possible self-running circuit. Although it is not a JT, as there is no transistor, it will self-run, once kick-started, if what we see it true.
Simple enough for anyone to replicate it. It could help to prove the point of obtaining energy from the surrounding medium. The trick is how to upscale it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljKX9Om7Z4s

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on November 23, 2013, 08:19:48 PM

Guys:
Another possible self-running circuit. Although it is not a JT, as there is no transistor, it will self-run, once kick-started, IF what we see it true.
Simple enough for anyone to replicate it. It could help to prove the point of obtaining energy from the surrounding medium.
The trick is how to upscale it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTowOHDeB5Y

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MileHigh on November 23, 2013, 09:07:31 PM

NickZ:

Both clips are fakes. In the first clip they even state it in the annotations at the end of the clip and will be revealing how they did it in the future. The second clip is from this guy that is a kind of "free energy performance artist" and all of his clips are fake. Sometimes they are very tongue in cheek, sort of like he is sarcastically poking fun at himself and what he is doing. He wants you to laugh along with him. I think that he just invented his strange sounding English accent as part of his "character."

There are a thousand stories in the naked city.

MileHigh

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: NickZ on November 23, 2013, 09:48:11 PM

Yes, I know that the first video clip was supposed to be faked, although they don't show the trick, even later, but the second one was not.
But, how do we know that the second one is also a fake?
He needs to take it away from everything electrical in the house, like out into the yard, even maybe at night also, and show it working, then. He should have done something like that, if it did work as shown, but away from everything.
If it's also a fake, WTF do people do that?
No, you don't need to answer that.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MileHigh on November 23, 2013, 10:05:23 PM

From Wikipedia:

Power sources

Main article: LED power sources (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LED_power_sources)

The current–voltage characteristic of an LED is similar to other diodes, in that the current is dependent exponentially on the voltage (see Shockley diode equation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shockley_diode_equation)). This means that a small change in voltage can cause a large change in current. If the maximum voltage rating is exceeded by a small amount, the current rating may be exceeded by a large amount, potentially damaging or destroying the LED. The typical solution is to use constant-current (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constant_current) power supplies, or driving the LED at a voltage much below the maximum rating. Since most common power sources (batteries, mains) are constant-voltage sources, most LED fixtures must include a power converter, at least a current-limiting resistor. However, the high resistance of 3 V coin cells (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Button_cell) combined with the high differential resistance of nitride-based LEDs makes it possible to power such an LED from such a coin cell without an external resistor.[

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 23, 2013, 11:37:06 PM

Quote from: MileHigh on November 23, 2013, 10:05:23 PM
From Wikipedia:

Power sources

Main article: LED power sources (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LED_power_sources)

The current–voltage characteristic of an LED is similar to other diodes, in that the current is dependent exponentially on the voltage (see Shockley diode equation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shockley_diode_equation)). This means that a small change in voltage can cause a large change in current. If the maximum voltage rating is exceeded by a small amount, the current rating may be exceeded by a large amount, potentially damaging or destroying the LED. The typical solution is to use constant-current (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constant_current) power supplies, or driving the LED at a voltage much below the maximum rating. Since most common power sources (batteries, mains) are constant-voltage sources, most LED fixtures must include a power converter, at least a current-limiting resistor. However, the high resistance of 3 V coin cells (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Button_cell) combined with the high differential resistance of nitride-based LEDs makes it possible to power such an LED from such a coin cell without an external resistor.[

They do not mention that you can use high voltage and high frequency to light LEDs easily. Very little power at all and the voltage does not burn them up. I have no idea why this works like it does, it is something we discovered way back and I am still working on it.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SeaMonkey on November 23, 2013, 11:44:57 PM

Quote from: NickZ
If it's also a fake, WTF do people do that?

Fair question which does deserve a stab at
an answer.

The world of youtube has become very
competitive and members will often do
whatever it takes to increase "hits" or views.

Thar's Gold in them thar hills!

That be my take on it...

Quote from: Pirate88179
I have no idea why this works like it does, it is something we discovered way back and I am still working on it.

MileHigh has addressed this in prior discussion
and explained how and why pulsed LED operation
is advantageous within reasonable limits.

Hopefully he'll do so here too.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Farmhand on November 24, 2013, 12:53:43 AM

Here's an alternative to the "HexLight" "Open Source" programmable torch.

It's called "Nextorch" - Mytorch. Here they are on special for less than half price.
http://www.batteryjunction.com/nextorch-mytorch-18650-r5.html

Product page. Not open source though I don;t think.
http://www.nextorch.com/mytorch/en/main.html

Video some waveform and info towards the end.
http://www.nextorch.com/mytorch/en/gallery/myTorch.swf

They are available on the ebay as well. Similar price as the HEXLIGHT, the HEXLIGHT looks un-mountable though.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEXTORCH-P8A-Cree-XML-U2Torch-660-Lumens-Rechargable-Aust-Seller-Flashlight-/251376258065?pt=AU_Sport_Camping_Hiking_Lamps_Torches&hash=item3a87314c11&_uhb=1

..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Farmhand on November 24, 2013, 01:11:36 AM

I guess like regular diodes LED's could be made to be designed better for different uses like high frequency high brightness (strobe) on off that we can't perceive type use, or for high power constant current DC operation.

These 7.4 volt LED's in these LED flashlights, be they Cree or otherwise seem to be very good. Can anyone give an evaluation of what they can take ?

..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MileHigh on November 25, 2013, 09:10:04 PM

Bill:

As you saw from the diode/LED IV plot, i.e.; current vs. voltage, a diode can't sustain high voltage across it because it would instantly burn up. In conventional circuits you can think of a diode as a device that "clamps" the voltage across it to about 0.6 volts, or whatever forward voltage for the particular device. That's called the "typical forward voltage." As you can see from the IV plot, the actual forward voltage slowly increases as the current increases. There are many different types of diodes and LEDs. When you dissect an LED light bulb, they may be wired in series on the PCB. So by the same token you add all of the clamp voltages in series. But the designer of an LED power supply will forget about that all together and design the power supply for a given current output. By looking at the maximum wattage of the power supply and the rated current output you can determine how many LEDs it can drive in series by adding up all of their voltage drops. Suppose you know the power supply can drive nine particular LEDs in series. So you can put between one and eight LEDs in series and hook it up to the current-output power supply and not even think about it. In a sense there is nothing to measure or check as long as you know that you are not putting too many LEDs in series and overloading the power supply. With a conventional voltage-based power supply it's the opposite, putting more LEDs in series will make the LEDs dimmer and then go out completely. Like all current-source power supplies, it will shoot up to its maximum voltage output if you disconnect it whereas a voltage-source power supply does nothing, it just keeps outputting the same voltage.

So it's likely you never observed LEDs connected across across short pulses of very high voltage. It's much more likely that you saw that high voltage before you actually connected the LEDs. Then the voltage dropped to the forward voltage(s) of the LEDs when you connected them.

MileHigh

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 25, 2013, 09:51:21 PM

MH:

Yes, I agree, to a point. What you are describing is conventional and, that is how engineers design led driver circuits...no argument there. What I am reporting is things we have seen over the years where the voltage supplied, in high frequency (either pulsed dc or ac, that was never decided for sure) by far exceeds the voltage limits of the led and also, the power supplied is far short of what is supposed to be required. So, it was from this that I began to see that most leds, and now some led light bulb arrangements, can be driven with high voltage/high frequency and a lot of light can be had.

For example, I have some led chips (an array) that require 3 amps and 36 volts to light up. When powered by my power supply, yes it works well...very bright. So, I take an old AA battery powering a JT circuit and...bang...it lights up very well also. Now, not as bright as when supplied with what it wants but, very, very bright for just about 1 volt at very low mA's.

In past years, in my videos, I show a string of 100 leds (Christmas lights) that were factory wired in series designed to use 120 volts from the mains. Powering them with an AA battery and 350-400 volts, and about 200 mA's, they were actually brighter. So much brighter that I decided to add another string of 100 leds into the mix. Then I went on to do 300 and then 400 leds, all very well illuminated from this AA battery.

Maybe there is nothing to this, maybe I am misunderstanding what I have been seeing over the years. All I know is that I have a lot of very bright lights around my home running from "dead" AA batteries. My take is that we are "fooling" the leds somehow with the high frequency and, the high voltage does not fry them as it is pulsed. I have no idea what the duty cycle on my flash circuits is. I do see that we can supply a lot less power than they were designed to require and get very good light out of them. This, in my experience, is not true of incandescent, neons, xenon, nor any other type of light I have tried. It does work with cfl's and other tubes however, but they need high voltage anyway.

When I get brave, I will use my scope to see what the output looks like. I need to build that circuit out of resistors you told me about.

Bill

PS I can't refute what you say about the voltage drop of my circuits as I have never tested that. I don't think so but, I can not say for sure. My reasoning is that if indeed the voltage dropped to only what the leds required, what about the power they require also? That is not there. It could be even from an old AA but for only a short time. These circuits are driving the gutted Cree 60 watt equiv. bulbs for like 20 hours plus. My friend in Security is using his every night on his shift. (A good real world test) (See my Coleman Lantern modification video)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Farmhand on November 25, 2013, 09:57:50 PM

My apologies for staying on the LED thing.

Here are some Data sheets for the Cree LED's.

XM-L and XR-E units. The XM-L is known as a T6 model and the XR-E I think is known as a Q5 Model. Not entirely sure.

PDF's attached.

After a quick comparison I get from the Data sheets that the XR-E LED can take a direct connection to a 3.7 volt rechargeable battery to get the maximum 1 amp current. That LED also gives a spec for 1 kHz @ 10% duty of 1.8 Amperes.

The XM-L LED on the other hand with a forward voltage of 3.35 volts @ 3 amperes could be destroyed by a direct connection to a 3.7 volt rechargeable battery.

So I can modify the flashlights with the XR-E LEDs by removing the electronics board and still use the rechargeable 3.7 volt batteries, but not with the XM-L LED's.

..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Magluvin on November 25, 2013, 10:14:11 PM

Quote from: Farmhand on November 24, 2013, 01:11:36 AM
I guess like regular diodes LED's could be made to be designed better for different uses like high frequency high brightness (strobe) on off that we can't perceive type use, or for high power constant current DC operation.

These 7.4 volt LED's in these LED flashlights, be they Cree or otherwise seem to be very good. Can anyone give an evaluation of what they can take ?

..

Its possible those LEDs are 2 in one package and in series to be 7.4v. Unless there is new LED tech that I have not seen yet. Its possible. ;) Some laser diodes are stacked chips or even arrays in one package.

Pulsing LEDs definitely can send them into a higher realm of brightness and still have good life.

I just got a couple 10mm leds from RS that can cast an image of the chip glowing using a magnifying glass for a very sharp image on white paper, and as the pulse current is increased, you can see one edge of the chip go hyper bright, then another, then all. At that point where all sides are beaming, there is no need for more current, unless you want a bit more orange, yellows and reds in the output :o and ready to replace the led soon. ;)

Ill try to set something up to show what Im saying. Its pretty cool to see. ;D Last I did it I used 1- 3khz pulses. Naturally the shorter the pulses, the safer for the led at higher currents. ;)

Mags

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Farmhand on November 25, 2013, 10:16:53 PM

Found Data sheets Mags see last post. -..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 25, 2013, 10:17:57 PM

Quote from: Farmhand on November 25, 2013, 09:57:50 PM
My apologies for staying on the LED thing.

Here are some Data sheets for the Cree LED's.

XM-L and XR-E units. The XM-L is known as a T6 model and the XR-E I think is known as a Q5 Model. Not entirely sure.

PDF's attached.

No problem, that is why we are here. Neither of those are what I am using so, here is the datasheet on the 60 watt led bulbs. (Hopefully)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MileHigh on November 25, 2013, 10:33:09 PM

Bill:

I can envision what you are talking about. There is a technical explanation for that that could apply here. You can excite various components at high frequencies, not necessarily high voltages, and see very fast pulse trains across them. The AC impedance of the physical part itself comes into play. So it's almost a "fake" voltage. You see voltage spikes but that's due to the inductance of the wire in the part. The actual diode itself will have an AC impedance. So the LEDs light up, and voltage spikes are kind of "sprinkled on top" of the current flow through the LEDs. So the assumption is that this process can take place at high voltages also.

I am not challenging your observations about the apparent brightness, just saying that there is a voltage "fuzz" on top of the signal that is actually powering the LEDs.

You would probably need a proper ultra low inductance current sensing resistor to see the actual current flowing through the circuit.

With respect to the question of what waveform makes the LED appear to be bright, there are other issues at play like the longevity of the LEDs. It may be that a "high spikey" current going through the LED makes it appear to be brighter, but at the expense of the premature shortening of the life of the LED. I am just speculating of course. You have to assume that there are diminishing returns as you increase the current flow, and of course eventually heat dissipation becomes a problem. It makes me curious about what the current waveform output looks like for a "real" LED power supply used for architectural lighting. There are fixed and dimmable versions. Will there be tell-tale inductive discharge spikes or will it look like DC? What about a dimmable LED power supply? I cheated and peeked at a chip. It fancier than and better than my suggestion for the previous chip that Farmhand pointed out. They do variable PWM, pulse width modulation, of a continuous fixed-frequency control signal that goes to the transistor base input. So there is always a current pulse stream going to the LED, and the size of the pulses is controlled by the PWM signal. That makes sense, whereas my suggestion for Farmhannd's chip was a bad kludge.

What's interesting is that there is a good chance that the inductor has continuous current flowing through it. It either goes into the LED or goes into the transistor. When it goes into the transistor the coil is being energized. So the LED sees a full-blown pulse train that looks like a square wave going from no current (like "ground") to a certain level. The LED never sees the current/voltage decay to zero. That's because below a certain current level, the LED is useless and not doing its job. So to be more efficient they avoid the decay to zero alltogether.

Even though I am talking about current all the time here, in this case you can look at the voltage across your LED on your scope. You should (I hope) see a nice pulse train with sharp rise and fall times and a slightly slanted "hat." That's telling you that there is a sharp on-off current pulse going through the LED at sufficient current level to light it up and no current is being "wasted" with the useless decay to zero.

The key to all of this is to use a relatively small inductor, not sure if there will be a core, and switch that sucker at a relatively high frequency, perhaps between 30 KHz and 60 KHz. It's small and cheap and does the job.

MileHigh

P.S.: You would have to be worried about your scope here and make sure that it's not grounded if you were going to peek at the waveform across the LED if in any way the LED was deriving its power from the mains. Disconnect the third prong. I assume that all scopes have their own isolation transformers for their main AC power input. Honestly, I would still buy a real isolation transformer to keep handy all the time.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Magluvin on November 25, 2013, 10:37:18 PM

Quote from: Farmhand on November 25, 2013, 10:16:53 PM
Found Data sheets Mags see last post. -..

I see. ;) Both indicate 3.3 to 3.9v. Which is typical. ;) 8000v max short pulse. :o :o ??? Ive been blinded with science!! ;D

Mags

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Farmhand on November 26, 2013, 01:24:36 AM

Yeah wow ESD withstand voltage (HBM per Mil-Std-883D) - 8000 volts, maybe some step towards protection from energy weapons for mil-spec stuff, emp maybe.

Who would have thunk LED's could be so interesting and output so much light ? Lordy.

My little 501b LED torch almost outperforms one of those 10 million candle power Spotlights with a 7 amp hour battery in it. :) Lot's easier to carry for sure, kilo's difference.

..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Farmhand on November 26, 2013, 05:46:46 PM

Hi Pirate, I like those LED light globes. Cree seems to be on the cutting edge of LED tech.

Do they really make better light, or a more natural light allowing us to see more natural colors ?

One thing that annoys me is that most lights make white- LED's or yellow-incandescent or some other non natural good light level illumination, regular fluro's flicker at 50Hz.

Another thing is heat and toxicity, they say they contain no mercury, and going by the efficiency for illumination I am guessing they have almost eliminated most of the heat losses, so the light is only a light and not a heater as well. That's a big point to me. And no mercury, awesome.

I'ma gonna try to get some from the ebay. :P I like lights, lights are part of the very core of what is is to be human, to control light artificially. 8)

Cheers

Curiosity killed the cat because it caused him to get in the way of a curious human.

..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 26, 2013, 09:36:46 PM

Farmhand:

Yes, these led bulbs are great! The color is good and the light is very good when run on the mains. I am in the process of swapping my last surviving cfls (most of them burned out in about 3 months) to these bulbs.

I believe they even offer a version that has a coating on the inside of the glass to better represent "true" colors. There is a bit of heat when using these on the mains power. They have provided a nice heat sink but, I have added even more using an adult beverage (beer can) cut and mounted to the base. This may not be needed but, it gave me something to do.

There is no heat at all when using them on my modified flash circuits....zip, zero nada. Which I like. Milehigh has provided a possible explanation as to why I see what I see when using high voltage/high frequency on these types of leds. I really appreciate that and I need to re-read his post before responding. This is what I like about this site, I can observe something and posit why I think what I see is happening. Then, the smart guys that know a lot of stuff can jump in with their opinion. This is how I learn.

Try a few of these bulbs....like $10 each at Home Depot (Here in the US) See what you think. I think you will like them. I do gut the inside driver boards from them when running them from the JT circuits. I am just using the leds themselves. The best light for the buck I have found so far....but, there is a lot of work going on in this area and it will get even better.

I too am fascinated with light for some reason.

Bill

PS I attached a photo of my heat sink design. Again, probably not really needed but, when run on the mains, it can't hurt right?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 28, 2013, 06:51:46 PM

Quote from: MileHigh on November 25, 2013, 10:33:09 PM
Bill:

I can envision what you are talking about. There is a technical explanation for that that could apply here. You can excite various components at high frequencies, not necessarily high voltages, and see very fast pulse trains across them. The AC impedance of the physical part itself comes into play. So it's almost a "fake" voltage. You see voltage spikes but that's due to the inductance of the wire in the part. The actual diode itself will have an AC impedance. So the LEDs light up, and voltage spikes are kind of "sprinkled on top" of the current flow through the LEDs. So the assumption is that this process can take place at high voltages also.

I am not challenging your observations about the apparent brightness, just saying that there is a voltage "fuzz" on top of the signal that is actually powering the LEDs.

You would probably need a proper ultra low inductance current sensing resistor to see the actual current flowing through the circuit.

With respect to the question of what waveform makes the LED appear to be bright, there are other issues at play like the longevity of the LEDs. It may be that a "high spikey" current going through the LED makes it appear to be brighter, but at the expense of the premature shortening of the life of the LED. I am just speculating of course. You have to assume that there are diminishing returns as you increase the current flow, and of course eventually heat dissipation becomes a problem. It makes me curious about what the current waveform output looks like for a "real" LED power supply used for architectural lighting. There are fixed and dimmable versions. Will there be tell-tale inductive discharge spikes or will it look like DC? What about a dimmable LED power supply? I cheated and peeked at a chip. It fancier than and better than my suggestion for the previous chip that Farmhand pointed out. They do variable PWM, pulse width modulation, of a continuous fixed-frequency control signal that goes to the transistor base input. So there is always a current pulse stream going to the LED, and the size of the pulses is controlled by the PWM signal. That makes sense, whereas my suggestion for Farmhannd's chip was a bad kludge.

What's interesting is that there is a good chance that the inductor has continuous current flowing through it. It either goes into the LED or goes into the transistor. When it goes into the transistor the coil is being energized. So the LED sees a full-blown pulse train that looks like a square wave going from no current (like "ground") to a certain level. The LED never sees the current/voltage decay to zero. That's because below a certain current level, the LED is useless and not doing its job. So to be more efficient they avoid the decay to zero alltogether.

Even though I am talking about current all the time here, in this case you can look at the voltage across your LED on your scope. You should (I hope) see a nice pulse train with sharp rise and fall times and a slightly slanted "hat." That's telling you that there is a sharp on-off current pulse going through the LED at sufficient current level to light it up and no current is being "wasted" with the useless decay to zero.

The key to all of this is to use a relatively small inductor, not sure if there will be a core, and switch that sucker at a relatively high frequency, perhaps between 30 KHz and 60 KHz. It's small and cheap and does the job.

MileHigh

P.S.: You would have to be worried about your scope here and make sure that it's not grounded if you were going to peek at the waveform across the LED if in any way the LED was deriving its power from the mains. Disconnect the third prong. I assume that all scopes have their own isolation transformers for their main AC power input. Honestly, I would still buy a real isolation transformer to keep handy all the time.

MH:

Thanks for the reply. I am glad to see there might be a classical explanation for my observations. As you know I have not put any of these flash circuits on the scope but, I do check amp draw and the Cree 60 watt equiv. draws 210 mA's, which is really not bad for the amount of light. It is rated to require much more than that from the mains, of course, and, I am not getting mains brightness for sure. BUT, given the power used and the voltage supplied by a "dead" AA battery, there is a lot of light here for many, many hours, so, while not OU or anything,a worthwhile effort for me.

I like your explanation here because it seems to fit with my crude description of "fooling" the leds that they have what they need to light up. Maybe like a surface charge on a battery to show more voltage than is really available. We all know about duty cycle and how our eyes are fooled into seeing constant light when it is pulsed, so, that is routine with any JT circuit.

What I guess I am trying to say here is that I am lighting led modules with so little power from their rating that, they should not even turn on, but they do and are pretty bright.

TK has some of my circuits and a little led module I sent to him so maybe he can add his thoughts to this if he chooses to do so. I would be happy to send one to you as well if you would like to see what it can, and cannot do. I was wanting to market these on my website but, after seeing TK getting shocked by one in a short video he made, I might have second thoughts. I get nailed all the time by these even though I "know" better. I can just see the lawsuits, ha ha.

I just think it is funny when I go to Hackaday and see some guy lighting 10 leds using 12 volts, and they think that is great. They also seem to think the JT is just for lighting 1 led. I can light hundreds on an AA but they don't seem to be interested.

Thanks for the reply.

Bill

PS PM me if you would like one of these circuits to play with.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MileHigh on November 28, 2013, 08:04:25 PM

Bill:

Thanks for the offer but I am fine. Let me describe the "Cadillac" Joule Thief "prototype station" or "test bed" for fun.

When you strip a JT to the bare bones what you have is a transistor switch that energizes an inductor, then the switch switches off and the inductor discharges through the LED.

There are several variables that you can change to experiment with the magnitude and shape of the current/voltage pulse generated when the inductor discharges through the LED or LED array.

The coil energizing voltage
The inductance of the coil
The initial current when the coil discharge starts
The amount of time the transistor is on *
The amount of time the transistor is off *

(* aka the frequency and duty cycle of the pulse train that controls the transistor)

In addition to this, naturally you would want to measure the average current consumption so you would know your input power.

You could use a signal generator or a dual 555 setup to have full control over the signal that controls the switching on and off of the transistor. For sure there are dozens of Arduino programs that will do that for you.

Then you can just play with the variables to your heart's delight, looking for the most bang for your buck. The whole thing could be done on a single breadboard. You check the spec sheet for your LEDs to check the recommended operating current and maximum current vs. time for the LED to make sure you don't blow it.

Supposing you find a sweet spot. Then comes the real interesting challenge. The challenge is to create a Joule Thief circuit that emulates the coil and timing configuration that you got from your test bed. So you have to engineer a Joule Thief. At least you have the coil and the power source already done. So perhaps by playing with the number of turns in the secondary coil that goes to the transistor base input resistor you will be able to get the timing to match. Then you would have engineered your very own optimized Joule Thief.

MileHigh

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 30, 2013, 06:23:19 PM

MH:

I like your idea. I actually have a test rig I made for testing the HV/JT circuits in parallel, which shows a gain of light output for adding the second circuit, the third circuit added actually hurts the light output. Now I am going to see if I can run two of these circuits in series...I do not know if that is possible but, we will see.

With your testing system, you are right that you could alter each of the variables and hopefully obtain the optimum configuration. The only thing I would add, as I am now doing, would be to have a trimpot in the circuit so once you run on battery power, you can adjust the circuit to stay in the best conditions as the battery depletes. I purchased a bunch of these trimpots (20 turn) for this purpose.

Once again, I appreciate your input. I still believe that we have not reached the end for designing and building the "perfect" JT circuit. I still think that more research needs to be done using JT's that output at least 350 volts. I would like to play with the frequency and the duty cycle as you have suggested and your test rig would fit the bill.

Thanks,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on December 01, 2013, 02:50:59 PM

Hi Pirate, MH has answered the question exceptionally well. finding the ideal sweet spot by experiment is certainly not an easy task to accomplish, bearing in mind circuit characteristics vary so much and change considerably with applied voltage. In essence providing the spikes are of sufficient amplitude and the current is not allowed to cause thermal runaway led's will provide some degree of brightness. The art is as mentioned finding the ideal circuit balance and efficiency becomes the ultimate challenge. The JT circuit however is not necessary the best circuit for the task from many angles. MH mentioned the use of the popular 555 timer or alternative an arduino. For some time I had outdoor led lighting using switched inductors producing narrow high voltage spike pulses driven from a 555 astable incorporating inbuilt thermal compensation for outdoor temperature changes.
Crow

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 02, 2013, 09:05:31 PM

Quote from: crowclaw on December 01, 2013, 02:50:59 PM
Hi Pirate, MH has answered the question exceptionally well. finding the ideal sweet spot by experiment is certainly not an easy task to accomplish, bearing in mind circuit characteristics vary so much and change considerably with applied voltage. In essence providing the spikes are of sufficient amplitude and the current is not allowed to cause thermal runaway led's will provide some degree of brightness. The art is as mentioned finding the ideal circuit balance and efficiency becomes the ultimate challenge. The JT circuit however is not necessary the best circuit for the task from many angles. MH mentioned the use of the popular 555 timer or alternative an arduino. For some time I had outdoor led lighting using switched inductors producing narrow high voltage spike pulses driven from a 555 astable incorporating inbuilt thermal compensation for outdoor temperature changes.
Crow

I agree with your description of MH's input. Excellent advice for experimentation. my problem with 555's and the like is that they need too many volts to run. (Not for testing mind you) What I want to learn about is what is under those gray blobs in my solar garden lights. We have decided (as a group here) that under that blob is the chip that makes up the JT circuit. The green resistor looking component is an inductor I have been told. So, I want to know what chip is under there that will operate down to .6 volts and perform like a JT circuit to light an led requiring 3 volts from a 1.2 volt rechargeable battery. If I could get some of these, I would make circuits using them. I would also try the things that MH has suggested to perfect it. I can not find any chips out there that might do this. Is this why they are hidden under that glob of gray goo? Possibly I can do some surgery with a dremel to see what it might be.

Anyway, I have nothing against the chip approach except that the 555's all want like 5 volts or more to run.

Anyone know what that garden light chip might be?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Magluvin on December 02, 2013, 09:35:37 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 02, 2013, 09:05:31 PM
What I want to learn about is what is under those gray blobs in my solar garden lights. We have decided (as a group here) that under that blob is the chip that makes up the JT circuit.

Those globs have been around since i was a kid. Near 50 now. ;D

Seeing some being put together, back then, it was like looking in the window of an old ROM chip, you can see the tiny wires that connect the chip to the IC pin runners. Little gold wires. These were done the same back then, but on the board instead of an IC housing.

Today they may be SM soldered, havnt looked lately, but still possibly done like back then. Then the glob is applied to protect the chip and fragile connections. The globs are hard like plastic, no flex or the connections could be severed by some bending of the board.

So removing the glob may ruin connections, and may reveal a 'whole' chip, but just the chip. No numbers or identifiers. These are usually custom jobs. Made on the cheapest scale, well, so they are cheap. ;) Disposable, and all together(the end product) made for pennies. And usually are one off designs for a particular device and not made available for other purposes. Also, usually used in items that are never intended to be repaired. ;)

Mags

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 02, 2013, 10:14:28 PM

Mags:

I don't doubt what you say at all. Yes, they are cheap and just designed for a single purpose. You can get those led garden lights at the right time of year for like $2 (US) ea. And, you get an led, nice solar cell, and a decent rechargeable AA or AAA battery. I just wish we could get those chips and then we could make nice efficient JT's without winding inductors and would not need an additional transistor either.

I have many 555's here but don't use them because of the volts required. Maybe I need to think a little bigger?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MileHigh on December 02, 2013, 11:50:19 PM

Bill:

There is an interesting design for a 555-based JT that I can suggest to you. It's all about "thinking outside of the box." I have been told that I suck at that! lol

For starters, it's pretty easy to find a 555 that will run down to 1.5 volts, so that's a start. The spec sheet is attached.

But I am going to throw a curve ball at you and I will design something from scratch. It just popped into my head, the Mother of Invention thing.

Why not separate the timing power from the coil power? Let's say you have a "timing battery" and a "coil battery." If you do it right, let's say you use three new alkaline AA batteries for 4.5 volts as the timing battery. If you do things right that should last for several years. For the coil battery, you keep on using your single used AA batteries.

If you use a CMOS 555 timer and for the timing components you use the highest resistance and smallest capacitance possible, then you will have a 555 timer circuit that sips just a hundred or so microamperes. Also, don't use a transistor if possible, use a MOSFET. You don't want to have to supply base current to a transistor because that will drain your timing batteries.

So now the problem of a 555 timer that doesn't work properly at low voltage goes away completely - for years. Yet you are still using a 555 and there is a big advantage here. The 555 uses much much less power than the JT feedback mechanism to implement the timing part of the circuit. It might use 1000 times less power. Big savings there. Plus you can't forget that when you separate the timing circuit power from the coil power, the actual overhead to implement the timing is "zero" - the coil battery only powers the coil to light the LEDs, it does nothing else than that. So your used AA batteries should last longer.

There are a few things to check out with respect to the MOSFET on resistance and the LEDs and stuff like that. When the transistor is on, typically the collector-emitter voltage can get down to 0.2 volts, which is pretty good. If one MOSFET or possibly two in parallel can give you a drain-source voltage of something close to that (when the JT is running) then you should be in pretty good shape.

If you can configure the 555 to run at a desired frequency and have a single pot adjust the pulse width to the MOSFETs, then you have a brightness control. That's a nice thing to have. Also, as the main coil battery starts to croak and the LED gets too dim, then you can turn up the brightness to compensate until you suck the last bit of juice out of the battery.

Can you visualize that? A little box with three batteries inside for the 555 timing circuit that you might only have to replace in three or four years. You have a potentiometer for a brightness control and a place to drop in one or two used AA batteries or batteries that you recharge with your solar charger during the day. Perhaps you could even change the paradigm and use a big fat rechargeable D cell that you charge with a solar panel during the day.

Once you have the CMOS 555 timing circuit worked out to your satisfaction, then you can do whatever you want on the "power side" of the equation. i.e.; you could for example have the same 555 circuit power three sets of MOSFETs with three power batteries and three small toroidal inductors with ferrite cores and three strings of LEDs for perhaps a full blown room light.

It could be a fun project. Take it from a guy that can't think outside of the box.

MileHigh

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 03, 2013, 12:20:27 AM

MH:

With all sincerity, this just might be GENIUS!! By dividing the two functions of the battery, you can allow each part of the circuit to do what it does best....no compromise. Let those batteries run the 555...that's all they ever have to do. The other, as you said, can be a "dead" AA or whatever.

I have never read of nor heard of this approach before...this is a first. I am not sure I have the needed skills to make this, but I will give it a go. I hope that others with more knowledge will try this as it is an entire new way of looking at our humble little JT circuit.

I am very impressed Sir. Don't settle for this, or settle for that, let each part do what they need to do. This is a fantastic idea!

I really hope others on here take a look at this. I will post my failures on Youtube to hopefully get others on board.

Very well done MH. You destroyed my argument against using the 555's.

I know that mosfets can handle decent power, so no probs there. Do you think, depending on the inductor, that I could get 350-400 volts out of such a circuit? Maybe more?

This is a great idea!

Bill

***EDIT***

Here is a 555 that will run on 2 volts. http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/TLC555CP/296-1857-5-ND/277502 (http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/TLC555CP/296-1857-5-ND/277502)

***EDIT***

I see that the PDF you posted shows a 555 running at 1.5 volts. I had no idea of this.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MileHigh on December 03, 2013, 01:18:15 AM

Bill:

I agree that the project will be a challenge. Perhaps you could get others involved. It's definitely doable with the people around here. I honestly don't think I will have the time to follow and contribute that much. Consider me the "hardware architect" and take it from there. That's supposed to be part of the fun also, to develop it as a group effort and create the schematic and define the timings and select the parts yourselves.

You might actually need more than 4.5 volts to power the 555 because it has to generate sufficient gate voltage for the MOSFET you end up using. The answer is in the spec sheet for the MOSFET. Of course the batteries will still last years.

Then of course you have complete freedom to choose your inductor and also to define the timing, as was discussed a few postings ago.

In the second revision you may be able to experiment with over-driving the LED for a very bright flash of light. The spec sheet may state something about an extra bright flashing mode and recommend the current level and the pulse length. I haven't read a modern power LED spec sheet so I am just speculating. This would be for a "beacon" function, just for fun.

MileHigh

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SeaMonkey on December 03, 2013, 02:02:05 PM

There are a number of low voltage (single cell)
LED Driver Chips available such as the ZETEX
ZXSC300 which have surprising capabilities.

Discussion here. (http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?4841-Zetex-ZXSC300-single-cell-LED-driver/page3&s=1b59e058180dcee696240d585e72ebd8)

Datasheet here. (http://www.diodes.com/datasheets/ZXSC300.pdf)

It does require an external transistor so
one of the other chips with integrated
switching transistor may be more convenient
to some experimenters.

Search "single cell led driver."

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 03, 2013, 08:57:59 PM

Quote from: MileHigh on December 03, 2013, 01:18:15 AM
Bill:

I agree that the project will be a challenge. Perhaps you could get others involved. It's definitely doable with the people around here. I honestly don't think I will have the time to follow and contribute that much. Consider me the "hardware architect" and take it from there. That's supposed to be part of the fun also, to develop it as a group effort and create the schematic and define the timings and select the parts yourselves.

You might actually need more than 4.5 volts to power the 555 because it has to generate sufficient gate voltage for the MOSFET you end up using. The answer is in the spec sheet for the MOSFET. Of course the batteries will still last years.

Then of course you have complete freedom to choose your inductor and also to define the timing, as was discussed a few postings ago.

In the second revision you may be able to experiment with over-driving the LED for a very bright flash of light. The spec sheet may state something about an extra bright flashing mode and recommend the current level and the pulse length. I haven't read a modern power LED spec sheet so I am just speculating. This would be for a "beacon" function, just for fun.

MileHigh

MH:

Well, I was hoping for at least a crude schematic. I would be lost without one. I know there are others here that will do this and, hopefully, they will jump on board. You see, I thought I was following your idea but, I am not sure why we need an external transistor, mosfet? There are many on that 555, are they not isolated for our use? (showing my ignorance here) Is there a low voltage 555 that is separated that we could use? I was hoping to see where the 555 pinouts and the mosfet leads would be connected. I have no idea how to do this. I suppose I am smart enough to learn, which is, afterall, part of the fun but, it may be beyond me.

I still love your idea though, and maybe this will force me to learn all about 555's and mosfets. It will be a while before I can buy some of those in your pdf. Money is tight this month so I have some time to study. I still think this could be a breakthrough in the JT experiments we have seen here. I am still dedicated to giving it my best efforts.

Bill

@Seamonkey:

Thanks for the links. It was funny that today, an electronics guy where I work told me to go to the same forum. Interesting.

Thanks,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MileHigh on December 04, 2013, 12:49:01 PM

Bill:

You need an external transistor or MOSFET to do the power switching to drive the LEDs. The 555 can't do that, it's just a timing device. All that you need is the cheapest CMOS 555 so they should be cheap. You don't need a fancy low-voltage 555.

I can't remember if you have a scope, but ideally you would have one for this project. You can simply Google 555 circuits and pick one. But I realize doing the whole thing is outside of your comfort zone.

It would be a nice simple (relatively) Arduino project also, and for sure there has to be software already written that you could hijack for this project. There are also ways to make some micros, probably including models in the Arduino family, to run at ultra low power. So the whole timing setup could be done by a micro and probably run at about the same nearly insignificant power level.

Sorry I can't be directly involved if it were to happen but it's not the time for me and it's also a big commitment.

MileHigh

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MileHigh on December 04, 2013, 01:18:43 PM

Bill:

Necessity is the mother of invention so I dreamed up a great consolation prize for your consideration.

I can suggest a simplified version of the project that you could do and it gives you a bootstrap or launching pad for doing the real project. Just get an Arduino board, I think they are about 20 bucks? Find the software. Search on something like, "Arduino software oscillator" or "Arduino PWM oscillator" or "Making the Arduino programmable I/O into a square wave generator." (There might be hundreds of them out there.) The Arduino board will have a few input-output bits for driving external logic. So the software will make one of those I/O bits in to an output bit and turn it into a square wave output where you can control the frequency and duty cycle.

So you connect that output signal to the base resistor of your transistor. The external battery ground is connected to the ground pin for the digital output. Then you just do the usual circuit: battery -> coil -> transistor collector. And coil -> LED -> ground.

Then you are ready to roll. You can use all of your existing coils and transistors. But you have the freedom to try any of your coils or any battery voltage, and the Arduino program allows you to dial up any frequency and any duty cycle for the energizing of the coil. It's basically a quick and easy test bed setup.

Note of course the "test bed" is a very short step away from an actual usable project. You just flash the Arduino board with the program and give it it's own button cell or cells. Then connect up the "power train" and you are done. Some of those Arduino boards are the size of a USB key. So the USB key and the two button cells could be tucked away inside a project box and you add the power train with the replaceable AA cell, the coil, the transistor and LEDs and you are done.

MileHigh

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MileHigh on December 04, 2013, 01:56:09 PM

Bill:

I can't resist finishing off the software for the simple design. The Arduino board will have those programmable input-output bits. Some of them are used as inputs, and they are used for reading the momentary push buttons you see on some Arduino boards. Also, almost certainly you can program one of those pins to make the Arduino go to sleep. Then the next time you push it the Arduino wakes up. When the board is "asleep" it consumes almost no power. So you don't even need a physical on-off switch, the batteries are always powering the board but the board consumes no power when it is asleep.

So you can imagine this: Your JT-style LED light sitting on top of some sort of project box. Perhaps the holder for the single AA battery is conveniently accessible and open and flush with the top surface of the box. And on the front of the box there is a little tiny panel-mount momentary push-button switch. It cycles though off -> low -> medium -> high -> off. All very simple and elegant.

Wouldn't that be nice? Suppose the two button cells powering the Arduino board last a year. That's not too bad. Who knows they might last a lot longer than that. You can use a bigger battery to power the Arduino board if you want.

MileHigh

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Farmhand on December 06, 2013, 12:10:01 AM

The way I see it a circuit that is provided a signal from a microprocessor to switch the primary, without any feedback for "auto resonance" is not a joule thief. I might be wrong. But to me it would just be a switched transformer. More akin to a solid state Tesla coil if air cored.

I have used different IC's and micros to provide the signal to switch small Tesla coils, they are no Joule thieves. To get resonance the frequency must be varied slightly at times and a load means it or the L/C needs to be changed to keep resonance. For without the resonance the power is much less. Personally I would have thought a mosfet would be the best switch for such a setup.

It would go like this, Microprocessor - mosfet driver - mosfet as a low side switch.

Cheers

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MileHigh on December 06, 2013, 03:21:29 AM

Farmhand:

It's still arguably a Joule Thief in the sense that it's still sucking the maximum amount of juice out of the main battery. So in that sense it's still "stealing" Joules so in namesake it still has the "soul" of a Joule Thief. The system performs the same type of function as a standard Joule Thief.

We had this discussion about resonance and Joule Thieves with TK several months ago. The standard Joule Thief has an "operating frequency." That's distinct and different from resonance. The output power is determined by how long the main coil is energized and the frequency of the pulse train that switches on the transistor and energizes the inductor.

It may sound like resonance but it isn't. Resonance typically implies some kind of LC oscillator or some sort of tank oscillation where the energy goes back and forth between an L and a C. In a JT timing is determined more by a resistance and an inductance interacting. In some ways the oscillating of the JT is similar to how a 555's frequency is determined by your choice of R and C for the timing components.

Perhaps another way of stating it is to say that resonance implies some frequency but an operating frequency does not necessarily imply some form of resonance.

Yes, you can say that they oscillator itself inside the Joule Thief is "resonating" in a generic or lay person's sense, but when you discuss it using technical terms it would be inappropriate to say that it is in resonance. Operating frequency is the best term that I can think up. Note there is no "resonant spot" to hit for the main coil of the JT to get the maximum power output. The power output will be a function of the operating frequency and the transistor on time alone.

MileHigh

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Farmhand on December 06, 2013, 03:52:19 AM

Well I know from experience that when I excite a transformer with a pulse train signal and switch it with a mosfet, I get the most power out when the secondary is tuned to resonance, just because most joule thieves might not work at resonance or a harmonic doesn't mean they would not work better if they were made to do that.

True a Joule thief is a self oscillating circuit not needing to be in resonance.

But I see the self oscillating feature as a basic part of what makes a joule thief a joule thief.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joule_thief

First line on the Wiki.

QuoteA joule thief is a minimalist self-oscillating voltage booster that is small, low-cost, and easy-to-build; typically used for driving light loads.

The difference between the radiative and receiver effects between an out of resonance and in resonance small Tesla type transformer/coil is great. With no resonance the fluro held in the hand won't light so well, the voltage at the terminal is much less and when a direct load is placed on the terminal eg. the fluro is touched to the terminal the transformer goes out of tune, if the L/C is adjusted or the frequency adjusted to keep resonance the voltage and power peaks.

Just going near the coil will affect it's tune a bit but actually touching a fluro to the top terminal changes it a lot, and with a manual frequency pulse width adjustment it must be tuned for the load, or tuned to excite a receiver with load, or tuned to just oscillate at resonance with no real load so maximum radiations are forced.

Just because a circuit can use it's battery right down doesn't qualify it as a joule thief to me.

Cheers

P.S. This Armstrong oscillator variant kinda shows that if I touch to the secondary the fluro it lights better than if I touch it to the top terminal because it affects the L/C less.
Towards the end of the video I show some cool patterns in the fluro, which is not new to me I've made a lot better cool patterns in other video's.

It's not a joule thief because it requires over 10 volts to run but it does self oscillate.

So can anyone explain why there are dark and light bands in the fluro ? And why they can move from either end to the middle or from either end to the other end ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xz_pSsZtUZo

These below are oscillator driven, not self oscillating.

This video shows the power of resonance, at the receiver transformer. Even though the power is low the difference between resonance and no resonance is great. Right at the end of this video clip you can see the neon and hear the "escaping gas" sound it makes when brought close to the transmitter terminal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJgHWYTk6_g

Another different freaky fluro pattern
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gr9JX_sIP2I

My self, I prefer oscillator driven (at full frequency, not a harmonic) and manually adjusting the LC and frequency-pulse width ect. Just my preference. Which is pretty much what your circuit would do wouldn't it.

I have thought about using feedback to a micro, but only so much time to spend.

..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SeaMonkey on December 07, 2013, 12:32:33 AM

Joule Thief for the advanced student (http://quantsuff.com/LED2.htm) who
demands the most from the least.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: wings on December 08, 2013, 03:37:11 PM

source for JT boiled potato battery

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36hzlFVgVa8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36hzlFVgVa8)

http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/ideas/2013/12/a-potato-battery-can-light-up-a-room-for-over-a-month/?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=socialmedia&utm_campaign=12032013&utm_content=innovationspotato

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 08, 2013, 04:15:05 PM

Quote from: SeaMonkey on December 07, 2013, 12:32:33 AM
Joule Thief for the advanced student (http://quantsuff.com/LED2.htm) who
demands the most from the least.

Wow! Thanks, that is a great resource of a lot of experimentation.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 08, 2013, 04:21:56 PM

Quote from: wings on December 08, 2013, 03:37:11 PM
source for JT boiled potato battery

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36hzlFVgVa8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36hzlFVgVa8)

http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/ideas/2013/12/a-potato-battery-can-light-up-a-room-for-over-a-month/?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=socialmedia&utm_campaign=12032013&utm_content=innovationspotato (http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/ideas/2013/12/a-potato-battery-can-light-up-a-room-for-over-a-month/?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=socialmedia&utm_campaign=12032013&utm_content=innovationspotato)

Interesting that boiling the potato helps the power output. Excellent research. I saw no mention of any JT circuit so, if they make enough juice to light that one led, then the addition of a JT circuit could enable them to light hundreds from the same power input. Maybe they will figure this out?

Thanks,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: xee2 on December 09, 2013, 11:02:38 PM

Quote from: wings on December 08, 2013, 03:37:11 PM
source for JT boiled potato battery

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36hzlFVgVa8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36hzlFVgVa8)

http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/ideas/2013/12/a-potato-battery-can-light-up-a-room-for-over-a-month/?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=socialmedia&utm_campaign=12032013&utm_content=innovationspotato (http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/ideas/2013/12/a-potato-battery-can-light-up-a-room-for-over-a-month/?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=socialmedia&utm_campaign=12032013&utm_content=innovationspotato)

These guys may be at a university, but they don't know science. The energy comes from the copper and zinc, not from the potato. The potato could be replaced with salt water. It is the copper and zinc that need to be replaced, so having cheap potatoes does not make for a cheap battery.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Lakes on December 10, 2013, 05:23:22 AM

Now if they could make a battery without the metal electrodes... :)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Farmhand on December 10, 2013, 09:13:09 PM

Xee is of course correct.

Galvanic cell
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_cell

..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on December 25, 2013, 09:40:48 PM

Hi all,
electricme! here ;D

Still around, have been busy, just popped in to say

Merry Christmas to all those who still remember me from years gone by for 2013

and all the best for the New Year

Jim from the land down under ;)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on December 26, 2013, 06:32:50 AM

Quote from: electricme on December 25, 2013, 09:40:48 PM
Hi all,
electricme! here ;D

Still around, have been busy, just popped in to say

Merry Christmas to all those who still remember me from years gone by for 2013

and all the best for the New Year

Jim from the land down under ;)

Hi Jim, still here also...Wish you all the very best. Working on other projects at the moment but I keep on eye on what's going on here. Happy New Year to all from Crow, here in the UK

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 27, 2013, 09:50:50 PM

Quote from: electricme on December 25, 2013, 09:40:48 PM
Hi all,
electricme! here ;D

Still around, have been busy, just popped in to say

Merry Christmas to all those who still remember me from years gone by for 2013

and all the best for the New Year

Jim from the land down under ;)

Jim:

It is great to see your post here. Ahhh, it is almost like the old days again. The old JT circuit has not yet shown everything that it can do. I do hope that you will one day soon be able to post here with your experiments and research. We need minds like yours.

We should organize a JT topic reunion, ha ha. That would be great to have everyone back here again.

Merry Christmas to you and a Happy New Year as well.

Bill

PS Do you wind your toroids in reverse direction down there? Ha ha.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on December 27, 2013, 11:12:02 PM

@ Bill,
Do I wind the torroids in the reverse, you bet, with my eyes closed ;D using my big and little toes on both feet ;) gosh that's hard work LOL. (just pulling your chains, or having a lend of you, joshing)

I'm really snowed under with house rebuilding, got 80% done.

Thanks for the EM mate and all the best to everyone here for the New Year.

Jim.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: wings on January 23, 2014, 06:00:26 AM

Joule Thief Shorted

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NFowJ-SqEi8

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 09, 2014, 03:04:08 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGmkP2FC3n8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGmkP2FC3n8)

This is a quick video of a resistance substitution box kit that I built a few weekends ago. It is a really well designed kit and cost only $15.00 (US) free shipping, from Amazon.

I added the banana plugs to the front and I also added a 1 K linear taper VR to the rear with its own banana plugs.

This is very useful when tuning jt circuits.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: electricme on February 09, 2014, 03:49:33 PM

@Bill,
Well done mate, always great to add another bit of testing kit to the electronic tools kit box. :D

Has anyone hooked a small solar cell to a JT yet, probably, I have been away from here far too long now.

On the 3 watt resistors, when the joule thief gets some higher output grunt, the 1/4 watt resistors will smoke, that's when you use the 3 watters, when "they" smoke go to the 5 watters, they can handle a lot more heat.

In the mean time stick with the 1/4 watters.

Has anyone tried paralling up the joule thiefs yet? I mean at least 10?
Parallel = higher output power
Use a single JT as the primary to keep all the others in sync so all the outputs don't fight against each other?

Jim.

To all it's hot here..... over night temp was 27C or 80F been freezing up in your neck of the woods!

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on February 10, 2014, 01:39:52 PM

@ Bill, Nice job and a very useful bit of kit. Do you have a variable power supply? if not another possible project for you mate. Merv

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on February 10, 2014, 01:58:26 PM

Quote from: electricme on February 09, 2014, 03:49:33 PM

Jim.

To all it's hot here..... over night temp was 27C or 80F been freezing up in your neck of the woods!

Hi Jim... here in the UK we have had a prolonged wet spell causing wide spread floods and cold weather in many regions with several towns and villages virtually cut off by swollen rivers. The forecast is unchanged with more heavy rain and strong winds yet to come. We live on higher ground so very lucky compared with thousands of flooded homes and businesses elsewhere around the country. ROLL ON SUMMER!!
Regards Merv.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 10, 2014, 09:41:34 PM

Quote from: electricme on February 09, 2014, 03:49:33 PM
@Bill,
Well done mate, always great to add another bit of testing kit to the electronic tools kit box. :D

Has anyone hooked a small solar cell to a JT yet, probably, I have been away from here far too long now.

On the 3 watt resistors, when the joule thief gets some higher output grunt, the 1/4 watt resistors will smoke, that's when you use the 3 watters, when "they" smoke go to the 5 watters, they can handle a lot more heat.

In the mean time stick with the 1/4 watters.

Has anyone tried paralling up the joule thiefs yet? I mean at least 10?
Parallel = higher output power
Use a single JT as the primary to keep all the others in sync so all the outputs don't fight against each other?

Jim.

To all it's hot here..... over night temp was 27C or 80F been freezing up in your neck of the woods!

Jim:

Great to see you here. Thanks for the kind words. I made a video about a month ago where I hooked 2 jt flash circuits in parallel and the 60 watt equiv. led bulb was a lot brighter. I made a custom test bed for these experiments and then added another 2 into the circuit. When switching on the 3rd in the circuit there was no additional increase and the same with adding the 4th. That is as far as I have gotten. I really want to add at least two in series but that gets tricky with these flash circuits.

It has been really, really cold here. (and I work outside!!) One day recently, we were down to -18F with the wind chill.

Take care,

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 10, 2014, 09:43:28 PM

Merv:

Thank you. Yes, I bought a decent power supply last year. It is very handy to have around when testing these circuits.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 22, 2014, 05:24:44 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Fo99iQndW0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Fo99iQndW0)

This is my Electronic Scarecrow I made from a solar garden light JT circuit. I added two red leds and a CD. I made it for my friend who has chickens. It is supposed to keep the nocturnal predators at bay by making them think there is a larger predator in the area. (You can buy expensive commercial models)

You hang it from a tree and it charges by day, and runs all night long. Just a simple, hopefully useful (Otherwise I won't get any more free eggs) and cheap project.

Bill

***EDITED TO ADD PHOTOS*** (Now that we can do that again.)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 02, 2014, 01:57:18 PM

http://www.instructables.com/id/Resistor-Color-Wheel/ (http://www.instructables.com/id/Resistor-Color-Wheel/)

I made this neat little resistor color wheel designed by a fellow named Robives on Instructables. The PDF files are at the above link. I increased the size by 10% and used a 10-32 screw and nut for the axle and added a drop of superglue to the threads once I adjusted the drag. I also added a small neo to the back so it can hang on my wire holder bracket where it will be very handy.

I found this to be a really nice, fast, and simple way to translate the resistor color codes.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on March 03, 2014, 12:05:49 AM

Thumbs way up! Useful items all and very clever too.

I put one of your flashcameraboards and a gutted CFL tube into a plastic mayo jar.... it's a PirateRight! er, PilotLite....er... Pirate Light! A little red theaterlighting gel wrapped around inside and it's a very nice dark-adaptation saving nightlight for the observa-yurt.

Double thumbs up for the Simpson multimeter, a real classic and very reliable.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 03, 2014, 12:51:18 AM

Quote from: TinselKoala on March 03, 2014, 12:05:49 AM
Thumbs way up! Useful items all and very clever too.

I put one of your flashcameraboards and a gutted CFL tube into a plastic mayo jar.... it's a PirateRight! er, PilotLite....er... Pirate Light! A little red theaterlighting gel wrapped around inside and it's a very nice dark-adaptation saving nightlight for the observa-yurt.

Double thumbs up for the Simpson multimeter, a real classic and very reliable.

Thank you. Yes, the gel is a good idea. I did that when I modified my friends Coleman lantern. (Using the flash circuit and Cree bulb) I used an inverted peanut butter jar (plastic) with the gel on the outside so he could have red light, or unscrew the jar and have white light.

Actually, that is a 1955 Triplett Model 630 meter that used to belong to my Dad. I restored it and did a battery hack to make the 30 volt bat that you can no longer get. Video here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QR5yf4jMNPM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QR5yf4jMNPM)

You should post a video on your flash circuit light. Those surplus flash circuits are still available...man, they must have made millions of those things.

Thanks for the nice comments.

Bill

PS: Added photo of the meter. Believe it or not, those are the original test leads. A little WD-40 made them look new. I did have to replace the probes as one was missing but, I had another meter with similar probes so I soldered them on.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on March 03, 2014, 09:44:28 PM

Ah, Triplett. I have a Simpson (somewhere) that is practically identical, same HV input locations and all but now that I see the full view I can tell that the Triplett is not quite as "boxy" as the Simpson. The meter faces are nearly identical too. Google Images has some great pix of both types.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 03, 2014, 10:15:57 PM

I actually thought my Dad had a Simpson, and was surprised to find out it was a Triplett. I asked a friend of mine the other day if he thought that a meter he bought this year would still be working 59 years later, and he said ....no.

I had a lot of fun making it work again and I love the idea of using something that is older than I am. (Not by much)

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on March 03, 2014, 10:27:05 PM

I have a Fluke 83 DMM that I bought in 1983, I think. I use it every day, and I'll bet it will outlive me. The display has one of those weird rubber-metal contact strips, and every once in a while I have to clean it and re-seat it so the display segments will all work well, but other than that it still does great. It uses these big cartridge fuses, and those are actually still available too. My local supplier is the regional Fluke dealer, too, and he's got all the Fluke goodies in stock. Wanna pay ten dollars for an alligator clip? If it works...it's a Fluke.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 03, 2014, 10:49:37 PM

Does your Simpson utilize that funky 30 volt battery that is no longer available? (That is why I had to do the battery hack in the video) If so, what was your workaround for that? (Knowing you, you probably have spares stashed away somewhere, ha ha)

I have an old Omega DMM (Model 881C) from around 1988 or so. Geeze, I better open that one up and check the battery condition, it might be a mess in there as I have not used it for a very long time.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: SeaMonkey on March 04, 2014, 12:37:41 AM

Pirate88179,

Do you have any idea what the current draw from
the 30 Volt battery might be?

If it is only a few milliAmperes it would be possible
to make a DC to DC Boost circuit to transform a
low two cell voltage to the needed 30 Volts with
pretty good regulation.

Do you remember the TI Scientific Calculators
from the '80s (TI-30 (http://www.datamath.org/Sci/MAJESTIC/TI-30.htm)) which were powered by either
a 9 Volt battery or the rechargeable 2-cell
NiCd boost replacement (http://www.datamath.org/BP_List.htm#RK2)?

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 04, 2014, 12:48:06 AM

Quote from: SeaMonkey on March 04, 2014, 12:37:41 AM
Pirate88179,

Do you have any idea what the current draw from
the 30 Volt battery might be?

If it is only a few milliAmperes it would be possible
to make a DC to DC Boost circuit to transform a
low two cell voltage to the needed 30 Volts with
pretty good regulation.

Do you remember the TI Scientific Calculators
from the '80s (TI-30 (http://www.vintagecalculators.com/html/texas_instruments_ti-30.html)) which were powered by either
a 9 Volt battery or the rechargeable 2-cell
NiCd boost replacement?

No, I don't know what the current draw is, but, it can't be too much. The original battery inside was just a stack of oval hearing aid type batteries, like ten of them to get the 30 volts. I solved this by using 3 nine volt batteries in series as I saw them do on an old radio restoration site. (Some old radios used these batteries also)

I don't recall those calculators but, if I saw one, I would bet it would ring a bell. Your idea is a good one but the 9 volt batteries in series (outputting 28+ volts) works fine, at least in this application.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on March 04, 2014, 05:38:35 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on March 04, 2014, 12:48:06 AM
No, I don't know what the current draw is, but, it can't be too much. The original battery inside was just a stack of oval hearing aid type batteries, like ten of them to get the 30 volts. I solved this by using 3 nine volt batteries in series as I saw them do on an old radio restoration site. (Some old radios used these batteries also)

I don't recall those calculators but, if I saw one, I would bet it would ring a bell. Your idea is a good one but the 9 volt batteries in series (outputting 28+ volts) works fine, at least in this application.

Bill

There you go Bill, yet another project for the JT circuit maybe for you!! Wind a small coil rectified DC output with cap, voltage divider to achieve target voltage. Clamp the voltage with a zener diode, etc... job done.
Worth a try maybe when you've got five.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Jeg on April 14, 2014, 09:08:51 AM

Hi guys

Nice thread but huge to search for what i need. ???
I'd like to ask if anybody has a JT circuit driving an ignition coil if it is possible from 1.5V Even higher supply voltage is accepted. It's time to play with this small gadget!!! :)

Thanks
Jeg

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on April 14, 2014, 02:38:20 PM

Hi Jeg, just give it a try... the only problem I can see if you need to reverse the primary windings if it doesn't self oscillate! You only have three connections on these coils, the primary and secondaries are common connections. Also beware of the high secondary voltages while experimenting. Otherwise drive it with a 555 timer IC, also these coils use an iron core so frequencies are much lower.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 19, 2014, 08:45:06 PM

I took apart another garden solar light and found this board. As you can see (hopefully) it only has an inductor on one side of the board and that black blob covering the "mystery chip" on the reverse. I removed it from the solar cell and the photo diode and tested the amp draw while lighting the straw hat LED very brightly. It was only drawing 8 mA's while being powered by my power supply at 1.2 volts. (I used a meter in series and not the display on my supply)

While researching this online I found a few guys that have this type of board with a chip not covered by the epoxy and they said it had 4 leads on it and no markings. Another fellow said that the chip does the switching and the resistance as well. This will light an LED brightly down to .5 volts and I want to know what it is so I can make my own boards and vary the resistance to control the lighting and mA draw.

Does anyone here know anything about this mystery chip and what it might be? I have not put it on the scope yet but, the chip and the inductor and the built in resistor work as a JT in a very small and compact package.

Any help here would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Bill

PS Every board I have like this labels that inductor as R1 so, until someone on here pointed out that it was indeed an inductor, I always thought it was a resistor. I am always learning something from you guys.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on May 19, 2014, 09:08:13 PM

I dunno about the specific black blobs but I do know about two, four-terminal devices that are used in garden lights.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 19, 2014, 09:17:17 PM

TK:

Thanks a lot. I appreciate the reply. Can we get these chips on the market anywhere or are they just a custom, in house item? I didn't see any resistors in those circuit diagrams so I am guessing they are just like mine with the resistance "built in" to the chip somewhere.

Some of my earlier lights that I took apart (which looked identical to the one I took apart for the photos) had an external resistor on the board. None of my boards have a schottky diode though. I realize that there are many variants of this type of circuit.

I am just impressed as this is the most simple circuit I have ever seen that is an actual JT and it works very well. If I could find some similar chips maybe we can make it better by experimenting with the inductors?

Bill

***EDIT*** I just found this: http://www.flytron.com/electronic-parts/240-ana608-solar-charge-and-led-controller.html (http://www.flytron.com/electronic-parts/240-ana608-solar-charge-and-led-controller.html)

The ANA608 is available. I will try to order some in the next few weeks. Thanks again.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: goku_092966 on May 30, 2014, 01:02:47 AM

or you could try QX5252

from simple JT circuit on my night lights to this cheap solar garden light circuits...

credit goes to MrFreddiew1 who posted improvement regarding this circuit on Youtube.

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Farmhand on June 01, 2014, 03:19:11 AM

Anyone got any info on a garden light IC 52521H with 1008 under it, 4 pins ?
I think I can read the board traces so I'll try to make a drawing.

..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 01, 2014, 07:58:09 AM

http://www.led-ics.com/pddetaildate/product/detail/20110321_10775860_52521H.html (http://www.led-ics.com/pddetaildate/product/detail/20110321_10775860_52521H.html)

I found this site and schematic. You might be able to translate this page. This schematic is similar to the ones TK posted elsewhere. It appears this chip only works down to .9v. Some of the other chips we have looked at go down to .6 which to me, is more useful.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 01, 2014, 08:35:53 AM

This is the smallest JT I have made to date. I cheated and used a modified version of the garden light circuit board. You can see another little board in the photos. These are the ones with the gray blob over the chip. All of the chips I have looked at would not fit under that blob so possibly it is an smd version?

This is a very bright little light and will light up down to .6 volts. It draws less than 8 mA's when fully illuminated.

The case for the light is made from a 35mm film container lid and the base is made from a cut down Airborne (anti-cold herbal remedy) container. It is the smallest package I could readily make but, there is a lot of room inside so it could be place in an even smaller package.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 01, 2014, 10:18:25 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6XVcqOs-Cg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6XVcqOs-Cg)

Here is a short video of my Micro Joule Thief Light.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Farmhand on June 01, 2014, 11:22:56 AM

Cool stuff, your right the 52521H IC isn't much use for extended run times or for what I want
which is a more efficient circuit to run from a galvanic battery.

The setup in the picture below gives only 0.5 volts under load with about 1 to 2 mA, but I adjusted
the base resistance so that it runs the JT in burst mode powering two 5 mm LED's, meaning it
oscillates at 60 kHz until the voltage drops enough to pause the oscillations very briefly, that makes
the LED's brighter but flashing, another cell or a bit more current and it would run continuous.

It can run at 0.38 volts and more current. The cell has galvanized steel and
carbon arc gouging electrodes (copper coated with an inch of exposed carbon in the ground).

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 01, 2014, 11:34:28 AM

Quote from: Farmhand on June 01, 2014, 11:22:56 AM
Cool stuff, your right the 52521H IC isn't much use for extended run times or for what I want
which is a more efficient circuit to run from a galvanic battery.

The setup in the picture below gives only 0.5 volts under load with about 1 to 2 mA, but I adjusted
the base resistance so that it runs the JT in burst mode powering two 5 mm LED's, meaning it
oscillates at 60 kHz until the voltage drops enough to pause the oscillations very briefly, that makes the LED's brighter but flashing another cell or a bit more current and it would run continuous.

It can run at 0.38 volts and more current. The cell has galvanized steel and
carbon arc gouging electrodes (copper coated with an inch of exposed carbon in the ground).

Nice set-up. Try using magnesium for the - electrodes and you should be able to get about 2.00 volts out of it. That's about what I get, not counting those high spikes which will charge my 2.7 volt supercap fully. I have a video on youtube running 200 leds off of my set-up and, I can also run a Bedini motor from it. Get the largest block of magnesium you can and also, I would strip the copper off of the carbon rods as well. Place the carbon rods on the north/south meridian to the north, and the magnesium to the south on the same line. Not magnetic north/south, although, depending upon where you are these can be close.

I also have a cool video showing really high spikes all over the place on my scope. It is these spikes that I assume are charging up my supercap (650 F) to 2.7 volts when I can only measure about 2 volts with my DMM. I have been running this system for a long time now...well, actually right now it is not hooked up but maybe I should revisit this and explore it further?

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on June 01, 2014, 03:16:21 PM

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Farmhand on June 02, 2014, 03:26:37 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 01, 2014, 11:34:28 AM
Nice set-up. Try using magnesium for the - electrodes and you should be able to get about 2.00 volts out of it. That's about what I get, not counting those high spikes which will charge my 2.7 volt supercap fully. I have a video on youtube running 200 leds off of my set-up and, I can also run a Bedini motor from it. Get the largest block of magnesium you can and also, I would strip the copper off of the carbon rods as well. Place the carbon rods on the north/south meridian to the north, and the magnesium to the south on the same line. Not magnetic north/south, although, depending upon where you are these can be close.

I also have a cool video showing really high spikes all over the place on my scope. It is these spikes that I assume are charging up my supercap (650 F) to 2.7 volts when I can only measure about 2 volts with my DMM. I have been running this system for a long time now...well, actually right now it is not hooked up but maybe I should revisit this and explore it further?

Bill

Sounds good, I am kinda interested to see if the copper is consumed or whatever same with the galvanized coating on the steel. I think I'll just leave it run blinky JT for some weeks and take a look at the plates, the carbon gouging rods have a rectangular cross section (not round ones) not sure how strong they wold be without the copper, probably ok and carbon is better.

I might try the setup I describe in the Stubblefield thread, I think a setup like that would produce a lot more current from the battery and it's all compact. And with a step up secondary it could be an interesting device. I'll need to use a "single coil two transistor type oscillator" if I can't get enough primary DC voltage for an IC or micro controller to switch a logic level mosfet.

I guess I'll scratch a drawing for the other thread, I get funny idea's when I draw stuff. ;D

..
Tinsel I'm tricked and intrigued, what did you show us ?
..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on June 02, 2014, 11:29:26 AM

One is the tiny clothespin JT running on the smallest battery I could find in the house, in the jaws of the clothespin. The other is a special purpose JT using a 2n3055 and a large coil set, showing lighting up a filament light bulb and a NE-2 neon... in series ... on under 3V input. (The neon is bridged by a HV rectifier diode, probably 1n4007 iirc)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Farmhand on June 06, 2014, 12:35:18 AM

Nice, I've taken the leap to get buy some super capacitors, I ordered 10 x 5.5 volt - 0.22 Farad and 2 x 2.7 volts - 50 Farads.

50 Farads should run an efficient LED driver for some time.
..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Farmhand on June 07, 2014, 10:54:29 AM

I noticed some discussion about single coil set ups and so I made a "Stingo" circuit with an added 1 nF capacitor across the diode in series with the PNP base.

Here's some results. And the circuit, it runs from 1.25 volts so far and can run in two modes high power and low power, see shots.

Any tips on improving the circuit are welcome, (better diodes I know), using just one coil can be advantageous I think. Sorry for beig a bit off topic.

Oh with 2.6 volts input it can hold 34 volts output across 10 x 5mm LED's in series with a 1000 uF capacitor across them. :)

..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 07, 2014, 10:59:33 AM

Quote from: Farmhand on June 06, 2014, 12:35:18 AM
Nice, I've taken the leap to get buy some super capacitors, I ordered 10 x 5.5 volt - 0.22 Farad and 2 x 2.7 volts - 50 Farads.

50 Farads should run an efficient LED driver for some time.
..

I missed out when those 3,000 Farad supercaps were on the surplus market for like $15 each. Now they are $50-$100. 650F is the largest cap I have at this time but, I keep watching the surplus market just in case.

50 farads is a good size cap to experiment with, especially using very low draw circuits.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Vortex1 on June 07, 2014, 04:52:41 PM

Farmhand:

I've been optimizing on the bench and in simulations a similar circuit that I posted here: http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasersaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg402950/#msg402950 (http://www.overunity.com/14591/lasersaber-strikes-again-a-joule-thief-king/msg402950/#msg402950)

But that was the elementary schematic, I have made many improvements that lower power drain etc.

This circuit has a number of advantages over a blocking oscillator, one of which is better control of inductor current and switch off point.

The disadvantage is base switching current for the NPN does not come from the current step up feature of a well designed single transistor blocking oscillator's coupled inductor, rather it comes directly from the supply, but there are many interesting circuit mods in the two transistor circuit to minimize this current.

This two transistor topology can be arranged to provide a very wide pulse repetition rate, making brightness control over a wide range easy.

I prefer this single inductor two transistor circuit topology over blocking oscillator types for most applications but each has it's place, depends on what you want to do.

Regards, Vortex1 (ION)

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: Farmhand on June 07, 2014, 08:20:03 PM

Yep I seen your circuit and that's why I decided to try some things.

It seems for running down to lower input voltages the coil has a lot to do with helping, I found a coil with more self inductance will work for much better output at lower input voltages, although the frequency is lower, I'm using the full resistance in series with the PNP base. It's running down to 0.8 volts and lighting one led with 1.33 volts RMS and 4.32 volts max at 8.5 kHz.

Coil is a 3 mH or so on ferrite.

In the low power mode with more base resistance it can light one LED real bright with 1.2 volts and uses a lot less power but the light gets low when at 0.8 volts.

Still, it can boost a very old leaky 200 uF capacitor to 6 volts from 0.8 volts input, in a second or two which might be useful as well. :)

..

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: MarkE on June 07, 2014, 08:51:20 PM

Quote from: Farmhand on June 07, 2014, 08:20:03 PM
Yep I seen your circuit and that's why I decided to try some things.

It seems for running down to lower input voltages the coil has a lot to do with helping, I found a coil with more self inductance will work for much better output at lower input voltages, although the frequency is lower, I'm using the full resistance in series with the PNP base. It's running down to 0.8 volts and lighting one led with 1.33 volts RMS and 4.32 volts max at 8.5 kHz.

Coil is a 3 mH or so on ferrite.

In the low power mode with more base resistance it can light one LED real bright with 1.2 volts and uses a lot less power but the light gets low when at 0.8 volts.

Still, it can boost a very old leaky 200 uF capacitor to 6 volts from 0.8 volts input, in a second or two which might be useful as well. :)

..

That's probably because each time that the circuit switches it suffers switching losses.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 07, 2014, 09:16:29 PM

Does anyone know if I can put two 47 uH axial inductors (like the ones in a solar garden light) together in series or parallel to get a 94 uH inductor?

Thanks,

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on June 07, 2014, 09:37:35 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 07, 2014, 09:16:29 PM
Does anyone know if I can put two 47 uH axial inductors (like the ones in a solar garden light) together in series or parallel to get a 94 uH inductor?

Thanks,

Bill

Yes, series.
Like resistors: inductors in series simply add. Inductors in parallel do the inverse thing: L_final = 1/(1/L₁ + 1/L₂ + ....)

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 07, 2014, 09:55:54 PM

Quote from: TinselKoala on June 07, 2014, 09:37:35 PM
Yes, series.
Like resistors: inductors in series simply add. Inductors in parallel do the inverse thing: L_final = 1/(1/L₁ + 1/L₂ + ....)

Thanks TK.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Farmhand on June 07, 2014, 11:10:56 PM

Yeah less switching less switching losses, diodes also rob us at low voltages. I've ordered some some small Schottky diodes 1N5819's.

I'll look into booster IC's as well.

I'm thinking of trying to set up this oscillator as a tiny boost converter and use a 1 Meg pot to form a voltage divider with the 100k resistor, by applying a positive voltage from the output cap charged by the diode output through the (adjusted) 1 Meg pot to the junction of the diode anode and the 100 k resistor, then when the cap reaches the desired voltage it should stop the oscillator, I think.

This would allow a voltage of about 4 to 5 volts for logic circuitry to run from, preventing over voltage possibility. We could charge 0.22 Farads to 4.3 volts and have 2 joules to dump into a battery or load every so often.

Or a higher voltage for other things even.

If we use the circuit to switch a transformer to charge a cap and reference the cap 0v to circuit ground we can also use that method maybe.

..

P.S. It works but the divided voltage from the output needs to be applied to the PNP base directly.

Blue trace is output capacitor voltage, Yellow is the collector of the NPN.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Vortex1 on June 08, 2014, 10:01:03 AM

Switching losses from the two transistor regenerative switch can be minimized by :

a) adding some resistance between the collector and base of the pair (drive path)

or

b) configure the pnp as a current source, limiting turn on current that is pure loss

and with high gain transistors, (super beta) this loss can be further minimized.

I was wondering what function you think the two 1N4148 diodes on the npn base to ground may perform.

A diode on the pnp base to V+ would definitely be a good idea.

Using a 10 meg pot on the base to ground of the pnp I get very wide range control from pulses in the order of a minimum of 1 sec PRR to as high as would give good brightness, but for safety, limiting to a few tens of kHz.

Nice thing about this circuit is it automatically adjusts duty cycle as voltage falls. The elementary circuit I posted worked down to about 0.75 volt.

Perhaps you could explain the expected function of your components in the feedback path.

I think overall this is a very worthy circuit that needs further development in a separate thread.

I am not at all averse to using an extra transistor or resistor here or there if it leads to improved overall performance. Transistors and resistors are inexpensive compared to coupled inductors.

I like the simplicity of the single off the shelf inductor.

Also I have played with a bit of magnetic bias of the inductor (with a small permanent magnet) Properly placed it allows tuning of the inductor properties to get a very linear current ramp both on inductor charge and discharge. This could also be done with a bias winding, but in either case, the bias eliminates the need for a gap at higher duty cycles.

Kind Regards
Vortex1 (ION)

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Dave45 on June 08, 2014, 11:54:50 AM

any advice on the gates

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Farmhand on June 08, 2014, 07:58:06 PM

Yes it's a good circuit, Wanna start the thread ?

The diodes between the npn base and ground are intended so that the npn base can go negative, although it seems to make no difference in this circuit. I don't use bipolar transistors much, mosfets usually work best for me for on/off switches, I've never experimented much with bipolar transistor circuits, except mainly for triggering a circuit or for driving or turning off mosfets.

The feedback circuit did work to stop the oscillations when the cap reached a given value but it also affected the oscillator frequency in odd ways, so that's out. I have another plan, but it would be a separate secondary circuit, lets say an (output control circuit)

It's good to keep part count low, but not if using another part means better efficiency, especially with very low voltages.

The circuit I posted works without the 1 nF capacitor across the diode at the npn collector and without the diodes from ground to npn base, and it works well, in that configuration it's the basic "Stingo" circuit that Sucahyo used at EF, I think he discovered it while experimenting. For low voltage use a better design I think is needed. Time to try something slightly different.

A simple darlington pair (npn) works to oscillate a coil too, in a way that connecting a wire from the Earth (stake) to the base of the pair starts it off, depending on input voltage. Getting the coil switch to turn off quicker will help me.

I want an efficient little oscillator to work from 1 volt or less and low current draw so as to harvest energy at low potential levels and boost it into high capacity at higher voltage, then store it for use in common batteries or just use it for night time lights.

I've got a removable core coil I can adjust from 800 uH air cored to over 4.5 mH big steel core and t measures 3.2 mH with a neat fitting iron powder core. So I can use it as a test coil.

I like the idea of being able to oscillate the primary of a regular transformer (scavenged) and use the secondary as output, but with the flyback clamped in some way so the load can be disconnected intermittently.

I was also wondering about making use of the low voltage output of a homo-polar machine or whatever they be called, but that would require some high current handling, an initial boosted voltage could provide the power for a micro controller and mosfet switching in that case.

Cheers

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Farmhand on June 09, 2014, 12:04:37 AM

Here is a web page that describes a 0.5 volt to 5-6volt booster circuit.

http://www.discovercircuits.com/H-Corner/05-6-con.htm

Quote from page.

QuoteIt turns out that TI's 74AUC family of parts can work down to about 0.45 volts. I tried one of their single schmitt trigger parts and found I was able to make on oscillator function nicely at 0.5 volts.

I was thinking of trying a CD4049 to see what it could operate at, I have some 74 parts but not many,

..

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on June 09, 2014, 01:44:11 AM

A 74, 74LS, etc 5V series TTL or 4000 series CMOS will not work.

The key to Dave Johnson's circuit is the ultra low voltage logic gate: Digikey P/N 296-13169-1-ND This is one gate in a package the size of an SOT-23 transistor but with five leads instead of three.

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/SN74AUC1G04DCKR/296-13169-1-ND/484306

http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/sn74auc1g04.pdf

The device is rated for a power supply voltage down to 0.8V, but will go lower.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Farmhand on June 09, 2014, 09:10:27 AM

Yeah that part is the one to get and should be cheap 57 cents each or 40 cents each if you get 10. :) With one of those parts we
should be able to make an oscillator similar to the one below but run it from less than 1 volt.

I've made an efficient oscillator circuit from a CD4049 chip and it works ok at 2.5 volts but won't work much lower.

After adjusting it a bit I got about 90% efficiency lighting 2 x 5 mm LED's from the 2.59 volt supply. I knocked off 0.05 volts from
the output so it didn't look so efficient, hahahahaha see the shot says 8 v.

The input was 3.3 mA at 2.59 v = 0.00855 W. Input fairly smooth. Measurements done with an accurate DMM and current sensed
across a 1 Ohm resistor.

The output was 1 mA at 7.95 v = 0.00795 W. Output was DC in a cap as the shot shows.

0.00795 w / 0.00855 w = 93 % efficient. LED's were bright enough to leave dots on my eyes. ;D

At other less than ideal adjustments I got consistently 60 to 70 % efficient.

First shot shows the collector waveform in yellow and the capacitor voltage that the LED's are running from in blue,
8v across 2 x 5 mm LED's.. I went for zero volts at the collector switching in the first shot.

Second shot is the oscillator signal at the capacitor Blue trace, (second gate of three) and the Base drive in Yellow.

Third shot show the frequency backed off and the coil ringing.

Fourth is the circuit running, the capacitance is 200 pF and I set up the adjustable circuit from the CMOS Cookbook,
the right pot determines the output low time and the left pot determines the output high time, this can be reversed
by using another inverter gate.

The high time pulse output can go to as narrow as 1 uS to over 90% duty and the frequency from 25 kHz up to 180 kHz as it is.

I used only three gates on the bottom side of the HEX buffer.

..

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Farmhand on June 09, 2014, 11:36:57 AM

Here's the whole show almost. I made a simple JT with a few extra turns on the base trigger winding and used 1 K resistance. It's working about 40 kHz and boosting the 1.2 volts to 5.8 volts for the LED driver which is now driving 3 LED's with 14 volts. ;D

What a hoot.

First shot is the JT collector wave form and the final LED voltage.

Second one is the CMOS driven transistor collector wave form, (can use mosfet now "logic level").

and the set up.

Interestingly the LED from ground to base is lighting up, ( it's got the end that usually goes to the positive going to circuit ground and the other end to base, :-\ if I put a diode there it goes up to a higher frequency.

EDIT: It works better without the LED and 2.2 k base resistance, now it's boosting 7.6 volts for the other circuit.

Added circuit so far, I'll try to see how low it drains the battery to.
..

P.S. Final circuit could have a three terminal output or transformer output. A three terminal output would have the circuit ground the output diode and the positive rail available to use as outputs. if we want to charge a battery that is a lower voltage than the supply voltage we can connect by the it negative to the positive rail of the circuit and charge from the output diode, if the battery to be charged is more than the supply voltage or we want to dump the cap into a load or just run LED's ect. we can connect the load by the negative to the circuit ground and charge from the diode/output capacitor. Then a divided voltage could control these logic devices to some degree. There is still three more logic gates on the CD4049 HEX buffer. :)

The low voltage part that Mark.E linked to might only have one or two gates or "Schmitt" triggers (didn't look yet :-[) so we might need several. I'll try to get 20.

..

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on June 09, 2014, 12:50:48 PM

Note that in "CMOS osc 3" you have a very clear ringing that has a frequency very near 400 kHz. This is the natural resonant frequency. At present this is a loss, as power sloshes back and forth dissipating a little on each cycle and the amplitude of the ringing diminishes to zero before the next "push" happens.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Farmhand on June 09, 2014, 01:57:12 PM

Yeah I realize that loss, and I try to adjust it so the ringing is gone and when I adjust it further to cramp up the wave form it raises the amplitude. And it's at that setting it seems most efficient, no ringing at all because no time for ringing. I adjusted it back just to reduce the power output but then the JT's boosted voltage became higher anyway ;D and the output from the second oscillator stayed just a bit less, not much, so better to run it without the ringing. The test coil is a ringy coil. That will be changed out for a smaller one.

Could probably run a low power micro there if the voltage could be controlled from the initial boost side.

..

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on June 09, 2014, 02:24:34 PM

"Ringy" is good because it means high Q which means small losses per cycle in the resonant ringing. On the other hand eliminating ringing by shortening the time between stimulating pulses is good because then you are approaching true resonant pumping, where a tiny push at the exact right time keeps a high-amplitude response going and this is not allowed to decay.
I think. Maybe.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: mscoffman on June 09, 2014, 02:55:45 PM

Quote from: MarkE on June 09, 2014, 01:44:11 AM
A 74, 74LS, etc 5V series TTL or 4000 series CMOS will not work.

The key to Dave Johnson's circuit is the ultra low voltage logic gate: Digikey P/N 296-13169-1-ND This is one gate in a package the size of an SOT-23 transistor but with five leads instead of three.

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/SN74AUC1G04DCKR/296-13169-1-ND/484306 (http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/SN74AUC1G04DCKR/296-13169-1-ND/484306)

http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/sn74auc1g04.pdf (http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/sn74auc1g04.pdf)

The device is rated for a power supply voltage down to 0.8V, but will go lower.

A 74x14 hysteresis inverter version exists too.

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/SN74AUC1G14DBVR/296-12880-6-ND/1634643 (http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/SN74AUC1G14DBVR/296-12880-6-ND/1634643)

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on June 09, 2014, 04:00:09 PM

Quote from: mscoffman on June 09, 2014, 02:55:45 PM

A 74x14 hysteresis inverter version exists too.

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/SN74AUC1G14DBVR/296-12880-6-ND/1634643 (http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/SN74AUC1G14DBVR/296-12880-6-ND/1634643)

One would have to experiment to see if the AUC14 works better at below spec supply voltage than the AUC04 . The hysteresis of the '14 will probably make it harder to start oscillating.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Farmhand on June 09, 2014, 05:42:02 PM

Umm I scoped the base of the JT transistors base and it is going negative by almost 10 volts when the transistor is off !
What's the go with that - is that ok ? No wonder it lights the red LED backwards there.

Can I make use of that voltage to bootstrap the JT supply voltage some how ?

....

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: SeaMonkey on June 09, 2014, 08:05:13 PM

A certain amount of reverse bias across the Base-Emitter
junction is beneficial as it aids transistor turn-off and
enhances switching efficiency.

If the reverse voltage is too great (ordinarily more than
about 8 Volts) the junction will go into breakdown because
its doping is very similar to a Zener Diode. If breakdown
occurs at the reverse voltage peaks then undesired and
unpredictable things may happen.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on June 09, 2014, 08:55:35 PM

Sometimes the NPN transistor will work when it's wired backwards, too: E where C should be and C where E should be. This gives some interesting effects too. Not all transistors in all JT circuits will do this, but when you find one that does it's pretty interesting to fool around with.

I also have one transistor, a 2n2222a, that is "partially failed" and it also does some very interesting things in the Basic JT circuit.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Farmhand on June 09, 2014, 09:18:15 PM

Ok Fixed that problem, clamped it at less than 1 volt, and I'm thinking of adding a small inductor (see drawing) I found with a enormous inductance for it's size and turns, must be special core material.

Anyway if I add this inductor at the spot indicated as (A) on the circuit it might help a bit more.

The transistor isn't wired backwards it's 1) emitter, 2) base, 3) collector. all good. with pnp the emitter goes to most positive, is that right ? Could be confusing.
..

At the moment to get the initial boost to over 5 volts in C3 for the logic circuit I have to stop the pulses from the CD4049 chip by manually holding one of the gate inputs low momentarily, only takes a touch. Needs a fix.
.
Base is blue trace collector is yellow.
..

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on June 09, 2014, 09:34:39 PM

Beware that small coils with large inductance usually also have high resistance and/or low saturation currents. You should also replace at least D2 with a good Schottky. A 10BQ015 type such as MicroSemi LSM115 has almost no forward voltage. The leakage shouldn't hurt you in this application.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Farmhand on June 09, 2014, 09:53:26 PM

Yes Mark that coil won't work in a JT for some reason, the resistance is not high, it's fairly thick wire, might need to wind one, maybe a resistor will do. I don't have any Schottkys yet, some ordered but I might get more, this is fun and useful. I need to order the small gate chips so I'll get some of those Schottkys too.

Tinsel I think when I adjust the circuits so that the switch turns on just before the coil finishes discharging then the current is already flowing in the right direction and it gives that push along with it. Even the JT wave form shows that now. You can see that the slope on the decline of the discharge gets clipped by the switch turning back on.

Is that good or better when voltage is zero ?

..

Oh I see, is that transistor bad maybe ? I thought it was happening because of the extra turns on the base trigger coil, the yellow turns are extra ones two blue coils the same on there with the yellow added to the end of one for the base trigger.

..

Tinsel with the Logic circuit I can cramp up the wave form by adjusting the frequency/pulse width and clip the back of the discharge off square, which increases the amplitude of the output, and makes it "square" or rectangle.

..
P.S.Here's a pic of a few of my small inductors, the little one beside the one with blue tape is about a half inch diameter and
has 1.2 mH inductance but only a few turns and hardly any resistance.
Only 7 turns or so and it is really light, like it's core is not made of normal "metallic like" material.
...

The shot below shows the current through the inductor sensed by a 1 Ohm resistor in the place I marked (A) on the drawing. 1.2 mH.
..

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on June 09, 2014, 10:42:41 PM

Quote from: Farmhand on June 09, 2014, 09:53:26 PM
Yes Mark that coil won't work in a JT for some reason, the resistance is not high, it's fairly thick wire, might need to wind one, maybe a resistor will do. I don't have any Schottkys yet, some ordered but I might get more, this is fun and useful. I need to order the small gate chips so I'll get some of those Schottkys too.

Tinsel I think when I adjust the circuits so that the switch turns on just before the coil finishes discharging then the current is already flowing in the right direction and it gives that push along with it. Even the JT wave form shows that now. You can see that the slope on the decline of the discharge gets clipped by the switch turning back on.

Is that good or better when voltage is zero ?

..

Oh I see, is that transistor bad maybe ? I thought it was happening because of the extra turns on the base trigger coil, the yellow turns are extra ones two blue coils the same on there with the yellow added to the end of one for the base trigger.

..

Tinsel with the Logic circuit I can cramp up the wave form by adjusting the frequency/pulse width and clip the back of the discharge off square, which increases the amplitude of the output, and makes it "square" or rectangle.

..
P.S.Here's a pic of a few of my small inductors, the little one beside the one with blue tape is about a half inch diameter and
has 1.2 mH inductance but only a few turns and hardly any resistance.
Only 7 turns or so and it is really light, like it's core is not made of normal "metallic like" material.

If you are ordering parts, you could try these Schottky diodes as well. They have a bit higher Vfw than the LSM115s but much lower leakage current.

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/RB161M-20TR/RB161M-20TR-ND/926464

ETA here is another diode that is about as good as you can get for low Vfw in the mA to 100's of mA range and low leakage: http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/DFLS120L-7/DFLS120LDICT-ND/673201

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on June 10, 2014, 04:57:48 AM

Quote from: TinselKoala on June 09, 2014, 12:50:48 PM
Note that in "CMOS osc 3" you have a very clear ringing that has a frequency very near 400 kHz. This is the natural resonant frequency. At present this is a loss, as power sloshes back and forth dissipating a little on each cycle and the amplitude of the ringing diminishes to zero before the next "push" happens.

Removing the output capacitor and output diode would force all the energy to go through the LEDs. There is good data around that shows that the highest energy efficiency from boost converters is direct discharge of the inductor into the LEDs timed to completely discharge the inductor. The problem is that for any given peak current handling capability in the power switch the maximum power that can be delivered is much smaller than with the flyback rectifier and capacitor.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Farmhand on June 11, 2014, 12:05:35 AM

Here's a setup to drain the life out of a depleted AAA and run some LED's while charging the tiny NiMH batteries and running the LED's with 10.7 or so volts across them, when the AAA is fully drained by the JT the CMOS circuit continues to drive the LED's efficiently.

With the Source battery at 1 volt the JT is drawing 40 mA or so from the battery at 1.2 volts it draws about 60 mA or so ect..

The CMOS LED driver circuit is more efficient as compared to the JT, But won't run below 2.5 volts around about. It does provide a more stable output voltage across the LED's though. Surprisingy so.

With 10.7 volts across the LED's the output is about 1 mA x the 10.7 volts - but the 2 x 3.7 volt 20 mAh NiMH batteries are charging at 4.05 volts and just holding now. ;) As the JT power reduces the little NiMH's will begin to help it out. :-\

With this setup I can see/measure how much power I get from a AAA source battery (the input power over time) and the amount of output power as well.
...

I just received my 2 x 2.7 volt @ 50 Farad capacitors, they are fairly large, ;D.

..

If I swap the 3.7 volt NiMH batteries for a 25 Farad capacitor charged to 5 volts then disconnect the JT supply battery so no battery, it should run for several hours. :) We'll see later on. Longer if I use better parts and a better designed circuit.

..

We could store energy in a high Farad capacitor from electro-smog or environmental then run the low voltage booster circuit from that intermittently to charge the Boosted capacitor or battery, then use the higher voltage as desired.

..

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Farmhand on June 11, 2014, 01:52:59 AM

Wow at 0.47 volts the JT is still running at a stable frequency of about 86 kHz and outputting 4.5 volts max at the collector.

But running the initial battery voltage down also runs down the secondary battery voltage so that it all stops all of a sudden that way.

If I disconnect the input AAA battery when the secondary batt or cap is charged to 4.2 volts it will run on for some time I think.

..

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Farmhand on June 12, 2014, 08:59:48 AM

Well I ordered some parts from digikey and the postage was more than the parts cost. I had to change to the Australian website then the postage was 34 dollars, and they asked a lot of questions as to why I wanted to import the parts. Weird.

Anyway I got 20 of those 74AUC gates and some of the Schottky's MarkE suggested, some MPSA18 transistors, some 2N7000 mosfets and some 1N5819 diodes.

If I order from them again I will make sure I have the cart full. :)

Thanks for the tips on the parts.

..

I'm wondering if one of the 74AUC logic gates can be used in the place of the pnp transistor in a two transistor single coil "feed back" type oscillator, then it could possibly be turned on and off by a micro to maintain the boosted output voltage level.

Or once the boosted voltage is achieved the micro could take over switching the LV transistor, or just perform "gating" to keep the output voltage stable and not allow it to go too high.

The circuits naturally "gate" in burst mode when the input voltage gets real low, so the same voltage sense could adjust output power to maintain an equilibrium, or perform controlled dumping of the boosted voltage into storage batteries.

..

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: magpwr on June 12, 2014, 05:49:10 PM

Quote from: Farmhand on June 12, 2014, 08:59:48 AM
Well I ordered some parts from digikey and the postage was more than the parts cost. I had to change to the Australian website then the postage was 34 dollars, and they asked a lot of questions as to why I wanted to import the parts. Weird.

Anyway I got 20 of those 74AUC gates and some of the Schottky's MarkE suggested, some MPSA18 transistors, some 2N7000 mosfets and some 1N5819 diodes.

If I order from them again I will make sure I have the cart full. :)

Thanks for the tips on the parts.

..

I'm wondering if one of the 74AUC logic gates can be used in the place of the pnp transistor in a two transistor single coil "feed back" type oscillator, then it could possibly be turned on and off by a micro to maintain the boosted output voltage level.

Or once the boosted voltage is achieved the micro could take over switching the LV transistor, or just perform "gating" to keep the output voltage stable and not allow it to go too high.

The circuits naturally "gate" in burst mode when the input voltage gets real low, so the same voltage sense could adjust output power to maintain an equilibrium, or perform controlled dumping of the boosted voltage into storage batteries.

..

hi Farmhand,

If you want free delivery from digikey you will need to order at least $100 Usd worth of item.The delivery is extremely fast.Eg:Placed order last week Friday evening and got items on Monday afternoon(less than 4 days) and i'm living in Asia-Singapore.

Need to plan list of parts and taking quantity in account before placing order if you are already serious into experimenting.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Farmhand on June 12, 2014, 06:49:11 PM

Yeah I figured it would be fast delivery so that's good, I'm ready to experiment. :)

Here's a PDF with the "Application Noted for the Texas Instruments "Little Logic devices".

..

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Farmhand on July 08, 2014, 01:03:25 PM

I'm testing a low voltage "boost chip" NCP1400, and i thought some might be interested in my results since there has been some
interest in them on this thread. I got the 3 volt parts for a regulated 3 volt output. It works down under 0.1 volt input. :)

I put together a quick setup on a PCB since the circuit is so simple it's easiest to hand draw it. The coil I used has a bit more
inductance than is recommended at between 18 and 27 uH, mine is about 35 uH.

Anyway, with only 1 volt input and working into 2 x NiMH AAA batteries in series at 2.78 volts to charge them it is pulling about 220 mA.
It begins current limiting with about 330 mA input current at 1.3 volts in this situation, frequency varies but so far it's between 180 kHz
and 100 kHz.
It works down under 0.1 volts input which is awesome. And throughput is impressive as well.

The LED is across the output but it's just an indicator.

Considering how quickly it is charging the batteries for the input it's using the efficiency seems like it must be fairly good.
All in all a very simple and cheap circuit, but the chip is regulated as a booster.

..

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on July 08, 2014, 04:01:43 PM

Thumbs up! I approve of the construction technique. I had to blow up the picture to find that little chip though! Maybe that's what's under Pirate Bill's mystery black blobs in the garden lights.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 08, 2014, 09:19:27 PM

Farmhand:

Nice work. Where did you find the 1400? (I googled it and found lots of info but no sources) I have started working in this area as well and was looking for some 0119A chips (the 4 pin chips found in solar garden lights that do NOT have the gray blob) and I found some. A guy has a bunch of the garden light circuit boards with the inductors, the 0119A chips, resistor and the led for like $.40 ea. I bought 40 of them. I also bought some axial 47 mH inductors to play with as well. This was a much better deal than paying 2 dollars ea. for the chips alone.

I have been working 11 hour days for the past month or so and have not had time to even test those boards I bought. My hours have returned to normal so I should be able to catch up in a week or so. I like your pcb. That smd chip, or something similar, might just be what is under the gray blobs.

TK:

Yes, it could easily be something like the chip Farmhand is using. If one can wind a ferrite toroid and get 47 mH, why don't more folks use these axial inductors which are cheaper and much easier? Also, how are you guys measuring the mH's of the inductors? Is there a cheap, do it yourself kit for this?

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Farmhand on July 08, 2014, 10:07:30 PM

Well thanks gentlemen, TK I'm just copying the method of not drilling any holes that I see on these threads. ;) It is very much
a superior method, because drilling holes is messy, fiddly and time consuming. it does require a bit more room, but the leads on through hole parts can be left with some length which allows for them to be reused when replaced.

Pirate, I got the chips from Ebay, they were expensive and I only got two so I figured I would put one through it's paces and I
cannot harm it. Yet!.. I have concerns with the axial inductors that are small and look like resistors because of the resistance they
must have and the saturation current ect. As you can see my coil is very large and I'm sure the size could be reduced but I want it
to be able to pass as much current as possible because the chip adjusts the duty down and the input power at very low voltages is
better if the coil passes current better, the frequency increases as the input voltage drops on these chips.

On the circuit I also used an RBM161M Schottky SMD diode. Forward voltage is about 0.083 by my meter.

I use an inductance meter (cheap one) lowest setting is 2 mH but it measures to 3 decimal places so it measures uH, but not
very accurately below 10 uH. The coil has a very low DC resistance and I might make a smaller better coil for it if I can't find one.

I agree that your black blobs may well be hiding these chips, they come in other voltages up to I think 7 volts can't remember,
don't quote that, but they say they can manufacture parts with regulated outputs in 100 mA increments for special orders.

I wanted 4.5 or 5 volt parts but could not get any.

I'll try to break the chip but I'm not sure what will do it except over voltage input. I guess a small hammer will break it too. ;D

..

Speaking of inductors I don't get how the little SMD inductors can handle so much power for their size, but I think i have a board
with some SMD inductors on it (if it can be found) If I can find one I'll try it out.

..

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 08, 2014, 11:43:24 PM

Farmhand:

Thanks for the info. I appreciate it.

Hey, I found these after doing a little research:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10PCS-NCP1402SN33T1-Manu-0N-Encapsulation-SOT23-5-200-mA-PFM-Step-Up-/371080306571?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item56661c1f8b (http://www.ebay.com/itm/10PCS-NCP1402SN33T1-Manu-0N-Encapsulation-SOT23-5-200-mA-PFM-Step-Up-/371080306571?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item56661c1f8b)

This is the NCP1402 which is a later version. Start-up is .8 volts and will run down to .3 volts and boosts to 3.3 volts. (Perfect for single led) You can get it in another alteration that boosts to 5.5 volts with the other numbers being the same. 10 pcs for $3.00 is not a bad price.

Here is the specs link so you can check out other variations offered by these guys on ebay:

http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/product.do?id=NCP1402 (http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/product.do?id=NCP1402)

I believe TK said he has ordered from these folks before if I am not mistaken.

Another vendor on ebay wanted $1 ea. and $5 shipping!! So, $6.00 for one pc.

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Farmhand on July 09, 2014, 06:54:44 AM

Good find Pirate, those NCP1402 parts do look like the improved part with double the output current capability, and they use a higher
inductance of 47 uH rather than the recommended 18 to 27 for the NCP1400 part. Nice.

OK I found a printer board but it has a lot of nice small regular type inductors but with interesting cores, I also found a "resistor" looking
inductor as well.

The two identical ones with black cores and 330 marked on top have about 33 uH each and the resistance is less than can be
measured by my meter. The little green one that looks like a resistor is about 22 uH and has 0.5 Ohms resistance.

The nice looking inductors with the black cores have about 0.6 or 0.7 mm wire, and oddly enough the cores are not electrically
conductive. at all it seems. The little inductor on the other circuit has 1 mH and I can measure some resistance to it as well.

.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on July 09, 2014, 08:52:01 AM

Yes, I've ordered from UTSource about half-a-dozen times, and just received the latest order a couple days ago. They have hard-to-find items; I first used them when I needed some obscure Motorola power audio transistors for my old FG and literally couldn't find them anywhere else. They ship from China and usually estimate 3 weeks for normal delivery, but the last order arrived in my mailbox (central Texas USA) in just about a week from placing the order. I was pleased and surprised.
They give you email confirmation of your order, basic tracking, and components are properly packed in anti-static packaging if appropriate. I got 10 ea. 2sk170 GR FETs for 3 dollars, plus 4 dollars shipping. They emailed me to make sure I wanted the cheap unsorted GR version instead of matched pairs of BL version (a little more expensive).
Their website is a little strange, almost like a "make offer" pricing, but now they have set up a big EBay store section which is probably easier to use than their website.

The little inductors are neat. Notice that the color code is the same as for resistors: Red Red Black is 2, 2, and 0 zeros, or 22 uH. The cylindrical ones 33uH can be wrapped with another winding over the outside and then used in transistor JT circuits, or of course can be used as single inductors with the booster chips. Some of the cylindrical ones in that footprint I've found have a biasing magnet as part of the core. It it that type I used, with an added winding, for my 6 NE2 HVJT using 2n3055 or 13003 transistor.

ETA: I'll bet you could put a few turns around that green 22uH baby, as a "primary", and it would work in a transistor JT. I am finding that just about any core material (even air and ferrite) will work and just about any turns ratio too. Of course for the "best" performance in terms of efficiency, low voltage, low current, etc the parameters need to be much more carefully chosen.
For example I just made a JT using Conrad's 2sk170 circuit; for the inductor I used a little cylindrical ferrite bead 10mm long x 10 mm OD that was a choke thing slipped around a power supply wire originally, no windings. I wound it with about 80 turns of #34 and 5 turns of #24 and it works great.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Farmhand on July 09, 2014, 11:29:45 AM

Tinsel any idea what the other parts are in that picture ? The two little black things were labeled "L" and the little blue things were
Labeled "C", I thought the black things might be some kind of low value inductors and the blue things capacitors, but I can't measure
any values for either, the blue things look like little gas discharge tubes and have 470v and 0306 written on them.

Anyway, The printer board is out of a HP printer and has a few more neat parts on it.

Pirate these chips can power as many LED's as the input and the output current limits will allow.
Three works well with a 3 volt 100 mA output part. ;D A 200 mA 3.3 volt part could run 7 x 5 mm LED's at full brightness.

Here's a comparison of 3 x 5 mm LED's in parallel, powered in the first pic with the circuit supplied by only just under 0.5 volts.
Second pic is with the same load but supplied by just over 1.1 volts. In the latter the output voltage regulation is active. But in
the first pic the input is so little that the circuit cannot quite get to regulation voltage of 3 volts.

3 volts across the 3 x 5 mm LED's in parallel makes them really bright, so bright I cannot look directly at them without it causing
eye pain. 8) I guess with only 3 volts the LED's will last longer, (they're cheapies).

..

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on July 09, 2014, 05:26:36 PM

The little black things are inductors, probably fraction of a uH so hard to read on a meter. The other things are, I think, gas-filled spark gaps, sort of like modem protectors. I'm not sure about this but that is what they look like to me. Presumably the "470V" might be their firing threshold. Generally used like lightning protectors to shunt HV spikes to ground, hence the heavy terminations.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Farmhand on July 09, 2014, 06:52:42 PM

Thanks Tinsel, So two 470 volt GDT's on an inkjet printer circuit board wow curious. Might help make a neat little spark gap coil with
low input frequency and low duty of use. Maybe a switch in a stunner umm.. light. ;D

That UTsource ebay seller has a lot of parts and cheapish as well, he'll get my business.

I was just thinking one of these NCP1402 parts with a voltage of 2 to 2.5 volts would be good for charging a supercap from a
feeble or a good source of power. And higher output voltage parts also good for simple LED torch circuits, but no adjustment of
power output is not the best for making the torch last longest in use.

..

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Farmhand on July 10, 2014, 03:49:28 AM

As we can see by my pictures on the previous page where the LED's are not even fully driven, and yet the LED's themselves cannot
be seen, the apparent efficiency of the Joule thief circuit is kinda obsolete. If you can count the LED's you are looking at then they
are not fully driven.

In my opinion according to my experiments if we simply give the LED's a truly pulsed supply then we do not necessarily reduce the
brightness but we do reduce the time the light is emitted and therefore we also reduce the total amount of light emitted. So any
efficiency in that respect is only "apparent".

For dimming LED's, Pulsing them is a fantastic idea, but I would bet that for the maximum practical amount of emitted light we must
drive the LED at it's rated voltage for 100% duty.

The amount of light being analogous to Energy and and the brightness being analogous to Power in a way.

The real efficiencies are determined by the output power as compared to the input power and in the efficiency of the conversion
of stored energy to light.

Now I'm not saying a Joule thief cannot be efficient, but I think it's biggest draw card is being able to use down a single cell to almost
complete depletion of energy.

And saying that I see no reason not to use a capacitor across the output or LED's so that the output power can be measured,
at least in cases where people might claim they are OU or want to claim other peoples setups are OU.

As well people might be pleased to see that the LED's may well emit a lot more light and be more useful than they are with low duty higher voltage pulses.

Even if a capacitor is used and it still allows some ripple the LED's will see the ripple.

Anyway I cannot get anywhere near the same light out of pulsed LED's (without burning them out) as I can from LED's supplied
with "smoothed" DC, and the ones supplied with smoothed DC I think will last longer as long as the ratings are respected.

The LED's on the previous page pictures are now outputting as much light as the really bright ones driven in the regular devices
I have.

Basically if the circuit does not dissipate much power in itself then you have efficiency in that the circuit itself does not waste input.
LED's are inherently efficient so as long as the circuit is efficient and does it's job we have efficient LED lighting.

..

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Farmhand on July 11, 2014, 03:47:59 AM

OK with a 50 Farad capacitor charged to 2.1 volts and run down to 0.65 volts about 100 Joules is consumed, This energy was
sufficient to run the 3 x 5 mm LED's in parallel for some minutes over a half an hour, ( didn't keep perfect track). But going on only
30 minutes the input would be 100 / 30 minutes = 3.33 joules per minute then divided by 60 seconds = 0.055 Joules per second
or 0.055 Watts average input power.

During the run the LEDs had 2.988 volts DC across them until the input went under about 0.85 volts when the LED's were visibly
dimmer than with the 2.988 volts across them but not much, i failed to record the voltages across the LED's as the input voltage
dropped below 0.9 volts, I should have. With almost three volts DC across them the LED's are driven well enough for practical use.

Anyway I intend to now put together a LED board with a Current Sense Resistor so I can try to measure the output power, and
get a rough efficiency rating for the circuit while driving three 5 mm bright white LED's.

I have on the way some 5 volt NCP1402's and some Si7478DP mosfets so I can switch a coil powered by the 5 volts with the help
of a micro controller and try some fun stuff.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Farmhand on July 11, 2014, 08:08:15 AM

Alright in order to make the calculation more accurate I used the 50 Farad capacitor from 2.1 volts down to 1 volt which is about 85 Joules and I got only 15 minutes run time but the output remained consistent during the run at 2.98 volts @ 23 mA = 0.0685 Watts.
So if I take 85 Joules and divide by 15 minutes then again by 60 seconds I get 85 / 15 = 5.66 / 60 = 0.094 Watts input.

So the efficiency for the setup during that run was about 0.0685 / 0.094 = 72.8% efficient. Not bad considering that I am using
regular electrolytic capacitors and the output capacitor is a single cap not a paralleled group for lower equivalent series
resistance. And there is also a 3 mm indicator LED across the output with a 1 K resistor in series with it and the power dissipated
by the CSR which would not be much I don't think. Both should also be considered as output.

The LED's were too bright to look at directly for the entire run. And they were under driven with only 23 mA between them.
I'm thinking they can take that much current each but I'm not sure I have no specs for the LED's I have.

I think my picaxe controlled 12 volt input boost converter is more efficient though when operating at low power and boosting to
only double the voltage, it has paralleled output capacitors, dual coils and mosfets, operates at 40 or 60 kHz (can't recall exactly)
and uses Schottky 1N5822 diodes.

..

Now I'll try to fit a resistor to the input to measure the input current and determine input power at the same time as the output.
But I'm going to say the setup can be between 70 and 85% efficient depending on how it is used and built.

If folks want a circuit to suck the life out of a single cell then these booster chips make a good one.

..

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 11, 2014, 10:04:52 PM

Farmhand:

I am glad to see that you are getting some of the 1402's. I plan on getting a few when I get paid. Going back to your earlier photo with the 1400, I believe I see an axial inductor along with your wound coil? If so, why did you do this?

I am also confused by the 1402 website data that says you only need to add three components to get an efficient circuit. OK, we have the 1402, a resistor and an inductor....what is the other component they are talking about? Are they counting the led here? Or, a regular diode?

I will have more questions once my 1402's get here but it will be a few weeks before I can order. Keep up the good work.

Thanks,

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Farmhand on July 11, 2014, 10:47:17 PM

Hi Pirate, The 1402's are almost the same as the 1400's except I think the internal mosfet is rated for more current. I did remove an axial inductor from a board to measure it, but on my 1400 board I placed an indicator LED with a 1 K resistor in series with it, the main external components are --

1) inductor (low resistance)
2) diode (best schottky)
3) input capacitor
4) output capacitor.

We can say that there are 3 different external components, but 4 total.

I will take a close up of the board and I hope to make some PCB art with places for some extra components we might want
like CSR's and such, any suggestions on things to make places for on the board is welcome.

I am so impressed by the NCP1400 that I just had to get some NCP1402's.

Do you have some solder paste, I found it is invaluable for soldering fiddly parts and for tinning traces, I simply put a bit of paste
where I want to solder to use it like flux and the solder flows into the parts much better neater and quicker, quicker means less
chance of damaging the tiny parts.

If you want I will make a PCB or two for you and post it to you, but it might take a couple of weeks, just a thought. I never know
when I'll get laid up with spine pain. Lately I'm doing pretty well though. If things go bad enough they always get better, somehow. :-\

I think you're trustworthy, so just PM me if you're interested in the PCB. I may have some other extra parts you might make use of as well.

Thinking of easy ways to construct a smallish mag-carbon battery, the last one didn't last long but it gave current like mad. :D
I think the separator is important.

..

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 12, 2014, 01:05:54 AM

Farmhand:

Thank you very much for your kind offer. I will pm you...however...I too have some parts I can send you that you might find useful. I can send you some new flash circuits (400 volts when modified) and also a few of those garden light circuit boards I bought that have that chip I was looking for on it. It only works down to .8 volts but also has the ability to switch from solar charging to battery power.

I think I like the 1402's better though. I want to make a nice light for folks that they can run on "dead" batteries and, going down to .3 volts sounds a lot better to me. Plus, as you pointed out, I can run several leds from it due to the power abilities of that chip. I can also send you a set of my universal magnetic battery connectors (version 3.0) to test before I go to market with them. I want TK to try a set of them also. They work really well and, a buddy of mine suggested that I should offer a version that has alligator clip leads on them as well. I am considering this.

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Farmhand on July 12, 2014, 05:07:52 AM

Here's a closeup of the hand drawn board, I had trouble making the traces small enough for the chip so I made the traces to take
the chip on a five pin adapter, but when I tried the chip on there I found that if I solder pin 1 and 2 on the same pad I could put the
chip on the board. Also the little three LED board is there, I can drive it from either end one way I can measure current, or I could
chain another load after the LED's.

..

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 23, 2014, 07:35:58 PM

Farmhand, nice job. I just received 10 pcs of the 1402's....wow...are they tiny!!!!

I think they call it the SOT-23 package but, i can't even see the damn legs sticking out of the package, ha ha. I can make a small circuit board for these but, how the heck do I test my set-up first to determine if I have the correct hook-up?

I will have to think about this for a bit I suppose.

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on July 23, 2014, 08:20:55 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on July 23, 2014, 07:35:58 PM
Farmhand, nice job. I just received 10 pcs of the 1402's....wow...are they tiny!!!!

I think they call it the SOT-23 package but, i can't even see the damn legs sticking out of the package, ha ha. I can make a small circuit board for these but, how the heck do I test my set-up first to determine if I have the correct hook-up?

I will have to think about this for a bit I suppose.

Bill

Spark Fun sells power converter circuit boards with NCP1402s on them, complete for $6. You can unsolder the inductor and connect up your other circuitry.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on July 23, 2014, 08:25:19 PM

Quote from: Farmhand on July 11, 2014, 10:47:17 PM
Hi Pirate, The 1402's are almost the same as the 1400's except I think the internal mosfet is rated for more current. I did remove an axial inductor from a board to measure it, but on my 1400 board I placed an indicator LED with a 1 K resistor in series with it, the main external components are --

1) inductor (low resistance)
2) diode (best schottky)
3) input capacitor
4) output capacitor.

We can say that there are 3 different external components, but 4 total.

I will take a close up of the board and I hope to make some PCB art with places for some extra components we might want
like CSR's and such, any suggestions on things to make places for on the board is welcome.

I am so impressed by the NCP1400 that I just had to get some NCP1402's.

Do you have some solder paste, I found it is invaluable for soldering fiddly parts and for tinning traces, I simply put a bit of paste
where I want to solder to use it like flux and the solder flows into the parts much better neater and quicker, quicker means less
chance of damaging the tiny parts.

If you want I will make a PCB or two for you and post it to you, but it might take a couple of weeks, just a thought. I never know
when I'll get laid up with spine pain. Lately I'm doing pretty well though. If things go bad enough they always get better, somehow. :-\

I think you're trustworthy, so just PM me if you're interested in the PCB. I may have some other extra parts you might make use of as well.

Thinking of easy ways to construct a smallish mag-carbon battery, the last one didn't last long but it gave current like mad. :D
I think the separator is important.

..

The big differences between the NCP1400 and NCP1402:
NCP1400 is a fixed frequency discontinuous conduction device. It is ideal for low power devices and draws almost no current when there is no load.
NCP1402 is a variable frequency continuous conduction device. It handles higher current loads, but is not ideal for extremely low current loads, or no load.

Each works well in the appropriate application.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on July 23, 2014, 08:43:10 PM

Quote from: Farmhand on July 12, 2014, 05:07:52 AM
Here's a closeup of the hand drawn board, I had trouble making the traces small enough for the chip so I made the traces to take
the chip on a five pin adapter, but when I tried the chip on there I found that if I solder pin 1 and 2 on the same pad I could put the
chip on the board. Also the little three LED board is there, I can drive it from either end one way I can measure current, or I could
chain another load after the LED's.

..

Clear package packing tape works really well as a PCB resist. You can tape the whole copper side, then carefully cut traces out with a razor knife and straightedge, to make very thin traces and pads for the surface mount devices. You can also buy sheets of rub-on resist patterns that will lay down the whole DIP or SOT pattern at once, which you can then connect up with drawn resist or tape, etc. I have even seen methods using laser printers and clothes irons; print the pattern with full dark contrast on a sheet of transparency film or glossy magazine paper, and then transfer the toner pattern to the copper with the hot iron.
For hand drawn, I've found that the ordinary black Sharpie marker works just as well as the "resist pen" industrial grade Sharpie and doesn't dry out as fast in the pen, and is quite a bit cheaper. (using ferric chloride etchant, other etchants may not work with the plain Sharpie)

This stuff comes in very handy both for removal and for reassembly of surface mount components, it actually does what it says on the tin:
http://www.chipquik.com/

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 23, 2014, 08:57:59 PM

Quote from: MarkE on July 23, 2014, 08:20:55 PM
Spark Fun sells power converter circuit boards with NCP1402s on them, complete for $6. You can unsolder the inductor and connect up your other circuitry.

Thanks mark, I will look into that. I do have some 1/4 wide copper tape that I could cut into thinner strips, kind of what TK is doing. (Thanks for the idea TK) I have a schematic of the chip but am not sure where everything should go so maybe that sparkfun board would help me with this.

Thanks,

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on July 23, 2014, 09:16:16 PM

https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10967

I like SparkFun. Especially the little red cardboard boxes they ship stuff in.
:D

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Farmhand on July 24, 2014, 05:30:28 AM

I ordered 50 pieces of adapter boards for SMD parts, up to 8 pin devices with two different sizes one side of the adapter pcb has
a small 8 pad mount and the other side has a slightly larger one, they should fit my needs I think.

With the 1400's parts pin 1 and pin 2 can be soldered together on the left side and the Lx and ground pin are "one pad apart" on the other side which makes soldering a bit easier.

The hookup is fairly simple + rail to coil to Lx pin, diode from Lx pin to + of output capacitor, gnd to circuit gnd, pin 1 and pin 2
together and connected to the output side of the diode. no contact pin 3 is isolated, it could be folded up out of the way maybe.

Also the enable pin 1 "CE" can be left floating as it has an internal pull up. Only pin 2 the output voltage monitor pin actually needs to be connected to the output side of the diode.

Sharp solder point, lots of magnification, thin solder and maybe some solder paste helped me a lot.

I quickly became a fan of surface mounting in general where structural strength is not needed.

.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on July 24, 2014, 07:36:29 AM

For fairly low cost SMT soldering Hako has a bunch of product. I like the OKI/Met-Cal gear better. If you can spring for an MFR1110 and three or four tips you will have a nice set-up for casual work. For more serious work, you want a preheater, a hot air gun and solder paste.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Dave45 on July 24, 2014, 09:52:14 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhVCY1yq-xc

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: d3x0r on July 24, 2014, 10:13:41 AM

I'm really liking these NTE172A aka 2N5306 darlington with 7k HFE. (MPSA18 work about the same; tested somewhat success)

(ya I know, it's not really much like a joule thief anymore; I'm calling it a ka4ep torch.. I should probably just start its own thread; and so I did http://www.overunity.com/14794/ka4ep-torch-kacher-torch/ )

I'm waiting on this test to finish to see how long 2 series AAA batteries last... going on 26 hours now; down to 2.55V.
Joule thieves were nice to start with, but they draw a lot of current for not much gain; though I did find a high inductance third winding as a pickup made lighting lots of LEDs easy... since no matter how many you have in series you still only need 20mA... voltage is cheap, it was getting current that was the issue...
( http://www.allaboutbatteries.com/Energy-tables.html (http://www.allaboutbatteries.com/Energy-tables.html) *sigh* this says an alkaline AAA yas 1150 mAh; which is 76 hours or like 3 days :( ... or 1.41Wh, of which I've used 0.49 in 26 hours... so this 3Wh supercap should last for days... need to figure how to use more power with this )
10mA for 500nS at every 12us(83Khz)... 24% duty cycle.. 2.5mA across the load :/ that's not very good power usage at all. well.. I guess... it's 25x the voltage... so can't be too bad (the 500ns isn't constant it's just the width of the bellcurve generously)
-----------

The capacitor that's used kinda matters...
The load that's used kinda matters....

Wish my scope had an integral (sum under the curve) function... It looks to me that 3 of these are lower current than the lower left, even though the lower left peaks out lower... Need a slightly bigger 350V cap (40uF 400V foil wound cap is bad)
Ceramic caps of various voltages also have basically a constant current draw.

Was puzzled by the continuous current draw (lower left image in composite) for a while because the only place power is connected is on the one coil... so why should it be a constant draw... then I realized the cap has an ESR, which the battery apparently can't quite keep up with... actually it's probably more of an capacitive impedance issue... that it takes X power to charge the cap at Y voltage so it can only take so much current in at a time... so I experimented with caps, and only found this one that goes down to 0 current.
I had added CSR's in various places and finally found that I am only returning 2mA for a short time in an decreasing slope (2mA max, decreasing over the span of T2 in the second image). And since I had a constant draw of 15mA that was basically nothing (it does help though, and is more than 0).

(yellow trace in composite is in same location; green trace in composite is on the collector, and it's biased from the 2.55V, yellow resistor is 1Ohm so mV=mA. Lower right image green is moved to top end of secondary)

---
Edit: also the lower right ended up missing the bounce-curve, but that's cause I had a scope probe connected where I did... adding a few hundred pF of capacitance to ground does the same effect... but reduces the output a lot... have to tinker with that some.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on July 24, 2014, 12:09:24 PM

If your scope exports .csv data then you can use a spreadsheet program to derive almost anything that you think of calculating.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: d3x0r on July 24, 2014, 12:15:06 PM

That's a thought; have to change scopes around by could probably manage that.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: magpwr on July 26, 2014, 02:09:32 AM

hi everyone,

I have just uploaded a youtube video of my recent discovery- Powerful toroidless joule thief
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QP8PkgT1T9o (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QP8PkgT1T9o)

This is the 4th version of my toroidless joule thief circuit as there are other types shown in my youtube channel :sanjev21 which is not using toroid and yet able to light led brightly.This is the final version.

Without the use of any toroids would take the overall cost building a joule thief circuit to a new low.Here i am talking about avoid buying toroids which cost money unless you got some spares from salvage after which you still need to wind the coils.

The Powerful toroidless joule thief circuit can be assembled in less than 5minutes on a breadboard once you got the components ready.

The schematic is revealed in the video.

Component list
2222 transistor
4.7 kohms resistor
10nf capacitor
100uH x 2 inductor
Led

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on July 26, 2014, 02:42:15 AM

But... but.... Toroids are _magic_, aren't they?
:P

(Just kidding, nice work!)

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Hoppy on July 26, 2014, 04:17:36 AM

Quote from: magpwr on July 26, 2014, 02:09:32 AM
hi everyone,

I have just uploaded a youtube video of my recent discovery- Powerful toroidless joule thief
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QP8PkgT1T9o (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QP8PkgT1T9o)

That's like a Bedini without the wheel ;)

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on July 26, 2014, 06:14:50 AM

Quote from: magpwr on July 26, 2014, 02:09:32 AM
hi everyone,

I have just uploaded a youtube video of my recent discovery- Powerful toroidless joule thief
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QP8PkgT1T9o (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QP8PkgT1T9o)

This is the 4th version of my toroidless joule thief circuit as there are other types shown in my youtube channel :sanjev21 which is not using toroid and yet able to light led brightly.This is the final version.

Without the use of any toroids would take the overall cost building a joule thief circuit to a new low.Here i am talking about avoid buying toroids which cost money unless you got some spares from salvage after which you still need to wind the coils.

The Powerful toroidless joule thief circuit can be assembled in less than 5minutes on a breadboard once you got the components ready.

The schematic is revealed in the video.

Component list
2222 transistor
4.7 kohms resistor
10nf capacitor
100uH x 2 inductor
Led

Here is the schematic, and an alternate variation that is more efficient. The original circuit produces sine waves. The alternate circuit is trapezoidal with fast edges.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on July 26, 2014, 06:46:56 AM

Wow, a mosfet with a 1v max gate threshold voltage. That's pretty cool. I just wish it was big enough for me to see without magnifiers!

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: magpwr on July 26, 2014, 08:22:52 AM

Quote from: MarkE on July 26, 2014, 06:14:50 AM
Here is the schematic, and an alternate variation that is more efficient. The original circuit produces sine waves. The alternate circuit is trapezoidal with fast edges.

hi MarkE,

That's the way man.

Research and development faster than a bullet train.

This is the way how i love to get things done.

To sit and rest and watch our bio-clock tick away is not the way.

-------------------------------
I was merely thinking earlier on in the day to connect to a 1n4148 diode to 22222 transistor collector and use a 1uf capacitor at diode output to act as a voltage doubler for my programmable pic12f675 chip which can run as low as 2volts.

I have attached a tiny video of my quick programmed pic12f675 doing 2 led flip-flop running of from 1 x AAA battery.

I'm sure the improved version of yours can power up even more components in a assembled circuit using 1 battery.Nice

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on July 26, 2014, 09:07:13 AM

Quote from: magpwr on July 26, 2014, 08:22:52 AM
hi MarkE,

That's the way man.

Research and development faster than a bullet train.

This is the way how i love to get things done.

To sit and rest and watch our bio-clock tick away is not the way.

-------------------------------
I was merely thinking earlier on in the day to connect to a 1n4148 diode to 22222 transistor collector and use a 1uf capacitor at diode output to act as a voltage doubler for my programmable pic12f675 chip which can run as low as 2volts.

I have attached a tiny video of my quick programmed pic12f675 doing 2 led flip-flop running of from 1 x AAA battery.

I'm sure the improved version of yours can power up even more components in a assembled circuit using 1 battery.Nice

If you want something really compact and efficient for that type of application then I recommend an NCP1400. You can more or less name your output voltage: 2.5V, 3.0V, 3.3V etc. SparkFun sells an NCP1402 board for $6. The only downside to that is that if you have a very light load the voltage will float up on you. That's a potential problem for A/D work, but may be fine for many applications. You can buy the SparkFun board and remove the NCP1402 and replace it with an NCP1400. The standby current on the NCP1400 is very low. So you can use this for things that need to run on a battery for months at a time.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: magpwr on July 26, 2014, 11:37:20 AM

Quote from: MarkE on July 26, 2014, 09:07:13 AM
If you want something really compact and efficient for that type of application then I recommend an NCP1400. You can more or less name your output voltage: 2.5V, 3.0V, 3.3V etc. SparkFun sells an NCP1402 board for $6. The only downside to that is that if you have a very light load the voltage will float up on you. That's a potential problem for A/D work, but may be fine for many applications. You can buy the SparkFun board and remove the NCP1402 and replace it with an NCP1400. The standby current on the NCP1400 is very low. So you can use this for things that need to run on a battery for months at a time.

hi MarkE,
This is a interesting component which you recommended.
I did spot a seller in China is selling 10 pieces which output 5volts at $3.22USD with free shipment.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/10PCS-NCP1402SN50T1G-ON-IC-REG-BOOST-5V-0-2A-5TSOP-NEW-R5-/291114101279?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43c7c0aa1f (http://www.ebay.com/itm/10PCS-NCP1402SN50T1G-ON-IC-REG-BOOST-5V-0-2A-5TSOP-NEW-R5-/291114101279?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43c7c0aa1f)
Taking cost of other supporting smd components it would be around $1 to diy.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 26, 2014, 01:25:09 PM

I have not as of yet fired up the 1402's but, I think I like the specs better than the 1400's. At least, for what i am attempting to do.

I can't believe the price (cheap) on those sparkfun 1402 breakout boards. It does not really say but do the components shown actually come with the pc board? Or, is it just a board? When I get paid, I will order a few of them. (Thanks Mark E.)

All I am trying to do is have a small circuit that lights several leds and will run a battery down to .3 volts. According to what I think I have read on their site, the sparkfun boards as shipped will not do that. But, as mark suggested, I can manipulate my components onto the board and that would be a great, cheap, and easy way of prototyping.

Farmhand:

Thank you for your explanation of the 1402 hook-up. You just saved me hours of work over here and I appreciate that.

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on July 26, 2014, 01:33:16 PM

Quote from: magpwr on July 26, 2014, 11:37:20 AM
hi MarkE,
This is a interesting component which you recommended.
I did spot a seller in China is selling 10 pieces which output 5volts at $3.22USD with free shipment.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/10PCS-NCP1402SN50T1G-ON-IC-REG-BOOST-5V-0-2A-5TSOP-NEW-R5-/291114101279?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43c7c0aa1f (http://www.ebay.com/itm/10PCS-NCP1402SN50T1G-ON-IC-REG-BOOST-5V-0-2A-5TSOP-NEW-R5-/291114101279?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43c7c0aa1f)
Taking cost of other supporting smd components it would be around $1 to diy.

Yes, the parts are about a dollar in low qty. The big cost is the printed circuit board blanks. Even if you strip all the parts off of the SparkFun board, the $6. for the board is still pretty cheap for a single unit.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on July 26, 2014, 01:38:42 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on July 26, 2014, 01:25:09 PM
I have not as of yet fired up the 1402's but, I think I like the specs better than the 1400's. At least, for what i am attempting to do.

I can't believe the price (cheap) on those sparkfun 1402 breakout boards. It does not really say but do the components shown actually come with the pc board? Or, is it just a board? When I get paid, I will order a few of them. (Thanks Mark E.)

All I am trying to do is have a small circuit that lights several leds and will run a battery down to .3 volts. According to what I think I have read on their site, the sparkfun boards as shipped will not do that. But, as mark suggested, I can manipulate my components onto the board and that would be a great, cheap, and easy way of prototyping.

Farmhand:

Thank you for your explanation of the 1402 hook-up. You just saved me hours of work over here and I appreciate that.

Bill

It depends on what your application is. The 1402's can deliver more power. The 1400's are better suited to very low power and near zero standby. The reason is that the 1400's work more like the solar LED stick lights: They charge up the inductor and then completely dump it. They do this at a fixed frequency, stopping if the voltage rises above the set-point. The 1402's operate in a variable frequency mode, but require that the inductor remain in continuous conduction. For any given input and output voltage, and inductor combination there is a minimum load current. If you go below that minimum then the chip does not regulate.

Yes the SparkFun boards are completely assembled working units.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 26, 2014, 02:30:16 PM

Quote from: MarkE on July 26, 2014, 01:38:42 PM
It depends on what your application is. The 1402's can deliver more power. The 1400's are better suited to very low power and near zero standby. The reason is that the 1400's work more like the solar LED stick lights: They charge up the inductor and then completely dump it. They do this at a fixed frequency, stopping if the voltage rises above the set-point. The 1402's operate in a variable frequency mode, but require that the inductor remain in continuous conduction. For any given input and output voltage, and inductor combination there is a minimum load current. If you go below that minimum then the chip does not regulate.

Yes the SparkFun boards are completely assembled working units.

Mark:

Thanks for the info. Wow, those boards are really cheap then. Maybe I will get some 1400's and try those too. I am trying to make a solar garden light type circuit without the solar cell and photosensor that will light some leds ( or even just one) and take the dead battery waaay down to where it is really dead. From your info, the 1400's sound more like what I need but, I will try both. I want the circuit to be small (I am off to a good start with that SOT-23 package!!) and use a minimum number of components which is why I got those axial inductors. Upon closer inspection, it appears that the sparkfun board uses some type of smd inductor? I didn't even know those were available.

Wow, so much to learn with all of this new stuff coming out. I appreciate the help.

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on July 26, 2014, 02:48:45 PM

3 LEDs in series, lighting brilliantly on less than 0.2 volts, finally go out at around 0.140 V or so:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjgemF5zpeE

Sorry, no hyperefficient SMDs in use, just discrete components and serendipity. Current draw? Well, to get power for practical light at those low voltages of course the current draw must be relatively high. But I think you can see that at 0.2 volts supply from the 1F capacitor the 3 series LEDs are definitely bright enough for some practical uses.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 26, 2014, 04:17:35 PM

Wow, 3 leds illuminated on that low voltage....nice work. Just imagine what you might be able to do with some of these new hyperefficient smds? Very impressive work TK. Those leds were not just barely lit, they were all very bright and I know how hard that is to try to achieve. I am thrilled to be able to light one led on .5 volts!

Great job,

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on July 26, 2014, 05:04:26 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on July 26, 2014, 04:17:35 PM
Wow, 3 leds illuminated on that low voltage....nice work. Just imagine what you might be able to do with some of these new hyperefficient smds? Very impressive work TK. Those leds were not just barely lit, they were all very bright and I know how hard that is to try to achieve. I am thrilled to be able to light one led on .5 volts!

Great job,

Bill

I tested a bunch of transistors in that circuit for "start of oscillation" and "LEDs cut off" voltages, using a photocell to supply the voltage and a flashlight to control the illumination of the PV, and guess which transistor gave the lowest "off" voltage:

The very lowest was an unknown TO-92 plastic transistor marked "1802 N711" that cut out at 0.100 volts and started oscillating at 0.425 volts. But the next best was the venerable old 2n2222a in the metal can, with start at 0.420 V and cut out at 0.102 V !!
I tried all the usual suspects too, BC337-25, MPSA18 etc, fifteen different types in all. The BC337 is next best after the 2n2222a. But of course in other circuits the 2n2222a isn't the best choice.
The worst was 2n3904, with start at 0.491 and cutoff at 0.177.

ETA: I leave the thing sitting on the bench with the PV connected, and the voltage on the cap will slowly rise from the room lights. When it is between the "cutoff" and the "start" voltages the LEDs aren't illuminated because the oscillation hasn't spontaneously started. But if I "flick" the LED leads with a short piece of wire the oscillation starts and the LEDs come on, and drain the cap to the cutoff voltage over the span of several seconds.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 02, 2014, 01:33:59 PM

Can anyone recommend the type of diode I need for my ND1402 circuit? Quoted below from the specs sheet:

'Diode

The diode is the main source of loss in dc-dc converters. The most important parameters which affect their efficiency are the forward voltage drop and reverse recovery time...

...A Schottky diode with the following specs are recommended:

small forward voltage Vf < .3 volts
small reverse leakage current
fast recovery time/switching speed
rated current larger than peak inductor current
I rated > Ipk
reverse voltage larger than output voltage Vreverse > Vout"

I have not been able to located any diodes that come close to some of these specs.

Thanks for the assistance.

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: SeaMonkey on August 02, 2014, 05:40:06 PM

My favorite Schottky Diodes which suit most applications
are either 1N5819 or 1N5822.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 02, 2014, 06:22:07 PM

Quote from: SeaMonkey on August 02, 2014, 05:40:06 PM
My favorite Schottky Diodes which suit most applications
are either 1N5819 or 1N5822.

Thank you, I appreciate the input.

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: magpwr on August 02, 2014, 08:21:12 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on August 02, 2014, 01:33:59 PM
Can anyone recommend the type of diode I need for my ND1402 circuit? Quoted below from the specs sheet:

'Diode

The diode is the main source of loss in dc-dc converters. The most important parameters which affect their efficiency are the forward voltage drop and reverse recovery time...

...A Schottky diode with the following specs are recommended:

small forward voltage Vf < .3 volts
small reverse leakage current
fast recovery time/switching speed
rated current larger than peak inductor current
I rated > Ipk
reverse voltage larger than output voltage Vreverse > Vout"

I have not been able to located any diodes that come close to some of these specs.

Thanks for the assistance.

Bill

hi Pirate88179,

The fastest diode is the one with <1ns recovery time\mentioned as no recovery time in datasheet as sold in the ebay <$2usd-SDT12S60 INFINEON TO-220 Silicon Carbide Schottky Diode (It was the world first and fastest diode released years ago)

I would need to let the truth out.I think we all made a calculation mistake using the typical Schottky Diode eg:1N58XX series for the forever 3volt ou light.
Everyone then started using Schottky diode when we assume it was the best choice.I have this feeling using a fast response diode <50ns may solve the problem which some may argue.
The only details was not provided was the diode model/spec by the original circuit maker if i recall correctly.

I did some research and came across some research documents somewhere stating that Schottky Diode aren't really that fast it comes with reverse recovery time of around 300ns.Normally reverse recovery time will never be found in the datasheet for schottky diode which i don't understand why.

The primary advantage for the Schottky Diode is merely low voltage drop <0.7volts good enough for boost circuit running somewhere below <100khz.
If you take a look at those latest boost circuit running at around 400khz those are using better diodes.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: d3x0r on August 02, 2014, 09:32:36 PM

re fast diodes I like these...
http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?SKU=70061664 100V 100mA, 5ns $0.043 0.4vf

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: SeaMonkey on August 02, 2014, 10:52:00 PM

Quote from: d3x0r
re fast diodes I like these...
http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?SKU=70061664
100V 100mA, 5ns $0.043 0.4vf

Good suggestion. For low power applications the small
signal switching diodes can make a difference.

The BAT41 is very attractively priced and a good bargain.

I've often used ordinary Silicon small signal switching
diodes in low power high frequency applications with
good result; the very common 1N914 or the 1N4148.
(Grazie TinKoa)

The higher powered 1N58xx series do exhibit some
leakage and may not be well suited for high frequency
low power uses but are excellent choices for lower
frequency (less than 100 KHz) circuits such as buck/boost
regulators or desulfators. (Magpwr makes excellent points
above.)

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on August 02, 2014, 11:03:53 PM

1n914, not 1n941.

1n5817 or 1n5711 would be good choices for common Schottkys that are very close to the desired low Vf. However... in the magpwr/conradelectro 2sk170 LVJT that I built, I first used a 1n34a germanium diode because I did not have the specified 1n5711 on hand. I think the germanium worked a little tiny bit better.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 03, 2014, 02:10:32 PM

Quote from: TinselKoala on August 02, 2014, 11:03:53 PM
1n914, not 1n941.

1n5817 or 1n5711 would be good choices for common Schottkys that are very close to the desired low Vf. However... in the magpwr/conradelectro 2sk170 LVJT that I built, I first used a 1n34a germanium diode because I did not have the specified 1n5711 on hand. I think the germanium worked a little tiny bit better.

TK:

Thanks a lot. I just ordered 20 pcs of the 1N5817's ($2.50 from Amazon) Now all I need are the tantalum caps and I will be in good shape.

Thanks also to everyone that responded to my question.

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 03, 2014, 02:44:21 PM

I just wanted to post a couple of photos of my ND1402's. Here is one sitting on a dime. Well, I wanted to build a micro JT so.....

I still can not believe how tiny these things are.

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on August 03, 2014, 04:59:28 PM

Recommended:
http://www.chipquik.com/

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: 4Tesla on August 03, 2014, 09:40:54 PM

Quote from: TinselKoala on July 26, 2014, 02:48:45 PM
3 LEDs in series, lighting brilliantly on less than 0.2 volts, finally go out at around 0.140 V or so:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjgemF5zpeE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjgemF5zpeE)

Sorry, no hyperefficient SMDs in use, just discrete components and serendipity. Current draw? Well, to get power for practical light at those low voltages of course the current draw must be relatively high. But I think you can see that at 0.2 volts supply from the 1F capacitor the 3 series LEDs are definitely bright enough for some practical uses.

Wow! Nice work!

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: 4Tesla on August 03, 2014, 09:48:09 PM

Quote from: MarkE on July 26, 2014, 06:14:50 AM
Here is the schematic, and an alternate variation that is more efficient. The original circuit produces sine waves. The alternate circuit is trapezoidal with fast edges.

Hi all,

I really like those circuits. Anyway to get those down from .7 to .3 volts. I've been looking for a .3v JT without coils. Glad to see TKs JT runs at .3v even though it uses coils.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on August 03, 2014, 10:34:22 PM

Yeah... but it doesn't have any centrifugal-centripetal multispiral dielectric vortices either. That should count for something.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: 4Tesla on August 03, 2014, 11:16:42 PM

Quote from: TinselKoala on August 03, 2014, 10:34:22 PM
Yeah... but it doesn't have any centrifugal-centripetal multispiral dielectric vortices either. That should count for something.

LOL.. I really like your circuit.. thanks for sharing!

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: 4Tesla on August 04, 2014, 01:12:49 AM

I was looking at boost converters and found this one.. very low running voltage of .3v and starting voltage of .5v

TPS61200

http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tps61200.pdf (http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tps61200.pdf)
http://www.newark.com/texas-instruments/tps61200drcr/dc-dc-converter-boost-600ma-son/dp/86W6331?mckv=s0DVoR7Rl (http://www.newark.com/texas-instruments/tps61200drcr/dc-dc-converter-boost-600ma-son/dp/86W6331?mckv=s0DVoR7Rl)
http://www.karlssonrobotics.com/cart/lipower-boost-converter/?gclid=CKrY0Ojq-L8CFQuCaQodWUcAWQ (http://www.karlssonrobotics.com/cart/lipower-boost-converter/?gclid=CKrY0Ojq-L8CFQuCaQodWUcAWQ)

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 04, 2014, 10:05:12 PM

Quote from: 4Tesla on August 04, 2014, 01:12:49 AM
I was looking at boost converters and found this one.. very low running voltage of .3v and starting voltage of .5v

TPS61200

http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tps61200.pdf (http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tps61200.pdf)
http://www.newark.com/texas-instruments/tps61200drcr/dc-dc-converter-boost-600ma-son/dp/86W6331?mckv=s0DVoR7Rl (http://www.newark.com/texas-instruments/tps61200drcr/dc-dc-converter-boost-600ma-son/dp/86W6331?mckv=s0DVoR7Rl)
http://www.karlssonrobotics.com/cart/lipower-boost-converter/?gclid=CKrY0Ojq-L8CFQuCaQodWUcAWQ (http://www.karlssonrobotics.com/cart/lipower-boost-converter/?gclid=CKrY0Ojq-L8CFQuCaQodWUcAWQ)

Nice find. The ND1402's I am using start at .8 volts and run down to .3. This is an improvement in my opinion but, yet another package that is near impossible to solder for guys like me. I am still working on a workaround. I read the link that TK provided for reflowing and I spoke to the electronics guys at work. I showed them a chip and they just shook their heads.

Hackaday had a post a while back on converting a toaster oven to a reflow oven. I might have to look that one up.

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: 4Tesla on August 04, 2014, 11:17:23 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on August 04, 2014, 10:05:12 PM
Nice find. The ND1402's I am using start at .8 volts and run down to .3. This is an improvement in my opinion but, yet another package that is near impossible to solder for guys like me. I am still working on a workaround. I read the link that TK provided for reflowing and I spoke to the electronics guys at work. I showed them a chip and they just shook their heads.

Hackaday had a post a while back on converting a toaster oven to a reflow oven. I might have to look that one up.

Bill

Yep that is the problem with SMT. I may mod this board and try various JT circuits with it.

http://www.karlssonrobotics.com/cart/lipower-boost-converter/?gclid=CKrY0Ojq-L8CFQuCaQodWUcAWQ (http://www.karlssonrobotics.com/cart/lipower-boost-converter/?gclid=CKrY0Ojq-L8CFQuCaQodWUcAWQ)

Edit:

I found more that might be something to look into..
http://cds.linear.com/docs/en/datasheet/3105fa.pdf (http://cds.linear.com/docs/en/datasheet/3105fa.pdf)

These two require step up transformers..
http://cds.linear.com/docs/en/datasheet/31081fb.pdf (http://cds.linear.com/docs/en/datasheet/31081fb.pdf)
http://cds.linear.com/docs/en/datasheet/3109fb.pdf (http://cds.linear.com/docs/en/datasheet/3109fb.pdf)

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on August 05, 2014, 01:27:43 AM

You could probably do it with a clothes iron and solder paste. Dab the paste onto the circuit board pads and set the SMD onto the paste. It should hold it in position. Then set the board down on the upturned iron until the solder paste melts.

Or you could make a hot air gun out of some metal scraps and a blow-dryer.

The chipquick stuff works well to keep several or even many pins of solder fluid long enough to position items during assembly. A temperature-controlled iron with a fine tip and a good magnifier are necessary.

I recently used the chipquick to remove and replace a single NeoPixel from an Adafruit NeoPixelRing assembly. The NeoPixel is a six-pad square thing 0.2 inch per side.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Lakes on August 05, 2014, 04:06:11 AM

Tk is like the McGyver of the electronics world - Next up, how to make a laser out an old ruby and some polished tin plate. :D

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on August 05, 2014, 06:33:49 AM

Quote from: Lakes on August 05, 2014, 04:06:11 AM
Tk is like the McGyver of the electronics world - Next up, how to make a laser out an old ruby and some polished tin plate. :D

No ruby needed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lru6gme1izY

;)

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: 4Tesla on August 05, 2014, 12:26:50 PM

Quote from: TinselKoala on August 05, 2014, 06:33:49 AM
No ruby needed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lru6gme1izY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lru6gme1izY)

;)

Too funny. Very cool! 8)

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 05, 2014, 09:16:49 PM

Quote from: TinselKoala on August 05, 2014, 01:27:43 AM
You could probably do it with a clothes iron and solder paste. Dab the paste onto the circuit board pads and set the SMD onto the paste. It should hold it in position. Then set the board down on the upturned iron until the solder paste melts.

Or you could make a hot air gun out of some metal scraps and a blow-dryer.

The chipquick stuff works well to keep several or even many pins of solder fluid long enough to position items during assembly. A temperature-controlled iron with a fine tip and a good magnifier are necessary.

I recently used the chipquick to remove and replace a single NeoPixel from an Adafruit NeoPixelRing assembly. The NeoPixel is a six-pad square thing 0.2 inch per side.

Excellent suggestions and I appreciate them. Being a newb at this I took my copper strips and cut them to very thin pieces and stuck them on a glass microscope slide. First problem, being only about .030 wide, there was hardly any adhesive to keep them in position. Second problem, using my special Hako super sharp point iron tip and my Bauch and Lomb microscope, when I even touched the tip to one of the legs, the damn chip not only moved out of position, it left my viewing area!!! I quickly figured out that this was NOT the way to go.

I like the iron idea and I actually have one. I could test the settings by melting some solder on a blank board and note the position of the temp control.

Again, I appreciate the help as, evidently, I need all I can get, ha ha.

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on August 05, 2014, 10:18:16 PM

Here's how. Once you have your copper pads laid out you need to "tin" them. Flow some solder onto the pads. Not too much but completely cover the area where the chip will contact the pads, but not too thick, actually as thin as possible. Then place the device down onto the pads and hold it there with pressure from a tweezer. Use the Hako iron to "tack" one of the device's pins or pads to the pre-tinned copper on your board. This then will hold the device in place while you go around with the iron and solder, and flow the remaining pins/pads with solder, finishing up with the one you just tacked down in the beginning. Usually you can just heat the pads and heat will transfer to the pins, especially if a tiny tiny bit of liquid solder is on the iron tip already. Practice makes perfect and soldering takes practice.
I wouldn't use glass for the substrate, it might crack from the applied heat.

ETA: Here's one I did _before_ I found out about ChipQuick. Because I didn't know what I was doing I wound up lifting a few traces from the board, so I replaced them with little bits of #30 wirewrap wire. Ugly, but it does work, and the 2-dollar chip replacement saved me nearly 300 dollars, the price of a new motor controller board. The irony is that this exact same PWM motor controller chip comes in a standard DIP package and there is plenty of room, the designers could have put a socketed DIP chip here instead of the tiny alternative device.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on August 05, 2014, 10:36:07 PM

Solder paste can be bought in syringes or little make-up size cans with screw lids. Personally, I would go with the cheaper syringes, because solder paste has a limited shelf-life.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: SeaMonkey on August 05, 2014, 10:58:20 PM

Curious Inventor has made a video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NN7UGWYmBY) demonstrating
effective techniques using common tools.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: 4Tesla on August 06, 2014, 09:39:56 PM

Quote from: SeaMonkey on August 05, 2014, 10:58:20 PM
Curious Inventor has made a video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NN7UGWYmBY) demonstrating
effective techniques using common tools.

Wow.. that guy is good. I wish soldering was that easy for me.

I've heard of using a hot plate for smt, not sure if it is a good method or not.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 06, 2014, 10:06:17 PM

Quote from: 4Tesla on August 06, 2014, 09:39:56 PM
Wow.. that guy is good. I wish soldering was that easy for me.

I've heard of using a hot plate for smt, not sure if it is a good method or not.

Yes, thanks for posting. I have seen some similar vids but, at least this guy shows how to do it with stuff I already have here.

I will have to watch again near the end he mentioned "super boards? or supra boards? Something like that that can be used as a break out board similar to the proto boards we use with the copper pads .100" apart for "regular" components. I might look into them but fear I need to just make my own board with the iron on masking.

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: 4Tesla on August 07, 2014, 03:09:52 PM

Yes there are adapters which are great for hobbyist and prototyping! This is the brand I see most, but there are others..

https://www.google.com/search?q=SchmartBoard+SMT+to+DIP+Adapters&tbm=shop

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 07, 2014, 09:15:30 PM

Quote from: 4Tesla on August 07, 2014, 03:09:52 PM
Yes there are adapters which are great for hobbyist and prototyping! This is the brand I see most, but there are others..

https://www.google.com/search?q=SchmartBoard+SMT+to+DIP+Adapters&tbm=shop (https://www.google.com/search?q=SchmartBoard+SMT+to+DIP+Adapters&tbm=shop)

Excellent! So, these are a very basic type of breakout board for smt devices then? I will have to figure out which one I need for the 1402 but, after watching that video, I know I can solder to pads that are placed in the right area. Thank you so much for your post...it really helps.

The one thing I can't figure out is why Sparkfun makes that nice board using the 1402 and other components (at a good price too) but their specs say it will take 1 volt and make it 3 volts. That is good and all but the 1402 with the right components will take (once it begins to run at .8 volts) and keep running down to .3 volts and still output 3 volts. I wonder why they did not use the optimum components on their nice little board? Mark E. suggested a while ago that I should get those boards and swap in my components....this is still an option but why didn't they do that to begin with? Different goals I suppose.

Thanks again,

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on August 07, 2014, 10:02:30 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on August 07, 2014, 09:15:30 PM
Excellent! So, these are a very basic type of breakout board for smt devices then? I will have to figure out which one I need for the 1402 but, after watching that video, I know I can solder to pads that are placed in the right area. Thank you so much for your post...it really helps.

The one thing I can't figure out is why Sparkfun makes that nice board using the 1402 and other components (at a good price too) but their specs say it will take 1 volt and make it 3 volts. That is good and all but the 1402 with the right components will take (once it begins to run at .8 volts) and keep running down to .3 volts and still output 3 volts. I wonder why they did not use the optimum components on their nice little board? Mark E. suggested a while ago that I should get those boards and swap in my components....this is still an option but why didn't they do that to begin with? Different goals I suppose.

Thanks again,

Bill

The NCP1402's work fine on the SparkFun boards right down to 0.2V. You can change the components if you have specific goals that the stock components don't realize but others will.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 07, 2014, 10:26:29 PM

Quote from: MarkE on August 07, 2014, 10:02:30 PM
The NCP1402's work fine on the SparkFun boards right down to 0.2V. You can change the components if you have specific goals that the stock components don't realize but others will.

Really? I have read in many places that will only work down to 1 volt, including on their website and videos. Are they just rounding up the starting voltage from the chip? (.8 volts) and not mentioning how low it will still run?

I will get one and test it for myself. If what you say is correct, it will work better than what I am trying to build, and I will have a lot more than $6 in each board.

I must be getting old.

Thanks mark,

Bill

(Pasted from Sparkfun's site)

"Description: The NCP1402 is a 3.3V DC-DC converter. The breakout board will accept voltage inputs between 1 and 3 Volts (such as 1 or 2 AA batteries) and output a constant, low ripple 3.3V output capable of sourcing up to 200 mA."

I checked their data sheet but it is just a copy of the 1402's data sheet I already have. I do not see where it says it will run below 1 volt.

ETA: I just ordered one board and I will test to see how low it will go. If this works, this is cheaper than I could get a blank board in 100 quantity from a supplier! Plus, I won't have to solder those damn smd chips. I will let you all know.

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Farmhand on August 07, 2014, 11:49:21 PM

Well the NCP1400 I have works fine to output it's rated voltage and current down to 1 volt, but it struggles to hold the 3 volts on load
with under 1 volt, the output voltage does not remain rock solid at ie. 3 volts for a 3 volt output rated part, and they certainly
cannot maintain the full voltage and output current with voltages under 0.5 v.

The data sheet describes the best possible components, less than ideal can be used.

Also the frequency while it is fixed does vary over different input voltages as well. If the input voltage is stable the frequency is
stable but the frequency does change with varying input voltage.

The input and output are current limited I think so once the voltage gets low enough and the output voltage and current
demands more input current than the part is rated for then something reduces as it must.

If anyone wants me to test something with the NCP1400 I will try to oblige. :) I can try to max the output and input ect.
ans show it, or tell it, I've done some testing but don;t keep notes, only memory.

Cheers

So it seem that if the chip detects a peak current of 350 mA through the mosfet then it turns the mosfet off for the rest of
that cycle. What that means in practice is that the output voltage will droop if the input cannot keep up due to current limiting.

The NCP1402 part will have a higher peak current limit.

QuoteCurrent Limit
The NCP1400A series utilizes cycle−by−cycle current
limiting as a means of protecting the output switch
MOSFET from overstress and preventing the small value
inductor from saturation. Current limiting is implemented
by monitoring the output MOSFET current build−up during
conduction, and upon sensing an overcurrent conduction
immediately turning off the switch for the duration of the
oscillator cycle.
The voltage across the output MOSFET is monitored and
compared against a reference by the VLX limiter. When the
threshold is reached, a signal is sent to the PWM controller
block to terminate the output switch conduction. The current
limit threshold is typically set at 350 mA.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 08, 2014, 12:10:49 AM

Farmhand:

According to the 1402's data sheet, if you lower the inductance value you can increase the power output, but it also lowers the efficiency, if you increase the inductance value (above the advised 47 uh) it lowers the power output but increases the efficiency. It also says the output cap maintains the output voltage levels so, I wonder if playing with that might help at low v inputs?

I should have listened to Mark weeks ago and I would already have my board and could be experimenting with it.

Bill

PS You are doing some very nice work over on the Hopegirl topic.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 08, 2014, 12:15:26 AM

Quote from: Farmhand on August 07, 2014, 11:49:21 PM

What that means in practice is that the output voltage will droop if the input cannot keep up due to current limiting.

The NCP1402 part will have a higher peak current limit.

..

Yes, but I believe it works the same way with the mosfet in the 1402. I wonder if a much larger F output cap might maintain the output better when the voltage drops really low? Possibly a supercap even?

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Farmhand on August 08, 2014, 01:55:11 AM

Yeah Pirate, it's important to remember that the current limit is the peak conduction current value not the average, so a higher
inductance will lower the peak current value and store more energy, hence the better efficiency, I've erred on the higher inductance
side and so at lower voltages this might be why i cannot get the full output voltage, maybe the higher inductance restricts the
current too much at lower input voltages and so maybe mine isn't restricting the current by way of the chips current limiter maybe
mine is limited by the higher inductance. Scoping the setup under different conditions will tell the story I think.

If we connect a super cap at zero volts to the output with about 1.5 volts input we should see the current limiting in action
because the super cap will look like a short circuit to the chip. Still the chip should take care of business and charge the cap.
I should try some things and take notes. Like try to charge a 25 farad capacitor to 3 volts from 0v with over 1.4 v input.
I should see the voltage wave form from the mosfet drain get chopped to restrict the input current.

I've fried 3 DMG1012 mosfets in my other (own built) circuit because of too much current due to too high of an input voltage and
too much load with no limiting in place. ;) Always things will get fried if we try enough stuff. :)

..

I need to set up a 1402 circuit, with the only difference between it and the 1402 circuit as the inductor, if there is a value that can be used by both I might do that, maybe 33 uH. If not I'll try to get the recommended value even if I must adjust or make them.

For capacitors I just used a 10 uF electrolytic and a 100 uF electrolytic, if I put a smaller better quality cap in parallel with them
that would improve efficiency as well, Parallel capacitors on the output of boost converters is a good idea even identical parallel
caps. That's why I like Tinsels method of making big traces on hand drawn (mostly) PCB's because I can solder more caps on or
indicator LED's ect. I don't think signal traces should be too big though or too small or too long. :-[

..

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on August 08, 2014, 01:59:47 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on August 07, 2014, 10:26:29 PM
Really? I have read in many places that will only work down to 1 volt, including on their website and videos. Are they just rounding up the starting voltage from the chip? (.8 volts) and not mentioning how low it will still run?

I will get one and test it for myself. If what you say is correct, it will work better than what I am trying to build, and I will have a lot more than $6 in each board.

I must be getting old.

Thanks mark,

Bill

(Pasted from Sparkfun's site)

"Description: The NCP1402 is a 3.3V DC-DC converter. The breakout board will accept voltage inputs between 1 and 3 Volts (such as 1 or 2 AA batteries) and output a constant, low ripple 3.3V output capable of sourcing up to 200 mA."

I checked their data sheet but it is just a copy of the 1402's data sheet I already have. I do not see where it says it will run below 1 volt.

ETA: I just ordered one board and I will test to see how low it will go. If this works, this is cheaper than I could get a blank board in 100 quantity from a supplier! Plus, I won't have to solder those damn smd chips. I will let you all know.

Bill

What happens is that the load current that the board can support and still regulate drops rapidly below 0.9V input. This is due to limitations of the NCP1402 and the inductor.

The 3.3V output board regulates at 3.29V down to:

0.55V input with a 1K load, 3.3mA
0.42V input with a 2K load, 1.7mA
0.30V input with a 4.7K load, 0.70mA

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Farmhand on August 08, 2014, 02:16:12 AM

Quote from: MarkE on August 08, 2014, 01:59:47 AM
What happens is that the load current that the board can support and still regulate drops rapidly below 0.9V input. This is due to limitations of the NCP1402 and the inductor.

The 3.3V output board regulates at 3.29V down to:

0.55V input with a 1K load, 3.3mA
0.42V input with a 2K load, 1.7mA
0.30V input with a 4.7K load, 0.70mA

Cool info, yes I'm working with a load of three five mm bright white LED's which draws about 23 mA at 3 volts output. I can't
remember if I measured the input, I need to buy some good CSRs in different watt values and small R values.

I've got super caps in .22F x 5.5 volt - 1.5 F x 5.5 volt - 25 F x 2.7 volt - and 140 F x 2.5 volt. My 1402 Parts are 5 volt output
parts and my 1400 parts are 3 volt parts.

How does the circuit deal with a 3 volt output with a 4 volt input ? go to Buck (down) converter ?

Thanks Mark, your a big help, I could make a list of all the guys that have given me real help on these forums, it's not many and
you all don;t get along or agree on everything, but have one common trait, lots of experience and learned knowledge as well
as the will to help out. Much appreciated !

..

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on August 08, 2014, 02:40:08 AM

Quote from: Farmhand on August 08, 2014, 02:16:12 AM
Cool info, yes I'm working with a load of three five mm bright white LED's which draws about 23 mA at 3 volts output. I can't
remember if I measured the input, I need to buy some good CSRs in different watt values and small R values.

I've got super caps in .22F x 5.5 volt - 1.5 F x 5.5 volt - 25 F x 2.7 volt - and 140 F x 2.5 volt. My 1402 Parts are 5 volt output
parts and my 1400 parts are 3 volt parts.

How does the circuit deal with a 3 volt output with a 4 volt input ? go to Buck (down) converter ?

Thanks Mark, your a big help, I could make a list of all the guys that have given me real help on these forums, it's not many and
you all don;t get along or agree on everything, but have one common trait, lots of experience and learned knowledge as well
as the will to help out. Much appreciated !

..

The NCP1400 and NCP1402 are boost devices. They cannot go down in voltage. They are used with a flyback diode that passes the input voltage to the output via the filter inductor if the device is not switching.

There are much more expensive ICs out there that buck or boost as needed.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Farmhand on August 08, 2014, 05:33:04 AM

Pirate, reading the data sheet the "soft start" function should stay in operation when we connect a super cap at 0v to the output,
it should restrict the duty of the input until the output voltage reaches 1.5 volts then go into full power mode if it can. I'll try it with
a 1.5 Farad 5.5v cap, to try it with a 2.7 volt cap with the 3 volt output I'll need to use a diode in series with the output to the cap to
utilize the voltage drop across the diode to get a full voltage of less than 2.7 volts so I'll need at least 0.3 volts drop and 1 Amp
diode. FR302 might work.

I'll try to get a shot of the output voltage ripple with my single 100 uF electrolytic capacitor and the load current

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: electrospark on August 08, 2014, 11:05:15 AM

I didn't read the 1110 pages so somebody probably already said that, but just to make sure,

You can try to wind some magnet wire around a pen or any air core until you get a resistance of 1K ohm.
I am not sure if it will work but i heard somewhere that it was quit effective!

Regards.

electrospark

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 08, 2014, 08:17:59 PM

Mark:

I agree with Farmhand. Thank you very much for sharing your knowledge and information.

Farmhand:

The only reason I was thinking supercaps on the output was my experience a few years ago with my first earth battery experiments. (probably 5 or 6 years ago now...time flies) In the early days, I could not even light 1 led, for some reason, I decided to stick a supercap on there not even really knowing what they were and...suddenly, I could light an led to full brightness. Later, I used two 10F supercaps in parallel and could light multiple leds and after that...a 650 F cap allowed me to light 100 then 200, etc up to 400 leds.

After reading the pdf on the 1402 it just occurred to me to possibly try a single supercap on the output. I am not sure what sparkfun uses here as I have not really found any documentation on their board, only the specs on the 1402. At least their board will get me going on this project and I can use that as a starting platform (Thanks again Mark) Possibly, I can research the components they use and find their values.

My goal is simple...be able to use a "dead" battery and keep the lights on down as low as possible...lower than I have been able to using hand wound toroids. (which is down to about .6 to .7 volts) I wanted something easier to reproduce in quantities at an affordable price.

I will follow your work on this and post my findings once I get that 1402 board. Meanwhile, if you need any 10 uf caps for the input, or any axial inductors at 47 uh, let me know and I will send you some. I have about 10 of each here based on the 1402 suggested components. Actually, I have 20 of those inductors.

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on August 09, 2014, 01:30:42 AM

Bill, it is my pleasure to help.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 13, 2014, 08:50:43 PM

OK, so I received my 1402 board from Sparkfun. Man, the entire board can fit on a dime! But, that is good.

What is bad is that I wired it up to an AA bat. for a brief test. Not only did it not light my led, the entire board got really hot within seconds. (and we had a bit of smoke) So, I suppose I had it wired wrong.

Looking at my photo, (From Sparkfun showing the reverse side of the board) I had my 1.5 volt (+) input wire going to the hole marked 1-3 v in. I put the battery - to the "ground" hole (probably my big mistake) and had the led leads going into the holes marked "3.3v out". I tried reversing the polarity of the leds leads but had the same thing happen.

Could they not have had it marked input + and then - and then output + and then minus? There are no polarity markings on the board anywhere and, looking at the schematic for the board, everything shows a common ground which I ASSUMED was the - side of my input battery.

Does anyone have any good answers to what I have done wrong? I figure if I have burned out anything it is the 1402 chip and I have 10 more of them. I don't even mind getting another board but not until I know how it is supposed to be wired up.

I used to think I was pretty intelligent but, the more I learn, and the more I try to do, the more I realize that I do not know. This is good but, it is frustrating as this hook-up should be very, very simple right?

I would appreciate any input here.

Thank you all in advance.

Bill

PS It is a really nice, tiny board that should allow the creation of some small but bright lighting devices.

ETA: Should I have placed one lead of the led (+) to the 3v output and the - led lead to the common ground possibly?

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 13, 2014, 10:35:22 PM

Here is a shot of the schematic if it helps.

I am still lost over here.

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Farmhand on August 13, 2014, 11:00:45 PM

It should have been a simple set up as you say, I've modified the board picture to show orange input positive black negative and
Yellow output positive. That circuit drawing shows the pins in a mirror image to the data sheet and the part I think, not sure.

Did you have a load connected ? Maybe the 1402 part needs a constant load, on my 1401 board I put a 3 mm indicator LED with
a 1K resistor is series with it. A tiny load but it's something, not that the 1401 part needs a load and I don;t know if the 1402 part
needs one either.

Maybe the board or one of the parts was defective. If you can't see any reason for you ruining it (if it is ruined) then email them
and they might send you a new one "tested maybe".

..

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on August 13, 2014, 11:06:49 PM

Quote from: Farmhand on August 13, 2014, 11:00:45 PM
It should have been a simple set up as you say, I've modified the board picture to show orange input positive black negative and
Yellow output positive. That circuit drawing shows the pins in a mirror image to the data sheet and the part I think, not sure.

Did you have a load connected ? Maybe the 1402 part needs a constant load, on my 1401 board I put a 3 mm indicator LED with
a 1K resistor is series with it. A tiny load but it's something, not that the 1401 part needs a load and I don;t know if the 1402 part
needs one either.

Maybe the board or one of the parts was defective. If you can't see any reason for you ruining it (if it is ruined) then email them
and they might send you a new one "tested maybe".

..

That wiring is correct. If things got hot I suspect you had the ground and 1.5V reversed. The NCP1402 is probably dead. The diode should be OK.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 13, 2014, 11:41:40 PM

Farmhand:

Thank you very much for your reply. In my edit on my post after I had thought a bit about it, and now I see from your drawings, that I should have left one of the holes open, and used the common ground for the - of my led. I did not do that. (Why do they have two holes for the 3v out then?) My load was a regular 5mm led so probably about 25mA's or thereabouts. The circuit heated up no matter how I had the led leads in the two 3 v output holes. I really appreciate your post so now, if I fried that chip I can replace it, or if the board is bad, I will get another to test, but at least I now know how it is supposed to be connected. Thank you very much again Sir.

Bill

Mark:

No, my polarities on my input matches Farmhand's drawing. I double checked to be sure as, you know, shit happens. Maybe there is a short in the board or maybe having the diode (led) reversed caused this although I do not see how as it heated up either way I hooked up the led. Or, possibly, like Farmhand asked, my single led load was far too small? This chip is supposed to handle 200 mA's and I should have only been drawing 25 or so. The led did not even flash or anything but, I will check to see if it is fried. They usually have a very distinct smell when they fry. (ask me how I know.. ha ha)

Thanks again fellows, I will keep you posted.

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 01, 2014, 09:56:02 PM

Well, I wired up that tiny board this weekend and....it works!!!!!

Thank you Farmhand, I wired it as you suggested and everything is fine. I guess whatever was wrong causing all of that heat did not fry anything. (Amazing)
I went ahead and soldered everything instead of just sticking the wires in for a test, which probably caused a short somehow.

Running a single super bright 5mm LED and it is very, very (blinding) bright. I can't really test it now but the amp draw should be about 25 mA's or thereabouts. It will be cool to see how long, and how low this circuit will go. I will just have to remember to leave the circuit on when it approaches .8 volts or it probably will not turn on again. If this gets anywhere near .3 volts with a bit of light I will be totally thrilled.

Will keep you all posted.

Farmhand, thanks again for explaining the hook-up to me on this tiny board.

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: drodenbe on September 28, 2014, 10:31:00 AM

Hi every one! I am a newbie to posting stuff but not to electronics. I just wanted to share my findings I have been working on for several years and just recently was successful in a joule thief design that will run a LED brightly and charge the battery at same time. I am currently running on a crystal battery I made and it too is a new design quite successful so far. So I am posting my circuit and feel free to try if you want. I also included the formula for the crystal battery if interested. For more info on the battery go to the crystal battery forum under Fausto. I have posted how to make it. It is different than others. So that being said, here is the post. I also included a jpg of the coils I am using although it works with standard joule thief cores. It also works with air core as well. Thanks.

David

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: drodenbe on September 28, 2014, 10:36:35 AM

Sorry, forgot to label the capret. It is a 470 uf capacitor at above 25 volts. Thanks again.

David

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Bob Smith on September 28, 2014, 01:29:49 PM

Nice to see you back, Drodenbe.
Thanks for sharing this. I was wondering when someone was going to come up with a use for these coils and cores. There are many off the shelf parts that can be adapted for effective use in systems - we just have to have eyes to see their potential, as you did.
Bob

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 28, 2014, 01:44:24 PM

Quote from: drodenbe on September 28, 2014, 10:31:00 AM
Hi every one! I am a newbie to posting stuff but not to electronics. I just wanted to share my findings I have been working on for several years and just recently was successful in a joule thief design that will run a LED brightly and charge the battery at same time. I am currently running on a crystal battery I made and it too is a new design quite successful so far. So I am posting my circuit and feel free to try if you want. I also included the formula for the crystal battery if interested. For more info on the battery go to the crystal battery forum under Fausto. I have posted how to make it. It is different than others. So that being said, here is the post. I also included a jpg of the coils I am using although it works with standard joule thief cores. It also works with air core as well. Thanks.

David

Nice work. I especially like your idea of sealing with wax. Easily obtained, easy to work with and it seals. Eventually, you might want to move on to something more permanent like the clear epoxy or resins being discussed in the other topic but, for testing and prototyping, your wax idea is excellent I think.

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: drodenbe on September 28, 2014, 03:16:34 PM

Good to be back. Surprised anyone remembered me! Went through a divorce, lost all my stuff! Relocated in a different city and started over. Retired and on limited funds. It is slow but I am getting there! No big deal. Been here, done this before, won't do it again!!!! 32 years first time, 2 years second. Not sure what I was thinking!!!

I used the wax because I had some old candles around and that is all I could afford at the time. Next month will be my recovery month. I usually use epoxy resin. I know this is not the place to discuss the cells and I won't do it again and apologize. But!!!! Look at this video and talk to me about it in the crystal cell forum if you want. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7y8ek9aASQ.

http://www.overunity.com/13061/crystal-cell-research/new/#new

David

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: drodenbe on September 28, 2014, 03:29:56 PM

One other thing about the joule thief. The use of the other jt coil in series with the supply really makes a difference whether you charge or discharge the supply. I didn't use a capacitor across the supply side because I was trying to get a inductive kickback into the battery and this seams to work. The addition of the capret just made the process better. I was surprised to be able to run the led at the same time. I have worked on this for some time and could not even get the circuit to last any longer than 1 hour before it started to discharge the battery, without the LED. I even tried a super cap across the input but it just delayed the action. But this formation of components seams to work quite well. I have had the circuit running for weeks and not discharge the battery. I even wound a jt coil with out a core of 60t and 20t around the outside of the crystal battery and it still charged the battery. It was not as efficient but it still charged it. Just took longer!
I got the idea for the capret when I was using these little wonders to keep various batteries charged while running a jumbo led. Have had about 8 different style batteries in various combinations running for over a month and the batteries have not gone down. I even hooked one up to an old discarded 6v drycell that was below 6 volts and it brought it up to 5.93 volts and has been there for a month. So why not try to use it in a joule thief circuit. That is when I came up with this configuration and surprise, surprise, surprise! As Gomer Pyle once said!

Well try it and see if you like it! Ha Ha!

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: drodenbe on October 01, 2014, 12:59:52 PM

Hi again. Here with some results of the above circuit I posted earlier. I have been running this for over 24 hours on a crystal cell. The cell unloaded was .785 volts. So I guess one could say that the graph speaks for its self! The Led is bright and the voltage continues to rise! The voltage is over the resting voltage of the cell! I do not have any capacitor across the input. It is just the raw crystal cell and the joule thief. I have tried all kinds of cells. Ni cads etc all have been similar results. So, make one for your self and see for your self! Thanks.

David

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: drodenbe on October 01, 2014, 06:10:33 PM

Well here is the latest graph! Still going up! LED Bright! It now reads 1.138 volts which is higher than when I last saved the graph!

For those who care. Feel like I am talking to my self! Lol! Later.

David

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: drodenbe on October 01, 2014, 07:17:37 PM

Ok guys! Here is my last post on the above circuit. I think the graph speaks for its self. Won't waste any more bandwidth! Later.

David

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 01, 2014, 08:49:19 PM

Quote from: drodenbe on October 01, 2014, 06:10:33 PM
Well here is the latest graph! Still going up! LED Bright! It now reads 1.138 volts which is higher than when I last saved the graph!

For those who care. Feel like I am talking to my self! Lol! Later.

David

David:

If you notice at the bottom of your posted photos, it shows how many folks have viewed it. This one, at this time, says 42. There are a lot of lurkers here that enjoy reading posts but, remain silent if they have nothing to add or have relevant questions. This is actually a good thing as you did not have people posting "Fake!", or calling you names as sometimes happens on forums such as this one.

I think you are doing great work here and I, for one, appreciate your sharing it with us. I look forward to see where your cell tops out at, and how long it remains there, and when/if it drops off. Please keep us posted and do not be disappointed in the lack of posts in response to your posted work. As you may know, I am a big JT fan and I love to see them employed in unusual ways, which I believe, you have done here. Carry on and, the best of luck to you.

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: drodenbe on October 02, 2014, 09:19:32 AM

Bill.

Thanks for your input. Yes I have noticed that people are looking at my work. My comment was not intended to be negative. Not being involved with any group for a while I noticed some have dried up along with the interest. I was just testing the waters to see if I was in a dead group so to speak and was talking to my self! I also did not want to jump into a forum and disrupt the normal conversations between seasoned members. So with that being said I will continue to share the results. Just in the past month I made this discovery so I am very surprised with the results. Have spent many hours looking at the 4th and 5th digit to the right of the decimal point on my meter only to see it falling. Usually I got some kind of a warm feeling if it got past the first hour. But after an hour or so it went down the tubes if you know what I mean!

I just recently started to experiment again after a long rest from the same old thing. I have always been fascinated with the JT. I discovered the positive effects with the inductor in series with the battery and noticed the voltage was staying put so to speak which really got me going. At the same time I was playing around with the capret and running a LED on different batteries and noticed that the led was lit for months and the battery stayed charged! So there fore I incorporated both in the JT. I used another jt coil configuration and as you can see connected the capret into the circuit. So this is the results. Blind pig finding an acorn!

I have included the final graph of the last run. I am including a test I just started on an old crystal cell that was not very successful just to see what would happen. The voltage of this cell was about .5 volts. Not real good! But as you can see it is bring it out of the gutter and is charging the darn thing! Will let run and post the results. I have limited space, money and equipment. Will let it run for a day or so then on to another cell. Will show test results on regular ni cad batteries if you want.

David

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: drodenbe on October 02, 2014, 09:29:18 AM

Me again!

If you noticed by the last graph it really looks rough! With all the fluctuations and all, but as it runs and auto adjusts the scale this will smooth out and you won't be able to see the detail unless you zoom in on an area. But the important thing is the upward trend. The LED is not lit yet but will when the voltage gets higher. The scope peak to peak reading is around 1.5 volts, so when it gets to 2 and above, it should light. Never tried this before with this circuit so this is my thoughts at this time. As we all know time will tell. However I believe that if this voltage comes up to the point of lighting the LED and continues to charge I will have a very warm feeling that this is a success!!!!

About the first graph I stopped it last night and forgot to save the graph. My mistake! It had leveled off to the 1.160 voltage and was running constant for while. It may have gone up more or less but I feel it was a good test anyway. Thanks again.

David

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: drodenbe on October 02, 2014, 01:19:42 PM

Well here is a new update on my latest run on an old junk crystal cell that was a failure compared to the ones I make now. I am making cells with aluminum and copper that are producing over 1.volt. Usually around 1.25 volts at about 150ma. This one was a test of a different mix and idea. Was around .46 to .5 volts at about 10ma. But as you can see by the graph the cell is coming to life. The LED just came on a little while ago. Getting around 1.5 volts Peak to Peak on collector. Also one other thing I wanted to say is that the .0047 uf cap across the collector JT coil is not necessary to get what you see here. I am not using any cap across the coil. I did notice when I was designing the circuit, before I used the capret, that it did make a small difference. At that time I wanted all I could get. Also I found that the charging effect is enhanced if you do not have a resistor in series with LED. Strange isn't it! I put the variable resistor in series because it gave me a easy way to change things during design. I usually make my circuits with small two terminal pc mount connectors. In the capacitor position and anywhere I would change something. Keeps me from messing up the pc board, due to unsoldering, soldering in components during design. So I have a experimenters board so to speak. Terminals for the joule thief coil. Terminals for the base capacitor, terminals for the base variable resistor, terminals for the transistor, terminals for input voltage and a possible capacitor across the input voltage. So Basically I have a board with terminals!!! Ha! Ha! How many times have you popped a transistor or wanted to change the pot or cap. Works really great for design. Then I make a final board when finished. Well, Ok. Later

David

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: NickZ on October 02, 2014, 02:21:03 PM

You might want to check out the Lasersaber site:
http://laserhacker.com/

He's coming up with new stuff all the time.

NickZ

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on October 15, 2014, 02:13:13 AM

@Pirate:
Take a look at this. I like the way the little device is mounted right to the LED. Very very simple. Somebody should go ahead and manufacture LEDs with the circuit and inductor built right in.

http://www.muzique.com/news/not-a-joule-thief/

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 15, 2014, 10:32:26 PM

Quote from: TinselKoala on October 15, 2014, 02:13:13 AM
@Pirate:
Take a look at this. I like the way the little device is mounted right to the LED. Very very simple. Somebody should go ahead and manufacture LEDs with the circuit and inductor built right in.

http://www.muzique.com/news/not-a-joule-thief/ (http://www.muzique.com/news/not-a-joule-thief/)

Thanks TK. I think I might even have some of those chips but....I am still working with the NCP 1402 which will switch down to .3 volts and output a low ripple 3.3 volts. I went through a bunch of those newer style chips and my hat is off to that guy for being able to solder it like he did.

I like your idea and the led folks should pay attention, although the Chinese are probably already doing this. It would be great to spend a few cents more and buy an led, or leds, that already have the modern day JT type circuit "built in". I do wonder, however, what would the problems be if using say 3 of them in series? Would each led "circuit" work independently or would there be a problem in the sync between all of the different occilations from the 3 different inductors?

To me, this is really cool stuff that is coming out now about the JT style circuits. These new chips give us even more areas to explore.

Thank you for posting this and showing me.

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on October 15, 2014, 10:39:16 PM

Bill you would not want to put them in series. They would have a very hard time starting up. These sorts of things should be connected in parallel.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 15, 2014, 11:16:48 PM

Quote from: MarkE on October 15, 2014, 10:39:16 PM
Bill you would not want to put them in series. They would have a very hard time starting up. These sorts of things should be connected in parallel.

Thanks Mark. So, if connected in parallel then the 3 oscillations do not have to in sync? I ran into this a few years ago when putting 2 Fuji JT circuits together in parallel. On the am radio, you could hear 2 different oscillations going on...one was climbing up while the other was falling...and so on. I guess I did not have synced resonance which is why I did not achieve overunity like those QEG folks, ha ha.

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on October 16, 2014, 02:22:57 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on October 15, 2014, 11:16:48 PM
Thanks Mark. So, if connected in parallel then the 3 oscillations do not have to in sync? I ran into this a few years ago when putting 2 Fuji JT circuits together in parallel. On the am radio, you could hear 2 different oscillations going on...one was climbing up while the other was falling...and so on. I guess I did not have synced resonance which is why I did not achieve overunity like those QEG folks, ha ha.

Bill

No they don't need to sync. Ideally, they would be offset 1/3 of a cycle from each other. Since they are not, a capacitor can smooth things out.

You did not have enough people humming properly to achieve resonance. For just $15,000 donations for my wife and I to fly to Hawaii first class I can advise you on how to get better resonance.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Dave45 on October 17, 2014, 09:27:25 AM

Works, the feedback winding will run both transistors.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Dave45 on October 17, 2014, 09:40:44 AM

Works

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on October 17, 2014, 02:06:30 PM

May have to include base limiter resistors to adjust current draw. Ideally circuit components need to be matched, i.e. inductors / resistors.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Dave45 on October 17, 2014, 06:46:24 PM

Xee2 posted this schematic for a limited self runner, it only charges one side of the cap.
I finished it, havent tested it yet,,,,soon.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on October 17, 2014, 07:47:48 PM

Dave, Neither circuit charges the capacitor from the oscillator portion. Both charge the capacitor from the battery. There is no such thing as charging one side of a capacitor anymore than it is possible to stretch one side of an extension spring. Xee2's circuit draws power from the capacitor through the transformer secondary and the transistor when the transistor is on. When the transistor turns off, energy stored in the transformer recirculates through the LED. Your dual circuit just puts two of Xee2's circuits in parallel, where one switches the low side like Xee2's, and the other switches the high side.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Dave45 on October 17, 2014, 08:37:51 PM

Hey Mark
I hope your wrong my friend, I see things a little differently.
I'll build it tomorrow.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on October 17, 2014, 08:49:29 PM

Dave, it is basic theory that has been tested countless times. A test that you can do is to add switches so that you can run with just the NPN, just the PNP, or both the NPN and PNP sides of your device. You should find that the run down time is faster with the PNP than the NPN due to a lower efficiency. You should find that with both of them, the run down time is a bit less than half the run down time with the NPN side alone.

If you have an oscilloscope and a low inductance current sense resistor, then you can monitor the capacitor current by placing the current sense resistor in series between the negative side of the capacitor and the est of the circuit. The scope probe ground clip goes to the low side of the capacitor. With either just the NPN or PNP side running you will see a saw tooth current drawn from the capacitor. With both running, because they are not synchronized, you will see two asynchronous sawtooth waveforms that move in time relative to one another.

The modification that you have made to the current flow when the transistor is on is wrong. Positive convention current flows from the voltage source: battery or capacitor through the coil and through the transistor. That builds up energy in the magnetic field in and around the transformer. When the transistor turns off, energy stored in that field causes the voltage across the inductor to flyback until the LED provides a path for the current. Energy in the stored winding inductance then discharges through the LED.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Dave45 on October 17, 2014, 08:55:58 PM

I have built both pnp and npn, actually Iv built many combinations in the last few days.
The pnp runs the led brighter, Iv used many different cores as well, toroid, split core from a flyback, small transformers.
No self runner yet, maybe tomorrow.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on October 17, 2014, 09:30:35 PM

Only charges one side of the cap!

I thought I'd heard pretty much every claim about an electronic circuit imaginable, but that is the first time I've ever heard anyone claim that.

I invite Dave to perform a demonstration showing that only one side of a capacitor is charged, by any means. Certainly one can tie one side of a capacitor to Earth ground, and then charge up the capacitor. WRT ground, the side connected to the Earth will of course read zero voltage. Does this mean it isn't charged? Or does it merely mean you are using the wrong reference, because of your flawed understanding of charge and electrical current?

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on October 17, 2014, 11:56:23 PM

Quote from: TinselKoala on October 17, 2014, 09:30:35 PM
Only charges one side of the cap!

I thought I'd heard pretty much every claim about an electronic circuit imaginable, but that is the first time I've ever heard anyone claim that.

I invite Dave to perform a demonstration showing that only one side of a capacitor is charged, by any means. Certainly one can tie one side of a capacitor to Earth ground, and then charge up the capacitor. WRT ground, the side connected to the Earth will of course read zero voltage. Does this mean it isn't charged? Or does it merely mean you are using the wrong reference, because of your flawed understanding of charge and electrical current?

Dave is civil and Dave is doing experiments to test his ideas. I think that deserves civility back.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on October 18, 2014, 01:11:43 AM

Quote from: MarkE on October 17, 2014, 11:56:23 PM
Dave is civil and Dave is doing experiments to test his ideas. I think that deserves civility back.

I think that ridiculous claims made without support deserve whatever response they might engender. But perhaps you can tell me how asking for a demonstration of a claim is somehow "uncivil". Dave has shown his great propensity to misinterpret his "experiments" in the light of his own preconceived notions, which do not jibe with conventional understanding, and which are leading him astray. This has been pointed out to him, civilly and uncivilly, several times before and anyone can look back in the thread to see how he responds.
An experiment is done to test an hypothesis. A demonstration is done to illustrate a point. We are seeing demonstrations, not experiments, from Dave, and he is interpreting them according to his notions, not according to what the data reveal.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Dave45 on October 18, 2014, 08:13:05 AM

I make no claims as fact,, just my view.
The battery charges the cap but when the oscillator kicks in the bemf from the collapsing magnetic field charges the pos side of the cap and also depletes the neg side.
I am testing and will post results.
I dont really care if Im right or wrong, I want to find the answer.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on October 18, 2014, 09:09:43 AM

Quote from: TinselKoala on October 18, 2014, 01:11:43 AM
I think that ridiculous claims made without support deserve whatever response they might engender. But perhaps you can tell me how asking for a demonstration of a claim is somehow "uncivil". Dave has shown his great propensity to misinterpret his "experiments" in the light of his own preconceived notions, which do not jibe with conventional understanding, and which are leading him astray. This has been pointed out to him, civilly and uncivilly, several times before and anyone can look back in the thread to see how he responds.
An experiment is done to test an hypothesis. A demonstration is done to illustrate a point. We are seeing demonstrations, not experiments, from Dave, and he is interpreting them according to his notions, not according to what the data reveal.

I felt that jumping down Dave's throat about the one sided capacitor charging gaffe was not necessary. That's JMO.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on October 18, 2014, 09:28:37 AM

Quote from: Dave45 on October 18, 2014, 08:13:05 AM
I make no claims as fact,, just my view.
The battery charges the cap but when the oscillator kicks in the bemf from the collapsing magnetic field charges the pos side of the cap and also depletes the neg side.
I am testing and will post results.
I dont really care if Im right or wrong, I want to find the answer.

Dave it's god that you want to find the right answer.

When the transistor is on the input power source: capacitor alone or in parallel with the battery, builds the magnetic field until either the transistor turns off or the current builds up to the point that the I*R drop across the coil matches the available voltage and the current builds no further. When the transistor switches off that stored energy causes voltage to build in reverse across the coil. Where the secondary voltage was positive from top to bottom, as the transistor turns off the voltage on the bottom of the secondary swings positive with respect to the top of the coil. When the voltage gets positive enough, the LED forward biases. This closes the current loop and the energy stored in the magnetic field surrounding the transformer discharges through the LED. Current stops flowing from the capacitor, capacitor/battery.

In order to get the energy to recharge the capacitor or battery, you have two basic choices: Wind a third winding on the core and connect that in series with a Schottky diode in the same orientation as the LED. Connect the cathode of the diode to the positive rail of the circuit and the free end of the coil to the negative rail. Where the sum of the supply voltage plus the Schottky diode forward drop is less than the forward drop of the LED, the modified circuit recharges the capacitor, or capacitor/battery combination each cycle. The other alternative is to arrange a second transistor switch in series with the top of the secondary, and connect a Schottky with the cathode on that top secondary connection and the Schottky diode anode to the negative rail. When the transistors turn off the bottom of the secondary jumps up as before until the LED conducts, while the top of the secondary jumps down until the Schottky diode conducts. Now the capacitor, or capacitor/battery combination complete the circuit and get recharged a bit each cycle. You will also notice that the magnetizing current discharges faster than before. Consequently the LED does not glow as brightly.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Dave45 on October 18, 2014, 10:33:46 AM

QuoteDave it's god that you want to find the right answer.

There is only One God and thats with a capital G.
The rest were created and yes I hope and pray He gives us the answer.
dave

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: NickZ on October 18, 2014, 11:29:54 AM

In the Joule Ringer circuit, the Hv output that can light even a 50 to 75 watt incandescent bulb, is also going back to the battery positive or to the negative rail.
But, this does not help to obtain a self runner, cap or no cap.

The 10000uf cap on the previously mentioned circuit is what is making it look like a self runner, but it will still drain down in time, as it's not being charge at the same rate as is being discharged, once the battery is removed.
After all these years, and experiment with the JT circuit, not one person has made an actual self runner. One that is STILL Running on its own power, years later...
Hopefully this will change, soon.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Dave45 on October 18, 2014, 01:28:48 PM

I concede, does not self run :(

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Dave45 on October 19, 2014, 07:40:16 AM

So yesterday I decided to give the little circuit some extra juice, since it didnt want to self run ;D
I applied 12v and it blew the transistor into a couple of pieces and fried the large led,,,,,then it hit me I had to reverse the large diodes to get them to light with the low voltage circuit, this means the bemf wasnt charging the cap, the led's were in blocking mode.
Im going to get more led's from the shack and give it another go.
Persist to Persevere.

dave

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Dave45 on October 19, 2014, 10:58:37 AM

I can see the logic behind the npn setup
but the pnp setup ?

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Dave45 on October 19, 2014, 10:59:48 AM

In the pnp setup why does the bemf run through the diode at all.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on October 19, 2014, 05:51:01 PM

Quote from: Dave45 on October 19, 2014, 10:58:37 AM
I can see the logic behind the npn setup
but the pnp setup ?

They work exactly the same way: In each positive convention current flows clockwise around the loop formed by the power source, the transistor and the coil when the transistor conducts, and counter clockwise through the loop formed by the transformer secondary and the LED when the transistor turns off. Positive conention current flows from top to bottom through the transformer secondary in all four cases. When the transistor turns-off, the coil voltage changes in the direction that resists change in current: NPN low side switch, the coil voltage increases above the power supply positive terminal voltage. In the PNP high side switch case: The coil voltage decreases below the power supply negative terminal voltage.

Note that the orientation of the LED is always up. The LED is always oriented so that it is reverse biased when the associated transistor is on, and the LED always connects to the opposite power supply terminal as the transistor.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on October 19, 2014, 06:30:02 PM

Quote from: Dave45 on October 18, 2014, 10:33:46 AM
There is only One God and thats with a capital G.
The rest were created and yes I hope and pray He gives us the answer.
dave

Missing 'o'.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Dave45 on October 20, 2014, 09:05:37 AM

In the pnp setup I dont understand why it even goes through the led, it should run straight to ground.
Unless the coil is actually pulling, sucking.
And if it does pull,,,,well thats interesting.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on October 20, 2014, 09:40:01 AM

Quote from: Dave45 on October 20, 2014, 09:05:37 AM
In the pnp setup I dont understand why it even goes through the led, it should run straight to ground.
Unless the coil is actually pulling, sucking.
And if it does pull,,,,well thats interesting.

Dave, referring to the drawings: When the PNP transistor conducts, current builds up in the transformer secondary, lifting the coil voltage above the negative rail. As the transistor turns off the inductor voltage changes in such a way as to try and maintain the current. The inductor drives the voltage at the transistor collector down until the LED forward biases enough to carry the current. The voltage is therefore below the bottom rail by the LED forward drop. This is just the complement of what happens with the NPN. There the collector voltage flies back above the top rail by the LED forward voltage.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: tinman on October 20, 2014, 10:14:18 AM

Quote from: Dave45 on October 20, 2014, 09:05:37 AM
In the pnp setup I dont understand why it even goes through the led, it should run straight to ground.
Unless the coil is actually pulling, sucking.
And if it does pull,,,,well thats interesting.

All you have to remember is-the current in the inductor always flows in the same direction,but the voltage reverses polarity when the transistor becomes open circuit(switches off)

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Dave45 on October 22, 2014, 04:58:13 PM

I sure hate to conform

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Dave45 on October 22, 2014, 09:28:15 PM

I guess this would be considered a shorted coil, the magnetic field would never collapse.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on October 22, 2014, 10:19:05 PM

Quote from: Dave45 on October 22, 2014, 09:28:15 PM
I guess this would be considered a shorted coil, the magnetic field would never collapse.

No the coil is not shorted. It works a lot like the other circuits.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Dave45 on October 23, 2014, 07:01:42 AM

I think we need to not forsake electron flow, I couldnt understand why the pnp setup didnt just run to ground, why it lit the led at all, now I understand the electron doesnt run to ground they continue to circulate in the coil.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Dave45 on October 23, 2014, 08:02:57 AM

The electron path, current may run to ground but the electron takes an alternate path

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on October 23, 2014, 08:05:29 AM

Quote from: Dave45 on October 23, 2014, 07:01:42 AM
I think we need to not forsake electron flow, I couldnt understand why the pnp setup didnt just run to ground, why it lit the led at all, now I understand the electron doesnt run to ground they continue to circulate in the coil.

Dave, you keep posting one circuit after another. What are you looking for in comments when you do this? I think you should at least say what problem you've found or are worried about with one circuit before moving to the next circuit. This latest circuit doesn't make any sense at all. What are you trying to do? What specific idea do you have that you want to pursue that you think or hope this circuit will manage that the earlier circuits you've posted this week won't?

Things that you should keep in mind:

Inductors resist changes in current. Wherever you connect an inductor to a transistor or other kind of switch you need to plan a path for the current to continue when the transistor or other form of switch turns off that will not develop a voltage that will harm the transistor or switch that you are trying to turn off.

This latest circuit will develop current in the middle winding when the PNP transistor is on. When it turns off, the center winding will flyback without anything to maintain the current. The voltage will swing negative until the PNP transistor avalanches. Do that a few times and the PNP transistor will be destroyed.

If you turn the NPN transistor on, first it is configured as a common collector so it will drop at least 0.7V, more typically 1V. Then more voltage will drop going through the diode and then the middle winding to the negative battery terminal. When you try to shut off the NPN transistor the coil connection to the emitter will swing negative until the emitter is far enough below the base that the transistor continues to conduct. As the energy in the coil's magnetic field dissipates, the NPN will turn off.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on October 23, 2014, 08:08:12 AM

Quote from: Dave45 on October 23, 2014, 08:02:57 AM
The electron path, current may run to ground but the electron takes an alternate path

Dave this latest drawing of yours does show correct electron flow convention current.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Dave45 on October 23, 2014, 08:40:40 AM

Quote from: MarkE on October 23, 2014, 08:08:12 AM
Dave this latest drawing of yours does show correct electron flow convention current.

Im learning, Iv found through testing my former idea's were wrong.
But that being said we are missing something or we would have free energy and I will continue until I understand.
The pnp diode really had me stumped but I now understand so the exercises are not futile.
Hope you dont mind if I continue, I appreciate your feedback.

dave

So what happens if both pnp transistors turn on and off at the same time, does current continue to circulate in the coil? during the off cycle.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on October 23, 2014, 10:28:49 AM

Quote from: Dave45 on October 23, 2014, 08:40:40 AM
Im learning, Iv found through testing my former idea's were wrong.
But that being said we are missing something or we would have free energy and I will continue until I understand.
The pnp diode really had me stumped but I now understand so the exercises are not futile.
Hope you dont mind if I continue, I appreciate your feedback.

dave

So what happens if both pnp transistors turn on and off at the same time, does current continue to circulate in the coil? during the off cycle.

Yes as it must. The second transistor adds complexity but no change to the function. If you had two diodes, one from the bottom transistor back to the positive sid eof the battery, and the other from the to transistor to the negative side, then when the transistors turn off the coil will discharge into the battery instead of just recirculating. The current decay will be much faster.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Dave45 on October 24, 2014, 07:28:00 AM

Wouldnt this allow the magnetic field to collapse......oscillate.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Dave45 on October 24, 2014, 07:48:08 AM

Electron path

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on October 24, 2014, 07:48:21 AM

Quote from: Dave45 on October 24, 2014, 07:28:00 AM
Wouldnt this allow the magnetic field to collapse......oscillate.

The cirucit looks like it will oscillate. The right hand section will develop voltages that depend on the relationship between the left hand oscillation frequency and the resonant frequency of the transformer primary inductance and the capacitor across it.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on October 24, 2014, 10:27:58 AM

PNP Joule Thief

The standard JT circuit using NPN transistor will also work with a PNP transistor, by reversing polarity of the Battery and the LED, and connecting the PNP collector to where the NPN emitter was connected, and the PNP emitter where the NPN collector was connected. I've just confirmed this on my Testbed JT, which uses a 1:1 toroid winding of 13+13 turns and a 2s12p series-parallel array of 24 LEDs, running on a depleted AAA battery.

I just got a package of 50 ea. BC556B transistors for about $3.50 US and I need to find something to do with them, since I only needed one for the reason I ordered them.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Dave45 on October 24, 2014, 07:53:43 PM

Quote from: TinselKoala on October 24, 2014, 10:27:58 AM
PNP Joule Thief

The standard JT circuit using NPN transistor will also work with a PNP transistor, by reversing polarity of the Battery and the LED, and connecting the PNP collector to where the NPN emitter was connected, and the PNP emitter where the NPN collector was connected. I've just confirmed this on my Testbed JT,

Interesting
I built the pnp joule thief as well but just changed out the transistors from npn to pnp and it worked well.
The transistor legs went back into the same positions, emitter to emitter, base to base and collector to collector.
Of course the battery and led were reversed.
I didnt think to turn the transistor around.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on October 25, 2014, 03:07:27 AM

I've found that some NPN transistors will also work "reversed" in the JT testbed with no other changes from the normal NPN configuration. Only some, not all.

The BC337-25 is one such NPN that works both ways, although the "correct" way results in a brighter LED array and an audible singing sound.

The BC556B PNP also works both ways, I found, with the battery and LED polarities reversed from the normal NPN circuit.

Bear in mind that my testbed uses a 13+13 turn winding. It might not be the case that a reversed transistor will work with other winding ratios. I'm using a AAA battery that reads about 1.31 volts unloaded, and I'm driving a 24 LED array of white LEDs, 12 in parallel, in series with another 12 in parallel.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Dave45 on October 25, 2014, 09:27:01 AM

I find it interesting that the high side setup is a start stop reaction whereas the low side setup continues to circulate the electron and current.
It would seem the low side setup would be much more efficient

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Dave45 on October 25, 2014, 09:48:08 AM

Its not really the transistor type but the topology

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on October 25, 2014, 09:48:10 AM

The PNP is a flyback topology. The NPN is a boost topology.

In each current builds in the coil while the transistor is on.

In each when the transistor turns off the coil flies back until the LED latches on carrying the current.

Because the battery continues to supply current in the NPN boost case, the inductor current does not decay as fast as the PNP flyback, and it can generally deliver more power than the PNP flyback.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Dave45 on October 25, 2014, 10:10:48 AM

Quote from: MarkE on October 25, 2014, 09:48:10 AM
The PNP is a flyback topology. The NPN is a boost topology.

In each current builds in the coil while the transistor is on.

In each when the transistor turns off the coil flies back until the LED latches on carrying the current.

Because the battery continues to supply current in the NPN boost case, the inductor current does not decay as fast as the PNP flyback, and it can generally deliver more power than the PNP flyback.

Yes the high side driver delivers more power at the expense of the battery but the low side makes better use of the electrons in a short burst because of the electron recirculation.
It reminds me of tapping a wheel to make it spin.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on October 25, 2014, 10:56:26 AM

Quote from: Dave45 on October 25, 2014, 10:10:48 AM
Yes the high side driver delivers more power at the expense of the battery but the low side makes better use of the electrons in a short burst because of the electron recirculation.
It reminds me of tapping a wheel to make it spin.

The efficiency of either configuration depends on several factors. The most important are:

The inductor resistance.
The voltage drop of the transistor while on.
The turn on and turn off times of the transistor.
Transistor base current.

All things considered equal, the boost topology is usually more efficient. Boost or flyback can be done with PNP or NPN transistors. Faster and higher current handling NPN transistors are easier to make than PNP transistors.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Dave45 on October 25, 2014, 11:41:12 AM

QuoteAll things considered equal, the boost topology is usually more efficient.

Is it because the high side driver oscillates whereas the low side doesnt.
It would seem the low side driver would be more efficient at driving leds.
The high side would be more efficient at driving a transformer.

Its interesting I really dont have the equipment to do proper measurements, no scope, but Im still going to setup the low side setup and see if I can get it to oscillate using a tank circuit.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on October 25, 2014, 11:49:25 AM

You've got to get yourself some sort of scope so that you can see what happens. A Hantek 6022 that plugs into a USB port on a computer is $65. Old analog scopes on eBay are $100.

LED or transformer, it does not matter. You can get faster, lower voltage drop NPNs than you can PNPs..

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Dave45 on October 25, 2014, 10:30:01 PM

I replaced the resistor with a diode, it works.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on October 25, 2014, 10:38:21 PM

There is no reason it shouldn't work with an input voltage that is high enough to overcome the diode forward voltage drop and a large enough capacitor. I am not sure what advantage you think the diode introduces.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on October 27, 2014, 05:28:11 AM

I'm curious as to why the Basic JT circuit, with 1:1 inductor ratio, will work with (some) reversed transistors. The NPN circuit will work with, eg, BC337-25 reversed E-for-C, and the PNP circuit will work with BC556B reversed E-for-C.
MarkE, can you give an explanation for this? It's over my head theoretically.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on October 27, 2014, 06:45:47 AM

Quote from: TinselKoala on October 27, 2014, 05:28:11 AM
I'm curious as to why the Basic JT circuit, with 1:1 inductor ratio, will work with (some) reversed transistors. The NPN circuit will work with, eg, BC337-25 reversed E-for-C, and the PNP circuit will work with BC556B reversed E-for-C.
MarkE, can you give an explanation for this? It's over my head theoretically.

There are so many JT variants out there I need to ask for a sketch.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on October 27, 2014, 08:51:27 AM

See below. Straight NPN version shown. For straight PNP version reverse polarities of battery and LED. For "reverse" transistor versions swap C and E connections.
My testbed uses a 13+13 winding on a random toroid, dark grey or black.
PNP: eg. BC556B etc.
NPN: eg. BC337-25 etc.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on October 27, 2014, 09:52:42 AM

The solution is really quite simple. When you reverse C and E you change the circuit from common emitter with a relatively high output impedance to common collector with a low output impedance and in either case current flow stops when the base is not more than 1 Vbe above the emitter (NPN). The transformer acts as a 2:1 autotransformer between the LED side and the transistor base side. As the base voltage increases, the emitter voltage decreases and vice-versa. As long as the initial voltage source is greater than Vbe, the circuit should be able to start. It should be able to hold down to Vbe/2. Current through the E-C path of a forward biased BJT can flow in either direction.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on October 27, 2014, 10:42:10 AM

Quote from: MarkE on October 27, 2014, 09:52:42 AM
The solution is really quite simple. When you reverse C and E you change the circuit from common emitter with a relatively high output impedance to common collector with a low output impedance and in either case current flow stops when the base is not more than 1 Vbe above the emitter (NPN). The transformer acts as a 2:1 autotransformer between the LED side and the transistor base side. As the base voltage increases, the emitter voltage decreases and vice-versa. As long as the initial voltage source is greater than Vbe, the circuit should be able to start. It should be able to hold down to Vbe/2. Current through the E-C path of a forward biased BJT can flow in either direction.

Yep. As soon as I posted that schematic the "bulb lit up" in my brain. My understanding must be improving, thanks for your help.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Dave45 on October 27, 2014, 11:41:41 AM

http://www.learnabout-electronics.org/PSU/psu31.php (http://www.learnabout-electronics.org/PSU/psu31.php)
http://www.learnabout-electronics.org/PSU/psu32.php
The boost converter is constantly pulling from the battery whereas the buck only pulls during the on time of the transistor.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on October 27, 2014, 11:51:27 AM

Quote from: Dave45 on October 27, 2014, 11:41:41 AM
http://www.learnabout-electronics.org/PSU/psu31.php (http://www.learnabout-electronics.org/PSU/psu31.php)
http://www.learnabout-electronics.org/PSU/psu32.php
The boost converter is constantly pulling from the battery whereas the buck only pulls during the on time of the transistor.

That is true, but the JT and its variants use either a flyback: discontinuous current at both ports, or boost: continuous input current / discontinuous output current.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Dave45 on October 27, 2014, 11:57:20 AM

So could we use this to take high voltage ac bring down the voltage and boost the amperage.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Dave45 on October 27, 2014, 12:46:00 PM

Quote from: Dave45 on October 27, 2014, 11:57:20 AM
So could we use this to take high voltage ac bring down the voltage and boost the amperage.

I guess I already know the answer to that but will we get an energy gain in the process is the real question.

We can use a mazilli circuit to get the high voltage at a low amperage cost but but but :)
getting a pnp transistor that will handle the high voltage.
igbt maybe

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on October 27, 2014, 03:36:22 PM

Quote from: Dave45 on October 27, 2014, 12:46:00 PM
I guess I already know the answer to that but will we get an energy gain in the process is the real question.

We can use a mazilli circuit to get the high voltage at a low amperage cost but but but :)
getting a pnp transistor that will handle the high voltage.
igbt maybe

No: An ideal power converter would deliver 100% of the input power to the output. No such thing has ever been demonstrated. But efficiencies in the high 90%'s are routine enough. A synchronously rectified buck converter is a complement of a synchronously rectified boost converter and some systems operate on that principle transferring power from a higher voltage bus down to another by bucking some of the time and going the other way by boosting from the lower voltage bus to the higher voltage bus some of the time.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Dave45 on October 27, 2014, 03:50:13 PM

QuoteNo: An ideal power converter would deliver 100% of the input power to the output. No such thing has ever been demonstrated

Lol Mark where's your sense of adventure ;D

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on October 27, 2014, 05:05:40 PM

Quote from: Dave45 on October 27, 2014, 03:50:13 PM
Lol Mark where's your sense of adventure ;D

I merely stated a fact. I don't discourage anyone from trying.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Dave45 on October 28, 2014, 06:47:30 AM

One is always building one is always collapsing.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Dave45 on October 28, 2014, 07:00:41 AM

Thinking about it, for the most part bemf is always feeding the load.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Dave45 on October 28, 2014, 07:37:15 AM

bemf feed

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Dave45 on October 28, 2014, 08:29:52 AM

With sequential synchronous switching it could be done using three chokes.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 07, 2014, 05:53:59 PM

Here is an update on my Micro Joule Thief efforts:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6B4_EHmOIQ&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6B4_EHmOIQ&feature=youtu.be)

I made these lights using the NCP 1402 chip which will switch down to .3 volts. I have been attempting to make a commercial light that will run on dead batteries and finally decided that modifying an existing light is the way to go. This video shows my progression from making an entire light myself, to finding a good light to modify. By rewiring the light in parallel from series, I can now operate using just a single battery, or two, or the three the lights were designed to use. Using three batteries will give a very long run time.

I am now working on seeing just how long that is, along with some other testing before making these available on my website.

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on December 07, 2014, 07:42:11 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 07, 2014, 05:53:59 PM
Here is an update on my Micro Joule Thief efforts:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6B4_EHmOIQ&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6B4_EHmOIQ&feature=youtu.be)

I made these lights using the NCP 1402 chip which will switch down to .3 volts. I have been attempting to make a commercial light that will run on dead batteries and finally decided that modifying an existing light is the way to go. This video shows my progression from making an entire light myself, to finding a good light to modify. By rewiring the light in parallel from series, I can now operate using just a single battery, of two, or the three the lights were designed to use. Using three batteries will give a very long run time.

I am now working on seeing just how long that is, along with some other testing before making these available on my website.

Bill

The NCP1402 is a good choice provided that you have a current limiting mechanism on the load side. If you do not then the LED current can be highly variable and other problems can occur. One way around the problem would be to steal the circuitry out of one of those garden stick lights. They are limited int he total power that they can deliver, but they can generally operate to pretty low input voltages, are efficient and drive the LEDs with a current instead of a voltage.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 07, 2014, 09:55:49 PM

Quote from: MarkE on December 07, 2014, 07:42:11 PM
The NCP1402 is a good choice provided that you have a current limiting mechanism on the load side. If you do not then the LED current can be highly variable and other problems can occur. One way around the problem would be to steal the circuitry out of one of those garden stick lights. They are limited int he total power that they can deliver, but they can generally operate to pretty low input voltages, are efficient and drive the LEDs with a current instead of a voltage.

Mark:

Thanks. In my earlier videos of my attempts, I used the garden light circuitry. It was fine for lighting one or two leds but that was about all it could handle. I still have about 40 of those chips here. Also, they only operated down to about .85 volts, which is not bad, but this chip is much better in my opinion.

I left the resistors installed on the lights circuit board to keep the amp draw below my 200 mA limit with this board. One is for the 24 led circuit and the other is to limit the power from the 3 AAA's when only lighting the three leds. So far so good. I may need to increase the resistor for the 24 leds if I run into problems during testing but, so far, so good.

In the first puck light that I used this circuit board in, I removed the resistor as there were only 3 leds and it was fine. (The 3 AAAs at, 4.5 volts is higher than my 3.3 volt output from the board) Lighting 24 leds is another story which is why I will be testing the heck out of this light.

Thanks,

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: dvy1214 on December 07, 2014, 11:04:51 PM

Might be one of the most efficient ways to run LED lights from an on site power supply. Like it!

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 07, 2014, 11:06:51 PM

Quote from: dvy1214 on December 07, 2014, 11:04:51 PM
Might be one of the most efficient ways to run LED lights from an on site power supply. Like it!

Thank you very much. This chip is rated at 90% efficiency, which is much higher than your average JT circuit.

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on December 07, 2014, 11:29:31 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 07, 2014, 09:55:49 PM
Mark:

Thanks. In my earlier videos of my attempts, I used the garden light circuitry. It was fine for lighting one or two leds but that was about all it could handle. I still have about 40 of those chips here. Also, they only operated down to about .85 volts, which is not bad, but this chip is much better in my opinion.

I left the resistors installed on the lights circuit board to keep the amp draw below my 200 mA limit with this board. One is for the 24 led circuit and the other is to limit the power from the 3 AAA's when only lighting the three leds. So far so good. I may need to increase the resistor for the 24 leds if I run into problems during testing but, so far, so good.

In the first puck light that I used this circuit board in, I removed the resistor as there were only 3 leds and it was fine. (The 3 AAAs at, 4.5 volts is higher than my 3.3 volt output from the board) Lighting 24 leds is another story which is why I will be testing the heck out of this light.

Thanks,

Bill

Bill, that will do at the cost of ultimate efficiency. I think that there is an answer with the NCP1402 but have not modeled or tried it out. The one piece of advice that I can give you is to always check to see if the regulator is outputting its intended voltage. If it outputs less, such as 3V instead of 3.3V then you will find that the efficiency is way off.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 08, 2014, 12:13:16 AM

Well, in the reviews of this board, I did read that as the input voltage drops down below .8 volts, the mA's drop as well. So, it is not reality to expect 200 mA's down at .3 volts. The cool thing about this type of light is that we now have 3 AAA batteries to supply the power. Unless I am wrong, since this now will run on a single AAA, adding a second one should double the run time, and a third should triple it...give or take.

So, I agree with you that as the input depletes, the efficiency will also become non-linear as does the power output. This is probably why the Sparkfun folks rate this board down to .8 volts. Below that...I am sure that all of the numbers go to hell. The NCP 1402 chip will switch down to .3 volts but, depending on the application, you might never get there. (I suspect flashing as we get to a lower v. input below say .5 v. These 24 leds are a large load. I wish there was a commercial light I could modify that had like 10 leds.

As I said, I will do my testing. I believe no matter what happens, this light is now better for giving off light for a longer period than it was designed for. How much longer remains to be seen.

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on December 08, 2014, 02:31:02 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 08, 2014, 12:13:16 AM
Well, in the reviews of this board, I did read that as the input voltage drops down below .8 volts, the mA's drop as well. So, it is not reality to expect 200 mA's down at .3 volts. The cool thing about this type of light is that we now have 3 AAA batteries to supply the power. Unless I am wrong, since this now will run on a single AAA, adding a second one should double the run time, and a third should triple it...give or take.

So, I agree with you that as the input depletes, the efficiency will also become non-linear as does the power output. This is probably why the Sparkfun folks rate this board down to .8 volts. Below that...I am sure that all of the numbers go to hell. The NCP 1402 chip will switch down to .3 volts but, depending on the application, you might never get there. (I suspect flashing as we get to a lower v. input below say .5 v. These 24 leds are a large load. I wish there was a commercial light I could modify that had like 10 leds.

As I said, I will do my testing. I believe no matter what happens, this light is now better for giving off light for a longer period than it was designed for. How much longer remains to be seen.

Bill

SparkFun rates the chip as the data sheet does which is the voltage that the chip will start at. This isn't much of a problem when running LEDs because the alkaline cell will still put out 0.8V under very light load until it is very depleted. So, the NCP1402 bootstraps itself up to the 2.5V - 3V needed to get the LED going. You can modify those oval Harbor Freight lights easily enough to disconnect half of the cheapo LEDs that they use.

The drop-out voltage will be sort of a soft thing. What will happen is that the NCP1402 will run up against its maximum duty cycle and then the LED voltage will fall and the LED current will then rapidly collapse. The NCP1402 is rated for 70% to 85% maximum duty cycle. Assuming that you need at least 2.6V to run a white LED without a current limiting resistor, then you could limit as high as 0.78V or as low as 0.39V with 0.57V as a typical value. If you need a current limiting resistor, you will start dimming out pretty close to 0.8V cell voltage.

Personally, if your goal is to get the most light times hours out of a particular light and battery combination, then I think you will be much better off addressing the LED choice and the power converter efficiency than worrying about extending the drop-out voltage below 0.8V or even 0.9V. At 100mW, the additional energy that is available from a AA alkaline cell from 0.8V down to 0.5V is about 5%. At 250mW load it is hard to measure. With AAA's there is almost no run time extension even at 100mW. If you can get them, you might want to play with PAM2803 or PAM2805 chips. They are designed for LED flashlights and incorporate the current regulation while dropping a mere 95mV in the sense resistor. They are rated to start at 0.9V. They are hard to get in the USA.

Those oval lights that Harbor Freight sells have a 1.5 Ohm current limit resistor in series with the LEDs. Driven by a bench supply at 4.5V (three fresh AAA's) they draw 440mA. When the voltage drops to 3.6V they are down to 210mA. At 3V they are down to 70mA a mere 1/6th of their initial brightness, and at 2.5V they are off. 440mA is very hard on a AAA cell, and a AAA cell can only go about 45 minutes at that kind of load. Even if you leave their junk LEDs alone, you could greatly extend the run time at good brightness by getting rid of the dropping resistor and running the LEDs at say 200mA and 3.3V. At 80% converter efficiency you would need 825mW from the cells. At 825mW you should get about 2.5 hours run time. That's more than triple what people can expect from those lights as they are. Part of which you get by running at about 200mA all the time instead of 440mA starting. 200mA output is more than the NCP1402 can handle but it is well within the capability of the PAM2803 and PAM2805.

ETA: Here is an extrapolated plot of AA alkaline run time at constant power loads of 250mW and 100mW, and the unextrapolated AAA plot.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: mrjunkie on December 09, 2014, 01:44:11 AM

can anyone help me with a kodak 2e9240 pls, i wish to use a solar panel and make overunity

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 09, 2014, 09:52:43 PM

Quote from: MarkE on December 08, 2014, 02:31:02 AM
SparkFun rates the chip as the data sheet does which is the voltage that the chip will start at. This isn't much of a problem when running LEDs because the alkaline cell will still put out 0.8V under very light load until it is very depleted. So, the NCP1402 bootstraps itself up to the 2.5V - 3V needed to get the LED going. You can modify those oval Harbor Freight lights easily enough to disconnect half of the cheapo LEDs that they use.

The drop-out voltage will be sort of a soft thing. What will happen is that the NCP1402 will run up against its maximum duty cycle and then the LED voltage will fall and the LED current will then rapidly collapse. The NCP1402 is rated for 70% to 85% maximum duty cycle. Assuming that you need at least 2.6V to run a white LED without a current limiting resistor, then you could limit as high as 0.78V or as low as 0.39V with 0.57V as a typical value. If you need a current limiting resistor, you will start dimming out pretty close to 0.8V cell voltage.

Personally, if your goal is to get the most light times hours out of a particular light and battery combination, then I think you will be much better off addressing the LED choice and the power converter efficiency than worrying about extending the drop-out voltage below 0.8V or even 0.9V. At 100mW, the additional energy that is available from a AA alkaline cell from 0.8V down to 0.5V is about 5%. At 250mW load it is hard to measure. With AAA's there is almost no run time extension even at 100mW. If you can get them, you might want to play with PAM2803 or PAM2805 chips. They are designed for LED flashlights and incorporate the current regulation while dropping a mere 95mV in the sense resistor. They are rated to start at 0.9V. They are hard to get in the USA.

Those oval lights that Harbor Freight sells have a 1.5 Ohm current limit resistor in series with the LEDs. Driven by a bench supply at 4.5V (three fresh AAA's) they draw 440mA. When the voltage drops to 3.6V they are down to 210mA. At 3V they are down to 70mA a mere 1/6th of their initial brightness, and at 2.5V they are off. 440mA is very hard on a AAA cell, and a AAA cell can only go about 45 minutes at that kind of load. Even if you leave their junk LEDs alone, you could greatly extend the run time at good brightness by getting rid of the dropping resistor and running the LEDs at say 200mA and 3.3V. At 80% converter efficiency you would need 825mW from the cells. At 825mW you should get about 2.5 hours run time. That's more than triple what people can expect from those lights as they are. Part of which you get by running at about 200mA all the time instead of 440mA starting. 200mA output is more than the NCP1402 can handle but it is well within the capability of the PAM2803 and PAM2805.

ETA: Here is an extrapolated plot of AA alkaline run time at constant power loads of 250mW and 100mW, and the unextrapolated AAA plot.

Mark:

Wow, thanks, that is a lot of good info there. I considered removing some of the leds but, that would not look too good in this package.

I will have to open the light up again to determine if the leds are in series, or parallel. I can not recall which way draws less Ma's at this moment. In the reviews of this light on Amazon, there were complaints that it would only run for about 4 hours. I figured with this modification, I could get maybe close to 12.

I do not like the idea that I might be pushing 400 mA's through this board rated at only 200 mA's. Nothing good can happen in the long run with numbers like that. It would be very difficult for me to use a meter to check my actual amp draw, as everything is now soldered up in parallel. I know TK has always said that you can not rely on your power supply to determine amp draw but, what if I took a reading with my light meter at a fixed location from the light, and then, used my power supply to get the same reading? Would not the amp draw used by my digital power supply be at least close? I can use my magnetic clip jumper wires to hook up my light and it would not be hard to do at all.

I just checked a laser yesterday that I was repairing/modifying for a friend of mine. ( I modified it to run on multiple AA batteries instead of those small button cells. Mine is still working on the original AA bats. after playing with my cat every day for 6 months) As I turned up the voltage on my power supply to 3 volts, I got a reading of 200 mA's which was the same on the laser I modified for myself.

Another alternative I was considering was to use a single 18650 Li-on battery at 3.7 volts and 4,000 mA hours and forget the expensive circuit board. This is almost 4 times the mA rating of a AAA battery, which determines the longevity of light in the stock configuration in series. That should give me somewhere around 12 hours of light as well...no?

Thanks for your help,

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on December 09, 2014, 10:14:05 PM

Quote from: mrjunkie on December 09, 2014, 01:44:11 AM
can anyone help me with a kodak 2e9240 pls, i wish to use a solar panel and make overunity

Googling "kodak 2e9240" returns only three hits and no hits that make sense to me, and just "2e9240" returns some links about a particular color of emerald green.

If we only knew what you are talking about we might be able to make some progress, but it might not be the "overunity" you are seeking.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on December 09, 2014, 10:18:18 PM

@Pirate: There are too many variables to be able to tell if your proposed lightmeter method is valid or not. The integration time constant of the lightmeter is unknown for example. Better, I think, would be to use your oscilloscope or even the DMM to take a current reading (Vdrop across a known series small resistance) in combination with a voltage reading on the other channel; one can make a very good "guesstimation" of the necessary multiplication to get an average power value that way.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 09, 2014, 10:54:13 PM

Quote from: TinselKoala on December 09, 2014, 10:18:18 PM
@Pirate: There are too many variables to be able to tell if your proposed lightmeter method is valid or not. The integration time constant of the lightmeter is unknown for example. Better, I think, would be to use your oscilloscope or even the DMM to take a current reading (Vdrop across a known series small resistance) in combination with a voltage reading on the other channel; one can make a very good "guesstimation" of the necessary multiplication to get an average power value that way.

TK:

Thank you for the reply. I would use one of my dmms but I do not know how to put the meter in series with the input now that I have wired the light in parallel. (with 3 separate inputs for all 3 AAA bats.) I suppose I could cut all of my connections and place the meter in series but, I was hoping to avoid all of that. Maybe I should just get another light and use another circuit board and test it prior to modding the battery inputs? Hey, that way I can have a bunch of clip leads all over my bench and I can video that and claim overunity? (Just kidding)

I appreciate the advice.

Thanks,

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on December 09, 2014, 11:12:00 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 09, 2014, 09:52:43 PM
Mark:

Wow, thanks, that is a lot of good info there. I considered removing some of the leds but, that would not look too good in this package.

I will have to open the light up again to determine if the leds are in series, or parallel.

In those oval lights they are all in parallel.

QuoteI can not recall which way draws less Ma's at this moment. In the reviews of this light on Amazon, there were complaints that it would only run for about 4 hours. I figured with this modification, I could get maybe close to 12.

The one that I have would be very lucky to make 4 hours at any reasonable brightness.

Quote

I do not like the idea that I might be pushing 400 mA's through this board rated at only 200 mA's. Nothing good can happen in the long run with numbers like that. It would be very difficult for me to use a meter to check my actual amp draw, as everything is now soldered up in parallel. I know TK has always said that you can not rely on your power supply to determine amp draw but, what if I took a reading with my light meter at a fixed location from the light, and then, used my power supply to get the same reading? Would not the amp draw used by my digital power supply be at least close? I can use my magnetic clip jumper wires to hook up my light and it would not be hard to do at all.

If you put a sizeable capacitor in parallel with the power supply the capacitor will even out the ripple and the power supply current reading will be reasonably accurate.

Quote

I just checked a laser yesterday that I was repairing/modifying for a friend of mine. ( I modified it to run on multiple AA batteries instead of those small button cells. Mine is still working on the original AA bats. after playing with my cat every day for 6 months) As I turned up the voltage on my power supply to 3 volts, I got a reading of 200 mA's which was the same on the laser I modified for myself.

Another alternative I was considering was to use a single 18650 Li-on battery at 3.7 volts and 4,000 mA hours and forget the expensive circuit board. This is almost 4 times the mA rating of a AAA battery, which determines the longevity of light in the stock configuration in series. That should give me somewhere around 12 hours of light as well...no?

Thanks for your help,

Bill

An 18650 will really yield about 2600 - 3000mAh. There are many unscrupulous sellers who put arbitrary labels on cells and even sell used cells. If it isn't Panasonic or Samsung then it's something of a crap shoot.

There are buck converters designed to work with Li-ion cells. I have not worked with them.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 23, 2014, 10:40:07 PM

Well folks, MarkE was correct...the ncp1402 board in my harbor freight light has begun to flash in an erratic manner after only about 3+ hours on the 24 leds setting.

So, once again, it is back to the drawing board.

Thanks for the info Mark.

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 27, 2014, 04:40:19 PM

Quote from: MarkE on December 08, 2014, 02:31:02 AM
SparkFun rates the chip as the data sheet does which is the voltage that the chip will start at. This isn't much of a problem when running LEDs because the alkaline cell will still put out 0.8V under very light load until it is very depleted. So, the NCP1402 bootstraps itself up to the 2.5V - 3V needed to get the LED going. You can modify those oval Harbor Freight lights easily enough to disconnect half of the cheapo LEDs that they use.

The drop-out voltage will be sort of a soft thing. What will happen is that the NCP1402 will run up against its maximum duty cycle and then the LED voltage will fall and the LED current will then rapidly collapse. The NCP1402 is rated for 70% to 85% maximum duty cycle. Assuming that you need at least 2.6V to run a white LED without a current limiting resistor, then you could limit as high as 0.78V or as low as 0.39V with 0.57V as a typical value. If you need a current limiting resistor, you will start dimming out pretty close to 0.8V cell voltage.

Personally, if your goal is to get the most light times hours out of a particular light and battery combination, then I think you will be much better off addressing the LED choice and the power converter efficiency than worrying about extending the drop-out voltage below 0.8V or even 0.9V. At 100mW, the additional energy that is available from a AA alkaline cell from 0.8V down to 0.5V is about 5%. At 250mW load it is hard to measure. With AAA's there is almost no run time extension even at 100mW. If you can get them, you might want to play with PAM2803 or PAM2805 chips. They are designed for LED flashlights and incorporate the current regulation while dropping a mere 95mV in the sense resistor. They are rated to start at 0.9V. They are hard to get in the USA.

Those oval lights that Harbor Freight sells have a 1.5 Ohm current limit resistor in series with the LEDs. Driven by a bench supply at 4.5V (three fresh AAA's) they draw 440mA. When the voltage drops to 3.6V they are down to 210mA. At 3V they are down to 70mA a mere 1/6th of their initial brightness, and at 2.5V they are off. 440mA is very hard on a AAA cell, and a AAA cell can only go about 45 minutes at that kind of load. Even if you leave their junk LEDs alone, you could greatly extend the run time at good brightness by getting rid of the dropping resistor and running the LEDs at say 200mA and 3.3V. At 80% converter efficiency you would need 825mW from the cells. At 825mW you should get about 2.5 hours run time. That's more than triple what people can expect from those lights as they are. Part of which you get by running at about 200mA all the time instead of 440mA starting. 200mA output is more than the NCP1402 can handle but it is well within the capability of the PAM2803 and PAM2805.

ETA: Here is an extrapolated plot of AA alkaline run time at constant power loads of 250mW and 100mW, and the unextrapolated AAA plot.

I found this online as a typical circuit to be used with the Pam2803. Now all I have to do is find a source for the chips.

Thanks Mark,

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on December 27, 2014, 04:52:15 PM

http://www.utsource.net/ic-datasheet/PAM2803-5062937.html (http://www.utsource.net/ic-datasheet/PAM2803-5062937.html)

I've dealt with UTSource half a dozen times or so, and they are reliable and pretty fast. About 10 business days from China to my mailbox in Texas. Their pricing structure is kind of strange, but they do respond to email questions. Order some other stuff at the same time! They have obscure, obsolete, and hard to find semiconductors, as well as ordinary stuff.

I've taken apart one of the 24 LED oval lights from HF and rewired it so that it is 2-series-12-parallel instead of 24-parallel. This makes it work a little better as a load for my JTs, which seem to like pushing through the doubled fwd voltage.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 27, 2014, 04:54:40 PM

Thanks TK. I see that Mouser has some in stock as well. I have ordered from utsource before and they were great.

Thanks,

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on December 27, 2014, 04:56:39 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 27, 2014, 04:40:19 PM
I found this online as a typical circuit to be used with the Pam2803. Now all I have to do is find a source for the chips.

Thanks Mark,

Bill

A colleague of mine tried three times to get PAM2803 parts from various Alibaba suppliers. He said all three times the parts he received were counterfeits. Mouser's got them for a reasonable price. If I were you, I would snap some up from there. This is the first time I have seen any in the USA ever. I just ordered 100. I'm going to give half of them to my colleague. I owe him big time.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: electricme on December 27, 2014, 05:12:22 PM

G'DAY everyone, :)
Merry Christmas and New Year to you all.

Special hello to Bill and the old crew

Oh, this thread is longer now, well done, who would have thought so much could be done with a JT

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 27, 2014, 06:55:08 PM

Quote from: electricme on December 27, 2014, 05:12:22 PM
G'DAY everyone, :)
Merry Christmas and New Year to you all.

Special hello to Bill and the old crew

Oh, this thread is longer now, well done, who would have thought so much could be done with a JT

Jim:

Great to see you here Mate! How have you been?

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you as well.

I miss seeing your experiments posted over here. Hopefully, you now have better internet access and can join in on the forums again.

Take care,

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on December 28, 2014, 11:55:05 AM

Hi all, still around taking a look in. Hope every one had a great Xmas and wishing you all a Happy New Year :)

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 28, 2014, 12:10:32 PM

Crowclaw:

The same to you as well.

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: tgraca on December 28, 2014, 06:01:58 PM

Damn... 1,117 pages of posts... It would take me 6+ months to go through these. As I do... here's
a simplified JT circuit that works well for me. 2 inductors and a 3904. I worked through a number of
standard inductors, but the 1M's work the best for 1 AA down to crystal batteries. Here's the schematic
for the one with 10 mH inductors, which works well for very low powered crystal cells.

Note the measurements of ohms and capacitance on these little standard inductors. I don't see anyone
do this online. Lidmotor was the first besides me that I noticed to note ohms a couple days ago with his
most recent video. I hope this is a new trend moving forward.

These measurements will not only help others replicate your efforts, but it also helps with the math behind
it. There's an old Eric Dollard video where he talks about how Tesla worked inductance and capacitance
into his coils to create the most efficient longitudinal waves. Eric didn't talk about resistance/impedance
though... this is where the ohms reading comes in and has to do with reactance.

If you have an ohm meter and/or an LC meter (the best LC meter I have was less than $20 delivered on
eBay), I hope you will take the extra 30 seconds to note these readings on your coils/bifilars/inductors/chokes
so we can all replicate, contribute new ideas, and document what works and what works best.

Thanks! Your fan, Teo!

PS - if you are a MrAngusWangus fan on YouTube, he talks about reactance in his latest 2+ hour video.
He (like me) also believes that the LC meter is the most valuable tool in your shop!!!

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: electricme on December 28, 2014, 09:01:26 PM

@ tgraca,
I sympithise with you, 1,117 pages is an awful lot to read up on.
Like your circuit, keep up the good work.
Resistance (carbon) is a important part in making it tuned to peak performance
:)

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on December 28, 2014, 09:25:01 PM

Quote from: tgraca on December 28, 2014, 06:01:58 PM
Damn... 1,117 pages of posts... It would take me 6+ months to go through these. As I do... here's
a simplified JT circuit that works well for me. 2 inductors and a 3904. I worked through a number of
standard inductors, but the 1M's work the best for 1 AA down to crystal batteries. Here's the schematic
for the one with 10 mH inductors, which works well for very low powered crystal cells.

Note the measurements of ohms and capacitance on these little standard inductors. I don't see anyone
do this online. Lidmotor was the first besides me that I noticed to note ohms a couple days ago with his
most recent video. I hope this is a new trend moving forward.

These measurements will not only help others replicate your efforts, but it also helps with the math behind
it. There's an old Eric Dollard video where he talks about how Tesla worked inductance and capacitance
into his coils to create the most efficient longitudinal waves. Eric didn't talk about resistance/impedance
though... this is where the ohms reading comes in and has to do with reactance.

If you have an ohm meter and/or an LC meter (the best LC meter I have was less than $20 delivered on
eBay), I hope you will take the extra 30 seconds to note these readings on your coils/bifilars/inductors/chokes
so we can all replicate, contribute new ideas, and document what works and what works best.

Thanks! Your fan, Teo!

PS - if you are a MrAngusWangus fan on YouTube, he talks about reactance in his latest 2+ hour video.
He (like me) also believes that the LC meter is the most valuable tool in your shop!!!

0.6uF seems very high. Are you sure it isn't 0.6nF?

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: tgraca on December 28, 2014, 09:28:26 PM

Quote from: electricme on December 28, 2014, 09:01:26 PM
@ tgraca,
I sympithise with you, 1,117 pages is an awful lot to read up on.
Like your circuit, keep up the good work.
Resistance (carbon) is a important part in making it tuned to peak performance
:)

I am not sure what you mean by carbon in terms of resistance, but I love the Peter Linderman lecture on Edwin Gray's generator when
he describes this device (below) and references one element as carbon and the key to Edwin Gray's machine. He called it an
Electro Radiant Transciever... I would love to incorporate something like this into a Joule Thief. I can get 70+ volts from 2 inductors
and a transistor with just 400 mV and 1.3 mA, so I should be able to trigger some sort of radiant energy from something like this...

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 28, 2014, 09:42:21 PM

Quote from: MarkE on December 28, 2014, 09:25:01 PM
0.6uF seems very high. Are you sure it isn't 0.6nF?

That is why I don't use a cheap meter from ebay. The one I wanted is like $150 or more. I bought a cheap one a few years ago and, I can measure the same cap 10 times and get 10 different measurements. Also, it will not do supercaps which is what I was using mostly at that time. I still have it as it does have a nice blue lcd display that I might be able to use elsewhere.

Bill

PS I am not disparaging Teo's meter as I have no idea what he is using. I just know that I tried to give mine away to one of the electronics guys at work, and he did not want it as he said it was crap. Mine cost $25.00 a few years ago. It runs off a 9 volt battery.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: tgraca on December 28, 2014, 09:48:50 PM

Quote from: MarkE on December 28, 2014, 09:25:01 PM
0.6uF seems very high. Are you sure it isn't 0.6nF?

Well, that's what my LC meter shows... The battery may be low... I changed the battery and am getting 3 uF (not nF).
I tried my other LC meter and it's showing about 4 uF... I guess I need to find a descent meter for capacitance.
I do know that these inductors act as if they have some capacitance. I can see it, so it must be in the uF range.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: tgraca on December 28, 2014, 09:58:14 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 28, 2014, 09:42:21 PM
That is why I don't use a cheap meter from ebay. The one I wanted is like $150 or more. I bought a cheap one a few years ago and, I can measure the same cap 10 times and get 10 different measurements. Also, it will not do supercaps which is what I was using mostly at that time. I still have it as it does have a nice blue lcd display that I might be able to use elsewhere.

Bill

PS I am not disparaging Teo's meter as I have no idea what he is using. I just know that I tried to give mine away to one of the electronics guys at work, and he did not want it as he said it was crap. Mine cost $25.00 a few years ago. It runs off a 9 volt battery.

lol... damn... I guess I am in the market for a descent LC meter... Any suggestions? I am pretty sure these work well with ohms and
mH, but I would be willing to find a better one just to make sure... The LC meter is the most important tool to me...

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on December 28, 2014, 09:59:10 PM

Quote from: tgraca on December 28, 2014, 09:48:50 PM
Well, that's what my LC meter shows... The battery may be low... I changed the battery and am getting 3 uF (not nF).
I tried my other LC meter and it's showing about 4 uF... I guess I need to find a descent meter for capacitance.
I do know that these inductors act as if they have some capacitance. I can see it, so it must be in the uF range.

The numbers seem way off. The resonant frequency of a coil that has 3mH inductance and around 1uF capacitance is around 3kHz. If your JT oscillates much faster than 3kHz then you should be very suspicious of those readings. Are you measuring the capacitance with the coil isolated on the bench, or in circuit?

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on December 28, 2014, 10:00:25 PM

Quote from: tgraca on December 28, 2014, 09:58:14 PM
lol... damn... I guess I am in the market for a descent LC meter... Any suggestions? I am pretty sure these work well with ohms and
mH, but I would be willing to find a better one just to make sure... The LC meter is the most important tool to me...

If you can afford them, Fluke and Keysight make reliable instruments.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: tgraca on December 28, 2014, 10:13:14 PM

Quote from: MarkE on December 28, 2014, 10:00:25 PM
If you can afford them, Fluke and Keysight make reliable instruments.

I got a Fluke 6 months ago.. it couldn't even take a volt reading... I will never buy another one... I'll check into Keysight.
Note that these are standard inductors I am testing and they do show a lot more capacitance than 50-100 turns of 30 gauge
wire around a bolt core, so at least that gives a certain amount of reference. Although the simplified joule thief schematic does
work with standard inductors and without a resistor or capacitor, a resistor or resistor and capacitor IS necessary when working
with the hand wound coils. I am just trying to figure out why, and it seems that the resistance is a major factor. I would like
to think there there is a bit more capacitance to them too, which would make sense. The meters at least show this...

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: d3x0r on December 28, 2014, 10:24:55 PM

can't use a typical LC meter to measure a coil's C... it's only good for a real capacitor that after charging has infinite resistance... a coil will always be less than infinite resistance.... and not the parallel capacitance of the coil..

once you know the L though if you have a signal generator you can approximate the coils' C by finding it's resonance as an open circuit and calculate C from L and F

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: tgraca on December 28, 2014, 10:25:56 PM

Quote from: MarkE on December 28, 2014, 10:00:25 PM
If you can afford them, Fluke and Keysight make reliable instruments.

If you guys are in the US and have a descent LC meter, let me mail you a few of these standard inductors and one of my JT circuits
that I am working with so you can report what you find here. I have tons of built circuits with these things laying around and just got
500 of the 1 mH inductors in... lol - please take a few off my hands! Otherwise, I will have to build more shelves! lol

That would really help me and would help anyone following this mess to know why these work really well in a JT circuit without a resistor.
In the mean time, I will find another LC meter.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 28, 2014, 10:27:28 PM

tgraca:

Hell, those are much better looking meters than what I got. I don't have time to put up a photo but basically, it is just an nice blue lcd screen on an open circuit board with a 9v bat. clip and an input socket. Now I really feel like I got ripped, ha ha.

I agree with what you are saying, however. I have always admired both Lidmotor, and TK in their videos. You can watch their videos and easily replicate (If it is within your ability, most of TK's are not within mine) their devices. Many is the time I have taken a screenshot of a Lidmotor video and produced a printed version of his schematic. I have tried to do better on this as of late, but realize that I am falling way short.

TK has given readings on his JT circuits that I didn't even know were associated with this circuit. But, that is how I learn. (Which is why I bought that cheesy meter in the first place.) I also like how TK uses sockets for his transistors, very easy to swap in others to see the results. I finally found some of those on Electronicgoldmine for like the 2N3904, etc, but have not ordered any yet.

The more information one can give about a particular circuit, the better. Another of my new year's resolutions is to attempt to remember to do this.

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: d3x0r on December 28, 2014, 10:31:52 PM

Quote from: tgraca on December 28, 2014, 10:25:56 PM

That would really help me and would help anyone following this mess to know why these work really well in a JT circuit without a resistor.
In the mean time, I will find another LC meter.

http://www.overunity.com/11986/what-i-learned-in-joule-theif-101 all of mine worked best with no resistor. The resistor made no significant changes when using toroids or cores.

----
descent is to go down.... the long descent into a mine...
decent is a quality qualifier thing... :)

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: tgraca on December 28, 2014, 10:35:31 PM

Quote from: d3x0r on December 28, 2014, 10:24:55 PM
can't use a typical LC meter to measure a coil's C... it's only good for a real capacitor that after charging has infinite resistance... a coil will always be less than infinite resistance.... and not the parallel capacitance of the coil..

once you know the L though if you have a signal generator you can approximate the coils' C by finding it's resonance as an open circuit and calculate C from L and F

If you can send a YouTube video of someone doing that, that will save me looking for a new LC meter. Thanks!
PS - I understand the math, have a signal generator, but haven't tried this, so even an article would help... In the mean time, thanks for
reminding me, and I will also look for articles and videos on this. Nice catch!!!

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: d3x0r on December 28, 2014, 10:44:20 PM

Quote from: tgraca on December 28, 2014, 10:35:31 PM
If you can send a YouTube video of someone doing that, that will save me looking for a new LC meter. Thanks!
PS - I understand the math, have a signal generator, but haven't tried this, so even an article would help... In the mean time, thanks for
reminding me, and I will also look for articles and videos on this. Nice catch!!!

Well... in the case of your prefab inductors... maybe a couple turns of thin wire... connect signal generator ground and signal to the wire.... and scope to inductor.... ground and signal on each end...
2 problems 1) the scope probe has a capacitance that is significantly larger than your inductor (25-250nF)
2) the ratio of turns between primary and secondary affect the resonant frequency...
so it's only an approximation in any case...
might be better to use a LED load or something and tune for max brightness... even then LEDs are like 200pF.

it works better for larger coils....

I guess typically they will add additional series or parallel capacitors of a known value and then you can get deviations from known values... it's a lot more work and haven't found a general calculator to approximate it... so if you had 10pF 100pF 1nF 10nF caps you could approximate as L * x+10pF = yF L * x+100pF=y2 F ...

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on December 28, 2014, 11:30:16 PM

Quote from: tgraca on December 28, 2014, 10:13:14 PM
I got a Fluke 6 months ago.. it couldn't even take a volt reading... I will never buy another one... I'll check into Keysight.
Note that these are standard inductors I am testing and they do show a lot more capacitance than 50-100 turns of 30 gauge
wire around a bolt core, so at least that gives a certain amount of reference. Although the simplified joule thief schematic does
work with standard inductors and without a resistor or capacitor, a resistor or resistor and capacitor IS necessary when working
with the hand wound coils. I am just trying to figure out why, and it seems that the resistance is a major factor. I would like
to think there there is a bit more capacitance to them too, which would make sense. The meters at least show this...

If the inductors are catalog items then if you let me know the Manufacturer and their part number I will look into this. It should not be a surprise that your circuit just using a coupled choke and a transistor oscillates reliably. Winding resistance changes the Q o the inductor. Too much resistance and the transistor will just bias to a stable operating point.

If you are keen on experimenting with that circuit, you might want to try placing a small capacitor across the coil on the base side of the circuit.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: tgraca on December 29, 2014, 05:13:23 AM

Quote from: MarkE on December 28, 2014, 11:30:16 PM
If the inductors are catalog items then if you let me know the Manufacturer and their part number I will look into this. It should not be a surprise that your circuit just using a coupled choke and a transistor oscillates reliably. Winding resistance changes the Q o the inductor. Too much resistance and the transistor will just bias to a stable operating point.

If you are keen on experimenting with that circuit, you might want to try placing a small capacitor across the coil on the base side of the circuit.

Yeah... I've done that in the past with no success. Bill suggested it to me again last week and I rand about 20 capacitors on that specific
circuit yesterday and per Bill's suggestion, I have had a 20F cap on it for several hours and the voltage reading never got past the source
voltage, which is about 450 mV. The larger capacitance cuts the electric from my earth battery to that circuit's LED. I was thinking of
demonstrating this on a short video later today.

As far as these little inductors/chokes, I measured and noted the resistance, which is significant. I am pretty sure these LC meters can
measure resistance of these things much better than they can measure the capacitance of them. I tore a few apart a few months ago.
They have a tiny ferrite core and very thin wire, which looks like copper, wrapped around them. The covering, which you can see, is
some kind of insulator. I love these things!

I have about 50 circuits all over my place with these chokes/inductors of various inductance - I got a 20-value set of 200 on eBay
earlier this year on eBay for less than $5 USD delivered from China early this year. The 1 mH's show about 30-31 ohms and work well
with the 3904/3906 transistors without the need of a resistor or capacitor in a joule thief. The 1 mH version of this JTC also works very
well with fully charged AA batteries all the way down to dead batteries with about 400 mV, 0.5 mA. The 10 mH seem to choke the light
out of the LED with batteries that have too much power.

I'll try to find and demonstrate a "simple" way to test capacitance on these and my other inductors/coils. In case you haven't seen this,
here's a fun view of my mess (I mean lab)! lol

http://youtu.be/_36V25kDTEU

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: gyulasun on December 29, 2014, 06:13:11 AM

Hi tgraca,

Member conradrelektro showed methods how to measure the self resonance of pancake coils and of course the methods are useful for quasy any coil shape, including your Joule thief coils. Here is a link to the videos in 2 parts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC84W0PIZoE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC84W0PIZoE) part 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spQ9yLdb7v4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spQ9yLdb7v4) part 2

Notice for the pitfalls like the input capacitance of a scope probe may cause.

I would show you another video that shows the use of a grid dip meter for checking the self resonance of coils, from time 13:10 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vi24SpKYYoQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vi24SpKYYoQ)
His video #100 tutorial shows a method for measuring capacitors self resonance, it can also be used for coils too.

Allow one notice, prompted by seeing your coils: I would not use bolts and washers in or near coils at all, even if they are stainless steel materials, they may introduce unpredictable eddy current losses at the several kHz frequencies or higher. I had bad experience with bolts as cores in coils, though not in Joule thief cirsauits, that is.

Gyula

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on December 29, 2014, 06:29:52 AM

Quote from: tgraca on December 29, 2014, 05:13:23 AM
Yeah... I've done that in the past with no success. Bill suggested it to me again last week and I rand about 20 capacitors on that specific
circuit yesterday and per Bill's suggestion, I have had a 20F cap on it for several hours and the voltage reading never got past the source
voltage, which is about 450 mV. The larger capacitance cuts the electric from my earth battery to that circuit's LED. I was thinking of
demonstrating this on a short video later today.

As far as these little inductors/chokes, I measured and noted the resistance, which is significant. I am pretty sure these LC meters can
measure resistance of these things much better than they can measure the capacitance of them. I tore a few apart a few months ago.
They have a tiny ferrite core and very thin wire, which looks like copper, wrapped around them. The covering, which you can see, is
some kind of insulator. I love these things!

I have about 50 circuits all over my place with these chokes/inductors of various inductance - I got a 20-value set of 200 on eBay
earlier this year on eBay for less than $5 USD delivered from China early this year. The 1 mH's show about 30-31 ohms and work well
with the 3904/3906 transistors without the need of a resistor or capacitor in a joule thief. The 1 mH version of this JTC also works very
well with fully charged AA batteries all the way down to dead batteries with about 400 mV, 0.5 mA. The 10 mH seem to choke the light
out of the LED with batteries that have too much power.

I'll try to find and demonstrate a "simple" way to test capacitance on these and my other inductors/coils. In case you haven't seen this,
here's a fun view of my mess (I mean lab)! lol

http://youtu.be/_36V25kDTEU

What I meant was to put a small value resonating capacitor directly across the left hand coil. For a 1mH coil 1nF should result in oscillations around 150kHz.

The steel bolts that you are using for cores are very lossy. You can get more efficient operation with ferrite cores. If you really want to hand wind, you should buy some ferrite stock or reclaim it out of old electronics. If you just want coils with well controlled properties then you can buy from places like Coilcraft.

Do you have any particular goals like: Longevity from a AA cell, or minimum operating voltage, or brightness from your LED?

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: gyulasun on December 29, 2014, 06:33:11 AM

Quote from: tgraca on December 28, 2014, 09:58:14 PM
lol... damn... I guess I am in the market for a descent LC meter... Any suggestions? I am pretty sure these work well with ohms and
mH, but I would be willing to find a better one just to make sure... The LC meter is the most important tool to me...

Unfortunately, the LCR meter I would draw your attention is expensive but has useful features like the choice of choosing between some test frequencies, it can measure the impedance of an L or C or R component, it can show on display some automatically calculated data of the components, see info and the type of the meter here:
https://bkpmedia.s3.amazonaws.com/downloads/datasheets/en-us/87xB_datasheet.pdf (https://bkpmedia.s3.amazonaws.com/downloads/datasheets/en-us/87xB_datasheet.pdf)

Gyula

PS I am not an agent for those meters... :)

Title: dip meter
Post by: tgraca on December 29, 2014, 07:10:06 AM

Quote from: gyulasun on December 29, 2014, 06:13:11 AM
Hi tgraca,

Member conradrelektro showed methods how to measure the self resonance of pancake coils and of course the methods are useful for quasy any coil shape, including your Joule thief coils. Here is a link to the videos in 2 parts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC84W0PIZoE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC84W0PIZoE) part 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spQ9yLdb7v4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spQ9yLdb7v4) part 2

Notice for the pitfalls like the input capacitance of a scope probe may cause.

I would show you another video that shows the use of a grid dip meter for checking the self resonance of coils, from time 13:10 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vi24SpKYYoQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vi24SpKYYoQ)
His video #100 tutorial shows a method for measuring capacitors self resonance, it can also be used for coils too.

Allow one notice, prompted by seeing your coils: I would not use bolts and washers in or near coils at all, even if they are stainless steel materials, they may introduce unpredictable eddy current losses at the several kHz frequencies or higher. I had bad experience with bolts as cores in coils, though not in Joule thief cirsauits, that is.

Gyula

Gyula, thank you so much... that's exactly what I needed when I needed it. I can run this tests with what I have, but that dip meter
would really save a lot of time. I need to know what i am working with and I need to be able to check many components quickly.
I'll look into getting one of these. -t

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: tgraca on December 29, 2014, 07:20:32 AM

Quote from: MarkE on December 29, 2014, 06:29:52 AM
What I meant was to put a small value resonating capacitor directly across the left hand coil. For a 1mH coil 1nF should result in oscillations around 150kHz.

The steel bolts that you are using for cores are very lossy. You can get more efficient operation with ferrite cores. If you really want to hand wind, you should buy some ferrite stock or reclaim it out of old electronics. If you just want coils with well controlled properties then you can buy from places like Coilcraft.

Do you have any particular goals like: Longevity from a AA cell, or minimum operating voltage, or brightness from your LED?

My original goal was a bright light that works with a single crystal battery and a wide variety of crystal battery builds and a JTC that
I could build quickly and at a very low cost so I can fill my home with little night lights that run for a long time.
I think two of these 1 mH inductors and the 3904 does the trick, so I have met that goal.
My new goal is to understand why these inductors work so well. The videos Gyula shared lay out succinctly every question I need to ask
and then answer. Wow... thank you Gyula and thank you Mark and Bill and Stefan for hosting this forum. This thread has moved me forward
very quickly in a very short time. Namasta everyone!

PS - I'll continue to share my many failures and rare successes on YouTube and here... tune in if you want a good laugh once in a while. lol

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on December 29, 2014, 08:07:39 AM

You may want to test different transistors. I have tested many, and I've found that MPSA18 and BC337-25 work well, and even the 2n2222a works well. In my testing the 2n3904 actually had the _highest_ start and stop threshold voltages in the basic JT test circuit I used. Depending on your circuit component values you may get different results. I tested only the "start oscillation" and "stop oscillation" voltages; other performance parameters like current drain and LED brightness may not follow the same pattern. But experiment, you never know unless you try.

Here's my "data table" giving the start and stop threshold voltages for various transistors. These are the supply voltages. "Start" is the lowest voltage at which the JT oscillations will start and light an LED, and "Stop" is the voltage when the oscillations stop. The LED may go out at higher voltages, many JTs will continue to oscillate well after the LED is actually out.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: tgraca on December 29, 2014, 09:25:10 AM

Quote from: TinselKoala on December 29, 2014, 08:07:39 AM
You may want to test different transistors. I have tested many, and I've found that MPSA18 and BC337-25 work well, and even the 2n2222a works well. In my testing the 2n3904 actually had the _highest_ start and stop threshold voltages in the basic JT test circuit I used. Depending on your circuit component values you may get different results. I tested only the "start oscillation" and "stop oscillation" voltages; other performance parameters like current drain and LED brightness may not follow the same pattern. But experiment, you never know unless you try.

Here's my "data table" giving the start and stop threshold voltages for various transistors. These are the supply voltages. "Start" is the lowest voltage at which the JT oscillations will start and light an LED, and "Stop" is the voltage when the oscillations stop. The LED may go out at higher voltages, many JTs will continue to oscillate well after the LED is actually out.

I just got a bunch of 2222A's in... they finally became readily available and are now actually cheaper than the 3904's. I use the MPSA18's
if I am working with near half an amp and 3055's when I am working with big 12V batteries, but I have still managed to pop at least
one of my 3055's and I have 5 others from that experiment I haven't pulled to check yet... they may be toast too! lol

Thanks for posting that... it's very useful. -t

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on December 29, 2014, 09:30:33 AM

Quote from: tgraca on December 29, 2014, 09:25:10 AM
I just got a bunch of 2222A's in... they finally became readily available and are now actually cheaper than the 3904's. I use the MPSA18's
if I am working with near half an amp and 3055's when I am working with big 12V batteries, but I have still managed to pop at least
one of my 3055's and I have 5 others from that experiment I haven't pulled to check yet... they may be toast too! lol

Thanks for posting that... it's very useful. -t

For work w/ 12V batteries, I would use a power N-MOSFET instead of a 2N3055. There are many 20V - 50V N-MOSFETs that handle lots of current that can be had for less than $1. each in small quantities.

Title: Re: Joule Thief Battery Charger
Post by: tgraca on December 29, 2014, 11:16:59 AM

Quote from: MarkE on December 29, 2014, 09:30:33 AM
For work w/ 12V batteries, I would use a power N-MOSFET instead of a 2N3055. There are many 20V - 50V N-MOSFETs that handle lots of current that can be had for less than $1. each in small quantities.

I have some STP75NF75 TO-220's (75 Volt 80 Amp) that I am going to use to make joule thief battery chargers - 12v lead acid to ~ 9.5 V
Bedini lead alum batteries, but I want to build a joule thief battery charger from solar to the lead acid battery first... it's a fairly complex
project for me and involves running new wire for a pulsed DC lighting system in my home, so I haven't started yet.... I am still goofing
around with these really low powered projects, which is safer and a learning exercise. Also, I haven't worked with mosfets yet, so I will
probably do this with a 10 amp rectifier and the 3055's and save my experimentation with the mosfets for later... We'll see... It seems
there is never enough time in the day! lol

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on December 29, 2014, 04:54:22 PM

My "current" favorite N-mosfet for low voltage applications is IRF3205. They are available for between $0.50 to $1.00 each.

Vdss 55 V
Id 110 A
Rds(on) 0.008 ohm
175 degrees C max operating temperature

There are a "lot" of fake 2n3055s on the market. Even sticking with name brands is no assurance that you are getting a real one. Check the internet for some "dissections" of fake and real ones, the fake ones have a tiny die inside the TO-3 case. Even good ones will vary in their ability to handle high voltage spikes, as I've found.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: allcanadian on December 29, 2014, 06:26:01 PM

@TK

QuoteMy "current" favorite N-mosfet for low voltage applications is IRF3205. They are available for between $0.50 to $1.00 each. Vdss 55 VId 110 ARds(on) 0.008 ohm175 degrees C max operating temperature

I like that series as well and after the ratings you have posted I tend look at the internal diode rise time in V/ns as well as the gate capacitance which can be an issue in regards to switching losses. There are so many things to consider and so many choices it is an ordeal in itself just ordering parts. I have a preference for the IRFP460 for general applications which has marginal ratings at best but has shown to be pretty robust in practice.

I have yet to find a perfect mosfet solution and a gain in optimal characteristics in one area is generally followed by sacrifices made in other area's. I'm always looking for better numbers if someone wants to throw some out.:)

I have lots of 2n3055s kicking around but don't use them anymore although they performed okay as a darlington pair in some cases. Many of the circuits I built at that time had ridiculous rise times inducing stray voltages in every conductor in sight and I could smoke the 3055's on command. Even worse they would not blow completely however the input theshold would change or the emitter/collector would start leaking like a sieve. In any case I never had much luck with them and found them problematic so I don't use them anymore.

AC

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on December 29, 2014, 08:37:29 PM

I almost always put an ultrafast diode from D to S, reverse biased, to supplement the body diode in the mosfet. I don't know if this is "superstitious" or not but it does seem to help keep the mosfets cool.

My favorite 2n3055 JT circuit:

(No, the heat sink isn't needed, it's just for show!)

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: allcanadian on December 29, 2014, 08:53:11 PM

1st beer...On a side note yet another year has almost come to an end and this old dog has leaned a few new tricks which is kind of amazing when I think about it.

My favorite, the zero theshold detector or diode, I learned of quite a few years ago but was always on my mind since I first read the literature on Tesla's quenched arc gaps decades ago. A zero theshold diode is simply a mosfet with the gate pin tied to the source pin and if the applied voltage reverses the mosfet turns off... simple enough. The gain is in the fact a mosfet can have an extremely low resistance (Rds On) compared to a diode as well as a ridiculous conduction or "turn on" voltage to the order of 0.0002v. In the real world this means we can replace a $0.20 diode with a $0.80 mosfet and show a very real gain in efficiency.

As another year is about to transition from one to the next I would also like to introduce a neat little mostly unknown circuit I developed about a decade ago which applies here. I'm sure we all have had issues with the interface between a very high secondary voltage and a lower voltage switch on our primary. The issue being resonance which means nothing in itself as fundamentally we are speaking of time constants. Now the problem I have always had with this form of logic is that everyone would seem to be chasing something which is elusive, that is it is always changing because the world we live in is dynamic or changing and yet we devise static contrivance.

To me the solution was obvious which I see as a precursor to MPPT in that the time constant should be autonomous, one a variable a reflection of the other. The answer, my answer was stupid simple and I simply introduced a switch which was comprised of two mosfets back to back with a common gate. The input is #1 drain tied to #2 source the output #1 source tied to #2 drain the gates connected together. The internal body diodes are obviously back to back which may or may not constitute a negative resistance oscillator in in itself, I digress. The common gate conductor or wire is then connected to the high voltage secondary output by simply wrapping a few turn of the wire around the insulation of the high voltage secondary.

2nd beer, At which point one might understand we have created a simple capacitor through the insulation of the HV secondary driving our mosfet gate(s) and the time constant is determined by the final voltage, the capacitance of the insulation and the distance of the connection from the secondary coil output. The moment the HV rises to a given threshold it induces the gate conductor(s) with a charge some call a displacement current others capacitance some others parasitic capacitance and this charge conducts through the conductor which turns the mosfets off and the duty cycle is the delay in which the change in the charged state at the gates occurs.

It is stupid simple, it is dynamic in that the whole of the apparatus will automatically seek it's own self-resonance regardless of a change in parameters and most important it solves more problems than it creates. 3rd beer, You know you guys have so much damn potential, so much creativity and yet you fight each other tooth and nail to make your point, to reinforce your own beliefs in a world which we know is fluid where our beliefs must change. I know one thing... if my beliefs are not changing then I am not changing and if I am not changing then I am not evolving....there it is...evolution.

Merry Christmas and a happy new year

AC

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on December 29, 2014, 09:36:34 PM

Back to back MOSFETs form bilateral switches. They are very useful where one needs to block current from going either direction between two ports. If you still have a rotating disc drive in your computer, then you have such a switch. They are used to connect a reserve energy capacitor to unload and park the heads upon power loss.

If you are going to use MOSFETs in any environment with voltages greater than Vgss max, it is a really good idea to provide voltage protection.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 29, 2014, 09:46:09 PM

Quote from: MarkE on December 29, 2014, 09:36:34 PM

If you still have a rotating disc drive in your computer, then you have such a switch. They are used to connect a reserve energy capacitor to unload and park the heads upon power loss.

Mark:

What do you mean..."still"? What are you using over there...solid state drives? The price is still too high for me on those but, I hear the read/write times are scary fast.

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on December 29, 2014, 11:28:43 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 29, 2014, 09:46:09 PM
Mark:

What do you mean..."still"? What are you using over there...solid state drives? The price is still too high for me on those but, I hear the read/write times are scary fast.

Bill

Yes, I mostly use solid state drives. Yes, they are wicked fast. They are down to about $0.40 - $0.50/Gbyte from high quality suppliers like Samsung. If you need something to store a video library on then use redundant rotating drives. B&H Photo offers a 250Gb Samsung 840 for $120.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: orbut 3000 on December 29, 2014, 11:44:48 PM

I hope external Thunderbolt SSDs become more affordable and available soon. Ideally sooner than Thunderbolt I is obsoleted by the PTB.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on December 30, 2014, 12:55:03 AM

Quote from: orbut 3000 on December 29, 2014, 11:44:48 PM
I hope external Thunderbolt SSDs become more affordable and available soon. Ideally sooner than Thunderbolt I is obsoleted by the PTB.

Interfaces march on. A consumer grade SSD is more than saturated by USB 3.0 or TB I. I would not worry about the interface so much, but more about the reliability of the drive.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 30, 2014, 09:44:31 PM

Quote from: tgraca on December 29, 2014, 05:13:23 AM
Yeah... I've done that in the past with no success. Bill suggested it to me again last week and I rand about 20 capacitors on that specific
circuit yesterday and per Bill's suggestion, I have had a 20F cap on it for several hours and the voltage reading never got past the source
voltage, which is about 450 mV. The larger capacitance cuts the electric from my earth battery to that circuit's LED. I was thinking of
demonstrating this on a short video later today.

As far as these little inductors/chokes, I measured and noted the resistance, which is significant. I am pretty sure these LC meters can
measure resistance of these things much better than they can measure the capacitance of them. I tore a few apart a few months ago.
They have a tiny ferrite core and very thin wire, which looks like copper, wrapped around them. The covering, which you can see, is
some kind of insulator. I love these things!

I have about 50 circuits all over my place with these chokes/inductors of various inductance - I got a 20-value set of 200 on eBay
earlier this year on eBay for less than $5 USD delivered from China early this year. The 1 mH's show about 30-31 ohms and work well
with the 3904/3906 transistors without the need of a resistor or capacitor in a joule thief. The 1 mH version of this JTC also works very
well with fully charged AA batteries all the way down to dead batteries with about 400 mV, 0.5 mA. The 10 mH seem to choke the light
out of the LED with batteries that have too much power.

I'll try to find and demonstrate a "simple" way to test capacitance on these and my other inductors/coils. In case you haven't seen this,
here's a fun view of my mess (I mean lab)! lol

http://youtu.be/_36V25kDTEU (http://youtu.be/_36V25kDTEU)

Just for clarity, what I suggested on the EB topic was to use a large value supercap in parallel between your EB and JT circuit. This captures those spikes and also allows you to store usable power to be able to run devices that you would otherwise not be able to run.

Example: My dmm shows about 1.9 volts or so from my EB. I can charge my 2.7 volt, 650 F cap fully so...either my dmm can not read the spiky voltage properly, or, the cap is storing all of the energy from the EB, including the spikes to get to 2.7 volts. Maybe both?

What Mark was suggesting, I believe, was a cap inline with the base and the coil. Gadgetmall did this a long time ago, as did several others. I believe he was using a ceramic cap for this. As a matter of fact, I have a bunch of ceramic caps over here...some have numbers on them (code?) some are blank. This was why I purchased my meter so I could test the values on them and use them like Mark was suggesting. Of course, my meter is useless for this so I never have tried this to date.

I hope I have explained this ok.

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: allcanadian on December 31, 2014, 12:25:21 AM

@Bill

QuoteWhat Mark was suggesting, I believe, was a cap inline with the base and the coil. Gadgetmall did this a long time ago, as did several others. I believe he was using a ceramic cap for this. As a matter of fact, I have a bunch of ceramic caps over here...some have numbers on them (code?) some are blank. This was why I purchased my meter so I could test the values on them and use them like Mark was suggesting. Of course, my meter is useless for this so I never have tried this to date.

I would agree completely and the current through the base of the transistor can be nearly as high as the collector/emitter in a bad setup. This is why I made the transition to mosfets using an open gate structure because the gate capacitance is generally very small. Make no mistake that initially it's a real bugger to even get it to run but once you do make the jump the gain in efficiency is well worth it.

I started simple, take a N channel mosfet in which a positive charge on the gate turns it on and a negative charge turns it off. Connect the drain pin from the mosfet to the (+) of a 12v battery terminal and a low wattage/high resistance 12v light (say 1-5w) off the source pin which then goes to the 12v battery (-) terminal.

If you use an alligator clip off the mosfet gate and hold the other end of the lead then the positive charge of your body turns the light on. Now keep holding on to the alligator clip lead and touch the negative terminal of the battery with your other hand... the light turns off. This tells us the whole of our body and the alligator clip to the gate now has a negative charge from the battery. You have just invented a charge detector and this same principal can be used to drive a JT.

If fact I don't even make a hard connection in most cases and a simple wrap of wire around the insulation of a medium to high voltage output will switch the mosfet. The thing to remember is that the charged state(+ or -) of the mosfet gate determines whether the source/drain is conducting(on) or not (off). To be honest I haven't even touched a transistor in years because I find them to be a real pain in the optimus rear endus. The real trick is gate conductor placement because we are dealing with the charged state and we have to start thinking on that level, not current but the charged state which is relative because we are speaking of an electric field. Electrostatics...

Try it and I think you will like it, initially the learning curve is high however once you get a feel for it I don't think you will go back to transistors. The simple charge detector I just described changed my perspective completely, it was that other part of the equation which seemed to be missing.

AC

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on December 31, 2014, 09:28:48 AM

Yep. Here's part of a basic tutorial series I made to try to explain to a "certain someone" how her circuit components actually work. Like water off a duck's back that effort was, but some other people may have found these demonstrations useful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKstLQYayNA

Title: Troll Queen
Post by: tgraca on December 31, 2014, 09:52:59 AM

Quote from: TinselKoala on December 31, 2014, 09:28:48 AM
Yep. Here's part of a basic tutorial series I made to try to explain to a "certain someone" how her circuit components actually work. Like water off a duck's back that effort was, but some other people may have found these demonstrations useful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKstLQYayNA

I love the simplicity. And those rails... I immediately got a mental image of a choo choo train! lol
PS - Glad you shared that. I am going through your videos. You have many many many... nice work!!!
... and thanks! -teo
PSS - just watched some more and found some mention of a troll queen... is she still tormenting you. If not, please bring her back.
I can't get enough of this! lmao! I could watch these videos all day!

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: tgraca on December 31, 2014, 10:00:41 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 30, 2014, 09:44:31 PM
Just for clarity, what I suggested on the EB topic was to use a large value supercap in parallel between your EB and JT circuit. This captures those spikes and also allows you to store usable power to be able to run devices that you would otherwise not be able to run.

Example: My dmm shows about 1.9 volts or so from my EB. I can charge my 2.7 volt, 650 F cap fully so...either my dmm can not read the spiky voltage properly, or, the cap is storing all of the energy from the EB, including the spikes to get to 2.7 volts. Maybe both?

What Mark was suggesting, I believe, was a cap inline with the base and the coil. Gadgetmall did this a long time ago, as did several others. I believe he was using a ceramic cap for this. As a matter of fact, I have a bunch of ceramic caps over here...some have numbers on them (code?) some are blank. This was why I purchased my meter so I could test the values on them and use them like Mark was suggesting. Of course, my meter is useless for this so I never have tried this to date.

I hope I have explained this ok.

Bill

I had tried running a variety of configurations of my JT circuits without load, except for a cap, and I always get a higher voltage, but I haven't tried that with the 2 earth grounds for anything above 100 uF. I like the idea of JT circuits as battery chargers and need to get back on that. I am still finding new ways to fail with this earth battery stuff! I thought of another possibility and test this morning... I give it a 1% chance of success based on my past performance! lol
Thanks Bill!

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on December 31, 2014, 10:02:15 AM

Quote from: TinselKoala on December 31, 2014, 09:28:48 AM
Yep. Here's part of a basic tutorial series I made to try to explain to a "certain someone" how her circuit components actually work. Like water off a duck's back that effort was, but some other people may have found these demonstrations useful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKstLQYayNA

When will you be publishing the "Complete Secrets of MOSFET Common Source Biasing" instructional book?

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: tinman on December 31, 2014, 10:57:40 AM

Quote from: MarkE on December 31, 2014, 10:02:15 AM
When will you be publishing the "Complete Secrets of MOSFET Common Source Biasing" instructional book?

Sounds Peter/Arron to me.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on December 31, 2014, 11:02:10 AM

Hmmmm.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on December 31, 2014, 11:14:00 AM

Quote from: MarkE on December 31, 2014, 10:02:15 AM
When will you be publishing the "Complete Secrets of MOSFET Common Source Biasing" instructional book?

Heh... well, there is the playlist, which starts with this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_rgB3WlXtU&index=1&list=PLml9VdOeqKa8hSDVrRWjmJ2WxgzRvMt7V

;)

(In this list are some of the videos that Ainslie accused me of faking! Can you imagine that! I consider it a high honor to be accused of fakery... by HER !!! )

Title: Re: Troll Queen
Post by: TinselKoala on December 31, 2014, 11:27:14 AM

Quote from: tgraca on December 31, 2014, 09:52:59 AM
I love the simplicity. And those rails... I immediately got a mental image of a choo choo train! lol
PS - Glad you shared that. I am going through your videos. You have many many many... nice work!!!
... and thanks! -teo
PSS - just watched some more and found some mention of a troll queen... is she still tormenting you. If not, please bring her back.
I can't get enough of this! lmao! I could watch these videos all day!

Thanks for watching! Yes, there are a lot of them aren't there. A lot of them are dealing with the "troll queen" but there are lots on other topics too.

No, it appears that RA hasn't made a post on her own forum in over a month and a half. This is a new record, by a large margin. It could simply mean that she has lost her password, which has happened before (she has at least 4 YT accounts because she keeps losing passwords and has to open a new one). But it could also be something more serious. I sincerely hope that she is not in bad health, or dead, but those are also distinct possibilities. One day I'll probably just disappear too, for the same reason.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on December 31, 2014, 12:18:55 PM

Surveillance reports that she is alive and well.

Title: Re: Troll Queen
Post by: tgraca on December 31, 2014, 12:35:15 PM

Quote from: TinselKoala on December 31, 2014, 11:27:14 AM
Thanks for watching! Yes, there are a lot of them aren't there. A lot of them are dealing with the "troll queen" but there are lots on other topics too.

No, it appears that RA hasn't made a post on her own forum in over a month and a half. This is a new record, by a large margin. It could simply mean that she has lost her password, which has happened before (she has at least 4 YT accounts because she keeps losing passwords and has to open a new one). But it could also be something more serious. I sincerely hope that she is not in bad health, or dead, but those are also distinct possibilities. One day I'll probably just disappear too, for the same reason.

You know... I had an experiment planned for today, but I can stop watching and laughing. What a great way to end the year. I know
I am a little slow at learning new electronical type thingies, but this picture explains why. lol
PS - I am also learning while laughing. Thanks again!

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: allcanadian on December 31, 2014, 01:24:36 PM

@TK

QuoteYep. Here's part of a basic tutorial series I made to try to explain to a "certain someone" how her circuit components actually work. Like water off a duck's back that effort was, but some other people may have found these demonstrations useful.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKstLQYayNA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKstLQYayNA)

LOL, awesome, you know I was thinking of making exactly the same kind of video the other day because there is no substitute for a hands on demonstration. We can use words to try to explain what we have done and how things work but at the end of the day people have to go through the motions for themselves, I mean that's the fun part isn't it?.

It would seem these most fundamental principals are not being understood in the proper context because people aren't going through the motions and getting their hands dirty. It means sitting at the bench and doing the most basic experiments as in your video and playing around with it until we understand what is happening and why.

two thumbs up

AC

Title: Long Running Joule Thief With Just 2 Capacitors
Post by: tgraca on December 31, 2014, 05:19:00 PM

TinselKoala, I watched some of your Akula replications and didn't really get it. Is the big deal that it lasts a while on a capacitor?
I have a very simple circuit with two 3F caps, a resistor, a bolt wound bifilar type coil and a 3904 transistor that runs an LED for about
2.5 hours on a 5 second charge, but I didn't think it was a big enough deal to share in a video. Is it?

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on December 31, 2014, 05:28:46 PM

Quote from: MarkE on December 31, 2014, 12:18:55 PM
Surveillance reports that she is alive and well.

That's nice. It is completely "out of character" for her to refrain so long from posting, though. Does "surveillance" have any explanation for that, I wonder?

Title: Re: Long Running Joule Thief With Just 2 Capacitors
Post by: TinselKoala on December 31, 2014, 05:33:36 PM

Quote from: tgraca on December 31, 2014, 05:19:00 PM
TinselKoala, I watched some of your Akula replications and didn't really get it. Is the big deal that it lasts a while on a capacitor?
I have a very simple circuit with two 3F caps, a resistor, a bolt wound bifilar type coil and a 3904 transistor that runs an LED for about
2.5 hours on a 5 second charge, but I didn't think it was a big enough deal to share in a video. Is it?

Ah... but the device as demonstrated by Akula does not run down _at all_ , it is self-running, according to the claims of Akula/Ruslan/Stivep. The main "replication" that I made of one of Akula's circuits produces identical waveforms to his on the scope, yet runs down immediately when its supply power is disconnected, or in a few seconds using a larger capacitor. Akula's just keeps on running. This is why I think it has concealed batteries inside one of the capacitor cans, which would make it perform just as he shows, waveforms and all.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: tgraca on December 31, 2014, 05:43:41 PM

TinselKoala - I finally ran my experiment today after spending most of my day laughing at your little drama with the troll queen.
Although the earth doesn't like my idea of running earth batteries in series, multiple earth batteries within inches of each other
can power my simplified joule thief circuits with only about a 5% loss in power. I haven't tested further distances more then 2"
apart, but there's your forever lights. A few inches of copper pipe and a few feet of aluminum wire about 6" deep. I'll do further
tests and verify, but I could imagine replacing those obtrusive solar lights with this technology for about $1 each
(plus free labor - mine)

PS - re: "This is why I think it has concealed batteries inside one of the capacitor cans, which would make it perform just as he shows, waveforms and all." - I didn't get this at all from your videos...

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on December 31, 2014, 06:22:55 PM

Quote from: TinselKoala on December 31, 2014, 05:28:46 PM
That's nice. It is completely "out of character" for her to refrain so long from posting, though. Does "surveillance" have any explanation for that, I wonder?

I can put in new paperwork asking for more details. Everywhere there is so much red tape.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 31, 2014, 07:52:13 PM

RE: Little Miss Mosfet

I think I still have beer somewhere down inside my keyboard from when I spit it out laughing while reading TK's above nick name for Rose.

That one will always remain a classic.

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on January 01, 2015, 12:05:46 AM

Piratebill, my Mouser order came in. I hooked up a PAM2803 to one of those Harbor Freight lights after taking out the current limit resistor that was in series with the 24 LED array and driving the LEDs at 200mA. At 2.4V for the batteries the current draw is about 360mA. That means that with a pair of AA alkaline cells in series you should get 6-7 hours.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 01, 2015, 12:47:05 PM

Quote from: MarkE on January 01, 2015, 12:05:46 AM
Piratebill, my Mouser order came in. I hooked up a PAM2803 to one of those Harbor Freight lights after taking out the current limit resistor that was in series with the 24 LED array and driving the LEDs at 200mA. At 2.4V for the batteries the current draw is about 360mA. That means that with a pair of AA alkaline cells in series you should get 6-7 hours.

Mark:

That sounds pretty good to me. So, the PAM2803 can run on 2 cells in series? In other words, I could modify the HF light to have 1 AAA in parallel and leave the other 2 in series and get an even longer run time...right?

I will have to order some of those chips. Thank you for testing this and telling me.

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on January 01, 2015, 12:59:57 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 01, 2015, 12:47:05 PM
Mark:

That sounds pretty good to me. So, the PAM2803 can run on 2 cells in series? In other words, I could modify the HF light to have 1 AAA in parallel and leave the other 2 in series and get an even longer run time...right?

I will have to order some of those chips. Thank you for testing this and telling me.

Bill

You would use two AA's in series period. The PAM2803 is designed to operate from a pair of AA alkaline or NiMH cells in series.

Title: Mini Joule Thief Battery Charger
Post by: tgraca on January 02, 2015, 07:07:28 AM

I have been playing with this on and off for over a week now.
Here's a summary of my final 6 tests with the 2N2222A transistor, which in previous tests performed better than the 3904.

Title: Re: Mini Joule Thief Battery Charger
Post by: MarkE on January 02, 2015, 10:50:05 AM

Quote from: tgraca on January 02, 2015, 07:07:28 AM
I have been playing with this on and off for over a week now.
Here's a summary of my final 6 tests with the 2N2222A transistor, which in previous tests performed better than the 3904.

2N2222A's do better at higher currents than 2N3904A's.

Title: Re: Long Running Joule Thief With Just 2 Capacitors
Post by: tgraca on January 08, 2015, 02:47:21 AM

Quote from: TinselKoala on December 31, 2014, 05:33:36 PM
Ah... but the device as demonstrated by Akula does not run down _at all_ , it is self-running, according to the claims of Akula/Ruslan/Stivep. The main "replication" that I made of one of Akula's circuits produces identical waveforms to his on the scope, yet runs down immediately when its supply power is disconnected, or in a few seconds using a larger capacitor. Akula's just keeps on running. This is why I think it has concealed batteries inside one of the capacitor cans, which would make it perform just as he shows, waveforms and all.

I saw your comment on OU's most recent YouTube video and want to show you definitive proof that there is such thing as a free energy
device. It's in line with one of Eric Dollard's off-hand suggestions on how to get free energy. These are just Russian Kids from a couple
years ago that have definitively PROVEN the idea, so... I'll hear no more of your pessimistic views on the possibility of free energy, eh!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqRT7J86rco

huh? huh? lol

Title: Re: Long Running Joule Thief With Just 2 Capacitors
Post by: TinselKoala on January 08, 2015, 09:28:40 AM

Quote from: tgraca on January 08, 2015, 02:47:21 AM
I saw your comment on OU's most recent YouTube video and want to show you definitive proof that there is such thing as a free energy
device. It's in line with one of Eric Dollard's off-hand suggestions on how to get free energy. These are just Russian Kids from a couple
years ago that have definitively PROVEN the idea, so... I'll hear no more of your pessimistic views on the possibility of free energy, eh!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqRT7J86rco (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqRT7J86rco)

huh? huh? lol

Heh.... Well, one thing is for certain... that's as close as Eric Dollars...er, Dollard will ever get to "free energy". In his case "free energy" means energy that someone else is paying for... and from what I've heard, it comes in the form of a fine white powder.

Title: Re: Long Running Joule Thief With Just 2 Capacitors
Post by: tgraca on January 08, 2015, 09:42:53 AM

Quote from: TinselKoala on January 08, 2015, 09:28:40 AM
Heh.... Well, one thing is for certain... that's as close as Eric Dollars...er, Dollard will ever get to "free energy". In his case "free energy" means energy that someone else is paying for... and from what I've heard, it comes in the form of a fine white powder.

That's not hearsay... there's a video out there with that coming from his own lips. I still love his lectures though. He is a powerhouse of good
information. Anyway.... I thought that might wake you up. Good morning from VA! -t

PS - I have a new circuit that has a capacitor and a battery. Should I hide another battery under the capacitor and claim free energy? - teo

Hey TK! Sounds like fun! If you like, I will mail you everything you need to replicate the 3F version of this circuit, including the hand wound
coil in the picture, which I used for my testing. If you use that coil, there will be no confusion, plus you can unwind it and reuse the wire
later... it's yours... don't forget to check for batteries! lol

I am not claiming any overunity here. This was just a learning tool for me. It does light an LED for over 2 hours with a 5 second charge from four 1.2 V NiMh batteries. I would send you some 20F's, which last about 14 hours on a 2 Volt charge, but I am using all of mine at the
moment. It usually took a bit over 10 seconds to get the 20F's to charge to 2 volts. - teo

PS - is that an ugly coil or what! Let the fun begin!
PSS - I watched your video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQi4jz2puio - it looks like my work in this circuit is like I thought - no
big deal. It looks like your circuit would run an hour or 2 with just one cap.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 18, 2015, 09:15:01 PM

If anyone is interested, BigClive of Joule Thief fame (He created the name and made the first of these types of circuits as we know them, even though a guy in Russia made something similar in the 60's) has a Youtube channel:https://www.youtube.com/user/bigclivedotcom (https://www.youtube.com/user/bigclivedotcom)

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on January 25, 2015, 04:17:10 AM

An absolute _must watch_ video from Dave at EEVblog:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoqF3gjLIyI

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on January 25, 2015, 05:28:00 AM

Quote from: TinselKoala on January 25, 2015, 04:17:10 AM
An absolute _must watch_ video from Dave at EEVblog:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoqF3gjLIyI

It was an entertaining rant. I hope his point about the need for reliable measurements gets through to at least some people.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 25, 2015, 11:30:13 AM

Quote from: TinselKoala on January 25, 2015, 04:17:10 AM
An absolute _must watch_ video from Dave at EEVblog:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoqF3gjLIyI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoqF3gjLIyI)

I have subscribed to this guy for years and he is excellent. Man, I would hate to be that poor bastard making those stupid claims on his blog, ha ha. We obviously have many circuits here that are far more efficient than that guy's, and we know that they are not "bending the laws of physics".

I hope MileHigh sees this video, he will love it.

Of course, I suppose there will be some that claim that Dave is a paid shill for big oil or something.

Thanks for posting this TK, I have so many subscriptions over at Youtube, it might have been quite a while before I saw this.

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on January 25, 2015, 12:53:01 PM

While the ranting was very entertaining, the important part of the video in my opinion is the _process_ : Dave redrew the schematic according to an easy-to-understand layout convention, he analyzed the circuit using standard engineering principles and knowledge (referring to data sheets and other solid information), he predicted the waveforms and other readings, and then he went on to test his predictions and demonstrate that his predictions were correct by actual measurements.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on January 25, 2015, 01:38:59 PM

Quote from: TinselKoala on January 25, 2015, 12:53:01 PM
While the ranting was very entertaining, the important part of the video in my opinion is the _process_ : Dave redrew the schematic according to an easy-to-understand layout convention, he analyzed the circuit using standard engineering principles and knowledge (referring to data sheets and other solid information), he predicted the waveforms and other readings, and then he went on to test his predictions and demonstrate that his predictions were correct by actual measurements.

I thought that it was instructive that he wrote down the bullet item claims and then showed how almost all of them were flat false.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 25, 2015, 03:35:26 PM

So, does this mean that Joule Thief circuits are NOT overunity?

Damn!

But seriously, I did leave a comment to Dave on how I achieve "free light" using similar circuits, (using "dead" batteries saved from the trash heap) but that obviously it is not O.U.

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on January 25, 2015, 04:18:41 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 25, 2015, 03:35:26 PM
So, does this mean that Joule Thief circuits are NOT overunity?

Damn!

But seriously, I did leave a comment to Dave on how I achieve "free light" using similar circuits, (using "dead" batteries saved from the trash heap) but that obviously it is not O.U.

Bill

To me increased efficiency is as free as things get. So if you get x number of lumen hours from a AA battery with one circuit, and x plus y hours with another, then the "free" y lumen hours are what count. My colleague has developed some insanely high efficiency LED circuits that work with a single AA Alkaline cell but they are commercial developments so I cannot share them. But he has shown me ~500 lumen hours from an LED driver circuit using one AA alkaline cell.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 25, 2015, 04:34:46 PM

Quote from: MarkE on January 25, 2015, 04:18:41 PM
To me increased efficiency is as free as things get. So if you get x number of lumen hours from a AA battery with one circuit, and x plus y hours with another, then the "free" y lumen hours are what count. My colleague has developed some insanely high efficiency LED circuits that work with a single AA Alkaline cell but they are commercial developments so I cannot share them. But he has shown me ~500 lumen hours from an LED driver circuit using one AA alkaline cell.

That sounds exactly what I was attempting to try. But, seeing how cheap electronics are from China, packaging and other expenses, I did not see how I could do this.

I wish him good luck as the main reason I was trying to do this was...even though we all have seen what the JT circuit can do...no one I know of has ever marketed a device that can run on a "dead" battery. I have modified flashlights to run on a single AA bat. that were brighter than the original using 3 AAs. It would also last longer. But, bringing something like this to market when you can buy an led flashlight for $2.00 including batteries is hard to compete with.

I have not given up, I am just not as excited about doing this as I once was. Of course, I could get China manufactures to produce whatever I want but, this would take an order of at least several thousand units. (Understandably)

Mark, please keep us posted on your friend's progress, or at least, let us know when his product is available. This would be a great step forward getting this type of thing in the commercial market.

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: synchro1 on January 25, 2015, 06:20:03 PM

Quote from MarkE,

"To me increased efficiency is as free as things get. So if you get x number of lumen hours from a AA battery with one circuit, and x plus y hours with another, then the "free" y lumen hours are what count. My colleague has developed some insanely high efficiency LED circuits that work with a single AA Alkaline cell but they are commercial developments so I cannot share them. But he has shown me ~500 lumen hours from an LED driver circuit using one AA alkaline cell".

The relationship of pulse frequency to LED brightness is the same as voltage. Increasing DC pulse frequency can increase LED brightness the same as increasing voltage. This frequency to luminosity proportion is outside Ohm's law P=V.A. The problem is that increasing LED brightness with higher pulse frequency shortens bulb life. The 500 lumens MarkE is bragging about from his "Secret Source" is probably just burning the bulb out. MarkE posted over 4000 comments in the space of one calender year. He's burning a hole through the forum the same way!

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 25, 2015, 06:31:10 PM

Quote from: synchro1 on January 25, 2015, 06:20:03 PM
Quote from MarkE,

"To me increased efficiency is as free as things get. So if you get x number of lumen hours from a AA battery with one circuit, and x plus y hours with another, then the "free" y lumen hours are what count. My colleague has developed some insanely high efficiency LED circuits that work with a single AA Alkaline cell but they are commercial developments so I cannot share them. But he has shown me ~500 lumen hours from an LED driver circuit using one AA alkaline cell".

The relationship of pulse frequency to LED brightness is the same as voltage. Increasing DC pulse frequency can increase LED brightness the same as increasing voltage. This frequency to luminosity proportion is outside Ohm's law P=V.A. The problem is that increasing LED brightness with higher pulse frequency shortens bulb life. The 500 lumens MarkE is bragging about from his "Secret Source" is probably just burning the bulb out. MarkE posted over 4000 comments in the space of one calender year. He's burning a hole through the forum the same way!

I doubt that you are correct. I have many high voltage/high frequency JT's here running in my home now for over 5 years and....guess what? No led burnout.

I am even using some commercial bulbs in my lights, like the Lights of America 24 chip led bulbs and ...they are just fine with 400 volts at high freq. My bedside table uses 2 of those bulbs and...I have been using it every night for many years and...the bulbs still work. (still using the original D cell battery also)

Do you have any real evidence to support what you have claimed?

If so, please post it.

Thanks,

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on January 25, 2015, 07:11:42 PM

Quote from: synchro1 on January 25, 2015, 06:20:03 PM
Quote from MarkE,

"To me increased efficiency is as free as things get. So if you get x number of lumen hours from a AA battery with one circuit, and x plus y hours with another, then the "free" y lumen hours are what count. My colleague has developed some insanely high efficiency LED circuits that work with a single AA Alkaline cell but they are commercial developments so I cannot share them. But he has shown me ~500 lumen hours from an LED driver circuit using one AA alkaline cell".

The relationship of pulse frequency to LED brightness is the same as voltage. Increasing DC pulse frequency can increase LED brightness the same as increasing voltage. This frequency to luminosity proportion is outside Ohm's law P=V.A. The problem is that increasing LED brightness with higher pulse frequency shortens bulb life. The 500 lumens MarkE is bragging about from his "Secret Source" is probably just burning the bulb out. MarkE posted over 4000 comments in the space of one calender year. He's burning a hole through the forum the same way!

No, LED brightness is a nearly linear function of LED current multiplied by duty cycle. LED brightness has a very non-linear relationship to LED drive voltage. He is getting ~500 lumen hours from a single alkaline AA cell. I did not state the brightness. I did not say he was getting 500 lumens from one LED, although that is feasible for a single modern 3W LED that would require a heat sink and it is not what he is doing. He is running his LED well within its safe limits.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on January 25, 2015, 07:15:59 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 25, 2015, 06:31:10 PM
I doubt that you are correct. I have many high voltage/high frequency JT's here running in my home now for over 5 years and....guess what? No led burnout.

I am even using some commercial bulbs in my lights, like the Lights of America 24 chip led bulbs and ...they are just fine with 400 volts at high freq. My bedside table uses 2 of those bulbs and...I have been using it every night for many years and...the bulbs still work. (still using the original D cell battery also)

Do you have any real evidence to support what you have claimed?

If so, please post it.

Thanks,

Bill

No he does not.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: synchro1 on January 25, 2015, 08:12:20 PM

Output (lumen) per Watt is even worse than lumen per mA. As mA increase Vf also increases so the Vf x I product increases at a faster rate per lumen than just I does. So, again, maximum lumen/Watt is achieved at low mA compared to rated mA and lumen/Watt efficiency improves with decreasing current.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: synchro1 on January 25, 2015, 08:56:13 PM

There's two ways to cause problems increasing lumens in LEDS, both involve running too much current through them: Firstly; By raising the voltage which raises current draw, and Secondly; Raising the frequency with the same result. Running too much current through the LED wastes power and shortens the bulb's lifespan. Most of the apparent savings from increasing frequency and cutting duty cycle come from miscalculations. There's no way to beat the peak efficiency watts per Lumen ratio that the bulbs are rated for. The bottom line is, you're better off increasing luminosity by adding extra bulbs to the array and lowering the current input. I demonstrated that in my multiple LED video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP39OoaSQb0

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 25, 2015, 09:26:25 PM

Quote from: synchro1 on January 25, 2015, 08:56:13 PM
There's two ways to cause problems increasing lumens in LEDS, both involve running too much current through them: Firstly; By raising the voltage which raises current draw, and Secondly; Raising the frequency with the same result. Running too much current through the LED wastes power and shortens the bulb's lifespan. Most of the apparent savings from increasing frequency and cutting duty cycle come from miscalculations. There's no way to beat the peak efficiency watts per Lumen ratio that the bulbs are rated for. The bottom line is, you're better off increasing luminosity by adding extra bulbs to the array and lowering the current input. I demonstrated that in my multiple LED video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP39OoaSQb0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP39OoaSQb0)

But, I use very little current. Only high voltage at a high freq. This is why my lights last so many hours on "dead" AA batteries.

Now, I know this is a little bit of a parlor trick in that the leds are flashing on/off at about 30,000 times/sec. So, if the duty cycle is close to 50%, then they are off as much as they are on. But, our lights in our homes flash on/off at 60 times/sec and no one notices this so, I do not think of this as a real trick.

As far as calculations go...I suck at math and I only observe what my lights can do.....I do very little predicting. If/when any of my leds actually burn out, I will let you know. I did fry my share of leds back in my early days, the smell was terrible. But, that was long before I discovered (not invented by me) these high voltage/high freq. circuits.

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: synchro1 on January 25, 2015, 09:45:04 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 25, 2015, 09:26:25 PM
But, I use very little current. Only high voltage at a high freq. This is why my lights last so many hours on "dead" AA batteries.

Now, I know this is a little bit of a parlor trick in that the leds are flashing on/off at about 30,000 times/sec. So, if the duty cycle is close to 50%, then they are off as much as they are on. But, our lights in our homes flash on/off at 60 times/sec and no one notices this so, I do not think of this as a real trick.

As far as calculations go...I suck at math and I only observe what my lights can do.....I do very little predicting. If/when any of my leds actually burn out, I will let you know. I did fry my share of leds back in my early days, the smell was terrible. But, that was long before I discovered (not invented by me) these high voltage/high freq. circuits.

Bill

@Pirate88179,

Here's how it really Works:

lumen/Watt efficiency improves with decreasing current. I have more videos, but if you doubled your number of bulbs and lowered your voltage and frequency by half, you would generate more lumens per watt. Et cetera! The relationshhip is not directly proportional. Cutting power in half and doubling the bulbs would result in less overall light, but much higher efficiency. You could probably get the same light with twice the bulbs for 10-20% less input.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on January 25, 2015, 10:59:56 PM

Quote from: synchro1 on January 25, 2015, 08:12:20 PM
Output (lumen) per Watt is even worse than lumen per mA. As mA increase Vf also increases so the Vf x I product increases at a faster rate per lumen than just I does. So, again, maximum lumen/Watt is achieved at low mA compared to rated mA and lumen/Watt efficiency improves with decreasing current.

I²R loss is no secret. Minimizing rms current in an LED does yield maximum lumens/Watt. That means high duty-cycles, or better yet DC drive is more efficient than the same average current at a lower duty-cycle. However, from a color rendition standpoint, it is better to use the same peak current and modulate the duty-cycle than it is to drive with different DC current levels. Then there is the problem of the driving circuit efficiency. Those cheap garden stick lights use circuits that tend to be very efficient delivering power to the LEDs but do so in pulses with very poor form factors into cheap LEDs, so that the overall input power to light output is nothing to write home about.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on January 25, 2015, 11:07:56 PM

Quote from: synchro1 on January 25, 2015, 08:56:13 PM
There's two ways to cause problems increasing lumens in LEDS, both involve running too much current through them: Firstly; By raising the voltage which raises current draw, and Secondly; Raising the frequency with the same result. Running too much current through the LED wastes power and shortens the bulb's lifespan. Most of the apparent savings from increasing frequency and cutting duty cycle come from miscalculations. There's no way to beat the peak efficiency watts per Lumen ratio that the bulbs are rated for. The bottom line is, you're better off increasing luminosity by adding extra bulbs to the array and lowering the current input. I demonstrated that in my multiple LED video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP39OoaSQb0

Raising frequency increasing switching loss in LEDs that are pulsed, and in the switching circuitry that pulses them. But running LEDs from rectified switching supplies, the storage components get smaller and cheaper with high switching frequencies. Hard switching converters are available that are very efficient: upwards of 95% while switching at 1MHz to 3MHz. It is true that more LEDs in parallel sharing the same current reduces I²R loss. However it is also true that unless the LEDs are bin sorted, that brightness variation can be a problem. There are lots of ways to go wrong with LED efficiency. The: design of the luminaire, choice of the LED(s), and amount of heat sinking all play big roles before one ever gets to the driver electronics.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on January 25, 2015, 11:11:38 PM

Quote from: synchro1 on January 25, 2015, 09:45:04 PM
@Pirate88179,

Here's how it really Works:

lumen/Watt efficiency improves with decreasing current. I have more videos, but if you doubled your number of bulbs and lowered your voltage and frequency by half, you would generate more lumens per watt. Et cetera! The relationshhip is not directly proportional. Cutting power in half and doubling the bulbs would result in less overall light, but much higher efficiency. You could probably get the same light with twice the bulbs for 10-20% less input.

It really depends on where one is on the V-I curve for the particular LEDs that one is using. When 1W capable LEDs were $5. each a few years ago, using multiple LEDs was cost prohibitive. These days there are many applications where it is actually cheaper to use multiple smaller LEDs and one gets the benefit of higher efficiency. The catch is matching the LEDs for an acceptable appearance.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: SeaMonkey on January 26, 2015, 12:29:40 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179
But, I use very little current. Only high voltage at a high freq. This is why my lights last so many hours on "dead" AA batteries.

Do you see the 'problem' or apparent contradiction
in your statement above? :o ::)

Quote from: Pirate88179
...
As far as calculations go...I suck at math and I only observe what my lights can do.....I do very little predicting. If/when any of my leds actually burn out, I will let you know. I did fry my share of leds back in my early days, the smell was terrible.

The above statements partially explain the
apparent contradiction. 8) ;)

Quote from: Pirate88179
But, that was long before I discovered (not invented by me) these high voltage/high freq. circuits.

Those of us who are experienced in the 'art'
understand what you're driving at but others
may wonder what you mean by "high voltage"
in the above quote since you've already explained
that the source of energy is "dead" AA cells. ??? ;)

Where is the high voltage? :o ;)

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on January 26, 2015, 02:20:39 AM

It is a reasonable guess that the "high voltage" is something he measures when the LEDs are not connected. It is also a reasonable guess that it is less than 50V peak, which is certainly much greater than the three volts required to run a white LED.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on January 26, 2015, 03:53:49 AM

Not necessarily. It all depends. Here's a no-load scopeshot from my HVJT that runs 6 NE-2s in series on one AAA battery.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on January 26, 2015, 04:38:17 AM

That's only because you used a transistor that does not breakdown before the neon bulbs fire. A 2N3904 or 2N2222A as most would use both breakdown at 40V (some 2N2222A's will do 50V). I suspect that your 200V/div is really 20V/div. It should only take about 65V-90V to fire an NE-2. At 20V/div your pulses would be about 84V, and ~2us/260us * 84V = 0.64V*T_INTERVAL which is within the ball park of a AAA battery that is down to 0.8V at 80% efficiency.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on January 26, 2015, 05:10:06 AM

Nope, the 200v/div is the actual true value. I just checked it again with a different oscilloscope and a 100x attenuating probe. No load, the AAA battery reads 1.32 V and with the circuit operating it reads 0.96 V, and the spikes go to about 750V. (With a 10x probe and the channel set to 50v per div the spikes go off the screen at the top.)

And I just put in a fresh battery, circuit off Vbatt 1.53 V, circuit on Vbatt 1.15 V, and with all six neons in place and glowing brightly the spikes top out at over 800 V.

ETA: I just realized I didn't have the "CAL" knob turned all the way CW on the channel. A remeasurement with the CAL knob set correctly shows the spikes going to just under 900 V.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on January 26, 2015, 05:29:56 AM

Quote from: TinselKoala on January 26, 2015, 05:10:06 AM
Nope, the 200v/div is the actual true value. I just checked it again with a different oscilloscope and a 100x attenuating probe. No load, the AAA battery reads 1.32 V and with the circuit operating it reads 0.96 V, and the spikes go to about 750V. (With a 10x probe and the channel set to 50v per div the spikes go off the screen at the top.)

And I just put in a fresh battery, circuit off Vbatt 1.53 V, circuit on Vbatt 1.15 V, and with all six neons in place and glowing brightly the spikes top out at over 800 V.

Then I have three questions: Is the scope waveform taken from the collector to the emitter of the 2N3055? Are the NE-2's on the secondary side of a step-up transformer? Are the NE-2's wired in series or parallel? If the circuit uses a step-up transformer, and the scope waveform is taken on the secondary side of that transformer then the V*T balance estimates will be off by the turns ratio.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on January 26, 2015, 05:43:04 AM

The NE-2s are in _series_ and the probe is across the series stack. The circuit is below, it's a standard JT, more or less, with a special inductor. Sorry, I didn't indicate the phase dots on the inductor diagram.

ETA: the extra components near the battery on the photo of the board are a wireless power receiver, not in the circuit at all for these tests, and of course without its antenna loop installed.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on January 26, 2015, 07:25:24 AM

Quote from: TinselKoala on January 26, 2015, 05:43:04 AM
The NE-2s are in _series_ and the probe is across the series stack. The circuit is below, it's a standard JT, more or less, with a special inductor. Sorry, I didn't indicate the phase dots on the inductor diagram.

ETA: the extra components near the battery on the photo of the board are a wireless power receiver, not in the circuit at all for these tests, and of course without its antenna loop installed.

The 1:10 step-up transformer explains the 10X voltage.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: ramset on January 26, 2015, 09:17:34 AM

TinselKoala
here you have a few interesting Vids that show some interesting effects
as a builder yourself ,would you explain this acceleration in the second video
to some of our builders here working on acceleration effects and voltage increases

I know the second Vid [with the motor ] has other "snake oil" purposes ,but you also are showing acceleration under load,
it would be good to discuss this here,I know other builders respect your work.

Voltage https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLsOCYPCvGc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLsOCYPCvGc)

acceleration https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9x2YfA9LU5s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9x2YfA9LU5s)

When you have time and in the appropriate Thread ??

respectfully

Chet

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on January 26, 2015, 03:32:14 PM

Quote from: MarkE on January 26, 2015, 07:25:24 AM
The 1:10 step-up transformer explains the 10X voltage.

And if you ask Bill or other Joule Thief builders for their optimized coil turns ratios in specific applications, you will find that some of them are also in high proportion, thus producing high voltage at the outputs. In fact, only the very most "basic" JTs will use a 1:1 turns ratio, like my testbed's baseline toroid with 13:13 turns.

Here's one of mine, from a magpwr/conradelectro circuit, with 5:80 ratio on a random "bead" toroid, lighting a LED with just over 250 mV input. It still works down below 150 mV but I didn't show that in this video. With the proper ferrite material as specified by magpwr and conrad, 4 FETs in parallel and the 4:100 ratio it should work down to 50 mV:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35IMWNp2akg

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on January 26, 2015, 03:37:40 PM

Quote from: TinselKoala on January 26, 2015, 03:32:14 PM
And if you ask Bill or other Joule Thief builders for their optimized coil turns ratios in specific applications, you will find that some of them are also in high proportion, thus producing high voltage at the outputs. In fact, only the very most "basic" JTs will use a 1:1 turns ratio, like my testbed's baseline toroid with 13:13 turns.

Here's one of mine, from a magpwr/conradelectro circuit, with 5:80 ratio on a random "bead" toroid, lighting a LED with just over 250 mV input. It still works down below 150 mV but I didn't show that in this video. With the proper ferrite material as specified by magpwr and conrad, 4 FETs in parallel and the 4:100 ratio it should work down to 50 mV:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35IMWNp2akg

The lowest voltage harvester that I have seen was a 25mV input from a thermopile disclosed in a thermostat patent years ago. That oscillator also used JFETs and a a pretty tall step-up ratio. IIRC it was about 200:1.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on January 26, 2015, 03:46:56 PM

Quote from: ramset on January 26, 2015, 09:17:34 AM
TinselKoala
here you have a few interesting Vids that show some interesting effects
as a builder yourself ,would you explain this acceleration in the second video
to some of our builders here working on acceleration effects and voltage increases

I know the second Vid [with the motor ] has other "snake oil" purposes ,but you also are showing acceleration under load,
it would be good to discuss this here,I know other builders respect your work.

Voltage https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLsOCYPCvGc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLsOCYPCvGc)

acceleration https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9x2YfA9LU5s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9x2YfA9LU5s)

When you have time and in the appropriate Thread ??

respectfully

Chet

The first linked video should be labelled "Current" rather than "voltage", since I am measuring the voltage drop across an inline current-viewing resistor to show the fact that the _current_ draw from the battery source is the same or slightly less with the 24 LED load _connected_ than it is with the load disconnected. This is a real effect and should be replicable by anyone with a similar JT. And, indeed, the video was done in response to some "oohing and ahhing" over the same "amazing" effect posted in another thread by a different poster using a different circuit (but the same operating principle). However, current is not power, power is not energy, and a real measured estimate of the input and output _power_ should be done by the usual, correct means, before any conclusions may be confidently drawn.

The second video's acceleration effect _may_ be an artifact caused by the inadequate "measurement" of the quantities concerned. All kinds of strange things can happen when you are in the near-field of a relatively powerful source of EM radiation (inside the black box), and improper measurements can lead one to make improper conclusions. As Richard Feynman may have said, "The easiest person to fool is yourself."

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on January 26, 2015, 03:47:13 PM

Hi,

Can anyone help me with a answer to this question?

Regards,
GL.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on January 26, 2015, 03:55:47 PM

Quote from: Groundloop on January 26, 2015, 03:47:13 PM
Hi,

Can anyone help me with a answer to this question?

Regards,
GL.

Your inductance meter measures the amount of voltage it takes at a test frequency to drive a reference current through the winding. The second winding has a high mutual inductance with the first winding as it is wrapped around the same toroid. But wrapped as it is around the second toroid, it has a lot of uncoupled inductance. So: Closing the switch makes the measured inductance go down, but not as much as if the second coil did not also wrap around the second toroid.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on January 26, 2015, 04:02:54 PM

Quote from: MarkE on January 26, 2015, 03:55:47 PM
Your inductance meter measures the amount of voltage it takes at a test frequency to drive a reference current through the winding. The second winding has a high mutual inductance with the first winding as it is wrapped around the same toroid. But wrapped as it is around the second toroid, it has a lot of uncoupled inductance. So: Closing the switch makes the measured inductance go down, but not as much as if the second coil did not also wrap around the second toroid.

MarkE,

Thanks, I have set up a test and the readout on the L meter did go down to almost half when the switch was closed.
This confirms that it is possible to use this method to tune a oscillator to two different frequencies just by open or
close a switch.

Thanks again.
GL.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on January 26, 2015, 04:18:52 PM

Quote from: Groundloop on January 26, 2015, 03:47:13 PM
Hi,

Can anyone help me with a answer to this question?

Regards,
GL.

I used the same numbers of turns as on your diagram:

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on January 26, 2015, 04:21:22 PM

Quote from: Groundloop on January 26, 2015, 04:02:54 PM
MarkE,

Thanks, I have set up a test and the readout on the L meter did go down to almost half when the switch was closed.
This confirms that it is possible to use this method to tune a oscillator to two different frequencies just by open or
close a switch.

Thanks again.
GL.

You can also do it with a single inductor, using your switch to short across turns, or by selecting multiple taps on the inductor.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Groundloop on January 26, 2015, 05:01:53 PM

Quote from: TinselKoala on January 26, 2015, 04:21:22 PM
You can also do it with a single inductor, using your switch to short across turns, or by selecting multiple taps on the inductor.

TK,

Thanks for the test. Yes, I have seen this coil switching in "old" HF power amplifiers. :-)

GL.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: synchro1 on January 26, 2015, 06:07:47 PM

Quote from: MarkE on January 26, 2015, 02:20:39 AM
It is a reasonable guess that the "high voltage" is something he measures when the LEDs are not connected. It is also a reasonable guess that it is less than 50V peak, which is certainly much greater than the three volts required to run a white LED.

@MarkE,

Quote from Pirate88179:

"I am even using some commercial bulbs in my lights, like the Lights of America 24 chip led bulbs and ...they are just fine with 400 volts at high freq. My bedside table uses 2 of those bulbs and...I have been using it every night for many years and...the bulbs still work. (still using the original D cell battery also)".

Pirate's running a 120 volt AC LED bulb at 400 volts.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on January 26, 2015, 07:27:31 PM

Quote from: synchro1 on January 26, 2015, 06:07:47 PM
@MarkE,

Quote from Pirate88179:

"I am even using some commercial bulbs in my lights, like the Lights of America 24 chip led bulbs and ...they are just fine with 400 volts at high freq. My bedside table uses 2 of those bulbs and...I have been using it every night for many years and...the bulbs still work. (still using the original D cell battery also)".

Pirate's running a 120 volt AC LED bulb at 400 volts.

That's not something that I would do. The electronics in a 120V LED won't be very happy seeing 400V. His 400V may be open circuit. Without seeing a sample of his measurements and how he performs them, I don't know what he's really doing.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 26, 2015, 07:49:16 PM

Quote from: synchro1 on January 26, 2015, 06:07:47 PM
@MarkE,

Quote from Pirate88179:

"I am even using some commercial bulbs in my lights, like the Lights of America 24 chip led bulbs and ...they are just fine with 400 volts at high freq. My bedside table uses 2 of those bulbs and...I have been using it every night for many years and...the bulbs still work. (still using the original D cell battery also)".

Pirate's running a 120 volt AC LED bulb at 400 volts.

That is correct. You can screw those bulbs into a light fixture and run them on 120, or place into my circuit and run them at around 400. The lights of America have no electronics inside, so no need to modify. Most of them are 27 chip leds and I have some that are 24. Now, when I use the Cree 40 watt equiv. bulbs in the same circuit, I have already removed all of the electronics and am just using the leds. I have hundreds and hundreds of hours on those LOA bulbs and all of them still work great. Much brighter than lighting a gutted cfl.

Even running 2 bulbs of the LOA style led bulbs with 27 chips each (Like the one next to my bed) I am only drawing 150 mA's.

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on January 26, 2015, 09:16:34 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 26, 2015, 07:49:16 PM
That is correct. You can screw those bulbs into a light fixture and run them on 120, or place into my circuit and run them at around 400. The lights of America have no electronics inside, so no need to modify. Most of them are 27 chip leds and I have some that are 24. Now, when I use the Cree 40 watt equiv. bulbs in the same circuit, I have already removed all of the electronics and am just using the leds. I have hundreds and hundreds of hours on those LOA bulbs and all of them still work great. Much brighter than lighting a gutted cfl.

Even running 2 bulbs of the LOA style led bulbs with 27 chips each (Like the one next to my bed) I am only drawing 150 mA's.

Bill

OK so you've got a series string of LEDs without any current limit resistors, or with one or more current limiting resistors? These are nominally 3V white LEDs? And the 150mA draw is from a single D cell? Do you have any oscilloscope captures of the LED drive waveform?

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 26, 2015, 10:04:50 PM

Quote from: MarkE on January 26, 2015, 09:16:34 PM
OK so you've got a series string of LEDs without any current limit resistors, or with one or more current limiting resistors? These are nominally 3V white LEDs? And the 150mA draw is from a single D cell? Do you have any oscilloscope captures of the LED drive waveform?

No resistors or anything else in these bulbs. The amp draw was tested from an AA battery, but I use a D cell in my reading light so it lasts longer. So far, I have not had to change it. I don't know how the chips in the LOA bulbs are wired...probably series but I can not confirm that. No scope shots of the circuit as I was told several years ago that the high voltage could damage my Tektronix 2213. I am not good with my scope so I played it safe.

TK has one of these circuits that I sent him, we could ask him if this can be safely scoped. All I know is that I bought about 8 of these lamps 4-5 years ago and all of them are still working great. I also made lights for my daughter, and some of my friends and all is still well with them too.

Bill

PS I see that this is an old photo I had on file. All of my bulbs have a standard Edison base, but this gives you an idea of what they look like.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 26, 2015, 10:09:01 PM

Mark:

Also, the driver is nothing more than a modified flash camera circuit. I bought about 90 of them surplus for like $.40 ea.

Bill

PS This photo matches most of my bulbs.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: synchro1 on January 26, 2015, 11:33:31 PM

@Pirate88179,

That's beautiful. I broke one of those bulbs and examined the circuit at the base. There're several standard componants, capaciitors inductors etc. I'm sure it rectifies to DC. My tests confirmed that additional bulbs generate light more efficiently. Adding two additional bulbs would probably deliver the same amount of light for 100 ma instead of 150 based on a savings factor of 17% per additional bulb.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on January 27, 2015, 12:43:31 AM

Quote from: synchro1 on January 26, 2015, 11:33:31 PM
@Pirate88179,

That's beautiful. I broke one of those bulbs and examined the circuit at the base. There're several standard componants, capaciitors inductors etc. I'm sure it rectifies to DC. My tests confirmed that additional bulbs generate light more efficiently. Adding two additional bulbs would probably deliver the same amount of light for 100 ma instead of 150 based on a savings factor of 17% per additional bulb.

It doesn't work that way. The I²R losses per bulb go down dramatically when adding bulbs, but then the number of bulbs wasting energy in their individual I²R goes up. Unless one starts at a point where they are kicking the snot out of LED to begin with, the efficiency gains had by paralleling more LEDs quickly hit diminishing returns.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MarkE on January 27, 2015, 12:44:17 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on January 26, 2015, 10:04:50 PM
No resistors or anything else in these bulbs. The amp draw was tested from an AA battery, but I use a D cell in my reading light so it lasts longer. So far, I have not had to change it. I don't know how the chips in the LOA bulbs are wired...probably series but I can not confirm that. No scope shots of the circuit as I was told several years ago that the high voltage could damage my Tektronix 2213. I am not good with my scope so I played it safe.

TK has one of these circuits that I sent him, we could ask him if this can be safely scoped. All I know is that I bought about 8 of these lamps 4-5 years ago and all of them are still working great. I also made lights for my daughter, and some of my friends and all is still well with them too.

Bill

PS I see that this is an old photo I had on file. All of my bulbs have a standard Edison base, but this gives you an idea of what they look like.

TK has a 100X probe. He can safely look at this circuit.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on January 27, 2015, 04:19:07 AM

Is it the modified flash camera circuit? Yes, I installed that one in a jar with a gutted CFL tube, it works quite well with that. I call it the "Pirate Light". I'll dig it out and scope it, probably have to wait till tomorrow though. I'm bushed from working on something else. Unfortunately I don't have an equivalent LED bulb to try it on.

I have a failed Cree LED bulb that I haven't taken apart yet to see why it failed. Only got 30 or so hours out of that one, a 18 Watt 1600 Lumens unit that I was running in the overhead fixture on the normal mains supply. I liked the bright light from it, but it sure didn't last very long. I actually don't know how to take it apart without messing it up, anyone have any ideas?

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: synchro1 on January 27, 2015, 04:57:02 PM

Quote from: MarkE on January 27, 2015, 12:43:31 AM
It doesn't work that way. The I²R losses per bulb go down dramatically when adding bulbs, but then the number of bulbs wasting energy in their individual I²R goes up. Unless one starts at a point where they are kicking the snot out of LED to begin with, the efficiency gains had by paralleling more LEDs quickly hit diminishing returns.

@MarkE,

Yor're just shooting it out your ass. A few comments back you were confused into imagining we were taking about 3V LEDS; Now you pretend you know more then me after months of testing and half a dozen videos. You grow despised as an ignorant "Know it All". Wise up to yourself Bub!

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 27, 2015, 07:38:42 PM

Quote from: synchro1 on January 26, 2015, 11:33:31 PM
@Pirate88179,

That's beautiful. I broke one of those bulbs and examined the circuit at the base. There're several standard componants, capaciitors inductors etc. I'm sure it rectifies to DC. My tests confirmed that additional bulbs generate light more efficiently. Adding two additional bulbs would probably deliver the same amount of light for 100 ma instead of 150 based on a savings factor of 17% per additional bulb.

We must be talking about different bulbs. I have not purchased any of them in a few years, so maybe they have changed but, I completely took apart my first one as I assumed there was some circuitry in there...nope. Just two wires connecting the leds to the Edison base. No resistor, nothing. That is why I was suggesting folks to use them back then as no mods were needed.

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 27, 2015, 07:46:12 PM

Quote from: TinselKoala on January 27, 2015, 04:19:07 AM
Is it the modified flash camera circuit? Yes, I installed that one in a jar with a gutted CFL tube, it works quite well with that. I call it the "Pirate Light". I'll dig it out and scope it, probably have to wait till tomorrow though. I'm bushed from working on something else. Unfortunately I don't have an equivalent LED bulb to try it on.

I have a failed Cree LED bulb that I haven't taken apart yet to see why it failed. Only got 30 or so hours out of that one, a 18 Watt 1600 Lumens unit that I was running in the overhead fixture on the normal mains supply. I liked the bright light from it, but it sure didn't last very long. I actually don't know how to take it apart without messing it up, anyone have any ideas?

Yes, the flash camera circuit...scoping that would be great. (Try not to get zapped again, ha ha.)

Is your cree anything like the 800 lumen 60 watt equiv. that you have seen me use in some videos? Glass globe, heat sink ring and plastic base going down to the base?

If it is, I can tell you how to do this easily. (Well, it was easy for me after I broke the plastic and saw what was inside)

Here are some photos to see if they are made similar.

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: TinselKoala on January 27, 2015, 08:21:24 PM

Yes, it's similar, and I already took it apart... by breaking the glass accidentally! Once I did that the rest was easy, some snaps and pressfit stuff. I can't get any of the LEDs to light up by any means, I even melted one off the heatsink mount and tried just the bare LED. I can't imagine that all 20 of the the LEDs are blown somehow but that is how it is acting, so I've just tossed it into the junkbox

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 27, 2015, 08:35:45 PM

Quote from: TinselKoala on January 27, 2015, 08:21:24 PM
Yes, it's similar, and I already took it apart... by breaking the glass accidentally! Once I did that the rest was easy, some snaps and pressfit stuff. I can't get any of the LEDs to light up by any means, I even melted one off the heatsink mount and tried just the bare LED. I can't imagine that all 20 of the the LEDs are blown somehow but that is how it is acting, so I've just tossed it into the junkbox

Mine have three snap clips that you can't see but, you can feel them with a jewelers screwdriver. You just pop around under the heat sink until you release all three. Then you can snap it back together.

Did yours have a complicated driver board like this inside? Maybe something on the board is fried? Oh, I see you said you tried lighting the leds directly...never mind. When I run my bulbs on the mains, they get pretty hot, which is why I added a much larger heat sink. All of my bulbs still work. I gutted three of them for my lighting projects but use the others on the mains. I also peel that diffusion goop off of the bulbs on all of them. The bulbs are not clear and still diffuse and I figure more light can get out that way.

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 28, 2015, 09:35:33 PM

I just wanted to add that the circuit I sent TK was a Kodak style circuit modification and the ones we were making here way back when were based on the AA Fuji design. Someone tested the modified Fuji a while back and said it was about 400 volts. The Kodak based circuit may have less output as my lights are not as bright as the ones I still have running the Fuji.

If I had to make a guess, I would say the new style Kodak based circuits are probably about 300-325? Just a guess.

Now, the Jeanna circuit using the large toroid (3 3/8" dia.) were measured (not by me) to be over 800 volts on a single, "dead" AA battery. The zaps I have received from that circuit hurt much more than any of the camera circuits that have bitten me.

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: PhiChaser on January 28, 2015, 10:11:57 PM

Hell of a 'light bulb'...
And this is 'going green'...
Goddam scary if you ask me.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: sm0ky2 on March 05, 2015, 07:41:07 PM

@PhiChaser

you forgot to label the built-in self-destruct mechanism, that keeps us buying more of these things!!

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 17, 2016, 11:01:03 PM

Quote from: sm0ky2 on March 05, 2015, 07:41:07 PM
@PhiChaser

you forgot to label the built-in self-destruct mechanism, that keeps us buying more of these things!!

I actually have one of my Cree bulbs (unmodded and running off mains) beginning to flash a bit. I suppose this means that the driver board is on the way out. If it gets too annoying or burns out totally, I guess I will just run it off a flash circuit like I do the others.

The weird thing is that this bulb has been run with my added heat sink since almost day one. I suppose that driver board was not meant to last forever.
Still, this was way longer than any cfl I ever had. Also, none of the Cree bulbs have burst into flames (yet anyway) like several of my cfl's did back a few years ago.

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MileHigh on February 17, 2016, 11:48:48 PM

So many devices run off of low-voltage DC these days that all of these wall-warts become a pain. They are shoving a form of wall-wart into an LED light bulb so it works in a standard socket.

Then you have homes with solar panels and battery banks that work off off DC, so this whole DC to AC back to DC is a pain in the butt and more expensive and less reliable.

I hope the consumer electronics industry and the housing industry is working in the background to solve this problem. They need to launch some kind of universal home "smart DC power distribution bus" with new wall sockets and plugs just for DC power. You need "smart DC power plugs" for electronics and "smart DC power wall sockets" in houses. Sort of like a USB 3.1 for DC power where when you plug your DC device into the DC wall socket, there is a negotiation phase that takes place so it is transparent if the device requires 5 volts or 12 volts, etc.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 17, 2016, 11:59:10 PM

Quote from: MileHigh on February 17, 2016, 11:48:48 PM
So many devices run off of low-voltage DC these days that all of these wall-warts become a pain. They are shoving a form of wall-wart into an LED light bulb so it works in a standard socket.

Then you have homes with solar panels and battery banks that work off off DC, so this whole DC to AC back to DC is a pain in the butt and more expensive and less reliable.

I hope the consumer electronics industry and the housing industry is working in the background to solve this problem. They need to launch some kind of universal home "smart DC power distribution bus" with new wall sockets and plugs just for DC power. You need "smart DC power plugs" for electronics and "smart DC power wall sockets" in houses. Sort of like a USB 3.1 for DC power where when you plug your DC device into the DC wall socket, there is a negotiation phase that takes place so it is transparent if the device requires 5 volts or 12 volts, etc.

That's a great idea. The power company can just split off a dc (hopefully clean) bus that can run all of this dc stuff we now use. Or, we can just find an efficient way to make our own dc at our homes...not to run our homes, but just to run all of our dc devices.

Hey, I ran across this old video from Lidmotor from a few years back about his resonant JT circuit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=850LpSRkL-A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=850LpSRkL-A)

Have you seen that one? It makes for a very efficient JT it seems, unless something else is going on with his circuit design. Obviously this is far different from what we would call a "standard" JT circuit but after reading some of the discussions on the other topic, I thought it was interesting.

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on February 18, 2016, 03:25:58 AM

We are seeing more AC power point mains outlets available with single or twin USB sockets incorporated...good idea. No doubt you guys over the pond have them also?

By the way how are you Bill haven't looked in for a while.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MileHigh on February 18, 2016, 06:39:43 AM

Here is a Joule Thief issue that has been in the back of my mind for a long time. See the attached portion of a Magluvin scope capture of his Joule Thief collector-emitter voltage. Of course the collector-emitter voltage is the voltage across the LED. Naturally there is an unknown current waveform associated with the voltage waveform that will have a similar decaying waveform shape.

So the issue is this: You can clearly see the declining voltage across the LED. So how bright is the LED as a function of the voltage? What if the LED is bright for the upper half and very dim for the lower half? I don't know if this is true but it merits an investigation.

If if the lower half light output from the LED is very dim then presumably it does not contribute to the visible light output of the LED to the naked eye and there is a lot of "wasted energy" in the inductor discharge. If that's true it is arguably an "issue" and it suggests you can build a better mousetrap Joule Thief.

So, what if, for the sake of argument, that half of the energy in the coil discharge is essentially wasted because it barely lights the LED?

MileHigh

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 18, 2016, 02:25:20 PM

Quote from: crowclaw on February 18, 2016, 03:25:58 AM
We are seeing more AC power point mains outlets available with single or twin USB sockets incorporated...good idea. No doubt you guys over the pond have them also?

By the way how are you Bill haven't looked in for a while.

I am fine, how are you doing? It has been a while. It seems the days are flying by much faster now...ha ha.

I have not seen what you have described with those outlets around here but, that does not mean anything. It could be they are incorporated into new construction, of which I have not had any reason to see. I will look around to see if they are available at the home supply stores next time I go. It would be a good idea if they did have them. I wonder how much noise they have in them from the transformation of the AC and also, being surrounded by the ac?

Take care,

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 18, 2016, 02:31:27 PM

Quote from: MileHigh on February 18, 2016, 06:39:43 AM
Here is a Joule Thief issue that has been in the back of my mind for a long time. See the attached portion of a Magluvin scope capture of his Joule Thief collector-emitter voltage. Of course the collector-emitter voltage is the voltage across the LED. Naturally there is an unknown current waveform associated with the voltage waveform that will have a similar decaying waveform shape.

So the issue is this: You can clearly see the declining voltage across the LED. So how bright is the LED as a function of the voltage? What if the LED is bright for the upper half and very dim for the lower half? I don't know if this is true but it merits an investigation.

If if the lower half light output from the LED is very dim then presumably it does not contribute to the visible light output of the LED to the naked eye and there is a lot of "wasted energy" in the inductor discharge. If that's true it is arguably an "issue" and it suggests you can build a better mousetrap Joule Thief.

So, what if, for the sake of argument, that half of the energy in the coil discharge is essentially wasted because it barely lights the LED?

MileHigh

MH:

I would think that it would depend upon the values associated with those points. In other words, and I just read this around here somewhere in the past few days, the basic JT can put out 40 volts but it does not fry the led because it can handle the high freq. HV pulse and responds by lighting brightly. So, if the lower point you indicate has the voltage dropping to 4 volts, 1/10 of the original value, that led will still burn brightly no?

I will try to find where I read this as it confirmed what I had been saying about the HV high freq JT's and leds for many years now. It is something we found out during our experiments and playing here on this topic.

Maybe I did not understand what you were meaning and went off in another direction...if so, I am sorry and will look at this again once I get home.

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MileHigh on February 18, 2016, 03:01:58 PM

Bill:

I think you read about the "40 volts" in one of my copy-pasted descriptions of how a Joule Thief works. That is somewhat of a misnomer because the coil never outputs 40 volts when the LED load is connected. It's the same old issue - the discharging coil is a current source and not a voltage source but mentioning that in any kind of magazine or online article, apparently even an article written for "hobbyist keeners" would throw too many people off and cause more confused people than enlightened people.

The real test to check how the LED responds to different voltages would actually be to slowly change the current through the LED and then measure the resulting voltage across the LED and compare that to the voltages you see in the scope shot. It might be quite a surprise if the lower half of the voltage curve was barely lighting the LED. My gut feel is telling me that "barely lighting" is an exaggeration but the proof is in the testing pudding.

I am willing to bet you that this investigation was never done in all 1126 pages and six year's worth of this thread. Not bad for a guy leaning back in his Laz-Z-Boy eh?

MileHigh

P.S.: And the follow-up to that is if it truly is a problem, what can be done to alleviate it?

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 18, 2016, 07:57:09 PM

Quote from: MileHigh on February 18, 2016, 03:01:58 PM
Bill:

I think you read about the "40 volts" in one of my copy-pasted descriptions of how a Joule Thief works. That is somewhat of a misnomer because the coil never outputs 40 volts when the LED load is connected. It's the same old issue - the discharging coil is a current source and not a voltage source but mentioning that in any kind of magazine or online article, apparently even an article written for "hobbyist keeners" would throw too many people off and cause more confused people than enlightened people.

The real test to check how the LED responds to different voltages would actually be to slowly change the current through the LED and then measure the resulting voltage across the LED and compare that to the voltages you see in the scope shot. It might be quite a surprise if the lower half of the voltage curve was barely lighting the LED. My gut feel is telling me that "barely lighting" is an exaggeration but the proof is in the testing pudding.

I am willing to bet you that this investigation was never done in all 1126 pages and six year's worth of this thread. Not bad for a guy leaning back in his Laz-Z-Boy eh?

MileHigh

P.S.: And the follow-up to that is if it truly is a problem, what can be done to alleviate it?

I think you are correct about where I had read that.

Waay back Gadgetmall was using a ceramic cap on the base of his transistor. My thoughts are, that if indeed it is wasting energy by having a moment of low voltage to the led then what about using a decent sized supercap, say 1 F, in series with the led? This way, the voltage would never drop as the cap would absorb all of the pulses, both high and low. Sort of a smoothing operation but not exactly the same.

Does this make any sense?

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MileHigh on February 18, 2016, 10:26:13 PM

Putting a cap in series with the LED doesn't make any sense. But we all know that putting a cap in parallel with a weak battery as an example can keep the voltage steady when the load momentarily increases as compared to the weak battery alone which would crap out. So you are in the ballpark in the sense that somehow a smoothing cap could be part of the solution.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 18, 2016, 11:04:23 PM

Well, I gave this some thought. If you put the supercap in parallel with the led then you run the risk of over charging the cap if the energy flows into the cap faster then it is being drained by the led. This is why I used series so the pulses get absorbed and leveled out on the way to the led and since the led is a diode we do not have to worry about any energy returning back into the cap.

I believe I did this very thing a while back and I will see if I made a video of it...if not, I will make another circuit to attempt to demonstrate what I am saying...or trying to say.

Bill

PS This has to do with something I found out about supercaps (or possibly any caps?) in that when you hit them with spikes or pulses, they do a much better job of retaining that energy than a battery which makes them very good to use with catching spikes from a JT circuit or the pulses from my earth battery.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 18, 2016, 11:40:47 PM

This guy made a JT using some SMT inductors: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2jMrNFV4nQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2jMrNFV4nQ)

I have seen some like this but they are so small I can barely see them. Now, if he used an SMT transistor and mini led it could be even smaller.

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Nink on February 18, 2016, 11:57:04 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 18, 2016, 11:40:47 PM
This guy made a JT using some SMT inductors: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2jMrNFV4nQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2jMrNFV4nQ)

I have seen some like this but they are so small I can barely see them. Now, if he used an SMT transistor and mini led it could be even smaller.

Bill

Nice 2 * Ferrite Bead SMT Inductors back to back with and an NPN transistor. Clever. Wouldn't mind seeing a comparison.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: AlienGrey on February 19, 2016, 10:59:02 AM

Have a look at this Joule thief the current draw is 50 ma at 2 volt in this case
Have a look at this device it can be tuned for optimal brightness in this case the voltage is 2v at 45 ma in this case.

Re scop shot freq 95 khz, width +10.25, with - 240, period 10.6 us, 20v cm x10 probe

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 19, 2016, 07:49:44 PM

That looks like a straw hat led...I have some of those and they are very bright for their size.

Well done. Will that run on 1.5 volts or lower?

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 20, 2016, 10:30:57 AM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 18, 2016, 11:04:23 PM
Well, I gave this some thought. If you put the supercap in parallel with the led then you run the risk of over charging the cap if the energy flows into the cap faster then it is being drained by the led. This is why I used series so the pulses get absorbed and leveled out on the way to the led and since the led is a diode we do not have to worry about any energy returning back into the cap.

I believe I did this very thing a while back and I will see if I made a video of it...if not, I will make another circuit to attempt to demonstrate what I am saying...or trying to say.

Bill

PS This has to do with something I found out about supercaps (or possibly any caps?) in that when you hit them with spikes or pulses, they do a much better job of retaining that energy than a battery which makes them very good to use with catching spikes from a JT circuit or the pulses from my earth battery.

I made some that charged caps using a 1/2 wave rectifier off a secondary coil. Just be sure to drain the cap with some kind of load, or it could blow up!

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: AlienGrey on February 20, 2016, 12:45:41 PM

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 19, 2016, 07:49:44 PM
That looks like a straw hat led...I have some of those and they are very bright for their size.

Well done. Will that run on 1.5 volts or lower?

Bill

Yes it will, i just tried it with an old AA duracell ! and it's about as bright too.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 21, 2016, 11:16:57 AM

MH:

Here is one of my first earth battery videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mq9ZKDKDclY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mq9ZKDKDclY)
(This was before Pirate Labs)

I didn't know it at the time but I was using a .5 farad 5.5 volt supercap in series with the led. The led would
not light without it in the circuit. This is where I first learned how the caps can gather up the spikes and allow them to be used. This is where I got the idea to use them later on the JT circuit. The cap is charged by the spikes from the earth battery and later, the cap is charged by the JT spikes.

Does this make any sense now? I knew next to nothing about electronics when I did this 9 years ago (not that I am an expert now, ha ha) but I stumbled on to something that has been helpful ever since.

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MileHigh on February 21, 2016, 11:51:50 AM

Bill:

It's the corroding magnesium rod that generates the voltage and associated current. The current is quite low and that translates into saying that as a voltage source, the corroding magnesium has a very high output impedance, too high to drive the LED reliably. There are no spikes produced by the magnesium. But it is reasonable to assume that the current produced by corroding magnesium is variable. It depends on what is happening at the boundary layer between the magnesium and the soil and how much moisture and salinity there is at every point of contact, etc. That is presumably quite variable and therefore the output impedance is also variable.

So the capacitor just absorbs the variable current and smooths it out to drive the LED. It effectively converts the variable output impedance from the corroding magnesium rod into a more constant impedance such that the LED is driven with a more constant current.

MileHigh

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 21, 2016, 12:43:59 PM

Quote from: MileHigh on February 21, 2016, 11:51:50 AM
Bill:

It's the corroding magnesium rod that generates the voltage and associated current. The current is quite low and that translates into saying that as a voltage source, the corroding magnesium has a very high output impedance, too high to drive the LED reliably. There are no spikes produced by the magnesium. But it is reasonable to assume that the current produced by corroding magnesium is variable. It depends on what is happening at the boundary layer between the magnesium and the soil and how much moisture and salinity there is at every point of contact, etc. That is presumably quite variable and therefore the output impedance is also variable.

So the capacitor just absorbs the variable current and smooths it out to drive the LED. It effectively converts the variable output impedance from the corroding magnesium rod into a more constant impedance such that the LED is driven with a more constant current.

MileHigh

Well, we later learned some other things about this type of set-up. For example, I hooked up my scope to the E.B. and you could see all of these high voltage spikes jumping all over the place. They could have be coming from anywhere...leaking ac line, radio waves in the ground (noise) or possibly lightning strikes from distant storms? Who knows...but...those spikes were there and that is why I could charge up my large cap (650 F) to 2.7 volts when I was only measuring around 1.9 volts using several different meters. (Analog and digital)

This is about the time I began calling this arrangement an earth energy receiver rather than an earth battery. Maybe the energy was man-made...who knows? I just know it was there otherwise, I could never have made enough power to run my Bedini motor or those Fuji circuits.

I will look for some photos of the spikes if I can find some and will edit this post later.

Here is the video showing the spikes jumping all over the screen...they are hard to see but they are all over the place.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjBAU4HAMfs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjBAU4HAMfs)

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MileHigh on February 21, 2016, 01:23:38 PM

Yes I saw the spikes and it's highly likely that they are coming from all sorts of possible external sources, and not the corroding magnesium.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 21, 2016, 02:09:44 PM

Quote from: MileHigh on February 21, 2016, 01:23:38 PM
Yes I saw the spikes and it's highly likely that they are coming from all sorts of possible external sources, and not the corroding magnesium.

Well, I still like that I can light up all that I have been able to light up for free. There was no 60 Hz component that I could detect but, I guess it does not really matter where the energy is coming from as long as it is usable right?

Also, my magnesium block still appears to be alive and well after about 5 years...although, to be fair, I have not run lights all the time from it...usually just around Christmas and special occasions. I am sure that it will give out one day. The carbon rods are just fine, as would be expected.

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: MileHigh on February 21, 2016, 02:27:48 PM

If you read Revolution Green a company has what resembles an LED-based camping-style lantern that uses a magnesium cylinder and salt water to power the LEDs. You get something like 150 hours (if I remember) from the cylinder.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 21, 2016, 02:43:55 PM

Yes, I remember reading about that. I believe Mark D. also posted a link to that story over here somewhere.

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 01, 2016, 02:40:02 PM

I still want to know why, when I "tuned" my simple JT circuits using a vr on the base that I could go past the sweet spot and would have to back up?

In other words, if I were just lowering the resistance, then the led would get brighter the lower I went...right? So, why would the led get brighter and brighter and then start to get dimmer and dimmer and you had to tune back to hit the sweet spot?

This is going back about 8 years but I believe I replaced the 1k base resistor with a 5k vr. You could tune it to get the best lighting and then, measure the vr and replace with that value resistor which is what I used to do. But then, as has been discussed, the circuit would drift out of tune as the battery voltage lowered so I ended up just leaving the vrs in place most of the time.

Bill

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: SeaMonkey on March 01, 2016, 03:53:56 PM

Excellent question Pirate. It all has to do with the Current Gain
of the transistor and the region of saturation.

As base drive current is increased by decreasing the resistance
of the base feed resistor the transistor becomes more efficient
as a switching device as it approaches saturation.

Continuing to decrease the resistance will reach a point where
the base drive pulse amplitude is sufficient to drive the transistor
into saturation efficiently without excessive losses.

Reducing the resistance even further beyond that point will cause
the base drive pulse amplitude to increase base current even more
but with excessive losses. The increased base drive is counter
productive as it is more than is needed to achieve saturation and
represents wasted power. As a consequence the output of the
circuit (LED brilliance) will decrease indicating excessive power loss
and reduced efficiency.

The "sweet spot" is where the base drive amplitude is just sufficient
to put the transistor into saturation for minimum losses.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 01, 2016, 07:28:56 PM

Quote from: SeaMonkey on March 01, 2016, 03:53:56 PM
Excellent question Pirate. It all has to do with the Current Gain
of the transistor and the region of saturation.

As base drive current is increased by decreasing the resistance
of the base feed resistor the transistor becomes more efficient
as a switching device as it approaches saturation.

Continuing to decrease the resistance will reach a point where
the base drive pulse amplitude is sufficient to drive the transistor
into saturation efficiently without excessive losses.

Reducing the resistance even further beyond that point will cause
the base drive pulse amplitude to increase base current even more
but with excessive losses. The increased base drive is counter
productive as it is more than is needed to achieve saturation and
represents wasted power. As a consequence the output of the
circuit (LED brilliance) will decrease indicating excessive power loss
and reduced efficiency.

The "sweet spot" is where the base drive amplitude is just sufficient
to put the transistor into saturation for minimum losses.

SeaMonkey:

Thank you very much for your detailed answer. That makes a lot of sense to me.

Bill

Title: Re: Jule Thief
Post by: geovat on October 27, 2020, 12:01:36 AM

Quote from: Groundloop on January 02, 2013, 06:44:47 AM
I have my universal printed circuit board for the AMP-2 soldered now.
Next step will be connecting a antenna and ground and
start measuring the output.

GL.

What about this? ;)
https://earthenergy6.webnode.ro/_files/200000030-3b4de3b4e1/FREE-ENERGY-SCHEMATICS-3.PNG
-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGvKjxS5RRw

More infos:
https://earthenergy6.webnode.ro/low-currents-generator/

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: erfandl on July 03, 2021, 02:11:25 PM

LS gadget mod self charge finally replicated and I'm happy :)

Start voltage: 2.613, After a week it is still at 2.613 volts.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on July 03, 2021, 03:46:00 PM

Hi Erfandl, this thread was started many years ago and it's been years since I last posted here. As a point of interest, the schematic (post 16897) has an error relating to the output polarity markings for anybody replicating it.
It will be interesting to see how long your circuit will continue to uphold the charge, keep posting your progress and results. Regards Crowclaw

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: electricme on July 03, 2021, 05:33:48 PM

Hi Erfandl
Great looking JT, well done, try and let it keep going until the battery gives out which should be a long long time if they are fully charged.
One day I will get back into this thread again.

Keep up the good work.

Regards to all the old JT mates from a decade ago. electricme

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on July 04, 2021, 09:41:25 AM

Hi, same here, I'm still around :)

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: erfandl on August 05, 2021, 05:54:35 AM

Quote from: electricme on July 03, 2021, 05:33:48 PM
Hi Erfandl
Great looking JT, well done, try and let it keep going until the battery gives out which should be a long long time if they are fully charged.
One day I will get back into this thread again.

Keep up the good work.

Regards to all the old JT mates from a decade ago. electricme

Hi electricme, crowclaw .sorry for late.
I removed the LED from the circuit and the results were slightly different:
I connected to the circuit a battery that had rested for 10 days and its voltage was 1.452. After 5 hours, the battery voltage increased to 1.458. But the voltage did not exceed 1.458 even after 1 day and was fixed at the same voltage. the coil still ringing :)

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: crowclaw on August 05, 2021, 07:45:32 AM

Thanks for keeping us posted, good work. Crow Claw

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: norman6538 on August 05, 2021, 09:56:07 AM

So does this mean the LED has been lit for a week and the Batt V has not gone down?
If so quite impressive.

How many free watts would that be?
I'm wondering what the antenna does in this circuit. I think that is new from my memory.
With the antenna this circuit is looking more like the Morray/Bruce Perreault work.

Which diode is the LED?

Thanks

Norman

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: erfandl on August 05, 2021, 10:26:44 AM

Quote from: norman6538 on August 05, 2021, 09:56:07 AM
So does this mean the LED has been lit for a week and the Batt V has not gone down?
If so quite impressive.

How many free watts would that be?
I'm wondering what the antenna does in this circuit. I think that is new from my memory.
With the antenna this circuit is looking more like the Morray/Bruce Perreault work.

Which diode is the LED?

Thanks

Norman

Yes that's right battery voltage did not decrease in a week.
Which antenna? There is no antenna in the circuit!. If you mean red wire, this wire is only for connecting the transistor collector to the circuit.

what you mean about "Which diode is the LED?"

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: norman6538 on August 05, 2021, 12:39:29 PM

Thanks Erfandl
the drawing here shows the circuit I refered to.
https://overunity.com/6123/joule-thief/msg552564/#msg552564

and I thought all Joule Thief's had an led... and the photo shows that too.
Did I get something twised up?

Norman

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: erfandl on August 06, 2021, 04:24:15 AM

Quote from: norman6538 on August 05, 2021, 12:39:29 PM
Thanks Erfandl
the drawing here shows the circuit I refered to.
https://overunity.com/6123/joule-thief/msg552564/#msg552564

and I thought all Joule Thief's had an led... and the photo shows that too.
Did I get something twised up?

Norman

Please look carefully. This post was not sent by me

this is my circuit:

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: norman6538 on August 06, 2021, 06:25:40 AM

Thanks erfandl for clearing that up.
Norman

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: seychelles on August 07, 2021, 08:24:41 AM

JUST HELPING OUT.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: synchro1 on August 07, 2021, 09:10:31 AM

This photovoltaic cell 1000 times as efficient could couple as a Photonic reactor to the light mod circuit.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: synchro1 on August 07, 2021, 11:12:41 AM

A nested tetrahedron of photo cells and LEDS facing in on each other recycling power would deliver more output per mass and volume then a fusion reactor.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: synchro1 on August 08, 2021, 02:56:17 PM

The deodechedron consists of individual Tetrahedrons. The flat surface is superior to a spherical one. Nice shape for a "Photonic Reactor".

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: lancaIV on August 08, 2021, 04:26:36 PM

Quote from: synchro1 on August 07, 2021, 11:12:41 AM
A nested tetrahedron of photo cells and LEDS facing in on each other recycling power would deliver more output per mass and volume then a fusion reactor.

A little overestimated ! The "1000 times" more are from 0,0...% basic conversion efficiency from ferroelectric material !

The MLU research findings I see in correlation with Prof. Naoshi Ikeda et al. https://www.greenoptimistic.com/green-ferrite-solar-cell-japan-20110920/ (https://www.greenoptimistic.com/green-ferrite-solar-cell-japan-20110920/) findings !

crystal of RFe2O4

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=US&NR=2011168967A1&KC=A1&FT=D&ND=3&date=20110714&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=US&NR=2011168967A1&KC=A1&FT=D&ND=3&date=20110714&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP)

[0117] Considering the voltage value of 20V/cm described above, for example, when the thickness of the crystal of RFe2O4 in the electronic device is 1 μm, the phenomenon of a change in state of electrons as described above is caused to appear by applying a voltage of approximately 2 mV to the crystal of RFe2O4.

Further, considering the manufacture of an integrated circuit by use of a device having such a property, it is possible to configure an electronic circuit which can be driven by several mV.

If a circuit can be operated at approximately 1/1000 of the voltage for a conventional transistor integrated circuit, to simply calculate, it can be expected that its power consumption is ( 1/1000)<2>, that is approximately parts per million in a circuit composed by use of the above-described electronic device, and the performance that its operation speed is thousandfold is obtained.

Sincerely

OCWL

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: synchro1 on August 15, 2021, 06:24:16 PM

How much power would a 12 sided dodecahedron collector box of high performance photovoltaic cells generate over an extended run time with the 220 volt LED bulb fully illuminated inside?

A measurement of intensity in Lumans would permit the summation of theoretical power consumption. The comparison would deliver the actual overunity COP.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: lancaIV on August 15, 2021, 08:33:46 PM

Quote from: synchro1 on August 15, 2021, 06:24:16 PM
How much power would a 12 sided dodecahedron collector box of high performance photovoltaic cells generate over an extended run time with the 220 volt LED bulb fully illuminated inside?

A measurement of intensity in Lumans would permit the summation of theoretical power consumption. The comparison would deliver the actual overunity COP.

12 sided dodecahedron collector box : size ? solar cell/modul/panel

high performance photovoltaic cells : % efficiency related radiation nm wavelength

220 volt LED bulb : red,blue,white,green ?

Jerry Vollands 5x are similar the spanish inventor Baquero Menendez his PV light chamber with 8x 1,8mtr. 240 W panels and 500 sodium lamp as light source

lumen/Watt difference between CFL and LEDs are in the CFL 1 /LED 2 range ,the CFL consume can be reduced with controler :

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=US&NR=5130608A&KC=A&FT=D&ND=3&date=19920714&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=US&NR=5130608A&KC=A&FT=D&ND=3&date=19920714&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP)

The module can be understood to be similarly used in combination with a plurality of parallel incandescent lamps or luminaires. Furthermore, the present invention is suitable for use in a lighting system combined either with a filamentous (e.g. tungsten or tungsten-halogen) lamp or a nonfilamentous lamp such as a pressurized gas lamp as used in street lighting systems.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: senna2 on January 31, 2022, 11:19:43 PM

Quote from: erfandl on July 03, 2021, 02:11:25 PM
LS gadget mod self charge finally replicated and I'm happy :)

Start voltage: 2.613, After a week it is still at 2.613 volts.

Hi erfandl,

May I ask;
1. what is the voltage value of the electrolytic cap (10,000uF)?
2. Also there are two ceramic nonpolar caps valued with .0001uF and 220pF in the schematics. Where would 220pF cap go? What are the voltages of these caps in your circuit?
3. I see a variable resistor right next to the LED. What is the ohm value of it?

Trying to replicate your circuit. Thanks to you! :)

Pablo P

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: erfandl on February 14, 2022, 08:08:55 AM

Quote from: senna2 on January 31, 2022, 11:19:43 PM
Hi erfandl,

May I ask;
1. what is the voltage value of the electrolytic cap (10,000uF)?
2. Also there are two ceramic nonpolar caps valued with .0001uF and 220pF in the schematics. Where would 220pF cap go? What are the voltages of these caps in your circuit?
3. I see a variable resistor right next to the LED. What is the ohm value of it?

Trying to replicate your circuit. Thanks to you! :)

Pablo P

Hi.
1- it's 35V 10000uF
2- two 100v .0001uF capacitor in parallel
3- 100k variable resistor

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: forest on February 14, 2022, 11:13:46 AM

erfandl

I wonder if efect would be still there if replace germanium diodes with Schottky ?

Can you give more details , explain how you wound transformer ?

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: forest on February 14, 2022, 11:26:37 AM

Can you mark on schematic direction of winding coils ? I see there is no 100k resistor on schematic, can you post correct schematic ?

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: erfandl on February 14, 2022, 11:45:26 AM

Quote from: forest on February 14, 2022, 11:26:37 AM
Can you mark on schematic direction of winding coils ? I see there is no 100k resistor on schematic, can you post correct schematic ?

Hi. the coil directions is clockwise. This circuit works well when you only use germanium diodes
the 100K variable resistor is only for tunning the light output/power usage

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: forest on February 15, 2022, 02:44:45 PM

erfandl

Thank You for information. About secondary 400 turns : did you isolate each layer ?
did the circuit worked good at once or it needed adjustment and what kind of ?
What kind of battery you use ?

Please give us as much information as possible to replicate this circuit.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: senna2 on February 16, 2022, 02:25:10 AM

Quote from: erfandl on February 14, 2022, 08:08:55 AM
Hi.
1- it's 35V 10000uF
2- two 100v .0001uF capacitor in parallel
3- 100k variable resistor

Erfandl,

Much appreciated! Thank you for the kind explanation!
in #2, the schematic drawing only shows one .0001uF cap. If another identical cap is connected parallel to the first one, the capacitance value would be .00005uF at 100V.
Correct? Thanks again for your assistance :)

Pablo

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: Tarsier_79 on February 16, 2022, 05:28:13 AM

No, If they are in series they divide capacitance, but multiply the voltage rating, parallel they add capacitance.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: erfandl on February 16, 2022, 05:48:07 AM

Quote from: forest on February 15, 2022, 02:44:45 PM
erfandl

Thank You for information. About secondary 400 turns : did you isolate each layer ?
did the circuit worked good at once or it needed adjustment and what kind of ?
What kind of battery you use ?

Please give us as much information as possible to replicate this circuit.

your welcome. yes the layers is isolated by the paper paste.
To get best result, you have to play with the secondary coil turns ( I got good result with 20 turns ).
The batteries are NI-MH.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: forest on February 16, 2022, 03:01:17 PM

Each layer isolated by paper paste ?

Do you have more pictures of actual device?

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: senna2 on February 16, 2022, 06:39:45 PM

Quote from: Tarsier_79 on February 16, 2022, 05:28:13 AM
No, If they are in series they divide capacitance, but multiply the voltage rating, parallel they add capacitance.

Thank you for the correction. I realized that I momentarilly got confused about capacitance between serial and parallel. Logged in to fix the question, but you already reponded 👍🏼🙏🏼

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: erfandl on February 17, 2022, 04:18:40 AM

Quote from: forest on February 16, 2022, 03:01:17 PM
Each layer isolated by paper paste ?

Do you have more pictures of actual device?

sorry I mean paper tape like this:

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: senna2 on February 17, 2022, 08:27:07 PM

Quote from: erfandl on February 16, 2022, 05:48:07 AM
your welcome. yes the layers is isolated by the paper paste.
To get best result, you have to play with the secondary coil turns ( I got good result with 20 turns ).
The batteries are NI-MH.

Hi the wires used for primary and secondary are the same 30awg? or 20 awg for the primary and 20 awg for the secondary?
Thank you! :)

Pablo

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: sergeyman on February 18, 2022, 01:58:50 PM

I'm looking for a Joule Thief that can work after the battery is disconnected, anyone know such schematic?

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: forest on February 19, 2022, 03:25:26 PM

What is printed on ferrite core ? How is it marked?

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: forest on February 23, 2022, 12:10:18 PM

Is it still running ? I have found similar ferrite core and will start experimenting

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: forest on February 28, 2022, 10:36:22 AM

erfandl

Both winding are in the same direction ? I tried to simulate circuit in LTSpice and there is no output in such case. Strange

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: erfandl on March 01, 2022, 03:45:55 AM

Quote from: forest on February 28, 2022, 10:36:22 AM
erfandl

Both winding are in the same direction ? I tried to simulate circuit in LTSpice and there is no output in such case. Strange

yeah both are in the same direction. change wiring sides to get working.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: erfandl on March 14, 2022, 04:40:36 AM

New build with filament LED and ultra low power input.
Starting voltage: 3.722
voltage after 24 hours: 3.721

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: forest on March 14, 2022, 03:38:09 PM

is schematic the same or changed ?

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: tysb3 on December 11, 2022, 07:52:44 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRDftC9aFFg

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: seychelles on December 12, 2022, 03:43:33 AM

RUUUS RUUUS, NEITA CONPRENDESS, NEITA,

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 18, 2022, 06:46:51 AM

All of this JT experimental data, leads us to question
certain aspects of battery tech.

Such as energy density, and of course the mAH ratings.

With the first, proclaiming to be the physics of the internal materials
and the latter being run-time tests performed by the manufacturers.

In both cases, the JT proves these values to be incorrect.

To put that in perspective: our tests begin AFTER the mAH has been consumed.
and most of the energy depleted, leaving theoretically low density values.
Yet the amount of energy obtained over long term led operations
can greatly exceed the expected values for both the remaining energy density,
as well as the total mAH available from the battery.

are we not fully understanding the factors we use to calculate energy density of a battery?
Are we underestimating the mAH rating by faulty testing? (or testing using limited device sets)

Or is there something deeper to be understood here?

I'm often left pondering the state of induction during the transistors 'off' time.
This is not often considered, because with the transistor 'off', the led is not being lit.
However, we know induction must be occurring, for the voltage to step up
enough to switch the transistor 'on'.

Is it possible, that the induction during the off-cycle is causing a 'reverse-charging' scenario?
I.e. - drawing negative from the negative side of the source, thus (series) amplifying the voltage?

Adding a 3rd coil to the core gives an additional power output.
Now: if this is used directly, it affects the brightness (current) through the LED.
We experience a dimming effect when power is drawn from the 3rd coil.

However, if blocking diodes are used, DC pulses can be drawn out without affecting the led.
So is it the using of the power? Or the using of the inducing field, that takes from the circuit?

I tend to lean towards the latter, especially in cases where the power drawn out through the
3rd coil exceeds the theoretical values remaining in the (mostly dead) battery.

Example: when we max out the JT : meaning add series LED's until the circuit cannot
light any additional series LEDs.
Using blocking diodes on the 3rd coil, we can further light many times the number of LED's
as additional output from the 3rd coil.

Without the diodes in place, drawing from the 3rd coil drains power through the entire circuit.

If we isolate each half of the output cycle, we find that this killing effect occurs during
the forward pulse. But the reverse pulse seems to amplify the current through the first
2 (center tapped) coils. This is during the 'off' cycle!!! (amplified field collapse?)

I think Bill is correct in that the way this circuit is taught in schools, as well as how it
is USED in devices such as LED lightbulbs, AC-DC USB transformers, or even the
camera flash circuits: is an improper analysis.

The numbers come out in the math: voltage, inductance, change in voltage, change in current.
and the resulting changes in reluctance and impedance.

However, this makes no sense from the perspective of analyzing the source (battery).
Taking the negative voltage (field collapse) as a series voltage source works out a little closer,
however is still significantly off enough to assume we do not have all the data.

Title: Re: Joule Thief
Post by: tysb3 on December 18, 2022, 04:29:56 PM

@ seychelles
replace bipolar transistor by mosfet and don't use ferrite ring. that's all about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vb1HcyIKAFg

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Solid States Devices => Joule Thief => Topic started by: Pirate88179 on November 20, 2008, 03:07:58 AM